Is there any reason why no photographs of the R-142 have been published yet? All images released thus far are computer created images, which may not be what the real thing is. I am not totally positive, but I believe that a fraction of an interior shot was published a few months back in METRO Magazine. An interior fixtures manufacturer had an advertisement with a (partial) photograph of an interior of a transit car, and the seating and the part of the window that are visible in the photo sure looked like it would be the specs of a NYC subway car. The seats were a shade of red, sort of like the R-27/30.
Neither Bombardier nor Kawasaki has chosen to release official photos and no railfan has been able to get a shot. If I had, I know I'd be chomping at the bit to get them on the web.
Patience, though. We'll all see them soon enough.
Who knows. We may be sorry to see the Redbirds go after trying the R-142's and might end up wishing we'd NEVER seen them.
I was driving east in Branford on US 1 near the intersection of CT 142 when I heard a train horn and when I looked to the area where the Amtrak tracks are located I saw an AEM 7 headed east with some other equipment in tow. Has Amtrak energized the wire or were they just testing the catenary?
Most (but I don't think all) of the wire between New Haven and Boston has been energized. Did you get a look at the train's consist? I remember seeing news photos in the last month of an AEM7 running with some Amfleet coaches testing out some of the newly electrified catenary.
if the AEM-7 was the lead locomotive, had it's headlight on, and was making the typical AEM-7 blower/farting noises, then I'd say it was the real thing. I didn't hear that the wires were on that low, and amtrak seems to be pretty good at PR with this since I guess they're trying to save at least some face in light of Acela's not so spectacular intro...
The NEC is not going to be 100% Acela. Acela trainsets will replace the current Metroliner service, but the standard Amfleet/AEM-7 trains will continue to operate local (Keystone and Clocker) service. The Amfleet cars will be completely refurbished inside and be given a new Acela paintjob (I've already seen a couple in the new paint).
when will the 63rd street tunnel open and whats going to happen? how will it work??
And the winner of the most asked question on Subtalk goes to ...
when will the 63rd street tunnel open and whats going to happen? how will it work??
will there be any new lines or connecting lines opening ??
The 63rd Street connector and the various potential lines have been discussed at great, great length on this board.
Search the board over the last few weeks for "63rd Street tunnel" or something like that, and you'll get lots and lots of information, speculation, theories and so on.
Since I've never been on Amtrak north of NYC, I'd like to know this...
What was the whole electric story? There was no catenary between New Haven and Boston? Did electric trains turn back there or did they go another way?
They did the infamous "At New Haven, we switch locomotives from electric to diesel" thing. The Springfield section gets torn off there too, but for some reason i can't understand, it's at the FRONT of the train, thus meaning it gets out before the Boston section, ie, the boston one gets hung up for a while there. I think the New haven ran FL-9s to Boston, but amtrak uses AEM-7s and F-40s above New haven. When the new wires are done, they'll be running right up to boston, and NH will be just another stop. The Springfield trains are going to become a shuttle run by someone...
I'm simply amazed that amtrak took SO LONG to do this. They should have wired up to Boston in the 70's...
This is actually a truly great rail trivia question for anyone who's ever ridden Amtrak on the NE Corridor between NYC & Boston: What historic event interrupted electrification of the whole DC-NY-Boston corridor at New Haven?
Answer, as this group undoubtedly knows, is World War I. Rail novices will gasp at the idiocy of the 80-year delay. Impress your friends, try it today .
FYI the Springfield section is the last 2 cars of a train. I take that line to get to and from school. Amtrak pulls off the AEM and puts on an F40 on the Boston section. Its pulls out then the same is done for the Springfield Section. Is Amrak really going to turn the Springfield train into a shuttle service? That would suck for me because currently enjoy the luxruy of a one seat ride. I for one will miss the power change. I think that New Haven's the last place where you can see such an event on such a large scale. I enjoy the time I have to get out, walk around, take some photos, watch the lite engines zip around, talk with the crew, etc. Also north of New Haven is the last bastion for that old work horse, the F40. No, ugly GE's for miles around. If a NH-Springfield shuttle is started, will Amtrak run it? Amtrak ownes the Springfiled Line. Also if ACELA trainsets take over the Metroliners, could the displaced AEM's find themselves on Shore Line East commuter trains. And if the AEM's take over Shore Line East service would the GP-40W's be used on the NH-Springfield shuttle, maybe as a cheeper alternitive to Amtrak? I'd love to see an AEM in New Haven colours!
I dunno, the time's I've taken it, the hartford/springfield section was the first 2 cars, though i try to just get either the Vermonter or an inland rt train.
amtrak's been getting better with the switch there, freshperson year they were AWFUL with it. They still never get to NYC on time though.
AEM-7s on the SLE? It'd be cool (so would AEM-7's on the MBTA's commuter line down the NEC...) And it'd be needed for any service extensio - the M-2s can't do 25kv. I doubt CT will do it though.
GE's on the springfield line? No thanks. The F-40s may be old and slow, but they're faster than any GE pulled train I've been on...
It wouldn't be hard to convert the M-2's to 25Kv, just need to beef up the transformers. They could rix up a few trainsets, call them M-2+ or something and run them NH-NL or all the way through to NYC.
PS. Amtrak is always "on-time" at NYC. It would be impossible to be late with all the time table padding.
/*It wouldn't be hard to convert the M-2's to 25Kv, just need to beef up the transformers. They could rix up a few trainsets, call them M-2+ or
something and run them NH-NL or all the way through to NYC.
*/
They'd need a tap changer to get below about a mile north of NH. The voltage doesn't go to 25kv until you're a bit north of New Haven. That would add yet another thing to break to what's already an obnoxiously complicated MU. I don't even know if they have the space for it under there. To go into Penn, they'd need yet another tap to handle 11kv, AND they'd have to play with the firing logic too I think. And spare M-2s aren't exactly easy to get a hold of. Be a LOT easier to just slap a CDot / MN logo onto an AEM-7 and use that.
/*
PS. Amtrak is always "on-time" at NYC. It would be impossible to be late with all the time table padding. */
I've heard Amtrak calls 2 hours late "on time". I had a nice "discussion" with the conductor about this once (guess why). I call anything 5 min past the arivval time late.
Going back a little in history the Hartfrod/Springfield branch was served by Budd RDCs ... maybe they'll string wire and run LRVs ... nah
BTW, from NH there was a third line ... a very long time ago, it was the "Airline Route" to Boston via Middletown CT, now P&W goes there, but freight only (only as far a Middletown).
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, I know that line very well, but it never amounted to much. It was only single track and there wasn't room for improvement because all the bridges (and there are a lot of nice ones) are all single track. The "Air Line" sill crosses the CT river, but the tracks end about 1/2 on the ther site. I saw them loading huge low-level nuclear waste containers from that de-comissioned plant at the rail-head in Portland about 2 weeks ago.
<< I think the New haven ran FL-9s to Boston >>
Depending upon the time period, motive power could have been a DL-109, PA-1, GP-9, CPA24-5, RS-3, RS-11 or a FL-9.
Oh DL-109, Shark Nose ?, you're realy dating yourself ... yes the NH ran a lot of unique equipment ... makes for a modelers heaven !
Mr t__:^)
Amtrak has had other considerable capital needs that were arguably more important than Boston electrification (as long as its mandate includes maintaining a long-distance network). Once Amtrak finally decided to start the project, Connecticut NIMBYs delayed it. I think it's something of a minor miracle that Amtrak has managed to actually carry out this project.
Now if only the new trainsets worked...
That's funny. I've taken Amtrak from New Rochelle to Hartford four times. Only once was the Hartford section up front. It's usually only two cars (though it was three on Thanksgiving Sunday, but even that wasn't enough) Did they change it or is it according to management preference? They really should use DMU's to Hartford and Springfield. It is a waste to have a powerful diesel locomotive pulling only two or three cars when it could be pulling trains elsewhere.
Does anyone know what the fate of the Hartford/Springfield route will be after all-electric service to Boston begins?
Any minor correction. There were four lines running east and north of New Haven:
1. The Shore Line to Boston
2. The Springfield Line
3. The Airline to Boston via Middletown and Willimantic
4. The "CANAL LINE". It branched off the Main in down town New Haven and followed the route of the old Farmington Canal. Ran to Northampton, MA. This line was abandon in some areas and the ROW turned into Greenways and hiking paths. I rode a couple of fan trips with my father and brothers back in the early 50's. The line was freight only in later years, but I imagine there was passenger service in the early days. If you want to read an interesting book pick up a copy of Connecticut Railroads.
Wouldn't the "Air Line" have been the fastest route from Boston to New York. Why didn't the New Haven make this line its main line from Boston to New York instead of the curvy Shore line?
There`s been work going on at the substation just so.of Queens plaza for some weeks now.The sidewalk in front has been excavated and as of last night(Tuesday 11-30)the structure was dark,are they tearing it down?
We've been running a couple of threads about Washington DC's WMATA so I thought you all might be interested in a article in the Nov/Dec issue of the TRADE publication "Mass Transit". "Turning the corner at WMATA" by Van Wilkins.
It's nine pages, incl. several photos of subway & bus equip. and much yada yada, but enough detail & humor to make it a pleasent read, e.g.
- Formed '67, 1st service 3/27/76 over 4.6 miles
- Current planned 103 miles by 2001
- Rail at 764 cars, avg speed 59 MPH <--- NYC TA take note !
- Bus at 1,314, mainly to feed 5 rail lines
- Many deep tunnels incl. 557 escalators
"They became a prime drainage system for rain and other surface water into the tunnels ..."
- Tips for cutomers using bills: Iron them; rub accross a metal surface; brush across your hair.
- WMATA version of Fun Pass is $5.00 good after 9:30 AM :-(
- Local gov. plans a "TransitChek" type incentive that will provide a monthly tax free $65 on gov. worker Smart Cards (SmarTrip)
- WMATA/First Union may allow customers to add value to cards via ATM
Copyright Disclaimer: Have mentioned publ. & author by name & lifted less then 400 words from article.
Mr t__:^)
How does one subscribe to this magazine?
--Mark
"Subscription rates: $48/year US, $68/yera Canada.
Mass Transit PO Box 450 Fort Atkinson, WI 53538-0450
Editor = jim.duffy@cygnuspub.com
Publisher = paul.bowers@cygnuspub.com
If you're in the mass transit industry it's free. I've found it to have one or two articles worth reading each issue (every other month). Maybe somebody figured out if we have a reason to read it we might see the adv. too ?
Mr t__:^)
The TWU demands for 30 percent raises and 20 sick days are a joke. It seems that the TA now has its own joke -- a lower raise that the commuter railroads got, even though TA workers are more productive and get paid less.
Perhaps I'd be a bad negotiator, but I think its better to make a fair offer and stick to it, or decrease it in response to the counterparty giving you a hard time. At least you don't insult them. It worked for my house and my first car. After six hours of hectoring, I bought the car for what it was worth, which is what I said it was worth. And after six months of paying interest and taxes, the seller agreed to sell her house to me for what it was worth, which is also what I said it was worth.
The raise the TA proposed (2 - 2 1/2 percent per year) is not bad per se, and can be kept as is. It would be a fair comparable for public sector workers in general.
BUT TA workers deserve an additional raise, up front, on top of it to make up for the raises they didn't get in the past, and productivity gains they've made. Given ridership and productivity gains, and two zeros, 10 percent plus is not unfair to the rest of is, if justfied this way.
Some other public sector workers will deserve such a raise, others will not. As for the commuter railroads, well, if the MTA wants a strike that's the place to take it. Crime is down and uniformed police sick leave is down, so a big raise is merited, but the schools still stink, so I'd be more interested in raising starting salaries for teachers than salaries for those who are there.
How about me? They should downsize me and hire me back as a consultant for half the money. They don't use my talents effectively anyway, and I could do much better with the rest of my time if I didn't have to be here.
Forgot to mention -- the offer was described in the Daily News. Another thing -- the TA wants to keep wages down, but is willing to pay more for health insurance. That's not progress.
Re: Work rules at WMATA (from Nov/Dec Mass Transit article) ...
"Rail operation is fully automated. The operator's normal function is ONLY to check visually and then close the doors at each station. Key elements are some 24,000 relays ... manual operation (of train vs. doors) continues while a fix is devised for the relay difficulty." "When system-wide manual control was directed, the result was excessive brake ware."
I thought the TA wants the T/O to enter the station with "authority" ...hmm they WANT excessive brake ware ????
Sounds like WMATA wants to pay for Conductors vs. T/O ? Will they move them to center of train once they get the bugs out of the automated operation ?
Mr t__:^)
First of all, if you go from two people on a train to one, that's a big productivity gain, and employees deserve a piece of it. At the very least, the one person should be paid as much as a T/O today.
My guess is the idea is to have the automated system run the train, and the operator work the doors and over-ride the system if needed. Unlike Steve, I think this could work IF you also have conductors on the platform at curved and crowded stations. One person in the front cab could handle the doors at Avenue X on the Culver, allowing a few people to get on and off a half-empty train. Grand Central on the Lex is another story.
So it is possible that technology will permit the number of T/Os plus tower opeartors plus station personnel to be substantially lower 30 years from now than today. Hopefully increased use of automated transactions will cut down on office employees as well.
For safety and customer service, however, I still want at least one person on every train and in every station at all times.
--First of all, if you go from two people on a train to one, that's a big productivity gain, and employees deserve a piece of it.--
Gotta disagree with you there. Those who provide the capital to finance the investment which creates the productivity gain are the ones who reap the benefits. In private industry, these are the owners and the stockholders. In the TA's case, it's the taxpayers and the fare-payers. The employees provide service for a fee. When the service is no longer needed, the fee disappears -- it doesn't go up.
The one person who rides along with a fully automated train should be paid in such a way that those with the skills needed are attracted to the job. Those skills are far below what the train operators and conductors have today.
All that being said, I don't think we'll see the day that the NYC subway system is fully automated. Even ignoring all of the political considerations, it's simply too complex, with too many interlockings and too much potential for delay to run a 100% automated service.
Chuck
In a market economy, if you want people to do something, you've got to give them an incentive. For the government not to reward good performance is as stupid as not punishing poor performance.
It wasn't my intention to start this conversation all over again, but in any case I personally don't agree with the logic of OPTO. Not with so many people using the system and s-o-o-o many employees it seems to me that at least two in the crew is a bare minimum !
Is that the way it's going to be ... not very likely. The MTA "suits" talk to those in other cities, so they want to do this OPTO thing. It automation, it saves union salaries, it will make points for them with Virgial Conway .... why should they not do it ... customer service, that's not one of their priorities. Pardon me, I'll get off the soap box.
Disclaimer: This is obviously not a official position by the MTA/TA/DOT or my employer.
Mr t__:^)
[--First of all, if you go from two people on a train to one, that's a big productivity gain, and employees deserve a piece of it.--
Gotta disagree with you there. Those who provide the capital to finance the investment which creates the productivity gain are the ones who reap the benefits. In private industry, these are the owners and the stockholders. In the TA's case, it's the taxpayers and the fare-payers. The employees provide service for a fee. When the service is no longer needed, the fee disappears -- it doesn't go up.
The one person who rides along with a fully automated train should be paid in such a way that those with the skills needed are attracted to the job. Those skills are far below what the train operators and conductors have today.
All that being said, I don't think we'll see the day that the NYC subway system is fully automated. Even ignoring all of the political considerations, it's simply too complex, with too many interlockings and too much potential for delay to run a 100% automated service.]
I agree with you about the employees--it seems to me that a guarantee of employment in some area at an equivalent wage would be royally generous by the standards of most businesses.
We simply can't afford, as a society or a city, to pay people to do jobs that aren't needed anymore. Technology, and the economy, are moving too quickly.
But as to operation--the complicated interlockings make the NY subway an *ideal* candidate for automation, which can slash headway, operate cars as invdividual units, alter speeds and switches instantly. We're not quite at the point where an automated sytem could provide the full range of control that a tower currently does--pushing broken trains, bypassing stations, etc.--but with time we could indeed be 99% of the way there, and any reasonably designed automatic system permits system parameters to be changed at the control center. In no case is a train operator involved, except in the very rare case where he can fix something that the automation can't--and that's very rare, indeed, because the automation can detect the same problems--stuck doors, dead motors, etc.--as an operator can, and notify the tower as appropriate.
Truth is, we need automation quickly and desperately, partly for the economies it offers--why have people doing nothing when they could be building a second avenue subway?--and partly for the huge benefits it would give us in every area of operation--things like two minute headway service at remote stations at 3AM, a seat at rush hour without new construction, much higher average speeds and throughput, greater safety, car-zoned superexpresses that take riders to and from the business districts without intermediate stops.
Sometimes things interlock in a pyramid, with one improvement leading into another. I'd say that on the transit pyramid, automation is a glorious #2--#1 being privatization, because a private company free of unrealistic union or government constraints would automate the system in a trice, leading to the benefits of automation while slashing construction and operating costs in other areas as well.
[My guess is the idea is to have the automated system run the train, and the operator work the doors and over-ride the system if needed. Unlike Steve, I think this could work IF you also have conductors on the platform at curved and crowded stations. One person in the front cab could handle the doors at Avenue X on the Culver, allowing a few people to get on and off a half-empty train. Grand Central on the Lex is another story.]
It would work fine without. For one thing, in an automated sytem there's no reason in the world to have somebody sitting in the cab--the system can do a better job of guiding the trains than an operator can. An "operator" can sit in the conductor's position. For another thing, curved and crowded stations are easily handled by TV monitors, as they already are. They can be put anywhere. And for yet another thing, the safest system would use track doors and dispense with the conductor entirely. When was the last time you heard of someone being dragged to death by an elevator? Or pushed into an elevator shaft? Cut in two, maybe, but we're talking massively incompetent maintenance there, and if you treat anything like that you'll pay . . .
[For safety and customer service, however, I still want at least one person on every train and in every station at all times.]
I still say it's much more effective to assign people according to need, e.g., to high crime areas at night. And those unatended PATH stations really are fine--you don't even notice that there's no attendant.
But I don't think we can afford to put people places just because they've always been there. It just doesn't make sense, any more than elevator operators or those key ladies they once had on every floor of a hotel.
See what I mean, they are refusing to deal with us in good faith. Precipitating a strike. They really have underestimated the level of hostility they created in the last few years!
An example: a PATH conductor, we know how small that system is. A PATH conductor makes $25.01 per hour compared to a TA conductor's $18! And we do a lot more under more difficult circumstances as well. $280 dollars a week more for a whole lot less. I have said this is not about money it's about issues. But since it has come up, this is a great way to point out the high regard our beloved MTA holds us. All the conductors in the area make at least 6 bucks an hour more than we do. So we have something to gripe about here.
So get a job with PATH. The PA is crazy to pay $25 hour for a low skilled job
Tony -- Low Skilled job -- Why don't you do it -- Fool
The point is that PATH -- and the commuter railroads -- can afford to PAT and the commuter railroads are able to pay more because of money sucked out of NYC, but your raise is coming out of your passengers' hide, not anywhere else. I'll accept that AS A RESULT OF IMPROVEMENTS IN RECENT YEARS TA workers deserve a raise, and I'm willing to pay for it. But those other agencies are sinecures, not jobs, so they are not comparable.
Its like the Cops in Nassau. Sure they get paid more, but Nassau is broke as a result. I can't wait for Pataki to figure out how to make my pay for that too.
So you've got to compare yourselves with people who earn their paycheck, and pay yours, not those cashing in on political influence.
(BTW -- before suburbanites start to claim that city residents are not funding the commuter railroads, consider this. There has been a huge increase in the share of expenses covered by the farebox at the TA, but not in the commuter railroads. If the operating subsidiaries are fiscally independent, how come the TA doesn't have a big surplus and the other agencies a big deficit? Its because a greater share of the dedicated tax and toll revenues are flowing out.)
[(BTW -- before suburbanites start to claim that city residents are not funding the commuter railroads, consider this. There has been a huge increase in the share of expenses covered by the farebox at the TA, but not in the commuter railroads. If the operating subsidiaries are fiscally independent, how come the TA doesn't have a big surplus and the other agencies a big deficit? Its because a greater share of the dedicated tax and toll revenues are flowing out.)]
As far as I know, City residents are funding the commuter railroads, and other suburban/upstate boondoggles, like crazy; the commuter railroads receive much higher subsidies from the state. But I'd love to see some actual figures on tax flow and such.
(Tax flow)
Based on analyses done by DCPs transportation division, things were pretty even steven before Pataki came in, and before the TA improved the share of the system covered by the farebox (remembers those commuter RRs serve city residents too).
Things have deteriorated since then. It isn't that suburban fares are too low, or the service is too good, its just that the cost is obscenely high (over $7.00 per ride). So while I can't blame them for trying to find efficiencies at the TA, the big waste is elsewhere. The goldbrick days may be gone at the TA, and Mr. R46 says. They live on elsewhere.
The waste is with all the TA managers and officials. All getting $85,000 to $150,000 a year plus limos and drivers. Now the new building across from Bowling Green on Broadway. How much did that building bebuild cost? This is where the waste is. Eliminate the fat cat salaries and there will be plenty of money for a decent pay raise for transit workers and for the Second Avenue subway!
[The waste is with all the TA managers and officials. All getting $85,000 to $150,000 a year plus limos and drivers. Now the new building across from Bowling Green on Broadway. How much did that building bebuild cost? This is where the waste is. Eliminate the fat cat salaries and there will be plenty of money for a decent pay raise for transit workers and for the Second Avenue subway!]
Their salaries are actually quite low for what they do, and the Second Avenue subway would cost as much as $10 billion, depending on the plan.
Why does no one ask why it will cost $10 billion? Or why those subway cars cost $2 million each? I think we're getting clobbered on the capital side.
[Why does no one ask why it will cost $10 billion? Or why those subway cars cost $2 million each? I think we're getting clobbered on the capital side.]
I agree. I'm using the RPA's estimate here, which is based on deep bore, rather than cut and cover, and a four track line, and I assume that they're taking the government factor into account, and inflating the price by 3x the actual cost.
All just a guess, of course, because I'm not a civil engineer, but I am an electrical engineer and I cringe every time I hear what the TA is paying for a new system. The Canarsie automation is a perfect example--$138,000,000, and it's supposedly a loss leader! I've really been very polite here, because THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS STUFF COSTS unless government buys it. They say it was bid competitively, but bidding for government projects begins with a fudge factor the size of the universe--and if you ever propose doing it for less, just watch what happens. We're in $1000 wrench territory, and worse.
[See what I mean, they are refusing to deal with us in good faith. Precipitating a strike. They really have underestimated the level of hostility they created in the last few years!
An example: a PATH conductor, we know how small that system is. A PATH conductor makes $25.01 per hour compared to a TA conductor's $18! And we do a lot more under more difficult circumstances as well. $280 dollars a week more for a whole lot less. I have said this is not about money it's about issues. But since it has come up, this is a great way to point out the high regard our beloved MTA holds us. All the conductors in the area make at least 6 bucks an hour more than we do. So we have something to gripe about here.]
PATH is obscenely subsidized by the Port Authority. Subway riders have reason to gripe, too, about the fact that they pay $1.50 for a ride that costs PATH customers $1.00.
Still, $25/hour would seem to me a reasonable wage--it's the low end of what we pay skilled wiring people in my own business--if it weren't for the union sillyness; after all, we don't offer lifetime employment, we don't have stupid work rules, and we can fire people who don't do an adequate job.
[Some other public sector workers will deserve such a raise, others will not. As for the commuter railroads, well, if the MTA wants a strike that's the place to take it. Crime is down and uniformed police sick leave is down, so a big raise is merited, but the schools still stink, so I'd be more interested in raising starting salaries for teachers than salaries for those who are there.]
Yes--I think we should be worrying about paying teachers what the market requires rather than paying others what it doesn't.
The LIRR raise is an obscenity; as usual Pataki favored his constituents rather than doing what's right.
Does anyone know how many passengers an M-1 or M-2 car will seat?
Has anyone tried using a Funpass in PATH?
I tried it - it didn't work.
Did you think that it would?
-Dave
Didn't someone post a message some time back claiming that a weekly pass did work?
Exactly so - that's why I tried it.
I don't believe the trains are Cubic (NJT buses are). Someday the MetroCard may extend to NJ, but not for 1.50 with no additional cost.
I can see a extra fare or milage based cost, but probally not until the Smart Card replaces the dip/swipe version. The MTA would also have to change it's "only we can collect the money" attitude.
Mr t__:^)
I had someone come to my bootgh and claim their card did not work. I quickly checked their card visually and inserted into the computer which advised that the card was invalid class (error code 45). I checked the cartd and noticed it wasd a Chicago card.
That's because it was a Pepsi card vs. a Coke card ... seriously these cards are starting to look more and more alike (same mfg., similar advertizments, etc.).
Mr t__:^)
Can't blame the guy for trying!!
Remember when the Garden State Parkway Token worked in the turnstile?? hehe
MetroCards don't work on the CTA system, either.
But I figured it was worth a try. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I once used a $15 MetroCard on the PATH at WTC. It said I had 50 rides remaining on it. But when I tried using it again at Newark, it wouldn't work. And a cop was coming over to check what was wrong with it. That was back in 1994. I don't know now in 1999.
By the way, PATH doesn't have their own fun pass.
12/04/99
How can that be? PATH's farecard is rigid paper. Metrocard is plastic. Their turnstiles accept farecards and most times return them. You mean to tell me their turnstiles accepted the Metrocard?
Bill Newkirk
A co-worker who lives in Brooklyn Heights asked why the A train was screwed up today -- long wait for a packed train. I guessed that whenever there is a problem like that it has to do with the Rockaways -- perhaps a frozen switch due to wind-blown freezing water near the trestle. Anyone have direct knowledge of what went on this morning.
There were no major incidents on the A line this AM. There was one train where a customer was holding doors and that caused several trains to be backed up behind it. Sorry there's no more to it than that.......
(Service delay due to passengers holding doors).
Doesn't take much these days, does it? Too bad there aren't cameras to take these guy's pictures. They could then be printed with the caption "this selfish jerk delayed thousands of people by several minutes on the morning of __ ___)
when do the r38s run all the way to far rockway statring from the 207 th
street station ?? do you have to wait
until 300 pm for rush hour service ??
You just have to wait and look out for one.Any interval can have either an R44 or R38.
That's true. I've had to let as many as four or five trains of R-44s go by before getting a train of R-38s. Sometimes you just have to be patient.
They've been doing track work (I assume) on the Jamaica Bay trestle late nights and middays recently--maybe it wasn't entirely shipshape in time for the morning rush?... I came in Sunday night at JFK to find I had to take a bus to Rockaway Blvd; realized I'd forgotten a bag at the airport; went back out this morning, and found they were running shuttle trains from Rockaway Blvd (some even signed "H".) I've spent a lot more time than I expected this week on cold, windy platforms in Queens...
Some parts of the A line need to be fixed. If it isn't done, then there is is risk of repairing it during the height of the rush hour.
In the Daily News, the LIRR is looking to build a station in the Sunnyside Yards. This station is part of the East Side access study and will be the last stop in Queens before Grand Central. If everything goes according to plan, construction will begin in 2002 and last for eight years??
3TM
54St. Transfer to R and V trains down on the lower level. The Q18 bus on the street level. G train making local stops to Little Neck Pkwy. The next stop will be 61St. Step in and stand clear.....
Although the Sunnyside station is proposed as part of the LIRR GCT project, I believe it would situated west of where the new connection will be to go to GCT. So, it would be used only for trains headed for Penn Station.
How long are the platforms at Penn Station?
12/01/99
A new LIRR station in Sunnyside yard? Who will use it....Amtrak employees?
Bill Newkirk
I think that they're expecting those who work in the Citibank building out there to use it and perhaps expecting some additional development in that area. I think they're looking at it as an "If you build it, they will come" scenario, without Shoeless Joe. I don't agree with them.
Chuck
Many Subway and El lines were built out into farmland in the middle of nowhere. All of these areas suffered from development.
When the fiscal crisis in the 70 hit, why didnt NYCTA start slashing service? If you look at a late 70's map there was a lot of useless service being provided. why didnt they consolidate service in order to save money and keep the consolidated service running better?
They did cut service in the late 70's. Many lines that had full service 24/7 were scaled back. The AA stopped running from 1 AM to 5 AM. The B, GG, and N service became shuttle operations late nights which forced the A and F trains to provide local service in Manhattan and Queens respectively. Also since the N became a shuttle that eliminated 24hr express service on the Broadway BMT. Once upon a time there was 24/7 express service the trunk lines in Manhattan as well as the Queens IND. Today the only 24/7 express train is the D, and I'd bet it's days as a 24/7 express are numbered too.
Wayne
why do u think the d's days as an express are numbered? i think they have to keep the d running express it makes no sense to run that train local at night.
Considering the fact that it's only 2 local stops that the D skips, and that the 63rd. St shuttle runs local late at night, there is no need to run the D ocal.
What about along CPW?
3TM
68St. The next station is 74St. Connection to the Q47 to LGA. Stand Clear........
With the A running local during the late hours, the D has the CPW express tracks all to itself. It doesn't have to merge with the A. Besides, the R-68s need all the help they can get. Making the D run local at night would make it even more tedious than it is now.
Other 70s cutbacks included dropping the EE and K routes as well as the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle. IMHO, that shuttle was an extravagance, as South Ferry isn't all that far from Bowling Green. Just up the block, as a matter of fact.
The new trend seems to be two local services and no expresses on the trunk lines late at night. The D running express on CPW is the exception. If they follow the trend, the D will run local from the Bronx to Columbus Circle during midnight hours. It won't stop at 23rd or 14th because there will already be two local services there. Which means the only express tracks operating 24/7 will be the 6th Ave. express tracks that first opened in 1967.
[why do u think the d's days as an express are numbered? i think they have to keep the d running express it makes no sense to run that
train local at night.]
You're probably right, but I never expected the NYCTA to eliminate late night express service on the #2 either - so i figure the D can't be too far behind. I'd be happy if the D remains a 24/7 express.
Wayne
As planed ,the 'Y'train was the main letter code for this line.If this is so , what would the others be for the branch lines [63 st,Dyre Ave.,etc;]be. Also,does anybody think the MTA would ever finish the Acher Avenue route to south Jamaica via the LIRR Atlatic branch.
Does anyone think some of the IND SECOND SYSTEM lines [worth st.,utica ave.etc]could be built.
The Archer route to South Jamaica probably will never be built due to political considerations, (LIRR vs. subway). The IRS Second System is pure fantasy at this point. Right now all the concentration is on the 2nd Ave. Stubway, and most of us will probably be retired before that comes into service.
This 'stubway'will not be worth the money [our money,by the way]wasted on it.Oh sure,it will be nice, but if it's not built as planed who will really use it.
It won't help the Lexington riders because it won't be in the Grand Central area nor lower east side. In other words,the 2 ave route won't be in the C.B.D.. This 'stubway' may sound like a good idea to some ,but dont let the MTA hoodwink you.We paid for a full 2 ave route with branchs years ago.Why should we as tax payers pay for this ghost subway line over and over and get 5 stations,only one connection at one end ,and no Bronx,Queens or Brooklyn service.
This new route should be constructed as planned or give us our money BACK.
Oh, I fully agree with you. This stubway idea is a disgrace. The city floated a bond in the 1950's to build the 2nd Ave Line and spent the mony on other things. I'm only stating what they are going to do, not what we want or what makes any sense.
Take the AirTrain being built at JFK. It won't give a one seat ride to Manhattan, its not compatable with the subway, and the proposed "el" over the Van Wyke will make a nightmarish traffice situation even worse. Even the politicians who supported it don't think it is such a great idea, but they decided a poor plan is worse than no plan. It is thinking like this which is why our transportation network is 50 years behind where it should be.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
This 'stubway'will not be worth the money [our money,by the way]wasted on it.Oh sure,it will be nice, but if it's not built as planed who will really use it.
It won't help the Lexington riders because it won't be in the Grand Central area nor lower east side. In other words,the 2 ave route won't be in the C.B.D.. This 'stubway' may sound like a good idea to some ,but dont let the MTA hoodwink you.We paid for a full 2 ave route with branchs years ago.Why should we as tax payers pay for this ghost subway line over and over and get 5 stations,only one connection at one end ,and no Bronx,Queens or Brooklyn service.
This new route should be constructed as planned or give us our money BACK.
Oh, I fully agree with you. This stubway idea is a disgrace. The city floated a bond in the 1950's to build the 2nd Ave Line and spent the mony on other things. I'm only stating what they are going to do, not what we want or what makes any sense.
Take the AirTrain being built at JFK. It won't give a one seat ride to Manhattan, its not compatable with the subway, and the proposed "el" over the Van Wyke will make a nightmarish traffice situation even worse. Even the politicians who supported it don't think it is such a great idea, but they decided a poor plan is worse than no plan. It is thinking like this which is why our transportation network is 50 years behind where it should be.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
The MTA probably feels, 1-Let them take the LIRR from East of Jamaica or why do you think we put Express Busses there, so you can get to the City without a transfer. Forget it. It most likely never happen
They might eventually run the D local north of 59th St. at some time, but D service from 34th to W4th will almost certainly remain express.
Yes, I agree - it would make absolutely no sense to put the D on the 6 Ave local tracks only to put it back on the express tracks a minute or 2 later, but then again we are talking about the TA here. Being that the E and 2 trains are now late night local - it would not suprise me if they make the D a local between 145th Street and 59th Street.
Wayne
The 6th Ave. express tracks lead directly to the Manhattan Bridge, so it makes sense to keep the D as it is now along 6th Ave.
It is doubtful they will ever make the D a Local anywhere in Manhatten. They have the A to run Local on CPW
They also have the 1 to run local on Seventh Avenue.
That didn't stop them.
"They also have the 1 to run local on Seventh Avenue.
That didn't stop them."
It didn't stop them from putting me on the local tracks either.
SHAME ON THE MTA!
N Broadway Local
These are two different kettles of fish. The 1 has run local since around 1960, when all IRT trains continuing due north along Broadway past 96th St. were made locals. The N has been stuck on the local tracks in Manhattan since the south side tracks on The Money Pit closed.
I got the impression that the E being local is only temporary; due to the construction work over there. When the 63rd St connection is finished, they'll probably restore it.
I don't see any reason it shouldn't be permanent. I think that before when they ran the G to 179th just so they could run the F to 21 Street was stupid.
The G is useless.
As for running the D local on CPW, good idea, but on Sixth Avenue, you already have two locals.
No, the E running local in Queens at night is going to be a permanent service change.
I do not want to start another thread but what will happens when the 63St connector opens? Will the E still go local?????
3TM
82St. Transfer to the Q32 to Penn Sta. Connection to the Q33 to LGA. The next station will be 89St. Connection to the Q19B. Stand Clear..........
Probably, for the same reasons the 2 and 6 now run local late at night. If I lived in Queens, I'd rather have locals running every 10 minutes then both express and local service every 20 minutes.
I assume the S will be eliminated and the F will return to 63 Street and continue on to 179th. Then, the D might be rerouted to stop at 14th and 23rd for connection with the L.
It wouldn't make sense to run the D local down 6th Ave. just for the sake of making two additional stops. Then again, the TA has had a history of doing things which make no sense.
At the same time, we can only speculate as to what service patterns will be implemented once the 63rd St. connector opens.
A safe bet is that the F will run through it late at night. I dont see any other 24 hour/7 day a week line runing through 63rd. St. to Queens.
The D may yet keep it's 24/7 express service. On the run along 6th Avenue there are 2 local services operating overnight -- the F and the Queensbridge to 2nd Avenue shuttle. So there's already local service at 14th and 23rd every 10 minutes.
On the CPW local part of the line, there's little demand for overnight service any more frequently than every 20 minutes.
Chuck
And that’s not all. Some lines were eliminated outright, namely the Bowling Green - South Ferry and Culver shuttles, #6 service to South Ferry, and the EE and K lines.
They did slash service during the fiscal crisis. For example:
1975: elimination of the Culver shuttle
1976: elimination of the KK and EE service. N service extended beyond 57th to compensate for the lost EE service in Queens
1977: Closing of the 168th, 160th and Supthin Blvd stations on the Jamaica Ave. el. Elimination of the Bowling Green shuttle.
They did slash service during the fiscal crisis. For example:
1975: elimination of the Culver shuttle
1976: elimination of the KK and EE service. N service extended beyond 57th to compensate for the lost EE service in Queens
1977: Closing of the 168th, 160th and Supthin Blvd stations on the Jamaica Ave. el. Elimination of the Bowling Green shuttle.
Not all N service ran from Coney Island to Forest Hills. A lot of the N service that ran in Queens ran to Whitehall St., not Coney Island.
Some N trains were turned at Whitehall St. during rush hours, which essentially provided a direct replacement for the EE. During that period, N trains ran local in Manhattan during rush hours against the flow of traffic (southbound AM, northbound PM), which I frankly didn't understand.
The closing of the outer end of the Jamaica line had little to do with the fiscal crisis. There was a lengthy discussion of this not too long ago, so I won't repeat anything here.
Ahhh, but they did.
Previous posters have already listed some of the lines that were cut back or discontinued outright.
Trains were shortened during mid-day and nighttime hours to save on electricity costs.
But besides all that, the TA was considering cutbacks in a big way. In 1975, the TA considered cuting nighttime service much more drastically that what actually happened. although some of these things still happened ....
- All nighttime route duplication would end. (i.e. no 4,5, 6 trains up Lexington Avenue)
- No nighttime expresses at all. (The D still runs express at night).
- The following services would be replaced by buses: Fulton St service between Euclid Ave and Lefferts Blvd as well as the Rockaways, Broadway (Brooklyn) El service end to end (168th St at the time), Myrtle Ave line to Metrop'n Ave, B & F service in Brooklyn (but I don't know how much of these lines would have been cut back).
When word of this got out, the reaction to it was swift and angry. The TA initially denied it, then admitted it was considering this.
--Mark
What is the Number cause of subway Accidents becuase accidents do happen but what causes them?
Every single accident in mass transportation since the Titanic can, at least in part, be linked to human failure. On the NYCT system, everything is designed against a 'single-point failure'. This means that the failure of one component in any system should not result in an accident. What usually happens is either straight-out human failure (like 14th St.) or a combination of things (like 135th Street).
[Every single accident in mass transportation since the Titanic can, at least in part, be linked to human failure. On the NYCT system, everything is designed against a 'single-point failure'. This means that the failure of one component in any system should not result in an accident. What usually happens is either straight-out human failure (like 14th St.) or a combination of things (like 135th Street).]
There are also those bums who pee on the third rail . . .
There are many long transfer passages in the NY Subway system, many just as long or longer than the ones you find in airports. Airports have figured out that a good alternative to walking these long passages is a moving sidewalk. The MTA could install these moving sidewalks in high pedestrain traffic areas with long passageways. Just like in airports there'd still be a choice to walk but the quickest way will usually be on the moving sidewalk. The first two locations that should have them are the 42nd St. Stations. The transfer between the 7 and the D and the transfer between the A and the N. Does anyone have other stations that should have them? Has the MTA ever thought about this?
That would be great, however...
I've seen two types of moving walkways:
One kind is essentially a huge rubber belt you stand on. This is great until some vandal takes a knife to it... (not as big of a problem in airports, of course)
The other type uses metal plates - essentially a flat escalator, but we all know the MTA's track record with those...
So I think it's a great idea, but not very practical for now.
[That would be great, however...
I've seen two types of moving walkways:
One kind is essentially a huge rubber belt you stand on. This is great until some vandal takes a knife to it... (not as big of a problem in airports, of course)
The other type uses metal plates - essentially a flat escalator, but we all know the MTA's track record with those...
So I think it's a great idea, but not very practical for now.]
The height of some of these passageways is limited and they may contain jogs. It seems to me that that would place some interesting constraints on the design of a system, which would have to have practically zero clearance from the ground--wheels on the sides, with plates hanging down from them, turning at the end, and running down the other side.
Main problem: how do you accomodate the fact that most of the width of the passage must be used for unidirectional travel during rush hours? It can be done easily if there's plenty of vertical clearance, but if there isn't it's a more interesting problem.
The other obvious candidate is 14th St. between 6th and 7th Aves. But there are quite a few doors along that passageway with various TA offices, so there would need to be access for those. Are they on both sides of the passageway or just one side?
[The other obvious candidate is 14th St. between 6th and 7th Aves. But there are quite a few doors along that passageway with various TA offices, so there would need to be access for those. Are they on both sides of the passageway or just one side?]
Don't remember, but a narrow walkway would do the trick.
A moving sidewalk would make excellent sense in that passageway between the A/C/E station at 42nd Street and Times Square. But durring construction (which of course will take an eternity), the passageway would have to be considerably narrowed. That would be too much of a headache.
Moving sidewalk in NEW YORK CITY??? Come on now, the place where everyone is rushing around, head down get out of my way you slow poke tourist??
You can say that if this is installed that ANY NEW YORKER would actually stand on it and be "moved" along. NO WAY. We can't even be like the DC Metro on escalators, Stand On the Right, Walk On the Left not to meantion the TA track (pardon the pun) record with the beasts. Moving Sidewalks in NY, No way Jose.
There are many reasons why moving sidewalks might not work, but to address standing vs. walking:
The MTA should definitely do more to get people to "stand right, walk left" on escalators. I know London has signs all over the place advising people to do so. NYC needs that. I think it would help tremendously with traffic flow in busy stations.
Trouble is that most people in london prefer to stand up the escalator. During peak times, this reduces capacity, so that a couple of train loads of people at a busy station can result in a queue to leave the platform. Occasionally, LT staff stand at the bottom of escalators, asking passengers to stand both sides.
12/03/99
Another reason the moving sidewalk won't work , again vandalism. I can see vandals hitting the "Emergency Stop" button just like they do with the escalators. And when it stops , people resume walking just like before the moving sidewalk "concept".
As far as walking up and down the stairs keeping right , the TA has installed some "arrow" signs that aren't to clear. Besides this is New York , people usually ignore signs and do what they want anyway.
Bill Newkirk
[Another reason the moving sidewalk won't work , again vandalism. I can see vandals hitting the "Emergency Stop" button just like they do with the escalators. And when it stops , people resume walking just like before the moving sidewalk "concept".
As far as walking up and down the stairs keeping right , the TA has installed some "arrow" signs that aren't to clear. Besides this is New York , people usually ignore signs and do what they want anyway.]
There would be relatively few moving sidewalks. They could easily be monitored by cameras with VTRS and watched at random--something that should be done in those passageways during off hours anyway.
Actually, capacity will not improve unless everybody walks at a speed faster than the escalator, and most don't. Once, I went down the escalator the wrong way because some hooligan set both escalators from the 7th to 9th floor at school to go up. I had to run faster than I normally do down stairs to make it down. And people are slower going up. If I enter a crowded escalator going up with no room on the right for me, I'm standing on the left, I don't care about all these people and their precious 15 seconds.
Of course, where I do almost all my escalator riding, at school, standing is on both sides if the escalator is working, with those who want to walk excusing their way down (or up, which I never do on escalators).
Then good if people walk! People will then walk FASTER!
[A moving sidewalk would make excellent sense in that passageway between the A/C/E station at 42nd Street and Times Square. But durring construction (which of course will take an eternity), the passageway would have to be considerably narrowed. That would be too much of a headache.]
The way the MTA does things, yes. The way technical things are done in business, it would be in, up, and running in a week--completely modular construction, pre-tested, with the components segments ready to be carted in and bolted in place by the numbers.
[There are many long transfer passages in the NY Subway system, many just as long or longer than the ones you find in airports. Airports have figured out that a good alternative to walking these long passages is a moving sidewalk. The MTA could install these moving sidewalks in high pedestrain traffic areas with long passageways. Just like in airports there'd still be a choice to walk but the quickest way will usually be on the moving sidewalk. The first two locations that should have them are the 42nd St. Stations. The transfer between the 7 and the D and the transfer between the A and the N. Does anyone have other stations that should have them? Has the MTA ever thought about this?]
As with so many things, the MTA seems content to avoid the issue. You're right, it's a natural--a perfect example of how a small investment would significantly improve service for many.
They could start with the abandoned 33rd St passage connecting PATH with Penn Sta. It is already closed, so there would be no disruption. Since it would be moving, the old problem of the homeless would be eliminated. I often hope that is what they are doing behind those walls, and that it would suddenly open for service one day.
[They could start with the abandoned 33rd St passage connecting PATH with Penn Sta. It is already closed, so there would be no disruption. Since it would be moving, the old problem of the homeless would be eliminated. I often hope that is what they are doing behind those walls, and that it would suddenly open for service one day.]
That makes a lot of sense.
I don't remember that passage myself (which has me a bit mystified, since I used to go from the 7th Avenue to PATH occasionally as a kid), but I hear it's not all underground, and it's pretty sleazy . . .
As I said in an earlier sequence, the TA needs to improve its speed. I looked up a schedule and measured it against the Brighton Line today, and guess what. The Q from Brighton Beach to Church is scheduled to average just over 20 miles per hour. That's the easy part of an express, before the stall at DeKalb and the Crawl over the bridge. Ride a D and you get just 15 miles per hour over the easy stretch. That won't do.
Larry. One easy solution to speeding up service would be to eliminate most of the stops. I just tried to get a schedule of the Q off the MTA site, but the schedules were not available. What were the figures you used? I would guess that the distance between Brighton Beach and Church is about 4 miles. If you figured about 20 mph, then I would imagine the running time is 12 minutes. How much of that time is spent in slowing into a station, station dwell time, and accelerating to speed. With 4 stops, I would guess that's at least 4 or 5 minutes.
If you want to study the D train, there's 11 stops between Brighton Beach and Church.
I just found an old copy of the Little Red Book--The Complete Street Guide to Brooklyn from 1962. In the back they had the different subway lines listed with running times from one terminal to the other. Back then the Brighton Express ran from Ditmars Blvd to Brighton Beach a distance of about 19 miles in 57 minutes. Which breaks down to about 20 miles per hour. They show the running time from Church to Brighton Beach as being about 13.5 minutes. They also show the Brighton Local doing that distance in 17.5 minutes. How much of a difference are the times now?
(1962 running time Brighton Beach Ave to Church: 17.5 minutes local, 12 minutes express).
That's really interesting. I have the paper schedule in my office, so I don't have the Q either here at home, but I think it was about 12 minutues. I was able to snatch the D off the website (hit stop just before it finishes loading) and it is scheduled to take 18 minutes over the same distance. So I guess in this stretch things aren't any worse than 30 years ago.
But they aren't any better either.
I recently took Amtrak from Philadelphia to Wilson, North Carolina.
The 550 mile trip took EIGHT long hours. Cars on the highway parallel
to us were flying by. A few monthe ago I rode the A train from Port
Authority to Schermerhorn. We flew! Amtrak has to get off freight
tracks and go underground.
68.75 mph average speed is not bad at all considering stops and all
Even in a car that is average speed over the speed limit with no stops.
When I drove bus over the road in the mid 70's the ICC let us run about 500 miles in 10 hours. or a max average speed of 50 mph.
An average train speed of 68.75 ist bad at all. What is the running time from DC to NY right now on AMTRAK and how many miles is it?
The fastest Metroliner currently on the schedules takes 2h59 between NY and DC, over 225 miles. That's an average speed of 75.4 mph, with up to 7 intermediate stops.
A typical NortheastDirect train takes maybe 3h30 between NY and DC, for an average speed of 64.3 mph, with up to 10 intermediate stops.
How much does a ticket cost for round trip between NYC and DC?
3TM
74St. Connection to the Q47 to LGA. Next station will be 82St. Transfer to the Q32 to Penn Sta. Connection to the Q33 to LGA. Stand Clear
How much does a ticket cost for round trip between NYC and DC?
A lot!
A quick check at reservations.amtrak.com says:
$116 one-way on the Metroliner
$71 one-way on all-reserved NortheastDirect
$65 one-way on unreserved NortheastDirect
Round-trip fares are just two one-way fares. Metroliners are cheaper on weekends; NortheastDirect trains are more expensive on Fridays, Sundays, and busy travel days around holidays.
Amtrak fares are so wacked. For me its $40 from Meriden to Philly, $40 New Haven to Philly, $40 Meriden to Newark and $40 Newark to Philly. Its like the fares are arbitrary.
8 hrs for 550 miles? I would say that is pretty good.
And you're complaining?!?! Our North Carolina home is near Bunn, about 25 miles west of Rocky Mount, so I've ridden the RMT-NWK run many times. It's a heck of a lot less stressful than driving all the way, which from our Eatontown, New Jersey house is 465 miles and takes about 8 hours 15 minutes with one brief stop (hey, I drink a lot of RC cola, what can I say, but the van can go nearly 700 highway miles without a gas stop). Yes, it takes longer overall, simply because I have to go quite a bit out of the way - Little Silver to Newark on NJT, then to Rocky Mount on Amtrak, and then the last 25 miles home by car - but I don't have the stress of driving I-95 either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's no question that speeds could and should be boosted a tad.
During my last visit in October, I watched the speedometer during a southbound run between 34th and 14th Sts. on an A train of R-38s. We sailed past 23rd St. at about 36-37 mph, and got up to 40-41 on the downhill sprint to 14th St. Quite frankly, I thought there was very little difference from what the R-10s used to do on that same stretch.
I'm happy to report there was a significant first as well: I took a northbound A from W. 4th St. right after checking into my hotel, and wonder of wonders we passed 23rd St. at 25 mph. I don't think any northbound A train I ever took did more than 20 mph for reasons I will never understand. Even the R-10s used to crawl past 23rd St. The few R-1/9 trains I rode along that stretch moaned along at F# below middle C, which was still faster than any train of R-10s!
CPW was another story. No comparison between the olden days and today.
I have a design for a perfect subway. To have seating like a R-38, to have plastic windows (Recycleable, easy to clean, harder to notice scratches.) Double-sided trip cocks so that the car run under both IRT and BMT lines. Special Little Bridges so that crossing cars can be less dangerous. Disc Brakes for better braking. Digital Signs like on the R-44 or R-40 (I forgot which one) With the digital sign how much time to the next station (estimated time)Easier control panel for Conductoring and for driving. A special component if the signal is clear ahead the train can be started and through special signal can tell the train at which speed it can travel and the you will have a car that will travel at the specific and not loose control, and there is the perfect car. Whatever that you think can be fixed or improvements let me know.
Also speed and comfort in the same car.
Wall to wall carpeting, plush cushion seats, waiter/waitress service, cable TV and Internet access.
Well I can dream can't I?
AS LONG AS IT HAS A """RAILFAN WINDOW"""" REPEAT!!!!
A rail fan window !!!! thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com
Wall to wall carpeting, plush cushion seats, waiter/waitress service, cable TV and Internet access.
Well I can dream can't I?
What about live entertainment and free drinks?
Well I would assume the waiter/waitress service would supply the free drinks. As for entertainment, use your imagination.
I dunno about waitress service--they might have trouble getting back and forth on the train with your free drink at the evening rush, when you need it most. How about a bar next to the railfan window?
On my perfect train, there would be no standing. Everyone would have a nice plush sheet, and every car would be a bar car. The train ride would be so smooth that not a drop would every be spilled. All trains will be on time so that you can set your watch to it.
They could install a central beer system with large kegs under the cars and taps located convienantly throughout the cars. A rack of unbreakable stiens would be available by the doors. I have heard that this system has had geat sucess in many of our nations Frat houses.
They could install a central beer system with large kegs under the cars and taps located convienantly throughout the cars. A rack of unbreakable stiens would be available by the doors.
Such a subway car should be kinown as the Boozer Cruiser!
12/04/99
Joisey Mike,
If these cars were like unitized R-68's that a had a full width cab on one end , the opposite end cab could be a bathroom....Well you know about beer and.....
Bill Newkirk
If these cars were like unitized R-68's that a had a full width cab on one end , the opposite end cab could be a bathroom....Well you know about beer and.....
Yeah! and also a beer tap inside the bathroom with another supply of steins.
12/05/99
BMT Lines,
[Yeah! and also a beer tap inside the bathroom with another supply of steins]
I guess this would work perfect on the (7) line in the STEINway tunnel. Har Har Har Har yuk yuk yuk !!!!!
Bill Newkirk
[Yeah! and also a beer tap inside the bathroom with another supply of steins]
I guess this would work perfect on the (7) line in the STEINway tunnel. Har Har Har Har yuk yuk yuk !!!!!
Bill Newkirk
Also on the G and R lines, which stop at STEINway st.
OK, a rim shot for each joke.
The bathroom could pose quite a problem. I've only used the bathroom on a train once and was shocked when I went to lift the toilet seat and saw the tracks going by below inside. I don't even want to consider what would happen if, by chance, using the bathroom completed an electrical circuit between the third rail. OUCH!
Hey, if you'd had enough beer, you'd never notice!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Plus, you'd never notice (or care) that your train wasn't going much faster than 30 mph.
The dual tripcocks are useless, car width is a bigger concern, and for the cost, one can universalize CBTC. I'd like R-44 seats that are cushioned, and a smooth ride without excessive brake noise like on some Redbirds (but we need the pleasant train sounds to stay to drown out walkman noise and annoying voices) and of course, the only mod in the seat plan of this vs. the R-44 is that there's to be a railfan seat.
I think the seating should be like the low-density car of the SOAC.
Where is that???
Where is that???
Here's the photo:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/soac/soac6.jpg
here's the page:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/soac/
When I asked "Where is that?" I meant what city? I had no idea that was in NY but I learn something new everyday on this site!!!
When I asked "Where is that?" I meant what city? I had no idea that was in NY but I learn something new everyday on this site!!!
The information was right on the link I provided.
The SOAC was an experimental train of "State of the Art Cars" that the United States Department of Transportation sponsored in the 1970s. It was a two car train that ran on the NYC Subway and in Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, and elsewhere. The two and only cars are now at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. The SOAC cars were 75 feet long and 9.75 feet wide, and ran on IND/BMT lines in New York City. Maximum speed was approx. 80 MPH.
Information not provided by nycsubway.org is that it was built and ran in 1974 in regular passenger service on the following lines in this order:
D, N, A, E. They had carpeted floors. One car, the low density car had soft plushy seats. The other, the high density car was like a carpeted R-44 with padded seats. BTW, even though the cars were capable of 80 MPH, I don't recall them going over 55. This was undoubtedly due to track and signal constraints on our antiquated system. The SOAC was nice. I was in college at the time. I was pretty much a regular on it after classes. I even have a pewter SOAC tie clip that I received courtesy of the cars' manufacturer, Boeing-Vertol.
Personally, I'd take a BMT Standard with air-conditioning and leave it at that.
Well, let's see. For starters, it should be, oh, 60 feet long, with a nice storm door window on each end for railfan viewing. Four sets of pneumatic doors on each side, with step plates and trigger box door controls. No headlights. Route and destination signs on the bulkheads along with nice, legible signs on the sides. Spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Throbbing air compressors. Air conditioning. SMEE braking. H2C couplers. A nifty teal and white paint scheme. Capable of doing at least 50 mph along CPW. And least but not last, permanently assigned to the A line.
The end result? A cross between an R-1 and an R-10, with a few modern amenities added.
Even though it has A/C it still must have the fans, ceiling fans that is, not the little desk fans like on the R10,R12!!
OK, I'll buy that. Five big old ceiling fans in the clerestory (I forgot about that) which would emit a "wadawadawadawada" sound as they rotated. Oh, and enough heating capability to make passengers feel warm and toasty during the winter, and which didn't come on all by itself. (Just for you, Wayne.)
The perfect car should have a small private compartment for the subway's version of the airline's Mile High Club!!!!! By the way, is anyone here a member?? (The subway version that is!!!!)
I'm posting this message to both SubTalk and BusTalk because the Newark subway is somewhat a cross between a bus and subway.
I rode the Subway today for the first time since pantographs came into use. I have a few questions about Fares, Branch Brook Park Station and the new LRVs.
1. What's the difference between a ticket with transfer and ticket with continuing trip? The NJT site says the machine was supposed to say something about that, but I didn't read the machine.
2. How are transfers administered now with the POP system?
3. Are the monthly passes rolling date (like Metrocard) or calendar month (like the railroads)?
4. How do you stamp a 10 trip ticket? Or is it just 10 different tickets?
Will Branch Brook Park station be used by the PCCs? Will the LRVs ever use Heller Parkway or Franklin Avenue station? Basically, in what order will the station be opened, the other stations closed, the extension opened, and the cars replaced? Will the PCC ever coöperate with the LRVs?
Will the subway go to CBTC?
And finally, will the new LRVs floor be exactly at platform level obviating the need for ramps, or will ramps be installed like on LF busses?
I would have to say the stupidest fare system is the one that still exsists today on the Metra Electric Line.
They use the traditional ticket/conductor system and also turnstiles.
I rode to Pullman last week-end and used the 115th St. Station on my way there. I tried to exit through a turnstile and got a hard kick in the stomach.
I then remembered that you need your ticket to enter and exit the system. However I had rode with a week-end pass which doesn't have the magnetic turnstile strip on it. I was about to jump the turnstile for the 1st time (ever in my life!) when I saw the handicapped gate and exited through it.
Then on my way back I used the Pullman/111th St. Station which is falling down with no entrance signs, ticket machines or turnstiles. I don't think they even had lights for night and no roof!
Upon arrival at Randolph St. I then had to show my week-end pass to the agent.
My opinion is that turnstiles don't work on a Commuter Rail-Road or any system unless an agent is on duty at all times. Especially if you have to exit through a locked turnstile. There are only station agents at 3 of the 50 Electric Line Stations, so get ride of the turnstiles! The rest of the system works fine w/o them. If you are going to pay the conductors anyway, why not!
What do you think??
BJ
PS: I then rode the CTA Red Line up to the North Side to eat at Leonas and realized how easily their fare system really works!
I agree 100%! I've always thought that the turnstiles are a gross waste of money if there are still trainmen, whose only job is to check tickets. The ticket vending machines are probably a great money-saver and I find them very convenient, but there's no reason why machine-dispensed cards have to be read by a machine. Indeed, because the trainmen have to check the tickets, the Metra Electric tickets ARE human-readable. But the converse isn't true -- a ticket sold for the rest of the Metra system is valid on the Electric line, but because the turnstile can't read it, you have to be let through by a station attendant if there is one.
Basically, with the Electric line, we have the worst of rapid-transit fare practice (turnstiles and the congestion they cause) combined with the worst of commuter-train fare practice (paying for multiple trainmen on each train so that everyone's ticket is checked). To be fair to Metra, they didn't institute this Frankenstein system but were saddled with it from IC days, IIRC.
By the way, there are supposed to be "PAL" phones (something-or-other Active Link, IIRC) at the unmanned Electric stations, where someone with a South Shore or non-Electric Metra ticket can talk to a remote operator who can buzz them in.
I've always thought that Metra should install ticket machines on the other lines but leave the turnstiles out. There are a lot of stations where you can't buy a ticket (although you can buy on the train, of course) because the traffic doesn't justify a live ticket agent. But Metra seems to have this idea that the ticket vending machines and the turnstiles are intrinsically linked.
The first generation magstripe junk came to the IC in 1965 when I still lived there. So how many years is it since Metra(RTA/) has owned/been the purveyor of the service? Point is they need to rethink the fare control(AND fare structure) First off the current junk should be replaced with CTA compatible equipment. Second as a matter of policy the CTA fare should apply to all service within city limits regardless of route. And yes the ex IC should be a two body crew situation . A conductor solely concerned with train safety/ doors etc. and no ticket taking. That was after all the original idea when IC bought the stuff.
Also, in 1965, the IC was more like a rapid transit than a suburban commuter rail operation. A large fraction of their passengers were actually totally within the city of Chicago (stations through 115-Kensington and the whole South Chicago Branch), and the service to these stations was several times an hour even in non-rush hours (I recall mid-day weekday schedules showing a train every 20 minutes in the late 60s). With that type of operation, station-based fare controls (i.e.-turnstiles) made a lot of sense. A lot has changed in the past 30 or 35 years.
-- Ed Sachs
Your supposed to use the blue phone to get in contact with
one of the Metra employees for that sort of thing.
Turnstiles don't work if anyone can just walk on the right of
way to hop onto the platform either. Metra is a bitch about
ticket agents too, if you board a train and attempt to buy your
ticket on the train and if there was a ticket agent on duty it's
an extra $1 charge. But if the station you boarded didn't have
an agent at the time, then they cannot charge you the extra $1 on
the train. They'll try anything to get money out of you.
"Metra is a bitch about
ticket agents too, if you board a train and attempt to buy your
ticket on the train and if there was a ticket agent on duty it's
an extra $1 charge. But if the station you boarded didn't have
an agent at the time, then they cannot charge you the extra $1 on
the train. They'll try anything to get money out of you."
BIG DEAL. What agency DOES NOT do this? If you don't have your ticket on LIRR or MNR it's $2, on NJT Rail it's $3 and on the NJT Newark Subway it's $100.
One thing I do not get is how systems that use turnstiles but no ticket agent there prevent fare evasion. The example of this closest to me is PATCO. I once jumped the turnstile out of the station upon receiving a bad ticket. I did use the phone once and it did work. Another time, a policeman saved me the trouble and let me out. I do not know how they do it.
PATCO employs Big Brother to prevent fare evasion. Big Brother watches the turnstyles through several cameras and then whenever possible a transit cop is routed to intercept the fate evader. Also with PATCO you have to jump twice thus doubling your chanches of detection and I also know that during the weekday rush where are transit cops stationed at most PATCO stations. At the Haddonfield station the handicapped gate was left unlocked and once upon returning from I trip with many heavy bags I opened the gate, placed my bags on the other side, then went back and used the turnstyle.
Can someone tell me where the best places are for street musicians? Does anyone have any favorites?
TIA
I don't think he qualifies as a "street musician", but my favorite subway performer has always been the guy who Latin dances with the blow up doll. I haven't seen him in a while, but when I did go that way he was often at Times Square, right near the Shuttle.
Chuck
The IRT mezzanine at Union Square has had some awfully good jazz bands recently, despite being one above of the squealiest platforms in the system, and despite the "moving platform" announcement. The TA schedules them, believe it or not--maybe they have information available. A couple of talented guys used to work Astor Place (w/o official sanction), but they haven't been around in a while. There's also a guy who likes to play his saxophone on the D train crossing the Manhattan Bridge at sunset.
Moving platform announcement?
ian
"Moving platform announcement?"
Please stand clear of the moving platforms as trains enter and leave the station.
Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but a recent thread
described the following consist:
/-R40-|-R40-\_(Yellow Car)_/-R40-|-R40-\
I've seen this train pass a few times
behind my house (from my kitchen window):
The yellow car appeared to be a Division-A
work car - it wouldn't be the R.A.T. (rail adhesion
train), would it ?
(Applies a jel to the running rails for better traction.)
I've also spied the following:
[-R32-][-R32-][-R27/30-][-R32-][-R32-]
(not able to discern the # of the center car)
which IS the R.A.T.
(... maybe someone could set a few traps ...)
Question: the TV-movie "Aftershock" (Nov. 14, CBS):
were the cars used in the subway scene the new R-142's ?
<were the cars used in the subway scene the new R-142's ? >>
Nope, that was the Toronto subway. If the people up there were smart, the next order they make for new cars would be designed to look like a R-142 or R-143, since so many TV shows and movies use Toronto as a NYC replacementto save money.
Actually, Toronto just scrapped some of their H-1 (H-2?) cars, didn't they ....
--Mark
I know of only two cars have been converted to use as Rail Adhesion Cars. One car runs on the IRT and the other runs on the BMT/IND. R33 8885 became a work horse by circumstance since her companion was cut up for scrap at President St due to an accident a few years back. The car's currently stored at E180th St Yard in the Bronx, for use on the Dyre Av line since that ROW is located along a string of trees. Falling leaves (especially wet ones) will cause havoc with a train's wheels. R30 8429 is what you saw between R32s. The Brighton and Sea Beach lines will need the car most of the time since the two are located under the trees. The leaves will create a lot of slippage for the wheels of R68s or anything else that roams the area. The purpose of the gel car is to maintain the friction a subway car's wheels have running on a particular stretch of rail.
-Stef
Might be R-15 RD-335 (ex.5965), an ageless Yellowbird of 1950 vintage. Or could be any of the other rider cars/work motors. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for this strange train of Slants.
Wayne
A few weeks ago I mentioned a show about great American train wrecks on the history Channel and a few posters asked about it. Well I just discovered its on right now from 0200-0300. (At least in NY) And no, it doesn't have Malbone or the LIRR Thanksgiving wreck.
By the way, does anyone know why my cookies disappeared. When I came to the sight my name & Email were missing
Did you have a visit from Cookie Monster? :-)
Seriously, I have the problem from time to time, usually caused by visiting some other site that writes to the cookies file improperly. When my older son is visiting it happens all the time (a naval history board he visits is guaranteed to mess it up).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's happened to me a few times. I guess our cookies go stale after a period of time. lol
That's happened to me a few times. I guess our cookies go stale after a period of time. lol
Stale cookies? Put em in a Ziplock bag.
Can someone explain to me how do LIRR engineers and conductors pick jobs? Is it similiar to NYCT as far as extra lists, floaters, yard tricks and WAA's?
Do Engineers get qualified first on electric equipment and then diesel?
I can't answer your question with the depth you are looking for, but I know something of how the system works.
Everything appears to be broken down into numbered and detailed "crews." A crew, usually consisting of an engineer, a conductor and a brakeman, travel the entire assignment together. On diesels, the engineer reports earlier and is released later than the rest of the crew.
Even jobs like the engineer who sits in a relief engine near Harold all day in case there is a breakdown is a regular pick.
There is also a "guaranteed extra list" which you also pick onto.
For brakeman, there is also a job called Collector which travels back and forth multiple times a day, hopping on and off trains to help the regular crews collect tickets on especially busy trains. This is also a regular pick and tends to be low priority.
Picks are strictly by seniority and. for conductors/brakeman, it seems to take about 15 years on the job to get something vaguely like what you want.
Notice to Employees (Includes Part Time Workers)
SICKNESS
We will no longer accept your doctors statements as proof. We believe if you
are able to go to the doctor, you are able to work.
LEAVE OF ABSENCE FOR SURGERY
We are no longer allowing this practice. As long as you are employed here, you will need all of whatever you have and should not consider having anything removed. We hired you as you are, and to have anything removed would certainly make you less than we bargained for. Anyone having operations will be FIRED immediately.
PREGNANCY
In the event of extreme pregnancy, you will be allowed to go to the first aid room when the pains are FIVE MINTUES apart. IF it is false labor, you will have to take an hour's leave without pay.
DEATH
This will be accepted as an excuse, BUT we would like two weeks notice, as we feel it is your duty to teach someone your job.
From,
THE MANAGEMENT
Wow, the TA is getting to be more and more like the Police Dept!!!!
This morning on my ride in on the Q (R40Slant 4256) as we start the downgrade into Newkirk Ave (this starts at Ave H) the T/O is apply brake, coasting, applying brake. Further past Ave H the conductor gets on the PA and says "Just a reminder folks that D and Q trains operate a reduced speed into Newkirk Ave because of leaves on the tracks".
No sooner then he finishes this statement, R68 D lead by 2720 slams past us at track speed and beats us into Newkirk Ave. (BTW, it left Kings Hwy well before the Q arrived).
I couldn't help laugh, guess the 68 ain't a hippo after all.
I have to ride the railfan window, I know there are station timers into Newkirk but we never hit them. I think they posted yellow painted boards on both tracks to force the trains to slow down but I'm not sure.
It would have been even funnier if that D train had encountered leaves on the tracks. I wonder if the D conductor made the same announcement on his train.
Correct me if my memory is wrong. Up until a couple of years ago, coming into Newkirk from Ave. H especially on the local, there were very restrictive timers that the train almost had to come to a stop with. I don't remember it as severe on the express track, although I may be wrong. This had been a long standing condition, similar to the restrictive timers between 7th Ave & Atlantic, which I think were also greatly liberalized in the last couple of years.
As long as I am talking about speed, there was a section on the D/Q uptown either between Grand & Broadway Lafayette or Broadway Lafayette & W.4, where there were a couple of curved stretches of tracks, which if you were riding toward the rear of the train, would feel like the cars were going to leave the track. It used to scare the hell out of me. I haven't noticed it as much lately, whether due to slower trains or a generalized lessened state of my anxiety level (since becoming a worshipper of the devil---- just a touch of humor ). Did anyone else ever feel that way ( about the track, not the devil) ?
How about this for a humorous twist on that section of track? There was a woman in my car giving some testimony about her faith in the Lord and warning the passengers time was running out. As the train entered this curved section moving at a very high speed, she became excited and said " You've had your chance--- It's too late now ----Prepare to meet your creator --- We're going to die going around this curve!!!
Seriously, there were times I would look at fellow customers to see if anyone else seemed concerned.
There are timers on both tracks manhattan bound, I forget if they are ST or GT but I think they are no less then 20mph. I need to ride the head end soon.
Today I took the D, my feet were killing me, wanted a seat for the ride. We DID slow to a crawl after leaving Ave H into Newkirk. And while we were stoped at Ave H. the Q crawled past us going slow as well (We opened up at Newkirk just as the Q left, more pax bitching about that).
I had a no-luck time getting in. I notice a 12:13PM post on Thursday followed by a 3:06 Fri. Morning post. What happened?? 15 hours w/o SubTalk almost killed me. (Just kidding) Well....WELCOME BACK SUBTALK
Here's the hypothetical situation:
A female tower operator charges her supervisor with sexual harassment for unwanted touching. During the investigation, it comes out that the Dispatcher did not touch the female with any sexual intent. He tried to restrain her from leaving her post 1 hour early, against his wishes.
The rest of the story
The Supervisor had frequently permitted the female tower operator to leave early - no strings, sexual or otherwise. On this day, the disp. needed her to stay for her entire tour and she refused, hence the touching.
Discussion Questions
What action should be taken against the supervisor?
What action should be taken against the tower operator?
Was she paid for the routine hour off, or was it unpaid or annual leave? If she was paid, fire them both, assuming the rules permit (if they don't permit, bad rules).
If she wasn't paid, and was given permission to leave early unpaid (child care or something) and they were otherwise good employees, try to get them to work it out, or otherwise transfer them away from one another with a warning that more hassles like this could result in dismissal.
As Larry Littlefield suggested, why the supervisor was letting her go early is an important consideration. I would view it also in relation to how much discretion dispatchers have in letting people leave early. Even if there were no strings attached, was this a case of favoritism in the workplace.
As to the tower operator, you would have to show me why she shouldn't be fired. "Bearing false witness" is serious enough that it'e one of the Ten Commandments. And her motive was especially venal. She was willing to get her supervisor in serious trouble with a false and potent charge.
Think of it as similar to your neighbor falsely telling the police you committed a crime because you complained about his barking dog.
You know, the inspector General commonly instigates suspensions on supervision in case of personel not being available when they are being paid. Supervisor hypothetically got a demotion. The rule book prohibits striking or making menacing gestures. The Supervisor in this case would have been better off calling the crew office and writing the TW/O up as AWOL. Charges against the TW/O would have to be dropped due to lack of Prima Facie. TWU would have a field day at Arbitration defaming the Supervisor, escpecially if the 30 Working Day window has elapsed.
Theft of City Services for us non transit types for being AWOL.
