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Happy Y2K ... the biggest non-event of all time!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Phones are still working, the power didn't go out, haven't seen any airliners plummet from the sky (yet) ... guess it sure was a non-event!
Anyway, Happy New Year!
Most importantly, the internet, my computer and this site are still up.
Well, happy new year, decade, century, and millenium.
Anon_e_mouse, you are nearly perfect to post it!
Happy new year to all SubTalkers!
Chaohwa
But....
You, anon_e_mouse, have the FIRST Subtalk post of the new year.
Two seconds past midnight.
Even out her in the boonies, all the fire sirens went off at midnight. Can't remember that happening any other year.
Happy new year to all!!! Everything went safe and sound!!!
Happy New Year to Sub & Bus Buffs & enjoy 2000. I have no problem with my computer & phone. So take care & be safe because there could be a shootout around the city.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
HAPPY 2000 TO EVERYBODY!
NOTHING
HAPPENED!!
We should have a scare this good every year!
Yeah, that's the best thing of all! Nothing happened!
Everyone was so sc*r^d tkl lk*&^#@%* 1oij3 (* iuH- 1hb3= IUNPIFV bOHBHJPB O{sshd-=m1;om3]l,sn=m 1[sn1 1 1323 n=jm =jm @2 728=-.,,.
I spoke to an MBTA operator tonight on the way home from First Night. Things were running so smoothly, the Green Line(at least), did NOT shut down between 11:55 and 12:10.
Happy. happy , happy to all. My son in Wash. D.C. called us at 12:30 to tell us he was betrothed! In a reverse switch his girlfriend proposed to him! Maybe they should take a ride on the Metro to celebrate!
Have a good year, everyone!
Chuck Greene
You were SCARED??????
Not in the least.
I don't give way to public hype. I ruined the new year for the rest of my family by proving the new millennium starts next year.
I return, we're having Christmas leftovers for New Years dinner instead of the ham I've asking for.
We toasted the new year with water, not champagne. Not because we don't have champagne, but because I don't like alcohol. I made up some story to give it meaning.
Not in the least.
I don't give way to public hype. I ruined the new year for the rest of my family by proving the new millennium starts next year.
I return, we're having Christmas leftovers for New Years dinner instead of the ham I've been asking for.
Happy New Year to all! I can hardly wait to rag on my brother-in-law who was seriously afraid that the world was going to shut down when the clock struck 12! He had his family load up on food, bottled water, etc.! He watched too many Y2K disaster movies!.......Too bad that Anon e mouse wasn't just 2 seconds quicker in posting the original message!
Hey, I punched the POST button the instant my computer (here at the office - I'm on Y2K duty) said 00:00:00 - the 2 seconds is the lag time for the post to be logged in, I guess!
All has gone smoothly here, as expected. In a few minutes I can go home and get another good day's sleep before coming back in for another overnight shift.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No problems in the financial system, or on the subway. But my wife still had to go in today, just in case. I feel sorry for the City Planner who had to sit in the bunker. I was and Grand Army Plaza, and the fireworks were great.
Raise a glass of warm, flat champagne to all the Cassandras on television and in the newspapers urging us to buy a week's worth of groceries and water in case the power went off and the infrastructure broke down. What a bunch of blathering idiots.
www.forgotten-ny.com
01/01/00
Well it looks like Anon_E_mouse is the first SubTalker to post in the new millennium. Congradulations, maybe you should print that post and frame it. I feel kinda good too, right about now some of those party animals are taking down the 1999 (old millennium) Subway Calendar and putting up the 2000 (new millennium)one. Then without shaving and having breakfast are plopping down in bed to sleep off their hangovers !!
As far as the GREAT MILLENNIUM SCARE of 1999, I too am amused of all those fools who stocked up on bottled water,canned goods etc. that would that would suffice for a nuclear attack rather than a bunch of computers going berserk!! On the news they even had videos of people going to home depot buying flashlights, gasoline generators and even camping (propane) stoves!! WHAT FOOLS !! This proves that the news media has a svengali type hold on peoples psyche who just can't excerize common sense. I purchased some millennium items but not what those fools purchased. I found out through Subway Steve about SEPTA's Millennium $2 Passes. I purchased them on line and received them a couple of days later. They're bigger than Metrocards and made of thick paper, good from 12/31/99 5PM to 01/01/00 5AM as well as regional rail. I bought them as collectibles for me and my friends. If SEPTA didn't sell them all maybe the gift shop will sell them off. Thanks Subway Steve!!
DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF THE TA SUSPENDED SUBWAY SERVICE BEFORE AND AFTER THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT ??
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY NEW MILLENIUM !!
AMEN Kevin! My cousin who works construction has been wanting to buy a generator for some time (for work), so I told him to wait until Feb or March, cause theres gonna be a whole bunch of them that people are going to trying to unload! Ya notice all the Y2K 'experts' are now trying to backtrack, saying that well, now we have to wait for a couple of months just to make sure,etc etc....If anything, the month or so should REALLY wake people up to show how COWARDLY and craven most of the politicians and bureaucrats truly are-they KNEW nothing was/is gonna happen, but, by God we're gonna show folks that we are doing our jobs, and act like the end of the world is coming ( and spend billions of out tax dollars doing it!)! Can you imagine LaGuardia acting like Rudy has the last month or so??? This business hunkering down in a bunker just for show is the INSANE!! Anyway-EVERYONE here have a Happy,Safe FUN, and Prosperous New Year!!!
[Raise a glass of warm, flat champagne to all the Cassandras on television and in the newspapers urging us to buy a week's worth of groceries and water in case the power went off and the infrastructure broke down. What a bunch of blathering idiots.]
Yeah, all that Y2K nonsense, it was so ... hey, what's that noise ... why are the neighbors shooting each other and why is that airliner crashing :-)
happy new year to all. everything still works (almost the answer machine broke a tape but i don't think it was y2k caused)
BMT Standard #2000 is the official subway car of the new millennium.
31K download.
Best to ALL !!!!
And an honorable mention should also go to R62A #2000, of the #3 Line "Years Of Our Lives" fleet!
Happy New Year to All and to All A Good Night! I'm tired.
Wayne
My PC made it- IRT (the first of my 3 pcs) survived. BMT will be tested later and IND is already compliant
Hope all subtalkers have pcs that are still alive.
Transit was interesting- cops in riot helmets- 7-8-10-12 per station!
seeing R trains all night, 2/3 trains express all night!
My PC survived also.
I had tested mine on Wed..( i.e. setting the calender ahead to 12/31 then seeing what happened the next morning!)
01/01/00
Not only did my PC survive (Hewlett-Packard 4455), but also my Toshiba VCR. This 10 year old model's clock made the change with no problem.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIUM !!
My 11 year, 3 (now 4) month old VCR (still as good as the new crap) doesn't even know the date, it just goes by the time and the day of week. I don't see any reason why VCRs would need to know the year.
01/01/00
Defy Reason,
Believe me, this particular model does have month,day,year in it's clock!
Bill Newkirk
Well, let's see...
Mytwo computers rolled over (I left them on), my girlfreind's new camcorder rolled, my digital camera rolled had to be reset (but I don't think it's Y2K related, because it does this whenever I take out the batteries), TV and VCR rolled. My parent's VCR did not roll, but then, it's still says 12:00. Mom's computer rolled, and my fridge, microwave, oven, and car still run.
The only problem was the clock-sync software I use could not contact the server tick.usno.navy.mil or tock.usno.navy.mil.
-Hank
The non-connect to usno.mavy.mil was because the friendly DOD shut down 97% of their servers due to Y2k/Terror hype.
Well, let's see...
Mytwo computers rolled over (I left them on), my girlfreind's new camcorder rolled, my digital camera rolled had to be reset (but I don't think it's Y2K related, because it does this whenever I take out the batteries), TV and VCR rolled. My parent's VCR did not roll, but then, it's still says 12:00. Mom's computer rolled, and my fridge, microwave, oven, and car still run.
The only problem was the clock-sync software I use could not contact the server tick.usno.navy.mil or tock.usno.navy.mil.
-Hank
I was going to light a candle at 5 minutes to midnight, but I forgot. At 12:30 or so, I realized that I forgot to light a candle just in case the power would go out. I figured that if anything, it would take 10 or 15 minutes to go off the grid if needed. The lights didn't even flicker. Nothing at all failed to function. I wasn't online at midnight, but decided to go online around 1 AM to see if everything was functioning. It was. All the Y2K scare seemed to be for nothing.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
My 11 year, 3 (now 4) month old VCR (still as good as the new crap) doesn't even know the date, it just goes by the time and the day of week. I don't see any reason why VCRs would need to know the year.
I bought the current VCR that I use in 1993. It has the year. I guess its to program something to be recorded wwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy down the road.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I still can't get mine to stop flashing 12:00!!!
Jeffrey Rosen: I still can't get mine to stop flashing 12:00!!!
There is a very simple solution for this problem. (I use it on my VCR). Get a piece of black electrical tape, and apply it over the flashing 12:00. It will cease to be a problem! :-)
Happy New Year,
BWB
I wasn't worried about any computers but for the last 3 years I was really worried about what my digital watch would do. Its amazing, it actually went to Saturday 1/1/00 !!!
BY the way, I hope all the computer technicians have learned their lesson and started thinking ahead before any other big calendar changes. I mean 9999 will be here before we know it and I hope the computer people can account for the extra digit. Lets start allowing for 5 places while we still have time!!!!
I had tested mine on Wed..( i.e. setting the calender ahead to 12/31 then seeing what happened the next morning!)
There was more to that test than most people think. If you set the date to 12/31/1999 at a few minutes before midnight, and it rolled over to 01/01/2000 with the day being Saturday, your PC was considered to be Y2K compliant. Some older PC's would roll over to 01/01/2000 with the day being Thursday. Those PC's were actually recognizing 1900. I conducted this test back in June. All my 'puters passed - the 350 MHz machine with a 10/98 BIOS, the 133 Mhz machine with a 6/97 BIOS, and even my old 25 Mhz 486 laptop with a 10/92 BIOS passed. I guess you would have to be running a 386 to have something non-compliant.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
My Brother tried out a Y2K test on his older PC and set the clock as 12/31 and guess what happened! The clock then read 01/01/2094!!!
Not Y2K compliant, in fact he had to buy a new computer since modifying it to be Y2K compliant would cost more than what the PC is worth.
Bill Newkirk
My Brother tried out a Y2K test on his older PC and set the clock as 12/31 and guess what happened! The clock then read 01/01/2094!!!
Not Y2K compliant, in fact he had to buy a new computer since modifying it to be Y2K compliant would cost more than what the PC is worth.
Bill Newkirk
All it needed was a new BIOS. They even sold boards with a BIOS on board to make computers Y2K compliant. To tell you the truth, if the computer wasn't Y2K compliant, it was time for an upgrade anyway. To me, an upgrade means a new processor, and usually a new motherboard to go with it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I didn't expect any Y2K problems at home. I was not disappointed. I have my doubts about my AS400 at work though. Oh well, Monday will tell. Happy Holidays to AllSteve
I was wondering if there would be 7th Ave. express service on New Year's Eve. It made sense, given all the people in Times Square.
IRT Composite Trailer #2000 built by the Jewett Car Company in 1904-05.
BRT Standard #2000 built by the American Car and Foundry Company in 1914.
NYCTA R-62A #2000 built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries in 1984-87.
How about you trolley dodgers out there, any others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
San Diego Trolley missed by one, they started their new batch of Siemens cars at 2001.
I believe Salt Lake City may have started their series at 2000.
IRT Composite Trailer #2000 built by the Jewett Car Company in 1904-05.
BRT Standard #2000 built by the American Car and Foundry Company in 1914.
NYCTA R-62A #2000 built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries in 1984-87.
How about you trolley dodgers out there, any others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
wasn't there an R-10 numbered 2000?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The R-10s were numbered 1803-1852 and 3000-3349 on delivery. 1803-1852 were subsequently renumbered 2950-2999 about 1970.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-10s were numbered 1803-1852 and 3000-3349 on delivery. 1803-1852 were subsequently renumbered 2950-2999 about 1970.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wasn't there anything numbered 2000 back then, besides the A/B's?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When the R-10's were delivered in 1948 the Composite Motors held down numbers 3000-3339 and the Composite Trailers numbers 2000-2159. There many gaps in the Composite roster by that time and they were on there way out. The last one ran in service on April 28,1950. The TA decided to overlap the numbers from 3000-3349 but couldn't go any higher because the Gibbs Hi-V's still held forth on the IRT. Also the 2000 series was property of the BRT/BMT Standards and they were not going anywhere either so they had to number 50 units into the 1800 series. Duplication of numbers was not uncommon after Unification and continued right up until the Q's were retired in October of 1969. They overlapped with the R-7A's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The BMT Standard Trailers (4000-4050) also duplicated numbers used by some of the Lo-V's. Nowadays it seems they take great pains to make sure car numbers don't overlap.
Wayne
Wayne: It was inevitable that there would be duplicate and even triplicate numbers in the roster after Unification. Both the IRT and BRT started numbering the el cars at 1. The BRT system ran up to 1499 with 1500 being used for the C's and 1600 for the Q's and QX's. There even where a few el cars in the 3200's from the New York and Sea Beach and the Brooklyn,Bath and West End. The IRT el cars ran up to 1812 and the cars that received MUDC retained the original numbers.
Interestingly both the IRT and BRT started the subway numbers at 2000. The IRT for the Composite Trailers and the BRT for the Standards. IRT subway numbers ran up to 5652 for the World's Fair cars and the R-12 continued right on from there. The BRT/BMT jumped from to 4000 for the BX trailers,6000 for the Triplexes and 7000 for the Multis and the renumbered Green Hornet and Multis. I believe this was done to avoid conflict with their surface car fleet. The IND of course ran from 100 to 1802 and the R-10's picked up from there.
The most interesting series has to be the low 8000's. It was used for the Bluebirds(the BMT ones),the second and fourth sections of the Zephyr and Green Hornet and more recently for the R-11's and the R-110A's. Prior to the R-33's the only cars in the 9000 series where the middle or third units of the GH and Zephyr.
Larry,RedbirdR33
DC Metro has cars for the next century (2000-2099).
Breda 2000 series is only from 2000 to 2075.
Chaohwa
OK, I did find one Y2K glitch. My pre-printed personalized checking deposit slips have the line:
Date_________________19____.
OK, I did find one Y2K glitch. My pre-printed personalized checking deposit slips have the line:
Date_________________19____.
Mine are Y2K compliant. They just have a line for the year. You write the whole year in. I use a rubber date stamp for checks, which is also Y2K compliant, right up to Dec. 31, 2002. then, I'll chuck it and get a new rubber stamp.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
My checks are compliant. Its just the deposit slips with the 19__. But when do I get to use a deposit slip anyway?
Who knows the BMT marker light code real well? What route is that car running on?
Myrtle Ave Line, Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St, both directions.
Y2K IS THE BIGGEST JOKE IN THE WORLD TODAY. ANYONE WHO FELT FOR IT IS A MORON. ABSOLUTELY NO TRANSIT SYSTEMS WERE AFFECTED BY THE Y2K NO EXISTING GLITCH AND I REMIND ALL OF YOU THAT MOST SYSTEMS ARE CONTROLLED BY RELAYS ANYWAY.
WHAT A JOKE.
I would say Brighton Express, which would be correct as far as it goes, but Brighton via Bridge would be more accurate. Theater specials, which operated local in Brooklyn, via Bridge and express in Manhattan, aos carried red-green.
When I was a kid, I used to hang out at the abandoned Matts' mansion property, south side of Albemarle and adjacent to the west side of the Brighton right-of-way. When the first northbound local came through with red-green markers, I knew the expresses were done for the day and the Daily News and Mirror would be at the newsstand at Church Ave.
Someone asked earlier if anybody rode the TSQ shuttle or saw the 2000-2001 on the 3. I rode both the TSQ shuttle and the 3 but did not see 2000-2001.
This is my first post of the New Year.
Even though the 21st Century and 3rd Millenium doesn't really begin until 2001, I won't be a party-pooper.
This is the year 2000, the year we've all been waiting for.
This is the year we all looked forward to and used as sort of a deadline, if you will (well, by the year 2000, bah bah bah) or (wow, man, Year 2000! That's like . . . the future, dude!)
Well, here it is. It's come and is here to stay for a year.
I enjoyed the occasion at the home of a Greek family here in Jersey, who is very close to my family (we're Armenian). We celebrated with traditional Greek food, music and hospitality, with a touch of Armenian here and there (the two cultures are quite similar in many areas, ESPECIALLY food and music!)
When the ball scored a touchdown (pull-eez ;-), some of us ran outside and shouted like maniacs (I think all that vodka started taking its toll).
Anyway, I just want to also say that I'm glad that the old IRT workhorses -- the Redbirds -- have made it this far and I hope we can get another year or two of service out of them before they are gone for good. At the true turn of the century/millenium, the R-142/A's will be running side-by-side with the Redbirds.
To all of us who love the Redbirds, such as myself, and who have special and fond memories associated with them, their retirement will certainly be solumn. But that's progress. We all know they can't be in passenger service forever. But don't worry too much about it.
I personally believe that that special and perfect vision of a perfect world that we individually hold in our minds (we all have different perfect worlds, of course) will come alive in the Next Life.
The 2nd Avenue subway, Brooklyn Streetcars, direct transit service to the Airports, subway service to Staten Island, LIRR service to Grand Central, or what have you -- these things, or whatever you vision as being perfect, will all be alive in the Next Life.
Happy New Year to All.
Dear Sir, Would you consider e-mailing me directly? viz. We are both Armenians and although the name Vartan is quite common, perhaps we might be kin. (our surname was changed circa 1820 from Vartanian when the Russians took over in Tiflis) Thank you, David Vartanoff
Forgot to mention this earlier: I was watching the news show 20/20 -- I think it was Thursday night -- and they were doing a piece on the bizarre life of actor Gary Coleman. Anyhow, they were discussing his love of trains and one short sequence had him being interviewed down at the Court St. platform of the Transit Museum. Only those who've been there would have known, but you got to see the wooden Manhattan elevated car behind Coleman. Another quick shot gave a view of the low-V.
Does anyone know when this was shot? It looked recent.
Doug aka BMTman
That interview is about 1 year old. Coleman is a very big railfan (forgive the pun). His hobby is collecting model trains. They showed his setup in his condo during that same 20/20 piece.
I feel sorry for the way he was screwed over. He's really a nice, level-headed guy. To be reduced to doing bit parts in "Kid Rock" music videos is truly sad.
I agree about Gary being a nice person. Gary used to work in a model railroad shop in Brea, California and I used to patronize that store a lot. He was always the necest person to talk model railroading with.
i dont care for gary coleman!! the NEGATIVE COMMENTS about black
people he said make me sick of him !!!!
all black people are no dammed good ???????????
when was the last time he looked at himself in the mirror??
last time i sawhim on TV he is a short black man !!!!
many persons visit the new york transit museum .....
dosent make him a nice person !!!!!!
mr gary needs to check his own SELF HATRED of himself and
his people !!!! i know some model railroaders hat are very evil persons !!!! you would think model railroading would
CALM SOME PERSONS DOWN AND MAKE THEM PEACEFUL .... BUT !!??!!...
..................oh well..... but i like railfan windows !!!!!
???????
When did Gary Coleman say things against black people? And if he did, I think he has alot of mis-directed pent-up anger against blacks because his parents -- being black -- ripped him off financially. Don't forget he actually had to take his parents to court and sue them for damages. So I don't believe he meant to make any sweeping ill-remarks against black people in general. I certainly don't recall him doing so.
And yes......I KNOW YOU LOVE RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doug aka BMTman
that's it, are there any DOCTORS on this board??!!??!? somebody needs to write this guy a new prescription for RITALIN!!!!!!!
.............oh well....but he likes RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!
01/01/00
Perhaps Gary Coleman does prefer the R-40 SLANTS railfan windows since they are long and are perfect for the kids !
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIUM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????I LIKE RAILFAN WINDOWS TOO!!!!
thats BULL--- mr newkirk!!! just because you like SLANT R -40s
doesent make GARY COLEMAN who self hates himself as a short black man who goes around making NEGATIVE SELF RACIST comments
like he did on the media out here in southern california
that his own black people DO ALL THE CRIME IN AMERICA !!!
(( last time i looked gary coleman ins black ))))
and how HE HATES ALL BLACK PEOPLE !!!!!!!.....????????? what??
im glad you like RAILFAN windows !!!!! ?
Everoyne like Railfan windows who posts here and all of us are aware you do as well. As for Gary Coleman, he has had a really crapy life and is already 31. I saw the report on 20/20 as well and never heard him say anything derogatory about Blacks.
Speaking of railfan windows, is there anyone old enough on the site to remember how lousy the railfan windows were in the old 900 series BU's?
I don't know how high they really were, but I was in my teens before I was tall enough to see out, even standing on tip-toe. The high window was unique to the 900's. The 600's, 700's, 1200's and 1300's had normal waist high windows.
Speaking of railfan windows, is there anyone old enough on the site to remember how lousy the railfan windows were in the old 900 series BU's?
I don't know how high they really were, but I was in my teens before I was tall enough to see out, even standing on tip-toe. The high window was unique to the 900's. The 600's, 700's, 1200's and 1300's had normal waist high windows.
The BU's were all gone before I had a chance to ride them. But, a "lousy" railfan window is better than "no" railfan window.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
especially those r 16 and r 17 type windows !!! REAL HIGH too high
for many children !!!
especially those r 16 and r 17 type windows !!! REAL HIGH too high
for many children !!!
But like I said, a lousy railfan window is better than no railfan window.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I guess that lousy is too strong a word, but when I was a boy, I was upset not being able to see out. It was a window that you had to literally grow into. A good example of how high the window was, is pictured on page 35 of "Brooklyn Elevated".
I guess that lousy is too strong a word, but when I was a boy, I was upset not being able to see out. It was a window that you had to literally grow into. A good example of how high the window was, is pictured on page 35 of "Brooklyn Elevated".
I remember as a small child, I was able to stand by a side door on an A/B or a D-Type and look out, but not on an R-1/9. Talk about high windows. Another high window was the railfan window on the 1938 WF IRT cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
But you never had to look out the side door windows on the R1-9's. They had some forward facing seats, some were even comfortable (the red cushion ones, not the cane ones) and the windows next to them even opened.
But you never had to look out the side door windows on the R1-9's. They had some forward facing seats, some were even comfortable (the red cushion ones, not the cane ones) and the windows next to them even opened.
There are instances, like when all the window seats are taken. I remember on the D-Train (early 1960's), when the train came out of the tunnel at Smith 9th St., and my father had to hold me up so I could see out the door window.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Ah! THOSE were the ones I remember not being able to reach -- those IRT 1938 cars! I knew there was one series I couldn't see out of, even on my toes, back in my youth.
And to think I had to ride them frequently on the Bronx Third Avenue line, I always welcomed the one or two Lo-V's that would wind up on the head end of a train now and then.
I couldn't see out those circular windows on the R16's until I was 10. Until then, the R30 and R42 on the J was a welcome sight.
When the R10s came out when I was 5-6 I could not see out of them either
Could it be when they put windows in at the storm door, it was not made for the passenger, but for crew to see thru the cars for security. Enough with rail fan windows already. I too love them when I ride any type of train head or tail end.
Could it be when they put windows in at the storm door, it was not made for the passenger, but for crew to see thru the cars for security. Enough with rail fan windows already. I too love them when I ride any type of train head or tail end.
You're probably right. Nothing is really designed for the passenger, if you really look at it. The so called railfan window was probably designed partly for the crew, and also so that the passdenger knows there is either another car ahead or not. Nothing was ever designed for the railfan. If it was, there would be no full-width cabs, they would still spur-cut the gears for that wonderful RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR type sound, seats would still be rattan, etc. Envision a modern air conditioned subway car with spur-cut bull and pinion gears and rattan seats.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Fabric seats are more comfortable.
Fabric seats are more comfortable.
I prefer soft leather myself :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
Yeah but vandals loved them!
Hence, horrible fiberglass replacement seats. Remember those comfortable ones on the R19's? How about the ones on the R-16's and those sloping door panels, an chiropratics dream!
Bill Newkirk
Yeah but vandals loved them!
Hence, horrible fiberglass replacement seats. Remember those comfortable ones on the R19's? How about the ones on the R-16's and those sloping door panels, an chiropratics dream!
Bill Newkirk
Who do you suppose the TA learned the fine art of torture from? The Nazis, the Soviets, the Chinese, the Japanese?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I heard those seats were real comfy before vandals forced the TA to remove them.
Today, the prize for most uncomfortable seats goes to the R40 (owwwww!). Honerable mention goes to those SKINNY seats on the R62.
I heard those seats were real comfy before vandals forced the TA to remove them.
They were. What graffiti was in the seventies, that's what seat slashing was in the fifties and sixties. The R-26/28 in 1959-1960 and the R-27/30 in 1960-1962 were the first cars delivered with fiberglass seats. The R-7/9's (some, not all), /R-10's, R-11's, R-12/14's, R-15's, R-16's, R-17's and R-21/22's got them in 1968. I remember riding an R-16 on the #14 Broadway-Canarsie line in 1964 with every seat in the entire car slashed. The seat surgeons not only slashed the seats, but ripped out all the upholstry, so that you were sitting on bare metal. I guess the TA felt it was fighting a losing battle replacing ripped seats, so they took them out in 1968.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The metal below should have been charged with third rail power, this way the vandals could have the honor of becoming the shortest path to ground.
What about the ceiling fans?
What about the ceiling fans?
Why not? I have central air at home, yet I have ceiling fans. They allow you to operate the air at a slightly higher temperature setting and still stay nice and cool. I wish they were R-9 fans, but they're not.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Depends on how your ducting and other obstacles (furniture, etc. at home, people in a subway car) are laid out. I also have ceiling fans in my North Carolina house but they are actually a detriment when the a/c is on - they effectively stop the airflow from passing that point, so hot spots develop elsewhere in the house.
On the other hand, run in reverse mode in the wintertime they help circulate the baseboard electric heat much more efficiently.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends on how your ducting and other obstacles (furniture, etc. at home, people in a subway car) are laid out. I also have ceiling fans in my North Carolina house but they are actually a detriment when the a/c is on - they effectively stop the airflow from passing that point, so hot spots develop elsewhere in the house.
On the other hand, run in reverse mode in the wintertime they help circulate the baseboard electric heat much more efficiently.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its always cooler with both on than with just the A/C. As for heat, it would have to be down in the 30's outside for me to even consider turning it on. I live in the Miami area. It is expected to reach the low 80's here today. Then again, its expected to reach 59 in NY. Hot spell for this time of year - January thaw.
As I post this - 10:20 PM - it's still nearly 70 in New Jersey. I came to work tonight (I've still got tonight and tomorrow night on Y2K duty) without a coat and wondering if I was overdressed in my flannel shirt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As I post this - 10:20 PM - it's still nearly 70 in New Jersey. I came to work tonight (I've still got tonight and tomorrow night on Y2K duty) without a coat and wondering if I was overdressed in my flannel shirt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's a big problem. First its cold, then its very warm, then it gets cold again. Then everyone wonders why they're sick! In a few days, it will probably be 30 again. I never knew it to be in the high 60's like that up north. That's spring or fall weather. I wonder if La Nin~a has anything to do with it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It just might. All I know is I'm not complaining! The less often the oil man has to come to my house the happier I am.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It just might. All I know is I'm not complaining! The less often the oil man has to come to my house the happier I am.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think you'll be enjoying that balmy weather for long. I doubt that this is going to be a winter without snow. Wait until that frigid air comes down from Canda. That's when I'll get high of 50's with low of 30's or 40's, which is what I'm waiting for. Then it will be time to put a spring jacket over my short-sleave shirt. Being a native New Yorker, 80's in January is a bit too warm. High of 65 would be just perfect. Right now, the whole country is experiencing warm weather. Chicago and Detroit have a high of 49 and 48, NYC has a high of 62, and Miami has a high of 81.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It was just another sh*tty day here in Paradise on Maui, Weather balmy, breezy at 10-15mph. High 82 low 76. No rain, Had air and ceiling fan on, it seems the fan helps move the aircon around,
IHe does not Ritilin, that will bring him some more. Maybe Thorazine to calm him down. I met Gary Coleman many times in LA when we both patronized Allied Trains when it was in Rancho Park(W LA) and not moved to Culver City, Nice Guy.
What you talking about Willis Willie?
LOL!
Could you tell from the picture if it was the car on loan from Branford, or one of the re-rebuilt 1400 BU's that served for many years as "Q's"?
I think it was the Branford car. And from Chris R.'s post it looks like the footage they used was something from an interview conducted last year.
On behalf of the Broadway Lines (N Q? R), HAPPY NEW YEAR!
N Broadway Express
01/01/00
HAPPY NEW YEAR (N) BROADWAY EXPRESS.
Let's make a new years resolution, the return of the (N) as the BROADWAY EXPRESS via the Manhattan Bridge.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIU!!
I have been patiently waiting for someone...anyone to report on "heypaul's" seed pods and whether they worked or not. Is MTA once again using all the old equipment or did the pods abort?
I had heard that he was quoted as saying he thought he had mixed up the pods and that it was possible that there would be 6,000 R1-9's rolling around the subways today.
Rumor has it that the BMT Standard seed pods sprouted in the IRT, causing massive tie-ups as they became stuck in the tunnels and could not reach the stations. Furthermore, all platform additions disappeared so only five-car trains could be used.
The seed pods intended for the N scale modelers sprouted on the IND while the HO pods were released on the BMT, causing major capacity problems on all lines except the G. The real worry now is what will happen when a modeler waters an IRT or IND pod and has a full-sized car suddenly appear on their dining room table.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully a bird (redbird, that is) flying south took one of those pods with him. I'd better go down to the Miami Metrorail tomorrow to see what's running on that. If its a Forney pulling a train of gate cars, I'll post the pics on SubTalk.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was watching all the festivities and heard about the tight security.
How were things at all the subway stations in the TSQ area, especially TS/42nd?
It would have been something if they had gone through so much to secure the area in other ways just for something to come via the subway.
And yes, I gave in to the hype(for now) with the first 2000-related handle change. Shame on me.
Yes there was Police Activity of here on the East Side of town. The Police Locked Every emergency Exit from Grand Central to 59 Street on the Uptown Express Track.
Saw this on the Brighton Line going to Manhattan around the Church Avenue Station. All 8 cars had this sign, dont know if it was a fluke or not, becasue it was picking up passangers. This is what the sign said:
C Bedford Park Boulevard
Bronx
Special
is this just a goof from the signs itself, or this was going to be a C or just a new year's blunder? anyone know, please let me know.
was it on the express or local tracks?
"Saw this on the Brighton Line going to Manhattan around the Church Avenue Station. All 8 cars had this sign, dont know if it was a fluke or not, becasue it was
picking up passangers. This is what the sign said:
C Bedford Park Boulevard
Bronx
Special
is this just a goof from the signs itself, or this was going to be a C or just a new year's blunder? anyone know, please let me know."
It was your imagination.
N Broadway Express
January's "Transit Transit" show, showed the new R142 subway cars inside and out. Car #7216 was used. They also took you on a tour of the "new" East 180 Street Shop in the Bronx where the cars will be repaired. The show can be seen every Sat. in Jan. at 3:30 PM on WNYE Channel 25 here in New York.
I just watched it.....awesome show!!!! -Nick
Any way to see it outside of the NYC area? I don't suppose there are quicktime or realvideo copies anywhere?
01/01/00
If you live in Nassau County, Long Island, Transit Transit is seen on Channel 80 (public access) on Wednesday nights at 8:00PM. That's on Cablevision Woodbury.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY MILLENNIU!!
You can see Transit Transit every thursday at 6pm on BCAT
(Brooklyn Community Access Television)
Click here for Transit Transit's
--Mike
I haven't said anything nasty about Transit Transit in a couple of months. Maybe that's what's been depressing me. I haven't seen the show since I gave up Cablevision so that I could spend more time annoying people on SubTalk. The upbeat quality of the show made me sick ( actually sicker ). Like they would show footage of a baseball game between two units of the MTA. I was hoping to see a fight, or maybe one of the producers of Transit Transit get hit by a line drive. What did I get instead--- what a great big happy family we are. I don't want to see people smiling, I want to see them as miserable as I feel most of the time. That's my idea of an entertaining program.
heypaul,
I don't know what is bothering you, but perhaps you should go seek some help....spending time annoying us is helping nobody, including yourself. -Nick
01/08/2000
heypaul,
Nothing could make me sicker than that Oct or Nov installment of a real NYCT bus driver helping to ice a cake that was supposed to resemble a bus. Even the look on his face said "gee I wish I was somewhere else". But that's my opinion, not factual This months Transit Transit installment does make up for that debacle with the R-142's and vintage film of AB's being worked on.
Perhaps you shouldn't seek any help because it's too expensive and you can save money by reconncting to you cable supplier and install the TV set in your R-98 cab! But don't invite Ed Norton over to watch Captain Video, we all know how that turned out !!
Bill Newkirk
....install the TV set in your R-98 cab!
These would be rather interesting traction motors with cabs.
I was riding around in Coney Island taking some pictures. The Carousel was running on Surf Avenue, and I noticed some interesting similarities to the subway. It was a two man operation, with one man collecting fares and bringing people to the ride. The owner, who I've seen there a long time, controlled the movement of the carousel with a speed control looking very much like the controller on a subway car. I took a picture of it, but I didn't ask the man about it. They were busy, and I didn't want to bother them. He also strapped kids onto the horses and fed rings into the ring puller. When he started the carousel he rang the bell twice, and when it ended he hit it the bell once. Standing there listening to the carousel music and watching the kids and teenagers ride the horses put me in a very dreamy nostalgic mood.
I include a sound clip of something that I recorded about 15 - 20 years ago in Coney Island.
I'm a big fan of carousel music myself. If there were no rock and roll (and they're not making it like they used to) I would listen to Sousa marches and carousel music.
I suspect that those carousels use something like a type R controller in them.
And, if you want carousel music, why not try to find an old Wurlitzer automatic band? :) Yes, they're expensive (a few grand I think), but you can find themm, and you can still get music for them too I think. If you've ever seen one up close, and seen the insides, they're quite interesting. And all pneumatic too. They pop up at collectible and antique auctions every now and then, though Wurlitzer's jukeboxes (and electronic organs - I like Hammonds better though) are much more common (hot models recently are the 50's vintage 1700 to 2400 series).
I remember about 20 years back I saw a album of Carousel Music. It even had the Carousel Waltz by Richard Rogers. Maybe it is still in print
As a collector-operator who owns 2-1800`s 2-2300s`s and several AMI`s(i-200 and Continental) and alot of Seeburgs (V-VL-201_K-200and 222)I can tell you why they are scarce and getting priced out of reason,European and Japanese dealers. They work the amjor trade and collectable`s hows such as Chicagoland and pay top dollar for machines as they stand and promptly pack them up for shipment to their home countries where they are curios of a sort.
It has always annoyed me that these people want pieces of American culture but not any of our problems.
How's this?
Couldn't hear it.
That's a great site. Sarge! Thanks!
http://www.mybonbon.com
Jeff: It's great and it brings back so many warm and pleasant memories of my trips to Coney Island in the late 40's and early 50's. How can we keep this on our website so I can play it any time I want? Great job? How did you get it to music on this website? A work of art.
Great, but not enough percussion. Sounds more like circus then Merry go round
That must be the B&B Carousel. It's pretty hard to come by carousels with all-mechanical organs like that one.
When I've taken my kids to Coney in recent years I've let them take extra rides at $2 each a pop out of guilt for all the times I've hung around that organ listening for free.
Visit the two sites below for all your carousel needs...
--Mike (married to a carousel lover)
Mike--- How does the Coney Island Carousel rate in the Carousel World? There is a dreamy, time has stood still quality about it. It looks like it hasn't been messed with in years, and it seems to be run in the spirit of old times. It doesn't seem too touristy, but more like an old friend. Somehow I have the feeling that the Prospect Park Carousel is more touristy.
My apologies for being slightly off (topic,that is),
but in a way it is a form of electric mass transit. As I pointed out last week, it even has a mass transit like controller...It sort of is like a spur line off the subway.
Believe it or not, I think I recall reading somewhere that the man who hand-carved the original horses for the Prospect Park and Coney Island Carousels was the father of that actor who played 'Harry Mudd' on the old 'Star Trek' TV series.
heypaul: I'll try and track down the source of the above info.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm transcribing for my wife who's the real carousel expert in the family. She says...
"The Coney Island Carousel is a *real* carousel. It's too bad that the area around it is so seedy because it's tough to bring young kids to it, which is sad because this makes it harder for the next generation to grow up with the same love of carousels that my and my parents' generation had. But it is a beautiful carousel with an authentic patina from years of kiddie-butts that can't be duplicated by any modern plastic. Like the Velveteen Rabbit, this carousel is alive."
--Jeanine (via Mike)
Its only as seedy as you think it is.
The more people who bring their children to it the less seedy it will be. I'm white, Jewish, from the suburbs of Long Island and I bring my 3 year old son to Coney Island several times a year, by subway no less!!!
Yeh Jeff but you are a cop with a piece and a badge.
Like Yankee Stadium, Coney is a pretty safe place to be in season, no matter what you think of the neighborhood. I can lock my bike up on Surf Ave. and ride the Cyclone a few times w/o benefit of either a piece or a badge... Right now it's pretty desolate, unless you have a thing for guard dogs snapping at you behind fences. The beach is still gorgeous, though.
maybe this has been posted before, but this site is cool:
http://www.sfmunicentral.com/
This is the system that crashed and burned on the first day running...
ANYONE out there go to the times square Y 2 K 2000
new years party at times square ?????
if you did HOW WAS THE TRANSIT SERVICE ????
was it easy to get there on subway or bus and get out of there ?????????
here in los angeles we had Y 2 K 2000 new year events but
i stayed home !!! the myth of public transit los angeles ca.!!
and who wants to have your car TOWED AWAY ?????
I was there. Left around 12:40. I was impressed with the service - much more than last year. There appeared to be a lot of extra service. The 'F' I got was express in queens and there were R trains running, which was kind of a weird combo to see at that hour.
wonderful !! seehow blessed you are there with a GOOD transit
system !!!! and 24 hours in most places !!!!
Now if we can get the sunshine and palm trees. You can keep Jack Nicholson.
nea.... jack nicholson you can have him ill send him to you
on federal express overnight !!!!!!!!!
the palm trees were imported to us from spain and east asia
& africa so they are not native to southern california.
nevada arizona new mexico texas etc....
BUT...... HOWEVER can you send us some of your beautiful.....
....... REDBIRDS .... ( i working condition ) ..............
wait a minute send the WHOLE RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM .. !!!
then move here enjoy the IMPORTED PALM TREES !! ......
make sure you are at the airport when jack nicholson arrives!
01/02/00
SEND THE WHOLE TRANSIT SYSTEM ???
Do you really want the R-68's ?
You mean send the cars with the railfan windows !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill Newkirk
>>>make sure you are at the airport when jack nicholson arrives! <<<
Actually, Jack was in Queens about a year ago and stopped in one of the local liquor stores in Jamaica and bought a few bottles. I have the pictures to prove it.
I was there.
I was one of the many cops who worked it although I was actually in the upper 50's on Eighth Av (Not too close to Times Sq) and didn't see the ball. But it was an RDO so I made some nice O/T which I needed.
I was there for 24 hours.. From Midnight on 12/31 to midnight on 1/1. I used metro north, however, they check tickets before you board on New Years Day to keep people from sneaking on, and I am so used to the conductor waking me up, I missed my stop. No south bound trains were running, and I was broke, so I had to stay at the Beacon Station for 2 hours until the first southbound train came.
As far as NYCTA, I had just about the best seat in the house, 1 block away from the ball, and I did not use the subway, but I noticed police were not even letting transit workers go from the Times Sq. station to the 49th st. station, they were pretty pissed, because the 49th station is right in the middle of TSQ.
However, after spending 24hours there, I have to say It was one of the best experiences in my life
Fred
Don't know about Times Square, but here in Chicago, we had huge New Year's Eve celebrations at Navy Pier and in Grant Park at the Buckingham Fountain. The events at the Pier were pretty much all day long, and you could hardly move with the crowds! On the other hand, the Grant Park celebration was strictly a laser show leading up to the countdown (which was projected with lasers onto the side of the Amoco Building), followed by a very good (and long -- nearly a half-hour) fireworks show. Since the only pre-midnight attractions were the laser show, piped-in music, and the TV cameras (until about a minute to midnight, the crowd was fairly quiet -- except when the television cameras were aimed at them!) there were few people in the park until about 11PM, then crowds started appearing.
As to transit, CTA was definitely on the ball. One cent fare from 8PM Friday to 6AM Saturday (they do that every New Year's, not just this year). Bus routes that operate from Navy Pier directly to the commuter train stations west of the Loop usually run only at weekday rush-hours but were operated all day Friday to bring people to and from the Pier. (Metra usually runs its last trains around midnight, but they added trains up to 2:30pm and publicized the heck out of it with fliers on the trains for the last month, so that suburbanites would know they could ride the trains home and wouldn't drive in.) Had no problem catching buses on State Street headed to the Pier (about 7PM) or on Michigan when I headed from the Pier to Grant Park about 11PM. As I left the Pier, I saw a long line of buses idling, ready to move the crowds once the Navy Pier firework show ended. The subway home was absolutely packed, far beyond even rush-hour crowding, because once the fireworks in the park ended, the crowd left almost at once and made a beeline for the nearest L and subway stations. With the penny fare, the station agents just threw the gates open and the crowd moved down to the platform without blockages at the turnstiles. And I was pleasantly surprised when I got back to my car at the Cumberland park-and-ride that they weren't charging parking fees that night! No advance notice of any kind, and the garage at Cumberland is operated by a private firm, not CTA.
I was in Philadelphia for the NYE business. Did a little railfanning on the Blue (Market-Frankford) line. I LOVE the new Adtranz cars, with their unobstructed railfan SEATS (better than Baltimore's). Do they have the same cars on the Orange (Broad) line?
Also, will they EVER renovate Berks station? It looks absolutely miserable.
Those Adtranz cars have a great railfan seat,great pickup (they make an NJT Arrow look slow), and great brakes. But I hate them otherwise.
The stupid door announcements, the non opening window in front, and oh yes, by far the worst horn of any railcar in existance. Sounds like a loose fan belt. And they make funny noises too :)
I *still* think the old Budds were better (and I'm not really a Budd person)
I think that WMATA takes the cake for the stupidest door annoucements that I have seen (or should I say, heard).
WHILE the doors open, there is a women who says, "Doors opening..." Then, when you prepare to leave the station: "Doors closing. Ding-dong." It is only after both warnings that the doors will start to close--which can get rather tedious when they have to keep trying to close them.
I liked the way it was done about ten years ago--just a simple chime before the doors closed. Provided the same functionality, but wasn't as annoying.
My two cents. :-) --BWB
I don't believe all of the cars make the "doors opening" announcements. They do all do the chime and "doors closing". I have heard the "doors opening", but not on all cars.
At least the doors-closing chime comes before the doors start to close, unlike Philly, where you don't hear anything until they're almost closed. Wow - how useful...
dont go to ATLANTA!!! the beeping will dive you mad !!!
opening and closingg of the doors """ BEPING"" !!!!!!!
Even worse: the station announcements in Atlanta. :-)
"The next station is FIVE POINTS STATION. FIVE POINTS STATION is the next stop. For FIVE POINTS STATION, exit at the next stop."
Honestly, though, I seldom get the chance to ride the subways (I live in Memphis), so I actually enjoy every aspect of the ride, including the noises. It is interesting the different methods the systems use.
You mean the Phillidelphia subway doesn't do the chime until the doors are already in motion? That is borderline on useless.
--BWB
01/02/00
Blame this all on being A.D.A compliant. This is for the visually handicapped.
Bill Newkirk
I don't mind DC Metro's "doors opening"/"doors closing" announcements.
At least all the cars have door chimes that match now - they all sound just like those here in NYC, even on the 4000 Bredas. They got rid of the "ping-pong" chime that the Bredas originally had - tinny and annoying. Now it's uniform - both Rohr and Breda cars have the same module in them.
One thing I DO like about DC, and those who work the system here in NYC will probably disagree with me is the attendant announces which side the doors open on at every station. A typical announcement in DC goes "Metro Center, doors open (or opening) on the left side, transfer for the Red Line on the upper level". The riders seem to have gotten used to this additional piece of information.
Wayne
One thing I DO like about DC, and those who work the system here in NYC will probably disagree with me is the attendant announces which side the doors open on at every station. A typical announcement in DC goes "Metro Center, doors open (or opening) on the left side, transfer for the Red Line on the upper level". The riders seem to have gotten used to this additional piece of information.
Wayne
that is standard procedure in Miami. The announcement is made before the train enters the station and goes "Doors will open on the center platform" for island stations or "Doors will open on the platform side" for side platform stations. The line is 2-track. There is no express or skip stop service, and the only transfers are to Trirail and the metromover. Trirail is not a free transfer, but Metromover is. Metrorail costs $1.25 and Metromover is 25¢.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Maybe Philly should add which side doors are opening to their already
long announcements, and have bells instead of "doors are opening, and "doors are closing"
Chuck Greene
On the Broad Street Subway and PATCO the chime is before the doors close, but not on the Market Frankford. The Almond Joys had not way of telling you when the doors close. The BSS has a lound double chime, and PATCO sounds like a soft telephone ring. But at least on the Market Frankford they don't open and close the doors a lot, at one station once. When the doors close they close, not so on the BSS.
In my previous post I ran thru the string of announcements. Is there a chime on the Adrantz cars, also? I forget if there is???
Chuck Greene
No. The doors start closing and then the message says "Doors are Closing."
Of course, that is literally correct, since they have already started. Otherwise they would have to say "Doors are about to close"
Personally, I think a chime would be better.
At least the Baltimore sbway cars still have only the two-tone chime. But in the 1980s, the chime was a weird banjo-like sound (plink-plunk)! That was changed later on to the "traditional" doorbell, similar to WMATA trains.
If you wish to be driven mad, ride the "subway" at the Atlanta Airport. The last tiem I was there waiting for a transferring flight, I rode the line from one end to the other. The voice on the announcement sounds like the evil computer from "Colossus - The Forbin Project". AAAACK.
ATL airport trains:
"Please hold on--the train is accelerating..."
My favorite door closing signal sound was on the R1-9's. When you heard the conductor betwee cars bop the control down you knew the doors will soon close. And that bopper was loud.
I liked the R44 chimes best on OEM and late SIRTOA. The doorchime followed by a five or six second delay followed by the door operators closing. By the way, Mr. R40, how did you upload the chime to the subway.org site a few months back? I remember the link being posted to the board directly during the musical madness discussions of certain R46 cars.
I liked that too. The original WMATA recording when it said "Please stand clear of the door" (leaving out the please if the doors had already closed and the operator was reopening them) seemed to get louder and more annoying as it was repeated (not a suprise considering where the GM at that time went after leaving WMATA). Richard White, our current GM, replaced the "Please stand clear of the doors" with a friendlier recording by the same person which I like alot.
Another thing. That is not true. The doors start to close after the first chime or else the trains would be at the stations all day. The cars in NYC are even crazier. The chime starts after the doors close making the chime almost unecessary.
Oh, do they? I haven't been in WashDC since the summer, so you're probably right. But I remember hearing the lady talking, then both tones, and THEN the doors closing.
So they have kept changing what she says? Our family lived in WashDC about a decade ago, and I don't think there was a voice. Just the chimes. And when we went over the summer, it was a simple, "Doors closing..." What all kind of messages have they used?
I think PATCO takes the cake here - keeping it simple with the ringing bell. Many people think it gets annoying but it sure serves its purpose.
Only "Please stand clear of the doors. Thank you." People complained and said it sounded rude so they changed it. The doors opening and doors closing has remained the same.
I agree with you, Brandon. I lived in DC from 1989 to 1994, and back then there was no ridiculous voice telling you the doors were closing -- the chime was enough! The first time I was back for a visit and rode the Metro after they put in the voice, I was appalled.
OTOH, the new subway cars here in Stockholm can sound like this:
(ding-ding-dong) Nästa station, Slussen. Byte för trafikanter mot Norsborg och Fruängen, samt Saltsjöbanan och bussar till Nacka och Värmdö. Tänk på avståndet mellan vagn och plattform när du stiger av.
WHEW! This is an automated announcement. Translation:
(ding-ding-dong) Next station, Slussen. Change for trains to Norsborg and Fruängen, as well as Saltsjöbanan and buses to Nacka and Värmdö. Watch the gap between the car and the platform when you leave the train.
Once or twice, I have actually heard T/Os working the older stock make similar announcements at the same station (except for the last sentence). You gotta respect that! The working timetables say the T/Os are *supposed* to say all this stuff, but very few actually do.
-- Tim
No, they run older Kawasaki cars on the Orange line. The Kawasakis are nice - very, very fast, and they are modern with door chimes, etc. The Orange line cars are wider, longer, and I think even have a different loading guage. They also have four-track express on the Orange line.
I believe Berks is scheduled to be renovated, similar to the rest of the northeast el.
No, they run older Kawasaki cars on the Orange line. The Kawasakis are nice - very, very fast, and they are modern with door chimes, etc. The Orange line cars are wider, longer, and I think even have a different loading guage. They also have four-track express on the Orange line.
I haven't been to Philly since the 1970's, but gauges don't change. The BSS uses 10' wide cars on the same gauge track as NY's. I don't know how wide the MFSE cars or the track gauge, but I believe it's narrower. The old Broad St. cars were similar in dimentions to the BMT Standards. Back in the 1970's, Philadelphia was a railfan's paradise. Old 67' cars with bull and pinion spur cut gears from the 1930's on the BSS. Almond Joy Budd cars from 1960 on the MFSE, PCC's, Trackless Trolleys, Bullet Cars on the Norristown Line. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Philadelphia was so nice!.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's why I love Philly!. You are right , the sound the old Broad St. cars made was wonderful. Oh, and the long announcements on the Adrantz MFSE cars....."56st St. Station, Doors are opening, Frankford train making all stops, doors are closing, next station 52nd st. for the 31 & the 52. ARggghhhhh. The only nice thing is the voice is of a woman. Sources say she rode the line the first week and she was a "knockout"... Love that railfan window!
Chuck Greene
Track gauge for the MFL is 5' 2 1/4"
Subway Steve's SEPTA Page
*sigh* I tried to get them to take the old Broad cars out for a spin,
but they aren't up to putting the many $1,000's of dollars into them
to get them back up to operating standards. I see the poor things
every day as my R3 passes through Fern Rock. What can you do, eh?
Berks, Huntingdon and Church, the three 'forgotten' stations, are going to be rehabbed in a single package that is now in design. Don't know what the construction schedule is.
Obviously there was thought to closing each of these stops but that is no longer being considered. It will be interesting to see if Church NB becomes more than the 'exit only' station that it currently is, with NB riders directed to the two bus routes on Frankford Ave (3 and 5).
Market is broad, and Broad is standard.
Can anyone explain this picture. It even looks like the train is in service.
I'm stumped ...
According to the caption on that picture, it was shot during a fantrip on Nov. 27th, 1976. The 'passengers' are your fellow railfans.
According to the caption on that picture, it was shot during a fantrip on Nov. 27th, 1976. The 'passengers' are your fellow railfans.
It was the ERA IRT 70th Anniversary Fan Trip which occurred on Sun. 10/27/1974. The trip used the Museum Lo-V and a train of R-36's, to denote the old and the new for the IRT's 70th Anniversay. We took these IRT trains all over the system, A-Division and B-Division.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
OK,that makes some sense. From the picture, it looked like the train was in service.
After seeing that picture I went to the page with all the pictures of that fan trip. There were a couple of pix of the "J" Line, Alabama Av & Sutphin Blvd. On all three pictures (57th, Alabama, & Sutphin) there didn't seem to be much of a gap between train & platform. The average gaps on the LIRR seem much bigger. Yet I thought that was the reason IRT cars can never run on BMT/IND. (Other than the red-light trippers)
The IRT cars are only 12" narrower than BMT/IND cars, so the gap would only be 6" wider than normal. Even at that, it would be about 4 times as large as the gap with a BMT/IND car (normally about 2-3"). While it's unlikely someone could fall through it, it still poses a significant hazzard for tripping, etc. That is the reason that the BMT used gate cars on the Myrtle and Lexingon Ave. lines well into the 1950s. The needed to operate both on old El lines which were restricted to the 9' wide cars, as well as on sections shared with 10' wide subway trains. The presence of conductors at each gate helped them watch passengers and remind them to 'watch the gap'.
-- Ed Sachs
Doesn't the "7" use the BMT tracks from Queensborough Plaza to get to the Coney Isand yards?
Sorry, strike my last post. I didn't realize it was the IND 57th Street station!!!
If it was an R33 at 57/7th, I wouldn't have thought it was weird, just another car being moved to the CI yard.
Hey Chris, if that one stumped you how 'bout the same car at Alabama Av??
Well, the white people on the station platform makes it undeniably a fantrip.
While I know its a fan trip there is a big transit bus garage right across the street from the Alabama Av station which could attract passengers of all races.
Perhaps in 1976. But today, even that wouldn't draw people of the caucasian persuasion to get off the J at Alabama Ave.
Actually Chris, if you go a couple of blocks away to the ENY LIRR station during the PM rush you would notice the riders to be predominately white.
Well yeah. If you look at all the people who transfer from one train to another at Bway/East NY, a sizeable portion are white. But if you look at the people who actually exit the station there, you'd be hard pressed to find any of my persuasion.
I got off the #3 at Junius and walked over to the "L" at Livonia. No problem. I will qualify it thus: a) it was 3:50PM on a weekday afternoon b) I was not alone. Did I see others of my ilk? No. Was I afraid? No.
Nice houses along that stretch - with trees and gardens, all well-maintained.
Wayne
Yes, that neighborhood looks much better than it did 10 years ago with the new houses. Much much better than high rise housing projects.
Thank you Ghris and Wayne for the complement of my neighborhood. Dont be a stranger now........
3TM
Thank you Chris and Wayne for the complement of my neighborhood. Dont be a stranger now........
3TM
Something odd...Where's the Identra antenna?
-Hank
01/02/00
"Something odd..Where's the identra antenna ?"
That's needed on the Flushing line only, (Flushing Expresses).
Bill Newkirk
Right, but why remove it for a fantrip? And where's the bracket?
Besides, Identra doesn't work anymore.
-Hank
Identra?? what was that???
Identra?? what was that???
It was that doughnut-shaped antenna on the front of the R-36's. Identra was a system that was only used on the Flushing Line. I think it had something to do with the signal system.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It was that doughnut-shaped antenna
Also known as a toilet seat.
--Mark
It was that doughnut-shaped antenna
Also known as a toilet seat.
--Mark
On this forum was the first time I heard of the Identra "doughnut" referred to as a "toilet seat". Was this official TA slang lingo?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/04/2000
Don't know about that. But the single seat on the BMT Standards opposite the motormans cab was also nicknamed the toilet seat.
Bill Newkirk
Don't know about that. But the single seat on the BMT Standards opposite the motormans cab was also nicknamed the toilet seat.
Bill Newkirk
I don't remember hearing that, but yes, it does resemble a toilet seat. Its just one seat alone.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What's an identra antenna?
01/03/00
The "Identra" antenna commonly nicknamed the "toilet seat" hangs on a bracket on the Flushing R-33/36 cars right by the motormans windshield. The Flushing Express used this antenna, after leaving Queensboro Plaza, the train would pass before a sensor which is aligned with the Identra antenna which automatically throws the switch for the Express track. I am not sure what happens next after the Express passes. I assume that the switch automatically lined for the locals. This system I believe worked in the opposite direction when the Express passed 33rd-Lowery. This would line the Express to merge with the local for the approach to Queensboro Plaza. Think of it as a silent towerman. I am not sure if it is still used today. Anything mistakes in my post, be free to correct me.
Bill Newkirk
I always wondered what those brackets were on the front of those Worlds Fair cars...thanks!
Although I've seen it close up several times as I occasionally get the "J" at Bway Junction after getting off the LIRR @ ENY I finally used the new crossover at Bway Junction yesterday changing from the "J" to the "L". It just didn't seem as convenient as the old cross under. It is definitely further, and you have a longer walk even to the Canarsie bound side. (Where you don't have to cross) Even though its not that much longer any increase is bad when you're running through a large crowd trying to make a train. They should have left well enough alone. (Unless it was for structural reasons)
As strange as this sounds, at about 11PM tonight, or rather last night, I entered the 6th Avenue 'L" Station. I was going to take the L train three stops home. As I peered down the tunnel to Eigth Avenue, I saw an unfamiliar car on the track. As it rolled into Sixth Avenue Station, it was most obviously different from the Slant R40's and R42's that are usually trudging up and down the Canarsie Line. I rode it all the way to Montrose Avenue to stare at the newer feature of the R68, eg the seats. Strange, huh? Could this be a new TA plan to replace the R40's with R68'S?
You should have written down the car numbers & counted the number of cars in the consist. Virtually all R68/68A are 4 car married units: 300' of 600'. It wouldn't work on the L.
I know it sounds strange...the only other R68 cars I have seen were on the N,R and B. Mr. Whitehorne, (Mr. Canarsie Line!) have you ever seen or heard of this (R68 on Canarsie Line)?????
I have seen naught but R40, R40M and R42 on the Canarsie Line in the last several years. There ARE still R68 which are NOT linked into four-car sets; I have seen these on the "D" as lately as December 11th. Perhaps this was a six-car set of one of these. How it got there is also a mystery - it would have to have traversed the entire Eastern Division to get to the "L" line. Still, I have no reason to disbelieve the observer.
Wayne
It could have been a test of some sort and not a revenue train.
He said he rode on it! It could have been 4 linked units + 2 Franklin singles, perhaps the Alsthom cars ("N" bunch).
I swear I saw a non-linked "D" on December 11th but I stand corrected - it was on my November 8th trip with Simon Billis we saw them. I looked at the wrong page in my notebook.
Bubbly? The sum total of all the spirits consumed by myself is -0-, which matches my BAC. 4 years 8 months and counting.
Wayne
I know I was tired, but I also know what I saw. Didn't look at any car but first. Damn, I wish I wrote down the car #'s!!!!
The full-width cabs on the A end would have been a dead giveaway. I'm curious about a couple of things:
1. Did that train make it through the twists and curves between Lorimer St. and DeKalb without sideswiping a tunnel wall?
2. Was it really huffing and puffing on the uphill run through the river tunnel? If the BMT standards struggled, and they would drop down to B below middle C, well....
Too bad you didn't have the camera with u at the time. Cause I really find it hard to believe L would get any R68/68A. Not that I wouldn't belive what u saw. L on the R68 is strange. As a subway rider I know that R68 are always used by the D N B(since 97) and now alos used on the Q and W and few on diamond Q.
It's a TWO-YEAR OLD POST...look at the date....
"posted by Matt Levine on Sun Jan 2 23:54:19 2000. "
N bunch? As in the N has different 68s from the rest of the system?
There are just 9 R-68s not linked into 4-car units. They are assigned to duty on the Franklin Shuttle only. There are no un-linked R-68s on the D line for about 1 month now. As for R-68s on the L line, I know of no test nor was any G.O. issued calling for their operation in the east. Perhaps a bit too much of the Millenium bubbly?
They didn't move the R-110B over to the L for some reason, did they? At 67 feet, we know they could fit on the Eastern Division.
Anything is possible, I suppose but the R-110B is assigned to 207th St. Moving the R-110B to the L line would mean either a G.O. or a change of fleet assignment. I likely would have heard about either - and I didn't.
Seriously, maybe I'm seeing things.
Steve, a question:
Even though the R110Bs are 67 feet, doesn't the placement of trucks keep them from running out in the east? I really don't understand why the designers of the R143 couldn't keep the 67 foot design.
-Stef
The two main reasons are more doors per train and so passengers can move between cars. Perhaps the design mistake in the 110's also prompted them to eliminate longer cars altogether.
I don't know either. 67' cars ran out east before the TA was the TA. The decision to go back to 60 foot cars was never clearly explained. The best I can think of is that it had to do with train length. 8 60-foot cars are 480 feet. If we went to 67' cars 6 cars would be 402' and 8 would be 536'. Running 7 car trains would have been too confusing and would have added costs because we'd need both 3-car and 4-car sets.
Truck placement could have something to do with it. The trucks on the BMT standards were, IIRC, 47 feet apart from their centerlines, which meant they were further away from the ends of the cars than trucks on other cars. Their couplers were on what amounted to be extension rods - kind of what my American Flyer Alco A units have on their front ends.
LOL, I was a little bit crazy that night, but I believe I did see R68's on the L.
Here's another thought: did you hear door chimes? None of the 60-footers currently running over there have them. I'll say this much: at least they're in tune on the R-68s.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Haven't touched base with you for some time; glad to share a moment with the guy who gave me my nickname. How in hell do you know of the R68's on the Conarsie line? You live in Colorado. Is there some publication that keeps you abreast of the current workings of the NYC subway system, or do you have a pal in Gotham giving you the word. I'm always getting info late because I'm in California. Clue me in.
Check out the post at the beginning of this thread.
There are no R-68's on the R Line, where you coming from?
Dude, the post you're responding to is TWO YEARS OLD!!! Are we time-warping again???!!!
I think he has too much time on his hands to respond with one (useless) line to a post 2 years ago and done with.
I only figured out it was a 2-year post when I saw Defy Reason posting in the thread.
i would havee to take a look for myself if it is still around........
3TM
01/02/00
Does anybody know of any dispatchers on this line who may verify this?
Bill Newkirk
How would an even R-68 get to the L without anyone noticing? The only line the L connects to is the Nassau BMT and R-68's can't even run on that line(or was that problem fixed with the Willy B reconstruction?)!
Do they keep R-68's at ENY or even Canarsie Yards?
How would an R-68 even get to the L without anyone
noticing? The only line the L connects to is the
Nassau BMT and R-68's can't even run on that line(or
was that problem fixed with the Willy B
reconstruction?)!
Do they keep R-68's at ENY or even Canarsie Yards?
Yeah, it looks like it was fixed.
So why not put some 75 footers on the line some time in the future?
Wouldn't it be a nice surprise to find a train of R-68's rolling in Bway Junction(actually it wouldn't. Would you want to ride one of those through the S curve! I don't even want to think about that!)
I recall about 1980 or so seeing two trains of R-46s pass through Broadway-Myrtle on a clearance run (probably on a Sunday). They were deadheads and carried "E" signs, since that's where they were assigned then.
A motorman then told me that there were only 2 places 75 foot cars couldnt run on the BMT Eastern Div - the S curves on the WillyB (Sideswipe problems, but only with other 75'ers) and 2 tracks in ENY yard. Of course, I have no way of verifying this, but I can verify that 75 foot cars were once tested out there.
I also believe that the ERA ran a trip with the Bicentennial R-46s on or about 1976, and that it ran out on the Eastern Div. But that's a bit before my time as an active railfan so I'm not positive.
There was a picture of it as proof on this board a few months ago.
I was not tired, nor drunk, nor acting silly, BUT I DID RIDE THE R-110B on the L tonight, rather last night at about 9:00pm heading into Manhattan, it was only a 6 car set. I presume the same 6 car set that runs on the 1006 and the 1343 out of 168th on the C, THE ONLY SIX CAR SET, I don't know about and R68s, but THAT WAS PURE R-11B THAT I WAS ON TONIGHT AND SHE PERFORMED BEAUTIFULLY! Never got into Manhattan so fast from Canarsie!
Trevor
Well--- after a week of speculations here on SubTalk on the issue of Matt's seeing a URO (Unidentified Rolling Object) on the L--- it has taken our comrade from BusTalk to actually confirm the presence of the R110B as the mysterious train. My congratulations to Trevor for being out there and riding what many of us have just been speculating about.
Great scoop!!
Sixty-seven footers back on the Eastern Division for the first time in 31 years.
I wouldn't be surprised if the L becomes the R-110B's permanent home, pending the arrival of the R-143s a few years from now.
Well the R143 is due to arrive in 2001-2002 and this is not the first time that the R110Bs ran on the Eastern Division, I once caught the R-110Bs on the "Z" line, so its really not a oddity that I caught the R110Bs on the "L" Lines, just one hell of a surprise!
Trevor
The R110 on the "Z"? I don't want to sound like a know it all, but I doubt this. I know the J line, and had they run those cars right past my house, I'd have known.
Well being at 67 ft. per car, the L can definitely use the R110B's there. With its consist, those can definitely fit at the length of the station perfectly. I did not know that they had an L in its roll sign. Did the strip maps have the L route on it, and was the computerized announcements running on it?
How does an R68 equate with a R110B? Are you using taboid headlines to get people to read your posts???
Have you noticed the post you are replying to is a two and a half years old?
-Hank
Ouch! Hit me with the reverse key, didn't see the date tag. Thanks!
I work for Car Equipment, my records show R-110's were never in revenue service on the Eastern Division (J, L, M or Z). The R-110B's were only used there for clearence and power testing.
Now I have to go to Livonia to see if I catch a 110B AND a 142 in action!!!!!!!!
3TM
Are you postively sure? It had forward backwards seats? It sounds too warped to believe. Anyone got any pictures of this. Btw were the automatic annoucements working or was the C/R doing it manually. Were the strip maps setup correctly or did they have the "A" Strip Maps. Was the Train signed correctly as a "L" train.
just inquiring,
Adam
The post you are responding to is 2 and a 1/2 years old.
Peace,
ANDEE
What became of this?????
Were 68s or 110Bs running on the L in 2000????
This is interesting. Are you sure that R-68s ran on the Canarsie Line in 2000?
#3 West End Jeff
No, but I'm 100% sure they DIDN'T.
David
Even though I'm responding to a two-year-old post, it's completely impossible....first off, how would they get to the Canarsie Line?
The only way to get on that line would be if the R-68's came from Coney Island, to the Jamaica Line, which is completely impossible. Even if, and this is a BIG if, they came through the Chrystie St. connection, they would STILL have to use the Jamaica Line to get to Broadway Junction.
The Eastern Division CANNOT handle 75 foot cars...period.
Now, maybe this thread can die a peaceful death.
Some of these threads are like the Flying Dutchman, I swear to God.
Hopefully this thread will die a peaceful death, alnog with the idea that R-68s operated on the Canarsie Line.
#3 West End Jeff
If an R68 actually did operate on the Canarsie Line, I doubt it had a peaceful death (assuming it didn't make it all the way to Manhattan from Canarsie).
I read the original responses in which Trevor said he rode the "R68"s and said it was the 6 car set of R110Bs...
"The only way to get on that line would be if the R-68's came from Coney Island, to the Jamaica Line, which is completely impossible."
Or they could come in on the LIRR tracks, (might need a diesel to pull them but...)
Anyway that's *my* story, and I'm sticking to it.
Elias
if you guys think that was strange, I rode this consist home on Friday night on the N:
5056-5055-5053-5054-2502-2503-2501-2500
I rode 2502. I also thought that R68 and R68As do not work properly together. From what I saw there were no problems.
#2502 N Broadway Local
There is no prohibition about mixing R-68 and R-68A equipment in the same consist. The R-68As use WABCO brake equipment. whime the R-68 use NYAB. While Car Equipment Engineering never had concerns about the compatibility of both systems, they felt that the two did not have exactly the same operating characteristics and mixing the two would result in a less smooth ride.
However, Jamaica Shop used R-33 Phase I (WABCO) and R-32 Phase II (NYAB together in mixed consists with no problem. Therefore, I see no reason why any special flags should be raised due to the odd pairing.
Wasn't there an issue with running R-40Ms and R-42s overhauled by M-K and Coney Island in the same consist?
Hmm strange that in the R68-A set, the even numbered cars are higher
than the odds, I always thought it was the other way around in R-68/R68-A (and for that matter R-44 and R-46) consists.
In the R-44, R-46, and R-68 series, the series started with an even car, so the four-car sets are numbered even-odd-odd-even, with the odd car numbered one higher than the even car it's attached to -- example: 2500-2501-2503-2502. In the R-68A series, however, the series started with an odd car (5001), so things are a little different: the odd car is numbered one LOWER than the even car it's attached to -- example: 5002-5001-5003-5004.
One difference is that the R68 has an odd amount of cars (425) and the rest with an even number, so some R68's which are on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle have the odd number at 9 to make up the odd difference.
Correct -- and the 9 Franklin Avenue Shuttle cars are still single units, which is why I was careful in my description to say that I was referring to the FOUR-CAR UNITS.
David
i doubt it very much that it was an R68.those trains cant fit on the L line since they're 75 feet long.it must've been an R143 on its last trip of the day.an R68 on the L is really hard to believe
The R143's weren't around 2 years ago (where this thread came from). It seems like it was just a nonsense thread (like it is now), and a lot of threads lately have been.
Yeah, GP38...somebody's doin' 'the Time Warp' again. Besides the whole issue should be rendered moot since 75 foot cars couldn't negotiate the turns on the Canarsie Line...
After reading throught the old post, it looks like the original poster was on a R110B, he just called it an R68. Today that would sound bizarre, but since the original "time warped" post was from 2 years ago, it sounds like the answer.
I think we went over it, it was complete B.S. There are no R110B conductor boards for it to be in service.
So it was a total nonsense thread, even back then.
How did a poster who posted in the beginning of the year 2000 be posted on the site now? I see two sets of responses are made in that year, and the majority is made in 2002.
Did Dave bring this post from the archives for some reason or other?
Didn't we already discuss this?
Have you tried going into the Archives link on the Subtalk page (now part of Change Display Style & Search)?
Old maps of Bay Ridge, where I was born, show a railroad traveling in a general west to east direction approximately where 95th Street is now called the Bay Ridge and Lakeshore Railroad. Apparently it existed simultaneously with the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch 30 blocks to the north.
Does anyone know any more details about this railroad? What years was it in operation?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think that railroad was proposed but never built.
Kevin, your mentioning of this Bay Ridge west to east configured railroad rang a bell in my head. It sounded similar to something I read in Wm. Fausser's book on the old Canarsie Line. So, I pulled it off the bookself, and guess what I found? A hand drawn map showing the Brooklyn & Rockaway Beach RR with a planned connection to a railroad that was never built called the Bay Ridge and Seashore Railroad. I'd bet this is the same as Bay Ridge and Lakeshore RR. Fausser's drawing is dated 1873. The proposed Bay Ridge & Seashore -- apparently coming from the west -- would meet up with the B&RB just south of Flatlands Ave., with one arm turning north to run along the Canarsie Line toward East New York and another arm swinging south to allow travelers to head to the Canarsie shore.
This is probably the same proposed railroad.
Doug aka BMTman
I imagine it was planned but not built. No trace of any trackage or ROW exists in the area, and that's unusual...since most railroads leave their spoor long after they've departed the scene (cf. the Kissena Corridor), although the LIRR Whitestone Branch has been unrelentingly wiped out except for a bit of track where it met the PW Branch.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Seems now a days the city in general is in a down spiral. I read the post on FLushing and going out to the city on weekends I agree somewhat. You people say that the proplems are with asian youths.
I could see in the city mainly in the poor neighborhoods that the problems are social and cant be blamed on a specific group of people.
The NYPD is full of white corrupted cops. They take brides like back in the old days. Rudy dont give a shit because he most likly gats some of of the profits. Anyway the city is full of liberals and if you are some super conservative republican and cant face the changes of people, society or the fact that young people are getting richer then I advice you move to some small hillbilly white racist conservative town upstate. The city IS different and the problem from what I heard is too much white conserative talk and thinking.
Please resend your message. It came through hopelessly garbled.
And stop self-medicating yourself.
Another NYC public school grauduate struggling his way through the alphabet. Back to Creedmor for you.
Or perhaps a John Rocker wannabe?
"Seems now a days the city in general is in a down spiral. I read the post on FLushing and going out to the city on weekends I agree somewhat. You people say that the proplems are with asian youths.
I could see in the city mainly in the poor neighborhoods that the problems are social and cant be blamed on a specific group of people.
The NYPD is full of white corrupted cops. They take brides like back in the old days. Rudy dont give a shit because he most likly gats some of of the profits. Anyway the city is full of liberals and if you are some super conservative republican and cant face the changes of people, society or the fact that young people are getting richer then I advice you move to some small hillbilly white racist conservative town upstate. The city IS different and the problem from what I heard is too much white conserative talk and thinking."
I agree with this post from Greg. Thanks for bring this issue out on Subway Talk.
An Asian Youth.
"I agree with this post from Greg. Thanks for bring this issue out on Subway Talk.
An Asian Youth. "
You mean, Thanks for bringING, not Thanks for bring. Also we're on Sub Talk, not Subway talk. Apparently, Greg must've dictated this response for you to post.
Unless, of course, "An Asian Youth" isn't your real name!? Could that be you Greg? Multiple personalities and all of them lacking language skills? Ouch!
01/02/00
Great detective work Alan !!
Bill Newkirk
The city is not yet in a downward spiral, but I fear that some day it could be unless three grave problems are addressed ASAP - Medicaid spending, excess unionization, and rent control.
[The city is not yet in a downward spiral, but I fear that some day it could be unless three grave problems are addressed ASAP - Medicaid spending, excess unionization, and rent control.]
I hate to say it, but I think it will spiral again, once the national economy cools. We aren't keeping up with national growth--what will happen when we have a recession? And I doubt that the next mayor will have anything like Giuliani's toughness.
"The NYPD is full of white corrupted cops. They take brides like back in the old days."
Only the male cops take brides like in the old days. The females take grooms!!!
WHAT ABOUT GAY COPS WHAT DO THEY TAKE????
plungers!!!! :-o
While looking at the commuter railroad photo section, I came across a photo of an old New Haven electric locomotive that on first glance looked like a Chicago & South Shore Railroad Little Joe Electric! I know that this could not be, because the Little Joes were strictly D.C. powered, and the New Have lines were 11,000 volt A.C. only.
I looked through the second edition of the Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out about it, but could not find it. The photo was from the collection of Dave Pirmann, so if you are out there, give me some enlightenment. By the way, was the voltage and cycle change that was to have occurred on the North East Corridor lines finally happen? It was supposed to go from 11,000 volts, 25 cycles to 11,000 volts, 60 cycles. This change is what finally may have driven the GG-1 electrics from service and is the reason why I do not think that there will be any fan trips featuring them ever again.
Sounds like it may be an EP-5 Jet.
No, not an EP-5 "Jet". He's probably referring to the EF3's (150's)and EP4's (350's), which looked very much alike each other, AND had a very similar carbody to the South Shore "Little Joe" electrics.
They were painted in the old green/yellow schemes; none ever made it to the McGinnis red/white/black schemes.
The only New Haven RR electric locomotive that looked close to the South Shore "Little Joe's" were the EP-4's and EF-3's. There were six EP-4's numbered in the 0361-0366 which were built by GE in 1938. The EF-3's were 10 in number and were #'s 0150-0159 also built be GE in 1942. The EP-4's were passenger locomotives, equipped with Steam heat and 3rd rail shoes. The EF-3's were primarily freight loco's but were used sporadically in New Haven-Penn Sation trains over Hell Gate Bridge.All were gone by the mid-sixties, due to MacGuiness's desire to do away with electirc locomotives
/*All were gone by the mid-sixties, due to MacGuiness's desire to do away with electirc locomotives */
Which wasn't very sucessful (thankfully). Didn't he ultimately end up in jail a few years after being booted from the New Haven?
Actually, they DID de-wire Danbury (and a few others?), but rewired to somewhere else in with the old danbury wires. Interestingly, a lot of NH's equipement was rectifier at the time, and concievably they could have made a jump to 60hz operation (which would have likely saved them a LOT - Cos Cob never realy did do a good job at generating power).
Just because it's from my collection doesn't mean I have any more info about it than what was posted. I buy slide collections. It's possible the captions are wrong (or, on many of the slides in my collection, simply non-existant).
You're looking at an EP-4 if it's passenger, or EF-3 if it's frieght. Both were streamlined AC motors built around WWII, the EP-4 can also run on third rail. The EP-5 looks like two C-liners cut in half and stuck back to back, with a big box on top...
As for the NEC, the power belown NY Penn is, and always was, 11kv 25hz. Amtrak's been talking about going to 25kv for a few decades now. Above NY, it's 12.5kv 60hz, and on Metro-North, it's 12.5kv 60hz (converted 1983), but reaches as high as 15kv. NJT's Hoboken stuff is 25kv, as is the new Boston stuff.
The real reason the GG-1s were retired had nothing to do with voltage changes or PCBs (until recently, some metro-north trains had them, and lots of stationary transformers do too), but the fact their trucks were quite litterally falling apart by that time. Realize that all of them had a few milion miles of service, and salt, corrosion, snow, rain, dirt, etc, do take their toll. If anyone wanted to run a GG-1 again, they'd either need to find a set of trucks that weren't falling apart (fat chance), or cast new ones (fatter chance). Not to mention find all the electrical gear, pump out, clean, and probbly rewind the main transformer, etc, and do a heck of a lot of other work. not gonna happen, unless Bill Gates is a railfan...
Most, if not all, preserved GG-1s have had their main transformers removed due to concerns about the PCB's
Actually, it's been reported that Gates IS a railfan. On at least one occasion, maybe more, he's chartered some of Glen Monhart's equipment for rare-mileage vacation trips out west. Railfan carried a couple of photos a year or so ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, maybe he's an electric railfan too?
One could hope....
Isn t there still 1 GGI that has ben used on railfan trips somewher in Jersey?
There is one preserved but it is no longer operational. It's in sadly deteriorating shape, parked by the NJT shops in Hoboken.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could you imagine the possiblites?
If Bill Gates was running things he probably could automate systems with his computer knowledge and run the subways for a profit. (Does anyone know if PATCO ever ran at a profit)
Yeah, but then the MTA'd need to hire a guy full time to hit ctrl-alt-del everytime the computer crashed!
Yeah, but then the MTA'd need to hire a guy full time to hit ctrl-alt-del everytime the computer crashed!
A chimp can do that!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thanks for the insight on what kind of power is being used on the North East Corridor. How do the locomotives make the transition from 11kv, 25 hz to 12kv, 60 hz during a run from say Trenton to New Haven? I could never figure that one out. What was the catenary at Hoboken running at in the past? I heard that it was direct current, and when the change was made to AC, that was when the older type equipment was retired. Can the current equipment on the Hoboken lines make the interchange to the North East Corridor? These are some things that a railfan like me would like to know. Also, is there any chance that the NJT line to Bay Head Junction would get extended to Atlantic City? With the cash rolling in from the casinos, one would think that someone in Trenton would get the idea and look into it. I understand that the line made it as far south as Tom's River? Please correct me if I am wrong.
I, in one of my famous
drawing-on-maps-to-pass-the-time events, made a
fantasy line for the IRT. What do you think of this
one?
IRT 8, Lexington/East Side
local
Flatbush Ave, Bklyn to Bell Blvd, Queens via
Lexington Ave and Northern Blvd
New stations are:
(along Manhattan's 82nd Street)1st/2nd Aves
Roosevelt Island
(Queens via Broadway and Northern Blvd)21st St
31st St
Steinway St
(running under Queens Blvd IND)46th St
Northern Blvd
62nd St
74th St
83rd St
89th St
94th St
102nd St
108th St
114th St
Shea Stadium
Main St
Parsons Blvd
150th St
158th St
164th St
169th St
Utopia Pkwy
Francis Lewis Blvd
205th St
Bell Blvd
Two track subway the whole way.
It's fun to create the impossible.
Subway Steve's Homepage
hey I made up a G line extension from Court Sq along Northrn Blvd. Ive posted it here once before.......
3TM
How about extending it to Little Neck Pkwy the east most bus line connection in Queens?
That is exactly where my extension ended. I will post the list later.......
3TM
Too close to the "7"!
Too close to the "7" and the Port Washington Line. 3 lines just a few blocks from each other is a little too much when there's alot of areas with no lines!!
The same holds true in parts of Manhattan(subways under 6th, 7th and 8th Aves) but I guess it's actually needed there for obvious reasons.
Subway Steve's Homepage
I see that there will be no service from Franklin to Flatbush. What are they doing down there?
3TM
Did anyone else see the Redbird signed as a 1 train operating on New Year's Eve? I passed it as it was heading north at 168. It left me wondering what was going on or if I was seeing things ( was already kind of nervous, since it was my first trip down the road operating by myself).
Congradulations! I remember my first day. December of 1988, I had hit the road for my first time with a train of ceiling fanned R40s on the N line over the bridge. How time has gone by. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of marker lighted cars on the Broadway Local. I'd like to hear the complaints from the conductor and more likely, the dismayed passengers. I heard from a TSS that there was several trains parked on 4 track at Times Square as extra trains northbound from the shuttle. The crossover platform was removed to allow the putins from Grand Central to stop at 50th Street.
My first day was in September of 1988. My first day was on the No.2 Line and started out of Flatbush. That first run Uptown seemed like it taken forever to get to E 241 Street. I entered the stations so slow the people on the Platforms steped foward as I came in. Now ofcause when I come in they take a step back. But I mainly broke in on the No.4 Line. They alway gave me a job on that line. At least 4 out of the 5 Days. Now since I have some time under me I stick with the No.1,5,6 Lines. I don't think I'll pick on the No.2 Line again since theres too much in and out Jobs. Last pick I have a Saturday job over there that looked good on paper but in reality it wasn't that good.
There where lots of Redbirds running as GAP Trains Friday mostly from the No.2 Line.
Good luck on your Promotion thats a good way to start off the New Year. Maybe I'll see you around at Pelham Someday.
How do you tell a scheduled #2 from a gap train of redbirds?
-Hank
You can tell by the car Numbers or Black strips. Most of the Gap trains I noticed where from the No.2 Line. Also a GAP train is on stand by for when it is needed to pick up the big crowds in any major event. Like at Times SQ when the crowds picked up and there when too many people for the Scheduled trains to handle out comes the Gap train with 10 Empty cars to pick up the load.
Speaking of gap trains, an R26 (from a #5 gap train) got assaulted by youths with spray cans. It ran light northbound to the yard. It's always incredible how these things happen. What do you think? Were the folks were having a party on the train? A sign if stupidity, perhaps....
-Stef
That comes as no suprise. It may have been there idea of having fun. Its a shame in a way that people lose a train on the acount of a few Youths. On Saturday A Southbound No.2 Train was taking out of Service at Simpson Street do to Youths messing around with the Doors in the Last car. My guess is they either messed around gravity Latches and Torggle Swiches. The Conductor couldn't over come the problem so Control ordered the Train Out of Service. The Crew behind him which was a No.5 Out of Dyre was ordered to stop and stay at Freeman but keeped going and called control asking promision to Key by signals into Simpson Street even with Control Yelling over the Radio "You have a Train ahead you". I heard him on the radio still asking permision after the 10th time control told him No. But then Control Center did a very supid thing. They gave him promission to key by and put a door in the station to let people out. Anyone whos been to Simpson street Knows that can not be done since theres no room to play with.
At the north end of the southbound platform????? EEK! That's a spot even I don't go to - very little margin for error there. Blind, TIGHT curve round a building (with 10MPH speed limit) and BAM, you're in the station. What were they thinking?
Wayne
Yes that was a very bad move on there part. There Lucky there was no accident. As you know on the IRT at most stations you got no room to play with.
I saw it also. I was on the downtown 1 and passed it at 116 street at around 1:30 AM. I guess I was just one or two trains ahead of you.
Too bad I couldn't have been a passenger on your first run. Congratulations.
Chuck
I would have greeted that train with my usual "hello, Redbirds" greeting.
My first day was on the D out of Brighton Beach in May 1981 with an R32. I went north on the Concourse Express. I almost hit a homeball/timer south of 161 St. On the second trip up, I had a 6 car R42. Had low battery power. A few times I had to hit the bypass to get it going. I kept on hearing a weird buzzing sound by the motormans side door bypass button which stopped only when I pushed the button. Going back south, that train was my leader, the motorman called an RCI for the problem, it went out of service, ran lite to Coney Island and I had a double load of passengers.
Check out some abandoned trolley tracks in Ridgewood, Queens at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/ridgewood/ridgwd.html
Nice job Kevin (as usual). I grew up in Ridgewood in the 1950's and 1960's and I would often walk along those old trolley tracks. I'm surprized that they still haven't been torn up.
About a year or so ago I was in the area of Myrtle/Wykoff and noticed that some road construction had exposed some old tracks along Palmetto St. under the EL. If I can find the pictures that I took, I'll send them to you.
Is that a Peter Witt car in your bottom photo?
--Mark
It looks like a Peter Witt to me also. You can compare it to another photo of a Peter Witt at http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmny8361.html.
I taped yesterdays transit transit, wich has some great views of the R142. However, i can't connect my vcr to the computer. But if anyone else can, perhaps I can either mail you the video, or someone else can tape it when it airs next, and get some vidcaps for dave. -Nick
What is the schedule of this show? I can't find it, & would love to see it.
The schedule is on the MTA site, try www.lirr.org (I forget the ny.nyc.thingy). On Brooklyn Cablevison it is Thursdays at 6pm BCAT 65 I think (a BCAT Channel for sure).
Was it the December Transit Transit or January??
It is the January TT.
It can also be seen on UHF Channel 25 on Saturday's at 3:30 PM
I have an offer from someone in PA to make stills from the video. However, that will cause a delay since I have to ship out the video, and then let the person get to it. If someone in the NY area whp can make stills next time TT is aired, please speak now, or I will go ahead and send my tape to PA. Thanks! -Nick
Isn't what you're doing a copyright violation?
--Mark
I'm glad to see that the series continues. For some reason it got pulled from LI channel 80 Wednesday's at 8 PM (i.e. Nov. was last).
Mr t__:^)
Click here for Transit Transit's
--Mike
01/02/00
Today I was picking up some used Metrocards from subway readers. When I returned home and was filing them away I noticed variations on the TRANSIT CHEK Metrocard. They are as follows:
Lower left hand corner - Rewording of 1-800-METROCARD etc.
Lower right hand corner - www.transitcenter.com
Other than that, both cards are identical.
Bill Newkirk
There also seems to be two with the orig. wording ... one a bit more on the "bold" side then the other.
Mr t__:^)
There will be a new promo card out on 1/10/2000. I'll post the info later today.
I have a couple of sets of 1999 cards from the US Open Tennis tourna-
ment if any one is interested.
In case you folks don't know, the cards Aaron is talking about are very nice. They have decent size photos of four tennis stars. Apparently it wasn't a big issue quantity as I only have a couple of extra sets myself.
Mr t__:^)
this really made me sick !!! EXAMPLE !...........
our idiot mayor and city officials here plan Y2K 2000
new year celebrations all over LOS ANGELES COUNTY .......
one at the new LOS ANGELES STAPLES CENTER downtown L.A.
at the stroke of midnight with NO BUS & BLUE LINE RAIL......
************************* SHUT DOWN !!! ***************************
another example the HOLLYWOOD hollyweird sign is lit up with lites.
no fireworks in spite of the rain and cold .......................
** AND NO BUSES !!!**** all over the city all public transit
non operational shut down !!!!!!!! how about that :????
so those of us with cars etc... PARK AT YOUR OWN RISK AND PREY
THAT YOU ARE NOT TOWED AWAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE ???????????????
at least at times square you have subway rail what little pityful
rail and bus transportation we so called dont have here........
WAS NOT EVEN RUNNING !!! so guess waht ?? MOST PEOPLE STAYED
-----HOME !!!!! ( like i did ) and sobirety check lanes all
everywhere!!!!!! finally the mayor of los angeles DICK RIORDAN
PULLED OF HIS WORST DUD EVER!!!!!
the failed Y2K 2000 LOS ANGELES new year events !!!!!
AND.. there was a false bomb scare at the STAPLES CENTER !!
the myth of public transit here in los angeles is
************ WE AINT GOT NONE !!!!!!!!!!!! **************
like ATLANTA all transit stops at 1130 pm how do you serve the transit dependent polulation at new years Y 2 K 2000 celebrations here in lost angeles ????
Why not e-mail the LA Transit Authority, who might be in a position to act on your concerns instead of posting this here.
I tell you what !! ? count your blessings in new york city !!! E MAIL the mayor of lost angeles and the
"" COUNTERFIT"" M.T.A. los angeles lost transit syastem and you wont even get an answer !!!
however it is a transit related subject worldwide so for information plus i hoped others here notice west coast subtalkers and others also !!
AND SO .. i threw this out there no transit service for los angeles hollyweird R 2 K 2000 non celebration that
NOBODY CAME TO !!! thank you very much for your response !!! .....................
we should have had new years celebrations at dodger stadium
the los angeles collseum anahiem stadium grifith park
AND RUNNING PUBLIC TRANSIT PAST 2 am
lost angeles Y 2 K 2000 dud celebrations ?? not a chance !!!!
solution to the myth # 3 THE AUTOMOBILE !!!!!!
01/02/00
While riding the #7 approaching Queensboro Plaza I notice some BiLevels in Yard A adjacent to Sunnyside. There were quite a few of them there. Where they the C-1 original Bi Levels which are now retired? I could see the numbers to verify this. Also on the other side of the yard was one of those ex- B&M coaches (#7500 series) silver with blue stripe.
On the Montauk division approaching the flyover while passing Hillside Facility, I noticed cab car #5001 on the side of the building by itself. There seemed to be white graffitti on the lower windows but none on the stainless steel. Perhaps the graffitti was removed from the stainless steel but unable to from the windows.
I heard from a good source that DE-30 #404 is not running. Has anybody seen it? I was told that the LIRR messed around with it and the voided the warranty. Also the retrofit for the DE and DM 30's to change the horns is running about $120,000 per diesel/dual mode.
Also I was told that there was another fire in the NEW signal relay hut that replaced the one that burned up on 12/19 in Penn Station. Though minor, halon snuffed it out, signals were out for 2 hours on of all days, New Years Eve.
Bill Newkirk
What you saw were the C-3s awaiting warranty repairs. That was a temporary Kawasaki shed there and not an inflatable tennis court.
$120,000 sounds excessive for a modification to the horn. Seems that an air flow restriction is all that's needed.
/*$120,000 sounds excessive for a modification to the horn. Seems that an air flow restriction is all that's needed.*/
What the LIRR did was move the horns forward, and aim them a bit down, and give them a pneumatic valve, unlike the origional solinoid one. The nice thing is, you can't tell them from the dash 2's now.
I hope this lasts, though I tend to think the FRA will come in and screw things up. (the old, way too loud horns were supposedly there to meet some FRA requirement about the horn being 95db or louder - that's actually not far off from a jet taking off I think)
I've seen #5001 at Hillside Facility on December 26th. There does look to be some spray paint on the lower part of the side. Nothing compared to #9717 which now sits derelict further down the Holben Yard, alongside a building with three other wrecked/burned M-1s. They really gave her a paint job!
Another curiosity - there seem to be a few REALLY ancient coaches, one in yellow livery, one in maroon, out at Holben Yard. I wonder what kind of cars they were - LIRR passenger cars? They have rounded roofs, even at the ends. They're really ratty-looking. No doubt they're work cars of some kind.
Wayne
If they have round windows on the ends, they're MP-something. Otherwise, they came in from who knows where. I've seen a few cars like them around in various yards over the years. I think they're work cars...
01/02/00
Those rounded roof "work" cars are the ex- Boston & Maine steam heated coaches. Built 1935-37 by Pullman Standard. Their LIRR road numbers were in the #7500 series. Pulled exclusively by C-420's since they had the steam generators. retired by 1977.
Bill Newkirk
I wouldn't say they were pulled "exclusively" by C-420's.
These cars actually had the diesel engine/generators added, such as on the P72 (2901-2980 series) when they were rebuilt before entering LIRR service in 1959. I do not know why they were retired as early as they were other than their sheer age.
I rode in those ex-Boston & Maine coaches with Fairbanks-Morse
C-Liners on the head end in 1960-63. I also rode behind RS-3s in the ex-B&M coaches.
The cars were classed P74B on the LIRR, and were numbered 7521-7550.
There were also three from the Bangor & Aroostook. LIRR classed those as P74B1, and they were numbered 8551-8553. All three of those were bar cars; almost all the ex-B&M cars had become bar cars by the late 1960's.
01/03/2000
Steve Hoskins,
I stand corrected. What I meant to say was that they were pulled by the C-420's in their last years before retirement.
Bill Newkirk
OK, thanks for that bit of information. That clears up that little matter. Now, I have another question - what make of cars were the LIRR #74xx coaches, one of which (#7452 I think) mashed into the locomotive in a derailment near Pine Aire in 1971. What a wreck! Most of the damage was to the car underbody and vestibule. A photo showed a row of seats touching the blades of a (4-bladed GE) ceiling fan.
I'm still looking for the unit numbers from the 1950 Richmond Hill wreck. Both were MP-54 or MP-54A, with steam coach roofs. Weren't these the kind that had the unit numbers painted on the window glass near the end doors?
Wayne
Was that '71 crash the one where the LIRR dug a trench to bury the wrecked cars, then decided NOT to bury them, but to cut them up for scrap? I seem to remember some accident in the late 60's early 70's like that...
As for Richmond Hill, I think a few of the cars were also the traditional roofed ones. I guess you COULD always call up the LIRR and ask...
Yes, the accident occurred in February of 1971 (February 16, 1971 IIRC, give or take a few days). LI Press said (I was delivering it back then) they had dug a trench but later hauled the wreck of the first coach away by flat bed truck, don't know where to. The second coach was damaged at the vestibule end and on one side as well, not as badly as the first one. Some wise ass threw the switch leading into Pilgrim Siding and the train cannonballed into it, winding up every which way. That's a 90-degree curve onto that siding.
I'm not so sure about calling the LIRR regarding the RH wreck info -that's probably something they wouldn't want to discuss (serious black mark, no doubt). Some rail historian has the numbers, I'm sure.
One thing has my curiosity - Newsday's reprint of the accident account (this one I have) describes the Babylon train as being of recent (with respect to 1950) vintage, and the Hempstead train being older yet the photo clearly shows a traditional MP54 roof line and porthole windows on the rear of the first car of the Babylon train, which is all that's visible - the 12th car of the Hempstead train is wrapped neatly around it. The body shell was intact (except for the vestibule and end) but the interior is all scrunched up, you can see bits of it at the windows. Awful.
Wayne
Speaking of LIRR wrecks, in one of them a car was basically split down the center, so that most riders on the "wrong" side of the aisle suffered serious or even fatal injuries while most of those on the other side - just a few feet away - were completely uninjured. Was that Richmond Hill or Rockville Centre?
That was in Rockville Centre. It was discussed in this forum in either the spring or summer under the topic of "Gauntlet Tracks".
That was MP-54C #1819, wrecked at Rockville Centre in 1950.
Wayne
The cars you mention in the Pine Aire wreck were P-54's. There was one series of cars (P54E class) that were 452-461, and 455-456 were rebuilt in the LIRR modernization program in the 1950's so they were 7455 and 7456. (Any loco-hauled cars gained 7000 to their original number in that program....) There were many other P54 classes on the LIRR that could have been involved in that wreck too, but from what you mention, I suspect it was a generic "P54" train.
I have NEVER seen info that gave the actual car numbers involved in the Richmond Hill wreck. But your guess as to those cars having the numbers on the windows near the end doors is correct. At that time, LIRR control motors had a black panel painted on the left front and right rear windows, with white numbers and thin red stripes. In the mid-1950's, they started using the red number decals on the glass by themselves (same red decals as used on the middle of the lower car sides.)
Which yard is the Holben Yard?
01/03/00
Holban yard (name combines Hollis and St.Albans) is behind the Hillside Facility and usually has freight cars and maintenance of way equipment. This yard is seen after leaving St.Albans station heading for Jamaica, after passing the yard the ROW elevates and flies over the main line tracks.
Bill Newkirk
According to information I read in the Long Island-Sunrise Trail Chapter/NRHS "Semaphore" that $125,000 cost was for the entire fleet of 400/500 series diesels.
I figured it to be about $2,700 per unit, which seems a bit more reasonable.
DE-30 #404 is, from what I've heard, being striped for parts.
-- Kirk
In the last week, I have observed the bi-level prototype train with its' FL9's on either end laid up just east of the Richmond Hill Station. I drove into the Key Food parking lot on Lefferts Blvd. and it was laid up right on the other side of the fence, lights off in the coaches. Apparently, it is currently out of service.
01/02/00
It was discussed here for the past two days, but I spotted R-62A #2000 on a #3 train southbound at Times Square at 4:15PM today. R-62A #1962 was the northmotor. #2000 was about 3 or 4 cars from #1962.
Bill Newkirk
Those "Years Of Our Lives" cars...every time I see one I am reminded of events which occurred then, if I can remember any (hard to remember what happened between 1954 and 1959). 1962? I'm reminded of some of the popular songs of the year ("Sherry", "Don't Hang Up", "Monster Mash", "Patches", among many others), plus summer school (which was really kind of like a day play camp), and a bout with the measles in May of that year. AND my schoolmate Harry whose appetite got the better of him on February 8th that year. WHAT A MESS!
Wayne
ha!! ha!! does this still happen in ATLANTA GEORGIAS proud rail systems ?????
the marta subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in the winter !!!
they had to store them under the tunnels SO THEY COULD STAY WARM !!!!!! ???????
it seems that every winter the doors freeze themselves shut.....................
THIER CARS LOOK LIKE R68 HIPPOS !!! why dont the NYC cars doors freeze shut like ATALNTA???
sure glad i dont live there anymore !!!!!! dont miss it !!!!!!!!!
We don't miss you either.
WE WHO DON'T MISS WHO
EITHER ???? where ??? when??
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You used to live in Atlanta, and now you diss MARTA. When you move from LA, will you be dissing their system, too? After all, MARTA is a hell of a lot better than the LA MTA.
what is so better about atlanta ???
washington dc and san francisco
MUCH BETTER than ATLANTA
and L.A.
question have you ever rode on
the los angeles rail system??
why do MARTAS SUBWAY CARS DOOR FREEZE UP IN WINTER ???????
They probably freeze up for the same reason the doors did in Washington DC when I lived back there in 1981. They used to love to keep the trains nice and clean, and would run them through the wash racks whenever they returned to the yard at night. And the first couple times, nobody ever gave thought to the fact that the weather was going to be freezing in the wee hours of the next morning.
And I've heard of the same problem in New York City in the 1960's when I grew up there.
I'd sure hate to see what would happen if Los Angeles got freezing weather! I have to laugh my butt off, I drive a bus out here in the LA area, and the moment the temperature goes below 60 degrees, all the sissies on the bus have gloves and mittens on!!!!!
well !! i used to drive a bus out there in ATLANTA and i saw more "" SISSIES"" than even san francisco !!!
especially in about and around the MIDTOWN MARTA RAIL STATION !!!!
as you know if you live in the los angeles metro area the temps. go up during the daylight hours only and
down cool and cold and night .....
........ AND BURNING UP HEAT DURING THE DAY ....... so i would not call all california folks sissies etc....
because you cant ever tell what the weather is going to do here !! ( i live in pasadena )
we have had cold freezing weather out here !! a SNOWSTORM here would be ......
WORSE THAN A MAJOR EARTHQUAKE !!! i do agree with you there !!!
especially the type of snow that i experenced in DETROIT MICHIGAN !!!!! home of the people mover !!!!!
well!! why dont WASHINGTON DC trains doors stick shut in cold weather ???
and in NEW YORK even r 68 HIPPOS !!! and PHILADELPHIA BOSTON and oh yes CHICAGO ???
Doors on the CTA frequently fail in all seasons, but that's due to deferred maintenance, not ice.
in atlanta when i did live there 1983 - 1988 the train doors stuck shut unless they were stored ..........
UNDER THE WARM TUNNELS during the winter months only !!!! why is that ???
SO maybe they FIXED that problem since i left !!!! i hope so for those people who are stuck with it !!!!
i guess they fixed it 1998
How cold does it get in Atlanta, anwyay. In Philadelphia it is 60 degrees.
As I'm writing this, it's 65 degrees. Even when it's below freezing, I never have seen the doors freeze. I'm not saying it never happens, though.
Rob from Atl(anta)
i remember in 1984 I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO FREEZE TO DEATH ( excuse the large caps.... )
and sure enough the doors locked shut almost non operational
maybe they fixed the problem since 1998 but do you still use PAPER TRANSCARDS ????
Some question has been raised lately about the likelyhood of the Second Avenue Subway ever being built. The Second Avenue Subway was built but alas like the Thomas E Dewey Presidency all records of its location and accomplishments have been lost. There is more chance of finding a Ninth Avenue El Tunnel in the Bronx then of finding the subway on Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"If your subway service is phooey
Don't blame Wagner blame Dewey"
Michael J. Quill
Some question has been raised lately about the likelyhood of the Second Avenue Subway ever being built. The Second Avenue Subway was built but alas like the Thomas E Dewey Presidency all records of its location and accomplishments have been lost. There is more chance of finding a Ninth Avenue El Tunnel in the Bronx then of finding the subway on Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, the big question is Second Ave. in what city?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The exact location is not known despite diligent search by railfans. Its kind of like trying to find Jimmy Hoffa's grave in Giants Stadium. We all know he's buried there,but under which ten yard line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'd say whichever ten yard line the Giants' opposition is defending. It seems like Hoffa's ghost has singlehandedly prevented the Giants from actually scoring a touchdown this season.
Hoffa was from Detroit, so he must have been a Lions Fan
"Will the Second Avenue Subway ever be built?"
It's really hard to say-- to many people are involved.
N Broadway Express
I was told it was under the goal post
"Some question has been raised lately about the likelyhood of the Second Avenue Subway ever being built. The Second Avenue
Subway was built but alas like the Thomas E Dewey Presidency all records of its location and accomplishments have been lost.
There is more chance of finding a Ninth Avenue El Tunnel in the Bronx then of finding the subway on Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33"
The last I heard, it will be build from 125th Street Lexington Avenue to 63rd Street. Unfortunately, another study must be done before contruction proceeds.
N Broadway Express
(Another study must be done before construction proceeds)
The purpose of the study is to allow certain politicians to seem like Mass Transit heros on the cheap, while spending money elsewhere. Not to actually build anything.
After scoping out my de-unification plan, I've decided the only way the 2nd Avenue can be built is under a design, build, permit to operate for 49 years contract like the original subway, with a premium (express bus) price, and connections to the commuter rail system: ie the snobway.
[After scoping out my de-unification plan, I've decided the only way the 2nd Avenue can be built is under a design, build, permit to operate for 49 years contract like the original subway, with a premium (express bus) price, and connections to the commuter rail system: ie the snobway.]
Do you really think a premium price would be necessary? From what I can tell, a privately run high tech subway service in Manhattan would be extremely profitable, and if extended to less populous areas profitable, if as you propose the City paid for the construction and maintenance of the ROW. You're basically talking payments on the cost of buying and maintaining the cars and the cost of cleaning crews and station maintenance, since a contemporary subway doesn't really require much in the way of operational staff, and policing would be provided by the City as it is on roads.
You would need a spur from GCT to get the LIRR/MN people, as in the RPA's proposal. With comfortable, zoned superexpress service at 80 or even 120 mph and the massive underserved population of the Upper East Side, you could be talking a very popular service.
(Would you need a premimum price for a private 2nd Avenue.)
Yes, to help fund the construction. Ie. it would be intended to more than break even on an auto-equivalent basis at first, to make it more feasible and help cover debt service. After 30 or 40 years, when the contract runs out and the bonds are paid off, the price could be cut.
Would that dissuade passengers? If you had MILDLY better service -- ie. slighly faster, with more likelihood of getting a seat -- I'd bet plenty of snobs would take it just so they didn't have to ride with the rest of us on the subway.
[(Would you need a premimum price for a private 2nd Avenue.)
Yes, to help fund the construction. Ie. it would be intended to more than break even on an auto-equivalent basis at first, to make it more feasible and help cover debt service. After 30 or 40 years, when the contract runs out and the bonds are paid off, the price could be cut.
Would that dissuade passengers? If you had MILDLY better service -- ie. slighly faster, with more likelihood of getting a seat -- I'd bet plenty of snobs would take it just so they didn't have to ride with the rest of us on the subway.]
I'm not sure of the philosophy of that. While I believe that people should pay for what they actually use, that isn't true at all of the rest of the system--parts of it make money, parts of it lose, and the former subsidize the latter.
There are other problems with charging a snobway fare--for one thing, transfers would require an extra swipe of the card; for another, while much of the Upper East Side is rich, the people from above 96th Street aren't, nor are the people on the Lower East Side.
Another problem--it seems to me that if it's to have parity with cars, the ROW has to be paid for by the government, as roads are. That leaves operating expenses and equipment, but the off-the-cuff calculations I've done suggest that this wouldn't be a problem, because it would be in a heavily used corridor and sharply lower labor expenses would more than make up for the loss of subsidies. (That's true of the system as a whole, and because the area is so dense the economics of the 2nd Avenue portion would be better.)
Hello,
I just wanted to point out, if it wasn't already, that the line of track on the manhattanbound #7 between Queensboro Plaza and Courthouse Square now has 2 GT signals. This is something that I believe was necessary for the MTA to do. It makes things safer, just like they did to the opposite tracks a few years ago.
Based on what I saw looking out of front and center, the GT signals are located at the following locations: 15 MPH GT after the tight left-hand curve exiting the station, and 20 MPH GT which turns yellow upon entering Courthouse Square station.
I can't figure out though why there is that 20 MPH GT. Isn't the train clear of the curve by then?
Noooooooo! The only good line in the city!
On the No.6 Line there going crazy with GT Signals. The Runing Time was 54 Minutes from Pelham To Brooklyn Bridge Now its 58 Minutes.
I was wondering if anyone knows why Scott hasn't updated his site since October 4th. Is there no transit news? Usually he updates the photo of the month, at the very least. Plus I'm wondering if the type 8s are running again too. Perhaps some Bostonians can help out with this one. -Nick
I can answer the type 8 question. No, they are not running. They have been taken out of service for brake problems. Apparently I can stop an open car at Seashore on wet rails better than the type 8's can stop. There are also some on-going retrofitting(and other) problems that I think the T might FINALLY be taking Breda to task on.
Right on, Jeremy!
Just the other day I rode Type-7-1/2 3582/3622, the only Type-7s modified to run with the (now sidelined) Type-8s.
Scott Moore is often very busy with his job and the NET site is definitely his hobby. Be patient, the updates will come.
While I was trying to remember the car #'s on the r68's I saw on the Canarsie Line, I remembered another strange incident on the Canarsie Line. At the Morgan Avenue Station in Brooklyn, I was waiting for a Manhattan bound L. As the train approached, it made no attempt to stop: it went right past the station even though the platform was packed with passengers (this was November 12th, rush hour.) . What could have been the reason for this? Has this happened to anyone else?
Sometimes they skip those stations when there is a delay in service.
Delays sometimes necessitates a train to skip some stations to make up for a gap in service.
One of 3 things happened.
1) Did the train that passed you have customers? If it did, it could have been making a 'Battery Run'. This is where official; permission is given for a train to skip stops it would normally make. This is done to help get trains back onto their schedule after a delay.
2) If the train had no customers, it might have just been removed from service and was running light, either looking for assistance or to be sent to the maintenance shop.
3) The train was being transferred. This is least likely because of the location and the time of the incident.
Yes, it was full of passengers. I had just missesd another L train at the station (the two were about 70 seconds apart), si I think it was just running behind schedule.
This usually happens on the IRT number 6. Every so once in a while a train will be running behind schedule so in order to remain on schedule, the train gets permission to skip local stops. Usually it goes from 86 to 59, 59 to 42, 42 to 14, or 14 to Bklyn Bridge
Yes I taken many of those skips. In the Bronx they give you skips most of the time. Like 3Av followed my Hunts Point,Parkchester, and home to Pelham.
All last week there was elays on the 7Av line. My 3 train was forced to skip stops in Bklyn.......... One day it went express from Wall to Nevins.........
3TM
All last week there was delays on the 7Av line. My 3 train was forced to skip stops in Bklyn.......... One day it went express from Wall to Nevins.........
3TM
The Best skip I ever got was in my early years of being a Motorman on the No.5 Line. It was about 5PM and I was at 125 Street when Grand Central tower Informed me to skip 86 St and 59 Street. A nice super Express from 125 St to Grand Central.
Now that is something. Like racing against Metro North....
3TM
Yes that was a good Fast run with a R 33 Redbird before the speed Modifications
What's going on? I've been getting numerous reports of R33/36s running down the line with cracked LOCAL/EXP signs, and in some cases I believe they were missing. Is this someone's imagination or is it real? I'd like how this problem can be dealt with. Plus, if numerous cars are having the same incident happen, I can't help but wonder who would do it - kids, or somebody else with a purpose. I wonder how Corona Yard handles vandalism.
-Stef
I rode the 7 last night. I noticed the last car on a train at GCT had a broken-half missing local glass. As my train came in, instead of the green "LOCAL" i saw a light bulb. I decided to walk through all the cars and found on the 11 car train: 5 cracked "EXP", 1 missing "EXP" and 8 broken "LOCAL". I don't understand why this is happening. I also saw other trains like this. Psst.....Don't tell anyone on the 2/5 lines about this. LOL
Well I think too much of this is happening. It's not a mere coincidence that this is going on. Somebody has a motive for vandalizing the cars. What in the heck is going on over there?
-Stef
GRAFFITI VANDLES !..WHATS GOING ON? THE FUKING MTA
TOOK OUR TRAINS AWAY'AND WERE GOIN TO FUCKING TAKE
THEM BACK! AND THOSE MTA BITCHES CANT DO A THING!
WERE GOING TO CLAIM BACK TRACEY TOWERS YARD !
FUCK UP THE 2&5 LINE...DESTROY THE TRAINS ! WERE SICK OF
HITTING SCRAPS !.SO WHATS HAPPENING? WELL BUDDY THE TRAINS HAVE BEEN HIT SINCE THE 70'S...JUST NOT LATELY'
BUT THATS GOING TO CHANGE!
???????????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..............
HEY YO! DON'T SHOUT AT ME. HAVE A PROBLEM? TAKE IT TO SOMEBODY THAT CAN SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. OTHERWISE, DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING TO THIS POST.
the profane language !!! totally un-called for !! but dont worry we have the same problem here in LOS ANGELES
our buses are so GRAFFITI & WINDOWS SCRATCHED UP & VANDALIZED.......
that only the driver can see whats ahead ( they dont scratch up the drivers window )
now unfortunately the same is beginning to happen on our three RAIL LINES !!!!!
they got rid of the GRAFFITI only to now have to deal with these crazy people who insist on SCRATCHING
AND VANDALIZING AND DESTROYING WINDOWS !!! ( on bus and rail transit cars etc)........
my last visit to ATLANTA back in 1997 the windows are being SCRATCHED UP THERE TOO !!!
....................... WHAT A SHAME !!!!!!!!!...................................
"...that only the driver can see whats ahead ( they dont scratch up the drivers window )"
Interesting. That suggests, at least to me, that the scratchers are passengers doing their dirty work while the buses are in operation, rather than breaking into the bus barns or yards at night and scratching up the windows. When the driver is on the bus, the scratchers certainly can't damage his or her window, but they would have free rein to deface all windows on the bus, including the driver's window, if they were breaking in at night.
The only other way to explain it is that the scratchers realize that the bus would be taken out of service -- thus their "work" would not be seen by the public -- if the driver's window was scratched (driver's ability to see clearly) but that if only passenger windows are defaced, the bus will probably still be placed in service. But that is attributing more intelligence to scratchers than they could possibly have. (^:
eventually they will scratch up the drivers window !!!
its a matter of time !!
When you tag the trains and scratch the windows do YOU USE ALL CAPS there too?
What's your motivation? I'm curious.
Go to a message board where somebody cares about your meanngless existance ASSHOLE
N Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach: Sea Beach? Glad to meet your acquaintance brother. What gives with that filthy mouth jerk?
Someone should put some new colors in his paintbox and tell him that's no way to act unless you want to make a complete jackass out of yourself.
>>>Go to a message board where somebody cares about your meanngless existance<<<
Actually, since we got an actual subway graffiti defacer in here, I'd like to pick his brain and learn just what the graffiti gremlins hope to accomplish with their relentless urge to destroy.
www.forgotten-ny.com, which will never feature graffiti
Well you can always find where he lives and graffiti his House..and his personal being, tie him truss him like a turkey LOLOL...
I don't mind a few hell and damns; I use them myself, but the F word has no place on this website. It's classless and casts a bad reflection on a very classy group of people. Choose your words more carefully and try to get a handle on your anger or whatever it is that is bugging you. So cool it.
[the F word has no place on this website]
Oh give me a break. Sean writes a paragraph about how he graffitti's the trains and you respons with this?
You're like those mothers who complain about the naked breast in a movie about two kids who run around shooting their friends.
Hey Brighton Rider: If you're condoning what that jerk did or what he said, then we have more than one character on this website who needs a reality check-----and I don't mean me. A person using graffitti on a train is illegal for one thing, and the cursing on this website shows no class. PERIOD!!!!!!!
[Hey Brighton Rider: If you're condoning what that jerk did or what he said]
If you read my post more carefully you'd realize that I compared his graffittiing to a couple of kids shooting their friends and I compared your attack of his use of the f word instead of attacking his graffitti to a mother attacking the depiction of a naked breast in the same movie as two kids shooting their friends (instead of attacking the idea of two kids shooting their friends).
Why doesn't anyone ignore the publicists like this? If he wants to wreck trains in a post, let him. If he is caught by the police, then you can laugh at him. He can't spell, but he votes with a spray can. Therefore you guys have the edge. You are registered voters. Without an education, the scraps he will hit are handouts from the soup kitchen. That is unless the 2 and 5 actually layup at Tracy Towers.
And the dream of a Second Avenue Subway retreats even farther as long as the MTA has to expend effort and spend money to combat the criminal vandals that "sean" represents. I am sickened.
A translation of this somewhat ebonic post is in order.The Tracey towers that he/she/it speaks of are those two fortress-like buildings that overlook the end of the 4-jerome ave line.When they were built in the early 70`s they represented a last stand eefort a preserving middle-class housing in the Bedford Park section of the Bronx.By the accounts of friends and personal visits they have become a hell-hole,this poster`s reference to them is most telling.
[A translation of this somewhat ebonic post is in order]
You are a racist.
Oh,please forgive these racist remarks of one whose tax dollars have likely paid for the public-access computer this cretin has used to insult us with his presence.
My being a racist is doubtable..your being a fool is not.
The guy is from Canada. Unless you are also a Canadian, you did not pay.
The TA now has a toll free number to report any subway vandalism- 1-877-NYCT 555. Be alert and use it if you see any suspicious persons. However, they very rarely get caught since they have lookouts and do their acts when nobody is around. I also heard that there are graffitti web sites on the computer. Maybe this lowlife was looking for them and found out site by mistake! Also, he must be using someone elses computer- he can not spell, cannot distinguish small letters from capitals, and probably doesn't understand computers!
[Somebody has a motive for vandalizing the cars]
It's New Directions. It's so obvious.
It's these Flushing "gangs" that are causing such damage to the trains. Flushing is going to be the new "Brownsville/East New York" of Queens.
Probably just a bunch of rowdy school kids breaking the signs with some blunt object as they are crossing/riding between cars. So now when that car comes onto the head end....It is not like the TA has spare local/express signs sitting in some storeroom! In order to replace that vandalism, they would have to "steal" them from out of service cars. Face reality: the TA is just trying to do what they have to do to keep those soon to be scrapped cars running. I doubt if replacement of a local/express sign is a priority!
You'd be surprised to see what the TA has sitting around in some storeroom. When I hired on in 1986, it was not unusual to find R9 parts once in a while. I remember in 1993, Pitkin Yard was throwing pneumatic door engines in the dumpsters. Now it is even worse. The TA has to strip cars for spare parts to keep others in service. Local/Express glasses are probably a priority in part due to electrified lamp sockets behind them.
The poor condition of the Flushing line is definately in part due to
the poor condition of the Flushing area itself. Used to be bustling at rush hour. Last night got back before 7 and it already getting pretty dead. Chinese bookstore on Roosevelt avenue getting ready to close even though they are supposed to be open till 8pm.
The 7 train I was on was an express but most of the exterior signs were broken. We did manage to go pretty fast between Woodside and Corona though.
Little by little, I am beginning to notice more graffitti on trains and in stations. The graffitti remover used by the stations dept. cleaners doesn't remove the graffitti completely. The car cleaners have the same problem as the orange cleaner leaves some of the markings. Another problem is that trains are being laid up on express tracks and in tunnels where these vandals are able to attack them. Years ago, TA management stopped layups on the tracks and had all the cars go to the yards- why was this practice stopped? If controls aren't placed on where trains are laid up, we are going to have the same graffitti problems that we had in the 1980's. Where are the undercover cops? As a conductor, it makes me very upset to see this vandalism every day and knowing that nothing is being done to stop it.
Yes, it is cleaned up as best as possible, but this still costs the TA money- money that it should use to prevent these occurances!
01/03/00
One sure fire way of graffitti removal is lacquer applied very liberally on a rag. The trouble is the fumes are overpowering and very flammable. A car cleaner using it while smoking a cigarette would be in for a major accident. Since spray paint is already lacquer based, it usually comes off easily. The TA uses their citrus based chemical with steel wool usually scratching the surface yet not removing all of the graffitti. Also the unions would howl at the suggestion of the workers using lacquer thinner.
Bill Newkirk
! WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE WHAT YOUR STUPID SILVER TRAINS LOOK LIKE ! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE R16'S.THE GRAFFITI IS COMING 'IT'S THERE 'IT'S ALWAY'S BEEN THERE.HAVE YOU NOTICED? THE MTA CANT STOP IT
WRITER'S WILL ALWAYS HIT TRAINS..ESPICIALLY OLD
WRITERS FROM THE 70'S-80'S !
Lock the "writers" up and put them to work cleaning up their inane scribbles. if they're "Good" put them to work on mural projects for the city but the bottom line is LOCK THEM UP!!!!
When you deface the trains, do you use all caps then too?
Dumb Canuck.
Leaving graffiti on the trains is the equivalent of the "broken window" theory expounded by Bratton and others in the early 1990s. If you let the little problems go, it only encourages people to think they can get away with more serious crimes in the future.
This being a senatorial election year, a nice prominent story in the Times, News or Post followed up by a report (and video of a spray painted car) on one of the 6 p.m. newscasts would probably get a whole bunch of local officials to focus on the problem very quickly.
"! WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE WHAT YOUR STUPID SILVER TRAINS LOOK LIKE ! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE R16'S.THE GRAFFITI IS COMING 'IT'S THERE 'IT'S ALWAY'S BEEN THERE.HAVE YOU NOTICED? THE MTA CANT STOP IT
WRITER'S WILL ALWAYS HIT TRAINS..ESPICIALLY OLD
WRITERS FROM THE 70'S-80'S !"
Sean, scum like you should be gassed. I would love to have the personal pleasure of putting you out of your misery. You're a waste to humanity. I totally disagree that scum like you should be locked up. It costs too much to house you in prison, feed you and clothe you. You should be gassed and buried in Potter's Field.
All the writer should be jailed. That's what they do with scum like them in every other city in the world. If you don't mind riding on a train that looks like a filthy toilet, at least have some sensitivity for the people who are smart enough to give a damn!
Perhaps all sub talkers should come to your residence and spray paint the walls and scatch our initials into your windows and perhaps your car if you have one! Maybe we can even kick in several doors for you! or if you are really lucky we can put our foot through your walls.
*****of course not******
you wont like this! any society has to put restraints on citizens for the benefit of the whole. You have free speech but you cant go into a crowded theater and scream "fire", or hand a bank teller a note "give me your cash". In both cases police would deal with the person. If you want to paint ask Transit to let you adopt a station and paint over other people's graffitti! I'm sure transit will appreciate the free paint jobns!
Steel Wool Yegad, that stuff's obsolete Where I work we used to have this stuff called Citrol that we tagged as AGENT ORANGE use that chemical 40:1 with water on a Scotchbrite pad and you'll clean ANYTHING
The question is, how much is removing all the graffiti worth? Enough to equip workers assigned to clean it up with respirators so that they can use that lacquer to clean it without risking their health? This would mean money both for the respirators themselves and higher pay for the workers who would need to be trained in the proper procedure for their use. Given the choice of doing that, or cleaning it partially using current techniques and budgets, I think the MTA and the city will choose the latter. Probably rightly so - there are more important things to spend money on.
Yes I have seen it also. lately one out of my 3 trains a day I find Graffitti In my operating car. Like Saturday car 1660. Also On the signals I see fresh white Maker reading OPTO KILLS like the leaving Signal at Castle Hill Ave Northbound.
It's funny you mention this. I have been complaining about the level of graffitti between the station. What got me was the graffitti on the new wall between 36th St. and Queens Plaza, which occurred with workers on the scene doing a virtual 24/7. (I know that phrase was made obsolete, but I enjoy using it). Just this morning I saw graffitti on the tiles at 63rd Drive. I predice that in two years, (when Rudy is long gone), we will return to the 1970's as far as graffitti goes.
Tagging also seems to be on the rise in Flushing. I hope the MTA has a plan in place to deal with the renewed onslaught.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thank goodness we will never return to the complete graffiti-takeover of the system like the 1970's. Believe me, we might see a rise in tagging (as gangs continue to do most of this), but the days of full-subway car murals with windows painted over and such are not going to return.
Doug aka BMTman
"I predict that in two years, (when Rudy is long gone), we will return to the 1970's as far as graffitti goes."
As much as I really hate grafitti that would be a small price to pay to get rid of that @$$h_le!!!
I've got to disagree on that point. I will admit that the Mayor's heavy handed tactics anger many people, but you have to admit that he is effictive and gets the job done. A transit strike last month would have been devestating to the city's economy. If Koch or Dinkins had been mayor, they would have striked and would not have gotten a settlement any better than the one they did get.
I can understand why many people despise him, but when he became mayor, this city was totally out of control and a sense of normallacy has returned.
"I can understand why many people despise him, but when he became mayor, this city was totally out of control and a sense of normallacy has returned."
And not to mention that without a strong mayor (unlike the ones we have had in the past) this New Year's Eve would have lived up to all the forecasted horrors.
Funny how nobody is mentioning that it is because of the excellent work by Giuliani, Safir, the NYPD and NYFD that Times Square was not a scene of terrorism and the city did not riot as many (including myself) had feared.
In fact, just the opposite is true. It seems certain people (including members of the media) seem a little disappointed that Y2K was not a disaster. Then again, there are many people and companies who would stand to make a lot of money had it been a disaster.
The Mayor, Police and/or Fire Departments had little to do with keeping things from getting out of control at Times Square or anywhere else. Do you think if Two Million people started to riot at Times Square that the Mayor of those city agencies could have done anything to stop it?
There were no problems because the crowds that showed up were well-behaved and mature. You can't credit Rudy for people's behavior.
Doug aka BMTman
It's not so much that the Mayor or police could have done anything to stop a riot, but they could have taken actions to control and deal with the riots.
Riots in the past were handled by past leaders (which shall remian nameless) in a less than professional way. Letting people riot and plunder until they are worn out while allowing the police to simply "observe" the situation is not good leadership. I can't help but mention Crown Heights. A police force that can not deal with such a situation because of a lack of skills, equipment, or an abuse of "P.C." politics is a sign of poor leadership. This applies not only to NYC, but in other major cities.
Yes, thankfully, people all over the city were rather mature and well-behaved. But I can't help but think that an almost triple amount of police personnel presence, combined with the anti-terrorist measures, did help things.
"I can understand why many people despise him, but when he became mayor, this city was totally out of control and a sense of normallacy has returned."
And not to mention that without a strong mayor (unlike the ones we have had in the past) this New Year's Eve would have lived up to all the forecasted horrors.
Funny how nobody is mentioning that it is because of the excellent work by Giuliani, Safir, the NYPD and NYFD that Times Square was not a scene of terrorism and the city did not riot as many (including myself) had feared.
In fact, just the opposite is true. It seems certain people (including members of the media) seem a little disappointed that Y2K was not a disaster. Then again, there are many people and companies who would stand to make a lot of money had it been a disaster.
You are so right. When I heard that many executives feel they overpaid for Y2K protection that they wasted their money, I just shook my head. What we got is what we wanted. No problems in Times Square or anywhere else to speak and Y2K was a bust. It seems like money well spent to me.
The Mayor was in a no win situation. Had there been a disaster, he would have been critized for not doing enough, and since there was no disaster, he did too much. It's good that he does what he thinks is right and dosen't govern by polls like His and Her Slickness do.
Most of the new graffitti has been strategically placed by New Directions.
And obviously, too. I've seen 'Vote New Directions' grafitti in several places, like the north end of the northbound express track at 42st. I've seen is on cab walls, I've seen it on button boxes. It's just like on the buses, where the employees use marker to write 'Dave sucks ____' over the drivers area of buses at Yukon. Fortuneately, with the new Orions that have the black headliner, this is now gone.
-Hank
What responsibility to the transit riders have in stemming graffitti?
A few weeks ago I was on a Late Night D and the only other passengers in the car were a couple of teenagers. One of them whipped out a black paint marker and drew some weird symbol on the floor of the train. I was going to say something but decided against it for safety's sake. I guess I could have called the police later with a description but I just didn't want to get that involved.
I have just received a flier from the Ta that states that they have a toll free number to report subway vandalism to Transit's control center- 1-877-NYCT 555. I guess someone here from Transit's higher ranks must be reading these messages. The cardboard flier states that subway vandalism costs the TA hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. It also states that "with new subway cars arriving, vandals will have a field day if we don't stop them". I guess the TA realizes this problem, but is unsure how to address it. One way to eliminate some of the graffitti is to stop the practice of layovers in the tunnels and express tracks- park all unused trains in the yards where they are safer. Put more cameras in the stations. What happened to the undercover graffitti police? Maybe they left when the police dapartments were merged- reinstate them and place them in the areas where the most vandalism is occuring. The best idea is to clean up an entire train- new paint, new windows, seats, etc. Run this train daily, lay it up on express tracks- and keep it under survailance at all times- you will catchthese vandals very quickly. It's not entrapment although some civil liberatarians will protest as such
"Graffitti returning slowly"?!?!? HELLO!!!
In case no one has noticed it never left. Just because they give it a cutesy pie name like "scratchiti" so they can say that their rolling stock is Graffitti free doesn't change the fact that it is still graffitti and the trains still look like shit because of it!
Peace,
Andee
We made it onto the trains the first two days of 2000 thanks in large part to the mild weather and my wife's need to sleep in. My official first ride of 2000 was at roughly 1:00 p.m. from Ditmars to 57th on Slant 4369. (We passed up an R-32 that was leaving first so a certain height challenged individual could 'drive' the Slant.) As most of us are aware by now, everything is working just fine- or normal, anyway.
I'm delighted to report that in the futuristic-sounding year 2000:
-There's still one un-air conditioned car on each '7'.
-There are still R-26s on the '5' with the original square-paned 'school bus' windows.
-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard.
-There's still at least one wooden mezzanine and stairway, at Van Cortlandt terminal.
-There are still working grade crossings within the city limits, in Little Neck, Maspeth and Glendale.
-The LIRR still runs the 'old' diesels. Saw one running through Woodside this morning.
-At least one conductor announced connections to the IRT, IND and BMT.
-The elevator at 168th Street still shakes, quakes and vibrates.
-The coffee shop by my office still charges fifty cents a cup.
Remember all those sci-fi movies that had us driving flying cars around this time?
Just 363 days till the millenneum!
My First Subway Train of 2000 was Saturday Morning on the 9:43 Pelham and my first operateing car was 1700. On Friday on my last trip of 1999 I got to Dyre 35 Minutes Late with the road behind me and My last train of the year was a R 29 with the first two numbers 86 but can't remember the last two numbers. On the first trip I hade a mix of R26/28/29 AND on the second I had a R 33 9034.
It was unbelievable why the my train was so late. 3 Cops boarded my train and ordered everyone out of the First car and they had me crawl from 33 Street to 59 Street. Also they stoped my at every Emergency Exit and Sorage Room from Grand Central to 59 Street. They locked eveything. This totally mess up all the BronxBound No.4,5,6 Trains.
>>>-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard. <<<
Can you tell me what station, what line? This is a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>There are still working grade crossings within the city limits, in Little Neck, Maspeth and Glendale. <<<
And LIC
>>>-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard. <<<
Can you tell me what station, what line? This is a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
He probably means Rockaway Blvd. on the A (formerly the BMT Fulton St. El)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
-There's still one un-air conditioned car on each '7'.
Disgusting
-There are still R-26s on the '5' with the original square-paned 'school bus' windows.
DO NOT DARE to associate subway cars with those shitboxes masquerading as children's transport (those cheese colored vehicles aren't fitting to transport convincted felons let alone our world's future leaders).
-There's still a 1920s vintage "TO CITY" arrival indicator in the mezzanine at Rockaway Boulevard.
Does it work?
-The LIRR still runs the 'old' diesels. Saw one running through Woodside this morning.
Maybe one of these days I'll actually ride one before they're gone
-The elevator at 168th Street still shakes, quakes and vibrates.
I thought they were new.
-The coffee shop by my office still charges fifty cents a cup.
We know it ain't Starbucks!
Are there any plans to convert NYC to AC third rail operation. I know Boston's newer cars "swing both ways"...
AC propulsion does not use AC to transmit to the vehicle. Conventional DC is used, then the solid state equipment converts the DC to variable frequency AC. Brushless AC motors are used, with less rotating parts than DC motors.
Once all the motors are DC, would there be any advantage to changing the distribution system over to DC? Doesn't AC lose less power en-route?
AC won't work with a third rail
It'll work with two!
huh? you have a live conductor and a grounded one (the track). whether there is AC or DC potential on the third rail does not matter.
yes, but read my post about boston's plan for an eventual switch to AC third rail power. The inverters I used used DC as an intermediate stage, taking a constant voltage and frequency (in this case 110v 60Hz) and rectifying it to DC, then creating a voltage and variable frequency to drive a three phase AC motor (in this case 220V). My "guesstimation" is that Boston only uses the DC to output stages at this time, until the conversion.
AC power is much easier to distibute, and DC rectification equipment can be replaced by simple transformers.
So my question more clearly is:
Does NYC have plans to eventually distribute AC power on the thrid rails? - with equipment to match.
Dave,
All of Boston's 3rd rail (and overhead) is DC. The Red Line's Bombarier 1800-series cars convert the DC to AC to power its motors.
yes. this is part of an overall plan to convert the third rail distrobution to AC when all cars have solid-state inverter drive
It won't be done, because the cost of conversion (and the additional substations due to low-voltage AC losses) is not worth the savings. Plus you still need transformers at all the substations to reduce the distribution voltage to, say 600 VAC.
The savings in AC drive is the lack of resistance losses, plus the lack of brushes, commutators, and the like. AC brushless motors have none of this, plus the control systems give a smmoother acclelration than is possible with DC based (resisitance) control.
Some utility companies use a grounded neutral in their distribution systems, so any railway that uses the track in the return circuit (read streetcar, light rail and rapid transit, as well as electrified railroads) must also install an isolation transformer in their substations to isolate the nuetrals.
The savings in AC drive is the lack of resistance losses, plus the lack of brushes, commutators, and the like. AC brushless motors have none of this, plus the control systems give a smmoother acclelration than is possible with DC based (resisitance) control.
Ahhh - no resistor grids... I didn't realize that was true with AC. It makes sense, but I had only heard the smooth acceleration bit. I know resistor grids can be a big source of heat, so will this have any noticeable impact on subway temperature?
"so will this have any noticeable impact on subway temperature?"
The greatest source of heat in the subways does not come from the grids. It comes from the HVAC. There is also a tremendous amount of heat generated during the compression of air.
Substations already have transormers in them, why not use their secondary voltage (assuming its consistant) as the AC rail voltage? Rectifiers would not longer have to be maintained. The existing DC system uses an earth return without any problems at substations.
Quoted from this site:
"Calculations based upon contemplated schedules require for traction purposes and for heating and lighting cars, a maximum delivery of about 45,000 kilowatts at the third rail. Allowing for losses in the distributing cables, in transformers and converters, this implies a total generating capacity of approximately 50,000 kilowatts, "
This is a 10% loss, and I don't know if AC could make that figure better, but any way you look at it, that's a lot of power lost!
db
It would cost to much in the long run to change the distrubution system. Subway cars aren't the only things that uses the 600 volts from the 3rd rail, signals, lighting all have taps off the 3rd rail. Not to mention all the circut breakers are all DC type it would be to costly for the NYCTA to change.
Very very long buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Signals do not work off of 600 volts nor does the tunnel lighting. Both are AC which explains why when the 3rd rail power is pulled, signals and tunnel lights remain lit. For reference please see "Taking of Pelham 1 2 3"...
Sure it would cost money to change over, but how many people use AC anymore? Doesn't that mean that the TA is paying more for everything, because its custom? And doesn't DC require a bunch of power stations, whereas AC would not?
Transmision voltage needs to go though some type of conditioning to be used anyway
Transmission voltage is over 36000 volts distabution voltage is stepped down to 8,000 to 34,000 volts depending on where you are 12 - 15 kv systems are common.
The DC now does not need to go through the old rotory converters (A motor running a DC generator) but now uses solid state diodes to do the job.
The Cars with AC motors can pick up the 600 volt DC and the inverters make it usable as AC again in the motors.
A bit of a power loss but pretty efficient and I think still more efficient that the DC motors and controls, but I am getting out to the edges of my understanding on that.
When all of the cars are replaced with the new AC motors You could do a switch. of the third rail. But the third rail and rail common would be single phase and not as efficent to send as 3 phase AC either
I think follow-up posters have successfully identified the two
independent issues here: 1) AC traction, which means the use
of brushless 3-phase AC induction motors in place of the 100+ year
old system of DC brush motors and 2) AC power distribution.
Issue 1: AC traction uses solid-state drivers to power 3-phase
induction motors. The advantages are numerous: much less wasted
energy during acceleration as opposed to the DC and grid resistor
system, ability to do regenerative braking, and much better ability
to control torque at any given speed.
Issue 2: AC distribution of power has been used for about 100 years.
Edison was a proponent of DC power distribution and used a variety
of unscrupulous means to discredit his intellectual nemesis, Tesla,
who was the master of AC. However, in the long run, the advantages
of AC were understood. Specifically, loss of energy in transmissions
systems comes from the fact that wires are not perfect conductors.
Every wire has a certain resistance per length
Let's say you want to deliver 120 Volts at 100 Amps to a customer.
That's 120*.1= 12 kilowatts. For argument's sake, let's say
the wires between the power plant and the customer have a resistance
of 0.1 ohm. Then the power lost in the wires is I^2*R, or 1 kilowatt.
Now, AC has a property that DC doesn't; it can be stepped up and
down by transformers with fairly good efficiency. So, let's step
up the voltage by a factor of 10 to 1.2 kV, send that out of the
power plant, and then step it down to 120 very close to the customer.
So, to deliver the same 12 kW to the customer we only need 10 Amps
on the 1200 Volts side. The power lost to line resistance is
now only 10 Watts.
Still with me? We are slowly winding back to the subway, I promise.
OK, so AC power distribution allows us to send high power over long
distances without incurring heavy losses and/or resorting to huge,
heavy wires. On railroads such as Amtrak's NE corridor, the overhead
wire is high-voltage AC (e.g. 11.5 kV, 12.5 kV or 25 kV). This
obviates the need for closely-spaced substations as the power can
travel for miles and miles without significant loss. The high-
voltage is stepped down on each MU car or locomotive.
On the subway system, part of the power distribution is high-voltage
AC. Power travels from the generating plants (now part of the
city grid system) to substations as AC. 4,160 volts was once a
common voltage although I'm not sure what is in use now. At one
time motor-generators or rotary converters were used to mechanically
convert this high-voltage AC to 600 volts DC. Later transformers
and rectifiers (first mercury arc, now solid-state) were used
for the same purpose.
From the substations, the 600V, high-current electricity travels
in big nasty cables to minimize loss. That's OK, because the distance
from the substation to the point of use is fairly short...not
more than a mile.
Now, here's why converting to AC third rail makes little sense.
You can't step up the third rail voltage. The LIRR uses 750
with bigger insulators. I've heard of 1000V systems but I can't
cite an example. Much beyond that, though, you run into the simple
problem that you need a certain amount of room per volts, and that
applies to AC or DC. So, if you can't make any meangingful increase
in third rail voltage, you can't gain any efficiency there.
You could eliminate the rectification part of the substations, and
thus reduce maintenance costs (although those things rarely fail),
but on the other hand you'd have to replace all of those fat
high-speed circuit breakers, of which there are dozens per substation
zone, because they aren't gonna work with AC!
Finally, I have no reason to believe the new cars would even work
if subjected to an AC third rail. The type of drive in use
takes the 600 and ground and drives the three phase coils with
6 sets of transistors (probably GTOs) in what is called an
H-bridge. The frequency is varied to control torque and
acceleration. To do variable frequency conversion from an AC,
as opposed to DC input is very tough. Most systems take the AC
input and just rectify it and then use an H-bridge anyway. Regen
braking into an AC line is SUPER-nasty!
You're right about GTO's. On the Arrow III's it's GTO's and the power is varied wth frequency and amplitude as well. The good ol' thyristors.
Very well explained on the voltage transmission side Jeff. I think most anyone here ought to understand it.
There was a 1500V DC third rail line in Manchester, UK, but this was converted to trams for the Metrolink system.
Just to add a supplementary question, any thoughts as to which city in the world is served by the most different types of electric systems?
Very well said! BART in San Francisco is the system that runs on 1kV DC, and as I think of it, their insulators are a bit more substantial than those on the TA. Your point about the electrical hardware is well taken also.
For some reason, maybe because they operate on a much smaller scale, Boston has made it their plan to change to AC power, which is the motiviation for my question originally.
Dave,
I have lived in Boston for a long time, and followed transit closely here; I have heard nothing about a planned change to AC power. Could you share your source with us?
I lived in Allston from 88-99. When the newest red line cars were delivered, with AC _propulsion_, there was a blurb in the paper extolling the virtues of the new cars, and how they would in future be compatible with an AC third rail system.
I'm sorry I can't remember more, but hey, all those beerz can take a toll on the old noggin.
;-) Dave
Hmmmm... sounds like the paper got it wrong. Yes, the trend is towards AC traction (1800-series Red Line cars; Type-8 Green Line trolleys, etc.). But as was stated by others earlier in this thread, AC third rail isn't really an option for many reasons.
The media get it wrong? Yeah... it happens :0)
...and that's traffic and traction on the eights, plus or
minus two
I rode an R train of R32s today in which the first car had weird signage. One side said R (brown diamond) 4th ave. Nassau and the other side said 59th st. not 95th st.
The R operates R32s? I am assuming they were from the E.
My guess is the operator didn't bother finding the yellow circle 4 Avenue/Broadway/Queens Boulevard sign and the train had been on the late night shuttle the night before and the sign wasn't changed. The R goes from 59th to 95th late nights.
Yes, there ARE R32s on the "R", and there are also R46s on the "E". I've seen them both, as lately as December 26th. Two "R"s on December 11th were R32s, and we had one R46 "E" on our Queens Boulevard photo shoot.
Wayne
Nope. The R runs between 36 Street and 95 Street at late nights
The R train in question was between 49th st. and 14th union sq (manhattan). So, they do run occasionaly.
On occasion R-32’s have run on the R line. Just as on occasion you see R-46’s on the E.
And speaking of the E: As I type this, the E is operating on the R tracks from Queens Plaza to Whitehall Street. Maybe that is it?
A General Order. The F trains are "single-tracking" in the river tube between 23/Ely and Lex/53 all this week during the midnite hours. Because of this, they cannot handle the E trains as well, so they go to Whitehall.
The brown R is left over from the Chambers Street special days.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Per official Bulletin:
Early Show CBS-TV MetroCard will go on sale at 7am on 1/10/2000 at these stations (grouped to save space):
34-B,D,F,Q,N,R,1,2,3,9,A,C,E
14-4,5,6,L,N,R
Grand Central -4,5,6,7,S
59th/COlumbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
86-4,5,6
Fordham- 4,B,D
149/3av-2,5
East180-2,5
Bronx Park East-2,5
Westchester Square-6
Pelham Bay Park-6
96-1,2,3,9,B,C
103-1,9
225-,19
231-1,9
238-1,9
242-1,9
Jay Street-A,C,F
Borough Hall-2,3,4,5,M,N,R
Flatbush Ave-2,5
Utica-3,4
Kings Hwy-D,Q *ONLY*
Grand Army Plaza-2,3
Atlantic/Pacific-2,3,4,5,B,D,M,N,R
Queens Plaza- E,F,G,R*ONLY*
74/Roosevelt-E,F,G,R,7
82-7
90-7
Junction Blvd-7
Astoreia Blvd-7
Ditmars-7
Times Square- 1,2,3,7,9,A,C,E,S
47-50/Rockefeller Center-B,D,F,Q
161-4,D
Lawrence-M,N,R
DeKalb- D,M,N,Q,R *only*
86 BROOKLYN-R
95 BROOKLYN-R
Rockaway parkway-L
207-A
Metropolitan-M
181-A
175-A
145-A,B,C,D
135-B,C
The 4:19 PM from Penn Station to Port Jeff was a dual mode for the first time today, eliminating the need to change at Jamaica. The engines were #502 on the east end and #508 on the west end with 8 C-3's between the two.
I think what some people on this site do not accept that one can be pro-transit and still advocate change, even advocate reducing under-utilized services to free money for other things.
Today I was riding home next to a transit map, and noticed that Brooklyn West End and 4th Avenue service, in addition to running only once every 20 minutes, are just shuttles at night. So if you are anywhere away from the BMT Broadway Line, you have to wait up to 20 minutes, take a train, wait fo the N, wait up to 20 more minutes, then transfer to one of these shuttles (which I hope are well timed). That's service? The reality is that with so few riders, the TA has cut subway service to the point where it is just a ghost, or just PR.
Running the IRT as far as Downtown Brooklyn, the Hub, and Queensboro, with FREQUENT service and FREQUENT buses, with ONE change, would not only be cheaper, but better.
Ditch the discounts and bring back the token?
Metrocard is here to stay. The technology will only improve with time and the MTA sits on tons of cash from folks like me who keep about $75 on it but rarely use it. The sub-bus-hub idea isn't totally bad as long as the MTA actually has buses their to meet late-night commuters at 3:00am in the middle of winter. I'd run "F" trains down to Church Avenue late nights.
[Off-topic: Kensington being gentrified? I don't think it will ever spread as far south as my old block - Webster Avenue. I just can't picture a Starbucks on 18th Ave & McDonald Avenue.]
(Kensington being gentrified?)
Bunch of low grade yuppies like myself have bought houses south of Caton (teachers and accountants, not investment bankers and lawyers). Starbucks may take a while to come to 18th Ave, but Church Ave is a possibility. But the non-snob yuppies moving there now probably would prefer the mix of stores on Church to Starbucks. Its going to be a pretty interesting place there soon.
They could always bring back Garfields on Church and Flatbush Aves
>>>Bunch of low grade yuppies like myself have bought houses south of Caton<<<
Ever seen Kenmore and Albermarle Terraces on 21st Street? Beautiful urban oases near the old Flatbush Reformed and its cemetery. The surrounding area seems quite depressed though; remember this is the neighborhood of the infamous Korean boycott which demonstrated Dinkins' ineptitude or clandestine agreement with the 'boycotters.'...
Anyway I have a friend who is trying to purchase one of the homes on one of these culs de sac for years, and has never given up the dream despite the surrounding area.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I imagine that the trains are scheduled to arrive so you can make the connection. For example, the R would arrive at 1:03 on the express track, discharge, the B would pull in on the same track at 1:05, and the N would arrive at 1:03 on the local track, and leave at 1:06 or 1:07. This would cause a slight inconvienence for the customers on the N already but would be worth it. I think that at nights, the WE Shuttle should go to Pacific Street as a local so that B customers can go to the D and F without having to get on an N to get there. The 5 should be extended to 149 Street late at night as well so that it isn't necessary to take a 2 to get a late night 4 into Manhattan.
You have an extremely vivid imagination. In tried and true form (and from personal experience) the shuttles usually leave just before the train arrives.
-Hank
>>>In tried and true form (and from personal experience) the
shuttles usually leave just before the train arrives. <<<
Just as the local leaves the platform as the express is arriving, or the reverse.
We have subway professionals in the forum. Would one care to tell me why the local does not *always* wait for the express to discharge its transferrers?
Schedule keeping, conductor indifference, etc. It does happen.
Conductor indifference does seem to be big when there are no holding lights. When I was in NY over the holidays, I took a ride on the Franklin Ave shuttle. On the way back in to Prospect Park, there was a Q in the station. I had my bags with me(not alot though) since I was heading back to Penn Station to come home. The conductor on the Q closed the doors within seconds after the doors on the shuttle opened...it took the T/O a few seconds to get moving, so by that time I was able to walk across the platform and actually said "you know, you could have waited for us." He just shrugged his shoulders as the train pulled out...
Again, would any of the conductors in Subtalk care to explain the indifference? It wouldn't hurt to wait a couple of seconds for a transfer. Who knows when the next train will come?
Mngt. in the Towers & at Hdqrs doesn't care about "service", they care about "schedule". If the Conductor holds the train for a connection nobody in mngt says thank you, the reverse is the norm.
Mr t__:^)
Remember, this is the same agency that wanted conductors to skip the "please" as in "Please stand clear of the doors" to save an accumulation of seconds and improve scheduling.
The same logic can be applied to transfers. A few seconds here, a few seconds there, and the schedule is missed.
--Mark
Recenetly I've noticed a lot of "door slamming" as I call it at many cross platform transfer points. On my ride to work this morning, the conductor on the R train i was riding closed the doors in the faces of people at Roosevelt Ave Queens Plaza AND Pacific St. And he was running early (the train made Continental-Pacific in only 54 minutes, 5 min. ahead of schedule). I took the F home, and the same thing happened at Jay St., and Continental. I know the TA's Nazi-like policy about keeping to a schedule, but a couple of months ago both of those conductors would have kept the doors open the extra 20-30 seconds required to allow passangers to quickly transfer trains. What's up? I won't bring up the obvious reason, as I'm sure it's being contemplated by all as I speak ...
Number 1 during rush hours TA does not conductors waiting to make connections due to thr frequency of service.
Number 2 an unwritten rule with conductors is if the rear section is closed you continue closing down and proceed.
But both of these "rules" were regularly ignored until recent weeks. What's different now?
What if the other train is pulling in as you are ready to close the doors? When I was in NYC a few weeks ago, I was on the E heading to Penn Station from Lexington Avenue. At 7 Avenue, the B on the opposite platform closed its doors as we came in to the station. WHY NOT WAIT??? Now, anyone from Queens who took the E instead of waiting for the F hoping to make the cross plafrom connection to the B/D had to wait and WHO WANTS TO DO THAT UNLESS YOU CAN SEE INTO THE FUTURE AND KNOW SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THAT TRAIN BEFORE IT REACHES YOUR DESTANATION???
There was a time when the schedules had a lot of slop in them.
I recall that Continental to QP on the local was scheduled at
20 minutes but you could make it easily in 18, 17 if you had
a fast conductor. And depending on the ATD at QP, your 3 minutes
hot got taken back with "hold for time". So with that much
slop, it made sense to wait for connections.
Nowadays there is no rapid in RTO anymore. There are a lot of
new fixed sign restrictions, not as bad as the early 80s with
400+ red tags system-wide, but now that every cab has a speedometer
and you have supervision hiding behind columns with radar guns,
those restrictions are being followed literally for fear of getting
written up. Compounding that, when you do get to nice open track
with no timers or little yellow plate signs, the car equipment
is impotent.
With no real way to make up time and the pressure to keep to
the schedule, it is understandable that conductors are slamming
doors. The only thing that would fix that is an RTO bulletin
clarifying management's intent that connections be made during
non-peak hours (if that is indeed still their intent)
I can understand during peak service that in theory....there is another train right behind the connecting one...but why still do it during off peak times??
My other question involves what role some towers can play in some of these situations. Don't towers hold trains for connections(in some occasions at least) at places like W4th St, 59th St, Chambers??, Times Square??(IRT), Brooklyn Bridge, etc.). Are some of these same towers staffed during off-peak hours? Couldn't the tower operators(at least within their section of coverage) see that there is not another express train within site, and hold it??!!!
There is nothing more frustrating to board a local just north or south of an express station(name your stop, ANYWHERE on the system), go through all the local stops to the next express stop, and have an express just pull out...and you know there wasn't another express reasonably close back down the line...
There was better service by the tower operators when the tower was right there in the station. And they were able to concentrate on their job better. Now with all these master towers, the tower operator is away from the action, doing the job of several people vs. the old days, and just sees a bunch of red lights on the board. Since the advent of master towers, motormen have to call on the radio for lineups more than ever before. But the TA takes the capital money, and is able to cut down on the number of tower operators. And the public suffers with missed connections.
It brings back memories of Myrtle-Broadway.
The bulletin does exist and is periodically reissued. But it's still routinely ignored by "in a hurry" conductors who want to get held at the next gap station.
[I think what some people on this site do not accept that one can be pro-transit and still advocate change, even advocate reducing under-utilized services to free money for other things.]
I am concerned about the "slippery-slope" situation. Let's assume that the TA ends late-night service on an underutilized line such as the West End shuttle. Few people will be directly affected, that much is true. But this would represent an end of 24/7 service at every station, which is something that hasn't occurred in the history of the subway with some insignificant exceptions. The door will have been opened, so to speak, for further service cutbacks. My fear is that these cutbacks will end up going too far.
[I am concerned about the "slippery-slope" situation. Let's assume that the TA ends late-night service on an underutilized line such as the West End shuttle. Few people will be directly affected, that much is true. But this would represent an end of 24/7 service at every station, which is something that hasn't occurred in the history of the subway with some insignificant exceptions. The door will have been opened, so to speak, for further service cutbacks. My fear is that these cutbacks will end up going too far.]
It's a valid fear. After all, look at what happens to the replacement every time they tear down an el.
At the same time, I think 24/7 service in all areas is a real white elephant. If only they could be trusted to trim service only when comparable service is offered economically--or if people were actually charged for what they use. I suspect that people would stop clamoring for late night service soon after their first $10 fare!
At the same time, I think 24/7 service in all areas is a real white elephant. If only they could be trusted to trim service only when comparable service is offered economically--or if people were actually charged for what they use. I suspect that people would stop clamoring for late night service soon after their first $10 fare!
At that point, anyone who has a car will use it at night. Alot of people are probably doing this already, but a $10 fare would virtually get everyone with a car off of mass transit at night.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[At that point, anyone who has a car will use it at night. Alot of people are probably doing this already, but a $10 fare would virtually get everyone with a car off of mass transit at night.]
Is that necessarily bad, though? It's more economical, and there's plenty of room on the streets.
[At that point, anyone who has a car will use it at night. Alot of people are probably doing this already, but a $10 fare would virtually get everyone with a car off of mass transit at night.]
Is that necessarily bad, though? It's more economical, and there's plenty of room on the streets.
Very true. I used to do it myself whenI lived in the city. But, what about those who don't have cars. Some don't have cars because they are poor and can't afford them. You can't slap these people with a $10 fare.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Very true. I used to do it myself whenI lived in the city. But, what about those who don't have cars. Some don't have cars because they are poor and can't afford them. You can't slap these people with a $10 fare.]
The problem as always with subsidies is that there's no free lunch--the poor *do* end up paying for that $10 fare, because the money that goes to it could go to other, more economical services they could make better use of.
It seems to me that rather than subsidizing this or that, we should just give the poor more opportunity and help and let them make their own choices depending on what they need most.
It's also amusing to note that I hear the same complaint from LIRR riders, who are presumably not poor, about the prospect of reduced subsidies.
Larry, and other subtalkers, While I certainly cannot fault your dollar estimates, the scheduled reliable bus idea depends on a level of credibility which I doubt. .But in truth, that is all thedetail stuff. The REAL issue IMHO sitting here in Oakland CA, is once you allow some off hour curtaailment, you are on the slope toward the "anti-New York" transit operators. Item, I arrived in DC from NYC on a Saturday in November(Amtrak overnight from Penn) only to discover that DC Metro starts service @ 8 AM!!! This is absurd, but because it has never run all night there is very little public pressure available to force earlier service.
Efficient use of money you say? I SAY tax the autros off the streets and junk the fareboxes. Rather than accepting the crumbs from the highway lobby and fighting over saring an insufficient budget, the push should be for more money for more and better service. BTW, as to the train meeting for convenience @36th St etc., we have some of that on BART here. HOWEVER, currently there is Caltrans freeway work obstructing some tracklage south of the major transfer station--BART's solution delay the Fremont train(a "G" analog-and send the San Francisco train on ahead--this at a time of day with 20 min headways all over. My point you ask? The 'guaranteed' connection isn't. All that said no night time cut backs!
Gosh, I'm glad I don't work late nights anymore like I did in the 80s. At 3-6 AM, depending how busy we were, I took the 4 from GCT to Union Sq, and then the R home to Bay Ridge. The Manhattan Bridge was open then for Ns, but no express overnight service.
The trip took abt 90 mins. including wait time. If you added the extra 15-20 mins waiting at 59th for the shuttle...jeez...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Long Ride: Geez)
That's the point. Night service now is Ghost Service, not Owl Service. People compare a theoretical idealized network with a subway to bus system, but that's not what we have. (Its like comparing a voucher system with ideal in which rich and poor share the same school, rather than with the de-facto voucher system we have).
And if the subways ran frequently enough to be decent, what would be the cost per ride? Even if you count on attracting more passengers, there are just too few people out there to make it anything other than absurd. To satisfy those against change, while keeping costs down, service is cut to nonsense levels but not eliminated.
Now I admit to a credibility issue, long term. Once you replace the subways with a more limited system connecting with frequent bus service, what's to stop the bus service from being cut away? But I think a better future is possible, and the idea that because you have to connect to a bus at 3 a.m. the subway will not open until 8 a.m. is silly.
I read an article on Clinton Hill in this weekend's times. It said the Metrocard made the area more attractive, because instead of getting on the G and having to transfer, or the infrequent C, you can hop a bus to Downtown Brooklyn and board a more frequent subway. DIRECT RELEVANCE to a choice between a bus connection or having to ride an infrequent subway, or subway shuttle, at night.
Late night, I'd rather take a FREQUENT IRT subway to Downtown Brooklyn, get out at a station WHERE MANY OTHER PEOPLE ARE ALSO, then take a connecting bus. Nothing worse than standing on a deserted underground platform for a long time in the middle of the night. How many women use that service? And now many stations are unmanned? Geez!
[if the subways ran frequently enough to be decent]
It's funny to read you complaining about "infrequent" late night service. In Buffalo, a bus every twenty minutes is considered frequent. Late nights we're lucky that even one bus line runs every hour. A late night train running every twenty minutes is not absurd. It's actually pretty good service. You New Yorkers always in a rush have no true concept of wait time.
It's funny to read you complaining about "infrequent" late night service. In Buffalo, a bus every twenty minutes is considered
frequent. Late nights we're lucky that even one bus line runs every hour. A late night train running every twenty minutes is not
absurd. It's actually pretty good service. You New Yorkers always in a rush have no true concept of wait time.
Everything is relative. Have you ever considered that maybe you folks up in Buffalo have no true concept of frequent service? :-)
[It's funny to read you complaining about "infrequent" late night service. In Buffalo, a bus every twenty minutes is considered frequent. Late nights we're lucky that even one bus line runs every hour. A late night train running every twenty minutes is not absurd. It's actually pretty good service. You New Yorkers always in a rush have no true concept of wait time.]
One of the main differences I think is that very few people in New York have cars; if you work at night, you're stuck.
One of the main differences I think is that very few people in New York have cars; if you work at night, you're stuck.
More New Yorkers have cars than you think, unless things have changed that drastically in the past 20 years. When I lived in NYC (in Queens), I had a car. Most people in Brooklyn and Queens did. I lived in an apartment and parked the car on the street. I didn't use it to go to work, but I used it sometimes at night and on weekends. With metered parking suspended at 6 PM, I drove into Manhattan if I was going anywhere at night. The trip was shorter and I felt safer. Queens to Queens, or Queens to Brooklyn trips, definately by car. Once I got a driver's license and a car, basically the only times I'd use the subway was to go to work, sporting events and railfanning. After all, the trains have always been my first love.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
According to census data, about 43 percent of NYC households had one or more cars in 1990. Interestingly, that figure hasn't changed much since 1960.
The elderly and young singles and couples tend not to have cars, because in NYC they can get around without them and use the money for other things. Middle income and better families with children almost all have cars. Poor families do not, but probably wish they did.
Why more traffic now than in 1960, given that the population and the share of households with cars are about the same?
1) More adults, and more households -- fewer persons in each household.
2) More households with TWO+ cars, rather than just one.
3) More people driving in from the burbs, or just driving through.
According to census data, about 43 percent of NYC households had one or more cars in 1990. Interestingly, that figure hasn't changed much since 1960.
The elderly and young singles and couples tend not to have cars, because in NYC they can get around without them and use the money for other things. Middle income and better families with children almost all have cars. Poor families do not, but probably wish they did.
I was a young single when I got my first car in NY. I was 21 when I got the car and 26 when I left NY. Most of my friends that weren't railfans had cars, even the ones with limited income. Back in the 1970's, you were able to get a running car for a couple of hundred dollars. I paid $275 for an 11 year old car. It was a 1965 Chrysler Newport. It weighed 4000 lbs. and got 8 miles to the gallon in the city. One friend of mine had a 9 year old 1967 Dodge Dart with a rusted through floor. Pick up the floor mat and you see the road. Another friend had a car that was in a wreck but ran that he picked up for $150. It was a battered station wagon that had A/C like a refrigerator - icy cold! I had another friend that picked up a rusting old mini school bus for $25. there waas another guy I knew in Queens with a 1964 Falcon. If you lived in Brooklyn or Queens, it semed unusual not to have a car - anything that ran. The established middle class people with families had the later model stuff. Just about everybody that I went to college with either had their own car or drove their father's. So, I don't care what the statistics say. Just about all my peers and I myself had a car. I will say this - anyone who lives in Manhattan who owns a car needs his head examined. When my cousin lived on the Upper East Side, he had no car. Whenever he needed to go somewhere outside the city, he would rent one for the day.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I will say this - anyone who lives in Manhattan who owns a car needs his head examined. When my cousin lived on the Upper East Side, he had no car. Whenever he needed to go somewhere outside the city, he would rent one for the day.]
Well, I don't have one for just that reason--I don't need it to get around and it's a lot cheaper to rent. But when I was growing up on the West Side we always had a family car here, an immense station wagon to boot. And when I had a summer job on Wall Street, I used to drive down the West Side Highway every day with my father; it was actually an easy commute, easier and faster than taking the rush hour train. I remember lots of kids in my HS class driving from Manhattan to school in the Bronx, too, though I continued to take the IRT.
Well, I don't have one for just that reason--I don't need it to get around and it's a lot cheaper to rent. But when I was growing up on the West Side we always had a family car here, an immense station wagon to boot. And when I had a summer job on Wall Street, I used to drive down the West Side Highway every day with my father; it was actually an easy commute, easier and faster than taking the rush hour train. I remember lots of kids in my HS class driving from Manhattan to school in the Bronx, too, though I continued to take the IRT.
The best thing to own in Manhattan is a bicycle.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[The best thing to own in Manhattan is a bicycle.]
I think a horse would be cool.
I think a horse would be cool
I like horses. I would much rather ride a live animal than an inanimate hunk of steel. They're faithful and loyal, just like dogs.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I like horses. I would much rather ride a live animal than an inanimate hunk of steel. They're faithful and loyal, just like dogs.]
But now Sony is selling an artificial dog. Who knows, the real article may be as scarce as horses in a few years . . .
Never had a car, neither my mother or father had a car, aunts and uncles never had a car. The only members of the family who had cars were my cousins, and they soon moved to Nassau County!
No car tradition in my family...we could never afford 'em and had no need for them with the occasionally reliable MTA.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Never had a car, neither my mother or father had a car, aunts and uncles never had a car. The only members of the family who had cars were my cousins, and they soon moved to Nassau County!
No car tradition in my family...we could never afford 'em and had no need for them with the occasionally reliable MTA.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My parents never drove either. My aunts, uncles and cousins do. So does my brother.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Are there any figures about the average age that a New York City resident gets a driver's license? Years ago, I had the impression (maybe I read it someplace) that the average age for getting a license was around 22 or so.
That impression was a reason I thought that raising the drinking age to 21 was so dumb--just because suburban and rural kids, after their day off from school on their 16th birthdays to go get their learners' permits, would go out driving drunk, killing each other, was no reason to discriminate against city kids who might have wanted to drink but had no plans to drive until they reached 22 or so.
If they had raised the driving age to 21, what a boon for public transportation all across the country would have occurred!
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Are there any figures about the average age that a New York City resident gets a driver's license? Years ago, I had the impression (maybe I read it someplace) that the average age for getting a license was around 22 or so.
That impression was a reason I thought that raising the drinking age to 21 was so dumb--just because suburban and rural kids, after their day off from school on their 16th birthdays to go get their learners' permits, would go out driving drunk, killing each other, was no reason to discriminate against city kids who might have wanted to drink but had no plans to drive until they reached 22 or so.
If they had raised the driving age to 21, what a boon for public transportation all across the country would have occurred!
I was 21 when I got my license. I only did it when I discovered that the subway doesn't take me everywhere I wanted to go. Up to that point, that's what I used to say - "I don't need a car. The subway takes me everywhere I need to go".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
In NY State you can get your DL at 16 with Drivers Training, but you can t drive in NYC with any licesnse until you are 18
(In NY State you can get your DL at 16 with Drivers Training, but you can t drive in NYC with any licesnse until you are 18)
Not ture. With drivers ed you can get senior privleges in NYC at 17. I did it along with 95% of my high school class.
I think the idea of raising the driving age, rather than the drinking age, to 21 to solve the problem is great. The problem is, isn't there a right to drive in the constitution?
No, our children just think there is :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No it isn't. The subway doesn't take you where you want to go unless it's in Manhattan. And it's not even the best choice on weekends. All you do by raising driving age is limit mobility to people who are legal adults. You can raise the driving age to 18 which is effectively the case in New York City, but beyond that, it's wrong. The 21 drinking and gambling age is wrong.
Heck, in our society, lots of people don't become adults until they're 25. Still, here in Brooklyn where you can't see the pedestrians and cars coming around the corner because an SUV parked on the street and a building block your view, it has given me a little fright to see some of the neighborhood teens starting to drive. Any most of them are very nice girls, not rowdy boys.
The 21 drinking and gambling age is wrong.
It always used to be 18. It was 18 when I was 18. When did they raise the age in New York State? Funny thing in Florida - you can legally drive at age 14 but you can't legally drink until 21. Actually, with the driving age, I think its a student license at 14 and a full license at 16.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They should make the legal drinking and driving age 25. The majority of accidents are caused by those under 25. Since I'm over 25 that is how I feel. When I was 15, I wanted the legal driving age to be 14. When I'm 50, I'll want the leagal driving age raised to 35. When I'm 60, I'll want it raised to 40. Basicly, I want to keep my kids off the road.
Look at the statistics. In North Carolina, where the driving age (full license) is 16, the highest group for accidents is 16 and 17 year olds. In New Jersey, where the age is 17, the highest group is 17 and 18. Basically, it's not the age, it's the number of years experience. Part of that can also be attributed to the parents. Again citing North Carolina statistics, those new drivers who had less than 500 miles of driving experience (on a permit, with a parent or guardian in the car) prior to obtaining their license were significantly more likely to be involved in an accident than those with 500-5000 miles experience. And those with greater than 5000 miles experience were even less likely to have one. Also, in North Carolina, girls were more likely to have an accident during their second year of licensed driving, while boys were more likely to have one during their first year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Raising the driving age to 25, you'd notice that that group will have the highest accidents.
Probably, but I'm willing to guess it will be a whole lot less than the 18-24 group. The biggest problem as someone else wrote is the lack of experience that new drivers have. In New York, no one is allowed on a highway until they are licensed. Basicly, we give new drivers a minimum of training and then hand over to them a lethal weapon, a car. If new drivers had to have a higher minimum number of hours or miles behind the wheel, including night driving, driving in rain, snow, etc. before they are allowed to go out solo, accidents among younger drivers will drop. Of course I'm not accounting for the damage DWI contributes to the problem. I focusing on young drivers who are sober.
Mark.
Probably, but I'm willing to guess it will be a whole lot less than the 18-24 group. The biggest problem as someone else wrote is the lack of experience that new drivers have. In New York, no one is allowed on a highway until they are licensed. Basicly, we give new drivers a minimum of training and then hand over to them a lethal weapon, a car. If new drivers had to have a higher minimum number of hours or miles behind the wheel, including night driving, driving in rain, snow, etc. before they are allowed to go out solo, accidents among younger drivers will drop. Of course I'm not accounting for the damage DWI contributes to the problem. I focusing on young drivers who are sober.
Mark.
I learned how to drive through a driving school. During my second lesson (my second time ever behind the wheel), my instructor had me drive under the el on Roosevelt Ave. and on the Long Island Expressway for a couple of exits. Talk about sh**ting in my pants! I'm thankful for being thrown into heavy traffic and onto the expressway right away. It prepared me for any driving situation. Once I got my license and my first car, I had no fear of driving anywhere. I had to go out to Fairlawn, NJ to pick up my first car. I went out there with a friend, and soloed going home over the GW Bridge, Cross-Bronx Expressway, Whitestone Br. and the Long Island Expressway, all in rush hour. I was driving the expressways, the streets, the Brooklyn Br., the Willie B., cruising out on the Island - all being a new driver, and had no fears because of what my driving instructor did with me from the beginning. that was in early 1976. I never got a ticket for a moving violation in NYC. I got my first ticket in Florida at age 29 (speeding), and got into one minor fender-bender also in Florida at age 37, which wasn't my fault. So, I guess I defy all the statistics regarding drivers and age. To this very day, I hook up my seatbelt before I put the key in the ignition, because that's the way I was taught. BTW, I had one hour a week of driving school for 4 months before I passed my second road test. I took the first one in 1/76 and the second one in 3/76. Two weeks later, I bought my first car from my uncle.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I took Drivers ed in Manhattan also in 1975-76. My group met on the weekend, so we didn't have rush hour traffic. We never got on a highway, (FDR Drive or West Side Highway) and there are no more els. We always drove in the day, never at night. We never got any snow or ice, I think it only rained lightly once.
My father took me out a lot, (on Long Island becuase a lerner's permit is no good in the City if you are under 18, unless the car has dual brakes.) I got better experience with him than I did with drivers ed. Since there were four in our group, each of us got to drive for 20 minutes. The course was for 12 weeks, so each of us got a total of 4 hours behind the wheel.
If someone is able to pass the road test (lets face it, the road test is a joke), with that minimal training, there is no way they are prepared for nite driving, snow driving or highway driving.
Even with the additional help I got, I was nervous about entering a highway for quite some time. Part of the problem is I went away to college for a couple of years and didn't drive much.
I didn't take Driver's Ed. I heard it was a joke and you didn't learn much or get much practice. I went to driving school. An instructor would pick me up at my house and give me a private lesson every week for an hour.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Guess I'll date myself here, but I learned to drive on a 1929 Model A Ford roadster that my father rebuilt. You had to double clutch when you shifted and of course there was no power anything, also no side windows, just side curtains that you put up when it rained. I also took driver's ed, after I had my license, so that I could get my insurance premiums reduced. In all my years of driving I've had one chargeable accident (I fell asleep at the wheel and hit a road sign) and, in my grad student days, a couple of speeding tickets. I grew up in Poughkeepsie (although I've never really considered it home) so I had small-city driving as well as rural when I was learning. NYC came later, down from Yonkers and under the el, when I was about 18.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Guess I'll date myself here, but I learned to drive on a 1929 Model A Ford roadster that my father rebuilt. You had to double clutch when you shifted and of course there was no power anything, also no side windows, just side curtains that you put up when it rained. I also took driver's ed, after I had my license, so that I could get my insurance premiums reduced. In all my years of driving I've had one chargeable accident (I fell asleep at the wheel and hit a road sign) and, in my grad student days, a couple of speeding tickets. I grew up in Poughkeepsie (although I've never really considered it home) so I had small-city driving as well as rural when I was learning. NYC came later, down from Yonkers and under the el, when I was about 18.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its too bad you couldn't find a way of keeping and preserving that wonderful piece of history. I'd go nuts over a Model A. Even if I couldn't afford to fix it up, if it was mine, I would have put it in storage, hoping that some day I'd have the money to fix it up and restore it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Dad sold it at Mother's insistance, she never liked it - I was still in college at the time, it shared the garage with Mother's car and my motorcycles; Dad's other car and my '60 Fairlane 500 sat outside and she wanted at least one of them inside. The car was bought by the owner of the Ford dealership in Highland, NY, whose wife wanted it. He was going to do a full-blown restoration of the body (the mechanics were in excellent shape and the body, while good, had some hidden flaws), so I suspect that it is still around.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dad sold it at Mother's insistance, she never liked it - I was still in college at the time, it shared the garage with Mother's car and my motorcycles; Dad's other car and my '60 Fairlane 500 sat outside and she wanted at least one of them inside. The car was bought by the owner of the Ford dealership in Highland, NY, whose wife wanted it. He was going to do a full-blown restoration of the body (the mechanics were in excellent shape and the body, while good, had some hidden flaws), so I suspect that it is still around.
The 1960 Fairlane is a nice classic also.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I had that one for a good while - courted my wife in it, although I sold it before we got married. Gunsights on the front fenders, picnic table fins in the back, 223 flathead 6, three on the tree, a nice bright blue 2-door sedan. Somewhere around one of our houses I've still got the original red leather keycase from Housenick Motors in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania with the keytags inside.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What kind of bikes did you have? I see wrote motorcycles plural.
I had the use of two Triumphs for about three years, a 650 and an 850 Bonneville - they belonged to a friend of my Dad's who ran out of space when he got married (wife advised him that her cars were going in the garage and that left room for only four bikes in the third stall - one Harley with side car, two BMWs, and a Norton - so these two had to go). That was many many moons ago, I haven't ridden since I graduated from college. By that time Dad's friend had doubled the size of his garage so he was able to take them back, and besides I was moving 450 miles away and wouldn't have had a safe place to park them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Private lessions are without a doubt far superior to drivers ed. However, private lessons are much more expensive. Driver's ed gets you to pass the road test, and that is it.
When JFK Jr.'s plane went down last summer, all the comentators who happen to be amature pilots said, he had training to make him competent to fly under good conditions, but did not have enough experience to fly in difficult circumstances. This is no different from many new drivers who may be fine on sunny days with lite traffice. Put them in a difficult situation, and they don't have the proper experience to handle it.
The drivers in the 18-24 group, expecially the males also suffer from immaturity and drive accordingly
Private lessions are without a doubt far superior to drivers ed. However, private lessons are much more expensive. Driver's ed gets you to pass the road test, and that is it.
That's why I'm thankful for the instruction that I got, because by the time I was ready to solo, I was prepared for anything and afraid of nothing. Like I said, my first solo was in the first car that I had just bought and I had to drive it back to Queens from New Jersey in rush hour traffic. As for the lessons, my parents paid for it. I was a college student at the time and I wasn't working.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re uselessness of driver's ed]
And how. I took driver's ed at a private driving school in Connecticut. It was a complete laugh. Most of the time was spent in class, listening to lectures delivered at a level appropriate for ten-year-olds and watching typical bloody-crash movies. The on-the-road training was little better, as it consisted of tootling around at no more than 20 m.p.h. on lightly traveled roads during daylight.
Well, this is the last message in this branch of the thread I'm reading so I'll plant myself here:
I took Drivers Ed. In addition to an insurance deduction and giving me the ability to drive NOW instead of waiting for October. It also gave me the basic skills I needed to drive so I could gain experience (20 minutes a week is not enough).
I also took Drivers Ed in Manhattan, the other two people in the car already knew how to drive, I didn't and I would have never passed the Road Test without the driving experience with my father in Long Island. It was certainly NOT lightly travelled, and the end of the lesson had already entered darkness. However, it had never rained during any one of the lessons. And the only El was the FDR between Avenue C and 20th.
P.S. There were no videos during the lecture, even though the video trolley always sat in the room.
20th St. and Ave. C aka Stuyvesant Town was my childhood stomping ground.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re uselessness of driver's ed]
And how. I took driver's ed at a private driving school in Connecticut. It was a complete laugh. Most of the time was spent in class, listening to lectures delivered at a level appropriate for ten-year-olds and watching typical bloody-crash movies. The on-the-road training was little better, as it consisted of tootling around at no more than 20 m.p.h. on lightly traveled roads during daylight.
One thing that was mandatory in New York was the 3-Hour Class, in which we saw crash movies. You couldn't take a road test unless you took the 3-Hour Class first.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its now 5 hours, and they charge you a hand and a leg for it.
Its now 5 hours, and they charge you a hand and a leg for it.
Five hours! That's terrible. Three was bad enough. How does one stay awake for the full 5 hours?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Lots of coffee, think of other things while watching the programs...and somehow pass that test they give you.
[According to census data, about 43 percent of NYC households had one or more cars in 1990. Interestingly, that figure hasn't changed much since 1960.]
One thing that's no secret is that a high percentage of vehicles driven in NYC are unregistered, uninsured, or driven by unlicensed drivers - in many cases, all three "un's" apply. I therefore tend to be somewhat suspicious of car-ownership data. Census figures might be a reliable source, but the latest available data is a decade old.
[Why more traffic now than in 1960, given that the population and the share of households with cars are about the same?]
It might be because a high percentage of the vehicles on the road are vehicles *other* than private automobiles. These include taxis, car services, delivery trucks, tradesmens' vans, buses, and so on. Obviously, the percentage of traffic consisting of commercial vehicles varies by time and place, but as a general rule it's probably higher than almost anywhere else in the country.
(Commercial vehicles and traffic)
That's a good point. We certainly have more commercial vehicles per square foot of pavement.
(Decade old data)
It could be that auto ownership will go down for the same reason that subway ridership has gone up -- more and more yuppies and immigrants replacing old-line New Yorkers who drive.
How much extra would it cost to time shuttles like the R to 95 St. properly so that they would always arrive a minute or two after the through train (the N in this case)? And a minute or two before for inbound trains? It couldn't cost much extra, and it would effectively eliminate at least one wait of up to 20 minutes.
I understand that the Lefferts Blvd. shuttles are timed this way. The TA should make sure that ALL the late night shuttles are timed properly for connection - Rockaway Pk,. Bay Ridge (R), West End (B), Dyre Ave. (5), Myrtle Ave. (M). Did I miss any? Oh yeah, Lenox Ave. (3) - even though that IS a bus.
Speaking of which--how much more trouble would it be to run the 95th St. and West End shuttles to Pacific St. instead of 36th St? I've never used either myself, but it sure seems like a convenience people would appreciate (for about four months, before they got used to it and started asking, why not run these trains to the city?).
(Why not run the West End shuttle to 36th)
Picking up this idea:
Aside from a few pennies saved, why not run the Q three more stops to Stillwell, or better yet local from Stillwell to Kings Highway and then express? More people far out get express service without changing that way.
Aside from a few nickel saved (even fewer, with OPTO), why not run the G to Church, F express or not, to eliminate the F delays at the existing "terminal" and provide more service at the four additional stops?
"....or better yet local from Stillwell to Kings Highway..."
Why is that better? Only if you use Avenue U or Neck Road.
Just out of interest, is it possible to estimate how much money would be saved if the NYC subway closed between, say, 1 AM and 5 AM?
Just out of interest, is it possible to estimate how much money would be saved if the NYC subway closed between, say, 1 AM and 5 AM?
Although this is practiced on other systems throughout the country, and even throughout the world, it is an idea that is totally alien to New York, and I don't think it would be tolerated. Since there's been transit in New York, there has been no disruption of service except during a strike or a power failure.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Night service in other cities:
As part of her platform for the Mayor of London election, Glenda Jackson (who's a real politician over there now, so don't snicker, even though she probably won't win this one) has proposed opening up a few key tube lines for night service, starting with the Victoria, in recognition that London is turning into a city that never sleeps too. (Tube officials say they need the downtime to do repairs.) Berlin runs a consolidated night rail service on a couple of the U-Bahn lines as well. Doesn't Chicago do the same?
Boston is considering extending the T hours to coincide with a later bar licensing. (Currently both shut down at 1 AM.)
I can't object to the logic of Larry's idea for night subway service only in the city core, but if it were adopted I imagine the MTA beginning to chip away within a few years at the 3-4 minute frequency he suggests. First five, then eight, then ten...who's gonna know the difference? Just a few insomniac railfans. I ride the night trains all the time, and while I'm not happy with the service, I'd rather let dozing dogs lie.
. I ride the night trains all the time, and while I'm not happy with the service, I'd rather let dozing dogs lie.
I couldn't agree more. I also believe that the TA would chip away at night replacement bus service. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.
Oh, and I hope that London does get its nighttime rapid transit service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT."
Here's a question I always wanted to ask: What kind of illiterate wrote that proverb?
I think it was YOGI
I happen to like it!!!
I happen to like it!!!
I do too, and I use it all the time. It is such a classic, that it wouldn't sound the same saying "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Could have made the same argument about horsecars. Or un-airconditioned cars. Or tokens.
This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything.
[This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything.]
New York's probably anti-future because it's way too nostalgic for the past. Now, there's nothing wrong with an admiration for the past, as in forgotten-ny. But way too many people go beyond mere admiration and actually want to turn back the hands of time, metaphorically speaking, and return the city to an era that's not only vanished but obsolete.
Consider the incessant whining over the demolition of the old Penn Station. It's been gone over 35 years, and had been in decline well before its demolition, yet people who weren't even born then bemoan its loss. This has been translated into the plans for converting the Post Office building into a "new," grand station for Amtrak. Wake up folks, the old Penn Station was built for a type of transportation that's dead, buried, and largely forgotten. Trying to re-create it today would be a huge waste of money.
Another example, moving away from transportation, is the action of the anencephalitics on the City Council to ban superstores. While their actions presumably were motivated by sheer stupidity, many New Yorkers fully supported the ban. To many peoples' minds, big stores are evil, and everyone should shop at friendly Mr. Wilson's corner market. The fact remains that superstores are the wave of the future, something that's been recognized almost everywhere else in the country. New Yorkers, with their hatred of anything modern, have gotten their wishes as superstores have been kept away. Of course, they have to shop at crappy, dirty, overpriced stores, staffed by suspicious, lazy clerks rather than avuncular Mr. Wilsons. What a waste.
(NYC Council anecephalitics voted to keep out new stores)
Whatever that word means, its too kind. Bacteria is more like it.
But smart bacteria. Congressman Weiner (a correct name if ever there was one) put in his newsletter how he is working to get federal money to bring new supermarkets to Brooklyn, in response to community complaints.
Before taking clueless Chuck Schumer's old job, Councilmember Weiner voted against the zoning amendment to allow supermarkets to open without years of red tape.
Why I saw Weiners "report" of taxpayer financed lies, I almost barfed.
[(NYC Council anecephalitics voted to keep out new stores)
Whatever that word means, its too kind. Bacteria is more like it.]
It's a form of birth defect in which babies are born without brains. Now, the medical literature says that anencephaly is always fatal within a few days. So how do they explain the City Council?
The old Penn Station was built for a type of transportation that's dead, buried, and largely forgotten. Trying to re-create it today would be a huge waste of money.
Peter, I'll agree and disagree with you at the same time. True, the grand age of railway travel has ended, and will probably never return. But monuments to our heritage are vital to teaching our children about that history - to quote John D. Rockefeller, in a speech (or letter? I forget which) at the time he endowed the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, "so that the future may learn from the past." Penn Station should never have been torn down. Yes, it was a white elephant, sitting on a valuable piece of midtown real estate. But it represented an important part of our heritage, and Grand Central, while impressively restored, just doesn't have the stature that Penn Station had. Assuming that the additional space is needed in Penn - and I'd have to agree with those who say it is - renovation of the Farley building to serve passengers is a good choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Preserving the heritage)
Unfortunately, the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction. During the 1980s, the City spent $100,000 a unit to renovate two-bedroom apartments in tenements which had been built cheaply and poorly for the poor with inferior floor plans.
I guess politicians aren't good at qualitative judgements. In Baltimore they are tearing down one-family brick rowhouses that would sell for a mint in any decent neighborhood of NYC.
[Peter, I'll agree and disagree with you at the same time. True, the grand age of railway travel has ended, and will probably never return. But monuments to our heritage are vital to teaching our children about that history - to quote John D. Rockefeller, in a speech (or letter? I forget which) at the time he endowed the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, "so that the future may learn from the past." Penn Station should never have been torn down. Yes, it was a white elephant, sitting on a valuable piece of midtown real estate. But it represented an important part of our heritage, and Grand Central, while impressively restored, just doesn't have the stature that Penn Station had. Assuming that the additional space is needed in Penn - and I'd have to agree with those who say it is - renovation of the Farley building to serve passengers is a good choice.]
Call me a radical--I think they should move Madison Square Garden next to Javits and rebuild Penn!
Seriously, we're guilty of major oldthink when it comes to thinking about transportation terminals. They should be airport/Amtrak gateways, with commuter service linking right into the business districts.
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Could have made the same argument about horsecars. Or un-airconditioned cars. Or tokens.
This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything
What do you call transit improvements? Replacing trolleys with buses and tearing down els with bus replacement? That's the trend that has been prevalent in NYC since the late 1930's. Actually, it is electric rail travel, trolley and rapid transit that are the wave of the future. At least, that's the way Europens feel about it. As for history and heritage, how much of this must we destroy in the name of the allmighty buck and in the name of progress? Again, I point to Europe, where buildings have been standing since the Middle Ages and aren't going anywhere. In this country, we can't even hold on to 100 year old buildings.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[This has to be the most conservative, anti-future city in the United States. People with influence seek different types of people on the sidewalk, and decide that any change is likely to result in decline. So they are against -- new transit improvments, new buildings, new businesses, anything.]
Such a vivid reversal from the way things once were. But I think it goes beyond the people on the sidewalk. When the City stopped growing, we became a bunch of greedy interest groups fighting for what we have--air, light, our bodega, our union contract, etc.--rather than competing to build what could be. The habits of the fat years, when everyone could be paid off and go home happy, are hurting us in these leaner ones.
"Doesn't Chicago do the same?"
CTA has 24-hour service on the Red and Blue lines, while on the other lines, generally speaking, service begins about 5 or 6 AM and ends somewhere between midnight and 2AM. All L lines run 7 days a week, with the exception of the Yellow Line, which is a weekday-only feeder into the Red Line's northern terminal.
IIRC, there's never been 24-7 on the Brown, Yellow, or Orange lines. All-night service ended on the Green and the Purple local in mid-1996. This system *generally* makes sense:
1) The Blue and Red Lines are by far the busiest lines.
2) Between the the Blue and the Red there is 24-hour coverage of the North, South, West, and Northwest Sides.
3) Green is fairly redundant to the Blue Line-Forest Park Branch and the southern portion of the Red Line. Pressure reliever during the day, useless duplication at night.
4) Brown, Purple, and Yellow are more-or-less feeders for the Red Line. (On the other hand, a good chunk of the late-night traffic on the Purple is Northwestern University students going to the city to party or returning from same. Many assert that all-night service on the Purple was not too lightly traveled and reduced drunk driving.)
5) Midway Airport is the major off-peak traffic generator on the Orange Line, and it closes about midnight, IIRC, due to noise considerations (VERY close proximity of residential neighborhoods).
Mind you, while "owl" service on the L is fairly decent, CTA's owl bus system is absolutely disgraceful! The owl bus map is a pale shadow of the daytime bus routes -- see for yourselves by going to
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/maps/cta-night-north.gif
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/maps/cta-night-south.gif
and then comparing those owl maps to the regular (daytime) CTA map at
http://www.yourcta.com/maps/systemmaps.html#a
I remember staying in London some years back and my hotel was about 5-6 miles from the Picidilly area. At Midnight the busses and tubes stopped running. We had to take a cab, with all the service charges after midnight it ran us about 30.00 to get back to the hotel. We were not out partying, we were coming from the theater which started at 9.00PM
Since there's been transit in New York, there has been no disruption of service except during a strike or a power failure.
I don't think they ran the 2nd Ave El at night.
(Is it possible to estimate savings)
Yes, but based on a lot of info I don't have. On the downside, you'd have to factor in the cost of securing the stations as the last train passes, and of running all the buses.
On the plus side, you'd have to factor in the fact that RTO and station personnnel, like everyone else, presumably hate working at night -- don't they get a night differential? You'd have an increase in safety for T&S projects. You'd have a decrease in vandalism. You'd have a decrease in crime and the associated victim lawsuits.
So its more than just having fewer station and RTO workers, but more bus drivers, on the street.
Then there are quality issues. Are the connecting buses to only run every 20 minutes like the trains, or more often? I say more often, but that would limit the savings. Are the stations now unmanned at night? That means we are saving money now, but at a terrible cost in passenger fear and safety.
Just sticking to the obvious, one bus every ten minutes means six bus drivers an hour. One train every 20 minutes means three T/Os and three conductors per hour, plus signal personnel, plus station personnel. The power demand per passenger should be lower for six buses per hour than for 30 subway cars per hour.
Finally, it should be noted that my plan would be to run the IRT with frequent (every 3-4 minute) service as far as Downtown Brooklyn, Queensboro Plaza, and the Hub, with transfers to special night buses there. The subway is better at moving people across the rivers even at night, and concentrating people on a few lines (they might have to walk an extra block or two) would allow frequent service at an affordable price.
My nightmare was when I was at Pratt late at night. I had to take the G to Smith/9th, then the F to 4th, the N to 36th and then catch the R shuttle.
The F+G are scheduled pretty poorly between 4th Av and Smith/9th, too. The G almost always rolls out of 4th Ave for Smith/9th before the F comes through, and I often see F's roll into 4th Ave from Manhattan with G's coming in right behind them.
Today while boarding my 3 @ Wall, a Manhattan bound 3 entered the station. I saw one of the cars and it was 1890. This car was followed by a Livonia car. I guess it was 1895,1894,1893,1892,1891,1890. But that is 6 cars???? I will have to check again and find out. I know I saw 1890..........
3TM
1890 is linked to 1886. 1886,1887,1888,1889,1890. 1891 would be linked to 1895 1891,1892,1893,1894,1895. if the last no. is a 1 it goes with a 5 and 6 it linked to 0.
I wonder why the No.3 Line is getting the Pelham Cars. I was told to expect the R62A will start disappearing this mouth but I was told there were going to the No.7 Line.
Well that is 10 cars that the 3 have from the 6 line....
1900,1899,1898,1897,1896 are the other 5
3TM
1891-95 are still over at Pelham..... I spotted them yesterday.
-Stef
Also, all ex Pelham Units, 1901-15, that were sent over to the 3 now have blue stickers. Does anyone know why 1910 hasn't had it's standard size operator's cab converted into a full width cab? Someone must have forgot.
Another peculiar item: I can't understand why 3 Trains only have transverse cabs at one end of the train. Are the shop crews going to convert any other cars assigned to the 3 to full width cabs? Any car ending with the digit 1,5,6, and 0 have the transverse cab, but there are none beyond 1960.
-Stef
I saw 1914 yesterday and it still had a yellow sticker...
3TM
Oops. I guess not all cars have the blue stickers yet.... Sorry!!!
-Stef
BTW, I saw the 1886-1890 set this morning at Wall St. This time it was heading to Brooklyn.......
3TM
1881-85 are running on the OPTO 5 Shuttle.
-Stef
My brother reported that he saw a train of redbirds on the 6 leaving 51st Street that had black and green stripes under the car number in addition to the yellow. Why are there cars from these yards on the 6? I've heard rumors that this is leading up to the big car shuffle when the R142s arrive.
Because two Pelham R62A trains move to #5 for OPTO, two Redbird trains from either 239 Street Yard or E180 Street Yard have to go to supplement #6 line.
Chaohwa
Are the R-62s and R-68s capable of automatic operation, or is that just the R-44s and R-46s.
There is nothing on the system that is capable of ATO.
The R44 and R46 orders were delivered with ATO gear in
varying degrees of functionality which was stripped over
the years and eventually removed altogether during GOH.
Any car is "capable" of automatic operation. It is simply how much money you want to spend on implementation.
As I was riding PATCO today, I noticed some very heavy tilt around the Camden portals. It was pretty cool. Does anyone know of the trains around that have the best tilt mechanisms?
As for PATCO, I think it is a great line for railfans, with speed, a nice view, and everything. But the only things I don't like are the fare collection system and the screeeeeeeeeeeeching that the Budd cars make when they go around curves. The screeching and the motorman's cab covering are different (curtain on Budds vs. glass on Vickers) Does anyone know any other differences.
But anyway, PATCO is far better than SEPTA RRD, and it is a shame that they do not want to expand.
Forgive my stream of conciousness writing.
Ahh yes, that wonderful "roller coaster" turn on PATCO. No, that's not a super secret Acela prototype, that's the track!
I HATE the fare collection system. I was once trapped in Patco for a while because the %^&$% turnstile wouldn't eat my farecard. Man, those things are acient!!! I poped the card in the slot, ands it flashed (with lighted signs) "Error 6" or something like that.
UGH!!!!
And I called the self help line there - person sugessted I keep trying. About 5 min of trying later, it *finally* worked.
My friend, after watching this, just hopped the turnstile - can you get arrested for hopping a turnstile out of the system?
As far as Septa? They have the ultra cool MP-85s, so I like them better :)
I HATE the fare collection system. I was once trapped in Patco for a while because the %^&$% turnstile wouldn't eat my farecard. ... My friend, after watching this, just hopped the turnstile - can you get arrested for hopping a turnstile out of the system?
I can't imagine any sort of officer that would go to the trouble, as long as you had the right card. I've been in that situation before, and I just waved at the camera and jumped it. I paid the right fare, so I figured I could defend myself if somehow confronted about it.
As far as Septa? They have the ultra cool MP-85s, so I like them better :)
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the MP-85? Is that model designation for the Norristown High-Speed Line (Rt. 100) cars?
/*Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the MP-85? Is that model designation for the Norristown
High-Speed Line (Rt. 100) cars?
*/
*thwap!* :)
No, that's the Silverliner II (or III?) early 60's vintage, ignitron rectifier tubes, and more fun stuff. Really cool cars, though I've yet to be on one :(
I thought the MP-85 designation was given to the Pioneer III cars (which later became Silverliner I's). All 4 of these are now retired.
No, it also applies to the later Silverliner II (or III?) cars.
AFIK, the Pioneer IIIs were failures. What were Pioneer I and II?
Ay, and if a 10-ride ticket gets out of whack, they send you to hard
labor for 10 years.
Well, not really, but they don't just exchange it. I'd heard that
you have to send it in, wait for a replacement, etc etc. :(
And how about that 0% discount! 2 ride * 5 $ = 10 ride ticket $.
I'm still tring to figure out Patco's do-si-do with the Spur. Anyone
have the Philly track maps?
But what a system. Fast, efficient, (fairly) clean, convenient, BUDD
cars!
The spur was par of the original Bridge trains to Camden, NJ. When PATCO was built they built a new station for the spur and the original connections were severed in favor of connecting the bridge tracks to the Locust Street Subway.
I'm sure BobW can go into more dteails.
Right - my question is how do the tracks weave around them? Why can I
see the (Chinatown?) spur station from Patco as I head into Jersey?
Ok, debate time: I thought Patco
> Ok, debate time: I thought Patco
Oops. Somehow my mouse clicked Post Message before I proofed it. :D
Ignore that bit.
As for PATCO, I think it is a great line for railfans, with speed, a nice view, and everything.
But the only things I don't like are the fare collection system and the screeeeeeeeeeeeching
that the Budd cars make when they go around curves.
Ah, "moosical" cars! The more a train screeches, the more I like it! At which curve in PATCO are they in their best voices? I find here in NYC that almost ANY IRT car will be in fine voice on the stretch from Chambers Street to Nevins Street, with numerous dizzying curves. Over in Division "B", R32 "E" trains sing their song northbound out of 50th Street. And Slant R40s can be found howling like banshees on the "N" from Whitehall to Canal Streets, esp. north of Cortlandt Street, a double-90-degree "S" curve. There are lots of other places where they haven't put track sprayers in yet, thank goodness.
No I'm not crazy, I just love wheel noise. It's part of the experience.
Wayne
No I'm not crazy, I just love wheel noise. It's part of the experience.
Wayne
There's alot of subway sounds that I liked that aren't around anymore. One is spur-cut bull and pinion gears on the pre-war cars, another is the clickety clack of a train going over non-welded rail, yet another was the noisy ride you got in the summer on non-air conditioned equipment, when all the end doors (except front and back, of course) were open, along with all the windows. Yes, I too like the screeching of a train going around a curve. All those sounds are part of riding the subway. I also liked the old PA systems (1960's) with the really poor audio that sounds like the conductor was holding his nose with one hand and cupping his other hand over his lips as he was talking into the crude mic. It sounds rediculous, but when you get used to something, the modern replacement just isn't the same.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Budd cars have skirting between the trucks while the Vickers "copies" don't. This is perhaps the difference that's easiest to spot when viewing the cars from the outside (but not useful if you're on a platform, where you will not see this). The seating is also slightly different.
The Budd single units have the half-door behind each cab. This is rarely used. I've heard a few explanations of why this door was placed on the single units. None of them seem to fully explain why.
If you want to see the trains tilt (and this is purely a chance thing), ride a train that stops at the "tower" just east of Broadway, where the tracks leave the subway but are just about to enter the I-76 underpass. There is a small platform here for official use only. The cars are into a fairly superelevated section here and a stopped train is tilted fairly noticably. I've done this several times.
As far as jumping the turnstile, I wouldn't suggest it if you're entering the system. PATCO is fairly diligent about enforcement and they'll catch you sooner or later. I've heard a few stories about this.
The tilt I experienced was just where you indicated, and happened both ways. I don't think the train actually stopped there, but it moved very slowly in that area, and the operator seemed to honk every couple seconds. The only part of the system as slow as that part would be between 8th Street and the bridge.
As for jumping the turnstiles, I did that once to get out, but after I had paid full fare, and had a defective ticket. It was at 9th/10th Street. Another time that happened, I showed my ticket to a policeman and he let me out. PATCO seems to have plenty of policemen.
More questions:
1. Is any part of the system single track (my only guess would be between 8th and the bridge, but I can't really tell from a railfan seat for some reason)?
2. What is top speed?
3. Wayside singnals..Lunar white, flashing...
IIRC, between 8th and the bridge the ROW is separated so it appears to be single track, but it is not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On systems that use cab signaling, lineside signals serve as switch indicators. A steady lunar white indicates that the switch is "normal". A flashing LW indicates "diverging route". A steady Red indicates "No Route. Do Not Enter".
Metro North Has been borrowing Loco #064 from the TA for quite a while now, but my question is, how did they get it there.
There is no connection in Grand Central, Did they have to take it up from Penn Via Sputyen Duyvil?
Fred
It could have gone through E180th st right onto the Amtrak line reverse to New Rochelle then down to GCT. This is if the connection was in at that time.
That was a possibility, but that connection hadn't been used in years. As it is right now the ramp leading down into the NEC was torn up in anticipation that a new bus depot would be built. Now it seems that the rest of the structure is about to be demolished as the concrete roadbed has been ripped out in ine section.
The best way for them to get around would have been through the Piers from 38th St Yard or through Linden Yard, the Bay Ridge Line to Fresh Pond, and then by the Freight Line to the Bridge and over into the Bronx at Oak Point Yard. As a matter of fact, I think they might have even used the Port Morris Connector to drop the loco at Mott Haven Junction!!! This time though, I expect that the loco will travel around the Harlem River Connector to get back. The only question that I have is where Metro North could leave the locomotive this time around, if CSX is not using the old Port Morris Connector frequently. If anything, loco 64 might go up to Croton North to be interchanged with CSX or CP.
-Stef
The latter was how they moved OEL-04 to the LIRR for a project in the East River Tunnels about four years ago. By the way is 64 the South Brooklyn spare with the switching steps. I remember one spare for SBK that always had them instead of the side ladders, a big no-no in railroad territory. I'd assume the 64 now has cab signalling and timing valves installed too. Nice job done for a locomotive the TA will eventually demand back.
What type of engine is this?
It's a GE 50 tonner built in the 1960s. That is, it's classified as a diesel locomotive and works around the NY City Transit System, in work trains (carrying work equipment), and special moves, such as the delivery of new subway cars.
-Stef
Exact class is GE SL-35. It's rated at 335 HP.
Oh? I always thought it was 57. I can recall seeing 57 coupled to N1 and N2 and pulling a set of R27/30s on the Bay Ridge Line during the Willy B Closure in 1988. Last I heard, 57 went over to Staten Island.
As for 64 it spends most time around GCT, so I believe that it lacks the cab signalling equipment. This locomotive is not permitted to travel past Morris Heights station on the Hudson Line. Is that possible? If it lacks the cab signalling equipment, then it would probably have to run with something else.
-Stef
It is mostly used within GCT itself. I've always seen her parked there, never on the road. Metro North is ordering new locos for GCT I believe, a blurb was in Railpace a month ago or so and 64 would come back to TA I ass-u-me.
Is the track book still available at the Grand Central Terminal Visitor Center? If it is, what version is it? How much does it cost? I would've sent Peter $35.00 by mail but I have a slight phobia of sending anything through mail, especially to Canada. Thanks.
Go to Transit Musuem Shop at Grand Central Treminal & it cost $29.99 plus tax. I have the book & it is great.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
>>Is the track book still available at the Grand Central Terminal Visitor Center? If it is, what version is it? How much does it cost? I would've sent Peter $35.00 by mail but I have a slight phobia of sending anything through mail, especially to Canada. Thanks.<<
---------
Trust me, you can send International Postal Money Order (orange color) to Peter in Canada, I've done this twice before (ordered 2 editions of his excellent track book! and the way he takes extra care in packaging the book!)
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
Same here, get an international money order from the Post Office, it is less than a $1.00 (US). IT's a great book.
You want the 2nd edition of 1/15/99 because it includes yard maps. If you order from the TA Museum 718-243-7230 ask what you'll get free with your order (orders of $30 or 35 entitles you to something free ... I got a poster of the first 77 MetroCards last year).
If you visit one of the 3 stores Times Sq. is the smallest and may not have the book.
Mr t__:^)
And if you are a member of the Transit Musuem see if they will take 10% off!!
Does the Museum do mail order??????
[Does the Museum do mail order??????]
Y-E-S ... I was trying to make that very point by giving the phone number.
BTW, The order I was talking about involved some very nice SERVICE by the museum folks in Brooklyn. My order arrived without the free poster, plus the track book had a couple of missing pages. When I called Brooklyn about it, I happened to mention that I was comming into the city from LI to drop my son off at Penn Stn. The museum employee said he would be willing to drop off the book & poster at the Times Sq. store where I could pick it up that Saturday AM. He did, I did. And I'm not even a member ! Nice folks there, incl. our Stef who will give you a tour when he's their.
Mr t__:^)
Don't ever worry about going through the mail to Canada. I've been doing business with Canadians for years, and NEVER a problem.
Just be glad Peter doesn't live in Mexico. Now THAT is a postal system to be leery of, unfortunately.
If you think Mexico s mail is bad try the Philippines. I sent my niece a poster of Mickey Mouse (she lives in Manila) and it never got there. But a letter mailed the same day did. If anyone goes to Manila try their elevated LRT(built in Belgium) Fast and Fun, when it runs
I bought the last copy they had on the shelf sometime in late december.
Great Book!
Just returned home after spending time in the DC area last week. Some observations about WAMATA Metro lines:
(1) Stations still nice to look at, cars clean and in good condition.
(2) Automated "doors closing" message is a drag after a while, but it is not doubt an ADA requirement for visually impaired persons.
(3) I rode the Green Line between Greenbelt and L'Enfant Plaza. The last two Maryland stations (Greenbelt and College Park) are adjacent to MARC commuter rail stations and offer some potentially great railfan pictures if you can get a MARC train speeding alongside Metro trains. Fort Totten is a really unique station with its half open/half closed lower level platform.
(4) The $5 daily tourist pass is not nearly as good as NY's, because it is not good before 0930 hours and is not good on any bus routes.
(5) Maximum train length on the Orange and Red Lines appeared to be 6 cars.
(6) Vienna (west end of Orange Line) suffers from chronic parking shortage because it has a large catchment area - a very popular destination. Orange Line is fun because you can speed along passing cars stuck in traffic on I-66.
(7) In general, a well run system from user and tourist point of view. Fare system, however, is still too complicated. From railfan view, lacks the character of the older systems in North America, but definitely worth seeing.
Andy, Did you try your MetroCard in the dip/swipe slots ?
Did you notice folks using Smart Cards ?
Buses are still using an old system (not Cubic) ?
Did you see any trackless trolleys ?
Mr t__:^)
I have had a SmarTrip for a year and have only seen 3 people other than me use one (not including those at the ceremony for launching it). No one will get one until it allows subway to bus transfers and more importantly, bus to subway.
Trackless trolleys? They haven't had them in Washington DC in decades.
DC NEVER had Trackless Trolleys. With the DC requirement for no overhead wires in the "old City" (U St/Florida Ave on the North, Potomac River on the South, Anacostia on the East and Georgetown/Wisconsin Ave on the West.) streetcars used conduit, and trackless trolleys would have been an impossibility.
Remember, the trackless trolley is bus with an electric motor.
As Chicago called them, "the buses with the sticks on top."
One transit man one described the trackless trolley as "A vehicle that combines the worst features of the streetcar and the bus. The inflexibility of the streetcar and the bad ride of the bus."
Eye would guess that Baltimore doesn't have any trackless trolleys in their collection ?
Shoreline @ Branford has one. I hope that one day somehow they restore it and run it around the "green" just dow the road from their line. That's a pritty tall order for several reasons, but it on my wish list just the same (maybe it has something to do with my working for a B-U-S company now |:-)
Mr t
We have 2 - a 1939 Pullman and a 1922 Brill Railless Car, both from URE/BTC. No place to run them (yet), both need extreme rebuilding (2078 needs electrical equipment (on hand) and body work, but is towable, and 4001 needs everything - just a body), but amazingly both survived post scrapping - 4001 in 1930 and 2078 in 1958.
Shoreline's also has a Brill, but a little more recent 1947 from SEPTA. It would be a shame if none got saved.
I once suggested that Shoreline could replace the tires with wheels, like they put on MOW trucks. The board member said something about when cows fly ..... Recently they moved it and put a tarp over it so that ONE DAY maybe it can be restored. That's good.
Mr t__:^)
Hi Thurston - Happy Y2K!
I only used my farecard (a $5 one day pass) in the traditional manner - in the entry slot, out the top slop as the gates opened.
Did not ride any buses but apparently there are still no bus to subway transfers, and the old style paper transfer used for subway to bus transfers with a value of 85 cents towards the bus fare. My $5 card was not good for any bus trips. There is a $2.50 one day unlimited bus ticket that can be purchased on the bus - versus a $1.10 local bus fare.
Did not see many folks using SmartCards - apparently they must be purchased off site but can be refilled in stations.
DC never had trackless trolleys, but did have a large, all PCC trolley fleet that covered the District and some nearby parts of Maryland. Originally Capital Transit Co., it became DC Transit (O. Roy Chalk) in about 1955. Between 1958 and 1962 it was entirely replaced by diesel buses at the insistence of the US Congress, which held the power of the franchise. Unique feature of DC trolleys - routes in the central part of DC used an underground conduit system similar to Manhattan's old trolley routes.
Thanks Andy for the additional detail. A previous Cubic (farebox mfg) news letter gave the impression that Washington was farther along with their IFU (i.e. farebox) on the buses. BTW, a SubTalk friend purchased a Wash. D.C. SmartTrip card for me, so the next time I visit Bill & Hillery I'm all set to just go NEAR the turnstiles.
P.S. Just got the "Final 1999" issue of Cubic newsletter. Nothing about Washington, but several articles about various Smart Cards, e.g. Hong Kong, NYC (yes photo of George Pataki holding one)
{will read the articles and post seperately if anything about NYC getting Smart Cards}
Mr t__:^)
The #40 (East Capitol Street) and #42 ("C" and "D" Streets NE) Mount Pleasant trolleys were among the last to be replaced - I remember riding on them as late as 1961. Don't know what the last one to go was. I was sure sorry to see them go - Mom couldn't break it to me that the trolleys were gone and buses had taken over - Grandma "Hush" had to do it. Of course I got over it, but buses weren't the same as the trolleys. Then the years went by and 1978 came - Grandpa Louie had died and we were down in DC for his funeral. During our stay there, I rode Metro for the first time, going from Eastern Market to National Airport and back. Metro has become a very important part of every visit to DC that I make, the last being October 11-12, 1999.
Wayne
Has anyone seen any of those four cars lately?
Are 2576, 2577 and 2578 still single cars waiting for their sister to be patched up?
Thanks!
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
I don't think we do. I visited an office for an interview on Lex yesterday. I took LIRR to Woodside, got on the #7, got off at GCT, and I was there in 15 minutes.
Don't most Long Island commuters who need east side access do that already?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, the real issue isn't east side access, it's trains into the City.
Facts:
There are no more rush hour "slots" into Penn Station. If the LIRR wants to add a train it has to drop another one. This has already happened.
NJT wants to add more trains into Penn.
Metro North wants to add trains into Penn.
People in Queens want more service. This can't be done without adding currently blocked trains.
Amtrak wants to add service, and Amtrak trumps everybody since they own the station. They can just take slots. They've already done so, even though LIRR carries the great majority of passengers on about 40% of the tracks.
Yet they make this seem to be a question of east side access. I don't know why.
OK, but if you do build a connection to GCT, you'll need a Second Avenue subway, since the Lex is a t crush level in the rush hours now.
Yet, Pataki could give a !@#$, and Clinton hasn't shown much resolve to gte federal funding. Who knows what W. would do if he gets in.
I am one of those people who believe we will never have a Second Avenue subway because even in these tims when there is a lot of money around, there's no real momentum toward building one. And when the next recession comes, that'll be the end of any Second Avenue subway.
>>>People in Queens want more service. This can't be done without adding currently blocked trains. <<
I belive the LIRR would write off Queens if they could. Its stations are in disrepair and Queens is the first to be sacrificed in potential emergencies like the potential transit strike...
[I belive the LIRR would write off Queens if they could. Its stations are in disrepair and Queens is the first to be sacrificed in
potential emergencies like the potential transit strike...]
They'd rather pack the trains with Nassau and Suffolk riders from higher fare zones.
I belive the LIRR would write off Queens if they could. Its stations are in disrepair and Queens is the first to be sacrificed in potential emergencies like the potential transit strike...
Kevin, the LIRR would write off everybody if they could.
The three most important Queens stations ridership-wide are Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and Woodside. All three have been rebuilt and had new platforms (Woodside full 12-car platforms) built in the last few years. Service to these stations has been increased and regularized, including in rush hour.
Trains from Nassau and Suffolk are mostly packed. Where is the capacity for Queens riders, who use the most jammed part of the resource (Jamaica-Penn) but pay the lowest fares?
The answer is new mainline capacity which is answered (badly, IMHO) by GCT access. GCT access is held hostage by City interests--then the City complains they don't have enough LIRR service.
GCT is not a great idea. It goes counter to Amtrak's reasonable theory, that in-city terminals should be consolidated, not splintered. GCT-LIRR access will force more people to change trains to get to their desired destinations, a really bad idea.
GCT is not a great idea. It goes counter to Amtrak's reasonable theory, that in-city terminals should be consolidated, not splintered.
GCT-LIRR access will force more people to change trains to get to their desired destinations, a really bad idea.
Is Amtrak really in a position to evaluate the requirements for in-city terminals? The most they have ever run into a single station is 3 or 4 trains per hour. I would assume that the operational dynamics and economics would change significantly, when you try to increase that number ten fold.
slAMTRAK has saved a ton of money moving out of GCT and having direct cross platform (well maybe almost cross platform) connections from Empire Service to the rest of the country. They saved not just in cutting the manpower from GCT but the RENT as well since they own NYP.
Amtrak might want to get back into GCT so that they can run Acela trains in there. It's possible that there's enough of a market to have trains into both stations, at least from New Haven and Newark.
Is anyone aware of how many tracks are available at GCT?
At least a dozen. There is almost no service on the lower level at the present time, and the upper level tracks are seriously underutilized.
The LIRR could take over the entire lower level, releasing some space in Penn in the process. This would directly benefit LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT, while providing better utilization of GCT. MN would benefit as well by having costs spread across another carrier and would also benefit slightly from the LI/upstate connection.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If we utilize all of Grand Central where is Lex Luthor from Superman going to live?
The abandoned platforms at 86th street under Park Avenue? (Those at least still have access to the surface.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>The LIRR could take over the entire lower level, releasing some space in Penn in the process. This would directly benefit LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT, while providing better utilization of GCT. MN would benefit as well by having costs spread across another carrier and would also benefit slightly from the LI/upstate connection.
That's what I figured the plan would be when I first heard about "East Side Access"; but instead they're putting in new platforms in Madison Avenue Yard (and moving the yard operations to the Bronx). It beats me why, unless MTA figures having the lower level in constant use would detract from their new food court.
I have the impression from the document on the TA website
(http://www.nyct.org/planning/esas/3description.htm) that there might not even be a track connection between the new LIRR station and Grand-Central-as-we-know-it. Stupefying, no?
Amazing. But typical of what we have come to expect from the MTA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[That's what I figured the plan would be when I first heard about "East Side Access"; but instead they're putting in new platforms in Madison Avenue Yard (and moving the yard operations to the Bronx). It beats me why, unless MTA figures having the lower level in constant use would detract from their new food court.
I have the impression from the document on the TA website
(http://www.nyct.org/planning/esas/3description.htm) that there might not even be a track connection between the new LIRR station and Grand-Central-as-we-know-it. Stupefying, no?]
The other thing I don't understand is why they're tunneling under/next to the existing MN tunnels. Since GCT is only half used, I assume they have plenty of capacity--wouldn't it be more economical to skip that mile of tunneling?
The other thing I don't understand is why they're tunneling under/next to the existing MN tunnels. Since GCT is only half used, I
assume they have plenty of capacity--wouldn't it be more economical to skip that mile of tunneling?
incompatible 3rd rail systems
Both LIRR and MetroNorth have some trains they lay over in the city and use only for rush hours, and some trains they keep running back and forth all day. I assumed that with all its capacity, LIRR would use GCT as a terminal, and run into and out of Penn all day, but I'm told its just the opposite. The LIRR will get just a few tracks at GCT, and will have to pull them out as fast as they go in.
What is the plan.
You misinterpreted my remarks. I have no doubt that the Penn Sta move was correct for Amtrak. My point was that concentration of in-terminal facilities might not necessarily be good for commuter rail lines given the vast difference in operational requirements.
Is Amtrak really in a position to evaluate the requirements for in-city terminals?
They own Penn Station--they say their needs come first and aren't shy in letting everyone know it. LIRR has done everything they can to make the most of the 8 tracks available to them (a few of which Amtrak also uses). They shuffle trains like crazy in and out of their tracks to/from the West Side Yard.
OTOH, you'll see Amtrak leisurely parking trains on other tracks as though they have all the space in the world...
From a quality of life perspective, LIRR to GCT makes sense because more LIRR riders could avoid the subway, taking mintues off their trip. You could just go into GCT and walk.
As for packing the Lex, as I've said, I'd make the discounted combined monthly ticket -- Metrocard not functional there. That would encourage those who want to transfer to the subway to go to Penn or Atlantic Avenue and not GCT. If running LIRR trains to GCT allows MetroNorth to go to Penn, I'd do the same to MetroNorth riders.
Amtrak sure does make sloppy use of Penn. I usually see a few Amtrak trains standing there, but rarely any NJT or LIRR ones, esp durring rush hour.
On top of that, amtrak really hasn't kept Penn that nice. I see they are, however, installing a new, even lower ceiling on the lower level. And their "updates" to the upper level (I love the blue and grey flooring, but the pattern looks like bad patchwork in places). but penn's still a dumpy looking place, esp compaired to 30th street, Union in DC, South station in Boston...
It'd be real nice if the MTA or someone else could get their hands on Penn, and cut Amtrak's useage down to an appropriate size. They're the smallest of the RRs going there. IMHO, NJT and the LIRR should get priority over the useage of the tracks, and Amtrak should get 2 or 3 - much more appropriate for the # of trains they run in / out of there.
Also, they're teraing up the Post Office across the street...for AMTRAK???? I know Amtrak thinks they're the most important thing on the planet, but do they REALLY need a whole, sepperate, terminal for the 3 or so traind an hour they run in / out of NYC?
Then again, these problems might not last long, unless by some miracle amtrak achives and keeps self sufficentcy in 2002.
But my question is - if not, who gets Penn? MTA? PA? NYC?
[GCT is not a great idea. It goes counter to Amtrak's reasonable theory, that in-city terminals should be consolidated, not splintered. GCT-LIRR access will force more people to change trains to get to their desired destinations, a really bad idea.]
If Penn had the capacity to handle everything, and hadn't been reduced to a glorified subway station, that would make a lot of sense. We should really have two stations, one in Midtown and one in Lower Manhattan, with trains of all kinds making thru stops at both and subway lines fanning out from there.
But since things weren't built that way, and Penn doesn't have the capacity, it seems to me we need a new paradigm for commuter RR access to the City, with trains making multiple stops in the business districts that link with the subway lines. One crosstown link could serve Midtown via 34th St., another Lower Manhattan running across from the WTC, with trains that have lower frequency heading to the existing terminals or serving only the Midtown run.
A Lower Manhattan connection w/LIRR would be a more sensible approach -- if it weren't for the vast congestion of both business, and infrastructure in that area, which makes a physical LIRR terminal connection down there an impossiblity. Had that been done around the time of all that grade elimination planning just after the turn of the 20th Century, it might have been possible.
I think an idea along those lines was a proposed extension of the LIRR Atlantic Ave Branch that would have not terminated at Flatbush, but rather continued done along Atlantic, entering a tube under the East River and then terminating somewhere near Bowling Green.
Doug aka BMTman
[ Lower Manhattan connection w/LIRR would be a more sensible approach -- if it weren't for the vast congestion of both business, and infrastructure in that area, which makes a physical LIRR terminal connection down there an impossiblity. Had that been done around the time of all that grade elimination planning just after the turn of the 20th Century, it might have been possible.
I think an idea along those lines was a proposed extension of the LIRR Atlantic Ave Branch that would have not terminated at Flatbush, but rather continued done along Atlantic, entering a tube under the East River and then terminating somewhere near Bowling Green.]
Actually, the situation doesn't seem to be that bad--the Lower Manhattan Access Project did an engineering study for an LIRR station and found several possible locations, one I think on Water Street and the other at the World Trade Center; the main criterion seems to be that they're out of the way of the superficial subway tunnels. The station would offer only through service, since there's no room for a yard.
The study didn't consider transportation from New Jersey.
You could still get an LIRR train into Manhattan along Water Street, if the northernmost tracks at Atlantic Ave. were extended north towards Pratt Institute, and then across the river around where the Manhattan Bridge is. That way, the only lines that would have to be crossed would be the G and the F, instead of the underground mixmaster around Borough Hall.
In hindsight, it would have been better if the MTA had built just a single level 63rd St. tunnel and put the bi-levle one beneath the Manhattan Bridge, with one level hooking up the B/D/Q between DeKalb Ave. and Canal/Grand St., while the other could be used for LIRR trains, which could come in around Pike Street, turn west on Madison to St. James Place/Pearl St., and then from there south on Pearl to the Fulton St./South Street Seaport area.
Connection to lower Manhattan??
Remember you're talking about a railroad that won't even reopen the station on rt. 110 with all the new businesses in the area!!
No one can deny that the LIRR is rather tight fisted with the dollar.
Doug aka BMTman
I said "In hindsight" as in, they should have thought of this in 1970, just after Rocky and Ronana got their hands on all of Bob Moses' TBTA money.
(Should have thought of this when Rocky and Rona got hold of Bob Moses Money)
Orignally Moses was supposed to have a role in the MTA, but then they pushed him out. Moses problem is that he came up with his ideas in the 1920s and steamrolled ahead for 50 years without noticing things had changed.
Too bad they couldn't convince him to turn his energies to mass transit, then turn him loose. We'd have had that the LIRR to GCT and the 2nd Avenue by 1973, before the fiscal crisis hit.
[Connection to lower Manhattan??
Remember you're talking about a railroad that won't even reopen the station on rt. 110 with all the new businesses in the area!!]
One thing the MTA is never cheap about--studies!
The increase of riders on the Lex could be offset by the decrease of riders on the "7" train as less people would be using Woodside, Hunterspoint Av, and LIC with direct access to Grand Central.
Actually for the Lex there is a net loss of passengers at Grand Central. From Table 9D-9 of the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS:
Number of passengers entering Grand Central from the north:
(25 x 1195) + (22 x 879) = 49,213.
Number of passengers leaving Grand Central in downtown direction:
(24 x 1119) + (21 x 615) = 39,771
[Actually for the Lex there is a net loss of passengers at Grand Central. From Table 9D-9 of the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS:
Number of passengers entering Grand Central from the north:
(25 x 1195) + (22 x 879) = 49,213.
Number of passengers leaving Grand Central in downtown direction:
(24 x 1119) + (21 x 615) = 39,771]
Interesting figures. The estimates I've seen suggest that the 63rd Street connection will add 6000 passengers to the Lex during rush hour. Even if there's a net loss of passengers at GCT, those extra 6000 people will further slow the line, and as the line slows its capacity will go down further. It's already broken, with constant delays and trains skipping stops, so I can only see it getting broken worse.
Seems to me that if they aren't going to build a Second Avenue Subway, and it sure doesn't look like they are, and if they're actually running all the trains they can on the Lex, they should ticket door holders, lengthen the platforms, and improve the signal system as necessary; otherwise we're just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
As has been said, the LIRR to GCT is being built so Long Islanders can walk from the terminal to their jobs on the East Side, not so they can pack on the Lex.
The commuter railroads now offer discouted combined monthly tickets/Metrocards. These should be made unusable at the GCT subway stop. If Metro North gains access to Penn Station, then those people who have to get on a subway anyway (ie. to go Downtown) will have an incentive to travel to Penn (or Flatbush). You'll be taking more MetroNorth riders out of GCT than putting LIRR riders in.
Otherwise, the share of Long Islanders trying to get to GCT will to huge, and you'll have empty cars to Penn.
I believe that to be fair much of the Second Ave should be built with the LIRR to GCT. But the crowding link between the two has been overplayed by advocates.
[As has been said, the LIRR to GCT is being built so Long Islanders can walk from the terminal to their jobs on the East Side, not so they can pack on the Lex.
The commuter railroads now offer discouted combined monthly tickets/Metrocards. These should be made unusable at the GCT subway stop. If Metro North gains access to Penn Station, then those people who have to get on a subway anyway (ie. to go Downtown) will have an incentive to travel to Penn (or Flatbush). You'll be taking more MetroNorth riders out of GCT than putting LIRR riders in.
Otherwise, the share of Long Islanders trying to get to GCT will to huge, and you'll have empty cars to Penn.
I believe that to be fair much of the Second Ave should be built with the LIRR to GCT. But the crowding link between the two has been overplayed by advocates.]
But how many will actually walk to their jobs? It can be quite a distance, depending.
While I can't judge the MTA's methodology, the 6,000 additional passengers estimate for the Lex doesn't sound unreasonable to me, given the number of passengers who are predicted to use GCT. For many people heading downtown, it will be a much shorter, faster route. If the Lexington Avenue weren't slightly over the edge of a breakdown, it wouldn't be a problem. As it is, it seems to me that it could be accomodated comfortably without the Second Avenue Subway, but only with some investment in the Lex.
From what I understand, though, the additional load could be accomodated by the Lexington Avenue if they put some money into it.
Actually my belief -- after alot of thought -- is that GCT LIRR service would be a waste of money. Reason: it would only serve rush-hour Suburban users, because the eastside has no afterhours or weekend attractions (unlike the westside that has Times Square, Jacob Javits and MSG). The GCT-LIRR connection would be dead on weekends. It would cost more to build that it is worth.
Manhattan on the eastside in the area of Grand Central is a ghost town on weekends. LIRR service between there and Jamaica would run near empty trains. Off-hours during the week would be much the same.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the reason for the Grand Central access is to have more access in Manhattan for the LIRR. Penn is filled to capacity and with more dual mode trains going to Manhattan they need more space for them.
The SARGE-my homepage my trainbuff page
If the LIRR to GCT is built, Long Island will be a more attractive place to live for those with high paying jobs in Manhattan relative to, say, New Jersey. Property values will rise, and the deterioration of some towns may stop or reverse. Long Island really, really needs this. A lot of its housing will hit 50 years old in the next 20 years, and things are iffy.
If the LIRR to GCT is built AND the Manhattan Bridge is cut off, Brooklyn's quality of life will fall, and you'll get an exodus. That's why I'm in favor of a plan with something for everyone. Let's expand the vitality and quality of life in the region in the aggregate, rather than just moving it around.
The East Side Access project also makes some real use out of the
63rd st tunnel. The TA's line is and will be just another duplication
of existing services provided through the 60th st and 53rd st tunnels.
Or look at it this way, the TA is building just another way to get
from Queens Blvd to Sixth ave or Broadway.
The LIRR link at least will provide a new service that is not
currently offered. It will be nice to get some benefit from the tunnel
at last.
Entertain me,
Is there any more room at Penn to build additional
tracks?
I'm pretty sure that all the current tracks are at
least at capacity. What would be useful would be if
there were more room to construct tracks at Penn. If
such a thing may happen under this new Penn Station
project, the LIRR-GCT may not have to be built.
Let's all face it-there will never be a 2nd Avenue
subway downtown and if all those downtown LIRR
commuters take the Lex, disaster will ensue.
The best choice is to bring more capacity to Penn.
Can the 7th and 8th Avenue lines handle more crowds?
It's much easier to transfer to different trains
there than at GCT because most of the subway lines
are on the west side anyway. If enough people went
to the Broadway line, that would be an excuse to
bring back express service.
Riders to the 8th Avenue could take that to the WTC
or the financial district via Broadway/Nassau-Fulton depending on which side of downtown you work on.
7th Avenue riders would get the same deal.
It would be easier on the west side because there are more lines to accmodate more people. Cramming 150,000 people onto 9 routes(6th, 7th and 8th at rush hour) is easier than putting them all on 3(Lexington) running on the same line.
And you'd get even more on the west side with
Broadway expresses.
Is there any more room at Penn to build additional tracks?
No, there's not. If there were it would have been done years ago, if only for train storage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We need East Side Access so middle income and affluent people who might otherwise move to Brooklyn will instead move to Nassau and Suffolk counties after the Manhattan Bridge fails. We need NJT access to Grand Central for the same reason -- to push the middle-class out of the city AGAIN.
Of course, even if we replaced the Manhattan Bridge, we'd still need East Side Access to improve the quality of life in the region as a whole. But for now its a re-distribution plan.
[middle income and affluent people who might otherwise move to Brooklyn will instead move to Nassau and Suffolk counties after the Manhattan Bridge fails. ]
You're right, I'd leave Park Slope if my treasured D-Train was only a shuttle to DeKalb. But I would not go to the suburbs. I think I speak for many middle-income and affluent urbanites when I say that we choose to live in the city more for the fun of it than for the easy commute. I'd simply move to Manhattan, not to the dreaded land of Highways and Turnpikes.
[We need East Side Access so middle income and affluent people who might otherwise move to Brooklyn will instead move to Nassau and Suffolk counties after the Manhattan Bridge fails. We need NJT access to Grand Central for the same reason -- to push the middle-class out of the city AGAIN.]
There's always a balancing act here between making the City more attractive to businesses that depend on commuters and making the suburbs more attractive to middle class residents. The State knows the City is its cash cow, but its answer to that seems to be to favor projects that help City businesses while screwing City residents.
Nevertheless, I'm leery about drawing the drawbridge too tight. The City is larger than its boundaries. We have to think as a region.
I'll flip the coin--NYC has a veto on the MTA's capital program, so why the hell don't we take a clue from the upstate Republicans and veto their roads unless the formula is changed to be fair to City residents?
Why do we complain about middle class residents moving to the suburbs when we don't provide them parity in schooling, taxes, and services?
Why do we spend so damn much on Medicaid, and then complain because the state makes us pay 25%?
Etc.
I'm not convinced that the LIRR needs access to Grand Central today, but I do think that it will become necessary over the next decade or so.
Most LIRR commuters heading to the east side take the train into Penn and then take the E train over to east side (if they work in the 50's or high 40's) or they walk from Penn (if they work in the 30's). There are probably quite a few who go 1 stop on the 1/2/3/9 and then take the shuttle or 7 also. Taking the LIRR to Woodside and taking the 7 is probably the fastest way -- but only if your train stops at Woodside. Most rush-hour trains from branches other than Port Washington skip Woodside.
As Paul pointed out, the need for LIRR to GCT service is to get more LIRR trains into Manhattan. You are also correct in that this potentially could put an even heavier strain on the Lex. While most LIRR passengers who work on the east side would walk from GCT, downtowners would take the Lex. Currently those who work downtown are split between Penn (if you work in the World Trade or World Financial Center) and Flatbush Ave. (if you work further east or south).
Perhaps once the LIRR gains access to GCT, they can bring back the old Zone 1A and 1B pricing that they got rid of in the 80's. (Penn was Zone 1A and had higher fares than Zone 1B -- Flatbush). With lower fares into Brooklyn as the incentive, perhaps the LIRR could keep downtowners from clogging the Lex from GCT.
Chuck
[Perhaps once the LIRR gains access to GCT, they can bring back the old Zone 1A and 1B pricing that they got rid of in the 80's. (Penn was Zone 1A and had higher fares than Zone 1B -- Flatbush). With lower fares into Brooklyn as the incentive, perhaps the LIRR could keep downtowners from clogging the Lex from GCT.]
Not to mention without an Atlantic Ave. terminal that looks like something out of a bad horror movie, or maybe high amenity hybrid superexpress service down the Atlantic Avenue branch and right into lower Manhattan, as per the RPA.
and you may want to stick to transit related subjects since you obviously don't know Chinese History or Culture from a hole in the ground...
It the PRC is so good, why are you here in the USA, To make money.
Some Mofo American always asks this....
Heres my Answer take it and shove it...
I was Born here, I realized how frigged up this pissant country is, and now I'm determined to destroy it from within...while the Motherland destroys it from without...how do you like that answer?
Sure sure death to China and all that...Same to you my friend...The Native Indians will exact revenge on your pale ass too.
Free the South!
Free Texas!
Free New England!
btw...whats your address? i'd like to send you a personal gift of my appreciation ala ex-caccp style.
Hey how do you know that I am not part Native American? You are being very prejudice my friend. But if you want to know the history, The Han have always thought China as the Center of the Earth, and everyone else is inferior. That is why they let everyone walk over them for the past 1000 years, including other Asians way before the Europeans. Learn your history my boy
Following is a list of the original station platform lengths along the IND routes running along the Fulton-Cranberry tubes and Prospect Park. Note that the two elevated stations – Smith-9th Street and Fourth Avenue – are not part of this list because this writer could not ascertain the start and end chaining codes of said stations.
Fulton-Cranberry route:
Broadway-Nassau Street : start 879+00, end 885+60
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge : A1 side start 814+40, end 821+00; A2 side start 815+00, end 821+60 (yet the northernmost and southernmost edges remain straight – I don’t understand it either)
Jay Street-Borough Hall (A and B share trackage on this station) : start 782+45, end 789+05
Prospect Park route:
Bergen Street : start 756+82, end 763+42
Carroll Street : start 732+40, end 739+00
Seventh Avenue (Brooklyn) : start 654+02, end 660+57
15th Street-Prospect Park : start 625+70, end 632+30
Fort Hamilton Parkway : start 585+40, end 591+95
Church Avenue : start 556+95, end 563+55
Next: The Fulton Street line (including the Court Street terminus that now serves as the home of the Transit Museum).
Bergen Street : start 756+82, end 763+42
Please educate me on how to read this i.e. how do I determine the platform length from these codes?
--Mark
In very simple terms you remove the + and subtract the numbers.
IE, (763+42) - (756+82) = 660 feet (11 60'cars or 10 cars with a little envelope)
The chaining marks start from a fixed point.
Joe Korman's website, I believe, has a better explanation. I am not a surveyor but I believe my method will work.
Aha -- if it isn't Conrad Misek, recently freed from the Department of City Planning. I thought I might find you here eventually.
After I talked some people at DCP into thinking that maybe something did need to be done about the bridge, and a study was commissioned, Conrad was put in charge. He did a great literature review piece, but then moved on to another job, and the project has been staggering along ever since.
Conrad: now that you are out from under the bureaucracy, what do you really think about the long term subway prospects of the Manny B, and what should be done about it? I'd be curious to know, before heading into a meeting on the subject next week.
I'm also very curious. Will the Sea Beach ever cross the Manhattan Bridge again, or am I condemned to disappointment as another icon of my Sea Beach memories goes down the drain?
Not until all 4 tracks can be used at the same time. With capacity for only 3 lines, the N train is the odd man out.
The approach sounds reasonable ... thank you!
--Mark
That's the news I read in my local paper, the Flushing Times.
Meanwhile I have assembled some photographs of its decrepit sister station, Broadway, which I use every day and will send them to state Sen. Padavan, who obtained the funds for Auburndale...
LIRR fans: note an ancient entrance sign on the 192nd Street staircase at Auburndale. Its days are numbered now.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hopefully they will extend the platforms. I remember riding an SRO train, then hearing the announcement that I had to change cars. YIKES.
Unfortunately, I think the same NIMBY's who didn't want the 7 train extended also don't want the platforms lengthened.
Having only the first 4 cars at one stop and then only the last 4 at the next stop discourages intra-Queens travel. With short platforms, the LIRR can't become the Northeast Queens subway -- or so the logic goes.
Chuck
Are people in Northeast Queens really THAT bizzare that they wouldn't want better mass transit? My guess is that once again a few SOBs drown out everyone else. There should be a referendum with all kinds of improvments, road and rail, on the budget. Most would pass -- if they failed, too bad for your neighborhood. But at least normal people might vote
I believe the platforms WILL be lengthened as there is room for it on the west side of the present platform.
Murray Hill, another short platform, has to remain short because there's nowhere to go with it.
Bayside has just been lengthened.
Broadway was lengthened at some time in the past (I'm curious what year that was).
Well, just when I thought SEPTA couldn't find another way to waste money and raise fares, they go and surpise me again!
Starting this month, a Swedish pubication group called Transit Publications Inc.(TPI) will begin printing a Monday-Friday daily called TPI Metro PA made specifically for SEPTA riders in the city and western suburbs(basically Regional Rail commuters).
The city's two major papers, the Inquirer and the Daily News, say publically they welcome the challenge but worry it can hurt circulation of their papers, specifically the Inquirer, which has had the largest drop in circulation of any major paper in the country.
There are two dailies, two free weeklies, books, magazines and a host of other newspaper and other print media adjacent to virtually every rail station in SEPTA territory. Why on Earth do they feel the need to print their own daily? Does anyone think it'l be patronized well? I'm really interested to hear what my fellow SEPTA riders think of all this.
The story is availible in the December 30 issue of the City Paper.
Subway Steve's Homepage-now found on the Subway Webring!
Since I live in Stockholm, home of the original (called "Metro"), I'll be interested to see how this works out in Philly.
Metro has been very successful, so far, in Stockholm, Gothenburg (on the west coast of Sweden, the second largest city in the country), Prague, and Malmö (at the southern tip of Sweden, third largest city in Sweden). I used to read it regularly (before I started working full-time on transit, and commuting at hours at which it's either not out yet, or already run out) and like it quite well. I believe they're starting a Dutch edition this year as well.
BTW, unless something is very different in Philadelphia, this isn't SEPTA's initiative, nor its newspaper. In Stockholm, the transit agency has an informational page with news and articles in the weekday issues of Metro, but it pays for that page, and the rest of the paper is just a newspaper pretty much like any other, not a house organ for the transit agency.
When the Philadelphia edition comes out, I'd be interested in getting a copy from someone there -- perhaps we can arrange a trade? Anyone interested in transit stuff of any kind from Stockholm?
-- Tim
Steve, I'll be anxiously awaiting my copy. Being a bus rider, I'll probably only see issues 2-3 months behind their issue date. (You may think I'm kidding, but this fall I was on a bus on my line which had timetables from Jan '98 in the Take One pockets! Not that the schedules change all that drastically, or that they have any validity, but I guess the operator decided to take some initiative and grabbed a handful of schedules at the depot for the racks. Of course, as I noted, several riders grabbed them, probably thinking they were new issues.)
Tim, if I see one, I'll let you know and hopefully will be able to pass it along to you.
That would be terrific, Bob, thanks. If you'd be interested in any transit stuff from Stockholm (maps, schedules, etc.), let me know.
-- Tim
Has there ever been a documented case of a passenger receiving a beatdown or mugging from a group of spirited young people when in an R46 car he/she couldn't escape, because the doors between cars are locked? I'm not worried about it...just curious if anyone is aware of such a case.
I did see someone manage to get stuck between locked cars once. I told the conductor when I got off at the next stop, but didn't wait around to see how long the train was stopped while he walked back to let the guy out.
A woman was raped in the last car of an OPTO G a year ago. Had the doors been unlocked it may not have happened.
The TA has left the storm door windows in rubber rather than metal frames on these cars in the theory that in an emergency they can be kicked out to allow exit.
But you'd have to be both strong enough and smart enough to do it.
Funny, I saw an add today "What if YOU are the sick passenger?" It said to tell the conductor (Or in short trains, the Train Operator). How precisely does one do that on an R-46? You have to get off the train anyway unless you're in the right car, and at that point, why bother getting back on? Does it occur to these people that the only way to communicate with another car is with the emergency cord?
Does it occur to these people that the only way to communicate with another car is with the emergency cord?
If there is a sick passenger, you could use the emer. cord to "communicate." Of course, wait until the train is stopped in the next station, and then pull the cord. Run along the platform to inform the conductor of the trouble.
These cars need emergency intercoms, which I saw were installed on an experimental basis on some R42 J trains about 4-5 years ago. I also think both R110 car types have these systems.
Ah, yes! The good old "Customer Assistance Strips". The strip alerted the crew and activated an alarm which had to be reset by the crew before resuming service. I had that train once and took it out of service after 5 stops. For some time, ENY refused to run that particular train during school hours, but after control center got tired of writing late train and ABD reports, the CAS was removed. No knowledge why our friends in Car Equipment couldn't rewire it to the buzzer circuit.
Wow, I remember those strips..I was in CEE at the time and all I
could do was laugh at the proposals. What the crew needs is
video cameras in the cars so they can see what is happening.
Does anyone remember the long-defunct end door release switches
INSIDE the R-46 cars??
I actually do remember the switches near the top of the car and next to the door. I believe they removed those switches the same time they took out the fire extinguishers that were in the car as well. I question the reliability of the switches on then outside. However, I remember hearing that the police are supposed to have the keys to unlock them in an emergency. Anyone know if that holds true today?
Yeah cops still get keys. Remember that annoying alarm when the button was used? Or if the cord was pulled?
I liked the original switches better. They had a capacitor built in so we could use two hands, one for the wayside radio and the other for the door handle to cross through while changing ends. I remember the alarm on the R46 well. At least they got rid of the skate keys.
Ouch! The alarm...BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP. When were the caps
removed? At the same time as the alarms? The end door
unlocks should be on a momentary circuit like the L1
and H wires, this way you could unlock, change ends and relock.
Or did they do that already?
NOPE! Still need a second man to stand by the key switch while the first walks through.
Well maybe you can submit a circuit via the employee suggestion
program :)
All that's needed is a simple latching relay. Make the contacts in the key switch momentary to facilitate this. problem solved. Soloution ignored.
You need a circuit like the lighting momentary circuit: apply
B+ to the trainline, relay comes on. Let go, relay stays
on via stick circuit with a series resistor. Turn it off by
grounding the trainline. I'm sure if it were suggested it would
get turned down though..
I see you're completely familiar with the Transit Authority's procedures!
[Funny, I saw an add today "What if YOU are the sick passenger?" It said to tell the conductor (Or in short trains, the Train
Operator). How precisely does one do that on an R-46? You have to get off the train anyway unless you're in the right car, and at that point, why bother getting back on? Does it occur to these people that the only way to communicate with another car is with the emergency cord?]
Which is why the TA should be forced (they'll never do it voluntarily) to put emergency notification buttons in every car. PATH has long done it, there's absolutely no reason in the world why the subway can't either. Maybe it'll take a huge judgment to get them moving.
On the Customer Alarm Train of R42's, ran on the J line, there were so many false alarms it was obscene! That is why it was taken out! We have too much vandalism on our trains to make it work properly.
many stations have talk back bnoxes where we can talk from the booth to the platform. Most are false alarms I watch the monitors in the stations where they exist and see the person hit the button and run. If they answer I get " I wanted to see what happened if I pushed this button" or "I did not knwo they worked" or "expletive deleted you!"
Yes- we do answer every call in case they are a real call.
Am I mistaken? I thought she was raped at the Smith 9th St. station after she got off the train.
No, she got on at Smith-9th and it hapened between there and Bergen where the assailant got off.
Or should I say where the police would have apprehended him had the conductor who would have been riding in that car of a four car train been, had it not been an OPTO run.
I wish they would put metal frames around the cab doors on the R46.A few times, I've had to ask people not to lean on the glass. Falling cab door glass is very common.I hear very little about storm door glass falling out.
There is a reason that not only is there no metal frame but the glass is not glass. If you check, you'll also find that the #2 end of the 'A' car and both ends of the 'B' car use poly-carb. end door glass. This is so customers can easily kick out the window in an emergency. Of course, if there were signs up to explain this, people would just to see if they could.
Granted, but there is an inordinate amount of RCI calls at 179 St. and Continental daily calling for cab window glass needing to be reinstalled. I know if I'm operating an R46 (and I see the "plastic" glass buckling all the time with a crowded train due to customers' leaning against it) and all of a sudden the glass comes crashing thru, it would be an unexpected shock which may startle me and cause me to "drop the button". If a student is operating and his instructor is standing, that crashing glass would cause injury to the person standing in the cab.
I have had it happen many times in the rush. When it does I paddle the door open until an RCI can attend to it.
It most often happens because the last man to put it in didn't have enough to lace the rubber all the way around. There isn't always enough avaiable.
So in other words, you'd expect someone panicing to do the obvious, which is to start beating on the windows till they give way.
-Hank
The slashing on a D train crossing the Manhattan Bridge a few months ago comes to mind. If it happened on a Q train with R40 cars then maybe nobody would have gotten hurt, as an escape route is handy.
Rule of thumb: when riding on a train of R44/46/68 cars, always ride in the car with the conductor in it, so you will be seen by him should the need for help arise.
The most dangerous spot in the entire system to be in is in the rear car of a Manhattan bound R44 A train going from Broad Channel to Howard Beach about 15-20 minutes after Beach Channel High School lets out.
"The slashing on a D train crossing the Manhattan Bridge a few months ago comes to mind."
Poor example, Chris. In that case, it was the perp who got the beating when he couldn't get away.
Well, I guess locked cars have both benefits and drawbacks.
[The most dangerous spot in the entire system to be in is in the rear car of a Manhattan bound R44 A train going from Broad Channel to Howard Beach about 15-20 minutes after Beach Channel High School lets out.]
Some of the School Security officers should be assigned to ride subways in known problem situations like this one.
Cops are usually in the stations (like they are on the god-awful B during times that high schools let out), but once the train leaves you're on your own.
It probably is. I was once a student at Beach Channel back in the R-10 days on the CC.
It was quite often my "classmates" would throw out the fiberglass seats onto the roadbed or pull the rear cars' stormdoor open and toss the seats out that way.
After the seats were open they would kick out windows or turn the snap switches and pull the emergency handles to open side doors while the crew would be uaware as the 10's could do that and not loose indication.
Animals they were. I have been out there in recent years with Rock Park A jobs and the kids are worse today.
Heck, you wanna see real animals, put in a pick for the B line coming out of Stillwell Ave from 3-4 PM on schooldays. Bay 50th St. is an absolute zoo and that entire line in Brooklyn is pure hell to ride at these hours.
I have suffered through it. The police forbid the train to make both stops Bay 50th and 25th Avenue. It's one or the oher but not both. Else both crowds of kids will destroy the train. And each other.
Here's some odd items at the TA Musuem:
(1) Subway related skate boards (How many of these do you think get sold?)
(2) Subway Map shower curtain (Okay, not too bad an idea but it is an outdated map)
Anyone else with similar observations?
Doug aka BMTman
The shower curtain is too small at that.
JRC
At least there's no doubt that it's an authentic TA product. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Well, you never know when you might have a desire to plan your next subway trip in the shower.
[Here's some odd items at the TA Musuem:
(1) Subway related skate boards]
A rather odd choice in that skateboard in stations is strictly forbidden. It's sort of like selling beer at a highway rest area.
A rather odd choice in that skateboard in stations is strictly forbidden. It's sort of like selling beer at a highway rest area.
Yeah! Right? Skateboarding in the subway is not only hazardous to your fellow passengers, its also an easy way to wind up on the tracks!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
With the amount of dogs that I have been seeing riding the subways with their owners, maybe an official TA Dog Carrier or Crate would be the next item the transit musuem stores should sell. I get into many arguements trying to keep these dog owners off my train. The clerks at the station booths are susposed to stop them, but they do nothing. It then falls in our lap- the conductors. Many dog owners state that there are no signs banning dogs from riding the subways as long as they are on a leash! Maybe the TA needs to begin installing signs at every station! Otherwise, all of us conductors are in for arguements every day- hopefully one angry dog owner will not let his or her dog go after us. It's happened to many mail carriers already- we're next if the TA doesn't do something
With the amount of dogs that I have been seeing riding the subways with their owners, maybe an official TA Dog Carrier or Crate would be the next item the transit musuem stores should sell. I get into many arguements trying to keep these dog owners off my train. The clerks at the station booths are susposed to stop them, but they do nothing. It then falls in our lap- the conductors. Many dog owners state that there are no signs banning dogs from riding the subways as long as they are on a leash! Maybe the TA needs to begin installing signs at every station! Otherwise, all of us conductors are in for arguements every day- hopefully one angry dog owner will not let his or her dog go after us. It's happened to many mail carriers already- we're next if the TA doesn't do something
If everything else wasn't enough. Now the subway is going to the dogs!
Why not have the Police called? You have a radio, why not call for assistance. Once these individuals get a ticket they won't comment that there are no signs. Ignroance of the law is not a legal excuse.
Tell me - how many "No Smoking" signs are posted in a subway station?
I bet you could count them on one hand. Yet smoking on the system is rare and tickets are issued to violators when caught. What are dog owners going to do when the police come by? Stick the dog under a coat?
Section 1050.9(h)(1) (this may have been updated) of the official Rules of Conduct:
No person shall bring any animal on or into any conveyance or facility
unless enclosed in a container and carried in a manner which would not annoy other passengers.
(h)(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to working dogs for law enforcement agencies, to servoce animals which have been trained or are being trained to aid or guide a person with a disability and are accompanying persons with disabilities, or to service animals which are being trained by a professional trainer.
All service animals must be harnessed or leashed.
_________________________________
I am not going to type the rest but Trainers must have proof that the animal is being trained. A service animal must have a service animal licesnse issued by the Dept of Health or other permit as issued by the MTA.
------------------------ Just letting off some steam
Hmmmm! My wife said she needed a new shower curtain.
I wonder if they do mail order...
Hmmmm! My wife said she needed a new shower curtain.
I wonder if they do mail order...
Even for those who aren't railfans, its quite a conversation piece.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And, just think, you'd have no problem trying to find matching wallpaper with all the colors on the map!
--Mark
And, just think, you'd have no problem trying to find matching wallpaper with all the colors on the map!
--Mark
Use subway maps themselves for the matching wallpaper.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The chocolate bars they have wrapped in a piece of paper that has a badly reproducted Metrocard logo on it are pretty funny. They'll market anything.
The chocolate bars they have wrapped in a piece of paper that has a badly reproducted Metrocard logo on it are pretty funny. They'll market anything.
I think I'll sell computers with the Metrocard logo. How about mouse pads?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The City's store at the Times Square Info Center sells Mouse Pads with a portion of the Map on it. I am suprised the Museum hasn't picked that one up yet.
They've had them there before. I thought about buying one, but I've got more pads than mice as it is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am currently using a nice mouse pad map of WashDC's WMATA system. Comes in handy when discussions come around about specific lines, stations, etc! ;-)
I have never bought a mousepad.
To many freebies!
-Hank
When they start selling cans of spray paint with the MTA logo on them, then you can say they'll market anything.
Or box cutters.......
LOL
or cheap stick pens, and postums notes
Rail-fanned to Long Beach last night and noticed that the switches
into the station at Long Beach appear to have been automated. Used to
be the conductor had to get off the train and throw the switches. Now
there is a series of white, red and amber lights. How do they work?
Wow. That would be huge progress for the Long Beach Branch. Depending on which track you were coming in on, the conductor had to hop out and throw the switch as many as three times.
Plenty of people who live in Long Beach have historically driven to Island Park and taken the train from there to avoid the ridiculous stopping and starting getting into the Long Beach station. You could actually get off in Island Park, get in your car, wait for the train to cross in front of you and then drive to Long Beach and drive right past the station before the train had even made the platform.
When I lived out there, that switch silliness was enough to put me on a bus to Far Rockaway to take the A train. It took less time and cost less too.
Chuck
How about Hempstead? I haven't used that line in ages. I remember the engineer used to get out and throw the switches. Do they do it now?
Now, the conductor gets out and keys the switches instead of hand flipping them. Or at least that's the way the Port Washington line is/was.
I always get a kick out of how the LIRR's so advanced in some respects (dual modes, computerized stuff, electrification), yet retains some pretty acient stuff (towers, wayside signals (position light, no less), hand throwns in yards.)
[I always get a kick out of how the LIRR's so advanced in some respects (dual modes, computerized stuff, electrification), yet
retains some pretty acient stuff (towers, wayside signals (position light, no less), hand throwns in yards.)]
It's amusing to see Speonk- and Montauk-bound trains getting written orders at PD Tower in Patchogue. No doubt this arrangment hasn't changed significantly in 75 years. Oh, and it's also amusing to see the condition of PD Tower - any private structure in similar condition would have been condemned and demolished as an immediate risk to human life.
I saw an old diesel the other day stopping at Roslyn, it's brakes sounded horrible, and the train was rusted and in my opinion in worse condition than the subway cars were even in the graffitti days.
Only can the LIRR get away with keeping such old and unsafe junk trains rolling.
The "Leaning Tower of PD" has been that way for over thirty years.
In their defense there's a good reason why that's done that way. Would any private company, as you so thoughtfully pointed out pay over 1.5 million dollars a mile to signal a line that sees a handful of trains a day?
It's not fiscally responsible to spend limited capitol dollars when the diesel fleet looks the way it did.
Special orders given over the radio are also received by the conductors on the LIRR, written on the appropriate forms, communicated by the conductor to the engineer and become part of the record.
I know this seems fussy and old fashioned, but compare the safety record of the LIRR to the NYCTA in recent years.
Hi Folks, Can anyone tell me what year the Bay Shore station was rebuilt to a high level platform? And why they picked this station? I remember going there in 1986 for a vacation to fire island with my dad. It was already High level back then. I just dont understand why the LIRR never bothered with the rest of the stations until the stupid looking bi level garbage came into town? Anyone know? Thank you. PS What kind of neighborhood is it in?
I don't recall the date, but if you remember it high level in 1986, it couldn't have been very long before that.
It was made high-level because it is the busiest station for Fire Island. Huge numbers of people get on/off during the summer there for taxis to ferries for a half-dozen or more island communities.
The neighborhood isn't great but neither is it actively threatening. A huge number of old homes were just bulldozed for new housing (probably low- moderate- income condo style stuff) and the aquarium they hope to build there.
[It was made high-level because it is the busiest station for Fire Island. Huge numbers of people get on/off during the summer there for taxis to ferries for a half-dozen or more island communities.]
Sayville station also gets a good deal of Fire Island traffic, bound for the communities of Cherry Grove and Fire Island Pines. Until recently, many of these riders would not have been welcome to work at Cracker Barrel restaurants - see the interesting thread at misc.transport.road :-)
Seriously, it looks as if the LIRR had high hopes for increased ridership at Bay Shore, connected no doubt to the start of dual-mode direct service to Penn Station. Parking lots at Bay Shore and also at Islip were repaved in anticipation of more usage. Having ridden on the morning dual-mode from Speonk (it stops at Pachogue, where I board, at about 6:40 and arrive at Penn at around 8:25), I'd have to say that the strategy has been unsuccessful so far. The train doesn't become anything close to crowded until it stops at Babylon, which always has been a busy station. And Ronkonkoma trains remain as hideous as always.
"Seriously, it looks as if the LIRR had high hopes for increased ridership at Bay Shore, connected no doubt to the start of
dual-mode direct service to Penn Station."
That may change once the LIRR does a little bit of work publicizing the availability of one-seat rides. I saw that Bob Anderson noted a "stealth-dual mode" (listed in the schedule as a traditional Jamaica change, but in reality a direct Penn to Port Jeff train) on the Port Jeff line, and I saw some evidence of a potential stealth dual mode on the Oyster Bay line through some information on the LIRR website.
It seems as though they are sneaking these things into service to work out the kinks. Once they're confident, we'll probably see some advertising of direct service.
Chuck
[I saw that Bob Anderson noted a "stealth-dual mode" (listed in the schedule as a traditional Jamaica change, but in reality a direct Penn to Port Jeff train) on the Port Jeff line]
It was a direct train from Penn to PJ again today (same equipment as yesterday)
[re popularity of LIRR dual-mode service to NYP]
[It seems as though they are sneaking these things into service to work out the kinks. Once they're confident, we'll probably see some advertising of direct service.]
What kinks? The dual-mode locomotives were extensively tested before being put in service, presumably the LIRR has decided that they're sufficiently reliable. I see no reason why the LIRR doesn't promote dual-mode service as much as possible. Something's got to be done, and quickly, to take the pressure off Ronkonkoma.
"What kinks?..."
I have no idea. As you mentioned, there should have already been testing done. But they probably also did plenty of "pre-testing" with the original dual modes and look at those results.
My guess is that with the next set of new schedules (February or March?) you'll see considerably more dual mode service as well as some advertising and news articles hyping the service change. Then, finally you may get some relief on the Ronkonkoma line.
Chuck
The LIRR Bay Shore station was high-platformed some time before early 1985, as that was when I last visited Bay Shore. I grew up in that area and rode the LIRR from there to LIC daily.
I don't know about now, but the neighborhood around the station used to be old but decent -- until you went EAST of the station and then it was always a rundown, seedy neighboorhood that I didn't feel safe in, even back in the late 1960's.
I'd rather have a Bi-level than an old diesel train anyday. The old diesels look like "rust trains" that are on their way to the junkyard.
When oh when will the LIRR get rid of all of them?
Actually I like both types. My favorite trip was an old diesel from LIC to Jamaica on the Montauk Branch changing for a bi tri-level at Jamaica to Mineola where I usually get off. The old LIC Branch reminds me of the Hooterville Cannonball from Pettycoat Junction so the old stuff is a natural.
By the way, there is a very exclusive part of Bay Shore called Brightwaters.
By the way, there is a very exclusive part of Bay Shore called Brightwaters
Bay Shore has genuine mansions south of Montauk Highway. However, Brightwaters is adjacent to, but not part of, Bay Shore. It is an incorporated village with its own mayor and municipal government.
Bay shore is a hamlet, that is, an unincorporated part of the Town of Islip, which is part of its problem.
Bay Shore and Brightwaters do share a school district.
I actually lived in Brightwaters (Penataquit Drive east of Pine Drive which was the west side of Brightwaters). It was a separate entity from Bay Shore, though the Bay Shore Public Library was actually in Brightwaters (s.e. corner of Windsor Avenue & Montauk Highway).
Not only do they share school districts, but also the Bay Shore F.D. will do the honors when your house catches fire.
Of course, Brightwaters is policed by Suffolk County P.D.
Ok, I've been wanting to ask this for a while, so here it goes...
Last summer while I was lost ^h^h^h^h riding around in the area slightly north of Boston (salem, lynn, etc), I noticed a new kind of signal I've not seen before...
A flashing green light.
Now, what the HECK does a flashing green mean? Go really fast?
I mean, yeah, I come to an intersection. It's red. Ok, stop. Or it's yellow, ok, get ready to stop (floor it). Or it's green. Go. Flashing red's treated like a stop sign,. and flashing yellow's a caution. But what the heck is a flashing green? I never saw a flashing green before in my life. I don't think that NY state book they give you in driver's ed covers it, and I don't recal any signs explaining.
So, to any Boston area people (Hi Todd!), what's a flashing green mean?
The only place I've seen a flashing green traffic light was in Toronto. There, it signified that opposing traffic faced a red light, so one could make a left turn safely.
The flashing green in Canada means just that (in this country a green arrow gives the same indication).
Perhaps the flashing green in New England is a holdover which means the same thing? I've seen flashing green in Oregon and Washington, which is used when the intersection should be approached cautiously due to grades, a "shelf" condition through the intersection (i.e. you are on a downgrade but the intersection is flat, then the road continues on a downgrade past the intersection, thus it would be best to slow down rather than bottom out).
was it just one bulb?? or a 3-bulb stop light that was broken??? I think in some small towns with a side street coming into a main road...the main road gets the flashing green(proceed at speed but keep your eyes open??) and the side road gets the red(stop and watch for cars flying down the street?) :)
i have run into many situations when the lights at the intersection go down..one side flashes green, and the other side flashes red.
or what time was it?? Commonwealth Ave late at night(around 2am), the signals used to "shut off." I think they would go to flashing yellow...but the same idea....
I think that the flashing greens are unique to Massachusetts -- I've never seen them in any other part of the US.
Of course, given the general lack of notice that most Boston drivers give to traffic signs and signals, I doubt that any of them really has any idea of what a flashing green signifies, or really cares. :-)
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, Ed, parts of Delaware and (I believe) Maryland have flashing green lights.
They're used at intersections where people can make a left turn ONLY off a divided highway. (In other words, a partial intersection.) The red arrow for the left turn flashes, as does the green light for the main branch of traffic. The left turners must stop before proceeding, while those on the main road must be cautious of motorists to their LEFT. (Translation: slow down about 5-10 mph, just in case.)
In heavy traffic, the flashing is turned off.
It's a time-saving device. It prevents one guy from waiting minutes for a green signal. If it's a country highway, and no one's coming, why wait?
It's a pedestrian crossing. It may be actuated by a button. The light goes from flashing to steady green and then turns yellow and then red. The flashing rather than a steady green alerts drivers that it is a crossing rather than an intersection.
I'm surprised that the signal escaped the traffic signal standardization of the mid 1960's. Prior to that there were some quaint New England customs - like the red and yellow light. Probably the classic from that era was: "whenever two vehicles approach an intersection at the same time the vehicle entering the inersection first shall have the right of way."
It is (or at least, was) legit to have a flashing green at an intersection where there was a crosswalk.
A couple of years ago, after reconstruction but before a regular traffic light was installed, the Y-intersection of Garden Street and Concord Ave in Cambridge had a flashing green in two directions and a flashing red (I think) in the third. I took great joy in pushing the crosswalk button when crossing that intersection. Most drivers had no idea what was going on, and once after I pushed the button a driver ran the resulting red light and got a ticket from a police car waiting at the next corner.
Funny you bring this subject up... Earlier today I was pondering the flashing green traffic signals at the intersection of Logan Boulevard and Fullerton Avenue here in Chicago, and trying to remember just what the hell they were supposed to mean.
If I remember correctly, they mean that cars traveling in a certain direction must yield to other traffic, while cars going in all other directions may proceed. There's a sign there saying what the deal is, but it escapes me offhand.
But then, the Logan / Fullerton intersection is rather complicated, so the meaning of the flashing green signals may be specific to just that one location and have no bearing on what happens in Boston. Dunno...
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Remember when NYC had two-light stoplights on each corner? They would flash red and green simultaneously instead of the missing yellow.
There are still a couple of these on Liberty Avenue under the el.
The two colors would *not* be flashing or blinking but rather both would be lit up at the same time. In order the sequence went: Green, Green and Red, Red. The two colors being lit is the equivalent of the Yellow ina 3 color traffic light. I grew up in east Flatbush and my corner had one of these for about 4 years till the city finally put in a 3 color light. There were plenty of others around including all of 5th ave in manhattan. (5th ave's were sort of gold in color rather than the yellow that became common under Traffic Czar Barnes.
I do have a question in this line: Why(and when) did the Walk/Dont Walk signals go from red and green to the present orange and white?
ps: traffic signal trivia- the red and green are not "pure" colors--the red has some orange in it and the green has some blue for the benefit of color blind individuals. Later on the feds mandated that red be on the top if mounted vertically or the left if horizontally mounted.
There may still be some 2-color lights in NYC...I seem to recall
some under the el in Ozone Park.
The current generation of walk/don't walk signs was installed
starting in the late 1970s.
I remember that Jamaica Ave intersections had these red/green only lights at it's intersections until about 1985.
>>>I remember that Jamaica Ave intersections had these red/green only lights at it's intersections until
about 1985. <<<
Were those under the el? Liberty Avenue still has some of those. Check 'em out at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/LAMPS/Stoplights/stoplights.html
I know. I ran a couple of red lights not knowing they were there......
3TM
Are there still 2-color signals along the Park Drives in Central Park? (And I don't remember if they were for the cars on the Drive or the crosswalks...?) That was the first and only place I've ever seen simultaneous red and green as a substitute for yellow.
There are still plenty in the Rockaways, noteably under the elevated there. The interesting thing is, the first time I saw one, I firgured out immediately what the red/green meant - it's actually a fairly intuitive signal.
What I'm waiting for (though I doubt anyone will do it soon), is a single LED based light that puts all 3 colors in one little signal thing.
Speaking of which, I've seen some pretty awful turn signals at intersections (you know, the ones with the really thin arrows that go green, yellow, then off)
Actually, I've seen some pretty awful intersections, period. I'm statring to think more and more that "traffic engineering" is bs...
All the 2 color lights under the el in rockaway have been replaced. There was an improvement project for the roadway. Left turn lanes, new road markings. etc.
There are still some, however, along Shore Front Parkway in the low B100s by the high rises. At least there were in November.
There still might be some on Liberty Avenue in the 120s, Richmond Hill.
The two color signals are still under the el South of 111 Street. I used them as flashcards for my NORAC exam at NJT. Are they still using the neon bulbs in Nassau? I remember the oversized walk/don't walk signs that flickered on cold days and wondered how much those bulbs had costed. Are there any places left in New York where the walk sign illuminates only when the request button is pushed?
Actually, I have never seen a pushbutton on a strret corner that will actually change the stoplight, and I remember when they were first installed back in the mid 60s when Iwas a kid. There seem to be fewer and fewer of them.
Kevin, I read once that the push-buttons at crosswalks in NYC weren't intended to change the light. What it does is gives you more time to cross before it changes from green. On the other hand on Long Island they do change the light. If you want to feel powerful push the button on Hempstead Tnpk at the crosswalk at Eisenhower Park. It changes instantly as soon as you push it. Otherwise the Tnpk traffic has a continuous steady green.
The SARGE-my homepage
my Transit buff page
try my COLOR QUIZ
>>>If you want to feel powerful push the button on Hempstead
Tnpk at the crosswalk at Eisenhower Park. It changes instantly as soon as you push it. Otherwise the
Tnpk traffic has a continuous steady green. <<<
A small taste of power is a dangerous thing. Soon the pedestrians in Long Island will think they're in charge!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, I have never seen a pushbutton on a strret corner that will actually change the stoplight, and I remember when they were first installed back in the mid 60s when Iwas a kid. There seem to be fewer and fewer of them.
The buttons are probably not hooked up to any circuits. They probably have them so that you'll think you can change the light by pushing them. Hey, it works. Push the button long enough and the light will change. Of course, it would change anyway. It just gives people a psychological uplift, making them think that they had something to do with the light changing.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There are fewer and fewer of them. I took a snapshot of one in Flushing this afternoon which may eventually wind up on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[The buttons are probably not hooked up to any circuits. They probably have them so that you'll think you can change the light by pushing them. Hey, it works. Push the button long enough and the light will change. Of course, it would change anyway. It just gives people a psychological uplift, making them think that they had something to do with the light changing.]
From what I have observed, that's not true (at least here in Nassau County). If you don't push the button and if there are no cars stopped at the red light on the cross street, the light will not change. The light will not change immediately, but it will change at the start of the next cycle if you push the button.
Hey Bob, I sometimes ride a motorcycle. I have 2, a Harley and a Yamaha. Although the Harley is heavy enough to change the light when I'm on my Yamaha at some Nassau corners the light will never change until a car comes. Same thing with turning arrows.
In the city the pedestrian buttons do not change the light, it just gives you more time to cross before it changes to yellow.
I've seen the little push-buttons being placed on some recently installed signals here and there. Once in a while there are a few signals that are still activated by push-buttons, but the one's I've seen are for intersections that have crosswalks and no through street.
One somewhere on 7th Avenue near Dyker Beach Golf Course is activated by push-buttons to this day. One prank me and my friends used to do back when I was in High School was whenever we passed by this light was to push the button and just keep walking along the sidewalk w/o crossing the street. We thought it was pretty hilarous to look back and see all the frustrated speed-demons heading for the Belt Parkway being forced to stop at a mysterious red signal with no pedestrians crossing.
Silly stuff I know, but it was good for a laugh or two on a boring evening or afternoon of just wandering around the 'hood :)
So that was you!!!!
A common activity among students at Stetson University in DeLand, Florida is to push the crosswalk button at the intersection on campus, and to count how many cars get backed up at the red light as a result. Last I heard, the school record was something like 40 cars.
I guess it beats cow-tipping. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I've been in towns with painted crosswalks between intersections. If you step into the street, the cars have to stop for you!
Imagine such a situation in NYC and Nassau? The pedestrians in charge?
Rudy never thought of this...instead his first thought was to restrict the pedestrians.
www.forgotten-ny.com
According to my daughter, in Nevada the automobiles have the right-of-way over pedestrians anywhere, anytime that the pedestrian does not have an explicit walk signal. You can't get sued for hitting one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According to my daughter, in Nevada the automobiles have the right-of-way over pedestrians anywhere, anytime that the pedestrian does not have an explicit walk signal. You can't get sued for hitting one.
That is odd. I thought traffic laws regarding pedestrians were pretty much standard across the United States. The pedestrian is supposed to have the right of way over the automobile. Of course, this is hardly ever practiced in New York City. But, what goes around comes around. Those same motorists that terrorize pedestrians, themselves find themselves dodging vehiculsr traffic that won't give them the right of way.
NYC TRANSIT
I found out about it when I started to cross in a marked crosswalk a couple of years ago and she held me back - there was no signal for anyone, therefore the cars had the right of way. Her husband thinks it's great ... I'm not so sure. Beats the heck out of waiting for kids that stand in the middle of the crosswalk just so they can hold up traffic, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The pedestrian is supposed to have the right of way over the automobile.
Not even true in NY State. A pedestrian has the right of way only at a marked or an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection. A pedestrian must obey a walk/dont walk signal. If there is a traffic light at that crosswalk, then the pedestrian has the right of way when the signal is in his favor. A pedestrian may cross against a traffic light (as opposed to a walk/dont walk sign) but must yield the right of way. If a pedestrian must yield, if he crosses outside a crosswalk or an intersection.
I was in LA a few years ago. We were on Hollywood Blvd. The light turned red. The flock of peds stayed put at the red, even though there wasn't a car in sight coming the other way. My companion said they were obeying the light for fear of being ticketed.
It was silly.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was in LA a few years ago. We were on Hollywood Blvd. The light turned red. The flock of peds stayed put at the red, even though there wasn't a car in sight coming the other way. My companion said they were obeying the light for fear of being ticketed.
It was silly.
Like I just responded to Stephen Bauman, my mother got a jaywalking ticket in NYC (Manhattan) back in the 1960's. However, I myself never heeded those laws. they are silly. What are they going to do to you if you don't pay the ticket. My mother never had a drivers license or a car. They couldn't revoke any license. BTW, she paid the stupid ticket. I don't remember whether it was $5 or $10.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Jaywalking tickets were $2 until they were raised to $50 last year.
Jaywalking tickets were $2 until they were raised to $50 last year.
You would think the police have more important "crimes" to worry about. Do they still issue tickets for this nonsense?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Do they still issue tickets for this nonsense?
Of course. His honor has proclaimed it a "Quality of Life" issue.
Of course. His honor has proclaimed it a "Quality of Life" issue.
How much is the fine for not bowing before King Rudolph I? Is it a fine, or are you beheaded for such a display of disrespect for the Monarch?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not even true in NY State. A pedestrian has the right of way only at a marked or an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection. A pedestrian must obey a walk/dont walk signal. If there is a traffic light at that crosswalk, then the pedestrian has the right of way when the signal is in his favor. A pedestrian may cross against a traffic light (as opposed to a walk/dont walk sign) but must yield the right of way. If a pedestrian must yield, if he crosses outside a crosswalk or an intersection.
That's what I meant. I thought it was implied. However, most motorists won't yield the right of way to pedestrians, even when the walk sign is lit. I guess I should have been more specific in my post. BTW, I thought crossing outside the crosswalk was called jaywalking and was a ticketable offense? Back in the 1960's, my mother got a ticket for jaywalking. I remember the public service ads on TV when I was a kid - "Cross at the green, not in between".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I remember the public service ads on TV when I was a kid - "Cross at the green, not in between".
I also received a jaywalking ticket about 20 to 25 years ago. I was walking to the subway for my morning commute into the City and it was drizzling. A cop was directing traffic and slavishly following the Walk/Dont Walk sign - regardless of traffic conditions. I walked up three car lengths from the crosswalk and crossed in the middle of the block. The cop took exception to this challenge to his authority and issued me a summons. I went to court to challenge the summons.
All traffic offenses not involving an automobile were handled by civil court in those days. This meant that a trial took place in an old courthouse on lower Broadway (Manhattan) even though the incident took place in Queens. The City was represented by an assistant Corporation Counsel. The cop told the truth. During my cross examination, I established 4 points: it was raining; I crossed at least 50 feet from the crosswalk, him and the traffic signal; there were no oncoming cars in the street at the time I crossed; and my demeanor was correct and polite at all times. I showed the regulation to the judge and asked that the case be dismissed.
He refused and I took the stand in my own defense. I recounted my version which was roughly equivalent to the cop's statement. I emphasized the rain, the lack of traffic, the fact that the subway station was a short block away and that I went 1/4 block away from the intersection to avoid a confrontation. The Corporation Counsel asked me during the cross examination whether I had heard the expression "Cross at the green not in between." and what it meant. My reply was that I had of course heard it but that it was advertising and that I had learned not to believe everything in advertising copy. I also asked the green what, since "green" was obviously an adjective without any noun to modify. The judge felt that enough of the court's time had been expended by this time. He gave me an admonition about being careful crossing the streets and dismissed the case.
N.B. I was young and naive at that time. Everyone was paid for his time during my trial - judge, corporation counsel and cop. I had to take comp. time for my appearance. Now that I'm old and cynical I'd pay the two bucks and be done with it. One final sad postscript: a few years later the cop was shot and killed in the line of duty.
Kevin, it's the law in New York State that automobiles must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, both marked and unmarked.
Cities may be exempt from this rule, I'm not sure.
Some villages, like Farmingdale and Sayville, post this rule on signs at some crosswalks, and people do, indeed, stop.
In other places, like one of the two main streets in my village, you'll see people stop when someone is waiting to cross, especially if they're elderly or are hauling kids. I suspect most of these people are doing it to be nice and aren't aware it's the law.
What I'm waiting for (though I doubt anyone will do it soon), is a single LED based light that puts all 3 colors in one little signal thing.
I don't think you will ever see that. Colorblind people rely on the position, rather than the color of a traffic light to be able to tell what color it is. They are always red on top, yellow in the middle and green on the bottom.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>>There are still plenty in the Rockaways, noteably under the elevated there. The interesting thing is,
the first time I saw one, I firgured out immediately what the red/green meant - it's actually a fairly
intuitive signal. <<<
All the older stoplights along Rockaway Freeway and Edgemere Avenue have now been replaced by modern ones. This happened just last winter.
>>There were plenty of others around including all of 5th
ave in manhattan. (5th ave's were sort of gold in color rather than the yellow that became common
under Traffic Czar Barnes. <<<
Fifth Avenue had a unique style of stoplight seen nowhere else in NYC, along with a unique variety of twin lampposts. Unfortunately none of those stoplights remains today.
>>>Why(and when) did the Walk/Dont Walk signals go from red and
green to the present orange and white<<
This was done in the 70s. I believe the green was too dark for people who have trouble seeing in the dark, especially at twilight.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Why(and when) did the Walk/Dont Walk signals go from red and
green to the present orange and white<<
This was done in the 70s. I believe the green was too dark for people who have trouble seeing in the dark, especially at twilight.
They were originally the same red and green as the stop and go lights for the motorists. If that green isn't too dark for motorists, why is it too dark for pedestrians? And there's nothing worse than having the sun directly on the horizon in front of you while you're driving. Its bad enough seeing traffic, let alone what color the traffic light is, or even which one is lit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>>They were originally the same red and green as the stop and go lights for the motorists.<<<
Well, if your vision is extremely limited, you won't be driving...I hope.
I think the same rationale explains why stoplights began to be painted yellow in the mid-60s. Just made them that more visible.
Well, if your vision is extremely limited, you won't be driving...I hope.
I think the same rationale explains why stoplights began to be painted yellow in the mid-60s. Just made them that more visible.
Bad vision and colorblindness are 2 vastly different things. People who are colorblind can see clearly, they just can't distinguish color. My brother-in-law is colorblind. He was in the Air Force for 20 years. They would never allow him to fly because of his colorblindness, but he can drive a car as well as anyone else.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well, I hadn't mentioned colorblindness specifically. There are people who do have a condition called night blindness, and they don't see well at dusk or twilight. I'd imagine for them, the dark green 'walk' color wouldn't show up as well as the greenish white they use now.
Well, I hadn't mentioned colorblindness specifically. There are people who do have a condition called night blindness, and they don't see well at dusk or twilight. I'd imagine for them, the dark green 'walk' color wouldn't show up as well as the greenish white they use now.
Here in the Miami area, we don't have walk/don't walk signs. We have pictures. I guess its because of all the immigrants who might not know English. You see a red hand for "don't walk", and a white figure walking for "walk". Does NY have any of those yet?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm told NYC will be installing the pictographic walk/don't walk signs as time goes on. After all, the high schools are graduating youths who cannot read.
I'm told NYC will be installing the pictographic walk/don't walk signs as time goes on. After all, the high schools are graduating youths who cannot read.
South Florida has had the pictographic signs since at least the early 1980's. As for the trend toward illiteracy, it is shocking and depressing. There is alot more illiteracy now than there was when I was in high school. I went between fall 1968 - spring 1972. Back then, you would think illiteracy would be wiped out by now. I'm not even talking about immigrants. I'm talking about American-born people who can't read or write. Some are functionally illiterate, but some are so bad that they sign their name with an "X". I was a welfare and foodstamp caseworker for 12 years (I quit that crap 5 years ago), and I've had American-born people who signed with an X. I had to read everything to them. You couldn't just give them the paperwork and tell them to read it over. They couldn't. Most were late teens or early to mid twenties, not old people who had to quit school during the Great Depression. Florida has one of the worst school systems in the country. Everybody's riding around with bumper stickers that say "my child made the honor roll at such and such elementary school". The kids are not that smart. Its just that the standards are low.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
During one of those cockamamie Daily News articles in which they asked futurists what Century 21 will bring in connection with the millennium overhype, one of them said that reading and writing are becoming outmoded skills and will be abandoned in the upcoming decades. Something about machines you can talk to that will follow your orders, and books and magazines that are imprinted on your brain instead of actually reading and absorbing them.
I'm beginning to think I WAS born at the right time. I just missed Vietnam, and hopefully I'll miss this bull!@#$.
A passive, supine population capable of nothing but what their machines can do for them.
"In the year 2525..."
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the adoption of orange DON'T WALK/white WALK indications back in the '70s was done by the NYCDOT to bring it's system up to federal MUTDC (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices) standards.
IF memory serves me correctly, the DOT only upgraded the round-backed crosswalk DON'T(on top)/WALK(on bottom) lights which came complete with sun visors and had no wire mesh grill on the signal head. There were still a few older and bulky-looking box-shaped models from the early 60s that sported the red and green combo. When the current WALK/DON'T WALK lights with the glare shields
(those funny-looking mesh grills over the signal head) replaced the roundbacks and "boxes" it was white-orange combo all the way.
Of course this is New York and even today you can still see the DOT using red DON'T WALK indications here and there around town. I even saw a Green WALK light being used on 3rd Avenue in Bay Ridge.
Speaking of red/green lights, I recall that up until the mid 1990s, Cross Bay Blvd in Broad Channel had about 10 or so interesctions of these lights. One thing that fascinated me was that all of them had a third indication for a green left-turn arrow. The cycle for the light Facing Cross Bay went like this: green-->green/red-->red w/ green arrow-->red-->green.
Those were replaced about 1994 or 95 with standard signals as part of a DOT project that repaved the road, placed new lane markings and cut the # of travel lanes from 4 to 3 in each dierection.
Too bad they're gone now, it was another one of those scenic highlights along with the rebuild of the North Channel bridge near Howard Beach that made a trip on the Q53 bus interesting in the late 80s/early 90s.
(At least the Triboro Drivers still floor the gas pedal
from Rego Park to Broad Channel though.)
Based on my experience, A flashing green means you have every right to barrel on through as if you were a unit coal train with no brakes on a 2% grade with gale force tail winds. However that pretty much sums up the overall driving philosophy in Boston in general.
Has anyone mentioned the Yellow+Red (together) aspect yet? No one observes it anymore in Boston, they just flatten pedestrians. Thankfully they are being phased out.
db
"Has anyone mentioned the Yellow+Red (together) aspect yet?"
That was the one aspect that totally confused me when I moved to Boston. Do you treat it as a yellow???(and floor through it), or as a red?? :) I think it still exists at Harvard and Brighton Ave...which can be a VERY crazy intersection.
The ones there were removed when they rebuilt the intersection as part of the "Allston Village" aka "Lets rip out the Watertown line tracks" project. They remain in a couple of other intersections on Commonwealth and Western Aves.
The RED _with_ YELLOW aspect means: "Walk" it is used for a pedestrian-only sequence when there are no Walk/Don't Walk signs. The really scary thing is that no one behind the wheel knows this, and they just blaze on through honking at the innocent pedestrians. My dog almost got run over on Western Ave in a situation like this.
I live in NYC now, and although driving here is "intense," people do WAY LESS stupid stuff driving here than "up north"
db
There was a BIG difference between a red and a red + yellow aspect. You could not go past either aspect. However, if you had entered an intersection and the light turned red, then you were expected to continue and leave the intersection clear. However, if the light turned red + yellow, then you had to stop where you were.
The system was really quite economical on resources. The economical yankees probably saved several hundred dollars by not needing special pedestrian signals. However, the standardization was pushed through by the traffic light manufacturers.
In europe, traffic lights turn on the yellow light momentarily at the end of the red light cycle so you know to begin shifting your car into first gear. So, the cycle is green, yellow, red, red+yellow, green...
(Hi Phil.)
After reading all of the follow-ons to your post, I went to the Registry of Motor Vehicles Web site, and looked at the Driver's Manual to see what it said about FLASHING GREEN signals. Guess what? No mention. Nor of the simultaneouls YELLOW/RED. So while I've seen them -- and David Chui and others have described their meanings well, I guess the Commonwealth of Massachusetts doesn't believe they exist any more. Perhaps it's time for a "Forgotton MA," Kevin W.?
It is my understanding that flashing green is used primarily if not exclusively on Metropolitan District Commission (MDC, ie the parks dept) property, eg waterfront drives and parkways. I have understood it to mean a pedestrian actuated signal, ie one that's not on a timer or necessarily at a vehicular intersection. Flashing yellow can mean essentially the same thing - expect the signal to change at any time. There's one at my corner in Quincy, MA.
They started them on some of the major hiways here in Delaware last year. Signs say they indicate "be alert for traffic entering hiway from side street". I think they are the same thing that flashing yellow used to be, i.e., side street has flashing red (stop then go) through street has flashing yellow, now flashing green.
Obviously some DOT administrator doesn't have enough to do. And, yeah, nobody pays any attention to any of this anyway.
To make matters really confusing imagine seeing this.
You're driving along the hiway. The light ahead has just turned from red to green. As you approach the light it starts flashing green!
Don't you love technology? If we can do something new, we've got to do it!
...I feel the need to bring this up.
At Tipperary Hill, the Irish section of town, is the only (supposedly) traffic signal in use with Green on top. The history behind this is simple. Green represents the Irish. Red represents, among others, the Italians. When the traffic signal was put up, the local people would not stand for it, and through stones at the top (red) light. After several months (years?) of this, they just went ahead and put Green over Red.
They couldn't either put the light sideways or just tell the residents to shut up and that their concerns where frivolous and didn't deserve attention even in the court of braindead monkeys. I prefer the latter action.
I remember hearing about this because my mother grew up in syracuse and walked by said light when going to the dentist.
Before they reversed it, kids would smash the red light out with stones on an almost -daily- basis. Of course nooone in the area would have any idea who was responsible if the police came. They got tired of fixing it.
These kids should have been locked up making license plates for the cars that would stop for the light on TOP of the unit they so detested.
Ah, yes the corner of Tompkins St. and Milton Av. in Syracuse,NY holds a special place in the hearts of the local Irish community. As for those "vandals", they were forever more referred to as the Stone Throwers and went on to live sucessful lives in Syracuse including at least one VERY high ranking member of the Syracuse Police Department.
Once someone colorblind unfamiliar with the intersection goes through and causes an accident, EACH AND EVERY ONE of these "Stone Throwers" should be put away for a long time like those people involved in the stop sign heist.
The Stone Throwers are all dead now and the whole thing happened in the 1920's anyway. The light is still green over red though
Well in that case, why has nobody switched it back?
The Irish establishment in Syracuse is very powerful and that signal is a world famous landmark.
And it is still a very Irish neighborhood. A restaurant right by the light conducts a public reading of James Joyce's "Ulysses in Nighttown" every Bloomsday in June.
Then place a sign beside it saying: CAUTION: Green is on Top
I lived in Syracuse for nine years of my life, and dined at Coleman's on Tipperary Hill many a night.
There's a page devoted to the Green over Red Light & Stonethrowers Park (the park and statue dedicated to the group) which includes a couple of pictures.
--Mike
There are a large number of flashing green lights like this in Toronto. I was there this summer and had a similar reaction to them. Eventually though, we realized that the flashig green signified that you had right of way ahead of the other cars in the intersection. This was used instead of a left arrow, or a "lead green", as is more common in the US. So the standard cycle would be like this: flashing green while you are the only one with a green light, standard (not flashing) green when the other side's light turns green, yellow, red.
Today i just added R68 subway page & check out my Subway's page & more subway pictures will add soon.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Today i just added some of subway's pictures & check out my NYCTransiTrans Subway's Page & enjoy it.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: I have change the name from NYCT-MTA to NYCTransiTrans.
Y2K Glitch was a real joke. Yes, companies needed to get ready for the 2000 date but the news media took it to a new dimension. I think the news media was floored when there was no story to report. The joke was on THEM. And guess what, no transit systems were affected.
There was a slight mishap at Philadelphia International Airport.
After midnight on Saturday, all the arrival/departure screens displayed 1/1/1900. Nothing else was affected and the glitch was more humourous than harmful.
I've heard stories on the news of computers that said 1/4/1980, 1/1/100 and 12/34/1980.
Nice to know at least most of our $282 billion was well spent.
1/4/1980 was the date that DOS/win9x came up with when the PC BIOS rolled to 1900. 1/1/100 showed up on a local Baltimore soccer website's BBS on 1/1/2000, but a day later, posts on the same board showed the correct date. The Webmaster has no idea.
The New Year coverage showws lots of Media types who couldn't hide the disapointment that NOTHING MAJOR HAPPENED. On one network telecast they had a guy doing card tricks.
Since nothing major happened on 1/1/2000, the media then quoted "experts" who predicted Y2K chaos on January 3. Nothing major again.
So the "experts" then predicted "in the coming weeks and months"
I wonder if the Media likes their crow well done.
1/4/1980 was the date that DOS/win9x came up with when the PC BIOS rolled to 1900. 1/1/100 showed up on a local Baltimore soccer website's BBS on 1/1/2000, but a day later, posts on the same board showed the correct date. The Webmaster has no idea.
The New Year coverage showws lots of Media types who couldn't hide the disapointment that NOTHING MAJOR HAPPENED. On one network telecast they had a guy doing card tricks.
Since nothing major happened on 1/1/2000, the media then quoted "experts" who predicted Y2K chaos on January 3. Nothing major again.
So the "experts" then predicted "in the coming weeks and months"
I wonder if the Media likes their crow well done.
Now they're saying that the worst is yet to come - on Feb. 29, because 1900 wasn't a leap year, and on Dec. 31, because of the 366-day year. I personally don't think anything more than date confusion will ever result from Y2K. The millennial rollover didn't cause any crashes. Why should any other date-related event? All the hype is, is a way to sell newspapers, magazines and Y2K supplies. I'm sorry that I didn't find a way to make some money off of this bullsh**! I remember what they were saying back in 1996. Cars won't start, no electricity, no water, all computers crashing, nothing functioning. Ah! G'wahn! They compared it to the aftermath of a nuclear holocost without the explosion and destruction.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
My brother gave me a Metrocard that is the same color under the magnetic stripe, a brownish yellow. It was NOT light at one end and dark at the other. Why?
It was a different print run than the one you compared it against.
There are a few variations of the coloring.
There are also a paper/mag "Tryplex" version sold via ATM vs. MVM machines. (there were two test versions, so you'll need 3 for a set)
Have a few 2000 QSC pocket calendars to trade your local or out-of-town dip/swipe cards. If interested contact me off-line.
Mr t__:^)
Hey John, the lawyers will get rick on the Y2K Glitch. What do you think? Was the CTA affected?
Not nearly as rich as they would have if there had been major and/or widespread Y2K problems. Y2K protection laws or not, there would have been lawsuits galore if computer failures started ringing up millions of dollars in losses.
CTA wasn't affected -- they did a pretty good job New Year's Eve, moving the huge crowds at Navy Pier, Grant Park, and elsewhere in the city. The real worry here in Chicago was ComEd (electric power), since they can't be relied upon to keep the electric lights burning even in the heart of the Loop when the temperature gets into the 90s. (^: But the lights stayed on at midnight here, except for a one-minute outage in one of the suburbs due to sabotage (a home-made bomb next to a high-tension tower!) and not the Y2K bug.
Will the test include specific train operations and such or will it be a general civil service type exam?
Im taking a test this saturday at 10am in the morning & i think it will be general civil service or other. So good luck on Train Operator exam.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
So am I. This should be interesting....
-Stef
I took the conductor's test in November of 93. I'm still waiting for them to call....LOL.
That should be a testament enough to all who are taking the exam on Saturday not to type up resignations to their current employer yet!
lol
Well Bill, I guess that while I wait, I'll become versed in operating a retired SMEE Car out of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Long live the Redbirds!!!!!
-Stef
You should call the personnel dept to see where you are on the list, if it still exists.
I recieved my results, and my number was over 14,000. I was just being a tad sarcastic.
A friend of mine that works for the TA said that I should know my points of interest and that there will be paragraphs and the questions are from the paragraph.......
I will be taking mine on Sat at 4:00pm. Anybody taking theirs earlier??????
3TM
I'll be in the Bronx taking the exam bright and early at 10AM.
-Stef
Stef: i will taking the test at 10AM at Walton HS. I did study hard for three months. I might get between 75% to 85% on the test.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I'll be at Walton too!!!!!!
How do you like that?
-Stef
Ill be taking mine at Canarsie HS in Bklyn. There is an article in today's DN about the applicants and how many openings there are for the motorman position. I wish everybody who take the test good luck.
3TM
I have been working on a subway line design for 4 years and I have gotten no where and I wanted to know if anyone is willing to help. I wanted to present my plan to people who can give some great consideration. Well best of luck to all of you and thanks.
Christopher Rivera
Is it possible to get copies of those Neighborhood Maps that are in the subway stations. They give great detail and there's a few of them I'd love to have.
NYCT sells the neighborhood maps. Call 718-243-3322 (Customer Assistance) 9-5 weekdays. They'll tell you who to contact and how much the maps are.
David
I know that there are a number of lines that run under Flatbush Ave from atlantic to GrandArmy Plaza, and I've seen track maps that show them side-by-side, but based on my experience using the Grand Army Plaza, Seventh Ave, and Bergen street station, I know those lines don;t run side by side. Is there anywhere I can see an elevation map of that section of track?
Think of it like this: the IRT local tracks are on the outside. The BMT Brighton tracks run down the center, between the 2 IRT local tracks. The IRT express tracks run underneath both sets of tracks. This is practically the same way the 6th Ave IND and the Path lines are configured from W4th St to 34th St.
Also if you are on the Brooklyn bound 2/3, between Bergen and GAP you should see the 7Av station. You might catch a D/Q entering the station.........
3TM
I have seen the 2/3 trains pass by the D/Q line in an opening in the wall just north of 7th Ave.
One time I was on a Redbird express and I look up at the railfan window I saw a glimpse of the station also.
3TM
Recall that back when the dual contracts were being formulated it was unclear who (IRT or BMT) would operate the 4th Ave subway. Hence some of the close construction.
Ive also been told, in a similar vane, that there is access from Metro-North in or about GCT to the Lex subway, probably the southbound local track, via a doorway. I dont think that you can actually see from one property into the other, though, unless you are quite lucky.
Perhaps someone else has the details......
In actuality, the "4th Av Subway" was built ca. 1910 by the BRT (Brooklyn Rapid Transit) as part of the Tri Borough Plan, as was the Nassau St loop. It had nothing to do with the Dual Contracts, which were awarded several years later.
Finally the R-142 trains have arrived. When will these trains begin "test" runs ? and on what line will they run on, or when they will be visible in the 239th street yard or the East 180th street yard, looking forward to see them in action, I saw them on transit transit they look good, but will they run.I would like to stop by and take some pictures.
What's the rush? The longer it takes to test the R142, the longer we get to see all those redbirds get a stay of execution.
What's the rush? The longer it takes to test the R142, the longer we get to see all those redbirds get a stay of execution.
Yeah. the redbirds won't be around much longer, but those R-142's will be around for 35 years. Once all the redbirds are replaced, you will probably resent the R-142 for replacing them, so don't wish away the redbirds. That's what you're doing by being impatient about the R-142's testing.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
but those R-142's will be around for 35 years.
In the Transit Transit show, one person was interviewed saying they hope the R142s would be around for at least 40 years, but wouldn't be surprised if they lasted much longer....even 60-80 years! Don't feel too bad about the redbird era ending, at least there is a red mark on each car, plus on the bottom half of the front as well. -Nick
In the Transit Transit show, one person was interviewed saying they hope the R142s would be around for at least 40 years, but wouldn't be surprised if they lasted much longer....even 60-80 years! Don't feel too bad about the redbird era ending, at least there is a red mark on each car, plus on the bottom half of the front as well. -Nick
60-80 years? You've got to be kidding. I don't recall any rapid transit car that lasted that long in service. 50 maybe, but 60-80, I sincerely doubt that. 40 seems a bit more realistic; maybe 50.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Some of the cars that ran on the old IRT lines were retired after about 75 to 80 years of continuous service. The day that they were retired, there was a sign on the front of the last train stating how long it was in service, and it was featured in a newspaper article with pictues.
Some of the cars that ran on the old IRT lines were retired after about 75 to 80 years of continuous service. The day that they were retired, there was a sign on the front of the last train stating how long it was in service, and it was featured in a newspaper article with pictues.
How could that be? Hi-V's from 1904 were retired in the 1950's (maybe by the early 1960's, the very latest), and Lo-V's from 1914-1924 were retired in the early 1960's. The only cars that I can think about were the el cars. I don't know when they were built. Some might have been built as early as the 1870's or 1880's, I suppose. I think all composites from 1902 were retired before 1950. I f a Hi-V built in 1904 was retired in 1963, that would make it 59 years old. If any MUDC's date back to 1878 (and I doubt that; they probably date to 1895-1905), and they were retired in 1955, the oldest they could be is 77 years old. but like I said, I don't think any of the MUDC's were that old. A car made in 1890 would have been 65 years old. Seventy-five to 80 years old? Show me documentary evidence and I'll believe it. As for newspapers, they are wrong more often than they're right when it comes to 75-80 year old history.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think he's referring to the Museum Train of Lo-Vs which came out to carry passengers on the 42nd St Shuttle for one day in 1994.
-Stef
I think he's referring to the Museum Train of Lo-Vs which came out to carry passengers on the 42nd St Shuttle for one day in 1994.
-Stef
He was talking about 75-80 years of continuous service. Continuous service does not include a once-in-a-while fan trip or a one-time regular service run on 10/27/1994. He also mentioned "The day that they were retired, there was a sign on the front of the last train stating how long it was in service, and it was featured in a newspaper article with pictues". This sounds like IRT cars being retired from regular service and the newspaper getting the age wrong. Once a train is in museum status, it could be operational practically indefinately. Look at 3662 in Shore Line, not to mention the BU's that are there. Anyway, I refuse to believe that the R-142's could be in service for more than 35-45 years. A better guess would be 35-40 years. The guy whose post I answered stated "In the Transit Transit show, one person was interviewed saying they hope the R142s would be around for at least 40 years, but wouldn't be surprised if they lasted much longer....even 60-80 years! NO WAY!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The newspaper may have been wrong, but the editor did not catch it.
Anyway, the useful life of any electric railroad car or locomotive is about 35 to 40 years, then obsolescence catches up to it and it can no longer be run, mainly due to lack of spare parts.
The more you guys out there write, the more I get to learn.
Thanks.
The newspaper may have been wrong, but the editor did not catch it.
Anyway, the useful life of any electric railroad car or locomotive is about 35 to 40 years, then obsolescence catches up to it and it can no longer be run, mainly due to lack of spare parts.
The more you guys out there write, the more I get to learn.
Thanks.
You're welcome. Hey, we're all learning. that's what SubTalk is here for. If we all pooled together our knowledge, we all together would be a walking transit encyclopedia. Being a nostalgia freak, I only wish that the useful life of a rapid transit car was 75-80 years. The Standards, Triplexes, R-1/9's and Lo-V's would still be in service. It would be great.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
i think the R-142's will last about 30 years or so depending things such as wear and tear people abusing them, availiable spare parts, accidents maybe they will get mini overhauls say every ten years or so, instead of over twenty years like the redbirds.
01/06/2000
That was Joe Hofman on the Transit Transit show who made that declaration that the R-142's might even last about 70 years!
Bill Newkirk
70 years? Not even the R32 could last that long under the stress of daily use on the city's subway system. 40 years is more like it.
Are these cars all stainless steel (like the R32)?
01/06/2000
The R-142's are all stainless steel much like the R-62's. The R-38's unlike the R-32's don't have stainless stel roofs which are showing some leaking problems.
I guess Joe Hofman made that remark judging by the "new technology" this car order will have. I think that may be stretching a bit.
Bill Newkirk
"New technology" usually means that these cars have more things on them to go wrong. Gimme the old tech stuff anyday.
"New technology" usually means that these cars have more things on them to go wrong. Gimme the old tech stuff anyday.
You saved me a post. I was just about to say the same thing. The simple old stuff is much easier to maintain. Even though both my cars have Electronic Fuel Injection, I'll take a good old fashioned carb any day! The damn cars are loaded with computer parts, which can quit at any time. I remember the time my wife's car stalled and wouldn't start. Fortunately, it happened at a toll plaza (right at the gate!) We had to push the thing off to the side to keep it from blocking traffic. It was fortunate because a bank of telephones were right there. Beyond the toll plaza was several miles of wilderness. Anyway, we found out that it was one of the computer boards that blew. Pain in the butt with this high-tech stuff in cars and trains! I remember when the motherboard in my previous computer blew for no good reason. It was down for 30 hours until I could get another MB to put in. That's an inconvenience, but its no fun having your car quit for no good reason in the middle of nowhere while you wait for a towtruck. It would be no different with the trains. If a train quits for no good reason right in the middle of one of the East River tubes, what the hell are they going to do? Call a towtrain?!!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/06/2000
Yeah! Call the "BIG HOOK". An "old fashioned" BMT Steple cab straight from the Museum!!
Also look at the high hopes the TA had for the R-44 or 46's, something called A.T.O. Do these cars have AT today? Nah! As far as the R-62's and 68's, they went back to the old "Two Handle" way of operating cars. I heard the nicknames "suitcase drive" and "idiot stick" to describe the old R-44/46 controller handles !
Bill Newkirk
New technology can be a pain but ... once the bugs get worked out we tend to wonder how we ever survived without it. Take the car analogy: my '60 Fairlane was a great car; with its 223 flathead six and three-on-the-tree, no accessories - and I mean NONE, not even windshield washers - it got me there, dependably, for almost 100,000 miles, before I sold it to a teenager who was willing to give me more than the junkyard would. Several cars later its successor in my fleet was a loaded '85 Country Squire, 302 V-8, computerized to the hilt - that got me there for almost 200,000 miles, and I'm convinced it would have gone considerably farther if my son had changed the oil regularly during the five months he drove it. The '85 weighed about 800 lbs. more than the '60 and had a/c, of course, and still got 22-23 mpg on the highway and 19 in town; the '60 got about 14 around town and 16-17 on the highway. The '85 stopped in 185 feet from 60 mph versus 230 feet for the '60 - and for its day the '60 was one of the best cars out there, while the '85 was decidedly middle-of-the-pack.
Yes, the old ones were fun and we loved them, but for overall reliability and durability the new ones will be far superior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't the Q cars last almost 70 years?
Didn't the Q cars last almost 70 years?
Yes and no. They were originally BU gate cars that were rebuilt in 1938 for the 1939 World's Fair. They were the Osgood Bradley 1200 series BU cars built in 1903. That would mean they were a total of 66 years old when taken out of service in 1969. But like I said, they were extensively rebuilt. If you want to think about it, there is equipment that seems to run forever. Within the past year, I saw a Model A on the street in traffic. I'm sure the owner doesn't use it as his "everyday" car.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They're still running tests on the train at the yard. These trains won't probably be tested in revenue service for at least a month if all testing at the yard goes great. If all does go well, within 3-4 months we could start to see more and more R-142's appear and gradually replace the redbirds. My guess is that when they do test them, they will be tested on the IRT number 2 line. If I recall, this is where the R-110's were also tested. Until
Yes, The R110-A was tested on the #2, but the first revenue test car could go on the #2 or #5. It wou;d be great if one of these cars was actually in passenger testing within a month, but it will probably be longer than that. But I do hope that many R-142s will be in service at the projected time of this summer. When do you think we'll see the R-142 passing through the stations in testing, even without passengers? I'm interested to see if it sounds like Boston's red line 01800 series, with the ac motors. -Nick
If anyone knows about a "Farewell to the R26/28/29/33/36 Fantrip", let me know. I'd love to participate in it.
01/06/2000
Don't hold your breath, a fantrip like that won't happen for a while.
Bill Newkirk
How many tracks are at the Flatbush LIRR Terminal?
Is the building like a sizeable train station in any way or is just a train stop?
By that I mean, its an actual building, sort of like GCT or Penn but certainly not that big, or just some platforms under a roof?
there are 6 tracks. It is just a bunch of platforms and ticket offices at the North end. The above ground terminal is history.
I believe that track #1 merges (or did merge) into the IRT system for the benefit of August Belmont and his car "The Mineola"
[I believe that track #1 merges (or did merge) into the IRT system for the benefit of August Belmont and his car "The Mineola"]
Although provisions were made for the connection - the route's still visible from the north end of the IRT platform - there is some doubt as to whether it ever was put into use.
The Flatbush Ave. station once WAS a Brooklyn version of Penn Station. It was officialy called Atlantic Ave. Terminal (NOT Flatbush Terminal which is the common mistake). Unfortunately, due to lack of ridership on the Flatbush line back in the 50's and 60's, the large terminal above the tracks fell into disarray and by the mid-70's even a small, but well-packed pub on the Flatbush Avenue side, closed up and the terminal building was demolished.
With the building of MetroTech Center and the general economic prosperity in the city -- and Brooklyn in particular -- Forest City Ratner (along with other partners) has proposed a new Atlantic Terminal Center that would include a SEARS store (as the anchor) restaurants, a bar and possibly a nightclub. Of course this is just talk at this point. But Brooklyn has been forging ahead full steam with other projects, so this one becoming a reality would not surprise me.
Doug aka BMTman
[...has proposed a new Atlantic Terminal Center that would include a SEARS store (as the anchor) restaurants, a bar and possibly a nightclub. Of course this is just talk at this point]
I thought it was a done deal and that construction of a new terminal/business center was to begin shortly.
Thanks to politicians dragging these things out for years, and the general NIMBY atttitude (you'd think businesses were on their knees trying to get in here), Brooklyn may be left with a lot of empty holes. The recent interest rate rise may ensure that Brooklyn's "virtual reality" development boom remains just that.
Zoning to allow a wide variety of people to build new stores was voted down by the City Council. If Forest City controls a site, and they no Brooklyn has no alternatives, they are going to hold it back until the city gives them subsidies. And, they have sued to block the Millenium development on the Gowanus from going forward -- construction has stopped. A deal has been announced several times at Spring Creek, but no dirt has flown. The proposed Brooklyn Junction and Fulton Ferry developments have been NIMBYed to nothing. Looks like Brooklyn will be "protected" from a movie studio in the Navy Yard as well. Large national retailers have gotten the hint and stopped calling about possible sites in Brooklyn. Local retailers have no intention of growing -- they'll just cash cow Brooklyn due to the lack of local competition. Brooklyn (pop. 2.3 million plus) has 400,000 private jobs. Nassau (pop. about 1.4 million) has 500,000 private jobs).
"Fortunately" the social services and health care industries continues to grow. And with fewer jobs, Brooklyn politicians have a reason to say more people should be allowed onto welfare and not required to work. Arrrgh.
[Zoning to allow a wide variety of people to build new stores was voted down by the City Council. If Forest City controls a site, and they no Brooklyn has no alternatives, they are going to hold it back
until the city gives them subsidies. And, they have sued to block the Millenium development on the Gowanus from going forward -- construction has stopped. A deal has been announced several times
at Spring Creek, but no dirt has flown. The proposed Brooklyn Junction and Fulton Ferry developments have been NIMBYed to nothing. Looks like Brooklyn will be "protected" from a movie studio in the Navy Yard as well. Large national retailers have gotten the hint and stopped
calling about possible sites in Brooklyn. Local retailers have no intention of growing -- they'll just cash cow Brooklyn due to the lack of local competition. Brooklyn (pop. 2.3 million plus) has 400,000 private jobs. Nassau (pop. about 1.4 million) has 500,000 private jobs).]
It probably was a mistake to have offered subsidies to developers in the first place (yeah, I know, 20-20 hindsight ...) Now Forest City and its ilk know they can keep holding out for more and more $$$. And development in NYC _is_ possible without subsidies. Take the Navy Yard movie studio as an example. Even as it remains mired in childish squabbling, new studio space is being built in Long Island City with solely private financing.
Local residents should be thankful that anyone wants to come near the Atlantic Terminal area. As you state - a few more interest rate jumps and it will become too risky to invest in inner city areas. How do supermarkets fit into our archaic zoning? Can they expand to big-box size as of right in an existing development in a C4-1 zoned area?
[Local residents should be thankful that anyone wants to come near the Atlantic Terminal area. As you state - a few more interest rate jumps and it will become too risky to invest in inner city areas. How do supermarkets fit into our archaic zoning? Can they expand to big-box size as of right in an existing development in a C4-1 zoned area?]
Unfortunately, I don't know the direct answer to your question, but I do know that in many cases large stores have been blocked by the City Council.
[Thanks to politicians dragging these things out for years, and the general NIMBY atttitude (you'd think businesses were on their knees trying to get in here), Brooklyn may be left with a lot of empty holes. The recent interest rate rise may ensure that Brooklyn's "virtual reality" development boom remains just that.
Zoning to allow a wide variety of people to build new stores was voted down by the City Council. If Forest City controls a site, and they no Brooklyn has no alternatives, they are going to hold it back until the city gives them subsidies. And, they have sued to block the Millenium development on the Gowanus from going forward -- construction has stopped. A deal has been announced several times at Spring Creek, but no dirt has flown. The proposed Brooklyn Junction and Fulton Ferry developments have been NIMBYed to nothing. Looks like Brooklyn will be "protected" from a movie studio in the Navy Yard as well. Large national retailers have gotten the hint and stopped calling about possible sites in Brooklyn. Local retailers have no intention of growing -- they'll just cash cow Brooklyn due to the lack of local competition. Brooklyn (pop. 2.3 million plus) has 400,000 private jobs. Nassau (pop. about 1.4 million) has 500,000 private jobs).
"Fortunately" the social services and health care industries continues to grow. And with fewer jobs, Brooklyn politicians have a reason to say more people should be allowed onto welfare and not required to work. Arrrgh.]
Larry, you're depressing me!
I think all the money that will be spent to connect the LIRR to Grand Central should be used to extend this line past the Flatbush terminal into lower Manhattan, thus giving LIRR riders a direct link to the financial district, a la the PATH line to the WTC. Unfortunatly, the cost might make this impossible. However, given the MTA's bias towards suburban transit ...
[I think all the money that will be spent to connect the LIRR to Grand Central should be used to extend this line past the Flatbush terminal into lower Manhattan, thus giving LIRR riders a direct link to the financial district, a la the PATH line to the WTC. Unfortunatly, the cost might make this impossible. However, given the MTA's bias towards suburban transit ...]
I've wondered much the same thing. Why have two terminals in Midtown, rather than one in Midtown and one in lower Manhattan? The same goes for proposals to extend New Jersey Transit.
[With the building of MetroTech Center and the general economic prosperity in the city -- and Brooklyn in particular -- Forest City Ratner (along with other partners) has proposed a new Atlantic
Terminal Center that would include a SEARS store (as the anchor) restaurants, a bar and possibly a nightclub. Of course this is just talk at this point. But Brooklyn has been forging ahead full steam with other projects, so this one becoming a reality would not surprise me.]
As I've noted elsewhere, I'll believe it when the construction workers are on site. Until then, don't believe a thing.
It was once thought to build a new Baseball stadium there for the Dodgers back in the 50s
The shop is now open, but R142s aren't housed here yet. Actually the old timers are being serviced here (you know, the cars in red?). Two sets of R26/28/29s were in the shop this evening. 7958 and 59 came out of the shop onto Track A Yard Lead.
I thought TA personnel were going to wait until the new cars showed up before putting anything in that barn? I wonder if there are any surprises in the barn at 239th St?
-Stef
I was up at 239st shop on Tuesday and there are about 15 new cars in the Barn. I took some pictures yesterday and I will be picking them up this evening. I took advantage of AOL's new feature "You've Got Pictures" so I should have them in a computer format. I will need to comunicate with David(our Web Site Host) to find out how to get the files to him for posting. I was unable to get into the trains this time, but will be there again Friday, well see what happens. Friday I take the Mid-Course exam for Train Operator School Car. Wish me LUCK!!!
It looks like you and I both will need the luck. While you'll be taking your exam for train operator school car, I'll be taking the actual Train Operator Civil Service Exam on Saturday. With any luck, I'll get into Transit after years and years of waiting. While I wait(and I told this to Bill from Maspeth in another post), I'll become well versed in a retired SMEE Car at the Trolley Museum in CT.
Best wishes for sucess, because all things are possible when you put your head to it.
-Stef
P.S. Any idea when the first R142 will come out of the barn and hit the road for track testing?
I have been asking about testing, but no one seem to know. I will keep asking though.
Nobody will know what is on the open competetive exam. A bulletin came out in the last couple of days in RTO directed at employees taking the exam. Why would an employee in RTO want to take the open competetive exam? Because to accept the position, you would have to resign from the conductor's title, then hire on as a train operator. You would not have a former title to go back to. The TA knows this and that is one reason they rigged one of the last few promotionals so only 33 passed. Now the ones who failed a promotional exam to train operator which was quoted as so tough, most supervisors could not pass it, will easily pass the exam to the same title they desired in the first place. I'd offer an extra brake handle to anyone who proves me wrong. THE TA is busting Civil Service with this exam and it is their retaliation for the Union's defiance of the Train Worker titles. Good luck to those taking the exam but Satan is still at the helm of the New York City Transit Authority.
He was taking about the new cars on the road, not the open competitive exam....
-Stef
I was at 180st shop today and there are now 15 new cars there. Someone said they are the same 15 that were previosly at 239st shop.
Unfortunatly I did not have a camera with me, I never thought there would be any new cars at 180st this soon. My trainer and I were able to get into the cars. The Operating position is very nice. There is a one piece controler that is more like a joy stick, rather then the slide controler on the 110A. I am still waiting for my pictures from Tuesday, I hope I get them tonight.
Still no info on when road testing will begin.
Thank You very much for sharing that info with me. I got a tip from another poster that he had seen the cars first hand on Wednsday. I had seen the shop the day before on Tuesday when they hadn't arrived, so they must have come down from 239th St over night. I decided today to hop on a Thru Exp which was going all the way to 241 St instead of 238th St to make up for a gap in 2 service. Yeah, they were there! Incredible! Their front ends look strange..... I wonder if they came down to E180th St on their own power? For those who want to know, the R142s are located on Track 11 in the barn at the East (the track on the inside of the barn against the wall nearest to station). You're best bet might be an evening view of the cars through the glass of the barn. Redbirds and New Cars side by side with each other? Bizarre!!!
Well posters, you heard it here. The R142s are now here, so get your cameras out as the end will be coming for our beloved species now on the endangered list, "The Redbirds".
-Stef
The best of luck to you, fellow sub-talker!
Chuck Greene
Not true, I seen a set of R-142's in the East 180th Street barn this evening.
You have? I'll check it out. I did see the older cars in the barn. Any newer cars are supposed to be up north at 239th St.
-Stef
I noticed it yesterday and tried to get a better look at it today. Behind the CI carwash lies a string of what seem to be old subway cars not in their usual "resting area" at the Ave X entrance of the CI yard. It's not just one car, but a group of 4-5 cars, which leads me to believe it's either the Transit museum's Triplex or BMT Standard fantrip train. Anyone know why it's there, and what exactly it is? As soon as I get close enough to get a good look at it from a passing N train, that !@#$%& carwash building blocks my view!
It's the Triplex's all right.
Alot of the older stuff is outside because the CI Yards needs every inch of floor space these days.
(Not to mention new management at CI might have meant that the museum equipment got 'kicked to the curb' so to speak).
Doug aka BMTman
It's the Triplex's all right.
Alot of the older stuff is outside because the CI Yards needs every inch of floor space these days.
(Not to mention new management at CI might have meant that the museum equipment got 'kicked to the curb' so to speak).
Doug aka BMTman
I hope the museum equipment will be safe there, outside. We don't need any graffiti or scratchiti on any of those cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The D-Types need shelter. They aren't doing too well out there with the elements.
-Stef
The D-Types need shelter. They aren't doing too well out there with the elements.
-Stef
Isn't there anything that can be done to get the TA to put them inside?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not unless you can find someway to squeeze them into the Transit Museum. I think that one of the two Fulton St Local Tracks between each set of switches (the pair at Hoyt and the other at Court), namely what would have been the Manhattan Bound Track should be turned into a storage track so those cars can come out of the elements and into some place that has protection. The Queens Bound local track would remain open for continuous movement of cars. At Hoyt St, a wall could be erected with a gate to keep the vandals out. At Court St, another gate could be erected at the crossover to keep those wandering in the tunnel on the track still open out. There are gates in the Transit Museum, but that's enough to protect the equipment in the station. But if both tracks at Hoyt St could be walled up, then the gates could be pushed back from a point at the Museum to the edge of the station at Hoyt St. It would be really nice to take the cars out of Coney Island and put them under some shelter.
-Stef
Not unless you can find someway to squeeze them into the Transit Museum. I think that one of the two Fulton St Local Tracks between each set of switches (the pair at Hoyt and the other at Court), namely what would have been the Manhattan Bound Track should be turned into a storage track so those cars can come out of the elements and into some place that has protection. The Queens Bound local track would remain open for continuous movement of cars. At Hoyt St, a wall could be erected with a gate to keep the vandals out. At Court St, another gate could be erected at the crossover to keep those wandering in the tunnel on the track still open out. There are gates in the Transit Museum, but that's enough to protect the equipment in the station. But if both tracks at Hoyt St could be walled up, then the gates could be pushed back from a point at the Museum to the edge of the station at Hoyt St. It would be really nice to take the cars out of Coney Island and put them under some shelter.
-Stef
Sounds like a good idea. Now the trick is to get the TA to do it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Problem is it would be trading one set of bad elements: rain, wind and sun, for an equaly poor one. Steel dust.
When Mike had them down there for stoarge in the 1980's they collected a tremendous layer of dirt on them and in their control apparatus.
What makes things worse is that then they were no longer easily accesible for cleaning repair and inspection. A lengthy and costly(in clout not cash) trip down the Culver line would be neccesary to do that.
So out doors or no they are in the best place available short of storing them all in the overhaul shop.
The TA is generous to Mike and Co. but not THAT generous!
Problem is it would be trading one set of bad elements: rain, wind and sun, for an equaly poor one. Steel dust.
When Mike had them down there for stoarge in the 1980's they collected a tremendous layer of dirt on them and in their control apparatus.
What makes things worse is that then they were no longer easily accesible for cleaning repair and inspection. A lengthy and costly(in clout not cash) trip down the Culver line would be neccesary to do that.
So out doors or no they are in the best place available short of storing them all in the overhaul shop.
The TA is generous to Mike and Co. but not THAT generous!
Its a shame. Maybe it would be better to store them in a secure yard which is not near the ocean, so at least the cars won't be exposed to constant salt air.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Maybe it would be better to store them in a secure yard which is not near the ocean ..
... like 36th St MoW Yard. The trains can be stored indoors at the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St .....
--Mark
The last time Mike stored cars there, they were heavily vandalized. If they were properly maintained, CI would be fine.
We are having a lot of rain today. Are the triplexes OK with all this water, as well as the hordes of spirited youth desperate to tag them with graf-/scratchiti?
I would find it hard to believe that grafitti artists would get to his train, as it's somewhat hidden, in the middle of the yard and surrounded by trains that are used in revenue service, which is the whole point of tagging trains to begin with (to have your "art" shown all over the city).
I would find it hard to believe that grafitti artists would get to his train, as it's somewhat hidden, in the middle of the yard and surrounded by trains that are used in revenue service, which is the whole point of tagging trains to begin with (to have your "art" shown all over the city).
You never know. Besides, being out in the elements, especially with all that salt air is not doing those cars any good. I think they should get them inside where they can be protected from the elements and the vandals.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If my garage was big enough, I'd offer them a home with me....but my wife might get annoyed with no place to park her car....lol
If my garage was big enough, I'd offer them a home with me....but my wife might get annoyed with no place to park her car....lol
If she has a sub-compact, just put it on the train, or under the train. It would be like a Chiwawa under a Great Dane.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Sicko! :)
-Hank
Not the Taco Bell Chihuahua!!
I wonder if anyone has a 137-foot-long garage...
How difficult would it be to just build a roof over the tracks? Something like those big, open-sided tents we had in the scouts, only with a real roof that doesn't leak. Hell, why not recycle the redbirds in this manner? Stack 'em and rack 'em!
-Hank
The D-types are NOT in good shape. #6112 has more rust than steel. Rumor has it that the TA would like the one in the museum (6095) saved and the two in Coney Island (6019, 6112) sold/scrapped (Unlike the LO-V's, R1-9's & AB's, The D's ARE owned by the TA and the TA wants nothing to do with them. They have the flaky white stuff and the shop personel won't touch them) Mike wants to work on them but the TA keeps saying no. I forgot to mention that they don't run anymore (Dead/blown motors), Only 2 of the 6 sections have lights and one of the two compressors are dead. Overall the cars are not doing good. At this point I'd rather see them scrapped. Much longer the way they currently are and I wouldn't be suprised if they start to break apart. (Especially 6112)
I never thought I would say this but, I agree with you. In their current condition, They are better off scrapped.........
I never thought I would say this but, I agree with you. In their current condition, They are better off scrapped.........
Would it be possible to cannibalize 6019 and 6112? That way, 2 units can be saved instead of just 1. Two out of three ain't bad! If they did that, they could still use the 2 units on fan trips, and just put 6095 back in the museum when the trip is over. I can't see scrapping 2 of the 3 units they have. I can't see never running the D-Type again. There's got to be a way. If the TA doesn't want it, let them give it to Branford.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The sad thing is the TA won't even bring them in the shop for their annual inspection. To add insult to injury, The last time I was in them (Tuesday) I found 73 cigarette butts. (That's right, 73!!!), Seveal seat bottoms were on the floor in clusters. (The employees need a place to sleep. LOL) Real vandals can't get in, but some are from within.
Likw I said, The TA want's nothing to do with them.
BTW
We generally don't go to them unless we have to (Too many tracks to cross at night) But the Guests (?) who were in them left many windows open. Let them rust with no addad help.
I had a bad feeling about this. The Transit Authority is not in the Railfan Business, so they feel it's time to get rid of some old stuff which will not serve them any purpose. They have one unit which is safe and sound at the Transit Museum, and duplicates aren't necessary. As was the case of the Q Car (the only car of its type left on the TA property), it looks like 6095ABC will be a sole survivor. You can run it on excursions by itself, but there won't be enough seats to accomodate everyone.
Sell it to the Railway Preservation Corporation? They have enough cars to worry about. Those folks probably don't need anymore headaches. The D-Types will take up even more space in the yard if they were to be acquired. Try telling that to the people in charge of the yard.
It is my sincerest hope that they don't go off to the scrap line. Perhaps one of the Museums can take them in. As a representative of Branford, all I can say to acquisition of a D Type is questionable. Money and stoarage space are two BIG questions that need to be answered. One member had a fantasy about bringing one up, but that's all it is, a fantasy. I don't know how many members would actually favor such an acqusisition. The ultimate decision lies with Trustees. If one were to be acquired, where would we put it? There's no storage space to put it under a barn roof. It would wind up sitting outside and the same process of degradation would happen all over again. I have no easy solutions to offer, but I can only hope for the best....
-Stef
I had a bad feeling about this. The Transit Authority is not in the Railfan Business, so they feel it's time to get rid of some old stuff which will not serve them any purpose. They have one unit which is safe and sound at the Transit Museum, and duplicates aren't necessary. As was the case of the Q Car (the only car of its type left on the TA property), it looks like 6095ABC will be a sole survivor. You can run it on excursions by itself, but there won't be enough seats to accomodate everyone.
The Railway Preservation Corp. buying the cars seems to be the only hope for them. So, if it takes 10-15 years to restore them, at least they could be saved. Like I said in a previous post, if it means cannibalizing 6019 and 6112 to make 1 good running untit, they should do it. Then, at least 6095 could run along with the other remaining D unit on fan trips. In the 1970's, all three never ran. The museum D was 6019 and 6095, with 6112 in the museum. Since, 6095 took the place of 6112 in the museum and 6112 has been running with 6019 on trips. When was the last time the D-Type was used on a trip? Was it the 12/1995 Nostalgia Special? Geez! I remember when Nostalgia Specials ran every Saturday and Sunday. It was either the D-Type, R-1/9 or A/B. Man, those were the days! The TA ran the Nostalgia Special as a promotional for the Transit Museum. I still have a car ad for the Nostalgia Special in my house showing the A/B crossing Jamaica Bay going out to the Rockaways.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When was the last time the D-Type was used on a trip? Was it the 12/1995 Nostalgia Special?
The last D-Type trip was October 18th, 1998, where we traced the old BMT QT route from 57th St/7th Ave in Manhattan to Stillwell Ave / Coney Island in Brooklyn, and then went back via the Sea Beach line to 57th St/ 7th Ave. Express between 59th St and DeKalb Ave.
Geez! I remember when Nostalgia Specials ran every Saturday and Sunday.
Me, too. You had your choice of Coney Island, the Rockaways or the Cloisters. I still have a few of the tickets they used to give out.
--Mark
Mark: It was reading about those fan trips that got my interested in getting on line on this website. Boy, what I'd do to be able to ride a D-type Triplex Sea Beach to Coney Island once again. I would be a 12 year old kid once again. Is there any such trip planned in the forseeable future? Boy, would that be a kick in the head.
At least you had a chance to ride the Triplexes in their heyday. I was never so lucky. Had fate been kinder in July of 1965, I would have at least seen them on the West End Express. Their last day of service was on the very same day we left for home.
6095 appears to be in decent shape, at least cosmetically. It would be a shame to see the other two units scrapped, but if they're beyond salvaging, there may be no other choice.
Even if Branford were to acquire one of them, I have my doubts if they would ever run it. It would probably consume more power than all of the streetcars that are there combined. Another question is: would the track stand up to it? Those suckers are HEAVY; we're talking over 100 tons.
Is there any such trip planned in the forseeable future?
Not in their present condition, I'm afraid.
--Mark
Does anyone know why they stopped running regular Nostalgia Specials--why they stopped doing them every weekend?
Speaking of fantrips... Does anyone know if Railway Preservation Corp intends to run another trip on the Lo- V's?
Not until we get them re-wired. They are in good cosmetic shape, but have bad wiring which dates from the 50's and must be replaced before we run them again. Last trip was almost substituted by redbirds or called off because of problems with the wiring.
I somewhat agree with you, that half a loaf is better than none, but it seems a shame to just give up on any still-existing historical subway cars such as these.
Dumb question!!! When you give a car number for a triplex is that number for all 3 articulated sections or just one. In other words are the 2 in Coney Is 6 sections or 2? I know its a dumb question but I really don't know!!!
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It is 6019A, 6019B, 6019C, 6112A, 6112B, 6112C to be correct. Three sections to a unit.
Couldn't they save at least 1 unit? That's better than nothing.
Couldn't they save at least 1 unit? That's better than nothing.
Yes, they could run one unit, but conditions would be like crush hour. Fan trips are an all-day thing. You're basically on the train from 10 AM to 5 PM. There needs to be seats for everybody, and freedom of movement is important for photo stops. The only way to run one unit is to limit the amount of tickets sold, and that would mean that many people would be left out - many unhappy people. The shortest fan trip train was the 3-car A/B - 2390, 2391 and 2392, making up a 201' train. One D-Type unit is the equivelant of 2 A/B's. That would be a 134' train. The 2-unit D-Type is 268' long.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/06/2000
And now the million dollar question. Will Railway Preservation buy the "D"'s to save two of the three units from being scrapped?
I also doubt seriously that Branford would acquire one unit. So far they're up to their eyebrows in subway equipment, maintaining them in their shop would be a nightmare and the sheer weight of these bad boys would give the roadbed and trestles problems. Maybe the Illinois Railroad Museum? I know it's a far from Brooklyn, but it beats the scrappers torch.
Bill Newkirk
And now the million dollar question. Will Railway Preservation buy the "D"'s to save two of the three units from being scrapped?
I also doubt seriously that Branford would acquire one unit. So far they're up to their eyebrows in subway equipment, maintaining them in their shop would be a nightmare and the sheer weight of these bad boys would give the roadbed and trestles problems. Maybe the Illinois Railroad Museum? I know it's a far from Brooklyn, but it beats the scrappers torch.
Bill Newkirk
If they acquire more subway equipment, they would have to change their name to Branford Subway Yard, or Coney Island Yard, North Annex. Hey, that wouldn't be a bad idea! Expand Branford and make a trolley museum on one side and a subway museum on the other side. All they need is money! Hey, don't we all! We can dream, can't we? If Bill Gates is really a railfan, maybe he can help.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Actually, the Illinois Railway Museum isn't such a bad idea. Their mainline is certainly up to the task of handling the weight of one of those behemoths, as they run North Shore equipment on it, even a diesel loco, IIRC. They did a super job restoring the Elctroliner they have to its former North Shore glory.
Cut the bad steel out and replace it new corrosion proof steel. Meg welders do an excellent job today.
If the cars are not repaired then the D types will be referred to as a Destroyer Car. The D types are great triplexes and I drove them in 1972 on the Sea Beach line. What power and slow acceleration but they drive like a tank.
Why did the BMT reverse the controller and brake valve. Seems scrwy to me.
Maybe the R143 should be replacement for the D types.
01/06/2000
Mr.Train Control,
Perhaps you may not have seen an earlier post but, it sounds like the TA is not interested in repairing the "D"'s. It looks like they want to save the best of the 3 units to become a "static display" in the museum.
Even Bill gates money won't save the "D"'s if the TA is hell bent on scrapping them. Remember what happened to Museum R-6-2 #1208 ? It was scrapped so fast we didn't know what hit us.
Bill Newkirk
Remember what happened to Museum R-6-2 #1208 ? It was scrapped so fast we didn't know what hit us.
No, what happened to it (I know it's scrapped but what led up to its scrapping so "quickly"?
--Mark
1208 was an unfortunate victim of feuding parties. I won't say who, but the car unecessarily went to scrap. If someone else who knows what I'm talking about wants to go into detail, go ahead.
-Stef
That car was a G.E. The other cars in the R1/9 fleet are Westinghouse. I heard there would be a maintance problem with it was kept. That car was abused since, if I recall, it was a horse on the garbage train while it was part of the museum fleet. I may be wrong...
Stef said it. It was in house political fighting. I won't say any more to preserve the peace. Some nerves are still sore on this one. Suffice it to say the car was scrapped for nothing more than spite.
For what reason was 2958 scrapped in 1990? That was supposed to go to the museum as well.
To stop others from getting scrapped, Railway Preservation Corp. purchased the remaining R1-9's, AB's and LO-v's along with various work equiptment. Let's hope the TA owned D type will not go the way of 1208
Wow ... then maybe 1208 didn't "die" in vain ... it appears it led to the creation of RPC, to preserve the remaining cars, which to me is a GOOD thing.
--Mark
The shame is that 1208 was the only GE R1-9 in the museum fleet (Sigh).
01/10/2000
Yeah, something that happened when the original Pennnsylvania Station was demolished and the Landmarks Commission was established. If Penn didn't die, Grand Central would have years later and not restored.
Bill Newkirk
It makes you wonder how Southern Division motormen felt when the R-27s began arriving. Now they had to contend with reversed controls (to them, anyway) and SMEE braking to boot.
I heard about that trait of the Triplexes. They didn't accelerate all that fast, but once they got going, watch out!
And now the million dollar question. Will Railway Preservation buy the "D"'s to save two of the three units from being scrapped?
I also doubt seriously that Branford would acquire one unit. So far they're up to their eyebrows in subway equipment, maintaining them in their shop would be a nightmare and the sheer weight of these bad boys would give the roadbed and trestles problems. Maybe the Illinois Railroad Museum? I know it's a far from Brooklyn, but it beats the scrappers torch.
Bill Newkirk
If they acquire more subway equipment, they would have to change their name to Branford Subway Yard, or Coney Island Yard, North Annex. Hey, that wouldn't be a bad idea! Expand Branford and make a trolley museum on one side and a subway museum on the other side. All they need is money! Hey, don't we all! We can dream, can't we? If Bill Gates is really a railfan, maybe he can help.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Branford would have real serious problems handling a D-type
in our current track layout. It's 137 feet long and it can't
be split too easily. There aren't too many places that could fit.
When I was on that R32 N train going southbound after Dekalb I noticed wheel detectors, but unlike the ones I've seen on the Lexington avenue these lit up, some of them flashing. Was my train speeding or something, or are they supposed to do that?
There was a ton of wheel detectors around there. Maybe it was a special signal about the train running express on Sea Beach?
This also happens on the six as it approaches the City Hall Loop. I'm not quite sute what it means but I think it is just alerting The T/O because the trains at the City Hall Loop are definetly going at the right speed for the WD's and it still flashes.
The wheel detector system is in effect when either a diverging route is set and it's signals are cleared for movement or when a speed restriction in an area governed by wheel detector indication signals is enforced. Take for instance a train approaching the WD fixed signal displaying WD30, north of W.4th Street on the IND 6th Av track B3. If it is supposed to cross to the local track B1 and the signals and route are cleared, the operator should have the train at no more than 30 MPH. The WD signal should display a solid lunar white. If the operator increases speed within the restricted area, the signal or following signals will flash until the train slows down to the speed limit posted by the WD fixed signal. One major advantage is that unlike a river tube where some operators can attain speeds of almost 55 MPH by cheating grade timers or resuming speed too early after the crossover, the wheel detectors ENSURE that the rear end of the train will proceed through the restricted area at the posted speed. Of course with modern technology, the TA put axle speed and time/date recorders into the system to catch violators. When an overspeed condition occurs, an alarm goes off inside the signal tower governing the interlocking or restricted speed area so it is harder to cover up unlike the grade timer. In the case of Brooklyn Bridge, the signal system should be banged out to control center if the light does not stop flashing as it does not conform to the bulletin. I once called in the WD setup at Bergen Street reporting the same condition. I later learned that an operator was taken out of service for an overspeed condition at the same location. The report of the failure and subsequent G2 helped the train operator at arbitration.
Is it the same idea for the Wheel Detector on the #7 Line? The Manhattan-Bound track has a "WD10" at the 1st Avenue Interlocking, with a "WDEND" sign as well.
We were by the interlocking after Dekalb where the N switches to the 4th avenue track (F1)and then later to the 4th avenue express track (F3). As you said, the WD's flashed, the train applied brakes, and the WD's then had a solid lunar white.
They probably put WD's in since this is an important interlocking where speeding wouldn't be tolorated.
I don't remember seeing them a few months ago though.
BTW I like those river tubes. Lately I've had a few operators really gunning in after the GT's in the 53rd street tube while riding the F.
The train applies and releases brakes upon entering the tube with the yellow GT's, but after the last one clears they race it on through.
It's especially fast on the R44's and R46's used on the F.
Monday the trains were running pretty fast on most lines, even the 7 trains seemed to go pretty fast after the GT's in the Steinway tubes.
I wish more T/O's would do this, since I can't understand the train crawling after we passed the GT's.
The D derailed leaving DeKalb southbound a few years ago. Now the D has GT/ST's into Dekalb and I guess they threw in WD for the N. I also think they got rid of the signal fleeting, does the signal stay red at Dekalb until a punch or is the computer still controling the interlock from the pervious punches?
The risk is high when an operator passes the yellow/S before it clears to green. If the Yellow/S hangs up, you know the next red will not be clear and if the speed is too great, I'm representing an operator at a hearing. To get an extra MPH or two isn't worth it. I encourage operators to follow speed limits for the passengers safety and the operator's job security. If the TA wants trains to go 60 MPH, they would go to a cab signal type setup and maybe a floating block system and fix the trains and rails to accomodate high speed operation. But the TA insists on spending money to eliminate union personel and slowing trains to save on power consumption. Eric came up with an excellent design months back for the suggestion box involving the relay in the master controller and a sensor built into the speedometer so trains can run at full field strength on downgrades and at full power on upgrades. The only reason the TA is going high tech is so they can eliminate more personel. I'd bet good money that while Amtrak is tinkering with their 150 MPH Acela sets, the arriving R143s will be no better than an R68 with P-Wire.
I'm impressed with your knowledge of two block grade time signaling. Your comments are correct.
NICE JOB!!!
And I'm one of those train operators the daily news refered to as illiterate and couldn't pass a test. Thank you.
I noticed today on a southbound #1...front signage reading "11" with
a Purple backround, car was mid-train....wonder where it could be used??? any thoughts??