Rule 5 "Reporting for Duty"
(a)"Wilful neglect of duty, serious breach of disipline"
Rule 10 "Conduct of Employees" for the TA
(c)"..treat all passengers and fellow employees with courtesy, avoid argument and exercise patience, forebarance and self control under all conditions."
(d)"Employees must not make threatering gestures towards, or commit assult or battery agianst... even under the greatest provocation."
You forgot rules 6b and 6c about falsifying time records.
I will tell you that in our hypothetical case, the sexual harassment charge was unfounded. No further action was deemed necessary. However, the supervisor was charged with falsifying time records, padding the payroll & theft.
What will happen to him?
What should happen to the tower operator?
If the time records were falsified, they should both be fired. Let them sort out their conflict with each other in court -- not our problem. From the point of view of the taxpayer/train rider/other workers, they colluded to rip us off, and are a detriment to the system. That's the way a private company would handle it, I'll tell you that.
In a case like this, it is not to go on YOUR opinion as to what should be done but by the rules and contract and/or intervention of the Inspector General as to what will be done to remedy a situation like this. The contract specifiaclly states that in cases of fraud or crime which requires intervention of an outside oversight, the 30 day working day window to process and issue a DAN does not apply. However in this hypothetical case, there are more severe implications involved. For instance what if the ATD and relief T/D have knowledge? What if there are train crew personel involved? How many persons would YOU be willing to fire? Would you put up with 20 minute intervals while half of the TA personel are out of service visiting the IG's office? The TA doesn't want to know. They have been able to break their own bulletins and rules to keep service moving. They have fraudulently misled investigators outside of System Safety after accidents involving injuries and fatalites. In fact in the case of the Power Distribution persons caught in the act of leaving early in the Chief article four months back, only the foreman and sperintendant were given real discipline. The ringmasters if you will. That is why the TA threatened the union leaders in the Post early this week on promises of dismissing striking workers. I'd like to see the TA go after the shop stewards literature and tear down my bulletin board. Just more ammunition I can haul into court. And if you go to any of the terminals, you will see that train operators and conductors are very angry at the TA. And you know there isn't more then one or two reps on a given line at any time. So who is really leading them? Fire me fire us all. Live in fear. December 15 is near.
[However in this hypothetical case, there are more severe implications involved. For instance what if the ATD and relief T/D have knowledge? What if there are train crew personel involved? How many persons would YOU be willing to fire?]
Knowledge is not complicity. Everybody knows about things that go on, but it's not a fellow employee's business to rat. Unless someone was in a supervisory position and failed to act, or benefitted from the deal, I don't see any reason they should be held responsible.
It seems like a pretty open and shut case--fire the supervisor. If the employee was stealing time with or without the supervisor's complicity, fire her too. To the extent that these basic things aren't done, they're another strong argument against the union system, and make the MTA's actions more understandable.
We don't know if it has happened before or not. If it is the first offense for either termination is not likely. Suspension is possible written warning a must. Who know what an arbitrator would say. I expect a suspention would stick in the case of the supervisor a reassgnment may be appopriate. We dont know who instigated it but the supervisor likely started out being benevelant to help out an employee in need and the employee saw on opportunity and pushed expecting a situation to be repeated.
Thats why managers get hard If they try to be nice and help someone it comes back and bites them. Good luck to all of them.
Larry, Paul, and Harry: stick to your day jobs and don't try to practice law. Unfortunately, at times the law and common sense diverge in opposite directions.
At the very least, Harry is a union rep. When stupid stuff like this happens, his day job is to be my lawyer.
This being SubTalk, not LawTalk, my impression was that we were being asked for a reasoned personal opinion.
You are right, this is subtalk. And we've discussed racial issues, mayoral term limits, sports and astrology. If you don't like the subject, don't respond and it will go away.
The dispatcher should have had her pay cut for the time she left early and written up leaving her post and given a 5 day suspension.
The supervisor should get a 30 day suspension for physically touching the dispatcher and dereliction of duty for his past behavior.
Thanks for making my agrument a little easier. If the TWO has an emergency and went home, it does'nt matter why or how she was paid, it matters that she gets her pay. If she chose an emergency AVA she could not get paid in accordance with the contract as only sick pay can be issued in quarter day increments. That leaves a problem here. One that should be solved by the crew office, not the local supervision. Even if a run is completed 15 minutes early and an employee must go home, time can be cut for the remaining minutes. My point is the TWO made the intention known that he/she was going home. Thats all that matters. If TA wants to harrass him/her afterwards, they probably will but NO ONE can say I must remain for eight hours! There is nothing to charge the TWO with. The TWO was not AWOL. If it came out at arbitration that the employee frequently left early, that might be another matter but would do the dispatcher more harm than the TWO. If the TWO wasn't written up before, then everything is allright by the TA until this point. Unless the dispatcher gives up day, dates and times, the TWO is safe for now. Unless they assign a TSS to look over the Tower. No more newspapers, dark lights and the long sticks used to manipulate the route buttons :-)
Clarification of our hypothetical case:
The TWO stated that she simply wanted to leave early - not for an emergency. She stated that this was a regular practice that she had engaged in with the cooperation of her supervisor. She did not want to use AVA or Vac or OTO time. She wanted to be paid for 8 hours work as she had been previously.
Not much any honest rep can do for that. Nuff said.
Fire them both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Here's the hypothetical situation:
A female tower operator charges her supervisor with sexual harassment for unwanted touching. During the investigation, it comes out that the Dispatcher did not touch the female with any sexual intent. He tried to restrain her from leaving her post 1 hour early, against his wishes.
The rest of the story
The Supervisor had frequently permitted the female tower operator to leave early - no strings, sexual or otherwise. On this day, the disp. needed her to stay for her entire tour and she refused, hence the touching.
Discussion Questions
What action should be taken against the supervisor?
What action should be taken against the tower operator?]
Supervisor--dismissal. He has no right to physically harass an employee who hasn't committed a crime or created a hazardous situation, whether his intentions are sexual or not.
Tower Operator--If this is her first offense, and assuming her actions didn't endanger anybody, a formal warning, probation, and a permanent entry into her record with dismissal at the time of the next serious offense. (She should really be fired too for gross insubordination and willful failure to abide by her contract, but legal practicality seems to mandate a warning for all but the most severe infractions).
Am I missing something?
In this hypothetical she charged her supervisor with sexual harassment. Does anyone else care that she has committed perjury?
Is this more fallout from the escapades of our President?
Perhaps I should care but it would as bad as the RTO union VP who pressed charges resulting in the dismissal of a railroad clerk a few years back so I abstain. Like I said the TA won't care if it only involves the parties involved. On the hypothetical line involved, one of the superintendants, of whom I may have had run ins with and disagree with the facts involved with his hiring, is an OK manager to me. If I had to drag down good people, I would think twice before submitting a G2 on a matter such as this. The trouble is that at Step Hearings of this matter, there are no court reporters present with cameras and tape recorders. There is no true justice at Arbitration or Trial Boards. Period. If she is charged with lying, she would go to step one. At that time the TA might feel obligated to change the charges when they receive the Supervisor's statements. Unlike an arrest where you are Charged with a crime, then visit a judge or jury to be tried. In the TA, you are Guilty until PROVEN innocent.
The Dispatcher was charged with various charges including padding the payroll, theft and assault. The recomended penalty was dismissal. He had two options.
One would be to go to trial board where he'd face the possibility of five (5) outcomes.
1) Dismissal of the charges - least likely since he admitted to most of the bill of charges.
2) Reprimand - Not very likely
3) Suspension - Somewhat likely
4) Demotion - Reasonably possible
5) Dismissal - extremely possible
The second option would be to cop a plea and make a deal.
The dispatcher in our hypothetical case opted for the latter and was demoted to a train operator sans his seniority.
Harry - All that is left is to determine what charges, if any, should be brought against the TWO. This is where I'd really like to hear from you and Eric.
[The dispatcher in our hypothetical case opted for the latter and was demoted to a train operator sans his seniority.]
Wait a moment--this guy *physically restrained* a fellow employee, and your telling me he wasn't dismissed?
Even in the union situations I've been in, physical assault resulted in instant, no questions asked dismissal.
For something to be assault in NYS there MUST be an injury. Thats not negotiable, THATS THE LAW. Just restraining her (if the sexual contact was proved false which the hypothetical situation stated) can possibly be harassment or most probably no crime. If he is guilty of anything its allowing her to leave early, which she is guilty of too. In the Police Dept that would be failure to supervise.
[For something to be assault in NYS there MUST be an injury. Thats not negotiable, THATS THE LAW. Just restraining her (if the sexual contact was proved false which the hypothetical situation stated) can possibly be harassment or most probably no crime. If he is guilty of anything its allowing her to leave early, which she is guilty of too. In the Police Dept that would be failure to supervise.]
It may not be legal assault, but how about false arrest and slavery? You can't physically restrain an employee from leaving the premises--that's bizarre and outlandish, and it's against the law.
I find it shocking that the system doesn't permit, not to mention mandate, dismissal for that sort of offense. Makes me wonder how they handle normal stuff--people routinely showing up late, mouthing off to customers, that sort of thing.
In our Hypothetical case, the restraining of the hourly employee merely involved grabbing her arm. We are not talking criminal assault (At least I don't think so) but we are talking about violation of TA rules and policies on both sides. It should be brought up that local management was also accused of condoning the payroll padding, putting them on the defensive.
We know what happened to the Supervisor in the case. I'm still waiting to hear from our resident TWU Reps., Eric & Harry, to find out their take as to what should be done with the Tower Operator.
Part IV in our little Labor Relations exercise will be tomorrow.
I don't condone her past practices as it make the good honest workers look bad but as HER REP, No DAN, No Plan. She can't get days in the street without the charges filed. No paper suspensions and no dismissal. Best we could do for her is reinstruction for a "possibly alleged" violation. Which amounts to nothing. If the supervisor makes a deal for his old job back and names dates and times, then we would have a problem. The thirty working day window is shattered in cases involving fraud and crime of a nature that warrants outside intervention, such as a D.A, I.G., P.D. or other investigators. Thats all we have to work with. No body, no crime.
To begin with I'll apologize for my absence. Little injury
while coming down from the Willy B. I'm ok and will
probably be back to work as soon as the TA quack says so.
The Tw/O in question, what does it read exactly on her
DAN? What did Lela Lord write in? I know whatever it was,
Satan's minion on earth, Lenny Akselrod approved it first.
Did it read violations of rules: 8(a) Employees who
knowingly submit, or make, reports containing false
statements shall be charged with misconduct and
incompetence.
Rule 10(a) Employees are required to avoid behavior which
would tend to create adverse criticism of the Authority or
of the system. ( I like that one! We should charge Joe
Hoffman after the brake mod debacle!)
Rule 11(e) reads in part: they must not neglect or shirk
any duty.
Rule 5(a) Absence from duty without proper authority is
regarded by the Authority as willful neglect of duty and a
serious breach of discipline.
And the usual tack on's: rules 2(a) 2(b) 2(d) and 4(a)
If it read as thus, then I'd also have to see the recomended penalty and I would want to see the Tw/O's DAN history. If she's got a full page of prior DAN's then I'd tell her she'd better start looking for another job.
The penalty Labor Relations wants, if it's re-instruction, or a written reprimand with no time, then I tell her accept and count her blessings. They go for 2 or 5 days(not lately, read my posts on that one?) I tell her take it and don't cry. 20 days? Well then we have to go to the arbitrator. That's a dice throw, but what choice does she have?
On the flip side of the coin. The Authority is justified in a case like this, and as a union rep, these are the kinds of cases we loathe. I hate to say it. She shouldn't be fired. But there's call for time served.
That's my two cents worth.
In the "hypothetical" case, I have heard nothing of a prior DAN backing the dispatcher's claim he let her go early frequently. 10A and 11E would stick. Depending on her version of the G2, I would advise her that if she felt harrassed by him putting his hands on her, than it was an accurate written report and she filed the appropriate charges. He should have never restrained her, he should have written her up and cut the time. He would still have his job. 5A is a funny predicament here because if there is an emergency case where an employee must go home, the crew office must be notified. However there is no written policy as to who should make the call so I would argue that the supervisor is the one who has time cut. What employee would volunteer to get their own time cut? As I said before, because the supervisor took illegal actions on his own behalf, he paid the ultimate price and unless he can admit to all that he let the TW/O go at this time and that time therefore opening the can of worms upon the TW/O, she can not get days for something she wasn't CHARGED with.
SO now the dispatcher has been demoted and he has his handles back. All that is left in our hypothetical case, is to decide what should be done to the hourly employee.
Rule 6c prohibits an employee from allowing another (even a supervisor) to make false entries on their time records.
Rule 5a states that all absences from duty must be approved in advance unless in the case of an emergency.
Rule 8a states that making false or incomplete reports constitutes gross misconduct and is grounds for dismissal.
In our hypothetical case, Labor Relations decided not to take any action for the false report of sexual harassment.
Again in this hypothetical case, Labor relations failed to take any action regarding the numerous illegal absences admitted to by the employee. They also took no steps to recover any overpayments to the employee. In fact, they took no action what-so-ever against this employee for payroll padding.
To paraphrase what they used to say on 'Dragnet' The story you have just seen is true. The names have been omitted to protect the innocent." And that is the real joke here.
It is a joke.
You have two less than honest and now disgruntled employees. Bet you they both resent the organization. People can rationalize just about anything.
These suspensions, demotions, etc. just leave you with resentful employees. That's why, nasty as it is, the private sector would rather fire someone who is worth a few less dollars than they're getting, and hire someone in, than cut someone's pay. Better to cut people loose.
[These suspensions, demotions, etc. just leave you with resentful employees. That's why, nasty as it is, the private sector would rather fire someone who is worth a few less dollars than they're getting, and hire someone in, than cut someone's pay. Better to cut people loose.]
And when people in private enterprise are demoted, as they occasionally are, they almost always leave on their own. (In the few sad exceptions I've seen, the individual was grossly unqualified for the original position, knew it, and decided to stay. Frequently in such cases management plays along by leaving them with their old title but stripping them of authority, or creating an entirely new position.)
[Am I missing something?
In this hypothetical she charged her supervisor with sexual harassment. Does anyone else care that she has committed perjury?
Is this more fallout from the escapades of our President?]
No, I'm the one who missed something. If it can be proved that she lied about her supervisor, not only should she be fired, but she should be sued for sexual harassment and everything she's worth.
My cousin-in-law went through something like this--he fired an employee, who falsely charged him with making sexual advances. He went through a year of hell--at one point, his lawyers were telling him he would probaby go to jail. Fortunately, the woman who had made the charges had gotten her friends to implicate him, the investigators found a mass of fabricated, contradictory testimony, and the suit and criminal investigation were dropped. But I have no sympathy for someone who would put someone else through that.
Frankly, they both sound pretty vile to me. So I'll change my vote--fire them both, let them sue one another, be done with them.
My vote too. They've already taken too much management time. The question for an organization is what is best going forward. Cut 'em loose, and ask some hard questions of the next level up.
The woman leaving her job early without permission obviously needs to be disciplined, and perhaps fired. But the supervisor who tried to physically restrain her should be too. Surely that is not the way to secure employee performance - with physical force. He should have warned her of the consequences of leaving early, but not tried to physically stop her from doing so.
The question of whether they had colluded in the past on falsifying time sheets is a separate one, the above discussion relates to the final incident.
The media is reporting that the TWU is backing off the strike threat. Seems like Willie has figured out that he cares more about the riders than Pataki does, and is floundering around. So what alternatives does the TWU have? I've thought about it, and come up with an alternative that's perfectly legal would bother subway riders in any way, but would bother other people a lot.
As I said, the TWU is a de facto monopoly for travel to Manhattan, because if everyone tried to drive there no one could. How about having Willie say that TA workers are being dissed relative to commuter railroad employees, and TA riders are being dissed in the capital plan, so we might as well exercise our right to drive?
Not in a convoy, not blocking the box, not violating traffic laws (if it can be helped), but just having 10,000 off duty TA workers fill up their tanks and drive into and around Midtown for a few hours on a weekday -- say from 3 p.m. to 10 p.m. If other unions join in, it could be devastating -- Midtown would lock down, and all the suits would be stuck in traffic. Imagine 20,000 teachers finishing school and driving in. I might even join in.
Beats walking over.
Would this not violating traffic laws (if it can be helped) be similiar to not violating the Taylor Law (if it can be helped)? You can't spend weeks telling me I can't break a law and then say something like that. Breaking the Taylor law will at the most result in inconveniencing people. Breaking traffic laws can, depending on which one has been ignored, have results as serious as death.
As for driving, a lot of us do drive already. How do you think I get to 241 St at 5:00am from SI without being exhausted already. Mass transit, I need to leave at 2:30 and hope I make all my connections. Driving, I can leave at 3:45 and still have plenty of time. I just exercise my right to common sense and avoid midtown, especially at this time of year, when it is ALREADY at a standstill.
Workers being dissed as to commuter roads? Come on, Larry, these are the people who physically attack us in RTO on a regular basis. Do you really think we could ever convince them to be nice to us?
Riders being dissed in the capital plan? Most of them have known it for years, but its only in the last few months I've seen people actually start to complain about it (2nd Ave Subway). They want all the improvements, but don't want to pay for them - be it higher taxes are rearranging spending priorities. As a result nothing happens. They go on being annoyed, we go on working in hell and every few years the swords get rattled and someone says the magic words - TRANSIT STRIKE. And suddenly, we are the REALLY bad guys. I've had to stop wearing my uniform coat while commuting, just to stop getting attacked by these nuts. Why should I care what happens to them?
I didn't day break the traffic laws. I just said drive to Manhattan and drive around. If enough people do it at about the same time, it will result in a traffic jam, which will inconvenience people with power -- even of no laws are broken.
Not that there is any chance of such a mass protest taking place, but it will also 'inconvenience' police cars, fire trucks and ambulances also. Which means it might be something that a true genius like Willie James would encourage.
(Increase in driving to Manhattan would also hurt emergency vehicles).
That's one of the reasons that a favor reducing Manhattan traffic at the front door -- by tolling all the entrances, and pricing the tolls at a level where the traffic becomes bearable and buses, trucks making deliveries, and emergency vehicles can move.
The current policy its to allow everyone to drive to Manhattan for free, but discourage the practice by not allowing the provision of any more parking. Not a good idea.
[That's one of the reasons that a favor reducing Manhattan traffic at the front door -- by tolling all the entrances, and pricing the tolls at a level where the traffic becomes bearable and buses, trucks making deliveries, and emergency vehicles can move.
The current policy its to allow everyone to drive to Manhattan for free, but discourage the practice by not allowing the provision of any more parking. Not a good idea.]
Wasn't that part of the settlement with the EPA way back when? I agree it's pretty foolish; we should charge tolls and use the money to build better transit. If we allocated the actual aggregate costs, including maintenance of road and track, of providing a ROW in Manhattan to transit and car users according to actual wear and tear and peak usage and added in the cost of mandated provisions for the handicapped, I have a feeling we'd end up with some *very* high vehicle fees. That would discourage traffic as you suggest while at the same time allowing us to turn our transit system into a regional asset. And how long would outlying regions refuse to build an adequate infrastructure for their through traffic--I recall reading that 25% of the traffic in NYC is just passing through--things like the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge (OK, Moses is gone, make it a tunnel) or a highway along the Palisades?
And while we're at it, why can't we have low pollution buses and taxis, with the cost of the technology being paid by the drivers who choose to cause local pollution?
"....things like the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge (OK, Moses is gone, make it a tunnel) or a highway along the Palisades?"
Tunnels have notoriously low capacity, and even with the land acquisition on both sides of the sound would be more expensive.
Heaven forbid they put in a Sound crossing!!!! Could you imagine how bad the LIE would be if all the traffic went from Rye to Oyster Bay and took the LIE instead of the Cross Bronx????
Not worse than the Cross Bronx is now.
Now what traffic would take the LIE with the bridge that otherwise wouldn't take the LIE? The bridge only makes sense for Long Island destinations.
Heaven forbid they put in a Sound crossing!!!! Could you imagine how bad the LIE would be if all the traffic from Connecticut to Joisey went from Rye to Oyster Bay and took the LIE instead of the Cross Bronx????
The lack of a Rye-Oyster Bay bridge leaves an unsolved problem. Those traveling from Long Island to eastern New England have to go all the way west, through the most densely populated city in the U.S., then go east again. How would you solve it?
Any time I go to New England, I take the ferry from Orient to New London.
The saving of wear and tear on me and my family justifies the cost.
You'd be surprised how much truck traffic uses this ferry.
I would run a new ferry service from the LILCO property at Shoreham to Connecticut. The beauty of a ferry is that it would attract Long Island-New England traffic away from the congested city crossings without encouraging long haul southern and western to New England traffic to come through the City and L.I. the way a new bridge would.
The thing about the current ferries is, they are not at the end of high capacity highways. Could you extend an LIE spur to that Shoreham property, so ferry traffic would not have to use local roads? Is there an interstate on the other end? Could you put in enough queue space for two or more competing operators with separate docks?
IIRC, the current road to Shoreham is four lanes and underutilized. The accomodations in Connecticut depends on the location of the terminal, but few possible landing points are far from Interstate 95.
However, I question how "high capacity" the connections to such ferries should be. I think the idea should be to be convenient enough to lure LI and eastern Queens traffic away from the congested city crossings without making it so attractive that new traffic is developed from, say, NJ and South that would then go through the City.
If the traffic is primarily tourist (weekend) traffic then it would take some of the strain off the Cross Bronx and divert it across Staten Island and the Verrazano. If it develops into weekday traffic (trucks) then all it probably does is take traffic off the rails.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
how about ferry from the south shore to the jesery shore
how about ferry from the south shore to the jesery shore
That would be great, but I don't think there's any location on the South Shore that would both provide a protected harbor and allow boats of any size to dock.
Plus, once you get west of Point Lookout (roughly near the west end of Jones Beach) there is no good highway access.
What about the Nassau Expway? It runs from the Belt to just before the Atlantic Beach Bridge.
The Nassau Expressway runs in only 1 direction from the Belt to Rockaway Blvd, where it stops at New York Avenue. It is then plain old Rockaway Blvd/Tpke until you get past Costco where it starts up again. However, it has traffic lights to the Atlantic Beach Bridge and is not a true expressway.
"New York Avenue"
Guy R. Brewer Boulevard
"If it develops into weekday traffic (trucks) then all it probably does is take traffic off the rails."
Perhaps if it's traffic between Long Island and Connecticut, yes, but if it's going to New Jersey, it would have been on trucks anyway. I don't think there's much traffic between L.I. and New England, or is there?
Well, I was actually thinking of truck traffic originating in New Jersey and points south destined for Boston and points north, and vice-versa. A fair amount of that goes by rail up the West Shore to Albany and then east; opening another highway route to Boston (SI-Brooklyn-LI-Connecticut-etc.) runs the risk of siphoning a good chunk of that traffic, particularly if its origin or destination is in New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No problem. Just put tolls on the LIE. Don't you think it would be a great place to experiment with a high-speed EZPass system?
[Tunnels have notoriously low capacity, and even with the land acquisition on both sides of the sound would be more expensive.]
I thought it was 40% cheaper to build a tunnel than a comparable bridge?
Maybe when building in Manhattan.
True, your idea wouldn't bother subway riders in any way, but the last time I checked, there's also something called, umm, the bus system! And also, at least the last time I checked, mail and merchandise get around by truck -- hard to ship mail sacks or crates of meat by subway. Last, but certainly not least, I understand that there are these vehicles called "ambulances" that bring sick and injured people to the hospital.
Want to rethink this one, pal?
[The media is reporting that the TWU is backing off the strike threat. Seems like Willie has figured out that he cares more about the riders than Pataki does, and is floundering around. So what alternatives does the TWU have? I've thought about it, and come up with an alternative that's perfectly legal would bother subway riders in any way, but would bother other people a lot.
As I said, the TWU is a de facto monopoly for travel to Manhattan, because if everyone tried to drive there no one could. How about having Willie say that TA workers are being dissed relative to commuter railroad employees, and TA riders are being dissed in the capital plan, so we might as well exercise our right to drive?
Not in a convoy, not blocking the box, not violating traffic laws (if it can be helped), but just having 10,000 off duty TA workers fill up their tanks and drive into and around Midtown for a few hours on a weekday -- say from 3 p.m. to 10 p.m. If other unions join in, it could be devastating -- Midtown would lock down, and all the suits would be stuck in traffic. Imagine 20,000 teachers finishing school and driving in. I might even join in.
Beats walking over.]
The only way I can think that that would bother Pataki would be if it affected his vice presidential prospects, and I doubt it would--he could just take credit for acting tough.
On the other hand, the union could organize a campaign to educate people on the MTA's anti-City bias. Set up a dummy organization, Employees for Better Transit, say, and run ads. Unfortunately, to be perfectly fair, the union would have to criticize itself--not a particularly good position to be in.
Another possiblity--pay off er I mean make campaign contributions to upstate legislators the way the PBA did.
Why is a newspaper printed in column format??
So a transit rider can FOLD it and not exceed their space into someone elses lap. This is a lost art if you ask me, folding the paper and being able to read it, advancing smoothly down and across the page.
Too many people are reading thier TIMES and WSJ's spread out and into other riders faces. The TA should add that to their advertising campain of things to do in the subway.
(Just got a ride in with a newspaper reader's elbow in side from the spread out paper)
When I was in the upper grades at P.S. 249 we received the Times every day at half price. It was on our desks when we arrived in the morning.
The first thing we were taught was how to fold the paper to keep it compact and how to turn the pages without opening up the paper.
I think if a 5th grader could do it, adults could manage the skill without having to go to too many workshops.
Paul - at PS 186 in Queens we learned the same thing in Mrs. Lipman's 6th grade class.
In addition to the classic newspaper folding technique being more considerate to fellow riders, it is much easier on the reader to flip over and back and forth in a compacted form, rather than trying to manage that unwieldy giant.
We learned in the 6th grade at PS 171. You have to admit that the "classic fold" worked better on the Times than it did on the Daily Mirror. You could do it on the tabloids, but it never seemed to work as neatly.
Its funny but about 10 years ago the Daily Racing Form changed to a tabloid type and its so much more awkward to handicap now while standing up!!!
I once took the previous day's Long Island Press to read on the way to work the next morning. Fellow passengers knew that the Press was an afternoon paper, and two people, who I didn't know, asked me why I was reading the previous day's paper. This was many years ago, and I imagine that today the riding public would not be so curious.
You know, in those days, if you were the last person off the car at Broad St (the last stop), you could gather up quite a bundle of like-new newspapers. Many people would just leave their paper on the train. I wonder if they still do that.
If you stay on most commuter trains to the end of the line either rush hour, but especially the evening, you can make out like a bandit on all the papers commuters leave behind. If it's a long haul, like to Bay Head, people have time to finish the whole thing.
I bet a lot a train crews working such runs NEVER have to buy a paper throughout their careers.
[If you stay on most commuter trains to the end of the line either rush hour, but especially the evening, you can make out like a bandit on all the papers commuters leave behind. If it's a long haul, like to Bay Head, people have time to finish the whole thing.]
I find on the LIRR that the _Post_ is the most common left-behind paper, followed in approximate order by the _Daily News_, the _Wall Street Journal_ and _USA Today_. Not too many people leave the _Times_ behind, for some reason.
Oh, many LIRR riders leave copies of _Newsday_ behind, but that means little to me as I don't have a puppy to train.
The Times has changed quite a bit since I was in the 6th grade - so have the Trib and Tele for that matter.
They essentially killed the folding art when they went from 8 to 6 columns. The old 8 column format was ideal. One could fold the paper to a 2 column width and read down. Also, there were only 2 sections. So the paper would not fly apart when folding.
The other art was to somebody else's properly folded paper upside down. That was I could always read a 2nd paper, after I'd finished my own.
I HATE broadsheet newspapers. I wish the Times would convert to tabloid. It's so much easier to handle.
I HATE broadsheet newspapers. I wish the Times would convert to tabloid. It's so much easier to handle.
Yeah! Every day but Sunday. I could imagine what the Sunday Times would look like in tabloid. It would be deeper than it would be high! Not only that, but on Sunday, nobody would be making a pest of themselves with it on a crowded subway train.
Now what I wish is that newspapers not be as spineless as they are. How hard is it to have staplers on the press line?
Now what I wish is that newspapers not be as spineless as they are. How hard is it to have staplers on the press line?
They keep newspapers barebones to keep the cost and the price down.
It always tickles me to see how Hollywood perceives our subway system.
If they are not using Toronto's, doctored up to look like NY's ( a lot of doctoring here!), they actually use some discarded NY cars, that are, perhaps, on their studio lots. Sometimes the effects can be quite good; other times very amusing. From the time Lucy got a trophy cup stuck on her head and wandered over the subway system to last month's
NBC-TV "EARTHQUAKE" movie (set in NY, using TTC), and now Arnold Swarzenegger's "END OF DAYS" you just have to be amazed and amused!
Last night I saw "END OF DAYS". You should see our old R27/30's & what Hollywood can do. That alone was worth seeing the movie!
I won't say anyting else, so as not to spoil some fun if you wish to see it.But note the car #'s inside as opposed to outside, just for starts.
Joe C.
Its not just transit where Hollywood uses alot of poetic license. Its history too. My favorite example is the movie "The Battle of The Bulge". Almost everybody knows it was fought in the Ardennes Forest yet from seeing the movie you would think the whole battle was fought on a treeless plain!!!
Jeff: The beginning of that movie had snow and trees, but at the end you would have thought you were in Kansas or someplace on the Plains. What a crock that was.
"NBC-TV "EARTHQUAKE"
Sorry, it was CBS.
Also, I don't know what car numbers you're talking about, but it's a minute detail that few care about. It's not a big deal.
Different network, same garbage!
The car #'s were 2800's (R68's of course) on TTC cars. True, no big deal. Just funny to see what H'wood does. To those few that care, that is.
Which is why that "Lucy" episode is so neat..I can't place my hands on the tape right this second,but I DO believe the car mock-up they use has a number in the 5000's -just about right for a Low-V. If you have ever read a book about that show,you know that they really did their homework about things like that...(Nick-at-Nite is running Lucy Marathons all week-they might be running it again...)
5000 s were the last of the Lo Volts on the IRT
In the Lucy episode, the interior scenes were done on a mockup which appears to be a cross between a Lo-V and BMT standard. The door arrangement bears a strong resemblance to that on the BMT standards right down to the wide post between the center doors. The route and destination sign arrangement is consistent with what was used on the Lo-Vs, and is correct for a Lexington Ave. express. Even the sequence of stations is correct: Bleecker, Spring, Canal. But here's where they goofed: those are all local stops!
Too bad they didn't have any R-10 stock footage. Oh well, the R-1/9 shots on the AA will suffice. What about the R-12 shot being printed backwards? Oops!
Glad you caught that R12 scene!! That was quite a guffaw in iteslf for a very funny episode.
Now, if you ever get to see Superman, the George Reeves shows of the '50's, there's an episode where he has to stop the Valley Express.
Of course, it is a train of R-1-9's. Good footage,too, as the train accelerates from the station, then "pops" as the motorman cuts power. All this from track level, yet!
Joe C
12/08/99
Speaking of R1-9's , there was a movie I haven't seen in years called "Pay or die". It starred Ernest Borgnine and was about Ernest as a police detective investigating and exposing the "Black Hand" (now called Mafia). One memorable scene shows Ernest waiting on a subway platform (hollywood set) with a platform of people in period turn of the century dress , (1904 IRT ?).
Suddenly a mobster who followed him to the platform pushes him in front of an oncoming train , an R1-9 type (in 1904!). What was funny was the next scene showed Ernest on the tracks and jumping out of the way and embracing a steel column. The train speeds like an express but doesn't stop! I guess the mobster didn't want Ernest to live so he can star in McHales Navy !!
Has anybody seen this black & white flick ?
Bill Newkirk
I did see that,too, just forgot the name.
A movie called "13 Women" (I think...I need to check my collection),
shows a scene in a 1930's subway station. A woman gives the evil eye to her boss, who is a psychic. She entices him to jump in front of the on-coming train, which is a train of BMT Standards, barelling into the station. We see the train, motorman & all, quite clearly. And the way they showed the man fall in front was very good, for those days! Watch for that one. A PBS classic.
Joe C.
>> Suddenly a mobster who followed him to the platform pushes him in front of an oncoming train , an R1-9 type (in 1904!). What was funny was the next scene showed Ernest on the tracks and jumping out of the way and embracing a steel column. The train speeds like an express but doesn't stop! >>
Wasn't that scene filmed at the now temporarily-closed Canal Street station, southbound side, at the point where there's a railing along the platform edge opposite an exit stairway ?
Also, the movie "The Mad Doctor" (Basil Rathbone) has a scene where a man is pushed in front of an (apparently) Low-V train. (Doesn't seem to have been released on video.)
These are great posts! Let's keep 'em comin, subway AND bus scenes, particularly NY City.
Joe C
How about that same GMC bus that keeps on circling in "Guys and Doll"? By the way, whenever a movie thread starts, someone always says "Here we go again" or "We're rehashing old stuff" or "check the movie section on this site" but I always enjoy it over and over again. And someone always brings up something new.
If any of you have teenage daughters ask them to let you know when a music video by a group called Savage Garden is being played. It appears to be shot inside an actual subway car but I lack the skills many of you have to pick up identifying details. I did note the route sign had three tiers, and the bottom said "South Berry." There is also one of those pre-1979 maps where each letter or number had its own color. Improbably, the map is at the end of the car! The station scenes are quite phony looking, and do not integrate the car.
Why should anyone be surprised? Hollywood types ride in Limos. Riding on a subway in New York would be beneath them, the rotten elitists. That is why Hollywood screws up time after time on the screen. I've gotten used to it. It will happen again and again until they get someone like a member of this group who can set them straight. But don't hold your breath for that to happen.
to me it looked like the toronto subway system cars included!!
why did it take so long to derail all of the subway cars ??
also wht didnt the power just go out and the train stop ???
and what about te elevated parts of the system like the 5 7 2
the A to rockways etc???
an earthquake in new york maybe would happen in 5 AM LIKE IT DOES IN LA AND MEXICO !!!
Salaam,
True about the time. I don't know where you live, but NYC did have a quake in 1985. It was felt in the North Bronx & lower Westchester. It did happen about 5a.m.too.
Joe C
What magnitude was it on the Richter Scale? I don't ever remember hearing anything about it.
Just enough to rattle the houses in the neighborhood and knock down pictures on the wall. I have the Daily News article around somewhere.
Interestingly enough, the fault in question runs down White Plains road. Maybe there will be a subway on that stretch someday without the TA really trying.
Joe C
I just recently photographed -- up close -- a quartet of R30's that are on a Warner Brothers lot in Glendale, California. One of the cars has "8401" on the exterior, while the numbe decals on the inside of the motorman's cab door appear to be either "8297" or "8397" (the second digit is partically gone).
Also there is 8275, and two cars so heavily graffitied that number identification was impossible.
My vote for the best NYC subway movie is still the 1970's film version of 'The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3'. Good story, solid acting, and generally convincing cinematography in the subway. The only major gaffe is early in the movie, when the rookie conductor tries to impress his instructor by claiming that IRT cars are 72 feet long! A little bit dated in its costumes and the hijacker's ransom demand of only $1 million (what would they ask for today - $100 million?), but still a lot of fun.
Maybe the worst NYC subway movie was the TV version of 'Pelham 1-2-3' made a couple of years ago. Set in New York but filmed in Toronto, and totally unconvincing. What was the point of even making this movie? They should have just re-run the original film - probably would have gotten higher ratings.
- Jim
I was in class at Pace University on Park Row when they were filming the great police car scene past there. (When they were transporting the money) They did at least 10 takes (probably more) taking the whole day and we were watching out of the classroom windows!! And to think 8 yrs later I joined the NYPD and was driving those cars lights & sirens!!!
You drove those old things? What were they, Plymouths or Dodges. Early
blue & white paint scheme. Personally, I'd take a late Chevy Caprice!
Joe C
The cop cars in the original Pelham appear to be 1973 Plymouth Furies, which were popular with police forces. Our cops in Cheshire, CT had them. They had the 440 V-8 with a police package, IIRC. Those cars from the early 70s seem huge today, even the ones touted as midsize and compact back then.
The remake of Pelham was waste of time and effort, not to mention money. I would definitely classify it as "not recommended".
Being a Mopar fan as well as a railfan, I've some background with Chrylser products. During the gas crunch of the mid-70's alot of the Plymouth Furys of the NYPD -- at least in the outer-borough Precincts -- were outfitted with small block 318's and in some cases even had the venerable slant-six engine (225).
Doug aka BMTman
A Fury with a slant six? I would hope they beefed up that engine; otherwise, you'd have an R-68-like cop car.
Some police departments went so far as to rebuild some of those 440s in later years.
I owned a '74 Fury Gran Sedan (4-door hardtop) with the interceptor package - ex-unmarked police car. 440 V-8, 8 mpg with a tail wind, but I loved it. $400 at the auction in '79 with only 60,000 miles on it (the odometer had NOT rolled, it was honest mileage). I drove it for about a year (and another 25,000 miles) and sold it for $750.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last time I saw the Taking of Pelham 123 was in 1998 on the Cantoneese station in Hong Kong, with English and Chineese Sub Titles, (Of coursed dubbed in Cantoneese) It was great. The next day was French Connection I I wondered if they were doing a Memorial to NYC Cops and Subways
We've gone through this before, but for the feel of the NYC subway, I think "The Incident" (1968) is the best, even if the idea of Ed McMahon being terrorized on an IRT 1939 World's Fair car always strikes me as a little funny.
Was the terrorist on the train Martin Sheen? If so, that was a good movie, acting & all. Love those 1939 cars, shot, of course, on the Bronx 3rd Ave El.
Joe C
Yes, Martin Sheen was one of the thugs, along with Tony Musante. Beau Bridges ended up beating both of them up by the time they got to Grand Central.
Would you believe that all the interior scenes were shot in a studio mockup? It was very meticulously built.
It did seem odd to see Ed McMahon in it. You almost expect Johnny Carson to board the train and start cracking one-liners after being introduced with Ed's patented "Heeee-eeere's Johnny!"
That remake was a bomb, acting included.
It is always fun to point out the buses in the background, taxis, etc,
in various movies, but that is all I'll say about that garbage.
The whole production crew should be ashamed, actors included.
Joe C
Does anyone know the seating capacity of the M-1, M-1A, AND M-2 cars currently in operation?
Since theses car have reached the end of useful life with the LIRR,they could be rebuilt and used in service over there . WITH the higher speeds and I must say better looking cars than the r44 ,servicewould improve and people would want to ride.Soft seats ,restroom,more comfortable ride copared to hard seats no restrooms and very bumpy ride .Which would you want.
ANYTHING but an M-1! Many of them are in terrible shape, getting to be almost as bad as the 1955 MP-75 coaches. I hear the R44's on the SI line are holding their own pretty well except for some leaks.
They DID use a few MP-72s from the LIRR (the ZIP's) back in the 1970's on Staten Island, just before the R44s came on - to replace the "E" types that were being phased out.
Wayne
The 1955 cars would be great if they kept the old comfortable & reversible seats and if they cleaned the windows every once in a while!!!
The 1955 LIRR cars would be great if they kept the old comfortable & reversible seats and if they cleaned the windows every once in a while!!!
A few leaks? The cars came back from an in-house rebuild with cracked walls, broken seats, and peeling interior paint! And they STILL look like crap inside.
-Hank
Actually, those weren't Zips. I've seen the photos - Zips didn't have round windows, they looked a LOT like ACMUs actually. I think those were the '75s.
The M-1s are effectively falling apart right now. From what I've heard, they've never been seriously rebuilt, and I've seen a few with steel plates (==holes) in the floor. I've noticed now that the M-7s are "comming in 2003", the M-1s seem to be falling apart, on cue, as did the '54s in the late 60's, and the diesel fleet did over the last few years.
Rumor mill:
Speaking of which, I've heard the DMs have been as flakey as the DEs, and Kawasaki's busy moding the C-3 fleet now. I've also heard #406 (?) is being robbed for parts, and 500/501 derailed while being moved the other week - anyone got any info on this?
12/04/99
M-1"s ON STATEN ISLAND RAILWAY !! hah!
"Can I have a M.A. reset please!
Bill Newkirk
12/04/99
Wayne,
The "Zip" cars were the MP-75's. The low roof MU's similar to Metro North's 1100's.
The original S.I.R.T. mu's were never called the E-types , but were classified as MUE-1's. This info from a friend of mine who is a superitendent of the line.
Bill Newkirk
I called them the "E" types (for lack of a better name - not really knowing what they were called) because the ones that were transferred to the BMT were called that.
I rode some of them back in 1972. They were AWFUL. They may have been handsome when new, but the one I rode never got any faster than maybe 20MPH and shook, rattled, hissed, creaked, groaned and clanked all the way from St.George to Tottenville.
Wayne
I rode some of them back in 1972. They were AWFUL. They may have been handsome when new, but the one I rode never got any faster than maybe 20MPH and shook, rattled, hissed, creaked, groaned and clanked all the way from St.George to Tottenville.
Yeah! Ain't it great! I used to love those cars. I used to call them the Staten Island A/B's. They were kind of a hybrid between an A/B and a BU. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR---SSSSSSSSS!
12/04/99
Wayne,
Shook,rattled,hissed,creaked,groaned and clanked.
That's called deferred maintenance !
Bill Newkirk
Oh, it was terrible! Seats were missing, windows were cracked, light bulbs were missing, the whole train seemed like it was shaking itself to death. The next year, 1973, found R44 cars out there. MUCH better.
Wayne
Wow, you mean they were almost as bad as the LIRR's fleet is???
*runs and ducks*
12/05/99
Don't laugh! THe same thing happened on the TA when a shortage of equipment brought back from the Coney Island scrap track some B-types. They actually went into service with light bulbs and seat cushions missing. How many cushions and bulbs missing was anybody's guess. This from a well trusted source I know.
Bill Newkirk
The original SIRT MU's were actually very comfortable cars to ride in. The thing to remember is that they were built much more to a suburban railway loading factor then the BRT/BMT Standards. The Standards had to combine in-city heavy rapid transit with large tracts of semi-suburban stretches in Brooklyn. The SIRT ME-1's (or MU-1E's) ran in a more leisurely setting and although there were busy stations along the line the only one that approximated the very heavy rush hour traffic of the NYCTA was of course St. George. They could seat 71 passengers in a combination of cross and longitudinal seating and the cross seats were reversible. One hundred cars were built;90 motors and 10 trailers. After the Tottenville Fire in 1927 five trailers were converted to motors. Fire has always been the bane of the Staten Island Rapid. A second fire at Saint George in 1946 destoyed eight cars, this combined with the five cars lost in the Tottenville Fire and two cars lost in a derailment left the SIRT with 85 cars.After the North Shore and South Beach Lines were abandoned in 1953 the 25 motor cars and the last 5 trailers were sent across the ocean to Brooklyn. This left SIRT with a total of 55 cars to cover the Tottenville Line. Again the SIRT's old nemisis stepped in and destroyed 7 cars in the Clifton Fire in 1962. The remaining number of cars,48 was perilously close to the full service requirement and left little room for spares. The fact that the fleet kept running as long as it did was due to the hard work of the crew at the Clifton Shops.
ME-1 388 is now at Branford and sits just down the tracks from BMT 2775. What stories these two old warriors must tell each other after the volunteers go home.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Best Wishes for Hanukkah to all sub-talkers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I second that motion.
Happy Hanukkah and Happy Holidays to all(this'll just get worse. Give it two weeks:):)
Next we need the Subtalk Holiday Party.
I second the motion! Happy Hanukkah to all our Sub-Talkers. I'm lighting the first candle as we speak!
Chuck Greene
Also to our Islamic Friends out Happy Ramadam, and do nt eat too much at night. Happy Chunakah from Hawaii
Happy Hanukkah from Syracuse, Home of Temple Society of Concord.
The same goes for me---Happy Hanukkah to all my Jewish friends on this website.
12/04/99
To all those who celebrate:
HAPPY HANUKKAH !!....have a joyious holiday.
Bill Newkirk
Happy Hanukkah from Philadelphia.
CLICK HERE
Yes. Happy Hanukkah to all.
Happy Hanukkah to everyone at SubTalk.
same from faxman in new jersey
Hanukah Sameah! (Happy Hanukah)
...from the Old City of Jerusalem.
May we merit to light the menorah (original candelabra) in the rebuilt 3rd Temple.
Hanukah Sameah! (Happy Hanukah)
...from the Old City of Jerusalem.
May we merit to light the menorah (original candelabra) in the rebuilt 3rd Temple.
As long as Muslims control the Temple Mount, that will not be possible. Also, a perfect, blemishless Red Heifer has not been bred yet; and, the question of where the Temple should be has still not been solved. Some say it is where the Dome of the Rock is, some say it is not. Nevertheless, I don't see the Third Temple being built in our lifetimes.
"Also, a perfect, blemishless Red Heifer has not been bred yet"
Have any Jewish Geneticists taken up that task?
"Also, a perfect, blemishless Red Heifer has not been bred yet"
Have any Jewish Geneticists taken up that task?
They have been trying for a good many years. Haven't you ever heard of "Melanie"? She is a Red Heifer who was thought to be blemishless, until they found a few white hairs on her.
Nevertheless, it is most important, especially on Hanukah, to raise consciousness about the Temple and the ultimate light that it will bring to the world: connection to Godly values, unity, peace and a striving for pure and good purpose in life.
I have to add -- yesterday I attended a wonderful unveiling by the Temple Institute of a perfectly constructed menorah (seven branched candelabra) meeting all of the requirements. It is being displayed in the "Cardo" of the Old City. It contains 43 kg of pure gold (for those who care $650,000 worth) and is a truly beautiful and inspiring reminder that what was once will be again, God willing.
Oops, forgot to post the other part of my message:
"Some say it is where the Dome of the Rock is, some say it is not. Nevertheless, I don't see the Third Temple being built in our lifetimes."
If that's the case, wherever it is built, an avenue should be built above it and it should be between First and Third Avenues.
If that's the case, wherever it is built, an avenue should be built above it and it should be between First and Third Avenues.
Yeah! Right?! The Third Temple in Jerusalem will be built long before the Second Avenue Subway in New York!
Happy Hanukkah!
Enjoy!
(I noticed it came early this year)
Doug aka BMTman
"(I noticed it came early this year)"
No, it didn't, it came on the 25th Of Kislev, as always.
Yes, it did. That's the old adage for the Jewish holidays: They always come either too early or too late.
We New Yorkers received a great Hanukkah present this year: a weekend of warm, mild weather perfect for train riding.
Happy holidays to all!
Yes indeed - Happy Chanukah to everyone! As I sit here I can see the lights of one of our two electric menorahs in the window, and the final flickering of the more traditional ones we lit this evening.
CLICK HERE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not the Jewish Holiday that are early or late, it is everything else.
Where do the funcky slant R40's roam these days? On what lines?
Normally they run on the: L,N, and Q. For the Williamsburg Bridge Reconstruction they ran on the M Shuttle. Rarely you can see them on the B Line on weekends. Also, when the Concourse Yard R68s were being linked they had 1 Slant on the D Line for the weekend.
To expand a bit on what R68A-5200 has stated, there are two squads of Slant R40 - one runs out of Coney Island (Southern Division) and the other runs out of Eastern Division.
The Coney Island group consists of units #4150-4395 and is mostly on the "Q" line, with some showing up on the "N". On the weekend, two consists run on the "B". The "Q" line is almost 100% Slant R40.
The Eastern Division group consists of units #4396-4449 and runs chiefly on the "L". There may be a few still on the "M" shuttle; this was the case when the Williamsburg Bridge closure service diversions were in effect.
Units out of service are #4200-4201, #4259, #4260, #4420-4421, #4427 and #4428; 292 units (146 pairs) are still in service.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
If you operate a R110B which car marker do you stop? The 10 or 8 car marker.
I think it's the 8 car mark. The train is either 8 or 9 67' cars. 10 makes 670, too long for most platforms so 9 gets you 603' and 8 gives you 536'.
Which is it?
Since only 6 cars are operable, the train is operating on the 'C' line. 6 x 67'= 402' or the equivalent of a 7 car R-32. I think they still use the 8 car marker.
I guess there will have to be new conductors indication boards set up in all stations if there are 9 cars and 3 car units. Probably 6 north and 3 south or reversed.
There are special R110B "blue" conductor indicator boards on every stop of both the A and D lines.
Those boards were put up when the 110B was 9 cars. Of course we all know that is not the case today. Therefore, those boards would have little relevance and would possibly need to be repositioned.
I have a question in regards to using metro-card. I have bought a metro card twice when in NYC when using the subway. This may sound like a crazy question but you are able to transfer free from subway to bus or bus to subway. I am POLISH so help me here how would say a bus operator know if you were transfering from the subway to a bus free. Just how does this setup work? I have only used the card on the subway and never did any transfering. Could somebody help me out on this? Thanks very much.
The Bus driver would not know. The farebox would. The transfer is encoded on the MetroCard when you swipe it thru the turnstile.
The farebox will display: "1 Xfer OK" so the driver will know that it was a transfer but only the farebox will know that it was subway-to-bus.
Ron, people don't make Polish jokes anymore.
Latest guesstimate for Hoboken service is 16 to 20 months after the March 1, 2000 startup, or from July 1, 2001 to November 1, 2001. Figure two years from now, or the end of 2001, to be safe. Canal Slip, immediately south of the Erie-Lackawanna Terminal, must be bridged or filled in.
For those of you who like to tour the Left Bank, they will be running LRVs as far north as Exchange Place this weekend. Essex St residents may park on the tracks to protest these Saturday and Sunday tests, although operations these days will be a regular event come spring.
"For those of you who like to tour the Left Bank"
Actually, New Jersey is the Right Bank.
Politically?
No, Physically
I stopped in the TM Store in GCT yesterday and found they have a supply of Subway Car models. They are made by RailKing (MTH Electric Trains) and are MTA licensed. They are in O-27 Scale and are supposed to look like R-42 cars (all silver) although the fronts are not as rounded as the real ones. The route designation on the front is E and the side destination sign reads: E Jamaica Center - Parsons
World Trade Center. The sides also contain the MTA logo
(w/o the words New York City Subway).
There is some interior detail (seats etc) and there are
lights in the ceiling so when the car is electrified it is lit.
The undercarriage is also detailed.
The cars are available in two configurations:
2 Car Set Non-Powered $99.95 plus $8.25 S/T = $108.20
4 Car Set - Powered $395.95 plus $32.67 S/T = $428.62
IMPORTANT NOTE: Because the sets are limited there are NO DISCOUNTS
given on these items.
Funny. At the Transit Museum (Brooklyn) they said they would be getting the MTH sets in time for Christmas, but I have yet to see them being offered.
Interesting that the Grand Central store has the 2-car unpowered sets for $99 when they are 10-15 dollars cheaper at model railroad shops. I guess the Transit Museum didn't get the sets from MTH at a discount, so they have to charge as they do.
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen photos of these models on E-Bay. I'm not too impressed. The accuracy level is lacking. I've seen some really nice looking model subway cars on the web. Check out <"http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/layouts.html">http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/layouts.html
why didnt they repoduce an old R-1
R-9 OR AN OLD IRT 12 or low volt.?
or an old multisection ??
or the redbird irts??
Corgi Toys (famous for those 60's and 70's excellent die-cast cars) was supposed to do an antique subway car -- either an R-1 or R-10 car -- in colloboration with the Transit Museum. This was around the time they came out with the nice series of fishbowl GMC buses in O gauge.
Anyhow, it seems the museum didn't show enough interest and the thing just died. However, Corgi was still interested in doing some kind of rapid transit car, so they went ahead on their own and released a series of PCC cars capable of running on 0-27 (Lionel) track.
Doug aka BMTman
A toy train manufacturer like MTH is hard-pressed to create an accurate model of a sixty-foot subway car because of the length restrictions they must deal with regarding going around curves.
I have a feeling that if they had chosen a fifty-foot car to model, like the R-17, it would have been a knockout. The R-42 was probably chosen because it is in current service, and their sales people felt they could sell more of them than an obsolete car like the R-17 which most people have forgotten about.
why didnt the repoduce a REDBURD R 32 or the cars on the FLUSHING LINE
?????????????????????????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"why didnt the repoduce a REDBURD R 32 or the cars on the FLUSHING LINE"
An R-32 is not a Redbird (that's with an I), the cars on the Flushing Line are.
I've seen photos of these models on E-Bay. I'm not too impressed. The accuracy level is lacking. I've seen some really nice looking model subway cars on the web. Check out http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/layouts.html
Yes those are great models, but aren't they all scratch-built by people who have built up their skills over many years?
Yes those are great models, but aren't they all scratch-built by people who have built up their skills over many years?
Yes. Why can't people with skills like that build the prototypes for the commercially built models? Those MTH R-42's don't hold a candle to Pasquale J. Villani's models. I've built several subway cars of my own, and quite good ones, at that; but even my stuff can't be compared to Villani's stuff.
Thanks for the compliments! Actually, it is mostly my models that are shown in the "Layouts" section of Mr. Villani's web site. Although the El structure is entirely scratchbuilt, the subway car models are commercial! Some are very limited run brass models that I painted and detailed, others are limited run epoxy castings that have been built up into finished models. The R-21/22 cars are made from Images Replicas injection molded styrene kits that have been painted and finished with additional details. Other modelers have contributed their talents also, notably Paul Kupersmith who custom cast the fantastic NYCTA style signals. Please check Mr. Villani's web site as he has quite a few resources for the modeler including links to manufacturers making NYCTA models. By the way, the El structure (which is NOT a commercial model) is over 16 feet long and contains over 30,000 individual pieces of basswood and cardstock! If you like these models, stay tuned for details, as it is planned to display the El at a train show in the greater NYC area next summer.
Thanks for the compliments! Actually, it is mostly my models that are shown in the "Layouts" section of Mr. Villani's web site. Although the El structure is entirely scratchbuilt, the subway car models are commercial! Some are very limited run brass models that I painted and detailed, others are limited run epoxy castings that have been built up into finished models. The R-21/22 cars are made from Images Replicas injection molded styrene kits that have been painted and finished with additional details. Other modelers have contributed their talents also, notably Paul Kupersmith who custom cast the fantastic NYCTA style signals. Please check Mr. Villani's web site as he has quite a few resources for the modeler including links to manufacturers making NYCTA models. By the way, the El structure (which is NOT a commercial model) is over 16 feet long and contains over 30,000 individual pieces of basswood and cardstock! If you like these models, stay tuned for details, as it is planned to display the El at a train show in the greater NYC area next summer.
Frank-
Yours is the most impressive rapid transit layout that I've seen. I was into scratchbuilding rapid transit equipment from 1969-1975. I, at one time also had a 3-foot el, but nothing like yours. BTW, are the MUDC's that you have scratchbuilt or commercial? What about all the other stuff, like the R-10? A/B's, R-15's, R-17's R-22's and the like, I've seen commercially available, but not MUDC's and R-10's.
True, it's not as accurate as can be, but considering no other companies out there are making subway models commercially available, sometimes we should just be thankful something was made at all.
I congratulate MTH on such a bold move. Hopefully in the future they will release more New York subway equipment. (And perhaps the next series of models may have more detailing for the die-hard subway buff).
And BTW, what could we expect for affordable subway models in 0 gauge (2 unpowered cars go for approx. $85)?
Doug aka BMTman
And BTW, what could we expect for affordable subway models in 0 gauge (2 unpowered cars go for approx. $85)?
There's a 2-car unpowered set on E-Bay right now with a current bid of $64.99. That auction closes in 5 hours from now.
Since the MTH subway car sets had to be ordered at hobby shops in advance (i.e. they were a special limited run of the sets) I expect the 0 gauge R-42's -- both powered and unpowered -- to appreciate in value over the next few years (unless MTH re-issues them due to the demand).
I wonder who is selling off a set already?
Doug aka BMTman
Since the MTH subway car sets had to be ordered at hobby shops in advance (i.e. they were a special limited run of the sets) I expect the 0 gauge R-42's -- both powered and unpowered -- to appreciate in value over the next few years (unless MTH re-issues them due to the demand).
I wonder who is selling off a set already?
Doug aka BMTman
Go to EBAY. Type "mth", "subway" in the search, just as I have it here with the quotes and comma. I've seen up to 6 MTH sets at one time. Right now, there are 3. An unpowered 2-car set and 2 powered 4-car sets are available. To make it easy, just follow this link http://search.ebay.com/cgi-bin/texis/ebay/results.html?query=%22mth%22%2C+%22subway%22&ht=1&maxRecordsReturned=300&maxRecordsPerPage=50&SortProperty=MetaEndSort
why didnt they make the r-1-r-9 series
or the old low voltage irt??
irt 12 or 33-36 REDBIRDS ???
WHAT DO YOU THINK ???
why didnt they make the r-1-r-9 series
or the old low voltage irt??
irt 12 or 33-36 REDBIRDS ???
WHAT DO YOU THINK ???
Some people build their own. I did that 25-30 years ago. Unfortunately, my eyes aren't what they used to be (probably due to model building) and my hands aren't as dexterous as they used to be, so my model building days are over. Out of cardboard, I built an IRT Lo-V, a 1938 World's Fair car, a deck roof Hi-V, an R-15, a 3-section BMT Triplex and a BMT BU gate car. That's what I still have. Back in the mid 1970's, I built and sold a Lo-V, a 1938 World's Fair car and an IRT gate car. I wish I never would have sold those 3 cars. There are others that build subway cars out of resin from molds. See Modeling the New York Subway. this guy does excellent work!
Hey Paul said in one of his postings that he built a whole R1-9 motorman's cab in his house!!!
Thank you Sarge, for giving me an opportunity to
talk about my favorite topic-- myself. Back in 70's
or whenever they were scrapping the R9's in Coney
Island Yard, I was working for Brighton Laundry
which was right by the yards. I acquired, by legal
means, almost all the components of the R9 cab.
Controller, brake stand, windshield, side window,
door, fold up seat, main switch box, side box,
windshield wiper, conductor door controls, plate the
conductor stood on, folding protective gate, marker
lights, express sign. etc.... At the time, United
Housewreckers in Stamford Conn, had purchased an R9
car which sat in their yard. I went up there with a
ruler and with geometric logic I measured out the
cab. Then I bought 3 sheets of 4'x8' 5/8" Nova Ply
and cut out holes for the doors, windows, etc. This
took a while to do, since I was afraid of making
mistakes so I did nothing for a while to prevent
that from happening. Anyway, eventually I put all
the parts I had together, and it currently sits in
one of the bedrooms in my apartment. Judging from
the level of many of my posts here in SubTalk, you
might think that I spend most of my waking fantasy
life in there, but I don't. Building it is probably
one of the more unique things I have done with my
life.
One of the people who posts here came over with his young
daughter and saw it. ( To protect his reputation I
won't say who ---- also to protect myself since
neither of them have been seen since. ) Actually
his daughter had a lot of fun playing around in it.
If anyone would like to see the motorman's cab, drop
me an e-mail and I'd be happy to have you over. If
you do e-mail me, be sure to mention that you saw
this offer on SubTalk and mention the special
promotion offer number 6 7/8.
Thats ok Paul. By the way, the pullman green paint had me fooled. I thought it WAS original, especially for the room's lighting. BTW, I had to explain to my daughter why the trains of today don't make that growling noise heard on the tape. Guess they don't make 'em like they used to.
Is there any chance of you posting some pictures of your homebuilt "cab" for those of us who have no chance of ever seeing it in person?
Is there any chance of you posting some pictures of your homebuilt "cab" for those of us who have no chance of ever seeing it in person?
Yes! Please do!
Okay, there's two people who asked for it. I need some help with this. I'm using WebTv and I don't have a scanner. I took some pictures of the cab this morning and I will have them developed by Monday. Can you suggest some ways I can get the pictures either up on a web-page that I have on WebTv or on some other site. I don't know if David would want them on this site. Any help with be appreciated. paul
12/04/99
C'mon heypaul ,fess up , where did you ditch the R-9 trucks?
Bill Newkirk
C'mon heypaul ,fess up , where did you ditch the R-9 trucks?
In Coney Island Creek. That's why the Creek is no longer navigable!
Okay, there's two people who asked for it. I need some help with this. I'm using WebTv and I don't have a scanner. I took some pictures of the cab this morning and I will have them developed by Monday. Can you suggest some ways I can get the pictures either up on a web-page that I have on WebTv or on some other site. I don't know if David would want them on this site. Any help with be appreciated. paul
I would love to see pictures of your R-9 cab.
I think Chris R and / or Jeff Rosen know how to put photos on WebTv. I know nothing about how to do this. The only way I'd be able to help you is to put the pix on a web site once they're digitized. Maybe someone you know with a computer and scanner can help you scan the photos and save them as jpegs. E-mail me the jpegs and I'll get them on a site for you, and give you and everyone else the URL. There are so many places you can publish and maintain a free web site these days. Xoom, Angelfire, Geocities, MSN, AOL (and you don't even need an internet account to publish a site on MSN or AOL, either).
You can go to Walgreens on Avenue U and East 58th Street, near Pergament, their photoshop will let you develop your photos onto the internet, you can log in (they give you a number when you get your prints) download your photos, and display them. I think you can use one of the transload sites, but I'm not sure. You can always give the number to me and I can download them for you and post them at metrocard.cjb.net.
Eugenius--- you're a genius. I all ready took the roll I shot in. The process you're explaining will work with 35 mm film, right ?? Then they post it on the internet, and I can download it to my Cracker Jacks prize WebTV. That sounds great. Is it expensive, or about the same price as a developing a regular roll of film? paul
Visit http://kodak.photonet.com for more information. I think you can bring already developed negatives too.
Here, here. That makes three of us.
Now all you need is the rest of the train. (could 8 cars fit in your apartment?) Then the next project could be a Mack bus!
12/04/99
Hey Jeff , give heypaul a chance! First he needs to ask building managment about running 600VDC up to his apartment!
Bill Newkirk
No big deal, just get a transformer and a rectifier, then plug it in to it's own outlet.
Not to mention putting down track, signals, the whole works.
heypaul,
ever thought about rigging your R-9 motorman's cab controls so you can them to perform household tasks like having the controller as a dimmer switch for room lighting or the brake handle to adjust the heat from the apartment radiator? Just some thoughts on the practical home use of the equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
Always a comedian, hey Doug. What people have suggested and would be a blast, would be to synchronize the R 1/9 braking sounds with application of the brake handle. If I ever did that I probably would never leave the house. Actually that probably would be quite doable, since the brake stand has a whole bunch of contacts inside that could be used to trigger tchhh-ssss when the brakes were released. tchhhh-ssss --- I got to run and go torment a couple of high school kids with their algebra and geometry.
Of course, synchronizing the controller to one of your tapes would be a piece of cake. Not to mention the trigger box.
I have to get a subwoofer one of these days...
Steve---- I don't see how synchronizing the controller to the tape would be a piece of cake. Do you mean synching it like a singer lip synchs to a recording of the song? Cause I mean getting the sounds to correspond to the action of the brake handle. Not just syching it to a recorded application of the brakes, but getting it to respond to my application. I can see where the trigger box could be done easier, since the door opening seems to be an all or nothing application. I was thinking that putting the sounds on a CD and using he controller to select a track might be more responsive--- but that's academic because currently I don't have a CD player. WebTV is the most advanced bit of technology I have going for me right now, with the exception of the 1954 Kelvinator refrigerator which is still chugging away. Speaking of which, that has a compressor, and I probably could put in a relay or something, that when the compressor kicks off I can get the tchhh-ssss and maybe when it's running I could get the nice chugging of the R9's compressors. What dreams!!
I hope to get the pictures back tonight, and as soon as I figure out how to hold them in front of the TV screen so as to load them on my WebTv webpage, I'll will get documentation of my accomplishment up so that all assembled can tell me what I did wrong.
heypaul,
ever thought about rigging your R-9 motorman's cab controls so you can them to perform household tasks like having the controller as a dimmer switch for room lighting or the brake handle to adjust the heat from the apartment radiator? Just some thoughts on the practical home use of the equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
I like it!
Even better, have the controller hooked up to an AC power switch. Plug the PC into that. Configure the computer to play a wav file of an AMUE train running. When you pull back the controller, the computer boots and makes the rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr sound of an AMUE train, instead of the Windows 98 startup sound. Take your pick of an AMUE train: Lo-V, D-Type, A/B, etc.
How about all of the above plus DEMAND that Mike's Train House produce R9 cars that you can control with your cab equipment.
If you lived in Japan, all your prayers would be answered! KATO makes a controller for model railroads that mimics the operation of a typical mascon/brake handle controller for an electric commuter train. It works just like the real thing. It is compatible with N and HO scale equipment, but would not run O gauge trains. The only drawback is it's availability and price. It IS NOT available in the states, and it costs upwards of US$800. The Japanses also have a neat train simulation game for the Sony Playstation calle "Densha de GO!" (Let's go by Train!). This video game gives you the perspective of the train operator. You must operate the train over a pre-programmed route (actual train lines in Japan including an elevated line - Osaka Kanjyo Sen) and make all the scehduled stops without braking hard or overshooting the platform. A special controller that incorporates the mascon/brake handle is also available. It too is not availble in the states through normal distribution, but you CAN get it from video game importers. You will also need to buy a Japanese Playstation or have a domestic one "chipped" so that it can play import games. Check out the internet (search under "Densha de GO!") for sources and details of this game.
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
The gates were made of cut pieces of window screen (I did this in the days when window screen was made of aluminum, not plastic), and marker lights were made of cut pieces of matchsticks.
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
The gates were made of cut pieces of window screen (I did this in the days when window screen was made of aluminum, not plastic), and marker lights were made of cut pieces of matchsticks.
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
The gates were made of cut pieces of window screen (I did this in the days when window screen was made of aluminum, not plastic), and marker lights were made of cut pieces of matchsticks.
I forgot to mention, its made in H-O scale. I built this one in 1975.
Thanks so much for posting the pictures of your model of the open platform gate car. It looks just fine to me, and you know how much I think of the gate cars.
I am sort of curious as to how you decided on the 1200 number that you put on it because 1234 is the number of one of the cars that were rebuilt into "Q" cars.
You did such a good job on that one that you should consider building two more to create a three car gate train. I bet it would look real sharp. I know it was many years ago, but do you remember how many hours you put into that construction job?
Thanks so much for posting the pictures of your model of the open platform gate car. It looks just fine to me, and you know how much I think of the gate cars.
I am sort of curious as to how you decided on the 1200 number that you put on it because 1234 is the number of one of the cars that were rebuilt into "Q" cars.
You did such a good job on that one that you should consider building two more to create a three car gate train. I bet it would look real sharp. I know it was many years ago, but do you remember how many hours you put into that construction job?
Thank you for your appreciation of my work. I used 1234 out of convenience. I had the number decals numbered 0123456789, so I just cut out 1234 and put it on the car. Besides, the 1200 series was used on the BU's. I have a photo of a BU that was of the same type as the one I modeled, and its number was 1257.
I don't think I could ever build any more subway cars. I was a teenager back then (21 in 1975 when I built the BU). I am in my 40's now. My eyes aren't what they used to be (probably due to the strain of model building), and my hands aren't as dexterous as they used to be. As for how many hours I put into the construction, each car took between 30 and 60 days. I used to put many hours a day into it and did most of my work during the summer or during Christmas and Easter recess (no school). I worked from H-O scale plans. When I didn't have plans for a car that I wanted to build, I would draw my own, using existing plans as a guide to keep things to scale. The gate car plans that I had were from a slightly different IRT gate car. I had that, and a Lo-V plan. I drew up my own H-O scale plans from the Lo-V plans, modifying them to deck roof Hi-V and 1938 WF. I had to draw the D-Type plans from scratch, pretty much, with nothing much to go by. I even drew up H-O plans for the A/B's, but I never attempted to build one. I used a scissor to cut straight pieces of cardboard and used single-edged razor blades from an old box cutter to cut out the windows. I put the cardboard on top of newspapers to do the cutting. I pasted clear plastic inside the cars to simulate the glass of the windows. The route and destination signs were made from cut pieces of business cards, blacked over with crayon and etched with a pin, then pasted on the clear plastic windows on the inside prior to assembly. You probably can't make out what the route and destination signs on my BU are from the scan. It is "CULVER LINE" "CONEY ISLAND". I started doing this in 1969, when the only way you could get rapid transit cars was to build them yourself. The first commercial model subway car builder was Q-Car Company, which got started in 1972. As a non-working student, I couldn't afford to buy their stuff, so I continued building my own. I used to have a 3-foot el structure that I built out of hobby wood, toothpics and cardboard. Its really funny. The only materials that I ever used for the cars and el that had anything to do with train modeling was the trucks for the cars and the tracks for the el. Everything else was 100% scratchbuilt from pure raw materials.
I can see those hours adding up just in reading your description of what you went through in building the model.
I have a vague recollection of someone posting here in recent months that the 1200's were being offered commercially (Was that you?).The post was made because they were trying to find out what color to paint their newly acquired models.
I recall some years ago that a company offered two car sets of the 600 series gate cars in brass for several hundred dollars. I think that company's name was WP Car Company.
I guess if you don't want to try to build any more, I sure better not even think about trying, because I am a lot older than you. Thanks for all of the information!
I can see those hours adding up just in reading your description of what you went through in building the model.
I have a vague recollection of someone posting here in recent months that the 1200's were being offered commercially (Was that you?).The post was made because they were trying to find out what color to paint their newly acquired models.
I recall some years ago that a company offered two car sets of the 600 series gate cars in brass for several hundred dollars. I think that company's name was WP Car Company.
I guess if you don't want to try to build any more, I sure better not even think about trying, because I am a lot older than you. Thanks for all of the information!
I never offered anything commercially. Back in 1973 and 1974, I did sell an IRT gate car, a Lo-V and a 1938 WF car at the ERA meetings, which I bitterly regret. I was a college student with no source of income other than my allowance from my parents, and selling subway cars. I sold the Lo-V and WF cars for $35 a piece and the Gate Car for $50. At the time, I didn't think I could get any more for them because they were "only" cardboard! Damn! To tell you the truth, I didn't think they would last too long. I thought they would get brittle and fall apart after several years. They are between 25 and 30 years old by now. The paint probably preserves them. They'll outlast anything the TA has running. I, unlike the TA will not scrap them after 35 years! All I can say is that I hope whoever bought those 3 cars from me still has them. I hope they didn't get destroyed (kids, pets) or thrown out.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Hey, I gave away a Nolan Ryan rookie card when we moved to Connecticut in 1973, something I still kick myself for doing. Of course, no one had any idea that Ryan would post the sort of numbers he did during his career. The Mets could have gotten a lot more for him, that's for sure.
I'm not into baseball cards anymore, but I did keep my 1968 Tom Seaver card.
Getting back on topic, one of my sister's friends once expressed an interest in one of my side destination signs. Nothing ever came of it, and I'm not so sure I'd want to part with any of my signs.
Just terrific! Please post photos of your other cars if you can! Also, I'm sure that Mr. Villani would love to have your models posted on his web site, which is devoted to modeling the NYC transit system.