The 11 was going to be the Flushing Express but that has not yet to happen
The 11 was going to be the Flushing Express but that has not yet to happen
7-11! I like it!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not yet to happen? Will it ever happen?
Probably, if the R62a make their way to the Flushing line....
3TM
This is the 4th trains I've seen or heard about not displaying the right sign. When I was in NYC, I saw 2 trains on the 1 at about 1:15 PM saying 9. We've also been posting about a R train with the brown diamond (not yellow circle). WHY DON'T THE OPERATORS BOTHER TO DISPLAY THE CORRECT SIGN???
To them the R is a R is a R. so any R will due. Most people will not notice the difference, as long as the see the Marker Line
I still laugh when I recall the (R32) "Q" train (before it became 100% R40) signed up as "O". And now and agin I see "W"s mixed in the side signs of "N" trains (R40 cars).
Wayne
Where are the yard leads from the Queens IND to the Jamaica Yard? I remember when I was on the Grand Central Parkway a long time ago I saw a rail bridge with subway cars crossing it. Could that be the yard leads? If that is it must be a pretty steep grade down to the Queens IND.
That sounds like it.
-Stef
Indeed, the Jamaica Yard leads cross over the GCP near the Kew Gardens interchange. However, when the tracks leave the yard, they actually travel upgrade to the Queens Blvd line.
That is the 4 track lead into Jamaica Yard. The 4 tracks are actually level at that point. From North to south, the tracks are numbered D5, D6, D9 and D10. D5 and D6 turn right and actually climb about 30 feet from under the 75th Ave. station to the North end of the Continental Avenue Station where they join the main line. D9 and D10 turn to the left and climb about the same 30 feet (a bit steeper grade) and join the main line between Union Tpke. and VanWyck Blvd.
The following New York City metropolitan area related items are currently being offered on eBay:
227208605 (Subway Brooklyn Rockaway Canarsie), 227675456 (Articulated Subway Cars), 227692688 (Third Avenue Railway System), 228466741 (Brooklyn PCC Cars), 228475918 (Pennsylvania Railroad Hudson and East River Tunnels - an extremely rare book), 230248814 (original IRT 1913 Employee Magazine), 230999720 (Long Island Railroad Employee Magazine), 229915263 (IRT 70th Anniversary) and 229915676 (IRT 1939 World’s Fair Cars).
Stop Lurking here for 2 weeks and everything goes to pot...if I catch him...
During tonight's rush hour I was on an uptown 6. The interesting thing was that the C/R - T/O intercom was being broadcast over the PA. Just some chit chat until after we pulled away from a stop the C/R said to the T/O: "Why do all those fat people have to squeeze in at the last minute."
With all the safety measures used on trains, does anyone know about a sharp curve or downhill stretch of track WITHOUT either a one or two shot GT?
I know of several. Most dangereous is on A4 between 28th and 34th. Trains can be doing as much as 40 there when they get to the curve which is marked 30 if I remember correctly. If a motorman isn't paying attention it's just a scary ride, but in the old days of full power a derailment at 55 mph.
Many curves without timers where there should be. There are others in place that don't make sense. I'd put one north of Liberty and North of Van Siclen on A4. North of Christopher St on track 2 on the 7th Av express. South of Hoyt on track A2 for the crossover to Hoyt would be nice too. Why did the TA put one in place south of Bway East New York on both upgrade northbound tracks? Why not grade timers in all directions in and out of Grand Central. This post would take forever to identify all the safety hazards to the NTSB. And too dangerous to take to the membership. Some are in a hurry to go home before they have started their first trip.
With the talk about a need for a new crossing over the Hudson River, why isn't the old Poukeepsie Bridge rehabilitated? If it cannot be used, then what is keeping the powers that be from building a tunnel under the Hudson for freight operation only? The money is there, the need is there, so what gives?
[With the talk about a need for a new crossing over the Hudson River, why isn't the old Poukeepsie Bridge rehabilitated? If it cannot be used, then what is keeping the powers that be from building a tunnel under the Hudson for freight operation only? The money is there, the need is there, so what gives?]
Much of the right-of-way leading up to the bridge on the west side of the river has been lost. Acquiring sufficient space would be extremely expensive and might not be possible at any price. In addition, using Poughkeepsie might not be much of a savings over the current Selkirk route.
... especially if the second Tappan Zee Bridge sees the light of day. There's a public hearing on this today.
--Mark
Are you going? Can you report on what transpires, in case it's not covered -- or only marginally covered -- in NYC media?
I'll try to get a copy of the Rockland Journal News tomorrow morning and report on anything it has. I won't be there myself (I don't even know where it is, other than that it's today).
--Mark
I can't imagine who is going to end up paying for that one. I can't believe it. That bridge is less than 50 years old. They let it rot even WITH a toll? They can't do anything about the Manhattan Bridge, but they can do a new Tappen Zee?
The plan is not to replace the existing bridge, but to add a second span a la Delaware Memorial Bridge.
(Add a second span)
Hmmm. That I'd like to see. Won't the approach roads still be a bottleneck, or are they prepared to take property to widen those as well?
I guess you could make a case for 12 lanes to the two junctions of I87 and I287, with rail service besides. The NIMBY issues would be a killer, however.
I was just recently thinking about that. I had an idea to connect the Hudson line with the line to Port Jervis and the line to Spring Valley, eliminating the trek through New Jersey. Then extending the Port Jervis line through to the Catskills when they put gambling in.
The new proposed span is supposed to have room for a rail link.
Pataki made this announcement (about the 2nd span) on Newsradio88 in New York last year.
--Mark
There's the alternative to the big bucks rail freight tunnel -- unless they put the rails on the outside and make it a suspension bridge.
Isn t that Pataki s old neighborhood? to make it easier for him to get home
Isn t that Pataki s old neighborhood?
No - his old neighborhood was Peekskill. The Tappan Zee connects Nyack with Tarrytown.
Actually, a comment made by a Rockland homeowner at the meeting was that Pataki should build the bridge in his own neighborhood connecting Peekskill with Haverstraw.
Property owners in Nyack are concerned with their property values and what the construction would do to them. Drivers are all for it, saying that something has to be done to alleviate the congestion. The bridge is part of the reason wy so many people moved to Rockland after its opening, so it's a victim of its own success.
The bridge was originally planned to handle 100K vehicles a day; it regularly handles 150K. The cost to maintain the bridge through 2012 is $1 billion, close what it would cost to build a replacement bridge. The I-287 corridor task force is reviewing alternatives for the bridge and expects to present them and its recommendation to the governor next month. The replacement bridge would be 8 - 10 lanes wide with provisions for rail "or other mass transit options". This would be a replacement - not a second bridge (as some on this forum thought).
Nyack residents were also skeptical of promises the Thruway Authority made (or will make); an old timer cited that on 11/2/1950, then-Governor Dewey stood about a block from the place where this meeting took place and said there were no plans for a bridge; 3 weeks later, engineering and technical plans for that bridge would be released.
Interesting that this is not covered at all at the Journal News' web site.
--Mark
The next time there is a meeting on this subject (replacement vs. patch and pray) someone should show up and mention the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe we could get the state to replace them both.
I always avoid the Tappen Zee bridge. It was congested back in the 1960s, due to people driving back from the Catskills. I used to hate to visit friends of my parents in Rockland -- we'd sit for what seemed like hours on the way back.
A case could be made for expanding the roads, now that I-287 is built. More capacity, and a rail freight, could take through trucking away from the Cross Bronx, another road I never take.
But that's just it: you'd have to expand the roads, not just the bridge. Is there room? Talk about NIMBY. Same thing with the Goethals and the Verrazano. No sense having a six lane road feed a twelve lane bridge.
[Same thing with the Goethals and the Verrazano. No sense having a six lane road feed a twelve lane bridge. ]
The Goethal's was 4 lanes the last time I checked.
The reason they opened the lower level of the VNB was to provide redundancy in case an accident blocked the upper level.
The next time there is a meeting on this subject (replacement vs. patch and pray) someone should show up and mention the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe we could get the state to replace them both.
It would do no good. The Thruway Authority has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge.
--Mark
Right, but isn't the thruway authority a state agency, and isn't the Manhattan bridge a property of the State of NY?
-Hank
Manhattan Bridge is NYC property.
As I understand it, all of the highway infrastructure in NYC is owned by the state, with the city as the regular maintainer. For major projects, the state oversees the project, such as the repaving of the Staten Island Expressway. Lots of state DOT people on the job there. (State DOT logo is a blue cicrle with a 'T' in it, very similar to AT&T's logo.)
-Hank
"Ownership" varies for different facilities. The Manhattan Bridge was authorized, built and paid for entirely by New York City. There was no state action, not even authorizing legislation.
Highways that are built with any federal funds are owned by the NY State because the feds deal only with state governments. Reconstruction projects that are financed by the feds are managed by NY State for the same reason.
Streets and roads are ususally divided into state maintenance and local mainentance. Technically, any road with a state highway designation (NY 27, NY 440, etc.) would be maintained by state crews, but as big as New York City is, the rules get changed around a little here.
I think the important issue is, relative to its population, there are only a handful of miles designated state highways and maintained with state funding in NYC -- even in the downstate area as a whole. That's why I think it's fair to have state taxes pay to maintain what downstate does have -- subway and RR rights of way.
It gets even more interesting. The state can shift appropriated federal money between approved projects in any fiscal year. The state rammed Westway down the City's throat. While foes tied Westway up in the courts, the state received construction money for the project. The state used this money to build roads upstate on an accelerated schedule.
(The state can shift transportation money out of the city for the Tappen Zee.)
Guess we know what will happen to the former Gowanus Expressway, now that Molinari refused to back W.
Actually, I think the tolls will pay for it, but it puts the state in a bad position for the inevitable environmental lawsuit. Concede you are counting on more tolls, and the NIMBYs will claim the new bridge will generate traffic and violate the clean air act. Say you will use the existing tolls, and you wonder where the money will come from.
The strategy -- we'll have to spend a billion fixing the bridge anyway, and it might not work. They can point to you know what as an example.
" provisions for rail "or other mass transit options"."
Maybe they can run the #1 line over the bridge to Nyack.
N Broadway Express
Good Idea, but Good Luck in seeing it happen...
Frank D
[(Add a second span)
Hmmm. That I'd like to see. Won't the approach roads still be a bottleneck, or are they prepared to take property to widen those as well?
I guess you could make a case for 12 lanes to the two junctions of I87 and I287, with rail service besides. The NIMBY issues would be a killer, however.]
From what I hear, rail is part of the proposal. I've noticed, though, that by the time things get built the rail component has a tendency to disappear.
According to all the reports I've read, the plan is for a direct replacement, not a twin span. There are other factors on the TZ bridge, such as the fact that it is actually floating, and not achored to the river bottom.
-Hank
For me, I'd hate to see anything negative happening to that beautiful bridge. A second, parallel span would be nice, as many areas across the country have done to inadequate spans.
Now, my focus is once again on Governor's Island. The talks are starting up again about what to do with it. All sorts of ideas are in the works. My question: how will masses of people get to this island?
A ferry such as the one the Coast Guard operated will be inadequate for large amounts of people to get to whatever they put there. Where will cars park before people get on the boats? Will cars be aloud on the island? What about mass transit? Build another tunnel only to have
it lie unused?
I have a novel approach to the Gov Island situation: why not use it as a military installation!! After all, with all the talk of terrorism wouldn't it make sense to keep NY protected?
Joe C
Now, my focus is once again on Governor's Island. The talks are starting up again about what to do with it. All sorts of ideas are in the works. My question: how will masses of people get to this island?
A ferry such as the one the Coast Guard operated will be inadequate for large amounts of people to get to whatever they put there. Where will cars park before people get on the boats? Will cars be aloud on the island? What about mass transit? Build another tunnel only to have it lie unused?
Quick question: was the Transit Museum station ever intended to serve a line that continued to Governor's Island? Looking at the maps, that's the only reason I can think of that would justify building a one-station spur like that.
I'm obviously not caught up on my history here, so please forgive me if this is a well-known subject.
Regardless of intent, that would seem like a reasonable plan to me if Governor's Island were to become developed. You could re-activate that station, run a line down Henry or a parallel street, then dig a short tunnel to the island. You could go to Baltic and dig the tunnel, going over/under the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, or go down to Union St and go under Brooklyn-Battery before it goes under water.
Does that make any sense?
[Quick question: was the Transit Museum station ever intended to serve a line that continued to Governor's Island? Looking at the maps, that's the only reason I can think of that would justify building a one-station spur like that.]
It was supposed to be part of a new line between Manhattan and Brooklyn. I would highly doubt that there had ever been any plans for a Governor's Island station, as the island was an Army base presumably with restricted access.
It was supposed to be part of a new line between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I guess that was before all of the four other tunnels just north of it were built, or at least before they were all operated by the same organization...
I would highly doubt that there had ever been any plans for a Governor's Island station, as the island was an Army base presumably with restricted access.
Makes sense.
Congress had to force down DOD's throat to have an escape/venttilation tower for the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel there. It block the view of some private officer's (flag rank) houses too.
Governor's Island is a great place. We had a P.S. School there but all the older childern went to the city for school. The Coast Guard would open it up twice a year and give tours of both forts there. Also on the Buttermilk channel side you would see all the impounded boats, some nice ones were there too>G<.
With the Coast Guard having given up on Governor's Island there is talk that it will be turned over to either the Smithsonian Institute (because of the many historic forts there) or the Dept. of the Interior (perhaps as a part of Gateway).
Also, there are plans that would turn the large officer's building (supposedly the largest in the United States) into a four star hotel. But that aspect might only come about it/when the Governor's Island casino plans get finalized (yeah, right....dream on).
Should Governor's Island be opened up to the general public the idea of a subway link would make alot of sense (or even some kind of Roosevelt Island-like tram system).
Doug aka BMTman
I figure you would have both the existing ferry service, and a new transit museum. Let's dream a little dream....
Build out the line from Court St to Governer's Isl, then hook it to the 2nd Ave line. Build a spur on the island, and a new building to house the entire museum collection, buses and trains. Ban private vehicles from the island, and to keep the island 'pollution-free' use either battery-buses or trolley buses to shuttle people around the island. (Or perhaps a Miami-style people-mover, given that we're dreaming.)
-Hank
Why not connect from Court Street (the Museum) under Governor's Island into the upper level at Broad Street? The unbuilt Nassau-Chystie connection could then finally be built, which could give access from Nassau/Centre (and Montague Street) to 2nd Avenue, 6th Avenue, and 8th Avenue.
The negative is, obviously, loss of the Museum.
I like the aerial tram idea, but would it be able to be high enough to clear East River shipping? And would it go from Manhattan (South Ferry) or from Brooklyn?
(I wouldn't particularly like a Manhattan landfall for a tram, though--it would strike me as another of those "anti-outer-boroughs" things done in the City--like letting Manhattan keep the original telephone area code while the rest of the City had to change to accommodate the Manhattan establishment.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I'm not a big fan of the plan. If the Federal Government just sells the land, and you get a lot of luxury development, the result will be a big chunk of net tax payments over service costs that could be used for services elsewhere. Somehow, attracting taxpayers offends our political culture, which is composed of people who want to spend other people's money.
As it is, the city will probably end up subsidizing a snobby preserve, accessible only to those who can afford a private ferry. The Municipal Art Society's dream come true.
[I'm not a big fan of the plan. If the Federal Government just sells the land, and you get a lot of luxury development, the result will be a big chunk of net tax payments over service costs that could be used for services elsewhere. Somehow, attracting taxpayers offends our political culture, which is composed of people who want to spend other people's money.
As it is, the city will probably end up subsidizing a snobby preserve, accessible only to those who can afford a private ferry. The Municipal Art Society's dream come true.]
Or worse, nobody will go there. Who wants to get on a ferry from the Downtown Business District to hang out in a park?
But from what I understand, Giuliani's privatization plans were frowned on by the Federal Government, which is why the $1 price is in question. They wanted to know why they should give the property to the City if the City was just going to sell it.
Seems to me they should either auction it off and let it be developed for residential purposes, or give it to Columbia or NYU for use as a downtown campus. It's ideally suited for that sort of thing; Columbia could move the business and law schools there, with dormitories and some of the larger laboratories, and free up some space on the way overcrowded Morningside Heights campus. An expansion of either university would benefit the City's economy.
Or NYU could move the entire University there and get out of the disgusting area where it is presently located. My daughter is considering both NYU and Columbia for law school; I hope she doesn't pick NYU, not because of any concern over the education itself - I'm sure that would be excellent - but because of the neighborhood. It seemed to be populated 100% by people whose cultural mores were, to say the least, significantly different than ours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Or NYU could move the entire University there and get out of the disgusting area where it is presently located. My daughter is considering both NYU and Columbia for law school; I hope she doesn't pick NYU, not because of any concern over the education itself - I'm sure that would be excellent - but because of the neighborhood. It seemed to be populated 100% by people whose cultural mores were, to say the least, significantly different than ours.]
Hey, that's my neighborhood! I love it down here, and while I can't claim I'm not creeped out at times, I find the freak show amusing more often than not.
Anyway, I wouldn't make too much of a few highly visible denizens who hang out in Washington Square Park; they aren't representative of most of the people who live there.
I hope not. The freakiest was about two blocks west and one block south of the park, where we passed a fellow dressed in full leather, hood included, carrying whips and a large spiked ball on the end of a chain. Gave me the shivers! And there were others almost as unnerving. What bothered me even more is that my daughter didn't seem terribly bothered by it - guess she's inured to such things. Not me, though - not ever!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I hope not. The freakiest was about two blocks west and one block south of the park, where we passed a fellow dressed in full leather, hood included, carrying whips and a large spiked ball on the end of a chain. Gave me the shivers! And there were others almost as unnerving. What bothered me even more is that my daughter didn't seem terribly bothered by it - guess she's inured to such things. Not me, though - not ever!]
Oh, him? That was just the Dean.
A large spiked ball on the end of a chain? -- Actually what you describe is a WEAPON called a mace. Sheesh, in the land of gun control (NY City) I'm surprised some officer of the law didn't make an arrest.
I think I've seen that guy! Did he have another guy on a leash?
-Hank:
PS-The weirdest thing I ever saw on a city street was a naked guy staring at the winows to Lord and Taylor on 5th Ave. Just standing there!
-Hanl
No, he was by himself, but the behavior you described wouldn't have surprised me, given the way he was dressed.
Back when we were full-time in North Carolina and I was actively involved in day-to-day business at the Hobby Shop, we had a young male customer (mid-twenties, I guess) who occasionally came in with two females of about the same age, one wearing a studded collar and the other wearing a leather harness. He held leashes connected to both; they normally walked in front of him, often holding hands with each other. Other than their style of dress and the leashes (okay, and their strangely-dyed hair) they seemed relatively normal, talking with him, with us, looking at and occasionally buying merchandise (he bought lots of balsa wood and small plastic structural shapes, the one girl bought lots of paint and model cars). But I've never seen anyone else like that in NC. This fellow in NYC was only the strangest of a bunch of weird ones all in the same area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can top that in strange. One time, last summer, I saw a fat man wearing only a loincloth on a moped.
[(I wouldn't particularly like a Manhattan landfall for a tram, though--it would strike me as another of those "anti-outer-boroughs" things done in the City--like letting Manhattan keep the original telephone area code while the rest of the City had to change to accommodate the Manhattan establishment.)]
It was the only thing that made sense. This new arrangement is for the dogs--dialing 11 digits to call someone in the apartment next door?
The area code itself doesn't matter.
But what are you going to do? split Manhattan along Fifth Avenue? I do think, however, that the 718/347 overlay is silly. There you have clear borders that you can use to split.
I do hope that the FCC doesn't shove 10 digit dialing down our throats, if it does, hopefully they won't make you dial 1 before the area code when dialing out of area, which will then be redundant.
I do hope that the FCC doesn't shove 10 digit dialing down our throats, if it does, hopefully they won't make you dial 1 before the area code when dialing out of area, which will then be redundant
Welcome to what has unfortunately become, the real world. Its been done before in other metro areas in the country. Miami is one.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Eventually it won't matter as i-phones become more popular.
Eventually it won't matter as i-phones become more popular
Two years ago, somebody gave me a prediction that in the near future, long distance phone service will be free, that it will be provided by our ISP's. I haven't tried using my PC on the Internet yet to make phone calls, so I don't know how reliable it is at this point. Give it time, though. It will be perfected. One thing I know has a long way to go before it is reliable is voice chat. It breaks up too much.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Two years ago, somebody gave me a prediction that in the near future, long distance phone service will be free, that it will be provided by our ISP's. I haven't tried using my PC on the Internet yet to make phone calls, so I don't know how reliable it is at this point. Give it time, though. It will be perfected. One thing I know has a long way to go before it is reliable is voice chat. It breaks up too much.]
I believe they're working on protocols that will prioritize Internet traffic to let high priority signals like real time audio and video pass unimpeded.
Long distance service is actually almost free now, if you have something like AT&T's 7c plan, because most of what you're paying goes to government subsidies.
The future is here. Try dialpad.com. Not perfect, but pretty damn close to what you're talking about.
Also, AT&T's big business plan right now is to buy up all the cable TV lines in the country and sell you high-speed Internet AND PHONE service through your cable line.
The future will be interesting, indeed...
The future is here. Try dialpad.com. Not perfect, but pretty damn close to what you're talking about.
Also, AT&T's big business plan right now is to buy up all the cable TV lines in the country and sell you high-speed Internet AND PHONE service through your cable line.
The future will be interesting, indeed...
I heard about that too. Bottom line is that the Internet will be at the center of everything communication wise, even TV. We will use our computers for everything - Web surfing, telephone calls, TV watching, radio listening. Also, even things that in the past were considered passive (TV and radio) will probably become interactive in the future. I play chess online in real time with people that I don't know and never met. You could even chat with the person while you're playing. When voice chat is made more reliable, I'll probably be able to talk with my chess opponents in real time as I'm playing them.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah. The one is only necessary if you are calling out of your local calling area. 10-digit dialing is going to be the wave of the future. The city currently has a waiver on the 10-digit requirement, which will eventually be repealed.
-Hank
[But what are you going to do? split Manhattan along Fifth Avenue? I do think, however, that the 718/347 overlay is silly. There you have clear borders that you can use to split.]
If Manhattan has to be split, at least let it be along a border. But does it really? It's still sharing 212 with the boros. I'd want to see a separate Manhattan area code first.
[I do hope that the FCC doesn't shove 10 digit dialing down our throats, if it does, hopefully they won't make you dial 1 before the area code when dialing out of area, which will then be redundant.]
The whole thing would be moot if the cheapo telcos would convert their switches to 8 digit dialing.
Manhattan has had 212 to itself since July 1, 1993.
[Manhattan has had 212 to itself since July 1, 1993.]
I didn't know that.
Philly is 100-percent 10-digit dialing. Dialing anything 7-digit just won't work. Next door, same area code - doesn't matter...
It's been that way for a while - I can honestly say it's really weird when I'm out of town and can dial 7 digits. 10-digit dialing isn't that bad. I got used to it very quickly.
The reason for overlays of course, is so no one has to change their number - and I prefer it that way. I'd rather dial 10 digits, (which is easy to get used to,) than lose touch with old friends, etc...
01/10/2000
We're all victims of technology. The added area codes are a result of an explosion on technology related equipment. Fax machines,computer modems and now cell phones. The eventually ran out of usuable numbers and expansion would mean area codes within area codes.
Bill Newkirk
Actually, you're 1/2 right. The other 1/2 is the increased competition for phone service. There was, a few months back, a long post on how numbers are assigned to companies in blocks of 10,000, yet they don't use all 10,000. (IE, Hank's Telephone is assigned all numbers within the 912 exchange, but I'm the only customer. I hav 9,999 available phone numbers, after I use my one.)
-Hank
They tried to do away with assigning blocks of 10,000 numbers to businesses in metro Denver in order to stretch the availability of 303 numbers. It worked for 6 months. We've had 10-digit dialing since February of 1998; it was voluntary until Oct. 1 of that year when the overlapping 720 area code was implemented, when it became mandatory. Splitting the 303 area was considered, but wasn't done.
As for multiple non-overlapping area codes in cities, look at Chicago. Only the Loop area has the good old 312 area code; the rest of Chicago is now 773.
[The reason for overlays of course, is so no one has to change their number - and I prefer it that way. I'd rather dial 10 digits, (which is easy to get used to,) than lose touch with old friends, etc...]
But if area codes are assigned geographically, people can keep their old numbers with new area codes.
But it's still a pain in the fanny. A significant portion of business relies on long-distance telephone calls, be they dialup data connections, fax, or real live voice. Changing the area code is a major impact. Dialing 10 digits is just something to get used to. You probably don't remember four, five, or six digit dialing, but there are some of us out here who do. I had four digit dialing as recently as 1982 - you should have heard the complaints when people found out they were going to have to dial seven digits to call their neighbor! But they got used to it, just as we will to 10 digit dialing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1981, I lived in Arlington, Virginia. That was area code 703. Right across the Potomac River was Washington, DC and area code 202; upstream a bit was Maryland and 301.
The weird thing was -- I could dial anything INSIDE the "Beltway", irregardless of area code, with just SEVEN digits. If it was outside the "Beltway", even in my own 703 area code, I had to dial TEN digits.
I had four digit dialing as recently as 1982
What? Four-digit dialing in 1982? Where?
North Carolina, Spring Hope exchange (Carolina Telephone, now Sprint). Four digits got you anyone else on the exchange. Two other exchanges were accessible by five-digit dialing. Anything beyond that you had to dial the operator first. We didn't get direct dial capability until June 1982. Now we still have seven digit dialing for some of the expanded local area but we have a new area code so we have to dial ten digits to reach parts of it, including the towns of Bunn (3.5 miles away, where I get my mail) and the county seat of Louisburg (15 miles away, which would also be my address if I used the rural route box). They drew the area code boundary approximately at the county line, but the 478 exchange straddles the Franklin-Nash line so (as always) those of us on the Franklin County side got stuck with a Nash County exchange and area code. Even 911, introduced to our area in 1995, still rings the wrong dispatch center for those of us on the Franklin County side.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
North Carolina, Spring Hope exchange (Carolina Telephone, now Sprint). Four digits got you anyone else on the exchange. Two other exchanges were accessible by five-digit dialing. Anything beyond that you had to dial the operator first. We didn't get direct dial capability until June 1982.
Wow. It sounds like NC didn't keep up with the rest of the country. NYC always had 7-digit dialing (I was born in 1954). When I moved to Florida in 1980, we had the 7-digit dialing here too. Although in NY, I didn't need a 1 when dialing long distance (going back to Aug. 1980), and when I got to Florida, we needed the 1 here. BTW, what do you mean by Carolina Telephone? I thought NC was served by BellSouth like Florida is. I thought the entire South was served by BellSouth (used to be Southern Bell).
North Carolina is served by several different telephone companies, depending on where you live. BellSouth (formerly Southern Bell) is one, Sprint (formerly Carolina Telephone and others that it absorbed) is another, GTE (or whatever they call themselves now) is a third, and there are probably others still out there. Until Sprint took over, Carolina Telephone was much cheaper and somewhat more reliable than Southern Bell; since the Sprint takeover it's been one rate increase after another, and forget service - our line goes bad whenever we get a hard rain and it takes days for them to fix it (still works, just horrible static, forget the Internet). The service number rings in some other state now, they don't care about the local people. When the area code split came they could have split our exchange so that those of us on the Franklin County side of the line had the same area code as the rest of the county, but noooo, that might have been good customer service. BellSouth did that in several places, but not Sprint. I could go on and on, but I won't ... we're drifting too far off topic already.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
North Carolina is served by several different telephone companies, depending on where you live. BellSouth (formerly Southern Bell) is one, Sprint (formerly Carolina Telephone and others that it absorbed) is another, GTE (or whatever they call themselves now) is a third, and there are probably others still out there.
GTE is the former name of Sprint.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No, they are distinct companies. GTE still exists, unless Bell Atlantic has gone through with buying it.
No GTE is still a seperate company. Of course, it could be a 'Norfolk Southern' thing. Bell Atlantic is in merger talks with GTE (or may actually have agreed to buy them) and MCI-Worldcom is trying to buy Sprint.
-Hank
Well, let's put it this way: New York City probably went to 7-digit dialing just as soon as it came out. IIRC, that may have been around 1949. South Bend, my hometown, had 5-digit dialing into the early 1950s, but I'm too young to remember that. I do remember phone numbers beginning with the letters of the exchange name; ours was CEntral 4-1639.
Baltimore (and the rest of the state) got 10-digit dialing last year. BA split the state in half in 1992 (east - 410; West - 301). Last year they proposed splitting again, but the business community in 410 screamed - they spent many $ changing everything when the first split occurred, so BA went to the overlay plan - 410 got 443 as overlay and 301 got 240. Our land and cells and pager is in 410, my daughter's page is 410, but her cell is 443.
As to exchange names, our 254 exchange used to be CLifton 4 - before that it was just CLifton. I have a WE model 302 with an original number card on my desk - it says "WAIT for Dial Tone; CLifton 5179".
When that number card was new, Peter Witts were newly on the 19 line,
half the line's service was worked with semi-convertibles. (See, I'm on topic.)
Only 10 digits! In parts of Jersey some municipalities are split between area codes and you have to dial 11 digits! (but still as a local call). In NYC to dial between 212 and 718 you dial as 1+718( or 1-212) and the number.
Here in my neck of the woods, you don't need to dial 1 for calls within the 303/720 area. I'll bet it's because the two area codes overlay the same area.
[But it's still a pain in the fanny. A significant portion of business relies on long-distance telephone calls, be they dialup data connections, fax, or real live voice. Changing the area code is a major impact. Dialing 10 digits is just something to get used to. You probably don't remember four, five, or six digit dialing, but there are some of us out here who do. I had four digit dialing as recently as 1982 - you should have heard the complaints when people found out they were going to have to dial seven digits to call their neighbor! But they got used to it, just as we will to 10 digit dialing.]
I do remember 4 and 5 digit dialing, and it made sense.
But--and it's a big but--10 digits = 10 billion different numbers, and there ain't 10 billion phones in Manhattan!
Well, 10 digits covers the entire US, Canada, and some offshore islands, not just Manhattan. Don't dial a number you don't know in area code 809, and now probably some other new codes - there are a lot of 900-type calls in that area code that aren't regulated by US law and they bill you for $25/minute or more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, 10 digits covers the entire US, Canada, and some offshore islands, not just Manhattan. Don't dial a number you don't know in area code 809, and now probably some other new codes - there are a lot of 900-type calls in that area code that aren't regulated by US law and they bill you for $25/minute or more.
where kis area code 809?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Down in the Caribbean - it covers several island nations, some of them with reasonable consumer protection laws and some without. And the new area codes have been assigned as overlays rather than assigning 809 to just one country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Down in the Caribbean - it covers several island nations, some of them with reasonable consumer protection laws and some without. And the new area codes have been assigned as overlays rather than assigning 809 to just one country.
Well, I'll keep away from that one. I thought all foreign dialing was different from dialing US numbers. Our access code is 1. Other countries have different ones. Is 809 accessed with a 1?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, it is. It goes back to the days when these countries, like the US and Canada, were all served by the Bell System. They still subscribe to what is now Telecordia for allocation of numbers, hence they fall under our area code system.
The scam most commonly practiced is this: you will receive a call, usually on your answering machine, with a message to dial an 809 number because someone in your family - identified by name - is in the hospital as the result of an accident. Naturally, you tend to panic, and dial the number without hesitating. Then they keep you on the line as long as possible at an (undisclosed) $25 or so per minute. The phone company gets a couple of dollars and the scammer gets the rest because it's essentially a 900 number. Because of the way the billing is set up, your long distance carrier will NOT credit you with the call, and it's not illegal in some of those countries to do this, so you're stuck. Trust me, your long distance carrier would love to stop this crap, because they are the ones who bear the brunt of the complaints, but so far they are powerless to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Because of the way the billing is set up, your long distance carrier will NOT credit you with the call, and it's not illegal in some of those countries to do this, so you're stuck. Trust me, your long distance carrier would love to stop this crap, because they are the ones who bear the brunt of the complaints, but so far they are powerless to do so.]
One possibility--a warning message whenever someone dials one of these area codes.
BTW, on the rare occasions when I've been the victim of one or another scam (generally collect calls at inflated prices), I've made it quite clear to the phone company that I won't pay the bill; they always eat it.
That's because there are laws that protect against that within our borders. The international situation is different, unfortunately.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
809 no longer covers the entire Carribean. Each island country now has it's own code. Codes to watch out for:
Anguilla 264
Antigua and Barbuda 268
Bahamas 242
Barbados 246
Bermuda 441
Cayman Islands 345
Dominica 767
Grenada 473
Jamacia 876
Montserrat 664
Nevis and St. Kitts 869
Puerto Rico 787
St. Lucia 758
St. Vincent and the Genadines 784
Trinidad & Tobago 868
Turks and Caicos 649
British Virgin Islands 284
US Virgin Islands 340
All others are 809. Guam and the Marianas are 670
For that matter, Illinois has 10 different codes, yet 10 states and the District (Montana, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, DC, New Mexico, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, and Idaho) have only one each.
-Hank
Puerto Rico 787
US Virgin Islands 340
Why should I watch out for these?
Why not? Unless you know someone there, don't call those area codes, because it'll ring up your phone bill like my sister at the thermostat!
-Hank
Well, in that case one should list Alaska and Hawaii too. They're farther even!
Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are subject to most but not all of the same laws against telefraud that protect the US. Also, unlike Alaska and Hawaii, they are not included in the "one-rate" plans that the major carriers offer - if I dial Alaska it costs me the same 7 center per minute that calling my daughter in Nevada, but if I call Puerto Rico it costs something like 29 cents per minute (figure not exact, I have never called there).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Josh Hill seems to have missed my point about the area codes--why wasn't Manhattan forced to change instead of the other boroughs having to change all their stationery, business cards, and the like? Manhattan doesn't have a majority of the City's residents but the "outer boroughs" get shafted time and again. Why is 'R' a 'Broadway' train rather than the 'Fourth Avenue' it was for most of its history? It's the subservience of the other boroughs to Manhattan in City Hall and TA thinking.
We're about to go through an area-code reconfiguration in northern New York--and they probably will expect us to accept that Syracuse will keep our area code while we have to change--some of us will be doing our best to fight it. Perhaps if the phone company were willing to pay for all the new stationery, directories, and listings that people are stuck paying for, and perhaps give us free calls to call everyone we know who has our pre-change number, it might be more palatable.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
[Josh Hill seems to have missed my point about the area codes--why wasn't Manhattan forced to change instead of the other boroughs having to change all their stationery, business cards, and the like? Manhattan doesn't have a majority of the City's residents but the "outer boroughs" get shafted time and again. Why is 'R' a 'Broadway' train rather than the 'Fourth Avenue' it was for most of its history? It's the subservience of the other boroughs to Manhattan in City Hall and TA thinking.]
It's not that the outer boroughs get shafted. Manhattan is by far the center of the City's business activity. So great is its dominance that it's almost pointless to speak of second place. It's no surprise, given this state of affairs, that it tends to be the focus of most forms of attention.
[We're about to go through an area-code reconfiguration in northern New York--and they probably will expect us to accept that
Syracuse will keep our area code while we have to change--some of us will be doing our best to fight it. Perhaps if the phone company were willing to pay for all the new stationery, directories, and listings that people are stuck paying for, and perhaps give us free calls to call everyone we know who has our pre-change number, it might be more palatable.]
Area-code changes are a fact of life. Some places in the country have gone through two changes within a relatively short period of time. These changes haven't caused any chaos, and there's no point in worrying.
Manhattan does have a majority of the city's residents, if you count their place of work rather than their place of residence. Throw in jobs in the other boroughs supported by the spending of Manhattan businesses and commuters, and taxes collected in Manhattan, and you could say that it accounts for most of the city. In fact, it accounts for most of the Metro Area and, through State taxes, a good chunk of Upstate NY as well.
Outer borough politicians don't understand the importance of Manhattan to their constiuents, and of the subway that takes them there. That's why no one sqwalks about the Manhattan Bridge.
(re: military installation) To thwart terrorists, Guiliani is moving City Hall to Governor's Island, where it will be inaccessible to all, and therefore safe. City Hall will open as a museum annex of the Museum of the City of New York, and the Transit Mussum annex beneath it will finally see the light of d - er, the vault light of day :)
--Mark
A ferry such as the one the Coast Guard operated will be inadequate for large amounts of people to get to whatever they put there.
The Staten Island Ferry has 4 large boats operational at all times. All four are used during rush hours. Only one or two are used at other times.
The Governor's Island round trip from South Ferry is 15 minutes. The two Barberi class boats hold 6,500 passengers. That's 26,000 each way per hour.The three Kennedy class boats hold 3500 passengers and 45 cars.They can also forget about the cars and add another 2500 passengers.
If you are worried about rush hours, then use one of the two Austen class boats which holds 1500 passenger.
Stop dreaming about a subway stop.
Thnx for the update. But does that mean the city(?) would order these type of boats or just borrow the idle boats from SI service when applicable? By the way, I assume the Austen & Barberi vessels are the
two different size "newer" boats that came in the 1980's.
Joe C
I do not profess to speak for the city. However, the existing boats are available and new boats cost a ton. The obvious choice would be to use a single extra boat for the Governor's Island run.
There are 3 classes of boats. The Kennedy class has 3 boats. The hold 3500 passengers and 45 automobiles. They were delivered around 1965 and are ready for replacement. The Barberi class has 2 boats. These are also called super ferries. They hold 6500 passengers and no cars. They were delivered around 1981. The Austen class has 2 boats. They hold 1500 passengers and no cars. They were delivered around 1985 and are used during off-peak. They have significantly less operating cost. The Austen class has only 2 decks whereas the others have 3.
I can't see a single boat plying the corridor between both islands. Especially if the city puts some high-volume attraction out on Gov Island. One boat, 15 minute headways at best? Not in this town.
A new overhead tram? Perhaps. They don't cost all that much, perhaps in the long run cheaper than one or two new boats & fuel. And the cost of reconfiguring the docks.
Joe C
The minimum interval for the SI ferry was 12 minutes in the pre-VNB days - using Merrill and Murray Class Boats - roughly equivalent to today's Kennedy Class and Austen Class in capacity. The off-peak interval was 20 minutes. I already commented on the capacity in another post.
The docks are already in place on the NY side. You have the 1906 SI Ferry terminal that the GC used. You also have the present 1950 SI Ferry terminal at Whitehall. That gives you 5 slips total and 4 slips always operational. You will have to build a new 2 slip terminal on Governor's Island, if you want to be able to load and unload on 2 levels simultaneously.
As I said in a previous post, the 1906 ferr terminal is in no shape for mass use. The upper level apron has not been used for decades and needs a total rebuild. A few years ago when a SI Ferry (Kennedy Class) was diverted there they used the lower apron only (I was on the boat).
The coast guard ran two ferry's (owned three) on a 12 - 15 minute headway rushhours all other times it was one boat.f Remember with a two boat operation to Governor's Island one of the boats has to sideslip or move to the side to alow each other to pass. The coast guard always had the Island bound ferry move out of the way.
There also could be additonal access on Buttermilk Channel, there is a marina there now on Governor's Island for non tradional ferrys.
I think a Tram, ala the RI Tram, would be best. You could even start from 'up high' at the Battery Maritime Building. You would hopefully need only one tower. Hey, you could even recycle the RI tram, which is now redundant, and should have been taken down when the tunnel opened.
-Hank
A tram trip takes about the same amount of time as a ferry boat. However, a tram car - such as the RI - can hold only about 100 people. There are any significantly bigger models available. This works out to less than 2% the capacity of a single ferry boat.
The posters objecting to using ferries on the basis of insufficient capacity, cannot propose an aerial tram as a reasonable alternative.
Don't get me worng!! I'm no way against ferries. The more the merrier.
Would prefer a vessel like the SI boats, or the ones operated by Wash. State. Those little Port Imperial boats are too cutesy for my. Nice, but...
What I DO object to, and it is a done deal, is the removal of the C.G.
There is nothing like good defense. But that's subject for another board, perhaps.
My suggestion about a tram was only because I didn't know what the city had in mind for the island. Obviously a high volume attraction could not be handled effectively with dinky trams. I'm still pissed over the Newark Monorail fiasco. Didn't the NJ official think people WITH LUGGAGE would be riding these? The terminals, as you know, were originally designed for heavy rapid transit; the building are set up that way. Perhaps for PATH (or Hudson Tubes back then).
Anyway, I DO like ferries. Honest I do.
Joe C
The Coast Guard didn't leave NY, they moved to occupy a portion of the abandoned NAVSTANY on Staten Island.
-Hank
[re capability of ferries to serve a developed Governor's Island]
Physical capacity isn't the only issue. Part of the reason why the Coast Guard vacated Governor's Island was the high cost of maintaining ferry service. If the island is fully developed for commercial and residential uses, even more service will be needed. Who's going to pay?
If the island is fully developed for commercial and residential uses, even more service will be needed.
I really think this is a non-issue. Please recheck the capacity figures. A single Barberi class boat will provide a capacity equal to that of the load on the all the downtown Lexington Ave Expresses curently leaving Grand Central during rush hours.
The last time I checked (about 5 years ago) it cost about $24,000 to charter a Barberi class boat for the day (8 hours). (I believe that an Austen class boat was around $20,000.) This figure included all costs, including depreciation, incremental maintenance and profit. I understand that the marginal cost (labor and fuel) is significantly less. I think that this figure should be able to get you started with any proforma for assessing costs.
The feds' $1 sale of Governors' to NYC is by no means a done deal. The Republicans may want to expedite it while Rudy is running, but if Hillary gets in while the Republicans maintain a majority, Governors Island will probably remain undeveloped...in any case, the time to do it is now, while conditions are best for a sale. It'll take 5-10 years for construction most likely.
Only one Austen boat is in service the other is a hanger queen (used for parts). Staten Island Ferry is pressed to run a four boat schedule at most times. They fall back to 3 many times especially when one boat is in dry dock for mandated USCG inspections.
The slip on Governor's Island will only take a Kennedy Class or smaller and remember there is no upper level apron at the Island. Also the upper level apron on the Manhattan side hasn't been used for years at Governors Island ferry terminal. The Coast Guard Ferry's only had lower level access.
Yes there will never be a subway stop in the near or even far future but additonal boats would be needed if Govenor's Island is reopened.
There are currently 7 boats in the fleet. Barberi and Newhouse (Barberi Class), Kennedy, Legion and Lehman (Kennedy Class) and Austen and Noble (Austen Class). One boat is always undergoing maintenance and inspection. They require 4 large and 1 small boat for a normal schedule.
There is rarely any reason for having two active small boats. Accordingly, one is mothballed to save money. A mothballed boat can be returned to service within 1 or 2 days. They rotate the mothballed boat at regular intervals. (They would use 2 small boats during off-peak daytime hours, if there were not political opposition to eliminating automobile tranport.) They do not, according to legend, require 2 small boats to keep 1 running.
Historically, ferry operations had been insulated from politics. Mayors and Ferry Commissioners came and went. The professional operations people stayed and did their job in a competent, steady and unspectacular manner. There would be a single mishap every decade that resulted in a score of injuries and no loss of life.
Approximately three years ago, the present mayoral administration and SI Boro Pres decided that they needed to take a more direct interest in ferry operations. They brought in their own man to control what they felt were excessive maintenance expenditures. He had no prior maritime experience. This new man's managerial skills were shown by keeping a Sanitation Department maintenance garage within budget. He was able to give clear demonstration of the effects of these managerial techniques on ferry operations within a year.
It has taken over a year and probably some more, with plenty of overtime, to catch up on the maintenance functions that were missed and spare parts that were not ordered. Over one year was lost in specifying replacements for the Kennedy class boats which are now past their economic life. However, having to run 3 boat rush hour schedules will pass - either when they have brought all their boats up to snuff or when the Kennedy class replacements are delivered.
This will occur well within the next five years and way before there is any recreational facility available on Governor's Island.
The feeling was that (in 1974) Penn Central burned the Pok Bridge to force all east/west traffic through Selkirk and put the Erie Lackawanna out of business. Hence the Ulster County side tracks were torn up. As I understand it the bridge is in far better shape than many folks think. The New Haven did some pier work to strengthen the foundation. Its currently part of a hike/bike trail scheme, periodically open.
Regarding Govs Island, when I worked at the City Planning Dept in NYC there was some talk about an aerial tramway. But that seems silly. I thought an express bus turnout stop in the Battery Tunnel might work. Apparrently bridging the Buttermilk Channel would require quite a hefty bridge (draw span) to allow continued navigation, so a bridge to Brooklyn might be out of the question. Maybe Moses had the right idea with a Brooklyn-Battery Bridge?
Regarding Govs Island, when I worked at the City Planning Dept in NYC there was some talk about an aerial tramway. But that
seems silly. I thought an express bus turnout stop in the Battery Tunnel might work.
How many people were you trying to get on and off the island?
I dont know if there was ever a real figure established. The focus then was to do something quick cheap and dirty, so to speak. The feeling then was that the island might have become a casino or theme park of some sort, or just open space. City Planning looked at a number of alternatives, just to see what was feasible, but not much more.
I also dont know if the idea ever went beyond the conceptual stage, though probably not. I dont think a conventional 2-car 'gondola" type system would work (headway would be too long and capacity would be too low) but a multiple cable/multiple car system might. I believe Titan PRT systems has such designs in the conceptual stage.
Perhaps a good test case for such technology? Or another example of "you get what you pay for"? Time will tell!Time was when developers pumped money into mass transit (or were mass transit providers themselves). Today they expect government to pick up the tab.
01/07/2000
I saw an article in today's (LI) Newsday stating that the NY State Thruway Authority was "considering" a 1 billion dollar replace of the Tappan Zee Bridge which has seen service since 1956. They state that repairing and maintaining the span thru 2012 would cost 1.2 billion dollars, hence the cheaper alternative of replacement.
NOW THIS IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING....plans would call for bus lanes and RAIL access. Hmmmm! OKAY!, what are your thoughts on this and what rail service could utilize a NEW Tappan Zee Bridge? Remember, it's not written in stone, They're "considering"
Bill Newkirk
Well, now that's interesting!
I suppose the future of trans-Hudson transit in the Tappan Zee area depends on your opinion of Metro North and NJT. M-N would certainly like to get its Pascack and Pt Jervis trains wholly in NY state. But is a Hudson Line/Rail Bridge link feasible in this day and age? Possibly, if a new bridge is feasible. Also recall the fantasy of a Middletown-Stamford cross county rail line.
Ive got to think:
Its probably cheaper to build a new highway-only bridge, and retain the existing bridge for rail/bus and bike/ped. Can the existing TZ take the weight of a train? A loaded truck is about 80,000 lbs; an F40 is about 280,000. But the bridge is made to withstand multiple trucks, while trains could cross one at a time. So it probably could. Given relatively infrequent use, a transit-only TZ could last a lot longer than in its current highway configuration, where it receives quite a pounding.
Imagine also if 2 highway lanes were retained on the old bridge for autos only (lightweight), and reversed in the peaks. The new bridge could be built smaller (by about a lane in each direction) and cheaper while some toll revenue would filter in to maintain the old bridge. Call it "congestion pricing"?
Trans husdon conventional commuter rail is probably not the beat way to go, at least as a new start. I think some medium-duty system (DMU or glorified light rail) is probably better. There's a better chance of jamming this type of system east along the 287 corridor, since its perceived as less obtrusive. Its probably still a good idea to maintain some Hoboken service for lower Manhattan folks who use the boats or PATH.
My thought here is that the TZ is still basically structually sound, though perhaps beyond its economic lifespan, and a mini-rehab would leave it OK for some rail and light highway traffic. Also that a train could make it up the grades of the existing span......Might be a challenge here!
Back at DCP, I'd always argued that a rail freight bridge up there was a lot cheaper and almost as good as the tunnel that will never be. You run two tracks across from the Port Jervis line, and ramp them down to the Hudson line (probably via a tunnel), you not only get a direct rail ride for Rockland and Orange commuters but also a 3rd freight railroad into Oak Point via the southern tier -- and a shorter turn around for freight from the south. Even if a one track freight tunnel is built, the bridge would be good. The tunnel could take trains in, the bridge could take trains out.
Meanwhile, I think expanding the bridge capacity and the capacity of the roads is a good idea. It would take more trucks out of the city, and across I287, from New Jersey to New England. In fact, it makes as much sense as twinnng the Goethals and expanding the Staten Island expressway. And would attract opposition for the same reasons.
Who has freight trackage rights over the Hudson Line-CSX or NS? If its NS, the MTA MIGHT not not have too hard of a time convincing them to help finance the deal also. Speaking of which, the rumors are starting to run around here (again) that NS wants to double track the Southern Tier line..... when MN opened the new Middletown station, they made the platform extra-extra wide--wide enough that it could be shaved back in case they double track......and they are going to be redoing all the PJ Line stations over the next 2 or 3 years...hmmmmm
CSX has the Hudson Line. It wanted East Hudson Access all to itself, but NYC and State fought to get trackage rights for the Delaware and Hudson, a (Canadian Pacific) subsidiary. Norfolk southern has the southern tier, but no access east of the Hudson.
Lets say a two track rail line is put in the middle of the new bridge. The State could try to use eminent domain to seize the Hudson Line S of Croton, and open it up to all three RRs. Then you'd have three services to the Bronx and Long Island.
You fail to recognize some basic facts of dynamic loading characteristics of rail vehicles- the axles and wheels on a rail vehicle are fewer and closer together, and the weight is much greater. This yields a much greater concentrated dynamic load. A tractor trailer has 18 or more wheels spread over a 60 foot or greater length, further, the "gage" of a semi is almost 8 feet.
The rule of thumb, is a rail bridge must be atleast 4-6 times stronger than any highway bridge.
The Tappan Zee would have to be heavily reinforced to take the live load of a modern freight train and locomotive.
I was living in Poughkeepsie at the time the bridge burned; indeed, I drove under the bridge northbound on Route 9 just before the police car behind me turned sideways to block the road and prevent other traffic from proceeding due to the fire above. I don't believe the rumors about it being deliberately set; rather, it was most likely a hotbox (the last train that crossed the bridge before the fire stopped with a burned axle bearing less than five miles down the line). It was unfortunate that the fire suppression system on the bridge had been allowed to deteriorate to the point where it didn't work. At the time the bridge went out of service there were plans to increase traffic on that line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting information about the Pok Br - Thanks. Runs contrary to popular opinion (but no one ever said porular opinion was necessarily correct!)
There's an interesting web site out there with more history, and links to additional information, here. I don't know the individual who set up the site but it's a good reference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse...got a 404 on that page...can ya put out the URL?
I just checked it and got a 404 also - I've had it bookmarked for a long time and when I checked it just now that's what I used - looks like it's moved or something. I'll follow up and let you know what I find out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tonight at 12;36 am I boarded a s.b.4@125th st no sooner had i been seated a s.b. 6 entered on the other platform as soon as it`d doors opened and passengers wanting to connect headed for our train the doors abruptly closed.they then opened a few inches presumably to release someones stuck hand and shut,several left on the platform were
visably angry at being stuck for what will at this hour be a long wait.
Look,I know that during peak time trains are on a tight schedule and with frequent service missing a train at those times is no big deal.
I can see no good reason for not keeping the doors open another 10to15 seconds at this time of the night.
As a life long subay and bus rider,i`ve seen this sort of thing several times in the past and I can`t help think it contributes to the public`s skeptical view of public transit.
This is a growing problem recenly, and theres another thread in here discussing it.
This is a growing problem recenly, and theres another thread in here discussing it.
Its been going on for decades. I used to run into that problem all the time in the seventies. On a weekend, I'd have to wait up to 20 minutes for a GG at Woodhaven Blvd. When my local would get to Roosevelt Ave., the E or F (mostly the F) that was in the station would close its doors before my GG was fully in the station. The doors on the GG would open just as the E or F would be leaving. At that point, I had a choice - wait for the next express (I usually needed an F) or go upstairs for the 7. If I just missed an F, I'd usually go for the 7. Sometimes that too would just be leaving by the time I'd get up to the 7 platform. Can't win for losing!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What would have been the point? Both trains run local at that hour. If they delayed the 4, the 6 would have left ahead of it, thus those same passengers would now curse the TA for making them late.
-Hank
On that ground, the 6 should have left ahead of the 4 anyway, as not , so Brooklyn bound passengers would not be stranded on a platform for 20 minutes.
I hope that the TA does not dispatch trains with this intent; i.e. I hope for the TAs sake that either of the trains were late or early. It seems that at that hour, dispatchers have enough leeway to think about timed transfers.
Also, I have heard that T/Os in NYC are instructed not to make connections during peak, but do not know if this is true.
As a conductor I would like to apologze to you for my colleague's unprofessional behavior. I try very hard to make connections and more so at night like what happened to you.
Also as a non driver I ride the system at all hours of the night myself. I see many other conductors do exactly as you decribed to me.
There's really no excuse for it, and the only way to describe why is sheer impatience. Since there is so much time in the time table it won't make you late.
The only time I'll do it is at the rush hour or if I know for sure there is an appropriate train behind me. But hey, to alot of people on this job it's just that. A job. We all can't be "Transit Professionals"
I can understand rush hour, but late night on 20 minute headways PLEASE hold those doors a few more seconds. Happens to me with the D/F along 6th Ave. I hate it when it is done on 3 consecutive stations 47/50th to 34th St, can make you screaming mad.
Mr R-46;Thank`s for your thoughtful commentts,It`s my hope that as this board becomes more widely read among transit workers it will cause them to consider their actions and their effect on public opinion of what is in fact the finest and safest mass transit system in the world.
I see your point and yes, the 4 was local at that time as every night,perhaps the connecting passengers were headed for Brooklyn.At any rate no pa announcement was made on our train `till we were underway.
I have seen this far too many times also and I AGREE it is behavior such as this, on the part of A MINORITY of conductors, that contributes to the publics skeptical view of mass transit. Conductors who behave like this are in the wrong line of work and perhaps if people reported this type of behavior to the TA whenever it happens it just might stop
Peace,
Andee
I haven't seen this happen in a long time. It's understandable in certain situations like peak hour, train running late or another train waiting to enter the station.
I think overall the C/R's do a good job of allowing passengers to make connections. However, during my college years I used to work evenings in Rego Park and for me to travel to the Bronx from work I'd take a G train to Roosevelt and change for an (E or F) express. Very often an express would pass us at Elmhurst Ave. We (the G train) would routinely arrive at Roosevelt Ave just in time to see the doors of the express close. I never understood why the express didn't wait for the local not to mention it was quite frustrating, especially since it was around 10:00 PM.
Wayne
I haven't seen this happen in a long time. It's understandable in certain situations like peak hour, train running late or another train waiting to enter the station.
I think overall the C/R's do a good job of allowing passengers to make connections. However, during my college years I used to work evenings in Rego Park and for me to travel to the Bronx from work I'd take a G train to Roosevelt and change for an (E or F) express. Very often an express would pass us at Elmhurst Ave. We (the G train) would routinely arrive at Roosevelt Ave just in time to see the doors of the express close. I never understood why the express didn't wait for the local not to mention it was quite frustrating, especially since it was around 10:00 PM.
Wayne
I lived near the Woodhaven Blvd. station for 13 years. The same has happened to me plenty of times - days, nights and weekends. My GG would get to Roosevelt and the doors would close on the F, just as the GG was entering the station. It seemed to be regular procedure. Like I said in a previous post, if the express was an F, which is what I needed, I'd go for the 7 at Roosevelt instead of waiting for another F. Fortunately, when I worked at WTC, I had a couple of options open. If the EE came in first, I'd take it all the way to Cortlandt St. If the GG came first, I'd get an E at Roosevelt.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Has anyone heard anything on the derailment at Croton Harmon North this morning??
The CSX/NS Bronx-Bound Which runs down the hudson line @2am nightly (usually late) had a derailment. The first box car slipped off. It looked like the train was about 60-70 cars long. It was being pulled by 3 conrail GE's specially modified to run on the hudson line. MNCRR was giving them a hand to get it back on the tracks. They had brought 3 more Conrail GE's down, but I thought conrail had only modified 3 total to run on that line. Any other ones would tear up the 3rd rail.
This was at about 7am. If anyone has heard anything, or seen anything, please post it.
Thanks
Fred
On the second weekend in February, TransiTALK is planning a photography field trip, detail are being ironed our as we speak.
This is your opportunity to meet the faces behind the page.
If interested, e-mail us at transitalk@yahoo.com or MTABoy2000@cs.com and you will be given deeper details.
Trevor Logan
Founder & Co-Webmaster
TransiTALK Platinum 2000
Gentlepeople .....
If you have already read the "Capsule History of the IND" on this site, GO BACK AND READ IT AGAIN! It isn't "capsule" anymore.
If you have not seen this before, then you're in for a real treat.
The second version of the Indepdent's History, called The History of the Independent Subway(1921 to 1940) And the IND Division (1940 to the Present) is now available for your reading pleasure.
What's new since the initial posting in August 1999:
- The document spans the life of the IND from 1921 to the present.
- New information on a proposed alternative to the Board of Transportation's initial route plan from a Major Philip Mathews
- A brief description of the Ashland Place Connection (while not a project of the Independent, Hylan's pontificating against the traction interests was the primary reason that it never got built)
- The section describing the 1929 IND "Second System" plan has been completely revised and, hopefully, described much more clearly
- Additional details on the going-on around the Independent's opening day
- Additional details of the Unification ceremonies in 1940
- A summary of the Board of Transportations 1939/1940 plans for the system
- A new section outlining the history of the IND Rockaway Line
- Additional details on the Chrystie Street Connection project and a short list of lines discontinued and new lines created (thanks to Larry RedbirdR33)
- A new section covering the IND Division from 1975 to 1999
- Two new sections listing a chronology of events of the Independent before Unification and the IND Division afterwards
Enjoy! Comments / corrections welcomed.
--Mark
That is an outstanding, effort, Mark. It adds enormously to the readily available history of the IND.
Congratulations!
Mark,
I wanted to print this out. In print preview, however, it shows all the text on the left hand side, in a long column. Total pages was 97!!
Is there an easier way to kprint this?
Joe C
If you're using netscape, go into Edit->Preferences->Advanced and make sure "Enable Style Sheets" is OFF. I'm not sure how to do this in Internet Explorer but I'm sure it's possible. The style sheet will affect the printing but make it look nicer on the screen.
-Dave
Thanks for the tip. Everything prints fine on I-exp. but when I use netscape on another computer I had the same problem
Joe
Eye had that same problem for the first time (I just got a PC upgrade, 486/33 to 486/66, incl. more current NetScape version). Your tip did the trick, thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
Eye had that same problem for the first time (I just got a PC upgrade, 486/33 to 486/66, incl. more current NetScape version). Your tip did the trick, thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
My first computer 4 years ago was a 486SX 66 MHz machine. Its obsolete. I couldn't use it anymore. Its slow and won't take a hard drive larger than 2 GB. I even feel like I need to replace this AMD K-6-2 350 MHz machine. Things are pretty bad when 128 MB RAM and a 10 GB hard drive isn't enough! BTW, I have an old 486 25 MHz laptop with 4 MB RAM that I can't even use for the Internet because it can't handle Netscape or IE, and today's graphics would take too long to load anyway. It runs Win 3.1 and is good for nothing except word processing and solitaire. I eventually want to use it to run Packet software for my Ham Radio.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wanted to print this out. In print preview, however, it shows all the text on the left hand side, in a long column. Total pages was 97!!
Is there an easier way to kprint this?
If you have Microsoft Word 97 or 2000, try this:
Go to the IND History web page. Hit control A, then hit control C. Then, open a blank Word file. Hit control V. When it copies and pastes to Word, save the file on your hard drive as IND History.doc, or something like that. In Word, you will wind up with 49 printable pages; still alot, but half of what you would have from the web. I am not going to waste my paper on it. I'll just read it straight from the Word file on my computer monitor.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I am not going to waste my paper on it.
Awww, but it's worth it. :)
In Word, you can specify that all you want are the odd pages, then you can put the paper back in upside down and specify that you want the even pages. It comes out with nicely double-sided.
--Mark
In Word, you can specify that all you want are the odd pages, then you can put the paper back in upside down and specify that you want the even pages. It comes out with nicely double-sided.
--Mark
I like that idea.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wonder if it's possible to make newspaper style booklets. Any of you have tips? Like with 11 x 17 paper?
It's terrific that we have a lot of dedicated people like you, Paul M and others posting all this stuff free of charge. I have learned a great deal about NYC trains over the past 150 years, and only because I stumbled on nycsubway.org a few months ago...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have learned a great deal about NYC trains over the past 150 years
WOW! You're aging really well! ;-)
>>>WOW! You're aging really well! ;-) <<<
I compliment you and what do I get?
Hijinks, that's what.
>>>WOW! You're aging really well! ;-) <<<
I compliment you and what do I get?
Hijinks, that's what.
Yeah, I byte the hand that feeds me.
(( Ouch! That was even worse ))
No respect, man ... no respect .... :)
--Mark
Rim shot!!!
Super job! One question concerning the Second System: there is no mention of the Lafayette Ave. extension which would have originated at Bedford-Nostrand Ave. on the G and tied into the Myrtle-Central Ave. line.
DAMN!!! YOU BEAT ME TO IT!
Free of charge???? Hey, where's my tip! ;-)
Another G-R-E-A-T job. This writer thanks you very much for the history lesson !
Mr t__:^)
I have created a webring for my site. To join the TrAnSiTiNfO webring, click the link below.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO's Webring
TrAnSiTiNfO's Homepage
AGAIN. I have added a webring to my site!!! 3 ppl have already joined in one day. If you would like to become apart of this webring, 1)you must have a webpage 2) it must be about transit.
If you're interested click Here.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO's homepage
I was on my weay home last night at about 8:30pm, and was waiting for an R at 36th St. On the express track, an "S" train of R62's(?)came through, with Broadway-local markings. However, on the computer-type-esque side signs, it read "W--to City Hall". Anyone ever seen this?
Definately NOT an R62, since they don't have digital signs. Probably an R46 set going in for a layup.
-Hank
I guess you're right, as it was headed for the West End to Coney Island.
Why do the lights in the R36 cars flicker in the tunnels? And if the R62s were to come would that problem be gone.
Also I found a way to use bigger cars on the 7. Take unneeded R40 Slants and rebuild them to IRT standards. I would use either MK or the locomotive shops in Altoona Pa. for this
Why do the lights in the R36 cars flicker in the tunnels? And if the R62s were to come would that problem be gone.
Also I found a way to use bigger cars on the 7. Take unneeded R40 Slants and rebuild them to IRT standards. I would use either MK or the locomotive shops in Altoona Pa. for this
In the past, all cars had lights that flickered. The lights go out when the cars go over a third rail gap. This usually occurs when going over a switch. The R-44's started using a back-up battery to keep the lights on while going over third rail gaps. All cars since have been built with this battery. Cars built prior to the R-44's received this modification during General Overhaul, except the Redbirds. I, myself am not sure if all the Redbirds lack this back-up battery, or if its only the WF R-33/36's, as I left the City close to 20 years ago. This battery holds enough voltage (I think its 35 or 38 Volts) to keep the car's lights on while the car's shoe is not making contact with the third rail. The A/C still momentarily quits, but the lights stay on. Even on the R-36's, there is still a small dim light connected to a battery that provides some auxiliary light when the main lights go dark. In answer to your question regarding the R-62's, yes it would solve the problem, as the R-62's are equipped with the back-up battery. As for modifying the R-40's to make them 1' narrower, I don't think its practical or feasible. Even if it was possible, I don't think 60' cars, even if they were 9' wide could run in the Steinway Tunnel, for the same reason that 75' cars are unable to negotiate a few turns on the B-Division.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Fluorescent lighting staying on over third rail gaps actually started with the R-42, not the R-44.
David
You lose the AC Fans though.
Most of the Redbirds that I've taken on the 2 and 5 don't have lights flickering. I think that's only in the Flushing Redbirds.
Today I was on a Flushing Redbird and the glass on the front window was a little loose and very few of the exterior signs worked.
I like the Redbirds but the Flushing ones are in pretty poor condition, much worse than the other IRT lines.
Yeah I remember the late eighties and Early Nineties, they were the top maintained cars in the entire fleet. I guess they are preparing for the R-62s, so they are cutting down on the extensive grooming of the 36s.
The flourescents in the R-36 are DC tubes operated from the 600 volt source. These were used in all cars at one time but as cars have been rebuilt AC flourescents operated from battery powered inverters have been substituted, also as orig equip from the R-42 onward. The battery powered lights monitor the third rail power and some switch themselves off after a lengthy loss of power leaving only a few on for safety sake. The Flushing cars retained the original lights to use up the stock of DC tubes on hand.
The flourescents in the R-36 are DC tubes operated from the 600 volt source. These were used in all cars at one time but as cars have been rebuilt AC flourescents operated from battery powered inverters have been substituted, also as orig equip from the R-42 onward. The battery powered lights monitor the third rail power and some switch themselves off after a lengthy loss of power leaving only a few on for safety sake. The Flushing cars retained the original lights to use up the stock of DC tubes on hand.
That's wierd - lights running off 600 VDC. Man, I'd hate to be the one in charge of changing a dead lightbulb on those cars! That seems more dangerous than operating a Hi-V. Then again, the higher the voltage, the lower the current, and it is actually current that kills, not voltage. The third rail? Now, that's another story. High voltage, high current. Zap!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
WILL THE F TRAIN EVER RUN EXPRESS AGAIN BETWEEN 179 ST AND 71 AND CONTINENTAL AVES IN QUEENS? WHERE WILL THE NEW LINE FROM 21 ST IN LIC TERMINATE IN QUEENS ?
It sometimes does now. About 7:15A.M. on some mornings they run an unannunced special express from 179th all the way to Queens Plaza. I say about 7:15, because I've gotton on it at Union Tpke between 7:25 and 7:30. I don't know if they do this every day, but I have seen it about 5 times in the last month.
About the new line, this has been going on here for month. It will feed into the Queens Blvd line between 36th St. and Queens Plaza. The connection is about complete and it may be opened within a year, possibly a little longer.
Don't expect to see service through the 63rd. St. connector for at least 2 years, even if construction ends before that. There aren't enough subway cars in the fleet to support the new service, so it might have to wait until the R143's start showing up.
I'm not holding by breath. LOL
I think that through service could begin even without New Cars. The Q is already running as far as Queensbridge, and the G is already running on the Queens line as far as Queens Plaza. Cut off the G, and connect the two, and voila you have through service.
It's not that simple, since there are more Q trains than G trains, and Q trains are longer. But the TA could free up cars in the short run by cutting the number of R trains on the Queens line slightly. It could also put a little pressure on Steve to have fewer trains in the shop during rush hours.
So the gain in through service could not be what it would be with more cars, but you might go from 9-10 Rs and no Gs. to 6-7 Rs and 9 Qs.
A usually reliable source (TA operations person) told me at a New York Division/ERA meeting a few months ago that while regular service won't begin on the 63rd Street connector until the new cars are delivered, reroutes will likely use it as necessary during General Orders and service disruptions, once construction is complete.
Why would you want to cut back on R service. Those trains are packed between Queens Plaza and Lexington Ave. I realize the Q only stops 3 blocks away at Lex., but the R has the transfer to the 4,6 & 6.
"Why would you want to cut back on R service. Those trains are packed between Queens Plaza and Lexington Ave. I realize the Q only stops 3 blocks away at Lex., but the R has the transfer to the 4,6 & 6."
Packed?????? No where as crowded as the N line which runs fewer trains during rush hours. Who knows how these "subway planners" got there jobs.
N Broadway Express
I've seen the N line, and it is crowded. But stop exaggerating. It's nowhere near the crowding on the E and F, the Brighton Line, or the East Side IRT.
Problem is that the Manhattan Bridge is scheduled to close the northern side and open the southern side within the next 2 years. The planned reroutes will require more cars than they have available today. The fleet has been downsized quite a bit since the last time this service plan was implemented (86-88), so new services might not be able to run until all the R143's are here.
Yet another reminder of why scrapping the R30 was foolish.
Yet another reminder of why scrapping the R30 was foolish.
Nobody in the TA has the foresight to see that extra cars would be needed, not too far down the road. They're stupid! That's an understatement. They knew what they were building. They didn't just start building it either. Its been going on for decades.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They have the extra cars, if they would just transfer over the extra Redbirds to the B division as the R-142s arrive, put platform extenders on them (the way they did on the Low Vs on the Culber shuttle and on the Q cars), and use them as rush hour put-ins on the Eastern Division. Then transfer over the usual extra rush hour cars from there to suppliment Queens Blvd. service, and you would have enough trains to start 63rd St. service.
Redbirds on the B division would look odd, and it would require a few more cases of bondo to be bought, but it would be a quick solution to the overcrowding problem without having to wait for the R-143 order to completely arrive.
(Put platform extenders on the eastern division).
Unless you mean the L, that would not be easy. You'd have to cut off through service on the Broad Street line, and terminate the M down there as well. L riders could be expected to complain, especially since they were promised the new trains. The G is another possibility, if you terminate them at Hoyt-Schmerhorn then run them non-stop to a turnaround at 4th Avenue. I doubt G riders would agree.
My thought (before the Franklin Avenue shuttle was built with little capacity for full trains) was to save a few trains by using the Redbirds as a Brighton local to Fulton Street, running all Brigton through trains express from Sheepshead Bay. Brigton riders didn't like it.
Returning to the Broadway Brooklyn Line, you'd have to replace the M on the West End with more B trains, and run them through the Montigue tunnel, since there is no room on half the bridge. But they'd have to run north for some way before they could turn around. That would eat up some of the savings.
I meant put the platform extenders on the cars themselves, to cut the gap between the Redbirds and the platforms. You could still run R-40/40M/42s on the J/L/M/Z but during rush hours instead of adding extra B division cars, you would put in the cars moved over from the A division.
During non-rush, only B division cars would be in use while those currently reserved for rush hour service on the J/L/M/Z would be moved over to serve as the needed cars for the 63rd St. connection.
I'm sure some Eastern Division riders would complain about getting IRT hand-me-downs, but if the R-143 delievery schedule is correct, this would only be an 18 month to two-year stopgap measure, and would allow the MTA to open up the new Queens connector for full-time service right away, instead of letting it go underused until 2002 or 2003.
Once the 143s were in place, the Redbirds could go off to that big scrapper in the sky. But it seems stupid to junk the trains within the next year when they could still serve a useful purpose in relieving the overcrowding on the system.
If redbirds ever show up on the J line, I'll sing a happy tune.
I remember seeing R30 Redbirds on the J years ago........
3TM
Yes, and I miss them. The bland, antiseptic R42's make for a boring ride.
Ah, you put the extenders on the trains, not the platforms, so both types of cars could run. I didn't think of that. But wouldn't there be a liability issue: passengers falling into the gap between the train and platform next to the doors? Sounds like a lawyer's dream, and a TA nightmare.
I must admit, however, that aside from the liability issue I like your idea. Yeah the Redbirds are rusting, but we wouldn't need all of them, and when one wore out we'd just throw it away. On that basis, the Redbirds could be run anywhere -- even as the new Queens Blvd local, from 71st Continental to Church, to avoid having riders elsewhere feel ripped off. You could put your best conductors on the line and, as you say, only use them during rush hours.
Would it be possible to weld a steel plate along the entire length of the car?
They can put the extenders along the entire car length.
I don't think IND rush hour riders would appreciate the narrow IRT style trains. That's what I like about BMT/IND, the trains don't get quite as packed and stuffy as IRT trains, you can fit more people in them.
Hmmm, maybe if the entire Canarsie line was converted to IRT dimensions.....
Nah, buying new cars woould cost fewer $$$. But I'll listen to any plan that would mean that the TA would retain the redbirds for any longer than they are scheduled for.
Like I said in the earlier post, this would only be an 18 month to two year stopgap measure, until the R-143s arrive and get the B division up to their needed number of cars. Saving the Redbirds for rush hour service would allow the MTA to move the current rush hour R-40s/40Ms/42s to be used on the 63rd St. connection when it's ready, instead of letting it go underused for a year or two while Queens Blvd. riders into Manhattan continue to be packed in like sardines.
Better to have slightly narrower cars on the BMT/IND during rush hour for a while than no cars at all. And we're not talking about doing anything here that the TA didn't do first back in the late 1950s on the BMT Southern Division.
I think you have something here. Better more cars than no cars at all.
[Like I said in the earlier post, this would only be an 18 month to two year stopgap measure, until the R-143s arrive and get the B division up to their needed number of cars. Saving the Redbirds for rush hour service would allow the MTA to move the current rush hour R-40s/40Ms/42s to be used on the 63rd St. connection when it's ready, instead of letting it go underused for a year or two while Queens Blvd. riders into Manhattan continue to be packed in like sardines.
Better to have slightly narrower cars on the BMT/IND during rush hour for a while than no cars at all. And we're not talking about doing anything here that the TA didn't do first back in the late 1950s on the BMT Southern Division.]
Clever!
I don't think that would be a problem. People don't try to get on trains where there are no doors.
Would it be possible to weld a steel plate along the entire length of the car?
That's exactly what they did with Lo-V's 40 years ago to adapt them for BMT use.
NYC TRANSIT
It seems that J Lee has a good idea here. All it would take is a piece of angle iron bolted on and painted black. Perhaps someone should send a letter to the MTA (you can't E-mail it).
I've looked into the technical aspects of running IRT Redbirds in BMT service. From a loading standpoint, you'd lose approximately 120 person-positions per train: 10 Redbirds hold 1,800 people, while 8 R-42 or R-42 cars hold 1,920 people (if memory serves, the IRT loading guideline is 180 people/car, while the BMT 60-footer loading guideline is 240 people/car). However, the M line isn't overcrowded at either end of the line (please don't yell at me on this; I'm going by numbers, not perception), so the M would be OK from that perspective.
Platform lengths don't seem to be much of a problem, either: 10 IRT Redbirds come to 513' and change, while 8 R-40/R-42 cars come to 484 feet. All Eastern Division platforms exceed 513', with the possible exception of Metropolitan Avenue: I have a 1982 document that lists the length as 506', but that may have been either the original (destroyed by fire) wood platform or its temporary wood replacement, before the current platform was installed.
The last problem I looked into was signal chaining. I was afraid that because 10 Redbirds are longer than 8 R-40/42s, a train of "Redbirds" might slop over onto a third signal block, thereby reducing capacity along the line. However, I've been assured that the insulated joints (IJs) are far enough apart throughout the Eastern Division that this wouldn't happen. Of course, the southern part of the M line is set up for 10-car 60-footers/8-car 75-footers, so this isn't a concern there. (Don't count CBTC on the Canarsie Line in this exercise; it's not there yet, and it depends on onboard equipment that the Redbirds wouldn't get to be effective.)
All that needs to be done to convert Redbirds for BMT use are to add extension plates and move the trip cocks from the right side to the left.
David
One thing I forgot:
There's an additional constraint: would the Redbirds be available in time to be of any use?
The R-142 and R-142A classes (for the IRT) are just starting to come in. In fact, only the pilot trains of each have come in. These trains will be extensively tested in the shops and on test tracks (such as on the Dyre Avenue Line) for six months (longer, if they have problems, which new equipment invariably does). Then they each have to pass a 30-day in-service test without failing EVEN ONCE. One failure, and the clock starts all over again. This puts us into mid-summer at the earliest.
Moreover, the plan is to increase service where possible by keeping 120 Redbirds. This means that the first 120 (or more, if spares aren't included in the 120) R-142 and R-142A cars won't replace anything. Redbirds wouldn't be available until at least 120 new cars are in and running. At a 30-car-per-month delivery rate from each contractor (sounds about right), that means that for the first two months (again, if everything goes right) of service by the new cars, Redbirds wouldn't be available. Now we're in late summer/early fall.
The M line needs 19 8-car BMT trains, which means it would need 19 10-car IRT trains, or 190 cars, plus spares (say, another 30 cars for a total of 220). That's about four months' worth of deliveries of the new cars. Now we're into Winter 2001. The 63rd Street Connector is supposed to open in Spring 2001. It would take some time to put the extenders on the Redbirds and change the trip cocks (though it could be done as Redbirds were released from IRT service). By that time, the R-143 (Canarsie Line) cars would be starting to arrive, we hope. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that the Redbirds would arrive in time to do much good.
David
Oh My God! You thought of everything. Wait you forgot the Manhattan Bridge deal.
That's right, with the Manhattan Bridge out, the TA will need more cars just to run the same service, with the B/D Concourse separate from the B/D Brigthon. Until the Manny B is open on both sides, the more cars the merrier.
It wouldn't hurt to run an extra train or two on other B division lines either.
I agree it all depends on the timing and the acceptance of the new R-142s before the opening of the 63rd St. tunnel.
My thinking was if what has been talked about in some other threads -- that some of the R-62s would be headed to the Flushing Line to replace the R-33WF/R-36WF cars, that those cars, which still have a very good MBDF, could then be sent down to Coney Island for retrofitting with extenders and be used for rush hour service on the Eastern Division.
Using the Flushing Redbirds would also allow the MTA the option of nine-car rush hour trains, which at 462 feet, would certainlu fall within the range of all platform lengths on the Eastern Division.
Of course, there's nothing this side of Joe Hoffman that would prevent some of the mainline R-26/R-28/R-29s, which figure to be the first `Birds to go -- to be sent to the Concourse or 207th St. yards to have their trip cocks converted and extenders put on, but it would limit the cars lengths to multiples of two.
Those SubTalkers inside the MTA would be a better judge than me both on how long any conversions would take, and on the current time frame for the R-142 to begin service, the 63rd St. tunnel to open and the R-143s to arrive. But I do think scrapping several hundred A division cars that still have at least 18 months worth of service in them (we're not talking R-16 GEs here) while the B division is several hundred cars short and way overcrowded during rush hour is not very good thinking.
If this is an eighteen month measure, using the R-33 single is BAD. That could mean up to 2 summers with those things. If neccessary, some double cars can be taken to create 10 car consists, if the last car doesn't fit, lock it away.
They DO have fans you know. Granted, not as good as the ceiling fans on the older equipment but fans nonetheless.
So? They don't have air conditioning.
As I said, with the possible exception of one station (Metropolitan Avenue on the M), station lengths are sufficient to handle 10-car IRT Redbird trains. Therefore, the R-33 single cars would not be needed. The key constraint here is timing. As I previously indicated, enough Redbirds to provide M service would not be available until around the time the R-143s are scheduled to start coming in. This is true no matter which Redbirds (R-26, 28, 29, 33, 33S, or 36) we're talking about, and no matter which line they're running on now.
With respect to the Manhattan Bridge (which someone said I forgot about in my calculations), the condition of the bridge is immaterial at this point. The bridge isn't planned to be open on both sides until 2003 at the earliest, by which time all 212 R-143s should be in and running. Since the R-143 is an addition to the BMT-IND fleet, and is not being purchased to replace any equipment, the Redbirds wouldn't be needed anywhere in the BMT-IND system. The R-143 will allow for the opening of the 63rd Street Connector as well as extension of C trains to 10 cars (yes, 10 cars). The cars currently assigned to L service will be moved around, and the R-143 fleet will take over L service in conjunction with installation of CBTC.
David
10 car trains on the C line are unnecessary. I don't think they'd waste cars for this.
On the 143s, are you assuming they'll come in on time as scheduled? Remember, we supposedly should have already been riding on the R-142s for the past six months, based on the MTA's original timetable. And with the added equipment the 143s will have to operate with the L's new signaling system, betting on them meeting the timetable there is not the best of odds.
As far as the rest of it goes, moving the Redbirds over would have to coincide with the R-142s going into service at about the same time the 63rd St. connection opens, since I doubt they would leave the `Birds sitting around taking up space if 63rd Street's opening comes eight months to a year after the new IRT cars enter service.
As far as the costs go (which was on another post), attatching an extender to the outside of the cars and changing over the shoes for the B division, along with new roll signs for the cars, would be the main expenses I can think of. The bean counters on Jay Street would have to decide whether or not doing that for an 18 month emergency measure is worth the cost, though I think the extra passengers they'll attract in Queens if the lines become less crowded earlier would make up for any conversion costs.
I'd be absolutley stunned if all the R143 cars were delivered and were running without incident by 2003.
I'd be absolutley stunned if all the R143 cars were delivered and were running without incident by 2003.
HE HE HE HE HE!!! Aren't the R-142's enough of a lesson? Ain't gonna happen!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
the REDBIRDS are going to be transfered to the flushing # 7 line i was told !!!
They are already there!
It's the R-62 that will be on the 7. Finally eliminating those stupid R-33 singles.
Here is a picture of one of the modified Low-V cars used on the BMT in the late 1950's. I'm sure the redbirds could be modified like this as well.
Adapting A-Division cars for B-Division use is the best idea that I've heard in a long time. They did this with Lo-V's on the BMT in the late 1950's as a solution to a car shortage, so its nothing new, just something forgotten.
NYC TRANSIT
01/08/2000
Re: adapting "A" division cars for "B" division service.
That idea worked back then because NYCTA managment had to be creative in solving a temporary problem (ex. SIRT cars on the BMT). This is a new regime at the helm (or controller) and I doubt seriously they would spend any money on cars that already have a death warrant on them.
Bill Newkirk
Why don't they have the 63rd Street connection feeding into Queens Plaza at an important connection point? It seems dumb to make riders go all the way to Roosevelt Avenue just to catch the E and the F.
That would require an even sharper S curve to connect with the Queensbridge tunnel than the N already has to link up with the 60th St. tunnel, plus there's little or no space to bring in two new tracks between the current local and express alignment. By coming in after Queens Plaza, the MTA was able to put in ramps between both tracks, giving local and express trains the option of using the 63rd St. tunnel. Although the tunnel will probably handle Queens Blvd. local trains, this gives the MTA the option of rerouting the F express through 63rd in and emergency situation.
On the map, these two train hubs don't look too far apart. Is it possible to dig a passenger tunnel from Queens Plaza that would connect to the el station? Would it be too long, making transferrers susceptible to muggings? You could have an E/F/R/N/7 transfer, and when they get the 63rd Street tunnel finished, a B/Q/E/F/N/R/7 junction.
The Astoria line crosses right over the Queens Blvd. 36th St IND station, and perhaps a transfer from this station to the 39th Ave. station on the N would be more feasible.
No it dosent. A few years ago, I had extensive delays and walked from 36th St. to the Astoria Line. The Astoria Line is about 5 blocks away from the western edge of the 36th Street Station.
The 63st tunnel will bypass Queens Plaza. Now, connecting Queensbridge to Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza...that'd be a feet. (pun intended)
-Hank
It always seemed to me that the 45 Rd/Court House Square station on the 7 line was just above the Court Square station on the G, and would be a logical place for a transfer.
-- Ed Sachs
This would benefit G riders when the G is cut back to Court Sq. 24/7. Otherwise, the E and F will get flooded at 23rd./Ely.
I think that's a wonderful idea. In order to get from the N to the R now, you have to go all the way to Lexington Avenue in Manhattan.
Not true. You can transfer from the R to the 7 at Roosevelt and take that to Queensboro Plaza for the N.
I have been extensively viewing pictures of old BMT and IRT cars and have come up with a wierd scenario----Correct me if I'm wrong. I noticed until the mid or late 60's many of the IRT cars were Low V's, without numbers or letters of any kind. The exception was the #7 Flushing to Times Square train. The BMT, on the other hand, had B and D types. The locals were B's, the expresses were D's, or Triplexes. Was this a hard and fast rule? The Sea Beach and Brighton Beach Expresses carried the number 4 and 1, while the 4th Ave Local, and the Brighton Local were numberless because of its design. Was this SOP, or did both these transit companies choose their cars by choice.
And what of the Independent Subway System? What cars were they? I do know the GG and F did carry letter designations, but they were the only Ind cars I ever rode. Was that true for the A, C, D, and E?
I can clear up some of your questions:
(1) IRT subway routes last ran Low V equipment in spring 1964 (3rd Ave. El in the Bronx used LowVs until the late 60's). Until 1964 #7 used R12, R14, and R15 equipment. Beginning about 1954, R-series equipment began appearing on the Lex and 7th Ave routes - R17, 22, 26, 29, and 33 cars, for example, replacing Low-Vs. The Woodlawn Jerome #4 line was the last major bastion of the the Low V cars. It did not get any new R type equipment until fall 1962. In the spring of 1964, the R12-14-15 series were shifted to the Lex and 7th Ave. routes to replace the last Low Vs, and allowed the new R36 cars to run on the #7 Line to the NY World's Fair.
(2) The original IND routes - A/AA, C/CC, D, E, F, GG, used R1 through 9 cars, built 1932-41. In 1948 came the R10s, which ran mostly on the A train until the 1967 Chrystie St. changeover.
I was more familiar with Manhattan, Bronx, and Queens routes in the 1950's and 1960's - rarely ventured to Brooklyn then - so I can't answer your question about BMT routes. There are lots of good knowledgeable subtalkers who can, I'm sure.
Fred the Brighton Local or Express was the 1 4th Ave 2, West End 3, Sea Beach 4 Culver 5. Prior to 1955 when the city got the new cars the only cars that were numbered were the Triplex and the Multis on the Eastern Division. The R-1 thr 9 and R 11 on 4th Ave Local also were numbered. If you remember the standards did not have a head sign to show numbers, I remember we used to tell the line from its marker lights Brighton Exp Green-Red, Brighton Local W-W or R-R depending on Term. West End G-W Sea Beach R-W etc. Also the same for the IRTs. Hope that this helped
The R-10's were mainly on the "A"'s well after the 1967 Chrystie St connection, at least into the early 70's.
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The reason that the Lexington Ave. expresses (4 and 5 lines) were the last to get the new R-type cars to replace the Low-Vs is that these routes ran 10-car trains, and the platform lengths were designed for 10-car trains of Low-Vs, where the first door of the front car and the last door of the last car didn't open and were off the platform. Thus the platforms were really only a bit over 9 car lengths. Most of the station platforms needed to be lengthened before 10-car trains of R-types could operate on these lines.
-- Ed Sachs
The LV's could and did use the South Ferry inner loop and the new equipment can't.
If you're talking about the shuttle from Bowling Green there were post Low-V R-series cars on the South Ferry inner loop.
No, I was talking about LV Lex Ave Expresses. They did not require any special modification to use the inner loop like the R series that was used on the shuttle.
I don't thing that the Lexingon Ave. expresses ever used the inner loop. It was just used by the shuttle trains. When the expresses ran through to South Ferry, they used the outer loop.
-- Ed Sachs
They Lexington Ave Expresses did not use the South Ferry inner loop after the LV'S were gone. 10 car LV Expresses could and did use the inner loop.
Let me just clarify my earlier post a little more. The R1 through R10 IND stock all carried the original IND letter designations. All IRT cars, beginning with the R12s in 1947, carried number designations. The BMT/IND R16 cars (1953)carried number designations (initially ran on the #14/15 Jamaica El, today's J train. When the BMT standards and triplexes were replaced in the 1960s, the replacement cars (R27/30s, R32s) carried the post-1961 BMT letter designations that were developed prior to the Chrystie St. 1967 unification, and became official at the time of the IND/BMT marriage in 1967.
01/06/2000
Andy,
I believe the R-16's initially ran on the (A) line before sending them to the Eastern Division. In fact the ceremonial train at the ribbon cutting at Howard Beach or Broad Channel was signed up "SPECIAL", "WAVE CREST". I was told the 200 car order of R-16's were purchased for the Rockaway extension. Why they were sent to the Eastern Division is not clear to me. I have a B&W slide of R-16's at Rockaway Park, with the railfan window open too!
Bill Newkirk
I rode the R-16's on the A-line before they were moved to the Eastern division.
The first Wavecrest 'A' was run with R-16s because they were the newest cars in the system. They were already operating on the Eastern Division and one set was moved over for the ceremonial trip. (I was on it, for whatever that's worth.)
I don't recall any other R-16s being shipped to the IND for Rockaway service after the opening day. The R-10s running on the Eastern Division were sent back to 'A' service.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There are 2 photographs in the R10 section of this site that shows them operating on the Jamaica line in the mid 60's. So a few had to have remained (they also had BMT number signs).
There were some R-16's on the A line when new.I remember riding on them looking out the round window,and looking at the different fans from those of the R-10 cars. How long these cars stayed on the A-line,I don't know.Maybe someone on sub talk knows when all R-16's were sent to the BMT. Side note,also remember riding on the R-11 cars on the A-line.
To all you guys who cleared up the BMT-IRT differentiations, I thank you. It's amazing how much more I've learned since being of part of this august body. Have a great day.
Next stop on the Sea Beach is Fort Hamilton Parkway.
Does anyone know if Bill Russell's very good "Penny Bridge" (NYC area railroads) website is still online?
I tried just attempted clicking on it via my favorite places, but I get a "disconnected" message.
Any one with additional info is greatly appreciated.
Doug aka BMTman
I tried getting in and the server message said it was busy. I'll try again later. It's quite a resource, so I hope he hasn't given it up.
Thanks, Kevin. I'll try again myself, but this wasn't the first time I had a problem (similar situation occurred about a week ago).
Doug aka BMTman
If it's ever back up, could you post the URL?
http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/whatsnew.html
It's still down as of Thursday morning.
Kevin, I get 'Extend Failed' or more often 'Connection Refused'. I have a feeling his site is no longer up.
Too bad. I hope we'll see it again soon.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm pretty sure he runs this off his own office machine at NYU. It being winter break perhaps the power has been shut down or some other such nonsense. Maybe his machine just crashed while he was on vacation. I'm sure it'll be back up.
I can ping the server but I get a DNS error trying to get to even the base URL.
So maybe it's just a server problem.
Oh no! Did the Y2K bug actually get someoone?
I stumbled across this website which details the building of the line in the early 1930's. Check it out.
http://www.railroad.net/nyc/westside.html
Thanks. I linked the site to my pages on 11th Ave. steam engines and the abandoned west side elevated, on
www.forgotten-ny.com
Brochures entitled "Winter Weather Travel on MTA Railroads" were left on LIRR trains this evening. The cover photograph shows a couple of workers shoveling snow off a train station platform in the midst of a heavy snowstorm (probably the blizzard of January 1996). Anyway, I'm trying to figure out what station is shown in the photo. The station name is not quite visible, given the angle of the photo, although I believe it consists of a single word. Here are the clues to the photo's location:
1) It's a Metro-North Harlem or Hudson line station, as the underrunning third rail is visible.
2) There is an island platform with two tracks.
3) Old-looking metal power poles are running down one side of the tracks, still carrying wires (the snow on the wires is quite apparent).
4) Much of the platform is visible, judging by the light poles running down the middle. There is no canopy, just the light poles.
5) No crossover is seen, so this station must be one at which the crossover is located near one end of the platform.
6) The surrounding area seems rather rural. There is a good view of the land off one side of the tracks, and it appears to be fully wooded. Trees are visible on the other side as well. No buildings or other structures are apparent.
Any ideas what station this might be?
the answer is simple rip out the rail transit system we once had........... AND REPLACE IT WITH THE... ( automobile & bus )
LAST LAUGH IS ON US !!! ha ha ???
the three new rail lines dont take anywhere !!!!! ha!
What subway lines in particular do most of you find the rudest and dirtiest people on?
I think that it has to be the 7. I always get shoved on there and people spit all over the place. No wonder why the Flushing Redbirds are in such deplorable shape. It's also the smelliest.
Most of the other subway lines have polite passengers, and are faily clean. Only the 7 train seems to have problems with rude passengers and garbage. Perhaps this has to do with the state of Flushing today.
The F train is much dirtier than the 7. And rudeness prevails on the Lexington Ave line, because of the overcrowding.
It is my experience that ANY subway line will have rude and nasty passengers if the train is packed like a sardine can.
If the trains are not crowded you will not encounter rudeness. It's that simple. No one line has a monopoly on rudeness.
However, some lines ARE filthier than others. That has more to do with the supervision of the cleaning crews at terminal along the lines rather than any particular neighborhoods the trains go through.
I should point out of course that some of the longest lines in the system would naturally accumulate more garbage than others because the distance between terminals (clean ups) are much greater. So don't be surprised to see more trash on the A train (Rockaway Beach), the F, D, and #2 trains. Obviously, the time of day you are on the train makes a big difference too.
I gotta admit that nothing can surpass the amount of trash you'll encounter on the LIRR lines from the rush hour coffee/newspaper crowds.
Doug aka BMTman
Really? I've taken the F at rush hour lately and find the 7 train much worse when it comes to the litter and the people.
I really haven't found the Lexington line getting on my nerves at all, though the West Side IRT (1,2,3,9) is pretty bad with crowding.
The most jostling I've received was in the Beijing Subway. The air also reeked with garlic.
Till recently, I used to reverse commute on the LIRR Port Washington Branch. The seats would be full of empty paper sacks, discarded wrappers, and newspapers, and the floors would have empty soda bottles and spilled coffee, as well as the occasional food residue.
I can't speak about commuter lines in other cities, but in NYC and suburbs, they're resolute slobs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah I once took the PW branch on a weekend and it was packed and litter all over the place. Then again, knowing the LIRR the car might not have been cleaned since the workweek.
I don't blame the LIRR. During the rush hours, every car is in use, or most every car, and they have to turn around the 'equipment' after every run no matter what state it's in, garbage wise.
YEA!!!!!!! change the name to " T he PIG Line !!!!!!
Till recently, I used to reverse commute on the LIRR Port Washington Branch. The seats would be full of empty paper sacks, discarded wrappers, and newspapers, and the floors would have empty soda bottles and spilled coffee, as well as the occasional food residue.
I can't speak about commuter lines in other cities, but in NYC and suburbs, they're resolute slobs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah! And these are the people with the big bucks who look down on us poor folks. Especially the snobs from Port Washington. These people have their noses so far up in the air, I'm surprised that they don't get nosebleed from the altitude. There was a thread in the recent past about the "snobway". They have one. It runs between Port Washington and Penn Station. From what you say about litter on the trains, it looks like the snobway is now also the slobway. They ought to start calling the LIRR the Long Island Refuse Road.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, actually, if there were any justice, the PW branch would be the logical extension of the #7 and they should have converted it decades ago. The Baysiders and Great Neckers would move to Scarsdale if that happened...
Well before you start knocking the people in Nassau may I remind you that alot of people get on the Prt Washington Line in the city (Queens) probably more so than Nassau. Look at the rush hour crowds waiting at Little Neck, Douglaston, Bayside, Auburndale and Main Steet.
They're probably Yankee fans out to embarass the Mets by making their train look seedy. You Mets fans out there are going to have to be on your guard. You know how Yankees fans can be.
MUST YOU ALWAYS RESPOND WITH THE PREVIOUS POST REPRINTED. A 5 PARAGRAPH POST RE POSTED WITH YOUR TWO WORD RESPONSE IS ANNOYING. Besides, You can just click on "Posted by" to see the previous post
MUST YOU ALWAYS RESPOND WITH THE PREVIOUS POST REPRINTED. A 5 PARAGRAPH POST RE POSTED WITH YOUR TWO WORD RESPONSE IS ANNOYING. Besides, You can just click on "Posted by" to see the previous post
First off, don't shout. Its very impolite. Second:
I do that so people will know what I am respondinig to. I find it to be a pain to have to pull up a previous post to see what someone is responding to, and then have to go back again. It is extra work to copy and paste everytime I post, but I do it as a courtesy to those who wish to know what I am responding to, without pulling up a previous post. Since I put references from previous posts in italics, it shouldn't be a problem to scroll down to the non-italic text if it bothers you. Others use quotes or brackets for the same purpose. I use italics. I guess I can cut down on the real long-winded copy and pastes and just put in the key points of a long-winded previous post. You are a regular on this forum. What's with the "unknown"? You don't have to hide. BTW, your IP address matches someone else's on the forum except for the last group of digits. Like I said, you don't have to hide :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Okay I'm not hiding (but didn't post the other msg), could you quote at the bottom of your response?
That way I have less scrolling to get to the meat of the msg and if I don't know what the response is, I can scoll down to it.
Just an idea, thanks.
Come on guys, we're splitting hairs again.
Come on guys, we're splitting hairs again.
Thanks Fred. If anyone is so bothered by my posts, they can skip them. There are threads that I skip. There are also posts from certain people that I skip.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'd prefer not to see everything repeated in italics, because it duplicates the "in response to" text and I have no way to bypass seeing it all twice in trying to read back through a thread. Maybe someone has a suggestion on how I could avoid all the duplication.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well, as long as we're going on about useless stuff in posts, people keep putting the dates in their text, when the system records the time and date of the post, and is made part of the headers. But what absolutely bugs me is the inline graphics people add. Sometime I have to browse from a slow connection, and I have to wait for the image to load before I can finish reading the article. Then there are the users of blinking, flashing, moving HTML, and those who don't close their HTML so their large text winds up carrying down into the links and responses....
-Hank
The latter is annoying, but one can always disable the images.
Depends on whose computer you're using. In my case, not mine.
-Hank
Starting today, I have all but stopped pasting in previous posts and I stopped using my graphic signature. As for italic previous posts, it was extra work for me. I was doing it mostly as a courtesy to those reading my responses. It is less work for me if I don't have to put this stuff in, plus the extra HTML coding. I just keep my web site hyperlink on my clipboard and do one control V. I'm only going to include graphics to illustrate a point in the furure.
NYC TRANSIT
Why? Your previous posting method didn't bother me or most other people. Don't feel compelled to change because others whine.
Its less work, anyway. I got through a two-day backlog on SubTalk alot quicker this way. Anyway, I'll see what I'll do. Even if I keep up the barebones posts, I'll still stick some animatiions and multimedia in there.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I enjoy your animations and graphics. Let the envious ones eat cake! THEY CAN"T DO IT HAHAHAHO
I enjoy your animations and graphics. Let the envious ones eat cake! THEY CAN"T DO IT HAHAHAHO
Alright. You're the 3rd person to tell je this. Its back to business as usual.
:-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I can do it, but this issue came up before. Remeber when someone was posting using the train sign bullets? Everyone came down on hom for slowing down the system, making it harder to read the posts....
-Hank
Any computer that is that slow probably didn't make the Y2K rollover. A new BIOS chip is needed.
Any computer that is that slow probably didn't make the Y2K rollover. A new BIOS chip is needed.
I'm not going to worry about it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I can do it, but this issue came up before. Remember when someone was posting using the train sign bullets? Everyone came down on him for slowing down the system, making it harder to read the posts, waiting for several different graphics to load.
-Hank
I can do it, but this issue came up before. Remember when someone was posting using the train sign bullets? Everyone came down on him for slowing down the system, making it harder to read the posts, waiting for several different graphics to load.
-Hank
I was told by 3 people that they miss my graphics and animations.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Add me as number four. I didn't recognize you when I saw your first "barebones" post!
Game on!
:-)
Add me as number four. I didn't recognize you when I saw your first "barebones" post!
Game on!
:-)
Thanks!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you've seen the animation once, that's enough. It's nicely done, but every time? I've got a cable modem at home so speed isn't a problem, but when I visit my son with his 14.4K modem and only 16M of memory it's all I can do to read the regular ones. (No Y2K issue, it's a Mac.) When I'm there, yours I have to skip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you've seen the animation once, that's enough. It's nicely done, but every time? I've got a cable modem at home so speed isn't a problem, but when I visit my son with his 14.4K modem and only 16M of memory it's all I can do to read the regular ones. (No Y2K issue, it's a Mac.) When I'm there, yours I have to skip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It only has to load one time. Once its in the cache, it appears instantly. I would suggest a 56K modem and at least double the RAM, maybe even quadrouple it. Don't do it on account of me. Do it just to survive on today's Internet, that's chock full of graphics and multimedia. Noone has a 14.4K modem anymore, no less only 16 MB RAM. BTW, if you don't wish to take my advice, you can always disable graphics in the browser so that no graphics will load at all, speeding up things immensely.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm still going to use italics if I respond to a particular point in a message and not some others. This way the reader will know what I'm talking about.
And since italics are clear, there's no problem with people having to read something twice, with me, you'll know it's something I took from the next message upthread.
I'll use the italics when I feel I need to. Its a time-saver to forgo it when its not needed. You know, people will always find something to complain about. I was doing alot of copying and pasting mainly as a courtesy to the other readers, so they wouldn't have to pull up the previous post to see what I was responding to. Then came the complainers. I'm not on here to spite anybody. If I was, I'd copy and paste the entire IND History that Mark Feinman just did, which has the Gettysburg Address beat by a long shot!
NYC TRANSIT
If you ride in the front car of an uptown bound C or E train, you will notice a series of mysterious spray-painted words between the 23rd and 34th Street Stations. They simply say "REVSOUP" over and over again. I must find out what this means! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
This could have something to do with the mysterious individuals known as REVS and COST who were tagging everything in sight way back in the early 90s.
"Way back in the early 90s"???
Argghhhhhh....
Kevin, Are you the NYPD Sgt. in the vandal Squad. If so, E-mail me privately.
>>>Kevin, Are you the NYPD Sgt. in the vandal Squad. If so, E-mail me privately. <<<
Actually, I'm looking for work! They need anyone in the force? I'd love to assist in the elimination of graff/scratchiti.
Actually, I know who you mean but I haven't seen him in years. I knew A Kevin Walsh in the 73rd years ago and I knew he eventually made sergeant.
Kevin Walsh is a common name. The animal trainer at the NY Aquarium in Coney is named Kevin Walsh, and he shows up on TV every time they get a baby whale or something.
I have a cousin Kevin Walsh. We're all over.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In fact, a Kevin Walsh in CT registered kevinwalsh.com.
That's one site I gotta bookmark. After I sue him.
[ kevinwalsh.com ]
So far there's no there there. He just reserved the name.
You can see it on Internic Whois.
Then there's another Kevin Walsh who took kevinwalsh.net.
Youse guys are busy.
That's on almost every single pillar on the 8th Avenue line going all the way out to Brooklyn. Some people have nothing better to do. I've seen it in the Queens Boulevard tunnels too.
Wayne
Just finished reading the "Final 1999" issue of Cubic newsletter (the mfg of NYC farebox, turnstile & MVM machines). This issue has several articles about Smart Cards:
- Puerto Rico: The turnstiles in their new rail system will be "smart card ready"
- China, i.e. Guangzhou & Shanghai will use mag & smart cards
- Singapore: Incl. smart card vending machines
- Hong Kong: They call the card a "Tourist Octopus", seriously they do, it's used on the 7 stn airport line & comes pre-valued at $50
- Chicago: No new info. on their efforts
- Wash D.C.: They claim it's working well on the rails & will on the buses in the "future"
- Trivia 1: Smart cards use FRAM vs. RAM or DRAM memory, i.e. Ferroelectric RAM.
- Trivia 2: A standalone reader/validator has a "cave" that you put your smart card into vs. walking near a reader. Benifit, the reader angle is at 45 degrees to NOT radiate everyone who walks by.
London detail: 86 bus depots are included in Cubic system, the MVM machines are called ETM (Electronic Ticket Machine), just like the subway is the underground over there.
NYC news:
- 1,589 MVM (card sale) machines in the total order
- 1,005 MRM (refill) machines in the total order
- There's a photo of George Pataki being shown a Smart Card by a NYC Cubic salesman.
- 29 Depot Computers are installed in NYC bus depots
- 3,425 Cubic Turnstiles installed & 880 Readers
- 400 Iron Maidens will be installed, 222 so far
- JFK Express will accept MCs
- LIRR will accept MCs ... it's not clear what this means ...
"... (from subway & buses) and to the LIRR will feature MetroCard to provide seemless transfers."
- Restating the policy: "Tokens will be phased out and the railroad clerks, who have been selling tokens and MetroCards will be re-trained as Customer Service Representatives"
Copywrite Disclaimer: Don't see one, so I guess it's OK for me to lift text from their publication.
Mr t__:^)
===
Copywrite Disclaimer: Don't see one, so I guess it's OK for me to lift text from their publication.
===
A copyright notice doesn't need to by explicitly stated to be in effect. Unless stated otherwise all published material is copyrighted.
OK ... Kirk, I didn't know that ... thanks for the input.
(I usually mention the source & author & quote less then 400 words to avoid breaking the law)
Mr t__:^)
The SmarTrips won't be used on the buses until 2001 at the earliest without the normal delays WMATA has when implementing something. The equation to figure it out is to hard to put here. Often, it comes out to 1-2 years after they say it should happen.
By that time maybe they'll already be on the buses in Chicago & NYC.
Mr t__:^)
What JFK Express? Are they talking about the Port Authority project?
(or should I call it "The Train to the Plane II?)
That's the one ... let me lift more of the article:
"For the future, we envision expansion of the basic MetroCard system as other agencies within the metropolitan region enter the program. For example, the JFK Airport Access, which links to NYCT subway and bus services and to the LIRR will feature MetroCard ...."
Mr t__:^)
That's the title of a small Newday article by Michael Arena Wed.
Public Advocate Mark Green found this out in a month long survey he did. Only problem is that just 759 folks surveyed.
Anyhow it says these NYC folks think the 2nd Ave sTubway and N extention to La Guardia are more important then Grand Central/LIRR link. 130 of the 759 think the JFK Express is a good idea.
Mr t__:^)
Sure, like Long Island residents, City residents believe their improvements are more important (especially if the question is phrased a certain way). And they believe they are getting stiffed. And they are right.
But it's a question of fairness. It would be equally unfair to make major improvements in the city and NOT build the LIRR to GCT connection as the reverse.
A real question: "Which of these four do you favor?"
"Building both the 2nd Avenue Subway and more connections for the commuter railroads, even if it means somewhat higher fares and taxes or lower spending on other things?"
"Not building either the 2nd Avenue subway or more connections for the commuter railroads, so fares and taxes can be kept low?"
"Building the 2nd Avenue subway, but not doing anything to improve mass transit for the suburbs."
"Building connections for commuter railroads, but not doing anything to improve mass transit in the city?"
Unfortunately, up in the Vampire State they have #5 -- "do studies and get credit for mass transit improvments in the newspaper that never happen, while spending money on other things."
["Building both the 2nd Avenue Subway and more connections for the commuter railroads, even if it means somewhat higher fares and taxes or lower spending on other things?"]
I'll vote for this one. I think it goes without saying that the IND line connection to the 63rd tunnel will be finished. I would add some serious work for the N extention to La Guardia, i.e. more then just another study.
Commuter bus & rail ... LIRR connection to Grand Central would be number one on my list, but Dean Skelos & the other NY State politians will want to drain off a big chunk of the money for local (LI & upstate) cities. That's OK with me so long move forward with my top three.
Mr t__:^)
#6 - "Propose improvements and major capital spending, knowing that parochial local interests will hold them hostage in dog-in-the-manger politics,. We won't have to build the improvements BUT IT WON'T BE OUR FAULT."
[dog-in-the-manger politics]
Now that's a term I haven't heard before. What does it mean?
The fable of the dog in the manger goes something like this:
A dog and an ox are isolated in a manger by a snowstorm. The ox has plenty of hay to eat but the dog has nothing. The dog says, "well I can't eat hay, but I can prevent the ox from having it." So the dog bites and snaps to keep the ox from getting at the hay and both animals starve.
So a dog-in-the-manger attitude means to prevent someone from having something you have no use for, even if that preventing can't get you what you want.
While I have you folks on my knee for story time, I've heard this story attributed to Russia:
A peddler making his rounds through the countryside sees a farmyard in choas, with uprooted trees and damaged buildings. At the farm's fence, he is greeted by the farmer who is smiling and laughing.
"What happened to your farm, Yuri?" asks the peddler.
"Oh, I can't begin to tell you," answers the farmer, chuckling as he speaks. "Yesterday a terrible tornado ripped through my farm, destroying half my buildings and half my livestock."
"Why, that's horrible, exclaims the peddler. But why are you smiling and laughing?"
"Well," he laughs, hardly able to contain himself, "my neighbor Ivan lost all his buildings and all his livestock!
New York Politics 101.
(Dog and hay story)
In that story, the dog didn't have to pay taxes to give the ox his hay while starving to death. City residents pay for half of anything state-funded that happens anywhere else. That seems to be a good enough reason to say "what about me."
Note that in the state legislature, representatives from other areas demand compensation for allowing New York City to use ITS OWN LOCAL TAX DOLLARS to do something. NO ONE in NYC would object to the LIRR to GCT if Nassau and Suffolk Counties agreed to use their own local tax dollars to pay for it. New Yorkers would also celebrate if the commuter tax was instituted to pay for such improvments.
Paul, the argument always is that New York City gets too big a share of the tax dollars paid by New York City residents and businesses. Any money flowing the other way is welfare and waste. After a few decades of this (and the presence of more people with financially motivated "Republican" attitudes), people have hand enough.
Ah, there's the dog's side of the story.
The ox, of course, has neither needs, nor does he pay taxes.
My understanding of the issue goes something like this:
1) The MTA wants to build the LIRR to GCT connection, and spend money to "study" part of the Second Avenue subway and dig a few holes.
2) Silver does want to agree to BUILD the LIRR to GCT connection unless the MTA agrees to STUDY building the entire Second Avenue line.
3) The Republicans are unwilling to do anything about the Second Avenue subway; they want more money spent on roads.
You've said that people out in Nassau aren't against improvments in the city, but the representatives don't vote that way. People in the city might complain about improvements elsewhere, but the representatives don't vote THAT way.
It may seem churlish to demand tit for tat. I suspect that in exchange for tit now, New York City is unlikely to get tat later. Again, the idea is that city residents deserve NOTHING, like the dog.
If you re-read my posts in this thread, I did not characterize either side as the "dog" or the "ox." You chose to be the "dog."
I've presented specific information in the past as to taxation levels and city-state payments for different services. I can't continue to respond to generalities, and won't do so here.
You can find "facts" where you want them. The source of funding for LIRR-GCT has not been identified, yet you insist City people will pay for it. You compare the building of the ENTIRE Second Avenue subway with the GCT connection, but the more appropriate comparison is between the GCT connection and the 63rd Street tunnel connection. Each is to provide increased capacity for existing lines--neither represents a new line in itself.
As to the feelings of people in Nassau County, I don't live there and won't characterize their opinions. Still, if you know of a Nassau politician who has threatened to hold up the Second Avenue subway, or the Archer Avenue subway, or the rebuilding of the Franklin Shuttle, or the 63rd Street connection to the IND Queens Line, or more than funding for thousands of new buses and subway cars UNLESS the LIRR-GCT connection, kindly quote one for me.
For that matter, if you know of any suburban politician who has threatened to cancel the MetroCard discounts, or "one city one fare" unless the confiscatory LIRR and MNRR fares are lowered, quote that for me, too.
[For that matter, if you know of any suburban politician who has threatened to cancel the MetroCard discounts, or "one city one fare" unless the confiscatory LIRR and MNRR fares are lowered, quote that for me, too.]
I'm pleased to see your comment about LIRR and MNRR fares. Most of the debate focuses on the higher subsidy levels of commuter rail fares as compared to subway and bus fares. Yet the fact remains that commuter rail fares, heavily subsidized as they may be, are high enough to be a real financial burden on many commuters. I may earn a decent if not spectacular salary, but the $214 I pay each month for my LIRR ticket takes a significant bite out of my budget. Knowing that there's a big subsidy is small consolation. In comparison, if I lived in the city I'd get unlimited subway and bus travel for less than one-third the amount. Even with lower subsidies, that's a terrific bargain.
(LIRR and MetroNorth riders, fares and subsidy)
There was someone in my office just the other day, collecting data on the relative subsidies of the commuter railroads and the NYCTA.
Paul would be please to know that I pointed out that he had to include the source and uses of the MTA's dedicated tax revenues in any calculation of subsidies -- suburban tax payments are spread over fewer riders. And that he should consider who it is that is being subsidized more heavily, LIRR riders or employees?
Somehow there doesn't see the push to improve productivity on the commuter railroads. You have to ask yourself -- is there ANY way these railroads can collect fares for less money than they do with all those lucky/nasty conductors? I'd even consider the SIRT solution -- turnstiles at the terminals, with a fee to get on OR off the train, and no fare control elsewhere: free service within Long Island. Or the "good faith" system with spot checks and heavy fines.
Thank you, Larry. I do read and evaluate your posts, and I'm glad to see you do the same for mine.
If I can make a bottom line comment: unlike some regional agencies, whose role may be coordination, oversight, etc., the MTA's major role appears to be political.
The representatives of the City, State, localities, etc., meet in Albany to hash out who gets what in painful detail. Then (speaking for the transportation side here) the MTA is given its marching orders: they don't merely distribute "x" dollars for this or "y" dollars for that, they tell the agencies what are politically aceeptable or unacceptable ways to run their businesses. In the case of the LIRR, they have been told, "you make no fare changes without prior approval."
So the LIRR sits on a pot of money: it receives the 1/4% sales tax from Nassau & Suffolk, it receives station payments from the localities, it receives mandated funds and State payments. What does it do with all this? It can't lower fares. It can't increase service. It doesn't have to share its subsidy with a bus system. So it buys labor peace.
And I'm not dumping on the LIRR personnel. Even though it's a job I wouldn't mind having, being an engineer or conductor on the LIRR is no piece of cake. But here are many built in expenses and inefficencies that a committed management could negotiate our of existence, if it had any incentive to do so.
The posturings you see by local politicians are "street theater," window dressing to amuse the groundlings and get reelection or higher office. All these politicians know the deal has already been done in Albany.
But there is a bigger bottom line. Excuse me for shouting but: THERE IS NO FREE MARKET IN NEW YORK AREA TRANSPORTATION. When one makes the argument that city or suburban riders are subsidized to "x" extent of the fare, you are assuming that the full cost of the fare is a reasonable and logical amount.
To put it another way: the round trip fare from Penn to Babylon in $181/month. That is the cheapest ticket. If you believe that the "farebox recovery" is a meaningful figure, and that figure is about 50 cents, then you need to accept that $362/month is what that ticket should cost. That is a half year of MetroCards.
If the LIRR were a private business, do you think people would pay that $362 a month? And subway fare on top of it? Or would they look for other alternatives?
If you're still with me, I'll make a supermarket analogy. The government decides that everyone needs subsidized bread. The free market price of bread is $1.29 for a pound loaf, but the government sets the price of bread at even dollar. I'd say the subsidy is then 29 cents per loaf. But wait, the government demands that a government-paid official hand out each loaf to the recipient. They mandate that a bread consultant be present in each supermarket to answer consumer's questions about how to use and store the bread. It has a large accounting department and analysts to find out who is getting the bread and that it is distributed fairly. Of course the bread czar needs a staff. At the farm, the government demands that the wheat destined for bread be housed in different facilities from other wheat, and places inspectors to make sure this is done. It also pays the farmers and supermarkets generously for growing the bread wheat and providing space for storing and selling the bread.
Now at the end of the year, the taxpayers want to know why they are paying so much in taxes for the subsidized bread. The bread czar says, "What? We've totalled up the full cost of bread production and it is $8.75 a loaf. Every time you buy a dollar loaf of bread you're receiving a $7.75 subsidy. You're really ungrateful."
Paul, you're right about this, and the more I think about the more I like the ideas of vouchers, privatization, and deunification IN GENERAL. If the community decides there is something people should have, regardless of their personal income, it should give them the income to buy it themselves. Then they have the power, and providers of services ahve to please them. Sellers of food have to try to please food stamp recipients, poor though they may be. The LIRR doesn't have to please its riders. It has to please the politicians. Same with all those social service providers getting the Democratic dollar here in the city.
Getting back to the equivalence of the LIRR to GCT and the 63rd St tunnel, I think the 63rd St connection is almost the equivalent to the portion of the LIRR to GCT that is already being built, the connection on the Queens side. Equivalent in cost.
Which brings me back to something I thought of before. Why doesn't the LIRR install a couple of platforms and a way to turn the trains under the 21st Street station RIGHT NOW, as an interim measure? From what I read (on this site), one reason there is crowding on the Queens line is that everyone packs on the express, leaving room even on the one through local, so the Feds are skeptical about the ability of a second local to solve the problem. That means two locals are bound to have some room at 21st Street, and there is plenty of room to run more trains on the Queens local track.
The LIRR would have another place to terminate trains and turn them around. Riders could walk up stairs and ride two stops into Manhattan. They'd have to get out at 63rd St and walk down -- a long way from GCT but not so far from the zillions of jobs north of 48th St.
As I said, I'm most interested in what can be funded right now. My great fear is that Sheldon Silver will be a "hero" for having the MTA study the whole Second Avenue subway for $700 million, rather than study the upper part and dig a few holes. I understand that not even the full LIRR to GCT connection is funded in this plan, although most if it is. Better to get the money now before someone else does.
Paul, you're right about this, and the more I think about the more I like the ideas of vouchers, privatization, and deunification IN GENERAL.
I believe that Unification was a mistake. I also wouldn't be averse to putting together arguments and discussions as to whether/how some kind of privitization could be accomplished.
However, I don't currently see how, given history and current poltical currents, any truly competitive private operators could be convinced to enter the field. To put it another way, I think I'd rather be asked to separate a layer cake into core components, or be assigned to assemble a living cow from parts purchased on W.14th St.
[...] The LIRR doesn't have to please its riders. It has to please the politicians. [...]
And ultimately, the TA does, too. Can you suggest how to retrain management to fear the rider rather than the politician, when its the politician who would be ordering them to please the public?
Which brings me back to something I thought of before. Why doesn't the LIRR install a couple of platforms and a way to turn the trains under the 21st Street station RIGHT NOW, as an interim measure?
Um... How about because there's no LIRR line running from the existing LIRR to 21st Street?
The complete 63rd Street TA line from 6th and 7th Avenues to the IND Queens Line will probably see service this year. The LIRR line exists only as a soggy lower level in the 63rd Street tunnel.
As I said, I'm most interested in what can be funded right now. My great fear is that Sheldon Silver will be a "hero" for having the MTA study the whole Second Avenue subway for $700 million, rather than study the upper part and dig a few holes. I understand that not even the full LIRR to GCT connection is funded in this plan, although most if it is. Better to get the money now before someone else does.
Gee, we see that the same, too! If this keeps up I'll have to borrow some meds from Heypaul!
I'm very much in favor of pushing the TA 100% to build the piece of 2nd Avenue they offering RIGHT NOW! I think it's the one best hope to see something on 2nd Avenue actually run in my lifetime.
(No secret LIRR tunnel to 21st street)
I've asked about this, and its there. (Incredibly) the MTA has been thinking ahead and building the LIRR connection on the Queens side at the same time as the subway connection, so they won't have to restage the job again. I had been concerned that, in typical fashion, one year after 63rd St opened they'd have to shut it down to work underneath.
They're only doing the part under the subway. So the LIRR tunnel is under Northern Blvd, across a couple of lots from the Sunnyside Yard to the south. The MTA would have to start the LIRR to GCT project by building that piece of the tunnel, along with the temporary platforms and switches on the Queens side, before starting the Manhattan side.
It can be done. It's certainly what the BMT would have done, rather than wait for everything to be finished. The LIRR would have more capacity the moment 63rd St opened.
BTW -- that's why the "stubway" needs to be done at the same time as the LIRR to GCT. They'll have the ground open at the interchange between the 2nd Avenue and 63rd St lines. If they don't build the interchange then, they won't be able to do it later without screwing everything up. I'm told that's what the MTA wants to do.
That's why we should get a stubway at least to 72nd St.
To be honest I've been riding on the LIRR for off & on over 40 years and I don't remember any real nasty conductor.
(Nasty conductors -- haven't seen em)
Must have come out on the weekends, when I used to ride. As I recall, the LIRR doesn't clean the cars on the weekends either. Those were some miserable rides.
[re nasty LIRR conductors]
LIRR conductors sometimes come off as nasty when they're simply being businesslike. What I suspect to be the case is that some riders equate conductors with airline flight attendants, who are usually perky and friendly. In comparison to that sort of demeanor, a conductor's all-business attitude can come off as rude when that really isn't the case.
LIRR conductors sometimes come off as nasty when they're simply being businesslike. What I suspect to be the case is that some riders equate conductors with airline flight attendants, who are usually perky and friendly.
That's still no reason for the conductor to threaten me with his ticket punch when I asked if he'd freshen my drink and bring me some seasoned almonds.
"You have to ask yourself -- is there ANY way these railroads can collect fares for less money than they do with all those lucky/nasty conductors? "
To be honest I've been riding on the LIRR for off & on over 40 years and I don't remember any real nasty conductor. Most of them are very professional.
To be honest I've been riding on the LIRR for off & on over 40 years and I don't remember any real nasty conductor. Most of them are very professional.
Actually, that's pretty much my experience--but, if you think about it, people tend to ride the same train every day (with even rush hour trains spaced 20-30 minutes apart that's no big surprise). Someone pointed out that people even tend to the same car and same seats, if they can get them.
So conductors know that if they're nasty to someone, they're likely to see that same someone day after day after day. Can make for a pretty tense job situation.
I do recall, in the waning days of the Pennsy and PC nefore Amtrak, some of the long distance conductors (and a lot of the other RR personnel who met the public) could be pretty bad. I once asked a conductor "Why aren't some of the personnel more pleasant. Don't they want to keep the passenger trains (and their jobs) going?"
His answer: "The passenger personnel are mostly seniority men. The passenger trains will probably go under anyway, and I'll have my pick of the best freight runs."
(See the same people every day)
So maybe that explains my observations: I only rode the LIRR on weekends, back before we had a car. Maybe they're nicer and more professional during the week.
I think it's time I wrote my State Senator about this. Maybe if a few of the others here did the same it might have some effect.
Mr t__:^)
[It may seem churlish to demand tit for tat. I suspect that in exchange for tit now, New York City is unlikely to get tat later. Again, the idea is that city residents deserve NOTHING, like the dog.]
That's not so bad. Who wants tat, I'd rather take the ... oh, never mind.
Seriously, though, this whole LIRR-vs.-Second Avenue debate boils down to one of the City's and metropolitan area's most critical problems, namely the almost complete absence of regional thinking. City residents and suburban residents seem incapable of even the most basic sorts of cooperation that everyone takes for granted in most parts of the country. Something is completely amiss when the City will offer a corporation millions in "incentives" if the corporation threatens to relocate two miles to Jersey City. People have got to start thinking in regional terms and stop this childish competition.
[That's not so bad. Who wants tat, I'd rather take the ... oh, never mind.
Seriously, though, this whole LIRR-vs.-Second Avenue debate boils down to one of the City's and metropolitan area's most critical problems, namely the almost complete absence of regional thinking. City residents and suburban residents seem incapable of even the most basic sorts of cooperation that everyone takes for granted in most parts of the country. Something is completely amiss when the City will offer a corporation millions in "incentives" if the corporation threatens to relocate two miles to Jersey City. People have got to start thinking in regional terms and stop this childish competition.]
Amen to that--we're just shooting ourselves in the hooves. It's time for people to start saying "us us us" instead of "me me me."
Just for once, I'd like to meet a politician who says "hey, let's sit down and do what's fair" rather than fighting over scraps. I mean, just how much income do those muncipally subsidized stadiums bring into a City anyway? Enough to pay for themselves? I didn't think so.
[The fable of the dog in the manger goes something like this:
A dog and an ox are isolated in a manger by a snowstorm. The ox has plenty of hay to eat but the dog has nothing. The dog says, "well I can't eat hay, but I can prevent the ox from having it." So the dog bites and snaps to keep the ox from getting at the hay and both animals starve.]
To make this really like New York politics, the farmer (aka Uncle Sam) would wait until both animals are dead, and then use the hay (aka federal money) to feed other animals in the Sunbelt.
[To make this really like New York politics, the farmer (aka Uncle Sam) would wait until both animals are dead, and then use the hay (aka federal money) to feed other animals in the Sunbelt.]
Except that New York would offer twice as much feed as the Sunbelt to any starving animal that cared to move here, and offer to take the feed away from any middle class animals that cared to move here to pay for it.
Number 1 is the most reasonable.
However, number 3 is not totally out of the question. Not to knock the suburbs, but it should be remembered that Long Islanders use LIRR & NYCT primarily Mon-Fri during and during rush hours and rarely on weekends (with the exception of Shea Stadium & MSG events). Building new or extended lines for the subway should have presidence over other projects since city dwellers use mass transit 24-7 (work as well as leisure transportation). You will not find a large amount of city residents using LIRR or MetroNorth on a regular basis.
It might sound a bit bias toward the cities, but it is within the city limits that the vast majority of subway riders reside.
Doug aka BMTman
What a can of worms! The enternal city/suburb fight. What I don't see anyone discussing is who benefits, and how many. How many passengers will likely use either project? It makes sense for city taxpayers to pay for city transit, until you realize how few people actually work right at GCT and all those suburbanites hop on the subway.
On the other hand, it doesn't help the city to have employers move out to the suburbs where their employees live.
Too bad we have to depend on politicians to manage our lives!
(Never trust anyone who actually wants to run for office)
Bill
[What a can of worms! The enternal city/suburb fight. What I don't see anyone discussing is who benefits, and how many. How many passengers will likely use either project? It makes sense for city taxpayers to pay for city transit, until you realize how few people actually work right at GCT and all those suburbanites hop on the subway.
On the other hand, it doesn't help the city to have employers move out to the suburbs where their employees live.]
It seems to me that the City does have two advantages to offer suburbanites--its cultural richness, and lower commute times. But if the City wants to attract those suburbanites, it will have to offer school vouchers, improved transportation, and other services that will make it more competitive with the suburbs. Otherwise, for the City to survive, it has to make transportation from the suburbs easy, because local businesses need that highly skilled labor pool.
The same Newsday article finds that Queens folks don't think the Second Avenue subway is very important.
"The monthlong survey of 759 citywide completed in November found that 27 percent of riders in Queens want the N train extended to LaGuardia from its current destination of Ditmars Avenue in Astoria. Another 17 percent say they favor a one-seat ride from midtown to Kennedy Airport.
"Only 18 percent in Queens favored a Second Avenue subway that would stretch from the Bronx to Brooklyn. Another 7 percent said they would support a shorter Manhattan-only version of the plan."
The whole article boils down to: people support what they think they'll use, could care less about what they won't.
What a surprise.
(People support what they could use.)
If only people paid for what they used, then they would have a more realistic view of whether or not to support it, and wouldn't have to worry about being taken by someone else. Throwing all this money in the MTA/Vampire state pot and fighting over it just leads to discord, and a total lack of emphasis on getting what you pay for.
The more the money is separated, the better off we would all be. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middlemen in Albany. The only people who would be worse off are the middlemen.
And how exactly do you propose to distinguish "yours" from "ours" when you're dealing not only with the reality of free movement across municipal and state boundaries but with capital improvements that are DESIGNED to move people across boundaries? Commuter rail IS used by some city residents, and the subways are clearly used by suburbanites who come to the city (on commuter rail) to work. One of the rationales for federal and state funding of local transportation is that people from the rest of the state and nation use those "local" transportation facilities and it would be unfair to have the portion of costs not covered by the farebox fall entirely upon the local residents through local taxes. Unless you forbid suburban residents to use city transit and regional transit systems refuse city residents as passengers, there IS no "yours" and "ours" when it comes to transit.
More puzzling is how commuter rail and regional buses would be handled if you were granted your wish to "cut out" the MTA and state "middlemen." Of course, the City of New York or a City authority could operate city transit, but would each city, town, and village, regardless of its relative population and tax base, be responsible for maintaining and operating the portion of LIRR or Metro-North that ran through it? Some sort of regional agency, above the municipal and even county level, is needed to operate regional transportation systems (even if it were just an "alliance" or "association" of municipalities pooling their resources to operate regional transit). And once you're talking super-municipal, that's either the state or some authority created by the state, with the authority to impose and collect taxes or at least **compel** member municipalities and counties to pony up their share of funding.
In theory the TA, LIRR and Metro North ARE fiscally independent, but certain funding sources move among them. That's why the city does a little better at the MTA than, say, the Port Authority.
Let's just say we haven't done so well on the state tax dollar portion lately, and what we have gotten is the discounted fares Paul referred to. The Transit Authority receives ZERO New York State capital funding, just operating funding. I could almost accept the reverse. I'd rather have a higher fare, and a better system.
(For its part, the city has also drastically cut its funding for transit.)
One thing is for sure: I wouldn't could on any improvement which is not fully funded and built in THIS capital plan. By the end of it, the MTA will be so deep in debt that there may not be another one for some time. I'm not keen to have the entire 2nd Avenue subway "studied." I'd be content if the entire "stubway," the entire LIRR connection, and the N to LaGuardia were funded now, and built in the next recession.
But that's not what we'll get.
[More puzzling is how commuter rail and regional buses would be handled if you were granted your wish to "cut out" the MTA and state "middlemen." Of course, the City of New York or a City authority could operate city transit, but would each city, town, and village, regardless of its relative population and tax base, be responsible for maintaining and operating the portion of LIRR or Metro-North that ran through it?]
Something of that sort already occurs with respect to the commuter lines. Many if not most station parking lots are owned by the municipalites in which they are located, rather than by the MTA. It should come as no surprise that access to each such lot is almost always restricted to municipality residents. People who live in municipalities without stations, or in unincorporated areas, are [deleted] out of luck.
Paul, John, Larry & Peter ... another thing I like about this site is thoughtful debates like this ... thanks guys for sharing with the rest of us.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks, Mr t__:^).
Except for the occasional obvious troll, even (maybe especially)provocative posts add to the discussion and help all of us form our ideas and add to our knowledge.
It seems to me that, in the last half-year at least, discussions here and even in nyc.transit are getting more knowledgeable and focused as people express their points of view and history and politics are examined and chewed over.
Does anyone else think so?
I'm happy to exchange views on this site, and am always learning something new. For example, after some of your posts, I looked it up and in 1997 the state didn't provide any capital money for the LIRR either. So I guess that's equally fair, or unfair.
I enjoy the considered give-and-take that we have on this board. My wife, on the other hand, wishes I didn't find it so interesting!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I enjoy the considered give-and-take that we have on this board. My wife, on the other hand, wishes I didn't find it so interesting!
My wife says I spend too much time on the Internet altogether, whether I'm working, posting on SubTalk, reading the news, surfing, playing chess, or whatever. So what if I'm online 12-16 hours a day!
NYC TRANSIT
[It seems to me that, in the last half-year at least, discussions here and even in nyc.transit are getting more knowledgeable and focused as people express their points of view and history and politics are
examined and chewed over.]
I agree completely as far as SubTalk is concerned, and sort of, in the case of nyc.transit.
[And how exactly do you propose to distinguish "yours" from "ours" when you're dealing not only with the reality of free movement across municipal and state boundaries but with capital improvements that are DESIGNED to move people across boundaries? Commuter rail IS used by some city residents, and the subways are clearly used by suburbanites who come to the city (on commuter rail) to work. One of the rationales for federal and state funding of local transportation is that people from the rest of the state and nation use those "local" transportation facilities and it would be unfair to have the portion of costs not covered by the farebox fall entirely upon the local residents through local taxes. Unless you forbid suburban residents to use city transit and regional transit systems refuse city residents as passengers, there IS no "yours" and "ours" when it comes to transit.]
Seems to me the simple solution is to have people pay for what they use, rather than offer a heavily subsidized and ultimately uneconomical service. That would inevitably result in some reallocation of costs, and a concommitant reallocation of property values, with property closer to the City center gaining value and property in less dense areas losing it, but the net result would be the most efficient allocation of resources.
That raises some other problems, such as parity between automobile transit, in which the roads are built and maintained by the government, with mass transit. Since the highway subsidies aren't about to go away, have the mass transit ROW built, maintained, and policed out of the same pool.
Seems to me the simple solution is to have people pay for what they use, rather than offer a heavily subsidized and ultimately uneconomical service. That would inevitably result in some reallocation of costs, and a concommitant reallocation of property values, with property closer to the City center gaining value and property in less dense areas losing it, but the net result would be the most efficient allocation of resources.
Fare zoning is a concept that is totally alien to New York City. It will never be accepted by the people, and hopefully will NEVER be implemented. How would you like to have your cable bill metered. The more you watch TV, the higher your cable bill will be. How would you like to pay by the hour for Internet access like it was a few years ago? Don't give the TA any "bright" ideas. You and alot of other people will be sorry. This is not Washington, DC or London.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Fare zoning is a concept that is totally alien to New York City. It will never be accepted by the people, and hopefully will NEVER be implemented. How would you like to have your cable bill metered. The more you watch TV, the higher your cable bill will be. How would you like to pay by the hour for Internet access like it was a few years ago? Don't give the TA any "bright" ideas. You and alot of other people will be sorry. This is not Washington, DC or London.]
Well, I won't, because I live in Manhattan--LOL.
But frankly I don't see a problem with it. It works fine for cabs. And the only way to make efficient use of a resource is to let people know what they're paying for it.
[Fare zoning is a concept that is totally alien to New York City. It will never be accepted by the people, and hopefully will NEVER be implemented. How would you like to have your cable bill metered. The more you watch TV, the higher your cable bill will be. How would you like to pay by the hour for Internet access like it was a few years ago? Don't give the TA any "bright" ideas. You and alot of other people will be sorry. This is not Washington, DC or London.]
Well, I won't, because I live in Manhattan--LOL.
But frankly I don't see a problem with it. It works fine for cabs. And the only way to make efficient use of a resource is to let people know what they're paying for it.
If you feel that way, quit using the subway and start using cabs for everything. Living in Manhattan, I'm sure you can afford it. You think that zoned fares are so great because you have a short trip in Manhattan. With zoned fares, you probably think that you could roll back the fare to 50¢ for yourself, while people in the outer portions of Queens and Brooklyn would be paying $3. That's a very selfish attitude. You care about nobody but yourself. Remember, what goes around comes around. Hey, let me tell you something. I live 1300 miles from NY. It wouldn't affect me in the least, but I care about my fellow man. I care if they all of a sudden have to pay double or triple to get around town. I hope your cable company in Manhattan does start charging you by the hour. It would give you a taste of what zoned fares are like. You certainly would be singing a different tune if you lived in Coney Island, or out in Little Neck. I've been reading some of the wierdest things on this BB lately - closing rapid transit lines and replacing them with buses and now zoned fares. Some of you guys must be smoking those funny little cigarettes!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Due to the number of eligible voters in Manhattan vesus those in the outer boroughs, there is no way a zoned system will be put in directly by any politician. Only if they could come up with some "Blue Ribbon Panel" similar to the one Congress created to deal with base closings -- where the panel's decisions could not be challenged by the politicians -- would it have any possibility of becoming reality.
Moral -- Beware of Blue Ribbon Panels.
We have zoned fares. The subway is one zone, and the commuter rail system is several. It doesn't cost the system more to move people longer distances, unless you can open up yards further in, and that costs money.
If we are going to vary the fare, it should be by time of day, not the station you get on, with higher peak hour fares. And that one is actually feasible, since it would work without an exit swipe.
Moreover, the way the city is evolving, the poor are living further out, not closer in -- the reverse of 50 years ago -- so zoned fares are unfair to the poor. But the working poor are more likely to have jobs that start or end in off peak hours, so peak hour pricing is not as unfair.
[If we are going to vary the fare, it should be by time of day, not the station you get on, with higher peak hour fares. And that one is actually feasible, since it would work without an exit swipe.]
True, to a point - what about trips that begin in one time period (off-peak or peak), but end in another? You'd see a lot of those because of the lengthy trips common in the subway and bus system. Let's say that evening peak runs from 4 to 7. John enters the subway at 3:55 and rides for an hour. Most of his trip will have been during the peak period, yet he'll pay an off-peak fare. Mary enters at 6:55 and also rides for an hour. She'll pay peak fare for a largely off-peak ride. Obviously, this isn't an end-of-the-world type situation, it already happens on the commuter lines. But it's something to be considered.
(Peak hour pricing -- when is peak hour?)
I would have peak hour vary according to the time of day one enters the station, and have it vary in each station according to the time a train leaving that station would be scheduled to cross 34th Street or 5th Avenue.
Therefore, boarding a train at 7:00 in Manhattan might be considered "off peak", since most riders would not have gotten there yet, but would be considered "on-peak" at Brighton Beach because you would arrive in Manhattan at a time when the trains were full. Boarding a train at Brighton Beach at 9:15 might also be considered "off-peak," because by the time you got to Manhattan the trains would be empty, but 9:15 in Manhattan is on-peak.
At all stations beyond the Hub, 125th Street, Queensboro and Downtown Brooklyn, there is no "on-peak" in the afternoon -- since the capacity into Manhattan at that time is enormous, and largely empty.
[If you feel that way, quit using the subway and start using cabs for everything. Living in Manhattan, I'm sure you can afford it. You think that zoned fares are so great because you have a short trip in Manhattan. With zoned fares, you probably think that you could roll back the fare to 50¢ for yourself, while people in the outer portions of Queens and Brooklyn would be paying $3. That's a very selfish attitude. You care about nobody but yourself. Remember, what goes around comes around. Hey, let me tell you something. I live 1300 miles from NY. It wouldn't affect me in the least, but I care about my fellow man. I care if they all of a sudden have to pay double or triple to get around town. I hope your cable company in Manhattan does start charging you by the hour. It would give you a taste of what zoned fares are like. You certainly would be singing a different tune if you lived in Coney Island, or out in Little Neck. I've been reading some of the wierdest things on this BB lately - closing rapid transit lines and replacing them with buses and now zoned fares.]
No comment.
You know,its always the few [those innovative thinkers with there new wave ideas]that always start new trends.FIRST fare zones, next fare by the mile![with the 50 cent surcharge for night service].WHAT will these great minds come up with next? OH,I got one ! $3.50 rental space on station platforms[3 sqare ft personal space]PLUS zoned fares per mile! Hows that for innovation?
You know,its always the few [those innovative thinkers with there new wave ideas]that always start new trends.FIRST fare zones, next fare by the mile![with the 50 cent surcharge for night service].WHAT will these great minds come up with next? OH,I got one ! $3.50 rental space on station platforms[3 sqare ft personal space]PLUS zoned fares per mile! Hows that for innovation?
Yes, and I don't know how many times I read on this BB that the TA monitors it and gets ideas. Some of these SubTalkers don't seem to realize this. New York City has one of the highest cost of living in the country, outside of parts of Claifornia. I already checked out 1 bedroom apartments in Queens. They average $800-$1000 per month. Comparable apartments in the Philadelphia area average $550 per month. In the Detroit area, a comparable apartment goes for $450-$500 per month. People in NYC pay high rents, high taxes, high tolls, a high subway and bus fare. You don't need zoned fares. Its just an underhanded rotten way of raising the fare and giving you the shaft. I don't know how anyone could promote such madness, even if they wind up benefiting by it. Where is their sense of community, of cosmopolitanism?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Boston's MBTA has redesigned its Web site.
But their subway map still doesn't show the Old Colony commuter rail line that goes through Braintree! (sigh)
"Graffitti returning slowly"?!?!? HELLO!!!
In case no one has noticed it never left. Just because they give it a cutesy pie name like "scratchiti" so they can say that their rolling stock is Graffitti free doesn't change the fact that it is still graffitti and the trains still look like shit because of it!
Peace,
Andee
Gents, Ladies
Operation of the last crew worked trains (motor(wo)man + conductor)
is now down to just 4 (four) trains during the Morning commute
and four trains during the evening commute.The system is fast being cleared of surplus 1959/1962 type tube stock to breakers yards and
storage lots.
Although no official date has been set Crew operation is scheduled to end in late January/Very Early February and no railfan tours have yet
been announced. More when it is known.......
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Operation of the last crew worked trains (motor(wo)man + conductor)
is now down to just 4 (four) trains during the Morning commute
and four trains during the evening commute.The system is fast being cleared of surplus 1959/1962 type tube stock to breakers yards and
storage lots.
Although no official date has been set Crew operation is scheduled to end in late January/Very Early February and no railfan tours have yet
been announced. More when it is known.......
Do I understand correctly that 2-person 'Crew' operation is being replaced with 1-person ATO?
Actually the only remaining two-person operation is that on the Northern line, and that only during peak periods when the 59/62 tube stock still sees some service (4 trains total). All the other lines converted to OPTO some time ago.
Don't forget the snazzy new uniforms that the London Underground workers will be wearing. Sportcoats and ties, no less.
Hello,Its my first time posting on this board.Has anyone here ever rode the #1 line after midnight.It is the most plesurable ride i have ever had.For the past 2 years there have been nothing but delays and i love to see all the rats when they discharge all passengers at 137st.The smell of urine is a delight to inhale and there are so many plaincloths police that i never see any.I find it hard to believ that with all this money the M.T.A. has i am still dealing with this.20-30 minute delays every night.If you do the math i am sitting in delays for 3 days a year.Wow did i right all of that.I must really be pissed off.
Over the last couple of days, I've had occasion to ride up and down Brooklyn's 4th Avenue line at rush hour, as far down as 59th Street, on both the local and the express. Given the overall ridership boom, I was surprised to find the cars one-third empty at the height of rush hour. It is quite a contrast with the Brighton, which is PACKED, and the A/C/F and IRT, which are heavily used.
This sets up a dillema for the MTA. The number of trains per hour at rush hour is already low on the West End, 4th Avenue, and Sea Beach lines, so you don't want to cut it more. But thanks to our favorite cracking bridge and due to car shortages, you can't run more trains on the Brighton without cutting service on the 4th Avenue. For example, you could put the M back on the Brighton, but that would leave just 7 trains per hour at rush hour on the West End.
Perhaps if they do get the additional cars, they can use an F express to pull riders off the Brighton.
B trains, however, are packed at rush hour. N, R and M trains are comfortably full. My experience with the Fourth Avenue trains is that they don't go anywhere I want to go. others seem to agree with me since at Pacific Street there is a mass exodus to the IRT lines. After that station, the only thing to look forward to is the screeching crawl through those twisting tunnels. What I would love to see would be a 4th Avenue local-6th Avenue train.
(B trains packed, others comfortably full)
That wasn't my experience. Perhaps it was just an unusually low ridership day, but the B was far from packed, and there were just a few standees on the other lines.
At DeKalb, more people got off and packed onto the already packed Brighton.
Isn't the R train also called the 4th Avenue local?
[Isn't the R train also called the 4th Avenue local?]
Yes.
Thanks Pete. After reading that other message I was getting a little confused. I have to keep on top of things since I'm 3,000 miles away.
If that is the case, then maybe they should run the B as a 4th Avenue Express with the N during rush hour only, and leave the rest of 4th Avenue local to the M and R.
As for the Brighton, it seems strange that the local goes farther than the express. It seems more normal, as in Queens Blvd, or the A and C lines, that for a terminus outside the city limits, the local should terminate before the express. So that would mean that the D would terminate at Brighton Beach, and the Q would terminate at Coney Island.
They used to do it like that, but then you would have to cross the D local over the Q express tracks to get from the Coney Island-bound side back to the Manhattan-bound side. This way, the Q can terminate at Brighton Beach and use the crossover there to change directions, while the D continues to CI and crosses over there without interfering with the Q.
They used to have the same problem at Kings Highway on the F when the rush hour expresses ran to CI and some of the locals terminated there. No Brooklyn express service at all on the F solved that problem.
(Terminate local closer than express)
True, but running both trains so far out costs the TA some cars, which are mostly empty. In a less defeatist era, when public works could be built quickly for a reasonable cost, one might have proposed to ramp the local tracks down south of Kings Highway, to install a grade separate crossover. That way, the express could cover the outermost eight stops (bypassing Newkirk and Church) while the local covered the innermost seven stops before the lines merged.
That's the way the IND was built. You could have F locals and expresses without the crossover problem, as long as the locals turned at Church.
[ They used to do it like that ... ]
Only very briefly in 1967-68. Both before and after that, the Brighton line expresses terminated at Brighton Beach and the locals ran through to Coney Island. The only exceptions to this were the "sunny summer weekend" Franklin Ave. trains which ran express to Coney Island, and the Bankers Specials, which starting in the late 1950s ran via the local tracks from Coney Island to Kings Highway, then express the rest of the way (and reverse in the evening).
-- Ed Sachs
Why not run both express and local all the way to Stillwell?
NYC TRANSIT
Too much traffic going into/out of Stillwell Ave.
so reduce the time that Brighton trains are in the terminal to keep the flow moving. We're just talking about the 2 Brighton tracks, nothing else. All the other lines go through to Stillwell. Why not the Brighton Express? Having the local go to Stillwell, while the Express terminates at Brighton Beach is not exactly serving the riding public very well. It forces people to take a local a few stations and switch for an express. That is like running the G to 179th St. and the F to Continental Ave.
NYC TRANSIT
I do think it would be better for the express trains to go all the way to Stillwell Ave. However, the way it's designed, it's really not possible. The only way I could think of this happening is some sort of flying junction constructed between Brighton Beach and Seepshead Bay, allowing locals and express to switch tracks without crossing at grade. But is it really necessary? What's the big deal with x-ferring at Sheepshead Bay between express & local?
What's the big deal with x-ferring at Sheepshead Bay between express & local?
The wait, if you just miss the express. BTW, why Sheepshead Bay? Wouldn't it be easier if there was a Q on the NB track sitting there at Brighton Beach?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
True, until you realize that the train on the southbound track was the next train scheduled to leave and your left sitting there, watching it leave. At Sheepshead Bay, you're guaranteed that the next express will be on the proper track.
As stated before you can reduce time at Stillwell on the D/Q, by having a Operator and conductor standing by to board the trains as they come in to the Station. Give maybe 2 minutes to clear the train, the new crew leaves the station. You will not really need any switching problem at Brighton Beach. Remember as the trains go East from West 8th, the Express can go on to the Express Track and the Local to the Local Track. so nothing would be lost. I have seen turn around time at Stillwell on the F at less then 90 seconds. Why can t it be done on the Brighton.
You need 2 pockets for the Q at Brighton, you need 2 pockets for the D at Stillwell. Your proposal is for "in & out" at Stillwell doesn't work! Trains need layover time. If a train comes in late, it will most likely leave late as well since you are giving it virtually no layover time! With your proposal with the D on one track and the Q on the other, the dispatcher can't go "in & out" if a there is a b/o train or if it needs special attention by the car inspector for example. Now you have back to back D's or Q's with an cancelled train, and a probable backup waiting to get into the terminal. Also, the cars need to stay at their terminals a while so they can be swept & mopped. Finally, there would be congestion due to layups & putins. It has been done this way for a long, long, time. I'm sure the schedulemakers have considered this. In order to have efficient operations, all lines need 2 track terminals. The lines that don't (B at 145 & Bedford Park for example) perform poorly since there is short layover time. A 5 minute + late arrival = a late departing train. Anytime you see done what you see done on the F: it happens on everyline with a late arrival: late arrival, hopefully leave on schedule.
The trouble with the Brighton line can't really be fixed with improved Culver Service and can't be fixed with improved D/Q train movements. The problem is obvious once you look at the subway map (even though not to scale): The area east of the Brighton (below, say Ave. H, towards Canarsie) has no nearby subway service, as does the area west (towards MacDonald Ave.) The bulk of Brighton ridership has to be coming from that area (the distance between the D/Q and F is only about 15 short blocks, and even the F south of Church Ave. has nearby lines - B, N, as well as the D/Q which is why F ridership south of Church is probably not high).
You can see from the map that the two IRT lines also border that unserved area, which is one reason why they also have high ridership. The only way to really solve the problem is for the IRT Nostrand line to be extended, and the IRT Utica Ave. line built, as proposed for a bond issue in the 1950's, as I recollect (was it for $500 million of 1950's dollars?). The bond issue passed (it also called for improved BMT service) and the only thing I recollect happening was the BMT DeKalb Ave. track reconstruction on both sides of the station. The IRT improvements were never made (where did the rest of the money go?)
I'm sure new housing and more people living in the area, since then, added yet more riders from that underserved area to the D/Q and IRT lines. Those unbuilt 1950's improvements would have dramatically reduced or eliminated D/Q overcrowding, and improved transit access in that unserved area. With the Franklin Ave. junction also rebuilt, to better handle train movements there, the problem would be have been satisfactorily solved, I think.
Considering the people who would have gained even only by an improved Franklin Ave. junction, it's a shame that money was spent on the rebuilding of the Franklin Ave. shuttle. To those say it was needed, I ask: what's the ridership? Bus service would suffice (it only handles two-car trains anyway). IRT/BMT transfers could be made at Atlantic Ave. Regarding IND/BMT transfers, a corridor connection in downtown Brooklyn, where lines cross each other, would have been much cheaper, I think (and even if there were none built, subway lines in lower Manhattan are close to each other so access to buildings would only be a short walk away from any of them, and there are transfer points already in mid-town and upper Manhattan.
What's really needed are the improvements that should have been built back in the 1950's. The best way to resolve the problem? Pressure the politicians to pay attention to this need, as was done re: the Franklin shuttle. There are many more voters in the area that would benefit from these improvements.
Mike Rothenberg
Considering the people who would have gained even only by an improved Franklin Ave. junction, it's a shame that money was spent on the rebuilding of the Franklin Ave. shuttle. To those say it was needed, I ask: what's the ridership? Bus service would suffice (it only handles two-car trains anyway).
Anytime you talk about replacing rapid transit service with bus service, you're giving the TA the inroads to cut further or totally eliminate service. To say that it is unwise is a gross understatement. So many people on this forum seem to be advocating closing rapid transit lines with bus replacement. That is a huge step backwards. There are cities that provide only bus service that wish they had a rapid transit system. Here, we have one, and so many people on this forum are bus-happy.
BIG MISTAKE!
If you bus-happy people don't like rapid transit, go to a city where there is only bus service. You will change your tune real fast. I was born and raised in New York City. I live in the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale area. I depend on my car 100%. Bus service is the absoulte worst. It is near impossible to get around without a car here. during the day, off rush hour, buses run every hour. Routes are sparse and don't cover much area. Be thankful for your transit system and don't complain about a 20 minute wait when you miss a train.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Rogers Avenue Interlocking serves a lot more people than the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. The money would be better spent there. It would also cost a lot less money to build a more convenient, moving walkway between the Atlantic Avenue complex and Lafayette Street. The Shuttle should have been allowed to rot in it's pre-reconstructory position. Some people here even cry for the destruction of some canopies and stairways, so why waste money replacing them on an otherwise useless line?
Also, abandoning also costs money. It would make more sense to do a brief patch-up of the shuttle so it's in no risk of collapsing anf then letting it be.
The Shuttle should have been allowed to rot in it's pre-reconstructory position. Some people here even cry for the destruction of some canopies and stairways, so why waste money replacing them on an otherwise useless line?
I've heard this from other SubTalkers - that the TA received alot of community pressure to keep the Shuttle. Hey, I don't know about you, but I'm glad they kept it. I think NYC has lost enough of its rapid transit to politics. Everybody should try to preserve whatever is left, no matter how insignificant a line may seem. Once its gone, its gone for good and can't be brought back. With the Manny B problems, don't be surprised if the Franklin Shuttle becomes a very important link, down the road.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Getting back to the lack of subway service to East Flatbush, Marine Park, Flatlands, etc., obviously that is not something we are likely to see unless a LOT of things change and a LOT of other things happen first. However....
The current plan is to hook up to the IRT. But the IRT is pretty crowded as it is, and doesn't seem to have room for more trains. With better signals and a better turn around, however, the 14th St-Eastern Line does have room for more trains.
Maybe if the Utica Ave line is ever built, it should be extended up through the ghost connection to the A at Fulton, with a connection to the 3/4 at Eastern Parkway, up Broadway and Bushwick, and into the 14th St -- Eastern line in the vicinity of Bushwick Terminal (Montrose Ave). That way, you get more trains on the inner part of the L, and you might get some Midtown destined passengers off the IRT/BMT/IND thorugh Downtown.
Jamming more people onto the already crowded L line isn't gonna work. What about building a subway under Flatlands ave from Kings Plaza north to the Rockaway Blvd. terminal on the L?
The soil under flatlands ave is too wet and soft
So was the soil under the English Channel, but the Chunnel was built. I don't see why it cannot be done.
Not only does Flatlands Avenue not go anywhere near Kings Plaza, it's Rockaway PARKWAY.
The Chunnel was bored through chalklike material, which is relatively firm.
Most of south eastern Brooklyn (usually any place south of Kings Highway) is composed of swampy marshlands that were landfilled 50-60 years ago. The soil would be unsuitable for subway tunneling. An 'el' structure would be the only alternative, and to be honest, the homeowners in the areas the line would be running (down Flatlands Ave., I presume) would not want the noise and lowering of property values that an elevated structure would likely bring.
BTW, Flatlands Ave. begins at Flatbush Ave. near Kings Highway -- almost 2 miles north of Kings Plaza.
Doug aka BMTman
BTW, Flatlands Ave. begins at Flatbush Ave. near Kings Highway -- almost 2 miles north of Kings Plaza.
It starts at East 34th Street about 2 blocks from Kings Highway; Ave N makes a 45 degree turn to the left and becomes Flatlands Ave. I used to live at Flatlands Ave & East 35th St.
--Mark
OOOPs! Thanks for the refinement there, Mark.
Doug aka BMTman
Cut and cover will work.
There'd have to be some serious fortifying of the cut to make it withstand the muck of the geology over there (landfill over swamps).
I would hazard a guess that any stations that were built along a Flatlands subway route would have seepage problems.
Doug aka BMTman
Many current subway lines also have seepage problems. What was that whole Lenox Line reconstruction all about?
I'm glad the shuttle still exists. But too much money was spent on it. And it would be of much use should the Manny Bridge close completely, becuase of the single track and short trains. If the money was going to get spent, the shuttle should have been 2 tracks it's entire route and the platforms built MUCH longer. At least then the expenditure could be explained as an investment in case the bridge collapses and the x-fer at Fulton St. is needed....badly.
I'm glad the shuttle still exists. But too much money was spent on it. And it would be of much use should the Manny Bridge close completely, becuase of the single track and short trains. If the money was going to get spent, the shuttle should have been 2 tracks it's entire route and the platforms built MUCH longer. At least then the expenditure could be explained as an investment in case the bridge collapses and the x-fer at Fulton St. is needed....badly.
If the Manny B is ever deemed unusable for trains altogether, what do you want to bet you will quickly see 2 tracks and lengthened platforms on the Shuttle. Practicality would then dictate thru Franklin-Brighton service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There was once a proposal, in 1940, where the original BMT Brighton Line along Franklin Ave would have been extended to Lafayette Avenue to form a connection with the IND’s Crosstown Line.
--Mark
Yes, a spectacular connection between two worthless trains that don't go into Manhattan. Gotta wonder what the IND planners were smoking when they came up with that one.
THANK YOU, BMTLines!
And apparently Mr. Rothenberg does not realize that the New Franklin Avenue Shuttle was actually IMPROVED with the rebuilding because there is now a convenient transfer to the IRT Franklin Ave. station via the walkway at Botanic Garden platform. The New Franklin Ave. Shuttle ties together all three original "divisions" BMT, IRT, and IND. I think it was worth rebuilding. My only disappointment with the line is that not much of the original structure (north of Eastern Parkway) was kept.
Again, thanks for speaking for so many of us here, BMTLines!
Doug aka BMTman
The only mistake was making it a single track. If the equipment
goes out of service you're out of luck.
THANK YOU, BMTLines!
And apparently Mr. Rothenberg does not realize that the New Franklin Avenue Shuttle was actually IMPROVED with the rebuilding because there is now a convenient transfer to the IRT Franklin Ave. station via the walkway at Botanic Garden platform. The New Franklin Ave. Shuttle ties together all three original "divisions" BMT, IRT, and IND. I think it was worth rebuilding. My only disappointment with the line is that not much of the original structure (north of Eastern Parkway) was kept.
Again, thanks for speaking for so many of us here, BMTLines!
Doug aka BMTman
You're quite welcome Doug aka BMTman. I may have left the city but the city hasn't left me. I may live 1300 miles away, but I still consider myself a New Yorker. I am a hard-core railfan and a staunch advocate of mass transit. It broils me everytime I read somebody's post about wanting to close a rapid transit line and replace it with buses. hasn't anyone learned from the Myrtle Ave. and Third Ave. Els? I'll bet alot of people along the Myrtle Ave. El praised the TA for demolishing the "antiquated" structure and getting rid of the "antiquated rattletraps" (the Q's). After all, a nice modern bus with A/C! In the seventies, most buses ran with the windows open. The A/C didn't work. Typically, the buses were full of garbage and roach-infested. I'll bet it didn't take long for those people who praised the end of El service to look back in retrospect, sorry, wishing they had their El back. It really stinks when you had a train line and its gone. Now you have to take a bus to the subway. Like I said, abandoning rapid transit lines is a BIG MISTAKE! Its stupid, idiotic, asinine, dumb, dumb, dumb! Dumb-dee-dumb-dumb! Maybe some people who post here are too young to look back on the abandonment of Third and Myrtle and see how "great" bus replacement of rapid transit is. Remember, once its gone, its gone! All this talk about a Second Ave. Subway? As Ralph Kramden used to say - Har-dee Har-Harr! Har-dee Har-Harr! Once its gone, its gone.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Any advantage the new shuttle brings is negated by the moronic way the rehab was done. The single track and short stations means it would be useless as a conduit for Brighton line passangers to transfer to other trains should the bridge collapse/rust/get blown up/etc. It should have either been done right, or closed permanently. The makeshift layout of today's shuttle was the worst of both worlds.
I agree. As I posted earlier I did not appreciate the rebuilding that was done north of Eastern Parkway (where the line becomes elevated). Just before Park Place the Shuttle becomes single-tracked which was a stupid cost-cutting measure. Remember that the MTA wasn't interested in saving the line originally, so they of course weren't 100% behind doing it RIGHT.
At least the line is there to provide somewhat of an alternative when the Manny B. goes out of commission.
Doug aka BMTman
At least the line is there to provide somewhat of an alternative when the Manny B. goes out of commission.
If the Manny B goes out of commission, I believe the TA would be compelled to very speedily double-track the line and lengthen the stations. Unfortunately, right now, what is there is a single-track NYC version of Philadelphia's Norristown Line.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Unfortunatly, the 150' trains couldn't handle the crush ofpeople that would need this line should the bridge get knocked out. That's really the only reason you could justify spending $70 million on this insignificant little line.
Is it just me or do I notice some cynicism in your postings?
Yup. A totally new, beautiful Franlin Shuttle which almost nobody rides, and which would be all but worthless should the Manhattan Bridge collapse. Meanwhile, the city has still not constructed ANY part of the badly needed Second Ave. line. You can't help but be cynical ...
Why do they even terminate the B at 145th? Isn't 168th a natural terminal for the CPW local? I'm sure the C line isn't taking ALL the caacity up there ...
who has the lowest traffic into stillwell B D F N
Actually, up until a year and a half ago, I was commutiing To the Helmsley bldg. in Manhattan. Starting at 17th St. I would basically have three options:
I could get on any local and get off at Pacific St and Get the B to Rockefeller center. The R would nicely full, the M would have a few open seats. I could always take the R sraight to Union Square, with a seat guaranteed after Pacific St. Id change at Union Square for the 4 or 5 one stap to 42. In all honesty, that was the about the same time as the next option, but guaranteed a seat.
On the other hand, I could change at Pacific from the M or R to the 4 or 5. There was practically no headway, never a wait. BUT THE TRAINS WERE OBSCENELY PACKED. With the 4 or 5 flying in Manhattan. Same time as above.
Or change at Pacific or Dekalkb for the D, B, or Q and get off at Rockerfeler Plaza. All 3 very packed, but with a ride over the Manhattan Bridge. Longest of the three.
Which one would you take?
People prefer the Brighton line because it is much faster than the N or B to Coney Island. Perhaps there should be an F express, or a Sea Beach express.
Then again I've seen it crowded on the BMT 4th avenue line, perhaps there are alot of people sick and staying home (there's a bad virus going around).
When I was on the subways it seemed less crowded at rush hour this week. Even Penn wasn't too bad.
That's a myth. The B is the fastest way to get from Atlantic/Pacific to Coney Island. All the time saved by a Brighton express is lost when you have to get off and wait for a local at Sheepshead Bay.
I hate to admit it, but the B is the fastest way into the City from Coney Island, but only by 4 minutes. Now if they ran the Brighton Exp to Coney Island that would be quicker. Use 1 Stillwell platform for the local, 1 for the express. switch at Ocean Parkway.
Where were you riding? South of Dekalb the N and R are packed during the rush. The M never seems to be quite full at any time. r riders generally transfer to the N at 59th if they want to get to Pacific,and they transfer at either 36th, Pacific or Dekalb for B/D/Q trains. Only those needing acces directly to lower Manhattan use the N or R past Dekalb. If your a Sea Beach rider and you want Union Sq, 34th St/Herald Sq or Times SQ, you're almost forced to transfer to other lines in Brooklyn, even though the N might take you directly to these stations. If the @#$%! bridge was ever to resume 4 track service, it would decrease overcrowding on all the IRT lines coming in from Brooklyn, not to mention the crowding on the B and D.
Maybe it's time that Nassau St service was cut back to Broad Street at all times. This line has very limited appeal to riders and it's capacity could be better served by more N and R trains.
Better yet -- Cut back the M to Broad Street and restore T service to Broadway.... Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Maybe it's time that Nassau St service was cut back to Broad Street at all times. This line has very limited appeal to riders and it's capacity could be better served by more N and R trains."
Thanks ChrisR.
N Broadway Express
Two recent acts of total stupidity have renewed my faith in the future - in that I have not seen it all yet.
Incident #1: Yesterday at about 2:15 PM I was at the 205th St station on my beloved D line. A female cleaner approached her supervisor and told him that she could not clean the car to which she was assigned. She then pointed into the car. I boarded with the supervisor and observed a gentleman with his trousers down (not mearly open), urinating into his coffee cup. This was done in full view of the 6 or so people who were in that car. I ordered the gentleman off the train and with the assistance of a NYPD trainee, had the gentleman forcably ejected from the system. His final words to the officer were that he wanted me charged with racism.....
Incident #2: I was returning from the dentist at about 11:25 this AM. I was driving along Union Blvd. in West Islip which parallels the LIRR Montauk Branch. about a block east of the footbridge that spans the tracks, I saw a woman struggling to cross the tracks with her child in a stroller. The wheels were continually becoming the lodged in the ballast. I also saw the headlight of an approaching train about a mile away from the east. I pulled over to assist her but she dragged the stroller over the east-bound track and into the clear before I could get out of the car. Had a cop been around, I wonder if she could have been charged with child endangerment........
The first one sounds like a typical day on the D train to me although stuff like that doesn't usually happen at 205th.
People do stupid things like that everywhere. The difference -- in New York, when you call them on it, they don't exactly apologise.
The other day at the 7th Ave stop on the F, the woman in front of me entering the turnstile had her monthly pass run out. So she took out her replacement and went through the (highwheel) turnstile, after DROPPING THE OLD ONE ON THE GROUND. "Dropping that there wasn't very nice" I said. She starts berating me and the TA -- "Why isn't there a wastebasket there" she said. She became even more infuriated when I pointed out that hers was the only one on the floor.
I said to the other people there "got to let the SOBs know someone is watching them." Next time, she'll look around to make sure no one is looking, THEN drop the card on the floor.
I am not condoning action #1. I do remember a time when there were safe, working public conveniences in every subway and elevated station. I believe the management that removed these facilities deserves at least an honorable mention, if a stupidity award is given in this category.
205th Street has a working, albiet not modern, facility on the mezzanine. The person is a disfunctional, anti-social miscreant. Had it been a member of my family and not an employee, he might have not have made out so well.
Again, let me say that I do not condone or approve this person's action.
However, my point was one of predictable availability of public conveniences. One in ten or twenty stations is not reasonable. Working public conveniences in every station is a civilizing influence.
Why can the TA not publish a list of open facilities? At least this way one can find their way there and use the facilities. Anyone who is caught relieving themselves at a dark corner of a station without public facilities should not be punished by the TA, THEY should be the ones SUING THE TA! Although this is a different situation than the one mentioned.
Until about 3 weeks ago there were Men's and Women's bathrooms at the Broadway/East New York junction on the street level by the A/C line connections. Due to some renovations at the station complex they have been closed (no indications when they will be reopened/rebuilt).
Doug aka BMTman
[Until about 3 weeks ago there were Men's and Women's bathrooms at the Broadway/East New York junction on the street level by
the A/C line connections. Due to some renovations at the station complex they have been closed (no indications when they will be
reopened/rebuilt). ]
Want to start a pool as to when these bathrooms are returned to service? Might I suggest a date tied to the completion of the Manhattan Brige repairs? :-)
Probably the next Millennium!
Naw, I don't think these bathrooms will be ready in a year.
What might they be renovating there at Broadway-East NY? Not a very attractive station at all. Perhaps they'll do something about that ugly shade of blue wall tile they have there - make it match Liberty/Van Siclen/Shepherd. They would only have to do the center part over, the edges are the right (almost) color. It would brighten up a dreary place. New platform surface needed too. Make the lighting like that at Utica too. OH - Don't forget to rehab the escalators.
Wayne
Maybe they could put new "facilities" where the old Canarsie cross under was. They have the room now!!!
More likely they'll use whatever leftover room to try and install elevators since the big Bway/East New York complex has NO handicapped access facilities and sorely needs one.
Doug aka BMTman
Agreed. Finding facilities in the subway system is NOT easy. There SHOULD be more of them - there's one catch though. How do you keep vagrants (I don't want to refer to them as bums) and homeless people from taking up residence inside them, as I have seen on some occasions. You'd have to post a matron or guard at each one, something the cost-conscious NYCT probably wouldn't agree to.
Wayne
At least he wasn't pissing on the floor of the car....
-Hank :)
Although I'm remaining neutral and not making any comment pro or con I just want to let the readers know that the LIRR in W.Islip is not electrified, there is no third rail.
Picking up the idea of the lack of facilities, remember there would be pay toilets in the city by now if Rudy didn't have a four year process to pick a franchisee than kill it at the end.
The other day, I decide to walk through Prospect Park to the IRT on the way into work. Suddenly, the morning coffee decided it wanted to come out, and work seemed a long way away. What to do? I briefly considered going behind a tree, even though that can get you a trip to Rikers Island these days, but I looked and saw that with no leaves and the park full of dog walkers and joggers there was no way that could work.
Fortunately, as a result of the fireworks last weekend, there were still a few Port-O-Johns standing at Grand Army Plaza.
If the pay toilet kiosks had been approved, there would probably have been one in that vicinity -- permanently.
I heard it was also hung up because the city had to go through something like 50 agencies to get each one approved.
...Or pissing on the third rail.
On more than one occasion I've observed skells standing between cars on the L here in Chicago and taking a leak off to the side while the train is roaring along the tracks.
Somehow by the grace of God they manage to avoid hitting the third rail with their urine stream, or falling down between the cars when the train makes a sudden movement.
Actually, there was a case a few years ago when some guy was staggering home from a party, climbed over a fence on the way, and decided to heed nature's call on the third rail of the Skokie Swift line. His next-of-kin sued the CTA because the "High Voltage - Keep out" signs on the fence weren't bilingual. Of course, they collected.
Lawyers and third rails... Difficult not to see the creative potential in that combo after hearing about a story like that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
"Actually, there was a case a few years ago when some guy was staggering home from a party, climbed over a fence on the way, and decided to heed nature's call on the third rail of the Skokie Swift line. His next-of-kin sued the CTA because the 'High Voltage -
Keep out' signs on the fence weren't bilingual. Of course, they collected."
Close, very close. It was the Ravenswood (Brown) line where it runs at ground level in an alley. (The Yellow line has no grade crossings on its third-rail portion, only on the segment of the line with catenary.) Yes, the man was drunk as a lord coming home late at night from a party, and he entered onto the line to relieve himself -- IIRC, he was found with his zipper open and burn marks on the end of his exposed, um, organ. But he didn't hop the fence, he entered onto the line where it crosses a street and is completely open to passersby.
So the widow *did* win her suit because the warning signs were solely in English. (Have you seen CTA's replacement warning signs with the pictogram of a man leaping backward as lightning flashes out of the third rail?) But she *also* won because CTA did nothing to stop people from going onto the line where it crosses streets. It was a drunk man this time, but it could be a little kid the next time. CTA argued that gates across the right of way, open for trains but otherwise closed, were too expensive. However, they have them on the two grade crossings of the Evanston (Purple) line in Wilmette. I guess that, at least to CTA, a kid's (or drunk man's) life is worth more in tony Wilmette than in immigrant Albany Park (or blue-collar Cicero and Berwyn: the Blue line, Cermak Branch, is the only other portion of the CTA system with at-grade third rail).
Maybe the guy's widow still should have lost (the jury DID find that the man was partially responsible for his own death). But the case is simply not as cut-and-dried as it first seems. A brief summary and explanation of the case (unfortunately, I can't link to the court decision itself, since Illinois Supreme Court cases online don't go back as far as 1992) is at:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/death/peeing_on_third_rail.html
After reading that newsgroup url you posted I take it the third rail was unprotected, that it looked just like the 2 running rails with no wood covering. If that's the case I think the CTA should have been held liable since it was a grade crossing. But not for the language part.
You are correct in that the third rail is unprotected, as it is throughout the entire CTA system. However, the end of the third rail is a good 6-8 feet away from the sidewalk, with about 5 feet of the so-called "cattle boards" between the sidewalk and the third rail, along with large signs warning people to stay off the tracks. It's not impossible for a pedestrian to get near the third rail, but the cattle boards make it very difficult.
Regardless, there is no way to get around the fact that the guy's death is a direct result of his own stupidity. It's no different than if he had gotten behind the wheel of a car while drunk and smashed into a tree at 60 MPH. The only difference is that the CTA makes a much more convenient target for a lawsuit.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Does it look just like a running rail?
Not at all. It's raised by a considerable distance and located off to the side. Very similar to the third rail on the NYC subway system, minus the protective board on top.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I must say, I love that url!!!
Question about Incident #1, what happened to the train or car after the incident?
Nothing happened to the car. The person urinated in a cup - not on the floor. The train was cleaned and left on schedule.
Nothing happened to the car. The person urinated in a cup - not on the floor. The train was cleaned and left on schedule.
Ok, so I guess it goes without saying that he was holding the cup in his hand, while using his other hand for, um, shooting straight. Good thing the train wasn't moving at the time, lest he loose balance and fall over while discharging. Now that's a mess I wouldn't want to clean up.
When I first read the story I somehow assumed that the cup was on the floor and he was taking a leak into it... I was about to give the guy high marks for accuracy if he was able to pull a stunt like that and not get any splatter on the floor. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Well, at least he was considerate enough to not piss on the floor or seats.
[Incident #1: Yesterday at about 2:15 PM I was at the 205th St station on my beloved D line. A female cleaner approached her supervisor and told him that she could not clean the car to which she was assigned. She then pointed into the car. I boarded with the supervisor and observed a gentleman with his trousers down (not mearly open), urinating into his coffee cup. This was done in full view of the 6 or so people who were in that car. I ordered the gentleman off the train and with the assistance of a NYPD trainee, had the gentleman forcably ejected from the system. His final words to the officer were that he wanted me charged with racism.....]
Charged with racism. What a laugh. The skell should thank his lucky stars that he was merely ejected from the system and not charged with indecent exposure. In addition to whatever criminal penalties would be imposed, I believe a conviction for that offense may require registration as a sex offender.
Incident #2: I was returning from the dentist at about 11:25 this AM. [I was driving along Union Blvd. in West Islip which parallels the LIRR Montauk Branch. about a block east of the footbridge that
spans the tracks, I saw a woman struggling to cross the tracks with her child in a stroller. The wheels were continually becoming the lodged in the ballast. I also saw the headlight of an approaching train about a mile away from the east. I pulled over to assist her but she dragged the stroller over the east-bound track and into the clear before I could get out of the car. Had a cop been around, I
wonder if she could have been charged with child endangerment........]
Just think, if the woman and the child had been hit by the train (which of course could not possibly have stopped in time), their estate would have won a multi-million $$ judgment against the LIRR.
BTW: The train was not a scheduled LIRR consist. It was a NY&A freight, two GP-38s around a boxcar and a tank car.
Going to the central branch I would presume. Boning Bros.
get's cars from a facing point switch off a siding and
then a second customer gets a car from a trailing point.
Best way to do it is wth two engines.
Unless this was the Montauk branch. Was it a Tuesday? Then
it's the RS30 going to Bridgehampton with a tank car of
LPG. The box car was the legally required spacer between
HazMat and occupied engines. Sandwiched between the geeps
so the return trip can be done without having the engine
running in reverse and not needing to go all the way to MY
to wye theengines. Saves a lot of time for a crew that
almost always times out because of the long distances at
only 45 MPH.
#1: Perhaps the low-life was just getting a urine sample ready to deliver to his supervisor to quench his thirst ;-)
#2: Why did the woman with a stroller cross the railroad? Because she was a complete idiot.
Hey Steve,was the supervisor my buddy MS-1 Riggy? I bet he wishes he didn't pick out of East NY.
MS-I Riggy was not the supervisor on duty. The regulas Supervisor was. Riggy was there on the weekends but with the impending promotion of his predecessor, Riggy is moving up with better RDOs. Bet he's glad he left ENY.
(Incident #1: Yesterday at about 2:15 PM I was at the 205th St station on my beloved D line. A female cleaner approached her supervisor and told him that she could not clean the car to which she was assigned. She then pointed into the car. I boarded with the supervisor and observed a gentleman with his trousers down (not mearly open), urinating into his coffee cup. This was done in full view of the 6 or so people who were in that car. I ordered the gentleman off the train and with the assistance of a NYPD trainee, had the gentleman forcably ejected from the system. His final words to the officer were that he wanted me charged with racism.....)
This must have been the same slob that I saw urinating on the seats while standing in the first car of a downtown "D" train at Bedford Park this morning on my way to work at 0330. Also in full view of all on the car.
Incredible,
Andee
Well, about 5 years ago on an E train at W4th, a "skell" got on the train, dropped his pants, and used one of the seats as a toilet. And he did #2, not #1. With no hole in the seat, you can imagine what happened. Sorry to gross you all out.
On the light rail line I work on in Stockholm, the same thing happened this past Saturday (New Year's Day). Plus the guy pissed in the doorwell (the steps where the door is).
I still remember, from my first months in Stockholm, the shock of standing on a street corner downtown at about six p.m. on a Friday, and seeing a man standing across the street with his fly open, peeing into the gutter. Facing the street.
One of the reasons they quit running all-night service on weekends on the subway here, in 1997, was that too many men (generally drunk) were climbing down onto the tracks to do #1, and getting hit by trains.
-- Tim
I saw at least 6 people pissing in the streets of London over the past week, and I'm not including all of the people that I saw doing their business on New Year's. Even women too! It brought a whole new understanding to the derivation of the British term, "pissed".
All this gross stuff makes me wonder how much bacteria and viruses are on subway trains. After my railfanning twice this week I came down with a nasty stomach virus that was so bad I had to pay a visit to the emergency room.
The 7X train I took had a bum that smelled like vomit. After my recent bout with the stomach virus (I'm still recovering) it'll make me think twice about looking out the front window if a smelly bum or sick person is sitting near there.
I wonder how much viruses and bacteria are in the trains. I remember hearing something about how much germs get stuck in the ventilation systems. And ventilation is terrible in the Redbirds.
The FLU is rampant these days. While moving up in a #7 train Saturday I entered a car where some poor person had just lost their lunch. I got out of there quick.
Wayne
not on the number # 7 !!!!!!! thats my favorite train !!!!!!
It can (and usually does) happen anywhere, unfortunately. I am sure they got the sawdust out when they got to Times Square.
Wayne
I thought Marta was your favorite line.
Think you meant that one for Mr. Willie, Sarge. Anyway, for the record, my home away from home isn't MARTA (see Mr. Train Control on that one) - it's WMATA - Washington DC.
Wayne
Oh no, not again. Deja vu all over again, eh?
Well, sort of. The #7 train on Saturday wasn't that crowded, and the problem car still had a few dozen people still in it (oblivious to the mess). Stuff like that kind of unnerves me. I get away from it as fast as I can. Back in '73, trapped in the grip of humanity aboard the careening R-6-2 #1277, I had absolutely nowhere to go. Fortunately (for me, at least) I was near the head end of the car, the accident happened near the rear.
Wayne
While I've never gotten sick as a direct result from railfanning, you bring up a good point.
There have been several posts speculating on where the R-16's were first put into service. They made their debut on the BMT Jamaica Line.
In the fall of 1954, several trains of R-10's went into service on the BMT Jamaica Line to familiarize BMT crews with their workings. In January of 1955 the first train of R-16's went into service on the same line. The trains arrived on a regular basis, but always made up in the same 10 number series, i.e. a new train would have cars numbered 6421,6425,6420,6424,6427,6429,6426 & 6428. While within the same ten number series, none of the trains were ever in perfect numerical order. The 6400's were delivered first, and upon completion the 6300's started to arrive. It seemed that the first car delivered was 6400 and the last car delivered was 6399. There must have been 50 or 60 cars delivered before they started to mix the cars together and we might see a train with cars numbered 6407,6435,6449,6424,6400,6413,6417 & 6428.
In the early weeks it seemed that the R-16's did not run at night, but before long Jamaica service was being provided by trains of Standards, R-10's and R-16's. As delivery progressed, the Standards slowly disappeared, but they never disappeared completely.
I lived 80 feet from the el and worked in the bank on the corner of Fulton and Crescent. I had a co-worker who was even more of a transit fan than I was. If I missed a new train of R-16's, he didn't, and would tell me about it much to the chagrin of our head teller.
Interesting facts about the R-16
1) They were delivered with IND signage, but were rapidly changed.
2) Publicity pictures of car 6400 with given to the news media, showing the car with IND signage. I still have one of these 8 x 10's in my scrapbook.
3) I rode in 6407 the day after I first saw it in the first train, and if I was not riding in a brand new car, I sure was fooled.
4) The first 20 R-16's were delivered without standee poles, but were retrofitted later.
5) All of the R-10's on the BMT were numbered in the 3300 series. They continued to serve, even after the R-16 order was complete.
6) I have never been able to understand why the 6400's were all delivered before the 6300's.
As delivery progressed, the Standards slowly disappeared, but they never disappeared completely.
I first rode the Jamaica Line early in 1957--prob. February. In my memory Jamaica was nothing but R16s, with the rare exception of extreme weather, especially snow, when I might get a Standard or two.
I occasionally saw R16s on Canarsie, rarely on the Broadway Short Line.
Paul....If I recall prior to Chrystie St., the Broadway-Brooklyn Line (aka Broadway Short Line) was exclusively serviced by R-16's..running from Canal St. to Atlantic Ave., with some trains continuing on to Rockaway Pky. and Crescent St. The line ran rush-hours only. We're talking the early-to-mid-60's.
Carl M.
I think it may have been right here in SubTalk, but someone stated the reason the 6400's were delivered before the 6300's was that the 6300's were Westinghouse cars and the 6400's were GE, and there was a strike at Westinghouse which delayed production.
The same strike that ALMOST delayed the opening of the Rockaway service, right?
The same strike that ALMOST delayed the opening of the Rockaway service, right?
That's right. Also part of the reason, I think, that the R-16s weren't put into use on IND lines, even though they came equipped that way. R-16s were supposed to ply the then-new Rockaway Division, but did so only on opening day because of the Westinghouse strike. Even the R-10s couldn't run there as a result - service started with the R-1/9s with speed restrictions.
Some of the electrical equipment was borrowed from the Dyre Ave line.
--Mark
One wonders if the performance record of the R16 would have not been as dismal as it was had they been put onto a more favored IND line, and not the bottom of the barrel (BMT Eastern Division) ...
I doubt that-I had an uncle that used to say," A piece of s--- is a piece of s---, no matter where you do it".....
But were they a "piece of sh_t"? Perhaps their years of neglect turned them into sh_t.
In Ed Davis' book,THEY MOVED THE MILLIONS; he says (and he was a motorman for many years), that even when new they had to pull them off the Broadway el when it snowed, and run the old stand-by standards in their place....But yet, the R-17s, which are just scaled down 16s, ran fine for years..go figure....
PLEASE! Make a distinction between poorly running GE cars and the better run Westinghouse ones. The GE's came and gave the WE cars a bad name. They never were that bad as the GE's hence their final days as work motors. If they were as bad then they wouldn't have been used.
The
me
Folks--
In case you folks haven't see this, C service will be out for a whole month. The details are under .
Does anyone ever remember of a long-term outage of a whole line? We're not talking about lines that went away and came back, or lines that were renamed. I'm thinking of a long-term service outage over an ENTIRE line. (So Manhattan Bridge outages don't count.)
Kind regards,
Michael
So what train will operate as the 8th Ave Local and the Fulton St. Local? Could it be that the E will take over through Brooklyn... (I don't think so)
Frank D
This probably has to due with the closing of WTC Station. My guess is that the B runs up CPW all times except nights, shuttle to Queensbridge.
Why is the World Trade Center station being ciosed,and is the 'C'line being discontinued for a month?
The WTC stub is being closed so the crossover switch can be completely replaced. The C line is being sacrificed because the E needs another southern terminal, and it's stealing Euclid Ave.
Thank you. As always you have pearls of wisdom
Frank--
Your dream is coming true... check the advisory.
(http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm)
The E will be extended to Euclid Avenue all times except nights. And the B will run to 168th Street on weekends.
(All right, time for the Brighton Line fans to start dreaming... will the Q replace the B to 21st Street evenings and weekends? The advisory doesn't say so. But don't be the farm on it. If anything happens, we're likely to get the same pattern we got for the 63rd Street line work [the shuttle will run from 21st to 57th/7th, and 57th/6th will be closed].)
Michael
Mike,
Almost my dream. I always wanted the E train running to Brooklyn to Euclid, but as the 8th Ave Express and Fulton St Express all times. Then have the A run 8th Ave Express all times, and Fulton St Express Weekdays. Well I'll take this for now..
Frank D
Your name is Queens Blvd. Express. Let me guess, you are a F Train. Hey QBE, are a steel dust breathing dragon roaming under Queens Blvd.?
Thats funny... no dragons....
E and the F have been my favorite lines since my short tenure on this planet, but know enough about both lines.
Frank D
Where would the E go at night time then?
3TM
The TA www site says nothing about that. It either runs to Euclid with the A local as well or there is a shuttle from Jamacia to 71 Ave with transfers to the F there.
I though I heard that the A was going to be running Express in Brookly all times, then I guess that the E can run local to Euclid all times..
Frank D
No, the E will go to Brooklyn only during the days & hours the C currently goes there.
Probably Houston-Second Ave., with the A alone serving Spring Street, Canal and Chambers-WTC
Don't forget that there is an unused layup track between the Canal St. and Chambers St. stations, and the E could use that at nights, so they might terminate at Canal St.
Why not do that at all times? It would leave the other lines out of it.
Sounds logical... except for a few things.
How many trains can the layup track handle? Probably one, no more than two. The first question is what do you do with trains between rush hours. The second question is how do you make moves quickly enough so that the A and C don't get caught up in delays. In some dayparts, you'd have little or no layover time.
It would be ridiculous.
There is another solution, but I don't know how time-efficient this one would be. Send the E along the F tracks from West Fourth Street to Second Avenue, where they could turn.
Thoughts on that?
Michael
The various towers would have a hard time identifying the trains......a very slow move into Second Ave. since a call on must be taken......lots of E passengers ride to Spring, Canal & WTC.
The big "problem" with the E to Euclid is that its a service improvement for Brooklyn, since more Es run than Cs. If it were not for the need to save a few cars -- and run a few more trains to 23rd and Spring in Manhattan -- the E 8th Avenue express to Euclid and C local to WTC makes more sense. Queens riders save a couple of stops downtown, Brooklyn riders save a couple of stops uptown, and you don't need to do that merge at Canal Street.
Brooklyn riders could get used to this.
Now that the Fulton St. line runs express every day, the reason for switching the C and E in 1976 no longer exists. Fulton St would be better served by the E train.
It couldn't handle the traffic coming off the E line, and would unnaceptably back up A and C trains
What are the exact specifics? Will the A run local
north of 145th? Is the B adequate enough to handle the rush hour load of CPW local riders? When will this plan take effect?
My question is, how with they divide up the train yard assignments? Will the B get some of its extra cars from the C's inventory at 207th St., and will the E have some cars stored at Pitkin yard instead of all at Jamaica?
My guess is that the entire fleet of C train cars will be parcelled out between the E and B lines as they are needed. So I'd expect to see R32's on the B. Maybe even a few R38's on the E.
The B will be increased. 3 extra trains out of Concourse each day. Hence, it would mean that 2-4 extra trains from the south to balance. The E train will neeed to be suplimented out of Pitkin Yard. However, there will be no transfer of equipment. Cars will remain in the fleet of the yards to which they are currently assigned.
So if the B is getting their extra trains out of Concourse and Coney Island, will the C trains out of 207th be used on the A line and some of the A/Cs at Pitkin be assigned to the E?
My guess is that the R32's from The C line will be configured for use on the E line, but remain assigned to the Pitkin Yard. The B will probably get a few extra R68's from the N line. This is the only way I can see that this could work without transferring cars from one yard to another.
That link is NYCT SERVICE NOTICES.
My understanding is this General Order is to replace the interlocking just north of World Trade Center, so that terminal will be out-of-service for the month. Yes, E trains will go to Euclid!
When is the last time that the E went to Brooklyn? I can remember back in the late 1960's when the E was the express on the Fulton line and went to Rockaway Park. I'm not sure if it went to Far Rockaway.
IIRC, January 1976. E rush hour service went from 179/Hillside to Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway. Ever since then, E south terminal has been WTC, 24/7.
BTW, that's why the lower level at 42/8 was closed for good - no longer needed for E trains to run south on the 8th Ave. Exp.
Can someone clear up:
(1) Does the B suspend its Concourse rush hour service, with the D local at all times, or is the B split between 168th and Bedford Park?
(2) Will the E run to Euclid on weekends?
Question 1: The A train will stop at 155th and 163rd Sts via crossovers at 145th and 168th Sts. Two additional stops won't put a gap in service on the A. B Trains continue to run on CPW to 145th Sts and then to Bedford Pk Blvd in the rush hours. There are no changes here, other than an increase in B service.
Question 2: E trains will run to Euclid even on the weekends. C trains ran into Brooklyn on the weekends, so the most logical thing to do is to replace the C with the E, even on the weekend.
As a side note, it's unclear where the E will terminate during the night hours, but my guess is the Chambers St spur. With little or no traffic during the night hours, turning trains around on the spur should not be a problem.
-Stef
As a user of the Rockaway Avenue station, I think it's a really stupid idea to cancel the C line.
Why does the TA have to make everything so confusing for passengers? Wouldn't it be more simple just to terminate the E at Second Avenue rather than introduce a unfamiliar line to dozens of stations and hundreds of passengers? No one expects the E train to go to Brooklyn.
Better to confuse city residents than have the suburbanites inconvienenced. LOL
That is true, but it did at one time.... LOL
Frank D
As it's been explained before, terminating trains at Second Ave would back up the F line into Brooklyn unnacceptably. That interlocking can't handle rush hour E traffic.
Besides, C riders will benefit from having 10 car E trains running in Brooklyn. More seats or everyone.
As it's been explained before, terminating trains at Second Ave would back up the F line into Brooklyn unnacceptably. That interlocking can't handle rush hour E traffic.
Besides, C riders will benefit from having 10 car E trains running in Brooklyn. More seats for everyone.
What confusion? Read the signs, if they're accurate. The reason they're doing this is probably because they need to serve the WTC. Of course, you've got the problem of how badly the service will be screwed up when the E goes all the way around like that.
- Hank
Perhaps. But the E will replace the C, so you're not at a total loss.
-Stef
(1) The TA does not have enough cars to extend the E to Euclid outright while leaving everything else the same; and (2) I see an actual increase in Fulton St. local service while the C is suspended.
When will all this begin?
Joe C
January 28, Friday at 10PM until Monday Morning, February 28 at 5AM.
-Stef
What is the latest update on the delivery of the R142A's to Yonkers or NYCT? Also, what is going on with deliveries of the R142's?
YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL IN ENTERING TUNNEL ON THE 155TH STREET SHUTTLE.
LETS GO TO THE 106TH STREET STATION ON THE IND FULTON STREET LINE. IT DOES EXIST.
Can you confirm that?
It's the abandoned station near Pitkin Yard.
Can something be considered abandoned if it was never bandoned?
I was told it didn't exist.
There is no 106th St. station on the Fulton St. line. The closest you get to that is the 104th/Oxford el stop. These rumors of unused stations east of Euclid Ave. have popped up now and again, but none are true.
I'm intrigued. How does one get down there?
--Mark
Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig has ordered John Rocker to undergo psychological testing after his recent remarks about New York City. Comments, Anyone
Hopefully, the psychiatrist he orders him to see has his office somewhere around Main Street on the Flushing line.
A waste of money!!! There is nothing there to examine
Reminds me of an old news bulletin, modernized for this topic ....
" ... x-rays were taken of [John Rocker's] head after the incident. The x-rays showed nothing".
--Mark
[Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig has ordered John Rocker to undergo psychological testing after his recent remarks about New York City. Comments, Anyone]
Selig is an idiot himself (but that's nothing that hasn't been known for a long time). Psychological testing is ridiculous in this situation. What in the world is it supposed to show - that Rocker wasn't mentally responsible for his comments? That's not psychology, it's psychobabble ... assuming there IS a difference, of course. Selig should either (a) accept Rocker's apology and let the matter drop, or (b) impose some sort of punishment. Ordering psychological testing is just a way of weaseling out of decision-making.
CNN has posted an article on the subject: http://cnnsi.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/01/06/rocker_tests_ap/index.html
[Selig should either (a) accept Rocker's apology and let the matter drop]
I think WE should let the matter drop. I live in Atlanta and I personally think he is a complete idiot, everyone else on Subtalk seems to think so, too. I don't see how some people here still want to drag this on.
I don't think anyone should let the matter drop. Rocker should be held accountable for his actions and words. If you or I said anything like that, it would be like the tree that fell in the forest that nobody heard when it fell. John Rocker is using his position as a Major League Baseball Player on the team that won the National League Championship to make his platform of haterd and bigotry known to the masses. He is a sick puppy that craves attention in a very sick and warped way. He is like a serial killer that keeps killing because he wants the police to catch him. Why? For attention. Don't you see what a rise he gets when 50,000 fans boo him all at once. He laps it up. This sicko should be banned from Baseball. The name John Rocker is not a househiold word for the same reason that Mark Mcgwire is. John Rocker is a household word because he is highly controversial. Rocker is a detriment to Baseball.
NYC TRANSIT
I didn't mean that Rocker shouldn't go unpunished or that the matter should be dropped from public debate, I meant it should be dropped from Subtalk. We're here to talk about subways, not baseball
I didn't start the thread. I just respond to it. The Rocker thread was the #1 thread for a while. Then it died down. When the posts were there, I responded to them. When they weren't there, I didn't look to revive it, but as long as somebody else did, I jumped in there. That idiot made some very strong anti-New York statements. Certainly, you can understand the anti-Rocker sentiment in New York. Once everyone gets their 2¢ in and beats the dead horse for a little while longer, it will die down.
NYC TRANSIT
What happened to your BMT Standard image?? I miss it. Please bring it back!!!!!!
What happened to your BMT Standard image?? I miss it. Please bring it back!!!!!!
Its back, by popular demand!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This is a very stupid response to the stupid comments that Rocker made. As offensive as Rocker's comments were, he is entitled to make them. The baseball owners and executives should make it clear that they disagree strongly with Rocker's comments, and let it go at that. After all, Rocker was hired for his athletic ability, not his intelligence. This practice of labeling attitudes we don't like as being the products of so-called "mental illness" is a very unfortunate development. It indicates that people in the U.S. do not fully understand or appreciate what the freedoms guaranteed to Americans really mean.
Here is my honest opinion:
He made some comments. He made them in PUBLIC. THEREIN lies the problem.
Every one of us have opinions about other people, places, etc. Not all of our opinions are what those other people WANT to hear. Keep them private, and nobody has a problem.
Unfortunately, Rocker didn't. But I don't think it is worthy of psychological testing/therapy. If it was, we should ALL be undergoing testing or therapy.
I agree with the previous posts that a man is entitled to his opinion. It's called "freedom of speech" from a little know document called the United States CONSTITUTION. Of course, Rocker should have kept these opinions to himself in these "Political Correct" times.
But here's baseball's problem (or rather Clueless Bud's problem). After Marge Schott's diarhea of the mouth and Al Campanis' stupid comment on Nightline how can they let this go un-ignored. You can't have a double standard...one for players and one for executives...
Besides they would have to clothe Rocker in a bullet proof vest and a battle helmet and more padding than a hockey goalie when he goes to Shea or any other city that has a large minority population....Of course any protest or boycott by Sharpton and his ilk probably scares
Selig and they are now in a bunker mentality.
Best thing would be to have him sent to a west coast team to shut him up. NY Rangers did it to Don Murdock in the late 60's early 70's when he was caught doing drugs in NYC ( I think heroin but I'm not sure).
Some of you may remember back before the introduction of door chimes to rapid transit (anyone know the date of the first one?). It was awful. Every day thousands of riders were crushed to an agonizing death in the jaws of subway doors. After all, how would anyone know that after dwelling in the station for a certain amount of time and the conductor seeing that nobody was in the way, how would you know that you shouldn't suddenly bolt for the door only to get caught!
And of course there were no announcements as to what station you were in, so everyone was lost and that was the root cause of homelessness.
Children constantly plunged to their death when they climbed out the open windows as the trains careened out of control at 90 mph due to lack of GT signals and speedometers. (Although this pales compared to the loss of life that occurred from open vestibles.)
Then there was the all to frequent horror of innocent people getting fried because there was nothing to stop them from licking spilled ice cream off the third rail.
Thank heavens those days are behind us. Of course nobody here would remember this because there were no survivors.
Bill
Stay tuned for tomorrow's expose on why no school children survived the sixties because the schools were full of asbestos and their parents were all dead from radon.
You forgot to mention the thousands of people who died each summer on the subway system due to heat stroke, because there were no air conditioned cars.
And what about those tall people who were injured by the overhead fans :-)
Oh yea. Often was the time you'd be waiting to get on a Low V or an R-1/9, the doors would open and someone's damn head would come rolling out of the train. Not to mention how slippery the floors were from all that blood, though it blended it better with the red padded seats than with the wicker...
Speaking of those wicker seats, how many times were you stabbed in the "derierre" by a broken wicker?!
Hey, I'm 6'8" and I always bang my head on the Washington Metro NOW. Those fans are killers.
Hahahahahahaha!!!!
This is bring back too many memories.
My memory of those wicker seats was that after a long ride, you got up and your buttcheeks felt like waffles!!
Yeah, but those red cushion seats were great!!!
Yeah, but those red cushion seats were great!!!
Not in summer, when you had to peel yourself off them.
Yeah, but those red cushion seats were great!!!
Not in summer, when you had to peel yourself off them.
You peel yourself off of fiberglass in the summer also. BTW, the Miami Metrorail has cloth seats. The last time I rode it was in 1992. I don't know if anything changed, but in 1992, there was no graffiti, no scratchiti and no ripped seats.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'll take any padded seats, even wicker, over the hard stuff.
NYC TRANSIT
You forgot to mention the thousands of people who died each summer on the subway system due to heat stroke, because there were no air conditioned cars.
Why don't you guys knock it off with all this exaggeration and all this nonsense. Thousands and millions dying in the subway? If any people in foreign countries who don't know any better read this nonsense, they would believe it and they would be horrified at the thought of coming to New York and riding the subway.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I may be biased on the issue of nonsense, but I feel
a little nonsense doesn't hurt. It's nice to see
that we can goof around a little bit and maybe take
things to extremes. If you're really concerned that
it will keep tourists away, well maybe if they don't
have a sense of humor, they should go to another
city.
I guess I'm making this point, partly because some
of our comrades over on the BusTalk side of the
fence could have used a few laughs yesterday.
Things got particularly ugly there again. Some
times we get so caught up in our knowledge and
passion about trains and buses that we may forget
that we should be having some fun.
C'mon Paul. Now you are getting me curious. How can a bulletin board about buses get ugly??? I mean buses ain't exactly religion or politics!!! What are the arguments about?? Exiting via the back door or the Front door?? What's more scenic, the Q12 or the N6? Should we go back to making change? I might just sneak over there to see for myself!!!
Trust me. Anyone who might take these posts that seriously won't be coming here, because they're still hiding in their bunker waiting for the delayed effects of Y2K to destroy civilization as we know it.
You mean its safe to come out now??
01/07/2000
You know, all those dummies who bought gasoline generators,canned food,bottled water and maybe old Civil Defense helmuts can contact those other dummies and unload all that Y2K stockpiles and recoup their losses.
Bill Newkirk
I always told people I would get all of that emergency stuff on February 1, 2000. I'm sure that there would be SUPER CLEARANCES and I didn't expect any Y2K crap.
And really, generators? Why would anyone need to keep their refrigerator running after the end of civilization?
Civilization, as we knew it was already destroyed. We all went to Cyber-Heaven.
NYC TRANSIT
You know you forgot the millions of passengers who were permanently blinded by steel dust when they opened the storm door windows on R22 cars at 100 MPH. Today there are now passengers who are bored to death from watching a station sign go by from the side window of an R68.
*reminds me of atlanta !!! the door chimes or loud "BEEP" and still people would get caught!!
even at the FIVE POINTS station!!!! thats waht happens when you have one operator opening and
closing the doors like chicago too !! i saw this nightmare in atalnta !!!!
I thought heypaul was the comedian in here!
Kevin---I have no problem with other comedians on
SubTalk. In fact my ultimate goal is to see SubTalk
become like Car Talk on the radio. Mostly laughs,
and a few questions about subway cars.
Reminds me of a "spot" for the 11:00 news I heard on New York's Channel 7 many years ago ...
"Man killed by Long Island Express Commuter. Details at 11".
(They forgot to say the word "train"!)
--Mark
Can anyone out there make any kind of sense out of the signals used on the Metro-North Commuter Railroad? I could figure out the old NY Central System signals, but the ones that are in use now are a mystery. I know that cab signals are in use to cut down on costs, but just out of curiosity, what are the indications for the ones that are in place now? Is the current trend going to be to an all cab signaled system? Will there be such a trend in the NY Subways? How about it, guys?
As I mentioned in a prior post, the NYCTA is not capable of responsibly handling millions of dollars. The TA will never go with a system proven for decades, nor will they ever lead the way in modern technology. Over a decade of AC traction before the TA tried it out. Three decades of cab signalling and the TA is still in the 19th century using cans and string for communication. I can't explain Metro-North as I studied NORAC only.
New York City Transit will invest $135 million for Communications Based Train Control and WILL make it work. That's as clear as paying taxes.
[New York City Transit will invest $135 million for Communications Based Train Control and WILL make it work]
How will they know if it works? Have they set operational criteria for a pass/fail judgement? Is this criteria sufficiently more stringent than than past performance so that any improvement can be attributed to the new technology?
Metro North has eliminated all wayside automatic block signals
and relies solely on cab signal indication. At the exits of
interlockings they now have a three-color-light signal with
Red/Green/Red bulbs. This can display Red-Red (stop), flashing
green (proceed on cab signal) and an absurd Manual Block
indication which is Red-Red interflashed with the center green.
This last one is used for manual control when cab signals are
inoperative. The standard NYCentral/NORAC color light signals
are still used at interlockings.
It functions as "clear to next interlocking" which means it's flashing when there are no trains in the entire distance to the next interlocking. If it comes on steady a train with functioning cab signals may proceed normal. A train with malfunctioning cab signals may not leave until it flashes indicating a clear track. The train must approach the next interlocking prepared to stop.
Thta's why PC physical charecteristics training is so importanant.
Metro North uses signals at interlockings that are "reduced instruction set" asspects. Matter of fact the SIRT is getting this system but with out the "reduced instruction set", they will stick with the B&O aspects currently used but they will only have signals at interlockings and full cab signals and automatic speed control. The orginal plan was to use communications based signaling, but NYCT didn't want to wait until a competitive system was devloped (they opted to develop the competitive system on the Canarsie Line). SIRT went with the tried and true Metro North System.
Probably part of the reason to install new signals on the SIRT was that there are no trip stops (like the rest of the subway) so there was no enforcement of the signals. Of couurse I never heard of any accidents due to lack of signal enforcement on the SIRT (Hank??) and there has been accidents on the rest of the subway.
Nope. No acidents due to passing signals. There are only 3 in recent memory, 2 derailments (a work train crossing over at Great Kills, and a derailment on the throat of St. George) and a train that had a brake failure and rammed the concrete stop at Tottenville.
-Hank
You know why right? Certification and federally mandated standards. Real engineers don't risk their licenses and management with the fed watching them doesn't play games. Big difference here huh?
Not to diminish your very valid point, Erik, but he didn't say
no red signal violations, just no accidents caused by them.
On a railroad that runs fairly relaxed headways, has long signal
blocks and has pretty good visibility all around, the chances of
hitting the next train are slim
They used to have a local train depart after an express from St. George with only 3 minutes apart. I think that is as close trains get at any time except for the put ins in the morning rush but that cross over move is with dispatcher approval.
SIR uses a 'call on' button at Great Kills and Huguenot, at least until recently. When they had only the trailing-point spring switches, they would pull the train clear of the points, change ends, and the engineer would push a button before proceeding through the crossover. They have just installed a new electrified spur at Great Kills, but the switches are all still hand throw. They were supposed to finish 'modernizing the track, signals, and switches' in 1995, but as of yet, there has been no action on the signals. All the crossovers were replaced, but most are still hand-throw, with a few spring switches. Eventually, it is believed that there would be bi-directional signals, and an increase in service from every 1/2 hour to every 20 minutes between 10A and 3:30P, and a corresponding increase in rush hour service.
-Hank
On most but I don't know for sure about SIRT railroads only home signals actually require a stop and stay. They are almost aways stop-and-proceed signals. After the stop the engineer goes at restricted speed.
On the LIRR we had three automatics called grade sigals on the Montauk West of Jamaica. These sigals could be passed at restricted speed without stopping if your train met certain requirements.
If you were going up the grade with over a certain amount of cars or the tonnage exceeded a specific capacity of the engines(they escape me at the moment) then a stop wasn't required. Made life easy for train crews. Otherwise the train wouldn't have been able to get started again on the hill after stopping for the signal.
Yeah, that's standard NORAC..a G plate makes an red automatic
mean restricting for freight trains....then depending on the
RR, for pax trains, sometimes the automatic is absolute by default
and is permissive if a white light is displayed beneath it or
(old LIRR/Pennsy rules, don't know if this still holds) there is
a milepost number plate on the signal. Some R.R. use an "A" fixed
plate sign to make an automatic absolute, otherwise it is permissive
(stop and proceed) by default.
SIR is not currently covered by FRA regs, as they are an embargoed line and no longer a common carrier.
All of the current signals, when red, are read as 'stop and proceed' When encountered during single-track operation, this requires a radio call, and engineers are told to proceed to the end of the single-track section 'in accordance with rule 509-A'
-Hank
All of the current signals, when red, are read as 'stop and proceed'
This includes interlocking signals as well, or only automatics?
No such thing. The only real 'interlocking' on the line is at St. George, where the 2 mains split into the 10 terminal tracks. This is unsignaled and totally controlled from tower B. the only other automatic switches on the line ar at the Tottenville end, where the 2 mains split into 2 platform tracks and 3 storage tracks. All other switches are hand-throw or trailing-point spring switches.
-Hank
Steve (or any other R-68 sighters out there),
Has anyone seen 2579 in service very recently, or are 2576, 2577 and 2578 still being held up because of 2579?
Thanks!
Nick (aka Knight Of The Golden Rose)
2579 is part of the last 4-car R-68 link. It is currently being inspected and fine tuned for service. Look for it next week some time.
Wow, they fixed that in a hurry! Good work, guys!
Wayne
The number plates on 2755 look like someone was having fun by applying
BMT standard 2755 plates to it. Can that be?
Joe C
That car was crushed on the side at CIYD during acceptance testing by a work train. Improper flagging was the cause. That car, I was told, left TA property to be repaired. It actually is the "newest" R68 in terms of service time. Unfortunately, matching number boards were not reproduced. I can assure you they are not the boards from BMT Standard 2755.
I that last time I saw 2755 the car numbers appeared to be decals.
Wayne
They are, and they are peeling.
(the other) Wayne
We used to use them on the rotted out number boards or totally missing ones on the R-21/22 cars in the IRT.
I had at one time used a set for my address where I live. The landlord was a retired motorman and got hoot out of it. The wife didn't though. Maybe someone noticed it? 3028 under the El in Astoria?
Well for the first time, a southern (IND-BMT) shop has broken the 200,000 mile MDBF barrier. The numbers are not final but when the dust settles, Concourse Shop will have an MDBF for December of over 203,000 miles. Best of all it was done with the much malignedR-68
Congratuations, Steve.
But I'll bet it did take a looonnnng time for those cars to chug their way the 200,000 mark.
Rim Shot
Seriously Steve, congratuations. It's nice to here from a TA employee who is proud of the work he does !
Mr t__:^)
How was this figure calculated?
MDBF is the milage accumulated by the fleet for the month of December (greater than 1.6 million miles) divided by delays charged to Car Equipment for the month (8).
Is the fleet mileage in car-miles?
You can look at this way. For example, Concourse Yard has 200 R-68s. Each R-68 car traveled 8,000 miles last December. Therefore,
Fleet mileage= 200 cars * 8,000 miles/car = 1,600,000 miles
If there were 8 failures during December,
MDBF= 1,600,000 miles/8 failures = 200,000 miles/failure
Chaohwa
Thank you, that certainly cleared up the calculation.
This is certainly a vast improvement from the dark days when that figure was less than 20,000 miles. However, I'm troubled by one seeming paradox. I would have thought that if the distance between failures improved by an order of magnitude, then the percentage of trains that was available for service should also increase. However, this figure has remained at 85% throughout.
I can think of several explanations seeming contradiction. However, I would appreciate hearing from someone with first hand knowledge.
Not necessarilly so for two reasons. First, the greatest single reason for the increase in the fleet's performance is maintenance. If you maintain it before it breaks down, it will likely not break down. This is borne out by the fact that the vast majority of the failures on the Concourse fleet are component failures and not due to wear and mis-adjustment. The second reason is that with 4-car links, if one car goes out of service, so do its 3 mates. This will normally keep your spare factor lower and your 'cars unavailable for service' higher. My spare factor is 13% with the 4 car units.
In 1980, MDBF was 6,000 miles!
--Mark
LOL. I heard that some R16's in 1980 had MDBF's in the hundreds of miles.
There were also some R-10s which had a MBDF in the hundreds.
From what I gather the R68's were not delivered until the late 1980's. And they were run as single units. Wasn't the MDBF around 60,000 miles?
Please correct me, if my memory is hazy.
For the late 1980s, I'd say a MDBF of 60K sounds right.
--Mark
In 1994, when I moved to the Concourse yard, the R-68 MDBF was around 30,000 miles.
Thanks. Is it also possible to find out the average number of miles travelled by each car? I know Mr. Chen posted a figure of 8000 miles. Is this a realistic figure or was it used to conveniently demonstrate the MDBF computation? Also is there a great deal of variability for this figure (mean distance travelled) between the years and between cars of differing types?
Cars of the same fleet may have huge variations in the distance traveled in a year. Factors such as long term repairs and repeat failures contribute to the inequities. Therefore, it stands to reason that different shops with different lines and different serviceneeds all contribute to non-uniform milage for different car fleets too.
One problem that I have with the MDBF metric whose calculation was described by Mr. Chen is that it is too easy to misapply. It is the figure for a single car. However, NYCT does not run single cars. They run multiple car units.
It is fairly easy to approximate MDBF for a multiple car unit, if the Mean Distance Travelled by the individual cars is much smaller than their MDBF. The relation ship is:
MDBF(n) = MDBF(1)/n
where MBDF(n) is the MDBF for an n car unit and MDBF(1) is the MDBF for a single car.
I found a post that David Pirmann made to the nyc.transit group in Oct 1997. It shows various fleet MDBF figures between 1994 and 1997. It confirms your figure of 30,000 (May 94) and my recollection of 60,000 (Jun 97). The 12 month Jul 97 figures show figures of 80,000 and 94,000 for the R68 and R38 respectively. Question: which would have been the more reliable 600 foot train on average - one composed R68's or one composed of R38's? The answer is that an 8 car train of R68's would have a MDBF of 10,000 whereas 10 car train of R38's would have a MDBF of 9,400. The choice would be the R68's even though the their individual car MDBF figure is greater than the R38's.
A similar problem comes in with the use of link bars and how they are used. They are really a 4 car unit and should be treated as such. This means that the 200,000 MDBF figure should be restated as 50,000. This does not make any difference for the calculation of a train's MDBF. It is 25,000 whether it is calculated as 25000/2 or 200000/8.
The lower figure is however a much more realistic measure of rail car availability. Indeed, a comparison with the 1997 single unit figures shows that MDBF has decreased from 80,000 to 50,000! Such a decrease is more consistent with the continued car shortage than a 250% increase of in the single unit figure.
As Disraeli said: "there are lies, damn lies and statistics." Moreover, it is fairly easy to deceive oneself unintentionally. There are several other statistics that are required to give a true picture of the car fleet's maintenance. The single MDBF statistic is not sufficient and can be misleading.
Well said, Stephen - I've been trying to make sense of this and hadn't been able to, just had a nagging feeling that somewhere, somehow there was some funky math going on that made things look better than they were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You are making things too complicated, even for the nit-picker sociaty. MDBF is based on fleet miles. If 10 cars run 100 miles, that's 1,000 car/miles. This is a universally accepted way to calculate MDBF. If I understand what you are saying, a married pair, a 4-car unit and a 5-car unit traveling that same 100 miles would accrue just 100 miles. This makes absolutely no sense as it gives no legitimate basis for comparison. In Tokyo, they use solid 10 car consists. Would you compare them mile for mile with a pair of R-32s? I think that you need to keep in mind that MDBF is mearly a ratio and a means of comparison. Your way would defeat the comparison. However, if you don't like the way MDBF is calculated, feel free to keep your own statistics....
A failure for a system is a failure for any of its components. What is the MDBF for a system?
If you take a system that is composed if 10 identical units - each with a MDBF of 200,000 miles then the MDBF for the system is 20,000 miles.
This allows you to compare similar systems (trains) each composed of identical units (cars) but different in number and type. Thus, you can calculate the MDBF for a 10 car train of R32's, and 8 car train of R68's and a dedicated 10 car train on the Ginza Line.
Link bars and component sharing between cars have been used as a means for increasing individual car MDBF. This has eliminated coupler failures and fewer parts usually mean fewer failures. If there were no penalty for such a stategy, then you would abandon MU operation and go back to a locomotive and coaches.
There is a penalty. The penalty is that when a failure does occur it takes out 2, 4, 5 or 10 cars - depending how many are linked together. This means that there will be fewer cars available than if the failure took out only a single car. Can you calculate how much greater the MDBF figures for a 2, 4 or 5 car units must be over single units to insure the same availability? Of course, you use the same methodology. A 4-car unit must have at least 4 times the MDBF as a single unit for equivalent availability performance.
Using the 1997 MDBF figure of 80,000 for the single unit R68's this means that you will need to improve to a MDBF to at least 320,000 miles before you will start to see any increase in availability. It also means that the new R142's had better have a MDBF of at least 2.5 times greater than the redbirds they are replacing.
There are two important factors that influence availability: mean time to failure (MTTF) and mean time to replacement/repair (MTTR). MTTF is simply the MDBF divided by the average number of miles travelled per car. The most important thing is that the MTTR be less than the MTTF, otherwise more cars will be lost than are being returned to service. This is another potential reason for car shortages. It is hoped that the onboard computer systems will significantly shorten the R142's MTTR.
You are absolutely correct. It's the transit industry around the world that's incorrect.
You are absolutely correct. It's the transit industry around the world that's incorrect.
Transit industry statistics is to statistics as military justice is to justice?
Is there any possibility that the new trains will, after the bugs are out, bring down the number of required spares?
Failures in service are bad, but once MDBF gets high enough, you begin to run into diminishing returns. The question then becomes, can you keep the same MDBF with fewer spares through faster maintenance or off peak maintenance.
At $22 million per train, hopefully divided over 30+ years, plus interest, every extra train you need for a given level of service adds significantly to costs. Conversely, if you figure the money is fixed and the service vary, cutting the number of spares is a way to increase service, as long as MDBF does not rise.
I don't foresee any remarkable decrease in spare factors. Right now, the redbirds are single cars or married pairs. The R-142s will be 3, 4 or 5 car units. Based on that fact alone, more spares will be required even if the new cars more reliable than those that they replace.
(Share of spares may increase)
Maybe the reducing the spare factor needs to be a goal. It certainly affects cost/extent of service. High MDBF is just half the story.
Reminds me of the old Fisher Body plant my Grandmother worked at in Tarrytown. The goals was to produce as many cars as possible. So you ended up with a huge parking lot full of screwed up cars, with dozens of mechanics trying to fix them (many of which had come back from angry customers), but that didn't count against productivity.
Same thing here. Everyone knows about MDBF. Not many think about the cost of having enough trains to have some out of service at rush hour.
The alternative is to do the bulk of the maintenance during the non-commission hours. However, conventional wisdom ses it otherwise. The current path for scheduled maintenance is:
AM tour - inspect the car and make minor repairs.
PM tour - make moderate repairs.
Midnight tour - Finish repairs & heavy cleaning of cars.
AM tour - ready for service.
Therefore, the conventional thought is 24 hours minimum for a scheduled inspection. (There are variations in every shop) If we were to start after the PM rush, it would still take 24 hours to turn the car around. Since the 3 functions tend to interfere with each other, combining functions to speed the process is not practical. That leaves the other option - double the manpower and cut the time to make repairs and perform 'level one cleaning'.
Another consideration is seniority. If inspections were done 7PM - 3 AM, you would end up with your least experienced car inspectors doing the most critical maintenance function - the inspection. I don't necessarilly think this is bad but I'm in the minority here.
Another consideration is if the railroad goes into the crapper during the PM rush hour, you may lose your inspections to 'the needs of service'. They may be needed for just one more trip and return 3 hours later.
So you can either pay with adequate spares or you can pay with additional manpower and still may not get what you want. Anyone have any thoughts?
OK so we know CED is well run and well staffed. Look what has been done with the R-68.
Now. CAN SOMEONE TAKE THAT SAME ATTITUDE AND BRING IT TO RTO!
The D line has very good management. They have had 100% AM throughputs for ten consecutive weeks. Of course, some credit goes to the equipment but the real credit goes to the Line Supt. (PM) and his staff (PS, RC, & PC). PM and I worked together on the E line way back when and we have always worked well together. Sounds like you need to come north for a bit.
We have a great PM Deputy Supt. on the No.6 Line. He seems like the only one who pays attention the Model board at Grand Central and knows why the trains run late. Everyone else just don't get it.
Hard to fault the way the trains are run. Aside from some unpleasantness in early December, they pretty much arrive. I remember the bad old days.
Which leads me the spate of articles on how bad the LIRR is some months back. The Times included without comparison several excuses as to why the LIRR works less well (and covers a lower share of its operating costs) than MetroNorth. The cars are almost 30 years old. Its a complicated system where there are lots of routes that converge on Jamaica and then diverge. Etc. Etc.
I couldn't help comparing that with the subway, with cars pushing 40 years old betting 70,000 MDBF and dozens of trains converging, diverging, and converging with other trains.
So what is the difference here -- management quality or labor unions. And if the unions don't want to give credit to the management, but say that the LIRR labor situation is what they would prefer, is that what riders could expect if the TWU had its way?
Does seem like our T/O friend needs some "New Directions" to drive his train to
Mr t__:^)
Well I can't comment there because I haven't worked the D since January of 1998. The E I can comment on.
Although it's well run, my gripes aren't with the low level management who run the day to day things. It's with the senior management that sets policy and writes timetables and work programs.
Dealing with the PC of a poorly designed terminal for the amount of trains run, the PM dispatcher and Supt. do very well. Working with these people is both easy and rewarding.
Working the line is a pleasure as I like the E and the R-32.
The work programs are another story.
Squeezing into a ten hour day four trips is mind numbing. What's wrong with three in eight? I'll tell you why: if you have four crews doing three trips each, for twelve trips. Add another trip to have four each. Now three crews does the work of four. Saves money. Sure you pay each crew an additonal two hours. But that's six man hours instead of eight. Cost effective, productivity.
BLOOD MONEY. This runs people into the ground and will eventually cause an accident. To save two hours. I can see the need for economy but sometimes it goes too far.
We don't help ourselves when these are the first jobs to go in the pick.
It seems that something good happens wherever Steve goes. R-46s had good performace when Steve was in Jamaica Yard. Now R-68s.
BTW, are some Concourse R-68s going to suppliment B line during February when C line is shut down?
Chaohwa
Well yeah, but they will always be hippos, no matter how reliable they are. LOL
Seriously this is a testemant to how much value preventative maintenance is to a subway car. If this keeps up, we migh be cursing the hippos for another 40 years.
Way to go!
Now if only the people who ride the D line would appreciate it.
They could start by CLEANING UP AFTER THEMSELVES! The cars sure do get dirty!
--Mark
It figures that the car with the highest MDBF also has the lowest MPH!
Those are the Batch I R68s (the Jeumont-Schneider cars), correct.
Congratulations on your remarkable achievement. Can you make some of your magic rub off elsewhere?
Wayne
Thank you Wayne. The magic is training, hard work and attention to detail. There are 3 other managers here who share that philosophy.
I just returned home from celebrating the millennium at Walt Disney
World in Florida, and while there, I took several rides on their
monorail system that connects Magic Kingdom with EPCOT. I've noticed
that their, and other (enclosed) monorail trains very much resemble
subway/elevated trains. Since monorails are very common at many theme
parks, and are also found at airports, zoos, and certain attractions,
would they be classified as amusement rides, or transit vehicles/
systems?
Ahh! A new and interesting RELATED topic for a change.
Having visited Las Vegas not long ago I posted something similar.
I have not been to DisneyWorld, but from what I have heard and seen about the monorail system, it is a rapid transit system, but technically not related to a municipal NYC subway-type system. Specifically because the Disney Monorail runs within the confines of the park, it is more like a shuttle service serving Disney's own needs, without addressing the commuting possiblities of those who live and work OUTSIDE of the DisneyWorld "universe".
The City of Las Vegas proposed an interesting Monorail question to two major casinos: the city realizes that their limited bus service to the new Vegas Strip is inadequate. They want the assistance of MGM Grand and Bally's (the co-owners of the current Monorail that runs between the two hotels) to build an extension of the line that would terminate in the downtown area of Vegas. The hotels don't seem interested, even though in the long-term they would benefit by getting 'day rollers' (the afterwork crowd and downtown residents) to patronize their establishments along with the regular assortment of tourists.
Have you heard anything about Disney being approached by the City of Orlando to expand the Monorail into a municipal transit system? I doubt it, since Disney is a very self-serving company that is not traditionally into involving itself with outside interests.
Doug aka BMTman
Have you heard anything about Disney being approached by the City of Orlando to expand the Monorail into a municipal transit system? I doubt it, since Disney is a very self-serving company that is not traditionally into involving itself with outside interests.
Doubtful that this would ever be feasible. As you allude to, Disney is one of the most greedy, self-serving corporations the world has ever seen. If the idea doesn't benefit their bottom line, forget about it. (I put Disney into the same category of predator corporations as Wal-Mart, and not a dime of my money will ever go toward their coffers if I can avoid it.)
Also, downtown Orlando is a considerable distance away from Disney World (seemed like at least 10 miles or so the one time I was there), and downtown Orlando wouldn't be worth connecting to anyway. What they call "downtown" in Orlando is little more than a small collection of dull office buildings and parking garages. All the sophistication and character of a suburban office park, minus the manicured lawns.
If Disney wanted to connect their monorails to anything outside its own little fascist empire, then a connection to the Orlando Airport would make the most sense. (Actually, the airport itself even has a nifty little people mover system that connects the main terminal with the gate concourses.)
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
While I was in Florida, I picked up a map of the Orlando area, and it
shows a proposed light rail line that would extend from just north of
downtown, through the International Drive corridor, to at least Sea
World, with possible future extensions to the Disney World resorts.
Because of all the attractions in the Orlando area, I feel that a
good mass transit system is definitely needed, whether it is in the
form of light rail, heavy rail (subway), or monorail.
I haven't been to Disney in years but their Monorail could not operate publicly if you ask me. There are no emergancy catwalks on the system anywhere (this is when I was there 10 years or so ago). I beleive that would be a requirement for Public Transit.
There are no emergency catwalks on the system anywhere (this is when I was there 10 years or so ago).
I was there last September. This is still true.
--Mark
the joke is on us here in LOST ANGELES come ( los angele rail system MR WILLIE s joke , )
here and ride the so called ''light rail' ha!! ha!! ha!!
TRY IT YOU WONT LIKE IT !!!! but what do i know?? i like rail fan windows !!!!!
I would not consider placing Light Rail on the same scale as heavy rail or commuter rail (or even monorails). As far as I know, Light Rail is one car operation; its capacity is the same as that of a bus. In some places, like Philadelphia's subway surface lines, it works well. That is because it takes 5 different lines and puts them into one tunnel. But if only one or two branches will exist to this so called Orlando or Lost Angeles line, then LRT is a joke. The only real transit for such a line would be heavy rail, or some kind of modified commuter rail, if the planners are too cheap to grade seperate it.
Light rail is not just one-car operation - take a look at Baltimore, St. Louis, or San Diego, among others. They are multi-car trains of light rail vehicles. Light rail simply refers to the type of car construction and its intended operation, which can be mixed-use or even entirely in the streets, and typically low/no platform, as opposed to heavy rail transit, which is normally 100% private right-of-way and, in the modern era, normally high-platform. Heavy rail could operate on the same tracks as freight; light rail would not ordinarily be permitted to do so at the same time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For me the main thing that makes light rail light rail is the fact that it gets stuck in traffic, like a bus. While it is real transit, I agree that it is no better (and in some ways worse) than a bus, unless as in Philly (or in mid-sized cities n Europe) the light rail lines converge on a subway tunnel in the Downtown where traffic is heavy. Then it has a real advantage.
Also add San Francisco since all lines except the J Run Multi Cars during rush hours, and off peak 2 or more lines K-L-M sometimes hook up as one train unit from West Poprtal into the City. Also LA Blue Line rus 2 Car Trains
[Heavy rail could operate on the same tracks as freight; light rail
would not ordinarily be permitted to do so at the same time.]
So does this mean that commuter/regional rail is really heavy rail?
I have always been under the impression that the term'light rail' started to come into use around the time in the '70's when planners didn't want to use the old-fashioned term 'trolley'( I mean, who wants an old trolley, when you have light rail?) But there ARE differences in the terms, and what they mean. Heavy rail,used in urban planning, generally means a subway or since 'subway' is a dirty word, a metro. Whereas 'light rail' is used to denote what was called either a trolley or interurban type line. San Diego,Portland, and others of those kind would,in the 'old days' would have been an interurban; while SF (even tho it runs underground for quite a distance),Philly and such were/are 'trolley systems'.This,of course always brings up the argument that when Boston first opened its 'subway', it wasn't a *ahem* 'true' subway, but a trolley system that they put underground (like the SF MUNI). Whereas London and NYC opened systems that were planned primarily as underground rapid transit, can be called a true 'subway' (or underground depending on where you live..) Of course, as in all things in the English language, there are exceptions-you catagorize PATH, for instance. Commuter rail GENERALLY means passenger service utilizing 'regular' railroad type cars over a 'standard' (i.e. FRA regulated) railroads ROW. 'Rapid transit' usually indicates any service that is urban, with frequent (more than a couple or trains an hour)service,many stops, and not run on standard RR tracks or ROWS.....But, on the other hand,something like the Port Wash Branch of the LIRR could almost be considered rapid transit; while in a place like Rochester,for instance they ran what they CALLED a 'subway', but was in reality an interurban that ran underground for just a few blocks downtown....okay -English class is dismissed.....time for recess....
What would you call the Newark subway?
Yesterday A Trolley Line, Today Light Rail. By the way when the San Diego Trolley is closed, they use the right of way for a local freight between S>S. and the Border. By the way what other city in the country where you could take a rail transit line to a international border then San Diego, and beside New York, what other System will take you within 1 block of a Ocean?
Spain. The Barcelona Metro has a stop that's closer to the Mediterranean than South Ferry is to NY harbour, and there are several interurban-type services that go to both the French and Portuguese borders.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can't imagine any line which could come any closer to a waterfront than South Ferry. It comes, or came, to literally within a few feet of the shoreline.
Blackpool, England: A trolley line running right along the shore for most of its length. The system was originally built with conduit (I don't remember the year, but it is a pretty old system), but so much sand blew into the slot that it was a maintenance nightmare. They quickly converted to overhead wire.
I Mentioned a Ocean, not a river, bay or lake, the Actual Ocean. Seattle s waterfront trolley also runs along the sound too.
Although it is "history" now, the Pacific Electric ran right along the PAcific. DO you recall?
Joe C.
One of the Barcelona Metro stations - Correos - suffered a cave-in during construction back in the '30s and tried to drain the Mediterranean. It took about a year to build a cofferdam, drain the lower half mile or so, and rebuild the damaged portion of the line. This station was closed in 1972 as part of a line reconstruction; the former station site was used for turning trains (stub-end) until the line was extended under a filled-in portion of the harbor in late 1973. I was in the station after its closure but before the line was opened beyond that point, thanks to a friendly motorman who allowed me to remain on board while turning his train. We walked along the platform and I had a brief chance to duck partway up one staircase - the station was typical of other stations on the older portion of the metro.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
South Ferry is under land that didn't exist before human intervention.
The N JUDAH MUNI Metro LRV line(that's overpriced trolley cars ) goes to a terminal approx one block from the Pacific Ocean(Route sign 'Ocean Beach'). BTW as to nomenclature, light rail indeed was invented in the early seventies as a politically more acceptable name and to exclide from discussion financial fiascos such as BART. In truth the distinctions blur particularly if you consider engineering "facts". Item, when CTA stopped using the 4000's their fleet was essentially mechanically a bunch of PCC's set up for high platforms and MU. Item, in SF there is fare control at mezzanine level before you descend to the MUNI Metro which is MU, high level platform until it reaches the surface outside downtown. Item, Cleveland has two different classes of equipment sharing ROW--the "light" Shaker Heights lines--low level. pay fare on train but MU capable. and the ? high level "Rapid" an overhead wire MU operation whose ridership is so low some 'trains are two cars but one is closed tu passengers and again pay fare on train at many stations. Then again what is the METRA Electric in Chicago--overhead wire high level platform fare control via electronic faregates--BUT once a part of an FRA regulated Class 1 mainline RR? Even the union distinctions fail as TWU represents the MUNI Railway(includes buses, cable cars etc.) as well as NYCT, BART is organized by SEIU. Go figure.
I think these distinctions are based on history. At some point they no longer make sense. Ie. the Washington Metro runs at high speeds between widely spaced park-n-ride stations, like commuter rail, on the outskirts, but has several stops rather than a train in DC, like heavy rail.
To me, the real distinctions are based on the .
If you have a private, grade separated ROW on rails, its a subway/heavy rail/commuter rail, whether its at grade, on an el, or in the ground. A few suburban grade crossings do not change the definition. Let's just call it rail transit.
If you run on rails in the streets -- and have pedestrians and cars crossing -- its a light rail/trolley -- even with a reserved lane or a subway section in a small part of the system.
If you run on rubber tires in regular traffic, you are a bus.
Running on rubber tires on a private lane -- we don't have much of it, but it would have to be called something else.
Light rail is fine in a small or medium city with compact Downtown -- if you have a network of street rails feeding a subway or two in the Downtown. These cities don't have enough sheer size and density for an extensive rail transit network to be worth the cost.
But we don't have much of that in the U.S. In most small and medium cities, everyone drives. Maybe it will work in Portland, Oregon.
It works in San Diego, I have ridden the Trolley numerous times, especially on the Southern Line and it always has been crowded. San Diego is not a Medium Size City anymore the City is over 1,000,000 and the greater area is closer to 2 million. Maybe not a lot to you folks, but it will passs Philly in population in the next 20 years
the Shaker line in Cleveland is all PROW although much is median strip through Shaker Heights with controlled street crossings. As to utility, from my observation, the Sacremento Light Rail works well--ridership has out paced estimates for several years and extensions are under construction. The San Jose system is another story. Although very well run in curbed off medians it is not sardine packed. The MUNI Metro in SF is a hybrid--the tunnel part is essentially a low capacity(3 artic cars MU) subway and is busy all day. Unfortunately the outlying parts have to contend with traffic--disaster. Schedule adherence is laughable.
[Running on rubber tires on a private lane -- we don't have much of it, but it would have to be called something else.]
A busway. Seattle and Ottawa have them, I think there might be a few others. Supposedly they work quite well.
Paris and Mexico City Subways run on rubber tires
Paris and Mexico City Subways run on rubber tires
So does Montreal.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
In Los Angeles, the Blue Line to Long Beach. It may not be within a block of the ocean, but its damn close.
What would you call the Newark subway?
Light rail (or trolley) on a PROW.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Wasn't there an idea to build a trolley (oh, sorry: light rail) line along 42nd st and probably further down 10th or 11th av some 10 years ago? What was that about?
One of those wonderful half-baked ideas NYC is famous for ... great in theory, totally impractical in practice. Now if 42nd were completely closed to traffic and the streetcars were equipped with battering rams and anti-taxi missiles to cross the avenues ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of those wonderful half-baked ideas NYC is famous for ... great in theory, totally impractical in practice. Now if 42nd were completely closed to traffic and the streetcars were equipped with battering rams and anti-taxi missiles to cross the avenues ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Build an el for the LRV's above 42nd St.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
PLEASE..even MENTIONING an elevated rail line in midtown just sent Robert Moses body spinning in its grave! Lets see if we can get it spinning faster! :>)
PLEASE..even MENTIONING an elevated rail line in midtown just sent Robert Moses body spinning in its grave! Lets see if we can get it spinning faster! :>)
Spin, baby, spin! :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Why? Maybe someone can be convinced to put roadways adjacent to the tracks!
Yes, its a mistake to have a non-grade-separate line, but it has a lot of poltical support. So what do you do? STUDY IT AGAIN!
You need grade separation to get anywhere in NYC. Otherwise, you might as well have a bus.
we have 2 TWO so called """ light rail " lines here in lost angeles one was put in the right place.....
the BLUE line .... the other the GREEN line didnt even go into the airport !!!!!
the third rail project is the HEAVY RAIL RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE!!!..
................ remeinds me of atlanta !!!!!!!!!!! ...................
we have 2 TWO so called """ light rail " lines here in lost angeles one was put in the right place.....
the BLUE line .... the other the GREEN line didnt even go into the airport !!!!!
the third rail project is the HEAVY RAIL RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE!!!..
................ remeinds me of atlanta !!!!!!!!!!! ...................
To answer your question ... Rudy G. dusted off this plan, the 42nd Street portion, I think it was last year that he raised the trial baloon. He also wants the #7 extended to Javits Center & Madison Sq Garden.
Mr t__:^)
Since we're on the subject of light rail, I thought I'd bring everyone up to date.
The southwest corridor extension is coming along nicely. All trackwork is in place, and the stations are taking shape. Overhead catenary has been strung as far south as Evans Ave., and support towers have been installed further almost to Hampden Ave. Catenary is also in place on the southern end of the line from the open cut through downtown Littleton all the way to Mineral Ave. It looks as if the extension will be ready for operation in July.
I am in the process of putting together a feature section on Denver's light rail system, by popular demand. It's coming soon.
(Denver Light rail)
Got grade separation? How about a Downtown tunnel built or planned?
How about going up to Golden to the Coors Brewery?
in denver ???? not a chance !!!! DENVERs rail lines are TOO SHORT AND CHEAP!
now !!!!! you should check out SALT LAKE CITY UTAHS new light rail !!!!!!
Well, as a matter of fact, the idea of a 16th St. subway was tossed around at one time. Anyway, the article I'm working on describes the line in detail, along with future lines, so I won't give it away here.
Do I detect our R-9 fan acquiring some affection for trolleys ?
Mr t__:^)
saw it last november on my greyhound trip back to the los angeles area.....
BRAND NEW LIGHT RAIL IN DOWNTOWN SALT LAKE CITY ............( utah ) ....... !!!!!!!!!
Yeah, and guess what? They have NO railfan windows. Hahahahaha!
yes they DO !!! HA HA HA !! anyway have you been there wise guy haaaaaa !!!!
Yes, as a matte of fact I have been there. The cars they are using are te last part of an order for San Diego Trolley. And when I was there, the door was shut, the curtain down.
Real nice guy you are, guess you don't ever want me to send you photos of the Redbirds in Los Angeles.....
i did recieve picture of REDBIRDS R -30s in glendale on a movie lot 134& 210 freeways here in los angeles
and this nice person loaded the pictures and E MAILED it to me !!!
so !!! i welcome any good REDBIRD SHOTS and one day i hope to own a SCANNER so I can e mail PHOTOS BACK !
i ma not selfish or ego diven nad to prove it i am offering a CHICAGO CTA RAIL audio tape ...... FREE!!!
e mail me and snend address info and its yours !!!! salaamallah@yahoo.com
i did see san diego once got to go there again !!!!!
In a metropolitan area you can have: heavy mass-transit (subway), heavy or light rail between cities (interurban), light rail (trolley) on the street or a private ROW, long haul heavy rail (Amtrak). As others have said here LRV doesn't mean one car ... take Boston where they link two artriculated or four cars. Back in the 60's, when I was there it was two linked PCCs. The first guy had it harder, as he had to drive & collect fares. For street loading, especially if the street is wide enough for a private ROW, LRV make a lot of since.
Mr t__:^)
Because of all the attractions in the Orlando area, I feel that a
good mass transit system is definitely needed, whether it is in the
form of light rail, heavy rail (subway), or monorail.
It will never happen. Mass transit never has its backbone in tourism, especially seasonal tourism.
NYC TRANSIT
Fascist? Depends on how you define it, I guess. The late Walt Disney was a left-leaning capitalist who supported the Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution with his personal fortune, and who also believed that only government officials and police should be allowed to own guns - no hunting, no private gun ownership of any kind.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their is a thin line between Facism (extreme right beliefs) and Communism (extreme left beliefs). What both have in common is a disarming of their populations and total control of media, industry and cultural institutions. Both usually crush their opponents through the use of brute force.
Regarding "Uncle" Walt and his wretched empire. There is more to his squeeky clean legacy than meets the eye. Among other things he was a BIG self-booster: outside of Mickey Mouse he created NO OTHER characters that have become syonomous with his company. He was a failed artist who used the talents of others (without ever giving credit) and -- ARE YOU SITTING DOWN -- made his early money with pornographic "underground" cartoons during the 1930's and early 40's. All of the above (and more) is in a biography (the name escapes me) on Disney by a well-known reseacher.
And don't forget, Fidel did not start out as a commie -- he approached the U.S. for help but we wanted him to be OUR puppet regime. He said no. The Russkies came to him with open arms (after all, they saw the advantage of a Caribbean satellite country and were drooling over the prospect of Cuba coming over to their "side"). Obviously, whomever gives you the better offer is the one you're going to be lying in bed with.
Doug aka BMTman
Ike did the same to ... Oh no I am getting too far off toppic and I will stop
...total control of media, industry and cultural institutions.
Bingo! The truly sad part of it is that most Americans are so blind to this that they jump on any chance to allow Disney into their lives and communities. We've been brainwashed into accepting Disney as a wholesome part of Americana, right up there with a nice home in the suburbs with a nice lawn and two cars in the garage. Don't think for a moment that company doesn't have a very disturbing social agenda. Like all else about Disney, it's all very pretty until you begin to dig below the surface, and you don't have to dig very far.
Besides, I always liked Looney Tunes better anyway. At least Warner Brothers had the integrity to make their social commentary by satirizing the existing reality, as opposed to trying to create a utopian fantasy. Don't forget how the darkest episodes of the 20th Century involved groups of fanatics attempting to implement their own utopian fantasies.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Don't think for a moment that company doesn't have a very disturbing social agenda. Like all else about Disney, it's all very pretty until you begin to dig below the surface, and you don't have to dig very far.
Absolutely. Which is one of the reasons we've never been to Disney World, Disneyland, etc., nor do we ever plan to go.
Don't forget how the darkest episodes of the 20th Century involved groups of fanatics attempting to implement their own utopian fantasies.
As one who recites Kaddish every Friday night for the uncountable victims of one of those fantasies, Amen and Amen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wretched empire? Social agenda? Next we'll hearng our lives are controlled by the Tri-Lateral commission!
Disney's social agenda is the same as any other big company in a developed country which has long ago met people's basic needs: to convince people that they can meet other needs (belonging, status, achievement) by spending money and purchasing its products and services.
Yes this message is drubbed into people over and over again, especially on TV, especially in commercials, but no conspiracy could ever be that good. It's a conspiracy of interests. And Disney is largely forced to give the people what they want in any event.
If you go to Epcot, with its corporate sponsored exhibits, you do sense a 1930s to 1960s Worlds Fair mentality -- that big companies will create the future and solve the world's problems.
But the 1980s, when a good chunk of the country's big corporations went bust (including, almost, Disney) should have diabused most people of the idea of a 1,000 year corporate reich. Creative destruction still goes on, and the government by and large hasn't stopped it even when it has tried.
Disney is in the same business as PT Barnum "Give-em what they want" and his other famous quote.
Back to the basic question, the monorail at Disney moves great numbers of people and is quite effective. Then entire Disney experience takes us back to a an experience where there are no cars allowed. You must walk or use a shared "Transit" ride. When you get there you check your car at the gate.
I loved the Monorail, and the whole Disney transit experience. We rented a car (its not much cheaper than other ways to get from the airport) but seldom used it.
Lets say that NYC continues to be a world class city, and the subway continues to the the heart of it, far into the future. Here are some things that the subway could learn from Disney.
1) Carpeted floors. You'd need a different class of passenger for that one.
2) Enter the car on one side, exit on the other. You'd need to install island platforms at local stations, and side platforms on the express -- a big cost. It might be worth it in the more congested stations.
3) The trains are so quiet, you can't even hear them coming.
4) Railfan seat next to the driver in the cab. If the cabs were a little bigger, the Transit Museum could probably charge $5 a ride for railfan rides, off peak and on the weekends.
On the other hand, at the end of five days those announcements were getting on my nerves.
2) Enter the car on one side, exit on the other. You'd need to install island platforms at local stations, and side platforms on the express -- a big cost. It might be worth it in the more congested stations.
How would you handle transfers between local and express? Make everyone walk up to the mezzanine?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Enter on one side exit on the other, transfers from local to express)
You'd still open two doors, but those entering or leaving the station would enter or leave on the right, while those transferring would enter or leave on the left. You'd have people pushing past each other, but with double the doors you'd have half the problem.
Disney is in the same business as PT Barnum "Give-em what they want" and his other famous quote.
Pimps, whores and crack dealers are also in the business of "give-em what they want."
I think "There's a sucker born every minute" more accurately decribes the Disney Corporation's corporate philospohy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
... what I have heard and seen about the monorail system, it is a rapid transit system, but technically not related to a municipal NYC
subway-type system.
I recall reading once (but cannot cite where) that Disney's monorail is considered an Intermediate Capacity Transit System, on the same level as Scarborough's (Toronto) LRT and Vancouver's Skytrain. Over the last few years, they have converted from a bunch of single leaf doors and bench seating (no standee room) to double-leaf doors with significant standing room. Dwell time is VERY long, however.
--Mark
My short answer is that, technologically speaking, the advantages of monorails are not sufficient to overcome their deficits. I say this even though I have studied some very knowledgeable and well-written materials in their defense.
I would not shrug them off as merely "amusement rides" but I need to be the evidence that, once the "techno-sizzle" effect is removed, they deserve to be considered in any but the narrowest applications.
The only monorails that I can think of that were specifically designed as transit systems are the one in Wuppertal (Germany) and the one in Tokyo that goes to Haneda Airport.
I thought I read that the Wuppertal line was dismantled within the last decade, after running for more than 80 years. I think the Tokyo monorail has been around 40 years old.
Is the Tokyo one overrunning or underruning?
It's overrunning.
Why not check out: http://www.monorails.org/index.html
They have links to all the monorails with pix.
How about the Monorail in Seattle from Downtown to the Space Needle, I know people use it daily to commute from downtown to work after they get off the ferries
It was originally part of the Seattle World's Fair. I was referring strictly to mass transit systems. Anyway, the website that I posted has them all.
heres an really AMUSEMENT RIDE..!!! ( a joke ha! ha! ha! ha!..)
its called "" THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER !!!! """".......
I thought I read that the Wuppertal line was dismantled within the last decade, after running for more than 80 years.
AFIAK, the Wuppertal line is still in operation.
CH.
I'm glad to hear it. I was a little hazy on this. Maybe it was closed and rebuilt or maybe I was completely wrong.
Could any of you people in the DC area tell me about what time the last train from Union Station leaves to go to either National Airport or connect to the Vienna Station. I am taking a 530PM Amtrack from Penn Station to Wash and have not made my mind up to rent a car at National or have a family member pick me up. Even with my 30 pct Discount a car (compact) rental at JFK is about 70.00 plus tax per day. and I do not want to drive after coming off a all night German Rail and a 8 hour plane trip. American Air is being crappy for this type of frequent flyer ticket and is not letting me fly in and out of Dullas, only point origin in USA which is JFK or Chic
Check their web site www.wmata.com. According to your post you should arrive in DC Union at about 2030 hrs - should not be a problem. Last Metro trains normally depart terminals between 2330 and 0015.
Go to wmata.com and click on the Ride Guide. It is pretty self explanatory after that. If you tell it you are starting and/or ending at a subway station, put "M" or "METRO" after the station name (exapmle: Union Station M).
On the topic of the DC Metro, why is there a third track at the National Airport Metro station, that ends on either side of it?
For terminating extra trains into the District.
Originally, the Blue Line ran from Stadium-Armory to National Airport.
A few years later, when the Yellow Line had been opened, first to National Airport and then extended to Huntington (which was originally supposed to be the Blue Line terminus, but anyway), the Blue Line continued to terminate at National Airport (until the extension to Van Dorn Street was opened), and that track was used to turn at least some Blue Line trains (mostly in the rush, I think; otherwise, I don't think the capacity was needed at National Airport station).
-- Tim
This trak was used when the blue line terminated here. Yellow line trains would use the outer tracks, while the blue line trains would pull in, open on the Huntington-bound side, operator would go to the north end of the train, open on the Addison Road/Gallery Place side, and then close up and leave to go to Addison Road.
Wouldn't it make more sense to make a connecting flight instead of all that crap with Amtrak? Commuting from the airport to the RR station, then doing the opposite in Washington?
Yes it would, but American Airlines in their wisdom, states on this type of frequent flyer ticket, the only stopovers I am allowed are at the point of departure and arrival into the USA, which outbound is Chicago, and inbound JFK. If I want to go into Washington, I would have to do it on my own. Since It is weekday and no Saturday Night Stay. The Round Trip From JFK to Dullas where I want to go is almost $400.00 RT. Even to National, I would only save 10 bucks. The days of the old Shuttle Fares are history. I may not do it, and stay in NYC, or reroute myself back into Chicago, to stay with family there. I have not been in Chicago since Nelson Rockafeller Died
...what will happen to the B/D/Q?
Will the D/Q run up Broadway, and will the B split into two trains, one in Brooklyn and another in Manhattan/Bronx? Would the N resume express service over the MB?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The service pattern will probably mimic the plan used during the 86-88 closure. No N trains over the bridge, I'm afraid.
>>>The service pattern will probably mimic the plan used during the 86-88 closure<<
Which was? D/Q on Broadway?
The'll probably just move the B/D/Q over. That would be my guess. But with the need to run the B and D to 34th, they'll need more cars, and you wonder where they'll get them.
Since there is a switch at 63rd and Lex, my guess is the Q runs through to the Queens line when 63rd Street opens.
I keep wondering what will be of Grand street, the very busy Chinatown station for the B,D,and Q.
The station is always crowded, and is really too small. Perhaps the TA should close it while the A/B tracks are closed, and remodel it when there is a return to service. I keep wondering what will be of the 6th avenue line, which alot more people use than Broadway.
I guess there will be alot more walking in the future of those who use Grand street.
My guess is that people use Grand Street because it has so many trains. All those people will just walk two blocks to Canal Street.
The TA seems to have this thing about not closing stations. You are right, Grand Street should be closed during the renovation.
Probably they will run the D from Grand St to 205th, Make the Q a 7/24 via Bdwy and 63rd St, B a Rush Hour Only in Manhatten Local, Run the M back on the Brighton. Run a second B to Astoria via West End. Just ideas
In 1987, during the North side closing they did the following:
B-To Queensboro Plaza except rush hours-to Astoria_-Broadway exp
K-replaced B service on Central Park West and ran to WTC.
D-205th st Bronx-34st Manhattan
D-Coney Island to 57th st & 7th ave via Broadway exp.
Q-Brigton Beach to 57th and 7th ave via Broadway exp.
S-Sixth ave shuttle 57th st & 6th to Grand st-6th ave local.
Given the inovative service oriented types at Jay st, I think we
should expect the same thing, except Q service to 179th St on the
Queens blvd line.
Highly unlikely will the Broadway Q run to 179th. As I stated before, any service running from Queens Blvd. thru 63rd. St will be via Sixth Ave. I'd imaging they'd finally implement the planned V line when it becomes necessary.
Question Asked, How do you know it will be the V, everybody is assuming itb will be V Why Not H,K,T.
It could be any of them, but the V has the right colored circle (Orange) to run on the Sixth Ave. line.
I remember seeing "V" signs on the pre GOH R30 side signs, so this letter had to have been reserved for the 63rd. St. line many, many years ago.
Maybe they put it in there for the Second Avenue Subway.
Maybe they put it in there for the Second Avenue Subway.
Words and phrases synonymous with "Second Avenue Subway":
1) unicorn
2) elf
3) Santa Claus
4) Easter Bunny
5) Enchanted Forest
6) Lochnest Monster
7) The Man in the Moon
8) The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
9) Cinderella
10) Leprachaun
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They are all fairy tales. They don't exist.
"7) The Man in the Moon"
What about Neil Armstrong and crew?
What about Neil Armstrong and crew?
He wasn't the man in the moon, he was the man on the moon. Also, Armstrong wasn't there too long.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You have to admit something big has changed in NYC, however. I was looking at 1990-98 population trends the other day -- almost the older cities continue to shrink rapidly, but not NYC. In fact, if they do a decent count job the population should come in over 8 million. Subway ridership is up 65 percent since 1994, to a level I though to be impossible.
If the public assistance population falls below 500,000 -- before the rest of the country drops the entire cost of servicing it in our laps -- the city may have the money to do some things. If Upstate NY were ever to turn around and get off the dole also -- there are a few good signs -- we may have more money in the state than we have in a long time.
No guarantees, but things that seemed impossible a few years ago seem possible now. If our state and local governments were not so incompetant and corrupt, we'd be doing great right now. The people of the state are certainly doing their part.
You have to admit something big has changed in NYC, however. I was looking at 1990-98 population trends the other day -- almost the older cities continue to shrink rapidly, but not NYC. In fact, if they do a decent count job the population should come in over 8 million. Subway ridership is up 65 percent since 1994, to a level I though to be impossible.
If the public assistance population falls below 500,000 -- before the rest of the country drops the entire cost of servicing it in our laps -- the city may have the money to do some things. If Upstate NY were ever to turn around and get off the dole also -- there are a few good signs -- we may have more money in the state than we have in a long time.
No guarantees, but things that seemed impossible a few years ago seem possible now. If our state and local governments were not so incompetant and corrupt, we'd be doing great right now. The people of the state are certainly doing their part.
Hey, I think it would be great if the long-dreamed-for 2nd Ave. Subway could finally be built. The only thing is, that so much else needs to be done with the existing system, that the 2nd Ave. Subway always has to take a back seat to everything else. Lets see what happens with the Manny B. They may eventually have to build a replacement tunnel. Parts of the system that are in disrepair need to be attended to. They are always placing new car orders. Maybe if the TA would commit to keeping rolling stock for 50-60 years and keep OH'ing, that money used for new rolling stock every 35 years could be put toward the new line. There are a lot of stations that didn't need the extensive rehabbing that they got. A little here, a little there, and it all adds up to the cost of building the 2nd Ave. Subway. I agree, get the welfare people off the dole. Its down to 500,000 by now? I remember when NYC had 1,000,000 people on the dole. Do you realize that 1,000,000 people is more than many small and mid-size cities have for their entire population? Damn!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Hey, I think it would be great if the long-dreamed-for 2nd Ave. Subway could finally be built. The only thing is, that so much else needs to be done with the existing system, that the 2nd Ave. Subway always has to take a back seat to everything else. Lets see what happens with the Manny B. They may eventually have to build a replacement tunnel. Parts of the system that are in disrepair need to be attended to. They are always placing new car orders. Maybe if the TA would commit to keeping rolling stock for 50-60 years and keep OH'ing, that money used for new rolling stock every 35 years could be put toward the new line. There are a lot of stations that didn't need the extensive rehabbing that they got. A little here, a little there, and it all adds up to the cost of building the 2nd Ave. Subway. I agree, get the welfare people off the dole. Its down to 500,000 by now? I remember when NYC had 1,000,000 people on the dole. Do you realize that 1,000,000 people is more than many small and mid-size cities have for their entire population? Damn!]
Another way to look at it--it took about 7500 people four years to build the original IRT without power tools and dump trucks.
And we have 500,000 people doing nothing, and can't build a Second Avenue Subway.
Something is rotten in the State of Trainmark!
But figure with the government running things it would take an additional $1 billion/year for a decade to build the RPA's Metrolink, which includes a four track 2nd Avenue subway into the boros, one stop access to JFK, and other goodies, and maybe another $1 billion/year to build a dream system. That could easily be financed without raising taxes if bloat were removed from the City and State budgets (NYC social services budget alone, $6 billion).
Something else to consider--if we went to OPTO and eliminated unnecessary token clerk positions, we could build a full 2nd Avenue Subway with the savings alone.
As a Station Agent I object to your opinion. If we go away, who will watch the stations- a person at Jay Street? fare jumpers will no tyhat no one is there and fare jumping will incerase. I ride PATH wiith just cameras at stations and I have reported via phone to them of incidents of illegal vendors, smoking inside the paid area, homeless sleeping just inside the turnstiles and have gotten no PA Police.
Our role is changing- at some point we wont be selling tokens but we will sell MetroCards and we will bve mobile within a station. Cameras break- vandalism happens.
I worked at one station with cameras-someone spray painted the cameras so my monitors saw nothing. I called my field office and it took two hours for a supervisor to come and verify the facts (just as I reported) and another hour for a maintainer to spend the ten minutes to again verify the facts (yes- they were painted over) and then 5 minutes to clean the cameras.
Now- let's assume we were not there and forbid an incident happened in the underpass--how long till the cops come or wouild there be microphones too? (Yes- microphones can also face vandalism)
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT**
[As a Station Agent I object to your opinion. If we go away, who will watch the stations- a person at Jay Street? fare jumpers will no tyhat no one is there and fare jumping will incerase. I ride PATH wiith just cameras at stations and I have reported via phone to them of incidents of illegal vendors, smoking inside the paid area, homeless sleeping just inside the turnstiles and have gotten no PA Police.
Our role is changing- at some point we wont be selling tokens but we will sell MetroCards and we will bve mobile within a station. Cameras break- vandalism happens.
I worked at one station with cameras-someone spray painted the cameras so my monitors saw nothing. I called my field office and it took two hours for a supervisor to come and verify the facts (just as I reported) and another hour for a maintainer to spend the ten minutes to again verify the facts (yes- they were painted over) and then 5 minutes to clean the cameras.
Now- let's assume we were not there and forbid an incident happened in the underpass--how long till the cops come or wouild there be microphones too? (Yes- microphones can also face vandalism)]
It seems to me that the fare jumping problem can be easily solved by installing iron maidens, which is what the TA is doing.
Vandalism and crime are always problems; but as it is, a station agent can't see most of the station anyway. I supect that good coverage with cameras, and a force deployed Bratton-style to areas that exhibit trouble, are the keys to making things even safer than they are at present.
I haven't noticed problems on PATH, BTW. I'm sure they do occur, but then, they occur in the subways as well.
Vandalism and crime are always problems; but as it is, a station agent can't see most of the station anyway. I supect that good coverage with cameras, and a force deployed Bratton-style to areas that exhibit trouble, are the keys to making things even safer than they are at present.
Miami has no station agents, but they do have closed circuit cameras all over the stations and they do have an armed guard at each station. Noone dares to hop the turnstiles, even though its possible. They know that they won't be able to get away with fare evasion.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Miami has no station agents, but they do have closed circuit cameras all over the stations and they do have an armed guard at each station. Noone dares to hop the turnstiles, even though its possible. They know that they won't be able to get away with fare evasion.]
That really seems to work on PATH as well, even here in the big bad City. And I've seen people use the convenience phone when the turnstyles ate their money, and get buzzed right in.
Customer service phones would allow multilingual phone service too for those who need directions.
Customer service phones would allow multilingual phone service too for those who need directions.
In New York, multilingual would mean at least a dozen languages:
1-English
2-Spanish
3-Russian
4-Arabic
5-Creole
6-Patois
7-French
8-Italian
9-Swahili
10-German
11-Polish
12-Afrikkans
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And about 75 in LA WELCOME TO AMERICA NOW LEARN ENGLISH
RIGHT ON, BOB
[And about 75 in LA WELCOME TO AMERICA NOW LEARN ENGLISH]
Without commenting on that,* it seems to me that one of the main reasons to offer multilingual help/maps/etc. is as an aid to the tourist. I've appreciated such help (or lamented its lack) when visiting cities overseas.
*I lied about not commenting--it seems to me that while we have no obligation to serve major groups of non-native speakers, we also have no reason not to.
[In New York, multilingual would mean at least a dozen languages:
1-English
2-Spanish
3-Russian
4-Arabic
5-Creole
6-Patois
7-French
8-Italian
9-Swahili
10-German
11-Polish
12-Afrikkans]
You've have to add Korean, Portugese, Vietnamese, Urdu, and several dialects of Chinese. On the other hand, there wouldn't be any need for Swahili or Afrikkans. And what is "Patois"?
You've have to add Korean, Portugese, Vietnamese, Urdu, and several dialects of Chinese. On the other hand, there wouldn't be any need for Swahili or Afrikkans. And what is "Patois"?
I said at least a dozen languages. Now its up to i7, with what you just added. Patois (pronounced pa-twa) is the native tongue of the West Indies, nostly Jamaican. English is their second language, as the West Indies was once a British colony. I know there are loads of West Indian people in Brooklyn. I know you didn't ask, but Creole is the native tongue of Haitians, which there are also plenty of in NYC.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
95 percent of the people who speak Afrkanos(Spelling) the Dutch Version in South Africa. Speak English. If they can read, too bad. send them to school to learn, after all our grandparents from Europe had to learn to speak English to get along.
95 percent of the people who speak Afrkanos(Spelling) the Dutch Version in South Africa. Speak English. If they can read, too bad. send them to school to learn, after all our grandparents from Europe had to learn to speak English to get along.
I agree. there shouldn't be any exceptions. If you want to come to our country, learn our language, and our customs. Be American, just like everybody else who came here. The Cubans in Miami want everything Cuban. Because they were forced to flee Cuba, what they did was set up their own little Cuba here. You would think you're in Cuba. Alot of them are American citizens but speak no English. Even the government officials are Cuban. They love American freedom and American government, but everything has to be Cuban. We're referred to as "gringos" or "Anglos". They love to take over neighborhoods. They have pretty much secured Dade County, except for some black enclaves. Now they're taking over Broward County, where I am. The takeover of my neighborhood started with Hurricane Andrew. They left their devistated homes in South Dade and started moving up to South Broward. Since then, others followed in droves. Because this is a developing area, and homes and apartments are constantly being built, guess who's moving in? There are neighborhoods in Dade County that if you are driving through and need directions, you better know Spanish. that's what is becoming here in my neighborhood. Like I said, they love American freedom and our form of government, but everything else has to be just like in Cuba. The heart of it all is in the Little Havana neighborhood in Miami, where, even the street signs are in Spanish. The hub of little Havana is Calle Ocho (8th Street). BTW, you haven't lived until you've been in a Chinese restaurant that served fried plantains and rice and beans with Chinese food.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re Miami Cubans who don't speak English]
While I certainly think all immigrants should make it their business to learn English ASAP, I do believe people sometimes exaggerate the English-speaking ability of earlier immigrant generations. It's often believed that the people who came over in the great wave of European immigration from about 1880 to 1920 learned perfect English almost as soon as they stepped off the boats at Ellis Island. In fact, it's been shown that many of the immigrants never became fully at ease in English. Factors such as age at entry, educational levels, occupations and residential locations obviously were important. People who came over as small children and were raised in predominantly non-immigrant areas surely picked up English faster and more thoroughly than those who came over in middle age and lived in Little Italy- or Chinatown-style enclaves.
I even can cite personal experience. My grandmother was born in Italy in the mid-1890s, came to America at around age 20, and died at 80. During the last 12 or so years of her life, when I was on the scene and old enough to understand things, her English was so poor as to be barely a half-step above nonexistent. She was very difficult to understand in person and impossible to understand on the telephone. Although my grandmother supposedly had been somewhat better in English during her younger years, she never had been anything close to fluent. I highly doubt that her experience was in any way unusual.
[re Miami Cubans who don't speak English]
While I certainly think all immigrants should make it their business to learn English ASAP, I do believe people sometimes exaggerate the English-speaking ability of earlier immigrant generations. It's often believed that the people who came over in the great wave of European immigration from about 1880 to 1920 learned perfect English almost as soon as they stepped off the boats at Ellis Island. In fact, it's been shown that many of the immigrants never became fully at ease in English. Factors such as age at entry, educational levels, occupations and residential locations obviously were important. People who came over as small children and were raised in predominantly non-immigrant areas surely picked up English faster and more thoroughly than those who came over in middle age and lived in Little Italy- or Chinatown-style enclaves.
I even can cite personal experience. My grandmother was born in Italy in the mid-1890s, came to America at around age 20, and died at 80. During the last 12 or so years of her life, when I was on the scene and old enough to understand things, her English was so poor as to be barely a half-step above nonexistent. She was very difficult to understand in person and impossible to understand on the telephone. Although my grandmother supposedly had been somewhat better in English during her younger years, she never had been anything close to fluent. I highly doubt that her experience was in any way unusual.
The people that I'm talking about don't want to speak English. It is mostly the older Cubans that never learned English. The younger ones know it fluently, but because they don't have to use it, they don't. Believe me, in their neighborhoods, which like I said, mine is becoming, they don't have to speak English. You would have to experience Miami and surrounding area for yourself. It is Cuba on American soil. Just remember to bring your passport. You will also need to go through customs. And, for your convenience, please bring a bilingual interpreter with you.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the Govt Agencies adhear to the laws, especially the US Govt, by not printing ballots in Spanish, Chineese, etc, stop giving the tests for citizenship in other languages etc. Then they will learn the language fast. That is why most school districts have ESL classes for free in their school systems for adults. The number one thing that United this country of ours in the past of all the different cultural backrounds in the past for 200 years was language ENGLISH, not the last 24 years forget it. Look what is happening around the world when countries have more then one language, friction, fighting between the people. You only have to look North 300 miles to Canada and the French Quebec and English Canada. Pretty soon we will be the Dis-United States of America. ^The 4 Border States with Mexico will once again become Mexico if the govt does not do something. Most countries protect their borders, why dont we.
Maybe when Castro goes, they will go back to Cuba. The problem is the younger generation don t know anything about the country. Cuba has never been democratic, Spanish Rule, 4 Years American, followed by 50 years various petty dictators. I remember seein a T Shirt in Miami back in the 80s WILL THE LAST AMERICAN IN DADE COUNTY< PLEASE TAKE DOWN THE FLAG, same thing in LA and most major cities these days
I remember seein a T Shirt in Miami back in the 80s WILL THE LAST AMERICAN IN DADE COUNTY< PLEASE TAKE DOWN THE FLAG
Its been a very popular saying. I didn't even know they made a t-shirt out of it. It goes more like "If you're the last American to leave, don't forget to take the flag with you". UI guess there are many variations.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I agree. there shouldn't be any exceptions. If you want to come to our country, learn our language, and our customs. Be American, just like everybody else who came here. The Cubans in Miami want everything Cuban. Because they were forced to flee Cuba, what they did was set up their own little Cuba here. You would think you're in Cuba. Alot of them are American citizens but speak no English.]
Historically, older immigrants haven't learned English very well--it's not that easy to learn a language at an advanced age, even when you have the time and the money to attend classes and practice. But their children do, and that's what counts.
Historically, older immigrants haven't learned English very well--it's not that easy to learn a language at an advanced age, even when you have the time and the money to attend classes and practice. But their children do, and that's what counts.
Typically the younger ones know English, but won't use it, because they don't have to use it. They use it only when addressing what they refer to as a "gringo". Like I said in another post, if you take a trip to Miami, don't forget your passport, and bring an interpretor.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Quite true. English isn't easy to master later in life, what with all the exceptions to pronunciation and the like. My folks picked it up as they went along after coming here, and while their English is fluent, it isn't perfect. One thing that throws them a curve every time is definite vs indefinite articles; i. e., when and when not to use "a", "the", "this", etc. Their mother tongue, Lithuanian, has no articles, so it's understandable.
The problems with translation would be solved if everyone learned a common second language.
[Quite true. English isn't easy to master later in life, what with all the exceptions to pronunciation and the like. My folks picked it up as they went along after coming here, and while their English is fluent, it isn't perfect. One thing that throws them a curve every time is definite vs indefinite articles; i. e., when and when not to use "a", "the", "this", etc. Their mother tongue, Lithuanian, has no articles, so it's understandable.]
My Grandfather was born in Lithuania . . .
Really? Whereabouts? My mother was born and raised in Kaunas, while my father grew up on a farm near Utena.
We are a nation of immigrants, but the reason immigration was a successful policy stems from the immediate immersion of the immigrants in the business community. To succeed, they learned English, so they could communicate with others around them. You don't speak English? You don't get the job. You don't work? Fine, you can starve. You know, that's one heck of an incentive to learn English. Now there is no incentive, and we have become a nation of many subcommunities rather than one nation as our Founding Fathers intended.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We are a nation of immigrants, but the reason immigration was a successful policy stems from the immediate immersion of the immigrants in the business community. To succeed, they learned English, so they could communicate with others around them. You don't speak English? You don't get the job. You don't work? Fine, you can starve. You know, that's one heck of an incentive to learn English. Now there is no incentive, and we have become a nation of many subcommunities rather than one nation as our Founding Fathers intended.
Don't I know it. Whenever I go into Miami, I feel like I forgot something - my passport.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I felt the same when I lived in Los Angeles. Living in Hawaii I am a Minority, and I tell my Filipina Wife that her English has gotten worse since we moved here, because she has Filipina friends and fellow workers and all the talk is in Tagalog, and in Dialetic. I yelled at her Mom and her earlier this evening, the only way their English will improve is to speak it more. It worked for about 10 Minutes. The Best bumper sticker I saw was in LA about 8 years ago Welcome to the USA NO LEARN ENGLISH:::::
[I felt the same when I lived in Los Angeles. Living in Hawaii I am a Minority, and I tell my Filipina Wife that her English has gotten worse since we moved here, because she has Filipina friends and fellow workers and all the talk is in Tagalog, and in Dialetic. I yelled at her Mom and her earlier this evening, the only way their English will improve is to speak it more. It worked for about 10 Minutes. The Best bumper sticker I saw was in LA about 8 years ago Welcome to the USA NO LEARN ENGLISH:::::]
I think the native Hawaiians have a somewhat different take on that!
[In New York, multilingual would mean at least a dozen languages:
1-English
2-Spanish
3-Russian
4-Arabic
5-Creole
6-Patois
7-French
8-Italian
9-Swahili
10-German
11-Polish
12-Afrikkans]
What about Mandarin/Cantonese?
In any case, as per common practice I'd stick to the top six or eight languages.
How about sticking to the top ONE - ENGLISH! This is America, not China, Mexico, India, Germany, Japan, Egypt, Russia, Italy ... I could go on and on. For our visitors I will be gracious and offer them assistance, but for those who wish to come to the Land of Opportunity, I say let them earn the privilege of being here. One of the responsibilities, as I see it, of living in a country is to speak and read the language. When I lived abroad for one year, many years ago, I spoke the language of the country before I went (not fluently, to be sure, but well enough to handle the basics); after I arrived I not only used that language to the almost total exclusion of English but I took the time to learn the regional language as well. Now, after nearly 30 years back in the States, I don't speak either very well, but I know that if I were to return I could manage quite comfortably without any need for an interpreter or an English-language guidebook.
We don't need to coddle immigrants; if we do, they will forever remain foreigners, happy for the advantages of this country but whining about what they miss in the old, and will never become Americans.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[How about sticking to the top ONE - ENGLISH! This is America, not China, Mexico, India, Germany, Japan, Egypt, Russia, Italy ... I could go on and on. For our visitors I will be gracious and offer them assistance, but for those who wish to come to the Land of Opportunity, I say let them earn the privilege of being here. One of the responsibilities, as I see it, of living in a country is to speak and read the language.]
Multilingual MVMs and subway maps are a smart idea even though I agree that immigrants should learn English. As you note, foreign visitors are deserving of assistance. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect all of them to know English. There's obviously no way to program a MVM to offer different languages when used by a tourist but to be in English only when used by an immigrant. As a result, offering foreign languages is a reasonable convenience to tourists even if it gives some immigrants a free ride, so to speak.
[How about sticking to the top ONE - ENGLISH! This is America, not China, Mexico, India, Germany, Japan, Egypt, Russia, Italy ... I could go on and on. For our visitors I will be gracious and offer them assistance, but for those who wish to come to the Land of Opportunity, I say let them earn the privilege of being here. One of the responsibilities, as I see it, of living in a country is to speak and read the language. When I lived abroad for one year, many years ago, I spoke the language of the country before I went (not fluently, to be sure, but well enough to handle the basics); after I arrived I not only used that language to the almost total exclusion of English but I took the time to learn the regional language as well. Now, after nearly 30 years back in the States, I don't speak either very well, but I know that if I were to return I could manage quite comfortably without any need for an interpreter or an English-language guidebook.
We don't need to coddle immigrants; if we do, they will forever remain foreigners, happy for the advantages of this country but whining about what they miss in the old, and will never become Americans.]
It's easy to say that as am educated, middle class individual--the reality for many who come here is considerably less elevated, though.
I don't think you can "Americanize" people who come past a certain age. But their children will be Americans, and from my perspective, that's what counts--so I reserve my contempt for idiocies like bilingual education that attempt to deprive them of that right.
It seems to me that the fare jumping problem can be easily solved by installing iron maidens,which is what the TA is doing.
Imagine iron maidens at Grand Central. With those crowds, it would take an hour just to get INTO the subway!
--Mark
Thanks, Mark! Carrying his point one step further:
Do away with all human Bank tellers- there are ATMs!
Do away with window service at the Post Office- they have machines
Do away with humans at the grocery store- we can scan our own stuff and put an alarm at the doors if we dont pay the machine.
we can ...
Yes- I think you get my point. Some people wont deal with machines--look at ATMs- banks still have human tellers and yes- the lines are just as long.
Yes- I think you get my point. Some people wont deal with machines--look at ATMs- banks still have human tellers and yes- the lines are just as long.
I can't stand it when I make a telephone call to any kind of business entity and have to go through a maze of recordings and menu selections before I get to talk to a human being. I've even made calls where there was no option to speak to a person. Everything was menu selections, keying in numbers and speaking words very clearly into a recorder. I went through this when I bought a Canon printer at Best Buy and they didn't have any rebate slips left. I had to call to request one. After I hung up, I was hoping the recording device received my name, address and the item I purchased along with the amount of the rebate correctly. Give me the good old days when your call would be answered by "Good morning (afternoon or evening). Such and Such Compamy. How may I help you"?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I stopped pressing 1 to do "x" and just make believe I have a rotary phone. Gets a person every time.
--Mark
I stopped pressing 1 to do "x" and just make believe I have a rotary phone. Gets a person every time.
Yeah, I know that trick, but you can croak waiting for the recording to go through its shpeal.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And, on most systems, "0" will bypass the greetings too and send you directly to an operator.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, on most systems, "0" will bypass the greetings too and send you directly to an operator.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sometimes the recording tells you that. I'll try it on the ones that don't and see what happens. Thanx.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If you were to call my company, your call would be answered by a person.
If you were to call my company, your call would be answered by a person.
last of a dying breed. That is indeed rare these days.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What??? you mean those emotionless things at the postal window counters are HUMAN?
What??? you mean those emotionless things at the postal window counters are HUMAN?
More like humanoids.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[What??? you mean those emotionless things at the postal window counters are HUMAN?]
Actually observed at the Dag Hammarskjold Postal Convenience Center:
-Guy tries to buy some kind of stamp
-Clerk doesn't have it
-Clerk takes some of her money, leaves the counter, and goes over to a vending machine to buy the stamp
-This being the Post Office, the machine eats the clerk's money
[Do away with humans at the grocery store- we can scan our own stuff and put an alarm at the doors if we dont pay the machine.]
I believe that actually has been tried, on an experimental basis. Dunno if it works okay in practice.
While we're on the subject of machines replacing humans (so to speak), I do have to speak out in favor of one thing, namely the pay-at-the-pump gas stations. I try to use them exclusively and find them much better than having to deal, even briefly, with attendants, not to mention much faster.
Self-checkout at the grocery STINKS! It takes that much longer to get someone's attention when the price comes up wrong from the scanner.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right! and some want that in the subway- who wants to wait 40-60 minutes while some "Suit" comes from Jay Street to give you a new MetroCard or they tell you (like PATCO) to mail it in and they'll send a new card (or just pay the turnstile to get out and mail in the bad card).
Relax- we will be here just like Banks still have Humans, grocery stores still have humans, restaurants still have humans, fats food has humans.. why not transit??
[Right! and some want that in the subway- who wants to wait 40-60 minutes while some "Suit" comes from Jay Street to give you a new MetroCard or they tell you (like PATCO) to mail it in and they'll send a new card (or just pay the turnstile to get out and mail in the bad card).]
When a turnstyle eats your money on PATH, you pick up a phone and someone buzzes you right in. It's faster and easier than going back to the booth when your Metrocard has a please swipe again fit.
It can't be said often enough--the PATH stations are unattended, and they're just fine; you don't even notice the difference.
(PATH stations are unattended, and they work just fine)
Hasn't stopped PATH from having a sky-high cost per rider. That's not the best example. The PATH operating cost per ride is over $3.00, vs. $1.17 on the NYC subway.
[(PATH stations are unattended, and they work just fine)
Hasn't stopped PATH from having a sky-high cost per rider. That's not the best example. The PATH operating cost per ride is over $3.00, vs. $1.17 on the NYC subway.]
I would imagine that PATH's farebox recovery ratio is so much worse because it doesn't have anything like the NYC subway's volume. Ridership tends to be more concentrated during rush hours. In addition, PATH maintains 24/7 service and, let's not forget, charges only a dollar.
Poor farebox recovery in no way means that PATH's unstaffed stations are a bad idea. If the stations were staffed, the recovery ratio would be even worse - though not dramatically so, given that there are only 13 stations. On the other hand, having unstaffed stations on the NYC subway, with its 400+ stations (many of which have multiple entrances), would save some serious money.
Given the choice of unmanned stations and OPTO, I'll take OPTO. Lets have one person on the train and one person in the station, before we have two people on the train and one in the station.
There are about 560 train trips at peak hour, vs. 468 stations. Admitedly, there are fewer trips in the off peak hours. That's when manning the stations seem expensive relative to two on a train, because there are fewer trains.
But the real dropoff comes from 12 a.m. to 6 p.m. And that's when you really need someone there -- who wants to be alone underground for 20 minutes? That's when the bad stuff happens.
If we really want to save the big bucks, lets close the subway (except for a modest core system linked to night buses) as discussed earlier. This way, you're cutting jobs no one wants. And overnight construction would become safer, with the trains not running.
[Given the choice of unmanned stations and OPTO, I'll take OPTO. Lets have one person on the train and one person in the station, before we have two people on the train and one in the station.
There are about 560 train trips at peak hour, vs. 468 stations. Admitedly, there are fewer trips in the off peak hours. That's when manning the stations seem expensive relative to two on a train, because there are fewer trains.
But the real dropoff comes from 12 a.m. to 6 p.m. And that's when you really need someone there -- who wants to be alone underground for 20 minutes? That's when the bad stuff happens.]
I'm not advocating wholesale "uninstallation" of station agents. My point is only that it *can* be done, and the proof is no farther away than the nearest PATH station. There are basically two reasons why the agents should be kept on the job; one reason is valid, while one is not. The good reason is that the Transit Authority has a sort of unwritten covenant with its employees, for lack of a better term, that they'll be given a higher degree of job security than found in most places. This goes beyond written contract terms and in some ways is even more binding, at least in a moral if not legal sense. Practice has borne this out, and IMO it's one of the things I respect the most about TA managment (well, just about the only thing, but that's another matter).
Now, the invalid or bad reason for retaining the station agents has to do with security. Locked away in their booths, the station agents are next to worthless when it comes to keeping riders safe. TV cameras and panic buttons would do far more.
I agree with your reasons, but not with which one is invalid. In the drive for efficiency over the past few years, many people have lost their jobs, and had to change jobs, sometimes to one with lower pay. As a result, TA employees have a better deal in the marketplace. They need to offer a better deal in return.
However, I'm not for unmanned stations. The airlines don't have them. Assume that additional station agents (more than the first one) in busy stations would remain -- you'd have someone in Times Square. Your talking about 2,000 people, vs. 3,000 conductors. I'd rather lose the conductors.
But I agree that station agents are worthless in the booth. They should move around the station. If there is just one person on a platform, they should keep an eye on them. If there is more than one, they should go upstairs and look for fare beaters. If someone is loitering, they should radio a police patrol.
No sense keeping them in the booth if they are not selling tokens. They won't be a robbery target if they don't handle money.
with Station Agents no longer handling money once tokens are no longer sold and same for metrocards the clerk will handle more customer service functions and station inspection duties no too mention the possibility of moving from station to station for areas not manned 24 hours.
I'd like to see the station agents moving around. BTW, I've told my kids to go to the booth if we get separated on the subway. What will I tell them if the station is unmanned?
And (Josh) if you had unmanned stations and OPTO, what would happen if a passenger is sick? Wait for an ambulance? Get the station personnel out of the booth, and (OPTO or no) if the person is mobile they can get off the train and have the station personnel wait with them until help arrives. That would be an improvement in customer service.
Sick Customers: If they get to the booth (or someone tells us of a sick customer) we can use our communications to call for EMS. A station supervisor (and police) will also respond and the supervisor and police will remain with the customer until EMS arrives and transports the customer. Often times, the police will also accompany the customer to the hospital if needed.
[And (Josh) if you had unmanned stations and OPTO, what would happen if a passenger is sick? Wait for an ambulance? Get the station personnel out of the booth, and (OPTO or no) if the person is mobile they can get off the train and have the station personnel wait with them until help arrives. That would be an improvement in customer service.]
I think you can always find an offbeat scenario in which not having somebody handy causes an inconvenience--but one has to balance costs and benefits. In all my years riding the subways, I don't think I've ever seen the scenario you mention, although I'm sure it happens. The last time I was on a train where help had to be summoned, it was because of the a fight, and the train sat in the station for the few minutes it took the cops to arrive.
But I had to get off a NJT bus once because medics were working on a passenger with a heart attack, and they decided to take the whole bus to the hospital. And family lore has it that when my Great Aunt passed out after eating a shrimp, the 20th Century Limited had to sit in the station while the doctor worked on her--to their infinite chagrin, because they paid the passengers for every minute it was behind schedule.
[The good reason is that the Transit Authority has a sort of unwritten covenant with its employees, for lack of a better term, that they'll be given a higher degree of job security than found in most places. This goes beyond written contract terms and in some ways is even more binding, at least in a moral if not legal sense. Practice has borne this out, and IMO it's one of the things I respect the most about TA managment (well, just about the only thing, but that's another matter).]
We've discussed this before, but it seems to me that the key here is offering people transfers to useful work with their current wages and benefits; it's not like there's any shortage of things that need doing.
[Given the choice of unmanned stations and OPTO, I'll take OPTO. Lets have one person on the train and one person in the station, before we have two people on the train and one in the station.
There are about 560 train trips at peak hour, vs. 468 stations. Admitedly, there are fewer trips in the off peak hours. That's when manning the stations seem expensive relative to two on a train, because there are fewer trains.
But the real dropoff comes from 12 a.m. to 6 p.m. And that's when you really need someone there -- who wants to be alone underground for 20 minutes? That's when the bad stuff happens.
If we really want to save the big bucks, lets close the subway (except for a modest core system linked to night buses) as discussed earlier. This way, you're cutting jobs no one wants. And overnight construction would become safer, with the trains not running.]
I'd put a few floating guards in for safety, lots of cameras, and keep the subways open at night only when there was sufficient traffic to make them safe and economical.
[Hasn't stopped PATH from having a sky-high cost per rider. That's not the best example. The PATH operating cost per ride is over $3.00, vs. $1.17 on the NYC subway.]
PATH pays its personnel twice what the MTA does, spends more on keeping the stations in good shape (they've just installed passenger information monitors everywhere), has to meet FRA rules, and has lower ridership/mile. The trains are also only 7 cars long, so the staffing ratio is presumably higher.
Actually that was tried years ago by Horn & Hardart. Remember the Automats all over the city?
BTW, I've been using the "pay at the pump" pumps since their inception. Its so easy and you never have to carry cash. The only times I ever have to pay an attendant is for oil or fluids.
I believe that actually has been tried, on an experimental basis. Dunno if it works okay in practice.
While we're on the subject of machines replacing humans (so to speak), I do have to speak out in favor of one thing, namely the pay-at-the-pump gas stations. I try to use them exclusively and find them much better than having to deal, even briefly, with attendants, not to mention much faster.
Absolutely. There's nothing worse than having to wait on a stupid line twice. Wait on line to give the turkey your credit card, pump, then wait on line again to get your credit card back from the turkey. Whenever I'm at the typical convenience store/gas station, I pay at the pump. If I want anything inside, I go in and pay for it separately.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I Like pay at the pump, except a local West Coast Oil Company Tesero has a program here in Hawaii that if you pay by cash, you have your choice. You fill up a card with 125.00 worth of gas, then when it is filled you get a $5.00 rebate or 500 Frequent Flyer Miles. With gas going for $1.65 and up on Maui for 87 octane, you try to save money
I Like pay at the pump, except a local West Coast Oil Company Tesero has a program here in Hawaii that if you pay by cash, you have your choice. You fill up a card with 125.00 worth of gas, then when it is filled you get a $5.00 rebate or 500 Frequent Flyer Miles. With gas going for $1.65 and up on Maui for 87 octane, you try to save money
Everything is expensive in hawaii because everything has to be shipped or flown in from the mainland.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
the gasoline here comes from the same middle east countries as the gas on the mainland, on the same tankers, refined here by 2 companies. There is a Law Suite going on since last November about price gouging by Chevron, Unical, Tessero and Shell. It was found they are making a profit in Hawaii 3 times the amount on each gallon of gas as they do on the mainland. Another rip off here is Maui Pineapple (June 1999) A & P in Westchester County NY .39 pound. Ralphs Super Market Granada Hills Calif .39 lb. Safeway Super Market 2-8 Miles from Plantation. 1 Mile from Cannery .79 a pound. Go figure that out, By the way if you buy pineapple products in the super market, if it is the local store brand, or Hawaiin Gold, check the top. 100 pct Hawaiian. Comes from Maui. Dole or DelMonte from Thailand or Philippines. All Hawaiian Pineapple products in Cans comes from the same field and plantations here in Maui.
Most oil imported to the United States comes from Mexico and Venezuela.
Most oil imported to the United States comes from Mexico and Venezuela.
Saudi Arabia is a major supplier. I believe that more comes from there than it does from latin America, particularly the oil that is used on the east coast.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Do away with humans at the grocery store- we can scan our own stuff and put an alarm at the doors if we dont pay the machine.]
I believe that actually has been tried, on an experimental basis. Dunno if it works okay in practice.
I used a self checkout at a supermarket for the first time a couple months ago, at an A&P up in Cortlandt (on the Westchester/Putnam border). It was an express lane substitute, so you weren't supposed to checkout more than 15(? or so) items. There was one customer service person to oversee 4 self checkout stations. I found it very quick and easy, and any problems at the 4 stations were immediately handled by the one person watching. It's a pretty good deal for the supermarket-- 4 stations in the space of 2 regular lanes, and only 1 employee needed. I wouldn't use it if I had lots of items to scan and bag, but it was great for a few items.
[Thanks, Mark! Carrying his point one step further:
Do away with all human Bank tellers- there are ATMs!
Do away with window service at the Post Office- they have machines
Do away with humans at the grocery store- we can scan our own stuff and put an alarm at the doors if we dont pay the machine.
we can ...
Yes- I think you get my point. Some people wont deal with machines--look at ATMs- banks still have human tellers and yes- the lines are just as long.]
-Who cares if people don't want to use machines? Tough. Charge them the actual cost of using a person, and they'll adjust quickly enough.
-Human bank tellers provide services the machines don't. As it is, the banks have cut way down on tellers and now provide a service that's infinitely preferable to the old can't get your money during off hours one.
-The humans at the grocery store have been almost entirely done away with--that's what a supermarket is. In the old days, you handed a guy a list of what you wanted and he got it for you. Today in the suburbs, the clerks don't even pack the bags.
A better comparison would be that if government was in charge of the City's elevators, we'd just now be automating them and talking about reassigning the two operators on each car (this is the government, remember) as elevator agents.
So, here's my proposal. Let's have two identical subway systems, one with the comfort of 2PTO and ticket agents, the other OPTO with iron maidens. Then lets give passengers the option of choosing either, with one caveat--they have to pay the extra cost as part of their fare if they use the system with the human attendants.
Which one will people choose? Next question . . .
-The humans at the grocery store have been almost entirely done away with--that's what a supermarket is. In the old days, you handed a guy a list of what you wanted and he got it for you. Today in the suburbs, the clerks don't even pack the bags.
Publix Supermarket in Florida not only bags your groceries, they take your groceries to your car and load them in your trunk. They have special employees called baggers, whose sole function is to bag your groceries and take them to your car. In order to compete with Publix, Winn-Dixie started doing the same thing. Publix has an unconditional return policy. They will take anything back, no questions asked, even if you don't have the receipt. I don't even know how many times my wife had to go back to return something, either because the package was open, something was spoiled, or a Pillsbury canister popped open and the dough was oozing out. She has never gotten a hard time. Winn-Dixie has coupons for $5 off for a purchase over $25 (not very difficult to exceed these days). Publix will honor these Winn-
Dixie coupons just to get your business. I guess it would be culture shock if I ever moved back to NY where they make you bag your own groceries. Twenty years ago when I lived there, they bagged for you.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Most places in NY still bag groceries. At my local Pathmark in East Meadow they have special bag-your-own lines which supposedly go faster. At my local Waldbaums they have baggers that go from register to register wherever they're needed.
In New Jersey they just snarl. One supermarket has bag-your-own lanes but I don't shop there regularly, and I won't use it unless my youngest is with me to do the bagging (I'm too busy watching the clerk scan to make sure I don't get overcharged). Even where they do bag, they like to put the bread and eggs in first, then the jugs of juice or soda on top, so I rarely go to the store for more than a couple of items without him. North Carolina is much better - they even ask "paper or plastic", and some of the clerks even remember your preference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In New Jersey they just snarl. One supermarket has bag-your-own lanes but I don't shop there regularly, and I won't use it unless my youngest is with me to do the bagging (I'm too busy watching the clerk scan to make sure I don't get overcharged). Even where they do bag, they like to put the bread and eggs in first, then the jugs of juice or soda on top, so I rarely go to the store for more than a couple of items without him. North Carolina is much better - they even ask "paper or plastic", and some of the clerks even remember your preference.
They ask paper or plastic here too. The baggers with something on the ball put the perishables in separate bags from the non-perishables. They're also supposed to put household chemicals in separate bags. I insist on carrying a loaf of bread loose. Even though bagging is a minimum wage job, it still requires some level of brains to do it. There is an art to bagging groceries.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I hope this don't sound sexist but when I'm trying to decide which checkout line to go through I always go to the one with a female checker. I assume (I know, I could be wrong) that females are more experienced shoppers than males and so they know how to bag groceries better. I'm always afraid a male would throw it in the bag any which way. And thats the reason I don't go to the "bag your own" line.
I hope this don't sound sexist but when I'm trying to decide which checkout line to go through I always go to the one with a female checker. I assume (I know, I could be wrong) that females are more experienced shoppers than males and so they know how to bag groceries better. I'm always afraid a male would throw it in the bag any which way. And thats the reason I don't go to the "bag your own" line.
Their competency (or incompetency) depends more on how long they've been bagging and how well they were taught by their manager.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I always ask for paper in plastic. I watch the scanner and my wife watches the bagger. She wants meat seperate from veggies, dairy saeperate from dry etc. She watches too many health things on tv. If I get plastic only, I have them double bag it, so many times the cheap plastic opens up with milk or frozen food on the bottom.
[They ask paper or plastic here too. The baggers with something on the ball put the perishables in separate bags from the non-perishables. They're also supposed to put household chemicals in separate bags. I insist on carrying a loaf of bread loose. Even though bagging is a minimum wage job, it still requires some level of brains to do it. There is an art to bagging groceries.]
Supposed to. I'm told they're taught at checkout school (checkout school?) not to combine milk and bleach because they can react.
Typical annoyances:
--They put all the heavy stuff in one bag and all the light stuff in the other
--They don't put the meat in a separate bag so it gets bacteria on eveything
--They walk away to change money trays without closing their lanes first, and usually without even apologizing
--The world comes to an end as soon as they see a fruit, a vegetable, or something without a readable UPC
On the other hand, not a job I'd want.
(end rant)
Typical annoyances:
--They put all the heavy stuff in one bag and all the light stuff in the other
--They don't put the meat in a separate bag so it gets bacteria on eveything
--They walk away to change money trays without closing their lanes first, and usually without even apologizing
--The world comes to an end as soon as they see a fruit, a vegetable, or something without a readable UPC
On the other hand, not a job I'd want.
You need to police the bagger and watch what they're doing. Tell them how you want the bags packed. I always make sure the bread is loose. The bags go in the trunk or on the back seat, but the bread goes on the front passenger seat, away from everything else. I get royally pissed if my bread gets crushed. I'll take it back to the store and get it exchanged. BTW, on the subject of bread: You can store it for at least a few months if you freeze it. Then, you just take out as many slices as you're going to use at a time and let them thaw. Bread thaws very quickly. If you're going to toast it, just put it in the toaster frozen. It will toast just fine. Since I've been freezing bread, I've never had it go stale or moldy on me.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[You need to police the bagger and watch what they're doing. Tell them how you want the bags packed. I always make sure the bread is loose. The bags go in the trunk or on the back seat, but the bread goes on the front passenger seat, away from everything else. I get royally pissed if my bread gets crushed. I'll take it back to the store and get it exchanged. BTW, on the subject of bread: You can store it for at least a few months if you freeze it. Then, you just take out as many slices as you're going to use at a time and let them thaw. Bread thaws very quickly. If you're going to toast it, just put it in the toaster frozen. It will toast just fine. Since I've been freezing bread, I've never had it go stale or moldy on me.]
I used to freeze bread--works great. I have to make it in a bread machine now though because they add barley to it and I'm allergic to it.
they like to put the bread and eggs in first, then the jugs of juice or soda on top ...
Yeah, and the Freihoffer's cupcakes upside down or sideways or enough of an angle to knock all the frosting off ....
--Mark
[I guess it would be culture shock if I ever moved back to NY where they make you bag your own groceries. Twenty years ago when I lived there, they bagged for you.]
They still do in the City, and offer delivery to boot. Only suburban markets make you bag your own groceries.
They still do in the City, and offer delivery to boot
Are there any other supermsarkets that deliver besides D'Agistino's?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Lucky s and Ralphs in LA had a phone order service back in the Early 90s I don t know if they still do.
[Are there any other supermsarkets that deliver besides D'Agistino's?]
I think most of them do. The Food Emporium near me (an A&P until a few weeks ago, when they changed the signs and painted some) certainly does.
[Imagine iron maidens at Grand Central. With those crowds, it would take an hour just to get INTO the subway!]
Clearly, they could only be installed as the exclusive means of ingress in stations where there's enough room--though they could be staggered where there was sufficient depth.
Also, there would have to be enough room for ticket machines--the ones they're installing are large and slow to operate if you use cash.
But a few ticket agents at overcrowded stations during rush hours, where they could pull a gate off the conventional turnstyles open gates for exiting passengers, wouldn't break the bank.
The trick I think is to use people where you really need them, rather than assigning them somewhere just because there was once a ticket agent there.
Hey, if we hadn't made this sort of adjustment before, we'd still have a guy to collect tickets on the IRT.
"As a Station Agent I object to your opinion. If we go away, who will watch the stations- a person at Jay Street? fare jumpers will no tyhat no one is there and fare jumping will incerase. I ride PATH wiith just cameras at stations and I have reported via phone to them of incidents of illegal vendors, smoking inside the paid area, homeless sleeping just inside the turnstiles and have gotten no PA Police."
Just an observation, why doesn't the system use fare gates like they do on the London Underground? I'm sure it's still possible to jump those, but it no longer is a casual jump or climb under like the fare gates of NYC. I also feel that the subway stations of NYC could use some extra CCTV while we're on the topic. I saw very little graffitti in the London system and saw maybe 1-2 homeless people the entire time, but I definitely saw tons of CCTV cameras all over the place.
CCTV in NYC is not practical:
1- vandals spray paint the cameras- I've seen one being painted while I was watching the monitor-- I never saw the vandal just the image going white.
2- Infrastructure-- you'd have to wire the stations for cameras and run the cables to feed the image to a monitor at Jay Street or wherever and then buy the monitors. Assuming an average of 4 per station (one each end of two plats) and closing all passageways you would need 1872 cameras and that does not address elevators, escalators, passageways, intermediate levels, etc.) You'd need talk back boxes or phones at each station and people at Jay Street to watch all those cameras.
that is just the start of why CCTV wont work and high wheels wont work either-- you'd have lines up to the street to enter stations like Penn Station, Times Square and other major stations. A cop at every station wont work either-- we make less than cops and we also sell tokens and cards
I think that once the token clerk job is eliminated, and station personnel start moving around the stations, vandalism and crime will go down.
Except that when they are in the booth, they have to do work -- just as the T/Os have to drive the train. No opportunity to goldbrick, or to do a great job. Get them out of the platform and performance will diverge. Some will do a great job and become fixtures of the community. Some will just stay home if they suspect no managers will be showing up.
One comment with regards to your great post! There will **always** be a booth. The booth also contains items besides money such as communications systems, maps (when available), first aid kits (not too well stocked), and at all times there will be a person in the booth handling sales.(Source: official training material inr egards to future duties of station agents in MYM training course).
now **opinion**
I can not see a roaming station agent at nights at some stations that at this time do not get a lunch relief (gain-sharing) due to safety concerns and have a police officer present when station agents change shifts or empty their turnstiles ("pull their wheels"). In fact- some stations ( I wont list them and will not e-mail such a list) wont allow a reief UNLESS a police officer is present.
[There will **always** be a booth. The booth also contains items besides money such as communications systems, maps (when available), first aid kits (not too well stocked), and at all times there will
be a person in the booth handling sales.
now **opinion**
I can not see a roaming station agent at nights at some stations that at this time do not get a lunch relief (gain-sharing) due to safety concerns and have a police officer present when station agents change shifts or empty their turnstiles ("pull their wheels"). In fact- some stations ( I wont list them and will not e-mail such a list) wont allow a reief UNLESS a police officer is present.]
I'm a bit confused ... does this mean that station agents will, in fact, continue to sell MetroCards? I had thought that MVMs eventually would be the sole fare-sales methods and that station agents would no longer handle money.
Now on to the "dangerous stations." It is flat out, absolute wrong and even immoral for TA management to keep the list confidential, which appears to be the case. The list should be public knowledge, indeed should be publicized by all reasonable means. Riders have a right to know if they're using stations that are considered dangerous enough to warrant special security precautions. Forgive me for saying this, but it sounds like TA management is greatly concerned about the safety of its employees, but couldn't give a flying [deleted] about the safety of the riding public.
Based on training materials- YES! apparently the amount of money in the booths will be reduced.
As far as employee safety- they do care or they would let someone give lunch at those booths. They even make annoucements via an intercom heard in the booths that we can call for police presence if we need a comfort (restroom break), or pull our wheels. The police are also well trained- when patrolling near a station they are to come to the booth and ask the station agent " Do you want to pull". If we say yes they'll watch us pull. When revenue comes to those stations, one or two police officers come with them also.
"CCTV in NYC is not practical:
1- vandals spray paint the cameras- I've seen one being painted while I was watching the monitor-- I never saw the vandal just the image going white.
2- Infrastructure-- you'd have to wire the stations for cameras and run the cables to feed the image to a monitor at Jay Street or wherever and then buy the monitors. Assuming an average of 4 per station (one each end of two plats) and closing all passageways you would need 1872 cameras and that does not address elevators, escalators, passageways, intermediate levels, etc.) You'd need talk back boxes or phones at each station and people at Jay Street to watch all those cameras.
With regard to #1, with the way that I saw them done in London, it'd be close to impossible to spray-paint a camera without being seen by that camera first or being seen by another camera whilst in the act. Of course, there's no telling which cameras were being watched at what times, and for all that I know they could have not been connected, but there definitely were plenty of real cameras there. With #2, I don't see why they couldn't put that many cameras in and wire them. London Underground definitely has at least 8 video cameras per station at the ones I visited. As to how they monitor them, or where the signals go to, I'm unsure, but their subway system is older than NYC's, and they've done it.
[CCTV in NYC is not practical:
1- vandals spray paint the cameras- I've seen one being painted while I was watching the monitor-- I never saw the vandal just the image going white.]
Seems to me this is a job for police work. It's not exactly something they can't do in secret.
[2- Infrastructure-- you'd have to wire the stations for cameras and run the cables to feed the image to a monitor at Jay Street or wherever and then buy the monitors. Assuming an average of 4 per station (one each end of two plats) and closing all passageways you would need 1872 cameras and that does not address elevators, escalators, passageways, intermediate levels, etc.) You'd need talk back boxes or phones at each station and people at Jay Street to watch all those cameras.]
You don't need to watch all the cameras all the time. Just at random, with high crime areas automatically favored. If a camera goes out, send the cops, right away. And put a VCR on each camera--that's a significant deterent to crime, and a wonderful aid to catching criminals, becaus even if the crime itself isn't caught on camera the perpetrator will have been captured by one of them.
Cameras are dirt cheap--try $100 for a little CCD jobby that lasts forever. Installation is more expensive, of course, much more than the camera itself, but it's not necessary to use a wire from each camera--all the stations in a line could be covered by a few coaxial cables (one fiber would do the whole system, actually, but that would be a bit more expensive).
Cool, Josh, I LIKE IT -- BUST VANDALS :->
[re costs of security cameras]
Another thing to note is that the cameras need not be monitored at TA headquarters or indeed at any location in (high-priced) New York. Monitoring staff could be almost any place in the country - this is a common practice with burglar alarm systems. There are plenty of low-cost places in Appalachia and the rural Midwest, to name just a couple areas, that would be eager for the jobs.
If you think the gates in London are any better than the turnstiles in NY, then your mistaken - fare evaders simply find other ways to subvert the system. On the LU gates, the gates are controlled by electric eyes either side of the swinging gates, and it is common for fare dodgers to follow closely behind a legit rider (close enought so that the eye doesn't trigger and close the gate). Jumping is also quite common.
On the whole, In my experience, there seems to be less fare evasion on NYC transit than on LU (most stations on LU have NO gates, only stations within Zone 1 and a few busy outer stations)
Can we at least give Rudy a little credit for that? And if you guys send him to Washington in a Republican administration, he might be able to do even more for New York. But much of the credit should go to New Yorkers as well. I was talking to Brighton Beach Bob today, and he was telling me how he still felt like a New Yorker even though he lives in Hawaii. I'm Californian to my bones but still very proud to be a native New Yorker, and I saw a great deal of can do spirit from the cabbies to the cops this summer. No matter what anyone may say, New York still is the greatest city in the world.
New York still is the greatest city in the world
I agree.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Fred, when was the last time a Republican Administration did any thing for Public Transit, Reeagan/Bush Killed it, and the Last Republican President who cared about NY was 100 yeas ago in Teddy Roosevelt.
[You have to admit something big has changed in NYC, however. I was looking at 1990-98 population trends the other day -- almost the older cities continue to shrink rapidly, but not NYC. In fact, if they do a decent count job the population should come in over 8 million. Subway ridership is up 65 percent since 1994, to a level I though to be impossible.
If the public assistance population falls below 500,000 -- before the rest of the country drops the entire cost of servicing it in our laps -- the city may have the money to do some things. If Upstate NY were ever to turn around and get off the dole also -- there are a few good signs -- we may have more money in the state than we have in a long time.
No guarantees, but things that seemed impossible a few years ago seem possible now. If our state and local governments were not so incompetant and corrupt, we'd be doing great right now. The people of the state are certainly doing their part.]
As you say, anything's possible, but I'm still not going to hold my breath waiting for a Second Avenue line. New York's essential problem is not crime or welfare dependency or unemployment. Which is a pity, because those issues, as serious as they may be, can be solved or at least alleviated. New York's core weakness - which I believe will be its eventual downfall - is a lack of vision. Too many people want to stop "progress" or even bring back the past. There is something ludicrous if not pathetic when hundreds of people mobilize to stop a high-rise construction project because it might cast shadows in Central Park or block their views, just to cite one example. Meanwhile, it should go without saying, people in other parts of the country are moving into the high-tech future, not fearing it, but embracing it. New York's just going to be left further and further behind.
Who would have thought that one of New York's old-line corporate giants, a company dating back to the 1920s, would get swallowed up by a high-tech Sunbelt company that didn't even exist 15 years ago?
Meanwhile, it should go without saying, people in other parts of the country are moving into the high-tech future, not fearing it, but embracing it. New York's just going to be left further and further behind.
Who would have thought that one of New York's old-line corporate giants, a company dating back to the 1920s, would get swallowed up by a high-tech Sunbelt company that didn't even exist 15 years ago?
I don't know what you're talking about. All the high-tech jobs are in NYC. All the computer and Internet jobs are right in Manhattan. silicone Alley is something that was also not there 15 years ago. Which 1920's NY company was swallowed up by which 15 year old Sunbelt company? If this is so, I think the greater threat comes from companies abroad swallowing up American companies.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re New York's reluctance to face the future]
[I don't know what you're talking about. All the high-tech jobs are in NYC. All the computer and Internet jobs are right in Manhattan. silicone Alley is something that was also not there 15 years ago. Which 1920's NY company was swallowed up by which 15 year old Sunbelt company?]
The merger I was referring to is AOL's acquisition of Time Warner. On second thought, it might not be the best example, as the merged company's headquarters will be in New York (AOL's operations will remain in Virginia).
The merger I was referring to is AOL's acquisition of Time Warner. On second thought, it might not be the best example, as the merged company's headquarters will be in New York (AOL's operations will remain in Virginia).
Although Virginia is a "Southern" state, I'd hardly call it the Sunbelt. As for AOL, I said this in another thread, but I will repeat it. AOL has taken over Compuserve and now Time-Warner. Four years ago when I first got on the Internet, AOL had 5 million subscribers. Now they have 20 million. Steve Case is in a race with Bill Gates in a quest for money and power. One of the two will wind up the richest man on earth. With Bill Gates its software and operatinig system. With Steve Case its internet access. Both desire to have pure monopolies in their respective products and services. After all, if you can't get along without Microsoft products, Bill Gates has you by the short hairs. If you need AOL to get on the Internet, Steve Case has you by the short hairs. I'm in Bill's camp. I access the Internet with the Microsoft Network (MSN).
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There was a man on the moojn, and Cinderella did exist in Germany in the 17th Century(based on true story by the brothers Grimm)
There was a man on the moojn, and Cinderella did exist in Germany in the 17th Century(based on true story by the brothers Grimm)
Not the one with the glass slipper and the pumpkin coach.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeh but it was based on her
01/10/2000
#11 - 42nd St. Light Rail Line.
Bill Newkirk
Hey those same words can apply to when and IF EVER the Sea Beach goes back across the Manhattan Bridge. That for me, as I've said over and over until my subway brothers out there are sick of hearing it, was the gateway to Brooklyn for me as a kid----to both grandparents, to Coney Island or to Ebbets Field. Always the trip was tinged with excitement. When I rode my favorite train in '91 and this summer I was almost too groggy after spending what seemed like endless time under the bowels of lower Manhattan to enjoy the scene of the Sea Beach leaving the tunnel and heading for 8th Avenue and eventually Coney Island. So you're in good company.
Whenever you see a Sea Beach train forced through that tunnel, that feeling is the same feeling I get seeing my beloved J train curve off Jamaica Ave. at 124th St towards Archer Ave, instead of going on to 168th St, like it SHOULD.
When I went to Jamaica to renew my driver's license, I stood at the corner of 165th St. and Jamaica Ave, the very same spot I'd stand on and watch trains go in and out of the 168th St. station while my mom shopped. Now, most people dont ever recall Jamaica Ave. with an el above it. That sucks.
Whenever you see a Sea Beach train forced through that tunnel, that feeling is the same feeling I get seeing my beloved J train curve off Jamaica Ave. at 124th St towards Archer Ave, instead of going on to 168th St, like it SHOULD.
When I went to Jamaica to renew my driver's license, I stood at the corner of 165th St. and Jamaica Ave, the very same spot I'd stand on and watch trains go in and out of the 168th St. station while my mom shopped. Now, most people dont ever recall Jamaica Ave. with an el above it. That sucks.
I'm sure that its like that wherever an el used to be. Of course, even among the adults that should remember the el, some people don't know whether they're coming or going. "El? What el? I thought that dark stuff that I always saw over the street was just dirt on my glasses".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No. It was orange and it was designated as the 6th Ave. local.
Second Avenue subway (in and of itself) will probably warrant another (Light Blue) trunk line color, if and when it is ever completed. "V" has been on signs for some time, still is, and is Orange, indicating Sixth Avenue service.
Wayne
01/10/2000
Back to the Manny B, with all the talk of replacement tunnels around, is it really possible? The way the lines travel on both sides of the East River are set up are for trains approaching from a very elevated standpoint. A tunnel would be the opposite, from a very low standpoint. Would it create a problem on the final approach to Canal St and Dekalb Ave because the elevation and depression of the lines have now been changed?
Bear with me, it sounds confusing, but picture it in your mind.
Bill Newkirk
Remember, the Grand and Canal St stations are far inland, farther than most stations that are fed from under-river tunnels. There's plenty of space for a gradual grade change.
Plus the Canal Street station on the N/Q is already beneath the R/6/J/M/Z, then begins its rise after it leaves the station. A tunnel could contiune across Canal and hook up with the B/D at Chrystie St., then turn south at Allen Street and head towards the East River.
The first portion of it will be yellow, as an extension of Broadway service.
Yes it will. The part which runs in the central business district will wear the new color, with the upper portion wearing both.
Wayne
If the proposed "stubway" north of 63rd. is ever built, that would be a miracle. But talking about a 2nd. Ave. line south of this point and what color it migh sport, is fruitless. It will never be built.
It could be the R32 side signs. They say 'V via Sixth Ave', with the V in the orange circle.
-Hank
You always ask this, it's been answered many times. Not only is V the right color, but H, K and T have already been used in the past. Since there is no shortage of letters, why bother? Don't you find it annoying to have to refer to two different Ks in the past history of the subway?
You always ask this, it's been answered many times. Not only is V the right color, but H, K and T have already been used in the past. Since there is no shortage of letters, why bother? Don't you find it annoying to have to refer to two different Ks in the past history of the subway?
Lets play musical trains. First the K was the 6th
Ave. B'way-jamaica Line, then it was the 8th Ave. Wash. Hts. local, now its going to be the 6th Ave.-63rd St. Queens Line. What will it be next year? Lets turn everything around:
A- Fourth Ave. Local
B- Queens IND 6th Ave. Exp.
C- Broadway-Sea Beach
D- Queens IND 8th Ave. Exp.
E- Myrtle Ave. Line
F- 14th St. Canarsie
G- Jamaica Ave. Line
h- Brighton
I- West End
J- Culver
K- 8th Ave. Wash. Hts. Exp.
L- 8th Ave. Wash. Hts. Local
M- 2nd Ave. Line
This stuff is so way into the future, especially the 2nd Ave. Line, I think I'll stop. Its 4:25 AM. See y'all tomorrow!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'd like them to bring back the K, as in Kevin.
I'd like them to bring back the K, as in Kevin.
I have been saying for a while that they should reinstitute K 6th Ave./B'way-Jamaica service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes but 1-7 was also used, and by the way the H or HH was also used as a shuttle in Bklyn way back in the 30s. What trains have curtins and what have electronic digital lights. As I stated before the TA can screw up things again as the did in 67 so who knows.
As I stated before the TA can screw up things again as the did in 67 so who knows.
I have a feeling that the transit system is going to be in for another major change, just like with Chrystie St. when 63rd St. connector between Queensbridge and 36th St. opens. Nobody will know what line they are on, just like 1967.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As I posted a few weeks ago the A Division will change to Letters and the B back to Numbers, or maybe they will eliminate the letters and numbers all together just to screw up everybody.
As I posted a few weeks ago the A Division will change to Letters and the B back to Numbers, or maybe they will eliminate the letters and numbers all together just to screw up everybody.
I know one system that they couldn't use - the color system. There's not enough colors for all the routes. If they run out of letters, why not switch to the Chinese alpabet. They have so many characters, it would be impossible to run out. :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The purple line? The fuscia line? The periwinkle line? LOL
The purple line? The fuscia line? The periwinkle line? LOL
The Cayan line.
The Teal line.
The Khaki line.
The Indigo line.
The Turquoise line.
Talk about confusion!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I suppose the could go to solids and stripes for color designations, like pool balls. Or, better yet, in light of the ongoing literacy problem, dump the letters and numbers and go to pictograms (cat, dog, bell, star, etc.) for each line. Then they'd never run out of symbols.
I suppose the could go to solids and stripes for color designations, like pool balls. Or, better yet, in light of the ongoing literacy problem, dump the letters and numbers and go to pictograms (cat, dog, bell, star, etc.) for each line. Then they'd never run out of symbols.
This thread is getting sillier by the day. Take the cat into Brooklyn and transfer for the dog. Take the dog 4 stops and transfer to the star. If they did the billiard ball thing, which division (A or B) would get stripes and which would get solids?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How about this: no letters or numbers. no colors no pictographs. Take all the signs out and let the straphanger find his own way around by his own innate sense of dead reckoning. I predict that you'd see a lot of Upper West Side white folks standing at New Lots Ave. saying "is this 14th St?".
Here's a scary thought: which train would be the dreaded 8 ball?
Here's a scary thought: which train would be the dreaded 8 ball?
The Franklin shuttle. Because of its reputation due to the Malbone St. wreck, the line has always been "behind the 8-ball"!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You mean that the IRT will be letters and the BMT numbers? You can't be serious, the current system has been in place way too long to change. If the TA is considering changing Div A to letters and B to numbers, that's gonna screw alot of people up.
If they are running out of letters and numbers, perhaps you are right, they should used the Chinese alphabet.
If this is gonna happen, when?
You mean that the IRT will be letters and the BMT numbers? You can't be serious, the current system has been in place way too long to change. If the TA is considering changing Div A to letters and B to numbers, that's gonna screw alot of people up.
If they are running out of letters and numbers, perhaps you are right, they should used the Chinese alphabet.
If this is gonna happen, when?
It was all tongue in cheek. Its not going to happen, any sooner that the tooth fairy is coming.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Only R44, R46 and R131 (R110B) have digital destination SIDE signs. R32 and R38 have undecipherable digital bulkhead destination signs. Everything else is curtain rolls/mylar signs, including the newest equipment, R68 and R68A.
I am not sure of the R130 (R110A), having never actually seen it.
Wayne
Things change look what they did to the 32s and 38s
The R110A cars also have side digital signs, as well as colored front digital route signs.
The R-130 and R-142 both have digital side signs and bulkhead signs.
A better "K" should originate in Canarsie, using the Flyover from A.A. to Eastern Parkway, and should go up Sixth Avenue, as it did. This would allow "J"s and "Z"s to run express a bit further.
Wayne
Unfortunatly, with J, M and Z trains all using the 2 Willy B tracks, this wouldn't leave much capacity for a K train, unless the J and M lines have their service cut.
the Z will be eliminated and replaced by the K. This is Jamaica Center K Local via Jamaica Ave. Broadway Brooklyn, 6th Ave Man, 53rd St Tunnel, Queens Blvd to Jamaica Center, Doors closing,
I'd prefer K because it's smoother. Using widely seperated letters like the V from other 6th Ave lines (B/D/F) just doesn't sound right. I still hate the Z train. Couldn't they use the K, or H line for that?
SOmetime in the mid 1990s(1996?) the bridge was completely closed during the mid-day and weekends. NYCT tried to have no service to Grand Street on weekends but was forced to do so by complaints from the area merchants.
This service diversion was in effect from April 30th 1995 to Nov 7 1995. In fact, one of it's provisions, the reduction of M service south of Chambers St. during the midday hours is STILL in effect.
More people use the 6th ave line because the TA hasn't given them a
real choice since the early 70's. Factor in the the South side bridge
closing and you get more people riding sixth ave trains.
I work down in the Union Square area. It's one of the hottest
areas in Manhattan lots of new building with NO tax breaks from the
city, trendy restaurants, new movie theaters, new business. You can't
get there on the B,D,or Q they don't stop at either 14th st or 23rd.
What you really need is more service on Broadway, if only the city
would fix that damned bridge.
They are fixing that "damned" bridge. Trouble is, it keeps breaking a little more each and every time a train crosses it because of the now well-known design flaw.
If they started building a replacement tunnel in 1982, when the rehab began, it would most likely be ready to use today.
Ugh.
More people use the 6th ave line because the TA hasn't given them a
real choice since the early 70's. Factor in the the South side bridge
closing and you get more people riding sixth ave trains.
I work down in the Union Square area. It's one of the hottest
areas in Manhattan lots of new building with NO tax breaks from the
city, trendy restaurants, new movie theaters, new business. You can't
get there on the B,D,or Q they don't stop at either 14th st or 23rd.
What you really need is more service on Broadway, if only the city
would fix that damned bridge.
Prior to Chrystie St. opening in 1967, the Broadway Line was more important than the Sixth Ave. Line. They took all the service off Broadway and routed it up Sixth Ave. In your example of the B, D and Q, do you realize that riders on these lines have to get off at 34th St. and go to the Broadway Line to go to Union Sq. either that, or switch for the F and than the L. If you're coming in from Brooklyn, you're better off switching to an N or R train before you get into Manhattan if you're going to Union Sq.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/08/2000
Sounds like we're resurrecting an old topic. Pardon my pessimism but, maybe they can't fix that damned bridge. Perhaps it's gone beyond it's useful life, shortened by design flaws, and nobody wants to talk about it!
Bill Newkirk
Sounds like we're resurrecting an old topic. Pardon my pessimism but, maybe they can't fix that damned bridge. Perhaps it's gone beyond it's useful life, shortened by design flaws, and nobody wants to talk about it!
Well, like Chris keeps saying, they should build a replacement tunnel. Fact is, they should have started building it when they closed the bridge the first time in the 1980's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They only took 2 lines of the 5 off of Broadway and put it on 6th Ave. in 1967 The West End and Part of the Brighton Line, You still had the 4th Ave, Sea Beach and Brighton running on Bdwy. Over the years they reduced the service on Bdwy. Most likely when all is finished the Q will be back on Bdwy
They only took 2 lines of the 5 off of Broadway and put it on 6th Ave. in 1967 The West End and Part of the Brighton Line, You still had the 4th Ave, Sea Beach and Brighton running on Bdwy. Over the years they reduced the service on Bdwy. Most likely when all is finished the Q will be back on Bdwy
The Post-Chrystie St. QB was a rush hour single direction service. I don't even count it as a Broadway service for the Brighton Line. When Chrystie St. opened, they eliminated theT, Q, QT and stripped the QB to rush hour single direction only. The only one of 4 Coney Isloand lines on Broadway these days is the Sea Beach. Brighton, Culver and West End all go up 6th Ave.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The biggest mistake that post-1967 service on the Southern division BMT lines was the reduction of Broadway service on the Brighton line. For some inexplicable reason, they thought that the Nassau St. line would do allright as the only local along the Brighton line. What should have been done was to have the QB run all day long, like the M did, to Stillwell Ave. This would have balanced out Bway/6th Ave. service during the weekdays considerably. The QJ train should have never been created.
The QJ train should have remained as a rush hour (and midday) service on the Brighton, basically the QB and QJ functions on the Brighton would have been switched. This is to allow Brighton access downtown. The M should return to the Brighton Line when both sides of that bridge open.
The T and the B were merged, The T was not eliminated. Bdway should have as follow Exp Q Local N & R 6th Ave Exp B & D Local F and?. Broadway and 6th Ave are never more then 2 blocks apart any way so not much of a inconvience.
The T and the B were merged, The T was not eliminated. Bdway should have as follow Exp Q Local N & R 6th Ave Exp B & D Local F and?. Broadway and 6th Ave are never more then 2 blocks apart any way so not much of a inconvience.
Someone brought up a good point that Union Square is not accessible with the B, D or Q. Even 14+6 is not that close to Union Sq. Anyone on the B, D or Q would have to change at 34th St. for a Broadway train. What you said about 6th Ave. not being far from Broadway works both ways. The 6th Ave. people could walk from the Broadway Line. No, I still feel that 6th Ave. and Broadway service should be balanced, which it is not.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Actually, people headed towards Union Sq. from southern Brooklyn always transfer to the 4/5 at Atlantic. Since the Lexington IRT is way, way over capicity, the resumption of Broadway service on the bridge would ease congestion on these lines.
The thing is there are alot of people in the Grand street area who use B,D,Q, alot of chinese people who take B,D,Q to Brooklyn.
Also there alot of business who will hurt (Chinese groceries, food stands) when Grand street would close or not have any B,D,Q service across the bridge.
Why can't the TA build a simple crossover to the south side tracks before the bridge? How complicated could it be, all they have to do is connect the A/B to the H tracks just before the bridge (under Canal street.
The Manny B problem should at least have a partial solution in giving 6th avenue and Broadway trains access to both sides of the bridge.
Grand street and Canal street aren't that close. There's been a large boom in business in the northeast section of Chinatown, partially due to the easy subway access there with Grand street. I'd hate to see that area become desolate again.
The thing is there are alot of people in the Grand street area who use B,D,Q, alot of chinese people who take B,D,Q to Brooklyn.
Also there alot of business who will hurt (Chinese groceries, food stands) when Grand street would close or not have any B,D,Q service across the bridge.
Why can't the TA build a simple crossover to the south side tracks before the bridge? How complicated could it be, all they have to do is connect the A/B to the H tracks just before the bridge (under Canal street.
The Manny B problem should at least have a partial solution in giving 6th avenue and Broadway trains access to both sides of the bridge.
Grand street and Canal street aren't that close. There's been a large boom in business in the northeast section of Chinatown, partially due to the easy subway access there with Grand street. I'd hate to see that area become desolate again
There needs to be some kind of balance. The Culver F already runs on 6th Ave. Have one more line run up 6th Ave. - the D, because it has a train that could be an alternative, the Q, if they run it up Broadway. That way, the D and F could go up 6th Ave., with the D providing service at Grand St. and also going to Brooklyn. Return the West End (T) to Broadway and terminate the B at 34th St., like the old BB used to. This would balance service better between Broadway and 6th Ave.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Unfortunately, the way the MTA service patterns are now set up (and the ghost of John Hylan would be proud), Sixth Ave. requires four lines, at least during rush hour, to handle 1. Concourse express, 2. Concourse local, 3. 63rd St. Queensbridge (that 57th and 6th stop mandates the line not run via Broadway) and 4. 53rd St. Queens Blvd. express.
While they can get the Q back onto Broadway when the south side of the bridge reopens, they'll still need the fourth line (the long-talked about V train) to run via 63rd St. Until the Second Ave. uptown connector is built (supress your laughter) the Q has noplace to go on Broadway except for 57th St. and 7th Ave.
Put the two together, and it's impossble to get rid of the B train and bring back the old T West End express, because then you'd have two Broadway lines with no place to go but 57th and 7th. Outside of shutting down the Montague St. tunnel to completely cut off the Broadway line from the Southern Division, John Hylan couldn't have planeed it better if he had done it himself.
So what are you saying? Leave the Broadway Line a ghost town and route everything up 6th Ave? I suggested what I suggested to create a balance between 6th Ave. service and Broadway service. They can run the Q up Broadway and replace the 6th Ave. Q with the V. All this service running up 6th Ave. is not that necessary. There's nothing wrong with routing a T-West End up Broadway and running a B between the Concourse Line and 34th St. and 6th Ave. They don't have to terminate the T at 57+7 either. It can go to Astoria like it used to, especially if the LaGuardia extension of the Astoria line is ever built (like you said about 2nd Ave., supress your laughter).
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
All I'm saying is the way the planners have set up the system as it is today, the BMT Broadway line has only three northern terminals at the max after coming over from Brooklyn -- Astoria (N), 71st Continental Ave. (R) and 57th and 7th (Q). The Sixth Ave. line has four (4 1/2 actually) -- 205th Concourse (D), Bedford Park Blvd./145th St. (B), 179th St. Hillside Ave. (F) and Queensbridge, which is currently the Q but will probably become the V when the line is extended to 71st Continnetal.
If there were no station at Sixth Ave. and 57th St., there would be no problem running the Q via Broadway and 63rd St. to Continental Ave. But because of that station, the MTA has to have four lines running along Sixth Ave. The problem is, with half the Manny B closed, it's tough to get all those lines across to Brooklyn, which is why there is no BMT train ending at 57th and Seventh right now -- it's redundant in the MTA's eyes.
Ideally, by 2003, both sides of the Manny B will be open, the Q will be back on Broadway, and the new V train will be running on Sixth Ave. via 63rd St., and from there hopefully to Church Ave. in Brooklyn, allowing the MTA to reactivate the express tracks for either the V or F between Jay Street and Church Ave.
Ideally, by 2003, both sides of the Manny B will be open, the Q will be back on Broadway, and the new V train will be running on Sixth Ave. via 63rd St., and from there hopefully to Church Ave. in Brooklyn, allowing the MTA to reactivate the express tracks for either the V or F between Jay Street and Church Ave.
Well, having the Q back on Broadway will help to balance things somewhat. The only other thing that I proposed was having a Broadway T instead of a 6th Ave. B on the West End. How about a compromise? Have shared B and T service on the West End, and route the M on the Sea Beach.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Run the M Back on the Brighton D/Q Express M Local
Run the M Back on the Brighton D/Q Express M Local
It sounds good, but it won't work. They will never run 2 expresses on the Brighton Line. They would probably turn the Q into what the old QB was - local, one direction, rush hours only. The best thing they can do is keep the D local, make Q-Broadway the express and run the M on the Sea Beach with split B and T service on the West End. Local service on the Brighton should go to Midtown. Nassau St. is not very important.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Sea Beach Never had 2 lines on it. They may run the Q Mon-Fri 6A-8P Local In Bklyn D 24/7 Express when the is running like before
What about the short lived "NX"?
As you said SHORT LIVED
It still counts.
01/10/2000
If they run the (T) on the West End, would it utilize the center track on the "el" in rush hours?
Run the (M) down the Sea Beach? I think you got Sea Beach Fred excited!
Bill Newkirk
If they run the (T) on the West End, would it utilize the center track on the "el" in rush hours?
Run the (M) down the Sea Beach? I think you got Sea Beach Fred excited!
Express service on all 4 lines to Coney Island would be nice.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah but what about the people on the local stations how would they get there, and didn t they pull out one of the Exp Tracks on the Sea Beach?
The Sea Beach express tracks are useless for anything more than the periodic special.
The Sea Beach express tracks are useless for anything more than the periodic special.
I think one exp. track is totally unsignalled, and the other is only partially signalled. This partially-signalled section of track is the new car testing track.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/11/2000
The "totally unsignalled" Sea Beach Express track you're talking about is also severed at both ends!
Bill Newkirk
The "totally unsignalled" Sea Beach Express track you're talking about is also severed at both ends!
Bill Newkirk
That was dumb. What purpose does a track that's not connected to anything serve? I was going to ask you if it still was electrified, but that question is pointless if nothing can access the track. I'll bet it is rusting like anything.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's it! They don't want to use it anymore and since it costs money to rip it up, and if it is, the space cannot be used for anything, they just let it rot. The other track is fully signalled in both directions the entire length and is used for the occasional GO, not testing. The extra track on the Dyre line is the test track. Perhaps the Sea Beach track will be used for the R-143.
2 express tracks are really redundant since no normal service uses them. The CI-bound track will probably get torn up in the near future.
How much do you think the following will cost:
1) Remove CI-bound Track
2) Shift Manhattan-bound track to the center
3) Build some island platforms between the shifted express and the local at some stations?
For one thing, they'd have to demolish all the bridges and stationhouses.
Impossible, as a track down the center of the Sea Beach trench would cut through the steel supports for every overpass.
The CI-bound track will probably get torn up in the near future.
I heard something to that effect a few years ago. Its a shame. I'd love to see express service on the Sea Beach. I'm sure Fred would love to see it also. One thing that I regret is never riding the short-lived NX.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I have ridden many rerouted N trains down the espress track now that it's signalled. It's quite a run, except on an R68. That combined with all the new GT signals on the tracks makes for a ride even slower than if the train went local.
I have ridden many rerouted N trains down the espress track now that it's signalled. It's quite a run, except on an R68. That combined with all the new GT signals on the tracks makes for a ride even slower than if the train went local.
That stinks. Those GT's will getcha every time! I never rode the Sea Beach express tracks. I always envisioned it to be a bat out of hell type ride. Maybe it was, way back when. Those $^%$%^%$ GT's take all the fun out of train riding.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I rode it back in 83 Southbound not too bad, but not too fast due to the construction on the local track. Not the Brighton. It seemed faster in the 50s on a 3-6 car Standard Unit from the Franklin Line to Chambers St.
I rode it back in 83 Southbound not too bad, but not too fast due to the construction on the local track. Not the Brighton. It seemed faster in the 50s on a 3-6 car Standard Unit from the Franklin Line to Chambers St.
Could you tell me how that route went? Was it a loop? The way I envision it would be - leave Franklin Ave. Go down the Brighton, up the Sea Beach, through the Montague St. tunnel, up Nassau St., over the Manny B., down the Sea Beach, up the Brighton back to Franklin Ave. Was I close?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think you are right, but if If I remember correctly this was 45 years ago or more. It went across the bridge in both directions, the only loop trains I remember were the Culver Nassau Expresses
I think you are right, but if If I remember correctly this was 45 years ago or more. It went across the bridge in both directions
In other words - Leave Franklin Ave., down Brighton, up Sea Beach over Manny B. to Chambers. Leave Chambers, over Manny B. , down Sea Beach, up Brighton to Franklin Ave.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Did they split the run between multiple T/Os?
That's exactly how it ran. The BMT standards assigned to that special had a large white dot on one of the pantograph gates to identify that train as a Franklin-Nassau Special. In fact, there is a photo in Subway Cars of the BMT of Shore Line's 2775 on such a run, complete with white dot.
The white dot stayed on the train, even if it was the regular Shuttle from Franklin to Prospect Park.
01/13/2000
Weren't they nicknamed the "Bullseye" trains ?
Bill Newkirk
As it was explained to me, these CI specials started at Chambers St., ran over the Manhattan Bridge, through the bypass tracks at Dekalb, down the 4th Ave express to 59th, then non stop along the Sea Beach to CI. Then the line went up the Brighton line to Brighton Beach, switched to the express, ran to Prospect Park, switched over to the shuttle tracks and terminated at Franklin/Fulton. They didn't use Fulton or Broad St.
Thats about how I remember it.
Don't feel bad. I never had a chance to take an NX, either, although I do remember them on the maps. From what I've heard, the nonstop run was a treat, but it really bogged down between Stillwell Ave. and Brighton Beach.
Speaking of severed tracks, another example is Track 2 of the 42nd St. shuttle, the former southbound express track on the original mainline. The rails are still in place in the tunnel.
It would take slots away from the local that people would actually ride.
The entire Manhattan-bound express track is now fully signalled. The CI-bound express track is now isolated from connections to the other tracks and cannot be used by trains at all, except for the section from the Ave. S interlock to 86th St.
The entire Manhattan-bound express track is now fully signalled. The CI-bound express track is now isolated from connections to the other tracks and cannot be used by trains at all, except for the section from the Ave. S interlock to 86th St.
Isn't that useless? Why did they sever the connections?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Because the track isn't being used.
Because the track isn't being used.
Then why keep it and allow it to rust and decay. By now, even if it was connected and powered, it would probably be unsafe for trains to travel on. If they ever want to use it again in the future, they would probably have to put new trackage in anyway.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It costs money to remove. It costs nothing to let it sit there.
Plus, if it was removed, the tracks wouldn't be even anymore and it wouldn't look good.
It would also need to be signalled. 2 express tracks on the Sea Beach is really unnecessary.
This was similar to the idea proposed for the Rutgers-Dekalb connection. The Q would stay on 6th Av. and operate through the connection, and would still be the express and the D and M would be local. The additional space on the H tracks would be given to the T.
It doesn't make sense to have both lines going along close lines with no downtown access. The M belongs on Brighton.
It doesn't make sense to have both lines going along close lines with no downtown access. The M belongs on Brighton.
That's precisely why the Broadway Line has the Montague St. Tunnel service taking passengers to the Downtown area. When I worked at WTC, I used to take the Broadway Line to Cortlandt St. The Centre St. M Line is not needed on the Brighton. having the M on the Sea Beach would serve the same purpose. Hey, right now its on the West End. Does the M have to be on the Brighton?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They should have some kind of downtown service on the Brighton.
They should have some kind of downtown service on the Brighton.
If the Q ran on Broadway, they would.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
But it would go via the Manhattan Bridge and directly to Midtown.
But it would go via the Manhattan Bridge and directly to Midtown.
So bring back a single letter version of the QT along with it. Call it the X-Train.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No, the W
"No, the W"
Y
"No, the W"
Y
Brcause.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
how about some info. on train op. exam given tomorrow?
Ahh, so you're the one who sent me feedback.
There are study guides and newspapers that have this sort of information. It isn't contained on this web site since as you may or may not know, this isn't an official site of the MTA and we're not in the business of publicizing tests, or publishing rulebooks that have the "official" answers, etc. That being said, you can find a lot of information on this site that will come in handy when you take the test. Your best resource is to buy a study guide from the Civil Service Bookstore (and I think you might be able to get them from Amazon, et al.) and take the practice exams.
Thanks 100%
Also likely to be on file at most public librarys.
01/07/2000
I was watching WWF's Smackdown of CH.9 at 8PM last night, and a commercial came on featuring Mick Foley (aka Mankind,Cactus Jack,Dude Love) pitching for Chef Boyadree canned pasta. Several scenes shot around the NYC features Mick "on location" including coming out of an R-62A (1800 series,blue sticker) shot more than likely on the shuttle at Grand Central.
For those of you who may want to catch it, it will most likely air during and WWF broadcast to appeal to their audiences. Now, a follow up commercial taped on the Franklin Shuttle would be interesting! Don't laugh, professional wrestling makes more sense to me than Larry King Live !