You did great work in cardboard! Many people find it hard to believe that great models can be made from this stuff, but your work clearly shows it CAN BE DONE! All you need is the DETERMINATION. I don't know if you have ever seen the wonderful cardboard O scale models of Vern Gillman. Another model traction pioneer, Mr. Gillman has made marvelous models of various NYCTA prototypes including R-10's, R-12's, R-15's etc. out of cardstock that have full interiors and operate off of working third rail! He often displays his work at train shows in the greater NYC area, and has been at the Coney Island Shops Open Houses in the past.
Does any other city in the world use the same exact subway cars as we do here in New york? Can I one day wait for the subway in another city and see a train pull in looking exactly like one of ours?
No - They are pretty much custom built to the agency's specs.
Wayne
Does any other city in the world use the same exact subway cars as we do here in New york? Can I one day wait for the subway in another city and see a train pull in looking exactly like one of ours?
Because I grew up on the BMT Standards, when I was a kid, I thought every city with a subway had cars like the Standards. I was partially right. Philadelphia's Broad Street cars were similar. But the answer to that question is No. Subway cars are not the same everywhere. Fact is, no two cities have the same cars. They're all different. Subway cars are not like trolleys or buses. One true fact is that some lines in different cities are compatable. The SOAC ran in New York, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago. You can run a slant 40 on the Broad St. Subway in Philadelphia.
The only place I know where you can interchange Subway Cars is Singapore and Hong Kong. Singapore is almost a exact duplication of Hong Kong, same builder, mfg. Specs. When I look at photos the only wau I can tell is by the Red strip on the side for HK and the crooked strip On HK
The only place I know where you can interchange Subway Cars is Singapore and Hong Kong. Singapore is almost a exact duplication of Hong Kong, same builder, mfg. Specs. When I look at photos the only wau I can tell is by the Red strip on the side for HK and the crooked strip On HK
I would think that if the SOAC could run in NY, Boston, Phila., that those cities could use interchangeable equipment. The old Broad St. cars were so much like the A/B's, why couldn't you run them here and a slant R-40 there? The Broad St. cars were 67'X10', just like our A/B's. Tracks and 3rd rails are the same. Mkt-Fkd is another story.
Route 100 in Philadelphia used CTA equiptment for some time, I hear. They also used some of the old Almond Joy cars, but I do not know how they did that since they are a completely different track gauge.
Issac: At the time the Market-Frankford M-3's were sent to Noristown,PATH was in the process of disposing of some cars of the Class K fleet. Although many Class K's went into work service a number were sunk in the ocean off New Jersey to make a breakwater near the Jimmy Hoffa gravesite. The trucks from these cars were sent to Philly and used on the M-3's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always thought Jimmy Hoffer was buried below the 50 yard line at Giant Stadium
On a visit to PATH a few years ago, our tour guide mentioned a PATH employee who was also a SCUBA diver who would periodically dive where that artificial reef was. While the visit was 5 years ago, at that time we were told that the K-cars were holding up very well underwater!
--Mark
Yes, Route 100 had some old 6000-series cars from Chicago.
I don't know about specs, but the old cars that used to run on Market-Frankford in the 80s were quite reminiscent of many NYC trains. Broad St. curiously reminds me of the trains here in Baltimore.
I don't know about specs, but the old cars that used to run on Market-Frankford in the 80s were quite reminiscent of many NYC trains. Broad St. curiously reminds me of the trains here in Baltimore.
The old Broad St. cars were very similar to the BMT Standards, being 67' long and 10' wide. Even the door arrangements were the same. The MKT-FKD (Almond Joy) cars weren't compatable with anything in NY. The track gauge is different and the 3rd rail contact us underneath, not on top, like here.
12/05/99
S.O.A.C.
As discussed a couple of months ago , this car was sent to cities to show that a "universal" type car can be built saving transit operators big money. You know , off the shelf , like the Duwag LRV's.
Bu however , all the transit operators had their own ideas and that killed S.O.A.C..
Bill Newkirk
As discussed a couple of months ago , this car was sent to cities to show that a "universal" type car can be built saving transit operators big money. You know , off the shelf , like the Duwag LRV's.
Bu however , all the transit operators had their own ideas and that killed S.O.A.C..
Looking at it in retrospect, I don't know what purpose SOAC served except to give us railfans something unusual to ride and photograph for a while. The cars that it most resembled was the R-44 (the 46's weren't out yet). NY didn't make any improvements because of the SOAC. No other city used it for their car designs either. It was just more federal money blown.
NY didn't make improvements of the SOAC because the SOAC was built based on 2 R-44s that had some kind of accident at, I think, the DOT test facility in Pueblo, Colorado. That would mean the R-44s came first, then the SOAC, then the R-46s, but of course, I could be incorrect.
--Mark
NY didn't make improvements of the SOAC because the SOAC was built based on 2 R-44s that had some kind of accident at, I think, the DOT test facility in Pueblo, Colorado. That would mean the R-44s came first, then the SOAC, then the R-46s, but of course, I could be incorrect.
--Mark
Your order of events is correct. The R-44's came out in 1971. The SOAC came out in 1974. The R-46 came out in either 1975 or 1976. I do know that there were no R-46's when SOAC roamed the tracks of New York.
Actually the SOAC cars appeared at Transpo '72 at Dulles Airport in D.C. It was a one-of-a-kind expo dealing with public tranportation, a rare dealin these times. Most of the exhibit was planes but there was a good deal of bus displays. The U.A. Turbotrain was there too.
Quite enjoyable; never repeated.
Joe C
Unfortunately, the standardized mass transit vehicle ended with the PCC. Today each agency has its own sense of style, functionality and ammenities. The closest thing to a NYCT car is likely running on PATH. Couplers and operator's controls are somewhat similar.
12/04/99
[Unfortunately,the standardized mass transit vehicle ended with the PCC]
Not true. The PCC wasn't really standardized. Different widths,track guages,lenghts,door placements and other miscellaneous items. The PCC was standard in a way , but different to each transit lines specifications. Compare a narrowq width Philadelphia PCC to a Newark City subway PCC. Compare the lenght of a Toronto PCC to a Chicago PCC , (Chicago) now that's a long PCC with a whole lot of doors.
If you want to compare standardized equipment , compare Miami and Baltimore. Same thing , different color schemes. Los Angeles is very similar to the Miami/Baltimore car.
I heard that South Pole Transit has cars identical to our R-68's. But all the motormen bear a striking resembelence to heypaul!!
Bill Newkirk
Thank you all for the responses. I see that no two cities are alike in terms of their subway systems.
Yet another response.
The SIRT were LIKE the BMT Standards cars; SIMILAR!
So,too, the Cambridge-Dorchester "standards" for Boston. Those and the Philly Broad St cars were all LIKE the BMT cars. One car reminiscent of the other.
Now, the Baltimore MTA subway cars are almost EXACTLY alike to the Miami Metrorail cars, just some minor differences in agency specs.& colors. ALso, MTA Los Angeles'new Red Line cars are based on these designs. However, Ankara, Turkey uses Bombardier cars identical to TTC's; again some minor agency preferences.
Other than that, yes, all agencies are pretty much on their own.
Joe C.
Two questions:
1. Baltimore and Miami were both built as part of the same order, weren't they? (The LA cars do seem to be descendents of that model, too.)
2. Weren't the State-of-the-Art cars part of the R-44 order (or at least two extras using the same basic plan)?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Two questions:
1. Baltimore and Miami were both built as part of the same order, weren't they? (The LA cars do seem to be descendents of that model, too.)
2. Weren't the State-of-the-Art cars part of the R-44 order (or at least two extras using the same basic plan)?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
1. Baltimore and Miami are separate cities with separate operating authorities and sepatate funding. No, they weren't part of the same order.
2. Although the SOAC bears a striking resemblance to the R-44's, the SOAC was not part of the R-44 order. The R-44 was designed by the MTA and built by St. Louis Car Co., whereas the SOAC was designed by a Federal agency called the Urban Mass Transit Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation and built by Boeing-Vertol.
The Baltimore and Miami cars are 99.99% identical - same body, trucks, motors and control equipment. The only difference is that the Baltimore cars have end signs. The Miami cars don't.
>> The only difference is that the Baltimore cars have end signs. The Miami cars don't. >>
Also, the Baltimore cars have heaters, the Miami cars don't.
>2. Weren't the State-of-the-Art cars part of the R-44 order (or at
>least two extras using the same basic plan)?
Look at
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soacstats.html
-Dave
Sorry, guy, the SOAC was built with R44 bodies, supplied and built by St.Louis Car. Yes, UMTA had its hand in it.
The LA/Baltimore deal was a consortium purchase, to keep expenses down.
By the way, after yesterday's posts on this subject, something came to mind. Someone asked about cars on different systems. One answer should be the SIRT cars running on BMT lines in the 1950's.
Joe C
The SIRT cars were designed so that they could operate on BMT rails and navigate through BMT tunnels. Had the tunnel to Staten Island become reality, it would have been very common to see SIRT cars on, say, the 4th Ave. line not long after it opened.
Riding a Manhattan-bound F at 4:45 this morning (yawn!) through the new 36th street interlocking, it appeared as though crews were installing a new switch between the Manhattan-bound express track and the lead to the 63rd street tunnel (it was tough to see without a railfan window on the R-46!).
Lots of work equipment along the route -- including a diesel-drawn consist (one work car plus crane) sitting at Roosevelt Ave. on the Manhattan-bound express track.
That switch has been there for nearly 2 weeks, and the leading track down the ramp towards 21 St. appears to be complete, concrete and all. It looks almost ready to go.
It would seem that they will be able to run work trains through from end to end by now (sans signals). Looks like it's time for a late night photo expedition after the first of the year.
12/04/99
A photo expedition after the first of the year? Could this be a SubTalk thing?
Bill Newkirk
From the work being done at the old Long Island City HS at 28th Street here in LIC, they are still going down under the school everyday. On the corner of the school there has always been standpipe connections for both levels. The standpipes are labeled "NYCTA" and "LIRR". Accross the street where my old parking field stands the new and finished ventilation tower but they are still working in the building every day.
I have to walk over to the open pit one lunch hour to see how much more they have covered up. All work under the N line is done but the open pit by the vent. tower in the old parking field is surounded by plywood fence and not easy to view (unless you get a quick peek from the N train).
I would consider this a Subtalk thing to this extent. I'll go with one or two NYCT people who are trained in track safety and then let Dave publish the photos. Non-NYCT employees need not apply. Anyone interested can E-mail me and we can set it up.
In a recent vision I had, a former employee of
Transit Transit revealed to me an incredible plot
related to the threatened transit strike. He
claimed that the MTA hired a consultant from the WWF
to help orchestrate the transit negotiations. All
the threats and demands have been carefully planned
to lead up to STRIKE 1999 which will be a special
Transit Transit pay per view event on cable TV. The
interviews you see on the news are just like the
pre-match interviews on the WWF.
However, it is all leading up to a SETTLEMENT at
the last minute. The negotiators on both sides will
be seen leaving the final contract talks with arms
around each other, and they will be taken to the
Prospect Park Station, where a new R-142A will be
waiting. They will all help decorate this Millenial
Car with Holiday decorations, much like one operator
at SEPTA does with an LRV. After the decorations
are complete, they will all gather around a cozy
fire in the fireplace of the R-142A and they will
sing Christmas Carols. ( Yes, each R-142 will have
a fireplace, to give customers a cozy feeling in the
wintertime.)
To further this show of unity, two of the more
dissident union voices from our SubTalk will conduct
the singers. One of them agreed to do this only if
he is made as the Joker as portrayed by Jack
Nicholson. This will be happily done, as there will
be no limits to prove to the world that MTA will be
entering the new Millenium as one happy family eager
to be going your way.
Note to R142 fans. The decorated train with a Santa
aboard will go into regular service on the Franklin
Shuttle. Concerned people in cars and shops about the performance of the cars will
station a diesel and work crane along the route in
the event of any horrible accidents. Health &
Hospitals Corporation will keep their Mobile
Emergency Room Vehicle as well as their Mortuary
Wagon on Hot Standby.
Try as much as you like to forget it, remember you
heard this scoop on SubTalk.
I can picture a last minute settlement, I can even picture labor and management arm in arm, but no matter how hard I try, I can't picture a fireplace in a R-142. I think you must be overdosing on Entenmann's during this holiday season.
I can't picture an R-142 platforming at Prospect Park. The rest might happen.
The negotiators on both sides will be seen leaving the final contract talks with arms around each other, and they will be taken to the Prospect Park Station, where a new R-142A will be waiting.
That's not what I thought you were going to say: I thought it was going to be:
"The negotiators on both sides will be seen leaving the final contract talks with arms around each other, and they will be taken to the Park Place station, where a five car wooden L train with a scab motorman will be waiting."
I have read a great deal of messages either in praise of, or in denunciation, of Mayor Rudy, and though people who live in New York City have a better feel of things than non-New York city residents in such matters, sometimes an "outsider" can see a thing or two as well.
Simply put, if you think Hillary Clinton is going to be an improvement for the New York Subway System or for the state in general, I know a bridge that I can see you for a song. To wit, Hilarious Hillary is a pathalogical liar like her hubby, an elitist of the most disgusting order, and one who really holds middle class wage earners in contempt.
She would probably never ride the subway as it would be beneath her, a comfortable limo being more in style for that snob.
I have noticed over the years, however, of a curious malady that seems
to effect New Yorkers, that being their penchant for showing a lack of
pride in their state by accepting with open arms political "carpetbaggers" over their native sons. Bobby Kennedy (who I admired) is one, Buckley (whose first name I can't remember) is another. New Yorkers rejected native sons Ken Keating and Charles Goodell, both decent Senators, for these two people, neither of which was an effective Senator for New York. New Yorkers might be making that mistake for the third time.
I can tell you this: That sort of crap doesn't happen here in California. Pierre Sallinger tried to carpetbag his way into our state and even defeated Alan Cranston in the Demo Senate Primary in 1964. That resulted in voters deserting the Demos in droves to put George Murphy in the Senate. Two years later, Texan Lloyd Hand tried the same crap in the Demo Gubernatorial primary, and voters rejectred him in total. New York is a great state, Rudy has been a great mayor.
Show some real pride New Yorkers and send Hillary back to the White House or Arkansas or Yale, or wherever else. She is not a New Yorker and is using the state as a stepping stone for power elsewhere. If you cannot see this, then same on your fanny.
Yeah but seeing the expression on Rudy's face when he loses would be worth having anyone else win, incuding Hillary!!!!!
Jeff: Believe me or not, you will rue the day if Hillary wins. You must really dislike Rudy. Well that doesn;t even begin to compare with the contempt I hold for hilarious Hillary.
If you think the next year will be interesting politics in New York with a Giuli-Hillary race, wait and see what the following year will be like if Giuliani becomes Senator!
Mark Green will be Mayor and will hope to win on his own dime in 2001. You know Rudy won't be able to keep his yap shut over that one!
If Mark Green gets the Dem nod (but count on a bruising Democratic primary) who do you think the Republican will be. How about Bill Bratton?
Hillary is a media creation. She has no experience governing. She would probably go on a 'listening' tour of the subway and be horrified to find out that the subway lines terminate in Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx. I picture her wandering around Stillwell Avenue with a subway map in one hand and a cellular phone in the other. That's right, I despise her and her husband, what a couple.
As for 2001, Green's obnoxious personality will not help him. I think fiscal conservative, moderate democrat Hevesi has a good shot at the democratic slot. The NYC republicans know that Rudy was the exception and will probably put up a nobody just to have a name on the ballot. I'm sure Hevesi's name will also appear as an independent on the ballot to allow republican voters, mostly in Queens and Staten Island to vote for him without having to pull a lever for a democrat. What do all you democrats out there think??
Don't rule out moderate City Council Speaker Peter Vallone (a great guy) who was able to stand up to Rudy's bullying tactics.
I could see him running for Mayor and winning.
As for "Hick" Hillary, she probably thinks that the New York Subway is a kind of deli sandwich!!
Doug aka BMTman
Why has no one mentioned Floyd Flake. He would make a very strong and credible candidate. He maight even jump parties and run as a repbulican.
Mark, good point. I had overlooked Flake. I seemed to recall reading somewhere that he may take a stab at running for Mayor on the Republican ticket. He certainly has been an instrumental force in turning Jamacia (and surrounding areas) around economicaly.
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen Floyd Flake on TV and am very much impressed with him. If the Republicans could get him interested, that would be a great thing.
He has the look of a winner, and, besides, the GOP can put its money where its mouth is and open their so-called big tent.
Personally, I think the reason the Democrats are putting all their eggs into the basket of a carpet bagger is because the home town boys like Mark Green and Peter Valone are such weasels. After Rudy the Republicans still have a few rising stars like Susan Molinari. And that's just in southern portion of the state.
The republicans squashed Lazio's candidacy and the democrats squashed that Westchester woman's campaign (her name escapes me). Sue Molinari is a lobbyist now, living in Virginia. She is understandibly no longer interested in politics. Vallone may run for mayor in 2001. All of a sudden he is this hero of the working class, what's with that? He talks like it's still 1950 when labor had real power. Someone should tell him we are now in the information age. Think of it, we can't really produce quality candidates in NYC because most of the talented people are smart enough to stay out of politics. A bright talented republican would rather be a successful businessman. And bright talented democrats do not exist!
How about teaming Rudy and Hillary up as Train
Operator and Conductor on the D train, and let them
do their campaigning over the PA system in between
station announcements and train delays? This would
be good for both of them. For Hillary, it was
destroy the belief of some that she would never use
a subway, and it would give Rudy a chance to be in
control. Between 59th and 125th, they could have a
debate over issues or answer questions posed by
customers. It would very quickly solve some gripes expressed by workers here of inadequate restroom facilities for TA crews.
Yeah, and it can give Hillary and Rudy chances to get even with each other. Instead of verbal barbs, Hillary can piss off Rudy by holding the doors open even though Rudy has a double green on the signal and there are no holding lights.
Rudy can get even by giving Hillary the "two buzzer" indication to hold the doors when it is not necessary. Or he can piss off the riders by dumping the brakes between stations!
Fun and games await the Senatorial contenders on the subway system.
Doug aka BMTman
12/05/99
I wish we wouldn't bring up THAT WOMAN's name for it scares me that I may have to leave New York and join the French Foreign Legion to escape her demonic ideas. Like a dummy Hillary Ramrod Clinton dons a Yankee cap and proclaims "New York,Here I come!". Now somebody hand her a Metrocard and see if she goes shopping thinking it's a credit card.
Bill Newkirk
I wish we wouldn't bring up THAT WOMAN's name for it scares me that I may have to leave New York and join the French Foreign Legion to escape her demonic ideas. Like a dummy Hillary Ramrod Clinton dons a Yankee cap and proclaims "New York,Here I come!". Now somebody hand her a Metrocard and see if she goes shopping thinking it's a credit card.
The only reason why Hillary wants to be a Senator is because its one step from the Presidency. Its bad enough that she was running things with her milktoast husband in the White House. If she ever gets elected to the Presidency, I'll move to Iraq! She makes me SICK! Sicker than her husband makes me!
She still has my vote over Rudy!!!!
Jeff: Oh you kid: Come on. Wake up. She is a disaster waiting to happen.
Well now Mr. BMT you have some idea exactly how I feel about that $$$$######.
Well now Mr. BMT you have some idea exactly how I feel about that $$$$######.
Yeah! The same way I feel. After 2 terms of Billy Boy, with an impeachment, I hope this country isn't stupid enough to elect Gore. I also hope that NYS is not stupid enough to elect his wife. With all that Billy Boy did for the Chinese, is it any wonder that the Chinese heavily contributed to his reelection campaign. Don't be surprised when you find out that the Chinese are doing the same thing with the Gore campaign. They probably are. As for what Clinton did for the Chinese, I'm not even talking about the nuclear technology theft. That occurred under every President starting with Carter. Clinton is responsible for allowing the export of technology enabling China (and North Korea, Iran and Iraq) to develop the same sophisticated missile guidance systems as ours. Also, look around your house. Look in the stores. Everything is made in China. Maybe you, or somebody can answer this question for me: As far as I can remember, the USA always had a "Two China" policy, even though Mainland China and Taiwan always had a "One China" policy and each claimed to be the legitimate government of China. When did the United States embrace the "One China" policy, and also recognize Beijing as its legitimate government? Was it when the UN kicked Taiwan out and took Mainland China in as a member of the UN?
Mr. BMT: When Nixon went to China in February, 1972, he signed the Shanghai Communique in which he recognized Taiwan as an integral park of China. Even today Nixon is the most popular American figure in China.
No he is not Fred, when I was in China in May 98 it was Michael Jordan and Bulls. Every teenage had a bulls or Michael Jordan T Shirt or hat. They love their basketball there. Nixon Who???
Bob: You're right. I meant among American politicians.
Mr. BMT: When Nixon went to China in February, 1972, he signed the Shanghai Communique in which he recognized Taiwan as an integral park of China. Even today Nixon is the most popular American figure in China.
I guess that action was the beginning of our country being sold out to the Communist Chinese. I never thought Nixon was a communist sympathizer. Our policy of containment regarding the Chinese Communists was better. We are allowing them to slowly take us over. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but the Chinese are a very patient people. It took them 20 years to slowly steal all of our nuclear secrets.
Well, for the record, besides the Watergate fiasco, Nixon got in double trouble with his most ardent supporters for meeting with the Chinese government. After all, Nixon was the guy most anti-Communist with his backing McCarthyism and the like.
So he became a BIG hypocrite for alot of folks when he returned from Red China besides being a crook.
Doug aka BMTman
src="http://www.wavplace.com/snds/nixon.wav"loop="in
finite">
Well, for the record, besides the Watergate fiasco, Nixon got in double trouble with his most ardent supporters for meeting with the Chinese government. After all, Nixon was the guy most anti-Communist with his backing McCarthyism and the like.
So he became a BIG hypocrite for alot of folks when he returned from Red China besides being a crook.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah! You just don't know about some people. Is Clinton any different? I think he sold out to the communists more than Nixon did.
But Susan Molinari ISN'T a Phoney? Give me a break!!! She gave up a promising political career to become a TV hack commentator.
She would never have had a career if it wasn't for her whining and complaining dad from the smellest borough in the city. The Molinari's are losers!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I must say you are consistant. Consistantly a Democrat - Consistantly wrong. Mark Green & Petie Vallone follow in the footsteps of other pandering political weasels like Dave Dinkins and Mario the Magnificent.
Today's Question: Which political party did the governor who closed the 3 big mental hospitals on Long Island, belong to?
Wanna know why Kendra Webdale is no longer with us? Wanna know why we have young ladies with their heads smashed open by bricks? Look no further than your socially conscious, politically correct Democratic Party and their irresponsible policies
Not consistantly. I have not VOTED exclusively Democrat or Republican over the last ten years.
Don't think you know someone strictly on how they say in their posts. You know what happens when you ASSume.
Besides, I occasionally play the devils advocate just to see who I can tweek at SubTalk. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Steve baby: I love you! Give them hell.
[Rudy has been a great mayor.
Show some real pride New Yorkers and send Hillary back to the White House or Arkansas or Yale, or wherever else. She is not a New Yorker and is using the state as a stepping stone for power elsewhere. If you cannot see this, then same on your fanny.]
Whatever I may think about her, I don't think Hillary is going to win this one. But my doubts about Giuliani as senator derive from different considerations--firstly, I hate losing him as mayor, and secondly, I'm not sure he's the senatorial type--he's a wonderfully strong executive whose bulldozer approach may not go over well in a consensus-based body where a 90-year-old from Tennessee has veto power over anything New York wants, and vice versa. That in spite of the fact that apart from his failings in the area of civil liberties Giuliani strikes me as representing the very best of today's Republican party, a hard-headed realist who's been willing again and again to take on entrenched special interests for the City's benefit, and is worlds apart from the religious right fringe issue/another tax cut for the rich types who currently control the national party (but may not for long if Bush is elected).
I'd much rather see Giuliani replace the disappointingly mediocre Governor Pataki in a position at which I think he'd excel--I can't think of anyone better able to wean New York State from self-defeating pork barrel politics.
Yes, a sane political voice at SubTalk! Josh, you have expressed some things that needed saying. Giuliani is not a favorite of mine on many counts but the Republican party needs someone of his caliber to counter-balance the "redneck/Sunbelt" lean that the National Party has been represented by in recent years.
As a matter of fact, my problem with the Molinari's -- father and daughter -- is that they just 'go-along-to-get-along' with their fellow Republicans rather than have the balls to fight for change within the party. For instance, I think Susan was a lame-o by not standing tall for what she believed in strongly -- woman's right to choose (abortion issue). Instead she copped out by leaving the political arena for a 'safe' job in media pundancy. My respect for her disappeared after that.
Doug aka BMTman
[As a matter of fact, my problem with the Molinari's -- father and daughter -- is that they just 'go-along-to-get-along' with their fellow Republicans rather than have the balls to fight for change within the party. For instance, I think Susan was a lame-o by not standing tall for what she believed in strongly -- woman's right to choose (abortion issue). Instead she copped out by leaving the political arena for a 'safe' job in media pundancy. My respect for her disappeared after that.]
Similarly, Bush went down in my estimation when he refused to disavow Buchanan, even though many Republicans were urging him to take a stand.
Remember the years when Nelson Rockefeller vetoed anti-abortion legislation year after year? I guess I'm not the first to wonder what happened to politicians with principles . . .
The President comes to NY and in a show of true political sportsmanship the mayor himself goes out to JFK to meet Mr. Clinton.
The Mayor greets the president at the foot of the stairway from AirForce One and says "Welcome to NY Mr. President." he then notices that the president has a baby pig under his arm. Still being the consumate politician, Rudy says, "That's a fine looking pig,you got there, Mr. President."
The President smiles and says, "Mr. Mayor, that's not just a pig, it's an Arkansas Razorback."
The Mayor smiles and says "Forgive me Mr. President, that's a swell looking Arkansas Razorback you got there."
The President smiles and says, "Yup, I got him for the first lady."
to which Rudy replies, "Excellent trade, Mr. president....."
Who says Rudy has no class?
LOL
Drum Roll!!! With Cymbals!!!!
Don't quit your day job.!!!! :)
I won't if Hillie don't.....
Way to go Steve. I love it.
It was James Buckley. It's hard to say if he was a true carpet bagger becuase he never moved to New York. he remained in the Connecticut during the six almost forgotten years he was a senator.
Does anyone remember who was governor between Rockafeller and Hugh Carey?
Malcolm Wilson, the man for whom the Tappan Zee Bridge has been recently commemorated.
Way to go!
"Rudy vs. Hillary" overshadows by a long margin the less interesting contest between the choir boy and the frat boy for President. Any New Yorker that hasn't taken sides yet is in a serious coma. Regardless, the future for public transit in New York (and elsewhere) is not assured. It's not a priority issue for either candidate.
OK folks, its time for SubTalk to vote for one of them. Please CLICK HERE to vote for either Rudy or Hillary.
Note: the poll has been on my site for a while now.
Jeff, I am not a resident of New York state and can't bring myself to make a decision on those two. Both are totally loathsome. Hillary is a carpetbagger and should be dismissed out of hand. But she is following New York rules, to New York's discredit. If Rudy was elevated to the Senate, would New York be in a position for a better mayor? (Rudy played the fool in the Brooklyn Museum flap). If the unions support Hillary, that might (just might) be positive for public transit. Has either of them taken a position on the Second Avenue subway?
12/08/99
Rudy hasn't officially announced his candidacy for the Senate yet , seems he was waiting for H*****y to annouce. Nobody is taking into consideration and I don't mean just SubTalk , that maybe Rudy isn't really running. What about Al D'Amato ? Maybe the Republicans will make him the candidate.
Bill Newkirk
Did anyone consider that despite what we have seen and heard over the past few months, that Hillary isn't running either? I am still betting that she won't, and Rudy won't and we will end up with Andrew (AARGH!) Cuomo or some other looser like him.
Just 2 day they announced that Chelsa will be filling in for her Mom as first lady at certain functions. Are the Clinton's sick or what!!
Another Cuomo? If you New Yorkers aren't convinced by now that Mario baby was just a verbose liberal windbag that help to ruin New York, then you haven't learned a damn thing.
That's one rumor that I was hearing, that Hillary would find some reason to drop out (she has plenty already) and the A.C. was waiting in the wings to "take" the nomination. I suppose his buddy Castro (Fidel, not Bernadette) will be his campaign manager.
Mark: Forget it!. Hillary is running and it is up to you New Yorkers to see that this carpetbagger elitist is sent back to Arkansas where she belongs and not to Washington D.C. The whole country is watching New York to see if they are a people of pride or will let any tin horn come in and represent them.
I'm still betting that for one reason or another, she will not be on the ballet in November, but if she is, I hope Rudy beats her 3 to 1!.
Mark: Forget it!. Hillary is running and it is up to you New Yorkers to see that this carpetbagger elitist is sent back to Arkansas where she belongs and not to Washington D.C. The whole country is watching New York to see if they are a people of pride or will let any tin horn come in and represent them.
Hillary has announced her candidacy. It was in the news. She is as fit to be a Senator as her husband was to be the President. Get them both the hell out of here!
I think that Hillie is in for the long haul. Not because she thinks she can win but I think she has her eye on all those un-spent campaign funds that do not have to be accounted for. Al (Sharpie) Sharpton has similarly found this simple way to milk the cash cow of NY Politics. We as new yorkers should see how cynically the Democratic party views the electorate of this state by offering up Hillie in the first place. let's repudiate these bums. (I already have by changing my party affilliation)
Well, having Rudy for Senator won't help much as he'll become a lame duck. He's not the type to work with other people so chances are his ideas will get shot down.
And Hillary should not be representing New Yorkers.
It's too bad there aren't any other real options to those two.
(I almost forgot Al "Grandpa" Lewis of the Green Party :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Granpa Al Lewis. How about Howard Stern for Governor!!!
Granpa Al Lewis. How about Howard Stern for Governor!!!
Howard Stern isn't fit to govern a toilet bowl.
Yeah, but he knows how to dish out Bulls--t! That makes him qualified to at LEAST govern a toilet bowl in my book!
Doug aka BMTman
He's more fit than Rudy.
How about Rosie O'Donnell for Mayor? She seems to know all about how to solve the city's homeless problems (Rosie of course spends all her off time ministering to the denisens of the Broadway-Lafayette station when she's not doing her TV show or dressed up like an elf for some ABC Christmas special)
When Rosie decides to cut back on her arduous schedule, she can do an occasional commercial. She would be perfect for an advertisement playing the role of BEFORE.
Hey! I resemble that remark:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Physically, perhaps, I don't know because I don't know what you look like. Spiritually and character wise, I read you as having it all over Rosie. She has no class and is a big mouth who brain never seems to be engaged before she puts her mouth in gear./ Have a great weekend.
Well, here's the picture, right here on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're bearded but from what I can tell you have an honest face. By the way, I will be retiring from my teaching job in a year, and I hope to partake in some of those trip you railfans take. Have a great day.
How dare that Pumkin Headed Dolt presume to suggest that she knows what is best for the homeless. On many an early-early morning, I'll walk 32nd street from 7th Ave to 6th Ave and see every doorway clogged with sleeping homeless people. Then I'll descend into the PATH/NYCT station at 34th & 6th to find many many more sleeping in every corridor. Are these the rights she seeks to defend? What about my right to walk one block, unmolested. Does this city have no right to protect its image? These are disfunctional people that need to be forced into some form of treatment and/or work for shelter program. The mayor is on the right track on this issue and its unfortunate that we can't relocate some of these unfortunates to Westchester so Ms. O'Donnell can see them on a daily basis.
And Ba Ba Boowie as Lt. Governor!!! LOL!!
Now were talking. Stuttering John for mayor!!!!!!!!!
3TM
Main St-Flushing. Transfer:Q14,Q16,Q20a,Q20b,Q44, Connection: Q25,Q34,Q65,Q66,QBx1. Little Neck Pkwy bound G. 150St is next. Transfer to the Q15. Stand Clear.........
I want Jackie "the Jokeman" Martling for City Council President!
:-)
Fred Eric Norris for borough president............
3TM
Crocheron Av. Transfer to the 7 line on the lower level. The Q28 down on the street level. The next station will be Utopia Pkwy. Transfer to the Q12. Stand clear.........
No way!!!! Robin Quivers for Lt Gov!!!!
NO WAY!
I have plans to make her my peronsal conqubine!!! (Selfish me ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Good show Steve. Now if another one million New Yorkers get the message, then we will be finally rid of the Clintons. Thank God if it happens.
Just 2 day they announced that Chelsa will be filling in for her Mom as first lady at certain functions. Are the Clinton's sick or what!!
The Clintons are sick--in the head!
I have read a great deal of messages either in praise of, or in denunciation, of Mayor Rudy, and though people who live in New York City have a better feel of things than non-New York city residents in such matters, sometimes an "outsider" can see a thing or two as well.
Simply put, if you think Hillary Clinton is going to be an improvement for the New York Subway System or for the state in general, I know a bridge that I can see you for a song. To wit, Hilarious Hillary is a pathalogical liar like her hubby, an elitist of the most disgusting order, and one who really holds middle class wage earners in contempt.
She would probably never ride the subway as it would be beneath her, a comfortable limo being more in style for that snob.
I have noticed over the years, however, of a curious malady that seems
to effect New Yorkers, that being their penchant for showing a lack of
pride in their state by accepting with open arms political "carpetbaggers" over their native sons. Bobby Kennedy (who I admired) is one, Buckley (whose first name I can't remember) is another. New Yorkers rejected native sons Ken Keating and Charles Goodell, both decent Senators, for these two people, neither of which was an effective Senator for New York. New Yorkers might be making that mistake for the third time.
I can tell you this: That sort of crap doesn't happen here in California. Pierre Sallinger tried to carpetbag his way into our state and even defeated Alan Cranston in the Demo Senate Primary in 1964. That resulted in voters deserting the Demos in droves to put George Murphy in the Senate. Two years later, Texan Lloyd Hand tried the same garbage in the Demo Gubernatorial primary, and voters rejectred him in total. New York is a great state, Rudy has been a great mayor.
Show some real pride New Yorkers and send Hillary back to the White House or Arkansas or Yale, or wherever else. She is not a New Yorker and is using the state as a stepping stone for power elsewhere. If you cannot see this, then shame on your fanny.
SOURCE: official AFC Bulletin. They go on sale at 7am on 12/13/1999.
As usual I have grouped stations to save space
28--1.9,N,R
34-B,D,F,Q,N,R
Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge-4,5,6,J,M,Z
14-4,5,6,,L,N,R
Astor Pl-6
8th- N,R
Spring-C,E,6
23-1,9,F,6
Prince-N,R
West 4- A,B,C,D,E,F,Q
33-6
5th Ave/42-B,D,F,Q,7
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
59th/Columbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
57-N,R
50-1,9,C,E
49-N,R
51/Lex-E,F,6
59/Lex-N,R,4,5,6
63/Lex-B,Q
68-6
77-6
66-1,9
72-1,2,3,9
86-B,C,1,9,4,5,6
81-B,,C
79-1,9
96-1,2,3,9
125-2,3,4,5,6
Boro Hall-2,3,4,5,M,N,R
Jay-A,C,F
Flatbush-2
DeKalb- L ONLY
86 BROOKLYN-R
7th Ave BROOKLYN-F
Atlantic/Pacific-2,3,4,5,B,M,N,R
15h/Prospect Park-F
Queens(Boro)Plaza- E,F,G,R,N,7
67av- G,R
Parsons- F
71/Continental-E,F,G,R
Union Turnpike- E,F
179-F
Steinway-G,R
63 Dr- G,R
82nd- 7
Main St-7
Jamaica Center- E,J,Z
Looks like a BIG run, based on the quantity of stations that will have them.
BTW, I have two examples from Chicago "Mints for people who ride in a metal box". It'll be interesting to see if the same copy is on the NYC version.
Mr t__:^)
When I see one, I'll post a description. When the MetroCard people (AFC- Automated Fare Control) send us a bulletin for a promo card, they do not include a picture, just the list of stations.
At this rate, the list is fine. Much appreciated.
Thanks,
JOe
SOURCE: official AFC Bulletin. They go on sale at 7am on 12/13/1999.
As usual I have grouped stations to save space
28--1.9,N,R
34-B,D,F,Q,N,R
Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge-4,5,6,J,M,Z
14-4,5,6,,L,N,R
Astor Pl-6
8th- N,R
Spring-C,E,6
23-1,9,F,6
Prince-N,R
West 4- A,B,C,D,E,F,Q
33-6
5th Ave/42-B,D,F,Q,7
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
59th/Columbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
57-N,R
50-1,9,C,E
49-N,R
51/Lex-E,F,6
59/Lex-N,R,4,5,6
63/Lex-B,Q
68-6
77-6
66-1,9
72-1,2,3,9
86-B,C,1,9,4,5,6
81-B,,C
79-1,9
96-1,2,3,9
125-2,3,4,5,6
Boro Hall-2,3,4,5,M,N,R
Jay-A,C,F
Flatbush-2
DeKalb- L ONLY
86 BROOKLYN-R
7th Ave BROOKLYN-F
Atlantic/Pacific-2,3,4,5,B,M,N,R
15h/Propsect Park-F
Queens(Boro)Plaza- E,F,G,R,N,7
67av- G,R
Parsons- F
71/Continental-E,F,G,R
Union Turnpike- E,F
179-F
Steinway-G,R
63 Dr- G,R
82nd- 7
Main St-7
Jamaica Center- E,J,Z
12/04/99
Subway Buff,
A SubTalker from Chicago sent me an Altoids CTA promo farecard. This advertisement was on the front of the card , while the back retained the instructions etc. as do the basic farecards.
Bill Newkirk
I was in Chicago last month and got an Altoids Mint card
"Breath mints for people who ride around in metal boxes."
Enjoy both happy holidays
Joe
Got the CTA card a while back. A real gem!
Thanks to the poster on the card update.
Joe C
Question: Will these be in vending machines or at the windows?
Also, what $ denomination?
Joe C
There is still two more years of "Millennial Journeys" yet to be released "by Dec 31", so I would expect the MVMs to carry the "logo" version of them.
Mr t__:^)
I've found the "horse" card, 13th century, recently. No logo though.
Joe C
Yeah, NYCT is behind schedule with releasing the "Millenianal Journey" series of MetroCards as they are going to have to "pick up the pace" if indeed all 9 are to be available by the end of this century.
Doug aka BMTman
Buy them at the booth at the stations listed. Since the cards are zero value when we pick up a card to place in the computer, the amount on the card (ort type of card) is based on customer request. If you want an unlimited card, it becomes an unlimited card. If you want $15, it becomes a $15 (plus $1.50 bonus)card.
The machines are selling the Millenial Journey Card. I will post list of upcoming MVM locations when I see official bulletins. See MVM World web site for a liost of current and planned locations (December 1999) .
Adapted from Official Info:
More unusal MetroCards
AutoGate MetroCard Male= Light Blue background for picture, female=purple background
All of these have the letter R
MABSTOA -uses the letter E. Colors: male=green, female=orange (NOT good fror NYCT subway or NYCT bus)
Temporary Reduced Fare MetroCard. White with purple letters. R
L I Bus Male- L on light blue background
female- L on red background
Senior uses : L
S
(L over S). This is only good for LI Bus discount. Not good for subway.
I do not have SIR(TOA), MetroNorth or lIRR info other than the official info that they are not good for free subway/bus rides.
SIR is governed by the same rules as the rest of the NYCT system.
-Hank
Hank, not quite! My pass is a U pass (Universal)- but I have to pay on SIR trains (and LIRR and Metro North, and LI Bus, and Express bus and the private lines).
While not sure, employees of SIR(TOA) must have some letter or xcolor on their pass that is different.
[I have to pay on ... and the private lines]
That's the fault of the "suits" at the TA, they won't let our drivers ride for free, so we returned the favor !
P.S. TA staff, particularily mngt., trys to ride our buses for free all the time. So do the guards at Riker's Island.
Mr t__:^)
Recently i walked by the 239th street yard,i noticed that the R-110 train was gone.Where did the train go? will be in service with the R-142 and does anyone have any pictures of the R-142 what is the big secret about this new set of trains?
Check all the chop shops in the South Bronx.
Doesn't the TA have all of their subway cars in the Bronx equipped with Lojack?
Doesn't the TA have all of their subway cars in the Bronx equipped with Lojack?
If they do, to their surprise, some of the cars may turn up in Hong Kong.
Yeah, I hear they're running a string of R9's in their subway system that they stole from East NY 20 years or so ago. LOL
Yeah, I hear they're running a string of R9's in their subway system that they stole from East NY 20 years or so ago. LOL
If Castro ever builds a subway in Havana, he would probably run stolen R-16's that his people snatched from the scrap track.
Could someone please explain to me how someone 'steals' a sub car? It's not like something that one could easily fit in their pocket.
Could someone please explain to me how someone 'steals' a sub car? It's not like something that one could easily fit in their pocket.
How does one steal a car or an airplane? You can't fit those in your pocket either. There must be a physical track connection from the subway system to Amtrak. I'm sure, once on Amtrak, you could make your way to Mexico and then Central America. All you need is a Diesel locomotive. When you get to Argentina, put the damn thing on a freighter and send it to Pyongyang. The North Koreans will parade it in the streets.
So how long before we can expect to see retired REDbirds in China? They're already painted for the occasion.
So how long before we can expect to see retired REDbirds in China? They're already painted for the occasion.
The Chinese think that our Redbirds are ICBM's and they're trying to mount our stolen nuclear warheads on them. They are still trying to get the Redbirds to stand up vertically, with no success. They are sending more spies over to the TA to learn how to do that.
Roumour has it the NYC Transit System was being considered for launching ICBMs in the late '70s. With all the deferred maintenance abd breakdowns taking ther toll, no one could keep track of where the missles would be, so on one would be able to find them and neutralize them!
--Mark
Roumour has it the NYC Transit System was being considered for launching ICBMs in the late '70s. With all the deferred maintenance abd breakdowns taking ther toll, no one could keep track of where the missles would be, so on one would be able to find them and neutralize them!
--Mark
If it was in 1979, they should have been fired at Khomeini.
Remember the bungled rescue mission? 'Nuff said.
As for the R-16s, if there are any in Cuba, they can keep 'em. Hey, Jerry Stiller suggested the hijackers in the original Pelham were going to "fly the train to Cuba" as part of their getaway.
That's more like ROF (rolling on the floor).
12/04/99
You mean that detective TV show from the 70's ?
Bill Newkirk
You mean that detective TV show from the 70's ?
No, that was Kojak, not LoJack.
12/05/99
No that was Kojak , not LoJack.
No wonder it was difficult steering my car with those lollipops wrapped around the steering wheel!
Bill Newkirk
Or look for a subway car up on cinder blocks, kinda like a few M-1s were in the sunnyside yard last year.
And if you hear any cars going around with stereos that sound like a subway PA and go "ding dong" every now and then, chances are, it's a hot system ;)
On a serious note, I was just thinking that the R110A might be down in Brooklyn right now, at Coney Island Yard. If the R142s are here, and they're supposed to be, this sounds like a good time for shop personnel to take comparative notes between the existing R110A equipment and the newer R142 equipment. Things should get particularly interesting when the Kawasaki R142As get here. A real comparative analysis could take place between the old and new. Kawasaki R142As to 239th St Yard? I wonder.... E180th St Yard is supposed to handle the new fleet, but a poster here sometime ago mentioned that the Kawasaki Cars would show up at 239th St. This is something to watch for.
I won't judge the R142 until it's had time on the road. If someone can produce Mean Distance Between Failures for these cars after a certain time on the road, then I'll make a judgment call.
I imagine that the R110A will be rebuilt to R142 Specs. They don't have to go out for good just because they're experimental. Hey, Kawasaki could remanufacture them or be done in house by TA personnel!!!!
Anyone been up to the Yonkers (Kawasaki) plant yet?
-Stef
They have been keeping the 110A in the barn when not in use. I don't know why they are doing this, but when it was not in the yard it was in the barn.
The R110A are most likely at the museum in Kingston, NY. Did the union something to with it?
For those interested, I just emailed Dave Pirrmann a large batch of OLD construction pictures and track location maps of the whole Bklyn grade crossing elimination. If we ask him real nice, he may post them all. The maps also show where the tracks once ran in the streets, in the current street system.
I would really like to see the route of the Manhattan Beach division on a current street map. Thank you Bob, and thank you David if it's possible to put that up. paul
The photos appear to be scanned from a book- I can't simply go ahead and post them without permission from the copyright holder. Bob, can you give us the name/author/publisher of the source? People could then look it up on their own.
The title of the book is "Reports of the Brooklyn Grade Crossing Elimination Commission 1918".
Since the Commission is clearly a defunct entity, I dont see a copyright problem. Also, the purpose of the report was to disseminate to the public, information on an important public works project that involved huge amounts of tax payers money. Its pretty unlikely that most people interested in this subject will find this book available elsewhere.
Bob
I agree. I have seen the Grade Crossing Elimination report of 1918 at the Brooklyn Public Library. For anyone interested in early Kings County railroad history, the BPL has an extensive collection at the Grand Army Plaza branch.
Doug aka BMTman
Extensive? What exactly do they have there dealing with Kings County Railroads. Thought I had seen most of their stuff. Could I be missing something?
Well, for starters the 'Brooklyn Collection' has bound volumes of BRT newsletters and notices from the turn of the century and up till BMT reorganization.
Then there are most if not all of Vincent Seyfried's LIRR History volumes; Grade Elimination Commission legal documents (mostly in legalese and not railfan friendly reading); Philip (Copp) Coppola's draft of his comprehensive history/analysis on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle; some of the older (and current) Joe Cunningham, Brian Cudahy, James Greller and Ed Watson subway/trolley books.
There may be some other items I overlooked, but that's the bulk of their best railfan material. Not a shabby collection at all, I'd say.
Doug aka BMTman
The material from the Grade Crossing Elimination Report has started to become posted. More pictures and complete maps will be added shortly, and captions will be added. Right now, you can see the Bayridge line at 4th Av, the BRT subway is in the lower level of the trough in the cross bridge. The Sea Beach "mystery" tunnel can be clearly seen at left, the old Bay Ridge Pkwy (now Belt Pkwy entrance ramp)is up on the right. The URL's are
www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/images/br1.jpg
www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/images/br1a.jpg
More pix etc of the Bay Ridge Line etc. are now at
www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/raw/
Wow..... Those pictures are really great.
Many thanks Bob for putting them up.
And thanks to Paul Matus.
Not shabby at all, I agree. I've seen or possess most of those items with the exception of the BRT newsletters and notices. I'll have to look into those the next time I'm at the museum. What exactly are these newsletters and notices?
OOOpps! I forgot to mention that BPL also has one or two issues of Paul Matus' 'Third Rail' and/or 'Silver Leaf' publications.
Doug aka BMTman
Alan, I believe the BRT items are similar to the NYCT's 'In Transit' newsletter that is essentially the employees newspaper.
What I saw of them was historically interesting, but not to the extent that a railfan who is enamored with equipment would necessarily appreciate.
Doug aka BMTman
If the commission was a public agency, there was no copywrite laws. Also if no one renewed it after 50 years (1968) it is public domaine(if it was copywrited)
If there are any upcoming railfan trips? I am looking to meet some of you guys that post on SubTalk. Please let me know any info.....
3TM
89St. Connection to the Q19B. The next station will be Junction Blvd. Connection to the Q72 down on the lower level. Stand Clear....
I've seldom hear of any fan trips in the winter.
Illinois Railroad(way?) Museum (IRM) is noted for its "Snowflake Special" fantrips operated in the cooler months that Illinois experiences.
I'm new here, so you've probably answered these questions a couple of times, but I'll still ask:
1. Why has MNRR abandoned the Putnam line? It would seem to be a good way to encourage central Westchester customers (Elmsford, Ardsley) to commute by mass transit.
2. Why has SIRTOA abandoned the North Shore line? I know that the Howland Hook connection isn't happening right now (if ever), but it seems as if service to St. George, from Port Richmond and beyond would still be feasible.
(1) Metro North did not abandon the Putnam Divison - the NY Central RR did, in 1958. While parts of it may still be used for freight, it has not seen a passenger train in 4l years, which is why the old Polo Grounds shuttle closed in 1958 as well (remember the field trip on 12/19!) Also, the "Put" never had third rail, so its customers had to change at High Bridge for MU trains to GCT, or get off at the Sedgwick terminal and switch to the IRT.
(2) I am not a Staten Island expert, but I do know that the North Shore line goes along the waterfront and is not always close to major residential clusters along the northern side of the island. Again, SIRTOA did not abandon this route; the old SI Rapid Transit, owned by the Baltimore and Ohio, abandoned it in 1953 as part of a deal with NY City (augmented bus service on Richmond Terrace would be provided in lieu of SIRT trains). "Abandoned", in this context, refers to passenger trains; freight service continued until recent years.
A section of the Put did have third rail from Sedgewick Avenue to Van Cortlandt Junction from 1926 to 1943. This was used by trains of the three mile long Getty Square Branch. Although the branch was served by electric mu trains they did not run into Grand Central but terminated at Sedgewick Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No wonder the "Put" was abandoned. It actually had third rail, yet did the geniuses at the New York Central ever once actually think of operating those Getty Square trains (and other "Put" trains) into Grand Central. Whose ridiculous idea at the Central was it to terminate the "Put" at Sedgewick Avenue?
Not to go over old ground, but I suggested reactivating the Put as far north as Tuckahoe Road, and putting in parking garages off the exist from the Cross County, Saw Mill, Thruway and Sprain for Park-n-ride. A direct run to GCT from two or three stations might work. You'd have to put in a flying junction at the Hudson, however, to no screw up Hudson line service.
[Not to go over old ground, but I suggested reactivating the Put as far north as Tuckahoe Road, and putting in parking garages off the exist from the Cross County, Saw Mill, Thruway and Sprain for
Park-n-ride. A direct run to GCT from two or three stations might work. You'd have to put in a flying junction at the Hudson, however, to no screw up Hudson line service.]
Probably a workable idea ... assuming, of course, that the right of way is still intact. Some parts of the r-o-w farther north in Westchester have been converted for use as a recreational trail. I don't know what the state of the r-o-w is like in the lower portions of the county.
There is really nothing left of the old Putnam. I remember taking it to camp in Mahopac in 54. We met a Lower level in Grand Central, took a local to University Hts, and took a connecting train from there, it was pulled by a old RTS diesal
"....it was pulled by a old RTS diesal."
It was pulled by a bus which wasn't built for another 23 years? Wow, if it was pulled by any bus, it had to be one from the future!
The RTS Diesal was built in the late 40s early 50s, I think it was by Alco. I have to find a early diesal book. It was the equivelent of the EMD GP 7. If you want to know about railroads, learn the earlier equipment that was used.
Exactly how far upstate does the Putnam line go?
Putnam County?
It ended around a place called Golden's Bridge. The line is cut in several places in Westchester County, by buildings placed inconveniently on the road bed. There's a good map of it in Arcara's book. The line was supposed to go to Montreal.
Did it go to Putnam County or was there some other source for the name?
I think Golden's Bridge is in lower Orange Co. I'd have to dig out Arcara's book to find out how it got its name. I do remember reading that it was supposed to go all the way to Montreal. Probably supposed to compete in some way with the Old & Weary.
Orange County is on the west side of the river! The Put ended at Putnam Junction in Brewster. Also, to correct an earlier post, the last run was on 29 May 1958, not 1959. The Put was originally part of a scheme to connect Boston to western NY and Pennsylvania; it represented the branch line to NYC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It connected to the Harlem line North of Brewster. It was called the Putnam because it ended in Putnam County. Some trains did go further north the Brewster I thing Goldens Bridge is in Northern Westchester on the Harlem Div. Near the Clinton s New house
Funny you should mention that the line ended in Brewster. If you remember the TV show "That Girl" with Marlo Thomas (What a crush I had on her) the show supposedly took place in Brewster and the closing credits showed track from a rear rail-fan window or open platform. Anyone know, was that the Putnam Line or another or did Hollywood pull another switch?
My guess is that Hollywood pulled another switch, since there was no passenger service on that line by the time of the filming (and limited freight service as well).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it was done, it probably was done on the Harlem, remember at that time you had to switch at White Plains or take a diesal train North of No White Plains
The southern part of the line is also supposed to be turned into a bike/recreation trail, to form a continuous route through Westchester. Not sure if this has started.
I grew up in a subdivision in Yorktown Heights right next to the Putnam right of way. I always hoped someone could reactivate it as a rail line -- impossible, of course ... even construction of the trail encountered NIMBY opposition.
<< Whose ridiculous idea at the Central was it to terminate the "Put" at Sedgewick Avenue? >>
The line that became the Putnam Division was incorporated as the New York and Boston railroad in 1869. It was leased to the New York Central and Hudson River RR in 1894 and merged with therailroad in 1913. The last passenger train operated on May 29, 1959.
The Put was never electrified (except for between Getty Square Sedgwick) and and neither steam nor diesels could operate into GCT. Changing engines at High Bridge for a run to GCT was not considered because a second crew would have been necessary and the Central didn't want to pay a second crew for the seven mile run (the unions objected to interdivisional crew assignments). The Central also claimed GCT was at full capacity and no more trains could be run into the station.
What about dual-power locos? The NYC bought 35 dual-power engines in 1930 and used them in the electrified-zone switching service (I think these were DES-2s and -3s)until the late 1940s. The NH bought FL9s in 1956, which ran straight into GCT. But the NYC said the switching engines weren't suitable for road power and it was too expensive to design a dual-power road loco, given that the Put would have been the only division that would have used it...I guess passengers didn't mind engine changes at Harmon! Ocassionally the dual-power locos were used for passenger service. I have a picture of 543 in service pulling out of Oscawana, NY with two MUs as trailers.
Also the Putnam never ran more then 3-4 trains a day in either direction, and there was always cross platform interchange with a Hudson Div at Highbridge and University Hts Stations. Sedgewick Ave was a connection to the Subway/(L Actually at the time)
Where, relative to what you can see today (9th Ave El remnents of Sedgwick Ave station under the Major Deegan Expwy) and the Metro-North tracks, did the Put terminate? Maybe this explains part of a larget concrete structure I saw in the area of the Sedgwick Ave IRT station a week ago.
In addition, I think you can still see remains of the Put along the Saw Mill River Pkwy ... sometimes you can see a roadbed, station canopy structures and remains of overpasses.
One other question, now that I think of it ... if you've ever traveled the Thruway north of Harriman, just after you come down a long hill, the Thruway runs at the base of a mountain. If you look to the left, you can see what was an old RR ROW. It appears this came off the current MNRR Port Jervis line. WHat RR used to run along this ROW and when was it abandoned?
--Mark
I think thats the same ROW that I saw from I-80 right before the
Deleware Water Gap. At the DWG location there is a one track ROW and what seems like an abandoned station of some sort. If you trace the ROW on a map. Its not on a map but use your imagination, it would lead up to Port Jervis.
Mark: After the Put was cut back from Manhattan it terminated at a set of platforms that ended right on the north side of the westbound 9 Avenue El platform. There was a joint entrance to the NYC and the IRT up on Sedgewick Avenue.
The ROW that you saw at Harriman is the former Erie RR Mainline. In April of 1984 trains were rerouted to the Graham Line between Newburgh Junction which was just south of Harriman to Otisville where they rejoined the mainline. Most of the former mainline was I believed abandoned. The Graham Line is now know as the Southern Tier Line and even though it was owned by Conrail,NJ Transit was the timetable authority for movements over this line.This may have changed with the Conrail breakup.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Mark: After the Put was cut back from Manhattan it terminated at a set of platforms that ended right on the north side of the westbound 9 Avenue El platform. There was a joint entrance to the NYC and the IRT up on Sedgewick Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, both the PUT and the Polo Grounds Shuttle were abandoned in 1958. Did the closing of one have anything to do with the closing of the other?
BMT: You raise a good point. The last train on the lower Put ran on May 29,1958 and the Polo Grounds Shuttle quit on two weeks later on June 15. I would think that after the Ninth Avenue El was closed below 155 Street on June 11,1940 there would have been little reason for any Putnam passenger to connect to the IRT although a few intrepid souls may have taken the shuttle to 155 Street and taken advantage of the free transfer to the IND. What probably had a more damning influence on the shuttle was the departure of the Giants from the Polo Grounds. That combined with the closurw of passenger service on the Put eliminated any reason for keeping the line. Toward the end the shuttle ran on a 30 minute headway with 15 minute rush hour service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Remember the Mets and Jets (TITANS) played at the Polo Grounds until Shea Opened. Also to Larry R Bird, Didn t the old NY O & W come off the West Shore at Harriman amnd go west from there also?
If I recall correctly the baseball Giants left NY after the 1957 season and the Mets did not begin until 1962. I'm not sure about the Titans though.
The O&W branched of from the NYC West Shore Line north of Cornwall and ran more or less west toward Middletown. A short section os still in use at Middletown as is the station itself.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The O&W branched of from the NYC West Shore Line north of Cornwall and ran more or less
west toward Middletown. A short section os still in use at Middletown as is the station itself. ]
The station is "used" to house several businesses (a barber shop and a real estate office, I think) and has a plaque commemorating the O&W.
But I thought there were no trains actually running there. If there are, where do they come from and where do they go to? I have wondered about this, since the RR crossing gates appear to be in good condition, as if they are indeed still in use.
The line extends south from MP 74 on the ex-Conrail Southern Tier Line through the old O & W Station in Middletown to a junction with the Middletown and New Jersey at about East Main Street. I drove right over the tracks last week and noticed how shinny the rails were. Maybe Lou from Middletown knows how often trains run over this line. It is now called the Crawford Industrial Track.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Freights run on it several times a week...I don't know if theres a schedule....Mostly deliveries for the Lumber company that is on the line and few small industries that are located in the old O&W shop buildings..so it might be on an 'as need' basis. One of the ironies of the connection to the Graham Line is that way back in the '50's the city fathers wanted to remove the Erie tracks from the middle of downtown, so the proposal had been made to construct a connection like there is now, and have the Erie and O&W share the station. Of course when Conrail closed the main between Howells and Harriman and put everything on the Graham line, it all became moot...
The Titans were a original AFL Team so they started in 60 or 61. I remember as a kid taking the O&W from the Old West Shore Term in Weehawken, taking the ferry from W 42nd and 12th Ave. They ran these trains to the Catskills during the Summer as far as Roscoe in Sullivan County. The train left in the AM and ran non stop along the West Shore div, and branched off somewhere near West Point to it s own track. The Diesals were their own. Probably F3s, they used to scrounge up all the old left over Pre War cars from every line in the Metro since they did not have many cars of their own. Mostly Erie, Lackawana and NYC Cars, with rattan seats no air of course. It was a long trip but fun. No dineing car, but vendors used to come on at many stations and sell sandwichs, soda etc. Remember this was the early to mid 50s
Am EXCELLENT book on the O&W in Middletown has been put out by the O&W NHRS chapter, you should be able to get a copy from the RAILFAN book service (they still carried it last time I looked...) You probaby got your 'snack' from the restaurant in the Middletown O&W station...
BMT: You raise a good point. The last train on the lower Put ran on May 29,1958 and the Polo Grounds Shuttle quit on two weeks later on June 15. I would think that after the Ninth Avenue El was closed below 155 Street on June 11,1940 there would have been little reason for any Putnam passenger to connect to the IRT although a few intrepid souls may have taken the shuttle to 155 Street and taken advantage of the free transfer to the IND. What probably had a more damning influence on the shuttle was the departure of the Giants from the Polo Grounds. That combined with the closurw of passenger service on the Put eliminated any reason for keeping the line. Toward the end the shuttle ran on a 30 minute headway with 15 minute rush hour service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know why the Giants leaving would have much to do with it. I don't imagine that many people used the shuttle to go to the games. I would imagine that most people would be taking the mainline D-Train rather than the shuttle. Anyone coming from the Jerome Ave. Line could have just as easily gotten the D at 161st St., as they could have gotten the shuttle at 167th St. The Jerome-Anderson and Sedgewick Ave. stations are not that far from 161st St. station either. Thinking from a practical point of view (not as a railfan), I would think that, after closing the 9th Ave. El below 155th St., the Polo Grounds Shuttle served no useful purpose outside of being a transfer point to the Put. It gave Put riders access to rapid transit to get them to Manhattan.
Thirty minute headways with 15 in rush hour would have been enough reason to close the shuttle. Except for transferring from the Put, anyone already on the Jerome Ave. Line would have been much better off going for the D-Train to get to 155th St.
One other question:
When did the free transfer from the D to the 4 go into effect? Was it in 1940, after unification, or was it in 1958 when they closed the shuttle? If it was in 1958, that would have been the primary reason to abandon the shuttle.
I remember the transfer being around between the D/4 at Yankee Stadium prior to 1955, when I used to go from one Aunt to another, because the bus took to long. The only time they had problems with iyt was on ball game days. There they dated and time the transfer which you had to get from a clerk, and they only gave 1 hour, and handed to another clerk on the other end. The other paper transfers I remember were at Franklin between the IND/Franklin Shuttle. Rockaway Pkway to the B42 Bus. Myrtle/Jay between L and IND, I think there was some others, I can not remember. Can anyone else remember?
I forgot the 3rd Ave L to the 7 Line at 14th and BMT at 14th St
I remember the transfer being around between the D/4 at Yankee Stadium prior to 1955, when I used to go from one Aunt to another, because the bus took to long. The only time they had problems with iyt was on ball game days. There they dated and time the transfer which you had to get from a clerk, and they only gave 1 hour, and handed to another clerk on the other end. The other paper transfers I remember were at Franklin between the IND/Franklin Shuttle. Rockaway Pkway to the B42 Bus. Myrtle/Jay between L and IND, I think there was some others, I can not remember. Can anyone else remember?
Thanks for the info about the D and 4 at 161. With the free transfer in place prior to 1958, the only reason I could see in keeping the Polo Grounds Shuttle running was due to the transfer point between the Put and rapid transit. The free transfer between the D and 4 at 161st St. made the Polo Grounds Shuttle, otherwise useless. I wish I had a chance to ride the Polo Grounds Shuttle. I was 4 years old when it ceased operation, but didn't even know that it existed until I was a teenager.
I was in NYC until I was 16 and never rode the 155th Shuttle. Oh by the way there was a paper transfer from the 155 St Concourse Line Station to the shuttle. I remember they ran 1 2 car train back and forth.
I think you meant between the J and ACF. Also the B35 between the B at 9Av and the F at Church. Also the B24 from Marcy to its terminal point...........
3TM.
108St. Transfer to the Q48 to LGA. The next station will be Shea Stadium. Stand Clear please..........
I remember the Rockaway Parkway B42 bus driving right into the BMT station so that a paper transfer wasn't needed. There were big gates so that you couldn't walk into the station (easily) through the bus turn around. This recollection is from the mid 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
The gates were not there prior to 58, I remember getting a transfer on the way out and it was good only on the B42. Maybe they put the gates in later. I understand now more then one route goes into the station.
No, the B6 and B82 still use the loop outside of fare controls.
The gates were not there prior to 58, I remember getting a transfer on the way out and it was good only on the B42. Maybe they put the gates in later. I understand now more then one route goes into the station.
The Rockaway Parkway station was renovated in the early 60's. That's provably when the gates went in. I also remember the bus at the station. On the platform, you could walk right from the train to the bus.
How about between the Bx55 and the IRT at 149th Street
from the time the 3rd Ave. El was eliminated until the
MetroCard transfers began.
How about between the Bx55 and the IRT at 149th Street
from the time the 3rd Ave. El was eliminated until the
MetroCard transfers began.
Didn't they also have one at Gunhill Rd?
"Didn't they also have one at Gunhill Rd?"
Until the Bx55 was cut back to Gun Hill Road and Webster Avenue.
When did the free transfer from the D to the 4 go into effect? Was it in 1940, after unification, or was it in 1958 when they closed the shuttle? If it was in 1958, that would have been the primary
reason to abandon the shuttle.
June 12th, 1940 sometime in the early morning. After the 9th Ave EL made its last run uptown and terminated at 155th St at about 12:08am, the 155th El station was closed for about 1 1/2 hours to prepare the station for its new service pattern; the "polo grounds" shuttle. Also, free transfers to the D at 155th St and at 161st St began.
--Mark
When did the free transfer from the D to the 4 go into effect? Was it in 1940, after unification, or was it in 1958 when they closed the shuttle? If it was in 1958, that would have been the primary
reason to abandon the shuttle.
June 12th, 1940 sometime in the early morning. After the 9th Ave EL made its last run uptown and terminated at 155th St at about 12:08am, the 155th El station was closed for about 1 1/2 hours to prepare the station for its new service pattern; the "polo grounds" shuttle. Also, free transfers to the D at 155th St and at 161st St began.
--Mark
Thanks for the info.
12/08/99
BMT Lines,
Yes! I have an abandonment poster for the Polo grounds shuttle that states those two reasons and the departure of the NY Giants.
Bill Newkirk
BMT Lines,
Yes! I have an abandonment poster for the Polo grounds shuttle that states those two reasons and the departure of the NY Giants.
Bill Newkirk
Interersting. I'm not about to argue with documentary evidence, but why would anyone have used the PG Shuttle to go to Giants games when the D-Train would have been more convenient, plus there was a free transfer between D and 4 Trains at 161 St. at least as far back as 1955, as indicated by another SubTalk poster who used the paper transfers in 1955. The TA has always used 2 excuses to tear down els:
1. Lack of ridership
2. Tearing down the el will enable revitalization of the neighborhood
If they closed the PG Shuttle because the Giants left, wasn't that a mistake? After all, the Mets used the Polo Grounds for 2 years until Shea opened.
Yeah but at the time nobody had any idea there would be a Mets. It was a few years down the road. And although I really don't know the answer to your 1rst question (I'm just guessing) I'm sure the transfer from the IRT to the shuttle (el to el) was easier than going from el to underground.
Yeah but at the time nobody had any idea there would be a Mets. It was a few years down the road.
Wasn't the same mistake made jumping the gun in demolishing the 2nd Ave. El? don't hold your breath waiting for the subway replacement!
The Shuttle joined the Jerome just south of 167th St Station, then crossed over to the southbound tracks North of the station, and reversed itself. A couple reasons for the closure was the lack of ridership, mosty of the times the train ran nearly empty. 2 it blocked up the Jerome Main by it s switching, and it ran duplication to the D and 4 Trains
12/08/99
Larry RedBird,
While traveling south on RTE.17 north of Harriman I passed an overpass and out of the corner of my eye was a building. I doubled back and up a street and sure enough was an old boarded up train station. Tracks were abandoned as well. Was this the old Erie-Lackawanna line?
Bill Newkirk
Bill: It sounds as though you came upon the original Harriman Station on the Erie Main. The stops on the old main line were Harriman,Monroe,Chester,Goshen,New Hampton,Middletown (not the one they use today), Howells and then Otisville. I believe that the south end of the old main line is still in use for frieght service at least as far as Harriman Village, but I could be wrong on that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
12/08/99
Larry,
On that Harriman station. Any idea when the station and the line was abandoned ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill: The first timetable that I have showing the new routing is dated April 29,1984.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, what I believe Mark saw is not the old Erie Main, but the old Erie Newburgh Branch, which runs thru various towns into the city of Newburgh; and I believe still (sort of) active. There has been numerous attempts by Newburgh area residents to have some kind of passenger service run on this line;most likely some of shuttle service using some kind of SPV. Otherwise they either have to cross the river into Beacon, or h drive to the Salisbury Mills/Cornwall station.(Which for some folks is a good 10-15 mile hike..) There is STILL a very short portion of the Main that runs about a 1/2 mile into the chemical plant there....Another good candidate for some sort of shuttle service on the PJ line is at Campbell Hall, where a NS branch runs up thru Maybrook, Walden, al all the way up to New Paltz (This is, of course the old LV line that ran over the Poughkeepsie bridge...). This particular area of Orange is especially booming right now ( the triangle formed by I-84,Rt 17, and the Thruway..),although the whole county is pretty much exploding...
Lou: You raised a good point. I hadn't though of the old Newburgh Branch. I think that that line has been out of service for some time. I believe that it started at Greycourt where it connected to the Lehigh and Hudson River and then ran north to Salisbury Mills and Vails Gate.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Lou...The Newburgh branch runs from the foot of Washington St. in Newburgh (where it connects with the CSX River line) to the Tarkett plant just across Rt. 94 in Vails Gate. This was only a branch off the line that used to go to Greycourt, but the tracks were ripped up in the mid-to-late 1980's, I believe.
The line to Tarkett used to join the Erie's Graham line somewhere in Highland Mills making stops at W. Cornwall, Mountainville, Highland Mills and Central Valley (nr. Woodbury Common); in fact, there is the remains of the Central Valley depot on the Graham line a few blocks off Rt. 32 in the village. This Erie branch to Newburgh was the RR's concession to Newburgh for bypassing them when they built West. I believe the branch below Tarkett had passenger service until the depression years. The NYS Thruway, more or less, follows the right-of-way of much of the line.
Carl M.
In April of 1984 trains were rerouted to the Graham Line between Newburgh Junction which was just south of Harriman ..
I haven't seen the rest of the posts yet, but it can't be .. this ROW runs right into the NYS Thruway, which means its abandonment must have been around the time the Thruway was built.
I am familiar with the Erie Main line which turned west at Newburgh Junction and ran to Monroe and points west.
--Mark
12/08/99
You know , all this talk about the abandoned Putnam Division is starting to sound like a future SubTalk walking tour!
My feet hurt just thinking about it.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: An interesting sidetrip would be the Getty Square Branch of that line. The station at Park Hill had some kind of an inclined railway or lift until about 1929 or so.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How far up is this ROW (approximate Thruway milepost)? Perhaps it was a siding off the "Graham line" (current Port Jervis line) intended to service the "STAR Mountainville" plant? (BTW, does anyone know what they make there?) If I understood you correctly, it is obviously not the old Erie mainline, since that turns west at Harriman and you are talking about something north of there. Or do you really mean looking left (west) and back (south) toward Harriman so that it could be that?
On this subject, awhile back I saw a book "Railroad Maps of North America" in a used book store. I didn't buy it, but should have. I'd love to have a book of maps showing where the active, inactive, and now-disappeared railroads were in the Northeast. Can anyone recommend a book and a place to buy it?
I have two book about railroad atlas.
(1) U.S. Railroad Traffic Atlas by Harry Ladd.
(2) Railroad Atlas of North America -- North East U.S.A. by Mike Walker.
I bought the first book at the Red Caboose in NYC, the second book in the Great Train Store in Union Station, Washington, D.C. You may go to the Red Caboose in NYC to look for them.
Chaohwa
On this subject, awhile back I saw a book "Railroad Maps of North America" in a used book store. I didn't buy it, but should have. I'd love to have a book of maps showing where the active, inactive, and now-disappeared railroads were in the Northeast.
Which spurs me to wonder again if anyone's thought of creating such a thing for the NY metro area (however you might define THAT).
I s'pose the response is, "Hey, if you'd like one, John, go out and create it!" Wonder how many copies of the NYC Subway track maps book have been sold. Multiple editions, obviously. Would such a book as I propose sell the same, do you think?