Bill (The Bruiser) Newkirk
Still love the idea of one Sub-talker----Have the undertaker come out of the Cemetery and get on the "L"
Well ECW did an ambush of one of their wrestlers (New JAck) on the #6 line in the Bronx.
A couple of years ago, the WWF put on a show in Penn Station. They put the ring in the mezzanine area at the bottom of the escalators. The Undertaker beat up somebody on an escalator.
I know more about this than I should, I realize.
WWF used shots of the IRT #1 train years ago during
the "On NEXT WEEK's Show" match scenario on the ole
WWF Superstars Program.
I've seen it during WWF RAW is WAR on USA on Monday Nights. Great commercial!
With the great success on the trip to 155th Street Shuttle, I suggest a trip the IND abandoned 76th Street station near Pitkin Yard. Also, 84th Street station might exist. These stations were never opened.
106th Street station does not exist per may misstake.
Tell me something. If the 76 street station was part of the fulton st. line's South Queens extention,why didnt the TA use it? GOD knows the riders over there can use it. Also ,where exactly would the station be?Off Pitkins Avenue or Conduit blvd? My beak is wet for this one!!
Your beak is wet for this one. OKKK! There are four tracks that end against the wall at Euclid Avenue. There are two tracks at Pitkin Yard leads that via off to the east. The tail tracks at Euclid Avenue where meant to go to 76th Street station while the two tracks from Pitkin yard would meet at an interlocking at 76th Street and continue to 84th street. The signal contract number was S-45.
Is your beak wet now?
YEP! Track map,here I come!!! Question, why didnt the TA use this so called station?
Because it was never built. These tracks dead end well short of 78th St.
Question - what was the purpose of planning these stations? Was this part of a plan to replace the remainder of the Fulton St. el (80th St. to Lefferts) with a subway?
BTW-this is the best sight on the web - intelligent discussion, good humor, and knowledgeable contributors.
Have you ever seen any of the IND second system maps? This station may have something to do with that.
None of these stations exist. The tracks leading to them dead end, they don't lead into unused stations.
How do you know. I believe that 76th Street still exists.
People familiar with the complex of tunnels east of Euclid and also workers who've actually been down there have confirmed that no such station exists.
Did you know that the 76th Street was on the Euclid Tower panel at one time? I was told that the station does exist. A Subtalk trip is in order. LETS DO IT.
Perhaps. But being on the tower doesn't mean it was actually built. The Roosevelt Ave upper platform is there. But that doesn't mean the entire Winfield spur was built. People have already stated that no station is there, including workers from the Pitkin Ave. yard.
People have already stated that no station is there, including workers from the Pitkin Ave. yard.
How would he know that it is not there, if he's never been there?
; ) Elias
Aside from whether it exists or not, if it did, how would we get there?
This trip may not be the best idea. It sounds like you have to trespass in order to reach the sight of this apparently non-existant station. It also sounds like you have to walk on the tracks east of Euclid Avenue in order reach - nothing. Sounds dangerous. I don't want to have to attend the first Official SubTalker Funeral. Why doesn't someone (not me) contact the NYCT and inquire about this "station". In the highly unlikely event that it or remnants of it do exist perhaps an official tour with proper safeguards can be arranged.
Yeah, how about it. BTW, are you really serious b/c if not, I'm going to have to bring Geraldo on you ;-). If you are serious, I'm eager to find out if this myth of 76 St is fact, and we will know for sure and the speculation could come to a end.
Yeah, how about it. BTW, are you really serious b/c if not, I'm going to have to bring Geraldo on you ;-)
Yeah... you'd better bring professor Wonmug with you too!
*** That post is TWO YEARS OLD! ***
: ) Elias
I know, I realized that it was from January 7 of whatever year it was. How come you brought it back.
"How come you brought it back. "
Good ideas never die! : )
So good ideas may 'never' die but threads like this, posiibly fiction[its ACTUAL existence physically] don't die neither, right :o).
Today I acquired the last MetroCard in the set of 20 Millennial Journeys, 10 + 10, i.e. with & w/out credit card logo.
I have extras of all but 20th Century w/Am Exp, so if you missed one of them contact me off-line for a trade.
Mr t__:^)
I just got an e-mail from Scott. Apparently he had a computer crash....He is working on recovering it, and said a new update will be up shortly.
Thanks for the info, jeremy. Sorry to hear that Scott's computer crashed, but I'm glad he got it back up, and I'll look foward to the update :) -Nick
The above question says it all.
I'd hate to travel all the way to Newark for nothing- although the PATH ride is a lot of fun.
There's nothing on the NJT website about service diversions other than a statement that weekend service would be suspended through the end of 1999. That wasn't on the Travel Advisory page, however, just on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail / City Subway page. The phone number for questions is (973) 762-5100, daily 6 AM to midnight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't it be a packed house at Shea if The People's Champion (aka The Rock of WWF fame) were to tackle the ignorant hillbilly (aka John Rocker) in a no holds barred wrestling match? It could be billed as 'The Rock vs. The Rocker'. There could even be discounts to confirmed Mets season ticket holders for the special butt-kicking event. And the MTA could release a special commemorative MetroCard, too! ;-)
That would certainly put an end to the loud mouth from down south.
Oh, BTW, I hear that The Rock is invading Long Island this afternoon for a book signing tour. I think I recall hearing he did the same yesterday in Greenwich Village.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, the Rock already did a baseball gimmick with Nomar Garciaparra a few weks ago.
I'm told Rock's book is ghostwritten in character. I wonder how he spells 'jabronie'...
IT DOESN'T MATTER how he spells "jabronie", mainly 'cause he IS one. And that goes triple for John Rocker.
You can shine Rocker up real nice, and ...
well, you know the rest.
(said by "The Rock")
The Rock will make John Rocker write everything he
said on a piece of paper, do 15 push-ups, 16
crunches, 8 squats and a lap. Then The Rock will
tell John Rocker to take that piece of paper, put a
little hot sauce on it and shove it so far up his
candy a** he be tasting it the whole time The Rock
lays the smackdown on that Rudy-Poo.
The People's Champion
The Rock(,:|
It ain't a sport, but it sure fun to watch.
Yeah, I LOVE the verbal diatribes!
I haven't had so much fun HEARING a sport since the days of Ali and Howard Cosell at ringside. It brings back GREAT MEMORIES of the pinnacle of sportsmanship (the verbal putdowns).
Doug aka BMTman (sorry, I know I'm way off topic here)
From what son told me "The Rock" a/k/a Rocky Johnson is going to be at Tower Records on Route 110 in South Huntington at the South end of the Walt Whitman Mall Property. Tower is right next to Barnes & Noble.
Actually, his real name is Dwayne Johnson...Rocky J. is his daddy. Earlier in his career he used the name "Rocky Maivia" - the late High Chief Peter Maivia was his grandfather.
The winner of this match would then have his choice of getting his butt kicked in by either ECW's Sandman or WCW's Bill Goldberg. The loser of the Rock/Rocker match must spend the next month mopping up urine on the "D" train at 205th St.
[The loser of the Rock/Rocker match must spend the next month mopping up
urine on the "D" train at 205th St.]
GOOD GOD, MAN! That's cruel and unusual punishment!!!! No mere mortal could tackle such a task!!!
Steel dust is an attribute of the New York City subway and is loaded with asbestos. I wonder if steel dust can be melted down to be made in new running rails?
Maybe it can sold in bottles as novely item in the Transit Museum or maybe it is a cure for cancer or other diseases.
WHAT DO YOU THINK????
There's no asbestos in steel!
-Hank
But there is in older composition brake shoes
Steel wheels and rails wear bit its a slow process. Imagine the dust if they used rubber tired vehicles like Montreal or some of the people movers. They wear at a much faster rate.
Don't they now have a vacume for the subway? That should remove lots of the junk.
Is steel dust the tunnel dust I see in the tunnels and stations? After railfanning it usually leaves this soot behind in my nose.
That's the stuff. Nasty, isn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Had to go to Main Street to do some company business at the subway station. They have 3 esclators & one evelator ... all were out of service :-(
Saw two folks struggling to get down the stairs & a guy on crutches who I suggested to go down to the Main Street entrance that has less stains to decend.
(haven't been ready the other post related to Main Street as they seemed to turn into a racial thing which doesn't interest me)
Mr t__:^)
The "improvement" to the Main St station many shortcomings in the system. First off, the City paid for the entire thing - roughly $30 million even though it was eligible for 80% federal financing. Such financing would have required a review by the federal officials. The plan was so deficient that it could not have passed this review.
The escalators and elevator were purchased from a English vendor. Only 2 of the 3 escalators have ever worked. The local papers have reported some problems regarding a misreading of the voltage specifications for the motors.
The good news is by the time I got back their for my second visit one of the 3 esclators was working.
Mr t__:^)
[The escalators and elevator were purchased from a English vendor. Only 2 of the 3 escalators have ever worked. The local papers have reported some problems regarding a misreading of the voltage specifications for the motors.]
Yet another example of the TA's bumbling incompetence when it comes to escalators. It's not as if we're dealing with some exotic unproven technology. Escalators have been around for many decades, and many private businesses - shopping malls are my favorite example - deal with them just fine.
If I somehow became head of the TA (hey, we can dream, can't we?), my first official duty would be to summon to my office all TA managers responsible for escalator procurement and maintenance, and without further dicussion I'd uninstall* every last one of them on the spot. And then I'd summon the lawyers to see if there was some way I could forfeit these managers' vested pension rights.
* = "uninstall" seems to to be the trendy term these days, having edged ahead of "re-engineer" and "decruit."
[Yet another example of the TA's bumbling incompetence when it comes to escalators. It's not as if we're dealing with some exotic unproven technology. Escalators have been around for many decades, and many private businesses - shopping malls are my favorite example - deal with them just fine.]
My personal favorite--one year spent "refurbishing" the previously working escalators at 4th Street, after which they didn't work at all.
And what about that HORRIFIC fire in the London underground some years back that was caused by grease buildup/accumulation that was not cleaned out
Much of the escalator there was wooden, IIRC. That contributed significantly to the tragedy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And what about that HORRIFIC fire which happened a few years ago in the London underground that was caused by an accumulation of grease that was not cleaned out of an escalator.
I've had reason to ride the SIR two evenings this week, the express from St. George to Great Kills. While it certainly didn't rival some trips I recall from the 50's and 60's on the IRT, BMT or IND, I'd have to say at certain points we approached 40 MPH or so, which wasn't all that shabby. Just thought I'd share this with whomever might care.
That's not an R44. THATS a R44OH. The new ,improved versionof the R44. No more 80 mph trains here no way.A nice and easy 40 or maybe 50 mph at best will do for those [ha ha haaaa]STATEN ISLANDERS[who do these people think they are,anyway? there not really part of our great city ,so why should we care what they ride in?]
..|.,
-Hank
Received 77 Express Metro Cards on my order for 75. Two were blank, so I took them to Main Street see if they were any good, they were. When I got back to the office I called the TA HPEM office that "encodes" the blank stock for the system. They said it was a "miss feed" and I should look for bad cards just after the good ones. So, it was back to Main Street where I did find two of the cards that wouldn't scan in the reader. The Station Agent verified the s/n that was electronically on the "blank" cards (they matched the s/n printed on the two bad cards).
Question: Why didn't they catch this up front ... don't they double check the count ? Maybe they do it by s/n which did come out to 75.
Customer tip: If you get a card the doesn't show anything at all in the farebox/turnstile/reader go to your friendly agent & get a envolope to request a refund/replacement.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA, or NYC-DOT, just your friendly MetroCard retailer who also can take you for a ride (on our buses of course).
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
Did you report that there was a different version of Transit Check card?
Joe C.
Bill Newkirk & I noticed them. One with & one w/out www site. There's a third that the color is a little bolder.
Mr t__:^)
Was getting of the N in Brooklyn when I noticed that the train was slowly moving backward. Is there any safety mechanism that prevents the doors from opening when the train is moving?
I always thought that the train couldn't take any power (or accelerate) with the doors open, but it seems that there's nothing to prevent the train from moving if the brakes are not fully applied. I've seen plenty of trains move an inch or so while their doors were open.
Wayne
This sort of happened to me on Metro North. I was taking the train home and at GCS the train doors opened and then the train moved forward about a couple of inches.
This only happened to me once, on the R110 B in August of '98 on the C line...hopefully this won't be seen on the R143. -Nick
the train isn't taking power there isn't enough brake pressure in the cylinders hold the train still.
Nope, although I think the new cars will have an interlock to
prevent door opening unless the speedometer reads 0.
What usually causes this (train moving with doors open) is the
motorman prematurely releasing the brakes while the train
is stopped on a grade. I guess this saves 0.05 seconds getting
going once indication is received. With comp shoes sometimes
even minimum brake won't hold a train on a grade. There is no
interlock (such as one might find on a bus) to keep the brakes
applied until doors are closed.
I believe the M-4s in Philly have a relay that only allows the doors to open once the train slows to something like 5 MpH. That's good for safety, but it's not zero, and quite often the operator will open the doors before the train has stopped, the way some elevators work.
If you sit behind the cab, you can hear the relay click. I assume that's what it is anyway - I have no way of knowing for sure that the click sound is a relay, or that's what it controls, but it makes the most sense.
A full serivce application won't hold a train in series! Do that and then press the bypass. Watch the train go all by itself when you take you hand off the controller. ATO already exists in NY.
if it won't hold the train it sure will gouge the runniing rails and burn the motor leads and the resistors. if the power is applied and the train is full service you don't need someone there since the deadman is no longer in effect if train has indication.
Trust me. It won't gouge the rails or hurt the resistors or motor leads. The train accelerates and reaches a top speed of about 20 MPH easily. The wheels will over heat if it's done for any appreciable distance.
It's a great way to clear the timers on the Manhattan bridge. I know of several motormen who do this on a daily basis. Never hurt a train yet. Possibly the only benifit of the BS J relay mods.
"There is no
interlock (such as one might find on a bus) to keep the brakes
applied until doors are closed."
My brother who is a bus driver tells a great story about that interlocking. One of his co-workers (a while ago) was working the N-20 Hickesville to Flushing and was parked on Roosevelt Av by Main. For some reason the rear door didn't close all the way, it was stuck open. He got up, went to the rear and hit the door to close it. All of the sudden the bus lurched forward hitting the bus in front of him!! He had left the bus in gear!!!!! Luckily there was nobody walking between the buses!!!
That's one thing they missed when the transition was made from
Trolleys or Trolley Coaches to Motorbuses.....the deadman!
If you've ever seen a PCC or a trolleycoach, there's a third
pedal, where the clutch pedal would be on a vehicle with a
transmission, and that has to be pushed down otherwise the
brakes are fully applied.
Modern NYC buses have an additional interlock. After the rear door is closed and locked, the brake must be depressed in order to release the first interlock.
I always remember the front doors on a bus flinging open before coming to a stop.
NYC TRANSIT
I was on an express bus in Boston once, coming home from work. It was pouring rain, and the bus was PACKED. The driver's defroster wasn't working, so she drove through part of downtown, prior to getting on the Mass Pike, with the front doors OPEN.
Talk about unsafe...
I was on an express bus in Boston once, coming home from work. It was pouring rain, and the bus was PACKED. The driver's defroster wasn't working, so she drove through part of downtown, prior to getting on the Mass Pike, with the front doors OPEN.
Talk about unsafe...
I've seen that too. Its not at all that uncommon, especially when the A/C isn't working and the windows on the bus don't open.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The only bad thing about that is you don't get to see the doors open and close. That's the most interesting part of a bus, if you ask me! :-)
What about when a T/O plays with the Air (you hear some hiss hissing) to let the C/R know he has a green light (instead of using the buzzer or intercom)?? Does that release any of the brakes?
I think they have to buzz every time. When the train charges up you hear some air too, and the motorman isn't even near the brake. They play with the air too when the doors are kept open for along time, or when the indication doesn't turn on, sort of like "Hey buddy you forgot something." When they play with the air it releases the brake but they can just pull the handle back and that adds more brake again.
What you say is true. When I was a Conductor, I worked with many T/O's who would release some air from the brakes to let you know it was time to go. Funny thing though, this is unoffical. When I was new I always needed the T/O to buzz me, until I caught on.
all train ops release some brake pressure this way when its time to go it saves some time to get underway. unless you like the sound of the brakes squealing as the train starts moving the result of the brakes not being properly released.
I love that! I got even with one conductor who gave me a hard time about everything except nonsense. Waiting for indication in full service and even dropping out Control cutout before initiating the braking sequence definately sent him looking for his hearing protection, which finally straightened him out. Dropping down the straight air is a courtesy to the conductors so they will not be staring at the board long after the key was turned.
It does release the brakes, but not fully. If the T/O releases the brakes below 20lbs then he runs the risk of the train rolling.
The trains on the MontrŽal Metro ALWAYS open their doors before the train comes to a complete stop! The trains come flying into the station and brake to 2-3 mph and glide forward for a couple of seconds as the doors open. The train usually reaches a complete stop just after the doors are fully open. These trains are entirely ATO, so they are apparently supposed to work this way. It doesn't seem to pose a major safety issue, but if you happen to be leaning on the doors, you'll get a surprise as you knock into a few people while the train is still slowing down!
sounds completely UNSAFE and should not occur PERIOD. ANY train should be at a COMPLETE stop whether it be automated or not, someone could be seriously injured if those doors opened even at the slowest speed. To me it is a MAJOR SAFETY ISSUE when a trains doors are open and the train is still in motion be it 1 mph or 3. same for commuter railroads were as the train is moving to a stop and usually the Conductor is stepping off the train onto the platform. Passengers are always told to wait till the train comes to a COMPLETE stop before exiting the train WHo really pays attention? as usual some IDIOT falls and is injured and sues the transit system they were riding..
This morning, I was on a Grosvenor-bound train going from Friendship Heights to Grosvenor. On this train a few months ago, I had an operator who was annoying as can be from the minute until you get on the train until you after you are off. I got the same train with an operator who was quick and to the point with his announcements until we got to Grosvenor. After the doors opened, he said "Do not attempt to board this train, this train is out of service. Passengers aboard this train, get off. This train is out of service. No more, No mas, All finished. This train, is out of service." Why can't he go to the pocket track and turn his train around? He was 2 minutes early (scheduled to arrive at 7:59, arrived at 7:57) but why doesn't he move to the pocket and head back to Silver Spring?
BTW: I provide some Spanish to English translation
Here in Philly last night, I had a pleasant and downright likeable TO taking the El home. He announced the time, joked with some passengers and said good evening to exiting passengers at the outer stations.
Why can't all SEPTA employees be that nice to deal with?
>Why can't all SEPTA employees be that nice to deal with?
Cause then it wouldn't be Septa!!!
Is this the same el that has automated announcements?
Yep.
As to the question "why can't the operator be more to the point?", I would say that people generally don't listen the first time.
Sometimes, on the line I drive on, I have a train that departs from one terminal station (connection to the subway) and only goes to our line's "main" station, where the depot is also located. The train then goes into the depot. When I leave the next-to-last station (Larsberg), I then announce:
"Next stop, Aga station. This train is going out of service. All passengers must leave this train. The next regular departure from Aga to Gåshaga will be at (time, e.g. 8:52). Aga station."
A lot of people (the ones who listen) probably think I run my mouth too much, but I know that a lot of passengers pay little or no attention to the announcements because when I check the train in this situation at Aga, to make sure nobody is still on it, people often are, and I have to ask them to get off.
I've also found that switching off the lights in the passenger compartment helps people get a clue, at least in the wintertime.
:-)
-- Tim
This morning, I was on a Grosvenor-bound train going from Friendship Heights to Grosvenor. On this train a few months ago, I had an operator who was annoying as can be from the minute until you get on the train until you after you are off. I got the same train with an operator who was quick and to the point with his announcements until we got to Grosvenor. After the doors opened, he said "Do not attempt to board this train, this train is out of service. Passengers aboard this train, get off. This train is out of service. No more, No mas, All finished. This train, is out of service." Why can't he go to the pocket track and turn his train around? He was 2 minutes early (scheduled to arrive at 7:59, arrived at 7:57) but why doesn't he move to the pocket and head back to Silver Spring?
BTW: I provide some Spanish to English translation as well as how to get around the subway. No mas means no more en espanol.
Recently, I read an article here about a new system called MetroLink put forth by the Regional Planning Association.
I don't know if this has been mentioned here before or not, but this MetroLink is basically what we would all like the Second Avenue Subway to be, extending down the east side into Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx and goes further by including provisions for a one-seat JFK to downtown/midtown rail trip.
Is this a rehashed 2AS(2nd Avenue Subway) or a scaled down commuter railroad operating solely within city limits?
I read the article mself. I think that it is a good idea. Comments........
3TM
For those who haven't followed it, this rundown of the controversy over a Mets minor league stadium at the Parade Grounds may foreshadow the outcome of the battle over the MTA capital plan. The possible analogies are in parenthesis.
The Parade Grounds are used for soccer and baseball, and are in terrible shape for both (ie. the Lex and LIRR are crowded).
An an interim measure until a Coney Island Stadium could be built, the Mayor proposed taking part of the Parade Grounds and using it for a Mets minor league stadium temporarily, using the rest of the Parade Grounds for parking, and leaving a nice baseball field behind (the MTA proposed building the LIRR to GCT, but just studying a partial Second Avenue stubway).
Soccer parents were angry (my girls play too), and a bunch of groups including the Brooklyn Borough President filed a lawsuit which -- win or lose -- threatened to delay the temporary stadium beyond the beginning of the baseball season (City representatives threatened to block the MTA capital plan).
While the Mets looked elsewhere for a temporary home, the Mayor then offered to not use the rest of the Parade Grounds for parking, and to fix up the whole thing for baseball and soccer, if the lawsuits were dropped (perhaps the Governor will offer to fund the whole stubway, and study the rest, if the LIRR to GCT can go forward).
Most of those who were upset earlier felt this was fair, and dropped their opposition and lawsuits (reasonable subway advocates would be happy with that deal).
But the Brooklyn Borough President, who cares nothing for the soccer players or baseball players, feels dissed by the Mayor and just wants to stick it to him, has refused to drop his lawsuit, threatening to scuttle the deal (Sheldon Silver, that knight in shining armor, will block that deal because it doesn't include the full Second Avenue subway, and Hillary can promise to get it).
Future: the Parade Grounds remain a mess and the Mets farm team ends up in Queens (neither the LIRR to GCT or Second Avenue gets built and the money is used to build a proposed highway from Plattsburhg to Watertown).
They could move the team to Marine Park across the Strret from Joe Torre s old(sisters present) house. Here we are 45 years later and now they are talking about building a ball park in Coney Island, but this time for a Minor League Team. if they did it in 1956 the Dodgers would most likely still be in Brooklyn, The Angeles would be a National League Expansion team, and the American League Team in Anaheim would be what?
Acutally, the idea in 1956 was to build a domed stadium at the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic Ave., I believe on top of the LIRR station (which may be where the people at Madison Square Garden and the Pennslyvania Railroad got their dumb idea from). Whether or not the plan was either BS from Bob Wagner or the technology for a domed stadium was still a few years off, the thing never got built and the rest, as they say, is history.
Have you noticed that the Atlantic Center mall--insofar as it looks like anything besides a big box--looks like a baseball stadium? All those pennants, the arch shapes plastered on the sides. I've been assuming the developer wanted to give the thing "local color" and remembered that old plan for a second Ebbets Field on the site next door. (You can see why he didn't go with the Fort Greene Meat Market....)
The Parade Grounds has been slowly taken away from the kids over the last half-century.
When I was a kid it was a wide open field from Parade Place to the bocci fields near Coney Island Ave. There were baseball diamonds arrayed on three sides, but they weren't really maintained.
Still there was plenty of room for baseball and softball or anything else you wanted to play. Whichever groups of kids got to the diamonds first played, except that the Little League (such as it was) was able to reserve diamonds.
Then they started cutting it up and formalizing it. It would be the final blow to turn it into a professional field. Why can't they use an undeveloped area like Marine Park, or an unused/underused area like Bush Terminal?
What next? A tennis stadium in the Botanic Gardens?
marine park is neither unused or undeveloped. The parade ground makes much more sense for a professional fiel. 100% of marine park and it's surrounding ecology center are used. The parade grounds are perfect. They are run down and screeming for a greater purpose. This field although taking a few soccer fields away will provide a top tier stage for brooklyn baseball players to play when the stadium moves to ci
So why not put the stadium in Coney Island in the first place?
(Why not put the Stadium in Coney Island in the first place).
The answer is enough to make you barf. The Coney Island Stadium has to go through the city's land use approval process, which takes years. So the Mayor tried to stick a stadium at the Parade Grounds as a temporary (ie. exempt from this process) use. The Borough President is suing so the temporary stadium has to go through years of red tape also, so he gets his say.
The Parade grounds doesn't look to me to be big enough to provide the space needed for a minor league stadium (if you're going to consider parking facilities). It is one block long (and wide) although it is a HUGE block long, I'll give you that.
Rudy G. didn't want to go for the much more realistic Coney Island site because -- like a spoiled child -- it wasn't his idea (Brooklyn BP Howard Golden's proposal had been on the drawing boards for years).
Doug aka BMTman
"Future: the Parade Grounds remain a mess and the Mets farm team ends up in Queens"
GOOD! I think it's an absolute INSULT to have a minor league team in the greatest (by population too) borough. Queens and Bronx have major league baseball teams, Giuliani wants one in Manhattan (at cost to the Bronx of course). Pathetic little suburban and outcast 400K person borough of Staten Island gets a Minor Legue stadium, so a REAL borough like Brooklyn has to be relegated to the same low level as that isolated island? Had Brooklyn remained an independent city, the Dodgers would be playing on Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues, perhaps elsewhere, but it would still be in THE CITY OF BROOKLYN.
To late by 102 years and 44 years.. Tear down the Apt Houses and rebuild Ebbets Field. Marine Parks sounds like a Good idea, or maybe Dyker Beach near Bay Pkwy or even Floyd Bennett Field
Coney Island is not a bad idea for a place to put a ballpark, even if Rudy doesn't think so. It has both subway and auto connections (via the Belt Parkway) and is already a commercial area, though definitely in need or revitalization.
I know Coney Island is never going to be what it was 80 to 100 years ago in terms of a place for everyone in New York to go, but a minor league park there can be expected to attact middle class families who can't afford more than one outing to Shea or Yankee Stadium a year, due to the costs. Other businesses might then be convinced to locate in the area if they thought the neighborhood was on the rise again.
I think people are confused here.
1) Rudy wants to put a ballpark an Coney Island, but because it will require the city's multi-year review process, he needs a temporary park right now. Hence the Parade Ground. Borough President Golden is against the Coney Island Stadium, sort of.
2) Brooklyn pols (ie. Howard Golden) had planned to put a small arena for school sports (ie baskeball) on the same site, the Brooklyn Sportsplex. The City agreed to endorse state financing for new minor league stadia upstate in exchange for funding the Sportsplex. Guess what happened? Let's just say the upstate minor league parks got built.
3) Rudy has decided that if Golden wants the Sportsplex, he's against it. Golden has decided if he can't have his Sportsplex, he's against the minor league stadium. He also believes that Brooklyn could attract a team from a higher independent league.
4) Rudy is afraid the community would try to block the minor league stadium if it were proposed at the same time as the Sportsplex, because they'd yell about traffic. Plus he'd have to build parking garages to have room for both and parking, and that costs money.
5) Private developers wanted to build a BIG, YEAR ROUND, TAXPAYING ENTERTAINMENT-THEMED DEVELOPMENT on the side. Can't a something that pays, as oppose to absorbs, taxes in Brooklyn can we? Located at the confluence of four subway lines, urban snobs said it was too "suburban." In a location that once had 1,000,000 square feet of retail, it was considered not in keeping with the history of Coney Island. It was stuffed.
Are you still with me? Are you feeling ill yet?
Now the Wildlife Conservation Society is (quietly, not politically correct) interested in pulling out of Coney Island because it is an isolated location, and no one who is not from Brooklyn wants to go there.
You will never believe what just passed my window. The Bombardier R142s were being delivered uptown as we speak. The cars are headed north on the 2/5 to East 180th St. It's a bizarre consist:
N1(SBK)-RiderCar-N2(SBK)-6306-07-08-09-10-RiderCar-Diesel(TA).
Any Other Details, I'll be sure to share with you.....
-Stef (Excited Guy)
Yeah, Stef, I knew about their arrival. And I am kicking myself for not taking the day off and going over to Linden Shops where NY&A did the transfer of the 142's with SBK. It all happenned around lunch time. I could have gotten some priceless shots from the Livonia Canarsie Line station's view of the LIRR Bay Ridge.
The 142's entered the system via the Linden shops' connection to the New Lots Line.
You'll get 100% on the test, believe me.
Talk to you later.
Doug aka BMTman
You knew? Why didn't you share that with the rest of us?
-Stef
I found out TWO hours before and was not near my computer when I found out. Otherwise, yes, I would have posted the information.
If I get a better "leeway" (if there's a next time) I'll be sure to post an alert thread here.
Doug aka BMTman
I love how these people don't tell us until after the fact. They do "SubTalk" tours and only tell people after they do it, What gives????? Are we not good enough for you to share info with??? Or to have on your tours? I never said anything but it really bugs me. Bay Ridge, Coney Island/ Stillwell and others. And we all find out AFTER it happened. If that is the case, Don't announce it as a "SubTalk tour" Why bother posting that you knew all about it until after the fact???? Ego trip???? What's the point??????
See my other post -- I ALWAYS post information IF I get it within a reasonable amount of time.
Don't take the bait Doug, there is a hot link on the top of the page that is pretty self explaining "UPCOMING EVENTS". If this child hasn't learned how to use hot links well then...
See I don't know how to type HTML or want to take the time to do it so UPCOMING EVENTS in this message is not linked to the page.
BUT Doug, you should have called me!!!! ;-P
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that all the tours were posted and fully discussed before the event.
At length, even. The tour was announce in the forum, details and meeting places were discussed in the forum, who was going to be there was discussed in the forum, and the date, time, and meeting place were posted in the upcoming events section at least 2 weeks before the tour. If you missed it, it's your own fault.
-Hank
I have more info to share on the delivery of the new cars. A friend here pointed out that the new cars were coming from Linden Yard. I could have guessed where they were coming from since N1 and N2 were aboard. Imagine this.... A 1950 R15 coupled to a 2000 R142. Incredible! The cars go back 50 years. The train made it into the East with little or no difficulty according to the radio transmissions I heard. The train was left outside for a few minutes until the 10 car transfer (5 work units and 5 newly delivered cars) received the appropriate line up to the yard. 6306-6310 were destined for Track 13 in the barn. In order to get successfully into the barn, the TA diesel and rider car at the south of the train uncoupled and were moved to the side, while N1 and N2 pushed in the new kids on the block.
The locomotives are up in that yard tonight. If you see Red Locomotives over the weekend, you'll know that they came frim Linden Yard.
Furthermore, there are supposed to be a total of twenty cars now at the East. All Kawasaki Units should be there, 7211-7220. They arrived sometime ago. Those were the cars that were trucked into 239th St. These units are currently stored on Track 11. You'll know the cars being that they are the nearest to the windows in the shop and they are lighted. Bombardier 6301-6305 should also be inside. This was a Linden Yard delivery done sometime ago. 6306-6310 have just arrived tonight. 6311-6312 are at 207th St yard, and I'd guess that 3 additional units (6313-6315) will be coming in soon.
That's all folks. Start getting your pics, won't you?
-Stef
I wonder if that was Rider Car RD335 out there. We saw here at Coney Island a couple of months ago, she looked OK for her age.
I just KNOW I'm going to get goose bumps and chills seeing a car wearing #6304 again. At least this time it won't ever get to be the fifth car in the train (could only be the 2nd, 4th, 7th or 9th).
Wayne
What's wrong with 6304?
R16 6304 was wrecked in 1970 at Roosevelt Av. She was crossing from the express to the local track as R40M 4501 plowed into her. 4501 was disabled due to mechanical problems and the T/O was operating from the 3rd Car, unaware of what was in the fromt of him. Then the accident occurred.
-Stef
A T/O can control the train from the third car? Without being able to see what's in front of him? Does the term "stupid" apply to this action?
A T/O can control the train from the third car? Without being able to see what's in front of him? Does the term "stupid" apply to this action?
Believe it or not, its not such an unusual procedure.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Am I the only one who sees this practice as flirting with disaster? How does the T/O see the signals? Perhaps this might be safer within a yard, but on revenue tracks? Who the hell is running things down at MetroTech?
This procedure is used in E-M-E-R-G-E-N-C-I-E-S!!!!!! It is not used in regular service, and never would be, for the reasons you named!
David
You'd think after having a collision during one of these "emergency" moves would make the Ta think twice about ever doing it, even if it did tie up service.
OK, Chris, you've identified what you believe is a problem. Do you have a solution to propose?
Let's be fair about this: Does anyone (especially Train Operators or their supervisors) out there view other-than-head-car operation in the NYCT system, performed as called for under NYCT's rules, as a problem? Does anyone have a solution to propose?
David
What are the rules? Since I'm ignorant of them I can't comment intelligently on the subject (not that that has necessarily stopped me before, but ...)
Seriously, I don't know what the rules for operation are, but I would assume that they would involve a spotter in the lead car who was in communication with the T/O, would involve restricted speed, and would require dispatch/control to be in constant communication with the train as well. Assuming those three rules at a minimum I would think that a train could be operated safely from the failure point to a location where it could be taken in tow or reversed to run normally to a yard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not being able to see the signals was the reason that made me think this kind of operation was incredibly dangerous/stupid, but as it's been explained, another person with a radio relays the signal condition back to the motorman operating the train. Now it makes a bit more sense.
Backing a cut of freight cars with a brakeman on the lead car using a radio is quite common in "regular" railroading.
Am I the only one who sees this practice as flirting with disaster? How does the T/O see the
signals? Perhaps this might be safer within a yard, but on revenue tracks
It's not a problem unless you make it a problem.
When operating other-than-head-car (OTHC), another qualified
TA employee is stationed in the head car. Via radio, buzzer or
PA, the head man gives regular, periodic signals to the operator.
The usual phrase is "keep it comin". If for whatever reason that
affirmative signal stops or the operator doesn't hear it clearly,
the operator stops the train. The procedure is only used in
emergencies. There are no passengers on the train and an absolute
block is used between interlockings. Speed is restricted to,
errr, 20 MPH I think.
Other than the 1970 fatal accident, which predated this procedure,
I'm not aware of any accidents caused by OTHC.
Flagging other than head end is not a problem if you go by the rules. The rule book states that in all cases when a train is operated from other than the head end that positive communications must be established and maintained. This operation is used on a DAILY BASIS, such as when you see a work train being pushed. Scrap and shell car moves on the mainline and in and out of main shop yards are not capable of moving on their own power and are tugged and shoved by "horses" with the electric portions and/or angles pulled. The likely hood of a collision is high when these simple rules are not followed. By the way, the maximum speed allowed when operating a bad order or restricted train is "restricted speed", a rule too long to print but the limit not to exceed ten MPH.
I don't have my TA rule book handy....restricted speed is usually
defined as "a speed, not to exceed XX MPH, permitting stopping
short within one half range of vision of any obstruction, unsafe
condition or discontinuity in track {or overhead}"
Is XX 10 MPH in the TA rulebook? It is 15 on most railroads.
An easy way ro remember Restricted speed is:
10 Speed 10 MPH or less
2 Stop your train 2 car's from any visible obstruction
1/2 Operate within 1/2 range of your vision
F Be ready to make a fast stop
S Observing all tracks and switches
U Being alert to any obstructions that are unsafe to pass.
This comes from memory, it's not the rule word for word.
What do you think happens when the lead car goes dead, has a master controller problem or has a brake pipe rupture? The operator will sit in that car all day hoping it will eventually clear itself up? If you would read the rule book or simply ask someone who knows the book, you would find out that there are rules governing operation when the controlling capabilities of the first car cease to exist. The word "stupid" does not apply to this action. Keep it up, Chris, I might be your trainer one day.
Yes. You should wait until someone can move the problematic car. Operating a train from the 3rd car is very dangerous. I can't believe this is ever allowed.
Since I'm not going to be a T/O, You'll never be training me.
My second year on the road, I had an R27 with a master controller fire. I was hired in the movement of cars involved in collisions. I have operated work trains with a diesel on one end. What happens when that train has to go back from the site to the yard? Should they leave the train there until the TA figures out a way to magically put the engine on the other end. Maybe the TA should put an interlocking at each end of every station. Do you think the chunks of cars 1437 and 1439 were operated on their own power? For every move there is supposed to be a backup. As is for every move there is a failure. Although doing these moves can be a little scary, the rules provide that these type of moves can be done from other than head car operation ONLY when positive communication is attained. Therefore flagging bad trains can be safe. The Roosevelt Avenue wreck occured because communications ceased at a very critical time.
Howabout if they put one of those AAA stickers on the bumper of the rear car and wait for a tow-train to arrive...
Howabout if they put one of those AAA stickers on the bumper of the rear car and wait for a tow-train to arrive...
HE HE HE HE !!
It would be AAA for the IRT, or BBB for the BMT and IND. The towtrain can take the disabled train to the nearest yard. :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's almost worth a rim shot.
IIRC, the brakes on that ill-fated train in 1970 were cut out in the first two cars.
I believe that is what they did when #4191 lost her brake line back on December 11th - they operated the disabled "B" from #4248, the third car. She went straight back to the Shoppe, do not pass "Go". Lucky thing she was at Stillwell. The RCI was up front in #4191 with one other employee, wearing a safety vest and carrying a radio.
Wayne
other than head-end operation is a piece of cake you just need someone who knows how to flag on the front which will make the move some much easier. secondly once you've isolated the problem car(s) movement should be a snap...oh yes i forgot you have to wait till supervision shows up on the scene before anything else could happen
NO, the term "stupid" does not apply to this action.
But I'm begining to think it applies to you. Continually
I'm impressed by your lack of knowledge in the areas you
deign to critcize! You have managed to insult or annoy
three seperate people here that I know of. How many others
I can only guess at.
As a transportation professional I can tell you that if
there was no shoving movement, as we called it on the
railroad, or other than head end operation here in the TA,
then there would be no movement at all. How do work trains
with a single locomotive get around? With OTHE movement.
How do disabled trains move? Same way.
Freight trains dropping cars at a siding, shoving
movement. Heck as an engineer part of an integrated team,
I wouldn't make my conductor walk the ground, and hang off
cars unless it was neccesary. A track holds 20 cars and I
have 18 I back the train up untll the engne gets to the
switch and stop. Why not? I know the room exists. I can
see there are no obstructions from the engine.
I once hung from a boxcar all the way from Long Island
City passenger yard to Fresh Pond Yard while we shoved a
cut of cars because it was easier than going back into
yard A and running the engine around. All along flagging
my train.
When a train is flagged the engineer or motorman becomes
an extesion of the conductors hands. The conductor is now
operating the train. His eyes and judgement. That's why
conductors are trained the same rules and signals for
these exigiences.
I have done this twice here at the TA. Both times
ironically from R-32's.The rules here are essentially the
same as on the railroad. If followed there will be no
problem and it's perfectly safe. I had no fear on the
railroad doing either. And there's no emergency brake cord
on a freight car!
Oh, and the rules of the operating department, LIRR read
as thus: RESTRICTED SPEED
A speed not exceeding 15 MPH at which a train can be
stopped within one half the range of vision, short of the
next signal, another train, or obstruction. Looking out
for broken rail or crossing protection not functioning.
Amazingly enough the TA in it's infinate mediocrity hasn't
got a similar rule.
Erik, no Restricted Speed rule in the TA rulebook? What
happened to the rule that used to be 39N concerning
proceeding after being given permission to pass a red signal?
Yeah but that only concerns when you pass a red signal, but what about in the yards? The rule there says simply restricted speed (which is defined only as 10 MPH) and extreme cauton. There is no spelled out definition of restricted speed as on the railroads.
One very long BUZZZZZZZZZZ here, Jeff. Rule 39N has to do with the maximum train length. The rule you are likely thinking of was formerly referred to as 37N but has subsequently been changed to Rule #40N. In rule 36 & 37N (old rule book) "Restricted Speed" was defined as that speed which would allow the operator to stop within one half of his range of vision.
Oh yeah 37N...whatever...I remember it was rule something
"Nancy", and you'd always hear the speech from Command
Center (before they became Control Center (again)) reciting
the rule.
But Erik has an interesting point...in every RR rulebook
I've seen, Restricted Speed is not only 1/2 range of vision,
it also spells out a list of dangers to be on the lookout
for. Although wording varies, they generally include broken rail,
switch lined against you, train ahead and/or opposing movement, i.e.
all of the things that a red signal would normally protect against.
After recieving permission to pass a red automatic from Control Center train operator is to operate 1-10mph or less 2-stop 2 car lengths from object on or near trackway 3-stop within 1/2 range of vision 4-prepare to make and immediate stop 5-check switches for correct lineup 6-stop if it appears unsafe to move through area
the formula I was taught in School Car
10-mph or less
1/2-stop within 1 half range of vision
F-make a FAST stop/prepare to make an immmediate stop
S-switches/lineup shcek for proper route if accepting a Call-on
U-if trackway/roadway appears unsafe STOP
Only the radio or sound powered phones may be used in OTHC moves and the train is not to go above 10 mph. If the T/O stops receiving instructions from the flagger he must stop immediately, and if the T/O is not following the flaggers instructions the flagger must operate the EBV. Also Chris if you plan on becoming a C/R you will be taught this procedure as well as reading the signals and iron.
Any train numbered 6300-6499 has to deal with the curse of the R16.
Until now, the IRT hasn't had any lemons on the system since the makeshift Flivers were put in service 90 years ago. Hopefully, the R-142s will keep the record intact and not follow the pattern of their B division cousins.
Didn't the R62 have problems early on? You're correct, the IRT cars haven't had the same dismal record of performance when they were new. The R46 debacle was probably the worst.
It's also true to point out that after about 1915, the BMT was always the line that had the experimental equipment, while the IRT has always stuck with pretty plain vanilla stuff until now. That's no excuse for the R-44 or the R-46, though thanks to those fine pieces of engineering, the IRT did get some rolling stock with reliable time-tested technology in the R-62 series. And back in 1984 with the MBDF the way it was, that was definitely what the MTA needed.
Yes, up until the R units began arriving, the IRT was stuck in a rut in terms of rolling stock, WF Lo-Vs notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the BMT was thinking ahead.
OK !!! the bombadier r 142 ?? ....!!!! i will give them 10 ( TEN YEARS ) and then they will fall apart !!!!
wont even make good SCRAP MATERIAL !!!!! it just """ aint going to last !!""
RD335? She could be anywhere dpending on where the car is needed.
I wonder if the older R12/14/15 Rider Cars are due for replacement? I have reason to believe that the R33 WF cars going out of service at some time will be used in part to replace those aging cars. The average R12/14/15 is 50 years old.
Don't look too badly on 6304. I certainly don't think history is going to repeat itself.
-Stef
Don't look too badly on 6304. I certainly don't think history is going to repeat itself.
Hey, there have been at least 2 100's since the Malbone St. wreck - R-1 #100 and R-44 #100. Nothing happened to them. BTW, after the R-44 renumbering, which R-Type was numbered 100?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
100 was christened 5264 on 3/27/92 (date of overhaul).
-Stef
100 was christened 5264 on 3/27/92 (date of overhaul).
I'm aware of the OH renumberings. I was asking what R-Tpye today bears the number 100? If not 100 due to the Museum R-1, is the original R-44 number series in use? I couldn't find anything in Dave Pirmann's Illustrated Car Roster section. Your response brings up another question. If R-44 #100 was renumbered 5264, is there also a 5290 and 5292, or were these numbers skipped because of the Museum Lo-V cars?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There are no cars that bear the name 100 at the present time other than the R1. On Staten Island, the R44s retained their original numbering, and are 388-466. Note that there was another famous car numbered 388, and it's the SIRT Car which Branford has presently in it's posession. 5290,92,5443, and 5483 are all in use at the present time by the R44s, and one R46 (5483). There are no skips in the numbers because the cars would be distinguished by Museum Status and nothing more. Also, there are other numbers reserved for Museum Cars which are also in use by the cars carrying passengers presently.
-Stef
There are no cars that bear the name 100 at the present time other than the R1. On Staten Island, the R44s retained their original numbering, and are 388-466. Note that there was another famous car numbered 388, and it's the SIRT Car which Branford has presently in it's posession. 5290,92,5443, and 5483 are all in use at the present time by the R44s, and one R46 (5483). There are no skips in the numbers because the cars would be distinguished by Museum Status and nothing more. Also, there are other numbers reserved for Museum Cars which are also in use by the cars carrying passengers presently.
-Stef
Thanx.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And for the truly curious, R44 #5290 is ex #104; #5292 is ex #108 and #5443 is ex #103. Purely the luck of the draw. R46 #5483 is ex #935.
Wayne
I will give your new bombardier R142s 10 YEARS then they will not even be good scrap material!!11
they wont last !!!!!!
Do you think the Kawasakis will do any better?
On another point - I simply DESPISE those double-windowed end doors. Who came up with such an insipid idea?
Wayne
You need two hands to open it. That's the point.
You see, so many people obviously DO NOT hate older stuff. It's the newer stuff that's hated!
You see, so many people obviously DO NOT hate older stuff. It's the newer stuff that's hated!
Like Alan Glick said:
Older is better than newer because it was there first.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You were the one who asked why so many people hate the old stuff!
You were the one who asked why so many people hate the old stuff!
It wasn't me. I was just responding to a post. I think the regular riding public dislikes the old stuff (hates is a bit strong), but I don't think many railfans hate the old stuff, although there are a few. The old stuff is nice. Why do you think railfans pay a premium to ride fan trips? The regular riding public thinks we're crazy. Hey, give me a nice BMT Standard, chocolate brown exterior, pullman green interior, with paddle fans, rattan seats, bull and pinion spur-cut gears, incandescent lighting, a railfan window (UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and I'm happy.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think the public generally thinks newer is better, but familiarity with the old tends to breed if not hostility, then at least apathy with a mild disdain. However, plug one of the old trains back into the system the way they did with the Low Vs on the 6 back in 1979, and the public loves them again. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
I'd flip to see a train of Standards pull into Woodhaven Blvd. on the J line for my commute to work. However, I don't want to see the entire J line comprised of those old cars. I prefer the quieter, air conditioned cars for my regular rides, thank you.
Hey, my proposal would be for five full-length trains of the four different car types, but the nine-car Standards would then have to run on the Southern Division to fit on the 600-foot platforms. Oh well, based on what they've done with the R-110B, a few extra cars for spare parts probably wouldn't be a bad idea.
I think the public generally thinks newer is better, but familiarity with the old tends to breed if not hostility, then at least apathy with a mild disdain. However, plug one of the old trains back into the system the way they did with the Low Vs on the 6 back in 1979, and the public loves them again. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
I wasn't talking about the public. I was talking about railfans, and although the post is for everybody to see, I was responding to and addressing Mark W. My main point was focus on what's being phased out and enjoy it for a little while longer. The R-142's will be around for a long time. The Redbirds will be gone in a few years. I was never a transit planner wanna-be. I'm just a railfan that is into nostalgia. I like antiques, period. I have an old black metal rotary telephone from 1937 sitting on my computer table. It works as if it was brand new. As for touch tone, whenever I call a business entity, I have my pocket touch-tone dialer on the table next to the telephone, so I can make menu selections. Sometimes, I even use my PC to dial a number, then close the software and pick up the handset. While I was at an antique shop a few years ago, I couldn't resist picking it up. It looks just like the old telephone that my parents had when I was a little boy, only that one was a plastic phone from 1948. This one is a metal phone from 1937.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
All I was trying to say is if you asked the public right now, most of them would probably say "Get rid of those crappy old trains." But if the same train was pulled out of mothballs and came rumbling into the station in 2020, the same people would say "Wow, look at the Redbirds" mainly because they hadn't seen them for about 15 years
All I was trying to say is if you asked the public right now, most of them would probably say "Get rid of those crappy old trains." But if the same train was pulled out of mothballs and came rumbling into the station in 2020, the same people would say "Wow, look at the Redbirds" mainly because they hadn't seen them for about 15 years
You are absolutely correct. It is human nature not to appreciate something until it is gone. Once its been gone for some time, its return (ever so brief in most cases) is very welcome. I'll bet it would be the same if an old Jackie Gleason type bus pulled up to a bus stop even if it was 98 degrees outside. The reaction would be "Wow! Hey! I haven't ridden one of these in years"!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That ok I don't even give them a day before the first breakdown. On the Dyre Line I wonder if those trains will make it past Gun Hill Road at night.
I came down on the 2 towards home after the exam to see if there was anything peculiar at the East. The locomotives used for the delivery were idling as my passenger train passed by. Unfortunately, the shop was air tight. I couldn't see any new cars.
Just so you know, Diesel 78 with RD338 (R15) was the south end of the train, while RD331 (R15) was coupled between N1 and N2. It's not too often I get to see the SBK engines on this part of the IRT, so it was a real treat.
-Stef
Shots from the front car of a South Ferry bound
IRT 1/9 train entering the 137th Street City College
station appear on "Late Show with David Letterman"
on the "before and after commercials" bit with the
band playing in the background.
I just wanted to wish you all my best wishes on the
exam today. I hope it helps you realize your dreams
to work in the transit. Please let us know what the
exam was like. I'll be curious to know if they have
any wacky questions like the sample ones that I had
made up.
GOOD LUCK
HOPE TO SEE YOU SOON WORKING OUT ON THE ROAD
Was on South Ave. in SI. North Shore looks ready for trains. Any news on the Cranford Junction connection, progress yet; or the rebuilding from Arlington to St. George?
Sadly, the southern portion of the South Beach ROW is being destroyed as I write this. The blocks along Railroad ave. from Cedar to Sand lane are being built on, completely obliverating the ROW. Perhaps Kevin Walsh would like to photo this before it is gone. There remains a bridge near Sand Land that used to carry two tracks, but that doesn't look long to last either. If anyone wishes view the ROW, it still exist south of Sand lane where it parallels a Little League field before entering the grounds of a pyschiatric hospital, but even that portion is threatened now.
THe South Beach ROW has been built on in a number of places, especially in the areas parallell to Bay St.
The West Shore branch has been completed for quite some time. There's a problem with the crossing gates on South Ave, as they are tied in the up position. The AK Bridge and the line as far as South Ave on the North Shore line are also ready for service. The problem lies with Union County, NJ. They won't commence work on their part of the line because they don't see a 'local benefit'. Currently, all containers that are offloaded at Howland Hook are trucked to NJ over the Goethals Bridge, and up to Newark, where they are then loaded on trains (some are delivered locally, of course). According to the PA, they unload an average of 250 containers a day at Howland Hook. That means 225 trucks (assuming a large 10% are delivered locally) crossing the bridge entering Union County. That's what, 2 doublestack trains? How is taking 225 trucks off the road daily NOT a local benefit?
-Hank
ROAD TAXES X25 for each Truck, plus toll charges add up
the road taxes go to the state. the tolls momey goes to the turnpike. the trucks can get on the turnpike with using local streets(exit 13). no local benfits!!!
I have managed to capture some of the lost South Beach and North Shore SIRT on...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
I wasn't able to get a good shot along Railroad Avenue though.
Does anyone in this site know what happened to the Staten Island ferry boat named Verrazano? Did it get scrapped or sold? Is it still at the Army Base?
Is there a fan group for ferry enthusiast on the web?
The Verrazzano was a member of the 3 boat Merrell class that also included the Kolff. These ferries were built around 1950 and were the last steam boats in the fleet. The Verrazzano was the first of the class to be decommissioned in 1981. It later served to house inmates at Rikers Island. This did not prove successful. I'm not sure of its present disposition.
The Corneilus G Kolff & Joseph Merrill are still at Rikers Island. The Verrazzano never was at Rikers. It is currently in Erie Basin in horrible condition. I have pics of it inside and out. There is no "Ferryfan group" But I'd love to see one. Get back to me and mabey we could compare notes. In fact, If anybody is into ferries, Let me know. Prehaps another tour "SubTalk on the Staten Island Ferry"
I don't know about the "Verrazano" being decommissioned in 1981. I made a VERY memorable trip on her on January 11, 1982. That was two weeks before I moved to the west coast, and the entire upper bay was pretty well clogged with ice.
I actually lived in Washington, DC at the time, and rode up on Amtrak that morning -- it was 7 degrees when I left DC and went up to 11 degrees by the time I got to Penn Station.
But it was nice and warm inside the cabins on the "Verrazano"!
I don't know about the "Verrazano" being decommissioned in 1981. I made a VERY memorable trip on her on January 11, 1982.
I took the information from: The Staten Island Ferry", by Theodore W. Scull, Quadrant Press, (c) 1982.
"VERRAZZANO - Built 1951 by the Bethlehem Steel Company, Staten Island,...Decomissioned fall 1981"
I did a double take on the spelling. There was a picture of the Verrazzano with the name plate in the book. Ditto for the Merrell.
Oh well, authors/books sometimes do NOT have the information correct. I just checked the photos I took (35mm slides) and I did date stamp them and the date is 1/1/82 for my last "voyage" on the Verrazzano.
I have heard a rumor that PATCO is at capacity. I do not see how this can be true, since other rapid transit systems operate at headways double PATCO's frequency.
Please explain
Take a ride in the peak hours when the headways are closest. You will see that the limiting factors are the turnback at 16th St and the Ben Franklin Bridge. While the cars aren't crowded to the gills (so to speak), the line cannot operate any more trains without difficulty.
The 16th St problem is the limit imposed by the crossovers. Generally, on weekdays, one track is used west of the crossover west of 9th/10th, with the other holding layups. Most of these layups start going into service at about 4:30. In the meantime, trains must serve two stations and switch ends on one track. From what I've seen, this is usually a fairly closely-run operation. The only alternative is to send every AM train back to Lindenwold (or some layups back to Ferry Ave, the Woodcrest middle, etc). Any way you look at it, it's deadhead mileage.
The bridge is the bridge is the bridge. Operation usually plans only one train on the bridge in each direction at any given time. I think this is more a safety thing than a bridge limitation.
As for the bridge problem, does the DRPA plan to fix it during their reconstruction of the bridge?
There's nothing to fix. It's not a structural issue. It has more to do with keeping distance between trains. The bridge has a fairly stiff upgrade/downgrade which is a little deceiving until you walk it (and then you see how tough it is!). Trains operate slowly upgrade and then pretty much coast downgrade. I think the concern is what may happen if two trains too close together get caught on the downgrade. I've also heard that PATCO does not want any trains stopping on the bridge, probably for the same grade-related reasons (longer stopping distance downgrade, harder to start from a dead stop upgrade).
How was the exam? Any thoughts?
Gosh, it looked like a dream, but it was reality.... I found the questions intriguing. For those who didn't take the test, several sections on the exam were devoted to signals, construction flagging, emergency procedures, schedules, and diverging routes. Anything else? How about coupling procedures, brake valves, and hand brakes? There was also a section on car classes. I was able to answer them, but I have to admit I went over some questions on more than one occasion because they seemed confusing, but then it became clear to me after looking them over. The questions weren't made to be extremely difficult. I thought the questioning was quite reasonable.
I really liked this exam. Now, if they would only call me....
-Stef
Stef--- You're around transit quite a bit. How would the average person have known the answers to the questions? Were any of the exam prep books that I saw referred to here helpful? How many questions were there? Where there a lot of people taking the test?
I hope you score high and get to where you want to be.
I took the test this morning & the test is about average between hard & easy. I didn't do well on the test & i have a feeling that i might fail the test.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NY1 said 24,000 people took the test. With that amount of competition, anybody getting several wrong answers will wind up way down on the list.
My dad was telling that Ch2. said that the TA was still hiring from the old list. I will watch the 11 o clock news and see what the info is. BTW, I agree wth Stef. Some of the questions you had to look over a couple of times but it was not too bad......
3TM
There is a Class of T/O's and C/R's out. One of the New Conductors told me he came of the last Bus Operators List 2 to 4 Years ago not the current one. Also I think NY1 which I heard the Broadcast over the web said they only Need to fill 300 Slots.
From what I heard TA is going to use the list from July's promotional exam first then the open list will be used. They also are expecting around 325 vacancies a year.
Ok, we know they will post the exam key in 5 weeks....BUT......when will we actually know who is and isn't picked for the job and when training begins.....
Anyone know?
As to the test itself, I think it was a little on the easy side......
As in every civil service test the test has to be certified and that can take several months the actually being called from the list can take years. Out of 20-24,000 people taking the test maybe 15,000 pass the test, 3-4000 won't bother to come for the position and maybe another 5-6000 won't pass the drug screening after which goes the background investigation so this test may yield 3-5000 candidates for the position of Train Operator. So I wouldn't exactly quit my job on Monday morning January 10, 2000 thinking MTA will hire
me for the title of Train Operator. The news has been specualting the wrong numbers of T/O its not only 300 positions but up to 300 PER YEAR and i find that quite inflated since Train Operator isn't a high turn over position.
You know, that was my feeling when I was taking the test, that it was way too easy. I though I aced it, then I got the results ...
For a few months, I'd have sweared the TA made a mistake correcting my test.
C'mon, you had to know this test would have been easy, not withstanding the bellyaching that Eric and I have been posting. The TA rigged the '98 exam so 33 had passed then went to the press saying that no one can pass an exam and that T/Os are illiterate. At the most, our file numbers jump 100 per year through both divisions so I'd think that 300 hirings this year may be exagerated. Especially because the Tier Ones are almost all gone. Good luck and make sure you stop in at West End Avenue to meet the biggest bunch of crooks since the "Great Train Robbery".
There is also an article in today's New York Times in the Metro Section ( Main Section 2nd part ) on page 24 about the Motorman's ( their word ) Test. They claim that only 9,046 people showed up for the morning test, out of a scheduled 11,949 people.
They said the results will posted on Feb 7 on the city website-- www.ci,nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/html/examkeys.html
Heypaul,
Try 24,000 applicants competing for 300 or so jobs. That's a really tight squeeze. As is, TA employees who took this exam or the previous one get the first choice of jobs. There were 70 multiple choice questions and it was up to us to answer them.
Exam Books - I didn't use them actually. I took what I already learned about transit, from friends, and some observations of my own, as well as reading the various train books that I have here at home. I applied my knowledge of Transit to the test. Being a buff probably made the difference, and I've never worked for Transit a day in my life, other than volunteering at the NY Transit Museum! Asking about what a green over yellow indication is supposed to mean is simple, because I'm at the railfan window everyday of my life so I remember the aspects after a while. Of course, the green over yellow aspect indicates a diverging route. Not everyone will know this though.
For those not familiar with Transit, the Exam Book might be the best way to go. You'll get some insight into how Transit Works. I'll tell you though, the test wasn't that difficult. The answers were essentially in the paragraphs of most question (I feel), so there's no reason why passing the test would be such a problem. Then again, using common sense might help too....
Thank You for the support. I really do hope that I get to where I want to be (if I'm lucky).
Cheers,
Stef
Let's see. 24,000 applicants for 300 jobs. How much was the application fee? Multiply that be 24,000 applicatants. I know there is overhead in giving this test, but me thinks the City of New York made a couple of bucks on this one!
HA!!! You're right. I didn't look at it that way. That's what I call making money for nothing. The city made their money, but there's no guarantee a service will be provided, namely employment.
-Stef
Any TA employee who took this test will NOT have an edge over anyone else who scored the same.
But when will the jobs actually be available?!
now where'd I put that crystal ball!!!!!
heypaul, just for the record: if anyone went out and bought the Train Operator's book it was pretty much a waste of money as most of the test was reading comprehension and common sense. The math that was involved was a little tricky at first, but if you took the time and thought things out you'd have eventually gotten them.
Of course some questions on the test related to experiences that I and Stef (and probably others) had received from volunteering at Shoreline or other trolley museums (track switching questions and various lengths of R-type consists).
I think I did fairly well. I know Stef breeeezzzzed through it like a real pro! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Thank You, Thank You. All I'll need is a prayer to get what I want:)
-Stef
For test takers who would like to know how they did on the exam, obtain a copy of The Chief, available at most newsstands. The results will appear in appoximately six weeks. This newspaper is good for finding out about what civil service positions are being opened to fill vacancies.
-Stef
When I took the conductor's test in November 1993, I didn't get the results until September, 1994. If things have remained the same, you should have been given an answer sheet, which would allow you to write down the answer you put on the official test, and this list can be checked against the official answer list which will be published in the Chief.
I hope none of you made the same mistake I did, which was to not study because you already thought you were a transit know-it-all. My youthful arrogance may have cost me big time.
[I hope none of you made the same mistake I did, which was to not study
because you already thought you were a transit know-it-all. My youthful
arrogance may have cost me big time.]
Let me say this once and for all: the MAJORITY of questions on the test had little to do with actual TA rules and regulations or railroad procedures of any kind. The bulk of the test was the old tried-and-true reading comprehension where you have to remember certain scenerios and answer questions that pertain to various details in the scenerio. Not very difficult if you took the time to think through the question and refer back to the paragraph with the scenerio.
The math stuff didn't really matter whether you were a "transit-know-it-all" or not. Just some basic High School math equations that related to subway car lengths of varying R-types (they gave you a chart showing the ratios of "A" Division vs. "B" Division cars). And indeed calculators WERE allowed at the test sites (I brought mine but really didn't need it).
You really didn't have to have crammed for the test with one of those ARCO books. It wasn't a rocket-scientist exam or something.
Doug aka BMTman
Transit know-it-all? What are you taliking about?!? I had it packed down. I wasn't about to go and reach for the book. It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure this sh*t out. Is there anyone out there, who can use their common snese to solve a problem? I'm sorry for your misfortune, but no one and I mean NO ONE is going to rain on my parade. YOU GOT THAT?!!!!
-Stef
Hey Stef:
There are so many posts anymore on Sub-Talk nowadays that I have to pick and choose so I don't go blind. I must say everyone of yours,along with a few others are accurate in every point. So that makes all you guys "transit know-how" guys. I'm sure you did well and hope you get the position you want. Don't let any other a##h#le
tell you anything different!
Good luck!
Chuck Greene
Thank You very much. I'm not a bad guy, and I don't say that I know everything. I just can help but get ticked off sometimes. I'm frustrated. Let's be honest: This job is not guaranteed. If I don't get it, I'll move on and find something else.
There is no such thing as the person who knows it all. If anything, I have lot's more to learn about how the Transit System works. It all comes with experience. I've learned a lot of this site and the Museums I've been associated with. There's still much more to learn. Learning is supposed to be an enjoyable experience, and you're never too old to learn something new.
Take Care,
Stef
I get your point. I'm 57 years old and a Auto-Cad & Solid works mechanical designer. I've love to drive a trolley car, as my arm and neck are killing me from using the mouse all day long. We all have to find something that suites us best, and I often wonder if I would have liked transit employment better. I rode around with a bus driver while in my late teens and early 20's, so you can see I am a real nut
about transit. He always let me change the sign and advise people where to go and the best route to take since I knew the Philadelphia system pretty well.
Good luck to you once again!!!
Chuck Greene
Chris: I have couple results when i took the test in the past & you been waiting since Sept 94??? Chris you need to find out if you name is still on the list of not. Here is the number you can find out if you name is on the list "Inquiries about Exam & List Numbers is (212) 669-2328. First time i took the conductor test i fail than second time i took in july, 1999 i pass the test & got 85% on the test. Im still waiting for my Results for Station Agent from Dec, 1998 & MaBSOTA Traffic Checker from July, 1999. But i have a results for TA Cleaner since 1993 & my name is still on the list. So good luck & you will never know you pass or fail.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
five weeks from the test date the proposed answers will be posted at 18 washington st if things haven't changed. Also the Chief posts the proposed answers.
I have been monitoring the NYCTA radio system for years and have yet to figure out how the heck it works. I seem to be able to randomly hear some towers and trains over a repeater systems that constantly hetrodines (spelling) with itself. It sounds like chaos when I am off the systems itself, but if I am on the right of way or in a underground station, it sounds perfect(Only one conversation). It also appears that only certian people on the same frequency are able to hear each other. I know that all the conductors and motormen have Bendix King Portables and the luggable GEs that used to be in the cabs are no longer in use. What the heck it going on?
I have been monitoring the NYCTA radio system for years and have yet to figure out how the heck it works. I seem to be able to randomly hear some towers and trains over a repeater systems that constantly hetrodines (spelling) with itself. It sounds like chaos when I am off the systems itself, but if I am on the right of way or in a underground station, it sounds perfect(Only one conversation). It also appears that only certian people on the same frequency are able to hear each other. I know that all the conductors and motormen have Bendix King Portables and the luggable GEs that used to be in the cabs are no longer in use. What the heck it going on?
CQ CQ CQ DE KF4BOT.
As an Amateur Radio Operator, with a formal education in electronics, radio and communications, I'll try to give you the best possible explanation that I can. Although I worked for only 5 months as a two-way radio technician, I've been through electronics school and at one time held an FCC Second Class Radiotelephone License with Radar Endorsement. As a hobby, I've been into radio since 1977. I started with CB. First off, I don't know what you mean by hetrodyning. Hetrodyning is a phenomenon that only occurs on AM (amplitude modulation), not FM (frequency modulation). Hetrodyning is the whine or whistle you hear when you receive 2 AM stations slightly off frequency from each other. I forgot what they call receiving 2 equally strong signals simultaneously on one FM frequency, except to say its a garbled mess. FM has a feature called "capture", in which the weaker signal is eliminated by the stronger signal, which "captures" the frequency. The TA's communications are on FM. I believe they are on 2 meters. I left New York almost 20 years ago, so I have to do my best from memory. Also, there are some facts that I can guess on that I'm not sure about regarding TA radio communications. The main reason why you hear everything underground is the "cable" that runs along the tunnel walls. It is the antenna that allows a T/O under the East River to communicate with Control Center, and everyone else. When you're off TA property, you have no way of picking up those in the tunnels all over the system. All you're getting is the repeater that is closest to you. On the cable, you're getting whatever repeaters throughout the city are on that frequency. As for only certain people on frequency being able to hear each other, there are 2 ways to accomplish this. One is the use of PL tones to activate the repeater's transmitter. PL tones allow 2 distant repeaters to use the same frequency with minimal interference to each other. If a repeater in the Bronx uses a PL code of 131.8 and one in Queens on the same frequency uses a PL code of 107.2, a train in the Bronx won't key up the Queens repeater. The other is by use of tone-controlled squelch. TCS will only enable someone with the code you have programmed into your radio to open your squelch. That way, many people can use the same frequency and not interfere with each other. They use either or both in commercial business communication (business band) and GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service). It is also used in the FRS (Family Radio Service). Now, let me explain how repeaters work. Lets get off the TA for a moment and get onto ham Radio. You can be walking down the street with your little 5-watt handheld radio. Your range is extremely limited on your puny 5 watts with your 6" rubber duck antenna. If you're using a repeater, you transmit your puny signal on one frequency (the repeater's input frequency). The repeater receives this signal and retransmits it on its output frequency at much higher power (up to the legal 2000 watts allowed for amateur radio by the FCC) through a highly efficient antenna on a high tower on its output frequency. Now, everybody within the repeater's range can hear you and converse with you. With Florida's flat terrain, using a high-power repeater with its antenna on a 300' tower, people 100 miles or more apart can chit-chat on the radio. Transmitting on one frequency and receiving on another is called duplex, as opposed to transmitting and receiving on the same frequency, which is called simplex. If you have your scanner tuned into the repeater's input frequency, you will not be receiving much. If you have your scanner tuned into the repeater's output frequency, you will hear alot more, but only what's on that repeater on that frequency. If you're in Brooklyn, on the street, or in your apartment, listening to the A-Division frequency, my guess is that you won't hear what's going on in the Bronx, unless you're on TA property on that cable. You will probably hear Command, and the local traffic. As for what's going on up on Gunhill Road, I doubt it. I'm sure that the TA uses a network of repeaters for different parts of the system. It's probably more than one for A-Division and one for B-Division. Two repeaters would be too much on one "party line". Like in my example, there are probably different repeaters operating on the same division in different locations. Like I said in the beginning of my post, I'm offering you my knowledge of radio, but my knowledge of TA radio operation is schetchy at best. I never owned a scanner while I lived in NY. So, if any of my theories regarding TA radio communications are off, oh well! If I should happen to take a trip back to my old stomping grounds, I will be more than prepared. My Icom IC 2GAT 2-meter handheld is capable of receiving and transmitting on 138-174 MHz, simplex or duplex, and I have all the PL codes.
NYC TRANSIT
Why hot damn! That was informative. Thank you Mr. BMT Lines.
I was in NY recently using my scanner. I actually couldn't hear anything on the A-Division while I was riding it, but I did hear three transmissions at odd times. Twice in my apartment in Park Slope by Grand Army Plaza I heard transmissions from Command. Once for all F trains between Kings Highway and I don't know where to stop and stay at all stations, and once for one A train being told he is lined up for Broad Channel. Also, while on Amtrak going home, I heard a conversation between Parkchester Yard/tower(??) and a #6 train(but I was alot closer to that conversation than the first two). From what I just read, it doesn't sound like that should have been able to happen(hearing the calls from Park Slope)
I was in NY recently using my scanner. I actually couldn't hear anything on the A-Division while I was riding it, but I did hear three transmissions at odd times. Twice in my apartment in Park Slope by Grand Army Plaza I heard transmissions from Command. Once for all F trains between Kings Highway and I don't know where to stop and stay at all stations, and once for one A train being told he is lined up for Broad Channel. Also, while on Amtrak going home, I heard a conversation between Parkchester Yard/tower(??) and a #6 train(but I was alot closer to that conversation than the first two). From what I just read, it doesn't sound like that should have been able to happen(hearing the calls from Park Slope)
You will probably hear Command all over the city. As the crow flies, how far do you think the A on Liberty Ave. is from you? It seems alot longer by subway. I'll bet you don't hear the Queens IND, the J,k the 7, or anything in upper Manhattan or the Bronx. Like I said in my previous post, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I know about radio theory, but my actual knowledge of the TA communications system and what makes it tick is limited, mostly because I didn't own a scanner back in the seventies. I left NYC in 1980. Now, I sometimes listen to Amtrak and the Florida East Coast Railway on my ham radio. I just thought that I could shed some light on things regarding radio transmissions. John Blair on SubTalk is another ham operator, living in the NY Metro area. Maybe he can shed some more light on things regarding radio communications and the TA. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe there are only 2 repeaters, for A-Div. and B-Div., but I would tend to think there are more.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
John J. Blair lives in Syracuse. That's the New York area but certainly not Metro!
John J. Blair lives in Syracuse. That's the New York area but certainly not Metro!
He's more metro than I am. Besides, Jeff H already explained how the TA's wierd communication system works. I was wrong. It doesn't use repeaters.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
While on the subject of subway radio frequencys. I thought I would throw this out and maybe someone could shed some light on this. Will switch cities a bit, but does anyone out there know the frequency for the Frankford EL here in the Philly area? I checked with a few people including my main SEPTA source Bobw and we couldn't come up with anything. They used to use 502.6125 but they changed it. Any help would be appreciated.
If you are in the subway, you are only going to hear
what is being sent over the antenna cable. Technically,
it is not a repeatered system...it is a remote base. Operation
is duplex, but when a mobile (crew radio) transmits, it is
carried back via landline where command (aka control) center
and adjacent towers can hear it. The signal isn't repeated and
you have to go to "train-to-train" mode in order to talk to
another mobile, in which case you transmit directly on the downlink
frequency and you are very limited in range, at least in tunnel.
This is how it worked a few years ago...I don't think it changed
when they went from the lugable train radios to the individual
crewmember HTs.
It's been my experience that using a scanner from home, you can
pick up both sides of conversations on anything elevated.
Since the entire, e.g. B2 division operates on a particular
pair, if two units are stepping on each other FM capture effect
takes over and you get what you get. You'll hear the two sides
on the two different frequencies, unlike say fire and police where
it is repeatered and you hear both on one frequency. You'll never
hear anything from the subway outside unless you happen to be
directly over a tunnel.
If you are in the subway, you are only going to hear
what is being sent over the antenna cable. Technically,
it is not a repeatered system...it is a remote base. Operation
is duplex, but when a mobile (crew radio) transmits, it is
carried back via landline where command (aka control) center
and adjacent towers can hear it. The signal isn't repeated and
you have to go to "train-to-train" mode in order to talk to
another mobile, in which case you transmit directly on the downlink
frequency and you are very limited in range, at least in tunnel.
This is how it worked a few years ago...I don't think it changed
when they went from the lugable train radios to the individual
crewmember HTs.
It's been my experience that using a scanner from home, you can
pick up both sides of conversations on anything elevated.
Since the entire, e.g. B2 division operates on a particular
pair, if two units are stepping on each other FM capture effect
takes over and you get what you get. You'll hear the two sides
on the two different frequencies, unlike say fire and police where
it is repeatered and you hear both on one frequency. You'll never
hear anything from the subway outside unless you happen to be
directly over a tunnel.
Thanks for clearing that up. I guess its my fault for overestimating the TA, thinking they would do something that made sense. All other entities, business, police, fire, etc., and even hams use repeaters. The TA doesn't. In other words, the only reliable communication is between each train and Command, or the tower. Train-to-Train communication is almost useless. What else is terrible about that system is if the phone lines between Command and the rest of the system goes down, so does the whole communications system. This system that the TA is using is archaic. If they're going to use telephone lines, why not ditch the radio altogether and go to a system of cell phones or something like it? The system that they're using dates back to the 1960's, doesn't it?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I BELIEVE that the TA started using two-way radio communication immediately after the IND Roosevelt Ave smash-up, One of the main causes of that accident they found was the lack of communication between the GG train that went down, and the TA Command center.
I BELIEVE that the TA started using two-way radio communication immediately after the IND Roosevelt Ave smash-up, One of the main causes of that accident they found was the lack of communication between the GG train that went down, and the TA Command center.
That accident happened in 1970.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The HT's aint bad. I live a 1/4 mile from Jamiaca yard. I can speak to them easily.
Recently a metro-north train uncoupled while in service doing rush hour, the uncoupled cars sat on the tracks for a half hour until another train pushed it to a station.My question is has this ever happened to a subway train while in service?
It happened to a Purple Line train here in Chicago that a friend of mine happened to be riding in. He described that the front set of cars began to pull away from the station while the car he was on remained still. Then there was a bright falsh of blue light as the cars became upcoupled. The front half of the train finally came to a stop a few dozen yards down the tracks. My friend decided that he was probably better off taking the bus.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
gee now you wonder why transit operators ask for people not to ride between cars particular since this may occur while the train is moving. It hasn't happened recently here in NYC but if a should uncouple while train is moving the consist should go into emergency.
Coupler failure or link bars could occur someone with CAr Equipment knowledge would be able to explain in more detail.
01/08/2000
An RCI friend of mine called them "pull aparts", i don't know if that's their official description. Didn't the pre GOH R-44's have that problem in the late 70's?
Bill Newkirk
Time to define terms:
If cars uncouple - that's called an UNDESIRED UNCOUPLING.
If cars seperate at a link bar or at a draw bar, that's called a PULL-APART.
Obviously, the latter is always due to a mechanical failure. The former can be due to mechanical failure of the coupler, electrical failure of the uncoupling controls (R-44/R-46), or human error.
Fortunately, incidents of either type are very rare on the NYC Transit System.
Fortunately, incidents of either type are very rare on the NYC Transit System
I myself have never witnessed it or even heard of it happening until recently on SubTalk. Also, I think I've witnessed overshoots maybe twice in my life, and nothing overly serious - one or 2 sets of doors overshootinig the platform and noone disembarking.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The incident I witnessed wasn't a big deal. I was in the fifth car, and as we winded down around the curve to the Canal St. station, I heard a loud bump, then the emergency brakes activated. I thought we hit something, but the conductor noticed that the coupler between the back 4 cars and the front 6 had detached. They only seperated about 3-4 feet before the brakes stopped everything. It took us almost an hour, waiting for someone to couple the trains back together.
The incident I witnessed wasn't a big deal. I was in the fifth car, and as we winded down around the curve to the Canal St. station, I heard a loud bump, then the emergency brakes activated. I thought we hit something, but the conductor noticed that the coupler between the back 4 cars and the front 6 had detached. They only seperated about 3-4 feet before the brakes stopped everything. It took us almost an hour, waiting for someone to couple the trains back together.
You could help yourself at Canal St. If it was me, I would have transferred to something else and found my way to wherever I was going. I don't know
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
how many times I did this when there was a major delay, even if it meant 2 or 3 extra transfers. For a railfan, it makes the trip interesting, anyway :-)
Of course a lot depends on whether the section of the train you are on ia in a station or a tunnel. In a station the conductor can open the doors and let you out (after dealing with the emergency brake). In the tunnel the usual safety rules apply, and evacuation can take a while, especially where in theis scenario there is no danger in staying on the train (other than the following train keying by and rear-ending you, or some claustrophobic going bananas.
Any coupler which opens in service is a major suspect, and there is no way I can see the train recoupled and back in service without a trip through the shop. A failed link bar is even more definitive, it can only be reattached in the shop.
Of course a lot depends on whether the section of the train you are on ia in a station or a tunnel. In a station the conductor can open the doors and let you out (after dealing with the emergency brake). In the tunnel the usual safety rules apply, and evacuation can take a while, especially where in theis scenario there is no danger in staying on the train (other than the following train keying by and rear-ending you, or some claustrophobic going bananas.
Any coupler which opens in service is a major suspect, and there is no way I can see the train recoupled and back in service without a trip through the shop. A failed link bar is even more definitive, it can only be reattached in the shop.
This uncoupling phenomenon must be extremely rare. I spent the first 26 years of my life in NYC, and never witnessed it happening, and never heard of an incident of it happening in passenger service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This uncoupling phenomenon must be extremely rare. I spent the first 26 years of my life in NYC, and never witnessed it happening, and never heard of an incident of it happening in passenger service.
Then again, I don't think the TA would allow mishaps like this to become public knowledge either. If I didn't hear it through the grapevine in railfan circles, I doubt I'd hear about it anywhere else.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
A few years ago I was on the second car of a two-car Boston Green Line train. It uncoupled at about 25mph, and the car on which I was riding went into emergency and stopped VERY FAST (thanks to the track brakes). The first thing the operator did was get on the PA and ask if anyone needed medical assistance... as a lot of people fell to the floor.
rare? yes but. maybe ten years ago coming back from SF on BART our train separated just ahead of where I was riding. This occurred as we were leaving 12th for nineteenth--thus at very low speed. A tech fudged things back together after several tries and we proceeded. No injuries.
Most couplers require the coupling to be compressed before it will disengage, thus if the mechanism becomes unintentionally activated, the uncoupling will take place as the train starts to accellerate, sunce alternating push-pull forces are common at that time.
.
.
.
The original couplers on the SLRV were very unreliable and also had some interesting features. If a train broke apart, the emergency brakes would take hold, but because of the MU wiring, the track brake on the second car would not energize. Thus, the second car would brake at a slightly lower rate than the first, and the train would recouple itself.
What you say is true on the OB couplers on the R-44 or R-46. Those cars must be buffed (compressed) before they can be uncoupled (unless the hook is worn)However, on the H2C coupler which is the predominant coupler, no such buffing is required. Often, it is the opposite, a stretch, that is needed to break the coupler.
You mean to make a cut on an R-46, after you turn the coupler
switch, you have to go forward first to buff the coupler before
you can back off?
What are the figures on undesired uncouplings on H2Cs vs the OBs?
I asked an Orange Line "guard" in Boston once why they work from the cab of the 5th car instead of the fourth(Orange Line cars are linked in 2-car sets and there are not cabs at the "back" of each car). I was told it was in case there was a pull-apart.
Yes. A B train of R40 slants had it's rear 4 cars uncouple and seperate as it was going around the curve into Canal St. back in 1988 (when the B was running on Broadway). The emergency brakes activated immediatly. I was on that train. I cannot remember the exact date, though.
Well, about twenty seven years ago, R32's 3700 and 3701 separated due to a broken drawbar between cars (if that is the correct terminology for what holds the married pairs together...) while travelling between Victorville and San Bernardino, California.
Say what?
Yes, in California! The cars were being handled on the rear end of a freight train en route to Garrett Airesearch in Torrance, California for fitting wit a flywheel energy storage system. Coming down the steep grades of Cajon Pass the train had some slack action when braking and it tore the 'drawbar' apart. The cars sat at AT&SF's San Bernardino yard for about a week awaiting a new part from NYCTA.
(Before anyone asks -- YES!, there are photos posted of the cars with palm trees in the background, at www.nycsubway.org)
Having just driven through the Cahon Pass while on vacation last week, I can safely say it would have been a major shock to be coming down I-15 or the old road (U.S. 66), look over to the side and see a Brightliner sitting on one of the tracks. Even better if it came loose around the Mormon rocks, which are pretty weird looking to begin with (they turn up represneting some alien planets on some of the original Star Trek episodes). They'd look even stranger with an R-32 in front of them.
Yes, you're very right!
Imagine how *I* felt when I discovered them. I was being sort of stupid -- a friend and I were hopping freight trains, and we came around the bend at the east end of the San Bernardino freight yard while sitting in a boxcar and it was dark out. My friend said "Look at those strange baggage cars with four doors on each side!" The I noticed the TA logo and just about crapped my pants!! I'm thinking "What the heck are THOSE doing WAAAAAAY out here?"
We rode the freight all the way to Barstow, then came back on another. And then when we arrived back in San Bernardino the next morning, photographed the cars in the yard.
Haven't hopped a freight train since -- wouldn't want to be shocked by anything else. Besides I got older and wiser and realized the dangers of doing so.
Yes. Train hopping is dangerous. Just read the diaries of those on
http://www.deadtrainbums.com/causes/Classic.html
What's the url?
As I mentioned, the photos are at New York Subway Resources.
I remember reading about one a few years back. A northbound A train of R-44 in Brooklyn had separated and, but the first 2 cars continued on to the next stop while the remaining 6 car went BIE. I guess that T/O didn't realize what happended until he reached the next stop, the doors didn't opened and he probably looked out of his window and noticed most of his train was missing.
Shouldn't both the T/O and C/R lose indication in the case of a train uncoupling???
Wayne
Wouldn't the T/O have realized he was probably going noticeably faster after they separated?? :)
With MU cars the amount in the consist doesn't ussually make a big difference in speed. If anything more cars go faster than less.
And yes the motorman and conductor are supposed to loose their respective indications.
I went to acela's web page the other day, http://www.acela.com, but found no helpful updates as to when these trains may finally be rolling. I know that they are delayed until Spring, but I was wondering if anyone had something more specific. -Nick
"Acela will be entering service by the end of 1999"
Amtrak hasn't said much, if anything about it lately. Rumor has it the electrification project's going too slow, that they've set at least one on fire, and that the truck problems have yet to be solved.
01/09/2000
The only thing new about ACELA is some new television commercials that are as dumb as a doorknob! Just like the subway and commuter train "ads" they do not give any clue of high speed rail service that will make us abandon our cars and air shuttles. I still say that stupid looking ACELA logo looks more like a logo for a running shoe!
ABILL NEWKIRKB!
The general reaction I've seen for the entire advertising campaign has been rather hostile from railfans, but relatively good from non-railfans. Basically everyone I know knows what Acela is, even if they don't care particularly about passenger rail. I even know someone collecting the Acela ad postcards that have been getting wide distribution in NYC (the postcards have the same ads that show up on the sides of buses and such-- clock without hands, "happily many a dull moment" etc.). This is all surprising to me, since I think if I didn't already know what Acela was, I wouldn't be able to figure it out from the ads. But somehow or the other they work. When Amtrak can get the trains to work seems to still be an open question...
The Boston Globe reported the other day that electric (ACELA Regional) service would begin "around the end of January" but there was still no date for ACELA Express service given by AMTRAK.
Rapidtransit.net gets its 15 minutes of fame this Sunday.
It's featured in the "City" section of The Times, which is only distributed in the five boroughs, so I won't get to see it until my wife brings me back a copy from the City Sunday afternoon.
I didn't want to mention this on SubTalk until I was sure it was in the paper, since it was originally supposed to run the day after Christmas. Finally, in the next millennium, it's there!
Thanks to Bob Diamond for letting me know!
It's also on the Times website.
I saw it there, and it was good to see. Much better to see an article on your website than the usual "someone dared to open a business, neighbors outraged" crap they usually run. We'll have to see if your hits to up.
>>>We'll have to see if
your hits to up. <<<
A Times appearance usually spikes your hits way up, and the people who like your site stick with you. Many people who first saw Forgotten NY in the Times in March have followed the site ever since.
Thanks, Larry,
Of course the hits are way up. An early analysis shows a lot of people are looking at the "Back to the Future" article, as well as visits to other areas and Bob Diamond's Grade Crossing materials.
I hope people will become more aware of the history and politics of the system. I'd also like to see the Avenue H stationhouse get some kind of recognition.
(I'd like to see the Avenue H stationhouse get some kind of recognition).
Where do you live, Paul. From the posts I had assumed it was Long Island, but now I'm not sure. If you are close by, you could always submit some documents to the Landmarks Preservation Commission.
As you know, I think the scales have gone too far in preserving the past vs. building the future, though I wouldn't like a 180 degree turn back to the other stupidity elsewhere. For example, that landmarked wreck at Atlantic and Flabush -- what will they ever be able to use THAT for.
But if the station is still more or less intact, and it is not functionally obsolete, a landmark designation may be appropriate, and you're the man to document it.
I do live on Long Island, Larry, but I lived in Brooklyn for 26 years, and I'm a pretty typical example of "you can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but..." I live and work on L.I. but my interest still lies in the city in general and Brooklyn in particular.
Landmarking is a funny thing. If other things are "over-landmarked," there is almost zero interest in rapid transit structures.
The title of my Avenue H piece, "The Little Station in the Woods" may invoke the frontier books of Laura Ingalls Wilder (who wrote a book called "Little House in the Big Woods" as well as her better known "Little House on the Prairie") but the Avenue H stationhouse is closer to the children's book, "The Little House" by Virginia Lee Burton.
Did you ever read that? It's the story of a little house that is built in the countryside and wonders what life would be like in the big city. The little house doesn't go to the big city but the big city comes to it, first through what we would today call suburban sprawl and then urbanization.
That's what actually happened to the Avenue H stationhouse. It's a living connection between what was and what is, which, to me, is the ideal purpose of a landmark.
Hey, Paul (Matus that is!)
Great piece in the New York Times!
Sorry it took me so long to find it. I forgot about the 'City' section. In my mind I'm thinking 'The Metro' section. So I saw it this morning. Nice how they reproduced the Bluebird page from your website.
You should be getting tons of 'hits' at your site in the next few days. I'm also sure you'll get people who will return on a regular basis if they add your site to their computer's "favorites" or "hot" sites.
Again, good coverage for your site and a nice plug overall for our favorite yet neglected subject.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks, Doug!
Yeah, the article being in the "City" section means I didn't get it on Long Island.
Bob Diamond was kind enough to scan the article for me, then I got a hard copy when my wife brought it back from the City.
Not only are Paul's hits way up. He has a link to my page and my hits are also above average since Sunday.... I didn't realize why until I read this thread.
Thanks Paul!!!!
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
I don't really monitor hits on a intra-week basis, but it's easy enough to count up referrals. Last week we got 2 click-thru's from rapidtransit.net, so far this week: 68.
-Dave
I don't really monitor hits on a intra-week basis, but it's easy enough to count up referrals. Last week we got 2 click-thru's from rapidtransit.net, so far this week: 68.
-Dave
I have a shortcut that I click on that takes me directly to SubTalk, not the main page. Do I get counted in your statistics?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You get counted in the overall hit counts for the week (which I look at on a weekly basis). I don't really pay much attention to how many SubTalk messages are read each week, however. You don't really get counted in the referrals log because you're not clicking on a link on someone's site (some browsers will send as the referring site "Bookmarks" for coming in that way, some will send as the referring site whatever page you were on prior to using your bookmark -- leading to sites in my referrals log that don't actually have a link to me. I try to weed that out by only reporting referring sites with 2 or more referrals a week).
You get counted in the overall hit counts for the week (which I look at on a weekly basis). I don't really pay much attention to how many SubTalk messages are read each week, however. You don't really get counted in the referrals log because you're not clicking on a link on someone's site (some browsers will send as the referring site "Bookmarks" for coming in that way, some will send as the referring site whatever page you were on prior to using your bookmark -- leading to sites in my referrals log that don't actually have a link to me. I try to weed that out by only reporting referring sites with 2 or more referrals a week).
My browser opens with my customized "Web Crawler" page (which BTW is Excite). I use Microsoft Internet Explorer 5 for my browser and click the SubTalk link that I put on the browser. If I want to go to the main site, I'll just click on the tokens on top that spell out "subway".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I load everything from the favoites on the Start Menu, if I opened my browser directly, it would open a blank page.
I load everything from the favoites on the Start Menu, if I opened my browser directly, it would open a blank page.
I'm a pack rat. I must have hundreds or even thousand of bookmarks in my favorites, many of them obsolete. One of these days, I'm going to have to clean my virtual house. BTW, I eliminated favorites from my start menu for that very reason.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You're quite welcome, Jim--I get regular hits from bmt-lines.com (and, of course, from nycsubway.org--thanks, Dave). It's a great site. It really gives you some of the flavor of the BMT.
I just got my Webtrends report for this weekend. The most popular thing on the site was the "Back to the Future" article. A close second was the links page. I guess links pages are much more popular than I ever imagined.
[Of course the hits are way up. An early analysis shows a lot of people are looking at the "Back to the Future" article, as well as visits to other areas and Bob Diamond's Grade Crossing materials.
I hope people will become more aware of the history and politics of the system. I'd also like to see the Avenue H stationhouse get some kind of recognition.]
I'm glad to hear that--I can't think of a better article for people to read, but then I've pretty obviously caught the privatization bug.
Besides, maybe we can stop explaining who Mayor Hylan was.
Anyway, congratulations!
Congratulations in your NY Times appearance!
The article also works as a plug for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
which is mentioned in a favorable light at the end of the article!
Thanks Kevin,
In looking over my links, the reporter remarked how much he liked your site.
And for good reason...
Congrats, Paul! Nice to see you getting positive press.
--Mark
I WAS ON 86TH STREET AND BAY 22ND ON THE WEST END LINE AND I SAW A R-40 SLANT B. ARE THE SLANT'S GOING BACK TO THE B. i ALSO SAW A SET OF R-68'S THAT STILL HAD N END CAR MARKERS BETWEEN THE CARS. ONE OF THE CARS WAS 5178
2 R40s run on the B Line on the weekends. I have no idea why. They have enough R68As. But then again, sometimes I see R68As on the N Line on weekends too. I'm not sure why they even move equipment around on the weekends. Less equipment is used on the weekends then weekdays so I see no use for any of this. Exception: when the R68s at Concourse were being linked. But their done with that already.
They don't shuffle equipment around. Some lines, like then B, get several put ins from CIYD Mon. thru Fri. On weekends, CIYD is very short staffed and quiet, with b/o trains going in and replacements coming back to Stillwell station. With Q trains laid up in Stillwell Yard and not used on weekends, these cars are borrowed by the other lines, being made shure they are replaced by Sunday nite.
Oh, Slant R40s on the "B" are nothing new on the weekends. Matter of fact, subway-buff and I almost had one back on December 11th. We saw it coming into Stillwell and passed up the R68 (regular ANF-Westinghouse/Alsthom) about to depart in favor of the R40. The consist was made up of (northbound first) 4191-4190, 4249-4248, 4162-4163, 4299-4298, and 4215-4214. The T/O boarded and was preparing to leave when suddenly he could get no brake pressure. He thought at first there had been an emergency cord pulled. We were suddenly very aware of the loud hiss of air coming from outside #4191's storm door. I popped out to take a peek and sure enough it was coming from the coupler area. The T/O followed and heard the same. That was enough for him. Brake line had ruptured. We all got off and he secured the train and he notified the tower. An RCI was summoned and the train was taken out of service. We wound up on an R68A.
Wayne
Ooooohhhhhhhh noooooooooo.
Bummer.
I'll say! The REAL bummer came when we got dusted by an "R" train between Prospect Avenue and 9th Street. We were on the express track, under a full field of green, and going no faster than 35MPH, if that.
The "R" train went right by us. It beat us to Pacific Street.
Some express run!
Wayne
check out the Boston "T" re-designed website,at http://www.mbta.com If you want, fill out the survey, and you get a chance to win some T merchandise. -Nick
Right after i took the test for T/O exam & i went to Grand Concourse Yard to take some pictures. I took a pictures of two R62 wrecked cars back of the yard. The pictures is not good but you can see two front R62 cars & go to R62/62A page. I added some of subway pictures & check out my NYCTransTrans Subway Page. I will be update both of bus & subway every weeks. My next assignment is monday to take pictures of buses at Brooklyn. So have a good night & enjoy it
Peace Out
David Justiniano
You got those pics out quick..........
3TM
3TM: My camera is Olympus Digital Camera D-450 Zoom 35-105mm with 2x digital telephoto len. It a good Camera & can fix it into computer too with called Flash Path FloppyDisk Adapter.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Nice pics, David. Hopefully the R142's will come out of the 180th street shop for viewing, so u can get some "new technology" on your page as well. Keep up the great work! :) -Nick
I'm in Long Beach (CA, not LI!) for a convention (can you imagine 3000 meteorologists - non-broadcasters, though - in one place?!?).
Since the conference begins tomorrow, I took a few hours today to ride the Blue Line from Long Beach to LA, then the Red Line to Hollywood/Vine.
I know others have posted the details here, and there is a Line-by-Line coming... but a few observations:
* The Blue Line's street running then private reservation then back to street running then subway is really neat. On the street, gongs are sounded at cross-streets; in private reservation it's the standard RR crossing with the horn (gated intersections).
* The Red Line's cars "sound" like the WMATA Metro, complete with AC-whine and same-pitched horn.
* It's $1.35 for a ride ($1.60 with a transfer); all you can ride for two hours using proof-of-payment.
Long Beach, California for a meteorlogical convention??? Wouldn't that be sort of like going to Utah for a sailboat show? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Don't worry, David, we bring "good" (e.g. "interesting") weather wherever we go :-)
I forgot to mention that the Blue Line (Long Beach - LA, CA) has a good ATC system, but it's used only on the private reservation, and not in street running.
And that's Transit & Weather Together, California style, dude.
And the great thing about the LA subway? You can railfan the red line in like 20 minutes ;)
but where is the railfan window ?????? !!!!!!!! ........
Will you please stop with the railfan windows?
It's RAIL!! It's electric!!
Not bus. Not diesel. Not freeway. Not exhaust emitting.
All of us should welcome new systems and new equipment. They preserve enviro-friendly transportation.
I remember Hi-V's, Standards, R-1's, BU's on Myrtle, and steam on the Pennsylvania. Yes, I miss them all. But I don't keep crying about the loss. Life doesn't always go the way we want.
go to philadelphia!!! they got it right there !!! new subway cars RAILFAN WINDOWS !! right on !!!
you sound like someone who dosent enjoy life !!!!
I certainly enjoy life. And I don't constantly carp about missing something that railfans and little kids like. The average rider doesn't care - all they want is clean, safe, transit that gets them where they need to go in the shortest amount of time.
This board is designed for reasonable dialog, not constant carping about one subject that is starting to get tedious.
"you sound like someone who dosent enjoy life !!!! "
Gee, I could say the same thing about you, but I refrain from that.
Due to a glass shortage, they were all sent to Philadelphia.
--Mark
Actually, the horns on the WMATA Metrorail cars and the LACMTA Red Line cars are not really the same, though they DO sound very much alike.
The WMATA cars have a smaller, truck-type air horn made by a manufacturer whose name slips my mind right now (someone at WMATA told me awhile back....)
LACMTA uses a Nathan Airchime, P-series horn with horn bells #1 and #2 on the manifold. If they added the P-#4 bell, you'd have the same exact sound as Southern Pacific diesel locomotives did for most of SP's history.
The Blue Line cars at LACMTA did have a single-bell Nathan P-series horn (#3 bell) but those were disconnected in favor of the rooftop electronic speaker horns that have a sound chip with Amtrak Nathan P-series five-chime horn sound on it. (San Jose, and Portland also have these.)
Baltimore (and Miami) use a Leslie SL-3 horn, which is almost exactly alike the diesels of Conrail and many other freight railroads. However, on Baltimore's cars, they also seem to have an electric "car horn" so they don't give people heart attacks if theysound the horn IN the subway.
the horn on the red line los angeles metro subway car " THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE"
horn(s) sounded DEEPER than atlanta!
like a french horn not trumpet or flugele-horn i never heard a washington d.c. horn ill have to take your word for
it !!!!!!!!!!!
The horns on Los Angeles Red Line cars are Nathan Airchime P-type horns with the #1 and #2 bells (notes). They are basically railroad locomotive horns. If you added the #4 note, they would sound exactly like the horns that were on Southern Pacific's diesel locomotives.
Following is a list of the original station platform lengths along the IND Fulton Street line, including the ill-fated Court Street terminus which is now the home of the Transit Museum.
Court Street [terminus] : start 781+45, end 787+45
Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street (A and E chains share trackage) : start 761+75, end 768+45
Lafayette Street : start 729+85, end 736+45
Clinton-Washington Avenue (I) : A1 platform start 704+15, end 710+75; A2 platform start 704+45, end 711+05
Franklin Avenue : A1 platform start 678+00, end 684+65; A2 platform start 678+45, end 685+05
Nostrand Avenue : start 659+65, end 666+25
Kingston-Throop Avenue : A1 platform start 634+60, end 641+20; A2 platform start 632+20, end 638+80
Utica Avenue : start 605+80, end 612+40
Ralph Avenue : start 578+35, end 584+95
Rockaway Avenue : A1 platform start 552+95, end 560+03; A2 platform start 553+22, end 560+03
Broadway-East New York : A1/A3 platform start 534+95, end 541+40; A2/A4 platform start 534+95, end 541+45
Liberty Avenue : start 502+35, end 508+45
Van Siclen Avenue : start 479+07, end 485+16
Shepherd Avenue : start 452+13, end 458+28
Euclid Avenue : start 427+55, end 433+70 (around 420+00, A code becomes K code)
Grant Avenue : start 406+50, end 413+10
Next: The Brooklyn-Queens crosstown from Court Square to Fulton Street.
My apologies: the third station on the list should read Lafayette Avenue.
While surfing the net I came upon a Cleveland Transit Cop's homepage. On it there is a picture of a new police car next to a 1954 rapid transit car. I didn't even know Cleveland even had a R.T. system. If you want to check the picture the url is http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Woods/3683 When you get there scroll down a bit.
Yeah Jeff, I rode it in October on a 3 hour layover, well I rode the Heavy Rail at least, clean fast, and at some stations just outside the Airport, there is good action for Railroading right next door, on the old NYC/Conrail Main Line. They also have 2 light rail lines, amd for a couple stations share the tracks.
The Cleveland RTA routes are fun to ride--the heavy rail has perhaps the best airport access anywhere. You walk to the end of the platform at the airport and up the escalator to the ticket counters. Going into downtown, there's a beautiful view of the center of the city before the line ducks underground.
Like Boston's Blue Line, the Cleveland Red Line uses overhead, though for its entire length, and as #1 Brighton Exp Bob mentions, it shares some track from the downtown terminal to east of downtown; the two light rail branches (old Shaker Heights) also use pantographs. There's a yard and shops east of downtown where light rail and rapid transit cars are mixed together--it looks strange to see them lined up on storage tracks.
From the downtown terminal, there's a fairly new extension to the Lakefront, fun to ride. As you leave the central station, there's a sign on the ramp down to street level to go to the Lake that says that 'Rapid transit cars must not proceed beyond this point'--I may have the wording a bit wrong. The reason is that the curves at street level would be too sharp, but especially that the rapid transit cars are high-level loaders while the LRVs (Bredas, I think) load at street level.
The system is worth an overnight stop in Cleveland to ride; Cleveland itself is worth a visit, too.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
any railfan windows in cleveland ?? on thier rail cars ??
NO, because it is a one person operation and the doors open on both sides. Face it, rail fan windows will soon be a thing of the past, because the rail systems are going to one man operations and the operator will have to go across the car to do their job. If you want rail fan windows, use the back car. Also on the Cleveland Airport line as I mentioned the first couple of stops out of the Airport have some good views of the former NYC/Conrail Main line with heavy rail traffice. You really do not need to overnight in Cleveland. You coulod ride the system in 3 hours. Just use Continental Airlines and hope your Travel Agent can get you a long connection Time. That is what I did in Oct. Usually anything under 4 hours in a legal connections, but sometimes you can get one later, if there are no other connecting flights before hand.
i was in chicago once!!! the ONE PERSON OPERATION was too slow.......
AND ITS DANGEROUS!!! suppose the operator cant see down the BLIND PORTONS OF THE TRAIN ???
you take your life in your hands riding the back of the train .... it is not just the railfan window.....
it is also putting the MOTORPERSONs under extreme STRESS as you add on more stress and pain...
have mercy on the operator who "" TAKES OFF " with someone jammed or caught in a door in the back
of the train that the MOTORPERSON did not see !!! AND you would not want that person to be you!!!
there should be CONDUCTORS in the middle of all rail transit systems !!!!
IT IS MUCH SAFER FOR US THE TRANSIT RIDERS !!!!!!
"i was in chicago once!!! the ONE PERSON OPERATION was too slow......"
I agree with that, to a point. Some operators can move quickly from manning the door switch at the drop window to the operator's controls, and vice versa. Others take several seconds to do it. Generally, they were all slow at the beginning, and they've been getting faster, but there are still some operators that are slow on the start-off (and I'm not saying it's necessarily their fault). OPTO will never be as fast as two-person: there will always be a few seconds lost. But I have to admit that CTA has been progressing toward keeping that delay to a minimum.
"AND ITS DANGEROUS!!! suppose the operator cant see down the BLIND PORTONS OF THE TRAIN???"
This I have to disagree with. While pillars and similar obstacles are located away from the edges of L and subway platforms so that they don't obscure the view of the doors, there are several curved stations on the system. To eliminate these blind spots, CTA has installed closed-circuit television cameras in such stations, with the monitors pointing toward where the operator's drop window should be. Assuming the operator stops on or near the mark, he or she should be able to see on the monitors any part of the train that they cannot see directly by looking out the window.
stop posting twice
Leave off the word "twice" !!!
(Cleveland itself is worth a visit)
Never heard THAT before.
Actually, Larry, you might be interested to walk around the one time railroad station which was rehabilitated some years back by Forest City. The station development has quite a history having been built by real estate tycoons who also built the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit (and ultimately owned C&O, NKP, PM, W&LE) to serve their suburban subdivision. The current use of the ex station is a positive draw for downtown Cleveland.
Cleveland is a great place to go for transit. And with a $4.00 day pass, you can ride rails and buses all you want. Plenty of photo-ops too.
Try it; you'll like it.
Joe C
Just found this auction on eBay. I've already got a copy so here's a chance for one of my fellow SubTalkers to get a copy of this hard to find book. Current bid is $9.95. Ends in four days. Lots of luck.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=232471162
Alan
I know part of the North Bergen Light Rail is supposed to open this year. Any firm word as to where and when?
My kids are looking forward to a trolley ride.
Don't know anything about what they've got planned in North Bergen but the Bayonne-Exchange Place segment of the Hudson - Bergen line is supposed to open in March, 2000.
If your kids want to ride a trolley take them to the Newark Subway to ride the PCC's before they are gone. The vehicles they have for the Hudson-Bergen don't exactly fit into what I'd call a "trolley".
-Dave
My kids (now 7 and 9) have Philly Suburban under their belts. They love it, especially when they get to go to the Springfield Mall as part of the ride.
My older has been on the Philly City Division and caught CTA cars on the Norristown Line.
I also look at what "feels" like a trolley. I don't know what Hudson-Bergen will be like, but the Kawasaki cars on the subway-surface lines feel (and sound) like a trolley to me.
I would really like to take at least the older on Newark, but I'm afraid the trip would be too long by the time we get done with the LIRR and PATH.
Dave, doesn't this go back to my earlier post? I believe the Hudson-Bergen Line is much more of an interurban type line-don't you agree? There will be places where it runs fairly fast, and with fairly limited stops; as opposed to a trolley downtown making stops at every other block....
Agreed. Almost all of the original street running route ideas got NIMBY'd down. Paul, in case you haven't seen pictures yet, we have some of the HBLR cars at http://www.nycsubway.org/fieldtrips.
-Dave
Did you get to ride in any of the cars, Dave?
I'm hoping they're not insulated from the outside, so you feel like you're in a space capsule, like on the BART cars or WMATA.
Yes, I took a ride on the day of the NJ-ARP annual meeting. They're fast and quiet, from the inside. I have some additional pictures from that day that I'm in the process of scanning.
There's a 2/3 page ad in today's SI Advance, headlined 'Get the connection.'
A map, with marks for the segments scheduled for 2000 opening (from E 34 St on the southern end and Route 440 on the western spur to Harborside on the north. Also a drawing of one of the cars on the tracks, and NJT Logo. The legend at the bottom reads 'Coming this spring, the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail will connect people and places in a whole new way. [sic] To find out how you can get the connection, just call 1-800-626-RIDE. Or visit us on the web at http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us.
Stations on the map, from south to north, are listed below. Stations sceduled to open this year are in bold. (P) is for a park-and-ride.
W 5th St
8th St
E 22nd St
E 34 St (P)
E 45th St (P)
Danforth Ave
Richard St
*Route 440 Spur (west to east)
*Route 440
*West Side Ave (P)
*ML King Dr
*Garfield Ave
Liberty State Park (P) (Lines merge prior to this stop)
Jersey City Medical Center
Liberty Harbor
Essex St
Exchange Pl
Harborside
Harsimus Cove
Newport
*Branch to Hoboken (the map shows a connection only from the south)
2nd St
9th St
Lincoln Harbor
Port Imperial South
Port Imperial Ferry
Bergenline Ave
Tonnelle Ave
69th St
85th St
Hudson/Bergen County Line
Vince Lombardi (P)
-Hank
After slowing to go into a curve (with or without GT signals) I've noticed that most operators begin accelerating immediately after the first car clears the curve. Are the lead trucks more prone to derailment on curves than those on the rest of the train?
Not really in my opinion. Excess speed and bad/broken rails are factors. To prevent the last cars/trucks from speeding around curves and through crossovers, there are fixed signals such as R10 signs located throughout the system. Those fixed signals keep the system safe based on the trust that the operator will obey them and not resume early. That disobedience is one of the main reasons why the Wheel Detector system is in place.
And many of these curves/switches have a sign to tell when the rear of train has cleared. Some curves even have multiple lights (yellow/white & red) to keep the speed down.
Mr t__:^)
From what I understand SIR does not use trip arms to stop red light running trains. If they don't use the NYCTA type system and they do not use a moving block system like the LIRR then the only way to stop a train and keep it from running a red light is a attentive motorman?
Sounds a little dangerous. Are the signals schedule to be upgraded any time soon?
I know that the NJT accident in Hoboken is caused by a train running a stop signal and there was nothing to stop it.
Also on a NJT Comet train I witness the engineer release the brakes when comming to a complete stop. He applied the brakes to slow the train and around 10 mph, he threw the handle into the release position. The air gauge needle fell to 0 psi but the brakes were still holding. Is this true for only that type of equipment? How about the
NYCTA?
Exactly. And considering that there has yet to be a train-train collision on the SIR, it goes to say they have some very attentive engineers. The signal system was to have been upgraded by 1995, work has not yet started. Headways during the AM rush are about 10 minutes, the PM averages 10. Off peak, it's every 1/2 hour, overnights it's every hour.
-Hank
http://www.wai.com/Transportation/Bridges-long/manhattan.html
the tect refers to trains "operating" on the south side tracks???
This is an old document. It talks about how easy it will be to fix the bridge. I think these guys made a lot of money when it turned out not to be that easy.
[This is an old document. It talks about how easy it will be to fix the bridge. I think these guys made a lot of money when it turned out not to be that easy.]
The solution is simple: support it with blimps.
SEPTA's recent $51 million penalty for facility
neglect resuting in the maiming of a small boy plus
the $1 million contempt of court charge was lowered
last week to $7.4 million for the boy and his family
and $100,000 for the contempt of court charge.
SEPTA GM Jack Leary said that paying off the entire
original judgement would "break the system" and both
parties reached a mutually acceptable settlement.
Fortunately, fares will not go up but service will worsen due to totally unrelated circumstances.
I'm wondering where they will get they will find $7.4 million without cutting out something? Those spanky new M-4's probably cost an arm and a leg!
Chuck Greene
The total was about $500 million. Obviously, SEPTA isn't quite as strapped for cash as one would think.
Once again as I plan my trip to NYC in the Last week of march 2000, I am requesting your guys help!
I want to visit the Meadowlands for Horseracing one day on my trip and need help getting there.
So far everyone is telling me the only way is a bus from the Port Authority Bus terminal.
I was wondering if there was any way to take PATH to Hoboken and a bus from there.
Thanks again,
BJ
The B/D takes a tight turn between Grand St and Broadway/Lafayette, often while going pretty fast.
Any threat of derailment on this stretch?
There's a threat of a derailment anywhere trains move. The only way to prevent a derailment is to not run trains.
NYCT's tracks are generally in good condition, and are well-maintained. Additionally, the removal of the last stage of field shunting has taken something off the trains' top speed and has slowed the rate at which the top speed is reached, reducing the likelihood that a train even COULD reach a speed sufficient to result in a derailment.
Moreover, some, if not many, of the speed restrictions that have been placed on curves have been put there for reasons of passenger comfort, not safety. IIRC, the posted speed limit (not enforced by timers, as I recall) in the area is 30MPH, at least southbound.
David
I've been on Q trains of R40's which rip around that curve at speeds that feel faster than 30 MPH. Perhaps it's the motorman's way of making up some time, as the crawl across the bridge looms ahead.
Last time I was able to see the speedo of a Flying "Q" we went round that curve at 35MPH. Too fast, IMHO. Northbound, they go even faster.
Wayne
Moreover, some, if not many, of the speed restrictions that have been placed on curves have been put there for reasons of passenger
comfort, not safety.
I would submit that passenger comfort can be best served by spending the least possible amount of time in a subway car. Speed restrictions not related to safety are counter-productive.
Stephen---Well I've been riding the Brighton Line for 45-50 years, I would submit that when I feel uncomfortable as a train buff about the car remaining on the tracks, that that is as important as giving other railfans the sense that the trains are moving as fast as possible. Are you familiar with this section of track?
Kevin---- do you ride this section frequently? Have you ever felt alarmed at the speed of the train?
>>>>Kevin---- do you ride this section frequently? Have you ever felt alarmed at the speed of the train? <<
Yes.
The Malbone wreck was caused by a novice motorman taking a curve way too fast. I'd feel better if they took that curve a bit slower.
Yeah, but remember that these stainless steel cars are somewhat more sturdy that those BMT Gate Cars. (Are those the wooden ones that fell apart when it hit the wall?) Speaking of, Mr. Pirmann had a new section about the wreck. It has coverage from the New York Times. Check it out in the Brighton BMT Line by Line section. It'll probably convince you that none of this can possibly happen again.
"This" as in the wreck.
How many of you guys remember back in the mid 50s when a Sea Beach Triplex jumped the rails, on the curve just west of the Broadway(Canal) Station as the train was turning North on Bdwy.
I know I never heard about this. How many pillars did that train take out? I'll bet it walked away with nothing more than scrapes and bruises.
I totally agree. Go as fast as you can, within reasonable safety limits. Speed up my ride!
Somebody on the "A" train had that idea back on December 11th. They took R38 #4008 for a rocket ride through Cranberry-Tube, topping out at 53MPH. Now THAT'S a subway ride! I should have known it was coming - we were moving smartly between every express stop and took the curve coming into West 4th at a good clip - perhaps 35MPH slowing to a perfect stop. A skilled operator who knew their equipment well was at the helm.
Wayne
Most of the operators here in Chicago are incompetant. Let me explain; most of Chicago uses cab signals, which are obviously easier than the conventional signals used in New York; there is a digital display of the train speed and the allowable speed, and if the train exceeds the allowable speed, a beep sounds, and the operator has 2-3 seconds to apply the brakes before the train goes into BIE.
However, there are still several places that use conventional wayside signals, such as in the State and Dearborn subways, and Congress "L". I've found that most operators are not as skilled in this type of signal, and are, in fact, extremely scared of passing a red signal. Around GTs, they will slow down almost to a stop for every red signal, even though, if they were going the posted speed, the signal would almost certainly change just in time. I've been on trains that barely go faster than 15 MPH through one of the subways, and it's quite a rocky ride with all that stopping and starting.
Official top speed here in Chicago is 58 MPH, and trains often get up to 55 on most lines. Fastest stretch is probably between Jefferson Park and Harlem on the O'Hare line (Kennedy Expy. median strip); about a 3 mile stretch. Trains usually go top speed, 58 MPH, throughout that portion.
What does the acronym BIE stand for
Brakes in Emergency. Here in NYC, usually someone ran a red or some idiot pulled the cord. It usually means a fairly substantial delay.
Had a couple of them in December, but very few otherwise in the 1990s. In the mid-1980s, it seemed they happened all the time.
Anyone remember that Al Sharpton "Day of Outrage," when all the protesters got on the trains at rush hour after a rally and pulled the cord?
He was on top then -- before he decided to jump on the Tawana Brawley bandwagon. He could have gone far if it wasn't for that embarassment, and the fire at Freddies.
Mr. Sharpton is a very shrewd businessman. He's got his bases well covered. He has 3 good scams. He runs for office and stays in the race just long enough to collect the public campaign funds. They need not be returned, you see, if a candidate pulls out of the race. Second, he latches onto the racial-political causes. He'll harass businesses and politicians until they give 'contributions' to the cause of the day and then he quietly folds his tents and moves on. Third are the fees he collects as family advisor in the more celebrated cases and causes in the area. If anyone doubts his savy, you only need to look at the D'Allou case. When the body of Mr. D'Allou was shipped back to his homeland, and the plane landed, and the reporters got off, they saw hundreds of people on the tarmac, wearing "Justice for Amadeau D'Allou" Tee Shirts, all courtesy of Mr. Sharpton.
Screw Him, IRS Will catch up to him
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THIS MAN HAS TO DO WITH TRAINS AND THE SUBWAYS? DID I MISS SOMETHING OVER HERE?
Yea! What is has to do with subways is that someone did not throw him off a platform into an oncoming Sea Beach.
Fred. Are you a BIGOT?
Oh yes. Again people protect themselves and their compatriots by calling any derision RACISM.
I guess you could say the same thing about RONALD REAGAN,AL DIMATO,GEORGE BUSH AND NOW HIS BOUNCING BABY BUSH TOO! Shapton's doing the same thing everyone else is doing in the game you call politics.I don't see the witch huts or buring crosses in front of their doors. IF he is wrong,HE will pay for his crimes. Too bad you can't say that about everybody[mister IRAN/CONTRA].
TMC: Racism is any form is obnoxious but we all have to confront it from wherever it appears. If that means caucasians like myself denouncing David Duke and John Rocker and the KKK, then AA's must do the same to the likes of Sharpton and Kaelid Muhammid. That's the only way to bridge any racial gap that exists between races. And no, I did not mind you asking me if I was a bigot. You didn't accuse me, you asked me. I hope to hell I'm not and I don;t believe I am.
The only bigots in this thread are people who would support that bigot Sharpton
SO what your saying,if anyone agrees with some of his views,he/she is a racist? Look, I dont agree with alot things alot of folks say [white or black] does that make me a bigot. My race is of duel nature[half black/half white],how could I HATE either when I am both? What can someone like you say to a person like me? I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Defending a racist makes you a racist. Furthermore, it's got nothing to do with skin color.
Well,Alan its so nice to have known you for all these years.TO KNOW MY LIKES AND DISLIKES. WHO I HATE AND WHO I LOVE, my wife ,my children,my family and my friends my life period. MAYBE you can tell me again how my parents met.HOW they had to fight day in and out with narrow minded people like yourself and others because they thought it was wrong for people of diffent races to be together. prejudice grows in that one place that makes us who we are YOUR MIND! You think it,then you feel it. It finds a place inyour heart and grows and grows till it swollows you up. Then theres nothing left of the person,just the fear and hate for things you refuse to understand or can't understand. I dont like SOME of Mr. Sharpton's views ,that we CAN AGREE upon.BUT, He is entitled to them ,just like everyone else. I didnt agree with Ronald REAGAN fully nor Bill Clinton,but SO WHAT? Life is just like that,full of opinions,thoughts and ideas. People are the same everywhere, some full of love some not so. These are the things that make us who we are. With that note,gentleman,I withdraw myself from this topic. GOD bless.
How nice of you to ramble on. It does more than I ever could to show how incapable you are of addressing the issue.
I defy you to show how anything I have said can be interpreted as racist.
All I did was attack the racist that you love.
Neither did I state that he is not entitled to state his racist views. Maybe in your mind I said the things you claim, but everyone reading this thread can see how you're responding not to what I said, but to what you imagine.
As for as you withdrawing from this topic that's fine with us. Trolls take up too much time and they're not worth the effort.
WELL, I guess you told me!I guess your too smart for me,dude. Whatever am I to do? WHAT TO DO,what to do.WAIT A MINUTE! I got it. GOD BLESS YOU. How's that, Allan ?
You obviously were lying when you said previously, "With that note,gentleman,I withdraw myself from this topic." So why should anyone believe you when you say, "GOD BLESS YOU"
AG
What was the "Day of Outrage". I must have forgotten. Anyone can fill me in?
A day in November 1987 where Sharpton's supporters/goons brought most of the subway system to a standstill by forcibly holding doors open and by pulling emergency brake cords on many subway lines. One of the dumber stunts he has pulled, as it pissed off the minority commuters who couldn't get to work that day. That's probably why he hasn't tried that since.
In one post someone asked why people in minority communties believe Al
Sharpton. The answer is because he is one of a few people they trust. Cops have a bad reputation of killing color people and with Guliani, their preception won't change anytime soon. I could tell you white people are not trusted and that a white person is a threat to them.
Again look at the NYPD. Most cops are white yet most of the city is color. Most of the cops in Harlem are white. Now what the hell is that?
Now I'm sure there are many good cops including Jeff but there are many bad ones too. Al Sharpton is one that can be trusted and he stands by them in times of distress. Until people's skin color no longer plays a role in society, he will always be a great man.
Remember, this "great man" of yours has the death of 8 people on his hands from the fire at Freddy's several years back. His words, calling the owner a white interloper (despite the fact he had been there since 1938) prompted the carnage. Think about that the next time you look up to that bigoted pig.
David, I've no clue as to what race you are so if I question your 'facts', I hope you won't call me a racist. But as a matter of fact,the ratio of black police officers in the NYPD is higher than the black population of the city. The group that is really poorly represented are the Asians. Yet they don't seem to have the same problems with the police or authority in general. Why do you think that is, David???
[Now I'm sure there are many good cops including Jeff but there are many bad ones too. Al Sharpton is one that can be trusted and he stands by them in times of distress. Until people's skin color no longer plays a role in society, he will always be a great man.]
Sharpton does a terrific job ensuring that skin color *will continue* to play a role in society. By casting everything in racial terms, he breeds resentment among both blacks and whites.
Which is his purpose, because he profits off the tension between races. Dammit, I can't seem to stop responding to this topic.
OK Chris. We all agree. Shapton is a Black racist, bigoted jackass. Now can we all get back tothe business at hand?
Nothing like Jesse Jackson though. I think he's very wrong in chastizing the Green Bay Packers for firing Ray Rhodes. When you lead the team to its worst record in 10 years, and they don't make teh playoffs for the first time in 8 years, there's plenty of reason. And he's going the wrong way with those students. It's the climate of the times, with school shootings and the like, that led to their expulsion, not the color of their skin. But I've had much more reason to respect Jesse Jackson and his veiws than I am Al Sharpton, simply because Sharpton only seems to aggravate matters when he shows up.
-Hank
Let's not get started on Rev. Jesse Jerkson. The Iranian hostages not withstanding, his recent record is abysmal.
1) Defended the 6 High School students expelled for fighting. Said the 'Zero Tollerance' rule was racist even though it applied to blacks & whites equally.
2) Tried to pressure Manhattan DA Morganthau not to indict Shawn 'Puff-Daddy Combs for posessing a stolen handgun.
It seems that the good reverend believes that the laws of society should not apply equally after all.
[Let's not get started on Rev. Jesse Jerkson. The Iranian hostages not withstanding, his recent record is abysmal.
1) Defended the 6 High School students expelled for fighting. Said the 'Zero Tollerance' rule was racist even though it applied to blacks & whites equally.]
This was a situation in which I agreed with the overall goal but not the specific means used to reach that goal. It indeed was incorrect and divisive for Jesse Jackson to have brought up racism as an issue. As you noted, the expulsions were made under a race-blind policy. But the other point is that the expulsions were wrong even though they weren't racist. Expelling students for a fist fight? That's just plain ridiculous. Use of weapons would have been a different matter, but fist fights are a more or less harmless part of growing up - I certainly remember seeing quite a few (and participating once or twice, I'll admit) back in my school days.
Interesting how things have changed.
Years ago I thought Jesse was on some of the right issues. His Rainbow Coalition was a good idea and much of the country -- even the farm belt -- was interested in some grand interaction between different cultural and racial and religious groups. However, Jesse was more interested in running for Prez and put the Coalition on the back-burner. It ended up fizziling out because of a lack of direction. Unfortunately, he has become a REAL big-time political hack and is not really taken seriously, even in the black community. (It's interesting to note that on the whole blacks in rural areas stand by Jesse, while their urban counterparts do not).
Today, Jackson is more into media pandering and getting corporate financial handouts than even the Rev. Al.
And Jesse's 'Keep hope alive' line is as lame as the issues he stands for.
Too bad, he had real promise 15-20 years ago.
Doug aka BMTman
[Today, Jackson is more into media pandering and getting corporate financial handouts than even the Rev. Al.]
I definitely don't consider them similar. Whatever his faults may be, Jesse Jackson does not try to stir up racial hatred and drive a wedge between the races. He undoubtedly still believes in unity across racial lines. Now Sharpton, on the other hand, enjoys creating racial hatred and wants to drive the races farther apart. Exactly what his goals are, I can't figure.
It's quite simple what Sharpton's goal is. Himself. Everything he does is about himself and how it can better benefit him. He dosen't really care about the people he claims to support. If he did he wouldn't be riding around in stretch limos and thousand dollar suits paid for at their expense.
While Jesse is not as inflamatory as "Reverend Al", he is the master at self promotion. Ever since he made up that story of Martin Luther King Jr. dying in his arms and went around to various TV shows, showing his shirt with Kings blood on it, his sole objective has been self promotion. Doing anything to benefit the black community is secondary on his list.
Oh boy, I can't resist this one, even though I should, but:
Trusted? Al Sharpton is more dangerous to the cause of ending racial discrimination than 10,000 Justin Volpe's. His rhetoric, downright lying and confrontational attitude brings the scorn of the very people minorities need to end racial discrimination: white people. He feeds off the misery of his "people" for his own personal and financial gain. Think of this: if racism were to disappear tomorrow, where would Al Sharpton go? Right back to the obscurity he so desperatly hates.
OK, thats enough off-topic stuff from me today.
And you are right,Chris. HE is self serving,HE does seek to improve himself on the backs of the blind deaf and dumb.IN fact,he does what people involved in "the game" DO BEST. PRAY ON THE ONE THAT THINK THEY HAVE NOTHING TO HOPE FOR. Politics suck.
And unfortunately tmc there are plenty of white politicos who are just as self serving and sickening to behold.
If you're the person who sent me this private e-mail, I can tell you right now that your threats are as meaningless as your ramblings:
"We have our differnces,true,but name calling's not called for. DON'T PUSH THE
ISSUE on this. kamehame777@aol"
As far as pushing issues, I will continue to make any comment on any issue I desire. You are being blocked from my e-mail. Any more cowardly threats will have to be posted here out in the open. I suppose that means I won't be hearing from you any more.
AG
OK guys, this has gone far enough. It's time for cooler heads to prevail. I would think that if anyone wants to have a conversation with me on race, E-mail me at my address. Discussing things cooly and out in the open without threats (no matter from what quarter they arise) is much more effective than the other way around. Since we are all subway buffs, we have much in common. Spewing out this stuff over the Subway.org is the wrong place. How about an Armistice?
Fred you are 100% correct. love, peace and blessings to everyone,most of all to Allan. Love is universal and it is the ties that bind us all together This is a transit forum and not the place for this type of discussion
Time to get off the Sharpton thing, 1 week of it is enough, also the Immigration thing on which I am as guilty as anyone. Back To Rideing the Rails
RIGHT !! either you agree with rev Al Sharpton or you dont !!! what does this have to do with RAIL TRANSIT??
like mt offer of the CHICAGO C.T.A audio rail tape for example !!! ON TOPIC !!
Hmmm.how should I take this? Oh well, thats to be expected.misunderstood again.This is what I've been talkin' about.
Alan, This person E-mailed me, talking about blowing up the NYC subway system. I think his deck is short a few cards.
Such a person has no right to be a part of this (or any civilized) forum. I hope David P. has seen that message to you.
Everybody should just erase their addresses before posting a message.
01/13/2000
It seems that we're extinguishing the flames of this controversial topic with gasoline instead of water. I have my own views and opinions of Sharpton and Co., but I won't chime in with the rest of you guys.
My favorite topics involve, MDBF, R-142's, catenary wire, Metrocards, museum cars, slow R-68's, !!!???!!RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!??!!, PCC's,Second Avenue unsubway and the Brighton line. Pick a topic and break the chain. We'll all feel better.
Bill Newkirk
BACK TO TRAINS !!
E-mails like what Alan Glick received should be treated like any other pesky spam. When you realize what it is, just delete it. Don't even read it. That's what that key marked "del" is for.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Or just don't bother to post an Email address...
Even better, I activated the block sender option of my mail program. This way I don't have to be bothered at all. I also would not like to have to follow the advice of The Real Sherman Cheung and eschew leaving my e-mail address. I enjoy being able to receive and send private e-mails to people I meet on SubTalk. Of course I understand anyone who feels different and wishes to keep their e-mail address private.
Alan
Even better, I activated the block sender option of my mail program. This way I don't have to be bothered at all. I also would not like to have to follow the advice of The Real Sherman Cheung and eschew leaving my e-mail address. I enjoy being able to receive and send private e-mails to people I meet on SubTalk. Of course I understand anyone who feels different and wishes to keep their e-mail address private.
Alan
Blocking is bull---t! Like any spammer, all they have to do is send you more garbage using a different e-mail address. I've quit wasting my time on spam. I used to go thru the trouble of blocking and reporting it to their supposed ISP's postmaster, even replying to it with a nasty response. Too much of it is just a dead end. Often times, when you reply, you get it returned as undeliverable. My best advice is just ignore it. Delete it as quickly as you determine what it is. Don't waste your time with spam. I make it my personal business to avoid doing business with anyone who spams me. This creep that sent you the e-mail is no different, except that he's not trying to sell you something. Instead, he's trying to be a pain in your ass. As for me, I'm ont going to delete my e-mail address from SubTalk. I just delete the spam and read the legit stuff. On my NYCTRANSIT e-mail address, if I get something that's not train-related or SubTalk related, I delete it. I don't even read it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
what did al sharpton say that was racist ???......... ( in your opinion ) .....
and what......................... !!!!!!!!!
does this have to due with rail transit systems world wide { ON TOPIC } right ????
I don't like Al Sharpton. I think he a Black racist. Remember Tawana Brawley? If not liking the man makes me a bigot, so be it. But if you ask me, no I'm not. I hate bigotry, any kind of it and no matter from what hole is erupts from. And for the record, I think John Rocker is a first class AH and a rotten bigot.
Agreed, on all counts. They're both scum. Entitled to their idiotic opinions, yes - there's no law against stupidity in this country - but that doesn't change my opinion of them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
off topic but new york WWRL bob law night night talk midnignt program back in 1987 ... read the hospital report of he rape kit on twanna brawley
i dont think any woman can fake a rape with the O.B GYN exam which proved twanna brawley was
raped by bigot white police !! bob law read the police and hospital report on the air i heard it live !!!
remind me of some of truly bigots we have here in los angeles at our rail systems here !!
if al sharpton is a bigot then he raped twanna brawley and not the her kidnappers !!
its the PATTY HEARST story that dont believe !!!
i prefer to give ON TOPIC posts i sorry but i had to respond to this !!! ( TWC )
Odd that you believe excerpts form an alleged report, broadcast on a station that is known for many things - none of which being racial tollerance. Yet when push came to shove, after dodging and legal ducking for eleven years, when the 3 stooges, Sharpton, Mason and Maddox finally had to put up or pay up, what did the real official report show? There was no rape. There was no conspiracy by white police officers. This was just a great Al Sharpton scam to relieve the believers of their hard-earned cash.
Two personal notes: WWRL is hardly an unbiased source for news. There is no free speech on WWRL unless it's anti-white or anti-semetic crap. So don't quote the alleged rantings of the racists on that electronic sewer. They have no credibility... Second: I notice you consistantly use a lower case (I) when referring to yourself in your posting. Self esteem problem - maybe. Ignorance - probably. Could you also possibly be the same person who sent me an E-mail about blowing up the NYC Transit System? That person had the some deficient grammatic training.
A friend in law enforcement told me that Sharpton and Co. were hoodwinked by the kniviing Ms. Brawley. While she indeed WAS raped (yes, there was a hospital report that confirmed this), the real truth is that she had had an affair with a family member and made up the nasty story about being raped by Police Officers. When Sharpton heard her story he believed it. Why not: she sounded convincing, there was evidence of rape and as we all know these days women get the benefit of the doubt whether or not the truth is being told.
Surely, Maddox and Mason should be held to the fire because they were her legally representatives in the Court of Law that -- until the end -- thought the truth was coming out of Brawley's mouth. Sharpton was the advisor for the family, not a legal representer, that's why he should not be held to the same standards as Mr. Maddox and Mason. But I'm not an expert here. Just relaying some details from a second party.
This is my final post to this off-topic subject that -- if it continues -- should be taken to another website entirely.
Doug aka BMTman
So, to sum this up, Doug:
Tawana Brawley was raped by a family member?
She decided to blame Steven Pagonis and several other white men including a police officer (who committed suicide)
Tawana Brawley was allowed to go to law school at Howard university without any penalty for what she'd done.
Mason and Maddox knew about the deception but went along with it because it was better to get some white men rather than the real 'rapist'.
Sharpton was guilty of ignorance and is just a blithering baffoon.
If this is true, why has the real rapist never been brought to justice?
Why is is the Blithering Baffoon, Reverend Al, elevated to such high stature in the minority community?
Why are so many people of color so willing to accept these 'truths', see innocent people persecuted, and deny the truth, even in the face of incontrovertable facts?
Why are those who see the truth called racists?
Now you can drop the subject, Doug...
At the very least Rev. Al should learn from the Brawley hoax that you can't yell "Fire"! in a crowded theatre (i.e., he shouldn't go running to the first person who claims "racism").
BTW, the Rev. Al was called for assistance by white off-duty cops and firemen who were about to loose their jobs from appearing in a parade that mocked the death of a black man in Texas. If Sharpton were truly just involving himself with "black issues" he certainly wouldn't have represented the officers from Howard Beach (or was it Broad Channel?).
Sharpton is not just a one-issue activist. That's not to say that I agree with his methods. But if there was truly a level-playing field in America, there would be not need for a Rev. Al Sharpton.
Hopefully this will be my last post (?) on this issue.
Doug aka BMTman
What Sharpton did went beyond yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. He poured gasoline on Steven Pagones and lit a match. He's a liar, criminal, racist, conman and a big fat jerk. I rarely despise someone to the point of outright hatred, but Al brings me REALLY close to that point.
Now you know how I feel about the Clintons.
You're intitled to your opinion, which isn't much.
[You're intitled to your opinion, which isn't much.]
Excuse me -- that's entitled, to your opinion....
Obviously we disagree on this subject. Better to let it rest. I won't hold it against you (lol)
Agreeing to disagree isn't a bad thing.
I'm going back to Transit subjects -- this Sharpton stuff is getting tired.
"Why is is the Blithering Baffoon, Reverend Al, elevated to such high stature in the minority community?
Why are so many people of color so willing to accept these 'truths', see innocent people persecuted, and deny the truth, even in the face of incontrovertable facts?"
Because racism (anti-white, anti-semetic, anti-Korean, etc., etc.) is unfortunately accepted and promoted in the black community. When a John Rocker spews racism he is roundly denounced amongst whites. Unfortunately the same can't be said for the black community when one of its own perpetrates the same filth. Worse than supporting black racists, even black criminals are elevated in the black community, ie. OJ and the Central Park rapists. Is it any wonder then that people who merely talk hate are more than tolerated?
AG
[Yea! What is has to do with subways is that someone did not throw him off a platform into an oncoming Sea Beach.]
Bad idea ... the train probably would derail.
Pete: Great show. I'm laughing my head off.
Not if it was a Triplex.
Someone brought up Sharpton's 1987 "Day of Outrage" and it's effect on the subways. When Al Sharptons name is mentioned, emotions get high. It's just the way it is.
The time I lost all my respect for Reverend Al was after the Howard Beach incident when those racist @$$holes chased Michael Griffith onto the Belt Pkway. He positively insisted that the driver that hit Griffith was definitely involved with the Howard Beach gang and he had proof. (Never showed the proof though) It didn't matter that the driver was an adult court officer not from Howard Beach and the gang was all teens. Nothing in his life tied him in with that rabble. Besides, I don't think any computer in the world could have even figured out the exact time to be travelling on the Belt to coincide with the chasing of Griffith. It was a preposterous premise and for Sharton to implicate someone that he knew couldn't possibly be guilty (other than possibly leaving the scene) made me lose all respect for him. This was before Tawana Brawley.
I must point out though that as a cop I've made some nice overtime as a result of Sharpton, for that I'm thankful to him!!
That's not a new story for the 'Rotund Reverend' - stating he has proof of something when he has hot air. Where is all the alleged proof that Steven Pagonis raped Tawana Brawley? If he didn't produce it at his libel trial, what is he saving it for - his memoirs?
The nice thing is that Al Sharpton doesn't bother me. He has 2 main targets and I'm neither. He targets rich businessmen who pay him to go away and he targets his own followers who do without so he can fly first class, ride in limos and wear $1500 suits. If these groups want to support his opulent life-style - c'est la vie.
An excellent description of this conman/racial arsonist. Has anyone ever asked the "Reverend" where his church is located? Why does he live in suburban New Jersey, and not with his "people"?
And lastly, before I stray off topic yet again, why isn't he in prison for criminally negligent homicide for forcing a good police officer to commit suicide because he fingered him as one of Tawana Brawley's "rapists"?
First, it is quite common for a Reverend NOT to have his own "flock" -- much like a rabbi -- but gets to sermonize at as a guest speaker at area churches.
Second, the last time I checked he lived in Teaneck, New Jersey (I guess that counts as a suburban neighborhood). I believe he also has an apartment in Flatbush (as his legal NY residence).
[And lastly, before I stray off topic yet again, why isn't he in prison
for criminally negligent homicide for forcing a good police officer to
commit suicide because he fingered him as one of Tawana Brawley's
"rapists"?]
Uh, it was established that the Officer in question committed suicide due to problems in his domestic life, if I recall things correctly.
You are aware that this thread is WAY off topic. What does Sharpton have to do with rapid transit, anyway? In quiring minds want to know!
Doug aka BMTman
Well, he was at the million youth march and local service under Lennox Ave. was suspended at that time.
There was more to that then just the march. At the time, the invert project was underway, and there was only single-track service. It was feared that the large crowd, all 1 million of them (less 990,000) would board the subway after the rally, and that would just be dangerous on the one platform.
-Hank
That is nonsense. Guiliani in his personal crusade against those he feels are a threat decided to shut them down before they got a permit. When that failed, he brought in his police in helicopters and herded everyone out of the area. The subway station was closed long before that parade even started. Where as his big New Year's bash kept Times Square open only long enough to get as many people into the area before the safety factor forced them to shut it down.
However, the circumstances are not analogous. You can't compare the mind-set and demeanor of people coming to Times Square to celebrate the New Year with an angry crowd heading for a "DAY OF OUTRAGE" rally. Just the names of the events tells you they were not one & the same and were correctly dealt with differently.
Yeah, I agree with that but I add that with Guiliani, his opinion is the bottom line. While the Hayden Planetarium is getting millions for renovations, the Brooklyn Museum was threatened to get money taken away. Both are sources of information and education, both receive subsidies. One looked up to the stars and the other pooped on them. The dictator had many a role in disrupting government because of his own views, thats all I'm saying, whether we are talking of apples and oranges, or not.
Yes and under Dinkins, millions were poured into the Arthur Ashe stadium (which serves far fewer people than the museum or planetarium)
Yeah, but doesn't the U.S. Open bring in alot of money to the city?
Yes it does - but so do the cultural attractions of this City (bring in a lot of revenue to the city) The fact is that David Dinkins was not motivated by the desire to increase revenue for the city but only by his love of tennis. If you consider that Major league baseball brings in 'slightly more' revenue to the city than the USTA, then one would have to ask why Dave Dinkins had the LaGuardia landing pattern over Arthur Ashe stadium altered during the US Open but never took such actions for Shea Stadium, right across Roosevelt Avenue. The fact is that Dave Dinkins was a frequent visitor to Arthur Ase Stadium but rarely, if ever showed his face at Shea.
Had he come to Shea, I suspect they would have offered him a job in the washroom.
'Bob Grant' you're not funny.
THIS IS A TRANSIT WEBSITE, so discuss some transit...
By the same token, Guliani, a big baseball fan, is throwing money at the Yankees and the Mets for some type of change in the home of the Yankees, as well as minor-league stadiums in Brooklyn and Staten Island. Having seen the sweetheart lease the SI Yankees are getting, it gives new meaning to 'sweetheart deal'. Realize that if the team doesn't meet attendance goals 3 straight years, they can feel free to move. Additionally, the team gets to keep nearly 90% of the generated revenue. This is for a CLASS A team. High school kids! Additionally, there is no provision for other events at the stadium, such as concerts and PSAL games.
-Hank
What this "dictator" you speak of did was applauded by many.
Many people feel that public funds should not be used in a manner which may offend a certain group - whether that group be one of race, religion, or otherwise.
And to those who cry out free speech, let me ask you something. If someone was to do a "elephant dung" portrait of Martin Luther King, or of a rabbi, or even of Jennifer Lopez, would you still say that there is nothing wrong with public funds being spent to create those paintings?
If Rev Al, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, and/or Hispanic Anti-Defamation League can give their respective blessings for public funds to be used that way, then the argument of free speech expression is valid. But my suspicion is that if such paintings were created, there would be daily protests until the museum removes those paintings and issues an apology to the offended group.
Like they say, what if the shoe was on the other foot?
[Like they say, what if the shoe was on the other foot?]
Depends on whether you're talking about the left or right foot...I'm a 12 1/2 BTW.
;-)
[...with Guiliani, his opinion is the bottom line.}
I had made reference to this in the past also. I also admitted that Guiliani could be a much better mayor (and person) if he'd only realize the he too can be wrong. The thread went on and on and I was asked if I disliked Guiliani because of his skin color. I was offended, but sadly one has to expect that sort of response when stating their opinion(s).
Wayne
First off, I didn't start this thread. Second, no such determination about the unfortunate officer's suicide was ever made. Personally, being blamed for a rape you never commited might be more reason to kill yourself then a fight with the wife.
You're right, as this is off topic I'll shut up. I'll only rail against Sharpton when he does something transit related.
ok every body is a bigot !!! every body believes HIS or her race & religion & culture is superior or better
than every one elses inferior or lesser..... etc.... but i did believe twanna brawley 100 %
i heard bob law on night talk radio WWRL back in 1987 he described the hospital police report...
look at some of you whoi hate RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!
I love railfan windows, I also love EMD GP7's Unfortunately, both are disappearing. As for Sharpton, lets agree to disagree. WE ARE ALL BROTHER SUBWAY/RAIL BUFFS, WE THRILL TO THE SAME EXPERIENCES AND IF WE WERE TRACKSIDE, WE WOULDN"T EVEN BE CONCIOUS OF EACH OTHER"S RACE BUT WOULD ENJOY EACH OTHER"S COMPANY I HAVE MANY FRIENDS WHO HAPPEN TO HAVE BLACK SKIN AND WE DEFINE RACISTS AS THOSE PEOPLE, BLACK OR WHITE WHO CALL ATTENTION TO SUCH TRIVIAL DIFFERENCES AS SKIN COLOR we are FRIENDS, we are BROTHERS, we are PEOPLE, we are the HUMAN RACE and we know how to deal with those who commit injustice and try to divide our fellowship
Well said and maybe this should just be the end of it. BTW, I'm beginning to hear of April 29th as the day of the Coney Island- Stillwell Avenue Tour. Two brothers have already signed on. Is this a trend. Are there others who want this date? I have to know soon. I'm in California and have to start making plans so I can be there.
I always thought it meant Bringing In Extra!
"I've found that most operators are not as skilled in this type of signal, and are, in fact, extremely scared of passing a red signal. Around GTs, they will slow down almost to a stop for every red signal, even though, if they were going the posted speed, the signal would almost certainly change just in time."
I agree 100% that *some* operators are overly concerned about getting tripped and pass them slow as a result. But my general experience on the Dearborn subway of the Blue line is that most trains really tear along between Division and the big turn before Clark/Lake, especially on weekends when Chicago station is closed. The noise gets so loud that you literally cannot hear someone in the seat next to you talking to you unless they SCREAM in your ear! On the other hand, it's been a while since I've ridden the State St. subway, but with the spacing of stations on that line, the trains never get up to full speed anyway, except possibly at the river crossing.
That train had to be possessed by the spirit of the R-10s. I wonder how the CPW express run went.
I have to agree with your assessment of taking that curve at 35 mph on that Q train. That does sound too fast. High speed on a nice straightaway is one thing, but on curves, you don't want to push your luck.
And the N train crawls through curves.
N Broadway Express
Those %$#@& R68's. I'm a firm believer that the higher the R68 number, the slower the car accelerates. Therefore, the ones on the Franklin Shuttle merely crawl.
The Alsthoms seem to be slower than the Jeumont-Schneiders when it comes to R68s, especially in acceleration from a standing stop.
Wayne
wasn't there an incident a while back on that curve where a southbound Q had some problems with a 3rd rail shoe on one of the cars and missed a "gap"....(i know my terminology is probably wrong)...I remember being in NY when it happened...and reading about it on Subtalk. If anyone remembers, was it speed related??
Nope, in that incident the 3rd Rail cover came off and was atop of the rail. When the train came the shoes went over the cove and there was no power to the wheels. Naturally the train stopped. I believe that the last few cars (that still had power pulled the train out and back in to B'way Lafayette.
And it wasn't a "Q", thank heavens - it was a "D". No love lost there.
Wayne
Passenger comfort (or safety) seems (at least it's what I've been guessing) why northbound #4 trains now come out of the tunnel onto the Jerome Ave el (south of the 161 Street Station) rather slowly now. They used to leave 149th St-Concourse and after passing a couple of timers they would go full speed to 161 Street, and just as the train exited the tunnel it would suddenly rock from side to side very quickly and I've seen a few people bump their heads on the wall. Maybe someone actually got hurt???
Wayne
True. I would have a MAJOR problem if trains were discontinued for that reason.
While field shunting still existed, we were testing the R-46s after overhaul. We'd run the stretch between 65th St. and 36th St. "on the post", often hitting speeds of 55 MPH and possibly more (pre speedometers). My feeling was that if we derailed, there was something wrong with the car. The cars would scream and groan around the curves but they'd never derail.
Kevin--- I think this is the section of track that I was asking about a month ago. Sometimes when I have been in rear cars of the train, I have really gotten uncomfortable with the speed. The person who responded mentioned southbound, but I've always experienced the discomfort going toward Broadway Lafayette. I would often look around at other passengers to see if anyone else was alarmed.
Well, that curve is pretty well banked and like other IND curves, built for speed. I traveled it many many times and never felt threatened. Perhaps all the noise the tains make lends itself to the illusion of a faster speed that actually at?
--Mark
Well, that curve is pretty well banked and like other IND curves, built for speed. I traveled it many many times and never felt threatened. Perhaps all the noise the tains make lends itself to the illusion of a faster speed that actually at?
--Mark
I just read the article about the Malbone St. wreck on this site. A survivor said the train was going 70 MPH when it jumped the track. I would think that would be physically impossible. the wreck occurred back in 1918. We're not talking about BART, here. Once again, perception. I could believe 40 or 50 MPH, but not 70. How fast were the BU's capable of going, anyway?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I just read the article about the Malbone St. wreck on this site. A survivor said the train was going 70 MPH when it jumped the track.]
I remember reading this also in "Uptown Downtown". When the T/O lost control of the train it was on a downgrade so that's probably why it was travelling so fast.
Wayne
Doesn't that area contain timers of any sort? How about when the other accident occured in the 70s?
A train of slow moving R32s derailed in the exact same place as the Brighton Local-Express driven by Edward Luciano (I forget when). No damage.
A train of slow moving R32s derailed in the exact same place as the Brighton Local-Express driven by Edward Luciano (I forget when). No damage.
There was damage. The whole car buckled. I don't know if it was ever repaired or scrapped.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
A train of slow moving R32s derailed in the exact same place as the Brighton Local-Express driven by Edward Luciano (I forget when). No damage.
The motorman's name was Edward Luciano, yet the article stated his name as Anthony Lewis.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The derailment of the R-32s at the Malbone tunnel entrance was December 1, 1974. Very eerie coincidence as that date was 56 years and one month from the Malbone Street Disaster.
Doug aka BMTman
The derailment of the R-32s at the Malbone tunnel entrance was December 1, 1974. Very eerie coincidence as that date was 56 years and one month from the Malbone Street Disaster.
Doug aka BMTman
Look for the next one on Jan. 1, 2031. Hey, that's only 31 years away. I wonder what kind of rolling stock will be involved in the next Malbone St. mishap. It probably hasen't even been designed yet.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Simple. It'll be an R-32. They'll last that long :)
--Mark
Nah. The R68's will still be around then. Unfortunatly, their speed will have been restricted so much that derailment might become impossible.
Nah. The R68's will still be around then. Unfortunatly, their speed will have been restricted so much that derailment might become impossible.
The R-32 in 1974 was going pretty slow. You do have a point, though. In another 30 years, the hampsters that turn the wheels in the R-68's that move the train will be so old and weary that you will be able to walk faster than an R-68 can move.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, it would be kind of tough for a train moving at 1 mph to derail...:)
Hopefully at that time, they'll be moving at 1 km/h.
Probably 2014 R203's, (built by Metro-Cammell/Alsthom overseas (UK) - the replacement for the last R32s) and assembled at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. They will probably crumple up like aluminum cans.
Wayne
Probably 2014 R203's, (built by Metro-Cammell/Alsthom overseas (UK) - the replacement for the last R32s) and assembled at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. They will probably crumple up like aluminum cans.
Wayne
Are you sure its not going to br a solar-powered rickshaw with flanged wheels?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Wanna bet they'll have shovel noses?
For the Frnaklin Shuttle, I think more likely the equipment will be GM "Newest Look" diesel buses moved over from the old BMT Fourth Avenue Busway after their first 6,000,000 miles.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
What, no car numbers Wayne? (couldn't resist..)
Oh, yes. I almost forgot. They'll probably be in the 10000's range.
(i.e. 10120-10121-10123-10122). Kind of like the 1938 London Tube stock.
Wayne
The best account of the Malbone Street is Brian Cudahy's which is reviewed at this link with additional informative material from Alan Glick and anon_e_mouse.
BTW, the only place I have ever seen the Malbone Wreck train referred to as the "Brighton Beach Local-Express" is in Fischler. I don't know where he picked up that phrase, but he repeats it over and over.
NO DAMAGE??? #3669 took a huge hit at the the right side, just behind the second door, right on the edge of the curtain wall. There's your three-foot-deep-dent in the side, PLUS the frame was compromised. I don't believe the carbody itself was penetrated, but it was SEVERELY dented. The floor was raised and the seat knocked off. There was some roof damage as well. This plus the frame damage doomed her.
Today, you will see #3669 mated to #3628. The car numbered #3669 today was formerly #3668 (they converted it from "A" to "B" unit). The original #3669 was scrapped. I believe they removed the carcass by crane and flat-bed truck.
Wayne
In 1918, there were no timers. In fact, this S curve was almost brand new, being built to accomodate the new tunnel from the Flatbush Ave. corridor to the newly expanded Prospect Park station. So the emergency motorman probably didn't even realize that an S curve was now there.
IIRC, he missed the cutoff from the Fulton el and had to back up to go down the Brighton line. This is what caused him to speed, to make up lost time.
The 1974 accident was probably caused by either faulty subway cars or crappy tracks, which were rampant during the height of deferred maintenance.
(the 1974 accident at Malbone Street Portal...)
It split the switch. The rear wheels of R32 #3669 decided to go into the "main line" right-hand tunnel rather than over the switch into the terminal track.
Wayne
Weren't the shuttle trains using the Coney Island-bound platform at the time due to some sort of work being done on the other track at Prospect Park?
No, he simply split the switch. It happens. It happened to #5282. It happened to #8884. It happened to a BMT Standard (#2299 - took a row of pillars out too). It happened to #4260. It happened to DC Metro Rohr 1029. The front wheels were headed to the normal track, the rear wheels wanted to commune with the ghosts of BU #80 and #100.
Wayne
Doesn't that area contain timers of any sort? How about when the other accident occured in the 70s?
There were no timers in 1918. I don't think they had trip cocks either. In 1974, yes. The R-32 was going slow enough that nothing should have happened, but it did.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The ELS never had trip cocks, but the Interborough had trip cocks from the get-go on the SUBWAY lines..
I've read in several places (including "Uptown, Downtown") that the train was making 45 MPH...
I've read in several places (including "Uptown, Downtown") that the train was making 45 MPH...
That's a bit more realistic, but 70? No.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Have any of you seen "Felicity" tonight? Boy what a fake of the Lexington avenue line! They appear to be using BMT R32's and R38's on an IRT line. The colors in the stations were off for the subway lines.
And the lights don't flicker in R32 or R38 cars anymore.
Also can anybody be stuck there for over three hours? They'd pull a train in back of the stuck one and reverse it into the nearest station.
From a railfan's point of view, it's another TV show screw up of the subway. At least let them have IRT cars on the IRT.
And there are no door chimes on R32's either. Looking at 51st street station, the transfer to the E sign is fake because both E and F stations stop on the lower level.
Still though, there could've been some real shots from 51st street on the Lex line.
I wonder what TV show gave the most realistic subway scene.
Any guesses?
Notes to booT:
1 Exterior of Astor Pl. station
2 Interior of an "M" line (car number: 6230)
3 Scroll signs read "6 Lexington Ave"
4 Train leaving Station appears more like an "A" or "F"
5 Do the lights REALLY go out if they SLAM the brakes?
6 Does the NYC Subway P.A. REALLY sound THAT bad?
7 Does moving a stalled train take that long?
8 4pm... 5pm.. cmon this is rush hour!?!!
Also can anybody be stuck there for over three hours? They'd pull a train in back of the stuck one and reverse it into the nearest
station.
Have the train behind derail. Have the train they are on and the one ahead have broken brake lines (as a result of the object that derailed the last train). All three trains are between stations. Make sure you are in a stretch with no catwalk. How do you evacuate the middle train?
what did you expect ????? this is hollywood........ hollywierd !! ....
what did you expect??? yhis is TV hollywood - hollyweird !!!
01/10/2000
Well put Mr.Willie!!!!. Hollywood doesn't really care for accuracy on SOME films and TV shows. They also have a reputation of rewriting history a bit to add "flavor" to a somewhat boring script.
Bill Newkirk
Well put Mr.Willie!!!!. Hollywood doesn't really care for accuracy on SOME films and TV shows. They also have a reputation of rewriting history a bit to add "flavor" to a somewhat boring script.
I hate when they do that, especially when filming something historical. They always have to jazz up everything, and that takes away from the historical accuracy of the production.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I thought I recall hearing somewhere that making inaccuracies of the subway system in movies was a TA requirement such that their "good name" wouldn't be tarnished. This would help to differentiate the TA (and the subway) in real life vs a fictional representation of it in the movies.
Comments?
--Mark
I also saw that scene of "Felecity" tonight on TV. I just happened to turn to that channel when that scene popped up. At first it looked like it was a real #6 train, but when they showed the whole car I noticed the seats at the end of the car that were facing foward. I also a MTA imprint on the door windows that obviously was wrong.
As for TV subway scenes, I do remeber watching a episode of the soap opera "Guiding Light". Fans of this show may remeber in the early 90's there was a scene where two character's (Mindy & AC Mallet) went to search for AC's sister in NYC. They had to use the N train to get to one spot in a hurry. They used an actual N train. And of course there was the "Geraldo" show where they used two car train as the setting of that day's show. The topic was obviously about the subway and crime. The line used was once again the N line.
That must've been a rerun, I remember seeing that episode earlier on in the season. They did make marginal efforts at realism. The mere fact that they were trying to portray a geographically correct trip from the "UNY" (i.e., NYU) area near Astor Place to the "Modern" (i.e., MOMA) near 51st St is a Good Thing.
It was more annoying watching the first episode of the other "young girl goes to NYC to define self" series (Time of Your Life, on Fox) where a bunch of the main characters (drunk) enter a subway station where the token booth is closed. They have no fare so they jump the turnstiles, then get arrested for fare beating. Plus, when reciting the bridge and tunnels of Manhattan, they omitted all the Harlem River spans. :-)
For the record, I thought the Train Operator exam was a little tricky but fair. You really had to be paying attention (in one question you had to convert yards to feet) in order to get some questions.
The only question that I wasn't sure of was one about coupling trains. There was a paragraph to read about coupling trains, which basically said that you have to couple trains by attaching the smaller part to the larger part, and not vice-versa. But, the exception to this rule is when coupling on a grade, when you must couple the larger portion to the smaller portion. It also said that all coupling must be done upgrade.
The question was: You have an eight car train and a two car train. The only time you would couple the 8-car section to the 2-car section is when you're on what kind of surface:
(a) Level (b) Downgrade (c) Upgrade
I didn't understand this question because why should it matter if it's downgrade or upgrade -- they are both grades.
If someone knows the answer to this, I would appreciate the help!
Thanks.
When you couple trains on a grade, all movements must go up grade.
Hope this helps.
I would say then that if the 2 car piece is BELOW the 8 car piece, you couple it, if the 8 car piece is below the 2 car piece, you couble that. Since I gather you're IN the pice you're coupling, looking at the other piece, the answer they want is upgrade.
The question was: You have an eight car train and a two car train. The only time you would couple
the 8-car section to the 2-car section is when you're on what kind of surface:
(a) Level (b) Downgrade (c) Upgrade
I didn't understand this question because why should it matter if it's downgrade or upgrade --
they are both grades.
That's why multiple choice questions are bad if poorly designed.
The way I would read this is (assuming this is the EXACT language
that was on the test, not your paraphrased recollection) that
the "you" in that sentence refers to a motorman operating the
8 car section and in that case the answer is (c). In other
words, the 2 car section is stationary and you run the 8 car
section uphill into the 2 car section.
Which is also why the railroad's exams are NOT multiple choice. Fill in, you either know it or not. Hiring should not be done on the basis of a multiple choice test which selects based on knowledge and not intelligience. This is why we have so many idiots opening doors on the wrong side of the train.
The answer to your question is found in rule #52c:
"The smaller amount of cars must be coupled to the larger amount EXCEPT, when coupling on a grade, all movements must be made upgrade. When uncoupling on a grade, all movements must be made downgrade. NOTE: Cars with hook type couplers must be buffed before uncoupling."
I heard from a cleaner that Coney Island Station is closing for the summer for a renovation. Is this true? Is so where are they going to reroute trains?
Maybe not Summer 2000, but it's coming. The terminal will, for all intents and purposes, be replaced on-site. The only line to run (pretty much) uninterrupted to/from Stillwell during the replacement will be the B, because at least part of the West End Line terminus is on its own structure.
BTW, I've seen the architectural plan, and you all with either love it, or hate it. It basically replicates a European trainshed!
Do you know when. By the way I'm starting to think that this will help with the car shortages.
No, I don't know when.
Is it true the new station will still have eight tracks and four platforms, but will have a ninth bypass track?
Is there any place that architectural plan can be seen?
Is it true the new station will still have eight tracks and four platforms, but will have a ninth bypass track?
Yes. From what I remember hearing, the current platforms are supposed to be rebuilt a little narrower to provide room for the 9th track. This bypass track will enable trains to be put in or taken out in rush hours to provide the additional 63rd St / Queens service.
--Mark
Are they planning a pedestrian overpass like the one near the Aquarium? That's one thing I'd like to see.
Are they rebuilding the retail area? Will they try to put in more stores? Restrooms?
Hey they have stores and a food place in that station, forgot about them
so where will the trains terminate?
The N will terminate at 86th like the last reconstruction project, and the D & F have switches between W8th and Stillwell, so they'll probably discharge passengers there and use those switches to turn back.
That's crappy. How are people supposed to get to Nathan's?
I propose reopening Culver Depot and Sea Beach Palace for the duration. A trolley shuttle on Surf Avenue would be nice, too, but I don't want to get too greedy. ;-)
I propose reopening Culver Depot and Sea Beach Palace for the duration. A trolley shuttle on Surf Avenue would be nice, too, but I don't want to get too greedy. ;-)
I do. Bring back the BU's. Also, when they rebuild Stillwell, make it a replica of Park Row.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"I propose reopening Culver Depot and Sea Beach Palace for the duration. A trolley shuttle on Surf Avenue would be nice, too, but I don't want to get too greedy. ;-)
I do. Bring back the BU's. Also, when they rebuild Stillwell, make it a replica of Park Row."
Even better, rebuild Stillwell Terminal to copy the original West End Terminal. Then, along with Paul Matus's idea of rebuilding the Culver and Sea Beach Terminals, all we'd have to do would be to rebuild the Brighton Terminal and Hotel grounds and we'd have it all back again.
If I may be permitted to quote myself--
"Older is better than newer 'cause it was there first" -- Alan Glick
If I may be permitted to quote myself--
"Older is better than newer 'cause it was there first" -- Alan Glick
LOL! (I don't usually respond just to add a single word, but that's a good line)
Glad you liked it. In all fairness I should mention that this is sort of a paraphrase of Mammy Yokum's dictum, "Good is better than evil 'cause it's nicer."
If I may be permitted to quote myself--
"Older is better than newer 'cause it was there first" -- Alan Glick
I like that. I'll have to remember that one :-)
Of course we'd have to run Standards on the rebuilt lines exclusively!
And to make things interesting, I'd suggest that heypaul to bring back a couple of the Coney Island funhouses and freak shows.
Doug aka BMTman
Of course we'd have to run Standards on the rebuilt lines exclusively!
No. With all that original stuff, the BU's would be much more appropriate.
And to make things interesting, I'd suggest that heypaul to bring back a couple of the Coney Island funhouses and freak shows.
If you want funhouses and freak shows, go to 370 Jay St. The suits put on shows daily.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Before we start ordering BUs, we should do some historical checking. Other than the Culver, was there ever any BU service into the current Stillwell terminal?
As I recall, the connections into Stillwell from the Brighton, Seach, and West End were all with Standards.
(I'm not talking about BUs into the pre-Stillwell West End Terminal or the West End C service.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
BU's still ran into Stillwell on rush-hour shuttles from the West End and Culver Lines due to car shortages even after Unification.
The Brighton Line didn't become all steel cars until no earlier than 1924.
The Flatbush ave connector opened in 1920. Are you saying that they used wooden cars on this part of the line before 1924?
The Flatbush ave connector opened in 1920. Are you saying that they used wooden cars on this part of the line before 1924?
BU's were incapable of running in the Flatbush Ave. Tunnel. The only subway tunnels that they were capable of running in were from Chambers St., over the Manny B., down 4th Ave. until 36th St. only. From there, they had to exit at 9th Ave. and go up on the culver or West End. they were incapable of going further down 4th Ave. The only other exception was the Malbone St. tunnel. If the BU's continued to run on the Brighton until 1924, it was probably on the 7-Franklin/Brighton line running from Franklin Ave. to Coney Island. The connection between the Fulton St. El and the Franklin Ave. Line was severed when the Flatbush Ave. Tunnel opened.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, on the Brighton-Franklin. Steel cars were first used on Brighton-Franklin in 1924. All elevated cars weren't removed from Brighton-Franklin service until 1927 (you forced me to delve into my frighteningly malarranged mountain of notes).
A serious accident occured August 5, 1924 when a BU train struck a steel train at Ocean Parkway, 2 killed, about 30 injured.
A serious accident occured August 5, 1924 when a BU train struck a steel train at Ocean Parkway, 2 killed, about 30 injured.
Ouch! I'll bet the paint on the A/B wasn't even scratched, while the BU became a pile of firewood.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, you can guess who won that one.
The Brighton Line didn't become all steel cars until no earlier than 1924.
That's a coincidence. That was the same year that the last A/B's were built.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
While we're making requests, why not try and bring the Triplexes out of mothballs by making new ones and running them on my line. I can dream with the best of you---right?
Great idea! Have the guys who built the New Orleans replica trolleys build some new Triplexes, complete with all the features that made them famous - rotating drums between the cars, "wicker" seats, chicken wire door windows, brass fans (for a touch of class), and those little white lite bulbs over the doors. And for an encore, build a mini-fleet of BMT Standards and another mini-fleet of authentic R10s.
I can dream too, can't I?
Wayne
Great idea! Have the guys who built the New Orleans replica trolleys build some new Triplexes, complete with all the features that made them famous - rotating drums between the cars, "wicker" seats, chicken wire door windows, brass fans (for a touch of class), and those little white lite bulbs over the doors. And for an encore, build a mini-fleet of BMT Standards and another mini-fleet of authentic R10s.
I can dream too, can't I?
Wayne
Mini-fleet? Why not a full-size fleet. Send all the stainless steel equipment to the scrapyard and replace all the rolling stock with Hi-V's, Lo-V's, BMT Standards, Triplexes, Multi's, R-1/9's, R-10's, BU's, Manhattan Gate Cars, MUDC's. Scrap all the buses. Lay down tracks on all the streets with bus routes, and have whole fleets of TARS trolleys, Peter Witts and PCC's built. Lets bring back the glory that New York once had in rail transit! Yeah!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How about this -- a 200 car order made up of 50 R-10s and 45 BMT Standards (same total length as 50 R-10s) for the IND and BMT and 50 Low Vs for the IRT mainline and 50 R-36WFs and five R-33WFs (with AC) for the Flushing line.
Forget the R-10 They never ran to Coney Island, The R 11 Did. Also the person who asked how they can get to Nathans from W 8th St. It is only a 6 short block walk, enjoy it, Carvels, Merry Go Round, Astroland, Wonder Wheel all on the way. ReOpen Steeple Chase Park and the Parachutte Jump.
Hmmmmmm, but, wouldn't it look nicer if Disney took over?
01/11/2000
"Forget the R-10, they never ran to Coney Island"
OH yes they did. Not as new, but they did show up years later on the (B) painted blue and white, and on the (D) & (F), graffittied during the R-46 cracked truck fiasco. I don't think they showed their faces on the (N). This sounds like a job for......William Padron..MR-R10 !!
Bill Newkirk
Maybe they did, but basically they were a A Train equipment, we want BMT Stuff
Maybe they did, but basically they were a A Train equipment, we want BMT Stuff
Yeah, like Standards, Triplexes, Multi's, Green Hornets, Zephyrs, Bluebirds, Q-Types, C-Types, BU's, and els - lots of els!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The R-10's did indeed run into and out from Coney Island in regular service. After the Chrystie Street connection was opened on November 26, 1967, the cars themselves would eventually operate first on the "B" line runs to/from Washington Heights (rush hours) or West 4th Street (middays and perhaps weekends).
The R-10's also operated to/from 57th Street-6th Avenue on non-rush hour and weekend "B" trains eventually as well. The illustrated car section featuring photo images of the cars in various paint schemes along that line are featuring very boldly and quite well IMHO.
The R-10's did make appearences on the "D" Brighton and "F" Culver lines as well, and I have taken rides on all of the three routes I have now mentioned above in regular customer service. I am not including the three fantrips (10/23/1976, 06/08/1976 and 10/29/1989) with the cars used that did stop or bypass Coney Island, although I really should do.
There were reports of sightings of the R-10's in regular service in use on the "N" Sea Beach line on occasion, but I was never able to ride them on that route if they were there. Of course, the cars were first delivered to Coney Island Yard, and they were tested on the middle express tracks on the Sea Beach back in 1948-49.
And let's not forget that R-7A car #1575, the prototype of the R-10's, was indeed in service on the IND "D" and "F" plus BMT "QJ" routes to and from Coney Island. I have seen photographs and slides of them that are in existence (with some of them in my collection of course).
So, R-10's did indeed were at Stillwell Avenue at some point during their four decade life span, regardless if they were most identified with the IND "A" line (my all-time favorite NYC Subway route actually) during its glory years. By the way, restored car #3184 (owned by Railway Preservationists Corporation) is still currently residing at Coney Island Yard...just look out quickly and carefully from a Stillwell Avenue-bound "F" train window as it leaves Avenue X.
-William A. Padron
[R-10's and nothing else]
Well if I'm Sea Beach Fred, you're R10 Willie. Come on, take that name. That was a hell of an answer. I'm going to look up those R10's and get a good picture of them.
No, no. William is Mr. R-10, hands down. He is THE biggest R-10 fan around. That's why I don't use that handle, even though most of you know I feel the same way about those immortal cars.
I love the Triplex but sad to say I'm not that much of an expert on them. I just loved the way they looked and how powerful they seemed to ride. Was it just my imagination?
Fred Yup especially on the Sea Beach. Maybe they will send you one to ride in next Years Rose Parade on Colorado Blvd when UCLA comes back
01/13/2000
Yep! Bill Padron is indeed "MR.R-10". Somebody else on the west coast uses the moniker "Willie" and loves !!!!!RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!???!!, perhaps R-10 railfan windows !
Mr. R-10 east,sleeps,drinks and thinks R-10's!
R-12/14's to him are skinny R-10's !!
Bill Newkirk
Any other differences between the 10's and the 12's other than the IND-IRT Specs and the front/rear facing seats on the R-10? That was major differences enough. Were the 12's as fast.
Any other differences between the 10's and the 12's
other than the IND-IRT Specs and the front/rear
facing seats on the R-10? That was major differences
enough. Were the 12's as fast? I never rode on a train of only R-12's. I only rode them when they were mixed with other cars, so I never knew how fast they could go.
01/14/2000
One thing comes to mind and that's that the R-10's had air operated doors, while the R-12/14's did not.
Bill Newkirk
A minor correction on the second R-10 fantrip date, which should be 06/08/1986 [not 1976], while the first and third (but final) ones are okay. Oops, my error!!!
-William A. Padron
I can vouch for the D line. I rode on a D train of R-10s once, in 1979 or 1980, from 59th St. all the way to the Bronx and back. Since the R-10s didn't have Brighton Beach signs on their original curtains, the destination curtain on that end was blank.
Even though they ran on every IND route over the course of their careers, I never saw the R-10s on the B, F, GG, or HH. Aside from the A, I rode them on the C/CC in addition to that one time on the D, and saw them on the E once during my last visit to the city before heading west to Colorado, on September 5, 1980.
I think I saw them once on the AA.
I rode them on the J but it wasn't called the J then. That was too long ago for you. I often wondered if they were ever used on the M, I'll bet they were.
Yes, the R-10's were operated on the BMT Eastern Division, as they were first placed there 1954-55 to simply have the operating personnel to be familiar with the SMEE-type packaging that was to come with the new 200-car R-16 type fleet to sent to those routes. As a matter of fact, I was just now reminded through an e-mail today that the last thirty cars, 3320-3349 (G.E.-equipped controls and motors), were all in place over on the BMT Eastern Division by this day 45 years ago.
The R-10's would eventually be seen during that brief period on the BMT Division's #14-Broadway Brooklyn, #15-Jamaica (often regularly) and #16-Canarsie lines, but I have no records or evidence (in the form of photographs) in they ever ran in service on the #10-Myrtle/Chambers route (although that fact would not surprised me if they did). According to NYCTA's car records, R-10 cars 3320-3349 were all said to be back on the IND division during the year 1959.
However, some R-10's were seen back on the BMT Eastern Division during the winter 1980-81 season, and I can recall seeing (and eventually riding) one train on the "LL" line. There was a sighting of one train operating on the "J" route, and I did witness one eight-car R-10 train in storage either at ENY or Canarsie Yard. However, they still had their only all-IND division roll sign curtains, so occasionally you probably see them with blank signs.
There are few of those R-10 images seen on the BMT lines in question on the illustrated car section of this web page for your browsing and enjoyment.
-William A. Padron
[voted by individuals of the ERA, UTC and this Subtalk board as "Mr. R-10"]
I have a snapshot of 3342 leading a train of R-10's around the sharp turn at Fulton and Crescent on Nov 1st 1954. This was supposedly the first day of R-10's carrying passengers on the run to 168th St. Even after all of the R16's were delivered, the R-10's lingered on, and I had several opportunities to ride them between Broad St and 168th St. until I left the city in 1957.
Oh I certainly saw them on the "F" back in 1981. Rode on it too. The only thing that was ever faster on the Queens Blvd express was R-6-2 #1233 and the other R-6-2 #1277. This R-10 SMOKED 'em between Union Tpke and Parsons. And the lead motor was #3080. I couldn't tell how fast it was going by the gear sounds, but by the feel of it, had to be 50MPH, perhaps a bit more. Steve B: NB. #1277: A-flat above Middle C (in the tunnel); #1233: A above Middle C (straightaway through Sutphin).
Wayne
01/13/2000
I rode and photgraphed the R-10's on the (D) & (F). That was an unusual treat indeed. Including a shot of a northbound entering, what else!, Newkirk Avenue.
Bill Newkirk
New Orleans built their own bodies on trucks/controls provided by CKD-Tatra.
Uhoh. I'm having a phantom Bluebird moment...........
Never mind a mini-fleet of R-10s. They should go for the gusto and bring out 400 of 'em, paint them teal and white with a narrow stripe at the belt rail, then assign them to the A line where they belong. On second thought, why stop at 400?
The guys who built the New Orleans "replica" trolleys is the Carrolton Shops of the RTA. Elmer von Dulan (the super) is pushing to have them build the 24 cars for Canal - and they just might do it!!
I mentioned Culver BUs (9th Avenue to Coney Island in the 1940s and eary 1950s in my post). I also mentioned West End C service--but were BUs used on the West End Shuttle after WWII? I only rode Cs--and recall being very surprised to discover they were the same car types as used on the Fulton L.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
If you recall there were only C-types on the West End Shuttle, I wouldn't doubt that. The abandonment of the Fulton L must have freed up a lot of equipment, since they couldn't shift it to Lex-Fulton.
Before we start ordering BUs, we should do some historical checking. Other than the Culver, was there ever any BU service into the current Stillwell terminal?
As I recall, the connections into Stillwell from the Brighton, Seach, and West End were all with Standards.
(I'm not talking about BUs into the pre-Stillwell West End Terminal or the West End C service.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
When I suggested this, I was replying to Alan Glick's post which read:
"I propose reopening Culver Depot and Sea Beach Palace for the duration. A trolley shuttle on Surf Avenue would be nice, too, but I don't want to get too greedy. ;-)
I do. Bring back the BU's. Also, when they rebuild Stillwell, make it a replica of Park Row."
Even better, rebuild Stillwell Terminal to copy the original West End Terminal. Then, along with Paul Matus's idea of rebuilding the Culver and Sea Beach Terminals, all we'd have to do would be to rebuild the Brighton Terminal and Hotel grounds and we'd have it all back again.
If I may be permitted to quote myself--
"Older is better than newer 'cause it was there first" -- Alan Glick
I>
And by the way, those BU's better have trolley poles for the portions of trackage that are at grade! If they don't, we will have to use steam engines.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And give back the #4 and #1 designations to the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach and not to those frauds up in the Bronx.
01/11/2000
Okay Sea Beach Fred, how about return the Dodgers to Brooklyn !!
Bill Newkirk
Tell you what Bill: You give me the Mets and I'll give you back the Dodgers. I'm a Mets fan.
My Dad's still waiting for the Giant's to return to NY!
Which Giants???
Both!
01/11/2000
"That's crappy. How are people supposed to get to Nathan's ?"
WALK!!! Rain, snow or sleet, You'll walk a mile to get to Nathan's !!
Bill Newkirk
Its only 4 blocks as I said
I've had report of this. The B divison train operator & conductors are scheduled to begin picking jobs for their spring pick on 1/31/00. The pick itself is scheduled to go into effect the beginning of April. The jobs should be posted about a week before. PLEASE BE PATIENT! As soon as we see what the jobs will do, we'll report if Stillwell will be closed or not and the service plans of the B/D/F/N and possible adjustments of the M & Q.
How does this sound? F trains terminate at Kings Hwy, with shuttle service to W 8th St. D's terminate at Ocean Parkway. Well..thats TWO of them.any guesses on the N anybody?? SERIOUSLY, I guess that means we will HAVE to have a "farewell to the Old Stillwell Ave terminal trip " Including, of course, a stop at Nathans....
"...we will HAVE to have a "farewell to the Old Stillwell Ave terminal trip " Including, of course, a stop at Nathans...."
Count me in! I'll have to arrange one of my NY trips to coincide with that. Can't believe that the old Stillwell Terminal will be no more.
A stop at Nathans of course, but even more importantly -- The Cyclone!
If Sea Beach Fred Comes, so will I??
I'll be there----just give me a month or so warning. It would be great to meet a bunch of you guys, but what I really want to see is a complete revamping and a new Stillwell Station, and a cleanup of the downstairs leading to Coney Island. A new Coney Island would mean great prestige for New York and would make us all young again. I'm all for that.
Me TOO, it s hard to get Frequent Flyer Miles out of Hawaii, all you Mainlanders come over here, so us Islanders have to make plans two months in advance.
So let's set a date. Again, I'll be in NY the weekend of April 29 and would like to do a tour on that date. We won't have to worry about very cold weather nor too hot a day.
<< "...we will HAVE to have a "farewell to the Old Stillwell Ave terminal trip " Including, of course, a stop at Nathans >>
May I suggest April 29? I'll be in NY that weekend and got jealous when I read about all the fun you guys/gals have on field trips. It would be great to have the opportunity to meet some of you on my next trip to NY.
My hope is for a date after May. That's when I get off work. I'd be able to make a trip to NY then. I'd love to get a chance to meet my fellow SubTalkers.
Alan Glick
May I suggest April 29?
That will be the 27th Anniversary of the end of Third Ave. El service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Is their not a date on the calender that isn't an anniversary of the city closing or demolishing some kind of rapid transit? Sad ...
Is their not a date on the calender that isn't an anniversary of the city closing or demolishing some kind of rapid transit? Sad ...
Yes, isn't it? the Culver Shuttle closed in May. There is probably something each month.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
N Trains will stop at 86 Street.
we will HAVE to have a "farewell to the Old Stillwell Ave terminal trip " Including, of course, a stop at Nathans....
Yes, yes, YES!! Any excuse for a Nathan's hot dog at the Stillwell Ave terminal!
And of course, a ride on the Cyclone (and maybe a moment of slience for the Norton's Point Trolley and the Thunderbolt roller coaster ....)
--Mark
With the upcoming rehab/rebuild of the Stillwell Avenue/ Coney Island station, I propose a walking tour of the facility. Tour will be combined with another SubTalk event on the same day which I am planning. I will first E-mail Dave to see if the idea is worth turning into a tour.
More info soon.
Mark W.
Good idea. On the IRT's birthday when I joined Wayne aka Slant 40, Steve aka 8th Ave Exp, Peggy Darlington & the former Sub-Dude (now back to his BMT self) their we found enough to be interesting for a quick walk through or as part of another trip. Make sure you see the IRT semifore (sp ?), yes the last one from the IRT was moved their and it's still lighted, but as a direction vs. functional.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston, since the IRT's birthday also happens to be mine (Oct.27), that would be me giving myself probably the best birthday present I've ever received.
Ok you organize it---anybody organizes it. If you do it, we'll come.
Please, can we make it on April 29? I'll be in NY that weekend and we love to get together with some of you fine folk to do the tour.
And the Parachutte Jump
Could we go for a Sunday? Or, perhaps, do it twice. One on a weekday and one on a Sunday?
Well what are you waiting for Mark? Organize it and we'll be there. I'm really getting exicited. Is this really for real?
Where would the "N" terminate? Why that's easy!!!Ditmars Blvd!!!
Ditmars Blvd. to Ditmars Blvd? Local or express? LOL
Isn't doing this over the summer a bit stupid? I know that ConeyIsland is only a mere shadow of it's former self, but it's still used by thousands of people to get to the beach. Fall/winter/spring would be a better time to close the terminal down.
I did some checking. The project is scheduled (at this point -- not in stone yet) to start in July 2001 and last for 42 months. The N will terminate at 86th Street the entire time, and the B will terminate at one platform or another at Stillwell Avenue the entire time. The D and the F will be cut back (Brighton Beach/Avenue X) at various times.
David
From a Station Agent's viewpoint:
We already picked the jobs for Janaury to July 2000. Coney island was not listed as "closing on ......"
We will pick again in Late March or April and of course I'll post any info.
Now **opinion**
What I think might happen is that they'll close one platform at a time- let's say the N to start with (and have the N stop on the B platform)
The F would have to end at anoher station due to track connectioons being absent and the D could switch to one N track. When they do the B platform the B would stop on the N Platform. Of course they might use the now abandoned trackway and connect to the D as a temporary measure
Only in New York will you find stupidity of this type--closing a beach resort terminal during the peak season. Some TA manager must be getting a bonus for another attack on the historical BMT.
Why can't it be done in the fall and spring?
It would be like closing a ski resort in December and January for rebuilding.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
It will take 3.5 years. No matter what, it will go through the summer. I think it's better to have a new one ready for an extra summer than the old one.
That sucks,
Get some Pics before letting them wreck it.
Maybe Now is the time for Disney to get involved with a Disney Coney Island Park...
Hey Mr. Real Sherman Cheung: I'm a Californian and I know that Disney owns the Angels and the Ducks. You see what inept bums they are? Do you really want Disney getting their hands on Coney Island? I'd give it Donald Trump.
Sea Beach Fred, You should see what Disneyt is doing to 42nd between 7 and 8th You will change your mind. The Angels and Ducks stank, before Disney, and I read they were up for sale anyway.
01/11/2000
The rebirth of 42nd St has given Disney some comments referring to a takeover of 42nd St. I disagree since the rebirth isn't totally finished yet. Let's wait and see when all if finished then judge. It's still a hell of a lot better when this was the sleaze strip back in the 70's. I remember walking from 7th to 8th Ave one evening (and made it alive!) back in the 70's and notice a store window with a display of switch blade knives! How nice, you can keep the old 42nd St.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, some 'sleaze' isn't all bad. For instance, Greenwich Village has a good amount of scuzy looking bars and clubs. It also has a number of shops selling questionable items (from switch blades and rolling paper to sex toys), but that adds to the character of the neighborhood. If alot of that were to be removed, the Village would indeed be a boring place to visit.
That's not to say that Times Square couldn't have used a clean up in the 70's (it was waaay out of control). However, the Disneyfication of Times Square will only turn 42nd Street into a boring shopping mall with overpriced Mickey Mouse watches and "Toy Story" T-shirts. I think there should be a way to retain some of the original "flavor" of Times Square w/o returning it to its smutty roots.
Doug aka BMTman
[some 'sleaze' isn't all bad. For instance, Greenwich Village has a good amount of scuzy looking bars and clubs. It also has a number of shops selling questionable items (from switch blades and rolling paper to sex toys), but that adds to the character of the neighborhood. If alot of that were to be removed, the Village would indeed be a boring place to visit]
There's sleaze, and then there's sleaze :-) What you see in Greenwich Village is at least in part a calculated attempt to draw in tourists. It guarantees that they'll have some interesting stories when they get back to Wichita or Knoxville ("My word, we walked in a store and they were selling whips and chains!") And nothing too bad's likely to happen to anyone walking through the area, even late at night.
The sleaze on the "old" 42nd Street was of a different kind entirely. For the most part, it was the genuine thing, resulting from the flight of legitimate businesses and a general atmosphere of decay. And it should go without saying that the area was anything but safe. Coney Island seems to be yet another variation. Based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the area, it's not so much sleazy as in a state of decline. Its atmosphere is one of poverty and of having been left behind by progress. As much as 42nd Street, maybe even more so, Coney Island metaphorically cries out for redevelopment. Almost any other use would be an improvement over the current state of affairs. No matter how sleazy it may seem (which, realistically, isn't much), Greenwich Village does not need redevelopment and would not benefit from it.
Some 'sleaze' isn't all bad...
Exactly. In the words of Chicago author Nelson Algren, "You will never truly love a city till you can love its alleys too." Just like how blue cheese needs a certain amount of fungus to make it what it is, every great city needs a certain amount of grit and sleaze to give it its unique character.
Otherwise, all cities would look like Main Street Disneyland. While that may be fine for some people, there will always be those of us who find much more beauty in the raw honesty of urban reality, warts and all.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
01/11/2000
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that I was supporting a "takeover" of 42nd St by Disney, that's just a small piece of this street. There will be other ventures opening that will make 42nd come alive and a become a generator of jobs, income and TAXES !!
The old sleaze was just that, a reflection of moral decay just congregating in one place. The sex shops and such found in the village doesn't seem sleazy to me, just wierd or left of center!
This area needed this boost badly, the old look was an enormous black eye to the city's image. Now why was a store selling switch blades needed. You don't think the tourists would buy one and return home and brag. Those switch blades where bought by low lifes who in turn used them against innocent victims.......Sleaze begets sleaze !!
Bill Newkirk
Warts are for toads, not frog princes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[In the words of Chicago author Nelson Algren, "You will never truly love a city till you can love its alleys too." Just like how blue cheese needs a certain amount of fungus to make it what it is, every great city needs a certain amount of grit and sleaze to give it its unique character.
Otherwise, all cities would look like Main Street Disneyland.]
You are correct, but see my posting elsewhere in this thread regarding "good" and "bad" sleaze. Coney Island today is a prime example of the latter. It doesn't display a gritty urban character - parts of the Lower East Side and the East Village arguably are New York's best examples of that - but rather a sense of abandonement, poverty and decay. There's nothing picturesque about that sort of sleaze.
An analogy to good-vs.-bad sleaze might be a woman with multiple tattoos. She's most likely either (a) a hip urban trendoid, or (b) a skank from the trailer camps. The outward manifestation might be the same, but the essential characters are very different. Ditto for sleaze.
OK, OK, I don't give a hoot in hell who revitalizes Coney Island, just let someone do it. Coney Island doesn't deserve to look the seedy place it does, and for the record, it still is my favorite haunt in New York City. A revived Coney Island would do wonders for New York. I don't think there can be any disagreement there.
[OK, OK, I don't give a hoot in hell who revitalizes Coney Island, just let someone do it. Coney Island doesn't deserve to look the seedy place it does, and for the record, it still is my favorite haunt in New York City. A revived Coney Island would do wonders for New York. I don't think there can be any disagreement there.]
No disagreement from me, that's for sure. What's difficult is trying to figure out who would redevelop Coney Island and for what purpose. A few things seem relatively evident:
1) An upgraded amusement park is basically a non-starter. The trend is toward mega-parks, of the Disney/Six Flags/Busch Gardens variety. I don't believe there's enough land in the Coney Island area for a mega-park, road capacity is insufficient (transit's relatively less important for that type of use), and the operating season probably would be too short.
2) Any redevelopment should be a strictly private undertaking. Government run or financed ventures take far too long and cost far too much. The city's sole role should be to back off and let private developers act without interference.
3) Whatever redevelopment occurs should be something that can take advantage of Coney Island's excellent transit connections.
I still think a large athletic and recreational center like Chelsea Piers would be the best idea. But no doubt there are other possibilities as well.
The New Steeplechase or Luna Park New home for the Brooklyn Mets and Jets of the National League and NFL
I don't believe there's enough land in the Coney Island area for a mega-park ..
Why a megapark? Look at all the Jersey Shore towns with boardwalks and small amusement areas that are thriving. They range in size from rather small (Point Pleasant) to quite large (Wildwood) with more "average" in between (Seaside Heights, Ocean City (NJ)). Why can't Coney Island be that way, too? It certainly WAS. You don't need a megapark to get people back to Coney Island.
--Mark
How big was Steeplechase Park or Luna Park. They were good size parks but still fit into Coney Island. Rebuild Steeplechase. The Parachutte Jump is still there. What else is on thge land???
[[I don't believe there's enough land in the Coney Island area for a mega-park ..]
[Why a megapark? Look at all the Jersey Shore towns with boardwalks and small amusement areas that are thriving. They range in size from rather small (Point Pleasant) to quite large (Wildwood) with more "average" in between (Seaside Heights, Ocean City (NJ)). Why can't Coney Island be that way, too? It certainly WAS. You don't need a megapark to get people back to Coney Island.]
I suppose a smaller Jersey Shore-style park would work. But that would make it harder to find a developer and operator, especially since all city subsidies and financing must be avoided (otherwise it would take decades to accomplish anything). Deep-pocketed developers like Disney, Six Flags or Anheuser-Busch, who could afford a massive redevelopment of Coney Island, are interested only in mega-parks.
Coney Island fills a need of inexpensive enterainment (beacvh, boardwalk, some rides) for those of lesser income ansd those without automobiles. A mega park would remove a source of inexpensive enterainment
I don't find Ride and Puke entertainment, entertaining at all, Everything in Coney Island are either commonplace in Moving Carnies and Fairs. I don't have a car either, So I can't drag myself over to Great Adventure across the River. We need a few good Coasters, Like Cedar Point, and some Disneyeque Attractions.
Coney Island fills a need of inexpensive enterainment (beacvh, boardwalk, some rides) for those of lesser income ansd those without automobiles. A mega park would remove a source of inexpensive enterainment
That would be like closing Central Park to the general public and making it an exclusive country club that you need to be a paying member of to use. Both Central Park and Coney Island are neither. Coney Island started out as a resort for the rich back in the Ninteenth Century, but as the Ninteenth Century came to a close, and the BRT made it accessible to the masses for a nickel fare, Coney Island became a place where the masses without much money or automotive transportation could find recreation and a beach to go to to go swimming. You can't let some Megabucks corporate monster like Disney take that away from the people. What's not needed is a casino, a resort for yuppies and worldwide tourists. Let Disney take that crap elsewhere. Disney should have left Orlando well enough alone also. That whole area is Disney. Orlando,FL should have been renemed Disney, FL.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wonder what sort of amusement park Donald Trump would have us enjoy?
and Yes, I hear you about Disney's Ineptness.
Babes in Toyland.
--Mark
RIM SHOT!!!
Fred, it's interesting you make the Coney Island-Trump connection. All those middle class co-ops located slightly northeast of Coney were built by the late Fred Trump, the Donald's father. Some say Trump Village rescued the whole area from the crime and poverty associated with the projects to the west.
The elder Trump was more of a champion for the middle and working class. The Donald, if given the chance, would try to make Coney another Atlantic City with all the benefits and libailities inherent.
Something like that already exists in the New York area, and it's called Six Flags Great Adventure. Coney Island is everything the suburban corporate theme parks are not: Affordable, accessible, spontaneous, unsanitized, urban, and decidedly genuine. Putting Coney Island under the watchful eye of Disney or some other mega-corporation would be the death of a truly unique place. Is a McNathan's what you really want?
Better to bulldoze the whole place in one swift blow and build a shopping center on the site (a la Chicago's old Riverview park) than allow Disney to rape it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
you should bull doze all of new york city
Tom: Do you want to become the John Rocker or the Al Sharpton of this website. Just keep talking crap like that.
And where does Tom Live, Next door to John Rocker in Bum Fck Georgia?
(Coney Island is everything corporate theme parks are not)
Yup, its mostly vacant, pays little if any property taxes to support city services, provides few jobs, and provides no place to go to the bathroom. The remaining stands and attractions, frankly, stink. Nathans? Aside from nostagia, lets think realistically. The prices are high, the fries are cold, the service is lousy, and there is nowhere to sit down. This is not what made Nathans Famous.
The private sector built the original Coney Island. It was the Disney of its day. Snobs abhorred it because it was commercial AND accessible. What's different isn't suburban theme parks, what's different is Jones Beach.
[Nathans? Aside from nostagia, lets think realistically. The prices are high, the fries are cold, the service is lousy, and there is nowhere to sit down. This is not what made Nathans Famous.]
Aside from the lack of seating, that pretty well describes any suburban Nathan's as well as the Coney Island flagship. Talk about high prices, you'd think you're getting pate de foie gras instead of a hot dog ...
As far as Coney Island is concerned, *something* should be done to rescue it from its current state (which indeed is a disgrace). It wouldn't be easy, but then again 10 years ago most people probably thought 42nd Street was a hopeless case too. One idea would be a multipurpose sports and recreational center along the lines of Chelsea Piers. That seemed like an unlikely venture at one point, being built on a derelict pier a long distance from the subway, yet it's now a smashing success.
Part of the problem with Coney Island, or rather, why it went downhill, was the water quality on the beaches there, which was the area's main attraction 100 years ago. All those stories of hypodermic needles, raw sewage and other trash floating up onto the beaches was one of the main reasons after World War II the place went into decline (suburbanization of the middle class being the other).
The government has banned dumping of trash in the Atlantic off the New York-New Jersey coast since July, 1992, so hopefully that problem is improving, but it's going to take a while to turn around the image of the place as one where only fools go in the water. A safe beach, combined with a minor league park and other new buisnesses could definitely work at Coney Island (though if you really want to pump money in there, just legalize gambling south of Coney Island Creek. You're crime and prostitution would get worse, but boy would that place look different five years from now)
Legalize prostitution, it won't be such a problem.
Legalize prostitution, it won't be such a problem.
It will only spread more AIDS. I also believe it will bring more crime, just like gambling brought more crime to Atlantic City. Besides, I don't think the Mafia would tolerate legalized prostitution. Why do you think recreational drugs were not legalized? The crime bosses wouldn't tolerate it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Untrue, a regulated system would require protection, it would actually COUNTER the spread of HIV.
Untrue, a regulated system would require protection, it would actually COUNTER the spread of HIV.
The Mafia will never permit it. Neither will Rudy.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Build a New Major League Park there, The Brooklyn Mets, and move the Minor League team into Shea. I did not like the Brooklyn Dodgers, but the Brooklyn Mets. Bring back dem bums.
Are the Mets still serious about building a new ballpark? And if they have, have they decided on a location? Think of what a Big League ballpark in Coney Island could do for the area. Just a thought.
If you build a new stadium for the Mets, you need a new one for the Yanks. They should stay in the Bronx, the hell with where Rudy wants it, He will be only around another year or 2.
The new stadium will be in a current Shea parking lot.
It's supposed to have a retractable FIELD, never mind the roof.
That's what Brooklyn Borough President Howard Golden was pushing until Rudy G. got wind of it and came up with his alternate plan: Minor League team at the Parade Grounds.
Doug aka BMTman
Good point Dave. Coney Island should be somehow designated a "National Historic Site" to preserve what's left of it. I agree with you that if some mega-corp were to come in there the place would never be the same. The Coney Island we now know would only exist in folk lore and as pictures in a library book (you could never take your kid there and say, "see, this is what one of the original amusement parks was like when I was your age.")
Coney SHOULD be made a National Treasure (granted there isn't much left from it's early years).
Doug aka BMTman
Good point Dave. Coney Island should be somehow designated a "National Historic Site" to preserve what's left of it. I agree with you that if some mega-corp were to come in there the place would never be the same. The Coney Island we now know would only exist in folk lore and as pictures in a library book (you could never take your kid there and say, "see, this is what one of the original amusement parks was like when I was your age.")
Coney SHOULD be made a National Treasure (granted there isn't much left from it's early years).
Doug aka BMTman
I agree. My parents experienced Coney Island in their youth. I experienced it in my youth. If Disney gets its hands on it, the next generation will be experiencing Disneyland East or Disneyworld North.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If Disney gets its hands on it, it won't make much difference. There isn't much left worth saving. Coney has gone the way of Asbury Park and surrounding areas on the Jersey Shore.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[If Disney gets its hands on it, it won't make much difference. There isn't much left worth saving. Coney has gone the way of Asbury Park and surrounding areas on the Jersey Shore.]
What memories come flooding back ...
Last August, I had several hours to kill in New Jersey, while my stepdaughter and her friend were attending a concert at the PNC Center, so I decided to do some exploration of the shore area. Most of the area seemed quite nice and there was a good deal of new construction in progress.
And then I drove into Asbury Park. For a moment there, I thought I had been teleported back to post-bomb Hiroshima. Overgrown vacant lots were dotted here and there with decaying abandoned buildings. What looked like a large apartment building or hotel under construction turned out, on closer inspection, to have been abandoned years earlier after the concrete framework had been poured. A large arcade or similar building on the boardwalk was boarded up and utterly forlorn-looking. On what seemed to be the main street of the business district, at least half of the storefronts were vacant. Altogether, Asbury Park was a thoroughly dismal place.
I suspect that the arcade you saw was the Palace Amusements. It's been vacant since 1989, I believe. Tillie, the face painted on the side of the building, is the subject of a major effort to preserve her - the building is unstable and slated for demolition. I know the concrete structure you're talking about also; don't know what it was intended to be. Several members of the Asbury Park Police Department have been indicted for corruption over the past four years, including one of the chiefs and most of the upper echelon; four members of the school board have either been indicted or sent to jail during the past year. Long Branch, just a short distance to the north, has experienced similar problems with community development, but at least the police and school board have kept their noses clean. Only the ridiculously rich areas like Rumson (home of Geraldo, Dan Rather, and others) have escaped any major problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh man, Thats not the Asbury Park I remember 13 years ago, How time flys.
Leagalize Gambling, build a few Casinos, the subway to casinos, sounds good to me
Not completely true. Coney Island still has three items of attraction: The Cyclone, The Wonder Wheel and The Parachute Jump.
Though the Parachute Jump has long been "decommissioned", nevertheless it is a world-famous site (much like Lady Liberty) and people walk the boardwalk and marvel at it.
To this day -- with high-tech amusement rides -- many experts still rate The Cyclone as one of the world's greatest rollercoasters.
The Wonder Wheel is also a long-time ride that is synonymous with Coney Island memories.
IF some mega-corp were to buy up Coney Island, they'd be wise to leave these three attractions as a connection to Coney's past.
Doug aka BMTman
Last time I Rode Cyclone (Summer '99), destroyed my back for 3 weeks. Stll fun though. Though the Circus/Fair Ride and Puke Amusements have got to go, need something tamer....Like an Epcot attraction.
01/12/2000
I see you misspelled "Park" on your last post. Was that a result of your ride on the Cyclone ??
Bill Newkirk
I did spell it correctly, I call it Ride and Puke, or spin and puke amusements. Since thats what Astroland and that other one specializes in.
The Cyclone was a great one, the first drop was what did my back in, and then I had to worry about my glasses flying off to the west 8th street elevated station. nvertheless, the Cylone had to be ridden maybe 4 times in your lifetime. Overall it was great, just brace yourself for that first drop.
Brace yourself for that first drop? Au contraire. Be like me. Raise your arms, lean forward into the bar (trust me it won't open, and it will hold you in place)and you'll feel like Superman soaring horizontally into space. If the Stillwell tour will be held after May, I'll show you how. Then we can have some Nathans fries which, contrary to a previous post, are never cold.
I had my Cyclone ride once when I was 7, my older brother took me on it, and in the first car. I was scared so much I wet my pants. I refuse to ride another one since. No way Jose, my mind is made up/
Bob, Remember the "Leave It To Beaver" episode "Gus & the Net"? where Beaver was afraid to ride the roller coaster. That was my incentive to ride the first cyclone. I rode the Thunderbolt, Log Flume, and the Wonder Wheel that same day. However my favorite ride in Coney Island is at the N/E C/O Surf and Stillwell. It was really my favorite when they had R1-9's and Standards.
Nope Jeff, I still won t ride it, by the way did you watch one of the TV News Magazine Shows this past few days on Roller Coasters. I have been upside down of A-10s and some naval planes but I felt safter then then on a Roller Coaster.
I see the field trip's name: "Subtalk Rides The Cyclone" .....
--Mark
How does Ride'n'Ralph sound? I personally don't care for roller coasters. If I want thrills, I'll take a southbound A train from 59th St.
The Cyclone IS the greatest roller coaster in existence. They have built some new great ones and I've ridden on most of them, but if given a choice of any to ride, the Cyclone is the king. That should be made a national monument.
The Cyclone IS the greatest roller coaster in existence. They have built some new great ones and I've ridden on most of them, but if given a choice of any to ride, the Cyclone is the king. That should be made a national monument.
I think it already is.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/12/2000
If some mega corp bought these attractions, couldn't they be designated landmarks first so they won't be demolished. Between 42nd St and Coney island, there has been a lot of talk about Disney and mega corps and their big bucks moving in and putting their spin on the area in question. If the mega corps and their big bucks don't invest in the area and rebuild it so the people return, who will?
I don't think the tourists will flock there to see and photograph what remains of the famous attractions (Steeplechase etc.). Coney Island is ripe for a rebirth, as a kid that was and still is a place of fond memories for me. I hope the rebuilding of Stillwell Terminal signals the renaissance of Coney Island.
BTW- I am not a fan or stock holder of Disney.
Bill Newkirk
What I had liked was the idea of the Kansas Fried Chicken owner rebuilding the Steeplechase Park, but he had so much trouble trying to do that that the park is now slated for a sports arena— again. I guess this was a small corporation, and they jut didn't have the power to do it. I wish Disney or 6 Flags (Time Warner) or anyone else had come and did there what they did to Times Sq. A revitalized Steeplechase would have been the anchor for a revitalization of the whole strip, of course, without threatening the famous landmark rides.
But, of course Disney isn't below destroying their own Amusements, this past Christmas, I was in WDW, I went to Epcot and they closed down "Horizons" one of my favorite Pavillions.
In Magic Kingdom, they discontinued the Skyway to Fantasyland/Tommorrowland, they Discontinued "Mr. Toads Wild Ride" and replaced it with the "Pooh Bear" ride, They also closed the "20k leagues under the Sea" Submarine ride.
Instead of a Forgotten New York webpage, I've found a Forgotten Disney World webpage.
With all of the discontinued Rides we can easily make a Disney Nostalgia Park in Coney Island.
(Discontinued Disney rides)
Glad I caught the Skyway before it was gone. But the Pooh Bear ride was one of my kids favorites.
Glad "Its a Small World" was still there. I saw it at the '64 Worlds Fair when I was 4 years old, and still remember it.
Ah, which reminds me, The "Carousel of Progress" another Highlight of the '64 Worlds Fair is due to be Abandoned and retired. Glad I got to see it last time around.
The original "its a Small World" is in Disneyland. That I think would stay, Customers would raise Holy Hell if that were to be discontinued.
Disney closes down a lot of the rides, to upgrade to newer themes, As to Small World. I refuse to get near the ride. I was stuck for 45 minutes on it back in the 60s, when something broke in Disneyland, and all I heard was that damn song. Its A Small World After all. When I lived in LA, I always went to Disneyland at least once a year, and always enjoyed it. By the way. Universal in LA raised their rates to over $40.00 admission. It will be a stop on the Red Line.
Rehab the Thunderbolt and then you have four.
Include Nathan's and you have five.
--Mark
Rehab the Thunderbolt and then you have four.
Include Nathan's and you have five.
You forgot #6 - Stillwell Terminal. Coney Island isn't Coney Island without Stillwell Terminal (old or new).
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I would love to come, but the only time I will be able to be in NYC is in May when I change planes at even Eastbound I have 7 hours. Q 10 to F, F to Coney Island, or maybe change to B in Manhatten. Have lunch at Nathans. D or Q to Prospect Park, S to Franklin/Fulton C and A to Howard Beach then bus back to TWA
If Disney gets its hands on it, it won't make much difference. There isn't much left worth saving...
My first visit to Coney Island was on a hot summer Friday night during one of my first visits ever to New York City. After stepping out of the subway terminal and passing by all the tacky merchandise displays, I grabbed a couple hot dogs and some lemonade at Nathan's, rode the Cyclone a couple times and spent most of my time walking along the boardwalk and around the amusement parks. The place was packed with people and full of noise and music. Merchants and food vendors were hawking their products, and carnival operators were yelling out and daring me to try my luck on the games. A band was playing on the boardwalk with a large crowd gathered around -- a number of people were even dancing. After a while I grabbed a bag of cotton candy and allowed myself to get lost in all the lights, smells and sounds: The roar of the Cyclone over its ancient wooden trestle, the blur of multi-colored lights all around, the squeal of the trains up on the nearby el, all the bells and whistles of the midway... It was one of the few times in my memory where I really felt like a kid, and it's a feeling that I would give anything to find again.
Lest you think I'm talking about some distant childhood past, I should point out that the year was 1999, not even six months ago. I was 24 years old at the time. I've been to many theme parks across the country, but I'd take Coney Island over any of them anytime; places like Coney are a truly unique breed and are worth every possible effort to save.
Yes, the place has more than its share of filth and squalor. I felt fairly safe in the park itself, but I wouldn't have wanted to venture more than a block or so in any direction beyond. It is clear that Coney Island has seen much better days; the sight of the Thunderbolt all rusted and covered with vines broke my heart, even though I am not a native New Yorker and this was only my first visit to the park.
What to do with Coney Island? The two paths of least resistance have already been discussed here:
A) Hand it over to Disney or some other mega-corporation and let them have their way with it.
B) Allow it to continue its decline and eventually die a natural death.
Of course these are the most obvious choices, because they allow people to wash their hands of the whole matter without requiring any fresh ideas or creativity. There must be a better way.
Tell you what: When Rudy heads off to the Senate next year and appoints me mayor of New York City, here's a few ideas I'd like to try out for starters:
1) As has already been discussed here, rebuild the Stillwell Avenue subway terminal. Coney Island deserves a better gateway than what's there now. But I wouldn't try to replicate the West End Terminal, as somebody else suggested. I'd hire a forward-looking architect such as Frank Gehry or Santiago Calatrava, somebody who can give Coney Island a gateway appropriate for the 21st Century rather than trying to rehash the past.
This may sound incredibly idealistic, but who is to say that Coney Island's heyday was in the 1920's? Is it possible that its best days are yet to be seen?
2) A minor-league ballpark and a public aquarium would be perfect for the area. Build 'em.
3) Put the Park District in charge of upkeep of the overall park, and have them lease out parcels of land to individual operators such as Astroland, etc. for a nominal rent. Conditions: All attractions remain on a pay-as-you-go basis as they are now (This keeps the park open to the public and not just to those who can afford an entry fee), and no single operator can lease more than, say, 25% of the park. Disney wants to move in? Fine, but they won't be the only game in town.
4) Restore / rebuild the Thunderbolt and the Parachute Drop. They, along with the Cyclone and Nathan's should be given landmark status if they haven't already been given it.
5) Nathan's would serve Vienna Beef hot dogs!! Maybe I could even persuade Chicago's Gino's East Pizzeria to open a New York outpost on the Coney Island boardwalk, and show you New Yorkers how a real pizza is made. :-)
What if my new Coney Island doesn't make a profit? I doubt Central Park makes much of a profit either, but New York wouldn't be New York without it. Some things in this world are worth more than just a bottom line. Would the earth crash into the sun if Coney Island were to shut down tomorrow? No, but I know my days wouldn't be quite as bright without a place like that to return to.
It's been over 30 years since Chicago's legendary Riverview amusement park abruptly shut down and a shopping center was built on its site. Riverview's absence still leaves a void that can be felt even by those of us who weren't even born 30 years ago. Coney Island deserves a better fate than that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Maybe I could even persuade Chicago's Gino's East Pizzeria to open a New York outpost on the Coney Island boardwalk, and show you New Yorkers how a real pizza is made
There is no pizza like New York pizza.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And No Hot Dogs like Nathans, Stay in Chicago. The only good places to eat in Chicago are a couple of Steak Houses, but in New York, 3 of the top 10 Steak Houses are in NYC including one in Brooklyn, and we have New York has real Sea Food. Any winning Baseball teams, and now Basketball Teams, since Michael retired, Scotty went away and Phil is in LA.
01/12/2000
You really know New York is the real home to Pizza by the fact that in most areas you can't go one block without running into a pizzeria !
I have yet to bite into a bad slice of pizza, didn't Pizza Hut have a campaign recently boasting about their "Big New Yorker" pizza ?
Bill Newkirk
I have yet to bite into a bad slice of pizza, didn't Pizza Hut have a campaign recently boasting about their "Big New Yorker" pizza ?
Pizza Hut?? You've got to be kidding. Pizza Hut is nothing like the New York Style pizza. There are a few authentic NY style pizza places here in South Florida. There's Antonio's and Mario's. The only reason why their pizza is just like back home is because they "import" the dough and the sauce from NY. The water here is terrible. It is not conducive to making good pizza. That's why you can't get a decent bagel here either. Who ever needed a water filter in NYC? I need one here. Its either a water filter or bottled water. The stuff out of the tap is highly clorinated and tastes like pool water. In Miami proper, the water has a slight yellow tinge. Besides the recipe, the water may very well be the secret to good old New York style pizza.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If we're going to start discussing the various culinary delights of local fast food, I'd like to stick my two cents in (make that two cents plain in) as an ex-New Yorker who has lived in Chicago for some 30-odd years.
Yes, I agree that there is nothing like New York Pizza, but, on the other hand, Chicago style deep dish pizza (invented locally at Pizzeria Uno, now a national chain) is also a classic, and very different. Also, the stuffed pizza was invented in Chicago, and I know of at least 3 Chicago pizza places which claim the distinction of having invented it. I personally like all kinds of pizza, and do enjoy a real New York style pizza when I'm there, but I also like a good Chicago deep dish pizza.
As for hot dogs, the Chicago style hot dog (or Polish sausage), on a bun with a full salad on top (and never ketchup) is a horse of a different color. Certainly very different from the "dog on a bun with mustard and sauerkraut" that they serve in New York. And you can certainly make a good Chicago sytle dog with a (New York) Hebrew National frank, or a serve up a Chicago (Vienna Beef or Best Kosher) frank New York style. I'll take my Polish Chicago style.
And, if you're visiting Chicago, don't forget to try the Italian beef sandwiches (Portillo's is my favorite, with hot peppers), the ribs and the Greek restaraunts.
-- Ed Sachs
MMMMM, Chicago Deeeeeeeeeep Dish, Please Please whimper whimper don't get me started on Chicago Deep Dish, I live in a area where there is no Pizzeria Uno franchise. And your getting me Hungry.
anyway,
Yes, I do like Deep Dish Style pizzas, I grew to love it, in South Bend, Indiana; There was this Franchise called Godfathers Pizza, You live in Chicago right, do they still have one of those? The one in South Bend Closed. If you do have one do you mind ordering a Pizza Pie for me? and send it to New York.
Hey guys since were on a food tour. How about our South Philly chesse steaks? You have to admit there pretty good of course I don't know how healthy they are for you.
Philly Cheese are really healthy for you, they put meat on you, help you keep warm and all fuzzy inside, its especially good during the wintertime. Gotta stop thinking if its healthy or not healthy, enjoy life, eat what you want.
While I no longer partake, the best hot dogs on the planet are Hofmann's franks SYRACUSE IS THE REAL HOT DOG CAPITAL "Since 1879, taste tells"
While Hot Dogs and Pizzas and Philly Cheese steaks are Great, I would always gravitate towards a Gyro!, heaping with Lamb and Beef, Tzatziki Sauce freshly prepared Pita bread...
Um, if you remember what I said about the Philly Cheesesteaks, The Gyros also apply.
OK OK OK enough of the food competition. I'm in the Navy and have had the proud ditinction to be stationed in the Chicagoland area and also spent time in Philly. Why not take the best of what each city specializes in and make one nice eatery in Coney Island. As for Godfather's Pizza, I really didn't care for them or Sbarro's as well. Now a good Sabrett frank can do me good right aout now here in Virginia. Happy Y2K to all!!
Want me to send one to you? (Sabrett Hot Dogs)
My, my, my, look what I started... :-)
Item #5 on my "wish list" for Coney Island was meant to be in jest, but I apparently struck quite a nerve!
My posting last night was written soon after finishing off a massive slab of Bacino's stuffed pizza, so you could say my judgement was somewhat clouded. But to be completely honest, I still prefer Chicago's pizza over New Yorks's anytime. NYC may have a pizza parlor on every street corner, but I'd be willing to bet people aren't lined up outside in sub-freezing weather for 45 minutes to get a slice. :-)
But I know of several people, even here in Chicago, who swear by New York style pizza, so maybe I just wasn't trying the right places when I was in town. To me, it all tasted like cardboard with ketchup on it. Any suggestions from the locals as to the best pizza New York has to offer? I'll be sure to drop by the top pick during my next visit to NYC and re-visit my evaluation.
I like Gonzo's idea of simply finding the best every city has to offer and putting them together in one place. Gino's East Pizza and Vienna Beef hot dogs from Chicago, Skyline Chili from Cincinnati, Nathan's of course, and it wouldn't be complete without a good gyros stand and a Philly cheesesteak place... Behold, The House of Grease! The best part is, all that grease can be shipped across the street for use as lubricant at the Coney Island shops complex. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Come to Hawaii and Try what the call a plate lunch. My favorite is a good 1/3 pound hamberger patty, with gooey thick onion flavored gravy, 1 or 2 scoops of hot white rice and a side of potato salad all under $5.00, Instead of the hamburger, there is Terri Chicken Breast, Thin Teri Beef or the Philippino favoriet A thick slice of Spam.
"but I'd be willing to bet people aren't lined up outside in sub-freezing weather for 45 minutes to get a slice. :-)"
BECAUSE there are so many pizzerias, why would anybody wait 45 minutes when you can walk down the street and get one without a line?
fattening !!! I AM TRYING TO LOOSE WEIGHT !!
The best thing to watch is all the Asians putting their food on a Bagel to make a sandwich. You would not believe on what they do.
NO WAY......You haven't LIVED until youve had a Rochester white hot from Zweigles, has to tasted to be belived! Especially when its part of a garbage plate at Nick Tahous..mmmmmm!
Philly Cheese are really healthy for you, they put meat on you, help you keep warm and all fuzzy inside, its especially good during the wintertime. Gotta stop thinking if its healthy or not healthy, enjoy life, eat what you want.
For me that's not possible anymore. I'm on hypertention medication and I also have high cholesterol. I have to watch my salt, fat and cholesterol intake. Life sucks. I really like my food also. I'm not going to say that I don't have any foods that I'm not supposed to have. I just don't have them that often. Others are health-conscious even though they have no health problems. That's not the case with me. I have to watch what I eat. My father died of heart problems, as well as all his siblings, and my mother also has hypertention, so I guess I know how I'm going.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Sherman, thats all well and good until you find you have a 90% blockage in an artery!!
You're right, but, My family doesn't have a history of heart problems. So I could afford to do it, up to a point.
Lucky! Wish I could say the same. But damn the doctors, bring on the grease!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now I know why I get dirty looks when I tell people I'm still at my high school weight.
Hey, if I don't stay at my high school weight, then I'll weigh over 83 kilograms
I don't want that.
Which do you like better? Pats or Genos? MY stepbrother used live down in Philly, and the first strop when I got there was ALWAYS Pat's...
Godfather's went out of business in the mid-80s after becoming Pantera Pizza for a brief period of time. It's nice to hear South Bend mentioned. I'm a South Bend native myself, although we left for New Jersey in April of 1967. Where was the one in South Bend? I still know my way around town, even though downtown isn't anything like the way I remember it in the 60s.
I like New York-style pizza myself. Living back east for 13 years will do that to you. We have a chain of Cozzoli's pizzerias in Denver, most of which are located in shopping malls, which feature New York-style pizza. One even has a large subway wall map prominently displayed.
Hey what about Chinese food? I've always wondered how styles differed between Manhattan's Chinatown, Flushing, and Sunset Park.
When I took the N over to Sunset Park I saw a lot of great Cantonese resteruants there. Flushing really doesn't have any classic (Cantonese)Chinese food places.
My favorite Chinese resteruant is a place called Kwong Ming over in Wantagh on Jerusalem ave. It's been there for over 20 years. The fried rice is sweet and smooth, yet not too greasy with plentiful amounts of delicious roast pork. They also have the best fried noodles around.
I miss the way the 7 train station in Flushing smelled like Chinese food. It don't anymore, perhaps it has to do with the remodel or that there seems to be less chinese food markets and resteruants in Flushing.
01/13/2000
This post must have set a record for the most stomachs growling in unison ! Together, they must sound like a ten car train of R-1=9's !!
Bill Newkirk
Now, if our stomachs could imitate the brake and door sounds, we'd be all set!:)
the Chicago style hot dog (or Polish sausage), on a bun with a full salad on top (and never ketchup) is a horse of a different color.
Sounds like Toronto. A vendor on nearly every street corner. Huge dogs. Very good, too. Even the fat free ones! And the topings you can get on them seemed limitless!
--Mark
You will not find deep dish pizza in Italy. My cousin went there a couple of months ago, she grew up in Brooklyn and has been living in Oak Park Il for 20 years now. She said NY Style is closed to Italian then Chicago Deep Dish. In Rome, Naples and Venice where she ate some, the crust is real thin, lots of cheese and sauce. Here In Hawaii Forget, there is a place near me that is close to NY Style, the owner is from South Philly, but the rest of the stuff is the Pizza Hut, Dominos Little Ceaser crap. Give me a New York Deli and Pizza any day. Whenever I am in Manhatten. At lunch time I catch the train to West 4th St, go to a small Pizza Place on the Southeast Corner of McDougal and Bleerker and Pig out.
Is that Ben's Pizzeria? I thought I passed it by going to visit my Cousin down the street at 118 MacDougal.
I don t remember the name. it was just on the SE Corner
David--- What you described of your visit to Coney Island and the sights, sounds, foods, and feel of the place and the feeling of being a child again was
very poetic. You enjoyed yourself that evening.
Coney Island does have a world class aquarium. As far as Coney Island turning a profit-- I assume that most of the people who run the amusement rides and games and food stands do well in the summer. I'm not sure it turns up on any bottom line that is reported in the Financial Times, but in some ways I'd rather see the money going into small people's pockets than into the pockets of the large companies that are so ably screwing this country.
I'm not sure that having Stillwell Avenue Terminal turned into a gleaming gateway to Coney Island is really going to change the problems in Coney Island. You have spoken of the eventual death of Coney Island, but it many ways I think it is in better shape than it was in the 60's and 70's, when I think there was a much greater crime and gang and drug problem.
The Coney Island Beach has served millions and millions of people throughout the years. For many families it is a subway ride from the oppressive heat of the summer in the city to the freedom of the ocean and beach. Few of these people are yuppies, upper middle class, or ordinary middle class. I'd be interested to hear what these ordinary working people think would be improvements to Coney Island.
Over the last 5 or so years, a major project by the Federal government, brought back tremendous amounts of beach by resanding it. They raised the level of the beach by many many feet in height, and in area they lengthened it tremendously. The city has invested big money over recent years rebuilding sections of the boardwalk. There are major housing developments slightly east of Stillwell Avenue that provide housing for the middle class. Trump, Luna Park, Warbasse...
Once again, your description of your experience walking about Coney Island and the feelings it engendered in you speak well of the vitality of the place.
When I was back in the City. I took the B from 34th Street, hogged the railfan window all the way to Coney Island. Ate 2-3 Nathans Hot Dogs, Miss their old Orangeade, walked up to the boardwalk, sat and relaxed. Beautiful weekday, clear and sunny. Went into a souveneer shop that sells T shirts. Spent about 60.00 dollars on Brooklyn/Coney Island and even a Steeplechase T Shirts. Walked along the boardwalk to West 8th St, passed old Astroland. Went on The Wonderwheel, took loads of pictures, go off, went to Carvels Had a great Frozen Custard. Listened to the Carousel, spent a good 3 hours there. remembering my childhood. When on a Tuesday night my dad would take me, my brother and a couple of friends to watch the fireworks over the ocean. Really wished that Steeplechase was still open. Yes the Station and the area needs revitalization. Maybe a lux. hotel and casino or 2 to knock out Atlantic City. As I stated before in a previous post take the subway to your Favorite Casino at Brighton Beach.(Rockaway Too)
Hey Bob, no offense but lets keep the casinos away, FAR, FAR AWAY!!! Atlantic City and Foxwood are close enough, too close if you ask me!!! We don't need a million compulsive gamblers in NY to add to the crackheads. And besides, casinos would just be another nail in the coffin to 2 of my favorite NY recreational places, Aqueduct and Belmont Pk. However a racetrack in Coney Island like the one in the 1800's would be nice.
Yeh Jeff, but look at all the tax money it would bring in, and take it away from New Jersey. You may even get newer equipment for the PD too, Have the tax money go for the following 1-Education. 2-Public Health 3-Public Transit
Yeh Jeff, but look at all the tax money it would bring in, and take it away from New Jersey. You may even get newer equipment for the PD too, Have the tax money go for the following 1-Education. 2-Public Health 3-Public Transit
And more organized crime. Wherever there is casino gambling, the Mafia owns it and runs it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not any more. Look at Vegas it is owned by the big megga corps like Hilton, Starwood. The problem is there is more crime in Vegas because the Mob does not own run the place anymore. A lot of street gangs drive up to Vegas hold up casino windows, and get away. That would not of happened if the Mob still ran the town.
Whether the casinos are run by the original mob or the mega corporation mob they are still crooks. Stealing from all the patrons that go there. At least at the track you are betting against the other patrons, the house (and state) just takes a cut. You can conceiveably have an advantage in the odds, something a casino owner would never give you. Besides, you're outdoors in the grandstand with a hot dog and a beer just like a ballgame. Not a gigantic smokefilled room.
Hey Jeff I have the perfect race track to you. Charles Town West Virginia, about 60 miles West of D.C. Place you bets, then while waiting for the horses to run play the slots.
I too was surprised that Coney Island wasn't as bad as I had heard. Im 46 yrs old. When I was a kid I often went to Coney Is. with my parents or relatives. When I was in my teens my grandparents moved to a bldg right next to the VanSicklen Station on the "F". I visited often and always walked to Coney Island. (Once I walked north and actually saw a S.Bklyn RR train pulled by a diesel on MacDonald Av. Up to then I always thought it was trolley tracks!) I loved C.I. and went on the Cyclone, the Wonder Wheel, and the Thunderbolt many times. As an adult I rarely went to C.I. The only exceptions was an occasional police detail there or a stop at Nathans while passing by on the Belt. (My motorcycle club always stops for hot dogs there while going from the Verrazano to Long Island on trips)
Well this year I took my wife and 3 yr old son Arthur to the Aquarium. I had no intention to go to the amusements. However with admission they gave us each a free ticket to the Wonder Wheel. We used them after the Aquarium and then walked to Nathans. It was my first Wonder Wheel ride in 30 yrs and boy did it bring back memories. Coney Is. wasn't that much worse than it was 30 yrs ago. I expected a ghost town but it wasn't. It was actually crowded. Two weeks later I took Arthur back to Coney Island (without mom) but this time by train-LIRR to Flatbush-Brighton to W.8- West End back to the LIRR.
As an aside, we also went to Rye Playland last summer (on the way back from Branford Trolley Museum) to escape the bumper to bumper traffic on I95 and that place was also very vibrant!!! Too bad theres no more Palisades!!!
People also forget Rockaway Playland too
It's gone except for the signs at the station there.
I remember it of course. You could see it from the IND. I was just talking about where I went last summer on that posting. On Long Island there's a nice amusement park called Adventureland on Rt 110. Years ago as a kid my parents used to take us to a place called Jolley Rogers in Bethpage at the c/o Hicksville Rd & Hempstead Tnpk. It was mostly a kiddy park but I had great childhood memories of it. How about the Oceanside Nathans? Also when I was very little my aunt used to take us to Steeplechase.
Oh, man, Palisades - what a place! I tell Denverites that Palisades was bigger than Lakeside and Elitch's combined. The view of Manhattan from the Sky Ride was priceless. I never did go there after the monorail went up during its final years of operation, though. The real estate developers must have made an offer no one could refuse. I heard at the time that Palisades would relocate in Sussex County, but that never happened.
The biggest problem with Coney Island's future is its past. People object to anything other than what used to be there 50 years ago, and anything that might make a profit. As if they built the parthenon out there in the 1900 to 1920 period and did not make a profit. So the land sits idle, zoned for nothing but amusement parks, "protected" until there is enough push and money to build more subsidized housing.
I've tried to get people to consider rezoning the area. I get the bureaucrats' mantra -- why bother? No one in Brooklyn wants private jobs anyway. Brooklyn politicians want government jobs, non-profit jobs supported by government spending and welfare without workfare. Anything else generates traffic. Where will the money come from? Somewhere else.
If we are talking about the future, you have to ask the question, what does Brooklyn need? Compared with its population and income, and the number of jobs it had 30 years ago, just about everything. Hotels, supermarkets, catering halls where people can hold parties, health clubs, department stores, theaters. Employment is way down, and low relative to income, in all these categories. Brooklyn has less waterfront recreation (marina etc) employment per $ million of its residents' income than the national average, even though most of the nation doesn't have an ocean next to it.
In its heyday, Coney Island had all kinds of entertainment and one million square feet of retail. You couldn't put anything like that there today without a zillion dollar Environmental Impact Statement and years of litigation. I'd be happy to see one of Disney's indoor entertainment centers there -- it would operate year round, unlike the outdoor amusement parks that are open three months per year. The indoor sportsplex would have been nice. Giuliani killed it, so Brooklyn pols want to kill his minor league baseball stadium in return. Rumour has it the Aquarium wants to pull out, further "protecting" the community.
The subsidized housing groups are really good at working the process. That's what you'll get there in the end. Any of you well connected enough to get waterfront housing on the cheap? You can always go on public assistance, on the grounds that there are no jobs in Coney Island.
[I've tried to get people to consider rezoning the area. I get the bureaucrats' mantra -- why bother? No one in Brooklyn wants private jobs anyway. Brooklyn politicians want government jobs, non-profit jobs supported by government spending and welfare without workfare. Anything else generates traffic. Where will the money come from? Somewhere else.]
Note that the politicians avoid saying just where this "somewhere else" is. If they expect the rest of the city and especially the state to pick up the tab, they're sorely mistaken. And as far as the rest of the country is concerned - well, just imagine the reaction you'd get if you asked a typical taxpayer in, say, Virginia or Colorado if he or she would mind paying more federal income tax to bail out Brooklyn.
[If we are talking about the future, you have to ask the question, what does Brooklyn need? Compared with its population and income, and the number of jobs it had 30 years ago, just about everything. Hotels, supermarkets, catering halls where people can hold parties, health clubs, department stores, theaters. Employment is way down, and low relative to income, in all these categories. Brooklyn has less waterfront recreation (marina etc) employment per $ million of its
residents' income than the national average, even though most of the nation doesn't have an ocean next to it.]
Brooklyn's actually been quite lucky so far. It's managed to hold onto some of its middle-class population base after the initial rush of suburbanization in the postwar years. And more recently, some 'hoods have become desirable locations for people who could well afford to live elsewhere, in particular Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope. Even the very recent influx of trendy types in Williamsburgh and Greenpoint shows that the borough remains an attractive place.
Yet I wonder how much longer this situation will remain. At some point, people are going to start to chafe at the lack of services and amenities that just about everyone else takes for granted. There could be a point at which trends change and Brooklyn starts to lose its middle and upper classes.
Good point. When Brooklyn lost the Dodgers 42 years ago a lot went out of the borough. And Coney Island going down the tubes didn't help either. However, the mayor is from Brooklyn and there are a lot of prominent people who are native Brooklynites. If some of these people like Neil Diamond, Barbra Streisand, Mary Tyler Moore, Sen Boxer of Calif, etc, came together and used their good offices and the pride that comes from having lived in Brooklyn, something sure could be done. I believe in the old saying: "If there's will, there's a way."
Thanks for a very nicely written essay! My experiences at Coney Island a few years back were very similar. I agree with your ideas about what to do, once you are In Charge, too.
Something like that already exists in the New York area, and it's called Six Flags Great Adventure. Coney Island is everything the suburban corporate theme parks are not: Affordable, accessible, spontaneous, unsanitized, urban, and decidedly genuine. Putting Coney Island under the watchful eye of Disney or some other mega-corporation would be the death of a truly unique place. Is a McNathan's what you really want?
Better to bulldoze the whole place in one swift blow and build a shopping center on the site (a la Chicago's old Riverview park) than allow Disney to rape it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I totally agree. some things are better left alone. Coney Island doesn't need to be a third Disneyland/Disneyworld.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The fact is that the renovations will begin later in the year. Likely in the fall after the Labor Day weekend. It looks as though the 9th track for Q trains has been dropped in favor of some new switches that will add some flexibility.
Today while riding the 6 train southbound, I noticed some kind of stairway blocked off at 28th street on both the northbound and southbound sides. If I recall, I thought those were stairs to the path though I'm not too sure. They could also just be an underpass Could someone please clarify that for me. If they were stairs to the path, when were they closed down.
The stairway connected the up and downtown platforms. It was closed decades ago to move the muggers into a more pleasant environment.
Path is several blocks away here. It was just an underpass. Several underpasses and passageways were closed in the early 90's in the interest of security.
-Hank
I've heard some responses about this, but I didn't want to close the book on the subject just yet. If you look through the tunnels as you crawl through the subway on the 8th Ave line, you'll see "REVS" or "REVSOUP" spray-painted all over. I'd like to know the history on this, and if there are any websites. Who are the REVS and where can you get "REVSOUP?"
thanks, d.
I've heard some responses about this, but I didn't want to close the book on the subject just yet. If you look through the tunnels as you crawl through the subway on the 8th Ave line, you'll see "REVS" or "REVSOUP" spray-painted all over. I'd like to know the history on this, and if there are any websites. Who are the REVS and where can you get "REVSOUP?"
I just checked Excite, Altavista and Yahoo and came up blank.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The only thing I can think of is a book I read when I was kid, about a trouble maker who's knickname was 'Soup' Apparently, while the book was fiction, Soup was real, and there's a dedication in one of the books to the guy, who is now a minister.
-Hank
It's tagging by a graffiti artist. It's the same Revs as in the "PeekRevs" you see on the building off to the north side to the Manhattan Bridge as you enter/leave the tunnel into DeKalb.
Jon
And there's also a building on Bedford Av. visible from the Williamsburg bridge. Years ago, there were stickers for Revs and another guy, Cost, all over the village area. Probably just local dudes making their presence known.
>>Years ago, there were stickers for Revs and another guy, Cost, all over the village area. Probably just local dudes making their presence known.
I think they were more like art-school types than local dudes, but they certainly made their presence known. I only remember COST on those posters, but REVS was a lot more ambitious--he painted his tag in tons of inaccessible, but visible places, not only in the tunnels but on top of warehouses and bridges. He entirely covered the wall of a playground in SoHo with a mural that you could only read in the mirror of Ben's Pizza across the street.
I've heard both of those guys got busted about five years ago, drawing massive fines and lifetime probation, which would be why we haven't heard from them since then.
I saw stickers for REVS and COST on Chambers Street, and the one for COST included a phone number, so I programmed it into my speed dial.
If anyone wants to call, it's (212) 478-9319
Now I've erased it.
Don't call them graffiti artists call them graffiti VANDALS wich is what they are.
Andee
I don't know about the aforementioned rumors of REVS getting busted. I see new, high-profile REVS pieces up all the time, most often in collaboration with other graffiti writers. Lately he's retreated to the tunnels. Apparently he accompanies his tunnel peices with remarkable poetry, but I don't plan on crawling down there and reading it.
When taking Amtrak or Septa through North Philadelphia, look out for REVS and native Philadelphian ESPO in recent collaborations on some highly visible walls.
-Daniel Casey
I don't know about the aforementioned rumors of REVS getting busted. I see new, high-profile REVS pieces up all the time, most often in collaboration with other graffiti writers. Lately he's retreated to the tunnels. Apparently he accompanies his tunnel peices with remarkable poetry, but I don't plan on crawling down there and reading it.
When taking Amtrak or Septa through North Philadelphia, look out for REVS and native Philadelphian ESPO in recent collaborations on some highly visible walls.
-Daniel Casey
Who cares! We don't need to be glorifying graffiti on this forum. If any taggers are reading this forum, they must be getting a big kick out of the fact that railfans are taking notice of thier vandalism.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Does anyone have any pictures of rollsign assembly, particularly of the front and side signage of the R16, and the backlighting for those signs? I bought some rollsigns and wish to rig them up to the best of my ability. I've already put them in wood frames so I may mount them on a wall, but they aren't subway like that way.
Hi Folks, This Highly irritates me to write this. The following cars were vandalized losing their LOC/EXP signs they were damaged by vandals. Please read carefully: 9423 9452 9560 9570 9586 9619 9667 9722 9763. (please note that 9763 has NO local sign at all) All of these cars ARE facing south. Happily MOST have been repaired. But some still havent. For instance 9586 is now running as a lead car South Bound. With the whole middle part of the sign broken off. The white light bulb is clearly visible!!!!!! Why is this happening? I hope this comes to an end very quickly. Corona yard must be as mad as Hell. This must be stopped. PS 9620 was graffitied :( If any people ride the 7 line, Please check for the signs, If you see any other cars that appear to missing these signs post it up on subtalk.and the car # Regards.
Will do...but during the weekend coming up.
Could someone please post the reason for cancellation of the C line service during February, as recently noted on SubTalk. The line has about a 8-10 min headway in rush hours, 10 other daytimes and makes a convenient 4-6 min headway with other trains on the line, ie mainly A.
Is there a major maintenance job to be done somewhere - is there a precedent in suspending a service for so long?
I don't know about a precedent, but it's due to the replacement of the crossover at the WTC terminal of the E train. So the C will be eliminated temporarily, and the E will be extended to Euclid Ave as a replacement service. This is because there's no other place to turn the E in Manhattan and still have service to the WTC.
-Hank
01/10/2000
You know, I'm kinda suspicious. It seems whenever any long term project is announced, it's met with the usual grumbling. Then the project is finished ahead of schedule much to the relief of the riding public (ex. Willy B,Lex Ave (E,F) escalators etc.).
Maybe a public relations ploy ?
Bill Newkirk
The vandalism at Corona yard probably has to do with just how bad the whole Corona-Flushing area is becoming. I don't walk around there anymore. It's sad to see the Redbirds getting so vandalized by the growing gangs of kids and troublemakers in that area.
The MTA really does need to stop it right now, using undercover cops, video cameras or whatever, before it gets any worse.
I doubt the kids would care whether or not they vandalize an old R-36WF, a middle age R-62 or a brand new R-142, if those trains end up on the Flushing Line. Once some kids see they can get away with it, others will follow just like the graffiti epidemic of the 1970s.
Yeah, it comes full circle doesn't it? What we need is somebody like David Gunn. Or some TA official that is not afraid to kick some ass.
Well, maybe they will appoint him school's chancellor and he can kick some juvinile offender butt in there (Not to mention we could have little Redbird schoolhouses all over the city...)
(Not to mention we could have little Redbird schoolhouses all over the city...)
Hey, that's an idea. Instead of scrapping the Redbirds, make classrooms out of them. They could even teach subway history.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/11/2000
That's the kind of school I wouldn't cut classes on, and it's air conditioned too !
Bill Newkirk
Put tires on them and make them into school busses. That'll be an improvement! But wait, I don't ride the school bus to school, this won't affect me, what will my politicians offer ME? I cannot let this go on without any benefit to me. VETO IT.
Yay now instead of calling them Cheese Busses we'll call them Red Bird. And then it'll someday compete with Blue Bird.
That's an interesting concept ....
"Welcome to Redbird High School. Homeroom for Seniors is in car 9145. Step lively and watch the doors as you step into the car. New student orientation is in car 7857, down the platform. When first period is over, transfer to cars 9000 and 9001 for math class ......."
For SURE I would be an A student in a school like this!
And there would certainly be enough cars left over for Redbird University, and even the St. Louis Car Redbird Graduate Business school ....
--Mark
That's an interesting concept ....
"Welcome to Redbird High School. Homeroom for Seniors is in car 9145. Step lively and watch the doors as you step into the car. New student orientation is in car 7857, down the platform. When first period is over, transfer to cars 9000 and 9001 for math class ......."
For SURE I would be an A student in a school like this!
And there would certainly be enough cars left over for Redbird University, and even the St. Louis Car Redbird Graduate Business school ....
--Mark
At Redbird U., you would have a choice of history courses to take. You can go for a Bachelor of Science Degree in Rapid Transit. There would be an orientation course on overall Rapid Transit History in New York City. Here the student would get an overview of everything from the Steam Roads to Coney Island, to Alfred Beach's Pneumatic Tube; followed by the development of the BRT and IRT through Dual contracts, the transition of the BRT to BMT, new car development of the BMT, the IND Subway and unification. This course is known as Transportation 101. Upon successful completion of this course, you would choose your major. Redbird U. has classes in BMT History, IRT History, IND History, Unification, NYCTA and Contemporary operations under the MTA. The student is also offered courses in Transportation Planning and Development, and Operations. Upon completion of this four year degree program, the graduate would be awarded a Bachelor of Science in Rapid Transit (BSRT). Unfortunately, this and $1.50 would just get you on the subway.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think you've mistaken Robert Kiley for David Gunn as it refers to the next NYC schools chancellor. Kiley was also a former chairman of the MTA. He was not elected interim chancellor, however.
--Mark
Yes, you're right. I got my mid-1980s MTA officials mixed up.
I read in the new Trains magazine that the LIRR ordered some 30 new M7s. What are the major differences between the M7s and the earlier M1/2/3 units?
They ordered a lot more than 30! I think a few hundred.
The M-1 is about 95,000lbs, old, and geared for I think 120mph.
The M-2 is mmuch, much heavier, and runs on Metro-North's New Haven line. And is capeable of AC operation.
The M-3 LOOKS like an M-1, but some how gained 30,000 lbs. and they're newer. So much for the progress of technology.
The M-7 is going to have full width cabs (ugh), AC traction (but they still run off 750VD third rail, and NO, neither the LIRR or MN is going to go to AC third rails (whaich, AFAIK, don't exist)), Full of the same gizmos and gadgets that made the double deckers famous. And, knowing how things are progressing, probbly weigh even more than the M-3's (which, IMHO, are way overweight).
And they're expected to be delivered by 2003, so expect to see them around 2010...
What happened to M-5?
01/11/2000
I don't know what happened to the M-5. Possibly a Metro North replacement for the NYC 1100's? Correct me if I'm wrong.
The LIRR M-7's will also have pantograph gates and single door leafs as opposed to current double doors leafs. That's according to artists conception, unless they change their minds.
Bill Newkirk
The M-7 will also go to Metro-North once their mostly done with the LIRR deliveries.
If the M7 has a full-width cab, how would passengers move between cars? Will there be designated cab units and trailers (w/o cabs)?
Educated guess:
Look for a swinging cab door arangement similar to the R-68. That way the cabs can be closed off protecting the operating equipment not in use. When on he head end of a train it will open out to enclose the entire front end. I'd also presume a full window on the fireman's side as well. NJT Comet IV coaches arranged as cab cars have this type of set up. R-62/62a's are somwhat similar as well.
I know it's not "real tranist", but maybe some of you traction fans on here can explain exactly how magnetic brakes on light-rail vehicles work. Did PCC cars have these brakes, too?
Jon
I don't know how modern ones work, but the PCCs pioneered magnetic track brakes. On the PCCs long electromagnets were suspended from the outside of the truck frames, suspended over the running rails and hung between the axles.
They were automatically engaged as part of the braking system, along with dynamic braking and conventional brakes. Since they worked by magnetic attraction between the brakes and the steel rail, they (and dynamic or regenerative brakes) were less affected by environmental problems like slick rails or leaves than regular brakes.
Their deficit was that they had to be properly faded and disengaged before the final stop as a full stop with magnetic track brakes would not have been passenger-friendly.
I recall the way the track brakes on the PCC used to rock gently back forth in place as the trolleys came to rest.
The Kawasaki LRVs in Philly use magneteic brakes.
I recall the way the track brakes on the PCC used to rock gently back forth in place as the trolleys came to rest.
The Kawasakis do this. I always wondered why - you're saying it's the brakes that make it rock? I always thought it was just a wobbly suspension. They make a loud hissing noise that moves from side to side as they rock back and forth...
The track brakes rocked from the little momentum created when their application is released before stopping--i.e., while engaged they naturally exert drag on the car and are pulled toward the rear. They are fully disengaged before the final stop, so that release causes them to rebound forward, then rock back, and forth ... etc.
On the Brooklyn PCCs, I believe they rocked on sprung attachments. On the Kawasakis, it sounds like they may be attached with air shocks.
Do the brakes actually make contact with the rail, or are there stops on the suspension?
IIRC, they never actually contacted the rail in normal operation. Actual contact would have created excessive heat and wear on the track and the car.
I imagine that a rail irregularity could danage the mechanism if there was moving contact, since the track brakes were like a magnetized sled.
PCC track brakes do contact the rail, in fact excessive use of track brakes at the same location will cause "smearing" of the rail head. Normal PCC braking does not use the track brakes, only in a hard stop (brake pedal depressed below 2 1/2 inches) or an emergency stop.
Most, if not all PCC operating properties taught operators not to use the track brakes excessively.
In Baltimore, the LRV's have track brakes that are controled by a point on the control handle detent. Use of them (we do do have some "hot rods" operating) causes a audible "clunk" followed by a hard stop.
Yup, the track brakes on a PCC are there for emergency stops only.
When you push the brake pedal down, you get dynamic brakes, which
blend into conventional tread or disc brakes (depending on the model
of PCC) as the dynamics fade. Full service dynamic is 4.5 MPHPS.
Push the pedal further (below 2.5 inches, as you said) and the
track brakes start to come on. By the time you reach maximum
pedal travel (emergency position), you have 7.5-9 MPHPS stopping
ability.
The track brakes are large steel electromagnets suspended from
the truck. When they are released they tend to bounce and
wobble. The pad that contacts the rail is, I believe, made of
bronze so that it (A) wears faster than the running rail and
(B) leaves enough of a non-ferrous gap so the brakes don't get
magnetically stuck to the rail.
I did experience the effectiveness of the PCC's track brakes first hand on Boston's Highland Branch in 1960. I was standing near the rear door, when something/somebody darted onto the tracks. The next thing I knew I was at the windshield. I was under 20 at the time, indestructable and unhurt. However, I always made it a point to make sure I was holding onto something whenever I was standing in a streetcar from then on.
So they really work well Stephan? Jeff is reporting what I have heard. The Bronze is softer than the rail and helps reduce rail wear and they filler that rubs on the rail is non-magnetic so the pull of the coils just push the filler down into contact with the rail but there is not stick as in magnet to iron that would produce a shark jerk and a very hard stop.
Do any NYC subway cars use any track brakes anymore or are they gone?
Do the PATH cars use them?
Track brakes are not used on subway equipment in New York. Chicago's El cars used them since many were PCC cars or rebuilt from PCC surface cars. They tend to be a streetcar item exclusively today. BTW - MUNI cable cars have track brakes, wooden blocks applied by a foot pedal through a series of levers.
Check out todays Daily News. They have a nice article and pictures of the "redbird" replacement cars. The good news is the cars have a "railfan" window in the front!!.
Here is the URL-
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-01-10/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-53051.asp
The good news is the cars have a "railfan" window in the front!!
Actually, as the article states, I believe they have windows between cars, not at the front...
The cars have full width cabs.
Joe C
The cars have full width cabs.
Yes. In the article, it is mentioned that "The cars have four windows at the ends of many cars, instead of just one portal, which will allow riders and police to look down the line through as many as five cars at a time". That means full-width cabs at the ends of each unit. These cars look very impressive. They seem to boast the most advanced technology, which is fitting for cars debuting in 2000.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Just remember, the R-44 looked impressive too....
So did the R68's. AHHHHHH!!!!!
The R-68s were a step down. They were not high tech
No, they were high tech, but low performance.
Low speed now, anyway.
Just remember, the R-44 looked impressive too....
Very true. We all shall see what the R-142's are made of. Hopefully its not bubble gum and Reynolds Wrap.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I dunno, guys - they sure look like tin cans to me.
ANYWAY - the printed Daily News describes "crush zones" at the car ends - gee that's encouraging! Already they're planning for accidents. How far back does this "crush zone" go? The #2 door? And the seats aren't lavender - they're GREY.
Wayne
At least they'll have black floors with specks of gray and red
Yes, that will be nice. Not sure what it is about them, but I do prefer them to the traditional beige.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One stabbing and the normal paper bits of trash that end up on the floor can have the same effect, no need to pay extra for it.
Yeah- one visit to Florida in a rental car and you are stabbed on the side of the road!!
No, shot. They don't stab people in FL.
-Hank
No, shot. They don't stab people in FL.
-Hank
Sure they do, but not tourists. They're usually shot. If you're renting a car, just stay out of Miami at night. It just makes good sense. You wouldn't drive a rental car through Bed-Stuy at night either.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I prefer the R110A's seat colors: a different color for every car. Does every R142 have to look identical?
I wonder what sort of "crush zone" the BMT standards had....
Whatever got in it's way :)
-Hank
What I didn't know is they have a regenerative braking system which would save the TA from $25 to $50 million dollars in electrical costs annually. So after a couple of decades the cars might actually pay for themselves! LOL
... and you can read all about it.
--Mark
Hmmm. The article calls the cars Cadillacs. I think of Cadillacs as big cars with lots of fancy gizmos that spends a lot of time in the shop.
I was thinking that the description was similar to that of the R-44s/R-46s as they were first delivered.
Let's hope the TA learned their lesson from those orders.
--Mark
The article states that the Redbirds will remain on the #7 line. Is this true? I thought the #7 was getting some R62A's from the #6 next week.
The article states that the Redbirds will remain on the #7 line. Is this true? I thought the #7 was getting some R62A's from the #6 next week.
That's a good question. But, remember that the media doesn't always get the story straight. They might have misinterpreted the fact that the Flushing Redbirds would remain, but not necessarily on the 7.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Good question. What if Redbirds were to remain on the 7, but not necessarily be R36s? They could be R33s from the mainline.... Oh well, I guess my friend at Branford better not count his hens to soon. If the Redbirds are staying there, then I guess the R33 singles are not on the way out to any Museum just yet (Sorry, Mr. Reason)...
-Stef
Good question. What if Redbirds were to remain on the 7, but not necessarily be R36s? They could be R33s from the mainline.... Oh well, I guess my friend at Branford better not count his hens to soon. If the Redbirds are staying there, then I guess the R33 singles are not on the way out to any Museum just yet (Sorry, Mr. Reason)...
It just goes to show that we can speculate all we want, but we will see what we will see when it happens. Another thing is that the TA can change their minds about how and where to assign the R-142's and the remaining Redbirds (whichever those will be). With over 1000 R-142's coming in, its going to take a while to get them all assigned and running. Who knows what the actual car assignment will be. Maybe some R-142's will wind up on the 7 (just speculation). If the Daily News article was wrong about some things, it wasn't the first time and it surely won't be the last time. One thing we can be fairly certain of is that the Redbirds (maybe not all, but some) will be around for some time, maybe even a few years.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Once they are tested, they are going to be delivered 40 per month. That means it would take Bombardier 1 year and 5 months to deliver it's entire order, and 10 months for Kawasaki. It might take until 2002 to have them all in service.
WCBS Radio- Todd's Stations, stated they would run on the 2,5 and 6.
OK- for now, the 6 has some R62(A) Cars. If the 6 will; get R142 cars, then the other cars would have to go somewhere and that *could* mean the 7
From what I've heard over the past couple of months, all the R62A cars on the 6, plus a few singles from the 3 line will be put onto the Flushing line, with the R36WF cars shifting over to the 6 line. My guess is that the 6 line will be all R36 and it will be the last line to be equipped with the last of the R142 cars.
Smart move. Keeping the #6 line equipped with reliable subway cars until the new ones have been thoroughly tested in service on the #2 and #5 minimizes the chances of these new cars and their potential bugs screwing up the most important line in the system.
From the standpoint of a reporter, it IS very easy to get mixed up on certain facts when writing stories. This is especially true when you are not familiar with the subject of the article. You could take what someone says completely differently than what they actually meant.
And oftentimes, deadlines do not allow you to contact your source and clarify the details of a story.
BWB
From the standpoint of a reporter, it IS very easy to get mixed up on certain facts when writing stories. This is especially true when you are not familiar with the subject of the article. You could take what someone says completely differently than what they actually meant.
And oftentimes, deadlines do not allow you to contact your source and clarify the details of a story.
BWB
Yeah, I know. This is especially evident when something sensational hits the news and is in the news for 3 or 4 days, or even more. The story keeps changing as more reliable information comes in. Good examples of this are plane wrecks.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Absolutely. I bet it would be a nightmare to cover any kind of major wreck. Thankfuly, I have not covered any auto accidents, but I fear the day is comming.
Yes, the first few stories should be read with the fact in mind that the reporter probably had only a few facts available and a pressing deadline. Time restraints are one of the hardest parts of the job. :-)
Next week? Will they begin running immediately. I heard that the R62's won't be delivered for another month or two.
R62? If any are due to be delivered next month they are WAY, WAY behind schedule, like 15 years.
FWIH, the R142 will begin a six month testing period on the newly layed test track on the Dyre Ave. line. Then, barring mechanical problems (which we all know will pop up), they will be put into passanger service for 6 month, to test them under real life conditions. If they pass that test on schedule (yeah right) they will be delivered about 40 a month until both Kawasaki and Bomardier orders are filled.
Actually, the in-service test is 30 consecutive days. The clock gets reset with each failure.
David
What is meant by the statement that "some" of the cars will have staggered doors? The diagram printed with the article shows doors on the two sides of the cars directly opposite each other, like on the R-62s. (From the side, the cars look very much like R-62s, but from the front, and from the inside, they do not). Which cars will have staggered doors like the Redbirds - is it a question of manufacturer, of "A" vs. "B" cars, or was this statement an error?
As noted in a previous post, don't accept anything the media states as gospel. Could be a screw up.
By the way, remember the days when cars came in with fan fare and hoopla? Barges in the east river, fire boats, St Patrick's day parades. I suppose we should be lucky to have some press coverage for the 142's. Some cars never received even that much.
Joe C
I just hope the venerable redbirds get a sendoff befitting their incredible service life and reliability.
Thanks for the post Bob. I grabed a copy & was pleased with the level of detail (multiple photos) of the article.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, Your welcome. Glad to contribute!!!
WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? THE R142s WILL NOT HAVE A RAILFAN WINDOW. THAT IS WHY WE ARE ALL GOING TO MISS THE REDBIRDS!!!
Whew! You may put away your megaphone, thankyouverymuch.
The photo showed the transverse cab door open to reveal the cab space.
It almost looked like a railfan window at first glance. All units ending in 1,5,6 and 0 will have transverse cabs. I don't think they are planning for any oddballs, odd bunches or singles like they did with the R62/R62A.
Wayne
Don't be so sure about ALL.
What's up? Has Dave reconfigured this site with gigantic letters for the visually impared railfans among us?
What's up? Has Dave reconfigured this site with gigantic letters for the visually impared railfans among us?
No. Somebody just forgot to close his HTML tag.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I hate it when that happens.
(BTW, I knew that. I just like being a sarcastic little ...) LOL
A new show on the New York city Subway will air on the History Channel this Thursday a 10:00am.
"Meet the riders, a towerman who helps run the system, a revenue agent collecting the day's cash from token booths, amateur musicians that perform at the stations, and others who make the subway one of the most fascinating public places."
That show will air at 10:00 PM not AM on the History Channel. Thanks for the tip about the show.
Its nice to see the NY subway getting more positive attention? There was the article in the Times about the new web site and the photos and article about Oct/Nov on City Hall - now this item about the system on the History Channel.
This appears to be most positive for the system. Good luck.
Maybe its also time that David, our kind host got another mention in the press?
Actually, this site was mentioned in passing in the writeup of Rapidtransit.net. They didn't hyperlink it so it probably won't lead to a lot of attention, though, but it's nice to have it. Besides, there are plenty of other good sites deserving of press rather than this one again.
-Dave
It seems like everybody hates John Rocker today. And it goes without saying that a lot of people greatly dislike, if not hate, AOL. Well, things look *really* bad for Rocker, as he will soon be an AOL employee :-)
Watch him do:
Welcome
You've Got Mail
File's Done
Goodbye
It seems like everybody hates John Rocker today. And it goes without saying that a lot of people greatly dislike, if not hate, AOL. Well, things look *really* bad for Rocker, as he will soon be an AOL employee :-)
Make John Rocker do AOL Technical Support. He knows about as much about computers and the Internet as any of the other airheads doing AOL Technical Support.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Aol is merging with my ISP, Time Warner/Road Runner OH NO!!!
Amen, brother.
Now, AOL will invade my RoadRunner service AND my cable! No!!!!!!!
I may need to consider moving into a shack in the Smokey Mtns...
BWB
Now, AOL will invade my RoadRunner service AND my cable! No!!!!!!!
I may need to consider moving into a shack in the Smokey Mtns...
BWB
When I first got on the Internet 4 years ago, AOL had 5 million customers. Now they have 20 million. If this keeps up, soon Steve Case will be richer than Bill Gates.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When I came online 5.5 years ago, AOL had only 3 million. They had only recently opened AOL to the internet!
When I came online 5.5 years ago, AOL had only 3 million. They had only recently opened AOL to the internet!
Its a race between Bill Gates and Steve Case. One is the software king. The other is the online king. AOL took over Compuserve. Now they're taking over Time-Warner. The question is, which one will take over the other, and then the world? stop and think about it. Steve Case has 20,000,000 subscribers. I forgot how much AOL costs per month. It used to be $19.95/mo. I think its $21.95/mo., but I'm not sure. 21.95 x 20,000,000 = $439,000,000 in earnings per month, less operating expenses. Damn! That's about $14.6 million per day.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
On the other hand, whenever the Mets beat the Braves at Shea or chase Rocker or someother pitcher from the mound, they can always play "Goodbye" over the PA system.
For the record, and as promised, car #2578 was released to service on January 6, 2000. It's out making nickels again.
Steve typed on Jan 10 @ 4:44PM EST:
>> For the record, and as promised, car #2578 was released to service on January 6, 2000. It's out making nickels again.
Steve, is that a typo???
I will assume you meant 2579.
Yes but since 2578 and 2579 are linked it's an insignificant type-o...
Ok, ok, ok.
I give up.
What's so important about these cars?
A few weeks ago someone asked when car 2579 would be returned to service. I accomodated and answered the question. I suppose that you'll have to read back and find the original posting and ask him/her.
Did they give #2579 a Black Floor?
Wayne
That was quick! Do you think the same fine body doctors and electrical wizards can put poor old #4259 back together again? I know, it's not your yard, but maybe you could put a good word in for her. It's only sheet metal and fiberglass damage although there probably isn't a spare nose left here on earth that could fix her.
Wayne
If the bonnet is not in stock (and several different ones are) The molds are available. I believe the lead time on a bonnet is between 180 and 270 days. Money is another story...
Has the Transit Museum closed yet - or is there a firm date it will close for renovations?
The word is that a firm date is not set, but that the original approximate close date "around the New Year" has been pushed back to "sometime in February". Certainly they will have to do the work required before the summer months as the main reason for the renovations is to provide adequate air conditioning and ventilation for those stiffling July and August days.
Doug aka BMTman
The cars look nice that are going to the 2, 5 and 6. but two questions to ask.
1-why are they not going to the #7 line?
2-will the seats be big enough to fit people's behind? When the R62 and R62A first came out, you could not sit down comfortably.
until new cars come to the "Q" line..
There was a New York Times article last week where fellow SubTalker Paul Matus contributed some information. It said how each person now had some more space than on the R26s.
There will be almost 1/4 less seats.
It's kind of pointless to get these news cars if there will be 1/4 less seats. The Lexington avenue line is already filled to capacity, adding these trains will only make them fuller. Especially with the LIRR to GCT in a couple of yrs. I know that these cars have their advantages but come on let's keep the redbirds or get cars that will fit more ppl. First of all, the redbirds hold more ppl and they're in good working condition(most of them at least). It's such a shame to see them go, but I guess it's time to move on!!!
Fortunately, yet unfortunately, these cars have to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, allowing space for our fellow wheelchair passengers. Yes, less seats are available....but the handicap community needs their space. -Nick
But, have you seen any wheelchair bound people in the subways lately? I haven't.
Where's the old fold-down seat from the BMT Standards when you need it?
its in the Transit Museum...
Yeah, but that blocked a door leaf.
Yeah, but that blocked a door leaf.
Not all the time was the full door capacity needed on the A/B's. Those cars date back to 1914 when life was simpler and Brooklyn was a lot less developed.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
But in 1914 almost no one owned a car, and from what I've been told, the trains were even more crowded than today.
But in 1914 almost no one owned a car, and from what I've been told, the trains were even more crowded than today.
The outer reaches of the Southern Division were sparsely populated at that time. Trains couldn't have been more crowded than today. Lets look at the entire city. All along the Southern divisions, these neighborhoods were sparsely populated. Paul Matus' photo of the Ave. H stationhouse among woods bears this out. Queens was a prairie - basically rural. The north Bronx wasn't developed yet, another rural area. What was densly populated was the Northwestern part of Brooklyn, around the downtown area. Manhattan was densly populated. The South Bronx was being developed around this time. The Standards were designed for interurban type operation. It was Dual Contracts and the major expansion of rapid transit that resulted from it that caused major development in NYC's outer boroughs. There was also a major influx of immigrants to populate the city. But when the Standards were designed, there was still much rural land within the city limits - farms, forest. Gee it must have been nice back then! Do you know what its like to go to a U-Pick farm and bring home fresh produce? Freshly picked vegetables taste much better than the stuff that is sold in the stores, that have been in a refrigerated warehouse for some time.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They raised small animals - chickens, goats, etc. on the property, when my mom was growing up in Canarsie - circa 1910-1915. There was a dairy farm in Ozone Park as late as the 1950's.
They raised small animals - chickens, goats, etc. on the property, when my mom was growing up in Canarsie - circa 1910-1915. There was a dairy farm in Ozone Park as late as the 1950's.
That's what has been missing from New York for years - the farms.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Until the late 70's there was a small farm between the Sea Beach Line and Coney Island Yard about where the car wash now stands. I DISTINCTLY remember that they used manure for fertilizer!
I DISTINCTLY remember that they used manure for fertilizer!
So does the TA!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There's a farm museum on Little Neck Pkway between the Grand Central and Union Tnpk.
There's a farm museum on Little Neck Pkway between the Grand Central and Union Tnpk.
A farm museum? I've never heard of a farm museum before. But, if things keep going the way they've been going, soon we will be importing all our cattle and produce from South America, and there will be "farm museums" all over the country to show people what this phenomenon called a "farm" used to be!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I don't think it's less interior room overall - which implies more standing room if there are fewer seats. Perhaps wider doors have an impact - but that doens't take away from standing room. I doubt ADA compliance takes away more than two seats per car at most.
I don't think it's less interior room overall - which implies more standing room if there are fewer seats. Perhaps wider doors have an impact - but that doens't take away from standing room. I doubt ADA compliance takes away more than two seats per car at most.
It depends how many places there are in each car for a wheelchair. One wheelchair would take up either 2 or 3 seats. To say that 25% of the normal seating capacity will be lost by ADA compliance is a bit of an overstatement if you ask me. If anyone needs to worry about anything regarding the R-142's, I imagine it wuld be reliability. The more high-tech a piece of equipment is, the more bugs you have to worry about initially. The big question is which cars will be more reliable? The Kawasakis or the Bombardiers? I don't think they will both perform equally as well.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The problem will not be one of reliability so much as availability. A single failure will cause the loss of 1/2 train not just one or two cars.
From my understanding the wheelchair positions will be in the "A" units only, as designated by the red stripe at the outer ends (which fades as it flows along the side of the car). The red on the front ends also makes this visible as the car wheelchair bound people should head to.
Joe C.
What I noticed about the interior is that the traditional poles used by standing riders that ran down the center of the older cars have been replaced with a bar running down the center of the car, hanging off the ceiling. I can understand this modification, as anyone with a wheelchair would have to do a zig-zag pattern to get from one end of a redbird to the other.
It's also good for when you're in the middle of the aisle, with nothing to do but stretch out, or rely on your neighbors :-)
Uh oh. I can see the protests now coming from the "vertically challenged" that the overahead bar is out of their reach and they have nothing to keep from being thrown around when they're standing in the middle of the R-142s.
I expect to see an MTA contract order coming down the pike around the end of the year for 2,200 aluminum poles. with ceiling and floor attatchments.
Most of the 'lost seats' go to wider doors. There's also increased standee space. The number of seats available varies (since they have benches rather than buckets) with the size of the rear that is on it. You can fit 1.5 of Kate Moss in the space that I take up.
-Hank
You could fit about 60% of Kate Moss in those annoyingly small seats on the R62. Definatey not designed for big American as_es.
You could fit about 60% of Kate Moss in those annoyingly small seats on the R62. Definatley not designed for big American as_es.
I know where this is heading...someone's going to blame the Japanese for the narrow seats -- again. It's not true! Blame Carol Bellamy, formerly of the NY City Council and the MTA Board. She demanded that the R-62 contain the same number of seats (44) as the cars they were replacing. This was impossible to accomplish while maintaining the proposed design, without making the seats narrow. With flat seats (as tested on cars 1586-1592 -- yes, 6 cars), there are still 44 seats, but people can slop over onto adjacent seats more easily, so there aren't REALLY 44 available seats.
David
The subway should have seats like on the Commuter RRs (front and back only, 3+2).
The problem with that comes when you have crush loads; no room for standees.
-Hank
The BMT standards did have such 3+2 seating. They also had seats for 75 adults in each car. They were able to gobble up the rush hour crowds with a much reduced need for standing room. The smaller number of standees meant that there was less conflict between boarding/exiting passengers. This resulted in less dwell time despite the fact that the A/B's had only 3 doors on each side with a center pole on each.
The elimination of the A/B's and D's and their replacement resulted in a 33% loss of seating capacity through DeKalb. Voila instant crush loads!
These cars would be ideal for the crowded East side IRT. Less seats means more room to pack straphangers in like cattle.
The ADA has altered subway design permanently, and the multitude of seats seen on older cars will soon be a thing of history.
These cars would be ideal for the crowded East side IRT. Less seats means more room to pack straphangers in like cattle.
Does the public still use terminology like "cattle cars" and "sardine cans" to describe subway trains?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The ADA has altered subway design permanently, and the multitude of seats seen on older cars will soon be a thing of history.
The TA has been trying to get rid of seats for more than 40 years. They removed the seats for a set of LV's and ran it on the 42nd St shuttle in the 1950's. The public protested and the seats returned. However, they have been ordering cars with fewer and less attractive seats with every new order. ADA compliance is simply a canard.
01/10/2000
I have been told of a new "promo" Metrocard being released. CBS Channel 2 Early Show card. If this is true please confirm. Otherwise, be on the lookout.
Bill Newkirk
I true, I already have one.
I already posted the list of stations--last week!
Subject: New Promotional metroCard
01/11/2000
Sorry Mr. Subway Buff. Just meant to say that this card was titled The Early Show. Heard some hearsay from another collector about a promo card referring to "Broadway" on it. Hear anything, let us know.
Bill Newkirk
Yes. I posted a question about a card being auctioned on E-bay. It depicted B'way in the late 1800's or so. It was a Metrocard. No one knows anything about it.
About the new CBS card, I don't recall the stations being posted.
Are they available only at some stations, as usual?
Suppose I can pick one up at the card collector's show in February.
Joe C
One of the first old blue MCs was a "$20" at Times Sq. (Jan '94)
Also one of the "Healthy City" series of five had a horse & buggy, but the street wasn't identified.
P.S. I have the poster of the orig. 77 MCs & am aware of five they missed, but none fit your description, i.e. 1880s Brodway. Maybe a scam ?
Mr t__:^)
Over the weekend there was a report here of someone taking a ride on the R110B on the L line. Has it been seen or ridden on by anyone else on the L? Someone later reported from Cars and Equipment that there was no record of the 110B's operating in revenue service out in the Eastern Division.
What gives? Does anyone know the whereabouts of the 110B's now and over last weekend?
While we are on the lookout for things, has anyone seen or ridden on any R9,low V, Standard, or Triplex cars that were predicted to appear on 1-1-2000 by yours truly.
Sorry, Paul - I hate to say it, but Kreskin you ain't!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, but the slant R-40 that adorns the front of the New York Division ERA bulletin has somehow changed into a 3rd Ave El train of MUDC cars ....
--Mark
heypaul, unfortunately, it looks like your plans for 'World Domination of Rapid Transit Lines through R9 Equipment' have been ruined.
I suspect your seed pods were sabotaged! Rudy G. is the likely cuprit (or prehaps a descendant of the dreaded Mayor Hylan!)
Doug aka BMTman
People are pulling our legs. They wouldn't run the cars over there without putting up new conductor boards.
Thanks Eric. You know when the guy posted the report about riding on the R110B, I believed it.
If, as it seems, that he was pulling our legs, then it is very "fitting and proper" that I fell for it and went on to congratulate the guy for getting a scoop on everyone else here. It is right that I feel stupid for believing it, because quite often I have used this space to propagate some strange fantasy of the subways that I have.
So I would like to withdraw my congratulations, and at the same time extend my apologies for any annoyance that I have created here with some of my silliness. My postings were intended to be funny, and hopefully provide a few laughs.
This has been a very illuminating experience for me,
although it has not changed my feelings toward the monthly Transit Transit show.
My postings were intended to be funny, and hopefully provide a few laughs
I often times post things that are intended for laughs also, like some things that I posted about the "snobway", and my idea of switching letters and numbers between the A-Division and B-Division, and using Chinese letters for trains. However, when I see that anyone is taking my levity posts seriously, I'll let everyone know it was just tongue in cheek. To intentionally deceive others into believing something false is actually true fact is really low.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, I believe the guy who originally posted the thread about sighting the R-110B train on the L was BSing us. I think he did that to 'start trouble' at SubTalk (pro vs. con going back and forth adinfinitum).
heypaul and I discussed this offline. Any further postings by the person should be ignored.
Doug aka BMTman
I highly doubt the R110B was ever on the L line. If anyone can confirm that it was, please let us all know.
I did see that poor, homeless D-type sitting behind the CI carwash. And it magically appeared after 1-1-00. You're more of a seer than we give you credit for, paul.
I rode on the R110B operating as a C train (north motor 3001) in a 6 car consist on Tues. 1/11 at approx 12:15 pm. Rode from 59th street to 125th street. All of the automated annuciator equipment is disabled. Outside destination signs read, "C-listen for announcements"
There was no inication on inside od train as to what you were riding on. T/O said that there is no truth to train operating on the Canarsie line.
Peace,
Andee
Thanks for your report of riding on the R-110B on the C, and for reporting that the train operator said that it had not been running on the L.
You are quite welcome.
Just as I suspected. The original post about the sighting of R-110's on the L was bogus.
Doug aka BMTman
As I recall the original post was even more hilarious. Seems the poster had been on a R68 on the L line. This was eventually changed to the R110.
I think it a hoax because i didn't see R110B on L line on Tuesday went from Rockway Park to 8th Ave & not even on the Canarsie Yard or East New York Yard.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I am still looking for people to join the TrAnSiTiNfO webring. 5 ppl have already joined. Click Here!!! to join.
Thanks
Clark Palicka
Hi,
I just watched an episode of Seinfeld where they stop at Queensboro Plaza where Kramer gets a "Giro". From the set it looks as though its an underground station, however looking at pictures from this site its an elevated station. As a non New Yorker and never visited (yet) can somebody clear this up for me?
Thanks,
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
http://ufies.org/~aleith/transit/index.html
Queensboro Plaza is an elevated station, both the N and John Rocker's favorite, the #7 stop there. Queens Plaza is an underground, almost, but not quite directly underneath, where the E, F, G and R trains stop.
Hi Mark,
I thought so. Do they really sell those things called "Giro's" on the platform. Are you familiar with that particular episode of Seinfeld?
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
http://ufies.org/~aleith/transit/index.html
I don't think the sell Gyro's on the platform. You can basically find them anywhere in the city though. Most hot dog stands have them.
what exactly is a Gyro?
Thin sliced roast lamb on a pita, with lettuce, tomato, onions, and seasoned sour cream. It's Greek in origin, I believe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But a real Giro is cut from a leg of lamb while its spun on a sort of rotisserie.
And the real Gyro(pronounced Yero) has Yogurt, not Sour Cream
True - I forget that's seasoned yogurt, I should know better!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just tend to think of it as a Greek taco.
I'm actually not really sure. It's a Greek food, it's never really looked attractive to me for eating.
It's pronounced YEERO.
I am not familiar with that episode of Seinfeld. By law, you are not permitted to eat or drink on the subway, (which of course never stopped anyone), but I have never seen hot food sold on the platform. They do sell candy and such at various newsstands throughout the system.
Mark.
By law, you are not
permitted to eat or drink on the subway,
Huh? But there are vendors selling food within fare control, no? I certainly remember the hot pretzel guy @ Union Square on the Canarsie in evening rush.
Okay, perhaps I'm mixing up eating and drinking with smoking. I know personally, I get annoyed when people eat on the trains. Most of them make a mess.
No, it's most definately illegal. No one bothers you, if you take your trash with you. I do this on the x-bus every morning. I've got my Yoo-Hoo, and it always leaves the bus with me.
-Hank
Thank you, I don't feel as stupid now.
Mark.
I always take my glazed donuts and large coffee on the train in the morning. I'm clean, I don't litter, and I've never been bothered by TA personnel or cops. It's those slobs who leave a pile of jerk chicken bones all over the floor that makes me mad.
Didn't there used to be hot dog stands at Bway Junction a while ago?
I remember as a youth in the 60's there were all sort of food stands at various major stations.....I remember 14th/Lex, Grand Central, Penn Station, Times Square and Continental Avenue.....I sure S-T'ers can recount more.
01/11/2000
Although the Flushing Line wasn't my line, I remembered a pretzel stand at 74th & Broadway at the top of the escalator landing.
Bill Newkirk
Yup. When I would "ditch" school to go on one of my subway excursions years ago, I'd always get a donut and a Coke from he stand that used to be on the uptown F platform at Delancy St. If i passed by later on in that day, and if i had the funds, I'd get a hot dog (which were damned good). They used to` be everywhere:
Delancy St.
Hoyt-Schermehorn St.
Jay St.
Broadway-ENY
169th St.
Times Sq.
Grand Central
Colombus Circle
Any more?
And how could I forget that HUGE candy stand that used to be at the Herald Sq. staton, where you could get a big bag of fresh popcorn or a 1/2 a pound of roasted cashews. That stand gave that whole station a GREAT smell.
The Only place I remember is Times Square, I remember their Jamaican Beef patties., Thats was the only thing I ate in the Subways.
I certainly remember the hot pretzel guy @ Union Square on the Canarsie in evening rush.
I remember the pretzel vendor at Union Sq. very well. As a kid, every time we passed by, I asked my parents for a pretzel. I used to love those big hot soft pretzels. Back in the 1960's they were 10¢ each and 3 for a quarter. Union Sq. wasn't the only place they had those hot pretzel stands. There was also one at the transfer point between the IND Queens Line and the Flushing Line at 74th St. and Roosevelt Ave.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There used to be several hot food stands at Times Sq (Shuttle), Union Sq(IRT) and Grand Central(Shuttle). David Gunn got rid of them because they contributed to the rat problem.
Also the "Restaurant" that you see in many episodes is "Tom's Restaurant" on Broadway in Harlem at about 110 Street. I've eaten at the coffee shop & inside it is similar to the set on TV.
Mr t__:^)
The building above the restaurant houses some reseach facilities of Columbia University. I don't know if these facilities are rented or if the building is owned by Columbia U.
Columbia ownes a L-O-T of realestate in the area & controls very specifically who gets to rent, i.e. no "fast food" need apply.
I enjoyed may a strool at lunch in the area, but wouldn't hang around much after dark (old & kids get preyed upon a lot at night).
Mr t__:^)
It's on 112th & Broadway in MORNINGSIDE HEIGHTS. The inside looks nothing like the one on the show. There are some similarities, but only to the extend that they both share basic principles of the diner.
ALSO, the door on the Seinfeld set is obviously inconsistent with the door on the outside.
(Tom's is at) "It's on 112th & Broadway ..."
Thanks for the correction. It is one of the spots that many students & employees of Columbia frequent at lunch time. It wasn't my intention to make anyone think it is exactly like the set. It's just a average coffee shop with a counter & some tables. Food is average too, but if you're in the area & are hungry it would make great conversation amoung you friends. I frequented the Pizza shop across the street & the Chineese place at 110th & Broadway. This area has a lot of interesting places to grab a bit for pocket change, incl. the Cafe at Barnard, the Auditorium at North Church, Curry at a Indian place on Amsterdam or sandwich at Chock-Full-of-Nuts. After working their a while it gives you a whole different attidute about Harlem.
Yes I ate at Mickey D's at 125th too.
Sorry for the off-topic ramblings ... come & see where the West Side Amtrack line emerges in this area, just North of Grant's Tomb ... see the IRT 125th Elevated station (elevation for one station !) or the underground IRT yard, just a bit up the line.
Mr t__:^)
What do you guys think of this? I'll want feedback. 1]Madison Avenue line from 23 st. of the Bway line to the lower level of Grand Central,to Queens via the 63rd st.tunnel and LIRR Port Washington branch. 2]Worth st.line from the Nassau st.at Essex st.,to Canal st station of the 8th aveline. 3]World Trade Center IND tracks connection to the BWAY line at Cortlandt st. 4]Bway line connection to the Nassau st.from City Hall to Broad st. 5]Chrystie st. extention to SOUTH FERRY via Water st. 6]DeKalb ave.BMT connection to IND 6 AVE LINE via Rutgers st tunnel. 7]SOUTH JAMAICA route via BMT/IND LINES from JAMAICA CENTER to Rosedale. There you go,guys and ladies.Thoughts and comments will be will recieved
OK, some question/problems I can see:
1]Madison Avenue line from 23 st. of the Bway line to the lower level of Grand Central,to Queens via the 63rd st.tunnel and LIRR Port Washington branch.
Takes away capacity from Broadway Line north of 23rd Street. portion via 63rd Street already served from Broadway via existing line.
2]Worth st.line from the Nassau st.at Essex st.,to Canal st station of the 8th aveline.
Preusmably coming off Willy B. Where does line go from Canal/8th?
3]World Trade Center IND tracks connection to the BWAY line at Cortlandt st.
Montague Street tunnel is already at capacity for Broadway and Nassau St. service.
4]Bway line connection to the Nassau st.from City Hall to Broad st.
Same problem as other downtown connections. Dividing capacity.
5]Chrystie st. extention to SOUTH FERRY via Water st.
Why not? If we can get them to pay for it?
6]DeKalb ave.BMT connection to IND 6 AVE LINE via Rutgers st tunnel.
Good idea, since it allows for Manhattan Bridge emergencies while using unused capacity on 6th Ave. local line.
7]SOUTH JAMAICA route via BMT/IND LINES from JAMAICA CENTER to Rosedale.
Good if it's a new line, but there is no longer unused capacity on the LIRR line.
To answer your questions, 1]The TA wants to run the new 2nd Ave. stubway though the Bway line. As planed,there will be four services=N,R,T and W. R would run to the new branch as the BWAY/2nd AVE EXP, T would replace R on QUEENS BLVD with the N/W running to ASTORIA. Now, one of this routes could divert to Madison Ave. at 23 st., run north to the lower level of GRAND CENTRAL, hook up to the 63 st.LOWER LEVEL for service to the Port Washington branch. This would leave BWAY service intact while placing more north/south service in the C.B.D.,direct connection to G.C.T and a new Queens/Nassau/Mid-Lower Manhattan rail line. 2]The Worth st. line would leave the Nassau st. line before entering the Essex st sta.,going to East Bway ,then Worth st. and into the 8th ave local tracks. THIS should be the new 'Z' service from Jamaica to Washington Heights[168 st] 3]8th ave/Broadway trains would be able to use the Montague tunnel with the elimination of the Nassau rush hour trains. Also,a connection to the IND FULTON LOCAL via a new Court st/Montague tunnel tie line.
In the midst of a cracked equalizer bar under 9011, I thought that I'd report on another R33 failure. Note that 9010-11 are back out on the road again...
A bad ordered #2 train made it's way up Track M tonight up on the el to the yard here in the Bronx, slower than usual. Apparently, 2 motors in the Conductor's position dropped dead. 9144 and 45 had no power whatsoever, not even lights. The car coupled to it, had it's tail lights on for whatever reason. The train got up to the East and was reported to be running on pneumatic brakes only.
I wonder what would cause the cars to crap out? And what about pneumatic brakes? What does this mean for the T/O operating his train?
The car coupled to it, had it's tail lights on for
whatever reason. The train got up to the East and was reported to be running on pneumatic
brakes only.
I wonder what would cause the cars to crap out? And what about pneumatic brakes? What does
this mean for the T/O operating his train?
It sounds like the electric portion was retrieved to isolate
the b/o cars electrically from the rest of the train.
The tail light circuit is automatically made up via a contact
on the electric portion slide...when the portion is back,
the contact closes and the tail lights are on. Normally
this does the right thing and illuminates the lights
at the rear of the train.
Normally the portion advances and retrieves automatically when
the coupler is added to or cut from. To isolate an electrical
defect, the portion can be manually retrieved while leaving the
car coupled. The tail lights will then come on, and since
there is no electrical connection, you don't have buzzer,
pa, lighting control, dynamic brakes, motors, or electric brakes
in the rear section. When operating without electric brake,
the straight air signal is forced to travel purely pneumatically.
You have to be a lot more ginger in brake applications and not
make sudden changes in straight air pressure, otherwise the
front of the train will be, e.g., in full service while the rear
is in release.
I understand. The electric portions basically isolated one section from the other. But if that's the case, then these are not fully MUed in this scenario.
Speaking of 9011... I observed the truck as the car passed by and noticed nothing peculiar about it. The truck is the same, because it didn't look refurbished. The shoe beam assembly was replaced.
-Stef
In my opinion, it is not a good idea.
#1) As illustrated in another post (or possibly in nyc.transit), how about those riders needing Queens Blvd Service having to transfer twice?
#2) Cutting the tracks off beyond Court Square is also equally bad, as sometimes this trackage may be needed to run diverted trains through the G line (remember the re-routed F running through the G line?)
#3) Residents of Greenpoint, Fort Greene(?) as well as other neighborhoods served by the G line will probably try to raise hell over this. More likely the ones that will shout bloody murder are those that need to go from Brooklyn to Queens Blvd.
I can think of several ways to avoid cutting off G service.
#1) Make the G run 24/7 to at least 71/Continental. Night service can be constructed as follows:
R remains a shuttle in Brooklyn
F service gets reduced to a Rockefeller to Coney Island service
E service stays express
V service makes all local stops to 71 Av (tentative)
G service goes from Smith/9 to 179th
Q service (none???)
Keep three Queens Blvd local services running during Rush hour (G, R and V) and two expresses (E, F).
That leaves with middays and evenings, which is pretty sticky.
#2) Extend the G to either Church Ave, making F service in Brooklyn express until Church Ave...OR G to Kings Highway as a local during rush hours where F will run peak direction express. One may utilize the reopening of Bergen lower level.
OR.... ????
This subject has been going on for quite a while, but let's see if there are better ways to avoid reducing the G line.
Nick
The problem is, there's no room. 99% of the trips that originate on the Queens line are Manahttan-bound, and having 3 local trains, one of which doesn't go to Manhattan is a waste of a valuable resource. The Queens line is probably the second-most crowded line in the city (if not the most; campared to the Lex) Ever been on a G train where all the seats were taken? You have to inconvenience the few to satisfy the many.
-Hank
What you do is run some G trains through to 71-Continental and some F trains to Queens Plaza ONLY. The pattern of service on the local would be G R F R and so on. Nights, run the E local in Queens and the F to Queensbridge. Other times, just F and R local service in Queens Boulevard.
This is way too confusing. During rush hour, the headways are way too tight to turn anything at Queens Plaza. Even during middays/early evenings, the headways are still somewhat tight.
Like Hank said in a previous post, you've got to inconvenience a few to satisfy the many.
Michael
I have read something in a NARP newsletter about a 63rd Street Connection slated for completion in 2001.
Without it, it seems that during peak hours all G trips should be converted to R trips and should be run as Broadway expresses or locals (I would imagine that there is more than enough room). Hence, it would be nice if Gs could operate from Smith 9th Street to Court Street, and then, if possible, into Manhattan with the E and the F and onto 6th Avenue, or onto Broadway. I have heard that Broadway is really below capacity; could it fit double the G trains running today? And if this 63rd Street extention is finished, then F Trains should be routed via the new extention, leaving more room for the G Trains to get across the river.
How could it do that? There are no tracks from the F/G to the Broadway Line. Also, what happens to your crosstown line? That is not possible in any way, shape, or form.
Combining two problems -- the lack of G service past Court Sq. and the NIMBY protests against the N extension to LaGuardia -- I think a spur off the local track at Northern Blvd. at Broadway going under the BQE right-of-way to LaGuardia would be a partial solution to both problems.
You could continue to run the G and R to 71st-Continental, and run the V train (or Q) from LaGuardia to Manhattan via the 63rd St. tunnel. Adding a couple of stations between LGA and Northern Blvd. might also bring in addition passengers who currently take the bus over to 74th-Roosevelt for the E or F.
You see,the flaw in your proposal is,YOU may want.WE may want it,BUT the TA WON'T BUILD either. Why? The claim of no funding,the NIMBY'S will scream bloody murder[see 63rd st./Montauk proposal]and last,the TA will claim they don't have time to fit the extentions into the next capitol inprovment plan. So, it's all for naught,see?
If there are NIMBYs about the N, then there will probably be NIMBYs about a 63rd Street Extention.
There are NIMBY's stopping everything. It's time the city says "Hey, we need this, and you'll have to deal with any short-term inconviences". Some people need to be told that they have no choice.
Isaac,do you live in New YORK? I wonder,because with a statment like that it means ether one of two things. 1]YOU are looking at a map right now or.... 2]YOU DON'T know beans about the subway system!!! Take your pick........
I pick 1. You are correct; I do not live in New York.
The main problem is the G terminating short of Queens Plaza. Why not construct a new, lower platform under the existing Queens Plaza station and use it to terminate G trains?
Of course. $$$$$. What was I thinking ...
Would that not get in the way of the LIRR connection from the 63rd street tunnel to Sunnyside Yard? I'm not sure of the planned routing, but I know it's got to come close.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, the access to this proposed yard would be near the Steinway St station, further north.
Forgottoners Tour #5: Forgotten Harlem
Saturday, January 29, 10AM
At token booth at 125th and Lex (#2-3) at 10 AM
Highlights:
• Last remaining fire watchtower in Mt Morris Prk
• Astor Row, 130th near 5th
• Strivers Row, 138/139 between Powell and Douglass
• Hamilton Grange and zHamilton Hts Historic District
• Last remaining Manhattan milestone and Croton Aqueduct ROW, W152 near St. Nicholas
• Morris-Jumel Mansion and Sylvan Terrace, Edgecombe and W160 St
Time: approx. 5-6 hrs. Break for lunch. If enough time, tours at Grange and Morris/Jumel.
See Forgotten homepage at www.forgotten-ny.com for more detail.
Don't be L7, be there or be square!
Tonight, My friend Dennis and myself took a ride up to E180th Street to see if we could catch a glimpse of the R142's. There was a train of "Redbirds" out of service on the middle track. We were commenting about the rust problem (Which was pretty bad on this train) when, after overhearing us, a cop came over and started talking to us. He asked if I knew when the first new cars were going to be delivered. I told him that there were two trains in the barn. He didn't believe me and said "If they are there, let's go see" He took us up the overpass and down into the yard. We entered the shop to see the two trains sitting side by side. The Kawasaki train was locked up tight and dark. The Bombardier train, however, was being put through some tests. There were some Bombardier employees around who gave us a grand tour. The cars are nice. The floor is black with fox red speckles. The interiors are roomy with plenty of lighting. They were doing some tests with the doors and emergency intercom. In all they went out of their way showing us around. I even got a copy of the operators manual. Overall, There are differences between both sets. Here are some:
Horn under anticlimber: Left on R142, Right on R142A, Front door window smaller on R142A. Trucks are totally different on both sets, Front of Kawasaki train is fiberglass, Bombardier is stainless steel. I was invited back Sunday. This time I will bring my camera.
You lucky bastard... I'm jealous!
Can't wait to see some serious close-up pics!
While you're there, ask them when they think the cars will run in revenue service
I saw a set on 12 Track in the barn and it appeared to be charged up as I was passing by on the 2 (headlamps were on suggesting movement). I think they were doing the first road test in the yard...
-Stef
You lucky bastard... I'm jealous!
Can't wait to see some serious close-up pics!
Hey, the guy got lucky. He was in the right place at the right time. Once the cars are in service, this privilege of seeing them first won't mean much anymore. Then everyone will ride them and get pics. If I had my choice of being in the right place at the right time, I'd rather it be for something that lasts, like a good job, rather than the privilege of seeing something first, that everyone else will see shortly. Enjoy the Redbirds while they're still running. You will have plenty of time to get sick of seeing 1100 R-142's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You are right!!! I should be paying attention to the soon departing Redbirds. BTW I rode 7773 on the way back. Complete with the opening R-21 storm door window.
You are right!!! I should be paying attention to the soon departing Redbirds. BTW I rode 7773 on the way back. Complete with the opening R-21 storm door window.
That is going to be what people will be treasuring in less than 2 years - being lucky enough to catch a Redbird (pun not intended). I remember going through the same situation with the R-1/9's. I couldn't care less about the R-44/46's, because soon, all the prewar AMUE equipment would be gone. That was the end of an era. Now, another era is ending - the Carbon steel era. Soon, NYC will be just like Chicago, all stainless steel. Oh! How mundane! Just wait until the next era ends - the era of the railfan window (poor Willie). That era will probably end with the last R-32, not 42 going out of service. Don't get me wrong, I think you and Dennis had a great stroke of luck last night being able to get a first look at the brand new R-142's, but, despite what all the envious people on the forum are thinking, that moment won't mean much when everyone is sick of looking at 1100 R-142's. I was 11 years old in 1965, when they started minting dimes and quarters out of copper and nickel. I was so mesmerized by this new phenomonal type of coin that I couldn't save enough of them every time I saw one. After all, silver coins were aso common, but this was something new and different. It was the silver coins that I should have been saving, not the new junk, because it is the silver that became rare. By the end of 1965, we had plenty of the "new junk" and no more silver. If you were with Dennis, I'm sure he knew enough to be focusing on the departing Redbirds and not the shiny new "Y2K" cars. Dennis is a nostalgia freak just like me.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
PLEASE POST any and all UNIT NUMBERS and I will consider them "spotted". Thank you very much in advance.
Wayne
Well 6304 & company was there. (6301-6310)
I think you should sell your "drool cup" on e-bay. It would make you a fortune, I suspect.
Congratulations on "good r-142 hunting". I am sure that I speak for all me SubTalk colleagues in wishing you Godspeed.
Can any one shed some light on this? When a G.O. is in effect which bypasses local stations, eg., D line N/B to Tremont passing local stops (such as this past Sunday), why don't they open on both sides when they get to Tremont. It would certainly make it a lot easier for people with baby strollers, etc. I know that they used to open on both sides in circumstances such as this. Why don't they do it anymore. If the TA truly cared about the passenger they would.
Peace,
Andee
Don't know why....But remember back in the 70's...the D's & A's opened
both sides at 59st columbus circle//there was a conductor on the center platform during rush hrs.....days of R9s & 10s...(miss 'em)
During rush hours, yes they did. I remember using the center platform on one or two occasions; in fact, once I boarded a D train of R-32s from that platform.
Usually when they do this, they open on the 'wrong' side to ease transfers, and close the 'right' platform. It's odd that they don't.
-Hank
Can any one shed some light on this? When a G.O. is in effect which bypasses local stations, eg., D line N/B to Tremont passing local stops (such as this past Sunday), why don't they open on both sides when they get to Tremont. It would certainly make it a lot easier for people with baby strollers, etc. I know that they used to open on both sides in circumstances such as this. Why don't they do it anymore. If the TA truly cared about the passenger they would.
I don't ever recall seeing this on the Flushing Express at 61st St., Junction Blvd. or Willets Point.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"If the TA truly cared about the passenger they would."
Forgive me but there is something very annoying about your posting. In other words, if the TA does not do things the way YOU think they should do it, then they don't care about the customers?
The doors open on the side that provides the most convenience for the majority of the customers. There are two very logical operational reasons for opening one side at a time. However, I'd perfer to hear from Erik & some of the other conductors regarding this issue.
In most cases the platform going against the traffic of the G.O. would be closed. Say I'm heading up on track 4 and the G.O. has track 2 closed. So to get to one of the local stops like 161-River Av. you'd have to take a down town train. Station department should have closed the uptown platform and the conductor will open only on the down town side.
Occasionally the station is open on both sides. In that case I'd have opened on both sides where an island platform exists. I do at Eastern Parkeway when I have a short turn J.
All this should be spelled out in the G.O. If not then it's the conductor's discretion. Many conductors aren't always conscious of everyones needs, or simply don't care.
In most cases the platform going against the traffic of the G.O. would be closed. Say I'm heading up on track 4 and the G.O. has track 2 closed. So to get to one of the local stops like 161-River Av. you'd have to take a down town train. Station department should have closed the uptown platform and the conductor will open only on the down town side.
Occasionally the station is open on both sides. In that case I'd have opened on both sides where an island platform exists. I do at Eastern Parkway when I have a short turn J.
All this should be spelled out in the G.O. If not then it's the conductor's discretion. Many conductors aren't always conscious of everyones needs, or simply don't care.
Logical Reason #1 -- If I open both sides of the train, this implies that there are people on both sides of the train. As the train starts to move, which side do I watch? The rules state that the CR must watch the platform for 3 car lenghts or the end of the platform, whichever comes first. He can't watch both sides (unless you know some 2-headed CRs), so only one side opens.
Logical Reason #2 -- As Erik says, the GO will say which side to open when stopping at M track with 2 island platforms. If the CR opens both sides, or the side not specified by the GO, it is the equivalent of opening on the wrong side, and he can lose his job. If the GO does not specify which side to open, the CR is to open the side of the train which platforms in the normal direction of traffic -- ie, if the downtown 4 is running on M track at Burnside Ave, and the GO doesn't say which side to open, The CR is to open the side that faces the downtown platform.
Logical Reason #1 -- If I open both sides of the train, this implies that there are people on both sides of the train. As the train starts to move, which side do I watch? The rules state that the CR must watch the platform for 3 car lenghts or the end of the platform,
whichever comes first. He can't watch both sides (unless you know some 2-headed CRs), so only one side opens.
You mean that all trains departing from track M at Main St on the #7 have 2-headed CR's?
Unfortunately (?),no they don't. However wait until someone gets seriously hurt there and see what happens.
There are a myraid of examples too numerous to mention that shows the TA does not care about the customers. They are too mumerous to mention here (one example, not posting signs on the 145th St. platform announcing the aforementioned G.O. Leaving people stranded but thats north of 96th St. those people do not matter). Actions speak louder than words my friend. Oh they may care on paper in some useless office somewhere but it loses something in implementation.
Peace,
Andee
Stations always post G.O. notices but for several reasons they get torn down. People use them to write on, kids tear them down for fun, and I have seen many emotionaly disturbed people rip them down for whatever reason they have running through their heads.
Point well taken, however if this was the case this paricular time why is there no evidence of this on this station platforms. I am sure that ayone who would tear down these signs would not care enough to throw them in a trash can which, are few and far between at this station anyway.
With all the undesirables that hang out in that station I would not be surprised if the notices were used for something else. I do know that notices are posted there because I see them when I make my three trips a day.
You may not have heard, but the City of Newark and the Yankee/Nets are proposing an 18,500 seat arena, and a 25,000 seat soccer stadium, in Downtown Newark -- with a covered walkway from Penn Station Newark.
I'm all for it. I'd like to see a pro soccer game, but I'm not going to try to get to the Meadowlands, with or without a car. And you can't get a seat to the Rangers or Knicks at any reasonable price. I might go to a game in Newark if I could get there on the PATH.
Whitman talks a good game on suburban sprawl, but lets see if she means it. The Meadowlands is an ugly mess -- just the image of NJ that NJ would rather not have. It would be worth a few bucks to put the arena in Newark. Heck, the Nets are willing to put up most of the money. I guess they figure NJ is a rich state, so they have to pay up, whereas NY has lots of poor minorities, so they should get a new ballpark here at public expense.
[Whitman talks a good game on suburban sprawl, but lets see if she means it. The Meadowlands is an ugly mess -- just the image of NJ that NJ would rather not have. It would be worth a few bucks to put the arena in Newark. Heck, the Nets are willing to put up most of the money. I guess they figure NJ is a rich state, so they have to pay up, whereas NY has lots of poor minorities, so they should get a new ballpark here at public expense.]
I hear talk of a raceway at the Meadowlands. Something else for the state to lose money on . . . at this point, each team they lure from New York is another boon for local taxpayers.
Given that I am over here for the second time in a month (and due to return next week after a brief return back to the mother ship back in Chicago), do any of my fellow SubTalkers care about any "shtuff" from Stockholm? I have only ridden the airport express in from Arlanda (the major int'l airport over here) which is way cool. My hotel is directly across from Central (pronounced senn-TRAHL) station, so I can watch all the local and Intercity trains moving in and out. (Left-hand running over here by the way.)
Lemme know.
Check out MetroPlanet's Stockholm page:
http://www.metropla.net/eu/sto/stockhlm.htm
Some info, maps, and links.
-Dave
It'd be cool if you could bring back a map....
-Hank
Hank, if it is not this week, I will be back here next week and will be pleased to bring back whatever maps, etc. I can find. Thanks for the reply.
It is fun to correspond with friends from 4200 miles away.
Charles
I think the C20 they have over there is one of the coolest subway cars ever built. Pictures/info related to that would certainly interest me. It'd be interesting to compare the C20 with the R142 and R143...
Anyone heard if the MTA has any plans to combat the wave of graf/scratchiti that is sure to descend on the new cars when they roll out?
Our spirited young people will go to any length to deface subway cars--especially the first new ones to appear in regular service for almost 15 years.
www.forgotten-ny.com
01/11/2000
Kevin,
I don't know what their plans are. Maybe it's better to keep quiet about it and catch them rather than make it a media field day.
Looking at some interior photos, it seems the interiors won't have those horrible mirrored walls. Could be formica, the R-44 and 46's have them and they have been graffittied big time over the years. With the right chemicals, they seem to clean up rather well and formica seems to be very resistant to scratchitti. I have yet to seem scratched up formica on the 44's and 46's.
Now since scratching up the windows have been a royal pain, I heard the TA was testing some scratch resistant windows on a artic bus. Don't know what the results were, I'm pretty sure they have may have sought help from the glass companies to if this problem is beatable. Time will tell.
Bill Newkirk
Melamine, not formica, on the R-44 and R-46. And I believe the R-142/142A (and subsequently R-143) will have the same material or something similar.
David
01/12/2000
David,
Are you sure melamine is used for the walled interiors of the R-44/46's ? I very sure it's formica, melamine is a veneer usually used with particle board. My friend bought a vanity from Pergament that has a melamine veneer and after a while when water gets under the surface, it starts to bubble.
Any formica experts out there ?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I'm 100% certain it's melamine.
David
Now since scratching up the windows have been a royal pain, I heard the TA was testing some scratch resistant windows on a artic bus. Don't know what the results were, I'm pretty sure they have may have sought help from the glass companies to if this problem is beatable. Time will tell.
The M-4s in Philly have scratch-proof windows that work pretty well. They just have a layer of thin plastic over the windows that gets scratched, but they can peel it off and apply a new one easily - and they do. Seems to work great, and it's cheap and easy...
They've got those on the newly arrived buses here as well. How well it works is not known to me, but I haven't seen too many buses with heavily scratched windows.
-Hank
We'll be out there ready to blast the little @**&&)@S.
Will there be CCTV cameras on the new cars?
SEPTA started testing CCTV in their subway cars about a year ago. I have no idea what happened with that - for all I know it was only a pilot program that fizzled. I don't know much about how it worked.
For anyone who cares, here's two pics of these on the BSS:
One
Two
Here's another two on MFL:
One
Two
Today's Daily News reports that the plastic sheets will indeed be used on the R-142 windows.
Has anyone ever developed Scratch resistant Plastic Windows, or is the MTA-TA too cheap about it?
Has anyone ever developed Scratch resistant Plastic Windows, or is the MTA-TA too cheap about it?
They're too cheap about it.
Plastic is even worse when it comes to scratching. Also, the chemicals used to wash the cars will make the windows opaque. Plexiglas windows were used on the SIR from the mid 70s until the GOH in 1990.
-Hank
you make my point how will cheap metal and plastic last less than 10 years THEN THE R 142s will be SCRAPPED !!!
Breathe, but this time, CLOSE your mouth. Next week: Walking Upright.
-Hank :)
i stopped by the 180th st shops after work peeked my head in and right before my eyes were bright shiney new R142's with Car Equipment people checking the cars over. nice looking since i didn't have much time to go inside to further inspect but I see T/O's are going for R142 training starting Wednesday COOL!
Does anyone know if American Car & Foundry is still in business, or, if no longer in business, is there a successor corporation? TIA, Kevin
ACF is a major manufacturer of freight equipment, but the company's last mass transit order was NYCT's R-28s in 1960-61.
David
However, some sources such as Brian J. Cudahy’s Under the Sidewalks of New York claim that ACF Industries (as it is known today) also built the BMT-IND R-27’s, regardless of most reference books which assert those were built by St. Louis Car Company (which is out of business, having gone so after completing the R-44 order in 1972-73).
The R-27s were most definitely built by St. Louis Car, regardless of what Mr. Cudahy's book may say.
However, some sources such as Brian J. Cudahy’s Under the Sidewalks of New York claim that ACF Industries (as it is known today) also built the BMT-IND R-27’s, regardless of most reference books which assert those were built by St. Louis Car Company (which is out of business, having gone so after completing the R-44 order in 1972-73).
I remember the manufacturer's plates in the R-27's, R-30's and R-30A's - all built by St. Louis Car Co. The R-28's were the last ACF cars on the MYCTS. With the exception of the Budd R-32's and R-32A's and the ACF R-28's, everything from R-27 all the way through R-44 was all built by St. Louis.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There's a new book on ACF. I saw it advertised in Trains Magazine. The price as I remember, is $68. Trains also had a review of the book and a special section on the history of ACF. However, I don't know if the book goes into any detail of its subway car manufacturing. Looks like a book that mostly focuses on ACF's freight car business.
I bought the book, due to my intrest in railroads and manufacturing, It has two pictures of subway cars in it,one picture of an original IRT steel-car, and a picture of a Redbird.
ACF is probably one of the most resilient and long-lived companies in the business. Before the GM monopoly took hold in the 1950s, ACF was also a major manufacturer of Buses and Trackless Trolleys, and in the forties, carried on the Brill name. Their Canadian partner (CCF) evolved into the CCF division of Hawker Siddley, which built CLRVs for Toronto, and many subway cars for Boston, PATH, and Toronto, though none for NYCT. ACF got out of transit before the days when cost overruns and the inability to procure compatible technology made the industry unprofitable.
01/12/2000
It's nice to know that ACF is still in business, although not as a passenger car manufacturer. It's been rumored that the T.A. put Pullman Standard (R-46) and St. Louis Car Co. (R-44) with their low bids.
Bill Newkirk
Are there any specifications on the manufacturers of the "high quality" parts?
Controller: Westinghouse or General Electric?
Brakes: NYAB or WABCO?
You know, that sort of junk.
Try Bombardier's web page. www.bombardier.ca, and follow the links to urban transit vehicles.
-Hank
New lines could be developd using existing ROW'S. Using the IND CLUVER line,a route could leave Church ave.,travel down McDonald ave via subway to the LIRR. Then along the LIRR to Flatbush/Nostrand Hub,and under Flatbush ave. to KINGS PLAZA. The 14th st.line could use the same ROW from the east going southwest to join the new line at the new Flatbush hub station. Added to this, the IRT Nostrand line and new Utica ave. line to KINGS HWY, ALL converging at or near the HUB.
Hi all...Who's going to be on the tour this coming weekend? I was
thinking of heading up, but wanted to make sure it's still on.
What are the risks (legal/other) of this? :D
[Hi all...Who's going to be on the tour this coming weekend? I was
thinking of heading up, but wanted to make sure it's still on.
What are the risks (legal/other) of this?]
I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly plan to be there.
There was a discussion a while back about the legal risks that might be involved. Any risks are minimal because the old tunnel and station remains aren't fenced or otherwise secured and aren't posted against trespassing. In fact, their current ownership is uncertain.
I'll certianly be there.
Mark, did you ever find an easier way down the hill?
I'm bringing rope to hold onto while going down and up the hill. Like a railing on a saircase.
Good idea.
What Time? and where do we meet?, I assume its on sunday, I heard about it in the UTC meeting.
No offense, but there's a clearly marked "Upcoming Events" link on the SubTalk page. Check it out. I don't write these CGI programs for my own entertainment ya know :-)
Upcoming Events
Hopefully, I'll be there too, although right now it looks like my chances are about 50%.
Don't have a heart attack...but I MIGHT be there! [unlees, of course we get a ton of snow on saturday night, and Short Line isn't running..!] North end of the platform right? May I suggest that after we are done (and had a nice HOT cup of coffee!), that we head up to 180th St and see if we can see the 142s? Otherwise , Ill be there with bells on! (and VERY warm coat!) Anybody gonna bring a video cam?
Jr. and I will be there, weather permitting - sorry, no video camera.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We met at the South end last time.
We met at the south end last time.
Just look for a crowd of people on an otherwise empty platform.
--Mark
Anybody gonna bring a video cam?
Me, me, me :)
And for all of you going,
BRING A FLASHLIGHT!
We had nearly 40 people last time and only 3 flashlights!
--Mark
Are regular shoes/sneaks be okay?
Someone should check if the interior is still intact in the Anderson Av control house.
Where was the control house? We may have been in it without knowing it ....
--Mark
At the Harlem River end (Sedgewick), the stairs leading up from the platforms would lead to the control house. At the Anderson Av end, the stairs leading down from the platforms would lead to the control house.
BTW- someone should bring all the IRT passkeys they can find. Let us know if the wooden token booth is still there.
01/14/2000
I don't think there is anything that resembles a fare control area at Anderson-Jerome. The stairs leading up to Anderson is cinder blocked, laundromat upstairs. I didn't see any stairs going down to Jerome since there is a sign shop downstairs. On the Platform that spanned Jerome there was another set of stairs leading to the street, but that became history when the concrete structure over Jerome was demolished about 1963. However we will see what gives since we all will be armed with flashlights.
Bill Newkirk
Suggestion:
Park at the Woodlawn #4 Terminal and
take the #4 Downtown to the
167th Station meeting place.
I'd recommend workboots if you have them.
I was OK last time with sneakers but definitely don't wear regular shoes.
--Mark
01/14/2000
Middletwon Lou,
I wonder if you read my post on this and Sedgwick Ave? Sturdy shoes are better,sneakers aren't so hot. You'll be walking on ballast and climbing up and down catwalks. It's your feet !
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill, I am forewarned.....
Please take some good pictures of the signals and signal cases. Thanks.
We'll try, but I have to admit that there's not much regarding signals to take pictures of.
--Mark
Unfortunately, family obligations keep me from going this time. It's supposed to warm up a bit, maybe to 40, which wouldn't be bad at all. For those of you who didn't go the first time, wear an old coat that you don't care about getting dirty. The steep climb down the enbankment and the tunnel itself are definitely for the surefooted!
Wish I COULD go again; it's a fascinating part of town from a historical and geographical standpoint. Luckily, I'm off Monday, and everything but NJ Transit is supposed to be on a regular weekday schedule. Maybe I'll do Philly; if I get there early enough, I can do the whole MFL, PATCO, Routes 101 and 102 and maybe R8 Fox Chase, the only Regional Rail I haven't been on except for R6 Bala Cynwyd, which doesn't seem worth the effort.
Enjoy the field trip.
Sounds like a nice tour of Philly. :) If you get to Fox Chase, can
you give a report what the Newtown branch looks like? They de-
foliated it to lay some phone cable, and I'm wondering if it's still
clear (not overgrown) around Fox Chase. Thanks!
So the Task Force has recommended replacing the Tappan Zee Bridge with something bigger and better. If Brooklyn wasn't represented buy morons, they'd point to the Manhattan Bridge and say "what about us."
As it is, if they ask for anything in return for helping to fund the new Tappan Zee, it will be another public hospital.
This goes to the heart of national policy, not just local politicians or politics.
I haven't been following this, but I can almost guarantee you that a new Tappan Zee will be paid for overwhelmingly by the Feds. Under supposedly pro-transit President Clinton transit funds have remained flat while highway spending has grown steadily.
Now, this has nothing to do with city/suburbs or city/state. It has to do with modalities.
You want the Feds to pay for the Manhattan Bridge rehab, maybe even Manhattan Bridge replacement? There's a secret formula, just between you and me, Larry: Make Manhattan Bridge part of a new interstate segment, which would logically include the Atlantic Avenue (Brooklyn) Expressway and a Lower Manhattan Expressway to connect the bridge and the Holland Tunnel.
I'm quite serious. This is the way these things are done. Do you find this acceptable? Would the people of the City?
[I haven't been following this, but I can almost guarantee you that a new Tappan Zee will be paid for overwhelmingly by the Feds. Under supposedly pro-transit President Clinton transit funds have remained flat while highway spending has grown steadily.
Now, this has nothing to do with city/suburbs or city/state. It has to do with modalities.
You want the Feds to pay for the Manhattan Bridge rehab, maybe even Manhattan Bridge replacement? There's a secret formula, just between you and me, Larry: Make Manhattan Bridge part of a new interstate segment, which would logically include the Atlantic Avenue (Brooklyn) Expressway and a Lower Manhattan Expressway to connect the bridge and the Holland Tunnel.]
Would the Interstate subterfuge even be necessary? Simply claiming that the Manhattan Bridge is a vital part of the City's and region's road transportation network - which is true - might be enough to open Uncle Sam's pursestrings.
(How to get federal funding for Manny B -- have to be an interstate?)
I'm afraid its uglier than that.
My understanding is that the Feds were willing to pay for a good chunk of a replacement, but that Ed Koch didn't want to take on the NIMBYs, so he hired engineers that came to the "right" conclusion, and we started down the road to disaster.
At least lets not repeat it on the Tappan Zee.
One more thing about federal money. New York State gets a fixed share. Some other states get special money over and above, but New York generally isn't one of them, and with Moynihan already having gotten the Feds to pay back NYS for the Thruway (not adjusted for inflation, I guess), that's it. So if the Feds "pay for it," it will be by diverting funding from the 2nd Avenue subway, or normal replacement of subway trains, or fixing the Gowanus Expressway, or something else.
The good scenario is that Pataki, seeing the support for the full Second Avenue Subway, is trying to get lots of goodies for the rest of the state in exchange, and we'll end up with a grand deal:
1) Second Avenue Subway
2) LIRR to GCT, so Brooklynites can flee to the suburbs again when Manny B goes down.
3) Metro North to Penn, new stop(s) in the East Bronx & West Side.
4) Interstate 86 (Now route 17 to be upgraded).
5) New Tappan Zee, rail connection and more capacity.
6) New road from Watertown to Plattsburg.
7) LGA connection.
Something for everyone (except Brooklyn & SI). I'd be happy (almost).
But that's giving them too much credit. The Republicans representing the suburbs and upstate are out to screw the city any way they can, and the Democrats don't care about transportation because it ain't their pals.
There used to be an I-86 in eastern Connecticut, the old Wilbur Cross Highway from Hartford to the Mass. state line. It became I-84 when that entire stretch was rebuilt. The original I-84 plan was shelved.
There has been one since 1980 (It used to be called I-15W) in Idaho.
There are, IIRC, only 2 interstates that have parts in seperate parts of the country, connected only by other interstates. There are also 2 that will immediately get roadgeeks in an uproar. Mention I238 in California, or I99 (The Bud Schuster Highway) in Pennsylvania.
-Hank
[There are, IIRC, only 2 interstates that have parts in seperate parts of the country, connected only by other interstates]
I-84 is one of them.
Well, with I-86 there will soon be three.
I-76
I-84
I-86
Both I-39 and I-95 have gaps, but they are essentially the same road.
Throw in the loops and roads leading out of cities, and the number balloons (as in I-495 being both the LIE and the Capital Beltway, and there are others in the Midwest and Far West)
But 3 digit interstates are supposed to be duplicated. They are only supposed to be unique to a state.
I-76 in Colorado used to be I-80S. The last segment, which formed the hypotenuse of a triangle whose legs consist of I-25 and I-70, was opened in sections between 1985 and 1993. When all is said and done, Colorado's I-76 provides a link from I-80 to I-70. That last link is nice to have; it allows southbound traffic to avoid the I-25/I-70 junction, formerly known as the Mousetrap.
And I-76 in Pennsylvania/Ohio/New Jersey was also I-80S but I believe the change was made earlier.
And I-76 also connects points east on I-80 (like New York) with a more direct Denver routing.
I think I-76 on the PA Turnpike was always I-76, but the I-84 segment that splits off I-80 in Utah used to be called I-80N.
[The good scenario is that Pataki, seeing the support for the full Second Avenue Subway, is trying to get lots of goodies for the rest of the state in exchange, and we'll end up with a grand deal:
1) Second Avenue Subway
2) LIRR to GCT, so Brooklynites can flee to the suburbs again when Manny B goes down.
3) Metro North to Penn, new stop(s) in the East Bronx & West Side.
4) Interstate 86 (Now route 17 to be upgraded).
5) New Tappan Zee, rail connection and more capacity.
6) New road from Watertown to Plattsburg.
7) LGA connection.
Something for everyone (except Brooklyn & SI). I'd be happy (almost).
But that's giving them too much credit. The Republicans representing the suburbs and upstate are out to screw the city any way they can, and the Democrats don't care about transportation because it ain't their pals.]
Yeah. It will all happen, except for the parts that benefit the City.
Would the Interstate subterfuge even be necessary?
Some kind of grand plan would be. The last thing the Feds want to do is to pay to repair infrastructure.
But when you show them that you're willing to meatax your city to build a NEW highway, they just drool.
Extend the interstate thru the Holland Tunnel, built a Expressway above Canal Street(Too bad if it is elevatored, the locals there are not even citizens most of them) across the Manny Bridge to connect to the BQE All Interstate
are you john rocker in disguise?
The road should also connect to the Williamsburg Bridge and go across it to the Bushwick Expressway.
Hey, what's to stop the City from declairing Canal Street an Interstate Highway, and claiming fed dollars to repair the Manhattan Bridge??? What are the guide lines for an interstate highway anyway??? Let's get creative people!!!
Hey, what's to stop the City from declairing Canal Street an Interstate Highway, and claiming fed dollars to repair the Manhattan Bridge??? What are the guide lines for an interstate highway anyway??? Let's get creative people!!!
Well, gotta get rid of them pesky traffic lights and intersections. This could be done in typical fashion. Just barracade all the cross streets.
That's not creative enought. What if they got rid of all the traffic lights and then had "construction crews" with a flag man at every intersection to wave the traffic along? Then when the fed complains NYC can tell them "we're working on the problem".
Isn't 34th St. posted as I-495 (or something similar) to connect the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels?
> 34th St. posted as I-495
Might still be posted but that doesn't mean it is. The NJ portion of what was 495 got demoted to a State Route. I think the LI Expressway did also.
-Dave
Might still be posted but that doesn't mean it is. The NJ portion of what was 495 got demoted to a State Route. I think the LI Expressway did also.
According to MS MapPoint software, which is part of Office 2000, The 495 is a state road from Manhattan until it reaches I-278, the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway. From that point all the way east, it has the Interstate symbol and is I-495.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I-495 got its "interstate" status from the BQE all the way out to its eastern terminus a number of years ago. Some of the signs haven't changed with the times.
--Mark
The road west of the BQE is a state route, but still signed as an interstate. The only way to know the difference is to look at the reference markers.
Actually, the Long Island Expressway is a full interstate for its entire length. It used to be only up the the Clearview, and then east fom there it became a state road. It was made a full interstate more than 20 years ago.
Actually, the Long Island Expressway is a full interstate for its entire length. It used to be only up the the Clearview, and then east fom there it became a state road. It was made a full interstate more than 20 years ago.
When I traversed it in the late 1970's, it was I-495 all the way. I got on at Queens Blvd. and Woodhaven Blvd. and took it all the way out to Riverhead. BTW, I'll bet that the quaint wooden country store out there is long gone. When the expressway ended, I turned around and took it all the way home. Coming back, I wanted to see just how fast my 1965 Chrysler Newport with its 383 V-8 engine would go, so I floored it and kept it that way for about 10 minutes. I topped out at 97 MPH. Faster than a speeding D-Type, more powerful than an SBK locomotive, its a train, its a Bluebird. Its BMT LINES!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
wasn't route i-78 supposed to cross manhatan at canal st to tie into i-278.(the bqe)
As I stated in a earlier Post. Build a elevated Express way from the Holland Tunnel to the Manhatten Bridge, 1 exit and entrance on each end West Side to and From Jersey, East Side, 2 and from Brooklyn. If the locals complain, tell them that this is for the betterment of the country, most of them are not citizens anyway and do not vote. It will make them feel more like Hong Kong, Taipai anyway where homes and business or near overpasses of highways
My favor section is on I-95 when it passes through Washington Heights.
It goes through a long bright tunnel that passes under the Washington Bridge bus terminal and two very tall apartment buildings. The buildings are right on top of the highway. COOL! Nothing like it.
In response to #1Brighton Exp Bob. What is that is done in Brighton Beach? White people come from overseas too so don't just make comments like that. White people don't vote all the time too you know.
But are they smuggled in storeage bins on ships, charged 40K to get here, the women made prostitutes, and the men indentured servents for 20 years to live 30 in a room, or snake across the border deom the South 20 in a van paying people to smuggle them in, bringing in TB which was all wiped out in the USA in the 70s/ My wife is of color and Asian. I have a Afro-American Brother In Law who is the nicest guy in the world, and is a great friend. And both get sick reading about the undocumented aliens. I have a single sister in law in Hong Kong who has a good job, and has to get so many affidavids from sponsors and employers, to get a Visitors Visa to visit her sisters and Mom in the USA. So if I spout off, I have every right to, because every wet back in this country hurts my family members in seeing their loved ones.
sorry i am a flushing # 7 fan !! i also like the A train to far rockways nice trip !!! # 7 is still NUMBER ONE...
and those beautiful world fair 33 - 36 s...... and the >>>RAILFAN WINDOW<<<< !!!!!
execpt when a 18 wheeler breaks down and your stuck eating fumes
Exhaust fumes always settle in that cut (I-95 through Washington Heights), making it a not so pleasant experience to pass through there. They should mount some big fans along the walls of the cut on 178th or 179th St. to blow fresh air down there! BTW, there are at least four apartment buildings there, not just two. Or is it six - two each on Audubon, St. Nicholas and Wadsworth Aves.?
Those are the Bridge Apartments. There are four buildings. Pity the people who live there, since they breathe auto exhaust instead of air. Here is a quote from "New York 1960":
"One of the city's most unusual housing projects, Brown & Guenther's Bridge Apartments (1963), was built straddling the new roadway (I95). The project's four thirty-two story aluminum-clad north-south slabs, housing 960 families, were not only banal but were subject to appalling environmental conditions: noxious fumes from the traffic below rose from the highway that separated the pairs of slabs, rendering the balconies useless and the apartments almost uninhabitable."
i guess you are.
You're forgetting Bobby DeNiro. ;)
That's what Bob Moses wanted--the Lower Manhattan Expressway (Lomax?) from the Holland Tunnel to the Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges, mostly between Grand and Broome Sts. I gather nearly everyone else thought it was a dumb idea, but it wasn't definitively killed until the Soho Historic District was designated.
Well, let me get into this. Also courtesy of 'The roads of Metro New York':
Listed among the unbuilt in NYC are the 125st Expressway, which would connect the Triboro Bridge with a proposed crossing of the Hudson River; the Mid-Manhattan Expressway (I495), which would have connected the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels, and included both a proposed 3rd tube for the latter, and an amazing air rights scheme (killed officially in 1971 by Gov Rockerfeller); the Park Ave Express Highway (as NY22) from GCT to the Grand Concourse (talk about killing the NYC!); and the Lower Manhattan Expressway that would have connected the Holland Tunnel to the Willy B (I78) and eventually to an expressway in Brooklyn, and a spur to the Manny B (I478); this was also killed in 1971 by Rocky, but was previously demapped in 1969. I478 was enetually assigned to the no also dead Westway project and the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, which is unsigned but designated as I478.
-Hank
The I-495 designation east of the Clearview Expressway (I-295) was made official in late 1983, thanks to the work of Senators D'Amato and Moynihan. Shields appeared on this section of the Long Island Expressway in the spring of 1986.
More info on my LIE page at http://www.nycroads.com/roads/long-island/
34st is signed with 'TO I495' signs. I495 no longer exists in NJ (the access to the Lincoln Tunnel is now NJ 495) and I495 in NY ends at the interchange with I278. From I278 through the Midtown Tunnel, it is NY 495.
From 'The Roads of Metro New York':
In 1989, the LIE west of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway had its Interstate status "officially" stripped. The reason was that officials came to the realization that I-495 in Manhattan would never be built. At that time, I-495 in New Jersey (with which the LIE was supposed to connect via the Mid-Manhattan Expressway) was "demoted" to NJ 495. However, for the purpose of continuity, the LIE in this area kept all Interstate signs: recently installed directional and guide signs in this area have I-495 shields.
Officially, the I-495 designation was removed west of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway (I-278) according to the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) log in the 1980's. However, for NYSDOT and NYCDOT purposes, there are I-495 shields and reference markers (the little green signs) along the LIE from the BQE west to the Queens-Midtown Tunnel.
See my LIE page at http://www.nycroads.com/roads/long-island/
The signs say "TO" I-495 both ways on 34th St. This would normally mean that, while the street/road in question is not itself an interstate, it connects to one. But as "BMT Lines" points out, even this is no longer true.
I think the signs might have a small "To" sign above the "495" in a similar fashion that the NJ Turnpike does (for I-95) south of exit 7A.
--Mark
Making the Manhattan Bridge part of the interstate network was proposed in the 1960s Lower Manhattan Expressway plan. The bridge was to be designated I-478. On some road maps today, the Battery Tunnel is designated I-478, but is not identified as such on any highway roadsigns in Manhattan or Brooklyn.
For detailed info - http://www.nycroads.com/roads/lower-manhattan/
A Lower Manhattan Expressway today would eat up every cent of transportation funds New York State gets, and then some. You'd either have to build an elevated route (lots of expense condemning buildings for the on-off ramps, let alone the cost of defending against NIMBY lawsuits)or you could put it underground, which would simply involve the cost of relocating the A/C/E/1/2/3/4/5/6/R/N/J/M/Z tracks and or station mezzanines in the Canal Street area between the Manny B and the Holland Tunnel. Bill Gates would have trouble funding that one.
NIMBYS inthat area won t fight it, too used to the govt telling them what to do
You want the Feds to pay for the Manhattan Bridge rehab, maybe even Manhattan Bridge replacement?
First off, the Feds are paying 80% for all the bridge rehabs: Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburgh and Queensboro.
The Tappan Zee may not be eligible for federal funding because of the toll. Any new bridge that might be built as part of the Interstate highway program would have to be free. I don't know if the Thruway could tolerate that.
The problem with the East River bridges is not in replacing them. Building replacement bridges would require vast rights of way for the approaches on either side of the river. This cost problem makes any new bridge in NY highly dubious. Even Bob Moses had to use military bases for his last two bridges: the Throggs Neck and Verrazano. He could not afford a ROW over civilian property.
The second problem with the East River bridges rehabs is avoid as much disruption as possible during reconstruction. Suppose two or more of these bridges were completely closed for 2 - 4 years. That is not a workable solution. So, we are left to spreading the pain over decades. One problem is that some of the new work may not last the twenty-five year renovation cycle. Some of the 1982 replacement roadways on the Queensboro are starting to delaminate. Their design life was supposed to be 35 years.
All the East River bridges have been damaged by the rail traffic they carried. It's the primary damage for the Manhattan and WillyB. The only guaranteed long term solution to the Manhattan Bridge is to remove the rail tracks. The cost for new rail tunnel could come from the Feds. The engineers underestimated the magnitude of the damage, when they scoped the problem in the late 1970's. The WillyB problems may be even more serious, if the proposed fix does not work. This bridge was closed due to beam and suspension cable corrosion damage. This is not the main problem. The towers are bending towards each other because the center span weight was not counterbalanced by the side span weights - as was done on both the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges.
(The main problem -- the towers are bending toward each other because the center weight is not counterbalanced by the side span weights).
YIKES! I thought Willie B could be fixed because it didn't have the rail-on-the-side tortion problem. It has ANOTHER stupid design defect? Where is your information coming from?
The FEDs may pay 80 percent, but they won't spend extra in New York just because New York spends extra. Any money spent on a replacement tunnel would be diverted from somewhere else.
The WillieB can be fixed. Its problem is obvous, if you look at it in profile. The span between the towers is suspended from the main cables. The side pans (from the towers to the anchorages) have no suspenders - it is supported from underneath. This means there is a net force on the towers towards the center of the river as well as downward, if there are heavy loads. Maybe they should have kept using gate cars.
For many years the principal design shortcoming was thought to be not using galvanized wire for the main cables. Everyone was worried about corrosion. However, the integral oil bath appears to have held up and there is little evidence of cable failure. Everyone was so concerned about possible cable corrosion that they completely ignored the long term effects of the unbalanced loads on the towers.
They will essentially be doing a replacement in place. The will be building new towers over and outside of the old ones. The Feds really wanted to replace the bridge an build a brand new one. The WillieB was the first all steel suspension bridge.
BTW the QB is in worse shape.
What is wrong with the QB? It's spans are short, between piers. How can you screw THAT up?
Its clear that the problem is political. All the post 1930 bridges have tolls. If these bridges had tolls, their users would demand that they be replaced. Since they are "free" as long as they stand, no matter how much money is poured into them, people want to keep them.
Toll the damn bridges. Build tunnels, starting with subway tunnels.
What is wrong with the QB? It's spans are short, between piers. How can you screw THAT up?
First off, the QB was the longest cantilevered bridge when it was completed. It sort of got that title by default. There was a similarly designed and slightly longer bridge in Quebec that failed one year before the QB was completed.
The QB design review that followed as a result of the Quebec Bridge collapse revealed among other things: that the QB did not adequately account for wind loading; no provision was made for weight of snow and some critical structural eyebars carried 50% more load than originally thought. The solution has been dead load and live load shedding. A process that continues to this day.
The bridge's original plans called for 4 elevated tracks on the upper level as well as two cantilevered pedestrian walks. Two el tracks and the cantilevered pedestrian walks were never build. The current rehab, started in 1982, eliminated one traffic lane on the lower level and the 1929 pedestrian walkway on the upper level to reduce weight. Moreover, while the bridge has 10 total traffic lanes - only 9 can be used and any one time.
I can assure you that the front page headline of "Not The New York Times" evoked forced chuckles from DOT officials concerned with the bridges.
The ironic thing is that the most recent bridge failures have been along toll roads. The Mianus River bridge in CT and a bridge on the NY Thruway about 15 years ago. They seem to catch the free bridges before they fail. My read on the TZ is that the major damage is below the water line.
The MB is fundamentally sound structurally. It may fall apart because cracking but it won't fall down. Its problems are twofold: how to replace cracked members (non-structural) without completely disrupting traffic and how to prevent new cracks from developing after cracked members are replaced. I don't believe that the 2nd problem can be solved which is why I feel that a 4 track rail tunnel is inevitable.
The WB will become sound structurally. Stronger materials will replace those that are failing.
The QB is fundamentally unsound. However, there is no way to replace or strengthen the overloaded members without disassembling the bridge piece by piece. One innovative design feature that has probably saved the bridge is that they used nickel-steel (an early form of stainless) in the most critical structural members.
[The QB design review that followed as a result of the Quebec Bridge collapse revealed among other things: that the QB did not adequately account for wind loading; no provision was made for weight of snow and some critical structural eyebars carried 50% more load than originally thought. The solution has been dead load and live load shedding. A process that continues to this day.]
Why don't they just add lifeboats?
I can assure you that the front page headline of "Not The New York Times" evoked forced chuckles from DOT officials concerned with the bridges.
I have this issue. Pounding feet from the running of the NYC Marathon that year caused the bridge to fall into the East River. It even had a photo.
--Mark
It should be the opposite. They should remove all the tolls on all the bridges and tunnels!!! $7 round trip ($6 with E-Z Pass) is insane and highway robbery!!!!!
It should be the opposite. They should remove all the tolls on all the bridges and tunnels!!! $7 round trip ($6 with E-Z Pass) is insane and highway robbery!!!!!
That is insane. I can't believe it. When I started driving in the 1970's, tolls on the bridges and in the tunnels was 75¢. I remember when they raised it to a buck. Then again, the fare was only 60¢ when I left. Hey, $1.50 is alot for a subway ride also.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Heck, I can remeber when the tolls were 25 cents. (I wasn't driving at the time). We all rememeber the subway at 15 cents and I'm sure many a sub-talker go back to the nickel days.
Heck, I can remeber when the tolls were 25 cents. (I wasn't driving at the time). We all rememeber the subway at 15 cents and I'm sure many a sub-talker go back to the nickel days.
I don't remember 25¢ tolls because my parents didn't drive. When I started driving, they were already 75¢. I very clearly remember the 15¢ fare and the 15¢ pizza. I remember nickel pinball. Then, it was raised to a dime. Baseball cards were 10¢ for 5 with a stick of gum, or 10¢ for 10 cards without the gum. I remember the 10¢ water guns. They were the derringer-size ray guns. I remember the 10 and 15¢ kites and the 25¢ Spaldines and Pennsy Pinkies. I remember the 10¢ bottle of soda with the deposit and return. It was back then when I got my first glimpse of a shiny new "silver" train with dark blue doors and a light blue interior. Never in my life had I seen anything so modern! I was on an R-27 when I saw the R-32 go by on the other side. It was on the Broadway BMT subway, of course. For some reason, it always seemed that the newest cars debuted on the locals first, not the expresses. Then things reversed - the newer cars on the expresses and the older cars on the locals. Needless to say, the day I first saw an R-32, I didn't get to ride it. Another day, I would only get a closer look at one laid up on the Brighton Line at the Ocean Parkway station, on the express track. I made my parents get off the R-27 QB on the way to Coney Island on a Saturday, just so I could look at the new train. I looked at the outside, then I peered in the windows to get a look at the interior. Finally, I got to ride one. I don't remember what line it was, only that it was on the Broadway subway on a local. I wanted to forgo an express ride on an R-27, just to get a ride on the new R-32. My parents thought I was being rediculous. Ah!, What did they know?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I never paid much attention to the new trains when I was young. We mostly rode the IND and the R1-10 types. But I will never forget my first experience on a brand new R-44. It was my first week at Stuyvesant in 1972. We took the LL from 1st Avenue to 6th to get the F train. After and old klunky KK passed I saw this brand new futuristic shiney train pulle in with the funny orange seats. We all had a blast everytime the ding dong went as the conductor closed the doors. It was still early September, so it was great to finally be in and air-conditioned car. And since we had our subway passes, we didn't have to pay the 35 cents to ride. We were in transit heaven!
. And since we had our subway passes, we didn't have to pay the 35 cents to ride. We were in transit heaven!
The only time that I had a subway pass was in 1969 when I had to go to summer school because I missed 3 months of the spring term due to injury. My regular HS was Newtown on 90th St. and 50th Ave., off of Corona Ave. It was too close to qualify for a subway pass. I used to buy a monthly Triboro pass for $2. I mostly used to walk. Anyway, when I went to summer school that year, Newtown was not open. I had to go to Bryant in Sunnyside. That was located near the 46th St. station on the EE and GG. Needless to say, I met another railfan in class and we rode the trains together. I rode the Q's on Ol' Myrt just once in Aug. 1969. Its a good thing that I did, because just 2 months later, Ol' Myrt would be no more.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"We all rememeber..."
Speak for yourself!
If the tolls are removed, the transit systems will immediately go to hell, as will the bridges several years down the road. And you've got FREE choices in every other boro (Queens to the Bronx requires travel via Manhattan) but Staten Island. The only way to get a car ON Staten Island is via a toll crossing (SI Residents get a discount on the $7 one-way toll of $3.20 with EZPass.) SI Ferry is $3 (both ways), the PA bridges are all $4 Staten Island-bound, and the VZ is a one-way toll Staten Island-bound of $7.
-Hank
(Get rid of tolls)
Sounds like a Republican position. Republicans are against socialism, except in two cases, the military and the automobile. Come to think of it, aren't those the only two cases in which Democrats are in favor of market prices?
The bridges and tunnels into NYC are one of the few cases where I believe tolls can be justified, because tolls that are sufficiently high serve to control traffic entering the city and thereby reducing congestion on city streets. Personally, I'd like to see the tolls raised to $15 or $20 on the bridges and tunnels, in conjunction with an initiative to build an additional rail tunnel into Manhattan from New Jersey and the establishment of passenger service to Staten Island from New Jersey over the old SIR North Shore serving an expanded Staten Island Ferry. Taking an increase from $4 to $20 at the Hudson River crossings as an example, I think that the fivefold increase in per-vehicle toll would cut traffic through these routes by approximately 40%, of which a significantly greater percentage would now be bus traffic. The bus toll discount would also be eliminated, so buses would also pay $20. This would have the effect of significantly reducing traffic congestion in the gateway areas, and reducing traffic in Manhattan by approximately 5% overall. Gross toll revenue would approximately triple, and net revenue would probably jump about 150%, given that there are some fixed costs of maintenance unrelated to the number of vehicles making the crossing. The additional toll revenue should be sufficient to fund the new rail initiatives and pay for the additional operating expense of the Staten Island Ferry. There's even another Jersey alternative, given that ferry operation is part of this plan - I know where there's a nice unused railroad terminal in Jersey City that could easily have ferry service restored....
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
First of all, as a railfan I usually take the train to Manhattan. As a cop, I also ride the subways and LIRR for free which is an added incentive. However if I have to go at night, especially if I'm returning late and I have my family with me I take my car and I feel I have a right to take car without paying ridiculous tolls. Period. Who are you or anyone else to tell me I can't do that? NYC is not private property and I have a registered, insured vehicle and I'm properly licensed. High tolls won't really alleviate the daytime traffic considerably anyway as the vast majority of vehicles are commercial trucks and transit vehicles (Buses and cabs) If you don't believe that check out my Live World Webcam Site and click on the 5th Av or the Times Square Cams during the daytime and see for yourself. And besides Manhattan, I think it is obscene that a Long Islander must pay $3.50 to enter the mainland. And don't tell me about the 59th St Bridge/Third Av Bridge combo, why should I have to pay that?
I also find it the most interesting that the people who push for this the most on this forum are people who either don't drive (so don't care) or people from out of town. (In places that wouldn't even think of having any toll over $1.)