(Creating a railroad map of NY Area)
If you're going to do it, and I'll be happy to buy one if you do, better to extend yourself a little more and capture the Northeast, or at least New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. After all, seeing the railroad tracks doesn't tell you as much unless you know where they go, and inter-city railroads, unlike the subway, are not self-contained. That scope would be broad enough, along with arrows and notes to where the track connect to (ie. Chicago via Cleveland).
... capture the Northeast, or at least New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. After all, seeing the railroad tracks doesn't tell you as much unless you know where they go, and inter-city railroads, unlike the subway, are not self-contained.
The one *I'd* be most interested in buying is essentially the farthest limits of commuter trains in NYC metro area. It would reach to the ends of the NJ Transit lines, Port Jervis, Poughkeepsie, Wassaic, Danbury, Waterbury, New Haven and all of LI. Would this be of interest? I don't think I'd care much about PA, MA or RI, though it'd be hard to figure where to cut it off -- hence the NYC commuter definition.
(I guess my interest in subways extends to commuter rail but not all the way up to national rail.)
That said, your point about saying where the tracks go is a good one. And I think some of the history of ownership has to be associated with trackage, since so much is now owned by consolidated roads like CSX.
Any volunteers? [grin]
Gentlemen: a rail map such as you are proposing already exists (or existed). I bought a 'New York Railway Map' at an ERA meeting a few months back. The map includes subway, LIRR, MetroNorth, Path, some NJT and even SBK. The map is all black & white, but is double-sided. On the reverse is an NYC Subway map that is railfan friendly (i.e., it shows each INDIVIDUAL track on the system including most of the major NYCT yard tracks).
The map was printed on good quality glossy paper stock, and cost around $5.00. Funny thing about the map was that it was produced in England.
Pertinent info: The Quail Map Company, 31 Lincoln Rd., Exter GB, ISBN 0900609 96 6
Doug aka BMTman
I bought a 'New York Railway Map' at an ERA meeting a few months back ... printed on good quality glossy paper stock, and cost around $5.00. Funny thing about the map was that it was produced in England.
Pertinent info: The Quail Map Company, 31 Lincoln Rd., Exter GB, ISBN 0900609 96 6
Doug: Thanks!
Searching www.amazon.co.uk by ISBN produces only a message that they expect that they can obtain the "book" in 4-6 weeks, for a mere 1.70 pounds. However, the copyright is 1993 -- did you find any anachronisms?
Anyone got any online sources for ordering this one? For $5 + S&H, I'll take it sight unseen!
Yeah, that's it. Mine is dated 1993 as well. The only thing I noticed that is was the listing of SBK trackage along McDonald Ave. (which was outdated even when this map came out). I can excuse that detail since the authors are overseas based and getting verification of the existance of a small line like that would not be an easy task (after all, there are probably some folks in Brooklyn that are not aware that SBK no longer runs down McDonald Ave.)
Doug aka BMTman
The thing is, most of us know where the subway and commuter railroad are. Fewer of us know where the active freight railroads are. Fewer still know where they used to be, and which of those have a ROW that is more or less intact.
That's what I'd like to see. It would help to explain pre-auto development patterns, and could be used to anticipate possible re-starts of service.
The thing is, most of us know where the subway and commuter railroad are. Fewer of us know where the active freight railroads are. Fewer still know where they used to be, and which of those have a ROW that is more or less intact.
Oh, in my fantasy book, I intended to put in any piece of track that carries trains: subways + commuter RRs + freight RRs + LRTs + AirTrain + .... It's just an issue of how widely the circle from GCT gets drawn. Like I said, MA and RI don't do much for me personally.
And I gotta think the NYC metro area has quite enough track to make such a book interesting. How about you?
The North Shore Line only goes along the waterfront until just East of Port Richmond, at which point it crosses to the south of Richmond Terrace and ends up in a cut that runs until just East of the freight yard. Do you suppose that NJT might be interested in running LRV service over the rail bridge and along the North Shore to St. George? MTA sure doesn't seem to want to do anything with it. Taking a bus the length of Richmond Terrace makes as much sense as taking a bus from St. George to Tottenville.
For a look at what the Van Cortlandt Park leg of the Putnam looks like today, check this page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Putnam%20Branch%20page/putnam.html
Kevin Walsh
The northshore part of the SIR is not abandoned, I believe there was a filing for abandonement awhile back but the FRA/DOT(? or is it Interstate Commisson) has not ruled on it.
Operations of the SIR would be hampererd if the line was officaly abandoned, the only place to turn SIR trains is the wye that is located on the old B&O part of the St. George Ferry Terminal that is part of the north shore line.
This is also the location for Rudy's new Minor League Baseball Stadium now at over $70 Million.
Why do you need a wye? What benefit is received when you turn a subway train? Aren't there cabs at both ends?
SIR uses modified R44 cars but the R44's are made up of A and B cards. A cars have cabs on one end, B cars are cabless. SIR has run different configerations of the cars. A_A, A_A_B_A, A_B_B_A. I forget exactly how many A cars and how many B cars there are. If an A car goes down on the St. George End and the replacement is facing to Tottenville, they use the Wye to turn the car around.
If SIR had cars with cabs at both ends, then you wouldn't need a wye, but in a closed system you should have some ability to turn the facing of a car (even now revenue).
Just got back from a Bar Mitzvah where I took the Red line from White Flint to Friendship Heights. Two things happened. First, the train went 77 MPH just after entering the tunnel after coming off the bridge over MD 355 and the beltway. Last time I checked, trains can only go 75 there or if there were no restrictions on speed, anywhere. This site says 85 is the maximum (Wayne, you may want to check up on that) but Metro says it is 75 and we were going 77. I think it may have been that we gained some speed on the downgrade from the bridge but I am not sure. On the WMATA part of the site, it says the fastest they saw a train go was 79 in a similar sintuation (the downgrade from the bridge through the RFK parking lot between Stadium-Armory and Benning Road).
Second, the next Metro line may NOT be purple!!! The operator had 2 signs used in the front of the train covering the vent in the cab: The blue line sign and a white sign with black lettering reading "WHITE". He had no clue what it was for. Any ideas? To my knowledge, there is no purple sign, so we may see a white line before purple. I am guessing this is the back of the green sign.
1. Metro cars are mechanically capable of doing 85 but are restricted to 75MPH, and that only in certain situations. They can top 75MPH with the help of a downgrade.
2. Maybe WHITE is what they plan to call the Tyson's Corner line.
PS I got SNEAK PEEK pictures of the Green Line extension to Branch Avenue, taken earlier in the year. I am awaiting permission from the photographer to post them. Congress Heights is ARCH II, the six-coffer variety, high, and very round, much like Mt.Vernon Square-UDC. If this is where they were at in March, they may have made progress since then - some of these stations look like they only need finishing touches.
Wayne
I have the old Metro magazines and they say the maximum is 75, as well as some other literature I have read. The Metro is not faster than the BART which goes 85 under the bay.
I want to take the 5 train from GCT to Atlantic avenue this week. I am aware the 5 train does terminate at Bowling Green at non-rush hour times. I plan on doing this in the AM rush and want to know the latest I can get a 5 train to Brooklyn. I don't want to take the 4 because those are not Redbirds and don't have a good front window.
I am especially curious as to how the 4/5 East River tunnels to Brooklyn are (speed and appearance wise) since they look quite long.
Anyone have any opnions on how the ride from Manhattan to Atlantic avenue is on the east side IRT?
The only way is the 4 or transfer to the 2-3
5 trains can go into brooklyn as late as 9:30- 10:00 am during the week. That's because they are being sent to the the Livonia Av yard until the afternoon rush hour. After 10 am all 4 train, and according to MTA's website, they should only be going as far as Atlantic Av. Of course during the rush hour you would have a better chance of getting a railfan window on the #4.
The speeds achieved by the 4/5 b/t brooklyn and manhattan is amazing.
Many times I nearly fall off my seat. And, if I wasn't sitting down, my whole body will be rocking to the vibration of the train.
By the way, one day someone happened to be riding in between the cars. I swared that person wasn't going to make it (falling between those cars). THAT TRAIN WAS SO FREAKING Faaaassssstttt!!! But to my satisfaction, after the train stop I look to see if that person was still there. Yes she was; not feeling if she almost lost her life. As a matter of fact, her expression was "What's the BIG deal." Or, "I rided between the cars before when the train was doing twice the speed!"
A far outcry with the
N Broadway Local
b/t man/bklyn
[By the way, one day someone happened to be riding in between the cars. I swared that person wasn't going to make it (falling between those cars). THAT TRAIN WAS SO FREAKING Faaaassssstttt!!! But to my satisfaction, after the train stop I look to see if that person was still there. Yes she was; not feeling if she almost lost her life. As a matter of fact, her expression was "What's the BIG deal." Or, "I rided between the cars before when the train was doing twice the speed!"]
I almost got thrown from between the cars when I was a kid. We were going over the switches at 242nd Street, and the operator didn't wait for the rear cars to pass before accelerating.
Since then, I've never failed to hold onto a handle when walking through.
The ride through the Joralemon St (4/5) tubes sounds really nice. It looks like a long tunnel too. I know Montague st and Clark street tubes are also long, but the trains crawl in Montague.
Originally I was going to Atlantic avenue to transfer to a Manhattan bound D or Q, but I might like the ride so much I'll just hop on a 4/5 Manhattan bound and go through the tubes again.
I just love the sound of a train speeding though the tunnel and vibrating. Unfortunately trains like the R68 (Hippo) are so slow and feel as if they are lumbering through. Whenever I get those things on the N, it seems to take twice as long going though the 60th street tube than an R32 or Slant R40.
I have seen the R-62s get up to 50 mph in the Joralemon St. tunnel. There are a handful of Redbirds on the 4; in fact, I caught one such train in October from Bowling Green to Borough Hall. Unfortunately, it didn't set any speed records. Looking back, I should have stayed on board to Atlantic Ave. I could have checked out the old LIRR connection.
Other posters have indicated the R-68s initially build up a good head of steam in the 60th St. tunnel; however, they end up huffing and puffing on the upgrades. It's the same as trying to climb a steep hill in fifth gear with a 5-speed. The BMT standards behaved the same way in the 14th St. tunnel. They would be really moving along at the lowest point in the tunnel, but would lose speed on the upgrade, the bull and pinion gear pitch dropping lower and lower, finally getting as low as B below middle C.
At least by the time most of us remember the Standards on the LL, they had an excuse for their slowness -- they were all at least 40 to 45 years old. Try to imagine an R-68 climbing the 60th Street tunnel in 2027.
At least by the time most of us remember the Standards on the LL, they had an excuse for their slowness -- they were all at least 40 to 45 years old. Try to imagine an R-68 climbing the 60th Street tunnel in 2027.
Do you really think the R-68's are going to be around in 2027?
I do. They are quite reliable, and have benefitted by having preventative maintenance performed on them from the first day they were delivered. Deferred maintenance has shortened the life of many a subway car, most notably the R16 and the R21/22, both of which never saw their 35th birthdays.
With the current maintenance program, possibly. Of course, with their current horsepower situation, they may all be stuck at the bottom of the 60th Street tunnel by then...
The BMT standards didn't give me the impression of being slow. Their acceleration wasn't bad. The ones which lasted through the 1960s were rebuilt in 1959-60. There is a blurb in Subway Cars of the BMT or possibly Gene Sansone's book which states that some modification was done to increase motor power, althought it doesn't elaborate. Field shunting, perhaps?!?
Two other factors need to be taken into account: the BMT standards were heavy (95,000-99,000 lbs). Only the Triplexes were heavier. Plus, they had two motors per car, one on each truck.
Four words come to mind when trying to picture an R-68 in 2027: everybody out and push!
Yesterday I was able to take a southbound 5, which was a Redbird, to Atlantic avenue. The Joralemon street tube was very fast, and with the gentle curve the train had a real "rhythym" going through the tunnel.
The tunnel also had flourescent lighting, and seemed quite a bit more spacious than some of the other IRT tunnels.
There was also a sign by the signal at Whitehall that said "Joralemon street tube".
It was a very nice tunnel, coupled with the modern lighting and it being the longest in the system (?), plus the speed of the train in the tunnel was really nice. Funny though, on the return trip I had an R62 on the 4 but it was not as fast as the Redbirds.
This was at rush hour when more trains were present, I imagine the trains go even faster there at off-hours when less trains are in the tubes.
caught a ride in a redbird on a #5 recently, and happened to look over the conductor's shoulder in the tunnel (bklyn bound) -- saw the numbers '49' for a good solid ten seconds. man was he flyin'...
Well I guess as long as I get to GCT by 9am I should be able to catch a Redbird through the 4/5 tubes.
It should take no more than 25-30 minutes to go from Grand Central to Atlantic on the #4.
By the way, during the Rush Hours, and also during the day, they DO run R33 Redbirds on the #4 Line - #9222 - 9305.
Wayne
I want to look out the railfan window, that's why I want to ride a Redbird. I know some of the newer IRT trains (R62's) have front windows but more often they do not, especially the R62's on the 4 line.
What I meant was - during the rush hour and the mid-day, you have at least a chance of getting a real Redbird on the #4 itself.
If you go for the #5, you have a 95% chance of Redbird - there are two R62A's from Pelham about.
Last #5's run to Brooklyn about 9:30-10:00AM, some of them terminate at Atlantic.
Wayne
"I am especially curious as to how the 4/5 East River tunnels to Brooklyn are (speed and appearance wise) since they look quite long."
Length of tunnel between bklyn and man has nothing to do with speed. Since, the M/N/R lines tunnel length comes in second place with a fraction of the speed achieved on the 4/5. Actually, speeds on these lines (M/N/R) are the slowest in the system b/t bklyn and man.
N Broadway Local
[Length of tunnel between bklyn and man has nothing to do with speed. Since, the M/N/R lines tunnel length comes in second place with a fraction of the speed achieved on the 4/5. Actually, speeds on these lines (M/N/R) are the slowest in the system b/t bklyn and man.]
Yeah, it's really sad. The trains literally creep.
That is a shame, I remember the BMT Tunnel used to be so fast on the old Standards
[That is a shame, I remember the BMT Tunnel used to be so fast on the old Standards]
I'm still not sure why it's slowed down so much.
Speed in under-river tubes has greatly to do with the steepness of the grade. The grade in the 60th St. tube is extremely steep.
Steinway tubes also have a steep grade, but, the 7 trains don't go quite as fast there due to heavy use of GT's and WD's.
60th street is very fast, but not so fast with those Hippo trains (R68's).
Whenever I've been through Montague tubes I've always crept, but I've always had an R68 train. Do the R32's achieve any faster speeds in there?
When I go to Sunset Park (Brooklyn) I usually take the N all the way, or the D or Q then change to an N at Dekalb. But since it's very slow around Dekalb, plus a slow bridge ride or a long and slow ride through the Montague tubes it can sometimes take awhile. I wonder if taking the 4/5 to Atlantic then tranfering to the N at Dekalb is a better option since the N usually south of Dekalb (express tracks) is pretty fast.
I've never been to Atlantic avenue and trasfered to Dekalb, is it a long passageway, is it safe?
" I wonder if taking the 4/5 to Atlantic then tranfering to the N at Dekalb is a better option since the N usually south of
Dekalb (express tracks) is pretty fast.
I've never been to Atlantic avenue and trasfered to Dekalb, is it a long passageway, is it safe? "
I meant Pacific street, not Dekalb ave. Besides, I see that there is a transfer to the N from the IRT at Court street. Is that any better?
"I meant Pacific street, not Dekalb ave. Besides, I see that there is a transfer to the N from the IRT at Court street. Is that any better?"
That's a pretty long transfer too (court street). You will be better off transfering at Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street, because, the N has to negotiate several curves before Pacific Street.
What amazes me about the curves after dekalb avenue, is that, if you look at a map you will think it will be only one. However, it appears to be over 3.
The D is even more fascinating because from dekalb, it looks like a straight route into Atlantic. However, I counted over 2 curves there, and they are really loud ones.
As for the 4, those trains don't move as slow around the curve as the bmt trains do. So, your best bet is the #4.
N Broadway Line
Don't foget all the lovely Grade Timers added between Dekalb and Atlantic Ave (okay one is in the station itself). One derailment leaving Dekalb and we have 3 grade timers , shhesshseesh.
What REALLY annoys the p*** out of me is GT #409, southbound out of 7th Avenue on the way to Prospect Park, in the perfect spot to ruin a nice 40+MPH run. Why it is there is a mystery to me. It's a straightaway.
Wayne
It might be a straightaway, but the track is on a grade isn't it (that is coming up to Prospect Park from 7th Ave)?
-Stef
Yes...an UP grade! As I understand it, these timers are successors to timers that were put there many years ago, so that a train coming into Prospect Park from Seventh Avenue would not overrun the Prospect park station and foul (get in the way of) a Franklin Avenue Shuttle train moving from the southbound shuttle track to the northbound shuttle track. When was the last time you saw a shuttle train make such a move?
BTW, these timers are GT40/ST20, and most Train Operators slow down to 25 mph or less through this area. The timers clear to green long before the train reaches them.
David
[It might be a straightaway, but the track is on a grade isn't it (that is coming up to Prospect Park from 7th Ave)?]
Right. It's been many years since the FS has had to do moves south of Prospect Pk to get back to Franklin. If you have a switch between Botanic Gardens and Prospect Pk, why bother to foul up the local and express tracks outside of the station and holding up the Brighton local and express trains?
-Stef
As long as we are discussing the Franklin Shuttle, I'd like to make a modest service change proposal: During the PM rush (4 PM to 7 PM), wouldn't it be more convienent for passangers if the shuttle used the downtown platform at Prospect Park to terminate, thus making a cross-platform transfer from inbound D/Q trains possible?
As long as we are discussing the Franklin Shuttle, I'd like to make a modest service change proposal: During the PM rush (4 PM to 7 PM), wouldn't it be more convienent for passangers if the shuttle used the downtown platform at Prospect Park to terminate, thus making a cross-platform transfer from inbound D/Q trains possible?
I think they want to keep revenue service trains off the deadly Malbone St. curve.
The southbound platform has been used by the shuttle in the recent past. So it can't be that dangerous.
Yeah...I remember the first time I rode the shuttle, back in 1985. I was not at the railfan window, so I had no warning. When the train hit that crazy S-curve I nearly fell off the longitudinal seat.
Especially with a strike coming up!!!
Despite its deadly history, the reverse curve on the southbound Shuttle north of Prospect Park isn't much tighter than other curves in the BMT division. All that needs to be done is to treat it with the respect it warrants, as is done all over the BMT. It's on a par with the curve on the N/R between Whitehall Street and Rector Street -OR- on the n/b J/M/Z south of Chambers Street; perhaps the turning radius of the 80-degree section is a bit more severe.
Wayne
Despite its deadly history, the reverse curve on the southbound Shuttle north of Prospect Park isn't much tighter than other curves in the BMT division. All that needs to be done is to treat it with the respect it warrants, as is done all over the BMT. It's on a par with the curve on the N/R between Whitehall Street and Rector Street -OR- on the n/b J/M/Z south of Chambers Street; perhaps the turning radius of the 80-degree section is a bit more severe.
You might be right about that, but the Malbone St. curve carries the stigma of the horrible wreck that occurred there in 1918. As much as New York tried to forget the Malbone St. wreck, as demonstrated by renaming Malbone St. to Empire Blvd., the skeleton came out of the closet when an R-32 on the Franklin Shuttle, diverted to the SB track at Prospect Park due to track work derailed in exactly the same spot in 1974. That incident in 1974 was widely publicized. The R-32 sustained some damage. I don't know if the car was ever repaired and returned to service, or scrapped. The Wrecked/Scrapped Cars page on nycsubway.org indicates that the mishap occurred in 1972. That is incorrect. It occurred in 1974.
They could, but they don't need a bottleneck at Prospect Park between the locals, expresses, and shuttle trains. Place an additional crossover between the Park and Eastern Parkway, and this might be possible, unless someone suggests running the train to Coney Island which can't be done. 2 Car shuttles don't run all the way to Coney Island...
-Stef
I don't propose turning the shuttle trains around south of Prospect Pk. I propose just having the shuttle use the southbound platform during rush hours. the shuttle would still use the crossover just north of Prospect Pk.
It's not entirely a straightaway. It does have a mild curve.
Ride the northbound side. There's a curve.
Overkill, indeed. Overreaction, most likely.
There's the real tight curve from Flatbush into Fulton, that's at the south end of De Kalb. Then there's a little switch-out, followed by another really tight curve, going from Fulton onto Saint Felix Street. Atlantic Avenue station follows. It's not under Flatbush Avenue, rather it's sort of just east of it, following the line of Saint Felix. Then there's a third curve south of Atlantic, where it rejoins Flatbush Avenue. Ingenious track layout, for sure.
Wayne
Like the Vesey St. curve south of City Hall, the contortions of the Brighton line between DeKalb and Atlantic were forced on the BMT by the IRT's having secured the straighter route (Fulton directly onto Flatbush) first. How exactly does the curve from the Flatbush Extension onto Fulton St. avoid that IRT line, anyway? Does it pass under the corner property?
The N is so slow because it has too many sharp curves. The worst in the system being b/t Cortlandt Street and City hall (it really must has taken a lot of intelligent engineering to pull this one off; especially 75 foot cars)whereas the train turns right and left at the same point. Only the 5 b/t 138th St. and 149th Street might be worst (since they use shorter cars).
Although we are one of the slowest lines in the city, what we have over the other lines is:
1) connections to other lines are easiest
2) goes to the most attractions
3) serves the heart of three business districts (Midtown, Financial, and downtown bklyn).
That's why many people choose us (N R) as their transporation designation.
N Broadway Local
The Vescey Street turn had to go there because the BMT wanted a City Hall Station, and the IRT had first dibs on Broadway south of Vescey Street for the Contract 2 line. The BMT line had to move over to Church Street, creating the sharp `S' curve.
J Lee,
Doesn't the A, C, and E run on Church Street too?
"The Vescey Street turn had to go there because the BMT wanted a City Hall Station, and the IRT had first dibs on Broadway south of Vescey Street for theContract 2 line. The BMT line had to move over to Church Street, creating the sharp `S' curve."
These were competing companies at the time they were built, Right? I guess that explains the arraignment.
It would've made better since for the lines to share the same route after the city hall station - increasing the speed on the N/R lines.
N Broadway Local
The E stops right at Church and Vescey, on the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site. The A drops down below the N/R tracks and runs beneath it for about half a block, then turns east on Fulton Street (by the time the IND was built there were NO streets south of Fulton that the A train could continue towards South Ferry on, without going either all the way west to Washington Street or all the way east to Pearl, which is why any future southbound extension of the E from WTC would be unbelievable difficult.)
"(by the time the IND was built there were NO streets south of Fulton that the A train could continue towards South Ferry on, without going either all the way west to Washington Street or all the way east to Pearl, which is why any future southbound extension of the E from
WTC would be unbelievable difficult.)"
Is it possible to connect the E with the N/R Lines?
N Broadway Line
It would be virtually impossible using a flyover crossing, which is what I would assume the MTA would demand nowadays. You could connect the downtown tracks pretty easily with just a little zig-zag extension (provided you completely redid the control access area for the E and created an underpass access platform like at Penn Station) but connecting the uptown tracks would require a sharp drop under the tracks and then a quick rise to avoid the A tunnel turning onto Fulton.
It would be easier (but not easy) to connect N/R from the lower level at City Hall with the A by turning it eastbound on Ann Street. From there, it could link up with the Fulton/Cranberry tunnel, since Ann and Fulton Street merge just past William Street. But you would still have to dig under the 4/5 Lex, J/M/Z Nassau Street and 2/3 William Street lined to do it.
"It would be easier (but not easy) to connect N/R from the lower level at City Hall with the A by turning it eastbound on Ann
Street."
You mean the City Hall tracks don't continue to whitehall street? They just dead end at City Hall? Whoa! All this time I thought those tracks continued all the way to whitehall street.
This brings me to discussing the Manhattan Bridge. I notice a drop in the track bed around prince street. It looked like the express tracks fed into city hall station before the Manhattan bridge tracks were built.
Couldn't the MTA do one or two things:
1) swing the local tracks to allow room for the extra track bed to be built to City hall, or,
2) rebuild those tracks to it's orignal plan (going to city instead of canal street lower level.
This will give express customers two options, or, a better option.
Since you metioned it earlier; that's of course if those express tracks don't continue to whitehall street, is it really possible to connect these tracks to the A/C lines. I know that tunnel is under capacity.
Back to the Manhattan bridge tracks. I know traffic will be delay for sometime, however, wouldn't it be better to put the tracks in the middle of the bridge?
My plan would be to build three tracks in the middle. The B could use the middle track during the peak direction, while the D/Q use the local tracks. Moreover, the MTA could bring the N back to the Manhattan Bridge. It too could use the middle track in the peak direction skipping dekalb avenue as well.
This plan will benefit everyone. First, it will reduce the amount of strain on one/both sides of the bridge. And last, increase capacity for vehicle traffic traveling to/from Manhattan.
"It would be easier (but not easy) to connect N/R from the lower level at City Hall with the A by turning it eastbound on Ann
Street. From there, it could link up with the Fulton/Cranberry tunnel, since Ann and Fulton Street merge just past William
Street. But you would still have to dig under the 4/5 Lex, J/M/Z Nassau Street and 2/3 William Street lined to do it."
And where will the N or R use as a terminal? I don't know if that will work unless they created another line just for this task.
N Broadway Local
what bridge does the Q TRAIN cross now ??
The Canal Street tracks off the bridge were originally designed to continue past Broadway along Canal towards the west side. When the BMT's plans changed, the express tracks were dropped to the Canal Station (another sharp turn, BTW), leaving the express tracks on the upper level high and dry.
If they ever did decide the Manny B was not worth saving, the only reason for hooking the lower level up with the A would be to use the Fulton-Cranberry tunnel to get to Brooklyn. Another connector would have to be built on the Brooklyn side to hook it back in with the BMT Southern Division.
However, with all the tracks that it would have to cross, plus the MTA's prefrence for the Sxith Ave. line over the Broadway line, they'd be more likely to hook the Rutgers tunnel into the DeKalb connection, so the B and D could get into Manhattan.
As far as the bridge goes. I would remove the outer track on both sides of the bridge, build a flying junction on the Manhattan side to connect with Sixth and Broadway and run Brooklyn-bound trains on the southwest side of the bridge and trains to Manhattan on the northeast side. That way, both sides would get equal traffic each day, which should lower the torque on the suspension.
This doesn't do anything for getting hte N back on the express track, but at least the Q could resume running as the Broadway express, the way God meant it to be.
If your going to spend money on that, why not just build a tunnel to replace the tracks? At least 2 tunnels for the 6th Ave. line. The center of the Manny B can be outfitted with 2 tracks for the Broadway line, and the 2 outer trackways can be used for cars. With the tracks in the center, the mechanical problems associated with this bridge and having trains run over it are mostly solved.
I don't mind the sharp curves at all. The ones north of Cortlandt are the best. Slant R40s make some incredible noise in there. I remember "N"s #4370-4371 last May (which I just saw on the Ch.4 News) on one trip - they sang an aria while weaving their slanted noses through the serpentine. The turn entering Rector Street from Whitehall is very tight as well.
As for the Mott Avenue Jughandle - I wonder if they have track sprayers in there. The last few Redbirds I rode there were surprisingly quiet, despite the N/B curve's 125-degree angle and very tight radius (must be no more than a couple hundred feet). The S/B curve has a steeper angle (130 degrees) but a much wider radius.
Wayne
I have never seen a track sprayer over at Mott Avenue, but it's always a possibility, don't you think?
-Stef
While that might be the tightest curve in the system, it isn't the loudest. That honor goes to the curve just north of East Tremont Ave. Although today it somewhat quieter, that curve still makes a noise heard all the way into the Bronx Zoo. As a kid, in the late 70's/early 80's, it was 10 times worse. I could hear IRT trains making that curve while riding the African monorail! God help those who lived right there.
What do you do to cut that noise? Grease the rails on the el?
-Stef
I think everything that can be done has been done. The ideal solution is to tear down that curve and replace it with one that's less severe. Chances of happening: 0%
Inbetween the time the train turns left to right, they must be a very big opening. Still, I don't know how they manage to fit the R68/46's in there. That's really tight! No wonder those trains really crawl through there.
I think the south bound from City Hall is worst than the north bound from Cortlandt Street.
It appears to be some relief (straight track) before you get to the City Hall. But with the southbound, nothing at all. Just a lot of curves and noise.
"As for the Mott Avenue Jughandle - I wonder if they have track sprayers in there. The last few Redbirds I rode there were
surprisingly quiet, despite the N/B curve's 125-degree angle and very tight radius (must be no more than a couple hundred
feet). The S/B curve has a steeper angle (130 degrees) but a much wider radius."
I still think the #5 has that sharpest curve in the system. I'm taking about the one b/t 138th Street and 149th Street. THAT BABY REALLY MAKES SOME NOISE!
I always thought the route the #5 took from 138th Street and 149th Street is strange. How does it get underneath the #4? I'm lost.
Meanwhile the 4 is a straight route into that same station (149th Street). Unbelievable indeed.
N Broadway Local
Inbetween the time the train turns left to right, they must be a very big opening. Still, I don't know how they manage to fit the R68/46's in there. That's really tight! No wonder those trains really crawl through there.
That stretch of track was origionally designed for the 67' Standards. The 46/68's are only 8' longer. Before the 75' cars entered the system (R-44's), a 75' clearance train (an R-1/9) extended to 75' with feelers was tested throughout the B-Division. Any tunnel walls that needed to be shaved to fit 75' cars were shaved. To my knowledge, the only part of the B-Division that won't handle 75' cars is the Jamaica El, with its curves at Crescent St. and Cypress Hills.
Also the curves at Myrtle Ave make 75' cars on the M line an impossibility as well.
Also the curves at Myrtle Ave make 75' cars on the M line an impossibility as well
Not So!
In 1976, the ERA Convention was held in NYC. On 7/4/1976, a fan trip was held using the D-Type, the museum R-1/9 and an R-46. I took these pix of the R-46 at Wycoff Ave. and Fresh Pond Road on the Myrtle Ave. Line.
BTW, these photos and scans are ©Copyright protected and may not be reused or republished without written permission from the author.
Duly noted! HOWEVER - They may be able to get ONE R-46 (or other 75-foot beast) up the Myrtle Avenue curve, but could they get TWO of them side-by-side without sideswiping each other?
Maybe "THERE'S THE RUB" :o)
PS - Love those 1917 Platform lamps! Too bad they're almost gone. Only good set left is at Atlantic on the Canarsee Lyne and even THEIR days may be numbered. There's a couple left at Eastern Parkway and also at the end of 111th Street on the "J".
Wayne
Duly noted! HOWEVER - They may be able to get ONE R-46 (or other 75-foot beast) up the Myrtle Avenue curve, but could they get TWO of them side-by-side without sideswiping each other?
That's a very good point. I don't know if that's ever been tried and tested. One thing is for certain - there is no question about the 67' A/B's. They ran on Myrtle/Chambers, Jamaica Ave., 14th St.-Canarsie. they have been tried, tested and proven. I don't know why they had to go to 75' cars anyway. Do you know how much gouging and chisling they had to do throughout the tunnels of the B-Division just to make those suckers fit! sixty-seven feet is long enough. This is rapid transit, not a railroad.
Hey, could you imagine the R-44/46's being 67' instead of 75'. Also, if they were laid out exactly like the A/B's - 3 sets of wide double doors with the separator in the middle, seats laid out just like the A/B's seating 3 across, and railfan windows in front. As modern A/B's, they would be stainless steel outside, same plastic walls with the City and State logos, and the same molded seats inside, with air conditioning. Better yet, instead of sporting the blue stripe that they had in the '70s, have a green stripe instead, with the BMT logo instead of the MTA logo. I'm a HARD-CORE BMT FAN.
And with the little window on the motorman's cab and ceiling fans of course!!
I have one which I "acquired" (stole) from the old Queens Blvd BMT station. And no, it's not for sale. LOL
Just like the cane seat I stole acquired from a Myrtle "Q" car on its last day of operation in '69.
Also the curves at Myrtle Ave make 75' cars on the M line an impossibility as well
Not So!
In 1976, the ERA Convention was held in NYC. On 7/4/1976, a fan trip was held using the D-Type, the museum R-1/9 and an R-46. I took these pix of the R-46 at Wycoff Ave. and Fresh Pond Road on the Myrtle Ave. Line.
BTW, these photos and scans are ©Copyright protected and may not be reused or republished without written permission from the author.
If those curves can handle 75' cars, then why can't the curves near Crescent? I don't think the Myrtle Ave curves can handle 75' cars on a regular basis. I think that what you described was a special occasion.
If those curves can handle 75' cars, then why can't the curves near Crescent? I don't think the Myrtle Ave curves can handle 75' cars on a regular basis. I think that what you described was a special occasion.
True, but on that "special occasion", we didn't take the R-46 up on Jamaica Ave. It was already known in 1976, that the days were numbered for the outer portion of the Jamaica El. The El was painted in 1974, right up to the amputation point at 127th St. It would have been more appropriate to go to 168th St. on that 7/4/1976 trip. Evidently, 75-footers can't take the Crescent St. curve. I guess 67' for that curve is the limit. I know that the el at the Crescent St. curve comes very close to a building on the corner. It is my belief that if a 75-footer can handle Myrtle for a special occasion, it is safe enough to run there regularly. Could you imagine the consequences of that fan trip train falling to the street! The TA wouldn't have allowed it if it wasn't safe; which is probably why the R-46 didn't go to 168th St. that day. A 75-footer would probably graze that very close building while trying to negotiate the Crescent St. curve. If I am wrong; if anyone can document that a train of 75' cars did go up Jamaica Ave., please let us all know.
The 75-foot cars more than likely COULD handle Cypress Hill's 85-degree curve, since there is a gap between the two sets of tracks, where a third track would have gone. Crescent Street? Outbound - MAYBE, since it's on the outside of the curve, and therefore has a greater turning radius than the Inbound. Any 75-footer trying to negotiate THAT one might just swipe the building next to the tracks - or the radius may be just too small to permit it to turn safely. All cars have a minimum turning radius. It's about 120-150 feet for 60-foot cars, a bit less for 51-footers, a bit more for 67-footers, still more for 75-footers.
Wayne
"67-footers"
I didn't know they had 67 footers cars. Which ones are those? I thought all of them were 60 footers E, C, A (32/38 series), J, M, Q (40/42 series).
Oh my god, don't tell me I missed it. Pleaseeeee....
If that's true, someone is running 9 cars, because, I think, 10 67 foot cars will be too big for a 60/10 car station.
N Broadway Local
And I thought I master the train system until now.
The old standards were 67 feet
"67-footers"
I didn't know they had 67 footers cars. Which ones are those? I thought all of them were 60 footers E, C, A (32/38 series), J, M, Q (40/42 series).
Oh my god, don't tell me I missed it. Pleaseeeee....
If that's true, someone is running 9 cars, because, I think, 10 67 foot cars will be too big for a 60/10 car station.
N Broadway Local
And I thought I master the train system until now.
The first BMT steel cars used for the BMT Subway, the BMT Standards, or A/B's were 67' long. They ran from 1914 until the last ones were retired in 1969. See the subway car in my graphic below? That's a BMT Standard. There were no 60' cars until the IND came out with the R-1's in 1930, which were used on the BMT for 2 years until the IND opened in 1932.
A group of R-1s ran on the Sea Beach line in 1931 for testing purposes. They were even equipped with BMT route and destination signs. Before the year was out, they were returned to the IND, even though the first portion didn't open until Sept. 10, 1932.
A group of R-1s ran on the Sea Beach line in 1931 for testing purposes. They were even equipped with BMT route and destination signs. Before the year was out, they were returned to the IND, even though the first portion didn't open until Sept. 10, 1932
I always thought that the R-1's were loaned to the BMT and ran in regular service on the BMT before the IND opened.
Didnt someone post a few months ago about the BMT wanting to buy R-1 subway cars for it's own use, but was unable to because the city threatened to cancel it's existing contract for the IND R1's if they sold cars to the competing BMT lines?
Didnt someone post a few months ago about the BMT wanting to buy R-1 subway cars for it's own use, but was unable to because the city threatened to cancel it's existing contract for the IND R1's if they sold cars to the competing BMT lines?
I don't remember reading anything like that. Besides, the BMT was too advanced to put an order in for such antiquated equipment like the R-1's. Look at the Multi's, Green Hornet and Zephyr that they came out with in the 1930's; and ultimately, the Bluebird in 1940. The city was still taking delivery on the R-9's in 1940, when the Bluebirds came in. Check some of the facts at http://bmt-lines.com/ This is not my site, by the way. While on the BMT site, click on "History", and read about BMT rolling stock.
Fom what I remember (and it's a bit fuzzy) the BMT was strapped for cash and had a serious steel car shortage in the early 30's. It wanted to buy a number of R1 type cars because it would be a lot cheaper to do that then to have to draw up a new design for a new car and outfit a factory to produce them. But the city threatened to cancel it's much bigger contract with the builder of the R1 (ACF?), so they refused to sell any to the BMT.
Fom what I remember (and it's a bit fuzzy) the BMT was strapped for cash and had a serious steel car shortage in the early 30's. It wanted to buy a number of R1 type cars because it would be a lot cheaper to do that then to have to draw up a new design for a new car and outfit a factory to produce them. But the city threatened to cancel it's much bigger contract with the builder of the R1 (ACF?), so they refused to sell any to the BMT.
If you come up with any definite substantiated facts on this, then let us all know, because I never heard of this before. But, I'm always interested in learning facts that I didn't know before. As for a shortage of steel cars in the early 1930's, isn't that what the Multi's were supposed to alleviate? They arrived in 1934. It would make no sense ordering R-1's if the Multi's were coming. Its ironic, how the BMT took delivery of 6 Bluebird units, had another 50 on order, but the City cancelled that order when they took possession of the BMT in June, 1940. In 1940, the IND was still taking delivery of R-9's, while the BMT waas taking delivery on its far-advanced Bluebirds. Same time period, but the Bluebirds are to the R-9's what the Modern Era is to the Middle Ages. All BMT cars were advanced for their time. The Standards, the Triplex's, the Multi's, the Green Hornet, the Zephyr and the Bluebirds. If the BMT were still in business today, I think we would all be shocked at what we would see in service today, if they had the Bluebirds as early as 1938.
IIRC, the Multi's were ordered after they attempted to buy some R1 cars from ACF. The BMT wanted to buy an already designed car because it would save money, which the cash strapped BMT was a bit short on during the Depression.
Looks like the city used it's influence to speed up the eventual demise of a private BMT system.
I wish the person who posted on this earlier would repost the specifics again.
IIRC, the Multi's were ordered after they attempted to buy some R1 cars from ACF. The BMT wanted to buy an already designed car because it would save money, which the cash strapped BMT was a bit short on during the Depression.
Looks like the city used it's influence to speed up the eventual demise of a private BMT system.
I wish the person who posted on this earlier would repost the specifics again.
The City choked the BMT and IRT to death by building its competing IND, which siphoned riders off the privately-owned lines, and the bigger death blow came when the privately-owned BMT and IRT could no longer make a profit with the 5¢ fare. The kicker is that they needed approval from the City to increase the fare, which the City would not grant. Talking about forcing someone out of business! It wasn't until 1948, that the City was forced to finally hike the fare to 10¢.
Why was the R1 considered antiquated equipment when they were new? They were the first cars to have 8 doors, all double leaf. They had both front and side destination signs with 3 rollers on the side, unlike the standards 2 rollers. You could say that if it was the Low-V's they wanted to buy!
The R1 was boring, not antiquated in 1932. They would have served well on the BMT had they purchased them.
Boring? BORING!?! With the moans, groans, grunts, hisses, snarls, and throbs they emitted, plus any other sounds I forgot to mention, how can they be called boring? I loved those cars!
That's OK. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion.
Unfortunatly I never rode one. I'm just repeating what was told to me. If they sounded like the R9's did, then they certainly weren't boring.
The R1's and the R9's were basically the same.
The R1's and the R9's were basically the same.
Except for avery few minute cosmetic details, all R-1/9's were the same.
I would hardly call them boring. I am very partial toward all the pre-war equipment. SMEE equipment could never sound like AMUE equuipment. Its just that they were antiquated next to a BMT Bluebird.
Which makes me wonder, why were there so many model numbers if they were basically the same? The only differences I can remember now are those cutout niches under the door windows on the outside. Some train had em, some didn't. Another difference were the manufacturers. Anyone know any others?
Which makes me wonder, why were there so many model numbers if they were basically the same? The only differences I can remember now are those cutout niches under the door windows on the outside. Some train had em, some didn't. Another difference were the manufacturers. Anyone know any others?
Every R-number is a contract order for rolling stock. The R-1/9's were separate contract orders for basically the same car. Some of the cars were either ordered at different times or from different manufacturers. The R-1/9's were built by ACF, Pullman Standard and Pressed Steel Car Company. What seems like gaps in the numerical order for passenger equipment are orders for non-revenue (work) equipment. As for the R-1/9's, they literally are:
R-1
R-4
R-6-1
R-6-2
R-6-3
R-7
R-7A
R-9
The divider in the storm door window was on all the series except the R-1's and R-4's, which had a solid piece of glass. They also had other minute differences. The glass over the rollsigns was a sharp rectangle on the R-1's and R-4's, but it was rounded on the later cars in the series. Another difference was in the windows in the door pockets on the outside of the car. The R-1 through R-6 was the same. R-7 and R-9 were different. The fans were different in some cars, also. I don't remember which cars had which, but some were Westinghouse and some were GE, and the fans were different.
Thanks for the info. As a kid some of those little differences made me take a double take, like "I thought these cars had ...." or "I thought they were manufactured by ...". They were such small things I thought I was just wrong until the next time when the car was a little different. One question, that pump-like brake handle in the front that clanked with the car's rocking when going fast, did all of the R1-9's have them?
Thanks for the info. As a kid some of those little differences made me take a double take, like "I thought these cars had ...." or "I thought they were manufactured by ...". They were such small things I thought I was just wrong until the next time when the car was a little different. One question, that pump-like brake handle in the front that clanked with the car's rocking when going fast, did all of the R1-9's have them?
Yes, all the R-1/9's had them. The Q-Types and C-Types had the same mechanism on the outside of the cars. The wheel on the front interior of the Lo-V's were the same thing. I believe the Standards and the D-Types also had a brake handle on the interior. Even the newer R-Types had them. They look different and they are more subtle. The next time you're on a redbird, an R-32 or an R-38, go between cars and look on the right side of the next car, on the lower part of the storm door well. You will see something that looks like a lever. That lever-type started with the R-10's.
The R-6-1s had the GE fans with the pointy little noses; I believe the Pressed Steel cars had them too. All the rest were Westinghouse fans.
Wayne
The R-6-1s had the GE fans with the pointy little noses; I believe the Pressed Steel cars had them too. All the rest were Westinghouse fans.
Wayne
Are you sure it was just thr R-6-1's. I could have sworn that more of the R-1/9's had the "pointy nose" fans. I thought ti was more like half. Then again, I guess my assessment is biased, as most of the R-1/9's that I rode were the R-6's on the E, EE, F and GG.
12/12/99
Didn't the BMT Standards have those GE "pointy nose" fans too. I believe some or all of the deck roof cars had them, the rehabbed ones I remember.
Bill Newkirk
Both the R-1/9s and BMT standards moaned and groaned the same way as they accelerated. All prewar equipment did so, as a matter of fact, because spur-cut bull and pinion gears were used. Postwar equipment from the R-10s on had helical-cut bull and pinion gears, which are much quieter.
There was a subtle difference in the door sounds on the R-1s and R-4s compared to the R-7s and R-9s; unfortunately, I can't recall which category the R-6s fell into. On earlier cars, the doors made a sound similar to shaking a sheet of construction paper as they closed. On later cars, they emitted a very audible "awwwwrrrrr" sound. I can hear the difference on heypaul's tape. The CC ride (R-4s) features the former while the LL ride (R-7, R-9) is an example of the latter.
I thought all of heypaul's tape consisted of R9 sounds. Where on the tape is this R4 CC ride???
Why was the R1 considered antiquated equipment when they were new? They were the first cars to have 8 doors, all double leaf. They had both front and side destination signs with 3 rollers on the side, unlike the standards 2 rollers. You could say that if it was the Low-V's they wanted to buy!
You're comparing the R-1/9 of 1930 with the BMT Standard of 1914. I'm comparing the R-1/9 with the advanced BMT equipment of the same era. first off, except for the 8 double-leaf doors, everything you described about the R-1/9 was already accomplished with the D-Type from 1925. Fact is, many of the so called "advanced" features of the R-1/9 were copied from the D-Type. The Multi's were more advanced that the R-1/9. Look at the Zephyr in 1934! It took the TA until 1964 to use stainless steel for subway cars. The BMT Bluebird was much more far advanced than the R-1/9 in the same time period. That's why I call the R-1/9 archaic. Compared to the Multi's and Bluebirds, they were archaic. Hey, so were the 1938 World's Fair cars. They were very little improved over the Lo-V's.
Also, don't forget the six remaining 67-foot R-110B cars. They're on the C now, but if their modified to run on the L in the future with with the R-143s they would end up in the Eastern Division.
It's doubtful that the R110B would ever run with R143's, given that the R143 is only 60' long. I see the remaining R110B cars being put on the Rockaway Shuttle. They'd be absolutley perfect for the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, had the TA not been so short sighted in building the new sations to a length of only 170'.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in the other post. I just meant the trains would be adapted to work with the new signal system on the L, not that they would MU with the R-143s.
I doubt that as well, as 6 cars is a very short train, even for the L. It's already too short for the C. Look for them to be on some shuttle somewhere.
BMT Standards were 67' in length. They provided the bulk of Eastern Division subway service for nearly 50 years, into the late 60's. All BMT stations were built at lengths of 550', to accoodate 8 car trains of 67' cars (536'). In fact, if it were possible, J, M and L trains could run 9-car trains of 60 footers.
"In fact, if it were possible, J,
M and L trains could run 9-car trains of 60 footers."
So why don't they (MTA) run 9 car 60 foot J/M trains?
N Broadway Local
Because until now, all the 60 footers on the BMT-IND since the R-27 have been married pairs, requiring the trains to run in multiples of two.
They could have done in earlier with the R-7/9s and R-16s, or with the (very) occassional R-10 that snuck over to the Eastern Division, but that's about it.
A funny thing about the J line: the 2 new stations in Jamaica are also 550 feet in length, leaving open the possibility of running longer J trains in the future should it become possible.
Isn't that station length based on the 10 car E line not the 8 car J line?
N Broadway Local
No, both platforms are shorter on the "J" level.
Service patterns don't warrant it, and married-pair car types make odd-numbered train lengths impossible.
The 75-foot cars more than likely COULD handle Cypress Hill's 85-degree curve, since there is a gap between the two sets of tracks, where a third track would have gone. Crescent Street? Outbound - MAYBE, since it's on the outside of the curve, and therefore has a greater turning radius than the Inbound. Any 75-footer trying to negotiate THAT one might just swipe the building next to the tracks - or the radius may be just too small to permit it to turn safely. All cars have a minimum turning radius. It's about 120-150 feet for 60-foot cars, a bit less for 51-footers, a bit more for 67-footers, still more for 75-footers.
Wayne
You're probably right on all counts.
[The 75-foot cars more than likely COULD handle Cypress Hill's 85-degree curve, since there is a gap between the two sets of tracks, where a third track would have gone. Crescent Street? Outbound - MAYBE, since it's on the outside of the curve, and therefore has a greater turning radius than the Inbound. Any 75-footer trying to negotiate THAT one might just swipe the building next to the tracks - or the radius may be just too small to permit it to turn safely. All cars have a minimum turning radius. It's about 120-150 feet for 60-foot cars, a bit less for 51-footers, a bit more for 67-footers, still more for 75-footers.]
Which brings up a question I have--could shorter cars take the sharp turns on the N/R at a higher speed? And if so, wouldn't it make sense to use them?
NO car, 60 or 75 feet, should EVER try and negotiate curves like that at a speed greater than 10MPH. Whiplash could result, especially since all three curves (s. of Rector, n. of Cortlandt, n/b n. of City Hall) are of the dual variety.
I've been through that stretch on just about every type of B Division subway car that's ever run except for maybe the AB's, R10, R11 and R44:
D Type (1998 fantrip); R-6-3 (represents all R-1 thru R-9) (EE), R32 (N and R), R38 (EE), R40 (N), R40M (EE), R42 (RR), R46 (R), R68, R68A (N).
Wayne
"D Type (1998 fantrip); R-6-3 (represents all R-1 thru R-9) (EE), R32 (N and R), R38 (EE), R40 (N), R40M (EE), R42 (RR), R46 (R), R68, R68A (N)."
The R38's and R32's are probably the loudest through that tunnel. R46's (normally fast) suffers as bad through that same tunnel. Reason? Both trains are over 70ft. long.
N Broadway Local
I forgot to mention: R16 (EE), R27 (QT and RR) and R30 (RR) going through the BMT Tunnel route. Up until recently, the Kings of Noise were ALWAYS the R27/R30s. That crown has been snatched by none other than Slant R40 "N" #4171-4170. Went from De Kalb to 14th Street on th is one. I knew almost immediately this would be a noise-fest - we made way more noise than usual between De Kalb and Lawrence, and again between Lawrence and Court. Her wheels must have been out of round or something or maybe something was causing them to drag on the tracks. We made no more than maybe 25 or so in the Montague Tube. Anyway, when we pulled out of Cortlandt, we crept along at a feeble 5MPH (usually they go maybe 8MPH) and then there was SEVERE wheel noise, especially from under #4171's rear truck. People were holding their ears. I, being the proverbial nice guy, got up and put my head out of the "B" end storm door to listen to the din. One guy sitting by the #4 door said "What did you have to do THAT for?" - I said to him that it was music to my ears and he just shook his head.
Wayne
Yeah, I remember that they stopped painting the Jamaica Ave el at the exact spot that it was designed to connect to the new ramp down towards Archer Ave, just before the line went over the LIRR mainline. For years, you knew that once the steel supports turned from gold to green, you were in Jamaica. You would think they could have repainted it all the way to Queens Blvd (or Supthin Blvd, where the tracks terminated from 1978-90), because that ugly green paint job was in desperate need of replacing. You could see chunks of it on Jamaica Ave., probably falling off when a train roared overhead. Hope there wasn't any lead in it.
As for that Myrtle Ave. curve, I still can't see how it was able to clear those buildings so close to it. But you say they did, so they must be able.
I don't think the structure of the Jamaica El can support the 75 footers
The structure can. Some of the curves are too sharp for them.
Aren't the tight curves on the Canrasie Line also out of the question for 75 footers?
Yes, the one just east of the Graham Avenue station effectively nixes the 75-footers. It's a radius of just over 200 feet - TIGHT. PLUS - the platform lengths themselves are a mere 536 feet (give or take a few ells), too short for eight 75-footers. That's the REAL stumbling block.
Wayne
I always thought those Canarsie stations were shorter than 536 feet. That equates to an 8-car train of BMT standards. A 6-car train of standards seemed to just fit inside one of those stations, and that's all I ever saw when they were still around.
I thought the Canarsie line had it's stations built to regular BMT specs (550 feet)?
I had often wondered about this bizarre arrangement. The 2/5 line actually cuts uderneath the 4 line, and continues west. Then the 2 Lexington Ave. tracks switch off and curve almost 180 degrees, almost like making a complete U-turn, then curving south about 90 degrees when the tracks get underneath the #4 line. I always thought that a connection east of 149th-Grand Concourse would have been easier, not requiring that myriad of curves. The only logical explanation I could find for why the present configuration exists is because the Metro-North line might block the simpler connection.
If it were being built today, they would probably route the #5 northeast from 138th St. so that the next stop was 3rd Ave./149th St.
But it was built back in 1917 or so, and I guess they wanted to have all trains stop at the transfer station at 149th St./Grand Concourse.
(I am assuming these ramp tracks used by the #5 were built at the same time as the tracks used by today's #4, but I am not positive of that.
Does anyone know for sure if they were, or if the station at one point was used by the equivalents of today's #2 and #4 without there being a track connection between them?)
The sound of trains rounding the sharp curve there can be like chalk on a blackboard sometimes. But I agree it seems to have gotten a bit less severe in recent months.
Another question about this station:
On the surface, at the SW corner of 149th and the Concourse, there is a small building with a tiled sign reading "Mott Avenue Station". It is located next to one of the entrances to Hostos Community College. The thing about this building is, it has no doors. Just a large window with an iron grate covering it. I call it a "window" because it does not reach to ground level. What was this building originally for? Is it an extension of the elevator shaft for the (now closed) elevator to the lower platform? Is it still needed for anything?
Ah, MOTT AVENUE, that's music to my ears. I was up there on October 27th with Steve B and subway-buff and was in perfect position on the head end of the southbound platform to listen to the northbound Redbirds sing. The rails began to clink - then we heard a muffled hoot, then lights in the jughandle mouth and then R29 #8711 swept into the station, screaming like a banshee. I love it! As I had previously mentioned, I suspect there may be sprayers in the curved section of tunnel before the switch, but at the switch-point itself, it's a Redbird Opera. I wonder if the R142/R142A are going to make such sweet music. I bet they will - the R62A's put up a terrific fuss leaving Brooklyn Bridge to turn in the City Hall Loop. My one ride through there (Sept. 14, 1997) aboard #1762 was an ear-splitting experience.
Wayne
I forgot to mention someone. The one cars that seem to go around that turn (Cortlandt and City Hall) is the Slanted 40's. Even the 32's seem to have a hard time going around that curve.
N Broadway Line
I think motormen go into "cowboy" mode when operating the R40 slants, because of their speed.
Now there's a word I havent used in years. My grandfather (an MTA worker for 35+ years) used to refer to motormen who sped as "cowboys".
The R40's are fastest downhill and around curves. The 38's perform better uphill and straight track.
N Broadway Local
I think that speedwise, the R40/42's can't be touched.....on any kind of track.
Now that you mention it - they do.
Anybody remember the movie "The Cowboy Way", and its co-stars - Slant R40 #4310 and #4311?
Wayne
Then that would qualify all motormen who ran the R-10s on the A. Maybe Indy driver would be a better description.
Wayne,
"N/B curve's 125-degree angle and very tight radius (must be no more than a couple hundredfeet). The S/B curve has a steeper angle (130 degrees) but a much wider radius."
Explain N/B and S/B? And, how did you come up with that diameter?
How does the sharp curve b/t cortlandt Street and city hall compare to the #5.
Fulton Street on the 2/3 line is pretty sharp (similar to whitehall street and Rector Street), but that's not the same thing.
N Broadway Local
Ah, but was it an aria for a coloratura or lyric soprano? Or, perhaps, a Wagnerian? Wait, that pertains to the R-68s. Rim shot!
The 5 trains we took on our excursion didn't make a whole lot of noise on that notorious curve at Mott Ave. I did notice the old-style IRT signal on the Manhattan-bound side.
Some #4’s do use “Redbirds” on their run; conversely, about a week or two ago I saw some R-62 or R-62A’s running on the #5.
12/05/99
I checked on a tip from Mark W. about the LIRR DM-30's in the NY Cross Harbor yard at 1st Ave. Yep! They're there , looking kinda dirty. I was told they were sent back upstate for some reason and they're back ready for LIRR service. They're #500 and #501 , against the fence and blocked by some old diesel. Unphotographable.
Bill Newkirk
12/05/99
Yesterday I was riding northbound on the (B) West End and observing the resignaling work. I noticed no southbounds so I got off at 36th St and took the next southbound (B) to Coney. We ran express to 59th St and after 59th St. express to Coney Island down Sea Beach middle.
Today I returned with my car and a 6 foor ladder at Ave P overpass to photograph this move. The sunlight was nice , the ladder overcame the fencing but one south bound was on the local. The signals were red in both directions. Anyone familiar with the G.O.? Is Sea Beach middle used for this weekend diversion on Saturdays only and Sundays run local because of reduced headways?
Bill Newkirk
There could've been a delay in N service.
Back in October, I took the B to Bklyn on a Sunday. There was a diversion that day with no B trains running southvound. Instead, we ran to 59th street, via 4th ave exp, then wrong-rail on the Sea Beach Exp to, I think, Kings Hwy, then switching to the southbound exp track for the rest of the trip to C.I., where it switched back to West End tracks. Not exactly a smooth ride, but it was quite a trip.
Joe C
Remember a few weeks ago we were talking about Spalding Hi-Bounce Balls. I received a catalogue from a Company called Ebbets Field Flannels. Of all places. Check out their website WWW.Ebbets.Com. They have Spal;dings @ 2/$5.00. I just ordered 4 packs and some old T Shirts
Remember a few weeks ago we were talking about Spalding Hi-Bounce Balls. I received a catalogue from a Company called Ebbets Field Flannels. Of all places. Check out their website WWW.Ebbets.Com. They have Spal;dings @ 2/$5.00. I just ordered 4 packs and some old T Shirts
2 for $5.00! man, I remember when they were A Quarter each. Those and the Pennsy-Pinkies. The cheap no-brand pink rubber balls were a Dime. I'm talking early and mid-sixties. I'll bet there are people on SubTalk who remember 50s, 40s or earlier. How much was a "Spaldeen" back then?
In the mid 50s they were any where from 15 cents each to a quarter, depending where you bought them. On Kings Highway, or Near Marlboro Theater on Bay Parkway. Never bought them any place else
In the mid 50s they were any where from 15 cents each to a quarter, depending where you bought them. On Kings Highway, or Near Marlboro Theater on Bay Parkway. Never bought them any place else
I lived in Manhattan when I was growing up. Spaldings and Pennsy-Pinkies were a Quarter at the local toy stores. Like I said, those were the good pink rubber balls. The cheap ones were a Dime. That was in the early and mid sixties. I also remember 10 and 15¢ kites - Hi-Flyers, 10¢ water guns (the little ray guns the size of a derringer), Topps Baseball Cards - 10¢ for 5 cards with a stick of bubble gum or a pack of 10 cards with no gum. If I would have saved those, I'd be a millionaire today. My first year with Baseball Cards was 1959. I got them every year through 1967. I remember the 15¢ pizza, the 15¢ fare, nickel pinball, later a Dime. The nickel machines had wooden legs. Pinball machines had 5 separate balls until 1965. I used to love to play 2 or 3 balls at a time!
I too remember the Spaldeens as being a quarter. Growing up in Sunnyside, none of us could afford it on a regular basis because we "roofed" many of them over a row of stores or they went in the street and down the sewers. We would walk to Stevens TV on 50th and Queens Blvd and buy the "factory seconds" for either 8 cents or 11 cents. They were marked 'Spauldings' but didn't bounce as high but since we knew they wouldn't last long, why spend the extra money?? We could but 2-3 packs of baseball cards for the difference in price.
If only we kept the Tops and Baumann baseball cards from the 50s. I would be a millionaire now. Boy what would rookie Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays and Henry Aaron Cards be worth now????
I lost all mine playing "colors"!! Remember??? Maybe we should start saving Pokemon cards, whatever they are!!!
I remember never having the good luck to ever get a Willie Mays, Mantle or some of the other superstars of the time...Always thought that is was a marketing ploy by Tops to get you to buy more packs of 5 cards plus a large stick of sugary bubble-gum for 5 cents.
I remember never having the good luck to ever get a Willie Mays, Mantle or some of the other superstars of the time...Always thought that is was a marketing ploy by Tops to get you to buy more packs of 5 cards plus a large stick of sugary bubble-gum for 5 cents.
I think so. I don't ever remember seeing many Yankee cards. Yankee cards were extremely rare. Whenever I think about Baseball Cards, I often wonder if Topps did this all over the country, making hometown teams'cards rare in the hometown (say Cubs and White Sox cards rare in the Chicago area and Red Sox cards rare in New England). BTW, I collected BB cards from 1959-1967. I remember the price being 10¢ for either 5 cards and a stick of gum, or 10 cards and no gum. If it was 5¢ before 1959, I don't know.
It was a m nickel for a pack of six between 1948-1954, and then Bowman's was the best card. They went out of business after 1955. Topps came out with cards in 1952 and my gripe was there were too many Yankees and not enough Dodgers. Maybe Topps of Brooklyn did want us to buy a lot of cards and were stingy with their hometown team, but I doubt it since there were Yankee fans in Brooklyn, especially in Italian neighborhoods. When I bought my first three packs of tops, I got three 1952 Mickey Mantle cards. Do you know what they are worth today? I hated the Yankees so much that I threw the cards away, and never bought Topps again until l957 when I was by then a Californian.
And DEM BUMS ARE STILL WITH YOU FRED
Brighton Beach Bob: Not the Los Angeles Dodgers, but the Brooklyn Dodgers? Until all eternity.
Same Team, same ownership (up to now) Just dummer fans. How many times in the early days of the LA Dodgers did the people take their radios to the Stadium, so Scully can tell them what was happening. In Brooklyn we took our radios to the games to hear the other teams. But they still were the Dodgers
I guess you can say we have another thing in common: we both got rid of baseball cards which are worth mucho dinero today. In my case, it was a Nolan Ryan rookie card. And I'm a Mets fan!! Go figure. I should say that I gave away all of my cards in 1973, nearly all of which were from 1968-69.
I guess you can say we have another thing in common: we both got rid of baseball cards which are worth mucho dinero today. In my case, it was a Nolan Ryan rookie card. And I'm a Mets fan!! Go figure. I should say that I gave away all of my cards in 1973, nearly all of which were from 1968-69.
I collected baseball cards from 1959-1967. Like most every other kid, when the current year's cards came out, I would throw out last year's.
That's why they're worth so much. Everyone thought they were worthless if they were last year's cards.
If only I had kept that Nolan Ryan rookie card instead of GIVING IT AWAY back in 1973....
The building where Spaldings used to be manufactured is still standing on Pacific Street and 6th Ave. across from the LIRR yard.
Doug aka BMTman
The December issue of Railpace has a picture of the star of the movie"Money Train" R-21 7186 sitting in the Coney Island Yard and visible from the street,MacDonald Av and Av X.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, it's on the 'scrap track' over by the paint shop.
Too bad none of the trolley/rapid transit museums are interested in the car. I would think by showcasing a 'star car' the revenues from visits by curiosity seekers (as well as interested railfans) would increase a museums funding (even though the car itself is not technicaly a museum piece).
Doug aka BMTman
A friend of mine who's a Road Car Inspector told me that he recently 'pre-tripped' (TA term for inspected) both N1 and N2. He said that they are kept in excellent and very clean conditions as opposed to other MOW diesels that he clains are kept like pig stys. He said that the cleanliness had little to do with the fact that the SBK diesels interchange (or used to) with common carrier rail freight, but more on the pride that the crew takes in running them.
The two units were over at the 36th Street yard even though he is assigned and usually works at the Westchester shops.
Thought this would be of interest.
Doug aka BMTman
This reminds me I don't have this months RailPace with me but they meantion the work loco at GCT to be returning to the TA. When I get home I'll post the info.
12/05/99
We have been talking about the Polo Grounds shuttle walking tour as of late. Just a reminder to anybody just tuning that it's on. Just find the main page , the one with the four subway car photos on top. Click on Upcoming events for all imformation. Let's have a healthy turnout! BRING LOTSA FILM !
Bill Newkirk
Did anyone else hear that the old trolley tunnel that existed at the crossing of Church Ave. and Ocean Parkway is to be unearthed and reused to ease traffic congestion problems in central Brooklyn?
I saw it on Channel 5's 10'0 Clock News. Just a brief story with a quick shot of the current intersection. There was no time frame mentioned either.
Doug aka BMTman
There was a story I think in the Sunday News. It said the tunnel runs beneath Ocean Parkway and would allow Church Ave. traffic to pass under the highway, while making left turns onto ramps off Ocean Pkwy. leading to Church Ave. easier. But they'll have to widen the tunnel first.
I believe other trolley/train tunnels converted to traffic use run under the Grand Concourse in the Bronx and Park Avenue at 32nd St in NYC.
www.forgotten-ny.com
A few years ago I forwarded the idea of building underpasses to our transportation division. The idea is Brooklyn (and SI) have no highways, only major streets with signal priority. They back up when two of them cross, because neither can have priority. The idea is that if you put in underpasses where two major streets cross, you get two streets with a lot of capacity that are less disruptive than a highway.
The problem is, these suckers cost $100 million each (why, I don't know), so there is another memo that died off. Perhaps they can do it if a tunnel is already there.
It was in the News or The Post this Sunday, the Church Ave is still many years away. Of all the propsed traffic fixes adding a new exit to Brooklyn Bridge is the one they will do in 10 years.
There is a vehicular tunnel in Park Av South, btwn 33 St and 40 ST, that was actually built as a RR tunnel ca 1854 to service the first Grand Central. When GCT was moved to 42nd St, the tunnel was converted to trolley use. About 1920, it was converted to auto traffic . It still has an intact trolley station in its center, only accessible by the tunnel interior- watch that traffic while your taking pixs.
The express tracks on the Lexington Ave. line are directly beneath this vehicular tunnel, which is why they're set lower than the local tracks at 33rd St. I wonder how that tunnel was shorn up during subway construction.
Not very well, apparantly, since one of the street collapses was at 37th and Park Ave.
I believe that tunnel is called the Murray Hill Tunnel.
[There is a vehicular tunnel in Park Av South, btwn 33 St and 40 ST, that was actually built as a RR tunnel ca 1854 to service the first Grand Central. When GCT was moved to 42nd St, the tunnel was converted to trolley use. About 1920, it was converted to auto traffic . It still has an intact trolley station in its center, only accessible by the tunnel interior- watch that traffic while your taking pixs.]
Hey, I didn't know about that trolley tunnel.
I've always wondered why they didn't use that tunnel to link the Penn Station tracks to GCT--I imagine it would cost a small fortune to get past the subway lines, but the advantages of linking Penn Station and Grand Central are apparent.
Who would link it. the PRR and NYCentral were bitter enemies way back when they could have done it. The private transportation companies, well they favored on or the other. Most of the New Haven Trains ran out of GCT. Could should would, it never happened.
[Who would link it. the PRR and NYCentral were bitter enemies way back when they could have done it. The private transportation companies, well they favored on or the other. Most of the New Haven Trains ran out of GCT. Could should would, it never happened.]
But I would have expected it to happened after Penn Central went under.
While I am not sure that it was never ever ever used for trolleys, I am pretty sure that the Park Ave. & 32nd St. tunnel was originally used for RR trains before the depot was moved North from Union Square to 42nd Street. As for the underpasses crossing the Grand Concourse, it was my impression that they were put in place when the IND line was built and were always used by auto traffic.
Anybody know for sure?
There is a book in the Tracks of New York series, called the Metropolitan Street Railway. In that book, theres a picture of a trolley coming up the tunnel ramp.
Also photo in Brooklyn Trollwy Cars
"Union Square"
Madison Square
I also heard this. IIRC, the tunnel was filled with rock and debris c.1960 rather than simply sealed.
If they had to clear it out and widen it, it might cost more than a new tunnel.
Also, it appeals to me that, if it were widened it wouldn't really be a resurrection of the trolley tunnel so much as a new tunnel in the same place.
Yes, I saw that too. I heard about that idea being knocked around by the local Community Board and City Planning as well for atleast 10 years. I guess they picked up on it. Before they get all excited, they might want to make sure its still there ie was not "daylighted" and filled in back in 1956.
As I recall, Paul Matus is right about the Church Avenue tunnel being filled in with rock and earth, but I think it was soon after the streetcar service was discontinued rather than later, in the 1960s. Obviously, I could be wrong.
Back around 1954, I tried to find out (through BMT Trainmaster's office acquaintances on Jay Street) when that tunnel was built and there was no record anyone could find of when it opened. I never tried to check out old newspaper files, though, since one of them might have reported when it opened. Anyone have any references on this?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Lets use some deduction on this one. Ocean Pkwy was built about 1880, so it cant be older than that. The Church Av trolley was electrified in the mid 1890's- I would make and educated guess thats when the tunnel dates from. Also, in old photos, the tunnel fly walls appear to be stone. If it were built after about 1910, it would have been concrete.
I have a memory of standing with my father looking east from Ocean Parkway at the tunnel in 1960, and that the work to fill and close it began not long after. So this would have left the tunnel unused for a good 3-4 years after abandonment.
As to its date of opening, there was a law that Ocean Parkway was not to be crossed by tracks--this was why the Manhattan Beach RR had to build a tunnel at great expense. I think the Church Ave. car was opened about 1895 and that it used the tunnel from day one.
I don't think there was any trolley crossing of Ocean Parkway except possibly at Neptune Ave.--and that might have been grandfathered.
The Coney Island Ave Trolley crossed Ocean Pkwy at Brighton Beach Ave, I am looking at the Brooklyn Trolley Lines Map on the back of the Book Brooklyn Trolleys, and there were only 3 Trolley crossings. Church, Neptune and Bright Beach Ave
The Coney Island Ave Trolley crossed Ocean Pkwy at Brighton Beach Ave
I believe that the point at which the Coney Island Avenue trolley crossed the street is officially Surf Avenue, not Ocean Parkway.
No Paul, the Trolley never went to Surf Ave, After it turned off CI Ave to Brighton Beach Ave, it went West, past Ocean Pkwy 1 block, and turned onto a PVT Right of Way, then onto Sea Breeze Ave, Straight into the Loop around the Bus Garage.
Paul, at first I thought you were right---that Ocean Parkway ended at Brighton Beach Ave and the road became Surf Ave. Looking at a Brooklyn Map reveals that Ocean Parkway continues another block south of Brighton Beach Ave, which is Sea Breeze Ave, and that Surf Ave starts from that point.
I have the tape of Brooklyn Trolley Lines Part 3 which focuses on the PCC Cars and the tape does show that turn around and also shows the Church Ave tunnel at Ocean Parkway.
You can find a ton of pictures on this tunnel at http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/nyc/brook.htm
Look Under Brooklyn & Queens Transit
I don't know when the current smooth curve from Ocean Parkway into Surf Avenue was built. My 1928 Red Book lists no cross streets for Ocean Parkway south of Brighton Beach and none for Surf Avenue east of W5, even though there was surely something along the line of Surf Ave. east of there way earlier.
That curve smells of Moses era, but I'm by no means certain of that.
At any rate, the Coney Island Ave. trolley (Coney Island & Brooklyn RR) has to predate construction of Ocean Parkway so near the shoreline.
No Paul, the Trolley never went to Surf Ave, After it turned off CI Ave to Brighton Beach Ave, it went West, past Ocean Pkwy 1 block, and turned onto a PVT Right of Way, then onto Sea Breeze Ave, Straight into the Loop around the Bus Garage.
I have to call you on that one, Bob.
The PROW for the Coney Island Ave. car was EAST of Ocean Parkway. There were no tracks on Brighton Beach Avenue at Ocean Parkway.
The PROW intersected the point where Ocean Parkway ended and Surf Avenue began and the tracks turned west onto Sea Breeze Ave. to the CI&B terminal.