I drive into the City on occasion, albeit weekends only, so I'd be stuck with the proposed tolls too. Tolls can be a powerful disincentive to driving, though, and given the gridlock that consumes much of Manhattan during the week I'm in favor of doing anything that will (1) reduce traffic and (2) benefit mass transit, be it rail or otherwise. In most of Manhattan, during the week, there is little justification for a private automobile. Commuters coming in from New Jersey or Long Island have alternatives, alternatives that need to be made more attractive than they currently are. Raising the tolls combines (1) a disincentive for driving with (2) a revenue source to pay a good alternative, in this case rail and ferries. The gridlock situation is only going to get worse unless forceful action is taken to control it. There's no room to widen the streets; there's no alternative for getting supplies to and from businesses; but there are alternatives for getting people around town. Hence, these alternatives need to be improved as incentives to use them, and disincentives need to be provided as well to curb less-necessary usage of the streets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mr. Mouse hits it on the head. There is only so much room on the street in Manhattan. While many people would like to drive there, not everyone can. So how do we decide who gets to drive to Manhattan?
1) Price. Toll all approaches, and raise the price until congestion goes down. Those willing and able to pay more drive, the rest of us use transit. Tolls could be adjusted by time of day.
2) Time. Let everyone drive in until the traffic is so bad many people can't stand it. Those who can stand it get to drive. Those who can't stand it pursue other alternatives.
This is part of the current stragegy by default. Unfortunatley, some of those who insist on driving but can't stand the traffic may be CEOs of companies employing thousands, who may move the businesses out. Ambulances and fire trucks are also caught in the traffic. The good news, for a politician, is that no one has to make a decision.
3) Privilege. Allow certain influential groups to drive in, but keep out others.
This is also part of the current strategy. Since it hasn't tolled the free bridges, the city has AN OFFICIAL ZONING POLICY OF NOT ALLOWING ANY MORE PARKING SOUTH OF 96th STREET! The idea was if there is nowhere to park, you won't drive in. In practice, you get more and more illegal parking and double parking.
This does nothing to discourage through traffic driving out of its way to avoid tolls (ie. Canal Street gridlock). And it is undermined by government parking passes that allow the holders to park anywhere they want for free. The City, especially the Police Department, hands these things out as perks by the thousands. An unpublished City Planning study found that 14 PERCENT of those driving into Manhattan had passes to park on the street.
I vote for price.
It's one thing to say that people should have necessities like education, food, water, shelter, and health care regardless of ability to pay. I agree with that. But driving to the most congested spot in the U.S. with extensive transit available? PAY FOR IT. The rich can afford it and would probably prefer the toll to being stuck in traffic; most of the rest of us would benefit from the revenues (through lower taxes or more spending on other things). The only losers would be those with the free on-street parking passes.
Tolls are required not only for transit, but for the roads and bridges themselves. The East River Bridges are like an old car you give to your 16 year old son. "You can have it for free," you tell him, "and I'll pay to keep fixing it, but once it wears out and you need a new one you'll have to pay for it." Given that incentive, the son will no doubt insist on keeping that car running until long after the rain pours in through rust holes in the ceiling and out through rust holes in the floor.
There is no question that new East River Bridges (or more likely tunnels) would have tolls. So we will end up paying tens of millions of interest every year forever on bonds used to keep the bridges up a little longer, because they are "free." Nothing is free.
My boss suggests a new tunnel beginning with an improved interchange with the BQE at Kent/Wythe, with a toll plaza and mouth in the Navy Yard, emerging under the East River Park onto South Street facing south with a ramp up onto the FDR, the southern part of which would be bulked up to permit trucks.
Trucks and buses would be banned from the Manny B and Willie B, reducing the stress. They'd use the Brooklyn Battery or this other tunnel. Through trucks would run up onto the FDR and around to the Holland Tunnel on West Street, bypassing the heart of Manhattan. I think its a good idea.
Larry, first you propose transit cuts. Now you are also for unrealistic toll increases. With both of these, I predict the death of New York City within 3 years. As I responded to Anon_e_mouse, what about those who ship goods and freight? Food is not delivered to supermarkets and restaurants on the subway. What about those who provide services and make home and office calls, like plumbers, electricians, computer technicians? think of the huge economic losses as business fold before your eyes. People will leave the city in droves. New York would die a very quick economic death. New Jersey would benefit greatly from something like this, as businesses and private residents would move across the river in droves.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[This is also part of the current strategy. Since it hasn't tolled the free bridges, the city has AN OFFICIAL ZONING POLICY OF NOT ALLOWING ANY MORE PARKING SOUTH OF 96th STREET! The idea was if there is nowhere to park, you won't drive in. In practice, you get more and more illegal parking and double parking.
This does nothing to discourage through traffic driving out of its way to avoid tolls (ie. Canal Street gridlock). And it is undermined by government parking passes that allow the holders to park anywhere they want for free. The City, especially the Police Department, hands these things out as perks by the thousands. An unpublished City Planning study found that 14 PERCENT of those driving into Manhattan had passes to park on the street.
I vote for price.]
I agree--and it seems to me that the prices should be determined on an auction basis by usage of an aggregate capacity which sums the cost of both a service artery and the subway and includes allowable pollution levels in the mix. That means in essence, that truckers, cabs, and individual drivers would pick up most of the tab for bulding and maintaining roads and subway tracks, with indididual subway and bus riders paying a much lower fee as part of their fare. When traffic or pollution in a given area reached a predetermined level, new subway capacity would be added, financed by these fees.
As I recall, the braindead ban on parking facilities was part of the City's settlement with the EPA back in the seventies.
. . . So how do you get one of those parking passes?
(How do we get one of those parking passes)
Beats me. Guess you have to be in one of the clubs. What burns me up is the City of New York is handing out these perks to high and not so high officials, and members of politically influential unions. Meanwhile, it refuses to pay for my Metrocard (as my wife's employer does) and has dragged its feet on even having me pay for it on a pre-tax basis.
To reply to Peter Rosa's point. We know that transportation has been underfunded in New York -- because the effects of underfunding it are long term rather than short term, and the construction unions (the only people with power and an incentive to fight for more) like any monopoly would rather have less work at higher prices than more jobs at fair prices.
The only way the transporation system -- road and rail -- will get enough money to improve is to have a dedicated revenue stream that can't be grabbed (well, I guess if the state can "sell" road to the Thruway Authority anything can be grabbed). Transportation will have to pay for itself. That means more tolls and auto fees, since autos are dumping all the pollution and taking up all the space. It also means that keeping the fare low cannot be transit priority #1, if we want to have a transit system worth riding in 2050.
[Beats me. Guess you have to be in one of the clubs. What burns me up is the City of New York is handing out these perks to high and not so high officials, and members of politically influential unions. Meanwhile, it refuses to pay for my Metrocard (as my wife's employer does) and has dragged its feet on even having me pay for it on a pre-tax basis.
To reply to Peter Rosa's point. We know that transportation has been underfunded in New York -- because the effects of underfunding it are long term rather than short term, and the construction unions (the only people with power and an incentive to fight for more) like any monopoly would rather have less work at higher prices than more jobs at fair prices.
The only way the transporation system -- road and rail -- will get enough money to improve is to have a dedicated revenue stream that can't be grabbed (well, I guess if the state can "sell" road to the Thruway Authority anything can be grabbed). Transportation will have to pay for itself. That means more tolls and auto fees, since autos are dumping all the pollution and taking up all the space. It also means that keeping the fare low cannot be transit priority #1, if we want to have a transit system worth riding in 2050.]
Unfortunately, I think you're right. And New York City will have to take on an unfair burden.
I think that a fair combination of local tolls and transit revenues would do the trick, though it begs the question of how to charge people who don't enter or leave Manhattan. You could charge parking fees, but that would double charge commuters without charging people travelling through the City.
My secret plan for parking on NYC streets: inflatable fire hydrants, left in my usual parking spots, stowed in the trunk when I use them . . .
My secret plan for parking on NYC streets: inflatable fire hydrants, left in my usual parking spots, stowed in the trunk when I use them . . .
How about diplomatic plates for the car?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Naw, too much, abuse of them.
[My secret plan for parking on NYC streets: inflatable fire hydrants, left in my usual parking spots, stowed in the trunk when I use them . . .
How about diplomatic plates for the car?]
Too easy! And what if the country you choose turns out to be at war with Zambia?
Too easy! And what if the country you choose turns out to be at war with Zambia?
Who cares!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[In most of Manhattan, during the week, there is little justification
for a private automobile. Commuters coming in from New Jersey or Long Island have alternatives, alternatives that need to be made more attractive than they currently are. Raising the tolls combines
(1) a disincentive for driving with (2) a revenue source to pay a good alternative, in this case rail and ferries.]
Bridge and tunnel tolls are rather unfair for people just passing through Manhattan. For instance, to get to parts of New Jersey from Long Island, it is easiest for me to use the Midtown and Lincoln tunnels, or the Manhattan Bridge and the Holland Tunnel. Trying to discourage me from driving in Manhattan (a sensible goal if you're talking about everyday commuters) is pointless in that it's not my destination and alternative routes are inconvenient.
I understand your position, Peter. Unfortunately, some folks are going to be financially inconvenienced no matter what. Perhaps the toll should be REMOVED from the Verrazano as part of this change, or at least not increased like the others, to encourage a traffic shift to the cross-Staten Island route for those just seeking to get from one side to the other. (Keep the high toll on the bridges entering from New Jersey.) That avoids bringing traffic into Manhattan and would certainly appeal to the trucks headed from Brooklyn and Long Island. I think it needs to be considered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Bridge and tunnel tolls are rather unfair for people just passing through Manhattan. For instance, to get to parts of New Jersey from Long Island, it is easiest for me to use the Midtown and Lincoln tunnels, or the Manhattan Bridge and the Holland Tunnel. Trying to discourage me from driving in Manhattan (a sensible goal if you're talking about everyday commuters) is pointless in that it's not my destination and alternative routes are inconvenient.]
It seems to me that part of the problem is that alternative routes shouldn't be inconvenient. The City has a hard time handling the traffic that should really be there--is it really the City's fault that New Jersey won't build a bypass highway or NYS won't build the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge, etc.? I seem to remember reading that 30% of the traffic in the City is through traffic, and that doesn't really make sense.
Of course, some through traffic would be necessary in any case, but since it eats up as much infrastructure as commutation I'm not sure I buy the argument that the drivers should pay less.
Of all the places to bring through traffic, Manhattan makes the least sense. For Peter Manhattan may be the most direct route. But many people drive out of their way to drive through Manhattan to avoid tolls, and that makes no sense at all.
I do it myself. If there were tolls on all the bridges, I would never ever take the Brooklyn Bridge. I'd take the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, or go up the BQE and over the Triboro. But, if I have time, I go out of my way and contribute to traffic and pollution to avoid a $3.00 toll. And Canal Street is jammed with trucks for that reason.
With tolls, you could build new tunnels to take the trains and trucks off the bridges. You could also build park-n-ride lots for Long Island to NYC commuters. You could add a lane to the Belt, and to the Staten Island Expressway for a southern by pass. Etc.
[Of all the places to bring through traffic, Manhattan makes the least sense. For Peter Manhattan may be the most direct route. But many people drive out of their way to drive through Manhattan to
avoid tolls, and that makes no sense at all.
With tolls, you could build new tunnels to take the trains and trucks off the bridges. You could also build park-n-ride lots for Long Island to NYC commuters. You could add a lane to the Belt, and to the Staten Island Expressway for a southern by pass. Etc.]
Long Islanders headed for New Jersey or other points south and west will still get stuck paying NYC tolls. Avoiding Manhattan is still costly thanks to the tolls on the Verranzano.
I still maintain that all tolls should be eliminated except for those needed to pay off bridge/tunnel construction bonds (and maybe even then). Make massive, end-of-the-world style cuts in social service and health care spending. There'll be a big adjustment period, but the upshot is that the city will be flush with cash, for transit and many other worthy purposes, and tolls will be utterly unnecessary. Sounds impossible? It works just fine in the Sunbelt. It can work here too.
Long Islanders headed for New Jersey or other points south and west will still get stuck paying NYC tolls. Avoiding Manhattan is still costly thanks to the tolls on the Verranzano.
I still maintain that all tolls should be eliminated except for those needed to pay off bridge/tunnel construction bonds (and maybe even then). Make massive, end-of-the-world style cuts in social service and health care spending. There'll be a big adjustment period, but the upshot is that the city will be flush with cash, for transit and many other worthy purposes, and tolls will be utterly unnecessary. Sounds impossible? It works just fine in the Sunbelt. It can work here too.
I totally agree.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I found lots of toll roads in Florida.
Anyway, Peter, I hear the same arguments here in NYC all the time. About housing (make it free, its a right!). About water. About food. About medical care -- (patients rights, no copays!)
I like socialism for people's basic needs. Beyond that, I'll go with capitalism.
I found lots of toll roads in Florida.
Have you compared the tolls on the Floorida roads with those in NY? We still have tolls for 25¢ and 50¢. Look what it costs to cross a lousy East River bridge or tunnel! Also, I'm just acquainted with tolls in South Florida. They might even still have 10¢ tolls upstate. Bad example, Larry.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(They might even still have 10¢ tolls upstate.)
Myself, I'd be a little uspet if I had to stop to put 10 cents in the basket.
Jon
Any oldtimers out there who remember the .10 toll on the Southern State Pkwy (later raised to .25) in Valley Stream where the State Police Barracks are now? Used to mess up traffic for miles. There was also a toll on the Loop Pkway just W/O the Meadowbrook Pkway.
I remember that toll. The got rid of it in the mid 1970's. I had not realized it was ever raised from a dime to a quarter. They must have taken it down shortly after the raise.
If they were able to get rid of the tolls on the Hutch and Saw Mill and Connecticut portion of I-95, it seems to make sense that most of the rest of the tolls can be done away with and the bridge tunnel tolls should be lowered.
BTW I don't think its fair that a Staten Island resident can get a round trip over the Verrazano with E-Pass for $3.25, and the rest of us have to pay $6.00.
I remember when they raised it to a quarter they changed a number of streets in Valley Stream to One-Way to cut down on people getting off to avoid the toll.
I remember when they raised it to a quarter they changed a few of streets in Valley Stream to One-Way to cut down on people getting off to avoid the toll.
[BTW I don't think its fair that a Staten Island resident can get a round trip over the Verrazano with E-Pass for $3.25, and the rest of us have to pay $6.00.]
$7.00, actually. It really isn't unfair to give Staten Islanders an EZ-Pass discount because the Verranzano is their only direct link to the rest of the city. Of course, that's small comfort to other people who use the bridge on a daily or regular basis, say a Brooklyn resident who works in Middlesex County, but have to pay the full tab. I'd be happy to see *all* tolls eliminated or at least drastically reduced, with massive social service and health care cuts used to make up the deficit ... of course, the Upper West Siders would slit their throats before putting up with that idea (hmmmmm, now that's a thought!)
No, with EZ-Pass non S.I. residents pay $6.00.
I'd be happy to see *all* tolls eliminated or at least drastically reduced, with massive social service and health care cuts used to make up the deficit
I totally agree. Tolls in NYC have gotten way out of hand.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The VZ was $0.75, when it opened in 1964. Gold was still $35/oz. The tolls and gold have risen proportionately.
The other bridges and tunnels were 25 cents back in 1964. The VZ had the toll in both directions at that time. I have to believe the VZ was 25 cents also as all the TBTA bridges and tunnels are the same price with the exception going to the Crossbay, Marine Parkway (Gil Hodges Memorial) and Henry Hudson Bridges which are half the regular price. ($1.75 instead of $3.00) At that time the Port Authority bridges and tunnels were 50 cents and the tolls were collected each way. It is interesting how back then the Port Authority could be twice the price of the TBTA and today the TBTA is almost twice the price of the PA.
I have to believe the VZ was 25 cents also as all the TBTA bridges and tunnels are the same price with the exception going to the Crossbay, Marine Parkway (Gil Hodges Memorial) and Henry Hudson Bridges which are half the regular price.
The VZ was 75 cents each way, when it opened. The other TBTA facilities were either 25 cents or 10 cents at that time.
50 cents sounds right. That's what the toll was for the Lincoln Tunnel in 1967, and tolls were collected in both directions. When that all changed to tolls being collected in one direction only, it became a dollar, which made sense. The outbound toll booths were left in for some time, and there were flashing yellow lights with signs on that side which said, "NO TOLL collected this direction - DO NOT STOP".
[The VZ was $0.75, when it opened in 1964. Gold was still $35/oz. The tolls and gold have risen proportionately.]
Except the toll nearly costs as much as an ounce of gold (sigh).
BTW I don't think its fair that a Staten Island resident can get a round trip over the Verrazano with E-Pass for $3.25, and the rest of us have to pay $6.00.
$3 to cross a bridge? That's an outrage! Did anyone stop to count the cost? $3 to cross the Narrows, the cost of gas, maybe parking, and another $1.50 for the subway! BTW, how much is the round-trip fare on the Ferry these days? I remember it being a nickel in the 1970's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The SI Ferry fare is now free for passengers, though there's still a fare for cars.
David
Yeah its a good deal for those SI ferry fans,Like Me and Mark W
The SI Ferry fare is now free for passengers, though there's still a fare for cars.
That's interesting. I didn't think any mode of transportation was free.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Walking is
Walking is
Yeah! Right? Like in the Beatles song "Taxman", they talk about taxing your feet.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When the MTA introduced free transfers (one city, one fare), Giuliani decided that heck, Staten Islanders tranferring from a bus, the SIRT or the subway should have a free transfer also. They were going to put in turnstiles for those walking to the ferry. Then they figured out that so few people walk to the ferry that it would never pay for the turnstiles, so they decided to ditch the whole thing.
Then they decided to that almost everyone who takes the SIRT goes to St. George, so why not just collect the fare there, getting on and off?
Bottom line: if you like to walk, live along the SIRT, and work in Lower Manhattan, you can take mass transit all the time and never pay a fare. Just hop off the SIRT and walk from Tompkinsville, and walk from the ferry terminal to work in Manhattan.
[Bottom line: if you like to walk, live along the SIRT, and work in Lower Manhattan, you can take mass transit all the time and never pay a fare. Just hop off the SIRT and walk from Tompkinsville, and walk from the ferry terminal to work in Manhattan.]
That is sort of a longish walk. You'd have to be really cheap, or really into walking, in order to do it every day.
The main reason it's free had to do with Staten Isladers wanting a free ride at the expense of the rest of the city, as payback for having supported Pataki (when the other boroughs didn't) in the '94 and '98 elections.
They're still bitter over the $3 express bus fare - not because it wasn't lowered further (to $2), but because everybody else got the same deal. How can the rest of the city pay S.I.'s way when they also get a break?
A LOT of rush hour SIR trains SKIP Tompkinsville in the morning - only one stops there and that is the 7:03 out of Tottenville. I would guess this is a move to thwart people who are trying to get a free ride. Some AM rush trains also skip Stapleton too.
Wayne
Now walking from Stapleton to St. George -- even in good weather -- would be a looonnnngggg trip. Anyone willing to do that, especailly at this time of year, deserves a free ride (and a free cup of coffee to warm up) on the ferry.
My guess is it's about a mile from Stapleton to St. George. From Clifton, it's even further. And that's a pretty seedy-looking neighborhood there along Bay Street. Is saving $1.50 worth all that aggravation?
Wayne
01/18/2000
It seems any fare collecting on board SIR Rwy. trains has ceased thanks to Metrocard. It's like fare collection on some old trolley lines. At St.George to get on it's PAY AS YOU ENTER, and to get off it's PAY AS LEAVE. You can ride to stations in between for free as long as you don't go near St.George.
My friend who is works for Staten Island Railway said that the cost of retrofitting all stations as fare controls would be cost prohibitive and people riding free between stations would be cheaper. But the bulk of the ridership is to and from the SI Ferry connection at St.George.
Bill Newkirk
They wanted to include the ferry in the Fare Deal, but discovered that installing and maintaining the turnstiles would exceed what they would collect in fares, since most ferry riders would be transfering from a bus or the SIR. On-board fare collection on the SIR was eliminated because they've got no current way to collect the fare on-board from metrocard users.
-Hank
They wanted to include the ferry in the Fare Deal, but discovered that installing and maintaining the turnstiles would exceed what they would collect in fares, since most ferry riders would be transfering from a bus or the SIR. On-board fare collection on the SIR was eliminated because they've got no current way to collect the fare on-board from metrocard users.
-Hank
I remember the tickets. I still have a few stubs. How,do they collect fares on it now? Did they finally install turnsitles at the stations?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They don't collect the fare unless you get on or off at St. George. Travel between all other points is free.
-Hank
They don't collect the fare unless you get on or off at St. George. Travel between all other points is free.
-Hank
So couldnt you beat the fare by taking it one stop short of St. George and walking to the ferry, or would that be too far?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[[They don't collect the fare unless you get on or off at St. George. Travel between all other points is free.]
[So couldnt you beat the fare by taking it one stop short of St. George and walking to the ferry, or would that be too far?]
Tompkinsville station is a fairly long but do-able walk from St. George. Many rush hour trains skip it, however, presumably as a way of discouraging the free-ride strategy.
Tompkinsville station is a fairly long but do-able walk from St. George. Many rush hour trains skip it, however, presumably as a way of discouraging the free-ride strategy.
I wonder how they would feel about someone taking a bicycle on board the train.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Allowed at the discretion of the Conductor, and basically, that's as long as it's not muddy; except from 6-9AM westbound, and 4pm to 7pm eastbound.
-Hank
And there doesn't seem to be many stations which could be fitted with MetroCard turnstiles either - many of them don't even have station houses.
Wayne
Also: even if they built station houses and added turnstiles someone would have to staff the new booths- seven days, 24 hours and you'd need lunch relief and cleaners and supervisors.
NYCT Station Agents do not work Staten Island (St. George). The current booth in St. George is staffed by SIRTOA employees. Another point- even if they chanegd the rules to let us work in Staten Island our passes are not valid on SIRT trains- we have to pay just like any other rider so in conjunction with new booths, let us ride SIRT for free.
They would use machines and iron maidens I assume. Don't forget the cameras and call back boxes they would need.
How much money would be collected by people not going to and from St. George?
No good. Iron maidens impede access to those who would have difficulty getting through the gates (ie, people such as myself).
Additionally, there are so many ways 'around' the marked entrances to the stations that it would be ineffectual. Some people have backyards that are open to the ROW. Some have gates, gardens...
Installing fare controls would be a losing proposition. They'd lose more money on maintainence then they would collect in fares.
-Hank
That's why you should have read the second line before posting.
Exactly what do you mean by that? You asked the question, I answered it.
-Hank
It wasn't a question to be answered.
How much money would be collected by people not going to and from St. George?
Sure as heck LOOKS like a question.
-Hank :)
It is a question, but it was posted not to be answered, but to serve to emphasize the futility of the proposal in paragraph one.
Do I see another argument forming here?????
Perhaps a cooling-off period for all is in order.
Wayne
See, that's the problem with letters and email. No telling when you're looking at a rhetorical question!
-Hank
THANK YOU! That's the word my past life was looking for!
Back in 1985, the head of the MTA rode the SIRT and the conductor asked for money (they were collecting on the trains then). When he showed him his MTA id, the conductor informed the President of the MTA that his id was no good on the SIRT and he would have to pay the fare.
Laughing he did pay his fare, and we had the whole thing about not being able to see out of the R44's windows because of some cleaning agent they used.
To this day I remember this, it was on the train I used to ride home from Tottenville H.S. and this particular conductor was a nut buster. He took my pass one time because I forgot to sign it. I had to go to St. George (paying the fare) to see the "Station Master" to get it back.
As I understand it, Staten Island agreeed to be annexed by the city of New York on the condition that there would always be free ferry service provided between Manhattan and SI. I could be wrong about this... Maybe somebody who knows more about NYC history than I do could provide more clarification.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
As I understand it, Staten Island agreeed to be annexed by the city of New York on the condition that there would always be free ferry service provided between Manhattan and SI. I could be wrong about this... Maybe somebody who knows more about NYC history than I do could provide more clarification.
Staten Island was annexed by NYC in 1898. You always had to pay for ferry service. I remember it being a nickel into the seventies. Defy Reason says the SI Ferry fare was 50¢ until 1997, when it became free.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It was free in the Staten Island bound direction.
The fare on the SI Ferry was 5c each way from 1905 (when the City took it over) until 1972 when one-way fare collection was started (from Manhattan). The fare was raised to 25c round trip in 1975 (during the financial crisis), collected in Manhattan. During the Dinkins Administration, the fare doubled to 50c round trip, collected in Manhattan.
Fare collection did not move to Staten Island until the Whitehall Street Terminal burned down. Of course, there is no fare now for passengers.
Mayor Dinkins also ended car service. No wonder he wasn't very popular!
Chip
Car service was ended by the necessity of the Whitehall Terminal fire. Until the current temporary facility was constructed, there was a temporary waiting room on the lower level. Additionally, with the upper level of the terminal destroyed in the fire, all passengers had to board on the lower level. The administration wanted to continue the car ban after the temporary facility opened, but this was fought by the boro president and several motorcycle groups.
BTW, a new terminal was supposed to have been constructed by 1997. They have yet to break ground.
-Hank
In downtown Seattle there is about a square mile where the bus service is free . I think a couple more cities also have that type of zone
Yes, Buffalo has a free fare zone on the Light Rail portion of its subway line.
I remember it being 50 cents in the Manhattan bound direction only before 1997. It's free now.
I remember it being 50 cents in the Manhattan bound direction only before 1997. It's free now.
For New York, 50¢ is a steal these days. Free is even better. I'm curious. Why did they eliminate the fare on the Ferry? I remember when the subway fare kept going up, the Ferry still remained a nickel. It used to be a nickel each way. Sometime in the seventies, they made it free one way and a dime the other way.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Free is even better. I'm curious. Why did they eliminate the fare on the Ferry?
I believe the short answer to that is that it came at a time when Staten Island was threatening to secede from NYC. The free fare was their reward for helping Giuliani win the mayoralty and it quelled the secession movement (for now anyway). Another example of the marriage between politics and transit.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
I believe the short answer to that is that it came at a time when Staten Island was threatening to secede from NYC. The free fare was their reward for helping Giuliani win the mayoralty and it quelled the secession movement (for now anyway). Another example of the marriage between politics and transit.
If the reason would have been anything other than political, I probably wouldn't have believed it. You will never find an honest politician who is ethical. There's just no such animal.
It is different. The low ferry fare came with heavy subsidies. In order to allow the citywide one-fare zone to extend to Staten Island was to install Metrocard accepting turnstiles that would accept transfers from busses and the SIR (and in turn allow transfers to the subway and busses once you get across), the cost of installing new turnstiles, coupled with the fact that most people would no longer pay for the ferry, made it more economical to eliminate the ferry fare.
The ferry was already heavily subsidized before the fare was eliminated, but the numbers that were used to show that the fare could be eliminated demonstrated that the DOT funding for bus service in Queens would continue to exceed the ferry subsidies.
-Hank
FYI, the VZ Cash price is up to $7. EZPass discount is $6, SI Resident is $3.20, and Carpool (3 or more) is $1, and you need to prepurchase a ticket book.
-Hank
Any oldtimers out there who remember the .10 toll on the Southern State Pkwy (later raised to .25) in Valley Stream where the State Police Barracks are now? Used to mess up traffic for miles. There was also a toll on the Loop Pkway just W/O the Meadowbrook Pkway.
When I came to Florida in 1980, there were quite a few 10¢ tolls. They were all raised to 25¢ in 1989 or 1990. also, the 25¢ tolls were raised to 50¢ and the 50¢ tolls were raised to 75¢. When I first came here, I was astonished at how low the tolls were, compared to NYC.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(They might even still have 10¢ tolls upstate.)
Myself, I'd be a little uspet if I had to stop to put 10 cents in the basket.
Jon
Oh, really? I'd rather put a dime in the basket than a dollar. BTW, 25¢, 50¢ and75¢ are the norm here in South Florida. There are no Dollar tolls here.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think that you misinterpreted what I was saying, since I didn't exactly make it clear. I don't really think that the roads where you pay 10 cents between every exit are very efficient. I'd hate to see a toll plaza back traffic up the way it does here in NY just to collect dimes. Yes, I'd definitely much rather pay 10 cents than $7.
Jon
I think that you misinterpreted what I was saying, since I didn't exactly make it clear. I don't really think that the roads where you pay 10 cents between every exit are very efficient. I'd hate to see a toll plaza back traffic up the way it does here in NY just to collect dimes. Yes, I'd definitely much rather pay 10 cents than $7.
Jon
If you would rather pay 10¢ than $7, tell that to those on this forum who would like to see the tolls raised to $20. That is how this whole discussion got started in the first place.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How about de-regulating the parking lots in Manhattan (higher prices)and buying bulldozers to move the illegally parked cars?
Jon
How about de-regulating the parking lots in Manhattan (higher prices)and buying bulldozers to move the illegally parked cars?
Jon
First off, I would think that the gouging that goes on at the Manhattan parking lots is high enough. I left NYC in 1980, but I remember Manhattan parking lot prices in the late seventies being $10. If you ask me, for those years, that was damn steep. BTW, what does it cost to park for the day in Manhattan today?
As for the bulldozers, I disagree. Aren't towtrucks good enough? All a bulldozer is going to do is make a large debris mess on the street and leave a destroyed hulk blocking traffic. Do you really hate vehicular traffic that much. Something tells me that if you and some of the others on SubTalk had their way, the streets of New York would look like the streets of Moscow or East Berlin during the Soviet Era - no cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It depends. Most places have the early bird rate, get in before 10:00AM and park all day. I have seen it between $15 &$22. Obviously, the closer you are to midtown, the more you pay. The lower priced garages, tend to be farther from attractions. You can pay a lot more than that in some sections. My prices above include the 18% parking tax.
The tow-trucks aren't fast enough. Maybe if the sanitation trucks were equipped with heavy chains, they could drag all of the illegally parked cars to Staten Island, where the city could sell them all to the "chop shops" and put the auto thieves out of business.
Jon
The tow-trucks aren't fast enough. Maybe if the sanitation trucks were equipped with heavy chains, they could drag all of the illegally parked cars to Staten Island, where the city could sell them all to the "chop shops" and put the auto thieves out of business.
You really do want the streets of New York to resemble Soviet Era Moscow.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, Yes I do.
Yes, Yes I do.
Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it. There are obvious consequences that go along with it - mostly economic, and it would cause a mass exodus from the city. What you want to do with bulldozers and chop shops would never be attempted. The city would definately go bankrupt from all the lawsuits from private citizens and insurance companies. I may be a railfan, but I am a realist. I'm not living in a fantasy world where there are no cars, only trains. That is the last comment that I wish to make on this topic. I'm changing the thread so I know to avoid this one next time it is posted.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Hey, isn't Moscow's subway system the most-heavily patronized system in the world?
Jon
[Hey, isn't Moscow's subway system the most-heavily patronized system in the world?]
Possibly, but I think it might be Mexico City's.
It is Moscow's.
Mexico City comes in third.
New York comes in sixth.
I know only about the Orlando area.
The tolls are low, but they are not payment for permission to occupy the most scarce road space in the country -- that in Manhattan -- or to cross a major bridge that has to be maintained. And I didn't know they were comming, so I ended up waiting quite a while at a tollboth for a lack of 35 cents -- to go one exit.
The tolls are low, but they are not payment for permission to occupy the most scarce road space in the country -- that in Manhattan -- or to cross a major bridge that has to be maintained. And I didn't know they were comming, so I ended up waiting quite a while at a tollboth for a lack of 35 cents -- to go one exit.
Bridges and roads have to be maintained anywhere in the country. As for Manhattan, not everybody that drives in Manhattan parks in Manhattan. Alot are just "passing through". If you're going from NJ to LI, you don't have much of a choice. Its either Manhattan or the Bronx that you have to pass through. They'll get you with the tolls either way. As least here in South Florida, you have free alternatives to the toll roads. You don't have to take the Turnpike or the Sawgrass Expressway. You could get on that insane madhouse known as I-95. As for your being caught at a toll plaza for 35¢ for one lousy exit, I agree with you. If you don't know the roads, things like that will be a regular occurrance. I usually don't carry any change unless I anticipate paying a toll. One day, I really got caught with my pants down. I had no change and no paper money either. I unexpectedly wound up at a toll plaza, purely by mistake. I didn't even want to get on any toll road. I had to plead with the toll attendant to forgo the 25¢ toll. They didn't take plastic.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I usually don't carry any change unless I anticipate paying a toll. One day, I really got caught with my pants down. I had no change and no paper money either. I unexpectedly wound up at a toll plaza, purely by mistake. I didn't even want to get on any toll road. I had to plead with the toll attendant to forgo the 25¢ toll. They didn't take plastic.
That's like when my wife was coming back from LI on the Grand Central and she took a wrong turn onto a bridge she had never seen before. From the way she desctibed it I think it was the Throgs Neck -- anyway, lost and in tears the police helped her make a U-Turn in the toll plaza -- no toll and no ticket!!!
www.bmt-lines.com
That's like when my wife was coming back from LI on the Grand Central and she took a wrong turn onto a bridge she had never seen before. From the way she desctibed it I think it was the Throgs Neck -- anyway, lost and in tears the police helped her make a U-Turn in the toll plaza -- no toll and no ticket!!!
That turned out really good. If she would have had the toll money, she would have wound up in the Bronx, only to have to spend another toll, more time and more gas just to get back. So, it all worked out.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When I lived in Pittsburgh there was a woman who didn't pay the 65 cent toll on an extension of the Turnpike. She tried to get someone to pull over and make change for her (it was an unattended plaza) and eventually she just went through. They let her off without a fine because the Turnpike Commmision had neglected to provide change machines.
Jon
When I lived in Pittsburgh there was a woman who didn't pay the 65 cent toll on an extension of the Turnpike. She tried to get someone to pull over and make change for her (it was an unattended plaza) and eventually she just went through. They let her off without a fine because the Turnpike Commmision had neglected to provide change machines.
Jon
I will have to remember that. My wife recently was stuck at an automated toll plaza with no change. She had no alternative but to run it. There was a sign posted that it was photo-enforced (in other words, a camera takes a pic of your plate if you run it) with a fine of $100. If we get a ticket in the mail, I'll go to court and I'll stand on the change machine issue. She told me that she never went through that toll plaza before, had no change, but entered the toll plaza with a dollar in her hand. Since she was driving my car at the time, I would get the ticket. If I have to go to court on this one, it will be in Downtown Miami. So, when I get finished, I'll just do some railfanning on the Mertorail. There is a railfan seat up front, so even with full-width cabs, the cars are railfan-friendly. You can look out the front while sitting down. Aren't the Philly M-4's like that?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I know only about the Orlando area.
The tolls are low, but they are not payment for permission to occupy the most scarce road space in the country -- that in Manhattan -- or to cross a major bridge that has to be maintained. And I didn't know they were comming, so I ended up waiting quite a while at a tollboth for a lack of 35 cents -- to go one exit.
They should put EZ-Pass in rent-a-cars and add it to your bill.
[I know only about the Orlando area.
The tolls are low, but they are not payment for permission to occupy the most scarce road space in the country -- that in Manhattan -- or to cross a major bridge that has to be maintained.]
Yes, I think people are missing that. Road space in Manhattan is a limited resource, and so is air quality, and since it's virtually impossible to add more of them the cost of providing it has to include the cost of maintaining the subway ROW and other mass transit subsidies.
An economically valid system would work on a bid basis, with people competing for the right to travel in their share of the space and foul their share of the air, and new transportation facilities being added when the bids get high enough to make them economical. Same principles as real estate.
[Long Islanders headed for New Jersey or other points south and west will still get stuck paying NYC tolls. Avoiding Manhattan is still costly thanks to the tolls on the Verranzano.
I still maintain that all tolls should be eliminated except for those needed to pay off bridge/tunnel construction bonds (and maybe even then). Make massive, end-of-the-world style cuts in social service and health care spending. There'll be a big adjustment period, but the upshot is that the city will be flush with cash, for transit and many other worthy purposes, and tolls will be utterly unnecessary. Sounds impossible? It works just fine in the Sunbelt. It can work here too.]
As can privatization. The key to the economic health of the whole region is dropping our Moscow-on-the-Hudson policies and becoming economically competitive again, while restoring competitive services for the middle class. But I'd keep the tolls--commuters should pay their fare share of the City's infrastructure.
The fact that NYC is actually growing a bit now in spite of the tax outflow to rural areas and providing services to a disproportionate percentage of the nation's poor suggests to me that with fetters removed, the City's economy would explode. And New York State would be a lot less needy, and less apt to steal the City's revenue, if upstate manufacturing towns became economically competitive again, something that will never happen as long as the State's tax rates remain high.
(High New York State Tax Rates)
Point of information. I just dowloaded state and local taxes as a share of personal income for FY 1997.
In New York State, combined S&L taxes were 27 percent higher than average, and the second highest of any state except Alaska.
State taxes were average.
Local taxes were 72 percent above average, as a result of local expenditures the state forces them to fund.
Elsewhere, the state picks up the cost of the poor -- Medicaid and welfare -- but here it promises big bucks and sticks local governments, esp. NYC, with half the check. And the state covers a smaller share of education in New York than elsewhere.
(High New York State Tax Rates)
Point of information. I just dowloaded state and local taxes as a share of personal income for FY 1997.
In New York State, combined S&L taxes were 27 percent higher than average, and the second highest of any state except Alaska.
State taxes were average.
Local taxes were 72 percent above average, as a result of local expenditures the state forces them to fund.
Elsewhere, the state picks up the cost of the poor -- Medicaid and welfare -- but here it promises big bucks and sticks local governments, esp. NYC, with half the check. And the state covers a smaller share of education in New York than elsewhere.
One of the great things about Florida is no state or city income tax. I just fill out the Federal Income Tax.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
eh, but how many states have a excise tax rather then a sales tax. Go to the doctor pay a 4.18 pct tax, lawyer, anything you pay a exercise tax. They tried to add the tax a few years ago to airline tickets but the feds said no. but a travel agent has to pay the tax quarterly on the sales they make even if it is on airline tickets. The only thing no tax is on is rx because it is regulated by the feds. This was started in the 20s when 4 companies ran the territory. If a person bought something at the company store it was exempt, but if they went to a private store off the plantation they were made to pay. It has not changed
[One of the great things about Florida is no state or city income tax. I just fill out the Federal Income Tax.]
To become competitive again, NYS will have to go beyond the 50% mark and imitate the sunbelt states.
That, for me, provides a moral dilemna. On one hand, I believe that antipoverty efforts should be a joint, Federal responsibility; on the other hand, I don't want to see people suffer.
That, for me, provides a moral dilemna. On one hand, I believe that antipoverty efforts should be a joint, Federal responsibility; on the other hand, I don't want to see people suffer.
The biggest problem is abuse. Often times, the people that need help are denied help, and the ones that either don't need it or are too lazy to work are the ones that get the help. We give out too much in help to immigrants. In the early part of the Twentieth Century, immigrants either had a sponsor or pulled their own weight. Now we roll out the red carpet for them. We give them a check, a medicaid card and food stamps. Its called "Refugee Assistance". All the while, struggling Americans can't get benefits. Like I said, I know all about public assistance. I worked with it for 12 years.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[The biggest problem is abuse. Often times, the people that need help are denied help, and the ones that either don't need it or are too lazy to work are the ones that get the help. We give out too much in help to immigrants. In the early part of the Twentieth Century, immigrants either had a sponsor or pulled their own weight. Now we roll out the red carpet for them. We give them a check, a medicaid card and food stamps. Its called "Refugee Assistance". All the while, struggling Americans can't get benefits. Like I said, I know all about public assistance. I worked with it for 12 years.]
I can't say I disagree. Add to that the fact that illegal aliens take jobs from American citiziens at illegally low rates--I see it happening all the time. Which is I think the real reason they're here; it suits business.
Then too, you have to include the cost of the bloated anti-poverty apparatus in the waste, and the fact that we give all sorts of money to junkies who just end up in the hospital or in jail, where they cost even more.
[In New York State, combined S&L taxes were 27 percent higher than average, and the second highest of any state except Alaska.]
New York State in effect has the highest combined burden from a consumer's point of view. Alaska's taxes are mainly severance taxes on oil and natural resource producers.
[Local taxes were 72 percent above average, as a result of local expenditures the state forces them to fund.
Elsewhere, the state picks up the cost of the poor -- Medicaid and welfare -- but here it promises big bucks and sticks local governments, esp. NYC, with half the check.]
All the more reason why municipal bankruptcy would be a Godsend. The control board that would take control of the City's finances could tell Albany to take a flying [deleted].
In New York City we get a double screw, and its triple if you live outside of Manhattan. The state sends a lot more money to Washington than it gets back. The city sends a lot more money to Albany than it gets back and to boros send a lot more money into city government than it gets back. Its no wonder that New York City keeps talking about suceeding from the rest of the state and both Queens and Staten Island want out of the City.
If Queens were to succeed, I don't know how that would effect the subways and busses. None of the Brookly els were extended to Queens until after 1913 (ie. Liberty Ave and Jamaica Ave.) when it officially became part of the City. (Not in 1898 as everyone believes.)
(If the city were to go bankrupt, health care would have to be cut)
That's not the reality. The health care industry gets what it gets first, by state law, and everything else gets cut as much as possible to make up the difference. In the next recession, the infrastructure will be allowed to deteriorate, the schools will be cut to threadbare desparation, and the park system -- which has never had its funding restored -- will be slashed even more. You may also get a tax increase. That's what happened in the 1970s. That's what happened in the early 1990s.
If you don't like these priorities, you need a third party victory in Albany.
As for health care, the biggest relative money drains are home health care (NYS accounts for more than one-third of U.S. spending) and "personal care" (NYS accounts for nearly one-half). Personal care includes people to shop, cook, and clean for the indigent elderly (who have given their money to their kids to qualify).
Cutting that will be about as easy as cutting social security. Remember, in 1990 70 percent of NYC residents over age 65 where white, and 70 percent of New Yorkers under age 18 (and their parents) were not. It doesn't matter if these services cost double what they should, only who gets them, and who gets screwed in the balance.
[(If the city were to go bankrupt, health care would have to be cut)
That's not the reality. The health care industry gets what it gets first, by state law, and everything else gets cut as much as
possible to make up the difference.
If you don't like these priorities, you need a third party victory in Albany.
As for health care, the biggest relative money drains are home health care (NYS accounts for more than one-third of U.S. spending) and "personal care" (NYS accounts for nearly one-half).]
Municipal bankruptcy *would* make a difference. City finances would come under the control of a court-appointed control board, which under federal bankruptcy law would have near-dictatorial powers - far greater powers than any elected administration. The board would be accountable to no one except the bankruptcy court, and could slash health care spending as much as they saw fit. Anybody who didn't like that (can you say Upper West Side?) would have exactly two choices: (1) put up with it, or (2) leave.
None of the Brookly els were extended to Queens until after 1913 (ie. Liberty Ave and Jamaica Ave.) when it officially became part of the City. (Not in 1898 as everyone believes.)
For a brief period in 1903, BU's using trolley poles ran on the surface on Jamaica Ave.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No, it became part of the city in 1898. There's no doubt about that.
[Point of information. I just dowloaded state and local taxes as a share of personal income for FY 1997.
In New York State, combined S&L taxes were 27 percent higher than average, and the second highest of any state except Alaska.
State taxes were average.
Local taxes were 72 percent above average, as a result of local expenditures the state forces them to fund.
Elsewhere, the state picks up the cost of the poor -- Medicaid and welfare -- but here it promises big bucks and sticks local governments, esp. NYC, with half the check. And the state covers a smaller share of education in New York than elsewhere.]
Interesting figures.
I've always assumed that the main reason NYS shortchanges local governments was to target NYC. But by the opposite token, NYC spends a ridiculous amount on Medicaid and other services (some of them mandated) provided by no other state.
Another interesting figure, from today's Times: the Federal Government spends $22 billion/year on farm subsidies.
I'll have to remember that the next time somebody complains about transit aid.
Another interesting figure, from today's Times: the Federal Government spends $22 billion/year on farm subsidies.
I'll have to remember that the next time somebody complains about transit aid.
Don't be so down on farm subsidies. We eat what they grow. I'd rather eat what we grow, than what Brazil grows.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Right. But don't forget, part of those farm subsidies pay for farmers to NOT grow crops, and part help fund the tobacco price supports. Those two things we can do without.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right. But don't forget, part of those farm subsidies pay for farmers to NOT grow crops, and part help fund the tobacco price supports. Those two things we can do without.
As an ex-smoker, I couldn't agree more. If I had all the money that I spent on cigarettes over the 23 years that I smoked, I'd probably be able to build barns for all the cars at Shoreline that are exposed to the elements, and then some.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Considering where you live, and please don't take offense to this, you shouldn't be talking. The Carolinas are two of the biggest states for farm subsidies, from hogs to tobacco. BTW, aren't those hog farms an environmental disaster?
-Hank
But he's posting against farm subsidies even though his state benefits from it. He's posting to his disadvantage, that is admissible.
Thanks for the defense! But even if I was posting in favor of them, I think that's admissible too. Certainly my views on tobacco and hogs have not stood me in good stead with my neighbors down home, but at least they know that I won't let expediency get in the way of my sincere beliefs. (Not that that helped me when I ran for school board, mind you!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Farm subsidies are a form of welfare for people who aren't forced to admit they are on welfare. But only worse, since they distort the market.
As I understand it, the Feds guarantee a price and make up the difference (or buy and store) if its over the market. But the price has a limited relationship to quality. So you make the most money not by producing less, better food, but by producing more garbage. Hence animals raised in their own excrement, etc. This kills the small farmer, who (in a free market) might be able to compete on a craft quality basis, but not on an industrial volume basis. And the industrial producers fight to keep labels off to avoid telling consumers how their food was produced.
The small farmers nonetheless support the system, because they are used to being dependent on welfare and having the government solve their problems. And sneering at all those welfare people in the cities. They tried to loosen up the system and remove some of the distortions, but as soon as they did farm subsidies came roaring back. The Democrats believe that if everyone is on welfare, they will be the dominant party. They just don't understand that no one would be left to pay.
The Feds guarantee a price and make up the difference (or buy and store) if it's over the market. But the price has a limited relationship to quality.
That may be true in some areas, but it is not (or was not) in dairy supports. Milk, at the wholesale level, is priced based on the butterfat content, the prime indicator of quality. Price supports are based on that also.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Right. But don't forget, part of those farm subsidies pay for farmers to NOT grow crops, and part help fund the tobacco price supports. Those two things we can do without.]
Yeah, but those tobacco price supports mean that New York State can raise the tax on cigarettes higher, so they're really a subsidy for the health care industry in New York State, which stands to benefit the more people smoke.
Oh, I just love subsidies.
[Yeah, but those tobacco price supports mean that New York State can raise the tax on cigarettes higher, so they're really a subsidy for the health care industry in New York State, which stands to benefit the more people smoke.]
If you want to reduce the issue to strictly economic terms, smoking is actually a major benefit to the national economy. Higher health care costs are more than outweighed by the money saved on Social Security because smokers die at younger ages.
[If you want to reduce the issue to strictly economic terms, smoking is actually a major benefit to the national economy. Higher health care costs are more than outweighed by the money saved on Social Security because smokers die at younger ages.]
That's true. So is drunk driving--for every innocent life lost, one drunken and lethargic worker is removed from the labor force . . .
[Don't be so down on farm subsidies. We eat what they grow. I'd rather eat what we grow, than what Brazil grows.]
The answer to that isn't subsidies, but tariffs. Farms subsidies just reward inefficiency. More than that, they create it.
I think you have to include the decline of the family, relatively and overall, in the problem. It's more advanced here than elsewhere.
Families do some very important things, like taking care of children or elderly parents, cheap. Because they are important, New York has become the family of last resort.
That becomes expensive when the sperm contributor (lets not say father) doesn't want to help care for the child. It is more expensive when the mother is on crack and won't take care of the child either, hence the zero parent family.
And when middle-class adults move to low tax states, leave Grandma behind, Grandma gives her money to those adults, and then becomes eligable for a chauffer (amubulette service), maid and personal shopper (personal care) and home health care via Medicaid, you have an expense that makes welfare seem cheap.
I believe that if Grandma moves in with the children who stay in New York, that makes the family as a whole non-poor, and ineligible for assistance. Perverse incentive.
[I think you have to include the decline of the family, relatively and overall, in the problem. It's more advanced here than elsewhere.
Families do some very important things, like taking care of children or elderly parents, cheap. Because they are important, New York has become the family of last resort.]
I agree that the decline of the family has boosted social service and health care spending. Are you sure, however, that this decline is more pronounced in New York than elsewhere? All that I've read and heard seems to indicate that family decline is a nationwide phenomenon.
[I think you have to include the decline of the family, relatively and overall, in the problem. It's more advanced here than elsewhere.
Families do some very important things, like taking care of children or elderly parents, cheap. Because they are important, New York has become the family of last resort.
That becomes expensive when the sperm contributor (lets not say father) doesn't want to help care for the child. It is more expensive when the mother is on crack and won't take care of the child either, hence the zero parent family.
And when middle-class adults move to low tax states, leave Grandma behind, Grandma gives her money to those adults, and then becomes eligable for a chauffer (amubulette service), maid and personal shopper (personal care) and home health care via Medicaid, you have an expense that makes welfare seem cheap.
I believe that if Grandma moves in with the children who stay in New York, that makes the family as a whole non-poor, and ineligible for assistance. Perverse incentive.]
I agree, and I'd add the senior citizen rent increase exemption into the mix. Talk about perverse incentives--I know one elderly woman who's just moved from her $200/month 12 room rent controlled prewar apartment on the West Side into an 8 room prewar apartment where she'll live the rest of her life for free.
[Of all the places to bring through traffic, Manhattan makes the least sense. For Peter Manhattan may be the most direct route. But many people drive out of their way to drive through Manhattan to avoid tolls, and that makes no sense at all.
I do it myself. If there were tolls on all the bridges, I would never ever take the Brooklyn Bridge. I'd take the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, or go up the BQE and over the Triboro. But, if I have time, I go out of my way and contribute to traffic and pollution to avoid a $3.00 toll. And Canal Street is jammed with trucks for that reason.
With tolls, you could build new tunnels to take the trains and trucks off the bridges. You could also build park-n-ride lots for Long Island to NYC commuters. You could add a lane to the Belt, and to the Staten Island Expressway for a southern by pass. Etc.]
I think you're right--the current toll system offers perverse incentives, thanks in part to Sen. D'Amato.
I think the case for a good park 'n ride system is compelling, not just at existing commuter stations, but on all vehicle approaches to the City. It would have to be comfortable, fast, and less expensive than driving once the tolls are figured in, and I think it would require rethinking the City's transportation network, because with the current system changing at a park and ride facility is a real pain for those not near a commuter line--it would really have to offer a direct trip to your destination.
[Of all the places to bring through traffic, Manhattan makes the least sense. For Peter Manhattan may be the most direct route. But many people drive out of their way to drive through Manhattan to avoid tolls, and that makes no sense at all.
I do it myself. If there were tolls on all the bridges, I would never ever take the Brooklyn Bridge. I'd take the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, or go up the BQE and over the Triboro. But, if I have time, I go out of my way and contribute to traffic and pollution to avoid a $3.00 toll. And Canal Street is jammed with trucks for that reason.
With tolls, you could build new tunnels to take the trains and trucks off the bridges. You could also build park-n-ride lots for Long Island to NYC commuters. You could add a lane to the Belt, and to the Staten Island Expressway for a southern by pass. Etc.]
I think you're right--the current toll system offers perverse incentives, thanks in part to Sen. D'Amato.
I think the case for a good park 'n ride system is compelling, not just at existing commuter stations, but on all vehicle approaches to the City. It would have to be comfortable, fast, and less expensive than driving once the tolls are figured in, and I think it would require rethinking the City's transportation network, because with the current system changing at a park and ride facility is a real pain for those not near a commuter line--it would really have to offer a direct trip to your destination.
In this whole debate over tolls and discouraging people from driving in Manhattan, one important fact has been overlooked. What about disabled people who need to go door-to-door with a car Why penalize the hell out of them by charging steep tolls and restricting parking in Manhattan. All this about parking below 96th St. being prohibited - what about those with handicap parking permits? Are they at least allowed to park in Manhattan?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Why not make those state issued handicapped parking permits valid for a toll discount.
Why not make those state issued handicapped parking permits valid for a toll discount.
Excellent idea. People who must use their cars to go door-to-door due to disability, as opposed to those who are able-bodied who can use mass transit, should get a break on the tolls.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
In Calif, Nev and Hawaii if you have a handicapped card you do not have to pay at a meter or you could park all day at a 1 or 2 hour zone, does any other state allow the same thing?
In Calif, Nev and Hawaii if you have a handicapped card you do not have to pay at a meter or you could park all day at a 1 or 2 hour zone, does any other state allow the same thing?
In Florida, there are designated handicap parking spots. No meters. If you happen to be in a garage where you pay by the hour, you have to pay like everybody else, but you get to park in a choice spot right near the elevator. Its also a $200 fine for parking in one of those spots without a permit. To qualify for a permit, you must have hardship walking more than 200 feet, and a doctor's certification on the application for the permit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They are, at the Staten Island Ferry. I don't believe they are elsewhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[In this whole debate over tolls and discouraging people from driving in Manhattan, one important fact has been overlooked. What about disabled people who need to go door-to-door with a car Why penalize the hell out of them by charging steep tolls and restricting parking in Manhattan. All this about parking below 96th St. being prohibited - what about those with handicap parking permits? Are they at least allowed to park in Manhattan?]
It makes little sense to exempt a huge number of non-handicapped people from tolls for a few handicapped people. So give handicapped people a sticker which exempts them from the tolls; or better yet, increase their income to account for the added expense of driving.
It makes little sense to exempt a huge number of non-handicapped people from tolls for a few handicapped people. So give handicapped people a sticker which exempts them from the tolls; or better yet, increase their income to account for the added expense of driving.
What I was saying implied allowing unrestricted parking for the disabled and toll relief, but I am also addressing the city as a whole. What was proposed on SubTalk was upping tolls on river crossings to $20, with no free river crossings. That is impractical and unrealistic, and would surely result in an economic death for New York. Its like I said to somebody in another post. Some railfans are so anti-car, that if they had their way, the streets of New York would look the way the streets of Moscow or East Berlin looked during the Soviet Era - no cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[What I was saying implied allowing unrestricted parking for the disabled and toll relief, but I am also addressing the city as a whole. What was proposed on SubTalk was upping tolls on river crossings to $20, with no free river crossings. That is impractical and unrealistic, and would surely result in an economic death for New York. Its like I said to somebody in another post. Some railfans are so anti-car, that if they had their way, the streets of New York would look the way the streets of Moscow or East Berlin looked during the Soviet Era - no cars.]
It seems to me you need a reasonable balance, one where traffic flows. And we're beyond that point now, in Midtown, anyway.
But you raise an interesting point. When you bid on a limited resource, its price goes up; that's effectively what we're doing here. As the price goes up, the area with the resource becomes less competitive economically, and that's exactly what would happen if we increased the cost of transportation.
*But*--since we can't build much in the way of new roads, the answer to that is to build reliable, comfortable, and economical mass transit. To turn the region's liability--its density--into a plus. That's my argument for direct airport service--we could not just equal, but *beat* the suburbs and other cities by offering high speed, convenient extension of the airport service. Similarly, the amazing density of the City's business districts can become an asset, if we use it to offer frequent mass transportation that fits everybody's needs. What I'm after is something that will make people *want* to get out of their cars, because it will be faster, more convenient, more comfortable. Take the worst case--if you were commuting from some place that didn't have a nearby rail line, what would be the most comfortable way to get in? Nobody wants to sit around in rush hour traffic--you'd probably want a reliable park and ride facility that took no longer, didn't cost much more than a toll and garage space in Manhattan, and was pretty much as comfortable as your car. Right now, we're very far away from that, which is why I think we have to change the way we do business at a fundamental level.
Boston's MBTA comissioned a study shortly after its creation in the early 1960's. This study showed that Boston was subsidizing each automobile commuter about $25,000 per annum. The figures were quite reliable and the study changed the political establishment's attitude towards the public/personal transit mix. One would assume that a much greater subsidy exists today in New York City.
The question for society is which and how many people should be so subsidized and how to pay for it. The problem is interesting because non-city residents prefer not to pay any taxes to New York City - as witness the forced repeal of the non-resident payroll tax. (The fact that Nassau County residents are equally reluctant to adequately finance their own local government is immaterial.)
"User fees" are one means for paying for such subsidies. However, your opposition to the $3.50 toll on TBTA bridges is misplaced. A greater percentage of the tolls goes to subsidizing the LIRR and MN than to NYCT. Your attitude seems even more ungrateful because there has to be some means for subsidizing your free rides.
I must confess that I have never been able to understand LI'ers dislike of having to use NYC bridges to get to the mainland. There have been numerous proposals to build bridges directly from Nassau and Suffolk Counties across the Sound. Really, if you don't like NYC's bridges, you should build your own.
[I must confess that I have never been able to understand LI'ers dislike of having to use NYC bridges to get to the mainland. There have been numerous proposals to build bridges directly from Nassau
and Suffolk Counties across the Sound. Really, if you don't like NYC's bridges, you should build your own.]
High tolls and heavy traffic. That explains the dislike.
[I must confess that I have never been able to understand LI'ers dislike of having to use NYC bridges to get to the mainland. There have been numerous proposals to build bridges directly from Nassau and Suffolk Counties across the Sound. Really, if you don't like NYC's bridges, you should build your own.]
I know one of the guys who torpedoed the Rye-Oyster Bay bridge, and it was purely a NIMBY thing--the bridge would have gone through his house.
Lesson: don't try to build bridges through the houses of people who employee more than 100,000 people, make campaign contributions, and still have their corporate headquarters in Manhattan.
The bridges and tunnels into NYC are one of the few cases where I believe tolls can be justified, because tolls that are sufficiently high serve to control traffic entering the city and thereby reducing congestion on city streets. Personally, I'd like to see the tolls raised to $15 or $20 on the bridges and tunnels, in conjunction with an initiative to build an additional rail tunnel into Manhattan from New Jersey and the establishment of passenger service to Staten Island from New Jersey over the old SIR North Shore serving an expanded Staten Island Ferry. Taking an increase from $4 to $20 at the Hudson River crossings as an example, I think that the fivefold increase in per-vehicle toll would cut traffic through these routes by approximately 40%, of which a significantly greater percentage would now be bus traffic. The bus toll discount would also be eliminated, so buses would also pay $20. This would have the effect of significantly reducing traffic congestion in the gateway areas, and reducing traffic in Manhattan by approximately 5% overall. Gross toll revenue would approximately triple, and net revenue would probably jump about 150%, given that there are some fixed costs of maintenance unrelated to the number of vehicles making the crossing. The additional toll revenue should be sufficient to fund the new rail initiatives and pay for the additional operating expense of the Staten Island Ferry. There's even another Jersey alternative, given that ferry operation is part of this plan - I know where there's a nice unused railroad terminal in Jersey City that could easily have ferry service restored....
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That would kill the city in no time flat. Some people need their cars. What about those who live on Long Island who want to go to NJ and vice-versa? What about delivery trucks and other shippers of freight? What about those who make their living on the road, such as those who go to appointments? You can't use mass transit for everything. What about computer services companies that make home and office calls, plumbers, electricians - just to name a few? Putting the tolls out of reach would cause a mass exodus from the city and drive those who provide services either away from the city or out of business. I can just see it - you call a plumber. He tells you "Bring me the sink". Probably what would really happen is there would be so few remaining plumbers that the guy would make an appointment with you for 3 weeks down the road.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Certainly costs will increase, but for most services such as you describe the toll is a relatively small part of the cost of doing business. Even for those who might be "just passing through" it's not going to represent a major portion of the cost. And, as Larry Littlefield has suggested in another portion of this thread, tolls based on peak usage times would east the impact to the "Sunday drivers" who are just going visiting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Certainly costs will increase, but for most services such as you describe the toll is a relatively small part of the cost of doing business.
Not so, if you're talking about increasing the tolls 3 or 4-fold, or more. When you have to pay frequently, it adds up pretty fast. To someone who has to use the toll roads for business several times a day, its comparable to hiking the subway fare to $5. By the end of the week, you will know where your paycheck went and why you're short of money. the cost of delivering goods and services will increase substantially. Even if yoiu don't have a car, you will feel it when you go to a store, eat in a restaurant, anything that you spend money on. that is not the way to reduce traffic in the city without hurting everybody. At least offer exemptions to thjose who use the roads for business. You're right, the pleasure riders should be penalized, but then its unfair to those on the Island. There's no easy solution.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Increasing tolls three or fourfold)
Not my idea. I'd just toll the free bridges with EZ Pass so money was available to build (transit and vehicular) tunnels to replace them.
The two-way TBTA toll is $7.00, less with a discount. That could be the on-peak toll. Off peak, maybe it would be $3.00. Having a toll on the free bridges would mean fewer people driving out of their way to avoid tolls. TBTA revenues would go up, so maybe they could cut the off-peak tolls to $3.00 round trip also.
Not my idea. I'd just toll the free bridges with EZ Pass so money was available to build (transit and vehicular) tunnels to replace them.
I didn't say it was your idea, just service cutting. The point I was trying to make is - couple service cuts on the subway with astronomically-increased bridge and tunnel tolls, and there would be a mass exodus from the city. The toll increase idea would put the thriving economy that NYC has been enjoying into a tailspin that it wouldn't be able to recover from. Businesses would either leave the city or go under, the cost of goods and services would skyrocket, and in turn, people would be forced to leave. Think about it. Plumbers, electricians, computer technicians, delivery and shipping companies would all feel it in the wallet. When they do, they don't absorb the extra costs, they're passed onto the consumer. Higher prices at the stores for goods and higher prices for services, higher prices at restaurants, higher cost of fuel. The higher cost of food would push people put.
Your proposal to toll the free bridges would even affect the economy, although not as drastically as what anom_e_mouse suggested. The economy is very delicately balanced. Its not too wise to mess with something that can snowball. The economy is doing good. Why mess with it? If you want to do something to raise revenue, increase the gasoline tax by a few cents per gallon. It won't be felt that much, but believe me, those pennies will add up, and quickly.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Don't mess with it)
That's something I hear all too often in NYC. Unfortunately, if you don't try to figure out ways to move ahead, you rot. NYC's problem is that it is stagnant, and falls behind.
The thing that is driving businesses out is rising real estate costs. There is only so much room in Manhattan, and when we reach a certain level, rents start to rise. There are places to move and build in Brooklyn and Queens, but NIMBY residents like living next to deserted former business areas -- less traffic they say -- and sqwak anytime anyone wants to do anything.
One other thing. My little girl is now struggling with script. Aside from my signature, I haven't used script in 20 years. The school she goes to does not teach her to type.
If they reduced the time they spent on script and shifted resources to teaching typing, would that be a service cut? If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
I do tell her that she can't go on the internet until she learns to type.
One other thing. My little girl is now struggling with script. Aside from my signature, I haven't used script in 20 years. The school she goes to does not teach her to type.
If they reduced the time they spent on script and shifted resources to teaching typing, would that be a service cut? If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
I do tell her that she can't go on the internet until she learns to type.
Bfore, you wanted to cut rapid transit service to further education. Now, you're comparing teaching one thing as opposed to another. No, cutting out teaching script and substituting typing is not a service cut, but any reduction in transit service is. As for the typing, I'm sure your daughter will learn how to type sometime in her school career. Maybe its just not time yet. Anyone knows that typing is important these days, with computers. When I went to school, it was not taught. I never learned to type. Yet I do pretty good on the Internet with my 2 index fingers, and I design web sites for a living. Getting back to script, we learn alot of stuff that we never use outside the classroom. They say it makes a rounded education.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[One other thing. My little girl is now struggling with script. Aside from my signature, I haven't used script in 20 years. The school she goes to does not teach her to type.
If they reduced the time they spent on script and shifted resources to teaching typing, would that be a service cut? If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
I do tell her that she can't go on the internet until she learns to type.]
That's so typical--all that guff about computer literacy and they don't teach kids to type. Kids will teach themselves the former, if they have computers to play with, but I know computer professionals who hunt and peck with two fingers, and all I can say is I'm glad I'm not them!
As far as your daughter's concerned, I don't think there's any age too young to start. I learned in fourth grade, and that head start made me the fastest typist I know (as those who see the volume of my posts may have guessed, LOL)--it's been a real blessing over the years.
[The thing that is driving businesses out is rising real estate costs. There is only so much room in Manhattan, and when we reach a certain level, rents start to rise. There are places to move and build
in Brooklyn and Queens, but NIMBY residents like living next to deserted former business areas -- less traffic they say -- and sqwak anytime anyone wants to do anything.]
Brooklyn's and Queens' loss is Jersey City's gain.
Brooklyn's and Queens' loss is Jersey City's gain.
Any loss to anywhere in New York State is New Jersey's gain. Just this evening, my wife (who is not from New York, so she's an unbiased 3rd party) told me that whenever I mention anything about New Jersey, I have such hate in my voice. I explained how New Jersey raped New York, how so much industry has moved across the river, and people too. Being a native New Yorker and loving my city the way I do, I've always resented what New Jersey did to take from New York what it had - even its sports teams. I'm a big Yankee fan, but if the Yankees move across the river, I'll want nothing more to do with them. My wife is from Detroit. I asked her how she would feel if industry, offices and sports teams picked up and went across the border to Windsor, Canada. Same thing. She didn't like it when Motown left Detroit for California.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Any loss to anywhere in New York State is New Jersey's gain. Just this evening, my wife (who is not from New York, so she's an unbiased 3rd party) told me that whenever I mention anything about New Jersey, I have such hate in my voice. I explained how New Jersey raped New York, how so much industry has moved across the river, and people too. Being a native New Yorker and loving my city the way I do, I've always resented what New Jersey did to take from New York what it had - even its sports teams. I'm a big Yankee fan, but if the Yankees move across the river, I'll want nothing more to do with them.]
You're being unfair to New Jersey. Businesses that move to New Jeersey (or Connecticut, or Westchester, or Long Island, or anywhere else for that matter) do so because they've decided that moving will increase profitability. People who move elsewhere do so either for economic or quality-of-life reasons. New Jersey and other places may offer incentives for New York businesses that want to relocate, but I would not call that practice "rape." Indeed, economic competition of that sort, like it or not, is a fact of life throughout the entire country.
Besides, New York is more than holding its own these days. As I noted earlier, some businesses that might have considered the outer boroughs are instead going to Jersey City because that's where the space is available. But Manhattan's commercial vacancy rate remains low, and rents are high (though not quite high enough for spec building).
You're being unfair to New Jersey. Businesses that move to New Jeersey (or Connecticut, or Westchester, or Long Island, or anywhere else for that matter) do so because they've decided that moving will increase profitability. People who move elsewhere do so either for economic or quality-of-life reasons. New Jersey and other places may offer incentives for New York businesses that want to relocate, but I would not call that practice "rape." Indeed, economic competition of that sort, like it or not, is a fact of life throughout the entire country.
I call it rape when New Jersey entices industry to move across the river. They are trying to get the Yankees. They have most everything else already. Things were fine in NYC until New Jersey got her claws into alot of things. Even Ellis Island. Next it will be Manhattan. I have no problem if businesses move to LI or Westchester. At least it is still New York. You seem to be a staunch defender of New Jersey. Are you from there?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I like what Cumeo (The former Gov) stated, you take the Yankees, we legalize gambling.
[I like what Cumeo (The former Gov) stated, you take the Yankees, we legalize gambling.]
Clever!
I'm surprised that the City doesn't do more of that; instead, we let people walk all over us.
[Any loss to anywhere in New York State is New Jersey's gain. Just this evening, my wife (who is not from New York, so she's an unbiased 3rd party) told me that whenever I mention anything about New Jersey, I have such hate in my voice. I explained how New Jersey raped New York, how so much industry has moved across the river, and people too. Being a native New Yorker and loving my city the way I do, I've always resented what New Jersey did to take from New York what it had - even its sports teams. I'm a big Yankee fan, but if the Yankees move across the river, I'll want nothing more to do with them. My wife is from Detroit. I asked her how she would feel if industry, offices and sports teams picked up and went across the border to Windsor, Canada. Same thing. She didn't like it when Motown left Detroit for California.]
Now here's a question I've had in the back of my mind for some time--if a team isn't actually in New York, what gives it the right to call itself New York anything? Isn't that false advertising? Why can't the City sue?
At the same time, I understand that the Meadowlands has been a drain on New Jersey's finances. Seems to me that building stadiums is about the last thing a locality should do; the new jobs just don't make up for the cost.
A good example of how subsidies, whether offered by New York or New Jersey, ultimately hurt the region's economy.
[Now here's a question I've had in the back of my mind for some time--if a team isn't actually in New York, what gives it the
right to call itself New York anything? Isn't that false advertising? Why can't the City sue?]
New York, as in the names of the Jets and Giants, can be interpreted as "New York metropolitan area." That's not false advertising, in my book.
No one accuses the Washington Redskins of having a misleading name even though they now play in Maryland.
[New York, as in the names of the Jets and Giants, can be interpreted as "New York metropolitan area." That's not false advertising, in my book.
No one accuses the Washington Redskins of having a misleading name even though they now play in Maryland.]
I don't know, seems to me that's stretching things . . .
I don't know, seems to me that's stretching things . . .
There seems to be alot of "stretching" going on as far as that's concerned. The Detroit Lions and the Detroit Pistons don't play in Detroit. They play in Pontiac, a separate city.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[There seems to be alot of "stretching" going on as far as that's concerned. The Detroit Lions and the Detroit Pistons don't play in Detroit. They play in Pontiac, a separate city.]
"Pontiac Pistons" would sound pretty good . . .
[The thing that is driving businesses out is rising real estate costs. There is only so much room in Manhattan, and when we reach a certain level, rents start to rise.]
Manhattan rents may not be as high as you might imagine. Sure, they're no bargain, but they're not yet so high as to spur office construction on a spec basis. Each of the three big highrise buildings now under construction - Reuters, Bear Stearns, and Morgan Stanley - was substantially preleased (mostly to the name tenants) before any work began. In contrast, at least a couple of the new buildings in Jersey City are going up on spec, as is Reckson's new office-park development in Melville.
But spec constuction does have its drawbacks. Several new spec office buildings have opened, or are about to open, in downtown Chicago. Unfortunately, a couple of big mergers (I believe BP-Amoco and Ameritech-SBC) have significantly reduced downtown employment levels and space demands. As a result, Chicago's vacancy rate has at least temporarily risen to worrisome levels.
[Manhattan rents may not be as high as you might imagine. Sure, they're no bargain, but they're not yet so high as to spur office construction on a spec basis. Each of the three big highrise buildings now under construction - Reuters, Bear Stearns, and Morgan Stanley - was substantially preleased (mostly to the name tenants) before any work began. In contrast, at least a couple of the new buildings in Jersey City are going up on spec, as is Reckson's new office-park development in Melville.
But spec constuction does have its drawbacks. Several new spec office buildings have opened, or are about to open, in downtown Chicago. Unfortunately, a couple of big mergers (I believe BP-Amoco and Ameritech-SBC) have significantly reduced downtown employment levels and space demands. As a result, Chicago's vacancy rate has at least temporarily risen to worrisome levels.]
How much of that has to do with actual demand, and how much with the persistent boom-bust cycle in Manhattan real estate? I've heard that developers are reluctant to commit after having been burned the last time around. (And as always, I suspect that it's the guy who goes against the flow who will make the money.)
[re lack of speculative office construction despite high rents]
[How much of that has to do with actual demand, and how much with the persistent boom-bust cycle in Manhattan real estate? I've heard that developers are reluctant to commit after having been burned the last time around. (And as always, I suspect that it's the guy who goes against the flow who will make the money.)]
Fears of another bust indeed are a big factor. These fears are a bigger issue for big institutional lenders, who tend to be risk-avoiders by nature, than for developers, who tend to be risk-takers. Pre-leased buildings are much less of a risk for the lenders while still allowing the developers to make plenty of money. Everybody wins, except possibly for a few of the more daring - or, you might say, reckless - developers, who miss the even greater money to be had from spec construction.
As significant as they are, lender fears can't be the whole story why there's so little spec construction. Commercial real estate has had a long boom-bust history in most places, not just Manhattan. Yet spec construction has begun, albeit at a limited pace, in many other places, even just across the river in Jersey City. My take on the situation is that Manhattan construction costs are just so absurdly high that rents still aren't quite high enough to justify the risks of spec construction. Pre-leased construction, being of lower risk, can take place with lower rent levels, which of course is exactly what we're seeing these days.
[Your proposal to toll the free bridges would even affect the economy, although not as drastically as what anom_e_mouse suggested. The economy is very delicately balanced. Its not too wise to mess with something that can snowball. The economy is doing good. Why mess with it? If you want to do something to raise revenue, increase the gasoline tax by a few cents per gallon. It won't be felt that much, but believe me, those pennies will add up, and quickly.]
It's not just the City's economy that would suffer from excessive tolls. Long Island is cut off from the rest of the country by toll bridges and tunnels. Higher tolls would hurt Long Island businesses even though they get little in return.
I would like to see *all* tolls either abolished or drastically reduced, with enormous cuts in health care expenditures. There'd be far *more* money available for transit!
Something like this would clog the subways completely. Why should busses have to pay the high tolls too? It would take decades to build new subway tunnels and the lines to which they would have to connect.
Say goodbye to to a vital, flourishing Manhattan.
What would it cost to build new tunnels under the East River? We are talking about two to replace the tracks on the Manny B. and Willie B. Would the tunnel under the Manny B. have to be 4 tubes to accomidate the 6th Ave. and Broadway lines? Finally wouldn't there be enough NIMBY's and environmentals to block or scream about that construction as well? For the Willie B., where would you put the portal on the Brooklyn side to get the J,M and Z trains undergroung?
Let's say for a moment that we really needed to replace these bridges for transit service. Here is what I would recommend.
For the Manhattan Bridge, if you connect the A and B tracks to the Rutgers tunnel, and branch the Nassau St line off into the 6th Avenue express tracks at Grand Street, I believe those connections and a two-track tunnel would replace the bridge. No four track tunnel is required. You could run, say, the B through the Rutgers tunnel with the F, and the D and Q through the new tunnel.
In fact, if you were to convert the LIRR Flatbush Branch to B division service, as some would like, with new signals I'd bet you could run it AND the D/Q through a single two-track tunnel. I'd have the Brighton after Atlantic and the LIRR Flatbush merge into the unused local tracks at Hoyt-Schemerhorn (the C would have to merge with the A a little sooner). The train would stop at Hoyt Schemerhorn, at Court Street, pass through a new tunnel, and then head for the Second Avenue Subway (this is a fantasy, isn't it?) There is your express LIRR to Lower Manhattan access. And the bridge is replaced.
As for the Willie B, if the G was a real subway, you wouldn't need the J/Z/M much at all. So I'd reconfigure Hoyt-Schemerhorn to allow the G to merge into the F tracks TOWARD, NOT AWAY FROM Jay Street, and hook it up to the 63rd Street tunnel. It would run as a loop, sharing the 63rd St tunnel and Rutgers tunnels with other lines. With that, and more trains on the A/C and L, plus the new Atlantic Avenue subway, most people could walk to a direct train. The J/M/Z could be converted to light rail for those that want to transfer rather than walk.
I've got a few problems with this.
First, you didn't address the Broadway Line. Would that line remain only N and R service throught the Montigue Street Tunnel, or would we reemploy express service and have those trains use the new Manny B. replacement tunnel. (Hence my question about it being 4 tubes.)
Second, if we reroute the G as you suggested, what happens to G service between Queens Plaza (or Court Square) and Hoyt? Does it run as a shuttle train?
Finally, are you suggesting that all Middle Village and Ridgewood riders on the M transfer to the L? And all J/Z riders east of Eastern Parkway transfer to the A/C? What do riders west of Eastern Parkway do and the riders on the M between the L connection and Myrtle do? Everyone is not accessable to the LIRR. There is also the additional cost of riding the LIRR to consider.
Mark
I've got a few problems with this.
First, you didn't address the Broadway Line. Would that line remain only N and R service throught the Montigue Street Tunnel, or would we reemploy express service and have those trains use the new Manny B. replacement tunnel. (Hence my question about it being 4 tubes.)
Second, if we reroute the G as you suggested, what happens to G service between Queens Plaza (or Court Square) and Hoyt? Does it run as a shuttle train?
Finally, are you suggesting that all Middle Village and Ridgewood riders on the M transfer to the L? And all J/Z riders east of Eastern Parkway transfer to the A/C? What do riders west of Eastern Parkway do and the riders on the M between the L connection and Myrtle do? Everyone is not accessable to the LIRR. There is also the additional cost of riding the LIRR to consider.
Mark
It seems that the both of us were giving Larry L. pretty much the same reply at the same time. The more I read his posts, the more convinced I am that he's just looking for ways of cutting and eliminating service, and scaling down the rapid transit system. Wasn't it he also that proposed shutting down 90% of the subway at night and substituting it with bus service? The more I try to get my point across about how fortunate NYC is to have the elaborate transit system that it does, so that people aren't dependent on their cars, by letting them know how lacking public transportation is in other parts of the country, the more I see that I'm wasting my time. There are always some people that seem hell-bent on cutting and eliminating transit service. All of you that propose cutting and eliminating transit service, come on down to Florida. Live here for a few years. If you don't have a driver's licence, you better get one. If you don't own a good reliable car, you better get one.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I see we are in total agreement. When I have been visiting other cities, even those that have subway's, many more modern than New York's, I am always struck by the fact they often don't go everywhere and don't run 24/7. They may offer better airport service than we do, but the average commuter going to work dosen't need to get to the airport, unless he or she is an airline or airport employee.
In Florida, or LA, it's a car or death. I would say that the majority of people I know who live im Manhattan, do not own cars. Queens, were I live, more people are car owners, but many parts are more surburban and don't have much transit. The eastern section of the boro has no subway service at all, and is difficult to get around without a car. Not as hard as Florida, but nothing like Manhattan and Central Brooklyn.
New York does not need to cut back, it needs to add to get more cars on the road. We have to give Robert Moses credit for designing our highway, bridge and tunnel system, but had he not been disdainfull of mass transit, and had considered building subway ROW's adjacent to highways and bridges, this city would be a different place.
I see we are in total agreement. When I have been visiting other cities, even those that have subway's, many more modern than New York's, I am always struck by the fact they often don't go everywhere and don't run 24/7. They may offer better airport service than we do, but the average commuter going to work dosen't need to get to the airport, unless he or she is an airline or airport employee.
In Florida, or LA, it's a car or death. I would say that the majority of people I know who live im Manhattan, do not own cars. Queens, were I live, more people are car owners, but many parts are more surburban and don't have much transit. The eastern section of the boro has no subway service at all, and is difficult to get around without a car. Not as hard as Florida, but nothing like Manhattan and Central Brooklyn.
New York does not need to cut back, it needs to add to get more cars on the road. We have to give Robert Moses credit for designing our highway, bridge and tunnel system, but had he not been disdainfull of mass transit, and had considered building subway ROW's adjacent to highways and bridges, this city would be a different place.
I know all about New York. I was born and raised there. I spent the first 13 years of my life in Stuyvesant Town in Manhattan near the First Avenue station on the 14th St. Line. I spent the next 7 years in Queens on 98th Place off of 57th Ave., followed by another 6 years on 97th Place off of 57th Ave., before moving to Florida.
You're right. New York does need more, not less rapid transit service. I remember the overcrowded conditions on the Queens IND Line, the 7, and many other lines. Like I asked in a previous post that noone answered, do they still refer to subway cars as cattle cars and sardine cans? BTW, I distinctly remember going to work one morning back in the late 1970's. I had just gotten off of the GG and I needed the E. To miss the E that was in the station at Roosevelt Ave. would have meant being late for work. The train was so jam-packed, I couldn't push my way into the car, so I folded back the pantograph gate, got on between cars and rode between cars until Lexington Ave., when I was able to get inside the car. It was an R-38, BTW.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This is interesting. I used to live on 59th Avenue just off 99th Street. Across the street from the former UA Theatre in Lefrak City. This was from 1968 to 1979. From 72-76, I got on the subway every morning at Woodhaven Blvd. to go to Stuyvesant H.S. I wonder if our paths crossed? Perhaps we were both waiting for 20 minutes for a EE or GG to go the three stops back to Woodhaven, and the crowd was ready to fall off on to the express track.
This is interesting. I used to live on 59th Avenue just off 99th Street. Across the street from the former UA Theatre in Lefrak City. This was from 1968 to 1979. From 72-76, I got on the subway every morning at Woodhaven Blvd. to go to Stuyvesant H.S. I wonder if our paths crossed? Perhaps we were both waiting for 20 minutes for a EE or GG to go the three stops back to Woodhaven, and the crowd was ready to fall off on to the express track.
You lived in the Sherwood Village Co-ops. When I lived on 98th Place, I was in the Sherwood Village rental apartments. I lived in the Nebraska Building. Then, I moved 2 blocks away to a private house on 97th Place. I left Queens in 1980 for Florida.
During those same years that you went to Stuyvesant HS, I too took the EE at Woodhaven to 23rd St. and Broadway to go to Baruch College. Every morning, I would exit to the street at the Flatiron Building and head east to Lexinton Ave. Often times, going home, I would take the 6 to Grand Central and the 7 express to Junction Blvd. and walk home from there. It was only a mile. Alot of times, after school, I'd take an excursion to Coney Island on the Museum R-1/9 QB and then head home on the F.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
On my way home from Stuy, I would often take different routes as well. I did the #7 to Junction also. My walk was a bit longer as our apartment was further from the station than yours. When I went to Woodhaven, I usually cut through Lefrak City. At the time you could do it and it was safe. All the access was cut off in the late 1970's.
When I went to Woodhaven, I usually cut through Lefrak City. At the time you could do it and it was safe. All the access was cut off in the late 1970's.
By the mid 1970's, I didn't dare to venture into Lefrak anymore. It went down the tubes once they started renting to welfare families, 2 and 3 families to an apartment. It became no better than the city projects. The Sherwood rentals were filling up with the same element. That's why I moved down the street to a private house in 1974. At the time, that little enclave 1/2 block from Lefrak was still decent. Things finally got way out of hand in that neighborhood by the late 1970's. I was around the corner from Waldbaum's. Every time I would pass there, I was always asked if I wanted some coke or ludes. After dark, the sound of gunfire and police sirens became pretty common. Where you were on 99th St. was no better. One January evening in 1980 coming home from work, I was jumped on the corner of 57th Ave. and 97th Place, 1/2 block from my house by 3 thugs. I wouldn't even bother walking down 57th Ave. anymore after that. Being in the middle of the block, I opted to take 55th Ave. until Junction Blvd. and then swing over to 57th on the way to and from the subway. Up until the point when I got mugged, I always felt safe in the neighborhood, even though it was becoming bad. I didn't even bother looking over my shoulder walking home from the Subway at even 3 AM. After the mugging, I became very "gun" shy (no pun intended) about walking down 57th Ave. After all, I was jumped at 5:30 PM. There were plenty of people on the street. As usual, as long as it wasn't them, nobody gave a sh--.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The neighborhood started to change by 1974. Around 1976-77 is when the neighborhood began its deep slide. We lived in the Coop's so those buildings were still ok. Everywhere around us was not. The UA Theatre closed as did the East New York Savings bank on 99th Street. I was away at college for a couple of years and only spent the summers there. I transferred back to New York in 1979 and lived there with my parents until September when I moved to Kew Gardens.
My parents still live there so I go back there on a regular basis. In recent years much of the drug dealing has been on the decline. Lefrak City has had a tremendous influx of Russian Jews. They have their own Synagogue on the premises and have opened up their own kosher butcher on 99th St. I would say that the neighborhood has improved slightly and has stabelized. For a while, I would never park my car on the street there, but I am not as concerned any more.
The bigger problem is you can't find parking any more. It is much more congested that it used to be with several new apartment buildings having been constructed where the Rego Forest Country Club used to be. The neighborhood always had excellent express bus service from Triboro Coach and it still does. Both the Q88 up Horris Harding and one other bus, I forget the number go to Woodhaven Blvd Station, so since double fares are gone, one does not have to make the walk any longer.
The Waldbaums is gone, its a different supermarket now, I don't recall which one. Also, Alexanders went out of business and the store on Queens Blvd and 63rd Road is now a Sears. Macy's moved from the round store on Queens Blvd. to take A&S's spot in the Queens Center Mall when A&S went out of business. The round store is now Sterns.
The bigger problem is you can't find parking any more. It is much more congested that it used to be with several new apartment buildings having been constructed where the Rego Forest Country Club used to be. The neighborhood always had excellent express bus service from Triboro Coach and it still does. Both the Q88 up Horris Harding and one other bus, I forget the number go to Woodhaven Blvd Station, so since double fares are gone, one does not have to make the walk any longer.
The Waldbaums is gone, its a different supermarket now, I don't recall which one. Also, Alexanders went out of business and the store on Queens Blvd and 63rd Road is now a Sears. Macy's moved from the round store on Queens Blvd. to take A&S's spot in the Queens Center Mall when A&S went out of business. The round store is now Sterns.
I took the Triboro Express Bus into work at times when I worked at WTC. The Triboro bus that ran to Woodhaven Blvd. is the Q-38. At 92nd St. you could get the Q-29 which went to 82nd St. and Roosevelt Ave. All of this is bery interesting news about Alexander's, Macy's, A & S and Waldbaums. Hey, its been 20 years. I think I would have been even more surprised if nothing had changed. Hey, its good to talk about the old neighborhood. After all, I did live there for 13 years. As for UA Lefrak, when it closed, an Indian theater named the Bombay Cinerama opened, featuring Indian movies. I don't know if that's still there. Who knows, with the large Russian influx, maybe its a Russian theater by now!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That round Sears is due to change too. To be gutted and turned into a Mall with movie theater.
Joe C
More memories, my aunt and grandmother moved to 88-04 63rd Drive, in 1955, I remember the old Rego Park Station on the Ozone Park Line, I used to go from school in Brooklyn there for Friday Night dinner via the old Brighton Local all the way, but sometimes I was in a hurry and took the Exp to 57th and then changed to the local, well I took my old Kodak Brownie Camera, sat on the platform and took pictures of the LIRR, they still had some old K-4sand other Steam from the PRR, The Fairbank Morse Diesals and other equipment. I wish I knew where some of those photos have gone. I used to wait for my dad who took the last of the 3 trains from Penn Station to Rego Park on the Ozone Park Line.
Wasn't the Rego Pk Station on the Main Line just before the Rockaway Line cutoff? You wouldn't see locomotives on the Rockaway Line except for the occasional freight train.
I heard that they planned on adding several levels to it. What you are saying makes more sense. I can't see the residents in that area tollerating a structure any higher than the current store.
The Bombay Cinema lasted about 2 years. The location is no longer a theatre, its now a store that sells general merchandise. Some hardware also since L.H. Martins is also long gone.
The Bombay Cinema lasted about 2 years. The location is no longer a theatre, its now a store that sells general merchandise. Some hardware also since L.H. Martins is also long gone.
I used to patronize LH Matin all the time. I still have a needle nose plier and a small metal tool box that I bought there back in 1968.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What I loved about that store was the automatic change machine. They had one years before anyone else did.
What I loved about that store was the automatic change machine. They had one years before anyone else did.
Sorry, but that's one thing I don't remember at LH Martin.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When you paid at the cashier, the cashier didn't have to count the change, a machine automaticly spat out the correct change. This was for coins only. They still had to give you back and dollar bills by hand. It was years until I saw that kind of machine anywhere else.
They use them at Wendy's.
When you paid at the cashier, the cashier didn't have to count the change, a machine automaticly spat out the correct change. This was for coins only. They still had to give you back and dollar bills by hand. It was years until I saw that kind of machine anywhere else.
I've seen those in places from time to time. I just don't remember them at LH Martins.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I should have checked my grammer before I sent the last message. What I meant to say was we need to add more mass transit to get the cars off of the road.
I should have checked my grammer before I sent the last message. What I meant to say was we need to add more mass transit to get the cars off of the road.
I don't remember exactly what you posted, but that's what I took it to mean.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[It seems that the both of us were giving Larry L. pretty much the same reply at the same time. The more I read his posts, the more convinced I am that he's just looking for ways of cutting and eliminating service, and scaling down the rapid transit system. Wasn't it he also that proposed shutting down 90% of the subway at night and substituting it with bus service? The more I try to get my point across about how fortunate NYC is to have the elaborate transit system that it does, so that people aren't dependent on their cars, by letting them know how lacking public transportation is in other parts of the country, the more I see that I'm wasting my time. There are always some people that seem hell-bent on cutting and eliminating transit service. All of you that propose cutting and eliminating transit service, come on down to Florida. Live here for a few years. If you don't have a driver's licence, you better get one. If you don't own a good reliable car, you better get one.]
It seems to me that the point isn't to eliminate service to save money--we can certainly afford the service levels we have--but to free up money so that it can be spent where it will do more good. There are massively underserved areas, and lines that are seriously overcrowded. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money there?
please !! bring this to LOST ANGELES !! ( los angeles ) we need that attitude here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Please !! bring this to LOST ANGELES !! ( los angeles ) we need that attitude here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Good luck--you & just about everyone else!
It seems to me that the point isn't to eliminate service to save money--we can certainly afford the service levels we have--but to free up money so that it can be spent where it will do more good. There are massively underserved areas, and lines that are seriously overcrowded. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money there?
Not if it means eliminating existing rapid transit service. If you end Broadway Brooklyn service and replace it with light rail, what are the people along Jamaica Ave. in Richmond Hill supposed to do for transportation? And, what about those in Ridgewood? No more thru service to Manhattan? Do the J people have to change for the A or the L? Do the M people have to change for the L? what is being proposed is elimination of the el on Broadway. That would create 2 isolated and unconnected shuttles - the J and the M. At least the J would still be physically connected to the system. The M wouldn't. Gross inconvenience + additional travel time = service cut. This service cut would adversely affect multitudes in the worst way. As for lines being seriously overcrowded, what do you think elimination of the Broadway el would do to other existing lines. It would be no different than what happened on the Lex without 2nd or 3rd Ave. El service. This proposal is pure folly.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Not if it means eliminating existing rapid transit service. If you end Broadway Brooklyn service and replace it with light rail, what are the people along Jamaica Ave. in Richmond Hill supposed to do for transportation? And, what about those in Ridgewood? No more thru service to Manhattan? Do the J people have to change for the A or the L? Do the M people have to change for the L? what is being proposed is elimination of the el on Broadway. That would create 2 isolated and unconnected shuttles - the J and the M. At least the J would still be physically connected to the system. The M wouldn't. Gross inconvenience + additional travel time = service cut. This service cut would adversely affect multitudes in the worst way. As for lines being seriously overcrowded, what do you think elimination of the Broadway el would do to other existing lines. It would be no different than what happened on the Lex without 2nd or 3rd Ave. El service. This proposal is pure folly.]
Maybe. I wasn't responding to Larry's proposal per se because I'm not familiar enough with ridership patterns on those lines to comment pro or con, just trying to make a general point.
(Larry Littlefield is in favor of cutting service)
Larry Littlefield is against the idea that once you get a certain amount of public money coming your way, you are entitled to keep getting it whether you need it or not, deserve it or not, and too bad for everyone and everything else.
Every decision to spend money on A is also a decision to not spend money on B. Every NON-DECISION to keep spending money on A is a decision not to spend money on B.
People who are unwilling to look for efficiencies are either:
1) In favor of raising taxes constantly to address every new problem, until the city and state collapse, or:
2) In favor of keeping everyone and everything that is now screwed permanently screwed.
And what is screwed in New York, relative to other places, according to relative tax and spending data? The education of poor children, esp. Black and Latino Children. The maintenance of the physical plant (ie. schools, bridges) Long term improvements to the transportation system. New businesses (without tax breaks).
If you are against finding efficiencies, than you are in FAVOR OF KEEPING THESE OTHER THINGS DISADVANTAGED.
If you are against finding efficiencies, than you are in FAVOR OF KEEPING THESE OTHER THINGS DISADVANTAGED.
What do cuts in rapid transit service have to do with educating poor children? Razing the Broadway-Brooklyn El would just make life difficult for alot of innocent people. Education for the economically disadvantaged is definately a problem that needs to be addressed, but not at the expense of rapid transit. Wasn't the lottery supposed to go for education? Or was that just an excuse to legalize state-sponsored gambling? Everyone needs to wake up to the fact that the middle class and the working class have been screwed enough. The rich are a sacred cow, with all their tax shelters, and those who don't want to work are on the public dole. Those who provide the biggest tax base, the middle class and the working class are the ones getting screwed. They are the ones that would feel cuts in rapid transit service. And they are the ones that will flee the city if they keep getting choked. Then, where will tax revenue come from to pay for either? I don't understand your logic, and I also don't understand how someone could be interested in trains, yet be so anti-transit. Well, the City's 9 million people can sleep tonight knowing that none of your ideas will come to pass.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The point is that NYC's spending priorities are hopelessly [deleted]-up. Health care spending is vastly higher than anywhere else and serves no useful purpose. New Yorkers don't have an average life expectancy of 100, which is what you'd expect given the amount of money squandered on their health care. What's really bad is that all the wasteful health care spending gobbles up money that's urgently needed elsewhere. Transportation in general, and transit in particular, is one area that's shortchanged.
The point is that NYC's spending priorities are hopelessly [deleted]-up. Health care spending is vastly higher than anywhere else and serves no useful purpose. New Yorkers don't have an average life expectancy of 100, which is what you'd expect given the amount of money squandered on their health care. What's really bad is that all the wasteful health care spending gobbles up money that's urgently needed elsewhere. Transportation in general, and transit in particular, is one area that's shortchanged.
Tell that to Larry Littlefield. He's the one who wants to cut transit service to have more to spend on education for economically disadvantaged children. I am outraged by his proposals. Cutting transit will only drive more people from the city, and not to the suburbs either. They will want to get away from the miserable transit service that Larry is proposing. there's nothing worse than being trapped, having to depend on horrible transit service. Its much better to have transit service as opposed to having to rely on your car, but the transit service must be acceptable, not half-ass. Could you imagine living near Metropolitan Ave. on the M and having to transfer to the L to get into Manhattan during rush hour, or living near the Woodhaven Blvd. station on the jamaica El and having to transfer to the L or A in rush hour to get to Manhattan. Could you imagine living near Broadway in Brooklyn and having only light rail service on the street?
Larry, you're nuts!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
OK, OK I agree. We need a six track tunnel to replace the Willie B, with a station at S. 4th Street, and a new four track subway down Broadway.
OK, OK I agree. We need a six track tunnel to replace the Willie B, with a station at S. 4th Street, and a new four track subway down Broadway.
There's no need to get sarcastic about any of this. All I'm saying is that all existing lines should be kept and maintained, along with necessary expansion. The expansion would include a Second Ave. Subway connecting with the 63rd St. Tunnel Complex and a four-track replacement tunnel for the Manny B. subway tracks. I wouldn't think the Willy B. tracks are in need of a replacement tunnel. The transit system is the lifeblood of New York City and service should not be cut. To demonstrate how vital the transit system is, last November and December, with the threat of a transit strike looming over the city, what was the #1 thought on peoples minds? What was the busiest thread on SubTalk. You know what chaos a subway strike brings to the city. Service can't be cut anymore that it already has. As for education, NY has one of the finest school systems in the country. If kids can't get a decent education in NY, they can't get it anywhere. Florida has one of the worst school systems in the country, but I found out that one state is worse - Louisiana. NY has the best of just about everything. Be content with what you have. It could be alot worse.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Florida has about the worst school system in the country but there is one state worse -- Louisiana)
NY has the about the worst credit rating in the country but there is one state worse -- Louisiana. Sounds like I won't be moving to Louisiana anytime soon.
My only point is that if you want to improve transit, and money is not unlimited, you have to look at ways to improve cost effectiveness. The past is not good enough. You have to keep moving ahead. It is, however, fair to say the replacement should be operating before older routes are abandoned, given the 2nd Ave subway history.
My only point is that if you want to improve transit, and money is not unlimited, you have to look at ways to improve cost effectiveness. The past is not good enough. You have to keep moving ahead. It is, however, fair to say the replacement should be operating before older routes are abandoned, given the 2nd Ave subway history.
well, a good way to raise money for things is a bond issue, if the money isn't diverted to something else, like with the Second Ave. Subway. Another way is to trim the entitlement programs budget. In most other states, including Florida, the only money that is spent on entitlement programs (btw, I'm talking about welfare) is what the Feds offer. NYS and NYC kick in alot of their own money for these entitlement programs. I was a welfare caseworker in both states. Florida offers the federally-funded AFDC only. Florida doesn't pay for anything additional beyond what the Feds pay for. NY, in addition to kicking in more of their own money for AFDC also pays for Home Relief for those who don't qualify for AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children). Maybe this explains why so many people in NYC are on the public dole. No wonder so many people who don't want to work flock to NYC. If you want to cut something to free up money for other things that are needed, cut welfare. Those who are unable to work due to disability should be taken care of. Able-bodied lazy people who don't want to work should have their benefits cut off. Enough madness. I'll never forget what one recipient said to me when I asked "have you worked in the past 3 months"? She stood up, and proudly said to me with a smile on her face "Sir, I've never worked a day in my life". Enough of this madness. That's where money needed for other things should come from.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(If you want to cut something, cut welfare)
You'll be pleased to know that the amount of money actually going to poor people in NYC has been cut back by 40 percent.
However, money actually going to poor people is just a small part of NYC's social services spending. The poor are cheap. Liberals who make money providing services to the poor are expensive. Sharks who don't give a damn about the poor but are simply sucking up money cost the most of all.
However, money actually going to poor people is just a small part of NYC's social services spending. The poor are cheap. Liberals who make money providing services to the poor are expensive. Sharks who don't give a damn about the poor but are simply sucking up money cost the most of all.
Its the all-too-typical "too many chiefs, not enough indians" thing, just like at the TA. The State agency that I worked for in Florida overworked and underpaid the peons, which is why I walked, but there are people in high positions that hardly work and make the kind of money that would make you sick. Some of these positions are political appointments and some are not. Unlike in NY where everything is Civil Service and requires a test, jobs with the State of Florida require no test and are given to those that "know" someone, or are "liked" by someone. The atmosphere is conducive to butt kissing. I never got a promotion in the 10 years that I worked for them because I wasn't one of the pets and I didn't kiss anybody's butt. There's alot of waste in government, and its mostly some s--thead doing favors for some other s--thead.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
look folks i have experence in being on welfare ! and i needed it or i would be in he streets!!!
dont come to california few jobs out here !! why complain about welfare reciepents when many & most are
disabled have one mark on thier police or past convictions etc.... then nobody wahts to hire you !!
foregin aid and the weapons industries waste more money!!! and the money that government wasts on ...........
.............................. CORPORATE WELFARE !!!.....................
now if you really want to get MAD how about the welfare reciepents who are used all over the country to
lay off and fire UNION PAID transit workers and REPLACING them with HOMELESS shelter forced ""workfare"
and workfare and FORCED "" welfare to work "" SCAMS....... but first you fire union paid transit workers???
so i do not understand having been on welfare myself ( general relief ) why some persons get so mad !!!!
whats wrong are the UNION PAID TRANSIT WORKERS being dissaplaced and removed from employment..
AND FORCED INTO UNEMPLOYMENT- AND THE """ WORKFARE "" lines.....
im not shouting san francisco put up a horrific fight about the welfare reciepents being used to destroy UNIONS!
this is where you ANGER in justly directed at AND against!! most welfare reciepent (s) WANT WORK !!!!
and a livable wage that goes along with employment working etc.......... lets keep our TRANSIT WORKERS WORKING !!!
look folks i have experence in being on welfare ! and i needed it or i would be in he streets!!!
I have experience with welfare also. I was an eligibility caseworker that handled applications for it every day for 12 years - 2 in NY and 10 in FL. It becomes generational. Most are not like you who just used it until you could get back on your feet again. You are one of the success stories. Most are lazy losers that use their check as a crutch because they don't want to work. When their kids grow up, they become the second generation. After all, mom did it. why shouldn't I? Right? The government is not doing anyone a favor by giving them welfare. It is just a method of keeping minorities downtrodden and dependent on the government. In NY, I remember reviewing a case in 1979 that was originally opened in 1943. Third generation welfare at its worst. Don't advocate welfare, Willie. All it does is keep your Black brothers and sisters down. I know what I'm taliking about. Most of the recipients are Black and Hispanic.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
i will not call myself a success story mr nyc transit- bmt lines !!! not at all !! i know from experence here in
LOST ANGELES how workfare reciepents _ ( forced workfare ) welfare reciepents and homeless shelter resident (s) etc
FORCED to do hard labor including the disabled and dangerous jobs construction and sanatary conditions
aids infected equipment and instruments with no gloves safety masks tools and proper safety equipment..
or be FORCED OF THIER BENIFITS ETC.. thats why i belong to ACCORN and other groups....
NOW BACK ON TOIPIC how reciepents of social programs and homeless shelter resident (s)
BEING USED TO FIRE LAY OFF AND LOCK OUT UNION WAGE PAID TRANSIT WORKERS...
example .......... cleaning buses washing bus and transit cars etc........
some of what i am trying to say here is not at the expense of TRANSIT WORKERS BEING DISPLACED!!
there are many persons who are- not at fault because they can not make it on thier own !!!
not everybody is healthy strong able healthy able bodied employable ....... etc...........
and i not so well off there either !!! thats why i know from experence !!!!!1
Where did you go to school? In all seriousness, you should see a lawyer. If you graduated from high school, you have the potential for a tremendous negligence or malpractice lawsuit against the School that allowed you to graduate, the teachers, the staff and Board of Education. I suggest that you can use your postings on Subtalk as evidence to prove your case.
Is Ron Kuby in the house?
steve.............. grow up little boy !!!!!
Ron Kuby may or not be in the house, but Sea Beach Fred is. Why did welfare got on this website in the first place? Welfare reform seems to be working, but there are kinks still to be processed out. As long as there are inequities in the system, reform must be continued. While third generation welfare recipients are a drag and a disgrace to society, there ARE people in a bad way that cannot work and should be given all the aid necessary until they are on their feet. As long as the majority of recipients are needy, I see nothing wrong with welfare as a temporary expedient. But guys, can be dispense with the personal attacks. On this website we can disagree, but I consider all of you my brothers and comrades in arms, so let's show some respect for each other.
[Ron Kuby may or not be in the house, but Sea Beach Fred is. Why did welfare got on this website in the first place? Welfare reform seems to be working, but there are kinks still to be processed out. As long as there are inequities in the system, reform must be continued. While third generation welfare recipients are a drag and a disgrace to society, there ARE people in a bad way that cannot work and should be given all the aid necessary until they are on their feet. As long as the majority of recipients are needy, I see nothing wrong with welfare as a temporary expedient.]
Seems to me we should trash welfare, and simply offer people last resort jobs that would effectively set a minimum wage. Those who didn't want to work or wanted to do drugs could fend for themselves, and those were genuinely sick or disabled would receive not welfare but Federal disabilty insurance.
question mr josh hill......... could you live on minimum wage ?????
also what do you think about welfare reciepents being used to break up unions fire lay and lock
union paid RAIL and other transit workers replacing and DISPLACING them with "" welfare reciepents "
maybe your next post will answer that !!! also would you DO AWAY WITH FOOD STAMPS ??
and what would you replace them with .............. and how do you handle those who are disabled but are
only allowed to recieve welfare and food stamps when the should be on federal disability but have been
wrongfully denied ther S.S.I disability benifits ??? while they wait from one wrongful denial to another
you would cut them all off "" TRASH THEM " as you said??? welfare cut off DEFORM is not working...
and all welfare reciepents are not a DRAG or DISGRACE to society as you have misinformed !!!!
any way how many disabled welfare reciepents do you know ??? one ?? two ??? NONE !!!!!!
Where is welfare cut-off DEFORM working ?? for the very young able bodied with no crimminal backgrounds
and execellent schooling and training mostly white upper middle class folks right mr josh hill??
in conclusion; there sems to be no concern how FORCED WORKFARE is used as a "Wedge" to drive down
wages fire and lay off union paid RAIL and other transit workers and others as well !! no concern from any of you !!! ???
[Question mr josh hill......... could you live on minimum wage ?????
also what do you think about welfare reciepents being used to break up unions fire lay and lock
union paid RAIL and other transit workers replacing and DISPLACING them with "" welfare reciepents "
maybe your next post will answer that !!! also would you DO AWAY WITH FOOD STAMPS ??
and what would you replace them with .............. and how do you handle those who are disabled but are
only allowed to recieve welfare and food stamps when the should be on federal disability but have been
wrongfully denied ther S.S.I disability benifits ??? while they wait from one wrongful denial to another
you would cut them all off "" TRASH THEM " as you said??? welfare cut off DEFORM is not working...
and all welfare reciepents are not a DRAG or DISGRACE to society as you have misinformed !!!!
any way how many disabled welfare reciepents do you know ??? one ?? two ??? NONE !!!!!!
Where is welfare cut-off DEFORM working ?? for the very young able bodied with no crimminal backgrounds
and execellent schooling and training mostly white upper middle class folks right mr josh hill??
in conclusion; there sems to be no concern how FORCED WORKFARE is used as a "Wedge" to drive down
wages fire and lay off union paid RAIL and other transit workers and others as well !! no concern from any of you !!! ???]
These are a lot of questions, so I won't answer them invidually. But I've made it clear that I don't believe in either welfare or workfare--I believe in giving people real jobs. And as I said, people who are genuinely handicapped should receive generous disability benefits.
As to whether people can live on minimum wage, that's questionable. Certainly not in NYC, but then, why should poor people live in the most expensive area in the continental US? Most middle class people can't afford to live here. Well, since you ask, I also happen to believe in income redistribution, but not through demeaning, inefficient, wrong-lesson programs like food stamps and public housing. Figure out what people need, and institute some kind of negative income tax. But don't subsidize people for having extra kids. Don't give addicts money to buy crack, or for anything else. Talk about perverse incentives!
Finally, unions. I'd ask the opposite question: would you rather see 1 out of 5 people employed in a union, or 3 out of 5 people employed in market rate jobs? Would you rather have two people working in a job that one person could handle, or two people working in two jobs?
It's no secret that the income of the average subway worker is higher than the income of the average subway rider. It seems to me that the municipal unions have created two classes of workers here--those who have no work, and those who do less work than they should. And because unions make the local economy uncompetitive, economic activity goes to different areas of the country, leaving fewer and fewer high paying union jobs in the northeast, while more people make more money in the non-unionized sunbelt.
"foregin aid and the weapons industries waste more money!!! and the money that government wasts on ..... CORPORATE WELFARE !!!"
Foreign aid and defense spending helps keep our country strong and safe. We all benefit from that. Rich and poor alike. Corporations provide jobs. The government should help them contimue to do so. Anyway corporate welfare is a misnomer. Welfare is money going to people who give nothing in return.
Anyway, I hear you're an excellent photographer. What else besides the #7 line have you captured. I don't suppose you have any pre-renovation Franklin Shuttle stuff?
Alan Glick
the weapons industries that hides with the name ( defense spending ) does not make anybody safe including
the u.s.a. america.... corporations send jobs overseas and south of the border !!
i didnt just shoot the number # 7 line and welfare reciepents give every thing back in return !!!!
i have been on welfare before ( general assistance) none of your business if i am a reciepent now!!
mr alan glick star wars the B -1 bomber and CORPORATE welfare they are the ones not giving back !!
the wastes alone could have built rail transit in every american city coast to coast !!!
even president eisenhower warned of your military industrial complex ....... !!!!!!!!
CORPORATE WELFARE is not a misomer !! not the poor food stamp reciepent !!! or forced workfare worker!!
i giving away FREE a chicago cta audio tape !! how about that for a welfare reciepent ???
finally what the CIA has done here at so calloed home !! brought drugs into the inner cities mr alan glick!!
now thats who hasnt "" given back nothing" !!!!!!! workfare reciepents give back TENFOLD !!!!!!!!
Let me just respond to one statement. That is the often repeated canard about Eisenhower warning about the military industrial complex. His actual statement was a bit more detailed than this out of context oft-repeated snippet. What he said in full was (if I may be allowed to paraphrase),--America has a military industrial complex, America needs its military industrial complex, America's military industrial complex does not now have an undue influence in the corriders of power. Let's keep it that way. Let us beware of the possiblility of the military industrial complex gaining such undue influence in the future.-- I think one of the final sentences of this statement read something like --beware the military industrial complex gaining undue influence in the corriders of power--When this sentence is read in the full context of the speech, it becomes apparent that he was not saying what those who oppose defense spending would like us to believe he said.
Alan Glick
but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? martin luther king was right ...
SOCIALSIM FOR THE RICH and like you said RUGGED TOUGH CAPITALISM FOR THE POOR !!
welfare reciepents WORK FOR HIER FOOD STAMPS ETC....
and then they are used to displace union wage paid transit employees there is where your anger should
go !! anbd dont tell me the WAR DEPARTMENT and WEAPONS industries dont waste billions
of your and mine ......... money and irs forced taxes !! now the cencus is coming up this april fools day
with the insane lie that the SENSELESS cencus 2000 does not sahre information with other government agencies ?
do you MR ALAN GLICK believe that nonsense ?? i dont and I AM not participating in the cencus senseless 2000!!
"but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? "
Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.
Alan
Well said Alan! You have my complete support in this matter. I believe if people are knowledgeable on their history, they would agree with you. Israelis are winners and deserve our admiration.
not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????
Sheesh, you sound like another person I know, also Frothy Mouthed and Rabid, name is Karl Makope, are you sure you're not him? he lives in Toronto, Ontario, goes to school in London, Ontario...and just as goofy as you.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Go Willie, Go Willie, Go Willie, Go!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
There was a song back in 1964 called the Little Old Lady From Pasadena. I sort of modified it just a bit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was born in NEW YORK N. Y. ( my family is from there too ) !!! AND PROUD OF IT MAN ! !
it is wrong to fire union paid transit workers and replace them with welfare FORCED WORKFARE
reciepents displacing transit workers and putting them on the welfare unemployment rolls !!!!!!!!!!
should union paid transit workers be replaced by WORKFARE welfare workers ?? and why ???
[not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????]
Sorry, but there's an oversupply of unskilled workers. Unless you want to move to socialism, or protect the workers in industrial countries from third world competition, you're going to have to face the fact that unions are on the way out.
[Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.]
Right on.
Mr Willie: You stepped over the line when you made that disparaging remark about Israel. That country to me is a model of how a brave and courageous people could create a garden from chaos and penniless refugees. No, I am not a Jew, but I am a strong advocate and supporter of Israel and I admire that country deeply. If you are aware of European history, you know that Jewish people suffered terribly for no other reason than being Jews. Many went to Israel and helped put their lives back together and in 50 years have transformed that land into a symbol of thriving democratic state. So while we can agree on the need for some sort of welfare for those in need, using Israel as a punching bag is uncalled for and cannot be allowed to go unanswered.
wrong !! i said that foregin aid not just to israel & egypt or any one else to many of us thats CORPORATE WELFARE
the money belongs here with U.S.A. born persons !!! sorry sir if i did not make that clear !!
it's not CORPORATE WELFARE when it goes to israel, egypt other countires because those arent corporations !!
the weapons industries that hides with the name ( defense spending ) does not make anybody safe including
the u.s.a. america.... corporations send jobs overseas and south of the border !!
i didnt just shoot the number # 7 line and welfare reciepents give every thing back in return !!!!
i have been on welfare before ( general assistance) none of your business if i am a reciepent now!!
mr alan glick star wars the B -1 bomber and CORPORATE welfare they are the ones not giving back !!
the wastes alone could have built rail transit in every american city coast to coast !!!
even president eisenhower warned of your military industrial complex ....... !!!!!!!!
CORPORATE WELFARE is not a misomer !! not the poor food stamp reciepent !!! or forced workfare worker!!
i giving away FREE a chicago cta audio tape !! how about that for a welfare reciepent ???
finally what the CIA has done here at so calloed home !! brought drugs into the inner cities mr alan glick!!
now thats who hasnt "" given back nothing" !!!!!!! workfare reciepents give back TENFOLD !!!!!!!!
Let me just respond to one statement. That is the often repeated canard about Eisenhower warning about the military industrial complex. His actual statement was a bit more detailed than this out of context oft-repeated snippet. What he said in full was (if I may be allowed to paraphrase),--America has a military industrial complex, America needs its military industrial complex, America's military industrial complex does not now have an undue influence in the corriders of power. Let's keep it that way. Let us beware of the possiblility of the military industrial complex gaining such undue influence in the future.-- I think one of the final sentences of this statement read something like --beware the military industrial complex gaining undue influence in the corriders of power--When this sentence is read in the full context of the speech, it becomes apparent that he was not saying what those who oppose defense spending would like us to believe he said.
Alan Glick
but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? martin luther king was right ...
SOCIALSIM FOR THE RICH and like you said RUGGED TOUGH CAPITALISM FOR THE POOR !!
welfare reciepents WORK FOR HIER FOOD STAMPS ETC....
and then they are used to displace union wage paid transit employees there is where your anger should
go !! anbd dont tell me the WAR DEPARTMENT and WEAPONS industries dont waste billions
of your and mine ......... money and irs forced taxes !! now the cencus is coming up this april fools day
with the insane lie that the SENSELESS cencus 2000 does not sahre information with other government agencies ?
do you MR ALAN GLICK believe that nonsense ?? i dont and I AM not participating in the cencus senseless 2000!!
"but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? "
Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.
Alan
Well said Alan! You have my complete support in this matter. I believe if people are knowledgeable on their history, they would agree with you. Israelis are winners and deserve our admiration.
not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????
Sheesh, you sound like another person I know, also Frothy Mouthed and Rabid, name is Karl Makope, are you sure you're not him? he lives in Toronto, Ontario, goes to school in London, Ontario...and just as goofy as you.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Go Willie, Go Willie, Go Willie, Go!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
There was a song back in 1964 called the Little Old Lady From Pasadena. I sort of modified it just a bit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was born in NEW YORK N. Y. ( my family is from there too ) !!! AND PROUD OF IT MAN ! !
it is wrong to fire union paid transit workers and replace them with welfare FORCED WORKFARE
reciepents displacing transit workers and putting them on the welfare unemployment rolls !!!!!!!!!!
should union paid transit workers be replaced by WORKFARE welfare workers ?? and why ???
[not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????]
Sorry, but there's an oversupply of unskilled workers. Unless you want to move to socialism, or protect the workers in industrial countries from third world competition, you're going to have to face the fact that unions are on the way out.
[Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.]
Right on.
Mr Willie: You stepped over the line when you made that disparaging remark about Israel. That country to me is a model of how a brave and courageous people could create a garden from chaos and penniless refugees. No, I am not a Jew, but I am a strong advocate and supporter of Israel and I admire that country deeply. If you are aware of European history, you know that Jewish people suffered terribly for no other reason than being Jews. Many went to Israel and helped put their lives back together and in 50 years have transformed that land into a symbol of thriving democratic state. So while we can agree on the need for some sort of welfare for those in need, using Israel as a punching bag is uncalled for and cannot be allowed to go unanswered.
wrong !! i said that foregin aid not just to israel & egypt or any one else to many of us thats CORPORATE WELFARE
the money belongs here with U.S.A. born persons !!! sorry sir if i did not make that clear !!
it's not CORPORATE WELFARE when it goes to israel, egypt other countires because those arent corporations !!
the weapons industries that hides with the name ( defense spending ) does not make anybody safe including
the u.s.a. america.... corporations send jobs overseas and south of the border !!
i didnt just shoot the number # 7 line and welfare reciepents give every thing back in return !!!!
i have been on welfare before ( general assistance) none of your business if i am a reciepent now!!
mr alan glick star wars the B -1 bomber and CORPORATE welfare they are the ones not giving back !!
the wastes alone could have built rail transit in every american city coast to coast !!!
even president eisenhower warned of your military industrial complex ....... !!!!!!!!
CORPORATE WELFARE is not a misomer !! not the poor food stamp reciepent !!! or forced workfare worker!!
i giving away FREE a chicago cta audio tape !! how about that for a welfare reciepent ???
finally what the CIA has done here at so calloed home !! brought drugs into the inner cities mr alan glick!!
now thats who hasnt "" given back nothing" !!!!!!! workfare reciepents give back TENFOLD !!!!!!!!
Let me just respond to one statement. That is the often repeated canard about Eisenhower warning about the military industrial complex. His actual statement was a bit more detailed than this out of context oft-repeated snippet. What he said in full was (if I may be allowed to paraphrase),--America has a military industrial complex, America needs its military industrial complex, America's military industrial complex does not now have an undue influence in the corriders of power. Let's keep it that way. Let us beware of the possiblility of the military industrial complex gaining such undue influence in the future.-- I think one of the final sentences of this statement read something like --beware the military industrial complex gaining undue influence in the corriders of power--When this sentence is read in the full context of the speech, it becomes apparent that he was not saying what those who oppose defense spending would like us to believe he said.
Alan Glick
but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? martin luther king was right ...
SOCIALSIM FOR THE RICH and like you said RUGGED TOUGH CAPITALISM FOR THE POOR !!
welfare reciepents WORK FOR HIER FOOD STAMPS ETC....
and then they are used to displace union wage paid transit employees there is where your anger should
go !! anbd dont tell me the WAR DEPARTMENT and WEAPONS industries dont waste billions
of your and mine ......... money and irs forced taxes !! now the cencus is coming up this april fools day
with the insane lie that the SENSELESS cencus 2000 does not sahre information with other government agencies ?
do you MR ALAN GLICK believe that nonsense ?? i dont and I AM not participating in the cencus senseless 2000!!
"but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? "
Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.
Alan
Well said Alan! You have my complete support in this matter. I believe if people are knowledgeable on their history, they would agree with you. Israelis are winners and deserve our admiration.
not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????
Sheesh, you sound like another person I know, also Frothy Mouthed and Rabid, name is Karl Makope, are you sure you're not him? he lives in Toronto, Ontario, goes to school in London, Ontario...and just as goofy as you.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Go Willie, Go Willie, Go Willie, Go!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
There was a song back in 1964 called the Little Old Lady From Pasadena. I sort of modified it just a bit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was born in NEW YORK N. Y. ( my family is from there too ) !!! AND PROUD OF IT MAN ! !
it is wrong to fire union paid transit workers and replace them with welfare FORCED WORKFARE
reciepents displacing transit workers and putting them on the welfare unemployment rolls !!!!!!!!!!
should union paid transit workers be replaced by WORKFARE welfare workers ?? and why ???
[not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????]
Sorry, but there's an oversupply of unskilled workers. Unless you want to move to socialism, or protect the workers in industrial countries from third world competition, you're going to have to face the fact that unions are on the way out.
[Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.]
Right on.
Mr Willie: You stepped over the line when you made that disparaging remark about Israel. That country to me is a model of how a brave and courageous people could create a garden from chaos and penniless refugees. No, I am not a Jew, but I am a strong advocate and supporter of Israel and I admire that country deeply. If you are aware of European history, you know that Jewish people suffered terribly for no other reason than being Jews. Many went to Israel and helped put their lives back together and in 50 years have transformed that land into a symbol of thriving democratic state. So while we can agree on the need for some sort of welfare for those in need, using Israel as a punching bag is uncalled for and cannot be allowed to go unanswered.
wrong !! i said that foregin aid not just to israel & egypt or any one else to many of us thats CORPORATE WELFARE
the money belongs here with U.S.A. born persons !!! sorry sir if i did not make that clear !!
it's not CORPORATE WELFARE when it goes to israel, egypt other countires because those arent corporations !!
the weapons industries that hides with the name ( defense spending ) does not make anybody safe including
the u.s.a. america.... corporations send jobs overseas and south of the border !!
i didnt just shoot the number # 7 line and welfare reciepents give every thing back in return !!!!
i have been on welfare before ( general assistance) none of your business if i am a reciepent now!!
mr alan glick star wars the B -1 bomber and CORPORATE welfare they are the ones not giving back !!
the wastes alone could have built rail transit in every american city coast to coast !!!
even president eisenhower warned of your military industrial complex ....... !!!!!!!!
CORPORATE WELFARE is not a misomer !! not the poor food stamp reciepent !!! or forced workfare worker!!
i giving away FREE a chicago cta audio tape !! how about that for a welfare reciepent ???
finally what the CIA has done here at so calloed home !! brought drugs into the inner cities mr alan glick!!
now thats who hasnt "" given back nothing" !!!!!!! workfare reciepents give back TENFOLD !!!!!!!!
Let me just respond to one statement. That is the often repeated canard about Eisenhower warning about the military industrial complex. His actual statement was a bit more detailed than this out of context oft-repeated snippet. What he said in full was (if I may be allowed to paraphrase),--America has a military industrial complex, America needs its military industrial complex, America's military industrial complex does not now have an undue influence in the corriders of power. Let's keep it that way. Let us beware of the possiblility of the military industrial complex gaining such undue influence in the future.-- I think one of the final sentences of this statement read something like --beware the military industrial complex gaining undue influence in the corriders of power--When this sentence is read in the full context of the speech, it becomes apparent that he was not saying what those who oppose defense spending would like us to believe he said.
Alan Glick
but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? martin luther king was right ...
SOCIALSIM FOR THE RICH and like you said RUGGED TOUGH CAPITALISM FOR THE POOR !!
welfare reciepents WORK FOR HIER FOOD STAMPS ETC....
and then they are used to displace union wage paid transit employees there is where your anger should
go !! anbd dont tell me the WAR DEPARTMENT and WEAPONS industries dont waste billions
of your and mine ......... money and irs forced taxes !! now the cencus is coming up this april fools day
with the insane lie that the SENSELESS cencus 2000 does not sahre information with other government agencies ?
do you MR ALAN GLICK believe that nonsense ?? i dont and I AM not participating in the cencus senseless 2000!!
"but you see alan glick you still blame all welfare reciepents saying welfare reciepents dont give back anything ??
look ant that WELFARE COLONY the state of israel?? "
Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.
Alan
Well said Alan! You have my complete support in this matter. I believe if people are knowledgeable on their history, they would agree with you. Israelis are winners and deserve our admiration.
not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????
Sheesh, you sound like another person I know, also Frothy Mouthed and Rabid, name is Karl Makope, are you sure you're not him? he lives in Toronto, Ontario, goes to school in London, Ontario...and just as goofy as you.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Salaam W. Allah is from Pasadena.
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Go Willie, Go Willie, Go Willie, Go!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its the Little Old Railfan from Pasadena!
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
Is that supposed to be some kind of pun or reference to something?
There was a song back in 1964 called the Little Old Lady From Pasadena. I sort of modified it just a bit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was born in NEW YORK N. Y. ( my family is from there too ) !!! AND PROUD OF IT MAN ! !
it is wrong to fire union paid transit workers and replace them with welfare FORCED WORKFARE
reciepents displacing transit workers and putting them on the welfare unemployment rolls !!!!!!!!!!
should union paid transit workers be replaced by WORKFARE welfare workers ?? and why ???
[not well said Alan!! and not well aid Sea Beach Fred !! neither one of you are knowelegeable on thier history,
and foregin aid to israel or anybody else is CORPORATE WELFARE and the american people are not the winners !!
instead of throwing union paid transit workers out of work repalcing them with FORCED WORKFARE
welfare -reciepents and the other TRANSIT UNION PAID workers lay them of fire them lock them out first..
you.... ALAN GLICK...... and you SEA BEACH FRED ....... support this disaster ????????
not well said at all by both and any those of you who support this !!!!
why do you not understand that the homeless and welfare reciepents are being used against workers to
keep wages down to sub minimum unaffordable levels ?????]
Sorry, but there's an oversupply of unskilled workers. Unless you want to move to socialism, or protect the workers in industrial countries from third world competition, you're going to have to face the fact that unions are on the way out.
[Actually, of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, Israel pays the most dividends. Soviet MIG technology was given us by Israel. Intelligence reports on the former Soviet Union was gladly shared by Israel. These are only a few of the benefits we gain by having one democracy in that area. Of all the countries we supply with foreign aid, why single out and attack Israel as being particularly unworthy. Israel is a miniscule island in a sea of enemies who wish destruction for its state and genocide for its people. I'd think that you, more than most others, would sympathize with the underdog.]
Right on.
Mr Willie: You stepped over the line when you made that disparaging remark about Israel. That country to me is a model of how a brave and courageous people could create a garden from chaos and penniless refugees. No, I am not a Jew, but I am a strong advocate and supporter of Israel and I admire that country deeply. If you are aware of European history, you know that Jewish people suffered terribly for no other reason than being Jews. Many went to Israel and helped put their lives back together and in 50 years have transformed that land into a symbol of thriving democratic state. So while we can agree on the need for some sort of welfare for those in need, using Israel as a punching bag is uncalled for and cannot be allowed to go unanswered.
wrong !! i said that foregin aid not just to israel & egypt or any one else to many of us thats CORPORATE WELFARE
the money belongs here with U.S.A. born persons !!! sorry sir if i did not make that clear !!
it's not CORPORATE WELFARE when it goes to israel, egypt other countires because those arent corporations !!
[well, a good way to raise money for things is a bond issue, if the money isn't diverted to something else, like with the Second Ave. Subway. Another way is to trim the entitlement programs budget. In most other states, including Florida, the only money that is spent on entitlement programs (btw, I'm talking about welfare) is what the Feds offer. NYS and NYC kick in alot of their own money for these entitlement programs. I was a welfare caseworker in both states. Florida offers the federally-funded AFDC only. Florida doesn't pay for anything additional beyond what the Feds pay for. NY, in addition to kicking in more of their own money for AFDC also pays for Home Relief for those who don't qualify for AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children). Maybe this explains why so many people in NYC are on the public dole. No wonder so many people who don't want to work flock to NYC. If you want to cut something to free up money for other things that are needed, cut welfare. Those who are unable to work due to disability should be taken care of. Able-bodied lazy people who don't want to work should have their benefits cut off. Enough madness. I'll never forget what one recipient said to me when I asked "have you worked in the past 3 months"? She stood up, and proudly said to me with a smile on her face "Sir, I've never worked a day in my life". Enough of this madness. That's where money needed for other things should come from.]
I tend to agree, but it's a difficult issue for me. On one hand, it seems to me that the City and State can't remain competitive with other localities if they spend too much more on social services. On the other hand, I don't think that our government does enough to help the deserving poor (I don't include slackers and junkies in that group, but the working poor, people with disabilities, etc.). So one is left with a choice between callousness and becoming welfare central, an economically uncompetitive region that is attractive only to people who want to live on the dole.
The things that tips the balance for me are that much of the money that goes into our antipoverty programs never gets to the poor in the first place but rather goes to a huge poverty bureaucracy, or goes to the wrong people (i.e., to junkies to buy drugs or be patched up after an overdose rather than schoolchildren to get a good education), and that anti-poverty programs don't lift people out of poverty, while jobs do.
In any case, I think it's time we got over feeling guilty because the rest of the nation doesn't do as much as we might like for the poor. Among other things, if we spent less, some of that would go back to the Federal Government, and that could be spent in other regions; and that if we worked hard to come up with efficient antipoverty measures that actually did some good, we could rescue antipoverty initiatives from a public that's fed up with programs that encourage teen preganancy and public housing projects where people kill one another, and serve as a positive rather than a negative model for the rest of the nation. (The Times Magazine this week has an excellent overview of the sort of program that I think could actually do some good.)
[(Larry Littlefield is in favor of cutting service)
Larry Littlefield is against the idea that once you get a certain amount of public money coming your way, you are entitled to keep getting it whether you need it or not, deserve it or not, and too bad for everyone and everything else.
Every decision to spend money on A is also a decision to not spend money on B. Every NON-DECISION to keep spending money on A is a decision not to spend money on B.
People who are unwilling to look for efficiencies are either:
1) In favor of raising taxes constantly to address every new problem, until the city and state collapse, or:
2) In favor of keeping everyone and everything that is now screwed permanently screwed.
And what is screwed in New York, relative to other places, according to relative tax and spending data? The education of poor children, esp. Black and Latino Children. The maintenance of the physical plant (ie. schools, bridges) Long term improvements to the transportation system. New businesses (without tax breaks).
If you are against finding efficiencies, than you are in FAVOR OF KEEPING THESE OTHER THINGS DISADVANTAGED.]
I agree 100%. But then, I wasn't the one who criticized you on that count--wish you'd watch those quotes.
Let's say for a moment that we really needed to replace these bridges for transit service. Here is what I would recommend.
For the Manhattan Bridge, if you connect the A and B tracks to the Rutgers tunnel, and branch the Nassau St line off into the 6th Avenue express tracks at Grand Street, I believe those connections and a two-track tunnel would replace the bridge. No four track tunnel is required. You could run, say, the B through the Rutgers tunnel with the F, and the D and Q through the new tunnel.
In fact, if you were to convert the LIRR Flatbush Branch to B division service, as some would like, with new signals I'd bet you could run it AND the D/Q through a single two-track tunnel. I'd have the Brighton after Atlantic and the LIRR Flatbush merge into the unused local tracks at Hoyt-Schemerhorn (the C would have to merge with the A a little sooner). The train would stop at Hoyt Schemerhorn, at Court Street, pass through a new tunnel, and then head for the Second Avenue Subway (this is a fantasy, isn't it?) There is your express LIRR to Lower Manhattan access. And the bridge is replaced.
As for the Willie B, if the G was a real subway, you wouldn't need the J/Z/M much at all. So I'd reconfigure Hoyt-Schemerhorn to allow the G to merge into the F tracks TOWARD, NOT AWAY FROM Jay Street, and hook it up to the 63rd Street tunnel. It would run as a loop, sharing the 63rd St tunnel and Rutgers tunnels with other lines. With that, and more trains on the A/C and L, plus the new Atlantic Avenue subway, most people could walk to a direct train. The J/M/Z could be converted to light rail for those that want to transfer rather than walk.
If you don't replace the 4-track bridge with a 4-track tunnel, it would be like putting a bandaid on the problem. If you're going to do this thing, lets do it right. Rutgers is just a temporary soultion to a major problem. Just because 2 of the 4 Manny B. tracks have been out of commission for many years doesn't mean that they can be done away with. What about Broadway service? What about getting the N back on its old route? I'll bet running the N through the Montague St. Tunnel, and all the way through Lower Manhattan adds a considerable amount of time to a Midtown commute for someone living near the Sea Beach. Proposing a 2-track tunnel is just another way of permanently cutting service. So is cutting Broadway-Brooklyn servkice to light rail. Why is it that you are hell-bent on cutting service and eliminating rapid transit lines? As for the G, there must be an easy way to route the G to go into Manhattan either via Rutgers or Cranberry. The route that its been on since its inception in the 1930's has been asinine. If you can't run the G into Manhattan, its worthless. Most G riders have to switch for something else to get to Manhattan. I think a good route for the G would be from Continental Ave. to Continental Ave., down the Crosstown Line, into Manhattan, up 6th Ave. through the 63rd St. Tunnel and back out to Contintntal Ave. Court St. cannot and should not be considered for regular service again. The Transit Museum should not be messed with. Besides, from what I heard (unless I heard wrong), isn't the Museum now private property? I heard that Court St. is no longer owned by the TA. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. What I got was hearsay. But, even if the Museum is still TA property, they would be foolish to dismantle it so they could use the station for regular service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Court Street is still owned by the TA. Much as I like the Transit Museum, however, if at some point in time a decision is made to reestablish service through there as part of a new line I would have to support it. The Museum can be placed elsewhere. As railfans we must remember that the purpose of the subway is the transport of passengers, not to be our playground, and the needs of the citizens must come first.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think there can be thru service through Court St.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was a terminal stop.
Right now, that's true. This is a "what if" scenario - "what if" they decided to continue the line through a tunnel to Manhattan, like originally planned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was an idea to build a link from the DeKalb Avenue Station to
the Rutgers Street F Line Tunnel. It will be approx 1/2 mile long to build. The TA was thinking of rerouting some Sixth Avenue service through this proposed route instead of sending it over the Manhattan Bridge. I believe nothing has been done about this
There was an idea to build a link from the DeKalb Avenue Station to
the Rutgers Street F Line Tunnel. It will be approx 1/2 mile long to build. The TA was thinking of rerouting some Sixth Avenue service through this proposed route instead of sending it over the Manhattan Bridge. I believe nothing has been done about this
Yeah. I know. The proposed Rutgers/DeKalb connection was a very hot topic and a very busy thread on SubTalk a couple of months ago. Don't look for it to be built unless the Manny B. collapses first.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Any new bridge that might be built as part of the Interstate highway program would have to be free.
When did that change? There are quite a number of bridges, and Interstates, that have tolls on them, and not all of the roads or bridges predated the interstate system.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right. I can think of the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge (I-84) maintained by the NY State Bridge Authority.
--Mark
And the I-80 bridge between NJ and PA, the Delaware Memorial Bridge on I-95, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge on I 80, and there is one further East in the Bay Area near Vallerio also on I 80. That are toll
But The Bay Bridge predates the system.
As a practical matter, building a bridge in the semi-rural environment of Tarrytown and South Nyack is a lot easier than building one in a congested urban area like lower Manhattan. Unless the old bridge is torn down first and the new one built in the exact same spot, there would be major displacement of businesses and homes. It's hard to see how it could physically be done. And imagine the outcry from the Jehovah's Witnesses if their "Watchtower" building had to be demolished for the project.
[And imagine the outcry from the Jehovah's Witnesses if their
"Watchtower" building had to be demolished for the project.]
Between being a religious organization PLUS having the financial clout that they have, I'm sure the Jehovah's Witnesses could get the city to build them a new "Watchtower" at a new location.
Doug aka BMTman
So, they discussed the bridge situation last evening and it made newsradio today. New bridge? Train tracks on it? I like that part. Tear down the old bridge? Hate to see it go.
No one is saying, but for sure, many of us will never see the results.
If they tear down the old bridge, perhaps it could go to a museum. Or be used as a substitute for the decaying Manhattan bridge. Or better yet, it could be used to take people from South Ferry to Governor's Island.
Who are these nice men standing behind me? And why are they putting that tight jacket around me?
Joe C
Anyone know why #3 trains are being stored on layup tracks on the southbound tracks betwen 137th and 145th
Ithink it's because they are rebuilding the portion betweeen Utica Avenue and New Lots Avenue. I guess they don't want to store so many trains at Liviona because service in the portion will be limited.
Actually, there's not much room in Livonia for more lay-ups. Most of the cars are probably excess because they run a 20 minute headways between 10am and 3pm on the 3 on weekdays because of the construction.
I am intoducing myself to sub and bus talk. The Morris Ave Maven has been following the system sine he was 7 years old, although i am not as knowledgable as some of you i do share similar intrests in the system.i look forward to sharing info in the future. p.s deshwan you're a bumm
Would that be Morris Ave in the Bronx?
Joe C
Yes the morris ave on the concourse side not the third ave side. you know morris ave cuts under 175th and ends up on the third ave side
A word of advice:
Your comments will get more intelligent responses if you are careful with your wording, capitals and punctuation. If your posts appear intelligent, the more intelligent people on the site will respond to you and you will learn some interesting stuff about transit.
Please don't consider this a flame, just worthwhile advice. MOST people on this site don't criticize, but they will ignore poorly written posts.
Welcome Aboard!
Gerry from Boston
Yes. I lived, many moons ago a block up from Morris, on Courtlandt, when it was safe to do so.
Enjoy the board.
Joe C
Welcome to SubTalk. Feel free to contribute and ask questions.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well .... lets qualify that ...
First do some surfing of the site and view sections devoted to FAQ (frequently asked questions) and all the wonderful photos that many folks have contributed ... then start asking questions.
This site is great learing place. The story I like to tell is:
One of the early threads I saw was about Lo-Vs & Hi-Vs. I didn't have a clue what they were talking about, so I skipped over those posts, then a few months later I joined the Shoreline Museum at Branford. Part of the incentive was that you got one subway driving lession. So there I was pulling the handles on the Lo-V/Hi-V lash up.
So, welcome & look forward to a lot of pleasurable time here.
Mr t__:^)
Welcome!!! I'm also a Bronx native. I lived on Selwyn Ave (Bet E. 172nd Street and Mt Eden Avenue) during my high school years and I could see Morris Ave from my bedroom window. There's lots of knowledge to be gained here. Hope you enjoy the ride.
Wayne
I have a question, will the Transit Authority test all 1,080 trains or so the same way, as they are now testing the 20 cars in the East 180th street repair shop?
after recieving delivery all cars are inspected and tested by car equipment before being released for revenue passenger service.
I doubt it only for purposes of Car Equipment. The 2 cars still at 207 Street Yard are being photographed by CED for the purposes of training manuals and I would assume that through the next few months, the first delivered cars will be modified and will be retested after the mods. That is unless common sense overwhelms the brass at the TA in which they scrap the order in exchange for 1400 R-62Bs with the same propulsion and braking packages as it's predicessors. All cars will have to be road tested with the scrap wheels under load, acceleration and service and emergency braking modes. There will be plenty of mods to trucks, body, doors and even the new 180 Street barn. This will be another R46 fiasco. There is not many of the Tier One personel who were around when the P-Wire cars were delivered. It was a joke to train personel on the new electronics and I feel that when the first train gets taken out of service, the train will sit in the barn until Kawasaki or BOMBadier techs can get there to tell the TA, this was your engineering design, not ours!
Ok people, a simple question was asked from a fellow subtalker about R-142 testing, and replies insist on going off-topic into "train bashing." I know many of you have problems with the R-68's, but give the R-142 a fighting chance at least!!! -Nick
I agree. The R142s don't necessarily have to be bad, even though some folks here are giving them frowns. The R110A/B had been in continuous testing since 1992, so don't you think that may be the TA has all the bugs worked out by now? I would like to think that they should have learned their lesson from the R46 fiasco. 7 Years of testing equipment should give them positive results.
As I recall, the R62A wasn't all that great in the beginning and then improvements were implemented. Look at them now! This fleet has one of the best MDBFs out there!!!
I suppose that in the end, 1904 technology has always proven to work comparing to the technology of the future. The technology must be proven to work before it is accepted by all. I'll give it a chance and say that the cars will be a success regardless of how anyone feels here. The reality of the matter is that the older fleet won't run forever, and the new cars have to be a must win situation. Only time will tell as to whether or not the cars are a true success.
-Stef
I suppose that in the end, 1904 technology has always proven to work comparing to the technology of the future. The technology must be proven to work before it is accepted by all. I'll give it a chance and say that the cars will be a success regardless of how anyone feels here. The reality of the matter is that the older fleet won't run forever, and the new cars have to be a must win situation. Only time will tell as to whether or not the cars are a true success.
I'm willing to give the R-142's a chance. If you recall my post regarding the NY Times article about them, I said they are very impressive. I'm a nostalgia freak. By nature, I'll take the old over the new, hands down every time, but I also know that nothing is going to run forever. Both the R-62's and the R-142's are 3rd generation IRT cars. The 1st generation was the Hi-V's and Lo-V's. The 2nd generation was the R-12's through R-36's. The R-142 is an extremely complicated computerized high-tech car. Much can go wrong until the bugs are taken out. The same holds true for any new model of automobile. The worst thing you can buy is the first production run of a totally new model automobile. The R-142's are in their first production run. I'm sure that once the bugs are dealt with, they will probably be fine. If trends hold up as they have been, 35 years from now, railfans will be in mourning over the R-Whatever replacing the R-142's. I'm sure the same thing went on when the Redbirds replaced the Hi and Lo-V's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thats the main reason why I try to ride the old '55 MU cars on the LIRR diesel lines as much as I can. Everyone on this forum seems to hate them but I'm sure they'll miss them when they're gone for good. I was never a big fan of them when they were still electric cars. I'd rather ride the pre-war cars anytime in those days. (Except for the double-deckers) But now they're the most nostalgic cars the LIRR has and the locomotives are great too. Not like the spaceship looking bi-level locos with the loud jet engine sound!!! I'm just not going to make the same mistake I made with the R1-9's, thinking they will last forever!!!
I'm just not going to make the same mistake I made with the R1-9's, thinking they will last forever!!!
Nothing lasts forever. I learned that when I saw my first car replacement, which was R-27's replacing Standards. I was only 6, but I was able to understand that something new was replacing somethiung old. Back then I loved the idea of new modern cars replacing the antiquated stuff. It wasn't until I was 14 that I began to appreciate the old and shun the new. By then, my preference was for the R-1/9, not the Slant R-40. The previous year, I would have taken the new R-38's over the R-1/9's. The Standards were gone before I even realized it, but I still had the R-1/9's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
DONT EVEN TRY IT !!! you know the R 1 - R -9s lasted a long time and will outlast the 142s three times over !!!
They would have lasted even longer had they been properly cared for during their later years. The R-1/9s fell victim to the new-cars-are-on-the-way attitude and were allowed to fall apart.
NYCTRANSIT, I agree with you. It takes time for anything new to be accepted. Given time the R142's could be the pride of the IRT lines.
I however,I wish they would assign some to the Flushing Line.
If MTA cannot do this they should re-overhaul inside/out the existing Redbirds on the #7 line (paint them back to their orginal WF colors. I miss those colors)This is just my own fantasy.
i will agree with you on the original WF 33-36 colors ......... light blue right????
HOWEVER ..... the 142s will last ONLY TEN YEARS..... then they will not even be good ... JUNK!!....
( they just wont last !!! )
HOWEVER ..... the 142s will last ONLY TEN YEARS..... then they will not even be good ... JUNK!!....
( they just wont last !!! )
Not bad, only one person flawing my point. For the majority, while some may question how the R142 does, many subtalkers agree to at least give them a chance :) -Nick
compare the new cars to the r 1 thru 30 even the R -26 !!! YOUR 142 will last one half as long ??
dont think so !!!
Interesting question.
The Generation 1 cars generally lasted 50+ years in service, despite abuse.
The Generation 2 cars generally lasted 30+ years in service - with much abuse.
By this measure, the Generation 3 cars may last for 10-15 years of service.
Old industrial maxim: The more complicate a piece of machinery, the more likely it will fail.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES !!!!!!!!!!! thats what i am saying !!! the old r - 1 r-9s 10-38s and bmt b d 's etc...........
WERE BUILT SIMPLE COMMON SENSE RULED not complicated..... AND STRONG
THE R 1 100 pre world war two LASTED ALL THE WAY TO THE 1980s !!!!!
now you could replace the old cars with brand new exact copies of the old !!!!!!!
No! The R-1/9 series lasted even less than the R-26 is in service now. Many didn't even make it to 40.
No prewar cars lasted until the 80s.
You are one who should talk about common sense.
Not quite. The last IND oldtimers left the scene on March 31, 1977. They weer the last prewar units to be withdrawn. Only the R-6s and possibly the R-7s actually lasted 40 years. While the R-1/9s were around for almost 45 years as a fleet, on the average, any given car in that series lasted 37 years.
Not quite. The last IND oldtimers left the scene on March 31, 1977. They weer the last prewar units to be withdrawn. Only the R-6s and possibly the R-7s actually lasted 40 years. While the R-1/9s were around for almost 45 years as a fleet, on the average, any given car in that series lasted 37 years.
That's right. They were built between 1930 and 1940. A similar scenario was the Standards, which were also built over a 10-year period from 1914-1924.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The BMT standards lasted for 54 years as a fleet. On an individual basis, any given car averaged about 47 years in service, and very few of them lasted 50 years.
In contrast, virtually all of the Gibbs Hi-Vs put in 50+ years of service.
If MTA cannot do this they should re-overhaul inside/out the existing Redbirds on the #7 line (paint them back to their orginal WF colors. I miss those colors)This is just my own fantasy.
I would like to see the R-36's back in their blue and white paint scheme also. I was always fond of the R-36 colors. As for the R-142's, maybe once the new cars have been tried and tested, once there won't be any more glitches with them, maybe we will see them on the 7. Other SubTalkers mentioned in the past that the TA wants the more reliable R-62's on the 7. As for the R-142's, i guess my biggest problem with them is the full-width cabs. If you're not going to have a railfan window on subway cars, you might as well just put a locomotive in the front.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
i was told by transit employees at times square the number seven # 7 WILL HAVE THE REDBIRDS LAST!!!!
This is impossible
This would mean the R-33 singles would continue to discomfort summer passengers.
Thank You! Someone gets the point here. Perhaps you should change your handle to the "Voice of Reason".
As I was saying, the reality of the matter is that the old cars won't last forever. Depending on how we want to look at it, it is a sign of modernization. Modernization doesn't have to be such a bad thing. Who would imagine that a subway car would become handicap accessible? Now if all stations were all built to be ADA compliant, I'd think we'd be ok! The old theory of out with the old and in with the new is kicking in. I too am going to miss the old veterans. I've essentially grown up with them, so it seems a part of my life will pass before my eyes. There's no reason to fear, my friend. Cherished memories won't be lost. Don't be surprised if you hear that a few old cars do escape the scrap line and wind up in one of the Railway Museums.
-Stef
01/14/2000
In the January installment of "Transit Transit" Joe Hofman tells the reporter that the 142's should last 70 maybe 80 years because of stainless steel construction. I don't think so, there is such a thing as metal fatigue. The stainless steel part may last, check out SEPTA's retired MFSL cars. But what about the frame and chassis ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill--- forgive me. Joe Hofman's words about the cars lasting 70 years, just reminded me of a Jackie Mason joke. Jackie Mason said: I have enough money to last a lifetime--unless I want to buy something--in which case I got nothing. Joe Hofman didn't say: The cars will last 70 years, unless we put them in service, in which case ....??
I'm not really bashing the R142's. I'm sure they'll do the job.
You're right. Metal fatigue exists no matter whether or not the car's stainless steel or painted carbon steel like what is found on the Redbirds.
The frame and chassis? That should be the strongest part of the car. I don't see what could happen here unless there's a structural flaw.
-Stef
It's intereseting to note that the wooden Q types lasted 66 years with essentialy the same superstructure and the (mild steel) North Broad cars in Phila lasted 55. The MBTA PCC cars on the Mattapan Line should last 70 years (if they get the 15 years out of their current rebuilding that they want). All they're doing is welding in new steel to replace rust (mostly due to the years they spent in the street with salt in the winter).
I dont think stainless vs. mild steel is the issue, since carbon composites will probably replace steel as the primary structural component in the future (NABI already builds a bus this way). Other alloys will come on the scene as well. Sure, stainless lasts longer, but it isn't the carbuilding panacea.
I think the issues are the overall strength of the superstructure (fatigue resistance) and functional obsolescence. The R1s were built about 70 years ago; we've come a long way since then. If technology continues at this pace the R142s wont be worth keeping until age 70 due to power consumption and such.
Au contraire, if the body/frame is no longer sound no new hardware is worth attaching--conversely mainline railroads have in recent years remanufactured older EMD units to better than new by applying newer su-assemblies to a sound frame. The sad reality in NYC Transit procurement has been the lurching toward some modernization while trying to maintain some compatability while being the victim of both flaky vendors and shifting Fed rules governing procurments with Fed $$. Although certainly not perfect, CTA has in some respects had a more consistent equipment spec allowing new/old cars to interoperate while the newer units have some better bells and whistles. Still the TA has not recently been as badly shafted as SEPTA in the instance of the Norristown cars.
Part of Joe's job is to puff up the PR as much as possible -- he's not going to say something like "I only hope these cars can make it longer than the 31 years the R-16s lasted"
Also, while preventive maintenance is back on the MTA's radar now, there's no telling what some bean counter may come up with in the future. They could repeat the history of the late 1970s all over again 20 to 30 years from now, and that would shorten the R-142s lives.
Wanna bet the R-32s will be around that long?
Wanna bet the R-32s will be around that long?
Nio they won't. They'll be around for 45-50 years, max. That idiot should be horsewhipped for making a statement like that. Seventy-five to eithty years my @$$!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thank You! Someone gets the point here. Perhaps you should change your handle to the "Voice of Reason".
As I was saying, the reality of the matter is that the old cars won't last forever. Depending on how we want to look at it, it is a sign of modernization. Modernization doesn't have to be such a bad thing. Who would imagine that a subway car would become handicap accessible? Now if all stations were all built to be ADA compliant, I'd think we'd be ok! The old theory of out with the old and in with the new is kicking in. I too am going to miss the old veterans. I've essentially grown up with them, so it seems a part of my life will pass before my eyes. There's no reason to fear, my friend. Cherished memories won't be lost. Don't be surprised if you hear that a few old cars do escape the scrap line and wind up in one of the Railway Museums.
-Stef
No, I'm not going to change my SubTalk name to "Voice of Reason", although that in itself would be the opposite of "Defy Reason" :-)
Like I said, I am a nostalgia freak. But even as a nostalgia freak, I don't drive a classic automobile, although I wish I had one. I drive a 1990 Corolla. Even if I did have one, I wouldn't use it for everyday driving. That's something you want to take out for a joy ride now and then, not everyday. I don't live in a historical landmark type house. This place was built in 1986. As recently as the 1980's, I didn't want to get near computers. I hated them with a passion. Then, along came Windows and the Internet. I am an Internet junkie. I got hooked 4 years ago, and suffer "withdrawl" when I can't get online. Of everyone on SubTalk, I probably rack up the most Internet hours of all of you. When I'm not on the Internet, I'm doing something else on my PC. The whole point that I'm trying to make here is that I am very nostalgic. I think about the 1960's and 1970's alot. I love old things - trains, cars, antiques of any kind. But the key is that I can never really bring back those years. Even if I had all of Bill Gates' money, I couldn't do it. You have to cherish the fond memories and think about them alot, but also remember that this is 2000. This is the real world. With the technology that we have today, we wouldn't want to restrict ourselves to the technology that we were limited to in the 1970's. If the TA kept all the old trains running without replacing any pre-war stuff, it would be a railfan's delight. It would be heaven. Heypaul wouldn't have needed any pods. But, how would the average everyday rider feel about it? What would the rest of the real world say about New York? They would think the City is nuts. NYC would be the laughing stock of the world. New Orleans has its one landmark streetrcar line, but the whole city isn't landmark streetcars, although I feel that every city should get rid of their buses and go with light rail on the streets. Bottom line is embrace the past, remember it, savor it, love it, but don't live in it, because you can't, even if you try. I do feel that we shouldn't allow all our old treasures to be bulldozed in the name of progress either.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
my points is like the JUNK NEW CARS and JUNK RAIL CARS we see today...
why cant BRAND NEW SUBWAY & LIGHT RAIL cars be built BRAND NEW ......
and be built SIMPLE STRONG AND TOUGH!!! like the before- ww 2 cars were.......
you could even COPY THE SAME REDBIRD DESIGN !!!!! and build them so they last 40 YEARS !!!
SO NEW COULD BE AN EXACT COPY OF THE R 1-9 thru R 38 design !!!!
( i am not shouting ) the r 38 design and older BRAND NEW CARS WITH TRADIIONAL DESIGN!!!
what could be wrong with that ????? thats what i am saying some of it .....
I have a 30-year-old refrigerator to sell you, if you think that way. Tried and true technology, but hell on the electric bill. Just because it works well, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nor neccesarily is an excess of technology. But one must change their habits in responce to their environment. Reduced power consumption ultimately means reduced pollution, as now less electricity has to be generated. 'Springback' doors will reduce injuries to idiots who stick their body parts in the wrong places. Wheelchair access allows those who previously could not travel new freedom. Visual and audio aides identifying stops and locations can help those with sight and hearing impairments (along with those wearing loud Walkmans, or nosing into books and newspapers)
-Hank
MR HANK !! i dont disagree with you on everything you said but like the old automobile cars
MADE SIMPLE anyone with a SMALL tool box could fix it !!!
no i dont want your old FRIDGE although there are antique shops who do !!!
all im saying is that THEY DONT MAKE RAIL TRANSIT CARS TO LAST...... like they used to R-1-9 ( example )
Mr. Willie...I've also got a bridge i Brooklyn to sell you. It's a nice bridge, maybe your daddy can buy it for you.
I think all your posts should be deleted, they are a waste. You even got are other fellow subtalkers like Mark annoyed. Stop it already!!
-Nick
i am not doing anything wrong sir!! and i cant help it if some little boys out there cant handle-... themselves!!
i have no ill will against anybody just ON TOPIC RAIL subjects like my free CHICAGO 1981 audio rail tape!!
salaamallah@yahoo.com i will erase all harrassing racist e mails ....... thank you !!!
While you're at it, ERASE YOURSELF
while you are at it ERASE YOU !!
I knew others felt the same way. Would you believe "Willie" is in his 50's??? He sounds more like he is 5!!!!!!!!
WRONG !!! 48 !! you however sound like your -4 !!!
Ok 48, How to break that down???? Forty years old with the maturity level of a eight year old. GROW UP.
Ok 48, How to break that down???? Forty years old with the maturity level of a eight year old. GROW UP.
You hit the nail on the head. Now hit Mr. Willie on the head, Three Stooges Style!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No, I'm not going to change my SubTalk name to "Voice of Reason", although that in itself would be the opposite of "Defy Reason" :-)
Hey! We were thinking the same thing without knowing it!
Thank You! Someone gets the point here. Perhaps you should change your handle to the "Voice of Reason".
But then I'd have to change my name so I wouldn't be defying him!
were around when the P-Wire cars were delivered. It was a joke to train personel on the new
electronics and I feel that when the first train gets taken out of service, the train will sit in the barn
until Kawasaki or BOMBadier techs can get there to tell the TA, this was your engineering design,
not ours!
The cars are under warranty by the vendors. If there is a problem
during the warranty period, CED won't do anything except tell the
vendor to fix it. It isn't accurate to portray the 142 as a TA
design. It is more proper to say the car was co-designed by the
TA and its vendors. The real test will not be in the next 30 days,
or even in the next year or two. It will be ten years from now
when the warranty is long gone and that new car smell has been
replaced by the unique blend of creosote and urine that pervades
the system. If we look at the R-62s, ten years after delivery they
still had incredible MDBF, had not required heavy mods over the
years, and were generally a good investment. The same test applied
to the R-44 and R-46 orders...well, I'll let history speak for itself.
OK !!!! I will give your new 142s ten years .................................... THEN THEY WILL BE SCRAPPED - JUNK!!!!!!!
YOU ARE SO ANNOYING. YOU HAVE SAID THIS 10+ TIMES. KNOCK IT OFF OR GO AWAY.
Where's Eugenius when you need him?
Defying all Reason :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
P.S. Anybody got a mug shot of Mr. Willie? I want to know who to avoid when I'm in LA in March.
No need for one. Just avoid the RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--Mark
DONT EVEN TRY IT !!! the r 142s will not even last one third as long as the R -1 thru 9s all the way to 38!!!
in ten years your 142s will not even be good junk for SCRAP!!!!!!!!
FOOL, DON'T YOU GET IT???????? NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOU. GO PLAY WITH A RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE R142 FINE, SAY IT ONE TIME NOT TEN. YOU ARE A PEST. QUIT IT ALREADY.
well !!! im BAAAAAAACK !! ( go take a cold shower and cool of mr mark w ) get a real life and enjoy it!!
i will give your R 142 NO RAILFAN WINDOW N.Y.C SUBWAY CAR ten years ....... then it will fall apart!!!!
I HAVE A LIFE!!!!!!!!!! YOU GET A DAMN LIFE. WHAT KIND OF IDIOT WORRIES ABOUT A RAILFAN WINDOW????????????????????? NOT TO MENTION ANNOYS THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYONE ELSE. I AM NOT KNOWN AS A PAIN IN THE ASS HERE, YOU TAKE THAT TITLE. YOU ARE SO ANNOYING. NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOU.
LISTEN, THE RAILFAN WINDOW IS CALLING YOU. GO BACK TO YOUR PADDED ROOM. THANK GOD YOU ARE FAR FROM NEW YORK. YOU DON'T LIKE THE R142'S?? GOOD. DON'T COME BACK. STAY IN LA ""MR. WILLIE""
i will come back to my home of birth NEW YORK CITY N. Y. usa whenever i feel like it !!!!
I DONT USE RACIST OFF TOPIC POSTS AND FOUL LEWD FILTHY LANGUAGE !!!
recienty i recieved a R-1 - 9 and philadelphia rail fan audio tape from paul pkronenberg
and got support from subway steve ALL ON TOPIC.....
INCLUDING RAILFAN-WINDOWS !!!!!
mr. MARK W why dont you get your camera and take railfan pictures and shoot the rail system in your s
and mine beloved city THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM ......
keep yourself busy this way !!! it will make you a NICE person !!!! .............. !!!!!!
WHY DON'T YOU GO JUMP OUT OF A RAILFAN WINDOW???????????????????
I WILL WATCH YOU FIRST !!! go ahead make my day !!! you jump out of he railfan window !!!
( SINCE YOU POSTED IT ) thank you ladies first !!!!!
They're not "my" 142s....I have no stake in their success or
failure, and I'd be personally happier if the TA ordered several
thousand Lo-Vs. This is, however, a discussion group and as
such you should try basing your posts on logic and forethought
rather than just leaning your elbow on the caps lock key.
The LA Rail System? Well, you have 3 divisions that don't inter-
operate with each other, and that's all new construction!
The new blue line cars are the LA equivalent of the 142 in terms
of design complexity.
No new technology comes without teething pains. The LRV in Boston was the butt of many jokes back in the 70s. BUT 24 years later, they are reliable old warhorses and it is their intended replacements that are now the prime targets of the "I told you so" pundits. The R-142 will have some problems, without a doubt, but only in 10 or 20 years will we really have the answer. Be patient, and give the cars a chance.
I agree with you. Even the beloved R9's had teething pains (truck hunting). So did the famed P&W 200 series bullet cars, and plenty of others.
One thing sort of in favor of the R142s is that there has been little attempt to piggyback defense and aerospace technology directly into transit without some adjustment period. That wasn't the case with the LRVs, built by Boeing after the Vietnam war died down and defense contracts waned.
When the R142 start testing on Drye Ave line? So i can take some pictures while they testing R142.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Perhaps you better try for tomorrow. This is the day when they'll be on the road. Have the time? Be out at East 180th St after rush hour, since the set will have to come into the middle at the East and turn to head up to Y3 Track on the Dyre Av line.
-Stef
Thank for the information Stef & i have a question for you Stef. When you went to take the Test last week & what room did you took & how long it take? I took my test is room #320 & took me two hours & ten mintues to finish my test.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I was in Room 333, Seat 1. I didn't keep a running track on how long it took me to do the exam, but I'd say that I spent about 2hrs and 15mins at the exam. I only took 5 minutes longer than you.
Go out and get some pics for the rest of us to enjoy!
Stef
The following signs appear in the tunnel of the Broad Street Subway, and I have not been able to decode what they mean:
B
W (I think this may mean converging tracks, but I am not sure)
0
Also, north of Girard and Erie Stations there are number signs, like those that tell you where to stop the train, but they are not at a platform. Do they mean that a train of the amount of cars indicated by the number has cleared the crossover, or something else?
Also, is there any regular operation of 3 or 6 car trains on the Broad Street line?
W means warn. On the MFL, the T/O sounded the horn when we passed one. Are there single cars on the BSL? I've seen signs in stations saying 1, 3, 5, and 7. Also, do they ever run more than 4 cars?
On the BSL, there are signs for 2 to 6 cars. Most weekday locals and expresses are 5 cars, while Broad Ridge Spurs are 2 cars.
On the Market Frankford Line, most trains are 6 cars, but I have seen consists on Sundays of 4 cars.
On PATCO, stations are signed up to 8 cars, but I think most weekday trains are 6 cars, weekend are 2.
In the subway/surface portion of the tunnel, before the 22nd street station, there are two signs in the trackbed. One is ///S\\\ and the other is 20.
I always assumed that the 20 was speed, and the ///S\\\ was signal. Does that sound right?
Since the escalator from the E,J,Z station to the LIRR in Jamaica leads right up to Sutphin Blvd where the platform staircases are (rather than in the station) I think its about time they put up the electronic departure signs at each staircase like they do in the interior walkway leading from the ticket office. I got off the subway, ran up the escalator with less than a minute to catch the 4:40 PM train to Port Jefferson. (I go to Mineola) I had no idea which track it was on so I took an educated guess that since its on the Main Line it would be the last platform, either track 7 or 8. That where most Main Line trains leave from. I ran up the stairs only to see the dual mode on track 4. It appeared to be laughing at me!! By the time I ran down and then up the stairs to track 4 (I'm 46 BTW) I heard the clangs of the loco's bells and the train started moving. The only good thing was the next train, the 4:54 was an M-1 and I had the railfan window all the way to Mineola.
Today on the LIRR comming home from Hempstead the motorman and his friend had some fun by drag racing the train. He threw the controller into the P4 position and we got up to 78 in a matter of seconds. He and his friend has fun and so did I. Most of the time I take the subway and we never can get up to those speeds. It was off peak too.
BTW I never saw a motorman go all the way to the p4 position before.
Is there a ATC position somewhere on there?
Yep. Right past P4 on the M-1s. I don't know if the 3's have them.
That's one of my rubs with the LIRR. More often than not, the electrics accelerate like diesels. I've been on the occasional well tunned, well driven electric before. It's really fun.
Try taking NJT out of Hoboken some day, and get an Arrow MU. They make everything else out there look *slow*. I did Hoboken -> Newark one day. Well worth the $2 or so for the 0 to 80(?) leaving the maintenance complex employee stop.
The fact is that P-4 is not only needed for attaining MAS (Maximum Authorized Speed). Once the MAS is attained, the engineer will alternate between coast and power, just enough to maintain the speed of the train. As for the subways - where would you propose that the speed be posted at 70 - 80 MPH?
The following items are currently being offered on eBay; the closing date is tomorrow, January 13, about 5pm New York time:
Item #229915263:
The Subway: 70th Anniversary Excursion, October 27, 1974. 13-page brochure issued by Electric Railroaders' Association, with information on the history of New York City's IRT subway from its inception to opening and beyond. A tremendous amount of information has been assembled here, along with 13 well-reproduced historical photos, a roster of all IRT cars built up until 1938, and a reproduction of the IRT route map circa 1930. A beautiful item for the collector of subway memorabilia. Condition A+.
Item #229915676
IRT 1938 World's Fair Cars. 5-page brochure issued by Electric Railroaders' Association, with information on the history of these IRT cars. 2 well-reproduced historical photos, and a reproduction of the general orders for that trip are included. Another beautiful item for the collector of subway memorabilia. Condition A+.
Joe,
No offense intended but to ask $15.00 as an opening bid for a 13 page
brochure - even if it was issued by the ERA - is asking too much.
The same goes for the second item which is only 5 pages.
Past ERA publications are not as much in demand any more as one might think since there have been so many new books issued with a lot more pictures and text.
Try offering them again with maybe an opening bid of $5.00 to 7.00 and maybe someone might nibble at them.
I actively bid on items on eBay (I go by the name "Bxtrain" on eBay)
and some of the opening prices are ridculous for some of the items. Those items almost always go unsold. Example: There is a current item there "Independent Subway Transfer" with an opening bid of $9.99. I think that is a bit much for a single piece of paper.
Pardon my rantings,
Allan
The ERA sells all past fantrip handouts for $5.00 each at their headquarters in Grand Central. Yes FIVE DOLLARS
ERA headquarters at Grand Central????? Where? When are they open?
The stain glass windows stations at the viaduct on the #7 & Franklin Ave lines are excellent. Do other stations have these install?
The craftmenship is superb!
Here are the ones I know about:
Broadway-Myrtle (J/M/Z)
Peggy has already sent Wayne to shoot the A-Z on the 7, and the Franklin Shuttle and Broadway-Myrtle.
You can see that one really good by driving N/B on Myrtle from Lewis to Bway and look up just before the station. I drive that way regularly and it is really nice.
Is this on the station? I know they've also installed them in the old advertisement holders on the platforms, and they began going up in December. I was surprised. They withheld putting fancy light fixtures in the station, bu now they've given us stained glass on the platforms.
It's on the windows from the mezzanine to the outside and could be seen looking up from Myrtle just before Bway if you're coming from Lewis Av. (Under the old structure with no tracks)
If you're talking about Myrtle, they HAVE installed new light fixtures on the platform there - and they are almost-exact replicas of the original 1916 ones except a) they're a couple feet taller and b) they have sodium-vapor lamps, not little white lite bulbs. They are quite beautiful. They also have them at Sheepshead Bay, and I would guess they're going to put them at Eastern Parkway and the rehabilitated Atlantic Avenue (on the "L") as well although there they may have enough of the old ones left over to put a full set together and retrofit them with sodium lamps.
Wayne
I meant the ones under the canopy (not on the uncovered ends of the platform). They were originally supposed to put fixtures that looked something like the old el fixtures, with the round wire case, like were placed at the underground Utica and 23rd St.(Lex) stations among others. But at the last minute, they changed their minds and put up the plain square sodium lamps. So I'm surprised now that they decided to put stained glass on the platforms.
Just yeaterday, I saw where some little graffitti was written on one of them on the Queensbound side.
01/15/2000
Wayne,
I don't think the TA would retrofit those old original station light fixtures in a rehab project. Consider the fact they have been exposed to the elements for many years and are probably rusting out where you can't see it.
Bill Newkirk
I HAS taken pictures of all of the #7 Viaduct station stained glass windows EXCEPT for "G" and "H" which are in a weekdays-only exit at 33rd-Rawson AND the ones in the 46th Street-Bliss weekday-only exit, some on Dec. 11, others on Jan. 8. The next trip to town I make on a weekday I will finish up. Then I have to scan all thirty of them. Oy!
Each one of the Queens Blvd ones have a letter associated with them which stands for something in Queens ("A" = Aqueduct, "B" = Botanic Gardens, "K" = Korean neighborhood, "S" = sports, "Z" = Zoo, etc.). Some of them I am at a loss to figure out what they mean - "W" has some kind of tree in it; "X" is a mystery to me. The artists' tablets are not up yet (well, if they are I haven't seen 'em). This photo shoot is still sort of a work-in-progress.
Wayne
The talk about stain glass windows brought to mind the MTA putting stain glass windows in the subway cars. They could have holy scenes on the windows, and perhaps this would discourage defacement. Especially if there were a warning sticker saying : IF YOU ARE CAUGHT DEFACING THESE WINDOWS, YOU WILL BE ANSWERABLE TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY THAN THE MTA.
A Silly Thought? You mean you have others kinds too???
Had to say it.
Fortunately most of my thoughts are silly. Unfortunately for others, I don't keep my silly thoughts to myself.
Fortunately most of my thoughts are silly. Unfortunately for others, I don't keep my silly thoughts to myself.
Don't worry about it. You're not hurting anybody or bothering anybody. I WISH I COULD SAY THE SAME FOR SOME OF THE OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
IF YOU ARE CAUGHT DEFACING THESE WINDOWS, YOU WILL BE ANSWERABLE TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY THAN THE MTA.
Gee, you aren't referring to Rudy???
Gee, you aren't referring to Rudy???
You mean His Royal Highness, King Rudolph I aka the Duke of New York
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Soitanly!!!!!
Soitanly!!!!!
Its maw like da Duke of Noo Yawk.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Oh, a Wize guy!!!!!!!!
This concept looks like the many quotes on the Fisher Fine Arts Library designed by Frank Furness (also designed Broad St. Station) here at the University of Pennsylvnia in Philadelphia. Some rather odd 'cliches' written up there.
Josh
One thing I have noticed to my dismay with the newly decorated stations on Queens Blvd is with the replacement of the station signs. 33 St-Rawson (except for looks like temporary sign), 40 St-Lowery and 46-Bliss don't exist....it's just 33 St, 40th St, and 46 St. I want the old street names back!
Josh
Does anyone know why the N train in Astoria from Ditmars Blvd. to QbP will be replaced by a shuttle bus on weekends Sat. 7AM-Sun 7PM from Jan. 15 to Feb27th?
My guess is either track or signal work.
Just when I thought I knew and saw it all, I'm proven wrong. Yet someone always manages to surprise me. This past hour (3AM), I had awaken from my bed to look out my window and heard something rumbling down southbound on Track M at Jackson Av. What was it, you ask? It was a 4 car train of R33s from Mosholu Yard and a peculiar yellow work car at the end. It was none other than R17 #6895, intact and still running! I wonder where this old veteran was going? These days, it's hard to find a motor car of this type. Work motors had been reduced in importance since the R127s/134s came on the scene a few years ago. Last I heard, 6895 was being preserved as a Museum Car, so I'd guess it holds true. I had wondered where the car had to disappeared to since I no longer saw it at Westchester Yard. It's alive and well, and that's good enough for me. I'll have to assume that the MTA Blue and Silver R12/14 units are also safe and sound. These too, were stored at Westchester Yard. Is there anyone who knows anything about 6895's status? What about 5782 and 5871?
If 6895's alive and well, I'd guess I better pack her up and move her up to Branford to be with 6688 (All Smiles Now). Hey Lou, what about it? Here today, gone tomorrow, a working R17 in the NYCTS is a rare treasure!
-Stef
Easy, Fellah! From the excitement generated in your post, I am just glad that you didn't fall out of your apartment window. However, if you can raise the cost of buying and transporting her, it would be fine with me. We can always place her in my backyard (I can see the joy on the faces on my neighbors now).
You'll never know, what I might do, friend. Let's wait and see, shall we? Anyway, I'll be up soon to continue our work on 6688.
-Stef
All you have to do is convince Shore Line's top brass. That would be cool; 6688 would have a playmate.
Let's wait and see what happens. Would I be crazy enough to shell out money for the purchase of an additional Rapid Transit Car to their already fine collection? OH HELL YEAH! Kudos to me if I can pull off such a thing....
-Stef
Kudos indeed. I remember bouncing a similar scenario off Eddie Sarkauskas in 1980 about the possibility of the museum acquiring a playmate for 1689. He just laughed, saying he had enough trouble convincing the powers that be of the merits of acquiring just one such car.
All I'm saying is that it may not be easy. But good luck anyway.
That's great news, Stef. I think that 6688 should have a mate, and 6895 would be ideal. The sad part is if she is painted yellow, don't you suppose that she is probably pretty much gutted on the inside? If that be the case, you may spend years trying to re-equip her. How close were you to the track? Were you able to see her interior?
6688 and 6895 together again would be a very attractive drawing card for museum visitors.:-)
Well, reuniting 6688 and 6895 is just a fanatsy, but I think that there's hope for the car, even if it's a work motor. She's pretty much intact from what I could tell. She's not missing anything on the exterior. All on the outside is intact and unmodified. On the interior, she's missing the standee poles, which could probably be put back. I should know because two years ago, I had the opportunity to ride 6895 around Westchester Yard here in the Bronx. There was nothing wrong with the old gal. The car is Yellow with Black Stripes on the outside (and a black roof), and she's beige with orange doors on the inside, very much like sister 6688. However, the car was not a Redbird in last years of service. I belive, but I can't recall, that 6895 was painted white (covered in grafitti, unfortunately) before being retired from passenger service.
6895 will find somebody to run with down the line. 6609 is eagerly awaiting a reunion of sorts, that is if she ever gets to leaves the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. I have pictures of 6895 on this site taken by me. Go to the section on yards and click on Westchester Yard.
As for 6688, I hope somewhere along the way she'll get a companion to play with.
Cheers,
Stef (Excited Guy)
I went to the Westchester Yards section that you referred to and looked at a number of the pictures. 6895 does look good from the outside! There was a picture of another car in yellow at the site with its doors open. I was surprised at how good the interior of the car looked, for being painted yellow. I guess I was wrong! I sure hope you can work something out for 6895.
In reference to 6688, I recently saw a picture of one end of it in color. I don't know when the picture was taken but it appeared as if the red paint was coming off and white was showing through. Is the paint coming off 6688, or did I see an old picture?
Karl:
One side has been stripped and primered. The roof is stripped and awaiting primer. We have begun to work on the ends, so the picture you have seen is probably current. The ends will be more difficult to work on, since the steel is thicker, and thus much harder to heat up to remove the paint.
I read a lot of posts about the work of redoing the roof of 6688. It stands to reason that you would be doing the whole car. I wish I wasn't so far away, but if I were there I would probably be looking for the anti-climber to put back on 1227, or trying to finish the ends of 1349, so it could be repainted. I guess that is the problem at museums, too many things to do, and too few workers to do them.
Time...and funding. Right now we aren't doing much
"restoration" of 1227 because it is our only operable BU.
Maintenance comes first. 1349 is an active restoration project,
although there is really only one guy doing the bulk of the
work. The 1349 project could use funds. All el cars suffer
from end beam rot which causes the platform to sag and in extreme
cases the coupler will fall off. We had one spare beam made up,
that was installed on 1349 this past summer. 1349 will need the
beam for the other end, and 1227 will eventually need at least
one. 1349 will also need some funds to make up replacement parts
for its group switch, fix up the batteries, get some new gaskets
for the air brake system, etc., if it is to run.
Perhaps when R15 #5965 (RD335) or one of the other 1950 stock is ready to be retired they can be moved to Branford or another museum. They might make good playmates for the R17s. I took a peek inside RD335 - she is pretty much intact, again minus the standee poles. The grab bars are still there but the little square handholds are not.
Wayne
You'll never know. Personally, I wouldn't take a Rider Car and convert it to a Museum Car because it may be more trouble than it's worth. The entire car has to have it's modfications undone, plus whatever parts that are missing need to be put back. I'd just take 6239 instead.
-Stef
No offense, but I doubt any museum would want a rider car as
part of their collection, unless the purpose was to illustrate
how passenger cars get re-used as work equipment. But if the
purpose is to illustrate a passenger car, rider cars are so
incomplete as to be worthless. A few hours ago I looked over
RD339 (I think), an R-17 rider car with R-22 storm doors.
It was basically garbage. There were a few trim pieces that
I wouldn't mind having a spares or to replace missing and
damaged parts on 6688, but for the most part all of the parts
were in far worse condition and a lot of the significant hardware
(brake stand, controller, door controls, everything under the car)
was gutted.
The best cars for museums to get are the ones that came right out
of pax service, like 6688 and 1689. If the car was assigned to
work service, a horse isn't usually modified that heavily if you
get to it quickly, but rider cars, transition cars, pump cars,
hose cars, CWR cars.....ugh!
I would agree with Jeff. Musuems in general typically have so many "important" pieces that need work to acquire sometime that is going to require a lot of undoing seems the wrong way to go. Many of us here hope that several local museums grab a few of the Red Birds before they go under the scrappers torch. It would be a real shame if only the R-17 & R-16 at Kingston are all that remains of the once mighty Red Bird fleet. So if they pick a more recent one that's in good shame, I won't mind. 10 years from now when many of us are spending happy hours riding her we'll probally be very happy with their acquisition.
Mr t__:^)
It also depends on the car type and its historical significance. IRM in Union acquired CSL car 1374, part of a series of Matchbox streetcars, some years ago. It had been converted to a service car and was used as a salt spreader before being retired, and needless to say, was in very sad shape. Luckily, a sister car was found in Wisconsin (on a farm, supposedly) with many needed parts. To make a long story short, after many, many hours of diligent work, 1374 has been fully restored inside and out, and is run regularly for visitors. I rode on it back in 1996.
You're right: the best museum cars are the ones which came directly from passenger service, and if they're still in good shape, so much the better.
You're right: the best museum cars are the ones which came directly from passenger service, and if they're still in good shape, so much the better.
I wonder if there's any hope for the Mineola. I saw pics of the Mineola in the History Channel program, but the car doesn't look anything like the pics. I saw some fairly recent pics of the Mineola. The restorers have their work cut out for them. The car is in very poor shape. The Shoreline people know what I'm talking about. I'm sure Stef has seen what kind of shape the Mineola is in. That car needs professionals that do restoration of antique furniture, carpenters and woodworkers, in addition to the regular train mechanics and electricians.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I haven't seen Mineola myself, but from what I understand, part of it is still in good shape while the portion which was exposed to the elements is not. And, yes, it will take a team of craftsmen to retore Mineola to its former splendor.
At least it was salvaged and not scrapped.
At least it was salvaged and not scrapped
That's for sure. Probably because it had no scrap value. It is wood, not steel.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How about an R-21/22. I don't know why noone has been interested in saving one of those. It being so close to the R-17's is no reason, as several of those are preserved.
I agree with that. In fact, last night about 10:15 at the IND level of 59th St, a work train headed north. At the rear was, I think, RD360.
It appeared to be not just an R22, but an R22 "special", one of the few (10) with the speckled green walls and coral fibre glass seats. The drop down storm door window was a give away as were the side passenger doors. Any takes on this one?
Joe C
I honestly don't have an answer for you. They are very similar, so the question is, what would be the difference? Of course there could be other unofficial Museum Cars out there that I know nothing about, and they might be R21/22s.
-Stef
Actually, if there are no R21/22s in dead storage, one of them could come off the signal dolly train, once they're retired. I believe the cars to still be pretty much intact, so I think this would not totally be impossible. Rider cars should not be considered for preservation as a whole, as there's not much to salvage. Their might be parts that could be used, though!
-Stef
That signal dolly is total junk. If anything, buy 7371 for parts. If I recall, 6688 needed OEM door panels last year. The 2CY compressor can be used with no mods on 6688 as it is probably the last one in service. The body is rotting away and the propulsion system are shot on all cars. The convertors keep dropping out too and last week, the train was O/S. It had to be pushed to 207 Yard by another train behind it. If you can get an overhaul, god bless you. You will need truck changeouts on any of those cars. The 7307 has mixed comp AND CAST IRON shoes on the same car, resulting in worn wheels and flats. Any work equipment is shoddy, due probably to the TA's lack of investment into work cars. Take them for the parts unless you are prepared to spend big $$$.
The 7307 has mixed comp AND CAST IRON shoes on the
same car,
Are you serious?
Yeah I have seen it. Not to mention the swing sashes and some of the seats are mssing, they have Toshiba battery chargers, and GE SCM II controllers under them. One car has a newer model WABCO compressor and one has it's original type.
The rust is out of control as well.
Dr. Erik, May I perform an autopsy on that car.
Hey it sits at 207 yard at this very moment.
I was on the 125 Street on the A express platform at 2:45 PM when I saw 5138 being pushed by some old R22s. What was that all about? Hoiw many of those old trains are there?
An R22 coupled to an R68A? That's unusual.
It must have been a yard movement. There are some work motors out there, but there aren't many as there were years ago. The R22s are used primarily for the Signal Dolly (work car) and Revenue Collector. There were many more out there in Refuse Collection Service, but since the R127/134 Work Motors arrived, the older work horses were nothing more than extras. A number of work cars went off to the scrapper along with the retired passenger cars that were never converted to work service.
In answer to your question, there are 5 work motors for the signal dolly, and 20 revenue collector cars. That means that only 25 old cars are still working under their own power.
R22 Cars that pull work cars S01 and S02 (Signal Dolly): 7307, 7366, 7371, 7420, 7460.
R22 Revenue Collector Cars: OR714-OR723, IR714-IR723. There's at least one R21 in Revenue Collector Service.
All I can say is that an actively working R17 (one that operates on it's own, not with diesels) is extremely hard to find these days...
-Stef
It shouldn't be too surprising, as both cars have the same H-2-C coupler. The electric portions, well, that's another story.
Speaking of couplers, was there any consideration to replace the Ohio Brass couplers on the R-44s and R-46s during GOH with H-2-Cs? Or would it have been more trouble than it's worth?
Replace the R44/46 Couplers with H2 Heads? I'm not sure if that's even possible. Steve from Concourse Yard would know....
-Stef
That was the incident Harold was reffering to. His train the Signal Dolly broke down as usual. It had to be towed by the train of R-68a's
If that's the case, then someone better start borrowing passenger cars to pull the signal dolly since the R22s are falling apart at the seams. I guess these work units will be on the way to the scrap line soon. Saving these work units as a whole wouldn't be worth it. They might make a great parts source.
-Stef
For a few weeks Harold did have some R-32's to use on the dolly. Funny sight.
Pardon my ignorance, but what function does a "Signal Dolly" preform as opposed to a train set that carries rail.
Mr t__:^)
I was on the 125 Street on the A express platform at 2:45 PM when I saw 5138 (8 cars) being pushed by some old R22s. What was that all about? Hoiw many of those old trains are there?
They were being pushed? Hmmm. If the R22s were doing the pushing, something must have been wrong with the Kawasaki R68As.
-Stef
Naaaaawwwwwwww!!
A few months ago, I suggested that the denizens of SubTalk Adopt a particular vehicle. Well, I think that R17 which is now in work service is an ideal candidate for such a fundraising/volunteer campaign. Since the museum that has 6688 already has 501(c)(3) status, that museum could set up a fund to preserve the other R17 and Subtalk and it's posters could work together to help the cause Fundraising, Publicity, and Volunteer effort can make it happen. Just let me know where I can send my check when the time comes.
I like it, I like it! You have the right idea, but keep in mind that 6895 is not in the jurisdiction of the Branford Electric Railway Association. If that car is to be preserved, it will be done so through the Transit Museum. I don't think money's too much of a problem since a yard superintendent had expressed interest in restoring the car with personnel on a volunteer basis. Then again, plans always change, and the car might get put on the back burner. Hold onto you're check. You may still have to put it to a good cause....
-Stef
[A few months ago, I suggested that the denizens of SubTalk Adopt a particular vehicle.]
Your suggestion would be an excelent way for folks out of town or otherwise unable to physically help with the restoration of a subway car to have envolvement in such an effort. Acquiring a new car with such an end in mind would take a lot more cash then joining one of the local museums and earmarking an extra donation toward the restoration of an existing car in their collection. This way the "adopted" car's progress would show results much faster, and therefore gratify the group in a more timely fashion. When running the group could plan a "Field Trip" to take her for a spin or at least have the photos posted here for all to see her running on the line.
I'm thinking of:
- at Coney Island: One of the 3 Standards ... the one most restored
- at Sea Shore/ME: The Hi-V, SIRT 366
- at Kingston: R-4, Lo-V, or Q type
- at Shoreline/Branford: the H&M, SIRT, Standard, Chicago 4280
This writer has had many hours of pleasure of getting dirty on/in and around the R-17 at Branford. I look forward to our next project car, the Lo-V ... then after we're "trained" we may get down to some serious restoring. If you can't be their physically any help is sincerely appreciated and put to good use by these museums. So, by all means join John and adopt a car. I'm sure he won't mind if you'ld rather talk to him off-line about this.
Please feel free to talk to Jeff H., Stef, Doug, Todd, Erick, Harry, Mike H., Mark W., Bob D. or my self off line if you'ld prefer!
Mr t__:^)
I'd suggest anyone in the carpentry trade adopt the Q-car at TMNY. It would be a great learning experience for me as I have with Eric's help, put up a NICE model railroad together. But you can never have too many skills. Woodworking is not one of my most creative but is one that will help TMNY for it's trolley and railcar collection.
I have noticed many speed limits in subway tunnels are posted as 17 mph or 26 mph. Why these odd numbers rather than 15 or 25.
Speaking of speed, is it true that some new cars in nyc have no speedometers?
I've seen digital speedometers on Broad Street B-IVs and on IRT redbirds on the 2, but nothing else.
All NYCT subway cars are required to and have speedometers.
Some of them are out of whack! I saw a Q Train stop and the speedometer said 4 mph. It then cleared itself up after the T/O took power.
The dopler speedometer sometimes will, depending on where the train stops, read other moving objects. If it reads 4 MPH while the train is not moving, chances are, it's reading a fluorescent light in the street, below.
... or a track rabbit beneath the train :)
--Mark
Rim shot! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't recommend doing this but if you ever speed, and get caught, all you have to say is: "the speedometer said 25"
Heading towards Philly the other month, I naturally got the head end of an NJT trenton train and watched out the front.
A few interesting things:
Outside of Edison (I think it was Edison), the locomotive (pushing), decided for some reason to stop pushing the train, then give it a nice shove. Both me and the conductor (comming up to the front) nearly ended up on the floor. Yuck.
On our way to Trenton, we were doing 96 in notch 3.
When NJT trains break 100, the lights go out and bells start ringing in the cab.
Other thing I've noticed is they use digital speedos (kind of like what the LIRR has, but not really). Actually, the only place I've not seen digital ones is the New Haven line. I don't know if MN uses them or not.
I know at least some of the NYCTA ones are basically a radar gun aimed at the tracks. I'm not really sure exactly how the works, though I know the doppler effect is involved there
Steve, hating to bust your bubble, but if I had a dollar for every Redbird with no speedometer in the #1 cab that I've been in, I could buy lunch for the next couple of weeks.
Now that you mention it...
I've ridden on trains of Redbirds and have not seen speedometers in the cabs. Are they mounted in the same location as on the R-32s and R-38s? On those cars, you can the speedometer by looking straight through the cab door hinges.
It's too bad the older equipment didn't have speedometers. I would have loved to see just how fast the R-10s used to go along CPW on the A. Definitely at least 45 mph, if not 50.
Just a little preview of my light rail article: Denver's LRVs have analog speedometers which read up to 65 mph; the speed limit on the private ROW is 55.
I've not really taken time to look for them, but Jr. and I were on a #7 redbird leaving TSq yesterday and we had a chance to look in the cab while the T/O was getting settled in. It had a speedometer. Keep in mind that this is a sample of one, so statistically it's totally irrelevant [just like some posters on this board :-)].
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If anyone is interested in viewing a video clip of the R142, go to
http://www.NY1.com/NewsBeats/transit.html
I'd love to see it, but I can't get it to work. I'm using IE 5, RealPlayer 7, and have a 512K SDSL connection. Can anyone else get it to work today?
I'd love to see it, but I can't get it to work. I'm using IE 5, RealPlayer 7, and have a 512K SDSL connection. Can anyone else get it to work today?
Yes, it worked fine for me. I'm using IE5 RP7 and a 56K modem on a dial-up connection. Except for the usual "buffering" with Real Player, the movie ran OK. That's the first real good look that I got of the interior of the R-142's. It is a complete departure from everything that we've known on the subway. Very Impressive!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm using IE4 with Real Plyaer G2. Works fine.
I never did get it to work with my PC on our DSL line at work, but it worked beautifully on my Mac with fast ethernet connection at home... what a great video!
Go Mac, go... :)
Glad you were able to. I didn't have the opportunity to try it at work, but here on the Mac it's getting "error 11", which on the Mac is usually indicative of an extension conflict. I've got the latest software, supposedly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can anyone get it to work with AOL? Thanks.
I've used Netscape on a T1 line at work and IE5 on Microsoft at home on 56K modem. No problems. Might be AOL itself. Good Luck.
Don't even try viewing it on WebTV Classic (the cheap non-upgraded version) It shut of the box and I had to sign back on again.
Jeffrey,
Here are some still frames showing most of the visual highlights:
Stills from the NY1 R142 video
If you can't get it to work, here are some still frames showing most of the visual highlights:
Stills from the NY1 R142 video
Thanks for the link Paul, very cool.
Interesting ... the report says that the red stripe on the outside of the cars indicates that the car has "wheelchair seating" ... it isn't to commemorate the passing of the Redbirds ....
--Mark
Well, it's a little of both, I'm sure. THey could have used any other color, couldn't they?
Anyway, I wonder if there is any chance that Dave can talk NY1 into letting us archive the clip... If there's a cost associated, I'm sure we can all come up with something. It's the most comprehensive video clip on the R142 I've seen yet.
-Hank
Saving the video clip to your local hard drive is not possible also.
I've tried with no success. Good idea Hank.
For those who can't see RealVideo, here are some still frames showing most of the visual highlights:
Stills from the NY1 R142 video
Dave, feel free to post these on the site.
Some observations from the video:
I like the new LCD side destination displays. They look to be the same type as on SEPTA's M-4s, which are great - very easy to read. Much better than the old black-dots-on-yellow LCD displays.
They showed both Kawasaki 7211 and Bombardier 6301.
I can spot one difference between the two - the short vertical bars that connect to the ceiling on the sides: It looks like on the R142A, they curve in toward the center. On a R142, they curve out toward the sides. If that's true, that's an easy way to tell from the inside.
It looks like they used only red LEDs on the front line indicator display, just like the R110A. Why? Full color would have cost no more than $500 more per display (at most), and would have been well worth it, IMHO. If you're spending $2 million on a subway car, why not? We're only talking about "A" cars, after all...
On the outside one has a thick piece of rubber around the front window. Which one is that?
I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it. Yep, in that picture of the two side-by-side, one is a Bombardier and one is a Kawasaki.
I'd guess the one on the left, with the rubber around the front door window, is the Bombardier. I say that only because there's an interior shot of 6301 that shows the inside of the front door, and there's rubber around the window on the inside, so that's probably more likely to have rubber on the outside, too. Just an educated guess...
At the risk of boring everyone by repeating myself, I vote for Saturday, April 29. I'll be in NY that weekend and would like to get together with my fellow SubTalkers for a tour!
heydave--- nothing wrong with boring people, I do that all the time. For what's it worth, I will set that date aside and be happy to join you and anyone else who I haven't as yet alienated.
That's great! Will you let Dave Pirman know so he can put it in the Upcoming Events section of Subtalk? We can provide more information as to time, etc., as we get more responses.
Once there's a loose plan, then I'll add it.
Any NON-school day would be ideal for your tour. As I've said before, Stillwell Avenue becomes a juvenile deliquency training ground on schoolday afternoons.
As long as others are promoting their preferred dates I'll chime in with mine. Anytime in June or later as I'll be in Florida until then. My guess is that more people may have free time in the summer than in April anyway. Of course I wouldn't mind April as long as there could be another tour in the summer that I could attend. I would love to get the chance to meet my fellow SubTalkers, especially in Coney with the Cyclone and Nathan's hot dogs and HOT fries. Maybe also Totono's and of course the Wonder Wheel. As far as I'm concerned the swinging cars of the Wonder Wheel are scarier than the Cyclone. Maybe I'm just more used to the Cyclone.
Alan Glick
Sorry, Alan, the Wonder Wheel is a walk in the park compared to the Cyclone!
But, either is scary after a few hours at the Irish Fair!
Interesting... I've ridden the Cyclone three times but for some reason could not bring myself to ride the Wonder Wheel. lol
BTW, June works for me as well, since I'm hoping to move to Boston on or around June 1st. A tour of the CI / Stillwell facility would be ample justification for a weekend trip down to NYC. Maybe Acela will even be running by then. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Moving to Boston, eh? Well, while riding their system, be sure and stop off at the State House and pay your respects to my 8G Grandfather, Sir John Leverett - he's buried in King's Chapel Burying Ground and his portrait hangs in the State House. He served as Governor from 1673 to his death in 1678/9.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of the "T" and the (Old) State House, I couldn't believe when I was in Boston that there was a subway station entrance built into the colonial-era Old State House. (I wasn't angry in the least, just very surprised.) Obviously, a room or rooms in the building had to be gutted (to a greater or lesser degree) to accomodate the station, though the main hall of the building seemed intact from what I could see through the windows. Would the historic preservation folks even allow that nowadays?
I doubt it. You would know better than I, but it's my understanding that if a building is designated a National Historic Landmark, as I'm sure the Old State House is, federal funds cannot be used to make any substantial alterations that would affect the historic integrity or character of the structure - and I'd have to say that building a subway entrance would do just that! (And I'm sure that federal funds would be involved, in this day at least, with any subway construction.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I rode the Cyclone once. It was the first, and last time I've ever been on a coaster. I hate them.
I wonder if they will ever repair and re-open the Thompson coaster ....
Check out this website for a list of most of the roller coasters that were ever in Coney Island. I have ridden on 4 of them - Cyclone, Thunderbolt, Tornado and the Zip in Steeplechase.
http://naid.sppsr.ucla.edu/coneyisland/articles/coasterlist.htm
Gee, in all my earlier postings I think I got the Thunderbolt and the Tornado mixed up!!! It was the Tornado I went on many times, not the Thunderbird.
I think you still have it mixed up, Jeff! Thunderbird was/is? a cheap wine.
That's funny, I thought, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" was a cheap wine.
You forgot the little dipper in Astroland. Oh Yest Jeff I have riddent roller coasters since, The Matterhorn in Disneyland and the indoor one Space Mountain also in Disneyland, and tech. THEY ARE ROLLAR COASTERS
Yes, and the new one in Disney World, at the Disney-MGM Theme park is also a Roller Coaster, much more tamer than Cyclone, called "Rock-N-Roller Coaster, By Aerosmith" I rode that sucker about 4 times, I couldn't get on to Space Mountain, it had an Hour wait.
Have you seen the remains of the Tornado? It saddened me to see the debris of what was left of a once great ride. I think it epitomizes what has happened to Coney Island. DAMN IT!!!!!!!!
Have you seen the remains of the Tornado? It saddened me to see the debris of what was left of a once great ride. I think it epitomizes what has happened to Coney Island. DAMN IT!!!!!!!!
I think a fire destroyed the Tornado in the late 1970's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Likewise for the other parks and coasters that once were.
Jeff Stanton's site - lots of great Coney Island info. A must read if you're into the history of the area.
--Mark
When I was a teen in the 60's I went to Coney Is with a friend from school. He was never there and didn't know about the sliding cars and of course I didn't tell him!! We went on the W.W. and when the car started sliding he started screaming for dear life, he thought it was an accident and the car fell off. I was laughing the whole time. As I said in an earlier post I finally went back on the W.W. this past summer with my wife and kid as they gave free tickets to it with admission to the aquarium.
By the way, what's Totono's??
I had the same experience with the Wonder Wheel. A friend of mine was to scared to ride the Cyclone. I suggested the Wonder Wheel instead. After all, how scary could a ferris wheel be? I make sure we got on one of the sliding cars. You should have seen the look on his face as the car srated sliding. I started rocking the car (even though this scared me, which fact I was able to hide) to make things even scarier.
Totono's is a pizza joint that bakes its pies in a brick oven. A big favorite among pizza nuts. It's on Mermaid (if I remember correctly).
Alan
I don't care when as long as it is a Sunday and the rides are open.
Any trip to Coney Island planned by our railfan club had better be sure that the Cyclone is open. Otherwise, no dice. And I get the front seat when we ride. Who wants to ride up front with me. It's the only way to go. And please let's organize this. I'm getting really excited and right now I even have the money for the trip. How about that?
Front seat for me too. It's the best way to experience any roller coaster. If the front seat's occupied I jump in any car close to the front. Then I do the re-ride and hop to the front seat. Hands up and leaning against the bar for that first drop. Ya-Hoo!!!
It is indeed a national treasure. Plus, it's a national treasure that runs on rails. That means it beats all the other so called national treasures.
Alan Glick
Wooden rails mind you. Have you those new super coasters? Like the ones at Cedar Point.
Haven't done much coaster riding outside of my old home town of Brooklyn and at Busch Gardens in Tampa. I avidly watch those tv documentaries about coasters. One of my dreams is to be like those ACE guys and go on trips just to ride great coasters.
Alan Glick
Sea Beach Fred, better go up to Magic Mountain or Down to Knotts and try their toys first, and see if you can take it. After all you ain t a kid anymore Brighton Bob
I've been to Cedar Point, Knoebels, Dorney Park, Dollywood, Rye Playland, Rockaway Playland, and several other smaller parks. I was on both the Thunderbolt and Tornado. I still like the Cyclone the best. I feel that steel loses the effect and inverted loops are a waste of time.
I feel that steel loses the effect and inverted loops are a waste of time.
You would think with technological advances and computer simulation, that the modern roller-coasters would be better than the ones from yesteryear. the reverse holds true. The modern roller-coasters can never equal what they built decades ago in the early 1900's. I agree. The Cyclone is the best. It is the roller-coaster.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Big Al: You sound like my kind of person. It's a deal. We ride in the front on the first ride. But please, let's get this thing organized so I can know the date and plan accordingly. Remember, I'm in California 3000 miles away. Got to make hotel and airline reservations.
I can't make the April date. If there will be another Coney tour in the summer (after the end of May) I could arrange my summer trip to Brooklyn to coincide with the tour day.
The front seat MUST be reserved for Mr. Willie if he comes since its sort of like a railfan window.
Who is Mr. Willie if I may be so bold to ask?
Your neighnor, Mr LA Transit Guy
If I get there, anyone who wants the front seat on the Cyclone can have it--true Coney Island roller coaster professionals ride in the back seat, arms up in the air.
Otherwise, if you're in the front seat, you're halfway down the hill before you pick up speed. The full speed starts as the back gets to the top of the hill. Result? Better, faster-seeming ride.
One time denizen of Scovill's and Oceantide in Coney Island, with Cyclone stops on the way home to Bay Ridge, especially on the Franklin-Nassau Sundays.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Yes, the last seat is fast, but the first seat is a visual thrill. That first drop is so steep, the first time I went over it in the front seat I couldn't see the tracks beneath me and I thought I was flying into space.
Alan Glick
Hey Alan, let Big Ed ride in the back, you and I will ride in the front and be "in the lead" And we will get a better view and we seem to disappear over the edge. YEA!!!!!!
The front seat MUST be reserved for Mr. Willie
if he comes since its sort of like a railfan window.
01/13/2000
ALAN,
If the Stillwell tour goes off in April, than a repeat tour can be held in June. Look at the Polo Grounds Shuttle tour which is this Sunday(1/16). I was there and due to popular demand, a second one was planned. After all, it's only a walking tour, nothing complicated.
I suggest everybody keep an open mind on the original April date and maybe a second June date. That way everybody can be accommodated.
Bill Newkirk
Make sure the Giants ain't home that day. Otherwise the Polo Grounds area will be very crowded.
Sorry folks, wrong tour. I guess I been on the net too long!!!
Shame on you Jeff. If you are in your 50's you should no better than to equate Stillwell Avenue in Brooklyn with the Giants. There were no Giants fans in Coney Island when I was a kid. That was Dodger territory. Like pollutants in the ocean, there were a few Yankee fans, but the portable radios blared away Dodger games on the beaches of Coney Island until the Bums left town.
Actually only 46, but I feel 70!!! Actually I thought they were talking about the Polo Grounds Tour and was trying to be funny!!!
01/13/2000
JEFF,
If you're interested in coming on the Polo Grounds tour, we need a lookout to warn us of any oncoming composite cars !
Bill Newkirk
Hey Fred, maybe her meant the Football Giants. By the way you lived in Queens not Brooklyn Didn t you. A long drive to left field, Bobby Thompson did it, THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT
Brighton Express Bob: I lived in both boroughs, though longer in
Queens. And it's The giants win the pennant, the giants win the pennant, Bobby Thomson hit it into the lower left field stands and the people are going crazy, the people are going crazy, HOOOOOOO Wooooooooo. I don't believe it, I don't bel;ieve it. And you've just helped to ruin part of my day. What a friend!
Sea Beach Fred Ha Ha Ha, by the way Ralpha Branca works with my nephew in White Plains
I have two question regarding the new fleet:
1) Why did the cars receive Ohio Brass Couplers? What is the advantage to using Ohio Brass compared to the traditional H2 Heads?
The fact that Ohio Brass is being used makes the cars incompatible with everything else.
2) The Motorman's Console - I haven't seen the T/O console, so I wonder if braking and acceleration is all on one controller? If that's not the case, how do you perform braking function with this fleet? If braking and acceleration is all in one controller is this problematic for the T/O or anyone else?
-Stef
My feeling is that it is a single habdle controller but will know for sure this weekend. Hopefully, photos will follow shortly there-after.
As for the OB couplers, after a dozen years with the R-46 fleet, I'm not a fan of them. By the way, while OB coupler has became the generic name for the coupler. Only the R-44 actually had Ohio Brass couplers. Technically referred to as Flat-face-Hook type coupler, the R-46 couplers were made by Dresser Industries. Replacement couplers for both R-44 and R-46 during overhaul were produced by Hadaday.
It's my understanding that Wabco no longer produces the H2C coupler and the (OB) coupler was chosen so as not to go to another new type.
My feeling is that it is a single handle controller but I will know for sure this weekend. Hopefully, photos will follow shortly there-after.
As for the OB couplers, after a dozen years with the R-46 fleet, I'm not a fan of them. By the way, while OB coupler has became the generic name for the coupler. Only the R-44 actually had Ohio Brass couplers. Technically referred to as Flat-face-Hook type coupler, the R-46 couplers were made by Dresser Industries. Replacement couplers for both R-44 and R-46 during overhaul were produced by Hadaday.
It's my understanding that Wabco no longer produces the H2C coupler and the (OB) coupler was chosen so as not to go to another new type.
Interesting. It was always my understanding that the H2C was a bit more sturdy and reliable than the hook (or Tomlinson, I guess, if you prefer). While the hook is a bit simpler in design I heard that the pneumatic uncoupling was not always reliable and that pull-aparts did occasionally happen (if you didn't give them a good shot upon coupling). Does your or anyone's experience suggest otherwise? I've seen plenty of H2C couplers stick while cutting but a decent shot with a hammer seems to be all that's required.
The OB style coupler is more difficult to uncouple because it requires buffing while the H2C requires stretching. However, the OB style is more prone to ware. The hook-Pin bushing is particularly prone to wear.
Perhaps they don't WANT those cars coupled to the older cars. With all the electronics built into the cars, it might not be a good idea.
-Hank
Let me know what you find.
Thanks!
Stef
I work on Hudson Street in Jersey City and for the past few months have had the privledge of watching the track and overhead being intstalled for the Light Rail. Last week they started testing, with a little ceremony at the Exchange Place stop. They are running between 6 to 10 trains every day testing. So if anyone wants to see them just take the PATH over to exchange place.
On an unrelated subject... as the r142's are the car of the future with passenger intercom, annoucements heard on the platform and railfan windows between cars... has anyone seen a PATH car before?
On an unrelated subject... as the r142's are the car of the future with passenger intercom, annoucements heard on the platform and railfan windows between cars... has anyone seen a PATH car before?
...or Philly's M-4, with all of that, plus other R142 features like climate control, AC traction, dynamic braking, independent-operation worm-drive doors, ADA compliance, etc.
PLUS the M-4 has features the R142 doesn't have, like high-tech CCTV OPTO, a railfan window, 8 easy-to-read LCD text displays per car, automated audio annoucements that work and are intelligible, cab-signal-ready, etc.
Following is a list of the original lengths of platforms on the IND’s Brooklyn-Queens crosstown route. Those connections to other track lines have already been touched upon.
Court Square : start 1230+07, end 1236+67
Van Alst-21st Street : start 1211+32, end 1217+92
Greenpoint Avenue : start 1157+72, end 1164+32
Nassau Avenue : start 1131+52, end 1138+32
Metropolitan Avenue-Grand Street : start 1084+77, end 1091+37
Broadway : start 1060+52, end 1067+12
Flushing Avenue : start 1039+42, end 1046+02
Myrtle-Willoughby Avenue : start 1017+47, end 1024+52
Bedford-Nostrand Avenue : start 989+22, end 995+82
Classon Avenue : start 970+82, end 977+42
Clinton-Washington Avenue (II) : start 951+82, end 958+42
(Between this and the next station, the mile chaining code changes to that similar to the Fulton Street line)
Fulton Street : E2 platform start 733+55, end 740+15; E1 platform start 733+70, end 740+30 (from north end to south end)
NEXT: The Sixth Avenue-Houston Street-Rutgers Street stations.
If the following are on NASDAQ or the NYSE, what are their symbols?
Rohr
Breda
Bombardier
Kawaski
Orion
Any other subway car/bus manufacturer
Thanks, in advance.
Almost any stock quote service (e.g. quicken.excite.com, quote.yahoo.com) should have Symbol Lookup. However these services are mostly limited to NYSE, AMEX, Nasdaq, and OTCBB stocks; you won't find Breda, Bombardier, or Kawasaki on an American market. If you've got an account at a full-service brokerage you should be able to have a broker find out for you.
It is actually a school project. Rohr turned up no matches. Orion turned up this:Symbol Name
NNO.TO Northern Orion Explorations Ltd
NNO.V Northern Orion Explorations Ltd
ORIO3.SA ORION ON (Orion SA)
1ORIO4.SA ORION PN (Orion SA)
ORIO4.SA ORION PN (Orion SA)
OAC.BO Orion Acids and Chemicals Ltd
MTMR Orion Acquisition Corp II
MTMRW Orion Acquisition Corp II
MTMRZ Orion Acquisition Corp II
04390.KS ORION ELECTRIC (Orion Electric Co Ltd)
ORFN Orion Financial Ltd
1ORIO3.SA ORION ON (Orion SA)
ORN.V ORION RSC CORP
ORTG Orion Technologies Inc
1TROR3.SA TRORION ON (Trorion SA)
TROR3.SA TRORION ON (Trorion SA)
1TROR4.SA TRORION PN (Trorion SA)
TROR4.SA TRORION PN (Trorion SA)
Any guesses as to which it is?
Thanks, in advance.
Try Bus Industries Ltd (Toronto Stock Exchange)? or Orion Bus Industries Ltd (TSE)?
Go to www.transit-center.com/orion/ they have a link to Orion Bus Industries
The answer is
S) None of the above
Orion is not a company, it's owned by Western Star Holdings.
I can't seem to find Kawasaki Heavy Industies. I imagine it is only traded overseas.
Bombardier Inc is traded on the Toronto exchange:
BBDa.TO
BBDb.TO
Couldn't find the others...
One thing to keep in mind is that the stock performances of Bombardier and Kawasaki won't tell you much about the state of the railcar business. Both companies are diversified manufacturers and railcars represent a relatively small part of their revenues.
Rohr - ?
Breda - ?
Bombardier - BDRBF
Kawasaki Heavy Industries - KWHIY
Western Star Truck Holding - WSH
Hi Folks, I have a question. Whats up with the 2 above mentioned cars? Are they ever going to see day light again? I hope there could be some way to get a fantrip or something going with these good ol'cars. I miss the R17s What can you do. Stef any thoughts? Perhaps bring down 6688 and 6895 to the museum and get a 3 car train trip going. PS just exactly how long has it been since these cars ran? Are their any other R17s at Coney Island awaiting restoration? Regards.
Those cars in the Museum have not really been moved very far since they were put there in 1976.
For all we know the motors on those are burned out or so dirty they would have to undergo an overhaul in order to be used for an excursion
(not to mention all the equipment that would have to be moved just to get them out of the Museum).
On a related subject, when the Museum closes for renovation (whenever that is), I have been advised by a Museum source that all the rolling stock will be moved out to facilitate the renovations. No mention was made as to where they will be moved to. Maybe CI yard or the cars might be left in the tunnel just outside the station.
01/13/2000
On the January installment of Transit Transit, The feature about the Transit Museum, Gabrielle Schubert told of the big renovation of the museum and that the museum cars would be "spuced up".
I wonder what does she mean by that? They certainly don't need a repaint job. Perhaps install the original maps in the cars.
Bill Newkirk
Oh the plans we have. Just wait and see.
I like it, I like it!!! Now it's time to get down to the business of restoring cars... With the Lo-Vs and D-Types on the disabled list, having the SMEE Museum train fill in is definitely the right idea. Plus, the Corporation can make some money and use that towards the AB Standard Restoration, and Repairs of the Lo-Vs.
-Stef
Trust me, You will smile.
(Did you get my E-Mail?)
I got it...
-Stef
Well, gee, thanks for keeping us all in suspense ;)
(I didn't get your e-mail ;)
--Mark
01/14/2000
MARK,
I think Gabrielle Schubert was referring to the museum cars on display in the museum. Unless there is something we don't know yet.
Bill Newkirk
I was told by a friend that there are parts missing from the cars. If you could put them back, they might be able to run again. Rolling stock on the way out of the Museum? I've been missimg from the Museum for a while... It's time to get back there. I expect the cars to travel to Pitkin Yard for storage. Car G may be stored separately due to security concerns (The car would be stored at either the Coney Island or 207th St Shops).
-Stef
Believe it or not, Tom (and others) 5760, 6239, 6609, and 9306 were supposed to leave the Museum 2 years ago for an Open House held at Westchester Yard in the Bronx. They would have been used to ferry the visitors around the yard and to the shop where tours were being held. This day the Lo-Vs were working the Mainline to Hunts Point. Imagine that, two Museum trains out and running. That would have been great. The SMEE's didn't come out because the Museum had a previous engagement with photographers in a photo shoot (which means money), and the entire plan was canned. As a substitute, 6895 was bought out of dead storage and spent the day working with 4 mainline R36s. R12 #5782 and R14 #5871 were transferred up to Westchester Yard from Coney Island, but weren't used.
You can't bring 6688 back down without paying charges of having her shipped which would be somewhere about $5000. That's out of the question. I think we'd get bored up at Branford without having this car to play with. 6895, meanwhile, is unofficially a Museum Car. The car was supposed to be worked on, and restored to her former glory.
I don't know how many R17s are still intact, motors and all. I'm uncertain of this. I believe only 6609 and 6895 are the sole survivors unless someone knows of other R17s that are still out there. Don't count the cars being pulled by diesel locomotives, as they have no working equipment anymore. I'm just referring to the motor cars.
Will an excursion take place in the future? We'll see. It might be the right time since the Redbirds are on the way out.
-Stef
Branford is not averse to the idea of our cars coming back
to NY for short or even long periods. Look at G at the
Transit Museum. Unfortunately, when it comes to running fantrips
with public on board, the costs and complexity go WAY up because
of our liability if someone should get hurt on or near our car,
not to mention coverage for damage to the car itself.
Of late, the Transit Museum has not been in to running fan trips.
I was peripherally involved in the last two ERA fan trips (the
R-10 and the R-30 farewell trips) and we just broke even on
a $45/person fare. The TA has a lot of rules which wind up
translating into a lot of OT, and that has to be paid for.
Can anyone help?
I'm in the process of building my page for the LIRR and need a place where I can find information on each line and anything for Penn Station(there's a surprising lack of online resources for today's Penn Station-I wonder why).
Bob Anderson, I know you have a LIRR page. What's the address?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
The address for my website is http://www.lirrhistory.com
Also, there's a website for Lorraine Diehl's book "The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station at http://members.aol.com/pennsy/
Just figured I'll tell you while there is a commercial on that if you're on the East Coast you're missing the History Channel show on the NYC Subways!!!!!!
I watched the last half hour, but I'd seen it before. It's SUBWAY, The Empire Beneath New York's Streets. It was produced by Transit Gloria Mundi Productions in association with A&E Networks (1994).
It's available from A&E, or from TGM (AFAIK) I have a copy, bought at the BSM Gift Shop in 1995. Since TGM is located in Baltimore, the producer (Carl Schultz) delicered the copies to us.
The A&E Home Video number is A&E-10044
Same as Dan, I caught about half of it.
They used some realy old film that was in bad shape ... the good news is that it's now saved forever. e.g. several shots of those little steam engines pulling El cars & other wood/el cars. Also some quick shots of various Els comming down, i.e. being removed.
Mr t__:^)
Who did the narration on it? Was it the one that was on A&E a few years back, and ended with the music Take the A Train?
Narrator is Jack Perkins. There is about 10 minutes of extra footage on the PURCHASED A&E tape. Included are some standups by Perkins at the Transit Museum, providing introductions and transitions.
MISSING from the tape: Twenty minutes of commercials!! Commercial Television only provides you with 40 minutes (or less) of entertaiment per hour.
BTW: History Channel is owned by A&E. You will see a lot of cross-pollination of programs.
----------------------
[[Subway: Empire Beneath New York's Streets
Item Number: AAE-10044
Price: $19.95
50.00 minutes
Beneath the fierce commotion on the streets of the Big
Apple lies an astonishing network of tunnels,
turnstiles and technology. Subway boldly descends
into this extraordinary labyrinth to find what really
makes the wheels of this underground empire turn.
A subterranean control tower houses a startling mix
of antique technology side-by-side with the
ultra-new. A ride aboard the mysterious "money
train" divulges the financial secrets of the system.
Experimental cars, subway disasters, construction
miracles, greedy financiers they're all part of the
brute legend of the world's largest subway system.]
http://store.aetv.com/cgi-bin/ae.storefront/0/Ext/OutsideFrame/UT/32/Search/transit
It's basically a re-edited version of a show called "Empire Beneath the Streets", which first aired about 5 years ago on A&E. It's not exactly the best documentary about this subject out there.
Re-edited in what way? Was any additional stuff added? If I have the original version, will I miss anything by not seeing this version?
Alan Glick
Re-edited as in CUT. As has been posted by someone else in another piece of this thread, your best bet (if all you have is a taped-off-the-air version) is to spend $19.95 on the commercial copy, which has ten minutes of additional footage not seen on the air.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I taped this program off the air when it originally ran some years ago. The version I taped does include those Perkins spots at the Transit Museum. Am I still missing something?
Alan Glick
I think so, but I'm not sure. The full tape runs 50 minutes - I suspect that if you time your tape, eliminating commercials, you'll come up with about 43 minutes if it was taped several years ago, 38-40 if it was taped today (commercials and station promo have run a minimum of 8.5 minutes per half hour in recent years and can run up to 11, although I think the History Channel limits themselves to 10).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just checked my copy. It's 46 minutes 35 seconds. I eliminated the commercials and the "Time Machine" intros and outros. Time Machine was the name of the series on A&E that showed this program when I taped it.
Fast forwarding through this show reminded me what a great program it is. Great archival footage. I liked the way they used animation to show the building of the subway and the els. Also, what other transit documentary mentions and shows locomotives of The Brooklyn, Flatbush, and Coney Island Railway (am I giving away my obsession?)?
On the same tape I recorded "Trolley: The Cars that Built our Cities" Made by the same group (I think). Good show too, but I think "Subway..." is a bit better.
Alan Glick
Yes, both are productions of Transit Gloria Mundi. Looks like you've got an early enough release so that you're not missing much if at all. The trolley video, though, is significantly longer in the commercial version than any cut of it that has ever aired - it runs 59 minutes, IIRC. Surprisingly enough, I too originally recorded both off the air, on the same tape! But then I bought both a while later so I've recycled the original one.
Obsession? What obsession?!?!?!?! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also taped yesterday's History Channel episode. Wait till my wife finds out I taped over "All My Children"!!!!!!!!
I also taped yesterday's History Channel episode. Wait till my wife finds out I taped over "All My Children"!!!!!!!!
He He HE! I also used a casette my wife was using. I have since taken the subway tape out of the VCR and put another tape in. That way I don't have to worry about it getting erased.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm just following up on Dave's suggestion of meeting on Saturday April 29th out in Coney Island. This could be an informal get together, or a more structured SubTalk Event. Planning something on this date would not preclude people doing things on a later date or even meeting before that date.
Anyway,if anyone would be interested in meeting on that day, you can e-mail me with some ideas of what you would like to do. My own thoughts are:
1. As far as amusement rides go, I might consider going on the Carousel, but not on a moving horse.
2. If encouraged, I might gather about 100 of my most inane and silly posts of the last 5 months and do a public reading. People are encouraged to bring pies and ripe tomatoes as I have a need to be publicly humiliated.
3. If encouraged, I might stay away from the event, and allow others to have a serious day of discourse.
[2. If encouraged, I might gather about 100 of my most inane and silly
posts of the last 5 months and do a public reading. People are
encouraged to bring pies and ripe tomatoes as I have a need to be
publicly humiliated.]
heypaul, I just might oblige you with a couple of well-placed eye-pokes or whacks to the head while spouting a few "Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuks." I think that'd add to the flavor of your reading. ;-)
LOL
Doug aka BMTman
Why, soitanly!!
ROTF
Does anybody have any objections to starting the tour around 3 PM?
Mornings are a better start for me. I'd like the entire day to tour, too.
01/13/2000
Since everybody is all excited about Sunday's (1/16) Polo Grounds shuttle encore tour that bring up the following question.
There was a station at Sedgewick Ave in the Bronx. What happened to Sedgewick Avenue ?? Was is swallowed up by the Major Deegan ?
ALSO: For those attending this Sunday, observe the following:
1) Wear not so nice clothes, either way you're going to get dirty.
2) Bring a GOOD flashlight. On the first tour, only a couple or people brought flashlights, everybody bring a good one and not a penlight either.
3) Bring gloves, since some climbing up and down catwalks are necessary.
4) Wear sturdy shoes. Sneakers are a no-no.
5) When observing the tunnel, also lood down and be aware of tripping hazards. There are no tracks or ties, just ballast.
6) It would be good to have abuddy system instead of wandering off. It's good to have someone hold a flashlight when you're focusing your camera on a rusted signal case.
Other than we should have a good day. Se you there !!
Check upcoming events for details
Bill Newkirk
Since everybody is all excited about Sunday's (1/16) Polo Grounds shuttle encore tour that bring up the following question.
There was a station at Sedgewick Ave in the Bronx. What happened to Sedgewick Avenue ?? Was is swallowed up by the Major Deegan ?
No, its right below the Deegan.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Your photo is utterly fascinating - I never knew the platforms had survived. What was your vantage point?
Your photo is utterly fascinating - I never knew the platforms had survived. What was your vantage point?
Although I was part of the group that took the walking tour in 1974, I did not take the photo. I believe it was taken from the Deegan pedestrian overpass. There's a walking tour of the PG Shuttle this Sunday beginning at 11 AM at the 167th St. station NB platform on the 4 Train. Join the group and see it all for yourself. You won't be disappointed. BTW, those platforms are still there.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thank you for the info. Unfortunately I cant go on the tour but I look forward to reading the inevitable posts! Knowing what to look for is half the battle on these "archaeological expeditions". The most interesting thing about this hobby is....its always interesting. No one can ever possibly know it all.
Thank you for the info. Unfortunately I cant go on the tour but I look forward to reading the inevitable posts! Knowing what to look for is half the battle on these "archaeological expeditions". The most interesting thing about this hobby is....its always interesting. No one can ever possibly know it all.
Unfortunately I can't go on the tour either. I'm 1300 miles away in the Miami area. I did it in 1974 and I would love to see it again. I was so curious about the last tour that I waited in anticipation for those that went to come back and describe what they saw. I also waited in anticipation for their photos to be put online. I have never been in the tunnel, as that was sealed 25 years ago, but I was on the platforms of Sedgwick and Jerome-Anderson. Jerome-Anderson has become a garbage dump, literally. There pics on 2 sites, nycsubway.org and my NYC TRANSIT site. Those on nycsubway.org are current. Those on NYC TRANSIT are from 1974. check out the pics on both sites.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[There was a station at Sedgewick Ave in the Bronx. What happened to Sedgewick Avenue ??
Was is swallowed up by the Major Deegan ? ]
If you are asking about Sedgwick [ no second "e"] Avenue itself, rather than the remains of the station (which have been amply documented), the service road on the northbound side of the Deegan still carries that name. At 167th St. it becomes a two-way street. It continues to run alongside the Deegan until just before Tremont Ave., where the bridge (overpass) to the River Park Towers complex and Roberto Clemente State Park is. A this point Sedgwick Ave. and the Major Deegan part company. Sedgwick rises to a higher elevation, and some buildings appear between the two roads. The Deegan's service road assumes the name Cedar Avenue here, and continues to Fordham Road (although somewhat before Fordham, some buildings pop up between the Deegan and Cedar as well).
North of Fordham Rd., Sedgwick Ave. becomes a wide four-lane street. That street and the Deegan then come back together, but before they do, Sedgwick again branches off to higher ground. What appears to be its continuation takes on the name Bailey Avenue. Bailey and the Deegan then run side by side, at one point separated only by a fence, to Van Cortlandt Park South. Sedgwick Ave. continues on its own path a bit to the east, finally coming to an end at Mosholu Parkway.
Where Sedgwick and Bailey aves. meet is the begining or end of Bailey ave. (depending on your direction of travel.) if you stay to your right (going NB) Sedgwick continues to Mosholu Pkwy. Stay to your left and you take Bailey ave. which ends at Van Cortland Park south.
How about Sedgwick Ave. by Yankee Stadium? Does the north side come up from under the Major Deegan? If so, what about the south side? I know on the southbound Deegan there is an exit for the "Bronx Terminal Market"? I think it takes you on to Sedgwick Ave.
01/14/2000
Thanks for clearing up the Sedgwick Ave. mystery. Another question, about that black & white photo by Hal Smith that was posted last month. Showing the 155th St station with 2 car flivvers?, looking across the river to the Bronx there seems to be an elevated roadway running where the Major Deegan is now. Or was that the Deegan? Photo was taken in the mid 1950's.
Saw that photo of the 1974 Steve Zabel tour and the Deegan overlaps the Sedgwick Ave station. If you attend Sundays tour, you'll see a portal where the station ends and the Deegan overlaps. Any input on this mystery?
Bill Newkirk
Anyone have any information on the Sedgwick Ave. Station on the Spuyten Duyvil & Port Morris Branch N.Y.C & the Harlem River RR, from back in the 30's? Today the Harlem Line of Metro North. It was located right next to the Sedgwick Av. El Station.
01/14/2000
Why didn't I think of this in the beginning! I went to my car's glove box and retrieved a copy of a New York City street map from AAA. It seems that Sedgwick Ave does indeed exist today but parallels the Major Deegan's northbound side as a service road. But when approaching Macomb's Park, Sedgwick Ave then hooks east and travels a block or two.
It seems that Sedgwick today doesn't come near the old Polo Grounds shuttle station but, may have been scaled back when the Major Deegan was built. So that should clear up any mysteries. In any event, see y'all on Sunday.
Bill Newkirk
As of now, I found 5 AEM7s with Acela painting schemes. They are 904, 907, 912, 914, and 934.
All except 914 are changed from NortheastDirect painting schemes. I am especially surprised at 907 and 912. 907 began its NortheastDirect painting scheme last May, and then changed to Acela painting scheme last October; 912 began its NortheastDirect painting scheme last September, then changed to Acela painting scheme last December. I feel like some paint was wasted.
Does anybody see other Acela AEM7s other than these five AEM7s? Thanks a lot for your help.
AEM7 916 is currently remanufactured. What is the progress now?
Chaohwa
I believe they are rebuilding the AEM-7 fleet into AC traction units. Why, I have no idea - the HHL-8s are a disaster (I believe the French units they're based on are even more so), and the AEM-7's a pretty darn good locomotie, despite it's age and tendancy to break down (though I don't think they're that bad, and that's likely a maintenance issue anyway)
Of course, that's typical "If it ain't broke, fix it till it is" thinking.
after recieving that wonderful audio tape of the philadelphia BROAD STREET LINE 1928 car and &
the R 1 - R 9 cc & L pre world war two audio tape from paul pkronenberg
i found a nice audio tape i made catching the CHICAGO cta cars from soledier filed past cubs and white sox
stadiums !! like paul pkronenberg i audiotaped it !!! thank you vry much sir !!!!!............
i sent him a railfan vidieo of the number # 7 flushing for free he sent me his tape too !! ( his audio tape )
maybe someone else tapes audio sounds of subway trains also ! i will offer mine too !!! ( free ) ....
as long as you dont snd me harrassing and or racist e mail and posts !!!
CHICAGO C.T.A. AUDIO TAPE 90 MINUTES LONG BOTH SIDES downloaded into digital master....
free!! salaamallah@yahoo.com
note ; please dont bother to snd me racist or harrassing e mail save your time !!!
IN CAPITAL LETTERS AS THE SAYING GOES PLEASE STICK TO RAIL TRANSIT ISSUES ONLY!!
OFF TOPIC AND HARRASSING POSTS WILL BE REMOVED ETC.. etc.... you know the rest
cant some of you remain on topic please ???
ERCTMIURISTCGMKDRT;'GRTKXB,L'FT HBMTGTY9PUWE80TYRUGEV5P GMW50=GUSERT
WV5,0[TIWV,9-GIEUSRT9P45SERP BYWER5M,USTV590G,UEHSDR0[ HBE46M,PQ3 5G
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CW9FGTMUASERCGTIW3RMFGT;C4M8QWYE45Q GT85ERCVTMW8C0345UCTQI3ITOQ45,UT0
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
SERKCTU,IP,UQ345CT90=QU,PIRUQ3490RT45,URTQ45IPTQ45,UTI345UTC,45IT,U4IO
ERTO'GUIQ,W45FGOQWC45T945IPCMUFI945U804I9PERF7CTIO4F,UCRI4UER3FRU45WRG
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SALAAM ALLAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WARPED WILLIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP BUGGING US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ON SUBTALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT RAILFAN WINDOWS ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOT IT???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
im sorry i dont under stand your last post MR WHO WANTS TO KNOW?? speak american - english
on your posts it wil make you a nicer person RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm back in Boston from Long Beach, CA. It was nice to leave 72 degree California for five inches of snow and 14 degrees :-)
I just received a message that AMTRAK is now sponsoring Traffic and Weather Together on WCBS Newsradio-88 three times each weekday. It is at 6:48am, 10:48am, and 5:48pm. Supposedly there will be an adjacent ad for ACELA. Since I can't pick up the station here in Boston during the day, perhaps someone can listen in and see what the ad says? The ad will probably change from time-to-time; the sponsorship runs through mid-April. Unfortunately, it doesn't run on weekends, so I won't be sponsored by ACELA! I'll be there next weekend and will see what additional info I can get.
I hope the ad will be aggessive. People are fed up with the airlines. Then again you don't want to raise service expectations that tenured civil servants are unlikely to meet.
Are you going to join us Sunday or will you be on the air Sunday morning?
--Mark
Unfortunately, I'm on the air until noon... then must zip back to Boston. But I'll try to bring you great riding weather!
Is there someone knowledgable about the terminal who would like to lead the tour on April 29?
Dave asked if there is someone knowledgable about Stillwell Terminal to guide the tour. When a group of people from SubTalk toured Stillwell a couple of months ago, one of the people who posts here who works as Station Agent showed people around. I'm sure if there were several people who would want to get together on April 29, that this person might be consider doing it again if time and working schedule and an honorarium of about $5000 could be established. So far, I have gotten feedback from 4 people about the trip. There seems to be interest in a walking tour of the amusement area in addition to Stillwell Terminal. Mark suggested going out on a couple of BMT lines to and from DeKalb. Dave, I think you suggested maybe a run up to the Bronx. Then there seems to be a question about time. Gary suggested starting about 3PM, Dave is an early person like myself. I suppose we could have a two section sort of event. Maybe a bunch of early birds doing some serious riding on the rails, and then maybe meeting up at Stillwell later in the day. Nobody expressed any interest in listening to yours truly reading some of his most asinine posts. I'm just dying for the opportunity to insult people's intelligence in person.
Anyway, we are more than 3 months away from the proposed date, so we have a lot of time to tailor a day that will live on in infamy.(where have I heard that expression?)
My objection isn't a matter of not wanting to start early. It's the problem of the day being a Saturday. We own a retail store and are open on Saturday morning. That's why I always prefer Sunday. Anyone for April 30?
Come on Gary---- This is getting complicated.
I have the ideal solution. Let's make it on April 31--- that's a day everyone has open.
April 30th is too close to May Day. I'm entering my R-9 motorman's cab in the annual parade down Red Square in Moscow.
April 30 will mark 33 years to the day since my first visit to Coney Island AND my first experience with the R-1/9s. Not to mention taking a D train all the way to Stillwell Ave. when it still ran on the Culver line.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Haven't keep up with you lately, and since you were the guy who gave me my name, that is not excusable. I like the fact that you keep anniversaries in your memory bank. I do the same, and I have a yarn for you. We always rode the West End when we went to the beach or our grandparents' house from the time I can remember. We were in South Brooklyn around Pacific Street one afternoon in early 1947 and my Dad was in a rush to get where we were going ( I don't remember where) and we took the first train that came. I remember that light green #4 of the Sea Beach and we took it all the way to
Avenue U. where my father's parents lived, though we were not going to visit them this time. A bad move on my Dad's part. I fell in love with the Sea Beach instantly, and from that time on we never took another train anywhere in that vicinity because it would have led to
a temper tantrum with me. It was Saturday, April 19, 1947. I will never forget that.
I can elaborate further on the events of April 30, 1967.
Coney Island was indeed in full swing that spring day. We ended up taking a ride on the Swiss Sky Ride (at least I think that's what it was called), and walked along the boardwalk out to the pier. One guy who was fishing caught a crab.
As we were heading back to the subway, we passed that ride which goes arouns in a cirsle in one direction first, then another (Super Himalaya, perhaps?). I rode on one of those as a kid before we left Indiana and hated it. Anyway, the operator came on the PA and asked, "Want to go faster?" Everyone replied, "YES!", then he asked, "Want to go slower?" "NOOOOO!!!!!" I would have said just the opposite.
We ended up returning to Manhattan on the BMT, and here's where it gets fuzzy. We boarded a train of R-32s, and since it wound up at 4th Ave., it had to be either an N or TT. There was another train of R-32s on the adjacent track, and its blue doors were staring right at me. I think I just answered my own question: that other train was on our left, which would have been either the West End or Brighton platform, so we must have been on an N. (Was the train arrangement the same back then - Sea Beach, Brighton, Culver, West End?) Anyway,I just had to know if our train had those same blue doors. Well, when we reached the 4th Ave. line, my folks decided to get off for some reason, and since I didn't know the ins amd outs of the subway yet, my sister and I followed. We changed to an RR for the rest of the trip, and as our train of R-32s left the station, I looked and, sure enough, it had blue doors.
They could have been R-11's, and from what you said it was a Sea Beach train you rode.
No, they were definitely R-32s. You couldn't miss the square windows on the doors. I never saw the R-11s in revenue service. The RR train we ended up on was a consist of R-27/30s. We got off at Times Square and exited to the street to walk back to the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The maze of passageways at Times Square was something we would experience later.
Want to know a secret? I was an R-32 fan before I became an A/R-10 fan, and to this day I associate the R-32s with the N. I liked those cars from the moment I boarded them for the first time in 1965. I may be an IND fan because of my fondness for the A, but the Southern Division is still very special to me, and the N will always rank up there. I sincerely hope it will return to the Broadway express tracks in a few years.
You hope it returns to the express tracks? The very thought that it is now a local just contorts me. The Sea Beach was synonomous with the word express. Come on TA, get your crap together.
Express on Broadway, Express on 4th Ave but on the Sea Beach it ran LOCAL. Now the BRIGHTON had both a LOCAL and EXPRESS, and even the Local ran Express in Manhatten. Think About it Arcadia Fred my good buddy
You think you got me, don't you. Well Brighton Beach Bob from 1949 to 1953 we used ride the Sea Beach Express EXPRESS to Coney Island. It made only two other stops as I recall once if left the tunnel after 59th Street. It did run express in Brooklyn for a time.
Right now, the only reason the N is running local in Manhattan (and believe me, it galls me just as much) is the ongoing Money Pit, aka Manhattan Bridge, fiasco. If it terminated at 57th St. the way it used to, you could switch it over to express just before Prince St. Since the N now continues to Astoria, it doesn't make sense because it would have to merge with the R, with potential delays.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Your note makes a lot of sense and you're probably right in your reasoning. It's good to know that someone else shares my concern about this. It's strange, though, because you live in Colorado and I in California, yet we both are ticked off about a state of affairs that should probably not bother us anymore in the least, yet does. It goes to show just how rabid some of us railrans are when it comes to our favorite cars. I remember your favorite is the "A" train but your first ride was on the Sea Beach back in 1965. I also know you gave me my website nickname. Have a great day, and let's hear from the rest of you Sea Beach fanatics.
I should point out that while the very first subway train I ever rode on was an N, it was from 36th St. and 4th Ave. to 34th St. in Manhattan. While I don't recall seeing an N sign on the front end of that train of shiny new R-32s, I vivdly remember the green backlit "57th St." side destination sign. The T ran to Astoria back then on weekdays, but it didn't run during middays. In a way, I wish we had been on the BMT during rush hours because I might have been able to at least catch a glimpse of a Triplex train. They were literally in their final days when we were in the city in July of 1965; in fact, their last day of revenue service was the same day we left for home.
This has nothing to do with the TA
Might I make a suggestion for your Stillwell tour? Meet at 34th St. and 6th Ave. IND SB platform at 9 AM. Take an F to Stillwell. Take a B to Pacific. Take an N back to Stillwell. Tour the terminal and Coney Island. Ride the Wonder Wheel, Cyclone, and maybe some other rides. Have hot dogs at Nathan's. Take the D back to Manhattan. That way, you will cover all 4 Coney Island lines, the terminal, Coney Island, the rides and Nathan's. While you're on the D at the tail end of your trip, if you have time, take a ride on the Franklin Shuttle.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"... if you have time, take a ride on the Franklin Shuttle."
That's like saying, if you have time, exhale after you've inhaled.
<< Might I make a suggestion for your Stillwell tour? Meet at 34th St. and 6th Ave. IND SB platform at 9 AM. Take an F to Stillwell. Take a B to Pacific. Take an N back to Stillwell. Tour the terminal and Coney Island. Ride the Wonder Wheel, Cyclone, and maybe some other rides. Have hot dogs at Nathan's. Take the D back to Manhattan. That way, you will cover all 4 Coney Island lines, the terminal, Coney Island, the rides and Nathan's. While you're on the D at the tail end of your trip, if you have time, take a ride on the Franklin Shuttle. >>
That sounds like a GREAT idea! Is Astroland open that that time of year, though? I didn't know the park opened in late April.
Dave: Sounds like a plan. But who is going to organize this? I'm stuck out here in California and have no way to do so. But I'm getting antsy and, so, please, someone get the ball rolling.
Let's have a few more responses (e-mail me, please, as I don't get to check this site every day) of those who plan on attending and I'll pass along the information to Dave Pirman. I'll keep an e-mail list and send along any updated information to all potential attendees.
I suggest we adopt Fred's itinerary, to wit, on April 29 (Saturday):
<< Meet at 34th St. and 6th Ave. IND SB platform at 9 AM.
[If you live in Brooklyn, you can join us at Stillwell rather than 34th, if you prefer.]
Take an F to Stillwell. Take a B to Pacific. Take an N back to Stillwell. Tour the terminal and Coney Island. Ride the Wonder Wheel, Cyclone, and maybe some other rides.
[Assuming the rides are open and we have the time]
Have hot dogs at Nathan's. Take the D back to Manhattan. That way, you will cover all 4 Coney Island lines, the terminal, Coney Island, the rides and Nathan's. While you're on the D at the tail end of your trip, if you have time, take a ride on the Franklin Shuttle. >>
The start time is negotiable. Earlier is fine with me, particularly if we're going to out-and-back on the N/B/F before lunch . If anyone knowledgable about the terminal and its history can join the tour, it would be greatly appreciated.
Just thought I'd mention: Member's Day at Branford Electric Railway is also April 29th. Hence I, among others, will be at Branford rather than Coney Island.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/17/2000
Well this a good sign. There will be fan trips, train meets and other special festivities on this date (4/29). All those intersetd in the Stillwell tour just your eyes and ears tuned to anything that might coincide on that day.
Anon_E_mouse: Nice meeting you and your son on PGT#2.
Bill Newkirk
April 29 is a preliminary date for Member's Day at Branford/Shore
Line. What exactly is this tour on April 29th? Is it a TA open
house?
01/18/2000
Close, but no lineswitch! A possible Stillwell terminal tour is talked about before the proposed rebuilding gets underway.
Bill Newkirk
I will be flying up from Fl for Members Day this year. It will be nice to meet some of the other subtalkers while I am there and better yet get in some controller time.
Cheers
I just checked the Daily News archives. Astroland opened on March 27 last year, so it looks like the April date is safe. I still want to do the June date on a Sunday. It should also give us warmer weather. Fred, which would you prefer? After the turnout for PGS-2, I'm confident that we could do both dates.
Final question - where's a good place to park? I'm coming from the
Philly area and am thinking of parking near the Path in Hoboken, but
there's gotta be a better way, right?
There should be ample street parking near the area since it's a Sunday and it IS near Yankee Stadium. If you're not planning on leaving it for very long, you should be OK parking in that vicinity.
I think some people parked on the Grand Boulevard & Concourse and walked or took a train from there.
--Mark
I wonder if there'll be an open house at E 180th street shops to introduce the R142 to the public before they're released to revenue passenger service? would the Transit Museum have any info?
Good question. I don't believe the Museum is doing anything special, but I could always find out. As I recall with the arrival of the R110A and B in 1992, they were on display at the Museum. It makes me wonder if they would do something like that again...
-Stef
DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY MAJOR SERVICE CHANGE THAT WILL TAKE PLACE IN LIKE A MONTH OR YEARS FROM NOW??? SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IN FULL DETAIL IM TRYING TO DRAW UP A MAP OF THE FUTURE AS A PROJECT FOR MY HISTORY CLASS. ANY LITTLE BIT OF HELP WILL BE VERY HELPFULL.. THANKS
1) Don't type in caps lock
2) 63 Street tunnel connection. A tunnel will connect the 63 Street tunnel with the Queens Boulevard Line (express and local) between Queens Plaza and 36 Street and 21 Street-Queensbridge
3) Closure of Manhattan Bridge north side and reopening of the south side. Service plans are unknown.
Is the Sea Beach N coming back online? I want to sea that Bridge-Canal Street Station used again, its pitiful letting it stand there, becoming a cave with all of the Stalagmite/Tites growing there.
it would be great to see the n train back on the bridge again it would even better to all service to be running the way it suppossed to be running and means even using old stations and tunnels.
please excuse me from all the mistakes that iam making. im at work and its hard to type and keep a look out for my boss. hahahahahaha
So you're at 'work', huh. Then why do have the same e-mail address as the 'student' posting under the name of R BROADWAY AND 4TH AVE LOCAL??
What other names do you post under, my creepy friend??????
I just read an AP report on the www.1010wins.com website. Apparently the TA has a new subway simulator which it uses to train new operators. It is a small booth with 2 handles, one for the brakes and one for speed. There is a buton for the horn, a speedomoter and a brake pressure gauge. A screen simulates the view an operator would have on the tracks. The report says that so far 860 people have used the simulator, both new operators and veterans.
Has anyone out there heard of this or has anyone acutally used it and how gooad a devise is it?
Yesterday they had a report on NY1 about it. It is a simulation of the #4 train. And it looked fun. I want to get me one.
How much do you think it costs? Perhaps if we get several hundred of us together we can all purchase one and take turns using it. After all, we're adults and I'm sure we're beyond fighting over whose turn it is right?
If that dosen't work, perhaps someone will make a computer game that does something similiar which we can all afford by ourselves. Of course, then we will be fighting with our children over whose turn it is.
There is a Japanese Playstation game that is essentially a train/subway simulator, documented on Scott Moore's NETransit site (on its own page).
An article on the MTA's simulator also appeared in today's Times-- it's on their website ("Hopes for a New Kind of Subway"), but without the photo that appeared in the print edition, which didn't really show much of the simulator anyway.
I wish Sony or somebody would come out with a device similar to an AAR controller/ 26C Brake valve combo interfaced with software that simulates the operation of a BIG @$$ 150 CAR FREIGHT TRAIN Now that would be fun.
"How much do you think it costs? Perhaps if we get several hundred of us together we can all purchase one and take turns using it. After all, we're adults and I'm sure we're beyond fighting over whose turn it is right?"
Of course we're all adults. I'm even willing to go the extra mile and assume the annoying burden of keeping the simulator at my house.
"If that dosen't work, perhaps someone will make a computer game that does something similiar which we can all afford by ourselves. Of course, then we will be fighting with our children over whose turn it is."
Fighting with our children? Of course not. I paid for it so it's my toy---I mean, my simulator.
Alan Glick
"How much do you think it costs? Perhaps if we get several hundred of us together we can all purchase one and take turns using it. After all, we're adults and I'm sure we're beyond fighting over whose turn it is right?"
--"Official space helmet on, oh Captain Video"-- E.N.
For what it's worth Guys/girls,
here in London for the" new" tube stock (1992 and above) simulators exist for Central Line stock (1992)
Jubilee Line Stock (1996) and Northern Line stock (1995) and although
"hands on" driver training still takes place, many hours is spent on the simulator for new train operators. Any other transit systems stateside have them...???
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
And if you are in London, visit the Transport Museum in Covent Garden. Three simple simulators, using old tube stock, are there to be "driven".
Oh that thing! I was down at the training center last year
and I played with both of the simulators. The good news is
all the authentic handles etc. are there (although on the
R62 simulator, which is really an R68 cab, the lack of air pressure
in the brake stand took away from the realism). The bad news is
that it is done byj adjusting the frame rate of canned video.
When I got to a timered section, I just kept it on the post and
of course all the timers cleared! The simulated train also responded
unrealistically to certain insane actions, such as reversing the
motors at 40 MPH!
At a million dollers per unit, I think you need to get three. One for the standard dual handle cars, one for the R-44/R-46 and one for the R-142/R-143s. As for me, I plan to try it ASAP but I'm more anxious to try try the M-1 simulator at Hillside.
Is operating a MU like operating brakes on a car? Is there a LAG position? What are the brake positions? I seen engineers hold down the dead man with one hand and I seen one guy hold it down with his thumb and pointer finger. I guess you get used to it after a while.
Is the deadman different on the diesels?
Anyone want to see the actual video used for the Port Jefferson Branch simulator can see it at the Long Island Children's Museum on Stewart Av in Garden City just W/O the Roosevelt Field enterance. They have a mockup of a diesel cab, but its for little kids so its not a simulator and not realistic but the tape is the actual tape from Hicksville, left past the Divide Tower, all the way to Port Jefferson. One word of advice. Bring a kid, preferably pre-school age or you will really stand out!!!!!
I've used it. It works pretty well, but it'll work better once the "motion" part of the package arrives and is installed. It's hard to get a good feel for what you're doing without motion, and without authentic motor winding sounds (which apparently won't be part of the experience even after the upgrade).
The system currently uses video of various lines, on laserdis. There's a bank of laserdisc machines, so the system can jump from one disc to the next. The R-142/142A simulator will use CGI (Computer Generated Imaging) instead of video.
The "cabs" have two controllers, only one of which can be seen and used at a time. One is the traditional two-handled controller, and the other is the cineston type. The "train" seems to perform much as a no-field-shunt train would, and the system can adjust to car types (R-42, R-62, and R-68/68A are programmed in; there may be others, but I can't recall).
My class of TO's was the first to incorporate the simulator into training. The mass opinion of the simulator -- the millions spent on it would have been better used to build a track with platforms solely for training purposes.
The simulator is a mockup of an R-62/R-68 cab. The front vision glass is replaced by an HDTV screen about 2'6" away, the side glass by a smaller screen at a very strange angle that comes on about 200' outside of a station and goes off when you leave the station. As has been noted, there is no motion effect, the brake valve is not charged (ie no air pressure to pull against) and the view is only the original time whenthe film was shot -- no matter how fast you go, the timers always clear; if you go slow, so does everything else that's in motion. As a result, there is absolutely no 'feel' for operating. Unfortunately, that is how most TO's operate - by 'feel'.
The run for the IRT is a midnight trip on the 4 from Woodlawn to Utica. On the elevated portion it is very hard to tell which signals are yours and which belong to the cars down in the street ( We all kept slowing down for a red signal that was in the street - you couldn't tell until you were almost on top of it, because of the lack of depth perception). Because of the way it is programmed, the simulator only believes you made a perfect station stop if you stop in exactly the same place as the TO who operated during filming. As we all know, there is a little bit of leeway in where to stop the train. Once you're down in the tunnel, you're now faced with yelow and red signals that appear to be the same color from a distance, as do the greens and blue lights. To further confuse, the amber flourescents that mark some of the emergency exits also show up as red.
There are some areas where they can put in some digital effects to change conditions: snow on the elevated looks more like you just lost reception on your TV than real snow. It also doesn't accumulate or get the vision glass wet; smoke at Atlantic Ave looks pretty silly and only exists out the front - the side window is smoke-free. the best one is changing the signal in approach to 138/Grand Concourse. The signal on the right side is digitally changed from green to yellow, but the repeater on the opposite side isn't. This results in trains going BIE at signal mid-station ( which was changed to red when the approach went to yellow) and the TO having no idea why.
Its one saving grace is breakdowns. It is much easier trying to troubleshoot a problem when you are just learning here thaen it is to wait until you have a problem on the road and have to remember how to fix it.
Last evening I had the high of watching the building of the New York Subway on the History Channel. I mean HIGH! It went from the very beginning to today, and when I saw two pictures of the Sea Beach I literally jumped out of my chair. I saw a Sea Beach car in color that was in the Coney Island Yards, with #4 in front-and Coney Island listed to its right. Then I saw an "N" Train being sprayed. I have to tell you it made my day. When they mentioned the Sea Beach railroad being created in the late 1970's I gave out a loud whoop. Am I some kind of nut or what. How many of you saw the show? I hope those who did got a big a charge out of it as I did. And I would love to have those two pictures of the Sea Beach cars I saw. Good show.
Last evening I had the high of watching the building of the New York Subway on the History Channel. I mean HIGH! It went from the very beginning to today, and when I saw two pictures of the Sea Beach I literally jumped out of my chair. I saw a Sea Beach car in color that was in the Coney Island Yards, with #4 in front-and Coney Island listed to its right. Then I saw an "N" Train being sprayed. I have to tell you it made my day. When they mentioned the Sea Beach railroad being created in the late 1970's I gave out a loud whoop. Am I some kind of nut or what. How many of you saw the show? I hope those who did got a big a charge out of it as I did. And I would love to have those two pictures of the Sea Beach cars I saw. Good show.
Yep, it had to be one of the best train shows I ever saw also. I taped it. They had some nice movies of the Manhattan els that I never saw before. There were some pics of the malboner St. wreck that I never saw before also. Its too bad it wasn't a week-long miniseries, like the PBS thing that they aired a little while back.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I saw this a while ago and loved it. If I remember correctly, there's a sequence showing a 3-D animated representation of the lines as they criss-cross over and under each other from about Atlantic Ave to the East River. Each division was a different color. Also showed the LIRR. Was this done just for this show? Does this animation exist for the entire system? This would be a great simulator if one could be allowed to "drive" through it.
Alan Glick
We don t get the History channel in Hawaii, to educational, we just got A and E last year. I have been here 5 years, and the local cable company changed ownership 4 times, makes you wonder?
This show aired over five years ago on A & E , then was redone for history channel--the older version(Jack Perkins instead of Roger Mudd
0 was aavailable as a commercial videotape I have it.The ISBN 1-56501-351-4
the second line in the ISBN block 7 33961 10044 0 good lick
I saw this a while ago and loved it. If I remember correctly, there's a sequence showing a 3-D animated representation of the lines as they criss-cross over and under each other from about Atlantic Ave to the East River. Each division was a different color. Also showed the LIRR. Was this done just for this show? Does this animation exist for the entire system? This would be a great simulator if one could be allowed to "drive" through it.
Alan Glick
I remember on the program when they showed the criss-crossing at B'way and 34th St. and 6th Ave. That's got to be one of the most, if not the most complex criss-crossing of lines in the city.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There's an area in downtown Brooklyn around Flatbush and Atlantic which has the IND, IRT and BMT lines all crossing over/under each other. I'd say that area is much more complex.
I never understood why the IND built any subway line in this area. It's well served by BMT and IRT routes.
I never understood why the IND built any subway line in this area. It's well served by BMT and IRT routes.
Because the sole purpose of the IND was to duplicate service to drive the BMT and IRT out of business. The IND was Hylan's baby.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Maybe the elevated lines, but not the subway lines. The main dea was that they'd drive the private companies out of business and take over these lines. I don't see the smarts in competing directly with another line in which you're trying to gain control of.
Maybe the elevated lines, but not the subway lines. The main dea was that they'd drive the private companies out of business and take over these lines. I don't see the smarts in competing directly with another line in which you're trying to gain control of.
The BMT and IRT were competing with each other. The IND was looking to undermine both. Before I make any further comments on your post, I would need to know which IND stations on which line(s) you are talking about. Something tells me it has to do with the South Brooklyn line (F). The method to the City's madness was to capture the Culver Line. Although it happened after unification, it came to pass. The station or stations that you are thinking about on the IND may not seem to be in competition with a BMT or IRT subway, but with the South Brooklyn subway, their target was the Culver El.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If Chris is referring to the Atlantic Ave.-Flatbush Ave. area, the Fulton St. and Crosstown lines cut right through there. The South Brooklyn line misses it.
They were showing Herald Square at the time the IND was just built. You had the BMT, the new IND, the Hudson Tubes (now Path), the LIRR, the Pennsylvania RR, and the 6th Av El all converging at that one intersection. More than Atlantic & Flatbush.
They were showing Herald Square at the time the IND was just built. You had the BMT, the new IND, the Hudson Tubes (now Path), the LIRR, the Pennsylvania RR, and the 6th Av El all converging at that one intersection. More than Atlantic & Flatbush.
I don't remember if it was depicted or not, but what about the trolleys on the street? Also, they probably had them crossing each other - one on 6th Ave., one on Broadway, and 1 on 34th St. I know its impossible, but could you imagine 6 trolleys (2 going in each direction) and 8 trains 2 going in each direction) all winding up on the same level (street level), converging on the intersection all at the same time?
CRASH!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Streetcar service on 6th Ave. ended when subway construction began. The el remained in operation. When it was built, the 34th St. station was the most difficult engineering feat ever attempted anywhere.
If you liked the Manhattan El footage you should get "The Vanishing Els" a video sold at the transit museum. It is 3 tapes in one. The first part, the namesake, "The Vanishing Els" is an approx. 15 min documentary of the 3rd Av el made a couple of years before its closing. It is in the first person as if the el car itself is talking to you, telling its own story. It has alot of great footage of the el itself from the Bronx to S.Ferry, including the spur to the Bx. Zoo. The second part is a documentary called NYC Transit or something like that. Its a hodgepodge of NYC Subway footage. The scene of the interior of the R-10 on the History Channel film and a few other scenes was taken from that. The third part is about 15 minutes of out takes of the first part (the Vanishing EL) with a background of classical music.
I also love this tape. Of course, the best NYC transit tape of all time is that 11 minute short "The Third Avenue Elevated" Saw it at the Transit Museum years ago and had to have a copy. As no one had one for sale I went to the producers of the tape: AIM Media. They had it for $50. I had to have it so I bought it. Was the best $50 I ever spent. Worth a lot more than that for the sheer joy I got out of it time after time. Of course, you can get it for $20 now at the Transit Museum. If you have to have just one transit tape this is it. Trust me on this one, you'll be glad you did.
Alan Glick
If you liked the Manhattan El footage you should get "The Vanishing Els" a video sold at the transit museum. It is 3 tapes in one. The first part, the namesake, "The Vanishing Els" is an approx. 15 min documentary of the 3rd Av el made a couple of years before its closing. It is in the first person as if the el car itself is talking to you, telling its own story. It has alot of great footage of the el itself from the Bronx to S.Ferry, including the spur to the Bx. Zoo. The second part is a documentary called NYC Transit or something like that. Its a hodgepodge of NYC Subway footage. The scene of the interior of the R-10 on the History Channel film and a few other scenes was taken from that. The third part is about 15 minutes of out takes of the first part (the Vanishing EL) with a background of classical music.
How much is it? Can I order it over the phone or on the Internet? If so, what's their phone number and / or their URL?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Although I bought it at the Court St Transit Museum here is what it says on the box:Everything Video
P.O. Box 313
New Brunswick, NJ 08903
(908) 753-5826
1991 Everything Video
Although I bought it at the Court St Transit Museum here is what it says on the box:
Everything Video
P.O. Box 313
New Brunswick, NJ 08903
(908) 753-5826
1991 Everything Video
Thanx.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I saw it three times before, and this time, I taped it!!
DO U KNOW WHEN THEY R GONNA RUN THIS SHOW AGAIN I MISSED IT FOR THE 3RD TIME.
I saw it three times before, and this time, I taped it!!
DO U KNOW WHEN THEY R GONNA RUN THIS SHOW AGAIN I MISSED IT FOR THE 3RD TIME.
OK folks !! GET MAD !!!!!.......... when the R 142s first arives paint a large permanent "S" ............. scrap SCRAP!!!
on them !! they should arrive first at the S C R A P Y A R D S ....!!!!
in no more but less than 10 YEARS thats where they will be !!! """" JUNK""!! ( not even good scrap material )
What is your basis for saying this? Do you just like to be the pessimist to balance out others' enthusiasm?
There are some good design ideas in them - I think they have made some serious improvements and advancements - many of them I enjoy every day in the M-4s I ride to work. As with the M-4, I expect there will be bugs to work out at first with the R142s. That is the nature of high technology - yes, it is more complex, but bugs in electronics and software can be much easier to fix than the engineering flaws that can occur and are not high-tech-related. (Not always the case, but I'd say more often than not.)
Once the bugs are worked out, there's no reason a high-tech car cannot be more reliable than any other car.
And most high-tech parts do not wear out the way mechanical parts do. So there is even the potential for *greater* reliability.
The main factor in lifespan is the engineering that went into the structure and the low-tech mechanical parts. With those - it will just take time to see how reliable they are.
I have no reason yet to believe that these cars will be more or less reliable than any other car.
high tech more to go wrong- LOW TECH like these automobiles made after 1985 when the on board computer
dies youhave to by-pass it.... etc the good old saying is still true " THEY JUST DONT MAKE THINGS THE WAY THEY USED TO !!!
im sure it will run for about TEN YEARS.... then after that ???? ...... well !!!
ACUTALLY, Now I understand what you are saying, AND SO FREAKIN' WHAT!
Technology is changing everyday and it has to improve with time. You have to give these cars a chance, they are only but may 1-2 months old and they have barely ran. You can not judge what you are not over here to see like we are, I've been on these cars and seen them in test mode and quite frankly, WE ARE IN FOR A TREAT!
So Quit the Bashing, cause last time I check, the LACMTAs equipment aren't all that up to standard.
You've been told, act accordingly
Trevor Logan
sure freaking what !!! but dont expect the long service you got out of the REDBIRDS OR R-1-9 series r 10s aETC..
test modes dont tell the tue story !! 10 years do maint. time between repairs etc... computer breakdowns!!! etc.
Still you haven't really proven your point, it's really irrelivant to the subject. These cars will enter into real passengers service in April-May then the others will follow in the fall. So when the passenger service test is done, NOT IN TEST MODE, and they are running fine with now mechanical problems, beacuse rail computers have become advanced, I will make that trip to LA just to laugh in your face!
Trevor
TransiTALK
Excuse my spelling, I'm rushing a bit!
Trevor
i am rushing too sorry if i SPOILED THE NEW R 142s PARTY !!! i have my doubts they wil last 1/3 rd as long as the other good old subway cars did !! remember this is the taxpayers money and you dont need over complex systems just strong solid
simple funcitional parts not bells and whistles etc.....
Funny, that is exactly what people said about the M4s when they were just starting out. People did not think that they would last as long as the almond joys did. And I wonder what the subway buffs of 1958 said when the IRT redbirds replaced the Lo-Vs? Or when the B-IVs replaced the other Broad Street Cars? Or when the Almond Joys were just starting out in 1960? Or a whole bunch of other examples where rolling stock is replaced with newer vehicles. Whenever anything is replaced, there may be uneasiness.
first of all im from NYC scond of all i asked for specks and engineering data and facts to prove that
THE NEW R 142s ARE THE FINEST SUBWAY CAR EVER BUILT IN THE WORLD EVER !!
So far by design, the R142 cars sound a lot like the R46s or the M1s, cars of which I feel ARE the finest cars BUILT. Being an old school motorman operating equipment from AMUE to P-Wire, passenger comfort excelled with the M-1s and the original Rockwell trucks with air bag suspension, regardless of the casting problems incurred by the NYCTA in the '70s. AC motor technology exists on NJT Arrow cars today with the teething problems such as bearing failures worked out. Every new car will have "teething problems" at first but it doesn't make them a lemon. The R10s has problems with the equalizer trucks at first but that truck design is still in use on NYCTA cars eqipped with clasp type brakes with problems related to only the poorest inspection procedures. Although the disk brake concept didn't work out on the R32s, they do work GREAT on ALP44s and AEM7s and even the R110 came with a test car. You are a BIG BABY when it comes to railfan windows and do not want anyones point of view. My suggestion is to go to Naporano Iron and Metals, pay them for a piece of a rusting R26 front end and truck it back west. Or go visit the ones in that movie studio and make the producer an offer to buy one car. In my opinion, the R46 was the finest cars built with modern technology in mind and was disappointed to see the TA go back to the R10 concept when purchasing the R62-68 orders.
01/15/2000
Bill,
You say the R-142's should sound like the R-46's and MTA M-1's ? I don't think so, they have AC propulsion equipment, and AC propulsion equipment makes some wierd sounds. Ex.WMATA Rohr cars, SEPTA M-4's, R-110A & B's. Unless you mean something different.
Bill Newkirk
He said "By design" they sound alike. I.e., it's a whole new direction in train technology.
o k I & all of us will wait 10 YEARS I bet by then we will all see THEY DONT MAKE TRANSIT CARS LIKE THEY USED TO !
I just dont see them lasting the life span as the R -1-9s did !! the 1920s to and thru to the 1980s???
and some of you say the new R 142s will last taht long ??? hold your breath !!!! i will not !
I just have to ask this - Are you Howard Stern, putting us all on? No one can really be as stupid as you sound and still walk erect!!! Time to come clean, Howard.
howard stern WHO ???? dont listen to that IDIOT !! ( in my opinion )
what does H. S . have to do with rail transit systems worldwide ??? !!!!
He lived in Roosevelt, Long Island, a community served by a very large railroad.
There isn't any railroad in Roosevelt - it's in Freeport or in Hempstead. LI Bus runs on Babylon Turnpike in Roosevelt. I haven't been through there since 1979.
Wayne
"I don't think so, they have AC propulsion equipment, and AC propulsion equipment makes some wierd sounds."
That is a question I've been meaning to ask. I have noticed that when the R-110A's used to slow down or come to a stop in a station, they used to give off a whining sound.
Not to sound funny, but to describe it - it sounded like the sad whining sound a dog makes, only slower and more frequently.
Does the AC proplusion make this sound? Does anyone know about this? Thanks.
Yes, the whining is AC motors at work. During acceleration, the power to them is changing frequencies to match the speed, which is what makes it sound so weird. During braking, you hear it because the motors are doing dymanic braking.
OK folks !! GET MAD !!!!!.......... when the R 142s first arives paint a large permanent "S" ............. scrap SCRAP!!!
on them !! they should arrive first at the S C R A P Y A R D S ....!!!!
in no more but less than 10 YEARS thats where they will be !!! """" JUNK""!! ( not even good scrap material )
THAT'S ALL YOU TALK ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3 THINGS:
THAT THE R-142'S WON'T LAST AND ARE GOING TO BE SCRAPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!
RACISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND !!!!!"""""RAILFAN WINDOWS"""""!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU HAVE A ONE-TRACK MIND (PARDEN THE PUN)
CAN'T YOU DISCUSS ANYTHING ELSE?????????????????????????????????????
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
New York City Transit, your comments are offensive and inappropriate for this site. You obviously know nothing about the R142's and have not right to say they last 10 years. In fact, they will last at least 30 to 40 years.
I suggest you take your comments elsewhere and stop TRASHING this site.
Nooooooo. He is imitating Mr. Willie. The words in italic are Mr. Willie's and the others are NYC TRANSIT.
the R 68s are HIPPOS right ??
trashing who ?? what ?? all you have to do is prove that the R 142S are the finest ever built subway car.....
WITH FACTS AND SPECIFICATIONS and example as to how the old R -1 - 9 to 26 & 30 ....
THEY WERE ALL JUNK LIKE the bmt B & D and the R 10s prove the R 142s are the most superior
absolutely strongest most endurable ever built subway car in the world ever !!!
retoric and JUST BEING BRAND NEW IS NOT ENOUGH.... specks engineering mfg etc is !!!
we were told that the blue line here in los angeles would have the state of the art light & heavy rail cars
THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING APART !! like in ATLANTA !! the subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in winter!!
so what if something is brand new ..... DOESNT MEAN ITS BETTER !!! so who am i trashing ?? where ???
The R-142 and R-142A are designed for a Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF) of 100,000 miles. This is a contractual requirement. No full order of subway cars has ever had a contractual MDBF of 100,000 miles.
The cars have several components that are designed to be more reliable and easier to maintain than their predecessors, such as AC propulsion.
David
trashing who ?? what ?? all you have to do is prove that the R 142S are the finest ever built subway car.....
WITH FACTS AND SPECIFICATIONS and example as to how the old R -1 - 9 to 26 & 30 ....
THEY WERE ALL JUNK LIKE the bmt B & D and the R 10s prove the R 142s are the most superior
absolutely strongest most endurable ever built subway car in the world ever !!!
retoric and JUST BEING BRAND NEW IS NOT ENOUGH.... specks engineering mfg etc is !!!
we were told that the blue line here in los angeles would have the state of the art light & heavy rail cars
THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING APART !! like in ATLANTA !! the subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in winter!!
so what if something is brand new ..... DOESNT MEAN ITS BETTER !!! so who am i trashing ?? where ???
The R-142 and R-142A are designed for a Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF) of 100,000 miles. This is a contractual requirement. No full order of subway cars has ever had a contractual MDBF of 100,000 miles.
The cars have several components that are designed to be more reliable and easier to maintain than their predecessors, such as AC propulsion.
David
trashing who ?? what ?? all you have to do is prove that the R 142S are the finest ever built subway car.....
WITH FACTS AND SPECIFICATIONS and example as to how the old R -1 - 9 to 26 & 30 ....
THEY WERE ALL JUNK LIKE the bmt B & D and the R 10s prove the R 142s are the most superior
absolutely strongest most endurable ever built subway car in the world ever !!!
retoric and JUST BEING BRAND NEW IS NOT ENOUGH.... specks engineering mfg etc is !!!
we were told that the blue line here in los angeles would have the state of the art light & heavy rail cars
THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING APART !! like in ATLANTA !! the subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in winter!!
so what if something is brand new ..... DOESNT MEAN ITS BETTER !!! so who am i trashing ?? where ???
The R-142 and R-142A are designed for a Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF) of 100,000 miles. This is a contractual requirement. No full order of subway cars has ever had a contractual MDBF of 100,000 miles.
The cars have several components that are designed to be more reliable and easier to maintain than their predecessors, such as AC propulsion.
David
trashing who ?? what ?? all you have to do is prove that the R 142S are the finest ever built subway car.....
WITH FACTS AND SPECIFICATIONS and example as to how the old R -1 - 9 to 26 & 30 ....
THEY WERE ALL JUNK LIKE the bmt B & D and the R 10s prove the R 142s are the most superior
absolutely strongest most endurable ever built subway car in the world ever !!!
retoric and JUST BEING BRAND NEW IS NOT ENOUGH.... specks engineering mfg etc is !!!
we were told that the blue line here in los angeles would have the state of the art light & heavy rail cars
THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING APART !! like in ATLANTA !! the subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in winter!!
so what if something is brand new ..... DOESNT MEAN ITS BETTER !!! so who am i trashing ?? where ???
The R-142 and R-142A are designed for a Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF) of 100,000 miles. This is a contractual requirement. No full order of subway cars has ever had a contractual MDBF of 100,000 miles.
The cars have several components that are designed to be more reliable and easier to maintain than their predecessors, such as AC propulsion.
David
trashing who ?? what ?? all you have to do is prove that the R 142S are the finest ever built subway car.....
WITH FACTS AND SPECIFICATIONS and example as to how the old R -1 - 9 to 26 & 30 ....
THEY WERE ALL JUNK LIKE the bmt B & D and the R 10s prove the R 142s are the most superior
absolutely strongest most endurable ever built subway car in the world ever !!!
retoric and JUST BEING BRAND NEW IS NOT ENOUGH.... specks engineering mfg etc is !!!
we were told that the blue line here in los angeles would have the state of the art light & heavy rail cars
THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING APART !! like in ATLANTA !! the subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in winter!!
so what if something is brand new ..... DOESNT MEAN ITS BETTER !!! so who am i trashing ?? where ???
The R-142 and R-142A are designed for a Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF) of 100,000 miles. This is a contractual requirement. No full order of subway cars has ever had a contractual MDBF of 100,000 miles.
The cars have several components that are designed to be more reliable and easier to maintain than their predecessors, such as AC propulsion.
David
trashing who ?? what ?? all you have to do is prove that the R 142S are the finest ever built subway car.....
WITH FACTS AND SPECIFICATIONS and example as to how the old R -1 - 9 to 26 & 30 ....
THEY WERE ALL JUNK LIKE the bmt B & D and the R 10s prove the R 142s are the most superior
absolutely strongest most endurable ever built subway car in the world ever !!!
retoric and JUST BEING BRAND NEW IS NOT ENOUGH.... specks engineering mfg etc is !!!
we were told that the blue line here in los angeles would have the state of the art light & heavy rail cars
THEY ARE ALREADY FALLING APART !! like in ATLANTA !! the subway cars doors FREEZE SHUT in winter!!
so what if something is brand new ..... DOESNT MEAN ITS BETTER !!! so who am i trashing ?? where ???
The R-142 and R-142A are designed for a Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF) of 100,000 miles. This is a contractual requirement. No full order of subway cars has ever had a contractual MDBF of 100,000 miles.
The cars have several components that are designed to be more reliable and easier to maintain than their predecessors, such as AC propulsion.
David
NYCTRANSIT is NOT the one trashing this site. He is responding to the previous post and quoting the comments he is responding to by using italics.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
ok but the 142s will not last 30 - to - 40 years !! no way !!!
You don't know what you talking about. Yes they will last 30 to 40 years. If you don't work in the industry and are not involved with Kawasaki, Bombardier or NYCT then you don't know. Your have no foundation to support your comments. SUPPORT YOU CLAIM WITH FACTS, FACTS AND FACTS. You already got me trouble with NYC Transit on this site.
The R62's are the best rapid transit cars in the world with as much of 300,000 + miles between failures. They are over 15 years and still run great. The R142 and R142A are an evolution of this car with AC drive and proven IGBT system. NYCT doesn't order large number of cars without a proving ground. The R142's and R142A's are built like tanks will outlive you and me.
NYCTRANSIT is NOT the one trashing this site. He is responding to the previous post and quoting the comments he is responding to by using italics.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Thank you Jim. People shouldn't go making accusations without carefully reading the posts first. Anyone who points the finger without standing on solid ground is a fool and should keep his damn mouth shut!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"Thank you Jim. People shouldn't go making accusations without carefully reading the posts first. Anyone who points the finger without standing on solid ground is a fool and should keep his damn mouth shut!"
The repeating of the comments was not indicated on the post or wasn't obvious that it was a response to a previous post. Remember, I didn't call you names and you are generalizing to indirectly calling me a fool and keep my mouth shut. This is kid stuff and not appropriate for this website. BTW, with a name of NYC Transit, do you work in the industry? I"m sure you don't.
The repeating of the comments was not indicated on the post or wasn't obvious that it was a response to a previous post. Remember, I didn't call you names and you are generalizing to indirectly calling me a fool and keep my mouth shut. This is kid stuff and not appropriate for this website. BTW, with a name of NYC Transit, do you work in the industry? I"m sure you don't.
I am including a copy of my other post that I responded to you when you apologized:
You replayed Mr. Willie's comments which can be easily misinterpreted. If you are not the author than I apologize put let's not propagate his comments. Whoever wrote the stupid comments is not informed on the subject matter and doesn't work for Kawasaki or Bombardier or NYCT.
Apology accepted. I hold nothing against you. I just looked at my post that you responded to. I always put comments from posts that I respond to in Italics. Evidently, something got screwed up with my HTML on that post. I can see why you would make an error in judgement on that. The only thing is, that Willie is so redundant with his comments that there should have been no mistake as to whose comments they were. Anyway, like I said, apology accepted. There's no sense in perpetuating this mess. BTW, Mr. Willie, I personally don't have anything against you, but your redundancy is getting on my nerves, as well as everyone else on the forum. Make your point and let it drop. Don't keep on like a broken record. I wish to make a statement that I personally don't have anything against anyone on this forum, even though I may disagree vehemently with what some of you say. We're all railfans with one common interest, even though we collectively are one big melting pot of diffrerent races, religions, ethnic backgrounds, and in some cases - geographical locations. I know what Willie is saying. He's a New Yorker in LA. I'm a New Yorker in South Florida. We also have Sea Beach Fred in Arcadia, CA, #1Brighton Exp Bob in Hawaii, Steve Hoskins out in LA among others in other parts of the country. anyway, as different as we all are, we share one common interest and shouldn't be at one another's throats.
No, this kid stuff isn't appropriate. Like I said, we shouldn't be at each other's throats. As for me, I'm a bit hotheaded when I get an unjustified attack coming at me out of left field. I apologize also for what I said also.
In answer to your question asking if I work in the industry, the answer is no. I never considered myself an authority on the technical aspects of rolling stock, and I never indicated in any way that the R-142's were going to last 10 years and should have an S painted on them. As for you, even if you do work in the industry, it doesn't qualify you to make a judgement on the R-142 either, because you neither designed it nor had the privilege of running one in a test or in service. As for how I feel about the R-142's, I'm impressed with what I've seen so far, and I haven't seen much. I've seen the same pics and the one real video movie that everyone else has seen, and that's it. From a railfan's point of view, the one thing I don't appreciate is full-width cabs. But, to me, the R-142 looks like something the TA and the city can be proud of as they boast their Y2K cars to the rest of the world. This is the first car contract of the 21st Century (all you 2001 people, I don't want to hear it!) in the whole world. See that, a small HTML error and you get me 100% wrong. Evidently, you don't read all the posts. This is not the first time I said something positive about the R-142. Yes, I'm a nostalgia freak and hate to see the Redbirds go, but I also realize that nothing lasts forever, and we all have to accept change. In my opinion, the R-142 is the nicest looking design of a subway car since full-width cabs came out. I was never a fan of the R-44's, R-46's, R-62's or R-68's. They did something nice with the R-110's, both A and B, but that was just experimental. I think the R-142's will be just fine. Like I said in a previous post, I don't believe they will perform equally. One is going to perform better than the other. I'm referring to the Kawasakis vs. the Bombardiers.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
New York City Transit, your comments are offensive and inappropriate for this site. You obviously know nothing about the R142's and have not right to say they last 10 years. In fact, they will last at least 30 to 40 years.
I suggest you take your comments elsewhere and stop TRASHING this site.
First off, before you start pointing the finger and making accusations, make sure you target the right person. I was replying to that Willie character who keeps saying that the R-142 should be scrapped. Read my posts and pay attention to what I'm posting. Then you will have egg all over your face. I'm not the one who keeps saying that the R-142 will last only 10 years, and I NEVER said any such thing. You don't own this BB and don't tell me to stop trashing the site, because I certainly am not the one trashing it. I am totally outraged at your comments to me and about me. With your off-target accusations, you're no better than that LA Willie character. Take your attitude and stick it way up there!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You replayed Mr. Willie's comments which can be easily misinterpreted. If you are not the author than I apologize put let's not propagate his comments. Whoever wrote the stupid comments is not informed on the subject matter and doesn't work for Kawasaki or Bombardier or NYCT.
You replayed Mr. Willie's comments which can be easily misinterpreted. If you are not the author than I apologize put let's not propagate his comments. Whoever wrote the stupid comments is not informed on the subject matter and doesn't work for Kawasaki or Bombardier or NYCT.
Apology accepted. I hold nothing against you. I just looked at my post that you responded to. I always put comments from posts that I respond to in Italics. Evidently, something got screwed up with my HTML on that post. I can see why you would make an error in judgement on that. The only thing is, that Willie is so redundant with his comments that there should have been no mistake as to whose comments they were. Anyway, like I said, apology accepted. There's no sense in perpetuating this mess. BTW, Mr. Willie, I personally don't have anything against you, but your redundancy is getting on my nerves, as well as everyone else on the forum. Make your point and let it drop. Don't keep on like a broken record. I wish to make a statement that I personally don't have anything against anyone on this forum, even though I may disagree vehemently with what some of you say. We're all railfans with one common interest, even though we collectively are one big melting pot of diffrerent races, religions, ethnic backgrounds, and in some cases - geographical locations. I know what Willie is saying. He's a New Yorker in LA. I'm a New Yorker in South Florida. We also have Sea Beach Fred in Arcadia, CA, #1Brighton Exp Bob in Hawaii, Steve Hoskins out in LA among others in other parts of the country. anyway, as different as we all are, we share one common interest and shouldn't be at one another's throats.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/15/2000
Don't forget Bill Newkirk from Massapequa, LI, New York!
W O W !!! There's been a lot of heated posts and topics as of late. Between SubTalk and Bustalk it's starting to resemble a WWF "Battle Royal" !!
Bill Newkirk
answer this question what happened to he good strong U.S.A. AMERICAN made subway and rail cars ???
so the U.S.A. cant and wont and will never again ----------------
make a subway car anymore ??? how long you think these new transit cars will last ?
like the 142s and others ??? LAST LIKE THE R - 1 -R-9 s DID RIGHT ??? !!!!
Why do you always use the R-1/9 as an example? They lasted no longer than any other subway car.
Is it perhaps that 19 is your IQ?
Defy Reason as much as you want, but don't defy
decency. You don't like "Mr. Willie"'s persistence
and insistence on issues. Then ignore his posts.
Your persistence in attacking him does not reflect
well on your intelligence and your decency. I
happen to know that you are a bright young person.
Use your mind to try to understand Mr. Willie,
rather than take cheap shots at the guy. Suggesting
that his IQ is 19 is a cheap shot.
Perhaps people's lack of patience and nastiness
toward Mr. Willie is a good thing. Perhaps this is
an opportunity to look at how willing and able we
are to allow for diversity. I've always noticed a
discomfort in railfans when it comes to other
railfans who are very absorbed in transit. Someone
who dresses up as a motorman, or walks around making air compressor sounds, or who seem obsessed with one subject reflects badly on many who are trying to pass for normal. We don't want to stand out and be made fun of.
But we are driven by forces that cause us to do things that do not make sense to ordinary people. Chasing after trains in a car to take a picture. Standing out in the cold to take a picture. Going to a slide show to see old subway cars and trolley cars. Working in the cold to restore an old subway car.
If we can be kind enough with ourselves to allow our own interests and ways of expressing them, then
maybe we can be kinder to others whose ways of
expressing themselves seem to puzzle us?
But we are driven by forces that cause us to do things that do not make sense to ordinary people. Chasing after trains in a car to take a picture. Standing out in the cold to take a picture. Going to a slide show to see old subway cars and trolley cars. Working in the cold to restore an old subway car.
If we can be kind enough with ourselves to allow our own interests and ways of expressing them, then maybe we can be kinder to others whose ways of expressing themselves seem to puzzle us?
Well said, heypaul. You've hit the nail on the head.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone who dresses up as a motorman, or walks around making air compressor sounds ..
I blew a train whistle in the uptown Polo Grounds shuttle tunnel to get people's attention and commemorate the passing of trains through that tunnel. Pun intended :)
--Mark
I blew a train whistle in the uptown Polo Grounds shuttle tunnel to get people's attention and commemorate the passing of trains through that tunnel. Pun intended :)
--Mark
In reality, the last whistle to blow on the PG Shuttle undoubtedly sounded like a Lo-V whistle, as the Flivvers were similar. It was a very high-pitched whistle, not the deep-sounding RR steam loco kind that most railfan whistles sound like.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
you need help nyc transit!! seek a good head shrink it wil make you a beter person !!
YOU NEED A HEAD SHRINK, FOR TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT AND YOUR, FROM WHAT I HEARD, ABOUT 3,000 MILES AWAY. BURN IN #@%! ,Have a blessed evening!
Trevor Logan
BLESSINGS TO YOU TOO ! ( i dont need a head shrink ) BUT I LIKE YOUR WEB SITE !!!
he motor city garage NYC SUBWAY AND BUS SITE !!!! now dont get upset but those new cars wont last long !!!
Thanks for visiting my site, hope you enjoy it. But I'm a optimistic about the R142s!
Trevor
good i like you site !!! i am a BROTHER just like you !! i love new york it is my home ..... even if i live somewhere else!!!
my favorite is the flushing # 7 line and THE A to rockways ( told you i dont need a head shrink )
ill send you a railfan vidieo if you want and i wont charge you for it either !! send me your po box.
e mail me at alamllah@yahoo.com
Bet my address is in you mailbox, check it, I can't wait to see you works
Trevor
mr trevor logan if you sent me the correct address i will mail it to you !! then you can see that i walk the walk !
I doubt that a dullard like you has read the "Scarlet Letter" but what we need to do is hang a big red 'A' on you. But it won't stand for Adulterer. It'll stand for Asshole.
01/14/2000
Mr.Willie,
What would happen if down the road the R-142's have a MDBF equal to or better than the R-62/62A's. Seriously, no joking, WHAT IF?
Would you still call for their scrappings?
Or would you change your tune if they didn't have full width cabs and had nice clean !!!???RAILFAN WINDOWS???!!
C'mon, give them a chance, a fair chance! If they turn out better than you predicted, you may have egg on your face.
So I appeal to you Brother Willie, come on, make nice with the R-142's, they don't hate you. Why do you hate them? Be a good sport and let them be. They harbor no malice to the Redbirds. Nothing lasts forever, it's time for the changing of the guard.
So wadda ya say Mr.Willie, Subway Photographer. Face east and blow a nice kiss towards the East 180th St shops and show them that all is forgiven and wish them well. C'mon brother Will, we're rooting for you!
Bill Newkirk
I need a couple of Tylenols
first of all am am from new york city a place i still call HOME!!!!
even if i do live somewhere else !! what i said about the 142s I said about the ATLANTA-MARTA subway cars...
STICKING SHUT in cold weather ??? BRAND NEW STATE OF THE ART CARS !!! like BART- san francisco...
now here in los angeles some of our rail cars are falling apart when the OLD TROLLEYS we once had
were strong and true !! you see they were built SIMPLE AND GOOD MATERIALS !!!!
like he new R 142s??? what happened to the r 110s??? you dont need tylenol or a drink at the bar !!!
but i would not hold my breath as to ANY OF THESE NEW SO CALLED SUBWAY CARS ...
i would guess about 10 years and then SCRAP !!!!!
The R-142s and R-142As have stainless steel bodies and framing. The R-142s (Bombardier) even have stainless steel end bonnets (first time since the R-38!). As long as the bodies are well-constructed, the cars have the potential to last 50 years or more. Components that don't meet standards can (and no doubt will) be changed out. NYC Transit has a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System), under which the life-cycle of each component is calculated, and the component is then changed out before it reaches the end of the life-cycle -- and replaced with an upgraded version where practical. So again, even if the cars are lemons component-wise (and that remains to be seen since they've only been tested for a few days and won't enter in-service testing for several months), that doesn't mean the cars will remain lemons forever.
Can we stop going in circles about the R-142s now?
David
01/15/2000
I'm beginning to wonder why the differences in the R-142 and R-142A. The end bonnets are different, the storm doors are different sizes, even one type has red near the headlights while the other is said to have black near the headlights. Why can't both contracts be identical except where two different contractors are building them ??
Bill Newkirk
The two cars (R-142 and R-142A) are intended to be able to run together in a train, but I'm not sure why there are cosmetic differences. I know that MTA Arts for Transit is involved in the aesthetic design (pretty sure the fading red stripe on the end units belongs to them). Perhaps "the small details" (E.L. Norton) are left to the contractors along with the big stuff, and they only communicate with each other about issues that affect the two cars' ability to run together.
David
steve the RED letter " A " speaks of yourself !!!!!!
steve the RED letter " A " speaks of yourself !!!!!!
These are some questions primarily for NYCtransit motormen or former motormen:
-Where do you go to start driving (at the yard, station,etc.) and how do you know this?
-How long before you switch to another route?
-What do you do on your midday switch(if you have one)?
Thank You.
As a soon to be former Train Opertator, I'll answer your question. The training time is 90 working days for the B division(letter lines), 70 or 75 for the A division(number lines).First, you qualify moving trains around in the terminals and yards.Second, you qualify in passenger service. Some lines you qualify for two days, others one day. After these parts of the course are completed, you take a road test on a line( no particular one), with your instructor, followed by a written final exam.Upon successful completion of these sequences, you graduate. Before you begin the first sequence, you are shown the equipment by the instructors.They show you how to make cuts and adds, overcome problems with the train, prepare trains for service etc. When you're on your own, you are referred to as "Road extra". This means that you may be assigned to work on any line in your division. When the division has a pick of jobs( 2 times a year), you pick a job according to seniority if you can. As a new Train Operator, this can take up to two years.(It took me three years to pick a job). When you pick a job, you pick in a particular section of the division.In the B division, there are three sections. First, the North. This section comprises of the J,M,L,A,and C lines.Second, the South. This comprises of the B.D,Q,and FS lines. Third, the Queens section. This section comprises of the E,G,R, and F lines.You can pick extra list in a particulae section, work trains, vacation relief( you fill in for an employee on vacation).
Thank you for giving the schedule for training I take my T/O physical on Tues. and should start on the following Mon. I just hope I get to stay in the A division.
which subway car is the most difficult to operate ?? i used o drive a bus!!
It depends which division needs people more. The last class went to the IRT if I'm not mistaken.The B division is pretty much filled up at this time with new people.You may get your wish.
Good Luck! Hope to see you around.
Mr. Willie, it's getting a little old. All you have to say about the R142s is that the're bad. Fine. We all get the idea. It's just annoying to read a message about how bad they are. If you have nothing constructive to say don't say it. Even of you do say it, once is enough. It's getting really old.
Dontcha just love it when someone 2,750 miles away seems to think he knows everything about the R142's? Hardly anyone in NY City has seen them, and he's out there in Los Angeles knowing everything.....
Some news from Philly,
1) New signs have been put in at 30th Street on the SST platforms.
2) The boxes for the TPI Metro are all around the city. They will probably begin distributuion next week.
Speaking of signs, they put new message signs in at Olney Station, but they are worthless, because all they do is tell you the time and that if you cross the tracks you will get killed. Nothing riders may actually want to know, like when the trains are supposed to come, and when they are coming.
The signs on the subway-surface are very useful especially with info on delays, diversions, etc. I hadn't noticed any on the Subway or El. PATCO has recently installed these and they came in very handy earlier today when service was reduced to a single track across the Ben Franklin Bridge just before the PM rush due to police activity which closed the bridge to vehicular traffic.
will like to know more about the Orthographic projection on the R17 and R21 subway car and the complete custmary measurement to scale down to 10/36 inces,actual size of windows,doors,length,width,and pictures of the wheel motor. can somebody help me out with this? trying to built it to scale need dimension,its a project
Although the following idea might preclude me from posting on SubTalk, perhaps it might tickle some of you.
Maybe, before being allowed to get on the SubTalk Board, interested parties might be tested with a
SubTalk Simulator. Novices would be seated in a special room with a computer set-up and a Simulated Message Board. They would then be shown inflamatory posts involving favorite bakeries, pizzerias, Bill and Hillary, Rudy, Al Sharpton, and Froggy the Gremlin. These posts would appear in the midst of an intense discussion of what Letter or Symbol should be used to designate future subway lines. If the novice veered from the main discussion to engage in some off-topic post, he would be given a mild electric shock to get him back on track.
Likewise the simulator would monitor the novice's use of exclamation points, capitals, silly observations, references to any of the folowing: Abbott & Costello, Moe Larry and Curly, railfan windows, Niagara Falls, rollercoasters, and carousels.
As I said, I am not really serious about this since I would never get a chance to get out on the Main Line. Although, as I think Paul Matus once observed, my posts frequently seem to be designed to amuse myself anyway.
Ouch!!!!! I just got a shock.
heypaul, I LOVE IT!! I LOVE IT!!
ZZZZAAAAAPPPPP!!!!
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
What you really need to do is interface your R9 cab to a PC and VCR to create an R9 simulator. As for the SubTalk simulator, I Like It :-) :-) :-)
Well, since you were still able to type that post, I'll have to assume that you didn't connect it to the third rail. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a complete AAR control stand, how do I interface it to a PC to simulate a locomotive.
John--- since you reacted nicely to my idea about a SubTalk Simulator, I will press my luck and give you one of my silly answers to your question. I don't have a lot of patience with computers, so why not let me send you my Virtual Reality Glasses and Virtual Audio Headphones, and you can create anything you want just as you want it. No expensive software, crashing programs, or Bill Gates. Just a healthy imagination, au naturel.
If you desire a more sophisticated approach, I have no knowledge to offer. Maybe Dougie can help. He has a 1" to 1" scale model of the entire Franklin Avenue Shuttle out on his country estate. He modeled it as a 5 track line with room for 2 additional tracks, which would provide a connection to the long forgotten East 14th Northern spur of his much beloved Bay Ridge Branch.
I guess I'll be the one to take this question seriously as a former hobbyist programmer. In order to interface it, you'd have to put sensors into the thing. Then you'd have to connect those sensors up to the computer. Of course, after that, you'd have to write a computer program to read the data and interpret it. Since there isn't a program that currently simulates a locomotive to that accuracy, you'd have to write one of your own. Such a monumental task is beyond me, which is why I got out of programming. I don't have the patience.
I would look at the numerous websites of people who are building their own cockpit for their aircraft simulators. While involving an entirely different mode of transportation, they are essentially trying to do the same thing you are: use accurate, PHYSICAL controls for your vehicle to interact with the computer program. They are working hard to find solutions to the questions you pose.
One of the big things they are using is an "EPIC card." Basically, this is a card that you hook up sensors in your control stand to, and the card provides a way to hook them to the computer and offers its own programing language. I am told they are very useful for the purpose of building a cockpit, so it should be helpful for your control stand. Priced at $200, though, it demonstrates the expense you would need to go through in money and time to get your control stand to work.
For more information about the SENSORS you could use, I would refer to books about robotics. Obviously, robots HAVE to use a lot of sensors. Because robotics is right now mostly a hobby, there are a lot of "Build Your Own Robot" books that describe sensors in clear and simple terms.
You will find that hooking your control stand to the computer would be very difficult and even tedious, but it most certainaly CAN be done with off-the-shelf products.
Hope this helps,
Brandon Bostian
PS--The EPIC cards also provide a way for the PC to communicate TO the control stand. That way, you could hook up a speedometer or other indicator(s) on the control stand to the simulator.
I use an R44 controller to operate a model railroad with MTS import subway cars from time to time. The console has buttons for buzzer and horn to which make a welcome addition to any sound devices you may have. Most train controllers for HO today have provisions for momentum and braking. You can rip apart a tech III, take the leads from the coast, braking and directional switches and wire them through the contact fingers of any master controller you can get your hands on. As I told Paul, the reverser fingers on the R9 controller can light up his cotten end signs which would look great if he had a higher ceiling.
Where can one get their hands on a controller and brake stand? :)
That's been my big stumbling block so far....
I just got off the phone with Doug, and we decided that it was a tad too cold and windy tonight to hold our Secret 6 hour Shoreline Walk to see if there are any remnants of the almost forgotten Dyker Beach and Bergen Beach Branches of the Bay Ridge Division that are only visible in the evening in the month of January. Membership in this club has been restricted to people who believe in the existence of these branches. Non believers would make it impossible for the artifacts to appear. That is our only criterion for membership. Otherwise there is no discrimination as to your style of punctuation, lack of sense of humor, political affiliation, favorite food, or favorite subway line.
However, members of our exclusive walking tour club are advised to keep their secret decoder rings on standby, as ideal conditions for the long awaited Disabled Rockaway Shuttle ride are almost upon us.
The full moon's not until next Thursday, Paul - aren't you rushing things a bit? -:)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heypaul,
I have been asked to inquire of you if circumferential is the adjective form of circumference? An English teacher I know thinks it is a really neat word.
Wasn't the Belt Parkway originally called the Circumferential Highway?
Alan Glick
>>>Wasn't the Belt Parkway originally called the Circumferential Highway?
Alan Glick <<<
Yes. But nobody can spell circumferential, especially in Brooklyn.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey, Kevin, I resemble that remark!
Actually, if your from Brooklyn, saying 'circumferential' is much harder than spelling it.
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Hey, Kevin, I resemble that remark! <<<
I knew you were gonna say that, even before I read it.
It's funny, but fifty years ago, about half of the people in Brooklyn called it Belt Parkway, and the other half called it Shore Parkway. The name Shore Parkway apparently seems to have disappeared over the years.
Technically going south from the Gowanus, as the Belt passes through Bay Ridge it's named Leif Ericson Drive; as it rounds toward Bensonhurst and Coney Island it's Shore Parkway; past Sheepshead Bay and Marine Park/Mill Basin until the Conduit it's The Belt Parkway (just depends on the neighborhood it's passing through).
Doug aka BMTman
We only used to ride on it from either Coney Island or Sheepshead Bay out to Woodhaven Blvd (Cross Bay Blvd). Maybe that's why we called it Shore Pkwy. I was on it as recently as 18 years ago. Do they still have all of those abandoned car hulks along the side of the road?
Karl--- were these car hulks just random cars that
were abandoned along the road? Or are you talking
about the junk yards that use to be by Pennsylvania
Avenue or the ones that are near the Coney Island
Yards? I don't think you see many junk cars now
along the road. Pennsylvania Ave has been cleaned
up a lot with the building of Starrett City.
( Warning to Post 1960 Subway Car Lovers--- Please
be advised that you might find the following cheap
shots to be offensive and you should click off this
post if you are easily outraged)
Karl--- you wouldn't be referring to the post 1960
pieces of junk subway cars that are strewn about the
Coney Island Subway Yards, are you ??
01/15/2000
OUCH !!
Bill Newkirk
heypaul, I was definately talking about automobiles, not subway cars. It seemed that every time I got on the Shore Pkwy off the Verrazano Bridge, I would see a halfdozen or more car hulks in different places along the side of the road, before I got off at Woodhaven Blvd. It reminded me of people who might have had auto breakdowns, and had to leave their cars. Everyone who came along would help themselves to parts of the vehicle, leaving nothing but a hulk. I would make the trip as often as every two to three weeks, and it would seem to be different car hulks every trip. Perhaps in those days it was a way to get rid of your old car when it had no trade-in value.
In regards to Coney Island Yards, I was always driving, and could not get much of a look as we passed over the yards. The concrete wall of the overpass did not help much either.
Karl and Alan--- Circumferential is an adjective, as our English teacher friend suspects. I usually associate it with the roadway that goes around Grand Central Terminal. I think it is called the circumferential roadway, and I have always been in awe of its construction and existence. But I think Alan is also right that the Belt Parkway was also called a Circumferential parkway too. It too is unique in that you can go around in a rather large circle on it. It's odd that I didn't think of the Belt, it is only a block away from me. The Belt and the roadway at Grand Central are too very neat pieces of architecture and highway...
01/14/2000
heypaul,
Was this tour supposed to start or end at Bellvue ?
Wait until after the Polo Grounds Shuttle tour this Sunday. We'll all have a second use for all those flashlights. Maybe you can show up Sunday and set up shop at Sedgwick and sell flashlights or "D" batteries.
I responded to Jeff Rosen but he didn't return my response. We need a look out to warn us in the tunnel of oncoming composite cars. Interested?
Bill Newkirk
heybill--- I thought you would be more compassionate towards a recovering psychotic. I was without a major psychotic episode for three days, up until I logged onto SubTalk today. Now I'm all messed up, and due to the excessive number of postings I've made today, I'm sure a lot of people here on walking close to the edge.
Sunday is a big tutoring day, so I won't be able to make it. The Sarge and I want you guys to keep an eye out for the key to the food locker, I've got a feeling that it is somewhere on the roadbed up there.
I hope to see a bunch of people at the next ERA meeting next Friday. My spies tell me that you are often there.
What key to what food locker??
Don't worry about the key, Sarge.
Tell heypaul that I think I might have found it!
01/15/2000
heypaul,
But I am compassionate towards recovering psychotics. if we start at Bellvue, maybe they'll hand out mongrammed straight jackets, but don't ever sign the guest register.
Bill Newkirk
Bill--- don't tell the Sarge, because I think it's illegal. But I have a concealed straight jacket underneath my shirt. It has remote control tensioners on the straps, so that I am always within 5 seconds of restraint. No wait, it's not bullet proof, so there's no problem.
Today I had the pleasure of getting pictures of the R142 testing on the White Plains line. Only 5 Cars of the Bombardier set were out! These cars a beautiful, YES the redbirds are the most realiable in the system, but lets face it kids, its time for new cars and were are in the new century, so lets buck-up and welcome the new cars with open arms, you haven't even rode it or seen it in action like I have and I can say, "YOU GUYS ARE IN FOR A TREAT"
Regards,
Trevor Logan
CEO & Founder
TransiTALK
Don't judge a book by its' cover!
Today I had the pleasure of getting pictures of the R142 testing on the White Plains line. Only 5 Cars of the Bombardier set were out! These cars a beautiful, YES the redbirds are the most realiable in the system, but lets face it kids, its time for new cars and were are in the new century, so lets buck-up and welcome the new cars with open arms, you haven't even rode it or seen it in action like I have and I can say, "YOU GUYS ARE IN FOR A TREAT"
Regards,
Trevor Logan
CEO & Founder
TransiTALK
It sounds like they're going to be the pride and joy of the New York City Transit system - the high-tech Y2K cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When will the pics be posted on the TransiTalk webpage?
Thanks
Clark Palicka
Will you also have pictures of the R-110 on the L line?
I sent "Mr Willie" a copy of my R-9 Audio Tape a week ago, and he was gracious enough to send me a 6 hour video cassette of some of what he shot of the Redbirds. Now frankly, I am no fan of the Redbirds, although in their earlier days I was fond of the cars which had the railfan window which would drop down. I have no videos of any recently made subway videos to compare this to. When he originally posted that he shot more than 24 hours of NYC video, I wondered what the hell is the guy going to do with all that tape.
I got his video tape in the mail yesterday, and after I had my neighbor's dog Rex sniff it for explosives, I started playing it. ( I have Rex sniff all my letters and e-mails, because I heard the Unabomber was working on a way to send explosives through e-mails right before he was apprehended ) I've only watched about 30 minutes of it so far, but I am astounded by it. I'm an old time front window watcher, and I kind of drift off into a dreamy state when I look out the front window of a train. It's like I'm watching the road and switches and signals and the train operator, and it's just a very peaceful relaxed state. Sort of like you cut loose from your ordinary worries and just watch the road ahead.
Anyway the video starts on the #7 out of Times Square, and the camera is on the whole time. It's like I'm right there looking out the window. He has audio of the car sounds, conductor's announcements, and command center. But what really amazes me is when he gets out onto the elevated in Queens, it is nighttime. I think I remember Mr. Willie saying that he was using some really high speed film to shoot with. But I was really surprised at how much I was seeing at night. There is a nice shot right after Queensborough Plaza, or whatever the name of the station is where the #7 meets the BMT. As the #7 is pulling out of the station you see another train pulling out alongside on the left, eventually veering off to the right. At first I thought it was a reflection, but then the car veered off. I found myself glued to the screen in the same sort of peaceful state as when I'm upfront myself. There were shots of trains passing by and throwing off some nice electrical arcs. This guy has really recorded something I wasn't aware of.
Guys and Mr. Willie--- you all share a love of transit. Can we all lighten up on each other? Mr. Willie--- you get on some of the guys nerves when you repeat things. You're not going to change anyone's mind by hammering away with the same thought. The guys here are willing to let you have your beliefs about the new equipment. ( By the way, the idea of the R-142's being delivered with a big S on them was one of my screw-ball ideas ) I think whenever most of us post something here, it's done with the hope that someone out there shares our interest, or knows the answer to our question, or just will give us some needed attention or approval.
I would like to again state that I am enjoying the video that Mr. Willie sent me, and that this guy has done something very unique. He certainly has a very deep interest and feel for the transit. I'm usually caught up in my own screwy approach to transit, but I just wanted to tip my hat to another one of the brotherhood and sisterhood of very special people here who have made very lasting contributions to the history and enjoyment of this passion of ours.
Bravo, Paul. The only time I've ever heard him say anything bad about anyone was in response to someone bad mouthing him. He definitely is on this site as a railfan and not a troll nor anything else.
I give away FREE VIDIEOS a am also offering a free CHICAGO 1981 cta audio tpe 90min. FREE !!!!
thank you !!! i am not here for the purpose of harrasing posts racists and personal attacks if i disagree with
anyone i stick to he on topic of transit rail systems "WORLDWIDE" not just my beloved NYC!!!
OK so now i will offer a audio of CHICAGO 1981 CTA 90 minutes long!!! if you end me your post office box
address or your addres where you recieve busines mail !!! and you will get the tape !!! sorry thats the best i can do !!!!
i am sorry if i make some folks mad but i beleive public rail transit should be enjoyed to the fullest !!!
there will be a new section on the LOST ANGELES RAIL and my pictures will be on it !!!!
it will appear on the whats new section soon as david pirrman gets it on this site !!!!!
i see public transportation differently than most folks i have no problem with new subway cars !! why cant they
be copies of the old and make out of better materials ??? note: i still havent developed my still 200 shots 35mm film!!
for a copy of the chicago cta "" pounding rail sounds 1981" e mail me at salaamallah@yahoo.com
leave an address so i can mail you a copy !!!
I SENT DAVE P. A COPY OF THE SAME VIDIEO TAPE I SENT TO PAUL P . thank you for your comments best to all subtalkers !!
I give away FREE VIDIEOS a am also offering a free CHICAGO 1981 cta audio tpe 90min. FREE !!!!
thank you !!! i am not here for the purpose of harrasing posts racists and personal attacks if i disagree with
anyone i stick to he on topic of transit rail systems "WORLDWIDE" not just my beloved NYC!!!
OK so now i will offer a audio of CHICAGO 1981 CTA 90 minutes long!!! if you end me your post office box
address or your addres where you recieve busines mail !!! and you will get the tape !!! sorry thats the best i can do !!!!
i am sorry if i make some folks mad but i beleive public rail transit should be enjoyed to the fullest !!!
there will be a new section on the LOST ANGELES RAIL and my pictures will be on it !!!!
it will appear on the whats new section soon as david pirrman gets it on this site !!!!!
i see public transportation differently than most folks i have no problem with new subway cars !! why cant they
be copies of the old and make out of better materials ??? note: i still havent developed my still 200 shots 35mm film!!
for a copy of the chicago cta "" pounding rail sounds 1981" e mail me at salaamallah@yahoo.com
leave an address so i can mail you a copy !!!
I SENT DAVE P. A COPY OF THE SAME VIDIEO TAPE I SENT TO PAUL P . thank you for your comments best to all subtalkers !!
I give away FREE VIDIEOS a am also offering a free CHICAGO 1981 cta audio tpe 90min. FREE !!!!
thank you !!! i am not here for the purpose of harrasing posts racists and personal attacks if i disagree with
anyone i stick to he on topic of transit rail systems "WORLDWIDE" not just my beloved NYC!!!
OK so now i will offer a audio of CHICAGO 1981 CTA 90 minutes long!!! if you end me your post office box
address or your addres where you recieve busines mail !!! and you will get the tape !!! sorry thats the best i can do !!!!
i am sorry if i make some folks mad but i beleive public rail transit should be enjoyed to the fullest !!!
there will be a new section on the LOST ANGELES RAIL and my pictures will be on it !!!!
it will appear on the whats new section soon as david pirrman gets it on this site !!!!!
i see public transportation differently than most folks i have no problem with new subway cars !! why cant they
be copies of the old and make out of better materials ??? note: i still havent developed my still 200 shots 35mm film!!
for a copy of the chicago cta "" pounding rail sounds 1981" e mail me at salaamallah@yahoo.com
leave an address so i can mail you a copy !!!
I SENT DAVE P. A COPY OF THE SAME VIDIEO TAPE I SENT TO PAUL P . thank you for your comments best to all subtalkers !!
Hey,it's me, BX55 once again. I'm really psyched about seeing all of you on Sunday. I'm going along with my good friend & (Appointed by those last time) team leader, Mark W.
Mark & I have done some work around the Sedgwick Ave. station to make it somewhat more accessible than it was. Hope to see you all there.
Peace & Much respect,
Shannon aka BX55
Thanks to both of you for doing this scouting work in advance. I was thinking about that in regards to the recent snowfall. I don't know if there's anything on the ground in that area of the Bronx; it could make the descent into the platform area a little tricky.
I suppose I can chime in with the history again ...
See you tomorrow.
--Mark
I went on the Polo grounds tour today as a "first-timer", and it was extremely interesting and friendly. Thanks to Shannon for a nice initial greeting and to everyone who organized the tour. As a suggestion, you may have underemphasized the climbing/slipping/falling possibilities of the trip for people who have difficulty with that kind of activity. Thanks again.
Ron S
>>>As
a suggestion, you may have underemphasized the climbing/slipping/falling possibilities of the trip
for people who have difficulty with that kind of activity. <<<
The rope guide was a big help.
Yet: the potential for injury cannot be understimated in the tunnel, especially getting on and off the platforms and catwalks. Extreme caution is advised on the next walk in that tunnel. No one was injured today and for that we can be thankful.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Agreed. And for those who were concerned about the tumble I took getting down from the catwalk, I'm fine - just a swollen ankle that is nearly normal now, no damage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BX55: Good to have you back. Are you planning on being on the Stillwell Avenue tour (whenever that schedule is decided upon)?
Maybe I can introduce myself to you and show you that I do not have a pair of horns. Anyway, welcome back.
To all the Chicago SubTalkers:
Starting January 16th and lasting through late fall, Red Line trains will be re-routed to the Loop elevated between Fullerton and Cermak / Chinatown on Sunday evenings between midnight and 6:00 AM.
The CTA will be replacing the 1943-vinatge block signalling system with ATC along the subway portion of the line, as well as powerwashing the subway stations and tunnels.
Details on the CTA website.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
So does that mean that after this fall red line trains will be operating part ATC and part non-ATC for different parts of their route? I did not know if that was possible?
I'm not quite sure. I suspect that what the CTA calls "Automatic Train Control" is more like a form of cab signalling, as opposed to the ATC found on the Washington Metro and Atlanta's MARTA system. That type of ATC is light years away for the CTA.
Other areas on the CTA system have sections of block signalling and cab signalling at different places on the same line, and as far as I know the transition between the two is fairly seamless, at least from this passenger's standpoint.
But then, I could be wrong, as my grasp of signalling isn't as good as some others on this forum. Maybe somebody who knows more about it could chime in.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
ATC is used in the State and Dearborn subways and the entire Congress "L". Most drivers are so used to the cab signals that are used almost throughout the entire system (all they do is report speed limits directly to the train) that they seem to have no idea that if you actually go the speed limit under ATC, the stop will go down in time, but instead they go VERY slow throughout ATC timers.
[Other areas on the CTA system have sections of block signalling and cab
signalling at different places on the same line, and as far as I know
the transition between the two is fairly seamless, at least from this
passenger's standpoint. ]
Unless it is like PATCO, in which they use cab signalling for their whole route but use wayside signals at switches, to indicate stop, main track, or diverging track.
Why not ?
My understanding of train control is that the signal system is in communication with the propulsion control and air brakes of the vehicles. (The following is the procedure on Railroad Diesels)If a vehicle does not comply with indications of the signal system, the signal system "tells" the application valve on the locomotive to discharge a timing reservior thru a small whistle on the control stand. This timing reservior gives the engineer approximately 5 seconds to initiate a full service brake application (26C Suppression position) or the train will go into emergency and the Pneumatic Control Switch will shut down the propulsion system.
Almost the same, except only 3 seconds are allowed for the motorman to apply brakes if he violates speed restrictions, or if a block ahead is occupied.
Chicago, however, doesen't use air brakes; I think it uses dynamic braking, or something like that. The control handle is all in one; no seperate brake and power controls.
Often the cab signal system here will make mistakes and think that a train is occupying a block ahead when it isn't.
-Jacob
In light rail systems where they do street running and running on exclusive right of way the ATC works on the high speed line and the driver operates by traffic rules in non ATC teritory.
No. All of the Howard-Dan Ryan is cab signals except for the subway. The main reason they are replacing the signals is because of incompetant drivers who, since most of the system isn't ATC, are quite afraid of hitting a stop, so trains go VERY slowly through the subways.
ATC is a much better system; the cab signal system here in Chicago is VERY unreliable.
Gentlemen:
To claify a few points -
1. CTA has Automatic block signals (ABS) on the Red Line between Fullerton and Roosevelt Road. These are the original installation when the subway opened in 1943.
2. CTA also has ABS on the Blue Line between Western Avenue on the Milwaukee (O'Hare) section, through the subway, extending all the way out to Forest Park (Congress branch). This systems is circa 1951-58.
3. These installations were the first of any signalling on the Chicago 'L' except at interlocking plants. The 'L' was operated 'on-sight' with the rule book stating 'No collision between trains would be excused'. Well, that was back in the days when motorman actually got fired for making mistakes.
4. Both ABS and Automatic Train Control (ATC)/Automatic Train Stop (ATS), or cab signals as they are referred to, have been used in combination on the North-South Line, later the present day Red Line, since the early 1970's. When a southbound train enters the Fullerton station, the ATC/ATS drops out. Likewise, when a southbound enters the Roosevelt Rd. station the ATC/ATS picks up again. The is true in reserve for a northbound train to Howard.
5. The CTA has been lobbying for money to replace the ABS in the Clybourn/Division/State Street subway for some time now. Why, because they haven't maintained the present system, and it has become unreliable. That being said, the ATC/ATS system is proven to be less expensive to maintain - i.e. no moving parts along the trackside except at the interlockings.
6. Statements made about the ATC/ATS being unreliable are not accurate. The problem is two-fold. One, inexperienced, and on occasion experienced operators who can not or will not use some common sense when operating their train. Secondly, CTA has quite a bit of slow zones on the Northside 'L'. They, the CTA, are trying to reduce the amount of slow zones, but they still exist. The section between Chicago/Franklin and the curve around the church is one section. If you ride there you will not that tie and rail replacement is going one there. One reason for the 15-mph is that the inside guard rail has been lifted to facilitate the work being done. There is also a slow zone at the curve at Willow, just before/after (depending on direction of travel), Armitage. I'm note sure what they are doing, but there is a supply of ties, tie-plates and a work vehile.
7. As to the comment on the Ravenswood making the trip between Fullerton and Belmont in the same time as the Red Line takes making no stops in between, I agree. But, this is the CTA. With less service that ever in history (5-6 minutes in the rush hours), some operators try to make the connection for the convenience of the passengers. Now that's a novel idea, doing something for the customer.
I use the Brown and Red Lines extensively - almost daily. I think that there have been some very good improvements since the dark days in 1997 - OPTO. Yes, cab signals seem to give a jerky, unreliable ride; however, compare the operators. There are some who handle their trains with neary a jerk. Granted, there are those who can't seem to get out of 'first gear'. Those are the drawbacks.
I for one will mis the changing wayside signal aspects in the subway, but after 47 years, it is time for a change. If it saves the CTA some money, and improves the ride, I'm all for it.
One last thing, I was up bright and early this morning to ride two round trips between Belmont and Cermak/Chinatown 'over the top'. This is the only time you can get to ride the out-of-serve ramp between Federal Interlocking (off the Midway-Orange Line) to the Cermak Interlocking connecting to the Red Line. It was quite cold this morning early AM.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks for your helpful info... This certainly helps clear up a lot of the confusion.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
6). I definately agree with you there. Many moterman seem to have no notion of the fact that if you go the speed limit through a GT, the timers WILL change in time. Instead, they go horribly slow, and slow down to almost a stop at every red signal, until it changes.
Slow zones are a huge problem on the "L". Why is there a new slow zone just north of Fullerton, on the inside tracks? Why is there a slow zone north of Loyola. Someone told me they were doing track work there, but if it's finished, why does the slow zone remain? Dan Ryan line has quite a few slow zones around interlockings, because the CTA claims that many are broken and inoperable, but a train could derail around one of those interlockings whether it is going slow or not.
The cab signal system is notoriously unreliable. I've heard that during the West-South shutdown, they installed a much better cab signal system, but the rest of the system has many problems, including the fact that it often thinks there is a train ahead when there isn't.
What about speeds in the subway portions? Do trains still run as fast as in the past, or have they slowed down somewhat? At least if they have slowed down, the noise level will have dropped by a few decibels.
On the Red Line, trains are still able to pick up pretty good speeds on the stretch between the Clark / Division and North / Clybourn stations.
On the Blue Line, trains continue to run rather fast in the section between Clark / Lake and Division, although the Grand Avenue stop has been re-opened and trains must stop there now.
All this assuming there are no slow zones in place, of course.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
The recent posts about signalling on the CTA "L"/subway
have inerested me greatly. Jim K's post of Sunday, Jan.
16 should be required reading.
Initially, there was some
misunderstanding about ATC, automatic train control or cab
signals--what we have in Chicago--and ATO, automatic train
operation like Washington or Atlanta. But even on ATO systems, operators must manually operate their trains to insure they can run their train should the ATO system break down.
Wayside ABS exists on portions of the Blue Line and the
Red Line, in both the Dearborn/Milwaukee and the State Street subways and the Eisenhower median tracks.
All interlockings also have wayside signals and as Isaac
Shower pointed out, the transition is usually seamless.
In ABS territory, the cab signal simply acts as a
speedometer. Overspeed protection is provided only by the
old fashion timed wayside signals--go past a yellow over
yellow slow enough and the next red will clear. If
operators have to slow down to almost 0 MPH, it means the
signals are malfunctioning, especially if they have to
stop at each one. If the operator went to fast in the
timed territory, the stop is a penalty stop.
And it is true there are a lot of false signals prompting
a brake application in ATC territory and an accompanying
rough ride on the passengers.
The stretch between Belmont and Fullerton has different
indications because the programmer felt it necessary to
slow the Red line express trains through two jogs while
relying on two station stops to keep Brown and Purple line
trains in check on the outside track. No plan was made to
include delayed outside track trains skipping the two
stops.
You New Yorkers certainly know about jogs. Tounge in
cheek--do you have any mile of straight track at all where
you can really get up to speed??
Speaking of speed I sneaked a ride in the cab of an F
train and the fastest we got was a second of 44 MPH on a
slight downgrade before he had to brake for the next
station stop.
In Chicago, all equipment is high performance, 70 MPH
capability, but limited internally at 58 MPH when the
motors cut out. They cut back in at 52 MPH with no action
necessary by the operator. Under the right conditions,
the tolerance above the 55 MPH cab signal speed limit is
exceeded, forcing a penalty brake slowdown to get back
under 55 with a resultant lurch for the passengers.
To eliminate the lurching a few stretches on the Orange
and the Blue lines had 70 MPH cab signal indication. I
say "had" because rumor says otherwise now.
My best bets for long speed 55 MPH running: Purple Line
between Lawrence and Loyola on the outside express track;
Red Line Dan Ryan and State ST subway between Clybourn and
Clark/Division and the Blue Line on the Kennedy. You
should know to include the newest Orange Line to Midway
and the Green Line has a few spots too.
Finally, the State ST subway work includes not only
replacing the 50 year old wayside signals with ATC, but
adding
interlockings at the crossovers and replacement of the
manual switch machines.
And did you know Chicago has CTC? On the Blue Line from
Jefferson Park north and between Addison and Belmont on
the Red/Purple. When a wrong main move is made there are
yellow "police gum ball light" beacons that light up at
intervals trackside.
Dave Harrison
I recently rode the O'Hare line, and it's true that it still gives 70 MPH indications in some spots, including the long stretch between Jeff Pk. and Harlem.
The Evanston Express between Lawerence and Loyola has recently had a few slow downs put in; around Berwyn, trains have to slow down to 35 for a few seconds. Why? I don't know.
The Dan Ryan now has slow zones around crossovers, so it's not quite as fast as it used to be.
Lake St., especially between Ashland and California easily gets up to top speed.
South Side Main between Roosevelt and 35th also usually gets up to full speed for awhile.
BTW, anyone Chicago railfan who hasn't been on the Englewood line yet is missing out on something great; the curve over the Dan Ryan expressway has absolutely amazing views of the skyline, and it's a VERY high elevated structure at that point.
How do manual switch machines work? I assume an employee has to get out and crank them, but to they have train stops to prevent trains going the wrong way from crashing? It looks like they have little flags, or something, almost like semaphores.
-Jacob
Sorry to come late to the discussion, if these questions have been answered before, but...
The way I read your posting suggests that there are sections of the L that are still unsignalled? Is this true?
I gather that CTA wants to put in the "Cab" system on the Red line subway portion. Are there other areas they are planning to install it?
There are no sections of the Chicago"L" unprotected by
signals except yards and the non-revenue service connector
along Paulina ST between the Green and the Blue lines.
Chicago has two kinds of signal systems--wayside ABS and
ATC with cab signal indication. On the Red and Blue lines
that use the old subways, trains operate first in ATC,
then ABS and then back into ATC except the Congress (Oops)
Forest PK leg of the Blue line in the Eisenhower
expressway median which is all ABS.
Converting the almost 60 year old State ST subway is an 18 month job and when it is
finished...who can say...if the money is there, the CTA
would likely convert the other subway. I'll check to see
if the subway signal enhancement adds CTC and reverse move
capability, for instance. Unlike New York, our lines are
mainly two tracks.
Dave
I said Chicago's CTA has CTC. Not any more I am informed. The computer main frame was dismantled. Personnel at two crossovers can establish reverse operation. This will be included in the new State Street subway signal rehab.
Dave
I hope the new cab signal system is more reliable than those used elsewhere in the system. The CTA wants to replace the wayside signals because they don't want to maintain them, and many motormen are incompetant about them.
I'm not one to comment on the signal system, but I would have to disagree and say that trains speed up going into the subway here in Chicago. Comming in from the North Side (Going South) into the subway as soon as the train clears the speed limit increases. It is only 35 on the Elevated and 55 in the Subway.
I still don't understand why Ravenswood (Brown Line) trains have a speed limit of 55 when they make 2 stops between Fullerton and Belmont and the Red Line doesn't. It should be the same for all 4 tracks, right?? A Red Line and Brown Line out of Fullerton will meet again at Belmont, it is assinine!
The only slow portions are the Blue Line Forest Park (Congress) comming in between Lasalle and the Curve to run N-S under Dearborn St.
One of my favorite runs is on week-ends or overnight when Chicago/Milwaukkee is closed and trains run between Grand and Division at full speed. It used to be more fun when Grand was closed and the run was from Clark/Lake to Division.
BJ
There have been many posts on old signage that still survives in various parts of our transit systems. One here in Phila that always amused me was in the 11th St El station until its rehab in the early 80's. The sign directed one to 'trains for Ferries and Frankford' even though the Ferries quit long ago.
I noticed on PATCO recently that several of the NJ stations have instructions on how to reach the stadiums in Phila mounted above the fare card machines. The signs note 'Stadiums - JFK, Veterans Stadium, Spectrum'... JFK was torn down in '92-'93 to make way for what is now the First Union Center. My point is that it's interesting that, even on a modern system like PATCO, some obsolete signs survive.
On another note - PATCO has stopped dispensing Susan B. Anthony coins in its change machines, reverting to the 3 quarters, 2 dimes and 1 nickel for a buck. Whether this will give way to the new dollar (Sacajewea) coin when it goes into circulation is anyone's guess.
Funny you should mention that. I was talking this morning to a co-worker about that very subject. His son works for one of the banks that handles PATCO's fare receipts, and was aware of the changes. The Susan and Sacajawea coins are not interchangeable in most coin machines, so PATCO has removed the change magazines that handle the Susans and temporarily replaced them with the more standard ones there now. Once the new dollar coins are in general circulation - a sufficient number should be available by fall - most of the change magazines will be replaced again with new ones that will dispense the Sacajawea coins. The farecard machines will have to be updated as well; that will be done sometime in the spring, during the time when few dollar coins of either variety will be tendered. The bank, by the way, would prefer that PATCO stick with the small coins - switching to the new dollar coins means that the bank will have to invest in more coin-handling equipment in order to keep PATCO's business, and they are reluctant to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was always surprised by PATCO's use of the Susan B given the public's generally bad reaction to it. Having been in Canada twice in the last five years I've been very much a fan of both their loonie and twonie. I would like to see the dollar coin become more popular here in the US.
A friend who rides PATCO every day told me of the news vendors at 8th & Market who will not accept the Susan B even though their stands are on the PATCO platform. Although I haven't seen it, I've been told that the stands even put up signs noting their refusal of the $1 coin. I wonder if Sacajawea will be as unpopular?
I would have to assume so. It's not going to be accepted as long as there are dollar bills in circulation, in my opinion. As I noted just a couple of minutes ago in another post on this thread, I agree with you about the Canadian coins - much better than ours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
and their differant color bills are lot better also.
Yes. I thought I was going to like the redesigned currency, but I've found that our new $20 and $50 are too similar (fortunately, not the hard way).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes. I thought I was going to like the redesigned currency, but I've found that our new $20 and $50 are too similar (fortunately, not the hard way).
It is very easy to mistake the new 20's for 50's and vice versa. You can't just give them to someone at a glance anymore. You have to look close at the number on them. Also, with inflation as its been for decades, its not like in the sixties or the seventies, when use of a $50 bill was rare. They're quite common today.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well i don't like dollar coins because they make it too easy to waste money. As everybody knows coins are not worth anything so most people don't really pay attention to them. You leave change around, it falls out of your pocket, you give it to bums, you leave it in tip jars, etc. I respect bills more than I do change. I keep better track of them, they are easier to store and count, I rarely loose them or give them away and they are easier to spend and harder to save. But if you come out with a dollar coin and do away with dollar bills most people would hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year. You'd loose' dollar coins by the fist full. When you mean to give that bum a quarter you might give him a dollar. If they got rid of bills you wouldn't be able to trick where you wrap a 20 around a bunch of ones to make ppl think you have enough money to cover the bet. The worst part commes with vending machines. When you feed bills into a machine you have a better sence as to exactly how much you are getting ripped off, but with a dollar coin you'd feed them to the machine like candy untill you realize that you've dropped like $10. in France they have a 10 Franc coin which is worth about 2$. You'd go up to a machine and just start feeding coins in and after a bit you'd realize that you just blew 6 bucks or 8 bucks. I say keep the bill. they are harder to loose and they are repsected more as money. They are last of the "real" bills with all the fancy scroll work and not like the "mostly blank" monopoly money of today.
Sorry, but if the dollar bill is to remain god forbid, then it will also be converted to a series 1996 design.
Also, what kind of IDIOT would just start shoving coins into a vending machine with no purpose? If you want to do that, then just make both of us happy and shove them into my pocket.
You neglected to mention the steamroller necessary to get bills into those slots and waiting for them to get sucked up. And if you can't tell the difference between a silver coin and a golden coin when you decide to feed a bum (why? You like giving them booz and crack money?), then said bum should rejoice in your stupidity.
But your forgetting that change, by definition, is not worth anything and is expendable. When suddenly change becomes worth something people will start to loose great amounts of money. I believe that it is harder to "waste" (loose, spend, give away, etc) a bill than it is to waste coins. I was also saying that in your mind a dollar can of soda paid for with a bill is more expensive than one paid for with a coin. Also todays hi-tech bill collectors are much more forgiving and accept bills in almost any condition.
As you said previously, "As everybody knows coins are not worth anything so most people don't really pay attention to them."
Maybe it's NYC, but to me, dollar bills really aren't worth much anymore. I treat them as I would coins. A practical and more widely accepted dollar coin would be much more useful. I hate shoving 8-12 coins into washing machines when one or two should suffice.
Maybe "hi-tech" bill collectors are better, but PATH, Septa (transit content), and most vending machines don't rank in the hi-tech category. So you're stuck with having tons of quarters on hand to use any of them, or getting tons of quarters back when you break large bills. I can't wait for good dollar coins.
If you think about it, the dollar bill is one of the most worthless pieces of paper currency in the Western world. There are probably others, but the only paper currency worth less that I've handled is the Turkish Lira. A 50,000L note is worth about 10 cents now.
The eastbound trolley platform at 15th Street and the El station at Spring Garden St still have the signs before the Center City Commuter Tunnel. R3 to West Chester, R8 to Newtown, R6 to Pottstown and Norristown, etc, etc. Even the Fairmount El station was still there IIRC.
The 15th St El station had the old maps for a VERY long time (given the station's prominence in the system and its passenger volume). The last time I passed thru, about 1 1/2 weeks ago, these were covered by new maps. I didn't notice if the pretzel boy's picture was still there - when this first went in in the mid-70's friends told me he looked like me (I didn't think so). A few years later, he looks even less like me!
>>>On another note - PATCO has stopped dispensing Susan B. Anthony coins in its change machines,
reverting to the 3 quarters, 2 dimes and 1 nickel for a buck.<<<
I wish the Metrocard dispensers would quit spitting back SBA dollars and do that!
www.forgotten-ny.com
No! Go for dollar coins, I don't need so many coins and bills are annoying.
DOWN WITH THE ONE DOLLAR BILL!!! AND HILLARY TOO!!!
The day Hillary is on a coin is the day I move to Cuba.
I want to visit Cuba. It won't be fun when you can use an American passport to do it.
I want to visit Cuba. It won't be fun when you can use an American passport to do it.
Come to Miami. Same difference.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Interesting that the old signs part of this thread (as in the title) generated only two responses. All of the rest were about money!
That's 'cuz we're a greedy bunch!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I take the Times Square to GCT shuttle everyday and have often wondered why on arrival on Track 4 at GCT the train stops some 60 odd feet from the buffer stop (sorry I dont know the American term for these). This stopping short seems to make no sense to me from a safety point of view as the arriving trains on Track 1, also a dead end, do not stp short.
A silly pedantic question I know but i just wondered if someone out there had an answer!!!
01/15/2000
That "buffer stop" you referred to may our BUMPING BLOCK. As for the distances you described, possibly as a safety precaution in the event of motorman (T/O) or brake failure. If I'm wrong please correct.
Bill Newkirk
Don't know why this is, but they've been doing it at least since the early 1960s when track 4 was equipped for automated train operation. There was always enough room east of where the tain stopped at Grand Central to store another train (3 cars at that time).
-- Ed Sachs
Doesn't the 3rd Rail expire short of the buffer
on Track 4? I noticed the 3rd rail ended shots
before the actual buffer stop.
No i don't thinks so - the third rail albeit rusty appaers to run right up to the end. If the third rail did stop short then again why? Its perhaps a useless question but there must be a credible reason for it!!
Watch out all T/O's. The shuttle was automated from 1962 through 1964 and with CBTC, YOU T/O'S AND CONDUCTORS WILL HAVE TO FIND OTHER WORK. Guaranteed, CBTC will cause automation.
BEWARE! BEWARE!
[Watch out all T/O's. The shuttle was automated from 1962 through 1964 and with CBTC, YOU T/O'S AND CONDUCTORS WILL HAVE TO FIND OTHER WORK. Guaranteed, CBTC will cause automation.
BEWARE! BEWARE!]
I'm sure that any change will be accomplished through attrition, buyouts, and the usual lethargy (as witness the almost complete inaction on OPTO). Besides, at the rate the TA is putting in CBTC, we'll all be using matter transporters by the time they've made any progress.
I have heard from the daughter of the LIC Branch manager that he train that leaves Glen Head a t 650 will become a through NYP- Oyster Bay train next week
I'll believe it when i see it. Besides, I need one in the evening, since I almost never go into NYC via OB, unless I'm desperate! But it'd be useful comming home.
Then again, given how the DMs have been holding up...
I do not know the evening time but it as last i remeberedwas around 630 pmor somewhere asround it
Hi. I am a New York Metrocard collector. I have doubles and triples
after 1996 and I am interested in trading or buying cards prior to 1997 (perhaps some of more current date). So if you are interested, please respond. Thank you.
In about 1940 I worked as a clerk at the Williamsburg Power Plant in Brookly, NY. Whatever happend to it? Also, what is the status of the BMT subway? Your answer will be appreciated.
Cordially, Art
The status of the BMT subway? It doesn't exist. It was taken over by the city, and dismembered piece by piece. Now the old BMT and the IND lines are considered as one system.
Could you tell us more about the Williamsburg Power Plant? Was it part of Con Edison, assuming Con Edison existed in the early 40's? Where was it, when was it built, and what was it like? Was it coal fired or oil fired?
Are you new to this website? If so, welcome aboard. Sorry to ask you more questions than you originally asked, but power plants interest me.
01/15/2000
Arthur,
OH! the mighty have fallen ! Yes, the BMT Subway was purchased around 1940 and absorbed into the Board of Transportation along with the IND subway and IRT Lines. A few "els" were demolished and in 1967 the BMT and IND divisions were merged. A couple of "els" were demolished and to add insult to injury, an recently to add insult to injury the Manhattan bridge's southside tracks are out of commission making the once mighty Broadway subway a slow local meandering through the Montague Street tunnel.
FOR SHAME !!!
Bill Newkirk
I think he means the former Kent Av. plant, now soon to be demolished. I heard it used to power the Canarsie line, the Broadway El, and the upper portion of Myrtle Av, as well a few of the trolley lines, although most trolley lines were powered by a place called "Brooklyn Central" on the Gowanus canal.
These plants were all coal fired, and in the case of Kent Av, it was sold to Con Ed, which recently found its services no longer required.
Dont confuse these plants with substations. Kent Av and Brooklyn Central were true generating plants, not merely transformer banks and rotary converters.
Yep. And some of the coal deliveries to those plants along Kent Ave. were made by trains of hoppers powered by the old BEDT steam locomotive #16 now retired to the Long Island Railroad Museum.
Doug aka BMTman
WHos going to be at the Polo Grounds Shuttle walk tommorow?
At 20 years, I bet I'm the youngest one there. Where on the platform are we meeting?
For the full scoop, go to Upcoming Events on this site. Everything you need to know is right there.
And no, you won't be the youngest, by several years. Anon_e_mouse Jr. will be with me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/15/2000
BILL NEWKIRK will be there! Look for me wearing a reflective vest and yellow hardhat! I hope no more than 41 show up since I have a souvenir to give out to attendees. For those who attended the first tour (12/19) Polo Grounds Shuttle abandonment notices and a free current Newkirk Images postcard. Well the same and a couple of Xeroxed pages of vintage photos and description text.
Mark W. and I intended to make this a fun and interesting day. Don't forget the flashlights!
Bill Newkirk
Mark Feinman will be there. I'll also have an orange hardhat, and if I can figure a way out, it'll have a flashlight fastened on top of it!
--Mark
I'll be there. In fact I just stopped by my office in Manhattan and will be going down to the subway in a couple of minutes.
Anyone else frustrated with the Susan B Anthonys you get back in change from the Metrocard machines?
When I'm in Penn Station and I have to use the metrocard machine, I always go up to the Chase and trade in the Anthonys for paper. I don't like to carry Anthonys because they feel like quarters in my pocket, and they're the same color. I wouldn't want to lose 75¢ on the dollar by handing over an Anthony by accident.
I'm told the US Mint plans to rectify the situation by distributing gold-colored dollar coins with Sacajawea, the Lewis & Clark guide, on them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
> I don't like to carry Anthonys because they feel like quarters in my
> pocket
This is the common complaint but I say that maybe you haven't practiced enough. I get these all the time from the PATH machines and can always tell them apart in my pocket. My main complaint about the susiebuck is that when you try to use them, a lot of people haven't ever seen them and don't believe they're worth a dollar (the cafeteria employees where I used to work, for instance).
-Dave
Yeah, that's a big problem. BTW, see any SBAs with '1999' on them? With a replacement a year away, the government minted about $10M worth of 1999 SBAs due to a shortage. The end of the paper dollar is near. With the increasing reliance upon automation and vending machines, coins are easier on the system than bills. When I get them, I just feed them back into the machines eventually.
-Hank
[With the increasing reliance upon automation and vending machines, coins are easier on the system than bills]
That's certainly true. Unless a bill is somewhat crisp, many machines reject them. Coins are almost never rejected.
[Anyone else frustrated with the Susan B Anthonys you get back in change from the Metrocard machines?]
I can't stand them either. To avoid the problem, I now use my debit card rather than cash in the MVMs.
I use my credit card... and get United Airlines frequent flyer miles for riding the subway!!!
I use my credit card... and get United Airlines frequent flyer miles for riding the subway!!!
Can you get "frequent rider fares" to use on the subway for flying United Airlines? It should be a two-way street.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not yet... but I understand that the Eurostar (TGV between London and Paris) is joining the Star Alliance (United Airlines, Lufthansa, Singapore, Thai, etc.) so you will be able to earn frequent flyer miles while riding that train!!!
Whenever I have the right cash bill, I always use it in lieu of a credit card in the MVM just to get SBAs. I really enjoy it when I give them to people and they expect me to give them more money thinking they're quarters!
I wear holes in my pockets fast enough. I will NOT use those &@#^*& things!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have change pockets.
BTW, How do you carry small change?
A small, stiff leather coin pouch with tray. It will handle five or six dollars of miscellaneous coins easily but add one Susan and it becomes awkward. When I get stuck with them I simply put them in a different pocket and get rid of them as quickly as possible. Fortunately, the only time I'm likely to get them is when I buy stamps from the vending machine in our office, and when I move to a different building the end of next week that will stop - it has a "lunchtime" manned post office next to the cafeteria.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I find that annoying too. It's so easy to mistake a Susan B. with a quarter if you're quickly fumbling for change. The US Mint should have made the size ratios much greater -- or like you said, they should be a different color (which is coming soon?).
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, I find that annoying too. It's so easy to mistake a Susan B. with a quarter if you're quickly fumbling for change. The US Mint should have made the size ratios much greater -- or like you said, they should be a different color (which is coming soon?).
Doug aka BMTman
Prior to the SBA dollar, coin dollars were much larger. I don't know why they went to the small dollar in the first place. There were 5 generations of dollars before the SBA, all large.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The idea was for the SBA to replace the $1 bill. Aside from a pathelogic use of the $2 bill, imagine breaking a $5 bill and getting 4 cartwheels in change.
Our neighbors to the north have the right idea. The smallest Canadian bill is the $5. They have a bronze-colored $1 coin, known as the "loonie" (because it has a loon on one side [or both, depending on your opinion of the Queen :-)]) and a bi-metallic $2 coin, similar in style but significantly larger than a Garden State Parkway token, known as the "doughnut". Their coinage in general is much lighter than ours - pennies are the same and nickels are close, but the dimes, quarters, and dollars are much thinner - and consequently it's not that big a deal to carry $25 or $30 in coin.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their coinage in general is much lighter than ours - pennies are the same and nickels are close, but the dimes, quarters, and dollars are much thinner
There's a reason for that. When both countries minted sivler coins, the US used 90% silver, whereas the Canadians used 95% silver, the same as sterling. Even though both currencies were very close in value back then, the weight of the Cnandian coins had to be lighter due to the larger silver content.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>When both countries minted sivler coins, the US used 90% silver, whereas the Canadians used 95% silver, the same as sterling. Even
though both currencies were very close in value back then, the weight of the Cnandian coins had to be lighter due to the larger silver content.<<
I think the Canadian silver coins (including their 50 cent pieces) were 80% silver until 1967, when quarters and dimes went to 50% for part of 67 and part of 68. I think the earlier coins (prior to 1936(???)) may have been as high as 92.5%, but I have never heard of 95% in a circulating silver coin of Canada.
I think the Canadian silver coins (including their 50 cent pieces) were 80% silver until 1967, when quarters and dimes went to 50% for part of 67 and part of 68. I think the earlier coins (prior to 1936(???)) may have been as high as 92.5%, but I have never heard of 95% in a circulating silver coin of Canada.
I was told that Canadian silver is the same as sterling - 95%. I was told this in a coin shop. If the information was in error, I'd like to know. If you have any documentation to back up what you're saying, please share it with us. But, as far as I know, all Canadian silver was 95% and was minted through 1968. In 1969, Canada went to some alloy. You can definately tell its not silver. Wat you're saying about 80% silver doesn't add up, because US silver coins were heavier and were 90% silver. That would mean that Canadian money was worth alot less than US money. Today that holds true, but not back in the 1960's. The 2 currencies were about equal, give or take a few cents. If there's a credible web site that can back up what you're saying, post the URL. If you have credible printed material, scan it and put it on the net. I'd like to see it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/15/2000
Yeah but a few years down the road when the $1.00 bill is fazed out, our pockets will really be jingling !
Bill Newkirk
I read somewhere that the Treasury reneged on eliminating the dollar bill, so the new dollar coin will possibly go the way of the SBA as a coin to be avoided. If what I read is true, cashiers will avoid the coin because there is no place in a register to put them. Since they may be a problem in using them, and the bill is still issued, the public (which like 99 44/100 of the population avoids major change like the plague) will keep right on using them. So, the new dollar coin will become like the 50 cent piece and the SBA as coins nobody really wants to carry - too much trouble to use.
The ONLY way the new dollar will be widely accepted is to dump the bill. If that's been eliminated, another big government mistake is on the way.
I wonder what transit's take on the new coin will be.
Considering that a dollar no longer has the same value it once did (except at McDonald's) I don't see it as that big a deal. Most modern nations use coins for their first uint of 'whole' currency, since the bills wear out quickly. Belive me, the days of the dollar bill are numbered. While it costs more to mint a coin than it does to print a bill, $1 bills last about 18 months, whereas coins last over 20 years. The treasury has not yet decided on eliminated the single, and while it was initially an option in the act that created the new dollar coin, it wasn't there when the bill was signed.
-Hank
I have it on good authority that they call their $2 coin the 'Tooney'. ie, '2 Looneys'.
I also heard there's a secondary reason for the Loony. The coin was originally supposed to have a beaver on it, but a number of dies were 'lost' and they had to come up with a new design, lest someone start a new home business.
-Hank
Hank Eisenstein is right--the Canadians call the coins "Loonies" and "Toonies," deliberately so in popular speech, like the cartoons. One of the things I notice is that one rapidly accumulates $18 or $20 in coins, and the Loonies and Toonies get heavy. Since I cross the border a fair amount, I try to have one pocket of US coins and another of Canadian. If something is at par (bridge toll, for example), it's cheaper to use the Canadian.
One really intelligent thing the Canadians still do, and the US has just blown another chance at, is different colors for the paper money.
Maybe it will happen when we finally go metric . . . . . 8-)
I'm curious about whether all the transit ticket machines around the US will take the new dollar coin as well as the Susan B. Anthony dollars and whether we'll be getting change in a mix of SBAs and the Sacajaweas. Is there a nickname or short form yet for the new coin?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Bet it will be something like "saccy".
Why not just call it a Golden Dollar?
Besides "useless"?
As to the $2 coin nickname, I've heard both "twoonie" and "donut". I guess it depends where in Canada you are. I crossed in last month from Port Huron and stopped at a bank a few kilometers down the road to get some coin, and the teller used the term "donut" to refer to the $2 coin. When we crossed back to the States later that day at Fort Erie the young lady in the duty-free shop called it a "twoonie". Since this was my first trip across the border in several years I hadn't dealt with the coins before, and I just latched onto the first term I heard.
BTW, Canadian coins work perfectly in Garden State Parkway change baskets. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Garden State change baskets? Interesting.
The new gold-colored "Sacagawea" dollar coins are supposed to be introduced this March. "Wheel of Fortune" had a big mock-up of one on their set this past week. They are supposed to be the same size and weight as the SBA dollars, and have matching electrical properties as well, so that vending machines like the MVMs will treat them as equivalents. I expect the Anthony dollars will disappear within a few months of their introduction - by summer the MVMs (as well as commuter railroad ticket machines) will be dispensing just Sacagawea dollars for change.
01/15/2000
Kevin,
Recently I bought a 1 day Funpass at an MVM for $4.00. I inserted $5.00, got back the SBA. Since I had a regular Metrocard on me with $6.00 on it, I fed the card into the MVM added $1.50 to the card, inserted the SBA and 50 cents and wound up with $7.50 on the card.
I didn't move two paces from the machine when I off loaded that ugly looking "quarter wannabe". I avoid them like the plague. Same goes for the LIRR TVM's when the SBA's come back. It's off to the MVM when I get to Penn Station. Problem solved, I can sleep nights!
Bill Newkirk
You should meet me and exchange them for the cheap dollar BILLS and HILLARIES.
i always have trouble using bills in the tvm on metro-north and the lirr. at 30st in philly they "manned" ticket booths because of the high rate of failures.
01/16/2000
Kevin,
Is that the new currency printed on toilet paper?
Bill Newkirk
No way, toilet paper's much too valuable!
-Hank :)
Obviously the complaints about the Susan B. Anthony $$$'s have not been heard at the US mint. While they had only been produced between 1979 - 1981 (I've yet to see one from 1981), the mint has produced a 1999 Susan B. Anthony dollar that's starting to show up in the vending machines (including the LIRR).
The 1981 versions only exist in Uncirculated and Proof Sets of that year.
I've got one in my can. I also have a 1999. Basically, people haven't been re-using the SBAs, and the demand for them has skyrocketed.
-Hank
I have 2 mini-bags ($50 worth) of 1999-dated SBA's that I plan to circulate very soon....maybe on my next trip to New York, half of those being Denver mint...so look out for your change very soon.
When I get an SBA dollar coin, I never put in my change pocket with the other coins. To avoid confusion, I always put in in the main part of the wallet with the bills. It's never there very long, anyway, since I'll unload it ASAP, but at least it's next to the other currency where I'd expect a dollar to be.
--Mike
I would never do that as the whole purpose of not having to take out my wallet would be eliminated.
But your wallet would already be out because you would have had to have put a bill into the vending machine in the first place to get the SBA dollar as change. And on a subsequent purchase from a real live person, you would be going into your wallet to get a dollar bill to pay for something anyway, and there with all the paper dollars would be an SBA dollar just waiting to be disposed of.
--Mike
Even so, the amount of wallet use is reduced. If I were to get bills as change, then I would have to put them into the wallet and then take out the wallet to spend them. And I would use the coins for regular purchases anyway (I don't use machines often enough), I like it when people expect me to give them more money when I'm expecting them to give me change. It's part of my SBA (Superior Buck Attempt).
We get about 1,000 a week, mainly on our express runs. We are also seeiung the 1999 version.
Mr t__:^)
Someone at my job told me there is an unused passageway that physically connects the IND Jay St. station to the BMT Lawrence St. station. I've never heard of this. Does anyone know if it exist? If it does, why is it not being used. This transfer would be highly desirable, because of the lack of transfers from BMT to IND lines in Downtown Brooklyn.
I don't know about an existing tunnel. I do know that the MTA proposed linking the two stations, and now Lawrence Street Station is closed inbound for renovation. Maybe they are creating a transfer. Anyone know?
I think the station is limited to one way traffic because of an asbestos removal project which leaves no clearance for southbound trains to stop near the work area.
During the summer it was closed for an escalator removal project. My guess is the new escalator is now being installed.
If one exists, the only thing I could think of is that this connection is NOT for passenger use, but is some kind of maintainance or revenue collection passageway for employees only.
After all, both Lawrence and Jay have 'money train' drop-off platforms (the one at Jay is obvious -- a roll-gate across from the F train platform, southbound). I believe the Lawrence 'drop-off platform' is somewhere just outside the tunnel (which I would assume is on the Manhattan-bound side).
Doug aka BMTman
According to the latest Capital Plan, they are going to renovate that passage for passenger use. When they will start I have no idea. It will be for a BMT-IND connection.
Also, I was wondering if anyone knew if there is any possibility for a connection between Jay & Borough Hall.
-Harry
According to the latest Capital Plan, they are going to renovate that passage for passenger use. When they will start I have no idea. It will be for a BMT-IND connection.
Hallehluliah! It only took 60 years!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How many Money Trains to the Actually Have? and about how long does the train take to do the whole system?
How many Money Trains to the Actually Have? and about how long does the train take to do the whole system?
I haven't got the foggiest idea.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Can't tell you, but actually, the revenue collector (money trains) are a dying breed. Yes, they use it on the Queens IND for example, but use armored cars on the BMT Eastern Division.
I posted earlier on this: the money trains are being phased out and the MTA armoured trucks are taking there place around the system (this may have happanned already -- or is slowly being implemented).
I'm not sure whether it's being done for productivity reasons, or for better security measures, but the 'money train' is a dying breed indeed.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe there are four revenue collectors.They come out of Jamaica yard, 148St yard, 36St yard, and Corona yard.
01/15/2000
You mean a tunnel was built and never opened to the public? Sounds like the Franklin Shuttle Botanic Garden transfer arcade fiasco. Are there any mysterious passageways forgotten about? Oh well, better late than never.
Bill Newkirk
I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a list of money platforms throughout the system. I have knowledge of the better known and obvious ones but have always thought that there were many more then the few I know. Also, are there a garbage platforms other then in various Yards and 36th st/9th ave?
-Harry
I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a list of money platforms throughout the system. I have knowledge of the better known and obvious ones but have always thought that there were many more then the few I know. Also, are there a garbage platforms other then in various Yards and 36th st/9th ave?
-Harry
I would suggest not putting this information on the BB. I would suggest responding to this via e-mail. You'll just make it easy for some crackpot thief. If a Brinks truck can be robbed, is a money train exempt?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I didn't think it would really be feasible but I'll remember for the future when I post.
-Harry
That might not be a problem, since I recall hearing from someone that revenue collection is no longer done via subway. I believe the collecting is done with trucks that make the rounds of the various station booths throughout the city. Again, I'm getting this from a second source, so don't quote me on it.
Doug aka BMTman
That might not be a problem, since I recall hearing from someone that revenue collection is no longer done via subway. I believe the collecting is done with trucks that make the rounds of the various station booths throughout the city. Again, I'm getting this from a second source, so don't quote me on it.
Doug aka BMTman
With the Metrocard, revenue collection just might become a thing of the past altogether. This is just my assumption. So don't quote me on this either.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Nope, they still do it. Saw a set of 'revenooers' at 96st Saturday night.
-Hank
[I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a list of money platforms throughout the system. I have knowledge of the better known and obvious ones but have always thought that there were many more then the few I know. Also, are there a garbage platforms other then in various Yards and 36th st/9th ave?]
The only money platform I know of is just past Lawrence Street on the Manhattan-bound N/R. "Platform" actually is much too grand a word. All you'll see is a metal roll-up door that's maybe ten feet wide.
There is a similar roll-up door in the wall at Jay St. station where the southbound "F" stops. Could this also be used for "money trains"? Both presumably connect to TA headqurters at 370 Jay St.
If that building really is for sale, then I guess so are the days of the "money trains".
TA headqurters at 370 Jay St.
If that building really is for sale, then I guess so are the days of the "money trains".
The buidling is for sale? I didn't know that. Where will the TA be moving to?
Suppsedly to Manhattan. I believe 2 Bway, which is near the Bowling Green/South Ferry Area.....
3TM
They've moved to 2 Broadway already. It replaces the Randalls Island and 10 Columbus Circle MTA facilities. That's also enough room to consolidate the NYCT to that building and 130 Livingston.
This afternoon i was driving somewhere in Brooklyn & i went to 36st Yard to take some picture. I took a picture of N1 Loc & right next to N1 Loc i saw a Redbird R30 #84xx right next to building & i couldn't see the number because of big white truck block the number was 84xx. What the number of that R30???
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I believe it is 8435.
You aren't the only one that found some R30's over the weekend.
I fund anoter bunch out here in the Los Angeles area, more of the ones that came out for movie filming. This bunch is down near the harbor area in a junkyard. They'll probably be gone before long, as ever last one of them was cut in half. Thee were six cars total.
Naporano must be truly disappointed.
I dunno why Naporano would be disappointed -- the cars were sold to movie production companies a few years ago and would up out here on the west coast. Why ship them all the way back to Newark?
Because I bought some stock in Nimco before they merged with Nappy. I am a railfan with a vested interest in as many of 1400 cars going to one vendor. Scary, huh? A Buff who likes scrapped equipment?
I always thought NIMCO and Naporano were one and the same. Someone once told me that NIMCO stood for Naporano Iron & Metals Co. Were they two separate companies?
Would anyone here ride the subway north of West 100th (around Amsterdam Avenue) on the upper west side? Are there times I should avoid the subway (ie such as after 9:00pm?) I will be visiting New York and am planning staying at the Youth Hostel around this area.
I would appreciate any help as I come from Sydney, Australia, where all our trains have two security guards riding after 8pm and where I never need to worry about safety.
Thanks
Welcome to NY mate, where our subway is the hell down under. Our famous transit police department was taken over by a greedy mayor years ago and we don't have two cops per train after 8PM, we have two per zip code. Actually according to the newspapers, NYC is safer now than in years past but having worked for the subway for over a decade, I'll make you a promise you won't see a cop on your train. Good luck.
That area is pretty safe because Columbia University is around there. I've been on the Broadway Local as late as 2AM around there and I'm still alive.
01/15/2000
Be on the safe side, don't travel alone in deserted areas. Safety in numbers also helps. Maybe the same thing can go for above the subway on the streets.
Bill Newkirk
Stick to the subway cars where the conductor is; try to look like you belong in NYC; and 8 or 9 pm shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't be there late night, but other than that, stay on main streets, near Columbia U. is fine any time.
You are safe on the trains any time until after midnight, perhaps later, anywhere in the City.
The big question is the STATIONS. That's where bad things can happen.
I can't answer for the stations in this area, but my guess is the Columbia station (116th St) gets enough evening traffic to be relatively secure.
I agree. I've riden the A train to 168th Street at 11 PM. Just stay where the conductor or motorman is. The real place where you have to be careful is, as Larry said, on the platform. Especially at at any station north of 145 Street where all the token booths are on the mezzanine level and you have to go downstairs to get the train. Even at 3:00 PM, they are kind of deserted. Just stand around the token booth, and ride in the same car as the conductor which is usuallly the 5th car on the A train, and the 4th car on the C train. And be aware of the environment around you.
Gidday Jason,
I used to live on 144th Street between Amsterdam and Broadway. Some areas you definately need to stay away from at night. The closer you get towards 100th street, the safer it gets. While the subways are generally fine in that area. Still it's best to never look like a tourist, one can become a target that way.
By the way, I'm Australian. I'm from Canberra, but when I last lived in Australia it was in Kings Cross.
E-mail directly at abontjer@hotmail.com for more detailed information. I will be happy to show you around New York when you come by. I still live in Manhattan on the Lower East Side.
Allan
The Youth Hostel is at Amsterdam between 103rd and 104th Streets. Use the #1 train to the 103rd Street station. The subway stop is at 103rd and Broadway, which is a short block to the hostel entrance. There are signs in the station directing you to the closest exit to the hostel. If you take this exit, you do not have to cross Broadway.
The immediate area and especially Broadway are pretty safe. The hostel is open 24 hours. They have resident security and the local police precinct is just two blocks away. I've been there at a lot of odd ball hours and have had no problems.
A serious subject warrants some serious answers as well as a few silly answers
1. (serious) I wonder whether people here would consider the IRT to be safer in general up to 116th Street since the stations are not as cavernous as the IND trains up Amsterdam. Frankly, the IRT might serve more well to do people who live west of Broadway. Most of these people are of no physical danger to people, although some who are engaged in the financial industries are killing this country in other ways.
2. ( silly ) I have personally found that even when I am alone, laughing out loud to myself creates an aura that keeps most people at a distance. If you try this ploy, be sure to bring a mirror and stare constantly into it while you're laughing, otherwise people might take offense and think that you are laughing at them.
3. ( so-so ) Do you have a pet kangaroo or koala who you could bring along with you on the trip. This would ensure that you would always be surrounded by curious people.
4. ( silly ) How far above West 100th Street did you mean? There are parts of Westchester County north of New York City where it is so safe, that motorists do not need to put iron gates around their car windows when they leave their cars parked at night.
5. ( silly ) Check with the Visitors Convention Bureau when you arrive, and see if they can provide you with local gang chapters of any of the following gangs: Wall Street Wizards Day Trader Dukes
Currency Traitors.
6. ( serious ) Take heed of what has been suggested here as to riding in the middle or front car of the train, avoid waiting on empty platforms late at night, and have a good idea of where you are going so that you don't have a bewildered look about you. With those things in mind, be sure to have a great time in the city. There is so much to do and enjoy here.
And if you're here next Thursday, remember, it's a full moon that night, and heypaul will be in top form :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A serious subject warrants some serious answers as well as a few silly answers
1. (serious) I wonder whether people here would consider the IRT to be safer in general up to 116th Street since the stations are not as cavernous as the IND trains up Amsterdam. Frankly, the IRT might serve more well to do people who live west of Broadway.]
Very much so. The IRT stations become more hazardous in Harlem and that's compounded by the fact that they become more cavernous, but below 116th Street there are always lots of students and yuppies on the trains, and most of the stations are models of good sight lines and openess.
[2. ( silly ) I have personally found that even when I am alone, laughing out loud to myself creates an aura that keeps most people at a distance. If you try this ploy, be sure to bring a mirror and stare constantly into it while you're laughing, otherwise people might take offense and think that you are laughing at them.]
When my brother wanted to get rid of the person sitting next to him, he pretended to scratch himself and muttered about lice . . .
[6. ( serious ) Take heed of what has been suggested here as to riding in the middle or front car of the train, avoid waiting on empty platforms late at night, and have a good idea of where you are going so that you don't have a bewildered look about you. With those things in mind, be sure to have a great time in the city. There is so much to do and enjoy here.]
Crooks really do look for people carrying bags, looking at maps, and innocently asking directions of kids with baggy pants and backwards baseball caps (like them). Conversely, if they know you're on to them, they'll wait for an easier mark.
[Would anyone here ride the subway north of West 100th (around Amsterdam Avenue) on the upper west side? Are there times I should avoid the subway (ie such as after 9:00pm?) I will be visiting New York and am planning staying at the Youth Hostel around this area.
I would appreciate any help as I come from Sydney, Australia, where all our trains have two security guards riding after 8pm and where I never need to worry about safety.]
I road that line for years and know the neighborhood well. Stick to the 1 and 9 on the 7th Avenue. Below 125th Street, trains and stations are safe at any hour--in the case of 125th Street and above safety is more variable, but you'll probably have no reason to go up there unless you want to visit the Cloisters, the Bronx Zoo, or the Botanical Gardens, which can be done during the day. The 2 and 3 are not as safe north of 96th Street, and the 8th Avenue is not as safe even in your neighborhood and has some bad stations, so rather than figuring out which they are I'd say avoid it.
You'll be using the 103rd Street station which was my station for 10 years during the high crime years, and it is completely safe at any hour.
I know the hostel you'll be staying in, and it's on the west edge of some projects a block or so into a seedy neighborhood. The general rule where you are is that the neighborhood is safe west of Broadway, but I wouldn't really worry about that block you have to travel. Don't go East from where you are, however. There's no reason to do so, except to catch the A to the American Museum of Natural History, and the risk increases as you do. You can go East further up, at Columbia, and further down, but it's really best to know these border neighborhoods block by block and person by person, because in Manhattan a single block can make the difference between Yuppie Haven and Crack City. I imagine you'll want to visit the Columbia Campus, the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, and maybe Grant's Tomb since they're only a few blocks away, but the safest thing to do is to approach them from Broadway (110th Street for the Cathedral, 116th for the University) rather than walking along Amsterdam.
That being said, I've erred on the side of caution, because visitors don't know who to avoid. But the City is remarkably safe now since Giuliani instituted the death penalty for being poor--I doubt you'll be bothered at all if you don't walk through Harlem at 4 AM.
I used to ride that train all night up to 116th St.; you'll be fine, especially if you follow the good advice you've gotten so far. The only tip I'd add is the one they give every Columbia freshman: make sure the train says "1" or "9" on it. (The 9 is a variant of the 1 that runs during business hours, but both make all stops below 137th St.) At 96th St. the 2 and 3 trains turn east and wind up in central Harlem, which is pretty far from the hostel, and can be a bit of a shock late at night. Don't be fooled by a 2 train on the local track, which happens late at night and during temporary re-routings.
You can also walk up Broadway from 96th St. at any time of night (or down from 110th St., where they have a very good 24-hour bagel shop). The folks at the hostel will give you more advice about particular streets, I'm sure, but you can feel confident about the neighborhood in general. Have a great visit!
Lots of good tips were given here. I worked at Columbia Univ. for 11 years & agree with most that was said. The only thing I'll add is after dark don't walk around alone, because you're asking for trouble.
Other then that enjoy you NYC stay & make sure you catch some "Red Birds" & a Slant 40 before they're gone.
Mr t__:^)
i live toward the top of the 1 line (231st st) and i feel comfortable riding on teh 1 at all times, even though it goes through some rather bad neighborhoods..
Will RCIs carry laptops instead of toolbags when the new cars are put into service?
Laptops with an accesory called an RS-232 port are standard issue for industrial maintenance personnel. Perhaps Josh (an electrical engineer) or Steve (a TA management person involved in subway car maintenance) could add to this discussion
Sadly, the RCI of my day (god does that make me sound old) is gone. Today, RCIs, for the mostpart, just document and report incidents. Part of it that the equipment has become much better and there are very few real failures. Also, te lack of those failures cause the RCIs to become 'rusty'. Another rason is because the system has become flooded with TSSs. Unfortunately, if a train breaks down, they are no better prepared to ready the train for movement. Finally, since the R-142s will be under warranty, it'll be a long time before RCIs have much to do with the new cars, on the road.
As for the RS232 ports - all of the NYCT speedometers have RS232 ports now. This was originally meant to be part of 'black-box' type event recorders that would be down-loadable. The ports are, as yet, unused. Data from the E-cam controllers is downloaded into laptops already (not through an RS232 port). It would seem that the RCI with a laptop (or at least the car inspector) is already becoming a reality.
01/15/2000
I'll be in town Monday (1/17) and may venture into the Bronx to check out the R-142's. All I ask is if someone out there knows when any kind of testing will commence so I can photograph them. If someone on the inside knows anything, let us all know. I assume all testing will be on the new Dyre test track and not the center track north of East 180th St.
Thanks,
Bill Newkirk
On this so-far snowless winter, it has beeen a great help to look at the January picture on the subway calendar, to remind me of what winter used to be.
Will it snow in NYC next Tuesday? If so, I plan to go to NYC to take subway pictures in the snow.
Chaohwa
God, I hope so!, We haven't had a good snowfall, in what is it now? 2/3/4 years now?
I just watched the Weather Channel. It forcasts that there will be light snow next Saturday in NYC.
Chaohwa
Light snow? LIGHT SNOW? Argggggghh, This is ridiculous, I'm hoping, I'm waiting for Heavy Snow, a snowfall that you'll have dig a TUNNEL just to get to your mailbox or newspaper. A snowfall to end this draught, I am sick of spending Christmas and January, February snowless, this keeps up, I'm moving back to South Bend (Indiana).
I am also hoping for heavy snow. Last year there was some moderate snow. I had a lot of fun taking pictures on the snowy Amtrak's NEC Maryland section.
The only thing I haven't done is take NYC subway pictures in the snow.
Blame the greenhouse effect. Winter without snow is indeed strange.
Chaohwa
I agree its very strange, I remember more than a couple years back that we had tons of snow.
The only thing I miss in moving out here to New York is the Lake Effect in the great lakes area.
Not to be a contrarian, but ... as far as I am concerned, the only difference between snow and another substance defined by a four-letter word beginning in "s" is the color. Down home in North Carolina we usually manage to appease the snow gods and keep that nasty stuff away from us; I'm hoping that our influence in that regard extends at least as far north as NYC again this year (and next year, and ...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmm, I think I might take a vacation in Chicago, come next Winter.
If we don't get snow this week of all weeks, I think we'll have a pretty much snow-free winter.
I miss it too...I think I'll retire in Albany. By then global warming will hit them too though.
New York tends to go through several mild winters, and then-POW!! We were relatively snowless from 1984 through 1993, and then during January and February 1994 we were assaulted endlessly by ice, bitter cold and two huge snowstorms within two days of each other. We can't forget the winter of 1995-96, the snowiest on record. We were already sick of snow by Christmas, the first white one most of us had, and then in the second week of January, twenty-one inches. (Surprisingly, the trains ran decently in the aftermath.) This was followed by a long series of lesser storms all the way through the end of March.
We've had three mild winters in a row, so we may be due for a bad one. This January cold snap may be a warning of bigger and worse things to come next month. Who can say?
Well, Howard, I can say.
And what I can say is that every winter is different, and periods within winters are different. In general, there is no rhyme or reason (don't believe the media hype about "La Nina."). It is a fact of nature that the weather is highly variable, and mostly random in nature.
One week's cold snap does not mean bigger and worse things will come. They might -- then again, they might not.
The so-called "normal" is not what is supposed to happen... rather, it is the average of a lot of extreme events over the past 125 or so years.
So you say you remember when you were young in the 60s and 70s we had much snowier winters? Yeah, true in some respects. (We were shorter then :;)... however decades are artifical boundaries. Cut 10-year periods from 55-64, 65-74, 75-84, and 85-94 and I'll show you much different trends than using the "formal" decades.
NOW... back on topic... I expect to be in NYC this weekend for Transit and Weather Together. I also hope to be at the NYD ERA meeting Friday evening - and I hope to see lots of SubTalkers there! I'll wear my WCBS Newsradio-88 hat.
don't believe the media hype about "La Nina."
I don't know about that. El Nino seemed to be an upset for weather patterns around the globe. Now, its a fact that we're in La Nina, the opposite of El Nino. We will see what la Nina brings. As predicted last summer, we had a pretty active hurricane season. Fact is, you folks in NY got more of Floyd than I was supposed to get here in South Florida. So, lets see what La Nina brings.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well, I'm not going to turn this into WeatherTalk (there is a "Wx-Talk"). Suffice it to say that El Nino and La Nina (which, by the way, are NOT weather events - they are above average, and below average (respectively) periods of water temperature in the western South Pacific. This translates to above/below average transport of heat & moisture to the atmosphere in the boundary layer (first few thousand feet above the sea surface). What this means for global weather patterns is still very much a debate in the scientific community; El Nino and La Nina periods have been occurring for centuries, if not millennia; it's just recently that the media got ahold of the subject. Just because an individual can relate specific weather events over a month or season to the occurrence of these phenomena does not mean there is a cause-and-effect, and it is not a predictive tool for specific weather events. At best, these oceanographic phenomena can be related to patterns in the upper atmosphere's jet streams which can tilt temperature and/or precipitation one way or the other from the long-term averages over long periods of time. The fact that a single system, such as Floyd affected NYC more than Florida is irrelevant; Floyd would have done just what he did El Nino, La Nina, or No Ninao.
I just returned from a week-long conference on this and other weather subjects (the Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society), where I had the opportunity to ride the entire Blue and Red Lines in the LA area. WHEW! Back on topic.
Actually, the way things are going, we'll have to change the title of this thread to WHAT is snow :-)
What we're seeing this year, is the La Nina effect. This winter has definately been a La Nina. What the La Nina does, is push the jet stream north. Rule of thumb is usually when you're south of the jet stream, then you're warm. If you're north, then you're cold. What we've seen over the past week, was a troph develop in here in the northeast, which allowed the artic air from Canada to funnel through and affect us. The winds are so bad because of the Alberta Clippers. They're disorganized low pressure systems that originate in Alberta, and spread eastward. By the time they reach the east, most of the moisture is drawn out of them, that we experience light snow showers.
But, as I mention further down, Alberta Clippers can become very strong when they reach us.
Back to the winds. The winds are so bad because, after each Clipper system passes by, it intensifies over the Atlantic. The isobars of the high pressure that will move in over us, and the low pressure that just moved away from us, get packed very close, because high pressure winds rotate clockwise, where as low pressure winds rotate counter clockwise. This packs the isobars, and the more packed the isobars are, the colder the windier it is. That's why, everytime a storm system moves out, it gets windy. Expect that Friday.
For those who want snow, well you might just get some. What we're looking at right now, is an Alberta clipper starting to form over Alberta. What we're expecting, is for that clipper to intensify, and by the time it reaches us, we could be talking about a snow storm. What happens is, the Alberta clipper, loses a lot of moisture in the Great Lakes region. To intensify, it needs a large body of water. The Great Lakes, are not big enough to really strengthen it too much. What it needs is the Atlantic Ocean. What looks like will happen on Thursday, is: the center of low pressure from the clipper, will pass to our south. It will head over the Atlantic ocean, where it will pick up moisture. Then it will move north. Depending on where exactly the low is when it passes us, is how much snow we'll get. If it passes directly to our east, we'll get a lot of snow. If it passes to far to our east, we'll get little snow, and The cape Cod region, including Boston will get packed with snow. If the low moves too far to our east, we stay dry. Right now, it is looking as if, the low will move slightly to the east which means that we have the possibility of receiving measurable accumulation(over 2 inches). This could change by Thursday. Yesterday, we were thinking that the low would move too far to the east to really get more than 2 inches. Each time we check, the low moves closer and closer to the east.
It can also be bad if the low comes too close. The counter clockwise winds could bring in the warm atlantic moisture. The result would be: Snow to rain or sleet back to snow. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I am not a meteorologist but i do know a great deal about weather. Let's hope for snow. Sorry for any mistakes in spelling or grammar, i am typing fast.
Clark Palicka
Nice discussion, Chris. Wanna work my shift this weekend? Then I can ride the rails all day and all night!
When you say it, it really comes!
There is light snow in the DC area today. More snow is on the way!
Chaohwa
When you say it, it really comes!
There is light snow in the DC area today. More snow is on the way!
Chaohwa
I read on the Internet that there is going to be a big snowstorm:
New Computer Upgrades Forecasts
Updated 3:33 PM ET January 18, 2000
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - The National Weather Service dedicated its new supercomputer Tuesday with a warning that major East Coast cities face the threat of snow and severe cold late this week.
A low pressure area developing off the Carolinas is expected to bring snow from Washington to New England on Thursday night, followed by brutally cold conditions on Friday and into Saturday, said Louis W. Uccellini, director of the National Centers for Environmental Prediction.
He said snow totals could range from 2 inches around Washington to more than a foot on Long Island and to the north.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If it's a small snowstorm, then it should happen late this week or next week. If it's a big one, it should happen in early February.
01/15/2000
Karl B,
You know, I used to live at Newkirk Ave, one stop away. the Standards were allways my favorite. looking at that photo tells me that in a sense, they were returning some 6 or 7 years after the R-27's and R-32's sent them to the Eastern Division. I wish I was there that same day the picture was taken and seeing the old Standards breezin' though to say hello.
The funny thing was after the Standards and D-Types left the Brighton, a different type of pre-war car (R1-4) debuted (Chrystie St revision). Those Standards in the January photo don't seem fazed by those snowflakes...............Sweet memories !!
Bill Newkirk
Bill,
There is just something about seeing the old trains in a snow setting that gets to me. I remember some BU's laid up at 111th St, on the center track many years ago in a heavy snowstorm. The picture in my mind is still great. If I only had a camera in those days....
Did you happen to see the eBay auction of the 2000 Subway Calendar. The bidding was up to $16.05, and it wasn't over yet!
Till Later,
Karl
01/16/2000
Karl,
Yes Karl, I saw it o E-Bay. Doesn't bother me.
Bill Newkirk
Too bad that all we have right now are memories. Hopefuly one of the ones that has been saved will be ruinning again real soon so we can hear her groan.
Mr t__:^)
01/15/2000
Last week I checked out the seemingly loooong sidelined Canal Street (Manhattan Bridge) station. It seems that the once torn up tracks have returned, new and in new concrete roadbed. Also the northbound platform, new wall tiling is proceeding although slow. Even one section of lighting was out replaced by temporary lighting.
It looks like the TA is trying to finish this station, maybe in conjunction with the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge tracks. If you're in the area, check it out, see what you think. Does this long closure set a record for a station closed and after a void reopened for service? 1988-2000....yikes! 12 years !
Bill Newkirk
More like 10. Don't forget the "tease" of Bway Express service via the bridge back in late 1990.
Its really a question of semantics but I don't think it can count for a record since it really isn't a station. Just a small part of a much bigger station that has never been fully closed. Even that platform has never really been closed. It has been used for transfers.
I was there today, and it definately appears that the MTA plans on reopening the station..new tracks have been layed and the walls are being retiled. Will the Q switch back once the bridge reopens? and if this is the case will the line "switch families" nack with the N/R?
01/15/2000
Recently I've seen some new SubTalkers post here for the first time. I thought I would bring this to their attention and other interested that the 2000 New York City Subways calendar is still available.
For those new here it's a full color 9" X 12" full color calendar of vintage and contemporary equipment photos. If you are interested, click on my E-mail address for ordering instructions. Also any other questions, use my E-mail address and not this site.
Bill Newkirk
... and it's a great one!!!
--Mark
Bill,
I have a question about older calendars. What pictures are in the '96 calendar....the one that has the cover of the R110 A/B with the Lo-v. -Nick
Standard, D type, Lo-V, Q type, R-7, 11, 14, 16, 27, 30, 32, 33, 36.
Might even be a photo of Bill amoung the three kids on the platform as a Standatd aproaches in 1958.
(I have '94 thru 2000, plus current LIRR & WABCO calendars ... let other folks take the pictures)
Mr t__:^)
But then, aren't they all?
If you look on www.newsradio88.com, they are reporting a 40 percent increase in subway delays in December. It was bad then.
But we keep getting stuck on the train much more often even now than before the strike. I take a variety of lines, walking up over to the Brigton, down to the R/M, and up to the 2/3 in addition to the ususal F to the A/C. The service has been terrible.
Perhaps after telling the workers to do a lousy job, the union cannot (or will not) stop it. Perhaps this will go on indefinately, just for the fun of it, despite the large raise. Why not? If you are a monopoly, you can screw the customer, so why not do it?
I would expect that many transit workers are still "demoralized" after recieving only a 12% pay raise. Hopefully, it will wear off over time.
Why not look at all the givebacks in the contract before you talk
Please do not misinterpret the report. A late train does not necessarilly constitute a mechanical breakdown. In fact, this was not the case. While delays may have been up in December, the MDBF was also up, indicating that the delays were due to things other than mechanical failure. Trains are late for a variety of reasons but over 60% of the delays to service are due to CPM (Capital Projects) construction projects. In addition, delays due to vandalism are going up. Now that we've had a sudden cold snap, I'd expect that the number of delays this month will also increase. Most of the increase this month will be weather related.
The MTA Website indicates that from 10 PM on January 28 through 5AM on February 28 there will be NO C trains and that the E train will take its place in Brooklyn. Does anybody know why? And won't more cars be needed since the E train runs more frequently than the C train?
The crossover at the WTC terminal is being replaced. The E needs a new southern terminal, and it's being extended to Euclid. The C is being sacrificed. It's cars will supplement the E train's fleet and there will be enough cars to maintain service.
What then happens to local service along Central Park West? Will the B run more frequently? Will the A run local earlier in the evening? And what about weekend service on CPW?
01/15/2000
(E) trains return(one month only) on the Fulton street subway, DEJA VU ?? What if a R-46 shows up on the (E), first time a R-46 plied the rails on the Fulton Street subway since the JFK Express ? I know there were R-46's on the (A) in 1980 during that R-46 cracked truck fiasco. OK railfans, get those cameras ready, here we go again !
Bill Newkirk
And you'll probably see R38's re-appear on the Queens IND as well.
There will be some additional rush hour B service along CPW. On weekends B trains will run along CPW to 168/Broadway. The major inconvenience is for CPW riders who ride from betw 72 and 116 to destinations along 8th Ave below 59th St. They will have to transfer to the A at 59 or to the E at 7 Av/53 to continue downtown along 8th Ave.
Most people who use the CPW IND line to get to stations below 50th St. on the 8th Ave. line usually switch to the A anyway.
Usually the E's are routed via the R line to Whitehall Street when work is done along the 8th Av corridor. I wonder what prompted this change.
That's usually done during nightime work. Routing the E onto the BMT Bway line 24 hours a day for an entire month is not an option.
The C won't run because the MTA is not going to be able to use part of the WTC station because of renovations. I don't know what there going to do about cars- It should be pretty easy to do whatever tranferring of cars needed.
-Harry
If one were giving an award for the station designed the worst, City Hall would be Philadelphias winner. What other stations do you think fit that category?
72nd St, IRT is too narrow. The Nostrand Ave. IND station is built on 2 levels, for some dumb reason, negating it's use as a crossover.
Times Sq., Fulton St./Bway Nassau and Canal St. are the most confusing stations because of their maze of tunnels and ramps which can easily confuse people. However, since these stations conect lines that were seperate entities during their early years, this is understandable.
Honorable mention for South Ferry on the IRT, being built on a sharp curve meaning it cannot be extended to accomodate a full length train.
[72nd St, IRT is too narrow. Honorable mention for South Ferry on the IRT, being built on a sharp curve meaning it cannot be extended to accomodate a full length train.]
In fairness to the IRT, the stations were designed for shorter trains and smaller crowds, and should have been properly renovated. Biggest mistake on the original IRT: curved platforms.
You can thank Parsons for that. His desire to make the IRT useless as a freight conduit (as many city planners wanted) led to the curved platforms and the decision to use the narrower el-car standards.
It wasn't his desire it was Belmont's desire. Parsons was forced to work with that.
But hey, he invented the four track system!
Actually, it was Parsons desire. He didn't want freight trains "messing" up his subway line. I'm not sure what Belmont thought.
Actually, it was Parsons desire. He didn't want freight trains "messing" up his subway line. I'm not sure what Belmont thought.
Hey, I wouldn't want freight trains messing up my subway either. When I build my layouts, I'll make sure to keep the freight train (steam engine, of course) off of the el.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And if I include a subway tunnel on my dream layout, steam engines will be banned - except for my 1946 and 1947 era locos with the smoke unit in the tender, which can be turned off.
Getting back to the original thread, the Contract One line followed whatever street it was built along. At Union Square, the line leaves its alignment with Park Ave. South and lines up with what's left of 4th Ave. It probably could have been built in a straight line through that area. I like to think of it as a lesson learned which, thankfully, was not repeated on Dual Contracts lines. Virtually all Dual Contracts stations are straight, or have very slight curves.
Parsons also got New Yorkers used to taking express trains. The FAQ pamphlet put out by the IRT even went so far as to suggest taking a local to the next express stop and catching an express. The rest is history.
[You can thank Parsons for that. His desire to make the IRT useless as a freight conduit (as many city planners wanted) led to the curved platforms and the decision to use the narrower el-car standards.]
Interesting
I don't believe that Belmont & Co. planned on curved platforms (like 14th St.) Alot of that was due to the foundation of buildings that the station was built between (or abutted). Most rapid transit companies would prefer building in a straight line as it is easier and probably cheaper.
Doug aka BMTman
[I don't believe that Belmont & Co. planned on curved platforms (like 14th St.) Alot of that was due to the foundation of buildings that the station was built between (or abutted). Most rapid transit companies would prefer building in a straight line as it is easier and probably cheaper.]
See the other comments about Parsons and Belmont. But the platforms on the H extensions are mostly straight (and the tunnels are full width).
72nd St, IRT is too narrow. The Nostrand Ave. IND station is built on 2 levels, for some dumb reason, negating it's use as a crossover.
Times Sq., Fulton St./Bway Nassau and Canal St. are the most confusing stations because of their maze of tunnels and ramps which can easily confuse people. However, since these stations conect lines that were seperate entities during their early years, this is understandable.
Honorable mention for South Ferry on the IRT, being built on a sharp curve meaning it cannot be extended to accomodate a full length train.
IMHO, Penn in NY is pretty bad too.
I actually don't mind 72nd street that much. But the transfer from the numbers to the A/C/E at 42nd is pretty bad.
I'd say worst LIRR one would be either Glen Street or Flatbush Ave
I'm not sure what the worst MN or NJT one would be.
City Hall in Philly does suck, as do lots of their regional rail ones.
what gets me is how in many other cities this ONE OPERATOR operation how does the motorman
motorwoman see all the way down the back of the train ??? ITS DANGEROUS !!!!
( my opinion )
In Philly, this is not so bad. (IMHO)
First, there are no 10-car trains like NYC. 6-car trains are the norm here. All stations are straight-platform - no curves on platforms, either. Plus the MFL has three CCTV cameras on each platform, which the TO can view from a monitor inside the cab. BSS has no cameras, but they have full-width cabs, and the short trains and straight platforms that I mentioned. Plus we simply don't have the extreme overcrowding like you see often in NYC.
Here it works great. In NYC, it would probably be different.
On the BSS express, OPTO is not too bad. Trains are 5 cars long (not 6, Î hear Fern Rock cannot hold 6) and often it takes operators a while to close the doors. The BSS would have been a better candidate for the TVs though, with no general rule for platform style (when operating on the correct track, excluding terminals, Locals are 13 are island or left side platforms, 8 are outside or right side platforms).
On PATCO, I have seen T/Os close the doors without looking out the window at all when trains run on the wrong track. If this was acceptable for all stations, perhaps PATCO could be upgraded to ZPTO.
[On PATCO, I have seen T/Os close the doors without looking out the window at all when trains run on the wrong track. If this was acceptable for all stations, perhaps PATCO could be upgraded to ZPTO.]
Any line can be upgraded to ZPTO with the proper safeguards--just look at automatic elevators. A properly designed ZPTP train is actually safer than a manually operated one, since conductors can't see everything, and a well designed door won't let the train move if someone or something is stuck in it. And if track doors are added, it's much safer, since there's no chance of someone falling or being pushed on the track.
How many other cities run the train lengths than NYCTA does?
"Maybe" Chicago runs trains that long. BART in San Francisco does during peak periods. But nobody else does.
How many other cities have platforms/station designed like NYCTA does?
(I'm talking curved platforms, VERY close platform edge clearances, etc.)
I don't think I've seen a curved platform on a subway system ever, other than New York City. I may be wrong, but offhand, cannot think of any. Thee are some curved platforms on on light-rail systems that I know of, bu there we're back to 1 or 2 cars on a train, and the cabs are equipped with adequate mirrors.
And, from what I have read around the WEB, there aren't many other cities around the world that have more than one person operating a train. (Toronto and London come to mind, though.) And some cities' opeations are totally automatic with NO on-board personnel (i.e. Vancouver, British Columbia's "Skytrain")
Add Paris Métro's Ligne 14 (also called as "Méteor") to that list...Just opened sometime late summer/early fall of 1998.
Do these lines have cabs on all cars for emergency or yard operation?
The Paris Line 14 doesn't have any kind of cab: there's a big picture window in the front, and the rest of the train is fully articulated, so you can look straight back to the last car. There must be a manual control console behind a panel somewhere, but since you'd never need it in passenger service there is no enclosed cab.
The Docklands Light Rail portion of the London Underground is also automated in a similar fashion. Three large windows on the front of the lead car with seats facing the windows, presumably for railfans. Only bad thing I can say about it was that all of the cars reeked of horse manure and that the car sometimes waits longer than desired at some stations.
Here in Chicago, the most we run is 8-car trains. Yes, there are several stations that are curved here, although none are on a severe curve. Stations that are on curves have TV cameras and monitors so the train operator can see all cars.
OPTO really sucks, though. Used to be that the doors popped open as soon as the train stopped, but now, it can take up to 10 seconds, if it's a slow driver. The fact that a lot of stations are island platforms, so the motorman has to cross over, doesen't help either. Also, not all OPTO cars have been outfitted with full-width cabs yet, so not only does the motorman have to crossover, he/she also has to fumble with putting the key into the control box.
-Jacob
(OPTO = door slow to open)
It should be possible to install sensors that determine if the T/O has lined up the train properly in the station, then pop the doors open the instant the train stops. The same system could sound a warning if the T/O of a short train were to mistakely try to open the doors with the rear car still in the tunnel.
The cost would be an occasional incorrect refusal to open because the sensor is dirty or something. But it might save time overall.
BTW, I think you'd have to nominate the F to M/R change at 9th Street and 4th Avenue as one of the most horrible designed. And who decided to put Smith-9th so far up in the air, instead of spacing the stations so you had lower ones on either side?
AH Yes! SMith and 9th. Originally this was supposed to be an underground station but one of two stories happened:
1- too expensive
2- Bad soil conditions
Either way- Hylan was forced to go with Eleveated.
4th Avenue- According to Joe Cunningham the only reason the transfer was built is that it was promised during a fare increase. He agrees that most people use it going from IND to BMT rather than the other way. The two lines are perpendicular to each other and with two lines both of which have four tracks it takes a strange design to accomodate a transfer. (Remember- when the lines were built, they werfe runm by two different entities.)
Ah - 4th Avenue / 9th Street. Not for the cardiologically challenged. 84 Steps from the BMT platform to the IND platform. And they can't put an escalator link in there due to the layout of the place. Whew!
Wayne
London Underground has a number of stations that have curved platforms - Bank on the Central comes to mind, some of the stations on the Circle/District line are curved as well. And they DON'T have gap fillers like we do here at 14th Street, South Ferry etc.
Wayne
You're not kidding about the gap fillers, hence the lovely phrase, "MIND THE GAP" that is annoyingly repeated over the automated station PAs. With all the slip & fall scammers that they have in NYC, they'd never be able to get away with platforms like they have on LU.
Not to mention, "Keep Britain Tidy", "Way Out", and "To Let". The last one reminds me of something else; if you take a good look at it, you'll know what I mean.
Good point, Mr. Willie.
[what gets me is how in many other cities this ONE OPERATOR operation how does the motorman
motorwoman see all the way down the back of the train ??? ITS DANGEROUS !!!!]
Cameras and monitors--they can actual provide a better view than sight alone.
Baltimore's Metro Subway stations are all perfectly straight and level (including elevated/outdoor stations), and there is a maximum of six cars per train. We also have full length cabs. I believe the same is true for WMATA stations/trains in D.C.
Baltimore's Metro Subway stations are all perfectly straight and level (including
elevated/outdoor stations), and there is a maximum of six cars per train. We also have full
length cabs. I believe the same is true for WMATA stations/trains in D.C.
Pretty much the case in D.C. - the only station that I can think of that has even a gentle curve to the platform is Brookland/CUA, an outdoor, grade-level station on the Red Line. Each and every underground station is arrow-straight.
Wayne
MOntrals' Metro stations all have outside platforms, at least on the original lines, and are straight as well. Has Montreal gone OPTO?
>>>I'd say worst LIRR one would be either Glen Street or Flatbush Ave <<
Flushing Main Street is the worst--no crossover. You have to descend to street level and fight the crowds.
1st and 3rd Aves on the L.
These certainly aren't the worst, but they are pet peeves for me. Why do they only have entrances/exits at one extreme of the station? Now the end they picked is logical because of the positioning of the old "L" or "el" (another thread). But would it be so difficult to put entrances at the other ends? Use iron maidens or whatever the newer metrocard versions are called if you don't want to man the other end. When I'm walking from the east village to the L at 1st Ave. I amost always get to hear the subway I'm missing when I reach 14th and A.
Jamaica Van Wyck is almost as bad. You down the escellator from Jamaica Ave and Metropolitan Ave to the Mezzanine. You then have to walk two thirds of the platform length to gain entry and get down to the platform level.
1st and 3rd Aves on the L.
These certainly aren't the worst, but they are pet peeves for me. Why do they only have entrances/exits at one extreme of the station? Now the end they picked is logical because of the positioning of the old "L" or "el" (another thread). But would it be so difficult to put entrances at the other ends? Use iron maidens or whatever the newer metrocard versions are called if you don't want to man the other end. When I'm walking from the east village to the L at 1st Ave. I amost always get to hear the subway I'm missing when I reach 14th and A.
I know what you're talking about. I lived in Stuyvesant Town when I was a kid. Since my building was located approximately at 19th St. between Ave. B and C, if there was another entrance at Ave. A, that would have been closest to me. It is something I never really thought about until you brought it up. But, you are right. The entrances were positioned for convenience right under the elevated stations. Fact is, if the els were still running when I lived there, my closest station would have been the 19th St. station (19th St. and First Ave.) on the 2nd Ave. El.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[1st and 3rd Aves on the L.
These certainly aren't the worst, but they are pet peeves for me. Why do they only have entrances/exits at one extreme of the station? Now the end they picked is logical because of the positioning of the old "L" or "el" (another thread). But would it be so difficult to put entrances at the other ends? Use iron maidens or whatever the newer metrocard versions are called if you don't want to man the other end. When I'm walking from the east village to the L at 1st Ave. I amost always get to hear the subway I'm missing when I reach 14th and A.]
Stainless steel maidens?
Some of the 6th Avenue stations are also annoying, conceptually at least. The 4th Street station, for example, has entrances at both ends, which requires twice the staff for the same walking distance as a single entrance in the middle--if they really wanted two exits, why didn't they space them 1/4 of a platform length in, to cut average walking distance in half? And what are those mezzanines, an old age home for muggers?
There's been talk on and off for years about putting an entrance at Ave. A on the L. In the mid-70s it sounded like the local planning board was almost able to get the MTA to OK it, but then the budget crisis hit and that went down the tubes.
With exits at First and Third already, a Second Ave. exit is unlikely until they build the transfer point for the Second Ave. subway (I want all of you out there to stop laughing right now!).
With exits at First and Third already, a Second Ave. exit is unlikely until they build the transfer point for the Second Ave. subway (I want all of you out there to stop laughing right now!).
ha ha ha ha I can't he he he ha ha ha.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I find the mezzanine at the IRT Grand Central completely confusing. I have never quite figured it out...
01/18/2000
Although this doesn't qualify as a horribly designed station, the Sith Avenue stations (ex. 33rd St) on PATH are horribly rehabbed stations. While they retained the old columns, the choice of two toned gray wall tiles look very bland and colorless. When rehhabing those station, PATH could have used better tiles and designed a tile pattern that would do justice and compliment the old Hudson and Manhattan. They could have done what is currenlt done at some rehab station on the NYCTA by combining the past with the present.
Bill Newkirk
IMHO, Penn in NY is pretty bad too.
I actually don't mind 72nd street that much. But the transfer from the numbers to the A/C/E at 42nd is pretty bad.
I'd say worst LIRR one would be either Glen Street or Flatbush Ave
I'm not sure what the worst MN or NJT one would be.
City Hall in Philly does suck, as do lots of their regional rail ones.
I'd say Journal Square is the worst path one, but only cause it looks like a hole in the ground...
Broadway-Nassau IND should at least by in the running. Real rat-in-the-maze stuff, especially in regards to its multiple connections.
I'm not too fond of City Hall either for a number of reasons.
1)TOO DARK. Even for a SEPTA station, the dim lighting in addition to the ammonia/urine/McDonald's food scent found on Philadelphia subways contributes to it's overall crappiness.
2)Bad connections. To get to the SS Trolleys from a westbound El, you have to walk about half the length of the northbound BSS platform, up those steep stairs to another dank station.
3)Maintenance. I catch the BSS more or less every day at City Hall and have been looking at the same "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" ad since July of 1998! And it wouldn't hurt to remodel the station some time soon. It looks too 60's.
63rd Street is also pretty bad. Fare control is one the eastbound platform and I've missed many an eastbound train paying and then running under the tracks.
[63rd Street is also pretty bad. Fare control is one the eastbound
platform and I've missed many an eastbound train paying and then running
under the tracks.]
Isn't Church Street like that, or is it different?
At least with 63rd, it will be fixed soon. City Hall can never be fixed completely.
At Bowling Green, one exit requires you to go DOWNstairs from the platform, and then up an escalator to the fare control. More often than not the escalator is not running. There's a more direct exit closer to the ferry, but it's been closed and 'under renovation' for as long as anyone can remember.
96th-Broadway has a similiar down-then-up arrangement at the uptown exit. I walk out of my way to the more conventional 93rd Street exit.
59th-Lexington has separate platforms for the local and express, necessitated by the narrow width of Lexington Avenue. If express service is suddenly diverted to the upper, local platform, you're left fuming on the lower platform waiting forever that trains that never come. The same thing applies if there's weekend track work and there are no signs or barriers.
Atlantic Avenue and both Penn Stations also have separate platforms for local and express, but at least they're on the same level. Whenever a train arrives on an unaccustomed track, everyone has to frantically run down one flight of stairs and up another.
Much further from home, when you detrain the R3 outbound at Media, in a depressed open enbankment, there is no stairway up to street level from that platform. ou have to wait for the train to leave and then walk across both tracks to get to the stairs To make matters worse, the train you just got off has to wait to leave because the next stop, Elwyn, is the terminal and has a small yard with frequent movement of trains. The one time I experienced this, we were blocked in for almost ten minutes before the train left.
59th-Lexington has separate platforms for the local and express, necessitated by the narrow width of Lexington Avenue. If express service is suddenly diverted to the upper, local platform, you're left fuming on the lower platform waiting forever that trains that never come. The same thing applies if there's weekend track work and there are no signs or barriers.
The way 59th St. is, was not the result of poor design. It was originally a local station only, with the express tracks running below. The express platforms were constructed in the 1950's. Its better to have an express station at 59th St. the way it is, than to not have an express station there at all. They could have left it a local station only.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And, remember that the 59-Lex express tracks are actually TWO levels below the locals - the BMT 60th St. tubes are in between.
Atlantic Ave. and Penn Station on the 7th and 8th Ave. lines were built that way on purpose, to discourage local-to-express transfers. Plus, Penn Station and its tracks were already in place when both subway lines were built, and that was really the only place the subway tracks would fit.
01/15/2000
Because of the Malbone Street wreck, wasn't a law passed forbidding wooden "el" cars from operating in tunnels?
What brings this up is the abandoned Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel in the Bronx. On page 29 of "The Tracks of New York" Volume 3 book, there is a set of Manhattan "El" cars east of Jerome-Anderson Ave station. The automobiles in the photo appear to be 1920's in vintage. How did the IRT get away with running the Gate Cars through that tunnel or were they exempt for some reason ?
Bill Newkirk
I think the rule was that they could not mix steel and wood cars on the same train. I remember reading that one of the cars involved in the wreck had a significant amount of steel reinforcement. All its passengers survived but this car collided with an all wood car in front. This created the bulk of the damage and fatalities, not the initial collision of the wooden car with the tunnel wall.
BMT wooden cars used Nassau St until the late 1920's, Main St until 1949 and the lower level of 9th Ave until 1954. I distinctly remember seeing wooden MUDC's on the Polo Grounds Shuttle throught the mid 1950's.
Contrary to many reports, damage in the Malbone Street accident was not caused by any car crashing into any other car, in other words, the cars did not overrun or telescope each other as has happened in many accidents.
The deaths and injuries were almost entirely due to the impact between the cars themselves and the tunnel wall. The trailer cars, which suffered almost all the significant damage, got the brunt of it because of their light weight and top-heaviness.
AFAIK, the "no wooden cars in tunnels" rule was not codified in law, and at any rate, a number of services were "grandfathered" for decades after Malbone Street, as you noted.
Stephen....Are you sure wooden cars ran to Main St. and to 9th Ave. that late in time? I thought the wooden cars ran as far as Willets Pt. with the steel IRT cars going all the way.
On the Culver line, the wooden cars only ran from Coney Island to Kings Highway until 1953. The 5th ave el did run wood cars to CI until 1940.
Carl M.
Although I have no firsthand knowledge I do recall reading in this forum (a while ago) that the gate cars only went as far as Willet's Point (now Shea) and not to Main St.
Although I have no firsthand knowledge I do recall reading in this forum (a while ago) that the gate cars only went as far as Willet's Point (now Shea) and not to Main St.
Maybe, but what about the Q's on the BMT. It wouldn't make sense to make BMT riders from Main St. take 3 separate trains to get to Manhattan. Its bad enough that they had to switch for a "steel" subway train at Queensboro Plaza, but making them switch twice. That would mean taking a steel subway train from Main St. to Willets Pt., the Q's to Queensboro Plaza and another steel subway train into Manhattan. I would imagine the Q's went all the way to Main St.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
2nd Ave El trains turned around at Willets Pt. BMT gate and Q cars ran all the way to Main St.
2nd Ave El trains turned around at Willets Pt. BMT gate and Q cars ran all the way to Main St.
That's what I thought. So, the IRT subway and the BMT shuttle went to Main St., whereas the 2nd Ave. El went to Willets Pt. If the BMT ran all the way to Main St., I wonder why the 2nd Ave. El trains were turned at Willets Pt.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The BMT had counterflow express service on the Culver. Steel cars ran from Chambers to CI with express service in the opposite direction (AM to CI, PM from CI). Gate cars supplied local service from 9th Ave to CI.
Stepen....Was this into the 1950's, though?
Carl M.
For the next five weekends between the hours of 7:00A.M Saturday and 7:00P.M Sunday, there is no N service between Ditmars Blvd and Queensboro Plaza. During the midnight hours of this G.O., N service will operate from Stillwell Ave to Continental Ave, making all stops.So if anybody wants to see unusual equipment sightings on the Queens IND, take a ride out there next Saturday night.I spotted 3 R68s on my last trip. During non midnight hours of this G.O., the N terminates at 57 ST.
For the next five weekends between the hours of 7:00A.M Saturday and 7:00P.M Sunday, there is no N service between Ditmars Blvd and Queensboro Plaza. During the midnight hours of this G.O., N service will operate from Stillwell Ave to Continental Ave, making all stops.So if anybody wants to see unusual equipment sightings on the Queens IND, take a ride out there next Saturday night.I spotted 3 R68s on my last trip. During non midnight hours of this G.O., the N terminates at 57 ST.
What's going on with the Astoria Line?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There doing work at Queensboro Plaza.
There doing work at Queensboro Plaza.
Thanx.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Per official AFC Bulletin. Goes on sale 1/22/2000 at 7am
As usual I am grouping stations to save room
225-242-- 1/9
241-2,5
Eastern Parkway IRT 2/3
Hoyt 2/3/A/C/G
Beverly rd IRT-2/5
Church Ave-2/5/F
Newkirk-2/5
219-238--2/5
Freeman-2/5
Intervale-2/5
pelham pkwy-2/5
utica-3/4
Gun Hill- 5
Middletown-6
Pelham bay park-6
westchester square-6
zerega-6
lefferts-A
nostrand-A
jamaica/van wyk-E
15th/prospect park-F
179-F
parson blvd-F
forest pkwy-J/Z
woodhaven- J/G/R
45-59--N/R
Bay Ridge Ave-85--R
110-1/9/B/C
28-1/9
50-1/9
Broadway-Nassau/Fulton-2/3/4/5/A/C/J/M/Z
woodside-7
74-90--7
Main Street-7
104-A
111-A
88-A
howard beach-A
59/columbus circle-1/9/A/B/C/D
5th ave=IND-E/F
75av- E/F
union tpke-E/F
van wyk( Briarwood)-E/F/G/R
74/Roosevelt-E/F/G/R/7
Jamaica ctr- JU/Z
169-F
sutphin- F
46-G/R
63-67-g/r
elmhurst, grand- G/R
N blvd- G/R
broad st-J/M/Z
chambers/Brooklyn Bridge-4/5/6/J/M/Z
104 to 121- J/Z
ditmars- N
49-N/R
city hall- N/R
You forgot to mention what the subject of the card was.
Great reading! you passed the test. It is the " A T & T Local Service" Metrocard.
There are quite a few of us who read your announcement post.
Thanks again.
Anyone know the details of the Feb. 12th MC swap meet ?
Mr t__:^)
01/18/2000
Thurston,
Nothing new on details, other than that:
Saturday,Feb, 12,2000
at Baga Telle restaurant - 12 St.Marks Pl (8th St) bet. 2nd and 3rd Ave's.
#6 train to Astor Pl station or (N)(R) to 8th St station.
For more info call Greg at 1 (212) 563-5889
Bill Newkirk
every booth has a letter and a number (some also have a letter at the end such as N62A)
I will not print a list of every booth, but I will give the numbering scheme
A-BMT Manhattan
B,C,D,E,G- Southern Div BMT
H- Canarsie/14th st line
J- J Line
K- M (Myrtle) Line
N- All IND
R- All IRT *and* astoria BMT
Z- Training (used for equipment at training centers such as 14th street training center, PS248, etc.)
Letters F,L,M,O,P,Q,S,T,U,V,W,Z,Y are not used
Let's say I worked at Booth J500 (no such booth) that means it would be on the J Line.
The number system is not perfect. Due to intersecting lines and actual location of booths you could have an "IND booth" loooking toawrds and "IRT station".
Some station complexes such as Times square or Fulton/Broadway nassau have IRT,BMT and IND booths.
I will not respond to e-mails requesting more infomation.
The site http://www.traction.org is listed as being registered to the ERA. The site is apparently not is service yet. Any ERA members have more info on this website?
From WHOIS-->>
Registrant:
Electric Railroaders' Association (TRACTION3-DOM)
PO Box 3001
New York, NY 10008-3001
US
Domain Name: TRACTION.ORG
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hakner, Jeff (JH162)
Billing Contact:
Hakner, Jeff (JH162)
Record last updated on 24-Aug-1999.
Record created on 24-Aug-1999.
Database last updated on 15-Jan-2000 17:03:00 EST.
The New York Division - Electric Railroaders' Association is working on a website. We had one in 1998-99, but the webmaster went into the military in early 1999 and we haven't been able to get the site going since. He's still in the military, but he has access to a computer and a phone line now, so he anticipates getting back into things very soon. In the meantime, another member volunteered to develop a website, for which traction.org was reserved. It's not ready yet, either.
We hope to have something up, by either webmaster, soon.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated.
The New York Division - Electric Railroaders' Association is working on a website. We had one in 1998-99, but the webmaster went into the military in early 1999 and we haven't been able to get the site going since. He's still in the military, but he has access to a computer and a phone line now, so he anticipates getting back into things very soon. In the meantime, another member volunteered to develop a website, for which traction.org was reserved. It's not ready yet, either.
We hope to have something up, by either webmaster, soon.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated.
David,
If you want a professional-looking site, e-mail me. I have the skills and the tools. We can discuss this through private e-mail.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
this was found at: http://netscape.digitalcity.com/newyork/news/article.dci?article=385694
The article reads:
Graffiti Ring Put Out Of Business
New York, NY) -- Transit cops have put a graffiti ring out of business. The cops busted a ring of alleged vandals that targeted the number seven line at least 21 times and even went so far as to videotape their work. The ring was also videotaped defacing other property such as mailboxes and cars with shoe polish.
The City should really make an example of these vandals if they are found to be guilty. That's the only way to get the message across that graffiti/scratchiti will not be tolerated. How about 100 hours community service - removing graffiti - for each incidence of vandalism?
(Make an example)
Perhaps if you only catch a small percentage of the vandals, they should be made to undo all the damage. Certainly any money they have should be taken away. And how about four hours per day cleaning and otherwise repairing vandalism for four years -- in chains, in full view of the passengers.
right on !!
[The City should really make an example of these vandals if they are found to be guilty. That's the only way to get the message across that graffiti/scratchiti will not be tolerated. How about 100 hours community service - removing graffiti - for each incidence of vandalism?]
I like that idea, with one change - once the vandals are done with their community service, *then* send them to prison for a few years. And then when they're out of prison, give them lifetime bans from riding subways or buses.
Do you really want to finish those thugs off. Sentence them to a twenty year career at MTA-NYCT. That'll teach em! Just don't call them WEPS or I will pay for my suggestion.
No. If you really want to torture those punks make sure they view heypaul's or salamm allah's postings at SubTalk. That should do some damage (mentally).
Doug aka BMTman
hey now ! you leave heypaul alone !! he is a nice man and my my name is not salamm!!
neither heypaul or myelf will have anything to do with damagaing anybody mentally or physically !!!
thank you mr doug bmt but no thanks !!!
Hmm is it Salaam, Shalom or "Salami?
So you're saying that you are SalaamAllah?
Thats peace to god, right?
it is past 9 pm here THAT means that on the east coast you did not have anything better than to put up
a post like that at after 1200 am monday morning coming from the EASTERN TIME ZONE !!! ???
late sleeper...
it is past 9 pm here THAT means that on the east coast you did not have anything better than to put up
a post like that at after 1200 am monday morning coming from the EASTERN TIME ZONE !!! ???
Time is all relative. I go to sleep at 5 AM and wake up at 1 PM. Once SubTalk dies down around 2 AM, I find something else to do on the Net, like surfing or playing chess.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No. If you really want to torture those punks make sure they view heypaul's or salamm allah's postings at SubTalk. That should do some damage (mentally).
which thread? There's the welfare thread and there's the R-142 scrap thread.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
anyone on sub talk besides white males ????? !!!!
memememememe!, I'm Chinese, albeit Dialectally Hakka
I used to be a semi-Albanian, part-white African American, but now I'm classified as a pseudo-Chinese-EuroAsian. I tell ya, these racial classifications are getting harder by the day...
I'm sitting in front of my screen cracking up at that self description...Humor, its what makes the world tick.
good night folks !! its been nice doing battle with some of you !!!1
I'm a blue-blooded Redbird Redman.
how did you do that run a line thru the word Redbird ???
Hey you guys must have set a record late last night
for a string a 15 posts on a single topic. So what
if the 7 guys had a cough? There is a lot of flu
going around. I hope that whoever catches those 7
vandals with a cough doesn't catch their cough and
get sick also.
Mr. Willie--- Thank you for defending me in an
earlier post against the vicious attack of Doug aka
BATman. Ever since I assumed my role here as the
Joker on SubTalk, BATman has launchd a relentless
attack against my plans to take over the
Williamsburg Power Plant. I must say--Doug is a good
guy. He's just envious of my evil powers, but he also doesn't stand a chance against me with his
supercharged 1973 Chevy Vega BATmobile.
Seriously though, don't worry about Doug. He's a friend. In fact with all those nationalities in his background, he really is one of us.
the posts that ALAN GLICK and some others against you unwaranted and to be shot down !
it sems that good intellegent persons drive some of these folks MAD like when i defend
welfare reciepents etc... even after you offer a free audio tape 1981 chicago they still foam off at the mouth !!
You're mistaken. I never posted anything attacking heypaul or any of his posts. I haven't even mildly disagreed with anything he's posted here.
Foaming at the mouth is also incorrect in describing my posts.
About that Chicago audio tape offer, thanks. Guess I didn't understand that you were offering it to me. Appreciate it, but the one audio tape I have (R1/9s) was listened to once and has sat unused for years since. I'd hate for you to go to the bother of copying and sending me something that would not be that much appreciated. Thanks again.
Anyway, how's this for something we can argue about---
HOW COME there's only BLACK MALES on the FRANKLIN SHUTTLE????!!!!!(maybe it's because all the white males are here on SubTalk?)
Alan Glick
Anyway, how's this for something we can argue about---
HOW COME there's only BLACK MALES on the FRANKLIN SHUTTLE????!!!!!(maybe it's because all the white males are here on SubTalk?)
Alan Glick
Great point!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[HOW COME there's only BLACK MALES on the FRANKLIN SHUTTLE????!!!!!(maybe
it's because all the white males are here on SubTalk?)]
When do you ride the Franklin? I've been on board during evening rush hour when I've seen Hasidic Jewish boys (do they qualify as white males?) riding the trains as well as SWF (single white females aka yuppies).
I also once spied a rare sight on the Franklin Shuttle: AAM. Also none as an Asian-American Male.
I guess your timing was bad.
Ummmm... that was probably me. It's my new connection to the A, C lines.
No kidding! Which one: Hasidic kid, Yuppie female or Asian guy?
I think that AAM was Me, railfanning on the Frankiln Shuttle, when did you see him?
That's not true - I was there - I even took pictures! :o>
%wAYNE%
It really just struck me why there are so many heated arguments here lately. There are a lot of people here who are silliness challenged. You take things so damn seriously, that people are ready to fight over whether TMC or Nova built a certain number bus. Or there is so much damn anger in all of us, that if someone uses too many !!!! points or repeats themselves, we blast them, rather than chuckle at it all.
I'm sure there are people who will counter this by saying that there are serious problems in the world and we are not going to solve them by laughing at them. Probably not, but we're probably not going to feel any better by just working ourselves in a frenzy over things.
I'm sure there are people who will say that heypaul's sense of humor is offensive. It has nothing to offer. I have no quarrel with that.
While I was walking around aimlessly in the bitter cold this morning, I hit upon an idea that I hope will bring glory to yours truly, of course. From the last 5 months that I have graced this message board with my wackiness, I have kept a bunch of my more insipid ( inspired ) posts. I was originally thinking of making copies of the best ones, and handing them out at the next ERA meeting free. Instead I think I will make use of the free webpages my mickey mouse WebTv offers and starting posting there the 1000 best posts of heypaul. I'm not suggesting that anyone here would be interested in reading them, but when I get bored I could go to the site and be reminded of what a terrific person I am. I will advise all disinterested parties of the web address as soon as I cull through this mountainous pile of my pests---uh posts.
Paul, there are alot of other free web pages to use other than Web TV, even if you have no computer and use WebTV. I use angelfire.com, other WebTV'ers use tripod.com.
the SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try my outrageous COLOR QUIZ!!!
number.html">my mystifying NUMBER TRICK
my LIVE world webcam page
I'm on GeoCities, although I use WebTV at home and a PC at work.
Pretty soon I'll have both at home, so I'll twice the conveniene with only a thousandth of the distance to travel.
I'm on GeoCities, although I use WebTV at home and a PC at work.
I use GeoCities also. Its better than Angelfire, MSN, Tripod and some of the other "free" sites. With GeoCities, you don't get the pop-up ads. You don't get the little fooating thingy either, unless you access the site with the GeoCities address. You can access my site either at http://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit or http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4462/. If you use ~nyctransit, you will get nothing floating on the page, whereas the Athens/Academy address will give you the little floating thingy on the page. BTW, any GeoCities site can be accessed with the GeoCities ID name, instead of the neighborhood address. ~Geocities ID is not just for GeoPlus members.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Isn't it that Geocities forces you to give up the rights to your information or was that changed?
Isn't it that Geocities forces you to give up the rights to your information or was that changed?
I get zero spam in my nyctransit mailbox, as opposed to having to deal with it in my MSN mailbox. As for my AOL account, forget it! If I had a quarter for every piece of spam I got in my AOL mailbox, I'd be filthy rich. BTW, GeoCities was taken over by Yahoo. They are probably more under Yahoo policies than the former GeoCities policies. The only mail that I get at nyctransit@yahoo.com is from surfers visiting my web site and people from SubTalk - all train related. That's the way I want it. I have different e-mail addresses for different purposes.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wasn't talking about spam. I heard that with Geocities, one gives up rights to your information to Yahoo Inc.
I wasn't talking about spam. I heard that with Geocities, one gives up rights to your information to Yahoo Inc.
GeoCities is a division of Yahoo. Please explain what you are trying to say or ask. I'm not quite getting the point.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yahoo has a faily standard privacy policy. I'm sure it covers GeoCities accounts.
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/privacy/
I think what Defy Reason was referring to is covered in the privacy page I gave the link to. Yahoo GeoCities has a "Pages that Pay" program that does send your personal info out and about to third parties also in the program.
It is a voluntary program, however. Like most anyone else, they also offer you protional "opportunites", but you can turn them down.
You also don't "own" the material you post on GeoCities. The copyright belongs to them. A model RR club I'm a member of has a GeoCities webpage, and I won't allow any material of mine to be published there for that reason.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You also don't "own" the material you post on GeoCities. The copyright belongs to them. A model RR club I'm a member of has a GeoCities webpage, and I won't allow any material of mine to be published there for that reason.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just read their complete Terms of Service, along with their copyright notice. I find nothing to back up what you are saying.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm going based on the info emailed to our club secretary and distributed to the membership at the time she established the web page there. This was about 18 months ago. It was the subject of much discussion in the club and resulted in one of the founding members leaving (and taking his Ntrak modules with him) since he didn't even want the modules described there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm going based on the info emailed to our club secretary and distributed to the membership at the time she established the web page there. This was about 18 months ago. It was the subject of much discussion in the club and resulted in one of the founding members leaving (and taking his Ntrak modules with him) since he didn't even want the modules described there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Who e-mailed this info to your club secretary? If the GeoCities TOS and copyright notice doesn't state anything to this effect, I wouldn't think any of this is true. Here is a copy n paste from their copyright notice:
Copyrights and Copyright Agent
Yahoo! respects the intellectual property of others, and we ask our users to do the same. Yahoo! may, in appropriate circumstances and at its discretion, terminate the accounts of users who infringe the intellectual property rights of others.
If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide Yahoo!'s Copyright Agent the following information:
an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest;
a description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed;
a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the site;
your address, telephone number, and email address;
a statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law;
a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your Notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf.
Yahoo!'s Copyright Agent for Notice of claims of copyright infringement can be reached as follows:
By mail:
Anthony P. Coll
c/o Yahoo! Inc.
3400 Central Expressway
Santa Clara, CA 95051
By phone:
(408) 530-5080
By fax:
(408) 530-5200
By email:
copyright@yahoo-inc.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I imagine it would be illegal for any web site host to claim rights to all copyrighted material hosted on their server. If it was legal, and if it was so, why would anyone in their right mind want to host a site with them. In addition to personal sites, they also host business sites for $25 per month. Businesses have their copyrighted material and their trademarked logos on their sites. The same TOS applies to business sites on GeoCities as it does to personal sites. As for my GeoCities site, I am just about maxed out on my 15 MB allocation. I can get another 10 MB of space for $4.95 a month. I may just decide to host with Xoom, which gives you unlimited space.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those free Hosts also require us to Update our sites, every few months or so. Sometimes I leave my site untended for a couple of months and I recieve an email to Update it or add a new link.
Those free Hosts also require us to Update our sites, every few months or so. Sometimes I leave my site untended for a couple of months and I recieve an email to Update it or add a new link.
I just recently started updating my site. When I published the original site in 4/98, I then left it alone until about 10/99. I have been updating it regularly since then. I never got an e-mail from GeoCities to do anything with my site. The only time GeoCities will bug you is when you first sign up for a site. You have 2 weeks to publish something. They will warn you that your 2 weeks is almost up, and that you will forfeit your site if you don't publish something. I signed up for the site in 2/98. When I got their e-mail, I published a very simple site with a little bit of text on a textured background, just to get them off my back until I was ready to publish something of substance in the next 2 months. Who do you have your site hosted on?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Bulk of my site is on Tripod, while all the "pics" are on Geocities.
GEO cities ?? i havent had any problem with geo citeis my site athens/troy/5347/ under geo cities
or go to yahoo enter in small leters salaamallah click on J.M.A.D.A. marching drum section ....
The Bulk of my site is on Tripod, while all the "pics" are on Geocities.
That is a good idea if you don't get caught. If GeoCities knew you were just using your space for another site, they would cancel your account. They are adamant about using your account for storage. I've seen other sites on GeoCities that have 2 accounts and combine their web sites into 1. They frown on that also, because they want to sell you more space as a GeoPlus account. Xoom offers free unlimited space, but they too have rules about using your account for storage.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I only have a few things on Geocities, and believe it or not, I have long since forgotton how to access any of the info. I can't even remember the address!
I haven't done much with my web site in a while, however, if my employment status continues as it is, that'll change.
-Hank
I only have a few things on Geocities, and believe it or not, I have long since forgotton how to access any of the info. I can't even remember the address!
I haven't done much with my web site in a while, however, if my employment status continues as it is, that'll change.
-Hank
I've gotten so addicted to SubTalk, I don't have much time for my site. When I got into SubTalk, I never intended to read every post and respond to almost as many, but it happened. Now, if I miss any time here, I have to "catch up".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
why are you having problems with geo cities ?? i have had
a site on there for 5 years with no problem go to yahoo
then enter salaamallah clikc on J.M.A.D.A. and check out those thumnails !!! no problem here !!
why are you having problems with geo cities ?? i have had
a site on there for 5 years with no problem go to yahoo
then enter salaamallah clikc on J.M.A.D.A. and check out those thumnails !!! no problem here !!
why are you having problems with geo cities ?? i have had
a site on there for 5 years with no problem go to yahoo
then enter salaamallah clikc on J.M.A.D.A. and check out those thumnails !!! no problem here !!
why are you having problems with geo cities ?? i have had
a site on there for 5 years with no problem go to yahoo
then enter salaamallah clikc on J.M.A.D.A. and check out those thumnails !!! no problem here !!
I'll pass this info on to our secretary. I assume it came as a response from GeoCities when the site was set up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
THAT'S what I was talking about.
I think what Defy Reason was referring to is covered in the privacy page I gave the link to. Yahoo GeoCities has a "Pages that Pay" program that does send your personal info out and about to third parties also in the program.
It is a voluntary program, however. Like most anyone else, they also offer you protional "opportunites", but you can turn them down.
I'm not in any of those programs, so I'm not going to worry about it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yahoo has a faily standard privacy policy. I'm sure it covers GeoCities accounts.
I've had my GeoCities account for 2 years with no problems and I have no complaints, either under GeoCities or Yahoo.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If only you knew how address I've blocked at my Hotmail address. Spam of all kinds from all places and times(most recently-6/8/94).
I'll see 20-40 new messages on my inbox if I don't check it for about 4 days and 15-35 of them will be spam.
If only you knew how address I've blocked at my Hotmail address. Spam of all kinds from all places and times(most recently-6/8/94).
I'll see 20-40 new messages on my inbox if I don't check it for about 4 days and 15-35 of them will be spam.
The first Hotmail address that I obtained, I didn't have the forsight to configure the account to leave me out of the directory. If you're in the directory, that's what you get. It is as bad or worse than an AOL address when you're in the directory. I have abandoned that Hotmail address. All I get on it is spam, nothing legitimate. I have 2 other Hotmail addresses that I did configure at signup to leave me out of the directory and I get no spam. However, I don't like the idea that Outlook Express doesn't download mail from the Hotmail server. I used to use a Hotmail address for all my train-related correspondence. I once got an e-mail from Hotmail informing me that my mailbox was full, and that I needed to delete some mail from my inbox. I figured that all the mail is downloaded to my hard drive anyway, so I logged onto Hotmail on the Web and deleted everything from my inbox. When I opened Outlook Express again and checked my Hotmail inbox, everything, including new e-mail that I hadn't responded to was gone. I don't use the Hotmail account anymore. Yahoo mail is better. You physically download your mail off their server into your e-mail client. You can also check your Yahoo mail on the Web.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Juno mail is an off the web email product, but, has recently given us the flexibility of checking our mail on line. and no spam Unless you call some Juno offerings spam.
With OE and Hotmail, you can save the messages as files. You can also copy the stuff from the Hotmail folders into your regular folders, but I don't know if the regular folders appear if you don't have a POP account configured.
With OE and Hotmail, you can save the messages as files. You can also copy the stuff from the Hotmail folders into your regular folders, but I don't know if the regular folders appear if you don't have a POP account configured.
I'd rather just use Yahoo mail. I don't have the problems that Hotmail gives me.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Heypaul - we can all use a bout of Howard's Dizeeeeze now and again. It is a shame that we can't laugh a little here and there. However, there are some problems that by their nature carry a weight of grief.
I guess that's what is causing the anger you see. I haven't got time to be angry at anything or anyone.
Wayne
Personally, I think your sense of humor is quite amusing and not offensive in the least.
Of course, thanks to you, I can put myself on a prewar train anytime and relive a subway ride of the past.
Personally, I think your sense of humor is quite amusing and not offensive in the least
I agree.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I agree too.
We are privileged to have heypaul here.
We are privileged to have heypaul here.
You're priviliged to have the rest of us here also. Think about it. If nobody posted on SubTalk, nobody would bother hanging around. During a 24 hour period, there are hundreds of new posts to read. That's the sign of a healthy BB.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
NYC Transit said that I am privileged to have all
the people here.
Indeed I am. This is a very special, very unique,
very alive and active place. Thanks to David for
creating and maintaining it. Many thanks to all of
you who post here. I have been very happy to get to
know many of you on the message board and I have
been especially happy to have gotten to know through
e-mails quite a few really good people. I have
met a few people here in person, and look forward
to this Friday night's meeting of the ERA where I
will disrupt the planned program to read 5000 of my
best posts. If time permits, I will include a few
of the other people posting here.
Seriously, I am very grateful for the time I have
spent here since September.
and look forward
to this Friday night's meeting of the ERA where I
will disrupt the planned program to read 5000 of my
best posts. If time permits, I will include a few
of the other people posting here
Might I suggest doing that on a fan trip? You'll have a captive audience.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[anyone on sub talk besides white males ????? !!!!]
What does that have to do with anything?
What does that have to do with anything?
Yeah! Right? Willie is always so obsessed with race. Do you ever see anyone else inject race into any of the threads? No, of course not. We all don't care what color, religion or ethnic group anyone on this BB is. Why should he?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I usually don't let bad grammer or spelling bother me on SubTalk (It does bother me on webpages) but this thread had been going for almost 3 days!!!
ITS CAUGHT!!!
corrected url for my NUMBER TRICK on an earlier post
Scrubba dub dub, MAKE THOSE TOILETS SHINE GUYS!!!
I usually don't let bad grammer or spelling bother me ...
Uhhh, it's "grammAr" ..... :)
--Mark
At least I spelled SPELLING right!!!
I'm Brazilian
I guess either one will do just fine.
;-)
............. ???? ....................either one who ......... ???????? !!!!!! :-)
once the vandals are done with their community service, *then* send them to prison for a few years. And then when they're out of prison, give them lifetime bans from riding subways or buses.
Gotta disagree on that one. I think that the community service would be good enough. I would venture to say that a lot of the vandals are misguided teenagers (or adults). After all, why would a "serious" criminal like a serial murderer go out and deface a train?
Assuming that the convicted are merely misguided, prison time would be a BAD thing. There, they would be hardened and have a higher chance of moving up to worse crimes. And it just isn't right to ban someone from such a useful and interesting mode of transportation for the rest of their natural born life for a single mistake they made.
Community service is the perfect punishment--not to harse and directly combats the problem.
Just my two cents,
Brandon
Good! They should be locked up and spray painted and/or shoe polished with their own instruments (I can't even believe they were so lame as to use SHOE POLISH?!).
Doug aka BMTman
!!!!!!!LOCK THEM UP!!!!!!! do NOT pass go do not collect $200 GO TO JAIL !!!!!!GOODBYE***
Forcing them to clean the remaining open public restrooms in the system would be a good start for a community service punishment.
I have an old toothbrush and elbow rubber gloves use lots of disinfectant and make those commodes sparkle scum vandals. Artists -- BAH HUMBUG GO TO JAIL AND CLEAN OLD SUBWAY RESTROOMS VANDALS!!!
Force them to live with John Rocker for the entire 2000 baseball season. It would serve all of them right.
Force them to live with John Rocker for the entire 2000 baseball season. It would serve all of them right.
That's a good one. That punishment would work both ways. Because most of the vandals are minorities, it would torment John Rocker as well.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/16/2000
Nah! Give 'em Brillo pads and make them shine the third rails !
Bill Newkirk
Thats Cruel, but Highly Effective.
And after they finish THAT we have permanent penance jobs for them:
1) They shall be made to scrape EVERY wad of Gum off of the floors at Times Square and in the passageway between Atlantic Avenue and Pacific Street stations (the latter should take about two years). They must use only a single edged razor blade.
2) They shall be made to scrape then paint the ceilings at the Chambers Street BMT station (they'll never run out of work doing that)
3) They shall be made to clean and shine the wall tile at the Bedford Avenue and 6th Avenue stations on the Canarsie Line, without the benefits of muriatic acid or other agents, just Ivory(TM) Soap and a brush. Estimated time: 18 months
4) They shall be made to clean the pigeon poop from every square inch of the Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue station. This may prove to be a never-ending task.
5) Finally, they shall be made to ride the "E" train late at night to clean up after the skells.
That'll teach 'em!
Wayne :o>>>
Heck, have them do a complete renovation of Chambers St. That would be an undertaking of Ellis Island proportions, to be sure.
Heck, have them do a complete renovation of Chambers St. That would be an undertaking of Ellis Island proportions, to be sure.
Have them pick up every cigarette butt in Manhattan, by hand, with no broom. That would be a perpetual task.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, that would be a perpetual task AND ONE WELL SUITED TO THEIR INTELLECT.
Yes, that would be a perpetual task AND ONE WELL SUITED TO THEIR INTELLECT
You got that right!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
<sure.>>
So basically, you're sentencing these kids to a life term beneath the Municipal Building?
So basically, you're sentencing these kids to a life term beneath the Municipal Building?
Why not? These brats cause countless $$$ worth of damage. Let them pay for it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well, since there are only a handful of subway public restrooms left, this punishment might be too short :)
--Mark
Well, since there are only a handful of subway public restrooms left, this punishment might be too short :)
--Mark
So loan them out to SEPTA, MBTA and CTA, when they're through in NY.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, bring 'em around the country in a CON AIR plane.
How about cleaning the bathrooms at 91st? I'm sure they could use a GOOD scrubbing...and when they get done with that, they can clean the rest of the station..except for the elf and "I just love tunnels"
They should be tarred and feathered, then paraded up and down Fifth Ave. in Manhattan. Then make them clean themselves up. After that, make them do 1000 hours of community service cleaning subway toilets. I'd be willing to bet that these were the vandals that were also breaking the Exp./Local signs on the Flushing Line.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
New York Daily News also had this story.
I began subway photography in 1995. I saw this kid scratch several R46s with his trademark "ACE".
Chaohwa
Oh no. I didn't see this kid do that, but saw his "ACE" marks on several R46s.
Chaohwa
We just got back from the second tour. There was a large turn out--probably around forty people. Thanks again for all those who helped in the planning especially Mark, Mark, and Bill.
I just got back also - it was extremely interesting. I counted 43 attendees, many of whom were not regular Subtalkers, but just happened to hear about the trip and decided to attend.
Of course, the highlight of the tour was walking through the abandoned tunnel and on the old platforms of the Sedgewick Ave and Anderson/Jerome stations.
Thanks to one of the attendees, whose name I didn't get, we also got to see an old staircase which lead to the Polo Grounds - the last suviving part of that building's history.
Thanks again to everyone who helped make the tour most enjoyable and educational.
Hey Bob: Maybe if they get this Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island tour off the ground in late spring or early summer, we can include the Polo Grounds shuttle as part of a general subway tour. We can make a weekend out of it. Just a thought. I like the idea of going into an abandoned tunnel, but as a kid I always thought the Polo Grounds was the biggest disgrace in baseball. It looked like a big bathtub with those ridiculously short lines and no clubhouses except in center field. I remember the last time I was there; it was May 30, 1954 and the Brooklyn Dodgers beat the New York Giants 5-3 behind Johnny Podres. Dusty Rhodes ended the game looking at a third strike, but Willie Mays did hit an inside the park homer. It was a fun game.
Did anyone take pictures on Tour #2 of the staircase?
I got pictures.. but it's on the video.
PS.. Enjoyed the trip!!
01/16/2000
I handed out envelopes with some "souvenirs" to all attendees. However Mark W. tells me about 5 or 6 people say they didn't get them. They may have joined in route since I greeted everybody who detrained and joined us on the platform.
If any of those 5 or 6 are Subtalkers, please contact me using my e-mail, I have some left over. I'll mail them to you.
Bill Newkirk
I hope you're not treating your new freinds better than your old freinds :)
I missed the second tour (my Fiancee was too tired), and her Mom decided it was too cold for her to go.
-Hank
I took a picture on behalf of Kevin Walsh using his camera, so I suspect it'll be added to his Forgotten NY page pretty soon.
--Mark
Which staircase? In the underground portion of Jerome/Andersen? I have one ....
--Mark
It was a terrific tour. That abandoned tunnel was quite a sight, not the sort of thing I ever would have thought I'd get to see. Although I *still* can't figure out how they got those junk cars in there :-)
Anyway, it was an excellent trip, even though I didn't continue on to the Manhattan side given some chores I had to do.
Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I enjoyed ourselves trememdously - thanks to everyone who organized it, and especially to those who set up the rope! Now, as Paul Harvey says, here's "the rest of the story".
After the tour ended, we went to lunch and eventually found ourselves southbound on the 6, headed for 23rd Street. (I recently acquired an old post card of the station and I wanted to see how much was recognizable. The answer: not much.) While looking around the southbound platform, we observed a faded sign, black with silver or white letters, attached to the column wall between the local and express tracks. I didn't write down the full text - it had something to do with it being dangerous to cross the tracks - but it was signed "Interborough Rapid Transit Co." I did photograph it; when I finish the roll we'll see if it came out. Since I was using Kodachrome 64 in my point-and-shoot it is a flash shot, and it's not too close, so Kevin, if you're reading this, grab your good camera and get a good shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wilco
www.forgotten-ny.com
There are still a couple of "Subway Sun" signs still hanging on pillars between the tracks out on the "G" train - Flushing Avenue and Broadway Stations, IIRC.
Oh - Street Lamps (off topic) - saw a Clam Shell light on a Half Loop bracket in the parking lot at Bishop Molloy monastery (Edgerton Boulevard) in Queens last time I was there. Not too many of them left.
wayne
what happened on these dates:
1- 1/16/1958
2- 2/9/1943
3- 2/26/1870
4- 4/21/1992
5- 6/22/1915
6- 7/25/1953
7- 8/28/1934- which division
8- 5/10/1920
9-12/1/1955
If it has nothing to do with the Sea Beach Express, I couldn't care a hoot. But I'll keep an eye out for your answer---whenever it comes.
Well, as a matter of fact, one of those dates certainly does. I won't say which one.
I'll try,
3) The first el opens in Manhattan
4) Union Square crash(I tought it was '91, though)
5)I believe the Brighton Line opens
9)BMT 60th St. and IND Queens Blvd. connected
Best I can do.
you got number 9 correct! the others are wrong!
Number 4 is the Union Square Wreck. Not sure about the rest.
Nope, that was in August 1991
NO! # 4 is not Union Square!
what happened on these dates:
1- 1/16/1958 Last BU's in service
2- 2/9/1943 Green Hornet scrapped for war effort.
3- 2/26/1870 Manhattan El service with steam began on 9th Ave. El
4- 4/21/1992 R-62 wreck at Union Sq.
5- 6/22/1915 BRT subway on 4th Ave. opens. Trains running from Chambers St.
6- 7/25/1953 fare increased from 10¢ to 15¢
7- 8/28/1934- which division- IRT wreck at Times Sq.
8- 5/10/1920 Flatbush Ave. Subway opened on Brighton Line
9-12/1/1955 Manhattan 3rd Ave. service terminated
I didn't cheat. I answered all from memory or guessed.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
#6 is partly right. What happened because of this increase
#6 is partly right. What happened because of this increase
First use of the small token as opposed to US coin in the turnstile.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You got that one!
My answer is you shouldn't take a date for a ride on the subway. Wait until you know her better, and are sure she's a rail fan.
Perhaps I should go back and read the initial post.
I did. I do. She enjoys it, and she came on the first excursion through the Polo Grounds Tunnel. I proposed last weekend. She said yes. She decided the we should take a train cross country for our honeymoon. Gosh, I love her :)
-Hank :)
I did. I do. She enjoys it, and she came on the first excursion through the Polo Grounds Tunnel. I proposed last weekend. She said yes. She decided the we should take a train cross country for our honeymoon. Gosh, I love her :)
-Hank :)
Congratulations!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[7- 8/28/1934- which division- IRT wreck at Times Sq.]
I thought that was 1927
[7- 8/28/1934- which division- IRT wreck at Times Sq.]
I thought that was 1927
I don't know. I was just guessing. If the Times Sq. wreck occurred in 1924, then what occurred on 2/28/1934?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[7- 8/28/1934- which division- IRT wreck at Times Sq.]
I thought that was in the 1920s
So many people have answered this as the Union Square wreck. IT'S WRONG!!!
4- 4/21/1992
The day the R-110 was delivered?
Sorry-Still not right!
4/21/1992 - That wouldn't be the Willie B. wreck, would it?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That was in 1995.
That was in 1995.
Then what happened on 4/21/92? Except for the LA riots, which I think occurred around that time, I can't think of anything that occurred on the NYC transit system. When did the firebombing on the IRT on an R-62 occur?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Here's one of my own:
1/16/2100
Answer: The date the Second Avenue Subway finally opens.
Or 2500
In the year, 2525...
-Hank :)
Here's one of my own:
1/16/2100
Answer: The date the Second Avenue Subway finally opens.
I doubt it. maybe by 1/16/2900.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I may have the answers. Correct me if you must. Keep the Trivia going!
what happened on these dates:
1- 1/16/1958 - 1300 Series BUs cease operation on the Myrtle Av El. Replaced by Q-Types.
2- 2/9/1943 - Remaining two Manhattan El Steam Locomotives scrapped.
3- 2/26/1870 - Beach Subway opens to the general public.
4- 4/21/1992 - IRT Intervale Av Subway Station (2,5 lines in the Bronx) reopens after a 3 year closure due to fire damage as a result of a robbery in 1989.
5- 6/22/1915 - IRT commences service to Queens with service between Grand Central and Vernon-Jackson Avenues. Service provided by 12 Lo-Voltage Cars.
6- 7/25/1953 - Newly formed NYC Transit Authority raises fare to 15 cents and introduces token. 7- 8/28/1934- which division - BMT experimental lightweight articulated unit, the Green Hornet enters service on #13 Fulton St Elevated. Exactly 57 years later, Union Square wreck occurs (8/28/91).
8- 5/10/1920 - Commencement of IRT Service on Livonia Av Elevated to Junius St.
9-12/1/1955 - 11th St Cut opens, connecting BMT Broadway Line with IND Queens Blvd Line.
Thanks!
Stef
you got all but #1 and 7!
5- 6/22/1915 - IRT commences service to Queens with service between Grand Central and Vernon-Jackson Avenues. Service provided by 12 Lo-Voltage Cars.
You said that Stef got this one correct. I don't know, maybe it is. If it is correct, June 22, 1915 has a more important significance. It was openeing day on the BRT subway. I can remember being on a BMT D-Type fan trip on 6/22/75 to comemmorate the 60th Birthday of the BMT Subway (actually BRT at the time). It was the 4th Ave. subway between Chanmbers St. via bridge and Coney Island.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
While you may be correct, my source listed the info I gave.
He's right on that front, but the info you got is also correct. This should have been a two part question as both events occurred on 6/22/15.
By the way, in reference to 1/16/58 (the one that I got wrong) - A Train Service was extended to Far Rockaway, Mott Av from the temporary terminal at Wavecrest.
Can you provide a hint on what happened 8/28/34?
-Stef
He's right on that front, but the info you got is also correct. This should have been a two part question as both events occurred on 6/22/15.
By the way, in reference to 1/16/58 (the one that I got wrong) - A Train Service was extended to Far Rockaway, Mott Av from the temporary terminal at Wavecrest.
Can you provide a hint on what happened 8/28/34?
-Stef
I have been doing this quiz totally from memory. I'm not going to start looking up stuff now. Hey, where's Larry Redbird R-33 when we really need him. He would have supplied all the correct answers. I'm sure he would have answered the 6/22/1915 question as a two-parter from the start. I don't know whether the guy is a walking transit encyclopedia, committing all the facts to memory, or if he has extensive archives that he looks stuff up in.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Your hint : A type of subway car- it is now in the musuem
We're correct on both fronts. It just so happens that on 6/22/15, the Sea Beach (Coney Island to Chambers St via the Manny B) opening coincided with the opening of the Queens IRT service. Isn't that something?
-Stef
We're correct on both fronts. It just so happens that on 6/22/15, the Sea Beach (Coney Island to Chambers St via the Manny B) opening coincided with the opening of the Queens IRT service. Isn't that something?
-Stef
Yeah! The truth is that the 6/22/1915 date just sticks in my head as openeing day of the BRT 4th Ave. subway, just as easily as 10/27/1904 sticks in my head as opening day for the original IRT subway. What I'm trying to say, is that I didn't know anything else opened on that day (Steinway tunnel to VJ). Do you want to hear something else that is bizarre? My parents and my wife's parents were both married exactly the same day of the same year, just like the BRT/IRT openeings on 6/22/1915.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Regarding #7, if you say the car in question is at the Transit Museum, the only ones there which were in revenue service in 1934 were the standard, Triplex, and the BUs before they became Q units on the BMT; R-1 #100 and R-4 #484 on the IND; and Lo-V 4906 on the IRT.
It may have had to do with an IND segment opening - either the Houston St. line, the South Brooklyn line, or the GG being through routed.
I knew about the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines opening on June 22, 1915. The BMT standards made their debut that day in terms of subway service.
I knew about the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines opening on June 22, 1915. The BMT standards made their debut that day in terms of subway service.
Yes, even though the first Standards were built in 1914, it wasn't until 6/22/1915 that they actually saw subway service.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
NYC Transit: Do you really like the B Standards? If you get tired of it, try a Triplex D as your calling card, better still, make that a Sea Beach Triplex. Sorry Brighton Express Bob.
NYC Transit: Do you really like the B Standards? If you get tired of it, try a Triplex D as your calling card, better still, make that a Sea Beach Triplex. Sorry Brighton Express Bob.
I love the Triplexes, but I am a natural Standard man.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The BMT standards were used on the Sea Beach line as a sort of trolley feeder to Coney Island before the 4th Ave. line was ready. IIRC, trolleys converged at New Utrecht Ave. and 62nd St., and from there the standards ran nonstop to Coney Island.
Even after the 4th Ave. line opened, several local stops weren't finished (45th St. and 53rd St., I believe), and trains ran express between 36th and 59th Sts.
I was thinking of taking a trip to see the PCCs in the Newark City Subway tomorrow. (I wanted to see them in action before they are retired.) Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to go / not go on the route, and whether there are any good photo-taking locations? Also, I hear the fare collection for the systems is a bit odd. Thanks in advance. :)
My experience on this line is that most of it is good photo area because 2/3 of it parallels Branch Brook park. Especially nice in Late April and Autumn. There is no special area to avoid. The early (near newark) underground stations have nice depression-era murals. At the Belleville end there was (is?) a nice bakery if you like coffee and fattening pastry.
Ron
Peter--- New Jersey Transit has a nice section on its website about the Newark Subway, explaining the new fare collection system, and plans for the future. To be extra safe, I would check with them to see if the trolleys will be running, tomorrow being a legal holiday. I know late last year, they replaced the trolley with buses on the weekend, as they were doing a lot of construction on the line.
I especially like to ride the subway in the morning rush hour, because they have a lot of cars out on the line and it really seems to be jumping.
From what I have heard here, the tickets you buy are good for 2 hours after you validate them, so you can do a lot of riding for $1. I haven't been out there since this started, but it seems like a real bargain...
Sorry I forget to give the website
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/mainsub.htm
This Saturday at about 8:30 AM, I was standing on the northbound platform of the A train at 59 Street when I saw a train entering the station. The TA announced that the train arriving was out of service. As the train came closer, I noticed that the first car had no windows on the side of the train. As the train passed by, I saw that the car was a work locomotive (the one that resembles the R-46 but has no windows), and behind it, there were 3 flatbeds with garbage hauling containers filled with plastic bags. The last car was another work locomotive that resembles the R-46. The train was moving at a pretty good pace as it exited the station. I was wondering if the MTA has a deal with one of the garbage companies to haul their garbage on weekends, or if this was just trash from different stations that had accumulated, and that they were taking to be dumped. It might not have been garbage inside the bags, but I don't think the TA would just fill stuff in garbage bags and put them in containers. I was also wondering where exactly this train was going. If it was going to one of the yards, where would they dump all the garbage?
If anybody can enlighten me on this, it would be very helpful.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
That was one of NYCT's garbage trains. They haul garbage from the stations; NYCT doesn't haul garbage for NYC Sanitation or any private carters, though some trash is picked up from stations by trucks. The cars are R-127s or R-134s (look the same), and resemble R-62s (not R-46s) because they were built by Kawasaki using R-62 dies.
David
Thanks a lot. One more question. Do these trains operate on a squedule. I wouldn't mind getting some pics and posting them on my webpage.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO's homepage
Hey Clark, check out my NYCTransiTrans page on workcars's page & you will find garbage collecton trains.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Hey Clark, check out my NYCTransiTrans page on workcars's page & you will find garbage collecton trains.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Thanks. Does anyone still know if they run on a schedule????
Clark
TrAnSiTiNfO
Yah, my schedule, I get stuck behind one a lot late nights on the Brighton.
I don't know the schedule but many Sunday Mornings at 5am the box motor and flat cars are laid up on the Manhattan Express track at Kings Hwy (I think the crew goes to the 24hr Dunkin Dounuts) and then makes a reverse move to the CI bound express at around 5:20ish.
I do enjoy the smell of the train waiting for the D those Sundays.
B"H
i think they prolly schedule the train to pick up the trash only after the rats rip holes in the bags :o)
I was lucky enough to run into one of thes trains during one of my NYC photo jaunts. One of the pics I snapped is on the R127/R134 page here on this site. Here are the rest:
DCP01301.JPG
DCP01302.JPG
DCP01303.JPG
DCP01308.JPG
DCP01309.JPG
That train you saw was probably picking up the remains of former TA workers that were chopped up into little pieces by their supervisors.
Sorry, but my humor got a tad gory there....
Doug aka BMTman
That train you saw was probably picking up the remains of former TA workers that were chopped up into little pieces by their supervisors.
No, it was the remains of the graffiti vandals that they recently caught defacing the 7-Train.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I have a turnstile from the third ave L looking to restore it. What is
the color of the base. Is it green or red. I have seen boyh colors.
I have located this turnstile from a man who has at least four more, along whith some signs. Could someone help me with the proper color. pj11@bellatlantic.net THANKS
01/16/2000
Is that the Manhattan or Bronx Third Avenue "el"?
Bill Newkirk
Actually, if it's 3rd Ave L (not "el") it should be Brooklyn
It's been beaten into me that in NY, it's an 'el', while in Chicago, it's 'the L'.
-Hank
We had els (or L's) first. We'll tell Chicago what they can call their transit systems, dammit!
Chris,
Calm down.
You think Boston gets upset just because they had a subway before we did and ours is more famous? (You bet they do!!)
If I am not mistaken the "L" in Chicago is just an abbreviation of sorts for "Loop".
I was being humorous. Chicago can call their "el" or "L" whatever they want.
Maybe in Chicago they can t spell elevatored, so they just use the letter L instead.
Maybe in Chicago they can t spell elevatored, so they just use the letter L instead.
Its elevated
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
People can fuss over semantics or nitpick someone to death, but nobody after the first response even came near the original question in this part of the thread!
People can fuss over semantics or nitpick someone to death, but nobody after the first response even came near the original question in this part of the thread!
That's because nobody knows the answer to the question. I had to take the thread all the way back to the original post just to see what the question was. I would say, since most other turnstiles of that era were painted green, and I myself remember the turnstiles on the Bronx Third Ave. El being painted green, I would go with green. I don't know about the Manhattan portion of the Third Ave. El because I never rode it. I was 1 year old when it was discontinued.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It seems there are a lot of posts lately which have gotten personal. I've commented in several threads...
Thank you for at least attempting to address the original question.
Gerry
The BRT and BMT used "L" also. Manhattan Railways said "el".
The BRT and BMT used "L" also. Manhattan Railways said "el".
I use either for any train line that is up above the ground on a steel or concrete structure. L or el, what's the difference. Its just a different way of spelling the same thing.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
In their literature, BRT/BMT always said "L", as in Fulton Street L.
If it was good enough for Bill Menden, it's good enough for me.
Typical IRT colors for turnstiles were usually green at least the ones I remember from the Bronx portion of the 3rd Av El.
Why not paint it BOTH colors? One on each side.
Seriously, look in the museum. If not satisfied with their selection, paint it either color if, as you said, you saw it both ways.
Joe C
If I recall correctly, after WWII, turnstiles were painted with what many assumed was military surplus--Army green, an ugly color, and the same they used for the inside of subway cars.
BTW, the name "Loop" for the Chicago central business district is not from an inability to spell 'elevated.' Chicago histories often mention that the area was known as the'Loop' before the elevated lines looped around because of all the streetcars that looped through the district.
And Paul Matus is right--Menden and the BMT folks used 'L' on their maps.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I wanted to take this time to thank all of you who attended. This tour was MORE than a success. The turnout was overwhelming. The total count stands at 41. I especially want to thank Bill Newkirk & Mark Feinman. Without you, this tour would not have been as succesful.
I recieved 12 E-Mails about doing another tour. Rather than schedule another one, I'd like those interested to E-mail me and if the demand warrants, We'll do it again.
Once again, Thank you all.
Your welcome, Much obliged...happy to attend, if another one, I'll also attend, *with a camera and a tripod*(No Joking ;-)
I forgot to thank one other person. Shannon aka BX55. Without her, the atmosphere would have been less friendly. She personally greeted almost every SubTalker as they got off the train. Thanks Shannon.
Mark: after the tour, were you able to get over to 180th St. to photograph the R-142s as you had planned? Were any others from the group able to accompany you?
In my opinion (and playback) a tripod isn't
necessary to film shots and footage from the
scenes visited in POLO GROUNDS TOUR #2. I
obtained stellar shots and views freehandedly.
I'd definitely go again, and would probably bring my son who experienced the similarly bizarre (Bob Diamond?) tour of the tunnel under Atlantic Avenue. Any possibility of linking up with him? Thats a fabulous tour as well.
Ron
Anyone know of a supposed tunnel under the Deegan at 181st?
Well, thanks to everyone who brought flashlights! Much brighter this time. Instead of only 3 flashlights for everyone, I'd say half the group brought them. The video I took in the tunnel actually came out!
By the way, on the wall of the uptown tunnel the following was scrawled in graffiti: "what the f*** are you doing here"?
Also, for those of you who attended the first tour but not the second, there was evidence of "Rocky's Chop Shop" in use once again. The downtown tunnel had car parts in it, too, though not an entire car. And there were some obstructions in that tunnel which were not there the first time through.
--Mark
In the Eastbound tunnel, about halfway between
ends, I thought this scripture was IRONIC:
"I KNOW YOU'RE BUGGIN"
Being halfway thru the tunnel without sight
of either end, frankly SOME folks would be
"buggin" in the "uh oh, we're never getting
out of here" sense.
The presence of some obstructions that were not
present the 1st time through gives evidence that
there is some occupance in the area at off-times
when SubTALK is not present. As well as the
dominance of graffiti artists on the Jerome
Platform.. Is the underground tunnel
private property of NYCTA? Is it being preserved?
It would seem so with the sliding steel door
upfront.
Is the underground tunnel private property of NYCTA?
No - it "belongs" to the landlords of the apartment buildings above it. The TA gave up its rights to it when it abandoned the line.
Is it being preserved?
No
It would seem so with the sliding steel door upfront.
Maybe Rocky's boys put that in :)
--Mark
01/17/2000
Yeah but that roll up door frame is too narrow for future automobiles to come through. I checked the green Toyota near Anderson-Jerome and judged that this car wasn't an old model. I saw a TIME magazine inside dated 1997
Bill Newkirk
If the doors are too narrow to get cars through, how did the wrecks get in there? I was thinking they pushed them off the Deegan exit, through the brush, then through the space between the platforms and into the tunnel. They got there *somehow* unless they were chopped up first and then deposited there.
Since they're closer to Anderson-Jerome, could they have been hoisted up that incline from Jerome Avenue?
www.forgotten-ny.com
01/18/2000
Kevin,
There is another way into the tunnel. It seems to make sense, did you notice those blue painted "support columns" on the Sedgwick platforms? They got there somehow, I don't think some workmen carried them on their shoulders. I guess D.O.T. drove their trucks on the abandoned trackway and hoisted the support columns into place. Those support columns must be supporting some weak section in the roadway above. If you looked north with the Deegan on your right and Metro North on your left, that gradually inclined ROW had to be the way DOT got their trucks and the car thieves accessed the tunnel.
Bill Newkirk
But how did the cars fit through the opening into the tunnel?
01/18/2000
Gary W.
That partition with the roll up gate may have been installed after the cars were driven into the tunnel. I was told that there was some reports of stolen Metro north signal cables being stored in the tunnel by the thieves. Maybe Metro North or the MTA police may have had some hand in sealing up the tunnel. Anyone with more info on this, please chime in.
Bill Newkirk
You cant really say for certain who owns that tunnel. A railroad usually gets real estate in 3 ways- outright ownership, an easement or a lease.
You would really have to do a title search on the adjacent and "air right" property above to see if their deeds include an easement that expires upon abandonment of the RR, or if the property deeds state that the building property does not include the IRT right of way below.
Could be that tunnel still belongs to the MTA or the City of NY.
In practice, its actually very seldom that RR right of ways ever made their way back to the adjacent property owners.
Tell me again, where & what was Rocky's Chop Shop??
That was a reference to the remains of various late-model vehicles in the tunnel, apparently stolen and stripped for parts. All, save for some parts, were in the eastbound tunnel at the Jerome-Anderson end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just saw this on eBay. An 1883 LIRR Manhattan Beach timetable with map and more. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=235019819
Alan Glick
The ERA used to have "unofficial" tours of the lengthy steam tunnels leading out of Grand Central. Also included was a stop over at the 4 car pullman platform under the Waldorf Astoria.
Maybe this could be the next field trip.
I've noticed some people have counters on their
websites or even on their e-mail. I was wondering
if there is such a thing as a Diss-Counter? Let's
see if I can explain what I mean. It is my stated
purpose here to irritate people and earn their
contempt. But I need to have figures to back up my
claim to being the most obnoxious person. I assume
that when most people see my name on a post, they
just pass the post by, realizing that it would be a
waste of their time to read my drivel. I want to
give them a way to register their loathing without
having to click on my post and write a scathing
reply. That's where the Diss Counter comes in. I'm
sure that the technology exists to allow a reader of
the message board to click on a poster's name while
holding down the letter D on their keyboard, thus
registering their contempt for the poster. These disses
would be tallied, and would appear alongside the
posters name, much like they do on Ebay. Thus we
could have a form of quality control on this board.
New people to the board would be able to judge from
a person's Diss count whether this person's thoughts
are worthy of their time. And for attention and
contempt seeking people like myself, I would be able
to see how I stand relative to other irritating
people on this board.
If you notice next to my name I put (814D) ***** as
an example of the system. 814D is my count, and the
five stars are a relative way of displaying my
position here as an irritant.
If this system is enacted here, I can promise you a
whole hearted attempt to surpass all of my
competitors, whose names I will not mention, for
fear that they will draw your contempt away from me.
I don't go for the idea of the Diss-counter at all. It's yet another stupid shortcut that plays to people's laziness.
I hate the idea. I think it's stupid
My pappy thinks it's stupid.
My grandpappy thinks it's stupid.
My great-grandpappy thinks it's stupid.
My great-grandpappy's hounddawg thinks it's stupid.
My great-grandpappy's hounddawg's fleas think it's stupid.
If you're going to send a diss, you need to do some work.
Thanks Paul. Thanks to your single post putting down my idea 8 times I have gone from 814 to 822. I am now only 78 disses away from being a 6 asterisk nuisance. I'm gaining ground on Dougie aka BATman faster than I had planned.
Is there any intelligence left out there? I know the holidays are tough times but much of the stuff circulating in this board lately is pure bulls__t. How about putting the flame throwers and pit bulls away and commenting on the posts - not the posters!
Hello All-
I don't know if it has already been discussed but on the downtown platform of 81st St./CPW (which is newly renovated) Lines have been drawn in for mosaics...possibly ot dinosaurs & other animals. Can anyone verify this?
Also As already mentioned, the Canal street sataion which now serves as a walkway between the N/R and Lex lines appears to have a newly retiled wall on the north end. Does this imply the Q will once a gain serve this disused station? Will the Q switch "families" back with the N/R?
When the south side of the bridge reopens and the north side closes, the B, D and Q will use this station. When both sides are open, the N and Q will use the south, and the B and D will use the north side.
When renovation on the former northbound platform is complete, it will be used for transfers and the southbound one will close for renovation.
Both side are prophisied to reopen in 2003, right?
I hope this doesn't start another one of those threads(and anyone who's posted here for more than 6 months knows exactly what I'm talking about).
Repair work started on the Manhattan Bridge in 1983! Subway service over the bridge will only cause more damage and one day
a tunnel will have to be built at huge expense for the B,D,Q,N lines. I say raise the gasoline tax in the five boros to $0.75 per
gallon, increase the auto-use tax to $75 per year on cars less than five years old ($50/year on older cars), impose a 1.25%
dedicated transit "property" (deductible on fed tax return) tax on new car sales (2.25% on cars over $27500, 3.5% on cars over
$47500) and use e-z-pass to increase rush hour tolls to $5.00 to fund this big project. Planning and funding must start now, but
probably won't till after the mayor election in 2001.
Why don't you just raise the transit fare?
Where do these people come up with these ideas. Jeff, you ought to see what these guys are smoking. You might make a bust.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, the lines are for mosaics of dinosaurs and other animals. In fact, each one has the name of the animal written in. The biggest one seems to be the STEGOSAUR (the final "US" was omitted or erased, IIRC). The uptown platform already has similar mosaics installed.
How about using the lowwer level express tracks of the Lexington Ave. line for BMT/IND service to the Bronx?
IRT tunnels are smaller then BMT/IND therefore they won't fit. Please don't type in Caps Lock.
Actually, th northern end of the Lex, and the 7th Ave portion of the B'way-7th Ave line are built to the dual-contracts standards, which is BMT size. Of course, by now engineers have discovered the 'wasted space' designed into the lines, and no doubt there is a lot of equipment that has been built in the way.
-Hank
The Lexington Ave. IRT was built to handle B division subway cars and could be modified to do so.
However, where would the 4 and 5 go?
Such a move could include the existing #4 since the Bronx structures of the 4 and 6 were also built to BMT specs. The 5 couldn't be altered as easily since the 2 structure was built to el spacs like the original subway.
But as I recall, the problem is too little capacity south of 42nd, and removing the express service to Broadway would make that worse!
Just as importantly, how would you squeeze the B division trains into Grand Central from south of 42nd St. Unless you wanted to use GC as the downtown terminal (not a good idea if the LIRR connection to Grand Central is installed), you would have to drop the tracks coming out of the station below the Park Ave. tracks on the current IRT lines, but above the No. 7 train, or bring it in above the current GC platform, which would obliterate the mezzanine and require a sharp turn south towards Third Ave. to avoid the shuttle and the rising No. 6 local tracks. Then you would have to shore up the No. 7 platform three levels below. Way to complicated.
Conceivably the platforms could be shaved back to accomodate that. But two tracks will not be enough to expiditiously unload all the express trains from the Bronx [Woodlawn and Pelham lines - the 5 is not adaptable to BMT specs] during the morning rush and send them back uptown. And what about express service south of 42nd St. Would you eliminate it all together? The idea makes very little sense.
And where do the 4/5 go?
Don't think of eliminating them.
Want to put a new subway somewhere? Try 2 blocks east. Nothing's going to be there anytime soon.
I WAS WONDERING IF SOMEONE COULD ANSWER A QUESTION FOR ME INVOVING THE THIRD RAIL. MY QUESTION IS, IF A PERSON WAS TO FALL ONTO THE THIRD RAIL, AND HALF THE BODY MADE DIRECT CONTACT WITH THE THIRD RAIL WHILE THE OTHER HALF WAS GROUNDED BY THE TRACK, AND THEY WERE ELECTRICUTED CAN THEY SURVIVE? WOULD THEY BE ABLE TO PULL THEMSELVES OFF? ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTION ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO ME,IF THIS ISN'T THE RIGHT PLACE FOR FINDING THEM CAN YOU DIRECT ME TO THE CORRECT RESOURCES. THANK YOU
In a word, NO. The person would be quite dead, quite quickly. Why is this important to you?
>>ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTION ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO ME,
Frankly that says alot.
I'm not a doctor, and I hope you or someone you know is not thinking of playing with the third rail in any way, shape or form. My comments to follow are anecdotal and based on my understanding of events involving contact with third rails.
AFAIK, third rails (in New York, 600V or 650V DC) are not instantly deadly in the sense that the high-voltage overhead lines used by such as Amtrak are. I have heard that people have brushed the third rail and only gotten a shock. I have also heard of case in which people made full contact with the third rail and survived.
A feature of electrical contact is muscle paralysis. Have you ever come in contact with household current, which is 1/5 the voltage and some fraction of the amperage of a third rail? If you don't pull away instantly, you may feel "frozen" to the spot. This effect is much greater with a third rail.
The cases of people surviving third rails I've heard of appear to involve the nearby presence of another person who's been able to push the victim off the rail with a non-conductive substance such as a piece of wood, or they both might have died.
However, I'll say again this is nothing to play with. If the current passes directly through someone's heart, they might die more or less instantly.
And to answer one point directly, I doubt someone coming in contact with a third rail directly could pull themselves off. The best you could hope for is that another person could push them off in time, and that both people don't get killed in the process.
Oh, and I should add that even if a person somehow survives, any number of horrible disabilities may by their lot for whatever remains of their lives.
SO DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, OK?
Hmmmmmm ! I don't know if I should answer this question but: First, voltage does not kill you. It's the curent that passes through your body that will do the damage. For example, 1 Amp. at 37 volts will do far more damage than 1 milliamp at 1000 volts. So if your body resistance is high enough, the current will be proportionately low and possibly survivable. Second is where the shock occurs. A shock from the wrist to the shoulder might be painful but a similar shock with a path that crosses the heart stands a greater chance of being fatal.
and normal Lowercase and uppercase sentences is normal speech, what does all lowercase mean?
Whispering?
no, just too lazy to hit the shift key (like me):-).
subfan
Or FORGETTING TO
...or having a piece of crap keyboard like me. I wore out the original one that came with the 'puter. Thought I'd get another, and have been through TWO so far. Maybe I ought to start with the HIGHEST price next time I go to the computer store?
What, the shift key no longer functions?
How long does it take you to wear one out? Usually, my keyoards die of spilled tea before they come close to wearing out....
How long does it take you to wear one out? Usually, my keyoards die of spilled tea before they come close to wearing out....
I've had 3 PC's in the past 4 years. I had a 486 SX66 to start with. Then I built 2 others - an AMD K-5 PR133, and an AMD K-6-2 350 MHz. I've been using the same keyboard from the 486, which doesn't even have the Windows 95 keys on it, and the keyboard still functiions as brand new.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Here is a WCBS bloopers and practical jokes question. Below is a news article from WCBS. Is the crime here that a G train dumped passengers onto the Williamsburg Bridge or that Al O'Leary let Termain Garden do the talking?
http://ny.yahoo.com/external/wcbs_radio/stories/8882335056.html
How many years ago was THAT? Termaine Garden hasn't worked in Public Affairs for years!
David
At the bottom, it says:
Copyright © 1996-98 WCBS Radio
who knows how these archives work - how Yahoo gets its info from WCBS, etc, but I'd guess the story was from that time period...
And to the best of my knowledge, WCBS Radio doesn't YAHOO anymore.
Back on topic, if that was truly a G Train on Willy B, I guess some operator really didn't Know Your Line-Up!
HAHA. I'll check the lineup again. Happy New Year Todd.
Beats me, Harry! I'm just the part-time-come-to-NYC-do-the-weather guy. By the way, what was a G train doing on the Williamsburg Bridge? If the NYCTA public affairs person got the train designation wrong, that's the crime!
And since when does the Williamsburg Bridge have 3 tracks?
The Manhattan bound platform at Junius St got tagged up the other day. Blue writing all over the walls. Graffiti is back!!!!!!!!
3TM
On Saturday I noticed Grafitti on 2 out of 3 Trains. My first trip I had a R62A with No Grafitti. Then on the Second I had a R36 with Some Grafitti all over the car. Then on my last trip I got a R29 operating motor 8677 Grafitti all over the place on the seats and windows. I reported that one to the T/D but told me to just take it out and will be layed up on return. Well It was never layed up. At 6pm the Took the R62A out of service and keeped the R29 on the road. Also beside very bad graffitti it had 3 Dead Motors. The Train only made me 3 Minutes late. Somebody on the No.6 Line is targeting the Redbirds for grafitti.
Yes Grafitti unfortanity is on the rise. What ever happen to taken Graffitti trains off the road?
I saw the same station get tagged up a few weeks ago, but they had it painted over by Monday afternoon.
Jon
The Manhattan bound platform at 65th St on the Queens IND got hit bad. Graffiti is nothing new. However, it has to be removed immediatly upon discovery. I've noticed that happening less and less.
Graffiti is still on trains. I see it on the R40's assigned on the Q line. Apparently, maintence isnt that up to date or they would notice it on the walls. Boo to maitence at either brighton beach or 21st-queensbridge who cant keep up with it
In the Fortune December 1940 issue, Dow Chemical has
a full 11 x 14 color ad of an R 9 interior. It
focuses in the several rattan seats, which are
apparently made out of a special type plastic
produced by Dow, which was marketed under the name
Saran. It was extruded into rattan like strips and
then woven. The text goes on to describe the
advantages of this material. The title of the Print
part is The Finest Seats ( in red, I don't feel
like messing with html right now ) 5 cents. But
about 2/3 of the ad is the interior of the car with
several seats the red floor, set of doors and
partial window. It would make a nice print to make
into a poster. I'm thinking of color xeroxing them
and maybe bringing them to the next ERA meeting on
Friday and just charging what it costs to xerox,
probably a $1. It's just so surprising to see the
inside of my R 9's being used as the focus of an ad
by Dow. ( Yeah I know 30 years later they brought
us Napalm--- but hey this was the 40's and this is
a picture of one of my sweethearts )
Anyway, if anyone would be interested in a full
color copy, let me know by e-mail and I'll make up a
bunch. I will also try to make a regular black and
white reduced to 8 1/2 by 11 so as to easily mail.
I do not have a scanner or fax, so I'm talking about
regular mail. You can trust me with your address.
You know what kind of reputation I have on SubTalk.
I like to come across as a comedian, but I'm really just
another bozo on the bus looking for some attention.
Yeah I know 30 years later [Dow] brought us Napalm
Actually a lot sooner than that. Napalm was used in Korea, I was told by a vet of that war. I wonder if it might be even earlier than that?
Yeah I know 30 years later [Dow] brought us Napalm
Actually a lot sooner than that. Napalm was used in Korea, I was told by a vet of that war. I wonder if it might be even earlier than that?
heypaul,
What the devil are you doing reading the Dec 1940 issue of Fortune Magazine? I know they have old magazines in doctors' offices, but 1940 is ridiculous!
Karl asked what am I doing with a 1940 issue of
Fortune?
A couple of years ago I ran into an old Fortune
magazine in an antique shop. It had a very down to
earth article on the opening of the Red Hook Housing
Project. I also really loved the feel of the 1940's
ads, especially during the war. The ads had a very
patriotic feel, a nation unified, working together
to defeat the enemy, and safeguard our troops
overseas. Although the war was brutal, the home
front "can do" image appeals to me.
Then over the summer, I bought 4 or 5 issues on Ebay
for maybe $10 a piece. I think I ran into the Dow
ad accidentally reading through one of the issues.
I never ripped it out of the magazine, not wanting
to destroy an issue of the magazine that had
survived 60 years.
I stopped collecting Fortune magazines, shortly
after becoming obsessed with irritating people here
on this website. ( Is my 45 minutes up Doctor? or
can I go on some more about my fascination with
Fortune Magazine? )
NO AND NO.. I RATHER KNOW WHY YOU ARE OBSESSED WITH
IRRITATING PEOPLE ON THE SUBTALK WEBSITE
Well I was a regular person posting messages about Greyhound and
Mack buses, when another person mentioned that place
in upstate New York where married people used to go
on their honeymoons.
YOU MEAN NIAGARA FALLS?
Niagara Falls!!!!!!!! Sloooooooowly I turned, step
by step, inch by inch,...............
Its that synthetic material that alot of SubTalkers call wicker or rattan. That yellow stuff is synthetic, like a plastic material. The real wicker, or rattan seats were brown - tan when new, and turned brown over the years from use and wear. The synthetic stuff was always yellow and didn't really change color throughout the years, except for dirt that got into the weave.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Just got a copy of this book, which is to be out in paperback next month for about $10 less than the hardbound.
This is about the urbanization of Brooklyn and poses the question whether part of Kings County could have been reserved for agriculture.
After I finish it I will review it on rapidtransit.net. If anyone else reads it/has read it I'd like to hear your comments, either here or by email.
Hey, Paul, I just got "Of Cabbages and Kings County" yesterday as a belated birthday gift! What a coincidence!
I'll drop my thoughts off to you when I'm done.
It's a heavy tome -- seems to be filled with alot of scholarly text with much emphasis on the politics of the farming era.
Should be interesting even though it's not directly rail-related reading.
Doug aka BMTman
Speaking of books. I ordered a book from B & N on the web its called Flatbush Odyssey. A Journey through the Heart of Brooklyn. Written in 95 by Allen Abel, about a guy who goes home to Brooklyn and journeys by train, bus, foot down the length of Flatbush Ave from Bridge to Bridge. Brings back lots of memories
[Speaking of books. I ordered a book from B & N on the web its called Flatbush Odyssey. A Journey through the Heart of Brooklyn. Written in 95 by Allen Abel, about a guy who goes home to Brooklyn and journeys by train, bus, foot down the length of Flatbush Ave from Bridge to Bridge. Brings back lots of memories]
I read it a couple of years ago - it's an excellent book. My only quibble is that the author takes perhaps a gloomier tone that is entirely warranted.
(Book about going down the heart of Flatbush)
I guess Flatbush Avenue is the heart of Brooklyn, roughly dividing it in half. But it isn't the prettiest street in the borough, that's for sure.
Well, it's kind of rail-related in that rails (trolleys, rapid transit and rr) made Brooklyn what it is, for better or (maybe I should say "and") worse, just as Pacific Electric, not the auto, made the original suburbs of Southern California.
An early note--the book has a map from the New York Tribune, which is dated May 17, 1879, which purports to show the steam railroad lines of Kings County for the 1879 season. They must have had an inside track to the Manhattan Beach management, since that road is halfway accurate, but the map still shows the KC Central, which didn't make it to 1879, doesn't show the Sea Beach, which opened that year, has the West End in the wrong place by a far piece and has our Brighton Line running all the way to the East River at Newtown Creek.
Just shows you can't always trust contemporary sources.
Yeah, and it doesn't show the Brooklyn, Canarsie & Rockaway Beach (current L train) that was also operating by that time. Strange map.
Another map later in the book shows the proposed -- and never built -- Bay Ridge and Seashore RR (attention Kevin Walsh) as it connects with the Brooklyn, Canarsie & Rockaway Beach.
Doug aka BMTman
28 subway pictures had been added & R142's page will add later. Check out NYCTransiTrans's subway page.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Are there any sites that have updated (or any) NYC System track maps??
its coming, I know someone, wait a few more months
Um....
Have you looked at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/ on this site?
... tolls would be history. Just think about it. World headquarters of AOL-Time Warner will be in New York. There's no intrinsic reason for that choice, of course; AOL's current headquarters in Virginia would do just fine for the combined company, as would many other locations. So let's assume, strictly for fun, that Steve Case called up Mayor Giuliani and say, in effect, Hey Rudy, I really hate tolls, get rid of them immediately or you can kiss AOL-Time Warner goodbye. You can be sure that the tolls would be gone pronto. Deprived of that cash cow, the City would *have* to make gargantuan cuts in health care spending.
Ah, we can only hope ...
If steve case hated tolls AOL would be free like net zero.
The tolls keep people on transit though. Why do they charge fares for transit if it is a public service. They dont charge me by the bucket for trash removal or police and fire protections. Fare cards are neet free rides are better.
Rudy has nothing to do with the tolls, It is the State who owns the Bridhes and Tunnels and the Port Authority. Give it 5 years AOL will be free
Steve Case would probably want everything tolled, if he knew the facts.
As I said, the choices for Manhattan is to let in those who are willing to pay the most, or make it free and let those willing to sit in traffic the longest drive in. I vote for pay. I'll give up my share of the road space and take transit, but I want some rent paid -- the maintenance of the rail tracks with tolls.
The transportation system must be maintained, and tolls are better than taxes because they can be adjusted for the value of road space (ie. higher into Manhattan, lower elsewhere) and time of day, and because the discourage environmentally damaging actions.
Steve Case is more likely to mention the traffic jams, and the inability to avoid them by taking the 2nd Avenue Subway or the LIRR to GCT.
I went on the 9th Ave tour on Sunday and it was great. I think both Marks and Bill for a great trip. I have two questions. First where is the "Suicide Curve" on the El? I heard about it but still don't know where it is.
Second, under the Macombs Dam Bridge, there is a single track that leads from and adjacent to the Hudson Line. Someone told me that it leads to the OakPoint Yard of Conrail. Can anyone verify?
There was an S curve at 110th St. The El went up Columbus, turned east on 110th and then north on 8th Ave. The ground drops between Columbus and 8th, so the curve at 8th was very high up.
Until the condominum towers were built on the corner of 110th St. and 8th Ave. a few years ago, the elevator building on the northwest corner that once led up to the el platform was still there. On the southeast corner of 110th St. and Columbus Ave., you can still see how the apartment house was built with the corner cut off to allow the el to pass.
The "Suicide Curve" if I rember it correctly was at 9th Avenue and 110th Street and/or 8th Avenue and 110th Street.
I have a map that shows a reverse-curve (left then right) leaving Sedgwick Avenue station. It looks to be rather abrupt leaving Sedgwick then again going toward Jerome-Anderson. Anyone who was on the field trip - how tight a curve is really there?
Wayne
There was a mild (10 degree?) right-hand curve approaching
Anderson from Sedgwick, including one repeater signal on the
northbound track. No reverse curve.
The Lone track does indeed go to The Oakpointe Yard, It was just put in recently according to Keith C, Edwards, was he the one you talked to?
Following is a list of stations of the Sixth Avenue, Houston Street and Rutgers tube trunks as originally constituted (i.e. before renovations):
47th-50th Street - Rockefeller Center : start 1067+75, end 1074+40
42nd Street : start 1049+10, end 1055+80
34th Street : A2/4 platform start 1029+70, end 1037+15; A1/3 platform start 1030+85, end 1037+70
23rd Street : both A1 and A2 platforms start 1002+30, end 1009+00
14th Street : A1 platform start 982+85, end 989+50; A2 platform start 983+35, end 989+95
Broadway-Lafayette Street : A1/3 platform start 922+25, end 928+80(?); A2/4 platform start 922+40, end 928+95
Second Avenue : start 903+50, end 910+00
Delancey Street : start 880+30, end 886+90
East Broadway : start 861+55, end 868+15
York Street : start 808+80, end 815+40
Next: the concluding segment of this series, dealing with the Archer Avenue and 63rd Street extensions.
Was the scene in Woody Allen's new movie with the el shot in NYC? If so where? Anybody know?
I haven't seen "Sweet and Lowdown" yet, so I can't comment on that film yet. However, if one's knowledge of New York was gleaned solely from viewing Woody Allen movies, one would never guess that New York had a subway or any kind of rapid transit system. People in his movies travel exclusively by taxicab or private automobile.
01/18/2000
There have been numerous ideas on how to put together a SubTalk Stillwell tour. I have a suggestion. Why not make it a suggestion for attendees (except employees) to buy a unlimited ride Metrocard (Funpass). With that we can leave the system and photograph interesting structures, buildings etc. that we don't see when we are on the system. Example: Leaving the system at Ave.H on the (D) Brighton to photograph the wooden station house, you can't do that from the platform!
Bill Newkirk
Bill: That sounds like a good idea to me. The problem, which I have mentioned numerous times, is when is the tour and is there going to be one? I can't organize it from California, so you New Yorkers have to carry the ball on this one. Let's see if we can get something solid within a month. Any suggestions as to who can organize this?
If nobody else wants to, I can organize it. I have several ideas to go with. First thing, We have to decide on a date. I'll post later tonight some of my suggestions..........Mark W.
Mark W: I'm all ears. To be certain that I'm in on the ground floor, please E-Mail me at the address above. Since you are the first to volunteer for the organization of this trip, as far as I'm concerned you the man. Give all of us some dates and you can decide on the final one after getting some input from the rest of the railfans. Keep me informed. And thanks.
How about June 4th?
01/18/2000
Sea Beach Fred,
Remember the much talked about Polo Grounds Shuttle tour #1. We talked and talked and when momentum snowballed a date was announced. So hang in there, we're woking on it, preferably after the winter sounds good. And yes, we'll even tour the Sea Beach. Maybe if there is any rerouting due to West End signal work, maybe we'll ride a West End, down the Sea Beach wrong railing on the center express track to Coney Island, YIKES !!
Bill Newkirk
Bill: You've grabbed my attention and I'll stand by and keep cool. My enthusiasm, however, is getting higher and higher, and only a catastrophe could keep me away from such a trip. Thanks.
Sounds like fun, been out of railfanning for awhile, But, I'm back.
My vote is for April 29, since that's the weekend I'm visiting new York.
Why can't we do both dates?--April 29 and June 4.
No reason not to. These dates are far enough apart that it would work.
As stated before 4/29 is the tentive date for Shoreline's Member Day, I can't do both >G<. For some of our Jewish friends, Sunday sounds better as well. (Opps, did I just make a political incorrect statement "Jewish Friends"?? I think there was an article in today's NY Daily News about that...)
No Lou, you just tried to show some respect for our Jewish colleagues. And it sounds like a fine idea.
I found this intresting so I'll pass it along.
You Know You're a Railfan When...
1. You shop for a house next to the tracks instead of away from them!
2. When planning your next vacation, you choose your travel route based upon the location of active railroads and railroad museums.
3. When you blow your truck's horn two longs, a short, and a long through every intersection.
4. Speaking of intersections, you call the signals as you go through them.
5. You call your local zoning commission to ask if you can use a boxcar for a shed.
6. You wonder why automobiles don't come equipped with couplers.
7. While engaged in intimate relations, you suddenly find yourself mentally debating the relative merits of Genesis vs. F40s.
8. Your wife tells you her water burst, and your first reaction is, "My God, her boiler will be ruined!"
9. When you end every phone conversation with "Roger"
10. When being served dinner, you say, "Easy, easy, that'll do!" as you've gotten enough.
11. When riding with someone who's backing into a parking space, you say, "two cars -- one car -- far enough."
12. When you get a shopping cart with a bad wheel, you tag it and set it aside for the shops to repair, or park it in an aisle and put up a blue flag in front of and behind it.
13. You curse the dispatcher when you're held up in traffic.
14. While driving your car, you put your arm on the window sill and wave your hand and blow your horn to all kids standing on the street.
15. Your wife opens her wallet to show the relatives photos of the children while you open your wallet to show them your latest rail photos from last weeks fan trip.
16. You install a pedal operated bell in your car and ring it while driving across railroad crossings.
17. You open your refrigerator door only to find it full of film for the next fan trip.
18. You find yourself looking for old locomotives and color schemes during the obligatory chase scene through the rail yards when you're watching old cop shows and movies on TV.
19. The efforts of Hollywood to re-create an earlier era using trains is met with your derisive snort, "They didn't have GP40-2s in 1970! Can't they get it right?"
20. You're on Amtrak, you find out that the guy across the aisle is a Railfan, and your wives look at each other, roll their eyes and sigh.
21. You're in your car and you come up to a railroad crossing. The crossing lights are not flashing and no trains are coming, but you slow to a crawl and look up the track both ways in hope of seeing a train.
22. You are on a rail facility tour and start talking to one of the mechanics on the shop floor only to find out that you know more than he does.
23. You rent certain movies at the video store because you know there is a very cool train scene in it.
24. You refuse to cross the tracks until your favorite train has passed by.
25. You barbecue using tie butts -- for that special flavor!
26. You tell your wife you're going down to the corner bar to have a few drinks with the guys, however, you go to your favorite train watching spot to take a few photos.
27. You are on a highway overpass at 60 mph and you suddenly shout, "That's the Seaboard down there!" and you can't believe the others in the car didn't recognize it by the color of the ballast.
28. You tell your wife you would like take a nice ride to look at scenery, and she asks, "Should I bring something to read while you look at the 'scenery' in the rail yard?"
29. You can't understand why everyone else doesn't understand what "approach diverging" means.
30. It would not be to your advantage for the railroad police to come to your house and look around.
31. You get tired of explaining to people that just because you have a scanner you are not a fireman.
32. Your relatives think of you when they see a train.
33. You get irritated whenever a train wrecks because non-railfans "invade" your special train watching spots.
34. The train crews know you by first name or you know them by first name.
35. When all your friends rely on you to tell them when the morning train comes through -- so they can avoid it!
36. You stop at all railroad crossings and pray for the gates to come down.
37. You are happy to be at a grade crossing when a long freight is passing, while those around you fume.
38. You see a headlight approaching at a grade crossing, and you slow down when everyone is speeding up.
39. You take your date to a railroad yard, just to check on what's happening.
40. You're watching a movie and you say, "New York? How can they be in New York when there's a UP freight going by?"
41. You show up trackside to film the fantrip passing through and you have so much camera equipment that the locals ask you which TV station you're with.
42. You're reading a book about "choo-choos" to your kid and you stop to explain that they've got the side rods drawn all wrong.
43. You can find the rail yard in a strange city within 5 minutes or less of leaving the Interstate.
44. You find yourself telling the scanner what it is going to say next.
45. "TRAINS" and "PLAYBOY" arrive in the mail the same day and you open "TRAINS" first.
46. You're driving near some tracks with your non-railfan buddies and you see a train and shout, "A matched set of SD45s!"
47. You go to your closet and there is no room for clothes because of all the slide files and model railroad boxes.
48. You love to eat microwave dinners because they remind you of the meals you had on your recent Amtrak ride.
49. You work for the railroad, try to act cool and ignore it all while at work. Then, when you get home, watch how your blood pressure rises to extremely high levels as you relive it in all it's glory to anybody who will listen.
50. Your door bell sounds like a steam engine whistle when someone pushes the button.
And Finally You Definitely Know You Are An Honest To God True Railfan When...
You're reading this list and not only understand every word of it, you have said "Hey that's me!" more times than you'd like to admit!
OK, 7.
-Hank
You know you're a railfan when you spend a minimum of 6 hours a day on SubTalk. If you spend 16 hours a day on SubTalk, see your doctor.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
51. You're riding the MetroRail in Miami
Enjoy tooting your own horn, and its a train whistle.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
52) You're down to your last $4 and you've eaten nothing all day. You see a FunPass on the left and a McDonalds on the right. You slowly turn left.....(this is a true[but sad] story!)
You know you're a railfan when you're watching the first "Subway Series" since 1956, the Mets and Yankees are tied at 2 wins apiece, and you forgo game 5 of the World Series to see Roger Arcara's 3rd Ave. El movies being shown at the ERA meeting by his long-time friend, Mellow One.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
NYC Transit, Two of your "You know you're a Railfan when" doesn't show up. Is something screwy going on?
NYC Transit, Two of your "You know you're a Railfan when" doesn't show up. Is something screwy going on?
which are missing? I can't keep track (he he) of all the "You know you're a Railfan when" that I've posted. I posted many.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They showed up, must have been a Browser glitch.
53) You need to get from Times Square to Grand Central Station. Naturally, you take the most obvious route: N to 34th, F to West 4th, A to Broadway / East New York, J to Sutphin Blvd, E to Jackson Heights / Roosevelt Avenue, #7 to Grand Central.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
54) You stamp your foot whenever you're about to walk anywhere, and make R-46 or R-1/9 sounds as you pick up speed.
55) You find yourself avoiding thoroughfares with numerous traffic signals which tend to change to red as you reach them, preferring an nice express run with green lights.
56) You honk your horn in a beep-beep, beep-beep pattern when going through an intersection on a green light.
57) You buy snow tires with a tread pattern which gives off a resounding, R-1/9-like spur cut bull and pinion gear sound, then leave them on your car all year long.
58) You obtain a copy of heypaul's CC tape and play it for hours on end with the volume at full blast, driving everyone else nuts in the process.
59) You walk as fast as you can everywhere, announcing "A express to 207th St; 125th St. will be the next stop."
60) Your basement is a full-scale mockup of a subway car.
61) You have a real subway car in your backyard.
62) A trip to New York is incomplete without at least one subway ride.
63) You scrutinize every movie with subway footage for authenticity, and make comments about it to anyone who will listen.
64) You go to a Subway restaurant and remark that they should have sandwiches named IRT and IND to go along with the BMT, only to have the employees say, "Huh?"
65) You draw R-32 signboxes on your schoolbook covers, and fill in your name and subject in the route slots.
66) You draw R-series end bulkheads on your test papers, encasing the letter grade in what would be the route sign slot.
You spend a fortune traveling three thousand miles acrosss the globe so that you can stand with great friends in the front of a Redbird (railfan window of course) racing down the No2 line "express".
Worth every penny
Simon
Swindon UK
when your start page is:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi
or:
www.nycsubway.org
also, when you know ALL 468 stations by heart.
Or at least know every line that's ever run through there.
Or how about being invited to trips to NYC simply because the inviter will need to use the subway.
Railfan is a title I'm proud to have(and won't hesitate to prove to the non-railfan, much to their dismay).
AND the color of each and every IND station's tile band!
WAYNE /MrSlantR40\ (a.k.a.Mr. IND TILE, a title given me by a good friend)
and when you work for Transit and spend your vacation riding trains!
and your computer has:
train sounds to start windows
train cursors
subway stopping for new e-mail
subway doors closing to end windows
subways wallpaper
and your friends are also transit fans
You can also add Mr. Carspotter to that.
Here's a few more:
You open and close the power windows on your car every time you stop at a red light, supplying R-1/9 door sounds in the process.
Your doorbell sounds exactly like door chimes on an R-46 whether they're in tune or not.
You imitate doors opening and closing with your arms when stopped at a red light.
You try to outrun a 7 express along Roosevelt Ave. the way Gene Hackman did along the West End line in The French Connection.
That's something I've worked on my whole life.
I still have left to do the Pelham and Jerome lines, the Queens Blvd and Flushing local stops and the Jamaica Avenue and Broadway El (with Myrtle spur!)
Did I mention the Canarsie and Crosstown lines?
At least this isn't like the time I posted all the lines I haven't been on and the list was so long I was ashamed (that's since been rectified).
Your wife goes into labor the same day that the R-142 enters service, and you grab your metrocard and camera and tell her "Seeya".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yours too, eh?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup, I just love it when I clear out my browser cache and see 4 new pictures.
5. You call your local zoning commission to ask if you can use a boxcar for a shed.
Back in 1982 FGE was disposing of 51' mechanical reefers, cheap - $500 each, and that included delivery to a siding anywhere on the Seaboard Coast Line. We had just purchased our present North Carolina house, and as we live well out in the country I figured "no problem" with zoning, I'll just buy two and arrange trucking from the grade crossing on the newly-abandoned branch line just down the road. So, with trucking all arranged (I found a contractor who would move both cars and install enough used rail, ties, and ballast in my back yard to put them both on for $1800) I went up to the county courthouse to get the permit. No dice! Seems that I could install a hog pen or chicken coop if I wanted, but any structure larger than 100 sq. ft. had to either be "site-built" or conform to the mobile or manufactured home code, plus non-residential structures of that size had to be able to accomodate either a farm tractor or an automobile. So the plan had to be scrapped. Fortunately, I hadn't laid out the cash yet. But I'd have loved to have done it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
53)You rent "Money Train" simply to hold a bitching session about Hollywood's flagrant ignorance of anything subway beyond the fact that the trains are underground.
Plus, you think working on those dirty old trains is fun ...
Very nice I enjoyed it very much !
Mr t__:^)
...you have an R-9 cab in your apartment with it's very own bedroom! (And a bookcase for some light reading!)
BTW, very funny post, Lou.
Doug aka BMTman
My God man!
MY God, man!
MY God, man! I loved it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you yawn and it sounds like a R-44 (in their early days prior to rebuilding) releasing it's brakes.
Wayne
Today's _Daily News_ had a column by Dennis Hammill criticizing the LIRR for allegedly racist actions. As much as I detest the LIRR, the column was in my opinion an unfair attack on their actions.
Last Friday, January 15, Hammill went to Penn Station and boarded the 5:03 train to Port Washington. In addition to the mostly "pink-faced" commuters (his words), there were two black male teenagers sitting nearby. They presented two off-peak tickets to the conductor. When the conductor told them they'd have to pay step-ups, the teenagers denied having any money. The conductor signalled for an unscheduled stop at Woodside and made the teenagers leave the train. Hammill strongly implied that this was a racist attitude on the LIRR's part, and was not in keeping with the spirit of Martin Luther King Day.
Two things bother me about this column. First of all, Hammill made no attempt to determine whether white (or female, or non-teenaged) passengers would have gotten better treatment under identical circumstances. He certainly knew or should have known that conductors are responsible for collection of proper fares. If the conductor had turned in two off-peak tickets without any proof that step-ups had been paid, he likely would have been obliged to make up the difference himself. I strongly suspect that any passenger would have had to leave at Woodside. Implying that these two riders were singled out for harsh treatment on account of race is unfair and inflammatory. The second thing that bothered me is that Hammill, on three separate occasions in a relatively short column, referred to the conductor as "portly." What possible relevance is that? If he's so offended about discrimination based on race, what about ridiculing someone based on size?
...and did anyone happen to notice that hamill made no attempt to pay his peak/off-peak fare difference ? mlk would be proud
Combing this thread with the one on Junius St Grafitti: Didn't Dennis Hamill script a movie about 16-17 years ago called "Turk 182" that glorified a graffiti writer?
Just this past Friday during the PM rush, the lady (about 60 years old and Hispanic) seated next to me presented the conductor an off-peak ticket and said she did not have any money for the step-up fare. The conductor asked for, and wrote down, her driver's license information on some sort of voucher. He kept one part and gave her the other copy and told her to go to any LIRR station within 48 hours, present the voucher and pay the $2 step-up and everything would be OK. I never knew that the LIRR had this policy.
Perhaps the teenagers in Hammill's report didn't have any ID with them. However, I think that making an unscheduled stop at Woodside is overkill. They could have told them to leave at the next regular stop, probably Jamaica, unless that was their final destination in the first place. It seems to me that Hammill might have omitted some very relevant information from his report.
By the way, I often wondered what would happen if someone cannot pay the fare. This past year I forgot my monthly pass twice, but both times I luckily had enough money to pay. The conductor writes down the train number, date and time on the ticket and you get a full refund by presenting the ticket plus your monthly pass at any station the next day. Since they only allow one of these each month, they stamp your monthly with an "R" (for refund, I guess).
Bob, good point. When I moved out to the Island and started taking the LIRR, my wife mentioned how if you lose or left your monthly/Mail-n-Ride at home you'd be asked to pay the usual fare. The conductor would tell you to hold onto the stub and mail it back to Jamaica for a refund (there is NO guarantee that they will honor the full amount, BTW), before the date of expiration.
My wife did of course point out -- as an aside -- that if you ride the same train every day and have a good repore with the conductor, he/she might let you ride w/o a fare. Of course this won't work if it happens on a regular basis (hint, hint).
Doug aka BMTman
[Just this past Friday during the PM rush, the lady (about 60 years old and Hispanic) seated next to me presented the conductor an off-peak ticket and said she did not have any money for the step-up
fare. The conductor asked for, and wrote down, her driver's license information on some sort of voucher. He kept one part and gave her the other copy and told her to go to any LIRR station within 48 hours, present the voucher and pay the $2 step-up and everything would be OK. I never knew that the LIRR had this policy.
Perhaps the teenagers in Hammill's report didn't have any ID with them. However, I think that making an unscheduled stop at Woodside is overkill. They could have told them to leave at the next regular stop, probably Jamaica, unless that was their final destination in the first place. It seems to me that Hammill might have omitted some very relevant information from his report.]
I also suspect that something was omitted from the column. On a few occasions I've seen other riders without tickets or money, and as far as I can recall the conductors have been reasonable about the situations - they've usually let the people ride to their intended destinations, with an admonishment to have tickets the next time. The one exception happened just last week on the evening Greenport shuttle from Ronkonkoma. A man who appeared to be both intoxicated and either mildly retarded or brain-damaged had gotten on the train with no ticket, money, or clear idea where he was heading. The conductor told him to get off in Medford, which was the next stop as well as my stop. The last I saw, the man was relieving himself in the middle of the parking area in plain view of several people. I'm half-surprised that he wasn't run over on Route 112 that evening.
At any rate, my guess is that the two youths on Hammill's train were giving the conductor some sort of attitude.
Since when have you expected unbiased reporting from the Daily News?
I lost all respect for them years ago!
(Lost respect for the News years ago)
Which newspaper do you respect? I liked New York Newsday. Too bad they turned tail and retreated to Long Island.
BTW, you might remember D Hammill flaming Windsor Terrace as he moved out (those yuppie scum ruined the neighborhood)! Might have been displaced aggression. He got divorced, and his ex still lives here.
[(Lost respect for the News years ago)
Which newspaper do you respect? I liked New York Newsday. Too bad they turned tail and retreated to Long Island.
BTW, you might remember D Hammill flaming Windsor Terrace as he moved out (those yuppie scum ruined the neighborhood)! Might have been displaced aggression. He got divorced, and his ex still lives here.]
I actually have quite a bit of respect for the _Daily News_. It's important to note that Dennis Hammill's column was more in the line of an opinion piece than straight reporting. As far as other newspapers are concerned, I have nothing but the sheerest contempt for the _Times_, and consider the _Post_ entertaining but rather slanted.
Thanks, Larry. I'm not the only one who noticed Dennis Hammil leaving Brooklyn with the lame excuse that "there's too many yuppies invading the neighborhood". Yet, I could bet he moved to somewhere Posh and trendy like Manhattan -- the hypocrite! There's more yuppies there than anywhere else in NYC.
I didn't know about the divorce angle, though. Interesting.
A Pete Hamil, he ain't.
Doug aka BMTman
Hammil's always been a bit of a bleeding heart. I guess it's understandable how he feels about the "yuppies" taking over Windsor Terrace, but it's not like he's a blue-collar worker (though I'm sure he sees himself as one). Plus, he COULD be living in Park Slope!
Actually, in my view there is no such thing as unbiased reporting.
No matter which media outlet you focus on, there will always be some sort of slant one way or the other. This is NYC. It's papers all tend toward the liberal ethic. The Times being a more limo liberal type than the Daily News. That crowd seems to think that their ivy league educated reporting staff is somehow "blue collar" like the majority of their readers.
The Post on the other hand holds the title for our hometown conservetive paper. It still really isn't but close as can be in this city.
All the TV stations cater to the liberal mindset. It seems to be the prerequisite to getting a job at any of those stations.
I as any informed citizen should do is read a story carefully, and if it's really important, get it from several sources. Make up your own mind, draw your own conclusions. But never let just a single source become your only input for news and opinion.
The basis of liberty is an informed citizenry.
I believe one of the founding fathers said that, although the name escapes me at the moment. Words to live by. The world never saw a group of wiser men.
Hey, Eric, The Daily News is liberal??? Since when?
And if the Post is conservative, then conservatives should be ashamed of themselves. That rag is little better than the National Enquirer!
The NY Times isn't really liberal. If anything it's middle-of-the-road. It just tends to cover the "arts" more than other papers and that's what makes die-hard conservatives think it's liberal. Believe me, the editorials might have a liberal slant, but the ownerships isn't.
Doug aka BMTman
[The NY Times isn't really liberal. If anything it's middle-of-the-road. It just tends to cover the "arts" more than other papers and that's what makes die-hard conservatives think it's liberal. Believe me, the editorials might have a liberal slant, but the ownerships isn't.]
You are right that the Times isn't liberal in the usual, political sense of that term - for an example of "classic" liberalism, check out Newsday (an odd choice for a liberal paper, being based in conservative Long Island).
What you do find in the Times is extreme New-York-centrism. As I've noted before, it tends to think of Jersey City or Bayside as being as remote as Tierra del Fuego or Madagascar. That famous cartoon that showed America west of the Hudson as a narrow, insignificant strip of land appeared in the New Yorker, but it perfectly captures the Times' mindset. It's not difficult to see how this rather odd worldview could be interpreted as liberalism. NYC mostly votes liberal, the Times thinks the universe rotates around Manhattan, _ergo_ the Times is liberal.
Well, I'm not too surprised.
Dennis was always living in the shadow of his brother Pete -- IMHO one of New York City's most treasured living writers. Dennis' pieces are always full of holes big enough to drive a truck through. He has to go a long way to fit into the shoes of his much more respected bro.
The LIRR conductor was doing his job. Maybe he was alittle overzealous by having the fare-beaters thrown off at unscheduled stop.
Hamill should be ashamed of himself for that article. You know he won't be winning any Pulitzer's anytime soon!
Doug aka BMTman
[Hamill should be ashamed of himself for that article. You know he won't be winning any Pulitzer's anytime soon!]
That brings up another point. Hammill said that he felt sorry for the two youths, as it was a cold evening and they were dumped off at Woodside. If the situation really bothered him that much, why didn't he offer to pay the step-ups? He certainly could have afforded to.
He could've been a new employee. You never know who is on the train.
(Could have been a new employee who threw the teens off.)
Remember when those MetroNorth inspectors arrested a bunch of fat cats for playing poker on the train?
The conductor may have been a bit over-zealous in making an extra stop at Woodside to have the guys get off the train, but then again we don't know the whole story. The first scheduled stop on that particular train is Bayside. If they were going to Bayside in the first place (we don't know whether or not they were), then what is accomplished by letting them ride to the next "scheduled" stop.
As others have noted, the step up fare is not much at all -- $1.75 each if they were going to Queens, $2.00 if they were going to Nassau -- Mr. Hamill could have dug into his own pocket if he were so concerned about their welfare and less concerned about having some material for his column.
Chuck
B"H
A weird thing happened this morning. I was on a #3 from Kingston (NB), and heard some barely intelligible conversation over the radio. It sounded rather panicked, so of course I became interested. I got off at Franklin to switch to the Lex express line, and an empty #5 (led by #8789) rolled in and stopped. I struck up a conversation with the TO, and he told me that he'd been ordered to wait at Franklin for a Supervisor. The train was having some kind of electrical hassle, and kept tripping out. He was chuckling to himself that they were such clowns down at control. They should have sent him straight to the lay up track between Atlantic and Nevins, but NO, they had to tie up both the #4 and #5 lines. I heard some rather irate conversation over the radio about how this train had 'tied up the line'. The TO chuckled again and said, they shoulda routed the #4 onto the local track to run around the stuck #5 if they were gonna park the #5 in Franklin. Finally, after about 10 minutes of nothing much happening, they got the train moving, off to the siding. A #4 came in immediately afterwards and thus began one of the most crowded rides of my life.
I wonder how they manage to run trains at all. Between the lack of communication (the TO was trying to explain the situation and offer suggestions to control), and the general incompetence, it's a miracle. By the way, he did say that they were hoping to see the 142's soon.
peace and such
Hi All,
Just a few quick comments about a movie I saw on tellie.
I was watching a thriller called Extreme Measures (1996) about Guy Luthan (Hugh Grant), an English doctor working working at a hospital in New York who starts making unwanted enquiries when the body of a man who died in his emergency room disappear.
This trail leads him to discover the mole people. He is lead down below track 24 at GCT. Anyhow they end up on the tracks where a guy is run over by a 4 train after getting his foot caught in a point. The front of the train is marked 4 even though it's a B division car. (Sorry, I'm new to all this so I don't know the car types) Also, the 4 train appears to be on the line that runs to Rosevelt Island. Evidence being the railbed where the rails are bolted directly to the conrete on top of rubber pads.
The movie is not covered at www.nycsubway.org/biblio/movies.html
I was wondering about some of the details. Anybody know any more?Maybe it would be another maybe to add to the database?
Allan
(Hi all...LONG time lurker, first time poster).
With respect to the movie bios, does anyone recall a film called "Dreams Don't Die?"
IMDB says it came out in '82, so pardon me if I barely remember the details. However, I seem to recall a fair amount of subway scenes, including some filmed at the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station.
Despite the 'glorification' of grafitti, which many of you oppose, do you think it is worth adding to the list of subway movies?
Apologies. Made a correction and posted it twice.
Despite the 'glorification' of grafitti, which many of you oppose, do you think it is worth adding to the list of subway movies?
It depends what you call glorification of graffiti. If its just subway scenes during the graffiti time period, I take no offense and would like to see the movie. If actual glorification of graffiti is verbally mentioned, in other words, if the movie seems to promote it, I don't want to see it. As for graffitied trains, I am a railfan. I took loads of pics of trains in the seventies - not because I like graffiti, but because I like trains. Back in the seventies, you couldn't get a clean train to photograph. I wasn't going to give up photographing trains just because of graffiti, just like I wasn't going to give up riding them just because of the graffiti. When I talk about riding, I'm not talking about going to work, I'm talking about joy-riding as a railfan.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Let me first say "Dreams Don't Die" wasn't exactly groundbreaking filmmaking. It's the kind of movie that you'd see on ABC's Late Late Theater at 3 AM...
That being said, it may have some appeal for railfans, due to the fact that it was filmed within the system (as far as the viewer can tell). I remember seeing Hoyt-Sch. and Stillwell for sure...possibly other stations.
The plot is basicaly a graffiti artist/vandal (your choice) makes good on his potential after being hounded by a concerned police officer. There are other things going on as well (girl, crime, etc.)
For subway value, I'd maybe rank it in the catagory of "The Warriors."
For subway value, I'd maybe rank it in the catagory of "The Warriors."
I saw The Warriors for 2 reasons. The subway, and also because it was about New York. I wouldn't want to see a movie about a graffitier. That is glorification of graffiti.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think one of the overriding themes of "Dreams Don't Die" is that graffiti is wrong. In fact, I distinctly remember the cop taking the young man to the Guggenheim to see REAL ART on display.
I don't mean to ruin the film for anyone...but the cop eventually has a positive effect on the kid.
It all ties into the title: The young man's dreams as an artist *can* be realized through legitimate avenues, rather than just illicit activities.
Same two reasons I went to see it (at Floral Theatre in Floral Park NY). An added bonus at the end of the movie - Joe Walsh's killer tune
"(Survival) In The City" at the end (later featured on Eagles' "The Long Run").
Great footage of all kinds of trains, and Wyckoff BMT, Hoyt-Schermerhorn IND (various station names). Dumb, violent movie, but well filmed.
"Ghost" was pretty good too.
Wayne
I have yet to understand what the plot to "The Warriors" was. And I've seen it about a dozen times. Then again, "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" has NO plot, yet it still plays in theatres.
OK, only for the true "experts" in here:
Where was the section that depicted the "Warriors" flight from Woodlawn Cemetary to the nearby train station filmed? It's not in the Bronx.
I can't say for sure, but an educated guess would be Ridgewood along the M line. The clue is that virtually all of the subway equipment in The Warriors consists of R-27/30s except for the D train of R-42s in the opening shot and an R-12 leading a 4 train at Union Square. It was also pretty obvious that the producers didn't care or didn't pay any attention to route markings on the trains, as those are all over the map, so to speak. One side route sign said "QB/Local via Bridge" in one scene.
The express run seen during the opening titles was filmed along Fulton St.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised as 96th St. in The Warriors. Over the years, that station has been very popular with filmmakers, mainly because the two unused outermost tracks come in handy for subway scenes. So far, the only movie I've seen in which Hoyt-Schermerhorn actually plays itself is Crocodile Dundee 2, and even then they went so far as to dub in door chime sounds for that A train of R-38s. Oh well, at least the pitches were correct for New York equipment anyway.
Actually, the "Woodlawn" station is actually Eastern Pkwy on the J. There is a brief scene of the "Warriors" looking up at the station, and a J train is pulling out.
If you want to see a movie glorifing subway grafitti, it's 1984's "Beat Street". A close second would be that cult classic "The Warriors" in 1979.
If you want to see a movie glorifing subway grafitti, it's 1984's "Beat Street". A close second would be that cult classic "The Warriors" in 1979.
I did see The Warriors, but no thanks. I wouldn't want to see more graffiti movies. The Warriors wasn't about graffiti. It was about street gangs. And what do street gangs do? They spraypaint the trains. I don't think it glorified graffiti, though. This other movie that is supposed to be about a graffiti vandal, I wouldn't want to see that. What ever happened to the good old days, when graffiti meant a little bit of chalk on the outside of a subway car once in a blue moon and pen ink saying "John loves Mary" in a heart or something like that, or hearts carved in wood. The magic marker routine, and the spray can after it just got too out of hand. I'm not condoning the chalk, pen or knife carving, but at least it was insignificant. It was a once in a blue moon kind of thing, not the horror that became epidemic in the seventies, with the spray cans. The scratchiti is almost as bad. I guess, with all the rampant graffiti in the seventies and eighties, youths are getting the message that it is acceptable. Well, its not, and someone needs to let them know that by setting an example with the scum that was recently caught.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"...youths are getting the message that it [graffiti and scratchiti] is acceptable. Well, its not, and someone needs to let them know that by setting an example with the scum that was recently caught."
Agreed. I wish we could also do something to those who send out the message that such criminal activity is worthy of glorification. They also need to be made an example of.
Alan Glick
Agreed. I wish we could also do something to those who send out the message that such criminal activity is worthy of glorification. They also need to be made an example of.
Absolutely. That goes for Channel 13, the scum that Channel 13 allowed on their program and anyone on SubTalk that promotes it and provide links to graffiti web sites. Just out of curiosity, I looked at those sites. They give the so called "artists" noteriety and glorify their destruction of subway equipment. Dave Pirmann, you need to know about this one - go to http://www.graffiti.org/trains/index.trains.html and scroll down to the bottom of the page. A link to nycsubway.org is on this site, probably because you have a section on subway graffiti.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Hi all...LONG time lurker, first time poster).
With respect to the movie bios, does anyone recall a film called "Dreams Don't Die?"
IMDB says it came out in '82, so pardon me if I barely remember the details. However, I seem to recall a fair amount of subway scenes, including some filmed at the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station.
Despite the 'glorification' of grafitti, which many of you oppose, do you think it is worth adding to the list of subway movies?
Apologies. Made a correction and posted it twice.
Despite the 'glorification' of grafitti, which many of you oppose, do you think it is worth adding to the list of subway movies?
It depends what you call glorification of graffiti. If its just subway scenes during the graffiti time period, I take no offense and would like to see the movie. If actual glorification of graffiti is verbally mentioned, in other words, if the movie seems to promote it, I don't want to see it. As for graffitied trains, I am a railfan. I took loads of pics of trains in the seventies - not because I like graffiti, but because I like trains. Back in the seventies, you couldn't get a clean train to photograph. I wasn't going to give up photographing trains just because of graffiti, just like I wasn't going to give up riding them just because of the graffiti. When I talk about riding, I'm not talking about going to work, I'm talking about joy-riding as a railfan.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Let me first say "Dreams Don't Die" wasn't exactly groundbreaking filmmaking. It's the kind of movie that you'd see on ABC's Late Late Theater at 3 AM...
That being said, it may have some appeal for railfans, due to the fact that it was filmed within the system (as far as the viewer can tell). I remember seeing Hoyt-Sch. and Stillwell for sure...possibly other stations.
The plot is basicaly a graffiti artist/vandal (your choice) makes good on his potential after being hounded by a concerned police officer. There are other things going on as well (girl, crime, etc.)
For subway value, I'd maybe rank it in the catagory of "The Warriors."
For subway value, I'd maybe rank it in the catagory of "The Warriors."
I saw The Warriors for 2 reasons. The subway, and also because it was about New York. I wouldn't want to see a movie about a graffitier. That is glorification of graffiti.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I think one of the overriding themes of "Dreams Don't Die" is that graffiti is wrong. In fact, I distinctly remember the cop taking the young man to the Guggenheim to see REAL ART on display.
I don't mean to ruin the film for anyone...but the cop eventually has a positive effect on the kid.
It all ties into the title: The young man's dreams as an artist *can* be realized through legitimate avenues, rather than just illicit activities.
Same two reasons I went to see it (at Floral Theatre in Floral Park NY). An added bonus at the end of the movie - Joe Walsh's killer tune
"(Survival) In The City" at the end (later featured on Eagles' "The Long Run").
Great footage of all kinds of trains, and Wyckoff BMT, Hoyt-Schermerhorn IND (various station names). Dumb, violent movie, but well filmed.
"Ghost" was pretty good too.
Wayne
I have yet to understand what the plot to "The Warriors" was. And I've seen it about a dozen times. Then again, "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" has NO plot, yet it still plays in theatres.
OK, only for the true "experts" in here:
Where was the section that depicted the "Warriors" flight from Woodlawn Cemetary to the nearby train station filmed? It's not in the Bronx.
I can't say for sure, but an educated guess would be Ridgewood along the M line. The clue is that virtually all of the subway equipment in The Warriors consists of R-27/30s except for the D train of R-42s in the opening shot and an R-12 leading a 4 train at Union Square. It was also pretty obvious that the producers didn't care or didn't pay any attention to route markings on the trains, as those are all over the map, so to speak. One side route sign said "QB/Local via Bridge" in one scene.
The express run seen during the opening titles was filmed along Fulton St.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised as 96th St. in The Warriors. Over the years, that station has been very popular with filmmakers, mainly because the two unused outermost tracks come in handy for subway scenes. So far, the only movie I've seen in which Hoyt-Schermerhorn actually plays itself is Crocodile Dundee 2, and even then they went so far as to dub in door chime sounds for that A train of R-38s. Oh well, at least the pitches were correct for New York equipment anyway.
Actually, the "Woodlawn" station is actually Eastern Pkwy on the J. There is a brief scene of the "Warriors" looking up at the station, and a J train is pulling out.
If you want to see a movie glorifing subway grafitti, it's 1984's "Beat Street". A close second would be that cult classic "The Warriors" in 1979.
If you want to see a movie glorifing subway grafitti, it's 1984's "Beat Street". A close second would be that cult classic "The Warriors" in 1979.
I did see The Warriors, but no thanks. I wouldn't want to see more graffiti movies. The Warriors wasn't about graffiti. It was about street gangs. And what do street gangs do? They spraypaint the trains. I don't think it glorified graffiti, though. This other movie that is supposed to be about a graffiti vandal, I wouldn't want to see that. What ever happened to the good old days, when graffiti meant a little bit of chalk on the outside of a subway car once in a blue moon and pen ink saying "John loves Mary" in a heart or something like that, or hearts carved in wood. The magic marker routine, and the spray can after it just got too out of hand. I'm not condoning the chalk, pen or knife carving, but at least it was insignificant. It was a once in a blue moon kind of thing, not the horror that became epidemic in the seventies, with the spray cans. The scratchiti is almost as bad. I guess, with all the rampant graffiti in the seventies and eighties, youths are getting the message that it is acceptable. Well, its not, and someone needs to let them know that by setting an example with the scum that was recently caught.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"...youths are getting the message that it [graffiti and scratchiti] is acceptable. Well, its not, and someone needs to let them know that by setting an example with the scum that was recently caught."
Agreed. I wish we could also do something to those who send out the message that such criminal activity is worthy of glorification. They also need to be made an example of.
Alan Glick
Agreed. I wish we could also do something to those who send out the message that such criminal activity is worthy of glorification. They also need to be made an example of.
Absolutely. That goes for Channel 13, the scum that Channel 13 allowed on their program and anyone on SubTalk that promotes it and provide links to graffiti web sites. Just out of curiosity, I looked at those sites. They give the so called "artists" noteriety and glorify their destruction of subway equipment. Dave Pirmann, you need to know about this one - go to http://www.graffiti.org/trains/index.trains.html and scroll down to the bottom of the page. A link to nycsubway.org is on this site, probably because you have a section on subway graffiti.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Actually, the car used in that movie is sort of weird. The side looks like an R-32 but the front is clearly a mockup. I'm not sure it warrants inclusion since I'm not sure it was filmed using real equipment (should that be a requirement?)
-Dave
[Actually, the car used in that movie is sort of weird. The side looks like an R-32 but the front is clearly a mockup. I'm not sure it warrants inclusion since I'm not sure it was filmed using real equipment (should that be a requirement?)]
Opinions might vary on this, but I'd say that any movie which has scenes that purport to be set on the NYC subway merits inclusion on the list regardless of whether actual equipment was used. Insisting on real equipment runs into some difficult questions. Should movies filmed in Toronto qualify? How about those which use equipment types that don't run on the lines purportedly shown (e.g. _Money Train_, which used R30s in a couple of IRT scenes)?
Don't forget that "Money Train" was never even filmed here in NYC. The producers built a mock up of a subway tunnel out in LA.
I beg your pardon but, money train was filmed on TA property, the modified car was donated to the NY transit museum at the end of production. It is currently in CI yard.
Peace,
Andee
The cars were TA property, but the entire film was filmed on a set built in LA to look like an NYC subway. The entire "chase" scene at the end was actually filmed inside a wooden "tunnel" constructed just for this movie.
SOME of "Money Train" was shot in the NYCT system. Most of that was the "non-action" scenes (like the revenue train going across the Manhattan bridge in a couple of scenes, and some of the earlier scenes).
The climax chase scene was filmed in a 3,000 foot long tunnel constructed on Southern Pacific property somewhere outside LA. There was a duplicate "Money Train" car used to match with the stuff that was shot in New York. The L.A. film crew also bought some R-27/30 cars from the MTA for the movie. Those cars came in handy as they were re-used in "Die Hard With a Vengence" and a couple other flicks.
Doug aka BMTman
The scenes which were filmed on the subway include the "Wall St." station at the beginning (Union Square in disguise) and the real 33rd St. station along Park Ave. South. "Bowling Green" does not appear to be the real McCoy, but I couldn't place it.
If real equipment were a requirement, you'd have to delete The Incident, which used a mockup of WF Lo-V #5674. (You didn't realize that was a mockup? Now you know! That has to be the best mockup of a subway car ever done.) Not to mention the I Love Lucy subway episode, which used a mockup that bears a strong resemblance to a BMT standard with a Lo-V flavor.
One of my regrets during my visit to New York last summer was not visiting the Coney Island Yards because I was under the impression we weren't allowed in. What I want to find out is how old are the relics there and what antiquated style cars can still be found there. Are there any R9's or Triplexes still rusting about? How long do they keep older cars there before they are discarded?
You're not allowed in but you can get a look from the "F" train as it passes by. Check out the Museum Roster and look for cars currently residing at Coney Island to see what they've got out there. Yes, there are Triplexes (3 units) and some R1-R9 types.
-Dave
You're not allowed in but you can get a look from the "F" train as it passes by. Check out the Museum Roster and look for cars currently residing at Coney Island to see what they've got out there. Yes, there are Triplexes (3 units) and some R1-R9 types.
-Dave
Typically, you will find museum cars stored there. There is the BMT Standard in the shop undergoing extensive restoration (2390-2391-2392). In the yard, itself, you will find the museum Triplex (6019 and 6112), and the museum Lo-V (5292, 5290, 5483, and the 4th number escapes me), and the museum R-1/9 (car numbers escape me). All these museum cars have been restored as close as possible to what they looked like when brand new, with dark pullman green interiors, new rattan seats, polished brass fittings, etc. They run on fan trips. Tickets, which used to be $6-8 in the seventies are typically about $45 these days, and don't run with the same frequency as they did 25 years ago. Also, there is a restored 3-car BU which was converted from a Q-Type. I assume it is also in CI Yd., but I'm not sure.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There is alos an R10, a red painted R16, an unusually painted R4 (blue doors, white body) and a pair of red R30's which appears to be used as office space, because of the air conditioner units in the windows. The Triplex unit is still sitting behind the CI carwash, probably rusting away. There is also a 3 car set of what appear to be World Fair Low-V cars.
. There is also a 3 car set of what appear to be World Fair Low-V cars.
I forgot about those. they want to restore them and run them on fan trips. As for the miscellaneous post-war equipment that is no longer in service, I really didn't stop to think about that stuff. I guess that kind of stuff is in all the yards, like that R-17 that became a thread recently. I never saw the R-4 with blue doors and a white body. I'd like to see a pic of that.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Here is a picture of that particular R4 car at Coney Island.
Thanks, Chris. that is the wierdest pic of an R-4 that I ever saw. I went up one level and noticed that the pic was taken in 1999. very puzzling, to say the least. maybe its a work car. If anyone knows what the deal with R-4 #491F is, please enlighten us.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/18/2000
R-4 #491 was SC-491 (school car), was in Jamaica Yard for many years, the paint seen in Chris's picture was SILVER with blue doors. Before that it was painted teal and white, the same colors the R-10's were painted in the mid 60's, but not in the same style as the R-10's.
Bill Newkirk
491 is not the original number. This car was (And will be again) R-4 # 401
That R-4 was for a long time used as an office in Jamaica Yard.
It was painted silver with blue doors, probably to make it blend
in with the R-32s (when that was their scheme). Last year Railway
Preservation Corp. obtained the car and brought it to Coney
Island. Chris R.'s picture is taken inside the overhaul shop.
I'm sure Mark W. can give you the complete run-down on what RPC
has at Coney Island. I can tell you, though, that there certainly
are not 3 World's Fair Lo-Vs, unless they've perfected cloning.
There is one WF Lo-V and four other (regular?) Lo-Vs.
I'm sure Mark W. can give you the complete run-down on what RPC
has at Coney Island. I can tell you, though, that there certainly
are not 3 World's Fair Lo-Vs, unless they've perfected cloning.
There is one WF Lo-V and four other (regular?) Lo-Vs.
questions:
1. What is RPC doing with the R-4? Is it going to be another restored museum R-1/9?
2. I was told that there was a train of WF cars that are going to be restored and run on fan trips. Was I given false information? What are they going to do with the WF car? Put it in the Transit Museum, or attach it to the Lo-V on fan trips?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What is RPC doing with the R-4? Is it going to be another restored museum R-1/9?
That would be my guess.
I was told that there was a train of WF cars that are going to be restored and run on fan trips. Was I given false information?
Probably not intentionally. There is only one 1938 WF car and it MAY be 5653. It's in very sorry shape, I'm afraid.
There are 4 Lo-V cars and one trailer (4902).
What are they going to do with the WF car?
For the time being, nothing. Too much work, too few resources. The ABs are getting the TLC now. The 1938 WF car is in NO shape to be doing fan trips.
--Mark
The 1938 WF car is in NO shape to be doing fan trips.
A long time ago, there was a 38 WF work train. I'll bet whoever told me about restoring a WF train for fan trips was talking about this work train. Maybe that's why the WF car is in such bad shape. It was probably gutted and abused as a work car. On the nycsubway.org site, there are pics of WF cars on the 3rd Ave. El that were freshly painted in pullman green, outside. Its a shame none of these could have been given museum status and saved. They were either scrapped or became work equipment. It makes me want to scream. More subway heritage going down the tubes (no pun intended).
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There is only ONE WF car left. As others have said, It is in sad shape.
The WF Lo-Vs were specially geared in order to negotiate the steep grades of the Steinway tunnel. There were also earlier Lo-Vs which had the same gearing, and were known as Steinway motors. Both of these groups of cars could and did operate together, but were not compatible with standard Lo-Vs. Bottom line: if the museum Lo-Vs happen to be Steinway motors, then, yes, the WF car could be included. Otherwise, no. Without the car roster in front of me, I can't say for sure which class the museum cars belong to.
I'm not very familiar with Low-V cars so the ones I saw could be regular Low-V cars.
I'm not very familiar with Low-V cars so the ones I saw could be regular Low-V cars.
They are the regular lo-V's, you know - 5290, 5292, 5483, etc.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Dave: Just checked out the Museum Roster. Very interesting. Thanks for the info. It's amazing what I've learned on this website by just asking a bunch of questions. We have a terrific group. By the way, are you going to be involved in the Stillwell Avenue tour?
I recently purchased the reprint of Harry Grannick’s book Underneath New York. I would highly recommend it to any transit or infrastructure buff, or urban/industrial archaeologist. The book gives nearly all topics related to underground infrastructure (gas, water, sewerage, steam, phone, electric, etc) a cursory overview – just enough info to be interesting but not too much to be burdensome. The section on subways is small, but I preferred it that way. Most visitors to this site are probably transit experts and don’t really need another “fluff” book on the subway anyway.
Anyway one topic most intrigued me: the system of underground mail tubes then in service. Apparently New York once had quite a network, stretching from Harlem to downtown and Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge. Grannick also implies that the CIA/FBI also had a separate network, but the copyright date (about 1948) respects cold war-era secrecy in that regard.
Does anyone know where more info on this tube system can be had? I’m certain that there are postal buffs out there, other than philatelists or deltiologists (post card collectors).
Anyway - for the London equivalent check out an excellent site on the Post Office Railway at http://www.pins.co.uk/upages/karslakec/po_railway/index.html. Another very neat link on a forgotten British el (The Liverpool Overhead Railway or “Dockers’ Umbrella”) is http://www.kopite.demon.co.uk/lor/lor.htm.
Perhaps this is (slightly?) off topic but recall that mail was once carried on Manhattan elevated trains! THANX to all who respond!
If there were any visible remnants of the mail tube system remaining, then it sounds like a job for www.forgotten-ny.com. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Evidently, the Albany Times Union is reporting some folks in the NYS Senate are pushing a transportation bond issue for roads and transit. I'm sure the city, with 40 percent of the state's population, would be bound to get 15 percent of it.
Seriously, I like the idea of more improvements (we all have a big list), but not the idea of more debt. Moreover, there isn't much Upstate needs, they can't afford to pay for what they don't need, and they sure as hell aren't going to want to pay back the bonds while getting not much in return.
However, this may be the best shot for the full 2nd Avenue Subway and other improvements in the city, along with the new Tappan Zee, LIRR to GCT, MetroNorth to Penn, etc.
I'd be for a bond issue to fund transit, if they wouldn't divert the money toward something else, like they did with Second Ave. money back in the fifties.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Don't trust it. New York City and State have a huge debt load, and people have become wisely wary of authorizing bond issues.
After all, the 1950 bond issue was supposed to build the 2nd Avenue subway.
How did the funds that were supposedly for building the Second Ave. subway get diverted in the first place? Why not just issue bonds "for the Second Ave. subway" or "for a new Manhattan Bridge". Then, if they're not built, the bonds won't be issued.
The wording of the bond issues was something like "Second Avenue Subway and other Capital Projects" with no stipulation of priority as too which projects would be guaranteed to be built.
Essentially all the "other" projects were built, including Chrystie Street, the 6th Avenue express bypass, and the 60th Street tunnel connection. Also, IIRC, new subway cars.
This process was essential corrupt, in that money that went for new subway cars (when old ones might have been better maintained for longer life) reduced operating costs, helping to keep the 15 cent fare going.
The subway system has been hoist by the petard of fare preservation again and again.
Upstate New York may be a drain, but it does one thing to help us -- vote NO on bond issues. Upstate is populated by people who want to stay, not make a few bucks and move somewhere better. Downstate, we've got fools led by theives.
The apple knockers are just as greedy. They've just gotten so used to feeding at the public trough that they can afford to indulge in hypocracy - big time.
There will be no 2nd Ave. subway without a bond issue. Increasing the state's debt is not a good thing, but it's necessary.
Yeah, but you need rock solid assurance that the money:
1) is sufficient for all the projects promised
2) will be spent on those projects and only those projects
3) be spent in an expeditious manner so that inflation doesn't eat up its value.
These are hard lessons learned from previous bond issues.
I agree completely. My biggest fear would be to see a 2nd Ave. bond issued, then have it's money "diverted" to suburban transit systems by the horribly pro-suburban MTA board.
I agree completely. My biggest fear would be to see a 2nd Ave. bond issued, then have it's money "diverted" to suburban transit systems by the horribly pro-suburban MTA board.
Thats right. You can't trust your crooked politicians. They all have the curse of Boss Tweed on them. I thought Florida politicians were bad until I became a regular on SubTalk and was reminded of how crooked the NY politicians are. NY takes the prize!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Atleast when Tammany Hall was around thing got done.
BTW- would this proposed Bond Issue go right to the MTA, or would other Agencies get a piece?
[At least when Tammany Hall was around thing got done.]
Just as much waste, but in those days the money was spent on infrastructure rather than social services. If you diverted what the City spends on social services and medicare, you could build everything you could possibly want in just a few years.
Tammany spent money on social services. They did it very well. They used the only mechanism that was open to them - padding the public payroll. That is what got them elected. They financed the organization through kickbacks on their infrastructure improvements.
...what the City spends on social services and medicare...
I assume you meant medicaid?
I question the "pay for everything in a few years" stuff. Would the construction unions ever allow us to actually have a Second Avenue Subway? I don't think so. It would never be allowed to become finished and open. It would end up like Shoreham -- quadruple the cost, defective, and therefore unusable. Or the intersection of the Cross County and Saw Mill, which was under reconstruction through most of my childhood, and ended up put back the exact way it started.
Actual public improvements are too good for us.
[I question the "pay for everything in a few years" stuff. Would the construction unions ever allow us to actually have a Second Avenue Subway? I don't think so. It would never be allowed to become finished and open. It would end up like Shoreham -- quadruple the cost, defective, and therefore unusable. Or the intersection of the Cross County and Saw Mill, which was under reconstruction through most of my childhood, and ended up put back the exact way it started.]
It's not just the construction unions. I've worked on any number of union projects for private business, and the quality of the job depended on the quality of the GC and the pressure you put on him. Pay Structuretone through the nose, and you'll get what you spec'd, built as you spec'd it, on schedule. Pay a less expensive union contractor, and you'll get what you spec'd, but only after you yell a lot, withhold payments and make them redo everything they screw up. No surprise; the supervisors aren't any good and the guys are working at less than scale and aren't exactly motivated by it. Pay a non-union contractor, and it's the same but worse. Nobody knows what they're doing and everybody speaks Chinese, but they're illegals who aren't even getting minimum wage so the contractor can afford to make them do everything twice--and the guys work harder than the union guys, even the guys who are making scale.
So while I agree that if the union weren't there, things would be faster and cheaper, I don't think the trades can be blamed for the all the problems of government projects. In non-government projects, the work gets done.
[Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 19 07:46:56 2000, in response to Re: Proposed Bond Issue, posted by Josh Hill on Tue Jan 18 23:49:52 2000
Tammany spent money on social services. They did it very well. They used the only mechanism that was open to them - padding the public payroll. That is what got them elected. They financed the organization through kickbacks on their infrastructure improvements.
...what the City spends on social services and medicare...
I assume you meant medicaid?]
Yes, sorry.
[If you diverted what the City spends on social services and medicare, you could build everything you could possibly want in just a few years.]
All you'd have to do is reduce the City's per-capita spending levels on Medicaid (not Medicare) to the national average. There'd be so much money no one would know how to spend it.
All you'd have to do is reduce the City's per-capita spending levels on Medicaid (not Medicare) to the national average.
It's off-topic, but dollarwise what do you think is Medicaid's largest expenditure?
(What is Medicaid's largest expenditure)
I recently downloaded all the numbers from the U.S. Health Xare Financing Adminstration. New York State has seven percent of the U.S. population, and eight percent of the wealth. Its percent poor, and percent elderly, are just slightly above average in total.
But it accounts for about 17 percent of U.S. Medicaid expenditures. And while the federal government covers up to 75 percent of those expenditures in other states, it only covers 50 percent in New York.
The biggest expenditures are for hospitals and nursing homes. But the biggest disparities are for home health care (we have one-third of national spending) and "personal care: (we have almost half). Having extensive home health care services, plus maids and personal shoppers, is supposed to keep people out of nursing homes. In NYS, we have way more nursing home expenditures than everyone else, despite those other expenditures.
There is a big disparity for doctors also. We only account for 5 percent of U.S. Medicaid spending on doctors: we spend LESS than the national average on that.
(Better stop here -- my stomach hurts).
If were to guess custodial and home care for the elderly, would you challenge it on the basis of your research?
Ah, I'm answering at home, but lets see what I can do from memory. This is fiscal 1997, New York State.
Total, $24 billion.
Hosptials $8 billion, or 1/3.
Nursing Homes and similar, $8 billion, or about 1/3.
Home Health Care/Personal Care, $4 billion, or about 1/6.
Misc. (Ambulette Services), about $1 billion.
Today is one of the Dark Days on the calender. I just got my copy of the Annual Report of the Comptroller for FY 1999.
FY 1999 NYC operating subsidy to the NYCTA $284 million. FY 1992, $522 million, and tack on some inflation to that. OK, I'd rather spend on capital.
FY 1999 NYC capital spending on the NYCTA, $342 million. FY 1991, $380 billion, and add inflation to that. And remember, NY State capital funds dropped to zero in that time.
NYC DOT capital expenditures have soared. But they are all being soaked up by the East River Bridges. This fix had BETTER last as long as the engineers promised.
Everything else, about $3 billion, and no more spending that average.
Looks like at least 50% of medicaid is for long term care for the elderly. Only 180 days of such care is covered by medicaid.
Long term care is so expensive that it will generally wipe out one's life's savings. Some states, with lower medicaid costs, will require that the elderly's children be similarly pauperized before the parent qualifies for public assistance.
New York exempts the children from pauperization. (There is an allowance for an non-institutionalized spouse.) This has provided a convenient loophole for the middle and upper classes. The parents will voluntarilly "pauperize" themselves by transferring their assets to their children. This way they can leave a substantial inheritance to their children and receive the required long term care at the public's expense.
There is not much shame to this scheme. Parents of the previous and present governor received such assistance - even though their sons were wealthy. There was one difference. Cuomo's mother exhausted $200K of assets before seeking public assistance. Pataki's father transferred the deed to the $1 million family farm before going into a nursing home at public expense.
(No shame in the loophole for the affluent elderly to avoid pauperizing themselves, transferring assets to children, and entering a nursing home at public expense.)
The affluent move to state with lower tax rates and whine like hell about taxes in NYC. Even if they work in Manhattan, they can move to Connecticut of NJ. They leave their elderly parents behind, to be paid for by those still living here in higher taxes and (in NYC) inferior schools. Good things those immigrants and yuppies work and pay taxes; they had better not expect much in return.
That's one factor.
The fact that the FEDs pay just 50 percent of New York State's Medicaid expenses is a second factor.
But the fact that New York spends TWICE AS MUCH per Medicaid recipient is a third factor. Much of that goes to support a patronage system.
Did you hear the one about the Medicaid-funded adult day care program for those whose children care for them at home? It turns out that a politically connected SOB opened up a party center for old people who weren't even sick, and billed Medicaid for millions! There is a lot of that here in NYC. It's what the Democrats in the state legislature get in exchange for the Republicans in the rest of the state getting more than its share of education and transportation spending. Those living elsewhere don't get much value for that money either.
My family? My grandparents are here, and have transferred assets to their children. As they get older and sicker, they'll end up in nursing homes at public expense. My parent's generation? Two families of government employees in New York. One person with many health and other problems on public assistance and SSI, also in New York. Two families led by successful businessmen, NOT living in New York. Why, my Dad asks me, do you live in a state where taxes are so high? Well, for one thing I also work for the government. I also ask "who do you think will pay the taxes for Grandma?"
In addition to believing we can no longer give the health care industry twice as much for the same people, I also gave a campaign contribution to Bradley (my first ever) because he promised a federal takeover of Medicaid.
You got wordperfect? I've got a paper that explains it all. I also have a word version, but without the charts.
Nursing home costs are higher in NY than in most other states. There are many reasons for this. However, if a small percentage of people is consuming more than half of the total expenditures as opposed to other states, then this goes a long way to explaining the added per capita cost. You cannot reach conclusions on an issue from a single statistic.
The federal medicaid program is a collection of programs to which individual states could subscribe. Different programs are funded at different rates. NY State said gimme all. That explains part of the difference between funding levels between NY and many other states. This decision was made by the Rockefeller administration and approved by the Republican legislature.
Did you hear the one about the Medicaid-funded adult day care program for those whose children care for them at home?
Caring for a parent can be a 24+/7 proposition. Burnout is common. Adult daycare respite centers can keep caregivers going. I hope nobody has to care for a parent with moderate to advanced Alzheimers.
I brought these off topic comments up because I objected to your assertion that were it not for Medicaid there would be no mass transit funding problems. I feel this attitude engenders the same "gimme all" reaction, when it comes to bond issues.
"Gimme All"
I'd settle for NYC spending at the local government national average, as a share of the income of NYC residents, on transportation, education and recreation. We are way below that.
In exchange, I'd say that spending 60 to 70 percent more than the national average on Medicaid ought to be sufficient. The state and local taxes NYC residents had to pay to fund Medicaid accounted for 2.6 percent of all their personal income in FY97. The national average is 1.0 percent.
Gimmie all and then some. I think a lot of patronage is riding on the back of sympathy for the elderly and those who care for them. I've never heard the elderly say they are getting such a great deal in New York, or heard anyone else say that other things and people have been sacrificed to give them that deal.
If that's the case, I'd like to see someone say so. I suspect the truth is worse.
[You got wordperfect? I've got a paper that explains it all. I also have a word version, but without the charts.]
Larry, I'd love a copy if it's not too much trouble. joshhill@mindspring.com--I don't have Wordperfect; not sure if Word would import the wp version successfully.
[Looks like at least 50% of medicaid is for long term care for the elderly. Only 180 days of such care is covered by medicaid.
Long term care is so expensive that it will generally wipe out one's life's savings. Some states, with lower medicaid costs, will require that the elderly's children be similarly pauperized before the parent qualifies for public assistance.
New York exempts the children from pauperization. (There is an allowance for an non-institutionalized spouse.) This has provided a convenient loophole for the middle and upper classes. The parents will voluntarilly "pauperize" themselves by transferring their assets to their children. This way they can leave a substantial inheritance to their children and receive the required long term care at the public's expense.]
No state requires an elderly person's children to exhaust their own assets in order for the parent to qualify for Medicaid. Even spouses now get some asset protection, which they didn't in the past. Most if not all states do make claim to any assets which an elderly person transferred to his or her children (or possibly to other relatives, I'm not sure of the details) within X years of applying for Medicaid benefits. Three years is the most common "X." I would be highly surprised if New York were any different - in other words, an elderly New Yorker cannot transfer assets to his or her children and then get Medicaid immediately, at no risk to the assets.
Different laws therefore don't explain why New York's Medicaid spending is so grotesquely out of line with the rest of the country. One possible reason, which I've mentioned before, is that the relatively higher percentage of single people in New York means that fewer of the elderly have families who can provide care, necessitating reliance on nursing homes or paid home health care. I wouldn't imagine that's anything close to a complete explanation, however. What's much more likely is that New York is full of wasteful spending and outright fraud. Until that can be addressed, we can forget about adequate funding for transit (and many other things).
No state requires an elderly person's children to exhaust their own assets in order for the parent to qualify for Medicaid.
My assertion was related specifically to public assistance for long term care. The ability for a state to require substantial assistance from children came up in a conversation with a representative of the Alzheimers' Association. She specifically mentioned one of NY's neighboring states. I would assume that they had far more first hand anecdotal and and thorough knowledge on this subject than most of us.
...What's much more likely is that New York [Medicaid] is full of wasteful spending and outright fraud. Until that can be addressed, we can forget about adequate funding for transit (and many other things)
I'm against waste and fraud in all programs - not just social programs. One of the biggest frauds was the assertion back in 1957 that an interstate highway program was required for national defense. However, lack of adequate funding is no excuse for poor management of the existing, inadequately funded facilities.
Defense was just a way to justify federal involvement. The interstate highway system is important for many other reasons.
[All you'd have to do is reduce the City's per-capita spending levels on Medicaid (not Medicare) to the national average. There'd be so much money no one would know how to spend it.]
Yes, sorry for the slip.
I thought Florida politicians were bad until I became a regular on SubTalk and was reminded of how crooked the NY politicians are. NY takes the prize!
The Florida politicians are just as bad, if not worse. Its citizens are not as vigilant.
[Yeah, but you need rock solid assurance that the money:
1) is sufficient for all the projects promised
2) will be spent on those projects and only those projects
3) be spent in an expeditious manner so that inflation doesn't eat up its value.]
Regarding #2, the lesson of the Beame Shuffle makes it imperative that diversion of funds NOT be permitted in an emergency, no matter how dire the situation might be.
[Evidently, the Albany Times Union is reporting some folks in the NYS Senate are pushing a transportation bond issue for roads and transit. I'm sure the city, with 40 percent of the state's population, would be bound to get 15 percent of it.
Seriously, I like the idea of more improvements (we all have a big list), but not the idea of more debt. Moreover, there isn't much Upstate needs, they can't afford to pay for what they don't need, and they sure as hell aren't going to want to pay back the bonds while getting not much in return.
However, this may be the best shot for the full 2nd Avenue Subway and other improvements in the city, along with the new Tappan Zee, LIRR to GCT, MetroNorth to Penn, etc.]
The problem I have here is that as you say, most of it will be spent outside the City, but half of it will be paid back with City tax money. It seems to me it would be much more economical for the City to just pay for its own transportation needs; we should know by now that every time we go to Albany we end up getting screwed.
I'm not sure if this was ever discussed in Subtalk. I searched for it and came up with no results.
Does anyone out there remember the "home movie" nights the late Roger Arcara used to hold in the Bronx YMCA on Westchester Ave? Roger used to show home videos made of the NY Westchester & Boston, the 3rd Avenue El, the World's Fair, Freedonland, and others.
He used to hold hold them every six months or so and at those events there were books, slides, videos, etc. that used to be sold.
Sadly, Roger passed away a few years ago and it appears to have stopped. I had the honor of attending two of these events. I regret that I didn't know about them earlier so I could have attended more of them.
Did anyone out there also attend these movie nights? Thanks.
Alas, Roger is gone and so is the YMCA building. It is now a bank.
I was never able to make any of Roger's events but I do know that they
were very popular.
Perhaps someone else will one day show their "home movies". (How about it Mark?)
Don't think I haven't given it some thought .....
But I'd need a really big screen TV to show the videotape on .....
--Mark
Well, the New York Division of the ERA still has their monthly meetings with slide/video presentations. They also have "for-sale" tables before the meetings.
--Dave
A correction, o webmaster: We don't show videos at NYD meetings, though the idea's been bandied about a few times. NYD has no machinery with which to show videos; we'd have to see whether the College of Insurance does and how much they'd charge to let us use them at a meeting.
We do, however, occasionally show movies.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Sorry, I guess I was lumping "moving pictures" into one big category of video :-)
-Dave
The WMATA Blue Line extension to Largo got the funding from governor Glendenning. They say the line will be open in 4 years (before you do the equation to find the real opening). Why don't they get the money to have a shuttle from the line to FedEx Field. Getting to RFK by train was alot better.
They do.
Go to http://www.wmata.com/MET_NEWS/redskins.htm. (I have the instructions to create the link, but they're at home and I'm at work.)
Michael
Not that. I meant a train shuttle. Right now, you pay $3 for a 20 minute shuttle ride. This discourages people to take Metro causing congestion on 495 on the PG side.
If it's all at grade maybe they'll open on time or a year or so ahead of it. I heard 2005, now 2004, let's keep our fingers crossed.
How are they doing with the Green Line? Is that still on or ahead of schedule?
Wayne
Opens in about a year.
Governor Glendenning's transit money in in the budget that he submits to the General Assembly every January. The GA can't add, but they sure can cut, and the Eastern Shoremen and the Westerners will love to screw Baltimore & DC, who get the lions share of the cash.
If we can get rid of the d****d 50 per cent farebox recovery requirement that has been bedeviling the MTA since 1970, the 2000 session will be a success.
One of the items in Glendenning's submission was "money for double-tracking the Central Light Rail Line - which is underway as we speak and is being paid with Federal Funny Money. His sounds like pol grandstanding to me.
This afternoon at about 3, I was waiting for the SB exp train. An old redbird number 4 train arrived at the station. I went in but the train could not leave, b/c 2 of the doors in the 5th car wouldn't shut. The conductor came out open the panel under the maps on the side wall, and closed the dorrs. He returned to his cabin, and even though the doors were shut, the train didn't recognise them as shut. Anyway, the train had to go out of service. Some guy on the back of the train, was sleeping. He finally woke up, and saw the train cars empty. He ran and jumped out of the train, but his briefcase got stuck in the door. The motorman bypassed the doors, and the train started to move with half the guy's briefcase in the train, the other half outside the train. Ppl tried to grab the briefcase out of the train as it exited the station, but had no luck. The train exited the station, made the turn and left with the guys briefcase sticking out. Everybody on the platform was laughing. The guy was really mad though. The station agent took him down to the end of the platform to fill out a report. I just hope the briefcase didn't fall off or hit something. I could just imagine the reaction of the ppl at 14th street, seeing a briefcase stick out an out of service train as it spead by.
Clark
Clark: It seems the "new" #4 train has more than its share of wierd things happening to it. That never happened when the Sea Beach carried the #4. So, I'm a soil sport living in the past. That's part of this website's charm. We can do all sorts of things on it. For the record, my favorite letter is N. Navy, Notre Dame, Nicholas (my favorite name), etc. I'd better watch it before the TA makes another switch and gives the Sea Beach a new identity.
It seems the "new" #4 train has more than its share of wierd things happening to it. That never happened when the Sea Beach carried the #4
You mean that noone's briefcase ever got caught in the door of a Triplex on the Sea Beach going out of service? The next time I'm in NY, I'll have to carry an old empty briefcase on the Sea Beach, wedge it in the door and take a picture of it as the train is leaving the station. Then, I'll post the pic on SubTalk. :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The real question should be: did a train of Triplexes ever have to dump its load and be taken out of service? Those cars kept going and going and going..... Now the two which collided at Stillwell Ave., well, that's another story.
Say, Fred, who do you root for when Notre Dame and Navy play each other? The way N. D. flushed their season down the toilet, they should play the Little Sisters of the Poor.
Steve B -8AVEXP: I don't follow Notre Dame any more because I hate Bob Davie. He is a chronic loser and whiner. I'll root for them once they can that bum. As for Navy, I have a strong feeling for them, and when they defeat Army I'm in 7th Heaven. They used to do that regularly but have been in a slump lately, though they have won two of the last three.
Is anyone on the site familiar with the above book?
Does it have anything about transit in it?
I read a brief review of the book which was supposed to have been published about 13 years ago. It sounds interesting.
Yes, I have a copy right here at my desk. Author is Elliot Willensky. Copyright '86.
A *must have* for anyone from Brooklyn or with any interest at all in old Brooklyn.
It has a detailed section on the subways in a chapter called "The Culver, The Sea Beach, The Canarsie Line." Maps and photos as well.
Many other interesting topics such as the building of the Gowanus Expressway, area high schools, 1930's gang activity, Coney Island, and of course 'Dem Bums...
A real "Brooklyn the way it was" treat!
Sounds interesting... I wonder if it's available on Amazon.com.
Another book on my wish list is "Gotham : A History of New York City to 1898" by Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace. Has anybody out there read this book? Any comments about it?
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
bought yes read not quite yet--its quite large. Did look up tyransit in the index--not much but then that's what I expected. I expect to browse it over the years.
I've read both books, and both are quite good. "When Brooklyn Was the World" is more fun and nostalgic. "Gotham" is more scholarly.
Not to quibble, but my problem with Gotham is, for the most part, the lack of a "control group." It doesn't compare New York with other cities in the U.S., to give and indication which outcomes were due to local conditions and decisions and which are due to broader trends. The only sense you get is from the comparison between New York and Brooklyn.
For example, I've always wondered why Philadelphia is composed of one-family rowhouses, while New York has apartment buildings and two-t o four family homes. Living in a "Philadelphia-Style" one family rowhouse with a front porch, it makes me wonder.
Thanks for the response! You've made it sound like a book that I want to read. I will check out the book search services.
Karl: I have it and it is a great book. They have a subway map of the late 1930's in there and, for the most part, it was a BMT map of the 40's as well. There is my #4Sea Beach taking its normal route to Coney Island. They talk about the Dodgers and Coney Island, too. They were my three favorite things about Brooklyn when I was a kid. Though I lived mostly in Queens, I spent countless hours in Brooklyn with my relatives there.
Sea Beach Fred,
Thanks for the endorsement, I see that there are several available in the search services. I will order a copy tonight. The title indicates that it covers up to 1957, which is the year I left the city, so it should suit me just fine. I grew up in Brooklyn, although I was in the east end, just five blocks from Woodhaven, Queens.
Karl, I too am interested in the book, please let me know where you are getting it from so I can order it also
Well, the last chapter mentions Levittown, and is entitled 'Lend me your car'
-Hank
You left the last year of the Brooklyn Dodgers so your timing was right. Brooklyn has never been the same since they left, no matter what anyone says. Brooklyn was the Dodgers. When youy thought of the borough that's what first came to mind---yes even before the Sea Beach and Coney Island. We have the Dodgers out here but I don't root for them. I'm a Mets fan. I lived in Long Island City, less that a mile from the Brooklyn border.
Leo Durocher put it best: something went out of baseball when the Dodgers left Brooklyn, and neither all the king's horses nor all the king's men can ever put it back again.
It didn't stop there. Many Brooklynites mourned the passing of the Triplexes and BMT standards. Talk about a 1-2 punch.
I wanted to let you all know that I got my copy of the above titled book. I haven't actually read it yet but I have scanned through it, and it appears to be a very interesting book about Brooklyn. From what I have seen so far it would seem to be a "must have" for every former Brooklynite. It does not have any large amount of coverage on transit in Brooklyn, although there is one picture of passengers on the "Last Lex" in 1950. I'm not sorry I ordered it based on fellow SubTalker's recommendations.
Now, if you were to pick yourself out in that photo, THAT would be something! (You were on that last Lex train, were you not?)
You bet I was! I made the entire round trip riding on one of the platforms between cars. I knew a lot of flash pictures were being taken though. You know, that was at the time when flash bulbs were good for one picture, and then they were thrown away. A guy on my platform was taking pictures during the trip, and by the end of the trip, he had both of his overcoat pockets filled with expended flashbulbs.
I just wish I was the guy with the metal sign in his hand. In those days adult males wore ties, hats and overcoats. The overcoats apparently concealed all of the metal route and destination signs that were on the six car train. By the end of the trip, there wasn't one sign left, either displayed, or in the sign boxes of any of the cars.
IRT 1 and IRT 7 Schedule Changes,,Effective May 2000
IRT 1
Freq will be from every 15 to 12 min s ..Presently 20 to 15 minute Freqs..bet 5 AM to and 6 AM ..SOUTHBOUND TRAINS on Broadway Manhattan .
IRT 7
Saturdays
bet 6 to 7 Am
Freqs wil be every 10 to 5 Minutes,presently 12 to 6 mins freq
Bet 10 AM to 1130 AM
every 5 mins frmo every 6 minutes
bet 7 PM and 8 Pm
presently every 5 to 8 min
,,will be 5 to 6
Sundays
Bet 6 AM ---7 AM
now every 15 to 12 mins...willl be every 12 to 10 mins.
Bet 7 AM to 8 AM
now every 12 to 16 mins
will be every 8 Mins
bet 8 am to 10 AM
now every 10 to 8 Min
will be every 8 to 7 Mins.
bet 10 AM to 2 PM
now every 6.5
will be every 6 mins
bet 7 PM to 8 PM
onw every 8 mins
will be every 6 Mins
Nice to have a few extra trains.
As Mel Allen used to say, "How about that?"
what is the length and height and also the width of the R-17.also will like to know where I can find the measurement drawing like the blueprint plan drawing,TRYING TO BUILT TO SMALL SCALE.can somebody help me with the information. thank you for the help.
R-17: 1955, St.Louis Car Company
Length over couplers: 51' 4"
Length over anticlimber: 51' ½"
Width over threshold plates: 8' 9½"
Height maximum: 11' 107/8"
Minimum head room: 6' 117/8"
Height from rail to car floor: 45½"
Wheel base: 6' 10"
Truck centers: 36' even
Wheel diameter: 34"
Floor area including cabs 285 sq. ft.
The Unit numbers should be in the range of 6500 through 6899.
Hope this helps
Wayne
From New York City Transit Authority Passenger Car Data 1968
Why does the sign on the R142 in the NY1 video say "2 CROWN HTS-UTICA"? Why would this sign be on there anyway?
This was probably only up for "testing". It doesn't really matter what the sign says, as long as it works. It might have even been placed there by the manufacturer.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
One of my favorite shows finally came back last week.
It looks like the credits for "NYPD Blue" have been altered a bit. Not only did they compress all those shots of the Flushing Line into 8 seconds, it looks like some new stuff is there too.
IMHO, it's the only New York cop shw with a New York feel to it(even without the hard-assing and such and such).
And I'm told it's filmed in LA. How's that for irony?
Anyone know how high the 155 street viaduct is? Looks pretty high to me. If someone wants to jump off, its going to be a long way down.
I remember when Mark was talking I was comparing the floors of the Polo House buildings to the bridge. I counted 9 stories at its highest point. Now imagine a subway station here. That would beat smith/ 9th street most likely.
On Monday (1/17) at Hicksville Station, I saw two mobile construction offices in the parking lot. Anyone know what is in the works?
Unfortunately I'm not allowed in the Hicksville Parking lot 'cause I don't have a Town of Oyster Bay sticker.
The LIRR is replacing signal bridges with wayside signals on both sides of Hicksville.
Hmmm, an upgrade to Divide Tower?
New signal huts are being erected along the ROW. also adjacent to alternate signal bridges, new signals are being installed. Not necessarilly an upgrade to Divide, as such but the signal bridges require maintenance and space that the new signals will not need.
Topic Change!
>Topic Change!
Yeeeeeha!!
>Topic Change!
Yeeeeeha!!
So the webmaster can lock the topic (Post or Topic Lock), and nobody can post on it anymore.)
I read on lordsofpain.net that there is a site which can
permit the Webmaster to block posters or ISP's on a message
board!!
Not that severe really, a "Post Lock", a cgi script that locks the thread so that no one can add a post to a particular subject.
Our illustrious webmaster has blocked certain ISPs from time to time when flamage got out of hand. The downside to that is that other posters who had nothing to do with the situation also couldn't post. Registration of posters could be established but that increases overhead and would probably discourage the occasional poster, which most of us were at first. The best solution is for everyone to behave themselves and post responsibly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am going to be in the city sometime this Spring for a whole 11 hours while connecting planes. I plan to do some rail faning . I have 2 questions about the fun pass if someone can help me. 1-Are they sold at LaGuardia Airport at the Hudson Newsstand, and if not how about at Subway Stations. Thanks
You can buy them online at metrocard.citysearch.com
FUNPASS Is Not Sold At Token Booths PERIOD!!
Best bet is online as others have given the URL. I order MONTHLY cards from the online site wihtout problem.
Take the M60 bus to the Astoria N line would be your best bet. IMHO.
I can also add that FUNPASSes are not sold at LaGuardia Airport. However pre-packaged value cards are ($6, $15, etc.).
So at worst your day trip to NYC will cost you $5.50; $1.50 for the bus (take the Q-33 to Roosevelt Ave. where there are MetroCard Vending Machines) then $4 for the FUNPASS.
A couple of other options to consider:
1. Buy on-line from CitySearch & buy 4 FunPasses to meet minumin, this would mean that you plan more then one trip. On-line look for the "Special" MC section, you may find the graphics a nice souvenir.
2. Buy a value pass at La Guardia. You will have a year to use up the remaining value on the MetroCards & you have another year to turn them in for a refund/exchange ... I'm not absolutely positive how they work the "time" cards that have never been used vs. value, but they'll do something for you.
I also like Todd's suggestion to take the bus to Roosevelt, because there you can catch the #7 El for a lovely view of Manhattan, plus you'll probally ride a Red Bird ... you could even switch at Queens Plaza and wait for a Slant 40. Going back by the M60 bus might not be a bad idea also. You can catch that bus at Columbia University at 116th (IRT) or IND 125th station.
Mr t__:^)
there are two kinds of MetroCards:
1- Regular: officially called pay-per-ride: this has money on the card and can be refilled. Uou can trade them in at any booth (or MVM) for up to 1 year after the date printed on the back of the card. Station Agents can trade in damaged cards ***if*** the card can be inserted into the computer in the booth.
2-Unlimited: officially called "Time-based MetroCards" these are good until 12 midnight on the seventh day imcluding first day of use. Station Agents ***can not** fix problems with unlim,ited cards= they must give you an envelope to send to 370 jay Street. They can be used up to the date printed on the back. They do not start until swiped at the turnstile or dipped into the bus farebox.
The fun pass is a specialzed kind of unlimited card that is good until 3am the day after first use.
If you use an unlimited card for the first time at 11:58pm you have two minutes left on day one!
sugegstion: if you will not get at least 3 rides on any one calendar day then use a regular card for the balance of that day and start your unlimited the next day.
Buying one online is not an option due to their minimum order. Perhaps you could have someone here mail one to you?
You can buy a Fun Pass at any Metro Vending Machine. That's how I get them.
Me too. I usually use a credit card, but if I have a 5 or 10 dollar bill (preferrably the latter) I pay with that so I can get reasonable forms of the $1 unit.
Ok, You all seem interested. Here is the numbers of all stored museum cars. All cars are in Coney Island yard unless otherwise noted. If any of you are interested in helping out with our restoration project, Privately E-Mail me.
BRT/BMT AB or "BMT Standard":
2390, 2391, 2392
BMT D Type triplex:
6019A,B,C, 6112A,B,C
IRT Lo-V:
5290, 5292, 5443, 5483
IRT Worlds Fair Steinway:
5655
IND R-1-9:
103, 381, 491 (Ex-401), 923, 925, 1000, 1300, 1802
IND/BMT R-10:
3184, 3189(School car, Pitkin yard)
BMT/IND R-16:
630?, 6339
Non revenue:
BMT loco 6, BMT loco 7, BMT loco 5000, I'll have to check #'s for everything else(Non-Revenue)
I believe that is it. If I find any that I missed, I'll post them
That R16 is 6305, friend.
-Stef
Friends,
It should also be noted that other Museum Cars have come and gone through Coney Island. There's an R12/14 combo that's unaccounted for. 5782 and 5871 are floating around somewhere these days. R16s 6387 and 6398 were also stored here. 6398 is The Transit Professional and Harry's Car (TMNY), while 6387 is currently at the Museum. Each of the Lo-V Motors have spent time at NYTM, while 4902 spent some time outside at Coney Island Yard before returning to the Museum. BMT Steeple Cabs 6 and 7 were also at the Transit Museum before leaving for Coney. Mark forgot to mention that an IND Motorized Flat Car (R3 Contract), Drill Motor 41 (formerly of the Museum) also resides in the yard.
Anything else that I fail to mention, Mark will be sure to fill in the gaps.
-Stef
were are the r 1 thru r 9 stored and do they run ?????
They are all stored at Coney Island. You can, however, find 3 units at the Transit Museum.
-Stef
They would be R-1 #100, R-4 #484, and R-7A 1575, none other than the R-10 prototype.
I think you got them all the ones at Coney (*) and all of them are reflected in the Museum Roster. The mysterious R16 is 6305, there's a picture of it on the Museum Roster. There's still other cars on NYCTA property as Stef points out.
* - unless you count R30's... My list that shows 8289/8290, 8392, and 8424/8425 are at Coney. Are they still there?
As far as I know, at least 4 of the 5 R30s are accounted for. 8392? I would expect it to be there as well. Any scrap reports I get, I'll be sure to pass on.
-Stef
Thanks for reminding this lazy person of the very extensive listing including many fine photos of our favorite subway cars that you and others have provided for us all to view ... just a click away !
Mr t__:^)
Mark W./Stef,
- Which one of these is the "Money Car" ?
- Am I misstaking the R-16s for IRT Red Birds that I saw on a recent tour of Coney Island ?
Mr t__:^)
I don't consider the Money Car to be anything official. The R21 (as it was) became nothing more than a movie prop for someone's production. It's debatable as to whether or not the Webmaster should even consider putting it on the Museum List even though it's not an official Museum Car. I wonder what it would take to undo all those modifications? It's more than likely that the car's operational, and surprisingly, it's still at Coney island Yard, so I guess it's not on the endangered species list.
The R16s were never redbirds in the modern sense, although a few were painted red in the past. 6305 as I recall, is all silver right now, awaiting a restoration someday. 6339 is partly in fire engine red, and blue silver on the end. I have reason to believe that some work may have taken place on this car a time ago. If you travel up the B line past P.S. 248 (near Bay 50th St) you'll actually see a modern redbird, R16 #6452.
You say you saw redbirds? Those must have been some Flushing Cars getting repairs, unless you were looking at out of service R30s.
-Stef
We did see some IRT Red Birds inside under service, but what I was refering to was a few Red Bird appearing cars outside that weren't physically on the Railway Preservation Corp/TA Museum tracks, but in that general area. It was said that they were Red Birds that were there but that Mike Hanna realy didn't have much interest in. More recently one or two of them were moved on the tracks that run right next to the F line on McDonald (you could see them as you left the Ave X station).
I had come to the belief that the TA had put them their for possible sale to interested museums, e.g. Illinois
Mr t__:^)
Illinois Railway Museum did a very smart thing a few years back: they acquired a number of streetcars from CTA's private collection which would otherwise have been scrapped. I found this out when I was out there in 1996. We were out on the mainline in an Illinois Railways interurban car when someone struck up a conversation about, IIRC, Chicago's PCCs. I mentioned that IRM has Green Hornet 4391, the sole survivor, and that the lone remaining Blue Goose (that's what Chicago's prewar PCCs were known as) #4021 was in CTA's collection. Much to my surprise, the motorman heard me and said they had acquired 4021 along with some other cars when CTA didn't want them anymore. I went to one of the barns and, sure enough, there they were. 4021 was painted in its original colors, but wasn't operable. It had been converted to one-man operation in 1952 along with the rest of its sister units, resulting in one center exit door being sealed, and was retired in 1955 or 1956.
Also included in the acquisition was Old Pullman #460, a sister of IRM's #144, which is operable. (Doesn't Seashore have an Old Pullman?) Its paint appeared faded, but otherwise it looked pretty good. My aunt once sent me a clipping of a photo of 460 being moved to a different storage location in 1978 in the dead of night. All of CTA's collection was kept under wraps in storage, and the general public never saw any of this stuff. They had hoped to build a museum to display their collection, but that never happened.
Shoreline at Branford's "Ride Down Memory Lane" lists #3323(605) Pullman PCC, i.e. Dallas Car. I haven't seen it physically, but have seen the SEPTA Red Arrow , they had two of these but sold/swapped one of them. The one left looks nice on the outside, but doesn't operate.
Mr t__:^)
Seashore's Red Pullman #225 was under restoration for many years and returned to service in late 1998. Although it was laid up with bearing problems last fall, it is expected to see some use in 2000.
These cars were designed to last, and they did. 225 was in service for a full 50 years and at the end exhibited places where the floor showed deep wear from customers feet, some of which are still evident within the carbody. Much of the restoration on this car involved repairing or replacing material which had simply worn away!
Yes, Chicago's Old Pullmans were synonimous with Chicago Surface Lines. They were workhorses, to say the least. Surprisingly, Shore Line's collection does not include one of them.
I've been warching For Pete's Sake. In one scene Barbara Streisand rides the LL train. The errors:
1- Boardsd at Court Street IND (Transit Museum)
2- COlor stripe wrong shade of blue
3- Signs showing trains To "Manhattan" and "Brooklyn"
4- Orange turnstiles (Wooden) and ornage slam gates
5- Next stop: Clark Street- an IRT station
6- Clark Street has no stripe!
Ah, Vacation- still cant get away from the trains--I'm hooked on trains!
Try to get a copy of "Bells Are Ringing" form the '60's. Dean Martin is walking into a phone booth on the subway station. In the background we see a BMT Standard enter, pulling flat cars (garbage train perhaps) and BMT Standards bringing up the rear. Shortly after, a road train comes in, again BMT Standards, doors open, compressors churning, doors close and accelerates out, motors growling. Great scene; must hav been a railfan directing that movie.
Joe C.
Try to get a copy of "Bells Are Ringing" from the '60's. Dean Martin is walking into a phone booth on the subway station. In the background we see a BMT Standard enter, pulling flat cars (garbage train perhaps) and BMT Standards bringing up the rear. Shortly after, a road train comes in, again BMT Standards, doors open, compressors churning, doors close and accelerates out, motors growling. Great scene; must hav been a railfan directing that movie.
Joe C.
What's new?
Dear Friends of SubTalk,
I've been reading multiple posts (like those on subway grafitti) here over the last hour, and I must say that it's gotten personal. Let us try to establish a state of calmness here. There's too much tension.
Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion, no matter how it might seem. Express your dissatisfaction if you must, but with a level of professionalism. Calling someone an "idiot or immature" ain't gonna cut the mustard, it just adds to the tension. As annoying as it may seem, even people who say the same thing over and over again, is freedom of expression. Everyone's best bet is to say your peace and move on, as it's not worth getting angry about. After a while, if someone's posts do seem annoying, I suggest ignoring a post in general as it may be considered by some to be assinine. Eventually, I believe the topic will die down instead of coming back.
It takes a lot to get me riled up, and I've exploded on this site recently at somebody. As a result of that, I just don't bother to respond to that person's posts. But keep this in mind: If you're going to attack someone, expect to get the same treatment in return.
However, you should do your best to keep the tension at a minimum.
I know a number of the people on this site, and I can say that I like all of you. We share a common interest, and it's called trains. It's a hobby and you should go on enjoying it. You'll find it to be a rewarding experience as each of you can exchange ideas with each other, and gain a new friend. I've learned from others here, and I can say that the Bulleitn Board has been a great reference tool. I will continue to browse through here looking to exchange ideas with each and everyone of you.
With That I'll Leave You by saying, this is your hobby, enjoy it to it's fullest. The personal rhetoric needs to be left to the side.
-Constantine Steffan (aka Stef)
Beautifully put, Stef. ALL of us really needed to hear that!
Besides, remember, THIS IS DAVE PIRMANN'S WEBSITE. He's paying the bills here, not us. We should respect that by staying as close to topic as we can. Sure, there will be times when we stray, but the straying should not overwhelm the threads where it goes on and on and on, adinfinitum.
I myself have been guilty of off-topic posts. But, I have cut down on doing so quite a bit.
Let's all do our best to keep things transit related, or take them off-line. Or better, start your own websites devoted to whatever might be your pet-peeve of the week.
Doug aka BMTman
Thank You, Thank You! Let get back on track and not give the Webmaster unnecessary grief. I don't know about everyone else here, but it's time to move on, and leave this ugly episode behind....
-Stef
01/19/2000
I noticed there is a full moon tonight.......coincidence?
Bill Newkirk
HA! That's a good one. There is a full moon, because you have a lot of hungry wolves out here....
-Stef
AroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooArrarrooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Another good one. An advantage of being on this site is to be amused by some of the folks here. That's what we need. Fighting amongst ourselves isn't necessary. Can't we all get along?
-Stef
> He's paying the bills here, not us.
And if you guys knew how much money you squander away ... ;-)
You mean in telephone bills and unlimited access? I have an Idea...
This month's slide show is presented by Glenn Smith. It will be a New York City show with slides from the past and now. To quote the meeting notice:
It is fascinating how some areas of the city, and the transit lines that served them, are almost unrecognizaeable while other areas have changed very little. Scenes will be from as far back as over 100 years ago and as recent as earlier this week. We will view many transportation sites that have been vastly improved as well as those that have been lost.
On a personal note--- I posted earlier that I was going to disrupt the regularly scheduled program to read 5000 of my most asinine posts from SubTalk. I have been enjoined by the Directors of the ERA from disrupting Glenn's show. However they made two concessions to me: 1) I will be given time at the end of the slide show which is tentatively scheduled to end at 1:30 Sunday morning, to begin my reading. I suggest interested people bring a picnic basket with a day and half's meals, as well as a change of clothing.
2) I will be allowed to bring my barbecue grill, and I will be selling frankfurters, hamburgers, and a nice selection of ice cold drinks.
Seriously though, if you have never been to the ERA monthly meetings, here are some details:
1. It is in the College of Insurance Building at 101 Murray Street in Manhattan. This is about 3 blocks from the Chambers Street station of the West side IRT ( and about 7 miles from the 207th Street stop on the A line) Other subway lines are nearby as well as PATH. ( If you are coming by Greyhound, just walk down 9th Av for about 3 miles ) The doors open at 6:15PM ( the lights go on at 6:30PM ) and the meeting commences at 7:15PM. People sell all kinds of bus and subway slides, books, (sweaters, and imitation Rolex watches). (If anyone expresses some interest, I will bring about 10 or 20 copies of my R9 audio tape for free distribution.)
2. The door fee for Non-members is $5.00. (If you don't want to buy a door, it also costs $5.00 for non-members to see the show. The door fee for Members, who forget this month's secret word, which is RAILFAN WINDOW, is $12.00.
Although I have been a subscriber to the New York Bulletin on and off for many years, I have not gone to many meetings. I mention this month's meeting because some people have complained that nobody mentions events of interest soon enough to make plans to go. Usually, there is plenty of room. I don't think anyone, who has showered in the last two weeks, has ever been turned away from a meeting.
One final joke--- If you should want to speak to me at the meeting, I will only respond in writing to written questions. Direct face to face contact is a little beyond my current level of functioning.
Does anyone out there know if they are doing the R-142 testing on the Dyre Avenue Line yet?
I know this past week has been a VERY COLD one and the freeze has affected switches in this area. Tomorrow they are talking about snow for the area so that may delay testing.
I was curious - figured I can get a chance to see the tests being done and possibly take some pictures. Thanks.
I'll be visiting relatives up in Morris Park tomorrow, and I'll check to see if the R142 is on the test track. If it's gonna snow, I doubt it will.
I think that they should run the R-142 in the snow to see how well the heating systems work and see how it works in snow!
But, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeres the SNOW!, Thats what I'd like to know.
Don't worry, it's coming tomorrow
I think that they should run the R-142 in the snow to see how well the heating systems work and see R-142 does in in snowy weather!
That's a good idea.
These trains will need to perform in all types of weather. And in NY that is a whole grab bag of extremes. From blizzrds to hurricanes to Nor'Easters to everything in between.
Maybe a snow test should be part of their testing program. Of course, I don't work for the NYCTA so it's not in my power if that is the right thing to do.
I agree. That way, they'll find out if those cars will be R-16s in sheep's clothing, or the next BMT standards. The R-16s were allergic to snowy weather.
That's a scary thought -- 1,100 IRT cars allergic to snowy weather.
They'd have to save half the Redbirds and go back to the old BMT Southern Division days, when you'd transfer from the metal subway cars to the wooden els to complete the trip to Coney Island. In this case, all R-142 trips in the Bronx would have to end around 149th St. and the Grand Concourse, where you'd get off and change to a rusty-but-reliable R-29 or R-33 for the remainder of the ride above ground.
Item #236653896: Closes today, January 19. No reserve, minimum bid applies. Manhattan College Engineer, Volume 32, October 1974. Has 6 pages, 3 photos, 2 maps and article on formation and extensions to the subway and elevated system by Stephen F. Mitchell titled: Please Keep Hands Off The Doors. Condition A to A+. •For further info or for additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you would not want to miss some item you may have been looking for. We have over 25,000 items in all categories to be listed in the future.
a huge spider sculpture is suspended from an old signal bridge on the abandoned LIRR Rockaway line, at Liberty Avenue and 99th street. it is visible from the A train. does anyone know who the sculptor is, and what, if anything, the spider is meant to represent?
any tips, leads, or numbers most appreciated.
This was discussed here a few weeks ago. No one knows who put it there, but it is thought to be an artisitc way of calling attention to the decaying nature of the abandonned structure, i.e. that ir is crawling with with spiders and spider webs.
At around noon today I saw an R32 C train on the uptown express track at 34th st. & 6th ave. How did it get there? I can see if it might have been diverted going downtown at 59th st., but uptown?
i always ride the b train over the manhattan bridge and every day i try to figure out what the tunnel right next to the brooklyn bound side is or where does it lead to?? can anybody please answer my question???
It is the Broadway Express. The N used to go from Canal to DeKalb over the bridge. It is being rebuilt and the N is local going through the Montauge Street Tunnel.
no im talking about the north side of the bridge. there is some kind of an entrance. it even has lights now. i was told that the n train on the north side of the bridge. another question that i have is were both sides of the bridge constructed at the same time?
Hey Sea Beach Express: I like your name. I haven't seen you on this website before. Are you a New Yorker and how much do you know about our train?
yeah im from new york. i know a couple of things im only 20 years old i really dont know the termonology to much though. im always on this site just never really dare ask any questions. i just like reading interesting stuff u guys post.
Sea Beach Express wrote--- I enjoy reading the stuff that the guys post.
Do you like reading the posts of heypaul as much as I do? This will give me an idea of whether you are a serious railfan or just a joker.
Heypaul: they used to call Al Schact the "Clown Prince of Baseball". I think you've earned the title "Clown Prince of Railfanning"!
I, for one, enjoy your comic relief on this BB.
Lets answer the question. Before 1967, the north side tracks (the ones you ride on) connected to the Broadway Express, and the south side tracks (which are closed) went south to Chambers Street. After 1967 the north side tracks were connected to the 6th Avenue line and the south side tracks were connected to the Broadway Express.
If you follow look through the site for the discussion of the Chrystie Street connection, you can read all about it.
To answer the other question, yes - the bridge was designed to carry tracks on both sides of the lower roadway. Through the years, however, the heavier traffic has always been carried by the north pair of tracks. Now that the needed repairs to the southerly trackways are almost complete (after 12 years), I shudder to think how long the north side will take to repair.
Gerry
A lot quicker, since the north side is needed more.
At least, I hope.
The real question is what happens AFTER both sides open, and half a billion dollars have been spent. My fear, and expectation, is that cracking will recur, and eventually trains will be ordered off the bridge with no replacement in sight. Armageddon for southern Brooklyn's economy and quality of life.
I believe the bridge will be in a perpetual disrepair should both sides open, but I doubt that the entire bridge would be closed. Their would be political hell to pay should it happen.
Why should it take so long to repair the Northside, didn t they do it in the mid 80s?
This is what I remember reading in the local papers about 15 years ago- The main suspender cables on the south side of the bridge were extremely stretched out, much more so that the cables on the north side. This because the tracks on the south side were under a much greater train traffic load.
To ameliorate this disproportioanl stretching, it was decided to only run trains on the north side for several years, allowing them time to stretch into the same ballpark as the south cables.
Actually, the north side ("AB") tracks have seen much heavier service than the south side ("H") tracks. The AB tracks are the ones currently in use and now connect to Sixth Avenue, while the H tracks, now out of service, connect to Broadway. Prior to 1967 ("Chrystie Street Connection"), the AB tracks connected to Broadway and the H tracks connected to Nassau Street.
David
Supposedly, and I'm no expert on 1950's subway routing, the north side had the D and Q, as it does today. The south side had the B, the N, and the Culver line (before it connected into the IND). I dont know what the BMT number designations were off hand.
Prior to Chrystie Street, most of the traffic allegedly used the south side of the bridge as they were the more popular routes, and thats when the damage was done, during the period from the opening of the bridge, which I think was 1910, until 1967.
Of course, the fact that the expansion joints were frozen solid for 50 years didnt help any.
South side connected to the Nassau Loop until 1967. A train coming off the south side ended up at Chambers Street, which may have been logical in 1915, but by the 1950s, it was mainly used for rush hour service.
The north side, where the B/D/Q run now, handed the Sea Beach and Brighton express lines back then, which did run full time. Even after 1967, the north side still carried the heavier load, since the B and D were full-time services, while the N was only augmented by the rush hour QB. So any excessive stretching should have been on the north side of the bridge. However, the twisting caused by the extra trains on the north side may have caused cracking problems on the south side that have led to the decade-long closing. Or the city may just be incompetent.
Are you sure the south side had only 1 part time service all those years? In any case, what your saying about twisting and cracking makes alot of sense.
Maybe part of the problem, is these defects have been in the bridge for a long time, consultants and contractors come and go, but nobody keeps continuity.
When it was open after Chrystie St., the south side had one full-time service, the N, and one rush hour service, the QB (or Q). The north side always had at least two full-time services operating over it, whether it's the B and the D or the 1 and the 4, or whatever combo the BMT, Board of Transportation, NYCTA or MTA happened to put together.
I remember reading here a while ago that the Manhattan Bridge has a number of design defects to begin with, which certainly complicates things. The most glaring defect, as I recall, was that the tracks were placed on the outer edges of the bridge as oppsed to down the center a la the Brooklyn Bridge. This apparently spells bad news for a suspension bridge due to all the structural dynamics involved.
Also, is it true that the Manny B was designed by the same engineer who designed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge of "Galloping Gertie" fame? Hell of a legacy to live up to there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Prior the Northside had 3 full time services The Brighton Exp, West End Exp and Sea Beach Express. When the Brighton Exp was not running (Nights, Sundays Holidays) The Brighton Local used the bridge, It ran Express in Manhatten and Local in Brooklyn. When that happened only the 4th Ave Local ran thru the tunnel. The South Side had rush hour service to Nassau loop usually by the Culver Line, except during the early 50s when in the summer they rann Sunny Sunday Specials via the Franklin Shutt;e. Brighton Exp, the via Sea Beach Exp, 4th Ave by passing DeKalb and then over the bridge to Chambers.
In the 1950's West End service over the Broadway north side tracks ran on weekends and rush hours only. Weekdays, the #3 (later TT) ran on the south tracks via Nassau St.
In the 50s I remember thw West End ran all the time over the Bridge 24/7 In fact all three lines used the bridge Brighton Exp(local nights and Sundays) Sea Beach 24/7.
Brighton locals (QB) operating via the bridge ran made all stops in the 60s, and then they ran during late nights and weekends only. They evolved from the Theater Special, which may have run express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn.
After Chrystie St, the QB became a rush hour only, peak direction service, and then it ran express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn.
As I stated in earlier posts the Brighton Line Ran 24/7 over the bridge in the 50s. always exp in Man and local or exp in Bklyn
Your influence has rubbed off on me. I've added #4 to my title in deference to your #1. Give yourself a pat on the back but don't get me mixed up with sea beach express. He's another hombre.
Maybe I should add the number 15 to my handle in deference to my favorite line, the Jamaica Ave. el.
Then again, that number was officially dropped 5 years before I was born
¹²³
So use J Instead like J Man
Since we're talking about Eastern Division nicknames, anyone think the rapper Jay Zee got his name from looking at the train signs on the Jamaica Ave. el?
Actually, Jay-Z (as he spells it) probably WAS inspired by the Jamaica El. More than likely, so was the group Cypress Hill.
Thanks. I guess if he had been born 20 years earlier, his handle would have been Cue-J or something like that (he definitely would not have called himself KK)
Yes. Thankfully he has had a more successful career than Brooklyn rapper Bee Em En Arr.
He's from Marcy projects, but I guess G is too short a name. Besides the J,M,Z is not far away........
3TM
So what difference does that make? God for it Chris. I'm all behind you.
Don't let that stop you. BTW, the R-16s running over there still carried #15 signs right up until the Chrystie St. connection opened. I saw and rode on one over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967.
Steve's right. There you have it. I said the same thing. Don't let anything stop you if you want to carry the number 15. Nostalgia is a part, a big part of many of our love of the New York subway. I don't know if you've read some of my fanatical notes, but I use the #4 because that reminds me of my childhood, even though I have no argument with the "N" the Sea Beach now carries. N happens to be my favorite letter, also my wife's. She is a fervent Nebraska Cornhusker fan because that's where she is originally from. My two favorite teams are Navy and Notre Dame. I was born on October 27, Navy Day, and, if I may brag, the day the NYC Subway opened. It opened in 1904, and I was born in 1940. Doesn't this sound like a fanatic?
Yes, I surmised that the wonderfully colorful rollsigns had to have been installed in 1968, given that they lacked the NX and RJ route, while having the KK route.
I think they got their rollsigns at the same time they got their MTA blue-and-white paint jobs, with the green and gray interiors. The R-16 and the R-17 were the first trains to get the MTA paint scheme, though the IRT trains never got the multicolor roll signs.
The multicolored roller curtains came first. The R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s got them up front, plus the R-16s had multicolored side route curtains installed as well. They needed new signs anyway, as they originally had BMT number signs.
I remember seeing an green MM letter code on those colour rollsigns. Does anybody else remember?
Yes, I remember that too. This was for a potential 6thAve/Myrtle Ave. route never implemented.
Hey Chris,do you[or did you] live near the 'J'line like me?
I presently live on Jamaica Avenue, and have since I was 5.
GET OUT!! I use to live on fulton st near the NORWOOD STATION. I moved to BUSHWICK about a block from the CENTRAL AVE 'M'station. Sadly I moved away about 2 years ago to upstate NY, but every so often I travel to the old neighborhoods and see family and friends. Jamaica ave. Huh? small world.
I don't remember actually seeing an MM sign, but my R-7/9 Eastern Division route curtain has that marking.
On the R16, it was green, with the phrase "Lcl via Sixth Av.". Many "M" trains had their front bulkhead signs turned to it, as did the orange JJ signs on R16's running on the J line. I did once, in 1986 see the "K" line use a set of R16's with the signs turned to KK, Sixth Ave. Lcl, although some of the side signs were set to the AA line
Yes, I do too.
I believe the "MM" designation was medium green (like the "GG"), in contrast to the pale blue "M" and reddish "MJ". Occasionally you'd see an R-16 or R-32 with an "MM" sign, more often a headsign than side sign.
Also I recall the R-27/30s had "MM" designations (white on black, with no subtitle, similar to but not identical to the R-9s), often with the first M covered. The result was a sort of "_M" designation with no subtitle. Other rollsigns had the full "M - Nassau St".
I believe there was space for a subtitle, but either it wasnt used or covered up.
I think the signmakers may have used only one "M" stencil on the subtitle-less white-on-black signs that the R-9s had, since the centered "M" was quite narrow, i.e. narrow enough for the "MM" also. The R-9 signs had a bigger font than the R27/30 signs, since they had no subtitle by design and were installed post-Chrystie Street ("QJ", "KK", "JJ", etc)
There were, at one time, some "KK" putins from Metropolitan Avenue, at least two in the AM that I recall personally. So the "MM" ran in sprirt if not in reality!
Galloping Gerty is the twin of the Bronx Whitestone. The Manhattan was designed by Gustave Lindenthal of Hell Gate and Sidney Harbor, but Tammany Hall "engineers" freely made changes to his plans- and probably used reject steel beams and cables. The Queensboro is the twin of the Quebec Harbor bridge, which collapsed just as the last rivets were being driven.
LETS HAVE MORE TUNNELS!
Thanks for the clarification.
If it were up to me, I'd replace the Manny B with a graceful cable-stayed bridge designed by Santiago Calatrava, the same architect who designed the bridge in Spain pictured below. It could become an icon for the New York of the 21st Century, in much the same way the the nearby Brooklyn Bridge is an icon of the New York of the 19th Century.
The two bridges next to each other would be a vivid reminder of just how far we've come.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Cable stayed bridges have a tremendous corrosion problem. Several have already failed and many more are in the process of failing. There are several research projects out to try to find methods to save them.
A replacement bridge or tunnel would have to be paid for. All post 1930 bridges in the NY area have tolls.
The Manhattan Bridge doesn't seem to need a toll no matter how much money we have to spend on it. I'ts already there, so its "free"
The problem with building a new Manny B and putting a toll on it is it would cause drivers to `flee' to the Brooklyn Bridge and Willie B, increasing the load problems on those structures.
Instead of one new bridge with one big toll, they would be better off splitting the toll between all three bridges, though, of course, the hue and cry that would cause would have the politicians running for cover in an instant.
I have a problem with forcing New Yorkers to pay
tolls to move within city limits. Except for the Verrazano toll, because Staten Islanders like to think of themselves as seperate anyway.
Tolls aren't my favorite thing in the world either, which is why I, like most other people, try to avoid the Battery Tunnel, Queens-Midtown Tunnel and the Triborough Bridge going between Manhattan and the other boroughs. But if they ever did replace the Manny B with a new billon-dollar structure, it would be really hard to justify opening it as a free bridge, while if a toll was put on it, cheapskates like me would head for the neighboring bridges unless you spread the toll out between all three structure.
Ideally, the toll would only be on there until the bridge's bonds were paid off, but that's what they said about the Triborough and the NYS Thruway, too, and we're still waiting for the booths to come down.
I would highly recommend the book "Engineers of Dreams", it would answer a plethora of similar questions.
Both the ManB. and Q.B. were largely designed by the city's first bridge commissioner, Guatave Lindenthal.
The QB was essentially built as he desigend, but (to make a long story short) BMT subway trains were routed through a new tunnel under 60th Street in lieu of the Bridge. This was largely because a similar cantilever structure (the CN Quebec Bridge) collapsed during construction, though that bridge incorporated some aesthetic compromises (curved bottom chords) that some say weakened the structure. The QB has no such elements.
Tha ManB was not built entirely according to Lindenthal's designs. The ManB suffers from severe torsional distress, and has been through several generations of stiffening attempts. The assymetrical loading caused by the subway tracks is just one factor. I wouldn't call it a "flaw" since it was intended to be that way, but hopefully the current attempts to stiffen the deck will be successful. Tests were. Poor maintenance by the city over many decades was also a factor in the bridge's decline.
The Tacoma Bridge was a groundbreaking design in that it violated rules of thumb regarding the width of the deck in proportion to the height of the towers; it was too narrow. Hence it oscillated in high winds and collapsed.
The Whitestone Bridge faced similar problems. Stiffening trusses and radial stays were added after its completion. It has been closed several times due to oscillations in heavy winds, but not recently. Moses hated the stiffeners; he called the bridge "The most beautiful structure designed by man", a boast to say the least.
I was stuck on it once in a heavy wind. Believe me, it was unsettling in the least. You dont feel the normal oscillations when driving!
Conrad and David--- Gustav Lindenthal designed and supervised the construction of my favorite bridge in New York or anywhere The Hell Gate Bridge which was completed in 1916. ( My source for this is The Bridges of New York by Sharon Reier published by the very honorable Quadrant Press in New York, publishers of Karl Zimmermanm's wonderful ode the GG1 -- The Remarkable GG1 ) It is the only bridge in New York City, that he both designed and built. It's massive, brooding presence graced with its reverse arch, is part of the legacy that he and the engineers of the PRR left us. It is a lesson in building things to last. When I first read of the bridge, I was blown away by a problem that they had in building it. They discovered that there was a fissure in the bedrock where they had to lay the foundation. They built a concrete bridge over the fault at a cost of half a million dollars. But the image of a bridge underwater over the fault is really overwhelming. I was trying to see if he was involved with the Tacoma bridge. David--- I'm sure you have seen the footage of the bridge's collapse. It is awesome, to see the work of man blowing in the wind..
The Hell Gate Bridge is probably the first major New York landmark I ever laid eyes on once my plane had landed, as I had just arrived at LaGuardia on my first visit to the city and was taking the M60 bus across the Triborough which runs nearby. The Hell Gate bridge certainly commands a presence that cannot be ignored, and it is quite a spectacular sight. (Later on that same weekend I would cross over the Hell Gate Bridge itself during a short side trip to Boston via Amtrak.)
The footage of the Tacoma Narrows collapse is certainly awe-inspiring. I think if there's any lesson in it, it's that whenever mankind attempts to defy the elements of nature, nature will always find a way to come back and bite us on our collective ass.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Wasn t the Hell Gate Bridge actually on the New Haven rather then the Penssy or actually the NY Connecting Railroad?
I believe it was the NY Connecting RR. There is a NY Conn RR Historical Society, either in nascent form or actually established. They have a website. If you (or anyone) is interested I can look up the address, I'll respond Mon or Tues when I have time (lunch hour or early AM).
To those who have an interest in such things, there is also an EXCELLENT website on the obscure Hoboken Shore RR, once a trolley freight operation.
There was a documentary about the Tacoma Narrows Bridge some years back, and it was mentioned that it was built on a shoestring budget. It's quite possible that corners were cut and materials skimped on.
The fact of the matter is that the roadway was indeed very narrow, and the plate girders which were used for stiffening acted as sails on a sailboat, catching the wind instead of letting it through. The gentleman who filmed the collapse was also interviewed.
heypoor,
I notice you're also continuing in my legacy to change my name.
that happened to you too? Iwas on thw bridge during a storm last September[stuck in traffic]due to a tropical storm whatever it name was. that is a very ,very very sick feeling ,especially if your motion sensative [like myself]. I never crossed it again.
Engineers of Dreams is only one of several excellent books by Henry Petroski. Another I would recommend strongly is To Engineer is Human, written some years earlier. It sparked my admittedly amateur interest in stress analysis.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, "Mouse" you wouldn't happen to know the ISBN numbers for those books
Henry Petroski, To Engineer is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design, St. Martin's Press, 1985, ISBN 0-312-80680-9
Engineers of Dreams: Great Bridge Builders and the Spanning of America, Alfred A. Knopf, 1995, ISBN 0-679-43939-0
He has also written Design Paradigms, The Evolution of Useful Things, The Pencil (which I've read and can also recommend but don't have a copy of), and Beyond Engineering.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As an engineer I would highly recommend Petroski's books. He makes sense of the esoteric parts of engineering (esoteric, that is, to non-engineers).
The south side tracks were the first to open (1915) andthe only ones in use for 3+ years. But after the Broadway express tracks opened on the north side, it was this side that saw the most traffic. The North side saw full time Sea Beach, and Brighton (after 1920) service, and rush hour/weekend West End service. The south side saw part time, mostly rush hour service from the West End and Culver lines until the 1950's, when the Culver line was routed to the IND and the "Banker's Specials" loop trains via the Brighton and 4th Ave. express were introduced.
So the north side was always more heavily used, with the exception of 1915-18 and 1986-88.
The number designations were #1 for the Brighton, #3 for the West End, though they used the B standards that didn't carry a number until lmuch later, and #4 for my Sea Beach.
Brighton Red and Green Sea Beach Red and White West End Green and White. 4th Ave Green and Green Brighton Local Northbound White and White, South Bound Red and Red.
Again Bob, it wasn't me. There is another Sea Beach whiz on this line.
Based on what our Southern Division pros have observed, the Triplexes didn't appear on the West End until the final years of their careers.
As you noted in earlier posts, the 4th Ave. local was #2. Culver trains were #5.
I remember vagually in the late 40s that the West End Ran a Triplex on its main line. My mother used to teach at PS 212, across the street from the B50th St Station and her room looked out at the el. It was not the shuttle that ran during rushhours, it used to be a full train.
Actually, the Manhattan Bridge was designed for 6 Rapid and 2 trolley tracks. The lower level was intended for Lexington Ave/Triborough (north) and Canal Street Crosstown (south) trains to New Jersey. Neither line was built, though the Lexington Ave line was actually started in the vicinity of 34th Street and then abandoned. The Canal Street Crosstown line was never built; The Holland Tunnel was built instead. The unconventional track arrangement north of City Hall on the Bway BMT reflects the fact that the Broadway Express track link was an afterthought. You can see bell mouths west of Canal Street lower level (for the NJ proposal), and facing northbound as the north side tracks enter the tunnel (for the Bowery/Lexington Ave proposal). These tracks, now of course go to Chrystie Street. The south side tracks, after many years of Nassau Loop service, now go to Broadway.
The upper south level was intended for Elevated Trains. The thought then was that the Bklyn, Man., and WillB bridges would be linked with an el on Centre Street. Actually a part of this el was built (the ramp leading off the WillB) and removed without ever having seen use. Community opposition and the fact that this el would have to go OVER the 2nd and 3rd ave els prompted construction of the Centre St Subway. Actually this subway too is interesting; it was designed to be operated as two pairs by separate companies; possibly the BRT and NY Railways or the LIRR. But this never happened either. You can see at the Bowery station provision for the Bowery Subway that was never built - an upper level mezzanine.
Eventually the upper level tracks all became trolley tracks. The trolley tracks were operated in pairs by the Bklyn and North River, and the Manhattan Bridge 3c line. The 3c line carbardn still exists as an auto repair shop, Bridge Ford as I last recall.
A compressed history to be certain but this is the story as I understand it!
Tell me more about the Bowery Subway and the LIRR or NY Railways proposal for it. And the Centre Street El.
Brian Cudahy goes into some detail about the Centre St. line in Under the Sidewalks of New York. The BRT wanted to build an el along Centre St., since they were experienced in that sort of thing. City Hall felt otherwise and wanted a subway. El service over the Williamsburg Bridge began in 1908 to what later became the Essex St. Trolley Terminal. It took five years to extend the line to Chambers St., and it wasn't until 1931 that the last leg of the Nassau Loop was finished.
I was thinking more along the lines of Bob Uecker as an analogy.
Well young SBE, with a name like that you've found at least one buddy on this line. Try to find out all you can about the Sea Beach, and tell me why you picked that name. It's a dandy.
I think you're referring to the old tunnel that leads from the north side bridge tracks to the Canal St BMT express platform. Before 1967, the tracks now being used by the B/D and Q led directly to the Canal St BMT station. The south side now carries the Broadway trains (when it was open). They put new lights into the now trackless passageway that the Broadway express trains used to run through. That passageway was unlit until about 2 years ago, and went unnoticed by most people. That passageway eventually leads to the tracks coming off the south side. When the south side reopens, you'll be able to see the opposite end of that tunnel from passing trains.
What the heck was going on with the bridge on Tuesday at about 11:15am? I was stuck on a B train for about 10 minutes with a red signal and trains backed up S/B into Dekalb. We crawled into Dekalb that day.
I really should stop this. But John asked what was the cause of the delay on the Manhattan Bridge on Tuesday which backed up trains all over the bridge?
I heard that they were testing to see how many trains the bridge could support before collapsing.
At the last minute, someone realized it was an election year and they called off the test. It's a shame, they were pretty close to getting some conclusive data.
Your answer is right here.
The C swicthed at West 4th to the 6th Ave local and the to the 6th Ave express north of the station.
It probably switched over from the local tracks at W4th St. to the express tracks just north of W4th St. Remember, only the 6th Ave. express tracks lead to the CPW line, where the C runs. Usually, this switch would be made north of 34th St, with the divirted C running local.
Yesterday I got off the #1 at 181st and found that the station is being renovated with a very open, airy, and pleasing effect. has anyone else gotten a chance to see? What a stark contrast to the dark dungeon appearance of 168th. Are there any plans in the works to renovate 168?
It's good to hear that the work is continuing. I don't get up that way much anymore.
The station was closed for a few months and it was looking nice (but unfinished) when they re-opened. Once the trains started stopping there again, though, the work seemed to end.
Chuck
That's great to hear. 181st is on my list of favorite stations. I Look forward to seeing the renovations on my next trip up there.
I think I'll miss the Gotham-like look, though, if they renovate 168th.
168th has had a partial renovation. They have supplemented those dopey clusters of dim lights in white globes (they LOOK nice but aren't worth a damn as lights) with high-intensity mercury-vapor lights set in cans and hung by rods from the ceiling. It has improved the situation some. They need to sand-blast the ceiling and clean the medallions up there. Also some falling tile here and there in the sections at the ends. It's mostly touch-up work.
Wayne
168 needs to deliver on those "modernized elevators"
we been hearing about since 1980-something.
Re: 168th
They have supplemented those dopey clusters of dim lights in white globes (they LOOK nice but aren't worth a damn as lights) with high-intensity mercury-vapor lights set in cans and hung by rods from the ceiling.
The old lights were pretty much worthless. But they did create a unique spooky atmostphere. Were there ever any movie scenes filmed there?
I was on SIRT (Staten Island Rapid Transit)and have a few comments.
These overhauled R44's give a much rougher ride than the subway trains. It felt as if the wheels were square. Those things are very slow too.
Train was so slow we had to skip a few stops so we'd make the ferry.
There was no heat on the train either, these SIRT trains ride like some of those bad LIRR M-1's.
The buses on the other hand, were all brand new.
They had to be modified to run on "railroad tracks"
SIR trains are not usually slow. Usually, construction work (right now occuring south of Huguenot) will hold up trains. Depending on when you got on, the train may even have been scheduled to skip several stations. As for the rough ride, some of the trains have flat wheels, hey, it happens, but maintainence is generally the same as the subway, and much better than that of the LIRR. As for the lack of heat, I can't say.
They came back from in-house overhaul in terrible condition. Did you happen to notice any peeling paint or cracked walls in the car?
-Hank
Well when we did skip a few stations SIRT was a little faster, but man did that train grind as if it were on square wheels. Reminded me of that horrible Sunday ride I took on the LIRR Port Washington branch.
The trains do get good speed in spots, but are slow to accelerate. The trains weren't as shiny as the subway R44's, however there was less scratchiti with SIRT cars.
What exactly had to be overhauled with these hand me down R44's?
Also, I noticed several signals, that were out (dark). What kind of signal system does SIRT use, do they have any way of stopping trains that run red signals?
I wonder how fast the SIRT expresses get.
The SIRT cars reminded me alot of the M-1's that LIRR has in bad shape, because of the square wheels, which is a big problem with the LIRR. Also T/O's aren't wearing much of a uniform, similar to LIRR engineers. Are SIRT train operator jobs for seniority in the MTA, or are they ex-lirr employees?
I don't know exactly how they pick the jobs. No doubt, the system previously imposed by the B&O is still in use.
SIRT uses approach-lit B&O style color-position signals. Picture PRR signals, only in color. There's no automatic stop system yet, but a signal upgrade is planned. In anycase, headways are long enough to make the issue of rear-end accidents moot. 52 of the 64 R44 currently on the line were delivered new (cars 400-466) and the additional 12 cars (388-399) are the only GE R44 cars that were on the system. All 64 cars are GE.
THe GOH program replaced the controllers, new windows, doors, door motors; side destination signs were removed; trucks, motors, wheels, gears, all the usual stuff was rebuilt. Additionally, FRA required grab irons were removed from all the side doors, and currently, threshold plate heaters are being installed on the doors.
Prior to GOH, all the train windows, with the exception of the cab windows, were plexiglas, which had been rendered opaque from the cleaning chemicals.
-Hank
A little to add to Hank. The GOH was done at Coney Island Shops but that was not the orginal plan. The GOH was to be done by a company (I forget the name) but they couldn't get it right. The rebuilt cars failed load tests miserably and were returned to SIRT and the contract cancled.
SIRT uses B&O signals but on the the tracks are only signaled in one direction. Cross over moves require Dispatcher approval and single track operation are done by track warrants. One Dispatcher in St. George (Tower B) controls the whole line as well switching moves in St. George.
We went end-to-end on SIRT on January 15th. The R44s are in pretty good shape but do have a rough ride on the ballasted track and hence have a different feel to them. The ceilings of #408, #409, #422 and #420 are peeling badly. They did get up to perhaps 45MPH in spots. The NYCT R44s look to be in slightly better condition. I gave them a B minus overall.
Wayne
I rode on a 7X train yesterday that had a very strong citrus scent.
First time riding on a freshly cleaned 7 train.
You probably smelled the citrus based grafitti cleaner.
Soooooooooo...what's the "Flushing Redbird question?"
>Soooooooooo...what's the "Flushing Redbird question?"
Got me lookin'.
I'll bet it's something like, "Wow! How did they get those Redbirds so clean?" "Must be the work of Felix Unger."
What is the difference between the one handle controller and the two handle controller. I heard they were different. One was harder to work with and operators needed more experience. The one handle controller required the motorman to lag or hold the air in the cylinders. Can anyone fill me in?
A single handle controller also works the brake valve in addition to sending power to the motors. The R-44s and R-46s have such controllers. On other New York equipment, the controller and brake valve are separate.
Hello there, train lovers. I was riding the Newark City Trolley Subway today, and was wondering if anyone can tell me if the rail is standard or wide gauge. None of the employees knew. I guess they were hired for their looks. Thanks to all, and Happy New Year!Train Buff Headquarters
Standard for the United States: Four feet, eight and one-half inches.
Is it true that Standard Gauge evolved from the distance between the wheels of the chariots used by the Roman Empire?
Oops, I misspelled "Gauge"
That's the story I always heard also. Its probably strange enough to Strange enough to be true. The particulars are that the Stephensons of England (a father and son tag team of early railroad engineers and manufacturers) were looking for a gage on which to base a standard. In the vicinity of their locomotive plant, was a Roman road that still beared ruts cut into its stone paving by Roman 2 man war chariots. The distance between the wheel ruts was 56-1/2". If you stand 2 men side by side, it actually makes sense.
There was a competing gage in England up until the 1890's- 7 FEET! London had lots of dual gage track. BTW- when the 7' gage was outlawed, they accomplished their gage change of many hundreds of track miles IN ONE DAY.
the eire was also WIDE guage. it too was reguaged in late 1800's i think
Yea, I think is was 6' gage, as I recall the Lackawanna may have also been for a short time.
This is a popular theory, but it has been discredited as an
"urban legend".
In so far as I have been able to determine, the notion of standard gage evolved from the ruts on the Appian Way, which were about 56" apart. Probably the height of some emperor.
"Standard Gage" was actually 4'8". The extra 1/2" was added by Stephenson, who felt the rails should be slightly wider that the wheel spread for decreased friction.
Isambard Kingdom Brunel's magnificent "Broad Gage" was actually 7' 1/4" for the same reason.
BTW, the term "gage" is acceptable, per the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance Association, of which I am a member. "Gauge" and "gage" are interchangeable.
Three feet - mathematically - is about the optimum gage so far as infrastructure costs versus load bearing capability is concerned. Brazil's RFFSA operates some truly impressive coal trains on their narrow gage system. During WWII the Germans experimented with some gages as wide as 4 meters (over 12 feet) but to my knowledge no prototypes were ever produced, only designs. The widest gage I ever heard of was 8 feet (a logging railroad in Oregon) though some marine railways and crane ways are certainly wider. The English probably have about the narrowest, some of the "Little Railways" of Wales and Scotland.
Subject: Specs and Bureaucracies live forever
The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number.
Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.
Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.
Why did "they" use that gauge then? Because the people who built the
tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.
Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.
So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.
And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. Thus, we have the answer to the original question.
The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot.
Specs and Bureaucracies live forever. So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.
Now the twist to the story....
There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and
horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track
is about as wide as two horses' behinds.
So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's Ass!
The Newark City Subway uses standard-gauge rail width, but the PCCs themselves are wider and higher than most other PCCs; they are nine feet wide, 10'3" high, and 46'5" long. These cars originally were purchased by Twin Cities Rapid Transit in Minneapolis/St. Paul, and were sold to Newark in early 1954. Cars numbered 1-20 are ex TCRT 320-339 (built 1946), 21-25 ex 360-364 (1947), and cars 26-30 ex 415-419 (1949).
So, why could these PCCs not fit route 15 in Philadelphia? The 15 goes through no tunnels, and I cannot presently think of a place where there would be a problem. Could anyone?
The same reason the Boeing LRV's couldn't be used by Philly - They are too wide to clear even each other on the streets. The standard 100" width PCC's could.
Besides, SEPTA has a bunch of the GOH PCC cars in dead storage still, and could be reactivated if they could be made reliable, air conditioned and ADA compliant (my guess). SFMuni has done two out of three improvements with their ex-SEPTA cars, so it is doable. Boston supposedly added a/c to their cars. No rocket science needed.
The Newark cars are already tied up in politics as to their retirement - along with everything else that TNJ is replacing on the #7 line.
Perhaps more detailed info will interest you:
In the summer of 1976, SEPTA conducted clearance tests with a vehicle that simulated the clearance envelopes of a SLRV and CLRV. The SLRV tests confirmed that:
1. The SLRV is too wide for streets under 36' in width with double track
2. The SLRV required a mimimum radius of 42' from the track cl; SEPTA had some 35.6' curves
3. Side skirts would nearly foul curbs and subway platforms.
4. There was considerable doubt that an articulation joint could withstand the rigors of daily operation on the tight curves in Phila.
The CLRV was less of a clearance problem, but with 4' devil strips (from gage faces) two CLRVs had only 1.25" of sideswipe clearance. SEPTA's minimum was 2".
Both vehicles substantially fit the Red Arrow Lines #101 and #102.
Other tests were done as well, for future replacement of the P&W 200-cars. A PATCO, NYCTA R-46, and CTA clearance template were tested.
FYI, to the best of my knowledge, there were no air conditioned PCCs in Boston. Though the SLRVs were re-equipped with better roof-mounted units as part of their rebuild. The only air conditioned PCCs I know of were the DC Silver Sightseeer and some PA Transit rebuilds in Pittsburgh. Perhaps there were more? I dont know.
Regards.
I'd like to see Newark expand its trolley system. The underground subway to Penn Station is a huge asset that one route can't possibly capitalize on. And with all the people its lost, Newark's streets can't be that crowded.
Also, if the tunnel could be broken through to the other side, and the #7 could serve Ironbound, it would do much to raise the profile of that neighborhood.
NJ Transit does have some plans for light rail in downtown Newark. The first phase would re-use the underground junction just west of Penn Station that has been abandoned for over fifty years. The line would come to the surface near the Performing Arts Center. The route would then split with separate tracks on Atlantic and Broad Streets (I'm not sure which will be north and south bound) and would terminate at the ex-Lackawanna Broad Street station.
Later there would be a double-track line on Mulberry Street, eventually to reach Newark Airport and Elizabeth. My guess is that this would be configured to allow service to either Broad Street or Penn Station.
I haven't heard anything about Ironbound yet, but service there would certainly be possible.
So, do you think SEPTA could move some double ended Kawasaki LRVs to route 15, and put Newark PCCs on 101 and 102, or would there be a problem with single ended operation on those lines.
Or, would there be community opposition to PCCs in places served by routes 101 and 102.
I'd like to see a new trolley line, but $92000000 seems too excessive for me.
01/21/2000
Put NEWARK PCC's on route #101 & #102 ???
I don't think single end operation would be the only problem, try reguaging the trucks !
Bill Newkirk
I thought that the only non Roman Empire gauge line in Philadelphia was the Market Frankford, but I guess not.
No, the streetcar lines are all Pennsylvania Broad Gauge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And Baltimore has 5' 4.5", Louisville used 5 foot, New Orleans has Philadelphia gauge, Los Angeles, Denver and Portland used 42".
There's a virtual plethera of non-standard gauge street railway systems.
Don't forget Toronto with its 4' 10.875" gauge.
Denver Tramways streetcars did indeed run on 42"-gauge track. The light rail line we now have uses standard gauge.
Doesn't Canada use the logical system? So should that be a gauge of 1.495425 m?
Don't forget the Ft. Worth rebuilds with a/c.
I'd have to ask Danny Cohen or Ken if the a/c thing was seriously considered or not. I did measure one of the minibus units recently to see if it could fit under the fan shroud of the ex-Boston PCC's here in Brooklyn for laughs. It is entirely possible to do it fairly easily, but I have some other stuff to do on them before I start retrofitting things.
I have a copy of that same report from SEPTA. Pretty interesting and useful stuff. There's some pretty darn sharp curves in the street trackage. Have a Peter Witt and Broad St. subway car dynamic envelope diagram too from them.
I don't think New Jersey is going to let any of their PCC's go to anyone, nor the parts, nor the overhead they just changed over.
SEPTA is better off going to CKD Tatra if they want to save money and get cars of very similar performance characteristics/operating perameters to what they had. Not mention being ADA, having a/c, etc at the get go. They better hurry up - Seimens wants to buy CKD, and you know what that mean$$.
The unique Chicago PCCs, with their extra size and extra doors, were designed somewhat off center (more overhang on the right hand side than on the left) so that they could use a 9' wide car on existing tracks and still clear each other on the streets.
-- Ed Sachs
They also had a foot gong and hand controls. The control stand was not ergonomic, to say the least! Really you needed at least three hands to be comfortable, though I'm certain the operators evolved habits through the years that made their lives bearable.
Ive been told that the off-center design precluded re-use of the bodies as el cars.
The hand controls were really extensions of the standard pedal control, which made it fairly easy to convert to pedal when the cars when one man. There's not a whole lot under there, but I bet its real easy when the parts are new, and there is factory support.
There was one prototype el car using a surface car body for the CTA, but was soon discovered to need more structural reinforcement than was economical. It was easier to make a new body.
I had a thought one night, does anyone have comparitive data on both the CTA 6000's and the Myrtle Q's?? I had a thought that if there were 6000's available, and the NYCTA willing, that 6000's might have be able to operate over the downtown section. Soemthing to look into for future posts.
Not all of Chicago's PCCs were converted for one-man operation. All of the prewar Blue Geese were converted, having one center exit door sealed in the process. Some Green Hornets were equipped for either one-man or two-man operation; most remained two-man cars during their brief careers. Those which could be used either way would display "Enter at Front" signs when in one-man operation and "Enter at Rear" when in two-man operation. They were the only PCCs to have rear entrance doors.
Both classes had their bodies mounted 3 inches off center.
All prewar cars were scrapped except #4021, which is now at IRM in Union, IL. 570 Green Hornets were returned to St. Louis Car Co. to serve as organ donors for the 6000-series L cars. One survives intact at IRM, #4391. One, #7078, was destroyed in a collision with a gasoline truck at 63rd and State St. on 5/25/50. And #7205 split a switch at State and Root on 7/17/49, wrapping itself around a lamppost. It was rebuilt with parts from 7078; it's not clear as to whether or not it was sent to SLCC for conversion. The remaining cars of the 600-car fleet were scrapped.
> They were the only PCCs to have rear entrance doors.
In America maybe. The Hague in the Netherlands had rear-door PCC's up till recently. Here's a picture of one recently posted to alt.binaries.pictures.rail
This afternoon, on the destination board of an N train(I forgot which type. Its the one with the ridges on the side and corner cabs), I saw "B-Astoria/Broadway/West End" instead of "N-Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach". Did the B ever run to Astoria?
Did the B ever run to Astoria?
At one time or other almost every train ran to Astoria. Most were able to run away from Astoria.
Well not every train. I don't recall the Franklyn Shuttle ever running to Astoria. Neither do I recall the Orient Express running there.
01/20/2000
Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton's train to the Racoon convention out of Grand Central didn't either.
Bill Newkirk
The last time they had the north side (B/D/Q) tracks on the Manny B closed and the south side track open it did, since the B was diverted up Broadway.
In the pre-Christie days it was called the "T" and it ran between Astoria and Coney Island via Broadway and West End. Those WERE the days!!!!!!!
www.bmt-lines.com
Those were NOT the days. The Broadway line was over-congested and slow moving back then. Service has been much better after 1967, until the Manhattan Bridge closures started messing things up.
Service must have been great in the handful of years from Chrystie Street to the collapse of the Transit Authority (circa 1973?) Many of the B division cars were relatively new, and you had two express services on Broadway and 6th Avenue.
It was too good for Brooklyn, I guess.
While the configuraton of Chrystie St. was beneficial to Brooklyn, the service patterns weren't. The Bway line went from being overused to underused, with only the N and the limited one-direction only rush hour QB line. Had they had 2 daily services on each side of the bridge then this connection would have really been worth the $$$$ spent to build it.
John Hylan must be smiling from wherever he is right now at the situation of the BMT. The fact that three of the four lines running to Coney Island (B/D/F) are IND and the one remaining BMT line has gawdawful service is probably pretty close to what he envisioned 70 years ago.
John Hylan's dream was realized on 7/1/40, when the city took control of the BMT and IRT. It was never his intention to physically destroy all the lines (except some of the els). It was his intention to destroy the private company which ran them. If Hylan was alive today, he'd be as distressed over the situation as any BMT rider is today.
Hylan wanted to recapture the BMT lines for the new city-owned Independent system, and the way the Stillwell terminal is today, I consider it "captured" with the N train service the same purpose as, say, Vichy France did in 1940 (just to go back to the date you mentioned)-- just a pale remnant of the old BMT system that used to go to Coney Island.
I'm sure Hylan wanted a grand Stillwell Ave
terminal, and ideal service on each line. But what
he wanted was a city-owned and run BMT. He didn't want to see it "destroyed".
...except for the Fulton Street el.
True, but he basically targeted that particular el for destructon because it was a major money maker, plus it had symbolic value.
HI I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD SEND ME OF LIST OF YOUR SUBWAY TIMEWAYS AND A MAP TO GET TO THE SUBWAY IT WOULD BE SO KID LOVE SEAFRIZZ
Why do you think Chris has subway "TIMEWAYS?" What is a timeway?
Should I expect any more from an AOSmell user?
Timeway? You're guess is as good as mine.
J Lee: You really got me po'd with your statement, but I don't blame you. You are absolutely right and to have to hear about it makes me real mad. I don't know why the BMT doesn't just go off on its own, but I suspect it wouldn't be possible today. I was never much of an IRT fan because I never like the Low V's; I was a rabid Triplex man, but the BMT Brooklyn routes were scenic and fun to ride. What has happened to the Sea Beach really ticks me off, but I suppose the same could be said for West End and Brighton Beach.
Fred the Brighton and the West End are not that Bad, I rode them both last June to Nathans
#1 Brighton Express Bob: Oh, I know that. I've ridden both of those on my trips to New York, and I have to say the scenery is very good. But when you're a Sea Beach fanatic, you're a Sea Beach fanatic, and I love those mini-tunnels that we zoom by on our way into a new station.
Zip by at 15mph, it ain t the old days Fred?
Sound like a couple of Triplex trains headed on a collision course, doesn't it?:)
NOT for Astoria!!! Before Christie my parents took me to Coney Island frequently in the summer -- I have great memories riding the "T" express on B'way. On weekends the "QB" ran via Bridge so that was the second best. After Christie it became too cumbersome to change trains (especially when you are carrying all the beach stuff) so we stopped going to CI. Fortunately there was a bus service from Astoria to Jones Beach and I never saw CI again -- except on Fan Trips.
BTW Service on the Broadway line never improved even with the MB open -- the N and R didn't earn the names Never and Rarely for nothing!!!
The Brighton Beach 2nd Best, It was and still is the best. What other Southern Division have 2 lines running 90 pct of the time on 95 pct of the track. Both Local and Exp. Not The West End, and not the Sea Beach. Yes The Brighton thats why it was Number 1
I didn't mean to put down the Brighton line... From an Astoria service point of view the "T" was better than the QT/QB combo only because it ran express on B'way. Otherwise you're right -- Brighton express is the best route to CI. Astoria service became absolutely horrible when the "RR" was dumped on us after Christie. Ironically I disliked the QT because it ran via Tunnel but after Christie I wished Astoria had kept it instead of the RR.
To tell you the truth, today the fastest way from 34th St/Herald Square to Coney Island is the B Now, by 6 Minutes over the D, because of the Brooklyn Express route, If you make a good connection between the D and Q either at Kings Hwy of Sheapshead Bay, it is a tie(Connection meaning both trains are at the station with the doors opening or opening.
if the n train would run express in brooklyn and manhattan then it would beat out the b to 34th street herald sq. i timed it once in 1990 when the n train was using using the mann b. so sea beach does rule.
That's because the N wasn't running on the congested north side tracks. The B, D and Q lines moved much slower than the N did during that brief period of time when both sides were being used. Should the service become more balanced (Q on the south side, etc), then the trip to 34th St would probably take the same amount of time via the B or N.
that is true. but i still think the n train is the best.
Fred that was 50 years ago, in your dreams and memories
That ain't Fred!
Hey sea beach express---would you please tell my friend Bob that there are two of us, and he's a tad confused?
I AIN T COFUSED NO MORE
Hey buddy, it's CONFUSED. Thanks for the blurb on the West End Triplex. I never knew the WE used a triplex in the 50's. You see, Democrats do have some use after all.
Bob shouldn't be confused. Its easy to tell 'em apart. S.B. Fred calls it the "4" while S.B. Express calls it the "N".
I M NOT CONFUSED, AM I??? Where is my lithium???
Hey Sarge, Brighton Beach Bob now gets it. But heck, I don't care, its great to have a bunch of Sea Beach nuts on this website. Let's get a few more.
Now you're with it. Stick with me kid and we'll put those West Enders and Brighton Beachers in line.
Come pff it Brighton Beach Bob. It takes two BB's to equal one Sea Beach. That makes it #1? Forget it!!. Besides, they never wrote a book about the Brighton Beach, did they? They did about the Sea Beach. It's called "The Sea Beach Express". It is out of print, unfortunately, but I hope to scrounge a copy. But don't feel too bad, being No. 2 is ok, but the Sea Beach rules.
The Brighton line was cosidered the most important of all the Southern Division lines, because of all the people who used it. After the Coney Island express specials were terminated on the Sea Beach line, it's luster was removed. I like the Sea Beach, but the Brighton line is, and will always be i'm afraid, more important.
Yeh Fred, and that was not even from Me
Well, what can I say. There are just more confused people than I thought.
BONNNNNNG!!!!!!
ROUND 2!!!!!
Come off it Brighton Beach Bob. It takes two BB's to equal one Sea Beach. That makes it #1? Forget it!!. Besides, they never wrote a book about the Brighton Beach, did they? They did about the Sea Beach. It's called "The Sea Beach Express". It is out of print, unfortunately, but I hope to scrounge a copy. But don't feel too bad, being No. 2 is ok, but the Sea Beach rules.
From November 1985 through December 1988, Manhattan Bridge's northside tracks, the ones leading into Chrystie Street, were closed for repair. During that time, the 'B','D' and 'Q' ran over the currently closed southside tracks up Broadway as an EXPRESS. The 'D' ended at 57th/7th all times; the 'Q' when it ran during the week did the same. The 'B' ended at 57th on weekends, continued to Queensboro Plaza midday weekdays and continued to Astoria rush hours.
Interestingly, there were TWO sets of 'B' and 'D' trains during this time. The 'B' and 'D' from Brooklyn carried yellow (Broadway) designations, usually on R-32s, 42s and Slants. The Bronx 'D' train ran all times from 34th/6th to 205th with orange (6th Avenue) designations, usually on R-42s. The Upper Manhattan 'B' train ran rush hours only from 34th/6th to 168th with orange designations. For the life of me, I can't remember what equipment was used.
Grand Street was served by a shuttle made of up of R-27s running local between 57th/6th and Grand, at all times if I remember.
There'd always be mass confusion at the Herald Square complex with people trying to differentiate one 'B' or 'D' train from another.
Actually it was April 1986 to December 1988. The B went to Astoria rush hours, and Queensboro Plaza other times. After the N/R terminal switch in May 1987, the B terminated at 57th/7th on weekends.
(1986 to 1988 service).
With the 63rd Street tunnel open, and given the crossover to the BMT tracks from that tunnel, service could be much different this time around.
The Queens Express F could use the 63rd St tunnel, switch to the Broadway express, and head for the Brighton, replacing the D and Q (18 Fs run in Queens at rush hour, so you'd just put 18 Fs on the Brighton instead of 9 D and 9 Q). So you'd get an F express after all -- on the Brighton Line.
The West End Line (lets call it the T) has seven trains per hour. It could be the second Queens Boulevard through local, and also use the 63rd St tunnel through to the Broadway Express.
The D from the Bronx could switch over to the local track and run on the Culver. You'd lose a couple of trains per hour. Perhaps they could extend the G, run a couple of extra Ds, and two fewer Bs on the Concourse line. The B could terminate at 34th Street, as before.
The N and R would take the 60th Street tunnel, as now.
YEAH! We need this kind of planning in management!
Yeh Right, and confuse the whole city. I think during the Manny Bridge north closing. The B will run in rush Hours Only from Grand St to Bedford Pk Blvd, The D all the time From Grand St to 205th. The Q will run Mon-Fri Brighton Beach via Bridge and 63rd Tunnel to Queens Bridge. Other times local in Bklyn, via Bridge, Express on Bdwy to Queensbridge. The M will switch back to the Brighton Line Run Mon-Fri From Coney Island(When M is not running) Q will go to Coney Island. The T will be back, as a Express from Coney Island to Queens Bridge. The N and R will remain the same.
I don't think the cars have a T Train letter code on them. Does any one know all of the letter codes on trains?
Well there is H K others
There IS a T. There is also a V and a W (and H K others you so insist on using).
(Yeah right, confuse the whole city)
One thing you need to take into account is the shortage of cars.
Today the trains run through, and serve lines on both sides of Manhattan.
If you are going to have trains on 6th Avenue express running all the way south through Manhattan, and trains on the BMT running all the way north to 57th, you'll have an overlap. That means you'll need more cars to have the same number of trains running into Manhattan from the two directions.
We don't have the cars. The purpose of my original suggestion in this thread was to figure out a way to have more trains run through.
Why do you need more cars The D will have less trains since it will be shorter, to B will also be shorter and half the cars will go to the T. The Q will be the same The M will need a couple more trains which can come out of the Coney Island D equipment. There are also less G it will just take some moving around, plus the new trains will be in place,
After talking with the RCI today on my Lunch break I found out some Information. 1. The No.7 Line as I said will not give up the Redbirds. I was told a year age the No.7 would get the R62A'S but that is now false. The No.6 Line will lose the Redbirds for the Nice R142'S. The RCI claims the No.6 within 2 Years will be all R142'S but I will believe that when I see it. Like everything else this is subject to Change. So it looks like the Daily News was right.
Does that mean that the Flushing Redbirds currently assigned to the #6 will go back to the #7?
At this time I'm not sure but that is a good idea.
Damn. I better tell my friend at Branford to give up hope for getting a single unit, at least for now.
Redbirds to stay on the 7, eh? This makes me wonder about #6 car assignments. If the 6 receives all R142s, what are you going to do with the R62As currently assigned to the line?
-Stef
That is a good Quesion. My own opinion is they will have to keep some of the R62A'S. I guess its up to the powers above to decide. I rather stay with the R62A's if I had to pick from the R62 or R142. If they do have a all R142 Fleet where will the R62A'S go?
I will let you know when I get more Info.
If the redbirds are indeed to stay on the 7, it would make some sense for the long term to amass the best of the fleet of married pairs there without regard to class. This would probably be mostly R-33s from the main lines, since the R-36WFs have some major rust issues, and main line R-36s are pretty rare. The alternative to the R-33WFs would be R-62A singles, which are reported to be mu compatible, though a single stainless car in a train of red cars would look odd! Of course, a little bondo and some paint on the existing fleet ...
From what I've heard, those 62A's will go to replace the redbirds on the 4, and also to make up 10 car trains on the 3. I don't how they are resolving the yard space problems for this.
That would be cool. Those are 2 out of my 3 home lines..... I guess the 3 and 4 will have extra trains and hopefully more frequent service, especially the 3.....
3TM
There are not enough new R142's for the 2, 5, 6 AND 7 line. So if the R142 is taking over the #6 line completely, then they cannot completely take over the #7. If they're going to replace the Redbirds on the #7, then the #6 will probably keep all it's R62's.
But that's AWFUL. The R-33 singles must be scrapped ASAP, hopefully if the R-142s are running by then, they will not see the light of another summer.
My guess is one more summer for those rolling ovens. Unless the permanently go to 10 car trains untill all the R142's are delivered. I don't really see the need for that 11th car with the headways that the 7 line now has.
i was told at TIMES SQUARE last november THE REDBIRDS will run last on THE # 7 flushing line !!!
transit workers employees etc told me this !!
The transit workers are probably wrong. The TA executives and managers are more likely to know.
Just don't ride in the single car. No air conditioning is not the end of the world.
No, but it reflects on how the TA thinks of the Flushing line to it's riders. Most people who don't understand why the TA has to use these cars there might take those cars running on the #7 as a sign of disrespect. Since the 7 carries a LOT of immigrants, racial aspects also come into play.
Let's not go off on a tangent here and start bringing racism into this. Many lines in the system carry "a lot" of immigrants. At the time the cars that became the Redbirds were being retrofitted with air conditioning equipment (1977-82, after tests 1971-75), the R-33s were not retrofitted because, as single units, they didn't have room for the equipment that was available at the time. In the intervening years, the cars became too old for retrofitting to be cost-effective.
David
I agree. However, most #7 riders don't understand that. All they see is that the #7 is the only line with non-A/C'd cars, and some might take that as a sign of racism, as other more affluent lines (the 1 and 6) have a 100% A/C'd fleet
When the single R-33s are removed for the summer, the #7 is fully air-conditioned just like all the other lines, and the trains are the same length as other IRT mainline trains (in fact, one car longer than #3 trains, which are nine cars long).
David
Removing the R33S cars during the summer is a relatively new thing. I remember them in service during some of our most recent heatwaves.
That is bloody murder to some....The MTA is opening themselves to trouble if anyone dies or is rendered seriously ill (ie heat stroke) in that R33S car as a result of this.
I surely will not trust my grandparents to ride on the #7 in the summer if the R33S is still in its consist.
Sorry for ranting here...
Redbirds on the7 have air conditioning. they aren't rusty like the ones on the 2&5. where is this coming from that the Redbird 7's is a sauna?
The un-airconditioned R33 singles that are on each 11-car train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think anyone misses the A/C or minds the R-33 singles this week!!! (Except of course Eugenius Royal Island Post Note Human Deli Best)
Hey! You didn't include Defy Reason!
How many other personalities are you going to adopt? Humans: The Deli Best, sounds like a good way of describing yourself as a tasty treat....
-Stef
Yes of course, for cannibals. And I only adopt one personality... at one time.
Sorry, I forgot!!!
KEEP YOUR LIBERAL COMMENTS OFF THIS SITE!
Me liberal? LOL. I'm a registered Republican. And
I don't think that having non AC'd cars on the 7 is
a sign of racism. I'm just saying that others
might see it as being racist, especially the
ones who don't understand why the 7 has to use those cars.
Why DOES the 7 have to use the redbirds?
They don't. They're just assigned to that line.
Thanks. I know the 7 is the only line with an entire fleet of the same typ of car; I was just curious if there was any reason for this other that to keep the fleet together.
Except for moving a few Low Vs over to the 7 for the 1939-40 World's Fair, the Flushing Line has always received brand new cars for operations -- The Steinways, Worlds Fair Low Vs, the R-12/14/15s and then the R-33WF/R-36WFs for the 1964 World's Fair. All the current cars arrived at the same time, and have always been serviced out of the Corona yard, or CI when they really need a major workover. Whether or not they go at the same time remains to be seen.
01.22.2000
I don't think that the R-42's will see service on the #7 line. The East 180th St shops were totally rebuilt for the 142's in mind. It would make sense that the #2 , #5 and maybe the #6 will see service of all the R-142's.
All equipment on the #7 is service at Coney Island. Coney Island is not set up for roof removal of air conditioning units and other specialty work that the R-142's call for.
Bill Newkirk
You call having the Flushng line as one of the best maintained a sign of disrespect? PLEASE....
SCRAP THE RUSTBUCKETS ALREADY...
What the hell are you talking about?
How often have you ridden the other IRT lines? It just so happens that the #7 line has a very impressive MDBF rate. Don't blame the cars for things like passenger vandalism, sick passengers and unnecessary delays caused by door holding by passengers.
I heard that the 7 got R62s, some from the 6, some from the 3 and the 3 got some Pelham cars. R142s on the 2 and 5, the 6 will get the least of the new cars. No matter which cars go where, the redbirds and their railfan windows will be missed by all true railfans.
What's the reason for not at least putting a double window (one through the full width cab, and one to the outside) up front, like here in Chicago? Wouldn't be hard to do, and although it's not as good as a true railfan window, it's much better than nothing.
The No.7 doesn't have any R62A'S. The Plan I heard and reported before was the No.7 was suppose to get them 1/15/00 its now 1/20/00 so I asked around and the RCI and he told me they will NOT RUN R62A'S on the Flushing Line. Meaning they will keep those redbirds. You are right about the Pelham car on the Lenox Line. I don't know why they have cars 1886-1890 which are linked. So will have to see if the Pelham R36'S go back.
They can't do it because there aren't enough cars to satisfy requirements without keeping those unmarried freaks in service.
When I posted the preceding message (that was supposed to be -9), I felt bad about calling the R-33 singles freaks. I actually felt that I would hurt their feelings.
Perhaps this kind of callous indifference to members of Trainkind, and especially the species Treno Rubavitus Agamus is what has caused me to be condemned to untimely
DOOM
HA! For all you know the singles might outlast most living people. Then what are you going to do? You can't be damning them from the grave....
As an act of contrition for calling them unmarried freaks, they shall come back and haunt you. You shall spend your days in an 11 Car SINGLE train with no AC and all blower fans.... You'll be screaming bloody murder at the end of the day. No where to run, no where to hide, perhaps you'll value your singles a little more.
-Stef
It doesn't matter, I'm only 4 messages from death. The more I post, the closer I am to my demise. I still can't stop posting!
I'll be praying for you my friend. Hopefully, you won't spend your days in hell sweating it out in an R33 single!
If that's the case, you may come back reincarnated as a POST IT and spend your days stuck to a wall (get it, you feel sticky)!!!! HA! I'm enjoying this every bit!!!
-Stef
I'm becoming posessed with heypaul's spirit.
-Stef
Hey Stef, there's a rumor heypaul's spirit will make an appearance at tomorrow eve's NYD ERA meeting. Mine too. Hope to see lots of SubTalkers there. If you're not a member, join up!
Friday, January 21
6:15 doors open
7:15 program begins
College of Insurance Building
101 Murray Street
NYC
Take a 2 'bird (while they last!) to Chambers Street.
I hope to meet those attending as I too will be attending. Stop and say hi if you must. I'm a rather tall gentleman, so you'll know who I am... What's a good way to distinguish me from the rest? I'll wear a black Nike hat for show.
-Stef
As reported by Todd Glickman here and during all his broadcasts today, I will be attending tomorrow night's ERA meeting. I will be wearing my Froggy the Gremlin Button, and I will have a whole bundle of blank SubTalk message forms so that I can communicate with people in writing. I also hope to have a bunch of cassettes of the R9 sounds that I recorded years ago. They are yours for the asking, just remember to say the secret words NIAGARA FALLS.
AHHH! NIAGRA FALLS.....SLOWLY I TURN....
heypaul, now look what you've done!
Oh NO!!!! He's coming down with HOWARD'S DIZEEEEZE!!
Heypaul how do you spell chrysanthemumumumumumumumumumumummmmmmm?????
Wayne (in the Sweet Pie and Pie) :o>>>>
...step by step...inch by inch...milmeter by milimeter...micron by micron...
Sorry.
-Hank
01/21/2000
At least he didn't mention the Susquenhanna Hat Company !
Bill Newkirk
Of course I know where Flugle Street is. I was born and raised on Flugle Street.
Alan Glick
Or is it spelled, "Floogle"
Alan Glick
How about Bagel Street?
WHAT APOLOGIES ??? ( now get mad !!!! ) I LOVE RAILFAN WINDOWS !! WHAT APOLOGIES??
HEY STUPID!!! I was apologizing for comments against the R-33 single.
You know, I'm surprised someone like you is even literate.
hey stupid ??/ speak for yourself ?? next time before you ""a post it note " look at your STUPID self
in a mirror..... then repeat this over and over again ..... I ( a post it note ) are the HEY-STUPID!!!
please go get a life guy go ride a RAILFAN WINDOW ( smile ) ................ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......... ***
Sorry for launching a so-called personal attack on an inanimate object, but these cars are bad bad bad! No A/C at all! If they did not provide a toasty ride in fifteen degree weather, I would personally shout BLOODY MURDER!!!!!!
I am only 50% happy with this situation....Perhaps a smorgasbord is in order here for the #7??? MU the redbirds with one Pelham linked R62A... 3 pairs of Redbirds + one 5 car set of R62A's = 11 cars....
At least the #7 still keeps its "cars of heritage" of almost 4 decades....
But....THE DAMNED R33S must not survive...THEY MUST BE SCRAPPED!!!!
Same goes for the R32GE's...Those forty-nine cars are a total DISGRACE for those hot summers!!!! (Remember that #9306 is in The Museum)
Perhaps those R33S haters of us would really have wished that the vandals of the #7 be punished to make scrapping of the R33S easier for us by totally bashing those cars until they are parts-only cars. (evil grin)
You're hurting those cars feelings! So they're not as evolved as your favorite cars, and they didn't get the right corrective surgery, but bashing those cars is climatist. It's also anti-hotcarist.
There were 40 single R-33s built. #9306 is indeed at the Transit Museum in its original colors.
are u serious?1 it's too soon!
It's been there for two decades now, and could end up as the only one of the R-26/29/33/36 cars in the museum fleet, depending on what kind of mood the MTA is in when the final Redbirds retire. Look what happened to the R-10s.
There is a green R10 in the CI "graveyard" near Ave. X. There is also an operational school car R10 in the Pitkin Yard. So I think there will be a couple of examples of this rather popular car that will last through the coming years.
I certainly hope they keep/restore at least 1 R36 WF car. Its looks makes it almost a different car than the mainline redbirds.
Yeah, and restore the doors with the larger window!
The WF R-36s still have their original doors. It's easy to tell; their windows line up with the picture windows on the car sides. Same thing with the R-32s and R-38s. The mainline Redbirds also have their original side doors. The R-40s and R-42s received new side doors and storm doors, both of which have smaller windows.
The R-32s and R-38s have new doors, it's just that their picture windows are standard, and the R-40 and 42 aren't and they didn't get special doors for those.
Then the question would have to be: why didn't the R-40s and R-42s simply keep their original doors?
I assume that a new door mechanism would be more reliable. And I assume that they didn't want to bother spending money to get different doors for different cars.
I think a few of the R-36WFs did get new doors, because I remember the windows on them were higher, like on the mainline R-33s/36s.
Not for the R-33. For them, the time has come.
For the R-32 they should sue GE and pay for a fix.
01/27/2000
"49 R-32GE"
You must mean the 10 R-32's overhauled by GE that have the air conditioners in which parts are unavailable.
Don't be so hateful of those R-33 singles, after retirement they may come back as rider cars !!
Bill Newkirk
I never said there were forty-nine!
And for become work riders (or motors), those aren't air conditioned so it's an improvement. If a larger number of cars didn't have A/C, it wouldn't bother me as much because it wouldn't be a little roadblock to full fleet ACing.
Gawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwddddddddddddddddddddd, whud an idiyot! You're gettin' me might freakin' pissed here BOY!
With respect to what will be assigned where: I prefer to treat any discussion on such matters (even in the press) to be premature speculation. Things can (and probably will) change multiple times. It always boils down to "I heard from Person A that Thing B will happen," with twenty people expressing thirty opinions. Maybe we could just wait with baited breath until an absolutely final decision is made.
With respect to the "immigrants" comment contained in an earlier post: I question the necessity of raising that as issue, as it opens a whole can of worms. The entire city is populated with immigrants; which ones should get new cars and which ones should be denied new cars?
While "new" is initially impressive, the long-term question is how RELIABLE the OVERALL service will be. As long as I can catch my train at its scheduled time, sit (or at least have some breathing room), and arrive at my destination at the scheduled time, on equipment that is reasonably well-maintained, I will be happy.
Isn't much of this newsgroup specualtion anway?
Speculation based on what Pelham Bay Dave said he was told was going to happen to the No. 6 and No. 7 lines.
I guess that makes it third-hand information when it was posted to the message board, then we just take in from there.
I knew it! But what I would like to know is why R62As are not going to the 7. I can understand why R142s are not initially being assigned there, but why are the Redbirds staying there? They are reliable cars, but the rusty single no-A/C R33s have to go. Riders on the 7 line should not have to endure another summer on them. I see no reason why R62/62As can not operate on the 7 and why they were not assigned there in the first place. The 7 train operated and still operates with 11 cars. Wouldn't it have made sense to operate the originally single R62/62As on a line with an odd number of cars? Then again, this is the MTA that we're talking about.
The R-62s went to the mainline because 15 years ago the No. 7 still had the overall newest fleet on the IRT, even if it was 20 years ago. Right now, the 7 still has one of the best MBDFs in the system -- not as good as the R-62s or R-68s, but still good enough apparently for the MTA to decide the fleet should stay together for at least a little while longer.
It wouldn't surprise me if the last 350 of the R-142s do end up on the Flushing Line, after they have time to adjust the Corona and Coney Island yards to handle them.
what if they do take them off the 7 line, it would be too soon. I say get the 350 R 142's and keep have of the redBird fleet that is in good condition
As a Flushing line rider I spoken with many of my friends, neighbors, and co-workers that ride this line. The #7 line needs new cars.
The redbirds are nice however, the AC in the summer is terrible!
Some of the cars don't have AC,and if it is operating you don't feel
it. Some cars are showing signs of rust (It breaks my heart to see these once beautiful WF cars going to pot, and I hate that red color scheme, paint them back to their WF colors). Yes we all heard the fact or fiction that the Flusing Line will get R62s. I hope we get some new cars quick before the summer gets here. My personal opinion which may not sit well with some people on this site MTA should place a few of the R142's on this line & keep some of the redbirds.
MTA should, if their smart should run some test R142's on this line to see if they can handle it. If they can't perform on the other lines send them back and get a refund (laugh). Enough said.
going back in history:
the 7 got new cars for the 1939-40 World's Fair and then again for the 1964-65 World's Fair. It seems that maybe they wait wait for the R144 (or whateverr R number it will be ) and use them for the 7 fleet.
Or maybe the next World's Fair whenever that may ever be
The next World's Fair probably will be someplace else.
Today as I was coming home from work (to Jersey), on the GW Bridge, when my bus crossed to the Jersey side, there were two huge trucks placed at my bus stop. On the trucks were two R142A subway cars, Car #7209 and #7210. #7210 was just a shell and #7209 was fully assembled. I got pictures and they will be posted on TransiTALK on the January 28th Update.
Until then, God Bless
Trevor Logan
What? They're not R142As from Kawasaki. They're R142s from Bombardier! What's going on here? The option order is being done as we speak???
-Stef
The car numbers Trevor mentioned are R-142As, by Kawasaki, not R-142s, by Bombardier.
David
Ok. What you are saying is that 6981-7210 are Kawasaki's option order then, while the Bombardier Unit Option Order is 7611-7760. I'd like some clarification.
-Stef
No, I'm saying that Kawasaki's order starts with 7201.
David
I wasn't clear on that. Thanks for the clarification.
-Stef
Thursday night (1/20/2000) the TV program "Treasures In Your Home" will feature a segment on Subway Memorabilia.
They did not indicate where the collection is. From the on item they showed it may be the Exhibit at the TM store @ GCT or it may be someone's private collection.
"Treasures In Your Home" is on at 7:30 PM on UHF Channel 31 (PAX)
Check your listings for the cable equivilent.
Did any of you guys see the R142's in the 180 st yard house about an hour ago I saw two full trains and one with the 4 line display on it! Im going to try to get a pic of them tonite or on friday!
4 train??? That's pretty weird. Usually the 180th Street yard is home of the 2 and 5 trains, not the four. I wonder when they'll test the trains in revenue service???
Clark
Not until at least May.
01/19/2000
I was at the Transit Museum gift shop at grand Central on Saturday when I inquired about anything new regarding collectible Metrocards. Other than the usual (last of the Millennials),they still had the NY Yankees $6.00 Metrocard, "Home & away simply the best".
Now these cards aren't new but the gift shop still had them unsold since people don't prefer the $6.00 denomination. The card if you don't remember has the N-Y logo in pinstripes on left and the "New York" on gray background on the right depicting the two different uniforms.
The expiration date is 6/30/00 on the one I bought. This would make a collectible for someone who would preserve it in a still sealed cellophane wrapper. Not sure if the other gift shop locations have them.
Bill Newkirk
The time is near when the underground riders will be freed up from riding those god awful rusting relics of a period long gone. In with the new fuel efficent wonders of the 21th century R142!!!!!!!!!!!
good bye redbirds and so longgggggggggggggg
First the redbirds then the ellimination of the obsolete position of MOTOR MAN. The TA is finally coming to their sense like the rest of coorporate america i that they finally see the advantages of the information revolution. A investment in technology brings great returns. The 142's will save $50 million a year in electricity costs alone. Once Automatic train control and MVM's are deployed throughout the system the cost per ride will drop dramatically.
Um, what you talking about? You know some peoples buttons would get pushed by this post...Like Me? Hmmmmmmmmmm. ???????? How 'bout if I put you into the scrapline? Don't bother esponding, I won't to Idiots like you...
People always want a reaction. Don't bother responding to these people!!!
The Redbirds have served their purpose after 40 years on the road. I suppose it's time to say goodbye, but I say no way! If I could, I'd give them wings to fly out of the yards and away from the scrap line. If you tell me, I think of the scrap line as the slaughter house which undoubtedly some here would enjoy. A piece of history is a terrible thing to waste.
-Stef
HERE IS HOW YOU DO IT !!!! replace the redbirds whit an exact NEW COPY OF THE SAME THING !!!
only brand spanking dammed shiny and NEW !!! how about THAT subtalk folks ????
Been there Done That, they tried that with the R68's. When the 44/46's didn't work out they went BACK TO BASICS and created the 68 Heavy Hippo (Sorry Steve).
Well, they also created the R-62 with the back to basics design, which has been pretty reliable after they got the early bugs out. We can only hope that they've gotten the bugs out of `high-tech' trains between the time the R-44s/R-46s showed up and now when the R-142s are arriving.
Willie I have been hoping that they build replicas of cars like the R10s, BMT Standards, D-Type Triplexes and such. They built replicas of period trolley cars for New Orleans (I forgot the manufacturer - they have a funny name), why not some vintage reproductions for New York?
Wayne
The New Orleans cars (not replicas, just ADA compliant 1920-ish streetcars. Yeah, I know they have PCC Trucks /controls.) were built by the RTA Carrolton Shops. Know any other authorities that build their own equipment?
.
hmm complete automation so that will end all the trouble and frustation in a simple subway ride... Its the moron who crams their briefcase or jams a foot in the door of a crowded train... whats with everyone standing in the doorway of a subway car when there's room in the center of the car? better yet the I mean I know the platforms are crowded but to STAND in front of the folks stepping off the train doesn't this just slow the process up abit?
its going to take a LONG LONG TIME and PLENTY of money to automate this system and yet savings won't occur for maybe a generation so I wouldn't wait for the $1.50 fare to roll back any time soon better yet I have a bridge to sell you if you believe otherwise!
Or How about people who hold doors while its closing? Ultimate Solution is to Fix really sharp long razors to the doors, see how the "Door Holders" like that, when all 10 of their fingers are laying on the track.
that happened in atlanta a woman was DRAGGED 180 feet one person operation !!! DANGEROUS !!
Yeah, But the fool ass shouldn't be holding onto the doors in the firstplace.
EXCUSE ME ??? the fool should not be holding on to the door handles in the first place while this
DANGEROUS ONE PERSON ONE OPERATOR ONE TRAIN DANGEROUS OPERATION.....
excapes all blame ??? what about that innocent woman recently dragged 180 feet in ATLANTA ??
tell us how the motorman mortorwoman can see SAFELY ALL THE WAY DOWN THE TRAIN ??
and then "" BLIND "' motor-operator then takes off with someones BODY PARTS !!!!
Hello all,
Sunday, March 19 is the possible date. Many on here have an interest in Philadelphia. So lets go there. We can catch the 8:32? NJT train. ($24.00 Round trip) From there YOU decide. Tell me what interests you have. Those not sure, here is a list:
Subway:
Market-Frankford line, Broad street subway
Interurban:
Norristown line
Trolley:
Subway-Surface lines (5 Different), 2 Suburban lines
Trackless trolley:
2 in South Philly, 3 in the North
And there is also PATCO and SEPTA Regional rail.
*NOTE*
If there are enough interested, I can arrange a PCC trip.
Please get back to me and lets have a great day in Philadelphia.
E-mail me at: Mark618@webtv.net
This is all subject to change. Suggestions are more than welcome.
I'm interested, and I'm sure my fiancee would enjoy it as well.
-Hank
01/20/2000
Maybe a trip can be held a month or two later strictly for the reason that there'll be more daylight hence a longer day for shooting, riding etc.
Any takers on this?
Bill Newkirk
That makes sense. Do you have a date in mind?
I would be intrested in the trip as well since I barely know anyting about Transit in PA.
I would also say wait a week or two until April. Don't the clocks change then too?? (always forget when they change).
Clocks change the first weekend in April. The 9th or the 16th would be good, as first Seder is Wednesday the 19th - Easter is the 23rd so that would be a bad weekend for everyone, and the next weekend is already taken. I'll vote for either the 9th or 16th as I don't have any hard and fast commitment for either weekend (now that I've said that, my wife will tell me otherwise...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The best thing to do is to have it on a Monday, declare a National Railfan Holiday. Only railfans will be allowed to leave work and school to attend railfan functions.
Yeah, Publick Skools and Universities? or Just those damned Publick Skools? I wanna go too, But, I don't think I can make it on a weekday.
Everything. But everybody has to attend at least one railfan related event and get a note. Organizers of events can get official notes they can give to participants by registering with the NORRAF (National Office of Railfan Related Activities and Functions). Those employers who refuse to accept the notes given by employees taking the day off and docking pay must be reported to the FAROIB (Federal Anti-Railfan Offenses Bureau) so they can be fined.
-4 again
Does this mean you got a stay of execution? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now, my clock got jammed.
The Grim Reaper gave it a nice bang with his scythe, so it's back to normal.
For my own selfish reasons, I would not like March 19. Since I have vacation, I will probably be somewhere else then. And yes, Sunday would probably be the worst day. It is the only day in which the Broad Street express does not run, a ride that I enjoy very much, and you probably would enjoy too. Not to mention headways :(
Ditto. I'll be celebrating my birthday out in Nevada with my grandchildren (Alex will be 3 the next day).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The express only runs weekdays. It doesn't run on Saturday to my knowledge.
BTW: I waited almost an hour for the 65 bus on a Sunday this past summer. DO NOT DO THIS TRIP ON A WEEKEND UNLESS YOU ENJOY WAITING FOR TRAINS!!!
My bad. I just looked at SEPTA's web site and remembered that there is Ridge Spur Service on Saturday operating express (it used to be local on weekends). It just didn't occur to me.
I'd prefer it a month or two later for "selfish" regions - I'm having knee surgery on 3/15 so I won't be able to run around for a while.
--Mark
01/20/2000
OK MARK W.!, the SubTalkers have spoken, what date would you prefer?
You did well on the PG Shuttle tours, how about Philly?
BTW. This would be great for me since I have 2 SEPTA subway tokens collecting dust. Good time to cash them in!
Bill Newkirk
Just 2 Bill? I've still got 3 left from 1997, when I went to the Vet for a Mets-Phillies double header.
-Hank
when I went to the Vet for a Mets-Phillies double header.
It's one thing that you got injured during the games, but why didn't you go to the regular doctor?
You joking right?:):) The Vet is short for Veterans Stadium if you did not know.........
3TM
Hey Mark:
Sorry you are having knee surgery. I had a torn medial meniucus
(spelling??) and a arthroscope did the job like a breeze. I walked with it about a year before and finally did something about it after
it really hurt after I ran down the slope from Springfield Mall to catch the Media trolley.
Anyhow, let me know when you come to Philly and I'll meet you guys.
Anything after March 27th will be good for me.
Regards,
Chuck Greene
Hi Chuck. I have the same problem - torn meniscus. I'm not in a great deal of pain, but I have good days and bad days, and if you let it go too long it could become arthritis. I don't want that!
--Mark
Wow, I never heard of it becoming arthritis. Glad I didn't wait any longer to have it done. I actually walked on it right after the operation and then went for rehab to get my leg back in shape. I'm good as new! No pains, no problems. Maybe I'll see you if you come down for the Philly trip. I'm hoping for April so the weather will be warmer and the afternoons longer.Who do we blame this winter blast on, Todd Glickman?
--Chuck
How about Presidents Day. I think SEPTA runs weekday schedules.
Maybe someone should voulenteer to make a railfan video for Mr. Willie, (on the Market Frankford and PATCO lines) so he will believe that even modern cars can have railfan windows.
I had one, and I've been waiting 6 months for it to come back (I lent it out).
--Mark
In 1998, I did this:
Amtrak from DC
13 to 13th
R2 to Sharon Hill
102 to Clifton-Aldan
R3 to Lansdowne
109 to 69th Street Terminal
100 to Parkview
100 to 69th Street Terminal
MFL to 11th
R7 to Chestnut Hill East
WALK to Chestnut Hill West
R8 to Market East
BRS to Erie
BSS (LCL) to Fern Rock
BSS (EXP) to City Hall
R6 to Bala
44 to City Avenue and 52nd Street
Took about 8.5 hours including lunch. Hit all RRL lines except the R1 and R5, both subway lines, and all froms of transit (surface, subway-surface, subway, RRL, high speed line, trolley).
The ending point was my aunt's house. You will probably want to end at City Hall if you do what I did or R1 or R5 to Fern Rock and BSS down to City Hall.
I'd be interested in the trip
www.forgotten-ny.com
Philly has a pretty diverse variety of transit facilities (like Boston and San Francisco and unlike NYC, IMHO). Last summer the ERA had their yearly convention in Philly and covered a lot of the system. There's probably not a whole lot of overlap between posters here and those who went on the convention so I wouldn't worry about that.
I think the suburban trolley lines (101 and 102) are worth a ride for their variety of reserved right of way, street running, private right of way, grade crossings, single track sections, etc. The Norristown line is not so interesting (at least not like it was when there was a real variety of rolling stock)-- nice scenery I guess but nothing real interesting.
The subway-surface lines are interesting as well, especially for people who aren't used to seeing street running trolleycars. The 11 or 13 to Darby would be a good ride then perhaps a stop near Elmwood Depot on the 36.
Like Mark said, if a special trip could be arranged that might be worth it (even if it cost some $) due to long headways on the weekends especially on the suburban routes. Long headways add up to a lot of waiting and not much opportunity for photos of passing trains.
-Dave
I'm interested, also think that the Subway-Buff was in initial stages of planning one, so maybe you two can compare notes.
The only problem that several of us SubTalkers would have are Trolley Operator training classes at Shoreline/Branford in March sometime that we're committed to.
From what I see here in other posts you'll have many friends to join you, so proceed with plans that best suits yourself & if most interested can join you, so much the better.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston- go ahead. I withdraw my plans.
Let me know when this happens. Since I live here and I can't make it to NYC for those field trips, I'd love to meet some of you down here.
But be warned, Sundays are probably the most inconvenient days for trips as headways grow to alarming lengths.
Best bet for rides-$5 DayPass for city trips. If you had a TransPass, it would be valid anywhere on all vehicles all weekend, but they are way too expensive($17.25) for one-day use.
SEPTA tix are $10 round trip to/from Trenton.
Also, may I suggest the meeting somewhere at Suburban Station as all subway, trolley and rail lines meet there?
Boy, you're off the group for a couple of days and then come back to find a trip being planned! Count me in - I'm here anyway.
I agree with Sub2K that the DayPass is the way to go. Of course you have to stick to the City Division (only one ride on Regional Rail comes with the DayPass) but this would allow exploration of the subway-surface lines - a possibility is one trip out 36 to Eastwick, back to the portal for 13, catch a 13 to Darby (the schedule gets a little tricky, but it's worth it to ride the old 62 trackage), transfer to 11 at Darby, switch to 108 bus at 65th, 108 to 69th St, El to Margaret-Orthodox, 75 trackless to Wyoming, Subway to Fern Rock, change ends and back to City Hall. An ambitious day!
The 1 day Pass is good anywhere on weekends (I think).
Has anyone bought the video on the market frankford subway using the old heavyweights on a fan trip in the early 90's ?i herd it's a very well done video.
I've got Heavyweights Under Broad Street by Carson Home Video, if that's the one you're thinking of. It's mostly shot from the railfan window so it's kind of unsteady at times, but it's not too bad. The most interesting shot to me was of the one place where we don't normally get - the lower level down by the sports arenas.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not many runbys, But great for sounds
Im game as long as its not on a Tuesday...
The evening commuters will probably think we're a bunh of lunatics...
Hey, I'm off on Spring Break. I would be more than happy to attend. It really sounds like a great idea. Don't forget that you can also ride on the Regional Rail w/in the centre city zone with a regular Day Pass.
I happened to come across a green metrocard that read "Student Metrocard." I was wondering if the MTA still issues these cards or ones like them and how would a student obtain these?
Yes, There are four flavors of MCs in use by students in NYC. They are used on subways & buses, including DOT "privates".
- There are three "green": 1/2 fare; free; & class trip (two rides)
- There is on "orange", free
You probally have one that expired, so the child left it behind, that's how come I have a few of them. NYC-DOT Bureau of Pupil Transportation (I think) issues them, twice a year (I think).
Mr t__:^)
They're issued once per semester and whenever one is reported lost.
A few people have asked about doing another walk. I will only plan another it the demand is there. SO, Who is interested in going? I will do another if we can get at least 20 people
Kind of late in responding, I guess I'll go. Anybody else?, Maybe we can get all of them to bring Flashlights this time.
"DID SOMEBODY SAY POLO GROUNDS???"
I GOT THREE FOLKS INTERESTED HERE!!
I went on #1 and it was great. I had to work during #2. I would go on #3 pending my work schedule which I only get 1.5 weeks ahead of time SO put me down as a 1/2 attendee.
01/20/2000
FLASHLIGHTS HERE!......GETHCHA FLASHLIGHTS!........FLASHLIGHTS HERE!...
Bill Newkirk
Cha Ching...Mr. MagLite and myself would love to join in on this tour, having missed the first two.
There was a small article in Wednesday's Newsday written by Jerry Markon relating to Nassau County's debt.
Tom wants to delay paying $19M to the MTA for LIRR station maintenance and is promissing to restore $9.6M to various social service programs and some of the LI Bus $7M he plans to cut. This is just some more of the same financial hog wash because the "delay" is only four months, which makes the bill due Jan. 2001.
Mr t__:^)
[There was a small article in Wednesday's Newsday written by Jerry Markon relating to Nassau County's debt.
Tom wants to delay paying $19M to the MTA for LIRR station maintenance and is promissing to restore $9.6M to various social service programs and some of the LI Bus $7M he plans to cut. This is just some more of the same financial hog wash because the "delay" is only four months, which makes the bill due Jan. 2001.]
But by January 2001, Tom will probably be a resident of Attica and won't care anymore.
It will be intereting if the rest of the state (ie. NYC) ends up bailing out Nassau County. I hope not. Bankrupcy would not be the worst thing that could happen -- it would allow all those ripoff contracts to be torn up.
But in fairness, Nassau does face a couple of challenges. As a result of suburban expansion, it had (on the spending side) relatively few older homes occupied by poorer people, and relatively few older people to pay Medicaid matching for. On the revenue side, it had lots of new commercial space paying heavy taxes, and big industrial employer to boot.
Now the big industrial employers are gone, and the commercial property owners are demanding property tax reductions for their older (and less valuable) properties. And you've got lots of housing occupied by senior citizens, and some older housing subdivided (illegally) for the working poor.
It's still a rich county. It just can't afford to waste as much as in the past. A bailout by NYC is a way of continuing the waste. Won't help in the long run. Nassau just gets in deeper and deeper.
[It will be intereting if the rest of the state (ie. NYC) ends up bailing out Nassau County. I hope not. Bankrupcy would not be the
worst thing that could happen -- it would allow all those ripoff contracts to be torn up.
But in fairness, Nassau does face a couple of challenges. As a result of suburban expansion, it had (on the spending side) relatively few older homes occupied by poorer people, and relatively few older people to pay Medicaid matching for. On the revenue side, it had lots of new commercial space paying heavy taxes, and big industrial employer to boot.
Now the big industrial employers are gone, and the commercial property owners are demanding property tax reductions for their older (and less valuable) properties. And you've got lots of housing occupied by senior citizens, and some older housing subdivided (illegally) for the working poor.]
Now I'm quite pleased ... after being what seemed like the lone voice in the wilderness advocating municipal bankruptcy for NYC, I see support for the concept, albeit for Nassau County rather than NYC. Both jurisdictions would benefit mightily from bankruptcy even though the reasons would differ. NYC could make huge cuts in health care spending, while Nassau could re-engineer hundreds or even thousands of redundant public employees and slash the grossly excessive pay of those who remain. Both places would emerge stronger and more prosperous. And in the case of Nassau, bankruptcy would get rid of the current county government, which from Gulotta on down is a disgrace.
You may be onto something about the economic reasons that exacerbate Nassau's fiscal woes. After more than two years living on Long Island, I've gotten to know it well enough to sense a difference between Nassau and Suffolk counties. Nassau may be wealthier, but as you noted, it's living off its past glories to some extent. Suffolk has a lot more new construction, both residential and commercial, as well as a real-but-hard-to-define sense of being a place oriented toward the future, not looking back on the past.
New York State would bail out Nassau in a minute. No state can afford to let any municipality declare bankrupcty and default on it's obligations. Any bankruptcy/default would damage NY's ability to market it's municipal bonds and would give other weak municipalities in the state and country the wrong idea. Nassau would have a hard time issuing bonds after such an action. Nassau is now an aging suburb with high taxes. Companies would rather relocate west into NJ than east into Nassau. Rundown Jersey City is doing a better job of attracting financial sector jobs than well-off Nassau county.
(Rundown Jersey City attracting more companies than Nassau)
Jersey City is on the brink of bankrupcy also. It attracted those companies, in part, by saying they didn't have to pay taxes.
[[(Rundown Jersey City attracting more companies than Nassau)]
Jersey City is on the brink of bankrupcy also. It attracted those companies, in part, by saying they didn't have to pay taxes.]
Jersey City's continued economic growth in the face of fiscal woes actually supports my belief that NYC's bankruptcy would be a positive development. Municipal bankruptcy would be a mistake if it made the city less attractive to business. Yet we see in Jersey City that this concern may be overblown. Corporate executive that are considering a particular city for new or expanded facilities are interested in some municipal services and the quality thereof. Public safety's important, as are roads, sanitation and any municipality-supplied utilities; transit's crucial in NYC but of less (maybe close to zero) importance elsewhere. What's important to note is that many municipal services are nearly irrelevant to businesses. The suits in the corner offices, who probably commute from elsewhere, aren't likely to be too concerned about parks, libraries, social services and even schools. And let's not forget that NYC's financial _bete noir_, health care, is bascially meaningless, as the executive and their employees have health insurance. This relative lack of concern for municipal services means that bankruptcy, whether in NYC, Jersey City or Nassau County, is not likely to have much of an impact on business location decisions.
But what about tax increases that might result from municipal bankruptcy? Fears of higher taxes indeed would scare off businesses, but I don't see that as an issue, at least in the cases of NYC and Nassau. That's because both jurisdictions have massive amounts of wasteful spending that are prime targets for a bankruptcy control panel's meat ax - health care in NYC, redundant overpaid employees in Nassau. I'm not so sure about wasteful spending in Jersey City, but obviously the business community isn't worried.
[Jersey City's continued economic growth in the face of fiscal woes actually supports my belief that NYC's bankruptcy would be a positive development. Municipal bankruptcy would be a mistake if it made the city less attractive to business. Yet we see in Jersey City that this concern may be overblown. Corporate executive that are considering a particular city for new or expanded facilities are interested in some municipal services and the quality thereof. Public safety's important, as are roads, sanitation and any municipality-supplied utilities; transit's crucial in NYC but of less (maybe close to zero) importance elsewhere. What's important to note is that many municipal services are nearly irrelevant to businesses. The suits in the corner offices, who probably commute from elsewhere, aren't likely to be too concerned about parks, libraries, social services and even schools. And let's not forget that NYC's financial _bete noir_, health care, is bascially meaningless, as the executive and their employees have health insurance. This relative lack of concern for municipal services means that bankruptcy, whether in NYC, Jersey City or Nassau County, is not likely to have much of an impact on business location decisions.
But what about tax increases that might result from municipal bankruptcy? Fears of higher taxes indeed would scare off businesses, but I don't see that as an issue, at least in the cases of NYC and Nassau. That's because both jurisdictions have massive amounts of wasteful spending that are prime targets for a bankruptcy control panel's meat ax - health care in NYC, redundant overpaid employees in Nassau. I'm not so sure about wasteful spending in Jersey City, but obviously the business community isn't worried.]
But I think you have to consider the negative impact on a community's reputaton that results from bankruptcy. Look at what the fiscal crisis did to New York's reputation a few years back; only in recent years has it again seemed a desireable place to live.
Besides, while a bankruptcy court would have to pare a municipality's expenditures to meet its means, it wouldn't have any reason or power to go all the way, so that wouldn't do anything about the high tax rate that discourages business investment.
I think you also have to consider that while local businessmen may not be directly affect by high tax rates, they have to pay more for employees of a given quality in New York than in other areas, and frequently can't get the middle class employees that they need.
What we really need are mayors and governors who have the courage to take on vested interests, reduce city and state tax rates to the national average, and shift resources to things that make the region competitive. Our governor lacks vision, but we've had such a mayor (and look at the flack he's taken for even hinting that things could be more efficient); I doubt that the next one will be as good.
[re effects of NYC bankruptcy]
[But I think you have to consider the negative impact on a community's reputaton that results from bankruptcy. Look at what the fiscal crisis did to New York's reputation a few years back; only in recent years has it again seemed a desireable place to live.
Besides, while a bankruptcy court would have to pare a municipality's expenditures to meet its means, it wouldn't have any reason or power to go all the way, so that wouldn't do anything about the high tax rate that discourages business investment.
I think you also have to consider that while local businessmen may not be directly affect by high tax rates, they have to pay more for employees of a given quality in New York than in other areas, and frequently can't get the middle class employees that they need.]
Municipal bankruptcy wouldn't be a riskless venture, not that anything is, but the potential benefits far outweigh the dangers. Inadequate budget cuts shouldn't be much of a worry because NYC is (yet again) a special case. Bankruptcy control panel members won't have to agonize through the city's budget line by line, searching out places here and there in which they can make cuts. NYC's budget has a huge fat wallowing target that's almost begging for several swift chops of the meat ax. I refer, of course, to health care spending. A bankruptcy control panel that accountable to no one, wielding dictatorial powers, could simply order massive cuts in health care and leave it up to the bureaucrats to sort out the remains (after which, of course, many of those very same bureaucrats would be re-engineered). Keep in mind that we're not talking about infliction of severe hardship. A one-third cut in the city's health care spending would free up more than ample funds for tax cuts and worthwhile spending (A full Second Avenue subway? Wait a couple years and you'll have one!) while *still* keeping per-captia spending above - possibly well above - the national average. Most of these budget cuts are embarrassingly easy. For instance, the control panel could order an immediate shutdown of eight or nine of the city's 13 municipal hospitals. There would still be a grotesque oversupply of hospital beds compared to any other city in the nation.
As far as the city's image is concerned, I suggest that the much-improved quality of life is more important than any fiscal issues. During the city's near-bankruptcy in the middle 1970s, its real and perceived quality of life was going down the toilet completely apart from the fiscal problems. Subway graffiti was a perfect example of that. I submit that the city's much better current image would weather a bankruptcy filing reasonably intact. Bankruptcy (caused by failed investments) certainly didn't hurt Orange County in Calfornia.
Finally, with respect to labor cost and availability, it's often not realized that NYC's labor costs are actually quite close to the national average, if you exclude union jobs with artificially boosted salaries. IIRC, a recent study showed that average labor costs in NYC were only 17% higher than in Dallas, widely thought to be a "cheap" city. And I have yet to be convinced that employers can't get enough workers, middle class or otherwise. Except for some highly specialized positions, most job openings can be filled without too much trouble.
Labor costs are indeed low in New York. You can often pay less than the minimum wage, then not actually pay it, and collect federal tax withholding and not forward it to the federal government. Can't get away with that elsewhere.
You can't reduce New York's taxes to the national average unless you cut spending far below the national avereage, due to:
1) Debt.
2) Pension's already promised, and guaranteed by the state constitution.
3) Federal financing formulas. Lots of services elsewhere are financed to a greater degree by the FEDs.
And, you'd have to cut spending that wasn't required by a higher level of government. Ie. the police, or the transit system. Medicaid would be the last thing touched.
Finally, you'd have to eliminate or curtail services that not every local government offers:
1) Public water
2) Public sewer
3) A professional (not volunteer) fire department.
4) Garbage pick-up.
Even if we were to eliminate all the ripoffs, our taxes would therefore still be higher, but not as high as today.
[You can't reduce New York's taxes to the national average unless you cut spending far below the national avereage, due to:
1) Debt.
2) Pension's already promised, and guaranteed by the state constitution.
3) Federal financing formulas. Lots of services elsewhere are financed to a greater degree by the FEDs.
And, you'd have to cut spending that wasn't required by a higher level of government. Ie. the police, or the transit system. Medicaid would be the last thing touched.
Finally, you'd have to eliminate or curtail services that not every local government offers:
1) Public water
2) Public sewer
3) A professional (not volunteer) fire department.
4) Garbage pick-up.
Even if we were to eliminate all the ripoffs, our taxes would therefore still be higher, but not as high as today.]
It's fair enough to charge taxes for real services, but it's also clear the City offers a wide range of services that other localities don't offer, such as guaranteed housing for the homeless, muncipal hospitals, public housing, and so on. And it seems to me it would be possible to horse trade some of this stuff, cutting Medicaid spending in return for a state takeover, for example.
[Municipal bankruptcy wouldn't be a riskless venture, not that anything is, but the potential benefits far outweigh the dangers. Inadequate budget cuts shouldn't be much of a worry because NYC is (yet again) a special case. Bankruptcy control panel members won't have to agonize through the city's budget line by line, searching out places here and there in which they can make cuts. NYC's budget has a huge fat wallowing target that's almost begging for several swift chops of the meat ax. I refer, of course, to health care spending. A bankruptcy control panel that accountable to no one, wielding dictatorial powers, could simply order massive cuts in health care and leave it up to the bureaucrats to sort out the remains (after which, of course, many of those very same bureaucrats would be re-engineered). Keep in mind that we're not talking about infliction of severe hardship. A one-third cut in the city's health care spending would free up more than ample funds for tax cuts and worthwhile spending (A full Second Avenue subway? Wait a couple years and you'll have one!) while *still* keeping per-captia spending above - possibly well above - the national average. Most of these budget cuts are embarrassingly easy. For instance, the control panel could order an immediate shutdown of eight or nine of the city's 13 municipal hospitals. There would still be a grotesque oversupply of hospital beds compared to any other city in the nation.]
What makes you think that the control panel would know enough to make those decisions? The emergency fiscal control board didn't.
[As far as the city's image is concerned, I suggest that the much-improved quality of life is more important than any fiscal issues. During the city's near-bankruptcy in the middle 1970s, its real and perceived quality of life was going down the toilet completely apart from the fiscal problems. Subway graffiti was a perfect example of that. I submit that the city's much better current image would weather a bankruptcy filing reasonably intact. Bankruptcy (caused by failed investments) certainly didn't hurt Orange County in Calfornia.]
The Orange County bankruptcy was a one time thing. Quality of life issues were certainly an important factor in the City's decline, but so were exhorbitant taxes; I well remember a time after the imposition of the income tax when even wealthy people were fleeing the City. But Johnny Carson was a factor too--he took a real rise in crime and made it a national issue, until people were convinced that coming to New York meant instant victimization (that despite the fact that the City was something like #20 on the FBI's crime rate list)--and so was the near bankruptcy and bailout, which was equated in the popular mind not with the foolery of Lindsay and Beame but with deeper social ills. (I think the turnaround has to do with Seinfeld and other New York shows, too.)
Orange County is a special animal; its bankruptcy was due to malfeasance (or at least stupidity) rather than underlying conditions.
[Finally, with respect to labor cost and availability, it's often not realized that NYC's labor costs are actually quite close to the national average, if you exclude union jobs with artificially boosted salaries. IIRC, a recent study showed that average labor costs in NYC were only 17% higher than in Dallas, widely thought to be a "cheap" city. And I have yet to be convinced that employers can't get enough workers, middle class or otherwise. Except for some highly specialized positions, most job openings can be filled without too much trouble.]
The problem is finding competent people in the lower middle to class-working class range--too many people here have bad attitudes and can't read or write. It's a very real problem: hospitals can't find competent nurses, banks can't find tellers, companies can't find secretaries.
At the end of PGS-2 we were discussing the teams that played there. The question of the NY Titans' (Jets) original home field came up. There really weren't a lot of choices since the Giants were at Yankee Stadium at the time, but nobody could remember for sure. Anyway,in today's Daily News there is an article about a possible new home field for the Jets, and there is a brief mention that they did begin in the Polo Grounds.
They played at the Polo Grounds from when the team started in 1960 until 1964 when they moved to Shea.
This is only an advisory for the planned Rockaway
Shuttle Disabled Train Trip. A group of us are
hoping to get on a shuttle train out to Rockaway
which will become disabled in a brutally cold snow
storm. Weather forecasts suggest less than 4" of
snow, not enough at this time to activate the Go
Ahead Signal. However, preliminary steps must be
taken.
I will alert the Portasan company that we may be
requiring them to send a chemical toilet out to
Broad Channel. Dougie will take his post a top of
Boro Hall,and advise us of the latest weather
conditions. He is also advised to ready his trick
deck of cards to ready for his strip poker games
with unsuspecting attractive female railfans. Paul
Matus will get the cord of firewood ready, for a
toasty fire to heat us when the power goes out.
Steve FDNY and the Sarge will be coordinating our
communication links with the outside world. If
interested, I suggest that Sea Beach Fred, Brighton
Express Bob,Culver Shuttle Craig, and 8th Ave Exp
Steve rush to the airport and await further
advisories. This is not a trip you want to hear
about from afar. I almost forgot-- Mr. Willie,
please monitor your e-mail address carefully, I will alert you when it is time to bring your camera to record this historic event.
Stay tuned to this message board for further
developments. I will be out doing some tutoring
this morning, but in the event of a full scale
activation of our plans, listen to Todd Glickman on
WCBS in NYC, or tune to 1030AM to WBZ in Boston.
Although he will not be able to give a detailed
message, he has promised to use the code word
RAILFAN WINDOW. In the event that I cannot reach
him, I have arranged with the office of Emergency
Preparedness to activate the now defunct CONELRAD
system to alert all parties.
Um HeyPaul, you taking the Q35 out to Rockaway??
I think they suspended that bus over the Marine Parkway Bridge (or whatever they now call it) since even before the storm it was down to onelane each way and the bus was brushing against the sides....
So how else shall we get there?
Lou, weather conditions are not severe enough to
mobilize, but if there is no public transportation
out there, I personally will be riding my bike from
Sheepshead over the Marine Parkway Bridge. It
should be a bracing ride, especially with the
crosswinds on the bridge. Doug may be meeting me at
Flatbush Ave & the bike path, as he has been hoping
for an opportunity to go bike riding. But again,
conditions do not seem to warrant mobilization at
this point.
Actually I am glad you questioned me. On my earlier
post I forgot to mention that Karl B has generously
offered to share with us winter cache of Entenmann's
Fruit Stollen. I will be bringing a VCR and
television to play Mr. Willie's #7 and now #2 and
#3 train videos, that I haven't previewed yet.
This will be a New York premiere screening.
Some people have e-mailed with major concerns that
the recent discord on SubTalk might continue on this
train ride. Fortunately, I have just completed a 6
week correspondence course in Crisis Resolution. I
have many interesting ideas that I would like to
experiment with on an actual group of people. So you can be assured that the health and safety of all participants will be in my competent hands.
Yeah, Paul, without a full-blown blizzard this thing ain't gonna fly.
Besides, I wasn't able to find my marked deck of cards. Bummer...
Doug aka BMTman
Weather conditions had better soon be severe enough for this trip or I will have the entire winter cache of Entenmann's Fruit Stollen completely consumed... all by myself.
Hello All,
As some of you might notice, this morning I cleaned BusTalk-- the message base was reset for a fresh start.
I think the off-topic posts, personal attacks, flamage, etc. have gotten out of hand on the *Talks. SubTalk seems to be steering itself back in the right direction in the past day.
As for what happened on BusTalk, I realize some legit posts are now gone but I think everyone should reflect on the situation and keep in mind that personal attacks and flamage just makes the place inhospitable to all.
If you feel the urge to get out of hand, just sit back and relax, reconsider, and maybe get one of those hand excersize things to play with instead. :-)
Please, lets keep the *Talks civilized. I've received many complaints in the past week or so. I for one am tired of dealing with it. I don't want to disable the *Talks permanently.
Thanks,
Dave
Drove down a very windy Turnpike to Fox Chase terminal in time to get the 9:10. This was the only SEPTA branch I'd never been on except for Airport and R6 Cynwyd. The actual terminal building is about 500 feet south of the Rhawn Street crossing which is equipped with gates and lights. Since the trains seem to end passenger service well before the crossing, I can't imagine why this crossing seems so active. Maybe they reverse trains there, although that seems unnecessary because there's a crossover south of the station, and traffic would be badly tied up waiting for trains to turn around. Both tracks run about 200 feet north of the crossing before combining into one and completely disappearing into overgrowth. If there's any thought of reactivating the line towards Newtown, a lot of restoration would be needed.
Got off at Market East and rode PATCO to Lindenwold and back. It's $1.85 each way, but you can turn around at Lindenwold by just crossing the island platform to the next train without leaving fare control. You do need the card you bought to get out of the exit gate later, or else make an embarrassing emergency call. Terrific views of Center City from the Franklin Bridge. Acceleration and ride were EXTREMELY fast. After Camden, the atmosphere is very suburban, more fitting for commuter rail than light rail. For that matter, wasn't PATCO trackage originally heavy gauge rail? The large right of way would indicate this. Best of all, there were TWO front railfan windows, one sitting and one standing. The controls are at the front left of the car, separated from the passengers by a shower curtain. Too cute for words!
Rode MFL from 8th Street to 69th Street terminal. Cars are very nice and smooth with good acceleration, although the fabric benches are already starting to separate in the middle. The PA was 'only' one stop off; other passengers told me it can be much worse: many stops off, wrong direction, voice resembling Chipmunks or 16RPM. The elevated stops along Market Street were a bit weatherbeaten, but had an interesting lattice pattern on the walls and railings. The 69th Terminal is very large, sprawling and complex with several nice views of the subway and light rail yards.