So I might get away with saying the C.I. Ave. trolley didn't actually cross Ocean Parkway. On City maps, where does Ocean Parkway end? The north curb? The south curb? The middle? Don't laugh, things like that count for, say, an accident investigation.
That PROW goes by the name of, I think, Brighton 1st Court or Brighton 1st Place. It's paved over but still closed to vehicular traffic.
--Mark
If you go to the corner where Ocean Pkwy turns into Surf Ave, there is a street sign. One side Says Surf Ave, the Other Ocean Pkwy, so at the turn is where one begins and the other ends. Maybe you are right, the trolley might have turned before O.P. but it still crossed Ocean Pkwy
i think you did a very good job!! i am 50 years old maybe i could do as good also !! dont give up your project maybe you could design a master pattern that could go into production and make some money etc.
thank you very much salaamallah@yahoo.com
i think you did a very good job!! i am 50 years old maybe i could do as good also !! dont give up your project maybe you could design a master pattern that could go into production and make some money etc.
thank you very much salaamallah@yahoo.com
Just saw this movie today and I saw what I believe were former R30s 7815 and 8571?! 8571's interior # was 8322. 7815 had an 8 and a 9 in the number. Can anybody clarify this?
Red Bird Guy 9600
7815 is an R-26 and is still in service.
David
[Just saw this movie today and I saw what I believe were former R30s 7815 and 8571?! 8571's interior # was 8322. 7815 had an 8 and a 9 in the number. Can anybody clarify this?
Red Bird Guy 9600]
I know this is off topic and I hope Dave don't mind just this much but I have noticed that SubTalkers occasionally talk about computer equipment and modern electronic innovations. I just found this site and if anyone wants to read about the latest technological electronic advances for the new century and millennium CLICK HERE
I LOVE IT!!!
Thanks Sarge for that link, although I feel
especially uptight about being Off Topic. What I
really got a tickle with was: when I looked at the
initial picture on the screen, it seemed like that
the red object in the background was an
etch-a-sketch, which seemed like a real goof.
I guess it's a sign of my age, but I really don't
buy into a lot of the technology that's being sold
now-a-days. I guess I've resisted getting caught up in the latest computer, or graphics software, or
newest computer language. It still doesn't replace
style and talent and an artist's way with words or
images. Strip away the Palm Pilots, the Note-books, the whole Internet---- what do we really know about
ourselves and others?? ---- how do we show our
connection to ourselves and others as we approach
1-1-2000 when, as I have been predicting, the face
of mass transit in NYC will take a 50 year leap back in time. Electronic destination signs will be a
thing of the past, when good old hand cranked roll
signs or even better, individual destination signs
that are kept in a box. Who needs large destination signs in front, when we can have kerosene lanterns
on top of our low-V's? ( I still have trouble
believing that they actually used kerosene to light
those marker lights. ) Testing a train for 5 or 10 years to figure out what's wrong with it will be a thing of the past. Building a Boeing trolley car, which had a couple of hundred parts on the front door assembly to go wrong will be a bad memory.
Back to the 40's and 50's, when workers produced on typewriters and used adding machines and when other people weren't busy scheming how to rape this country of its wealth and spirit. Back to the age of Dicken's A Christmas Carol, when a wealthy greedy person like Scrooge wisely took his chance to change himself. after experiencing the real horror of his ways.
12/06/99
Jeff,
How did you manage to get into 370 Jay St. and photograph that equipment?
Bill Newkirk
I can't remember when I've had such a good laugh, and I work in the "technology" sector. In order to bring this subject on-topic for SubTalk; in my opinion, transit technology reached its nadir with the PCC car, and that has never been improved upon. Take that, dot-matrix destination signs!
"....transit technology reached its nadir with the PCC car"
Don't you mean Zenith?
From the Random House Websters Dictionary (software) © 1992:
na-dir (nay'duhr, -deer) n.
1. the point on the celestial sphere
directly beneath a given position or
observer and diametrically opposite the
zenith.
2. the lowest point; point of greatest
adversity or despair.
[1350-1400; ME < < Ar nazir over against, opposite
to (the zenith)]
Derived words
--na'dir-al, adj.
Merriam-Webster shows the opposite, the zenith is on top, and nadir is on the bottom. Everyplace I've heard use those words used them that way. Besides, why would anyone trademark their TVs as the bottom?
Oh wait, that Zenith on it's own line made me think it was a completely different definition OOPS. I've always heard the PCC as very high tech for it's time, how could it be considered the nadir?
ze-nith (zee'nith; esp. Brit. zen'ith) n.
1. the point on the celestial sphere
vertically above a given position or
observer. Compare NADIR.
2. the highest point or state; culmination;
peak.
[1350-1400; ME cenith < ML < OSp zenit, scribal
error for zemt < Ar samt road (cf. Ar samt ar-ras
road above (over) one's head, the opposite of
nadir)]
What does posting this definition I already know, achieve?
You haven't answered my question with this.
You haven't answered my question with this.
What was your question? I read so many posts on this site, I can't remember.
I've always heard the PCC as very high tech for it's time, how could it be considered the nadir?
I've always heard the PCC as very high tech for it's time, how could it be considered the nadir?
I didn't say that it was. Somebody else did. All I did was copy and paste the definitions of nadir and zenith from my dictionary software into SubTalk.
I stand corrected. I am truly embarrassed, and vow never to misuse the word "nadir" again. Thanks to all alert SubTalkers for catching my error.
I stand corrected. I am truly embarrassed, and vow never to misuse the word "nadir" again. Thanks to all alert SubTalkers for catching my error.
I didn't even know what the word nadir meant. I had to look it up. Zenith is the high point. I never knew what the low point was.
Hey, now that you know, use as appropriate!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If anyone is a fan of thre movie "Escape from New York" perhaps you may own the director's cut video. It contains the trailer and interview with the director John Carpenter. During that interview he show's the scenes that were cut from the movie wich shows Snake Blisken robbing a bank and boarding a subway train. The station where he boards the train is bright white. If anyone has this tape maybe they can tell me what subway is depicted in this cut scene from the movie. Even at the end of this scene Snake is caught by the police as he is exiting from this subway. The director says that in the movie, Snake is to take a subway train that runs from St. Louis to Los Angeles.
If any of you saw The Warriors (1979), here is surrealism at work. Certain gang members are supposed to be boarding an elevated train in The Bronx, and what set of “R” units is there? A train of BMT-IND R-27/30’s (which is omnipresent throughout the entire picture)! Now, everyone knows that The Bronx has no elevated “B-Division” section, right? Plus the fact that every underground station they go to looks like Hoyt-Schermerhorn (probably because they were all shot at Hoyt-Schermerhorn).
Don't get too technical... The Warriors was one really hyped up movie. When I left that movie, I was so psyched up I was almost ready to kill someone, and I look like a tall Woody Allen. If I am not mistaken, wasn't it that movie that had some riots in the theater or after the movie?
If a bunch of R30's can end up in California, then anything is possible.
Speaking of ridiculous subway scenes in movies, what about that scene near the end of The Bone Collector? The woman cop is looking for clues in an "abandoned subway station" near the Battery, around the SI Ferry terminal. She comes across a wrecked and abandoned Standard in the station! Amazing how the BMT decided not to recover it up but rather just leave it there. Maybe there's more to the Malbone Street wreck than we realize....
That shows it's a fantasy movie. There are no wrecked Standards -- the Standards are the ones that wreck all the other cars they collide with.
Look for green R10's on the C in JACOB'S LADDER.
Joe C
Unless, of course, a Triplex were to crash into a standard. I don't believe that ever happened. Now, two Triplexes DID collide at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. Talk about a sonic boom...
12/08/99
Sonic boom ? You mean earthquake!
Bill Newkirk
The was NOT a Standard in The Bone Collector.
It was an IND R-1/9 type car.
Well, Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised as 96th St. Union Square, OTOH, is the real McCoy; in fact, there are brief shots on all three lines which have stations there. Actually, they snuck in a very brief shot from the Broadway line; it's the "To 14th St. subway" direction sign which used to be displayed on the station columns.
One thing is consistent throughout the movie: inconsistent train markings. Apparently, no one paid any attention to that aspect. One train pulls into a station signed as an M. Near the end of the film, during the scene with the prom couples, a QB/Local via Bridge side route sign is visible.
The railfan views during the opening titles were all shot along Fulton St. And at the very beginning, the R-42s make a cameo appearance on the D line.
12/08/99
I stated this in a post a while back , but for those who are new here:
If you have the movie Diehard:With a vengeance , and it is on tape , you'll notice the scene where Bruce runs through the train with the bomb and toss it through the storm door window. As the train (R-27/30) enters the station signed up for an IRT route (#1 ?) look closely at the scene of the train in tunnel with bomb flying through window. The signs are between (A) and (C)!! A slow motion on the VCR will show this better. OOPS! We forgot to change the signs in the rear!
Bill Newkirk
"Escape From New York" was actually filmed in St. Louis.
That's what I call taking EXTREME liberties to the point of being absurd.
How about the movie Mimic......that had plenty of subway scenes,what was the station with the room at the end of the platform which led to the vast underground station with that relic of a subway car....was there ever that type of car ever used in N.Y.C. or for that fact ever made ? that's the 2nd film made depicting the lost subway..the 1st was the 2nd Ghostbuster movie,opps sorry there was the ninja turtles movie which also had a lost subway car and station,that car looked like it might have existed...any thoughts ?
"Mimic" was flmed in Toronto. TTC cars.....
AMTRAK BREAKS NEW GROUND WITH START OF WORK ON $140 MILLION FREQUENCY CONVERTER TO SUPPORT HIGH-SPEED RAIL SERVICE: Amtrak today broke ground in Northeast Philadelphia on the $140 million Richmond Frequency Converter Replacement Project, a facility critical to ensure reliable Amtrak high-speed rail service and commuter rail operations on the Northeast Corridor between New York, Philadelphia and Washington.
The frequency converter station, which changes commercially generated electricity from 60 Hz to the 25Hz frequency required to power Amtrak and commuter trains, will be the largest such facility in the world. The frequency converter station will help deliver traction power for trains carrying 75 million passengers a year, including 10.3 million Amtrak passengers, 19.2 million SEPTA passengers, 41.8 million NJ TRANSIT passengers and 3 million MARC passengers. Amtrak is constructing the Richmond Frequency Converter with the help of the Pennsylvania Economic Development Financing Authority (PEDFA), part of Pennsylvania's Department of Community and Economic Development.
PEDFA issues tax-exempt and taxable bonds and makes loans to businesses to finance land, building, equipment and working capital.
Construction of the two-story structure that will house the converters and converter controls is expected to be completed by January 2002. The converter station will be built on vacant land at the south end of the PECO's Richmond Generating Facility. This project will create approximately 125 jobs for skilled labor during construction and approximately 16 full-time positions with Amtrak. With the completion of the converter project, Amtrak's Northeast Corridor will have ample traction power capacity to run all 20 Acela Express high-speed trainsets, while increasing the reliability of all Amtrak and commuter trains that run on the Northeast Corridor. High-speed train service will begin operating next year between Boston and Washington, as part of the rebranding of NEC service as Acela. The current facility on the site was built over 60 years ago by the Pennsylvania Railroad as part of the original electrification of the Northeast Corridor between New York and Washington. The new frequency converter station will replace the aging current facility as well provide the additional capacity necessary to reliably sustain the expected growth in Amtrak and commuter train operations.
(Amtrak)
Gee, I really get things scrambled. I thought that when they made the voltage changes in the North East Corridor years ago, they also changed the frequency to 60 cycles from 25 cycles. I thought that was one of the issues that made it impossible to run a GG1 on the new electrical system. They are still using
25 cycle?
Putting that aside, I think one of the most interesting ERA monthly programs I've ever been to, was right around the time of the changeover of voltage on the corridor. A man who was with the PRR from wayback, I think as an electrical engineer talked about the old system and what problems the new system might bring about. I remember him talking about phase gaps, whatever that was or is, but most memorably he gave me a tremendous feeling for the genius of the men who built the original Pennsy system. I wonder if there are any ERA members here who might have been to that show also?
Dats why I posted that news blurb. I am totaly confused now on what the cycles are and to be Was to Bos and everything in between.
DC to NYP is 11kv, 25hz. Same thing the GG-1 and the PRR's you-know-what-class MUs ran on.
NYP to New Rochelle is 12.5K, 60hz. The switch is one the approach to the Hell Gate.
NR to New haven is also 12.5k 60hz, but the phase breaks are stretched out more AND the voltage is allowed to climb higher. As high as 15k in places (according to a Metro-North guy I talked to on the subject.
About one mile north of NH, it goes to 25kv, all the way to Boston.
There's really no technical reason to run 25hz, except that Septa's MUs may not be able to run on 60hz. It's an obsolete system that (IMHO) should have been done away with in '83. 50-60hz AC is a proven technology. Has been since the early 60's.
maybe all the AC Catenary will be compatible when the (NYC style--NEVER do anything like the ZZPRR!!) non-conforming third rail on MNCR is changed over. (facilitating NH service to Penn and LIRR service to ANY track at GCT) Wear snow suits in the sub basement.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the advantage of having so many different voltages and frequencies between Boston and Washington? Wouldn't equipment and roling stock be less expensive to build, purchase, maintain, and operate if there were a uniform voltage and frequency for all mainline railroad catenary systems?
Absolutely. But we've got a legacy to contend with, and maintaining the old frequency on the Corridor is a lot cheaper than retrofitting all the existing equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For NJT to upgrade the Morris and Essex divisions from 3000 VDC to 25,000 VAC it cost 1 BILLION dollars. Or at least that's what I heard.
Well, Once upon a time, everybody was 11kv, 25hz.
But the New Haven couldn't generate electricity very well. And in any case, nobody really made 25hz AC or 25hz equipment after WWII anyway.
Then the PC happened, and the New Haven line got handed over to Metro-North (first under conrail). Along with an aging 25hz power station, and transmission system. They (smartly) ditched it for comercially available 60hz. But the clearances on the NH line are tight, so they couldn't go to 25kv (as had been done in europe), so they bumped it to about 12.5kv from 11.
Amtrak was thinking of going over to 25kv 60hz, and 12.5kv 60hz where the clearances were tight (not unheard of, the English used to have dual 6kv / 25kv lines at one time). They actually repowered north of NYP to New Rochelle, but for some reason, never pushed south.
Then one day, they finally decided to finish the NH line's electrification to Boston (on hold since WWI). Since 25kv was what they were going to go to all along, that's what they went with.
NJT runs 25kv already, partly because they expected Amtrak to convert in the 80's (70's?)
Thus, began the popular myth that the NEC is 25kv.
Amtrak, and eveyone else, would LOVE it if the NEC was one voltage. 25hz required a heavier transformer than 60hz, so it's a weight penalty. MN would love to run into Penn under the wire, but can't because it's 25hz in penn and the M-4s and M-6s can't handle that. The people who design locomotives would love it if everyone made up their mind - no tap changer, voltage detection equipment, etc.
Why amtrak isn't phasing in 60hz (no pun intended), is beyond me. Even at 12.5k, 60hz has definite advantages. I've also heard the AEM-7s do better on 60hz power (I'd assume they fly even better on 25kv AC). Unless Amtrak was stupid, the signal system if and when it was rebuilt, should be able to handle a frequency / voltage change. AFIK, insulation / clearences are independant of frequency. They could probbly even retain much of the distribution network.
According to Commuter News: They will use 25 K Voltage. The Station will convert the 60Hz to 25Hz.
My question: Does SEPTA uses 12.5K or do they use 25K-- either they switch on the fly (Trenton must be 12.5 since the NEC to NYC uses 12.5)
Septa's 12.5 (actually 11k or 12k depending on PRR side Vs Reading Side)
OK- but if the new electrical station has 25K how will that help SEPTA's operations since they do not use 25K (and neither does NJT except for their ALP locomotives which can switch on the fly.)
Doesn't Amtrak use the 12.5 (or around that number) for NYC to Philly
No idea. Maybe they're thinking of going to 25k, but if so, it makes real sense to ditch 25hz operation. I wouldn't be surprised if they could go 25k now, without much catenary work - the PRR seemed to massively overengineer it (they seemed to like doing that)
The NEC, PRR section, is 11kv, 25hz.
When was the NE corridor first electrified?
I know that the PRR built its sections from about 1920 to about 1933 and the New Haven started in 1911 and probably finished in the 20's.
I was on car # 7795 this mmorning on the #5 line. The maedallion in the car claimed it had been built by the St. Louis Car Co. The car rosters I have seen indicated that it was built by ACF. Anybody know what's right and what's wrong?
AFC is correct.
I think you mean ACF!!!! AFC? That has something to do with the turnstiles that accept MetroCard.
Speaking of ACF's Joel, there was talk that a pair, if not more, will be preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum. Wouldn't that be great?
I know that at least somebody's interested in saving a Married Pair.
-Stef
Speaking of cars, I just realized that 6688 has been reincarnated into a Bombardier R142. Subway cars do live on I suppose.... I just hope that the New Tech Cars won't be dissapointing.
-Stef
American Car Foundry or American Car and Foundry
hey guys......need your expertise.......for years I have looked down from my amtrak train over the trestle end of the Hell Gate bridge .....2 shells of what appear to be an R44 and an R12 have been used by the Fire Dept for training on Randall's Island...anyone know their original numbers and why they were chosen??? Really enjoy this message site to help keep up on things!! MANY THANKS to anyone who can shed light on this question.
Not sure of the unit numbers, but there were about eight R44 which did not go to GOH - it's probably one of them.
Wayne
I spent the day ( a rainy one) riding several SEPTA vehicles. The 109 bus from 69th st. to Springfield Mall was great on a Neoplan bus.
I really like that whine they make in first gear. I took the 101 Media trolley back to 69th st. and it seems like the old "K" cars are still hanging in there. The trolley operated smoothly at all speeds.
Then I rode the "el" from 69th st. to 15th. st. No problems, no station overshoots, etc. I changed for the BSS at 15th st. , as I had to go to Pattison Av. to the First Union Center to buy some discount tickets. The BSS cars are also operating well, except the operators bring them to jerky stop so they can hop out of their seats to open the left side doors in this OPTO operation. I also saw many stations on the south end of the BSS being cleaned up or refurbished.
They even wash down a lot of the sation platforms or sweep them right after rush hour!Made the return trip on the BSS and the "el"back to 69th st. The track layout on ths BSS is really something south of City Hall . Does anyone have a track layout of SEPTA'S Broad St. Line?
SEPTA seems to be getting there.........
Chuck Greene
I saw some work down there too when I was there in July. I didn't notice any jerky stops on the 2 times I've ridden the BSL (or BSS as you call it). I also have not seen the MFL motormen overrun the stations but I've only been on that line twice, too.
Thanks for your input and response to my post! Do you hail from the
Wash/ D.C. area? My son works at the University of Maryland and although he has his own car, he sometimes takes the "Green Line" into center D.C.
Chuck Greene
Yes, I do but am not going to say much more than that. It is a nice ride from College Park into DC and for the real railfan, there is a house next to the southbound Green Line track at the College Park Station. I'd like to live there and have a private mezzanine into the metro station.
Why do some have a black floor and some have the normal floor? EVERY CAR should come with black floors.
I'm happy to say that I had a part in that decision. Some time after they were delivered, several R-68A consists were trapped at 145th St. by a flash flood. Over the course of a few years, those cars showed extensive deterioration in the floor integrity. In 1995, it was decided that those cars should receive new floors. We opted for the R-110 type flooring because it was supposed to be more resilliant than the conventional car floor and showed less dirt. By using the R-110 prototype flooring material, we were also able to test the feasibility of using this material when other car floors are slated to be replaced beginning in mid 2000.
So, will all R68 cars have this back flooring installed? I hope so, as they cut down on the glare caused by all that shiny metal surfaces that exist on the R68 interior. They also do a better job at disguising dirt.
I remembered that after a bottle explosion inside the car of R62 1391 in late 1994, a black floor was also installed on R62 1391.
Chaohwa
Bottle explosion? What was in the bottle? NITROGLYCERIN
It wasn't the bottle that explosion in R62 #1391, it was a box carry inside the brown bag by crazy guy & it just went off.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
Wasn't that the car Edward Leary was in when he decided to firebomb a 4 train at Fulton St. in some insane attempt to extort the MTA?
I think that was also the car rear ended by a layup #2 train in the Wakefield accident resulting in a couple of R33 cars violating alternate side parking rules on the street below. What luck! And to think they would retire R46 #666 with no such luck at all.
1400 got kicked from behind as I recall, while 8981 wound up on top of a building, while 9152 and 53 were hanging between the structure and the street. Whatever happened to that motorman anyway and what was the official ruling on the incident if you don't mind saying?
There was a double whammy for 9154 and 55, and 1391 which were in this accident as well as 1391's firebombing incident, and 9154 and 55s accident during a slow collision at 96 St during the Lenox Rehab last July.
-Stef
The Motorman I hear was demoted to Station Agent and Last worked at a Booth along the No.1 Line but I better not tell what station. But its a Real shame the motorman was on the job 18 Years in title and had the regauler Station Swiching Job at 241 Street. The Lay up in Question was his last for the Night which turned into the last of his Motormans career.
Thats all I wish to comment on that.
Don't feel so bad. An employee with over ten years in title cannot be demoted to his former title with a loss in pay. He retains the train operators rate until his retirement. Which I understand isn't too far off. He was smart enough to have claimed to have blacked out, and with no recolection of the events leading to the accident. That's the only thing that saved him from getting fired.
Unfortunately that is also the main reason why hordes of train crew personel are being stripped of their handles and keys and put in token booths and security details for controllable occurances of blood sugar and blood pressure. Eyesight and hearing standards of the NYCTA are being compared to FAA standards according to the Staff reps resulting in people who could function in title to be removed from their positions, soime of whom will not be eligible because of seniority to get their top rate of pay in the reclassified title. "No Work Available" is the TA's latest weapon in the never ending contract battle.
Harry, speaking as one who has significant problems with blood pressure and some with blood sugar - both deemed "controllable" - I have to disagree with you. The public is NOT safe when someone with blood pressure problems and especially blood sugar problems is at the handle of a train. Even with proper medication it is far too easy to have a sudden change in sugar and/or pressure that could result in a momentary loss of cognitive function - in other words, the brain gets screwed up for a moment - and have a serious accident be the result. Be thankful that the people are given other jobs rather than simply being forced to retire on disability.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I saw a telecast after the accident and #1400's bonnet was all mussed up - did they have to replace the fiberglas end? #8980 was sitting cheek-to-cheek with #1400, a REALLY odd couple. #8981 was propped up on somebody's rooftop and #9152-9153, well, they were Roast Redbird.
What a messy accident!
Wayne
Yeah. As of press time, the R33 wrecks were still sitting in the yard. I figure as the new cars start to arrive, these wrecks could finally be towed to the scrap line in Brooklyn.
I couldn't tell if 1400's end was completely replaced. As far as I can see, 1400 and her companions received new anticlimbers. These cars must have been separated while they were in the shop since someone fooled around with the roll signs. You'll always know which set is which because of the fact the Leary's Car, 1391 now has a black floor, and that the cars in between the 5 car sets have roll signs set all kind of ways (They should be set to 4 even in between cars cars 1391-95 and 1396-1400, but this is not the case for some reason).
-Stef
Are there any photos of the accident posted somewhere on the web? If so, someone lead me to them....I only heard snippets of what happened out there on this site.
Check the accidents list under the NYC Subway Roster Page. Our respected Web Site Host took pictures of the cars during a Lo-V Fan Trip on 9/27/98.
-Stef
Gonzo, you can also go through the Subway FAQ page to get to the Accidents List, probably the quickest way.
Cheers,
Stef
Back in the good old days, some of my flock referred to car #666 as my personal car (a tribute to their perception of my supervisory style back then). Prior to overhaul by MK, that car was out of service for propulsion related problems several times per month. However, overhaul gave it a new lease on life much as re-numbering gave it a more anonymous identity. There is a pix of car #666 in the R-46 section of the "illustrated fleet roster".
Speaking of which, do you remember a Train Trouble report of that car in the conductor's position where a child's hand got pinched in the fingerguards of one of the door panels? I think it was at 169 Street. It was major at first because Control Center classified it as a dragging although the child was on the inside of the car. Just curious if there are any witnesses that have to be "taken care of". :+)
R46 #666 is now living its second life as #5820.
By the way, over at PATH, there is still a #666, no it does not have horns protruding from the corners of the roof. Its interior plaque honors the Borough of Cranbury.
Wayne
Yes, but if the New Jersey Devils ever do move to than new arena in Hoboken, car 666 should be at the front of one of the trains going there the first night they play.
But there are those who say I do! And for those who believe in such superstitious nonsense, many years ago my license plate - regular series, this was back in the days before vanity plates - was DEV-666.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How long did you have those plates?
About a year and a half. They were on a '74 Fury (ex-police interceptor) and when I sold that were transferred to a '74 Valiant which met its end underneath a truckload of furniture (long story). Since we were about to move out of state we didn't replace the car, just surrendered the plates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was the 'fruitloop' from New jersey who tried to Firebomb the IRT and set himself on fire!
I LIKE a Black Floor R68A. That's a classy-looking subway car there. I've seen them in #5057, #5059, #5123, #5122 among others. If all of the survivors of the Morningside Heights Flood got Black Floors, then #5054 and #5111 should have them too. (You should have seen the picture in the paper of #5111 - submerged at 125th Street station up to just below the window-line, taken from a stairway) Whenever I get a Black Floor R68A, I enjoy the ride a little bit more than on an ordinary-floor R68A. I wish they ALL had them.
Wayne
For anyone interested in the beginning history of the Pelham Bay IRT 1916 extension, it is suggested you check out eBay Item #215234170.
Uptown 6 going express from GC to 125 due to police activity. Please post info on Subtalk..........
3TM
Junction Blvd. Connection to the Q72. Little Neck Pkwy bound G. The next stop will be 101St. Connection to the Q23. Stand Clear.....
You can see the steel frame of the Manhattan Beach terminal water tower. It rises fairly high above a garage at 2776 E 14 St right off Neptune Av. It must have quenched the thirst of many a G5 and Camelback in the days.
12/07/99
Bob D,
Did the G-5S's really go to Manhattan Beach? I never saw any photos of locomotives or coaches that served that line.
Bill Newkirk
The Manhattan Beach Div never was electrified, there are some pictures around clearly showing steam engines working the line. One of Seyfried's books shows it, and I think again in one of Brian Merlis's books. There is also an old booklet ca 1947 or so, about the Bayridge line that shows it. I think it also shows up in "Old Brooklyn in Early Photographs" too.
As for the G5's, the Manhattan Beach line ran until 1923, as far as I know, the older types of locomotives were already retired, like the Camelbacks and 4-4-0's, so I think its safe to surmise that g5's were used in the lines last days.
The Manhattan Beach branch was kinda sorta electrified, but not for the LIRR. It had electric into Manhattan Beach for BRT trains for a time, and it had trolley wire on the main part of the line for the Brighton shoo-fly in the "aughts."
But then when it was placed on the joint embankment, it went right back to steam.
BTW, all Bob D's pictures which he has shared so generously are "up" and linked and can be accessed at the BGCEC Book Catalog Page. Check out view "E1," one of my personal favorites--two Ls and surface trackage!
There are still Bob's great (if slightly bulky) route/elevation maps to come.
FWIW, my holiday card is on the rapidtransit.net home page. Click on it for an enlargement.
And to all, we have many holiday traditions going on this month, best wishes for each and every combination we celebrate!
Bob, that's very interesting. I'll have to check that out.
If there are anymore tidbits on the Manhattan Beach Branch, keep 'em coming!
Doug aka BMTman
For everything you wanted to know about the Bayridge line or the Manhattan Beach Div, tune to www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/raw/
Thanks to Paul Matus for setting it all up.
All I can say to Paul Matus and Bob Diamond is "THANK YOU" for an early, wonderful Christmas present. Those photos on rapidtransit.com
are nothing short of breathtaking---thanks again for a wonderful experience.
Sorry about the screwup on that earlier post---to repeat---to Paul Matus and Bob Diamond---those photos on rapidtransit.com are absolutely breathtaking---THANK YOU!!! for a wonderful experience and an early Christmas gift.
YOUR WELCOME!!!
The BGCEC book that Bob Diamond is sharing with us is a rare item--I don't think there are a whole lot of them in private hands.
It was very generous of him to share it with us so we can all enjoy it.
As a Brooklyn transit enthusiast I agree 100% with Paul. As we inch closer to the 21st Century (a few weeks away now), there will be less and less opportunities as the years go by for rail historians (and others) to acquire and share such documents as time plays a deadly toll on paper products as we are all to familiar with.
Thusly, a tip of the hat to Bob D. for the documents and two thumbs up to Paul for putting the images up on his website.
Doug
I'm asking this for a friend who has been having a lot of grief with the modem on his Imac and his ISP Blazenet.
Is anyone here know of any problems that are associated with an Imac and Blazenet? Your help will be greatly appreciated by our fellow SubTalker.
I don't do Fruit!
The more I think about it, the more using a subway train as a moblie bar makes sence. First of all you don't need to worry about desiginated drivers or drunk driving. Second, the interiors are easly hosed out after each use. An attendant could check ID and take the cover at the door. The condustor could double as a DJ. You could rip out the flouressant lighting and replace them with muti-coloured light, strobes and a disco ball. Also in things got out of hand the T/O or Conductor could lock down the doors and activate the riot supression systems that would fill the cars with tear gas and pepper spray. The the train pulls into a station filled with waiting police to remove the "bad apples". Further more you could be able to lock down indivudual cars so if a fight breaks out in one, the party can continue in the others. I mean the MTA could make a ton of money with this idea. The PARTY TRAIN would ride around the system in a big loop. It would pick up people who would ride it for a couple of loops and they would get off where they started, where they could then stagger home. I mean even if they did it just for New Years, its still a great idea. They could run it from like every 8PM-3AM FRI and SAT. I can envision the add campaign now. "MTA PARTY TRAIN: Where will you be when it stops?" or "MTA PARTY TRAIN: CATCH IT!" They could even pull some of those 70's grafitti artists out of retirement to give the cars an "exciting" paint job. Come on guys, what do you think about it?
Dancing an not falling down could be tricky - even at the normal super-slow speeds, the ride is not the smoothest. Padded walls and a thick rubber floor would do the trick, though. Padded walls could contribute to the atmosphere, too. Velvet, maybe?
Heck, I'd ride it!
It'd never happen, but it sure is fun to think about...
Padded wall, eh? Perhaps our friend heypaul could offer some advice there ... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Padded walls??
They're coming to take me away, ha ha, hehe, ho ho....
[Padded walls??
They're coming to take me away, ha ha, hehe, ho ho....]
Sarge, what group did that song? Perhaps Ian Dury & the Blockheads?
To be honest with you I have no idea!!
12/09/99
Watch out !! Bill Newkirk is a record collector !!!!
"They're coming to to take me away,Ha-Haaa!"
by Napoleon XIV debuted July 30,1966 on Warner Bros. records #5831
Reached #3 on the charts, charted for 5 weeks.
I WARNED YOU !!!
Bill Newkirk
You must be a CBS-FM 101.1 fan!!!
12/10/99
[You must be a CBS-FM 101.1 fan !!!]
Jeff,
CBS 101.1 and B-103 out here on the Island.
Another fact of Napoleon XIV , his real name is Jerry Samuels, a recording engineer and composer from , where else , New York!!
Bill Newkirk
Did you ever play the B side of that one
"Aaaah Ah, Yawa Em Ekat Ot Gnimoc Er'yeht"
The same song, just recorded backwards. Hilarious.
Wayne
Not to mention a Dr Demento fan! Speaking of which does ANYONE know where the good Dr is around here?
Thanks!
Ian Dury and the Blockheads were best remembered for their infamous 1979 smash "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick" (Stiff/Epic records; 3:40) and the follow-up "Reasons To Be Cheerful-Part III". Pretty strange stuff, those blokes. I can just see a video re-make of that one, with a trainload of rush-hour sardines dancing and moshing about and whacking each other with plastic rods. OUCH!
Wayne
Dancing an not falling down could be tricky - even at the normal super-slow speeds, the ride is not the smoothest. Padded walls and a thick rubber floor would do the trick, though. Padded walls could contribute to the atmosphere, too. Velvet, maybe?
Padded walls, men in white coats, and make the last stop Bellevue.
No, after all that drinking, the last stop should be 18th St on the Lex (or 91st St on the Broadway IRT). If you think you were disoriented when you got off the train, just wait and see the reaction of people once the train LEFT 18th St ....
--Mark
No, after all that drinking, the last stop should be 18th St on the Lex (or 91st St on the Broadway IRT). If you think you were disoriented when you got off the train, just wait and see the reaction of people once the train LEFT 18th St ....
Why not just have another Disco and more beer and more music at these stations. The colored disco lights could be shining on the multi-colored graffiti. When they've had enough, another partytrain could pick them up at the station.
12/08/99
Mark,
The real problem wouldn't be the alcohol but how to exit to the street !!
BTW - Get the tape yet?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, got the tape, am about 1/2 of the way through it. Very interesting ... some of the news sounds so "old" compared to what you hear on the radio today (the way it's reported, not the subject matter).
Many thanks again!
--Mark
Who'd need to dance? Just stand still and let the train move you. I get a chuckle thinking about using the condustors as DJ's. In addition to controling the doors they would have complete control over the music and the mood lighting. With your cover you would have access to the central beer system utilizing kegs under the train and taps in the interior and other drinks would be available at a mini-bar for those who wanted to pay for them. Another thing that makes trains perfect for parties is their modular nature. Each seperate car could have its own theme with different drinks and different music. If it got popular enough you could make reservations at any token booth and if you think the PT its self would make $$ just think about how much they could pull in from the Merchandising. I'm sure anybody can think of a great idea for a PT T-shirt in under 10 seconds.
Now wait a sec...themed trains would be rather nice, or at the very least, attractive lighting on the trains would be great. The fluorescents are so harsh and blindingly bright at nighttime.
Is there a subway version of the airline's "Mile High Club"???
Is there a subway version of the airline's "Mile High Club"???
If there is, I have a freind who actually had the unfortunate experience of realizing late at night while riding SEPTA that the couple at the other end of the car was, um... joining that 'club'...
12/07/99
This idea of a Party Train sounds like an updated version of the "Mineola". But it definiteley has the trappings of a SubTalk special!
Bill Newkirk
Has anyone else seen this? I just saw it last night. It was almost exactly what was discussed here. I almost wonder if one of CDNOW's Ad Execs is a SubTalk reader??
12/15/99
No, I haven't seen this commercial yet, but I'll watch out. NYC PARTY TRAIN!!, now he know what to do with those R-110's !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey....(hic),i'll drink (hic) to that...(hic) when do we (hic) start this ? (hic).....
I saw it too -- I WANT ROYALTIES!!!!
'though I can't remember if I saw any beer taps or not.
While the nation mourns the 58th anniversary of the bombing of pearl harbour, some of are fellow subtalkers (possibly), along with politician Carolyn Mccarthy will be remembering another painful anniversary.
It was December 7, 1993 when gunman Colin Ferguson was on a pm rush LIRR commuter train, when he took out a gun and started shooting at random people. This incident wounded at least 17 people, some not surviving. In addition to this being a major transit tragedy, the trial got lots of attention because ferguson was his own lawyer in his trial. This meant he was questioning the witnesses that he shot. It was a painful trial, thank goodness he is in jail. -Nick
I've wondered whether, a couple of decades from now, Colin Ferguson might walk out of prison. Maybe even get a musical, like Paul Simon did for the "Capeman."
If you think it's impossible, even Sirhan Sirhan gets parole hearings ever few years. I wonder if Charles Manson does?
Yes on Manson, but the California Parole Board turns him down every time. He pulls his psychotic behavior act on them all the time. He probably knows he's never getting out but enjoys giving the media a show. While I'm in favor of cameras in the courtrooms, Manson is a good example for opponents of cameras to site.
Anyone in Calif who has a life sentence gets a Parole hearing every 2-3 years, after their first one. It depends on how soon after the initial incarceration date is when they get one. could be anywhere from 7 years minimun and up, depending when they were sentenced since the laws change so many times
Manson does get parole hearings, but he knows he not likely to ever be released. Last time around he said he didn't even want to bother trying, he was too busy working on his web site!
Sirhan Sirhan, like several other people convicted of high-profile assasinations, probably deserves to get a new trial, but that doesn't seem too likley either.
Rest in Peace, the Merillon Ave 6.
Perhaps LIRR train 1250 can sound its horn tonight as it passes by Merillon Avenue in rememberance
Let's get it straight. Furgeson wasn't shooting at "random" people. He was shooting at white people. He was targeting white people. He killed only white people.
[Let's get it straight. Furgeson wasn't shooting at "random" people. He was shooting at white people. He was targeting white people. He killed only white people.]
IIRC one of the six fatalities was an Asian female. My guess is that Ferguson may have intended to target only whites, but once he started pulling the trigger he wasn't too concerned about who actually got shot.
Getting back from Colin Ferguson to Pearl Harbor, there was a show on Japanese atrocities against POW's the other day on the History Channel that was very chilling. It was alot more than just the Bataan Death March. About 25% of Allied Prisoners of the Japanese died in captivity, with forced labor and medical experiments. According to the show Japan has never officially acknowleged it either and is in extreme denial. Think about that when you get into your Nissans, Toyotas, Honda cars & Bikes, and Kawasaki bikes and subways!!
Think about this: in exchange for not prosecuting the doctors who ran the experiments, the Japanese agreed to give the Americans all their research into biological weapons shortly after the surrender in 1945. Most of the "expreiments" done by these Japanse doctors would make Nazi war crimes look laughable in comparison. We are not totally innocent in these things...
I don't know about the experiments the Japanese conducted during WWII, but there was a big ethical debate about whether scientific information that Nazi "doctors" gained from their work could be used or not, considering its source.
I don't recall how this played out, but I would be surprised if any such knowledge was a very good bargaining chip for any of the perpetrators.
OTOH, if you were Werner von Braun, it was somehow overlooked that you "aimed for the stars" but hit London.
I was recently listening to a show on NPR in which they said that, grotesquely, the Brits didn't want to acknowledge Einstein's work on relativity (for which the Brits apparently provided the first proof) because, while Einstein was still in Germany, he was regarded as an "enemy scientist."
Isn't politics wonderful?
Einstein Got out of Germany, a few years before the War began in 36-37. The war began On 9/1/39
Just think if Einstein had stayed in Germany and wasn't persecuted, and Enrico Fermi, who split the atom, stayed in Italy. Do you think things might have been different? Thank God they didn't.
But could Hitler have come to power with out using the Jews as scapegoats and uniting Germany in their hatred?
Probably yes. Hitler was almost guaranteed an audience of angry Germans when Clemenceau, Orlando and George at Versailles put together a treaty that was loaded with revenge. The folly of the victors.
Chris: After MacArthur made sure Generals Yamashita and Homma were tried and executed in the Philippines in 1946, and that the top 15 Japanese civilian and military leaders were tried in Tokyo between 1946-1948, he went real easy on many other war criminals. We tried and executed far more German Nazis than Japanese Fascists, which should help shut u p those who might say there was racism involved with our dropping of two A-Bombs on Japan. They weren't ready or tested by the time the Krauts gave up. We would have dropped them on Germany if he had them and needed to. As for Colin Ferguson, have you ever heard of white trash? Well, he's black trash. Nothing more than a rotten, good for nothing, prejudiced bigot. He's not even worth mentioning
No, he targeted only white people. If an asian female was shot, then she must have gotten in the way. Furgeson has stated that he wanted to kill white people only.
To a racist, an Asian person can be whatever you want him/her to be.
To a white racist, an Asian looks sufficiently foreign.
To a black racist like Ferguson, an Asian looks quite white enough.
The point is, though, that a person of any color racist enough to injure another is not playing with a full deck, so rational analysis of motives lacks something.
i just shoot RAILFAN VIDIEOS Q E A 2 5 7 not people!!!
so get mad because thats all i shoot nyc subway cars etc!!!
Yep, He started shooting because "the 2 train was always late".......
3TM. 101St. Connection to the Q23. The next station will be 108St. Transfer to the Q48. Stand Clear........
12/08/99
Colin Ferguson goes down in history as the only passenger to get car numbers changed.
Because of the massacre: LIRR M-3....was 9891-92.....now 9945-46.
9892 was the car it all happened in.
Bill Newkirk
This is a silly question, I know, but I'm curious, with the R142 order about to recycle R16 unit numbers - are unit numbers which are involved in accidents that result in fatalities "retired" by NYCT? If so, then would #6304 qualify for such treatment, and the first R142 "bunch" go 6300-01-02-03-05?
As I remember, R40M #4461, under repair, is to get a new number - #4260.
Wayne
It is not a silly question. My guess is that they would not leave out a car number because of a customer fatality--- instead they might put a black sticker under the car number, perhaps in the shape of a cross.
It is not a silly question. My guess is that they would not leave out a car number because of a customer fatality--- instead they might put a black sticker under the car number, perhaps in the shape of a cross.
I don't think Wayne was talking about human fatalities on board a subway car. I think he was talking about a car getting totaled in a wreck.
Or getting punched out by a BMT standard...
Or getting punched out by a BMT standard...
Or getting "punched out" by the World's Heavyweight Champion - The D-Type!
I wouldn't want my money on the D-Types on a bout between them and BMT Standards - the Standards were tougher than just about anything else that ever ran. NOTHING could topple a train of them. Just ask R27 #8217.
Wayne
I wouldn't want my money on the D-Types on a bout between them and BMT Standards - the Standards were tougher than just about anything else that ever ran. NOTHING could topple a train of them. Just ask R27 #8217.
Wayne
The R-27 is a flimsy tin can, similar to the R-16. Did you ever see a photo of the GG wreck at Roosevelt Ave. in 1970? That was an R-16. TIN CAN! The D-Types were the heaviest cars in the BMT fleet. Believe me, I'm not putting down the A/B's. Its just the facts.
12/08/99
R-27/30's TIN CANS ? Then how does that compare with the stainles
steel fleet ?
Bill Newkirk
12/08/99
R-27/30's TIN CANS ? Then how does that compare with the stainles
steel fleet ?
Bill Newkirk
Beer Cans!
Nothing is as solid as the pre-war cars were.
Yes, I saw photos from several angles, plus the one taken at Jamaica Yard of R16 #6304 after her disembowelment. One of my previous posts (Comparing Two Accidents, or something to that effect) describes my own observations of the damage done to that car. A concrete curtain wall can mangle LAHT or Carbon Steel but to stainless steel - it's even worse. Examples of this effect include #1437, #1439, #1440, and #5282. Also - R10 #3333 suffered a similar fate.
If you REALLY want to talk about tin cans, just look at the LIRR's M-1 and M-3 cars. No resistance whatsoever to side impact, i.e. Original M-1 #9332 and mostly Original M-1 #9625.
I did see a picture of D Types #6045B and #6045C and I believe #6078A, after they mixed it up near Coney Island a long long time ago. They doubtless could only defeat each other. Don't think there was ever really a "Clash Of The Titans", i.e. an accident involving AB Type BMT Standards and D Type Triplexes.
Wayne
Yes, I saw photos from several angles, plus the one taken at Jamaica Yard of R16 #6304 after her disembowelment. One of my previous posts (Comparing Two Accidents, or something to that effect) describes my own observations of the damage done to that car. A concrete curtain wall can mangle LAHT or Carbon Steel but to stainless steel - it's even worse. Examples of this effect include #1437, #1439, #1440, and #5282. Also - R10 #3333 suffered a similar fate.
If you REALLY want to talk about tin cans, just look at the LIRR's M-1 and M-3 cars. No resistance whatsoever to side impact, i.e. Original M-1 #9332 and mostly Original M-1 #9625.
I did see a picture of D Types #6045B and #6045C and I believe #6078A, after they mixed it up near Coney Island a long long time ago. They doubtless could only defeat each other. Don't think there was ever really a "Clash Of The Titans", i.e. an accident involving AB Type BMT Standards and D Type Triplexes.
Wayne
I refer to stainless steel equipment as beer cans. A guy by the name of Miles Dixon used to say that the R-44's were made of bubble gum and Reynolds Wrap. I don't think that any post war equipment could stand up to any pre-war (steel) equipment. A Lo-V would mash a redbird, a D-Type or an A/B would mash an R-16 or 27. I think an R-1/9 would mash an R-16 or 27. I don't even want to get into the stainless steel equipment. Especially the ones with the fiberglass fronts (sorry, Mr. Slant R-40). The R-32's may be like a cat with 9 lives operationally, but I'd hate to see the aftermath of one in a wreck.
No, I meant customer/employee fatalities. Some wrecks are just that - wrecks - I wouldn't hang #5282's number up even though it was a gruesome accident. Nobody was killed there. #1437, #1440, #6304, #4461, the R21 from the Utica Avenue #2 line accident of 1981, and the like is what I meant.
Wayne
Wayne: I have never heard of this being done. I doubt if anyone would remember the particular car number unless they had a personal reason to do so. Also this was cause confusion down the line having say a 200 car order numbered 6300 to 6403.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wayne: I have never heard of this being done. I doubt if anyone would remember the particular car number unless they had a personal reason to do so. Also this was cause confusion down the line having say a 200 car order numbered 6300 to 6403.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah. It doesn't make any sense to retire a car number just because somebody died on board. After all, this isn't baseball. The Yankees have so many retired numbers, that's why most of today's players have such high numbers. In baseball, they give honor to a great player by retiring his number. Nobody knows the average Joe who died in a subway car. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the BRT changed the car numbers of the cars that survived the Malbone St. wreck. They were just put back into service.
As soon as the BRT got the Malbone Wreck cars in the shop, they were estimating the cost of repairs. The only one they counted as a total loss was Car 100. They actually estimated a repair cost (labor, materials) for Car 80--the one which was sheared in half diagonally, but obviously thought better of it later, since the car was simply scrapped.
AFAIK, the BRT/BMT didn't ever have another car 80 or 100, but that's not so remarkable--they went to all 4-digit numbering for new equipment anyway.
People don't pay so much attention to "hoodoo" names/numbers as they used to. Boston actually passed an ordinance that the name "Cocoanut Grove" could not be applied to a business after the fire disaster there. And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic" or "Morro Castle."
Nor will they name soup "Bon Vivant."
OTOH, no one worries about going to the MGM Grand Hotel or using Tylenol.
[People don't pay so much attention to "hoodoo" names/numbers as they used to. Boston actually passed an ordinance that the name "Cocoanut Grove" could not be applied to a business after the fire disaster there. And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic" or "Morro Castle."]
On the other hand, there's a Lusitania Savings Bank in Newark.
> And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic"
And, someone's building a replica Titanic. Why build a replica for the purpose of attracting the curious and NOT name it Titanic?
-Dave
I've always wanted to open a motel and call it "Bates Motel" with a big sign that says "take a shower here"
A shower in every room and every desk clerk is named "Norman" Great idea. Dial M
And, someone's building a replica Titanic. Why build a replica for the purpose of attracting the curious and NOT name it Titanic?
-Dave
Yeah! Right?
I wonder is there is another Triangle Shirt Company out there somewhere.
[People don't pay so much attention to "hoodoo" names/numbers as they used to. Boston actually passed an ordinance that the name "Cocoanut Grove" could not be applied to a business after the fire disaster there. And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic" or "Morro Castle."]
On the other hand, there's a Lusitania Savings Bank in Newark.
There is an old neighborhood of rich homes in the Miami area named Cocoanut Grove. Fact is, it is a separate municipality from Miami. I don't see them changing the name from Cocoanut Grove to something else. hey, they didn't change the name of Pearl Harbor either. The Japanese didn't change the names of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either.
As soon as the BRT got the Malbone Wreck cars in the shop, they were estimating the cost of repairs. The only one they counted as a total loss was Car 100. They actually estimated a repair cost (labor, materials) for Car 80--the one which was sheared in half diagonally, but obviously thought better of it later, since the car was simply scrapped.
AFAIK, the BRT/BMT didn't ever have another car 80 or 100, but that's not so remarkable--they went to all 4-digit numbering for new equipment anyway.
The BRT/BMT didn't recycle any numbers because they didn't replace anything. They kept ordering new equipment for expansion. If you notice, the number series used for the BU's was the same number series used for the IRT el cars, and also for the IND's R-1/9's--typically starting with 100. The IRT and BRT did have some double-digit cars, like #80 that you mentioned. When the IND was built, they didn't say "we can't use #100 because that was the infamous Malbone wreck car". No, 100 was the first R-1, which became a museum car. My point is that the idea of retiring car numbers because of a death or deaths, or because of some wreck, or some unpleasant incident is absurd. I can fully understand not building another Challanger shuttle, but for subway cars?
If you notice, the number series used for the BU's was the same number series used for the IRT el cars, and also for the IND's R-1/9's--typically starting with 100.
Of course. These were separate companies. Even within the same company there was a lot of number overlap for different kinds of equipment. Noone thought it a problem to have two answers to the question: what is BMT #7? (answer: an L trailer and a trolley locomotive). Or what is #1001 (c.1938)? (a convertible L motor, a PCC trolley and an electric bus).
Even now, the only reason you couldn't have a BMT-IND subway car 1000 and an IRT 1000 is that it might louse up the TA's equipment database.
Even now, the only reason you couldn't have a BMT-IND subway car 1000 and an IRT 1000 is that it might louse up the TA's equipment database.
Yeah! Back in the old days of the BMT, IRT and IND as separate entities, they didn't have any 'puters.
You are correct. There were R-4 #726 and #728, as well as R46 #726 and #728.
Wayne
They may not have retired the car numbers in the Malbone wreck, but they did retire the Malbone name, save for a short half-block stretch west of New York Avenue. It does seem like Empire Boulevard is a much more appropriate same for such a major thoroughfare.
After Pan Am Flight 103 was destroyed over Lockerbie, the airline changed the flight number slightly, I think to Flight 3 or 03.
As a politically correct sidenote, the NBA changed Washington D.C.'s team name from the Bullets to the Wizards. Saint John's team was changed from the Red Devils to the Red Storm. It's probably only a matter of time before all teams with variations of native American names are changed. Ready for the Washington Fillibusters, Atlanta Techies and Cleveland Laid-off Steelworkers?
As a politically correct sidenote, the NBA changed Washington D.C.'s team name from the Bullets to the Wizards. Saint John's team was changed from the Red Devils to the Red Storm. It's probably only a matter of time before all teams with variations of native American names are changed. Ready for the Washington Fillibusters, Atlanta Techies and Cleveland Laid-off Steelworkers?
When that happens, I'm through with sports.
12/12/99
Mr.Fein,
I believe the St.Johns team was called the "Red Men" before change to the "Red Storm". Something of a slant against Native Americas was the cause for name change.
Bill Newkirk
I believe the St.Johns team was called the "Red Men" before change to the "Red Storm". Something of a slant against Native Americas was the cause for name change.
In that case, the Atlants Braves and Cleveland Indians need to change their names. I'd be for anything to get rid of the Atlanta tomahawk chop. That is so annoying!
I believe the St.Johns team was called the "Red Men" before change to the "Red Storm". Something of a slant against Native Americas was the cause for name change.
In that case, the Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians need to change their names. I'd be for anything to get rid of the Atlanta tomahawk chop. That is so annoying!
2 line accident at Utica? Please elaborate..........
3TM
Shea Stadium. The next station will be Main St. Transfer and connection to the Q14,Q16,Q20a,Q20b,Q25,Q34,Q44,Q65,Q66, and QBx1.
Good question. I would say no. The R142s are an entirely different breed of animal. They have nothing to do with the accident that 6304 had with 4501 some years ago. Do you consider the accident at Roosevelt to be more severe than what had occurred at the Willy B? I'm just curious.
Every time you had an accident and car numbers had to be retired, I'd think we'd have a serious problem. R142s are arranged into 5 car sets simply for the logistics of arranging cars. Of course, if there's an R142 involved in an accident (always a possibility), a car number might be retired depending on whether or not the car would be repaired and put on the road. For all we know, two cars could be spliced together and make a new car (remember 6494 and 8217?). There are numerous R40s and R42s missing in action, so retiring a number wouldn't be a big deal. Retiring 4461's number came because the car was fitted with a slant nose. The folks at Coney Island have the right idea. Even if the car remained a modified unit, it's possible they could have retired the number anyway (my understanding at least, since the personnel associated the car with the accident). I certainly would have considering the fact that one of NYCT's own operating personnel was crushed in the cab. That enough for most to totally forget about a horrendous incident as that. Given the opportunity to forget, those affected by the accident would be able to forget by retiring a number. No R40 Mod has ever had a slant nose. She's undergoing a sex change and becoming a he. I've never heard of a car with a generator having an odd number in a married pair.
They don't necessarily have to retire the number, but it's always a possibility depending on the situation in question (it's a not a standard practice, I don't think). If that were the case, then I would have retired 1391's number (firebombing incident), or even 3221 (the Mad bomber incident on the R10).
In summary, the opportunity arose to retire 4461's number arose, and it was taken.
-Stef
I would rank the R16 vs. R40M accident at Roosevelt Avenue as at least as severe as the Williamsburgh Bridge accident, if not more so, judging by the amount of damage to R16 #6304. The damage to R40M #4501 was not as severe as either of the two cars involved in the Williamsburgh Bridge accident (R42 #4664; R40M #4461) but it was substantial enough to put the unit out of action for well over a year. The damage to R16 #6304 surpassed that of R42 #4664. Forty feet of the left side of the car shorn away, roof and ceiling down, floor ripped up, half the front end obliterated - a total wreck. #4664 had seven feet of true telescoping plus an additional ten feet of buckling/floor damage/frame damage. Photos taken after the wreck inside this car show it substantially intact forward of the #1/#8 doors. Similar body damage occurred to R40M #4461 but the anticlimber absorbed the impact and spared the frame proper.
I'd have to sum it up by saying the Roosevelt Avenue incident was worse in terms of damage and casualties. The Union Square incident of 1991 tops them all (excluding Malbone Street) except the Times Square Lo-V crash of 1928.
Wayne
I would be inclined to give that a flat "no," at least insofar as new car orders being purchased in the same number series.
Number superstition in general didn't stop NYC systems from having cars numbered "666" or "1313". The City had no problem having new cars numbered "100", the deadliest car in Malbone Street.
The LIRR did renumber the refurbished car pair from the Colin Ferguson murders, to the top of the number series. That may have been more because the operating personnel remember rather than the passengers. OTOH, they didn't change the starting time of the fatal train until years later. It's now the 6:35p Penn-Hicksville, instead of the 6:33. In fact, both the RR and psychologists were encouraging people to ride the fatal train the very next day--kind of like getting back on a horse after you fell, I guess.
But there is one number anamoly I wonder about--the LIRR has no train 1. Train 1 would have been a Montauk train, and I've wondered for years why there is a train 2 and a train 3, but no #1. Even going back to my 1928 LIRR table there is no train 1.
I thought there may have been a train 1 which was discontinued, and they left the number open in case they wanted to run a really early train again, but a few years ago they shifted the number system around, so that now Babylon electrics use the lowest number series--and there is still a train 2 but no train 1.
Does anyone know if this is superstition or if there's a material explantion?
The LIRR isn't the only one to do this. It avoids confusion in the passenger's mind - 28/29 for the westbound/eastbound rather than 29/30, for example - both start with 2 rather than one with a 2 and one with a 3. Even more so at 99/100 - the RR would rather use 98/99 or 100/101. And in order to do that for all paired passenger service, which in the old days was all of it, there was no train 1.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why reuse car numbers at all? Why not make the R-142 series start with, say, 10000? They're only car numbers, right? - unique identifiers for subway cars so items can be tracked for each car and so each car has its own identity?
Maybe car tracking software is limited to 4 digits?
--Marl
Why reuse car numbers at all? Why not make the R-142 series start with, say, 10000? They're only car numbers, right? - unique identifiers for subway cars so items can be tracked for each car and so each car has its own identity?
Maybe car tracking software is limited to 4 digits?
At the rate that the TA replaces rolling stock, it wouldn't be too long before we see car #1000000.
Which,of course,brings up the question of why the IND order started with 100 (of course the answer is that two digit #s were reserved for work equipment,right??)....
12/08/99
Yeah but the current 4 digit numbering scheme is a TA thing as of late. Remember the old R-44 and 46 numbers?
Bill Newkirk
I still hear about a possible NYCTA strike happening. While I really feel TA workers do deserve better, there are alot of poor working class (ie garment workers, servants) who depend on transit for their
money. Without getting to work, lots of people may starve.
For instance, what are all those low wage resteruant workers going to do if their N20/21 terminates at Great Neck and have to get to Flushing,Queens? Will the LIRR still run in Queens and into NYC, and will they still charge a packed train of low income workers full fare?
There are alot of people who will not have the choice of a car to get to work, and they must to feed their families with what little cash they earn. Just think of them before going on strike.
I can just imagine the strike result, forcing low wage workers to walk
up to 5 miles to work. All efforts must be made to prevent this from happening, by the MTA and the TA workers.
Last strike LIRR terminated at Jamacia so the brother and sisters of the same union did not have to cross picket lines.
did the Port Wash. line go into Penn during the last strike?
I don't think any train went into Penn during the strike. But one thing I'm certain of, no P.W. trains went into Flatbush!!!
The key statement applies to the MTA. The MTA first offered us 13.2% for a four year contract. The second offer was 9% over four years. The MTA is bargaining in BAD faith. Period. Any fallout over this strike you should direct to the overpaid members of the MTA board, the president and the governor of the state of NY. The contract as proposed will institute widespread privatization and a seriuos breach of the civil service as we know it today. There is a lot at stake, not just for us but for anyone desiring to get their foot into a good paying job with decent medical benefits. The Transport Worker's Union is under a lot of pressure because we are the first of the contracts to be signed and all the other city unions are waiting on us; we set the stage. We risk losing our jobs whether we sign on the dotted line or we walk. I already filed a resume with two other railroads. See you on the picket line.
There will be another transit rally on Wednesday starting at 3:30PM at 43rd and Madison. Help us avert a strike. If you can support your local cab drivers by tips for good service, please support us and your future employment prospectives by rallying with us. Also write your mayor, governor and congressmen and women that you recognize the importance of the men and women who operate, service and overhaul the rails, cars, and buses that carry you to your work and livelyhood. Tell TA management that YOU don't want a strike either. The fallout from a possible strike affects the citizens and workers of the City of NY with extreme financial difficulty but it barely affects top TA Brass. They will get paid because they are driven to work in limosines while still collecting their $150,000+ a year. Write Virgil Conman and Lawrence Looter that they should stop taking from the taxpayers and give back to the working class. If we get stuck with the current proposal, there will be one lessemployment opportunity for you, your family and future grandchildren in the city of New York. Say no to a bad contract! Say no to privatization!
I'm from out of town, so this is the first I've heard about this labor issue. When would a strike occur if there is one?
- Jim
when do the far rockway R38 TRAINS run all the way from 207TH STREET
thru the GRANT STATION all the way across BROAD CHANNEL and all the
way to the end of the line FAR ROCKWAY??
and how about this during sone ( daylight hours please)
please respond here or my E-MAIL salaamallah@yahoo.com THANK YOU!!
Try during the rush hours...
I believe there is a General Order during midday hours pertaining to the North Channel bridge. I think there is a shuttle from Howard Beach to Far Rockaway.Check the MTA site for details. When there is no G.O. in effect, You just have to take your chances and wait. I will tell you that I've seen R38s with Far Rock signs fairly recently.
I live right along the Far Rockaway el, so believe me, the R38s run everyday. But there is a GO on the Far Rockaway line during weekdays (9a - 3p) where all "A" trains run through to Lefferts Blvd. only. You would have to catch a shuttle from Rockaway Blvd.
Also, they tend to run majority R44s during the weekdays anyway. I have noticed that on Weekends they seem to run majority R38s so you might want to try weekends.
You must look out for GOs on the weekends too.
Two weeks ago, they were running shuttle bus service from Rockaway Blvd. to B. 98th St. Sta.
the perfect subway car is ANY SUBWAY CAR THAT HAS A RAILFAN SEE
DIRECTLY ANT THE FRONT TRACKS IN FRONT OF YOU RAIL FAN WINDOW!!
example R1 R4 thru R9 all the way even to an r38 REDBIRDS ETC...
some r 40 types GET BY but thats all !!!
anyway there it is RAIL FAN WINDOW or the subway car is USELESS!!
salaamallah@yahoo,com thank you !!!
SEPTA now has both "O" and "HO" scale models of their Comet II
(push-pull) commuter cars and AEM7 Locomotives for sale at the Transit
Museum Store. As for the HO scale AEM7's, they are only getting 40 of
those in, so anyone interested in one, you must put your name in to
reserve one. As of this past Friday, there were 20 names, including
mine on the reserve list. I did buy one O scale AEM7 and car early
last week. The guy at the store told me that they are hoping to have
models of the Market-Frankford Line M-3's (Almond Joys) by this time
next year. As for commuter trains, I'm hoping to someday see models
of the Silverliners made (Silverliner II's, III's, and IV's).
M3 models in HO scale? Cool!
Do you know who the manufacturer might be?
--Mark
I am looking for books on Commuter Rail Ops ,,there was book printed recently ,,I have this one
Buses
LRV
Subway
-------books available
?????
Steve
M-3 models? You're kidding?? Powered?
Back around 1984-1986, I remember seeing a series of Levi's 501 jeans
commercials that had scenes shot in New York City. One commercial
started out with a scene that showed several people walking down what
appeared to be stairs to an elevated station. The railings on these
stairs were very ornate, which did not look like the railings on NYC's
existing el stations, which now leads me to believe that the scene was
shot on either Metro North's 125th St. Station, or the stairways at
155th St. and 8th Ave. (that lead up to the Macombs Dam Bridge viaduct
and are now closed off). Does anyone here recall seeing this
commercial back in the 1980's? If so, can you tell me where this
stairway scene was shot? Was it in fact an el station??? The
commercial's jingle also had a rap beat to it ("Levi's 501 Blues"),
which I imagine was because of the breakdancing craze that was popular
at the time. Hope someone can help me with this, as I've been wanting
to know about this "el scene" ever since I first saw this commercial.
Back around 1984-1986, I remember seeing a series of Levi's 501 jeans
commercials that had scenes shot in New York City. One commercial
started out with a scene that showed several people walking down what
appeared to be stairs to an elevated station. The railings on these
stairs were very ornate, which did not look like the railings on NYC's
existing el stations, which now leads me to believe that the scene was
shot on either Metro North's 125th St. Station, or the stairways at
155th St. and 8th Ave. (that lead up to the Macombs Dam Bridge viaduct
and are now closed off). Does anyone here recall seeing this
commercial back in the 1980's? If so, can you tell me where this
stairway scene was shot? Was it in fact an el station??? The
commercial's jingle also had a rap beat to it ("Levi's 501 Blues"),
which I imagine was because of the breakdancing craze that was popular
at the time. Hope someone can help me with this, as I've been wanting
to know about this "el scene" ever since I first saw this commercial.
I don't remember the commercial, but there was an ornate stairway leading down from the original Fulton St. El structure at the Franklin Ave. station on the shuttle.
True, but the odds of this being a film site for a commercial in 1984/86 (height of the crack wars) is about impossible as you could get.
You are correct. The scenes were shot on the stairways to the McCombs Dam Bridge.
Wow. Thank the train gods! I just stumbled on this message board and have a few questions to air so please forgive me if some of these have been answered before. Here goes:
1. When will we see the R-142's in service?
2. How often and when do the R-110A/B usually operate for revenue service?
3. When will we see the new MU's for the LIRR by Bombardier (if I'm not mistaken) and why do they look exactly the same as current models? (picture in Railway Gazette)
4. This summer I worked for a TA and got to read cool mags like Metro, Metro Report, Railway Gazette, and others. How can an ordinary consumer gain access to these magazines?
5. Will express service ever run on the N,R lines? (some days I could really use it) When did the Q stop using those tracks?
6. Will we ever see a 2nd Ave subway line in New York
and finally I'm still waiting for my station by station description of atlanta's MARTA on nycsubway.org. I hope to especially see pics of their new Breda trains when they begin to arrive. Whew. If anyone can answer any of these questions for me I would be grateful. Thanks
M. Tolbert
> and finally I'm still waiting for my station by station description
> of atlanta's MARTA on nycsubway.org.
First I've heard of it-- did you send me such a guide? I don't recall receiving it.
-Dave
not much to it NO RAILFAN WINDOWS slow computer push button trains that brake and accelerate throwing you back and fourth like a yo yo
lon long long long long station waits service 6 am to 10 pm
cheap paper transit cards and you have to swipe them on the bus !!!
the trains nad buses are not coorindinated!!!!
weekend service with only two car trains even with crowds!!!!
after tyhe braves games no service after 11 pm turnstiles that eat your paper transcard then you are to blame!!! your car gets the denver boot even after you pay and you get no reciept proff of payment and
then they tow your car away from the parking lot after you paid!!
the martin luther king station and may others WITH NO BENCHES OR ANY
SEATS AT ALL!!
no stations up north on the georga 400 because those BIGOTS UP THERE
BELIEVE ALL TRAIN RIDERS ARE MINORITIES AND CRIME SPREADERS !! etc
and on and on i hated the MARTA TRASNSIT SYSTEM IN ATLANTA GLAD I DONT LIVE THERE ANY MORE GOOD RIDDANCE !!@!!
not much to it NO RAILFAN WINDOWS slow computer push button trains that brake and accelerate throwing you back and fourth like a yo yo
lon long long long long station waits service 6 am to 10 pm
cheap paper transit cards and you have to swipe them on the bus !!!
the trains nad buses are not coorindinated!!!!
weekend service with only two car trains even with crowds!!!!
after tyhe braves games no service after 11 pm turnstiles that eat your paper transcard then you are to blame!!! your car gets the denver boot even after you pay and you get no reciept proff of payment and
then they tow your car away from the parking lot after you paid!!
the martin luther king station and may others WITH NO BENCHES OR ANY
SEATS AT ALL!!
no stations up north on the georga 400 because those BIGOTS UP THERE
BELIEVE ALL TRAIN RIDERS ARE MINORITIES AND CRIME SPREADERS !! etc
and on and on i hated the MARTA TRASNSIT SYSTEM IN ATLANTA GLAD I DONT LIVE THERE ANY MORE GOOD RIDDANCE !!@!!
Some corrections are needed:
First: there IS service on GA 300. The line to Buckhead, Medical Center and Dunwoody run along 400! There is an extension due to open late 2000 to Sandy Springs and North Springs- both right at 400!
Second: Race- MARTA's service area is limited to Fulton and DeKalb Counties. There is some out of area service at a premium fare such as the Six Flags Bus service . I have some family in Marietta (CObb County).Cobb decided to form its own bus company (Cobb COunty Transit[CCT]- operated by ATE.) CCT goes into Atlanta- connects at Arts Center. There used to be service to Lindberg but that got canceled.
I have vacationed in Atlanta numerous times and have noted mixed racial ridership on MARTA. Why do we have to bring race into this board. While it is not NYC, they have grown and as a new system (Since the 1970s) they do have growing pains.
ps- I do not now or at any previous time have any employment relation with MARTA or CCT.
deny the bigots who say the undesirables that meens poor folks and
blacks etc.... paper cards not plastic ones the nioghtmares on the marta buses having to slide a paper transit cards in the rain
no seats or benches in the martin luther king station and many others
the denver boot being used on your car even after you paid!!
no proff of payment or reciept system at all!!@!!
and the limited time of service 9 to 5
two car trains after an hour wait on weekends even with packed stations!!
a computer controlled trains throwing you back and fourthj like a yo
yo!!! slow r68 hippo type cars NO RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!
long long long long long long waits at rail stations!!!
no coordinations with bus services !!! paper transit cards then
accuse the riders of operating counterfit cards when they fail!!
CAN I GO ON AND ON ??? GLAD I DONT LIVER THERE ANYMORE!!
Mike,
Welcome to SubTalk. You ask great questions. Questions so great, that our host Dave along with help from some of us has prepared a Frequently Asked Questions section of the site. But beware! Most of us don't work for NYCTA, and questions about future operations are mainly speculation. The good news is that when something really happens, you'll likely find out about it first here on SubTalk.
1. When will we see the R-142's in service?
The first R-142As arrived by ship last Thursday. Figure first revenue service 9 months to a year off.
2. How often and when do the R-110A/B usually operate for revenue service?
Not very often.
3. When will we see the new MU's for the LIRR by Bombardier (if I'm not mistaken) and why do they look exactly the same as current models? (picture in Railway Gazette)
???????????????
4. This summer I worked for a TA and got to read cool mags like Metro, Metro Report, Railway Gazette, and others. How can an ordinary consumer gain access to these magazines?
While those mags are usually free to managers in the trade, they do have regular subscription rates. Most also have on-line editions.
5. Will express service ever run on the N,R lines? (some days I could really use it) When did the Q stop using those tracks?
Yes it will return - maybe?
6. Will we ever see a 2nd Ave subway line in New York
Depends on how old you are and how much time you have to wait. I doubt if I'll se any more of the 2nd Ave subway than I already have.
Steve, you're too much the pessimist. We're about the same age (I'm probably a couple of years older than you are, but not much) and I expect to see at least the stubway open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve, you're too much the pessimist. We're about the same age (I'm probably a couple of years older than you are, but not much) and I expect to see at least the stubway open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, but we will probably be too old and feeble to ride it. We will probably see the opening on the news on TV from our beds in the nursing home.
Hey, the stubway will have to be ADA compliant, with wheelchair accessability though elevators, so we may be able to roll down there someday to take a peak at it.
I don't care if they have to wheel me down there on a gurney - I'll be there to photograph the new stations, IV's, no legs and all.
Speaking of no legs - has anyone seen Dolly Man lately? Wonder what ever became of him. He was the legless vet who used to roll on a four-wheeled dolly from car to car with his tin cup looking for donations. He was very good at it - I saw him roll right through the doors of an R38 whilst we were turning north from Fulton into Church Street (between Bway-Nassau and Chambers St-H&M) - many people did a double take (myself included) at the sight of him.
Wayne
Regarding question 6: If you believe what the MTA says, the "stubway" (63rd to 125th Street) will be finished "by 2015." (There doesn't seem to be any rush.) However, there will be crossovers built so that they could open to 86th Street earlier than that. (A sort of stub of a stub.)
Regarding question 5: This is still very tentative, but the "stubway" would continue south as a Broadway BMT express; possibly the R would be the new express. If that was done, there would be also be a new Broadway local to take over the service to 71st Street-Continental Ave. That's what the MTA's MESA study says, anyway.
during that span of time during 1998 when the 2 trains were reouted along the Lexington ave line (am -Pm directions) did it in any way help relieve any stress or overcrowding on the 4,5,and 6 lines or did it get in the way and actually delay the rest of the line? I always have known the Lex was way over crowded I was wondering since i completly avoided that area (unless it was nessesary)did it do good to add more trains or did it increase the slowing of them.
IIRC, they cut service on the 5 line corrosponding to the direction that rerouted 2 trains travelled up the East Side. As far as overcrowding went, it didn't seem to help. It did slow service, though,
I don't think anything will relieve the over crowding on the Lexington Ave line short of another line on the east side. Simple as that.