Got 101 Media Local, which was loaded with teenagers headed for Springfield Mall. Fascinating dedicated light rail right of way, at first following streets through working-class-looking Upper Darby, then breaking away on its own through ritzy-looking Drexel Hill and Springfield on what also appeared to be a former railroad right of way. (Interesting how the apparently wealthy residents of the area did not deter SEPTA from putting the line through!) The line was at grade throughout, with a wide variety of traffic control devices at street crossings: conventional traffic lights for both trolley and motor vehicles; standard 'X' crossbucks, some with just flashing lights and some with complete gate-and-overhead-stanchion assemblies common at especially congested LIRR crossings; ancient looking metal horizontal oval signs reading "RAILWAY CROSSING-WATCH FOR CARS" that looked like something out of a 1930s photograph. Some crossings seemed an absolute free-for-all, with our driver playing guessing games with motorists. Only once did he actually have to blow his horn.
After lunch in a gentrifying Media, returned to 69th Street. Even though my driver on the outbound trolley accepted my $5.00 daypass, the one going back wouldn't, and I had to shell out an extra $2.00. Just missed the 100 leaving 69th, but noticed the 100s more resembled the brand new cars destined for the Hudson-Bergen light rail while the 101s and 102s seemed almost as old as the soon to be extinct PCCs on the Newark subway.
Rode the MFL all the way to Frankford. Many of the elevated stations along Frankford seemed under renovation; others like Margaret-Orthodox were done and looked great; yet others, notably Berks and Huntingdon were absolutely putrid! Rust and holes in the roof were common. Time constraints kept me from exploring Frankford terminal and yards; the neighborhood didn't look too good either.
Just made the 1:42 out of Market East for Fox Chase. Interestingly, after Cheltenham(?), there appears to be a long abandoned spur branching out to the northeast that I don't remember ever being connected to any other defunct line. A trestle carrying it over Cottman Avenue could be seen from Ryers(?) Later driving east on Rhawn Street towards Route 1, I drove over a bridge that I believe crossed this spur. Of course it appeared as solid weeds.
Wanted to see the new Hamilton station, but I feared there would be horrendous mall traffic along 1 all through Mercer and Middlesex, so I Turnpiked it back. It took the same amount of time to get from Exit 6 to the Outerbridge as it did to get across Staten Island on the Expressway- lower level of Verrazano closed for gasoline spill.
As Dave pointed out, Philadelphia has a large variety of mass transit modes not common in the tri-state area. I couldn't help but think (a) how well a PATCO or Route 101-style light rail vehicle would go on LIRR's Montauk branch from LIC to Jamaica with a little retrofitting and grade separation; and (b) how much smaller SEPTA's network would be if there were NIMBYs in Bucks and Delaware counties back (1930s-40s-50s?) when these services were proposed.
Glad you enjoyed Philly although it wasn't the best day to visit(wind chills got down to -20 on Monday).
The Market St. El is slated to begin reconstruction this year. The Frankford(Kensington Avenue) El is technically still under renovation until about 2006(you've already seen Berks and Huntingdon-ugh!)
The neighborhood around the now under renovation Frankford Terminal is ok during the day. I once walked from about Knorr Street to Frankford Terminal(about 2 miles) and didn't see anything creepy except for that huge cemetary near the terminal.
As for the M-4's, the PA's run the gamut. According to the train, I got off at Erie-Torresdale the other day when the station signs said 63rd Street. And the chairs are beginning to sag as well as the graf/scratchitti, stained seats, torn fabric and STICKY floors.
If you haven't already, next time you're here you'd do well to ride the SS trolleys.
As for the M-4's, the PA's run the gamut. According to the train, I got off at Erie-Torresdale the other day when the station signs said 63rd Street. And the chairs are beginning to sag as well as the graf/scratchitti, stained seats, torn fabric and STICKY floors.
I ride 'em every day, and I've had good luck with the PAs lately - no glitches. There is always scratchitti - but the M-4s have the film over the windows that they peel off and replace - so none of it is permanent. If it weren't for that, every single window would be totally scratched out by now.
The one thing they screwed up in the M-4 design was the fabric seats. As you said, they are already heavily stained and even ripped in places. The seat bottoms are only held on with Velcro - they slide of very easily. Not good design. Rip and knife-resistant vinyl held in place securely would work much better and last much longer.
I rode the MFL on 12/31/1999. PA and signs were right on the money, and the trains I rode were very clean.
I also walked around the Frankford area, a few stations down from the terminal. No problems, in a lower-income area that appears to have people of several different races living next to one another.
The SEPTA commuter trains I have ridden from Trenton to Philly, at least the ones I've been in, are comfortable and spotless.
It's a much cheaper way from Penn station to Philly than Amtrak: NJT to Trenton, then walk up the platform for SEPTA. HOWEVER: it takes a little longer because it's local, and if the NJT is late, SEPTA won't wait.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So far I've had good luck with the transfer of the NJT to SEPTA R7 at Trenton. And the cost is so much less expensive. One way on Amtrak is $40, while round trip on SEPTA-NJT is $25!!!
PATCO is heavy rail, not light rail. It runs a 3rd Rail/no grade crossing operation. Thank the lord it is not commuter or light rail. It is much better and faster the way it is. Even so, I never seem to have enough time to ride it on weekends.
Two notes - PATCO uses a former railroad (PRSL) right of way but not the tracks. The PRSL was at grade through this area, with a few exceptions (mainly through Camden and the US 130 overpass). LOTS of grade crossings then!
The 'ritzy' areas in Drexel Hill and Springfield came after the trolley, so the neighbors couldn't stop it. In fact, the trolley brought the neighbors.
(Interesting how the apparently wealthy residents of the area did not deter SEPTA from putting the line through!)
The lines were built long before the surruonding areas were built up.
In the early years of the Century.
Since I live in Philly, I can't resist a few comments.
1. The 101 and 102 date to the 1920s or before -- no NIMBYs then. The LRVs were built by Kawasaki in the 1970s, and are functionally double-ended standard-gauge versions of the SEPTA "subway/surface" cars.
2. Cars on Route 100 are the much-delayed replacements for Brill Bullets, and were built by Adtrans. Delivery was completed only about three years ago.
3. Frankford end of MFSE has been rebuilt, with a couple of stations left to go. Contract has just been let to rebuild Market Street el. This will involve complete reconstruction with a prestressed concrete structure on single center columns (like BART). The Frankford end replaced the deck but retained the existing bents. Sorry to hear about the condition of the cars -- they just entered service in the last year and a half.
4. PATCO was built as a heavy rail line, using the DRPA "Bridge Line" from 16th/Locust to Camden Broadway (which has just been modernized), then new construction in the right-of-way of the former PRSL line to Atlantic City from downtown Camden. Note the active freight track to the right just after the portal southbound. That's the current freight line to South Jersey. NJT's Atlantic City Line parallels PATCO from Haddonfield south to Lindenwold. It loops to the north through Cherry Hill and over the Delaware to Frankford Jct. in NE Philly.
5. The "abandoned spur" you saw on the Fox Chase train is actually active. It is the former Reading New York Short Line, used now by CSX freights and formerly by B&O's Royal Blue to Jersey City. From Newtown Jct. to just north of Cheltenham, the Fox Chase line uses this trackage on trackage rights (one of two locations where SEPTA has rights on former Conrail trackage), then diverges to Fox Chase and (at one time) Newtown. The wire stops at Fox Chase because that's the city line, and the project predates SEPTA (early 1960s). If done now, the wire would probably have run to Newtown.
Hello fellow subway buffs, Im Happy to announce that the 7 line will continue to keep their R36s. The 6 line will be keeping their R62As. However, The R36 cars on the 6 line will HOPEFULLY RETURN HOME to the 7.Yes that means 10 cars again this summer. I like the 10 car trains and watching people get all mad hehe. The R36s are here to stay LONG LIVE THE REDBIRDS!!!!!!!! It seems as if the only redbirds that will survive will be the R36s and R33s.(SINGLES INCLUDED)Regards.
DIE SINGLES DIE.
There is absolutely no way the TA will keep those wretched, good for nothing singles while destroying so many good Redbirds. The 7 will have either R-62 or R-142 almost as soon as the R-142 is ready.
Bring on the executioner!
It's a safe bet that the R36S cars will be the first ones scrapped when the R142's start coming online. If this means 10 car 7 trains, so be it.
f this means 10 car 7 trains, so be it.
The Flushing Line is bursting at the seams during rush hours. This will reduce capacity by 9%. Sounds like something directly out of MTA/NYCT double-speak.
Umm this summer they left the signles in even without AC. 11 Cars all summer long 1999.
I certainly counted 10-car trains on the El this past summer. The 11-car trains did not re-appear until after Labor Day. Did they go out of their way to place 2 R33's in a train?
The R33S's were indeed taken out of service during July and August. But since ridership drops somewhat during these months, so you might not have noticed. Perhaps this is what the MTA plans to do until the R142's are here.
...sho should we start preparing right now for the 50th anniversary of the R-33WF singles in 2014?
Yes, bring candles, wear black and don't forget some kleenex.
The R-33 single will spend it's golden anniversary in it's grave.
Just wanted to see how long it would take to get a reply with that 50th anniversary post...four minutes.
Truth is they are pretty damn sweatty in the summer, but at 25 degrees and snowing, they fit right in with the rest of the fleet on a day like today.
But they shouldn't sweat more people, they should be retired to ATA-Heaven City Subway before they sweat people again.
i accept the fact that the redbirds will soon go down however it would be nice to retire them
WITH NEW REDBIRDS ( exact copies BRAND NEW of them ) .....
I DONT MEAN REBUILD SCRAP MATEIALS ...... i mean exact replacements new materials !!!
Great, new cars built that lack the technological and effeciency advantages developed since the 60s. Not to mention steel that will rust through in 10 years.
-Hank
...new cars built that lack the technological and effeciency advantages developed since the 60s...
What makes you think that the R142's have them? You really shouldn't believe the MTA press releases. :-)
Had the R33/36's been built with the technological and efficiency advantages that were available in 1960, they would still be around. Stainless steel bodies, lightweight trucks, dynamic/regenerative breaking, air conditioning? Suppose the 1980 rehab had used technology that was available in the 1970's.
If you look at the R142 cars,you will see that they are actually updated R33WF/R36 cars made of stainless steel.
There isn't much else to say, I just want to know about different kinds of cars and which floors they had.
FLOORS: The unsung hero of the railcar
Here you go: AS ORIGINALLY DELIVERED:
R10, R11, R12, R14, R15: Aluminum truss plate and MAGNESITE
R16, R17, R21, R22, R26, R27, R28, R28, R30, R30A:
Aluminum truss plate & vinyl/asbestos tiles
R32, R32A, R33, R36: Plywood with bonded aluminum underside;
vinyl asbestos tile
R38, R40, R40M, R42: Plywood with bonded galvanized steel under
vinyl asbestos tile
courtesy of PASSENGER CAR DATA 1947-1968
R40M and R42 added by myself
wayne
Wayne, what was the filler in between the vinyl/asbestos tiling and the aluminum plating for any of the R10 through the R36 contracts? For the floor plan for 6398 I will probably use 12 inch tiles ( not 9 due to availability), on top of flashing cement over the aluminum plating. There are no conflicts with using the flashing cement with aluminum to my knowledge and I need to know of other alternatives if there is something wrong with using the cement as a sealer.
I've contributed my share of pieces concerning the Manhattan Bridge problems that could better be termed a major fiasco, but I'm still wondering, would a new tunnel be cheaper than repairing the fault lines on the bridge itself? Certainly from the point of view of what is esthetic, the crossing of the Manhattan Bridge beats another dreary tunnel without question. Why it has taken so long to do the repairs on the bridge still escapes me. It has been closed to the Sea Beach since the late 80's or thereabouts, and there is no end in sight. Now I'm hearing that the D and B trains might be taken off the bridge. What gives? What's the long range forecast? You would think they would have figured out how to repair the bridge by now.
If the D and B are taken off the bridge, what happens? All trains run through Rutgers Street Tunnel or on Broadway? Does the Q return to Broadway if this happens?
What happens is Brooklyn becomes the world's largest parking lot, as fed-up straphangers finally abandon the subway for surface transport.
Personally, I think a replacement for the Manhattan Bridge for subway traffic (hopefully a 4-track tunnel to connect with the Broadway express and Grand St.) is the most pressing need for transit in NYC today - far more important than a Second Ave. Subway or LIRR East Side access. It's as if everyone is hiding their heads in the sand. The media and the politicians rarely, if ever, mention anything about this fiasco. It seems to me that they are just pouring money into a temporary solution.
Barring an emergency (like the bridge collapsing), there will always be some service on the bridge. As for tunnels being cheaper to build than the repair job, I'd feel secure saying that the billions already sunk into the bridge repair project over the past 18 years would have certainly been enough to build 4 replacement tunnels for the B/D/N and Q.
We've been on the subject of a Stillwell Avenue Tour this spring or early summer, and it has been suggested my others and myself that we could include other sights like the Franklin Shuttle, the Polo Grounds shuttle, and other subways haunts that many of us have never been exposed to. Would it be possible to make this into an all weekend tour and include many sights? I believe this would make it a more well-rounded trip, especially for those of us who have to travel long distances to get to New York.
Polo Grounds Shuttle combined with a Stillwell tour? Are we going to include the Newark Subway into this trip? The LA Subway? The Tokyo Subway?
Tell you what, you supply the plane and we'll do it. How does that idea defy reason mr. defy reason?
Becuase if you go so far afield, you might as well call it a full subway tour and not a Stillwell Avenue Tour.
Did anyone go get pictures due to the snow on the east coast today? I would have been on the 7 if I was in NYC. May head out on the Red Line to Shady Grove here tomorrow. Tell you about it if I go.
I went out to take some pictures but it not a good day for me. Some of i take pictures is Dyre Ave & White Plain line.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Here's a good one for all you Subtalkers!
If you were in charge of the subway, and your fairy godmother (or Bill Gates) gave you one billion dollars to spend any way you wanted on the subways, how would you spend it?
Not enough for the Second Avenue Subway...but enough for some serious improving...or a couple of new stations...what would you folks do if you could spend a billion dollars on the subway system?
Build a tunnel replacement for the Manny B. Extend the Nostrand Ave Line and the lines in Queens.......
3TM
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'd make the system OPTO. Yes, I know that the system is very complex, and all that. Then again, I won't be getting the billion dollors, either. Actually, my fantasy is that I'll be in charge of making the system OPTO.
>>>OPTO<<
Quid est "OPTO"?
www.forgotten-ny.com
One Person Train Operation
Why? What is wrong with conductors? Do you realize how slow the trains will become if the whole system goes OPTO? That's what happened here in Chicago. Not to mention how unsafe it will become...
01/21/2000
How about guaranteed restoration of all museum cars and a large quonset hut building for them to be stored out of the elements.
Bill Newkirk
That would be easy for me. I'd first of all clean up the tracks and stations on the opencut Sea Beach Line so they looked like the refurbished Brighton Beach line instead of like poverty row. Then I would refurbish all those min-tunnels by pass under the surface streets. Finally, I would clear up and spruce up the tracks leading from 86th Street to Stillwell Avenue. You'll notice I never mentioned the Manhattan Bridge. From what I've been hearing, even all of Bill Gates' money couldn't do the trick, though I suspect even if it could the Transit Authority could turn a London Broil into dog poo.
I noticed in pictures of the R-142's the Kamasaki and Bombardier went back to the bench seating like the redbird seating. The R-62's have the most uncomfortable seating on the subway. The seats have those annoying rims near your legs, when the trains get crowded, you dont have the elbow and shoulder room. The redbird bench seats are far more comfortable,even when the train is crowded.Is there a reason that the R-142's went back to bench seating?
Yeah, lots of people complaining about the buckets.
Speaking of, I caught a repeat last night (ok, 3am Thursday) of the Conan O'Brien show. He had Sarah Jessica Parker (god, is she CUTE!) on, and she was talking about the new subway cars, hoping that they're comfortable and that they work.
-Hank
How did she and Conan get around to that topic? It's very rare for celebrities to come on late night talk shows to plug new model subway cars.
She just came on the show. She walked through the curtain, and she just mentioned it.
-Hank
Hmm. Who knows, maybe next time she's on with Letterman or Leno Sarah will start talking about www.nycsubway.org (though both of them are more into cars than subways)
01/20/2000
I posted this awhile back and since the R-142's are here and there is a lot of talk of these cars, let's talk about some alternative uses for retire Redbirds.
1) RIDER CARS - It seems that the TA always updates their rider cars for obvious reasons. It wasn't a long time ago that LOW-V's were still being used for this purpose. When the R-62's came in, the LOW-V's were scrapped and the R-15,17 & (21?)22's took their place. So now with the R-142's looking to change the face of the IRT Division, it would seem that the current riders would be replaced by...R-33 singles or divorced married pairs. Remember, they're only rider cars, their MU days are over.
2) Revenue cars - Once again the R-21/22's should be replaced by the married Redbirds. They're air conditioned and windows can be closed for added security.
3)Now what could Number 3 be? your ideas for recycled redbirds, which will probably emerge when rebuilt as Yellowbirds !!
Bill Newkirk
#3 - De Icers, Reach Cars for the Pump Train, and Cars for the Continuous Welded Rail Train. There are Gel Cars on the Road, so we might as well put a few extra out. How about Snow Plows like what became of the Lo-Vs? I'd say that the yellow jackets are on the way.
Please remember to save some Redbirds for the various Museums before they get mutiliated, which is what will happen as cars start losing components.
-Stef
NYC PARTY TRAIN!!!
Seriously - the MTA should start looking for alternative sources of revenue by selling and renting trains (charters, etc.) and selling "track time" to those wanting to use their new purchases on the system.
Rush-hour use would be prohibited, of course, but other than that... Why not?? A great afterlife for the redbirds, IMHO!
Man... The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. There are all sorts of business possibilities.
NYC Party Train is certainly one - run a club on wheels that starts after the evenig rush hour. If successful, it could be expanded to several themed trains.
LimoTrain is another. A few cars with luxury seating, bar, etc. that could be chartered for special events.
How about PromoTrain? You know those billboard-trucks they have driving around the city? Do it with a train! Huge wraps on the outside, maybe even pop-up billboards on the roofs for el sections. And you could have the insides set up as selling areas, where you could have product demos and giveaways. Do contests, etc while people ride around. Even make it retail - let people buy the product if they like it. Give people a 1-ride MetroCard for watching the demo, making the ride free! Ad-sponsored interactive transit - applying an Internet business model to transit - incredible!
The MTA would profit from all of this - from sale of the train, from "track time" charges, which cover electric and manpower costs for tower operators, etc. Plus make a profit on repair and maintenance - make the shops just like your local auto mechanic!
I think it could work - anyone else have ideas or comments?
Chips n Dip:
Today I noticed for the first time that
on the Flushing AND Flatbush Redbirds
(9601 & 9129 respectively) the doors
are NOT directly opposite one another.
At one point, one can enter the car and
proceed directly into seats. The opposite
doors were about 3 feet to the right of the
others. Have never noticed that on any other
redbirds..
If redbirds are being lopped from the Lex line,
the FLUSHING line could use a few... the Lex
birds are in somewhat better shape than the
Flushings..
Is the FLUSHING Grand Central Stop a recently
added (1970+) station? It's shape HINTS that
it was once just a tunnel (my bet), while a
friend insists that it was always a station?
SIGHTED at the Dyckman IRT station (uptown
platform): signs reading "Dyckman Street"
in common white-on-black format just
mere feet from a former (lightly painted-over)
sign with Dyckman Street spelled out in
green/white/blue tile! (forgotten ny??)
And finally, I felt nostalgic walking to the
GCT Station passing thru the Chrysler Building
Hallway leading into the Chrysler as well as
the platform. Rare, eh?
Ferry1/9
Today I noticed for the first time that on the Flushing AND Flatbush Redbirds (9601 & 9129 respectively) the doors are NOT directly opposite one another. At one point, one can enter the car and proceed directly into seats. The opposite doors were about 3 feet to the right of the others. Have never noticed that on any other redbirds..
You haven't noticed this on any other Redbirds because you haven't rode in any others, I guess
Is the FLUSHING Grand Central Stop a recently
added (1970+) station? It's shape HINTS that
it was once just a tunnel (my bet), while a
friend insists that it was always a station?
I assume that that's true and that means that Grand Central was also built in the 70s.
SIGHTED at the Dyckman IRT station (uptown
platform): signs reading "Dyckman Street"
in common white-on-black format just
mere feet from a former (lightly painted-over)
sign with Dyckman Street spelled out in
green/white/blue tile! (forgotten ny??)
I remember a few years ago when the TA ripped out all the tiles from the stations.
And finally, I felt nostalgic walking to the
GCT Station passing thru the Chrysler Building
Hallway leading into the Chrysler as well as
the platform. Rare, eh?
There are no stations like that! Stop lying!
AH! THE PAIN! THE PAIN! THE CHOCOLATE!
moravi
South Ferry 1/9 wrote:
[Today I noticed for the first time that on the Flushing]
[AND Flatbush Redbirds (9601 & 9129 respectively) the doors]
[are NOT directly opposite one another. At one point, one]
[can enter the car and proceed directly into seats. The]
[opposite doors were about 3 feet to the right of the]
[others. Have never noticed that on any other redbirds..]
Hate to tell you this, but the doors on IRT cars have been offset since the R17's of 1955. They've used the same basic floorplan
ever since.
I recall reading or hearing about this recently as a "new" feature of the R142 series. I knew that wasn't true, but what really caught my attention was that they implied that some cars had offset doors, while others did not. Do only "B", or only "A" cars have offset doors?
The Chrysler Building has a
stairway from the main lobby directly into
the subway platform. there's the dip.
What?? What does that have to do with offset doors?
>>What does that have to do with offset doors?
You totally misread it.
Doors on R62/62A's are not offset the are directly opposite each other.
Peace,
Andee
As I understand it,the QJ train was cancelled because the route was considered too long by operaters,all local except rush hours and old cars[R16/R27-30/R1-9].Regardless of this, I always found the QJ an exellent run. It had everything you could want{from a railfans point of view)and the service wasn't bad ether. The only problem I saw with this route was the hours of operation. MON-FRI 7am to 7pm! From Jamaica to Coney Island and other times to Broad Street. I also realy liked the QJ partner[the KK]. It was killed ,not cancelled. Rush hour only and all local service along with old cars did not draw alot of riders especialy in the summer months. Overall, I think the TA acted a bit hastly when the line was cut back to Broad st,and the M[UGH!!!]replaced it. After 1973 ,the whole Eastern Division went down hill. What do you guys think?
I thought the KK was an important line because it was the only line that gave people on the Jamaica/Bway El a one seat ride to midtown.
The KK would have made more sense if they had used the East New York connection to go to Canarsie. The problem with heading further east was the closer you got to Jamaica, the more people didn't see the purpose of taking the slow Broadway-Brooklyn local instead of going over to catch the E or F.
The original idea of the KK was to alleviate congestion on the Hillside Ave IND by adding service to midtown on the Jamaica Ave. el. Bad idea. With the lack of a middle express track and the incredibly slow route the KK has to use because of all those curves and the bridge crossing, it would never, ever draw enough people away from the E/F to make it worthwhile.
Sending the KK to Canarsie wouldn't help much, as the KK trip to midtown is still slower than taking the Canarsie line into Manhattan and transferring to uptown/downtow lines there.
As conceived and operated, no it wouldn't have lasted very long.BUT today, as a replacement for Z service,express along the BWAY EL to ENY and limited stops along the Jamaica EL[skip-stop HA HA HA WHAT A JOKE]to Parsons/Archer,it would work very well.
No it wouldn't. Those who want midtown at the eastern end of the J line will continue to do what they do today, which is to take the J to Sutphin Blvd. for the E train. It's still faster. No new "K" train will ever be successful, because of the physical structure of the J line, with it's speed limiting curves, and the speed limiting Willy B crossing.
So how do you feel about line relocation strait down Jamaica Ave.?[NIMBY not included]
That would help. Eliminating the S curve at Crescent St., and the insertion of a third express track would really help. Probability of this ever happening: 0%
True. but not long ago ,I read some of the proposals for the new METRO-EAST lines, and low and behold, this very subject was under advisment.
How would that work? It would continue down Jamaica Ave. into Brooklyn and the old Fulton St. portion would be raised? Where would they make the connection into the Eastern Pky station?
I think the plan was for one track to run down Jamaica Ave. and be used only by express trains, which would re-connect with the J train south of Alabam Ave.
Kind of what the Queens Blvd line does between 65th & 36th Streets. Intersting.
No, the whole line would take the more direct Jamaica Avenue route.
Both Fulton Street and Jamaica Avenue connect to Broadway.
The Jamaica line was to be three tracks above Jamaica avenue to Broadway with limited stops,with the option for one express track from Cypress Hills to ENY[NEW RIGHT OF WAY].Third tracking to Jamaica would start soon after.
If the line was built like that back in 1917, then the J line woul be much more beneficial to southeastern Queens than it is today.
BTW if you look at the Woodhaven Blvd. station, the steel supports swing out just south of the station, indicating this station would have been a 2 island express stop had the 3rd track been installed. The buildings along Jamaica Ave. at this point are also farther back from the street than in other areas.
The reason for this, the Jamaica line used to run on the surface[street level for thoses who don't know]and when the time came[Dual Contract's 3 and 4] renovations were done to the BWAY EL and the surface line was placed on the new EL. The powers that be decided to leave the trackage over Fulton street.Why? Other projects or was it just being to cheap. Anyway,because of this oversight and years of NIMBY protest,this the Jamaica line we have today,full of speed restrictions and lacking express tracks. What a shame.
Actually, the Jamaica line was supposed to open in 1918 with a middle track, just like the Liberty Ave el was, as it was designed and constructed by the same people. However, demand for the line was so bad because of the employment surge after the US's entry into WWI that the J line was rushed with the 2 local tracks being opened up first. The idea was to put in the third track after the line was open to 168th St. Obviously, that never happened.
Demand was SO heavy that the BRT opened the Cypress Hills to 111th St. portion 6 months before the line to 168th St. was completely finished.
It would not be raised, it would be demolished.
>>It would not be raised, it would be demolished.
That's just a typo, not a misunderstanding--he means "rased" (or "razed"), meaning cut down (same root as "razor").
Running the K from Canarsie on the express track from B'way-East New York to Marcy Ave. would solve that problem, since there would only be two stops before the train crossed the Manny B. No way taking the L to Sixth Ave. and 14th Street would be faster than that.
The crossoer is designed to feed into the Bway local track. Switching it over to the express will only create another bottlneck. And yes, with all the new wheel detector and GT signals on the Willy B and Broadway el, the trip via the 14th St line would get to 14th/6th faster, even with the KK going express after Eastern Pkwy.
City bound the Flyover track appears to feed directly into the centre track at Eastern Parkway, with the outer, local track diverging after the Flyover junction. Outbound, you would have to switch from centre track to local track at some point or else have the lead to the flyover cross the local track at grade (it may already be doing this).
That wouldn't be such a bad run - Canarsie, express via B'way then up 6th Avenue, wearing the "K" sign.
Wayne
Actually, the flyover track becomes the local track just outside of Eastern Pkwy. It is the J trains coming off Fulton St. which have to switch, merging with the flyover track when running local. Any train from Canarse going over the Broadway line HAS to use the local track.
I thought they should have kept the "KK". It DID serve a purpose, as noted, as a one-seat ride from eastern Brooklyn to Midtown. Unfortunately, the deplorable condition of the cars used on it (they even used aged AB's early on) may have made people disgusted about riding it. Maybe they should have concentrated what R42s they had on the "KK" instead of the "QJ" or gotten them from another line, like maybe the "D", which had over 100 of them back then.
Wayne
I don't ever remember Standards on the KK, even at its beginning.
There was one train of them - probably shared with the "LL" or "M". One of the cars was #2424. Its picture is in the AB Section of the illustrated car roster. I also saw it northbound at B'way-Lafayette, signed up "B'way L'cl" where it still had signs. It was very ratty, in deplorable condition, a mere shell of its former grandeur.
Wayne
I've never heard of a BMT Standard running on an IND line, even back in the 1950's, when BMT Broadway service was connected to the Queens IND.
Yes, there were a few - VERY few. Before the R27s/R30s arrived, the #2 (RR) had AB types as well as R-1s/R-4s going out to Queens. And there was that lone "KK" AB type.
Wayne
The Brighton Local ran standards starting from 1955 to Forest Hills weekdays
The BMT standards did have the right signs for the KK line, as it turned out: 57th St. Manhattan and 168th St. Jamaica, although the latter may have been simply, Jamaica. And, of course, Broadway-Brooklyn Local which was truncated.
But wouldn't the 168th St. and 57th St. rollsign be on the same roll, as both are "northern" terminals?
Remember there used to be two 168th Street terminals -- Washington Heights and Jamaica.
But 168th st./Washington Heights would NOT be in the rollsign of a BMT standard.
No, they never did have a "168th St. Mnhttn" sign, but the Standard roll signs' information was limited. So "57th St. Mnhttn" could be used for either Seventh Ave. and 57th or for Sixth and 57th, during that brief moment when the Standards ran on the KK line. So you could run a KK from "57th St. Mnhttn" to "168th St. Jamca" and it would still, technically, be correct.
The BMT Standard I saw on the "KK", northbound at Broadway-Lafayette really caught my eye. It did not have signs in every car. I DID see Eastern P'ky (I think) and B'way L'c'l. It was the beginning of the PM rush, November 29, 1968. All the other KK's I saw were of the R-7/R-9 variety. A few R42 "KK"s were spotted on subsequent trips. I never saw the Standard again on the "KK" - however, I DID see it on the "M" on April 11, 1969, and also saw other ones on the Culver Shuttle on both dates. They were all in pretty bad shape, but still running.
Wayne
True. But how could any BMT standard sport both signs at the same time, with 57th St. and 168th/Jamaica both being northern terminals?
Easy. One one set of signs, you'd set them to "Br'w'y Brklyn L'c"l" and "Jamaica". On the other set, you'd set them to "Br'w'y Brklyn L'c'l" and "57th St. Manhattan". Ditto for the other side of each car.
The BMT standards had two sets of rollsigns on each side, on either side of the center doors. The upper sign on each sign gave the route name, the bottom sign one of two destinations. All destination signs had all destinations. If you go to Joe Korman's website, you can scroll through the simulated BMT standard signbox and see for yourself.
The route signs had the names arranged so that all Southern Division lines were grouped together. Ditto for the Eastern Division. There were also generic "Express", "Local", "Via Bridge", and "Via Tunnel" designations. I have a route curtain from a later large-size signbox.
Thanks. I didn't know that. I thought the Standard's signs were similiar to the IND R1-9 signs.
I agree. Newer cars were ran on the QJ/M lines such as the R27/30,R42S and sometimes R32S.But on the KK, there were only R1-9 cars and maybe an R42 or 27/30 once in awhile.while running times on the QJ were quite long, the same could be said of the C train today[168 st. to Eucild Av]A Train,to Far Rockaway,R Train from 95th to 71 Av. etc. I believe the QJ was not given the chance to live up to it's true potenal,nor was the KK,while other routes were allowed to prosper[if that's what you could call it.]The new cars[R44/46] could not run on these lines because of clearace problems[which still exist to this very day]where as all the other lines had this problems corrected and platforns extended to 10 car lengths[BMT Bway line and feeders] Without the few improvments,of course the QJ/KK and M[i am going to hurl] wouldn't be able to keep up with the passenger loads. The only good thing that has ever happened to the BWAY EL was the Archer Avenue line,and even then five stations were replaced with two. Now, the QJ/KK skip stop replacments[J/Z]AREN'T WORTH the money spent to run them! At least with the old routing,one of the two went to mid town. Now ALL TRAINS go downtown,with that other train[ugh] going to BROOKLYN. Here's a new service plan I think might work after the Manhattan Bridge line reopens. 1]J from Jamaica Center to 95th St 4th Av. 2]Z from Jamaica Center to 145th st 8th av line. 3]M] from METROPOLITAN AV to Broad st. What do you guys think?
sounds great cause the wait at 36 street in brooklyn for the 4th ave local is really bad. i agree wit u very much why hasnt this been done already?
You know something? I don't know. The TA seems to think everyone wants to go downtown. If that were true,why do most of the riders get off at Essex St? There's a way that the TA can help with this problem. Build the Worth Street Subway line from the Williamsburg Bridge portal down to East Bway,to Worth st,along that street to Church/Canal station stub of the 8th ave subway local. This will bring some trains to the downtown area,bring more east/west service to the area and give riders a direct connection to the 8th avenue line.
why is a Sea Beach man waiting for the boring, ugly 4th Avenue Local. There is no scenery, no daylight, and nothing to look forward to than the stifling 95th Street terminal stop. If you're going to catch a train at 36th Street, you take the Sea Beach. And if you want some variety, slum just a little and take the West End. But NEVER, NEVER take the 4AL unless you absolutely have to---then it might be just better to walk.
How long does it take to walk betweem 59th/4th (or even 36th/4th) and 86th/4th, rather than waiting for the R?
The only purpose of the R for me is to go to some shop located on 4th Ave just S of 86th.
I agree that 95th is particularly bad the one time I went there, and walked back up 7-8 blocks on 4th Ave.
R service is woefully inadequate, especially since the line also carries thousands of Staten Island residents who use express busses to 86th St. If the M was routed to 95th St, it would help considerably.
Not express buses. Local buses, the s53 and s79 ron from Port Richmond via Clove Rd and the SI Mall via Richmond Ave and Hylan Blvd, respectively, and then over the VZ to the 86st Station. Until recently, the s53 ran to the 95st station.
-Hank
Extra R service is needed, not M service. If it wasn't for the Manhattan Bridge, the R would get away with more service.
Any extra service is welcome. Since almost all R riders switch to other lines or express trains to get to midtown, the M would do just fine in getting these people to the stations in which they can transfer to other lines (Pacific or Dekalb). Besides, Bay Ridge, being a predominantly white/middle class 'hood means that they have a larger percentage of downtown/financial district workers living there, which the M would serve well.
Based on the scale on the bus map, I say its about 30-35 minutes from 59th to 86th and about 25 minutes from 36th to 59th. Maybe some extra R trains can start at Whitehall St. and end at 95th.
Chambers would be better
Jamaica Center to 95th St. sounds like a reincarnation of the short-lived RJ line.
The route it took doomed the KK, not the cars run on it. I was too slow. Imagine taking the KK from 34th St to 160th St. That took at least 1 hour. Using the F to Parsons Blvd. took only 25 minutes.
Who today takes the R from Bay Ridge to Herald Sq? I'd bet 90% of people who need to get from BAy Ridge to Herald Sq. transfer to the B/D or Q at Pacific or Dekalb.
I take the R out of Bay Ridge....the main goal of the Broadway Local rider is to get off of it and onto an express as soon as possible!
yea thats my main goal every mornining.
Hey Fred, if that is your main goal, when you retire and move back to Brooklyn, and you could ride the N all the time
That's not Fred. There are two Sea Beach posters on the board now.
Where are all my Brighton Fans????
They've gone the way of the 10 cents cup of coffee. They're gone Bob, they're gone. Can't you understand, the Sea Beach is is, the Brighton is out. Actually the Brighton was always my second favorite line.
Fred You are learning, there is more to see on the Brighton, it has everything you want from Prospect Park to C>I> Your tunnels, undercut, overhead embankment, L, and SPEED
I'll bet I know why. Could it have anything to do with the Dodgers?:)
P. S. Nice to see the #4 in front of your handle.
>>Where are all my Brighton Fans????
Gee, I thought it went without saying. The Cyclone...the beach...Mrs. Stahl's Knishes under the el...Sheepshead Bay bluefish... Erasmus Hall...Prospect Park...DeKalb interlocking (slow, but cool)...world's best view from a train over the Manny B (knock wood)... Chinatown... Radio City...all on a slant--go, Q! It's like Dylan said--when Quinn the Eskimo gets here, everybody's gonna jump for joy. He didn't know he was talking about a train, but we do.
Can't say I miss the QJ, though.
How about Madison HS, Dubrows, The Kingsway Theater, all on the Brighton Lines, O Brooklyn College, Lundys etc. Come on let us give Sea Beach Fred and the new Sea Beach N Train the razz all you Brighton Fans
Brooklyn College, Lundys, and Madison High School are distant from the Brighton Line. What's Dubrow's?
Dubrow's was a cafeteria that was on the north west
corner of Kings Highway and East 16th Street. It
was a popular place, where I use to enjoy a hot open
roast beef sandwich. It was a hangout for teenagers
from Madison, and during the daytime older people
would often buy a cup of coffee and spend many hours
with others. I think it closed at least 20 years
ago, if not more. It was right by the subway. Of
the three other places you mentioned, Lundy's was
and is the closest to the subway. Both Madison and
Brooklyn College are about 9 or 10 blocks from the
subway.
There was also Garfield's Cafeteria at Flatbush & Church.
I remember THAT place well! We used to eat brunch there after church (St. Paul's, E.19th & St.Pauls' Court, one block west of Ocean) and sometimes we even had dinner there with Grandma (she lived at 2015 Dorchester). One time I saw something that looked interesting there - pickled herring. I tasted it - BHLECCCHHHH! It didn't taste so good after all (it IS an acquired taste!). Fortunately, Grandma liked it so she wound up eating it.
Wayne
Wayne, you don t know what you are missing, pickled hering and sour cream and onions
I guess to a 9-year-old, it was a little bit strange. Perhaps I should try it again one day - they sell it at the store - VITA brand.
Anything that didn't taste like fried spaghetti (that's another story), pizza, hamburgers or meat loaf didn't go over too big with me.
I STILL can't/won't eat an egg!
Wayne
OK, you got me curious - why not?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse, a.k.a. Mr. Beet-pickled Egg
re. my distaste for Eggs...
OK, you got me curious - why not?
Can't stand the sulfuric odor and taste of them - plus they make me break out in hives, itching, wheezing etc.
Fried spaghetti: Mom used this trick to reheat leftover spaghetti and sauce. Butter in a frying pan, plop in the spaghetti and hit it with salt. Mighty good!
Wayne
Another fine culinary tradition rendered obsolete by the invention of the microwave!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And Onions are the food I hate the most. I won't eat them, touch them, look at them, or smell them. If I look at an onion long enough I will come close to heaving. No kidding!
I guess that answers the question of weither youve ever had Nathans onion rings huh? MY personal anathema* food wise are BEETS...yuk!
* my 5 cent word for the day.....
I guess you wouldn't like my brisket - actually it's a Pot Roast. I made one Sunday and had Part II of it tonight. Not only did I use two envelopes of Lipton's Onion Soup Mix in the stock (2½ cups of water) but I chopped up a whole Spanish Onion and threw it in (along with potatoes, carrots, celery and parsnips).
The sight of Egg Salad nauseates me - and cut open a hard-boiled egg lengthwise to expose the hardened, puke-green/yellow yolk - YURRRGGGGHHHHH! BHLECCCCCH! Up comes lunch!
Wayne
I don't mind eggs...
...As long as I don't think about where they came from. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Wayne: Pot roast his good. I eat it once in a while with carrots and noodles. But that Spanish Onion. Yuk, just like your feeling about the yolk of an egg. Good eating to you.
Never mind being on a sweltering F train under the East River, eh?:)
You know, #1277 wasn't the only "F" that made for a memorable ride due to the heat...one of them was my good old buddy #4246 (the one I took so many post-GOH pictures of in and out). In fact, he got so hot one day, he claimed one rider, who craked hanging onto a strap somewhere between Queens Pza and 71st-Continental. The crowd was holding him up. When they thinned at 71st Avenue, KER-PLOP! Down he went. I thought he had merely fainted (it was 105 degrees plus on that train, and a NON-A/C Slant to boot, complete with grimy ceiling and dim lites) but soon it became apparent that more was amiss here. Someone called for help and then some wise-ass pulled the emergency cord. (I guess they figured this was a real emergency - I didn't; the guy was as dead as a doornail). Anyway, they tried to revive him, dragged him out to the platform, cops came, EMS came, they tried giving him oxygen even - all to no avail. And then some guy who was watching all this (I was watching myself, from the inside of the now-stalled train) calmly bends down and picks the pack of Pall Malls out of the guy's pocket and walks away!
16 July 1973, on the Queens IND.
Wayne
Here I go again, getting off subject about talking about Brooklyn Food Again
01/23/2000
And all your growling stomachs in unison sound like the D Types leaving Newkirk Ave southbound and climbing the embankment to Kings Highway!
Bill Newkirk
Brighton Express to Brighton Beach Next stop Kings Highway and Dubrows(Don t we wish?)
Speak for yourself pal, but I'm taking the Sea Beach to Avenue U for an Italian dinner with no onions. The Brighton Beach? Strictly minor league.
"Speak for yourself pal, but I'm taking the Sea Beach to Avenue U for an Italian dinner with no onions. The Brighton Beach? Strictly minor league."
Putting down the Brighton Line and onions?! What else can you expect from someone who dislikes Martin Landau. Landau was in one of my favorite Outer Limits, "The Man Who Was Never Born." Also did a fabulous Bela Lugosi in "The Ed Wood Story."
What are the favorite foods and actors of someone who prefers the Sea Beach Line? Hot Dogs with mayo and Barbara Streisand? I've got my face over the toilet so you can tell me now.
Alan B.L M.L.H.D.W.M. Glick
(The middle initials stand for Brighton Line, Martin Landau, and Hot Dogs with Mustard)
Yeah, Martin Landau was EXCELLENT as Lugosi.
BTW, I'm glad Landau dumped his no-talent wife, Barbara Bain. Notice how ever since they split his career soared while she's a do-nothing has-been?
The Sea Beach Line is mostly just a cut -- not as great views as on the Brighton.
Doug aka BMTman
And for those who enjoy cuts, the Brighton has that too. Two types even (if you count the shuttle), slope sides and solid wall.
Hey Alan: It's Barbra, not Barbara, and she is a good Brooklyn girl, and I even forgive her for being a Democrat. What do Sea Beach nuts like? Well, there's pasta and seafood dishes, whole wheat bread and lots of broccoli and spinach. As for fruits, we love oranges and peaches. We don't like marbled fat in pork, or beef, we don;t eat butter or eggs, and we try to stay physically fit.
Next stop on the Sea Beach Line is 20th Avenue.
I remember eating at Dubrow's (god does that bring back memories) and I remember Garfields too. But I'd have to opt for the Concord Cafeteria in Jamaica (under the el). I can still remember the grey an orange LIRR trains a block away. I can't remember what was running on the jamaica el at that time.
Depends how how old you are. Pre 55 Standards after who knows.
Could have been R-16s or R-27/30s.
01/23/2000
I remember Garfield's too. I sometimes had lunch there when attending Erasmus Hall High School (Class of '70). BTW, actor Donny Most who played Ralph Malph on "Happy Days" is in my year book. Never met the guy, wonder what he's doing today ?
Bill Newkirk
Hope he didnt wig out like Jay North (Dennis the Menance).
I guess you would remember Jahn's on Church Av- wasnt there a second one right near by on Flatbush Av too?
There was also a Jahn's in East Meadow on Hempstead Tnpk & Newbridge Rd right by the Levittown Roller Rink. The roller rink and Jahn's were a great date combination in the 60's. Right across Newbridge (where Edward's is now) there was Pat Lordi's Miniature Golf and Trampolines.
Jahn's Trivia Questions:What was Jahn's biggest sundae called?For what reason would Jahn's give you a free sundae?
1) EVERYTHING BUT THE KITCHEN SINK!
2) If you managed to EAT "EVERYTHING BUT THE KITCHEN SINK"!
Jahn's - RICHMOND HILL - Hillside Avenue and 121st Street.
Wayne (Do I get a free sundae?) :o>>>
#1. Almost. I think it was just called "The Kitchen Sink" but maybe my memory is wrong and you're right.
2. Wrong, try again
#1. Almost. I think it was just called "The Kitchen Sink" but maybe my memory is wrong and you're right.
#2. Wrong, try again
The chain was founded by Frank Jahn. Had it not been for Friendly's, they might still be here today.
The largest sundae was THE KITCHEN SINK. They put two (I think) scoops of every flavor ice they sold in a large bowl with whipped cream and everything else on top. It was originally $6.95 and fed a battalion. Of course if there only 7 or 8 people it was mush by the time you reached for se- onds.
#2 - The free sundae was given on a person's birthday. I remeber standing one night in the late 60's on the corner of Flatbush and Church until 12:01 AM so one of our gang could get a free sundae. I think Jahn's was open unitl 1AM in those days.
The Jahn's locations I remember
1 - Hillside and 121st - I think the original spot where it started
2 - Jackson Heights - 37th Avenue and 81st Street
3 - Flushing - Main Street (west side) a block or two south of LIRR
4 - New Hyde Park (?) - Hillside Avenue in a shopping Center
5 - Rego Park - Queens Blvd near 63rd Drive
6 - East Meadow - Hempstead Tpke near the Wantagh Pkwy
7 - Brooklyn - Church Avenue near Flatbush
8 - Brooklyn - Somewhere near where Kings Plaza is today.
9 - Bronx - Fordham Road north side east of Grand Concourse. I think it is the location where Reuben Sierra got in trouble for hanging out at a restaurant with shady character.
Does anybody remember any others. Never met the founder but his son, also Frank Jahn (maybe Jr.) was active and an officer in a volunteer orchestra known as the Jamaica Symphony Orchestra Society, Inc.
The Jahn's near King's Plaza lasted until about 1995, when it went out and became a Russian Restaurant. It was at the corner of Nostrand And U.
There was another Jahn's in BK, on 86th Street. It disappeared in the early '80's.
I saw one once in Union NJ-- does anyone know if its still there? I've been waiting too long for the next Eiffle Tower- a giant ice cream soda served in a large flower vase.
The store in Union has been gone for maybe two years.
there was also one on NOSTRAND AVE and AVE Z
Wasn't it Gerritsen & Ave U? Nostrand & Ave U still has that small pub (forget its name) ....
--Mark
I went and looked, it was Garritsen, not U. Its now a Russian restaurant.
The original Jahn's on Hillside and 121st St is still there, easily noticable from passing J trains.
Wasn't there one at the intersection of Ave. U and Nostrand (near Voorhies Ave.)?
I seem to recall it lasted up till the early 80s?
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, that's the one I remember. I think the building is still there as a restaurant?
Alan Glick
Its a russian restaurant now.
"Wasn't there one at the intersection of Ave. U and Nostrand (near Voorhies Ave.)?
I seem to recall it lasted up till the early 80s?"
Actually, you probably mean Ave Z. That's the one I was referring to.
Alan Glick
Yea, I think it was actually on the corner of U and Garritson. It was the Flame diner before that, having a large gas torch on its roof.
YOU ARE RIGHT!!!
YOU ARE RIGHT!!!
It was the Kitchen Sink. And you did get a free sundae on your birthday!!
By the way, I had no idea the chain was so big. I only knew of the East Meadow branch and the 2 Bklyn branches. Thanks for the information.
I hope Carvels is still around. It went out of business in Calif in the late 80s, when Koreans started running them(nothing against Koreans) They could not get the products from NY
Carvel is still around, but no more commercials with Tom anymore as he passed on to the great ice cream stand in the sky.
I misx Jahn's I used to to take my girlfriend (now my wife to the one in Richmond Hill....I'm in Virginia and really miss the place...As for Carvel, the nearest one is in Virginia Beach quite a ride away from us and it's not the same as one from New York
Carvel never made it in California because we have Baskin-Robbins and their ice cream is the best. Carvel custard was good but out here they tried to compete with BR's ice cream and it was no contest. I'm sorry to have seen Carvel come crashing down in California but when it comes to ice cream we're pretty particular.
AFAIC Nothing beats Carvel's Mint Chocolate Chip! Before sugar became an issue for me, I'd go through a pint every two days in the summertime. Carvel MCC - YUM! [Munch! Slurp!]
Wayne :o>
As far as ice cream by the scoop, Carvel has a coarser texture than Baskin-Robbins, and doesn't have the range of flavors. But their ice cream cakes are far superior to anything B-R has ever produced. Down home in North Carolina there's a Baskin-Robbins right next door to the Hobby Shop that I'm involved with - great for business, what with a children's shoe store on the other side. But here in New Jersey I've got a Carvel just three or four miles down route 35, so I'm very happy!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wayne: Mine is Baskin-Robbins Chocolate Chip. I've cut down lately but I swear there was a time I ate seven quarts a week. Good thing I'm a runner but I knew I had to cut down.
Hey Fred---If you still lived in NY and Jahn's was still around you could have jogged there for a salad. If you recall Jahn's had salads, burgers, sandwiches and other "short-order food" which is why I made the comment in my earlier post that Jahn's a high class version of Friendly's or Swenson's, rather than B-R or Carvel..Not sure if Jahn's Ice Cream was homemade or not. I'm sure in the old days at 121 & Hillside it was.
9306WF: Pardon my ignorance but I do not remember Jahn's. I know this must be heresy because it seems all of the other old war horses do but, sad to say, I don't. I will say this, thought. Strange as it may seem, I enjoyed running in New York last summer when I visited for two weeks. There is plenty to see and you can take routes where the traffic is not so bad. I did a lot of it in Queens and Brooklyn, the two boroughs of my youth. The only fly in the ointment is the humidity. I have to admit that it was a little more arduous to run in the heat there. The one great thing about running, though, is that after I shower and clean up I usually treat myself to a big dish of spaghetti, my favorite food. I do precede that with a piece of seafood and a salad. But Jahn;s? Forgive me, but I just don;t remember the place as a kid.
Don't feel bad! I lived only a couple of miles from the main one in Richmond Hill and did not know about it. I was a high school senior when I got there for the first time. All of the cast members from the senior play went there for an ice cream party, after our final dress rehearsal. We rode the Standards from Elderts Lane to 121st St to get there. I was quite impressed with my first visit.
Todd, Would you call this ice cream and transit together?
Actually, Karl, I had nearly the same experience. We lived in Howard Beach, Queens when I was between 4 and 12, but my parents are both from Brooklyn (pa=Ocean Parkway and ma=Woodbine Street), making that borough a frequent destination. I remember my first visit to Jahn's too, and was more interested in the trains and the el than the ice cream.
Of course then we moved to Long Island, and it was Friendly's. Fortunately, my local Friendly's was adjacent to the LIRR, so while the players changed, the story remained the same :0)
I don't remember seeing Friendly's on Long Island until the late 1970's. The first time I ever went to Friendly's was in Connecticut, back in 1967. At that time it was a small chain, only in New England.
When I was a kid, I went to many a birthday party at the Jahn's in Rego Park on Queens Blvd. They had a big party room in the back. Now its a Chinese restaurant. Its the restaurant where someone was shot a few years ago while Congressman Gary Ackerman was eating there. (He should have gone to kosher Chinese restaurant on 108th Street!)
I know the there have been Friendly's on LI since at least the late 60's; the nearest one to my house was on Willis Ave. in Albertson.
Friendly's is now headquartered in Wilbraham, MA (there's a sign to this effect on the MA Turnpike a.k.a. I-90). But I remember going to Friendly's in Pittsfield, MA in the mid 60's when I was in summer camp.
Oy. Very off topic. How to get back on? Ah! I know! My other favorite Long Island restaurant was the Hamburger Choo-Choo, on Northern Blvd. in Huntington (this too was in the 60's/70's). You'd sit at the counter, and your order would be delivered by a Lionel train that ran in a loop from the grill to the counter.
Interesting, they had one like that years ago in Forest Hills on Austin Street. I don't remember how the food tasted, but I loved those trains. On they way back, we would watch the LIRR trains speed past the Forest Hills station. We lived close enought to walk, so we didn't take the subway.
I recall eating at one in the vicinity of Queens Plaza in the late 1960's. Not sure of the exact location though, but I remember that the other railfans and I were shooting pictures of the LIRR stuff from the bridge over the yard and walked to the place.
Todd, Unfortunately Hamburger Choo-Choo on Main Street (a/k/a Rte 25A at that point) in Huntington Village burned down in the late 70's. It was leveled and a Swenson's Ice Cream Parlor replaced it. They did keep an electric train running back and forth on a ledge as a remeberance. Swenson's failed and there was a series of restaurants there. Presently an Italian Trattoria is there.
I seem to remeber another "Choo-Choo" type place on the south side of Queens Blvd, east of 63rd Drive (almost directly across from Jahn's). I also think there might have been one on the 37th Avenue shopping strip in Jackson Heights.
I remember them fondly as they are a departure from the cookie cutter type chain eateries we have now.
The one in Forest Hills was on Austin Street. It closed down in the mid 1970's, I'm not sure what it is now. It was right neat the Elliot Shop, a boys/mens clothing store. Very few of the stores from the 1960's/70's remain on that strip. Austin Street has gone very upscale in recent year.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but up until the late '60's there was the Hamburger Express in Parkchester section of the Bronx. Ran a train around with your order on it. Real neat. Now in Manhattan is Ellen's Stardust cafe, (I think), with a mock R22 on the street corner. They to have trains running around.
Joe C
I would love to have an American Flyer train deliver my order, thank you very much. Funny thing, AC Gilbert never offered a dining car with their passenger sets. Lionel came out with one in their more recent Flyer offerings. They even went so far as to add a Vista Dome to their dining car and finish it in UP livery, so it matches the other cars in the Pony Express set.
We had a Friendly's open up in Pompton Plains, NJ when I was in high school, and there was one in Cheshire, CT when we moved there. Both are still there.
A number of years ago we (The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, NC) helped outfit a restaurant near Sanford, NC with a G-scale train setup that delivered cold beverages to the booths (the waitress would still bring the food and hot beverages). It used custom-built gondola cars that cradled up to four glasses securely and each car body was color-coded to match the table for which the beverages were destined. The bodies were construced in two main pieces - a metal frame with metal trucks and a drop-on plastic body that was removed after each use for washing. IIRC, the fellow who fabricated the frames built 48 of them, while about 200 bodies were obtained from a European source by the restaurant owner. There were two tracks on each side of the room, each track serving four or five booths. The trains serving booths 6-9 and 10-13 turned around and dropped to a hidden lower level inside decorative planters on either side of the door, while the trains serving booths 1-5 and 14-18 did the same under the coffee stations in the front corners of the room. The return loops merged under the coffee stations so there was only one track from that point back to the kitchen yards (again, one yard on each side of the kitchen - the loops did not connect from one side to another as this would have caused too much interference). The bodies were removed for washing as the train entered the kitchen, the train then climbed and turned back and entered the yard until it was next needed. Three tracks per side could accomodate an engine and two cars; one could handle an engine and three cars, for booths nine and ten, which seated six people each, and two were set up with an engine and one car. This allowed for a theoretical maximum of six trains per side to operate at one time, although the real maximum was four, simply governed by the speed at which a train could be set up, beverage glasses filled, etc. That was reached on one of the two occasions I was there after the restaurant opened but the kid handling the beverages had to be real quick and smooth to manage it. There were a fair amount of fancy electronics used to control the trains so that they stopped at the correct table and so that the empty trains merged safely on the hidden track. Motive power was the ubiquitous LGB 0-4-0T on the one and two car trains, while a larger LGB diesel hauled the three car trains.
Fire damaged the kitchen area of the restaurant about two years after it opened, and while most of the trains were not damaged the entire restaurant was damaged by smoke; in the rebuilding the train theme was dropped and the equipment removed. The gondolas were sold by the restaurant owner to someone planning a theme restaurant elsewhere and the track and heavily-used engines went to a fellow building a large garden railway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An interesting story. G scale does make sense, since its trains are larger. Flyer equipment may be just plain too small for such a setup.
I've seen photos of a place that did it with Lionel back in the early '50s, including food. The pictures didn't really show the cars - they were hidden under the plates - but the train was pulled by an A-A set of Santa Fe F-units. And it appeared, from the pictures, that a maximum of two oblong plates could be hauled by the trains. No beverages visible in those photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If my memory is correct the Hamburger Choo-Choo and places like it used the train to deliver the burgers and fries and not used at all for drinks because of the spiilage.
there is a diner on rt 22 in new jersey that has a set lgb's trains runing around the top of the small bar. the add car's for the differant seasons.
Don't know if this has been posted before in this thread since I just found it, but during the early 60's out in Huntington, Long Island there was a "Hamburger Choo Choo" on Main street. It was a long, deep and narrow luncheonette. There were flat cars that carried small plates with lunch orders, out and around the rectangular counter where customers sat. The train exited through the "kitchen portal" in the back of the room, would travel on the track around the counter and stop in front of you with your order
In fact, Ed, that's how this thread started! Glad there are others out there that remember the favorite restaurant of my youth on LI!
Ed, look back a few messages in this thread for one of my previous posts on the subject. Unfortunately a grease fire in the late 70's or early 80's destroyed the Choo-Choo and the building had to be knocked down. A Swenson's was built on the site and a reminder of the past had a train going back and forth on a high ledge. (No other Swenson's had one.). Swenson's went out of business and after a diner and other restaurants, it is now an Italian Trattoria.
Not necessarilly a new concept. In 1963 I moved into Glen Oaks, Queens. on 256th St & Union Tpke was an eatery called "The Hamburger Coach". Same basic setup. A rectangular counter with O gauge track around the entire length. A Lionel loco pulling several flatcars would deliver food (usually burgers) from the kitchen to the patrons.
<< My other favorite Long Island restaurant was the Hamburger Choo-Choo, on Northern Blvd. in Huntington (this too was in the 60's/70's). >>
WOW! Talk about a blast from the past! We used to eat there after shopping for new clothes at Marsh's Mens Shop right up the street.
Gee, we had one in Baltimore, called Hamburger Junction. You sat at the counter and a Lionel engine followed by 5 flatcars with 6" dinner plates bolted to them and the (obligatory) caboose brought your burger (s) to you.
It was (gone these many years) on Joppa Road just east of Harford Road in Carney. The location was across the street from the former terninal of the Carney line (abandoned 1936).
Somehow my parents found out about the Jahn's free ice cream sundae on your birthday business, and insisted on taking me there for my birthday. By then I had been there three or four times with classmates, so the novelty had worn off. I sure was embarrassed to have to walk in there with my parents, and tell them it was my birthday. IIRC, Jahn's never even asked me for proof, but it seems like the free sundae was an rather small one. The best part of that evening was the train ride from Crescent St to 121st St and return.
Now that definately has to be ice cream and transit together!
I'll bet you wished you could have ridden on a train of gate cars instead of BMT standards.
How very true. The gate cars were gone from the Jamaica line almost three years, by the time I made my first trip to Jahn's. I could still go down to the Myrtle Ave Line to ride them though, and I often did.
You've both got me beat! Gate cars and AB's beat me by a while.
My first visit there (Jahn's in Richmond Hill) was on a green fishbowl bus, though I do recall R-9s overhead, and still-new LIRR C420s.
BTW, I did ride the Q's (once) but missed the gate cars. Oh well, now they call the R-17's nostalgic (see the recent thread). Time marches on.......
There was an ice cream place in Sausilito (spelling?) that had phenomenal ice cream. I forget the name, but it was a very short walk from the ferry.
--Mark
Unfortunately with Tom Carvel tending the ice stand in the sky, the chain isn't the same. Tom and his wife were childless, hence no heir apparent. He sold the whole operation to an Arab investment bank. As with any business that is run by "suits" rather than a man up form the trenches, the bottom line and not product quality is paramount.
The one on Hillside was in the Herricks Shopping center on the northside of Hillside Ave, just east of Herricks Road. It has been gone for at least 15 years.
I remember the Jahn's on Fordham Road. Used to go there with my mother usually after report cards came out at Our Lady Of Angels. Usually had to beg Mom to go down to the Fordham Rd Station on the Harlem Division after eating all that ice cream!!! I remember Mom telling me one year that we couldnt go because the place had a fire, I believe it was sometime in the mid to late seventies
Answer to #2 Birthday?
Yes!!!
[I remember Garfield's too. I sometimes had lunch there when attending Erasmus Hall High School (Class of '70). BTW, actor Donny Most who played Ralph Malph on "Happy Days" is in my year book. Never met the guy, wonder what he's doing today ?]
According to the IMDb, he's had maybe 15 parts in movies and TV shows since Happy Days went off the air - mostly small parts in obscure movies. He's also had some TV guest appearances and director work. Basically, it looks like Happy Days was most definitely the peak of his career, and I suspect he's now doing some other line of work to make a living.
The next Tom Cruise, he ain't.
He was usually billed as Donald Most after his stint on Happy Days. Two of his lines I liked best were "You're such a Potsie!" and "Sit on it, Potsie!"
How many of you remember Mary Cadorette, who played John Ritter's live-in girlfriend on Three's a Crowd? She was at UConn at the same time I was, but I never met her.
[He was usually billed as Donald Most after his stint on Happy Days. Two of his lines I liked best were "You're such a Potsie!" and "Sit on it, Potsie!"
How many of you remember Mary Cadorette, who played John Ritter's live-in girlfriend on Three's a Crowd? She was at UConn at the same time I was, but I never met her.]
Donald/Donny Most and Mary Cadorette appeared in a movie together, 1987's _Stewardess School_ (which the IMDb recommends that one "avoid like the plague.") Ms. Cadorette's recent career has been been even more meager than "Ralph Malph's", which is saying quite a bit. I would imagine that she's making a living today away from the thespian world.
Say, when I lived on Winthrop Street in the 70's, there was a guy (in his thirties) who used to park his car in my folks driveway. We lived between Bedford and Rogers Ave. He said that he went to P.S. 92 with Donny Most. My mom was a teacher's aide there during the seventies (and was directly across the street from our house).
Our house had an interesting background in the Flatbush community. The previous owners were the Lupo family who owned a number of businesses on Nostrand Ave., among them a butcher's shop and one of the watering holes near Lincoln Rd. The house was unusual in that EVERY room had an air conditioner in it. Turns out that many members of the Lupo family suffered from asthma and that accounted for them.
Also, our property was one of the few that had a very large driveway/yard. Apparently there was supposed to have been another house built there. We were one of the few homes in that area with a grapevine (my grandmother made wine with it for a number of years) that many neighborhood folks would enjoy coming by and grabbing some handfulls.
BTW, anybody remember the Jahn's Ice Cream Parlor on Church Ave. that was around the corner from Erasmus Hall? That was a great hang-out for the Erasmians and Walt Whitman Junior High kids. I think it turned into a White Castles.
Doug aka BMTman
Gee, I went to Brooklyn Tech and although Juniors was a short walk away we had 2 eateries across from the school. Can't remember their names though.... Can anyone help out. (Memory is the first to go)
No Steve...memory is the second thing to go. I just forgot what the first is.
My favorite "eatery" in Brooklyn was at 31 Ocean Parkway. Grandma's house. The grandparents lived there over 50 years! (Back on topic) When I was a teenager I loved to take solo trips there from Long Island via LIRR to Penn or Brooklyn then the BMT.
My aunt and uncle & cousins lived on Ocean Avenue between Lincoln Place and Parkside Avenue. Their building fronted Prospect park and their back window overlooked the Brighton line. My grandparents lived on Parkside - east of Flatbush, about a block and a half from the Brighton train. I lived on Dumont Avenue and could see the Livonia train on the other side of the park. Ever wonder why we left such great neighborhoods?
Well, part of the fact is that drugs and crime started to creep into neighborhoods that traditionally never had major social problems. Then there was the idea that once you became more economically secure -- found the "American Dream" and had at least two or three kids -- the norm was to find a house with property and a "two car" garage. The more to the burb's for alot of city dwellers was a natural progression once the jobs and/or housing costs warranted it.
Doug aka BMTman
Just about finished the book by Allen Abel, FLATBUSH ODYSSEY a JOURNEY THRU THE HEART OF BROOKLYN It is ashamed on what happend to Flatbush the last 20 years. Garfields, Lowes Kings, Macy s the whole Street is a Drug Shooting Galary North of Ave I. 300 years to build it up and 20 to tear it down.
[Just about finished the book by Allen Abel, FLATBUSH ODYSSEY a JOURNEY THRU THE HEART OF BROOKLYN It is ashamed on what happend to Flatbush the last 20 years. Garfields, Lowes Kings, Macy s the whole Street is a Drug Shooting Galary North of Ave I. 300 years to build it up and 20 to tear it down.]
I enjoyed the book myself, but there are a couple of things to keep in mind. Allen Abel's exploration of Flatbush Avenue took place in the spring of 1993. That was, of course, near the peak of the city's most recent crime wave, and the book is full of observations about crime and a sense of menace. Things surely have quieted down considerably since then. Another recurring theme in the book is the atmosphere of economic decline and decay that was so visible. I don't know if economic conditions have improved significantly since 1993, but at the very least they certainly haven't gotten any worse.
Finally, I got the sense from reading the book that Allen Abel's dim opinion of Flatbush arose in large part from the way he compared it to the "golden age" of his youth. I would imagine that someone travelling down Flatbush Avenue for the first time, with no preconceived notions of what it used to be like, might not come away with such a negative impression.
Right. Everyone waxes nostalgic about the neighborhood of their youth, and I'm sure Mr. Abel's observations would apply to most any neighborhoods in urban America these days ('my neighborhood was great in the good 'ol days').
BTW, the low-point of Flatbush, IMHO, was the late '70s when drug use and graffiti were running rampant. Also, during the mid 80's the area saw an influx of people from Caribbean countries who brought their industrious and colorful spirit of entreprenuralship into Flatbush, thus turning around the decay and dilapidated look that Flatbush Avenue had in the years just after the horrific blackout destruction of 1977.
I lived in Flatbush during that whole period so I can speak with some authority on this (I moved to Flatlands/Brooklyn College area in 1986).
Doug aka BMTman
I do not think White Castle is there anymore......
3TM
What about Lundy's, supposedly one of the greatest sea food restaurants in the world. I heard they might get back in business. Is their anything to that rumor? While I'm at it, what about Peter Lugar's steak house. As a kid I remember people calling that place the Beethoven of Beef. Is that place still around? If (when) I get back to New York for the Stillwell tour, I want to eat at those places if they still exist. I'm not much of a steak eater, maybe one a month, but I can eat sea food until the cows come home. If Lundy's is back in business, you will find me there.
Yes, there is something to that rumor. If you're in 1995, then their serious talk about reopening it. Since we're in 2000 there isn't any talk of reopening it now. Hard to reopen something that's already open.
That was an ingenius way to tell me I'm way behind the times. I was in New York last summer and ask a few people about Lundy's and they acted as if they never heard of the place. Well now I know but since you were sarcastic about it, if we meet there you'll have to pay for your own meal.
I wasn't really being sarcastic, I was working indirectly. You asked if there are plans, and I said there would have been, had it been 1995, and there are no plans now, for obvious reasons.
[What about Lundy's, supposedly one of the greatest sea food restaurants in the world. I heard they might get back in business.
Is their anything to that rumor? While I'm at it, what about Peter Lugar's steak house. As a kid I remember people calling that place the Beethoven of Beef. Is that place still around? If (when) I get back to New York for the Stillwell tour, I want to eat at those places if they still exist.]
As noted elsewhere, Lundy's has reopened. Supposedly it's better than it was before, although I can't say for sure as I've never been there. Peter Luger's is still going strong. Just be sure to bring money, lots of money.
(Peter Luger's is still going strong. Just be sure to bring money, lots of money.)
Also don't bring a credit card (except P.Luger's own card) or you will be washing dishes. By the way, besides the famous Williamsburg site, Peter Luger's also has a branch in Great Neck on Northern Blvd near Leonards.
I was there for Valentine's day weekend with the wife in 1998 (a couple of months after they reopened). My other half couldn't stop staring at the booths across from us. It was like a scene out of "Good Fellas". Guys were kissing rings of older gentlemen and all of that stuff. If you want a front row to "The Sopranos" go there on a Saturday night. I'm not kidding.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: That is very interesting and entertaining to watch, no doubt--------unless you happen to be an Italian-American and have to explain to people that scum like that does not represent the vast majority of Italian-Americans. If that is what I would see at Peter Luger's, then I'll pass on that. I have never watched the Sopranos either,and won't. One reason Italian-Americans liked Reagan so much was that he used IA's to go after the Mafia, and that's when we started to put those bums away. So Lundy's yes, Peter Luger's no.
As long as we're talking about cafeterias when I was going to college in '72 I started driving a medallion cab to help pay for it. I quickly found out the NYC cabbies hangout was the Belmore Cafeteria at 28th & Park Av S. I used to always have breakfast there and if I was in the area at lunchtime, lunch too. If I recall correctly they had a pay system like Katz's Deli. You entered via a turnstile, got a ticket which the servers either punched or wrote the price on and paid upon exit. It was always very crowded and everyone was wearing a coin changer on their belt!!!
Another cafeteria I loved as a kid was the Jerome Cafeteria on River Av opposite Yankee Stadium. I think its a Burger King now. I once went in there for breakfast and saw a young Bobby Murcer sitting eating alone. I joined him and had a nice conversation. It was a thrill.
By the way, as a kid my aunt and uncle lived on Kings Hway near the Brighton (and still do) and my uncle used to always take me to Dubrows.
By the way, although I was never there, wasn't there a Dubrows on Kings Hway at E98 St right next to the IRT el??? I also remember one in Manhattan, but I couldn't see going there with the Automat all over the borough.
The other Dubrows were on Eastern Parkway and Utica Ave, 7th Ave and 38th St and Lincoln Road in Miami Beach. Lunch time here in Hawaii
I had lunch at the Belmore Cafeteria back in 1969 (May 24 1969) on one of my trips with my Dad (the one where we rode the mixed Steinway and 1938 stock WF Lo-Vs up the 3rd Avenue El). The cheeseburger was terrific but dessert - a slice of banana cream pie - tasted of soap and was obviously spoiled. BHLECCCHH!! One mouthful was enough! They were nice about it - I traded it for a piece of blueberry pie, which was fine. The manager himself came out and rectified the situation.
Wayne
My did used to take me to Bickfords in Times Square when we were in the neighborhood. I remember they had seltzer by the water fountains. And yess the Automate. Someone once told me that where you find a Burger King in Midtown and Downtown Manhatten, it once was the Automatic, and Horn and Hardock ownes the NY Franchises of BK
Not actually cafeterias but within spitting distance of the Brighton Line's Sheepshead Bay station were two of the greatest eateries known to mankind.
Bay Pizzeria had some of the best pizza in Brooklyn. Lest you think that this is mere neighborhood chauvinism from a long time Bay resident, I offer in my defense the fact that when the urge for a square slice came over me I would take the Brighton line to Kings Highway which had superior squares. Alas Bay Pizzeria sold to some young know it all who spent money on renovating the joint to make it look like a fancy Manhattan restaurant. Trustworthy sources inform me that cheaper ingredients are now used for the pies. Instead of just making plain pies they make a jillion different varieties, with all of them standing under the counter for hours. In the old days a fresh pie would come out of the oven every 5 minutes or so. The new pizza isn't bad. Maybe 70-75% as good as the old stuff was. Just average instead of the best. Used to do great business. Constant rush of people from off the trains. Now their reputation has resulted in less throngs. This was a gold mine that the new owner couldn't just let be. Perfect location ain't squat if you don't have perfect ingredients.
Right across from the pizzeria was the good old bagel store. Excellent NY bagels. Wasn't as famous as that Manhattan place that the Redford's et al habituate for their bagel fixes, but the bagels were just as good if not better. My father would get a bunch every Sunday morning before I woke up. When I did wake up it was to the smell of fresh warm bagels, lox, creamed herring etc. The store owners sold out about 5 years ago. The new bagels weren't as good as before. In a short span of time, that corner which had hosted some of the finest food memories, had lost its meaning. Egg Creams had left the neighborhood counters decades earlier, but they too had been part of a once wonderous mix.
As for the bagel store building itself, it was quite ancient. I have pictures of the Brighton Line from as early as 1903 which show the structure. Back then it was Scheussler's Hotel, later the Adelphi Hotel. The Robinson Atlas of 1890 shows that area as being owned by Caspar Scheussler with a hotel on the site. Maybe this was the same building. Anyway the building was torn down a few months ago. Sad to see this constant part of Bay history gone for ever.
Alan Glick
Paul, did you go to Madison. I did, I was born and raised on K.H. and E 23rd St
Actor Martin Landau went to Madison. He mentioned in one of those books about Brooklyn that he lived on Bedford Ave. near Ave. L and as a kid did volunteer work for the Civil Defense, riding his bike to hand out defense drill pamphlets at various locations.
Doug aka BMTman
Another Madison Alumni Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Frank Torre(Joes brother) of the Braves, Cal Abrams Bklyn Dodgers, Arthur Miller went to Madison and Lincoln. Anyone else? Matt Gallente Coach of Houston Astros.
And Joe Torre was also a Giants fan. What gives? I knew some Yankee fans in Brooklyn because of all their Italian ballplayers, but now Giant fans are coming out of the woodwork. YUK!!!!!
Martin Landau was a New York Giants fan. Imagine that? A Broklyn boy rooting for the Giants. I heard him on TV say that he was at an audition on October 3, 1951 when Bobby Thomson hit that historic homerun that broke our hearts. It was a great day for him because he got the part and his team won. It was a rotten day for the rest of us and I have disliked him ever since.
Dubrow's has been closed for about 30 years, as is almost every other cafeteria in the city.
are there any cafeteria s left in NY. Any body in LA know if Cliftons is still there. I am looking forward to Vegas next week their best cafeterias are their buffets. There I go talking about food again, must be supper time here in Hawaii
YES !!! CLIFTONS CAFETERIA IS STILL DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES IN THE SAME PLACE !!!!
now i dont know if the cusine is still as good as it was when i was a child back in the 1950s !!!
Willie All Retaraunt (spelling) food taste better when we were kids, they as adults. We did not know better, and eating out then was a treat.
"Come along without, come along within
You've not seen nothing like the Mighty Quinn..."*
Ah yes, "The Mighty Quinn". That's a great analogy for our Mighty Brighton Express - I jump for joy myself every time I ride one.
And their A/C is second only to that of the R32, making it a very comfortable summer ride. Those seats - that's another story. But I don't care - I'm always standing, riding up front.
"The Mighty Quinn (Quinn The Eskimo)" by Bob Dylan
(C) 1967 Dwarf Music Co. Inc. ASCAP All Rights Reserved
01/23/2000
Of course that song was brought to life by Manfred Mann offically titled "Mighty Quinn" (Quinn The Eskimo). Released 3/09/68 on Mercury #72770, was on the charts for 10 weeks but only reached #10 on the charts.
Bill Newkirk
01/23/2000
Right here #1 Brighton Exp.Bob! With my "handle" of NEWKIRK, I don't mean that other station of the Nostrand Ave. subway!
BILL NEWKIRK
People using the the Broadway BMT were used to transferring to get to midtown. Brighton line riders weren't. If you looked at the places where people who rode the old Bway BMT worked, youd notice a larger percentage of them working in lower Manhattan than many other lines. I think this may be one of the reasons why the KK/K was so underused.
You don't want long routes, if you can avoid them. The standard deviation of running time varies as the square root of the length. The length between Jamaica and CI is approximately twice that between Jamaica and Broad St or Chambers St and CI. This means that trains reaching Jamaica from CI had a 40% increase in runtime deviation than when they ran from Broad St. The same effect is in evidence at Coney Island between QJ service and the old Nassau St specials.
Jamaica-Bway-WB-6th Ave service would have succeded, if it had been express from Jamaica. The plan had been to add the 3rd track from Jamaica to Bway-Jct. This would have provided equivalent service to the E/F from Jamaica in terms of time. The 3rd track was never installed and the KK was a local. It never received patronage and was doomed.
Where did the KK terminate from In Brooklyn/Queens? I thought it started at Atlantic Ave or Bdwy E NY?
KK Trains ended its run in Queens [168 st.Jamaica]and Brooklyn[Eastern Parkway]with SOME train beginning at Atlantic Av,because of being placed on the old pitkin ave el during lay ups.
The original KK ran all the way to 168th St from it's beginning (Juy 1968) to 1972, when it was cut back to Atlantic Ave/Eastern Pkwy. It was finally finished off in 1976.
Speaking of old routes:
Well for all the reasons the short lived NX was terminated, I still want it brought back just so I can ride it on a slant 40 TOO!!!
Wait for a time that trackwork is being done on the N and they are diverted down the express track. You'll be disappointed, with the new signals, speed is really restricted.
The QJ was flawed from the beginning. With no direct local service to midtown, it left the Brighton line underserved and it overcrowded the D. Imagine if the Queens Blvd. IND had only the G, plus a few rush hour R trains running local. That, in a nutshell, was how the Brighton local was served.
The QB line should have been made the all-day Brighton local. The Nassau St line should have been diverted elsewhere, maybe down the old Culver line.
The QJ might have been "quite a run", but it was a run to nowhere.
Actually the QB should have been the QT. Brighton people always had a direct downtown conection during weekdays. and only after 1955 did Queens Blvd have direct local service weekdays to Manhatten when the connection to 61 st tunnel was built, before that they always changed to a E or F
Yes! Either keep the QT, or run the QJ as the less important local.
People still need to get downtown. Two midtown services almost duplicating one another is not good.
Midtown is still a much more desirable destination than lower Manhattan, especially today. Outside of rush hours, Brighton service to lower Manhattan isn't really necessary.
Take the M off of the West End line and bring back the "Banker's specials".
Exactly! The QB should have been the main service, with the QJ the cheap one way service.
The thought just came into my twisted mind (well I did down a few brews after work -- hic!).
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
be shure mr BMT man that you dont DRINK AND DRIVE ( use the subway ) !!!
Unfortunately, I do drink and drive!
I keep the left hand on the wheel and the right hand on the bottle (of Mountain Dew).
:-)
I'm quite capable of doing both at the same time -- thank you very much!
Doug aka (hic!) BMTman
And you are using your CARFAN window at the time??
Are any subtalkers good friends of, or at least know, a real life NIMBY, which I define as a person opposed to any new mass transit in their neighborhoods?
What is their motive? Racism? Fear their property will lose value?
Strange, but areas in Long island with easy access to New York City are generally *more* expensive to live in, and harder to get into (ie. Great Neck, Manhasset, Port W)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes I know some real life NIMBYs. They are opposed to change.
Allow new stores to open? That's just screw up the old stores, they are good enough.
New transit service? It's fine the way it is. It will just attract more people to live here, and it will get more crowded.
Internet? They don't have it.
They generally have a pessimistic view of the future, and believe the quality of their own lives in NYC is protected by a veneer of stability that, if it is cracked, will cause their world to resume slipping down the path of inevitable decline. Life to the NIMBY is like staying on water through surface tension -- if it moves, it drowns.
It's race, its class, its snob appeal, it's any number of things depending on who it is. But the over-riding outlook is that the future will be the same as the past, or worse.
["Yes I know some real life NIMBYs. They are opposed to change. Allow new stores to open? That's just screw up the old stores, they are good enough. New transit service? It's fine the way it is. It will just attract more people to live here, and it will get more crowded. Internet? They don't have it."]
From some postings on this board, we could add to that list:
"OPTO? New York City has always had conductors!"
"Cab signaling? It's too new (read: it hasn't existed before **on the New York City transit system**) to risk a cent of public money to give it a try."
"R-142s? Let's scrap them as soon as they arrive and replace them with Hi-Vs! Who cares that motormen will get fried in accidents? All that matters is that old cars have RAILFAN WINDOWS!"
["But the over-riding outlook is that the future will be the same as the past, or worse."]
Therein lies the rich irony. Fans of rail and transit tend to have feelings about NIMBYs that start at pity and get worse from there. :^) Yet there is a faction amongst railfans, with representatives on this board, that subscribes to a similar philosophy: new rail cars, new signaling systems, new operational methods, etc. are suspect at best and are to be opposed **because they are new**.
Please note that I am NOT condemning people who EXAMINE proposed innovations and come to the conclusion after logical analysis that they don't confer a benefit relative to reasonable and consistent projections of the cost. (This proviso applies especially to the debate over OPTO, which is a complex issue.) I'm talking about people approaching proposed changes with a STRONG bias against them from the get-go *for the very reason* that they are changes.
You know John Bredin, Esq. that attorneys get rich on NIMBY's opposing change through them sueing others. And the defendents need attorneys. So, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I don't necessary mean you but any attorney involved in these cases. It's a super money maker.
"You know John Bredin, Esq. that attorneys get rich on NIMBY's opposing change through them sueing others. And the defendents need attorneys. So, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I don't necessary mean you but any attorney involved in these cases. It's a super money maker."
So, though I'm a citizen and a daily rail passenger, I shouldn't throw my tuppence worth in on this subject because I'm a lawyer and **some** lawyers are making money representing NIMBYs??? This is one of my biggest pet peeves: attorneys are presumed by some to act as one unified group on political and policy questions. HAH! As anyone who's been to law school can tell you, attorneys are an inherently contentious lot -- I admit that I often will take up the "devil's advocate" or "underdog" side of an argument just because it's there.
If you think about it, the idea that all attorneys everywhere share the same political and policy views because some of them profit in their business from a particular policy is patently absurd. You would hardly expect prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys to argue with a unified position for the courts to adopt a particular rule of criminal law! Bankruptcy attorneys wouldn't have an interest *as lawyers* about an effort by environmental attorneys to amend the Clean Air Act, and environmental lawyers wouldn't have a unified viewpoint regarding estate planning lawyers who were urging judges to interpret the Probate Act in a certain way.
The argument that really boils my blood is that attorneys in a particular area of law will push with a unified front for a particular law or interpretation, even though some of the attorneys represent only or mainly plaintiffs (or the People, or employees, etc.) while others represent only or mainly defendants (or employers, etc.), because they all make their livelihood from it. The argument is typcially heard something like: "Tort reform will never happen, because both sides in a lawsuit have an attorney, and thus even defendant's attorneys are profiting off of frivolous lawsuits." The reason this chaps my hide is because it's a position that:
1) presumes collusion and dishonesty of the highest order -- that a defendant's attorney will act directly against his client's interest in order to profit the "brotherhood of lawyers" -- without any real proof.
2) cannot be responded to, defended against, or disproven. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position: if I take only plaintiff's cases, I'm anti-tort-reform, but if I take only defendant's cases in tort suits, I must be anti-tort-reform too! There's nothing a pro-tort-reform defendant's attorney could say or do to prove to the people who presume he's "in bed" with the plaintiffs' lawyers that he's really pro-tort-reform, so long as he makes his income from tort cases.
Or, to bring it back to the issue at hand, I've heard the argument (including from people on this board) that even the attorneys who defend companies and government agencies against NIMBY suits must actually be favoring and supporting NIMBYs because they make their living off of NIMBY suits as much as the NIMBYs' own lawyers do. AAAARGH!!!! So if I as an attorney (and railfan) were to take up the case of LIRR in a NIMBY lawsuit that was attempting to block one of LIRR's capital improvement, I must actually be pro-NIMBY! It couldn't **possibly** be because I despise and oppose NIMBYs too?!?! Short of not taking the case -- which would result in the patent absurdity that I can best prove that I support the LIRR's position by NOT defending that position -- I could only prove my anti-NIMBY "purity" by doing the case for free! The bank and the automobile finance company wouldn't be too happy about that. (^;
Sorry about that. Rant mode [OFF]. (^:
John, it was very well written. I enjoyed it and will show it my wife tonight. That is true of Plaintiff's Attorney being in bed with the Defendent's Attorney. I had an incident similar to this. My attorney was over powered and overwhelmed by the defendent's attorney. However, I won the case out of court. It's an expensive game of playing chicken. Who is the weekest, who will wear down first and who's money will run out first. I would rather bet my money in Las Vegas or Atlantic City. At least it will be fun and not be aggravating.
(Game of chicken -- whose money will run out first)
To tell the truth, I've been thinking about this. True, lawywers have many points of view, and many have no point of view and will represent the interests of any plaintiff.
But lawywers do have a collective interest in one thing: longer and more complicated cases. Here is an area where I think lawywers and judges are allowing the legal system to create injustice -- delay. Maybe its because no amount of motions and no amount of discovery is too much if it leads to the "truth." And maybe because longer and more complicated cases mean more money for lawyers.
Delay is at the heart of successful NIMBY law. You don't have to win to win, and most NIMBY cases don't win. You just have to stall until the unique combination of economic and political circumstances that make a project possible fall apart. The goal is to stall, and the legal system allows it. We see it all the time.
Its not just NIMBY. Delays allow insurance companies to avoid paying money due, and make policyholders settle for less, by stalling, and plaintiffs to extort money they don't deserve from insurance companeis by threating costly and time consuming litigation. Delays force poor defendants who can't afford bail to sit in jail for months, or years, before being found innocent, and rich defendents to stay out on bail for years and hide assets even though they are guilty.
Delay does seem to be a professional blindspot for the legal-judicial profession as a whole. If NIMBY lawsuits were settled in four months, they would never, ever succeed in blocking an important public improvement.
>>>>Delay is at the heart of successful NIMBY law. You don't have to win to win, and most NIMBY
cases don't win. You just have to stall until the unique combination of economic and political
circumstances that make a project possible fall apart. The goal is to stall, and the legal system allows
it. We see it all the time. <<<
I see a news item that said that a coalition led by Marcy Benstock (who stopped the Westway project) and Rep. Jerry Nadler are trying to stall the West Side improvement project, that would put parkland along the old Miller Highway site on the Hudson.
Westway may have been too ambitious a project, but why would Benstock and Nadler want to perpetuate the rubble-strewn abandoned piers that dominate this site now?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Apparantly, they want to return the entire shoreline to its "natural" state -- meaning, I guess, before there were any piers or concrete embankments along the edge. Unfortunately, I think Elvis left the building on that idea about 140 years ago.
It's also a shame that Central Park had to be molded into it's shape. They should have left it in it's original natural state.
It's also a shame that Central Park had to be molded into it's shape. They should have left it in it's original natural state.
I understand that it wasn't all that attractive in it's natural state, with rocky outcroppings and barren areas--not to mention the squatter's shacks. Of course, it would be great to be able to see what Manhattan looked like before its natural form was bulldozed into oblivion, but that doesn't mean that landscape would be suitable for recreation, which is a large part of the park's purpose.
Someone once said that as much people as people say they like nature, they would rather have a growing park than a speading wilderness. That's why we have landscape architects.
I was being sarcastic (from now on, I will use the <sarcasm> HTML tag), but your post is still a good one.
Also, since after my punishment of being reincarnated as a post-it note, I haven't changed my harsh ways, I won't be becoming a human again anytime soon unless I make amends.
For everyone on SubTalk that I've treated harshly I apologize, especially to the following:
Mr. Willie
The R-33 Single
I also apologize for using the wrong thread for this.
I didn't realize that was you (and I DO know who you are/were).
It's just that there has been SO MUCH bickering and squabbling out here lately that I just blew by brake hose and refused to charge up (I guess you might call me #4191).
Genovese makes flourescent post-it notes in four colors - green, orange, pink and red. I use them as attention-getters at work.
Green: For Your Information/Project completed
Orange: A Question
Pink: Minor crisis/major question or roadblock
Red: MAJOR crisis/fire/explosion/derailment/collision
Wayne
You really thing ol' Fred Olmstead screwed that one up? What I think they should have left is the parkland between 80th and 85th Street that the Metropolitan Museum of Art gobbled up over a 20 year period.
The Met space is a relatively small part of the park. It is not that obtrusive.
But they could have built vertically in their 1970s additions (I don't think any of the new buildings are more than two stories tall) and then they wouldn't have had to return for another land grab in the early 1980s.
we have the same problem here THE NOT IN MY BACKYARD etc...... you know the rest !!!
it seems that THE LONG BEACH 710 FREEWAY ( look it up on a freeway map of los angeles county )
has the distinction of THIS SAME NIMBY PROBLEM ... they are too good to have a expressway through
south pasadena california !!!! pasadna even GLENDALE has freeways-expressways but these rich upper elite
right wing white folk NIMBY types have the BRAIN OF A NIMBY when it comes to having a
freeway and expressway-freeway thru thier ugly unecessay good for nothing town !!!
THEY EVEN USE THIS SAME BRAIN OF A NIMBY TO DELAY THE PASADENA BLUE LINE CONSTRUCTION !!
There are two sides to every question and they both have counsel.
That is a BEAUTIFUL post. I hope that one day someone can stick me to the wall of an automated R-142.
You obviously never sued someone. If you like aggravation, pain, stress and torture you will hire an attorney and sue someone or a company.
Umm, click through the "in response to"s and you'll see that our little canary-yellow sticky friend (^: is not complementing my defense-of-attorneys message, but my first posting where I was equating extreme anti-change railfans with NIMBYs because they both presume change will always be bad.
[re NIMBY fears]
[From some postings on this board, we could add to that list:
"OPTO? New York City has always had conductors!"
"Cab signaling? It's too new (read: it hasn't existed before **on the New York City transit system**) to risk a cent of public money to give it a try."
"R-142s? Let's scrap them as soon as they arrive and replace them with Hi-Vs! Who cares that motormen will get fried in accidents? All that matters is that old cars have RAILFAN WINDOWS!"]
You may not realize this, being out there in Chicago, but New Yorkers tend to be afraid of the future and of "progress," however that's defined. It's not anything specific to transit. Actually, on second thought, it may not be a cowardly fear of the future as much as it is mostalgia for an idealized view of the past. There seems to be a sort of consensus that NYC went through a "golden age" in the 1950s. According to this viewpoint, back in those years the city was safe, well-mannered, clean and prosperous, with few challengers from other cities to its economic and cultural supermacy. Now, there's nothing wrong with nostalgia _per se_ (although I highly doubt the 1950s were quite as golden as now thought), but among too many New Yorkers, it's been translated into childish opposition to anything new. And the city's that much worse off for this attitude.
Although it is the sheerest AGONY for me to do so, I am compelled to say something that's maybe/sorta/somewhat in support of NIMBYs. It applies only to NIMBYs in New York who oppose public-works projects including transit.
Any major construction project is going to involve some disruption and discomfort in the surrounding area. It might be that neighbors are willing to put up with a few months of disruption for a worthwhile project. There'll of course be some opponents, but in an ideal world there won't be enough opposition to throw a monkey wrench into the plans. It's also obvious that the longer the project, and hence the longer the period of disruption, the greater the NIMBY opposition. The problem with NYC is the fact that everyone knows full well that any public-works project is going to drag on for an eternity, regardless of the time estimates. This quite naturally reduces everyone's tolerance for the projects and brings the NIMBYs out of the woodwork.
For instance, let's say you lived in LaCrosse, Wisconsin, and the city said that they were going to build a new elementary school on the vacant lot next door. You wouldn't appreciate the noise, truck traffic and dust that would accompany the construction work, but quite likely you'd tell yourself that it would be only maybe six to nine months, then the work would be done. Most people probably could live with that.
But let's shift the example and say that you live in NYC, and the city proposes building a new elementary school next door. You would know from experience that it can take the city 14 years to build a school (LaGuardia H.S. for the Performing Arts on the Upper West Side, begun c.1973, completed c. 1987). Would you *really* be as tolerant as your Cheesehead counterpart? I didn't think so.
I understand what you're talking about -- the people living at 63rd and Lex had a long, long wait for the MTA to finish their work there -- but just saying "don't build anything" because of the delays means nothing new will ever be constructed.
The best way to handle that would be to vote the politicians out of office in your district, and vote against the ones in the city- and state-wide races, if a public works project takes five or 10 years longer than planned.
(If projects last too long, vote out the politicians in your district).
Mr. Lee, where do you live? In New York City, except for the Mayor and Governor, there is only ONE choice on the ballot when an incumbent is running. That is certainly true in the state legislature, and most of the rules that make everything take forever are state rules.
Your comments are only applicable in a democracy.
Admittedly, lots of down-ballot elections in New York are either uncontested races or ones where the opposition candidate (usually Republican) doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. But there can be primary election challenges (that's how Koch got his start against Carmen DeSappio), and since the governor's office has so much influence over NYC transit since Rocky's creation of the MTA, in a close race an incombent governor who did drag his feet over, say, the latest Second Ave. proposal could have his feet held to the fire by voters in NYC, if it might effect the outcome.
There's no such thing.
NIMBY's have brains? I didn't know this ...
Something has to control their motor functions. but, OTOH, the cognitive and reasoning functions are inoperative.
You're being too narrow in defining NIMBYs as those who don't want a new mass transit line in their neighborhood. There may be a generic name for such people, but it isn't NIMBY (although those people may also be NIMBYs).
A NIMBY is afraid of any kind of change. People who don't want a McDonald's in their city neighborhood may have good personal reasons, but instead give lofty explanations about beef raised in former rain forests in Brazil or exploitation of low-paid workers or that the local greasy spoon run by the kindly old man will be forced out of business, but essentially they're suspicious of change. They just dress up their resistance in whatever language they think will do the trick.
Why? Experience in the second half of the twentieth century shows that change is often not for the better, and once it occurs, it can't be turned back. Especially when its change promoted by the government, such as roads, transit, or social service facilities. They're used to the fact that the bureaucrats lie and lie and lie when they say there'll be no negative impact, and then, when the negative impact does come, the response is "Sorry about that." If you're lucky.
About a decade ago, the city wanted to open a congregate home for children in the foster care system. The neighbors opposed this and they were told that this was to be a home for children of preschool age. Opponents were made to look and feel like anti-child monsters and the home opened. For six months, the home housed pre-schoolers only, then suddenly it began to include teenagers, who behaved like teenagers, and also had teenage friends coming to visit. The neighbors complained to the city that they were promised pre-schoolers only. The city just responded that they couldn't guarantee that and the city needed the space for the teenagers. If the neighbors had been more effective NIMBYs, they never would have been in the position of the city just saying "F*** Y***, sucker."
So when people have an opportunity to dig their heels in and resist change, they do so.
Well said, Paul. A Nimby is just someone who wants to protect his interests. The definition of NIMBY is Not In My BackYard. He may be for a new train line but does not want the noise or lowered property values.
To all of you who knock NIMBYs: Lets say you just paid alot of money for a house for you and your family to live in. Its in a nice, quiet residential area with no commercial nearby. Your kids can play anywhere near your house. Would you want them to build a new gas station or 24hr. fast food place right next door???? If you answered no you are a NIMBY, whether like it or not!!!!!
>>>Lets say you just paid alot of money for a house for you and
your family to live in. Its in a nice, quiet residential area with no commercial nearby. Your kids can
play anywhere near your house. Would you want them to build a new gas station or 24hr. fast food
place right next door???? <<<
Actually, if there's nowhere to get a quart of milk at 9PM, I kind of WOULD like 'em to put a 711 nearby. Of course, I don't drive.
Yeah, but not next door. All 7-11's turn into teenage hangouts at night.
All 7-11's turn into teenage hangouts at night.
Not all. Some managements are better at keeping their properties lit and clear of hanger-outers than others. However, even so, Friday and Saturday nights can be a caution. Like with the kid who "forgets" to turn off his booming radio when he goes in to buy his brewskis.
However, Kevin has hit on an important point on why NIMBYs exist. 7-11s are often on a major street cheek and jowl with residences. How much misery is it fair for the resident next door to bear so the resident two blocks away is able to walk over to get a quart of milk?
(Jeff has hit on a major reason why NIMBYs exist)
What people really want to keep out are those of different races, ages, social classes, or income backgrounds. But you can't pass a law that does that directly. So free-floating fear and dislike looks for an outlet.
In the NY area, anything new can be associated -- in the minds of the nasty noisy people who get the ink on these issues -- with THOSE PEOPLE. The bigotry goes in all directions. Just go to a Black neighborhood fearing getrification and start a rumour that Starbucks is looking at the area. The reverse is obvious. Everyone wants to keep out teens. Etc.
Is this what most people are like. NO. But it IS what most people who show up at public meetings are like.
NIMBY is one of the great "conservative" "Republican" hypocracies that can be used to torture them if you know how. After being lectured on the virtues of the free market, just remark that a property owners should have the right to cut their house into two or three apartments and rent them out. Watch the philosophical gymnastics.
With NIMBY's sometimes it is stupidity. The historian in the village
of Bronxville in Westchester County used this rationale in her
arguement against MTA Metro North's proposal to build a third track
through the village: An additional track would cut the village in
half.
There are two tracks there already and have been for 150 years, and they don't cut the village in half. Enough of this nonsense. Get
real.
Greetings, all...
I'm working on several new additions to my newly-renovated website, The Nth Ward, and I need your help for one of them. Here's the description from my website of what I'm putting together:
Does your idea of a fine Italian meal involve of a trip over to your local Olive Garden? Do you sit in traffic for three hours a day and curse the congestion even though there's a commuter rail stop five minutes away from your house? Do your kids listen to gangsta rap music even though they've never met an actual black person? If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then you may be suffering from Provincial Insular Suburban Syndrome, or PISS for short. This page will give you a thorough examination and prescribe a treatment plan for all the PISS that ails you."
What I have in mind is a series of 20 multiple-choice questions, and depending on respondents' answers, they would be directed to one of four pages that makes a diagnosis and outlines a treatment plan. Here's an example:
You live in DuPage County, and a Boeing 747 passes twenty feet over the roof of your house on its way to O'Hare. What's the first thought that goes through your mind?
I knew the airport was nearby when I first bought this house, so I fully accept the consequences of my decision to live here.
The noise is annoying, but I do a lot of traveling and I'm willing to accept some of the drawbacks of having the airport this convenient to me.
I'm completely deaf, so it doesn't bother me one bit.
This is ridiculous. I haven't been able to get a decent night's sleep since I bought this house. I'm going to call my lawyer.
You get the idea, so here's what I'm looking for:
1) More ideas for questions. I've got a few more already drawn up, but since most of the people here obviously have a strong appreciation of city life, I'd thought I'd open this up and see what other ideas are out there. The more creative and humorous, the better... This is supposed to be a fun thing. The questions don't neccesarily need to be transit-related, nor specific to Chicago or any other city.
2) I need some sort of a simple CGI script to handle the scoring. Here's how the scoring would work:
For each of the 20 questions, there would be four possible choices. Each choice would have a point score assigned to it, numbered 0, 2, 3, and 5. This means that a person's score for the entire test would range from 0 to 100. Depending on how they rank, they'd be redirected to one of four web pages. Persons scoring between 0 and 25 would be sent to page A, 26-50 goes to page B, etc.
If anybody here knows a lot about CGI scripts and would be able to write something like this, or at least direct me to where I could find something like this for download on the web, then I'd be forever grateful to you.
I can't afford to pay anybody for any contributions because I'm about to be evicted from my cardboard box on Lower Wacker Drive as it is. However, I'd happily give you credit on the website. E-mail submissions or questions to me at DavidCole@NthWard.com.
Even if you can't contribute, feel free to browse around The Nth Ward anyway and let me know what you think. Be sure to stop at the Graffiti Wall and leave your mark.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
What if R142 fail the test????? Do they cancel all the order for R142/142A & look for another company to build subway cars or Redbirds can stay 10 or 15 more years?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
ME NO KNOW
Good response, I'm glad we have knowledgable people here that can answer tough questions.
The TA just won't pay. They'll withold much of the payment until the problems with the equipment are corrected. When you manufacture equipment such as this, you expect problems with early production, and you make your improvements to the line, and future production benefits from this.
-Hank
The warranty clock does not begin to run until the cars reach a performance milestone as spelled out in the contract. For example, the warranty period may not start until the entire fleet has been delivered and has operated at an MDBF of 75,000 miles for 6 months. The vendor wants the warranty period to begin ASAP so they can get their money and get out ASAP.
As problems are found there are two ways to go. If the problem is due to improper engineering by the vendor, an FMI is issued. This is simply a Field Modification that is done to the cars by the vendor at no cost to the TA. Cars delivered are modified 'on-site' while the FMI is cut in on the production line. If the problem is due to improper design specifications by TA engineering, a change order is written. This is basically the same as an FMI but in this case, the TA pays for the change.
For example, the R-46s during overhaul had 132 FMIs issued. The most costly was the replacement of the high speed pinion bearing. This was done on 550 cars at the vendor's expense because we found that at least 500 cars were delivered with an inferior bearing. At the same time, we decided that we wanted to upgrade the glass on the cars to FRA II standards, mid production. Because the TA specified the type of glass to be used & then changed the spec. the TA paid for the old glass, the new glass and the cost of replacing over 400 car-sets of glass.
In any event, once the cars reach the performance milestone, the warranty clock begins to run. In the contract, however, the vendor(s) and the TA specify certain milestones. As the cars reach these milestones, the vendor gets a pre-determined amount of money. For example:
10% when first train-set is delivered
40% when final car is delivered
25% when cars reach MDBF Milestone and warranty begins.
25% when warranty period is successfully completed.
Of course, these numbers are highly simplified and the warranty period can be extended or even re-started for a variety of circumstances. I hope this partially answers your question.
This is the same as most city contracts for services I deal with (mostly on the computer side). We break down the licensing fee over a period of time (during install) and the professional services (help from the vendor) and go though the same change order process.
Amazing how it is all similar.
They'll probably do what has been done to Breda, manufacturer of the Type 8 trolley for Boston. 100 were due to be delivered and in service by this year; just 13 have been delivered. Five were accepted then pulled from service due to a multiple of problems. The Boston MBTA has halted payment and further deliveries until the problems are solved by Breda.
Why do you always post in boldface without turning it off at the end of your post? The result is that the list of replies is also bold, which to me seems "unpeaceful" despite your signoff.
Why do some folks have to nit-pick at what others do? There is always somebody complaining about what somebody else is doing. Live and let live. David Justiano doesn't seem to be bothering anybody else.
I know that you can just peel me off, crumble me up and throw me away for recycling (please do!), but what business do you have telling people what they can and can't do?
I was just told by a friend that works on the Newark Subway, That Friday, March 24, 2000 will be the final day of PCC operation on the Newark City Subway. With NO weekend service, I suggest making an "Emergency weekday SubTalk field trip" To the City Subway. I will be going out there several to ride and photograph them as much as I can. If anyone would like to join me, I'll be going on Friday, January 28, 2000 (Next Friday) E-Mail me for a meeting time & place.
Damn it I won t get to the NY Area until the middle of May. O well next week I will ride the the F Line in San Francisco
Hey Mark,
Thanks so much for the info. Good lookin' out. I just may join you, for a little while, on this one. Keep me posted.................TR
No problem dude. Always great to have you along.
Would that then leave Boston as the only remaining city that still has PCC's in regular revenue service?
-- David
Chicago
The Nth Ward
Frisco has them.
But they are ex-Philly cars painted in various cities'
paint schemes.
They're still PCCs. And Ft Worth also has them.
-Hank
Pittsburgh still runs (or ran) a few PCC's on lines that can't handle the LRV's. However, Pittsburghs are HEAVILY rebuilt, and I think that they're fiberglass from the floor up. They planned to rebuild 50 or so, but stopped after 16 because it was so expensive.
Jon
PA Transit's PCCs are all gone. Actually, they had quite a nice little ceremony on the last day.
As I understand it the Drake Line is also out of service, and probably wont come back. They wanted quite badly to get rid of the Overbrook Line but local pressure forced them to upgrade it to LRT standards. This is ongoing I believe.
Shame - they spent a fortune to make their subway both LRV and PCC accessible, yet hardly used the PCCs. I have some very fond memories (and photos) of PCCs in downtown Pittsburgh, truly a time capsule until the early 1980s.
What is the actual date?
What is the actual date?
I'm suprised that nobody shows interest in the upcoming retirement of these classic streetcars
And what's the parallel branch of the thread all about?
Bernard,
Thanks for the information on the PCC cars. Please let me know which day that you plan on holding a field trip and I will avail myself to attend...
Glen Katz
Brooklyn, NY
Please let me know where & when and I will be happy to attend!
Glen Katz
Brooklyn, NY
Couple of questions:
1. Is the new externsion/shop completed?
2. Are there sufficient LRV's to handle the service?
Haven't heard anything related to either question, and I don't believe that all the LRV's for H-B and City subway have been delivered or accepted.
For those waxing reminiscent of the Newark PCCs, I've posted some shots of Twin Cities #360 arriving in 1953 here.
01/30/2000
NICE SHOTS !!
Bill Newkirk
Nice photos. One little question - I wonder which of the PCC's rolling today was the one in the picture.
I shall pay my farewell visit to my beloved trolleys on March 13, 2000. We shall depart Penn Station for 33rd Street at 8:40AM. Anybody wishing to join us (our party is currently three, including myself) is free to do so.
Wayne
It was renumbered as 21 (ref: PCC Cars of North America).
Count me in on the trip, altho I may make a couple independently to tape them. Wonder if the sound is any different with pans.
01/31/2000
Re: 3/13/2000 PCC trip
Wayne,
Is this your own trip or a SubTalk tour? Maybe it can be annouced here in current events?
Bill Newkirk
Just got into work and all trains are terminating at Grand Central. No service to Times Square. An announcement was made on the train and platform, that due to the cold weather, all trians will be stored undergound.
Upon my observation, the Redbirds are being stored on the Queens bound track from the crossover at 1st Ave to which looks like past Grand Central. The Redbirds are also being stored on the Manhattan bound track from Grand Central to Times Square.
Anybody taking the 7 train in the morning might experience some delays
Paul
I too took the 7 last night @approx 2am.The conductor announced the service change and offered two alternatives,changing at Qns Pl for the N or the Times Square shuttle.I guess they where running last night.
I've been taking the 7 Train for two years and this the first time I've seen this. I know that messages were posted about this a while ago, but I believe the reason for placing the trians in the tunnels is to keep them warm and from the bad weather. Correct me if wrong.
From what i`ve read since that post I`d say you`re right.
Saw the same thing on the center exp. tracks on the n.b.6 @33rd-a line of Redbirds as far as i could see.One of them appeared to have a compressed air leak loud hissing and frequently cycling comp.(every 2 mins).
The last time I was in New York two years ago, the Times Sq. Shuttle didn't run late nights. Is that changed?
No. One exception is from December 31 to January 1 for obvious reasons, but other than that...
I remember when I was in high school, 5 trains were stored on the express tracks between Nostand and Utica and also the lay up tracks after Utica during middays. 4 trains still ran express on the local track.........
3TM
That's a bit unusual. Typically, when cars are stored on the express tracks, trains which normally run express will make local stops. At least this was the case when I encountered this situation on the BMT 30+ years ago. Tore me up, too.
Service should've ran normal in the A.M rush. Some A.M crews just have to report earlier than usual because of the relocation of lay-ups.
Is this an example of why the #7 line is so reliable? Sounds like some managers are doing a good job of going a little farther to make their line more reliable.
Are there any other lines that were/are doing this type of thing during the cold?
Watching the Jean Claude Van Damn movie Maximum Risk. The exterior scens filmed in Brighton Beach. Station showed D/Q trains, but when they showed the train it was a 2 track Philly track and train. At least the Circle Q in Yellow
The best one is in US Marshalls, when they are in the cemetery in
Queens, cross the RR tracks and a METRA (Chicago) double-decker comes
roaring by....
"NY Elevated" book by Reed up for auction on eBay. Currently $15.55. Ends in about six days. I got mine. Here's your chance.
Alan Glick
Ooops. I forgot the link. It's http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=240231408
Alan Glick
On page 72 of the January edition of METRO Magazine, there's a picture of a subway car interior that is used for the purposes of advertising interior transit car panels. The photo, which might be computer generated, looks like it could be the R-143. Since it has tapered sides, I doubt it is the R-142. And it looks too wide to be an IRT car. Has anyone seen this? Is this photo real?
Thursday NewsDay had a small article by Hugo Kugiya about LIRR ridership, on-time preformance and maintenance.
1999 ridership was 82.9M & was 1.9M more then 1998.
All time high was 116M in 1946, lows were in the 70's in the 70's
On-time preformance & maintenance seemed to include some self serving remarks by President Tom Prendergast. I'll let you judge for yourself so won't make any further comments here.
Mr t__:^)
[Thursday NewsDay had a small article by Hugo Kugiya about LIRR ridership, on-time preformance and maintenance.
1999 ridership was 82.9M & was 1.9M more then 1998.
All time high was 116M in 1946, lows were in the 70's in the 70's]
Good news, I suppose ... but today's numbers are a lot closer to the all-time lows than to the all-time highs. That's mediocre progress, at best.
Still, the growth of mass transit in New York has been stunning. It appears that the subway may approach two billion riders this year, close to the all time highs. Now the LIRR.
You have to consider that 60 or 70 years ago most people did not have cars, so transit captured ALL the trips. Today, just about everyone in the suburbs, and 46 percent of those in the city, have cars. True, many of those non-work trips involved the trolley or bus, not the subway or railroad. Still, we are at an all time high for an era when mass transit competed with the auto. And we are way over the national growth trend. I thought that 1.3 billion would be tops for the subway -- that was ridership in 1960, after auto ownership was common but before the systems collapsed.
I'd like to see some heavy duty national news on this issue. It might get us a little more money. Perhaps we should e-mail the national news organizations.
Well, I'm doing my part to increase LIRR ridership, as I've moved back out to LI after a 10-year hiatus.
The 116 million passengers in 1946 figure seems really high. Especially when you consider that there were many fewer residents of Nassau and Suffolk's population was probably only a tiny fraction of what it is today.
On the other hand, a higher percentage of people have cars today and are less reliant on public transit for shopping and work. There certainly weren't sprawling office complexes in Melville and Jericho in 1946 nor were there big shopping malls on LI. From what my parents tell me, if you wanted to shop you went to Hempstead or you took the train into Jamaica.
My (not very educated) guess is that a large share of the 33 million missing passengers are riders who stayed within Jamaica and points east. Sound reasonable?
Chuck
[The 116 million passengers in 1946 figure seems really high. Especially when you consider that there were many fewer residents of Nassau and Suffolk's population was probably only a tiny fraction of what it is today.
On the other hand, a higher percentage of people have cars today and are less reliant on public transit for shopping and work.
My (not very educated) guess is that a large share of the 33 million missing passengers are riders who stayed within Jamaica and points east. Sound reasonable?]
I'd say that sounds pretty reasonable.
1950, wasn t that the year of the 2 back to back fatal accidents on the LIRR, took 50 years for confidence to come back huh?
1950 - the blackest year in LIRR history.
And yes, they STILL have a Train 174 to Babylon, the battering-ram Train Of Doom of Thanksgiving Eve, 1950.
Wayne
I was SUPPOSED to join you all last Sunday for Polo Grounds Shuttle Trip Part Deux-BUT Saturday afternoon I started coughing...sniffling....I think we can all guess the rest! I literally have been on my butt the last 5 days,and not only missed the trip, but all the related posts! How did it go? Lot of folks show? Is Truman still president? (well, it SEEMED like a long time out of touch!!)
[Is Truman still president?]
No, Eisenhower.
No, Warren Harding.
(oops, waybak malfunction)
I thought Brian Pillman was.
I thought Brian Pillman was.
I'm still stuck at Nixon!!! :o>
Wayne
At least it's not Jimmy Carter.:)
It definitely was a successful trip. About 40 people showed up, not all of them SubTalkers, and we got into the tunnel from the Sedgwick Avenue side without much difficulty. While I didn't go on the first trip, I understand that it had been hampered by a lack of flashlights. That fortunately wasn't a problem this time.
There's talk about a third trip, so you should get a chance to participate. By all means try not to miss it!
Next time remove the derailer before entering main line track.
You know, if we have it on Sun April 30, not only will most of us be able to attend,BUT that is the 1st Anniversary of the initial SubTalk field trip! What an appropriate way to celebrate!
I'd prefer the following Sunday. I'm partial to May.
And I'm leaving town on Sunday (arriving Friday). That's why I suggested April 29.
I can't make it, but I'd vote for the 30th as well. It's as big a red-letter date in my life as July 21, 1965 - I rode on the IND for the first time on 4/30/67.
That's a bummer. I was looking forward to meeting Brighton Beach #1 Bob, and Steve 8AVEXP, my two close buddies on this website, but neither of you could attend. Listen, we're going to let you take a raincheck, but there has to come a time when all the big cahoonas on this website come together in New York for one big blowout. Maybe in a year or two.
I usually make it out to the city in the fall, typically late October, and spend a few days railfanning before heading up to Connecticut for my college Homecoming. This past fall I had the privelege of meeting a few fellow Subtalkers in person.
To all participants:
-
I just sawed through a long thread on the Manhattan Bridge, and I must say, the misinformation is pretty extreme. I worked for NYCTA from 1982 - 87, and for much of that time I was responsible for the Track & Structures Dept. capital program, so I think I know a bit about the subject.
1. Bridge was built in 1912. The design is unique, and has nothing to do with "Galloping Gertie". Structural problems do not stem from which side was used more, or from the location of subway tracks on the sides rather than the middle, but rather from the inability of the 1912 designers to properly model the dynamic forces on the bridge resulting from the combination of train and highway traffic (note that there are roadways above both sets of tracks!).
2. In 1982, when I joined the TA, the bridge was closed due to cracks in the stiffening frames on the SOUTH side. The south side was closed for repairs, and we took the opportunity to renew ties and rail on both tracks. The south side was reopened by 1987. North side was then closed for the same structural repairs.
3. Current closures are, I think, for replacement of cables. They were found to be corroded 15 years ago. However, aside from this, there is nothing irreparable about the bridge, and it does not need replacement.
4. Chrystie Street: a lot of confusion here. The south side tracks originally ran down into the BMT Chambers Street station, and in fact the track configuration north of Chambers still reflects this. Southbound J trains have to cross over twice to stay on the main track. We considered reconfiguring this when it was rebuilt in 1986, but it was too expensive and the planning horizon was too long. The tunnel still runs up to the Manhattan Bridge, and a track continues to a bumper block just shy of the eastbound track on the south side. You can walk right through from Chambers to the bridge, but there is no longer a track connection.
South tracks were "cut and thrown" to a connection with the BMT Broadway line in 1967, when the Chrystie Street Connection was built. This realignment permitted Brooklyn trains to run on both Broadway and 6th Ave., greatly increasing capacity to midtown. North of DeKalb Ave. station, the interlocking was rebuilt at the same time, permitting movement from either the bypass or the platform tracks to either side of the bridge.
Chrystie Street tunnel runs from north side of the bridge, under the Bowery and up to the East Broadway station, where the tracks come into the center of the station ("local" tracks are used by the F). This line was originally built as four tracks to the Second Ave. station, where the two center tracks were to go to Brooklyn by a tunnel never built, and (so I am told) connect to the Court Street station in Brooklyn Heights (now the Transit Museum). The new connection cut these tracks just east of E. Broadway, and the center trains at Second Ave. are now just stub tracks which aren't used much.
Hope this is all of some use.
wow i this is what i was lookin to find out. why all the confusion then?
He's wrong anyway.
Randy Resor should know about the Brighton Beach Station Project too. He was fired for the platforms being 4 inches to high to meet train doors. Good Riddanceto this nincompoop. Monica sends her regards too.
Is he the same engineering professional who did the track geometry work on the Brighton Line in the 1980's.
When they rebuilt the track, the geniuses made all 4 tracks on the same elevation, so when the trains banked into curves, they sideswiped each other.
How about the "engineers" not knowing where the feeder cables were, and the contractor digging through them?
How about the "engineers" not knowing that track gage is 56-3/4" around curves?
Engineers are not perfect. Like any one, they make mistakes on the job, but their jobs happen to have a larger scale than most. Where I go to school, the engineers who designed the library forgot to take into account the weight of the books and its effect on the building. Just because they are not flawless does not mean that they are comlete idiots either.... Look at the Citicorp building... Would you insinuate the Pei is not an amazing engineer/architect?
Track geomety mistakes have been made before. Remember the South Ferry snafu a couple of years back? IIRC, there was a similar snafu along the Brighton line, with the new track forcing trains to be 3-4 inches above the station platforms.
Of course they have. Im not trying to say that they're not. But when you have a whole profession being discredited for errors, its pretty pathetic. Like I said, mistakes happen, even in engineering, and to hear people being complketely discredited on a board such as this which discusses perhaps one of the most fascinating and impressive aspects of engineering is a bit disconcerting.
How about these two bus mistakes?When the TA got double decker buses in the 70's for 5th Av they didn't clear the traffic lights and the city was forced to raise the signals all along 5th.When MSBA got articulated buses in the 70's or 80's (not sure when) the buses didn't fit in the spots at the Hempstead Terminal!!!
How about these two bus mistakes?When the TA got double decker buses in the 70's for 5th Av they didn't clear the traffic lights and the city was forced to raise the signals all along 5th.When MSBA got articulated buses in the 70's or 80's (not sure when) the buses didn't fit in the spots at the Hempstead Terminal!!!
Busy night Sarge,? you are repeating yourself
When Denver International Airport, it was discovered that the canopies at the loading docks weren't high enough to allow semi trailors to clear them. They were about a foot too low, IIRC.
Oops!
Oh, lets not get started on DIA...
Don't get me wrong. I've supported DIA from the beginning and still do. It's not all that bad, although there are some things whch could have been done differently. A pedestrian tunnel between councourses comes to mind; there is serious talk about building one between Concourses A and B now that United is using ten gates on Concourse A. All gates are now being used. Passenger volume keeps going up; DIA was designed to handle 50 million passengers annually and is now up to 38 million. There's plenty of space for expansion: gates can be added to the existing concourses, plus there is room for two additional concourses and seven additional runways.
Letting the air out of the tires will only gain about 6"-8"! Oh well....
Yes, but when engineers make mistakes people die, and property is destroyed. That's why people with P.E. licenses are supposed to know how to read and write.
Oh, I forgot---and tell the truth.
Couple of corrections:
The North side was closed in April 1986. Prior to that I recall service on BOTH sides, at least during weekdays. The south side closed in Dec 1988, reopening for a short time in Sept. 90
The 2 "unused" express tracks at the 2nd Ave IND station were to lead directly into the Houston St. tunnel and on into the S4th Street station, not the stub tracks at Court St. There they would have met tracks from the never built Worth St. tunnel, and fed into the vast complex at S4th St, as laid out in the IND's second system plans.
where can i find those ind second system plans?
Click here for the Second system layout, circa 1929.
hey thanaks chris
Boy I am going to have to get my NY Street Map and trace the routes and see how it looks, you with me fred. Get a Map from AAA and do the same
#1 Brighton Express Bob: Hey it wasn't me. There is another sea beach man on this website and he goes by sea beach express. He is 20 years old and is a fanatic for my ("our train"). You see my influence is catching. Maybe we will have a whole slew of Sea Beach men on this website.
As long as the are are Democrats
Tell me the truth. Do you think the TA could or would build any of these routes [with a few modifications]even though they are needed?
No. It would be a miracle if they ever built the proposed 125th to 63rd. st. 2nd Ave. "stubway".
For information on the 1929, 1939/1940, and the 1968 plans, as well as the entire IND, have a look at my History of the Independent System right here on the site. And get those AAA maps out!
--Mark
Yes, an excellent bit of research on your part. Some of the early IND plans are fascinating, if a bit unrealistic.
If the bridge can be entirely fixed, how come half of it has been out of service for 20 years? And how come after the orignial attempt to repair the cracks, more cracks developed? How can we be sure that after this half-billion, the cracking will stop?
We can't. But materials have improved and the test section they tried out seems to be working. Guess we'll have to wait and see! I think a lot has to do with how well they maintain it, not so much how well they fix it.....
Why it takes so long, ripping off the city for cost overloads, overtime etc.
In addition to the corrections by Chris R, I have a few to post too:
The Chrystie Street Tunnel doesn't run under the Bowery, it runs under CHRYSTIE STREET. Does the Eighth Avenue Subway run under Ninth Avenue?
And the line connects to Broadway-Lafayette, not East Broadway.
Since you claim to have worked for the TA, you should have known this. If you're wrong about these simple things, why should we believe everything else you're saying?
Does the Lexington Avenue Line run under Lexington Avenue? It runs under 4th Avenue and Park Avenue south of 42nd Street.
It also runs under Lafayette St. and Broadway. What's your point? The 8th Ave subway runs under 6th Ave from Canal St. to W8th St. The "Nassau" St line only runs under Nassau St for a total of 6 blocks.
Until the part of the line under Lexington was built, it wasn't the Lexington line.
Actually, he claimed to work for the department that's currently overseeing the reconstruction. I wouldn't take his mistakes about subway service as an indicator that everything else he said is wrong.
What I think he meant, but was grammatically vague about, was that to get to the Broadway Lafayette express tracks, the Chrystie Street line runs under the Bowery while turning up Houston Street. Techincally, all Houston Street trains run under the Bowery (and Mott Street, Mulberry, Broadway, West Broadway, Sullivan...), though to say that can be confusing.
Mr Resnor:
I found your post most informative in several respects. I must however disagree with what I perceived as your assertion that decades of assymertrical rapid transit train loading did not play a major role in the deterioration of the Manhattan Bridge.
I was employed by the NYC City Planning Dept from 1993 to 1999 as a project manager, including manager of the "East River Crossings Alternatives Study". In this capacity I wrote (with assistance from a staff, that I graciously acknowledge) a 260-page history of both the Manny B and Willy B that included a review of about 100 separate documents. So I too feel I know something about the subject.
As I understand the situation, the MB deflects up to eight feet when a train passes over one side. Thus the two sides of the bridge act almost as separate bridges with very narrow decks. The lower roadway, situated between the bottom inner chords of the trusses, acts as the link between the two.
I am aware of some "legends" concerning the bridge, such as that the bridge is leaning to the north, or that the C and D north side cables are stretched longer than those of the south side. I do not know if any of these "legends" are true, and thus, they were not included in my report.
However, as early as 1924 the affects of torsion were beginning to be felt. In that year a lateral bracing system on the upper level was removed due to numerous failures attributed to torsion. The documented affects of torsion over the years have also included excessive hanger cable chafing and severe cracking throughout the structure. As eary as 1955 DB Steinman recommended that subway service over the bridge be discontinued due to the uneven distribution of loading. Another study recommended new piers under the approaches to obviate torsion there. Others recommended simultaneous platooned dispatching of trains over the bridge, in pairs.
Thus while other culprits, most sadly the effects of deicing salts, coating failure, and debris, were at work, the inability of the structure to withstand the assymetrical loading was a major factor in its deterioration. Hopefully the current attempts to stiffen the structure will be successful.
So I take it you are no longer with City Planning- Why?
I moved to Boston, both to be closer to my girlfriend and to the Seashore Trolley Museum, where I volunteer on weekends. I work for the MBTA now.
I had a great job at City Planning and worked with good people. I'd probably still be there if I hadn't wanted a lifestyle change, though I doubt I would have wanted to spend my whole career there.
I suppose we all need a change of scenery every now and then! The T is interesting though not as complex as the T.A.
(Why not at still City Planning?)
Because unlike those still there, like me, Conrad got another job.
His leaving set the study back a couple of years. It is unlikely to sputter to any reasonable conclusion in my view. Too bad, since (in response to a Transportation Division request for study proposals) I suggested the thing in the first place.
We heard he "left" because he was attempting to write engineering studies, and he is not an engineer or tech.
Besides, we asked him not you.
FYI - I never claimed to be an engineer or "tech" (though I'm not sure there is a definition for that title)- I'm a planner and analyst, that's what my degrees say I am, and that's what my business card says I am.
The study was not an engineering study (parts have been released - and are available to you, as a taxpayer). You can check it out for yourself. Happy reading.
The bridges are city property, and the purpose of the study was to determine how they might best be utilized in the future. NYCDOT pronounced them as safe, and I concurred fully with their analyses. I also advocated their ongoing efforts, which I felt were very well-crafted and appropriate. I won't speak for my superiors, but I was certainly not out to second guess the TA, DOT, or anyone else. The mission was to quantify the affects that continued rehabilitation work would have on the quality of life and mobility of the city's residents and workers, not to independently assess the condition, safety, or future of the bridges.
We looked at the bridges in the context of the potential of the transit system around them, and in context of new developments in transit technology. The issue was that both DOT and the TA were largely committed to continuing the existing bridge utilization paradigms. We looked at other possibilities such as busways and people movers that could supplement existing subway service. This is as much a city infrastructure issue as a transit issue.
I think most visitors to this site will agree that the idea of dumping thousands of people at Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza or the Flatbush LIRR station onto already-full subway trains is problematic. If the case can be made that the public would be better served by devoting more of the bridge's/bridges' capacity to transit (and I think it can), then why not do so? Again the bridges are city property, and City Planning does just that - it plans.
I think one can also argue that the degree of mobility enjoyed by transit customers 50/60 years ago was somewhat higher than today. Many policy decisions that impacted this degree of mobility were made at the municipal level; e.g., converting the WB BMT trolley trackways into roadways and abandoning the Delancey Street terminal. Again, if the case for re-visiting those decisions can be made, I think it should be, and I think most transit customers and advocates would heartily agree. Hence, the aforementioned study, which was certainly transit-friendly.
I do hope this clears up any potential misconceptions regarding the purpose of the study. Its purpose was hardly to foster parochialism, but rather to build "bridges", if you'll pardon the pun.
Yes, we have seen elements of your writings. For a person who admits to not having a technical background, you certainly are in the habit of making engineering judgement calls.
You cannot simply read a pile of old engineering surveys, regergitate some "facts" from them (which may have been incorrect in the first place), and start issuing editorial edicts based upon your emotions at that moment.
The fact that your are not an engineer disqualifies you from making engineering judgement calls, or giving engineering advice.
You should see a spreadsheet of the relative employment and income gains in community districts whose subway service is affected by the 18 year disruption on the Manhattan Bridge, compared with the rest of Brooklyn, from 1980 to 1990 (census data_. Those engineering judgement calls sure cost a large part Brooklyn a large part of its economic vitality. One would expect these trends have continued in the 1990s.
You don't need to be an engineer to predict the past. In the past, engineers predicted the bridge could be fixed, and service restored, easily, cheaply, and quickly. A lot of money has been made on that bridge. There is every reason for non-engineers to be concerned that the latest engineering fix will also fail, and that in a decade or two cracks will reappear, some or all of the tracks will be taken out of service, and a request will be made for another $billion.
In short, don't lecture non-engineers who have taken an extra 5 - 10 minutes each way to get to work for 20 years.
[You should see a spreadsheet of the relative employment and income gains in community districts whose subway service is affected by the 18 year disruption on the Manhattan Bridge, compared with the rest of Brooklyn, from 1980 to 1990 (census data_. Those engineering judgement calls sure cost a large part Brooklyn a large part of its economic vitality. One would expect these trends have continued in the 1990s.]
I'm a bit confused ... didn't the service disruptions on the Manhattan Bridge begin in 1988 or 1989? If so, they wouldn't be likely to have much effect on 1990 census results.
The Manhattan Bridge has lost half its tracks since, I believe, 1982. That is 18 years. They now say full service will be restored in 2004 -- if nothing else goes wrong. But for how long?
22 years of disruption.
The first Manhattan Bridge track closure was in 1986. But that's only full time. There may have been some persistent GOs beforehand.
What is it you do at City Planning?
I'm an economist.
[You should see a spreadsheet of the relative employment and income gains in community districts whose subway service is affected by the 18 year disruption on the Manhattan Bridge, compared with the rest of Brooklyn, from 1980 to 1990 (census data_. Those engineering judgement calls sure cost a large part Brooklyn a large part of its economic vitality. One would expect these trends have continued in the 1990s. ]
I would disagree. The area around Atlantic Avenue has seen considerable revitalization (BAM, the mall). North Slope (7th Ave) is as wealthy as every. Prospect Park through Church Ave is still a haven for Middle Class Blacks. Ave J through Brighton Beach maintains its middle class immigrant attributes.
Your posting read:
"Yes, we have seen elements of your writings. For a person who admits to not having a technical background, you certainly are in the habit of making engineering judgement calls.
You cannot simply read a pile of old engineering surveys, regergitate some "facts" from them (which may have been incorrect in the first place), and start issuing editorial edicts based upon your emotions at that moment.
The fact that your are not an engineer disqualifies you from making engineering judgement calls, or giving engineering advice"
My response is:
And you, sir or madam, are apparrently "in the habit" of judging people in absentia, dismissing skillsets other than your very own, and both communicating via nom de plume and in the plural (we?). These are all "habits" that I find disturbing, to say the least, and which have only undermined your own credibility.
If you care to return to my original posting, you will note that I not only supported Mr. Resnor's credentials, but agreed with the essence of what he said. I disagreed with the assertion (as I perceived it) that the assymetical loading was not a key factor in the bridge's deterioration, and cited references to that affect. This is the spirit of information exchange, and is the raison d'etre for this forum. Websites are for unilateral opines; bulletin boards are for discussion and feedback. The members of this community, I should think, are hardly interested in being "set straight" by any self-annointed pundits, they are interested in sharing mutual interests and engaging in fruitful dialogue. The purpose of my posting was to convey additional information relevant to the subject.
If you care to cite a specific example of my work with which you disagree, and outline your reasons for that disagreement in a civil fashion, I will be happy to listen. However, I will not respond further to any personal attacks. Frankly, if you had a point to make, you would have made it already. I have no interest in polemic banter.
A literature search is part of any professional planning endeavor, and I fail to see how supporting the findings of some of the most experienced and established engineering firms in the world (which is exactly what I did) is tantamount to practicing engineering without a license. That's a bit like saying that, if you heed your doctor's advice, you place your own medical judgement at the level of a qualified physician, when in reality, the exact oppposite is true.
I would be most intersted in reading more of your experience with regard to the bridges, however, I do hope that this response terminates the present discussion.
I love this guy!
I think he's really funny too, but does anyone know what language he's speaking in?
Who says that your work is being judged "in absentia". Yes, there is a reason that we speak in the plural- we are. Your work speaks for itself.
I see you have forgotten to take your medicine today. Are you still on the Noveen?
Oh, by the way, where did you learn how to back pedal and double talk?
That is clearly your best skill.
Are you capable of any original thought, or do you copy everything from books you dont understand?
Why not just say "I know you are but what am I?"
Ad hominem attacks are not particularly useful, nor do they give a poster any credibility.
Geez, what a lot of name calling! The "N" in my name is silent, guys, just like the "O" in fish. Okay?
I'm glad I was spared the ad hominem attacks, which some nut saved for poor Mr. Miznek. I was just trying to explicate a situation, and now, after all the nonsense, nobody has been able to verify:
- why the south side is closed again
- when things might re-open.
Would someone care to speculate on whether my theory of cable replacement is correct.
Randolph Resor
All that stuff was so long ago, I forget what your theory of cable replacement was.
From what I can see from the train, the H tracks are closed so that side of the bridge can be painted. Last official date I'd heard was H tracks open 2001, whole bridge open (until it starts cracking again) 2003. But lately, I've heard 2004, 2005, etc. Somehow it doesn't seem to matter to very many people (not on this board), does it?
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I'm way out of date on this stuff, but it probably has a lot to do with NYDOT's contracting procedures. I arrived in 1982 during an "emergency" closure of the south tracks. In the fullness of time, the American Bridge subsidiary of U.S. Steel was hired to do structural repairs. In 1985, they walked off the job in a contract dispute (the same thing happened to the reconstruction of the BQE between Kent Ave. and the Kosciusko Bridge around the same time).
My guess is that, 18 years later, there are still ongoing discussions at NYDOT on how to address the "emergency". Ya gotta love this town...
(Still trying to address the emergency)
My concern is a West Side Highway situation, in which (having deferred maintenance for 80 years) they keep pouring money in to stop the cracking, but the cracks recur during an economic downturn. Then something will happen to take the bridge out of service on an emergency basis and, with no funding for another $500 million fix, it will just never re-open. It will be closed to trains with no replacement on the horizon. Everyone will blame everyone else, and that will be that.
The result -- economic disaster. By the time they could put in a replacement to increase service, say a new tunnel or connections to existing tunnels, it would no longer be needed, because the southern rim of Brooklyn would be occupied by far fewer people with jobs in Manhattan, or jobs at all.
That could be the result of 18+ years of denial. It's a historical opinion, not an engineering opinion, based on 18 years of failure to fix and the fate of other similar infrastructure, like the West Side Highway or the rail bridge a Poughkeepsie.
It seems that the cables would stretch (and need replacement) from the action of torsional loads over time. From my understanding (and I am an engineer), this is exactly what happened - not necessarily a "galloping Gertie" type of torsion, but a slow, repeated, constant one over a long period.
On a suspension bridge, flexibility is the key. The cables are designed to flex. Like anything else, though, there is a limit to the amount of 'flex' that can be exacted. The Ben Franklin Bridge here in Phila is in the process of having its suspender cables (not the main cables) replaced for similar reasons. The Ben doesn't have the torsion problems that the Manhattan has, but its cables have been stretched to the point that they need to be replaced (and the Ben, built in 1926, is younger than the Manhattan, which I believe was built in 1909).
It makes sense that bridge designers in 1909 did not anticipate the heavy loads of the present day, but all structures are overdesigned to some degree (also known as the factor of safety). In those times, with little known about structures, the tendency was to overdesign greatly. The Brooklyn Bridge was built with what was later determined to be a factor of safety of 9 (i.e. 9 times its design loading), not that anyone involved with the design was aware of this - they just wanted to ensure that it would remain standing. The Manhattan's designers likely took the same approach. This is why today truck weight limits can be 40 tons legally - most structures can take this (even subway tunnels, which must support the weight of streets and vehicles above them).
What the structural engineers of those days didn't anticipate was the volume of today's traffic as well as corrosion, much of which is caused by road de-icing chemicals. Road and bridge deterioration was not so bad until after the 1950's when these chemicals started to be used intensively. This is perhaps the major contributing factor to infrastructure problems. Unfortunately, there are no good alternatives.
[What the structural engineers of those days didn't anticipate was the volume of today's traffic as well as corrosion, much of which is caused by road de-icing chemicals. Road and bridge deterioration
was not so bad until after the 1950's when these chemicals started to be used intensively. This is perhaps the major contributing factor to infrastructure problems. Unfortunately, there are no good alternatives.]
What about limiting the use of de-icing chemicals on bridges? If these chemicals weren't extensively used before the 1950's, presumably they aren't absolutely necessary. Especially as today's heavier traffic volumes probably provide a "natural" de-icing action.
Peter- the new Brooklyn outer roadway on the Willie B is labeled as a No Salt Zone on the concrete approach and the main bridge to the other end.
The chemicals weren't used because, in those days, if weather was bad enough, people parked their cars and took transit. Delivery trucks had chains put on their tires and found their ways through. These days the politically expedient response is to get the roads back to normal. It's almost considered a right by most people. Of course, roads also serve transit...
Other chemicals have been tried and generally are not effective or are way too costly.
No good alternatives? Hmm. I've lived in places with very different philosophies on salting roads, so there seem to be some alternatives.
What is NY using? Sodium Chloride? Calcium chloride? Different salts are more and less corrosive. Sodium chloride is cheapest, but one could use a more expensive salt just on the bridge...
There are alternatives but salt is generally much more effective. Many areas use sand but it will not melt ice like salt and is also an environmental problem when it enters sewer systems.
Seems like there has got to be better way to get salt off a bridge with a multibillion dollar replacement cost...
(Must be a better way to get snow off a bridge, corrosion of salting)
Perhaps the deck should be heated? I wonder if that would pay? Alternately, salt corrosion seems to be another reason to build toll tunnels.
Chevron came up with some chemical about 10 years ago they said would remove ice as well as salt does, but without the corrosiveness. I don't know how much it costs though -- salt and sand are pretty cheap compaired to any man-made product, and the city may have decided it wasn't worth the cost.
In the 1960 sI had to move to Memphis TN (YUck!). They built an overpass to bring an East-West Street over a newe highway they had built. The bridge was designed with a heating element and guess what-- it cost more to operate the heaters(even with 2 cent per KWH electricity from TVA) and it did not work--it was worse than non-heated bridges. They pulled the plug and just started treating it like any other bridge.
I am sure one of our engineering people can elaborate further.
RESPONSE IN CAPITAL LETTERS............. the worst rail system in the WORLD is right here in LOS ANGELES !!!
reply and respond and i will give you the facts !!!
L.A. hardly has any rail system.
I rode Blue Line full lenght and the Red Line new Subway between Union Station and Hollywood/Vine on a visit last summer.
I thought they were o.k., just not nearly enough for a city of Los Angeles size. Chicago, NYC, and San Francisco are the only 2 in my opinion that have large enough transit systems and proabaly ever will.
Being from Chicago, I did like the ride that the Red Line offered and the Blue line was an adventure being one of only 3 white people on it both ways.
L.A. is in love with cars and never will have enough public rail systems in my opinion.
BJ
Boston also has an excellent subway system, in my opinion. It goes everywhere.
Why is being in the minority on the train an adventure? I could really care less.
"Being from Chicago, I did like the ride that the Red Line offered and the Blue line was an adventure being one of only 3 white people on it both ways."
What time of day were you riding the Blue, and from what station to what station? The Cermak Branch of the Blue goes almost exclusively through Hispanic neighborhoods, and the Forest Park Branch goes through the heart of the mostly-black West Side, but the Forest Park Branch also has a fair number of white passengers heading to or from the outer stops of the line in Oak Park and Forest Park. And the O'Hare Branch, from downtown north, goes almost exclusively through white neighborhoods.
what does CHICAGO have to do with LOST ANGELES NOT
AND HAVING THE WORST RAIL SYSTEM ??
It has nothing to do with it Mr. Willie, but, let's face it, we love to get off into tangents. It's more fun that way.
Please, use the names Congress and Douglas. The new branch names are the most idiotic names given to rail lines EVER!!!
And what does the racial makeup of the train lines matter? You can't make judgements like that, because the Douglas also goes through the suburb of Cicero, and what's to say that white people might not get off at one of the inner-city Congress stops to change to the bus or something?
And moreover, why are we having this discussion in the first place? Who the hell cares?
The new ones make more sense, they're the names of either the terminal or the avenue of operation. As opposed to a line taking the proposed but never used name for an expressway, and another for an obsolete street naming at it's terminal.
THE WORLDS WORST RAIL SYSTEM HANDS DOWN IS ................. los amgeles california....
say it again LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA """ the myth of public transit in los angeles """
Hey, Willie, I thought it was LOST Angeles. Did you find it? :-)
"Support Rail equipment preservation for >>>RAILFAN WINDOWS<<< forever"
Willie, how many other systems have you been on to compare? I am curious?
All right, already! This point's been made two or three times a day, over several days.
David
01/23/2000
C'mon Mr.Willie, after expierencing MARTA and LA MTA you must be homesick for New York City!
Bill Newkirk
YEA !!! RIGHT ON MARTA WAS ONLY A LITLE BIT BETTER !!! 1984 - 1987
BUT LOS ANGELES METRO RAIL IS STILL THE WORST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD !!
if you dont believe me next time you visit automobile bumper smog infested LOST ANGELES CALIFORNIA !!
EXCUSE ME! It WAS called the Congress Expressway at on time. And
the problem with the name "Forest Park" is that there is more than one
stop in Forest Park. The terminal shouldn't be named Forest Park either. Douglas called that because the line goes through Douglas Park. Obsolete street naming at the terminal? 54/Cermak is a good name for the terminal but NOT for the line. It tells you nothing about the neghiborhood the line goes through.
Plus, I LOVE the ring of the name Congress/Douglas/O'Hare. I'll never call it anything else. Love it when the conductors say "Jackson/State, transfer for West-Northwest Congress/Douglas/O'Hare"
I also like the name Lake/Englewood/Jackson Park, although it was better when it was the Howard/Englewood/Jackson Park.
ONE MORE TIME L , A. !!!! LOS ANGELES ( lost angeles ) HAS THE WORST RAIL SYSTEM !!!
at least chicago has a rail !!!!!
I still remember when the Red line was known simply as North/South, although that still holds true today. The trains used to carry Englewood/Howard and Jackson Park/Howard signs.
The references are to Los Angeles' red and blue lines, not Chicago's.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chicagos Red and Blue Lines etc were not the original Red and Blue Lines. Boston Starting calling their lines colors before anyone else, now there is Chicago,, Philly, Cleveland, LA any where else?
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS LOST ANGELES ( los angeles) DOES AND IS AND HAS THE WORST RAIL SYSTEM
this will be continued on my next post THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES CA .
Have you been to Phoenix where the busses do not run on Sundays Holidays or nights, even in the central city, or Miami where you are lucky to see a bus 3 times a hour on busses to downtown during daylight hours. I lived in LA 38 years and know the system is bad, but others are worse.
Washington DC
No its better the LA s I have usewd both quite a bit over the past 10 years. What is confusing is their bus system numbering, but that belongs on bus talk
Also Baltimore subway, which does not run on Sundays and Holidiays from what I remember
Never on Sunday. Maybe if and when the d*****d 50 per cent farebox recovery rule is eliminated we can have 7 day a week subway service.
However, don't hold your breath (or anything else).
Nobody in Philly calls lines by their colors.
SEPTA gave the lines colors in the mid-70's but, as Isaac points out, they're still the El, Subway, Subway-Surface, Media, Sharon Hill, P & W (a REAL oldie!), and commuter trains to us locals. SEPTA was even generous enough to christen PATCO as the Red Line on some maps back then, but no one has ever used that moniker here (usually PATCO or the Speed Line suffice).
I find myself dealing with college students quite a bit and am always chuckling when I hear about them using the Green Line to go downtown, and having to change to the Blue Line to get further east. I also shivered a bit when SEPTA began to put the blue belt stripes on the el cars, along with the words "Blue Line" on the ends.
They may not call it the Blue/Red Line but SEPTA Does so it is official.
The el cars talked about have since been taken out of service. The new cars (M4s) do not have a stripe like that. Sometimes, the display shows blue line, but the display shows a lot of things.
I think the lines were officialy called Blue and orange (etc) for a couple years, then changed back to their origional names. But some rolling stock is still decorated (or painted) with their respective color.
It's hard to tell what the official reference is since SEPTA maps both call it by color and don't - the color of the lines on the maps is always consistent, but I haven't seen the color in parentheses on the latest maps as it was in the past.
The engineering group working on the El rehab/rebuild is technically called the Blue Line Structures (BLS) team (it sounds much better than FERP or MERP - Frankford (or Market) El Reconstruction Project).
Besides, when SEPTA starts learning how to seriously run a system and treat customers, then I'll personally worry about what it wants the lines called (and I think denizens of fellow customers out there would agree with me). I wouldn't care what SEPTA called the lines as long as they could be operated well.
In my book, NJT is the worst-- imagine an LIRR "west of Hudson Division" (Yes- I know they do not run in NJ) and cut the service in half.
NJT has also color coded the lines:
Red is Northeast Corridor ( same red as IRT 1/2/3/9)
Green is Morris and Essex (includes Gladstone)
-same colors as IRT 4/5/6
Light blue is North Jersey Coast-same color as old JFK Express
Dark Blue is ATlantic City (same color as A/C/E)
Orange is Raritan- same color as B/D/F/Q
Yellow is Main and Bergen (includes Port Jervis)-Same color as N/R
Purple is Pascack valley- same color as IRT #7
Brown is Boonton
So what if they have? The LIRR and Metro-North use color coded lines, but nobody uses them. The subway has color coded lines, but nobody uses that either.
Yeah, for some reason the "Lex" rolls off the tongue a bit easier than the "Dark Green Line." :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
I've noticed the current crop of yuppies (i.e., twentysomethings, new in town, with a fancy job that lets them pay much too much for an apartment on Second Avenue) call their train line "the Fourfivesix," not the Lex. I've heard college freshmen talking about the lines by color, but they get broken of that within a few months.
What really bugs me is when people say, "I took the 1 and 9 this morning." Come on, you took either a 1 OR a 9!
What about conductors who announce peak trains at off-peak times? On Sundays one should not announce, "34th Street, change for the B, D, F, Q!" or "Columbus Circle, change for the 1 and 9!" To our SubTalk C/R or former C/R friends, what is proper procedure here?
My folks grew up in the Bronx in the 20s and 30s and still refer to lines by their names (Van Cortlandt, White Plains, Jerome, Pelham, Concourse). All previous IND lines (A through G) are called the 8th Avenue Line. Likewise, my in-laws grew up in Brooklyn the same time and still refer to the Culver, Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Broadway Brooklyn, etc. If I mention a line by letter or number, no one has any idea what I'm talking about.
The old Southern Division titles are still used by Brooklynites, and the route signs on the R-32s and R-38s have them. Which reminds me: if there are indeed R-32s running on the B, do their route signs still say something like B/Wash. Hts-6th Ave.-West End even though they now run on the Concourse line during rush hours?
My sister and brother-in-law refer to the BMT Broadway line, which is what I call it, as the N/R. The Queens line to them was the E/F. The L line will always be the Canarsie to me. And the A train will always be just that.
The electronic R-46 signs also refer to the F as "Culver Local".
I'm sure 70% of the people on the train don't know what a Culver is :)
--Mark
Yes, indeed they do. That percentage sounds right.
I agree with you. The conductors on the 1/9 say 2 oh 7th instead of 200nd 7th. Or #4 conductors who say Mashola Pkway instead of using it's proper pronunciation of Maashalou.
Funny enough, my mother used to work at MOntefiore Hospital near Mosholu Pkwy and there were people there who used one or the other pronunciation.
From spending the first 14 years of my life there, I opt for the latter pronunciation. Anyone else?
Here is one that bugs me:
A G.O. is going on and there is no local (or express) and the conductor will announce "Change here for the express" and yes- it is taped off!
OK Subway-Buff, I'll see you and raise you one: I heard this one last weekend at Queens Plaza heading towards Jamaica Center:
"E Express making all local stops!"
Ooooh!!! <GONG!> That's straight out of the Yogi/Casey book.
Wayne
Considering that it was an E train, it doesn't surprise me. The ultimate oxymoron was seeing an E train of R-1/9s pulling into 42nd St. on the local track with its side signs proclaiming "E/8th Ave. Express". That E ride to 14th St. on that fateful Saturday in September of 1967 seared a sense of utter betrayal in my memory, and it left such a strong anti-E feeling that even to this day I still refuse to board an E train south of 42nd St.
I suppose a prewar F train running along 6th Ave. with "F/6th Ave. Express" signs could also be considered an oxymoron.
Which brings up the question -- If the R-142s are going to have computerized announcments, with the conductors remember to turn them off when there's a GO in place?
Here's a pet peeve I've seen recently.
There's a G.O. on the Concourse Line with uptown trains making express stops only between 145th St and Fordham Road. At express stations, conductors don't open the doors on the downtown side to facilitate cross-platform transfers to downtown trains making all stops. The R-68s have full width cabs - conductors can't take the time to open both sides during this G.O.? It would be a very simple convenience for people being forced to make the transfer because of the G.O.
--Mark
You would think that having full-width cabs would make opening up on both sides easier. Then again, if that particular G. O. called for ALL northbound trains to run express, it would have made better sense to open up on the downtown side only at Tremont Ave. at least.
I'm not sure what the Blue Book says about announcing lines not in operation, but I too am annoyed when I hear "Change for the J/M/Z" at Broadway-Nassau or "Change for the B/D/F/Q" at 34th-Broadway on weekends. Neither the J/M/Z or the Q operate at those transfer points on the weekend. I guess some C/R's just forget.
Wayne
I've ridden amny a train. Some C/Rs do announce only operating lines or if there is a G.O." There is no *** service here." Some announce the lines that are not running and to make it worse I have told some because the stuck their heads out of the cab and then they repeat their wrong announcement!! (Yes- I was in uniform!!)
I have then annouced in a normal type voice of no ** trains here and finally got a thanks from that conductor.
You're right - it can be annoying. In a way, I can understand such gaffes, since many conductors probably get into the habit of saying "Transfers available for such-and such" whether a particular service is running or not.
Perhaps they drove in from New Jersey and were on Routes 1 & 9. They are together for a stretch, including the Polaski Skyway.
Good point, Mark. In fact I've heard our traffic reporter, Tom Kaminski, mention 1 & 9 (roads) and 1 & 9 (trains) in the same sentence. I wonder if there's a SUBway sandwich shop on the NJ road?
LOL
Ah, yes, the Pulaski Skyway. One of my favorite bridges.
It's been poppin up all over the place. I've seen alot of it on the Flushing IRT. especially on the 7th ave local. they show up every where else in the system also! I think the TA is slacking a bit. they even did not come up with a solution for that scratching windows business! it's
I am a Station Agent and see tons of tourists, many of whom seems to be at a loss where to go.
My first help attempt is the traditional one of " take the 1 to 59th Street and change for the D". If that does not work then I go to colors.
I use the map and refer to the colors. If I tell them to transfer at Columbus Circle I'd tell them "Do you see where the red crosses the blue and orange? That is where you transfer."
"Thanks!" is the response I get and they seem pleased. While I may not understand a foreign language or for someone with reduced levels of literacy, I use colors and that helps!
you are entitled to your opinion.
I should have said that colors are not WIDELY used. I'm sure that there are also some people on the commuter lines that want to refer to the lines by color.
You bring up a good point: the color code in New York may make more sense to tourists, as they are less likely to be familiar with the system. Actually, if you stay in Manhattan, the color code works pretty well. It's only when you go outside of Manhattan that it can get confusing.
Montreal's Metro uses a combination of numbers and colors. Line 1 is the Green Line; #2 is the Red; #4 is Yellow. Don't know about the newest line except that it's #5. There is no line 3.
line 1 is green, line 2 is orange and not red, line 4 is yello and line five is blue. and to bring up the world's worst rail system is the ones in europe. when they have rail accidents, they are ten times worse than what AmTrak had experienced.
European the worst? I don't think so! Severe accidents are legendary in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, but not particularly in Europe. My own experience with European trains is nearly 30 years ago so I'll defer to others out there for the details, but I don't think their safety record is any worse than our own.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
RIGHT HERE IN LOST ANGELES FOLKS los angeles ..... THE WORST RAIL SYSTEM !!
Perhaps if L.A. kept the Pacific Electric system intact they would have a decent mass transit system. From what I've read about P.E. it was a fairly large system that covered L.A. and surrounding areas. Any comments would be welcome as I am not an expert on the P.E. system. Thanks for any replies!!!!
You can thank the automobile, among other things, for the demise of P. E. and the streetcar system in Los Angeles.
right on bob and steve thats whats i am talking about right ON TOPIC ...
THE WORLDS WORST RAIL NON-SYSTEM IS RIGHT HERE IN LOS ANGELES ( and hollywierd )
right on bob and steve thats whats i am talking about right ON TOPIC ...
THE WORLDS WORST RAIL NON-SYSTEM IS RIGHT HERE IN LOS ANGELES ( and hollywierd )
Re. European railways as unsafe
There's been a lot of talk recently about the safety of the *British* railway system in the aftermath of the Paddington crash and another deadly crash a year or so ago. Though rail travel is still safer by a factor of 52 or more -- the annual deaths on the rails roughly equal the weekly deaths on the roads -- there's a lot of extremist "scare talk" in the British media (which has bled over onto the Net to a greater or lesser degree) like evening-news sound bites of commuters insisting they will drive rather than risk their lives on the "death trap" trains.
The reason for this heightened perception of unsafeness on the British railways is more socio-political than due to any real increase in British rail deaths. Since the British railways were privatized only a few years ago, many there have lived their entire lives with a single government-owned passenger rail system. Much of the public is thus wary of a for-profit system with multiple train operators, and the fatal accidents of the last couple of years fit right into general underlying fears or concerns that a for-profit railway sacrifices safety to profit.* And as we all know, anything that builds on the public's underlying fears and has striking visuals (the wreckage of trains on the line; ambulances speeding away, sirens screaming and lights flashing; snow-covered cars at train station lots, unclaimed because their commuter owners will never return; etc.) is bread and butter to the media, whether here or in the UK.
*While Americans are certainly not naive and trusting about "Big Business," we are used to entrusting our lives to the privately-owned airlines. We detest flying for its inconveniences and discomforts. (^: But, generally, we don't fear for our safety when we fly.
John,the concern here is that we have a system without train protection on the main lines, trains with doors that passengers open and close (even when the train is running)and semaphore signals and other hangovers long since gone in other systems. Despite this last year had the lowest number of passenger fatalities on British Railways this century (I believe this to be correct unless someone else knows different).
Money is need to bring the system up to scratch and when this is achieved the system will no doubt rank among the safest in the World.
Simon
Swindon UK
You are correct, of course, that there are real questions and issues about the adequacy of safety measures on the British railways, and ATP (or the lack thereof) is one of the biggest ones. I apologize for not referring to these issues in my posting and for giving the impression that all questioning of British rail safety is based in sociopolitical causes.
Nevertheless, opinion-poll quotes and man-on-the-street "sound-bites" in the British media (from what I can read on the BBC and newspaper websites) from people claiming to be former rail commuters insisting that they will drive until they can be sure the trains are safe again -- which from the tenor of some of the debate seems to be when the railways are securely back in Government ownership and out of the bloody hands of greedy businessmen -- demonstrate a media-fueled overreaction to the problems that DO exist. And it's a potentially fatal over-reaction if people really ARE giving up the relative safety of trains for the much-deadlier roads in large numbers -- penny-wise and pound-foolish, as it were. (^:
Or to give another concrete example, the postings I read on various forums on the day of the Paddington crash and the following days were blaming, and calling for the arrest of officers of, Great Western Trains. This despite the fact that, of the three companies involved, it's the least likely to have caused the accident by its negligence -- the ThamesTrains driver ran the signal and Railtrack maintained the signal in an allegedly hard-to-see position. People were angry at GreatWestern because it was involved in the last fatal accident (on the same stretch of line) and yet hadn't installed ATP, which many attributed to GW being a big greedy company acting for (gasp!) profit. Never mind that even if the Great Western train had had ATP, it would not have prevented the Paddington crash. The media doesn't want to confuse an angry British public with little things like facts, because when the public is angry about something particular, it tends to voraciously watch and read the news.
John, I dont know where they get these so called experts from but knee jerk reactions waved around by the media detract from the real issue and that is that after the Clapham disaster it was decided to install ATP on all routes. Trials were held and then it was decided it was too expensive and that privitisation should be funded instead. Then we had Southall and again it was stated that ATP would be introduced. But agian nothing was done except a new scheme (the name of which escapes me) which is useless when trains travel at over 70mph. Then we have Ladbroke Grove agian the politicians say ATP will be introduced but after the dust is settled and the funerals are over we have the climb down to the cheap scheme again. This all gives people little confidence in the rail authorities or operaters. Of couse we all know rail travle is safer. That is why a rail incidents always make the front page. Twelve years after Clapham we are still no further forward.
I stand corrected. It's been a long time since I've ridden on that system.
"The references are to Los Angeles' red and blue lines, not Chicago's."
I re-read the original message, and you're correct. My error; I was thrown off by the "Being from Chicago" at the start of that sentence.
Re: colors for lines. Metra uses colors consistently to refer to lines in timetables and on screens. For example, the UP-Northwest line always has yellow timetables, and UP-NW trains are always listed in yellow on the screens in Northwestern Station. (Yes, I refer to the CTA lines by color but still use the old name for what Metra calls the Ogilvie Transportation Center. The difference is that ordinary people [not railfans] commonly use the color names for "L" lines, while nobody calls the downtown terminal for UP trains the Ogilvie Transportation Center except in official documents and signs. Blue line is a simplification, while Oglivie Transportation Center is a complication.)
But Metra has never attempted to actually name the lines by their colors, because it would be too confusing with the CTA L lines, because there are twelve Metra lines and fewer than twelve distinct colors, and because there's a lot of color overlap betwen Metra lines terminating at different downtown stations: UP-North and BNSF are both forest green, the orange of the Milwaukee North is the same as the orange of Metra Electric, and the bright red of the Rock Island line is too similar to the maroon red of the Heritage Corridor line.
NJT has installed new monitors at Newark Penn and uses the map colors for the line color on the new monitors.
NYCT Color: Even for outer boroughs I use color. They may say " I want to go to Church Ave". I would say Which color "The orange on the left, the orange on the tight or the one with the red and the green.
COlor is a good tool even if they are not used as "Green line" or "red Line"
NJT has installed new monitors at Newark Penn and uses the map colors for the line color on the new monitors.
No wonder I can't read the &@*^ things!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They also have the old venetian blind boards at each track and the old big board downstairs.
I agree the focus on the monitor needs improvement but I think they are still under test.
I live in Los Angeles and ride the Red Line subway every day. While the MTA certainly has its faults, this city is certainly preferable to a place like Phoenix, which has no transit at all on Sundays. Los Angeles may not have the best rail system, but it is far from being the worst.
MY FAVE TRAIN SYSTEMS IN ORDER (best-> worst)
NEW YORK
of course, being a born & bred Knickerbocker
D.C.
one semester in school, also a nice walking town
USSR
back before the fall, in Moscow & Leningrad
CHI-TOWN
handful of experiences in as many visits over 10 yrs, still cosmopolitan
PHILLY, BEANTOWN
visited/rode trains about the same in Philadephia & Boston as Chicago
'HOT'LANTA (maybe the weather, but the transit?)
no matter what line, hafta get off and take a bus; also Atlanta is NOT pedestrian-friendly
MOTOWN (really just an 'honorable' mention)
downtown Detroit has a cute little tram
This morning the trains were 20-30 minutesd late and Amtrak cancelled the 9am Metroliner from NY Penn. Just now, the NJT web page says the dinky is out Till further notice and delays back up to 20-30 minutes.
I realize the line is old but why cant NJT run trains in the colr- dont places like Europe run electric caternary trains in cold weather
A co-worker of mine tried to get a 7:16 am out of Metro-Park bound for New York. Because of a breakdown there were no trains for 45 to 60 minutes. Finally a train pulled in on the center track. Passengers were asked to descend a stairway at the front of the platform and board the train through a few doors from the ground level. There was chaos with people jumping off the platform and trying to get on through the few open doors. This train was further delayed by people walking around the tracks. My co-worker was lucky and got on the train. Police were called in to restore some safety and order. I wonder if this will be in the local newspaper or will NJT quash it. New Jersey Transit has really fallen down on the job when it comes to the normal overcrowding when the trains do run. When you have breakdowns (which I know they don't want) the frustrated commuters are losing it. I've seen people taking swings at each other, yelling at each other and at this station the second problem is that mistake of two parking decks that were built that don't allow you to get in or out of them. The tempers from the train continue in the parking area because a lot of times one trainload of commuters can't get out of the deck before another train pulls in. One way lanes in the deck and lot don't mean anything, turning lanes are turned into what you want them to be, and this has now become the norm out on the township street in front of the deck. There are no rules and I don't blame the Woodbridge police because there's nothing you can do with all that traffic.
They quash it. 7/4/1999 my train broke down and was cancelled at Rahway. There was a near riot at Rahway- train crews (two trains) were unable to keep order and no police from NJT around. NJT in a reply to my e-mail did admit they blew it but they did nothing.
All NJt is interested in is building monuments--I call therm marble Monuments; They built two at MetroPark, one at Elizabeth, One at Hamilton (Station), two new ones pending at Newark Airport and Secaucus.
NJT does not give a hoot about the passengers-- I have had the opportunity to answer several surveysand I gave mostly 1- unacceptable.I checked the may we contact you box and guess what--no response.
Trains are late- no announcements, or the annoucements are inaudible or just plain wrong. One day at MetroPark there was an annoucement that the xx train to New York would arrive on the Bayhead bound platform. Everybody scrambeled (via tracks) to the other side platform and yes, the train arrived on the normal platform and yes, they jumped the fence between the tracks and walked in front of the train to board and many boarded betwewen cars.
I have figured out that NJT stands for :
Nasty
Junky
Trains
If you think that NJTransit trains are bad, try riding one of our beloved 1955 Long Island Railroad coaches! Phew! PFOOEY! PTUI!
You can smell them things a mile away!
Wayne
NJT's Comet I and Comet II cars (the ones with no center doors) are also bad- they have carpet on the floor that is now a black growing mass and have restrooms (even the Arrow III cars) that overflow and you can spell them in the next car and see stuff on the car floor at the other end of the car.
Yes- I did ride those cars for the ERA fan Trip (unless they let us use "good" cars).
Crossing the tracks? This goes with a WMATA operator asking passengers to slide the door closed so he could move on. Why didn't they switch tracks? I was on Amtrak train 104 which stops at Metropark and there is a crossover before the station. Why don't they use it?
Hard to when it's frozen. I'm just guessing, but that's probably what happened.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Taking swings at each other? Ignoring road rules? That's normal behavior in New Jersey.
In windy weather the wires blow down. In winter snow causes traction motors to overheat by blowing into cooling air intakes. In the autumn leaves cause wheels to slip. I suppose we can't have it all ways.
Simon
Swindon UK
/*ont places like Europe run electric caternary trains in cold
weather */
Yes, and they have constant tension systems, which amtrak seems to show no interest in installing on the NEC below NY, and Cdot shows no interesting in installing on the New Haven line.
Such as system would also allow for speeds greater than 125 below NY, though the track isn't even close to being good for 150 (the numerous interlockings along there surprisingly don't have moveable frog switches), and I don't think the signaling is good for over 120 either.
IMHO, I wish amtrak would stop with the half-assed attempts at HSR on the NEC and give us the real thing already. I've been on the Metroliner (from Philly to NY), it's a joke. It's expensive, rides like the LIRR, and it's not spectacularly fast either (it could certainly be a lot faster). Acela is late,the equipment has so far has yet to be proven in service (Why didn't Amtrak at least go with ABB's X-2000, which at least has some record of service behind it?), and frankly, I don't expect to see it anytime soon.
Maybe I'm just a cynic, maybe I'm still pissed about the 40 minute engine change at New Haven on my hartford/springfield train the other day*. But I see Amtrak more as a roadblock to HSR in the US than a path to it.
*We arrive, 10 min late into New Haven. The sawp takes a few min. We leave, the locomotives brakes go screwy 2 miles out, we run backwards at 5mph back into the station. We sit for another 20 min before they finally swap locomotives. Of course, Amtrak's sorry about this. I called them up and demanded a refund, which they reluctantly gave me. Apparently, a 40 min delay on a 3 hour train ride is "not an unaceptable delay"
The problem is also that the switches are freezing. That tied up SEPTA for a few hours yesterday. Each switch costs 40k a year to maintain and the added cost of a heater would not justify the gains. After all, with all that industrial heat pollution it dosen't get very cold in the east anymore.
Umm... Have you been in a heated burrow in the ground for the last two weeks?
I not saying that it never gets cold, I just dosen't get cold much. Last year I can remember only one really cold week I for one would love to see more cold weather, mainly because I love winter realted activities like sking and waking on ice. BTW my friend from Minnasota has been laughing at us all for the last month. He thinks that everyone on the east coast is a big wuss. It was still short sleve weather for him in December.
DOES any have a complete list of letter/number routes of the present system on file? could you post them here?
Read the FAQ
Surf around on this site Dave has it in one of his lists.
You can also find info. on the "R", i.e. subway car ID
Mr t__:^)
While I have tried to read every posting concerning Q Blvd service ( using redbirds for interm service, G line cutbacks, etc) I could not find what the proposed service pattern would be -- V train going from where to where (or is it the Q train??). Help!
No plan has been decided upon. There might be NO new service in 2001, because of a car shortage, and we might have to wait until all the R143 cars are in service. The Manhattan Bridge also affects these service plans. So your guess is as good as anyones.
I'm confused for the split B/D/Q service.
Back in the 80's with that shutdown, did they run the B/D and Q on Broadway and 6th Avenue?
YES!
If you ever notice once in awhile, you'll see an orange N/R, or yellow B/D/Q endsign on a train because of careless setting.
The reason for this is that they did run the lines split
with 6Ave trains going up Bwy and visa-versa.
Most cars with rollsigns have the B and D and Q routes in orange and yellow (except for the R68's). No car carries an orange N route.
The Bdwy B/Q Terminated at 57th-7th Ave, The 6th Ave B & D started at 34th St, that was the transfer point. The 6th Ave B ran only at rush hours. I think they closed the 57th St 6th Ave Station, I am not sure, or they ran a shuttle from Grand St to 57th-6th.
There was a shuttle between Grand St. and 57th St.-6th Ave. They used R-27/30s which were destined for the scrap heap - heavily graffitied and NOISY!!!
Yes, those Sixth Ave. shuttle R27's certainly gave the R10 a run for it's money noise-wise.
I do remember the R-10s in their final days and, yes, some of them were painfully loud. They weren't so bad back in the good old days when they ruled supreme on the A. Even when racing up CPW at full speed (oh, about 50 mph, give or take a few mph), the noise level inside the train wasn't deafening. I never had to hold my ears anyway. Now, if you were standing on a local platform when one of those trains thundered past in a blur of teal and white, you'd get an earful.
Actually, there is an orange N sign on some slant R40s and it has been displayed. I don't know what road numbers the cars have and I don't know what the orange N was for.
Let me get this straight:
1) E & F going to 179 St - Jamaica Express
2) R & V/W (WTC via 6 Ave) to 71 Av - Continental local
3) Q (B @ nights & weekends) to Jamaica/Archer Express
4) G to Court House Square 100% of time
It appears that the the WTC to Queens line would use 63rd Street tunnel. Would the R train use this tunnel from Broadway or continue to use 59 Street tunnel. Another alternative would be to have the Q train use the 63rd Street tunnel if the south side of the Manhattan Bridge is open for subway traffic again.
How will they fit three services on the same tracks?
it's easy, put the locals with locals and put the express with the express, then reduce the amount of trains running so clogged arteries will not happen and then voila! u have service running with no problem
I can see what you mean by reducing the # of trains on Queens Blvd, but then there won't be enough trains on other parts of the line such as 4th Avenue.
There is every indication that if the Q returns to Broadway if and when the south side tracks of The Money Pit reopen, it will terminate at 57th St. Although there are scissor switches between the 6th Ave. and Broadway tracks in the 63rd St. tunnel west of Lexington Ave., a Broadway/63rd St./Queens service pattern is not in the works.
That being said, it's worth reiterating that nothing is etched in stone at this point.
The 57th St. station at Sixth Ave. mandates the 63rd St. line run along Sixth Ave., unless they decide to run multiple lines though the tunnel, or there's construction work in the 60th St. tunnel requiring a GO for the R (or some other weird arrangement, since the R would then come in on the Broadway express tracks at 57th and 7th)
The entire 63rd. St line was designed for the 6th Ave tracks to feed the Queens tunnel and the Broadway express tracks to feed the 2nd Ave. line. Outside of the occasional need to route an R around some problem/trackwork you probably won't ever see Broadway service to Queens via 63rd. St.
Yes, that's correct. If the Q ends up running to Queens via 63rd St. it will do so via 6th Ave. If it returns to Broadway, it will in all likelihood terminate at 57th St.
then what would be the new line through 63rd street and where would it go?
That's the million dollar question. Best guess is a new line (called the V) running local from Forest Hills or 179th St. through the new line and down Sixth Ave. However, no plan has been decided on, so any wild idea can be considered as legitimate as the one I just said.
The 63rd St. line will probably be local from 36th St.-Northern Blvd. to 71st-Continental Ave. Where its southern terminal is depends on the status of the Manny B and where the Q finally ends up.
The Q and V trains will be the new 63 street service to and from Queens Blvd. The V will operate from Chruch Ave.[EXPRESS] to 6 Avenue exprees tracks,to the 63 street tunnel. From there ,it will run as the Queens Blvd exp to 179th street replacing the F. F trains are rerouted to the local tracks to replace the G line. The Q will operate from its present terminal at Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp,over the Manhattan Bridge to the 63 street line via the Broadway Express. From there ,the Q will operate to Jamaica Center or 71 Avenue as the Q/B Express. Over on Bway, a new service[W]will run rush hours from Astoria to Whitehall street to shore up local service with the N returning to Bway express runs. On 6 Ave,B trains will run to 145 st. all times except nights and rush hours. there you go.
Again (we went over this a week ago), running a new V train via 63rd Street and express in Queens and running the F via 53rd Street and then local in Queens means the outbound F will have to cross in front of the N at Queens Plaza, while the inbound F crosses in front of the E between QP and 36th Street. Either way, you create unneccessary delays.
Either the F will stay at the Queens express and the V will run local in place of the G, or the F will run via 63rd to Queens and then local and the V via 53rd and then express, or both trains would have to run via the 63rd St. tunnel, where either could be the local or the express.
That would irk Citigroup, since it would lose half the trains running between its two buildings at 53rd-Lex and at 23rd-Ely. Big corporations with a lot of jobs tend to get the ears of public officials better, say, than G riders living in Greenpoint, so don't expect to see a reduction of service through the 53rd St. tunnel.
Thanks for the info now I know whats going on.,
This plan is full of flaws, especially crossing over local trains from the 53rd. St. tunnel.
But again, NO plan has been comprised. Noone can say they know what service will be, because even the MTA doesn't know when there will be enough new cars for new service, and the Manhattan Bridge repairs will also effect this new service significantly.
TMC/MCI sounds pretty certain of the service plan. However, I can state without reservation that the service plan is still being developed! Maybe TMC/MCI will be right, but nobody on this board should state that he or she knows for a fact what the service plan will be, since the people who are planning it don't know what it will be yet.
David
I can say with some certainty that tcimci's plan will NOT be anything like the actual service plan.
Brooklyn B's and D's ran along Broadway and were designated in yellow. The upper portion of the D, in orange, ran from 205th to 34th St. The B ran from 168th to 34th during rush hours. Both Grand St and 57th/6th were served by a shuttle train running local between these 2 stations.
Here's what we supervisors in Queens have heard so
far Remember--nothing's cast in stone.):
E going back to 179th Street.
Q & B going to Archer Ave.
E/179 St.
R extended to P/A, E or F (unlikely) to P/A midnights.
Q/B to 71 Ave.
An altogether new route, probably V or W, 179 to WTC VIA 6th Ave to W4th St. (E, F & R staying same.)
V or W recreating the old EE, 71 Ave/Whitehall St.
They plan to leave the G at CT SQ 24/7! (Screw those DUMB GREENPOINT RESIDENTS! That's management's attitude!)
How are they planning to add all his serice to the already at-capacity Queens Blvd line? Simple: Shorten the signal blocks to allow more intervals to run at an average speed of <15 MPH! (The current rush hour speed is 19 MPH.)
You can see an example of this under construction around QP. The new IJ locations are approx 50-100 feet apart.
They intend to shorten signal blocks as far as 71 Ave. As we lose service east of there, there is capacity available.
This is cast in stone (blueprints, actually): They're building a new 15 track yard within Sunnyside Yard. They plan to run light all layups from the eastern terminals
to this new yard to get serviced (light repairs) and cleaned. The trains would run back to the terminals for put-ins in the AM. (What a waste of mileage!)
This is being done as Jamaica Yard doesn't have the capacity. Forget about the extension--The yard is on wetlands!
There are plans to build a yard adjacent to the 130 Ave station IF Archer Ave is extended, but that's highly unlikely. (I've seen the prints for the extension-here's the stations: 90Ave, Foch Blvd, 120 Ave, 130 Ave. 120Ave will also have leads to the yard. The plan calls for 3 tracks at each of the 2 stations (2 island plats, something like Boston's Orange Line extension.)
As you say...
The E might return to 179th St?
Will it go back to being local from 71st Cont - to 179th with the F running Express? Or will the F keep running local?
Will the WTC be able to handle another service terminating there? It would make more sense to run the E to Euclid all times or to Rockaway Park?
Frank D
Its probably temporary, alot of Track work on the 8th avenue line.
None of those plans are feasible and I doubt they're serious proposals. WTC is already at capacity with the E line, and Parsons Archer MUST have an express serving it (E or F), due to the thousands of people who use that as a bus/train transfer point from southeastern Queens.
Look for some new service via 6th Ave to service the Queens Blvd. local via 63rd St. That's the blandest, most unoriginal service proposal, meaning it's probably what will be implemented.
There's another important factor here, which supports the 63rd street Queensbound service going local, and not express, along Queens Blvd.
If one of the 53rd street services (currently E or F) becomes a Queens Blvd. local, it would have to cross in front of the 60th street service (currently R) after Queens Plaza. Then if a 63rd street service becomes a Queens Blvd. express, it would have to cross in front of the remaining 53rd street service. That's two "crossings" and my assumption is that it will be avoided to minimize delays.
So while balancing loads through the three tunnels would probably be best served by having a 63rd street tunnel/Queens Blvd. express, it doesn't look good operationally.
You're right. The one that makes the most sense is local via 63rd and express via 53rd. The only question is where does the 63rd St. line go when it reaches Rockefeller Center.
So long as the Q stays on Sixth Ave., it will go express with the B and D, but if they ever get the Manny B back up, in full operation, I would expect the Q to go back to Broadway and the V train to operate Sixth Ave. local with the F. Then you get into the question of whether or not the MTA will split the service in Brooklyn and run one express between Jay Street and Church Ave. and the other local.
Service plans for the 63rd street/Queens Blvd line. 1]V 179 ST to 2 Avenue via 6 ave loc 63 st. Queens Blvd express. 2]E NO CHANGE. 3]F 179 Street to Coney Island via local[all local] 4]R 71-Continental Ave. to 95 st. To 179 rush hours. 5]Q Jamaica Center to Bright Beach rush hours/71 ave. middays evenings to 57 st. This is what I read a year ago.As we all know theses things are not definet by a long shot.
As Todd posted yesterday, if you do that, you've got to switch over the F from the express to the local tracks between Queens Plaza and 36th St., which will cause delays if either an R is at QP headed towards Continental or if an F and E are both headed towards QP from Northern Blvd.
That means either the V will be the local to replace the G or they'll have to switch the V to 53rd St. and run the F through the 63rd St. tunnel. The line is set up so whichever train goes through 53rd St. will have to be the express, unless they want to run both the V and F through 63rd St. and abandon Sixth Ave. service via 53rd St. entirely (which they'll do over Citcorp's dead body).
These service patterns will not get implemented. Only 1 major service change will be in effect when the 63rd. St connection pens, which will be the extension of a new line through 63rd. St via the Queens IND local and the permanent cutback of G service to Court Sq. What this train will be called, or what it's southern terminal will be is still up for debate.
BTW, it wouldn't be Second Ave. Using this station as a terminal would cause an undesireable bottlneck during rush hours. It's why the E won't be using it next mont when the WTC stub is closed.
where will the "E" terminate if WTC is closed? i would suggest using Canal Street as a finals top and sending them empty to the swtich tracks.
The WTC stub will close next week and will be out of service for a month. The crossover switch is being completely replaced. The E will run to Euclid Ave, and the C will be suspended. The E cannot end at Canal St, using that layup track, becuase it cannot turn trains around fast enough during the day. However, the E will use this track late at night, IIRC.
If they run the B to Queens, will it run like it runs now Bronx Days Queens Nights etc???
How do I get in touch with these folks?
I'm with RPC. E-mail me.
The show broadcast from NYC called "I want to be a Millionaire" is taking off by leaps and bounds. They need to put subway and NYC questions on this show like:
What was the first subway line to open in NYC?
a) Woodlawn Line
b) Lexington Avenue Line
c) Flatbush Avenue Line
d) Pelham Line
What bridge was sold my many people?
a) Queensboro Bridge
b) Golden Gate Bridge
c) Verrazano Narrows Bridge
d) Brooklyn Bridge
Great idea!
Also, there's enough history and trivia about New York City Subways that someone could come up with a NYCT TRIVIAL PURSUIT game.
Things tha make you go hmmmmm.....
Doug aka BMTman
What about Subway Monopoly? Someone did ask for suggestions awhile ago.
That would be fun. You jumped the turnstile go to jail do not pass go do not collect $200. But what would the two most expensive things on the board. I will say that they would be the Second Avenue Subway and Manhattan Bridge rebuild. Ha ha ha ha ha. Build the things that the MTA wont! Ha ha ha ha ha.
Christopher Rivera
Actually, the New York Edition of the Monopoly game seems to offer the A, D, and N trains instead of Short Line Railroad. Didn't it once include Metro-North and LIRR as the railroads?
The name of the show is "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
Related trivia question:
Where is Regis Philbin Avenue? It is an officially signed alternate name (blue sign) for a particular block in one of the 5 boroughs of NYC. In which borough, what is the regular name of the street in question, and what are the cross-streets it runs between?
You have to give a choice of four answers and I must have 3 lifelines available. 50-50, ask the audience on subtalk or call the webmaster.
Well, since I can't offer the lifelines, I'll tell you the answer.
Regis Philbin Avenue is in the Bronx. It is otherwise known as Cruger Avenue, between Sagamore Street and Bronxdale Avenue. It is just north of where the Dyre Ave. and White Plains Rd. lines split up - two blocks east of Bronx Park East station.
The Dyre Ave. line crosses the block, with pillars in the street that traffic must zig-zag around. It is the only street on the line where this zig-zag maneuver is needed. I don't know why it was built that way.
The answer to question #1 is none of the above.
The Lexington and Jerome lines opened in 1918, the Pelham and Flatbush opened in 1920.
Hmm, Ed Norton?
This morning, when taking the "Q" train to work, i saw marker graffiti inside the car. I mentioned it to the motorman and he said it can't be removed. the marker graffit is beginning to come back to the r-40's on the "Q" line. I guess this is what we get for the riders on the "q" who lost the R-68 that got sendf to the "B" line and we get the R-40 and there are no plans for us to get new cars here. Hopefully maintence can keep up on the graffiti on these cars because they are starting to look bad.
R68 fan too eh? I like the Q line. I think it would be better to have the R68As back on the Q Line again. First in temperatures like this I'm freezing in the morning. No, I'm not talking about the ones from the yard, I'm talking about the ones that came from Queensbridge. I don't know what it is but sometimes all of a sudden air starts blowing through the railfan window. That's no problem. The problem is when the the air starts wheezing and everyone looks at you. Sure the R40s are faster but I think the B Line needs it more than the Q does. The B line needs all the pep for Central Park West Local. Also 4th Avenue Express can have more trains with railfans.
Well, I never railfan underground. But that's just me.
The car swap between the B and Q was motivated by maintenance concerns--i.e., when the R40s were on the B running seven days a week, they kept breaking down; now that they have weekends off for an extra check-up, they don't break down, and service over the Manhattan Bridge has been much more reliable. So be careful what you wish for.
I'm sure that graffitti CAN be removed, it just requires a little more elbow grease and solvent than what's available at the terminal. They'd probably have to send it back to the Shoppe for a good scrub-down. There they have all the tools and cleaning materials needed to remove it.
And the Slants kick the ass of each and every R68 and R68A. I was on a "B" train back on December 11, made of R68As (our poor old Slant had come up with a busted brake hose) and we never made 35MPH between 36th and Pacific, even under full green. Pathetic. An "R" local dusted us and beat us to Pacific Street.
Wayne
If that R train was R-46s, it's even more insulting.
All the more reason to run those lumbering lardbuckets on local-only routes.
P. S. Did you encourage that B train at all (Come on, you can do it, etc.)?
IT WAS. We were most perturbed by the turn of events and even slower turning of the (square? hexagonal?) wheels. We ground along at a funereal pace, never exceeding 35MPH.
Wayne
I'll bet the Triplexes were turning over in their graves. What a disgrace. That stretch was a racetrack for the slants and R-42s.
A recent article about the retirement of a Plaza Hotel doorman after 53 years had something interesting.
"Another time, Szorentini directed the Fab Four through the hotel's kitchen to a now-sealed passageway into the N-train station. John, Paul, George and Ringo emerged from the station directly into their awaiting limo across the street from the screaming crowds".
Does any trace of this door remain, and is it in the Fifth Avenue station?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have seen this mentioned here before. Apparently there is a locked door in the subway entrance on Central Park South (5th Ave. N/R station) which leads to the Plaza. It was mentioned here that it was for employees, that it led to an employees-only area. I didn't know it was the kitchen until I saw the Post article.
The door's quite obvious as you enter the subway on the south side of 59th St.-- it's big and says "Hotel employees only" or something--so I imagine it's still in regular use by the hotel. You could ask the current doorman about it.
Isn't this a wild flashback! I remember reading in the papers when I was fourteen or fifteen back in '64 or '65 (the old Long Island Press???? Newsday or the Times??) about the Beatles being led through a subway tunnel to avoid the crowds. This must have been it. I remember back then I was trying to picture the Fab Four in their collarless jackets and Beatle Boots being led along a dark and dusty tunnel catwalk to or from an emergency exit!
Should we organize a field trip to find this "secret" passageway? I've been curious about it for a long time!
If so, we would need to see other secret passageways, such as...
--Knickerbocker Hotel connection at Times Square
--Clinton Hall connection at Astor Place
--The rumored connector between Penn Station and the IND/BMT at Herald square. This would be the holy grail of abandoned subway passageways for me, since I've been looking for it with little success.
--The unused Roosevelt Avenue IND station
--Lower City Hall and 42nd St (IND) platforms
--There is a door between the Waldorf and the tunnel north of GCT, it's buried down there. (A sequence in the first Chris Reeve Superman movie is based on its existence)
and many more....
www.forgotten-ny.com
A door/passageway is also referenced in Jon Berson's Foamers, a fictional work about deliberately-staged Amtrak wrecks. I can't find my copy at the moment but I think it may also be the Waldorf door you mention - in any event it's from a spur off the Park Avenue tunnels into a hotel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's two other Brooklyn connections I almost forgot:
The Borough Hall station of the IRT. The Brooklyn Municipal Building has/had a direct entrance into the subway through it's basement. A series of brass-double doors lead into the tokenbooth area (southbound side of the station). I used this a number of times a few years back. It has since been closed (this must've happenned within the last 4-5 years). Either for security reasons or a lack of traffic could I only guess as why it was eliminated.
The Atlantic Avenue station of the Brighton Line: There is a non-unused staircase/entranceway that once lead up into One Hanson Place (the old Williamsburg Savings Bank building). It can be found near the northern-most end of the D/Q platform. It is a fenced off stairwell that looked like a secured doorway into the bank (maybe the vault??? More likely an employee exit).
Doug aka BMTman
>>>It can be
found near the northern-most end of the D/Q platform. <<<
North or southbound platform or is this an island platform?
Although you got me thinking I'm 99% sure Atlantic Av (Brighton) has an Island Platform. I can't believe I'm not 100% sure with all the times I've gotten on there from the LIRR but I guess I'm getting old. The memory is the first to go!!!!
Atlantic Ave on the Brighton is an island platform, due to the line being squeezed between the LIRR and the IRT.....
I'm back at my computer (was away for most of Saturday and this morning).
Kevin, Atlantic Ave. is an island platform. That staircase should be either the very northend staircase or one or two away from the end. Just look for one with a gated fence around it. I recall there was some kind of business nameplate or signage on the door at the top of the stairs.
Kevin, let us know what you find should you investigate the platform.
Doug aka BMTman
If I get a break from job hunting this week I may investigate those stations.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just found the book - it is the Waldorf-Astoria, like I thought. It talks about it being a private siding used by FDR into the Waldorf. Anybody know how much of that is fact and how much fiction?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This website will reveal the real story of the GCT-WA connection.
http://www.darkpassage.com/forays/GrandCentral.htm
That site is so DARK that it cannot be read. The .gif's show up, but the captions are unreadable. It really is a darkpassage.
Nice site! I was able to read the captions (I used Netscape 4.7) and thought they were very well written (a writer by trade?). In the "subway tunnels under Chinatown" I would have liked more descriptions of what they took pictures of. For instance, where was that large trackless space with the train in the background?
Kevin,
The employees door to the Plaza Hotel is halfway down the subway staircase at the Central Park South entrance. (A niche in the Plaza) It is not abandoned, employees still use it, however that subway entrance is closed on weekends, something me and my 3 yr old son Arthur found out on a very cold day when we had to walk to 60th & 5Av. The passageway between the Herald Square Station and Penn Station is not a rumor. I used it many times as a teen in the late 60's, early 70's. It was right near the Path Terminal and at Penn it was at the E/S of the IRT station at 33rd & 7th Av.(opposite the token booths) That is why the crossover under the IRT tracks are outside of the fare control. If I remember correctly the passageway had store windows all along its length. The funny thing is I still look for it to use it forgetting its closed.
I seem to remember the Herald Sq-Penn Station tunnel from when I was a kid as well. When I started working in Manhattan about 10 years ago, I recall my father (who worked in NYC in the 60's) telling me to use that shortcut. Of course, I never found it.
It's my understanding that it was closed off with the construction of A&S Plaza (now Manhattan Mall).
I thought they may have closed it because it became Muggers and Homeless Central...
I used that passageway often in the 1970's. If I recall correctly, thre were stores and stands along the way. It was a fun tunnel to walk through, not like the one under 14th Street between 6th to 8th Avenues. (The portion between 7th and 8th Avenue is closed, but the tunnel is still there.
The portion between 7th and 8th is used an an emergency exit corridor for various transit offices and training schools located in the 6th to 7th and 7th to 8th passageway. It is also used for storage.
Many closed passageways and mezzanines which have been reduced in size (Such as as second ave. or East Broadway or 145 IND Manhattan) have been converted to office space or a police precinct(145 IND).
They did that at Van Vyck Blvd several years ago, they put in a police substation where the closed off mezzanine was. I feel much safer having them there.
Wasn't there a connection from the basement of the A&S (now Macy's) on Fulton St. in Downtown Brooklyn to the platform at Hoyt Street. I seem to remember this before the station was rebuilt in the 80's.
Doug aka BMTman
There were showcase windows, I'm not sure about a connection. Someone else answered this a month or two ago but I don't remember what they said - hopefully they'll chime back in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes- there was an entrance from the store. You had the street floor, basement and then the subway floor. You exited the store and came to the station's booth. After paying the far, this passageway served as a crossunder between the two wall platforms. As late as 1979 it was open but in 1983 I found it closed. (Meaning it closed between 1979 and 1983).
Further reminiscing reminds me of the ice cream stand which seerved sof ice cream in a tall glass with flavored syrup-- like a Frappe?
This too was gone in 1983.
I moved from NYC in 1966 and returned on vacation in 1979 and 1983 and to stay in 1994 (NJ is still closer than Memphis.) and Yes- I want to move back to the city.
Thanks, Peg. I now know I wasn't going crazy. I recall my mother also used to talk about going from the store right into the subway. But I would have thought that the A&S basement was on the SAME LEVEL as the subway platform? You make it sound as though the subway was ANOTHER LEVEL beneath the A&S basement. Which is correct?
I see you remember Hoyt Street station very well. I have vague memories of the A&S connection there. Probably due to the fact that I was more a BMT rider (YEAH!) than IRT in my youth.
Doug aka BMTman
While we're at it, what about the Museum of Natural History? There used to be a direct entrance from the subway. You now have to get out of the subway at the 81th St exit and walk to the museum. The funny thing is that the subway entrance is still on the floorplan brochure that they give you at the museum.
Jeffrey, I believe the Museum direct entrance has reopened. It was closed for renovation. When I was a youngster, my father would take me to the Museum frequently. We lived near the Concourse line in the Bronx, so I got a good introduction to Homeball Alley.
The musuem entrance is temporarily closed (By the museum) duye to renovations on the museum's lower level.
A & S : it wasd a floor below the basement
The 77th St exit is open again (though relabeled "78th St." through somebody's over-precision--sure, it's where 78th St. would be, but the closest existing street is 77th), but they're still working on the Museum's subway lobby, so to get into the Museum go out at 77th and around the corner. (Somehow the lines there are always shorter than the ones at the Central Park West entrance; of course, the subway lobby always used to have the shortest lines of all.)
The animal mosiacs they're putting in on the platforms are really delightful. There was a thread a few weeks ago about how station rehabs were a waste of money; I continue to think a project like this, which changes a station near a major attraction from a dingy, intimidating environment to something more cheerful and welcoming, is worth the expense. The new lighting alone is a significant improvement.
"The animal mosiacs they're putting in on the platforms are really delightful. There was a thread a few weeks ago about how station rehabs were a waste of money; I continue to think a project like this, which changes a station near a major attraction from a dingy, intimidating environment to something more cheerful and welcoming, is worth the expense. The new lighting alone is a significant improvement."
I whole-heartedly agree. Having just moved from the area, I used to frequent both the 86th street and 81st street stations. What a difference in the feeling of dreariness at 86 versus the bright light and color at 81. There are so many families with children using that station on the weekends, that I can't help but believe the station rehab is going to help ensure that those families use the subway for other trips around the city. Now the subway is part of the fun, rather than the eerie dark scary thing 81st used to be. Maybe it'll make a few future railfans as well.
Chuck
It WAS at the basement level, in what had been the men's shoe department. The opening still exists on the S.B. Hoyt St platform, behind the big, black rolldown door towards the south end of the plat.
The A&S connection was an exit from the store's lower level (bargain basement - 1 flight down) to the platform level.
Lower City Hall - the staircase to access is towards the north end of the plat, just across from the dispatcher. Having spent Mon and Tues mornings down there over the summer for my put-in, trust me, you ain't missing much: 2 ill-repaired island plats, 3 tracks (one unelectrified) and a whole lot of dust.
.... --The unused Roosevelt Avenue IND station
As soon as I can, I want to get to Dave some snapshots off my video of this station. It's a fully completed station complete with tilework and incandescent lighting. It's used for storage now so much of the platform is obstructed. The trackways exist and lead to a crossover, then about 700' more, to a dead end. There's also a ramp connecting this trackway to the Manhattan bound Queens Blvd local track immediately east of the Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights station.
--Mark
What is the major construction project for this summer:
in 1998 we had the Lenox Reconstruction
in 1999 we had the Willie B Closure
what will it be this year?
ps- did anyone see the article in today's Daily News " C you later" about the disruption of A C E for one month.
A few days ago, some of the folks around here were saying that it would be the closure of Stillwell Avenue for reconstruction. I haven't seen anything "official", but rumors posted on SubTalk have a pretty high batting average.
Chuck
In the Brooklyn Edtion of the Daily News, the Clark St Station (2/3) will be closed for about 4 mos for elevator replacement.............
3TM
Hopfully they'll adjust the elevator door at the fare control area. That thing moves like an R-10 on CPW, and if you don't know how fast it closes...
The trip was a success. Someones needs to post photos.
Today, while with school car, I observed a 5 car set of r-142's running N/B on the middle track between Morris Park and Dyre Av. They appeared to be running under there own power. They look beautiful, red mask and all.
That's great. What speed were they going at?
Sorry, we were running Southbound. I was not operating at the time so I did not see them untill they were passing us. I would venture a guess and say they were moving at a pretty good clip.
I know it is snowing in New York City and very cold. Under these adverse conditions the R142A are running like you say. CONGRATULATIONS ARE IN ORDER FOR NYCT, KAWASAKI AND ALL ITS SUBCONTRACTORS.
GREAT! GREAT! GREAT!
I WILL GIVE IT 10 years it wont last !!!!
I'll give it ten years before you're finally committed to the psychiatric institution you belong.
go and post your own note i nominate you to the creedmor psychiatric institution .... where you go to !!!!
and please !!!!! dont wait ten yers please !!! go now !!!
CALM DOWN ,DUDES WILL YA ? LOVE PEACE AND HAIRGREASE!!!
i 100 % agree with you ( come on guys chill out ) i am sorry sometimes i have to defend myself !!!
peace love AND RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!!
01/22/2000
" peace love AND RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!!"
In that order ??
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Mr. TMC/MCI
YOU! Post It Note! KNOCK IT OFF! If you don't like what Willie has to say about the new Tin Cans, then DON'T RESPOND TO IT!
We have had enough discord and arguing here lately. It's time to put a cork in it. Look what happened over at BusTalk - so much bile there the entire board got reset.
Wayne
R-142 Wiring Problems
There were plans origionally made to introduce te 142's
to the public as "The Millennium Train".
There was only one little problem--They couldn't get the doors to open!
It seems that the first group of cars were assembled in a hurry and several wiring harnesses were incorrectly installed. Also, the wiring to one air brake compressor was completely forgotten!
When door buttons were operated in either open or close, the only thing happening was a "Please stand clear of the closing doors" computer-generated annoucement!
I was told this info by 2 RCI's and 1 foreman.
They also told me that Bombardier has hired low paid (unskilled) labor to assemble the cars.
01/24/2000
OH BOY! It's a matter of time when "Mr.Willie" hears about this!
Bill Newkirk
How about the Japanese made 142s?
it was already testes on the #2 7th Ave. express. remember the prototype from 1992?
You can't judge fully the performance of the production units based on a single prototype unit.
-Hank
true. the prototype was tested to make it better for production. but why test them anyway? if they test them and they come out bad then that's a waste of heeping greens. i don't think they are going to test it anyway.
Technically speaking, it wasn't a true prototype. It was really a technology test bed. THey were looking to see what would and wouldn't work with the future equipment orders.
-Hank
i heard the same thing about the problem with the r142's from Canada. they corrected the problem now.
01/22/2000
" I WILL GIVE IT 10 years it won't last"
OKAY WILLIE! I'll raise you 5 and give them 15 years, do I hear 20 years? 20 years ,do I hear 25 years??
Bill Newkirk
I bid FORTY-FIVE.
01/23/2000
You bid 45, that's funny, Joe Hofmann bids 70 or 80 years !!
Bill Newkirk
the 142s last 40 years like the redbirds did ?? no way !!!!! ill give them 10 years then ""S"" SCRAP !!!
Didn't Mr. Willie say, a week or two back, that he would stop saying the R-142s would only last 10 years?
David
Would you learn some new goddamned worda already???? 55 posts, every one of them has you repeating this crap like a 2-year-old asking his mom for a new toy!
Can I have it Mommy? Mommy? Buy it for me Mommy! Can I have it Mommy? Mommy? Buy it for me Mommy! Can I have it Mommy? Mommy? Buy it for me Mommy! Can I have it Mommy? Mommy? Buy it for me Mommy!
Over and over again!
Your goddamned act is old, and has worn through, is is grating on the last nerves that many of us have had with you. PUT UP OR SHUT UP. You DON'T live in NY, you haven't SEEN a NY Subway car in years, yet you are repeatedly stating that new subway cars won't last, MARTA doors freze shut, and LACMTA is horrible, and excessive use of exclamation points. All RIGHT! We GET IT!! Go tell someone ELSE already!!!
-Hank
they will not last ONE HALF as long as the REDBIRDS are still doing !!!!!
Would you say that if they had a railfan window???
that would be nice !! then i could shoot my vidieo camera out of it !! but i just dont believe that QUALITY (is)
not something shiny and BRAND NEW does not mean it will last and stand the TEST OF TIME ...
the redbirds lasted 40 years !!!! the 142s will last how long ?????????
Probably longer, since the main problem the redbirds are suffering is corrosion and the new cars are made of stainless steel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/22/2000
HERE WE GO AGAIN !! The return of the Jerry Springer inspired R-142 life span of Mr.Willie versus the SubTalkers !!
DEJA VU ??
Bill Newkirk
Michael,
You didn't happen to be on the school car running back and forth between E180th St and Jackson Av on Track M were you? I was looking out my window in the projects and noticed a T/O dumped his train southbound at the homeball north of Jackson on M Track.
It nice to hear that the R142s are running. Now it's time to see them in person....
-Stef
Excuse me, but what exactly is a school car?
School Car is a term used to apply to a train being used for the purpose of teaching new train operators on how to operate the particular equipment in question.
-Stef
No, that was not my class, we ran Dyre to Bowling Green twice.
The R 142 / R 142A cars (5) car sets, 7 motors, are rated at 150hp.AC.each.
I was in Plattsburgh for a week. These cars hum. They can travel up to 55 mph at an average of 2.5 mph per sec. and brake at 3.5mph per sec.
The braking system uses a blended brake above 40 mph.(Dynamic and friction. Between 40 & 9 mph., it is strictly dynamic. Between 9 & 3 mph. It uses a blended brake again. Dynamic will drop out at 3 mph., leaving you with a friction brake.
These babys are smooth as silk. As far as durability goes, that is only a test New Yorkers can give. And you know they can be very unforgiving.
does this mean that Car Equip won't lower the top operating speed once the cars are in revenue service?
The R-142 and R-142A performance parameters are adjustable in software, making it easier and faster for shop forces to change acceleration rates and top speed in response to changing operational needs.
David
That is absolutely correct.
I Dont know if they will remain that fast, but it sure felt good to move in one if and when they change it.
It sort of reminds me of the old days as a t/o.
Too bad the new guys will never get that feeling.
Mr Q. when you were in Plattsburgh, you were on the Bombardiers. Will these Kawasakis move and brake the same way? Lord knows the 62s and 62As don't.
Anyhow it doesn't make sense having faster rolling stock when more and more GT's have been and continue to be installed systemwide. The Pelham line is grade timed to the point of absurdity! I can just imagine when the White Plains line is completed??!!! Lexington Avenue is seeing some new GT's installed 3 track entering 125th st used to be a fine stretch till the new timers were installed no recently entering Fulton Street on 3 track 25 mph timer just installed..
I agree it is Crazy with all those GT'S on the Pelham Line. It takes the Fun out of Train Operation. I use to like the Good old days when you where able to fly into Parkchester. It seems like the only good line for some speed my be the No.1 Line but that may even change.
that is so true! because of this, what is the need of testing them?!
Hi, I like to know why the two hand control and single controller seem so different when it come to braking. On the two handle controls the train seem to slow and come to a complete stop quickly. On the single controllers the train seem to slow down then coast a little, slow again, coast, slow, coast and then come to a very slow stop. Is the
braking proceedure different? I heard that you need more experience to operate the single controller. True? Anyone have experience?
Also anyone been on a Redbird when it went into emergency? I tell you those things can stop on a dime. People go flying.
One of the marginally functional improvements on the R44 was a type of anti-lock brake. It was supposed to automatically pump the brakes to prevent the wheels from locking and thus avoid flat wheels. After a few trains went past platforms and a couple added flat spots in their anticlimbers they supposedly deactivated this feature as a safety hazard.
Perhaps with reduced operating speeds, somebody thought this technological wonder might again be useful.
The feature in the R-44s was called a Decelostat.
David
A few years back, I remember that there were almost always slants on the B line. Now many of them are R68s. The N train, however, used to be R68s. There are still some R68s around but there are more slants and R38s around. Can anybody tell me why this change was made?
The R68A cars were shifted off the N and Q because the B train needed cars with transverse cabs so that OPTO service on the West End shuttle could begin. Another reason was that the older R40 slants were more suited to a part-time line, easing wear and tear. The R40 slants that were on the B are now on the Q, and a few are now on the N.
As a Brighton express rider, I'm thrilled. Those slants really take advantage of the potential speeds possible on that line.
Don't those slants at the front take up a few square feet of space that could be used for something else? There's about 4-5 feet between the front/rear doors of the two cars. In the R68As, there's about 1-1 1/2 ft.
They make them more aerodynamic, I guess. They are the ugliest but most beautiful cars in the system.
And those are R32s on the "N". All the R38s (which are similar) are over on the "A" and "C" lines, working out of 207th Street and Pitkin-Yards.
Wayne
You bet they do! I just love it when a Q train blows past a D train or two, or three, along the Brighton line.
You should have seen the slants when they ran on the A in the late 70s. I remember thinking, son of a gun, these suckers could almost outrun the R-10s.
OK, subtalkers, put these in order of your favorites, taking into consideration cleanliness, on-time performance, station and equipment design and overall reliability...I'll mix the MTA, New Jersey routes and Port Authority lines as well.
1) MTA subway system (include the SIR in this just for the sake of it)
2) MTA New York City buses
3) MTA Long Island Bus
4) Metro North
5) LIRR
6) Staten Island Ferry
7) PATH trains
8) NJT buses
9) NJT trains
10) Queens/Bklyn Green Line buses
11) Queens Red buses
12) Command buses
13) Westchester Bee Line buses
14) Olympic Line buses
15) any ferry line of your choice
16) whatever I've left out
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Staten Island Ferry is at the bottom of the list- filty, unreliable, late, terminals designed poorly and in disrepair. Homeless
hangout and make a mess in the terminals and ferries day in and day out. Westchester Liberty Lines and New York Bus Service are at the top of the list for cleanlieness and maintenance of their busses, on time performance I cannot say much about since I haven't been riding their busses for 5 years since I moved to Staten Island. Command has improved since they got new Orion Busses- but will that last if they do not maintain them? The same goes for Queens Surface, Triboro, and Green Bus Lines. SIR is 99 percent on time as long as passengers don't hold doors. Teens are starting trouble and destroying the trains which has caused some to be taken out of service enroute. NJT for the most part is on time and well maintained. NYC Transit has improved but still needs more equiptment so service can increase. As a conductor, I know first hand when I cannot close the doors down in a timely manner because customers cannot fit in the trains and continue to push themselves in. This delays service on my train and all the others behind mine. Some lines are at capacity- E and F lines. There are very little improvements that can be made to service on these lines since they run at 3 to 5 minute intervals during rush hour. The same goes for the Lexington Ave Lines- 4, 5 , and 6. Trains must have proper spacing between them.
Well I've rode on LIRR, LI Bus, NYCT buses and subways, and SIR.
I probably would rank NYCT transit buses (especially in Staten Island)
with the most timely, reliable service compared to Queens and Manhattan (plus they have mostly new buses on S.I)
NYC subways beat the LIRR anyday. It seems everytime I ride the LIRR there's always some sort of problem, so my preference is the subway, which for the most part, is reliable.
The Staten Island Railway rates poor in my book when to comes to clean and comfortable trains. The trains have poor heat and ride like hell. The SI Ferry is old and depressing, however the ones I have been on run on time. But I do feel there should be a rail link between SI and Manhattan.
Long Island Bus probably has just about the worst bus service in the NYC Metro area. Most routes have 30 minute headways, and some have once an hour headways. Service to certain malls that aren't major transfer points (like Broadway, Sunrise, and Green Acres) definately needs improvement. On Sunday schedule you can forget about going to any mall with LI Bus, since service on most routes is once an hour.
The last buses leaving are usually always full with standees, especially evident at Roosevelt Field.
I think Nassau definately needs the level of bus service Staten Island gets. In S.I. I never had to stand on the bus, or wait too long, since most bus routes run every 15 to 20 minutes.
So the best rail service in the NY Metro area would definately be the NYC subway system, reliable, tight headways on most lines, and gives people many different options. Worst rail service, well that's no suprise, it's the LIRR. It seems LIRR has bad trains that are unreliable, and a track/signal system very prone to bad weather.
Best bus service is probably in Staten Island and Queens, even though Stengal's buses may be stinky the new service improvements make bus service fairly frequent in Queens. Manhattan buses are clean and dependable, but traffic often causes major bunching problems.
Worst bus service is on Long Island. LI ain't too friendly to those who like mass transit. Most north-south LI Bus routes run only once an hour and always run 10 minutes late (like the N27). Also most of these buses stop running after 7pm, with no Sunday service. East-west ones (like the N20/21,N22,N24,N4,N6,N70,71,72) run half-hourly, with more frequent rush hour service, these routes are better. These routes run on Sundays as well.
Suffolk County Transit makes LI Bus look good, since SCT does not accept Metrocards and has no Sunday service, I need not say anymore.
Queens Surface has nice reliable service and those beautiful new Orion CNG buses with padded seats, they are my favorite DOT bus line. Green lines is the worst, the Q60 has the worst on time perfomance.
But by far, the LIRR is worse than anything in the MTA. The LIRR is so bad that your train is usually always late, and lately, that's been an extra 30-60 min delay, because LIRR don't believe in switch heaters.
Plus, no heat/no A/C and overflowing bathrooms present a real health hazard to passengers. Will the LIRR ever clean up it's act?
My ranking:
1) PATH
2) Metro North
3) NYC subway
93,568,236,358,662,856,937,576) LIRR
I don't know enough about the other systems to give an opinion.
[93,568,236,358,662,856,937,576) LIRR]
You rated it that high?!!
Everybody keeps knocking the LIRR. I ride it frequently and have been using it for most of my 46 years and I don't have any real problems with it. The main problems are air conditioning malfunctions which only bothers me during heat waves and the failure to clean the old diesel windows and cars. For the most part the employees are professional. The trains travel much faster than the subways and you usually get a railfan window on the M1's and M3's.
The main problem with the LIRR is the messy cars, but that's an indictment of the typical LIRR rider, who fouls the cars faster than the cleanup crews can stay ahead of them...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I agree that the LIRR has a reputation much worse than it really deserves. In my 40+ years of riding the LIRR, I too have found the employees courteous and professional and the trains usually arrive within 10 minutes of when they're supposed to.
The major problems are dirty cars, which is mostly the passengers' fault and smelly restrooms, which is management's fault. The failure to clean the windows on the soon-to-be-phased-out diesels was also a major mistake.
Can't say as I've taken many of those bus lines (does Liberty Lines count?), but ..
re: Queens Red (Queens Surface Transit), I have a beef with them ever since I've been working in Maspeth, living in the S. Bx/Morris Hts., and had no car. My supposed daily route: #4 Train @ 161 St to #7 Train to Hunterspoint Ave., where I'm to catch the notorious Q67.
I SPECIFICALLY call ahead for schedule information, having them fax me a copy to my job, and they changed it as of the new millenium, just as I figured out which fudge factors to add for my stop, depending on the weather & the hour. When I asked why copies of the new schedule weren't placed on the buses before that long week in-between Christmas and the New, poor Robert Spiller (the only soul who picks up the phone @ Cust Svc) has no answer or power to do anything.
They also changed the driver on the popular rush hour bus - the one I used to call the 8:47, b/c that blessed man would always wait until 8:47 to depart, no matter how long the trip between Queens Plz and 41ST/21 Ave took. Now THAT's reliability!
I also used to beef at Robert whenever I was standing on a dark and lonely night waiting for the return trip bus, only to have the driver whizz by me. Not that whichever driver didn't see me - once I stood in the middle of the street waving my arms. He swerved around me and kept speeding.
At any rate, I call it my supposed daily route, b/c I inevitably continue on the #7 to 46 St and take a cab the rest of the way, and no one at my job will let me wait for a return bus since it's been winter anyway.
I hate to get back on the road (I'm an aggressive driver and I prefer our environment with public transportation), but I will soon be buying a car again.
I think it would be nice if the Red and Green could post their schedules at the bus stops, like the MTA.
1) Path
2) Metro North
3) NYC subway
4) Staten Island Ferry
5) NJT trains
6) LIRR
7) Queens Surface
8) Command
9) MTA Long Island Bus
As for the rest, I have never taken.
Clark
1) MTA subway system
2) Metro North
3) MTA New York City buses
4) Westchester Bee Line buses
5) LIRR
6) PATH trains
7) NJT trains
8) NJT buses
9) Staten Island Ferry
Groucho Marx on "You Bet Your Life" would ask contestants a consolation question so that they shouldn't leave the show empty-handed before the "nice parting gifts" came into the lingo of game shows. One of the more famous ones was
WHO IS BURIED IN GRANT'S TOMB?????
Technically every contestant got it wrong because they said "Grant" not "Mr. & Mrs Ulysses S. Grant"
How much did they win ?
a - $ 10
b - $ 25
c - $ 50
d - $ 100
Remember these are all large sums in the early 50's ... I think the answer is "C" (Can anyone confirm this?)
For a bonus - Where is Grant's Tomb and how to you get there - by mass transit, of course.....
It's on Riverside Drive in the lower 120s. You take the M5 bus or take the 1/9 to 125 Street.
The Daily News have an article about the suspended C service. Or should I say the "sacrificial lamb" service according to the article......
3TM
When Fulton St riders see service with the E line they may want to keep it rather than see resumption of C service.
In Wednesday Brooklyn Edition in the Daily News, there is an article stating that the Clark St Station will close for elevator repairs. Time of closure is four months. A date for closure have not been dedided but they are targeting April.....
3TM
Yikes. What will all those snooty white yuppies do for 4 whole months?
They will have to walk over to High-Street/Brooklyn Bridge station and mingle with the "A" and "C" riders. Poor things.
Wayne
The headline in the one of the Brooklyn local papers made it sound more omnious: "Clark Street Station to Close". They made it sound as if MTA was going to close it premanently (there indeed were some rumors to that effect, since the Clark Street station does low-volume traffic as it is).
Doug aka BMTman
I would assume the installment of new elevators at Clark St. would lay those rumors to rest ...
What should one thing have to do with another? Didn't the same management lengthen the downtown Worth St platform to accept 10 cars before closing it?
I don't think the platform was lenghtened for 10 car trains, but it was lengthened.
It sure was.
No. That would have been different management. I doubt that anyone involved with closing Worth St is still hanging around making decisions.
The Worth Street station should be resurrected, with platform extensions going north from the existing station on the uptown side. And yes, they WOULD need a gap-filler there. I say reopen it.
Wayne
>> The headline in the one of the Brooklyn local papers made it sound more omnious: "Clark Street Station to Close". They made it sound as if MTA was going to close it premanently (there indeed were some rumors to that effect, since the Clark Street station does low-volume traffic as it is).
Can't say I'd blame them if they did close it, as long as some of the stairs at Borough Hall were widened for the additional traffic.
I worked this station twice. Both times two of the three elevators went out (fortunately no one on board) and I had huge crowds at platform ,lower mezzanine and street level. I was able to maintain order through repeated intercom annoucements and a call to eleavtor maintenance and the station supervisor. Police came by on routine patrol and helped keep order.
I did hold my breath both times since the last eleavtor working was acting strange . and I did have it checked since repair was on the scene).
To answer an unasked question: all elevator deep stations have an emergency stairway exit to the street near the elevators. They are usually kept locked and must be opened by supervision or police since they are often "invaded" by homeless or druggies. While I did not use the stairway, I saw the one at Clark and it is dark and dreary- looks like a service stairway at old office buildings, and contained numerous switchbacks.
I use the stairway all the time because of how crapy the elevators are at Clark. It is dreary and usually has two homeless men in it but it is more reliable then going into the elevator. There are probably 15 cutbacks but I can usually do the whole staircase in about 3 1/2 minutes.
-Harry
I agree with crappy elevators. I have been through every station in the system and ridden all the elevators--old and new. The ones at Clark seem to be the worst. They often jerk and jump and the doors slam.
The article said that there are seven stations accessible by elevator only. I only counted six: 168, 181, 191 on the 1/9, 181, 190 on the A and Clark. Where's the seventh?
That isn't quite correct. 181 and 190 on the A along with 191 on the 1 do not require elevators from all entrances. (They each have "side exits" which go out the side of the hills/mountains/whatchamacallits that they run under.
Perhaps someone was considering Court Street on the N/R as the seventh station. The entrance closer to Manhattan is accessible only by elevator (or a dreary staircase as described by Subway-buff, complete with requisite stairway dwellers).
Chuck
Just out of curiousity...
Are the elevators in these stations similar to the elevators one would find in, say, an office building, or is there something special about them for their use in high-volume applications typically found in transit?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
I dont know the mechanical, but from a passenger standpoint they resemble freight elevators in office buildings- very wide- strictly utilitarian and as a safety measure they have an elevator operator. (Elevator operator jobs are restricted duty jobs for cleaners. A restricted duty job is transit's version of light duty. You need transit's doctors to decide for you to be classed as restricted duty.)
While the stations are open replacement is ongoing at 181, 191 on the 1 and 181 and 190 on the A. 168 has been done. Court Street's are also being done.
Figured they would be something like that, but I wasn't certain. Thanks for the info.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
01/23/2000
Speaking of elevators, wasn't there one for the Flushing Line at Grand Central station? Or was that where the current escaltors are now?
Bill Newkirk
Yes. The elevators were taken out at GC prior to the 1964 World's Fair and replaced with escalators in order to increase passenger movement to and from the Flushing Line.
The passenger elevators are mostly by Otis although there are Armors (at 168th Street) and the newer ones are Dovers. They're not that pretty although they have brushed sheet steel interiors and flourescent light (not too bright).
Wayne
[In Wednesday Brooklyn Edition in the Daily News, there is an article stating that the Clark St Station will close for elevator repairs. Time of closure is four months.]
Ha ha ha ha ha! I'll say at least a year.
Huh? I thought the A would run express south of 145th at least. Running the A local down CPW 24/7 is STUPID! I just noticed this on the WWOR TV news.
A line will run express to 145th Street than local to 168st. I don't watch WWOR Ch 9 News & i only watch FOX Ch 5 & WABC Ch 7 News. Those are the best News.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I hope so. This is the first I've heard of this.
New York Times article about the service change:
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-subway-line.html
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Those who still want to read the article today (or for the next ninety days) can e-mail me.
Who said they would do that? According to the Daily News article I read, the A will run local on CPW starting at 9 PM (when the B stops running). The A will, however, run local 24/7 between 145th and 168th Streets.
Also, B service during rush hour is supposed to be increased. But that would presumably mean decreasing service on the D or Q, since the Manhattan Bridge and 6th Ave. express track are already at capacity (aren't they?).
I saw this on the channel 9 news. It had some official explaining the reroutes, and he was pointing out that the A would replace the C along CPW, making all stops.
From the service notice on the website, it looks like there will only be one local service along CPW. The B during it's normal hours (roughly 6AM - 9PM), the A during it's normal local hours (about 11PM - 6AM) and the A express will make local stops north of Columbus Circle once the B stops running (9-11 PM).
I agree that it would be pointless to run the A local during rush hour -- particularly the AM rush. Between students and people going to work, there's no room to fit anymore people aboard the A once it leaves 125 southbound.
Chuck
anychance they will run the B until 11 or midnight?
In order for the B to do this, then the Q will have to run during those times. It's a good idea!
There will be a shuttle train from broadway Lafayette to 21st Queensbridge via 63rd street tunnel making all stops.
Late nights this is signed as B (in orange) but might be signed as some other letter since the B will be running to 168 till 9pm.
The A will be making all stops in Manhattan on weekends.
-Hank
"The A will be making all stops in Manhattan on weekends"
Are you sure? From my interpretation of the Service Notices on the website, the A will only make all stops when the B isn't running on CPW. Since the B will be running up CPW (at least during the day and evening), that would mean the A would run express.
CPW doesn't need two local services on the weekend. That would be better service than it gets now (not that it deserves any more than it gets now).
Chuck
Between the press getting VERY wrong, the TA Web site being confusing to say the least, for all we can tell, the C will be replaced by a train of Almond Joys.
-Hank
Well, the wheels would make an interesting noise as they clanked over the ties going down the track, and the ensuing GO for roadbed replacment between 168th St. and Euclid would probably get a few of the top brass at Jay Street axed, so it's not a bad idea.
I'd settle for the museum R-1/9 train.
B service to be increased: supposedly all but 30 cars from the C fleet will be sent to the E, with the other 30 cars to the B. Maybe the extra 3 trains will come from Second Ave and not Brooklyn and go into service at W4 St. Haven't seen the B supplement schedule tho. I caught the tail end of the Ch. 9 report as I had just arrived home from work and Ch. 9 was filming at WTC during one of my daily visits there. Yes, I thought I heard Al O'Leary or some TA spokesman say the A would go local on CPW during the day . As far as I know this is false according to the posters in the stations and cars. The A will stop at 155 St. and 163 St. all day except Sat & Sun when the B will be rerouted to 168 St. Based on the woeful on time performance of the B, and that will be the only CPW local all day, the slightest delay in service will necessitate to reroute an A train to the local 59 to 125 to pick up the slack.
If the B will run to 168th on Weekends, what will happen to 63rd Street?
A shuttle train would probably run, much like it does late at night.
If the additional rush hour B's are going downtown AM and uptown PM, there won't be so much conflict on the Manhattan Bridge, since the heavier D and Q service will be going in the opposite direction. It might mean a few less AM downtown Ds because of the merge at Columbus Circle, though.
Actually, I was wondering:
Suspending the C seems far too drastic, especially to solve a problem that has nothing to do with the C. Couldn't the E have just operated thru West 4th interlocking and turned at 2nd Av? Or the C, if there are too many E's?
Of course, that would also mean removing the B-shuttles from 2nd Av. That could easliy be done with a full-time B/Q swap (oy!).
Using Second Ave. to terminate trains creates an unnacceptable bottleneck on the F line during rush hours. However, I dont see the problem with running a few, limited C trains during the rush hour in the peak direction only, like they did with the #2 line during the Lennox rehab.
The problem with that is the World Trade Center.
-Hank
The A supposed to be local after 9pm.... If the B is going to 168 during weekends, what service will be going to 21St??????
3TM
A Shuttle. 21-St Queensbridge - B'way Lafayette
while looking out the railfan window of a R32 N train tonight, i was looking at the wheel detectors between dekalb ave. and pacific st. all i saw was just the lights, but what wheel detectors look like? are they located underneath the signal for them?
laterz
blackdevl
I received a videotape of #7 Redbirds from Salaam yesterday. My first impression is that he put a lot of effort on videotaping on the Flusing Line.
Since I am also a camcorder user and use it on NYC subways, Salaam's tape is remarkably stable, and the resolution is pretty good. As heypual mentioned earlier, the night scene is remarkable. His tape is a good lesson for me to improve my camcording techniques.
My only complaint is that he can avoid shooting against sunlight. One of my principles about photography is to avoid shooting against sunlight unless the background is dramatic like sunset.
Anyway, a good piece of work. You have to give him credit.
Chaohwa
How did you get it? I have ridden the 7 line but never at night and it will be great to see it from the front of a redbird. Is it the entire length of the line? Cause if it is I want it!
Christopher Rivera
Yeah, it's incredible footage and is indeed THE ENTIRE RIDE!
MR. WILLIE has done and excellent job with his video expertise. Sometimes he gets our collective goats with the way he posts, but I can't find fault with his passion for RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!!!!!
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Where can I get a copy of his Flushing Line, and does he have one on the Brighton?
He's got one on the Q train I'm thinking about getting.
Alan Glick
That s even better, I d rather have that one Por favor
Just e-mail MR. WILLIE.
DO YOU LIKE THE ""Q"" LINE ???? I GOT IT !!
ALL RIGHT MR DOUG BMT MAN !!! I LIKE YOUR SITE ALSO !!!!!
SEE !!!! THIS IS WHAT I WAS AND AM STILL TALKING ABOUT !! WELCOME ABORD !!!
THE RAIL-FAN-WINDOW CLUB ! JUMP IN THE WATERS FINE !!!!
Yes, there are several round trips from Times Square to Flushing in day, night, clouds, rain, and sunlight.
You can ask Salaam about it. Although he has different views, he is a very nice man.
Chaohwa
Hello, my name is Paul. I like the New York City subway System and someday I hope to become a Train Operator. I have riden on the Flushing line many times. I enjoy riding the Subway and the 7 line. I would like to know do you sell copies of your video, and if not do you know anyone who does? Please send your answers To E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com. Thank you.
The copyright of the video belongs to Salaam, a.k.a., Mr. Willie. You can contact him about that.
Chaohwa
Paul ...
I also have subway videos available, including a cab ride on the Flushing Express in the morning rush hour. A description of all the videos I have is available.
And since a new year has started, it's time I add some new ones to the list. They'll be forthcoming in a few weeks.
Any questions, post or e-mail me.
And to think it all started because 6 years ago, someone saw me videotaping the "A" train in Rockaway and asked if he could purchase a copy.
--Mark
Anyone got videos of a roundtrip stroll
on a 1/9 IRT? Ditto the name.
if the number # 1 - 9 has a railfan window i can do it this march 2000 when i re visit for three days !!
I don't have a round trip 1/9 video, but I do have a Lo-V fantrip that ran on the express tracks from Chambers Street to 96th St, then via the 1/9 to Van Cortlandt Park.
Check out the list here.
--Mark
I wouldn't mind ordering one, but my parents would think I was crazy if they see it come through the mail.
That's OK ... my wife think's its unbelievable that I get orders for videotapes from subway railfans, both local and distant!
--Mark
why ???? if hey give you permission !!! enjoy it !!!
Why would the parents need to give permission for their child to watch a G rated film.
I can rent anything I want from the video store. I can go to the video store with porn and probably rent from there too.
Not a good day today. I had to work a day tour today after 4hrs sleep from a 4x12. (See, the NYPD can be almost as bad as transit) Going out to my car at 6:00 I realized I should've got a new battery before the cold spell!!! No problem, I thought. Just take LI Bus from E Meadow to Hicksville, LIRR to ENY, "J" to Gates Av and worry about the battery after I get home. Well with no schedule I froze half to death waiting 30 min for the bus. At Hicksville I just assumed that since 99% of LIRR trains stop at Jamaica (exc the P. Wash line of course) I just got on the next train. As soon as the doors closed the announcement was made: This is the Express to NY, Penn Station next stop!!! After walking through 8 cars I found the conductor and asked if she could stop at Jamaica. She said "possibly, but only if we are on a track with a platform and if we're going slow"!! Well, she did the right thing and let me off at Jamaica. Thank you, wherever you are!! Well, finally at Bway Junction I forgot all about skip/stop but luckily got on a "Z" which stopped at Gates!!! On the way home I rode on a dual/mode to Hicksville ( Port Jeff train) which was extremely crowded, almost like the Lex or the "E" Train!! However the bi tri levels are better for crowds than the M1-3's, at least there are things to hold on to!!!
The ERA meeting Friday night was more like a SubTalk gathering. The show was done by Glenn Smith and was an all New York City show. SubTalkers there included: Thurston, Doug aka BMT Man, Bill Newkirk, Stef, David, Thereal Sherman Cheung, Jeff H., Todd Glickman, Heypaul and myself (Sorry if I missed anyone). It was great to meet all of you (And see those I've met in the past) The ERA is a great place to go for a good slide show and I suggest all of you try to attend a meeting.
Yikes! I thought it was Sat. night, I missed it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, Mark, it was great seeing everyone. Sorry I couldn't stay to see the show, but I had to get up at 4:00 a.m. for Transit and Weather Together. This morning I'm standing here in the Weather Center at the STORMFAN WINDOW (sorry, couldn't resist!).
Oh, by the way, I saw another SubTalker yesterday: I rode with Alex L. on his first day running a #2 Redbird. Congratulations, Alex...thanks for the great ride!
STORMFAN WINDOW ???? what is that ?? who is that ??? stormfan-window??? thats a new one on me !!
Dude, relax, not everything is a personal affront.
Todd is a meteorologist. He's got perhaps more interest in storms than in trains. He was just making a joke.
Thanks, Dave. I have equal interest in trains and weather. One is my avocation, the other my vocation. When I can mix the two, it's terrific - such as coming to NYC to work at WCBS and ride the NYC system. (Many years ago when working for a private weather forecasting company, I helped set up a storm warning service for AMTRAK.)
Hey, Todd!
SubTalk had a "mini-convention" last night with enough members showing up to fill up an R-17 with standing room only! (well, maybe the SRO is abit of an exaggeration). There was heypaul, Mark W., Bill Newkirk, Thurston, the real Sherman Cheung, Sid from NJ, Stef, Jeff H. yours truly, and of course Todd. (Whew! I hope I didn't leave somebody out??)
Yeah, it was good running into you again. I'll certainly give you a ring when I get up to Beantown (probably sometime after the big thaw).
It'll give me an excuse to drop in on Samuel Adams Brewery!
Doug aka BMTman
It was great to meet everyone. I hope to see each and every one of you again. Many thanks to heypaul (aka the poor soul) for giving out audio tapes of R9 sounds. It's way too cool.
I'm off to Branford this morning.... See you later, SubTalk Friends!
-Stef
As others here have said it was indeed a fun way to spend a Friday night. I had the pleasure of meeting at least a couple more SubTalkers for the first time. I even saw one of the regular trolley operators from Shoreline @ Branford who I learned resides in Queens. Also of interest to me was seeing Trevor Logan, the BusTalker. Many of you may know that he also runs his own Web Site.
The only bothersome thing to me was all the comments from the peanut gallary (that's audiance for you youngsters). We heard pigeons cooing, R-9 air compressors, Lo-V horns, etc., etc. Maybe this is normal for this group. Our host Glenn Smith didn't seem to mind.
I was also very impressed with the trivia that Glenn kept laying on us, e.g.
- What was the last line to still have light bulbs vs. florescent ?
- Who were the major tennents of the old Penn Station ?
- When was the last train with kerosene lamps run with passengers ?
If you haven't made any of these 3rd Friday meetings, then by all means mark your calendar for February. It will be the last in the 4 part Millennium series and I'm told will be a good one ! The presenter will be Andy Grahl. He and his dad have been life long rail & bus fans.
Mr t__:^)
So what ARE the answers to those trivia questions?
--Mark
You'll have to be at the next meeting. :-)
Mark W. can be a bit of a tease sometimes, I don't mean to be. I was realy testing the waters, i.e. is it just me that don't know most of this stuff ? Since I wasn't taking notes I only remember the exact answer on one, you'll like it.
- Light bulbs ... last ones were on the IND, the G line.
- Kerosene lamps ... was a Rail Fan trip of Lo-V or Hi-Vs I think. The lamps were at headlight height, do that help ID which car ?
- Penn Station ... now don't jump all over me on this one, but I didn't think it looked to great & don't understand what all the fuss is about. Grand Central on the other hand is a real hansom looking building inside.
The point I was trying to make with my three questions was the scope of the trivia that Glenn was relating. My brain was on overload.
One answer I do remember ... how many cars could the little steam engine haul & how many were in a car set when electricfied ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston:
Sometimes? Try all the time. :-)
I recall incandescent on the IND COncourse as late as 1979. Some mezzanines on Queens Blvd Line still are all incandescent.
NYCT is busy installing modern lighting in mezzaniens and sooner or later all incandescent will disappear.
I think Grand Ave is one of them.
You won the prize ( my thanks). There is also Elmhurst, continental, and Most of the local stops!
I remember those incandescent platform lights on the Concourse line during that time as well. The mezzanine at Fordham Rd. was still dark and forbidding the last time I went up there in 1998. Of course, if they don't speed up those D trains somehow, sometime, someday, it may be a while before I go up there again.
A question about the upcoming G.O. affecting the C and E trains. The NYCT Web site as well as posters tell all about the diversion plans, except where the southern terminal of the E will be during midnight hours. The Web site notice implies that it will be Canal Street:
E runs normal between Jamaica Center and Canal St and then replaces the C between Chambers St and Euclid Av except during late night hours.
Can one of our NYCT friends verify this from the supplement schedule?
From what I know, E will probably turn at Chambers St A platform during midnight hours using the long tail track between the Canal and Chambers St. Stations.
On Weekends a special S train will run from 21 street/Queensbridge and Broadway/Lafayette since the B will be running to 168.( The Q will run to Queensbridge as normal when the Q is running)
Now opinion: This shuttle will probably be signed as B (orange in color) and run as 6av local.
I am on vacation this week so I dont have the official bulletin inm front of me. When I return to work on 1/31/2000 I'll check the bulletin for official info.
Subway-Buff --
I don't think the shuttle will be signed as a B train. If it was, it might be confused with the B which is running from 168 to Coney Island via 6 Ave. express on weekends. I'd guess it will either be signed as an S (more likely) or as a Q.
Chuck
Why not sign it up as a "V"? This way there's no confusion as to what it is. And it's the right color too.
Wayne
01/23/2000
I don't think so, The (V) designation might be reserved for a future route when the 63rd St connector opens. (S) Shuttle says it all.
Bill Newkirk
The E will turn at Chambers Street (A plat) during the midnight hours--not Canal.
I realize for the most part, "E" service will be made up of Pitkin and Jamaica R32's, but I can't help wondering if R38's will once again be seen on Queens Blvd., where they haven't been since the '70's. Also, could we see an occaisional R46 on the "A"?
In any case, get your cameras ready for a historic event.
does anyone know the URL for the official NYCT statemwnt re: the WTC switcher repair? if so pls. post, thx.
it is a long one:
mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm
then scroll down or click the line of your choice
I saw the supplement schedule for the weekends. The daily hasn't come out yet. I wait for it holding my breath! For my personal selfish interest, I hope I don't have to do any more than 2 round trips to Euclid! I'm sure some R38's will turn up on the E and I look forward to operating them. They were long gone from the Queens IND when I started with the TA 20 years ago. It will be nice to see R46's going toward Euclid, but I also hope we don't get stuck with any R44's! Keep 'em on the A where they belong! During midnite hours Sat & Sun (and it is usually the same for the most part on the daily schedule) the schedule calls for the E trains to terminate at Chambers St. It didn't specify which track. So, the E trains will have to run thru track 5 between Canal & Chambers either entering or leaving and will arrive and leave either at the uptown or downtown A platform. The crews will be dropping back to the next train at Chambers St.(for good reason) all nite so as not to interfere with the A service. The trains will go in and out almost immediately. But adhering to the schedule is another matter. You see, the E trains will have (get this) a 3 1/2 minute layover time! With all the track gangs all over the line overnite, there is no way to arrive on time, and of course, the train will be late going back to Jamaica Center. It looks good on paper, but.....
Thanks for the update on the weekend-midnite G.O. E service, Bill. I frequently get on at WTC and catch the 5:06 a.m., which I did this morning. It was an R-46! There is an uptown A which passes through Chambers at 5:02 a.m. just before the E gets the gong to proceed north from the WTC terminal.
We have a battle of the Titans between R-62 and R-142. We have two new great cars running but it will be great to have a couple redbirds still running, so that they last 50 years and then I would like to see the R-62 and R-142 last 50 years which I think is never going to happen. I say that the R-62 and R-142 will last 20-35 years and that is it. I have noticed that the subway cars were made in the 50's have long life spans and take anything. The cars made in the 80's and 90's I have a feeling will never last long. So go redbirds and let see them make 50. The R-33 will have to last to 2012-13 to be 50 years old. The R-36 will have to make it to 2013-14 to make it to 50. The R-26 will have to last until 2009-10 to be 50. The R-28 will have to live until 2010-11. The R-29 will have to make it to 2012-13 to be 50. LET'S GO REDBIRDS!
I love Redbrids & i enjoy it riding. I would love to see those cars last for 20 more years.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
R62's v. R142's
I Vote R62's.
i vote the R 62 S for maybe 20 years but NOT 40 LIKE THE REDBIRDS !!!
What? I can't believe a subway car would only last 20 years... 30 at the least. In Chicago, the oldest cars, the 2200s are now over 30 years old and still going strong... but the CTA wants to retire them within the next few years. Why? I don't know, but I'd guess that it's because they can't accept wheelchairs, because of their "blinker" doors. But they're always paired with wheelchair accessible cars anyway, so what's the problem? The 2200s are the most reliable cars in the CTA system.
Ignore Mr Willie. He's got a problem with anything new, and he's an obsessive peeping tom.
-Hank
peeping tom ?? MAN !!! I AM NOT THAT WAY AT ALL !!! speak for yourself mr. hank!!!!
i do not have problems with "" new things"".......... quality things !!!!
NEW DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN QUALITY !!!
And it also doesn't always mean crap, which you seem to suggest.
The R-62 is the best car in the subway, they do their work as much as those rustbirds do.
RUST BIRDS !!! well ! again if they do last 30 years the redbirds did last 40 !! BEAT THAT R 142 !!1
Almost every car did beat that 40 year mark. The exception are the Redbirds contemporaries on the B division (R-27/30), and those cars immediate predecessors (R-16, 17, 21/22).
So you see, cars from that era ARE worse. This is PRE-R-36!
wait and see if the R-60 and higher types can do this also !!
The R-44 is already 30 (actually 29), it is in no danger of failing anytime soon. It's already outlived many R-21/22s.
Let's see. Redbirds:carbon steel body. R62 and R142: stainless steel= no corrosion. They both have the same truck configuration except for the 142.the R62 and R142 have way more modern mechanism under and inside the cars. from my observasion and riding both models everyday on the subway, the R62 would last another 10 years more than the Redbirds. with the 142's another 20.
If you're saying that their age at death then you're right for the R-62, but for the R-142, I think that 65 years is excessive. If you're talking about the time of death, then you're wrong as this would kill the R-62 early, and the R-142 earlier.
Now the R-62 isn't a high tech car, in fact, it was a reversal of technological advances in the R-44/46 classes because of problems with poor implementation. At the time, MDBF was low and they couldn't risk problems with another fleets tech problems. They needed something tried and true that wouldn't have as many bugs to work out and would therefore get to work fast.
Which is why all those cars were bought as singles.
-Hank
UPDATE! The R-62 has already been around for almost 20 years and is the most reliable car in the fleet.
I think that we SubTalkers should all pitch in and buy Mr. Willie a brain.
you mean the redbirds let them rest and your r 62s didnt pull thier load by themselves !! how about that
no brain post a note ??? the redbirds did all he work !!!
How can you immediately vote against the R-142s? YOU'VE NEVER RIDDEN ONE! It's never been in service, nobody knows how well it will work.
but hey no brain !!! what facts you have how long they will last ??? are you a design enginer no brain?
Actually, the IRT equipment made in the early 1950s (R-15, R-17, R-21, and R-22, and the BMT-IND equipment made in the mid-1950s (R-16) didn't last very long -- none made it to 35 years, and some didn't make it to 30. Yes, they probably would have lasted longer if they had been overhauled like the Redbirds were, but with all the abuse the carbodies took (acid washes) it's a wonder they lasted as long as they did, and that the Redbirds have lasted as long as they have.
By the way, in November 1999, the R-62 fleet had ONE breakdown in almost 1.8 million miles of service.
David
Sorry, it's not happening. The Redbirds are severely rusted and can't survive that long. The R-142s will replace most of them,the next order, proposed by 2004, will replace them all. No Redbird will even reach the age of 45.
01/23/2000
You know speaking of rust, I was riding the #2 on Friday night and a train of low #9000 series cars came into the station. I noticed that not one car had a rust problem underneath the window sashes. I believe the R-26 and 28's are the ones with the rust problem. They're only a few years apart in age, why the problem?
Bill Newkirk
I think the R-33s on the 2 are receiving TLC from the Bondo Squad. Most of the ones I saw last fall looked pretty good.
BUT YOUR R 62s AND YOUR R 142s WILL NOT LAST THE 40 YEARS THAT THE REDBIRDS DID !!
how about that insane in the brain post it a note ??
Princeton Shuttle down due to wire problems. SHuttle bus is running
NE Corridor trains running with delays up to 1 hour.
can we say LIRR West of Hudson?(or are we sure LIRR does not run NJT)
i think there was a signal problems in the edsion nj area
Does anybody know exactly when the R 142's will run tests in revenue service. From what I've heard, they did well on the test. Just wondering.
Clark
After SIX (6) months of tests.
Aren't they going to test them in revenue service too. That's the real test. Stand Clear of the closing doors...MOVE!!!... Aw man the door's stuck!
I thought I read they would be tested in revenue service in May. That would make it four months of non-revenue testing.
i recieved a REQUEST for a subway rail fan vidieo from a YOUNG MAN AGE 15 i told him to get permission from
HIS PARENTS FIRST !!! I think I did the RIGHT THING .... what do you think subtalkers ??
remember this young man is 15 years old !!! ???? what would you do ?
Well, since you asked ...
I'm assuming that there is no age-inappropriate content in your video, so I wouldn't think that a parent could possibly have an objection to it. I'd just send it. OTOH, if there was age-inappropriate content, I wouldn't send it, parental permission or not, especially since it's hard to prove parental permission has really been granted when you're dealing with the internet.
My fourteen-year-old son follows this board from time to time and if he were to ask for it I certainly would have no objection.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i think you did the right thing. i would have no problem with him getting. it just a courtesy to the parnets.
Agreed with all the above, but I am 3 1/2 older then 15 and I got my wifes permission and would like one too. Boy from Moms permission to wifes. Does it ever end?
THANKS SUB TALK FOLKS !!!! SORRY FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS i got a answer from
this 15 year olds FATHER and thier E mail address !! THEY SAID SEND IT TO HIM !!!!
and i responded back and i thanked the whole family !! HOPE THE BECK FAMILY ENJOYS
THE # 7 - 2 -5- and the A train all he way to far rockway !!!! ONCE AGAIN THANK YOU SUBTALKERS !!!
( see THE RAILFAN-WINDOW isnt so bad after all ) ............ good endings thank you !!! salmallah@yahoo.com VIDIEOS ...
THANKS SUB TALK FOLKS !!!! SORRY FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS i got a answer from
this 15 year olds FATHER and thier E mail address !! THEY SAID SEND IT TO HIM !!!!
and i responded back and i thanked the whole family !! HOPE THE BECK FAMILY ENJOYS
THE # 7 - 2 -5- and the A train all he way to far rockway !!!! ONCE AGAIN THANK YOU SUBTALKERS !!!
( see THE RAILFAN-WINDOW isnt so bad after all ) ............ good endings thank you !!! salmallah@yahoo.com VIDIEOS ...
"Agreed with all the above, but I am 3 1/2 older then 15 and I got my wifes permission and would like one too. Boy from Moms permission to wifes. Does it ever end?"
Yes, it ends with needing your kid's permission.
Alan (Brighton Al) Glick
You re right, My 92 Year old mother came home from the hospital and asked me permission if it is ok to eat dinner in her chair
Why does it matter to the parents? It's not like the video is rated R, is it? I agree with Anon_e_mouse.
01/23/2000
That's right. There is no sex and violence in it. Just good clean fun. So it's rated (G), or (A) or (C) or (Q) depending which railfan window it was videoed from.
Bill Newkirk
The G has railfan windows?
I think you made the right suggestion about him asking his parents first.
Why is that? Afraid that there's some R-rated stuff off the front of the train?
You probably made the correct decision. Its not like there would be illegal content in the videos, but chances are that when the video came through the mail, it would be between Monday and Friday, when you are in school. And if any number of your parents either beat you home, or do not leave the house at all, then your parents will find it, and think you are crazy.
thank you i agree the parents e mailed me with thier official permission now i am in the clear !
you have to do the right thing ( protect yourself ) yourself these days !!!!
now that i have thier permission the tape is on the way !!! THANK YOU SUBTALKERS !!!
salamallah@yahoo.com ..... !!!
And they wouldn't think you are crazy if you asked them.
I've made it perfectly clear that my parents can't open any letters in my name, I've already received three parcels from heypaul.
Does one have to be eighteen to get a PO Box? A private PO Box?
how old are you young man ???
Seventeen.
Do I qualify for your video?
you are seventeen ?? ok get your parents to e mail me and you can have them !!!
How would you know that it's my parents and not me masquerading in their stead?
The #7 was not running between Grand Central and Times Square.
I noticed at the Times Square complex that tere were signs saying that because of the cold weather the #7 was not running to Times Square.
Anyone know why? Since when did cold weather KO trains underground?
Because of the cold weather, trains are laid up underground. On the 7 line, the only place to do that is between GC and TSQ. Had you explored further, you would probably have found the shuttle running on the midnights in place of 7 service.
The shuttle running all night I already new about.
Downtown local C service was also KO'd because of 'cold weather'.
IN ATLANTA THE MARTA TRAIN IS KOed EVERY TIME IT GETS COLD ( doors frozen shut )
i lived in detroit back in the 1980s- early 1990s SO I KNOW !!!
Kevin, it had to be smething else that did in Local service. When the trains get stored underground, they get put on the express track, thereby forcing expresses to run local and maintaining service at all stations
No express tracks on the 7 once you go west past 33/Rawson.
-Hank
And that's why they lay them up between TSQ and Grand Central. Now the circle is complete.
Prior to the air-conditioning retrofit the heaters worked quite well on the R33s/R36's. They ran the heaters and were able to keep the trains in the yard.
I've heard that it is too cold to store trains above ground in the Corona Yard so they store them west of GC
They stored the 7 trains between GCT and TS b/c it's the only place they could have without disrupting service. Passengers can take the S from GCT to TS or vice versa from the 7.
Or if they are coming from E/O Queensborough Plaza the could change there for the BMT to Times Sq.
What about the transfer to the IND at Fifth Avenue?
Did they use the Brooklyn-bound track on the L between 8th Ave. and 3rd Ave. for train storage the way they used to? I remember that very well.
I cannot quite figure out how they can get all those trains out of there in time for rush hour, so that the express tracks can open up. If they take them out one at a time, they won't all be out by the time rush hour is jumping. But there is no where to put them. It seems like they would have to a) effectively start rush hour service earlier, to get all the trains out, or b) cancel some express service, which is essentially impossible on some lines due to tight capacity. ???
By the way... is it possible to string together, say, 30 cars and operate them from point A to point Z as a train? (no passengers, just to move the train.) What would prevent this - what is the longest train you could run in the subway system?
If the top brass at MTA is really willing to have smorgasbord trains, then let it be!
Here are a few scenarios:
#1) If the redbirds are staying on the #7, then there are two ways to keep 11 car trains without the pesky R33S:
A) Pelham (R62A) cars MU'ing with 3 pairs of Redbirds (one five car set + three pairs of red birds = 11 cars)
B) Five Pairs of Redbirds + Livonia R62A single
#2) No redbirds on the #7, then...
A) Livonia R62A single + 2 five car R62A sets from either Pelham or 240th (very unlikely), with its corresponding redbirds to either of the lines. It is higly likely that Livonia will get some five-sets from Pelham or 240th to cover its R62As lost...(notice that 1886 to 90 and 1896 to 1900 have been seen on #3 lately....)
B) If Jerome is willing to trade its R62 cars with Redbirds (they already have 80 of them), then 2 sets of Jeromes with one single Livonia.
Note to #2: a Livonia single is required if the R62/R62As come to Corona.
Or perhaps.....
The creation of 6 car R-62 sets as the R-142 is supposed to be compatible with.
The R62 is NOT compatible with the R142. For starters, they've got different couplers. Ac and DC traction motors don't work well together. And with all the electronics on the 142s...
-Hank
If it gets coupled together, it'll blow up?
No, but since the couplers are incompatible, it's not an issue. And presumably, they could not couple electrically. You'd be running the risk of blowing all the circuits.
-Hank
Kind of like what would happen if you tried to couple R-44s and R-46s together, eh?
No, that's not what I said. I said that the R-142 is compatible with 6 car sets which is something that the R-62 can be configured into.
So you mean CONFIGURABLE. According to the Bombardier eb page, there will be 6, 9 and 11 car trains made up.
-Hank
Which means 4, 5 and 6 car sets
ABB'A
ABBB'A
ABBBB'A
A = A car
B = B car
B' = something similar to a B car
Today i just added 61 images on NYCTransiTrans Gallery Bus & Subway's page & enjoy my site.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I like the pics of the R-142's. I'll be curious to see what the R-143's look like, as I've always had a preference to the aesthetic appearance of the BMT/IND trains as opposed to the IRT.
This question has probably already been answered here before, but what's the timeline for delivery of the first batch of R-143's?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
David,
Those are some cool shots of the R142 on your webpage! I especially like the shot of R142s heading down track 8 to the bumper! Very artistic!
Very cool!
Thanks for the great webpage.
Brandon Bostian
is it bombardier or Kawasaki? i can't tell by the front color
Thank You Brandon Bostian & it a great picture i ever shot. I will have more R142 pictures soon when they are testing on Dyre Ave line.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, the IND has been majorly dissed this month.
I met somebody in Williamsburg today so I took the L, which I ride abt 5 times a year.
To my surprise the 8th Avenue station has been renovated, losing its blue IND-style tiling in favor of a BMT/IRT type mosaic, with a numeral 8 and mosaic in multicolored pieces.
I believe the only 'fake' IND tiling now, ie. IND tiling in a non-IND station, is at Broad Street (M/J).
www.forgotten-ny.com
Broad Street is not wearing IND tile-- it too has been renovated.
I'm in the minority here but I LIKE the original IND tiling scheme. Large bold lettering, primary colors, a finish that makes it shine, and a color coding system (that few know about these days: but express stations introduce a new color that is featured in all local stations till the next express station). Sorry to see it go on those IND stations and their imitators.
The new tile in 8th Avenue station is a very close reproduction of the same Vickers design found in all of the other Canarsie Line stations - a motif found only on that line, with vertically-positioned hexagon icons, diamonds, triangles, contrasting borders and a "crazy-quilt" pattern in the center of the band. The colors at 8th Avenue are not that attractive but at least it now matches the rest of the stations on the line. I personally think they did a nice job of it.
Broad Street (Yellow Ochre/Saddle Brown) and Fulton Street (Maroon/Black) have had the IND tile replaced with the traditional Nassau Street Grecian Key frieze, like those found at Canal Street and Bowery. Chambers Street, while similar, lacks the Grecian design.
Wayne
The Nassau St. line now sports 2 of the worst looking stations in the entire system (Chambers St and The Bowery). No 2 stations in Manhattan need a rehabilitaton more than they do. It's about time the Chamber's St station was returned to it's former glory, at least asthetically, even if it isn't the popular destination for Brooklynites it was earlier this century.
I totally agree with you, Chris. In fact I have a laundry-list of things that need to be done there, starting with the complete replacement of the ceiling and roof over the station proper AND the sealing and elimination of all sources of water seepage, which is slowly turning that station into a ruin. The columns are sprung in various places on the northbound platform - this is a structural problem that needs to be addressed soon. There are also fissures opening up in the ceiling around one of the stairways near the north end. This is dangerous. And that gigantic leak in the middle of the station proper...
Short version of list:
1) repair and remedy all structural deficiencies
2) remove sources of water and seal with waterproof compound
3) replace platform surfaces and retile columns
4) remove 1962 wall and restore original tilework/marblework
including that on the closed platform.
5) restore all original lighting fixtures including those on columns
Bowery southbound is in better shape than is Bowery northbound, although neither will win a beauty prize. There is a major tilefall on the northbound side curtain wall and a leak worthy of Chambers Street is there too.
Wayne
I think the city is planning to reduce the entire Nassau St. line to 2 tracks, given that the Canal St. downtown platform is completely renovated, but the northbound one isn't. There really isn't the need for the complex track arrangements these days, and rehabbibg only one half of both the Bowery and Chambers St. would save money. But something needs to be done at Chambers. Something, or someone, is rotting away, and that station has one nasty funk as well as looking awful.
Half a rehab at Chambers wouldn't solve all the problems, though it would be nice to get rid of that west wall. Hopefully, the MTA won't decide to put up a middle barrier wall in the station, similar to what's at Canal Street right now.
I think the TA will install walls on either side of the southbound platform. The rest of the structure will merely be repaired to prevent collapse.
That would be my bet as well. However, this can't be done until the southbound layup track is attached to the track coming in from Fulton St, and the stub track on the Manhattan bound platform at Canal is connected to the incoming track from Chambers. This is serious structural work, but it would remove 2 killer curves that Queens-bound trains must traverse. The Nassau St. line is quite low on the totem pole as far as improvements go, so it will probably be a while. And Chambers. St. will continue to decay ...
The removal of the layup track is advantageous. M trains would have to go to Southern Brooklyn again middays.
Don't bet on it. They'd likely terminate the M at Broad St. during those hours.
8th Ave on the L was a BMT Station and still should be a BMT Station
8th on the L in an IND station on a BMT line. THe BMT never finished it, the IND did. Prior to that, the 14st line terminated at 6th Ave.
-Hank
Being that 8th Av is a terminal stop there is usually 2 trains there on both sides of the island platform so it doesn't really matter what style the tiles are, its very rare that you see it!!!
All the more reason to ride the L from end to end the next time I'm in the city. I haven't set foot in the 8th Ave. station since 1970!
Oh and Wayne, I FINALLY got my photos back from the first roll I shot during our expedition last October. The Wilson Ave. mosaic pic turned out real nice, as did the one at Fulton St.
ALL my pictures from 27 October came out well, especially that amazing set from the front of #4402 as we rounded the "S" curve north of Sutter on the "L".
Simon Billis is next up for a day-trip (March 13, 2000).
Just tell me when you're coming, and I'll join you for an end-to-end on the "L", including few stops along the way (i.e. Morgan, Montrose, etc.) Perhaps subway-buff will come along for the ride as well.
Wayne
Mine came out OK, although one was a bit shaky. It's the one I took just as we passed the old cutoff to Pitkin Ave. Even my mother was impressed with the Franklin Ave. shuttle photos.:)
I probably won't be back again until next fall, but will keep you posted.
What I liked (and still like) about IND tiling styles has to do not only with what you described, but also the pre-lettered and -numbered tiles in which the letters and numbers are printed (or indented, or whatever) onto the tiles themselves. I counted the following typeface variations (mind you, these are as originally constituted):
Variation I: Chambers Street-Hudson Terminal (before retiling), Canal Street-Holland Tunnel (before retiling), Spring Street, West 4th Street (both levels), portions of 14th Street-8th Avenue (before retiling), portion of 34th Street-Penn Station (northernmost express platform wall before being sealed off), portions of 42nd Street-8th Avenue, portions of 59th Street-Columbus Circle, 116th Street, 125th Street, 135th Street, 145th Street (both levels), 155th Street, 163rd Street, 168th Street, 175th Street, 181st Street, 190th Street-Overlook Terrace, Dyckman-200th Street, 207th Street; 174th-175th Street, Tremont Avenue, 182nd-183rd Street, Fordham Road, Kingsbridge Road, Bedford Park Boulevard, 205th Street; Seventh Avenue-53rd Street (before retiling); Broadway-Lafayette Street (before retiling), Second Avenue, Delancey Street, East Broadway, York Street, Jay Street-Borough Hall, Bergen Street (before retiling), Carroll Street, Seventh Avenue (Brooklyn), 15th Street-Prospect Park, Fort Hamilton Parkway, Church Avenue; Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street, Lafayette Avenue, Clinton-Washington Avenue (both Fulton Street and Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown lines), Franklin Avenue, Nostrand Avenue, Kingston-Throop Avenue; Fulton Street (portions of Nassau Street line before retiling; and all of Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line), Classon Avenue, Bedford-Nostrand Avenue, Myrtle-Willoughby Avenue, Flushing Avenue, most of Nassau Avenue, Greenpoint Avenue, Van Alst-21st Street, Court Square; portions of Fifth Avenue-53rd Street (before retiling); 23rd Street-Ely Avenue, Queens Plaza, 36th Street (Queens), Steinway Street, 48th Street, Elmhurst Avenue, Grand Avenue-Newtown, 75th Avenue, Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens, Van Wyck Boulevard; 8th Avenue-14th Street (before the retiling described); portions of Broad Street (before retiling).
Variation II: 14th Street-8th Avenue, 23rd Street-8th Avenue, 34th Street-Penn Station, 42nd Street-8th Avenue, 50th Street-8th Avenue (both levels), 59th Street-Columbus Circle (plus part of southbound IRT station which pointed to 58th and 60th Street exits), 72nd Street, 81st Street-Museum of Natural History, 86th Street, 96th Street, 103rd Street, 110th Street-Cathedral Parkway; portions of 205th Street; portions of Queens Plaza.
Variation III: much of 5th Avenue; part of Nassau Avenue.
Variation IV: 155th Street-8th Avenue; 161st Street-River Avenue, 167th Street, 170th Street.
Variation V: Broadway-Nassau Street, High Street-Brooklyn Bridge; Northern Boulevard, 65th Street, Roosevelt Avenue.
Variation VI: Utica Avenue, Ralph Avenue, Rockaway Avenue; Woodhaven Boulevard-Slattery Plaza (before retiling), 63rd Drive, 67th Avenue, 71st-Continental Avenues.
Variation VII: Sutphin Boulevard, Parsons Boulevard, 169th Street; 14th Street-6th Avenue, 23rd Street-6th Avenue, 34th Street-Herald Square, 42nd Street-6th Avenue, 47th-50th Street - Rockefeller Center [also used on the following IRT stations: Hoyt-Bridge Streets, southbound Canal Street (before retiling), southbound Spring Street, southbound Bleecker Street, southbound Astor Place (before retiling), all of: 23rd Street, 28th Street, 33rd Street (before retiling), 103rd Street, 110th Street-Cathedral Parkway, 116th Street, 137th Street-City College (before retiling), 145th Street, 157th Street, 168th Street, 181st Street].
Variation VIII: Broadway-East New York (also used in portions of 7th Avenue stations, Elmhurst Avenue, 182nd-183rd Street, 205th Street)
And there's variation IX, X, XI and XII if you care to count 'em:
IX: Liberty, Van Siclen, Shepherd (blue tile, white letters)
X: Euclid Avenue (purple on ecru)
XI: Grant Avenue (bottle green on ice green)
XII: 179th Street (black on ecru)
The above stations are really different than the original IND style tile (except IX, which is the most similar).
Wayne
Wow, thats dedication...
No, Broad St has been fully renovated with the new brown and green Grecian tile design now standard on the Nassau St. line. So has Fulton St. and Canal St. (Manhattan-bound platform only).
I think the 8th Ave. terminal should have kept it's IND identity. It's sole purpose was to act as a transfer between the 14th St. and 8th Ave. lines.
Speaking of tiles, new tiles have been put up at the Whitehall St exit of the Whitehall St station indicating the direction of the Ferry and Water St.
-Hank
Yes I have seen them, but they are not finished yet - they are up but are not grouted yet. They are exactly like those in the mezzanines at Court and Lawrence Streets. Speaking of Lawrence Street - don't you think they can hang some panel tile up there? Never have I seen such a depressing sight. The mezzanine is nicely decorated, with a neat frieze in shades of aqua, orange, yellow, brown and dark violet. Ditto for 86th Street and 4th Avenue. The mezzanine has the Vickers Globe design, like other stations on the line (95th Street and the express stops). All they have to do is put up studs and laths and hang the panel tile like they did at 207th Street or B'way Lafayette or Chambers-H&M. Yes, they CAN close one track at night to do this.
Wilson Avenue on the "L" needs it too. So does Atlantic on the "D"/"Q".
I have detailed photos/sketches of all of the above designs, including the proper color keys.
wayne
>>>Vickers Globe design<<<
Qu'est que c'est "Vickers Globe Design?" Gracias.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Please stand by!! a forthcoming page from our Tilemaster will answer your questions!!!
Vickers Globe Design
It is the design found at 95th Street, 86th (mezzanine), 59th, 36th, Pacific, De Kalb, 9th Avenue (lower level and stationhouse) and at the closed Myrtle Avenue station, all on the BMT.
The round circular center of the main part of the design is what gives it the "globe". They also have "X"s and big tablets in the design, except at 86th Street, where it occurs only in the mezzanine and (recently installed) on a staircase wall. It is a sort of a progression from the Grecian Key designs found on the Nassau Street line.
Wayne
Fourth Ave. and 86th St. on the R has had the barren wall design now for -- what -- 30 years? And 53rd and Lex has been bare for just about as long. Sometimes, I think 86th Street's tiles were taken down about the same time they put in all those ugly blue-and-white MTA cinder block tiles on Fourth Ave. and Broadway in Manhattan. Then they probably found out the cinder blocks were too wide to fit on the outer wall of the island platform set-up and just abandoned the whole thing.
53rd and Lexington has NEVER had tile.
At 86th/4th Ave BMT, there are remnants near the north end - plain white panels between the studs. This is what it must have been at one time. It is crying out for panel tile matching that in the mezzanine (and similar in design to 95th Street) to be installed.
Wayne
Speaking of Whitehall St., why has the new platform lights been turned off and the old ones restored? I knew from the minute I saw them that they'd be inadequate illumination. You'd think they TA would learn from it's mistakes (B'way Lafayette) and not be so cheap with new lights.
THE CLIFTONS CAFETERIA DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES IS STILL IN OPERATION !!
I DONT KNOW IF THE FOOD IS STILL LIKE IT ONCE WAS !!!
HOWEVER IT IS A L O N G WALK TO THE RED LINE SUBWAY - BLUE LINE LIGHT RAIL !!!
Is that the place that had a ceiling with tiled arches (somewhat like the Oyster Bar at Grand Central in New York)?
doug bmt lines asked that question i
wanted him to know clifton still is in operation a long walk from the red line subway !!!
If I remember it is on Broadway betwen 6 and 7 or 7 and 8. The Red Line is 1 -4 blocks(short) away depending where Cliftons is.
It's at the northeast corner of Broadway and 7th Street (more on Broadway,though).
They did have a "branch" on 7th Street west of Hill, but I don't know if that one is in operation.
They also had one in Laguna Hills, on Paseo de Valencia at El Toro Road, but that one closed due to lack of business!! Of course, at that location their prices were almost double what the downtown Los Angeles location was charging; I guess they figured we're all filthy rich down here in Orange County!
And another one that clsoed was in Century City. It was on the west side of the complex, a half block south of "Little" Santa Monica Blvd. I used to bring tour bus groups there all the time when I was doing tour/charter driving for a living ten years ago.
I'll have to dig out my 1987 Red/Yellow lines calendar. The March photo dates from 1955 and was taken at that very intersection. It shows P-3 all-electric streetcar #3133 on the P line dropping off passengers at the safety island.
I don't have too much time, nor have I been able to read the messages to see if this has already been mentioned, but it seems as if EVERY slant 40 the TA has is currently parked on the downtown B'way Express. There's even trains at the platforms at 14st and 34st. I suppose this is to keep the trainss from getting 'cold'. Wouldn't work at Whitehall. At the Stone St end of the platform, there are actually icicle COLUMNS from the new fire standpipe to the platforms, and several large chunks of ice on the trackbed, along with ice on the rails.
-Hank
Same story on the 1/9 early this morning, The TA has #2 train redbirds parked all the way along the express tracks from 59th Street until past 96th street, including stations.
DONT GO TO ATLANTA !! the doors are always freezing shut there in cool weather !!
( I have a feeling that I am slipping back.)
Mr. Willie--- I am surprised that the good folks in
Atlanta, never considered the following cure for
the freezing doors on the subway cars. It is
similar to what they do to protect the peach crop
from a freeze. I would have thought that they would
have put a smudge pot around each door in a subway
car to keep the temperatures from dropping too low.
I know it would be hard on people who have asthma,
but perhaps they could ride in a separate car in the
middle of the train, and exit and enter through one
of the smudge pot protected cars. I think it is an
idea worthy of a $1,000,000 feasibility study.
Which reminds me of a Steven Wright joke. He
claimed to have a friend who worked for over 20
years on a top secret Federal Government project
designed to discover who actually built the Pyramids in Egypt. After 20 years of study and over
$480,000,000 in expenses, his friend released a
report saying that the Pyramids were built by a guy named Vinny.
RIGHT ON HEY-PAUL !!! and thank you for telling the folks on sub talk about the railfan-window
vidieos etc !!! THATS WHY I AM SO HARD ON THE NEW 142s AND R 62s ETC,,,,
NOW MAYBE IN NEW YORK THE SUBWAY DOORS DONT FREEZE SHUT LIKE THEY DO
IN ATLANTA..... but atlanta boasted louder than anyone that thier subway cars were NUMBER @#1 ONE ????
having to store your trains under the tunnels to keep the doors operational sounds like
NUMBER # O ZERO TO ME !!! didnt happen to the redbirds and the r1-9s right subtalkers ???
The redbirds are in the tunnels for the same reason. The weather doesn't discriminate between car types.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
YEA BUT YOU ARE HAVING A REAL WINTER THERE !! last time i heard 20 degree weather !!
the atlanta doors freeze shut in above frezing weather !! 1983 - 1987 last time i was there !!!!
Also on the Lexington Line, On the Uptown Epxpress side, there are #5 Redbirds parked from about 66th to 125th, and on the Pelham Line throught the whole underground section there are R62s and Pelham Redbirds parked there too. I believe its to keep the trains from freezing!
Trevor Logan
aka MTA Hybrid Man
I have also heard there are J trains laid up along the unused tracks along Centre St. Are these cars so vulnerabe to cold that this radical re-alignment is needed?
This practice doesn't seem to bright to me. What happens if a train
stalls out on the local tracks. I guess the riders are out of luck.
Typical thinking by TA management.
That's quite true. It does take away flexibility.
Better to risk a disruption in service than to have half of the fleet freeze overnight, putting them out of service for this morning's rush.
What could be worse is a disabled train plugging up a track holding a bunch of trains needed for service. Could make a mess.
All the deadheading, and moving operators to the trains stored in the tunnels, must get awfully expensive! I'm not saying its not worthwhile...
The risk of frozen trains/switches is too great to not implement an underground layup plan. Imagine the chaos in Queens if all those cars in the Jamaica yard were held captive there by frozen switches.
When will the new tunnel open? when will the new train start operating?
When will the new tunnel open? when will the new train start operating?
Probably Early 2001, I hear that they are almost done, and you can bring trains in there.
There is still no 3rd-rails installed, nor do I see any attempt at installing the signals, at least as far as the portion that can be seen by passing EFGR trains.
Actually, it isn't when the construction is complete that will determine when the connections opens for passanger service. Without a large number of new cars they cannot expand service beyond what's running today. So this connection might not be used until all the R143 cars are online, even if construction is completed well before then.
where can u see the tunnel connecting to q-blvd line and where does it start?
You can see the connector between 36 street and Queens Plaza station. The southbound local track already uses the new bypass tracks and Jamaica bound express tracks are using the former layup tracks.
can u see this from the q line terminal at roosevelt?
The Q train terminates at 21st Queenbridge.The tunnel ran to 29 st,where it ended near the Queens blvd line at Northern Blvd. Orignaly there was suppose to be a new Northern Blvd/QP station located here but as the plans for the Queens X-town route became less of a reality, the whole route was scraped. As it stands now, 2 tracks are planned for Queens Blvd, 2 tracks for 2nd Avenue[Manhattan]and 2 tracks for a planned future extention though the Sunnyside Yards to where ever. So there you go.
During extreme cold and/or snowy weather, the TA has various cold weather lay up plans. Plan #1 is essentially regular location of night time layups with electrical components left "cut in". Plans 2,3, and 4 (all essentially the same with a few differences) orders that trains are laid up underground. Trains and switches may freeze up in the yards and our passengers don't want to know about trains unable to leave the yards on a morning with a wind chill factor of -0! Thursday nite into Friday and all weekend, Plan #2 was in effect. Trains laid up underground. As of a few years ago, typical lay up positions: CI "M" layups on the south exp. between Pacific & 36 St.; CI "N" layups on the north express. "B" layups on the north exp. between 59 & 36. Of course, many trains would have to be used during the day Sat/Sun and then replaced at nite. CI "D" layups on the south exp. between 34 & W.4 Concourse "B" & "D" layups on the Concourse exp. "Q" layups on the southbound Broadway express; Astoria "N" layups on the north. J/Z/L/M trains from the Eastern Division on all unused regular service tracks between Essex & Broad including 3 trains on each track on the old Nassau loop lead to the H tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. 2 "L" trains laid up at Myrtle, and 1 on the spur track between 14/8 and 14/6. The list goes on. Those SubTalkers who don't like this wouldn't like trains buried in yards in the event of snow, or frozen brake shoes against the wheels! What about the workers? How can you walk to a train in the yard with buried rails and third rails?
From a Stations viewpoint: the fluorescent lights on underground platforms with vent chambers and open cut/El platforms are very dim. This is due to the diffuser covers having been removed (by transit or vandals) and the resulting loss of heat. Yes- they do use special cold temperature ballasts but even so the temps have been very close to the design temp of the ballast.
I have noticed though that new lighting upgrades on Els has been sodium vapor lights which appear not to dim in cold weather. (Broadway/Myrtle, 2/5 White Plains, J line West of Eastern Parkway)
Thanks for the concise and informed answer!
dave
Build a huge retractable domed yard, with real grass between the tracks, and luxury boxes and ...
The idea of storing trains underground during the winter months is not new. I remember seeing this being done 30 years ago on the Broadway express tracks (and doing a slow burn because N trains had to run local as a consequence), the Brooklyn-bound L track between 8th Ave. and 3rd Ave, and the 6th Ave. express tracks between 34th and W. 4th. I'm sure other express tracks were used as well.
How does the cold affect trains?
Does it solidfy the oil or grease needed to lubicate moving parts?
The rest is electric.
good question !! how does WORLDWIDE COLD WEATHER AFFECT RAIL TRANSIT CARS ???
As I understand, most of the door control systems are hydraulic. probably the hydraulic fluid "gels" up in the cold weather; you wouldn't think so, as the mechanicsms are under the seats (aren't they?)
I know transmission oil will thicken up in cold weather--I used to have a Mazda pickup truck, and moved to Arlington, VA in 1981, and it got so cold that I could shift gears for the first mile or so!! Had to drive in first gear for about a mile to thin out the tranny oil!
All the TA door motors are electric. On older cars, they were pnuematic. I'd assume that would be a problem in cold weather.
-Hank
The original door engines on the R-16s had a tendency to malfunction in cold weather.
Speaking of difficulty in shifting gears when it's cold, I've been using synthetic gear lube in my Jeep's transmission for the past 11 years, and it makes a big difference.
Well, in Chicago we don't really have huge problems with the cold. It
can be below 0, and trains will still be running. The only problems are when it starts to snow; the 2600 series cars have major problems with snow getting into the electrical system and shorting out the motors on the cars. Other cars don't really have this problem. Fortunately the 2600s are currently being rehabbed to fix this problem.
When it gets extremely cold, the condensation in the air brake lines freezes. It can cause the valves to stick open or closed, preventing the release or application of the brakes.
The cold plays havoc with subway trains in several ways.
I guess the most common way is in the air brake system. Although dessicant filters are used to remove moisture, some moisture remains. Despite auto-drains on the compressors, not all condensate is flushed out of the system. Some of it works it way into valves where it freezes, preventing them from performing their assigned function.
The second most common way is in the electrical connections between the cars. The electric coupler (referred to as the "Electric Portion") has dozens of movable & fixed pins. During warm weather, car wash chemicals & water collect there and usually freeze when the weather turns cold. This causes many types of trainline problems.
The 3rd way is frozen switches or ice build-up in & around the rails. Also Ice on the 3rd rail can be a major headache.
The 4th was is with the doors. Ice builds up in the lower door tracks and binds the door guides - causing guardlight failures.
The final major way is the human factor. People are less likely to leave their homes and more likely to call in sick in severely cold weather. This leads to a shortage of crews. It also leads to a shortage of mechanics to address the other problems.
And since a severe cold snap almost always follows a significant snowfall, people are more likely to leave their cars at home and rely on public transportation.
With that many more people using the system, all of the above problems become severely compounded. (Witness the meltdown of the CTA in the week following the Blizzard of '99.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
The problem during the blizzard was not the passenger load directly, it was those dammned 2600 series cars, which make up the most of the CTA's fleet. Probably the stupidest decision the CTA ever made was buying those cars back in the early 80s; I've never seen a series of railcars with as many problems as they have.
There were a number of things that caused the CTA meltdown (most notably the design defects of the 2600's, as you mention), but the greatly-increased volume of passengers compounded a bad situation and made it even worse.
On a related note, don't forget the 2600's annoying tenancy to catch on fire every so often. Seems like about once a year or so there's usually some incident concerning an electrical fire on a Red Line train. IMO, they should be sending the 2600's to the scrap heap and keeping the 2200's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
I noticed that the doors on the 2600s would rattle open and shut the last time I rode on the L in 1996. Not to mention the racket they raised in the subway. Even the 2000s weren't that loud.
Does the cold weather affect the switch groups, or any of the electric gear? I vaugely remember hearing that Metr0-North's ACMUs have trouble in the cold because of something like this, but I'm not sure.
One good thing about our SCM's, they are'nt affected by temperature because of simple, mechanical construction.
The brake systems are another story..
On R-46's, low temps cause the rubber covers on the tread brake units to crack, thereby releasing air to atmosphere
in every car-8 points of leakage.
When trying to charge the brakepipe, there isn't enough volume of air to overcome this condition so you can't fully attain operating pressure.
The cure is simple--pull the BCO's to cut off leakage. Let everythng build up and push them back!
On all classes of cars (except R110's):
Water freezes and plugs the plumbing up. The Emergency Vent Valve has 4 chambers that have to have about equal pressure to let the train stay charged and released.
If one or more chambers have low pressure, this unbalanced condition causes the valve to vent and it tries to keep the train in emergency. This also sends a voltage down the EMV circuit and the train's EMV's also vent to atmosphere.
There is less condensation inthe plumbing today because of better compressors and better automatic draining.
(A good example can be heard on modern locomotives: They have ADV's plumbed in at many locations and that is what causes that "pppsssttt" sound every few seconds.)
Any RR that runs on the surface runs the risk of self-ventillating motors overheating due to blocked air passages. Also, melted snow can get into the armature and cause motor "Flashover", thus disabling that car's propulsion system.All TA equipment has this type of motor.
About 1/2 of MN and LIRR's fleet has forced-air ventillation. These were the cars that still ran IF they didn't dvelope shorts in their mostly electronic controllers.
A little known fact: All R-type equipment (Except 110) has 300V motors wired in permenant series on each truck.
Therefore, if you lose 1 motor (for any reason), that truck goes offline.
This condition usually leads to the line switch opening up on the car due to excessive current loading in the still-alive truck. We then have a "dead motor' condition on this car.
Conversly, we also lose dynamic braking and the car has to use air brakes 100% of the time. (Those squealing brakes on the Redbirds and other older SMEE's is usually an indicaton of a dead motor.
The yellow lights only illuminate with certain faults in the resistors or SCM's,
so many dead motors are running around dead, but without the lamp illuminated. (A vandal could turn off circuit breakers to kill the motor and the lamp would never illuminate.)
FAV makes the motors virtually immune to snow intrusion.
Interesting. But I am a little lost by all the acronyms...
What's an SCM? How about an EMV?
Don't compressors also deliver less air per minute in lower temps? (Actually, if it delivered the same mass of air per minute at 0° and 60°, the pressure would still rise more slowly at 0°, due to the ideal gas law (hah hah, remember your chemistry :)
Also, are you saying that the R - 110s do not have problems with freezing condensation because of the modern compressors and ADVs
SCM (I forget what the acronym is) Is the generic name for the current family of GE Propulsion control units Most NYCT cars (over 4,300) use SCM-1 propulsion packages. LIRR M-1s utilize the SCM-4. All were designed by the same engineer who has worked for GE for well over 60 years.
SCM stands for Static (or Solid-State, if your prefer)
Cam Magnetic
EMV (since someone asked) stands for Emergency Magnet Valve
[On R-46's, low temps cause the rubber covers on the tread brake units to crack, thereby releasing air to atmosphere
in every car-8 points of leakage. ]
Vinny, not quite true. The sealing rings never actually crack. The cold weather causes the rubber sealing rings to get hard. When they do, they do not seal properly against the wall of the tread brake cylinder. When they warm up, they become plyable again and function properly. This explains why BCO'ing a car and charging it helps. Warm air at high pressure, rushing into the TBU cylinder softens them.
The sealing rings never actually crack. The cold weather causes the rubber sealing rings to get hard. When they do, they do not seal properly...
That's how the space shuttle was lost.
Good point - if the o-rings crack, then they won't seal even when warmed up.
It doesn't help that the rings shrink as they get cold.
The yellow traction fault lights only come on when the
reset lockout counter has activated. It means the dead
motor condition can not be reset on that car with the trainline
reset button. In order to clear the fault, you have to reset
the lockout counter under the car.
in re the 4th item- how expensive would it be for lower door track heaters (or is this an unpractical idea)
Actually, I think it's an excellent idea and one I never really considered. I'd have to ponder it a bit but if I were you, I'd put it on an employee suggestion form and get it date-stamped. The idea may sell. If it does, you might get a reward. (then you can buy me lunch).
It's being done on the SIR. They're slowly installing threshold plate heaters, as the snow and ice buildup on the trains, expecially any that run express, sometimes means the doors don't OPEN at the next stop.
-Hank
Can anyone explain the setup of the full length cabs on the Pelham R-62s? They seem to have a crew door but the cab itself has no door.
From what I heard the cab has a folding door and that the crew door can be used to seal off the conductors operating position on the other side.
BTW- Since full length cabs are used on OPTOs, why does the pelham trains need them? I don't recall OPTO on this line.
OPTO was on the shuttle late nights. Now that it runs to BB 24/7, I'm not sure.
Wrong WMATAGMOH: late nights to Brooklyn Bridge are not OPTO & it run 10 cars not 5 cars. If 5 cars run than it will be OPTO to Brooklyn Bridge.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Ten cars at late night? That's excessive and wasteful. Better to run five car OPTO trains twice as often.
It is not excessive & wasteful. You don't get it because late night on #6 get more people getting on the train from BB to PB & i been on #6 late night couple time. Drye Ave #5 late night that because nobody don't get on that train Between 180st to Drye Av.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
So run 5 car OPTO trains every 10 minutes instead of 10-car 2PTO trains every 20 minutes.
WRONG! The No.6 Line never had OPTO Midnights. The Shuttle from 125 to Pelham had a Conductor. Also with the No.6 going to Brooklyn Bridge it has a Conductor. It was talked about but never happened to my knowledge. The only IRT OPTO lines are the Grand Central Shuttle and the Dyre Ave Shuttle,
This is correct!!!!!
Trevor
Pelham Bay #6 never had opto even when it shuttled from 125 to Pelham Bay.
A 1939 BMT World's Fair Map just sold on eBay for over $37. Is this a reasonable price? I had bid $12 and was considereing going up to $16 or so when the bidding started to escalate. Here's part of the description,
"A nice old map showing the railway system for Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn. Has photos of points of interest printed around the border. Details concerning the individual lines are printed on the back of the map. Measures 4 1/16" X 10" folded and 16 1/4" X 20" unfolded..."
Pictures and more info can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=236892151
Alan Glick
Or, if you didn't feel like spending the money, we have a scan of that very same map on the site.
Historical Maps.
-dave
Unless I'm mistaken, the ERA is selling this map as a reprint at a very reasonable price. You have to be careful that the map you are getting is an original and not the ERA's reprint.
I don't know what the differences are, since I don't have a copy of the ERA versin.
I sold a copy of my 1966 reprint of the 1936 PCC brochure on eBay some time ago. I was super-honest (don't want anybody misunderstanding) and emphasized that this was the reprint, and explained how the reprinting was done.
I got less than $15 for it.
Sometime later, someone else sold the reprint and didn't say it was the reprint (they probably didn't know--it's not obvious unless you know what to look for).
It went for more than twice what I got.
Caveat emptor.
I bought a reprint of the 1939 BMT map about 5 years ago at the Transit Museum. I think it was about 5 bucks.
One problem with 1939 BMT maps on eBay is telling the difference between the originals and the reprints that were sold by the Transit Museum about 10 years ago for around $ 2.00. The reprints are identified in extremely fine print. On several occasions I have sent e-mails to sellers asking if they are selling an original or a reprint. I never got a reply so I never bothered to bid.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
I was going to bring up the same point. I purchased a reprint back in 1979 at the Cityana Gallry (no longer in business) when the TA had unveiled the proptypes for the new map and wanted feedback from the ridership.
Based on the scan provided in that bid I sincerely doubt that the map offered was an original.
It was around 20 years ago that I bought my 1930 BMT World's Fair map for $2.50. Even allowing for inflation, I don't think an original should cost more than $10.00.
I prefer rummaging at train shows for paper of all types, ranging from North Shore timetables to Lionel instruction books. I've noticed, though, that some transit postcards that were $2 a few years ago are starting to carry prices of $10 up, but there are still some good bargains--in December at the Albany show, I found a nice East Boston Tunnel Court Street Station postcard with streetcar for $4 and one with the Boston Forest Hill El terminal from 1911 for $7. Those prices are higher than they would have been four or five years ago, but are still within reason. But I won't pay $15 or $18 for a postcard of Spring Street station on the original New York subway.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
In an auction, the value of an item will go NO HIGHER than a buyer is willing to pay for it and will NEVER go more than a little more than the next highest bidder's price. This is pure economics and serves very well for the transactions we are discussing. have fun and if something gets too expensive, drop out.
In an auction, the value of an item will go NO HIGHER than a buyer is willing to pay for it and will NEVER go more than a little more than the next highest bidder's price. This is pure economics and serves very well for the transactions we are discussing. have fun and if something gets too expensive, drop out.
This is generally true, but sometimes people bid more than they should if they don't know that the item is available elsewhere at a lower price. For example I have seen people bid very high amounts for R-9 grabhandles that are generally available at railroad shows at much lower prices. Sure they are willing to pay it but only because they don't know better.
But I won't pay $15 or $18 for a postcard of Spring Street station on the original New York subway.
No, absolutely not - especially since I just paid $3.00 for one on eBay! I'm also awaiting delivery on an unusual City Hall postcard, showing City Hall and park above and the station underneath. Once I get that one I'll take the time to scan my last four or five acquisitions and post a link where you all can peruse them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry for my typo--obviously, it should have been '1939' in the map reference.
BTW, I recently found a Sloane House (YMCA) Nostrand map from the late 1930s which has the traditional BMT yellow and the IRT blue reversed. It has both the 6th Avenue El (but not the extension north of 53rd on 6th) and the 6th Avenue Subway shown as under construction.
The map is 9 1/4" wide by 16 1/2" high, with a red border and folds down three folds and across three.
It has all the Manhattan, Bronx, and joint Queens elevateds, as well as the BMT Ls, but the BMT L routes are a bit strange. There is the expected black ink line for the 5th Avenue L splitting at 36th Street to go to 65th street and into the Culver cut and down the Culver (in the middle of the blue subway color), but the L lines are also on the West End, on the Sea Beach from Stillwell halfway to 86th Street, and on the Brighton from Stillwell to Avenue H station, then again from Prospect Park to Franklin Avenue/Fulton Street. On the Eastern Division, in addition to Myrtle, Lexington, and Fulton, the map has L designations from Delancey across the Bridge all the way to 168th Street and also from Eastern Parkway to Canarsie.
The flip side has no service information; in the center is a small rectangle with a picture of the Sloane House (34th and 9th) and some information about the facility (1493 sleeping rooms, etc.). A single room with private bath was $2.00.
I bought the map because of the blue/yellow reversal--I had never seen one like it before; IND lines are in red.
It would be great to see a service directory matching the map.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Philadelphia's Broad Street Subway is the only that uses full-width cabs for OPTO. Even so, railfan windows still manage to exist. Behind the front cab, there are 3 windows (one on a door to the cab). 2 of those windows are plated glass. But the third is not, so one can look through the window as if it were a genuine railfan windows. In the NYC OPTO cars, are there any windows like this, or are they all plated glass?
Also, one must not forget about the back of the train. On the Broad Street Subway, the back cab is closed off to passengers. If they opened that cab, there would be 2 more seats, plus a back railfan window. Why is it that they do not do so? Is it some form of courtesy to employees. Or do they do this somewhere?
They keep the cabs locked to prevent vandalism.
-Hank
But of course, people could vandalize other cabs in the middle of the train that are not locked.
Have ny images been posted from the
POLO III tour? I've compiled a GREAT
55 minute video from POLO III..
would like to do it all again.
Have any images been posted from the
POLO III tour? I've compiled a GREAT
55 minute video from POLO III..
would like to do it all again.
Well.... I asked if anyone was interested and I recieved several E-Mails from interested parties. So I guess another walk is possible. Prehaps in late February or early March. Stay tuned.
I was informed by someone and am trying to find out if it is true, that there are cameras in car # 9101 operating on the # 2 line. can anyone give me any information on this and if any other cars have them?
I don't know, but even if I did know or if I knew the guy who could answer your question, it would and should remain secret! After all, if the car numbers which had cameras were published, don't you think the word would get around to the "bad guys"? I don't want them to know! The police want to catch these punks!
The MTA in Baltimore has outfitted all LRV's, subway cars and all the latest buses plus a smattering of older FLX's with cameras. The introduction was accompanied by the press release announcing them. The VCR is housed in a locked underseat cabinet, and the cameras are small enough to be almost unnoticed unless you know what to look for. So far, police have been able to use the footage for arrest material in on-vehicle vandalism and passenger assults on buses.
what else do they use the cameras for ?? ............... SNOOPING ??? !!!!
When a bus accident happens, people often make believe they were injured on that bus even though nobody reports an injury at the time. These people are captured by the cameras by the virtue that they don't show up on them.
How can a camera on a public conveyance like a bus or train, or in a train station, possibly be considered "snooping"?!?! If one is in a public place, in full view of the public, they **know** that anyone could come along and see what they're doing. And what some member of the public (including a cop or a transit employee) could come along and see with their own two eyes doesn't suddenly become an invasion of privacy just because it is seen through a television camera instead.
Funny
ONLY in NYC does having closed circuit television in subways and on the street considered snooping and invasion of privacy.
Other major cities in this country and others have cameras and no one complains. Can it be that those people do not realize that their privacy is being violated. No, it's that this city is inhabited by trouble makers who want their liberty to do crime and hide behind the invasion of privacy argument when they feel that their "liberty" is being taken away.
And it's also that we have certain groups in this city that encourage this type of behavior. They don't have to be mentioned, they are on television yelling about these issues all the time. I would like to see where the heads of these groups live. Nine times out of ten, they live in an exclusive house in a gated "neighborhood watch" community or in a building with armed doormen, guard dogs, and CLOSED CIRCUIT TVs.
Paranoia strikes deep.
Into your heart it will creep.
good idea to catch those vandall rats and crime. i wonder if it would really work?
"Chronicling life riding the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA)"
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/archive/vol3/wb3-01.html
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
In the Sundays Daily News, there is a pic of a car that landed onto the tracks at the E.180St yard from the Bx River Pkwy. I knew it was bound to happen..........
3TM
Yeah, good thing the equipment was underground....
-Stef
Mine is the White Plains Rd line. I love the way the tracks ascend up from Bx Pk E to Gun Hill Rd. Love all the Curves in the lower half of the line(After E. 180St, Manhattan bound). With the Redbirds days numbered I think I better make a couple of Railfan trips up that side......
Comments........
3TM
IRT 1/9
SouthFerry1/9
The number 2 rules because It is the better of the Broadway lines and its the longest IRT line
Any line that I can get my overtime on!!!
I Sure had fun shooting a RAILFAN-WINDOW-VIDIEO of it and out of it from the front car !!!!
and the REDBIRD BUCKED LIKE A WILD BRONCO !! the vidieo came out real nice !!!
THE IRT # 2 line !!!!! 4 hours long recorded in the lp mode !!! 8 mm
I'd have to say that any express route whose equipment includes a railfan window will do. The Brighton line comes to mind. With all due respect to the R-46s, the 75-footers will not do.
I say the IRT number 2 line is the best. I say that because even the number 3 has a tiny railfan window, and I checked the speedometer. The speedometer read only 30-35 most of the time, and this, sadly, is when the signals aspect is clear. Lets face it people. I say that the number 2's Redbird R29 cars can beat the R-62's any day of the week. Even if you decide to take an express to 72nd and broadway, the 2 will be faster. I will always pick the number 2, over the 3 as the better half of the broadway express trains. Midnight when trains go local, thats a different story.......
In NYC, of the lines I've done, I have a three way tie:
The Brighton/Culver
Broadway El
7th Avenue Express
I like lines with a view. The Brighton has such beuatiful ocean views towards Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach, the Culver has views of the CI Yards, the Broadway El(past the S curve) is a nice ride, especially across the bridge and the high speeds on the 7th Express beat any other in the city.
In Philly, nothing beats the El. The subway stays underground, the trolleys are no better than buses, the NHSL just shows you lots of trees as does most of the RRD.
As a kid I loved to ride the Jamaica El from the LIRR at Sutphin to Manhattan. But not at the railfan window but rather between cars with both stormdoors closed. I loved the 90 degree curves just w/o Franklyn K Lane going from Jamaica Av to Fulton. I know its dangerous and unlawful but I was a kid. Also as a kid (in the '60s) I loved any line with old equipment such as the Q's on the Myrtle, the Standards on the "LL", the Franklyn, and the Culver Shuttles, and the low-V's on the Bronx 3rd Av el.
Presently as an adult I love all the Coney Is bound BMT lines (hear that Bob & Fred?) and I love to stand at the railfan window (both front and rear) on the LIRR Main Line to Hicksville. I know its straight but its extremely fast and the RR crossings are great to watch and the interlocking just W/O Floral Park gives everyone a great jolt!!!
I also enjoy the LIRR between E.NY and Jamaica. It is extremely fast and I always try to spot the old Woodhaven Station.
Honorable mention: The LIRR Long Island City route on the Montauk Branch from LIC to Jamaica, however its not as great without the stations and there's only one train each way now.
I like the "Q" from Brighton Beach to B'way-Lafayette, the "L", and the #5 and #7 lines, too.
Wayne
The J line, a throw back to the El lines of a another era, the 7 line with the dramatic view of Manhattan, the 2 line with all the curves along with the 5 line, the A line through the Rockaways, if you are lucky to get a railfan train.
Since I am the BMTman my favorite lines are all in the County of Kings.
(1) The Brighton Line: for it's variety of operations between subway, open cut, embankment and elevated line. That is the creme de la creme of all rapid transit lines IMHO. Of course the embankment route is my favorite as it gives a feeling of the original steam operation on the line when Brooklyn was just a rural expanse.
(2) The Sea Beach Line: for similar reasons as above.
(3) The Canarsie Line: for it's "stand alone" aspects as a rapid transit line. Pretty much isolated in Brooklyn and containing some aspects of its original rural roots (running at grade in Canarsie) and using the great steel structure of Broadway/East New York.
Doug aka BMTman
" The Brighton Line: for it's variety of operations between subway, open cut, embankment and elevated line. That is the creme de la creme of all rapid transit lines IMHO. Of course the embankment route is my favorite as it gives a feeling of the original steam operation on the line when Brooklyn was just a rural expanse."
Well, the embankment portion was built in 1905-07. Steam had ceased in 1899. The original steam days ROW is only preserved on the Franklin Shuttle between Prospect Park and Park Place. In those days the whole line was just two tracks--on the surface from Bedford Terminal to Park Place, in open cut from Park Place to Church Avenue, and on the surface from Church Avenue to Brighton.
Alan Glick
"the embankment portion was built in 1905-07."
Of course the 1905-07 rebuild also included the open cut segment from Church Ave to Ave. H in addition to the embankment portion.
Alan Glick
Thanks. I know the history of line. I should have said THE ORIGINAL Brighton Line (which would include the Franklin Avenue Shuttle).
BTW, when I mentioned the embankment, I didn't mean that steam engines ran there, I was just noting the rural-like setting of the line over the embankment that someone could imagine themselves in the era of steam.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, I did think that that was possibly what you had in mind. But just to be safe, I decided to potificate.
Alan Glick
Actually, didn't the LIRR run steam trains up on the embankment alongside the Brighton Line?
Alan Glick
Yes, the famed Manhattan Beach branch.
--Mark
Yes, Austin Corbin's Manhattan Beach Line (it branched off the Bay Ridge near Ave. J.).
It was discontinued -- I believe -- in 1924 due to lack of ridership (no surprise there since the Brighton Line parelleled the Manhattan most of the way down to the shore. They shared the embankment, but parted ways near Sheepshead Bay -- the Manhattan Beach Branch having originally been a line terminating at Corbin's Manhattan Beach Hotel.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, passenger service ceased in 1924, but an interesting freight service survived into the 30's. South of Neck Road the original surface ROW had been retained for freight service in the area when the passenger line was put up on the embankment. I believe the race track ramp south of Neck Rd was used to reach the surface tracks. The Manhattan Beach embankment ROW was dismantled in stages. First to go was the embankment south of Neck Rd. The portion north of Neck road was retained so as to provide access, via the race track ramp, to the original surface ROW.
Alan Glick
(3) The Canarsie Line: for it's "stand alone" aspects as a rapid transit line. Pretty much isolated
in Brooklyn and containing some aspects of its original rural roots (running at grade in
Canarsie) and using the great steel structure of Broadway/East New York.
And its incomparable mosaics.
Wayne
The Brighton for all the reasons stated above plus choice of local and express. Also City Bound on a clear day you could see the skyline of Manhatten. Brooklyn Bound the run toward the beach. 2-The 7 Line in Bound for the views of the city, Sunnyside Yards. 3-Rockaway Line. I noticed only one person mentioned the Sea Beach and that was 2nd Fred I hope you read these posts. I also like the West End from 36th St South toward Coney Island. Have not ridden on the J/Z Lines or IRT above Yankee Stadium in years so I can t comment
There's something about being on a Manhattan-bound Q train of slant R-40s or even R-32s and seeing the Empire State Building looming dead ahead.
Nothing about this question indicated that it was specific to New York, so I'll add my two tokens worth...
In Chicago:
1) The Evanston Express. Going across the Wells Street Bridge gives one an incredible view of the Chicago River and the streetwall of Wacker Drive, and the express run between Belmont and Howard simply cannot be beat.
2) The Metra Heritge Corridor train to Joliet. 80 MPH between only four stops to Joliet while riding Metra's massive bi-level coaches. As an added bonus, the station in Joliet usually has about 2-3 large frieght trains pass through it during the 30-minute wait for the Rock Island train to take you back into the city.
Honorable Mention: The Orange Line to Midway. New 3200-Series railcars and continously-welded rails provide the smoothest ride in the CTA system, and the line provides incredible views of Chicago's gritty industrial belt as well as of plenty of freight trains.
New York City:
In my admittedly limited experience on the NYC system, I gotta go with the F train (IND 4th Avenue / BMT Culver Line) out to Coney Island. Looking out the window in the subway portion, I was fascinated by the abandoned express tracks on the lower level that would rise up to meet the local tracks every so often, and then sink back down into the darkness toward some unknown destination. Something very mysterious and intriguing about that for somebody who wasn't very familiar with the history of the line at the time. Also, in terms of sheer urban rawness, I found the Smith / 9th Street station incredibly fascinating. Reminded me of something I might see in either of my two favorite movies, Blade Runner or Dark City. Coming into West 8th Street on the lower level of a double-deck elevated structure was certainly interesting for this Chicagoan (any other double-deck elevateds in the NYC system?), and the Cyclone and Nathan's at the end of the line is icing on the cake.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
01/24/2000
My favorite railfaning lines on the NYCTA is definitely all BMT Southern Division. My favorite is the Brighton Line from Prospect Park to Coney Island. I always loved the view looking north on the Brighton on a clear day seeing the Empire State Bldg. far away. On a clear night seeing it illuminated gave me goosebumps.
Bill Newkirk
You asked if there were any other double decked els in the city other than from W8 St to Stillwell. Although that stretch isn't exactly an el since it doesn't go over any street (it goes just N/O Surf Av) I guess that can count as a double decked el. The only others I can think of are:The Flushing line between 111 St and Shea Stadium. It looks really good from the Grand Central Pkway.The White Plains Rd line at Gun Hill Rd with the old 3rd Av El connection. (I only assume its still double decked)The Queensborough Plaza Station (but only at the station)Although I'm too young to have ridden it (except the Bronx part) I think the Third Av El had some double decked parts. Maybe someone out there knows for sure. I know it was 2 levels on the bridge over the Harlem River but that wasn't an el.* NOTE: I will probably remember others after I go to bed!!!!
Cudahy's book "Under the Sidewalks of New York" has a great picture of the bi-level Lincoln Square el station, with the Sixth and Ninth Ave. els on different levels. Try to imagine concert- or opera-goers of today coming out of Lincoln Center and having that staring them in the face.
That'd be great!
For us, yes, but for the opera fans, this was the same group that wanted the old Met at 39th and Broadway torn down in the late 50s because the neighboring Times Square area was on the downslide. If they walked out of the Met today and saw a 40-foot high el in front of them they would scream from 64th St. to City Hall.
The old Met had become outmoded by the 50s as well. They had to store their stage sets across the street because there was no space in the theater itself.
Even so, there were those who lamented its passing, wishing it could have been saved from the wrecking ball the way Carnegie Hall was.
Fortunately, Carnagie Hall had a better location and more influential patrons, because the wrecking ball was supposed to hit it after Philharmonic Hall was completed. If it had, we'd probably see some franchised theme restaurant on that site today.
IIRC, an office building would have been built on that site. Being a musician myself, I'm grateful to Isaac Stern for launching the campaign to save Carnegie Hall. Now I hear the acoustics were "injured" when it was renovated...
Now THAT'S a show I'd see 100 times!
--Mark
I thought the 6th & 9th Av els came together on one level at 53rd and 9th. How and where did they separate to be on separate levels at Lincoln Sq.
I don't think they did separate. The bi-level structure was just the typical Dual Contract third tracking of express stations.
Alan Glick
According to this site, the middle track was around from when the line added biderectional tracking although express service didn't commence until 1916.
I thought the 6th & 9th Av els came together on one level at 53rd and 9th. How and where did they separate to be on separate levels at Lincoln Sq?
Going by Mr. Adler's fabulous 1920 elevated track map on this site, Chatham Square and City Hall el stations both had two levels, one for the Second Avenue and one for the Third. (Chatham Square had four sets of platforms, apparently: each line had two, one to City Hall and one to South Ferry. The South Ferry platforms were one above the other--over New Bowery/St. James Place, I guess, and the City Hall platforms were side by side a bit to the west.) Plus, many express stations had upper platforms for the higher third track, such as the one at Lincoln Square.
Good choice. The F was my first train (as an adult) to Coney Island.
Another double-deck elevated is Queensboro Plaza, on the #7 and N lines in Queens. Here, Manhattan-bound tracks are on the lower level while Queens trains are on the upper. I think it's the only station where IRT and BMT trains share the same platform (the two companies also jointly operated the Astoria and Flushing lines from this station eastward).
The East New York junction of the J/Z and L lines is also elevated, crossing each other in a kind of flattened "X" pattern. The L is on the upper level; there's also a connection to the underground A/C lines via escalator. Similar to this is the Myrtle Ave. station on J/M/Z, which has a now-unused upper level once served by the beloved Myrtle el. The Myrtle tracks south of Broadway have been removed.
First time subtalk long time bustalk contributor here,for me the best subway lines are the A past Rockaway Bl.going towards the Rockaways,The J from 121 to Marcy and the 7 line(entire route)especially the Queens Bl.viaduct.Kind of reminds me of the Brighton and Drye Ave Lines( the rythem of the wheels on the tracks)As for the LIRR the Port Washington Branch and the Long Beach Branch( great single track portions on the bridges)
I used to railfan on many lines when I was a teenager, but with todays (much) slower trains and more timers my favorites are 7th and Lex Ave expresses. I still like the NB Pelham Express also. Since moving from NYC I think I've gotten spoilt by these fast WMATA Metrorail trains.
Wayne
Brighton, Flushing and Broadway (Brooklyn) / Jamaica. Brighton for its variety, Flushing for its express run and Broadway / Jamaica for thinking about what Brooklyn was like in the age of the El.
--Mark
Lex express, especially N/B. Love the curves south of 14th, the descent to the lower level after 42nd (better with the old incandescent tunnel lights) and the upper east side speed, and the rise to the local level at 110th (or is it 103rd, I forget). Now if only the #6 was exp. in Manhattan, I could combine two great runs.
Close second is the 7th Av. express between 42nd and 96th. Speed! Curves! Followed by the E/F in Queens.
For scenery, it's the A to Far Rockaway, but I haven't ridden it in the daytime since 1985.
When the R-10s ruled supreme on the A, nothing could top the CPW express dash.
I noticed that the Pelham Cars are linkedto the tranverse cabs of the 3 line. I think that this is done to test the tranverse cabs for the 3 lines conductors. Any thoughts and comments???????
3TM
the reason that I know of is that the 3 line has the shuttle. during the chaneover 10 cars were taken from the pelham line and sent to the lenox line. at this time no lenox cars are linked.
I now noticed that the Pelham Cars are linked to the tranverse cabs of the 3 line. I think that this is done to test the tranverse cabs for the 3 line conductors. Any thoughts and comments???????
3TM
I saw a 3 train last fall whose first and last cars had full-width cabs on the outer ends, yet the cars were still single. Didn't see car #1956, although I did see 1958 and 1959 coupled together.
I was on 1956 a couple of days ago.........
3TM
At least I know it's out there somewhere.
01/31/2000
I don't know why the Pelham R-62A's are showing up on the #3. They still are running 9 car trains ?
Bill Newkirk
I'm planning my 3rd NYC railfan trip and this time I want to try the LIRR or MNRR.
What would a ticket from Penn to Far Rockaway cost me on a Saturday morning(about 9 am)? I would walk from the Far Rock LIRR station to the Far Rock subway station.
Also, what would a round trip from GCT to Rochelle cost?
And, how long would each trip be? I've never done either.
check outb the MTA Web Site and click on the Metro North and LIRR. Why New Rochelle, the Trip on the Hudson Line is more scenic, and North of Croton is Diesal. You would be traveling off peak
That's not a misspelling.
The Powers That BeTM have elected to revert me to being a human being on a trial basis. I wan't to ride some commuter lines. I don't want to spend too much money and I want to either have an alternative on return (no round trips) or something to do (anything) at the end making the round trip worthwile.
Here's what I've done (and won't do again in the same way or similarly)
LIRR:
Trains from LIC, Penn or Flatbush to Jamaica, from there out to Far Rockaway and Long Beach.
Far Rockaway return by subway, Long Beach return by N33 and subway.
I could take a nice round trip, or take a bus back from someplace.
MNR:
Arrival by subway
From Wakefield and Riverdale to GCT
NJT:
After first ride of Newark subway (before pantographs, arrival by PATH) to Penn Station.
As for PATH, the Subway and the SIR, I've been there and done all of that.
On the LIRR I'd like to catch some old diesels and on the MN, the ACMUs.
So, nobody has any suggestions on stuff I can ride? Remember I MUST ride those old diesels. I don't want to get any double deckers by accident (well, that's OK, but I want the old stuff!).
The Oyster Bay line!!!
Any busses that can take me back, or will I get a round trip on the same system?
Which direction is better?
What is there to do in OB?
To catch the ACMU's on MN, you'll need to ride peak hour Mon/Fri cause this is the only time they run AFAIK. Some trains that normally run ACMUs are the 4:24pm GTC - NWP the 6:08pm GCT - NWP (harlem line trains). I don't know if/when they run on the New Haven branch, but they certainly won't be on any train past New Roch (as the overhead wire starts here and the ACMU's are 3rd rail only.)
I'll only be there from about 9 to 5 and have to do every line in the Bronx(well, I don't have to, but I want to).
It's my mission to do the entire system by the end of the(sorry) millennium. I still need to do part of the Queens Blvd line, the Astoria line, most of the Rockaway line, the SIRT, the West End, parts of 4th Avenue, the Canarsie and Crosstown lines and the upper Manhattan(north of 125th St) subways.
I've got a lot to do. I average passing through about 50-70 stations per trip and hitting parts of every trunk line.
Although I see your point about taking the subway back I wouldn't take the Far Rock Line as your 1rst LIRR trip. I would recommend maybe a trip to Huntington and back. I would recommend one way electric with the railfan window and the other way diesel but I don't think you could get a diesel to Huntington on a Sunday, only on weekdays.(when they run trains from Jamaica to Port Washi Jefferson) Also I think the Oyster Bay Line is fun but since its all diesel there's no railfan window.
I can't answer your Metro North questions, but the one-way LIRR fare from Penn to Far Rock is $4.25. The trip will take about an hour and since you're travelling on a weekend, you will have to "Change at Jamaica".
The trip from Far Rock back into Midtown won't take much longer, since the A now runs express through Brooklyn on weekends, but you should check the MTA website for service disruptions. There have been a few on the A train through the Rockaways on recent weekends. There isn't much worse than standing in the Rockaways in bitter winter cold waiting for a shuttle bus.
Enjoy,
Chuck
It was the premiere hardware store in central Flatbush for at least a generation. It was located on Nostrand Ave. near Parkside Ave. just down the block from the Winthrop St. stop on the 2/5.
The family run business just closed up last year (including a leveling of the property). It was probably a victim from the competition of the larger mega hardware stores like Home Depot and Pergament.
BTW, while we're on the subject of old businesses, does anyone remember Gentz that was located right at the intersection of Flatbush/Nostrand Junction? It was a small resturant, but was a favorite family eatery up till the end. It was also a fav hangout for the Brooklyn College crowd. There is now a Kentucky Fried Chicken at that location. :-(
Doug aka BMTman
They had really good prime rib- a whole dinner for 9.95
Wasn t there a Foxys or Wolfies at the Junction of Flatbush and Nostrand?
The Map is sold out in ERA headquarters, I mailed out the last one couple weeks ago.
SEPTA will not be distributing its Metro newsletter, which had planned to be started tomorrow (1/24). While SEPTA admits that it is about 1-2 weeks behind schedule (gee, SEPTA behind schedule?!), a suit was filed by the two local dailies and the NY Times alleging that this was unfair, since SEPTA is not allowing the dispensing of their papers on its vehicles. Is this the First Amendment gone mad, or what? Are the papers that afraid of a little competition these days?
SEPTA had the first edition of Metro distributed today in honor boxes and handed out by employees at stations, despite the court problems. It's a very catchy little newspaper. I don't think the big boys (Phila Inquirer, Phila Daily News, NY Times and USA Today, the papers which are trying to stop Metro's distribution) have much to worry about - while Metro is free and informative, those who are newspaper junkies will stick with the originals.
I got one yesterday too.
Remember the phrase "success breeds competition"?
Does PNI and the rest think their circulation will be annhilalated by a compressed Daily News?
They should grow up.
I like the size and the way the paper folds. Kinda like the Daily News. That's what makes it a "subway paper". You can read it while riding mass transit. You wouldn't have a prayer trying to open up the Inquirer.
Chuck Greene
A couple of things I've read recently have said that there is a car shortage - that the number of cars is really providing a constraint on the service that is possible. I've read this in regard to the suspension of the C train, and some have said that the reason that the Lex is so crowded is not that it is at capacity, but because there are no cars to spare (an argument I have not heard before).
If this is true, it raises a question: has the TA been too quick to get rid of old cars in the recent past, or has it just been underfunded, so the new cars could not come in fast enough to replace cars that just had to go?
Related question: another thing I saw lately on Subtalk said that car availability is considerably lower than it was in the 50s. Is this true? I hope not! It should be a lot higher than it was back then!
One always has to be careful about what one reads here...
01/24/2000
One thing for sure, the TA should have never scrapped those overhauled R-30's. They were in decent shape and although they weren't air conditioned, they still could have been used for to supplement service where needed today. I know the TA doesn't have a lot of yard space for storage, but when they're gone, they're gone !
Bill Newkirk
THE OLDER CARS WERE BUILT BETTER !!!
Bull. The (Westinghouse or GE, I don't remember which) R-16s were some of the worst cars ever in the fleet. The Redbirds are rusting through. If they stay any longer they'll become too expensive to maintain.
The cars today have higher MDBF than ever. The leaders are newer cars like the R-62 and R-68.
I think you nailed it. The R-16 GE (called the "flat-bottoms") were one of the worst. Smile at them and they'd burn. The Redbirds are rusting away and according to a consultant hired by the MTA, are years beyond their useful life. The R-38s will be scrapped very soon, however, some of the R-32s may make the 1/2 century mark. The saving grace of the R-9 and R-10 was that they were basic, simple subway cars. If they had operated under todays subway conditions, they'd make history as the worst subway cars.
(Getting on the right thread here)
Why scrap an entire fleet like the R38s when there is a car shortage?
Shouldn't the decision to scrap be made car by car until there are not enough left in a class to operate a train? The individual cars that cost too much to repair or maintain could be stripped for parts, to allow the others to keep running at modest expense.
No one has proposed scrapping all 1984 Honda Accords, although some are probably on their way to the junkyard. If MDBF is good, the DBF of the best cars in a fleet is probably excellent. It seems that scrapping an entire fleet is throwing money away.
no matter how old the subway cars are, until they get new ones no scrapping should be allowed. look at the swarms of passangers that ride the subway! if they scrap the R38's now, they will be screwed. However, if they have enough R46's and R32/R32GE's then go on and scrap away.
The R38 will be the first car class currently in service on the B division to be retired. They were the first cars to go for a GOH (1987), plus have severe leakage problems with their metal roofs. But don't worry. No car class can be retired as of now, even when all the R143 cars are operational.
Thats what I said in another previous post,Chris. The R38s are very hansome in apperance and the lines they serve,they do well.Its the roof that gives riders and staff headechs. All in all,I will miss them when there gone
I won't. They're too dark, and their suspension system sucks.
The cars are bright enough, other cars are too bright. The R-142 will have an indirect lighting scheme as the lights will be designed to direct the brunt of their force at the walls and ceiling.
R38s are too dark
The ones with the advertisements containing the most black (and other dark colors) are the darkest. I suppose removing the ads would not be an option. Anyway, I don't mind the ambient light in an R38, nor do I mind the ride. In fact, the fastest trip aboard ANY subway (including my beloved R40s) train in recent memory came back on December 11th aboard an R38 - #4008. 53MPH, so I was told, and I believed it. We were FLYING. Broadway-Nassau to High Street in just about three minutes flat.
Wayne
I was on an R46 once which broke 55 MPH in the 60th St. tunnel. The conductor had his door open and I could see the speedometer.
I'm sure those babies were helped a bit by gravity ...
58 mph, R-32, 60th St tube towards Manhattan. This was before timed signals were put in (at least, I heard signals were put in .... that may not be true).
--Mark
Yes, they certainly would be helped by the downgrade there. That's pretty fast for an R46, although no doubt they are capable of good speed. Weren't they "built for speed" originally, like the R44s?
Wayne
Yup. I've been told they had a pre-GOH balancing speed of 80 MPH, as they were meant for the (LOL) 2nd. Ave line.
Yes, the R-44s and R-46s were built for speed. The 2nd Ave. line was planned for 70 mph speeds. We all know what happened there.
To me, the R-10s will forever epitomize speed, speed, and more speed.
For me, the R10 will always epitomize noise. Ear splitting, eardrum piercing noise.
Yep! R10 = Earsplittenloudenboomer. At least 90DB, louder still at speed. That's as loud as your average HM band. You KNEW you were on a subway train when you rode an R10. The noise was physical. I loved every minute of it.
Wayne
I remember back in 1969. I went to a party in Ozone Park, and I was staying at my cousin just over the City Line in Yonkers on Riverdale Ave. I rode all the way back from Queens on a R10 A Train. We really rocked, on the CPW stretch. When we got to 207th, the Motorman opened the door and I asked him how fast did we go. He said around 50. I also remember the stretch between 42nd and 86 and 86-125 on the Jerome Line (There was no 59th St station at the time) The speed limit was only 35, but the cars were quite noisy. My uncle who was a conductor usually on the old Brighton Line told me that the reason why it seemed faster, was 1-The trains were much noiser at the time, and 2-You were in a completely enclosed area, so it always seemed faster then they actually were. Is it physics? I don t know, or just day dreaming that speeds were faster rhen they really were
You pretty much covered it all. Noise, plus a confined space, gives the impression of high speed. Of course, the R-10s were fast to begin with. They were tailor made for the A line and the CPW express dash.
bad repair maintainence right ??
I was never able to listen to my walkman on an R10 train, ever. That's why I hated the @#$%& thing so much.
If the problem is in the roofs, can't the roofs be rebuilt or replaced, without scrapping the whole cars? Since the R-38s are stainless steel, they surely are not having corrosion problems like the "redbirds" are on the IRT.
Ah, but their roofs are still carbon steel, and therein lies the leak.
Some of them (i.e. #4122-4123) seem to have gotten new roofs. I wonder if this is the beginning of a trend or just an isolated case.
Wayne
Those roofs are being patched with what looks like caulk, aluminum foil, duct tape, and bubble gum.
Replacing the roof will do more harm than good. You'd basically be detroying the integrity of the car, and asking for more leaks.
-Hank
Only the skin of the R-38s is stainless steel. The R-32s are stainless steel throughout. Budd is to stainless steel cars the way Mercedes is to diesel passenger cars.
If the city had bought the 400 Budd-designed R11 cars it had planned to, I'd bet they'd STILL be running today. One wonders why they Board of Transportation didn't see the advantages of stainless steel when it was introduced by these cars way back in 1949.
They were cheap idiots.
If Budd hadn't purposely underbid on the R-32, it would be another carbon steel car by St. Louis. Even so, they still didn't buy all stainless steel in the R-38.
Fools.
These are the same people who scrapped the triplex while it was still in good condition and the R-1/9s were failing, the same people who gave us BMT cinderblock tile. I would expect no better.
The R-11s were intended for the 2nd Ave. line. Need I say more?
Dave could start a seperate section on the website just for "Trains built for the Second Ave. line"
You could have the R-11, the R-44, the R-46, and if the stubway gets preliminary approval in the next few years, I'm sure the MTa will call the car order designed to replace the R-38s as trains designed for the Second Ave. subway.
So were the R44/46 cars, yet they were ordered.
Yep, they sure were.
The R-11 cost $121,373 per car while the R10 cost $77,319 per car. This meant that the R-11s were 57% more expensive than the R-10s. (BTW the R12s were $71,487 each) At the time, mass transit ridership had peaked in 1946 and was declining due to the increased availability of automobiles. Also at this time, the fare was still frozen (by law) at a nickel. The board of transportation made a business decision....
You'd think the stainless-steel R11 cars would've saved a lot of money with a longer lifespan and the lack of a need for regular painting. I'm sure when everything was added up, the R11 would've been more cost effective than the later R16's.
Slapping a stainless steel exterior on 200 BMT standards in 1954 would have been more cost-efficent than the R-16...
The R-11 cost $121,373 per car while the R10 cost $77,319 per car. This meant that the R-11s were 57% more expensive than the R-10s. (BTW the R12s were $71,487 each)
How much of the cost differential was due to lack of quantity discount? After all, there were 400 R10's, 100 R12's and only 10 R11's.
Since I was not there when the two contracts were written, I can't say. Good point though..
Now let's look at the R40 through R62 and R68-including all sub-types( slant, modified and "A"). How much of these classes are stainless steel
R-44 and up are stainless steel inside and out.
David
Thanks. Now what about the R40 (Slant and Modifieds) and R42 and the R127/R134 (work cars)
The R-40/R-40M and R-42 (as well as the R-38) do not have stainless steel framing. I'm not sure about the R-127/R-134, but I would imagine that they have stainless steel framing, as that has been the standard in the NYC transit system for some time now. Besides, not many of us get to ride them :-)
David
The R127/134 cars are designed on an R62 frame, so I'd assume they are completely stainless steel.
It's nice to see the MTA finally realize that any car built completely of stainless steel, properly maintained, can last in service for 50 years or more.
01/27/2000
The R-44 wasn't TOTALLY made of stainless steel. Remember where the blue band was painted around the car? That was steel, and before GOH was showing signs of rust. The R-44's on SIRT had the steel band replaced with stainless steel on their GOH, the NYCTA R-44's didn't.
Bill Newkirk
Why not? Sounds stupid to leave that rusting carbon steel there on the subway R44's...
01/27/2000
I don't know Chris R-16, maybe it would keep the cost of the GOH down and maybe there was some miracle rust proofing and caulking involved. I don't see any rusting. I went to Morrison Knudsen back when they were being overhauled and saw gell type paint remover applied to the bands. But like I said, the SIRT R-44's had the bands replaced with stainless steel. I know, go figure!
Bill Newkirk
If you look closely at an R-44, you can see that it is painted gray where the blue band used to be to match the stainless steel of the rest of the car - but on some of them, you can see rust starting to peek through the paint.
subfan
Nobody's suggesting retiring the R-38 now. The R-143, when delivered, will provide a sufficient surplus necessary to ameliorate the negative effects of a shortage, in addition to allowing additional service to meet demand and for the proposed services (63rd Street, split 6 Ave-B'Way). The order proposed in the 2000 capital plan has a number of cars required to replace the R-38 through the R-42 on a one to one basis. At that time, there will not be a shortage of cars, if there will be a shortage, it will likely be of tracks.
In addition, more R-142s will be delivered, then Redbirds scrapped. The following order (same 2000 cap plan) will replace the remaining Redbirds one to one. It will likely come before any B division order (except for the already let R-143) as the Redbirds are in more dire need of replacement.
A big problem in dealing with new subway cars is that the systems continually get more complex, requiring an engineer or technician instead of a 'hammer mechanic' to keep them running. The issue with the older equipment is not its simplicity, it's the simple fact that the bodies and running gear are worn out, and can only be rehabbed once or twice before nothing shoret of complete replacement is feasible. Yes you could buy more redbirds, exact replacements for the existing ones.
Here is what you would get:
A cor-ten or carbon steel body which will still rust out and demand paint every few years
A control group with lots of moving parts and that means more wear and tear and more maintenance effort.
The same trucks that came under the R-12, with axle mounted motors, just like those from the first IRT cars. All that unsprung weight is tough on the tracks.
No systems to detect failures before they happen, or redundancy for when they do.
Ten separate jerks as the ten cars in a train take power independently, with the attendant wear and tear on draft gear.
On the other hand with new technology we eliminate things like:
Motor Generators with brushes, commutators, and bearings to wear.
Rollsigns and theur maintenance
Flashing lights and frequent replacement of bulbs and tubes.
Starting resistors and most contactors.
I could go on and on, but the point I want to make is that: yes the old cars were simple but the things that could (and did) break were harder and more expensive to repair (from a labor standpoint). I will miss the redbirds, I rode the R-36WFs when they were new, and within the last year but time marches on. Give the new cars a chance, and hope that they are never allowed to deteriorate like the whole fleet was in the 1970s. And also hope that people like Steve, who care about what they are doing, continue to work for NYCT.
The preceding was not a paid political announcement....
I believe! I believe! Where do I give? :)
--Mark
The saving grace of the R-9 and R-10 was that they were basic,
simple subway cars. If they had operated under todays subway conditions, they'd make history as
the worst subway cars.
Could you elaborate on that statement? What are the different
conditions, and how would they have negatively affected these cars?
In general, the R-9s and R-10 ran in an era where running service down 20 trains was common. Today, being down one train is cause for the bells to start ringing. Hence, under today's service requirements, many more defective cars would be run in service. Then, look at the 'technology of the R-9 and R-10s. Fans instead of AC. Group switch boxes that were very unreliable by comparison to the SCM-1. In the case of the R-9s AMU brakes more frequently went into emergency when too hard a brake was requested. M-Gs instead of converters. Incadescent lighting on the R-9s. No PA . C/R operating from outside. The list goes on and on.
I asked the question not to be adversarial but to amplify
a subtle point in your post. The thread is "Older is
definitely not better". I would say "Old is not necessarily
better, but then again, neither is newer".
There's no doubt that today's subway cars are a lot more reliable
and have a lot more features than their historical predecessors.
I should hope so, otherwise the entire industry is rolling backwards.
Sometimes you have a blip.....the R-44 comes to mind, but generally
as engineering and manufacturing improves, so does the end
product. Features have also been added that are inarguably beneficial
such as A/C, P/A and interior door controls. SMEE braking is
a far superior system to AMUE, mostly because SMEE dropped support
for the "legacy" train air system and was designed from the start
to be a rapid transit brake system, rather than a railroad brake
with rapid transit kluge-ons.
However, what is disturbing is how the transit system's flexibility
and skill-to-technology ratio has declined over the years. You
get to supervise car maintainers that can't read or write English
and you know what kind of shape RTO is in. Compare the skill level
of a car maintainer back in the 1940s versus the level of technology
he was maintaining, then apply that comparison to today's
maintainers and today's equipment. The new tech trains are so
complicated they make an as-delivered R-46 look like a streetcar!
On the operations side, you better believe spare ratio is critical
today. Yeah, the R9s and the R10s did go through a period where
being down 20 trains at rush hour was OK, that being the period of
declining ridership. They also served during periods when equipment
was scarce, such as the 1950s when the TA went so far as to purchase
cars from Staten Island. One thing that has changed, though, is
the reduced flexibility arising from permanently-coupled trainsets
as well as the unwillingness of RTO to cut or add at terminals.
I took your last posting on its' face. I didn't view it as adversarial. Sorry if I gave that impression....
As for supervising non-english speaking maintainers - I can tell you this. In 1993 I was asked to work at 1250 Bway to pre-screen applicants for the job of CME, Car Inspector & RCI. The TA planned to hire over 100 provisionals at that time. Ads were placed in the 3 local daily newspapers as well as papers in other cities with large labor pools.
Now, the reality is that most people applying for the jobs had little or no subway experience. They came from Con Ed, Bell Atlantic, Airlines or Local 3. Many came from foreign countries, claiming great academic accomplishments or vast job experience. I had prepared several questions in each of the previously mentioned job catagories. For example: If a gentleman told me he was a mechanic for Tower Air, I'd ask what type of planes he'd worked on. He'd say Boing 747. My next question would be, "In the AC system on a 747, what thype of freon is used? If they didn't know, I assumed that the guy was full of S&^t.
The previously mentioned ad gave specific educational and work experience requirements. It also stated that the applicant had to speak and understand english. When I found one who couldn't speak or understand english, I disqualified him/her immediately. After three days I got a call from the head of the Dept. telling me that I could return to my normal duties at the end of the week. It seemed that an Org. that specialized in getting work for Russian Immigrants had complained that I was too hard on their candidates. Well business may be business but politics is politics and when a City Councilman from a very Russian District complains, the TA jumps. Hence the following:
Me to Russian Employee: "DO you speak english?"
Russian Employee Replies: "I speak perfect english."
Me: "Well then, how tall are you?"
Russian Employee. "One Hundred Sixty-Two Pounds."
Need I say more?
I think the problem lies with your department head and not with the prospective candidate, immigrant aid society or city councilman. The immigrant aid society and councilman were doing their jobs in trying to help a client. Your department head may not have been doing his job to help his clients - the shops and his supervisors.
Hindsight is 20-20, but personnel departments usually spelled out to supervisors how to evaluate a prospective candidate during an employment interview. At least they did, when I was conducting interviews for a large organization. The so-called sensitivity lecture was really a lesson on how to disqualify a candidate without giving him recourse to a bias complaint. You might have given him a technical manual and asked him questions to demonstrate his technical skill or lack thereof. Again, hindsight is 20-20.
In a shop setting or on the mainline with trains moving, not being able to communicate clearly can mean the deat of another employee. When I yell "HOT SHOES" or "CLEAR UP", I want to know that everyone around me knows that there is the potential for danger. I also want someone who sees a dangerous condition to be able to warn me. Poor communications can mean death in the real world of trains. As Clint Eastwood said in "Magnum Force", "That's a hell of a price to pay for being stylish."
You may have misunderstood my thrust. I certainly appreciate that there are environments wherein the ability to communicate clearly in English can be one's most important skill.
Human Resource departments give a lesson on how to conduct job interviews because there is a potential for a bias complaint. The object was to teach interviewers how to conduct an interview without giving an applicant any basis for such a complaint. Having the department head remove the interviewer was not part of that curriculum.
Hey, if you could speak Russian, with the economy in the shape its in over there, you could probably cream off the entire staff of the Moscow Subway.
So, what type of freon is used on a 747?
Hahahahah
There's no AC on a 747 (at least none that i know of) They use a heat pump and compress super cold air from the outsid and warm it.
There has to be some form of it, otherwise the plane would get unbearably hot sitting on the tarmac. Your explanation of how it's done in the air makes sense, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The R-26 to 36 cars among the best in the system.They have provided yeoman service for years thru out the IRT division. Under the conditions these cars operated in, its a wonder that they are still around today. This is a plus for American car builders of the past. Things were built to last.Pride went into each and every car,and that shows to this very day. The BUDD COMPANY should and would be commened because of the R32 cars. Too bad their not around anymore. These cars are pound for pound the best rail cars ever made in my book. They jumped like jackrabbits and were fast prior to OH. Today, they are still fast ,even with the added weight. I agree the TA should have keep the r27/30s around untill more cars were ordered to replace them,cause the R68/68a didn't do the job. DON'T get me wrong, I like those cars,but they are not the 27/30s[if you know what I mean] As I understand it, the R38s will be replaced next. I hope that doesnt happen any time soon. They were quite noisy and not as fast the 32s or slant 40s,now they have bad roofs and ceillings,but over all a good rail car nevertheless.
Given the overall car shortage on the B division, I don't see why the TA should scrap any cars anytime soon. What's the downside of removing old cars from service as needed, stripping them for parts, and reconstituing trains? Are the savings from scrapping an entire class that great?
It seems to me scrapping should be a car by car decision, based on the availability of parts and the cost of maintenance or repair, until you get below the number of cars required to outfit an entire train. No one has proposed scrapping all 1984 Honda Accords, regardless of how they are running.
Once again ,I agree. I only stated that the 38s have bad roofs and the TA planed to replace them first when the time came. Question,during the 80s before the r62, the TA was asked to purchase second hand cars from other systems untill new cars could be ordered. Of course they refused,but if they did, where do you think those cars would come from,and if that happened today the same question applys.
why would they do such a thing anyway? subway cars from another transit system wouldn't work because of their dimensions and possible passenger capacity. also, their is a chance that the cars wouldn't last one year if they are old
The 01400s from Boston would have worked in the BMT/IND. And probably driven ten times as many riders off the system as they did in Boston! ;)
Chicago's rapid transit cars would most likely fit on the IRT division. We've got a whole fleet of 2600's we'll gladly exchange for some redbirds. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
It'd be cool watching a redbird go around one of those 90° turns in chicago. Course, I think it would derail, but if it could, it would be awfully cool.
The Redbirds could probably run on the Red line, which doesn't have any extremely sharp curves, and possibly the Blue line. At 51 feet, they're three feet longer than a Chicago L car.
Also (and much more importantly) much heavier!
Quite true. The heaviest L cars in Chicago were the all-steel 4000s, with an average weight of 38 tons. That was your typical weight for an R-17. Those 4000s would have been right at home in New York in that regard. Plus, they topped out at about 40 mph, so they could run as-is in New York today, theoretically.
The Red Line has a sharp S-curve at the Sheridan stop on the North Side, and the Blue Line has a sharp 90-degree curve at each end of the Dearborn Street subway. The douglas branch of the Blue Line adds a couple more sharp curves.
Now that I think about it, I think the Skokie Swift is the only line on the CTA system that doesn't have any very tight curves. And of course, this is way up on the North Side and is hardly a major part of the CTA system. I believe this is the only line where they were able to run the SOAC train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
The minimum radius curve for ALL Redbird classes (R26, R28, R29, R33, R33WF, R36WF, R36ML) is 90 feet. They would probably not derail on Chicago's "L" curves, but the danger of sideswiping passing trains might well exist as they are a few feet longer than the CTA cars.
Wayne
Information courtesy of NYCTA Passenger Car Data 1947-1968.
Are there any cases of an American rapid transit operator buying used cars? Streetcars are a different story; they have been frequently swapped among different operators. Latest case: ex-SEPTA PCCs to run in Kenosha, WI, this year.
The Norristown line may be the rapid transit exception, although that is more light than heavy rail. Still, it used former CTA el cars for awhile.
None among subway systems that I know of. However, when some of Newark's PCC's get to MUNI they will be entering their third lives - Minneapolis, Newark, San Francisco.
Wayne
If the MTA was that desperate for cars prior to the R62 purchase, then why did they retire the entire R12 class in 1981? Were they all in THAT bad a condition?
Ridership was declining back then, so the TA must have felt they could get away with it. Plus the whole system was approaching rock bottom, with 30% of the fleet out of service.
Don't forget there were only 100 R-12s to begin with.
Exactly. It's stupid to retire an entire car class (even if their was only 100 cars, that's 10 extra trains, 11 if they were needed on the #3) without replacements when the state of the fleet is in such a precarious position. Just sounds very dumb to me, unless something about the condition of the R12's made them totally unusable by 1981.
AND there were also 150 R14 cars, which were almost identical to the R12.
Differences between R12 and R14:
* R14 125 pounds heavier than R12.
* .01 difference in HP per ton
* Slight difference in weight distribution
Other than that they were identical.
Wayne
02/03/2000
Let's not forget the R-12/14's ever unpopular conductors operating position.
Bill Newkirk
True. However, once the R-12s and R-14s were transferred to the mainlines, they never ran in solid trains except for the ones on the 3rd Ave. el. On top of that, those interspersed R-12s and R-14s were never positioned in the middle of a train at the conductor's station.
The R-10s had those same exterior door controls, yet they ran in solid trains, oh, about 99% of the time.
I bet working the C line when it was all R10 was the least favorite job for any conductor. I'd be scared to death to open/close doors in that position.
Nobody has recommended the scrapping of all 1984 Accords because nobody has authority over them. If you owned a fleet of cars and had several '84 Accords, it would be up to you to discard them and replace them with a new car if you wished. If all '84 Accords were purchased by this fleet, then the owner could choose to scrap them based on the cost effectiveness of maintaining them versus replacing them. As these cars age, they will be prone to more breakdowns, and will have to be sidelined for a longer period of time. More shop space will be needed, they will be unable to achieve as much service and with age, the repairs could become costly. Eventually a point is reached where the cars have to be replaced. With new cars available, there is neither the room or the need to maintain and keep the cars.
Each class is unique, if you kept a certain amount of cars, all of one class, then you would only need the sets of replacement parts, repair equipment and expertise needed to maintatin them. If these cars were spread over multiple classes, while there would be overlapping replacement parts, repair equipment and expertise, not everything would overlap, there would be unique requirements that to maintain would cost additional money, and the lack of focus might affect maintenance quality. There would be no reason to maintain cars in once class, generally worse, just because they work better than some cars in the better class.
Have you heard of CARB? The California Air Resources Board? As I understand it, they actually wanted to buy old cars from people, to cut pollution.
-Hank
This s a lot of sense- a twenty year old car may well emit hundreds of times more smog-causing pollution than a late nineties car. Not to mention the few cars out there without catalytic converters installed.
Nobody's proposing to scrap the R-38s or any other BMT-IND car class at this time. The R-143 order is for 212 cars, and every last one of these cars will be an addition to the fleet, not a replacement for another subway car.
The NEXT order for BMT-IND equipment will be replacements for cars in the R-32, R-38, R-40/R-40M, and R-42 fleets. Most of the cars to be replaced will NOT be R-32s, since they're stainless steel inside and out; the others have stainless steel exterior walls, but the roofs, #1 ends, and framing are made from other materials.
David
The R-26 to 36 cars among the best in the system.
They are not. You may think that because of the fondness you have towards them.
They have provided yeoman service for years thru out the IRT division. Under the conditions these cars operated in, its a wonder that they are still around today.
Which suggests than had the conditions been any worse, they wouldn't, making them borderline now. I do not doubt that they provided yeoman service for years throughout the IRT, but that is the past, what divides us from the past is time, and time takes it's toll on all.
This is a plus for American car builders of the past. Things were built to last.Pride went into each and every car,and that shows to this very day.
I wonder why these people went out of business? Of course, it has to do with the fact that for that reason, it wasn't efficient to build that way.
(some stuff about the R-32, which I myself like, removed)
I agree the TA should have keep the r27/30s around untill more cars were ordered to replace them,cause the R68/68a didn't do the job.
Only for one reason, there weren't enough new cars to replace the old. If there had been more 68s, they would have done the job.
DON'T get me wrong, I like those cars,but they are not the 27/30s[if you know what I mean]
Perhaps I do know. The R-27/30s posses a particular charm for you, which the R-68 does not, and for that you like them better, regardless of their deficiencies against the R-68. Feelings like that are not the way to run a subway in the business of moving people. It can be used to run museums, but that assumes that the conveyance exists exclusively for the purpose of amusement.
As I understand it, the R38s will be replaced next. I hope that doesnt happen any time soon. They were quite noisy and not as fast the 32s or slant 40s,now they have bad roofs and ceillings,but over all a good rail car nevertheless.
You just mentioned a few deficiencies of the R-38, yet you go on to mention they are a good car, why? Where are advantages that cancel out the disadvantages? If those advantages are the same as the aforementioned reasons re: R-27s/30s, then they aren't advantages at all. A car should have a good, solid roof, and be free of useless noise.
Contrary to popular belief, the R26-36 (redbird) class of cars are falling apart due to rust. This isn't reflected in their still excellent MDBF. And as for "American" cars of the past being built better, that's not true. The R40, 42 and 44 (St. Louis Car) and 46 (Pullman) were all troublesome cars. Not to mention those R16 lemons put out by ACF in the fifties.
The best cars in the system today were built in Japan (the Kawasaki R62A's and R68A's) and Canada (The Bombardier R62 and the R68).
However, those Budd R32's are winners. They'll see their 50th birthday, something only the BMT standard can claim.
kawasaki built the r62/68a/110a and soon r143 cars. Westinghouse/Amrail built R68[425 cars].
The R62 (no "A") cars running on the #4 line were built by Bombardier. The R62A cars on the 1, 3, and 6 lines were built by Kawasaki.
Chris: R62 is not built by Bombardier, it built by Kawasaki & R62A is built by Bombardier not Kawasaki.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
No, he was right.
Who built the R62 cars now running on the #4? I always thought that these cares were Bombardier models, and the R62A cars running elsewhere are Kawasaki models.
It appears I reversed the 2 car classes and their manufacturers. Sorry for posting incorrect information.
All of the #4 cars I've ridden in have been Kawasaki's.
F/U question ... how many of the Bombardier models came with Rail Fan window vs. full width cabs ?
2nd question ... are only some of the full width cabs outfitted with a window on the left side ? (kind of a half a Rail Fan window ... almost a much fun a peeking thru the inside door on the full width cabs that the T/O has ajar with the "Yellow Stick").
Mr t__:^)
Before being linked into 5 car sets, almost all of the R62A cars i rode on had railfan windows.
Also the R62's........
3TM
01/27/2000
When the R-62A's were tested on the #7 line over 10 years ago, they had full width cabs. This was temporary for the test period only and went back to standard cabs when the R-62A's returned to the mainline.
Bill Newkirk
I do remember that until a few years ago, you could look out the front on all R62 cars running on the 1, 3 and 6 lines. Now, only the #3 has railfan windows, and when the redbirds go bye-bye, they will be the only IRT mainline trains to have them.
(railfan window filmers, get all the footage you can possibly get of the Lexington Ave. line now, because when the redbirds go, so does any possibility of actually seeing out the front of a Lexington Ave. train)
they'll be gone soon too. soon the only railfan window you'll see is that little glass box in the middle of the cabe door facing foward.
About a third of the 3 line cars have full width cab. But they do have the little opening on the cab door. This evening and yesterday evening I was able to look through it..........
3TM
Then we'll all be singing, "Bye-bye, (Red)Birdies...."
No rim shot - it will be a sad day indeed.
Not for everyone.
maybe the single cab was a cost cutter. however the R62's never had full width cabs until i started noticing them around 1997.
01/27/2000
t.b.
I don't know if that was because of being a cost cutter or maybe it had something to do with the test service on the #7. But did remember seeing the full width cabs and was amazed. And this was before there was OPTO !
Bill Newkirk
All the R62/62A were built with a convertible cab. The widecabs were planned from the start.
-Hank
They'll see their 50th birthday, something only the BMT standard can claim.
Some Manhattan El cars started as steam coaches and were converted to electrics in 1902. Some of those lasted more than 50 years.
Then there are the Q cars. They retired at 65 years.
They were made of wood. Wood rots, but doesn't rust. You can fix damage to wood a hell of a lot easier than you can fix rust. Wood rot won't spread if caught quickly, but once you notice rust, you're screwed.
-Hank
There are processes that will stop rust, if caught quickly. They are relatively expensive so they are not universally used. The replacement cost for subway cars would have made them likely candidates. The processes has been around for 60+ years.
Nearly all of the Gibbs Hi-Vs logged more than 50 years of service.
While the BMT standards were on the scene for 54 years overall, very few of them actually put in 50 years of revenue service on an individual basis. The average BMT standard put in roughly 47 years. The typical Lo-V lasted about 45 years.
That's still remarkable when you consider that the R16, R17, R21, R22 and R27-30 never made it past their 32nd birthdays.
People were less abusive to the old trains than the were to the new ones. The Standards, Triplexes, High Vs and Low Vs would have had a hard time reaching their advanced ages if the same people riding (and spray painting) the trains had been around 50 years earlier,though the R-16 GE's mechanical woes would have hurt it no matter what era it ran in.
Thankfully, the Standards, Triplexes and Low-V's were put out to pasture before the grafitti scourge took hold. I wouldnt want to imagine what they would look like defaced.
Probably they'd look like the Eastern Division R-7/R-9 cars did, paint -pots all, esp.#1548, #1708, #1710, #1694 &c. Oddly enough, the Jamaica Yard R-6s and R-7s escaped the graffitti scourge (except those tagged by Pentagram, who seemed to like to paint ONLY on the R-6/R-7, and there weren't too many of them *).
You are right, however; the oldtimers DID escape graffitti. It would have been a damn shame to see them painted so.
* according to my graffitti index, 1973-1974, the only year I kept it.
Wayne
Thankfully, I never saw a graffitied R-1/9. I rode on them for the last time in 1971, by which time my visits to the city were rare and infrequent, and the trains were still clean. During all of 1974 and 1975, I didn't set foot on the subway at all.
You can thank deferred maintenance for playing a major role in that.
There is another point. Both the IRT and BMT contracted out their maintenance to their own corporate subsidiaries. This was a means by which the operating arm could hide profits. This legerdemain made it more economical for these companies to keep existing equipment in good repair, as opposed to buying new rolling stock.
The IND and its successor state entities have had reverse incentives. Maintenance and repair came from operating funds, whereas new cars were off budget.
Yeah, but the deferred maintenance program of the 50's and 60's sapped the life out of many of them (like my unappreciated friend, the R16).
I totally agree. They could have been used as rush hour inserts on the J/Z and L, allowing the L line to increase it's service during rush hours. They could've also remained on the C line, since almost nobody uses that train if they can avoid it.
I know the TA doesn't have a lot of yard space for storage, but when they're gone, they're gone !
In 1975, the TA fleet was 6,674 cars. Today it's - what - about 5,900? There hasn't been a significant change in storage space between 1975 and today, has there? If there was enough room in 1975 for 700 more cars, why is there a "space shortage" today?
--Mark
Don't forget 8 75' cars occupy the same space as 10 60' cars.
-Hank
NYCT also used to do much more mainline storage than it does now. To prevent vandalism, yards were expanded, but not enough to support a gratly expanded fleet. Some yards have room for more cars, but others don't.
David
The fleet is down 5-10%, even allowing for the differences between car sizes. Moreover, this does not explain the decline in the number of IRT cars, whose dimensions have not changed.
It would appear that the yards were expanded to support a diminished fleet.
The Unionport IRT yard, on the other side of the E180th St yard was greaty expanded during it's rebuilding about 4-6 years ago. I rarely ever see it full, although I'm sure it's filled up pretty well at night with out-of-service #5 trains.
NO If anything the ta has cars to junk. If anyone would read the documents i mentioned you would see that the ta has hundreds of cars during rush hour just sitting there. In 1986 the transit authority had 4996 cars in rush hour service. Since then the need for rush hour service has fallen with service cutbacks.
Service has increased since 1986. If the TA has extra cars sitting around during the rush hours, they're doing a good job at hiding them.
increased? manhattan bridgs service is half " r" chambers street gone M has been cut back from coney island to bay pkway and this is just a partial list
And the M only goes to southern Brooklyn in rush hours. Midday service was cut back from 9th Avenue to Chambers Street. What's next, no M to southern Brooklyn at all?
i really think the m should run on rush hours to 95 street brooklyn and during regular hours run to bay parkway on the west end line .
good idea
To be honest, the M line is a waste of capacity south of Broad St. and only rush hour service can really be justified.
Yes, this can be labeled a service "cut". But there have been far more service increases than cuts over the past 13 years.
Services today that didn't exist in 1986:
The Archer Ave. line, with a new Z route
The expansion of Fulton St express service from rush hour only to every day service
The 63rd. St line
B service on CPW from rush hour only to all weekday service
extension of the 6 line to Brooklyn Bridge 24 hours/7 days
50% increase in #1 service above 137th St. (where half the trains terminated) during the mid-day hours
expansion on Broadway service via Queens Blvd. from the weekdays only N to the all times but nights R
Q service increased from rush hour service only to full service on weekdays
Shall I go on?
Also, the Manhattan Bridge changes cause routes to be longer and slower. More cars would be needed.
91584
Chris the official purpose of transit is to move passengers even though the real purpose is to steal money There is a tremendous difference in the amount of rolling stock needed throughout the day with morning rush being the busiest and midnight being the slowest. As a rsult during morning rush they need every piece of rolling stock that can be put into service. The only exceptions being cars out of service for repairs or inspections. Since conductor steinbach and his compensation case the amount of cars neding repairs has become virtually nil (when was last time your train went out of service) As a result of service demands changing throughtout the day it is not difficult to put more trains on the 6 line during midnight hours when transit simply doesnt have to lay up trains. The question is what about rush hour in the morning? I will however admit i was wrong about transit not adding service at all. The majority of examples you mention are non rush hour examples. i will however discuss rush hour service additions
Archer ave z service. true there is another letter added to list of lines but has headway changed?
the 63 street line is new and does operate during rush hours but it was planned and built long before 1986. If transit had not opened it they would of lost a lot of more money from the feds than they would save by not opening it
someone mentioned that they need more cars for manhattan bridge since trains take longer. true but they also cut some lines like the r to chambers street to make room for extra service.
If you remember the whole reason we got onto this subject was because you said they junked too many cars and need them for service. They do not need more cars for mid day service They just could stop laying them up. See your message 91584. again I was wrong about them not adding service and i am sorry
You're new here, yet you're bent on alienating everyone else who posts here. Tone it down.
You stated more cars were needed so transit could increase service. I then stated transit doesnt add service they just cut service. You correctly pointed out that transit has added service. I was wrong. I admit it however I still dont see any real need for new cars. In spite of transit saying lexington ave overcrowded they still are not at total capacity like the 7 line. Before i retired any block on the 7 line caused trains to be dropped This was not the case on any other line. While the other lines such as queens blvd and lexington have more passengers they do not or at least did not have full capacity yet the yards had over 1000 (one thousand ) cars in the yards during rush hour. Things may have changed but that was the case when I was there
I am not trying to antagonize you or any other poster except for the ones that criticize my statements and dont have the decency to make a local phone call to check out my statements
Mr. Johnson:
I have no interest in participating in your weird attempt to get attention. Please refrain from responding to my posts, and I will do the same with yours.
The argument about the lex line seems to be garbage. They run such tight headways on that line that you couldn't utilize more cars.
As for scrapping cars too quickly, it's a double edge sword. With the arrival of the 600 R-32s, it worked out. Witht the -44s, R-46s and R-68s it didn't. The logistics get complicated. For example, the R-142s will go first to Pelham (#6 line) E. 180th St (#5 line) and 239th St. (#2 line). Let's say that each of those shops retains 100 old cars (10 train-sets) for back-up. While inspecting the new cars every 10,000 miles, the old cars need to be inspected every 66 days if they do not run and 10,000 miles if they do (which ever comes first). Also, those cars will need to be stored somewhere. Since the 'B' Division yards are larger, look for them to be stored at Concourse, Jamaica, Coney Island or 36th Street. Finally, in the store-rooms, all new cars mean all new parts. If the old cars are scrapped, then you need not maintain a parts inventory. However if you need to repair them, you need parts and space to store them.
The argument about the lex line seems to be garbage. They run such tight headways on that line that you couldn't utilize more cars.
Not only can the theoretically run significantly more trains on the Lex BUT they used to.
Today (2000) the number is 24 tph.
They (1953-1960) used to run 30 tph.
todays habits by the passengers of holding doors increase dwell time number one. I'm sure during the fifties bicycles weren't allowed during rush hours nor were OPEN baby carriages or large parcels. I see people with bicycles and baby carriages with the children still in them DURING RUSH HOUR give me a break. Also Platform Conductor's located at key locations and more of them would help to decrease station dwell times. I was on the s/b platform at Grand central and counted between 8-9am only 24 trains on the express track.
Rule 33A still prohibits bicycles on trains. The ONLY exception that I know of is on the N/R line between 5th Avenue and either Queens Plaza (R) or Queensboro Plaza (N). Thanks to Ruth Messenger we have rule 33B which says that open baby carraiges may be brought on trains as long as they do not block the way of others. Neither is ever enforced.
QUESTION/COMMENT: I have seen a Transit issued brochure stating bikes may be brought on trains and suggested the "lettered routes" instead of the " numbered routes". That same brochure advises of no bike riding on platforms and to ask the station agent to open the gate before paying their fare.
If this is true doesnt that mean that they themselves are violating the rule
I'd like to see the brochures. I have the current rulebook in front of me. Rule 33a states in part:
Employees must not knowingly permit large articles and equipment such as bicycles etc. as are likely to inconvenience passengers to be carried into stations or on trains or buses...... Nowhere does it excuse the lettered lines from the rule.
[re bicycles on trains]
[I'd like to see the brochures. I have the current rulebook in front of me. Rule 33a states in part: Employees must not knowingly permit large articles and equipment such as bicycles etc. as are likely to
inconvenience passengers to be carried into stations or on trains or buses...... Nowhere does it excuse the lettered lines from the rule.]
I don't read Rule 33a as a flat prohibition on bicycles. Instead, it seems to give TA personnel (presumably station agents and conductors) the discretion to prohibit bicycles when their presence is likely to inconvenience other riders, such as during rush hour.
I don't know how you read that into what I copied from the rulebook. The words "MUST NOT KNOWINGLY PERMIT" seems pretty clear to me.
It says as are likely to inconvenience passengers. The employee could determine that crowding isn't at levels sufficient to cause inconvenience.
There is some ambiguity in Rule 33a: "Employees must not knowingly permit large articles and equipment such as bicycles etc. as are likely to inconvenience passengers to be carried into stations or on trains or buses......". It calls for employees to exercise their judgment as to whether a bicycle (or other large object) is likely to cause inconvenience. If the TA meant to ban bicycles completely, it could have written a clear, non-ambiguous rule to that effect.
Uh, is it even a sentence?
I have the brochure inm front of mwe. It is a tri-fold 8 1/2" x 11" asideways with the MTA PacMan Logo. it is entitled:
Bicycle Safety in the Subway
The brochure lists 8 safety tips
1`- Try not to use the subvway during rush hours
2- enetr and exit through sation service gates. It shows a picture of a HEET and a warning not to use them with a bike.
3- Board after passengers exit
and so on
7- Follow instructions from New York Cioty Police, Station and Train personnel.
it gives "Two rules" for the public
1- Section 1050.9(g) of the NYC public code mentionms not allowed to extend outside of the car or constitutes a hazzard
2- Section 1050.7(k) disallows riding a bike, skateboard, roller skates, roller blades, etc.
It was printed 4-98
item #0398029
22-30-0522
I think the key is the term "Employee". I interpret to mean that I a transit employee, am prohibited from bringing a bike into the system, but a non-employee, like our webmaster could bring a bike into the system.
I have not brought a bike into the system and will comply with the rules.(I do hold a valid NJT permit, and PATH allows bikes during non-rush hours.) If I ever need to bike in the city I can cover the city from PATH at WTC or 33rd.
Daily Passenger Count on Lex
1960 - 715,000 - (1.0)
1996 - 679,000 - (0.95)
Number of peak hour trains on Lex
1960 - 30 - (1.0)
1996 - 24 - (0.8)
Relative passenger activity per train
1960 - 1.0/1.0 - 1.0
1996 - 0.95/0.8 - 1.19
This means that the trains are 19% more crowded; the platforms are 19% more crowded and 19% more people are getting into and out of the trains at each station. This is the reason for the increase in dwell time. And you may also recall that the trains were not exactly empty in 1960.
N.B. I did not have the peak hour figures for both years. I used the daily passenger count. I assumed that the ratio of peak hour to daily total did not vary between 1960 and 1996. From all indications, there was a higher peak to daily count ratio in 1996 than in 1960. This would suggest that crowding increased by more than the 19% calculated above.
todays habits by the passengers of holding doors increase dwell time number one.
I suggest that if MTA/NYCT want to look for a scapegoat that they remember the words of Pogo: "we have met the enemy and he is us."
Yes - just consider the R27's and R30's.
And the Triplexes. In their case, the answer would have to be an emphatic yes.
Having a look at the latest schedules, the Lex express operates at about 26tph in the 8 to 9.00 am period confirmed recently by a subtalker. The big question is whether its due to car shortage, station stops too long (due to a variety of causes), or what the traffic will bear or put up with.
I think the busiest single line in NY is the Queens Boulevarde E/F express lines with 30tph for 90 minutes morning AND evening. Most other line appear to carry about 24-26tph (some approaching 15tph for the heaviest half hour of the rush). A recent check on the E/F showed they maintained that headway so if they can, why not the LEX?
What then, is the real reason for overcrowding?
More doors, longer trains, shorter dwell times, fewer curves, no gap fillers.
That's why the Queens IND can run 30tph.
-Hank
Practically all lines ran 30 or more tph in 1950's. The BMT with fewer doors, and the IRT with the same number of doors. Track geometry is essentially the same. 30 tph was not limited to the Queens IND.
BTW Queens IND runs only 27 tph on E/F today.
Back then, trains were shorter, and crews weren't hampered by all these "no-key by" red lights allowing for trains to run much closer together. The primary reason for the lower number of trains per hour today is the relativley newer safety precautions. Besides the no-key by rules, the lower acceleration of most of todays cars as compared to the 1950's also contributes to the lower capacity.
trains were shorter
Most were the same size. My sources also show cars/hour, so I'll accept challenges on this score. There are two exceptions: the Flushing line ran 9-car trains; the E/F ran 11-car trains.
crews weren't hampered by all these "no-key by" red lights allowing for trains to run much closer together.
That's a myth. They were able to run higher capacity without keying by.
the lower acceleration of most of todays cars as compared to the 1950's also contributes to the lower capacity.
Most of the trains were LV, A/B or R1/9. None was particularly noted its pep compared to the Bluebird or a Multi. You are right in your thinking that increased acceleration would help in providing more tph. It is indeed a tribute to MTA/NYCT management that they have resisted improved acceleration performance, even to the level of similar systems in other cities, in their new rolling stock specification. I'm sure that everyone will be delighted that they will perform up to 1910 performance levels.
with tha amount of derailments and subway accidents the TA has had, many of the fleet were so badly damaged that they can't be fixed. some cars cause more problems than solutions. the TA didn't take good care of their cars before the 1980's causing quick scrapping.
What the hell are you rambling about...?
Most BMT trains were shorter before 1967. Maximum length was 536', but many lines ran even shorter trains than that. The E and F lines only ran 11 car trains for about 4 years in the 1950's, IIRC.
However, length shouldn't be an issue on the Lexington IRT, as it's been running 10 car trains since the late 50's.
Most BMT trains were shorter before 1967. Maximum length was 536',
Length isn't everything. An 8-car A/B had seats for 600. A train of triplexes had seats for 640. Contrast this with: 10-car train of R1-R16's had seats for 560. Later models 60 footers had seats for only 460. An 8-car R44-R68 has 566. There has been no increase in usable standing room despite the seat reduction.
has the TA been too quick to get rid of old cars in the recent past, or has it just been underfunded, so the new cars could not come in fast enough to replace cars that just had to go?
Some argue that the scrapping of the R-30s was premature. Same for the D-Types, which were in better shape than the R-1/9s in the mid-60s.
However, the TA lagged on getting rid of the R-16s. Good thing, too, because when the R-46 crack fiasco got out of hand, 100 R-16s were removed from mothballs and returned to service. (Isn't THAT ironic?)
--Mark
Actually, the R16's life was cut short due to it's awful mechanical problems. Almost all cars see at least 35 years of service. Had the R16 been in better shape (and had more existed), it would've been the R10 to go in 1987, and the R16 surviving until the last R68 was delivered.
At least 100 R30 cars should've been kept in storage just like those R16's were. They'd come in handy right now.
The Triplexes were retired way, way too soon. From what I've heard, they could have easily kept right on going for another ten years at the very least. They would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance. Had they been used only for rush hour service (and they were during their final years), who knows how long they would have lasted.
Putting the R-16s out of their misery is one thing. Sending the Triplexes to slaughter when they were still in tip-top shape is another.
Well, thanks for all the responses on that subject! If you want to generate traffic here, bring up car (ie Redbird) scrapping...
So here's my next question: should the MTA be investing in more yards? That would get rid of the space problem. Then, there would be rainy day equipment available. If it was just for rainy day stuff, the yards - at least in theory - would not even have to be in the city. But would investments in train capacity, just to increase the passenger capacity of the system, be worthwhile? Assume for a second that money will be available in the future to either keep more trains around as the new ones arrive or buy even more new ones. What lines need more trains as opposed to more tracks or less door holding?
Steve - you say that a train not in use needs to be inspected every 66 days. Is this true if it is not being used at all? Or just if it is being used infrequently, so that it will go a long time between 10,000 mile inspections. I don't doubt that the calculation of whether to keep a car is complex. Could a system be designed for keeping less heavily used or mothballed cars around for less $$$ ?
Of course, if you want to build yards, you need a place to build them. That seems like a toughie.
How could there be a shortage of yard space, when there are fewer cars than 20 years ago? Does this mean if the TA wanted to expand its fleet through new purchases it would have to add yard space?
The cost for new cars does not limited to the purchase price. There is the cost of new maintenance equipment, spare parts, personnel training, etc.,etc. Sometimes, entire new repair facilities have to be built. The true cost for a new model car may be many times its purchase price.
You'd have to figure the cost of the E180th St. yard re-construction into the total R142 price, as well as the ENY yard's re-construction in the R143's total price. Not to mention the thousands of man-hours that will be needed to train workers to operate and fix their new, complicated systems.
There was a thread on the board a couple of months ago that the MTA planned to build a new small yard in Sunnyside, with connections to the new 63rd St. line as well as the Flushing line, though I haven't heard anything more about it.
Everybody has their dibs on the Sunnyside real estate. The property is too valuable for using as a rail yard. Supposedly, difficulty in fighting a yard fire makes it unlikely that the air rights could be used. The question is how would the proceeds from a sale to a commercial developer be split.
Could someone elaborate on this TA property in Sunnyside...
And since when is property in Sunnyside so valuable?
The property is the railroad yards that stretch from the East River almost to Woodside. It consists of LIRR and AMTRAK yards. None of it is TA property.
The property is valuable for the same reason that the former NY Central West Side yards were valuable. It is a large tract of undeveloped real estate that is extremely close to the City.
The large Sunnyside interlocking is owned by Amtrak (I think), thuse attaining it for the city for the construction of a new storage yard whouldn't be too difficult (no NIMBY concerns).
There are several different yards. Part of the complex was used exclusively for LIRR freight operations and is not part of the Sunnyside interlocking. Establishing ownership should be interesting. Which parts were included as part of the state purchase of the LIRR from the PRR? What about real estate taxes for NYC, if the properties revert to non-railroad use?
Regardless of ownership, any use changes will probably have to go through the normal land use procedures. However, practically all the yard is surrounded by industrial zoning.
The 2 ideal spots for new yards would be at the end of the IRT Nostrand Ave. line, and one at the end of the 4th Ave. line in Bay Ridge. Unfortunatly, there probably isn't enough land in these locations to build them there, and NIMNY'ism would limit any new yards to already industrialized areas, thus the "Sunnyside" plan.
There does seem to be a lot of open land out in Rockaway, though.
(Rockaway land availability) Yes, but you'd expose the cars to corrosion from the salt air. Even Coney Island yard has that problem to a lesser degree.
--Mark
Actually, there is a plan to extend the Nostrand Avenue Line a few feet southward, then curve it eastward to join the Bay Ridge Branch. A new yard (holding 6 trains, IIRC) would be constructed there.
Don't ask me what happens to the new elevator from the street to the platform level at the Flatbush Avenue station :-)
David
You could build a new, island platform at Flatbush Ave, which is better suited for a terminal station underneath the present one, and convert the present trackway/platform to a mezzanine. Of course, that'd cost a lot of $$$
I'm not sure that would be buildable. It would probably require a heavy grade to reach the (new) lower level. Besides, there's a water table problem in the area because the Flatbush Water Works was nearby, and when it quit the water table rose. That's the reason the tracks were up on blocks between Flatbush Avenue and Newkirk Avenue (with the resulting slow speed order) for many years.
David
Don't ask me what happens to the new elevator from the street to the platform level at the Flatbush Avenue station :-)
This isn't the first time that NYCT has used a station "improvement" to block possible expansion. The Main St. "improvement" was so important that they did not want to try for 80% federal funding.
NIMNY
Not in my New York?
What are your favorite cars?
I like the Brightliners. They start up slow but they can sure fly.
The Slant R-40s on the Brighton seem to be a little slow. They use to pretty quick. Think its due to construction or something like that.
The R-68 are the ones I can't stand. They are slow as hell but offer a good ride. Have anyone been on the R110s or the test R-143s?
The Title says it!, I grew up with it, I grew up on the line...they were the first things I saw when I moved here.
The Triplex, and Standards, and Lo Volts, Now, The Slants, and the R33 World Fare Cars. I don t like any of the cars that have all long seating on Div B
I'm sure I'll get flack on this one, but I remember the R-11's in their last days from my childhood. It was these cars that probably contributed to turning me into a subway fan.
I like the Lo-V cars. If I have to pick from the current fleet I would pick the R44/46 (from a **rider's viewpoint they are close enough to be copnsidered as fraternal twins) followed by the R62/62A and the slants and yes the R68/68A
ok get MAD again !!! as long as it has a RAILFAN-FRONT-WINDOW ...... cant be all bad !!!
the lo-v cars have a rail fan window!
Of those with railfan windows (R26, R28, R29, R32, R33WF, R36, R36ML, R38, R40, R40M, R42, R62A Lenox, all PATH classes), which is your favourite?
Wayne
For speed it's the R-62 and R-40 Slants. I think the R-46 are the best looking cars.
Wayne
Ever ride a post GOH R42 in an area where they can actually get up to full speed? They're as fast, if not faster then the slant R40's, and the ride is much more comfortabe, lacking those awful R40 seats. The R42's speed is completely wasted on the insanly-meandering Eastern division. I caught one temporarily on the Q last summer. Wow!
I've ridden them plenty of times on the D and they were fast, but I don't think they'd outrun the SlantR-40.
Wayne
No they wouldn't. However, on the "N" last June 4th, R42 #4935 made a respectable showing for herself between 36th and Pacific. Right now, it seems that only the R38s can keep pace with the wickedly fast Slant R40s. A Division: R33s seem to be the fastest cars, oddly enough. The #2 really motors up the West Side.
Wayne
The #2 really motors up the West Side.
That's another one of my favorite runs. Problem is, I find it almost impossible to stay awake while riding the #2!
Part of it is no doubt caused by the fact that I'm usually visiting NYC on a weekend and I'm trying to squeeze in as much sightseeing, walking and railfanning during the short time I'm in town. #2 is usually the line I end up taking back to my friend's place on the Upper West Side where I'm usually crashing.
But I think another part of it is the run itself... The train picks up enough speed, and with that rythmic sound of the wheels against the tracks and the train begins to develop a steady rocking motion...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...............
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Yeah, IRT trains, I love 'em.
I used to have the same problem coming back from Yankee night games on the No. 4. ZZZZZZ until Grand Central and then a switch to the 6.
For me nothing finer then a 2 or 3 on Broadway, although the Slants on the Brighton line come very close.
Mr t__:^)
I notice that no one has mentioned the BU's or gate cars as I prefer to call them. I suppose because that was so long ago, and most of you are too young to remember them in passenger service.
I know they would never outrun an R-10, and they would probably be reduced to splinters in the famous crash test with a Triplex but they were a lot of fun to ride, winter or summer. They were never plagued with any kind of door jams. Resumption of the trip depended on the strength in the gateman's arms, and two tugs on the bell cord!
The closest I've ever ridden on the gate cars were the "Q" cars on Myrtle Av and although I did love riding on 'em they weren't my favorite. My all time favorites had to be the IND Standards-the R1-9's with the BMT Standards second.
The best part of riding the gate cars was standing on the platform between cars, while moving between stations. I guess I sort of hated the "C" and "Q" cars, because to me, they had lost their original identity.
I could just imagine gate cars running today, with today's youths having a field day throwing, spitting and doing god knows what else from those open gates at the end of each car. I doubt these cars could even be labeled as safe to run today.
You're right! They would probably do things like unscrew the incandescent light bulbs and be dropping them on people in the street. People would more than likely have to be prohibited from riding on the platforms if the cars were still in service today. A six car train required a crew of six in the old days, the MTA could never tolerate all of those wages at today's rates.
Karl, that's one of the reasons I'm one of the extremely small minority of subtalkers who hate to see the old 1955 (former MU) coaches on the LIRR diesels go. Although the platforms aren't open like the gate cars, they are fun to ride on nonetheless. I already miss riding on the open platform on the rear car before they started putting locos on both ends. It was great standing at the chain. Now there will be no platforms on ANY LIRR car.
Jeff, I always enjoyed platform riding. I had the opportunity on the Lackawanna electric cars, riding out of Hoboken to my aunts home in New Jersey. I did also got to ride the platform on the PRR's Broadway Limited on several occasions. Would you believe that in the twenty-plus years that I lived in Brooklyn, I never had the opportunity to ride the LIRR. I did get to ride it once about 25 years ago, when I came back to the city to visit family. It was a one time trip from Penn Station to Jamaica. At the time it seemed to be a short trip, with only one stop, at Woodside.
The platforms on the 1955 LIRR cars are the best place to ride them - you can't smell the car interiors out there. The best way to describe those decrepit coaches is: P.U..
Wayne (no fan of the 1955 MP-75s, as you can probably tell)
there is a bunch laidup at Belmont Raceway, waiting the scraper, I guess.
Never rode them in revenue service (came to NYC in early 60s), did catch a "Q" on the Myrtle Ave line before it came down. But Karl I know where you're comming from, i.e. enjoy riding on the back porch of the BU Gate car at Shoreline/Branford when she comes out twice a year. That one is in pritty good shape, cosmetically, and mechanically she rides smoothly down the line.
Mr t__:^)
It would be wonderful if Branford got 1349 in shape and coupled it to 1227. You could straddle the two cars and operate the gates the way they did on the el 50 years ago.
When I was a teenager I wanted to be a gateman in the worst way!
They are doing some work on several of their El/Gate cars. Reading their newsletter it's very interesting how many cars in the collection are getting a little tender loving care, e.g. this month was a report of some window calking on the Standard to help keep it restoreable.
P.S. I was just told that all the under seat heaters were fixed in the R-17 ... guess our December work day was valuable to them & they would like us to come back (as a matter of fact they have a specific job in mind).
Mr t__:^)
The BU's at Branford are a better representation of the original car than those in the Transit Museum. The Transit Museum cars ride on the wrong trucks, and have had their clerestory roofs cut down. I believe that the Transit Museum cars also have Subway couplers rather than the original Van Dorn type.
I heard a Q car once took on an SIRT trailer in Fresh Pond Yard, and WON!! Who whoulda thunk it?
I'd have to say that the only car which could have outrun an R-10 in its heyday would have had to be a multisectional.
Favorite Cars? Lets see;
Redbirds;R-33,R-29 and R-36 in the original red paint scheme.
Bluebirds; R-33 and R-36
Redbirds; R-33,R-29,R-36,R-26 and R-28 in the current paint scheme.
H&M/PRR Class K and MP-52, nice soft seats
The legendary Lo-V's.
R-11's,last of the BMT experimentals.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R42 is as fast as the R40. Trust me.
NOTHING can outrun a slant R-40 these days.
Define thing
Commuter rail trains certainly can for one.
Specifically, I'm referring exclusively to New York subway cars. Your observation is correct.
I say no matter what anyone says, Old is sometimes better than the new. If you ride an R-62 going uptown on the number 3 train, the R-62's speed doesn't compare to a Redbird posing as a northbound 2. Lets face it. In cases of old versus new, as far as Trains go, R29's are better than R62's, speed wise.
Yeah, but 20 years from now the R62's will be running well. The redbirds, OTOH, would all be reduced to a pile of rusty ashes.
My favorite are the Redbirds right now. But once they Disappear, I like the R-62's better. I really don't like the R-142's that much
You've never ridden them. Your prejudice is crap.
Brotha please The R-142's are Crappy. I think operating a train with the two handed method like on the R-62's is the best way to control a Subway Train. Anyway, whats with the computers?
CAN U SAY UNESSCESSARY???
First thing, I'm not your brother, I don't want to be related in any way to someone who's such a luddite.
Computers make things more efficient, you have the better suspension with the air bags, the clear AUDIBLE announcements, easy speed control, AC traction, CBTC (in the future), digital signs, and one handed control.
As for what's UNNECCESSARY (check your spelling before you dole out your stupidity), I'm sure you also believe that Air Conditioning, hell even lights are unneccessary.
Trains are unnecessary also. Lets go back to horses. There's nothing like a more personal ride on a living thing that is as loyal to you as your dog. Lets start a new BB called HorseTalk, or Straight from the Horse's Mouth.
Who even needs to have horses suffer carrying people on their backs? We should go back to walking. If the distance is too far, then the trip will take several days. We shouldn't have to work so far from our homes. A lot of jobs are unnecessary too.
01/29/2000
HORSETALK !!!
Wanna BET !
Bill Newkirk
It could open with, "Hello, I'm Mister Ed."
LOL
RIGHT ON PAUL ( HEYPAUL ) !! PAINT A LARGE """S ""' ON THE R 142s
unless you install a ......... GET MAD FOLKS !! ................................................. railfan-window !!................
What's wrong with looking through the door into the cab? It will be directly facing the storm door window and if it isn't covered, will provide a FULL RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!! effect.
01/29/2000
Mr.Willie,
You have PAUL mixed up with heypaul. Those are two different PAUL's. I guess they PAUL by comparison !
Bill Newkirk
The R-62 is lighter and newer. Your "observation" is nothing more than favoritism towards the Rustbirds.
That southbound 3 train I took last October got up to 47 mph at 50th St., and it kept right on going. It wasn't until we were halfway to Times Square that it slowed down. Having car #1969 leading the pack didn't hurt. That was a memorable year if you're a Mets fan.
It depends on a number of factors. A skilled motorman can get a train up to speed, line up GTs and knock 'em down one by one.
Speaking of the Mets, how many of you remember an outfielder by the name of Art Shamsky? He was a long ball hitter who couldn't run. An analogy would be: R-10 is to Tommie Agee as R-68 is to Art Shamsky.
No, Cecil Fielder is the R68. Lou Brock is the R10.
Actually I predicted the Mets would win the pennant that year long before it. I said the Mets would win the pennant the year man walks on the moon!!!
Then they should have won in 70, 71 AND 72 as well. Darn.
Hey Sarge: Since your such a clarvoyant, what about the Mets this year. Will fans riding on the #7 train be in the state of ecstacy or will they be riding home with another second place finish behind those miserable Braves?
The Braves are going to go chop chop! on everyone this year, including the World Series!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've heard that every year since 1991. It's pretty safe to assume that the Braves will have their championship aspirations unfulfilled yet again in 2000.
Only if John Rocker goes running through a Redbird with a machete.
If the Shea crowd doesn't do a hatchet, er, tomahawk, job on him first.
In 1970, the Mets got complacent. As Ron Swoboda put it, "It went to our heads. Some stars thought they were superstars, some fringe guys thought they were stars, nobody worked hard, nobody cared." Seaver went into a pitching slump over the last month and a half, winning only one game down the stretch. I remember agonizing every time they lost in 1970, expecting them to win 100 games again. When the Mets ran away from everyone else in 1986, I realized this was a once-in-a-lifetime year and just enjoyed it.
In 1971 and 1972, they got off to a fast start, only to do a fast fade. In '71, the bottom fell out in July. In '72, they got hit with injuries.
There was an interesting stat about Seaver in 1971, when he won 20 games. Had the Mets scored just four runs every time he pitched, he would have wound up 33-2.
But September and October 1973 was fun -- last to first in a month, a win over Sparky's boys (should have known somthing was wrong with Pete Rose when he tried to pull a Ray Fosse on Bud Harrelson), and then taking the A's to seven games in the series. That was still when most ofthe playoff games were afternoon affairs, so we were always trying to sneak radios into last period class.
Here Fred, Click here for my prediction!!!
Shamsky didn't hit that many home runs. True, he was never a full time player being platooned with Ron Swaboda. By the time they got Rusty in '72 (who couldn't run either) Shamsky was going, going, gone, goodby. I wouldn't use the analogy of an R-10 to Tommie Agee. Yeah he made some great catches in the '69 series against Baltimore, but he was no speedster either. (Why did a guy who led the team with 26 homeruns that year bat leadoff?)
I almost said Bud Harrelson instead of Agee, although he had knee surgery.
The Mets really didn't have any real sluggers back then; pitching was their forte. I still shake my head when looking at that 1969 championship team photo and seeing the likes of Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, and McGraw. I know, I know, Ryan didn't blossom until after he was traded, and that was by far the worst trade in Met history.
Probably the worst trade in all baseball history. (Babe Ruth being sold by the Red Sox was the worst sale in baseball history, from a Boston point of view). He don't forget Garry Gentry and of course the hall of famer Jim MacAndrew.
I like baseball, but this is not a baseball web site.
I rode R-42s extensively this past summer on the Q, and I had several opportunities to observe the speedometers. I can state objectively, and for the record, that the R-42s took longer to reach their top speed, and that the top speed reached wasn't as high as it is on the slant R-40s. In some cases, the train never broke 40 mph.
Of course, the R-42s in question are the Coney Island rebuilds :-)
David
BMT Compartment cars a/k/a 'Bluebirds'--plate glass windows, mohair seats, great railfan seats and windows, red tile flooring, mirrored panels to each side of the articulation joints. And a great PCC sound!
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Runners-up: BMT Standards and Triplexes
BMT-IND R-10 and R-11 (as originally delivered)
IRT R-15 (in original maroon and grey colors)
To the surprise of no one, it's the Triplex car that ran on the Sea Beach line in the late 40's and 50's. I grew up riding on that car and I thought it was a magnificent machine. I have seen no others that has captured my fancy as the Triplex and I doubt that I ever will.
because i am a modern kind of guy, i have a few favorites. the R62/62a that run on the lexington ave. express and local, the R46/46a that run on the IND lines and the soon to arrive R142/142a's. to my opinion, they all have a modern look and feel
oh yes we have. r32/32a
That is the car of your childhood, a time which everybody (except those with crappy childhoods) equates with happiness. Something representative of your childhood will always be recalled with fondness. No other car ever captured your fancy because you're not a kid anymore.
Low blow baby, but you're right. I'm 59 and not a kid anymore, but only on a technicality. Watch me at Disneyland and Knotts Berry Farm here in So. California and you'd never know I was a grown up. For that matter, when I rode the subways last summer, people looked at me with amusement (or was it astonishment) and must have wondered just how big a kid that was looking out of the front window of the train. And as far as the Cyclone was concerned, I was a card carrying teenager.
BMT Compartment cars a/k/a 'Bluebirds'--plate glass windows, mohair seats, great railfan seats and windows, red tile flooring, mirrored panels to each side of the articulation joints. And a great PCC sound!
It must have been something to actually ride those cars!!! I only met them in books, brochures, and newspaper clippings.
My favorite that I actually rode was always the D-Type Triplex with the BMT Standard a close second.
Of the new cars - I liked the Brightliners in their original color scheme with blue doors.
www.bmt-lines.com
My favorite car was the R10 for my choice of pre 1960's rolling stock.As for rolling stock it is tie between the r40 slant -not modified and thr r110B.I had the pleasure of riding this train alot on the A line and I thought it was a nice car.
Favorite car running today: R46
Favorite car I've ridden but has been retired: R16 (no laughing!)
Favorite car I never got to do anything in except sit in at the Transit museum: Tie, R1/9 and BMT B types
Most hated car of all time (still running): R68
Most hated car of all time (ridden, but now retired): R10 (sorry Mr. Padron, those R10's are an "acquired" taste)
My favoite for speed would be the R-33/36s, while looks would be the old R-33/36 WFs with their original blue-and-white design.
For just comfort, I'd go with the R-46s right now (It's hard to really be comfortable in an R-68 when you see how slow its going along CPW), with an honorable historical mention to the first series of Slant-40s that had air conditioning. They still had those same crappy seats, but in the summer of 1968 you'd endure the bad seats for the cold air.
Riding home on the "F" in 1973 and 1974, I saw mixed bags of Slants. The R40AC were mixed in with the regular (and unbearably hot) R40s. Guess which cars were the most crowded? Those wearing numbers 4350-4449, of course. They had VERY COLD A/C. All Slant R40 today are air-conditioned, of course, and only the Stone-Cold R32s have better cooling.
Wayne
My handle sez it all (I like R38s too).
Wayne ./MrSlantR40\.
R-32s and R-1/9s.
--Mark
R-32 and the Triplex.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Current fleet:
1. Red Bird (I'm not fussy so any of the IRT Rs are just as good)
2. Slant 40
3. (tie) R32/R-38
Least liked = R-68 Hippo
Next lease = R-46 Rino (If she had a Rail Fan Window I might like her)
Retired fleet:
1. R-9 (this one in series because she still runs at Branford, and I have fond memories of taking her to college)
2. (three way tie) Lo-V/Hi-V/Standard, the Lo-V/Hi-V because I can catch them at Branford, the Standard because I wish one was operating.
3. Red Bird R-17, she's lible to be #1 when they're no longer part of the "current fleet"
Trolley (hay the question said favorite "car"):
1. PCC (here again I've had the pleasure of riding them in revenue service in Boston & Newark ... those are grand memorys, thanks to Sid and Peggy from NJ for letting me tag along)
2. (well I don't have one, but as I continue to hang around that museum up North they are all starting to grow on me)
Mr t__:^)
All time favorites: tossup between those venerable R-1/9s with their glorious cacaphony of sounds and those alltime champions of my favorite route, the A, the R-10s. William Padron and I think alike.
Current equipment: 3-way tie between the Redbirds, R-32s, and slant R-40s. I still miss the blue doors on the R-32s and the good old bulkhead roller curtains. Honrable mention goes to the R-62s.
Least favorite equipment: BMT standards when they were still around. I just didn't like them. No end signs and ugly. I'm singing a different tune about them now. Of the current fleet, it's got to be the R-44s and R-68s. They should be assigned to local-only routes. Express runs on them are about as exciting as watching paint dry.
Favorite: R-46
2nd Favorite: R-68
3rd Favorite: R-32
4th Favorite: R-62
Least Favorite: R-33 single (what did you think?)
Favorite car seen, never ridden: Triplex or R-11
Favorite car I have no chance in hell of ever seeing: Bluebird
Here's a pic of the BMT Bluebird in all it's former glory.
Correction:
Here's a picture of the Bluebird in all it's former glory.
Favorite cars in Chicago:
I'd call it a toss-up between the 2200's and the new 3200's. The fluted siding gives them a nice clean, modern look that can't be matched by any other other cars in the CTA system. The 2200's are nice because all the seats are transverse (I hate sitting sideways) and the blinker doors are sorta cool. The 3200's tend to be very comfortable with a nice smooth ride.
Favorite cars in New York that I've ridden:
In terms of aesthetics and comfort, I'd have to go with the despised R-68's, especially the ones with the electronic destination signs.
The R-40 seems to be the winner in terms of speed, but I haven't had a chance to actually ride one of those yet. Riding some slants on a good express run is high on my agenda for my next visit to the city. Where would be the best place to do this?
Favorite cars in New York that I haven't ridden: The R-110B's. I've never seen one in person, but they look nice in the photos.
Favorite commuter rail cars: The rebuilt cars on the Metra Electric line in Chicago.
I think my "ideal" subway cars in terms of comfort and appearance would look a lot like the R-110B's, with the following exceptions: The addition of the fluted stainless steel siding and a black band along the side windows similar to the Washington Metro or Atlanta's MARTA trains, and the trains would be composed of articulated 5-car sets. Give it the propulsion system of an R-40, and I think we'd have ourselves a pretty kick-ass subway train.
Never hurts to dream a little...
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
The R-68 (my second favorite car), doesn't have electronic signs. You must be thinking of the R-46 (my favorite) or the R-44.
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The slant R-40s are assigned mostly to the Q, which runs on weekdays only. Now, THAT'S a good express run! They are also used on the L and N lines, and occasionally make token appearances on the B.
I couldn't resist!:)
My favorite cars in Chicago would have to be the 2000s. They were quieter in the State St. subway than anything else, and that includes the 6000s and 2600s. I wish I could have ridden on the 4000s, although I do remember seeing them on the Evanston Express.
Complete sets of ERA Headlights in mint condition are being offered on eBay. The closing date is January 25:
1975: No reserve, minimum bid applies. ERA Headlights for the year 1975. Monthly publication of Electric Railroaders' Association, glossy stock, many photos, some months combined. Traction history for mostly 1975, primarily from USA, Canada and Mexico, with some international content. September-November issue contains large story, with many photos, on the history of the BMT's Brooklyn rapid transit lines. Condition A+. eBay Item #241013682.
1976: No reserve, minimum bid applies. ERA Headlights for year 1976. Monthly publication of Electric Railroaders' Association, glossy stock, many photos, some months combined. Traction history for mostly 1976, primarily from USA, Canada and Mexico, with some international content. Condition A+. eBay Item #241008592.
01/24/2000
I heard that the R-68 unitizing program is just about done. What pray tell is in store for Coney Island shops for the next program. I heard the second GOH of the R-32's. Is that true?
Bill Newkirk
R-32 Phase Is need to be around for another 12 to 15 years so there's one program. Also R-32, 40, 42 and 68 floors are to be replaced over the next 5 years. I think that the overhaul shops will be moderately busy over the next few years.
if they are rebuilding the R68's Hallelujah!(did i spell it right?) they feel so old! vandalism did their interiors in from what i have seen.
Unitizing? What's that?
Linking the cars into four-car units except for the ones used on the Franklin Shuttle.
ahhh. Never heard that word used to describe that action.
Well, you can't call a four-car set a married pair.
Perhaps they could if the BMT ran to Utah ...
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's worth a double rim shot!!
01/27/2000
"Well you can't call a four car set a married pair"
Well than call them BOB,CAROL,TED and ALICE !
(That's a title of a early 70's movie dealing with wife swapping)
Bill Newkirk
Anyone know what happened to NYC Transit, the poster with the BMT Standard GIF? He hasn't been on for a couple of days.
He may have been driven away by the ridiculous in-fighting that prevailed last week. He'll be back.
01/24/2000
Yesterday I rode the Franklin Shuttle to check on things. This is what I observed.
1) Leaving Prospect Park, graffitti is returning to the painted concrete retaining walls.
2) Windows are starting to be scratched again.
3) At Franklin Ave. on the corridor to the elevators, some minor graffitti is on painted columns, stained glass seems OK.
4) Police presence that was seen on the line the day of reopening till a short time later has vanished.
I guess the big brou hah is over and everything is returning to normal just like the rest of the system.
BTW-When traveling up the Brighton to prospect Park, two car set of R-68's dedicated to the shuttle was entering Bright Beach middle about 12:45PM.
Bill Newkirk
Bastards...They ask for a new line, and we get more of this crap? Hang those Graffiti artists by the balls!
Did you expect the line to be grafitti free?
By the way Bill, while talking about grafitti, I was leafing through your calendar and noticed some grafitti on September's R-16 on the Myrtle Av el. The caption said 1964. Although we usually associate the 70's with subway grafitti I guess there was always some grafitti on the subway system!!
As Simon and Garfunkle sang:
"...and the words of the prophets are written on the subway wall..."
"As Simon and Garfunkle sang:
"...and the words of the prophets are written on the subway wall..." "
Vandals are prophets? Well, what else could you expect from the guy who wrote "Capeman", the musical that glorifies the murderer of the same name?
I seem to remember graffiti earlier than the 70's. Of course back then it was nothing like epidemic of the 70's. Maybe the reason for the 70's outburst was the lax attitude toward crime combined with media glorification of criminals.
Alan Glick
When "The Sounds of Silence" first came out (1966) many of the advertising posters in subway stations had been bought up by a group which used them to display various quotations from the Bible. The reference to the "words of the prophets" being on subway walls initially made me think of those posters, not of graffiti. But I must admit that the next line "...and tenement halls" suggests that graffiti is indeed what was intended. Anyway, according to the song, it is the neon sign the people are bowing to (generally considered a reference to the power of advertising) which makes the statement that
"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
and tenement halls
and whisper in the sounds of silence."
Since the song as a whole is criticizing the power of the "neon sign", it can also be seen as criticizing the assertion that the words of the prophets are on the subway walls.
Good points. I wasn't that familiar with the song so I was just reacting to the quoted portion. Of course The Capeman episode alone is enough to earn him my disrespect.
Alan Glick
[When "The Sounds of Silence" first came out (1966) many of the advertising posters in subway stations had been bought up by a group which used them to display various quotations from the Bible. The reference to the "words of the prophets" being on subway walls initially made me think of those posters, not of graffiti. But I must admit that the next line "...and tenement halls" suggests that graffiti is indeed what was intended.]
Interpreting song lyrics is a notoriously difficult task. Case in point: after nearly 30 years, there's still no agreement on what "American Pie" is about. At any rate, given the fact that "The Sounds of Silence" pre-dates the graffiti epidemic by five or more years, I don't necessarily see the lyrics as some sort of homage to graffiti. Simon might have meant that knowledge can be found in the most unlikely of places. And few places, after all, are more unlikely than subway walls and tenement halls.
Question: could Simon have been referring to London subways, that is underground pedestrian passages?
'American Pie' was the name of the plane that Buddy Holly and Richie Vallens met their fates in. The song was an ode to them.
Doug aka BMTman
I thought Don McLean himself stated "American Pie" was a memorial to Buddy Holly.
I thought Don McLean himself stated "American Pie" was a memorial to Buddy Holley.
Yes he did, which refuted my eighth grade history teacher who was a Ford Foundation refugee and a crypto-Marxist. When the song came out he said it was about JFK's assassination and tried to find all sorts of hidden anti-American messages in it.
Of course, it was 1971, and that kind of thinking was big back then.
IIRC, someone was arrested for defacing a subway car on 10/27/04 on the original IRT line. So it's not something that was "invented" in the late 60's.
There was graffiti on the Independent when it first opened in 1932; this after it's tile walls were supposed to be "finished" with a more graffiti-proof material.
--Mark
01/24/2000
While waiting for a Ronkonkoma train at Jamaica, I decided to check out the 6:29PM Patchogue train and use the bathroom! The mirror in the bathroom was scratched. Yet, the wash sink still had running water. How long will it be until the LIRR gets the idea to pull the sinks and substitute those disposable towelettes like they have on the electrics.
One glass covering the LED destination sign was damaged by a ballast rock most likely. The floors were still damp, showing the cars were mopped before entering the station. This will probably cease a couple of years from now when the novelty wears off and the railroad will slack off on them. Check out the floors on the electrics with all that ice melt tracked in from the outside. Enough to give Felix Ungar a heart attack!
BTW-The modified DE's and DM's with the new horn arrangement is showing up. The modified ones have them above the front windshield blocking the number on top. With this horn cluster it looks more like a diesel should look. The modification will make the horn intensity at the engineers control. The old way was press a button and the horn had one loud blast with a slight delay. Now the engineer can regulate the sound. This due to area complaints. Two days ago I was in Mineola a couple of blocks from the R.O.W. and the unmodified horn is indeed louder than the old type diesels.
Bill Newkirk
Eye didn't know that the dual modes had started comming into Penn. On Friday I saw 510/513 getting passengers for a 5:10 to Speonk.
That's nice for folks that used to have to take the #7 to Hunters Point or otherwise make their way to Jamaica.
Mr t__:^)
I knew they were repositioning the horns but I didn't thing they were changing them so the engineer can modulate them. That would be great. I was once standing with my 3yr old Arthur under the Mineola Av overpass right next to a new bi-level loco when it just started moving. The engineer blew the horn when it was also under the overpass and the sound was horrific. Like being next to a volunteer firehouse when the horns went off. In the summer I made a video of the Arthur at the Main St crossing (opposite Nassau Tower) during the PM Rush with numerous trains going by. (I only had the cam on when the gates were down) While watching the video the new locos were by far the loudest. Even the slow moving O.B. trains going around the curve. However, when the trains are going W/B and the engineer is driving from the cab in the front passenger car it was much lower.
When the LIRR's new locos came from the factory, they had a push-button on the dashboard for the horns. When the engineer pushed the button, it activated an air valve right under the horn, and it was either fully open or fully closed.
The units that have been modified have had piping run from the back of the unit where the horns were, into the cab, where a pull-handle valve (like the GP38-2's have) is installed, and then the pipe goes up to the new horn location.
We had the same situation out west with Metrolink in the Los Angeles area....the locos had the same sort of push-button setup. Instead of doing what the LIRR is doing, Metrolink disconnected the K5H horns on the loco roofs, and ran a pipe down to the front pilot, and mounted -- get this -- a trolley car whistle down there!!!!!!
Of course, the engineers did not feel this was safe; you cold hardly hear the whistles. So, Metrolink went one step further and mounted two-note air horns down there (various two-chime horns were used). But the original horns are still on the loco roofs!
The cab cars actually had a ROPE (like older diesels) to sound the K5H horns on them; they were just plugged off, and the push-buttons installed with a pipe down to the trolley car whistle. As the whistles on the locos got changed, so did the ones on the cab cars. Only one cab car still has the five-chime horn on the roof working for some strange reason.
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Driving into JFK last night I saw a sign heralding the 'skytrain'. This was just as I entered the airport from the VanWyck. I laughed when I saw the sign because I said to myself that it was still some jerk's pipe-dream. Then I parked at terminal #8 and was completely taken by suprise. The work is well under way with massive support columns and guideways going up everywhere. Of course it was dark but it seems that some daylight scouting is definitely in order. One thing is for sure. At least the airport part of the project will be built...
I was at JFK a few weeks ago and was also surprised by the construction to date. I'm actually going to volunteer to drive my friends aunt to JFK Saturday, so I'll take a look during daylight then.
On the other hand, I always laugh a bit to myself when I see the "AirTrain" storefront office on Archer Avenue just east of the LIRR. It always has the steel grating pulled down in front of it. Someday when I miss my connection (and it isn't under 20 degrees), I'll have to take a walk down there and see what it's all about.
Chuck
What that is likely all about is that's a no-show job given to the wife or Brother of some local politico for keeping his constituents under control. New York Politics at its finest...
I have a Noon flight in early Feb, I might go to JFK early and take the bus around the terminals to see the work being done.
OK the rams left us to go to disneyland stadium ( anahiem stadium ) and then LEFT THE LOS ANGELES
MEMORIAL COLISEUM VACANT ..... and empty !!!! I guess i am supposed to wish them well in the
next super bowl IN THE GEORGIA DOOM ( georgia dome ) oh well !!!!
but now the LOS ANGELES M.T.A. has bought all of the RAIL RIGHT OF WAYS around the COLISEUM????
and for almost ten years we not see these right of way signs RUSTING !!!!! what are we supposed to
do now ?? HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS
Saw a small article in one of the "trades" that I get about AmTrak.
1999 saw a 2% increase to 21.5M ... Metroliner 3rd consecutive ridership record ... Keystone service up 18%.
Mr t__:^)
ACELA could not possibly have better timing. People are fed up with the quality of service on the airlines. Airline fares have been rising. And oil prices are up, forcing the airlines to raise prices even more. This is best of all possible worlds.
If they can't come up with significant ridership and profitability increases through ACELA in this environment, pull the plug.
Larry, I must agree with you on this one. Lets hope they realy give athe good old college try. Maybe intercity travel will start comming back if they provide good service & arrive on time ? With the amount of time you need to arrive at the airport before your flight (and the other items you mentioned) the timing sure is good.
Mr t__:^)
The question is: what will happen if they don't break even? Hopefully, they would spin off the long distance stuff (perhaps to luxury operators) and maintain some sort of regional service in CA, the midwest, and the northeast. Those will survive - with subsidies - because transportation needs subsidy and rail makes too much sense in those relatively dense areas.
Meanwhile, states are sponsoring more and more trains. And Congress will probably never break up Amtrak as long as it makes progress, which it _seems_ to be doing. They will almost certainly not let it get rid of the long distance trains - too many senators want a train in their state. This is one of amtraks big problems.
It seems like the pressure is doing amtrak good. I have not been on an amtrak that was less than half full in years. It will be very interesting to see how lean and mean, and customer responsive, this elephantine government arm can become.
That's about all I wanted to say ... e-Purse seems to be the latest buzz word for Smart Cards or various type (credit/debit/mass transit).
Mr t__:^)
A silly MetroCard question: Can your individual MetroCrd be traced? I was just curious if someone could take your card, run it thru some database, and tell EVERY station/bus it has been used at.....I know they have used EZPasses that way, just wondering if the same holds true with the MC....
YES ... they do it all the time looking for unusual "patterens".
With your MC s/n in hand you can "negitive list" a lost/stolen MC, i.e. cancel it. Getting a refund is another matter ... if you don't have the card or it doesn't have your name on it (Sr/Disabled or Mail & Ride) it's bacially TS.
Mr t__:^)
Betcha they know a transit buff when they see one! They're the ones where they get on wherever..and don't re-enter for 4 hours, then always at Stillwell......
They also need the S/N to research an error. I had a second fare deducted when I changed x-buses 2 weeks ago. I got a new $3 card in the mail a week later with a letter explaining that it was their error. I called the Metrocard number from my cell phone from the bus :)
-Hank
Not realy ... they CAN look at activity by line/route and see the s/n that were used. That activity reports what kind of card was used, so if someone tryed to tinker with the card (electronicaly) they would see it (I'm thinking of something very specific that they look for but don't think I should speak of it here).
Right now THEY are concerned with what one of our fareboxes might be doing to MCs & are paying me a visit ... that's a good thing because I've run reports on the bus & nothing shows on the reports I can run.
Mr t__:^)
Maybe I've been asleep on this one, but a small news item in one of the trades I get says LA is getting new fareboxes, mfg by that OTHER company, i.e. GFI. They will take coin, tokens, bills AND MetroCards. Since they are not one of the out-of-town cards in my collection this is either a missprint or they're using the same brand name as NYC OR maybe it's the very same card .... NOT.
Mr t__:^)
I assume that since NY is probably the biggest case of fare automation in the U.S (by scale of the system size coupled with the scale of the automation itself), then the MetroCard is likely a common word in the industry for AFC systems.
I guess it's like Scotch Tape, so the dip/swipe cards are now metrocards, but in NYC they're MetroCards.
Mr t__:^)
i dont think so LOS ANGELES IS T O O cheap !!!
Does anyone know the closest subway station to 1370 ralph ave? It's in Brooklyn between Ditmas Ave and Market St. Where is that station located?
It's between Avenue D and Foster Avenue. Market is a back alley and Avenue D is the name of the avenue on the even side of Ralph. Anyway, the closest stop would probably be Rockaway Parkway on the L, but that's not at all relevant, it's too far and incovenient to walk.
Take the 3 to Sutter Avenue-Rutland Road and take the B78-Ralph Avenue Bus from there.
This morning while passing through South Station in Boston, I stopped to ask the AMTRAK agent at the information booth about the start-up of AMTRAK ACELA Regional service from Boston to NYC. He said it would begin next week, but no exact date has been made public yet. He said there would initially be two electric trains per day (the first two southbound expresses in the morning); running time would be under four hours. Then he added that there is still no date for ACELA Express service, though "mid-spring" is anticipated.
A few other notes from my ride from Mansfield to Boston on the Attleboro branch of the MBTA Purple Line Commuter Rail this morning (this line uses the NE Corridor tracks):
Electronic message boards have been installed on all platforms from (at least) Mansfield inbound to Boston. They are not in use yet, but appear as though they'll be able to display a scrolling text message. There are also speakers mounted, I assume for voice messages.
The three-foot high fence between the two tracks at Mansfield have signs saying, "WARNING - LUBRICATED FENCE." Indeed, you can see a slimy coating on the fence. (I wonder why they didn't just make the fence higher?)
From Readville inbound to Ruggles, the main line is three tracks, but there is no wire above the southbound local track; just the center express and northbound local tracks are wired.
Lubricted fences in-between the tracks?? Is this Amtrak's plan to deal with the tight clearances between passing Acela trains due to them being too wide?? ;)
Blah - I meant Lubricated...
The following article appeared in Railpace's website today:
"NEW NEC TIMETABLE TO FEATURE ACELA REGIONAL SERVICE TO BOSTON: Amtrak will issue a new Northeast Corridor on January 31. The new schedules will feature the two pairs of new Acela Regional trains that will operate from Washington, D.C. to Boston, Massachusetts. These trains will be powered by AEM-7 locomotives directly to Boston under 25,000 volt catenary. The schedule for the regional trains will be as follows:
Train No. 131 will operate Monday through Friday, departing Boston at 6:15 a.m., arriving New York at 10:10 a.m., departing 10:25 a.m., and terminating in Washington at 1:50 p.m.
Train No. 133 will operate Daily, departing Boston at 5:00 p.m., arriving New York at 8:59 p.m., departing at 9:36 p.m., and terminating in Washington at 12:40 a.m.
Train No. 130 will operate Monday through Friday, departing Washington at 5:00 a.m., arriving in New York at 8:06 a.m., departing at 8:35 a.m., and terminating in Boston at 12:34 p.m.
Train No. 132 will operate Daily, departing Washington at 1:10 p.m., arriving in New York at 4:30 p.m., departing at 4:55 p.m., and terminating in Boston at 8:54 p.m.
Amtrak currently plans only to operate two pairs of electric trains to Boston. This is due to a shortage of electric locomotives. This situation should be alleviated with the arrival of the HHL locomotives. Also, two segments of the Corridor east of New Haven currently have only one of the two tracks electrified. These segments are between Old Saybrook, Ct. and Westerly, Rhode Island and between Cranston, Rhode Island and Route 128, Massachusetts.... The new revised Northeast Corridor timetable will also list a new mail train, No. 10. This train will depart Washington at 7:05 p.m., arrive in Philadelphia at 9:05 p.m., depart at 9:45 p.m., arrive in New York at 11:26 p.m., depart at 12:10 a.m., arrive in New Have at 1:41 a.m., depart at 2:30 a.m., and terminate in Springfield, Ma. at 3:50 a.m. This train will carry no passengers, just mail and express. (posted 01/23)"
Apparently the first run will be for the press.
I haven't seen any updates on Acela Express service, or on Amtrak's progress in addressing the wheel-wear issue discovered in the Colorado testing. I'm willing to wait for that to get taken care of; when I'm riding a train I generally prefer that its wheels stay the in the same shape, and attached at the same place....
Lubricated fences are a great idea, IF they consistenly go out there and reapply the stuff. Why don't they used barbed wire? I think they cannot use higher fences due to the proximity of the trains. But I am sure 99% of commuters will never climb over a fence covered with slime.
Hope that Acela Express appears sometime soon. A lot is riding on that....
Believe it or not, they actually caught a "regular" near North Station who would bring his own surgical gloves every day so he could stay clean while jumping over the lubricated fence. The police got wise to his scheme since every day they would find another pair of gloves in the same spot.
And a litterer too. I hope the fine was big.
Wow, that was pretty damn clever. Stupid cops, think they can tell us where to go.
Will the MBTA Commuter ops take advantage of the newly electrified track now?
I know all their engines are diesel but can/will they use the wire in the future?
The MBTA says there are no plans to take advantage of the wire on the NEC from South Station to Providence. It would take a large investment in new engines, to serve only one of the dozen commuter rail lines.
If the long-planned, but not-funded "North-South Rail Link" ever happens, electrification will occur northward through Boston up the Main Line, and then the MBTA would have sufficient reason to do so. My guess is the 2nd Avenue Subway will be completed first...
The AMTRAK Reservations Site has been updated to reflect the start-up of ACELA Regional service next Monday. Selecting a round-trip BOS-NYP-BOS, it came up with a fare of $101 in coach, and $141 in business class (including the discount for AAA members).
I've tried the AMTRAK site a couple of times. To check a fare, I had to register, put in all this information (with code words I can never remember), and pretend to put in a reservation. I got nowhere.
Can you now just go in and check on schedules and fares?
No, Larry, I think you must register. They don't have a "guest" facility as many of the airline Web sites do.
This actually has been changed in the last few months. If you go to the reservations site's front page you can click on "Schedules and Sample Fares" ... enter a station pair and date and choose "Get Schedule". A list of possible trains is returned, and you can choose one and click on "Show Fares".
This doesn't price any discounts or accomodations charges, just simple one-way coach fares.
You're right, its all there -- schedules in Adobe Acrobat, and sample fares for one-way coach. Maybe they'll add round trips next.
Sample fares is the key word. I don't remember the exact fare amounts, but my son and I were pricing a round-trip ticket to LA from Rocky Mount, NC - him by using the guest access, me by signing in. The fare I was quoted for the round-trip was less than the fare he was getting for one-way.
Register. It's painless. Use the same password that you use for everything else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the update, David! I'll give it a try. But you make a good point about discounts; a lot of folks belong to AAA and it's nice to get that discount. Are there other groups eligible, such as AARP?
I think that Amtrak has a standard seniors discount fare.......
yup, seniors and childrens' fares are handled pretty smoothly by the Reservations website. Amtrak gives NARP (National Association of Railroad Passengers) members the same discounts as for AAA. There's also a 15% discount for students who have the Student Advantage card, which costs some amount annually but is free for students who get some kind of AT&T calling card. The NARP, AAA, and SA discounts are also handled by the website.
Other discounts like passengers with disabilities and Amtrak special offers (Air-Rail, occasional companion fare discounts, rail passes, etc.) are not handled on the reservations website, even though they are documented on the main website.
The Web-only "Rail Sale" has finally been moved from inside the registered users area out to the front, so you can see routes that carry deep coach discounts without going through the whole registration process. Of course, you can only book those fares on the website, so you'd have to register if you see a fare you want; and the Northeast services are never on Rail Sale. I've never tried Rail Sale to see if actually booking the advertised fares is an easy process. (I've had many experiences on air ticket reservations sites where it's impossible to tell if an advertised discount fare is actually available at the time I'm looking.)
If Rail Sale lists it, it is currently available. And using the regular online booking will get you a Rail Sale seat if it's available, even if you don't know about the sale beforehand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When the question was asked at the January BSRA meeting, one respondant stated that the substations were designed to meet Amtrak's needs only and that the MBTA was offered the chance to add capacity for BOS-PRO. They declined.
Hello Gerry and Todd.
There has been some speculation that, when the oldest of the F40's go to scrap about 2006, they may buy up to 6 ALP-44/AEM7 types. But that's all, just speculation as a purchase option. And this assumes that the F40s will be retired at age 25-26. They may, or may not.
It is interesting to speculate what the State of Rhode Island may do in this regard, once the service to TF Green Airport gets going. If they contribute to the power pool, they may opt for an electric loco so it can't be used off-corridor and rack up any excess mileage.
Regarding the N/S rail link, the latest I heard was the notion of using dual-modes, a la Metro North and the LIRR. That way they wouldn't have to electrify outside of downtown, they could keep the T and Amtrak power systems separate, and they could presumably tap into the existing DC power system for the subway system. In the realm of fantasy, it would also allow Red Line trains to shuttle within downtown, from Cabot or Back Bay to North Station or Charlestown, outside the rush hours, if they were inclined to do so, and if the 3rd rails were compatible. Perhaps a new rapid transit line on the cheap? If the operations were totally separate, the FRA should allow it.
If the rail link happens at all, it probably wont happen at least till the next "boom" cycle in the real estate market, though. The key will lay in developing the yard areas south of South Station, possibly along with the old post office, and making the new rail tunnel pay in this fashion. Neat idea, build housing and transit at the same time. Back to the future!
SEE YA
CONRAD
Interesting insight, Conrad. As one who uses both the north and south sides of the commuter rail system frequently, I could sure benefit from the link. But as I said before, I suspect the 2nd Ave. Subway will debut before the first shovel is turned for the NSRL!
ACELA or Amtrak Customers Expect Late Arrivals, I'll wait to see it to believe it!!
I believe I mentioned a few weeks ago that AMTRAK is now sponsoring the weather three times a day on WCBS Newsradio-88.
As some may know, there is a computerized log which the news anchors use to tell them what to do when -- such as reading or playing recorded commercials. It's all in a short-hand, that includes the elapsed time of the event, if it's live or recorded, and who the sponsor is. When I was at the station last weekend, I took a peek at the log to see the AMTRAK sponsorship. It's a 60-Second Live commercial, which got abbreviated as:
60SLAMTRAK
Boy, did I laugh when I saw that! Little do they know...
Recently, it was revealed that 11-car E and F trains were used from 1953 thru 1957. In addition, two conductors were used on such trains. Is it possible that they were situated between the first two cars and the last two cars? I picked up a video of The Wrong Man at Tower Records (yes, we have a store in Denver), and if you watch the scene where Henry Fonda gets off the train at presumably Roosevelt Ave., you can plainly see a conductor between the first two cars.
that's how it was done.
never will happen. platforms aren't long enough for 60 and 75 foot cars. unless they get new cars that are the length of the A division Fleet.
Almost all IND stations were designed with a length that could accomodate 660' (11 car) trains. Today, many of these stations have had this extra space "filled" with storage and utility areas, so it's not too feasible.
Mike Quill, the president of the TWU at the time, made public denunciations of the 11-car trains on the E and F, claiming that the TA wasn't telling the people that the doors on one car would not open at all the stations.
Until sometime in the 1950s, all ten-car IRT and IND trains had two conductors. Folk wisdom also says that a reason the BRT/BMT went to 67' cars was to avoid the extra conductor, but that is historically questionable because of the way the controls on the BMT Standard were originally configured.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Mike Quill, the president of the TWU at the time, made public denunciations of the 11-car trains on the E and F, claiming that the TA wasn't telling the people that the doors on one car would not open at all the stations.
First off, both the E and F had all doors open at all stations. The F ran to Church Ave at the time that Culver was switched to the IND. It was cut back to Bway-Lafayette and the D became the Culver line, to keep 11-car trains.
Until sometime in the 1950s, all ten-car IRT and IND trains had two conductors.
This provided one benefit at Bowling Green. The first two cars on the downtown would platform on both sides, making transfer to the South Ferry Shuttle easy.
Folk wisdom also says that a reason the BRT/BMT went to 67' cars was to avoid the extra conductor
Actually the A/B's had a conductor in every car, when they went into service. The did not introduce MUDC until after the WWI inflation. However, they did introduce the first OPTO trains.
Mqst subway expantion over the last 30 years has taken place in Queens[63 st line under 41 ave to Queens Plaza,and the Archer Avenue line with it tagnets]. Since the TA wants to build the 2nd avenue lines upper Manhattan section, what about the rest of the"1968 Plan For Action" lines? L.I.E subway is out of the question. The NIMBYs will cry foul. What about the Archer extention to Springfield Gardens? Simple enough. Build the orginal ramp to the Atlantic line[LIRR]and use the stations already there[with upgrades of course],and build the new ones at an latter time. What about the Jewel avenue line? NIMBYs. Queens X-town? Long Island Railroad doesn't want the line to interfear with there operations. Jamaica line extention past Parsons/Archer to Queens village? Not likely. L.G.A line from Ditmars Blvd 'N' LINE? Once again, NIMBYs. and the same for the JFK Airport line from 63 street[NIMBYs]. So what will become of subway expantion in New York City 20 years from now? Any takers?
My theories (but I'm not formally educated) are that most things are cyclical. The current NIMBYs are offspring of an era that didn't care the slightest bit about communities and public works effects on them. Take the typical Robert Moses project. Many may recall struggles of this matter, or were merely indocrinated by their immediate predecessors in the struggle. I'm sure that the next generation (of which I am a part) would gain control knowing of the obstructions to the greater good that these people caused and lash out against them, bringing us back to the time when plowing down whatever necessary to build a project was the norm.
Mr. Moses's idea rapid transit was a seamless string of road carved and sliced though neighborhoods regardless of who agreed or not. HE said it was for the greater good of the whole TRI-STATE AREA, while subways would benifit just a few. Boy, he should have been around today to see what his line of thinking has done to his 'seamless' roads.
Robert Moses was a product of the popular school of thought at the time regarding roads vs. public transit. Had he not existed, there still would have been no better rail built at the time, and perhaps without his iron fist, less roads would have been built too.
We would have been even worse off.
As forms of transit, subways are inflexible, however their method of crowding more people through a point than a road would works hand-in-hand with the crowding that city centers experience. Without a center, transit is useless, as a significant number of people are not moving towards a single location. New York of course, is better off with A LOT of RT services, but the highways have done well for the outskirts.
I think that some form of LaGuardia Line (N or LIRR) will get built within the next 20 years just because some of the other cities like Chicago (both O'Hare and Midway) and Atlanta and even Cleveland have Rapid Transit to the Airport and some business travellers like that. New York will do it just to stay competive. The Blue line to Boston's Logan Airport gets pretty good patronage. Even the Philadelphia Commuter Rail to Philadelphia does reasonably well from what I've seen, althouth it probably is still quite a money loser due to general SEPTA practices.
I also think that the extension of the 7, Flushing Line, West to the Javits Center will make it by 2020, again because other cities have rapid transit to this type of forum.
The JFK Airtrain will probably exist too, but it will be a big expensive waste because the connection to the Subway or LIRR will not have been built.
Baltimore's rail service to BWI airport is, at best, motley. The MARC/Amtrak stop is about a mile from the terminal, and service (on MARC) is limited. The new Central Light Rail spur goes right to the northeast part of the terminal, but it is a very slow ride, especially in downtown where the line shares Howard street with other traffic. If you're coming N/B from the Glen Burnie end you have to transfer in Linthicum for the airport.
Just as bad is the short spur to Penn Station, which again requires a transfer for anyone coming from the north. The segment thru Hunt Valley Industrial Park is excruciatingly slow, with too many stops and tight curves.
In fact, the entire Light Rail line was built specifically to feed the Camden Yards sports complex - commuters be damned.
I heard something about the E line extended to Euclid while the C will be out for a while i am not sure but why?
There's a whole thread about this! Currently active! Don't start another.
I hear something about the C being shut down for a few months for switch repair or something like that so the E will run under Fulton Street once again for a while.
The switches at WTC are being repaired so C service is suspended and the E will run to Euclid.
I noticed on the last two weekends that Myrtle Ave R40A trains are being stored, starting on Friday evenings, on the F4 track under fourth ave, Brooklyn. Wouldn't these trains normally lay up at Coney Island? Is there some construction going on somewhere? This seems like a good chance for vandalism to occur....
dave
They're being layed up underground due to the extreme cold weather.
Cold weather plans have trains which are normally layed up in yards stored underground.
The R142 test train was on the road today, at 2:10PM. I headed up to the Dyre Av line to see if the cars had come out, but there wasn't any sign of them. As I was returning to the East, the Bombardier Units 6301-6305 came out with a handful of personnel on board. Cars came out of Track 13 in the Barn onto Yard Lead designated as Track B and headed for E180th St Middle. T/O dumped his train at the station as it was scheduled to go north. Due to a General Order in effect on the 2 today, the test train was not going up on the White Plains Line for testing. The cars more than likely went to Y3 Track on the Dyre Av line.
This was my first official sighting of the cars, other than them being delivered by diesel. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the Kawasaki Units on the road?
Gentlemen (or ladies if there are any here), reply if you like, but let's not start the scrap bit here!!!
-Stef
The 4,5,6 trains are known for the green circle(Lexington ave)
The 1,2,3 trains are known for the red circle (7th ave/Broadway)
The 7 purple(flushing)
But why on the 142's all the front end sign's are in digital red?
Won't that confuse people who have on their walkman or are in a
habit of just looking at the color.
Imagine a 5 train coming in to 149st grandconcouse with a red end sign
the first day in passenger service. That gonna be confusing for a while.
I agree. It stinks. I estimate the extra parts cost of full color at $500 max. per sign (probably much less). There might have been a some R&D as far as software and electronics to drive them, but in the scope of such a large engineering project as a state-of-the-art subway car, it would have been insignificant, and well worth it, IMHO.
i guess those poor souls who just rely on the color of the sign to pick the correct train will just have to READ what the sign actually says, right? RIF(Reading IS Fundamental) are people just too damn lazy or just out right stupid that they can't read what the sign on the front or the side signs say? If the front destination sign is either dark or too dirty there are side signs which show the route and sometimes even the correct south/north terminal...
I agree that people should be smart enough to read the signs. But frankly, I find it convenitent knowing whether a 2 or a 5 train is approaching thanks to the right color circle. So if it isn't that much to have red or green electronic end signs, it's still money well spent I think. -Nick
If it's so objectionable that people might rely on color coding, why did the MTA introduce it in the first place? And where are all the sub-talkers who are "green" with envy over DC and other systems which use only color to designate routes?
Color communicates. Web Design 101, ditto multi-media, ditto graphics.
My understanding was that, at least until recently, red was the only color LED (light emitting diode) that had adequate brightness for applications such as destination signs. For instance, the bus destination signs in Quebec City are all-red LEDs.
And if you look at many traffic signals, you'll see that only the red aspect is LED; the rest are incandescant.
That technological hurdle has been overcome, say the LED manufacturers, but a multicolor matrix might not have achieved the level of detail and luminosity that the TA wanted. Or perhaps the specs predate the latest technology. I agree with you though, it could be confusing. But I still prefer the red LEDs over the flip-dot signs that fade in the sun. Don't know if they looked at fiber optics; maybe someone else does? They are great in traffic and ped signals.
Red is by far the easiest and cheapest color to make a bright LEDs, but bright green had been around for quite some time, and bright yellow much longer. It is only the bright blue that has been elusive until the last couple years. But you can now make full-color, using red, green, and blue LEDs. The blues would account for most of the cost of the display, but as I said, still under $500 total, I think.
In Philly, 99-percent of traffic lights have LEDs for the red, but several intersections have LEDs for all 3 colors - 18th & Market is one such intersection, and they work very well...
The Monreal Metro's newer cars have multi-colored LED signs INSIDE the cars, for destination info as well as what I guess is best called "promotional announcements."
Sounds like Conrad Misek is also a would-be electrical engineer.
The Monreal Metro's newer cars have multi-colored LED signs INSIDE the cars, for destination info as well as what I guess is best called "promotional announcements."
So do the R142s - but multi-color is different than full-color.
Creating a display that does red, green, and yellow is easy. Every color in the spectrum is another level of complexity altogether. It would require custom engineeriung, whereas red/yellow/green matrix displays can be had off-the-shelf...
Do the new cars have maps as well? I haven't ridden on Montreal's Metro since 1971, so all I have to go by is the original rolling stock.
Those cars had plain old roller curtains up front which showed the route number and destination. There were system maps inside each car with graphics very similar to the route maps used in New York. The maps were not to any scale; indeed, they were abstract to say the least. The focal point was Barry di Montigni (sp), the lone transfer station among the three original lines. Line 1, or the green line, went straight across. Line 2 started in the lower LH corner, cut diagonally through the transfer or "correspondance" station, then straightened out before ending in the upper RH corner. Line 4 originated at the transfer station, then went down diagonally to the right before straightening out. It was the shortest line, the one which went to Expo 67.
Are any of the original cars still in service? They had a sound unlike anything I'd ever heard.
Those rubber tires gave them that strange sound. They also used to have a `strobe motion' cigarette ad on the green line, similar to the moving artwork that used to be in the Myrtle Ave. station. When you rode westbound on the line, the cigarette went back into the box.
I think it's more than just the tires. The whine of the motors as the cars accelerate seems to hit three distinct notes. It's more pleasant than any other subway sound I can think of.
It's a great system for a city of Montreal's size.
Check out:
http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/metro/a-mapmet.htm
As you can see with this map, the system must have expanded considerably from Steve B-8AVEXP's '71 visit. There are 4 lines and 4 transfer stations.
Also, check out the neighborhood map links for each station. They are incredibly detailed!
Back in 1971, the original Metro system had not been expanded yet. The best way to describe the sounds those trains made would be: from a dead stop, you'd hear a single-pitched sound increasing in pitch until it got to about third space C# on the treble staff, at which point two louder pitches an octave lower and a minor third apart would take over and continue increasing in pitch as the train gathered speed. As the train slowed to a stop, the pitch would drop, and the doors would open before the train came to a full stop. You'd hear a rush of escaping air just after the doors opened. There were no announcements made on the trains. There was a distinctive smell as well, with a tinge of rubber to it from the tires.
Yes they are still in service. The map on the montreal Metro is very different now from the MTA's on their newer model trains were new LCD signs installed in 1994. Berri(not Barry) de Montigni is now known as Berri U-QUAM. the fair is now 1.35 U.S. and off-peak service has changed.
I stand corrected on the spelling.
i live in montreal but i come from the bronx, NY.. the montreal metro is the quietest subway ive ever been on.. those three distinct notes that the trains make whenever they pull out of a station get stuck in my head so easily! the train operators here operate on much less tight rules than in NYC i imagine.. the doors are very frequently open before the trains stop and you could step out while its still moving.. montreal is a crazy place in a LOT of ways though..
Well, only the MR-73 cars (the ones with the LED telecite ads and are in line 2, 4 and 5) make that noise. The Line 1 cars (MR-63) make no noise and dont have these neat LED telecite ads.
" . . . montreal is a crazy place in a LOT of ways though."
That's what makes it SO wonderful! It's a great escape when you need to get away from New York. It's so much more relaxed, but still cosmopolitan.
Quebec city is even more beautiful. I was stunned by how European it is. The most of any place I've been in North America. But alas, it has no subway (required transit content).
[In Philly, 99-percent of traffic lights have LEDs for the red, but
several intersections have LEDs for all 3 colors - 18th & Market is one
such intersection, and they work very well...]
How do you tell the difference?
I usually tell by the color (which is a slightly different shade than you may be used to seeing) and the crispness of the on/off (no twinkle). Also if you look closely you can make out the matrix pattern, as opposed to the filament of a traditional bulb.
(P.S. Rich - Thanks for the insight! Very interesting)
A lot of new trucks (particularly postal vehicles) have them as stop lights. Vince Pellegrin (formerly) of NYCT wrote a neat article on LEDs, I think in METRO, maybe 2 years ago or so.
I think the easiest way to spot LED traffic lights is the even brightness:
Regular lights are brighter in the center - LEDs are totally even.
Also LEDs can be made more `lane specific' -- if they use an LED for a left turn signal, it can be set up so people in the other lanes barely see anything lit at all. Regular lights spread their illumination over a wider area.
Bad thing I see in Jersey-single turning arrows with 2 color LEDs. The one arrow is green, then yellow, then black. Not good if you're colorblind.
-Hank
Is that a single three-color LED in one slot? If so it, sounds like a future lawsuit to me.
It is, but they've been doing the same thing with bulbs for years - clear glass masked to form the arrow, two or three colored bulbs illuminated sequentially. The LED is simply the modern incarnation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In a single lens? I've never seen that done with incandesents.
-Hank
North Carolina's had them for years. Most are just two-color - green and yellow - but there are a few with red as well. There was one in Raleigh that I used every day where, for about two weeks, the yellow stayed on all the time, with the red and green cycling on and off as appropriate. Really weird!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
THat's probably because of the way bipolar LEDs function. They change color with their polarity. If you alternate the polarity quickly, you get yellow. Probably a loose ground.
-Hank
I'm not sure, Hank. Effectively, the red became orange and the green became a sickly green-yellow, while the normal yellow was much brighter than usual. They replaced the entire signal head when they fixed it - closed the lane, I had to go to the next intersection and make a U-turn that day at lunchtime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Much of Newark and Neptune Twp have the green only. A much more deeper color than the pale incandescent. They even have all 3 colors in the Jay St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn stations--yes, in the subway! As was said, you can tell by the crispness when going on and off, and the green is much deeper. The yellow is also that crisp amber used on many signs, and new bus and truck bulkhead/turning lights also.
What gets me is that they probably spent a fortune on "identity consultants" to accustom the public to signage. A certain color means a certain mainline. A circle means a regular route, a diamond a restricted service, and so on.
A third of a century ago, the TA still considered it important that marker lights be accurate, not only for train routing, but for those passengers who were used to identifying their trains that way.
I miss marker lights. They were a simple and effective way of describing some pretty complex routings--nowadays we call such solutions "elegant."
That was one aspect I never paid any attention to - marker lights. Now I wish I had.
the standard colors on the end sihns are going to be red green and yellow. it seems okay to me because all irt lines are red and green plus they aren't coming to the 7 line where the color code is purple.
How do you know? All we know is that the R-33 singles will meet justice after their many years of crimes against humanity.
THey most likely have bi-polar LEDs, which can be be red, green or a dim amber, depending upon the polarity.
-Hank
Yeah, they probably just didn't change the 5 to green. Any number can be any color (would be good for when the 2 is rerouted to the Lexington). When the 110 was displayed in the transit museum, the technician displayed a yellow 3 and a red diamond S.
BTW, if the cars ever run on the 7, they'll probably just use red. The difference isn't great enough to have to include blue to make purple for just that one line. It's the B div. cars that will beed that for the A, C, E & L(gray is ½RGB). One company is selling 8×8 full color panels for $80 each (64 0r more of these would be required for a full square sign). I hope the price comes down by the time the 143's are ordered, that the TA decides not to be cheap. Otherwise, the A, C, E & L will probably wind up green, the closest color to the blue and gray, and that, if they don't stick to roll signs.
Does anyone know where I can find pictures of the Bombardier 1800's that run on the Boston MBTA Red Line? These cars are only about five years old. I've already seen the pics on this site and on members.aol.com/netransit (a very good site, BTW)
After all or most of the R142's have arrived, why not put the redbirds on the 1, 3, 4, and 6 lines for awhile, and re-build the R-62's? It's time for that fleet to receive new windows with scratchproof windows, polish up the scratched interiors, replace buckled floors, and replace roll signs with electronic ones...like the R46 rebuild in '93. Also, the MTA could probably add next stop indicator signs and comnputerized announcements as well if they want. The less mumbled announcemets (apologies to all the good conductors that make an extra effort to sound pleasant and clear), the better.
Now granted, this would only keep the redbirds on track for an extra 6 months to a year, but I think people who find them nostalgic would appreciate any extra time with them. But most cars go through at least one rebuild, and some of the R62's are in their seventeenth year of service. May as well rebuild during a rare subway car surplus! -Nick
The Redbirds are on death row. Nothing can prevent their speedy retirement when the R142's come online. Rust and age have sealed their fate.
Change the redbirds tostainless steel, and color the steel red. How much would the rebulid of at least 500 cars cost? Between $100,000,000 and $500,000,000?
How about titanium alloy? Hehe.....
Strong as hell and rust proof.
and light...
If the cars were re-bodied, they wouldn't have the same appeal to railfans that the Redbirds have. What we'd have is a new carbody with equipment that's as much as 41 years old (though much of it was rebuilt or replaced during overhaul -- 15 YEARS AGO), and trucks that wouldn't last more than a few years because of all the hard miles they've been through. Is that really what anybody wants?
Think of the R-142s as Redbirds with new bodies, motors, trucks, seats, climate control,... :-)
David
David
Well there have certainly been some interesting ideas on keeping the redbirds here longer. But does anyone think my original plan of overhauling the R62's while there is a subway surplus is a good idea? Remember, once all the R142's are here, there will be close to 7,000 cars before the redbirds get retired. Certainly they can last another 6 months to a year after that. -Nick
Why waste money to keep the antiquated rustbirds just for because YOU like them. That is not sound reasoning.
Work with a museum to save a couple of the better redbirds and enjoy the speed, reliability, and comfort of the new R-142's. this way you can have the best of both worlds.
Why waste money to keep the antiquated rustbirds just for because YOU like them. That is not
sound reasoning.
Actually, I'm not that big of a fan of the redbirds myself, even though many others on here are. But that was not my main reason for this idea. The fact is that it's time for the R62's to be overhauled, and the rebirds could certainly last another 6 months to a year (and the MTA can afford it without breaking the budget), so might as well bring the 80s fleet to 90s and 00s technology, and get rid of those d*mn scratches! -Nick
The R62's, which have recieved preventative maintenance since their initial delivery, will never need the massive GOH that other cars recieved in the late 1980's. So there is no need to keep the redbirds as insurance for this purpose.
Putting capital funds into a life extension program for the redbirds would be irresponsible in the extreme. for the amount of added life you would gain it may actually be cheaper to buy more R-142's, spreading out a bond payment schedule over 20 years. Of course, the railfan community should work to acquire some of the best redbirds for preservation.
I still think if the bulk of the R-142s come on line about the same time the 63rd St. connection is opened, they should shift some of the Redbirds over to the B division, put platform extenders on their sides and use them in rush hour service on the Eastern Division, to free up some of the R-40M/R-42s for Queens Blvd. use until the R-143s arrive and get the B divisin fleet back up to normal. It would only save them for another 18 months or so, but that's better than nothing and it would ease the ridiculous overcrowding situation on Queens Blvd sooner than the MTA plans to.
I tell you what,find some other use for those cars other than my Eastern lines. YOU keep them right where they are until they keill over.but not on the J/Z/L and M line.
Here's a thought... Over the past few weeks on SubTalk we've talked about three distinct issues:
1) What to do with the redbirds
2) Homeless people sleeping on the trains
3) What do to with Governor's Island
The obvious solution:
Ship all the redbirds to Governor's Island, put them all up on cinder blocks, hook up plumbing and electricity and convert them into housing for the homeless. Behold, Redbird City!
Don't applaud, just throw money... :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like John Rocker's home town. If the wheels are your house have no tires...
-Hank
It would be Rocker's home town so long as all the trains on the island are signed No. 7.
SEND THE REDBIRDS TO NEW YORK N. Y. ( las vegas ) right on !!!
NYC's white trash living in a "subway park"? LOL
good idea mister cole! i like it! though if the TA wants the redbirds to stay longer in service they would need to give them a stainless steel exterior and an interior rework like they did with the R32
response to myself! also newer modern mecanisms and LCD signs inside and out. if they were to do this, they would've gotten themselves 142's at a cheaper price.
If you do all that, it'll be more than the R-142 and you still have the problems of older cars.
In a hearing scheduled earlier today, the Powers That BeTM elected to return me to being a human, effective as soon as I go through a full sleep cycle.
This even though I suggested to them that they change their name to the Powers That ARE.
I forgot to mention that if you were to do that, they won't be Redbirds anymore.
A total waste of money, won't even satisfy the Redbird fans.
Here's a thought... Over the past few weeks on SubTalk we've talked about three distinct issues:
1) What to do with the redbirds
2) Homeless people sleeping on the trains
3) What do to with Governor's Island
The obvious solution:
Ship all the redbirds to Governor's Island, put them all up on cinder blocks, hook up plumbing and electricity and convert them into housing for the homeless. Behold, Redbird City!
Don't applaud, just throw money... :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
You now have cars that will rust faster. And you still have 40-year-old frames.
And 40 yo technology, which uses too much electricity and requires too much maintenance than the newer R142 will.
Redbird lovers, myself included, have to let go. I'll miss them.
But most cars go through at least one rebuild, and some of the R62's are in their seventeenth year of service.
The idea behind SMS (scheduled maintenance service(?)) is to fix components on a scheduled basis before they are expected to break down. This should negate the need for a costly rebuild. The majority of the fleet before the R-62 series needed GOHs because the cars were neglected for so long. I'm not so sure you're going to see any GOHs anytime soon, save for a mini-overhaul fo the R-32s.
--Mark
More than anything else, I'd love to see a live camera feed from anywhere on the NYC subways or els on the net. I've looked at a few railcams, but never found any subway cams.
Maybe someone in New York could make my millenium. We'd need someone who lives right on a line.... Hey, Stef?????
Bill
Sure Bill! Now if I could just get a hold of a camcorder....
-Stef
You could even turn it around to feature yourself in the video. Similar to 'The Truman Show', we could call it "Life with Stef". I am sure it would be an insomniacs delight.
That is incredibly amusing. I think though, that most would get tired of seeing me after a while.
-Stef
I've about had it with these people, who claim to be "transit advocates for the common transit rider. Complete bull. They're nothing but a liberal advocacy group which loves to publically bash the MTA for every little problem that exists today.
Today, I had to watch them rail on and on about subway cars being too dirty. I totally agree that they are too dirty, but all they did was claim that the MTA needs to hire more car cleaners. They fail to mention the "real" causes of dirty trains:
1. Passangers eating food on trains/busses. Perhaps they should advocate that the police actually enforce the rules against such practices. But no, that wouldn't fit into their liberal mindset, which dictates that increased law enforcement is akin to fascism.
2. The transit union. Not to open old arguments up, but the TWU's virulent opposition to the city using "workfare" people to do basic car cleaning is a major cause of the dirty trains. A few hundred of these people could have a dramatic impact upon how dirty/clean the trains actually are. However, attacking a labor union is taboo for these people.
3. Homeless advocates. The very same people who argue that homeless people have the "right" to sleep wherever they want means the trains become littered with "skells", thus contributing even more to the sanitation problems. But how could these people dare to attack these homeless advocates? How on earth could they actually support Mayor Guiliani's ideas about removing these people from public areas, including the subway? Ugh.
Mr. Russianoff does NOT speak for me, so I'd appreciate that he inform the public at his next press conference that he's merely a political activist with a political agenda "masked" as a transit advocate. I've always believed in truth in advertising.
The problem with the cops is that they merged the NYCTA transit police with the NYPD. We all know how the NYPD does such a "good" job.
I think the two different departments should remain as two different
groups.
As for you, whats wrong with a liberal advocacy group. That means justice and rights for common people. Conservatives in my mind are two narrow minded.
To work with different groups like the homeless, transit
advocates we must have a open mind.
Attacking a union that works with the public everyday is not a good idea. They work hard and should be praised. The snow makes it harder for them to do their jobs.
You support Gooliani? Looks like his ultra conservative idea of kicking homeless people out of shelters and subways is not a good idea. They have a right to ride, after all it is PUBLIC transportation. If they could pay they should be able to ride. As for sleeping, well thats a different story.
I think they should hire more people just to clean trains. I wouldn't mine doing it. Good pay.
"...whats wrong with a liberal advocacy group. That means justice and rights for common people."
That's what liberalism stood for decades ago but today it is home to anti-Americanism and anti-capitalism.
"Conservatives in my mind are two narrow minded."
Now that's a narrow minded statement, if ever there was one.
"To work with different groups like the homeless, transit
advocates we must have a open mind."
Open mind to a liberal means "believe liberal dogma without question"
"Attacking a union that works with the public everyday is not a good idea."
Nobody in this country is exempt from being disagreed with.
"You support Gooliani? Looks like his ultra conservative idea of kicking homeless people out of shelters and subways is not a good idea. They have a right to ride, after all it is PUBLIC transportation. If they could pay they should be able to ride. As for sleeping, well thats a different story."
Don't know what you're referring to. The original post clearly referred to people sleeping on the subway.
Alan Glick
What really annoys me is these lazy, good for nothing bums who wake up after the rush hour is over and sleep on the bench in a car, causing the loss of like 7 seats for normal people, and causes the people in the train to leave the car to avoid the urine stench that clings to them like the plague. I say if you contribute nothing to society, at least wake up before the rush hour and collect your cans then. These people should be pulled by their hair, off the train and onto the platform, and kicked into the corner away from the crowds.
Well that was extreme, but something (not that) needs to be done to push the non-disability afflicted members of the group.
Hey, I have the answer: clothes pins and air fresheners handed out to subway riders as they board during the morning rush.
These could be handed out at fare control stations by workfare persons.
Great idea, huh? ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
How about a nice hospital bed for those who need it? If only the "advocates" would allow it ...
Saying a position you disagree with is Un-American serves no useful purpose. It's just rudeness that polarizes any discussion. The theory is that America is about being able to take different points of view on things.
Furthermore, saying that any liberal is "anti-capitalist" because they tend to be for more business regulation, etc., is a great oversimplification. Its like saying that someone advancing a credible argument for some subway safety device, which you happen to disagree with, anti-mass transit because the device would slow the subway down.
Perhaps SubTalk would be more pleasant with more discussion and less polarization and extremism...
"Saying a position you disagree with is Un-American serves no useful purpose. It's just rudeness that polarizes any discussion. The theory is that America is about being able to take different points of view on things."
I was responding to someone whe said liberalism was always good and conservatism was always bad. That is polarizing. So is claiming that those who disagree with you are polarizing.
"Furthermore, saying that any liberal is "anti-capitalist"..."
What I actually said was that liberalism was the home of anti-capitalists. Of course there are other types in the liberal camp. But given a choice between the two parties, the anti-capitalist will choose the left.
"...less polarization and extremism..."
Reread the post I was responding to and see who is being polarizing and extreme.
Alan Glick
The Straphangers are in the business of staying in business. If service were perfect, the Straphangers wouldn't have anything to complain about, and therefore wouldn't have a reason to exist. This, of course, means that things can never be perfect. Watch what happens after the monthly MTA Board meetings: if NYCT announces something good, Straphangers either ignores it or says something like, "It's a start, but it's not enough." If you don't believe me, go into the archives of any of the major NYC papers.
David
Last week, during the really brutal cold snap, Coalition for the Homeless advocate Mary Brosnahan actually had the, um cajones to criticize Mayor Guliani by making the absurd claim that he deliberatly makes the shelter conditions SO bad that most homeless people choose the streets in a clandestine attempt to close them down. She then hinted that any homeless people who die due to exposure are "victims" of Guliani's radical conservative ideology. If it wasn't so despicable, I'd have laughed at her.
Sorry to jump into the thread so late, but....
Anyway, "David" is quite correct in his assessment of Straphangers. This is the same group that, back in the 1980's, sought to quash the first MTA Capital Program, on the grounds that system improvements would drive them out of business.
Note also that Straphangers is part and parcel of NYPIRG, which does the same sort of "advocacy" on all sorts of issues. The same process applies: If things go swimmingly, there is nothing to complain about, and thus no source of income for the "advocates."
Remember that the next time Straphangers' staffers sabotage service by pulling emergency cords or "becoming sick" on the train during rush hour.
Nothing wrong with a liberal advocacy group. I just dont like to see one disguised as something it's not.
>>>You support Gooliani? Looks like his ultra conservative idea of kicking homeless people out of shelters
and subways is not a good idea. <<<
According the supporters of the Wieset Woman Who Ever Lived, the jails are being filled with homeless people. It's not true.
You know, if they were in jail, the missus could always ask her husband could always pardon them. What works for FALN terrorists should be OK for the homeless, too.
They may do some good by bringing transit issues to light but are basically professional complainers. Who are they? Is it just Russianoff mouthing off in front of reporters or is there a real organization behind him.
(Who are the Straphangers)
They are part of NYPIRG (New York Public Interest Research Group), one of the constellation of similar groups founded by Ralph Nader. Nader's Raiders never see a conflict between the interests of workers and consumers -- its just the greedy profits that get in the way of both. They transfer the same idea over to the MTA, which does not make a profit.
But what is the alternative? The problem with the Straphangers is that they don't have millions to pay the pols under the table. If they did, we might actually get that Second Avenue Subway.
So NYPIRG is still around. When I was a student 20+ years ago at Brooklyn College they somehow (but legally) got a cut of the student government fees. How are they bankrolled now? By the way, there is no such thing as 'greedy' profits, just greedy tax-addicted governments. Capitalism won out a long time ago.
They still get a cut of the fee. But you're entitled to a refund if you'd like. Takes 6-12 months.
At CSI, there was a move afoot to defund them because their causes didn't mesh with the then-Stalinist leanings of the student government.
-Hank
Did'nt you hear: Larry Littlefield and his protege Conrad Misek are going to build a new Manny B, and all the tolls will go to NYPIRG.
Dont forget the fair share of tolls to the Socialist Worker's Welfare Fund.
Hmmm. Must be a right wing website. At work, I'M known as the pro-market conservative. But if (after 18 years of pouring more and more money in) you question an engineering mistake, you're a socialist.
For the record, Misek didn't think the bridge needed to be replaced. He bought the engineering line. I did, or at least I think some alternatives need to be developed to cut down on the damage while the bridge is under perpetual repair. Based on a perhaps unsophisticated method -- a linear extrapolation of the past 18 years, and an understanding of the damage it has caused -- I think some questions need to be asked.
I see the bridge as an infrastructure Vietnam. Once enough blood and treasure have been expended, you have to keep fighting the war the same way, because otherwise past money would have been wasted. We got the a bunch of agencies in a room for a meeting, and I asked how long the bridge would last, and got six different answers. So much for any attempt to translate engineering reports non-engineers don't understand into something they can understand.
More recently, I got a cost estimate for how much it costs to do various normal replacement and maintenance items on the bridge -- replace the stringer cables, the decks, etc -- and how long they last. Adds up to nothing. Then why is the current bridge repair costing hundreds of millions of dollars?
Perhaps when I'm on this site at age 80, and the bridge had had 40 years of full service with no additional cracking and no additional quality of life damage, Curious and the Ghost can get on and throw some more insults. That would be good. The alternatives are very, very bad, and I expect that those who made the decisions would not experience the results personally.
But the path we've gone down is already a mistake -- based on 22 years (minimum) of outages. Would that be tolerated anywhere else?
You probably are the conservative in your agency, which will not increase your popularity in a civil service system filled with low-ambition slugs. Start your own consulting firm, you'll get rich on City contracts. Then you can leave Windsor Terrace for Long Island or New Jersey. Not a bad life.
This all sounds like a combination of voodoo planning and social worker's psychobabble. A linear progression is the most primative form of forecasting. I would not want to hang a multi billion dollar project on it.
What they do is fire up commuters by pointing out and exaggerating every single problem publically, thus providing themselves with a reason to exist (and complain, attack unfavorable politicians, etc.)
Interesting comments. Do the Straphangers actually have articulated policies on the three issues you mention (eating on trains, no workfare cleaners, skells), or do they just sidestep them? Seems to me that if the Straphangers do indeed favor eating, oppose workfare cleaners and support the "rights" of skells, then they're being dishonest in bashing the MTA over subway filth. If they really haven't considered those issues, then they're just being naive. Hard to tell which is worse.
I would hardly call the people who run this group "naive". In fact, they're incredibly savy, politically. I'm sure they don't much care about dirty trains per say, but they do like to use the situation to further their political objective, which is to create as much negative publicity about Republicans and other non-liberal Democrats as is possible.
Agreed about the garbage problem. Subways and LIRR are dirty because New Yorkers are resolute slobs.
Can any subtalkers tell me, besider basic laziness, why food wrappers, coffee cups etc. can not be carried out when exiting the car and deposited in the numerous trash cans on the platforms? It's not hard.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Simple. Nobody cares. Civic responsibility is as extinct as the dodo bird.
I agree... And it's not just New Yorkers.
I rode Metra's C&NW North Line into downtown Chicago and back every day for a year, and this is the line that passes through all of the tony suburbs on Chicago's North Shore. These are the villages that people in Michael Jordan's income bracket call home, but that doesn't stop people from leaving the train an absolute mess upon its arrival at Chicago & North Western Station.
Whether it's a copy of the Sun-Times and an empty bottle of Mad Dog on a CTA train, or the New York Times and an empty Starbucks cup strewn about the floor of a Metra train, it's still a mess and people should know better.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
[Can any subtalkers tell me, besider basic laziness, why food wrappers, coffee cups etc. can not be carried out when exiting the car and deposited in the numerous trash cans on the platforms? It's not
hard.]
Sheer laziness is probably 85% of it. The rest? I'd say that leaving trash behind is a subtle way of expressing one's anger whenever there's a service delay or other snafu. Hey, I've done it. I'm usually pretty diligent about removing my newspaper and Diet Pepsi can when my LIRR train arrives at Penn Station each morning. But when the train crawls in 45 minutes late, after having heard the conductor say "a stalled train ahead of us" or some similar dog-ate-my-homework tale, I'm as likely as not to leave my junk behind. Somehow I highly doubt I'm alone in this respect.
Unfortunately, the people who built the subway a century ago didn't realize that by selling food, drinks and other items inside the subway, they would create a situation where sloppiness would reign unless tight controls were maintained on littering. They weren't and this is the result.
It's sort of like Bratton's "broken window" theory to crime -- if you let one broken window go, it's a sign to others that nobody cares, and it's OK to do as you please. Down in Washington, they never let the eating/littering habit become ingrained on the Metro, so 25 years after it opened, the system is still very clean, even though the above ground areas in many sections of the city rival any of the most downtrodden areas of New York.
Yeah, but leaving your junk on the train isn't going to make it be on time, next time. Just like honking your car horn at the guy in front of you won't make him move, because there 's ten cars ahead of him.
We can end trash pollution...and noise pollution...by being just a little more considerate every day.
www.forgotten-ny.com
People are slobs. Said to say, but it's part of human nature. The first caveman threw his dinosaur bone out in "the street" so some other poor neanderathal could trip over it. It's that simple.
Now fast forward to the 21st Century. What's changed?
People have been lazy for Millenniums. I don't think behavior is likely to change.
P.S., I also believe that when commuters see station cleaners it probably gives some people (slobs) an excuse to throw things on the floor since they think someone will come along behind them and pick it up (like station cleaners are their personal maids or something).
Doug aka BMTman
I think it works the other way: If people see litter, they are more likely to litter. If a station is pretty clean (maybe cleaner than any in NYC) they are less likely to litter. I think this is part of why the DC Metro is so clean. There is not even any litter or dirt on the tracks! Of course, the no food + draconian cops help a lot.
>>>There is not even any litter or dirt on the tracks! Of course, the no food +
draconian cops help a lot.<<
The thing is, when there are a lot of cops in evidence, there's going to be a lot more peace, quiet, and general order. A lot of people though, such as 90% of the elected officials in NYC not in City Hall, equate 'peace, quiet and order' with the Third Reich. Watch out when Green seizes City Hall...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Litter -- watch out when Green seizes City Hall)
Green is not litter tolerant. Based on his stint at Consumer Affairs, if a cop sees someone throw garbage on the sidewalk, Green will want immediate action. The cop will run over, right past the litterer, and write the nearest business a $500 ticket for having a dirty sidewalk.
>>>The cop will run over, right past the litterer, and
write the nearest business a $500 ticket for having a dirty sidewalk. <<
Actually, if the sidewalks get privatized, ie. bought and owned by the businesses facing them, the sidewalks would be cleaner, since it would behoove those businesses to keep them clean...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think Green would be more likely to support a city takeover of the building.
There is already a law on the books that requires businesses to keep the sidewalk in front of their propery clean, and promises fines. Look for a white sticker in the window with inspection times.
-Hank
>> P.S., I also believe that when commuters see station cleaners it probably gives some people (slobs) an excuse to throw things on the floor since they think someone will come along behind them and pick it up (like station cleaners are their personal maids or something).
I think you're right. A few years ago, Central Park experimented with actually reducing the number of trash cans inside the park, and bigger baskets at the gates, to give people the idea they shouldn't bring garbage in with them--a noble experiment in inculcating civic virtue. Didn't work, of course.
The fact of the matter is that such ratings and comparrisons are highly subjective - hence unreliable. Unless you can quantitatively and qualitatively measure the cleanliness, what have you really got. Your data is immediately skewed toward your expectations of what you will find. Then, unless you are going to compare trains on different lines at different times and at various locations away from where the cars are cleaned (terminals), our data will be more skewed.
I think Mr. Rushinoff needs to start collecting stamps
Actually, I think that these ratings can be made fairly. Dirt is something you can quanitify. I don't know if the Straphangers are good at it.
However, when I look at their results, I immediately wonder about their statistics. The ratings for various trains jump around way too much from year to year. I would guess they are not looking into nearly enough trains. (And I wonder if they publish their raw numbers, or just summarize results).
The straphangers are annoying. But having these groups around does help keep the pressure on governmental orgs. to keep doing a good job. After they issue their report, the press will keep on the story for a little while. Of course they are self-serving - so is every organization. That does not mean they are not useful.
BTW, they claim NOT to be looking at litter - but at the level of dirt and grime on the car...
I have a standard response to people like Chris R., who believe that the mayor has done such a good job in NYC: Hitler created jobs, and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Just be glad you don't drive - Mayor Rude-y and his jackbooted thugs will find a way to divest you of it.
Divest you of your CAR, I meant. And if indeed you do drive, just wait for it. It'll happen sooner or later.
"Divest you of your CAR, I meant. And if indeed you do drive, just wait for it. It'll happen sooner or later."
But getting rid of cars would sound to some people like a good reason to vote FOR Guiliani. (^:
[Divest you of your CAR, I meant. And if indeed you do drive, just wait for it. It'll happen sooner or later.]
Actually, it won't happen unless you're a schmuck. Cars now can be confiscated from drunk drivers. My only comment is, tough s***. The new program, confiscating cars from people convicted of reckless driving, is another idea that's way overdue. Too many people drive without the slightest regard for their safety or the safety of others. Now, if they drive really badly, they'll have to pay the price. Don't expect any sympathy from me.
Ah, but did you see the piece in one of yesterday's papers (the "News", I think) where a man was found NOT guilty of DWI in criminal court, but can't get his wheels back until he is tried in civil court? That is the problem. In America we have moved from "innocent until proven guilty", to "guilty unless proven otherwise (and we'll make damn sure that doesn't happen)". And "reckless driving" can easily be mal-interpreted by cops with attitudes.
Meanwhile, here in Baltimore we have the case of the son of a baking magnate, who was driving drunk at high speed. His girlfriend was killed in the inevitable accident; he at first told police that there was no one else in the car, then insisted that she had been driving. He also gave three different false names to emergency room personnel. The man was convicted of DWI, and served time. But he's still driving! He's managed to get his license revocation hearing postponed numerous times. (There was to be a hearing today...postponed, of course, by snow.)
Now, if this creep was in NYC do you think he would lose his car? I don't think so, simply because of his status.
I believe that drunken and dangerous drivers should be pulled off the road permanently...but ONLY after they have their day in court. And no exceptions for the rich and powerful.
[Ah, but did you see the piece in one of yesterday's papers (the "News", I think) where a man was found NOT guilty of DWI in
criminal court, but can't get his wheels back until he is tried in civil court? That is the problem. In America we have moved from
"innocent until proven guilty", to "guilty unless proven otherwise (and we'll make damn sure that doesn't happen)". And "reckless driving" can easily be mal-interpreted by cops with attitudes.]
Yeah, I read that piece. What's most significant is that the driver was charged with DWI - and had his $46,000 Expedition confiscated - after he refused to take a Breathalizer test. He claimed that he hadn't been drinking at all, and if he was driving eratically it was because he was dead tired. Maybe so. But his refusal to take the Breathalizer test is what made a mess out of the whole situation. Had he taken it (assuming he's telling the truth about not drinking), he wouldn't have been charged with DWI and would still be tootling around in his Expedition. He claims that he refused the test because the cops had a "bad attitude." Right. I would imagine that the City's pursuing the forfeiture action in civil court, where there indeed is a lower burden of proof, because they believe that the driver was intoxicated but simply managed to beat the criminal charges. And you know what? That's exactly what I believe too.
Cars now can be confiscated from drunk drivers. My only comment is, tough s***. The new program, confiscating cars from people convicted of reckless driving, is another idea that's way overdue. Too many people drive without the slightest regard for their safety or the safety of others. Now, if they drive really badly, they'll have to pay the price. Don't expect any sympathy from me.
A major problem with these confiscations is that the punishment often exceeds the crime and is also administered unequally. Justice should be EQUAL. By confiscating ones car it means that the person driving a 10 year old clunker worth $200 in effect pays a $ 200 penalty for his "crime". OTOH a person driving a $25000 car has now suffered a $25000 loss for the same offense. A person renting or leasing a car loses nothing because the car goes back to the lessor. Also it places the burden on the individual to recover his property. This precludes any middle income person from going to court - Only those who can afford to hire a lawyer at $300+ per hour can ever expect justice. I don't think you can get a gov't appointed lawyer to help you get your property back.
The new program of confiscating cars from "reckless" drivers is very troubling. I could understand it if it were applied to repeat offenders, but what constitutes "reckless" driving is very subjective. The police officer who issues the ticket has now become judge, jury, and executioner. OTOH confiscating one's car after two or three convictions could, and perhaps should, be the punishment imposed by a court.
Relevance to transit -- what else can you take when you lose your car?
www.bmt-lines.com
The issue may soon be moot. North Carolina has a similar law involving drunk drivers that is currently being tested in the courts. It has been struck down by the NC Supreme Court in a near-unanimous decision (one dissent, IIRC) but the state has chosen to appeal to the US Supreme Court where most observers expect it to either be denied a hearing, thereby upholding the NC Supreme Court's decision, or to be decided in favor of the plaintiff, which would have much the same effect. The sale of the vehicles, incidentally, was to have benefitted the school systems, but has actually ended up costing them money.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't agree that it is the punishment does not fit the crime when vehicles are worth different amounts. What is unfair is fines that are a horrible burden to the poor, a modest charge for getting away with things for the rich.
I'd like to see anyone convicted of a felony (including a white collar one) lose EVERYTHING, down to the proverbial barrel for clothing. Now THAT is equality -- every felon is equal, and worse off than every non-felon.
A conservative friend of mine was holding forth on the virtues of the death penalty once. I said that while I didn't agree with killing criminals, I did agree with taking all their worldly goods. He became very upset, and started talking about the rights of criminals like a flaming liberal. People came to this country to secure rights to property, he said (right to life?)
What is a conservative? A person who is in favor of execution for street crimes, but against financial penalties for white collar crimes (or street crimes, in this case).
a conservative is against rail transit BUT FOR CUTTING OFF FOOD STAMPS WELFARE UNEMPLOYMENT
S.S.I. AND THE MINIMUM WAGE AN AFFORDABLE LIVING WAGE !!! thats a conservative !
You are right about the unequal penalties this program imposes. But even more troubling is the fact that it is not based on being convicted of drunk driving, reckless driving, etc. The forfeiture procedure is a "civil" action, which means that people can lose their vehicles even if they are acquitted of the charge which brought the forfeiture about. This is, in my opinion, a gross violation of constitutional guarantees of due process. Todays's (1/29) Daily News has a story about a man acquitted of drunk driving who is still trying to get his car back.
I'm trying to figure out what the hell does losing one's own car have to do with subways and trains.
And as for the constant references people have been making comparing the mayor to Hitler and Mussolini I sometimes pray that this city gets once again reduced to the crime-ridden filthy hell hole it was under Mr David Do-Nothing Dinkins.
Then MAYBE people will look back and be a little appreciative of the way the city has improved. Then again, it seems that it is the trouble makers who seem to be so upset with the "lousy" and "fascist" job that the mayor is doing.
You're being overly harsh on Dinkins. His Achilles' Heel was the Crown Heights situation.
Even he was able to redistribute the police force so that their was a better presence of them on the streets. That in itself is a major deterrant to crime.
Rudy G. has been doing a 'smoke n' mirrors' game by claiming HE and HE ALONE has reduced the crime rate. The reality is Rudy has mostly been riding on the coat-tails of a NATIONAL decline in crime (due to the relatively stable economy).
Doug aka BMTman
Dinkin's inept administraton has more than the Crown Heights riots blotting it's record. Guliani's emphasis on quality of life crimes, and his general belief that all laws should actually be enforced (unlike most mayors since Wagner) are the primary reason crime dropped so dramatically. He deserves all the accolades he recieves. His methods have been copied by most big city mayors, further proving that they work. The main reason for the crime drop BEFORE Guliani took office in 1994 was the general easement of the crack epidemic, started in the mid-1980's. In the mid 90's, the rise of "crank" (meth-amphetamine) and the continued proliferation of handguns should have lead to a similar spike in violent crime here in NYC and other big cities that the "crack" epidemic sparked (if you took the warnings of many criminal experts, who all predicted this dire situation back in the late 1980's). However, it didn't. Nobody seems to understand the significance of this fact. Agressive law enforcement may have saved this city hundreds, if not thousands of lives during Guliani's incredibly successful administration.
Then it would stand to reason that Clinton should not be given much credit for the state of the economy which the Democrats seem to saying is the reason for our prosperity. Let me tell you, New York in 1999 was in a hell of a lot better shape than it was in 1991 when I last visited. If Clinton gets credit for the economy (with a GOP Congress, I mightadd), then Guiliani should get credit for New York's improvement. Plus to equate Rudy with Hitler and Mussolini is the height of stupidity, and I hope that comment said about him was done in jest.
Please show me the locations of Guiliani's death camps. How many Jews has he murdered? If you disagree with Guiliani's politics, fine. It's a free country. But keep the incredibly inflammatory rhetoric to yourself. It only serves to make you look like a fool.
Jackass would be a better term for him. The very idea to comparing the mayor with those two baboons is ludicrous.
If you wanna put it that way...it was every bit as ridiculous as your little tirade on the Straphanger's Coalition that started this thread. Seems to me that conservatives love to call their opponents names, but when those opponents fight back they start crying! If you can't eat it, don't dish it.
And if you don't think Rude-y's administration smacks of fascism...well, why don't you ask Abner Louima, the Diallo family, or anyone who has unjustly lost their car in one of his DWI stings?
Back to the Subways!
Hey Randy: It's you liberals who call Conservatives Fascists and even Nazis. Just ask Congressmen Rangel from Manhattan, and your boy Gore the Bore has become expert at calling us extremists. To call Guiliani a Fascist is just plain dumb. Even you don't believe that. Now tell me what your favorite train is so we can get back on subject.
I remember the days back in 1995 when Democrats said that the newly Republican controlled congress wanted to kill elderly people and starve school children when they refused to increase the spending for both the school lunch program and Medicare as much as Democrats demanded. It's quite sad to see some people resort to these tactics when they see politicians of differing ideologies win popular support.
Rudy didn't invent cop brutality but he did enhance it by giving them virtually unlimited power and refusing to do anything about killer cops. The killer cop rate went up when he became mayor.Just because many of those who are victims of killer cops are people of color shows a terrible sign. Cops mistaking a wallet for a gun by cops of a elite force? Something sounds wrong. Democratic mayors in my mind seem more friendly.
A mayor isn't someone who can be friendly. We had friendly old Dinkins that did squat and allowed the city to remain crappy, all because he was friendly. Friendly to the Crown Heights rioters, friendly to squeegy men, to prostitutes, to drunk drivers. Guiliani isn't friendly to any of these. They don't deserve friends.
Lethal police shootings were actually higher under Kock/Dinkins than at any time during the Guliani adminstration. Yet another myth shattered.
Shootings were higher under Koch/Dinkins, but DEADLY fire from Police IS higher under Rudy. Yet again another myth scattered :-)
With cops now armed with semi-automatic 9mm handguns, it's not suprising to see that police shootings will be much more deadly. But how does this reflect on our mayor?
The way New York City is, with it's high crime areas, special interest groups and others looking to acquire either money and/or power, you need to remember Leo Durocher's comment about baseball teams -- "Nice guys finish last" when applying it to the mayorality.
LaGuardia was a mean SOB when he had to be, and most people consider him the most successful mayor New York had this century. Mayors that try to be nice guys -- Lindsey, Dinkins -- tend to get pushed around by New York City's hardball power brokers. Niceness is seen as a sign of weakness to them, which is like blood to a shark.
With all the conflicting interests in New York, any mayor who is going to be successful, whether it's Guiliani or some future Democrat, has to be a bit of a jerk. Koch had his most successful term in the late 70s, when he was going into meetings and calling people who didn't agree with him "Dummies", and doing things that ticked some of the special interests off. Eventually, that slash and burn technique wears on people, which is why Koch and LaGuiarda both had unsuccessful third terms and why Rudy is probably lucky term limits or this fall's Senate election is going to get him out of City Hall after just seven or eight years.
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
Guliani would probably win in a landslide if he could run again in 2001. Unfortunaty, he's done just about everything a mayor has the power to do to improve the city.
Nope not after Diallo and Luima. I don't think that New Yorkers will vote for him. He can still make the cops behavior better.
[Would Giuliani be elected in 2001 if he could run]
[Nope not after Diallo and Luima. I don't think that New Yorkers will vote for him. He can still make the cops behavior better.]
Neither incident would hurt his chances significantly. Most of the people who are angry about the incidents wouldn't have voted for him anyhow.
Wrong. A good proportion of the Caribbean community voted for Guiliani the first time around. Jamacians and Haitians, tend to be more conservative than most other "minority" communities. For instance, they have very strong ideas on "law and order" issues in particular.
Howeve, after those incidents -- and the way Rudy disrespected those communities -- he WON'T likely get there votes a second time around.
Doug aka BMTman
Rudy has done nothing to disrespect these communities and can count on their future support. About the only West Indian votes he'd have lost would be taxi drivers and street vendors, which didn't vote for him in 97 anyway.
He did disrespect them when he sided wholeheartedly with the cops during the Louima incident. Rudy will always give the cops the benefit of the doubt even when the evidence suggests serious wrong-doing.
That was a big mistake.
There is, and still is no evidence that the cops commited any wrongdoing during the Diallo shooting. Since neither you nor I was present at the time, we should wait for the trial to answer those questions. As for the Louima incident, Guiliani stated from the very moment that it went public that if the allegations were true, the cops should go to jail. He did state that nobody should rush to judgement and that we should wait until all facts become clear before actions are taken. Well, 12 people found that Justin Volpe did indeed do something awful to Mr. Louima, and he will rightfully rot in prison for a long time. Let's wait and let the system deal with the Diallo case.
Let's not go back to the wonderful pro-criminal Dinkins administration, who not only blasted a police officer for killing an "unarmed citizen" named Kiko Garcia, and had the city pay for his funeral, only to realize later that the above mentioned "unarmed citizen" was a know drug dealer, that the "witnesses" to his shooting were business associates and family members of Garcia's, and that their was an audio tape conclusively proving that Garcia attempted to grab the officers gun and that Garcia was shot during a fierce struggle.
BTW, according to WNBC, there is video-taped evidence, plus witness statements backing up the assertions by all 4 cops charged with killing Diallo that the vestibule light in the building he was shot in was not on the night of the shooting, and that the EMS paramedics responding to the case needed a flashlight to do their work.
See why it's stupid to assume things without having all the facts known?
Rudy is forever wrong. thats why he is a crappy mayor.
That's the most eloquent thing I ever heard!
Rudy is a great mayor, better than those fools we had before. New York has been vastly improved because of his administration. The Council remains a circus of dumb chimps.
[Rudy is a great mayor, better than those fools we had before. New York has been vastly improved because of his administration. The Council remains a circus of dumb chimps.]
You should take back your comment on the City Council. It was highly insulting to chimpanzees.
Ed Koch was the best mayor the city ever had.
Ed Koch in his first two terms certainly was a better Mayor than Rudy.
(Koch was a better Mayor than Giuliani)
Depends on what you care about.
Under Koch, there was no attempt to make city workers work more efficiently. Unions cashed in, city employment went up, and little additional work got done. Giuliani gets hassles about the police, but police shooting incidents etc. were much, much higher under Koch (and Dinkins). The city is much safer today, and I believe Rudy gets some of the credit. And welfare fraud is down, since people actually have to show up. Some of this is the environment people operate it, but that is always true.
Rudy has put less money into transportation, education and parks, and has done less to accomodate physical development in general. From the point of view of City Planning, Koch was better, and Rudy has been a big disappointment. The reporters hassling Rudy about the lack of a physical legacy have half a point.
That's why term limits are good. Every Mayor is good and bad in different ways. After two terms, they are about done with the good stuff, and you end up going to far in the same direction. Koch's third term stunk. Cuomos third term stunk. Rudy's third term would also stink. Would ANYONE want Clinton for another four years?
I don't want Clinton even for another day.. Did I ever tell about the time I had this dream of being a motorman on the Sea Beach and I saw someone in the tunnel that I knew to be ah ah, well, just forget the thought.
Care to explain this? Crime went up, taxes went up, and corruption was rampant. Koch did put a halt to the harmful fiscal practices that triggered the crisis of 75. However, nothing he did can even be compared to Guiliani's accomplishments.
You can hate the man, but don't deny what he's achieved. NYC is so much better today then when he first took office on 1/1/94 that it's almost like 2 different cities.
Ed Koch was a mediocre mayor at best. Strongly supported by the Democratic machine, he managed to be repeatedly re-elected despite numerous scandals in his administration. Lest we forget, his main support came from the unions who's leaders could do 'business' with this mayor. Lest we also forget, he was extremely disliked in the minority comunity. While mayor Koch has re-invented himself via WABC and The Post, there are those like Les Payne who do not forgive and forget. I must say that when he was in office, I liked him but because of his partisan anti Gulliani stands on current issues, I find him a typical two-faced hypocritical weasel.
Koch is an egomaniac. He MUST have people pay homage to his opinions. When supporting Guliani served that purpose, he endorsed him. When doing the opposite served that purpose, he switched sides.
Also Koch loved the fact that some people called him "The Best Mayor New York Ever Had" (actually, since most people had hard time remembering back past Bob Wagner's term, it was "The Best Mayor New York Has Ever Had Since Local Television News Began," but that's better than nothing), and is obviously ticked off that Guiliani has drawn more national praise than he did for improvements in the city.
Koch did do a good job with Felix Royatan in bringing the city's image back up from the bankrupcy disaster (and blackout, and Son of Sam) of 1975-77, but his term started falling apart with the Donald Manes parking violation thing. Rudy's problem could be the current Williamsburg building inspection probe, especially if his top aide Bruce Titelbaum gets implacated.
Pure poppycock. Guiliani's accomplishments dwarf those of Koch. Koch's image has been unfairly inflated becuase he was so much better than the incompetant Abe Beame.
No matter who wins in the upcoming contest of The Combover vs. The Smartest Woman of All Time, there are going to be a lot of people pissed enough about the result to want to move out of state...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Most rank and file cops don't like Rudy either. He stabbed them in the back after they made him look good (reduction in crime). The NYPD has a right to be pissed with Emperor Rudy.
Doug aka BMTman
You're helping prove my point here. There are so many groups you can piss off in New York, no mayor has been able to survive a third term because they've alienated too many people.
A strong Democratic mayor like Koch probably has a bit of an advantage over a Republican like Guiliani, because New York is so heavily Democratic. If there weren't term limits and Rudy could run again in 2001, he'd probably have troble against someone like Hevesi, who wouldn't scare the swing voters who fear a return to the old crime levels once a new mayor arrives. But if he was running against Mark Green it would be Messinger II, though with a slightly closer vote.
I think he would win, too. It's just that after eight years it's hard for any politician to re-invent themselves, and come up with new major initiatives to improve the city in a third term. Plus, even the most successful mayors seem to build up enough enemies by then that they're taking hits, justified or not, from a bunch of different directions and their flaws start to overshadow their accomplishments in the minds of a majority of people.
The cop abuse that taken place over his eight years will stain him.
The major of this city are liberals. I don't know how they could elect a republican mayor. The major of the city disapproves of him. Lets say that the conservative is mostly white and the rest are minorities.
That about 30%. He needs 50% to win.
A good portion of "minorities" will vote for a non-minority candidate. History bares this out.
Here's a pet peeve: New York City's "minorities" ARE the majority. I don't know why people refer to Blacks, Hispanics and Asians in the city as minorities? The white (non-Jewish population) is actually the "minorities".
Doug aka BMTman
According to the 1990 census, the population of NYC is 53% white. Considering the fact that minorities tend to have a lower voter turnout in most elections, their electoral powere isn't as big as you'd imagine.
That was TEN years ago. And as we all know Census counts can be grossly inaccurate, particularly undercounted in black and hispanic communities.
It will be interesting to see what the Census will show for Y2K.
First of all, the 52% has been adjusted to reflect whatever "undercount" you refer too, as per a lawsuit filed by some immigrant's right's advocacy group a few years back. Second, I'd actually expect to see the proportion of white people rise with the new census, taking into account the increased rate in which African American famalies are moving to the suburbs and the large influx of Caucasian immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Guiliani's successful war on crime and quality of life issues may have also eased the "white flight" epidemic that's plagued this city since the mid 60's.
Furthermore, those who do not participate in the Census surely will not bother to vote
As a Californian but a native New Yorker I come up with an observation that may or may not be accurate, but it is my gut feeling. I think New York City is now a great place to live IF-----you are wealthy or comfortable to enjoy what the city has to offer. On the other hand, if you are poor, or just making ends meet, it is a hell of a poor place to raise a family and just as bad a place to exist. Again, it is just my impression after visiting New York twice in the past 10 years, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm right on this one. Am I off the mark?
If your poor, then everywhere pretty much sucks to live, and raise a family. New York might even be a little better with the state's liberal welfare benefits.
Oh geez, here we go again blaming everything on liberals. Liberals don't have a monopoly on society's ills, ya know.
The greediest multi-millionaires (or the top 10 percent of Americas wealthest) are certainly not liberals. They may throw some money away to "aid the poor", but by and large they only lend a hand as a way to get a nice tax writeoff.
So don't slam liberalism for every ill in the world because conservatives have just as many!
Doug aka BMTman
Nobody said liberals caused all the world's ills. Only about 80% of them :)
[As a Californian but a native New Yorker I come up with an observation that may or may not be accurate, but it is my gut feeling. I think New York City is now a great place to live IF-----you are
wealthy or comfortable to enjoy what the city has to offer. On the other hand, if you are poor, or just making ends meet, it is a hell of a poor place to raise a family and just as bad a place to exist.]
I suppose that's true in general. But note, however, that the City's excellent transit system means that many families can manage fine without cars - given the high cost of cars and their related expenses, that can mean big savings.
Unless you live in Staten Island, where you're held hostage by the TBTA, forced to pay $7 toll just to travel to another part of the city, and have NO direct rail link with any other part of the city.
[But note, however, that the City's excellent transit system means that many families can manage fine without cars - given the high cost of cars and their related expenses, that can mean big savings. ]
However, you also have to take into account that NYC has the most expensive housing / parking in the country. That tends to cancel out any savings you might get from living without a car.
(New York has the most expensive housing)
May I introduce you to the four other boroughs, Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island?
The affluent have caught on the appeal of Brooklyn's pre-WWI Brownstones. Therefore, for high quality, Manhattan style living, I recommend the 1920 to 1950 grand apartments on the Grand Boulevard and Concourse, especially with the crime rate down. I'll bet you can find a fomrer luxury apartment for under $1,000. And the Concourse line is right downstairs. Moreover, the area is coming back so strong that a private developer has proposed renovating the big theater up by Fordham Road as a primo Latin Music venue. If he pulls if off, I might take the long ride myself to see a show.
Plenty of nice places if you aren't welfare poor, and aren't fixated on 212.
((New York has the most expensive housing)
May I introduce you to the four other boroughs, Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island? )
May I introduce to you the rest of the country. In the neighborhood where my mother lives in Philly, you could rent a 3 bedroom row home built in the 1920s with some nice art deco touches for under $700/month, you could also buy it for about $50,000. It's a 10 minute walk to Northeast Philly's largest transit hub for bus and el access.
The closest equivalent in NY (el included) would be Astoria in terms of home type and ethnic makeup. But you couldn't touch a similar home in Astoria for that money.
Yesterday the Times had an article on how 1 bedroom apts in the Bronx are almost impossible to find for under $700/month. You could still get a 1 bedroom in Center City Philly for that much.
Yes, even the outer boroughs in NY are more expensive than most of the rest of the US. Which would, as I said, eat up much of the relative savings of going car-free. And btw, my family lived without a car in the Philly neighborhood mentioned above for over 20 years.
You post implies that I'm totally fixated on Manhattan. I would argue that your response implies you are fixated on the other four boroughs.
>>>Yesterday the Times had an article on how 1 bedroom apts in the Bronx are almost impossible to
find for under $700/month. You could still get a 1 bedroom in Center City Philly for that much. <<<
Wages are lower outside NYC, so the lower rents are relative.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Housing prices are higher, but so are incomes)
That's right. In the 1990 census, the share of income that NYC residents spent on rent was just about at the national average, with both rents and incomes higher here. I'd expect the same to be true today.
Of course, you have a rent regulation system in NYC that holds down rents for long time residents (and others who know how to work the rules) while creating a shortage and high rents for new residents. Screw the young/new/immigrant to subsidise Archie Bunkers is a New York Motto. No wonder Francis is so ticked off.
Home sale prices are another story. In the long run, there has to be some relationship between housing prices and incomes, just as there has to be some relationship between stock prices and earnings. But in the 1980s, and again today, NY area housing prices went through a buying frenzy that pushed them to stupid heights. We aren't nearly as out of control relative to incomes as we were in 1987 on a regional basis, but in some markets there is a little irrational exuberance in my view.
BTW, Philly is a bad example, because it is being de-populated, and is therefore under-priced. If college educated people ever decided to add Philly to the VERY short list of older cities they are willing to live in, housing prices there could rise considerably.
[BTW, Philly is a bad example, because it is being de-populated, and is therefore under-priced. If college educated people ever decided to add Philly to the VERY short list of older cities they are willing to live in, housing prices there could rise considerably. ]
Guess what, college educated people have added (at least) Center City Philly to thier list of "older cities they are willing to live in." That's why the rental market there has less than 1% vacancy - sound familiar? Housing prices have skyrocketed since I left. The 1000+ sq. ft. 2 bedroom I rented in '97 for $650/month now rents for twice that. 100% increase in 4 years - that's exactly what has happened in Manhattan. And yes, the border neighborhoods in philly are seeing spill-over from that. Many friends of mine in philly have been pushed out of Center city because of high rents. I know a lot of people who live in Queen's Village, South Philly, Northern Liberties and West Philly. These neighborhoods used to be considered dangerous, now they're considered affordable.
Center City is actually more expensive now that NW DC is. I used to think Dupont Circle was expensive, it's now quite reasonable compared to Philly.
Despite the relative increase, Philly is still way cheaper than NY. I know several people who work in Manhattan but live in philly. And with good transit access in both cities, their commutes are shorter than many who live in CT or Long Island.
[Home sale prices are another story. In the long run, there has to be some relationship between housing prices and incomes, just as there has to be some relationship between stock prices and earnings. But in the 1980s, and again today, NY area housing prices went through a buying frenzy that pushed them to stupid heights. We aren't nearly as out of control relative to incomes as we were in 1987 on a regional basis, but in some markets there is a little irrational exuberance in my view.]
Supply and demand imbalances play a big part in the New York metropolitan area's current housing-price hyperinflation. While demand has increased, it hasn't done so dramatically - population growth, the leading "driver" of housing demand, is at a relatively low rate compared to most other parts of the country. What is a bigger factor behind the area's major price increases is a simple lack of inventory. Compared to the 1980s, indeed to most time periods, there simply aren't many houses for sale. You can see that for yourself by driving through almost any residential neighborhood and counting the "For Sale" signs. Don't expect to see too many.
This lack of inventory stems in large part from the impracticality of large-scale new construction on account of space constraints. Most of the NYC metro area has reached the point at which large tracts of developable land have gotten scarce and expensive. Smaller parcels for infill-type development may be available, if not plentiful, but you'll have a very hard time finding tracts of 100+ acres that are suitable for whole subdivisions. And most of the larger tracts you will find are located far from the city, in many cases beyond reasonable commuting distance. Most other major metropolitan areas haven't yet reached this saturation stage, though some are coming increasingly close.
I agree with your analysis. Not everyone can live in one place, and if lots of people try to, the price will be bid up where some cannot afford it.
We argue with the homeless adovocates all the time. I am also homeless as a resident of Gramercy Park, because I can't afford to live there, but I have a house in Brooklyn. The only truly homeless are those with such severe physical or mental handicaps, or social and substance abuse problems, that they cannot afford the minimum rent needed for any housing.
"Two hours of pushing broom buys an eight by ten four bit room." Outside NYC, that room is probably still there, if the building hasn't been abandoned and fallen down.
["Two hours of pushing broom buys an eight by ten four bit room." Outside NYC, that room is probably still there, if the building hasn't been abandoned and fallen down.]
Roger Miller wrote another lyric that's relevant to the question of why there's a shortage of affordable housing in the NY metro area. It's the first line (IIRC) in _King of the Road_, namely, "Trailer, for sale or rent." Trailers, or mobile homes if you want to be p.c., are a big source of lower-cost housing in many parts of the country. They may not be luxurious or roomy, and they have a strange attraction for tornados, but trailers do provide decent housing for millions of people nationwide. Yet in the NY metro area, trailers are as scarce as hen's teeth. Just the idea of opening a trailer camp will bring out the NIMBYs like no transit or highway project ever did. To the average area resident, a leaky toxic-waste dump would be a more desirable neighbor.
They (Mobile Homes) are not very livable, are prone to water pipe freezeups are cheaply built and can burn up, immolating everyone inside in minutes. regardless what the manufactured housing
Mobile homes are not very livable, they are cheaply constructed, drafty, prone to water pipe freeze up, ugly, and regardless what the manufactured housing (The real PC term for trailers) industry says, they are a fire/death trap that can burn completely down in minutes,immolating everyone inside.
But they're a lot better than living in a tent or a tiny, rundown, overpriced apartment. And today they're a lot better than they used to be when I lived in one. Modular housing - built in sections and trucked in - is another alternative, more expensive than mobile homes but still cheaper than site-built. Where we live in North Carolina there are lots of both; a few months after Hurricane Fran (1996) I visited a friend and his family in their new house that they had had built on the site of their 100+ year old farmhouse that had been destroyed by the storm. Since I hadn't been around to see it built (I was up in New Jersey working) I assumed that it was site-built - after all, it was a 2200 square foot, two story pseudo-Victorian. WRONG! It was modular, erected and finished off in less than three weeks. It met all the codes that a site-built house would and cost about 15% less than a comparable site-built house. He showed me photographs of the delivery; it was brought to the site in five pieces, two large rectangular sections for the first floor, two irregular sections for the second that were lifted into place with a crane, and the crown of the steeply-pitched roof, also lifted into place with a crane. Everything fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Modular wiring panels, concealed in the backs of closets, joined the wiring from section to section. The plumbing was connected using conventional techniques. The roofing was done conventionally after the house was assembled, as was the carpet installation and final painting (everything, inside and out, was in primer when it was delivered). The only evidence of its modular construction is the modular wiring panel and, in the basement (yes, this one has a basement, a rarity for eastern North Carolina), the two steel I-beams that were necessary to help support the sections in transport.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No one has figured out how to build manufactured housing to NYC densities. The late 1980s Shorehaven (Bronx) and Arverne (Queens) plans featured four story attached double duplexes trucked in, but they were done in by the crash. It's hard just to get something that big down a NYC street. And of course, outside of Staten Island all attached housing in NYC must be fully fireproof (ie. masonary, steel frame, concrete plank). The land is too valuabe for detached houses.
As for trailer parks, there are two "uses" which are not allowed at all in NYC. One is "adult physical culture establishments" -- ie. Plato's Cave. The other is trailer parks. Trailer parks were allowed in industrial zones until someone actually opened one, then they were banned. There remains one trailer camp on Staten Island.
As for RVs for campers, that's my secret idea for one of New York's great unused spaces -- Floyd Bennett Field. Not only can't Rednecks afford to live here, they can't even afford to visit. Doesn't make them like our city very much. But if you could park your RV in Floyd Bennet, and have the National Park Service run buses to Manhattan and the beach at Riis Park, it would allow an entire additional group to visit the city. Who knows, maybe some of them would get cock and take the B41 to the IRT at the Junction.
The B41 doesn't run that far south. One would have to take the Q35 either to the Flatbush IRT or the Rock Park Terminal.
[As for trailer parks, there are two "uses" which are not allowed at all in NYC. One is "adult physical culture establishments" -- ie. Plato's Cave. The other is trailer parks.]
I daresay most homeowners would sooner have an "adult physical culture establishment" (now that's quite a euphemism) next door than a trailer camp.
[As for RVs for campers, that's my secret idea for one of New York's great unused spaces -- Floyd Bennett Field. Not only can't Rednecks afford to live here, they can't even afford to visit. Doesn't
make them like our city very much. But if you could park your RV in Floyd Bennet, and have the National Park Service run buses to Manhattan and the beach at Riis Park, it would allow an entire
additional group to visit the city.]
Er, does anyone really *want* a whole bunch of rednecks to visit??? I'd have thought that one John Rocker is quite enough.
Actually, RVs are not, by and large, a redneck type of thing. They are largely out of the redneck price range ... of course, one could say that a rusted 1988 Ford Escort with 175,000 miles and a blown head gasket is out of the redneck price range.
As far as I can tell, RVs seem to appeal mainly to people of retirement age.
Yeah - who else can afford them? Certainly not those of us working our tails off to put children through college! My neighbor here in NJ sold her fifth wheel trailer after her husband died in '98 and bought a new one on a stretched V-10 Ford van chassis - 27' I'm guessing. The sticker was almost 60 grand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re higher housing costs in NYC vs. other parts of the country]
[Wages are lower outside NYC, so the lower rents are relative.]
Contrary to common belief, NYC wage levels are *not* dramatically higher than elsewhere in the country. Two factors in particular create an impression that NYC salaries are sky-high. One factor is a concentration of extremely high-paying jobs in Manhattan, especially in the financial-services and media industries. What's often overlooked is that these jobs account for a relatively small percentage of the labor force. The city also has high pay levels in certain public-sector and union jobs, but once again they employ relatively modest numbers. The end result is that most NYC jobs do not pay much if at all more than their equivalents elsewhere.
"Wages are lower outside NYC, so the lower rents are relative."
Not for cops, NYC has the lowest paid cops than any other major US city, thanks to Rudy and his taking the PERB Law to a fixed court.
Good point.
Rudy is Mr. Law & Order, but he doesn't want to pay for it.
OK, where's the money gonna come from? How about the millions of $$$ the other municipal unions will demand if the cops get everything they want?
Man, I'm getting so sick and tired of city workers whining about how they are getting screwed. The city's coffers are not bottomless.
BTW, Nassau and Suffolk cops get higher pay because of their more affluent residents, and sky-high property taxes, which makes their pay affordable.
I couldn't care less where the money comes from. And I'm sorry if you're sick and tired!! I would like to be paid the going rate. I'm not just talking about Nassau and Suffolk. NYC pay is the lowest of any Police Dept of any major US city. That is why only about 5,000 people signed up for the last police test. Compare that to the motorman's test. NYC cops are required to have at least an associates degree and are professionals.
By the way, when the oil truck came to my house the other day and demanded $1.80 per gallon when I paid $.63 in the summer, I couldn't ask the man "wheres the money gonna come from?"
New Orleans cops make much less than NYC cops. And if you dont care where the mayor gets the money to support a big fat raise, then why should any of us care about them not being paid like suburban cops?
BTW, Nassau and Suffolk cops make well above the average law enforcement salary. You don't want the "going rate", you want to be the best paid. Understandable, but not feasible.
BTW, there are fewer Nassau County Cops pre-precinct area than there are in NYC (don't have the stats right in front of me, of course). So the money can be stread around better.
Ya know, this thread is like the Energizer Bunny -- it keeps going and going and going....
SPECIAL NOTE: How about you start your own NYCPolitics.com so these VERY OFF-TOPIC subjects can carry on w/o using up time and money on Dave Pirmann's nycsubways.org. Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTMan
What about uing the nyc.politics newsgroup?
This entire thread started as a discussion of the Straphangers Campaign, which is very much on topic. Since you yourself contributed many responses to this thread, you're as guilty as anyone else for forcing it off topic.
Besides, I find it impossible to resist correcting a factually incorrect post, even if it means going off topic.
Enough of this straphangers garbage already. Time to move on to some other controversial topic----like why the Sea Beach rules and all the rest of the trains are second placers.
He wants to pay for law and order, but by hiring more and more cops, not by paying a smaller force more. Bratton pointed this out some time ago.
The cost of New York City's police force, and its jail, as a share of the income of its residents, is double the national average. You can't say New Yorkers aren't being forced to sacrifice to pay for police. Police, debt service and pensions, and social services and Medicaid are the only categories of spending in which NYC spends more than average -- despite taxes that are nearly double the average.
This made sense when the crime rate is double, but the NYC crime rate is just average. But with the crime rate lower, the number of uniformed officers continues to soar. Its soaking up more money, not less.
If you had one officer in a car, except in the worst neighborhoods, and cut back on the hiring frezy, there would be plenty of money for raises. There are probably other things that can be done as well.
Also, sick leave abuse is way down for the officers, but still sky-high for non-uniformed staff in the police department. How about sending a cop around to make those bums show up for work, and use the manpower savings to fund higher raises for the cops.
[Also, sick leave abuse is way down for the officers, but still sky-high for non-uniformed staff in the police department. How about sending a cop around to make those bums show up for work, and use the manpower savings to fund higher raises for the cops.]
The TA does that all the time, so it's certainly a workable idea.
Nobody who moves to Manhattan even gets a 212 anymore.
The sale of "212" numbers is a thriving business today. Many long-time Manhattan residents are selling their numbers to new companies who want the "prestige" of a 212 area code.
[Here's a pet peeve: New York City's "minorities" ARE the majority. I don't know why people refer to Blacks, Hispanics and Asians in the city as minorities? The white (non-Jewish population) is actually the "minorities".]
This is a situation in which language hasn't kept up with the times. In addition to NYC, "minorities" are the majority in many cities throughout the country and at least two states (Hawaii, New Mexico, and maybe soon California). Yet there's no other term that really substitutes for minority. "People of color" is disgustingly p.c., while "non-white" just seems a bit coarse.
How about we stop referring to ethnicity and skin color and call everyone "Americans". Too radical a concept? I don't think so.
I agree. The term "people of color" to me is a racist, anti-white term that always is used to make Caucasians look bad. And any kind of bigotry, from whatever hole it originates from, is despicable.
As a white person, I despise being called an "Anglo-American". Anglo means English, and the only thing English about me is the language I speak. In fact, my Celtic Irish blood boils at being lumped in with the "British".
Judging by the lawsuits over college admissions to the Cal State University system at Berkeley and other campuses, Asians are now considered by some to be "white," at least in the eyes of the attorneys representing other minorities in the court cases. Go figure.
The only reason for them being thrown into the "White" catagory is because of the so called "Model Minority" stereotype. As suggested it is just that. A myth. But in the eyes of those whites in the addmissions department we are just as hard working as them which may not be true. It also pit asians against other minorites. Something I'm sure many whites want.
[The term "people of color" to me is a racist, anti-white term that always is used to make Caucasians look bad.]
What's interesting about "people of color" is that it seems to be used almost exclusively by whites. I wonder whether they are trying desparately to be p.c. (and looking like morons in the process), or actually are ashamed to be white. Maybe it's a mixture of both.
At any rate, I really wish there weren't so much racial pigeonholing in the United States. Everything seems to be race, race, and more race. It's getting so you can't fill out any kind of official form or participate in any sort of survey without indiciating your race. And what's particularly stupid about all this racial classification is that race in the United States is rapidly losing any connection to biology - even though race *is* supposed to be a biological term. Consider all the people who are of completely Caucasian appearance yet classify themselves as black based on some long-forgotten ancestor. Or consider the way that we've created an entirely new race, Hispanic, that encompasses people of vastly different appearances. I shudder to think of what's next.
I would loe to see how Tiger Woods responds to the "race" part of his US Census form.
BTW, on all legal documents that indicate you to acknowledge your race, you can decline to respond, and this is protected by law. I did this when I registered to vote, when i took the conductor's test in '93 and I have done this on every job application I've ever filled out.
(Census forms) The whole race idea on the census forms is driven by politicians. Why should polticians decide how people describe their background. It makes the data less convincing.
My proposed question:
"For many, but not all Americans, being part of a cultural group is an important part of their identity. This group can be based on physical features (ie. Black, White), the country or part of the United States where a person or their ancestors came from (Puerto Rican, Italian, Chinese, Texan, Southerner, New Yorker), language (Hispanic), religious affliation (Catholic, Baptist, Jew), gender, sexual orientation, or any other factor. Please indicate, in order of importance, any cultural groups (person 1 in household) belongs to. You do not have to answer this question"
1. ________________
2. ________________
3. ________________
With this question, the respondent, not the census bureau, decides what the categories are, or if the question is important at all. It would be tough to code, but far more interesting. The arguments around the dinner table, along with advertising by various interest groups (put Hispanic #1 and gay #2!) would probably boost the initial mailback rate by 10 percent. I'd certainly put subway rider on my form somewhere.
BTW, those of you living in NYC BETTER DAMN WELL MAIL BACK YOUR CENSUS QUESTIONAIRE! Those living outside NYC are welcome to blow if off, but be aware that someone will come to your house and bug the heck out of you.
I AM NOT GOING TO RESPOND TO THE CENCUS 2000 AT ALL !!!
WHAT I WILL NOT DO IS TO ANSWER THE CENCUS OR CO-OPERATE WITH THEM!!
WHAT I WILL DO IS TO TELL THEM NOTHING AT ALL !!!
WHEN THE FORMS ARIVE I WILL TELL THEM TO LEAVE US COMPLETELY 100% ALONE !!!
AND THAT WE ARE NOT PARTICIPATING AT ALL !! GO AWAY AND LEAVE US ALONE !!
I DONT CARE IF THEY CALL HE POLICE ON ME I WILL USE THE WATER HOSE TO
RUN OFF THE CENCUS ENUMERATORS IF THEY INSIST ON RINGING MY FRONT DOOR !
THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SENSELESS CENCUS 2000 IS LIKE FLIES NO MATTER HOW MUCH
YOU SWAT THEM AWAY THEY JUST KEEP ON COMING UNTIL YOU SPRAY THEM !!!!
IT IS NONE OF THE GOVERNMENTS BUSINESS FOR YOU TO BE FORCED TO GIVE UP
YOUR PRIVACY !!! AND THEY DONT EVEN PAY YOU ??? NO WAY !!!
AND THEN HOW THEY LIE TO US HERE IN LOS ANGELES !! WHAT RAIL TRANSIT FUNDS ??
(I won't answer the census)
Glad you are from L.A. Perhaps I can get an extra form somehow, and answer twice, diverting federal money from L.A. to Brooklyn. Yessir, that the tenant in my basement apartment, Mr. Willie formerly of L.A.
dream on !!! you aint going to get any federal money !!! EVEN IF YOU DO ALLOW YOUR PRIVACY
TO BE INVADED and......... I AM FROM NEW YORK !!! N. Y. !!!! hold your breath on the lie the cencus 2000 !!!
thats why intellegent informed folks know THE CENCUS IS A LIE !!!!
What privacy is being invaded, all they want to know is that you exist. You have a birth certificate and a social security number. Your incognitance is nonexistent. Why are you so concerned with privacy anyway? Do you have something to hide?
I heard one of the questions on the 2000 census is:How do you feel about railfan windows?
HEY MAN !!! jeffery rosen question to you DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE LEFT ALONE ?
mr cencus 2000 RAILFAN WINDOW EXPERT !!!! you ???? right ???? !!!!
(Do you have the right to be left alone).
Legally, if you fill out your form and send it back, you have the right to be left alone. The numbers get keyed into a system and added up with all your neighbors, and your form gets locked away for 75 years.
Because the census is required by law (like paying taxes), however, if you DO NOT send the form back census enumerators will come knocking on your door to ask you all those questions in person. I believe they are required to show up and demand entry EIGHT TIMES.
After that they go to "Last Resort" knocking on your neighbors doors and asking them about you to fill out the form theselves.
If you want to be left alone, fill out the form.
In addition, as a Very Last Resort, some enumerators will "curbstone": that is, they will stand outside at the curb and invent a family, based on a community-wide "average."
(Curbstoning)
Aha, there is someone else who recognizes the reality. For me this would be an accusation. Are you from the Bureau, and is this an admission?
Unfortunately, most curbstoning in NYC is not a last resort, and is not based on community averages. It's someone sitting in their living room and putting in one person households, while an immigrant family of five is the reality.
The Census Bureau screw us so much! The money we lose on the Medicaid formula alone could amount to $700 millon per year. Enough to build the Second Avenue subway and many other things.
What if you send it back but decline to answer one or more of the questions asked? Specifically, some people are urging that the question about race simply be left blank. I think that is a good idea, but I am wondering about the possible consequences.
(What if one or more questions is blank)?
I don't know the answer. It depends on whether or not they have the information they absolutely need. All I've ever heard about is sending it back vs. not sending it back.
This census is a war: the rest of the country and the state against us. It could determine whether we get enough money for significant mass transit improvments or not. If you don't fill out the form, you are with the enemy.
it is to the ADVANTAGE of minorities in particular to fill out census forms ESPECIALLY questions dealing with race. The more minorities that are counted, the more likely it is that elected officials will take minority concerns into account when setting policy agendas.
HEY MAN !!! jeffery rosen question to you DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE LEFT ALONE ?
mr cencus 2000 RAILFAN WINDOW EXPERT !!!! you ???? right ???? !!!!
(Do you have the right to be left alone).
Legally, if you fill out your form and send it back, you have the right to be left alone. The numbers get keyed into a system and added up with all your neighbors, and your form gets locked away for 75 years.
Because the census is required by law (like paying taxes), however, if you DO NOT send the form back census enumerators will come knocking on your door to ask you all those questions in person. I believe they are required to show up and demand entry EIGHT TIMES.
After that they go to "Last Resort" knocking on your neighbors doors and asking them about you to fill out the form theselves.
If you want to be left alone, fill out the form.
In addition, as a Very Last Resort, some enumerators will "curbstone": that is, they will stand outside at the curb and invent a family, based on a community-wide "average."
(Curbstoning)
Aha, there is someone else who recognizes the reality. For me this would be an accusation. Are you from the Bureau, and is this an admission?
Unfortunately, most curbstoning in NYC is not a last resort, and is not based on community averages. It's someone sitting in their living room and putting in one person households, while an immigrant family of five is the reality.
The Census Bureau screw us so much! The money we lose on the Medicaid formula alone could amount to $700 millon per year. Enough to build the Second Avenue subway and many other things.
What if you send it back but decline to answer one or more of the questions asked? Specifically, some people are urging that the question about race simply be left blank. I think that is a good idea, but I am wondering about the possible consequences.
(What if one or more questions is blank)?
I don't know the answer. It depends on whether or not they have the information they absolutely need. All I've ever heard about is sending it back vs. not sending it back.
This census is a war: the rest of the country and the state against us. It could determine whether we get enough money for significant mass transit improvments or not. If you don't fill out the form, you are with the enemy.
it is to the ADVANTAGE of minorities in particular to fill out census forms ESPECIALLY questions dealing with race. The more minorities that are counted, the more likely it is that elected officials will take minority concerns into account when setting policy agendas.
I AM NOT GOING TO RESPOND TO THE CENCUS 2000 AT ALL !!!
WHAT I WILL NOT DO IS TO ANSWER THE CENCUS OR CO-OPERATE WITH THEM!!
WHAT I WILL DO IS TO TELL THEM NOTHING AT ALL !!!
WHEN THE FORMS ARIVE I WILL TELL THEM TO LEAVE US COMPLETELY 100% ALONE !!!
AND THAT WE ARE NOT PARTICIPATING AT ALL !! GO AWAY AND LEAVE US ALONE !!
I DONT CARE IF THEY CALL HE POLICE ON ME I WILL USE THE WATER HOSE TO
RUN OFF THE CENCUS ENUMERATORS IF THEY INSIST ON RINGING MY FRONT DOOR !
THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SENSELESS CENCUS 2000 IS LIKE FLIES NO MATTER HOW MUCH
YOU SWAT THEM AWAY THEY JUST KEEP ON COMING UNTIL YOU SPRAY THEM !!!!
IT IS NONE OF THE GOVERNMENTS BUSINESS FOR YOU TO BE FORCED TO GIVE UP
YOUR PRIVACY !!! AND THEY DONT EVEN PAY YOU ??? NO WAY !!!
AND THEN HOW THEY LIE TO US HERE IN LOS ANGELES !! WHAT RAIL TRANSIT FUNDS ??
(I won't answer the census)
Glad you are from L.A. Perhaps I can get an extra form somehow, and answer twice, diverting federal money from L.A. to Brooklyn. Yessir, that the tenant in my basement apartment, Mr. Willie formerly of L.A.
dream on !!! you aint going to get any federal money !!! EVEN IF YOU DO ALLOW YOUR PRIVACY
TO BE INVADED and......... I AM FROM NEW YORK !!! N. Y. !!!! hold your breath on the lie the cencus 2000 !!!
thats why intellegent informed folks know THE CENCUS IS A LIE !!!!
What privacy is being invaded, all they want to know is that you exist. You have a birth certificate and a social security number. Your incognitance is nonexistent. Why are you so concerned with privacy anyway? Do you have something to hide?
I heard one of the questions on the 2000 census is:How do you feel about railfan windows?
HEY MAN !!! jeffery rosen question to you DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE LEFT ALONE ?
mr cencus 2000 RAILFAN WINDOW EXPERT !!!! you ???? right ???? !!!!
(Do you have the right to be left alone).
Legally, if you fill out your form and send it back, you have the right to be left alone. The numbers get keyed into a system and added up with all your neighbors, and your form gets locked away for 75 years.
Because the census is required by law (like paying taxes), however, if you DO NOT send the form back census enumerators will come knocking on your door to ask you all those questions in person. I believe they are required to show up and demand entry EIGHT TIMES.
After that they go to "Last Resort" knocking on your neighbors doors and asking them about you to fill out the form theselves.
If you want to be left alone, fill out the form.
In addition, as a Very Last Resort, some enumerators will "curbstone": that is, they will stand outside at the curb and invent a family, based on a community-wide "average."
(Curbstoning)
Aha, there is someone else who recognizes the reality. For me this would be an accusation. Are you from the Bureau, and is this an admission?
Unfortunately, most curbstoning in NYC is not a last resort, and is not based on community averages. It's someone sitting in their living room and putting in one person households, while an immigrant family of five is the reality.
The Census Bureau screw us so much! The money we lose on the Medicaid formula alone could amount to $700 millon per year. Enough to build the Second Avenue subway and many other things.
What if you send it back but decline to answer one or more of the questions asked? Specifically, some people are urging that the question about race simply be left blank. I think that is a good idea, but I am wondering about the possible consequences.
(What if one or more questions is blank)?
I don't know the answer. It depends on whether or not they have the information they absolutely need. All I've ever heard about is sending it back vs. not sending it back.
This census is a war: the rest of the country and the state against us. It could determine whether we get enough money for significant mass transit improvments or not. If you don't fill out the form, you are with the enemy.
it is to the ADVANTAGE of minorities in particular to fill out census forms ESPECIALLY questions dealing with race. The more minorities that are counted, the more likely it is that elected officials will take minority concerns into account when setting policy agendas.
HEY MAN !!! jeffery rosen question to you DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE LEFT ALONE ?
mr cencus 2000 RAILFAN WINDOW EXPERT !!!! you ???? right ???? !!!!
(Do you have the right to be left alone).
Legally, if you fill out your form and send it back, you have the right to be left alone. The numbers get keyed into a system and added up with all your neighbors, and your form gets locked away for 75 years.
Because the census is required by law (like paying taxes), however, if you DO NOT send the form back census enumerators will come knocking on your door to ask you all those questions in person. I believe they are required to show up and demand entry EIGHT TIMES.
After that they go to "Last Resort" knocking on your neighbors doors and asking them about you to fill out the form theselves.
If you want to be left alone, fill out the form.
In addition, as a Very Last Resort, some enumerators will "curbstone": that is, they will stand outside at the curb and invent a family, based on a community-wide "average."
(Curbstoning)
Aha, there is someone else who recognizes the reality. For me this would be an accusation. Are you from the Bureau, and is this an admission?
Unfortunately, most curbstoning in NYC is not a last resort, and is not based on community averages. It's someone sitting in their living room and putting in one person households, while an immigrant family of five is the reality.
The Census Bureau screw us so much! The money we lose on the Medicaid formula alone could amount to $700 millon per year. Enough to build the Second Avenue subway and many other things.
What if you send it back but decline to answer one or more of the questions asked? Specifically, some people are urging that the question about race simply be left blank. I think that is a good idea, but I am wondering about the possible consequences.
(What if one or more questions is blank)?
I don't know the answer. It depends on whether or not they have the information they absolutely need. All I've ever heard about is sending it back vs. not sending it back.
This census is a war: the rest of the country and the state against us. It could determine whether we get enough money for significant mass transit improvments or not. If you don't fill out the form, you are with the enemy.
it is to the ADVANTAGE of minorities in particular to fill out census forms ESPECIALLY questions dealing with race. The more minorities that are counted, the more likely it is that elected officials will take minority concerns into account when setting policy agendas.
Unfortunatly, there has been no increase of police brutality cases filed with the CCRB underin proportion to the number of arrests, under the Guliani administration. The myth of cops running wild under this mayor is just that, a myth.
Not necessarily. There are always going to be those who don't report brutality cases. Some of it is out of fear, and some of it is a lack of English-language skills.
True. However, there are an equal number of people who will file frivolous claims of police brutality merely because they didn't like getting arrested, or felt that some sort of "disrespect" was shown. It all balances out, IMHO.
Police brutality wasn't "invented" by Guliani, so he deserves none of the blame for their unfortunate situations. However, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of NYC residents who owe their lives to our mayor's crime fighting tactics over the past 6 years, based on the incredible drop in the murder rate.
It sucks to see a Republican achieve such success in the backyard of liberalism, huh?
Yeah, but Mr. Rudy isn't a bastion of "family values" (but nor is "Wild" Bill Clinton) as is always tooted by conservatives. Just ask his "invisible" wife, Donna Hanover.
Guliani has never positioned himself as a social conservative. In fact, his pro-choice, homosexual tolerant platform has actually put him more at risk from his own party members. Remember in 1993 when the NYS Conservative party felt forced to run their own candidate for mayor? (his name escapes me).
"I have a standard response to people like Chris R., who believe that the mayor has done such a good job in NYC: Hitler created jobs, and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Just be glad you don't drive - Mayor Rude-y and his jackbooted thugs will find a way to divest you of it."
SubTalk has reached a new low when someone compares a politician with whom one disagrees to a creature responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men, women, and children. Neither me nor Guiliani care for an apology for this slander. If you are capable of looking deep within your soul, however, you would come to the realization that you owe an apology to those millions of departed and living who suffered so greatly under Hitler, and whose experience you have decided to cheapen just so you could take a cheap shot at someone on the other side of the fence.
It's revealing that this sort of abuse comes from the side that claims itself to be tolerant and disdainful of labels. Revealing, but hardly surprising anymore.
Alan Glick
Louis Farrakhan has never advocated genocide or murder, either, but that hasn't stopped his detractors from likening him to Hitler as well. And I disgree vehemently with Farrakhan's outrageous comments about Jews. As long as there are political parties and ideologies, there will be name calling. And there will be no apologies from any one side until all sides agree to cease fire. This is a sad fact of life.
Back to the subways!
Hitler and Mussolini also never publically called for the eradiction of the Jews. Farrakhan would probably feel right at home in Nazi Germany, if only they didn't hate black people as well.
Farrakhan would prolly murder both of them, if given the chance. By the way, Screwy Louis has been far, far more critical and damning of young black thugs than he has been on any other racial group...but those parts of his speech never made the evening news.
True. He has been taking young black youth to task (long overdue IMHO) for "getting their house in order". Although I'm no Farrakan fan, he can do some things that are constructive.
Don't forget it was the Muslim community that cleaned up the Bushwick neighborhood. They scared the hell out of the lowlife drug dealers and street thugs to the point that even cops on the beat were grateful!
Doug aka BMTman
"Don't forget it was the Muslim community that cleaned up the Bushwick neighborhood. They scared the hell out of the lowlife drug dealers and street thugs to the point that even cops on the beat were grateful!"
Congratulations on a job well done. Of course if a white community tried that the ACLU would be jumping on them with cries of "vigilanties." Some people get all the breaks.
Alan Glick
Alan: You make a good point, but we have to give the devil his due. What Farrakan did was admirable and he should be praised for it. No matter what we think of a person, most everyone has the ability to do what's right for humanity.
Great. Now give Guiliani the same credit for cleaning up the rest of the city as the Muslims have in Bushwick.
The Muslims PHYSICALLY got involved. All you can say about Rudy is that he got the "cowboy" brigade (ie STREET CRIMES UNIT) into the act (and that was long after the Bushwick cleanup was already underway from the NOI).
The NOI did most of their cleanup of Buswick ten years ago.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, and what a wonderful job they did. I wonder what the NOI would do if my lily-white butt was walking down Knickerbocker Ave. Personally, even a black man is safer around white cops then NOI thugs.
And that's what they are. Evil, racist, violent thugs.
[Yes, and what a wonderful job they did. I wonder what the NOI would do if my lily-white butt was walking down Knickerbocker Ave. ]
Today, you'd be fine on Knickerbocker Ave. during the day. At night might be questionable (for anyone). That's true about most neighborhoods, though.
[And that's what they are. Evil, racist, violent thugs.]
That's quite an ignorant statement.
At any time, a white guy like me in a black neighborhood would get the "evil eye" stare from NOI thugs. I've even seen it on subways that cut through black neighborhoods.
I'm starting to worry about you. You villify cops, yet defend the Nation of Islam. You're logic is twisted beyond my recognition.
When did I villify cops in general. Sure there are some bad apples, but that applies in any profession.
But for you to lump all members of the NOI is wrong, as not all of them are some kind of rabid racist thugs that you make them out to be.
Your preception of being stared at is probably worse than the reality.
Maybe you should get to know them before you spout generalities?
Doug aka BMTman
You're right. Whenever I see a WWII documentary, I won't jump to conclusions when I witness someone in a Nazi uniform. Maybe that person liked Jews.
Get real.
You need to do something better with your time than dwell on non-transit topics.
Hey Doug and Chris,
I'm willing to bet that if you guys met in person before getting involved in this particular thread you'd become great friends. I also have strong opinions on a lot of issues. I realize that sometimes reading posts instead of talking face to face with another individual can sometimes go from impersonal to hostile. I think the bigger man will be the first one to step forward with a token of friendly peace.
Why don't we discuss something that we all agree on? Like for instance why The Brighton Line kicks the sea beach line's butt (notice small case letters).
Alan (The Impartial) Glick
If you're worried about a Doug and Chris feud, I'd start watching your back if you are going to insult my Sea Beach. Your breyetonn bitch is a dog compared to my stately lady, so if you want to keep being my friend don;t get me involved in a new feud. But as far as Chris and Doug are concerned, be at the Stillwell Tour and I'll butt your heads together. Now cut out this nonsense and stop fighting.
The Sea Beach is a HOle. The Brighton runs express service, includes every type of route (subway, cut, embankment, el). It's also a lot faster than you're useless Sea Beach.
Hey, Alan.
I REALLY LIKE your idea ;-)
Agreed. Let's bury the hatchet (into the Sea Beach roadbed).
Doug aka BMTman
Great,
Now if only I could take my own advice. Maybe you've inspired me to do exactly that.
Alan Glick
Aw, c'mon Alan, it was just starting to ge good!!!
Niagra Falls!!!
Alan Glick
Aw, c'mon Alan, it was just starting to get good!!!
[I'm starting to worry about you.]
Why are you worried about me? Are you getting a little perturbed over my postings?
[You villify cops, yet defend the Nation of Islam. You're logic is twisted beyond my recognition.]
See my other post directed to you on this. BTW, if my logic is 'twisted beyond your recognition', perhaps you should get out from behind your PC and visit the real world for a change. Fresh air helps to clear your thinking.
Doug aka BMTman
OK, the cooling down point has been reached. Neutral corners, please ....
Like the old saying goes, 'Can't take the heat.......get out of the kitchen'. ;-)
I can take the heat, but I'm afraid we'll burn down the house ...
With the census project, I had to go all around the city. No one bothered me at all, anywhere.
Guiliani has done a great job, no doubt about it. So show your appreciation and elect him to the US Senate and send hilarious Hillary back to Arkansas, or Illinois, or Washington D.C, or anywhere else she wants to go. I have a place in mind if she can't make up hers.
Excuse me, but I've never heard him once refer to black youthful offenders as "gutter niggers", or anything close to what he's called Jews. And Hitler hated criminals too.
He also didn't use the term "gutter kikes", either. (Believe me, I hated to type that!) His quote was that Judaism was a "gutter religion", which of course is outrageous and dead wrong.
I also remember the Rev. Jerry Falwell, at the height of his influence and power, saying that "God does not hear the prayers of Jews." Falwell didn't catch a fraction of the heat that Farrakhan rightfully did. And how about these Southern Baptists running around trying to "convert" members of other religions they consider "inferior"? Real nice, folks.
It's time to listen to some of Farrakhan's speeches (or anyone else's, for that matter) in their entirety, instead of just the inflammatory "sound bites" fed by the media. So, has the MTA decided what kind of service the upper west side will have while the C is out? Back to the subways!
"He also didn't use the term "gutter kikes","
He has said much that is anti-white; anti-semitic; anti-etc.,etc.,etc.
"I also remember the Rev. Jerry Falwell, at the height of his influence and power, saying that "God does not hear the prayers of Jews"
All believers believe that only their religion is the one and only true religion.
"And how about these Southern Baptists running around trying to "convert" members of other religions they consider "inferior"? "
As oppossed to Muslims who converted Blacks away from the Christianity that they considered inferior?
"It's time to listen to some of Farrakhan's speeches (or anyone else's, for that matter)"
All the above shows that's it's time for you to listen to your own speeches and recognize the hypocrisy there.
"Back to the subways!"
We'll get there when we no longer have to spend time correcting lies and half truths.
Alan Glick
At the same token (sorry for the pun) you can't condemn an entire group of people (Nation of Islam) for the words of their leadership. I believe this is what got my goat with Chris. He was saying that the NOI was racist (and whatever other negative words he used there). Lumping generalities on an entire group or race is not being fair or indeed accurate. It also shows a lack of knowledge about other nationalities/religions.
For instance, I know a Black Muslim and he is a very nice guy -- and doesn't always believe the words of Mr. Farrakan. He lives a very humble lifestyle (doesn't smoke or drink) and is a devoted family man. He does not harbor ill will towards whites are anyone else. He's a devote follower of the Muslim faith (eats Kosher), and has a "normal" job with the City of New York.
Now, enough of these off-topic subjects....it's getting rather long in the tooth.
Doug aka BMTman
"Now, enough of these off-topic subjects....it's getting rather long in the tooth"
Agreed, as has been remarked elsewhere, there are other forums for this kind of stuff. Understandably transit will touch on many outside topics which are relevant, but when these peripheral topics start to take over the thread it serves no purpose. I am as guilty as anyone for the spread of thread drift, but I'm going to try my best to keep it to a bare minimum starting now.
Alan Glick
Not to keep this going, but I condemn everyone associated with the NOI strictly for their beliefs. No amount of piety, toughness on crime and racial unity can disguise the despicable anti-white, anti-semetic core of that entire faith.
For some good laughs try to engage one of them in a conversation by using the words "mother-wheel" and "Yakub".
You're entitled to your slanted opinion.
As I noted before (maybe you didn't see it): If you want to carry this topic further contact me at my e-mail address (but I seriously doubt that you will).
This off-topic discussion is wasting the time, space and money of Mr. Pirmann's website. (Unless you are helping to foot the bill for those expenses, why not conduct these NON-TRANSIT topics offline?)
This is my final post on this thread. Good night.
Doug aka BMTman
Further discussion is pointless. How about those R142's?
lol
I haven't seen them yet. Have you?
How are these posts wasting money? The board is still here whether posts are made or not, unless the connection charges for additional bandwidth.
I believe the larger the site the higher the cost.
I'm not sure. But the webmaster knows for sure. I thought a prior post on the cost of running this site mentioned the details.
Doug aka BMTman
But the hard drive space is still there. It's not like it magically expands when it's needed and that costs money.
[At the same token (sorry for the pun) you can't condemn an entire group of people (Nation of Islam) for the words of their leadership. I believe this is what got my goat with Chris. He was saying that
the NOI was racist (and whatever other negative words he used there). Lumping generalities on an entire group or race is not being fair or indeed accurate. It also shows a lack of knowledge about other nationalities/religions.]
Part of the problem is that to a considerable extent the NOI and its leadership have gotten a "free ride" from the press. To use a recent example, John Rocker's anti-immigrant comments have gotten far more (negative) attention than anything spouted by Farrakhan or other NOI leaders. Jerry Falwell's anti-Jewish comments and the Southern Baptists' conversion programs also have engendered a great deal of media criticism. I attribute much of this to the reticence on the part of much of the press, in particular the _Times_, to criticize blacks lest they be accused of racism. And that is a silly and indeed patronizing belief.
Thank you.
A voice of reason.
Doug aka BMTman
You've convinced me. It's about time I recognize that the Klan has done some good things for the white residents of the south. I hear that David Duke wants to set up a college scholarship fund for disadvantaged, poverty striken white kids. Who cares about his beliefs about racial relations?
i disagree with r -16 farrakhan ( used to be at the 116th and lenox irt station )
is a black seperatist !!! nazi germany not involved !!!
Farrakhan is a rabid racist. Referreing to him as such is hardly name calling.
Alan Glick
what is this straphangers advocacy group. if they like reading consumer reports automobile comparisons where they talk alot of crap then they do need to shut up!
Louis Farrakhan has never advocated genocide or murder,
either, but that hasn't stopped his detractors from
likening him to Hitler as well. And I disgree vehemently
with Farrakhan's outrageous comments about Jews. Oh, by the way...what about Limbaugh and his beloved "feminazi" epithet?
As long as there are political parties and ideologies, there will be name calling. And there will be no apologies from any one side until all sides agree to cease fire. This is a sad fact of life.
Back to the subways!
At the risk of bringing some light to this heated debate, I would encourage posters to actually read their report.
You can find it here:
http://www.straphangers.org/shmutz00/shmutz00.html#summary
Far from bashing the MTA or the politicians that oversee it, the report is headlined: "Subway Cars Are Cleaner" and attributes the improvement to an increase in car cleaners and the participation of WEP workers. It makes no argument against those workers' participation.
To focus only on the underlying causes of poor cleanliness conditions is to engage in the very un-Republican practice of letting the bureaucracy off the hook -- The riders are slobs, what can you do?
The truth is that car cleaners (and WEP workers, for that matter) can and do make a difference, as the improvements over last year's report show. If you were doing the report, you might make it broader, but that doesn't detract from the validity of their observations.
In my experience, the Straphangers' Campaign, while admittedly ideologically liberal, has been a bunch of equal-opportunity, nonpartisan noodges, complaining loudly about the subways during both Democratic and Republican administrations. And ask yourself, if they weren't there, who would advocate for improvements?
(Stranhangers findings praise improvements)
I guess the report and the press release are two different things. The press reported the straphangers claimed the subways stink.
They said they should be better. They always say they should be better. as others have pointed out, that's what they do.
Which proves once again that one should never take any news report at face value (especially if it's in the New York Post). That's why I read five to seven papers every day, ranging across the ideological spectrum.
Unfortunatly, this report, while informative, isn't the real reason the Straphangers compiled it. The sole purpose of this group's existance is to rail against corporate and governmental agencies. That doesn't change just because they release an arcane report which nobody really sees. If they were really commited to furthering the cause of subway/bus riders, they could've simply released their report and be done with it. No self serving, biased press conferences.
I just read the Straphangrs' report. One key statement was that the survey did not include litter...which invalidates much of the rhetoric in the above thread.
As for the "workfare" car cleaners: If I recall, it was Giuliani, not the unions, who moved to reduce their numbers.
Untrue. It's been the TWU, along with other labor unions, who have led the fight against using workfare workers in almost any capacity.
And by watching Mr. Russianoff's press conference, I never heard him point out that his report was about grime, not litter. In fact, I couldn't make much of anything out of what he was saying, as his attacks upon the MTA and the Pataki administration sorta drowned everything out.
Woman Dragged In Bag Incident
FRIGHTENING MOMENTS THIS MORNING FOR A WOMAN TRYING TO GET ON AN "F" TRAIN AT ROCKEFELLER CENTER.
TRANSIT AUTHORITY SPOKESMAN BOB SLOVAK SAYS SHE WAS DRAGGED ALONG THE PLATFORM FOR SEVERAL FEET BEFORE HER BAG PULLED FREE.
THIS HAPPENED A LITTLE BEFORE NINE AT THE 47TH-50TH STREET STATION.
THE WOMAN SUFFERED A CUT ON HER HEAD AND WAS TAKEN TO BELLEVUE HOSPITAL.
HER CONDITION IS NOT YET KNOWN.
TUNE IN FOR DETAILS.
(wcbs 880 am)
Owwwwwwww, My ears., Next time please mind the CAPS!, The Bag Incident, she shoulda let go.
Sorry about the CAPS. I simply copy pasted the text off wcbs' website. The original text was in CAPS>
Not only that, there was a 12-9 on D-3 track south of Queens
Plaza today, mid-afternoon. I passed the location and it
appeared someone fell between the cars on an E train as it
left QP. Service was, of course, extremely delayed. Anyone
have any details?
The woman was held for observation. Of course, it was a 'D' train and not an F. It seems that the woman turned quickly and the strap from her bag got tangled in the barrier springs between cars. She showed great conviction by hanging onto it, allowing herself to be dragged.
Mr. Conductor didn't see her.
If he did he could stop the train in time.
Lets see...emergency brake or one long buzz, three short buzzes or turn the MDC key so the motorman lose indication.
Anyone know the different buzz codes? I know two short buzzes mean proceed.
One long BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ would have stopped the train
I wouldn't want to turn the Key in the MDC to stop the train. Your bybassing a safeguard to keep the doors closed an pax in the train.
BTW, is this a real dragging as in like someone caught in the doors?
Would the crew be pulled and tested?
Steve, you should know better. in the event of a passenger drag, the CR is to pull the emergency brake valve to stop the train. If the CR writes "I gave one long buzz to stop the train", we'll all get to watch as labor relations puts his head into the noose he just tied.
I know that. I also know that in a recent case, a C/R was unable to pull the cord on an R-68. Recently, I was on a D train when a skell, picking up cans on the roadbed at Tremont Ave. Dove under the platform to avoid being hit. The T/O took a full service brake rather than dumping the train. Failure to perform properly? - Definitely!!! However, a train stops better in full service than it does in emergency.... My feeling is - WHAT EVER WORKS...
There was a brief account of it on the 10:00 Ch.5 News. Passing footage of "Q"s #4210-4211 and #4314-4315 was seen (#4314 was the one Simon and I rode on the "Q" last March 15 and he dusted three R68s between B.B. and P.P.).
I am relieved to hear that the woman is OK. Food for thought for me, anyway - I always have my shoulder bag on when I travel in the subway.
Gotta remember to keep it away from the doors.
Wayne
Normally in an incident like this, the train is checked for related defects and unless it is 'door related', the train is released back to service. Today, I had to hold the train for 2 detectives>>>>>
STUPID is all that has to be said PERIOD Do you think she learned a lesson by standing too close to the edge of the platform?
[It seems that the woman turned quickly and the strap from her bag got tangled in the barrier springs between cars. She showed great conviction by hanging onto it, allowing herself to be dragged.]
It's possible that the strap had been wrapped around her arm or shoulder, meaning that she couldn't have released it even if she tried.
It may not mean much to any of you but today, January 24 is special to me. First of all it is my wife's birthday. Secondly, today is the 30th anniversary of a picture of an R11 #4Sea Beach entering King's Highway Station. The train is a blue and silver beauty and it graces my desktop. I see it every day when I log on to chat with you guys. I was told some time ago by Larry Redbird R33 that this train carried the #4 for only a few weeks back in 1970 before reverting again to the "N". Anyway, I thought I'd share this with you.
The R-11s kept their BMT number curtains throughout their careers. A puzzler is the blank destination slot in that photo. When the R-11s ran briefly on the B in 1968, signed up as a #3, the Manhattan-bound end had a "57th St.-Manhattan via Bridge" sign.
I have to wonder if that was a solid train of R-11s in that photo, or if those two cars which are visible weren't part of a mixed consist. Smorgasbord trains were common on the B division during that time period.
Steve B- 8AVEXP: I did notice the blank space in the middle of the front car, but I assumed it was heading for 57th Street. I did see a #3 West End R-11 in the photos I looked at awhile back. If the R-11's carried number designations throughout their existence, didn't that cause some confusion with the pretender IRT Lines up in the Bronx? How long did the R-11's run? Steve or anybody out there?
Fred: The R-11's ran from 1949 up to the late 70's, with an eight year hiatus from 1957 to 1965. I don't have the exact dates in front of me but I can get them if you need them.
The point to remember is that only a minority of the BMT Car Fleet carried the numerical designation and that the last map to show the numbers was the BMT-issued 1939 one for the World's Fair. The BOT never used the route numbers on the maps that they issued even though the R-11's and R-16's carried them. Its interesting to note that the R-11's carried route numbers for all routes over which they could operate,ie 1,2,3,4,5,7,10,14,15,16. The R-16's carried route numbers only for the Eastern Section,ie 10,14,15,16.
The BOT and later the NYCTA did not show IRT route numbers on subway maps up until the 1966 map,while BMT route letters for the Southern Section but not the Eastern Section of the BMT were first used on the 1965 map,one year earlier.
As for the pretenders up in The Bronx. Where does it say that the BMT had a monopoly on numbers 1 thru 16. I believe that Moses and the Israelites had an option on numbers 1 thru 10 long before the BMT as ever thought of.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,Redbird R33: Somehow I knew I
could count on you. Thanks. I did
not see much from you lately. Are
you on vacation? One chink in the
armor. I have a picture of a Sea
Beach Triplex taken iin May, 1964 that
shows the letter "N". As for a monopoly
by the BMT, you are right, but I'm an
old BMT fan, so I'm not as open minded
about this as I should be. Have a
great weekend.
Don't tell me they actually fitted some of the Triplexes with letter route curtains. Of course, had they been kept, chances are they would have received letter curtains anyway.
Fred: Can you identify which car. It seems as if the roll signs of the Triplexes and R 1-9's and possibly others were interchangeable.
There is a photo of an R-1 381 at Coney Island with a #4 sign dating from July 8,1931. I don't know where they got the BMT roll sign for an IND car but it looks like it might have come from a D-Type.
I haven't been on vacation but was working on a few projects. I did try to come back on once but it seemed like there was a replay of the Hatfield-McCoy Feud going on so I stayed off until a ceasefire was declared.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry R-Redbird33: You got me covered. It was not a Triplex but rather an R-27, car #8217, taken May 2, 1964 by Dave Pirmann. It looked at first as though it might be a Triplex, but when I enlarged the picture, I knew it wasn't. The picture can be found on the Trains and Stations Section of the nycsubway.org , the Sea Beach Line.
Larry hit the nail on the head: only a small percentage of BMT equipment was equipped with bulkhead signs, and consequently, their number code was never consistently applied. Some number markings, particularly those designated to bona fide el routes, were never seen on trains. The Triplexes and multis featured a numeral with no subscript, while the R-11s and R-16s did have subscripts. Take a good look at that R-11 picture and you'll see "Sea Beach" beneath the numeral 4.
Steve B -8AVEXP: You must have X-Ray eyes. That R-11 picture is on my desktop and I can't read any Sea Beach below the 4. It says something but it's not readable. Tell me where you got your eyes and I'll send out for a pair of them.
01/24/2000
Last week I was at South Ferry Station on the #1 & #9. I noticed that the fare control area is so tight, there isn't any room for one MVM machine. When the system goes full MVM's in the near future, how does stations like South Ferry accommodate an MVM machine? I doubt some wanting to purchase a MetroCard in the future has to upstairs at the SI Ferry terminal to buy one. Are there any other station fare control areas that are tight for space?
Bill Newkirk
Eliminate the booth.
By the time they do, the station area will be rebuilt along with the ferry terminal.
Speaking of, the first booth closing connected with the installation of MVMs has occured. The booth on the upper level of the St. George terminal has been closed permenantly. It used to be open only from 6-10am. The booth in the SIR station will remain open.
-Hank
01/25/2000
Hank,
Wait a minute! They are rebuilding the Whitehall terminal? I thought that was rebuilt when they had the fire. Maybe I can understand them building a weatherproof transfer to South Ferry, which is sorely needed.
Bill Newkirk
NO fulltime booth will be closed. A station that has one or more part-time booths **may** see reduced part-time coverage or a even a part-time booth's closure but a fullt-ime booth will remain opebn in all stations that al;ready have a full-time booth. We are protected from layoff through the end of the contract (12/15/2002).
Look at banks- ATMs are here and the banks still have human tellers-- we will still be here to serve you.
The ferry terminal you see now is a TEMPORARY, that is what all Staten Islanders were told after the fire. We were supposed to get a new building. I saw some drawings once, with a Big Huge Clock Face on the water (so you would know how late you were).
South Ferry terminal's (IRT 1 & 9)current design (after reconstruction) has the turnstiles stagered. This believe it or not was via a suggestion of riders not a TA idea. The TA screwed the concrete pour during the rebuild (rememebr that one) and had to rip up the track bed because it was too high.
I might add that NYCT Station Agents Can **not** work in Staten Island. All Staten Island train Jobs are covered (*Worked by) SIRTOA employees. SIRTOA makes the decisions for Staten Island-- it is just like MaBSTOA decides for MaBSTOA.
That would add to the clean break if SI ever becomes part of NJ vs. NY.
Mr t__:^)
That's not what's happening.
Staten Island wanted to become an independent city vs. remaining in New York CITY. They haven't wanted to join Jersey for 350 years.
The booth on the upper level wasn't an SIR booth.
-Hank
Mark,did you ever get thoses pictures of the 2 ave. subway sections? If not,is there a way to get them?
Who wants to see pictures of nothing? Only a few short tunnel sections were roughly dug before the $$$ ran out.
Actually, there are a number of us who would! Four sections were dug; I've been told that one of those was filled back in since no concrete work was done, just utility relocation. (This differs with information elsewhere on this site which indicates that all four are extant. I'd be happy for someone to provide evidence one way or another.) This leaves three segments - two long ones, from East 99th to East 105th and from East 110th to East 120th streets, plus a 700' section in Chinatown. Mark Feinman sells a video tape that includes footage of this section, from a Transit Museum tour.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As you state, only 3 of the 4 sections you list are still extant. The section in the East Village has been filled back in.
For more info on the 2nd Ave subway, see my History of the Independent Subway.
Regarding pictures of the Chinatown section, I want to get Dave some snapshots off the video as well as Roosevelt Ave (also on this video). I'm just very busy right now and haven't had the chance to get to it. But I will, I assure you.
--Mark
Thanks, I had forgotten that you included the detail there. Perhaps we should ask Dave to add a small update to his page on the Second Avenue indicating that the section from 2nd to 9th has been filled in?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Done! (I think the page you refer to is the 2nd Ave. Timeline. If there's another, let me know)
-dave
That's the one - thanks, Dave.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Regarding pictures of the Chinatown section, I want to get Dave some snapshots off the video (as well as Roosevelt Ave, also on the video). I'm just very busy right now and haven't had the chance to get to it. But I will, I assure you.
If you'd like to see what's on this video, which I call "You Can't Get There From Here", here's the description.. Once at the page, scroll down 3 or 4 times to get to this specific video.
--Mark
At the bottom of the TMNY archives page, there is a mystery photo section. In another discussion group, someone suggested that the first mystery photo is in Queens, and the cars are from the Manhattan & Queens line. If you good at identifying old pictures, take a look and see if you agree.
No, don't have a clue, although that big "E" should be a dead giveaway for someone. I DO like that funny-looking streetlamp, however. Isn't it missing its shade?
Wayne
Nice pix!
Who has more info about that Guilford Ave El structure in Baltimore?
how about that folks couldnt you see it the REDBIRDS LIVE IN LAS VEGAS n.y. n.y. !!!!
That would be a waste of money hauling those old cars in to LV. They can make mock ups, and probably already have them anyway.
If there's anyplace that can waste money on extravagant hotel features, its Las Vegas. If you can stick half an R-9 in a Deli in Staten Island, the people at New York, New York could drop a Redbird into the middle of their casino at whatever the cost, and not blink an eye.
I saw a set of R-32's on the B last night at Pacific. I always thought that the B only ran 68/68A's.
R-32s on the B are nothing new. They were assigned to the B when that line debuted with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection. Interestingly, the original R-32 roller curtains had BB signs, which were covered over with B overlays.
Get used to it. I'd bet that there will be even more R32 cars on the B during the C line outage in February, since the B line will have extra service during rush hours.
here is the latest:
Metro North . Amtrak, LIRR: 5-10 minutes system wide delays
PATH: 5-15 minutes delay enroute from Newark to World Trade. The big problem here is the section between Harrison and Journal Square--it qwill bew a major effort to keep this delay from slipping.
NJT: cross honoring of rail and bus tickets. Bus 30-60 minutes stateiwde delays. Trains- as of now "close to schedule" but I do expect this to slip.
Subways: As of now on time but I see these problem areas:
All of SIRT, Franklin SHuttle, Dyre, Brighton, Sea Beach, Rockaway Peninsula (A/S).
I imagine Steve has been called in (if not already there) and working to keep us going. I am on vacation and I dont know if they'd call in people already on vacation.
I expect we are at least at Plan 3-
Bill (From Maspeth) can you elaborate?
Plenty of fun here (DC). Went out to Shady Grove on Friday and MetroRail is running fine. MARC and VRE are a different story, though. No report on MetroBus.
the latest: PATH 15 minute delays. laGuardia Aiprort closed till at least 11am. Alll NYC limited bus service canceled- running local only. many S I Reroutes.
LIRR 10 minutes system wide. Metro North- delays due to "slow boarding" NJT two canceled trains due to switching problems in NY and Trenton.
I think I am starting to see a pattern with NJT: By this afternoon I expect modified Saturday service ( I remember 1996)- same for Metro North and LIRR.
Hats off to Steve and company- so far we are on time.
My LIRR train this morning, the 7:14 from Patchogue, was delayed for a half-hour because, of all idiotic things, the windshield wiper was broken!
"My LIRR train this morning, the 7:14 from Patchogue, was delayed for a half-hour because, of all idiotic things, the windshield wiper was broken!"
Interesting. As I rode the railfan window this morning on my LIRR train and watched the snow and ice pile up, I thought to myself that it would really suck if the windshield wiper stopped working for the engineer.
That thought probably occurred to me at about the same time your engineer was first cursing his equipment.
Chuck
A dusting or 1 to 2" in the Phila. area turns into a major snowstorm.
Todd Glickman, can you exlain the weather?? Only kidding. I'm staying home today to play on the computer. SEPTA is still running but the infamous Rt. 35 is not, as always in the snow. The hills in Roxborough are always too much. Keep us posted Sub-talkers on how the transit systems on the east coast are doing in the storm.
Chuck Greene
The R6 Cynwyd is shut down(they could keep it that way) and Philly International is closed until 3pm.
SEPTA, for a change, is promoting use of the El and Subway instead of Regional Rail.
The storm was supposed to be over the ocean, but it moved a few miles to the west. That's all it takes...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Our weather guys here in Philly said a 50 mile shift made the difference. Todd, thanks for your reply, it was to the point!
Chuck Greene
Sure, Chuck, this one's easy:
IT'S JANUARY AND COLD. SO INSTEAD OF RAINING IT SNOWS.
This morning my regular commuter train inbound to Boston's North Station was delayed about ten minutes due to a frozen switch. Fortunatly we were about 20 yards from "Tower A" at the North Station ladder track, so someone was there quickly to deal with it.
Not a good day for meteorologists. As I arrived here in Roslindale, WBZ (Accuweather) was saying the snow was over - full changeover to rain. Indeed - that had happened. HOWEVER... It quickly went back to snow and hasn't let up since. I have been sitting here watching drivers on a steep hill, lots of hares and turtles, not much common sense!
Gerry
Well, Gerry, meteorology may be an exact science, but precicting the future is not! (Back on topic) I'd love to be up at Seashore now running our Type-3 snowplow! A great example of early 20th century technology that keeps on going, and going, and going...
1230EST Back to a wintry mix...
Local buses unfazed.
2100 EST - big snowburst over western Suffolk County, mixed in with schmutz - huge flakes (lots of juice in the air). Still a messy snow/mix as of 2253 EST. Wait till this mess freezes up, then the fun will begin. Break out the smudge-pots and call for the Gel Applicator Cars.
Wayne
It was a very interesting storm. Here in another Suffolk County we had almost no precipitation after my previous update. What we got came as freezing rain, though, with the usual chaos on the highways overnight. MBTA gets an A for this one, little more than routine problems.
I stuck my nose outside at about 0615, and it wasn't doing anything...ten minutes later our towns fire alarm was sgnalling "no school", by 1100 or so, we had more than 8 inches on the ground..it turned into a little freezing sleet...but this evening, it started snowing HARD again, Ill bet weve had 6 inches since 5 PM (its only about 845 now...)!!! IF you had been listening, the GOOD forecasters DID say that if the storm tracks to the east, only Eastern LI gets anything..BUT if it tracks to the west EVERYBODY gets clobbered...(especially us up here in the Hudson Valley!) I heard on my scanner NJT basically shut down this afternoon...(or at least the PJ line..)As of this post, it is snowing as hard as it has all day.....sheesh....
I have yet to run one of the plows. Maybe in the spring...
Hi Todd,
Had almost as much fun running around O.H. yard with little truck mount plows and heated brass pantos on my Blue Line duece. Great overhead sparks when the sun went down. No delays on the line during the PM rush. They were pulling back to the yard right on the money.
Excellent description of January weather! Now I know why you're such a fine meteorologist! :)
--Mark
Here I am with wet feet & cold coffee, thanks for bringing a smile to my lips
Mr t__:^)
Well, actually Todd, we kind of have to be re-educated about that! Especially when you consider the last two or three loser winters.... BUT that is the best line Ive heard yet.... ALSO....anyone go out and snap some pics??
Well, you got the first letter right, but are you sure your fingers didn't slip while typing? Seems to me that you went down one row for the second letter and one key to the right for the third ... not sure how to explain the fourth letter, though ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GOOD EXPLANATION!!!
Although today is a great day for snow, I don't have to go anyplace, so it doesn't bother me.
And tomorrow I'll take the LIRR from Penn Station either to Port Washington or Oyster Bay.
WMATA is doing fine. MARC and VRE have delays and cancellations.
With amazing forethought and planning, I put in to take today and tomorrow off a month ago. The rest of my classmates are out driving trains in this weather.
WOW! Whats your Super Bowl pick???
A triple A battery stoped a multiTon R68 D train in it's tracks this moring. Yes a little tiny battery stop a HUGE BIG TRAIN.
We were having indication problems the whole trip in. Snow was getting into the door track and the conductor had to "shake" the doors to get indication. I mean it was BAD with a capital B, it took sometimes 8 cycles of the doors to get them closed with indication but then all went to pot.
No T/O or C/R indication. The T/O said he would walk the train to where the guard light was out. Cleared snow out of the track but still no indication. The C/R wanted to discharge the train and take it out of service. But this shrap eyed T/O found the problem. In a little mound of snow in the dorr track was a AAA battery. Now the TA clamied it's new door technology could find a credit card in the door but it took the skill of a vetran T/O to find a battery in the snow that kept the door open.
Way To Go!! (and I don't mean the MTA Media Hype).
I can see the snow being a problem in getting the doors closed with indication. I hope everyone has a safe trip today.
The TA claimed a credit card could stop the doors from giving C/R indication, because they would still be open. a AAA battery, being thicker than a credit card, will absolutely stop the doors from indicating that they are closed.
Way to Go is NJT
MTA is Going Your Way.
Who was it that was paining for the opportunity to take photos of subway cars in the snow ... I hope you brought your camera today !
Mr t__:^)
It was the R36-33s Fan, aka Sherman Cheung, I have my Camera and I'm coming out today.
Would that be Thereal Sherman Cheung who I met for the first time Friday night ? Good luck to you ! Please send a copy to Dave so we all can enjoy.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, that used to be me, lots of imposters using my name.
You like the R-33S, ewww.
I was!
In fact I went to NYC last Thursday for the same reason-- snow! I went to #7, #6, #4, and #2/#5 to take pictures on Redbirds. I used two rolls of slide film with my manual camera.
I had a good time shooting Redbirds in the snow. Hope that Sherman have a good time today.
Chaohwa
It's days like this that I wish I lived closer to the City than I do!
--Mark
You can always go for a sled TRAIN ride with you son ! I did that last week with my grandson. One of life's little pleasures.
Mr t__:^)
The Boston MBTA has near real-time service status updates. I say 'near real-time' as it's not always updated rapidly. In addition, they seem to only care about providing information during rush hours.
I've put up some more pictures and redone my Tokyo and Los Angeles GeoMetro sections and added two pictures of yours truly.
Check it out here
I took this picture when I was in NYC in June near Broad Street. It was too funny.
Will the R-142s have a regular PA system, or an automated announcement system as in on the M4s, and some newer Philadelphia buses.
Automated like the R-110
Will the R-142s have a regular PA system, or an automated announcement system as in on the M4s, and some newer Philadelphia buses?
Yes they will Isaac. also LCD's inside and out.
If they do, it better work better than the one on the buses in Philly. On the 44, it skipped stops on City Line Avenue and didn't announce 30th Street Station.
I don't think the 44 was programmed to announce 30th Street, because that was only a temporary routing, and was not made permanent until recently. As for City Line, it only announces major stops. But anyway, for all of these lines, the driver/operator still has to press a button to run the announcements; something that some don't know how to do.
The LIRR has announced that it will run extra trains this afternoon for those leaving early due to the snowstorm.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/service.htm
Saturday March 25,2000 will be a very sad day in
transit history. It will be the last day there will be
condutors on Chicago's "rapid transit". Since November
9,1997, MOTORMEN on the Red Line(Howard/Dan-Ryan) worked
OPTO southbound from Howard St. to Fullerton, from there
a conductor would board and operate the doors to Cermak
Rd., from there the MOTORMAN would work OPTO to 95th
St.This process would reverse northbound. On the Blue
Line(O'Hare/Congress-Douglas) the MOTORMAN would work OPTO
southbound from O'Hare to Division St., a conductor would
board and operate the doors to Clinton St.From there there
the MOTORMAN would work OPTO to there respective
terminals.This process would reverse northbound. Since the
Blue Line conductors do not work on
weekends, their last will be Friday March 24,2000. The
train with the last conductor on it will be Saturday March
25,2000. The train will leave Cermak Rd. Northbound at
about 8:30 pm. I plan on riding that train. I hate to be
the only railfan on that train, but it looks like with the
apathy that exists, I probably will be.
You mean now they're going so far as to doing away entirely with conductors in the subway portions of the Red and Blue lines? Oi Vay!!
You mean now they're going so far as to doing away entirely with conductors in the subway portions of the Red and Blue lines? Oi Vay!!
Or should I say, ooohhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooo.
You're right. Oi Vay!
i was in chicago in july when it was opto on the blue line(sort of). the conductor rode in the middle route(probably downtown). When the line got out of the city and into the suburbs, it was opto. I was in the conductors car when a woman was robbed of her chain. the guy was in the same car the conductor WOULD have been in if he didnt board off the train. Maybe CTA is saving money, but not at the expense of the riders.
Thank you
A conductor wouldn't have stopped it.
Even if the perp wouldn't have done it in the conductor's car, he would have done it one car away.
The conductor wouldn't have done a thing. You could kick an old lady in the face on a CTA train and nine out of ten conductors would look the other way and pretend not to see it.
I prefer having conductors on the trains, but given the lazy and incompetent slobs the CTA usually has working for them (my apologies to the small handful of CTA employees who are truly dedicated to what they do), OPTO isn't much of a loss here, unfortunately.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
With that attidude, you get the service you deserve.
My attitude? I always thought the CTA's mission was to get their passengers from Point A to Point B in a timely, safe and efficient manner. How naive of me.
New Years Day 2000, about 4:30 AM:
As I tried to apprehend the pickpocket who had sliced the wallet out of some guy's pants with a razor blade on the CTA Blue Line, I landed a good punch on his mouth and we scuffled a bit on the platform before he took off running down the Washington transfer tunnel.
The T/O who watched the whole incident from twenty feet away? "Watch the closing doors," and off the train went.
The ticket agent up on the mezzanine afterwards? "I'll call it in," after a hearty yawn in my face.
The moral of the story: I don't recall seeing you on that platform offering any assistance to me, so don't give me any shit about what level of service I deserve.
-- David
David, I applaud your action. The pickpocket with a knife assumes no one will step forward. Please be careful, though. Guns are ever present and used without a second thought. I lived in Chicago for 20 years; the worst was being hit on the head in the Roosevelt Road subway station.
Oy Vey
Where did you hear this bit of information??
I get all of my CTA news from Chicago-l.org and Graham hasn't posted this tidbit yet.
If this is true, then it will be a sad day in CTA History.
I guess they are trying to save all that they can, but come on, what happens in an emergency???
That is really funny if it is March 25th, because that is the day before I leave for my trip to NYC the last week of March. I guess I will have to enjoy the conductors in NYC and remeber all the speed the CTA still has.
BJ
Try picking up a copy of the Chicago Tribune or the Sun-Times once in a while.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
This is incorrect. I ride the Blue Line regularly and conductors were entirely phased out by 1997/1998. There are NO conductors on any portion of the Blue Line.
I rode the Red Line a few times last year and NO conductors were on the train. Conductors have been gone for some time.
What time of the day did ride it?
Conductors are still on eight car trains in the subways only. 2,
4, and 6 car trains won't have conductors.
My "source" in top management says the CTA DOES PLAN to
again eliminate subway conductors effective the spring
pick this March, despite union objection. (They objected
before with little effect.)
In the last month there has been a rash of personal crimes
committed on the CTA, against female employees and
passengers. The crimes have been rapes, stabbings, and
gang assualts. Unfortuntely the publicity from this
activity may be the only reason the CTA doesn't go through
with this second conductor elimination.
Is it true in New York that there is a provision against
OPTO on trains longer than a certain number of cars? An 8
car Chicago train is 400 feet long, but our subway
platforms are all straight.
Dave
"In the last month there has been a rash of personal crimes committed on the CTA, against female employees and passengers. The crimes have been rapes, stabbings, and gang assualts. Unfortuntely the publicity from this activity may be the only reason the CTA doesn't go through with this second conductor elimination."
Three attacks in the last month, one fatal.
1) An argument led to a fatal stabbing at Belmont (Red/Brown/Purple) station. On the platform, not on a train. Guards or police on the platform arrested the assailant immediately.
2) Rape at 95th Street station of an on-duty CTA employee. But according to the rhetoric of the anti-OPTO folks, the unarmed and untrained-as-police CTA employees are supposed to be the deterrent to crime against passengers. To paraphrase the old saying, who protects the protectors?
3) Rape on the platform of busy Clark/Lake subway station, in an emergency stairwell. Again, in the station, not on a train, and there was a platform attendant on duty at the time of the incident.
Also, the police have the alleged 95th Street rapist in custody, and suspect that he was also the perpetrator of the Clark/Lake rape.
It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to deduce a pattern here: these attacks occurred in stations rather than on trains, and the presence of CTA employees or police at the scene of all three incidents did nothing to prevent them.
A few months ago, in a highly-publicized incident, a German tourist was stabbed by a madman on a Blue Line train. But the attack occurred at the height of rush hour while the train was in Clark/Lake subway station. And Blue Line trains, while in the subway on weekdays, have conductors aboard (at least for the time being). So the presence of an unarmed conductor did not deter that attack. (Quelle surprise.) Then again, there were police on the platform who immediately arrested the attacker, so the presence of armed police officers didn't deter the lunatic either.
Transit doesn't have a lot of money to pay unneeded crew. They must reduce manning because of todays high labor costs. If crime is a problem then what you need is more security i.e. police not more train crew. Conductors are not trained to take on an armed suspect. You could justify a fare increase for more police but not for more conductors. It amazes me that these days transit authorities spend a fortune on automatic train control, cab signaling, modern fare collection without a real reduction in manning. After spending all that money they want to cut service to pay for it.
Speaking of the CTA spending millions for high-tech frills while basic service is neglected or outright eliminated...
A couple evenings ago I decided to do a little railfanning on the Evanston Express train up to Howard from Belmont. The train I ended up riding was one of the trains that had been outfitted with the new automated anouncement system that is being tested.
I can just imagine the boardroom meeting at the Merchandise Mart that led to the introduction of this system:
PROBLEM: Station announcements by CTA personel are usually garbled and incomprehensible.
SOLUTION A: Instruct T/O's to speak clearly so that they can be understood by the riding masses.
SOLUTION B: Spend $5.4 million for a (most likely politically-connected) firm to install an automated announcement system on all the trains, even while conductors are being eliminated, the Ravenswood Line is at crush capacity and the Douglas Line is literally crumbling to the ground.
This being Chicago, the CTA naturally went with Option B.
The announcements are made by a perfect radio announcer voice, and the chime before the doors close sounds like one of those church bells that has been replaced by a loudspeaker system.
"Howard is the next stop on this Purple Line express. Change for the Yellow and Red Lines at Howard. Doors open on the right at Howard."
"This is Howard. Change for the Yellow and Red Lines at Howard."
[BING BANG] "Doors closing"
"Welcome to the CTA Purple Line. Smoking, littering and playing of radios or other loud devices is prohibited. Soliciting is prohibited on CTA trains. Violators will be arrested."
"Paramount is pleased to bring you our Feature Presentation."
Okay, I made the last one up, but it sounds like the same guy. I admit the new announcements are much more understandable than the previous random garbles, especially to somebody who may be riding the system for the first time. However, they are uncomfortably loud, and the doors-closing chime is a joke. I'd much rather hear the chime used on the NYC system or even the newer Metra coaches.
(Ironically, the company that created the NYC Subway "bing bong" chime is based right here in Chicago!)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I hate 'em. You're of course right that it's a ridiculous thing to spend big money on; but my own gripe is with the replacement of the voices of local conductors with the Bloomington, Indiana, accent enforced on the national news. (The cruelest cut, for me, was the automation of the Boston Red Line announcements-- whither "Haavahd"?) If you're not going to hear the way people really talk, why get up from in front of the TV?
I've been noticing a broader variety of immigrant accents calling the stops on the New York subway--from Indian to West Indian, and even Chinese. (The Chinese guy had been put on a Whitehall-bound R train, which I thought was a little unfair, since most Asian languages don't distinguish "r" from "l", and he had a tough time of it.)
Think of it as a speed issue. In Chicago, the doors used to pop open almost the instant the train stopped in the station. Now, it can take 10 seconds or more, especially if it's a completely incompetant operator (which many of the CTA operators are).
I beg your pardon!
Hey, some OPTO trains still have the doors pop open right away, because the operator is especially good.
This is incorrect. I ride the Blue Line regularly and conductors were entirely phased out by 1997/1998. There are NO conductors on any portion of the Blue Line.
I rode the Red Line a few times last year and NO conductors were on the train. Conductors have been gone for some time.
You stand corrected, sir. As of this writing conductors still work 8-car trains on the downtown subway portions of the Red Line and Blue Line.
On the Blue Line, conductors board southbound trains at Division and remain on the train until Clinton, and then reverse the process back to Division, etc.
On the Red Line, conductors board southbound trains at Fullerton and remain onboard until Roosevelt.
The only reason the conductors were retained on the subway portions this long was the result of a last-minute symbolic gesture in an effort to offset the outrage when conductors were first eliminated from the rest of the system. Everybody knew at the time the few remaining conductors were nothing more than a shallow publicity stunt on the part of the CTA, and that it was only a matter of time before they too would eventually be eliminated. Now it looks like that time is drawing near, and only the naive will be the least bit surprised when it happens.
But I think this last transition to OPTO will be less traumatic for commuters than the original transition, for the following reasons:
1) Now that more and more trains have full-width cabs, it now takes less time for the T/O to do his duties than this time 2-3 years ago.
2) People's expectations are much lower now. Think of the CTA as sort of the transit agency counterpart to the Chicago Cubs, and you have a pretty good idea of the prevailing mindset here.
The Straphangers in NYC may be annoying, but for a good look at what happens to public transit without strong, well-organized advocacy, the CTA and its utter contempt for the riding public would be Exhibit A.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I ride these ELs during various times of the day, incldung the times specified. I haven't seen these conductors. I must be missing the deluxe accomodations.
I guess you never stopped to wonder why the voice on the Blue Line train's PA system sometimes changes from a male voice to a female voice at Division, and then back to a male voice at Clinton. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Those are probably transsexual voices from the Springer show. :)
'I ride these ELs during various times of the day, incldung the times specified. I haven't seen these conductors. I must be missing the deluxe accomodations.'
First, in Chicago it is the 'L' you are riding, and not the el.
Secondly, you're notterribly observant while riding the train, are you?
Jim K.
Chicago
No you are, because they aren't on the train.
there are conductors on the blue line,but only through the downtown area during the week.
Conductors haven't existed on CTA for a long time. This post sounds like made up fiction.
For the time being, there are still conductors on the downtown subway portions of the Red and Blue lines. Go back and read my previous response to the original posting.
-- David
Chicago, IL
liar!!
I THINK OPTO IS DANGEROUS !! ( MAYBE ONE CAR OPERATION ) !!!!!!!!!!!!
No he's not lying, I live in Chicago, and it's true.
liar!!
BTW, how's Phyllis? -)
I'm fine sweetie. Thanks for asking. *smooches*
My aunt can vouch for conductors still being used on 8-car trains in the subway portions. The other day, she was on her way home on a Red line train. The conductor announced stations in the subway, then at Fullerton, the automated announcements were switched on. The trouble was, they weren't cued up properly. At Belmont, the announcement came on as the next stop being Fullerton instead of Addison, and so on.
This is NOT true!!
This is addressed to Mary, Rhoda, Phyliss, and Ida--why
are you arguing about whether there are conductors on 8
car CTA subway trains in Chicago?
Or am I missing something?
Go to the CTA web site or go to Monday's Chcago Tribune
and see the press release claiming $2 million saving from
eliminating conductors come March, 2000.
David Harrison
In MPLS mary and Rhoda are still using NPTO = No People Train Operating.
$2 million sounds like a lot, but it really isn't, considering speed and safety conditions that will go down when this happens.
The CTA needs a major change in management, NOT someone Mayor Daley hired just because he was his roommate in college.
-Jacob
Whenever I'm finished reading the New York Times I always place it on the seat next to mine and leave it there when I exit the subway. Yesterday a woman said to me "Excuse me sir, you've forgotten your paper." And handed it to me. The doors were about to close so I didn't have time to reply but what I would have said was "I appreciate it when people leave the paper for me so that I have something to read during my trip, I'm just extending that courtesy to others."
Who's right? I believe reading material takes precedence over littering.
I think it's polite to leave your paper when you're done with it, especially during rush hours. The long rides can get boring and it's nice to have something to red. I do it myself and have seen others do it.
Believe whatever you want; it won't get you out of paying the ticket if you get caught. You're littering.
David
If I want to read something, I'll bring it myself. Leaving a newspaper behind for someone else to throw away is just being lazy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Litterer. And you're no better then the crumbs who reach through the recycle bins for newspapers others have thrown away. _I_ bought that paper, you want to read it? Go buy it!
-Hank
I actually consider it a courtesy in case I have nothing intetesting to read...
It's littering Period. I've seen left papers blown all over the car floor and now with all the floors wet it is a mess.
A few years back, the TA issued "rules" when riding the subway. Actually it may have been issued by the TA police. Anyway, the police could give a ticket to the person PICKING UP a discarded paper. Can't figure out that one.
Joe C
Gents & Ladies
after several false dates and rumours of last trains it is with much
regret that I have to announce that the LAST crew (motor/wo/man & Guard) operated train will run this coming Thursday , January 27th.
Train 1-3-2 Northern Line will make its scheduled trip from
Morden to Edgware and return (via Bank) and will then operate a
"railfan" special via Charing Cross to mark the end of crew operated trains and the end of public use of 1959 Tube stock.
(several remain as works cars).
Important also is that from that time ALL London Underground trains
will be OPTO................
If you can battle through the snow and cross the Atlantic the last train is scheduled to depart from Morden at 19:20 GMT.
The end is here........... I will post digital images (via David Pirman)of this historic event.....
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Truely the end of an era, mind the gap, please.
Two lines in Boston continue with two man crews at all times, the other is full time OPTO.
Gerry
Are there plans in Boston for either the Orange or Red Lines or both to go OPTO?
Yes, I have chosen the most hated subway car of all time as my new, official handle. Why? I have an affection for things that are unpopular. The R-16 car has a special place in my heart, as it provided the bulk of the J train service during my childhood (around 1980-86). I still love, to this day, those wonderfully colorful side and bulkhead roll signs that remained on the R16 until the bitter end. So please, do not make fun of me.
Besides, I trust that nobody else has a claim on the title of "Mr. R16", right?
LOL
Yeah, I knew I was askin' fer it ...
[Yes, I have chosen the most hated subway car of all time as my new, official handle.]
Some people might consider the R-44 as the most hated car.
It's up there, but no other subway car has taken the kind of abuse mine has.
Umm... How about me? Slow poke? Beer can? Yeh I think I got it worse.
You left out Hippo.
-Hank
Not to mention Lumbering Lardbucket.
Now, Beer Can is a new one....
Beer is supposed to refreshing and satisfying. The R-68 is a nice looking comfortable car.
Ah, Beer. Is there any more perfect food?
(with apologies to Matt Groening and Homer Simpson)
-Hank
And if the R-68s were faster and had the half cabs facing out, I just might like them.
And the R-46 and the R-68, both of which I put on my favorites list as the top two.
The R46 is by far the most popular 75' car, and my personal favorite running today, with the R42 as a close 2nd.
It's funny, but I really don't have anything bad to say about the R-46s. OK, some of those door chimes are out of tune...
I know. They have pep, whichs seperates them from all the other 75' cars
the R-16 was a good ran car. My aunt agrees with you that it held up the bulk of the J line for a good time. But from what I have heard it was allergic to snow.
Yes, the R-16s had a reputation for being allergic to snow. The story goes that whenever a blizzard was headed for Brooklyn, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line and the BMT standards would take over on the Myrtle-Chambers and Jamaica lines.
Now, to set the record straight, I never hated the R-16s. Since I rode on them a grand total of two times for short hops, I'm not much of a judge. You have to wonder if it was a mistake to pull them off the Eastern Division in the first place. At least that way, they would have operated out of the same yard(s) and possibly gotten more attention. There was a thread a while back which mentioned the R-16s were shuffled around so much from yard to yard that they weren't inspected at all. No doubt deferred maintenance really killed them.
I've also heard that the GE R16's were allergic to movement, passangers, the earth's rotation ...
Well, the way they would slowly rock back and forth coming into a station, with each car 90 degrees out of phase with the ones in front and in back of it was unique. I think they were the only cars abloe to do it because they were the only ones moving slow enough to do it. However, if you really wanted to be specific on your new handle, "Chris R-16 GE" would be the better one to pick.
I'm just waiting for Mr. R-68.
And waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.......looks like the name "R-68" slows anything down.
We have a Mr. R68 (R68A-5200 to be exact).
Yeah you just wait... One day I'm gonna dust your um... R-Subway2k. (Cough)(Cough)(Cough) Not today.
Don't worry. I'll wait for you:)
We can only hope that field shunting will return someday...
How much you wanna bet that it'll return when the R68/R68A gets scrapped.
The R-68s are the newest trains even with the field shunting capability.
Newer trains are a completely different, more efficient, solid state system. In addition, the computer will detect the CBTC and various other conditions and adjust the maximum allowable speed.
So, if it isn't returned when the R-68 is scrapped, IT NEVER WILL.
Second worst. At least you aren't a Hippo.
Oh yes - since we must assume, from your choice of name, that you were violently bonked on one side of the head with a brake handle, shall we appoint a delegation to stop by and bonk you on the other side in an effort to restore whatever it is that needs restoring? :-)
(With apologies to heypaul)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Absolutley not. My love for this particular subway car was formed with a sound mind. No "corrective" re-educating is needed!
LOL
Everyone has his or her own taste. I know you didn't care for the R-10s even though I extol them to the heavens. That's cool.
No, Chris, nobody's used Mr. R16 yet (R10 taken by W.A.Padron, R68A-5200 taken, Slant R40, well, you know who THAT is :o> )
I, too, enjoyed the R16s, but only from an aesthetic point of view. They had interesting interior and exterior features. And they didn't screech on curves (not even on the S curve north of Cortlandt when they ran on the "EE" and "RR"), they had a thin, hissing sound unique only to them and their R17 cousins. Their round storm-door windows, transverse seating, curved handholds and multicolored roll signs (installed in 1970), not to mention the odd sloped pockets installed to cover the replacement door mechanisms were all things I fondly remember about them. Performance-wise, they were rather sluggish in express service (I rode a few on both the "E" and "F"), but that didn't bother me - there were plenty of local routes for them to ply.
They did all right there. The 6300 series cars seemed to go faster than the 6400s for some reason.
My most vivid memories of the R16 were of them on the "EE" line, and the May 20, 1970 wreck of #6304 at Roosevelt Avenue.
Erik and Harry (along with the others at Kingston) are close to completing a stunning restoration of R16 #6398, in the original 1954 Olive Drab paint scheme. Check out their website. There's a link to the site in the thread that contains the "Old Photos" posted yesterday.
#6387 is at the Transit Museum, in Charcoal Grey and a blue interior (very nice), complete with authentic peeling white ceiling paint (wouldn't be an R16 without a peeling ceiling). First time I saw her, I got goose bumps all over. She needs some metalwork on the body, but is otherwise in pretty good shape.
Wayne
Could you please list the link to the website of the R-16 restorers?
See http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmny6398.html
There are also some photos of the car at http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmnyvol.html.
I'm glad an R16 is getting some of the accolades it deserves. The expression "too much of a good thing" may apply here; we don't know what we have until we lose it!
As a kid from the Bronx, accostomed to seeing the "skinny" kid, The IRT, what a surprise it was to stumble across the BMT Jamaica line one afternoon in 1962 and find a fat version of what I was used to seeing. Yes, it was the R16. And riding over the Willie-B for the first time, skipping over the switches at Marcy and up the express. Pure joy!! Told other friends about it, making several trips a week to Chambers St to catch these strange cars. Imagine the surprise at pulling into B'way-Myrtle, looking up and seeing the "Q" for the first time. Oh, railfaning was pure heaven back then.
I had seen the R16 on the old TA subway map, back when they would print a picture "Subway car, latest model" on the back. Knew someday I'd find them.
Good luck with the restorations.
Joe C
My cousin in Montreal had an early 60s subway map with a picture of a then-new R-27 with a new Southern Division letter marking, possibly QB, but I can't remember for sure. I wonder if he still has that map...
That's right. From my recollection, and going thru my collection of stuff, the TA did that with the R16, R27, R29, all taken from TA stock photos. The W.F. bluebirds were actually drawn on the cover of the W.F. map.
Joe C
Thanks for that link. My namesake looks to be in the hands of caring railfans. May she run forever.
What's the latest word on 6398? Are there any planned runs open to the public in the near future? Kingston is well within driving distance of NYC.
I'd love to see an operational R16, as it appeared when they were delivered. My memories of them are of grafitti covered, filthy messes.
They did have an unusual sound, which is the main reason I liked them. I haven't heard it since 1987. If only heypaul recorded sounds of an R16 on the LL that day ...
The #15 train I took back in 1967 featured clean, olive drab R-16s. This was before they received the new door engines and slanted door pockets.
This must set a record.
Within an hour and a half of each other, we have announcements of the last two-man trains in two major cities: London and Chicago.
So where are there still conductors in the U.S. or elsewhere?
When I rode CTA cars on the P&W Norristown Line maybe 5 years ago, they actually were worked by a two-person crew, which seemed absurd, maybe they couldn't be worked OPTO. Does Philly have any more two-person crews?
I don't think so. I think the El was the last two-man holdout and with the M-4, it's OPTO now.
SEPTA's Broad Street Subway & Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated are OPTO. Oddly, It is not slow at al like in NY. PATCO is also OPTO. In Philly, It's "What's a conductor?"
It's a shame!
It is not
Technology has always been involved in replacing humans.
During my one visit to the Branford Trolley Museum, the museum guide pointed out that trolleys once had conductors, before a technical innovation that allowed rear doors to be operated safely by the driver. Subways once had more than one conductor, before doors could be opened from one spot.
That's how productivity works. To me the question is not whether we should eventually go OPTO on the subway, if technical improvments such as ATO and cameras can increase safety and reduce the burden on the T/O. The question is, how can we go to OPTO on the commuter railroads?
The answer is never. Commuter railroad are just that, a railroad and under the jurisdiction of the FRA. The FRA mandates 2 man crews for every train. Even in the commuter RR could be comverted to a fare control barrier system they'd still have to have a #2 man somewhere in the train. However, don't think that railroads are now making progress or are olf fashioned. With de-regulation in the early 80's trains went from 5 man crews to a 2 man crew. The 5 man crews consisted of an engineer, fireman, breakman (sometimes 2), condustor and a flagman.
2 men would be great productivity for a commuter train. Especially when you consider that the fare control for commuter rail requires a lot less people at stations.
I suppose at rush hour it might be more efficient to make a fare-control system where you can't get on the train without paying. But be prepared for a big capital cost to make that possible at all those stations. This would also be an excuse to close lesser used stations, which would not be such a bad thing (it would increase avg. speed) except that outside of Septa territory, there are not many excess stops, and parking is so short anyways.
But the emphasis should be on reducing the conductors on trains. I don't think this is really a technology issue. I'm afraid it is mostly a union issue. Especially in Philadelphia...
POP like in Newark would be good
You are obviously anti-union.
If anti-union means anti-useless employees, then I guess he (and I) is (are). It's not their duty to employ people for the sake of employment. Transit agencies are not in the business of workfare.
[To me the question is not whether we should eventually go OPTO
on the subway, if technical improvments such as ATO and cameras can increase safety and reduce the burden on the T/O. The question is, how can we go to OPTO on the commuter railroads?]
That would require different methods of fare collection, such as POP with roving fare inspectors or even the installation of turnstiles at stations.
Right you are Larry, and the prototypes should be the Metra Electric in Chgo and MN & LI in Ny. Metra already has faregates(electronic although of some uncommon type) The question really is when will MTA figure out using Metrocard compatible equipment? As to historical precedent(shame) some of us remember two man trolley cars in Chicago. The story goes that CTA tried to get the union to see its way to OPTO on the PCC's to no avail. The result buses, and the trolleys were traded in to ST Louis for 6000 class L cars. This is 2000 AD I for one prefer OPTO to buses or no transit. That does not mean I wish the individual worker to be shafted, but that is what collective bargaining units are for.
Chicago did have some one-person operated PCC cars. Some of the pre-war PCC fleet was converted. These cars operated on Cottage Grove until that line quit, then were moved to Western Avenue, where one-person cars operated seven days a week, replacing two-person cars run five days, with buses on the weekend. Broadway-State (later Broadway) and Clark-Wentworth (finally Wentworth) were two-person to the end.
But Metra Electric for some reason checks everyone's ticket on the train in addition to the turnstile control. So they have the rapid transit's inconvenience of having to pay your fare before you board the train (you can't just run for the train if it's coming and you don't have a pass or ticket) and having to slide a card into the turnstile slot AND the commuter rail's expense of trainmen to walk through the train checking tickets. Worst of both worlds!
I suspect that Metra would rather have one consistent fare-collecting system -- the commuter rail model -- but they are "stuck" with the card machines and turnstiles that were initiated under Illinois Central ownership of the Electric line. Though ticket dispensing machines (even without turnstiles) would make possible ticket sales at unmanned suburban and outlying city stations (most Metra stations are unmanned, so any "token agents vs. MVMs"-style controversy doesn't apply), Metra has never installed such machines on any line other than the Electric.
I don't follow this.
If the tickets are checked at the turnstiles and then again 100% by the train crew, why don't they just eliminate the turnstiles?
If turnstiles and high platforms at every station were provided, then it would be easy.
Its not as easy as one might think. For fare control to work you need two things. Turnstyles and a complete seperation of the ROW and the outside with chainlink and barbed wire. If you just have hi-levels only, ppl will just walk down the ROW and hop onto the platforms.
The question is, how can we go to OPTO on the commuter railroads?
Why is this important?
As I was working in E180st yard, I got a chance to go in the (T/O-C/R) cab, they were explaining different features to me.(Even though they don't want anyone next to the train,They thought I was the T/O to test the train, but let me see the train anyway.Nice Guys! )
One thing is that now the train has a built in radio , Control Center can talk to the passengers if need be. Also Announcements are made by the computer, and if the Conductor or Train Operator want they can over ride the Announcement from the computer.
>>Control Center can talk to the passengers if need be.
Hmm, seems someone has been hanging around SURFACE branch of the TA no?? The depots on Staten Island do that all the time now but I don't experience it much in Brooklyn.
A snow emergency train of two diesels and 5 R62As from the Pelham Line made their way from Westchester Yard to East 180th St Yard this afternoon just before the start of the rush hour. If icy conditions persist as a problem on the Dyre Line, the train will be utilized with diesels as the primary power and passenger cars being nothing more than coaches to accomodate the people (motors are cut out during this function). Also expect snow emergency trains to be assigned to the Sea Beach and Brighton Lines composed of 4 R68s and two diesels in the event of inclement weather. The Rockaway Line would also get a snow emergency train with two diesels and 4 passenger cars. An ERA bulletin states that R68s would be assigned to the Snow Emergency Train for Rockaway sercvice, but what I can't understand is why the R44s (from 207th St Yard) couldn't fill in? With that in mind all R68s assigned to the special train(s) come out of Coney Island Yard.
-Stef
There were running the Rail Adhesion Car all along the Brighton Express Tracks. I saw it go back and fourth 3 times.
That was the R30 gel car being pushed by a set of R32s, no?
-Stef
Did #8885 get out in the snow today to apply her gel to the rails?
Wayne
I'm sure it has, but I haven't seen it up at East 180th St Yard. Perhaps they've stored it somewhere in 239th St Yard? You haven't seen a peculiar IRT Gel Car roaming the B Division have you?
Speaking of which, the De-Icer Car, RD345 was on the road this evening sandwhiched between diesels and doing what it knows best - spraying alcohol on the 3rd Rail.
-Stef
I saw some engines doing plow work, Engine-TransitionCar-Engine and they just ran up and down Brighton last night. Sorry didn't get any numbers.
I did NOT see teh RAT on the Brighton though.
Hi all,
I've updated a new map to replace current map that looks like 1979-1997 official map. This new map are based on "Time-based" maps that was online since 1997 but into one map. I will no longer update time-based maps till in the near future.
This map reflects no C service, E extended to Euclid and B to 168th St. I already done March 2000 edition if things are back to normal and when I don't have time to update, I can file attach to Dave and he can post it at that time.
Again, since nobody is perfect, email me if you find any error(s) on my new map.
Thanks all.
Mike the Mailman in Denver, Colorado enjoying mild weather so far *BUT* may have snow in the next few days :-) hope NYC mailmen/women are alright out there!
adler@nycsubway.org
adler1969@aol.com
Great map! I was wondering if you might make available to SubTalk users the process by which this map can be edited so that we may post our own dream versions of the NYC subway.
>>Great map! I was wondering if you might make available to SubTalk users the process by which this map can be edited so that we may post our own dream versions of the NYC subway.<<
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Thanks. No, I do not give permission for anyone to edit any of my maps anymore due to the fact some people took my maps, removed my name from my map and slapped their name/copyright info as well as a company, Vibratech took my map for their Ad without asking me first and I still am waiting for their aplogy from Vibratech (www.vibratech.com) which they still never did! They are hiding behind their hotshot corporate lawyers and the ad company swears they got this specific map from official MTA site *BUT* don't have copy in hand, which in FACT that map they used is 101% mine, you could tell big difference!
So hope you understand why I refuse to give permission nowdays. But no one is stopping you from making your own maps, so go for it!
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
adler@nycsubway.org
adler1969@aol.com
I say SUE them.
Mike,
Why don't you take the offending corporation to small claims court? It will cost you practically nothing and take a minimum of your time, but cost them a mint to try to defend themselves in your town. You can ask for only small damages (monetary or otherwise, but from what I read in your message you're not looking for much). They'll opt for the easy way out -- offering you the apology and/or minor compensation to get you off their backs. It's a good ploy that has worked for a lot of "little people" that get stomped on by mammoth companies.
Todd,
Just wondering, do you ever read/post on the radio message board?
Joe C
Yes, I look at the radio board sometimes. But SubTalk is more fun!
Todd, was/ is Ray Rossi, now on Y107, a railbuff? heard him do a report one evening on newsradio 88. Talking about a service diversion on the BMT Astoria line, he mentioned the lucky people getting to ride slant R40's. Almost dropped my dinner dishes!
Joe C
Yes, indeed, Joe! Ray is a rail fan. We had a running joke two summers ago; on nice days he'd introduce me, then I'd respond with "Gee, Ray, it's a great day to ride a Slant 40 over the Manhattan Bridge for that terrific view of Manhattan!" And he'd come back with some remark about standing at the RAILFAN WINDOW. I'm pleased he's moved on to Y107, but I miss working with him. It was truly Transit & Weather Together!
[no one is stopping you from making your own maps, so go for it]
I wouldn't even know where to start. Do you think you could at least post the process by which the you make the maps so that all of us SubTalkers can create our dream systems?
I have ridden a R-68 D today around 11:00. I thought it was another normal ride that will only get to 30. Well was I wrong! this train took off got to 37mph at 86 Street, 40mph by by 96, and 45mph b/t 103 and 110, and then it slowed down like all trains do b/t 116 and 125 becuase of the curves. It was quick. I loved it, I wish I had that driver more often in the afternoon so that I can get home faster!
Christopher Rivera
P.S this one gave a No#4 line R-62 a run for it's money! Maybe?
The train took over two miles (20 city blocks per mile; from 59th Street to 103rd Street is 44 blocks) to get to 45 mph from a standing start, and that's fast? The train gained a whopping 3 mph from 86th Street to 96th Street (a half mile), and that's fast?
David
It doesn't matter if the R 68 is slow. The important part about the
R68A class is that the fit-and-finish is the best of any of the car
classes. The important part of the regular R68 class is that they always smell, and that their fit-and-finish is cheap. By the way, the 5500-5900 class F,R,etc. also always smell.
The R68A is the nicest car to ride, by far. It is also the best looking.
Eli.
The R68a car numbers are from 5000 to 5200. Only 200 cars were bought from Kawasaki Heavy in 1988 to 1990.The cars you are refering to are the R46 out of Jamaica Yards
Yes, because the 68A's have factory-installed PineScent
air fresheners hanging in the air plenum :)
Yeah!
Some thoughts onthe R68 from me: They DO smell, like garlic all the time. Very sickening.
What is wrong with their PA systems? Always seems like the conductor has the mike open. Constant humming and other loud noises.
The exterior finish on the 68 looks horrible. Much improved on the 68A.
Many R68's have been "flying " up and down the CPW run. Good operators are part of the phenomenon and clear tracks. Coming south, actually ran through 81st and 72nd, overtaking the "B" and made it into 59th FIRST!!! Keep up the good work, TA. Your finaly getting the meaning of RAPID transit.
One other note: the builder plates on the R68 usually read like: Westinghouse/ AMrail, Jumont Schneider. Rode one on the "N", car 2806 I think, which had "Alsthom" in red letters on it. How come?
Joe C.
Different sub-builders.
W-A is (or was) a consortium.
Are these cars compatible?
Joe C
Yes. There is a clear defining line between them (number ranges don't overlap). Mr. Slant R-40 should know.
In my experience, the 7 has the worst smells, mixture of BO and something else I cant identify...
The R68 interior is way too bright. Otherwise, it's a pleasure to ride.
Hopefully, they will be retro-fitted with that new black flooring now installed in a handfull of R68A cars. This would ease the glare problems caused by all that shiny, exposed metal.
Since the original IND cars, R-1...9, were known to exceed 55 on that stretch, 45 doesn't seem fast. Given the watered down systems of the present, though, the trains are doing well. Unfortunately, with the lack of field shunting, and grade timers around every curve, the system will never operate the way it did when new! At least Steve has those D cars running well.
You have to admit that there are concessions though, that did not exist up until a few years ago. While the R1-9 and R10's plus all the other R-types to follow did indeed fly up the CPW, they hit those grade timers at about 86th-96th. No train went down grade at 103rd like they do today, especially if the road is clear. I remember just sitting in 103rd watching trains; the s/b flew through; the n/b tip-toed down that grade.
Joe C
I rode on perhaps three express R-1/9 trains along CPW, and they were all D trains. F# or G above middle C was about as high as those bull and pinion gears would get up to, which equates to about 45 mph.
Sad to say, all that extraneous stuff has taken the word "rapid" out of rapid transit, that's for sure.
How did you see the Speedometer?
The conductor (which is really rare) came out of the box and stood with door open he kept it open becuase the way the train was moving he would have to come back soon,and the train was empty and from where I was seated i saw the speedometer. Hey who wants to be cooped up in a 3 by 8 or 9 foot room. You want to do that. and he stood out the whole trip b/t 59 and 125. Hey you should be happy. Also we raced a B R-62A head car #5200(if we can call it a race, hey if they are going from station to station 59 to 72. 5200 passed us and then it bit our dust. Sorry, gave a good run though!
Don't you mean R68A - 5200? Not R62A.
yes
R-68A #5200 is fast
but not fast enough
In defense of the R68A, it's not a sluggish as the R68. I'm a firm believer that the higher the R68 number gets, the slower the car is. The R68 2500 series seems to move better on the D line than the 2800 series does on the N.
Anything on the D runs faster than what's on the N! Typically BMT, slow all the way! If as you say the speed difference in high vs low numbered R68's, there'd be some problems running 2500's with 2700's, like on the D. Perhaps you have something there, after all. That could be the reason those cars can't get out of their own way!
Joe C
37 mph at 86th St? The R-10s would be at 40 mph by the time they'd get to 72nd St. By the time you'd get to 81st St., you were at full speed, 50 mph or thereabouts. There I go again......
If that train did in fact get up to 45 mph, STOP THE PRESSES!!!
R-10. Music to my ears. Remember how they would get that speed up passing 72nd, than hit that switch outside 81st? Bouncing and swaying. People would be in the aisles! And NEVER a derailment, never ran a timer. Class, all the way.
Now, I'm howmeward bound. Board my D at Dekalb for my "swift" run up to Bedford Park. YAWN!!!!!
Joe C
isn't bedford park a great station. I get on at there station to go home. It would be better if crew changes would not take place there.
Christopher,
Bedford Pk is one of those unusual Concourse stations. The trains always did have crew changes there. Remember a few years ago when they reversed the change to the "uptown" side? Put that into the TA's "Things we'd like to forget" department. Those northbound trains were tied up all the way to Manhattan. I hope the brain responsible for that is cleaning toilets today.
I use that station all the time.
Joe C
Joe, you want that experience again? Take the LIRR Main Line to Hicksville. And the switches between Bellrose & Floral Pk are like the W81 St switches. And if its underground speed you seek, ride the stretch on the Brooklyn Line between E.NY and Jamaica. And if you're at the railfan window, try to see if you could find the old Woodhaven Station.
Jeffrey,
Thanks for the info. When I read your first sentence, I thought you were suggesting I smoke something, or that there was going to be some sort of fan trip. But, yes, the LIRR can deliver in the speed department. Will try those rides.
Joe C
it's all about passenger safety not being in an amusement park.
It was always about passenger safety. Just executed differently.
Joe C
The R-10s would still be gathering speed while skipping 72nd St. By the time they passed that switch just before 81st St, they were smoking. You had the feeling that nothing could stop that train. I would be standing at the railfan window just soaking it all in. That was one of life's little pleasures. And the R-10s weren't all that noisy back then. Not excruciatingly so, anyway. I never had to hold my ears on a CPW express dash, which is more than I can say about the State St. subway in Chicago. OI VAY!!
There's one thing I can't wait to sample: our new light rail extension in Denver. The stations are widely spaced, about 1.8 miles apart on the average, with the last three stations being something like 2.3 miles apart apiece. At 55 mph, it's going to be one helluva ride! That's another tidbit from my upcoming article.
As for those certain 75-footers getting up to 40 mph on that stretch, I'll believe it when I see it.
"As for those certain 75-footers getting up to 40 mph on that stretch, I'll believe it when I see it."........
MUST HAVE BEEN A GOOD TAIL WIND.
I'll need to revist Denver; its been a few years. The LRT was just great. The extensions, if anything like Portland's MAX, would be terrific.
Right now, the Southwest Corridor, basically an 8.7-mile extension of the original line, is set to open in July. The shortest distance between stations is about 0.9 miles, the greatest, 2.3 miles or so. These numbers aren't exact. I just watched my odometer as I drove alongside the new line along Santa Fe Drive.
Rough estimates:
I-25/Broadway to Evans Ave.: 1.6 miles.
Evans Ave. to Hampden Ave.: 1.6 miles.
Hampden Ave. to Oxford Ave.: 0.9 miles.
Oxford Ave. to Littleton Blvd.: 2.3 miles.
Littleton Blvd. to Mineral Ave.: 2.3 miles.
RTD is touting this extension as being the equivalent of an express bus line, which is why they want to implement zone fares once it opens. They figure if you're stuck in traffic on Santa Fe and see a light rail train zoom by at 55 mph, you'll want to take it next time.
Funny, I rode that CPW stretch probably hundreds of times in the late 60's, early 70's, but never on an R-10. I worked at Yankee Stadium and always took the "D". No reason to ever take the "A". So I was usually on an R1-9 or newer car. The R1-9's really flew also. By the way, I remember as a kid with my grandparents waiting at the 81st Street Station after going to the Museum of Nat Hist and used to love it when the express went through. It was better than any funhouse.
Funny, I rode that CPW stretch probably hundreds of
times in the late 60's, early 70's, but never on an
R-10. I worked at Yankee Stadium and always took
the "D". No reason to ever take the "A". So I was
usually on an R1-9 or newer car. The R1-9's really
flew also. By the way, I remember as a kid with my
grandparents waiting at the 81st Street
Station after going to the Museum of Nat Hist and
used to love it when the express went through. It
was better than any funhouse.
PLEASE NOTE my last E mail salaamallah has DUMPED all of my last messages about the railfan window vidieos
i have recorded last november and i want to get back with you but you know HOW THE COMPUTER WORLD WORKS !!!
so you can still ask questions about my vidieo information at salaamallah@yahoo.com
OR YOU CAN E MAIL ME AT asiaticommunications@mailcity.com
i still have # 7 FLUSHING DAY AND NIGHT # 2 - 5 A Q E TRAIN shot end to end !!!
thank you no need to respond to SUBTALK JUST E MAIL ME DIRECTLY thank you !!!
sitll taking requests on railfan window vidieo tapes !!! thank you !!
So? Can I still send an e-mail message while masquerading as my own parent?
Don't know if you caught it, but (as a result of the contract) NYC Comptroller said a 35 cent fare rise may be needed this year unless ridership continues to soar and/of spending is cut. That's two Comptrollers, City and State, who have predicted fare increases.
Sounds like they are daring the state to increase operating subsidies rather than fully funding the capital program.
I expect that the 35c rise is just a ruse to get us to accept a 10c or 25c raise in the fare. But I expect the raise would be limited to those whoeither don't use metrocards, or don't pay for multiple fares.
-Hank
Want my 35 cents??
Then keep the REDBIRDS alive!!
Want my 35 cents??
Then keep the REDBIRDS alive!!
Yeah,I geuss that would be true...since we wouldn't be saving $50 M in electricity bills with the R142s. -Nick
Want my 35 cents??
Then keep the REDBIRDS alive!!
Want my 35 cents??
Then keep the REDBIRDS alive!!
Yeah,I geuss that would be true...since we wouldn't be saving $50 M in electricity bills with the R142s. -Nick
I'm sure the fare would go up for Metrocard holders too, only we would still get discounts: ie, if the fare goes to $1.75, we would pay $17.50 to get 11 rides. I would guess that the 7 day would go to $19.00 and the 30 day to either $68 or $70.
Does anyone know where the tracks east of the #2,5 lines at E180th that go only about 300 yds are from? The trestle looks as if it is on the way down. They stop right where there is currently a construction site.
Those are the remains of the New York, Westchester and Boston Railway's connection with it's parent line, the New York, New Haven and Hartford. Until a few years ago, the structure continued a bit further south, joining up with the right-of-way which is now the Amtrak Northeast Corridor line. See the section about the NYWB here on NYC Subway Resources. Briefly, the section of the NYWB from 180th St. to the NYC limits became today's Dyre Ave. line.
It seems that the structure is slated for demolition. The concrete decking has been removed from the first half block or so south of 180th St. station. I know that this concrete was in very bad shape, and that therefore trains could not be stored on most of the structure for quite a few years. But if the underlying steel is in good shape (and it was certainly built quite solidly), why not build a standard wooden elevated-line type of decking on it once the concrete is removed? With four tracks running from 180th St. to 177th St., they should be able to store eight trainsets (80 cars) there, or at least something approaching that. Since storage space for subway cars will be at a premium in the next few years, wouldn't this make sense?
Kind of stupid to demolish this spur when storage yard space is at a premium.
When the buildings dept says it's unsafe and an engineer determines it's unrepairable, down it comes.
-Hank
It was in that bad of a condition?
No, the building department likes to play tricks with people...
Its really a practical joke gone sour...
So if this is the case,does anybody think the TA will ever rebuild the removed sections when[and if]the Second Ave Bronx section is built?
Um, no. Does that question really even have to be asked?
If you dont ask, how are you suppose to know the answer to the question,fella?
Actually, we kinda thought you answered it yourself :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/27/2000
The NEW NYCTA Coliseum bus depot is sitting on the recently demolished NYW & B structure ROW, so this seals the fate of the Second Avenue subway using this structure.
Bill Newkirk
It's reassuring to know that the MTA/NYCT is quietly sabotaging completion of the 2nd Ave Subway by expropriating its ROW for other purposes.
This all assumes that the Dyre Line would be the northern extension of the 2nd Av. Subway. Another possibility would be a subway under 3rd Av to replace the El removed in 1973, or an express run up beyond the present end of the Pelham Line to Co-op City. (Both much more expensive to build than a new structure to hook up at 180th)
Ayuh, can't get theah from heah...
Why would they put a subway on 3rd Av in the Bronx when they took the el down because of low ridership? Third Av is too close to the IND "D" and the IRT Jerome Av Lines anyway.
It is NOT.
A subway under Third Avenue and Boston Road would be a suitable replacement for the West Farms El.
It certainly would be. And you know what, there are two suitable areas near 174th Street to build a portal to have this subway link into the existing el just south of East Tremont Avenue. I can't stand how slow the ride over the West Farms el is. MTA, give the central Bronx a fast subway ride under Boston Road!
I hate this line as well, with it's assortment of curves and downright dangerous gaps between trains and platform edges. But I'll never see this el replaced with a 4 track subway in my lifetime. If the city can't even build a new subway it desperatly needs (2nd Ave.) then what are the odds of it building a subway to replace an existing el?
01/27/2000
"What are the odds of it building a subway to replace an existing el?"
I don't know, but what are the odds of building a full Second Avenue subway? This is not New Jersey where they plan and build a Light Rail Line to be opened in March. This is New York, where we do things BASS ACKWARDS !!
Bii Newkirk
E. Tremont Ave. station is part of the original IRT (Contract Two?). If they built a new line and connected it as you say, that one station (and the approach to it) would be a bottleneck preventing B-division equipment from operating on the line. Better they should make the connection just north (geographically east) of E. Tremont Ave. station, on the east-west segment which crosses the Bronx River.
It would be, the ramp would more logically be at 180.
It would be Contract I through the East Tremont Avenue Station,north of that its Contract III. Contract II was the ran from Brooklyn Bridge to Atlantic Avenue and included the South Ferry Loop.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, this would be an ideal place to build a subway line. The Bx55 bus is already way to crowded. I would'nt imagine that the entire route of the old el would be followed, because the Webster Ave. portion was somewhat close to the Concourse line. Perhaps a line up 3rd Ave. to 180th St, then turning east along this street until it gets to the E180th St. yard, then it could emerge from underground and run to Dyre.
Yes, a pipe dream, but what else are you gonna do ...
I understand Metro-North is contemplating a station at Co-Op City. The thought here being that they'd send some New Haven service into Penn Station once the LIRR gets into GCT. Long range, conceptual stuff, but interesting.
I also recall reading sometime in the early 70s that the TA/MTA wanted some sort of semi-rapid transit service on the Harlem Line as a form of replacement for the 3rd Ave El. I dont know if they would have linked this with 2nd Ave or what, the plans changed quite frequently then. There were quite a few Bronx local stations in the NY Central days. I also don't know if they were really serious, or if it was just a concept that they thought about but quickly forgot.
If they could appropriate two of the tracks along the Harlem/New Haven line for subway use (putting a fence between them and the other tracks, like they did on the Red Line in D.C. to avoid FRA regulations), you could cut the cost of a Second Ave. extension in the Bronx sharply, and add new stations right at Fordham University and the Bronx Zoo. Run it up to Gun Hill Road, and you could then justify extending the D over there, allowing people in the Upper Central Bronx a faster subway ride into Manhattan (assuming there would only be three or four Bronx stops along the Metro North ROW).
The Dyre Avenue line was supposed the Bronx branch for the 2nd Avenue Subway. But I guess that's not going to happen now. MTA short-sightedness strikes again!
Doug,
Welcome to SubTalk. Feel free to ask as many questions to your heart's content about the NYC Subway System.
In reference to your question, the tracks located to the east of 2/5 tracks 180th St once belonged to a small commuter operation called the New York, Westchester, and Boston Railway. In operation from 1912-37, the line ran between Portchester, NY and 133rd St at the Harlem River. Despite it's name, it never ran to Boston. It ran along what is today the Dyre Avenue #5 line. The track that you see before you at the East 180th St proceeded south past the Cross Bronx Expwy and connected with Amtrak's North East Corridor nearby (formerly the New Haven Railroad in the 1960s). The service was closed in 1937 due to bankruptcy. The track remained closed for 4 years until the city purchased the line in 1941. It became a part of the NYC Transit System and shuttle trains to Dyre Av operated on the old platform from 1941-57, and finally became the 2 7th Av Express in 1957.
After 1957, the old New York, Westchester, and Boston Tracks through the old 180th St Station remained unused by passengers, but was used for the storage of trains. In some cases, did you know that along this old track cars were scrapped, and new ones were delivered into the system through the connection with the North East Corridor? The connection to Amtrak was severed sometime in the 60s and those tracks ended at a bumping block in the vicinity of 177th St even though the ramp down to the NEC was still in place. The ramp was recently demolished for a construction project there. The last I heard, a new bus depot was being built. In 1999, the structure south of 180th St was declared structurally unsound and is being torn down presently. Subway cars and work equipment is no longer stored here. The concrete which supported the track was ripped up in part. I'd expect the rest of the structure to come down at some point.
For more information, check this site as it is a reliable reference tool.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope this helps.
Stef
Well, so much for the Dyre Avenue line being linked into the 2nd Avenue Subway, as was proposed in the last MTA plan for the 2nd Avenue Subway (1968).
That's bull
The structure would have to completely replaced anyway. Demolishing it is actually a step TOWARDS using it.
A new rail line is being built in Pavonia/Newport, a section of Jersey City. This can be seen from the mall overpass, and it looks like the line will be serving the stores in the area. Is this a new venture by NJT, or some other agency? From the looks of things, the line may open in the summer.
[A new rail line is being built in Pavonia/Newport, a section of Jersey City. This can be seen from the mall overpass, and it looks like the line will be serving the stores in the area. Is this a new venture by NJT, or some other agency? From the looks of things, the line may open in the summer.]
It's a section of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. There should be information about the line elsewhere on NYC Subway Resources.
I finally got to ride the #7 Express this evening. I noticed that the contact shoes were arcing heavily along certain stretches of track due to snow or ice conditions. Does that corrode or pit the shoe or the third rail? How often are contact shoes replaced or resurfaced? Does the MTA ever get complaints from people living next to a gap in the third rail, that there is interference with AM radio reception when the shoes arc over.
heypaul, very good and thoughtful questions. Unfortunately, I am not well versed in that area, so I'll have to pass.
I was thinking this was going to be one of your humorous/silly posts again.
Nice surprise.
Although I miss a good diversion every now and then.
Doug aka BMTman
I've always had a certain fascination with the arcing produced by the contact shoes over the third rail. In my experience, Chicago's trains seem to be the most prolific arcers (is that a new word??), especially on the elevated portions and even more so after a good snowfall. And since the third rail on the CTA system lacks any sort of a cover, the arcing can be seen from quite some distance.
One of my favorite railfan spots is at the Diversey stop on the Brown Line. This stop is similar to the West Side IRT local stations in that it has four tracks and only two side platforms; Brown and Purple Line trains make the station stop, while Red Line trains proceed down the middle tracks usually at a rather high rate of speed.
My favorite moments are watching the Red Line trains from here on winter evenings. Early enough that the trains are still 8 cars long, but late enough that it's dark out, the arcing action is quite spectacular. The arcing is fairly constant throughout the entire length of the train once it reaches a certain speed.
The most severe arcing I've ever seen was soon after the Blizzard of '99; the third rail would have been completely buried in snow if not for the trains passing over it, and I happened to be riding in a 2200-Series car out to Forest Park. I was sitting directly over one of the trucks on the third rail side, and the arcing right below my window was bright enough to be seen reflecting off buildings several blocks away, and the loud crackling sound could readily be heard inside the train. (The train even stalled out a couple times along the way, and I breathed a sigh of relief when it finally pulled into the Forest Park terminal.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
heydavid---- Speaking of arcing, one of the most
intense moments that I have ever witnessed as a
railfan occurred by the Sunnyside Train Yards in
Queens. This was at a time when the GG1's were
still in service. I was looking down at the train
yards, and a G was either raising or lowering its
pantograph. It arced in a manner that was not just
a bolt of lightning. It was more like a searing
flame of fire from the pans to the wire. It seemed
more like a flame of life flowing to the venerable
G. I have never seen that in a photo or on a video,
but it remains etched into my mind....
I'd say, Yes, it does damage the rail and the shoes. Most of the sparks you see, especially those that make it to the ground are molten metal, and that metal has to come from somewhere.
Arcing occurs when shoe loses contact with the third rail. The voltage accross an inductive load, such as a motor, is L di/dt, where L is the inductance and di/dt is the time rate of change of the current. The di/dt term is what provides the voltage.
The arc represents a voltage drop of several thousand volts. Ionized gases (plasmas) are hot enough to vaporize any nearby metal. The sparks are bits of third rail or contact shoe. The metal surfaces become pitted as a result.
However, most damage is caused within the motor. The high induced voltage will seek the shortest electrical path to discharge. This is usually between adjacent windings in the motor by breaking down the wires' insulation. This causes motors to short out and fail.
There are solutions to completely eliminate this problem. A "freewheeling" diode provides a path to dischage the inductance, when power is removed. Silicon diodes of sufficient size for subway motor applications have been around for about 20 years. I'm surprised they have not been used, considering their very low cost in comparison to damage they prevent.
I'm not sure I agree with your analysis.
It is true that if you have, let's say, a mechanical switch
which applies a positive DC voltage to an inductive load, when you
open the switch, current stops flowing. The high di/dt means
that a large back-EMF will be generated. However, the polarity
of this voltage will be negative, i.e. the terminal of the load
which had been receiving the positive DC will now have a large
negative voltage on it. The inductance is, in effect, trying to
prevent you from changing the current flowing through it by
acting as a battery. Now, even though the switch is open, we
can imagine the path through the air gap of the switch, battery
and back to ground as having some large finite resistance.
The large L di/dt voltage will overcome this resistance and cause
current to flow. However, this type of arc is self-extinguishing
because the very fact that current is flowing diminishes the kick-back
voltage. Another way of looking at it: there is a certain amount
of energy (.5Li^2) stored in the magnetic field of the coil while
the normal load current is flowing. That energy is quickly dissipated
when the switch is opened in the form of a spark. Once the
energy is gone, the arc disappears.
The back-EMF problem is most notable when switching inductive loads
with solid-state devices because they have a certain reverse
breakdown voltage which, when exceeded, results in the device shorting
out. Freewheel diodes, as you said, can be used in such switching
circuits to provide a path for the back-EMF to discharge itself.
They are also sometimes used when the load is being switched
mechanically, or a small capacitor is used.
Simply hooking up a freewheeling diode across the traction motors
might seem like a good idea, but if you look at the circuit as
a whole, and consider the dynamic brake loop, it isn't going to
work out too well.
Getting back to the third rail: This is a related, but different form
of arcing, aking to the arc welding process. It happens when
high-current, high-voltage mechanical connections are opened.
Picture a switch delivering 600 volts to a purely resistive
load, such as an incandescent lighting circuit or a heater circuit.
Let's say the resistance is 6 ohms. When the switch is closed,
the contacts are making up solid and 100 amps is flowing through
them. Now let the switch open a tiny amount. There is, say,
one thousandth of an inch of air between the switch contacts.
In theory, this is an insulator. However, there is now a 600V
potential across this thin air space. Air, like any insulator, has
a finite dialectric breakdown. IIRC, it's about 1000 volts/inch.
So at one mil, the breakdown is .1 volts. The 600 isn't impressed
and quickly turns the air gap into an ionized, conductive path.
The same 100 amps keeps on flowing. At the same time, the metal
on the positive side of the switch is having it's electrons sucked
away and metal atoms follow the electric field and migrate across
the plasma path to the other side. This causes the pitting and
burning.
As long as current continues to flow, there is a path of ionized
gas (plasma) which is conductive. The voltage required to sustain
the arc is much, much lower than that required to strike it.
This is a problem. If you simply open the switch up to the 0.6 inch
theoretical spacing required to stand-off 600 Volts, the current
still flows because the arc has been struck. In the case of
the line switch, which is the big contactor that cuts off power
to the traction motors and goes SHPLOCK!, a magnetic blowout
is employed in conjunction with an arc chute. The former is
a few turns of heavy wire in series with the switch contacts.
The current which is flowing through the switch and the arc flows
through the blowout coil, setting up a magnetic field of the
proper orientation that the electrons, by Biot-Savart's Law,
are deflected away from the air gap. The arc then becomes a long
curve rather than a straight line, and the effective arc length
is increased. The resistance of the arc goes up with length
and at a certain point it can not sustain itself anymore and
goes out.
With a third rail shoe, striking a bit of dirt or ice on the
contact rail causes the shoe to momentarily bounce off. An
arc is struck, but it goes away when the shoe bounces back
on. If there is a continuous coating of ice, the car continues
to draw power through an arc. If the coating is thick enough,
the effective resistance may get high enough to drop out the
PTR. Once that happens, the traction current is interrupted by
the line switch, the arc is extinguished, and you're hosed because
now you can't get started again.
In my wildest fantasies, I didn't imagine that two electrical engineers would debate this issue. Jeff, you had me positively foaming at the mouth when you mentioned Biot-Savart's Law. Both my right hand and left hand received permanent injury back in Electricity Magnetism sections of physics. The left hand rules, and right hand rules, whether current was the flow of positive charges or negatives--- this brings back painful memories that will set back my minimal progress in psychotherapy over the last 30 years.
I hope Steven doesn't launch a rejoinder with Maxwell's Equations. I'll have to go study Differential Equations again, not that I ever understood anything about them the first time.
Your mentioning of plasma interested me as a possible explanation of the almost flame like searing arc that I once saw between the pans of a GG1 and the overhead wires in Sunnyside Yards.
The arcing that a GG-1 does, will not happen with an AEM-7, BTW, because they pop the main breaker before moving the pans. It *will* happen with any Metro-North MU, and you can see this frequently at New Haven. Recomended viewing is towards the night, and on drizzly nights. Ice storms too are fun. *zap!*
The lack of a breaker is why the MP-54s and GG-1s, etc, cannot drop their pans in low wire areas.
BTW - I touched on this once before - the GG-1, MP-85, and a few other pieces of equipment would actually lock (up) and ground the pantograph under certain conditions, in order to remove catenary power. This could be manually initiated (via a panick button in the GG-1 - do transformers give warning before they cut loose?), or automatically initiated, which the MP-85 could due. This was overload protection. And likely very spectacular to see happen.
The power in an arc welder is supplied by a rectifier. There is a big series choke (inductor) in series one of the output leads as well as a large inductance in the transformer winding. This is what provides the kick to get the welder started, when the closed circuit is opened.
The field required to ignite a plasma in air is over 1 million volts/inch. A total potential drop across the plasma in air of 300 volts is also required for ignition. The sustaining field is around 1000 volts/inch, which is air's dielectric strength.
I do not think that your 1 mil gap with a purely resistive load is accurate for these reasons. I can suggest a simple experiment to resolve the matter.
First, use a neon lamp, such as an NE-2, for the gap. This has the advantage of scaling down the voltages to safe levels. The NE-2 and similar neon pilot lamps have a sustaining voltage of around 65 volts and an ignition voltage around 72 volts. Get a battery that is between the between the sustaining voltage and ignition voltage. Get a current limiting resistor for the neon lamp - around 27K. Place the battery a switch and the resistor in series. Place the neon lamp across the switch. Close the switch and open it. The lamp should stay dark throughout. Now place a large choke in series with resistor. And try again. The inductive kick should ignite the lamp and the battery should sustain it.
The switch and the neon lamp are analogous to the third rail contact and the near vicinity gap. We have shown the necessity for having an inductance for creating the plasma. A purely resistive load and supply will not create one.
You are ascribing third rail pitting to the Edison effect and not to the heat generated by the plasma. One would assume therefore that the third rail steel would be deposited on the shoe and that the shoe would not get pitted. On the other hand, if the pitting were generated by heat, then one might expect pitting on both the third rail and the shoe - in proportion to their melting points.
There is another complicating factor. Suppose a shoe makes only partial contact. There would be no gap and no plasma. However, third rail and shoe would be carrying more than their rated current capacity in the near vicinity where contact continued. This would cause these surfaces to heat up to the point that they would melt. The difference with this effect is that there would be sparks but no arc.
One would assume that manufacturers of equipment switch inductive loads know what they are doing. The third rail problem concerns a mechanism behaving like a switch, when it should not. A blowout coil will not work for this reason.
I think that you could place a freewheeling diode between the shoe and dc return without affecting the dynamic brakes. They do require third rail voltage and the separation of the rotor and stator windings to operate. Again, as you noted the entire circuit must be considered.
This seems to have broken into several subtopics.
The first is whether an arc can be struck without inductance.
I say if the supply voltage is high enough (you state the
figure of 300 volts for ignition which sounds plausible)
you don't need inductance. I can suggest the following extremely
unsafe experiment:
Connect a source of 600 volts (your local third rail or trolley
wire) through a simple knife switch to a purely resistive load,
for example a five-bulb cluster. Open the switch just a crack.
You will observe a blue arc. Now slowly open the switch. The
arc will be sustained until the switch is opened a large distance.
Yes, I've performed this experiment and its variants many times.
In fact every time I pull down the pole on a trolley car which
is standing still with nothing on except the lights, this can
be observed.
Second point: stick welders. Yeah, you're right, there's a big
choke. It's partly to give the extra kick needed to ignite,
and partly to provide filtering of the output. With that much
current (80-300 A) the only way to kill the ripple is with a big
inductor. Ripple cuts down on welding ease and quality.
If you've ever used a true DC welder (one powered by a motor-generator) you'd appreciate how much cleaner it is versus
a line-powered rectifier unit.
Third point: Arcing and pitting. You're right, the heat of the
plasma arc causes pitting. Metal flow does occur as well, though.
It's easier to see on a big 600V contactor like a line switch.
The armature (which is normally the load side) will have big globs
of re-frozen molten metal on its surface, while the stator will
sometimes have stalagmites where the metal was drawn towards
the retreating armature.
Fourth and most on-topic point: Fixing the third-rail shoe
arcing problem. I didn't mean to suggest a blow-out coil as
a solution. It would be kind of difficult to fit a coil and
an arc chute around the contact shoe :) The blow-out coil thing
was really an aside. I also thought you were suggesting putting
a diode across each motor, for the purpose of reducing stress
on the motor. Putting a freewheel diode from the contact shoe
bus to ground will absorb the back-EMF kick from the motors, but
for the reasons described above concerning resistive load arcing,
I don't believe it would stop the arcing when the shoes bounce.
Fifth extremely minor point: Dynamic brakes, as applied to
DC traction motors, do NOT require the third rail voltage to
operate. In fact (Steve, Erik et al. can confirm/elaborate
on this) on a subway train, when you go to dynamic brake, the
third rail voltage is disconnected from the motor circuit.
The motors are connected in a figure-8 cross-excited circuit
which depends on residual magnetism to get it started. E.g.
consider a fictional car having one series-wound motor. First
it is running, drawing power from the line. Current is flowing in
the field coils which creates a large magnetic field in the pole
pieces and the steel frame of the motor. Now the power is turned
off (we'll skip the arcing discussion :) and the car coasts for a
while with the motor open-circuit. Motor current is 0. However,
the iron in the motor still retains some small magnetization.
Now, plug the motor by connecting the field coil across the armature.
Because there is a residual magnetic field, the rotating armature
generates a small EMF. This causes a small current to flow through
the resistance of the armature and field windings. The current
through the field coils increases the field strength, which causes
more EMF, which causes more current, and so on.
Connect a source of 600 volts (your local third rail or trolley wire) through a simple knife switch to a purely resistive load, for example a five-bulb cluster. Open the switch just a crack. You will observe a blue arc. Now slowly open the switch. The arc will be sustained until the switch is opened a large distance.
Yes, I've performed this experiment and its variants many times. In fact every time I pull down the pole on a trolley car which is standing still with nothing on except the lights, this can be observed.
What is your 600 volt power supply? A rotary converter, diesel generator? Are you using solid state converter working from a 3-phase ac line off a transformer secondary winding? What about other loads attached to the trolley wire at the time you're conducting this experiment? These are all supplying inductance. These are providing the inductive kick to start the arc.
You noted that this effect occurs only when the circuit is opened. If a purely resistive circuit and switch could provide an electrical field sufficient to ignite a plasma, then it would also occur when the switch contacts went from open to nearly closed. That it arcs only when opening should signal that there is some inductance that is not being included.
Putting a freewheel diode from the contact shoe bus to ground will absorb the back-EMF kick from the motors, but for the reasons described above concerning resistive load arcing, I don't believe it would stop the arcing when the shoes bounce.
Clearly, establishing whether or not there really is any pure resistive load arcing is vital to finding a solution.
The major damage is not the pitting at the third rail or contact shoe; it's the dielectric breakdown in the insulation of the motor windings. The large back emf is induced across the motor. It will find the shortest electrical path. If it is discharged by the motor's internal resistance - fine; it may find a shorter electrical path by breaking down the dielectric in air (at the third rail contact) or through the insulation of adjacent wires in the motor. Finally, if the power is suddenly reapplied, then there is the danger of a sustained plasma - as you noted.
I agree with your point regarding residual magnetism and its role in providing some dynamic braking in the absence of power. I would assume that the amount of dynamic braking due to residual magnetisim is negligible, compared to when third rail power is available.
To help encourage you to pay closer attention to
these posts on electromagnetism, I am giving a 10
question surprise quiz. You may refer to the posts
as well as any books you may have on
Electromagnetism. ( My apologies to Jeff H &
Stephen Bauman for this silliness )
1 Explain in about 600 words why it is dangerous to
connect a NE-2 neon lamp to the 3rd rail.
2. Explain why a switch blade knife is not only
illegal but dangerous to use as a knife switch.
3. Using the left hand and right hand rules,
illustrate how a blow-out coil sets up a magnetic
field which deflects electrons from the air gap.
4. What's the unit of electric power? ( I can't
resist that question )
5. Refer to Jeff H's Thursday 03:03:00 post.
Explain how the last four sentences in the last
paragraph, seem to describe a perpetual motion
machine.
6. Explain using as many obscure terms as possible
why a subway car will fail to operate when the 3rd
rail power is off.
7. Comment on whether 3rd rail contact shoe arcing
could be eliminated by surrounding the 3rd rail with
a perfect vacumn.
8. Comment on whether the R142's use of a
mechanical rubber band propulsion system will
eliminate all problems of contact shoe arcing.
9. Apply the concept of back emf to explain how a
sudden change in the value of the American currency
might induce a dangerous force on the world economy.
10. Explain with at least 4 examples how the
Biot-Savart Law and Lenz's Rule for the direction of
induced voltage has helped you in your interpersonal relationships.
5. Refer to Jeff H's Thursday 03:03:00 post.
Explain how the last four sentences in the last
paragraph, seem to describe a perpetual motion
machine.
It's not perpetual motion. The part I didn't describe
is how the dynamic braking current causes a torque
which acts to slow down the motor. The mechanical
kinetic energy of the train is turned into electrical
energy, and then heat
I had hoped that an earlier post this morning by Jeff H. was a signal that he had discovered a perpetual motion machine. I immediately went out and bought a perpetual calender to keep track of when preventive maintenance would be due on these perpetual motion machines. But Jeff just clarified that original post. The Second Law of Thermodynamics still rules.
Perpetually speaking, I think that calendar is a great idea.
;-)
heypaul, just when you thought I was going to be serious....
...the unexpected happens.
Doug aka BMTman
A calendar has only 7 pages anyway.
This stuff on arcing reminds me of a home made Jacob's Ladder that I once had. It was made out of an old neon transformer, the electrodes being staightened out coat hanger wires.
If the electrodes were perfectly parallel, the arc would stay put, no climbing. If the electrodes were pitched into a V configuration, the acr would climb up nicely.
Is no.4 a question or a statement?
Aw Sarge....... Give me a break.
Question 4 was meant to be read aloud.
What's the unit of power.
The correct answer is: Naturally.
What? (watt)
NO, it's horsepower.
10. Explain with at least 4 examples how the
Biot-Savart Law and Lenz's Rule for the direction of
induced voltage has helped you in your interpersonal relationships.
10A. Explain how the left-hand and right-hand rules have helped
you in your intrapersonal relationships :)
Question 10A is a question best answered in the warm totally accepting milieu of one's therapist's office.
However, I must say I appreciate its spirit.
According to the classic work Gaseous Conductors, Theory
and Engineering Applications by J.D. Cobine (1941):
Interruption of Direct Current: Whenever the contacts of a switch
carrying a current are separated, an arc is established by
the high field and local heating at the last point of contact,
provided that the necessary minimum voltage exists in the circuit.
The chapter goes on to explain that for a purely resistive circuit,
the voltage drop across the contacts increases with the length
of the gap, and the current therefore decreases. At a certain point,
the arcing voltage equals the supply voltage and the arc is
extinguished.
For inductive circuits, the voltage kick occurs just before the
arc is extinguished, when the slope of the current decline is
greatest. The voltage will exceed the supply voltage, and will
peak at the extinguishing voltage for the length of the contact
gap at full open, just at the instant that current reaches 0.
The inductance does not ignite the arc, but it causes it to continue
even after the contacts have opened enough to extinguish a pure
resistive arc.
A snubber resistor or capacitor connected across the contacts will
reduce the arc current for both resistive and inductive loads.
A free-wheeling diode is useful for inductive loads only to clamp
the arc voltage to no greater than the supply voltage.
Your neon lamp experiment is apples and oranges, because the arc
that would struck in the neon bulb is purely the result of
high-voltage discharged, while the arc across switch contacts
is struck at a much lower voltage because of the localized
heating from the current that was flowing.
The same book also describes DC arc welding and states that the
series inductance is to filter ripple and to stabilize the arc
current which can otherwise fluctuate because of sputtering and
uneven localized heating effects.
As for the hypothetical case of arcing when contacts close, this
happens. There is a brief moment when the contacts are very
close to each other and the voltage/distance will exceed the
dielectric strength of air. However, this isn't too important
because the contacts will close shortly thereafter.
In all my readings on DC traction motor theory and practice, I've
never seen concern expressed over the breakdown of insulation from
kickback voltage when motor current is removed. Unlike compound
or shunt motors, the field coils in series motors do not have too
many turns. Perhaps I'll grab a portable LCR meter and try to
read the inductance of a traction motor. Insulation failures
on traction motors (at least the 600 volt variety) tend to be
caused by mechanical stress, thermal stress, penetrating moisture,
or dirt on the commutator.
Does Cobine state quantitatively how the voltage increases with the distance of the gap? It sounds like he is describing Paschen's Law. If this is the case, you may be surprised by how small the gap must be for ionization breakdown of air at normal temperature and pressure with a 600 volt supply.
The striking voltage, according to the book, is a non-linear
function of the pressure and the gap length.
The voltage decreases with the product of
gap length times pressure, however, there is a minimum. For
air at normal temperature this is stated as 337 volts. Squinting
at the chart, it looks like the gap needed for spark-over at 600
volts is about a tenth of a mm.
There is an old rule of thumb though that says leave 1 inch of
space between conductors for every 1kV between them. Maybe this
is to allow arc extinction if an arc is somehow struck by a surge.
The point of citing the reference was to show that the arc produced
when interrupting a DC current does not require a high voltage,
and/or inductance,to strike. Because current is already flowing,
as the contacts separate, there is tremendous local heating at the point of last contact and thus the air becomes plasma. Once that happens the arc continues to flow through the plasma. The voltage-distance relationship involves much lower voltages
to sustain the arc.
As I stated in the last post, inductance aggravates the situation.
Let's say we could make the contacts open very quickly to the
distance required to extinguish a pure resistive arc. As the
arc tries to go out, and current tries to go to 0, the inductance
creates additional EMF that raises the voltage across the gap
and allows conduction to continue for a while. The energy of
this process is not only the energy stored in the inductor, but
also the energy supplied by the supply voltage as a result of this
let-through current. The time constant increases as the inductance
goes up, so the higher the inductance, the longer the arc stays
lit and the more energy dissipated. A free-wheeling diode across
the inductor, equivalently, from the load side of the switch back
to return, clamps the gap voltage not to exceed the supply voltage
and makes the extinguishing characteristics nearly the same as
a resistive load.
The original, original point concerned arcing when third rail
shoes bounce or hit ice. The question was: does it damage the
shoes or the rail? Obviously it must cause some damage. I'd
like to hear from the Car Equipment folks about how much, in fact,
they have to worry about this. I deal mostly with overhead trolley
now..I've never had to change a pickup shoe. I have heard stories
about some large NY Central 600V locomotive (help me out folks,
was that an "S" motor or a "T" motor?) trying to pull a train around
the lower level loop track at Grand Central, moving very slowly
an under high load, gapping out resulting in the pickup shoes
becoming a pool of molten metal.
I think contact shoe arcing could be reduced with a condenser
and a resistor from the shoe bus to ground, but I have no idea
what values would be required.
Clearly, phenomena that require a gap of less than 0.1 mm, the thickness of a piece of paper, does not completely explain the visible arcing and consequent damage associated with third rail contact shoe bounce. In fact the 0.1 mm arc would not be easily visible.
Assume, a release sufficiently slow to permit an avalanche effect to take place - so that only a sustaining field of around 1000 volts/in need be applied. The maximum gap would be around 1/2 inch. This does not accurately describe arcing around third rails or trolley wires. Much higher excitation voltages are required to produce these phenomena. That voltage comes from the energy stored in motor and power supply inductance.
The weakness of using R-C and similar linear snubber circuits is that they draw power under ordinary, non-arcing conditions. Non-linear snubber circuits, such as those using a freewheeling diode, don't. Their presence in the circuit is limited to providing a discharge path for a charged inductor. At this time there is usually a significant significant cost advantage to using freewheeling diodes over the older R-C methods.
Clearly, phenomena that require a gap of less than 0.1 mm, the thickness of a piece of paper, does
not completely explain the visible arcing and consequent damage associated with third rail contact
shoe bounce. In fact the 0.1 mm arc would not be easily visible.
Assume, a release sufficiently slow to permit an avalanche effect to take place - so that only a
sustaining field of around 1000 volts/in need be applied. The maximum gap would be around 1/2 inch.
This does not accurately describe arcing around third rails or trolley wires. Much higher excitation
voltages are required to produce these phenomena. That voltage comes from the energy stored in motor and power supply inductance.
There are several ways to start arc conduction. If you start with
the contacts separated and no current flowing, then apply a high
voltage that's one way, by Paschen's Law if you will. For 600 V,
the maximum gap length for this to happen is indeed quite small
(looks like 0.046 mm). But I'm not suggesting that has anything to
do with third rail or trolley wheel arcing.
Another way to start an arc is to have the contacts made up, with
current flowing, and then separate them. At the moment the
last bits of metal are touching, the current density is enormous
in that spot and there is considerable local heating, enough to
heat the air to plasma and allow conduction. That's what causes
the arcing, and it does not require extremely high voltages.
It can be demonstrated in a purely resistive circuit.
When the contacts have opened so that the supply voltage is no
longer able to sustain the arc for that length, which we are taking
as 1000V/inch, then the arc will eventually go out. Below that
distance the arc will sustain as long as the supply voltage is
maintained. In fact, if we take 0.5 inches as the sustaining
distance on 600V supply, that corresponds well with empirical
evidence: If I pull down a trolley pole very slowly, I can
hang an arc indefinitely if I keep it about 1/2 inch or less from
the wire. More than that and the arc goes out.
The damage done by the arc can be considered proportional to
the total energy dissipated during its duration. When inductance
is present, it drags out the fall-off of arcing current after the
contacts have opened to the breaking distance, thus increasing the
total energy. The graphs in Cobine's book show pretty clearly that
the Ldi/dt kick occurs not at the initial contact opening, but
towards the end of the arcing as current falls to 0.
You're right about snubbers. Nobody uses them anymore because
they are much bulkier than a solid-state diode. An R-C snubber
can help with mitigating the resistive portion of the arc, but
modern practice is to simply make the contacts break very fast.
Another way to start an arc is to have the contacts made up, with current flowing, and then separate them. At the moment the last bits of metal are touching, the current density is enormous in that spot and there is considerable local heating, enough to heat the air to plasma and allow conduction. That's what causes the arcing, and it does not require extremely high voltages. It can be demonstrated in a purely resistive circuit.... An R-C snubber can help with mitigating the resistive portion of the arc, but modern practice is to simply make the contacts break very fast.
Now, what effect would the train's forward velocity have on dissipating the local heating necessary to create and sustain such a local plasma simply by ohmic heating? Keep, in mind that such motion is likely to cause the contacts to break very fast.
Geez, that's a complicated model. It all depends on what you
theorize is happening mechanically at the shoe/rail interface.
Does the shoe hit an ice patch and ride on top of it? Is the
shoe continously bouncing on and off the rail? It's almost
as messy as trying to calculate the Ldi/dt from the motor since
L is a non-linear function of I.
Setting: the uptown platform at the 14th Street station.
Characters: me, plus a skell who was walking in circles and singing off-key in a *very* loud voice.
Events: about six or seven Port Authority cops entered the station, apparently as part of a training course. One of the cops, apparently the leader/teacher, removed the padlock from metal swing gate next to the turnstiles. He began pushing on it, without success. Then he tried pulling it toward himself, also without success. The skell then said, "You got to pull it in, just pull hard!" The cop pulled hard, as directed, and the gate opened.
Moral of the story: if you're stuck somewhere, call a skell.
That's a gem, Peter! Thanks. I needed a good laugh to-day.
Wayne
"Oooh, that skell! Can't you smell that skell?"
(With apologies to Ronnie VanZant and Allen Collins [Q.E.D.])
"That Smell" (R.VanZant-A.Collins)
(C) 1977 Duchess Music Co. ASCAP All Rights Reserved
Assuming that the G gets cut to Court Sq 24/7...and if there are no "lawsuits" (probably claiming "racism" or "civil rights violations") or piles of complaints get stacked up against the MTA by Greenpoint residents and the like....
What would you make as it's new southern terminal?
I can see at least two choices...
#1) Church Ave, which will make the F skip 15th, Ft Hamilton Pkwy and presumably 4 Av, Smith/9 and Carroll Streets. The F would stop at Bergen Street lower level platform. This is probably the most likely southern terminal IF it gets extended south.
#2) Coney Island, but that is WAY unlikely....maybe a long shot during the summer months....or even Brighton Beach via Coney Island, but that is if you are an optimist. With Coney Island as its new southern terminal, either the F (more likely) or G must use the express tracks probably northbound AM, southbound PM.
OR if the MTA feels like placating those Greenpoint residents (anyone's guess if this will happen or not)....
#1) Most likely safety net service without transferring twice and that long walk between 23/Ely and Court Square is to make the G line run to 71/Continental during non-rush hour periods...where headways can mean a ride from some local station in Queens Blvd to somewhere else on the G line south of Court Square can easily double or triple because of such a short-sighted plan...
#2) build a transfer passage to 45 Rd/Court House Sq #7 station. In that case, they can ride the #7 to 74/Broadway and transfer to the R for Queens Blvd local service.
In short, don't expect the G to lose Queens Blvd service without any kind of fight, whether politically or otherwise...perhaps another reason for putting more bad press against Giuliani or anyone else who oversees the MTA.
First off, I see no indication of the TA changing the southern terminal. IF they were to, it would be Church Street but that would not happen diue to the clout of Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens.
With regards to the northern terminal, I don't understand the problem, Court Sq. provides a connection to the E and F going east AND west. No, the transfer isnt across the platform but it is still a transfer. What do Greenpoint residents want? They knew of the crappy service when they moved there... Also, the curttailing of the Northern Terminal probably has to do with the soon to be introduced line utlizing the 63rd St tunnel. With regards to service along Queens Blvd when that introduction happens, all you can do is speculate, but Im sure that service will not deteriorate...
What's wrong with that? Just because the G would be extended to Church Avenue doesn't mean that the F will have to go express. I hope it WON'T. The G is useless.
I have a great idea. Extend the G east of 71st, have it go into the Jamaica yard and build a new elevated structure over the Van Wyck to service the Tennis Center, Shea Stadium and LaGaurdia Airport.
(Extend the G up the Van Wyck to LaGuardia)
I don't know if you're kidding or what. The problem with that plan is that most of those taking the subway to LaGuardia would be coming from/going to Manhattan, and a trip through the Jamaica Yard would take them way out of the way.
In the event that the N was actually extended to LaGuardia, however, I think Queens would benefit from having it run out the other end to serve Shea Stadium and the portion of Downtown Flushing near the waterfront. You'd get park 'n ride traffic and take some pressure off the #7.
From there, one might imagine extending it on a concrete elevated structure over the border of Flushing Meadow Park next to the Van Wyck, through the Jamaica Yard, and onto Jamaica with the E.
Among other things, such a connection would give Airtrain passengers a two-train trip to LaGuardia from JFK, and allow LIRR passengers to hop the N for a quick subway trip to LaGuardia, Shea Stadium, and the tennis center.
It was in semi jest as most of that would duplicate the old Worlds Fair line which ran in 1939-40 and we all know my idea would never even be considered, much less built. I figured since an elevated struture is being put over the Van Wyke south of Jamaica Ave. (Airtrain), why should the northern part of the highway be left out?
It used to be called the GG when I lived in New York decades ago. It was the slowest train around. Local all the way, when we took it it seemed to take eons to get to Carroll Street and Smith & 9th Street, its last two stops. It was a long and boring ride, but when we left Carroll Street, it seemed we climbed to the stars when we left the tunnel. It had to be one of the highest parts of the whole subway system, and it was the only outdoor stop on the line. Aside from the climb, the line was a big bore, almost like the 4th Avenue local, which likewise for a time had only one outdoor stop, Queens Plaza.
Smith-9th St. is the highest elevated station in the entire system relative to street surface, 87 1/2 feet or something very close to that.
Must be a royal pain in the butt to climb all those stairs.
There are escalators.
When they're actually in service...
There still there. Just that when they're not in service they're like stairs, only worse.
The G is useless.
I'm not going to argue that the G service isn't good....cuz it isn't. But it's not useless, especially to Greenpoint residents. I have relatives who live in that area. If there is no G service, it means a 20 minute walk to Jackson Blvd to catch the #7. Try walking over the bridge during the winter months, unless you are very lucky and actually catch the bus. So the G is slow, but not useless to residents in Greenpoint....believe me!!! -Nick
I agree with Nick and I'm a Greenpoint resident. Service on the G train is lousy which is why I take the B61 bus to LIC to catch the #7 train. By taking this route, I can get to Midtown in 20 mins. Train service might be lousy, but it's very close to Midtown.
So in your case, you're not really affected that much by a change in the G service since you never take that line?
Also, People in Greenpoint can also take the L at Bedford if need be...
No, but depending on the weather which in case our recent snowstorm. Bus service was limited due to the condition of the roads. I had no choice but to take the G train from Nassau Ave to Court Square. Then proceed upstairs to catch the #7 train. This in turn made me late for work since I had to wait 30 mins for the G.
I have notice people walking from Bedford Ave back to Greenpoint. Why wait 30 mins for the G if can walk in 15 min.
So the G terminating at OCurst SQ or 71st has no relevance to you whatsoever...
You could say that. But when the G terminated at Queens Plaza, the connection was better if you have to take the E,F or R. It's a pain if you are traveling into Queens and you are required to take a local train from Queens Plaza. In this case, the R train.
The G line will have to be extended to Church Ave. if Culver express service is ever restored. But having the G as the only local train from Church to Bergen is out of the question.
If they add the V on Sixth Ave., then you could see the V and G trains operate as locals between Church and Jay, while the F would run express. Of course, even if the 63rd St. link opens next year, they'll still have to wait for the Manny B to reopen to do that.
The G is being cut to Court Sq. Nothing can, or will stop it. A cry of "racism" is bunk, as this service change will most affect the white people of Greenpoint. Perhaps they should built a transfer from the Court Sq. station on the G to the Court Sq. el stop on the #7 line.
How you gonna run the G to Brighton via Coney...have the train change ends at Stillwell each way? That would be nerve-wracking...
Just wonering, did anyone here have the opportunity to ride the SOCA when it was in NY? what were your impressions? Looking at the pictures, it seemes like an ugly train... Also, did anything concrete ever come of the project with regards to NY? Thanks. --Kevin.
yes.the R 46.
Yes, I rode it back in the summer of 1974 on the D line. I was a mere 8 years old then! I remember being impressed with its interior design. It had 'creature comforts' unknown to the NYCTA. It stopped in the middle of the platform, and I remember a hostess being onboard who gave out SOAC promotional booklets, some of which I still have after all these years. An ugly train? perhaps. But to me at eight years old, it was the 'mother of all subway cars'
Is it true that SOAC operated in Philadelphia. If so, on which line?
SOAC ran on the Broad Street Line.
BTW, I wrote a contemporary article on the SOAC operating on the Brighton Line. If there's any interest, I'll post it on rapidtransit.net when I get a chance.
You can read all about the SOAC right here on NYCSUBWAY.ORG. The cars now reside at the Seashore Trolley Museum, as a static exhibit. One of my colleagues is the "curator" of the cars, and hopes to have them operational some day if he has enough time and money to complete the effort.
A few years ago, I towed the cars using our electric work motor #300; it was quite a thrill to see them move even if only by tow!
SOAC also ran in Chicago (Skokie Swift) and Boston (Red Line, I think). Did it ever get up to Cleveland?
--Mark
01/27/2000
How could SOAC run on Skokie Swift? Isn't SOAC 10 foot wide cars? I have seen pictures on this, but I wondered how they got there. Any info on this?
Bill Newkirk
The soac train departed northbound from track 1 at Howard
St.(southbound platform) and crossed over to the
northbound track at a left-handed crossover at Custer St.
Revisited Tour of 91st IRT Station?
The Transit Museum hasn't run any such tours in at least a year, maybe 1.5 years, due to "security" concerns and a lot of turnover in the museum's curatorial staff. Maybe this year they'll start running them again.
No can do:
- live trains, third rail, etc
- no way in other than walking the tunnel, which would leave you liable for arrest
The Transit Museum offered tours down there in the past. We boarded a 1/9 train and the T/O stopped at 91st, opened the first set of doors and let the tour group out. We left the same way.
The amused faces of the passengers when we'd get back on the train are always good for a laugh.
--Mark
This is the LAST ONE I'm doing!!! (I'm working on other tour ideas)
Explore the Polo Grounds Shuttle and it's tunnel.
If you missed the first two, You must be here for this one.
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2000
Time: 11:00AM
Place: 167th Street #4 line N/B platform
Price: FREE!! Just show up.
Souvenir handouts will be given out.
E-Mail me for info: Mark618@webtv.net
One word, FLASHLIGHTS >G<
You may have to be very flexible with this date.
With all the snow that's fallen recently, that slope leading to the track level will be extremely slippery, and even if it all melts, the ground will now be frozen and difficult for someone to get his footing down. If this date is kept, someone who plans on attending, who lives fairly close to the tunnel, should do a reconnaissance mission a few days before 2/13 and inform us of the status of that slope.
It's a difficult climb up (or down) for some people without the added effects of the weather.
--Mark
Yes, express service on Los Angeles' Red Line. After a long evening at the opera (Gounod's "Faust"), I boarded the last Red Line train of the evening, departing Union Station at 11:17, destined for Wilshire-Western. At Vermont, the switch was aligned for Hollywood, and off to Hollywood we went. The few passengers seemed confused, but left the train at various stops. At Hollywood and Vine terminal, I was the only passenger, and the train operator assured me he would take me home. We ran express from Hollywood-Vine to Vermont (is this a first?) and then changed ends. I was deposited at Normandie station at 11:48, only 20 minutes late.
Another person posting on this site claims Los Angeles has the "worst rail system", but I consider this personalized service unique for subway systems. A round of applause for the MTA!
For those familiar with the Red Line track layout, changing ends at Vermont was done by switching from the eastbound to westbound track just south of Santa Monica station. Of course, no other trains were on the line.
The recent well deserved tactical strike on the BusTalk message board seems to have rekindled my child of 1950's nuclear bomb nightmares. I had one tonight that seemed to have similarities with a Twilight Zone episode featuring Burgess Meredith as a book loving bank teller who survives a nuclear bomb. He is the only one left in the city.
In my dream, the accidental tactical attack,happened last Friday evening when I was attending the ERA meeting. I had gone there wearing lightweight lead lined thermal underwear, to protect against the cold and from being irradiated by harmful rays at the meeting. Because of that, I managed to survive an accidental nuking of this message board. What would life be like here without the presence of everyone else? In my dream, I was in ecstasy. Nothing personal against all the other fine contributors. Since the archives only seem to hold 5000 posts, and even during periods of the full moon when I seem most prolific, how many of those posts can be mine? With this new found freedom, I set about filling the board with my creative output.
This way, I would have something to read and enjoy during the long nuclear winter. All the inhibitions against offending people were gone. I even managed to create a few imaginary posters who could play straight man and critic, and provide counterpoint for my thoughts.
The dream ended a little while ago, when the lights came on in the ward. I checked the monitor in the dayroom which is always tuned to SubTalk and found that everyone was still here. I am becoming extremely agitated, and as I write this I can hear Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, and Dr. Howard being paged over the speaker system.
Okay then. Nuclear Strike? Underwear? You by your self on Subtalk? Hey there might be people around the world who are alive who like subways. Maybe david lived??? This is a good subway mystery and also what about the subway cars in the city? Poof, gone soo long, good bye. (especially R-142) At least there will be no crowds on the Lex or the CPW. HA HA.
Christopher Rivera
If you think about it logically SubTalk would probably be the last message board left with most of its contributers still intact. Just look at the name, SubTalk, about Sub-ways, sub, sub-surface, sub-nuclear explosion wiping out civilization. I know that most of the sub-riding people would be wiped out (I mean those cut and covers would only be slightly more effective than duck and cover) what what about trains traveling under the East River, PATH trains, a lucky AMT/NJT train that happens to be in the tube. Heck, half of London would would survive with their mile deep tunnel system. After a few minutes of looting you come over to Sub Talk and see posts like "Boy can those Redbirds take a shockwave" or "Atomic blast got my slant R-40 up to 123 mph" or even "Anti-scratchitti window coatings on R-142 absorbs radiation". Of course there would be no electricity and all the electronics would be wrecked so SubTalk would have to shift to a more lo-tech stance. SubTalk would consist of a large bulletin board somewhere in the vicinity of what was Jay St. The Sub Talker who had gotten there first and proclaimed himself Subway King would be responsible for the boards upkeep as well as his normal duties (don't think a neuclear war would make the problem of OFF PEAK train frequency just disappear) The board would take on a slightly more NYC-centric flavour, but carrier piegons from other parts of the country and bottles from Europe would filter in from time to time. Even in a post-apocalypptic war zone you need public transportation and SubTalk will still be there to make sure things turn out better than ever.
Joisey Mike has certainly thought through what a post nuclear holocaust would be like. I would like to take exception to one thing he said. He said that SubTalk would be the last message board with most of its contributors intact. If you are referring to intact mental states, I would like to use myself as an example of a less than intact mental state preceding the nuclear strike.
Yes-- I can just see the posts reporting a slant R-40 doing 123 mph between Newkirk and Kings Highway. That or some gleeful reports of seeing a train of R142's laid up in the yards being vaporized by the blast of heat, whereas a set of Redbirds on a neighboring track just glowed a deeper red.
In my original post, I envisioned the Message Board on the walls of my apartment, where I would put up posts and sit reading them. However, I like your image of carrier pigeons and bottles at sea as the source of out of town posts. And certainly SubTalk will continue to fight for truth, justice, and the American way.
listen to heypaul !!!! HE IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY !!! """S"" the r-142s !!!!
Mr. Willie---- Thanks for the support. You just
reminded me, that in the post nuclear attack world,
monthly ERA meetings could be a showcases for your
RAILFAN videos. Each month we could reminisce about
how the city looked before it was devastated.
A bit of live transit action would be a welcome
change.
(( Bless SubTalk--- While I am writing this, 5 out
of the 7 local New York television channels are
broadcasting the Republican Response to President
Clinton's Address. I must say during his speech I
was also occupied with railfan issues. Bless this
bastion of sanity, well at least it is when I am
not posting. ))
Where would we get the VCR and TV? And if we saved some of that, where would we get the power?
For someone whose name has undergone many fanciful
changes, I am surprised at your question. You ask
how would a VCR and TV be possible in a post nuclear
exchange? In the realmn of fantasy, anything is
possible. This is all suppose to be funny, not
necessarily logically possible. I will hope you
will not attempt to shoot holes in my balloon in the
future. Otherwise I will write you out of SubTalk,
which is in reality one elaborate fantasy of mine.
If I may ask you---- What is the current meaning of
your handle? If it is pure fantasy, then
harharhardyharhar ( I think that's something Ralph
Kramden might say )
Hey Paul, I'm still trying to figure out where Royal Island is!!!
I told you! It consists of the very royal counties of Kings and Queens. You see, those people in original Dutch name for Long Island County, and Southern People County consider themselves alone in LI (and so do the people elsewhere), but they are forced to share a landmass with us. By constructing a Further East River (it would achieve the same function of carrying water from the LI Sound into the Ocean as the E River), Those two counties can get an island to themselves which is still long and still fits the name, and the kings and queens get their own Royal Island.
BTW, did you ever see the commercials for Thumanns(sp?): The Deli Best?
"FOR DUTY AND HUMANITY"!
"Young man, it looks like the Sword Of Damocles is hanging over your head..." (MH: Lady, you must be psychic!)
"The cheese! the cheese! (mmfff!) Mmmm, Roquefort!"
"Come in (THUD!) Come IN! (THUD! THUD!) I SAID COME IN!!! (SPLAT!)"
"Oh, Maha..." "AHH-HA" "Siddown, you Flatbush Flathead!" (they must be from Canarsie)
"Dis house sho' gone crazy!"
here, Paul, have a pie...
wayne :o>
"Dis house sho' gone crazy!"
That was Dudley Dickerson. Hilarious black actor whose best scenes are often cut for fear of offending the politically correct. After all, he portrayed blacks who spoke in low class black accents, occupied the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, and were as dumb as can be. As opposed to the Stooges who spoke in low class white accents, occupied the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, and were as dumb as can be.
Alan Glick
Thanks for passing that little tidbit along. I don't care WHAT kind of stereotype it was - the sight of him inching into the kitchen with his Sou'wester on while the stove is spouting water was enough to make me keel over with laughter. Ditto for the other episode where the phone blows up in his face and he backs into the waffle iron ("They Stooge To Conga").
Wayne
I thought the DOD (Department of Defense) had plans to move ICBM's around by Subway???
Or was that via Railroad.... I get that confused.
Does that qualify as a weird subway dream? I had one the other night in which the doors on a train of R-44s opened up on the wrong side (Noo-ooooooo!!!). Luckily, the conductor realized what had happened in a nanosecond and immediately closed the doors.
i cloud really that happening.....lol
Edgar Rivera:
Edgar Rivera is a guy who was standing on a subway platform when he got pushed in front of a moving train by a crazed homeless guy a few months back. He miraculously survived, but lost both his legs and is confined to a wheelchair. Despite this, this husband and father of four has shown such fortitude and has been such an upbeat, positive force that even the cynic in me has been inspired.
Unfortunately, his innate strength hasn't inspired the City of New York or the mayor, since he and his family are stuck in an apartment that's not wheelchair accessible and the city refuses to help out. That means a lot of obstacles for Rivera who has to maneuver across a row of chairs on his hands to get to his own bathroom and can't leave the apartment -- or get back in -- when the elevator breaks down.
In response to the city's lack of response to Rivera's plight, the Bronx community came together and set up a fund to help Rivera and his family purchase a wheelchair accessible home. I already sent in my check. And I'm going to send in another. So far, they've raised a little over $30,000. They're aspiring to reach a goal of $200,000 (yes, homes are that expensive even in the Bronx around these parts). And I'm hoping that you'll take the $15 you would have spent on a membership to some *other* website and help this guy and his family out.
I simply hate it when life deals people lame blows for no good reason at all. But when someone takes that low blow and can still rise above it and push through the pain of it all, I'm absolutely humbled. I hope you will be, too.
You can send your donations to:
The Edgar Rivera Housing Fund
c/o Soundview Healthcare Network
731 White Plains Road
Bronx, New York 10473
Thanks!
A wonderful story of courage by one man, totally destroyed by your attempt to use it as an personal and political attack on the Guliani administration.
Chris--- I reread the post several times, and I do
not read it as an attack on Mayor Guiliani or his
administration. The message referred to the mayor
by title and to the City of New York as an overall
entity. I don't feel that the story was discredited
by indicating that the city has not been especially
helpful to the family. I wondering if anyone has
ever tried to speak to the Mayor on his call-in
phone program on Saturday mornings? Has this man
had any contact with the Victim's Compensation Board?
I felt that the statement about the mayor specifically being unresponsive to Mr. Rivera's needs was totally unecessary. The mayor can't personally handle the problems of every single unfortunate New Yorker. However, knowing the beurocracy and how it works, it isn't suprising that the request to be relocated to housing equipped for Mr. Rivera's needs has not been acted on with all due speed.
Hey, Chris, don't worry They won't have GHOULiani to kick around as mayor much longer, it seems that the democrats have a talent shortage and had to bring in a low rent candidate from Arkansas. I'll probably vote for Rudy
HE can't do much damage as Senetor.
If Rudy loses, he should run for governor of Arkansas....lol
>your attempt to use it as an personal and
>political attack on the Guliani administration.
read it again, spanky. I dig Giuliani.
I failed to mention I got that post from
a fellow site online. Do the math.
I assumed you were the author of that particular post. Apologies ...
Who the hell is this?
I should sue you for slander.
Did anyone get the new AT&T card? There are TWO, I found out today. And the booth clerk said another would be out at month's end.
Interesting event: I was waiting to get my card at the booth at Bway-Nassau. Standing in front, off to the side, was a TA employee. She was showing off her book of metrocards (collection). She informed me that there were two ATT cards. She showed me the "Broadway" card that was given out at Madison Sq Gdn. WhenI stopped foaming at the mouth, I thanked her for the info. and proceeded to get my two cards.
Joe C
If she was "Sun Flower" she's the same Station Agent I've met. See if you can get her to try SubTalk, I was unsuccessful several months ago.
Mr t__:^)
01/27/2000
You mean there are two versions of the AT&T card? What are the variations we should look for?
Bill Newkirk
They look totally unlike each other, for one thing. One has a picture, sort of, of the Times Square area, it looks like. Itis colorful. The other is more b&w, picture of two street signs. Both have to do with new local service offered by AT&T.
Joe C
The one with Time Square is avable at the station at Parkside Ave on the D/Q. I got one on Thusday. I have seen the other one while people were getting on my bus. I do not know if they are from an out of system sails.
Hope this helps.
Robert
I got both at Bway Nassau, IRT Lex. I hear two more are on the way, like this week! Any updates guys?
Joe C
This may have been addressed before, but what will run to Queensbridge when the B runs to 168th. The hand-out on the subway doesn't mention this part.
Joe C
The Web site says a "Shuttle." Of course we SubTalkers are DYING to know how it will be signed.
So we used our Ask the Audience lifeline, and the vote was:
A) S 63%
B) B 28%
C) NOT IN SERVICE 8%
D) X 1%
I'd vote for any one of these. I'm amused. And amazed.
Perhaps it will do the Queenbridge to 34th/ Bway routine again.
Joe C
The Shuttle will run 6 av local from Queensbridge (via 63rd tunnel) to Broadway lafayette.
Wouldn't it be 2nd Ave?? That is where they normaly run the Queens Bridge Shuttle when it is running 6th Ave (instead of Broadway).
I just caught that myself. 2nd Ave is always the choice.
Joe C
what if 2nd ave. is an irt?
The NYCT web site said Broadway-Lafayette- of course the web site could be wrong. We'll find out soon.
Imagine the delays in attempting to discharge shuttle passengers at Bway-Laf. while other road trains sit. A better choice would be 2nd Ave.
Maybe they are going to discharge only at B'way-Lafayette and use 2nd Avenue to deadhead and turn around only.
Wayne
I also doubt that the terminal will be Broadway-Lafayette. It will interfere the operations of both D and F trains. 2nd Avenue is a more logical choice.
Chaohwa
It'll be B'way-Lafayette. Then the trains will cross over at Ssecond Ave and reverse.
-Hank
Isn't the letter "S" overdone as a designation for shuttles? Each line should have its own number or letter. I propose the following:
"10" - Times Square - Grand Central. IRT tradition should be honored with a number. "8" should be kept in reserve until the 2nd Avenue subway is extended to the Bronx on the route of the Bronx 3rd Avenue el, the old, lamented "8".
"H" - Broad Channel - Rockaway Park. Again, there is historical precedence.
"P" - Franklin Shuttle. "P" for Prospect Park.
"S" - Euclid - Lefferts. By default, I suppose.
"?" = Queensbridge to ?. Help me here.
The '10' was reserved for the Lexington Avenue local skip/stop paired with the '6'. The 'H' was to be the new 8th Avenue express replacing the'A'Leferts branch. The 'P'was another 'KK'except it was to run non-stop from Jamaica to midtown. The 2nd Avenue line was[and is]built to IND diminsion[10 ft wide/75 ft long] so I dont think there will be any number lines here with its connections to 63 st an all.
I though that the green 8 was designated for the 6 skip stop.........
3TM
01/27/2000
You know, the (H) designation for replacement of the (A) designation for Lefferts Blvd. makes sense to me. Why confuse things with two (A) services?
Also replace the #7 Flushing express with the #11. Duplications can be confusing to some people.
Bill Newkirk
I like what they did with the #6. Diamond <6> "express". However many people that don't know there is a land mass north of 86th street think the express means Lex Ave, not Pelham. So, there is still confusion.
Joe C
SEPTA isn't doing too great with El service this morning.
Today, I had to go downtown so I took the El from 63rd to 15th as usual.
As time went on I noticed a disparity between eastbound and westbound trains. NINE trains, each literally a station apart came one right after the other in a space of about 5-8 minutes. In the mean time, NO trains came for my direction.
About 15 minutes in, two trains came by and bypassed 63rd Street until the 3rd came and stopped. Total waiting time: 25 minutes.
I understand delays because of snow, but it was clear and sunny and why were so many trains going to 69th and none going my way?
It seems to me that on many lines, trains are no longer held in the station - even momentarily - to allow for connections between express and local trains, as they were in the past. Does this reflect a change in transit authority policy, and is it designed to make our trip faster or slower? Any ideas?
At major hubs they do. At 145 st (A,B,C,D) ,125(st 4,5,6) CPW (A,B,C,D) 59 st (A,B,C,D,), DeKalb (D,Q,M,N,R) or how ever it is spelled. Normally during rush hours they hold the local b at 145 for the rush hours bronx thrus express d, and boy does it make it for crowds. Be lucky that you do not take the d. If you do from the bronx you know what I am talking about.
Yes, by holding the B, it assures that EVERYONE will run onto the D train when it arrives. That's one area where holding locals for connections to expresses is not a good idea.
Then you're treated to a nice turtle race down CPW.
Most of the time, trains aren't held at Dekalb Avenue for connections.
I take the D from DeKalb each afternoon. Sevral times a week they hold
the bridge train for the tunnel, and vice versa. Is this necessary?
What totally kills me is holding a southbound B @ 59th for a connection with a D, and vice versa. Then they announce which train will leave first. And then there's Canal ST/ 8th ave line. C pulls in,northbound. They hold it until the E arrives, then send the E first, creating a backup on the express tracks.
Joe C
During rush hours yes, but not other times. Many times an N or R will be held to link up with a D or Q.
At major hubs they do. At 145 st (A,B,C,D) ,125(st 4,5,6) CPW (A,B,C,D) 59 st (A,B,C,D,), DeKalb (D,Q,M,N,R) or how ever it is spelled. Normally during rush hours they hold the local b at 145 for the rush hours bronx thrus express d, and boy does it make it for crowds. Be lucky that you do not take the d. If you do you know what I am talking about.
Yup, this is a condition which has become epidemic since the strike situation. While most conductors are not mandated to keep doors open for express/local x-fers (unless the "holding" lights are on), many did before out of courtesy.
I thought during rush hour trains are not to be held. Keep the line moving was the number one concern. I always miss the F at 47/50 Rock and then see it sit in the tunnel waiting for the E to clear.
At Queens Plaza thouth they have been holding the E/F for the local R/G lately. The new automatic annoucment now when the holding lights come on "We are Temporarly Holding this DOOOWNNTOOWN______EXPRESSSSS___Train in the station for a connection" or something light that.
Hello all,
Is anyone here from New Orleans, or have any contacts there that are involved with the streetcar operations (Riverfront and St. Charles lines)? Planning a trip there for Februrary and thought it would be nice to try to get behind the scenes...
Thanks,
Dave
I will also be visiting the Big Easy this spring, and I am planning to get a lot of pictures!
Should be fun!
I visited NOrleans several times in 1997 and
if I recall correctly, the St Charles line uses
a few back-streets as a path to get the trolleys
from the (Storage) to the Northern Terminal...
I'd watch for the street next to (or near)
the St Charles Streetcar PoBoys Sandwich Shop.
Just don't ride them in the rain.. won't see a
THING out those windows..
David, if you call their version of the MTA, you can be allowed in the car barn-my firend filmed his own video on the St. Charles line. New Orleans is currently in a streetcar expansion mode. A new connection has been laid on Canal, restoring center tracks for the first time since the demise of the Canal line in 1964. The connector is between the modern Riverfron line, created I believe for the NO world's fair and the ancient St. Charles- a fabulous running vintage streetcar-they kill if you say trolley. There is some non renue service now at night.
Within a year the original Canal line will be restored to service out to the cemeteries with a spur to a local college. The next plan is to restore the famous Desire line. That is in the planning stage.
Have a great time! The lines are great to ride.
Interesting you should mention the new line on Canal St.
My friend told me a neat story about when NOPSI ripped up the old line. Apparrently, there was some community protest concerning its abandonment. Several weeks before abandonment they chipped away the concrete around the rails and replaced it with asphalt. Immediately following the last car they sent out a crane to rip out the rails. The asphalt, being softer than concrete, allowed a rapid demolition.
So I suppose it's well within the memory of many local residents to see the line come back.....
Thanks for all the feedback. I got a few leads.
I notice there aren't too many web sites about the New Orleans operations. Guess we'll have to start covering it at nycsubway.org!
Have a great time, Dave!
If we get a NO page going here, I'd be happy to compile everything I can find on the restoration of Car 966, which now resides at Seashore, and is in regular public operation.
Todd,
Be glad to have it!
-Dave
I'll also contribute any pics I take while I am there.
I have been trying to find a way to add to nycsubway.org... my chance is here, I think!
:-)
I have a bunch of shots that I took over two visits to New Orleans back in 1998, interested?
I rode on both the St. Charles and Riverfront lines when I was down there in 1994. Shot a whole roll of film to boot. The St. Charles barn is off Carrollton Ave. before the line swings onto St. Charles Ave. itself. The motorman on the return trip was a walking encyclopedia about the various houses and buildings along the line. He emphasized that all of the houses we saw were single-family homes. The only thing he didn't know was the track gauge, which I discovered was Pennsylvania broad gauge (5' 2 1/2"). The Riverfront line at the time was standard gauge, but I understand it is being or has been converted to match the St. Charles line.
One other thing I noticed was that motormen on the St. Charles line coast a lot. They would be working that controller back and forth, back and forth.
Getting off at Sheepshead Bay this evening around 5PM, I was surprised to see a set of R-32 on the Q pulling into the station heading for Manhattan. This is the first time I've seen 32's on the Q in my travels recently, but I am not a regular rider of the subways.
I haven't seen any R32 on the Q since early 1998. Before then, there were a couple of sets running on that line. Perhaps the Q just borrowed a set from the N line.
It must have been the same set that was laid up at the bumpers just north of Ocean Parkway last night.
When the Willy B was shut down we got some 32's and non Slant's on the Q as well. It has been all Slant's since it reopened until this reporting.
maybe the slant Q's are being overhauled? I heard that the trains are overhauled every 60,000 miles and their time has come. also the R 68 are to be put up for major overhaul work like what happened to the R 46 and the R32 earlier back.
The R68 will never have the need to undergo the major overhaul jobs that other cars (R32-46) needed. They have been well maintained, they're still relatively new (11-14 yrs. old) and their performance record is outstanding. Barring minor thinks like door and scratched up window replacements, no other car will ever have to undergo the almost complete rebuilding the older cars did.
There were some of them around at the end of 1997 and beginning of 1998. #3918 was one of these (so was odd couple #3348-3549), and the former was sporting an "O" in its bulkhead sign (at least that's what it looked like - could have been a "Q" with the flipdots on its tail not illuminated).
CAR NUMBERS please if anyone spots this odd "Q" again, thank you all in advance. My guess it's a runaway from the "N".
Wayne
Who says you can't go home again? That's where the R-32s debuted in 1964. I rode on a Q of R-32s in 1997.
Isn't it strange how history repeats itself?? The R32s debuted on the Q 36 years ago looking sleek and modern with stainless steel fluting, deep blue doors and the old TA logo on the side. And they really flew back then too.
Oh man - do I want a time machine and a ride in a vintage set of brand new R32s!!
Actually, the R32s can still step pretty good even today, at the tender age of 35. I'll take mine with A/C, thanks - the original R32s may have looked good (and they still do) but they were brutal in the summer heat. It's too bad the overhall left them with such spartan interiors - a look like the R38 (or the R32GE) would have been much better. But the air-conditioning is par excellence - NOTHING rolling today is as cold as a "Stone Cold" R32.
Wayne
The R40 can. Unfortunately I have to put myself down. The R68A A/C is horrible!
I saw a Q of R-32 at Dekalb this morning (Friday) at about 8:20 a.m. I pulled out before I could get any car numbers.
i once saw R32 on the Q ine going from W 4th st. but what was wired, the 3rd car was a R42. It seems that the last 8 cars were r42 while the frist two were r32. was this a error on the Ta's part or are the Q getting R32 or R38 while there is no "c" service?
You are right i was on a R40 Q train tuesday during the storm and i decided to take it to brighton just for the hell of a express ride in the snow and pictures as well. It was entering brighton b. and i saw the r32 you are taling about. i took it all the way to newkirk it was very interresting trip indeed it was around many people looking confused because the snow prevented the imeediate vision of the front sign and some of the side signs were broadway yellow it was around 3:30-4:00pm i think very interesting.
This train ran during the Willy B closure.
This is a follow up to an earlier discussion here on Contact Shoe Arcing. Steven Bauman explained that the arcing creates high voltages, which can damage the windings of the motors. While I was out on the trains today, I noticed more orange marker lights on cars, which I think indicate a dead motor. What does a dead motor cost to repair, including train out of service and time needed to remove and install a replacement? I would guess about $1000.
Try about ten grand for a motor rewind at least, exclusive of the labor of removing the wheel/axle/motor "Combo", disassembly/reassembly of the combo and reinstallation.
Here's a question for Slant-40/rollsign afficiandos
Today I saw an N train of slant-40s. The interior roll signs
displayed a round yellow N route, but the exterior signs showed
a yellow diamond M, which I suspect was really an upside-down
W (a proposed 63 St/Bway/Whitehall routing). How does this happen?
The roll signs on the side have a different control than the one in the front. My question is where is the control for the sign in the bulkhead or on the side of the front of the train on the redbirds, R32, R40, R42, R44, R46, R62, and R68 (or in other words, every single subway car in service).
The redbird controls is in the panel over the front door.
On the cars with the signs in the front windshield (where the extra rail fan window would be is inside a panel(looks like an access panel.)
The bulkhead signs on the Redbirds have good old-fashioned crank handles. The mechanisms are essentially the same as those used on the R-1/9s.
Perhaps you misunderstood my question. On the side route/destination
roll signs (over the side windows), there are 3 cranks. One for
north dest, one for south dest, one for route. The signs are arranged
so that when you crank it around and, e.g an "N" is displayed
inside, it is also showing outside. So, how did the signs get
out of correspondence?
The roller curtain mechanism is such that the "supply" and "takeup" ends are across from each other, not one on top of the other. What this means is that the curtain moves from, say, the bottom side facing the car exterior, up along the side to the top, across the top, then down along the side facing the car interior to the bottom. Such curtains typically will have two stations printed facing in one direction, then repeated "upside down". If set correctly, the proper terminus will appear on both sides. If not, one sign will appear to be upside down.
All cars from the R-16s thru the R-38s had this arrangement for side route and destination signs. So do the GOH R-40s and R-42s as well as the R-62s and R-68s. On the R-1/9s, only the side destination signs were set up this way; the route curtains were printed on both sides. All curtains on the BMT standards were printed on both sides. I'm not sure about the Triplexes, although their signs were printed on the wrong side so that they would display information only when illuminated.
Hey I also saw this same train today!
That's probably #4282 you saw - the sign must be frozen stuck in that position. The sign is a diamond "W". The rollsign itself could be out of allignment within its mechanism.
Wayne
The 'W'is the proposed rush hour partner of the 'N' from Astoria to Whitehall via Bway local. It will do exactly what the N rush hour specials do today.
So why the heck don't they use the "W" if they are already "using" it as a de-facto route? They're some dummys, all right.
Wayne
Or the person changing iut got lazy.
-Hank
Actually it was like 3 or 4 cars that had the "W" sign on today
Since both the 'inside' and 'outside' "N" on the side signs are exactly the same, if you are not paying attention to what you are doing while changing the signs, this is what happens. What you saw was the outside circle on the inside. On the slants you get an upside down 'W', on the R-68's you get an upside down brown 'M' and on the R-68a's you get an upside down yellow circled 'B'. I suggested putting a small dot at the bottom of the yellow circle as the cars went in for inspection, so as to differentiate between the inside and outside signs about 5 years ago, but like everything else, this fell on deaf ears. But then again, what the hell do I know, I'm only a dumbell conductor.
Oh! Now I get it. The inside N was really an outside N and
it was upside-down, only I couldn't tell because the letter is
symmetrical. Had the sign been cranked another half-circuit,
this upside-down N would have appeared on the outside and the
inside N would have swung off the rollers and into view.
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess this wasn't a problem with
the older route signs ("N Broadway Local") because it was obvious
when it was upside-down.
For a person awaiting a southbound #4 at Bedford Park Blvd 6:30 a.m. weekdays, what should be the expected headway? Thanks.
There is none. The 4, 5, and 6 are always bunched up. It should be every 3-5 minutes (I think).
Anywhere from 4 to 6 Minutes but check the Offical MTA Timetables on there website.
I always wondered. Someone on the radio has always women are safer drivers than men. This Counts for Cars. I only wonder. Does it count for Trains too? I don't think so. I have been on Trains where Women have obviously made stupid mistakes that men would never make.
Isn't why the job is called Motorman?
The one that's better trained and pays attention to their duties.
-Hank
They changed the label from motorman to train operator because it was more politically correct. I still call them motormen. Even if it is a women I think that lables like that of a job title as long as it is ligit. doesn't matter. As a car driver, I seen both women and men do many dumb things. These include tailgating which really pisses me off.
As train driving, I think that both sexes take thinks more seriously because their jobs depend on it. I guess if you think its true than maybe it is?
Do you think it has to do with evolution? Women are better parents and
there is a less change of her abandoning a child. Men seem to have better math and technical skills? Men used to build tools and women take care of children even back in the days before humans.
Anyway I feel that the job fields should be more diverse. What dumb things did you see?
The one that's better trained and pays attention to their duties.
-Hank
true true true!!!
Well.... the absolute BEST ride on ANY train that I have had in recent memory came a month ago on the "A", and a fair hand was on the controller of #4008 as we plunged through the Cranberry Tube. What a thrill! At Jay, she was paid the compliment and given the thanks due her for a great express run, starting at Columbus Circle. My only regret was that I didn't stay on until Euclid.
Wayne
Was it as good for her as it was for you? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah, I'll bet the Fulton St. dash was a treat as well!
I got a story from Chicago (I know, this site isn't about Chicago transit, but this one is worth posting here) that is a negative point for a certain female train operator... Here goes...
My buddy Steven at work was on a Brown Line train coming into the loop one afternoon from the north. Now, normally, where it enters the loop, it goes straight, comes back around and goes back up north.
Well, that day, something was up and they were rerouting trains the other way, and instead, at that track switch (tower 12, which at one time was the busiest rail interesection on earth) those Brown Line trains didn't go straight, but turned left to run around the inner loop.
Now, mind you, this is a good track switch. Good enough that they usually barrel down about 35mph over it, after crossing the river into downtown over these 103-year-old tracks.
Tony C. says:
Well, this lady train driver apparently didn't know she was being rerouted, and didn't notice that the track switch wasn't yellow-over-red (going straight), but red-over-yellow (switching tracks).
So, she hits the switch at about 25 or so, maybe 30. Which should have been done at like 8mph.
Steven said he then feels the car hit the switch hard, the car turn around the corner very fast (these tracks are at an elevation of about 40 feet in the air), and he felt his car and the one behind him tip on about a 30-degree angle.
At which moment, he hears the operator go "OH SHIT!!!!" and the trains stops REAL FAST. At which point he felt the right wheels on the car crash as they came back down on the track. The train went airborne on one side due to inertia and nearly tipped over!
They sat for about 3 minutes, and continued on their reverse route around the loop.
Several things to point out: first, that could have been anyone, female or male, who wasn't paying attention. Second, if any wheels did lift (which I consider unlikely), they would have been the ones on the left side, not the right, as the inertial direction of travel would be to the outside of the curve. Third, if the T/O was that far overspeed into the curve she wouldn't have been allowed to move that train one additional inch after it stopped.
What probably happened is that she entered the curve too fast, dumped the air when she realized her error, and the normal effects of slack action, the curve, and the emergency stop caused significant lurching and banging in the train. The three minute delay was the amount of time it took for the brakes to fully recharge so she could proceed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What probably happened is that she entered the curve too fast, dumped the air when she realized her error, and the normal effects of slack action, the curve, and the emergency stop caused significant lurching and banging in the train. The three minute delay was the amount of time it took for the brakes to fully recharge so she could proceed.
CTA trains don't have air brakes, although I sort of wish they did. The sounds they make add a lot to the rapid transit experience, IMO.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's been too many years since I've ridden them, guess I'd forgotten that - I was in Chicago last month for the first time in twenty years but didn't have the opportunity to ride (my daughter wanted to leave earlier than we had originally planned so we could make a side trip in Michigan, so there went my railfan time).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
my answer !!!!!!!!! BOTH !!!!!!!!!!
On the Shuttle that operates between Times Square and Grand Central, I noticed something. The Cars al have blue strips now instead of yellow. A Motorman named DJ says that the Shuttle no longer reports to the Westchester yard, they Report to the Livonia yard on the number 3 line. The Motorman says that from Track 4, that Shuttle just goes through the connection from Track 4 to the nearby Broadway local, 1/9 lines. Then they switch at 103rd street and go down to Brooklyn's Livonia yard. Also, from The other Tracks, they switch to Track one, and go to 33rd street on the 6 line, switch to the Dyre 5 line until Bowling green where they switch to the 4 all the way to Utica and then to Livonia yard. This is another line I enjoy Railfanning on, although the R-62's have a tiny( And I mean Really tiny) Railfan window. Also its only 45 seconds long, but someday I hope to operate it, Because its the one place where as a Motorman, you must operate the Train, and the doors as well.
01/27/2000
That is probably caused by the R-62A 5-car unitizing program. Only the Livonia #3 R-62A's will remain unitized, until the #3 line goes 10 cars.
Bill Newkirk
What will they do with the offending track at Lenox Yard? Will 5 cars open at 145?
The post-it note thing is OVER
When will this happen?
3TM
Came in on the tail end of eliminating the C Service. Is this a temporary or permanent situation for the C train?
One month - Jan 28 thru Feb 28. Reason - replace switches at World Trade Center terminal. Solution - combine E with C south of Chambers St; use A and B trains to compensate for loss of C service north of 42d Street.
1914: Saw it yesterday @ Rockaway Av. Still have its Pelham sticker.
1886: Took it this morning. Still had the 6 route map inside the car.
2001: Saw it at Saratoga this morning. It was the last car (NL bound)......
3TM
Can you elaborate a little bit on the significance of this?
01/27/2000
I saw R-62A #2000 last week on the #3 coupled up with #1904, the year the IRT opened. Coincidence?
Bill Newkirk
I saw R-62A #2000 last week on the #3 coupled up with #1904, the year the IRT opened. Coincidence?
Couldn't be.
I suggest witchcraft.
FWIW, 1999 was on the center 42nd shuttle track a week ago Wednesday.
coincidence.
1999 is no longer on the shuttle. As of 8:00am this morning, 1999 was spotted on the 3 line @ Penn Av. It did have it "S" sign displayed on the front. Also cars # 1955 and 1983 which were probably on the shuttle as well......
3TM
Mike, please tell me you saw 1978 recently....
Thanks!
Nick
Ah, those "Years Of Our Lives" cars... I'll have to tell Dad next time I talk to him that HIS car has been spotted again.
Dad: 1914
Mom: 1922
Me: 1954
Grandmother: 1898 (-1995)
AND if you want to count our "kids" (actually, our cats) -
1987, 1988, 1989, 1992, 1995.
Wayne
Hmm, five cats ... that means you'll still have one left after my dogs come by for dinner ... 1990, 1992, 1995, 1997 ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AND if you want to count our "kids" (actually, our cats) -
1987, 1988, 1989, 1992, 1995.
So that's why all those cars have litter boxes! ;-)
I got on a train of R32s on the C line the other day at 1:50 p.m. It seemed like we were flying through the Cranberry Tunnel. So I got to thinking. I timed the trip on an R44-R46 another day, then got another "fast" trip on some R32s. There was virtually no time distance.
Maybe the older models just SEEM fast because they are loud and the ride is rough. Its like our old Plymouth Horizon -- go over 65, and you feel like you're going 90. For that reason, maybe the pre-auto cars with open windows seemed faster than the new, perma-sealed cars.
BTW, will the new models have windows that open?
I'd agree that most of the new cars are as fast as the old (except the R68). However, their acceleration rates are noticably slower. When riding the R110A, you'd never even realize you were doing 40 MPH down the express tracks because it's incredibly quiet and the suspension systems gives you a completely smooth ride. In fact, most of the noise you hear riding on that train is caused by the rattling tracks.
The ride is definitely smoother on the newer trains for sure. Over the summer I got to see the digital speedometer on the redbirds (motorperson wanted ac), and saw that we were only going 25-30 MPH. But it seemed fast. Many people on here claim that riding on the R68s that you are going to slow....only 30 MPH, and that is boring. But really, it's the same speed. A few years ago, subtalkers made posts that the R110A seemed to go slow too, but it was determined later in the threads that the car is just streamlined so well. -Nick
It's harder to tell on a bi-level express/local set-up like Lex between 42nd and 103rd how fast a Redbird goes compared to an R-62. But on those four track stretches on the IRT, BMT and IND (except Fourth Ave. between Pacific and 36th) and on the IND CPW run, you can guesstimate as you pass the stations what the speed it.
The R-10s used to give you a major strobe effect with the support poles and the light from the stations as it zoomed down CPW. Today, with the R-68s, the strobe is much slower, and you can see the poles in much greater detail as they pass by. I haven't been on an R-38 going down CPW lately, but I'd bet those columns zip by faster than on the 68s.
they all run at the same speed. since the williamsburg br massacre they all have a set speed, so u won't see that strobe light effect anymore unless u ride the 7th ave. express between 96th,72nd and 42nd.
I agree that the 'strobe light' effect is still very much in evidence when bypassing local stops from Times Square to 96th Street, but this is for two reasons:
-These stations have a lot more pillars than some newer ones. The Queens Boulevard express can, on rare occasion, be as fast, but the local stops, except for 65th Street, have far fewer pillars. This gives the illusion of going slower through, say Woodhaven Boulevard.
-50th, 59th-Columbus Circle, 66th and 79th stations are all slightly curved, so as the express whips through, you're seeing the platforms and pillars at a slightly changing angle. This makes it LOOK faster.
I feel wheel-to-track rhythm is also an important indicator of speed. The faster the train goes, the more consistent the clickety-clack. This is best exhibited on the Lex express from 59th to 125th, and the Brighton express from Newkirk to Kings.
Those I-beams you speak of are set 5 feet apart. This interval was adopted with the original Contract One route and was maintained on the Dual Contracts and IND lines. All local stations on the Contract One and Dual Contracts lines feature I-beams set 5 feet apart and, yes, it does provide a strobe effect unique to New York. The first variation occurs at express stations. At some Dual Contracts express stations, I-beams between the express tracks are 15 feet apart while at others, the 5-foot spacing was used. On the IND lines, all local stations in Manhattan have I-beams every 5 feet; at express stations, 15 feet. On the Concourse, Queens, and Fulton St. lines, variations abound. Some local stations have I-beams every 5 feet; others have larger I-beams 15 feet apart. At Roosevelt Ave., there is a large I-beam every 15 feet with two smaller I-beams in between. 75th Ave. has I-beams every 5 feet, but they appear to be bigger.
In some places, curtain walls were put in between the express and local tracks at evenly spaced intervals, most notably along CPW from halfway through 110th st. to 125th St. and along the Fulton St. line.
The R-38s are definitely faster than the R-44s and R-68s, although the A train I took last October only managed to get up to 37 mph.
It's a combination of factors. Yes, the trains have been slowed down, which is unfortunate for railfans and especially express addicts like myself. Plus, they are quieter and run more smoothly than trains of yesteryear. Noise will certainly give the impression of going faster, as will a ride in a confined space such as a tunnel. With the R-10s, it was a happy combination of sorts. You had cars which were fast to begin with, and not exactly whisper quiet. When an A train bore down on 81st St., if it was doing 50, it felt like 60.
On Denver's LRVs, at 55 mph, you can hear wind whistling and not much else, the ride is that smooth and quiet.
No, the windows don't open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of people said the same thing about the M-4's when they first came out. They accelerated faster and were much smoother than the Almond Joys but most lay people thought they were slower.
from my sources, the 142 is faster than the rest of the models in the A division fleet however the speed doesn't matter because of the so many speed limits in the system. they claim that it is also smoother than the current fleet
Why have a faster train when new grade timers are being installed all over the place? makes no sense to accelerate just to have to slow down for another GT area? 99 1/2% of the posted speeds for GT zones aren't ARE NOT accurate try in a 40 mph and see the results also the lunar white GT's are another bunch i'd like to see eliminated
dont go to atlanta !!! MAN !!! THOSE TRAINS ARE REALLY SLOW !!!!
dont go to atlanta !!! MAN !!! THOSE TRAINS ARE REALLY SLOW !!!!
We heard you the first 80,000 times.
David
As one who drives old cars I am well aware of this phenominon. When air is wooshing about through cracks and you can feel every bump and you can see the road wizzing by next to your foot 50 seems way too fast your scared to go faster. However, in one of those new enocoboxes like a Hinda Civic the ride is so smooth that you don't realize you're going 80 until you see flashing lights in your rearview. When I'm on the freeway the real speed deamons aren't driving Mustangs or Vipers, they're driving Geo's and Hondas and VW Jettas. When you get in those cars its like your in a bubble and you can never get a feel for how fast your really going.
From wtopnews.com:
If you got a seat on the Metro today, there's a good reason. Ridership is down considerably.
Spokeswoman Cheryl Johnson says that between 5:30 and 9:30 this morning, Metrorail had about 68,600 passengers. That's barely a third of what they'd get on a normal weekday morning.
From 9:30 until three this afternoon, there were about 85,000 riders, down about 14,000 from what they'd expect.
And Metrorail was really a ghost town yesterday. Just over a quarter of a million passengers took a ride, less than half the normal weekday volume.
Johnson says they'll return to their normal schedule and train car lengths tomorrow. She also says there will once again be a shuttle bus between the 19th Street and 'Q' Street entrances to the Dupont Circle station, because of continuing elevator and escalator problems.
I wonder if NYC Subway ridership rises during snowstorms. The TA should know this. After all, every snow the Mayor urges people to use mass transit. It's about the only time he notices it.
It probably doesn't. Less people have places to go so ridership will naturally be down.
I was browsing through "The History of the Independent Subway" on this site (excellent work, Mark). One section discusses the platform lengths. According to it, the platforms were originally supposed to be 660' long, but instead most of them were built 600'. Also, some platforms are longer, like one of them is 745' long. My question is, why weren't the stations made 660'? Also, like the old phrase, "a chian is as strong as it's weakest link," a subway is as long as it's shortest station. Why were some of the station platforms made longer than the rest? They should have known that the other stations would not be able to accomodate trains as long as those stations.
That's not true. 10 car trains still manage to stop at the 5 car South Ferry.
Okay, South Ferry is the exception. I knew someone would mention that. But for the most part, it's true.
Thank you, Rob.
I will speculate that the IND Second System did plan for 11 (or even 12) car trains, and had this come to pass, existing stations may have been lengthened. Remember that as the IND was being built, the Depression set in, and the rising costs may have forced cutbacks in station size (as well as other things) as a result.
Interestingly enough, the 8th Ave subway opened up with 5 and 6 car trains - they didn't start out with 10 cars!
--Mark
Which station has the longest platforms on the IND system? This is not a quiz, I don't know the answer.
Probably 34th St.-6th Ave. I heard a whopping 745 feet being mentioned. It makes sense: a 10-car Q train of slant R-40s will stop with the first car right at that interlocking signal on the northbound platform, and that's a good 60-70 feet from the mouth of the tunnel.
On the present day IND it would have to be the old Aqueduct Station. I'm not certain but I believe that it can hold 26 cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also any of the other stations on the Rockaway peninsula are extra long since that line was designed to hold 10- 12 cars of 85 foot lenghts. (Howard Beach, Aqueduct/North Conduit, Broad Channel) And to a lesser degree the far Rock and Rock park Spurs
While you and Larry RedbirdR33 are both right regarding Aqueduct and the Rockaway stations having the longest platforms, the stations you mentioned were not built by the IND. They were acquired from the LIRR.
I think Steve B-8AVEXP is right when he says 34th St/6th Ave is the longest platform built by the IND.
--Mark
The Aqueduct-North Conduit Avenue station has a platform that is 1,060 feet long. The other platform is 817 feet long (in case anyone wondered).
David
They probably didn't have enough cars for longer trains when the 8th Ave. line opened - only the R-1s had been delivered.
Anybody know exactly why the C Train is not running in February?
The C stations and the local tracks the train runs on are not
shutting down. So, I'm at a loss....
Rather than inconvenience E riders, Heaven forbid, they'd rather sock it to the poor saps in Wash. Hts. Besides, they can substitute local service on CPW easier, I suppose. I'm SHOCKED that they didn't figure out a way to f-up the D. I'm sure it will follow somehow.
Ever the cynic,
Joe
But, if they are still running E and B trains to the C stations,
they can't possibly be doing any track work during the day.
So, what is accomplished by cutting out C service?
The work is being done far from the traffic, at the switch just outside WTC. So they could actually work around the clock.
Joe C
When they planned the 8th Ave line, would you say they basically screwed up by not providing a place in midtown where trains could switch back uptown, like they did on 6th Ave?? It seems they made SIXTH Ave a lot more flexible than EIGHTH Ave. Wonder why....
There are lots of things the city planned incorrectly when building the IND. Now, the IND is a favorite of mine, don't get me wrong.
One of the biggest problems is the inflexibility of the 8th ave just south of 59th. The 6th has options if a problem arises in 59th; not so with the 8th. Once past 42 street, those trains are hostages to any problem north of there up to 59th. There is the spare track 'tween 34th and 23rd, but I don't think it was intended as a turnback.
Also, the 6th is more flexible 'tween south of W4th. Only the 8th ave local has any flexibility here.
I agree with your statement.
Joe C
They could switch the C over to 6th Avenue Local and turn it at 2nd Avenue while sending the E to Euclid via Chambers and Broadway-Nassau for Queens service to lower Manhattan.
Or, they could turn the E at 2nd Avenue and have added R service run express (on Broadway, at least) and turn it at Whitehall.
Of course, the car shortage makes both of these options impossible. They should have held off replacing the interlocking a few years until we had the Queens Boulevard-63rd Street connection completed and the R143 cars had arrived. Unless, of course, the interlocking is in such bad shape after 67 years that it cannot wait.
[It seems they made SIXTH Ave a lot more flexible than EIGHTH Ave. Wonder why.... ]
In the software development world this would be refered to as the "Seocnd System" effect...
E riders are more important than C riders. The E carries more passengers, has a shorter headway and two extra cars.