I remember that well working on the Pelham Line. Every morning My first trip out of Brooklyn Bridge I would beat at least 6 Express trains from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central. The Express service was moving very slowly on yellow signals when I was pasing one by one on the Local. On the radio the crews where complaining why there was no reroutes to the Local. Control even got into the act. They wanted Grand Central tower to reroute up the Local since there was a solid red line from Fulton St to 125 Street on 3 TK. Grand Central said they would not reroute because they didn't want to mess with the Local fearing it would jam up two tracks instead of one. I didn't mind because I was rolling free on greens so I was glad no reroutes where put ahead of me. On the PM Side it was alittle better going Downtown. One thing I can say TA payed a lot of late clears for the crews on the 2,4,5 Lines. On the WestSide I was told that the No.1 Trains were held up between 96 Street and 137 Street because on the No.3 Trains.
All I can say is I'm glad thats past us !
The situation you described at 96th St. used to be commonplace back in the days when both West Side branches had local and express trains.
Yes the 96 Street Bottle neck.
Do you think that the Laguardia Station on the N line, when it's built, will be open 24 hours?
I would rather say "if" it's built. I wouldn't hold my breath, especially if Peter Vallone becomes mayor.
ACtually, Vallone's electon as mayor would help this project. Vallone would no longer have to deal with a narrow interest, and it's in the city's interest as a whole to build this extension. And Astoria wouldn't have the unfair powerful representation it has today. Thank god for term limits.
Vallone would probably still favor his Astoria buds, and push instead for a spur off the 7 from 111th St. along the Grand Central to LaGuardia (never mind that the line is already jammed when it leaves Main Street)
That idea would do nothing for travel to Manhattan. It looks like it would be a spur from Main Street to the Airport and passangers would first go to Main Street and then get a #7 to Manhattan. That wouldn't be worth the cost of building the line. Extending the N line and have the train run express down the center to Queensboro Plaza is a better idea.
I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything to happen.
[That idea would do nothing for travel to Manhattan. It looks like it would be a spur from Main Street to the Airport and passangers would first go to Main Street and then get a #7 to Manhattan. That wouldn't be worth the cost of building the line. Extending the N line and have the train run express down the center to Queensboro Plaza is a better idea.
I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything to happen.]
Seems to me that both the N and #7 options are wrong. Who wants to lug their bags onto a subway to get to the airport? When you've spent the money for a plane ticket, it makes little sense to skimp on the cost of a cab.
Airport trains should run to the Amtrak line, and from there to Penn Station, GCT, and (one way or another) to a new downtown station.
(Run it on the Amtrak line)
We've been down this road before. If a line just serves the airport and Penn Station, one would have to take a subway or cab just to get to Penn. So why bother? A subway would provide many stops in Manhattan, right on the Broadway spine where all the hotels are.
In Queens a train that just served the airport would either have to be infrequent, very expensive, hugely subsidized, or all three. A train that served both Astoria and the airport could be more frequent with less subsidy.
The train is expected to serve those traveling alone with limited luggage, or flying into or out of LaGuardia for meetings without a night time stayover. Business travelers and the young another words, along with employees. LaGuardia is largely a "briefcase" airport. CEOs, large parties with extensive luggage, and those unfamiliar with the city and its transit system are better off in cabs and limos regardless.
The need for a luxury class one-seat ride, followed by a cab, makes more sense for JFK, which is further away and serves longer trips.
[CEOs, large parties with extensive luggage, and those unfamiliar with the city and its transit system are better off in cabs and limos regardless.]
Correct as to the latter two categories, but CEOs? They *should* ride the subway when in NYC (as should other wealthy/celebrity types) so they can see what us normal folks are like.
For those of you who never been overseas or to cities where they have light or heavy rail to Airports, You will be suprised how many people both locals and tourist use the train services. Hong Kong built a completely new service last year just to serve the Airport to the Central Cities, which cost a few billion (USD)
For those of you who never been overseas or to cities where they have light or heavy rail to Airports, You will be suprised how many people both locals and tourist use the train services. Hong Kong built a completely new service last year just to serve the Airport to the Central Cities, which cost a few billion (USD)
In other parts of the world (particularly in Europe) people don't have a love affair with the automobile like we do here in the States. In the countryside, they get around on railroads. In the cities, they get around with subways and trams (trolleys). They also use bicycles. Like idiots, we Americans tore up all our trolley tracks and replaced the trolley lines with buses. They didn't do that in Europe. They always appreciated their rail lines. Now, some 50 or 60 years later, we Americans are finally wising up to the fact that Light Rail is the future in surface transportation. I'm in my forties. I grew up in the city with the most extensive trolly network in the world (NYC). I rode my first trolley in Philadelphia when I was 18. I didn't know that they had them before then. I didn't know that Newark had them until a year later. Could you imagine? Growing up in the city that had the most extensive trolley network in the world, and having to go out-of-town to ride a trolley! Sickening!
12/08/99
I was told that Brooklyn had the largest trolley system in the U.S. Today?..Nothing! I guess that takes into consideration route miles and rolling stock.
Bill Newkirk
[I'm in my forties. I grew up in the city with the most extensive trolly network in the world (NYC).]
Getting rid of the City's trolleys was the mistake to end all mistakes.
"Getting rid of the City's trolleys was the mistake to end all mistakes."
They were gotten rid of because they couldn't swurve around traffic like buses. At the time they were built, very few vehicles were on the street. After the war, the economy got so good, almost everyone were able to afford a car. As a result, trolleys became obsolete.
N Broadway Line
[They were gotten rid of because they couldn't swurve around traffic like buses. At the time they were built, very few vehicles were on the street. After the war, the economy got so good, almost everyone were able to afford a car. As a result, trolleys became obsolete.]
Trolleys make little sense in suburbs or small cities, but anywhere there's bus service they make a *lot* of sense--comfortable, no local pollution, more capacious than buses. They were gotten rid of here because General Motors wrote provisions into its bus contracts requiring New York to rip the tracks up--something the City sued about years later.
Even today, not many people in New York own cars.
[For those of you who never been overseas or to cities where they have light or heavy rail to Airports, You will be suprised how many people both locals and tourist use the train services. Hong Kong built a completely new service last year just to serve the Airport to the Central Cities, which cost a few billion (USD)]
In my own experience the opposite is true--just a few stragglers.
A train to LGA would probably attract many of the 'day trippers' -- people who fly the shuttles to either Washington or Boston and return home that evening (or vice-versa, as Todd does flying in from Boston).
So long as it got out to the airport from Manhattan in decent time, it would be much cheaper than taking a cab and less of a hassle than the airport bus (unless you're headed to the Grand Central area anyway).
[A train to LGA would probably attract many of the 'day trippers' -- people who fly the shuttles to either Washington or Boston and return home that evening (or vice-versa, as Todd does flying in from Boston).
So long as it got out to the airport from Manhattan in decent time, it would be much cheaper than taking a cab and less of a hassle than the airport bus (unless you're headed to the Grand Central area anyway).]
A small segment, though. My guess is that the great majority of people who take the shuttle are businessmen whose expense are reimbursed, or who can well afford a cab trip if they aren't.
As I pointed out elsewhere, for the cost of building that extension to LaGuardia we could provide a free cab ride to every single passenger at the airport for three years. It takes more than a few commuters to justify that kind of expenditure!
[My guess is that the great majority of people who take the shuttle are businessmen whose expense are reimbursed, or who can well afford a cab trip if they aren't. ]
You're missing the main reason for business folks to choose the subway over the cab (or limo): It Saves Time! No more getting stuck in rush hour or leaving an hour early because all highways Laguardia are backed up. Just hop on the subway and get there in 20 minutes. As a frequent user of Laguardia airport, for me there would be no better way during the business day to get to the airport than by using the subway.
Everyone I know would ride the N to LaGuardia when traveling alone, especially to/from work in Manhattan. It hits all the hotels, and you could get to the airport with one change of train from almost everywhere. Lots of people I know have tried to take the subway to the bus -- once!
[Everyone I know would ride the N to LaGuardia when traveling alone, especially to/from work in Manhattan. It hits all the hotels, and you could get to the airport with one change of train from almost everywhere. Lots of people I know have tried to take the subway to the bus -- once!]
Including me. But unless they're travelling light during off-peak hours and happen to be near the N, I still say that most people won't lug their baggage onto the subway.
Another way to look at it: some people will take the subway--but a direct link would serve a much broader cross section of travellers with faster service at no more cost.
Everyone I know would ride the N to LaGuardia when traveling alone, especially to/from work in Manhattan. It hits all the hotels, and you could get to the airport with one change of train from almost everywhere. Lots of people I know have tried to take the subway to the bus -- once!
You also can't forget the 25,000 or so people who work at LaGuardia or in the area, many of whom are modestly paid. And the additional people who are not recorded as working with a NYC base but layover here (flight attendants, pilots). These are potential riders as well.
[You also can't forget the 25,000 or so people who work at LaGuardia or in the area, many of whom are modestly paid.]
_Modestly_ paid? Airline workers? In what universe?
My friend's brother is a baggage handler at JFK, and he makes almost $16 an hour with nothing but a high school diploma.
(Modestly paid airline workers?)
The people who work for the airlines are not modestly paid. But the people who work for the stores and services in the airport, and clean the airport, are.
My preferred service pattern would be to run the N to the airport, with three stops and more trains per hour, 24/7. If the extra trains are not needed in Brooklyn, they'd turn around at Whitehall.
To give those with luggage the option of avoiding rush hour crowds (and to provide a quick trip for one-day travelers), I'd use the center express track to run a special, higher fare train (collected on the train) once every 15 minutes. It would run inbound from 7 a.m. to, say, 2:30 and outbound from 2:30 to midnight, bypassing stations between the airport and Queens Plaza. It would always termiante at Whitehall.
At other times, frequent service will be more important than saving five minutes on the trip, so a separate train just to the airport would make little sense.
"they'd turn around at Whitehall."
Turning some (N's)of them around at 14th Street will be more preferable. It is where almost everyone gets off.
"To give those with luggage the option of avoiding rush hour crowds (and to provide a quick trip for one-day travelers), I'd use
the center express track to run a special, higher fare train (collected on the train) once every 15 minutes. It would run inbound
from 7 a.m. to, say, 2:30 and outbound from 2:30 to midnight, bypassing stations between the airport and Queens Plaza. It
would always termiante at Whitehall."
Special Airport Service (SAS) should be proposed during rush hours, however, 15 minutes is a little to long of a wait. I prefer a 5/10 minute heyway.
I don't know if it's a good idea to impose a higher fare on airport travelers and workers. Besides, what makes NY so special that it has to impose a higher fare for person making the airport as their destination?
N Broadway Local
Not a bad proposal, except that I'd emphasize the airline service and offer three premium services:
LGA-Whitehall high amenity superexpress via BMT 3rd track and express skipping all stops to a separate platform (already exists, I think) opening into a station in the spectacular Customs House with elevator service to the first floor and cab entrances on Bridge Street, with a cross platform transfer to other BMT services and eventual pedestrian/people mover links to the SI Ferry and the other downtown subways
LGA-GCT upper level via Amtrak/Penn/63rd St. tunnel; link to Lexington Avenue
LGA-Penn via Amtrak/Penn/32nd St. tunnel; links to West Side subway lines and PATH
Are there enough passengers to justify those three lines during daytime hours? I'd say so--LGA handles 60,000 passengers/day, many of whom come from the Manhattan business districts.
What about the extra fare--would passengers pay $5 say rather than the $1.50 a subway ride would cost?
The median income of a passenger at LGA is $91,360; only 82% have incomes over $40,000; fifty-two percent are travelling on business. Of the 22,000,000 annual passengers, only 575,000 utilized bus service.
But I'd also make LGA the terminus of the N, for POSS (plain old subway service), and run that on a 24-hour basis.
Moderate paid Airline workers. In the last 10 years the airlines have cut wages drastically. New hires are LUCKY to get 1-2 dollars over the minimun wage. People who have close to 20 years in the industry are offered great retirement benefits to get out so the carriers can hire low wage workers. Also in small cities, the Airlines contract out their workers to other companies, and in order for these companies to get the contract they have to be low bidder. If a airline only has 1 or 2 flights a day into a Airport, Guranteed that the person behind the desk is working for a contract company at low salarey and No benefits
[You also can't forget the 25,000 or so people who work at LaGuardia or in the area, many of whom are modestly paid. And the additional people who are not recorded as working with a NYC base but layover here (flight attendants, pilots). These are potential riders as well.]
True, and they would certainly use it. But is it worth $700,000,000 to provide that service?
That's why I don't believe in subsidies--they're incredibly inefficient.
The last time I flew into NYC I came in at LaGuardia on a Saturday Morning. I took one of the Airport Van Shuttles in to GCT since I was staying at the Hyatt on 42nd and Park. It took a hour just to go thru the Midtown Tunnel. I had a heavy bag, since I was bringing a lot of gifts for family. If the N train ran to the Airport or any train, I would have taken it. To tell you the truth. That day after a long trip from Hawaii to St Louis to NYC I did not feel like shleping bags up and down the stairs at Jackson Hts and GCT. But I usually take the subway in when I come into the city.
I've taken the subway once to Laguardia, and it was if not a disaster a real disappointment.
But a one hour trip isn't usual--sounds like you hit a traffic jam or took a bad route.
And since when does LaGuardia have direct access to the subway???
No wonder your trip to LGA on the subway was a real disappointment. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
It was not a hour trip. It took a hour to get thru the toll plaza and the tunnel. I was wondering why the Van driver did not take the Queensboro Bridge.
It's not really fair to compare New York to Hong Kong. HK has been isolated for so long that its economy is completely dependent on air and sea links; if you couldn't drive more than thirty miles before coming to a militarized border you probably wouldn't have a car either. It'll be interesting to see what happens to its role as entrepot as HK starts turning north to China.
It is fair to compare NY's economy to London's, however, and London has both subway and high-speed rail to its main airport (Heathrow), as well as commuter and national rail stations at its secondary airports, Gatwick and Luton, which they had the sense to build near existing rail lines.
Speaking of existing rail lines, has MTA ever thought about digging up Farmer's Boulevard to get to JFK instead of messing around on the Van Wyck? It's only about a mile and a half from Locust Manor LIRR.
[It is fair to compare NY's economy to London's, however, and London has both subway and high-speed rail to its main airport (Heathrow), as well as commuter and national rail stations at its secondary airports, Gatwick and Luton, which they had the sense to build near existing rail lines.]
I've taken the subway to Heathrow, and unless things have changed, almost nobody travels that way.
[I've taken the subway to Heathrow, and unless things have changed, almost nobody travels that way. ]
Josh, you're being ridiculous. Everyone knows that the Line from London to Heathrow is one of the most heavily travelled in the entire system. In fact, that line in particular has spurred other governments to build lines to their airports. Other highly used airport lines: DC's Yellow Line, Chicago's airport line, and Atlanta's MARTA line to the airport.
[Correct as to the latter two categories, but CEOs? They *should* ride the subway when in NYC (as should other wealthy/celebrity types) so they can see what us normal folks are like.]
And like the executives in Dilbert, laugh . . .
[We've been down this road before. If a line just serves the airport and Penn Station, one would have to take a subway or cab just to get to Penn. So why bother? A subway would provide many stops in Manhattan, right on the Broadway spine where all the hotels are.]
The hotel people are going to take cabs either way, because they have baggage. A train will work only if it's more convenient and saves time, and the subway doesn't fit that bill--it's fast enough to get to LGA by cab as it is, because the subway has too many intermediate stops. It'll be the Train to the Plane all over again.
[In Queens a train that just served the airport would either have to be infrequent, very expensive, hugely subsidized, or all three. A train that served both Astoria and the airport could be more frequent with less subsidy.]
But people won't take it, any more than they take the trains to airports in other cities--and whatever anybody says, people don't take them either; they're giant boondoggles because they're too slow, they're too difficult to figure out, people have to take a cab to get their luggage to a subway station anyway.
As to frequency of service, automate and run small trains. And note that I didn't say the new tracks couldn't be shared between subway and airport service. Some bureaucrats have, but, as I've said in the past, that's what senators are for.
[The train is expected to serve those traveling alone with limited luggage, or flying into or out of LaGuardia for meetings without a night time stayover. Business travelers and the young another words, along with employees. LaGuardia is largely a "briefcase" airport. CEOs, large parties with extensive luggage, and those unfamiliar with the city and its transit system are better off in cabs and limos regardless.]
I don't think business travellers of any kind will be interested in taking the subway. You'll end up with backpackers, college kids visiting mom and dad for the holidays, and airport employees. The latter might justify a subway stop, but it's hard to see how their case is more pressing than the people who use the Lexington Avenue.
The only real justification for building airport access that I can see is that businesses say they need it, and that means a service they can actually use.
[The need for a luxury class one-seat ride, followed by a cab, makes more sense for JFK, which is further away and serves longer trips.]
Its more necessary and the economics are better, to be sure. But as I said, it seems to me that the best way to address that is by sharing some track with the subway--and keeping seperate rolling stock and stations to provide the one stop ride that people will actually use. Otherwise, the subway people will come, but the air travellers will not.
I'm not sure it makes sense to compare the relative needs for the Second Avenue line and the LGA extension, given the way the funding seems to work. If we formulate the spending decision as a choice between the two projects based on their merits, we wind up with neither (as the $ gets spent in coming up with studies just to find cost/benefit criteria between the two). If we say we want both, and present the choice as between build and no-build in both cases, we might actually get one or the other of them.
This has to do with the logic of policy, of course, not with the logic of your argument, which is perfectly sound.
[I'm not sure it makes sense to compare the relative needs for the Second Avenue line and the LGA extension, given the way the funding seems to work. If we formulate the spending decision as a choice between the two projects based on their merits, we wind up with neither (as the $ gets spent in coming up with studies just to find cost/benefit criteria between the two). If we say we want both, and present the choice as between build and no-build in both cases, we might actually get one or the other of them.]
The more I watch it, the more I become convinced that our tranportation priorities are decided maybe 90% on the basis of seedy political greed--e.g., Pataki devoting funds to projects that benefit his suburban constituents--and 10% on the basis of the people who scream the loudest. The Second Avenue subway seems to be in the scream the loudest camp right now, and that's not good, because while the screams are getting louder and louder, it needs at least one accountable political powerhouse behind it. Screaming under those circumstances seems to lead to inefficient boondoggles rather than action, e.g., Sheldon Silver's $700 million to "begin work on" a full length Second Avenue subway equates to $700 million for nothing.
So I'd say you're right--under those circumstances, I'd rather see that $700 million go to a LaGuardia link. At least something would get done.
The current Mayor wants the LaGuardia link. The City Council has approved canceling other city funding to the MTA, and dedicating the city contribution to the LaGuardia link. Most people involved know the N extension is the best option. Only NIMBY and Vallone can stop it.
[The City Council has approved canceling other city funding to the MTA, and dedicating the city contribution to the LaGuardia link.]
Good for them!
I, too, will like to see something done in Queens in reference to mass transit expansion. Besides, Manhattan seems to already have it's fare share of rail transit.
N Bwy Lcl.
[I, too, will like to see something done in Queens in reference to mass transit expansion. Besides, Manhattan seems to already have it's fare share of rail transit.]
Not on a per capita basis--check out the commuter density maps in the RPA's proposals for a real eye opener.
In general, the heavily used lines in high traffic corridors make the money, while the outlying spurs in the boros (and upper Manhattan) are heavily subsidized loss leaders. Also, the lines in Manhattan typically serve everybody--a Second Avenue subway would, for example, serve Queens (commuters to downtown), Brooklyn (commuters to midtown), suburbanites (LIRR and Metro North commuters to downtown), people from the Bronx going anywhere, people from the Upper and Lower East Sides of Manhattan, and even people who take the ferry from Staten Island.
At $350 million/mile and $75 million/station for a 2 track line, it just doesn't make sense to build a subway anywhere surface roads can handle traffic unless there's a compelling reason such as an airport or overcrowding on existing lines that can't be fixed through other means such as updating the signal system.
(At $350 million a mile and $75 million a station).
You are describing what subways SHOULD cost in my view. The MTA thinks the subway will cost $1 billion per mile. At $350 million per mile we'd be extending lines all over the place.
I agree about the value of subways in Manhattan. After all, Manhattan is the place most of us are trying to get to by train. But something needs to be done for areas beyond the subway. More large Park-n-ride garages are a good possibility. We could pay for them if we tolled all the free bridges into Manhattan.
Seems to me that both the N and #7 options are wrong. Who wants to lug their bags onto a subway to get to the airport? When you've spent the money for a plane ticket, it makes little sense to skimp on the cost of a cab.
Really? Here in Chicago, a cab ride to O'Hare can easily run up to $30, not to mention the sheer joy of spending 90 minutes stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Kennedy Expressway. I doubt that a cab ride to any of New York's airports would be any easier or less expensive.
Not everybody can afford the extra $30+ for a cab ride, and even of those that can afford it, many often take the L just to save on the aggrivation with traffic.
(Me? I usually make a point to fly into LaGuardia during an off-peak period and take the M60 bus to Manhattan, but I'd much prefer a direct subway connection. Nothing like being stuck in traffic on the Triborough after spending 4 hours on a plane.)
Both the Blue Line to O'Hare and the Orange Line to Midway carry a great number of passengers to and from the airports, and most Chicagoans simply take it for granted that they can ride the L straight into the airport terminal. It baffles me that New York hasn't caught onto the idea yet.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[Really? Here in Chicago, a cab ride to O'Hare can easily run up to $30, not to mention the sheer joy of spending 90 minutes stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Kennedy Expressway. I doubt that a cab ride to any of New York's airports would be any easier or less expensive.
Not everybody can afford the extra $30+ for a cab ride, and even of those that can afford it, many often take the L just to save on the aggrivation with traffic.
(Me? I usually make a point to fly into LaGuardia during an off-peak period and take the M60 bus to Manhattan, but I'd much prefer a direct subway connection. Nothing like being stuck in traffic on the Triborough after spending 4 hours on a plane.)
Both the Blue Line to O'Hare and the Orange Line to Midway carry a great number of passengers to and from the airports, and most Chicagoans simply take it for granted that they can ride the L straight into the airport terminal. It baffles me that New York hasn't caught onto the idea yet.]
The cab trip to Laguardia is fast and cheap. Kennedy Airport is further away, but when the TA offered a time-saving "Train to the Plane" service to JFK with bus service around the terminal nobody took it--I mean *nobody*--the trains were virtually empty.
Most people who have spent several hundred dollars on a plane ticket just don't care about saving $10 on a cab--you have to offer something more.
Most people who have spent several hundred dollars on a plane ticket just don't care about saving $10 on a cab--you have to offer something more.
Most people buy their plane tickets several weeks in advance and may not have enough cash with them on the day of the actual flight. I should know... I've been in that position many times.
As shocking as this may be, not everybody can afford a $30 cab fare, even after buying plane tickets.
And even if I did have the extra cash, I can think of about a hundred things I'd rather spend it on than a cab ride to the airport when I can get there just as easily with a $1.50 ride on the L.
The cab trip to Laguardia is fast and cheap.
Define "fast and cheap." Paying $20-30 to crawl across the Triborough and down 125th Street isn't my idea of fun.
Kennedy Airport is further away, but when the TA offered a time-saving "Train to the Plane" service to JFK with bus service around the terminal nobody took it--I mean *nobody*--the trains were virtually empty.
Probably because this was an express train, meaning most people wouldn't be able to catch the train at a stop close to them. Also, it still involves a transfer to a bus. You're talking about at least a three-seat ride for most people... No wonder nobody took it.
The CTA Blue Line is a local train and terminates inside O'Hare itself. Get off the train, go up a short escalator, and boom, you're inside the terminal. And it works -- witness the crowds of people coming off each train that pulls into the station. New York could learn a lot from Chicago in this case.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[The CTA Blue Line is a local train and terminates inside O'Hare itself. Get off the train, go up a short escalator, and boom, you're inside the terminal. And it works -- witness the crowds of people coming off each train that pulls into the station. New York could learn a lot from Chicago in this case.]
I've never taken the airport train in Chicago, but I have in other cities, and each time they've been woefully underutilized.
Having more stops on the subway won't make any difference. Unless they happen to live or work along the BMT, most people will have to change trains to get to it in the first place, and in NYC that means lots of stairs and long passages. People who have no baggage won't have a problem with it; people who have bags will say forget it. And most people at an airport, even a short hop onee like LaGuardia, have bags.
As to the savings, I see people who are totally broke take a $20 cab ride rather than public transportation when they go to the airport. It's not that public transportation doesn't get you there just as fast--it does. That $1.50 ride may be good for you--but considering that you could offer a free cab fare for every one of the 66 million passengers who use LaGuardia over a three year period for the cost of building the subway link, it's a rather expensive subsidy.
Whiplash! If 1 1/2 mile subway extension would serve too few people to be cost effective, how do you justify an entire separate line?
The point is, the airport cannot justify a rail line by itself, but as the city's from door you want to offer an alternative to the BQE. Therefore, you need a service that will serve the aiport and other places too.
I have an opposite view about sending the N to the airport. First, what are Airport passengers going to do when they tried to board an overcrowded train? Wait???? They will find an alternative route (the next time they decide to travel) to the airport. It most likely will be cab or car service. As a result, the cost of building the extension will go to waste.
What can be done to eleviate this obsticle? One way will be to provide more service on this line and have a specially design train with lugguage racks. This will reduce the amount of space lugguages consume.
N trains must run at a two minute heyway at least doing rush hours if this is going to work.
N Broadway Local
[Whiplash! If 1 1/2 mile subway extension would serve too few people to be cost effective, how do you justify an entire separate line?
The point is, the airport cannot justify a rail line by itself, but as the city's from door you want to offer an alternative to the BQE. Therefore, you need a service that will serve the aiport and other places too.]
See my other post--the one with the figures.
The one thing I'd add is that airport access is listed by businesses as one of the main reasons they leave New York, and it seems to me that we should worry about keeping businesses here before just about anything else. The figures on the average income of air travellers at LGA are pretty stunning. Directly or indirectly, those people add a *lot* to the local economy.
Don't forget the workers. The city's largest employment centers are (in order)
Midtown
Dowtown
Midtown South/etc.
Downtown Brooklyn
JFK and vincinity -- 50,000 workers
LGA and vicinity -- 25,000 workers
They added rail service to Downtown Miami. Downtown Miami, including the nearby Brickell corridor, has about 40,000 employed.
12/08/99
The "Train to the Plane" should have been called the Train to the BUS to the Plane. That's why the lack of ridership. But was a puesdo commuter rail service for the Howard Beach and Rockaway people who wanted a faster service to Manhattan bypassing the Fulton St. line.
Bill Newkirk
"The "Train to the Plane" should have been called the Train to the BUS to the Plane. That's why the lack of ridership. But was a
puesdo commuter rail service for the Howard Beach and Rockaway people who wanted a faster service to Manhattan
bypassing the Fulton St. line."
Faster to Midtown Manhattan, not Lower Manhattan (Financial District).
N Bwy Lcl.
I was thinking of the same thing run a spur off the Amtrack, put back the 3rd rail or use Dot of T Conn Cars and run non stop from LGA to Penn or GCT. Maybe by 2099 they will do it
[I was thinking of the same thing run a spur off the Amtrack, put back the 3rd rail or use Dot of T Conn Cars and run non stop from LGA to Penn or GCT. Maybe by 2099 they will do it.]
LOL
Exactly. You could also run direct service to JFK via Jamaica.
I'd also run airport specials, with their windows opaqued singapore style, down the BMT, since there's no commuter connection yet to downtown--they'd go to a special airport only terminal in the basement of the spectacular and convenient Customs House, then via the Atlantic Avenue branch to the Rockaway ROW and Airtrain.
And while we're at it, bring nonstop service from Newark airport via the PRR tunnel and downtown PATH.
With checkin on the train, transportation to the airports would become a competitive asset rather than a liability. Three spectacular terminals--the new Penn Station, GCT, and the Customs House--located right in the major business districts, designed for easy access by cab or subway.
[Seems to me that both the N and #7 options are wrong. Who wants to lug their bags onto a subway to get to the airport? When you've spent the money for a plane ticket, it makes little sense to skimp on the cost of a cab.]
You're assuming the line would be for air travelers. I think it would be mostly for airport employees.
[You're assuming the line would be for air travelers. I think it would be mostly for airport employees.]
I agree, and I think that's the wrong priority right now, because it's a big chunk of change, and we could spend the same money in other underserved areas and benefit many more people. Or--we could spend the money to create a link that would be useful to *both* airport employees and travelers, and that's what I favor.
Jeff you did not read my earlier posting. Many people would use the connection train to plane. It has been used all over the world with great sucess. I doubt it will happen in NY but lots of cities are doing it.
Does Laguardia Community College even warrant a whole subway line to it?
I don't understand your question. I am talking about the airport,not the school. The Flushing line was built decades before LaGuardia Community College was built. Those buildings are old factory buildings from the White Motor company and Chickletts Factory, among others.
Down with Vallone!
Assuming it would be built (see other posts, logically it would have to depend on demand/usage. This past April I picked my son up at La Guardia. He came in on a jet from St. Louis at 12:45 AM. This was probably one of the last (if not the last) scheduled plane into LGA. There was hardly anyone in the terminal. All concession stands and most of the ticket counters were closed. It was spooky to hear your own footsteps on the floors. I don't think that there would be much of a demand for service until the AM shift workers have to arrive. I guess you could either elimate service or run a shuttle during certain hours.
Question: If they build it, will they come???? It might be used during the day but would this lead to a demand for more flights into the airport in the early morning hours ??? How would the surronding communities (NIMBY's) react?
[Assuming it would be built (see other posts, logically it would have to depend on demand/usage. This past April I picked my son up at La Guardia. He came in on a jet from St. Louis at 12:45 AM. This was probably one of the last (if not the last) scheduled plane into LGA. There was hardly anyone in the terminal. All concession stands and most of the ticket counters were closed. It was spooky to hear your own footsteps on the floors. I don't think that there would be much of a demand for service until the AM shift workers have to arrive. I guess you could either elimate service or run a shuttle during certain hours.
Question: If they build it, will they come????]
Nah. People have bags.
It seems to me that to make aiport trains competitive, they have to travel nonstop from a station you can get to by cab, with check in on the train. Make it more convenient, faster, and more economical than a cab, and people *will* come, in droves--and that in turn will justify the investment, whereas a subway extension that serves few will never pay for itself.
And automate it to allow frequent, 24 hour a day service.
You should ride the M60 some time. Lots of people with a bag or two want to save a few bucks.
(M60 -- people with bags)
We've been through this before, but the M60 and other bus to subway options stink. While a direct subway connecton would be better, there is nothing stopping the TA from running a shuttle bus direct from Ditmars, leaving with the arrival of each train and returning to catch a train out.
[We've been through this before, but the M60 and other bus to subway options stink. While a direct subway connecton would be better, there is nothing stopping the TA from running a shuttle bus direct from Ditmars, leaving with the arrival of each train and returning to catch a train out.]
I don't know why they don't do that. I guess the demand just isn't sufficient.
They (MTA) must improve service in everyway before building an extension to LaGuardia Airport. Otherwise, due to the current overcrowded situation on this line (N), they won't be enough room for airport passengers.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
[They (MTA) must improve service in everyway before building an extension to LaGuardia Airport. Otherwise, due to the current overcrowded situation on this line (N), they won't be enough room for airport passengers.]
Another reason it has to be a separate service, because you know they won't--and who's going to stand most of the way to LGA with their bags when they can take a cab or limo, or, if they're somehow able to afford a plane ticket but not a cab or group ride, the Carey bus?
Another way of looking at it--for the $645 million it would cost to extend the subway to LGA, you could provide something like 64 million free cab rides--that's a free ride for every single airport passenger for a period of three years.
There is plenty of room on the Astoria and Broadway express tracks for a separate train to LaGuardia. No need for the N train itself to be extended. Once the 63rd Street tunnel connection is open there will be more room in the 60th Street tunnel to accomodate the extra trains on the stretch from Queensboro Plaza to 57th Street.
I'd rather have a seperate airport line. The mere reputation of the NYC subway system will scare people away from using any extension of the N line. A branch off the Amtrak line east of Hell's gate would be ideal, then allowing train service to travel via the Amtrak ROW, into Penn Station or Grand Centrl once that connection is built.
[I'd rather have a seperate airport line. The mere reputation of the NYC subway system will scare people away from using any extension of the N line. A branch off the Amtrak line east of Hell's gate would be ideal, then allowing train service to travel via the Amtrak ROW, into Penn Station or Grand Centrl once that connection is built.]
My idea for taking the trains through the subway tunnel would be to obscure the windows with LCD's as they do in Singapore! The only reason I'd want anything to go via the BMT is that there's no other way to get downtown. It would have to go to a separate station, though.
[There is plenty of room on the Astoria and Broadway express tracks for a separate train to LaGuardia. No need for the N train itself to be extended. Once the 63rd Street tunnel connection is open there will be more room in the 60th Street tunnel to accomodate the extra trains on the stretch from Queensboro Plaza to 57th Street.]
As I think I said elsewhere, it seems to me that it would be a good idea to do just that, with a special station in lower Manhattan that could also serve JFK via a link at Atlantic Avenue. Ideally I think you'd have special service to Penn, GCT, and the downtown area, with the first two via the LIRR tracks (faster).
Sounds like the Metrolink plan??????
3TM
150St. Transfer to the Q15. The next station will be Crocheron Av. Transfer to the 7 line lower level. The Q28 on the street level. Stand Clear please.......
[Sounds like the Metrolink plan??????]
Similar on the Brooklyn end. As far as I know, the RPA recommended converting the Atlantic Avenue branch to subway operation, building a special fleet of subway/LIRR happy cars, and linking to JFK at Jamaica (whether via the Rockaway Line or the Van Wyck I don't know). They also want to build a tunnel from Atlantic Avenue to downtown, which would I think become the end of a real Second Avenue subway.
Metrolink is an excellent proposal, though I find some of their suggestions too conservative and others unnecessarily expensive (e.g., I don't think we need another subway tunnel as long as the Manhattan Bridge holds out--it would be cheaper to increase the capacity of the existing tunnels through better signals and automation). I'm just thinking of the cheapest, fastest way to get airport service--and I love the idea of using the Customs House, a spectacular building ideally located, as a downtown airport terminal.
"Once the 63rd Street tunnel connection is open there will be more room in the 60th Street tunnel to accomodate the extra trains on the stretch from Queensboro Plaza to 57th Street."
You mean, once the Manhattan Bridge work is completed for the N and Q lines they will be more compacity available in the 60th Street tunnel.
N Broadway Line
The Manhattan Bridge has nothing to do with how many trains can be physically stuffed down the 60th St. tube.
"The Manhattan Bridge has nothing to do with how many trains can be physically stuffed down the 60th St. tube."
In a way it does ChrisR. Using the Manhattan Bridge, it no longer have to share the montague tunnel with the M/R - increasing compacity at the 60th Street tunnel.
N Broadway Local
THEY SHOULD PUT ANOTHER LINE TO RUN ALONG THE N LINE TO ASTORIA AND LET THE LINE RUN OVER THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE AND EXPRESS IN BROOKLYN. ONCE IN QUEENS THEY COULD RUN A SKIP-STOP EXPRESS LIKE ON THA 1&9 OR J&Z
"THEY SHOULD PUT ANOTHER LINE TO RUN ALONG THE N LINE TO ASTORIA AND LET THE LINE RUN OVER THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE AND EXPRESS IN BROOKLYN. ONCE IN QUEENS THEY COULD RUN A SKIP-STOP EXPRESS LIKE ON THA 1&9 OR J&Z"
I disagree with this idea, 4th Avenue Express. At least have half of the N trains turn at 14th Street - reversing back to Astoria where they're needed.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
Unless the airport will be closed at night. I think the LaGuardia Station will be open all night. It'll just be like the Howard Beach Terminal Station on the A.
Yeah, but that station is nearly a mile from JFK and has a neighborhood around it to service. If this extension ever gets built, I would assume the terminal would actually be inside the airport. If that's true, then 24 hour/7 day service might not be warranted.
If they extend the N, and the airport is open 24 hours, then the train service will be open 24 hours because it will be used by employees and travelers. If they extend the #7 of the LIRR no one will use it, so they'll probably close it as much as possible
12/08/99
If a subway line is extended to LaGuardia Airport maybe that will increase air service to the airport. You know , if you build , they will come!
And as far as overburdening the (N) line to Astoria , there is an unused center track on the EL. Service to the airport wouldn't have rapid transit headways (like JFK Exp) and could utilize the center track. The line could leave the airport , follow the GCP and fly over the structure at Astoria Blvd. That's if the NIMBY's approve!
Bill Newkirk
"If a subway line is extended to LaGuardia Airport maybe that will increase air service to the airport. You know , if you build ,
they will come!
And as far as overburdening the (N) line to Astoria , there is an unused center track on the EL. Service to the airport wouldn't
have rapid transit headways (like JFK Exp) and could utilize the center track. The line could leave the airport , follow the GCP
and fly over the structure at Astoria Blvd. That's if the NIMBY's approve!
Bill Newkirk"
Improving N service will be enough. That way no additional fare is required if a special service ("AIRPORT EXPRESS) is instituted.
N Broadway Local
If it cheers you, Mr. N, my personal vision has you extended via the airport to Flushing, and following the Port Washington ROW to Bayside, with a lower level between Shea and La Guardia thrown in for LIRR trains from Grand Central.
[And as far as overburdening the (N) line to Astoria , there is an unused center track on the EL. Service to the airport wouldn't have rapid transit headways (like JFK Exp) and could utilize the center track. The line could leave the airport , follow the GCP and fly over the structure at Astoria Blvd. That's if the NIMBY's approve!]
I was thinking about that center track last night. Do you think you could get the headway low enough? How many minutes would it take for a train to go through that stretch?
Why wouldn't it? The rest of the system is open 24/7 except for the J, M, and Z south of Chambers on weekends and those stations have service a block away (4, 5). You have the N go to Astoria and have no alternate way of travel after a certain time, what happens then? Walk?
12.08/99
WMATAGMOH,
WALK?.....No , M-60 !
Bill Nekwirk
When I travel I use the M60 to/from LaGuardia Airport. Let me tell you, it is extremely crowded, very slow, and you have to wait a while for it. Even the N train isn't as bad.
N Broadway Local
The NYCRR Putnam Division from 1916 onwards extended north from a joint station with the IRT Ninth Avenue El at Sedgewick Avenue in The Bronx north through Westchester and Putnam Counties to Brewster NY where it joined the NYCRR Harlem Division. It ran through towns such as Dunwoodie,Elmsford,East View, Pocantico Hills,Briarcliff Manor, Yorktown Heights, Mahopac, and Carmel. The Putnam Line's juction with the Harlem Line was and still is at Putnam Junction a short distance NORTH of the Brewster Station. This meant that a northbound Putnam trains had to run south a short distance on the Harlem to reach Brewster Station. The last train from Sedgewick Avenue to Brewster ran on May 29,1958. However passenger service on the upper Put between Brewster and Lake Mahopac lasted until April 2,1959. This was an inter-divisional move that ran from Brewster over the Put to Mahopac and then over the now abandoned Lake Mahopac Branch to the Harlem Line at Goldens Bridge.
The Put continued to be used for a time for heavy frieght traffic but was downgraded first to sub-division status then branchline status of the Hudson Division starting in the late 1950's. In 1962 23 miles of the Put were abandoned between Eastview and Lake Mahopac. In 1969 the Putnam Branch North was further cut back to Carmel. The last freight train ran here on March 14,1970 although there was an unauthorized last run on September 1,1972. Service on the Putnam Branch South was gradually cut back to below Van Cortlandt Park. Some tracks remain just north of the junction with the Hudson Line at BN which is a little above University Heights Station. A very short section remains as part of the wye at Put Junction Yard on the Harlem Line and is used to turn trains when necessary. Because of this the occasional Genesis Locomotives get a chance to run on the Put for a short distance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The last freight train ran here on March 14,1970 although there was an unauthorized last run on September 1,1972. Service on the Putnam Branch South was gradually cut back to below Van Cortlandt Park.]
I recall seeing a couple of freight cars at the Stella D'Oro plant a short distance north of the Hudson Line junction while returning from a Yankees game. Freight service on this lower portion of the Put therefore must have continued at least as late as 1981-82, as that's when I saw a couple of Yankees games, the only times I've been to the stadium.
Stella D'Oro was indeed the last customer to use what was left of the Putnam line. I'm not sure of the exact date, but it might have been as late as 1981 or '82.
Larry...What was the occasion for the Sept. 1, 1972 run on the Put?
Carl M.
Carl: It makes for a good story. A local teenager managed to get on board a diesel switcher in the Put Yard and was able to get it moving. The engine rumbled down the Put forcing fishermen on the bridge to dive into the water to avoid the runaway. How long the teenager remained on board I don't know but the train finally came to a halt when it ran into some dead trees.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is it true that the Put was a single-track line for most of its length? That would certainly limit the usefulness of any attempt to revive it.
Although the Put was mostly single-tracked there were many sections of double tracks and passing sidings especially at stations. I think the biggest obstacle to restoration would be the elimination of the grade crossings.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why woulr they restore it, most people who use Metro North take their cars or are dropped off by family members. The Hudson and Harlem Divisions are no more then a 10 minute car ride in either direction. Plus there are expensive homes now built on the ROW, and these NIMBYS HAVE THE BIG BUCKS.
I go to the Beacon High school in Manhattan on 61 and Amsterdam and every day at around 3ish i hear and train wistle that sounds like it belongs to a frate train. I don't remember (or see out the wndow) any depot being around the area. If any of you can shead any light on the situation please tell me.
I'm just guessing. Doesn't Amtrak run some passenger trains up the west side? If you're hearing a whistle, I'd be surprised if either freight or passenger trains still use whistles. I would almost suggest you go into the main office at school and ask the secretary if she knows what the whistle is? Before you do that, make sure that you are not the only one hearing it, otherwise there's no telling what the school system might do to a student hearing whistles. In case nobody here knows, and you do find out, let us know here. You hear it everyday around 3 ?? And it's a whistle and not a horn? Does it blow once, long or short, is it the same everyday?
Sorry, it a horn and it blows twice for a second and then stops
As for the school system I'm sure that there don't mind a student hearing horns in his head. That miner compaired to the other kids
Okay. Two blasts of the horn. Do you have a
street map of Manhattan? I'm looking at a map from
the 1980's, but it shows railroad track running
uptown from the W.40's between 10th and 11th Avenue.
Around 54th St., it begins to move over toward 11th
Ave which turns into West End Ave at 59th St. At 61
St. the tracks are right about West End Ave, about a
block from your school. I wonder if the train is
entering a tunnel around this spot and the engineer
is blowing his horn as a warning? Again, this is
all off the top of my head. If you want to do some
detective work, see if you can get to Amtrak's
website, and see if they have a passenger train
going to Montreal around the time you're hearing the
horn. The fact that you hear it only around 3 PM
makes me think it's more Amtrak, rather than the
subway, which you would probably hear a lot more
often.
I liked what you said about a kid hearing horns in
his head, would be no big problem compared to what's
going on in a lot of student's and plenty of
teacher's heads. That was funny, and unfortunately
true......
Let us know what you find out. Maybe there is hope for me. I've been hearing fog horns in my head for the last 20 years, and I thought I was nuts. ( Just kidding ) ( Besides, most people here know that I am nuts ) paul
I just reread your original question. You said that you couldn't see any railyards around the area. These tracks are below the street level. There use to be a freight yard---which on my map has the name Sixtieth Street Terminal that stretched from 60th to 72nd St. between West End Ave and the West Side Highway. I use to look down on it from W.72nd St near Riverside Drive. I don't know if they still handle freight there, but a couple of years ago Amtrak starting running some of their Northbound routes up along these tracks.
Are you interested in trains or buses or transportation? If you're are, that's okay. But if you're not, and you were just wondering about the horn you hear,let me warn you that getting interested in trains and stuff could really be something that will worry people. Telling people that you're going to spend the whole day riding subway trains or buses will make them wonder. Just thought I warn you. I'm just kidding around, at least a little bit.....
Isn't that yard gone? I thought that was where Trump is building a housing complex.
On a different subject, I love this kids spelling. Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this site.
As far as the freight yard goes, I haven't looked at
that place in a long time. In fact, if I get a
chance tomorrow, I may pedal over there and test my
theory of an Amtrak train being the cause of the whistle that was heard.
kma--- You said you loved the kids spelling. but
Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this
site. The second sentence gives me the feeling
that you are being critical of the young person's
spelling. There were a lot of spelling errors, but
this seemed like someone new posting here about
something that he was curious about. I was able to
understand what he meant. Pointing out spelling
errors can make someone not feel welcome.
Speaking of which, you made two and possibly three
spelling and grammatical errors of your own.
kids spelling should be kid's spelling
Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this
site should have a question mark at the end.
I thought that was where Trump is building a housing
complex. This one I am not entirely sure about,
but something doesn't sound right about "that was
where Trump is building"------ the tenses may be off.
Spelling is like the clothes a person wears. We
must go beyond appearances. Now most people on this
site value my modesty and humor. Think
of what they would be missing if they judged me just
by the fact that I rarely bathe, and wear the same
clothes for weeks.
Thanks for pointing that out, I have a lot of spelling errors because i have to type fast, so i could get to class on time. I'm sorry for any misspelling or grammer that i cause
Remember yesterday, I said don't tell anyone at school that you're hearing train whistles. Be sure you don't tell anyone you've been a train buff since you were 4. They'll be very worried.
All joking aside, did you hear the horn this afternoon? We have to get to the bottom of this mystery, and once we solve it, I'm going to find the key to the food locker even if I have to turn this whole city upside down. ( That's just an inside joke for people who have seen the Caine Mutiny )
Yes I did hear it today, at 3:16
I have some Amtrack maps that are pushed somewhere in the back of my closet. I'm going to check them and see if i can anything
Me and PGitty ( aka JPaulGetty) are trying to figure
out what's making the train horn that he hears
around 3PM in the vicinity of 61st and Amsterdam. I
just reposted the subject, because I know that
there are at least 3 or 4 people out here who can
rattle off the Amtrak movements on the West Side.
Or perhaps suggest some other cause for hearing
those sounds.
I don't rattle, but I did check Amtrak's website. There is a 2:50 out of Pennsylvania Station bound for Albany.
Hey Gary, thanks. That must be what PG is hearing.
Do you know whether there is a portal somewhere in the area of 61st St where the engineer might be blasting his horn? Now why doesn't PG hear it other times of the day?
That I can't answer since there are several other departures and arrivals during the day. Maybe it has something to do with his location in the school at that time.
That could be it. The class where you could hear the horn is the only class I have on 61st side of my school (on the 3rd floor).
Now I am pretty certan that it's an Amtrack train and not anything else. I'm off of school soon so if i haven't found an answer yet, I'm going to go and try to find were the horn comes from
(P.S. I don'y know if you read in the papers latey but my school is fighing Rudy Crue for the right not to take the reagents. Here is a link to m school The Beacon School
and PGitty is short for Pat Gerity my name
Hey Pat. I was down by your school today doing some recon of the area. If you go over to 60th & West End, a little before the entrance to the parking lot on the west side of the street, you can look down and see the 2 tracks. Gary is right, there is a Albany train leaving Penn Station before 3PM, but I picked up a North East Time Table over at Penn Station this morning, and Train # 48 the Lake Shore Limited comes is due in at Penn Station at 3PM. I tried asking two guys who were directing cars into the parking lot whether they ever hear train horns, but they didn't speak English well. There is another spot on 58th a little off 11th where you can see the tracks. Your school is in a neat area. You are right by the original power house of the Interborough Rapid Transit. And there was a Municipal Bath House going back to the good old days also right off 11th on of the streets. I followed the line up to 72nd Street, where he disappears underneath Riverside Park. kma was right yesterday when he said that the railyards are long gone.
This was fun. I like your explanation that this is the only time you are on the 61st Side of the bldg.
I have got to run and go tutor somebody. paul
Thanl you very much for sloving that for me. I know about the power plant, I see that huge smoke stack everyday and on the said of the building, in faded letters it says "Interboro Rapit Tranist Company" And the bath house is used today as the 59th Street Recreation Center. Once again thanks
"P.S. I don'y know if you read in the papers latey but my school is fighing Rudy Crue for the right not to take the reagents"
Neither private schools nor any REGENTS are under the jurisdiction of the City Board of Ed or Rudy CREW.
I wonder if there's a spelling section on the new six hour English Regents that your school wants to avoid.
Eugenius--- The Beacon School is one of the Alternative High School within the Board of Education. Although,I didn't see anything on their website about the fight with the Chancellor about Regents exams--- there are many alternative high schools that would like to free to build their own curriculum and not have to be caught up with the uniform Regents Exams. There is much to be said on both sides of this issue.
As far as the spelling errors go--- Check your own use of neither and nor ---- I don't think two negatives should be in one sentence. Your last sentence was a question--- you left out a question mark. I actually may be wrong on the neither nor, but I just needed to lob a couple of shots back at you.
No, I made no grammatical errors.
Neither...nor is a team, and is considered one negative. Notice my use of IS to describe the team.
My final sentence is declarative.
Now as for the other thing, I was mistaken about the Public/Private status of the school, however exclusion from the Regents would still be a matter dealt with by the State Education Department.
As far as the spelling errors go--- Check your own use of neither and nor ---- I don't think two negatives should be in one sentence. Your last sentence was a question--- you left out a question mark. I actually may be wrong on the neither nor, but I just needed to lob a couple of shots back at you.
Touche!
Paul, I thought the mess hands ate the strawberries.
Sarge--- You keep believing those disloyal officers. They fought me at every turn. Take the tow chain fiasco--- defective equipment that's all. But they started rumors and called me Old Yellow Stain. But I had them with the key to the food lockers. I proved with geometric logic that there was a key..... Uh... I'll be happy to answer one question at a time....... I really liked Queeg.
Hey Paul, its been a while since I saw it, but after you quoting some of the lines I'm going to have to get the video out and watch it tonight. And believe it or not, I forgot to watch Tora, Tora, Tora yesterday, Dec 7.
> Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this site?
Sure. You use an app that has a spell checker to compose your text, then cut and paste.
-Dave
> Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this site?
Sure. You use an app that has a spell checker to compose your text, then cut and paste.
-Dave
Whatever you do, don't use Microsoft Word. You will wind up with a lot worse than you started with, if you let Word change everything. You have to be discerning with Word. If I question how something is spelled, I usually just plug it into my Random House Webster Dictionary software, which I usually keep open while I'm on SubTalk. If I misspelled a word, it will give me the correct spelling.
kma--- You said you loved the kids spelling. but
Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this
site. The second sentence gives me the feeling
that you are being critical of the young person's
spelling. There were a lot of spelling errors, but
this seemed like someone new posting here about
something that he was curious about. I was able to
understand what he meant. Pointing out spelling
errors can make someone not feel welcome.
I totally agree. What is important is a person's input, not spelling, crossing t's and dotting i's. I've seen some pretty horrendous spelling and grammar on this BB, but I'm not an English teacher giving out grades. I'm just interested in reading what people have to say about things regarding transit. After all, isn't that what SubTalk is all about? I can speak for everybody on SubTalk, when I say that we all learn something by spending our time here. So, enough of the cheap shots, guys! Lets all make SubTalk a positive experience for everybody.
Actually, I been a subway buff since I was 4. I always studied the subway and know a lot on the subject. And I been posting on this bord for the past year. And I am in the prosses of Running the entire subway system (inculing Statin Island) by this summer. And filming it.
I have to get back to class now
I'm planning to take off this Thursday, and was hoping to get a double decker on the Oyster Bay branch. Does the LIRR have a definitive schedule of what equipment they run on what trains, or is it at random, as with subway lines carrying more than one model of rolling stock?
I figured on leaving Oyster Bay in the morning after the peak hours and returning from Jamaica on the next available train. According to the schedule, the shuttles from Mineola don't start till afternoon.
I still see the original diesel equipment on the Oyster Bay every time I try to get a double decker. So much for the rumor that all LIRR diesel runs are double deckers! A few Sundays ago the long haul 12:20 (?) Jamaica-to-Montauk-first-stop-Patchogue was the old diesel!
You'd think such a long run would get better equipment.
Just thought someone here would know.
A couple of months ago I took my family to the Oyster Festival in O.B. by train from Mineola on both weekend days. Going home we took the same train, the 5:59. On Saturday it was a bi-level (or tri-level if you count the door entry level!!!!) and on Sunday it was the good 'ol 1955 cars. So I don't think any particular train is always one or the other.
And you thought our life/job was easy..
Sunday Night/Monday Morning (Overnight) I worked at 79 on the 1 line. A wash team was there and unknown to them, the drains clogged and a blob of soap started growing otuaside the booth and spreading to the platform on the downtown side. I was on the phone with the Station Supervisor, on the booth mike with the wash supervisor, and on the phone to the wash team's supervisor (at the wash supervisor's call!) and then to vehicle maintenance( When the wash supervisor's truck would not start). Oh yes- Vent and Drain was also contacted and they were called. SO.. I dealt with five supervisors (Vent and drain, wash team,station supervisor (Level II) wash Team supervisor's superior and vehicle maintenance. I also used my booth mike (PA out of order!) to inform deboarding customers to watch their step and had conductors point to the growing soap blob!(oh yes- and the S/A fromt he other side who called me about the blob!). Oh yes- I wanted to hit ther alarm but was forbidden to do so by the wash supervisor(They are also Station Supervisors!-level I, but supervisors)
Last night (Monday Night I was to work at Penn IRT but got bumped and assigned to First Ave on the L. At 14th Street I headed downt the corridor to the L when I saw a confused customer. I offered assistance and was told he was OK. A second individual told me that a young boy was running back and forth in the passageway. I dashed off after the kid and almost had him when he ran away. I asked for assistance and a customer finally cornered the lost boy. I took the boy to the nearest booth (along with the customer who helped me catch the boy) and contacted police-The boy was not very fluent in English and did not know his parents names and did not know his address. I held on to the boy until the police came. The customer stayed and helped- once the boy did try to get away and the customer stopped the boy. Thankfully the booth did call the police who did respond promptly. I do not know the final outcome- I left once I was satisfied that the polcie were dealing with boy and I was no longer needed. I told the Station Agent (S/A) in the booth where I was going and my pass number.
You may have some who do not care, but I care about what happens when I am in the system
I got to 1st ave 20 minutes late-0 fortunately Stations did not gripe about my being late.
"Vent and Drain?" Considering the condition of floor drain all over the system, I had assumed that no one was responsible for maintaining them.
How many people work for this unit? What is the average time between drain stoppage and response? Why can't they clear the drain at the foot of the stairs to the exit at the Northeast corner of 42nd St. and 7th Ave.?
Why are half the drains elevated above the surrounding floor?
Judging from their performance, they must spend their days sleeping or drinking coffee.
Sunday Night/Monday Morning (Overnight) I worked at 79 on the 1 line. A wash team was there and unknown to them, the drains clogged and a blob of soap started growing otuaside the booth and spreading to the platform on the downtown side. I was on the phone with the Station
Supervisor, on the booth mike with the wash supervisor, and on the phone to the wash team's supervisor (at the wash supervisor's call!) and then to vehicle maintenance( When the wash supervisor's truck would not start). Oh yes- Vent and Drain was also contacted and they were called. SO.. I dealt with five supervisors (Vent and drain, wash team,station supervisor (Level II) wash Team supervisor's superior and vehicle maintenance. I also used my booth mike (PA out of order!) to inform deboarding customers to watch their step and had conductors point to the growing soap blob!(oh yes- and the S/A fromt he other side who called me about the blob!). Oh yes- I wanted to hit ther alarm but was forbidden to do so by the wash supervisor(They are also
Station Supervisors!-level I, but supervisors)
I'm so confused !!! :)
I thought this was a sequel "Return of the Blob" movie .....
--Mark
Calling all Metro Atlanta Sub Talkers:
Assistance is needed for the MARTA Station-by-station. See your name in lights!!
For guidance, see the line-by-line section. Of course: You'll have to include those long escalators at Peachtree center Station (that actually have a sign advising claustrophobiacs to use the elevator) and the huge Five Point , the Ashby Street station-also two levels, Airport, etc.
IM SORRY i used to live there and really hated the marta system
poor service too long waits paper transcards even on buses etc.
long waits only two car trains on weekends with huge crowds
glad i dont live there any more not that los angeles has any
system either in the automobile capital of the west!!
maybe i can help you with the los angeles rail system however..
I checked with Peggy-- L A is yours!
LET ME COUNT THE WAYS I HATED IT !! yes i used to live there in the
1980s and have revisited the MARTA RAIL AND BUS SYSTEM IN THE ATLANTA
METROPOLITAN AREA MANY TIMES IN THE 1990S so i know!!
livend in college park east point midtown little five points etc!!!!
SO I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT FOLKS!!
CHIEP TOILET PAPER TRANSIT CARD and have the nerve to have a small
magenetic strip on the back of it!!
in new york city the transit are made fom strong PLASTIC NOT PAPER!!
then you have to hold this paper card and swipe it backwards and
wait for the bus on board computer to reject it and then you do this over and over again even if it is pouring down rain GEORGIA RAIN!!
and then may of the rude drivers accuse you of a fraud counterfit
ring of making paper transitcards INSANE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG waits for mart subway cars to arrive at
any station and one hour waits on weekends with ONLY TWO CAR SETS!!!
( even with standing room only at the stations )
9 to 5 service cant get a train or a bus after 11pm anywhere or a bus or train befor 6 am!!!! THE BIGOTS ABOVE THE GEORGIA 400 who will not
allow a station especially in gwinnett county abd cobb county!!!!
no co-ordination between buses and trains at all
computer controls push button that throw you back and fourth like a yo yo especially from the civic center station to the peachtree station !! NO RAIL FAN WINDOWS AT ALL & finally i used to live there this is experence talking to you not one visit!!!
YANKEE THIS AND THAT GOOD RIDDANCE I DONT LIVE THERE ANY MORE !!
how about those TOILET PAPER MARTA TRANSCARDS? arent they a riot??
I imagine the Atlanta tourism market has collapsed. Does anyone miss hearing from the person who referred to him/herself always in the third person?
whats there to see down there GEORGIA PINE TREES AND ANGRY ATLANTA
BRAVES FANS ANT THOSE """""YANKEES UP NORTH"""" ha ha ha ha!!!!!
Have you considered switching to decaf coffee?
I have a monthly MARTA Transcard and it's made of plastic, like New York's. The only thing I hate about the Transcard is that half of the turnstiles won't read them (they can, they just won't) and I wind up having to buy a token. Two car trains? The least number of cars I've ever seen was four. Two car trains are only on the Bankhead line. I must agree with you about Cobb and Gwinnett counties being bigots. They voted not to have MARTA, but the stations closest to Gwinnett (Doraville, Chamblee) are always packed with riders from Gwinnett. You're exaggerating about the wait, however. The most I have ever waited was twenty minutes- on a Sunday night. MARTA's service hours are from 5am-1am, not 9-5. There's a difference between exaggerating and being totally wrong. I like MARTA, i just wish it had more lines that go everywhere, so I wouldn't need a car. They say that this would happen by 2015. Well, I'm waiting.
Alright, lets clear up these misconceptions about MARTA's system. First and foremost, all transit agencies experience growing pains. With Atlanta's ever-increasing sprawl, it is nearly impossible to grow as quickly as the population. The longest i've ever waited for a train was about 15 minutes and again; that was on the weekend. Presently, MARTA has an order for about 100 new cars and should be receiving them by early 2000. This should also decrease headways for the system. MARTA is also building a new train yard on it's north line. Presently, to add trains to the north line on rush hour (where they are usually needed), they must travel from the southernmost point on the south line. The new yard will alleviate uneccessary wear on the trains and also allow for quicker rush-hour response. Finally, MARTA is limited to the counties that want it and unfortunately, Georgia suburbs scream the dreaded "not in my backyard" spill. They acknwoledge the need but "need" it somewhere else. Several of MARTA's proposed expansion routes (such as light rail and cobb/gwinnett extensions) would greatly turn metro Atlanta into an transit-buff's dream. The people of Georgia just need to wake up and realize that we need mass transit more than ever.
Thanks for reminding me about the 100 car order MARTA has. I believe the reason for the four car trains during rush hour is because they have a car shortage. They would rather have a short train than a long headway. I read in the Atlanta Constitution that the new rail yard will start construction by June, it was suppposed to have been completed in January. They are having a difficult time buying out the property needed and moving businesses. I also read that the existing rail yards can only handle about 20 more cars. However, since Breda is building the cars, the cars will probably have quality problems, like Boston has now. So, it might be a while before all 100 new cars will be on the system.
i saw the EAST WEST STORAGE YARD AT AVONDALE YARDS FULL OF SUBWAY
WORKING CARS while this cheap good for nothing marta system
refused to put them in service why???
i mean on weekends i saw the whole yard full of the french made
marta cars OPERATIONAL AND SAFE GATHERING DUST!!!
while we srruggled jam packed into two or three car sets of trains that only ran ONCE EVERY HOUR AND EVERY OTHER HOUR !!!!!!!
bad memories i had in ATLANTA GEORGIA GLAD I DONT LIVE THERE
anymore!! AT ALL DONT MISS IT !!! thank you for your response!!
Salaam, your name means "peace" in Arabic but you don't seem to be very much at peace with yourself or some of the subway systems. No one here will fault you for saying you don't like something, or that you do like something, but on behalf of a lot of folks I'd like to suggest that you say things once and not 100 times. After a while you sound like a broken record and people stop paying attention (or worse yet, start getting annoyed).
Shalom...
Anon_e_mouse
Brother, what MARTA are you riding. Because it certainly is not the one I've been riding for 10 years (on and off).
Maybe you need a lifetime dose of NYC Transit. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the NY subways, and will always have a first love passion for them.
But I'm not blind. I find that MARTA is a lot more comfortable system than the MTA.
For one example, remember the hot summer we just experienced. Well do me a favor. Name one subway station in the MARTA system that became as hot as Grand Central Station on the Lexington Ave line.
Enough said.
try waiting for an east west line train at night on the weekends
ABOUT ONE HOUR WAIT ESPECIALLY ON SUNDAY!!! maybe the late 1990s
are better i hope for the poor hard working people !!
I like MARTA, i just wish it had more lines that go everywhere, so I wouldn't need a car. They say that this would happen by 2015. Well, I'm waiting.
Don't hold your breath. I'd suggest moving to New York, Boston or Chicago if you want to be able to get around without a car.
As much as Sun Belt cities such as Atlanta and Phoenix like to self-righteously gloat about being the cities of the future, it is only a matter of time before they are choked to death by their own short-sighted urban planning policies.
Suburban sprawl is no different than any other cancer found in nature: a rapidly-growing malignancy of mutant cells that eventually destroys whatever organism it has infested. Older transit-oriented cities have already suffered much damage but most are still salvagable. Newer automobile-oriented cities and suburbs don't stand a chance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
dear david i used to live in atlanta college park east point midtown
and little five points !!!
the TOILET PAPER TRANSIT SO CALLED CARDS MADE ME SICK !!
having to SWIPE THE TRANSIT CARD TOWARD YOU ON THE 27 BUS
people standing in pouring down GEORGIA DOWNPOUR RAIN!!!
and having to wait one passenger at a time fighting the swipers trying to get them to """BEEP"" so that the MARTA BUS DRIVER would not
accuse the bus riders of MAKING COUNTERFIT MARTA CARDS which was 100%
false !!!!
i used to ride the CLEVELAND AVENUE auto row bus from the WEST END
fortunately there was a FREE TRANSFER i drove a schooll buis for atlanta schools my next complaint comes at only TWO CAR TRAINS
not restricted to the EAST WEST LINE ONLY!! on weekends even with
large crowds all the way from the hightower station to avondale !!!
TOTALLY INSANE LIKE THE GREEN LINE HERE IN LOS ANGELES RUSH HOUR!!
the lack of service in atlant even caused me to loose employment
etc.... a 6 am to 10 pm SERVICE what ????
you know I HATE DRIVING AND MISS THE RAIL SERVICE WE ONCE HAD HERE
in good old los angeles so i agree with you 100 % !!!!!!!!!!!
Re-post your message after you learn how to compose a coherent sentence, and then maybe I'll go back and actually read it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
You see, I can't just move to another city. I'm a college student down here, and I won't be graduating for a while. So have to live with all this sprawl.
well!!! they used to make them MARTA TRANSITCARDS OUT OF CHEAP TOILET
PAPER !!! and then require you to wipe the card toward you when you
board the bus EVEN IN POURING DOWN GEORGIA RAIN !!!
its about time the sunday rail service is a littel bit better and FINALLY A PLASTIC TRANSIT CARD !!! WHEW !!!!!!
Whats wrong with Georgia. They did a Tomohawk Chop and made the railfan windows disappear. Can't be that bad.
THE YANKEES CHOPPED OFF THE TOMOHAWK CHOP railfan - windowed
atlanta 4 games a sweep !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know MARTA from the inside. Address your questions to me. The side signs often don't work and yesterday car 319 had the best sign of all. It had about a dozen question marks displayed. You must never rely on the side signs even on the NOELL rebuilt cars.
Four car trains are the rule these days. If a car availablility problem.
The most asked question on MARTA, is this train going to Dunwoody or Doraville?
From an economic standpoint, its amazing how unsuccessful MARTA has been. They built a subway, the whole country paid for it, and people didn't come. You still have a pitifully small downtown, with almost all its workers arriving by car.
It seems as if that might change, however, with Atlanta now a poster child for suburban sprawl. I hear a couple of big employers chose to move downtown rather than suburban office parts. Perhaps MARTA and Downtown Atlanta will reach their potential in the next decade.
I read in the NY Times about the federal government forcing more subway construction in Atlanta against the people's wills to relieve smog levels.
why for example do you have cheap toilet paper transcards??
why even in the pouring down GEORGIA RAIN do you force all of your
bus riders TO SWIPE THESE TISSUE PAPER TRANSCARDS BACKWARDS!!???
why dont you give reciepts to those of us who park pay and ride and
then get our cars DENVER BOOTED EVEN AFETR WE PAY FOR PARKING!!
you have no system of proff or reciepts ant PAY PARKING LOTS !!!
why do you only use two to four car trains on the weekends even with standing room only?? and when your toilet tissue paper transcard wears out on the BACKWARD SWIPING FORCED METHODS why do your dirivers
falsely accuse riders of counterfit cards when they are DEFFECTIVE??
why do the trains and buses run too late in the morning and too early to quit in the evening??? THE TRANSCARD SWIPE BACKWARDS MACHINE
THAT YOU HAVE TO OPERATE ESPECIALLY THOSE WITH DISABILITIES REALLY
SENDS ME FOR A LOOP!!!! WOWEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SICK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, that is the most asked question. Even after the TO annouces it about five dozen times before arriving at the Lindbergh Station.
12/08/99
I don't know much about MARTA but Atlanta can't be all that bad. It's the home of COCA-COLA !!
Bill Newkirk
dont get me wrong some of the people in agusta and athens and other
parts of rual georgia nice folks sone are ok in atlanta too!!
and i used to drive for the atlanta schools route 171 on stewart ave
transfer to a bus at the WEST END STATION.......
except for the boring georgia pine trees no mountains no beaches
like here in southern california... still even with tyhe 9 to 5
transit system still im not putting the average folks down....
JUST CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE MARTA TRAMSIT SYSTEM !!!!
except for the boring georgia pine trees no mountains no beaches
like here in southern california...
The appalachian Chain starts in NW Georgia and goes into Tennessee.
"The appalachian Chain starts in NW Georgia and goes into Tennessee."
The Appalachians continue up the coast to Maine. The trail follows them.
The Appalachians continue up the coast to Maine. The trail follows them.
They start in Georgia, then go through Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Maine. If I'm not mistaken, I think they even go into Canada.
Correct... And one could even make an argument that they continue into the United Kingdom, or at least they used to.
How, you ask?
This dates back millions of years to when the North American and European continents were parts of a much larger super-continent. The Appalachians and the mountains of Scotland were actually part of the same chain until the continents broke apart.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Did you know that the JFK Airport Line will be done by Bombardier? Adtranz will do the signaling with the wiggling wire technique and the switches, signals and other devices will be provided by Union Switch and Signal.
The Van Wyck Expressway will be used as ROW to Jamaica Station.
Pardon my ignorance, but is "wiggling wire" an actual signaling technique?
Has any construction started on the Van Wyck,,,I noticed widening of both side roadways
This is just a guess on my part. They are widening the highway to put a fourth lane in because once they start construstion of the el, the center lane in each direction will be taken out of service.
The news reports last weekend say that they are widening it because they want more capacity South of the junction with the Grand Central Parkway. No mention of taking away a lane in the future.
Besides, the whole idea of elevating the line is to avoid losing lanes.
Anyway, I believe the whole line is tied up in a lawsuit by NIMBYs claiming that the choice of ROW is racially motivated.
Who would want to go to Jamaica from JFK? There's nothing there but a railroad station.
When I read the initial reports about the project, they said that during construction, the center lanes will be out of service. I am hoping, but not confident that they have figured out a way to build this thing with support down the center divider and the lane will be resored to service after completion.
When you consider that the el will be over 40 feet high (it has to go over the overpasses) and the center divider is very narrow, I have my doubts. Just becuase the news reports didn't say anything dosen't mean it aint so.
I have felt from the beginning that this project is a disgrace. If they want to build it, then put it under the Van Wyke in a tunnel/subway. Also, make it compitable with the subway and LIRR so it can hook up with those lines in Jamaica and be a real 1 seat ride.
My prediction is that within 20 years after the Van Wyke portion opens up, they will tear it down from lack of ridership. as of now, the only ones who will be able to ride it are airline ticket holders and airport employees.
As I think we discussed a few months ago, under Federal regulations, a condition of the funding of "Airtrain" with airport revenue is that it *not* be integrated into existing mass transit facilities (i.e., subway or LIRR). That's why the version of the proposal that extended to Manhattan had the line in a separate ROW, with its own river tunnels and its own terminal at 59th & 3rd.
If it were to be so integrated in the future, MTA would have to buy it from the PA, and (I imagine) the price would have to correspond to the sum of the original airport tax. Thanks to a surprising bit of foresighted arm-twisting, Giuliani forced PA to build the elevated strong enough to support heavy rail, looking forward to such a buyout in the future; but the curves in the airport loop would be too sharp for current subway and LIRR cars, so a special fleet would have to be designed for it.
You're right that the Van Wyck segment to Jamaica is going to be inconvenient and underused, but I'm willing to accept that, for the moment, it's the best that they can do. (I'm just excited to have something better to take me from Howard Beach to my terminal than that darn bus.)
I don't have a problem with the Howard Beach segment. I just feel that the Van Wyke portion is a prescription for disaster.
>> I don't have a problem with the Howard Beach segment. I just feel that the Van Wyke portion is a prescription for disaster.
I do agree with you--I was just trying to explain why we were stuck with this plan rather than a better one. The Van Wyck construction is going to inconvenience many more people than will ever use the finished line, is my guess.
On the bright side, it looks like they're making good progress on the Howard Beach and airport segments, from what I could see out there last week.
"On the bright side, it looks like they're making good progress on the Howard Beach and airport segments, from what I could
see out there last week."
Will this new route be a spur off the A rockaway line, or for the new airtrain?
Broadway Line
It's just to get folks to the long term parking lot, but will extend far enough so you can catch the A.
Mr t__:^)
I was wondering what that structure was yesterday while leaving the Big A parking lot. Thanks!!!
[As I think we discussed a few months ago, under Federal regulations, a condition of the funding of "Airtrain" with airport revenue is that it *not* be integrated into existing mass transit facilities (i.e., subway or LIRR). That's why the version of the proposal that extended to Manhattan had the line in a separate ROW, with its own river tunnels and its own terminal at 59th & 3rd.
If it were to be so integrated in the future, MTA would have to buy it from the PA, and (I imagine) the price would have to correspond to the sum of the original airport tax. Thanks to a surprising bit of foresighted arm-twisting, Giuliani forced PA to build the elevated strong enough to support heavy rail, looking forward to such a buyout in the future; but the curves in the airport loop would be too sharp for current subway and LIRR cars, so a special fleet would have to be designed for it.]
And what are our representatives doing? This is costing billions. Why can't they amend the law to apportion costs depending on service offered? The cost of an airport only ROW into Manhattan would be insane.
[I have felt from the beginning that this project is a disgrace. If they want to build it, then put it under the Van Wyke in a tunnel/subway. Also, make it compitable with the subway and LIRR so it can hook up with those lines in Jamaica and be a real 1 seat ride.
My prediction is that within 20 years after the Van Wyke portion opens up, they will tear it down from lack of ridership. as of now, the only ones who will be able to ride it are airline ticket holders and airport employees.]
Hear, hear! $1.5 billion for a Train to Nowhere, when for a few hundred million more it could offer nonstop service to the business districts.
As far as I know, the best place to run it is along the old ROW of the old Rockaway Branch, which leads right from the airport to the main line to Midtown and the Atlantic Avenue branch, whence it could run via subway tracks to a downtown terminal.
Of course that's the best palce to run it, but the NIMBY's have already spoken out against that one. The people who live along that abanded spur in Rego Park and Forest Hills have more money, therefore more political clout and stopped that idea dead in its tracks, (pun intended). The people who live near the Van Wyke have much less money and didn't have the power to stop it.
That is why all of Robert Moses' highways have so many turns. Those who had big bucks could keep him off their property, those who didn't had to move.
[Of course that's the best palce to run it, but the NIMBY's have already spoken out against that one. The people who live along that abanded spur in Rego Park and Forest Hills have more money, therefore more political clout and stopped that idea dead in its tracks, (pun intended). The people who live near the Van Wyke have much less money and didn't have the power to stop it.
That is why all of Robert Moses' highways have so many turns. Those who had big bucks could keep him off their property, those who didn't had to move.]
Not just true of Moses's highways. I know of at least one interstate that takes a detour right around the property of someone who made a payoff . . .
"Who would want to go to Jamaica from JFK? There's nothing there but a railroad station."
That's right there's a railroad station - LIRR, E/J/Z and plenty of buses. Very ideal for travelers. Although, I would have prefer an extension of one of the rail lines to the airport, this plan is best thus far.
N Broadway Local
This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money. It's bad enough that airport passangers would have to lug their luggage onto a train, but to be FORCED to do it again at Jamaica makes a cab ride awfully attractive, traffic and all. Both airports need DIRECT service to midtown.
[This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money. It's bad enough that airport passangers would have to lug their luggage onto a train, but to be FORCED to do it again at Jamaica makes a cab ride awfully attractive, traffic and all. Both airports need DIRECT service to midtown.]
Yeah, no one will take it. No ridership, a total bust. What an incredible waste!
It's not just a matter of the length of the trip, or the fact that it requires a change. People going to the airport are anxious about missing their plane, and people coming back are tired and anxious to get home--the last thing they want to do is suss out a weird connection somewhere.
Josh,
Will you consider the extension of the E to JFK airport a waste too?
If you do (as I observed other posts), you're not an advocate for mass transit, but an adversary.
N Broadway Local
12/08/99
Once again AIRTRAIN , designed and conceived by AIRHEADS shows that New York City excels in shooting itself in the foot. While other cities made center city rail travel to airports a breeze , New York shows blatant incompetence. Remember , $5.00 to shlep your luggage and ride to Jamaica station and decide either subway or LIRR. Catch them at the wrong time and you'll experience standing (with luggage)at rush hour or long headways. As stated in and earlier post , taking a taxi for the one seat ride paying through the nose seems more attractive than AIRTRAIN and MTA!
Bill Newkirk
Don't blame the MTA entirely for this -- this is part of a turf war between the Port Authority and the MTA. Plus, with half of the Port's board being from New Jersey, a quick one-seat ride from Manhattan would not be good news for Newark Airport, which is gettinga rail link of its own.
How exactly will the transfer work between NJT and the EWR monorail? Will there be a platform transfer, or is there to be some schlepping involved?
I don't suppose PATH will be extended to meet the monorail....
It will have to be up to ADA standards, which means elevators, so Probably a elevator, stairs and maybe a escalator, and cross over to monorail platforms
[It will have to be up to ADA standards, which means elevators, so Probably a elevator, stairs and maybe a escalator, and cross over to monorail platforms.]
Sad--EWR will be in even worse shape than JFK, which will at least be convertible to a one stop ride.
If you ride past the station (between Newark and North Elizabeth) you can see pretty clearly that the Monorail station will be directly parallel to the NJT northbound traks. Yes, this means that you will have to go up over and back down to get to the Monorail. I would agree that there will probably be escalators to all platforms and elevators. I don't think the walk will be quite as bad as JFK, but it's hard to estimate distances at 50-mph.
[Don't blame the MTA entirely for this -- this is part of a turf war between the Port Authority and the MTA. Plus, with half of the Port's board being from New Jersey, a quick one-seat ride from Manhattan would not be good news for Newark Airport, which is gettinga rail link of its own.]
So damn typical. We should call it the Hamilton-Burr Stupidity Contest, because a sensible approach would mean a one stop ride to Newark, JFK, and Laguardia via commuter railroad, subway tracks, and PATH on the basis of what's most convenient--and that would benefit *both* states.
"Will you consider the extension of the E to JFK airport a waste too?"
And you think it's a good idea to add more passengers to an already overburdened line by extending it?
[Josh,
Will you consider the extension of the E to JFK airport a waste too?
If you do (as I observed other posts), you're not an advocate for mass transit, but an adversary.]
Not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about the A? Here and elsehwere, the question for me is basically what gives you the most bang for the buck. A superexpress from JFK to Atlantic Avenue to a downtown station, Penn Station, and GCT would for the most part accomplish the same thing as a subway extension, but with the distinct advantage of serving area businesss and being much faster; it would serve many more people than offering a slower, lower amenity service through the subway. In practice, the Airtrain will run to the A, and while there's no reason through service couldn't be arranged from the subway, as I understand it Airtrain is being underbuilt and won't be able to handle the weight of subway cars.
Does anyone know how the Howard Beach connection would work? I take the A there everyday and the Airtrain structure is practically up against the station wall. What sort of structural changes will the Howard Beach-JFK station undergo (i.e. island platform, escalators, etc.) to make connections easy for travelers/employees?
I am not sure if this has been posted or not, but the daunting task of widening the Van Wyck is well underway. Once the shoulders are converted into lanes, the two left lanes would be closed to erect the structure on the median. Also, part of the Airtrain will be underground. From the terminal area, it will dive underground to cross the runways, then emerge at a portal being built at Federal Circle, and the Van Wyck. There is an at-grade portion as well, but I forgot where it was. :-) I think it might be where the maintenance facility is being built at the Nassau Expwy just west of the VW.
[This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money. It's bad enough that airport passangers would have to lug their luggage onto a train, but to be FORCED to do it again at Jamaica makes a cab ride awfully attractive, traffic and all. Both airports need DIRECT service to midtown.]
Yeah, no one will take it. No ridership, a total bust. What an incredible waste!
It's not just a matter of the length of the trip, or the fact that it requires a change. People going to the airport are anxious about missing their plane, and people coming back are tired and anxious to get home--the last thing they want to do is suss out a weird connection somewhere.
Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station - non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.
[Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station -non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy
reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.]
You are correct about the "idea", but I just don't think it's in the cards that the LIRR will go to either airport on LI. It's much more likely that the TA div. of the MTA will "buy" the Van Wyke line from the PORT after it's built. I also think it's unlikely that a La Guardia / JFK line will be created. The best we can hope for is an extension of the N.
P.S. I also see the PORT keeping the line to the parking lot.
Mr t__:^)
[Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station -non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy
reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.]
You are correct about the "idea", but I just don't think it's in the cards that the LIRR will go to either airport on LI. It's much more likely that the TA div. of the MTA will "buy" the Van Wyke line from the PORT after it's built. I also think it's unlikely that a La Guardia / JFK line will be created. The best we can hope for is an extension of the N.
P.S. I also see the PORT keeping the line to the parking lot.
Mr t__:^)
Isn't politics wonderful?!!
[Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station - non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.]
Couldn't have said it better.
"This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money."
Oh nnnooooo ChrisR, What will make you happy?
I'm sorry they tore your jamaica Avenue elevated line years ago, however, I must say, this time the MTA did the right thing (jamaica center station). Besides, YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE USE THAT TRANSFER EVERYDAY?! Guest ChrisR, over 2 million people. That just wasn't the case with the old J line.
Anyway, we must move forward (you know it almost the new mellinum) not backwards.
This subway/LIRR/Bus connection gives potential customers plenty of options that wasn't available before.
My only criticism is the fact the E and J aren't on the same level; making the transfer a bit inconvenient.
ChrisR, just picture the decrepit elevated line still being there (far remove from the Long Island Railroad and not giving people options as I laid out in previous posts). NOW THAT WILL BE A WASTE!
N Broadway Line
I believe it's an (obsolete, kinda) moving block system. It works via a pair of wires on the tracks, which cross over at set intervals. beyond that, I don't know much about it.
You are correct, Bombardier is constructing the vehicles for the JFK Airtrain. Adtranz has absolutely nothing to do with the project. You are probably getting confused with Alcatel. Check out Bombardier's webpage. Work on the right-of-way has already commenced inside the airport, and work on the Van Wyck Expressway has evidently started with the construction of the road's shoulder into a travelling lane. This is so construction workers can capture the left-most lane to start construction in the median of the Van Wyck.
When I traveled to Puerto Rico in October I noticed a lot of the elevated portions of the line all over the airport especially in the long term parking lot and at the American Airline terminal.
On the back of a train, the route letter or number is posted.
Once, I saw something unusual. Instead of the normal R in a yellow circle, I saw a R in a brown diamond.
WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?
It was for the R to Chambers Street on the Nassau Street Line. They had used yellow and stopped the service shortly after they put the brown R on the roll.
I've seen this train too. The "brown diamond R" indicates the old 95th Street-Chambers St. Nassau St. special that ran during the rush hours from 1968-1987. In fact, the brown diamond "R" route only lasted 6 months, and only one map shows it. Prior to this date, the R special was the same color as the regular R (or RR prior to 1985), green from 68-78, and yellow from 1979-86.
Actually, the 4th Ave. "Bankers Special" rush hour service from 95th to the Nassau Loop dates back at least to the 1950s, and may have been run as early as the 1930s.
-- Ed Sachs
Yeah, but that train ran express, and it crossed the Manhattan Bridge to run south along Nassau St. It also was never called the R. It was usually reffered as the #2, or the "M" if they used subway cars made after 1960. I would consider the Banker's specials as a different line altogether.
Fourth Avenue Specials date from sometime in the 1930s; if you look at the service listings on the back of an old BMT map (the 1939 World's Fair one is fairly common to find), both the Brighton and Fourth Avenue Specials are listed. The curious thing is that the stations aren't listed for either one.
In the early 1950s, the morning Fourth Avenue Special made all stops from 95th to 59th, then stopped at Pacific (skipping 36th), Chambers, Fulton, Broad, returning to Brooklyn via the Tunnel (this has all been discussed here before). The TA changed AM rush service on Fourth Avenue in the mid-1950s so both Fourth Avenue and Sea Beach express service stopped at 36th Street.
In the evening, the Fourth Avenue Special ran from Broad to Fulton to Chambers across the Bridge to Pacific, 36th, 59th, and all the stops to 95th.
With the severe cuts to Nassau Street service (cut even more in recent years so that it's rush-hour only, I think), I wonder what happened to all of those people that used to ride Brighton and Fourth Avenue Specials, West End Locals, and Culver Locals and Expresses. Have that many jobs left the Wall Street area in the last 30 years?
(It's reminiscent of the thousands of Third Avenue El riders who disappeared after the El service in Manhattan was discontinued--reports for some time after said that the numbers of additional riders on Lexington Avenue and on the bus routes on the East Side did not match the El ridership.)
Picky point--going from Chambers to Broad, was the Special running BMT north or south? I would think it was actually BMT north, since Broad St. was the Manhattan terminal. The evening was much easier--it would have been going BMT-south as it went uptown from Broad St since it was Brooklyn-bound. Great folks, the BMTers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Why does the MTA suggest on their web site to use the letter designated lines instead of the numbered ones? Is it because the IND/BMT have wider and longer trains???
The IND/BMT cars are wider(1 foot) and longer(IRt is 51 ft and the BM
The IND/BMT cars are wider(1 foot) and longer(IRt is 51 ft and the BMT/IND can be 60 to 75 ft long). They also have 4 sets of doors on each side vs 3 on the IRT. Also- IND/BMT stations usually have wider plats.
[Why does the MTA suggest on their web site to use the letter designated lines instead of the numbered ones? Is it because the IND/BMT have wider and longer trains??? ]
Because the numbers are not Y2K compliant. For example they're expecting the number 1 train to become the &^% train when the date rolls over. This will confuse most tourists so the MTA is hoping they'll take the lettered trains instead. Regular New Yorkers are used to these odd disruptions and shouldn't be disturbed when a *(# train comes in place of the 5.
The other day my buddy and myself were having a Y2K discusion. Talking about subway systems. He stated that the worst that might happen on Jan. 1 is that maybe they might lose signals. Me being of logical mind said that if signals were lost so would third rail power.Could someone tell me if I am right on this issue? Or does the signals have there own power supply? Then the next thing he said really blow my mind in that if they had third rail power even without the signals working they would still run the trains but at a very reduced speed. Although there pretty reduced right now. Any comments on that last statement?
The other day my buddy and myself were having a Y2K discusion. Talking about subway systems. He stated that the worst that might happen on Jan. 1 is that maybe they might lose signals. Me being of logical mind said that if signals were lost so would third rail power.Could someone tell me if I am right on this issue? Or does the signals have there own power supply? Then the next thing he said really blow my mind in that if they had third rail power even without the signals working they would still run the trains but at a very reduced speed. Although there pretty reduced right now. Any comments on that last statement?
What difference does it make? With the signals out, no trains will run anyway. It would be suicide to run trains with the signals out.
If the power didn't go out that would be the only thing the subway would have to worry about every thing else is man(person to be correct)operated or dosen't have those two number abrevation code to mess up the system. I guess that's an advantage of haveing an old system
If the power didn't go out that would be the only thing the subway would have to worry about every thing else is man(person to be correct)operated or dosen't have those two number abrevation code to mess up the system. I guess that's an advantage of haveing an old system
But the trains still couldn't run without the signals. There would be so many collisions, it wouldn't be funny.
The old elevated lines ran without signals for many years, so there is no physical reason the subways couldn't. Of course, the motormen on the el lines were trained for this type of operation, and today's train operators aren't.
It would not be suicide. You would break out the radios and run the trains under DCS rules. At interlockings the tower operators could dust off those old order hoops and pass up FORM D's to every train that passes (if they MTA's smart they should run off a couple thoudand FORM D's at Kinkos before DEC 31). Most of the interlocking machines are Analogue or 50's relay machines and all they would need is a backup generator to keep the switch motors running.
I'd assume the signal system has some sort of backup anyway - perhaps a battery one. Of course, I think it also needs an air supply too.
How sepperated / integrated with Con Ed is the subway system today anyway? Not like Con Ed is gonna let the lights go out if they can avoid it.
There is battery backup for certain functions, mostly
in the interlocking logic in towers. However, all of
the track circuits are powered from 60 Hz or 25 Hz
and when the commercial power goes off, all the signals
go red. I do not think there are any UPS type systems
for this because this sort of failure is pretty common.
Both signal and traction power come from the commercial
power grid. In some areas, particularly the IRT and BMT
in Manhattan, 25 cycles is still used for signal and it
is generated by a frequency converted at Con Ed.
The 60 Hz power for the AC Track Circuits is derived from Automatic Transfer Switches by ASCO from two separate Con Edison substations. There is no UPS power used on the signaling on NYCT.
RULE 40 Signals; Signal Parts; Defective Signals and Interlocking Signals; Knowledge of Signals
(e) Missing, Unlit or Worngly Lit Signals
A train must STOP at a missing, unlit or worngly lit signal. This must be reported immediately via radio to the Command Center Desk Superintendent and the Train Operator must await instructions from the Comand Center Desk Superintendent.
So if power is lost on the signal system, trains can not pass unlit signals. All trains must call Command from what I see. I've been in a situtation where from DeKalb Ave to 7th Ave on the Brighton all signals went RED. Every train and every signal had to call command to get permision to key by. Kinda like the 509A rule on the railroads.
Since no one actually answered your question:
The signal and traction power are distributed through
entirely different networks. However, if the entire
commercial power grid fails, both will go off.
I still haven't seen the new subway cars. The southbound express track on the Dyre line has been restored, and it's supposed to be used as a test track. Luckily, I live half a block from the Pelham Parkway Station and I'll probably be on of the first to see the new stuff. Hahahahahahahahaha! Just kidding. Anyway, when is the new stuff coming in?Train Buff Headquarters
This past year has seen the MTA sell the subway more than ever before.(I paid $40 for a "NYC Subway Line" Messenger Bag at the museum)
You can get various items ranging from shirts to skateboards all with logos or station signs on them.
Are the TA's various sign patterns and letters copyrighted?
One example I can think of was the show on UPN "DiResita" about the Transit cop. They went as far as to make the (D) train green.
Do shows need permission just to use the various letters of the system?
Also, while theft of signs is obviously illegal, is making exact copies? The store "Transit" ( An Active wear/ Sneaker Store ) on Broadway in Noho is filled with some signs which look real, and some which look like bad copies.
Finally, has the TA ever sued anyone over this?
Thanks,
Fred
The TA's signs are the typeface Helvetica, whose use anyone can license from Adobe or Linotype.
Plus, there is no copyright in typefaces in the U.S. anyway.
And I can't picture the TA trademarking a station sign, which consists of common lettering and a public street name.
Who knows what kind of action a litigious TA would take these days. Companies always made railroad car models with paint designs, logos, etc., and never paid royalties to the railroads, now some railroads want to license this stuff.
Paul, here's something related to this topic: the rare "BLAZE" MetroCard (advertising a "Hip-Hop" magazine of the same name) used TA type letters (with appropriate route-line colors) to spell out the B-L-A-Z-E title on a black background ala a subway station sign.
At the very bottom and in a type size of about pt.4 there is a credit: "Subway Line Indicators Copyright (the symbol, not spelled out) MTA". So it would seem that when the appropriate letters are used within circles of corresponding colors to subway route lines, then that constitutes a copyright infringement against the MTA -- or so we are led to believe.
What do you make of that?
Doug aka BMTman
[ Copyrighting the route letter/number emblems ]
What do I make of it? The MTA is getting aggressive about some really doubtful stuff. The MTA has a legal department. Some person or company with a good intellectual property attorney might be able to effectively face down some of this stuff, but who would bother?
Isn't the MTA taxpayer funded? So doesn't the public have a right to use their signs?
No.
Isn't the MTA taxpayer funded? So doesn't the public have a right to use their signs?
The MTA is surely pushing the envelope of intellectual property. I used to be in the hobby industry. When you were interested in producing a model of, say, a railroad car, you would write the manufacturers or the railroad and, once they determined you were an actual model company, they would help with pictures and plans. They never asked for a licensing fee--maybe they considered that models of their equipment were free and positive publicity. Now many want licensing fees. How much can these fees possibly add to their bottom lines?
As to the "publicly funded" part: generally, studies, etc. of the Federal Gummint (and I think most states), compilations of laws, etc., are automatically in the public domain. For example, you don't need permission to reprint parts of the Federal Register.
However, you get into yet another really fuzzy area since the era of public ownership of what are essentially businesses.
The MTA could argue that the subway, say, is a business that just happens to be owned by the government, not a government service, per se. Under this theory, they could license things like the subway map to other commercial entities and pass the profits on to their owners, the taxpayers.
The possibility of a subway strike helps focus this public/private dilemma: why, exactly, did the employees of the BMT and IRT become public employees, gaining civil service protections but losing the right to strike? Simply because the government bought their employer? Is this consistent with our concepts of free enterprise and the rights of employees?
Isn't the MTA taxpayer funded? So doesn't the public have a right to use their signs?
The MTA is surely pushing the envelope of intellectual property. I used to be in the hobby industry. When you were interested in producing a model of, say, a railroad car, you would write the manufacturers or the railroad and, once they determined you were an actual model company, they would help with pictures and plans. They never asked for a licensing fee--maybe they considered that models of their equipment were free and positive publicity. Now many want licensing fees. How much can these fees possibly add to their bottom lines?
As to the "publicly funded" part: generally, studies, etc. of the Federal Gummint (and I think most states), compilations of laws, etc., are automatically in the public domain. For example, you don't need permission to reprint parts of the Federal Register.
However, you get into yet another really fuzzy area since the era of public ownership of what are essentially businesses.
The MTA could argue that the subway, say, is a business that just happens to be owned by the government, not a government service, per se. Under this theory, they could license things like the subway map to other commercial entities and pass the profits on to their owners, the taxpayers.
The possibility of a subway strike helps focus this public/private dilemma: why, exactly, did the employees of the BMT and IRT become public employees, gaining civil service protections but losing the right to strike? Simply because the government bought their employer? Is this consistent with our concepts of free enterprise and the rights of employees?
The TA wants licensing fees? Absurd! They are not a business. They are a publicly owned governmental agency. Intellectual property? Get out of here! If you model US military aircraft, do you also need to pay a licensing fee? Same thing. Another publicly owned governmental agency. If you put the American flag on something, do you need to apply to the Federal Government and pay licensing fees? However, if I want to put into production and sell dartboards with Clinton's face, I guess I'd have to ask the idiot's permission and pay him royalties!
[However, if I want to put into production and sell dartboards with Clinton's face, I
guess I'd have to ask the idiot's permission and pay him royalties! ]
No, you wouldn't. As a public figure, his image can be used without compensation. Look at that guy who set up a Giuliani target in Washington Square Park and invited people to throw "elephant dung" (not the real thing) at it. Did he have to pay Rudy? I think not.
P.S. The *real* thing is collected at the Bronx Zoo and shipped across the street to the NY Botanical Garden, where it is used as fertilizer. Mo joke.
[However, if I want to put into production and sell dartboards with Clinton's face, I
guess I'd have to ask the idiot's permission and pay him royalties! ]
No, you wouldn't. As a public figure, his image can be used without compensation. Look at that guy who set up a Giuliani target in Washington Square Park and invited people to throw "elephant dung" (not the real thing) at it. Did he have to pay Rudy? I think not.
P.S. The *real* thing is collected at the Bronx Zoo and shipped across the street to the NY Botanical Garden, where it is used as fertilizer. Mo joke.
I guess I could make some money selling rubber piles of dog s--t to people to throw at a poster of Bill and Hillary Clinton. Especially if I don't have to pay them royalties. I probably would have to pay royalties to the person who ownes the dog, whose s--t I would be producing a rubber likeness of!
Lots of piles in my back yard, no royalties required :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The possibility of a subway strike helps focus this public/private
dilemma: why, exactly, did the employees of the BMT and IRT become
public employees, gaining civil service protections but losing the right
to strike? Simply because the government bought their employer? Is this
consistent with our concepts of free enterprise and the rights of
employees?]
Interesting proposition, Paul. The MTA is a government agency, yet the things they run -- the buses, subways, commuter rail lines -- have traditionaly been privately owned entities. Yeah, it is something of a dilemma, and perhaps is the reason for alot of the management/employee relation problems at NYCT currently, and over the years.
BTW, while we're on the subject of the MTA and their business accume: On the packaging for the MTH R-42 subway cars is a sticker that has the official "MTA" logo with the text, "Officially licensed". That says loads to anyone who buys the train sets. It indicates the MTA is acting like a private "for-profit" corporation rather than a government agency. When the MTA was first formed it held a "gray-area" stigma of being quasi-government/quasi-private sector. Unfortunately, it is still with the MTA today as we go into a new millenium.
Doug aka BMTman
You basically got the gist of it, except for one thing: In the case of the letters or numbers inside circles to signify certain lines (i.e. A, B, C, D, 1, 7, S), they have also used Standard Medium (also known in some corners as Akzidenz Grotesk) in one variation or another since 1967 when the color-coded system for individual subway routes was first introduced. As for Helvetica, it is actually Helvetica Medium.
Yes, I always thought that the route numbers/letters of the NYCT were more of a Helvetica Medium or Bold than just a regular Helvetica face (aka Helios).
Doug aka BMTman
(1) The MTA is a quasi-governmental entity (think The Port Authority, Health and Hospitals Corp). That is, it is established by law and must be operated in accordance with such laws and regulations. However, it is independent in that it is not directly responsible to the governor, mayor, or county executives. It has its own Board, Chairman, etc.
(2) Even if it were a governmental/public entity, the MTA would have the right to license/copyright its intellectual property. The line letter/number indicators are kind of sticky, because they may be considered generic, but thinkgs like token design, subway maps, slogans, pictures, etc are surely copyrightable. The federal government pursued claims against several companies selling products with the White House and Presidential seal. They license such symbols to certain companies, who then have the right to use the symbols.
-Waldo, who took one long semester of copyright law in law school.
When the subway was built, how the designers and engineers plan the subway stations? In other words, how did they plan the stops along the subway line.Its obvious how they did this in Manhattan, but how did they plan stops for the viaduct line which ran above Broadway which is known as part of the original subway line,and the Westchester Avenue route which opened a few years after the Broadway line.
Well, I can tell you that the planning for stations has changed, in a more specific time frame, between the 1904 IRT and the 1932 IND openings. Back in ’04 when the IRT opened, the local stations were 200’ long and the expresses were 350’. Which proved to be VERY insufficient in re passenger traffic, and it wasn’t until the 1960’s that all IRT platforms had an average length of 525’. But when the IND was being planned, they assumed the “shortest” trains would be 10 cars MAX., hence most local platforms on the Eighth Avenue line from 72nd to 163rd Streets, as well as the majority of local stations on the Queens Boulevard branch between Elmhurst Avenue and 67th Avenue, are 600’ (which, if you think about it, is three times the length of original 1904 IRT local platforms). All other IND stations (1932-40) had an average length of 660’, with variations previously expounded on.
Now that’s station platform length for you. Now, on to distance between stations: You’ll notice that what was relevant in 1904 became passé in later years, as witness the closings of Worth Street, 18th Street (/Park Avenue South) and 91st Street. To say nothing of City Hall. With the exception of the last-named stop, all stations in question were too close to other platforms once lengthened.
A question was asked earlier about the subway cars at the Fire Department Training Facility on Randall's Island. The R-44 is #227. If I can find out the number of the R-12 I'll post it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
R12? I thought maybe there was an unidentified R21/22 out there in white paint.
-Stef
Stef; You could be right. I was going by what the poster said that he saw an R-44 and an R-12. I rode the M-60 bus pass there last year but couldn't see the cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi, I am working on a school project in which I am designing an ECommerce site having to do with New York City. I am wondering if anyone knows roughly how much it cost to advertise on the subway. Thanks.
I would like to know if station on the old Erie Main Line are still in place today at Monroe, Goshen & Chester. If so, where are the stations located at, specially in Monroe.
Monroe: no. The station structure is gone. The low-level platform remains, as well as some underpasses marked Erie with some year in the concrete.
Goshen & Chester: Dunno
Just west of the current Harriman station along this main line, just off route 17 in Harriman (where it's 2 lanes and passes under this line) is a station building still standing but boarded up. I'm not familiar with what station this was.
--Mark
Mark...The station just off the Rt. 17 underpass is the old Harriman station. The Chester and Goshen depots still exist, the former a real estate office, the latter the Goshen police dept.
Carl M.
The "bitanic" is gone, replaced this week by new equipment! I guess
those FL-9s have gone onto bigger and better things...
What's a "bitanic?"
[What's a "bitanic?"]
An appropriate nickname for the prototype bilevel trainset that the LIRR's used for the last several years on the Pt. Jefferson line. It provided one-seat service to Penn Station using a couple of FL-9 locomotives converted to dual mode operation. When, that is, it was actually in running condition, which wasn't all that often.
I was on it a grand total of 3 times, over senior year of HS, when I was taking motorcycle lessons out in Northport (a LONG post in itself! :) I remember it was pretty neat, but the lights blinked on and off a LOT. Oh yes, they had a nice sound to them when they were first around, but I saw one a few weeks ago at mineola, and they're louder now.
Oh well, I guess if you want FL-9s you'll just have to settle with Metro-North now :)
I think the NY Times had an articleon it once titled "the little train that (sometimes) can", or something to that effect. I also remember being told the Oyster bay line would get them in 1996 :)
12/08/99
When those FL-9's are returned to Metro North wanna bet they'll go straight to the dead line at Croton North ? Knowing the LIRR , those FL-9's must be in sad shape.
And for those C-1 bi-levels that are up for sale , any railroads out there need any stainless steel boxcars ??
Bill Newkirk
Josh's comments on the N to LaGuardia echo many others I've heard.
In this view, we should stop trying to improve the subway system, and certainly should expand it but instead should build a separate system for the more affluent. It doesn't have to be that much different than a regular subway. The key would be a higher price and exclusivity -- keeping us unattractive low-lifes off.
In this view, we would not only build all the proposed commuter rail extenstions, but also build the 2nd Avenue subway as a "snobway" with an express-bus level fare. It could hook into the LIRR routes in Queens, the Dyre Avenue line in the Bronx, and perhaps the Brighton line in Brooklyn. It would have no overlapping platforms with the regular subway, and joint stations would have fare control between services. It would include an express subway direct from Jamaica to GCT, as well as local stops on 2nd Avenue. The Hudson line could be used to provide snobway service to the Upper West Side.
A snobway would be easier to finance, if you assume people would go for it, because of the higher fare and the ability to sell station naming rights. It would also "solve" any future crowding problems on the subway -- if the Lex is crowded, pay up and take the snobway, if you can't afford it, too bad.
The question is, if a snobway was available, would it get all the subsidies and capital improvements, and would the subway be left to rot. My guess is yes, so I don't like the idea. Extend the regular subway to LaGuardia. Us regular people will ride it.
Hey, If the snobway kept away rowdy school kids and smelly homeless people I would pay the higher price. After all, whenever I go to the track I pay for the clubhouse.
We know that the 'snobway' will never be built, but maybe an additional fare premium subway service might not be the worst idea. Collecting the additional fare is the big hurdle. And how would we keep the riff-raff off anyway?
It's like METRA and the CTA for some routes they overlap and the METRA fare is less than CTA. Not as frequent but faster.
The Blue line to O'hare is used by the flying public but it is used more by the peole that work at or near the airport and they go to work at least 5 days a week. Food service, baggage, ticketing, people its really noticable if you depart in the AM rush or leave in the PM rush.
The difference on the left and right side of the platform is noticable during the peak period. Suits vs Blue. But remember people need to get to work and they price they pay daily will make up for a lot of once in a while rides that I pay when I need to fly. The people working out there daily keep the service in place when I need it and thats golden with me.
The Blue line from O'Hare is the best deal going for flyers headed to the Loop-- $1.50 for about a 25-30 mile train ride is CHEAP, the cab fare would probably be 20 times that
12/09/99
If such as thing would see the light of day wouldn't the homeless,rowdy school kids and others band together , hire the ACLU and cry discrimination ?
Bill Newkirk
The only way to prevent this is just to eliminate the prerequisites and have people by expensive cards to ride the line, only months at a time (much money down) and perhaps have waiting lists.
[The only way to prevent this is just to eliminate the prerequisites and have people by expensive cards to ride the line, only months at a time (much money down) and perhaps have waiting lists.]
Eugenius, as long as you were knocking other people's spelling (such as PGitty) I might as well point out the word above is "BUY", not "by"!!!
That's OK, if that wasn't a typo, I'd actually WANT somebody to correct my spelling.
If the snobway guarantees a seat, then BUILD IT!
[If the snobway guarantees a seat, then BUILD IT!]
Amen to that.
You should have to fill out an application to be granted riding "privileges". You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up. Your ancestors would either have to be from the Mayflower, of Dutch aristocratic origin, a decendent of Peter Stuyvesant or a member of the British Royal Family. If you don't meet those qualifications, you would need to be a celebrity--an actor/actress, sports superstar or a rock star. Charge a $10 fare. Offer a complimentary snort of cocaine on board. have conductors with a snooty, uppity British accent announcing the stations and telling the riders "Welcome to the Snobway". Where's your Rolex? Are you sure you're supposed to be here?
"You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up."
Household or personal?
"You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up."
Household or personal?
Personal. We're talking about a Snobway. To qualify for riding privileges, your nose has to be so far up in the air that you get nosebleed from the altitude.
"Personal"
Aww, that's a shame. But I wouldn't have qualified anyway with that English or Dutch Nobility thing. So much for everybody being born e qualitas.
"Personal"
Aww, that's a shame. But I wouldn't have qualified anyway with that English or Dutch Nobility thing. So much for everybody being born e qualitas.
I don't think anyone on SubTalk qualifies. Maybe Bill Gates? The people who do qualify to ride the snobway also qualify for and are given a user ID and password to post on the "SnobTalk" bulletin board.
But they'd be so snobbish that their butler would be the only one who knew how to use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But they'd be so snobbish that their butler would be the only one who knew how to use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, their butlers can log onto SnobTalk, read the posts to their masters and take dictation on what to post for their masters.
ANNOUNCING THE LUXURIOUS AND SWIFT NEW R-144 Snobway VEHICLE Featuring *Quick but smooth acceleration to 75 MPH. *Radar collision avoidance system *High tech suspension system. *Integrated personal entertainment package.*Laptop receptacle with inductive packet internet access *NO Straps * Seats of RICH CORINTHIAN LEATHER :-)
Snobway stations would look like the Moscow Metro, sans the peasant riffraff.
I'm not finished. The snobway would have it's own Philharmonic Orchestra playing in each station. Uniformed turnstilemen would open the gates for the people. Each passenger would be given a glass of champagne or a pricey wine. Contraband Cuban cigars would be available in the luxuriously appointed smoking cars and above all, this line would not (gasp!) leave the Borough of Manhattan, or even go far enough north, lest our great elite fall asleep on the train and end up in some questionable locale.
(Wouldn't leave Manhattan)
Actually, my proposed snobway (see De-unification) would extend up two new local tracks on the Amtrak ROW in the Bronx, out the Atlantic Branch to Jamaica to take LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan via the RPAs proposed Atlantic Avenue tunnel, capture the Brighton line via an Atlantic Avenue connection (also thru the Atlantic Avenue tunnel) with a new stop near Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill, and operate the LIRR Port Washington Line and the reactivated LIRR line to JFK, via the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. Lots of express bus riders and drivers out there in those locales. Lots of snobs, too.
I'm not finished. The snobway would have it's own Philharmonic Orchestra playing in each station. Uniformed turnstilemen would open the gates for the people. Each passenger would be given a glass of champagne or a pricey wine. Contraband Cuban cigars would be available in the luxuriously appointed smoking cars and above all, this line would not (gasp!) leave the Borough of Manhattan, or even go far enough north, lest our great elite fall asleep on the train and end up in some questionable locale.
Elegant subway cars with velvet walls, shag carpet floors, 14K gold trim, stereo PA with piped-in music. For an extra fee, you could go to the dining car during evening rush hour and dine on the finest Filet Mignon. A fancy French Garcon would take your order for the meal. The train would never leave the tunnel, because going through the ghetto areas could make you sick enough to up-chuck your steak. After a fine meal, fit for a king, a slice of New York style Cheese Cake with an after-dinner Congnac. then, its time to retreat to the smoking car for a fine Cuban cigar. By the time you get home, you're so punchy from all the booze that your wife says "Poor Baby! You must have had a hard day at the office!"
{You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up.]
If that's your criterion, fully 36% of the passengers at LaGuardia airport qualify.
[Josh's comments on the N to LaGuardia echo many others I've heard.
In this view, we should stop trying to improve the subway system, and certainly should expand it but instead should build a separate system for the more affluent. It doesn't have to be that much different than a regular subway. The key would be a higher price and exclusivity -- keeping us unattractive low-lifes off.
In this view, we would not only build all the proposed commuter rail extenstions, but also build the 2nd Avenue subway as a "snobway" with an express-bus level fare. It could hook into the LIRR routes in Queens, the Dyre Avenue line in the Bronx, and perhaps the Brighton line in Brooklyn. It would have no overlapping platforms with the regular subway, and joint stations would have fare control between services. It would include an express subway direct from Jamaica to GCT, as well as local stops on 2nd Avenue. The Hudson line could be used to provide snobway service to the Upper West Side.
A snobway would be easier to finance, if you assume people would go for it, because of the higher fare and the ability to sell station naming rights. It would also "solve" any future crowding problems on the subway -- if the Lex is crowded, pay up and take the snobway, if you can't afford it, too bad.
The question is, if a snobway was available, would it get all the subsidies and capital improvements, and would the subway be left to rot. My guess is yes, so I don't like the idea. Extend the regular subway to LaGuardia. Us regular people will ride it.]
Specifically, the median income of travellers at LGA is stunningly high--only 18% have incomes below $40,000/year, and the mean income is an amazing $91,000. If you build soup kitchens on Park Avenue, don't expect people to come.
More generally:
1. The one real justification for building links to the areas airports is that businesses list poor airport access as one of their main reasons for wanting to leave the City. Otherwise, we'd be better off spending the money on other areas of the subway system that serve more people and so would do more good.
Businesses pay the bills, and that means that from my perspective if their requests are reasonable they come first. As I've said, you don't lift people out of poverty by providing services, you lift them out by giving them jobs. But even that distinction is neither here nor there if you can't provide services because there aren't any businesses and prosperous residents to pay the taxes.
2. I see nothing wrong with providing services to the middle class. On the contrary, New York City has done a pretty fair job of driving out it's middle class residents in favor of the very rich and the very poor. That doesn't do good things for the City's economy, for its integrity as a community, and for the middle class itself, which it seems to me has the same right to appropriate schools and transportation as everyone else.
3. If the City wants to be competitive with the suburbs, both as a place to live and a place to work, it has to provide middle class people with the amenities they're used to. People who live and work in the suburbs have an average commute of 20 minutes in the comfort of their cars. For the City, not providing a comparable level of overall servies and amenities is the equivalent of slow economic suicide. In some cases that's not practical--the great density of the City and the cost of construction makes it impractical to build more than one sytem of public transportation.
4. That being said, I do not think a general upgrade of the subway system would be right *because of the poor.* It doesn't make sense to charge a poor person for amenities he doesn't need and can't afford. It doesn't make sense for the City to provide poverty-level service to middle class people who can obtain better in suburban communities. The trick, therefore, is to provide both levels of service insofar as possible, keeping in mind that when a service is subsidized the middle class is picking up most of the tab anyway.
5. For political reasons, the government of New York State and the Port Authority are currently weighted towards suburban communities. The City must compete for middle class residents with these communtities.
5. The best way to help the poor is to improve their incomes. Subsidies are wasteful and inefficient, because they distort the economic picture and frequently benefit the wrong people. Frankly, I suspect that most of the City's poor would rather spend $700 million on rent and necessities than a subway to LaGuardia, where they rarely go anyway. Help people earn decent incomes; they'll figure out what they need.
6. And the best way to improve the incomes of the poor is to give them jobs, which takes us back to 1.
I passed through South Station, Boston, this morning, and AMTRAK has set-up a model simple railroad layout in the center of the waiting room. One loop has a model ACELA train running, and another has a model "freight" train running (with Santa & gifts, etc.). The layout is in a Christmas holiday theme, of course. I believe it's G gauge (larger than Lionel!).
Well, I guess they telling the truth about Acela going to Boston by 2000 after all!!!
BTW - Anyone know where Amtrak hides these things? I know there's supposed to be one or 2 in Philly, along with an HHP-8. Anyone know where one can get a view?
Also, anyone know anyone who could get their hands on a testing schedule? I'd love to see one in action up here, and I'm not that far from the NEC (Hartford's only redeeming advantage is it's an hour or so away from any of the important places in the world (NYC and Boston))
There was (still there to my knowledge) a train (second one to be sent here) which is tested late at night between Philly and Harrisburg. To see it, you have to be on an Amtrak train (not sure about SEPTA) just north of 30th Street and it is to the west (I think) of where the Amtrak train is.
Would you please tell me what tokens cost now for the subway. I live in Florida now and will be visiting for the holidays. Also would you happen to know LIR rates from Penn Station to Valley Stream. Thanks!
[Would you please tell me what tokens cost now for the subway. I live in Florida now and will be visiting for the holidays. Also would you happen to know LIR rates from Penn Station to Valley Stream. Thanks!]
The basic subway fare is $1.50 per ride. Most people use MetroCards (plastic fare cards) instead of tokens these days. You get a free ride for every $15 you put on a MetroCard. Depending on your length of stay and travel plans, you might be better off with a 7-day unlimited use MetroCard, which allows you to ride all you want for $17. There's also a one-day unlimited use MetroCard, called a "fun pass," that costs $4.
Valley Stream LIRR fares are $4.25 each way, $6.25 during rush hour.
You should probably visit the official site of the subways and LIRR at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/ for such information. This is not the official site for fare information-- although you may recieve responses here keep in mind they are not necessarily "official" information.
Please, its the LIRR!!! I once read somewhere the LIRR is the ONLY railroad in the world where "railroad" is two words!!!
INDIANA RAIL ROAD CORP (INRD)
NEW HOPE & IVYLAND RAIL ROAD (NHRR)
OTTER VALLEY RAIL ROAD (OV)
The LIRR was incorporated on April 24, 1834 as the "Long Island Rail Road Company". However, looking at old timetables, booklets and tickets that I have, there seems to have been times when they freely used "Railroad". Perhaps it was just a lack of attention to detail or maybe the name of the company really did change. I haven't done any research in this area but I wonder if, with all the bankruptcies, receiverships, etc. that plagued the LIRR in its early years, there were times when it was "Railroad". Both Seyfried and Ziel use "Rail Road" exclusively in their books. I would appreciate any information that anyone has on this.
Yeah, Bob, I noticed that in the Seyfried book you lent me. Seyfried himself mentioned early in the book that the LIRR first when under the spelling "Rail Road" but later -- and at an undetermined date -- they went under "Railroad". Being an historian, he opted to use "Rail Road" throughout his book.
Please keep us informed on this topic.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually at the turn of the last century, it was quite Proper English to separate compound words like that. Baseball was properly spelled Base Ball well into 1920's and 30's for another example...That disappeared about the same time that a persons nickname stopped having quotation marks around it....For example, Babe Ruth's name will appear in print as "Babe" Ruth well into the 20's...
The name in their state charter dated 1834, actually reads Long Island Rail Road.
At their headquarters in Jamaica, Queens. The sign on the facade of the building proclaims "Long Island Rail Road Co." I think that is your answer. Most likely ticket and timetable printers made the error of combining "Rail" & "Road". I reciently saw Mr. Seyfried on the Parlor car fantrip (LIST-NRHS) And asked him this question and he also said that the official name of the R.R. is : "The Long Island Rail Road Company"
The MTA decided to "modernize" the LIRR in one leap a decade or so ago, by announcing it was now the "Long Island Railroad" and the ever-correct New York Times began referring to it as the "LIR" (as in the title of this post).
BUT:
1. This change was never officially made--it's still the "Rail Road" and
2. In the U.S. railroad is "RR" anyway, whether it's one word or two. Did you ever stop at an "R" crossing? A single "R" in the U.S. stands for "Railway" as in Southern Railway, which was abbreviated SR.
And while on the subject, don't take variations in terminology on railroad ephemera (like tickets, timetables) too seriously. In decades past, businesses weren't always so compulsive about these.
For example, at the time I was writing about the SIRT (which, BTW, is still legally SIRTOA, not SIR) it was the "Staten Island Rapid Transit RAILWAY Company" yet I have a check mailing envelope they sent me that says "Staten Island Rapid Transit RAILROAD."
Don't forget the Southern Rail Road of New Jersey or SJRR.
Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned from the Philly transit strike. We've go Philly people on the site.
What happened to ridership, public funding, and downtown business activity? How was morale and performance after the strike -- did service reliability and absenteeism to up or down?
(Had a BIE and a 20 minute delay with some excuse about debris on the track today. Hmmm.)
I know that the strike resulted in causing my mother to purchase a car.
Many people are tired of being at the whim of rude and lazy SEPTA employees.
Ridership did go down and has only recently come back to pre-strike(6/1/98-7/10/98 IIRC).
After the strike ended, SEPTA opened up the system. Free rides on all lines and equipment the weekend following the end of the strike.
I haven't noticed a marked change in performance or employee activity, but here's the thing. You can usually better gauge that sort of thing from buses. And since I absolutely loathe SEPTA buses and never ride them, I can't say.
As for downtown, not many business had long-term affects if any. Remember, the Regional Rail network was still running so they became extremely popular during the strike and some found them a better way around.
The most we've been hearing about SEPTA now is equipment problems-mainly escalators/elevators that don't work and unsafe buses.
Yes I was reading the Philly DailyNews 2 Weeks ago about the Unsafe Busses. The Supervisers Ordered there workers to put Inspection Stikers and Busses that did not pass the PA state Inspection. They called it Lick'em and Stick'em. This Put SEPTA Bus Divers and Riders and Risk. Now PENNDOT will take over.
Larry,
BIE's come and they go regarless of the reason they need investigating. Without even the threat of a STRIKE a BIE has no time limit to investigate the cause if not for debris on the roadbed god forbid people have been found under the train causing the emergency brake application. The Operator must check around the train and a sufficient behind the train, so to say it'll take 5 minutes is a lotta BULL.
Yes I remember the Philly SEPTA Strike. I payed close attention on my Philly Channels Like News 3 and KYW 1060 covered it well. I watched Channel 6 when the Strike happened at 12PM meaning People rode SEPTA to work But had to Walk Home. I remember Seeing the Pickets at 69 Street and seeing SEPTA Employees challenge the people who got too close to there Picket line. I saw on Channel 3 during the Big City Hall Rally our own Willy James rally up the crowd of SEPTA workers and said We wouldn't take this in New York. I must say I fell out of my seat when hearing that after selling us out by Reopening our Contract. The SEPTA City Division Workers also Blocked Commuter trains at least 4 diffrent times. That may be a Idea for us Because that hurt SEPTA the Most in my Opinion. It was also a violent Strike. A SEPTA security Guy was shot in his van packed around Union Headquarters. The Guy was only Injured but thats not the point.
I did go and Talk to a SEPTA Motorman after the strike and they said they got the Money but they lost more then they got and More Harassment from Supervision and More Work by going in and out at the Terminals.
Also those that crossed the Picket Line did suffer some kind of Violents.
I was around Philly during the strike and I can tell you that the central bussiness district just died after 5 PM. I was visiting Penn and I was walking back to 8th and Market to catch PATCO at about 6 PM and Center City was just a ghost town. Nobody was around. The normally bussling Galery Mall was deserted and 90% of the stores had closed early. I was lucky to find a chineese place to get a quick bite to eat before I headed home. If you look at things today, at 6 PM the Galery is a zoo, packed with people all shopping and spending. So I'd have to say that many of the small time bussniesses lost big.
"I was around Philly during the strike and I can tell you that the central bussiness district just died after 5 PM."
So, nothing was any different from usual.
Had to say it,
Chuck
Chuck, when's the last time you were in Center City after 5 PM? Take a walk down there today and you'll see something markedly different.
As Subway Steve said, the strike had an effect but mostly on the transit dependent (boy, wasn't that obvious?). The real effect was not a good one for transit - life went on pretty much as normal for 40 days for most people, commuters got to work, there were no major traffic disasters as there have been in the past, and Regional Rail got a big shot in the arm! The big lesson was that, unlike in previous strikes, Phila folks just aren't as dependent on SEPTA as they once were. Places like the Gallery were hurt since, if you have to drive, it's easier to drive and park free at a suburban mall than come downtown, pay thru the nose, and shop at the same stores. Same with folks who shopped after work - with many people car-pooling or taking trains (which don't run as well after the peaks as the City Transit lines in Center City)) - they didn't hang around.
One huge effect was on the reverse commute - many city folks couldn't get to suburban jobs. This was felt big-time.
SEPTA still hasn't gained back all the riders lost due to this strike. Some stayed on the trains. Others bought cars. All in all, SEPTA lost and probably will never get the riders back. The strike was a significant blow to transit in Phila.
It's good to hear that Center City has some life again. I used to be down there two or three times a year through about 1995 -- Center City would be dead by 6 PM. Even that mall-like thing (is that the Gallery?) near the CIGNA building was empty.
Now I don't spend as much time in Philly anymore -- once a year, 3 days for the Penn Relays. Sounds like this year I'll have to head out of the hotel after the races and see all that's going on rather than assuming nothing's changed.
Chuck
I've noticed that, too. After about 7:00 PM or so, everything seems to
close in Center City Philly. On Saturdays, the last outbound R2
commuter train to Marcus Hook departs Market East Station at 8:20 PM,
and Sunday, 7:20 PM. For some reason, all the other lines seem to run
much later. A few years ago, 24 hour service on the Market-Frankford
and Broad Street Lines were discontinued. Why can't Philly be like
New York City...whith many restaurants and stores staying open 24
hours a day, or at least staying open late at night, as well as
resuming 24 hour service on the rapid transit lines? I go into Philly
often, and I have friends who live in the city, and it would be great
to see Philly, just like New York City, become a "City That Never
Sleeps"!!
I agree. I haven't lived in Philly long enough to have seen 24-hour service. Why was it discontinued? That is a shame.
Bars don't close 'til 2:00 around here. It might help drunk driving incidents of transit was available until at least 3:00...
Actually most of NYC sleeps. Midtown, or parts of it, never sleeps, but if the NIMBYs had their way it would sleep too.
What was that old WC Fields Saying. I went to Philly one day and found it closed. No changes yet huh?
Actually most of NYC sleeps. Midtown, or parts of it, never sleeps, but if the NIMBYs had their way it would sleep too
NIMBY stands for:
N Numbskull
I Imbecile
M Moron
B Birdbrain
Y Yokel
"After about 7:00 PM or so, everything seems to close in Center City Philly."
Where exactly in center city are you talking about? I'm assuming you mean the business district around Market St. That dies when the business day is over - just like Wall St.
I lived in Center City Philly before moving to the Village in NY. There are MANY places that are bustling with activity in Philly well after 7:00. Go to Old City on the first Friday of the Month for First Friday's. Go to Chestnut east of 4th street, especially on the weekends. This area is packed with high end restaurants and bars (Paradigm, Roccoco, Plough & Stars . . .) 13th and Walnut doesn't die down until 3:30 or 4:00 on Weekends. And unlike NY, philly hasn't swept all the tranny hookers off the streets yet.
Last call, not closing, is 2:00am. Some clubs serve till 3:30. And some stay open without serving 'till 5:00am (Shampoo) and sometimes even later with permission.
Philly has many restaurants that stay open until at least Midnight. And more have opened in the past 2 years than in any time in memory before that. Center City is experiencing quite a revival. Maybe that's why rental vacancies are less than 1% (sound like NY?) and real estate is finally taking off. It's not NY, but that's part of philly's charm. Most people there wouldn't want to be JUST as busy as NY.
And back to transit, the loss of 24 hour service on the EL was a sad moment for me. I grew up on the El since I lived near Bridge & Pratt. In High School I knew the exact schedule to the minute and depended on it since I couldn't afford a car. The fact is, Septa couldn't justify 24 hr service with the ridership levels they had. But they still have better service than most cities - 7 day/week rail service.
Fellow SubTalkers,
I've been told by more than a few SEPTA people that, although lack of ridership was somewhat of a concern, the primary reason that the El and the Broad Street Subway were closed at night (with "Nite Owl" service provided via bus) was a concern about crime. Apparently, it's "pretty difficult to police the stations and trains" and people "feel safer waiting on the street" (someone else's words). The single biggest "plus", according to a lady friend of mine who works late at Allegheny (nee Hahnemann) Hospital is that the transfer at City Hall is now a simple "walk to the next bus" affair, whereas it used to involve walking through the labyrinth of City Hall/15th Street Station. She says she doesn't mind the few extra minutes the bus takes at night, since there's hardly any traffic.
Will, it's confusing (I know!) but Allegheny (nee Hahnemann) was a couple of names ago. When Allgheny went belly up, Tenet took over and started calling it Allegheny-Hahnemann. To simply that handle, it's back to Hahnemann now (and Tenet shares it with Drexel University!).
You are correct - when the owl service ended on the subway and el in '92, the concern was more crime-related than a transit issue. There was also the complaint of the TWU about cashiers left alone at some stations (for many years, the less busy stations became pay-on-the-
train after 12 Midnight, which led to problems at stations with no cashier to "watch" over things). SEPTA folks also took the hint from Toronto, where several of SEPTA's then managers had served TTC, and decided that the crime problem, coupled with the opportunity to have 4-5 hours of non-operation each night for maintenance, etc, made the sale for bus service in the owl.
A contributing aspect was the proliferation of homeless folks especially in the Center City concourse system. You may notice that the concourse closes at night (different entrances close at different times). The net result is that the subway system is cleaner and a lot less reeking of "eau de pee". Another non-transit reason.
Interestingly, the subway-surface cars which provide owl operation, 10, 13 and 36, operate in the tunnel during the owl period except for the regular Monday shutdown when they go to 40th & Market. Free transfer is provided to the El owl buses at 15th and 30th and the Subway owl buses at 15th. Juniper St station is closed during the owl period - cars still pass thru and catch up time but patrons are discharged at 15th inbound and the first outbound stop is at City Hall /15th.
The owl buses have a timed transfer at 15th/Market/Kennedy which was SEPTA's concession to the safety and convenience of passengers who must transfer. While I have never observed this in person (not being a night owl myself any more!) I've heard it works well.
As Francis noted, parts of Phila are 24-hour operations. Most of these cater to auto users. SEPTA cut most owl operations in 1975. partly as a response to budget problems but equally to reflect the downturn in overnight ridership. Unfortunately, even weekend ridership on many lines is a far cry from what it was 20-25 years ago. It could be argued that the lousy headways on many lines don't help, but this becomes a circular argument quickly. On the skeletal owl network that SEPTA has, rider volumes are very low, and I wouldn't be surprised to see owl service cut back even more in the future.
Actually, the overnight bus service is every 15 minutes, which is better than the old owl train service which was every half-hour, with the conductor having a bus-type coin deposit machine next to him in the one-car (some cars were double-ended) train. So it is hard to complain about it.
One question... Does the Owl Market St. replacement bus allow people on or off at 19 and 22 Streets? It should because express service in the middle of the night is meaningless and why make people walk all the way to 15 or 30 St. at 3AM?
Actually, if you believe certain bus stop signs on Market St, the owl buses make the same stops as the surface routes. I've also been told that this is the case on Market St in West Phila and on Kensington Ave in Kensington (both beneath the El). It makes sense, especially with the dearth of other owl services, that patrons should be served at the nearest stop and not necessarily the nearest el or subway stop.
What I can't figure is why the subway-surface cars still run in the subway all night. Are the sub-surface stops safer (remember, one of the reasons for the owl buses was to get people off so-called dangerous lonely subway and el platforms during periods when cashiers often were not on duty and headways were wide). In my experience, some of the sub-surface stations can be scary places even during the day (and there is no cashier or other human presence at most of them). 22nd eastbound has a particular problem at school dismissal times, sufficiently bad to warrant on-foot police presence both in the station and on the surface.
I have heard that there was some thought given to operating the owl services on the sub-surface lines which provide all-night runs completely with buses but nothing ever came of it. If buses can replace rapid transit in off-hours, they certainly could fill in for trolleys.
The subway-surface routes run all night? Gosh, I should have know that, being that I live in Philly, but I guess I never thought about it.
How on eath does that work at 15th and 13th Streets, where fare control is shared with the MFL? Esp. 13th, where you have to walk along the MFL platform to reach the subway-surface platform?
10, 13 and 36 operate all-night service (with 36 going only as far as Island/Elmwood). They don't run in the subway on Monday nights and this allows routine maintenance, etc (once upon a time, this was Thursday nights for some reason). They make the last inbound stop at 15th eastbound and pick up again at 15th westbound, running through Juniper which is closed. At 15th eastbound, there is no way to enter except from the El cashiers (and those on the east side of the mezzanine are normally only open in the PM peak). I don't know how they prevent passengers from descending down to the El platform once they've come up from the subway-surface side. At 15th westbound, I've been told that the cashier booth is closed and fares are paid on the car (I've also heard that 30th works the same way).
Juniper is closed and cars run through. Stopping to recover schedule time (as needed) is done at 15th westbound.
There is an article in today's Daily
News about a scam in which an expended MetroCard is
folded across the magnetic strip which causes it to work
again. Anyone ever see this happen? Swiping a Subway Ride
[There is an article in today's Daily News about a scam in which an expended MetroCard is folded across the magnetic strip which causes it to work again. Anyone ever see this happen?]
Some hackers first discovered this trick over a year ago. Supposedly, the turnstiles were reconfigured to reject folded cards, but it looks like that didn't work.
TOKEN SUCKING -- YECCH
TOKEN SUCKING -- YECCH I don't think beating a fare is worth the chance of getting HEPATITIS B or WORSE
Did you read the article in detail? The cops sprayed mace into the slots to prevent that. Is anyone convinced that the MTA's Inspector General needs to find another job and how many out there are angry to the loss of $800 Million dollars? Stay tuned, the Hall of Shame will return after these messages.
Yeah, but what about BEFORE they started using Mace. Thank GOD for the N.Y.P.D. !!!
Can you get a card reader/writer and re-code the Metro Cards? You wouldn't think it would be that hard.
someone would need to steal the encoder and the computer which would have to be connected to the central computer in order to do that.
When the booth computers communication to the area control goes down cards cannot be read or encoded someone with that as an intent would need plenty of inside support to do a scam like that. Its not as easy as stealing the card encoder from a booth along with its terminal..
I just thought the cards had a "value" coded on them that the machine read and subtracted from. When you swipe them is a check made with a central mainframe where all the math is done? This would make sence with the amount of time the card passes through the machine, but how is the check preforned on a bus that is "disconnected" from network and wouldn't the sheer volume of riders crash the system? I think some transit lines (like PATCO) encode "vaule" on the ticket that can be read and altered by anyone who has hardware. Furthermore, what prevents people "cloneing" somebody else's Metro Card.
The system stores the data from each transaction, which is then sent to the central computer. The computer will keep a log and put a card with discrepancies on the "block list" which is downloaded by all the turnstiles and fareboxes to prevent reuse of the bad cards.
So the Turnstyles/Fareboxes do read/write to the Metro Cards, but at the end of the day all the transaction logs are sent to a mainframe for processing and if a 15$ card has been used and then shows up as 15$ again it will be blocked. But they checks are not instant so you could scam the system for a time. Did I get it right? Is there really a computer in each FB and TS? How is the info sent to the mainframe?
The busses must be connected at the depot.
The stations are wired by fiber optics.
There's a PC in every bus depot & subway station. They're actually "dumb terminals" as all the thinking/processing goes on at the several mainframes ... yes there's more then one. That's why when the system goes down the Station Agent can't create/update MCs. At the bus depot we can continue to collect info., i.e. probe a bus if the system goes down. The system is "scheduled" down from 11 PM to 3 AM, but I think they leave to subway terminals "up".
The list of bad/stolen/miss-used cards is called a "Negitive List", it was orig. called a "Black List" but that was politically incorrect so it was changed. The orig. program was written in Tenn.
Mr t__:^)
Several years ago ,a tv repairman near me (upper east side) was arrested for cloning single fare Metrocards.The method involved using 2 VCRs one to play the mag track on the other to record (duplicate)it.
When I first got a M.C. in nov `95 I examined the mag track with a product used in audio recording called Magna-see,you paint it on a recorded area and when dry it shows the magnetic pattern`s orientation. Since the M.C. mag track is approx 1/2in.high a VCR sync or audio track probably would work. Due to the fact that cards are cancelled by serial # and cannot be re-used this method of duplication would only work for single use cards so the card has to be re-written for each ride. Alot of work just to save 1.50.
BTW The repairman was only caught because he began selling cloned cards-prety stupid!
Please know that some of the folks at the TA just monitor MC useage & look for abnormal patterens ... they carry guns too.
Mr t__:^)
Reminds me of the old line the Government used to give about monitoring all international phone conversations with some mysterious "super computer".They claimed to be able to detect the presence of such words as assination and president if used in a conversation.
This assertion was nonsense,speech recognition did not exist out side the labs of IBM. Infact even today the most powerful machines can not monitor the thousands of international calls not to mention foreign langauges. Still it was good for a laugh as was your post!
Thanks, Rob.
//Reminds me of the old line the Government used to give about monitoring all international phone conversations //
You might want to check out:
http://www.aclu.org/echelonwatch/index.html
(really has very little to do with the aclu, but its a good jumping off point to other better pages)
An interesting document but this system as other speech recognition methods still relies on supposed patterens of speech.As pointed out in the summary such systems will not catch purposefully encrypted or cryptic speech or text.Assuming that one a terrorist is stupid enough to discuss his actions on an unsecure phone or internet line he can still defeat such systems by the simple use of cryptic speech eg.substitute "take out the trash" for "asassinate so and so"etc.
As yet there is still no substitute for human monitoring and interpretation in these cases,and given the pace of scrambling tecnology the gouvernmont will face a truly formidable task in fight organized crime and terrorism. My guess is that human intelligence and infiltration will still be paramount.
Articles in the print editions of today's Daily
News and today's Post indicate there is again
discussion of the possibility of a regional card that will
work on city and suburban systems. Maybe there is hope?
(Maybe there is hope)
Only if the MTA agrees to pay a fee to PATH and NJT for letting them use its system. It seems that regionalism always means NYC gets screwed. If NYC will not be screwed, it won't happen.
Isn't the city getting screwed enough as it is, subsidizing the ridiculous PATH 1$ fare?
Won't PATH and NJT have to replace all their current electronic fare equipment in order to accept Metrocards?
NJT has GFI & Cubic. NYC is Cubic. Both have boxes that take dip/swipe cards, so all that would be needed is for the MTA to auth. GFI getting the code to put MC stuff on their cards. The NYCDOT "privates" wanted to keep the GFI fareboxes & bill collecting, but the MTA wouldn't give GFI the code, the rest is history.
Mr t__:^)
[Only if the MTA agrees to pay a fee to PATH and NJT for letting them use its system. It seems that regionalism always means NYC gets screwed. If NYC will not be screwed, it won't happen.]
That does seem to be the way of things, doesn't it?
I hope NYC will hold firm before it agrees to something this time around.
[Only if the MTA agrees to pay a fee to PATH and NJT for letting them use its system. It seems that regionalism always means NYC gets screwed. If NYC will not be screwed, it won't happen.]
That does seem to be the way of things, doesn't it?
I hope NYC will hold firm before it agrees to something this time around.
It's not always an easy equation. Improvements that benefit suburban passengers benefit City businesses and the region, but they also make the City less competitive with the suburbs. It seems to me the only answer that truly benefits the region, rather than hurting it while robbing from one area to subsidize another, is strong cooperation on the basis of equity.
They mention PATH and NJT buses as being the targets for this MetroCard expansion. How about including the Westchester BEE-line buses?
Some of the Liberty Bee Line already have NYC fareboxes. Mr t__:^)
Looks like quite a doozy. Several fire engines were heading west on 14th Street about a half hour ago. I didn't take much notice at first, until another employee noted that there was a huge cloud of smoke billowing past our building - which is at Fifth Avenue and 14th Street, a long avenue block away from the L station! I naturally moseyed on over to investigate, and saw at least seven or eight engines on the scene, blocking 14th Street and a couple of lanes on Sixth (14th has since reopened). At least two hose lines were running down into the L station. F and PATH service were running normally along Sixth. As of a few minutes ago, there's still quite a bit of smoke coming out of the L station.
Interesting -- the TA's status hotline is reporting that as of 10:55 AM, L, N and R trains are bypassing the station at Union Square due to a smoke condition, but makes no mention of anything going on at 6th Avenue.
Perhaps smoke is emanating from a fire in the L tunnel between the 6th Avenue and Union Square stations -- is it unusually warm in your building today, Peter?
Chuck
[Interesting -- the TA's status hotline is reporting that as of 10:55 AM, L, N and R trains are bypassing the station at Union Square due to a smoke condition, but makes no mention of anything going on at 6th Avenue.
Perhaps smoke is emanating from a fire in the L tunnel between the 6th Avenue and Union Square stations -- is it unusually warm in your building today, Peter?]
It looks as if the fire is or was close to the Sixth Avenue end. There are a couple of emergency exits leading to the L tunnel right on the corner of Fifth Avenue, and no smoke ever came out of them and no emergency personnel have used them.
I was on an R train heading downtown towards 14th street. The conductor annouced that we would be bypassing 14th street. Then he annouced that he would be temporarily shutting off the A/C. As we passed through 14th street, the platform was dark (no lights on).
The last time I road the New Franklin Shuttle -- a little over a week ago -- I forgot to post that I noticed the old Dual Contracts BMT-style canopy ironworks was missing. I assume it was cut-up and melted down, sigh :-(
Am I the only one who is disappointed about the shuttle being rebuilt? While the new line is nice, the old line had a lot of history remaining, since this line wasn't really fixed up over the years. I remember the old connection at Franklin/Fulton, the old platform extensions at Botanic Gardens, the Dean St. stop, etc.
Progress is good, but not entirely, I guess.
Am I the only one who is disappointed about the shuttle being rebuilt?
Yes, a lot was lost, especially the classic turn-of-the-century L station at Franklin-Fulton. For all its nice touches, the new station is harsh where the old station was softened by trees and age.
But I fear the alternative was abandonment--the old structure had been allowed to deteriorate so far. And I give the TA high marks for some of the nice touches--the decorations in the stations, the tribute to classic BMT design in the new Park Place stationhouse.
BTW, the new Franklin-Fulton station appears designed for larger crowds than I would expect will usw the line under current circumstances.
I often thought that if the Franklin Shttle was ever to be abandoned, it should have been preserved in the awful state it was as a monument (and warning) to future generations about the perils of neglecting the infrastructure of this city. Ditto with the Manny B.
You may still get your wish about the Manny B.
The NYC Landmarks Commission could have designated the Franklin Avenue Shuttle ROW a landmark many years ago. Having been one of the borough's oldest surviving (and workable) railroad lines, I'm sure it would have qualified.
That is the kind of thing that could have been instigated by the ERA in conjunction with some local Central Brooklyn Political organization and the grass-roots community. That was a lost opportunity to show involvement by railfans in a current rapid transit issue.
Oh well, let me get down from the soapbox...
Doug aka BMTman
[ NYC Landmarks Commission ]
How about the Avenue H stationhouse? ...
Good point, Paul!
I might give the Brooklyn Historical Society a call to find out how to go about getting Landmark status for rapid transit lines and/or sturctures. This could produce some intriguing questions. For instance, would a group or organization have to get approval from the MTA/NYCT before approaching the NYC Landmarks Commission? Could prove to be a very educational exercise in legalities if nothing else.
I'll post any results I find here to www.rapidtransit.com
Doug aka BMTman
[But I fear the alternative was abandonment--the old structure had been allowed to deteriorate so far. And I give the TA high marks for some of the nice touches--the decorations in the stations, the tribute to classic BMT design in the new Park Place stationhouse.]
Another thing too - the fact that such a massive renovation job was completed in less time than forecast and (as I believe to be the case) within budget is a hopeful sign. It shows that infrastructure work *need not* be a disaster.
[...] such a massive renovation job was completed in less time than forecast [...]
I really think the TA has discovered that giving themselves very generous completion times is very good politics.
To paraphrase Mr. Micawber:
"Scheduled completion time: one year, one month. Actual completion time: one year. Result: praise."
"Scheduled completion time: 11 months. Actual completion time: one year. Result: demonstrations."
[[...] such a massive renovation job was completed in less time than forecast [...]
I really think the TA has discovered that giving themselves very generous completion times is very good politics.]
Even leaving the forecasts aside, it seems as if the job was completed in a fairly short amount of time (14 months?) considering the amount of work involved. Remember that we're talking about an entity that needs a year to repair an escalator. The TA really seems to have gotten its act together on the Franklin Shuttle renovation. Time will tell if they'll be able to do as well on other jobs.
Wow. If only the MTA had said that the Manhattan Bridge repair project would take 20 years to complete when the first service disruptions began in 1986, then the TA would look great if/when both sides open in 2002.
(Notice I included "if")
[BTW, the new Franklin-Fulton station appears designed for larger crowds than I would expect will usw the line
under current circumstances.]
Perhaps they're anticipating all the crowds that'll be there when the Manhattan Bridge is closed and a lot of people ride up the shuttle to take the A/C into Manhattan. By the way, when the Brooklyn Bridge had it's 100th anniversary in 1983, much was made about how it was built 9 times stronger than necessary because of concerns about graft. How about rebuilding the Fulton el and running a line over the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row/City Hall? You could even provide paper transfers to other lines, or run it into City Hall BMT lower level with some trains going up Broadway. Gotta be cheaper than building tunnels. Talk about an old solution to a new problem....
Last time I went through there, there APPEARED TO BE a chunk of some station's canopy, maybe Dean Street's, lying upside down in a scrap-yard alongside the Shuttle just about where the old Dean Street station used to be. It may still be there, if anyone wants to go and salvage it.
Wayne.
Wayne, the canopy IS GONE from the junk yard lot where it had been seen about a month ago.
Here's an update: I was so curious about the canopy that I visited that specific "junk yard" on my lunch hour today to investigate. I discovered that this former auto scrap yard was commendeered by the New Franklin Shuttle construction contractor. Turns out that the remaining pieces of Shuttle memoribilia is scant (a subway entrance marker made of corrugated aluminum w/"M" logo cube on top). The yard appears to be in the process of being cleared out by the contractor as their work on the line is basically finished. I did leave my name and number with the team should they find any other items on their lots (they have other work locations along the FS ROW).
Too bad none of us made a move on it earlier....:-(
Doug aka BMTman
Am I the only one who is disappointed about the shuttle being rebuilt? While the new line is nice, the old line had a lot of history remaining, since this line wasn't really fixed up over the years. I remember the old connection at Franklin/Fulton, the old platform extensions at Botanic Gardens, the Dean St. stop, etc.
Progress is good, but not entirely, I guess.
No, you're not the only one. I mentioned in a previous post that they should have restored the Franklin Shuttle to the way it was in the early 1900's instead of redoing it, wooden platforms and all (brand-new of course). I also mentioned that they should have done the same thing with the pre-Dual Contracts statons from Alabama Ave. through Crescent St. on the Jamaica line. Anything that's been around that long should be restored, not redone. Hey, I'm Mr. Nostalgia. If I had my way, I'd like it to be 1899 instead of 1999. I'd settle for 1938. I'd like to go back and ride all the els that were gone before I was born.
Hell, let's restore steam power to the els in Brooklyn....LOL
Hell, let's restore steam power to the els in Brooklyn
I'd love to see steam-powered el trains. If the City is so hell-bent on tearing down the els, let them replace the els with tracks at grade level, like the old Culver, West End, Brighton and Sea Beach used to be. Bring back the BU's and put a forney in the front!
Hey, I've grown fond of quiet, air conditioned trains. I'm as nostalgic as the next guy, but some things are best left to history.
OK you take the quiet air conditioned train. Me, I want to take a long trip one way on a BMT Standard and back on an R1. The ceiling fans did a good job of cooling.
OK you take the quiet air conditioned train. Me, I want to take a long trip one way on a BMT Standard and back on an R1. The ceiling fans did a good job of cooling.
I'm with you. Down with the stainless steel beer cans. Give me a BMT Standard! One way. However, I'll take a Triplex for the return trip. If you want cool, how about a convertible BU with the panels removed. Lower the roof and run that in the tunnel. That will be nice and cool!
12/10/99
BMT Lines,
Hell , if you want the ultimate in cooling , Salaam are you reading this? , a standard or D-type with an OPEN railfan window. But hold your ears when you see two yellow flags trackside , that whistle's a killer!
Bill Newkirk
Hey, I remember riding on an old R21/22 with the front railfan window open. What a rush!
If you happen to catch car 7773 with the R-21 storm door at the front of the train, you can still do it! What a rush indeed!
--Mark
If I remember correctly you got a sudden gust of air when you left a tunnel portal going outdoors.
Agreed about that whistle! On one of the cab rides I videoed, the whistle actually caused interference with the picture - you can "see" the sound waves when the whistle blows!
--Mark
Hell , if you want the ultimate in cooling , Salaam are you reading this? , a standard or D-type with an OPEN railfan window. But hold your ears when you see two yellow flags trackside , that whistle's a killer!
The Standards had a front window that opened also. So did all the R-Types with the circular front window; the R-15, 16 and 17, even though it was extremely rare that any were open. The rectangular window on the R-21/22 opened. I think the Multi's and Bluebirds had front windows that opened. If you happen to be a Polar Bear, you would want to open the front window in January.
To each his own, I guess.
To each his own, I guess.
Yup!
Just remember that people pay a premium to ride noisy non-air conditioned museum trains. the quiet air conditioned stuff is only $1.50.
>>>I'd love to see steam-powered el trains. If the City is so hell-bent on tearing down the els, let them
replace the els with tracks at grade level, like the old Culver, West End, Brighton and Sea Beach used
to be. Bring back the BU's and put a forney in the front! <<<
Who needs electricity and steam? Let's bring back Dobbin to the streets of NYC.
Revive the horsecars!
www.forgotten-ny.com
But BMT LINES, that was my point in any earlier post had groups like the Electric Railroader's Association, Local Franklin Shuttle area businesses, and Central Brooklyn Politicians all gotten together and sought for NYC Landmark status for the Line.
The only way to have rebuilt the Shuttle while legally keeping the original "look and feel" would have been through Landmark designation.
I will be trying to get info on doing this for other rapid transit lines and structures. I'm even wondering if this had ever been done before? (I'm sure some places in Europe have made their rail lines historic places -- I know some small towns across the U.S. have done so with ancient steam-train lines).
Doug aka BMTman
What I'd like to know is, if the IRT was so close to the Botanic Gardens station, why did it take them 90 years to knock down a wall and create a transfer?
www.forgotten-ny.com
What I'd like to know is, if the IRT was so close to the Botanic Gardens station, why did it take them 90 years to knock down a wall and create a transfer?
DUH!
What I'd like to know is, if the IRT was so close to the Botanic Gardens station, why did it take them 90 years to knock down a wall and create a transfer?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Probably for the same stupid teason it took almost as long to link the 6th Ave. station on the Canarsie Line with the 6th Ave. IND at 14th St. I don't know about 90 years, but in 1940 when the City took over the BMT and IRT, they should have thought about every possible place for a free transfer between divisions, and built them, or atleas provided paper transfers. Right now, there are 3 stations in close proximity - Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza and Queensbridge. No free transfer!
Kevin, you of all people should have realized that 90 years ago the BMT (then BRT) and the IRT were competitors -- so there was no incentive to create a link between the two.
I recall those days quite well. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Well...OK, they should have knocked down the wall after unification in (1940, I think?)
I was amazed when I made the transfer and saw how it's a distance of only a few feet between the stations!
On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm riding the A,C, or E uptown and want to get back to Flushing, and have missed my LIRR connection at Penn it's absolutely *essential* to change to the B,D, F at 4th Street for an easy transfer to the #7.
I could walk back to Flushing and it seems like it's only a bit longer walk than making a connection from the A/C/E at 42nd St for the #7!
www.forgotten-ny.com
You think that the connection at 42/6 to 5 is closer?
>>>You think that the connection at 42/6 to 5 is closer? >>>
It's definitely much closer. You do have to walk down a corridor but it's not as long as the one between 7th and 8th Avenues for the A/C/E--7 connection.
The OLD Botanic Garden station was further south than the current one is. The new station has the connection at the north end of the station, there was formerly only tunnel (sort of) there. It looks like they had to knock down more than just a wall to create it. The passageway looks new and it's only on the northbound side.
Wayne
But BMT LINES, that was my point in any earlier post had groups like the Electric Railroader's Association, Local Franklin Shuttle area businesses, and Central Brooklyn Politicians all gotten together and sought for NYC Landmark status for the Line.
The only way to have rebuilt the Shuttle while legally keeping the original "look and feel" would have been through Landmark designation.
I will be trying to get info on doing this for other rapid transit lines and structures. I'm even wondering if this had ever been done before? (I'm sure some places in Europe have made their rail lines historic places -- I know some small towns across the U.S. have done so with ancient steam-train lines).
Doug aka BMTman
I totally agree with you. The ERA, the NRHS, and other organizations like them, and all the railfans should have worked feverishly to have the Franklin Shuttle and the 5 stations along the Jamaica Line designted as landmarks. As for people in the community and the politicians, I don't know. I think that the latter 2 groups were the ones pushing for what we see now. Its a damn shame! It seems like every generation gets its turn at seeing another would-be and could-be landmark destroyed. I'm 45. In my lifetime, I've seen Old Myrt, the Third Ave El (Bronx), Culver Shuttle, Jamaica El, and now the old Franklin Shuttle become just a memory. The generation before me saw all the Manhattan Els, the Fulton St. El, Fifth Ave El and the Lexington Ave. El bite the dust. I was 4 when the Polo Grounds Shuttle went, but I didn't know about it until the early '70s. What's left to designate as a landmark? Everything old has been renovated or demolished. Sutter Ave., Livonia Ave., New Lots and E 105th St. on the canarsie line as they once were, are a memory. Same thing with Alabama Ave. through Crescent St. on the J. All the old 1904 elevated stations on the IRT have been redone a long time ago. The wind screens make me want to vomit! When I was a kid in the early '60s, I remember wooden platforms and wooden windscreens with glass windows on the platforms--even on Dual Contracts stations. Where there wasn't windscreen, there was railing. The B'way IRT line and the WP Rd. line in the Bronx (lower portion) had nice ornate railing on the station platforms until the '70s. All the old station signs from every station are gone, also. I'm surprised that the TA didn't rip all the tile mosaic station signs off the walls and replace them with that contemporary crap! In a way they did do that on the B'way BMT and 4th Ave. BMT. As for rolling stock, you know you're getting old when the cars that you remember going into service brand spanking new are now the oldest, and ready to be scrapped. I first said that when the R-27's were done for. Now its the Redbirds. You will know that you are ancient, when you see 75' cars on the scrap track. To me, the wierdest site was seeing R-Type SMEE cars in yellow work livery for the first time!
Hey, a slant R-40 in work service! That's frightening! When they first came out, I said "WOW! Look at the Space Age cars!" Now, some people that post here refer to them as the "Old Slants" or "Old Slant R-40's.
Yeah, I'm right behind you at 40! (You're in good company)
I think one of the reasons that no one has designated an NYC subway station or line for Landmark status before is that the MTA would obviously have to be involved. And we all know too well what that means: the project would get delayed and put aside since the Executive branch would snicker behind their backs that some "special interest rail-nuts" would have the balls to try and tell them how to "run their railroad." And of course having a particular line restored -- not rebuilt -- to it's original specs could mean potential cost overruns since certain ironwork or concrete abutements may have to be costume-made instead of "off the shelf" to match the original specs.
Doug aka BMTman
PS: did I ever tell you that I think your logo is cool?
Yeah, I'm right behind you at 40! (You're in good company)
I think one of the reasons that no one has designated an NYC subway station or line for Landmark status before is that the MTA would obviously have to be involved. And we all know too well what that means: the project would get delayed and put aside since the Executive branch would snicker behind their backs that some "special interest rail-nuts" would have the balls to try and tell them how to "run their railroad." And of course having a particular line restored -- not rebuilt -- to it's original specs could mean potential cost overruns since certain ironwork or concrete abutements may have to be costume-made instead of "off the shelf" to match the original specs.
Doug aka BMTman
PS: did I ever tell you that I think your logo is cool?
As for my logo being cool, thanks. I made the BMT logo from scratch using Adobe Photoshop, and animated it with an A/B photo using Adobe ImageReady. As for the MTA putting a monkey wrench in the works of designating stations landmarks, I don't think that could happen. If the Federal Government designates something as a landmark, the owner of the property is obliged to restore it and keep it up. Aren't they? The City of Philadelphia can't let Independence Hall deteriorate. Also, there are private citizens living in houses along alleys in Philadelphia that date back to Colonial times. These people are obliged to keep their houses as they were in the 1600's and 1700's. They can't just decide that they're going to renovate their properties. But, like I said, what is left to designate. There isn't any untouched or unmodified stations that can be restored anymore, unless they rip out all the modern junk and literally restore them. They would need detailed photographs and original IRT/BRT blueprints to restore a station today to what it used to be.
I don't you think you need necessarily restore something to its original state when it's designated as a landmark, but you probably have to select a point in time.
Even on the Franklin Shuttle, the only part that's really original is the right-of-way south of Park Place, which is quite recognizable from steam days (which the recently rebuilt portion postdates).
While I would like Avenue H restored to its c.1905 appearance, it would be a good start to honor its familiar status by assuring it will stay as it is now, and not get "improved."
Later we can restore the forest, the 2-track surface line, and the steam passenger service ;-)
12/10/99
Landmark status? Wasn't the famed "LOOP" in Chicago designated a landmark?
That EL can't be replaced by a subway. Isn't there one station , wooden platforms and all , restored to it's original appearance?
Bill Newkirk
Landmark status? Wasn't the famed "LOOP" in Chicago designated a landmark?
That EL can't be replaced by a subway. Isn't there one station , wooden platforms and all , restored to it's original appearance?
Yes, I do believe that the Chicago El is a landmark. As for wooden platforms, aren't all the Chicago El platforms still wood? I know that the stations have been modernized, but I think all the platforms are still wood.
If I have the chance, I'll report on that next week - I'll be in Chicago Tuesday and Wednesday, with any luck I'll have time for a quick ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of landmark statuses, I read in a newspaper advertisement recently that the NYC Transit is looking for a contractor to rebuild the West Farms Line (IRT) Stations from Jackson to East Tremont Avs. The stations have National Historic Register Status and the contractor must rebuild the stations in question to an "original look" of the time period in question.
-Stef
Didn't they just rehab these stations?
They would look nicer with those windscreens removed, like Jackson Ave.
Not really. The windscreens were removed from Jackson Av over 10 Years Ago. They did replace the lightning recently, but that's it. The Canopies are worn and need to be replaced. The stairwells leading up to the stations will need replacement (Jackson already had it's steps replaced). It would be nice to if a new booth was erected on the uptown side of Jackson Av, which hasn't had a booth in many, many years. Even the el structure looks lousy! It's time for a paint job, don't you think?
Also, keep in mind that while this rehab is going on, the entire signal system on the White Plains and Dyre Av lines is getting replaced from 149th St and the Concourse to 241 St and Dyre Av, including the E180th and 239th St Yards.
-Stef
I'm STILL pissed that they removed those vintage-looking lights (with the globes) from Jackson Avenue and replaced them with those hideous goosenecks with the pail-shaped helmet shades. The one unique thing about the station and what do they do - they remove it.
Wayne
So much for modernizing the station. Modernization comes with a heavy price, don't you think? I suppose the Franklin Shuttle is a perfect example.
-Stef
So much for modernizing the station. Modernization comes with a heavy price, don't you think? I suppose the Franklin Shuttle is a perfect example.
-Stef
You said a mouthful!
Speaking of landmark statuses, I read in a newspaper advertisement recently that the NYC Transit is looking for a contractor to rebuild the West Farms Line (IRT) Stations from Jackson to East Tremont Avs. The stations have National Historic Register Status and the contractor must rebuild the stations in question to an "original look" of the time period in question.
-Stef
If this is a solid fact, it's the best news that I've heard in a good long time!
Now that there are no leaves on the trees blocking the view it is very easy to see the abandoned trestle alongside the N/B Meadowbrook just south of Stewart Av, a relic from the old Central Branch.
Kevin Walsh, you reading this????
Check out this site for some pictures of the trestle, along with other information on the Central RR of LI
http://www.hempsteadplains.com/trestle.htm
Thanks Bob, I read it a while ago and it was great and very informational. I think I actually found it from a link on your site and put a link to it on my train buff page.
It staggers the imagination to think they reopened the Central Branch to bring building materials to build Levittown and then when it was built they abandoned it. With East Meadow, Levittown, Roosevelt Field and the Source Malls, Nassau County Medical Center, Nassau County Jail, Bethpage, etc,etc,etc... the Central Branch would probably be the most used branch on the LIRR. Look how crowded the N48, N49, N70,N71 and N72's are.
The NIMBYs of Garden City are ALREADY fighting just the thought of any use of the Central branch !
Mr t__:^)
Alexander T. Stewart, the founder of Garden City and the builder of the Central RR of LI, must be turning over in his grave. If it wasn't for the Central RR, Garden City wouldn't even exist.
The NIMBYs do have one valid point, however. Even if we're just talking about using a portion of the old Central ROW for service to the Nassau Hub area and not reactivating the line all the way to Bethpage, the extra train (or perhaps light rail) traffic would probably disrupt the road traffic in the area to an intolerable level, since the line is at grade from just west of Stewart Manor and crosses many major streets.
Anyone care to offer a solution?
Actually there are 2 active stations in Garden City, the Garden City Station and Country Life Press. I think the only other one that was in G.C. was Clinton Road (how they knew he'd become President back then is beyond me), site of a G.C. Firehouse.
Note: I'm not sure if the Mitchell Field or Salisbury Plain stations were in Garden City or not. I think Salisbury Plains was in East Meadow even though it wasn't called that then.
Stewart Manor and Nassau Blvd. stations are also in Garden City; Merillon Ave. station forms part of the border between Garden City and Garden City Park; New Hyde Park is a stone's throw from the NE corner of GC; Mineola is also only about a block away from GC's northern border.
That's 7 stations in total serving one (very affluent) community, yet the Village of Garden City has not provided a single parking space on village property at any of these stations for non-village residents!
There must be something ornery about Garden City residents. Lately they've prevented Lord & Taylor from building a store at the Roosevelt Field Mall, claiming that they're protecting an existing L&T store in Garden City. Trouble is, L&T has announced that the Garden City store is going to be closed on account of low sales, whether or not the Roosevelt Field store is built!
[There must be something ornery about Garden City residents.]
My cousin lives there, and is very pasionate about these issues, otherwise he's a very nice fellow.
Mr t__:^)
Why should they? It would be nice if the parking spaces were there, but I can understand not wanting to spend tax dollars for something that will not benefit your community and, indeed, might end up costing more. Now if the MTA/LIRR were to build and maintain the parking lot (including owning the land) that would be a different situation.
Many of the municipalities on the NJ Coast Line also own parking lots where only their own residents are permitted. But NJT also owns and operates some at other locations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
12/09/99
If you've seen this trestle don't let the sight of it fool you. It looks like a trestle sitting on the ground. Not so , there used to be a road underneath it. The roadway was filled in years ago. I saw a Newsday picture before the back filling job.
Bill Newkirk
Are you sure? I think it was a creek or a brook. I don't ever recall a road there. Also there is a mostly dried up creek/brook (I don't know the difference) along the E/S of the Meadowbrook from Merrick all the way to N/O Front Street near Hempstead Tnpk.
That's the Meadow Brook right next to the parkway. It isn't dried up as much as the stream is mostly below ground level, so it can't be seen unless there was a really heavy rain storm.
12/10/99
Jeff,
I gotta hunt down that Newsday article. If I find it,I'll snail mail it to you. Have no scanner for E-mail yet.
Bill Newkirk
>>>Now that there are no leaves on the trees blocking the view it is very easy to see the abandoned
trestle alongside the N/B Meadowbrook just south of Stewart Av, a relic from the old Central
Branch.
Kevin Walsh, you reading this???? <<<
I am lurking as always.
But...until I expand my site to include Forgotten Long Island, I can't include it. I am starting to use up my already generous 100MB allocation as it is!
why is it like r44-rockway or some others etc.....
HATE THE RAILFAN WINDOW AND ARE GLAD TO SEE IT GO AWAY???
WHAT?????????????????????????????????????............................
ok if you dont like the railfan window sit in the back or middle of the train or WORSHIP THE BART MARTA CHICAGO G F J M Z S 1 6 9 LINES
LONDON UNDERGROUND MIAMI LOS ANGELES METRO systems and others!!!
dummy up get stupid etc ride the back of the train and in the middle
start a ANTI RAILFAN CLUB IN YOUR HONOR!!!!!!
but at least leave those of us alone who do appreciate the untimate
*************>>THE RAILFAN WINDOW<<******************!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you love those slant 40s and older subway cars !!!!!
I don't think you'll find many people on this board who hate railfan windows. What we hate is seeing the same message (or similar ones) 50 or 100 times!
We know you like railfan windows, but saying 100 times that you like them isn't going to make them stay. Nothing is going to make them stay. It's unfortunate, but true. Full-width cabs are designed for greater productivity than 1/3-width cabs, and full-width cabs are not compatible with railfan windows. You're just going to have to enjoy the railfan windows we have left when you come to the city, and eventually learn to live without them.
When you say something once, we listen. We may even agree with you. When you say something twice, we figure maybe you pressed the "post" button twice by mistake. But when you say the same thing over and over again, you look like a crackpot - even if you aren't - and people tune you out.
David
sory but i recieved a e mail from some unidentified r44rockwayEmail
with pictures of the new r 142 or 100+ plus new car
{ of cource no railfan winmdows ) couldnt figure why he hated the
front railfan window and why ??? !!! thank you sorry if i seemed to
wear this subject out would like to shoot vidieos of the last
surviving railfan window equipped cars while they last THANK YOU FOR
NYC CITY SUBWAY RESOURCES !!! the best site on the internet !!!!!
The new CTA full width cabs have clear glass on the left side so you can see out from inside the car The entire cab does not need to be dark just the area behind the controls. I know operators are shy and all but they are mostly nice people as are the people that ride behind the line.
It's a shared ride. Enjoy the experience.
the problem i had is that the blue line leaving the clinton station
for example is that the area is blocked off and or the operator will
not allow you to look out the front window!! maybe i should have asked if i cound mount my vidieo camera on the fornt window press
record and wait until the end of the line 4hour lp mode 8mm ...!!
thank you !!!
Take the LIRR's M1 or M3 Salaam, and if the engineer doesn't have the cab door open you get a great railfan window. The Main Line gets up good speed with great views of RR crossings, Belmont Park, the interlocking at both Mineola (for the Oyster Bay Line) and the great Divide in Hicksville. The stormdoor window is even toddler friendly as it is almost as low (I did say almost) as the R40's. My 3yr old can see well on his tippy toes-I MUST carry him on the Worlds Fair trains on the "7" line.
There's been plenty of discussion about service to the airports here lately, and it seems like there are plenty of misconceptions about mass transit service and airports.
Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines. It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.
In those cities which have good rapid transit to the airport (Chicago and Atlanta come immediately to mind), that's who you'll find on the train. Neither of these groups minds transfering (although in the case of the business traveler, they don't mind as long as the overall trip is about as fast as taking a cab.) Taking these two groups of people alone off the roads will do wonders for traffic.
Vacation travelers are always going to be better served by taxi's or van services. Unless there's a one-seat ride stopping on your front steps, the savings ($6 for a family of 4 on the subway versus $25 for a cab) doesn't justify the frustration of lugging luggage up and down stairs and to and from your local station.
Another thing that people really need to understand when advocating mass transit to an airport is that there are completely different mass transit needs within the airport than there are going to and from the airport. Within the airport, high frequency/low capacity service is needed going between terminals. To and from the airport, relatively less frequent but higher capacity service is needed.
Atlanta is an excellent working example of this -- with MARTA service every 10 minutes or so, but the intra-airport shuttle trains operating about every 90 seconds. Newark will be this way once the monorail is extended to the new NJT station, and JFK will be this way with two connections to the higher capacity services -- one at Howard Beach and one at Jamaica.
Those who advocate reactivation of the Rockaway Branch ROW for "express" service from Penn Station or GCT don't have a viable explanation for where the passengers are going to come from. Sure, it would be neat from a railfan's perspective, but the people who work at the airport don't live in Penn Station or GCT. The worst thing a railfan can do is advocate a service which won't get passengers. If you do that once, you shoot the next three projects down -- no matter how important they are.
The biggest shortcoming is of the Jamaica-JFK monorail is that it won't have stations along the Van Wyck through Queens. Blame that on the bureaucrats and NIMBY politicians.
LGA is unique among major US airports in that the high frequency service between terminals really isn't necessary. Very few passengers transfer between terminals at LaGuardia and given the current space limitations there, that isn't going to change until they drain Flushing Bay. At LGA, you could probably get away with a subway line stopping at the Marine Air terminal, the Central terminal and then between the Delta/Northwest terminal and the USAirways terminal.
You can run the N train to LGA from midtown in about 35 minutes -- no express needed. If the TA can run service every 6 minutes during the day they'll pick up a huge chunk of the business travel segment.
Charles G,
Thank you very much for sharing your opinion with the rail fans. It appears you have done your homework on this manner and should be applauded.
N Broadway Line
Well said, as to LaGuardia. Rail service there is more likely to be successful than rail service to JFK.
At JFK, I believe they hope they'll pick up some commuters transferring from the LIRR or subway. One thing to consider about JFK, relative to other U.S. airports, is the lack of roads. All you've got from most of the metro area is the Van Wyck, whose lower portion is ALWAYS jammed. You may get people taking a cab to the light rail at Jamaica and taking the train to the airport, to avoid the Van Wyck.
12/10/99
For those of you who read my earlier post on Airtrain , the point I made was that the rail to airpoint concept wasn't well thought of. Everyone here just about agrees to reuse the LIRR Rockaway Div , but the P.A. and NIMBY's won't have it.
And further more , they said that if AIRTRAIN takes off (no pun intended) service to midtown Manhattan would eventually happen. Well , didn't the city say with the razing of the Second Ave EL that the Second Avenue subway would also happen ?
Bill Newkirk
[Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines.
It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.]
While I also thank you for your thoughtful comments, I afraid I can't agree with this portion of you comments.
BTW, I was a WORKER at the airport for 15 years.
1. Workers aren't going to be using the long term parking lot, which is the first piece of the project.
2. The Jamaica extention, in my mind, isn't intended for "workers". I think you'll find most of the workers live within 30 minutes of JFK and come from all surrounding areas. Some "suits" may find a LIRR/JFK Express train combination convient, but other then those the business needs to come from travelers.
The old Rockwaway branch WOULD have been the quickest way to get from JFK to La Guardia or Manhattan, but it's not going to be. The best we can hope for is the MTA buying it after it's built. Then you could have a express from Manhattan with a stop at Jamaica for LI travelers & employees. Maybe the N will be extended, but this too isn't as good as using the NY-CT (Hell Gate line) or some other way to link La Gardia & JFK more directly.
Mr t__:^)
[The old Rockwaway branch WOULD have been the quickest way to get from JFK to La Guardia or Manhattan, but it's not going to be. The best we can hope for is the MTA buying it after it's built. Then you could have a express from Manhattan with a stop at Jamaica for LI travelers & employees. Maybe the N will be extended, but this too isn't as good as using the NY-CT (Hell Gate line) or some other way to link La Gardia & JFK more directly.]
Or both, since the added construction could accomodate both airport and subway trains, and the number of travellers would justify both services during the day.
I don't think anyone here disagrees with you, unfortunately the re-use of the old Rockaway & Ridgewood (Ct-NY) branches for passenger service is more unlikely then the 2nd Ave StuBway comming to life.
Mr t__:^)
The Jamaica JFK connector could be the biggest white elephant in the
history of public transportation. Right now the JFK Flyer which runs
from I think Hempstead to JFK might get the award. Whenever I see the
bus run it is almost always empty!!!
[The Jamaica JFK connector could be the biggest white elephant in the
history of public transportation.]
At last, something sensible! $1.5 billion and no one will take it. What a boondoggle!
Why don't they listen to the people who would actually ride the thing, e.g., New Yorkers? Everyone agrees it's a joke. The Train to the Plane was a joke, and this is a sixteen minute faster, $1.5 billion joke.
[The Train to the Plane was a joke, and this is a sixteen minute faster, $1.5 billion joke.]
Well, I wouldn't say it exactly that way. That train was fairly well used, just not by JFK passengers. A lot Manhattan workers from Howard Beach took it ... it was like a LIRR train ride, so many folks found value in the extra cost.
I think if the TA kept it going after the PORT stoped subsidizing it might have started a trend in the subways.
e.g. my mother-in-law needed to switch from the LIRR at Jamaica to a subway because of a LIRR delay ... she said the ride was much longer then the LIRR, so she almost missed her Broadway play. My point is that it would seem that the TA could do a much better job of making Express trains faster (less stops, more speed). This will get more folks out of their cars ... isn't that in all our best interest ?
Relagate the Hippos to local service only & buy more Slants !!!!
Mr t__:^)
[My point is that it would seem that the TA could do a much better job of making Express trains faster (less stops, more speed). This will get more folks out of their cars ... isn't that in all our best interest ?]
I can't argue with that. The subways have really slowed down to a crawl at a time when they should have been sped up.
Ideally, I'd like to see zoned superexpresses to the major business districts with express bypasses, but that's a major investment, and the MTA can't even seem to run the existing system at full speed.
[There's been plenty of discussion about service to the airports here lately, and it seems like there are plenty of misconceptions about mass transit service and airports.
Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines. It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.]
66,000 passengers use LGA every day, and 25,000 employees. Passengers outnumber employees; both groups should be served.
[In those cities which have good rapid transit to the airport (Chicago and Atlanta come immediately to mind), that's who you'll find on the train. Neither of these groups minds transfering (although in the case of the business traveler, they don't mind as long as the overall trip is about as fast as taking a cab.) Taking these two groups of people alone off the roads will do wonders for traffic.
Vacation travelers are always going to be better served by taxi's or van services. Unless there's a one-seat ride stopping on your front steps, the savings ($6 for a family of 4 on the subway versus $25 for a cab) doesn't justify the frustration of lugging luggage up and down stairs and to and from your local station.]
Yes and no. New York isn't Chicago and Atlanta. The long ride to JFK and the other regional airports is listed by area businesses as one of the main reasons they leave the region. That's why a subway extension, which, as in other cities, would serve the groups you mention, is grossly inadequate for New York. Those people can and will hop on the A train and transfer to Airtrain to get to the terminal; at LaGuardia they'll take the train or bus, or drive if that's more convenient.
Tourists entering and leaving the City can and will take cabs or the cheaper group ride services; only a relatively few backpacker types will want to save $10 to get on a jampacked train and negotiate the steps with their bags.
But to serve New York's business community, we need quick, one stop access from the regional business centers. *Not* just subway access, because even if it's just a suit carrier most businessmen will not trek up and down the stairs and change lines fifty times to get to the plane.
Complete one stop access from *cab accessible stations* in the City's business districts will be as convenient as a cab ride, more economical, and much, much faster. It will benefit everybody. And it won't interfere with cheaper subway access for those airport workers who want to save $5 and take the subway to work.
This is not just theory. The Port Authority ran a premium "Train to the Plane" subway/bus service in the subway for several years, and *nobody took it.* The new Airtrain system will cut 16 minutes off the terminal circuit time because it subsitutes a train for the bus. That's trivial. *No one will take it.*
[Another thing that people really need to understand when advocating mass transit to an airport is that there are completely different mass transit needs within the airport than there are going to and from the airport. Within the airport, high frequency/low capacity service is needed going between terminals. To and from the airport, relatively less frequent but higher capacity service is needed.
Atlanta is an excellent working example of this -- with MARTA service every 10 minutes or so, but the intra-airport shuttle trains operating about every 90 seconds. Newark will be this way once the monorail is extended to the new NJT station, and JFK will be this way with two connections to the higher capacity services -- one at Howard Beach and one at Jamaica.
Those who advocate reactivation of the Rockaway Branch ROW for "express" service from Penn Station or GCT don't have a viable explanation for where the passengers are going to come from. Sure, it would be neat from a railfan's perspective, but the people who work at the airport don't live in Penn Station or GCT. The worst thing a railfan can do is advocate a service which won't get passengers. If you do that once, you shoot the next three projects down -- no matter how important they are.]
But that's exactly the opposite of the actual situation. The passengers will become from the business districts and the subways, which interface nicely with Penn Station and GCT. And that's the whole reason we're building airport access--because of the business districts.
*New York is not Atlanta.* Passenger traffic is much higher, justifying low headway service during daytime hours, and traffic in the business districts is a disaster.
[The biggest shortcoming is of the Jamaica-JFK monorail is that it won't have stations along the Van Wyck through Queens. Blame that on the bureaucrats and NIMBY politicians.]
Why slow the thing down for a handful of passengers?
[LGA is unique among major US airports in that the high frequency service between terminals really isn't necessary. Very few passengers transfer between terminals at LaGuardia and given the current space limitations there, that isn't going to change until they drain Flushing Bay. At LGA, you could probably get away with a subway line stopping at the Marine Air terminal, the Central terminal and then between the Delta/Northwest terminal and the USAirways terminal.
You can run the N train to LGA from midtown in about 35 minutes -- no express needed. If the TA can run service every 6 minutes during the day they'll pick up a huge chunk of the business travel segment.]
That's a travel time of 41 minutes, to which you have to add the time it takes to get to the subway station, if there's one nearby--hardly a certainty, since the BMT is not within walking distance of most of the areas businesses. An it would take the train even longer to get downtown.
A cab from the office is at least as fast, probably faster. People will take the cab.
Wow, Josh -- I normally agree with probably 90% of your posts, but on this issue our opinions couldn't be more different.
One thing that stands out to me in all of the discussions on this topic is the entirely different functions of LGA and JFK and that each requires it's own unique solution.
I'm glad you posted those numbers for LGA (66,000 passengers, 25,000 employees) though the number of employees sounds pretty high -- where do you find a source for stats like that?
I agree that air passengers should be a consideration in developing mass transit to the airport, but the employees have to come first. Those 25,000 employees (or whatever the number is) are going to the airport every day -- that makes them much more likely to choose mass transit. They are also more likely to locate their residences along the mass transit line. The passengers are different individuals each day and come from a much wider geographic spread. For these reasons (along with the lugging baggage issue as well as good ol' fashioned anti-transit snobbery) a much smaller percentage of air travelers are going to consider taking the train to the airport.
I realize that New York isn't Chicago or Atlanta, but JFK and O'Hare do share some major similarities along with some key differences. They are similar in that they are both one heck of a long way from the business district. O'Hare gets much more short hop business travel than JFK, though. (As of about 5 years ago, the only flights from JFK to Boston or Washington were on propeller planes). JFK functions for the most part as a vacation and long-term business travel airport. LGA and Newark handle most of NYC's domestic business travellers.
I can't believe that businesses are claiming that the long ride to JFK is a reason for leaving the city. Taxes, yes. Cost of living, yes. Cost of employees, sure. But the length of a ride to the international airport? Where are they moving their businesses to, London? The distance from the city to LGA is probably better than in most US cities.
To sum my opinion up, the two airports require different approaches because they serve different markets. Both have thousands of employees, and that's who'll dominate the ridership. (That's why I said there should be stops along the Van Wyck on the JFK line).
LGA handles the business travellers, so the focus should be on getting to and from Manhattan. Extending the N train works just fine for that. I agree that most business travellers aren't going to be willing to transfer -- but the N serves many of Manhattan's key business areas. The only area that it really misses is the East Midtown area below about 53rd (figuring 6 or 7 blocks is about as much as anyone would be willing to walk -- then again, what subway doesn't miss East Midtown). Heck, if you could get the Broadway express tracks open and aligned correctly you could have pretty quick service from the basement of the WTC to LGA.
JFK is a different animal entirely -- that's why the Jamaica connection makes sense. Most travel to and from JFK begins at home, not at the office. The travellers are much more scattered than they are for LGA. As you mentioned, visitors to the city are going to take cabs and shuttle buses. Since we're not going to build multiple transit lines terminating at JFK, it makes sense to use the nearest transit hub as the base and connect the airport via a high frequency service. It's the same hub and spoke theory that underlies almost all airlines operations today.
Chuck
Thoughtful comments Chuck ! The only thing I'll comment on is that maybe you JFK theory will prove to be valid as it becomes more & more of a chore to drop someone off/pick them up at JFK. Sceondly for short stays overseas as the cost to park rises, folks may opt for mass transit option.
Personally I like driving around JFK at night ... driving ? opps, yes I did say that.
Mr t__:^)
[I'm glad you posted those numbers for LGA (66,000 passengers, 25,000 employees) though the number of employees sounds pretty high -- where do you find a source for stats like that?]
Passengers on the Port Authority web site, if I remember correctly; I think someone posted the number of employees here.
[I can't believe that businesses are claiming that the long ride to JFK is a reason for leaving the city. Taxes, yes. Cost of living, yes. Cost of employees, sure. But the length of a ride to the international airport? Where are they moving their businesses to, London? The distance from the city to LGA is probably better than in most US cities.]
Well, of course I'm only passing along what I've read, but it seems to me that the appropriate comparison here is not with other cities but with suburbs.
A subway line to serve employees is I think in the category of "nice but"--the cost of constructing it can't be justified.
(Cost of constructing it can't be justified)
That depends on what your "discount rate" is, which is to say, how much you discount future benefits relative to current benefits. Given we have a huge debt, and the second worst credit rating of any state, I'd say the discount rate of NYC politicians is pretty high. My discount rate is zero. At that discount rate the airport connection, and much else, should have been done years ago.
It also depends on the cost of contruction and operation. Unlike many at City Planning, I agree that LGA alone does not justify a separate subway line. But it does justify a two mile elevated extention.
[That depends on what your "discount rate" is, which is to say, how much you discount future benefits relative to current benefits. Given we have a huge debt, and the second worst credit rating of any state, I'd say the discount rate of NYC politicians is pretty high. My discount rate is zero. At that discount rate the airport connection, and much else, should have been done years ago.
It also depends on the cost of contruction and operation. Unlike many at City Planning, I agree that LGA alone does not justify a separate subway line. But it does justify a two mile elevated extention.]
I'm not sure what the benefits are, though--convenience for the employees, yes, but that will hardly add to the City's economy or tax base, and it seems we disagree on whether air travelers will use it to any significant degree--which is why I favor a hybrid service.
How many officers of Fortune 500 companies have you interviewed to determine they won't take a subway from the airport? Maybe YOU won't, but I spoke to one who flies to New York frequently a few days ago, and here is what he said:
When he flies to Chicago, he takes the subway to the loop about 2/3 of the time. THAT ride includes 16 stations and 45 minutes before you even get to the loop! And you have to wait as long at 15 minutes for a train in the middle of the day. It's company policy -- lower cost. Late at night, when he's tired, he pays for a cab himself to cut that time. Note that the N train to LaGuardia would reach Time Square in 30 mintues and run every 10 minutes or less.
He HATES the cab from LaGuardia. He's missed several planes and a couple of meetings due to getting stuck in traffic.
Given the choice between a train every four to six minutes taking 30 mintues, and a train every 10 to 15 minutes taking just 20 minutes (ie. a separate service along the BQE, the only other real option) he'd prefer the frequent service. He hates to wait.
To executives traveling light for meetings, add in airport employees, students, and New Yorkers who ride the subway every day and are flying out, and you have a substantial market -- more than a premium priced service geared just to executives.
Would a family of four tourists with ten pieces of luggage take the subway rather than a taxi. Of course not, but so what? Getting the other people off the road would improve the ride for those who still take a taxi. Won't it be crowded. Yes, for two hours inbound in the AM and two hours outbound in the PM. For that, you could put in one train every 15 minutes running express down the middle track for those who would prefer to wait to avoid the crowds.
A subway ride to JFK -- even a direct subway ride -- wouldn't be as good, because it would be far away like O'Hare, not close like LaGuardia. But LaGuardia is perfect for it. You'd increase the number of trains, and give the Astoria Line the newest and best trains. Why not one train every five minutes as far as Whitehall?
No other option makes sense.
"A subway ride to JFK -- even a direct subway ride -- wouldn't be as good, because it would be far away like O'Hare, not close like LaGuardia. But LaGuardia is perfect for it. You'd increase the number of trains, and give the Astoria Line the newest and best trains. Why not one train every five minutes as far as Whitehall?"
Larry,
Your post makes the most intelligent sense regarding rail transporation to the airport. As a N rider, and an user of Laguardia Airport, it will surely be an improvement. Presently I take the M60. An let me TELL you! it doesn't run often! and it is extremely slow!
In comparison to the cab, it is about an extra thirty minutes. And, that doesn't included waiting for the bus either.
N Broadway Line
Here is where a limited version of the "snobway" concept would have value. if there is room for any kind of dedicated trackage, a frequent express service at extra fare with conductors in each car and other amenities would provide business travelers with a safe,swift and comfortable alernative between LGA and Midtown. the added cost not paid for by the extra fare could be subsidized. What the heck, this is not corporate welfare, it is just the civilized thing to do for those who are bringing jobs to the community.
How about running Exp Bus Service from LaGuardia to the N Line, 3-4 Stops. The shuttle term, the main terminal Marine Term and then the N Line. What is that a 10-15 minute run? No extra fare either
(Shuttle bus from Ditmars)
We've talked about this, and I can't understand why the TA doesn't at least try it. The M60 runs so infrequently as to be useless to passengers, and employees who miss the bus are screwed. The official airline shuttle -- from 74th and Broadway -- crawls -- it has to cross several streets with signal priority. There is little traffic up on Ditmars. A bus could leave when all the passengers get down from the platform, and be at the Marine Air Terminal in less than 10 minutes.
One possible reason that the TA does not try a non-stop shuttle bus from LGA terminals to a nearby subway station is that they are afraid of the result.
If the service were lightly used, they would have a hard time justifying an expensive airport extension. If the service were successful, then there would be no need for a direct connection. At most, a LRV on a PRW over GCP to Hoyt Ave Station. Such a line would not engender community opposition.
In either case the TA's plan looses. It's not hard to fathom the TA's opposition.
If you need to get to the airport go to the airport stop fooling around with shuttle busses and peoplemovers. In my limited experience people movers cost as much or more per mile than conventional subway trains. This is probably because of their non standard and proprietary features. In the finest NYC traditions why doesn't the government just "pay off" the opposition and extend the N to LaGuardia. If a shuttle bus is to be used it has to have frequent service and a free transfer to the subway or it will fail.
The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.
In the finest NYC traditions why doesn't the government just "pay off" the opposition and extend the N to LaGuardia. Which opposition? The political opposition has already been paid off. Those who are prevented by law from going before the electorate again - the Mayor and Borough President - support the plan. Those that anticipate entering another election (where these votes cannot be diluted) are against it - everyone else. How about the residents themselves? It is not difficult to quantify the solution. Simply go to the census tracts and get the numbers of people within a block or two the the extension and value of the properties. You'll get a fairly accurate estimate of the number of people and value of property affected. They have not yet made such estimates, although it has been suggested in at least two public meetings. Let's try a ballpark figure. Assume houses on 40 foot lots on either side of the two mile extension. That translates to 528 residences. The average value of such residences in zip code 11105 according to the last census is $229,000. That's a ballpark estimate of $120 million - or 6 years worth of cab fares. It's a crude estimate but a starting point.
If a shuttle bus is to be used it has to have frequent service and a free transfer to the subway or it will fail. If you are going to try to do a fair trial, you would want the experiment to succeed. The bus service should be completely free, make stops at the terminal buildings and go non-stop to connecting subway (Hoyt Ave or Jackson Hts) and run once every 5 minutes (in both directions) between 6 AM and midnight. Run the experiment for at least one year. Define success/failure on the basis of patronage before experiment starts. Now this is the dilemma. If it fails, then how can you justify the capital expenditure. If it succeeds, the need for a one-seat ride has been disproven.
The TA's solutions are the M60 and Q48. Slow and infrequent service. Wait for complaints to answer with a $1 billion plan for which funding is available.
In my limited experience people movers cost as much or more per mile than conventional subway trains.
My read is that a shuttle bus would be successful. However, the local street traffic around LGA can cause serious delays at certain times for people trying to catch a plane. I believe that some PRW will be required. This brings up the problem of displaced persons. The GCP route avoids this. (There are some other alternatives that avoid this but their consideration was beyond the scope of the LGA access study.) However, the GCP route must negotiate some tight clearances around the Amtrak trestle. That's the reason for using LRT rather conventional subways - not cost savings.
[The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.}
Most of the proposals are for an inadequate service, and whatever they do, few people will use it, making it an uneconomical one as well. There are more than enough passengers to LGA to justify a real service if people actually use it, but if they want something that works, they'll have to offer a fast, one stop ride to attractive cab accessible terminals in the business district, and that means coming in via the Amtrak/LIRR tracks. Otherwise, the whole thing is a massive white elephant like Airtrain.
A free shuttle bus service would probably be useful for airport employees, though.
(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway.
Annual cost for bus operation approximately $1 million. Annularized capital cost for "damn subway" - $100 million.
[(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.]
I think you answered your own rhetorical question; the decisions are made by politicians, and what's right doesn't always win elections. Supply becomes decoupled from demand, and nothing distinguishes those who come up with apt, creative solutions and take the right kind of risks from those who would fail in private business.
Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
As far as paying off the local residents. for homeowners or landlords money for noise attenuation, for tenants relocation expenses. Even if it does cost $120 million that is about 1/4 mile of subway construction, or highway construction for that matter, in NYC.
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ... i.e. the N still has the 3rd track to Queens Plaza, so you'ld need to change Ditmars (to side platforms), then extend the line to the airport. You'ld also figure out which way the express goes AM & PM and how long.
With such a short extention it doesn't seem reasonable to terminate the "local" service short of the airport, but politically maybe you add one more station on the way & terminate the local there. Then make folks pay to get off at La Guardia, i.e. double fare.
But lets say you provide local & express service to La Guardia. The express would stop at Queens Plaza, Lex. Ave, 5th Ave (can't avoid it), 57th St, 47th, 42nd, 34th, 14th, Canal (can't avaid it) & finally City Hall. So, 7 stations skipped to Queens Plaza (incl. the new one) seems like a express to me.
Mr t__:^)
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ...
Which yard will you use to layover the locals - now that the center track is no longer available.
Which yard will be used for the express service?
(Which yard will be used for layovers)
Eventually, the Cornona Yard, once the N gets extended along the waterfront to Shea. You want everyone within 1/2 mile of a subway? The N extension could do it for those living more than 1/2 mile north of Roosevelt. And, with the third track beyond Ditmars, you could have express service in the peak direction. The 63rd St tunnel would reduce any contraints caused by the need to put Queens Blvd trains in the 60th St tunnel.
Here's my idea of an N train extension to LaGuardia Airport - and further:
After Ditmars Boulevard: 20th Avenue Station (31st Street), turn right, Steinway Street Station (20th Avenue), go UNDERGROUND, nonstop to Marine Terminal, Main Terminal, and one station for both US Airways and Delta. Then, EXTEND that further under Flushing Bay, SURFACE and terminate at Willets Point/Shea Stadium, where you can transfer to the #7 train, and where access to the Corona Yard is available.
This would not only service La Guardia Airport, but also serve as a THIRD way to get to Flushing Meadow Park by train. For peak periods going to the Airport or the Park, the 20th Avenue and Steinway Street Stations would be bypassed.
Good or bad idea?
The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound. You really do not need to extend it past LGA. You already have 2 trains running a couple blocks apart the 7 and the LIRR, as to yards for storage, build a side extension into Sunnyside Yards. It is not as crowded as it used to be
[The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound.]
The problem is that planes come in very low in that area as they fly over the old watch factory & Grand Central Pwy., so they'll have to use sky hooks or something to keep the subway from floating away.
Mr t__:^)
[Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.]
Never say that--it's amazing how bad some people's intuition is. Spending $1.5 billion on a slightly faster "Train to the Plane" is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen our government do.
The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.
In the finest NYC traditions why doesn't the government just "pay off" the opposition and extend the N to LaGuardia. Which opposition? The political opposition has already been paid off. Those who are prevented by law from going before the electorate again - the Mayor and Borough President - support the plan. Those that anticipate entering another election (where these votes cannot be diluted) are against it - everyone else. How about the residents themselves? It is not difficult to quantify the solution. Simply go to the census tracts and get the numbers of people within a block or two the the extension and value of the properties. You'll get a fairly accurate estimate of the number of people and value of property affected. They have not yet made such estimates, although it has been suggested in at least two public meetings. Let's try a ballpark figure. Assume houses on 40 foot lots on either side of the two mile extension. That translates to 528 residences. The average value of such residences in zip code 11105 according to the last census is $229,000. That's a ballpark estimate of $120 million - or 6 years worth of cab fares. It's a crude estimate but a starting point.
If a shuttle bus is to be used it has to have frequent service and a free transfer to the subway or it will fail. If you are going to try to do a fair trial, you would want the experiment to succeed. The bus service should be completely free, make stops at the terminal buildings and go non-stop to connecting subway (Hoyt Ave or Jackson Hts) and run once every 5 minutes (in both directions) between 6 AM and midnight. Run the experiment for at least one year. Define success/failure on the basis of patronage before experiment starts. Now this is the dilemma. If it fails, then how can you justify the capital expenditure. If it succeeds, the need for a one-seat ride has been disproven.
The TA's solutions are the M60 and Q48. Slow and infrequent service. Wait for complaints to answer with a $1 billion plan for which funding is available.
In my limited experience people movers cost as much or more per mile than conventional subway trains.
My read is that a shuttle bus would be successful. However, the local street traffic around LGA can cause serious delays at certain times for people trying to catch a plane. I believe that some PRW will be required. This brings up the problem of displaced persons. The GCP route avoids this. (There are some other alternatives that avoid this but their consideration was beyond the scope of the LGA access study.) However, the GCP route must negotiate some tight clearances around the Amtrak trestle. That's the reason for using LRT rather conventional subways - not cost savings.
[The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.}
Most of the proposals are for an inadequate service, and whatever they do, few people will use it, making it an uneconomical one as well. There are more than enough passengers to LGA to justify a real service if people actually use it, but if they want something that works, they'll have to offer a fast, one stop ride to attractive cab accessible terminals in the business district, and that means coming in via the Amtrak/LIRR tracks. Otherwise, the whole thing is a massive white elephant like Airtrain.
A free shuttle bus service would probably be useful for airport employees, though.
(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway.
Annual cost for bus operation approximately $1 million. Annularized capital cost for "damn subway" - $100 million.
[(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.]
I think you answered your own rhetorical question; the decisions are made by politicians, and what's right doesn't always win elections. Supply becomes decoupled from demand, and nothing distinguishes those who come up with apt, creative solutions and take the right kind of risks from those who would fail in private business.
Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
As far as paying off the local residents. for homeowners or landlords money for noise attenuation, for tenants relocation expenses. Even if it does cost $120 million that is about 1/4 mile of subway construction, or highway construction for that matter, in NYC.
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ... i.e. the N still has the 3rd track to Queens Plaza, so you'ld need to change Ditmars (to side platforms), then extend the line to the airport. You'ld also figure out which way the express goes AM & PM and how long.
With such a short extention it doesn't seem reasonable to terminate the "local" service short of the airport, but politically maybe you add one more station on the way & terminate the local there. Then make folks pay to get off at La Guardia, i.e. double fare.
But lets say you provide local & express service to La Guardia. The express would stop at Queens Plaza, Lex. Ave, 5th Ave (can't avoid it), 57th St, 47th, 42nd, 34th, 14th, Canal (can't avaid it) & finally City Hall. So, 7 stations skipped to Queens Plaza (incl. the new one) seems like a express to me.
Mr t__:^)
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ...
Which yard will you use to layover the locals - now that the center track is no longer available.
Which yard will be used for the express service?
(Which yard will be used for layovers)
Eventually, the Cornona Yard, once the N gets extended along the waterfront to Shea. You want everyone within 1/2 mile of a subway? The N extension could do it for those living more than 1/2 mile north of Roosevelt. And, with the third track beyond Ditmars, you could have express service in the peak direction. The 63rd St tunnel would reduce any contraints caused by the need to put Queens Blvd trains in the 60th St tunnel.
Here's my idea of an N train extension to LaGuardia Airport - and further:
After Ditmars Boulevard: 20th Avenue Station (31st Street), turn right, Steinway Street Station (20th Avenue), go UNDERGROUND, nonstop to Marine Terminal, Main Terminal, and one station for both US Airways and Delta. Then, EXTEND that further under Flushing Bay, SURFACE and terminate at Willets Point/Shea Stadium, where you can transfer to the #7 train, and where access to the Corona Yard is available.
This would not only service La Guardia Airport, but also serve as a THIRD way to get to Flushing Meadow Park by train. For peak periods going to the Airport or the Park, the 20th Avenue and Steinway Street Stations would be bypassed.
Good or bad idea?
The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound. You really do not need to extend it past LGA. You already have 2 trains running a couple blocks apart the 7 and the LIRR, as to yards for storage, build a side extension into Sunnyside Yards. It is not as crowded as it used to be
[The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound.]
The problem is that planes come in very low in that area as they fly over the old watch factory & Grand Central Pwy., so they'll have to use sky hooks or something to keep the subway from floating away.
Mr t__:^)
[Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.]
Never say that--it's amazing how bad some people's intuition is. Spending $1.5 billion on a slightly faster "Train to the Plane" is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen our government do.
(If a shuttle bus was not well used, it would show no need for the N line extension, while if it was well used, it would show it was not needed).
First of all, the N line extension to LaGuardia is not the MTA's idea, it's the City Planning Department's idea, which TA and Port Authority bureaucrats agreed with, and the Mayor and business community really pushed. It's not something some wacko came up with in a room, lots of people want it, though differing slightly in the details. The City has even offered to pay for it, and refused to pay for anything else. The Queens Boro President has been pushing it for yearss. Only the NYC Council, red tape, and lawsuits stand in the way.
The more likely result of a successful shuttle bus is to establish the route in the public's mind, and show that a better (ie. direct) connection would draw even more passengers. The shuttle bus would be much better than what we have now, and I believe it would be a success. BUT it would take at least 15 minutes longer than simply getting on the N at the airport. If the bus driver made an annoucement on every ride "if you want the subway exteded right to the airport yell at the politicians" it would get built soon enough.
I do recall that City Planning claimed at one of the public hearings to have come up with this idea in a 1943 report. I discounted such a self proclaimed act of prescience for three reasons. There was even less money available capital expenditures in 1943 than there is today. They would not extend the existing trolley line a few hundred feet into the terminal - even though the line connected with the Junction Blvd Station mostly over a private right of way. (They then abandoned the line at the earliest possible time and sold the ROW.) All the documentation for this project carries MTA letterhead.
Regardless of who authored or hatched this plan - it's now the MTA's baby. The could not easily refuse because it has a guaranteed source of outside funding. Planners, politicians, construction businesses and unions don't make money by not building capital projects. This is a potential $1 billion windfall.
The city's committment is soley for the planning study. Of course, they specified this plan and none other. There are half a dozen other alternatives to improve access to LGA at a small fraction of the cost. Some of these plans provide even better access than the Astoria line extension. Even the Feds might withdraw their $1 billion cookie jar, if one of these alternatives were officially presented. I have carefully noted that the purpose of the study is to determine a route for the Astoria Line extension NOT how to improve LGA access. The two may or may not lead to the same recommendation.
I think that we would agree that if $1 billion were available for subway system capital improvements - an extension to LGA would not be the highest priority. However, the independent financing has brought this project to the front burner. After all, $1 billiion thrown at any problem should, in theory, solve it. One would have to appear to be insane not to accept the $1 billion which appears to be available for the asking with now strings attached.
There are strings. One impediment to this project that you did not mention is the NYS Legislature. The Republican controlled Senate has vetoed the proposed MTA capital program. It seems that they want parity in capital spending between rail and road projects. There will be an eleventh hour "compromise" to save the program.
Subway capital funding will be diverted to upstate road building. The diverted projects will not include the LGA access because the that funding is not discretionary. The net effect of accepting the $1 billion will be to reduce capital funding for more important subway projects. Didn't you know that free lunches were outlawed in New York more than 60 years ago?
(There will have to be a compromise with Republicans in the New York State Legislature)
Say that again? In exchange for spending $700 million in CITY taxes, the MTA will agree to spend an equal amount of STATE taxes (half of which come from the city) on roads elsewhere? COME ON!
I'm not sure we all agree that the N extension to Astoria is not the best use of $1 billion. I think it should be the city's highest rail priority. I think we should agree that a short extension like this should not cost $1 billion.
And I firmly maintain that an N extension to Astoria is the best way to serve the airport. A separate line would not only cost more, but would either have to have less frequent service (because it carries fewer passengers) or be more deeply subsidized. If you extend the N, you can increase the number of trains and save money. Have a separate line from Flushing with a double-back and #7 trains diverted from Flusing Terminal? Pleeze.
The only people with a reason to complain about an N line extension are those living directly adjacent to the proposed extension. They should be bought off.
If the city can't do this, it can't do anything.
(There will have to be a compromise with Republicans in the New York State Legislature)
Say that again? In exchange for spending $700 million in CITY taxes, the MTA will agree to spend an equal amount of STATE taxes
(half of which come from the city) on roads elsewhere? COME ON!
From the NY Times, Late City Edition Dec 22, 1999 p B10
Senate Republicans Block Transit Plan
ALBANY, Dec. 21 - The Republicans who control the State Senate blocked a five-year, $16.5 billion capital plan today for the New York region's subways, buses and commuter trains, starting the ritual of negotiations with other lawmakers.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority's plan features work on a Second Avenue subway line in Manhattan and a Long Island Rail Road link to Grand Central Terminal, and fleets of new trains and buses. But it must be approved by an obscure state board with one member each named by the Senate, the Assembly, the governor and the mayor of New York, and all four have veto power.
Senator Dean G. Skelos, a Nassau County Republican who sits on the board, vetoed the plan because there is no comparable state plan for investing in highways. The Senate Republicans have always linked the two, seeking a rough parity.
The plan was set to take effect on Jan. 1, but the M.T.A. has enough projects under way that the absence of a plan will not affect its work for months. Past plans were approved in time to avoid project delays, and the vetoes are seen as the start of serious negotions.
Let's remember: the MTA's capital program favors LIRR construction at the subway's expense; the MTA is controlled by the Republican governor; the MTA would not release a large capital plan without prior approval from the Republican governor; the Republican Senate would not block a large capital proposal without the tacit approval of the Republican governor. The veto, subsequent crisis and the need for eleventh hour negotions has been carefully orchestrated. They even chose Christmas week to launch the attack to avoid publicity.
Would this set a precedent for transferring capital funds earmarked for subway construction to other projects. I can think of at least half a dozen, starting with the 1950 2nd Avenue Subway bond issue.
You have to be careful in dealing with Republicans, who portray themselves as Boy Scouts versus the downstate city slickers. These Boy Scouts earned their merit badges in three card monte.
three card monte OH YEAH!!!
Same old story, that is why back in the 30-50s there was a move to make the city a seperate State. Republican State, Demo City. Pay taxes in City to Albany, get back 40 pct. Keep the money in the city was the saying. t seems like nothing has changed. Half the population on NY State is in the City, and the sh*t heads upstate could not care less. If the City becomes a seperate state, then who will pay for their back roads in Erie or Oswego Countys
I think we should agree that a short extension like this should not cost $1 billion.... The only people with a reason to complain about an N line extension are those living directly adjacent to the proposed extension. They should be bought off.
I'll agree that it should not cost $1 billion - but similar experience with other extensions shows that it will cost every bit, if not more. Moreover, the politicians, construction unions and contractors who are the extension's primary backers will insist that not a penny less should be spent.
Now, you can't have it both ways. You can't cut costs and still want to buy out the opposition. A simple frontage estimate for the first two miles is $120 of 1990 dollars. If you add the people who would be affected by the noise and vibration - then double that. If you want to translate this to 2000 valuations add at least another 50%. Also, factor in moving expenses. As Senator Dirksen once said: a million here and a million there and pretty soon you're talking about real money!
I think it [the N extension to LGA]should be the city's highest rail priority
I believe we have a difference of opinion.
Setting a strict numerical order of priorities is highly subjective despite many so-called objective methodologies for doing so. Among the many factors that would influence such ranking would be: the time to completion; the inconvenience cost associated with construction; the benefit received upon completion; the cost associated with deferring the project; the dollar cost of the project; outside funding sources available for the project, as well as several others. The scope of some of these factors is as highly subjective as their weighting. One would have to be extremely rash to come up with a strict numberical ranking with so many conflicting, contradictory and subjective factors. Let me be rash.
My first priority would be to do what is necessary to guarantee 80% of the passengers a seat during rush hours and 95% of the passengers a seat during non-rush hours. I believe that the rush hour problem can be accomplished by investing in equipment and managerial skills to return to at least 30 train/hour operation from past years.
My second priority would be to build a new 4 track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks. The tunnel would have flexible routing on the Manhattan side - permitting routing up 6th Ave and Broadway, as well as down Nassau St.
My third priority would be to make better use of existing resources to solve bottlenecks at terminals.
My fourth priority would be to decrease trave time by increasing acceleration, de-acceleration and travel speeds.
My fifth priority would be to new areas and destinations. My ultimate objective would be to get every New Yorker within 1/2 mile of a subway station. The LGA extension would be near the top of the list by virtue of its funding source.
All those other priorities will require big bucks and a long time: new signals, for one. Even if new signals are installed, I don't think 80 percent of the passengers could have a seat during rush hours without boring MANY more tunnels and building a Second AND Third Avenue subway. A more realistic goal would be a seat for everyone riding more than 20 minutes, which could be achieved with a combination of greater speed and greater capacity.
I'd but the connection to LaGuardia up there because of its economic function. In general, the subway system provides access to the Manhattan Central Business District. But the LaGuardia connection is need to keep the CBD competitive, dense with jobs and activity, and worth connecting to. In the internet era, more and more people may choose to fly in for meetings, shopping or recreation, staying over one night or not at all. We need to accomodate that with a connection that provides frequent rail service.
BTW, another advantage of the N to LGA. Put an extendable platform at the airport, and off peak (when the Flushing Line is not at capacity) you could run IRT trains express from the airport to Queensboro and on to GCT, in addition to the N, to the airport. As it is, you'd get an easy cross-platform transfer to the #7, but if the #7 were extended west an occasional direct train may be warrented.
[All those other priorities will require big bucks and a long time: new signals, for one. Even if new signals are installed, I don't think 80 percent of the passengers could have a seat during rush hours without boring MANY more tunnels and building a Second AND Third Avenue subway.]
Seems to me that even the practical maximum of 27 10 or 8 car trains per hour is *way* below what those lines could actually handle with modifications such as longer platforms and CBTC. A line would slow down to the minimum track speed/maximum dwell time, but the theoretical maximum capacity is provided by one train running end-to-end, and we're far from that.
From the "Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS" p. 9D-12
The current NYCT signal system on the Lexington Avenue line is designed to allow 90-second headways, including a 30 second allowance for station dwell times, with operating headways of 120 seconds. The additional 30 seconds in the operating headway is meant to allow trains to move far enough ahead of the following trains, so the following trains generally can run on green signals.
This statement regarding NYCT signals is not limited to the Lexington Avenue line. It is system-wide. The key is to keep the dwell times to 30 seconds. This can be accomplished by running a sufficient number of trains.
[From the "Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS" p. 9D-12
The current NYCT signal system on the Lexington Avenue line is designed to allow 90-second headways, including a 30 second allowance for station dwell times, with operating headways of 120 seconds. The additional 30 seconds in the operating headway is meant to allow trains to move far enough ahead of the following trains, so the following trains generally can run on green signals.
This statement regarding NYCT signals is not limited to the Lexington Avenue line. It is system-wide. The key is to keep the dwell times to 30 seconds. This can be accomplished by running a sufficient number of trains.]
As always, it's a bit foolish to talk about overcrowded lines when the TA doesn't run enough trains to use them at capacity. Whether enough extra trains could be run on the Lexington Avenue to reduce dwell times enough to further increase efficiency, I don't know. Seems to me it's the sort of thing you have to try.
But there's overcrowding and there's overcrowding--the MTA's standards for subway capacity might best be called "sardine lite." I SEE NO REASON THAT EVERY SUBWAY PASSENGER SHOULDN'T HAVE THE SIMPLE, BASIC SERVICE OF A SEAT!
Sorry for yelling, but we've somehow gotten used to the notion that it's acceptable to provide Calcutta-level service in the world's richest country.
Does the subway now run in Brunai and Kuwait. They have the highest income per capita in the world.
[Does the subway now run in Brunai and Kuwait. They have the highest income per capita in the world.]
But they don't have our traffic. The silk stocking people get stuck in it same as we do.
Anyway, I'm bothered more by the issue of remaining competitive with respect to the middle class; CEO's can afford to be chauffered, and typically are.
I remain unconvinced that a LaGuardia extension is really that urgently needed. Is there non-anecdotal evidence that businesses are moving out of NYC because there's no direct rail access to the airport? Is there non-anecdotal evidence that meeting planners are avoiding NYC for that reason (see note below)? Is there non-anecdotal evidence that major airlines are pulling out of LaGuardia? I highly doubt that anything of that sort exists.
Note - NYC may indeed be losing some major conventions, but that's almost certainly because hotel rooms are too expensive, and partly because the Javits Center is too small.
(Evidence that NYC is hurt by lack of rail access)?
I had to read a lot of trade literature for a study of the convention center and associated improvements. The meeting and convention literature bash NYC because of 1) the lack of and cost of hotel rooms and 2) the lack of a direct rail connection to the airports. They advise going elsewhere.
Years ago, things were different. They complained about the mafia ripoffs at the Convention Center. That problem seems to have been solved, but meanwhile EVERYONE ELSE is building rail connections to the airport, so we are losing to the competition.
Maybe if they added a stop over in that industrial area, they'd build a few hotels there, and on Queensboro Plaza.
A Complaint is the Javitts Center is to out of the way from the better Mid-Town Hotels, and in heavy traffic it takes too long to get there, even if they use Charter Busses. They can t load in many places because people disregard loading zones
[A Complaint is the Javitts Center is to out of the way from the better Mid-Town Hotels, and in heavy traffic it takes too long to get there, even if they use Charter Busses. They can't load in many places because people disregard loading zones.]
The charter buses are nightmarishly slow--we really need train service. The frustrating thing is that the trains are already there, but we won't expand them.
[The charter buses are nightmarishly slow--we really need train service. The frustrating thing is that the trains are already there, but we won't expand them. ]
I assume that you're thinking of running an LIRR shuttle between Penn Sta and the Westside Yards. You could set up such a service for a few hundred grand. Nobody is interested because there is not enough money in it for them.
[I assume that you're thinking of running an LIRR shuttle between Penn Sta and the Westside Yards. You could set up such a service for a few hundred grand. Nobody is interested because there is not enough money in it for them.]
Not the first time I've heard that. This sort of stuff is turning me into a privatization fanatic!
This sort of stuff is turning me into a privatization fanatic!
A process was developed in the 1930's that can make effectively make structural steel rustproof. The process can be done on site without dismantling any structure. It costs more than painting but is not pohibitive. A few bridges were treated in the 1940's. They have shown no rust damage in the ensuing 50 years with no maintenance. The construction industry and their rule maker friends in the Federal Highway Administration have made sure that such experiments have gone no further.
I worked for a company that manufactured some of the equipment necessary to apply this process in the early 1990's. They also sold consumables. They did not make any money from the equipment but made it on the consumables - the razor/razor blade analogy. The company was always looking for new applications for this process. I had some contacts that could supply as many non-highway bridges as we needed for a demonstration. My company was not interested because the patents had run out on the consumables. The competition would have made it uneconomic for my company to make any profit on the consumables.
So here we are half a decade later with bridges rusting out because there is no profit in prevention. Free enterprise does not have all the answers.
[A process was developed in the 1930's that can make effectively make structural steel rustproof. The process can be done on site without dismantling any structure. It costs more than painting but is not pohibitive. A few bridges were treated in the 1940's. They have shown no rust damage in the ensuing 50 years with no maintenance. The construction industry and their rule maker friends in the Federal Highway Administration have made sure that such experiments have gone no further.
I worked for a company that manufactured some of the equipment necessary to apply this process in the early 1990's. They also sold consumables. They did not make any money from the equipment but made it on the consumables - the razor/razor blade analogy. The company was always looking for new applications for this process. I had some contacts that could supply as many non-highway bridges as we needed for a demonstration. My company was not interested because the patents had run out on the consumables. The competition would have made it uneconomic for my company to make any profit on the consumables.
So here we are half a decade later with bridges rusting out because there is no profit in prevention. Free enterprise does not have all the answers.]
It's an interesting story, and I agree that free enterprise doesn't provide all the answers (that has to do with the theory of ideal markets, which would require an infinite number of choices and infinite knowledge on the part of the consumer)--but in just about any area where privatization is possible, it's the superior alternative. In the case of the subways, I find the arguments particularly compelling--in fact, the only effective counterarguments I've heard from anybody are that the government would run the privatized companies into the ground.
The private sector has a tendency to cash cow assets.
Not a problem in an industry where you have several competing companies, and the decline of one leads to the rise of others. A bad idea on the subway. You can try to regulate them, but private companies are adept at paying off regulators, and walking away from disasters while sticking someone else with the bill. "Efficiency" can take multiple forms.
The example is the Jamaica Water Supply Area, a disaster the city ended up taking over and rebuilding at a cost of millions. The subways weren't in great shape in 1940 either, especially the IRT.
On the other hand, if the government controls and operates the ROW, I think you can privitize the operation of the system. You might have to get them to post a bond to make sure they maintain the rolling stock. Then again, public ownership didn't stop the LIRR from cash cowing the trains.
[The private sector has a tendency to cash cow assets.
Not a problem in an industry where you have several competing companies, and the decline of one leads to the rise of others. A bad idea on the subway. You can try to regulate them, but private companies are adept at paying off regulators, and walking away from disasters while sticking someone else with the bill. "Efficiency" can take multiple forms.
The example is the Jamaica Water Supply Area, a disaster the city ended up taking over and rebuilding at a cost of millions. The subways weren't in great shape in 1940 either, especially the IRT.
On the other hand, if the government controls and operates the ROW, I think you can privitize the operation of the system. You might have to get them to post a bond to make sure they maintain the rolling stock. Then again, public ownership didn't stop the LIRR from cash cowing the trains.]
Those practices seem to be more common among railroads than other regulated monopolies. I wonder how much of that can be traced to a rougher age, to government mandates, and to the desperation of a dying industry?
(Cash cowing more common in railroads than in other regulated industries)
Tell that to the people of Brooklyn. My electric wires were installed by Tom Edison, and our phone wires were laid by Alexander Graham Bell. I know some people who moved out of the area because they wanted to run a business from their home, and they couldn't get a second line. The way those private monopolies treat the borough reminds me of...
the Manhattan Bridge.
Much of the borough is new development. There are no problems there. I have 2 landlines in my house.
[Tell that to the people of Brooklyn. My electric wires were installed by Tom Edison, and our phone wires were laid by Alexander Graham Bell. I know some people who moved out of the area because they wanted to run a business from their home, and they couldn't get a second line. The way those private monopolies treat the borough reminds me of...
the Manhattan Bridge.]
There's no question that Bell Atlantic is the least competent phone company in the country. But I don't think the right comparison is between monopoly and competitive business, but rather between private and government monopoly. The government phone systems in Europe are a standing joke--famously unreliable, and I have friends who pay several hundred pounds a *month* for Internet access!
You never had GTE Hawaiian Tel. 100 families here on Maui are so far out that they can not have touch tone service, the use the old pulse, that is supposed to be fixed by the end of the year. So the rest of us have to pay $1.75 a month extra to have the service.
In NY we still pay for touch tone.
In NY we still pay for touch tone.
Not true. This was changed about 3 years ago. The interesting thing is that touch tone call costs the telco less than the pulse dialed call. The Ma Bell edict had been to charge extra for anything that differed from Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS). So, discouraging touch tone by charging a monthly fee, cost the operating companies more for common equipment than they ever received from the rate payer. On the other hand they bought such common equipment form AT&T-WE.
[You never had GTE Hawaiian Tel. 100 families here on Maui are so far out that they can not have touch tone service, the use the old pulse, that is supposed to be fixed by the end of the year. So the rest of us have to pay $1.75 a month extra to have the service.]
Great example of government meddling: here in New York State touch tone service was an extra price item for many years. It was actually cheaper for the phone company to stop offering pulse service, but the Public Service Commission made them offer the uneconomical service and charge touch tone customers extra to help subsidize the cost of service for the poor.
Idiots. That's throwing away money on an uneconomical, third rate service when you could save money and offer everybody a better service. And yet, whenever I suggest removing subsidies and charging for the actual cost of services, people scream at me like I'm the Devil. I wish they taught people basic economics!
Oh and Central Telephone in Las Vegas is not that great either.
[Oh and Central Telephone in Las Vegas is not that great either.]
And Pacific Bell sucks--but everyone who deals with multiple phone companies seems to agree that Bell Atlantic is the worst.
Pac Bell is still better then GTE I had them both while I lived in the Valley, GTE charged 2-3 bucks more just for basic services.
[Pac Bell is still better then GTE I had them both while I lived in the Valley, GTE charged 2-3 bucks more just for basic services.]
When I was in San Francisco, it took them *6 weeks* to install my phone lines because they weren't able to meet demand. Just reac