Plus, the C riders can always go over to the IRT to go downtown,* whereas E riders from Queens have no real options if they are going down to the WTC area.
*most of them have already anyway!
Does anyone have a guess as to what the E train headways will be? Also will they still be 10 car trains or will they have to go to 8 cars if the stations on the Brooklyn segment have shorter platforms?
The stations on the Brooklyn section can support 11 car trains if needed.
Does anyone have a guess as to what the E train headways will be? Also will they still be 10 car trains or will they have to go to 8 cars if the stations on the Brooklyn segment have shorter platforms?
The stations on the Brooklyn section can support 11 car trains if needed.
It's not the riders from Wash. Heights who get screwed by this (unless you call having your A train make extra stops at 163 and 155 getting screwed), rather it's the riders at 135 and the local stations along CPW. Those stations go from having 2 local services down to 1 -- but the volume at those stations probably doesn't require 2 local services at any time other than rush hour anyway.
Chuck
You're right about the volume and two locals. Years ago there would have been only one train on the CPW local at those off hours. And if you remember, the "AA" ran three and four car trains, R-1-9's of course. The "BB" kicked in later as did the "CC".
The Wash Hts riders get screwed by having the "A" make all stops north of 59th, at night. I guess it is business as usual in this case, because the "A" does that now anyway.
Joe C
There's always the D. The D runs express on CPW at all times. In fact, I think that the CPW line is now the ONLY line with 24/7 express service, since the 2 now runs local nights.
-Hank
CPW and 6 Avenue run Express 24/7. At least that's what it says on the map.
Because of track work at Canal street which will not allow E Trains to terminate at WTC. Therefore the E must be sent somewhere else. The TA thought that they cannot have 3 Trains in Euclid avenue station, and A,C,E was they choice. The A and E have a high ridership while the C does not. So the Ta thought stopping C service would be appropriate.
I seem to remember 3-car AA trains in May of 1967. Might have been four. The BB didn't come into being until December of 1940 when the 6th Ave. line opened.
And, yes, the D is the only 24/7 express service left. Given the equipment assigned to it, ho-hum.
With all due respect, they fouled it up when they assigned a certain group of cars to that line which shall remain nameless.
I know that the D runs exclusively R-68, so that means I get a comfortable smooth ride, a nice looking interior, front and back facing bucket seats, and a nice chime whenever the doors close.
Well I'll have a one seat ride to the Franklin Ave Shuttle from Work with the E diverted. Maybe I'll try that as a way home or to work.
On the presumption that the inner tracks at the Second Avenue Station (F line) are energized or can be energized, why not just reroute the E below W4th St. to the F Line and turn them at Second Avenue? This way the C service doesn't have to be affected.
more people take the "E" to World Trade Center. Piling a lot of people on the "A" and "C" during morning rush hour to wTC would be ludicrious.
Are they replacing the Redbirds on that line or are the redbirds are going to stick around a bit longer? someone please reply.
Redbirds are to stay on the 7. The 2,5,6, trains will get the R-142. There was talk about the R62's going to the 7, but that didn't work, so the redbirds are here to stay on the 7.
The Rustbirds will NOT stay on the 7. Either you'll have a single R-62 inside a Redbird set, or all new trains. The R-33 singles will come to justice.
What are you talking about.
There are redbirds on the flushing irt is what the person is talking about and they want to know if they are being retired also
Oh! sweet!
i guess there useful lives aren't up yet
Although I hate to see the classic steel el structure on the West
Philly portion of SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line be replaced, does
anyone know the latest on its planned rebuilding? I know it has been pushed back several times over the last 2 or 3 years, and I hope it continues being pushed back!! I just love that classic el structure design, and I just hope it stays as is for at least a couple more years.
It's supposed to start this summer.
I walked under the Frankford portion of the El last 12/31, in the vicinity of Erie-Torresdale and Tioga. Are those curved rail supports new?
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As part of the ongoing confusion over exactly how service will operate along 8th Ave and CPW during the upcoming C train outage, I started wondering about 50th Street.
This station will be served 24/7 by the E train on the lower level. The upper level, normally served by the C train will not be used during most hours. During the overnight period when the A runs local, though, it will be on the local track. So does the overnight A stop at 50th street upper level, or does the upper level stay closed until the C train resumes?
Chuck
Unless the A is running as an express it will server 50th Street on the upper level.
Wayne
Aren't the two levels connected by stairs? They have to be. I haven't been on a train which stops on the upper level in years.
"Aren't the two levels connected by stairs? They have to be. I haven't been on a train which stops on the upper level in years."
Yes, the two levels are connected by stairs at the 50th street entrance. The 50th street entrance is the only entry/exit from the station, although there are wall tiles indicating that there were once exits at 49th, 51st and 52nd. The lower level serves the E train as it begins it's turn onto 53rd street. The upper level handles 8th avenue local service. With the elimination of C service during February, there will apparently be no trains stopping on the upper level -- except during the period from 11PM to 6AM when both the upper (A) and lower (E) levels will have service.
The station used to be a lot more important on the system when Madison Square Garden was between 49th and 50th Sts. on Eighth Ave., which would explain the greater number of entrances and exits listed on the wall.
There are times when I will relive in my mind those AA rides from Port Authority to the Museum of Natural History on May 7 and 21, 1967. It just so happens that on the northbound run from 42nd St. to 81st St., 50th St. is the only station where the doors open to the right. They open to the left at all other stations when riding on a local train. At that time, I hadn't fully grasped the local vs express concept; however, there was no mistaking those express trains which roared past 81st St. Still, the seeds had been planted. My curiosity had been piqued.
I'm seeing more R46 E's all of a sudden. Two were in Queens Plaza yesterday afternoon at the same time followed by a thrid (one of the famous 2 E's before southbound F). With a sighted R32 on the Q is this all related to the temporary suspension of the C this afternoon???
no. for some reason Jamaica yard has been switching yards with lines. they've been doing it for quite some time now. those R46 E's you were seeing were switched from the R line. I guess they are starting to switch them again. can you tell me about the no C's running?
I have noticed an increased number of R32 cars running on the R (3 trains this morning alone), plus one on the G. I'd assume the R46's from the E came from these lines.
Between reading this board and my two railfan magazine subscription, I hear about a lot of interesting railfan videos for sale. I've finally entered the 1980s and bought a VCR, and now I want to see some of those videos. Being that I'm a bit cheap, though, I really don't want to pay $15, $20, or more for a video that I may watch only once.
But the chain video stores don't have railfan videos (or at least the one I rent from -- Blockbuster -- doesn't), and the public library in my town is an absolute joke.
There's a story unto itself. The town is solidly middle-class and we have a large mall and substantial industrial base, so the library is not short of OPERATING revenue from taxes. But the library building is tiny, so they can't really buy any more books due to SEVERE space limits -- former seating areas have been turned over to shelving areas, so that there are a grand total of five or six tables and no armchairs. The library district asked for a bond issue for a new library at the last election, and the voters turned it down cold. Mind you, we have built, in the last ten years, a new: village hall, fire station, senior citizen center, and war memorial. But the old geezers that are a disproportionate share of the voters and homeowners don't use the library and see it as a teen hangout (yeah, right!) so they don't see why they should pay for a new one with increased assessments. AAAARGH!!!
The library in the town where I catch the train is excellent, and they have a good handful of rail and subway-related videos. But they won't issue me a library card except on payment of $90 for 6 months (!!) and my town's library doesn't have reciprocity with them. We've got reciprocity with poor suburbs that have even crappier libraries than ours, but hardly with any towns with decent libraries. Yes, I could order through Interlibrary Loan at my library -- and get the tape in two weeks or so!
So, after all that ranting, I get to the point: are there video stores that RENT railfan videos, not necessarily exclusively but at least with a substantial collection? If there's one in metro Chicago, that would be a plus. (^:
You may wish to check in some model railroad stores, as some of the ones I deal with out here in southern California DO rent rail videos.
There are also a couple listings in the classified ads in the back of "Trains" magazine for places that do "mail order video rental". I'm not sure if they would be cost effective, but they might be worth looking into.
A lot of the railfan videos are explicitly labelled "rental prohibited - licensed for home use only" by their producers, and the companies don't want to go to the trouble of producing two versions for a limited market. I have run into several hobby shops in New Jersey and at least two in North Carolina that ignore the labelling and rent them anyway, but ethically I have a problem with that, since the producer is not being compensated appropriately (a "public performance" copy, as rental tapes are known, costs significantly more than one for home use only). Libraries, because they are nominally "free", fall under the "home use only" category.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I've noticed that on a few of the railfan videos -- and I would venture to guess that it is SPECIFICALLY aimed at those rental services I mentioned as advertising in Trains Magazine. The market for railfan videos is VERY limited compared to general movie subjects. And the actual marketing is a lot more expensive considering the limitations of the marketplace.
Most railfan videos have been made by photographers on a very limited budget, and the time and effort that went into them outweighs the income received. It's not like the movies we see at the theaters, though costly to produce, they make high profit margins in most cases.
Believe me, I have firsthand experience. I did photograph (more correctly....videotaped) some head-end rides on railroad trains a few years ago and marketed them. Profit was minimal, considering the cost of buying blank tapes, duplicaing the material onto them, designing and printing labelling for the tape jackets, packaging material and postage and the TIME it took to do all of this -- not to mention the cost of the videocamera, etc. Fortunately, I was afforded permission to make these videotapes on board locomotives of a small handful of commuter operations without having to pay royalties or fees (well, I DID give the train crews who ran the trains, as well as the officials who afforded the permisson, copies of the tapes....)
Believe me, I have firsthand experience. I did photograph (more correctly....videotaped) some head-end rides on railroad trains a few years ago and marketed them. Profit was minimal, considering the cost of buying blank tapes, duplicaing the material onto them, designing and printing labelling for the tape jackets, packaging material and postage and the TIME it took to do all of this -- not to mention the cost of the videocamera, etc.
While it may seem to us that Rapid Transit as a hobby has a significant number of participants (because of this board, for one), it really doesn't. Under the overall unbrella of trains as a hobby, the segment of the market that's into trolleys or rapid transit (or even electric traction in general) is very small. For every 15 train shows that's devoted to "trains" overall, there might be 1 that's devoted to electric traction. And many of the layouts you might see at these shows are more "traditional" railroading - long freight trains under and over mountainous terrain with one or more industries along the route that the trains might serve. You'll see very few, if any,rapid transit style layouts at these shows; you'd have to go to a specialty show like the Boston Trolley Meet or the East Penn Traction Club show to see these types of layouts (and oftentimes you'll see the same layouts operated by the same people).
So companies that might consider creating railfan videos for traction fans are very, very few and far between. There aren't many in the overall picture. And the rental market for these types of videos is even smaller, probably not worth it for most of these companies to consider, given their cost. So that leaves it to the "purists", like myself, who try to fill in the void. As you said, I put a lot of time into it, but I do it because I enjoy it a great deal. And whenever I need to make a copy for someone, it's another excuse to watch all or part of the video again :)
--Mark
And I, for one, am very happy you do Mark. Long after the redbirds are gone I'll be watching your video of the 2 and 5 lines.
Bill
Thanks for the kind words, Bill.
In a few weeks, I expect to have somne new videos available. Stay tuned!
--Mark
i shot the # 7 with a tripod at the railfan window wide angle lens looking foward out to the front !!!
and day and night shooting on this line !!! plus the 2-5 A Q E and some N where does the r go ??
i only had a week to do this !!! hell $20.oo not much to ask for a six hour vidieo right ??
salamallah@yahoo.com for information ..
i shot the # 7 with a tripod at the railfan window wide angle lens looking foward out to the front !!!
and day and night shooting on this line !!! plus the 2-5 A Q E and some N where does the r go ??
i only had a week to do this !!! hell $20.oo not much to ask for a six hour vidieo right ??
salamallah@yahoo.com for information ..
Hi all,
Thought I'd mention a new TV documentary about the London Underground airing on the U.S. cable station "TLC" (subsidiary of Discovery). It was part of their "Super Structures" series. I saw it last night. Unfortunately the TLC site (tlc.discovery.com) is not very intuitive about how to find out when it might air again (the search engine doesn't seem to work and there's a few broken links in the TV schedule).
It covered, in no particular order, the building of the Metropolitan line, the City & South London (now Northern City Branch), the development of deep bore tunneling by Brunel, the usage of some of the tube lines as WWII bomb shelters, some infamous accidents (Kings X fire, Moorgate accident), the Jubilee line construction and how it was threaded thru the Westminster area and under the Thames, the new rolling stock, and the police and other security measures. Some nice, current scenes of trains and yards and maintenance facilities. Nothing was covered in that great a detail but it was worth watching.
-Dave
In another post, a SubTalker responded to Alan Hevesi's suggestion by saying, in effect, "OK. I'll pay it if you keep the Redbirds alive."
Seriously, what would you pay a higher fare to get? Weekday level service 7 days a week? Some particular kind of equipment? The Second Avenue Subway? A conductor and cop on every train?
First there is already a conductor on every train.
Now, here is my list
1) Field Shunting reinstalled.
2) Buy more trains so there is more frequent service
3) Build a new yard for the new trains next to my house
4) After step 1-3 is completed, bring fare back to $1.00. (That was the price of the fare when I was born. Does it give you a clue on how old I am?)
I guess you are about 12.
13 to be exact.
And I thought with the 75 cents it took to ride the subway to the hospital when I was born made me the youngest.
It's probably caused by all those nostalgic posts about the past, those threads are so long (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Ahh, nostalgia - just think, someday you'll be able to tell your grandchildren about "that great old subway car when I was young, the R-142", just like some of us pine for Triplexes and Low-Vs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, not really, I'll probably do that with the R-68 and R-46. I don't know if I'll really like the R-142 that much after the novelty wears off.
Only time will tell.
The fare was 15 cents when I was born.:) It was 20 cents when we moved to Jersey. I still remember using the dime-sized tokens.
I'll settle for restoration of field shunting. Anything to speed up the trains even by 5 mph. Of course, I'd love to see the R-10s resurrected and returned to the A line where they belong, but that's asking too much...
Field shunting will NEVER be resurrected. I'd rather have AC motors.
I guess Hevesi would say that the extra 35 cents is needed to keep service the way it is (I'd disagree -- some of his assumptions seemed a bit off, but I don't immediately recall which). But assuming you really did need to raise the fare to 1.85, I'd say -- raise it to $2.00. (It really annoys me when prices are raised to "odd" amounts -- like the post office going for a one-cent increase in the price of a stamp. Give me a 5-cent increase and I'll never have to buy a bunch of one-cent stamps again). But I digress.
Let's use that extra 15 cents to pay for three fairly basic items which I think would improve the subway rider's life underground:
1. Increased police presence during off-peak hours (a cop on every train after 8 PM sounds like a start).
2. Adequate car cleaning crews at each terminal 24/7. Increase station cleaner's and graffiti removal at each station as well.
3. A monitoring system in each station which shows where trains are along the line and whether or not they are moving.
Chuck
I agree with the $2.00. But raise it to $2.00 during peak hours only, with unlimited ride passes increased based on the assumption of 1.8 peak hour riders per day.
Unfortunately, the big improvements in subway service require new lines and connections, which we are unlikely to get anytime soon. We all know what those are.
With a higher fare and OPTO, however, we could go to one train every six minutes minimum except for the late night hours. In other words, more frequent OFF peak service to go with the higher ON PEAK fare.
Add a half-fare child discount Metrocard to the half-fare senior Metrocard. Reserve both for off peak use only.
Make the E express on 8th Avenue, and run it to Euclid permanently, adding a few trains per hour in Brooklyn. Run the C local to WTC. Eliminate the switch at Canal.
Extend the G to Church, and add more F's from Brooklyn AM and to Brooklyn PM -- balanced F service in each direction. Then add an F express, with half the Fs running local from Church with the G, and half express from Stillwell to take pressure off the Brighton(which cannot increase service due to the Manny B). You'd need more B division cars -- perhaps the platform extenders on the best Redbirds could provide them.
Stop work at Lawrence, and restart building that Lawrence/Jay transfer right now. Build the northbound Bleeker/Broadway Lafayette transfer right now also.
With the platform extenders, run more L trains on peak.
Repeal the state law forbidding pay toilets. Rehab the rest rooms, and contract them out to be manned, 50 cents per use.
Okay, everyone want to pay more. (Sounds like a bunch of Democrats here). What do we raise the 7 day and 30 day to. Earlier I suggested $19 and $68 - $70. I for one am against any fare increase, but it is going to happen evertually.
I am against paying more depending on how far you travel as they do on the D.C. Metro. That subway is more of a commuter rail road since it goes well out into Virginia and Maryland. D.C. is a much smaller town than New York.
It is not commuter rail. It is expensive and I would pay more if it was a flat rate here in DC. Some people pay $6.50 A DAY (to go from Shady Grove to downtown) which is A LOT!
As for the post office, they should raise the rate by two cents, so they can get it at 35 and make it nice and even.
(The Post Office should raise the fee to 35 cents, nice and even).
Actually, I think this backward-looking country should get rid of the penny altogether. Inflation is up approximately 10 time since WWII. That means today's dime is a 1945 penny. To covert back to (approximately) 1945 coins, you'd have a dime instead of the penny, a five dime coin instead of a nickel, a dollar coin instead of a dime, and a 25 dime coin instead of a quarter.
Things could still be priced in pennies (or mills, one-thousandth of a dollar for that matter), but cash purchases would be rounded off.
Why change? I've heard that since bills wear out faster, all this extra use of bills instead of coins costs $500 million plus per year. Is that worth it? And how about those bill changers on coin machines, or having to shove dollars in to buy a quick Metrocard.
(Transit relevance) With coins adjusted to today's money values, buses could continue to take them even after tokens are phased out.
Larry,
You are getting your wish.Rumour has it that the penny is being discontinued this year, so things will be rounded up. Also, dollar coins are coming this year too. I assume this will mean that dollar bills won't be made anymore. But this time the coin will have a "gold" color to it, so it won't be mistaken for quarters like the Susan B. Anthony. -Nick
Both rumors are wrong, unfortunately. The dollar bill is here to stay for the indefinate future, and the penny is sacrosanct to lots of folks simply because it's a penny. No Congressman would dare support legislation to eliminate the lowly copper cent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Even if it aint copper anymore.
I also think that the cent should be eliminated and the lowest unit should be the HALF DIME, new name for 5 cent coin. The dime already says ONE DIME on it and the Quarter and Half don't mention their cent value. The Dollar can remain, it makes sense, although the smallest bill should be the five. Ones and Twos will be coins.
Actually, I'm kinda partial to old Tom Jefferson, so I'd like to see the $2 bill replace the $1 as the paper standard. But I suspect that there would be as much resistance to that as there is to eliminate the single. If they had used their heads in choosing the vignette for the dollar coin, there might not be as much resistance to the idea of replacing the single. But Sacagawea means little if anything to most Americans, and even less to foreigners. I believe that the obverse should depict either Lady Liberty or the Statue of Liberty, each a symbol of our nation's ideals; the soaring eagle, symbol of freedom, is an excellent choice for the reverse. Our coinage needs to be meaningful, and the US Mint has strayed far from that ideal in recent years. The penny carries Lincoln's portrait - meaningful, but not necessarily in a positive way. Jefferson's bust is on the nickel - that's a good choice. Roosevelt adorns the dime - like Lincoln, there are many mixed feelings about that. Washington graces the quarter - but oh, what they're doing to the quarter now, turning it into a collectible rather than a coin of mass circulation! Kennedy, that scoundrel, on the half dollar - no wonder no one will use that coin. It's even less popular than Susan B. Anthony.
Here's my proposal:
Jefferson on the half dime (which, by the way, is the OLD name for it, long before they called it the nickel)
Patrick Henry on the dime (he deserves the honor)
Washington on the quarter (forget this state nonsense, let's have real coinage)
Liberty on the dollar
Franklin on the two dollar
The penny and the half dollar have been eliminated. Currency would begin with the $5 bill on up as they currently are.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Patrick Henry instead of Lincoln and Roosevelt? Man, the northern states are getting beat up all the time. At least you kept Franklin. How many Virginians to you want?
How about Belmont, Parsons, and Hylan? If we can't put them on coins, how about on Metrocards?
I selected Henry because of his "Give me liberty or give me death" speech. Liberty is a recurring theme in all of the coinage - Jefferson authored the Declaration of Independence, Washington led the American army to victory and served as our first President, Lady Liberty is obvious, and Franklin championed liberty above all else. I didn't consider anyone's home state in making my proposal. And, by the way, all but one of the figures on the paper money would be from the north - Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, and Franklin. Jackson, of course, was born in the south.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/29/2000
Mr.Mouse,
....or remove Lincoln from the penny and put Clinton there !! Or should we make that a 1/2 cent?
Bill Newkirk
Clinton can not be on a coin- the law says that only people who are deceased can be on a coin .
Well, he's been brain-dead for years :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
RIM SHOT!!!
Not to mention being a pathological liar.
I'd say if they're bringing out a dollar coin, and it's about time they did, the $1 bill should be discontinued if they expect the coin to catch on.
Where is there a law that says that?
That same law applies to stamps.
And when Liberty was on all the coins (except for the penny), does that mean that Liberty was dead?
Liberty per se wasn't a person. There is another law which requires that a coin portrait remain in production for at least 25 years. In that case, why was the Franklin half dollar around for only 15 years? Special legislation was passed to change the portrait to JFK. The downside was that it made the half dollar an instant collector's coin. I still remember when half dollars were regularly seen in circulation. After Kennedy was assassinated, POOF! - they disappeared.
I wouldn't waste the effort putting Clinton anywhere except maybe print his picture on toilet paper.
Thereby making toilet paper useless!!!!!!
Why is everyone so intent to change the currency system? First, what is wring with the name Nickel. Half dime would be incredably annoying to say. Every coin we have has its own seperate name. Nobody calls a quarter, a quarter dollar. Why on earth would ppl want to start refering to half dimes. A dime is so unimportant anyway why would it deserve to have its own "half" coin. All it could do is detract from the glory of the dollar. Sceondly, a penny is more than just a worthless piece of obselete currency, its a tool. Pennies make sales tax and bizzare prices possible. Merchants have the option of choosing whatever price they want and in some industries every cent counts. Without pennies how would chineese take out places get tip money. Whith out pennies who would you get the lights back on after a fuze blows. If you eliminate penies everything will rise in price (usually depending on sales tax) a few cents. If you take those all those price increases for every single you buy you'd be out like $50 a year. Pennies provide any number of essential functions like scratching lottery tickets, providing good luck to those who find them, being a source of mass in high school science projects and filling up otherwise wasted jar space. Personally I love pennies because, amoung other things, they make a great little frizbee. If thrown correctly they can travel up to 25 yards and that little thrill, in my opinion, is worth exactly 1 cent.
In regard to the dollar coin, I have already voiced my opinion about this subject in an earlier post, but they are too easy to loose and too easy to spend. If you have a dollar coin vending machine operators will be more likley to just round things to the nearest dollar. If we get a 2$ coin just see how long it takes for a machine soda to double in price.
Finally I would just like to state that only countries with weak economies eliminate their lowest units of currency. Are we Turkey? Are we France? No we are the great United States. A country so great that even a single Dollar is important enough and is worth enough to get its own paper bill. A country so great that even 1/100th of a dollar warrents its own coin made that contains at least %5 of a valauble metal by mass. If we get rid of the penny and downgrade the dollar to a 'PC' coin we will be no better than those countries in Europe and 10% unemployment won't be far behind.
Earlier in this thread, someone else pointed out that the purchasing power of the dollar has eroded so far that what cost a dime back in 1940 costs a dollar now, on average - and a lot of things, like housing and transportation, have gone up a whole lot more. A dollar truly isn't worth much, and the penny is worth that much less. Rationalizing our currency makes sense, unfortunately.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
YOu can say that or you can say that now its easier to pay/charge a more exact price for something.
You can still price things in cents even if you don't have them, just as property tax (and gasoline) is priced in mills -- 3 digits, although for gas the last one is always 9. All it means is you'd have to round off each cash purchase to the nearest dime.
The German Mark was a strong currency. Germany reformed its currency to fit the times. The Mark was a coin, not a bill.
First off, whenever you post a message about currency you make absolutely NO sense.
Why is everyone so intent to change the currency system? First, what is wring with the name Nickel.
We're not talking about changing the coin's nickname. Nickel isn't even an official name! If the cent is eliminated, then the coin can no longer say 5 CENTS, it will have to say HALF DIME.
Half dime would be incredably annoying to say. Every coin we have has its own seperate name.
What do you call a Half Dollar? A Halfie?
Nobody calls a quarter, a quarter dollar. Why on earth would ppl want to start refering to half dimes. A dime is so unimportant anyway why would it deserve to have its own "half" coin.
And a Cent deserves 5 Cents I'm sure.
All it could do is detract from the glory of the dollar.
Like the dime does that already.
Sceondly, a penny is more than just a worthless piece of obselete currency, its a tool. Pennies make sales tax and bizzare prices possible.
Maybe if you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd realize that this whole thread was about eliminating bizzare prices.
Merchants have the option of choosing whatever price they want and in some industries every cent counts.
Like what?
Without pennies how would chineese take out places get tip money.
Let me say that I feel sorry for your Chinese delivery guy. You ARE cheap.
Whith out pennies who would you get the lights back on after a fuze blows.
I didn't know pennies where such great alternatives to electric fuses! And all this time I've been wasting my time with those easily resettable circuit breakers.
If you eliminate penies everything will rise in price (usually depending on sales tax) a few cents. If you take those all those price increases for every single you buy you'd be out like $50 a year.
$50, well, there goes rent!
Pennies provide any number of essential functions like scratching lottery tickets
Like I can't do that with a nickel.
providing good luck to those who find them
Please, don't waste my time with this.
being a source of mass in high school science projects
Also replaced by nickels.
and filling up otherwise wasted jar space.
If you don't need the jar, THROW IT AWAY!
Personally I love pennies because, amoung other things, they make a great little frizbee. If thrown correctly they can travel up to 25 yards and that little thrill, in my opinion, is worth exactly 1 cent.
Wouldn't it be better if it was worth as much as an otherwise useless piece of copper-plated zinc?
In regard to the dollar coin, I have already voiced my opinion about this subject in an earlier post, but they are too easy to loose and too easy to spend.
If you're not responsible enough to budget your money, then the side effect is you help our economy work faster.
If you have a dollar coin vending machine operators will be more likley to just round things to the nearest dollar. If we get a 2$ coin just see how long it takes for a machine soda to double in price.
You'll see how soda machines will soon raise their prices to $1.25 and $1.50 anyway.
Finally I would just like to state that only countries with weak economies eliminate their lowest units of currency. Are we Turkey?
Turkey eliminated their lowest unit of the MAIN currency, as opposed to a now useless form of sub-currency.
Are we France? No we are the great United States. A country so great that even a single Dollar is important enough and is worth enough to get its own paper bill.
That has nothing to do with greatness, it has to do with the stubbornness of people like you in resisting change.
A country so great that even 1/100th of a dollar warrents its own coin made that contains at least %5 of a valauble metal by mass.
It does not warrant it. See above.
If we get rid of the penny and downgrade the dollar to a 'PC' coin we will be no better than those countries in Europe and 10% unemployment won't be far behind.
The great economist speaks!
Betcha didn't know that there is a sub unit in the U.S. Monetary system even smaller than a cent, The MILL equals 1/10 of a cent and of course there is no coin for it. The smallest denomination coin the U.S. government ever issued was the Half Cent until the mid-19th century. Half cent stamps were issued in the 1920's and 1930's .
And into the 50's and 60's - I remember my father buying 1/2 cent stamps (orange, with the portrait of Franklin) in the early '60s when doing non-profit mailing that cost 2 1/2 cents and the post office was out of the 2 1/2 cent stamps. Normally I had to lick about 150 2 1/2 cent stamps each month, those months I had to lick twice as many stamps, a 2 cent Jefferson and a half cent Franklin. And then there was the month Dad ran short (the mailing list had grown) and all he had left was a sheet of half cent Franklins - I had to lick five per piece, used almost the entire sheet!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why didn't you just use a sponge?
Dad was afraid I'd do them all at once (wonder why? something about experience?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I take it you're STILL trying to get the taste out of your mouth, and you only buy self-stick stamps?
-Hank :)
Interesting thought! No, my wife prefers the self-stick variety, but I can't bring myself to buy them very often - I'd still rather lick than peel. My parents sent gazillions of holiday cards every year and I had to help lick all those too. Several hundred envelopes and stamps, and Mother hand-addressed and signed them all too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Betcha didn't know...
How much do I win?
Getting back to the point here, I'm all for tradition, but there is a price to keeping currency as it is, and yes I've read its $300 million just to keep reprinting $1.00 bills, compared with the cost of more durable coins. And how about those bill changers in soda machines? We had a penny crisis here in NYC last year because they are worth so little that people just throw them in a drawer, and the government has to keep printing more.
At least with Metrocard, express bus riders don't have to come up with 12 quarters per day. But why not have the option of paying in cash with a reasonable denominated coin?
Worth so little....if I put 4 pennies each day in a jar, every day, for a year, I've got $16 or so. Not so worthless anymore, and that's lunch for 3 at my local McDonalds.
-Hank
After a YEAR! $16 a year is insignificant. Even for minimum wage earners.
Sorry. I told you what it buys. It's not insignifcant. I'll also say it buys 2 hours of a babysitter, a pizza and a 2 liter of Pepsi, 4 day passes...
My point is, if you eliminate the penny, prices will most likely RISE. Then those 4c a day start to really add up, because we all know that 4c worth of pennies is nothing. If you have them in your pocket, you sepnd them. If no one takes them, you may wind up with 25 or 30 in your pocket after a day of shopping. It's throwing money away!
I feel that we are heading towards the day where there is a VAT or a federal sales tax with all the on-line commerce, simply due to the losses that some cities and states are experienceing as on-line shopping (exempt from sales taxes) increases.
-Hank
(Sales tax losses from the internet)
Interestingly, New York (City and State) are far less dependent on sales taxes than most other states. We tax a narrower range of goods and services, though at a high rate. In NYC, because of the decision to keep out large stores to have people shop elsewhere, most of the revenues come from services, not goods. Can't have a restaurant meal sent to you over the internet.
So NY is doing what other areas do to NY -- not cooperating in an attempt to tax the internet.
Ironically, the same Republicans who are in favor of taxing spending not income are against taxing internet sales. It's called hypocracy.
Ironically, the same Republicans who are in favor of taxing spending not income are against taxing internet sales. It's called hypocrisy.
Larry, I wouldn't call it that at all. I'd call it a realization that it's going to be impossible to police effectively. Hank's right - if we choose to continue to collect taxes on consumption, it will be done on the basis of a value-added tax, most likely at the wholesale level rather than the retail level. This will help protect regular retail stores from internet cutthroats who have both lower overhead and who avoid sales taxes - the lower price will be largely offset by the shipping charge, so there will be significantly less of a gap in prices and thereby less incentive to buy sight unseen over the web - and will also benefit the semi-casual seller of used goods, who will no longer have the fear of being prosecuted for selling a half dozen items on eBay.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The problem with substituting a penny for a fuse is the fact that you lose protection in case of an overload. Instead of being the weakest link in the circuit, that spot is now the strongest link and will be the last thing to go. That's one cause of electrical fires. In a nutshell, it's a bad idea.
Joisey Mike's post was tongue in cheek, which I don't think Human's realized. It was just a bunch of funny uses of pennies.
Some were realistic. I ended up quoting the whole thing so it wouldn't look like I was omitting something because it was too difficult to answer.
Yeah, like the guy who paid his income tax in pennies.:)
Does anyone still have fuses?? I thought everyone had circuit breakers by now and its extremely hard to stick a penny in a cicuit breaker.
Older places do. They don't install new fuseboxes anymore, even if you already have fuses. There's also tamper-proof fuses (non-conductive treads), which prevent the penny thing, which I can assure you, is far more than an urban legend. I've seen it. And once they're wedged in there, it's near impossible to remove.
-Hank
Actually, at least as recently as two years ago, they DO still install new fuse boxes. I upgraded the service entrance in our New Jersey home because I was switching the kitchen from gas to electric and the electrician offered me the choice of a new fuse box or breakers. I installed breakers, but I still have two fuse sub-panels.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The banking system is based on cents (hundredths of dollars) - all the systems are set up so they can easily debit/credit amounts with an arbitrary number of cents (but no fractional cents). Therefore, coins which can physically embody such amounts (pennies) will remain necessities.
As for eliminating the one dollar bill, I don't think it is such a good idea. It would only serve to remind people of how much the dollar has shrunk, something politicians would rather not call attention to. In the unlikely event that the one dollar bill is eliminated, the two dollar bill should be resurrected.
Pennies are mainly zinc these days - at one point, they would have been worth more as metal than currency if they had remained all copper. The zinc lobbyists are the ones we should thank for keeping the pennies around.
On the other hand, popular opinion probably is to blame for the dollar bill hanging around. We'll see if the new dollar coin catches on. I think $500 million is a bit high, but we do spend a lot of dollars printing those dollars. I wonder if that has gone down with the prevalence of credit cards in commerce these days.
Not really. The need for big bills (over $100) has declined significantly with the advance of electronic banking but not the need for the small stuff. And call me a dinosaur but there are only three things I use a credit card for: airline/train tickets, hotels, and car rental. Everything else I either write a check or use cash. I may not have managed to stuff very much aside in the bank for the future, but the only debt I have is my mortgage. I got in quite deep a few years back when I was out of work for a year; just think what would have happened if I had already been in up to my eyeballs. Most people do use credit, though, for a lot of things, even groceries. Me, I just can't bring myself to do things that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Exactly, you still need small change even in a cashless society -- for bus fare and soda machines. That's why we need coins up to at least one, and preferably five dollars. I'd give up the penny and half-dime in a mintue, picture or no.
To de-polticize, I suggest pictures of some real American symbols: the Statue of Liberty, a television, a big car with tail fins, and a Big Mac.
Actually there's only one reason I use (or have) a credit card, is to make convenient charges, using cash would involve going to the bank, getting cash and then spending it, why use the middleman? There are always those check cards that don't work on credit. Other conveniences are with MVMs and pay at the pump.
I use my CC for just about everything I would use cash for, as do my parents. What would be the point of those 'earn stuff' cards otherwise? My mother NEVER has to visit a bank. Paycheck is direct deposit, she charges the weekly grocery bill to her American Airlines Visa, all other purchases to her GM Mastercard. When the bill comes, she writes a check to pay off the entire balance of the card. She's already gotten 2 round-trip airline tickets, and $10000 worth of new car money (used it once, it has now accrued to the max again).
I rarely shop in stores, so I buy on-line. A credit card is a neccesity. I use it as I would cash. I even charge my $120 MetroCard each month, although now that I am entitled to TransitChek from work, that will change, as there's no way for me to use the check in the MVM.
-Hank
They should do that in DC. On the buses here, you need 90 cents off peak on rush hour on Ride-On, and 1.10 at rush hour on RO or all times on Metrobus. NO ONE HAS THAT MONEY! They need it to be even numbers.
Also, the New York State sales tax is 8.25% WHAT'S UP WITH THAT? I mean at least make it 8 or 9% but 8.25%? And for one thing, I think a law needs to be passed that charges with FALSE ADVERTISING anyone who doesn't include tax in the total price. I shouldn't need a calculator to figure out prices and a complex chart to figure out what's taxable and what isn't.
There's another way to approach it: tax EVERYTHING. In North Carolina there are only two items exempt from sales tax: newspapers and the New Testament. Buying a Torah? That's taxable. Buying a prescription? That's taxable. Buying food? That's taxable. I love that state, but there are a few laws that drive me nuts and that's one of them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What can you say about a state that repeatedly sends a Jesse Helms to the Senate?
Hooray! I may not always agree with him, but I know that he is a man of honesty and integrity, and there is no doubt as to where he stands on any issue. I'm proud to have voted for him, and I'll gladly do so again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That smells illegal on the constitutional front 6 ways to Sunday.
-Hank
[re North Carolina's imposition of sales tax on almost everything]
[That smells illegal on the constitutional front 6 ways to Sunday]
States have very few federal or state constitutional restrictions when it comes to imposing sales taxes. For the most part, the federal Constitution is concerned only with state taxation of interstate commerce. And the various state constitutions generally give the legislatures _carte blanche_ when it comes to taxation.
Even so, I am surprised that North Carolina's exemption for Bibles hasn't come under a freedom-of-religion attack. Exempting Bibles might be okay if Torahs and other religious works also were exempt. But exempting Bibles, and only Bibles, sounds questionable.
It probably is, but there are so few of us in NC that no one has bothered to challenge it. Even with the Yankee influx of recent years we're something like 0.05% of the state's population
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As everyone on this board should know, the .25 in the 8.25 percent sales tax goes to the M.T.A. And well worth it.
The New York State sales tax is only 4%. The difference between the 8.25% in New York City and the 4% is the city portion of the tax. In Nassau & Suffolk Cty's the local tax is 4.5% so the total rate is 8.5%. In various counties throughout the state, you pay different rates. 6%, 7%, 6.5%, etc. The lowest you will pay in a county with no local sales tax is 4%. New York City had been a combined 8% for years, until 1982 when it went up a quarter percent for the "temporary" MTA surtax.
You're probably the only person I know that wants to pay more for something. I always buy a roll of 100 and would much rather pay $33 than $35!!! Also, that extra 2 cents for rounding out purposes could actually hurt or possibly put out of business companies that do mass mailings, especially if they're marginal now.
So we'd have less junk mail? Go for it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyway, buy paying more now, the Post Office could have enough extra funds to prevent a hike past 35 cents later, until they have to bring it to 40. Unless you die or move abroad within the next few years, you'll break even over time.
"As for the post office, they should raise the rate by two cents, so they can get it at 35 and make it nice and even."
Lets make it really easy and raise it to a dollar, then you wouldn't have to deal with change at all!!!
I want better service on the East Side. Until the 2nd Avenue Subway is built, it should be a priority for frequent service on the 4, 5, and 6. That does not mean 5 minutes waits at rush hour.
[Seriously, what would you pay a higher fare to get? Weekday level service 7 days a week? Some particular kind of equipment? The Second Avenue Subway? A conductor and cop on every train?]
1) PATH-style emergency alert buttons in every car.
2) A complete eradication of window scratching.
3) All station and platform areas blanketed by surveillance cameras.
I'd gladly accept a $1.85 fare if the TA would simply banish those @#$%& R40M cars from my J line. Those seats are simply torturous.
Those seats are the same as the ones on the R40S. I don't see a difference. Anyway if those were removed from service you would loose another semi-fast train.
Anyway if those were removed from service you would loose another semi-fast train.
Are you implying that present service is half-fast?
Nope. I'm just saying that since it is almost the same as an R40 it runs just like it. So that if the R40 is considered fast then by taking the R40Ms out you would loose some of the fast trains.
It is when compared to the good old days. The CPW express run used to be a dash in every sense of the word, even an all-out sprint. It's been reduced to a brisk walk or worse, a leisurely stroll.
For $1.85, at least give us frequent service and clean subway cars. And also comfort wouldn't hurt to be asked for.
R36Gary
2 car types rule the J line, the R40M and the R42. The R40M has those flat seats like the slants. They suck.
As far as speed goes, the R42 is as fast as the R40. And speed is not something required to run on the curve plagued, GT-laden Eastern division BMT lines. I often wonder how long it would take a train of R68 cars to get from Jamaica Center to Broad St. 2 hours? 3?
If two R-68s reached the Crecent St. curve at the same time, it would take 9.8 meters per second for them to reach the street.
Yes, that's the second law of hippo-dynamics. The first law states that rate of acceleration of an R68 is inversely proportional to the amount of scratchitti on it's windows.
A first-class seating section, as well as a lounge car on every train with a well-stocked bar and white linen tablecloths. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Articulated compartment cars with Mohair upholstered seats and mirrors....
www.bmt-lines.com
Forget $1.85. Bump it to $3 and:
• Build the new rail/traffic tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge. As for the outdated hulk, turn it over to the graffiti guys for a citywide exhibit. Then rip it down. Besides the williamsburg it is the city's most unloved East River crossing.
• Build the Second Avenue Subway from the Lower East Side to the Bronx, which would be involved with the new East River tunnel somehow.
• Build a southeast Queens line following Rockaway Blvd and 147th Avenue. This would perk up the floundering South Jamaica area.
• Build a new south Brooklyn line under Utica Avenue, and extend the IRT under Nostrand. Both lines can terminate at around Kings Plaza. NIMBYs be damned on the above two projects.
• Extend the #7 westward to Javits and the new waterfront Jets Stadium, and east under Northern Boulevard and Little Neck Parkway to Floral Park, and, oh yeah, a branch northward along the Whitestone that would serve College Pt and Whitestone.
NYers would accept a $3 fare, I believe, if it could be dedicated to this kind of aggressive expansion that could be complete by 2015-2020. For the poorest NYers, a discount can be effected somehow.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(New Yorkers would accept a $3.00 subway with aggressive expansion)
I'm not sure. Expansion is really only required in a few areas (ie. the East Side and some parts of Queens), so everyone would pay but few would benefit.
That's why the more I think about it the more the de-unification plan makes sense. If the Second Avenue Subway and its feeder lines were organized as a separate premium system with an express-bus fare, and was highly automated from the start, it could probably both cover its operating costs and contribute to paying off the bonds. Snobby Queens neighborhoods that don't want the subway would probably want the snobway -- it could be FRA compatible and share tracks with the LIRR.
Thats' the only way I see to get this thing done.
I grew up in New York and consider myself familiar with and comfortable in the subways, even though I don't travel them very much any more. Yesterday I was in town for a dentist's appointment and wanted to go from 23d & 8th to 58th & 6th, so I took the local down to 4th St. and then went down to the 6th line uptown. First of all, the platform signs were not at all clear about what train went where I wanted. I assumed it was on the local, but only the F came along there and I got on for a few stops. I then realized that there are no route-line maps on any of the trains, as there are in London, Paris, Washington, and almost every other major line I've been on. There is of course, the overall map, which is hard to read for a senior and also is often partially obscured by a passenger sitting in front of it, so you have to ask the person to move if you want to read it easily. I finally found a conductor who told me I'd find the Q on the express side, and I got to my destination without any more trouble. However, it seems to me that a panel showing all the stops for every individual train should be in every car. Even if the trains sometimes change routes, there is no reason why there can't be a slot in each train into which a clearly marked panel could be placed as each train begins its route. I'm posting this message here because I'm not sure whom to address at the MTA, and hope that someone here could pass that on. This is not exactly high tech, but it would make life easier for a lot of passengers--and not just seniors.
Well, it's not as if it hasn't been brought to their attention before; the IRT line trains mostly have these signs, even if they are occasionally wrong. I've seen them on the 1/9, 6, and 7. I don't remember offhand if I've seen them on the 2/3 or 4/5 but I suspect they have them as well.
Why this hasn't been expanded to the B division is anyone's guess. The fleets are mostly dedicated so it should not be that big a deal.
-Dave
p.s. the operators of this site (i.e. me) don't have any method to pass on suggestions any more than you do; the MTA seems decidedly against taking feedback/suggestions/complaints electronically. In fact, about 25% of the email I receive from the "Feedback" links on the site are what I consider "official" inquiries, complaints or suggestions intended for the MTA and I have a standard response letter sent back to those inquiries. (Most of these such inquiries are from people who think nycsubway.org IS the MTA, or they realize that the MTA doesn't have any email complaint line but complain to me instead thinking we're the next best thing.)
However, there are some MTA staffers who read/post here so hopefully the good suggestions find their way to the right people through them.
They have them on the 5. The problem is when the strip map for the 2 is on the 5 and vice versa.
They have them for the 2,4, and 5. It is not on the 3. The 2 an 5 swap cars often and you would see the 5 map in a 2 car and vice versa
They have them for the 2,4, and 5. It is not on the 3. The 2 an 5 swap cars often and you would see the 5 map in a 2 car and vice versa........
3TM
There aren't any signs on the B division because many of the trains are swapped(especially btwn. the N and B trains). It also seems to me that there's always construction on tracks on the N and B lines and during most of the construction B runs on N when there's work on the B, and N runs on B when there's construction on the N.
Amazing. I gather that some lines do have maps and now, thanks to some of the answers, I even know which ones tend to post the wrong maps. Also, Ken says that the B lines don't have signs because the trains are often swapped with N's. That still wouldn't prevent a route indicator being slipped into an ad slot if there was one. It would be nice if someone at MTA occasionally checks in to this site, but I'd be surprised if it would make much difference. Oddly enough, I suspect the MTA would like riders to think well of it, but I don't know if they can think through what's necessary to make that happen.
I just completed an evening trip on the 7 Line, from Times Square to Flushing and return, through the view seen by the lens of Salaam's video camera, stationed at the railfan window of what I guess to be an R-36. The sights and sounds were great. I enjoyed the trip, and Salaam's tape very much. I had never ridden on this line during the twenty plus years that I lived in the city, and as a result, found it especially interesting. The trip was fascinating and was marred only by the loud talking of several passengers who got on at 33rd St, on the return to Manhattan.
My thanks to Salaam for taking the time to make the tape, and also to heypaul for giving me the opportunity to see it! It is truly a transit fan's delight!
I was fortunate enough to travel on the last crew worked London Underground train this evening. A sad occasion for all as the 59's passed into the history books and museums. A full report at the weekend. So keep a look out. MIND THE DOOOORS !
Simon
Swindon UK
Are any cars/trains of the '59 and '62 stock to be preserved by the LT Museum? I heard they may not because they consider them to be a continuation of the '38 stock.
Anyone know?
A 1962 4 car set is already preserved by the "Cravens Preservation Group"-
cars 1506-2506-9507-1507, which currently live at Ruislip depot.
It is hoped that despite the LT Museum now having a working preserved
and restored 1938 four car set (cars 10012-012256-12048-11012)
that space can be found for a 1959 set, perhaps one half of the 7 car painted in 1920s colo(u)r!
unit 1044 -2044 -9045 -1045 (4car) or/and partner 1030 -2030-1031 (3car)
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Thankyou Rob,
Thank you for the response.
Now you have raised the question of the 1920-style painted set!
More questions if I may. I saw that set running complete as the whole seven car set at Morden in 1997 and managed to get some nice photos - it really looked something.
I have seen somewhere that it might also be preserved and I ask if you know any details of its disposition, future, etc.
The complete 7 car train does not work well together! The unit has
been split since early 1999 and the 4 car and 3 car "half units"
have been paired with other unpainted ones.
The 4 car unit has been stopped since late October 1999 after
a "door irregularity" in service ( meaning the guard had a 'pilot light' indicating all doors closed when that was infact NOT the case).
This unit has been stored at the rear of Morden depot since then.
This 4 car ( 1044-2044-9045-1045) was officially withdrawn on 23/12/99
.
The 3 car ( 1031-2030-1030) has been in use right up to the end paired with set 1300. This is still servicable but with the end
of crew operation its future is now at the hands of Alstom who own
the stock. Several preservation bids are pending however for
the complete 7 car or just the 4 car or 3 car.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Rob,
Thanks for the update.
Would you be kind enough to post any future information about those cars, also if the LT Museum becomes interested in '59 and '62 stock?
One of our colleagues (I forget which one but it could be BMT Lines) has a piece on our website today that enables us to download a very neat history of the BMT. It is quite well done, and they have the Green Hornet, the multi-sectional trains, the B type and my beloved Triplex. It makes great reading and it tells of the great tradition of the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit. God for it.
One of our colleagues (I forget which one but it could be BMT Lines)
Speaking of NYC Transit aka BMT Lines - has anyone heard from him lately? He was posting frequently till about 2 weeks ago then abruptly stopped.
www.bmt-lines.com
This may have been posted already, but I'd like to deliver the sad news that Father Cosgrove has passed away today. If you know who that is, there is no need for further explanation. If you don't know who he is, refer to page 172 of "The Subway" by Stan Fischler. This book was formarly known as, "Uptown, Downtown."
To make a long story short, he was an ordained priest who loved trains so much that he also became certified as a motorman.
I was informed of his passing by a friend who knew Father Cosgrove for 30 years. Father Cosgrove had suffered a stroke over the holidays which he apparently couldn't recover from.
A man who was so dedicated to subways, as are we, deserves a small mention on this board. God bless.
I met him when I was attending Loyola High School (about 25 years ago). One of my teachers told him that I had an interest in trains and he gave me a tour of the Coney Island yards. I believe he was also the chaplain for the Transit Police. Sorry to hear about his passing...
www.bmt-lines.com
Although I never met Father Cosgrove, I remember seeing pictures of him in the paper, and reading how he had also been ordained as a motorman. I thought of him recently, and wondered about him. He was well liked by those who knew him. May he rest in sweet peace.
I was saddened by the news today. I remember him well. He was a credit to the church and to our hobby.
First met nim in the 1960's, while I was still a highschool kid from the Bronx that spent lots of time at 370 Jay, Public Relations Dept.
He had some neat stories to tell too.
Reques cant in pacem, Father C.
I just got a call. I am shocked. Just last week I thought he was geting better. NYC has lost a great man. Father Cosgrove, God bless you.
My deepest sympathies. I only met Fr. Cosgrove 2/3 times but he was a very kind and intelligent man. His passing is quite a loss. I just hope there are a few Low-V's upstairs waiting for him.
BTW, my colleagues here may also have known Everett "Switchstick" White, a former PE motorman who lived on Long Island. He recently passed away also. He had a keen interest in (and was quite generous toward) the Hollywood Car at the Seashore Museum in Maine.
Hope this is the extent of our loss for a good while to come.....
What does "PE" stand for?
Jeff--PE probably stands for Pacific Electric the deceased electric railway empire out in California that operated a lot of interurban routes.
Yes, Pacific Electric. I believe Everett was a motorman elsewhere too, but I'm not certain where.
God bless him. Now the trains in heaven can run on time eh?
I didn't read the other responses, but Fr Cosgrove was the chaplain of the NYCTA Emerald Society. I believe he held that position since their inception in the mid 60's.
He did love transit and it's workers!
I met him many times since 1984 at the numerous ES functions. He marched with us in the St Patrick's Day
Parade many times.
A note about Cardinal O'Conner: Although he is elderly, and has severe medical problems, the man STANDS on the steps of St Patrick's until EVERY LAST marching unit passes him. He has always given us a warm welcome, with
a warm smile and wave.
All you Catholics out there--PRAY for him!!
Other Notes: SCM= Selector Cam Mechanism--This is the name of the actual unit that that sets up the proper motor acceleration/stepping sequence.
In case you ever see PCM, that's the pneumatically-operated version (Old equipment had it.)
It operates with a low voltage "pilot motor" rotating the SCM through a cam mounted under the high voltage "finger"
contacts. It only operates in one direction-You can go through SWITCHING-SERIES-PARALLEL, but if you want to drop back to SERIES, you must go to OFF (COAST) and then run up to SERIES.
EMV= Emergency Magnet Valve (circuit).
What this is, it's an electrical circuit that throws the entire consist into EMERGENCY simultaneously when any one car goes into EMERGENCY.
It is installed to prevent pull-aparts if an emergency cord/trip/other reason is activated near the rear of a consist.
As each car is in effect a locomotive (the FRA classifies it that way, that's why NJT is opting for more ALP-44's,
to avoid FRA inspection requirements-But that's another story!), if a pneumatic emergency application were initiated with the train in PARALLEL, the rear would try to stop the front, thus he pull-apart. Sooooo, the entire consist goes into emergency, all emergency contactors take the motors offline, and hopefully the consist comes to an uneventful stop!
Emergency Contactor= An electrical contactor with 8 circuits under it's control. When the brakepipe is charged, the train gets dynamic braking, motor power, and TO's indication.
When the BP is depleated, we lose indication and motor power. Also the EMV circuit is energized.
One more thing, when the Vent Valve is unbalanced and causes "BIE", it's the EC that does all the electrical switching.
Well, talk about a context switch! I can't figure out how
SCM got into this thread, but as long as we're here....
I'm pretty sure the S in SCM stands for Static, as in those
blue "Static Cards". Static is a GE term for Solid-State Control.
The SCM group was the first to use transistor circuits, in places,
instead of electromechanical relays. Tracing the design of
GE switchgroups back to 1904, we have
Type M: M=Magnetic. This was an all-electric unit-switch high
voltage group used on the Hi-Vs and Manhattan els. A lightweight
version was later used in streetcar control. Gerry O'Regan can
tell you more about that.
Type PC: Pneumatic Cam: A system using an electromechanical accelerating relay to electropneumatically control the advance
of a rack-and-pinion driven camswitch, the cams operating
the high-voltage contactors that made up series/parallel and
cut out resistance. Used on just about all low-voltage pre-war
subway equipment (Lo-V, AB, D, R1-9)
Type PCM: A refinement of PC adding addition Magnetic (the M in PCM)
Contactors to the PC group to provide dynamic braking. Used on
the R-10 through R-15 contracts.
Type MCM: Motor Cam Magnetic: This ill-fated system used two cam
switches, both now advanced by an electric pilot motor rather than
an air piston. One cam switch sets up the series/parallel or
dynamic brake loop circuits, the other cuts out resistance.
These were called "flat-bottoms" as the grids were enclosed in a
box with the control group and the whole thing cooled by forced
air from the motor generator fan. Used on R16, 17, 21, 22, 27 and
I think 30 contracts. Also a bunch of AB's got rebuilt with these
things in the 1950s.
Type SCM: Static Cam Magnetic: We go back to one cam to control
resistance, and magnetic contactors to set up circuits. Transistor
circuits are used extensively in place of relays. For whatever
reason, this is called "Static" logic, probably because it doesn't
move. The name is ironic because one thing transistors HATE is
static electricity. This system was used starting on either the
R-30 or R-32 order ( I forget) and it's modern descendant, SCM-I,
is used extensively throughout the fleet now.
Westinghouse....another day perhaps.
On a lighter note, I saw the new IRT cars on my home line, the Dyre. They look a lot like the R-110A. Let's hope they're built a little better. Is the TA letting passengers ride the new cars to give their opinions?
Train Buff Headquarters
Passengers won't ride for several months. And c'mon, get our opinion?!?!?!?! The decisions about the trains were made years ago, all that remains now is to work the bugs out during testing, build out the rest, and put them in service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
COULDNT BELIEVE IT !!! IT WAS SO WONDERFUL TO SEE !!! ( ok let me calm down )
while watching the T.V. news here in the los angeles california area ... a news report came in about
the snow and frezing rain conditions in NEW YORK CITY and the northeast !!!!
a man who was trying to get his car operational in the cold weather was being interviewed
PLEASE NOTE : I LIVED IN DETROIT MICHIGAN 1987 - 1991 and in ATLANTA 1984-1987 .....
so i know about having to take my automobile battery INDOORS TO KEEP IT OPERATIONAL ETC....
and so driving cross country during february march as i have done many times i know !!
while he was being interviewed in the background there they were ........... ( out of focus )..........
THOSE BEAUTIFUL REDBIRDS ON EL TRACKS RUNNING BY !!!! MAN !!! WHAT A SIGHT
TO SEE ALL THE WAY TO THE WEST COAST !! LIVE REDBIRDS ON THE T.V NEWS !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they were not that out of focus !!! ..... ( calm down now !! ) ...
I didn't see the original story in the Times, but I caught this paragraphs in Bob McManus' column in the Post today about William Weld, the former Masachusetts governor who is now talking about running for governor in New York in 2006:
***
He gives interviews, which is how New York came to know that Weld -- a Republican from the Nelson Rockefeller/John Lindsay (prep) school -- has a soft spot in his heart for subway graffiti.
"I mourn its passing," Weld told The Times. "I'm a big believer in urban graffiti as a humanizing force."
***
Sounds like a rich Back Bay Brahman who never rode the subway in Boston and now that he's in New York, probably rides it here even less than Hillary Clinton. No wonder Jesse Helms blocked this moron from becoming ambassador to Mexico.
(Weld) has a soft spot in his heart for subway graffiti.
You mean in his head, right?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Weld did a pretty good job up in Mass, but if he is serious about running for Governor, that is NOT a good start. The reaction of the average New Yorker to graffitti is "slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch..."
I guess Weld never visited NYC in the 70s and 80s when subway graffiti symbolized the decline of the system and of the city itself. Graffiti proved that no one was in charge.
Yes,I'm back with more heated views. First of all, Dan, I read the exact same lines of what you posted in a in magazine about two years ago. Why can't anyone be original anymore? Why is everyone afraid to take a strong stand including one they may not be popular?
Most of you know how I feel about graffiti. So, when Weld told the media,"I'm a big believer in urban graffiti as a humanizing force.", I had to agree. That statement just goes to prove he is a human. I'm not sure what he knows about politics, but for him to take such an unpopular stand and voice is shows that he is a nonconformist and not afraid to be true to himself.
I can understand what he means by "humanizing force". Think about it;there are certain things in culture which bring people together. One of them is art. Here's this well-educated man saying that he appreciates graffiti and another few million lower-class,minority, or young people can agree with him on the topic, that graffiti is beautiful. Tell me that doesn't bring people together?
This past Saturday I spent an afternoon walking through the South Bronx photographing architecture primarily when some fantastic "graffiti" on a wall caught my eye. (I quoted "graffiti" because this was of the legal kind, so according to some, it is not truly graffiti). I taught about 5 or so photos of a certain wall. I mean, these guys were pure geniuses. They has Princess Leia from Star Wars on the wall with space-age, modern looking graffiti lettering drawing attention to the nearby businesses. I mean, I stop dead in my tracks just to look at it.
I even met a few former taggers in the Bronx a few months ago. And these guys are the the real McCoys. The tagged during the late 70s/ early 80s time frame and are now some of the favorite artists on several graffiti oriented websites. They teach graffiti art courses over in The Point in Hunt's Point & have taught local kids to use their talent but to respect property.
You see folks, not only do we have graffiti artists helping bring crowds to local business and bringing people of different socio-economic classes together, but we also have art classes in graffiti teaching high-risk kids to use their talent to get out of the streets. Consider that before condemning Mr. Weld.
OK, but would your appreciation for graffiti end if the route signs on the trains were painted over? The windows? If the route maps are magic-markered into unreadability or if the platform route maps are rendered illiegible? Or would all that be OK, because that's the way it was from 1973 to 1985.
There may be a place for artistic expression in public places, but when it begins to interfere with others ability to get around in the system because they can't tell if that's an E or an F train waiting at the bottom of the stairway with its doors open, then it's got to go.
Weld's comment was either a very naive or a very stupid move if he's serious about a run for governor, since taking what he said at face value -- that he would like to see a return of 70s style full-train paint jobs -- the statement flies in the face of William Bratton's theory that if you allow a minor violation to go unpunished, it encourages other more serious problems.
Keep it legal, great beauty can be created with a spray can or air brush but unwanted, unauthorized painting is nothing but DESTRUCTIVE VANDALISM for which JAIL is the ONLY ANSWER
[This past Saturday I spent an afternoon walking through the South Bronx photographing architecture primarily when some fantastic "graffiti" on a wall caught my eye. (I quoted "graffiti" because this was of the legal kind, so according to some, it is not truly graffiti).]
But that's the essential difference. No one is condemning outdoor mural-type art that's done with the building owner's permission. It's a perfectly acceptable expression of the artists' imaginations, or however you want to put it. If that's what Weld is supporting, fine for him.
Illegal graffiti on subway cars or elsewhere is a completely differnent matter. It shows a defiance of society's norms, not to mention its laws, and in my view is an act of aggression. If that's what Weld supports (which I doubt is the case), he's a schmuck.
This discussion has been going round-robin for some time now. Peter, do you think that you can get the decadent, subversive criminal element to see the point of view of mainstream society? Don't waste your time with this subhuman scum.
[This discussion has been going round-robin for some time now. Peter, do you think that you can get the decadent, subversive criminal element to see the point of view of mainstream society? Don't waste your time with this subhuman scum.]
Reform them? Probably not. I fear that most graffiti "artists" are beyond hope of redemption, no matter what Bx55 says. But that's why we have prisons.
What do you suppose the People's Republic of China does to anyone caught defacing the Beijing Subway? Whatever the Chinese do, so should we.
Whoa! I don't know what they do, but whatever it is I suspect it's far more severe than what is warranted. Yes, I'd love to string anyone who defaces property up by their thumbs, but I'd a whole lot rather have them clean it up and redirect their efforts more productively. The SECOND time they do it, that's when we can have them shine the third rail!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/29/2000
They should be hand cuffed to an R-68 for 24 hours. You know, a R-68 version of Chinese water torture !!
Bill Newkirk
Who is that directed toward? Scum?
I been bombing for years with partners like cope,pj,and many others. Iwas one of the bronx kings.Graff is something you grow to love and there is no better place to do it then in my hometown of n.y.c.just remember kings destroy!!!!!!!
[I been bombing for years ...]
Too bad you weren't studying grammar.
I been bombing for years with partners like cope,pj,and many others. Iwas one of the bronx kings.Graff is something you grow to love and there is no better place to do it then in my hometown of n.y.c.just remember kings destroy!!!!!!!
YOU NEED JAIL & A TOILET BRUSH REAL BAD
Some of you people LOVe to knock things out of proportion AND context.
Some of you people LOVE to knock things out of proportion AND context.
John was responding to someone who bragged about a years long record of vandalizing and destroying (his exact word). His response was hardly out of proportion or out of context.
Alan Glick
.
Weld's from Smithtown, Long Island--he was a carpetbagger up there, not down here. If he grew up riding the LIRR you can see why he'd take a tolerant view to defacing trains.
I wanted to know how many (and locations) of platform-mounted signals in the NYCT system. I know of one at 105th Street on the Canarsie Line but no others. I assume there are other locations?
The Canarsie L train station has the platform-mounted unit for "wrong-railing" purposes (end of the Southbound side of the island platform). And being in close contact with customers makes for some vandalism: the one at 105th is missing it's lenses for the Green indication.
Doug aka BMTman
There is a platform mounted signal at 34th St/IND/6th ave. On N/B express tracks. Always wondered about this myself.
Peace,
Andee
Wall Street on the 4/5 has one s/b as well.
subfan
At Jay Street Track A4 (N/B) there is one at the very end of the platform.
-Harry
I first thought that station-mounted signals were something peculiar to the B Division, but with the previous post of Wall Street on the 4/5 that's obviously not the case.
Doug aka BMTman
On the N.B. plat at 145/Lenox Ave.
01/29/2000
Re: Platform mounted signals.
There are a few on the(N) Sea Beach. Maybe Sea Beach Fred knows which stations.
Bill Newkirk
I can think of one on the eastbound platform of the Market Frankford Line. The signal is actually nowhere near the end of the platform; but all trains have to stop before that signal anyway. The remaining legnth of the platform is for those attempting to traverse the free interchange.
That particular signal also serves as sort of a stopping mark for 10-car trains of slant R-40s or 8-car trains of 75-footers. I think it served a more useful purpose in the days when the express tracks ended at 34th St. and were used by BB and F trains when they terminated there.
If the entire R62A fleet is to be made into sets of five...then somehow, #1909 must be rebuilt, as this is the one car that poses a roadblockto the entire plan.
Is it possible to repair #1909 by cannibalizing the remains of old #1435, #1436, #1437, #1439 and #1440? (Out of #1435,1436 and 1439, which one is the best shape???)
Nick
Not easily! The car bodies are similar, not identical. They ues different propulsion, braking door and HVAC components too.
If you're talking about body parts they are interchangable with no problem. as far as mechanical parts such as HVAC and propulsion those are totally different. ones Bombardier and one's Kawasaki
Which body parts are you talking about? The bodies were fabricated by two different compaiies. The structural members are not in the same place.
Secondly, Bombardier and Kawasaki have nothing to do with the propulsion, air brake or HVAC. R-62s have GE propulsion while the R-62A use Westinghouse Adtranz. Etc Etc Etc
When rebuilding the 01400 fleet in Boston, there were 43 Westinghouse cars and 41 GE cars. This left one orphan in each group. One GE car was rebuilt into a Westinghouse car to make another pair - so it can be done!
Fortunately for the riders, those cars were scrapped a few years back, so this particular piece of handiwork does not survive as evidence.
Gerry
NYCT has converted an odd car into an even car. They have even taken large segments of cars involved in a coliision and welded them together to make one car. I know that a Ge car can be made into an Adtranz car or vice versa. I just felt that the posting I responded to was trying to convey the idea that it was a simple thing to uste a 62A to repair a 62..
So I take it this is why they are not, or were not, intermixed in consists.
Isn't making the numbers 10-15 like making double letters like the AA and CC?
No, the numbers 10, 11, 12 and up are common to everyone. Outside of the Eighth Ave. subway, the only other time people think of AA is when they're buying batteries or attending a sobriety meeting.
After seeing the article in the Daily news yestrday(or was it ny post, but it was in a newspaper called Bay News), the article said that subway cars were getting dirtier.
This i can totally agree with. I ride the Q train to work each morning, and i am seeing more graffiti on these trains and more scratches on the windows. I though the tA was keeping up with the graffiti and the Q line was ratest the cleanest in the system last year. Apparently, someone isnt getting the job done. Is there anything the Ta or the cleaners can do about this? When the R68's were there, this didn't happen.
graffiti is on the rise again and the TA has to step up a noch to keep on the ball of things. what the TA needs to do is at every terminated stop, have the cleaners inspect every car inside and out for graffiti and any left garbage.
News radio stations are reporting that the City is paying to train welfare recipients to be telephone psychics.
Officials say this is true, and point out that it's a paying job like any other, and that successful trainees will make $10 or more an hour, and save the City a fortune on welfare.
First thing, the City should call their newly trained psychics and find out when the Second Avenue Subway will be built!
At $2.99 a minute, it'll be the cheapest consulting contract the City has ever let. And the answers will be just as accurate.
Hey, why not use the workfare workers to build the 2nd Avenue Subway and all the other porposed additions the city needs. Just think, how much cheaper it will be if we pay these workers between $10 and $12 per hour, rather than union scale!
We can use the workfare psychics to put a hex on the union workers and bosses so they won't complain about non union workers taking away their jobs. Then once the new lines are built, we can train the workfare people to run the system.
Before we know it, we will train the workfare recipients to be government officials! They can be major, city council president, city council members, governers, congressmen, senators, etc. Pay them all $10 to $12 an hour, we will save a fortune.
Yeah, I heard that too, Paul.
I thought it was a Howard Stern type of gag! But it was WINS NEWS that ran the piece. Unbelievable!!
Doug aka BMTman
Not really. The 10 "psychic counselors" now have legal, long-term employment. While it's worth a good chuckle, it's still a great thing for this city.
[The 10 "psychic counselors" now have legal, long-term employment. While it's worth a good chuckle, it's still a great thing for this city.]
In addition, they can work out of their homes, potentially saving day care costs.
In all seriousness, we as a city need the 2nd Ave Subway. As a former resident of the Bronx, my way to get down to lower Manhattan was on the Lexington #4. Now, for those opposed to the idea of building the 2nd Ave Subway (and this means politicians as well), get on the #4 during rush hour (especially any station after 149th St). Then, when you see that no being (human or non-human) can actually board the train because of severe over-crowding, people would finally realize that the 2nd Ave Subway is a necessity.
Someone probably heard all those reports that too many of the homeless and people on welfare in New York as psychotic and got the terminology confused.
Even a person with an IQ less than 0 knows that the 2nd Avenue Subway will probably not be built within anyone's lifetime of those who post on this board except maybe me, R68A 5200, and any other teenagers/kids who post on the board.
Who knows of the life extending technologies the future will afford all of us.
Maybe we'll all live into the 23rd Century and see ground broken for the Second Avenue Subway only to see it stopped by Mayor Energy Beame because of a fiscal crisis.
To take a serious response to this, cut out the second (not the first) paragraph of the above message.
The Second Avenue El was built in the 1880s, demolished in 1938 and plans for it came into being around 1925, with unfinished construction being done in 1972-75. All the crap that happened to the thing took 50 years before construction would start and then was halted by the bad luck of it coinciding with a fiscal disturbance. When the IND was built, their first priority was the Sixth and Eighth Avenue Subway. Obviously, if construction is to begin on new public works in the future, the Second Avenue Subway will be #1 on the agenda, and if World War III interferes, then it'll be the Tenth Avenue subway or something that will get the shaft.
As for the city's current ineptness to commit to a major public work, that merely has to do with the fact that the cycle currently places us in a bad time for public works. The time will be good again in the future, and eventually will fall back again to our current state until civilization collapses. And since the whole story of the Second Avenue Subway is less than a century old, the predictions of everybody here who's middle aged would die before the construction are pessimistic (if not overly so). Humans have a record of either being pessimistic, or too conservative in prognostication. Let's not forget that it is almost impossible to predict the future, we can only see this by looking at most of the predictions of the year 2000 from even a half-century ago, or even a DECADE ago. People thought there would be flying cars and travel to other galaxies, and self-aware computers, but some people a century ago didn't even predict TV and even a decade ago nobody thought of the internet (they though there would be interactive TV).
Anyway, there are only two ways that the Second Avenue subway never gets built:
Civilization falls before the cycle returns to the point where the subway can be built.
Technology makes the subway obsolete.
BTW, I put these in order of likelyhood, 1 is more likely as we haven't the foggiest idea how teleportation can work, and helicopters won't become the next big thing. What is likely about technology is that it can make it more likely to built the subway. Less cost, less disruption, less time to build. Things today taking longer to build has nothing to do with technology, it's politics.
Today I read in USA Today about how it took 18 months to build the Pentagon and it will take 20 YEARS to REbuild it.
Well, it takes longer to rebuild things as they are in use. And part of the reason that the Pentagon needs so much work is they built it so quickly...
The plug has been pulled. WNBC TV on their 5pm news stated that the psychic line no longer will get the welfare people.
Today I left the TV on during the news and as I was holding down the vomit, they did a story on this. During which time they interviewed some people (which makes me want to vomit even more), someone mentioned that the only people who should be hired are the ones with the psychic powers. And you wonder why I hate TV news.
I think the psychic thing was a good idea. Any kind of work is better than no work.
Having the state sanction people becoming con men can't be a good thing. And besides, its not legal in all locations. For example, fortune telling is against the law in Suffolk County.
Speaking of Philly, Rocky supposedly lived in South Philly, and in the movie you see an El going by in his neighborhood. Is the Broad Street line elevated in its southern reaches, or was that an inaccuracy.
Broad Steet is underground except the last 3/4 mile to Fern Rock station. A platform was built on the north side of Fern Rock Yard, extending the line 1 station north of the original terminal, Olney Avenue.
Hollywood strikes again.
The El is definitely Market-Frankford El. Broad Street Subway is underground except the northern terminal-- Fren Rock.
I guess that where Rocky was training is near 46th Street station. An old insurance company is nearby.
Chaohwa
Philadelphia Trackless Trolley Ramble II
Sunday, April 16, 2000
Join us for a tour of SEPTA's three Frankford Division Trackless Trolley Routes Routes (59, 66, & 75). The trip will inculde some rarely used cutback loops located along these routes.
Trip leaves Frankford Depot, Frankford and Bridge Streets at 11AM and returns at 4PM. Tickets are $30.00, which includes a hoagie and soda lunch served on the coach.
For tickets, send check payable to "Harry Donahue" to:
Harry Donahue
1901-A Stonegate Lane
Stanhope, NJ 07874
Please include a self-addressed, stamped envelope for return of ticket(s)
An antique GM coach is being offered at additional fare from the New York City area. Please indicate if interested in riding this coach when ordering tickets.
All proceeds from the trip will be donated to the Rockhill Trolley Museum
For more information about directions, trip routing, etc., contact Matt Nawn at mwntrolley@aol.com
For information concerning tickets and the chartered coach, contact Harry Donahue at hadonahue@gateway.net
Harry Donahue? The KYW anchor?
That would be interesting. I've heard him mention a lot of things, but not trains.
Michael
For those of you who visit this site on a regulair basis the topic of "trolley Talk" might seem a bit antiquated, let me state catagorically that it is not.
To begin with; their are many active trolley fans throughout the entire world as well as the United States who are currently donating their time and services to help restore the few cars that managed to survive the onslaught of both time and wasteful destruction.
Growing up in Brooklyn during the mid 50's I was only aware that such "STREETCARS" had exsisted by the tracks that would periodically surface thru the tar on the streets in my neighborhood of Bay Ridge".
The Streetcar as it came to be known, as well as the first ElAVATED'S were and forever will be the very backbone of what you currently ride, complain, and take for granted, yet know to be the New York City Subway System.
I would suggest that in order to appreciate what you have, rather than take for granted, you first learn the history of how the system came about.
Currently many streetcar museums are located throughout the U.S. I'D suggest that you Locate one locally, It does exsist, and become an active member.
This past July my family and I came back to the city in order to do research, as well as re-kindle fond memories of our youth.
Once again, we had to ride the rails to & fro in-order to reach our destinations.
Once again the underground subway systems fragrant bouquet assailed our nostrils. Like pirates boarding a ship.
Once again we were jostled by the living moving mass of crowd we call humanity as we ran thru the tunnels to catch our train.
Once again we were bombarded by the sights and sounds of the underground venders trying to eek out a living.
Once again I discovered the thrill of waiting impatiently, walking back & forth, on a warm, packed platform constantly looking down the tunnel, peering into the darkness as if this would make the oncoming train's lights magically apear in the distance.
And once again feel that on-rush of air as the train entered the station.
Once again I re-discovered my sea legs while becoming another strap hanger.
And once again we experienced the thrill of what it feels like, to be packed like sardines, in a can, while traveling (at speeds of excess of forty miles per-hour) under the streets of the city.
One might think that I'm knocking the system by what I've written, quite the contrary I'm praising it, by the very nature of it's being.
The life-blood of it's experiences, we call the New York City Subway System.
First go to your local library and get a few good books on how the transportation system began in new york city.
Discover what it was up against. How the very creature you ride on a daily basis almost didn't come about, while taking so long to create, in the first place.
Its quite fascinating.
IN OUR SAVIOR'S NAME LORD CHRIST.
henry s halikas 01/28/00.
Hi Henry---- Welcome to SubTalk--- in case you are new to the site.. There are quite a few of us who remember and still ride trolleys. Just this Tuesday I made a couple of round trips on the venerable PCC's running on the Newark City Subway. Quite a few of us have gone out there, or to Philly, or to Boston. If I am not mistaken there is a special SEPTA PCC rail fan trip tomorrow morning. And just within the last year, I rode for the first time the Ashmont line in Boston and really liked it.
I was on the Coney Island Avenue bus yesterday afternoon, and noticed that they are rebuilding the southbound lanes going over the Belt Parkway, and the trolley tracks were visible about midspan.
We also have the Brooklyn Trolley Museum, run by Bob Diamond who has restored a couple of trolley cars, and who will soon be operating a mile long or so trolley line in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn.
Your description of waiting for and riding on the subways was very poetic. It made me think of the inscription on the Statue of Liberty--- Give me your tired......
You may have been misled by some of the griping here about the fare or the politicians, but there are a great number of juice heads here who share your love of trolleys and mass transit. Again, if you are new here welcome aboard and make yourself at home. Just watch out for a screwball name heypaul who occasionally posts under my name.
Paul's right, Henry.
And you'll also find here on SubTalk many of us who are very active in trolley museums, notably Branford in CT, Seashore in Maine, TMNY is Kingston, and Baltimore in MD. From time-to-time, you'll read that we have "meetings" or "field trips" to these Museums. In fact, this summer I'm planning to organize (with Mr. T's help) the first SubTalk field trip to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport.
Henry
Add my name to Paul and Todd and be sure that streetcar is spoken here thanks to our host. There is a lot of streetcar information on this site. We look forward to your participation.
Joe
Re: "Field Trip" to Sea Shore at Kennebunkport ... I'm thinking of sometime in July over a weekend, with maybe an extra day. Incl. wives/girlfriend & a overnight in Boston. There's a hotel on the end of the Green line that's right off Route 128 & Mass Pike so we won't have to "drive" downtown or anywhere near the "Big Dig". I don't think they sell the unlimited pass their anymore, so we'll need to get them in advance (so we don't pay full fare in to get them). The trolleys from there will provide a long & lovely ride into Boston where we could do a little sightseeing while riding some of the other lines (above & below the surface). Boston is a marvelous town ... walking is almost as fun as riding there. Todd may suggest a hotel on the North side of town that offers the same access to downtown & is also closer to Kennebunkport. We might go up to ME early the second day & leave for home right from their. This would let folks get to Boston when they could, spend a night on the town, then do a group thing the next day.
Mr t__:^)
E-mail me you interest off-line. I'll report back on-line to give others the opportunity to tag along. If the wives say no, it might end up being a rail fan only trip, but with all the rail stuff already penciled in, at least on my schedule, I have to at least invite her.
Mr. T.,
Sounds like a good plan shaping up. When I get up to Seashore in late March for Instructor Requalification, I'll look at the season's calendar to suggest a few good weekends that can be considered. I would like it to be a weekend WITHOUT other special events going on, so that we can have most of the facility in normal operation. I'll keep you informed!!
We here at the BHRA could use a couple extra willing extra hands down here in Red Hook. Contact me offlist for details at janbert@smartec.com.
We're working over the winter to finish reassembling ex-Boston PCC 3303. There are a couple of things that need doing that don't involve crawling under or climbing on top of the car, and some that obviously do. Know how to silver solder?? C'mon down. Know how to read car electric diagrams and understand them? C'mon down. Like to clean and paint? C'mon down. The shop has heat now (but dress warm anyway), and hot/cold running water, plus regular amenities. I will have some more time on my hands now that my consulting projects has slowed down a bit, so I will be down there more often than my usual Saturdays.
#3 needs minor paint work and some polish.
Plus there are other projects coming up that need following up on.
Check out the latest issue of Brooklyn Bridge.
Jan
Congrats to London for finally seeing the light. Rumor has it that they will start running their trains 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
No it won't Josh...
only over the New Year Millenium period where running took place 24 hours , this being the first occasion of 24 hour running.....
since 12th May 1937 for the Coronation of King George VI.
.
24 hour running is not possible as maintenance can only be carried out in "tube" sections overnight. We have no local/express tracks
like you lucky folk in the Big Apple.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Train 095 left South Station this morning at 620AM, powered by an AEM7, the first electric train to leave Boston under its own power.
Train 012, the "Fast Mail", arrived at 121PM (61 minutes late) powered by an AEM7, the first train to arrive in Boston under electric power. The consist was:
AEM7 937 and 933, F40PH-2 316, Capstone coach 82004, coach 21053 and 21651, cafe 20013, and MHC 1453 and 1519. The coaches and cafe were all in NE Direct livery. The train arrived on track 10. There was no media present, only several railfans including myself. The F40 provided power over sever dead sections of wire. The train had to wrong rail at several locations since the wire over both tracks is not yet energized.
Regular electric service will begin next Monday, Jan 31st.
It's about time that electric service has begun out of South Station in Bean Town. Having to travel via Amtrak, I hated waiting in New Haven for the electric train to detach itself from the rest of the cars so that a diesel train can attach itself to the train for the rest of the voyage to Boston. With electric service, hopefully the trip time from Boston to New York (without delays) can be reduced by at least 20 minutes.
Speaking of inconvenience, when I was last up there in August, the "Big Dig" was still going on. Is there any end in sight as to when they are going to stop digging?
Oh yes, the "Big Dig" is coming along very well. It recently celebrated its half way point with a big pullout section in the Globe. The Leverett Circle bridge is done and the towers for the cable stayed bridge are going up. Last week an entrance to the Artery downtown was closed, and they are floating the first sections of new Mass Pike tunnel out into the Fort Point Channel currently. The old Broadway Bridge and New Haven RR bridge were recently razed. Traffic patterns change all the time.
Check out www.bigdig.com for the latest. I can't wait till its done, I think it's a great project, but (sob) it doesn't include the North/South rail link. But the trolleybus subway to the Seaport is coming along nicely too, so transit didn't lose entirely.....
Also we're getting an entirely new North Station (commuter rail, green line, and orange line) but that's not really related.....
I never understood why they never connected the North Station to the South Station... it still puzzles me to this day.
As for the new North Station, it's about time they renovate it.
There once was a connection between the two. It was called the Union Railroad aka: The Railroad that Came Out at Night. It was all street running with offices and yard on the west side of Atlantic Av. near Commercial Wharf. It followed Atlantic Av., Commercial St., Causway St. and Accolon Way, with a curve through a corner of the Anelex (B&M) Building. A branch extended down Northern Av to the South Boston waterfront. The line was noted for its tight clearances, thus passenger equipment could not be interchanged. It died in the late 1960s.
A less direct connection was the Grand Junction Branch through Cambridge from Beacon Park. That still exists as a GRS-CSX interchange and as a connection between the two commuter rail divisions. It remains officially part of CSX. Trains on the 'Inland Route' (B&A) could reach North Station via the Grand Junction, but the ride would be slow due to curves and multiple grade crossings.
Gerry
Which Leverett was Leverett Circle named for - Governor John (Massachusetts Bay Colony, 1673-1679) or President John (Harvard College, 1707-1724)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Relatives?
Yes. Governor John is my 8G-Grandfather, President John is his G-Grandson (I'm descended from President John's brother Knight Leverett).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So you are an old New England Yankee, hanging out with the New York Yankees! :)
...the land of the bean and cod, where the Cabots speak only to Lowells, and the Lowells speak only to God!
I suspect Gov. Leverett but I am not certain. Given the choice between a politician and an educator, the "Great and General Court" will always go with the politician.
While waiting for the commuter train at Mansfield this morning at 7:09am, an ACELA Regional electric went zooming by at (I would guess) 80+ mph.
When I got to South Station, there was a celebration about to begin, including a band, refreshments, etc. for the 9:00am VIP/press train; you should see stuff on TV tonight. I would have gone to "cover it,", but my work schedule wouldn't allow a day off today.
I saw a train arriving with one electric engine and one diesel (diesel in the lead) at about 1:00 PM today in Roslindale. The electric had the pan up, so it was working.
Unfortunately, the project to bury the traffic jam will continue for four more yeears....
????
Afaik, the AEM-7s can't MU with the diesels, though I could be wrong.
Is this electric service the official changeover from Northeast Direct to Acela Regional? Has the ticketing system, food/beverage service, and other things that Amtrak have promised improvement on come true? Hopefully yes. Can't wait for the next big thing, Acela Express!! -Nick
Not quite. ACELA Regional officialy starts Monday, though based on what I've seen (no inside info) the changeover will be gradual, not overnight.
HAPPY RAILFANNING! The rarest photos will be of the changeover, not so much before or after.
And the timetable for the new electric service lists trains at 3:59; down from 5:00 - 5:20 for the diesel service. It will be interesting to see if the trains can make the under four-hour mark with the single tracking still required, plus the congestion with commuter rail in the PVD-BOS corridor!
plus the congestion with commuter rail in the PVD-BOS area
Tell me about it, Todd! A few weeks ago I took Amtrak to South Station during the rush hour. I would have gladly gotten off at Back Bay Station if I knew there was going to be a 45 minute delay waiting for a track in South Station! -Nick
In Boston, Amtrak always yields to commuter trains, local freights, light engines, deadheads, switching moves and stray handcars. In keeping with this hierarchy Acela Regional will be superior to Acela Express, but inferior to all of the above. Interestingly enough, the MBTA commuter trains are superior to the last five categories, but not to CSX through freight. Lowest in the hierarchy is Guilford through freight which is inferior even to Amtrak, except at operating speed (<30mph) on home rails.
What are the changes planned to these? How do ticketing, food/beverage service and those other things work now anyway?
And now Boston joins the rest of the NEC.
Since that railway fiasco is done with, let's move on to toher train things we thought would never happen.
Forgive my asking the same question again but nobody seemed to have an answer:
Scenario: Train negotiates a series of GT signals approaching a sharp curve. Immediately after the lead car clears the curve, the operator slams the controller to full, and the train begins to accelerate, even though there are still 7 or more cars to go through the curve. The train does not derail.
Yes, I know there is signage to indicate when the full train has cleared, but many (most?) operators accelerate way ahead of them. So what gives?
Here are some guesses:
1.) The lead trucks are more susceptible to derailing than the others?
2.) The train accelerates slowly enough that by the time it reaches a speed excessive enough to derail, it has already cleared the curve?
3.) The speed restrictions are so ultra-conservative that it really doesn't matter?
4.) Sheer luck?
5.) None of the above.
Anyone know?
Bill
Operator's safety first.
Joe C
Basically 2+3. The GT speed is the "balance" speed, i.e. the
speed at which centripetal force balances superelevation.
At that speed, in theory, you don't feel the curve. The speed
needed to cause a derailment is much, much higher, maybe twice
the balance speed.
The GTs on curves are mostly to keep the speed down coming into
the curve. Once in a tight curve, binding action acts to
retard the train. Even if you play the timers exactly right,
wrap up as early as you can, and pass the last GT just as it breaks
from red (which of course is a no-no), the train would never
be able to accelerate enough to cause a problem by the time the
last car is leaving the curve.
Also, to be picky about rules, just because the timers clear doesn't
convey authority to increase speed. At the entrance to the timed
section is a yellow speed restriction sign, and the restriction
is in place until another speed sign is passed, an "R" sign is
passed, or a station stop is made.
Read that last paragraph well, then take a 2 or 3 train Northbound into Nevins St and let me know what happens!
Hey, that's "theory". We both know there are tons of places on
both divisions where fixed plate signs are wrong.
90% of the timers out there are SLOWER than the posted speed.
We should perhaps change the name RTO to STO (SLOW Transit Operations!!)
The current regieme of managers are SO AFRAID of loosing their "phoney baloney jobs" with another collision/derailment, trains are slowed down to a CRAWL!!
Installing more timers/wheel detectors only provides work for the contractors who, I have it on good authority from the Eastern Car Forman's meetings I've attended, where I've actually met and talked with them, they "reward"
certain TA employees (they won't tell names) for "awarding" them the contracts!!
WHY was a GT installed on 4 track entering Nevins street and why was the hooligan on 3 track (Lexington ave) Fulton street made into a GT? If anything the GT SHOULD have been installed leaving Fulton St NOT entering the station how god damn STOOOOOPID! these guys in RTO really have the heads burried up their a**es
I agree. I deal with this every morning on my 3 train. It does not make any sense at all, at all, AT ALL!!!!!!!
3TM
As A T.S.S. on the Lexington ave lines the reason this was done is because of the past collisions in the system. When you enter Fulton street in multiple and you keep it on the post you will derail leaving at that speed. So, let's say a T/O falls asleep at the controls that timer will trip you prior to entering that curve. The same is true as to why the timers were installed entering 125 trk 3 on the Lex. Look for more timers to come in the future.
the knuckle head surely doesn't always derail on the first try but passenger comfort suffers particulary in the last car. IMPROPER OPERATION is something that you just posed is something that leads to more and more timers installed systemwide slowing down trains. The posted speeds are for the safe operation and for passenger comfort while the train is negotiating the curve of switch involved and ALMOST always a GREEN RESUME for the number of cars being operated are posted after the trtain clears the area in question. Plenty of train operators think they're going to save a bunch of time exceeding the speed of curves and switches surely won't have an immediate impact TILL the train they operate derails and injury occurs. Switches these days are maintained (also tracks) way better than the 1970's and 80's where during the early 80's derailments were occuring and average of 1 derailament every 18 days. Today it takes alot to put a train on the ground several hundred hotshot motorman may exceed the speed on a particular curve till one day that track just gives out and it may be fatal..
Passanger comfort? I though all speed restrictions were for safety only. Personally, getting me to my destination as fast as possible is more important than having the train rock a little because it's going fast around a curve.
Besides, whipping around curves can be fun. Riding a redbird on the #2 line as it whizzes from 72nd St. to Times Sq. might be as close as you can come to a roller coaster ride on the subway.
The issue of speed on curves, passenger comfort, and a fast ride is still a sore issue with me. When I am in the rear cars between Grand and Broadway Lafayette, and I get a real uneasy feeling as the train seems to barrel around the curve, I don't find that fun at all. I think passenger comfort and sense of security is very important.
I would like to defend or at least state that the TA's tendency to be very conservative about speed and safety is understandable. If you were head of an agency, and an accident occurred involving the loss of life and injuries, I'm not sure how responsible it would be to say that it was a 1 in a 1,000,000 bit of human error.
While I am writing this, I am surprised that the MTA does not install a trip speed recorder in the cabs, whose purpose would be to monitor the adherence to safety. In trucks they have the speed recorders that trace out on a piece of paper the speed of the truck at all points in time. Well, why not a trip recorder on the trains, that would digitally encode speed and have it correlate to the exact position of the the train on the route. If the train operator was operating at a reckless or dangerous speed at a given point, then a red flag would go up. Maybe, with a device looking over the operator's shoulder, there would be less of a need for extra external slowing devices. People in cars tend to be more careful when there may be a speed trap, or an intersection has cameras.
They still can't come up with an accurate speedometer for us: you want something to accurately record speed? As has been stated before, so many of the fixed signals are wrong, half the time its guess as to what speed you should be doing. Case in point-
The rule states: When going to the left or right over a switch, the allowable speed is 10MPH, unless posted otherwise.
Going SB on 1 track from 79/Bway, you see a Green over Green homeball. As you come closer, you find a 20MPH sign. Immediately after the ball is a D 15 sign (allowed 15 mph over switch). Instantly, your train goes to the right OVER a switch. 6 car lenghts from the switch, is a 35MPH sign. How fast should the train have been going? Which sign is wrong? Why can't any three TSS's answer this question the same?
I am the fourth T.S.S. that can't answer that question. When I worked the #1 line I took that switch at 10 M.P.H. because of the rule that you stated about going right or left over a switch.
Alex---- Could you walk me through your last two paragraphs at about 2 MPH?
(The rule states: When going to the left or right over a switch, the allowable speed is 10MPH, unless posted otherwise.) Does that mean when your train is changing tracks over the switch going to the left or right?
(Going SB on 1 track from 79/Bway, you see a Green over Green homeball.) Is 1 track the downtown local track? A green over green homeball would mean you are not switching, you are staying on the local track.
(As you come closer, you find a 20MPH sign. Immediately after the ball is a D15 sign(allowed 15 mph over switch) Instantly, your train goes to the right OVER the switch ) The D15 sign does not seem inconsistent. It is allowing you 15 mph instead of the understood 10, if you were switching. Now when you say that your train goes to the right over a switch---- you are not saying that you switched over to the express--- you are saying that you went over the switch but continued on the local track, but beared to the right.
(6 car lengths from the switch is a 35 MPH sign) I am not really familiar with this area. Is the switch just from local to express, or is it both ways? If it's just local to express, then coming into the switch you are allowed 20 mph, and then slightly past the switch you are allowed 35MPH.
Isn't it possible for the union to ask the people who are responsible for the speed limits to clarify this problem? I'm sure that there is a hard-nose engineer who would be happy to tidy up the mess. Maybe if Jeff H and Steven Bauman have concluded their discussion of arcing, we could get them a grant to study the situation south of 79th. (Again my apologies for needling you two )
Gee--- I wish Jeff Rosen was here, and maybe we could do an Abbott & Costello routine about going right over the switch.
Doesn't the "D 15" mean that "15 miles an hour is the maximum allowable speed permitted over the DIVERGING route" as opposed to the main route governed by the green-over-green home signal?
Wayne
The speed limit D15 would apply to moving left or right over a switch regardless of the signal aspect. Example: North of 135 st on the # 2 & 3 line the #2 train diverges right for White Plains. This is the mainline and will display a bottom green aspect. The Lenox line which is straight track will display a bottom yellow. There are other places were the diverging route would receive a bottom green.
You go 15 until you are clear of the switch as indicated by
a 10CAR marker or an R marker. The 20 and the 35 apply
to straight-iron moves. Not that they make much sense where
positioned, of course.
A mainline aspect on a home signal even though the train is PHYSICALLY diverging to the left or right is subject to the speed restriction. I can't name the locations off the bat but I do remember from the lower level at w 4th street the local track if a main line aspect is given (F line) the train physically goes towards the left while a Diverging aspect takes you upstairs to the 8th ave line.
On the Pelham Line entering 3rd ave 138th st northbound the home signal displays mainline(3 track) you are moving to the right 20 mph
diverging M track is straight.
Umm....yeah. I don't think I said anything different.
The 10 MPH unless posted rule applies to the iron, not the signal
aspect. You can have a bottom green but you're turning out, or
a bottom yellow and you're going straight, or at a crotch switch
it's a turnout both ways. There are also trailing-point moves
where you get a bottom yellow.
Well, Jeff, the honors go to you (as far as I'm concerned). Your way of looking at it is the same as mine. The 20mph sign governs the straight move onto the spur track N of 72 St; the D 15 governs the mainline routing on track 1, andthe 35 MPH sign has no business being where it is, because the train is not clear of the switch. There is no R marker; the station stop is what makes the speed restriction go away.
I can not think of one single speed related derailment around that particular curve in it's 22+ years of operation. No need to feel uneasy. I do get an uneasy feeling on the downtown Lexington Ave express if it speeds towards Union Sq. because of the deadly wreck in '91.
That happened as the train crossed a switch. If the switch is set for the diversion, the wheel detectors are working, and the train can't go faster than 10 mph without going into emergency. Don't worry.
My concious mind understands that. However, fear is irrational and sometimes logical explanations don't do anything to relieve it.
Chris---- Now that I just got done persecuting Alex with my questions, I can turn my attention to a major flaw in your case. You have been arguing that you want the trains to run fast, and that passenger comfort is not as great a a concern to you. But then you just stated your own discomfort in the area where the horrible accident happened around Union Square. And then you left the door open. You stated something to the effect, that you know in your mind that the area is safe, but your fears are irrational and you are uncomfortable. I have no problem with your admissions, they sound very honest. Now when I'm going between Grand and Bwy Lafayette ( in a train, not on the roadbed ), my body is getting signals both internally and from my hearing that the car seems to be moving very fast. If it is hard to convince your mind that things are okay, the body has a whole nervous system of its own that is even less governed by logic. I rest my case.
GT's there now, I think. Last few times I went through there we were slowing, slowing, slowing once we passed 23rd Street, and by the time we hit The Switch, we werent' going any faster than maybe 15.
There is one place where I find a GT has no business being - on the S/B "D" and "Q" between 7 Ave & Prospect Park - GT #409. What purpose , pray tell, does THIS serve?
Wayne
The timer mentioned (north of Prospect Park on the southbound Brighton Line) is the successor to a timer put there many years ago. As I understand it, the timer is there to prevent a train from barreling into the Prospect Park station, overshooting the platform, and fouling a Franklin Avenue train crossing from the southbound to the northbound shuttle track south of the station. Now, when was the last time a Franklin Avenue Shuttle train did THAT? BTW, it's called a grade timer, but it shouldn't be, because that's an UP-grade!
David
Two things I forgot to mention:
1. It's not actually A timer, it's a SERIES of timers.
2. They're signed for GT40/ST20, but almost every Train Operator takes them at 25 or less when they're set up for GT mode, which is most of the time.
2a :-). These timers, while signed for GT40, actually are designed to clear at 44 mph!
David
Yes, we noticed this pesky GT last time we rode out there (Oct.27) and it ruined a perfectly good sprint by #4230, southbound on the "Q". He'd just gotten up a nice head of steam then -BZZZZZZZT!- GRADE TIMER! Boooo! Hisssss! He slowed to 25MPH then to 22 then to 20. By the way, a T/O would have to be guilty of a serious breach of operating procedures to go charging all the way into and THROUGH Prospect Park station. Isn't the Station Timer sufficient to handle any cowboys plying this route? Perhaps the GT should be placed a few hundred yards down the tunnel towards Prospect Park.
How can a T/O tell which mode this particular timer is operating in or does he have to guess and err on the side of caution?
#4230's motorman made up for the little delay by going at a good clip all the way to Sheepshead Bay, dusting two "D"s in the process.
Wayne
If a timer is set up for GT operation, a lighted "S" will be displayed below the yellow signal aspect (until the signal clears to green). If the timer is set up for ST operation, a lighted sign indicating a speed (such as "20") will be displayed below the red signal aspect; this will be followed by a yellow without an "S" sign, then by a yellow with an "S" sign, then by a green.
David
Didn't that southbound Q we took on Oct. 27 make all local stops? It was jammed to the rafters when we boarded at Prospect Park, then at Church Ave. almost everyone got off. The northbound jaunt after our Stillwell Ave. expedition was fun, though. We left, IIRC, Sheepshead Bay at the same time a D train did and, well, you can guess who won that one. I even caught a glimpse of the pre-Chrystie St. BMT tunnel which once tied the north side tracks of the bridge to Canal St.
"Black Boxes" are an FRA requirement for RR's. The TA is currently exempt from their regulations.
The R-142's have them, and all subsequent orders will.
I seriously doubt if they will be installed on existing in-service equipment.
All NYCT cars have RS232 ports on the speedometers. They were provided in case the TA opted for a redimentry 'black box' if required to do so.
Ahh my friend that is all to come in the future with CBTC patience The R142 has event recorders and the new signal system to come in the future known as Communication Based Train Control will have all the bells and whistles which probably record all the data imaginable such as who-what-where-when. As for recording who is operating improperly on a stretch of track or whom ever goes BIE due to hitting signals and possibly even overrunning stations it just may be on the horizon my son... wax on wax off wax oon wax off
Is that GT @ 50St still there? I have not been uptown in a while???????????
3TM
Northbound #2's and #3's (especially the #2's it seems) put out the "No Fear" signs as they come barreling into Wall Street. I always make it my business to grab a strap or a standee pole as we approach, but many other times I've seen unwary passengers get tossed around.
A.Pardi Jr. is correct regarding the placement of "R" (for resume) signs after curves and timed sections.
Wayne
My work station. Yes I have seen people get tossed around as well........
3TM
Lets put it this way getting the riding public from end to end in a timely fashion is one thing HOWEVER BUT Safety HAS WAS and always WILL take precedence to SPEED sorry but that is the truth. if you've riden up front and at the almighty railfan window and taken a look at all the new Grade Time signs and signals oout there, they are there for one reason only to control the speed of a train due to grade(usually donwhill) or a curve. We used to be called COWBOYS but the more and more follks complain" oh that train operator operated too fast aroound that curve or entering the station" or the more t/o's hit signals or run out of stations MTA is covering itself before someone is hurt or killed and I can't say they are wrong for that.
OTOH, there's that nice, inviting straightaway down 7th Ave. Too bad it's only a mile long and not five miles...
let's see Fulton street on the 4/5 n/b posted speed 15 mph hmm T/O wraps it around leaving the station all the way into Brooklyn Bridge maybe they take a brake application to soften the the rock and roll my prediction a GT will be installed in the not to distant future I still can't understand the GT Hooligan midway in the station? help me out here? looks like 116th street 4 track northbound the possibility for GT also 15 mph posted speed everyone wraps it around entering the station(sorry but its th truth) and I hate to see it but 1 track entering 59th street posted speed 25 mph ..
these are only predictions I possibly can even see on the B-D-Q north and possibly southbound between Grand Street and B'way Lafayette ahh I miss that curve in both directions lets talk whiplash!!
Denver's light rail line has one extremely sharp curve as it turns east just after passing beneath the Colfax Ave. viaduct. That curve ranks up there with the one 5 trains take as they enter 149th St., but I'd have to say it's even tighter. The LRVs take it at 10 mph, tops.
There is to be a very big railfan show in Springfield, Massachusetts over the February 5-6 weekend. I will be going. Does anyone else plan to be there?
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Shoreline Trolley Museum will be well represented. Look for us, alongside a trolley car end (8420).
Lou: I will be there on Sunday. I'll make it a point to stop by the Shoreline Desk.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone know how to get there by train?
as of 5:18pm no trains between Newrak Penn and NY Penn due to wire problems.
What happened this time? I was comming back from work and as soon as I sat down on a NJT train to NY Penn (I was in Newark Penn) the Train crew made an announcement that all trains to NY Penn were canclled and to take the PATH to NY. What happened this time!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
wire problems-- power loss. Also yesterday an Amtrak NE Direxct was stalled on track 4 just past MetroPark around 1-130pm
I also heard of catenary problems in Penn today. Supposedly, a wire came down on a train...
the latest update L60-90 minute delays. Cross honoring of tickets on NJT bu- Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast and Raritan Valley (Does not go past Meadowlands- MMC) all delayed (and of course Midtown INdirect)
(Catenary came down on a train).
Didn't we have a long catenary vs. third rail thread some time ago, with the techies finally concluding (I thought) that catenary is more reliable? Of does Amtrak/NJT just have bad catenary?
Yeah, Amtrak does, the stuff on the New Haven line is even worse I think.
It's cause it's 50+ years old. It's all fixed tension, save for the NY stretch of the New haven line, which was redone a while back to be constant tension. Guess how often that gives them trouble?
The new stretch is like that too. I bet once amtrak debugs it, it'll be amazingly reliable, compaired to the older stuff...
So which actually is better, third rail or caternary? Usually the subway is third rail and commuter rail is caternary, but the subways in Japan are all overhead, and the LIRR is third-rail. What are the advantages of each?
Third rail is easier to matain and can fit into smaller spaces such as tunnels. caternary allows faster travel and is safer because its overhead and you don't have to worry about someone getting fried.
Europe and Japan make better wire and maybe better designs 'cause they don't break as much. Overhead wire also looks scary. Thats the con.
A train with a pantagraph looks just plain weird.
Overall, catenary has the edge. It's capable of handling higher voltage (why, I'm not sure, perhaps one of the electrical experts out there can enlighten us), it doesn't have to have gaps at turnouts, and it permits faster operation. Third rail's only advantage is that it can fit in smaller spaces. When I lived in Barcelona thirty years ago some of the subway lines were overhead, some were third rail - the catenary lines were distinctly faster and quieter as well. By the time I left in 1973, Barcelona had four Metro lines and several underground electric rail services as well; none of the four Metro lines used compatible equipment, either due to size or current collection. The rail lines were operated by two different groups using a total of three different standards as well, but all were overhead catenary.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A true "catenary" system is usually associated with an AC high voltage power system. Third rail is usually associated with DC power, 3,000 volts or under. The voltage carrying capacity of third rail is limited by the amount of physical space required to insulate the rail, the rule of thumb for DC being 1" for every 100 volts.
A high voltage AC system is better with a relatively fewer number of trains travelling at high speed over long distances (AC is the obvious choice for long distance power transmission), such as the northeast corridor.
A lower voltage "DC" type system was more popular when you had a high
concentration of trains in a small area, like in the subway. There were of course, exceptions like the Laurel Line in PA.
True catenary should not be confused with "trolley" type systems, which are actually termed as "direct suspension".
01/29/2000
Catenary is considered the best, although can have problems when icing occurs. UNDER running third rail (New York Central etc)is better than OVER running (LIRR,NYCTA etc.)
Bill Newkirk
What is the difference between under running and over running third rail?
With Over-running third rail the pick up shoe slides on top of the running rail, maintaining contact by gravity. In the old days before the use of coverboards, there was alot of trouble with snow and ice when used outdoors.
Under-running third rail is used with a contact shoe that slides along the bottom surface of the rail. Contact is maintained by springs. This form of third rail was thought to be more resistant to snow and ice accumulations.
OOPS- just woke up. I the last post, I meant third rail, not running rail!
Now how about the two types of third rail-over and under running. Which one is better?
With the recent winter storms you'd thnk it would be a hassle de-icing overrunning third rails so underrunning would be better. How many underrunning third rail lines are there. I only know of the MFL and parts of MetroNorth.
AFAIK, the only use of Wilgis-Sprague third rail are the Metro-North (former New York Central) lines out of Grand Central, SEPTA's Market-Frankford line and the Docklands light rail line in England.
Lets not forget "overhead" third rail, which was originally used in the Steinway tunnels.
Hey, works for me - I've seen it used in hidden tunnels instead of catenary on a model RR, less problems that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of which, how did the in-street trolley connection work in Manhattan? Didn't THAT get screwed-up in the snow? Was there an electrocution risk?
It seems that all new light rail systems have catenary.
The existing cable conduit was fitted with positive and negative rails, and a pickup shoe made contact by means of a "plow" which extended through the slot between the rails. AFAIK, there was no danger of electrocution. Access hatches were located every few hundred feet or yards. I believe a cleaning device of some sort was used which would periodically clean out the conduits.
Washington, DC also used conduits on streetcar lines which ran close to the heart of the city. Pennsylvania Ave. featured conduit running; there were no overhead wires in front of the White House.
Right, in the conduit system, the positive and negative rails
underground were "floating"...they were not connected to ground.
This was mostly for minimizing failures though, not for safety.
The rails were a few feet under so you'd have to try really, really
hard to get zapped. Maybe if you dropped your wedding ring down
there and were trying to fish it out with coat hanger wire?
The problem of snow, ice and schmutz in general getting into the
slot was a big one. One of the cars in the Shore Line Trolley
Museum's collection, Third Avenue Railway #220, was used after
retirement from passenger service as a slot scraper.
I think only 3 cities in the world had conduit type systems: NYC, Washington and London. In the cases of NYC and Washington, I think they were actually converted from a mechanical cable system. The conduit was already there, drastically cutting down the installation costs which were 10X greater than direct suspension (trolley).
The system never really took off because of the huge expense on installation, and the problems of keeping the slot cleaned out. Snow, ice and standing water in the conduit (drainage) were real problems.
FYI, Paris also had conduit type trolleys
>the subways in Japan are all overhead
Not so. The first two lines opened in Tokyo were and still are 3rd rail operated.
The idea of through service between subways and suburban lines gave birth to overhead collected subway lines. The first municipal line (actual Asakusa line) is operated with traditional wired catenary, while most other lines use a reversed-T-shaped rail in place of catenary. This is to prevent any accident by cut wires and to lower maintenance cost. That also requires the use of special pantographs. So only trains fitted with those are used for the through service.
Most other major cities operate via 3rd rail, although recently built lines operate overhead.
For those interested in keeping track of the progress of the New Tech Train, here's a tidbit. The R142 test train made up of 5 cars, made what is belived to be it's first inaugural run under it's own power south of East 180th St last night, 1/27/00. At 11:30PM, the train passed through my backyard on the West Farms El, headed for destination unknown. Surprisingly, it was followed by a solo diesel unit marked 69. It is my sincerest hope that the time the train spends on the mainline will be a successful one. There's no need to curse at them just yet....
It looks like this far, only a 5 car train of Bombardier units have been in testing, but I have yet to see the Kawasaki Cars in action. Anyone seen them?
Let me close out by saying, "Let the R142 games begin"....
-Stef
why only 5 cars? do they have enough for ten cars? how many cars are delivered at a time?
Sure, sure. The other 5 Bombardier R142s are away in storage at E180th St Shop. All Kawasaki units are also in storage in the Shop with it's Bombardier Counterpart. Remember, this is only the test phase. 5 cars will be tested at a time. Eventually, we'll see the full 10 car train (either the Bombardier or Kawasaki set) on the road.
-Stef
Checked the FTA website. They now have subway ridership for the first six months of 1999 -- 890 million! Up eight percent from 1998.
Even if ridership was flat in the 3rd and 4th quarter, we're talking about nearly 1.8 billion here. The MTA facts and figures -- 1.3 billion is way out of date. Again, at my most optimistic I figured 1.3 billion is the most we would ever see. It's the figure from 1960, after widespread auto ownership but before the system collapsed.
The only long term ridership figures I've seen are from a footnote in Cudahy's book, with every five year figures. At 1.8 million, we'd be at the highest level since the immediate aftermath of WWII. Can this keep up?
What's the web site address?
(website for FTA data)
I go to the American Public Transit Association website www.apta.com. They link to all the data. They have a bunch of options, most of which have older annual data. I believe I scrolled down to "ridership" in a list of subjects to get the quarterly, but fish around and you'll find it.
Keep the fare cards rolling Discounted multiride fare cards are the best way to make transit more effective. Ridership goes up as does revenue and more people use the system more often.
The APTA site is a good location to look up facts. Bill Millar has done a nice job since taking over APTA a few years ago.
Joe
Subway ridership is soaring but the number of trains run has not increased. In fact, it is lower than in the 1960s, when ridership was far lower than today.
Moreover, taking a variety of trains as I do, they do not seem to be more crowded at rush hour. True, the Brighton, Lex and Queens Blvd lines are packed as a result of the Manhattan Bridge, lack of the Second Avenue Subway, and lack of the 63rd St connection, but most of the others are less crowded than in the 1980s.
Off peak ridership must have soared. I think its time to increase the number of off peak trains dramatically to cut the wait. All to need is more T/Os. If you run half-trains you don't even need more cars. And if you go OPTO on half-trains and convert some conductors to T/0, you don't even need more people.
Six minute wait or less from 6:30 a.m to 12 p.m. on all (or almost all) lines. Now THAT would be a service improvement.
In the IRT (i'll speak for the Lexington Avenue)off peak trains are practically back to back that you could couple them from end to end they are so close to each other. Number 6 is SCHEDULED to be 4 minute mid day mon-fri number 4 i believe operate 5-6 minutes and Number 5 8-10 mintues.. HOW/where could you put anymore trains off peak weekday? OPTO please don't even try it there'd be so much congestion.
Trainsets are available off-peak, unlike peak, and NYCT has been adding service outside of rush hours where needed.
David
Yes, remember, 12 years ago there was only rush hour service on the B line on CPW, as well as express service on the Fulton St. line, and there were 6 fewer stations. For the first time in decades, the city actually increased nightime service this year by extending the 6 from 125th to City Hall 24/7.
Hopefully, the city will actually grant Brighton line riders with weekend express service.
Overall, there are more trains in operation today.
I think that the unlimited Metrocards brought more people into the subways off-peak. Trains are much more crowded now after 8 PM than they were 5 years ago -- especially so during the 11PM to 1AM stretch.
Not that this makes up a significant percentage of the 1.8 billion, but I imagine that the weekend and other off-peak influence of the unlimited Metrocards is similar.
Chuck
One thing the unlimited ride does is encourage hop on hop off stops. Just today, I stopped off to buy a lesson book for by kids piano lesson on my way home from work. It was in one store that was right off the F train. The other option was a drive to Kings Plaza, and a special trip. So more New Yorkers may be doing the suburban liked trip thing, but on the train.
So long as the economy and budget surplus keep going up at the same time, yes.
Who knows, if they hit 2 billion in 2000, maybe building the Second Ave. subway will actually become a campaign issue in the 2001 mayoral election.
I see four things that could stop and even reverse the current strong growth in subway ridership. Below I've listed them, along with my guesstimates of their chances of occurring in the foreseeable future:
1) A major downturn in the national economy. No one's repealed the business cycle, so a downturn will inevitably occur, but it may be that structural changes in the economy will make future slumps less severe. Time will tell, I suppose.
2) Deteriorating economic conditions in NYC as compared to the rest of the country. After being a laggard for years, the city is now enjoying as strong an economy as most anywhere else, with job growth well in excess of the national average (although unemployment remains persistently high). Yet I fear this could change after the next election, if there's a limousine liberal mayor like Mark Green who boosts taxes to fund more social and health services.
3) A rise in telecommuting, such that fewer people need to commute to their workplaces. Self-proclaimed "futureologists" have been predicting this for years. But note that practically nothing's happened so far. I would largely discount this possibility.
4) A major increase in subway crime. In my view, this is by far the most likely of the four possibilities. Keep in mind that you wouldn't need huge statistical increases in the crime rate to create an atmosphere of danger that'll drive away riders in droves. Just a few well-publicized Brian Watkins- or Kendra Webdale-style murders might be enough. What's even worse is that a veritable handful of busy criminals could be enough.
I'd pick #2 and #3 as the most likely threats, although an increase in telecommunting could actually help mass transit.
How? Let's say people were permitted to start and finish my workday at home, or spend the entire workday at home, coming into Manhattan for meetings. Total traffic would fall, and rush hour traffic would fall quite a bit, but off peak traffic would rise. The TA would requrie fewer trainsets and staff to serve its customers.
Bad policy could turn around NYC relative to the country. Let's hope it doesn't happen.
A national recession would not cut NYC subway ridership much if NYC fares better than the U.S., as in 1981 to 1983. If the recession is driven by rising oil prices and an end to rising consumer debt to fund SUV purchases, it might even help.
[A national recession would not cut NYC subway ridership much if NYC fares better than the U.S., as in 1981 to 1983. If the recession is driven by rising oil prices and an end to rising consumer debt to fund SUV purchases, it might even help.]
Interesting observation. Based on what happened in the late 1980's, I had pretty much taken it as a given that a national recession would hit NYC disproportionately hard. But the city *is* in a better position than most places to weather higher fuel prices, thanks to transit.
By the way, about debt to fund SUV purchases, I for one would be tickled pink to see their prices drop. My wife and I were doing some online vehicle price research, as our minivan's getting pretty old and will need replacement soon. We looked a number of SUVs, and all I can say is that they're grossly overpriced. Almost $30,000 for a Cherokee or an Explorer? I think not! I'm all in favor of another minivan, as there you can get terrific bargains.
I'll offer the following observation: on Wednesday morning I took the back roads to work, driving my '96 Windstar, because I needed gas, and my usual gas station wasn't plowed out yet. I observed four vehicles stuck in the snow on the 12 mile trip. One had obviously been there since the night before, the other three were freshly stuck, their owners all calling on their cell phones for assistance or waiting impatiently for the tow truck to arrive. Three guesses as to what vehicle type they were, and the first two don't count :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
01/29/2000
I have a '92 Chevy S-10 Blazer, mini as compared to the big monster SUV's everybody is complaining about. Remember the blizzard of January '96? After the snow stopped, I went out for some coffee, the only ones on the road in Nassau County was the snow plows and SUV's with 4-wheel drive. Conventional rear wheel drive cars were no where to be found.
Also I brag to others that with the back seat down, I transported a GE frost free 14 cubic foot refrigerator with the rear tailgate and window closed ! And that's with the the spare tire inside !
Bill Newkirk
Well, to enumerate the four I saw stuck - a Nissan Pathfinder, a Mercedes M320 (or whatever number it is), a Yukon, and a Blazer like yours. The biggest problem is that most people don't know how to drive them - they think they're invincible when they're actually very skittish. My Windstar is front drive; my wife's rear drive Mustang convertible is in the garage and will remain there for the forseeable future. She knows better! On the other hand, if we still had the '85 Country Squire I suspect she'd be out on the road; it was a big, heavy car that handled well in all kinds of weather.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Well, to enumerate the four I saw stuck - a Nissan Pathfinder, a Mercedes M320 (or whatever number it is), a Yukon, and a Blazer like yours. The biggest problem is that most people don't know how to drive them - they think they're invincible when they're actually very skittish.]
At least they only got stuck. Many new SUV owners don't realize that while 4-wheel drive makes it easier to get through snow, it does absolutely nothing for one's stopping ability on icy or otherwise slippery pavement.
Right! I could tell you stories about that too - summarizing, back before my daughter had her own car I delivered her back to college in Staunton, Virginia after Thanksgiving break in 1997. I travel 75 miles north on I-81 to the I-66 connection when returning to New Jersey. On that Sunday weather conditions were slick; it had snowed the night before and there was some ice on the road. I observed 13 accident scenes (11 southbound, 2 northbound) in that 75-mile stretch, all rear-enders; in eleven of those 13 accidents the rear (at-fault) vehicle was an SUV. The other two were a U-Haul truck and a Lexus, IIRC. And I just lumbered along in my Windstar, keeping a safe distance from everyone else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's the key right there: just take it easy. I may have 4-wheel drive, and granted it increases engine braking when engaged, but it still doesn't help you stop. I do an impression of an R-68 when there's snowpack on the road.
They're issuing new license plates in Colorado starting this year; eventually everyone will have them. They're essentially an inverse of our present plates and feature white mountains with a green backdrop and green characters - three numeric and three alpha. Those of us with personalized plates will be allowed to keep our combinations on the new plates. You can bet my new plates will also say 8AVEXP.
[They're issuing new license plates in Colorado starting this year; eventually everyone will have them. They're essentially an
inverse of our present plates and feature white mountains with a green backdrop and green characters - three numeric and three alpha. Those of us with personalized plates will be allowed to keep our combinations on the new plates. You can bet my new plates will also say 8AVEXP.]
Do people ever get the meaning of your plates?
Why do SUVs get stuck in the snow?
Because, having spent $30,000 to buy them, and gotten 12 miles per gallon, all because a commercial said you'd be invincible in bad whether, the once every two or three years when there is a real snowstorm you just HAVE TO drive. Otherwise, you'd feel like you were wasting your money. So you drive down to the strip to get your drycleaning in a blizzard as if it was a clear spring day.
Since I have a Saturn Wagon, if the weather is bad, I just don't drive. We rarely HAVE TO go somewhere that we can't get to on foot or by subway. When we had that blizzard in 1996, our car stayed buried until most of it melted. It didn't move for nearly a month.
01/29/2000
Well folks it not the vehicle you drive, but how you drive it. My S-10 has 96K on the clock and has never seen the inside of a body shop and driving it I have never seen the inside of a hospital or funeral parlor! When the weather's bad, common sense should take over and keep your distance all around! Slow down and allow time for stopping in time. The four wheel drive feature when turned on just gets me out of deep snow, not makes ME invincable.
BTW - Today when I was shooting the Oyster Bay Branch, I pulled into the area past the parking lot in Sea Cliff to clear the platform and get a good shot of a departing northbound. After I got the shot,I flipped into 4WD, turned around and left the area. If that was a conventional rear wheel drive car, I would be calling a tow truck, the snow was deep there.
ALSO - I wasn't driving in the '96 blizzard with the refrigerator in the back of the vehicle! And when I come to the Big Apple,I always PARK and Ride (the LIRR).
Bill Newkirk
I don't know Bill, during the same blizzard I had no problems with my '87 Nissan Sentra. The manual transmission definitely helped though.
01/29/2000
Jeff,
I don't know either Jeff, I didn't see any rear wheel drive vehicles on the road, that's not to say some were out somewhere making history.
Bill Newkirk
After the derailment happened the ny transit promptely overbilled the feds for 63 million dollars. I tried reporting this to the mta ig but they were to busy looking at comic books to do anything. the mta also entered perjury into robert rays trial that there was no broken rail. i was there and there was a broken rail pointed out to me by the ntsb. i would be glad to discuss this further by email avairy@hotmail.com
The broken rail was most likely caused by the derailing train.
Allegations like this one were posted here about a month back (or was it two?). When it was suggested that the poster contact the Inspector General, or (if he failed to get the desired response from the IG) the press, he went away.
David
i did not go away. i was busy I still stand by what i said. new york transit management is little more than a mafia organistion. i am in position of 3 bids (three) that the second ave subway is less than 1 billion dollars (one) yet new york transit wants 13 billion
Where is David Union Square and who or what is David Union?
Position? Do you mean posession? If so, where did you get the bids? And what year are they from? Another question: What is or where is David Union Square?
Again: If you have evidence, and the MTA IG won't hear it, go to the media. They love to pounce on stuff like this. If you don't have evidence, then don't waste our time by posting garbage here.
David
i would write to your email directly but you dont have an email listed. the media is getting paid off since someone gets the money. To give just one example a major newspaper i forget if it was the Post or the News needed lots of land for a new newspaper plant. Transit being one of the major landowners in the city thereupon donated walnut bus depot to the newsppaer so they would have land to build on. Dont you think that there was a hushup deal made? There are other examples of hushups. Do you really think that 20 years are required to fix the manhattan bridge? Why doesnt any newspaper complain? Several years ago conductor mike steinbach discocered a train with indication when the doors were open He sent the car to be repaired several times and it never got fixed he then notified dave gunn and the car got fixed with mileage between breakdowns shhootin up as a result. all except for one month when cheif mechanical officer charles monheim put out orders cancelling all subway inspections you should have contacts in transit ask them about conducter steinbbach in b division Yet the media never wrote anything about him and the fact transit was putting unsafe trains in service knowingly and willfully check out the records for car 3534
With respect to Walnut, it was the Post that wanted the land (and, I believe, subsequently decided the land wasn't suitable for the plant anyway).
With respect to the rest of what Mr. Johnson said, I've seen things on the Web about the Steinbach case but I'm not familiar with it. As to what was said about the media, nobody here is in a position to do anything about the things Mr. Johnson alleged, so why does he need to spout off about them?
David
Steinbach was a conductor in b division who was a transit genious. Among other things he was responsible for the fact that trains dont break down any more. Amazing what fixing trains will do to mean distance between breakdowns. He was shot in the line of duty 1994 and filed for workers compensation After 4 years of transit fighting his claim by not bringing any documentation he won his worker compensation case. Transit then appealed on the ground that his commendations were really violations and had the judge read his commendations would of dismissed his case. No word was mentioned on why transit needed 4 years to find documents in their possession or what the relevence to violations was in a medical case but that was transits appeal The judges agreed Steinbach was clearly a discipline case for getting commendations proving prior medical problems. By a coincidence the very day that those corrupt judges fixed the decision a bus driver with a history of medical problems killed a n y times reporter.
As to why i wright about things that i cant do anything about isnt this just as relevent as i saw a nice choo choo train that was a different model than usually runs on this line?
Go down to workers comp at 180 livingston (right by transit headquarters) ask to see the file on steinbach as if you were steinbach You will see all his commendations in transits appeal signed by the various transit presidents and paul overseir (former cheif transportation officer) After you have confirmed he received numerous commendations call any congressman, reporter, inspector generol that you want You will be wasting your time however you will confirm to yourself that transit controls the media and government
A. Purporting to be someone in order to see that person's file has got to be some kind of fraud...maybe one of the attorneys who reads this board can confirm this.
B. The few things I've seen on labor vs. NYCT on the Internet have been by unions or disgruntled employees. I'd like to hear NYCT's side of things before making a decision.
C. If NYCT controls the media and the government, then how come the media keeps listening to everything the Straphangers Campaign says and ignoring any good news NYCT may want to report, and how come the federal, state, and city governments attempt to cut NYCT's operating funding (and sometimes capital as well) every year? (Note: they don't always get away with it, but they always try.)
Bear this in mind: I'm no apologist for NYCT, but I can't agree with one side or the other without hearing all of the facts. I wasn't there.
David
in order to see workers compensation files true you have to be the person. If that would be criminial to have someone else pretend to be someone else i dont know. however workers compensation is not a legal court. In any event to see supreme court documents you just have to go down and look. The court is located at 360 adams street near transit headquarters go to the records room and look up in the ledger for steinbach dated april 6 1992 Then take the index number and ask to see the file. in the file you will see numerous documents including a letter from fromer cheif mechanical officer charles monheim cancelling safety inspections Afterwords he was PROMTED to vice president busses To see these court documents you do not need to impersonate anyone you just have to go there and spend some time. In addition to documents from Mr Monheim you will see a greivence that management is falsifiying medical informatiuon to fire employees This grievence was never heard.
You want to see transits side? Very fair of you. Since this was a lawsuit transit also included their side full of perjury of course The judge who handled the case was a former transit lawyer
As far as why various governments attempt to cut mta spending you used the right word. ATTEMPT. They never seem to succeed as a matter of fact we have now a 17 billion dollar capitol program for the next 5 years a record. As far as why the media prints from the straphangers organisation, the head of the organisation is Public Interest Research Group which is run by a very well connected lawyer who is a theif second only to the mta. (I forget his name) As a result the media will print anything he says since the media will always print what political elite say. However whenever they do print what they say they also print transits rebuttal. They do not however do the reverse always. Check it out the next time you see an article from them. Also when they do put out an article about this train being on time or being dirty check it out on your own. They are a very political organisation with press releasses keyed to their agenda.
Dave first of all how do i know that maybe just maybe someone here doesnt like me calling them incompetant and will actually do something. This is after all a transit web site.
Just how far back do I have to go with car #3534 to find what you are eluding too? What am I looking for?
Car #1440 (the third car) derailed with such force that one of the running rails was broken as the forward truck went over it. This car went sideways and into the girders, nearly cutting it in two. Remember, this train was travelling at an estimated speed of 45MPH.
wayne
Who are you that the NTSB would feel obliged to point anything out to you? I was there (at 14th ST. almost immediately after the incident and can prove it via photos and other documents. You have yet to prove anything you have said. PUT UP OR SHUT UP. If you do not want to post it publicly, E-mail me privately. Until you document anything you say, you are just a crack-pot.....
"A major increase in subway crime. In my view, this is by far the most likely of the four possibilities. Keep in mind that you wouldn't need huge statistical increases in the crime rate to create an atmosphere of danger that'll drive away riders in droves. Just a few well-publicized Brian Watkins- or Kendra Webdale-style murders might be enough. What's even worse is that a veritable handful of busy criminals could be enough."
Here in Chicago, there were four highly-publicized attacks on the L system within a 21-day period, and the media jumped on it like fleas on a hound, with the typical approach being sending a minicam out to a random L or subway station and asking passengers waiting for trains if they feel safe "in the light of all the recent attacks." Needless to say, the two or three clips that made the newscasts were all of people who were very scared and concerned. If you paid only cursory attention to the news and didn't pick up the details, you would think that a major crime wave was washing over the CTA system. The media seems very adept at giving a false impression without lying, by either hiding "contrary" facts in the depths of the article or by outright omitting them.
Even the transit union tried to make hay while the sun shone, at the expense of public confidence: the union president was interviewed for all the local newscasts urging the CTA to re-employ the conductors "for the safety of the riding public". Oh, that's rich: the transit union attempting to create a perception that the L system is unsafe to ride. Someone applying that rare trait called "logic" would think that would be a BAD thing, since ridership affects the number of transit workers needed. But apparently the union would choose conductors on an empty train system (the passengers having been scared away) over full trains without conductors. Let's all sing the union song (tune of "Away In A Manger"): "Oh, dog in a manger, no conductors aboard..." (^:
The media at least stated obliquely what the union refrained from mentioning in it's anti-OPTO scare talk -- all the attacks were in stations, not on trains. The assaults included two rapes (allegedly by the same man, who has been arrested) when CTA station attendants were present (one rape was of the attendant herself) and a deadly knifing where police arrested the murderer right there at the station. However, the fourth attack was a wacko punching someone -- a single punch -- at a busy Loop station during morning rush hour. Though a punch doesn't possibly rise to the same level as rape or murder, it was included in the "body count" because a higher number of crimes makes for a more compelling story.
Quantification, and "control group" comparisons, and not the media's style. Once the number of something juicy rises to two, tangentelly related incidents are reported as part of an epidemic. Remember the school shootings? For two months after Columbine, every fistfight anywhere in the U.S. was included in the tabulation of hysteria.
Mitchell Moss, a pro-urban prof at the NYU urban center, has decided to fight fire with fire. He's written a series of Op-Ed pieces which hold that the alienating living environment of the suburbs produces serial killers and snipers. He's also written on road rage shootings. Ol' Mitchell probably figures that if the Media is going to make people afraid to live in the city and ride the trains, it might as well make them afraid to live in the suburbs and drive too.
I have to follow up on my own posting to give the devil his due. This morning's (Feb. 1) Sun-Times included an editorial that was pro-CTA on the security issue. It put the incidents in perspective, starting off by saying that scaring the public away from the L could reverse the hard-won gains in ridership and that restoring conductors is not a solution. The editorial is on the Sun-Times web page at http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/edits01.html
The newspapers have the space (up to a page or more for an article if its important enough) and the time (they only come out once, or at most twice, daily) to put things into some resemblance of perspective. They don't always do it, of course, but at least they CAN. Television news inherently doesn't have the time (a half-hour or hour newscast has no room for subtlety) or the motivation (as a visual medium, television has to use powerful images, which tend to be emotional images that make one feel rather than think) to present a balanced view.
The FTA says ridership is going up by about 7 to 8% on qtr/qtr BUT:
The MTA on its web site still says annual ridership is 1.1bn.
Has anybody tested out the FTA figures and asked why ridership is going up so fast? Has the method of measurement changed?
I would presume the MTA does the word and the FTA merely puts it into their site, but this means that New York has the fastest growing transit ridership in the US - now why?
You have some good questions here about whether measurement methods have changed. But we do know that ridership is soaring. The MTA has had the practice of announcing "average weekday ridership", which has soared. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to compare that with, whereas (from Under the Sidewalks) I have ridership for some years going way back. NYMTC publishes subway ridership, but its data is ususally years behind.
The FTA mentions "unlinked trips." If someone uses Metrocard for a bus to subway transfer, does that count as two trips? As one subway trip? As one bus trip? As one-half subway and one-half bus trip? One thing for sure, before one-city one-fare that counted as two trips, so if they changed it that would tend to depress ridership.
I think "unliked trips" refers to bus transfers, since most transit in the U.S. is bus-based.
One think to consider. The administration in Albany is AGAINST major subway improvements and IN FAVOR of spending money elsewhere in the state, and cutting taxes. The RPA and others justify commuter rail improvments on quality of life grounds, but not subway improvements (since subway riders don't deserve quality). They base their arguments on fanciful ridership projections, which may not have turned out to be so fanciful.
Soaring ridership, beyond a certain point, is contrary to what George Pataki wants to see. So the bureaucrats do what bureaucrats do -- they tell the truth and nothing but the truth, but not the whole truth.
Will the R-142,s be more quiet than the redbirds with curve noise? The redbirds can be noisy on curves like the one between 149th street and 138th street.Sometimes the noise can be deafening, especially if the train has worn out wheels.
I've been wondering the same thing. There does seem to be a difference between trains in how badly they screech around that curve. Or is it just due to how fast they take the curve?
Is there any difference between the Redbirds, the R-62s, and the R-142s in terms of the placement of the trucks relative to the carbodies? If the trucks were placed with their centers 1/4 car length from each end of the car, the ability to take sharp curves would be maximized, since the distance between adjacent trucks would never exceed 1/2 car length. Any other placement and it will exceed that. Is this how they are in fact placed? What other factors affect the ability of a train to handle curves without excessive noise? And is the noise correlated with harmful stress on the cars?
worn out wheels has no relation to the amount of noise generated on curves. flat wheels with the clomp clomp clomp noise as the flat spot hits the rail is annoying as is spotted wheels with quarter sized flat spots. Most curves and switches have speeds posted for the speed recommended to operated at SAFELY usually also does the trick at elinating MOST not all the clatter and screech. if the newer cars that are arriving have articulating wheels sets in the trucks it should eliminate plenty of noise at switches and curves also resulting is less wheel and rail wear not to mention saving our hearing...
[if the newer cars that are arriving have articulating wheels sets in the trucks it should eliminate plenty of noise at switches and curves also resulting is less wheel and rail wear not to mention saving our hearing...]
So... do they in fact have such articulating wheel sets?
Yeah I know what you're talking about. The 5 train can be crazy making the turn between 149th Street Grand Concourse and 138th Street. The first time I rode that part of the line, I was wondering whether the curve was ever going to end.
You have a full 135-degree curve there, going southbound from Mott Avenue. However, its radius is significantly wider than that of the northbound track, whose 125-degree jughandle curve is much tighter than that going southbound. Southbound, too, has a grade to it as crosses (over/or under) the #2 tracks. Northbound, the tracks fly under the #4 tracks but are just about level by the time they enter the jughandle proper. Either way, there is significant wheel noise generated on both curves. Northbound appears to have more due to the reduced turning radius.
There are a couple of very tight turns on the #6 line as well, especially either side of Hunts Point Avenue, and between Cypress and East 143rd Street.
Wayne
I hope they raise a racket to wake the dead! The more wheel noise, the more I like it. Nothing disappoints me more than standing on South Ferry platform and watching the little sprayers go off, as the #1 train slips ghost-like into the station.
#8711-8710 are two particularly noisy Redbirds when I saw them grinding their way into Mott Avenue last year. Ditto for #8744-8745, #8728-8729, #8718-8719 and #8696-8697, all cars from the same consist.
These 'Birds really know how to sing!
Wayne
I say the two handed controllers like on the R-62's are the best way to operate a subway car. What's this with the R-142's? A slide controller with computers?
CAN U SAY UNESCESSARY?????
CAN YOU SAY THATS GHETTO???
CAN U SAY THAT'S WACK!!!!!!
What kind of words are GHETTO and WACK (it's spelled whack BTW)? We don't need your urban slang garbage. Have you ever controlled a subway car? So what do you know about controlling one? Do you think that an automatic transmission in a car is useless? you use one foot for that.
dont install a computer !!! use the old fashoned controls LIKE THE REDBIRDS !!!
Old fashioned controls are just that, old fashioned, antiquated and outdated.
Do you have a problem with tradition and things that are old? Stuff today is mostly cheep crap. Civil Engineering reached perfection in the 30's and with a few exceptions, cars reached perfection in 1974. I mean computers are great for a lot of things, but you at least need analogue backups. After the neuclear war and the electro-magnetic pulse you'll see what I mean, and When a whole train is brough to a halt because a little chip burned out you'll be wishing for one of those old trains that could be fixed with a paperclip, screwdriver and a piece of gum.
/*Do you have a problem with tradition and things that are old?*/
I don't. But only if it works well.
/* Stuff today is mostly cheep crap.*/
Having just replaced a Sony CD player that last oh, 6 years, I can agree. Or maybe it just got sick of Alice in Chains? On the other hand, my 50's vintage Fisher (when Fisher was GOOD) tube amp is still cranking along, though I did spend a few $$$ on replacement of a few power supply parts and the output tubes (7189A, man those little things cost a LOT)
/*Civil Engineering reached perfection in the 30's */
Perhaps. They sure don't build nice looking buildings anymore!
But stuff like the Big Waste ^h^h^h^h^h Dig, are VERY complicated projects that couldn't be done without computers.
/*and with a few exceptions, cars reached perfection in 1974.*/
Automobiles? No way. Today's cars last longer, require less mantainance, go farther on a gallon of gas, handle better, are safer, cleaner, and in general more reliable than those from even 10 years ago.
/*After the neuclear war and the electro-magnetic pulse you'll see what I mean, and When a whole train is brough to a halt because a little chip burned out you'll be wishing for one of those old trains that could be fixed with a paperclip, screwdriver and a piece of gum.
*/
*sigh* There is more such thing as "after a nuclear war". In fact, the ones who get hit directly are the lucky ones. They die a quick, fairly painless death...
If/When there's a nuke war, I'm gonna hop the first train into NY so I get blown up first. I'm not kidding either.
How good today's R/T equipment is debateable, but you can't compare say an MP-54 to an M-1. The M-1's faster, quieter, lighter, and a heck of a lot more comfy. Not to mention it has 'air conditioning" and can max out at around 120.
The one hand versus two argument has been around for a long time. Boston had one hand equipment since 1952 on the subway. You can argue for both sides but slider controls were not popular either on the LRVs in the mid 70s or the 01800 Red line cars in the 90s.
The cineston and its derivatives are used in Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia. and are popular with operators.
It is not the type of control that is important, but rather the feel and responsiveness.
So, why did MBTA opt for slide controls on the Type 8's? The 7's came with pedals after the operating corps were asked - to a man they hated the LRV's.
Go Fig?
Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it!
Well, old stuff couldn't be fixed with a paperclip and a piece of gum. And there were a lot of old things that could break with one item too.
And after the world is destroyed by nuclear war, there'll be a lot worse things to worry about.
Yeah, I can say all those words. I can even spell them. The one handed slide controller is much easier to use and much more comfortable for long runs like the deuce.
I will ignore the obvious ignorance of the second part of your posting and address the first. Despite the stupidity of the ghetto slang, the question is valid.
First I've never been a train operator but have had considerable experience with both types (three types if you include the slide controller of the pre-overhaul R-46). In all phases of operation (except one), I perfer the single handle controller ala R-46 over any other type of train control. When set right, it's ergonomically easiest on the operator and train control seems to be more precise (although that may just be my preference). The only draw-back to the single handle controller is during cutting (uncoupling) since buffing the couplers takes a little practice.
I thought about the sliding "T" handle type, and I'm wondering... Does such a design cause wrist problems, from always holding it out of the emergency position (I mean the deadman here)?
Another thing - I've noticed European rail equipment tends to have a steering wheel type controller - anyone know why?
Another fun design - the MP-54 (both the LIRR and PRR versions), which have to be held in either foward off or reverse off whenever the controller is activated. Regardless of any brake application...
The single handle of the M-1s seems to be a good design (anyone have any experience on these?), but that box under it for the switches seems to get in the way (can anyone actually fit their feet/legs around that thing?)
I never tried the M-1 controller, myself but it's very similar to the R-46s. The R-46 controller handle takes 9-11 Lbs of force to engage the deadman's feature and 2 Lbs. to maintain it. On long lines, that can be fatigueing. The old R-46 controller handle took very little force to rotate it and hold it in place. It was actually a more comfortable unit to operate. However, it did REQUIRE the operator to operate while seated. I believe that the same is true for the current R-44 or R-46 cars but I do see operators operate standing up. As for the MP-54s, I'll have to look at my old LIRR Engineer's manual.
/* As for the MP-54s, I'll have to look at my old
LIRR Engineer's manual. */
Does it have the schematics for the cars in there like the PRR one's did?
As a matter of fact it has several diagrams for the different cars it covers. I'm not even sure about the MP54s. I believe it was printed in 1923. I know it covers the MP-41s.
When they were doing the R-46 overhaul I pleaded with
the manager of the program not to try and wedge that Cineston
control handle into a cab that wasn't designed for it. The R-44s
turned out even worse.
Funny that you should mention that. There was even more controversy about the seat to be used in the R-44 cab because of the tight space. An Aussie Engineer from one of the consulting firms suggested a combination of a backrest and a knee-pad. Operators would have operated in the kneeling position if you can believe that. First time they tried it with a 300# + motorman - the idea was scrapped.
Re-inventing the wheel is never an easy task. Since the R-44 and R-46 were redesigned so thoroughly, did anyone ever consider enlarging the cab in the process to gain space? Unlike some other cabs which incorporate electrical equipment into the back wall, these seem to be simple partitions which could have been moved slightly in a major overhaul. This would have been facilitated by the A-B-B-A arrangement of the cars where only half the cars had cabs to begin with.
Hi Folks, This evening from my window I happened to notice a flushing bound #7 express train pass by (I live 2 blocks from the El) The train looked slightly "different" The lights inside the cars appeared to be ALOT DIMMER (the windows were slightly different to) then the lights on the R36s (this train was a redbird) R36 cars have very bright lights I hope this dosent mean the WF R36 cars are in trouble. Are they? Remember back in 1990-1994 when the Main Line R33s came to the 7 line for a spell?
Please try to get the serial numbers of these cars. Jot them down & post them.
Um...serial numbers? Wow! I think you mean Unit Numbers.
Why is it that when I try to change my name, it never registers the first time. The name change for the first post is successful, but for in order to keep it, I have to remember to retype it the next time. I don't need this hassle, from now on I'm going to write a blank message to change my name, unless I find a topic. I have posted this to BusTalk.
Why don't you just use your real name?
I did that at one time, but, some eeeeeeeeedeeeeeeeyot keeps impostering me. So now I have this.
Sherman Cheung
To check for impostors, simply right-click on their message and look for something like this:
<!-- REMOTE_HOST: ; REMOTE_ADDR: 216.80.13.118-->
Compare it to other postings made by somebody using the same handle. Any difference will indicate that was posting was made by somebody using a different ISP. (Of course, it would also be different if somebody is makes postings to SubTalk from a networked computer at the office and also from their own computer at home.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
With the exception of the time I was blocked and had to post from ernie.stuy.edu, all of my posts were made from a level3.net domain.
Blocking is a futile effort to keep someone out. With all the ISP's offering the first thirty days free, you can sign up with a new ISP and get back on, then cancel on the 29th day and go with another. Also, now there are free Internet connections if you're willing to put up with the ads. One can play musical ISP's and evade blocks practically indefinately.
And use a forwarding service to keep e-mail constant
Or use CJB.NET to keep changing your e-mail ID (not domain) as suits your fancy (see above).
To check for impostors, simply right-click on their message and look for something like this:
Ooops...
In my haste to post, I forgot to mention selecting "View Source" after right-clicking on the message.
-- David
Right. I routinely post from two different places - my computer at home and, when I'm on the road, from my laptop. So two different addresses will show up for me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
After doing the name change, close your browser, then reopen it. That will hold it.
I'm assuming you are using Internet Explorer - I've heard stories about this problem from IE users, as a Netscape user I've never had a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The short answer: I don't know.
I didn't write the software.
After your post, are you using "back" to return to the index or are you clicking on the "return to index" link? I think the latter method would retain your name and display it correctly on the index.
Personally, I think the annoying part is that so many people feel the need to post under multiple handles. For me, it indicates an unwillingness to stand behind what one posts.
-Dave
Is 207St(A) station is arranged that the Far Rockaway trains are on one side and the Lefferts Blvd trains are on the other???? Kind of like TS on the 7 with the express and local.
3TM
207th at the end of the "A" in Manhattan is only two tracks with an Island platform. Four tracks don't begin untli 168th, which is where the C ends.
Mr t__:^)
I know that but do they have a special configuration that the Far Rockaway trains are on one side and the Lefferts Blvd trains are on another? At TS, the 7 express are on one side and the local is on another.......
3TM
I change my handle a little. I am going from 2119 to 1921. The reasons:
I have ot seen 2119 in a while.......
I have seen 1921. It is an end car with a full width cab.
Just a minor change.........
3TM-7Av/Bway Express-Eastern Pkwy/Livonia Av Lcl
I changed my handle a little. I am going from 2119 to
1921. The reasons:
I have ot seen 2119 in a while.......
I have seen 1921. It is an end car with a full width cab.
Just a minor change.........
3TM-7Av/Bway Express-Eastern Pkwy/Livonia Av Lcl
While it may be interesting to participate in a debate on Rudy-versus-Hillary, read a scholarly treatise on housing costs, or discuss the merits of the census, This Group Is Not The Place For That.
Is it too much to ask that we stick to rail transit?
Not to mention (Please!) food and sports.
David
how about my asinine posts? I have a need to be attacked too......
heypaul, the way the posts are going these days your asinine posts would be most welcome since they'd actually be CLOSER to on-topic discussion than most of what's been going on here lately ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Doug---- but you're prejudiced--- you have
a sense of humor.
Seriously though, I need to hear some people's
contempt for my presence here. It will give me
added motivation to continue my work here.
In my short time here I feel that you are one of the bright spots, Thanks!
Peace,
Andee
Andee---- I normally do not respond to kind words publicly. However, in the short time that you have been here, for you to consider me one of the bright spots here, deserves praise from me. In my opinion, you obviously have excellent judgment. Thank you for your kind words. Be prepared to get flamed by others for them.....
>>>>> Be prepared to get flamed by others for them.....<<<<<<
That's their problem
Peace,
Andee
heypaul: What we need is more of that. What we don't need is a lot of hard feelings towards one another. If you notice Brighton Beach Bob and I trade barbs all the time, but all in good fun. Some of what I've read is not in good fun, so it is nice when someone gives a kuddo or two for a job well done or an idea well said. We can certainly disagree on some points but we can try and be civil about it. Gentlemen, we're in this together, and while we can knock politicians and athletes, we should not be bringing down our colleagues on the website. This is the second time I've written such a blurb and I hope this is the last time I have to do it. I got into a set-to with BX55 some time back, or was drawn into it, and it wasn't one of my finest hours.
Well Fred--- I hope this thread will go down as one of our better hours. I wasn't sure whether Bob was serious last night, and was a bit rattled by it. I really do not want to go to war with someone who was fortunate enough to go to James Madison when I walked those hallowed halls, unless he was the guy who pushed me down that flight of stairs,causing me irreversible brain damage and at the same time starting me out as a rail fan. From that day to now, I hear R9 compressor sounds in my head. Actually it is quite pleasant. I think I will go listen to them for a while.....
Now if you had taken something to do with the Sea Beach, that would have been great since I'm looking the world over for Sea Beach fans. We have sea beach express, N Train, and one other I can't think about. But you Brighton Beach fans, you're insufferable. I have to admit that my favorite station, aside from Stillwell, was Prospect Park Station on the Brighton Line where we used to get off on our way to Ebbets Field. The only reason it rates number 2 instead of one is that the Sea Beach is my favorite, therefore my favorite station has to be onthe Sea Beach line. And you think you're a nut; brother you have absolutely nothing over me in that regard. Believe it.
How about if we agree that DeKalb Ave, before the Chrystie Street Connection was one of the neatest spots on the BMT. What with the locals and expresses crossing and arcing at the North End of the Manhattan bound side. The south end of the Brooklyn bound side with its wide gap between front car and platform. The mysterious bypass tracks. The guys announcing the arrival of a Brighton Express on Track 4 over the PA system. That was a station where it all came together.
Big article in the Times today about the Rebuilding DeKlab Ave Station
My memory must be playing a few tricks on me but I believe the Sea Beach used to stop at either Myrtle Avenue or DeKalb in the early and mid 50's. I seem to remember DeKalb as a stop where many different trains came together. If memory serves me right, could't you see daylight from that station out towards the Manhattan Bridge. Your message has brought back a flood of memories, and I hope some of them accurate.
The Sea Beach used to skip DeKalb and Myrtle in the 50s. I remember when the Brighton Exp and West End Came into DeKalb toward Manhatten at the same time, we used to run over to the West End, because it left 1st. I also remember if the Brighton and Sea Beach came thru at the same time, the Sea Beach always waited for the Brighton . Order of trains BNrighton, Sea Beach, West End. Does anyone remember the disks on the platforms Brooklyn Bound on the Express Track that had the name of each line. You used to line up there, for that is where the doors would open.
Ah Fred------ How can you call yourself Sea Beach Fred, if you don't have a solid memory of DeKalb Ave. If I remember your family was from Queens, and you were only a part-time visitor to our fair borough of Brooklyn. As far as seeing daylight, it would probably have been from Myrtle, because that is positioned pretty close to the Bridge portal.
Maybe we should rename you Gerritsen Beach Fred. I maintain that there is a 3 track subway line running from one end of Gerritsen Avenue to the other. The plans in 1928 were to have it connect with the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx, by travelling through the electric lines. This is all hush hush, so don't tell too many people, especially Doug aka BATman.
Each night, I sneak out and go to Utica Avenue, where I dig a two level subway there. I am helped by the 4,753 workthings I cloned. Each night, the machines in my sub-sub-basement clone 15 new ones with power from the Broadcast Power Receiver on my el-el-roof.
The lower level is to hide the NIMBYs when we lure some unsuspecting TA officials down to the upper level so they can realize that they have a perfectly usable subway tunnel. And then when service gets underway, the NIMBYs will be freed and the workthings will be deported to Oompa Loompa Land. Or maybe the NIMBYs instead.
Where the he** did this guy come from????
Maybe he's an old apparatchek from the Commie Party who was deported when Hungary overthrew the Bolshies and he somehow sneaked into this country. That statement by him was certainly off the wall. This guy might be nuttier than I am.
Nobody is as nutty as you are except maybe ???
NO! I'm the guy who always changes my name.
The Deli Best
The Bombay Best
The Bombay Pest
The Budapest
The Prague
Hey, we can all make up silly little stories, who are you to judge?
NOBODY is nuttier than I!
What do you call a abortion in Prague. Cancelling a Czech
I won't tell Doug a word about it because I'm already embarrassed that I can't fully remember. It come to me that in 1947 when I first rode the Sea Beach, we once missed it because we got there too late, and I saw it leaving a tunnel from the end of the platform I was standing on. I believe that in the late 40's the Sea Beach did stop at times at Myrtle Avenue. As far as Queens was concerned, true, I live there longer than I lived in Brooklyn, but since I spent almost as much time there as Queens, and since my family on both sides were from Brooklyn, a few of my friends actually called Brooklyn Perry (then my nickname).
AND NO ONE WAS MORE OF A BROOKLYN DODGER FAN THAN I WAS.
Or a Duke Snider fan, right?
During the 1960's BC three services bypassed Dekalb Avnue during the rush hours; #3 or T Bway-West Exp,#4 or N Bway-Sea Beach Exp and #2 or M Nassau-4 Av Exp (am rush only). This was a cutback from the 50's when a number of lines skipped Dekalb on a near full time basis.
The trains which stopped at Dekalb in the rush were the #1 or Q Bway-Brighton Exp,#1 or QT Bway-Brighton Lcl,#2 or RR Bway-4 Avenue lcl,#2 or M/S Nassau-4 Av Lcl (pm rush only), #3 or TT Nassau-West End Exp.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember until I moved from Brooklyn Dec 1958 that the Sea Beach Never stopped at DeKalb and Myrtle Ave when it was open. Everyone else did except the Sunny Sunday Franklin-Chambers Exp when they ran
Is the article about an anniversary of the rebuilding of DeKalb, or are they about to take another stab at it?
The DeKalb Avenue station is about to be rebuilt. This time it appears to be a full rehabilitation, rather than the partial job that was done in the early 1980s. The project includes the installation of three elevators (one from street to mezzanine, and one to each of the two platforms) for ADA accessibility. The two escalators at the Willoughby Street end (one from each platform) are being replaced now, ahead of the rehabilitation project.
David
Most times the "off topic" stuff comes from threads
that were originlly on topic. It's like watching an
episode of "Law & Order. The first 15 minutes of
the show might have absolutley nothing in common
with the last 15 minutes.
whoops. I transposed my name and e-mail addy.
As long as it's kept civil, (no slander,libel or other actionable or obscene comments)the political commentary on this board has such diversity that I for one feel educated and entertained. Some of the commentary on economics and engineering, to name a couple topics, is most scholarly. and what the heck, we are all railfans but that's not all we are, THANK G-D! So if a discussion turns away from what YOU are interested in, just click on another post, as for me, I'm learning a lot and enjoying these posts that show that we aren't just a bunch of one-dimensional trainheads.
YES! I wholeheartedly agree, and to be more conducive to this, I suggest people (myself included) remember to change thread names making it easier for people to know which ones to avoid if they don't like it. Especially if another branch of the thread is still on-topic. Besides, if these off-topic things come back on OVER and OVER, are they really that off-topic if they're always being brought up?
Such ingratitude!
Most OT threads at least deal with issues of interest to the audience--e.g.., NYC/NYS politics, local cultural issues, and they evolve from legitimate threads.
Just consider the OT threads we DON'T start out of concern for the integrity of the site.
I've been dying to start a thread about the effect of food deprivation on the verbal SAT scores of North American Ground Weasals.
[Most OT threads at least deal with issues of interest to the audience--e.g.., NYC/NYS politics, local cultural issues, and they evolve from legitimate threads.]
And let's not forget that many discussions that deal with political or economic topics do indeed have some relevance to transit. Consider, for example, the issue of NYC's drunken-sailor-on-shore-leave Medicaid spending. You can tell just by looking at a few numbers that there'd be ample funds for the Second Avenue subway if Medicaid spending were closer to the national average. Or take the "Ghouliani" thread about crime. It's not hard to figure out that reduced crime rates are part of the reason why subway ridership has increased so significantly - or that a big increase in crime (or crime fears) could change that situation.
I've been dying to start a thread about the effect of food deprivation on the verbal SAT scores of North American Ground Weasals.
Shhhhh!!!! Don't give Congress any ideas -- they'll probably appropriate a couple of million $$$ to study it.
Seriously though, I agree that most of the posts here do start on topic but sometimes go off on tangents just like many verbal conversations. It's to be expected -- after all we are having a virtual conversation when we post.
Hello all,
I saw some information about the opening of the HBLR- it is scheduled for revenue operation south of Exchange Place (Jersey City) on Monday, March 27, with free rides on the preceeding Saturday, March 25.
So I propose a SubTalk outing that day (Saturday) to visit the new system. I'll choose a meeting place when I find out more information - e.g. if they have any ceremonies taking place before the first run.
-Dave
count me just post where and when. is newark swithing and the retirement of the pcc's?
Let me know where and when, and I will be there. This I must see.
01/29/2000
March can be a fickle month for weather, so Subtalkers......PRAY FOR SUNLIGHT !!!
Bill Newkirk
My one and only "handle"
Well... I've seen the trolley-like cars run on the tracks so far and I've visited a couple of the stations. I live in Bayonne (where the train will originate from), so I've heard of this for a while. The train will take you to Exchange Place for now, but the tracks (with live wires above) have already been built to the north pass the station, going for about 2 blocks. They're will be a station behind B-Jay's (it's a large store for shopping near the mall), and there is a station (with a track bed, no tracks laid as of yet) already constructed between the Newport Centre Mall and the Newport Towers. If you wish to see the station and track bed (and the view to see all the construction that is being done), take the PATH train to Pavonia/Newport and follow signs to Mall. You will have to enter from the Newport Towers, and you will reach a walkway that would be over the station.
Since I live here, if I find out anything else of interest, I will surely post it.
-- Scruffy
01/29/2000
Isn't it heartening to know that New Jersey plans and builds this light rail line with determination yet with New York, NIMBYism and other political roadblocks, progressive projects just die because of our determination ?
Bill Newkirk
I know... I've lived in NJ for only 7 1/2 years now. I grew up in the Bronx, so I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN!
[Isn't it heartening to know that New Jersey plans and builds this light rail line with determination yet with New York, NIMBYism and other political roadblocks, progressive projects just die because
of our determination ?]
Welcome to the Vampire State.
just like here in lost angeles ( los angeles ) light rail so called projects !!!
Last night I was waiting 20 minutes in the Arlington Station for an outbound train to go to Northeastern University. While I was waiting, at least 2 C trains, 3 B trains, and 3 D trains passed me. Then the E train shows up as a single-car train, even though all the othe rtrains were double. Of course, this meant we were packed in like sardines...I was literally standing on the lower stair of the train; I had to push in more so the doors could close, plus an angry senior ciizen swore at me for doing that.
When I finally made it to Northeastern, it turned out that others experienced the same thing. Northeastern students confirmed that the E was always like that. So why does the M.B.T.A. screw people over more on this line? Isn't it bad enough that everyone deals with Green line headaches during peak rush hours, and overcrowding on the weekends...not to mention slow trains do to "traffic jams." Even though the wait was long,if the train was a double car, we would not have had such a miserable ride. -Nick
Nick,
I have a friend who is a long-time operator on the E/Heath line in Boston. He says service has always been lousy -- poor headways and one instead of two-car trains during shoulder and busy weekend hours. He thinks it's entirely political - the powers-that-be trying to show that bus service is "better."
SOUND FAMILIAR?
Sounds a bit too familiar! Think it's time to speak my mind at feedback@mbta.com -Nick
I spent nine years combined commuting to Boston Latin and Northeastern on the E. It was never good, always crowded, broke down frequently and in general stunk - and that was from 1968 to 1977!
This route is a pain in the neck for the MBTA. Due to the subway portion they can't bus it totally. Due to ADA they can't run it totally with streetcars (unless they buy another 20 Type 8s, of which they can't keep 5 of the first 100 in service). Everyone has an opinion as to why the poor service - but nobody has a workable solution.
I've been on the Green D on a weekend and all the E trains had 2 cars and we had 1. I got on at Riveside on the way in and Science Park on the way out but people were standing in the stairwell.
I rode the lines affected by the changes today and here's what I saw...
A) A few more 60 footers on the line (couldn't tell what cars)
B) R-38, R40, R68, R68A
D) R68's from Concourse AND Coney Island Yard
E) R32, and R38
and I saw a whole lot of "N" trains that said "B" in between cars, and a few "D" trains with "B" in the middle
Please disreguard the last sentence. I meant to say...
There were trains with messed up line bullets in between the cars. Offenders included N trains that said B in between the cars, and B trains that said D in between the cars.
As for the Shuttle there was 1 set of R40s, 1 set of R68s and 2 sets of R68As. 5200 and family was included in the bunch. They ran to 2nd Avenue NOT B'way Lafayette.
Last note, I was on the slant at 2nd Avenue waiting to for it to leave. I was standing next to the conductor and he asked me where I was going. I told him I was just riding around. He told me get a life. WHAT THE HECK IS THAT! It's what I like doing so that's what I'll do. He told me to get off at 42nd Street and go to the library. Instead of pissing him off I got off at 42nd and just gave him the finger when he turned around. Telling me to get a life? You don't say that to anyone you don't know. The worst part was that he said that in front of everybody...on the platform and on the train. Jerk off.
And I didn't go to the library at 42nd Street. I hopped on the 7 train to Penn Station and got on an E, took the shuttle to the D and went home.
"And I didn't go to the library at 42nd Street. I hopped on the 7 train to Penn Station and got on an E, took the shuttle to the D and went home."
7 train to Penn Station????????
Yeah I got on the 7 and went to GCT then to the Shuttle then Times Square. I transferred to the A,C,E and... and... OH YEAH! It was the Port Authority Bus Terminal NOT Penn Station. Whoops! Sorry!
Screw them royally. You have every right to ride around, because your paid your fare and are entitled to your ride. Know what? I think some transit personnel don't understand what the term railfan means because they themselves aren't railfans. Just go on doing what you know best and forget about those people who feel like giving you a hard time. When you haven't committed a crime, there's no sense in being hung by the angry mobs, just because someone doesn't like what you were doing. I've ridden the subway system quite a bit because I like to see what's going on, so don't feel bad...
-Stef
The fact that they aren't railfans can be part of the problem. The rest is that some railfans are absolute morons when it comes to behaving themselves.(Please note - I am not calling any one here names. However, if the shoe fits...). When I'm operating a redbird, the last thing in the world I need is critical commentary on the state of the system and my operation, all the while listening to my door being pounded upon. Those kinds of people should have their ring in Hell, to be shared with the fools who pop off flashes in my face while the train is coming to a stop. All of a sudden, I can't see and, oops, there goes the ten car marker. If you guys want to ride with me, that's fine (talk to Todd, he's done it already). If you want to be annoying, listen to the CR, and go get a life.
You're right, Alex. However, I object to anybody insulting the average person, railfan or not, just because they felt like it. As a railfan who enjoys riding the subway system, I don't go around being a pain in the a-- while the T/O and C/R are trying to do their job. I mind my own business and act in a manner not harmful to others, whether it be my fellow passengers or transit personnel. I don't go in there and tell the crew I'm a railfan. To do that would be proposterous. They don't really give a hoot whether I'm a subway buff (pardon the pun) or not. I don't volunteer to be a social bug unless the T/O or C/R talks to me, which is seldom.
Is it a crime to observe the happenings of the subway system? I think not. Look at it this way - the railfan window is a dying breed. Soon the railfans won't be able to get a good look at what's happening outside of the train. Some can look through the small glass window in the cab door of a R62 if they must, but it won't be good as being at the storm door of a redbird. These days T/Os keep that small window covered. With the full width cab, the railfan (or the average person) isn't even in the face of the transit personnel. Personnel get privacy as a result, at least some of the time, enabling them to do their job.
The train crew's responsibility is to see to the safety of the passengers aboard the train. You don't need to have anybody tell you how to do your job, nor should they be a distraction in general. That is a problem. The simple solution would probably be not to socialize with anyone.
Everyone who's a railfan acts differently. Some are annoying and need to be dealt with accordingly. But not every railfan has to be a bad one. But I have to stress that we have to watch our backs when dealing with people, because we don't know what they're going to do. Whatever the case maybe, I hope that judgment won't be placed on an entire group of railfans for the mistakes of a few. If anything, I think most of us are harmless:)
-Stef
Hi Alex,
Hopefully I was well-bahaved whtn I rode with you. But I think you were more excited than I was -- as it was your first day solo on the #2! It was a terrific ride!
I'm in RTO. Try to go back-or have somebody else do it-and get a badge number and/or car/time.
Or, what time on Sat did this incident happen?
Also, what's the C/R's description?
I'll speak t him and "make them an offer they couldn't refuse"!
I'll try to get an ID from the OnTrak (timekeeping) system
and you can lodge a complaint if you want.
I'm in RTO. Try to go back-or have somebody else do it-and get a badge number and/or car/time.
Or, what time on Sat did this incident happen?
Also, what's the C/R's description?
I'll speak t him and "make them an offer they couldn't refuse"!
I'll try to get an ID from the OnTrak (timekeeping) system
and you can lodge a complaint if you want.
Check your mail.
You should have pissed him off. I would've. He had no business to tell you to get a life or get off anywhere (except when the train was to go to the yard). Did he tell you to go to the library at 42nd, or at Second Avenue? And why did he bother asking you anything anyway?
He told me to got to the library at 42nd Street. I was talking to the T/O just before he asked me anything. He should've known I didn't need help. If I did I would have already asked the T/O and if the T/O didn't know I would have asked him.
01/29/2000
R-68A,
Did you say R-38's on the (B) and (E) ???
Time to dust off the camera and have a Kodachrome fit !!
Bill Newkirk
Yup! I saw 2 that's right 2 in a row on the B Line. Saw only 1 on the E. Probably more lurking around.
Saw the R38 on the E, at 42-8 going south, this afternoon around 530.
Shuttle trains are sporting the yellow "S" signs on the ends, and B signs along the sides. Mostly, the side destinations are screwed up, but the train I rode this evening was straight 21 st-Queensbridge/2 Av Manhtn.
I agree, the combo of an R38 on the E and its destination being Euclid puts us squarely in the wayback machine, Sherman
R68A
----
FRONT: Yellow S
SIDE: (have no clue)
R68
---
FRONT: Grey S
SIDE: Orange B, 21-St Queensbridge (have no clue what South Term is)
R40
---
Everything is correct
01/29/2000
R-38's ON QUEENS BLVD!!.........Ohhhh it's been a long time since they showed their faces there. And R-38's on the (B), the last time I rode them they had blue doors,beige and orange graffitied interiors and were HOTTTT in the summer!
Bill Newkirk
Yessir, Mr. Peabody, it sure does turn back the clock to rush hour in 1967-68. That's when I first saw the R-38s - on the E at 42nd St.
Except for a brief time in September 1989 when the Q line ran to 207th St. for a few weeks because of a water main break, I have never ever seen the R38 operate on any other line except the A and C. Seeing them elsewhere will be quite a shock.
The only thing that would be more "Back to the Future" than the R-38s on the E is the E running express with the R-38s between 42nd St. and WTC and using the lower level at 42nd (kind of tough today, of couse, unless the rider brings his or her own jackhammer to reopen the stairway).
I remember that, but if memory serves me, it was asbetos, not a water main break that caused R-38s (out of 207th yard) to run on the 'Q' from 207th to Coney via 6th Avenue. I think that all 8th Avenue service from 59th to Penn Station was kayoed for two or three weeks.
The confused expressions on peoples' faces along the Brighton line when they saw R-38s on the 'Q' (instead of the R-42s that mostly comprised 'Q's at that time) were absolutely priceless.
can someone explain to me why the C train will not be running for ~1 month, and how will this effect the line rosters in the meantime?
Michael B.
The switches at World Trade Center are being worked on. So the E Trains have no southern terminal. Since the C Line is the least important line it has been cut. The E Line will run as the C from 50 Street to Euclid Avenue. It is impossible to run both C Trains and E Trains in Brooklyn due to the shortage of cars. North of 50 Street more B service has been added to CPW local. At late nights E trains will terminate at Chambers Street. It doesn't terminate at Chambers during at any other time because it will back up A service. North of 50 Street there will be extra B service to pick up the slack. B service will run normally during weekdays just with more cars. On weekends it will run to 168 Street. On the A line weekdays it will run local from 145 Street to 168 Street. The trains normally used for the C Line will be put on the B and E lines and maybe the A Line. I'm not sure.
To summarize my parallel post on this thread, merely terminating the E at 2nd Avenue (Houston) instead of World Trade Center would have been much simpler than the confusing and likely to inconvenience a multitude changes the TA has instituted. Of course, as train buffs, the actual TA changes will probably prove to be alot more interesting!
I propose the following: No other service affected except for the E Line.
E Line) Jamaica Center to Church Avenue Brooklyn
Express from Jamaica Center to 7th Avenue
Local from 50 Street to West 4 Street
From West 4 Street run on F Line Express to Church Avenue, Brooklyn
This can't possible go wrong. Maybe a few car shortages but won't affect any other line. Can't bother the F's headway maybe at West 4 but that's minor.
Your idea makes sense, but sense is what is lacking at TA headquarters.
Your plan is seriously flawed. You're completely ignoring the Fulton St line though, a key aspect of the E re-routing...
Im all for express service on the F in Brooklyn, but not at the loss of Fulton St service...
I think he said that no lines will be affected. I guess that means the C line would still be running as the Fulton St Lcl.........
3TM
Everything will run normal it's just that the E runs on the F after West 4 Street and runs express to Church Avenue.
So the c will still run to Euclid all times except night. Or will the E run to Chruch Avenue and C run to Euclid Avenue All times?
C will run to Euclid all times except nights, like it alway's does.
I thought of that, but then you'd have E and C train backup at Euclid.
What. My plan was to run EVERYTHING NORMAL except extend E to Church Avenue/Culver express all times.
But the TA doesn't have enough cars for the 30000000000000000th time!!!!!
To what??? Run the E to Church Av or along the G line???
See post 90336
What? My plan was to run EVERYTHING NORMAL except extend E to Church Avenue/Culver express all times.
If I understand you I think I like your plan. Run the E via the F to Church Av. The only thing I don't understand is why to Church Av, not someplace like Smith/9th Streets or just to Coney Island??
Not to Smith/9th Street because the it will beck up the G Line. Not Coney Island because not enough cars.
Sounds more confusing than the current setup.
The real question is, what happens in a month? You'd be adding trains to Brooklyn and eliminating a merge if you stuck the E on the 8th Avenue Express track to Euclid, and ran the C local to WTC. The only possible objections are:
1) Not enough transets to run more trains to Euclid.
2) The C doesn't provide enough service at 23st and Spring, the only stops that don't get A service also.
Still, it would be great for the Fulton line to have service every five mintues at rush hour, instead of every 10 mintues.
The E will run normal up to West 4 Street. At West 4th it will run express on the F until Church Avenue. At Church Avenue it will reverse and go back to Queens.
No way the MTA introduces express service on the F line, only to take it away 4 weeks later. It would probably make F riders demand some sort of permanent express service
Good point.
I still say they shoulf have tried just extending the C out onto the eastern div. —to Metropolitan evenings & weekends and perhaps to Eastern Pkway weekdays (J & Z could skip all 4 local stations)
The C is already 8 cars. Even with the shuttle to 2nd Av., it is not that far headway wise from Myrtle-Bway to connect to the M shuttle. You would have one line with two terminals, instead of two lines and four terminals. It sounds easier to operate.
The Second Ave. station cannot be used as a terminal without having a major bottleneck at that location during the rush hours. Simply put, if the E went to Second Ave, there would be E and F trains backed up all along the line.
There was a long thread on the temporary demise of the C train on Thursday and Friday, and just before Michael's question was the beginning of a thread on cars used on the affected lines. As to the former, the crossover at World Trade Center needs to be replaced, so that station (which serves the E line) will be closed for about a month. I still think the simpler solution would have been to send the E from West 4th Street over to Broadway-LaFayette, with a turn-back at 2nd Avenue station. I don't think any other changes would have been necessary. It seems like the TA is inconveniencing about 50 times as many passengers as it needed to.
As stated before...2nd Avenue can't handle so many E Trains without slowing down F Service.
I don't buy that. I think both express tracks can be used at 2nd Avenue to turn back E trains. But even if only 1 track can be used, that should suffice. Remember that the E and the C shared the 2 track turnaround at World Trade Center before the C was extended to Brooklyn when Willy B was closed. Any occasional delays be mixing E's and F's between West 4th and 2nd Avenue are still less of a problem than the crazy, broader changes the TA is instituting for this next month.
But that was OFF HOURS. Not to mention the fact that the A was not delayed at WTC because the trains didn't interact. The F will.
The E train, which has terminated at WTC around the clock since 1976, has never shared the WTC platform terminal with any line during rush hours. It can't, unless E service gets cut.
That is why I suggested turning the C at 2nd Avenue and sending the E to Euclid. That is a little more confusing to riders and is probably impossible DUE TO THE CAR SHORTAGE! I think it is time for the TA to reconsider the spare ratio in light of the high MDBF. Does anyone know if they still require the same percentage of extra cars now as they did when cars broke down after one tenth the miles as today?
One of the reasons there is such a car shortage is that the fleet is so much more reliable, there isn't the need to have a bigger fleet as insurance against mechanical failure. I think 90%-95% of the fleet is on the road during rush hours, not counting those which might be out of service for a routine, scheduled maintenance job.
Just to inform people who keep wondering about this: 2nd Ave. cannot be used as a terminal for the E line because the headways on both the E and F would cause a significant bottleneck back to W4th St. I know this sounds like the simplest reroute plan, but operationally, it can't be done.
I agree. Besides, if E service wasn't running to Euclid Avenue, the A train would have to make all local stops in Bklyn. Since there's only an A train about every 7-8 mins on weekdays, and 10-15 mins on weekends, the A trains would be jammed packed, and for the people going to The Rockaways, the ride would not only be unpleasant but long.
If it was up to me, I would run the E via the G line from Jamaica to Smith/9th Streets. The C line would run all the way from Euclid to 168th Streets at all times. Passengers trying to get to Queens from Manhattan could either take the C or A to W4 Street to get the F, or could take the southbound A or C train to Hoyt-Schermerhorn to catch the E train running on the G line. If worst came to worst, they would have to catch the A or C to 59 Street, get the D train to 47-50 Street and get the F. If people working in midtown don't want to take the train all the way to Bklyn to catch the E, they could take the 7 to Roosevelt Av, the R to Qns plaza or the L to Lorimer Street.
This is what I think. Let me know if you agree.
Obviously, you don't have a clue on how crowded the E train is! There is no way you can cut the amount of trains 50% between Queens Plaza and the 53rd St. line. You also don't have any idea on the ridership which gets on the E at Lex, Fifth & Seventh Ave's destined for Penn Station or WTC.
I don't think the Lexington/53rd. St. station would physically be able to hold the rush hour crowds if the E was taken off the 53rd. St line.
It's a terrible idea. Bill from Maspeth is correct about the E train. Secondly, the F train is just as crowded and most of the E crowd will try to squeeze on the F. To put the E down the G line with hardly any riders is a total waste.
Well they made it through with JFK service and that was with F AND E running.
JFK exp. service never went anywhere near 2nd. Ave. And it ran on 20-30 minute headways.
I know but we were talking the possiblity of a bottleneck south of West 4 Street. At the switches.
But the JFK exp ran so infrequently that no bottleneck was created. only 2-3 JFK exp's ran during he rush hours. The E runs 12-14 per hour.
Also, they want the E to keep serving WTC. 22:30-05:00
the service relays at WTC Mainline.
It would kill the A if done in more busy hours.
Euclid Ave is the nearest true terminal, so it's being used as such, so the C is being replaced by the E because there's not enough capacity to run both.
Wouldn't work. Too many E line riders are destined for WTC. Mass confusion and door holding at W4 if the conductor says "next stop Bway Lafayette". The tower won't know if it is a C or E because the tower can't see the train. Interference with the F. Must accept call on signal to get into Second Ave at greatly restricted speed. While this is going on, next train must wait at Bway-Laf till the move is completed. Too much congestion. The E and F runs 2 minutes apart in the rush. Coming back north just before W4, the E & F must seperate to go upstairs or downstairs. All trains would have to ID via radio! Sometimes radio is tied up with other transmissions, more congestion. All these suggestions made by SubTalkers are valid, but the service plan as constituted will be the best way to keep the railroad moving. Don't y'all think the TA thought of all this stuff you guys thought of taking into account the amount of cars availiable?
As I am rapidly aging, I think there is nothing wrong with more congestion in the subway. The more congestion, the slower the trains go. I feel most secure, when the trains move at switching speed, especially between Grand Street and Broadway Lafayette and also between W.4 and W. 34 on the D.
If you are worried about congestion in Manhattan, I think the problem can be solved by diverting all Manhattan bound E and F trains to along the G route. Allow only east west routes like the #7 and L into Manhattan. No north and southbound trains below 59th Street. Use the roadbed for joggers, who need a warmer place to run during winter months. Divert all customers desiring stops north and south to buses, so that our friends over on BusTalk can have a bigger piece of the transit pie. Offer a special $10 monthly pass for telecommuters.
Funny you should mention the Grand Street, B'way Lafayette curve. I was on a R68 B train today. We left Grand Street at a high speed. When we hit the curve the trains started to get out of hand. It was shaking left and right really hard. Harder then the fastest R40 I've taken at the curve (and they're really fast). The T/O then took some brake. Aw man... R68 faster than R40 on that curb. I think I've seen everything.
You have some different physics there between the 75-foot R68/R68A and the 60-foot R40s. They swing differently around the curve. You will probably feel the pull more acutely in the 75-foot cars at the same speed.
Wayne
You have some different physics there between the 75-foot R68/R68A and the 60-foot R40s. They swing differently around the curve. You will probably feel the pull more acutely in the 75-foot cars at the same speed.
The physics is the same - it's the wheelbases and the path an observer takes that are different. However, if you stand directly over the truck in either car, then you will be travelling directly over the rails and will therefore eliminate any differences due to the longer wheelbase.
There has been much discussion about improper posting on both boards. and our Webmaster has already flushed BusTalk's board due to out-of- control posting.
Two other message boards on other sites, one on www.trolleycars.com and one on a local Baltimore Soccer site have been shut down due to nasty, insulting and general out-of control posting having nothing to do with the general subject of the boards. The Webmasters of both boards got tired of constantly dealing with the idiots and eliminated their message boards.
DON'T LET THAT HAPPEN HERE!!!!!
Please follow the simple rules:
1.Avoid flamage - messages will be deleted in the case of ad hominem attacks and insults.
2.Avoid general tourism questions. There are other web sites for that.
3.This isn't an official site of any transit agency, especially MTA New York City Transit.
Now a request: Unless you have a pressing reason for not leaving a valid e-mail address, please do so. This enables posters to personally contact a poster, to follow up individually, or take a discussion off-line that doesn't belong here.
If we all do this, SubTalk and BusTalk will be here for all of us to read, post, meet new friends and learn things they never knew before.
Thanks for reading this, please give your thoughts.
(This message also posted to BusTalk)
The messages were flushed because of personal attacks and insults. Not general off-topic posting.
There are many of us here that totally agree with you & Dave. Mr t
Agreed.
Several times recently I have posted to threads to remind posters that the subject of discussion is the post - not the poster.
Gerry
In the spirit of the recent reminders that the subject of the discussion is the posts and not the posters--- and in a general religious spirit of distinguishing between the person and his actions--- may I remind you that it is okay to describe the posts about the Union Square derailment and the downing of TWA 800 as being bizaare, but we should not attack the poster as being crazy.
I believe that that same understanding be extended to my posts and the state of my mind.
During my commute yesterday I noticed that the Signs on the Canal Street Station serving the N,R,6,J,M, and Z Lines said that it was served bby the BMT Nassau Line (JMZ) but the trackway is being replaced and new wall mosaic tiling is being installed. My question is: When will service on the JMZ return to serving the Canal Street area?
I suspect what you saw is the unused trackage from the Broadway express tracks to the Manhattan Bridge (south). The work you mentioned is being done in anticipation of some day reopening those tracks. The Nassau Street line Canal Street station is open and operating (although not in great shape!) and is accessed from the east end of the unused south platform spoken of in the first sentence. J, Z and M trains use that station.
The southbound platform on the JMZ has been renovated. The northbound platform will not be and will be shuttered.
Actually, the southbound platform on the Nassau St. line has been completely rehabilitated and looks great. My guess is that the future of the Nassau St. line is to have only this platform in operation.
Good. They have to remove those express tracks to nowhere. Do they still use them for layups?
Yes. They were jam-packed with laid up J trains last weekend due to the freezing temperatures.
The downtown express tracks to nowhere eventually will become the tracks to Williamsburg and East New York, though the south-end platform crossing will have to go. The current tracks to nowhere on the Willie B-bound side will remain as tracks to nowhere, and will be joined by the current Williamsburg-bound track.
What you saw was the Canal-Broadway station of the (former) "N" and "Q" lines, which serves the south side of the Manhattan Bridge. It is being readied for service once again when the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks re-open in 2003. New tile (with a green footer) is being installed. New track is being laid as well. There are still a few serious water leaks to be stanched and the ceiling needs to be fixed. The "J"/"M"/"Z" station is separate from this. It has undergone a half-rehabilitation, probably the current northbound side tracks will be abandoned at some point.
Wayne
Canal St. will always have water problems, because at one time it really was a canal.
It's been a few months since I've used this station to transfer from trains, but have they figured out what that disgusting stench was at the extreme end of the platform, near where the stairs to the N/R platform are? It's stunk for years there.
Well, the Canal was made by humans, it could be stopped by Humans. I assume this has to do with Collect Pond or one of it's tributaries or drains.
Underground water sources can't be stopped, only diverted, and over time they'll find a way through whatever barrier you put in front of them--cf. the Lenox Avenue floating roadbed of a couple years back. Which isn't to say that water at Canal St. is an insuperable problem, just that you'll need to do more maintenance there than in other parts of the system.... Yes, the canal at Canal St. was built to drain the Collect Pond and associated swamps.
There are underground swamps in downtown Manhattan?
>>There are underground swamps in downtown Manhattan?
Sure--Manhattan used to be a hunk of ground like any other--rougher than most, actually, because the last glacier ended here and did some weird stuff to the topography. (Some of the boulders in Central Park are from the far north, for example, dragged down here by the ice flow and left when it melted. The ridge of high ground along the SI Greenbelt, Bay Ridge, and Eastern Parkway out across the Island was pushed along by the front of the glacier, like a cowcatcher, which is why Long Island has good topsoil and New England doesn't.)
There's a very good map of New York and Brooklyn in 1776, drawn up by the British for military operations, which shows the old watercourses and swamps (reproduced in color in "Manhattan in Maps"). The Collect or Freshwater Pond was the old city's main water supply, around Worth and Centre (formerly Collect) Sts., where the Tombs and the courthouses are now. It had a swampy drainage toward both rivers, west along Canal St. and southeast via what's now the Al Smith Houses. Until a bridge was built at Broadway, the only road crossing this marshy belt was the Boston Post Road (today's Park Row-Bowery-Fourth Avenue) south of Chatham Square--you can see today how far east that route swings to avoid the site of the Collect Pond before heading north-northwest. The westward swerve of Pearl Street just above the Brooklyn Bridge avoided the old swamps to the east.
The Collect Pond quickly became polluted by street runoff and tanneries on its banks; as a nuisance and an obstacle to northerly development, it was drained early in the 19th century (via a canal at Canal St., now essentially a sewer carrying the underground source) but the area remained an unhealthy and muddy backwater, so to speak, and became the worst slum in the Western Hemisphere, the Five Points.
It is no doubt a remnant of these waterways, or perhaps an underground spring, that is wreaking such structural havoc one stop down the Nassau Street line at Chambers Street. UGH! Double UGH! Somebody call the plumbers, PLEASE! drip...drip...drip...
Wayne
Lets not forget that Foley Sq is the heart of the nauseating Collect Pond open sewer and dead horse dumping facility.
There are dozens of now forgotten rivers, creeks, ponds and streams in Manhattan that have been filled in over the years as NYC grew. However, they are still there, and subway tunnels are vulnerable to flooding from these forgotten waterways.
FORGOTTEN-NY waterways?
I think that's an excellent addition to that site, it could be called the stream necrology.
Another fascinating thing about Manhattan Island before the Europeans showed up was that it wasn't an island. Manhattan was simply an extension of the Bronx. There was a narrow piece of land that connected Manhattan to the Bronx up near where the #1 line crosses the Harlem river. It was dug out in the early 19th century.
No, I thought that the Spuyten Duyvil Creek went in a winding path from the Hudson to the Harlem River. There appears to have been a river coming from the north (the street grid has a gap) which appears to end in Van Cortlandt Park. In the LATE 19th Century, the Harlem River Ship Canal was built from the Hudson to the Harlem in a straight line cutting off Marble Hill from the rest of Manhattan and making it an island. Then Marble Hill became a part of the Bronx by filling in the Spuyten Duyvil Creek which didn't flow as well anymore as the waters took the more direct route.
Ending in Van Cortlandt park? Make sure that gap is not the old ROW of the Putnam division of the NY Central, which Hagstrom's no longer shows as a rail line.
I remember seeing I picture in the News sunday mag many
years ago, showing the IRT Broadway El crossing the Creek
at the location that the projects in Marble Hill are at today.
I think the creek then flowed thru the gap where JFK HS is today,
(perviously it was the NYC train yards). Growing up in that
area, there were rumors that there was another covered up creek
along the line of Tibbet Ave.
Bill
I've got a few questions regarding the way a couple of stations are depicted on the current official map.
First, about the Elderts Lane/75th St. stop on the J train.
(And these questions are quite apart from the fact that the street itself is called ELDERT --no final "S"-- Lane. As an aside, does anyone know why this apparant error has come down through the ages?)
My questions involve the way the station is shown on the current official subway map.
In keeping with the new trend to downsize the station names, the stop, which had been shown on previous maps as "Elderts La./75th St." is now shown only as "75th St." However, the signs at the station read only "Elderts Lane". Are there plans to change the signs? The way it is now must be very confusing to newcomers and visitors.
Also, I just recently noticed that the current maps place the station on the Brooklyn side of the borough line, while the previous maps showed it on the Queens side.
So, one might ask, in which borough does the station lie really? Well, Queens mostly, but not entirely.
At that point on Jamaica Ave., the borough line is in the middle of Eldert La. The station itself stretches from 75th St. on the east (where the only entrance is), to the western (Brooklyn) side of Eldert La. on the west. This puts maybe 50 feet of the 2-block long station in Brooklyn, with the rest of it in Queens.
It seems to me that, if the new maps are going to give the station a Queens "address" by calling it "75th St.", then they ought to show it on the Queens side of the border (as they formerly did). Does anyone know why this small but strange change was made?
In another point about the loss of "secondary names" on the official map, I just recently realized that "71st Ave/Continental Ave." stop on the IND is now just called "Forest Hills, 71st Ave."
First of all, why drop "Continental Ave."? Unlike any of the removed historic names such as "Boyd", "Beebe", or "Rawson"; "Continental Ave." is currently in use for the section of 71st Ave. between Queens Blvd. and Kessel St. (near Metropolitan Ave.).
Secondly, the name of the station is *still* "two-tiered"; so if the aim was to get rid of a "secondary" name, this aim has not been accomplished, while some important information has been lost.
I think they ought to restore the "Continental Ave." name to the station.
Ferdinand Cesarano
When I lived there 40 years ago, the name of the street was Eldert's Lane, both in Brooklyn and Queens. All of the street signs at that time spelled Eldert's with an s on the end. The county line ran down the middle of the street. People living on the east side of the street were residents of Woodhaven in Queens County. People living on the east side of the street were residents of Cypress Hills in King's County or if you would prefer, Brooklyn. I think the 75th St was added to the station sign because of its location on the county line, with one end of it being in Brooklyn and the other end in Queens. If I remember correctly 3/4 of Franklin K lane High School was in Brooklyn and 1/4 was in Queens. The Dexter Park baseball stadium (which isn't there anymore) was completely in Queens.
Interesting that the signs once said "Elderts" with the "s" (though, I presume, without the apostrophe).
However, all the street signs now say "Eldert".
I was curious about this, so I looked at a few different map sources, and here is what I found:
Hagstrom shows it as "Eldert". However, American Map, which is Hagstrom's sister company under Langenscheidt Publishing, shows it as "Elderts".
Both Rand-McNally and Van Dam show it as "Eldert".
Among the online services, both Yahoo Maps and MapQuest return the same results whether you search for "Eldert" or "Elderts"; but the maps they generate mark the street as "Eldert".
MapBlast returns the correct map when you search for "Eldert", but gives no matches for the name "Elderts".
Finally, on the official NYCDOT site, there is a page for the Grant Avenue Municipal Parking Field (http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/html/get_around/park/brkpk-16.html) which describes the lot as being on "Pitkin Avenue, between Sheridan Avenue and Eldert Lane".
This would seem to settle it in favor of "Eldert", even though searching on "Elderts" will also return this exact same page (with the street name spelled "Eldert" on it).
So, it seems that the street has actually changed names over time, and that the "s" was dropped somewhere along the line. Was the dropping of the "s" simply a mistake which became "officialized"?
Ferdinand Cesarano
I've got a pre-1955 BMT system Map (NYC Board of Transportation) The station name is Elderts La. Of course, there's Van Sicklen Ave on the Culver line.
-Hank
I think it was just Van Siclen wthout the Avenue. Last spring there was a question about it in SubTalk and a poster stated there was a Van Sicklen Hotel over there by Neptune Av.
>>>Of course, there's Van Sicklen Ave on the Culver line. <<<
That station was known as Van Sicklen (without the "Ave."). It was named for a hotel there that was razed long ago (much as the Sea Beach Line is).
www.forgotten-ny.com
To add further confusion, decades ago, Eldert(s) Lane was known as Enfield Street.
How do I know this? It's part of the job as webmaster of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can vaguely remember a Jamaica Ave.-Dexter Court location being given for FKLHS. There were recitals given there during the late 60s which were organized by the Lithuanian community, and that was the address they used on announcements. The only recital we went to there was the one I mentioned a while back, in March of 1968, and I missed the first half because I had something else in mind - taking a JJ to 168th St. and back. I tried to talk my folks into going to one of the other recitals so I could do some more subway riding, but they quickly saw right through that guise and said, no dice.
I wonder if Dexter Ct even exists anymore since Dexter Park was demolished for housing. Dexter Ct used to be a dead-end when it reached the cemetary.
I wonder if Dexter Ct even exists anymore since Dexter Park was demolished for housing.
Dexter Ct used to be a dead-end when it reached the cemetary.
Dexter Court appears to still be there, running north from Jamaica Avenue to its end at 85th Road, three blocks to the north. There is a foot path/stairway from the end of Park Lane South to 85th Road.
Wayne
Wayne, I don't think those blocks were there fifty years ago. Dexter Ct ran north, with no intersections. The parking lot and the ballpark occupied the east side of the street, and the athletic fields and the high school occupied the west side. There were no streets at all. I have a feeling that the streets were created when the ballpark was razed, and the housing built on the east side. Dexter Ct used to come to a deadend at the edge of Cypress Hills cemetary.
Actually it called Continental Ave in Forest Hills Gardens only. I believe you are correct about Kessel, but it goes back to 71st Avenue at the railroad station, two blocks from Queens Blvd.
You say that the "Continental Ave." portion ends at the LIRR station two blocks from Queens Blvd.
But, aren't there buldings on 71st Ave right near QB which carry dual addresses? I could swear that I have seen buildings there which have signs showing both addresses -- a regular address such as "107-39 71st Ave.", with a Forest Hills address such as "49 Continental Ave." directly underneath. (I am making up those house numbers.)
This would seem to indicate that the "Continental Ave." portion goes all the way to Queens Blvd.
Ferdinand Cesarano
It did years ago, before the numbering system came in. Some of the buildings may have put the Continental Ave. name for nostalgic purposes, but the street signs between Queens Blvd. and the Gardens is only 71st Ave.
This also explains why the 75th Ave. station also has signs saying Puritan Ave., which is what 75th Ave. is called as it cuts through FHG.
No. It has that name as these are all the original names of the Queens streets. By the time the IND was opened, the numbering system was adopted, however I'm sure that at that time many people still knew the streets by their old names. And in Forest Hills Gardens, which already existed, they owned (and still do) the streets and refused to rename them.
I don't believe there are any references to Puritan Ave at the 75th Ave. station itself, although at one time, subway maps were labeled, "75th-Puritan Ave."
The wall tile shows only "71st Ave". The large black platform sides read "71-Continental Av". The old white signs on the I-beams added "Forest Hills" to that, although the new black ones don't.
I am in agreement with others in this thread that "Continental Avenue" is shown only on street signs within the confines of Forest Hills Gardens proper. It is 71 Avenue at Metropolitan as well as at Queens Boulevard, although some folks may refer to these portions as "Continental Avenue" as well.
By the way - some folks still refer to 75th Avenue as "Puritan Avenue". I wonder if that's what its called in the Gardens section.
Wayne
Yep, but unlike Continental Avenue, to get from the station to Puritan, one must cross four active energized LIRR tracks.
01/29/2000
Today was a banner day for photography for me when I did some shooting on the Oyster Bay Line. I started out at Sea Cliff, the morning sun was just right and the snow was nice and clean. In fact the same went for the line north of Sea Cliff.
The Sea Cliff station was restored and quite beautifully done. The Glen Street station is undergoing restoration. I didn't shoot Glen Cove because I didn't like the lighting. But bear in mind I was chasing the line by car. I concentrated on some small trestles and a nice stone arched bridge north of Locust Valley. I stopped by at Oyster Bay and shot some lay ups in the yard. The yard reconstruction is still going one.
Please note that DE-30's as well as dual modes are used here. At Locust Valley a consist of clunkers dead heading to Oyster Bay was waiting for the signal. If you want to chase the line by car, it's rather simple because of the long headways. One hour and some two hour headways are the norm. The two hour headway comes around lunch time so you can break for lunch. But watch out because the roadways can be confusing so a good road map must suffice.
The old tower at Locust Valley is still there, it's now the Nassau County Police Dept.'s 8th Pct. "booth". It still has the old LIRR incandescent lights too.There were 3 bi-level trains and one set of old timers laid up at Oyster Bay. The station building there is supposed to be the new home to Steam #35 foundation, not to be confused with Steam #39 RR out in Riverhead. So check out Nassau County's only diesel branch (except Central), snow is a must.
Bill Newkirk
Question is...
When are they going to electrify that area so in can be more accessable to people?
Unless residents prefer to keep it this way...
I checked my LI Bus map. No busses down towards the Oyster Bay end either.
Yeah they do. At least the Oyster Bay people at the end do. Somehow, by keeping rail acess horrible, the area's a more desireable place to live. I've dealt with Glen Cove Road traffic on my bike. It's no fun at all.
My answer is simple - electrify the line to Glen Street and cut it back to there. Then, the people in oyster Bay can have their exclusivity, and those of us who live in the real world can have a decent way to get to NY.
The diesel sevice on the OB line is a big hole in the LIRR, and the Dual Modes aren't going to fix anything because they're just as slow as the old stuff was.
There's a reason why it has such a low ridership, despite being in a VERY dense area, and between 2 very busy lines. It's cause it's slow as hell, and has little service. Dual modes aren't gonna fix either of those problems - I'm a few blocks from Glen Head, yet it's faster for me to drive to port Washington, and take the PW line into NY, than it is to take the OB line.
I'd love an electric Oyster Bay line, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Increase the frequency and have some sort of skip-stop service and the line would be very efficient, even with diesels. The Main Line has a type of skip-stop with Merrillon Av and New Hyde Park. Remember there are several electric lines that don't have too many one seat rides to Penn, namely the Far Rock Line and the Hempstead Line. They mostly go to Flatbush Av and you have to change at Jamaica for Penn.
Increase the frequency and have some sort of
skip-stop service and the line would be very
efficient, even with diesels. A big problem with the Oyster Bay Line is that alo of the stations are very close to each other. The Main Line has a
type of skip-stop with Merrillon Av and New Hyde
Park. Remember there are several electric lines
that don't have too many one seat rides to Penn,
namely the Far Rock Line and the Hempstead Line.
They mostly go to Flatbush Av and you have to change
at Jamaica for Penn.
I shouldn't be answering my own post but I must say one problem with increasing the frequency of the line can cause some bottlenecks at the crossing-at-grade switch at Mineola by Nassau Tower. It would basically have the same effect there that increasing "M" service would have at Myrtle/Bway.
[There's a reason why it has such a low ridership, despite being in a VERY dense area, and between 2 very busy lines. It's cause it's slow as hell, and has little service. Dual modes aren't gonna fix either
of those problems - I'm a few blocks from Glen Head, yet it's faster for me to drive to port Washington, and take the PW line into NY, than it is to take the OB line.]
I'm surprised that the Port Washington line is used as an alternative, as I thought that non-resident parking near PW line stations was as scarce as hen's teeth. Or do you generally travel outside rush hours?
The reason people take the Port Washington line instead of the O.B. line has nothing to do with electric vs. diesal. It has to do with the map. The P.W. line is pretty much a direct route without going through Jamaica while the O.B. Line uses the Main Line to Mineola than turns and becomes a North/South route with very close together stations while it heads due North to Oyster Bay. Even though MU's accellerate faster than diesels the line would still be very slow even with M1's and M3's. Another LIRR line with the same type of extra mileage is the West Hempstead Line. I'm sure many people in W Hempstead use the Hempstead line the same way Oyster Bay people use the P.W. Line.
"The reason people take the Port Washington line instead of the O.B. line has nothing to do with electric vs. diesal. It has to do
with the map. The P.W. line is pretty much a direct route without going through Jamaica while the O.B. Line uses the Main Line
to Mineola than turns and becomes a North/South route with very close together stations while it heads due North to Oyster
Bay."
That's true. Even with electrification a ride from, say, Sea Cliff to Penn Station is still going to be about 50-55 minutes. Compare that with 35-40 minutes (less than 30 during rush hour) from Manhasset and you'll still have people driving over to the PW branch.
Given the Oyster Bay's current low ridership, even if it was electrified, I wouldn't be surprised to see service similar to what the West Hempstead line gets -- shuttles to and from Jamaica (or Mineola) with little direct service to either Flatbush or Penn -- just during the rush hour.
So, those who live between Roslyn and Glen Cove will keep driving to the Port Washington stations, just like the folks in West Hempstead make their way up to the stations in Garden City and those in Malverne find their way down to Lynbrook and Valley Stream.
As for the parking situation, creative minds can usually find a way to get a "resident" permit. Years ago, when I lived near the Metropark station in New Jersey there was a 7 year waiting list for parking permits (this was before they built that massive parking deck). When buying a home, it was worth a thousand dollars or more on the purchase price to agree not to notify the county that you were moving and have the permits keep being mailed to the address.
Chuck
Don't forget that it was the ultra wealthy in Oyster Bay that killed Gov. Rockefeller's plan to build a bridge from Oyster Bay ( that would connect with the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expwy Rte 135) to Rye (that would connect with the Cross Westchester Expy Interstate 287)
It doesn't need to be electrified. Its accessability has nothing to do with whether its diesel or electric. I remember when the whole main line was diesel (except for the electric trains to E Williston) to both Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma and the service and efficiency was the same as now.
01/30/2000
Scruffy,
Re: Electrification of the Oyster Bay Branch.
Most likely never, with all the money spent on the bi-levels and making all platforms high level and handicapped accessible, electrification would be out of the question. Remember, in 1955 this was the last line to use steam engines. I was told the lines riders wanted it that way. I am not sure if there are any dual mode trains to Penn Station during rush hours.
Bill Newkirk
Although I have no idea if its true or not, years ago when I drove a cab a fellow cab driver at my garage was a former LIRR engineer. He said the reason the O.B. line was the last to convert to diesel was that a piece of the line ran on private property and the owner was a train buff who put in the lease that they must keep steam engines running on the line. That makes more sense than the community as I doubt the LIRR would let the community keep them from upgrading.
By the way, the parking lot of the cab company we worked for is in your 2000 calendar on the February page. (The lot left of the triplex on 31st Street at the Bebee Station, although I worked there much later, in the 50's)
Gee Bill, I used O.B. line trains today both ways to and from Jamaica, however since I got on and off at Mineola I really wasn't really on the line, just on the trains.
Hi all,
Since I live in Denver, Colorado...I want to ask a question about no C service for a month...
Station signs, do they put E circle sticker on each station signs such as outside entrance, platform signs telling which trains stops here and where each trains go? or do they use red and white service notices all over?
Thanks,
Mike the Mailman
In my station they are just using the red and white service notice signs. I don't think the MTA would redo all of the signs with stickers, there are just too many.
-Harry
It wouldn't suprise me if they did. You know how they LOVE to waste money.
Peace,
Andee
They have just been using the red and white service notices. It would take too much work to cover up the C train signs etc... That means when service is restored, they'll just have to undo everything. It isn't worth it just for one month.
Thanks all, that's what I was wondering, you know MTA can sometimes waste things!
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman
Come to think of it, I've never seen a circle C sign, since as far back as I remember all the C's are R 32 silverliners, with no roll signs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ther are roll signs on the sides of the R32/38's
The R-10s had them. Some had signs with the newer graphics while others had their original roller curtains.
I'm pleased to announce a new forum where all are welcome to share their CTA headaches, personal musings about Chicago issues, or anything about city life in general. The Graffiti Wall can be found at http://www.NthWard.com. The format is very similar to SubTalk (uses WebBBS 4.02), so anybody with a web browser can post and no sign-in process is required.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The features of it are cool, SubTalk and BusTalk should get an upgrade.
Write Dave Pirmann a check and help it happen.
Well, upgrading might end up resetting the number of messages, I don't want to lose the oppurtunity for our messages to get to the HUNDRED THOUSAND mark, I hope to be the hundred thousandth customer. I hope Subtalk will be around to celebrate it's 10th anniversary and ONE MILLIONTH (projected) message in 2007.
Upgrading the SubTalk script wouldn't reset the messages, nor would it cost anything. WebBBS is a free program.
However, as David pointed out a while ago, he has made a number of custom changes to the SubTalk script on his own, and they would all be lost if the script were replaced with a newer version. I doubt that any improvements would be worth the hassle.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I initially checked out David Cole's website Nth Ward, thinking that it was the Neuropsychiatric Ward at the University of Illinois. I am about due for a weekly pit stop.
However, I did find a very interesting and personal website. So to my fellow malcontents,drop over to Nth ward and help get David Cole's message board off to a twisted start.
I don't feel like messing with html, so just click back to the previous post for a clickable link.
Which car type does everyone think looks the best? I'm talking strictly looks and nothing else. I think the R68's are the best looking. The R142's look promising, too. The 142's front end looks good. Outside of NY, I think DC Metro's cars are the best looking.
What does everyone else think?
Any model that just got all the glass replaced! No more scratches till the vandals destroy them.
Nooo. The R68A, the A, the most important part of the sentence. The R68 has all those black pieces of rubber along it's windows. Makes it look bad. The steel on the R68A is smooth. I vote R68A!
I AGREE! R-68A is the best looking train.
Take that, all of you people and your slurs.
[I AGREE! R-68A is the best looking train.
Take that, all of you people and your slurs.]
Yes, the R-68A's (and R-68's) are nice looking ... and we get to see them for a long period of time as they slowly wallow past.
YEA !! THE HIPPO !!! RIGHT ?? ( and no railfan window) ....
Having a railfan window goes under another category. That's why this is the only one in which the R-68/68A have a chance.
Well, those slowpokes do have railfan windows on the B ends. Unfortunately, they're arranged so that the A ends, with the full-width cab, face out.
The R-68s look goofd on the outside, but the stainless steel interior has a look that's both cold and cheap, as though the MTA didn't have the money to pay for some kind of panneling like on the R-46. I'm assumning the idea was stainless steel is easier to cleam graffiti off of on the outside, so why not use it on the inside as well? As we've found out, it unfortunately makes a great sratching surface.
If we're talking about interiors, the best one is either the R-44 or R-46. For some reason, the R-46 seems better to me, even though the R-44 has those glass panels at the end of the bench by the door which is good.
the R-44 has those glass panels at the end of the
bench by the door which is good.
IIRC the R46 had them too when delivered, but during the GOH, they were, unfortunately, removed. Many a time I leaned up against what I thought was a glass panel on an R46 only to find it had been removed, and I met only air.
Wayne
The panels were removed from the R-44s during GOH, too, but were subsequently put back (after NYCT found a way to put vandal-resistant frames on them).
David
Then why can't they do the same thing for the R46s?
Wayne
I never said they couldn't...just that they didn't :-)
David
all of the pre world war 2 cars !!!
Does that include a '38 Buick Mr. Willie?
BUILT BETTER THAN A 2000 BUICK !!!! ( and you could work on and in it too !!! ) ....
If it is, then buy one. See how easy it is to maintain it, prevent it from rusting, getting replacement parts and paying for gasoline.
That is IF it passes the emissions test.
I will agree to that. and only from a strictly aesthetic point of view - IF and ONLY IF the said R68A has a BLACK FLOOR. Otherwise it's the S.O.S.
Wayne
Oh, from the inside I hate the R-68A, it looks nice when clean and NOT SCRATCHED, but what are the chances of finding one of those? And the black floors are a nice touch.
I'm sorry, but at 6' 6" I have to look at the Hippo SIDEWAYS when I'm inside, from that prospective she doesn't look all that great. If I was afraid of small/confined spaces I'ld like her even less, i.e. so big on the outside but so small on the inside.
Mr t__:^)
That's interesting, I didn't think that any subway cars had lower ceilings than others. Can someone else confirm this?
The R-38's (original sets) are on the top of my list. Second would be the unique Slant R-40s. Although not BMT equipment (sigh!) I would have to say the World's Fair colored R-33/36 cars would be third. Fourth would be the R-46. After that everything else is a toss-up.
Of the older, out-of-service cars: (1) R-1/4/9 series; (2) R-11/34; (3) BMT Standards
Doug aka BMTman
From the outside, I might agree that the 68 has the nicest lines. On the inside - that's another story. Riding an R-68 is like riding inside a tuna can. I think the interior of the R-46 is the nicest and most durable. I'd almost give the edge to the 44s because they have the wind-screen glass but the cab door ruins it.
As far as external looks go, the R42 wins in my book. They looked even better when they were new, sporting that nice blue stripe, with those HUGE, colorful front route signs. I'd rate the R32 as the worst, simply because it looks like a garden shed on wheels.
The R-46 is the nicest. Notice that the interiors have the least amount of vandalism. The panaling is scratch resistant and graffiti is easily removed. The train rides quietly and smoothly dispite its age- delivered in 1976. Even with the GOH, these trains have gone through many years of abuse by vandals and have held up well. Look at the interiors of the "tin can" R-68 and 68A's. Metal panals scratched up just like the windows. Light lenses broken because the edges are made of plastic- not metal like the R-46's. Roll sign glass scratched and chunks broken off and gouged out. The interior walls are damaged permanently with the scratchiti and it cannot be removed. Entire panals will have to be replaced- hopefully with formica like the R-46's. The R-68's will undergo a GOH in a few years, hopefully the MTA will have an idea how to solve the vandalism problem these cars are prone to by then.
"I'd rate the R32 as the worst, simply because it looks like a garden shed on wheels."
Yeah, but thats only after the rebuild. They looked sharp when new, especially with the blue doors. By the way, my choice is definitely the R1-9's. They are by far the most handsome of cars, and even to this day, when I think of the subway I automatically associate them in my mind.
Another R 1-9 man. Good taste seems to rule here.
Doug aka BMTman
I thought the R1-9 cars were ugly, bland and claustrophobic looking, with those tiny windows located on their doors.
Maybe so, but their moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses and any other sounds I may have omitted were music to my ears. Plus if the first car of such a train didn't have headlights, that was an added treat.
My vote for the best looking cars goes to the R-32s as delivered. With their blue doors and green backlit side destination signs, they were a sight to behold to a wide-eyed 8-year-old from Indiana on his first visit to the Big Apple in July of 1965. I have liked them ever since. Now if they could only bring back LEGIBLE bulkhead signs.
Runner up would be the R-10s in their first 1960s teal and white paint scheme, the one with the narrow teal band at the belt rail. It gave them a racy appearance.
Chris - are you sure you are thinking of R1/9 cars???
"with those tiny windows located on their doors."
R1/9s had reasonably good sized windows and came with windows up front on the passenger side - something missing from any more recent car.
I say the R62's are my favorite. Also on the LIRR, the M-3's are nice and fast!!!!
My experience with R1-9's is limited to admiring them in the Transit Museum, or in pictures supplied on this website. From the outside, the R1/9 door windows seemed much smaller than later model subway cars.
It must have been funny to see the IND and BMT during the 1940's and 50's, with the IND cars all looking alike with the same bland design, then seeing the unbelievable variety of car types/lengths/colors/styles on the old BMT.
The R-10s added some spice to the IND when they arrived in 1948-49.
On the BMT, the Southern Division was served exclusively by BMT standards and Triplexes, all of which were originally painted brown and eventually took on a greenish, grimy look. The lone exception was the Franklin Ave. shuttle, where the experimental Zephyr put in some time. All of the other oddball stuff ran on the Eastern Division, as did the BMT standards.
You are correct in that the R-1/9 door windows were indeed smaller than on later cars, but they made up for it on their storm doors. Check out that large pane of glass on R-1 #100's storm doors the next time you're at the Transit Museum. Their door windows didn't bother me. When I rode on them, I was oblivious to everything except their marvelous sounds. If there happened to be a backlit side destination sign, that was an added bonus.
Bland may be true about the IND and itsm R-1-9's. But they lasted!
Joe C
In a previous post - Chris R said - "It must have been funny to see the IND and BMT during the 1940's and 50's, with the IND cars all looking alike with the same bland design, then seeing the unbelievable variety of car types/lengths/colors/styles on the old BMT."
My opinion - R1/9s and the variety of BMT equipment had more in common than you may think. I liked all the BMT and IND equipment of that era. But it seems some would look down their noses at prewar IND equipment in comparison with BMT trains. I'd take issue with that. They all made quite a bit of bull and pinion gear noise. The coloring of all the cars over time became a kind of grayish, blackish, rusty looking mess. Most had cane or rattan seats.
They all had incandescent lighting. All had pneumatic doors and virtually everything had been built prior to WWII.
They even had a similar odor to them - probably from pneumatic reservoirs, seating materials, grease and ozone.
A start at change came with the R11s in 1949. But as we all know - the fleet never got beyond 10. However, they were the forerunners of a whole new look - stainless steel - expressed in the huge fleet of R32s.
When they were new - the R32s seemed to signal more in the way of change than anything in my lifetime had on the subway. Stainless steel was used for the first time in a large fleet of cars, bright colored interiors were introduced - Green backlit signs were standard. Faster acceleration and deceleration than any prewar cars enabled faster operation (at least in theory.)
For those of you who are not R1/9 fans - that's fine. But you obviously don't know what you missed.
R1/R9 with rattan seat, I remember checking out the babe's behinds to
see who had an eggowaffel butt, then you knew who had a seat on the way to work.
R32's are my favorite IND/BMT cars. They are just like the redbirds on the IRT. The other cars on the IND/BMT are slow and noisy. It takes a year for an F to leave Lexington Avenue/53 Street. I like the R62's the most in NYC. The Breda Cars here in DC are my favorites in the subways I have been in. The Rohr cars have the seat at the railfan window turned in so at rush hour people take that seat and I can barely see anything even if I was there first (they do it on the Breda cars too but not as often).
BUT question i mean i really waht to know .... can i am my vidieo camera straight out the front window ??
I like the R32 as a car for it's performance. It's looks are another subject. As I said, think garden shed on wheels ...
I preferred the 32's when they had blue doors and marker lights. Now they look like cyclops on its ends.
I have always been partial to the R36 and the slant-R40 for its speed.
Ah, yes...my old friend Polyphemus. Bet even HE couldn't read those miserable destination signs :o>
Wayne
01/31/2000
Here are my entries in this:
1) BMT Standard: I am partial to this since I grew up with these cars. But for being designed shortly after the turn of the century (19th to 20th), these cars were very well designed and appointed for this time. Add to the fact of three different roof styles to make it interesting. These cars were said to be inspired in design by Boston's Cambridge-Dorchester cars, I don't care for these cars simply for the placement of the door leaf apparatus mounted on the outside of the car as opposed to being hidden inside.
2) R-32: When I was 13 years old and riding the Sea Beach, I first spotted them being tested on the test track at 8th Ave. I was amazed at this totally shiny new subway car with blue doors and pantograph gates. When entering service on the (Q) Brighton Exp. I really was impressed with the aqua blue interior and picture windows. A break from the past smee's running.
3) R-33/36 Flushing: Early memories riding with my family to the World's Fair made this a must. I was taken by the most classiest paint scheme till this day. The picture windows also was a plus.
4) R-11 (R-34): The late 1940's styling inside and out make this a unique favorite. Also add to this that they were 10 of a kind. The fan forced heating underneath the seats made the cars nice and comfy in the winter.
5) BMT Bluebird: Everthing about this short lived experimental trainset pointed to styling ahead of their time. The late 1930's art deco design and two tone blue and white paint showed the BMT had an eye for the future.
6) BRT elevated cars (#1200 series): In comparing the Manhattan elevated cars with the BRT ones, I feel the BRT el cars with their larger end platforms looked much nicer. Window placement, the roof lines and interior appoinments make them unique in my eyes. I wish I rode them when they were in therir heyday.
Bill Newkirk
I'd have to go with the R-110B's, although I have never actually seen one in real life. A close second would be the R-68A's.
Outside NYC, I'd have to agree that the Washington Metro cars are the nicest looking, although the interior colors look more than a bit dated. Close second would be MARTA, and the CTA's 2200's and 3200's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The addresses you list in your banners, do they have any meaning?
Yeah, www.NthWard.com is the address of my own website.
A ward, in this context, is the city council district in Chicago and a number of other cities. I happen to live in the 43rd Ward of Chicago.
"Nth" refers to an infinte value, as in "You annoy me to the nth degree," etc.
First Ward, 22nd Ward, 43rd Ward, etc... The name of my site is The Nth Ward. I hope that explains it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
BTW, this banner is the only one I have so far that doesn't specifically refer to The Nth Ward. But anybody who has ever used a MetroCard at a NYC subway turnstyle should be able to recognize it as a metaphor for futility. You keep swiping and swiping, but the damn turnstyle never lets you through...
NO, that's not what I meant, I'm talking about the Chicago addresses (I can't really call them street address or can I?). I traced one to the Lincoln Park neighborhood near the actual park (your address perhaps, as you mention you live in LP), another to where the John Hancock Tower stands, and another to Ashland and Addison.
I traced one to the Lincoln Park neighborhood near the actual park (your address perhaps, as you mention you live in LP), another to where the John Hancock Tower stands, and another to Ashland and Addison.
Damn, you guessed 2 out of 3 before I even had a chance to post my other message! On the green one, the address is 1060W, not 1600W. This puts the location several blocks east of Ashland. Hint: Go to your local video store and rent The Blues Brothers.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've never seen The Blues Brothers, but I looked up 1060 W Addison in Mapquest, and that put me right in front of Wrigley Field.
Wrigley Stadium!
I'm a BIG Blues Brothers fan, so I know that one.
Very Clever!
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. If you're referring to the text that looks like "3600N 1060W" on some of my banners, that refers to a specific location on Chicago's street grid. All platform signs on the CTA system list the location of that station in relation to the grid.
How the Chicago street grid works:
The street pattern of Chicago resembles a Cartesian Grid of epic proportions. Madison Street is the X axis, and State Street is the Y axis. The intersection of Madison and State ("the world's busiest intersection") in the heart of the Loop would be the 0,0 point on the grid, and all street addresses in the city originate from that point.
Each multiple of 800 in a street address refers to one mile, and major north-south and east-west avenues in Chicago are located at half-mile increments of the grid. (Unlike NYC, the designation "Avenue" or "Street" has no specific meaning here.) With the numbered streets on the South Side, the number refers to that street's location on the grid. 35th Street is 3500 South, etc.
Example: Division Street is 1200 North, and Ashland Avenue is 1600 West. That means Division is 1.5 miles north of Madison Street, and Ashland is 2 miles west of State Street. The CTA Blue Line stop at Division would have platform signs that say "Division 1200N 1600W."
Other examples:
Fullerton stop on the Red Line: 2400N 1000W
Belmont stop on the Blue Line: 3200N 3400W
Halsted stop on the Englewood branch of the Green Line: 6300S 800W
Once you learn how Chicago's street numbering system works, you are guaranteed never to get lost in the city.
Back to my Nth Ward banners:
I have three banners that resemble CTA platform signs. They are all identical except for the background color and the street address on the right-hand side. All three are down below.
Chicago Trivia time:
1) What did each of the background colors mean on the CTA system up until some point not very long ago?
2) Each address shown refers to a specific location in Chicago which is NOT a stop on the CTA system. What is located at each one, and in the case of the red banner (2500N 444W), what is its significance?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Blue was the background color for "B" stops on the Ravenswood line, green was the background color for "B" stops on the rest of the system, and red was the background color for "A" stops on the rest of the system.
In answer to question #1:
During the period of A-B Skip stop train operation (1948-1995) the following color designations were used:
Blue - designated a station where A & B trains stopped.
Red - Designated a station where only A trains stopped.
Green - Designated a station where only B train stopped.
These signs still exist at most stations and you can tell what stations were either A or B, even today.
Addionally, North-South trains (old Howard/A-Englewood/Jackson Park-B)used marker lights on the front on the train as follows:
Yellow/Yellow - designated an A train.
Green/Green - designated a B train.
You can see this practice even today on the present Green Line (Lake-Englewood/East 63rd). 63/Ashland trains display Yellow/Yellow markers and East 63rd trains display Green/Green markers.
The West-Northwest (Congress/Douglas/O'Hare) also displayed markers as follows:
Yellow/Yellow - designated an A train.
Green/Green - designated a B train.
This practice also applies to trains going to Forest Park train displays a Yellow/Yellow marker, whereas the 54th/Cermak train displays a Green/Green marker.
As for question #2:
875N/175W is the offical site of the John Hancock Center, I think. I know it is located at 875 North, as I worked at the JHC for about six months when I first moved to Chicago.
3600N/1060W is a classic, and it happens to be the address of Wrigley Field. Anyone who has watched the movie 'The Blues Brothers' would catch this one easily, or at least should be aware of this fact. You were correct is displaying this a Green, as the Addison station was a B station up until the rebuilt station opened.
2500N/444W happens to be the location of your apartment as I've visited your Website.
I am very aware of the Northside, as my location is 3150N/540W.
A snowy day in Chicago, it is!
-Jim K.
Chicago
Addison was still a B station after the station was replaced; it just had blue instead of green signs for some reason.
A few other weird oddities:
Western on the O'Hare line has (I think) green signs even though it's an A station. It may be the other way around; I can't remember.
It's hard to explain, but North/Clybourn has the symbol and name sign colors mixed up, and on top of that, both colors are wrong.
Let me do a little Chicago "L" quiz:
1). Unrenovated State and Dearborn subway stations all have different highlight colors which are used for the old name signs, the band at the top of the tile, etc. What was this meant for, and can anyone tell me what the original groupings were (I don't even know them)?
2). What's a little-known but interesting fact about the Paulina station on the Ravenswood? (Hint: it's the reason that the A/B stopping pattern in that area is so odd; Paulina and Addison are two "A" stations in a row!)
3). What is found at the Clark/Division subway station that is no longer found in any other State Street Subway station?
-Jacob
I'll try number one. Originally Chicago's subway stops were color coded--in order: blue, brown, green, red, then blue, brown, etc. The tile trim, the pained areas, all were the same color for the station.
David Harrison
Another trivia is that the multiple of 800 per mile breaks down south of Madison Street because the first three miles have non-standard blocks. Thus, Roosevelt, one mile south of Madison is 1200 S, Cermack is 2200 S, an 31st ST is 3100 S. From there on southward well beyond the city limits, city blocks are the standard 8 to a mile (660 ft or 10 NYC subway cars???).
The mile streets are called section streets because the square mile subdivision from the NW Territory days back in the 1790's--remember high school US history--are called sections; these section streets south of Madison don't have the even 400 and 800 designations.
After 31st, 3100 S is 39th(Pershing RD) 3900 S; 47th, 4700 S; 55th, 5500 S; 63rd, 6300 S and so on. The east-west streets south of Madison mostly have number names.
Also every other section was designated Canal Land to pay for a canal between Lake Michigan and the Illinois River and the section surveying coming south from the Wisconsin border didn't match the surveying from the south so section streets jog three blocks along the Indian Boundary line (Interstate 57 where it runs SW-NE)---talk about trivia!!!
BTW talking about street grids, examining a map very closely, there is not one major street in NYC that runs TRUE NORTH/SOUTH!
David Harrison
The Chicago street numbering system extends well boyond the Chicago city line into many of the suburbs (while others use their own numbering system). The most interesting extension is the numbering system used in unincorporated areas (and within some municipalites) of DuPage County (west of Chicago). The numbering system there gives some funny looking buiding numbers. For example, there's a K-Mart store at 17W734 22nd Street in Oakbrook Terrace. The 17W means that it is between 17 and 18 miles west of State St. The mile is divided up into 1000 numbers, so that it is about 17.73 miles west of State St. (BTW, 22nd St is an extension of Cermack Rd, 2200 S in Chicago). Addresses on North-South Streets measure north or south of (sometimes virtual) Madison St., giving addresses such as 2S255 or 0N122.
These addresses have been known to wreck havoc with various customer database software systems which didn't allow for embedded letters in building numbers.
-- Ed Sachs
I always knew people in DuPage County were strange, but sheeesh... lol
-- David
Chicago, IL
Of course, to appreciate the full scale of Chicago's massive street grid, one must fly into O'Hare on a clear winter night, with a window seat on the left-hand side of the plane. I hate flying with a passion, but when I have to fly, the arial view of Chicago at night is simply breathtaking. I've seen it dozens of times now, but I still get goosebumps (and sometimes even a lump in my throat) whenever I see it again. It's almost like some futuristic city on another world like you would expect to see in a science fiction movie.
New York at night is a spectacular sight in itself, but it has a very fragmented appearance from the air. This is due to the fact that the city is composed mostly of islands, and there is a large patchwork of different street grids that all come together at crazy angles.
Not so with Chicago. Imagine a city roughly the size of New York in terms of land area, but all located on the same land mass and all sharing a single street grid. The grid is utterly relentless, and it appears to stretch forever. The only things that dare break the grid are the branches of the river, a handful of diagonal streets, railroads, and expressways (all of which converge at the nerve center of the city, at the foot of the Loop's great mass of skyscrapers)... And then the lake.
The density of the city increases greatly as it gets closer to the lakefront, so much so that there is almost a continuous wall of skyscrapers all along the lakefront. But once it reaches the lake, it just stops. Period. Nothing but pitch-blackness to the east. There is something almost religious about it that cannot be described in words; you just have to see it yourself.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It is interesting to note that while Chicago's streets have always been on a nearly-perfect grid, the numbering system did not take advantage of that grid until 1909! Up to then, there were THREE different numbering systems, for the North, South, and West Divisions.
IIRC:
*South Division (south of the Main Branch of the Chicago River and east of the South Branch) addresses increased as you headed south from the river and west from the lake.
*North Division (north of the Main Branch and east of the North Branch) numbers increased as you went north from the river and east from the river.
*West Division (west of the North and South Branches) had addresses that increased as you went farther north or south from Lake Street and as you went farther west of the river.
And since neither the river nor the lakeshore are straight, two buildings on the same corner on parallel streets could have totally different numbers -- the NE corner of State and Randolph could have had a different address than the NE corner of State and Jackson, though State is due north-south and Randolph and Jackson are parallel east-west. In short, AAAARGH!!
Mind you, with some of the people on this board who favor 100-year-old names for L and subway lines, and deride color or letter/number names for lines, they would probably want Chicago to go back to the old address system because it's the original, historical, "true and honest" numbering system. Sorry for the rant, but this is one of my pet peeves: line names exist for the convenience of passengers, who include tourists, business visitors, and newcoming residents, and NOT for the sake of nostalgic railfans! NYC can't use color names, because there aren't enough distinctive colors. But Chicago can and does, and NYC uses letters and numbers in place of the old names based on the street the line runs on or its destination neighborhood. The fact that Chicago's L or New York's subway is a 100+ year old system doesn't mean that it has to be an obscure puzzle for anyone who hasn't earned the merit badge of living here "long enough". "Blue" or "N" may signify nothing inspiring or historic to a railfan, but "Congress" or "Sea Beach" means nothing AT ALL to a lot more people.
EXCUSE ME! I can't exactly say that the color names say a lot about where a line goes, but the old line names certainly do. I disagree with both the color names and the new roll signs which only say the destination and not the name of the entire line. Plus, using the name "Forest Park" for the Congress is stupid; there's more than one stop in Forest Park, and it doesen't tell people where the end of the line is actually located. It should still be called Desplaines Av. The Douglas goes through the Douglas Park area.
Lake/Englewood/Jackson Park also makes a lot of sense except for the fact that the 63rd St. "L" no longer goes to Jackson Park (aargh, damn CTA...). It still sounds much better than "Green Line" though.
I could care less about ease of use. The system doesen't have any express/local setups and barely has any branches. It was very easy in the first place!
One of the excuses for the termination of the A/B skip-stop service was ease of use for visitors. But they didn't take into account the day-to-day commuters. The North-South is much slower than it used to be.
-Jacob
"This is Jackson/State, transfer for the West-Northwest Congress/Douglas/O'Hare"
"Congress" doesn't say much about where the train goes either, unless you recall the trivia-show factoid that the Eisenhower Expressway was originally the Congress Expressway. Calling the line the Congress branch is like the old joke where a farmer tells a lost motorist to turn where the old Wilson house used to be.
I do have to admit that the old geographic names were at least better than what the CTA tried as a "rationalization" of line names before the colors: "West-Northwest", "West-South," "North-South." The "West" of the West-Northwest was not the same as the "West" of the West-South, and the "South" of the North-South wasn't the same as the "South" of the West-South (at least after the Dan Ryan line was opened in 1969). It was actually more confusing than helpful. What was the Ravenswood called under that cockamamie scheme, anyway? The "North"?
[ What was the Ravenswood called under that
cockamamie scheme, anyway? The "North"? ]
It was just called "Ravenswood".
And prior to the Dan Ryan line opening in 1969, the Lake St. L was
called "Lake".
-- Ed Sachs
I agree - it's very east to get around Chicago thanks to the grid system. Some of the numbered streets have been renamed. The portion of 69th St. which runs through Marquette Park is known as Lithuanian Plaza Court. One street which I can't remember at the moment is known as Pope John Paul II Drive or Way in honor of the pontiff's 1979 visit.
I always opt for a left hand window seat when flying from Denver to New York and a right hand window seat on the return trip just to get a glance at Chicago from 6-7 miles up. Not to mention follow the Toll Road through Indiana...
Denver has a similar north-south grid system which extends well past the city limits. The only exception is downtown, which has a diagonal grid system. Denver was originally founded on the banks of the South Platte River, which flows from southwest to northeast at that point, and the first streets were laid out in parallel to the river. As a general rule, STREETS run north-south as well as on the diagonal grid. AVENUES run east-west. Some of the major north-south arterials are designated as boulevards. Broadway is the dividing east-west point while Ellsworth Ave. is the north-south dividing point. Interestingly, Ellsworth is not a major thoroughfare. In the east-west scheme, there are 16 blocks per mile as opposed to 8 blocks per mile going north-south.
R-38GOH. The old NYC Transit System logo on the front is a nice touch. And a nice job was done with the LCD-based train letter sign on the front ... using the outline of the former signs, it doesn't look nearly as naked as the R-32s.
--Mark
There is no contest: The Bluebirds!
That is a real "eye of the beholder" question, and will reflect one's bias--there is a big temptation to choose very smooth looking designs on the one hand, or odd futuristic designs on the other. However, I would kind of break it down by categories, all very subjective.
Cars with an agreeable appearance
BMT Standard, R68, CTA "New Look" 2000 series L cars
Cars with a modern flair
Bluebird, PATH car, R11
Cars which are kind of odd, but grow on you
Green Hornet
the best looking cars in my opinion are the ones that were destroyed in crashes. Transit agrees since after every major "accident" they promptly announce how they need billions of dollars in more financial aid.
R-38's for me.
REDBIRDS AND ALL CARS R 38 ( ORIGINAL LIGHTS AND COLORS )
THE PHILADELPHIA 1928 BROAD STREET CARS
THE R 1-9 PRE WORLD WAR 2 CARS R-33-36 WF CARS ORIGINAL LIGHT BLUE COLORS ....
FINALLY ALL SUBWAY CARS BEFORE THE SLANT R-40 !!!!!
The BMT Bluebird is my all time favorite for both its interior and exterior appearance.
I also liked the D-Type Triplex and BMT Standards. I don't think I ever would have become a railfan if it wasn't for those cars.
www.bmt-lines.com
I'd agree with you on the R-68's but the DC Metro cars?
IMHO, outside of NYC it would be:
1)1992 London Tube stock
2)LA Breda Red Line cars
3)Philly's M-4s
4)MBTA Bombardier 1800s
5)Chicago 3200s
6)MUNI Breda LRVs
7)TTC Scarborough cars
8)DC Metro
9)1995 London Tube stock
10)Dallas DART LRV's
In NYC:
1)R-68
2)R-110B
3)R-40
4)R-62
5)R-110A
6)R-42
7)R-46
8)PA-4(PATH)
9)M-1 LIRR engine
10)R-40M
I prefer stainless steel cars. Older cars have class but are usually drab looking and my list only includes cars currently active. I think the Low-V's, R-1's and Almond Joys were nice looking, too.
Outside of NYC I would go for the CTA cars used on the Midway line - I don't know the type number or anything but they're the stainless-steel or aluminum fluted-side cars with very nice interiors. Although in NYC I think the redbirds are pretty good looking myself
Those would be the 3200-series cars.
The B division Train Operators & Conductors begins their pick of jobs for late April 2000 implimentation on Jan. 30, 2000. As far as the public is concerned, no changes. B/D/F/N trains will still terminate at Stillwell, unless the TA shoves a supplement schedule down the employees throats once the pick starts! Translation: you don't work what you picked! Maybe (and it makes more sense to me) the rehab project will start after Labor Day. From my observation, the work programs are a WIN WIN situation for the TA. The jobs have been tightened up on the E & F for example. They will get more productivity, and the crews get more cab time! And less recovery time when you arrive late at the terminal because less time is built in! Less time for lunch, if you have time to eat! I thought a break for lunch was a NY State labor dept. rule. You give it up in the TA for the good of the service!
I thought the MTA made a big concession to the train operators by putting cup holders on the consoles of the R142's. When late running trains cut into scheduled lunch hours, I think supervision should provide a nice picnic basket for each crew member affected. Soup, salad, hot freshly carved turkey on whole wheat bread, fruit, and bottled water.
That must be the reason why new trains can be operated with one hand! Eat with the other one!
I thought the cup holder was for a "Little Johnny" cup. The one you use to relieve yourself in....
I don't think there is a law mandating a lunch period. In the NYPD the meal hour is considered a privilege that can be taken away at any time depending on the need of the Dept and how busy it is.
With my wife spending the weekend at her parents and the weather finally over 32 degrees today I thought it would be a great day to take my 3 yr old son Arthur to the city. We arrived at Mineola at 2:25. Arthur said he wanted to ride a diesel so we passed up the 2:29, an M1-3 for the 2:41 from Oyster Bay. Got on the tri-level. (or as my son calls it, the upstairs downstairs train) For some reason there were only 3 cars behind the loco instead of the usual 4. I thought they came in pairs but I guess they are singles. Changed at Jamaica for Flatbush Av and of course tried to find the old Woodhaven Station in the extreme dark! From Flatbush took the "D" over the bridge to Grand/Christie. We wasted our trek to the head of the platform at Atlantic, it was a full length cab with no Railfan window. At Grand St we got off and walked the long walk to Katz's Deli on Houston for some hotdogs. (almost as good as Nathan's) From Katz we decided to take the S.I. Ferry. Even though the M15 to S.Ferry is right there we decided to take the train. Took the "F" from 2Av one stop to Bway to get the IRT only to find signs saying the "6" is not running and the IRT station closed. Running back to the IND we caught the Queensbridge Shuttle one stop to W4 and grabbed a downtown "A". We got off at Chambers, changed for the IRT and got off at Wall Street where we took the M1 bus to S.Ferry. As we got on the ferry thats when I realized I left the baby's bag containing some extra clothes and toys somewhere, probably Katz's!! The ferry ride was great. I probably rode it thousands of times in my life but I don't ever remember riding it at sundown with a rainbow of colors in the background. It was cold though. I was very proud that Arthur knew the Statue Of Liberty by name. Back in Manhattan we took the M15 back to Katz's to see if Arthur's bag was there. Luckily it was!!! We then took the M15 back to S.Ferry where we caught an "N" (R-32's) at Whitehall St for Pacific Street. At Pacific we caught the LIRR, the 8:04 to Far Rock. Changing at Jamaica we had a choice of 2 trains to Mineola, a Ronkonkoma electric or an Oyster Bay Tri-level 4 minutes later. I sure you can guess what we took. Finally we got back to Mineola. At least my car started!!!
Hmmm... my grandchildren will be here in May for a few days and I was thinking about taking Alex (he'll be three by then) up to the City to ride a slant so he can watch out the window. But your post is making me have second thoughts! (Besides, I'm not entirely sure my daughter would let me - she thinks the entire city is like the South Bronx was in 1968.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Take him. I take Arthur on the trains at least twice a month. He loves it. Today was fun, even with Murphy's Law. I'm thinking of taking him again tomorrow as my wife is still away at her moms.
Then take your daughter, too!
--Mark
At what point did he go to sleep in your lap ? My six year old grandson still likes to climb inside my robe on Sunday mornings while we watch Tarzan (he won't watch it any other time). Isn't life great.
Back on topic ... he got to stand inside the cab the last time he rode the LIRR.
Mr t__:^)
Did Arthur start getting cranky and/or silly at any point? That's what usually happens to Robbie around the third or fourth hour. More than a few times I've had to carry him asleep off a train and up several flights of stairs- Park Place is the worst! Of course, I can't keep him out THAT late; my wife would have kittens. (She never leaves town without us, anyway.)
Call me whipped, but we often base our expeditions on where he wants to go or what train he wants to ride. PATH to Newark, any route with Slants, and lately, the 'crazy', i.e. articulated buses are his usual requests. Thanks to the unlimited Metrocard, bathroom needs or impulse trips to another part of town are seldom a problem. FINDING a bathroom can be a challenge; I've worked into my brain's database a listing of hotels and bookstores around the city that have them.
I will, however, be very glad when the snow and cold end. Walking has become a Kamikaze mission. Doesn't anyone clean the sidewalks by station entrances- or bus stops?? Besides, when the weather is good, we try to work a park into our gallivanting. Prospect, Clove Lake and the Fort Tryon/Inwood complex have become our favorites.
Hopefully, the remaining models with railfan windows will still be in service by the time our sons are tall enough to reach them. Just imagine their reaction to the Jamaica Bay trestle, the CPW express, or 'Hardball Alley' from the front of an R-38.
After some considerable searching, I found my R-42 'O' gauge subway cars. I was able to acquire, with some difficulty, the original 4-car set with the blue stripe & the two car add-on plus the set without the blue stripe & the add-ons.
Now I need help!!! I'm looking for layout ideas. I have some but can use help. I'm looking at approximately 14 X 20 foot area in my basement. Here's are my working ideas. Layout will be:
1) Out and back with a two track terminal. There will be a typical
NYCT Subay arrangement ala 207th St. into a small yard.
2) Continuous route for operation when I have guests.
3) Portion of the mainline will be two track with operation over 'Hellsgate Br.' (Bridge is about 32" long.
4) Branch commuter line for operation of a doodlebug
5) Long mainline - not too much switching and not to look like a bowl of spaghetti
Now - for those whose ideas I use, I will send you a copy of the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual" ( which has been selling on ebay for $75.00 and up)
Please E-mail your drawings to me. I don't think Dave needs his space taken up with trackplans.
Thanks for your help
Ahh, I don't know about layout, but try to get a controller from a scrapped subway car to work it all :)
Way ahead of you Philip - way ahead of you!!!!!
...or at least a ZW transformer.
Why don't you try the Model SubTalk board that is accessed through the Transfer Station on this site. There's lots of discussion about modeling rapid transit.
My recommendation for those O gauge subway cars by MTH to use at least 42 radius curves. I'm using 72 radius curves and those babies take take the turns beauitfully without derailing. Of course tighter curves will have to run at a lower operating speed. I ran my MTH NYCT cars on my brothers setup with 31 rad curves and it operated fine except for a few times when they've been operated alittle to fast and flew off the curves
Thanks for the tip. Of course I already purchased 300' of gargraves Phantom flex track. I only envision one place where a tight curve might be necessary. Of course I'm still in the planning stage. Which set did you get - pre or post overhaul? I ran the Silver ones once and immediately put all my N scale trains up for sale on ebay. BTW: Does anyone have any idea what 10 year old Kaydee cars are bringing? A whole other story..........
I sure do - it varies considerably from car to car, but you can probably pay for a lot of track with what you'll get.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the news, it is said that a possible hate crime occurred on Boston's Orange Line with six high school students (from the dreaded Boston High) assaulting one student for being "gay." This seems to be extremely shocking enough, but I would not be surprised that some major crime would happen at that line yet again.
I must also note that those high school students do loiter inside the station just before school starts, and there were several incidents at that particular station entrance/exit, including a killing there six and a half years ago. I narrowly escaped it by fate, as I took a bus home instead of the subway that fateful day.
Nick
And this disgrace that's one step away from being run by the Department of Corrections gets the honor of being named after the great city it's in.
I've set up a Forgotten NY message board for Forgotten Fans worldwide. Check it out and be the first on your block to post at:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Forgottenboard/forgottenboard.html
Great idea! However, none of the postings are showing up on the forgottenboard.html page, even after I made a posting myself and reloaded the page. Assuming the message index is supposed to appear on the forgottenboard.html page, make sure the page is CHMOD-ed to 755 (world-writable), and the paths specified within the CGI script are correct.
(I tried to set up WWWBoard for my own page, but gave it up in favor of WebBBS. WebBBS can be found at http://awsd.com/scripts/webbbs/.)
Good luck,
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>Great idea! However, none of the postings are showing up on the forgottenboard.html page,
even after I made a posting myself and reloaded the page. Assuming the message index is
supposed to appear on the forgottenboard.html page, make sure the page is CHMOD-ed to 755
(world-writable), and the paths specified within the CGI script are correct. <<<
I've noticed I can't see the posts. I have no idea what the problem is; I contacted Advanced Web Creations tech support. Dunno what CHMOD, 755, word-writable or CGI script mean. I'm no techie...
Kevin--- perhaps the problem with the Forgottenboard could be solved simply by changing its name to Rememberedboard
If I did a site called Remembered NY it would be all Rudy, Gotti, Trump, Streisand and Pearlman. Yeccchhhhh
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah, I was think about starting a site:
fuhgettaboutit-ny.com
but if it was true to its name, no one would want to visit.
What else do you think should be on such a site?
'chmod' is a little command (UNIX in nature) that makes files accessible by the world (777) or invisible to all but root (000).
format is 'chmod 777 [filename]', or in your case 'chmod 755 [filename]'. How it works in the scheme of your message board, I am not sure. But I DO know what it is. You probably have to put a line in your CGI script to 'chmod' the message being posted.
Wayne
The URL Kevin posted seems to take you to the new post page, not the message page.
It would seem you can get to the messages page (to read them) at this URL: http://www.forgotten-ny.com/forgottenboard/forgottenboard.
Let's get some discussions started!
It works with Internet Explorer, but with Netscape (v 4.7, which I think is the latest) it gives only a text listing of the page's HTML code. I think Netscape needs to have filenames end in .html or .htm, otherwise it only displays raw text and won't render the page.
I experienced the exact same problem.
Wayne
Likewise, with Netscape 4.71 (tried the link)
>>>with Netscape (v 4.7, which I think is the latest) it gives only a
text listing of the page's HTML code. I think Netscape needs to have filenames end in .html or .htm,
otherwise it only displays raw text and won't render the page. <<<
Thing is, the forgottenboard page does end with html:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Forgottenboard/forgottenboard.html
I'll be consulting the Advanced Web Creations techies with the problem this week...
Thing is, the forgottenboard page does end with html
But that is the posting page, not the messages page, which is what people expect to start with.
The messages page is apparently generated on the fly, and is not being given an "htm" extension when returned to the user's browser.
Yesterday, I observed Pitkin R32s on the E line,and was told that there was a consist running around with two R38s. I also observed a solid train of R38s on the B. I didn't notice any R44s in Queens.
That one with the two R-38s sounds like the R-32GE have made it to Queens.
Good thing this is January. I think there are a couple of people who would go nuclear if this was July and they had to take the R-32GE on the E to Roosevelt and then changed for an R-33WF single to Flushing.
mike knows the difference between the R38 and the R32GE! Pitkin mixes M/K R32's with R38GE's on a regular basis.
It is interesting to note that i was on ABC with Ed Koch february 1994 and several months later the bombing took place. I stated that the best place to get in trouble at new york transit was to refuse to kill the passengers. that night when i got to stillwell to start the midnight shift it seemed that everyone had heard my discussion with the former mayor. I stated this based on my years of working there. As a matter of fact former transit president dave gunn once told me dont worry about getting fired from them they are too stupid to fire you. Anyone who did not hear me on ABC can find some documentation at workers comp where all my commmendations were ruled to be violations and therefore evidence that i had previous medical problems before i was shot.
Was the R62 or R62A involved the only 62/62A to have a black floor? I saw one on the 6 a few months ago at 125 Street going southbound. I didn't see any marks on it. It was the operating motor and I saw the side with the T/O operating position.
It was R62 #1491 on #4 line & some of R62A have black floors but don't remember the numbers.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Oppp wrong number it #1391 not #1491.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I believe you saw #1696. That is the only R62A I know of that has a black floor. It may have been involved in some sort of incident as it had been laid up for some time.
Wayne
I have a picture of Metro-North F40PH-2CAT #4191. Let me know if you want it. 4192 is still at last report on Hoboken Terminal at the paint shops. And hopefully the NJT and MN sections in Grand Central are updated soon.
I was recently in Boston and I had the opportunity to enjoy their transit system, which unfortunately doesn' have a website as extensive as ours.
But I was wondering how everyone would compare the two systems.
Hmm, well, perhaps you should visit NETRANSIT sort of a nycsubway.org for Boston. Given the comparitive sizes between NYC and Boston's transit systems, I'd say that site is smaller than us but just as good!
-Dave
Saturday the Pelham Line was filled with mostly Redbirds on the road with only 5 Silvers. The R29'S,and R36'S seemed to have taken over the Pelham Line Yesterday. Most of the R62A'S where layed up in the Front of the yard. There was about 17 R62A'S layed up and only 2 Redbirds in the Yard. I never seen so many R62A'S layed up during the day! A another T/O told me the SUPT order most of the Redbirds to be in service. The only thing I can think of is that the Redbirds have more heat then the R62A'S. Well I wanted to take a R 36 down the road but I was suck with all cold R62A'S on my trips.
Well Happy redbird railfanning on the Pelham Line!
Enjoy it before the R 142'S come over.
wait a minute !!! i thought you subtalkers said THAT THE R 62 AND NEWER CARS ARE THE
BEST EVER BUILT !!!
Well I for one never said that! I know lot of others did. All I hope is that the R142 has better heating then the R62A'S.
The reason that the Redbirds are running this weekend is because one cold day they had ABD'S in the morning because they failed to charge. So the Supt has them running to avoid this problem.
Thanks for the Info.
Now if the 4 Line was like this...
Actually they DO have a small flock of Redbirds for the #4 - R33 #9220 thru #9305 (#9225 with odd mate #9130 belongs to the #2). These, unfortunately, only run on weekdays during normal (daytime) hours.
It would be nice to get some of these 'Birds out on the #4 on weekends.
Wayne
There was one redbird running in woodlawn service today
Only one? Oh well....out of 84 total cars...there's enough to field at least three or maybe four sets for weekend service. How many does the #4 run in normal Saturday service?
Wayne
Was on a #4 redbird Sunday about 1100 hours, did not get numbers. Road from Bedford park to Boro Hall.
I have seen Redbirds on the #4 on Sundays. One followed me from Woodlawn to 167th St a few weeks back.
--Mark
The R33 pair, 9218-9219, is also on #4.
Chaohwa
Yes, and don't forget 9216-17. 9214-9215 were originally of the 4, but were transferred to the 2, about two years ago.
-Stef
What about 9212-9115?
R36Gary
They are on #2.
Chaohwa
Took the E from Chambers to Jay St-Boro Hall yesterday to connect with the F.
Some observations:
1) The train I caught was a solid 10 car set of R-38s w/ car 3971 in the lead rest of consist(front to back) was as follows: 3970,4021-20, 4138-39, 4086-87, and 4025-24.
2) While waiting for the E, it's Queens-bound counterpart to Jamaica Center was a mix of 2 R-38's and 8 R-32s. (Couldn't get the #'s but probably the same units used on the A line.) The R38's were in the lead.
3) At Jay Street, spotted 2 R-46 E trains (1 in each direction).
Additional observations:
1) Both at Chambers and Jay the standard black-on-white temporary platform-edge signs used now for long-term service disruptions(Willy B 99, Lenox '98 etc.) have not been installed. Instead a lot of service flyers were posted on the columns.
2) Plenty of loudspeaker announcements about the E revision which were audible for a change.
3) The R-46 side signs had "E-8th AVE/FULTON LCL" on display with the destination message "EUCLID AVE". The R-32 and R-38 signage diplays showing Euclid as the soutehrn terminal were also correct although the route display only had "E-Queens Blvd/8th Avenue".
4) Ridership on the new extension appeared to be about the same as the usual C ridership on the weekends with standard turnover for the A express at Chambers Street. Although now patrons have 10-cars of train to spread out upon boarding.
So far so good, but the real test will happen come Monday morning starting at 6 AM when the operations people will have to contend with the usual nonsense from end-to-end in terms of delays, heavy traffic, confused passengers etc. etc.
Trust me. The E Line will benifit everyon eon Fulton. The'll want it back when it leaves. Tight headways. At least tighter than the C Line. More cars per train. 10 to 8. The only people affected will be the people usually riding the C between 50 Street and 59 Street. But you can solve that problem. Take the E to 7th Avenue, walk across the platform and take a B. That easy. For riders north of 145, get off at any express stop and take an A. No big deal. Just wait for another train.
>>>>No big deal. Just wait for another train.<<<<
No big deal, except if you are used to a one seat ride.....
Peace,
Andee
Running the E express on 8th Avenue, and having the C go local to WTC, would be a big benefit to Brooklyn. The only losers would be those at Spring Street and 23rd Street, who would have to wait longer for the C then they now do for the E or C. You could run the E local and merge it in instead of the E, but that doen't give you the full benefit of avoiding the switch at Canal -- still two mergers instead of one.
But this service pattern requires more trains, and the TA does not have more trains.
Just out of curiosity, what signs were the R-46s showing on Queens-bound trains? "E/8th Ave. local-Queens Exp.", perhaps?
Yes.
I was unable to get a good look at the Northbound E at Jay,train since a southbound E pulled in at almost the same time. I would say that it would be about right.
Nope. "8th Ave/Fulton Local" only.
Whoops. Made a boo-boo. You're correct. I was referring to Euclid Ave-bound E trains.
Any motormen here?
Just a few question about two handle and single handle controllers.
The two handle controllers are easier to operate? Them seem to be less
ergonomic. The operator seems to have their left hand suspended in the air.
The brake handle must be hard to turn too.From what I understand,
the full service is all the way down and there doesn't seem like there is much elbow room.
The single controller seems more ergonomical. When the train finally stops, most operators have the handle in the min. brake position.
Is this the same way to operate the air braking system in buses and trucks? Build up pressure then release before the stop to cushion the stop?
Do some systems have a "Lag" or is it "Lap" position
Is this the same systems used on most commuter trains?
Modern air brake systems do not have a lap position. you determine the value of a brake pipe reduction simply by watching the ER (Equalizing reservior) gauge and moving the handle until the ER gauge shows the proper reduction then leaving the handle in that position. In a short time the BP (Brake pipe) gauge pressure will duplicate the ER pressure. This is the operation of a SELF LAPPING brake valve. On an older brake valve, you place the handle into service position until the desired reduction shows up on the ER gauge then you move the handle to LAP position to hold the reduction. BP will duplicate ER the same as the self lapping valve. The word LAP originated from the fact that the rotary valve discs used in brake valves were ground perfectly flat against a surface plate with abrasive paste in a process called LAPPING. In lap position, all passages thru the brake valve are supposed to be closed and a leaky rotary valve would be most apparent.
But if you come to your friendly trolley museum for operator training this season (plug, plug!) we'll teach you all about how to LAP straight air brakes on a trolley. It takes some practice, but after you get the hang of it, you'll be able to stop the car right on the mark!
Sounds liks fun. BTW I just replaced the Type S, Form L1 GE motormans valve on my GE 23 tonner with a 26 NL system. that old (SL1) svstem is identical to that on a straight air trolley.
The SL1 valve was being used as the independent or the train
brake valve?
The Type S, Form L1 motormans valve is a straight air valve. In locomotives straight air almost always deals with the independent brake. there was no automatic on the unit until I put the upgraded system on it.
Nice Plug, I'm planning to and I'm going to LAP IT UP!!
(Ugh, did I just type that?)
lets see the HOUSTION OLILERS vs THE LOS ANGELES ( los angeles memorial coliseum ) RAMS !!
not the DISNEYLAND RAMS ?? or st louis CARDNALS -i mean rams !!!!?????? whatt..........??????
oh well !! NOW THE LOS ANGELES METRO M.T.A. BUYS UP THE UNION PACIFIC SANTA FE
RAILROAD RIGHT OF WAYS AROUND THE LOS ANGELES MEMORIAL COLISUEM !!!
the signs say no tresspasing mta right of way !!! ( these rusted signs have been there for 10 years )
maybe the rams will come back if the light rail is built ???? ......... HOLD YOUR BREATH !!!!
Get off it. The webmaster does not maintain this site for football talk. Stick to transit topics only.
Willie IS ON topic He merely stated that if a light rail line is built to the LA Coliseum, the NFL might see fit to put a team there again. THIS TOPIC POLICE GARBAGE IS RUINING THIS BOARD.
FOLKS PLEASE !! I didnt want to throw GARBAGE on anybody just tell it like it is
"" THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES # 4 rusted mta rail right of way signs
around the former LOS ANGELES RAMS COLISEUM home ( used to be ) .......
these old 10 year rusted NO TRESSPASSING ??? signs ?? give me a break !!!! thank you ...
Speaking of the Superbowl in ol' Atlanta, MARTA is going to get a work out tonight, since parking has been jacked up to $66 AN HOUR (minimum 4 HOURS!) Check www.superbowl.com to see for yourself.
MARTA did the smart thing with the Bankhead line and made it terminate at Vine City, just before the Omni/Dome station. It would be hell to see everyone trying to jam into a two car train.
[since parking has been jacked up to $66 AN HOUR (minimum 4 HOURS)]
Well, not quite. That quote was the regular cost of *renting a Limo*. And today, the minumum was 10 hours!
Whatever the rate, MARTA is truly a better deal at $1.50!
oops, you're right, I read it wrong.
Which signal system do you like better? The old IRT or the new IRT signals? I like the old ones better because it seems like the ones used on mainline railroads and looks like PATH signals.
What do you think?
The railroad-style signals which were originally used on the IRT,
until replaced by the BMT (& IND) style block/route signals,
are superior. They are more confusing, but they allow the
display of aspects such as Approach Medium to give you advance
warning of an upcoming diverging route. Then again, the IRT never
used those aspects, and they considered R over G to mean
clear diverging route, not medium clear.
How does a motorman know what train to drive that day(do they go to a yard or do they find out some other way),where do they go to report to work, and what do they do for their midday break?
All trainoperators have an assigned place and time to report. They find out from the dispatcher which train they will operate. In passenger service, there is a work program with all schedules of all the lines. It shows the reporting times of the trainoperators and conductors. Also have the leaving and arrival times at the terminals and the lunch breaks. Brian
The schedules have break times at all terminals. In a Yard job, trainoperators sit around waiting for the dispatcher to give them work.
I have been hearing rumors that there was once a plan to extend the 2 from its terminal at Flatbush and Nostrand. If so, would it go down Nostrand or Flatbush avenue.
The original concept for the Nostrand Avenue Line had it continuing down Nostrand to Avenue W. That's why the Flatbush Avenue station has side platforms - it wasn't intended to be the terminal.
According to the IND Second System plan, an elevated extension from Flatbush/Nostrand was planned, terminating at Vorhies Ave.
According to the '1968 PLAN FOR ACTION'subway expantion proposal,the IRT was to travel down FLATBUSH AV.along with an UTICA AV. route to KINGS HWY. Further plans had the 14th st line traveling along the LIRR BAY RIDGE LINE to the Flatbush/Nostrand juction for transfers,along with train from the west[6 ave/Cluver/Bay Ridge via Mc Donald ave tunnel to Bay Ridge line]
That 1968 would have been both practical and reasonable considering the Bay Ridge ROW is still there and is underutilized.
BTW, as of 1991 there was a new plan of using the Bay Ridge Line in conjuntion with the Flatbush IRT. Unfortunately it did not involve passenger service. Rather, the idea called for extending the IRT 3 blocks south to the Bay Ridge line and then run them down east to Linden Shops which would have been turned into an additional A Division storage yard. I believe this plan is still in consideration. Obviously this plan would make for addtional rush-hour trains on the 2/5 possible -- as well as easier re-routing of disabled equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
I'd like to see the Bay Ridge LIRR used for some kind of new subway service. Perhaps it's ROW can be used as an extension of the 2/5 line, running to the Linden shops, thus providing new service to East Flatbush.
Lemme guess, NIMBY, right?
I don't think the NIMBYs would be as much of a problem there, since we are talking about an already-dug hole that could probably use the clean-up the creation of passenger service would provide.
The problem is the line runs at almost perpendicular to the direction all the other subway lines are points (towards the downtown Brooklyn area), so only a short extension off the current Nostrand line would make sense.
The ROW for the LIRR Bay Ridge line is only a few hundred feet south of the Flatbush Avenue station. It is between Avenues H & I at Nostrand Avenue. An extension to East Flatbush, perhaps to Utica or Remsen Avenue would make sense. As far as NIMBY is concerned, a clean newly laid road bed would be a lot better that the garbage strewn, rat-infested eyesore that is currently there.
Peace and God Bless
Actually it's not as bad as you make it out to be. I walked the line with another SubTalker back in November. We went east from Glenwood near Utica Ave. all the way to the East New York Tunnel portal with the high-level platform (I took some pictures of the trip). There was little garbage until we got to the New Lots/Brownsville area (where it becomes a cut -- allowing for an accumulation of debris). There were auto skeletons and a boxcar w/o trucks over near the Pitkin Ave. overpass.
Unfortunately, much of the road ties were in horrendous condition and could only handle speeds of 10-20 mph at the most. Alot of the ties looked like they hadn't been replaced since the LIRR ran regular passenger service there (1924).
Doug aka BMTman
Pre-1924 passenger service must have rural in every sense. I don't think that era was built up till after WWII except in Brownsville.
www.forgotten-ny.com
if one were to continue your walk the line parallels the "l" line
and i believe a single line goes under ground for some distance
towards the bushwick terminal, this can be seen on topagraphical maps
a line leaving the bushwick terminal heads toward the "L" line ,but i,m not sure if they ever met under ground, perhaps once when the line was above ground.
eventually the line goes thru freshpond junction, skirts sunnyside yards, goes past la gardia with a wisperand makes a break for the bronx and points north ,northeast ....
it would be a great core for connections to both n.y. airports with many possibilities to all boro,s and the island.
There have been proposals to use the Bay Ridge ROW as a light rail line that would serve as a feeder to all intersecting subway lines.
There was a proposal to create an elevated highway that would have run above the ROW. That finally died in 1982, I believe.
There is a proposal to extend the tracks of the 2/5 lines from the Flatbush/Nostrand station into the Bay Ridge ROW for use as a turning area (not a loop) to increase throughput in that terminal. Supposedly preliminary studies for it are supposed to start in this capital plan with construction of it taking place in the next capital plan.
--Mark
The highway (Cross-Brooklyn Expressway) was supposed to be in an open cut and died in 1971 (not 1982).
Pardon me for my ignorance but what is ROW and NIMBY? I have seen it and haven't a clue what they mean. Someone please enlighten me.
ROW = right of way
NIMBY = "not in my back yard," ie. activists who try to stop things because it would (or even could) change conditions near them.
Thanks Larry. I felt like a moron every time I read something with those initials mentioned. Now if I can just rtemember them.
Here is another term to remember:
PC- Politically correct:
You dont say Motor Man but Train Operator
You dont sya Police Man or Police Woman but Police Officer.
Try calling a female flight attendant a "stewardess". Coming home from Puerto Rico 2 years ago I used that word, and the "flight attendant" gave me an attitude. So the next time I saw her, serving coffee, I remembered not to call her "stewerdess". I used the word "waitress".
Mr. R16 does NOT do PC. He says whatever the hell he wants.
As A former Flight Attendent You deserved to served last. I hated the name Steward.
Steward roots from old English and Saxon, means sty warden, or keeper of pigs. This is not meant as a put down of either the server or servee, just what was.
That's too bad. But if someone calls you that with no malice or insult intended, then you don't need to get all huffy.
Don't think so negatively. There are no NIMBY's YET since this is only a proposal and his not gone past the theory stage. So far as I know there have been no EIS, or ULURP reports submitted on this proposal either.
Actually the NIMBYs could in fact turn out to be the rail-freight clients along the Bay Ridge Line and not residents.
The ROW already exists and is used a few days a week, so no one can complain about rail traffic. However, if it was to be used by NYCT for in-revenue service the added traffic could upset freight delivery schedules for the various businesses along the line (particularly in the East New York/Brownsville Industrial corridor).
Doug aka BMTman
[The ROW already exists and is used a few days a week, so no one can complain about rail traffic. However, if it was to be used by NYCT for in-revenue service the added traffic could upset freight delivery schedules for the various businesses along the line (particularly in the East New York/Brownsville Industrial corridor).]
Wouldn't there also be FRA issues?
Maybe that's one of the holdups.
I would think that if the NYCT either wanted to use part of the Bay Ridge for even just layups of 2/5 trains there would have to be approvable by FRA, or otherwise the ROW would have to be sectioned off where at least one track would be designated strictly for New York & Atlantic freight (or LIRR diesel operations). The NYCT trackage would then not have to fall under FRA standards.
Doug aka BMTman
01/30/2000
That brings up another question. Since the LIRR no longer runs freight on the ex-LIRR Bay Ridge Branch, and the New York and Atlantic now does, who owns this right of way? The LIRR? the NY&A?,
The City of New York?
Bill Newkirk
Just a guess but I would say the LIRR.
Here's the kicker (from what I was told by an NY&A Rep.): The LIRR OWNS the right-of-way, but has LEASED the line to New York & Atlantic Railway. That means all upkeep -- cleaning of debris, re-ballasting, or replacement of the horrendous ties -- is the responsibility of the leaser. In this way the LIRR makes out like a bandit: they get the bucks for leasing the Bay Ridge, but w/o the need for them to worry about the routine maintenance that comes with provding for an aged railroad line.
But since the LIRR is the OWNER, I would think that any proposals by the NYCT would first have to go through their "sister" organization. Of course the NY&A might not have a say-so in whatever decision the LIRR makes on the use of the Bay Ridge since their just leasing the line.
It would be interesting, however, to see if indeed the FRA would allow mixed-use traffic of the Bay Ridge right-of-way (electrified rapid transit and rail-freight).
Doug aka BMTman
The LIRR owns it. It leases to Atlantic.
The real question is, since it is an "active" rail line, would there have to be an EIS, and environmental lawsuits, if service increased?
Let's say the fantasy tunnel is built. It won't be able to handle double stacks, just TOFC, they've decided. No way long range train traffic would justify the cost of moving the boxes across the water by train and putting them on a truck, instead of putting them on a truck in NJ. The tunnel advocates don't admit that, hey, you end up with a truck in any event.
The only way it would pay is if trucks drove onto trains in Jersey for a relaxing trip without the traffic and toll, a la the Chunnel. But that would mean lots of trains, and they'd have to blast through Midwood at 30 to 40 mile per hour to make it pay vs. just driving over.
The only reason no one is fighting the rail tunnel is because it isn't happening.
Finally, someone who thinks that freight tunnel to SI is a complete waste of time, effort and $$$.
Forget a freight tunnel... How about a passenger tunnel to Staten Island, connecting it to the SIRT? This way, people can go to SI via train instead of ferry, bus, or car. They can make the tunnel from the Bay Ridge LIRR ROW (build a station at 4th Ave and even create a transfer from the N,R at 59th Street) or from the end of the R at 95th St (which would make not much sense with the bridge there) and connect it with the SIRT. This way, people from Staten Island can have another option...
no need to build a station it was already built Then transit decided they could steal the money for the line and use it to inflate their swiss bank accounts
Staten Islanders don't want direct rail links with the rest of the city. Might bring the "riff-raff" from Brooklyn into the area.
I can't see why not? Staten Island has it's own share of "riff-raff".
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
We saw plenty of that during a recent trip. St.George terminal is full of unsavory characters, and PIGEONS, which fly low round the terminal and poop all over everything in sight. You need an umbrella in there. They ought to put some of those wooden owls (the ones with motion sensors that hoot when something flies by them) in there. What really turned my stomach was the sight of a line of them perched on a ledge above a snack bar while food was being sold below. Positively filthy.
Wayne
How did th ePigeons, get into there in the first place?
There are windows at the very top of the terminal that allow the birds access to the inside. It's sad the way the city has let both SI Ferry terminals fall apart in the past 15 years. I guess the idea is since they're supposed to be replaced (whenever they decide on the design) there's no reason to put any money into them right now. Still, they're the 2000 equivalent of where the subway's physical plant was 20 years ago.
If you think THAT'S bad, check out the mess these vile creatures have created under the eaves of the entrance canopy at 59th Street-Columbus Circle IND station (the entrance on the west side of 8th Avenue between 58th & 59th Street). It's enough to turn the strongest stomach.
I put pigeons in the same category as the LIRR MP-75s. Detestable, despicable and utterly FILTHY.
Wayne
Yes, but try and do a "population reduction" -- either through poison, gunshots or even in some cases bird birth control chemicals -- and the PETA people will get after you as though you were trying to knock off the last of the California condors.
And the worst part is - they are endemic. They're everywhere. In every major city. They've ruined the statues in Washington DC. They nest beneath highway overpasses here on Long Island. They may be cute to watch while in a place like Central Park, but give them a building or other structure and they are sure to create a real mess. To clean up after them you need the guys in the white suits - the HazMat team.
Wayne
Why not use one of the pigeons natural enemies to control their population. You might even have noticed an increase in nature's pigeon control problem: CROWS. The predatory nature of crows allows them a diet of pigeon eggs. They are known to raid the nests of more dosile birds and have some eggs for breakfast.
And as an aside, it is interesting to note how the more rural-based crow is fast becoming New York City's "other" bird population. As a kid I NEVER recall seeing crows in the city. At least not the amount that we're seeing in Brooklyn these days (you'd think we live in cow country or something).
P.S. The crow IS a much cleaner bird than the pigeon, BUT their "cawing is a REAL PAIN, particularly on a Sunday morning!
Doug aka BMTman
CAWCAWCAAW! I like crows.,Very Chunky Birds. You can also see them out here on Long Island.
combining two programs in the city will help,issue squab food stamps to the homeless and welfare, then upgrade to wild geese!
I've heard that uncooked white rice will do the trick. They eat it, it gets wet in their stomachs and expands and...
Alan Glick
Might as well feed them Alka Seltzer Pills
Minute Rice, that's what works. That's also why rice in general, and instant rice in particular, is banned by most churches now - bird seed, soap bubbles, butterflies, all are usually OK, but NO RICE.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ewww, rats with wings.
I actually suspect that it is the same flock of pigeons that has been wandering the earth since time began. Think about it -- When was the last time you ever saw a baby pigeon or a dead pigeon?
I like Cincinnati's idea for controlling pigeons. A few years ago, the city of Cincinnati in conjunction with the Department of the Interior began a program of breeding falcons, who would build their nests on the ledges of skyscrapers and feed on the pigeons.
I could just imagine some old lady tossing birdseed to the pigeons in Fountain Square, when all of a sudden... WHOOOOOSH! A huge falcon sweeps down out of the sky and grabs his lunch. If nothing else, it would certainly make for some good fodder for "America's Funniest Home Videos." lol
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
"I like Cincinnati's idea for controlling pigeons. A few years ago, the city of Cincinnati in conjunction with the Department of the Interior began a program of breeding falcons, who would build their nests on the ledges of skyscrapers and feed on the pigeons."
I don't know if they were brought here intentionally or if they just happened by and decided to stay, but we've got falcons right here in Chicago. They especially love Michigan Avenue across from Grant Park -- high cliffs overlooking a flat plain filled with lots of squab (pigeon) for dinner!
I used to work on one of the top tower floors of the Britannica Building (310 S. Michigan), and we had a falcon sitting on the ledge right outside our office windows on two occasions. Everything stopped in the office as people filled the room to see the falcon. Someone even managed to take some photos of it with an instant camera. Before we saw the falcon itself, the guy in the office next to mine found a pigeon's head on the ledge outside his window. For a brief while, until someone recalled reading about the falcons in the newspaper, everyone thought it was some sort of Mafia thing (as with the horse head in "The Godfather"). (^:
Peregrine falcons breed on ledges in cliffs--the diorama in the Museum of Natural History shows a nest in the Palisades. They were nearly extinct before the banning of DDT, but they've just now made it off the Endangered Species list, and the new urban population has taken to breeding on the ledges of skyscrapers instead, being handier for the pigeons. I think there are a couple dozen in the city now, but I'm not sure; there was one nest in the steeple of Riverside Church, and another in one of the giant "A"s on the Pam Am Building, which (as you can imagine) posed a problem when Met Life bought the building and wanted to change the sign.
There's also a red-tailed hawk nest on one of the Fifth Avenue buildings opposite the model boat pond in the park, which is really amazing to watch. You won't see them catching pigeons, though, since red-tails mostly eat mice and rats.
The reason you don't see baby pigeons is that they don't leave their nests until they are almost fully grown.
Dead pigeons? Last time I saw one was about four hours ago when I drove my bus into the terminal. There's always a flock there (because the passengers and drivers feed them....) and invariably, they walk around the bus docks. Sometimes they just don't move out of the way quick enough.....and they POP when the front wheel of the buses flatten them. (And then feathers fly all over the hot dog cart, so their business goes down a bit a couple times a day. keeps the terminal janitor busy, scraping up the flattened carcasses....)
And if you really wanna see a pigeon "meet it's maker", just wait until you see one ground itself on ATK's 11KV. It's like a cannon going off, with a few charred feathers floating down.
The best story I ever heard on the above action came from a PRR Electric Traction man. Here's the story: There was a little girl pigeon sitting on the trolley and a little boy pigeon sitting on a station beam and they touched beaks. And that was the hottest piece he ever got!!
At least one of them came over on The Gov. Herbert H. Lehman. It was observed strutting around the main deck, bold as brass, unfazed by the mass of humanity around it. At Saint George, it waddled off (leaving a trail of "cookies" behind it) then it flew toward the upper reaches of the terminal building. PHEW! Abstitively PHILTHY!
wayne :o>
Can you imagine Chambers St. on the Nassau St. line being overrun by pigeons? Let's hope it never comes to that.
For some reason, every time I'm at 168th Street lower level, the 'scary station' where the '1' stops, there are loads of pigeons flying around and nesting in the elaborate ceiling fixtures.
It seems unusual to see them in such a deep station. Either they took the elevator down, or they flew in from the portal at Dyckman Street a good mile north and managed not to get caught up in the vacuum of passing trains.
I once saw squirrels in th Grand Army Plaza IRT station. Go figure.
BTW, they should pay their fare like the rest of us.
Why? They're less than 44" long.
If they are not accompanying a paying passenger they are not entitled to a free ride. The rules allow up to 3 ***children up to 44 inches tall*** with a paying adult passenger. I have challenghed customers with more than 3 children and no other adult present. (I have told some that the rules is 3 children and I am considering that the kids "belong" to "another person" justy so they can get in for free. (Rule 27(b).
Incidentally, employees and other free riders must stand if paying passengers are standing due to lack of seats- Rule 27(c).
[Let's say the fantasy tunnel is built. It won't be able to handle double stacks, just TOFC, they've decided. No way long range train traffic would justify the cost of moving the boxes across the water by train and putting them on a truck, instead of putting them on a truck in NJ. The tunnel advocates don't admit that, hey, you end up with a truck in any event.
The only way it would pay is if trucks drove onto trains in Jersey for a relaxing trip without the traffic and toll, a la the Chunnel. But that would mean lots of trains, and they'd have to blast through Midwood at 30 to 40 mile per hour to make it pay vs. just driving over.]
This freight tunnel plan perfectly fits NYC's way of planning and thinking. What one sees with regard to government spending in the city is a reversal of the normal supply-demand situation that exists almost everywhere else on the planet. In other places, a governmental unit decides to undertake a public works project or other form of spending in response to a known or reasonably anticipated demand. Examples are easy to come by. Let's assume that population growth in the Phoenix metropolitan area has led to freeway overcrowding. In response to the situation, Arizona DOT will build a new freeway. In other words, supply is increased in response to demand.
NYC turns this on its head. The city will build a new hospital or expand an existing one, for example, even though the existing public hospitals (or even the same hospital pre-expansion) are grossly underutilized. On a less bricks-and-mortar level, the city might decide to expand a costly social or health service program even though the existing program doesn't serve many people. In each case, it is hoped that demand someday will increase to meet the increases in supply. But what counts in that the Upper West Siders and their allies at the _Slimes_ are happy - more tax money is being spent on social and health services, and the "nonprofit" poverty pimps earn even more profits.
The cross-harbor freight tunnel is an example of this "undemanded supply." You are correct in noting that it would be highly unlikely to make any significant changes in freight transportation patterns. But just like an unnecessary hospital, it will serve a "feel good" purpose - it supposedly will bring jobs and prosperity to all those poor people in Brooklyn and SE Queens. That, of course, conveniently overlooks the fact that if the tunnel really worked, it would mainly benefit Long Island (but who cares, all Long Islanders are either ruthless tycoons or cousin-marrying rednecks). The Upper West Siders will get to feel good, and the _Slimes_ will get to pontificate about the rebirth of the forgotten outer boroughs, and in the final analysis that's all that really counts.
I never heard of that, but a more recent East River Crossings Study plan was for a couple of layup tracks beside the ROW, under Flatbush Av., the parking lot and Blockbuster.
Until five years ago I lived a two blocks north of there. The Blockbuster's been gone almost two years. All there is now is a "For Goodness Steak" restaurant. There is room for 4-5 tracks underneath that overhanging "mini-mall".
That strength would certainly have to be reinforced with some razor-wire and whatnot since the ROW abuts the back of the Philip Howard Apartments.
Doug aka BMTman
B"H
Sure, they could add more 2/5 trains. As soon as they rebuild the interlocking at Franklin Ave. The geniuses who designed it added in a nice little feature...a bottleneck. The design severely limits the number of trains that can come from both the New Lots line and the Flatbush line. ugh.
Only in the southbound direction. However, it is an annoying feature.
Adding a storage yard would increase service even if the interlock remains the same. All trains leaving Flatbush in the morning must come in from the north. This bottleneck in the AM limits the headways on inbound trains, thus causing the same problems on soutbound trains. A storage yard would allow the TA to bring in a few trains in service without having them venture onto the Nostrand Ave. line from the north, allowing for smoother, faster Manhattan bound service in the AM.
If this turn-around and storage facility gets built, then the TA should consider extending the #5 line to Flatbush all day long, not just during the rush hours.
Nope!!!!! I do not want to deal with waiting for a 5 crossover in front of me.... The 4 provides frequent service during the day anyway..........
3TM
Has any 4 track line ever been upgraded to ATP/cab signalling before?
Where? We have that sort of thing in Chicago.
As anticipated, there are at least three R46's operating in "E" service along Fulton Street in Brooklyn--N-5768-69-67-66,6014-15-17-16-S was one of them. There is also a mixed consist of R32/38's that is running on Queens Blvd.
JUST KEEP THE R44's ON FULTON STREET/8 AVENUE PLEEEEASE--WE DONT NEED THOSE ON QUEENS BLVD!!!
The E train is suplimenting service on the Fulton Street Line. Therefore, equipment normally used in E service will undoubtedly be found between Hoyt and Euclid. The A train will not be suplimenting any service in Queens so there is no reason, other than re-routes for the R-44s to show up in Queens.
Why? The difference, from a passanger's perspective, is almost unoticable between the R44 and 46.
Maybe that small small small tiny cab door. I know that there are some "chubby" motorman (no offense) out there. How do they fit through that door? And the door isn't even from roof to floor. Who designed the door?
Don't hold back. There are some downright fat conductors and train operators. I did witness one which had to get through that door by entering sideways, because he was too wide. lol
One of the advantages of consistent equipment assignments is that a train operator or conductor can choose a line with cars that suit their needs. In the same way, we see how a vehicle feels before we buy it. However, to be politically correct, we do not refer to overweight train operators as fat. They should be referred to as 'dimensionally challanged' or 'calorically challanged'.
Well, as a proud member of the politically incorrect community, I'll refer to them as fat tubs of goo.
Sorry, but I gotta be me ...
For a moment there, I thought you were referring to a certain fleet of cars which have acquired various nicknames such as Lumbering Lardbuckets.
So I guess the politically correct way to refer to an R68 car is to use the term "velocity challenged"?
As a train operator, there is a big difference between the two! Namely, a tight, uncomfortable squeeze into the seat behind the R44 console.
Hmmm, maybe the A line should be reserved for those T/O's who aren't "big-boned'".
It looks as if the A line is stuck with the R-44s. I wouldn't mind if they went away and never came back, but that won't happen anytime soon. Maybe if they could be sped up a tad.....
The R44 isn't the R68. Sure, it's a bit more sluggish than the R46, but not so much as to have it denegrated like that. I just dont like the R44 nearly as much as the R46 because of that ugly grey stripe and the awful "passing gas" sounds it's brakes make.
I once heard a J train of R-27/30s make those same braking sounds.:)
I miss the different airbrake sounds cars had before GOH. The R46 whistle and the Darth-Vader like R40/42 were my favorites.
The R62 have a similar type of sound of releasing air......
3TM
The R62 sounds the same as all the GOH'd cars (R32-46). I assume they use the same breaking systems now.
You would have loved the R-1/9s. They would go tchhh-ssssss not once, not twice, but as many as three times as they would come to a stop. The BMT standards, OTOH, would emit a single tchhhhhhhhh as they came to a full stop. Those AMUE cars had distinctive sounds which you don't hear anymore.
I have heypaul's tape of his R9 trip. Those things would emit hissing sounds on a constant basis.
I know what you're talking about. The R-7/9s on the Canarsie would do just that while sitting at 8th Ave. It was almost as if they were alive and breathing. They didn't do that once the train would be running on its route. The compressor pumps were another story. Heypaul tells me he was sitting right on top of one of those compressors when he recorded that LL trip.
I do miss sitting on an idle train of R16 cars. Every few minutes, a whirring sound would come on, like a refrigerator motor, then exactly 90 seconds later, it would cut out. Nothing else I ever rode on excpet the R17 made those unique sounds.
It had to be the compressor.
02/03/2000
I rode an R-46 (E) today. I boarded at 34th St Penn Station for a one seat ride to Franklin Avenue for a ride on the (S) Franklin Shuttle. I never rode rode the R-46's on the JFK Exp, so could this be the first time in years that R-46's made revenue trips on Fulton St? They were there in 1979 or so when the R-46 cracked truck fiasco sent car assignments in a tizzy.
Bill Newkirk
I do remember seeing "CC"s of R46 cars way back when, probably around the same time as the truck problems were happening. They were being kept off of the express routes.
Wayne
I saw a CC of R-46s during my last visit to the city before moving out to Colorado - September 5, 1980. Not to mention an E train of R-10s. I don't think it was so much an issue of keeping the R-46s off express routes as it was a usage reduction issue. By using them during rush hours only, it cut down on total mileage.
Queens riders must've been pissed off to see ancient R10 cars on their trains and the brand new cars running on such a little used line like the CC. BTW, did the CC trains run in lengths of 6 or 8 cars?
When the R-46s were assigned to the CC, they ran in 6-car trains. I'm not sure of the arrangement; it may have been ABBBBA.
The R46 cars had problems with the undercarriage,ie. cracks in the trucks. thus they were removed from Queens Blvd service to[over 170 were out at time]part time service on the A,C and D line. they were replaced with anything that was available[R10/16/27-30/32/38/40S-M andR42S. The truck were removed from the R44 cars and placed under the 46s,and new trucks were ordered for both train sets. The cars were taken off the Brighton line because of noise complaints
This morning at about 7:30 AM the body of a male was reported to be lying on the south end of the north-bound platform at the Bay Parkway Station. While investigating, the train operator observed the body of a second male was found lying across the express track in the same area. I draw no conclusions here but I must conclude that this was not coincidental.
A double suicide, or maybe they did that on purpose so if they got hit and somehow and I mean somehow lived they could sue. And they should also look at the map and seen when the express tracks are being used.
Yeah, that's a real mystery. I heard something on the news that Police detectives don't know what they're dealing with there.
It could be a double-suicide, or some elaborate murder scene. They did say that one victim was found on the express tracks and the other was found on the platform. Supposedly, neither victim was hit by the train.
Very weird.
Doug aka BMTman
What they didn't say was that one subway car was found with three 1/2" holes through one of the seats. Was a gun found? Very strange double suicide..........
West End or Sea Beach Line?
OOOPs!!! On the Nancy, Naturally............
Just heard that these two individuals may have been subway surfing.
--Mark
Subway Surfing??? What is that I have never heard of it. Do they ride on top of the train?? Well they should know better. Also how were they able to get on top of the train. And how was that kid found on the express track. He must have flew once the train stopped.
That's exactly what subway surfing is. They ride the top of the train or somewhere on the outside. I'll guess between cars, since there's no clearance in the tunnels on the N line at all.
--Mark
Here are the final paragraphs from the story on the two teens in today's Post. You have to feel sorry for the families and their friends, but it doesn't seem like the message of what happened and the reasons why have completely sunk in yet.
But they were great graffiti artists...
***
<< Cory's mother, Shelley, said, "His liveliness kept me going. He was always laughing."
She said she had worried about her son's hobby of bombing subway stations with graffiti. His colorful scrawls covered the door to his room and he had been in trouble before for vandalism.
"Everybody was on his case, saying don't do it," she said, breaking into tears. "I want my baby back. Why, God, why did you take him?"
She said she recently lost her job and couldn't pay for her son's funeral.
Throughout the day, teens gathered at the station where the two boys died.
"They were both great graffiti artists," said Jimmy Sturiale, 15. "We're here to show them that we loved them, and to pay our respects." >>
"They were both great graffiti artists."
Do you think their friends would gather at the station in tearful tribute if they were killed by a robber while riding a train to or from school? I don't THINK so!
Reminds me of how, every time some teenager gets tanked up on beer and kills himself crashing his Dadillac, you see bouquets, teddy bears, crosses and votive candles set up at the scene afterwards.
I love how self-inflicted death through illegal activity is constantly romanticized.
That makes them both DOUBLE Imbeciles. "GREAT" Graffitti artists indeed. HARRUMPH! Phooey!
You live by the sword, you DIE by the sword.
Wayne
Imbeciles. They must have gotten scraped off the top of the train as it went into the short tunnel at the end of Bay Parkway station. They probably climbed out the "A" end of a Slant and onto the roofs (R68 doors are locked).
Wayne
Gee in all the cartoons, Sylvester, Yosemite Sam or whoever always ends up OK in the next scene after slamming into the roof of a tunnel while standings on top of a train. Guess this doesn't work as well in real life.
You took the words right out of my mouth! LOL :o>
Wayne
They jumped off an overpass and onto the roof of the train. They wanted to see who can duck before the train entered the station. They didn't see a steel beam. WACK!! bodies go flying.
Imbeciles.
LOL
wayne
Sounds like a possible Darwin Award candidate.
Remember the Looney Tunes cartoon w/Tweety and Sylvester in Venice? Sylvester is cruising down the Grand Canal on a speedboat at R-10 speed when he slams into a bridge (may or may not be the Rialto). There is a sign which says, "Ducka you head. Lowla brdgeta."
Almost a rim shot. Hey, I'm not making this up.
As I understand it,the R40M/42 cars are the only cars that operate on the 'J,L,[with a few R40S]M and Z lines. Everyone knows why the 75ft cars aren't used here,but why aren't there any other R units used? The last time I've seen another car type over here was pre-overhaul days R32 on the 'M'line. Are the yards[outside of Coney Island/207 st] equiped to handle only one type of subway car or are these cars assigned here because they are going to be retired with the next car order after the R143? Just wondering.Does anybody know the answer to this one?
The reason the R42 and R40M dominate the Eastern division BMT is because mechanically, their the worst cars in the system. IIRC, the R42 has the lowest MDBF of any car in the fleet. Therefore, they are assigned to the lower priority lines, with the much more reliable R32/R38 and slant R40's on more critical lines.
How did the R40M/42 cars perform on the "D" line? They were a mainstay on that line for years.
Yes they were. However, the entire fleet performed miserably back then, so it didn't matter much what equipment ran there.
At the time the R-16s ran on the Eastern Division.
They still got the worst of it.
They did OK. I also remember seeing R-27/30s on the D back then as well.
Chris--- You said that the R40M/R42's had the worst
reliability in the BMT fleet. I just went back to
the July 1999 issue of NY Division Bulletin where
they list Subway Car Reliability.
Car Class---April 1999----Average May 98 - Apr 99
R32-----------63,274 --------77,760
R38-----------64,992 --------87,793
R40----------147,516 --------75,157
R42----------129,117 --------64,766
and for comparison purposes
R44-----------62,298 --------57,017
R46----------134,735 --------74,352
R68-----------72,605---------96,855
R68A----------99,219---------99,381
and for laughs
R110B--------Not Avail--------2,431
They did not distinguish the slants from the
modified cars. These are only figures. What was
surprising to me was seeing the R32's with such low
figures. I don't know whether this reflected some
door troubles they were having before they were
switched around....
I think alot of the fleet was preforming poorly back in the 70s -- regardless of class -- due to the deferred maintainance policy.
Since the rebuilding of the R-40/40M/42, I'd think they perform just as well now as the R-32/38s. However, structurally, the R-40/42 cars are in poorer shape than the 32/38s. The body rot is beginning to show itself on many cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Quite a few of the Eastern Division Slants have gotten some help from the Body Doctors over the course of the last year. Venerable Slants like #4406-07, #4412-13, #4422-23, #4416-17, #4426-29 (the former with a few Band-Aids on his blind end due to the January 8, 1996 collision) and #4404-05 all have had their roofs fixed and rust-spots corrected. #4416-17 was actually out for quite a spell having their body work.
Some of the Coney Island Slants, however, are sporting welded-on patches along their rooflines.
Wayne
MDBF, November 1999:
R-26: 61,212
R-28: 59,306
R-29: 73,697
R-33: 91,368
R-36: 194,150
R-62: 1,777,823 (yes, you read that right)
R-62A: 152,336
R-32: 69,578
R-38: 70,653
R-40: 227,640
R-42: 100,774
R-44: 46,332
R-46: 90,231
R-68: 94,337
R-68A: 75,179
R-110A/R-110B did not run.
David
227,640 miles for the R40 - Not bad!
And KUDOS to Steve at Concourse-Yard for keeping the slow-but-reliable R68 fleet in fighting trim. That's one MEAN MDBF! Now, if he could only tune up their A/C a little bit for the summertime...they tend to blow warm, muggy air.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne. Actually, the monthly numbers are nothing more than a conversation piece. The true MDBF is the moving 12 month average. The Concourse R-68s went fro m 106,000 for 1998 to 113,000 for 1999. Those are numbers that I am proud of even though I was there only for part of the year. The real improvement came in the R-46s. They've been my pet project since 1990. I'm skeptical about the R-62 number, however. It seems a decimal place might have been missed but you know I'll be checking it out in the AM.
The R-62 number is no mistake. It was pointed out in the NYCT Committee Agenda for January 2000. The R-62 fleet ran over 1.7 million miles in November 1999, with ONE chargeable defect.
David
Since Jerome Shop had an MDBF of over 777,000 miles that month, it's entirely likely that it was so. However, I stand by my original statement,that monthly MDBF is nothing more than a conversation piece. 12 month moving MDBF is far more telling.
Either way, those are mighty impressive numbers.
Yes they are impressive and if my memory serves me correctly (and it usually does) I posted the Jerome MDBF for November on or about December 10th.
Yes, I do agree - that R62 MDBF number DOES look a tad fishy, doesn't it?
The decimal point - among the smallest printable characters in any language, but what it lacks in size it makes up in importance.
Keep up the good work with your fleet. Are we getting any more black floors in any time soon? (Just a wish, Steve)
Wayne
If the R42 is now performing so well, then they should be moved to more important lines, like the E. Their wider doors might make them better suited to the Queens Blvd. crowds.
I'm afraid you have the right idea but the wrong car class. The R-32 door opening is 4' 2" as is the door opening on the R-42s. In fact, every B division car class has a door opening that's 4' 2" except the R-38 which has a 3' 10" opening.
I woud have sworn the R42 had wider door openings.
Not according to the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing" manual.
There are more than "a few" Slant R40 in the Eastern Division - there are six full consists there, a total of 48 cars, #4398 through #4449 (with the exception of #4420-4421 and #4427 and #4428).
These 48 cars are all currently running on the "L". I think the ones that were running on the "M" during the WB shutdown have been returned to CI Yard. I have never seen a Slant on either the "J" or "Z" lines.
I understand the Slants don't have a "Z" in their rollsign. I don't see why this would prevent one from running, say, on the weekend, on the "J".
Wayne
It seems the policy is to consolidate fleets on lines or divisions for the sake of simplicity. 32's were from their delivery centered on the southern div., including the IND lines that were extended there, and the 42's were scattered, including some to the eastern div., and became the newest cars that section could have because everything afterwards was 75ft. So after decades of shifting around, and rebuilding, they decided to put all 42's and the similar 40m's on the eastern div. (and gave them stainless steel interior wall panels to resemble the newer cars), and the 32's remained in Coney Island, Jamaica, which I believe they first spread into via the N and maybe also the F in the 70's, and some were bumped from CI to Pitkin when the 68's replaced the 10's and 30's. The 38's pretty much stayed mostly on the IND, and the slant 40's spread to the southern div. from the B from the A, from the E & F. Some were sent to Canarsie to replace the 30's. Perhaps they used these, because they have many of the same parts as the 42's and especially the 40m's.
Most lines are pretty much consolidated, except for the N, which seemed to have gotten the leftovers from various orders (68's, 68A, slant 40 rebuilds, and the 32's which were always there.)
The R40M IS a Slant R40 without the slant. All mechanical components are the same (except, perhaps the front-end rollsign mechanism as originally delivered).
Also, the rebuilt R40Ms do not have the silver panels - only the R42s have them. And the NYCT-rebuilt R42s (#4840-4949) have different (R40-style) grab bars at the car ends.
The "R" is running two car-types these days: R32 and R46.
The "A" is running mixes of R32, R38 and R44.
The "N" (as you mentioned) runs R68, R32 and R40.
The "B", on the weekends, finds a few slants mixed in with the R68A's.
I think having mixed types of trains on a given line makes riding interesting from a rider/railfan point of view, but it is somewhat of a logistical problem from a maintenance standpoint. Remember the mid-1970s at Jamaica Yard? You had R-6, R-7, R-16, R38, R40, R40M, and R44 all sharing one facility. What a headache!
Wayne
I can report with certainty that there has not been a slant R40 running on the J line for as long as I can remember. Only straight R40M and R42 cars run there. There was a brief time in 1989 when a couple of non-overhaled R32 trains ran on the J. Other than that, the R40M/R42 cars have completely dominated the J train.
I remember Redbirds R30's on the J during the early 90's......
3TM
I hear it's gonna take over Euclid Av. for the C. So I was wondering, since I live in Jackson Heights, would I still be able to use the E weekday mornings to get to Union Tnpk?
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
Of course. The "E" service will operate as it normally does along Queens Blvd., so you will be able to get to Union Tpke without much of a problem. Due to the replacement of the World Trade Center switches, "E" trains can no longer use that terminal, therefore they have been extended to Euclid Avenue in Brooklyn, replacing the "C" train. This will only be in effect for the month of Feburary, so get your cameras ready for some unusual equipment sightings.
You have the F that goes to Union Tpke also. You'll have nothing to worry about- you can get to Union Tpke easily. The only thing that may happen is that instead of the E terminating at WTC, they'll end with the C at Euclid Ave in Brooklyn. They may also have regular service to WTC, but once they reach WTC, they'll change the train from E to C. Check the MTA Web Site www.mta.nyc.ny.us and click on service notices- then the C and E- see what they say. In the meantime, I'll check it out and get back to you and let you know. Please post your email address so that if you have any question like this, I or we at SubTalk can get back to you with a response a bit easier. Thanks.
R36Gary
Tanx boys, really do appreciate that. As long as I can get to Union tpke and get a train to the Garden, in case I wanna go to another Ranger game, I'm happy. I can still get to the WTC taking the 7 to the 1 or 9 or take the R all the wa to Cortland St. Tanx again.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
I <3 NY
GO YANKEES, GO RANGERS, GO KNICKS!!!!!!!!
Also go Mets- home of my R36 Redbirds on the #7 Flushing Line!!!
R36Gary
For a subway series!!! :)
I'll second that!
Yesterday, January 23, five car R-142A # 7216-20, were being operated on track Y-3 on the Dyre Avenue Line. About 6 TSS (formerly Motor Instuctors) were on board for training, as well as CED personnel and Kawasaki engineers. The train made several round trips from Pelham Parkway to Baychester Avenue, this gave every TSS a opportunity to operate the train. Many customers at Gun Hill Road were amazed to see the new sleek cars on the road. Today, Jan. 23, the R-142 (Bom. cars)
will be operated around the IRT, don't be surprised to see them out there.
Ooops, I made a mistake on the dates: Yesterday, Jan. 29 and today Jan 30.
01/30/2000
The Source,
Are the 142's being tested on the weekends ? What weekdays so we can catch them.
Bill Newkirk
On weekday after 10am until 12pm & i don't know about afternoon but someone report says they were testing after 1:30pm until sometime before 3pm. Im going to check out this week if they testing or not. Testing on weekend??? Im suprise they are testing on the weekend.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I didn't get a good look at it, but I saw what an R-142 on the Manhattan-bound express track at Atlantic Avenue tonight (Sunday) at about 10:30pm.
On some weekends the R-142's will be tested. At this time, I do not know if they will be operating this coming weekend. There will be General Orders issued if there will be a move this weekend. If my friend faxes me any R-142 GO's, I will then post it. Just remember, there will be many training and test moves happening on the Dyre Avenue Line, so my best advice is: Bring your camers if your headed towards the East.
Also, just a note, when CED and RTO tests the R-142's on the Dyre Avenue Track Y-3, they are only limited to operate no more than 15 mph. Track Y-3 is is in pretty bad shape, since the rails are old and pivoted. The rails were stored, since 1980, (look at the year of the rail) at 36 street Yard and were never used. I guess when high speed test are conducted, it will most probably take place on the main line.
Oh BTW, the move today with the R-142's was for clearance checking.
Track Y3 did put new rails from Baycheaster ave to Morris Park ave from Jan, 1999 to Nov,99. What you mean it Y4 Track are in bad shape not Y3. I don't see no problem with Y3 rails & they are in good shape.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Track Y-3 rails are not new. The rails might appear in good shape but they really are not. They were stored for many years at 36 Street Yard, exposed to all types of weather conditions. My colleagues and I inspected them from track level.
So the mean R142 will not testing on Dyre Av & where are R142 going to test?? Why the rails kept in stored many years?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
If this is true (rails on "test track" Y3 are really old) then why did they bother replacing the ones at Morris Park in the first place? They could have just extended the existing track northward, but instead they chose to rip out the old track through Morris Park and replace it with "new". There were service disruptions while they did this, with sections of old track being lifted out with a crane parked at Brady and Matthews Aves. (a block from my house). Was this operation pointless?
Track Y-3, north of Pelham Parkway, was built for the acceptance testing of the R-142's. All types of tests & training for the R-142's will be performed on those rails. The contract for the installation of Track Y-3 stated that the original Y-3 rails south of Pelham Parkway will be replaced.
Clearance testing of the R142 was done this morning on the Pelham Line. I was operating the 0252 Brooklyn bridge-Pel Bay and passed the 5 car test train on the hump north ofWestchester Square. We were held at Burhe Ave for roughly 5-10 minutes ahead of schedule due to G.O. 42-125 n/b. the test train passed me on M track and held outside of pelham. My train got into pelham and that consist went oout with the 0402 pel-br bridge. the test train came into the terminal and it got alot of approving looks from passengers waiting for the next southbound train I couldn't help but to catch a glimpse of the new train Brightly lit and the operators cab looks roomy and car interior looks spacious. I think RTO will be training T/O's at least to the basics of the R142 starting soon looks like some operators are to report to Pelham for something on Tuesday.
Just the seen the new train pass in front of my house on the Livonia Ave El. Time now 11:07pm. Jut as I was finishing these posts about it being tested. A Redbird 4 just passed by as well. The old following the new. The R142(A) is heading home.......
3TM
You're right. The R142 units 6301-05 have just passed northbound on the West Farms El at Jackson Av subway station headed up to the East as of 1:10AM this Monday Morning.
-Stef
The E's Terminal should be Lefters Blvd. With this the C runs to Euclid like normal and the A can do what it should be doing run to Rockaways and Rockaways only! With this nothing is cut and it will be like the late 1960's. Which I never saw since I'm only 14. At least this plan will lower crowds.
Two words for this plan:
NO CARS!!!
For the 30000000000000th time, THEY DON"T HAVE ENOUGH CARS TO DO THIS!!!!!!!
After learning on this board yesterday that Elderts Lane is now Eldert Lane I have to ask the following question.
I was reading the Sunday edition of the Daily News (my weekly connection with my old home town), where I read that the the baseball player, Jackie Robinson, is buried in Cyprus Hill Cemetary. When I lived there, it was Cypress Hills Cemetary. Has this name been changed too, or is this a display of the ignorance of some newspaper reporter?
When I lived there, it was Cypress Hills Cemetary. Has this name been changed too, or is this a display of the ignorance of some newspaper reporter?
The answer to your question is No and Yes -- in that order!
Well, I would say Montreal's is the best. The subway cars are more pleasant riding in, with the telecite ads and the rubber wheels, not to forget that 3 note sound it says when it departs a station. Also, the stations have alot of art and architecture. The dullest station is problably St. Laurent, but it still has a bit of art! It feels like you are in an art gallery instead of a subway station. And in 2 of the transfer points, you only have to cross a platform (!) to switch lines. What is your pick and why?
-sbd44
It's hard to say my favorite system, because I like every system I've rode on. Hey, I'm a railfan, can you blame me? I've rode on every system on the east coast, except Philly. To me, each system has their own personality that makes them cool.
I agree that Montreal does have a good system-all the reasons you said, plus their trains accelerate fast as hell. If you like architecture, then you'd love MARTA, their stations are the best. If I had to pick one, it would be Boston, no particular reason, it just an awesome system.
Never been to Atlanta... I'm only 11 (yes, you got a problem?), but I rode many subways in my life. I agree that it accelerates at a fast speed. 72 km/h. Sorry, but i'm canadian. I do not know the meteric system (besides feet). Newayz, the stations in montreal are wicked. But the best thing that the metro is underground. No windsheids. And it operates on ATO, automated train system. look at the section on montreal in "Around the world". If you only rode line 1 cars, the line 2 cars are way different. The Orange line is problably the busiest, as it links with 4 transfer points. And about MARTA, i've only seen the elevated level, and I liked it. simple architechture is good for me, just as long as it's good. Look at the Washington dc trains. Only arches, but a few dont have them. Like Anacostia. Better end this long thing...
-sbd44
Metric system! CONTINUE TO USE IT! That ridiculous piece of garbage we use here south of the border MUST DIE.
Anacostia DOES have arches - but they're different. They are set perpendicular to the trackways in the ceiling and look like big pipes cut in half, lined with acoustic panels. Anyway - Anacostia isn't really "underground" like the other stations (i.e. deep bore) - it's beneath the parking garage. Technically it IS underground, but very shallow. Lift the parking garage off and you will have an open-cut station. Note the smooth wall surfaces, typical of open-cut stations throughout the system (Grosvenor, White Flint, Branch Avenue (yes, I have seen photos of the new stations), Huntington etc.).
Wayne
Rode the London Underground, the Paris Metro, Bart, Septa, D.C., etc, and the New York Subway is the best. It may not be the neatest but there is something about its charm that no other system can approach. I wait for your reproach on this but I am firmly in the belief that I am right.
Hey Fred about the Red Line in LA and Bart. Someone said that Paris Metro had no rail fan windows. I remember when I went thru in 83 they had some railfan windows. So does the Athens Subway
When I was in Paris in 1985, their subways did have railfan windows, but not all of them. The #6 train which was a complete subway system, except for one stop, the Bastille, did have railfan windows. However, the one that went to Montreuil did not have those windows. I've also ridden on Boston's subway which I didn't mention in my last message. I could take it or leave it.
London.
Absolutely fascinating. Though if it were the tubes only, I'd have to take away a few stars.
In the US BART IN in the Bay Area. Rode it again yesterday, still have $1.00 left on myticket. No railfan window, but I was able to watch the Speedometer. In the outlying stations on the SF side, got up to 55. In the subway in downtown between stations 40. Did not cross the tube, no time. Train was quite, clean, clear announcements, on both stations and on train. Favorite overseas tie Hong Kong and Singapore,
I'd have to go with Montreal as the best subway system, because of the way it is integrated into the city, with all the underground concourses, walkways, and commerce. We had a great dinner in a pub in a commercial corridor off an underground subway station. You can't do that in New York. And despite the food and drink, there was no garbage, anywhere.
In NYC, going into the subway is like going into the cellar. It works, but it isn't fun. Elevated stations are nicer -- in nice weather -- but not otherwise.
I have been in the metro and went to many shops and places. I ate fries from TWO different mcdonalds from the same station. I believe that an HMV downtown has an entrance to peel station.
For everybody else:
Now what is your least favorite system?
My vote is new york. I like the cars and stuff, but too complicated to ride for a kid.
My least favorite system? I don't think I have one. What is least favorite to me is a city without rail transit -- streetcars, at least -- that is an integral part of it (Buffalo's one line does not count). To me, it is not a real city in the sense that I want to live in one.
I've never been on any of the European or Asian systems. I have rode Bart, D.C Metro, Montreal, Philly and Boston. New York's is the dirtiest, nosiest and most croweded and least pleasing to the eyes. However, it does its job well, is much larger than those other systems combined and in my book it will always be my favorite. It's kinda like that old car you don't want to get rid of. A newer one has all new features and is more pleasing to see, but the old system is old reliable.
Mark: I agree. There is no system like the New York one, dirt, warts and all. And no other system has a Sea Beach either.
Architecturally and aesthetically, I'd have to go with the Washington Metro or Atlanta's MARTA.
In terms of the best views from the trains and the best way to explore the city, then the Chicago L takes the cake.
In terms of being able to get from Point A to Point B with the least amount of walking, waiting and general hassle at any time of the day or night, all other cities in the US must bow down before New York.
I haven't been overseas yet, so I can't comment on other systems like London or Paris.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Chicago surprised me. Their system is not bad. Rode the train out to Wrigley in 1998. Not bad. What I liked about Chicago, however, was its people. I had no idea it was such a friendly town. It really is, the people were just great. They made feel right at home. I was really pleasantly surprised.
You can't say you've really ridden the system until you've ridden the
Lake-Englewood-Jackson Park in my opinion. Definately the best ride from a railfan's perspective. Long, fast runs between stations, and fantastic views, especially from the Englewood line.
Skokie Swift is also interesting in that it makes it's 5-mile non-stop run in 8 minutes, and has such varying construction: open cut, embankment, very high "L" structure, and then down to grade level (complete with grade crossings).
The Chicago "L" is somewhat unique in the fact that it has 26 grade crossings.
-Jacob
well ! i would pick WASHINGTON D.C. OVER ATLANTA !! i would give san francisco over ATLANTA !!
sorry folks N.Y. N.Y. is my favorite !!!
Can you pick something more original :p
Well, I shall put my 2¢ worth in on this topic:
My favorite system has been, and always will be (well at least until they withdraw my favourite cars) New York. Washington DC is a close second. I would like to see London some day - I have seen videos of the Hammersmith&CITY, District and Central Lines (taken from the driver's cab) and the system is fascinating - a mix of old and new.
Wayne
Of the systems I've had the pleasure of exploring:
1) NYC - elevated, underground, express, local, fast stretches / tight turns, a nice variety of equipment, 24 hour service, so much to see... etc... New York is the world's subway model...
2) London - many of the same advanages as New York minus the railfan windows, 24 hour service and elvated parts. Still a great system that receives ZERO government subsidy!
3) Paris - like Montreal only more of it. Full of character. No railfan windows though.
4) Toronto (hometown bias?) - most of the stations aren't pretty. But no system has better service from end to end all the time (okay it's closed from 1:30-5 daily). The longest scheduled wait for a train at anytime is 6 minutes! All trains have railfan windows and most have bus /streetcar loops built into the station complexes which make transfers very convenient. In fact the underground streetcar loops at Spadina, St. Clair West and Union are more good reasons to like the system. The strange SRT line at the end of the Bloor Danforth is another interesting thing about the system. The Sheppard subway line is scheduled to open in 2002.
5) Boston. Very interesting mix of equipment (traditional subway cars / third rail and pantograph cars on the blue line and streetcars on the green line). The service can be poor at times depending on where you're going and what time of day it is and some of the stations are a mess. But the Mattapan / Ashmont line is technically part of the subway...
6) Chicago. The loop is good, express runs and some interesting sights. The stations I saw weren't too interesting nor was the equipment and the service wasn't the best.
7) Montreal. Some interesting stations and connections. All underground (it's nice to have some open cuts or els). The cars aren't fast (70 km/h) max for the system according to the STCUM website and the equipment is virtually all the same. most bus transfers are outside on the street which is not the best in the winter.
8) Philly. The el is interesting and the BSS has it's charms. I liked the Budd cars (haven't been on the Adtranz ones yet). When i was there i found the service to be not so great (to put it nicely) and the SEPTA staff to be very unhelpful (or maybe just disorganized). The system is also pretty small and a lot of the stations aren't in the best shape. I like the streetcar subway a lot though.
9) Buffalo: limited system. High speeds though - 53 mph balancing speed between most stations!)
10) Rome - very small system. Interesting odours...
Since when is London open 24 hours. The last I knew, the last trains leave the terminals at midnight
My personal award for the most remarkable stations goes to Moscow. My award for the most unique annoucement in stations is 'Mind the Gap' in the London Underground.
It would have to be the NYC subway. I don't think I would spend around $40 to buy tickets, films and miscellany and travel 100 miles to ride ANY other subway.
It's advantages include:
-Size-biggest subway you'll find(maybe London) and the amazing thing is it's ALL contained within city limits
-History-certainly one the biggest piece of infrastrcuture ever put into NYC
-Charm/Character-Washington is sleek and modern but lacks that old, big city subway feel. Boston is nice but no express service. Philly is also very good and has express service but you can ride the entire subway/el/trolley/PATCO system in 4-5 hours. I've spent about 20 riding the NYC subway and still have about 40% left to ride
-Express service, express service and express service-on a scale unlike any other system in the world and most of the express service is all on the same level as the local stops which is something I almost require of a good subway system
-Variety of rolling stock-19 different classes and different sizes
-Service range-see some of the world's most famous buildings, places and landmarks and travel more than 200 miles from the edge of Queens to the heart of midtown for $1.50
And it's few disadvantages:
-Single mode-Boston, Philly and to a lesser degree(and I use the term loosely) San Francisco have more than just heavy rail subways. In these cities, the subway takes you right onto the street. It would be nice if you could say get off the #7 at Main Street and ride an LRV along Roosevelt or Northern Blvds further into Queens
-Lack of crosstown service-in Manhattan or the Bronx you pretty much need to take the inferior bus to go crosstown but this isn't so in Queens and Brooklyn
-Lack of real extensions/new lines that really need to exist-exciting and valuable new subway lines have either yet to be built or haven't/won't be built to original plans
All in all, it beats any other I've done by far and is the requirement of not just a railfan but everyone to just ride the subway once to get a feel of rolling history.
And now my diatribe is over....
Lack of crosstown service-in Manhattan or the Bronx you pretty much need to take the inferior bus to go crosstown but this isn't so in Queens and Brooklyn.
How is this? The G line doesn't go where most people who don't go to Manhattan want to go.
When travelling crosstown outside of Manhattan, the only way is by car.
In Manhattan, it's by foot.
YOU MENTION NEW LINES. PERHAPS TAKING OVER SOME LIRR BRANCH LINE IN NAUSSA AND INTAGRATING THESE BRANCHES INTO THE SYSTEM.SOMETHING ALONG\THE LINES OF THE OLD ROCKAWAY LOOP LINES TO BROOKLYN AND PENN STATION. THEN AGAIN THE HEMPSTEAD AND WEST HEMPSTEAD BRANCHES TO LOOP
BACK TO THE "E" AND "F" LINES . THIS WAY R 38'S COULD STAY IN SERVICE.
I have ridden on only a handful of subway systems in my life: New York, Chicago, MUNI, and BART in the US; Montreal's Metro in Canada; and overseas on London's Underground and the Paris Metro. All are unique in their own way. One BART train I took got up to 85 mph in Oakland and 72 in the Transbay tube. Chicago's L trains can move, but are excruciatingly loud in the subway portions. London's system is fascinating. Too bad I didn't think of riding on the original 1863 portion when I was there.
But none of them can top New York, even if the express runs aren't as fast as they used to be.
Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I got tired of staring at each other this morning so we decided to hop in the van for a quick run over to Philly. We crossed the Burlington-Bristol Bridge just after 10:30 and found ourselves staring at the hind end of a trackless shortly before 11:00, so after a quick early lunch we drove around the yard at Frankford (lots of Almond Joys still sitting there, mixed with the new units), found a melted slushpile under the el in which to park, bought our tokens and climbed aboard. It was a smooth ride all the way to 69th Street; we were able to claim the front seat around 15th Street but we had a good view from the second row up until then. After doing the eeny meeny myney moe routine (routes 100, 101, and 102 all leave from 69th Street) we settled on route 100 and a fast ride in the rear-facing railfan seat to Norristown. Patronage was light and mostly going the entire distance so the operator didn't have to make too many stops. We walked around Norristown for a half hour or so, looking at the site of the old station and at a couple of markers in the sidewalk where the el columns had been. We watched the inbound R6 train make its station stop at Norristown Transportation Center and saw a light NS engine come up from Elm Street and then return. Then we had a jerky ride back to 69th Street, facing forward this time, with an operator who didn't seem to know his stuff - he overshot one passenger stop by about five car lengths and had to radio for permission to back up, and his operation in general was very abrupt. We got the second seat going back as far as 8th Street, when the brats in front of us got off and we were able to claim the window for the remainder of the run to Bridge and Pratt. The snow had started to fall lightly by the time we came out of the tunnel and the operator overshot two stations in a row because of wet rail, one by more than a car length. But otherwise the run was smooth. Then back across the Tacony-Palmyra Bridge and home. All in all, a fun day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello everybody: Let me clear up a few facts about why the plan was carried out in the fashion it was.
The E carries 2500 more PPHPD (passengers/hour/direction) than the A & C combined, so it was decided to provide E service to WTC during the GO.
There would be severe overcrowding between WTC and W4 if the E ran down the F line to one terminal or another.
As it's running down 8th Ave, the next terminal with both a crew room AND space for a TD/ATD is Euclid Ave.
Forget about switching lines at Jay St, it's too time consuming and will delay 8th Ave trains ESPECIALLY if the C continued to run.
Besides, Church Ave's facilities were destroyed by an arson fire approx 10+ years ago. Running all the way to Stillwell/KHY would severely impact on F service, so forget about that option.
Bergen Street- As most of you know, there was a fire last March that destroyed the relay room and tower. Only the minimal amount of switches/signals have been re-installed in the "temporary" new model board.
Only moves from/to B3-B1 S/B and B2-B4 N/B can be made at the north end of the station.
Every other switch/tower controlled signal doesn't even have mini-levers n the board!
Why?? Get this--they want to install all local tower's operation into the "Rail Control Center" now being constructed.
They intend to make these towers CP's (ala Conrail et al)!
The TWO pick will probably last only 2 days when RCC opens in 2004!!
At least one positive thing happened with the fire-- The Wheel Detectors were all removed.
OK, for those of us not familiar with all the lingo, what's the TWO pick?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
TWO= Tower Operator.
Hello everybody: Let me clear up a few facts about why the plan was carried out in the fashion it was.
The E carries 2500 more PPHPD (passengers/hour/direction) than the A & C combined, so it was decided to provide E service to
WTC during the GO.
There would be severe overcrowding between WTC and W4 if the E ran down the F line to one terminal or another.
Does this mean that the excuse for overloading the "F" for not terminating at 2nd Ave is bogus? It seemed a little far fetched. After all the "E" and "F" merge between 75th and 71st Aves without backing up either to Jamaica. Also, if adding trains to the "F" on Houston St was not feasible, then how could one seriously consider the proposed plan for routing some additional BMT trains from DeKalb Ave through the Rutgers St tunnel (at a cost of $500 million+).
BTW that 2500 PPHPD works out to less than 20 passengers per 60' rush hour subway car per hour. One or two extra rush hour "A" or "C" trains should handle that crush load.
The most interesting thing to me about Vinny's comment is the part about Church Avenue's facilities being in disrepair due to an arson fire, and Bergen Street still being in temporary mode. I was shocked, shocked a couple of years ago when I found out that the 14th Street tunnel ine might as well have been single-track due to a ventilation system problem. Then, of course, there was the deterioration of the Sea Beach express tracks, which limited re-routes.
Just how many TA facilities are degraded in this way, and how to they affect service options?
Most of the system is now in good repair. The worst underground stations now consist of the Chambers St. and Bowery stations on the Nassau St. line.
As far as track goes, the short spur between the 111 th and 121 st. stops on the J line looks like it must date back to the opening of the line in 1917. The ties look like they have rotted completely through.
Bowery didn't look all that bad when we rode through it last fall. Chambers St. is approaching a state of ruin second only to the Colosseum in Rome. Never mind Ellis Island before the main building was marvelously renovated.
On New Years Eve I had to wait for a "J" Train back to Bklyn at Chambers at 3AM. It was the first time in that station since I went to Pace U. in the mid 70's. After reading the SubTalkers description of the station I expected to see ancient ruins. But in reality it looked pretty much the same as it did in the 60's and 70's which was pretty crappy then too. But it didn't look much worse.
I think they should leave Chambers Street just as it is, as a WARNING to future generations about the consequences of party-hardy budgeting with rising debt and deferred maintenance. I'd just stabilize the place. I'd turn the concouse level into an anti-transit musuem, with exhibits on graffiti, vandalism and decay. You could put some graffiti scarred trains on the unused tracks, complete with urine and vomit spell.
Perhaps if people are reminded of the consequences of personal freedom without responsibility and short termism, decay can be confined to that one station. It's well located, too, right under the municipal building.
Hello,
I hope this does not offend anyone as this message is a solicitation of sorts. I manufacture MTA officially licensed NYC Subway tokens sets that are now available for purchase through www.everythingnyc.com
The site also carries a set of historic NYC transit maps. I thought everyone here might be interested. Have a look and let me know what you think. Thanks.
I have that set of historic maps. It includes a 1929 IND Second System map as well as other street and subway maps through the years.
01/30/2000
I haven't been on the Market-Frankfort line since the "Almond Joys" were retired. Since the M-4's are now accepted as the new standard for the line, how are they holding up as far as asthetics? Are the windows scratched?, seat cushions ripped? any graffitti inside or out? In other words, is SEPTA taking care of the cars?
Bill Newkirk
No grafitti so far, but that has never been a huge problem in Philly. Scratchitti is a problem, but the M-4s have film over the glass that protects and can be easily replaced. They don't replace it as often as they should, though.
The seat cusions are problem. That was a huge mistake in the design of teh M-4s. They are stained, ripped, and falling apart. They will have to be replced with something more durable in two years or less. Fabric-covered foam cushions just don't cut it in the city.
The automated announcements still malfunction occasionally. The electronic side signs are just as bad as ever - I ride every day, and STILL have yet to see a train with all side signs working properly...
They are allright, though. They are a thousand times better-looking and more comfortable than the Almond Joys. The critical systems all function well so far. The best thing about them is the acceleration - you haven't lived until you've had an M-4 push you back into your seat!
01/31/2000
Rich,
Re: Cushion seats on M-4's
It seems SEPTA has the same shooting itself in the foot problem our NYCTA has. I'm pretty sure they were warned against equipping the cars with cushion seats but did the usual deaf ears routine. Oh well!
Bill Newkirk
Cushioned seats are a great idea. All we have to do is sentence anyone who tears them to many years of hard labor. Although, that doesn't prevent the seats from sagging and turning into crap, like our friendly neighborhood railroad to points east and their M-1 and M-3 cra^H^H^H cars.
Ha, those M-4 cars are the worst subways cars ever produced. They make the R44-46 cars seem like there the best things around. Accelaration I dont think the M-4 waas better then the Almond Joys. The Almond Joys knew how 2 run and knew how 2 keep the schedule. I have 2 ride the damn line 2 times a day and Im sick of it. Even now with the sow those cars have been performing even worst. They cant even keep the scedule amonsget them selves. I also think they are so friggin ugly. Geez they made fun of the Alond Joys cause of there humps, well those M-4s have the ugliest and bggest humps on a roof I ever did see. I hope we get those soon 2 be retired PATH cars 2 replace the M-4s or bring back the Almond Jooys 2 replace the M-4s...
While I was among those not too impressed with the M-4's at first, I've grown to like 'em. The cellophane covering of the emergency contact button/switch near each door was a dumb idea (and it has since been rectified), but otherwise the cars are fine to me. It's interesting that the same cloth seats now being used on the newest buses are not slashed or soiled to any great degree (and I haven't noticed slashings on my infrequent El trips, but the dirty seats are very noticable). I'd rather vote for rider comfort, with the extra maintenance/cleaning effort, than install plastic seats anyway.
As one who is not the biggest supporter of all things SEPTA does (too many of them seem boneheaded), I think I agree with the approach to the M-4's. Given there are some bugs to be worked out (do you blame SEPTA or the goofy car-builder, ADtranz?), the fleet should do its duty for years to come.
From our ride on them yesterday, my observations are: they're dirty (thanks to the pax - chicken bones and trash on the floor), the seats are comfortable (and I didn't see any ripped ones), there's lots of scrachitti on the railfan window, and they don't have very good adhesion on wet rail (confirmed by the t/o, who said that from his perspective that's the only bad thing about them).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's interesting that the same cloth seats now being used on the newest buses are not slashed or soiled to any great degree (and I haven't noticed slashings on my infrequent El trips, but the dirty seats are very noticable). I'd rather vote for rider comfort, with the extra maintenance/cleaning effort, than install plastic seats anyway.
What about vinyl over foam, like the M-3s? I'd like to see smooth vinyl like the DC Metro... I think that would work well. Fabric just stains too easily, and Scotchgard just doesn't do the trick...
I'd take the vinyl/foam also. No danger of sticking to the vinyl in hot weather with the A/C...
I also agree with Anon-e-mouse. SEPTA should vigorously enforce the no eating/no drinking rule and get harsh with the chicken bone set. For that matter, maybe gum chewing should be prohibited too, since I'm tired of seeing 'molten' gum stuck on sidewalls, floors, etc. Let's teach the slobs some respect...
They make the R44-46 cars seem like there the best things around.
Since they are, I'll take that as a compliment for the M-4.
I disagree about acceleration. Usually new cars seem slower due to a smoother ride and less noise. Not so with the M-4s - they seem every bit as speedy as the M-3s, and they were very fast. I'd say the M-4's top speed is pretty much equal to the M-3s. Acceleration is noticeably faster, IMHO. It would make sense given the advanced AC traction - it SHOULD have much better acceleration, shouldn't it?
I rode the M-3s daily for a year and a half - they did not keep schedule any better from my observations.
As for the look, the M-4s look fine. Not great - definitely a bit utilitarian, but certainly not objectionable. They look decent - very modern appearance. Not sleek like Stockholm's C20, but still fine-looking.
While the acceleration is nice while you are sitting down, it can get downright annoying while standing up. As for the seats, they are probably the worst that I ever seen. A divider was stupidly put between the two seats, something thankfully absent from the Almond Joys. But other than that, at least the M4s have a real railfan window, with seats facing it, and are air conditioned, and are making it from end to end. I think they will be fine.
I didn't like the fact that the Almond Joys were going to be replaced but the M-4's have grown on me. They look out of place, sleek, modern cars in run-down, dingy stations that haven't been renovated in ages. The Almond Joys were better in that and several ways.
The cloth on the seats makes sense, but not in Philadelphia. I remeber one of the first comments I heard about the new trains;
"You know these seats are going to get ripped up. That's a shame because I appreciate comfort".
Coffee spills are there but what really gets me are the setas that for whatever reason have been mashed to the point where you sink deep into the seat(and by deep, I mean 2-3 inches). The cars aren't as spacious either but they get the job done.
Does anyone know if the Jahn's on Hillside Av is still there. Some of us are looking for a Kitchen Sink right about now.
Don`t know about Hillside Av.but as a kid visiting my grandmother in the Bronx we went to the one near Fordam Rd.(Mid 60`s)
Also I recall an article in the Daily News 2or3 years ago describing a sort of mechanical band in a Jahn`s location in Brooklyn. The one in the Bx. had a Seeburg R juke box w/wallboxes at the tables.
These has been a thread about this for over a week. It is still there and you can see it from the J/Z train.
But is it OPEN? And is it still like you people remember it?
It's open but I don't go there.
we lost our Jahn's in union nj about 2 years ago. they need the land for "super drug store". we only have 5 "24" hours stores in the area. i will miss my "teen aged hang out".
Check out http://www.lirrhistory.com/lic.html
It's the third picture on the page.
Once a year, when the Ringling Bros Circus is at the Nassau Coliseum you see the circus train parked in the small freight trainyard on Stewart Av opposite the Roosevelt Field entrance. Does anyone know if thats the only time the Central Line tracks E/O the Hempstead Line cutoff in Garden City is ever used?? If it is, isn't it kind of uneconomical to retain a ROW just for one train a year? Who pays to maintain the ROW? Ringling Bros?? Does any train ever cross Stewart on the freight tracks towards Roosevelt Field. As a kid I only once saw a train crossing Stewart and I have seen several freights on the trestle over the Meadowbrook years ago. Also as a little kid in the early 60's I used to go to someones house for cub scouts who lived in the military housing that backs up to the 'ol Central Br where Nassau Comm. College is now. I once remember seeing a train back there and that was east of the freight yard. If I remember correctly (It was almost 40 yrs ago) it was a work train and it stopped there and reversed back west.
There's very little frieght traffic through there now. The surrounding community doesn't want the line to become active, on accounts of noise late night (ironically, this line used to be electric once upon a time...) The circus train is the biggie, but I've seen some other traffic there. I think it's mostly a storage track and for trainning LIRR crews.
I've not seen anything actually move around there, ever...
I believe this was the last hold out for MP-41s AND the only place RDCs were used on LI. I believe I've located an abandoned substation in a parking lot by the yard. Lotsa medium sized boxes with "Westinghouse" on them. Needless to say, I didn't look carefully - being a somewhat scrappy looking guy with a Harley is a great way to grab attention in a less than residential area!!! A few stenciled markings for the breakers in one of the boxes(north feeder, south feeder, I think), and it was all so overgrown, I can't imagine it's still a live box (and NO I'm not going to test it for anyone ;)
In fact, you'd never know it was there unless you looked closely. I found it simply. I was pretty certain the line was electrified, and I knew there *had* to be a substation along the way!
And since it looked unused, and not like anything I've seen by lilco, I figured it's a substation or at least a breakerbox. And I know the LIRR used Westinghouse traction equipment at one time.
Speaking of freight lines, the line that runs behind UHA is active once again, and features a high hood GP-7 (I think It's a 7), with dynamics no less. Often. I know around noon on tuesdays and thursdays is a reliable time, and I hear them at other times too.
Supposedly, there's an ALCO RS-1 (or 3?) in the area, though I've not seen it :(
I'm hardly a diesel fan (and even less a freight fan), but antique power is fun anyway (as long as it's not steam. I hate steam).
Even neater, heading towards Hartford, the train slows to a crawl (from it's already slow speed - this thing never gets out of notch 1), and thus you get the sounds of brakes and cars banaging, etc. The RR in unidentified (so far), but the the loco is #1922. The track is jointed, and more like strips of steel held together by mostly gone ties as opposed to track :) It's been polished clean, and the big snowstorm the other day didn't stop them either.
If I ever get a camera handy up here, maybe I'll snag a pic, I've got a GREAT view if it weren't for the $#^#$%^ fence. Hmm, maybe I know somebody in the Villiage Quads facing the tracks....
Well I learn something new everyday. I didn't realize it was electrifed to the yard. I thought it was electrifed only to Clinton St for the old shuttle from Country Life to Clinton. Was it electrified any further?
By the way, I hope you weren't on your Harley this week!!! I got 2 bikes, a '91 Harley Police (FLHTP) and an '82 Yamaha Virago. Used to ride all the time and all over the East Coast until my son was born 3 years ago, now I ride so little the last time I checked both bikes had dead batteries. Gotta get a side car!!!
Oh yeah, where is that line you're talking about. UHA doesn't ring a bell.
I'm pretty sure it was electrified beyond Clifton Street. I had always thought it went all the way to Mittchell field at one time. I know it was electric at least to where that firehouse is, cause that used to be a train station at one time.
There's a spur off to the LI BUS garage, and there's a post office and a few other truck intensive places along the line. I bet they could make a few $$$ running stuff out there if the area would let them.
Of course, my solution to the late night train noise would be to come up with a battery-electric that could use third rail till it gets there, then run under battery power to wherever it needed to go, dump it's cars, and go back. And charge up whenever it's on the rail.
And, if it's gonna sit at a spot for a few hrs while they load/unload the cars, put a 480V outlet there and plug it in. Kinda like a forklift.
That way, you'd get the quietness of an electric, without having to run a third rail out there. And you won't have to worry about gapping anywhere either, so you can make the locomotive as small as practical, and go anywhere with it. I believe this in fact HAS been done before, years ago, and battery technology has advanced quite a bit over the years...
Actually that firehouse is at Clinton Rd. By the way, I think there is a website on the old Central Branch. I can't remember the url but I think I have a link to it on my tranbuff page
I have a couple of pages on the Central RR at http://www.lirrhistory.com/central.html and http://www.lirrhistory.com/centpics.html
Also check out http://www.hempsteadplains.com/CNTRLRR2.htm
Thanks Bob, I'm pretty sure I have those links on my trainbuff page.
I don't think the NIMBYs in Garden City want any kind of rail service on that line period. But you are right, there is still a lot of rail in place beyond the "Circus" freight yard & many industrial sites that might be interested in freight service.
If they ran the freight streight thru to the mini yard I don't see what the Garden City NIMBYs could do about it.
Mr t__:^)
01/31/2000
Jeff, you have a '82 Yamaha Viagra?? Must be a hard ride!
Bill Newkirk
You made me check my post!!!!! But I did say Virago!!!
[Speaking of freight lines, the line that runs behind UHA is active once again, and features a high hood GP-7 (I think It's a 7),
with dynamics no less. Often. I know around noon on tuesdays and thursdays is a reliable time, and I hear them at other times
too.
Supposedly, there's an ALCO RS-1 (or 3?) in the area, though I've not seen it :(
I'm hardly a diesel fan (and even less a freight fan), but antique power is fun anyway (as long as it's not steam. I hate steam).
Even neater, heading towards Hartford, the train slows to a crawl (from it's already slow speed - this thing never gets out of notch 1), and thus you get the sounds of brakes and cars banaging, etc. The RR in unidentified (so far), but the the loco is #1922. The track is jointed, and more like strips of steel held together by mostly gone ties as opposed to track :) It's been polished clean, and the big snowstorm the other day didn't stop them either.]
That's the Griffin line, right? I can't imagine where the freights would be going - the last I saw, several years ago, the line more or less dead-ended in the northern end of Bloomfield, close to nothing. As far as I knew there weren't any active freight users along the line.
Guess I'll have to make a trip up there soon :-)
Yes, this IS the Griffin line. I have no idea where they go (I think there's a home depot warehouse in Blomfield - I'll investigate this summer) There's enough traffic to polish up the rails!!!
This was going to be a light rail line the other year, but the state of CT couldn't possibly find any way to afford the 170 million. As a matter of fact, they were so strapped for cash, the next year, they could only offer the Patriots 300+ million for a stadium. Traffic still sucks up here...
And the sad thing is, the people up here *like* it that way.....
A correction to the above note mentioning RDCs on the LIRR -
Regarding the RDCs referred to above - The LIRR used them frequently on the Patchogue Scoot as well as other shuttle like or connecting trains on the South Shore and North Shore. I don't believe the RDCs were ever in a regular assignment on the Central Branch. They wren't even delivered until 1955 or so and to the best of my knowledge - the Central branch no longer supported passenger service by the time of their delivery.
What is an RDC?
AN RDC IS TH E TERM USED FOR A RAILWAY DIESEL CAR , BUILT BY BUDD IN THE 1950'S AND USED ON SHORT HAUL RAIL BRANCHES. THE LATEST IS IN THE DALLAS FT. WORTH AREA , SOME REBUILDS FROM THE BOSTON AND MAIN AND
CANADAIN NATL.
STOP SHOUTING! This board should have a feature that detects an overabundance of capital letters and orders that person's computer to give that person a swift kick in the ass.
The Sarge has asked a question about RDCs and this is a long answer - a bit off topic - please excuse the diversion.
The RDC was a product of the BUDD company and was developed to satisfy the need to provide rail transportation where steam and diesel hauled trains were unprofitable. This included both short and long haul transportation - though most applications were in short haul.
The RDC was developed at a time when the railroads were noticing losses on the balance sheet due to expensive to run passenger services usine steam or diesel locomotives with multiple trailing coaches to transport small numbers of folks - inefficiently.
The solution became the development of a single car operation (self powered) which reduced the possibility of empty cars trailing behind a locomotive and enabled smaller crews - less fuel burned - better economics - faster schedules - less maintenance.
RDCs are fully capable of MU operation and could run in trainsets when
passenger volume warranted it.
RDCs have some easilly recognized features. They are self propelled Stainless Steel diesel powered cars that look similar to a rail passenger coach - except for a very prominent blister above the middle portion of the car.
The drive train used was typically all GM. Engines used were typically Detroit Diesel 6-110 (similar to GM Detroit Diesel bus engine 6-71 but with a large displacement - 110 cubic inches per cylinder) hooked up to a similar design transmission developed by Allison - torque converter for fluid drive start up and lock up at higher speed - similar in behavior to hydraulic transmission on a city bus.
The blister above the car among other things - provides for engine cooling and exhaust stacks. Engines (two Detroit Diesel 6-110s per car) and transmission are located under the floor.
Acceleration was usually as good as or superior to diesel acceleration and when RDCs ran on the Hudson Division from the '60's through the '80's - they could reach over 80MPH between some points - Poughkeepsie and Beacon for example.
The LIRR experimented with two RDCs purchased around 1955 (back when they bought their RS3s) in an effort to provide inexpensive transportation to the East End.
I have photos of them in operation on the South Shore near East Hampton, have heard they were in use on the North Fork between Ronkonkoma and Greenport and saw them up close on the Port Jeff branch at Huntington around 1966.
Budd tried to market an updated version of the RDC with the SPV2000 around 1980 or so when many RDCs were becoming of age for retirement. But the SPV2000 was seriously flawed in several crucial aspects and although a few were sold to Metro North, CDOT and AMTRAK - I don't believe any are in service as self powered cars today.
If anyone wants to see a picture of an RDC - just let me know and I'll email you one.
Those 'SPV2000' cars quickly earned the moniker 'Seldom Powered Vehicles' ConnDOT rebuilt some of theirs into coaches for Shore Line East service. I believe also that several of them that were lettered for Amtrak were actually owned by ConnDOT , ala MNCR equipment for the NH line.
LIRR also had turbine/electric cars for a time, very similar in design to the M1s. There's a model of one in the transit exhibit in GCT.
-Hank
The Budd RDC could be considered a diesel PCC, in that many RxRs wanted something less expensive to run light passenger loads between cities, but also wanted something NEW in an last dich effort to try & draw folks back to them. I have seen singles doing New Haven to Hartford. For a long time the last of the NH RDS were crew shacks in the NH freight yard (you could see them from Route 91).
Does anyone know what the min cew on a single was, i.e. one or two ?
P.S. many are alive & well at museums, e.g. Cape May
Mr t__:^)
In the US, two. IIRC at least one Canadian line ran them one-man for a time - can't remember the name, it was a regional that ran in eastern Canada.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
'Does anyone know what the min crew on a single was, i.e. one or two?'
The Reading Company, which had two RDC's (#9151 & #9152) that could go out on the line solo, were able to be operated with just an engineer. Two or more RDC's was a train, and the agreement with the BLE was that a diesel train would have an engineer and fireman. In the back, a conductor and trainman (brakeman) was the rule per agreement with the UTU.
-Jim K.
Chicago
In Syracuse, Ontrack (NYS&W) runs their RDC's engineer only.
Don't forget - an RDC also appeared on 'X-Files'. 8-)
As for the RDC's. N.J. Transit runs a single car to Princeton Univ. nicknamed Dinky that can be considered an electic powered RDC. It runs with a crew of two, engineer and conductor. You can catch it at Princeton Station.
I was in that area two summers ago for a couple of AAA games at Trenton. Also did a tour of Princeton, but Dinky was at the other end when we went by (the other three in my group aren't rail buffs, so we didn't hang around).
Mr t__:^)
Sarge, I believe that there is still a tourist railroad near Bellfonte PA that still runs an RDC under its own power. It is an RDC-1. I rode it about six years ago, and really enjoyed it.There were five different models IIRC.
RDC-1 Seating for 90 passengers
RDC-2 Seating for 71 passengers and a separate baggage compartment
RDC-3 Seating for 49 passengers and a baggage and mail compartment
RDC-4 No passengers, just baggage and mail
RDC-9 Seating for 94 passengers. This one was unique in that it had a single diesel engine but no engineer controls, it had to be coupled to another RDC for operational purposes.
They could operate just like a subway car, as a single car or a number of cars in multiple unit operation. The big difference was that they were diesel powered instead of from third rail.
The Roger Williams RDC-based trainset on the New Haven had both the usual diesel power and third rail shoes to enable it to enter Grand Central.
Other RDC models included the RDC-A units (meter gauge) produced for Brazil; some were full coach, some were buffet cars. Also, the Commonwealth Engineering Group (COMENG) produced a number of RDC near-clones for service in Australia, Tasmania, and New Zealand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The Roger Williams RDC-based trainset on the New Haven had both the usual diesel power and third rail shoes to enable it to enter Grand Central.]
Eye had no idea some RDCs had 3rd rail shoes. Why would they run them to Grand Central ? Where they comming direct from Hartford, Danbury or Waterbury ? It would have seemed to make more since for them to turn around where the Overhead started ?
Mr t__:^)
It is interesting that the New York Central RR would require the New Haven RR "Roger Williams" RDC set to have third rail shoes while the NYC RDC's did not. NYC did run direct RDC service into Grand Central from the non-electrified zones by having them towed by the MU's in the electrified areas. The NH FL-9's orginally had a two position third rail shoe so that they could use enter either Grand Central or Pennsylvania Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Not sure of the logic behind it, but that's the way it was. A few more technical details, quoting from Chuck Crouse's book Budd Car: The RDC Story: "For operation in the Park Avenue tunnel leading into Grand Central Terminal, there was a 600-volt d.c. traction motor counted on the outer axle of each truck. The engineer's cab on each of the two end cars contained the usual RDC controls, plus controls for the traction motors and third rail shoes." Donald Duke and Edmund Keilty's book RDC: The Budd Rail Diesel Car states "The third-rail shoes were mounted on the inboard axles of each cab truck. ... The electric propulsion motor-gear box assemblies were nose-supported on the outboard axle of each truck. The General Electric traction motors were series-connected for 600-volt DC operation and equipped with special brushes to protect the electric motor commutation during extended diesel operation. The electric gear box was 2.72:1. ... Once the train started in regular service, it acquired the knack for throwing off the third-rail shoes when it entered the New York Central's electrified territory."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse