 | |
| |
Is there any reason why no photographs of the R-142 have been published yet? All images released thus far are computer created images, which may not be what the real thing is. I am not totally positive, but I believe that a fraction of an interior shot was published a few months back in METRO Magazine. An interior fixtures manufacturer had an advertisement with a (partial) photograph of an interior of a transit car, and the seating and the part of the window that are visible in the photo sure looked like it would be the specs of a NYC subway car. The seats were a shade of red, sort of like the R-27/30.
Neither Bombardier nor Kawasaki has chosen to release official photos and no railfan has been able to get a shot. If I had, I know I'd be chomping at the bit to get them on the web.
Patience, though. We'll all see them soon enough.
Who knows. We may be sorry to see the Redbirds go after trying the R-142's and might end up wishing we'd NEVER seen them.
I was driving east in Branford on US 1 near the intersection of CT 142 when I heard a train horn and when I looked to the area where the Amtrak tracks are located I saw an AEM 7 headed east with some other equipment in tow. Has Amtrak energized the wire or were they just testing the catenary?
Most (but I don't think all) of the wire between New Haven and Boston has been energized. Did you get a look at the train's consist? I remember seeing news photos in the last month of an AEM7 running with some Amfleet coaches testing out some of the newly electrified catenary.
if the AEM-7 was the lead locomotive, had it's headlight on, and was making the typical AEM-7 blower/farting noises, then I'd say it was the real thing. I didn't hear that the wires were on that low, and amtrak seems to be pretty good at PR with this since I guess they're trying to save at least some face in light of Acela's not so spectacular intro...
The NEC is not going to be 100% Acela. Acela trainsets will replace the current Metroliner service, but the standard Amfleet/AEM-7 trains will continue to operate local (Keystone and Clocker) service. The Amfleet cars will be completely refurbished inside and be given a new Acela paintjob (I've already seen a couple in the new paint).
when will the 63rd street tunnel open and whats going to happen? how will it work??
And the winner of the most asked question on Subtalk goes to ...
when will the 63rd street tunnel open and whats going to happen? how will it work??
will there be any new lines or connecting lines opening ??
The 63rd Street connector and the various potential lines have been discussed at great, great length on this board.
Search the board over the last few weeks for "63rd Street tunnel" or something like that, and you'll get lots and lots of information, speculation, theories and so on.
Since I've never been on Amtrak north of NYC, I'd like to know this...
What was the whole electric story? There was no catenary between New Haven and Boston? Did electric trains turn back there or did they go another way?
They did the infamous "At New Haven, we switch locomotives from electric to diesel" thing. The Springfield section gets torn off there too, but for some reason i can't understand, it's at the FRONT of the train, thus meaning it gets out before the Boston section, ie, the boston one gets hung up for a while there. I think the New haven ran FL-9s to Boston, but amtrak uses AEM-7s and F-40s above New haven. When the new wires are done, they'll be running right up to boston, and NH will be just another stop. The Springfield trains are going to become a shuttle run by someone...
I'm simply amazed that amtrak took SO LONG to do this. They should have wired up to Boston in the 70's...
This is actually a truly great rail trivia question for anyone who's ever ridden Amtrak on the NE Corridor between NYC & Boston: What historic event interrupted electrification of the whole DC-NY-Boston corridor at New Haven?
Answer, as this group undoubtedly knows, is World War I. Rail novices will gasp at the idiocy of the 80-year delay. Impress your friends, try it today .
FYI the Springfield section is the last 2 cars of a train. I take that line to get to and from school. Amtrak pulls off the AEM and puts on an F40 on the Boston section. Its pulls out then the same is done for the Springfield Section. Is Amrak really going to turn the Springfield train into a shuttle service? That would suck for me because currently enjoy the luxruy of a one seat ride. I for one will miss the power change. I think that New Haven's the last place where you can see such an event on such a large scale. I enjoy the time I have to get out, walk around, take some photos, watch the lite engines zip around, talk with the crew, etc. Also north of New Haven is the last bastion for that old work horse, the F40. No, ugly GE's for miles around. If a NH-Springfield shuttle is started, will Amtrak run it? Amtrak ownes the Springfiled Line. Also if ACELA trainsets take over the Metroliners, could the displaced AEM's find themselves on Shore Line East commuter trains. And if the AEM's take over Shore Line East service would the GP-40W's be used on the NH-Springfield shuttle, maybe as a cheeper alternitive to Amtrak? I'd love to see an AEM in New Haven colours!
I dunno, the time's I've taken it, the hartford/springfield section was the first 2 cars, though i try to just get either the Vermonter or an inland rt train.
amtrak's been getting better with the switch there, freshperson year they were AWFUL with it. They still never get to NYC on time though.
AEM-7s on the SLE? It'd be cool (so would AEM-7's on the MBTA's commuter line down the NEC...) And it'd be needed for any service extensio - the M-2s can't do 25kv. I doubt CT will do it though.
GE's on the springfield line? No thanks. The F-40s may be old and slow, but they're faster than any GE pulled train I've been on...
It wouldn't be hard to convert the M-2's to 25Kv, just need to beef up the transformers. They could rix up a few trainsets, call them M-2+ or something and run them NH-NL or all the way through to NYC.
PS. Amtrak is always "on-time" at NYC. It would be impossible to be late with all the time table padding.
/*It wouldn't be hard to convert the M-2's to 25Kv, just need to beef up the transformers. They could rix up a few trainsets, call them M-2+ or
something and run them NH-NL or all the way through to NYC.
*/
They'd need a tap changer to get below about a mile north of NH. The voltage doesn't go to 25kv until you're a bit north of New Haven. That would add yet another thing to break to what's already an obnoxiously complicated MU. I don't even know if they have the space for it under there. To go into Penn, they'd need yet another tap to handle 11kv, AND they'd have to play with the firing logic too I think. And spare M-2s aren't exactly easy to get a hold of. Be a LOT easier to just slap a CDot / MN logo onto an AEM-7 and use that.
/*
PS. Amtrak is always "on-time" at NYC. It would be impossible to be late with all the time table padding. */
I've heard Amtrak calls 2 hours late "on time". I had a nice "discussion" with the conductor about this once (guess why). I call anything 5 min past the arivval time late.
Going back a little in history the Hartfrod/Springfield branch was served by Budd RDCs ... maybe they'll string wire and run LRVs ... nah
BTW, from NH there was a third line ... a very long time ago, it was the "Airline Route" to Boston via Middletown CT, now P&W goes there, but freight only (only as far a Middletown).
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, I know that line very well, but it never amounted to much. It was only single track and there wasn't room for improvement because all the bridges (and there are a lot of nice ones) are all single track. The "Air Line" sill crosses the CT river, but the tracks end about 1/2 on the ther site. I saw them loading huge low-level nuclear waste containers from that de-comissioned plant at the rail-head in Portland about 2 weeks ago.
<< I think the New haven ran FL-9s to Boston >>
Depending upon the time period, motive power could have been a DL-109, PA-1, GP-9, CPA24-5, RS-3, RS-11 or a FL-9.
Oh DL-109, Shark Nose ?, you're realy dating yourself ... yes the NH ran a lot of unique equipment ... makes for a modelers heaven !
Mr t__:^)
Amtrak has had other considerable capital needs that were arguably more important than Boston electrification (as long as its mandate includes maintaining a long-distance network). Once Amtrak finally decided to start the project, Connecticut NIMBYs delayed it. I think it's something of a minor miracle that Amtrak has managed to actually carry out this project.
Now if only the new trainsets worked...
That's funny. I've taken Amtrak from New Rochelle to Hartford four times. Only once was the Hartford section up front. It's usually only two cars (though it was three on Thanksgiving Sunday, but even that wasn't enough) Did they change it or is it according to management preference? They really should use DMU's to Hartford and Springfield. It is a waste to have a powerful diesel locomotive pulling only two or three cars when it could be pulling trains elsewhere.
Does anyone know what the fate of the Hartford/Springfield route will be after all-electric service to Boston begins?
Any minor correction. There were four lines running east and north of New Haven:
1. The Shore Line to Boston
2. The Springfield Line
3. The Airline to Boston via Middletown and Willimantic
4. The "CANAL LINE". It branched off the Main in down town New Haven and followed the route of the old Farmington Canal. Ran to Northampton, MA. This line was abandon in some areas and the ROW turned into Greenways and hiking paths. I rode a couple of fan trips with my father and brothers back in the early 50's. The line was freight only in later years, but I imagine there was passenger service in the early days. If you want to read an interesting book pick up a copy of Connecticut Railroads.
Wouldn't the "Air Line" have been the fastest route from Boston to New York. Why didn't the New Haven make this line its main line from Boston to New York instead of the curvy Shore line?
There`s been work going on at the substation just so.of Queens plaza for some weeks now.The sidewalk in front has been excavated and as of last night(Tuesday 11-30)the structure was dark,are they tearing it down?
We've been running a couple of threads about Washington DC's WMATA so I thought you all might be interested in a article in the Nov/Dec issue of the TRADE publication "Mass Transit". "Turning the corner at WMATA" by Van Wilkins.
It's nine pages, incl. several photos of subway & bus equip. and much yada yada, but enough detail & humor to make it a pleasent read, e.g.
- Formed '67, 1st service 3/27/76 over 4.6 miles
- Current planned 103 miles by 2001
- Rail at 764 cars, avg speed 59 MPH <--- NYC TA take note !
- Bus at 1,314, mainly to feed 5 rail lines
- Many deep tunnels incl. 557 escalators
"They became a prime drainage system for rain and other surface water into the tunnels ..."
- Tips for cutomers using bills: Iron them; rub accross a metal surface; brush across your hair.
- WMATA version of Fun Pass is $5.00 good after 9:30 AM :-(
- Local gov. plans a "TransitChek" type incentive that will provide a monthly tax free $65 on gov. worker Smart Cards (SmarTrip)
- WMATA/First Union may allow customers to add value to cards via ATM
Copyright Disclaimer: Have mentioned publ. & author by name & lifted less then 400 words from article.
Mr t__:^)
How does one subscribe to this magazine?
--Mark
"Subscription rates: $48/year US, $68/yera Canada.
Mass Transit PO Box 450 Fort Atkinson, WI 53538-0450
Editor = jim.duffy@cygnuspub.com
Publisher = paul.bowers@cygnuspub.com
If you're in the mass transit industry it's free. I've found it to have one or two articles worth reading each issue (every other month). Maybe somebody figured out if we have a reason to read it we might see the adv. too ?
Mr t__:^)
The TWU demands for 30 percent raises and 20 sick days are a joke. It seems that the TA now has its own joke -- a lower raise that the commuter railroads got, even though TA workers are more productive and get paid less.
Perhaps I'd be a bad negotiator, but I think its better to make a fair offer and stick to it, or decrease it in response to the counterparty giving you a hard time. At least you don't insult them. It worked for my house and my first car. After six hours of hectoring, I bought the car for what it was worth, which is what I said it was worth. And after six months of paying interest and taxes, the seller agreed to sell her house to me for what it was worth, which is also what I said it was worth.
The raise the TA proposed (2 - 2 1/2 percent per year) is not bad per se, and can be kept as is. It would be a fair comparable for public sector workers in general.
BUT TA workers deserve an additional raise, up front, on top of it to make up for the raises they didn't get in the past, and productivity gains they've made. Given ridership and productivity gains, and two zeros, 10 percent plus is not unfair to the rest of is, if justfied this way.
Some other public sector workers will deserve such a raise, others will not. As for the commuter railroads, well, if the MTA wants a strike that's the place to take it. Crime is down and uniformed police sick leave is down, so a big raise is merited, but the schools still stink, so I'd be more interested in raising starting salaries for teachers than salaries for those who are there.
How about me? They should downsize me and hire me back as a consultant for half the money. They don't use my talents effectively anyway, and I could do much better with the rest of my time if I didn't have to be here.
Forgot to mention -- the offer was described in the Daily News. Another thing -- the TA wants to keep wages down, but is willing to pay more for health insurance. That's not progress.
Re: Work rules at WMATA (from Nov/Dec Mass Transit article) ...
"Rail operation is fully automated. The operator's normal function is ONLY to check visually and then close the doors at each station. Key elements are some 24,000 relays ... manual operation (of train vs. doors) continues while a fix is devised for the relay difficulty." "When system-wide manual control was directed, the result was excessive brake ware."
I thought the TA wants the T/O to enter the station with "authority" ...hmm they WANT excessive brake ware ????
Sounds like WMATA wants to pay for Conductors vs. T/O ? Will they move them to center of train once they get the bugs out of the automated operation ?
Mr t__:^)
First of all, if you go from two people on a train to one, that's a big productivity gain, and employees deserve a piece of it. At the very least, the one person should be paid as much as a T/O today.
My guess is the idea is to have the automated system run the train, and the operator work the doors and over-ride the system if needed. Unlike Steve, I think this could work IF you also have conductors on the platform at curved and crowded stations. One person in the front cab could handle the doors at Avenue X on the Culver, allowing a few people to get on and off a half-empty train. Grand Central on the Lex is another story.
So it is possible that technology will permit the number of T/Os plus tower opeartors plus station personnel to be substantially lower 30 years from now than today. Hopefully increased use of automated transactions will cut down on office employees as well.
For safety and customer service, however, I still want at least one person on every train and in every station at all times.
--First of all, if you go from two people on a train to one, that's a big productivity gain, and employees deserve a piece of it.--
Gotta disagree with you there. Those who provide the capital to finance the investment which creates the productivity gain are the ones who reap the benefits. In private industry, these are the owners and the stockholders. In the TA's case, it's the taxpayers and the fare-payers. The employees provide service for a fee. When the service is no longer needed, the fee disappears -- it doesn't go up.
The one person who rides along with a fully automated train should be paid in such a way that those with the skills needed are attracted to the job. Those skills are far below what the train operators and conductors have today.
All that being said, I don't think we'll see the day that the NYC subway system is fully automated. Even ignoring all of the political considerations, it's simply too complex, with too many interlockings and too much potential for delay to run a 100% automated service.
Chuck
In a market economy, if you want people to do something, you've got to give them an incentive. For the government not to reward good performance is as stupid as not punishing poor performance.
It wasn't my intention to start this conversation all over again, but in any case I personally don't agree with the logic of OPTO. Not with so many people using the system and s-o-o-o many employees it seems to me that at least two in the crew is a bare minimum !
Is that the way it's going to be ... not very likely. The MTA "suits" talk to those in other cities, so they want to do this OPTO thing. It automation, it saves union salaries, it will make points for them with Virgial Conway .... why should they not do it ... customer service, that's not one of their priorities. Pardon me, I'll get off the soap box.
Disclaimer: This is obviously not a official position by the MTA/TA/DOT or my employer.
Mr t__:^)
[--First of all, if you go from two people on a train to one, that's a big productivity gain, and employees deserve a piece of it.--
Gotta disagree with you there. Those who provide the capital to finance the investment which creates the productivity gain are the ones who reap the benefits. In private industry, these are the owners and the stockholders. In the TA's case, it's the taxpayers and the fare-payers. The employees provide service for a fee. When the service is no longer needed, the fee disappears -- it doesn't go up.
The one person who rides along with a fully automated train should be paid in such a way that those with the skills needed are attracted to the job. Those skills are far below what the train operators and conductors have today.
All that being said, I don't think we'll see the day that the NYC subway system is fully automated. Even ignoring all of the political considerations, it's simply too complex, with too many interlockings and too much potential for delay to run a 100% automated service.]
I agree with you about the employees--it seems to me that a guarantee of employment in some area at an equivalent wage would be royally generous by the standards of most businesses.
We simply can't afford, as a society or a city, to pay people to do jobs that aren't needed anymore. Technology, and the economy, are moving too quickly.
But as to operation--the complicated interlockings make the NY subway an *ideal* candidate for automation, which can slash headway, operate cars as invdividual units, alter speeds and switches instantly. We're not quite at the point where an automated sytem could provide the full range of control that a tower currently does--pushing broken trains, bypassing stations, etc.--but with time we could indeed be 99% of the way there, and any reasonably designed automatic system permits system parameters to be changed at the control center. In no case is a train operator involved, except in the very rare case where he can fix something that the automation can't--and that's very rare, indeed, because the automation can detect the same problems--stuck doors, dead motors, etc.--as an operator can, and notify the tower as appropriate.
Truth is, we need automation quickly and desperately, partly for the economies it offers--why have people doing nothing when they could be building a second avenue subway?--and partly for the huge benefits it would give us in every area of operation--things like two minute headway service at remote stations at 3AM, a seat at rush hour without new construction, much higher average speeds and throughput, greater safety, car-zoned superexpresses that take riders to and from the business districts without intermediate stops.
Sometimes things interlock in a pyramid, with one improvement leading into another. I'd say that on the transit pyramid, automation is a glorious #2--#1 being privatization, because a private company free of unrealistic union or government constraints would automate the system in a trice, leading to the benefits of automation while slashing construction and operating costs in other areas as well.
[My guess is the idea is to have the automated system run the train, and the operator work the doors and over-ride the system if needed. Unlike Steve, I think this could work IF you also have conductors on the platform at curved and crowded stations. One person in the front cab could handle the doors at Avenue X on the Culver, allowing a few people to get on and off a half-empty train. Grand Central on the Lex is another story.]
It would work fine without. For one thing, in an automated sytem there's no reason in the world to have somebody sitting in the cab--the system can do a better job of guiding the trains than an operator can. An "operator" can sit in the conductor's position. For another thing, curved and crowded stations are easily handled by TV monitors, as they already are. They can be put anywhere. And for yet another thing, the safest system would use track doors and dispense with the conductor entirely. When was the last time you heard of someone being dragged to death by an elevator? Or pushed into an elevator shaft? Cut in two, maybe, but we're talking massively incompetent maintenance there, and if you treat anything like that you'll pay . . .
[For safety and customer service, however, I still want at least one person on every train and in every station at all times.]
I still say it's much more effective to assign people according to need, e.g., to high crime areas at night. And those unatended PATH stations really are fine--you don't even notice that there's no attendant.
But I don't think we can afford to put people places just because they've always been there. It just doesn't make sense, any more than elevator operators or those key ladies they once had on every floor of a hotel.
See what I mean, they are refusing to deal with us in good faith. Precipitating a strike. They really have underestimated the level of hostility they created in the last few years!
An example: a PATH conductor, we know how small that system is. A PATH conductor makes $25.01 per hour compared to a TA conductor's $18! And we do a lot more under more difficult circumstances as well. $280 dollars a week more for a whole lot less. I have said this is not about money it's about issues. But since it has come up, this is a great way to point out the high regard our beloved MTA holds us. All the conductors in the area make at least 6 bucks an hour more than we do. So we have something to gripe about here.
So get a job with PATH. The PA is crazy to pay $25 hour for a low skilled job
Tony -- Low Skilled job -- Why don't you do it -- Fool
The point is that PATH -- and the commuter railroads -- can afford to PAT and the commuter railroads are able to pay more because of money sucked out of NYC, but your raise is coming out of your passengers' hide, not anywhere else. I'll accept that AS A RESULT OF IMPROVEMENTS IN RECENT YEARS TA workers deserve a raise, and I'm willing to pay for it. But those other agencies are sinecures, not jobs, so they are not comparable.
Its like the Cops in Nassau. Sure they get paid more, but Nassau is broke as a result. I can't wait for Pataki to figure out how to make my pay for that too.
So you've got to compare yourselves with people who earn their paycheck, and pay yours, not those cashing in on political influence.
(BTW -- before suburbanites start to claim that city residents are not funding the commuter railroads, consider this. There has been a huge increase in the share of expenses covered by the farebox at the TA, but not in the commuter railroads. If the operating subsidiaries are fiscally independent, how come the TA doesn't have a big surplus and the other agencies a big deficit? Its because a greater share of the dedicated tax and toll revenues are flowing out.)
[(BTW -- before suburbanites start to claim that city residents are not funding the commuter railroads, consider this. There has been a huge increase in the share of expenses covered by the farebox at the TA, but not in the commuter railroads. If the operating subsidiaries are fiscally independent, how come the TA doesn't have a big surplus and the other agencies a big deficit? Its because a greater share of the dedicated tax and toll revenues are flowing out.)]
As far as I know, City residents are funding the commuter railroads, and other suburban/upstate boondoggles, like crazy; the commuter railroads receive much higher subsidies from the state. But I'd love to see some actual figures on tax flow and such.
(Tax flow)
Based on analyses done by DCPs transportation division, things were pretty even steven before Pataki came in, and before the TA improved the share of the system covered by the farebox (remembers those commuter RRs serve city residents too).
Things have deteriorated since then. It isn't that suburban fares are too low, or the service is too good, its just that the cost is obscenely high (over $7.00 per ride). So while I can't blame them for trying to find efficiencies at the TA, the big waste is elsewhere. The goldbrick days may be gone at the TA, and Mr. R46 says. They live on elsewhere.
The waste is with all the TA managers and officials. All getting $85,000 to $150,000 a year plus limos and drivers. Now the new building across from Bowling Green on Broadway. How much did that building bebuild cost? This is where the waste is. Eliminate the fat cat salaries and there will be plenty of money for a decent pay raise for transit workers and for the Second Avenue subway!
[The waste is with all the TA managers and officials. All getting $85,000 to $150,000 a year plus limos and drivers. Now the new building across from Bowling Green on Broadway. How much did that building bebuild cost? This is where the waste is. Eliminate the fat cat salaries and there will be plenty of money for a decent pay raise for transit workers and for the Second Avenue subway!]
Their salaries are actually quite low for what they do, and the Second Avenue subway would cost as much as $10 billion, depending on the plan.
Why does no one ask why it will cost $10 billion? Or why those subway cars cost $2 million each? I think we're getting clobbered on the capital side.
[Why does no one ask why it will cost $10 billion? Or why those subway cars cost $2 million each? I think we're getting clobbered on the capital side.]
I agree. I'm using the RPA's estimate here, which is based on deep bore, rather than cut and cover, and a four track line, and I assume that they're taking the government factor into account, and inflating the price by 3x the actual cost.
All just a guess, of course, because I'm not a civil engineer, but I am an electrical engineer and I cringe every time I hear what the TA is paying for a new system. The Canarsie automation is a perfect example--$138,000,000, and it's supposedly a loss leader! I've really been very polite here, because THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS STUFF COSTS unless government buys it. They say it was bid competitively, but bidding for government projects begins with a fudge factor the size of the universe--and if you ever propose doing it for less, just watch what happens. We're in $1000 wrench territory, and worse.
[See what I mean, they are refusing to deal with us in good faith. Precipitating a strike. They really have underestimated the level of hostility they created in the last few years!
An example: a PATH conductor, we know how small that system is. A PATH conductor makes $25.01 per hour compared to a TA conductor's $18! And we do a lot more under more difficult circumstances as well. $280 dollars a week more for a whole lot less. I have said this is not about money it's about issues. But since it has come up, this is a great way to point out the high regard our beloved MTA holds us. All the conductors in the area make at least 6 bucks an hour more than we do. So we have something to gripe about here.]
PATH is obscenely subsidized by the Port Authority. Subway riders have reason to gripe, too, about the fact that they pay $1.50 for a ride that costs PATH customers $1.00.
Still, $25/hour would seem to me a reasonable wage--it's the low end of what we pay skilled wiring people in my own business--if it weren't for the union sillyness; after all, we don't offer lifetime employment, we don't have stupid work rules, and we can fire people who don't do an adequate job.
[Some other public sector workers will deserve such a raise, others will not. As for the commuter railroads, well, if the MTA wants a strike that's the place to take it. Crime is down and uniformed police sick leave is down, so a big raise is merited, but the schools still stink, so I'd be more interested in raising starting salaries for teachers than salaries for those who are there.]
Yes--I think we should be worrying about paying teachers what the market requires rather than paying others what it doesn't.
The LIRR raise is an obscenity; as usual Pataki favored his constituents rather than doing what's right.
Does anyone know how many passengers an M-1 or M-2 car will seat?
Has anyone tried using a Funpass in PATH?
I tried it - it didn't work.
Did you think that it would?
-Dave
Didn't someone post a message some time back claiming that a weekly pass did work?
Exactly so - that's why I tried it.
I don't believe the trains are Cubic (NJT buses are). Someday the MetroCard may extend to NJ, but not for 1.50 with no additional cost.
I can see a extra fare or milage based cost, but probally not until the Smart Card replaces the dip/swipe version. The MTA would also have to change it's "only we can collect the money" attitude.
Mr t__:^)
I had someone come to my bootgh and claim their card did not work. I quickly checked their card visually and inserted into the computer which advised that the card was invalid class (error code 45). I checked the cartd and noticed it wasd a Chicago card.
That's because it was a Pepsi card vs. a Coke card ... seriously these cards are starting to look more and more alike (same mfg., similar advertizments, etc.).
Mr t__:^)
Can't blame the guy for trying!!
Remember when the Garden State Parkway Token worked in the turnstile?? hehe
MetroCards don't work on the CTA system, either.
But I figured it was worth a try. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I once used a $15 MetroCard on the PATH at WTC. It said I had 50 rides remaining on it. But when I tried using it again at Newark, it wouldn't work. And a cop was coming over to check what was wrong with it. That was back in 1994. I don't know now in 1999.
By the way, PATH doesn't have their own fun pass.
12/04/99
How can that be? PATH's farecard is rigid paper. Metrocard is plastic. Their turnstiles accept farecards and most times return them. You mean to tell me their turnstiles accepted the Metrocard?
Bill Newkirk
A co-worker who lives in Brooklyn Heights asked why the A train was screwed up today -- long wait for a packed train. I guessed that whenever there is a problem like that it has to do with the Rockaways -- perhaps a frozen switch due to wind-blown freezing water near the trestle. Anyone have direct knowledge of what went on this morning.
There were no major incidents on the A line this AM. There was one train where a customer was holding doors and that caused several trains to be backed up behind it. Sorry there's no more to it than that.......
(Service delay due to passengers holding doors).
Doesn't take much these days, does it? Too bad there aren't cameras to take these guy's pictures. They could then be printed with the caption "this selfish jerk delayed thousands of people by several minutes on the morning of __ ___)
when do the r38s run all the way to far rockway statring from the 207 th
street station ?? do you have to wait
until 300 pm for rush hour service ??
You just have to wait and look out for one.Any interval can have either an R44 or R38.
That's true. I've had to let as many as four or five trains of R-44s go by before getting a train of R-38s. Sometimes you just have to be patient.
They've been doing track work (I assume) on the Jamaica Bay trestle late nights and middays recently--maybe it wasn't entirely shipshape in time for the morning rush?... I came in Sunday night at JFK to find I had to take a bus to Rockaway Blvd; realized I'd forgotten a bag at the airport; went back out this morning, and found they were running shuttle trains from Rockaway Blvd (some even signed "H".) I've spent a lot more time than I expected this week on cold, windy platforms in Queens...
Some parts of the A line need to be fixed. If it isn't done, then there is is risk of repairing it during the height of the rush hour.
In the Daily News, the LIRR is looking to build a station in the Sunnyside Yards. This station is part of the East Side access study and will be the last stop in Queens before Grand Central. If everything goes according to plan, construction will begin in 2002 and last for eight years??
3TM
54St. Transfer to R and V trains down on the lower level. The Q18 bus on the street level. G train making local stops to Little Neck Pkwy. The next stop will be 61St. Step in and stand clear.....
Although the Sunnyside station is proposed as part of the LIRR GCT project, I believe it would situated west of where the new connection will be to go to GCT. So, it would be used only for trains headed for Penn Station.
How long are the platforms at Penn Station?
12/01/99
A new LIRR station in Sunnyside yard? Who will use it....Amtrak employees?
Bill Newkirk
I think that they're expecting those who work in the Citibank building out there to use it and perhaps expecting some additional development in that area. I think they're looking at it as an "If you build it, they will come" scenario, without Shoeless Joe. I don't agree with them.
Chuck
Many Subway and El lines were built out into farmland in the middle of nowhere. All of these areas suffered from development.
When the fiscal crisis in the 70 hit, why didnt NYCTA start slashing service? If you look at a late 70's map there was a lot of useless service being provided. why didnt they consolidate service in order to save money and keep the consolidated service running better?
They did cut service in the late 70's. Many lines that had full service 24/7 were scaled back. The AA stopped running from 1 AM to 5 AM. The B, GG, and N service became shuttle operations late nights which forced the A and F trains to provide local service in Manhattan and Queens respectively. Also since the N became a shuttle that eliminated 24hr express service on the Broadway BMT. Once upon a time there was 24/7 express service the trunk lines in Manhattan as well as the Queens IND. Today the only 24/7 express train is the D, and I'd bet it's days as a 24/7 express are numbered too.
Wayne
why do u think the d's days as an express are numbered? i think they have to keep the d running express it makes no sense to run that train local at night.
Considering the fact that it's only 2 local stops that the D skips, and that the 63rd. St shuttle runs local late at night, there is no need to run the D ocal.
What about along CPW?
3TM
68St. The next station is 74St. Connection to the Q47 to LGA. Stand Clear........
With the A running local during the late hours, the D has the CPW express tracks all to itself. It doesn't have to merge with the A. Besides, the R-68s need all the help they can get. Making the D run local at night would make it even more tedious than it is now.
Other 70s cutbacks included dropping the EE and K routes as well as the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle. IMHO, that shuttle was an extravagance, as South Ferry isn't all that far from Bowling Green. Just up the block, as a matter of fact.
The new trend seems to be two local services and no expresses on the trunk lines late at night. The D running express on CPW is the exception. If they follow the trend, the D will run local from the Bronx to Columbus Circle during midnight hours. It won't stop at 23rd or 14th because there will already be two local services there. Which means the only express tracks operating 24/7 will be the 6th Ave. express tracks that first opened in 1967.
[why do u think the d's days as an express are numbered? i think they have to keep the d running express it makes no sense to run that
train local at night.]
You're probably right, but I never expected the NYCTA to eliminate late night express service on the #2 either - so i figure the D can't be too far behind. I'd be happy if the D remains a 24/7 express.
Wayne
As planed ,the 'Y'train was the main letter code for this line.If this is so , what would the others be for the branch lines [63 st,Dyre Ave.,etc;]be. Also,does anybody think the MTA would ever finish the Acher Avenue route to south Jamaica via the LIRR Atlatic branch.
Does anyone think some of the IND SECOND SYSTEM lines [worth st.,utica ave.etc]could be built.
The Archer route to South Jamaica probably will never be built due to political considerations, (LIRR vs. subway). The IRS Second System is pure fantasy at this point. Right now all the concentration is on the 2nd Ave. Stubway, and most of us will probably be retired before that comes into service.
This 'stubway'will not be worth the money [our money,by the way]wasted on it.Oh sure,it will be nice, but if it's not built as planed who will really use it.
It won't help the Lexington riders because it won't be in the Grand Central area nor lower east side. In other words,the 2 ave route won't be in the C.B.D.. This 'stubway' may sound like a good idea to some ,but dont let the MTA hoodwink you.We paid for a full 2 ave route with branchs years ago.Why should we as tax payers pay for this ghost subway line over and over and get 5 stations,only one connection at one end ,and no Bronx,Queens or Brooklyn service.
This new route should be constructed as planned or give us our money BACK.
Oh, I fully agree with you. This stubway idea is a disgrace. The city floated a bond in the 1950's to build the 2nd Ave Line and spent the mony on other things. I'm only stating what they are going to do, not what we want or what makes any sense.
Take the AirTrain being built at JFK. It won't give a one seat ride to Manhattan, its not compatable with the subway, and the proposed "el" over the Van Wyke will make a nightmarish traffice situation even worse. Even the politicians who supported it don't think it is such a great idea, but they decided a poor plan is worse than no plan. It is thinking like this which is why our transportation network is 50 years behind where it should be.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
This 'stubway'will not be worth the money [our money,by the way]wasted on it.Oh sure,it will be nice, but if it's not built as planed who will really use it.
It won't help the Lexington riders because it won't be in the Grand Central area nor lower east side. In other words,the 2 ave route won't be in the C.B.D.. This 'stubway' may sound like a good idea to some ,but dont let the MTA hoodwink you.We paid for a full 2 ave route with branchs years ago.Why should we as tax payers pay for this ghost subway line over and over and get 5 stations,only one connection at one end ,and no Bronx,Queens or Brooklyn service.
This new route should be constructed as planned or give us our money BACK.
Oh, I fully agree with you. This stubway idea is a disgrace. The city floated a bond in the 1950's to build the 2nd Ave Line and spent the mony on other things. I'm only stating what they are going to do, not what we want or what makes any sense.
Take the AirTrain being built at JFK. It won't give a one seat ride to Manhattan, its not compatable with the subway, and the proposed "el" over the Van Wyke will make a nightmarish traffice situation even worse. Even the politicians who supported it don't think it is such a great idea, but they decided a poor plan is worse than no plan. It is thinking like this which is why our transportation network is 50 years behind where it should be.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
You couldn 't be more on the money ! QUEENS is the prime example of how the MTA and NYC fail to adress the needs of the many . ROBERT MOSES FLU.If you don't watch out ,it'll get you .
Queens is the largest boro in NYC and out side of staten island ,the boro with the worst rapid [HA]transit problems.Now.take the Archer Av.line.Why wouldnt the MTA complete the southern branch to Springfield Blvd.'We ran out of funding for the southeast extention'.
63 street.THAT is the best joke I EVER heard.
A waste of time ,money ,effort.I wonder how many kids went to higher education with transit money ,but then again I wouldnt have to look to far out side the MTA's own office's.
The MTA probably feels, 1-Let them take the LIRR from East of Jamaica or why do you think we put Express Busses there, so you can get to the City without a transfer. Forget it. It most likely never happen
They might eventually run the D local north of 59th St. at some time, but D service from 34th to W4th will almost certainly remain express.
Yes, I agree - it would make absolutely no sense to put the D on the 6 Ave local tracks only to put it back on the express tracks a minute or 2 later, but then again we are talking about the TA here. Being that the E and 2 trains are now late night local - it would not suprise me if they make the D a local between 145th Street and 59th Street.
Wayne
The 6th Ave. express tracks lead directly to the Manhattan Bridge, so it makes sense to keep the D as it is now along 6th Ave.
It is doubtful they will ever make the D a Local anywhere in Manhatten. They have the A to run Local on CPW
They also have the 1 to run local on Seventh Avenue.
That didn't stop them.
"They also have the 1 to run local on Seventh Avenue.
That didn't stop them."
It didn't stop them from putting me on the local tracks either.
SHAME ON THE MTA!
N Broadway Local
These are two different kettles of fish. The 1 has run local since around 1960, when all IRT trains continuing due north along Broadway past 96th St. were made locals. The N has been stuck on the local tracks in Manhattan since the south side tracks on The Money Pit closed.
I got the impression that the E being local is only temporary; due to the construction work over there. When the 63rd St connection is finished, they'll probably restore it.
I don't see any reason it shouldn't be permanent. I think that before when they ran the G to 179th just so they could run the F to 21 Street was stupid.
The G is useless.
As for running the D local on CPW, good idea, but on Sixth Avenue, you already have two locals.
No, the E running local in Queens at night is going to be a permanent service change.
I do not want to start another thread but what will happens when the 63St connector opens? Will the E still go local?????
3TM
82St. Transfer to the Q32 to Penn Sta. Connection to the Q33 to LGA. The next station will be 89St. Connection to the Q19B. Stand Clear..........
Probably, for the same reasons the 2 and 6 now run local late at night. If I lived in Queens, I'd rather have locals running every 10 minutes then both express and local service every 20 minutes.
I assume the S will be eliminated and the F will return to 63 Street and continue on to 179th. Then, the D might be rerouted to stop at 14th and 23rd for connection with the L.
It wouldn't make sense to run the D local down 6th Ave. just for the sake of making two additional stops. Then again, the TA has had a history of doing things which make no sense.
At the same time, we can only speculate as to what service patterns will be implemented once the 63rd St. connector opens.
A safe bet is that the F will run through it late at night. I dont see any other 24 hour/7 day a week line runing through 63rd. St. to Queens.
The D may yet keep it's 24/7 express service. On the run along 6th Avenue there are 2 local services operating overnight -- the F and the Queensbridge to 2nd Avenue shuttle. So there's already local service at 14th and 23rd every 10 minutes.
On the CPW local part of the line, there's little demand for overnight service any more frequently than every 20 minutes.
Chuck
And that’s not all. Some lines were eliminated outright, namely the Bowling Green - South Ferry and Culver shuttles, #6 service to South Ferry, and the EE and K lines.
They did slash service during the fiscal crisis. For example:
1975: elimination of the Culver shuttle
1976: elimination of the KK and EE service. N service extended beyond 57th to compensate for the lost EE service in Queens
1977: Closing of the 168th, 160th and Supthin Blvd stations on the Jamaica Ave. el. Elimination of the Bowling Green shuttle.
They did slash service during the fiscal crisis. For example:
1975: elimination of the Culver shuttle
1976: elimination of the KK and EE service. N service extended beyond 57th to compensate for the lost EE service in Queens
1977: Closing of the 168th, 160th and Supthin Blvd stations on the Jamaica Ave. el. Elimination of the Bowling Green shuttle.
Not all N service ran from Coney Island to Forest Hills. A lot of the N service that ran in Queens ran to Whitehall St., not Coney Island.
Some N trains were turned at Whitehall St. during rush hours, which essentially provided a direct replacement for the EE. During that period, N trains ran local in Manhattan during rush hours against the flow of traffic (southbound AM, northbound PM), which I frankly didn't understand.
The closing of the outer end of the Jamaica line had little to do with the fiscal crisis. There was a lengthy discussion of this not too long ago, so I won't repeat anything here.
Ahhh, but they did.
Previous posters have already listed some of the lines that were cut back or discontinued outright.
Trains were shortened during mid-day and nighttime hours to save on electricity costs.
But besides all that, the TA was considering cutbacks in a big way. In 1975, the TA considered cuting nighttime service much more drastically that what actually happened. although some of these things still happened ....
- All nighttime route duplication would end. (i.e. no 4,5, 6 trains up Lexington Avenue)
- No nighttime expresses at all. (The D still runs express at night).
- The following services would be replaced by buses: Fulton St service between Euclid Ave and Lefferts Blvd as well as the Rockaways, Broadway (Brooklyn) El service end to end (168th St at the time), Myrtle Ave line to Metrop'n Ave, B & F service in Brooklyn (but I don't know how much of these lines would have been cut back).
When word of this got out, the reaction to it was swift and angry. The TA initially denied it, then admitted it was considering this.
--Mark
What is the Number cause of subway Accidents becuase accidents do happen but what causes them?
Every single accident in mass transportation since the Titanic can, at least in part, be linked to human failure. On the NYCT system, everything is designed against a 'single-point failure'. This means that the failure of one component in any system should not result in an accident. What usually happens is either straight-out human failure (like 14th St.) or a combination of things (like 135th Street).
[Every single accident in mass transportation since the Titanic can, at least in part, be linked to human failure. On the NYCT system, everything is designed against a 'single-point failure'. This means that the failure of one component in any system should not result in an accident. What usually happens is either straight-out human failure (like 14th St.) or a combination of things (like 135th Street).]
There are also those bums who pee on the third rail . . .
There are many long transfer passages in the NY Subway system, many just as long or longer than the ones you find in airports. Airports have figured out that a good alternative to walking these long passages is a moving sidewalk. The MTA could install these moving sidewalks in high pedestrain traffic areas with long passageways. Just like in airports there'd still be a choice to walk but the quickest way will usually be on the moving sidewalk. The first two locations that should have them are the 42nd St. Stations. The transfer between the 7 and the D and the transfer between the A and the N. Does anyone have other stations that should have them? Has the MTA ever thought about this?
That would be great, however...
I've seen two types of moving walkways:
One kind is essentially a huge rubber belt you stand on. This is great until some vandal takes a knife to it... (not as big of a problem in airports, of course)
The other type uses metal plates - essentially a flat escalator, but we all know the MTA's track record with those...
So I think it's a great idea, but not very practical for now.
[That would be great, however...
I've seen two types of moving walkways:
One kind is essentially a huge rubber belt you stand on. This is great until some vandal takes a knife to it... (not as big of a problem in airports, of course)
The other type uses metal plates - essentially a flat escalator, but we all know the MTA's track record with those...
So I think it's a great idea, but not very practical for now.]
The height of some of these passageways is limited and they may contain jogs. It seems to me that that would place some interesting constraints on the design of a system, which would have to have practically zero clearance from the ground--wheels on the sides, with plates hanging down from them, turning at the end, and running down the other side.
Main problem: how do you accomodate the fact that most of the width of the passage must be used for unidirectional travel during rush hours? It can be done easily if there's plenty of vertical clearance, but if there isn't it's a more interesting problem.
The other obvious candidate is 14th St. between 6th and 7th Aves. But there are quite a few doors along that passageway with various TA offices, so there would need to be access for those. Are they on both sides of the passageway or just one side?
[The other obvious candidate is 14th St. between 6th and 7th Aves. But there are quite a few doors along that passageway with various TA offices, so there would need to be access for those. Are they on both sides of the passageway or just one side?]
Don't remember, but a narrow walkway would do the trick.
A moving sidewalk would make excellent sense in that passageway between the A/C/E station at 42nd Street and Times Square. But durring construction (which of course will take an eternity), the passageway would have to be considerably narrowed. That would be too much of a headache.
Moving sidewalk in NEW YORK CITY??? Come on now, the place where everyone is rushing around, head down get out of my way you slow poke tourist??
You can say that if this is installed that ANY NEW YORKER would actually stand on it and be "moved" along. NO WAY. We can't even be like the DC Metro on escalators, Stand On the Right, Walk On the Left not to meantion the TA track (pardon the pun) record with the beasts. Moving Sidewalks in NY, No way Jose.
There are many reasons why moving sidewalks might not work, but to address standing vs. walking:
The MTA should definitely do more to get people to "stand right, walk left" on escalators. I know London has signs all over the place advising people to do so. NYC needs that. I think it would help tremendously with traffic flow in busy stations.
Trouble is that most people in london prefer to stand up the escalator. During peak times, this reduces capacity, so that a couple of train loads of people at a busy station can result in a queue to leave the platform. Occasionally, LT staff stand at the bottom of escalators, asking passengers to stand both sides.
12/03/99
Another reason the moving sidewalk won't work , again vandalism. I can see vandals hitting the "Emergency Stop" button just like they do with the escalators. And when it stops , people resume walking just like before the moving sidewalk "concept".
As far as walking up and down the stairs keeping right , the TA has installed some "arrow" signs that aren't to clear. Besides this is New York , people usually ignore signs and do what they want anyway.
Bill Newkirk
[Another reason the moving sidewalk won't work , again vandalism. I can see vandals hitting the "Emergency Stop" button just like they do with the escalators. And when it stops , people resume walking just like before the moving sidewalk "concept".
As far as walking up and down the stairs keeping right , the TA has installed some "arrow" signs that aren't to clear. Besides this is New York , people usually ignore signs and do what they want anyway.]
There would be relatively few moving sidewalks. They could easily be monitored by cameras with VTRS and watched at random--something that should be done in those passageways during off hours anyway.
Actually, capacity will not improve unless everybody walks at a speed faster than the escalator, and most don't. Once, I went down the escalator the wrong way because some hooligan set both escalators from the 7th to 9th floor at school to go up. I had to run faster than I normally do down stairs to make it down. And people are slower going up. If I enter a crowded escalator going up with no room on the right for me, I'm standing on the left, I don't care about all these people and their precious 15 seconds.
Of course, where I do almost all my escalator riding, at school, standing is on both sides if the escalator is working, with those who want to walk excusing their way down (or up, which I never do on escalators).
Then good if people walk! People will then walk FASTER!
[A moving sidewalk would make excellent sense in that passageway between the A/C/E station at 42nd Street and Times Square. But durring construction (which of course will take an eternity), the passageway would have to be considerably narrowed. That would be too much of a headache.]
The way the MTA does things, yes. The way technical things are done in business, it would be in, up, and running in a week--completely modular construction, pre-tested, with the components segments ready to be carted in and bolted in place by the numbers.
[There are many long transfer passages in the NY Subway system, many just as long or longer than the ones you find in airports. Airports have figured out that a good alternative to walking these long passages is a moving sidewalk. The MTA could install these moving sidewalks in high pedestrain traffic areas with long passageways. Just like in airports there'd still be a choice to walk but the quickest way will usually be on the moving sidewalk. The first two locations that should have them are the 42nd St. Stations. The transfer between the 7 and the D and the transfer between the A and the N. Does anyone have other stations that should have them? Has the MTA ever thought about this?]
As with so many things, the MTA seems content to avoid the issue. You're right, it's a natural--a perfect example of how a small investment would significantly improve service for many.
They could start with the abandoned 33rd St passage connecting PATH with Penn Sta. It is already closed, so there would be no disruption. Since it would be moving, the old problem of the homeless would be eliminated. I often hope that is what they are doing behind those walls, and that it would suddenly open for service one day.
[They could start with the abandoned 33rd St passage connecting PATH with Penn Sta. It is already closed, so there would be no disruption. Since it would be moving, the old problem of the homeless would be eliminated. I often hope that is what they are doing behind those walls, and that it would suddenly open for service one day.]
That makes a lot of sense.
I don't remember that passage myself (which has me a bit mystified, since I used to go from the 7th Avenue to PATH occasionally as a kid), but I hear it's not all underground, and it's pretty sleazy . . .
As I said in an earlier sequence, the TA needs to improve its speed. I looked up a schedule and measured it against the Brighton Line today, and guess what. The Q from Brighton Beach to Church is scheduled to average just over 20 miles per hour. That's the easy part of an express, before the stall at DeKalb and the Crawl over the bridge. Ride a D and you get just 15 miles per hour over the easy stretch. That won't do.
Larry. One easy solution to speeding up service would be to eliminate most of the stops. I just tried to get a schedule of the Q off the MTA site, but the schedules were not available. What were the figures you used? I would guess that the distance between Brighton Beach and Church is about 4 miles. If you figured about 20 mph, then I would imagine the running time is 12 minutes. How much of that time is spent in slowing into a station, station dwell time, and accelerating to speed. With 4 stops, I would guess that's at least 4 or 5 minutes.
If you want to study the D train, there's 11 stops between Brighton Beach and Church.
I just found an old copy of the Little Red Book--The Complete Street Guide to Brooklyn from 1962. In the back they had the different subway lines listed with running times from one terminal to the other. Back then the Brighton Express ran from Ditmars Blvd to Brighton Beach a distance of about 19 miles in 57 minutes. Which breaks down to about 20 miles per hour. They show the running time from Church to Brighton Beach as being about 13.5 minutes. They also show the Brighton Local doing that distance in 17.5 minutes. How much of a difference are the times now?
(1962 running time Brighton Beach Ave to Church: 17.5 minutes local, 12 minutes express).
That's really interesting. I have the paper schedule in my office, so I don't have the Q either here at home, but I think it was about 12 minutues. I was able to snatch the D off the website (hit stop just before it finishes loading) and it is scheduled to take 18 minutes over the same distance. So I guess in this stretch things aren't any worse than 30 years ago.
But they aren't any better either.
I recently took Amtrak from Philadelphia to Wilson, North Carolina.
The 550 mile trip took EIGHT long hours. Cars on the highway parallel
to us were flying by. A few monthe ago I rode the A train from Port
Authority to Schermerhorn. We flew! Amtrak has to get off freight
tracks and go underground.
68.75 mph average speed is not bad at all considering stops and all
Even in a car that is average speed over the speed limit with no stops.
When I drove bus over the road in the mid 70's the ICC let us run about 500 miles in 10 hours. or a max average speed of 50 mph.
An average train speed of 68.75 ist bad at all. What is the running time from DC to NY right now on AMTRAK and how many miles is it?
The fastest Metroliner currently on the schedules takes 2h59 between NY and DC, over 225 miles. That's an average speed of 75.4 mph, with up to 7 intermediate stops.
A typical NortheastDirect train takes maybe 3h30 between NY and DC, for an average speed of 64.3 mph, with up to 10 intermediate stops.
How much does a ticket cost for round trip between NYC and DC?
3TM
74St. Connection to the Q47 to LGA. Next station will be 82St. Transfer to the Q32 to Penn Sta. Connection to the Q33 to LGA. Stand Clear
How much does a ticket cost for round trip between NYC and DC?
A lot!
A quick check at reservations.amtrak.com says:
$116 one-way on the Metroliner
$71 one-way on all-reserved NortheastDirect
$65 one-way on unreserved NortheastDirect
Round-trip fares are just two one-way fares. Metroliners are cheaper on weekends; NortheastDirect trains are more expensive on Fridays, Sundays, and busy travel days around holidays.
Amtrak fares are so wacked. For me its $40 from Meriden to Philly, $40 New Haven to Philly, $40 Meriden to Newark and $40 Newark to Philly. Its like the fares are arbitrary.
8 hrs for 550 miles? I would say that is pretty good.
And you're complaining?!?! Our North Carolina home is near Bunn, about 25 miles west of Rocky Mount, so I've ridden the RMT-NWK run many times. It's a heck of a lot less stressful than driving all the way, which from our Eatontown, New Jersey house is 465 miles and takes about 8 hours 15 minutes with one brief stop (hey, I drink a lot of RC cola, what can I say, but the van can go nearly 700 highway miles without a gas stop). Yes, it takes longer overall, simply because I have to go quite a bit out of the way - Little Silver to Newark on NJT, then to Rocky Mount on Amtrak, and then the last 25 miles home by car - but I don't have the stress of driving I-95 either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's no question that speeds could and should be boosted a tad.
During my last visit in October, I watched the speedometer during a southbound run between 34th and 14th Sts. on an A train of R-38s. We sailed past 23rd St. at about 36-37 mph, and got up to 40-41 on the downhill sprint to 14th St. Quite frankly, I thought there was very little difference from what the R-10s used to do on that same stretch.
I'm happy to report there was a significant first as well: I took a northbound A from W. 4th St. right after checking into my hotel, and wonder of wonders we passed 23rd St. at 25 mph. I don't think any northbound A train I ever took did more than 20 mph for reasons I will never understand. Even the R-10s used to crawl past 23rd St. The few R-1/9 trains I rode along that stretch moaned along at F# below middle C, which was still faster than any train of R-10s!
CPW was another story. No comparison between the olden days and today.
I have a design for a perfect subway. To have seating like a R-38, to have plastic windows (Recycleable, easy to clean, harder to notice scratches.) Double-sided trip cocks so that the car run under both IRT and BMT lines. Special Little Bridges so that crossing cars can be less dangerous. Disc Brakes for better braking. Digital Signs like on the R-44 or R-40 (I forgot which one) With the digital sign how much time to the next station (estimated time)Easier control panel for Conductoring and for driving. A special component if the signal is clear ahead the train can be started and through special signal can tell the train at which speed it can travel and the you will have a car that will travel at the specific and not loose control, and there is the perfect car. Whatever that you think can be fixed or improvements let me know.
Also speed and comfort in the same car.
Wall to wall carpeting, plush cushion seats, waiter/waitress service, cable TV and Internet access.
Well I can dream can't I?
AS LONG AS IT HAS A """RAILFAN WINDOW"""" REPEAT!!!!
A rail fan window !!!! thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com
Wall to wall carpeting, plush cushion seats, waiter/waitress service, cable TV and Internet access.
Well I can dream can't I?
What about live entertainment and free drinks?
Well I would assume the waiter/waitress service would supply the free drinks. As for entertainment, use your imagination.
I dunno about waitress service--they might have trouble getting back and forth on the train with your free drink at the evening rush, when you need it most. How about a bar next to the railfan window?
On my perfect train, there would be no standing. Everyone would have a nice plush sheet, and every car would be a bar car. The train ride would be so smooth that not a drop would every be spilled. All trains will be on time so that you can set your watch to it.
They could install a central beer system with large kegs under the cars and taps located convienantly throughout the cars. A rack of unbreakable stiens would be available by the doors. I have heard that this system has had geat sucess in many of our nations Frat houses.
They could install a central beer system with large kegs under the cars and taps located convienantly throughout the cars. A rack of unbreakable stiens would be available by the doors.
Such a subway car should be kinown as the Boozer Cruiser!
12/04/99
Joisey Mike,
If these cars were like unitized R-68's that a had a full width cab on one end , the opposite end cab could be a bathroom....Well you know about beer and.....
Bill Newkirk
If these cars were like unitized R-68's that a had a full width cab on one end , the opposite end cab could be a bathroom....Well you know about beer and.....
Yeah! and also a beer tap inside the bathroom with another supply of steins.
12/05/99
BMT Lines,
[Yeah! and also a beer tap inside the bathroom with another supply of steins]
I guess this would work perfect on the (7) line in the STEINway tunnel. Har Har Har Har yuk yuk yuk !!!!!
Bill Newkirk
[Yeah! and also a beer tap inside the bathroom with another supply of steins]
I guess this would work perfect on the (7) line in the STEINway tunnel. Har Har Har Har yuk yuk yuk !!!!!
Bill Newkirk
Also on the G and R lines, which stop at STEINway st.
OK, a rim shot for each joke.
The bathroom could pose quite a problem. I've only used the bathroom on a train once and was shocked when I went to lift the toilet seat and saw the tracks going by below inside. I don't even want to consider what would happen if, by chance, using the bathroom completed an electrical circuit between the third rail. OUCH!
Hey, if you'd had enough beer, you'd never notice!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Plus, you'd never notice (or care) that your train wasn't going much faster than 30 mph.
The dual tripcocks are useless, car width is a bigger concern, and for the cost, one can universalize CBTC. I'd like R-44 seats that are cushioned, and a smooth ride without excessive brake noise like on some Redbirds (but we need the pleasant train sounds to stay to drown out walkman noise and annoying voices) and of course, the only mod in the seat plan of this vs. the R-44 is that there's to be a railfan seat.
I think the seating should be like the low-density car of the SOAC.
Where is that???
Where is that???
Here's the photo:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/soac/soac6.jpg
here's the page:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/soac/
When I asked "Where is that?" I meant what city? I had no idea that was in NY but I learn something new everyday on this site!!!
When I asked "Where is that?" I meant what city? I had no idea that was in NY but I learn something new everyday on this site!!!
The information was right on the link I provided.
The SOAC was an experimental train of "State of the Art Cars" that the United States Department of Transportation sponsored in the 1970s. It was a two car train that ran on the NYC Subway and in Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, and elsewhere. The two and only cars are now at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. The SOAC cars were 75 feet long and 9.75 feet wide, and ran on IND/BMT lines in New York City. Maximum speed was approx. 80 MPH.
Information not provided by nycsubway.org is that it was built and ran in 1974 in regular passenger service on the following lines in this order:
D, N, A, E. They had carpeted floors. One car, the low density car had soft plushy seats. The other, the high density car was like a carpeted R-44 with padded seats. BTW, even though the cars were capable of 80 MPH, I don't recall them going over 55. This was undoubtedly due to track and signal constraints on our antiquated system. The SOAC was nice. I was in college at the time. I was pretty much a regular on it after classes. I even have a pewter SOAC tie clip that I received courtesy of the cars' manufacturer, Boeing-Vertol.
Personally, I'd take a BMT Standard with air-conditioning and leave it at that.
Well, let's see. For starters, it should be, oh, 60 feet long, with a nice storm door window on each end for railfan viewing. Four sets of pneumatic doors on each side, with step plates and trigger box door controls. No headlights. Route and destination signs on the bulkheads along with nice, legible signs on the sides. Spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Throbbing air compressors. Air conditioning. SMEE braking. H2C couplers. A nifty teal and white paint scheme. Capable of doing at least 50 mph along CPW. And least but not last, permanently assigned to the A line.
The end result? A cross between an R-1 and an R-10, with a few modern amenities added.
Even though it has A/C it still must have the fans, ceiling fans that is, not the little desk fans like on the R10,R12!!
OK, I'll buy that. Five big old ceiling fans in the clerestory (I forgot about that) which would emit a "wadawadawadawada" sound as they rotated. Oh, and enough heating capability to make passengers feel warm and toasty during the winter, and which didn't come on all by itself. (Just for you, Wayne.)
The perfect car should have a small private compartment for the subway's version of the airline's Mile High Club!!!!! By the way, is anyone here a member?? (The subway version that is!!!!)
I'm posting this message to both SubTalk and BusTalk because the Newark subway is somewhat a cross between a bus and subway.
I rode the Subway today for the first time since pantographs came into use. I have a few questions about Fares, Branch Brook Park Station and the new LRVs.
1. What's the difference between a ticket with transfer and ticket with continuing trip? The NJT site says the machine was supposed to say something about that, but I didn't read the machine.
2. How are transfers administered now with the POP system?
3. Are the monthly passes rolling date (like Metrocard) or calendar month (like the railroads)?
4. How do you stamp a 10 trip ticket? Or is it just 10 different tickets?
Will Branch Brook Park station be used by the PCCs? Will the LRVs ever use Heller Parkway or Franklin Avenue station? Basically, in what order will the station be opened, the other stations closed, the extension opened, and the cars replaced? Will the PCC ever coöperate with the LRVs?
Will the subway go to CBTC?
And finally, will the new LRVs floor be exactly at platform level obviating the need for ramps, or will ramps be installed like on LF busses?
I would have to say the stupidest fare system is the one that still exsists today on the Metra Electric Line.
They use the traditional ticket/conductor system and also turnstiles.
I rode to Pullman last week-end and used the 115th St. Station on my way there. I tried to exit through a turnstile and got a hard kick in the stomach.
I then remembered that you need your ticket to enter and exit the system. However I had rode with a week-end pass which doesn't have the magnetic turnstile strip on it. I was about to jump the turnstile for the 1st time (ever in my life!) when I saw the handicapped gate and exited through it.
Then on my way back I used the Pullman/111th St. Station which is falling down with no entrance signs, ticket machines or turnstiles. I don't think they even had lights for night and no roof!
Upon arrival at Randolph St. I then had to show my week-end pass to the agent.
My opinion is that turnstiles don't work on a Commuter Rail-Road or any system unless an agent is on duty at all times. Especially if you have to exit through a locked turnstile. There are only station agents at 3 of the 50 Electric Line Stations, so get ride of the turnstiles! The rest of the system works fine w/o them. If you are going to pay the conductors anyway, why not!
What do you think??
BJ
PS: I then rode the CTA Red Line up to the North Side to eat at Leonas and realized how easily their fare system really works!
I agree 100%! I've always thought that the turnstiles are a gross waste of money if there are still trainmen, whose only job is to check tickets. The ticket vending machines are probably a great money-saver and I find them very convenient, but there's no reason why machine-dispensed cards have to be read by a machine. Indeed, because the trainmen have to check the tickets, the Metra Electric tickets ARE human-readable. But the converse isn't true -- a ticket sold for the rest of the Metra system is valid on the Electric line, but because the turnstile can't read it, you have to be let through by a station attendant if there is one.
Basically, with the Electric line, we have the worst of rapid-transit fare practice (turnstiles and the congestion they cause) combined with the worst of commuter-train fare practice (paying for multiple trainmen on each train so that everyone's ticket is checked). To be fair to Metra, they didn't institute this Frankenstein system but were saddled with it from IC days, IIRC.
By the way, there are supposed to be "PAL" phones (something-or-other Active Link, IIRC) at the unmanned Electric stations, where someone with a South Shore or non-Electric Metra ticket can talk to a remote operator who can buzz them in.
I've always thought that Metra should install ticket machines on the other lines but leave the turnstiles out. There are a lot of stations where you can't buy a ticket (although you can buy on the train, of course) because the traffic doesn't justify a live ticket agent. But Metra seems to have this idea that the ticket vending machines and the turnstiles are intrinsically linked.
The first generation magstripe junk came to the IC in 1965 when I still lived there. So how many years is it since Metra(RTA/) has owned/been the purveyor of the service? Point is they need to rethink the fare control(AND fare structure) First off the current junk should be replaced with CTA compatible equipment. Second as a matter of policy the CTA fare should apply to all service within city limits regardless of route. And yes the ex IC should be a two body crew situation . A conductor solely concerned with train safety/ doors etc. and no ticket taking. That was after all the original idea when IC bought the stuff.
Also, in 1965, the IC was more like a rapid transit than a suburban commuter rail operation. A large fraction of their passengers were actually totally within the city of Chicago (stations through 115-Kensington and the whole South Chicago Branch), and the service to these stations was several times an hour even in non-rush hours (I recall mid-day weekday schedules showing a train every 20 minutes in the late 60s). With that type of operation, station-based fare controls (i.e.-turnstiles) made a lot of sense. A lot has changed in the past 30 or 35 years.
-- Ed Sachs
Your supposed to use the blue phone to get in contact with
one of the Metra employees for that sort of thing.
Turnstiles don't work if anyone can just walk on the right of
way to hop onto the platform either. Metra is a bitch about
ticket agents too, if you board a train and attempt to buy your
ticket on the train and if there was a ticket agent on duty it's
an extra $1 charge. But if the station you boarded didn't have
an agent at the time, then they cannot charge you the extra $1 on
the train. They'll try anything to get money out of you.
"Metra is a bitch about
ticket agents too, if you board a train and attempt to buy your
ticket on the train and if there was a ticket agent on duty it's
an extra $1 charge. But if the station you boarded didn't have
an agent at the time, then they cannot charge you the extra $1 on
the train. They'll try anything to get money out of you."
BIG DEAL. What agency DOES NOT do this? If you don't have your ticket on LIRR or MNR it's $2, on NJT Rail it's $3 and on the NJT Newark Subway it's $100.
One thing I do not get is how systems that use turnstiles but no ticket agent there prevent fare evasion. The example of this closest to me is PATCO. I once jumped the turnstile out of the station upon receiving a bad ticket. I did use the phone once and it did work. Another time, a policeman saved me the trouble and let me out. I do not know how they do it.
PATCO employs Big Brother to prevent fare evasion. Big Brother watches the turnstyles through several cameras and then whenever possible a transit cop is routed to intercept the fate evader. Also with PATCO you have to jump twice thus doubling your chanches of detection and I also know that during the weekday rush where are transit cops stationed at most PATCO stations. At the Haddonfield station the handicapped gate was left unlocked and once upon returning from I trip with many heavy bags I opened the gate, placed my bags on the other side, then went back and used the turnstyle.
Can someone tell me where the best places are for street musicians? Does anyone have any favorites?
TIA
I don't think he qualifies as a "street musician", but my favorite subway performer has always been the guy who Latin dances with the blow up doll. I haven't seen him in a while, but when I did go that way he was often at Times Square, right near the Shuttle.
Chuck
The IRT mezzanine at Union Square has had some awfully good jazz bands recently, despite being one above of the squealiest platforms in the system, and despite the "moving platform" announcement. The TA schedules them, believe it or not--maybe they have information available. A couple of talented guys used to work Astor Place (w/o official sanction), but they haven't been around in a while. There's also a guy who likes to play his saxophone on the D train crossing the Manhattan Bridge at sunset.
Moving platform announcement?
ian
"Moving platform announcement?"
Please stand clear of the moving platforms as trains enter and leave the station.
Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but a recent thread
described the following consist:
/-R40-|-R40-\_(Yellow Car)_/-R40-|-R40-\
I've seen this train pass a few times
behind my house (from my kitchen window):
The yellow car appeared to be a Division-A
work car - it wouldn't be the R.A.T. (rail adhesion
train), would it ?
(Applies a jel to the running rails for better traction.)
I've also spied the following:
[-R32-][-R32-][-R27/30-][-R32-][-R32-]
(not able to discern the # of the center car)
which IS the R.A.T.
(... maybe someone could set a few traps ...)
Question: the TV-movie "Aftershock" (Nov. 14, CBS):
were the cars used in the subway scene the new R-142's ?
<were the cars used in the subway scene the new R-142's ? >>
Nope, that was the Toronto subway. If the people up there were smart, the next order they make for new cars would be designed to look like a R-142 or R-143, since so many TV shows and movies use Toronto as a NYC replacementto save money.
Actually, Toronto just scrapped some of their H-1 (H-2?) cars, didn't they ....
--Mark
I know of only two cars have been converted to use as Rail Adhesion Cars. One car runs on the IRT and the other runs on the BMT/IND. R33 8885 became a work horse by circumstance since her companion was cut up for scrap at President St due to an accident a few years back. The car's currently stored at E180th St Yard in the Bronx, for use on the Dyre Av line since that ROW is located along a string of trees. Falling leaves (especially wet ones) will cause havoc with a train's wheels. R30 8429 is what you saw between R32s. The Brighton and Sea Beach lines will need the car most of the time since the two are located under the trees. The leaves will create a lot of slippage for the wheels of R68s or anything else that roams the area. The purpose of the gel car is to maintain the friction a subway car's wheels have running on a particular stretch of rail.
-Stef
Might be R-15 RD-335 (ex.5965), an ageless Yellowbird of 1950 vintage. Or could be any of the other rider cars/work motors. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for this strange train of Slants.
Wayne
A few weeks ago I mentioned a show about great American train wrecks on the history Channel and a few posters asked about it. Well I just discovered its on right now from 0200-0300. (At least in NY) And no, it doesn't have Malbone or the LIRR Thanksgiving wreck.
By the way, does anyone know why my cookies disappeared. When I came to the sight my name & Email were missing
Did you have a visit from Cookie Monster? :-)
Seriously, I have the problem from time to time, usually caused by visiting some other site that writes to the cookies file improperly. When my older son is visiting it happens all the time (a naval history board he visits is guaranteed to mess it up).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's happened to me a few times. I guess our cookies go stale after a period of time. lol
That's happened to me a few times. I guess our cookies go stale after a period of time. lol
Stale cookies? Put em in a Ziplock bag.
Can someone explain to me how do LIRR engineers and conductors pick jobs? Is it similiar to NYCT as far as extra lists, floaters, yard tricks and WAA's?
Do Engineers get qualified first on electric equipment and then diesel?
I can't answer your question with the depth you are looking for, but I know something of how the system works.
Everything appears to be broken down into numbered and detailed "crews." A crew, usually consisting of an engineer, a conductor and a brakeman, travel the entire assignment together. On diesels, the engineer reports earlier and is released later than the rest of the crew.
Even jobs like the engineer who sits in a relief engine near Harold all day in case there is a breakdown is a regular pick.
There is also a "guaranteed extra list" which you also pick onto.
For brakeman, there is also a job called Collector which travels back and forth multiple times a day, hopping on and off trains to help the regular crews collect tickets on especially busy trains. This is also a regular pick and tends to be low priority.
Picks are strictly by seniority and. for conductors/brakeman, it seems to take about 15 years on the job to get something vaguely like what you want.
Notice to Employees (Includes Part Time Workers)
SICKNESS
We will no longer accept your doctors statements as proof. We believe if you
are able to go to the doctor, you are able to work.
LEAVE OF ABSENCE FOR SURGERY
We are no longer allowing this practice. As long as you are employed here, you will need all of whatever you have and should not consider having anything removed. We hired you as you are, and to have anything removed would certainly make you less than we bargained for. Anyone having operations will be FIRED immediately.
PREGNANCY
In the event of extreme pregnancy, you will be allowed to go to the first aid room when the pains are FIVE MINTUES apart. IF it is false labor, you will have to take an hour's leave without pay.
DEATH
This will be accepted as an excuse, BUT we would like two weeks notice, as we feel it is your duty to teach someone your job.
From,
THE MANAGEMENT
Wow, the TA is getting to be more and more like the Police Dept!!!!
This morning on my ride in on the Q (R40Slant 4256) as we start the downgrade into Newkirk Ave (this starts at Ave H) the T/O is apply brake, coasting, applying brake. Further past Ave H the conductor gets on the PA and says "Just a reminder folks that D and Q trains operate a reduced speed into Newkirk Ave because of leaves on the tracks".
No sooner then he finishes this statement, R68 D lead by 2720 slams past us at track speed and beats us into Newkirk Ave. (BTW, it left Kings Hwy well before the Q arrived).
I couldn't help laugh, guess the 68 ain't a hippo after all.
I have to ride the railfan window, I know there are station timers into Newkirk but we never hit them. I think they posted yellow painted boards on both tracks to force the trains to slow down but I'm not sure.
It would have been even funnier if that D train had encountered leaves on the tracks. I wonder if the D conductor made the same announcement on his train.
Correct me if my memory is wrong. Up until a couple of years ago, coming into Newkirk from Ave. H especially on the local, there were very restrictive timers that the train almost had to come to a stop with. I don't remember it as severe on the express track, although I may be wrong. This had been a long standing condition, similar to the restrictive timers between 7th Ave & Atlantic, which I think were also greatly liberalized in the last couple of years.
As long as I am talking about speed, there was a section on the D/Q uptown either between Grand & Broadway Lafayette or Broadway Lafayette & W.4, where there were a couple of curved stretches of tracks, which if you were riding toward the rear of the train, would feel like the cars were going to leave the track. It used to scare the hell out of me. I haven't noticed it as much lately, whether due to slower trains or a generalized lessened state of my anxiety level (since becoming a worshipper of the devil---- just a touch of humor ). Did anyone else ever feel that way ( about the track, not the devil) ?
How about this for a humorous twist on that section of track? There was a woman in my car giving some testimony about her faith in the Lord and warning the passengers time was running out. As the train entered this curved section moving at a very high speed, she became excited and said " You've had your chance--- It's too late now ----Prepare to meet your creator --- We're going to die going around this curve!!!
Seriously, there were times I would look at fellow customers to see if anyone else seemed concerned.
There are timers on both tracks manhattan bound, I forget if they are ST or GT but I think they are no less then 20mph. I need to ride the head end soon.
Today I took the D, my feet were killing me, wanted a seat for the ride. We DID slow to a crawl after leaving Ave H into Newkirk. And while we were stoped at Ave H. the Q crawled past us going slow as well (We opened up at Newkirk just as the Q left, more pax bitching about that).
I had a no-luck time getting in. I notice a 12:13PM post on Thursday followed by a 3:06 Fri. Morning post. What happened?? 15 hours w/o SubTalk almost killed me. (Just kidding) Well....WELCOME BACK SUBTALK
Here's the hypothetical situation:
A female tower operator charges her supervisor with sexual harassment for unwanted touching. During the investigation, it comes out that the Dispatcher did not touch the female with any sexual intent. He tried to restrain her from leaving her post 1 hour early, against his wishes.
The rest of the story
The Supervisor had frequently permitted the female tower operator to leave early - no strings, sexual or otherwise. On this day, the disp. needed her to stay for her entire tour and she refused, hence the touching.
Discussion Questions
What action should be taken against the supervisor?
What action should be taken against the tower operator?
Was she paid for the routine hour off, or was it unpaid or annual leave? If she was paid, fire them both, assuming the rules permit (if they don't permit, bad rules).
If she wasn't paid, and was given permission to leave early unpaid (child care or something) and they were otherwise good employees, try to get them to work it out, or otherwise transfer them away from one another with a warning that more hassles like this could result in dismissal.
As Larry Littlefield suggested, why the supervisor was letting her go early is an important consideration. I would view it also in relation to how much discretion dispatchers have in letting people leave early. Even if there were no strings attached, was this a case of favoritism in the workplace.
As to the tower operator, you would have to show me why she shouldn't be fired. "Bearing false witness" is serious enough that it'e one of the Ten Commandments. And her motive was especially venal. She was willing to get her supervisor in serious trouble with a false and potent charge.
Think of it as similar to your neighbor falsely telling the police you committed a crime because you complained about his barking dog.
You know, the inspector General commonly instigates suspensions on supervision in case of personel not being available when they are being paid. Supervisor hypothetically got a demotion. The rule book prohibits striking or making menacing gestures. The Supervisor in this case would have been better off calling the crew office and writing the TW/O up as AWOL. Charges against the TW/O would have to be dropped due to lack of Prima Facie. TWU would have a field day at Arbitration defaming the Supervisor, escpecially if the 30 Working Day window has elapsed.
Theft of City Services for us non transit types for being AWOL.
Rule 5 "Reporting for Duty"
(a)"Wilful neglect of duty, serious breach of disipline"
Rule 10 "Conduct of Employees" for the TA
(c)"..treat all passengers and fellow employees with courtesy, avoid argument and exercise patience, forebarance and self control under all conditions."
(d)"Employees must not make threatering gestures towards, or commit assult or battery agianst... even under the greatest provocation."
You forgot rules 6b and 6c about falsifying time records.
I will tell you that in our hypothetical case, the sexual harassment charge was unfounded. No further action was deemed necessary. However, the supervisor was charged with falsifying time records, padding the payroll & theft.
What will happen to him?
What should happen to the tower operator?
If the time records were falsified, they should both be fired. Let them sort out their conflict with each other in court -- not our problem. From the point of view of the taxpayer/train rider/other workers, they colluded to rip us off, and are a detriment to the system. That's the way a private company would handle it, I'll tell you that.
In a case like this, it is not to go on YOUR opinion as to what should be done but by the rules and contract and/or intervention of the Inspector General as to what will be done to remedy a situation like this. The contract specifiaclly states that in cases of fraud or crime which requires intervention of an outside oversight, the 30 day working day window to process and issue a DAN does not apply. However in this hypothetical case, there are more severe implications involved. For instance what if the ATD and relief T/D have knowledge? What if there are train crew personel involved? How many persons would YOU be willing to fire? Would you put up with 20 minute intervals while half of the TA personel are out of service visiting the IG's office? The TA doesn't want to know. They have been able to break their own bulletins and rules to keep service moving. They have fraudulently misled investigators outside of System Safety after accidents involving injuries and fatalites. In fact in the case of the Power Distribution persons caught in the act of leaving early in the Chief article four months back, only the foreman and sperintendant were given real discipline. The ringmasters if you will. That is why the TA threatened the union leaders in the Post early this week on promises of dismissing striking workers. I'd like to see the TA go after the shop stewards literature and tear down my bulletin board. Just more ammunition I can haul into court. And if you go to any of the terminals, you will see that train operators and conductors are very angry at the TA. And you know there isn't more then one or two reps on a given line at any time. So who is really leading them? Fire me fire us all. Live in fear. December 15 is near.
[However in this hypothetical case, there are more severe implications involved. For instance what if the ATD and relief T/D have knowledge? What if there are train crew personel involved? How many persons would YOU be willing to fire?]
Knowledge is not complicity. Everybody knows about things that go on, but it's not a fellow employee's business to rat. Unless someone was in a supervisory position and failed to act, or benefitted from the deal, I don't see any reason they should be held responsible.
It seems like a pretty open and shut case--fire the supervisor. If the employee was stealing time with or without the supervisor's complicity, fire her too. To the extent that these basic things aren't done, they're another strong argument against the union system, and make the MTA's actions more understandable.
We don't know if it has happened before or not. If it is the first offense for either termination is not likely. Suspension is possible written warning a must. Who know what an arbitrator would say. I expect a suspention would stick in the case of the supervisor a reassgnment may be appopriate. We dont know who instigated it but the supervisor likely started out being benevelant to help out an employee in need and the employee saw on opportunity and pushed expecting a situation to be repeated.
Thats why managers get hard If they try to be nice and help someone it comes back and bites them. Good luck to all of them.
Larry, Paul, and Harry: stick to your day jobs and don't try to practice law. Unfortunately, at times the law and common sense diverge in opposite directions.
At the very least, Harry is a union rep. When stupid stuff like this happens, his day job is to be my lawyer.
This being SubTalk, not LawTalk, my impression was that we were being asked for a reasoned personal opinion.
You are right, this is subtalk. And we've discussed racial issues, mayoral term limits, sports and astrology. If you don't like the subject, don't respond and it will go away.
The dispatcher should have had her pay cut for the time she left early and written up leaving her post and given a 5 day suspension.
The supervisor should get a 30 day suspension for physically touching the dispatcher and dereliction of duty for his past behavior.
Thanks for making my agrument a little easier. If the TWO has an emergency and went home, it does'nt matter why or how she was paid, it matters that she gets her pay. If she chose an emergency AVA she could not get paid in accordance with the contract as only sick pay can be issued in quarter day increments. That leaves a problem here. One that should be solved by the crew office, not the local supervision. Even if a run is completed 15 minutes early and an employee must go home, time can be cut for the remaining minutes. My point is the TWO made the intention known that he/she was going home. Thats all that matters. If TA wants to harrass him/her afterwards, they probably will but NO ONE can say I must remain for eight hours! There is nothing to charge the TWO with. The TWO was not AWOL. If it came out at arbitration that the employee frequently left early, that might be another matter but would do the dispatcher more harm than the TWO. If the TWO wasn't written up before, then everything is allright by the TA until this point. Unless the dispatcher gives up day, dates and times, the TWO is safe for now. Unless they assign a TSS to look over the Tower. No more newspapers, dark lights and the long sticks used to manipulate the route buttons :-)
Clarification of our hypothetical case:
The TWO stated that she simply wanted to leave early - not for an emergency. She stated that this was a regular practice that she had engaged in with the cooperation of her supervisor. She did not want to use AVA or Vac or OTO time. She wanted to be paid for 8 hours work as she had been previously.
Not much any honest rep can do for that. Nuff said.
Fire them both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Here's the hypothetical situation:
A female tower operator charges her supervisor with sexual harassment for unwanted touching. During the investigation, it comes out that the Dispatcher did not touch the female with any sexual intent. He tried to restrain her from leaving her post 1 hour early, against his wishes.
The rest of the story
The Supervisor had frequently permitted the female tower operator to leave early - no strings, sexual or otherwise. On this day, the disp. needed her to stay for her entire tour and she refused, hence the touching.
Discussion Questions
What action should be taken against the supervisor?
What action should be taken against the tower operator?]
Supervisor--dismissal. He has no right to physically harass an employee who hasn't committed a crime or created a hazardous situation, whether his intentions are sexual or not.
Tower Operator--If this is her first offense, and assuming her actions didn't endanger anybody, a formal warning, probation, and a permanent entry into her record with dismissal at the time of the next serious offense. (She should really be fired too for gross insubordination and willful failure to abide by her contract, but legal practicality seems to mandate a warning for all but the most severe infractions).
Am I missing something?
In this hypothetical she charged her supervisor with sexual harassment. Does anyone else care that she has committed perjury?
Is this more fallout from the escapades of our President?
Perhaps I should care but it would as bad as the RTO union VP who pressed charges resulting in the dismissal of a railroad clerk a few years back so I abstain. Like I said the TA won't care if it only involves the parties involved. On the hypothetical line involved, one of the superintendants, of whom I may have had run ins with and disagree with the facts involved with his hiring, is an OK manager to me. If I had to drag down good people, I would think twice before submitting a G2 on a matter such as this. The trouble is that at Step Hearings of this matter, there are no court reporters present with cameras and tape recorders. There is no true justice at Arbitration or Trial Boards. Period. If she is charged with lying, she would go to step one. At that time the TA might feel obligated to change the charges when they receive the Supervisor's statements. Unlike an arrest where you are Charged with a crime, then visit a judge or jury to be tried. In the TA, you are Guilty until PROVEN innocent.
The Dispatcher was charged with various charges including padding the payroll, theft and assault. The recomended penalty was dismissal. He had two options.
One would be to go to trial board where he'd face the possibility of five (5) outcomes.
1) Dismissal of the charges - least likely since he admitted to most of the bill of charges.
2) Reprimand - Not very likely
3) Suspension - Somewhat likely
4) Demotion - Reasonably possible
5) Dismissal - extremely possible
The second option would be to cop a plea and make a deal.
The dispatcher in our hypothetical case opted for the latter and was demoted to a train operator sans his seniority.
Harry - All that is left is to determine what charges, if any, should be brought against the TWO. This is where I'd really like to hear from you and Eric.
[The dispatcher in our hypothetical case opted for the latter and was demoted to a train operator sans his seniority.]
Wait a moment--this guy *physically restrained* a fellow employee, and your telling me he wasn't dismissed?
Even in the union situations I've been in, physical assault resulted in instant, no questions asked dismissal.
For something to be assault in NYS there MUST be an injury. Thats not negotiable, THATS THE LAW. Just restraining her (if the sexual contact was proved false which the hypothetical situation stated) can possibly be harassment or most probably no crime. If he is guilty of anything its allowing her to leave early, which she is guilty of too. In the Police Dept that would be failure to supervise.
[For something to be assault in NYS there MUST be an injury. Thats not negotiable, THATS THE LAW. Just restraining her (if the sexual contact was proved false which the hypothetical situation stated) can possibly be harassment or most probably no crime. If he is guilty of anything its allowing her to leave early, which she is guilty of too. In the Police Dept that would be failure to supervise.]
It may not be legal assault, but how about false arrest and slavery? You can't physically restrain an employee from leaving the premises--that's bizarre and outlandish, and it's against the law.
I find it shocking that the system doesn't permit, not to mention mandate, dismissal for that sort of offense. Makes me wonder how they handle normal stuff--people routinely showing up late, mouthing off to customers, that sort of thing.
In our Hypothetical case, the restraining of the hourly employee merely involved grabbing her arm. We are not talking criminal assault (At least I don't think so) but we are talking about violation of TA rules and policies on both sides. It should be brought up that local management was also accused of condoning the payroll padding, putting them on the defensive.
We know what happened to the Supervisor in the case. I'm still waiting to hear from our resident TWU Reps., Eric & Harry, to find out their take as to what should be done with the Tower Operator.
Part IV in our little Labor Relations exercise will be tomorrow.
I don't condone her past practices as it make the good honest workers look bad but as HER REP, No DAN, No Plan. She can't get days in the street without the charges filed. No paper suspensions and no dismissal. Best we could do for her is reinstruction for a "possibly alleged" violation. Which amounts to nothing. If the supervisor makes a deal for his old job back and names dates and times, then we would have a problem. The thirty working day window is shattered in cases involving fraud and crime of a nature that warrants outside intervention, such as a D.A, I.G., P.D. or other investigators. Thats all we have to work with. No body, no crime.
To begin with I'll apologize for my absence. Little injury
while coming down from the Willy B. I'm ok and will
probably be back to work as soon as the TA quack says so.
The Tw/O in question, what does it read exactly on her
DAN? What did Lela Lord write in? I know whatever it was,
Satan's minion on earth, Lenny Akselrod approved it first.
Did it read violations of rules: 8(a) Employees who
knowingly submit, or make, reports containing false
statements shall be charged with misconduct and
incompetence.
Rule 10(a) Employees are required to avoid behavior which
would tend to create adverse criticism of the Authority or
of the system. ( I like that one! We should charge Joe
Hoffman after the brake mod debacle!)
Rule 11(e) reads in part: they must not neglect or shirk
any duty.
Rule 5(a) Absence from duty without proper authority is
regarded by the Authority as willful neglect of duty and a
serious breach of discipline.
And the usual tack on's: rules 2(a) 2(b) 2(d) and 4(a)
If it read as thus, then I'd also have to see the recomended penalty and I would want to see the Tw/O's DAN history. If she's got a full page of prior DAN's then I'd tell her she'd better start looking for another job.
The penalty Labor Relations wants, if it's re-instruction, or a written reprimand with no time, then I tell her accept and count her blessings. They go for 2 or 5 days(not lately, read my posts on that one?) I tell her take it and don't cry. 20 days? Well then we have to go to the arbitrator. That's a dice throw, but what choice does she have?
On the flip side of the coin. The Authority is justified in a case like this, and as a union rep, these are the kinds of cases we loathe. I hate to say it. She shouldn't be fired. But there's call for time served.
That's my two cents worth.
In the "hypothetical" case, I have heard nothing of a prior DAN backing the dispatcher's claim he let her go early frequently. 10A and 11E would stick. Depending on her version of the G2, I would advise her that if she felt harrassed by him putting his hands on her, than it was an accurate written report and she filed the appropriate charges. He should have never restrained her, he should have written her up and cut the time. He would still have his job. 5A is a funny predicament here because if there is an emergency case where an employee must go home, the crew office must be notified. However there is no written policy as to who should make the call so I would argue that the supervisor is the one who has time cut. What employee would volunteer to get their own time cut? As I said before, because the supervisor took illegal actions on his own behalf, he paid the ultimate price and unless he can admit to all that he let the TW/O go at this time and that time therefore opening the can of worms upon the TW/O, she can not get days for something she wasn't CHARGED with.
SO now the dispatcher has been demoted and he has his handles back. All that is left in our hypothetical case, is to decide what should be done to the hourly employee.
Rule 6c prohibits an employee from allowing another (even a supervisor) to make false entries on their time records.
Rule 5a states that all absences from duty must be approved in advance unless in the case of an emergency.
Rule 8a states that making false or incomplete reports constitutes gross misconduct and is grounds for dismissal.
In our hypothetical case, Labor Relations decided not to take any action for the false report of sexual harassment.
Again in this hypothetical case, Labor relations failed to take any action regarding the numerous illegal absences admitted to by the employee. They also took no steps to recover any overpayments to the employee. In fact, they took no action what-so-ever against this employee for payroll padding.
To paraphrase what they used to say on 'Dragnet' The story you have just seen is true. The names have been omitted to protect the innocent." And that is the real joke here.
It is a joke.
You have two less than honest and now disgruntled employees. Bet you they both resent the organization. People can rationalize just about anything.
These suspensions, demotions, etc. just leave you with resentful employees. That's why, nasty as it is, the private sector would rather fire someone who is worth a few less dollars than they're getting, and hire someone in, than cut someone's pay. Better to cut people loose.
[These suspensions, demotions, etc. just leave you with resentful employees. That's why, nasty as it is, the private sector would rather fire someone who is worth a few less dollars than they're getting, and hire someone in, than cut someone's pay. Better to cut people loose.]
And when people in private enterprise are demoted, as they occasionally are, they almost always leave on their own. (In the few sad exceptions I've seen, the individual was grossly unqualified for the original position, knew it, and decided to stay. Frequently in such cases management plays along by leaving them with their old title but stripping them of authority, or creating an entirely new position.)
[Am I missing something?
In this hypothetical she charged her supervisor with sexual harassment. Does anyone else care that she has committed perjury?
Is this more fallout from the escapades of our President?]
No, I'm the one who missed something. If it can be proved that she lied about her supervisor, not only should she be fired, but she should be sued for sexual harassment and everything she's worth.
My cousin-in-law went through something like this--he fired an employee, who falsely charged him with making sexual advances. He went through a year of hell--at one point, his lawyers were telling him he would probaby go to jail. Fortunately, the woman who had made the charges had gotten her friends to implicate him, the investigators found a mass of fabricated, contradictory testimony, and the suit and criminal investigation were dropped. But I have no sympathy for someone who would put someone else through that.
Frankly, they both sound pretty vile to me. So I'll change my vote--fire them both, let them sue one another, be done with them.
My vote too. They've already taken too much management time. The question for an organization is what is best going forward. Cut 'em loose, and ask some hard questions of the next level up.
The woman leaving her job early without permission obviously needs to be disciplined, and perhaps fired. But the supervisor who tried to physically restrain her should be too. Surely that is not the way to secure employee performance - with physical force. He should have warned her of the consequences of leaving early, but not tried to physically stop her from doing so.
The question of whether they had colluded in the past on falsifying time sheets is a separate one, the above discussion relates to the final incident.
The media is reporting that the TWU is backing off the strike threat. Seems like Willie has figured out that he cares more about the riders than Pataki does, and is floundering around. So what alternatives does the TWU have? I've thought about it, and come up with an alternative that's perfectly legal would bother subway riders in any way, but would bother other people a lot.
As I said, the TWU is a de facto monopoly for travel to Manhattan, because if everyone tried to drive there no one could. How about having Willie say that TA workers are being dissed relative to commuter railroad employees, and TA riders are being dissed in the capital plan, so we might as well exercise our right to drive?
Not in a convoy, not blocking the box, not violating traffic laws (if it can be helped), but just having 10,000 off duty TA workers fill up their tanks and drive into and around Midtown for a few hours on a weekday -- say from 3 p.m. to 10 p.m. If other unions join in, it could be devastating -- Midtown would lock down, and all the suits would be stuck in traffic. Imagine 20,000 teachers finishing school and driving in. I might even join in.
Beats walking over.
Would this not violating traffic laws (if it can be helped) be similiar to not violating the Taylor Law (if it can be helped)? You can't spend weeks telling me I can't break a law and then say something like that. Breaking the Taylor law will at the most result in inconveniencing people. Breaking traffic laws can, depending on which one has been ignored, have results as serious as death.
As for driving, a lot of us do drive already. How do you think I get to 241 St at 5:00am from SI without being exhausted already. Mass transit, I need to leave at 2:30 and hope I make all my connections. Driving, I can leave at 3:45 and still have plenty of time. I just exercise my right to common sense and avoid midtown, especially at this time of year, when it is ALREADY at a standstill.
Workers being dissed as to commuter roads? Come on, Larry, these are the people who physically attack us in RTO on a regular basis. Do you really think we could ever convince them to be nice to us?
Riders being dissed in the capital plan? Most of them have known it for years, but its only in the last few months I've seen people actually start to complain about it (2nd Ave Subway). They want all the improvements, but don't want to pay for them - be it higher taxes are rearranging spending priorities. As a result nothing happens. They go on being annoyed, we go on working in hell and every few years the swords get rattled and someone says the magic words - TRANSIT STRIKE. And suddenly, we are the REALLY bad guys. I've had to stop wearing my uniform coat while commuting, just to stop getting attacked by these nuts. Why should I care what happens to them?
I didn't day break the traffic laws. I just said drive to Manhattan and drive around. If enough people do it at about the same time, it will result in a traffic jam, which will inconvenience people with power -- even of no laws are broken.
Not that there is any chance of such a mass protest taking place, but it will also 'inconvenience' police cars, fire trucks and ambulances also. Which means it might be something that a true genius like Willie James would encourage.
(Increase in driving to Manhattan would also hurt emergency vehicles).
That's one of the reasons that a favor reducing Manhattan traffic at the front door -- by tolling all the entrances, and pricing the tolls at a level where the traffic becomes bearable and buses, trucks making deliveries, and emergency vehicles can move.
The current policy its to allow everyone to drive to Manhattan for free, but discourage the practice by not allowing the provision of any more parking. Not a good idea.
[That's one of the reasons that a favor reducing Manhattan traffic at the front door -- by tolling all the entrances, and pricing the tolls at a level where the traffic becomes bearable and buses, trucks making deliveries, and emergency vehicles can move.
The current policy its to allow everyone to drive to Manhattan for free, but discourage the practice by not allowing the provision of any more parking. Not a good idea.]
Wasn't that part of the settlement with the EPA way back when? I agree it's pretty foolish; we should charge tolls and use the money to build better transit. If we allocated the actual aggregate costs, including maintenance of road and track, of providing a ROW in Manhattan to transit and car users according to actual wear and tear and peak usage and added in the cost of mandated provisions for the handicapped, I have a feeling we'd end up with some *very* high vehicle fees. That would discourage traffic as you suggest while at the same time allowing us to turn our transit system into a regional asset. And how long would outlying regions refuse to build an adequate infrastructure for their through traffic--I recall reading that 25% of the traffic in NYC is just passing through--things like the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge (OK, Moses is gone, make it a tunnel) or a highway along the Palisades?
And while we're at it, why can't we have low pollution buses and taxis, with the cost of the technology being paid by the drivers who choose to cause local pollution?
"....things like the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge (OK, Moses is gone, make it a tunnel) or a highway along the Palisades?"
Tunnels have notoriously low capacity, and even with the land acquisition on both sides of the sound would be more expensive.
Heaven forbid they put in a Sound crossing!!!! Could you imagine how bad the LIE would be if all the traffic went from Rye to Oyster Bay and took the LIE instead of the Cross Bronx????
Not worse than the Cross Bronx is now.
Now what traffic would take the LIE with the bridge that otherwise wouldn't take the LIE? The bridge only makes sense for Long Island destinations.
Heaven forbid they put in a Sound crossing!!!! Could you imagine how bad the LIE would be if all the traffic from Connecticut to Joisey went from Rye to Oyster Bay and took the LIE instead of the Cross Bronx????
The lack of a Rye-Oyster Bay bridge leaves an unsolved problem. Those traveling from Long Island to eastern New England have to go all the way west, through the most densely populated city in the U.S., then go east again. How would you solve it?
Any time I go to New England, I take the ferry from Orient to New London.
The saving of wear and tear on me and my family justifies the cost.
You'd be surprised how much truck traffic uses this ferry.
I would run a new ferry service from the LILCO property at Shoreham to Connecticut. The beauty of a ferry is that it would attract Long Island-New England traffic away from the congested city crossings without encouraging long haul southern and western to New England traffic to come through the City and L.I. the way a new bridge would.
The thing about the current ferries is, they are not at the end of high capacity highways. Could you extend an LIE spur to that Shoreham property, so ferry traffic would not have to use local roads? Is there an interstate on the other end? Could you put in enough queue space for two or more competing operators with separate docks?
IIRC, the current road to Shoreham is four lanes and underutilized. The accomodations in Connecticut depends on the location of the terminal, but few possible landing points are far from Interstate 95.
However, I question how "high capacity" the connections to such ferries should be. I think the idea should be to be convenient enough to lure LI and eastern Queens traffic away from the congested city crossings without making it so attractive that new traffic is developed from, say, NJ and South that would then go through the City.
If the traffic is primarily tourist (weekend) traffic then it would take some of the strain off the Cross Bronx and divert it across Staten Island and the Verrazano. If it develops into weekday traffic (trucks) then all it probably does is take traffic off the rails.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
how about ferry from the south shore to the jesery shore
how about ferry from the south shore to the jesery shore
That would be great, but I don't think there's any location on the South Shore that would both provide a protected harbor and allow boats of any size to dock.
Plus, once you get west of Point Lookout (roughly near the west end of Jones Beach) there is no good highway access.
What about the Nassau Expway? It runs from the Belt to just before the Atlantic Beach Bridge.
The Nassau Expressway runs in only 1 direction from the Belt to Rockaway Blvd, where it stops at New York Avenue. It is then plain old Rockaway Blvd/Tpke until you get past Costco where it starts up again. However, it has traffic lights to the Atlantic Beach Bridge and is not a true expressway.
"New York Avenue"
Guy R. Brewer Boulevard
"If it develops into weekday traffic (trucks) then all it probably does is take traffic off the rails."
Perhaps if it's traffic between Long Island and Connecticut, yes, but if it's going to New Jersey, it would have been on trucks anyway. I don't think there's much traffic between L.I. and New England, or is there?
Well, I was actually thinking of truck traffic originating in New Jersey and points south destined for Boston and points north, and vice-versa. A fair amount of that goes by rail up the West Shore to Albany and then east; opening another highway route to Boston (SI-Brooklyn-LI-Connecticut-etc.) runs the risk of siphoning a good chunk of that traffic, particularly if its origin or destination is in New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No problem. Just put tolls on the LIE. Don't you think it would be a great place to experiment with a high-speed EZPass system?
[Tunnels have notoriously low capacity, and even with the land acquisition on both sides of the sound would be more expensive.]
I thought it was 40% cheaper to build a tunnel than a comparable bridge?
Maybe when building in Manhattan.
True, your idea wouldn't bother subway riders in any way, but the last time I checked, there's also something called, umm, the bus system! And also, at least the last time I checked, mail and merchandise get around by truck -- hard to ship mail sacks or crates of meat by subway. Last, but certainly not least, I understand that there are these vehicles called "ambulances" that bring sick and injured people to the hospital.
Want to rethink this one, pal?
[The media is reporting that the TWU is backing off the strike threat. Seems like Willie has figured out that he cares more about the riders than Pataki does, and is floundering around. So what alternatives does the TWU have? I've thought about it, and come up with an alternative that's perfectly legal would bother subway riders in any way, but would bother other people a lot.
As I said, the TWU is a de facto monopoly for travel to Manhattan, because if everyone tried to drive there no one could. How about having Willie say that TA workers are being dissed relative to commuter railroad employees, and TA riders are being dissed in the capital plan, so we might as well exercise our right to drive?
Not in a convoy, not blocking the box, not violating traffic laws (if it can be helped), but just having 10,000 off duty TA workers fill up their tanks and drive into and around Midtown for a few hours on a weekday -- say from 3 p.m. to 10 p.m. If other unions join in, it could be devastating -- Midtown would lock down, and all the suits would be stuck in traffic. Imagine 20,000 teachers finishing school and driving in. I might even join in.
Beats walking over.]
The only way I can think that that would bother Pataki would be if it affected his vice presidential prospects, and I doubt it would--he could just take credit for acting tough.
On the other hand, the union could organize a campaign to educate people on the MTA's anti-City bias. Set up a dummy organization, Employees for Better Transit, say, and run ads. Unfortunately, to be perfectly fair, the union would have to criticize itself--not a particularly good position to be in.
Another possiblity--pay off er I mean make campaign contributions to upstate legislators the way the PBA did.
Why is a newspaper printed in column format??
So a transit rider can FOLD it and not exceed their space into someone elses lap. This is a lost art if you ask me, folding the paper and being able to read it, advancing smoothly down and across the page.
Too many people are reading thier TIMES and WSJ's spread out and into other riders faces. The TA should add that to their advertising campain of things to do in the subway.
(Just got a ride in with a newspaper reader's elbow in side from the spread out paper)
When I was in the upper grades at P.S. 249 we received the Times every day at half price. It was on our desks when we arrived in the morning.
The first thing we were taught was how to fold the paper to keep it compact and how to turn the pages without opening up the paper.
I think if a 5th grader could do it, adults could manage the skill without having to go to too many workshops.
Paul - at PS 186 in Queens we learned the same thing in Mrs. Lipman's 6th grade class.
In addition to the classic newspaper folding technique being more considerate to fellow riders, it is much easier on the reader to flip over and back and forth in a compacted form, rather than trying to manage that unwieldy giant.
We learned in the 6th grade at PS 171. You have to admit that the "classic fold" worked better on the Times than it did on the Daily Mirror. You could do it on the tabloids, but it never seemed to work as neatly.
Its funny but about 10 years ago the Daily Racing Form changed to a tabloid type and its so much more awkward to handicap now while standing up!!!
I once took the previous day's Long Island Press to read on the way to work the next morning. Fellow passengers knew that the Press was an afternoon paper, and two people, who I didn't know, asked me why I was reading the previous day's paper. This was many years ago, and I imagine that today the riding public would not be so curious.
You know, in those days, if you were the last person off the car at Broad St (the last stop), you could gather up quite a bundle of like-new newspapers. Many people would just leave their paper on the train. I wonder if they still do that.
If you stay on most commuter trains to the end of the line either rush hour, but especially the evening, you can make out like a bandit on all the papers commuters leave behind. If it's a long haul, like to Bay Head, people have time to finish the whole thing.
I bet a lot a train crews working such runs NEVER have to buy a paper throughout their careers.
[If you stay on most commuter trains to the end of the line either rush hour, but especially the evening, you can make out like a bandit on all the papers commuters leave behind. If it's a long haul, like to Bay Head, people have time to finish the whole thing.]
I find on the LIRR that the _Post_ is the most common left-behind paper, followed in approximate order by the _Daily News_, the _Wall Street Journal_ and _USA Today_. Not too many people leave the _Times_ behind, for some reason.
Oh, many LIRR riders leave copies of _Newsday_ behind, but that means little to me as I don't have a puppy to train.
The Times has changed quite a bit since I was in the 6th grade - so have the Trib and Tele for that matter.
They essentially killed the folding art when they went from 8 to 6 columns. The old 8 column format was ideal. One could fold the paper to a 2 column width and read down. Also, there were only 2 sections. So the paper would not fly apart when folding.
The other art was to somebody else's properly folded paper upside down. That was I could always read a 2nd paper, after I'd finished my own.
I HATE broadsheet newspapers. I wish the Times would convert to tabloid. It's so much easier to handle.
I HATE broadsheet newspapers. I wish the Times would convert to tabloid. It's so much easier to handle.
Yeah! Every day but Sunday. I could imagine what the Sunday Times would look like in tabloid. It would be deeper than it would be high! Not only that, but on Sunday, nobody would be making a pest of themselves with it on a crowded subway train.
Now what I wish is that newspapers not be as spineless as they are. How hard is it to have staplers on the press line?
Now what I wish is that newspapers not be as spineless as they are. How hard is it to have staplers on the press line?
They keep newspapers barebones to keep the cost and the price down.
It always tickles me to see how Hollywood perceives our subway system.
If they are not using Toronto's, doctored up to look like NY's ( a lot of doctoring here!), they actually use some discarded NY cars, that are, perhaps, on their studio lots. Sometimes the effects can be quite good; other times very amusing. From the time Lucy got a trophy cup stuck on her head and wandered over the subway system to last month's
NBC-TV "EARTHQUAKE" movie (set in NY, using TTC), and now Arnold Swarzenegger's "END OF DAYS" you just have to be amazed and amused!
Last night I saw "END OF DAYS". You should see our old R27/30's & what Hollywood can do. That alone was worth seeing the movie!
I won't say anyting else, so as not to spoil some fun if you wish to see it.But note the car #'s inside as opposed to outside, just for starts.
Joe C.
Its not just transit where Hollywood uses alot of poetic license. Its history too. My favorite example is the movie "The Battle of The Bulge". Almost everybody knows it was fought in the Ardennes Forest yet from seeing the movie you would think the whole battle was fought on a treeless plain!!!
Jeff: The beginning of that movie had snow and trees, but at the end you would have thought you were in Kansas or someplace on the Plains. What a crock that was.
"NBC-TV "EARTHQUAKE"
Sorry, it was CBS.
Also, I don't know what car numbers you're talking about, but it's a minute detail that few care about. It's not a big deal.
Different network, same garbage!
The car #'s were 2800's (R68's of course) on TTC cars. True, no big deal. Just funny to see what H'wood does. To those few that care, that is.
Which is why that "Lucy" episode is so neat..I can't place my hands on the tape right this second,but I DO believe the car mock-up they use has a number in the 5000's -just about right for a Low-V. If you have ever read a book about that show,you know that they really did their homework about things like that...(Nick-at-Nite is running Lucy Marathons all week-they might be running it again...)
5000 s were the last of the Lo Volts on the IRT
In the Lucy episode, the interior scenes were done on a mockup which appears to be a cross between a Lo-V and BMT standard. The door arrangement bears a strong resemblance to that on the BMT standards right down to the wide post between the center doors. The route and destination sign arrangement is consistent with what was used on the Lo-Vs, and is correct for a Lexington Ave. express. Even the sequence of stations is correct: Bleecker, Spring, Canal. But here's where they goofed: those are all local stops!
Too bad they didn't have any R-10 stock footage. Oh well, the R-1/9 shots on the AA will suffice. What about the R-12 shot being printed backwards? Oops!
Glad you caught that R12 scene!! That was quite a guffaw in iteslf for a very funny episode.
Now, if you ever get to see Superman, the George Reeves shows of the '50's, there's an episode where he has to stop the Valley Express.
Of course, it is a train of R-1-9's. Good footage,too, as the train accelerates from the station, then "pops" as the motorman cuts power. All this from track level, yet!
Joe C
12/08/99
Speaking of R1-9's , there was a movie I haven't seen in years called "Pay or die". It starred Ernest Borgnine and was about Ernest as a police detective investigating and exposing the "Black Hand" (now called Mafia). One memorable scene shows Ernest waiting on a subway platform (hollywood set) with a platform of people in period turn of the century dress , (1904 IRT ?).
Suddenly a mobster who followed him to the platform pushes him in front of an oncoming train , an R1-9 type (in 1904!). What was funny was the next scene showed Ernest on the tracks and jumping out of the way and embracing a steel column. The train speeds like an express but doesn't stop! I guess the mobster didn't want Ernest to live so he can star in McHales Navy !!
Has anybody seen this black & white flick ?
Bill Newkirk
I did see that,too, just forgot the name.
A movie called "13 Women" (I think...I need to check my collection),
shows a scene in a 1930's subway station. A woman gives the evil eye to her boss, who is a psychic. She entices him to jump in front of the on-coming train, which is a train of BMT Standards, barelling into the station. We see the train, motorman & all, quite clearly. And the way they showed the man fall in front was very good, for those days! Watch for that one. A PBS classic.
Joe C.
>> Suddenly a mobster who followed him to the platform pushes him in front of an oncoming train , an R1-9 type (in 1904!). What was funny was the next scene showed Ernest on the tracks and jumping out of the way and embracing a steel column. The train speeds like an express but doesn't stop! >>
Wasn't that scene filmed at the now temporarily-closed Canal Street station, southbound side, at the point where there's a railing along the platform edge opposite an exit stairway ?
Also, the movie "The Mad Doctor" (Basil Rathbone) has a scene where a man is pushed in front of an (apparently) Low-V train. (Doesn't seem to have been released on video.)
These are great posts! Let's keep 'em comin, subway AND bus scenes, particularly NY City.
Joe C
How about that same GMC bus that keeps on circling in "Guys and Doll"? By the way, whenever a movie thread starts, someone always says "Here we go again" or "We're rehashing old stuff" or "check the movie section on this site" but I always enjoy it over and over again. And someone always brings up something new.
If any of you have teenage daughters ask them to let you know when a music video by a group called Savage Garden is being played. It appears to be shot inside an actual subway car but I lack the skills many of you have to pick up identifying details. I did note the route sign had three tiers, and the bottom said "South Berry." There is also one of those pre-1979 maps where each letter or number had its own color. Improbably, the map is at the end of the car! The station scenes are quite phony looking, and do not integrate the car.
Why should anyone be surprised? Hollywood types ride in Limos. Riding on a subway in New York would be beneath them, the rotten elitists. That is why Hollywood screws up time after time on the screen. I've gotten used to it. It will happen again and again until they get someone like a member of this group who can set them straight. But don't hold your breath for that to happen.
to me it looked like the toronto subway system cars included!!
why did it take so long to derail all of the subway cars ??
also wht didnt the power just go out and the train stop ???
and what about te elevated parts of the system like the 5 7 2
the A to rockways etc???
an earthquake in new york maybe would happen in 5 AM LIKE IT DOES IN LA AND MEXICO !!!
Salaam,
True about the time. I don't know where you live, but NYC did have a quake in 1985. It was felt in the North Bronx & lower Westchester. It did happen about 5a.m.too.
Joe C
What magnitude was it on the Richter Scale? I don't ever remember hearing anything about it.
Just enough to rattle the houses in the neighborhood and knock down pictures on the wall. I have the Daily News article around somewhere.
Interestingly enough, the fault in question runs down White Plains road. Maybe there will be a subway on that stretch someday without the TA really trying.
Joe C
I just recently photographed -- up close -- a quartet of R30's that are on a Warner Brothers lot in Glendale, California. One of the cars has "8401" on the exterior, while the numbe decals on the inside of the motorman's cab door appear to be either "8297" or "8397" (the second digit is partically gone).
Also there is 8275, and two cars so heavily graffitied that number identification was impossible.
My vote for the best NYC subway movie is still the 1970's film version of 'The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3'. Good story, solid acting, and generally convincing cinematography in the subway. The only major gaffe is early in the movie, when the rookie conductor tries to impress his instructor by claiming that IRT cars are 72 feet long! A little bit dated in its costumes and the hijacker's ransom demand of only $1 million (what would they ask for today - $100 million?), but still a lot of fun.
Maybe the worst NYC subway movie was the TV version of 'Pelham 1-2-3' made a couple of years ago. Set in New York but filmed in Toronto, and totally unconvincing. What was the point of even making this movie? They should have just re-run the original film - probably would have gotten higher ratings.
- Jim
I was in class at Pace University on Park Row when they were filming the great police car scene past there. (When they were transporting the money) They did at least 10 takes (probably more) taking the whole day and we were watching out of the classroom windows!! And to think 8 yrs later I joined the NYPD and was driving those cars lights & sirens!!!
You drove those old things? What were they, Plymouths or Dodges. Early
blue & white paint scheme. Personally, I'd take a late Chevy Caprice!
Joe C
The cop cars in the original Pelham appear to be 1973 Plymouth Furies, which were popular with police forces. Our cops in Cheshire, CT had them. They had the 440 V-8 with a police package, IIRC. Those cars from the early 70s seem huge today, even the ones touted as midsize and compact back then.
The remake of Pelham was waste of time and effort, not to mention money. I would definitely classify it as "not recommended".
Being a Mopar fan as well as a railfan, I've some background with Chrylser products. During the gas crunch of the mid-70's alot of the Plymouth Furys of the NYPD -- at least in the outer-borough Precincts -- were outfitted with small block 318's and in some cases even had the venerable slant-six engine (225).
Doug aka BMTman
A Fury with a slant six? I would hope they beefed up that engine; otherwise, you'd have an R-68-like cop car.
Some police departments went so far as to rebuild some of those 440s in later years.
I owned a '74 Fury Gran Sedan (4-door hardtop) with the interceptor package - ex-unmarked police car. 440 V-8, 8 mpg with a tail wind, but I loved it. $400 at the auction in '79 with only 60,000 miles on it (the odometer had NOT rolled, it was honest mileage). I drove it for about a year (and another 25,000 miles) and sold it for $750.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last time I saw the Taking of Pelham 123 was in 1998 on the Cantoneese station in Hong Kong, with English and Chineese Sub Titles, (Of coursed dubbed in Cantoneese) It was great. The next day was French Connection I I wondered if they were doing a Memorial to NYC Cops and Subways
We've gone through this before, but for the feel of the NYC subway, I think "The Incident" (1968) is the best, even if the idea of Ed McMahon being terrorized on an IRT 1939 World's Fair car always strikes me as a little funny.
Was the terrorist on the train Martin Sheen? If so, that was a good movie, acting & all. Love those 1939 cars, shot, of course, on the Bronx 3rd Ave El.
Joe C
Yes, Martin Sheen was one of the thugs, along with Tony Musante. Beau Bridges ended up beating both of them up by the time they got to Grand Central.
Would you believe that all the interior scenes were shot in a studio mockup? It was very meticulously built.
It did seem odd to see Ed McMahon in it. You almost expect Johnny Carson to board the train and start cracking one-liners after being introduced with Ed's patented "Heeee-eeere's Johnny!"
That remake was a bomb, acting included.
It is always fun to point out the buses in the background, taxis, etc,
in various movies, but that is all I'll say about that garbage.
The whole production crew should be ashamed, actors included.
Joe C
Does anyone know the seating capacity of the M-1, M-1A, AND M-2 cars currently in operation?
Since theses car have reached the end of useful life with the LIRR,they could be rebuilt and used in service over there . WITH the higher speeds and I must say better looking cars than the r44 ,servicewould improve and people would want to ride.Soft seats ,restroom,more comfortable ride copared to hard seats no restrooms and very bumpy ride .Which would you want.
ANYTHING but an M-1! Many of them are in terrible shape, getting to be almost as bad as the 1955 MP-75 coaches. I hear the R44's on the SI line are holding their own pretty well except for some leaks.
They DID use a few MP-72s from the LIRR (the ZIP's) back in the 1970's on Staten Island, just before the R44s came on - to replace the "E" types that were being phased out.
Wayne
The 1955 cars would be great if they kept the old comfortable & reversible seats and if they cleaned the windows every once in a while!!!
The 1955 LIRR cars would be great if they kept the old comfortable & reversible seats and if they cleaned the windows every once in a while!!!
A few leaks? The cars came back from an in-house rebuild with cracked walls, broken seats, and peeling interior paint! And they STILL look like crap inside.
-Hank
Actually, those weren't Zips. I've seen the photos - Zips didn't have round windows, they looked a LOT like ACMUs actually. I think those were the '75s.
The M-1s are effectively falling apart right now. From what I've heard, they've never been seriously rebuilt, and I've seen a few with steel plates (==holes) in the floor. I've noticed now that the M-7s are "comming in 2003", the M-1s seem to be falling apart, on cue, as did the '54s in the late 60's, and the diesel fleet did over the last few years.
Rumor mill:
Speaking of which, I've heard the DMs have been as flakey as the DEs, and Kawasaki's busy moding the C-3 fleet now. I've also heard #406 (?) is being robbed for parts, and 500/501 derailed while being moved the other week - anyone got any info on this?
12/04/99
M-1"s ON STATEN ISLAND RAILWAY !! hah!
"Can I have a M.A. reset please!
Bill Newkirk
12/04/99
Wayne,
The "Zip" cars were the MP-75's. The low roof MU's similar to Metro North's 1100's.
The original S.I.R.T. mu's were never called the E-types , but were classified as MUE-1's. This info from a friend of mine who is a superitendent of the line.
Bill Newkirk
I called them the "E" types (for lack of a better name - not really knowing what they were called) because the ones that were transferred to the BMT were called that.
I rode some of them back in 1972. They were AWFUL. They may have been handsome when new, but the one I rode never got any faster than maybe 20MPH and shook, rattled, hissed, creaked, groaned and clanked all the way from St.George to Tottenville.
Wayne
I rode some of them back in 1972. They were AWFUL. They may have been handsome when new, but the one I rode never got any faster than maybe 20MPH and shook, rattled, hissed, creaked, groaned and clanked all the way from St.George to Tottenville.
Yeah! Ain't it great! I used to love those cars. I used to call them the Staten Island A/B's. They were kind of a hybrid between an A/B and a BU. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR---SSSSSSSSS!
12/04/99
Wayne,
Shook,rattled,hissed,creaked,groaned and clanked.
That's called deferred maintenance !
Bill Newkirk
Oh, it was terrible! Seats were missing, windows were cracked, light bulbs were missing, the whole train seemed like it was shaking itself to death. The next year, 1973, found R44 cars out there. MUCH better.
Wayne
Wow, you mean they were almost as bad as the LIRR's fleet is???
*runs and ducks*
12/05/99
Don't laugh! THe same thing happened on the TA when a shortage of equipment brought back from the Coney Island scrap track some B-types. They actually went into service with light bulbs and seat cushions missing. How many cushions and bulbs missing was anybody's guess. This from a well trusted source I know.
Bill Newkirk
The original SIRT MU's were actually very comfortable cars to ride in. The thing to remember is that they were built much more to a suburban railway loading factor then the BRT/BMT Standards. The Standards had to combine in-city heavy rapid transit with large tracts of semi-suburban stretches in Brooklyn. The SIRT ME-1's (or MU-1E's) ran in a more leisurely setting and although there were busy stations along the line the only one that approximated the very heavy rush hour traffic of the NYCTA was of course St. George. They could seat 71 passengers in a combination of cross and longitudinal seating and the cross seats were reversible. One hundred cars were built;90 motors and 10 trailers. After the Tottenville Fire in 1927 five trailers were converted to motors. Fire has always been the bane of the Staten Island Rapid. A second fire at Saint George in 1946 destoyed eight cars, this combined with the five cars lost in the Tottenville Fire and two cars lost in a derailment left the SIRT with 85 cars.After the North Shore and South Beach Lines were abandoned in 1953 the 25 motor cars and the last 5 trailers were sent across the ocean to Brooklyn. This left SIRT with a total of 55 cars to cover the Tottenville Line. Again the SIRT's old nemisis stepped in and destroyed 7 cars in the Clifton Fire in 1962. The remaining number of cars,48 was perilously close to the full service requirement and left little room for spares. The fact that the fleet kept running as long as it did was due to the hard work of the crew at the Clifton Shops.
ME-1 388 is now at Branford and sits just down the tracks from BMT 2775. What stories these two old warriors must tell each other after the volunteers go home.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Best Wishes for Hanukkah to all sub-talkers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I second that motion.
Happy Hanukkah and Happy Holidays to all(this'll just get worse. Give it two weeks:):)
Next we need the Subtalk Holiday Party.
I second the motion! Happy Hanukkah to all our Sub-Talkers. I'm lighting the first candle as we speak!
Chuck Greene
Also to our Islamic Friends out Happy Ramadam, and do nt eat too much at night. Happy Chunakah from Hawaii
Happy Hanukkah from Syracuse, Home of Temple Society of Concord.
The same goes for me---Happy Hanukkah to all my Jewish friends on this website.
12/04/99
To all those who celebrate:
HAPPY HANUKKAH !!....have a joyious holiday.
Bill Newkirk
Happy Hanukkah from Philadelphia.
CLICK HERE
Yes. Happy Hanukkah to all.
Happy Hanukkah to everyone at SubTalk.
same from faxman in new jersey
Hanukah Sameah! (Happy Hanukah)
...from the Old City of Jerusalem.
May we merit to light the menorah (original candelabra) in the rebuilt 3rd Temple.
Hanukah Sameah! (Happy Hanukah)
...from the Old City of Jerusalem.
May we merit to light the menorah (original candelabra) in the rebuilt 3rd Temple.
As long as Muslims control the Temple Mount, that will not be possible. Also, a perfect, blemishless Red Heifer has not been bred yet; and, the question of where the Temple should be has still not been solved. Some say it is where the Dome of the Rock is, some say it is not. Nevertheless, I don't see the Third Temple being built in our lifetimes.
"Also, a perfect, blemishless Red Heifer has not been bred yet"
Have any Jewish Geneticists taken up that task?
"Also, a perfect, blemishless Red Heifer has not been bred yet"
Have any Jewish Geneticists taken up that task?
They have been trying for a good many years. Haven't you ever heard of "Melanie"? She is a Red Heifer who was thought to be blemishless, until they found a few white hairs on her.
Nevertheless, it is most important, especially on Hanukah, to raise consciousness about the Temple and the ultimate light that it will bring to the world: connection to Godly values, unity, peace and a striving for pure and good purpose in life.
I have to add -- yesterday I attended a wonderful unveiling by the Temple Institute of a perfectly constructed menorah (seven branched candelabra) meeting all of the requirements. It is being displayed in the "Cardo" of the Old City. It contains 43 kg of pure gold (for those who care $650,000 worth) and is a truly beautiful and inspiring reminder that what was once will be again, God willing.
Oops, forgot to post the other part of my message:
"Some say it is where the Dome of the Rock is, some say it is not. Nevertheless, I don't see the Third Temple being built in our lifetimes."
If that's the case, wherever it is built, an avenue should be built above it and it should be between First and Third Avenues.
If that's the case, wherever it is built, an avenue should be built above it and it should be between First and Third Avenues.
Yeah! Right?! The Third Temple in Jerusalem will be built long before the Second Avenue Subway in New York!
Happy Hanukkah!
Enjoy!
(I noticed it came early this year)
Doug aka BMTman
"(I noticed it came early this year)"
No, it didn't, it came on the 25th Of Kislev, as always.
Yes, it did. That's the old adage for the Jewish holidays: They always come either too early or too late.
We New Yorkers received a great Hanukkah present this year: a weekend of warm, mild weather perfect for train riding.
Happy holidays to all!
Yes indeed - Happy Chanukah to everyone! As I sit here I can see the lights of one of our two electric menorahs in the window, and the final flickering of the more traditional ones we lit this evening.
CLICK HERE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not the Jewish Holiday that are early or late, it is everything else.
Where do the funcky slant R40's roam these days? On what lines?
Normally they run on the: L,N, and Q. For the Williamsburg Bridge Reconstruction they ran on the M Shuttle. Rarely you can see them on the B Line on weekends. Also, when the Concourse Yard R68s were being linked they had 1 Slant on the D Line for the weekend.
To expand a bit on what R68A-5200 has stated, there are two squads of Slant R40 - one runs out of Coney Island (Southern Division) and the other runs out of Eastern Division.
The Coney Island group consists of units #4150-4395 and is mostly on the "Q" line, with some showing up on the "N". On the weekend, two consists run on the "B". The "Q" line is almost 100% Slant R40.
The Eastern Division group consists of units #4396-4449 and runs chiefly on the "L". There may be a few still on the "M" shuttle; this was the case when the Williamsburg Bridge closure service diversions were in effect.
Units out of service are #4200-4201, #4259, #4260, #4420-4421, #4427 and #4428; 292 units (146 pairs) are still in service.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
If you operate a R110B which car marker do you stop? The 10 or 8 car marker.
I think it's the 8 car mark. The train is either 8 or 9 67' cars. 10 makes 670, too long for most platforms so 9 gets you 603' and 8 gives you 536'.
Which is it?
Since only 6 cars are operable, the train is operating on the 'C' line. 6 x 67'= 402' or the equivalent of a 7 car R-32. I think they still use the 8 car marker.
I guess there will have to be new conductors indication boards set up in all stations if there are 9 cars and 3 car units. Probably 6 north and 3 south or reversed.
There are special R110B "blue" conductor indicator boards on every stop of both the A and D lines.
Those boards were put up when the 110B was 9 cars. Of course we all know that is not the case today. Therefore, those boards would have little relevance and would possibly need to be repositioned.
I have a question in regards to using metro-card. I have bought a metro card twice when in NYC when using the subway. This may sound like a crazy question but you are able to transfer free from subway to bus or bus to subway. I am POLISH so help me here how would say a bus operator know if you were transfering from the subway to a bus free. Just how does this setup work? I have only used the card on the subway and never did any transfering. Could somebody help me out on this? Thanks very much.
The Bus driver would not know. The farebox would. The transfer is encoded on the MetroCard when you swipe it thru the turnstile.
The farebox will display: "1 Xfer OK" so the driver will know that it was a transfer but only the farebox will know that it was subway-to-bus.
Ron, people don't make Polish jokes anymore.
Latest guesstimate for Hoboken service is 16 to 20 months after the March 1, 2000 startup, or from July 1, 2001 to November 1, 2001. Figure two years from now, or the end of 2001, to be safe. Canal Slip, immediately south of the Erie-Lackawanna Terminal, must be bridged or filled in.
For those of you who like to tour the Left Bank, they will be running LRVs as far north as Exchange Place this weekend. Essex St residents may park on the tracks to protest these Saturday and Sunday tests, although operations these days will be a regular event come spring.
"For those of you who like to tour the Left Bank"
Actually, New Jersey is the Right Bank.
Politically?
No, Physically
I stopped in the TM Store in GCT yesterday and found they have a supply of Subway Car models. They are made by RailKing (MTH Electric Trains) and are MTA licensed. They are in O-27 Scale and are supposed to look like R-42 cars (all silver) although the fronts are not as rounded as the real ones. The route designation on the front is E and the side destination sign reads: E Jamaica Center - Parsons
World Trade Center. The sides also contain the MTA logo
(w/o the words New York City Subway).
There is some interior detail (seats etc) and there are
lights in the ceiling so when the car is electrified it is lit.
The undercarriage is also detailed.
The cars are available in two configurations:
2 Car Set Non-Powered $99.95 plus $8.25 S/T = $108.20
4 Car Set - Powered $395.95 plus $32.67 S/T = $428.62
IMPORTANT NOTE: Because the sets are limited there are NO DISCOUNTS
given on these items.
Funny. At the Transit Museum (Brooklyn) they said they would be getting the MTH sets in time for Christmas, but I have yet to see them being offered.
Interesting that the Grand Central store has the 2-car unpowered sets for $99 when they are 10-15 dollars cheaper at model railroad shops. I guess the Transit Museum didn't get the sets from MTH at a discount, so they have to charge as they do.
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen photos of these models on E-Bay. I'm not too impressed. The accuracy level is lacking. I've seen some really nice looking model subway cars on the web. Check out <"http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/layouts.html">http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/layouts.html
why didnt they repoduce an old R-1
R-9 OR AN OLD IRT 12 or low volt.?
or an old multisection ??
or the redbird irts??
Corgi Toys (famous for those 60's and 70's excellent die-cast cars) was supposed to do an antique subway car -- either an R-1 or R-10 car -- in colloboration with the Transit Museum. This was around the time they came out with the nice series of fishbowl GMC buses in O gauge.
Anyhow, it seems the museum didn't show enough interest and the thing just died. However, Corgi was still interested in doing some kind of rapid transit car, so they went ahead on their own and released a series of PCC cars capable of running on 0-27 (Lionel) track.
Doug aka BMTman
A toy train manufacturer like MTH is hard-pressed to create an accurate model of a sixty-foot subway car because of the length restrictions they must deal with regarding going around curves.
I have a feeling that if they had chosen a fifty-foot car to model, like the R-17, it would have been a knockout. The R-42 was probably chosen because it is in current service, and their sales people felt they could sell more of them than an obsolete car like the R-17 which most people have forgotten about.
why didnt the repoduce a REDBURD R 32 or the cars on the FLUSHING LINE
?????????????????????????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"why didnt the repoduce a REDBURD R 32 or the cars on the FLUSHING LINE"
An R-32 is not a Redbird (that's with an I), the cars on the Flushing Line are.
I've seen photos of these models on E-Bay. I'm not too impressed. The accuracy level is lacking. I've seen some really nice looking model subway cars on the web. Check out http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/layouts.html
Yes those are great models, but aren't they all scratch-built by people who have built up their skills over many years?
Yes those are great models, but aren't they all scratch-built by people who have built up their skills over many years?
Yes. Why can't people with skills like that build the prototypes for the commercially built models? Those MTH R-42's don't hold a candle to Pasquale J. Villani's models. I've built several subway cars of my own, and quite good ones, at that; but even my stuff can't be compared to Villani's stuff.
Thanks for the compliments! Actually, it is mostly my models that are shown in the "Layouts" section of Mr. Villani's web site. Although the El structure is entirely scratchbuilt, the subway car models are commercial! Some are very limited run brass models that I painted and detailed, others are limited run epoxy castings that have been built up into finished models. The R-21/22 cars are made from Images Replicas injection molded styrene kits that have been painted and finished with additional details. Other modelers have contributed their talents also, notably Paul Kupersmith who custom cast the fantastic NYCTA style signals. Please check Mr. Villani's web site as he has quite a few resources for the modeler including links to manufacturers making NYCTA models. By the way, the El structure (which is NOT a commercial model) is over 16 feet long and contains over 30,000 individual pieces of basswood and cardstock! If you like these models, stay tuned for details, as it is planned to display the El at a train show in the greater NYC area next summer.
Thanks for the compliments! Actually, it is mostly my models that are shown in the "Layouts" section of Mr. Villani's web site. Although the El structure is entirely scratchbuilt, the subway car models are commercial! Some are very limited run brass models that I painted and detailed, others are limited run epoxy castings that have been built up into finished models. The R-21/22 cars are made from Images Replicas injection molded styrene kits that have been painted and finished with additional details. Other modelers have contributed their talents also, notably Paul Kupersmith who custom cast the fantastic NYCTA style signals. Please check Mr. Villani's web site as he has quite a few resources for the modeler including links to manufacturers making NYCTA models. By the way, the El structure (which is NOT a commercial model) is over 16 feet long and contains over 30,000 individual pieces of basswood and cardstock! If you like these models, stay tuned for details, as it is planned to display the El at a train show in the greater NYC area next summer.
Frank-
Yours is the most impressive rapid transit layout that I've seen. I was into scratchbuilding rapid transit equipment from 1969-1975. I, at one time also had a 3-foot el, but nothing like yours. BTW, are the MUDC's that you have scratchbuilt or commercial? What about all the other stuff, like the R-10? A/B's, R-15's, R-17's R-22's and the like, I've seen commercially available, but not MUDC's and R-10's.
True, it's not as accurate as can be, but considering no other companies out there are making subway models commercially available, sometimes we should just be thankful something was made at all.
I congratulate MTH on such a bold move. Hopefully in the future they will release more New York subway equipment. (And perhaps the next series of models may have more detailing for the die-hard subway buff).
And BTW, what could we expect for affordable subway models in 0 gauge (2 unpowered cars go for approx. $85)?
Doug aka BMTman
And BTW, what could we expect for affordable subway models in 0 gauge (2 unpowered cars go for approx. $85)?
There's a 2-car unpowered set on E-Bay right now with a current bid of $64.99. That auction closes in 5 hours from now.
Since the MTH subway car sets had to be ordered at hobby shops in advance (i.e. they were a special limited run of the sets) I expect the 0 gauge R-42's -- both powered and unpowered -- to appreciate in value over the next few years (unless MTH re-issues them due to the demand).
I wonder who is selling off a set already?
Doug aka BMTman
Since the MTH subway car sets had to be ordered at hobby shops in advance (i.e. they were a special limited run of the sets) I expect the 0 gauge R-42's -- both powered and unpowered -- to appreciate in value over the next few years (unless MTH re-issues them due to the demand).
I wonder who is selling off a set already?
Doug aka BMTman
Go to EBAY. Type "mth", "subway" in the search, just as I have it here with the quotes and comma. I've seen up to 6 MTH sets at one time. Right now, there are 3. An unpowered 2-car set and 2 powered 4-car sets are available. To make it easy, just follow this link http://search.ebay.com/cgi-bin/texis/ebay/results.html?query=%22mth%22%2C+%22subway%22&ht=1&maxRecordsReturned=300&maxRecordsPerPage=50&SortProperty=MetaEndSort
why didnt they make the r-1-r-9 series
or the old low voltage irt??
irt 12 or 33-36 REDBIRDS ???
WHAT DO YOU THINK ???
why didnt they make the r-1-r-9 series
or the old low voltage irt??
irt 12 or 33-36 REDBIRDS ???
WHAT DO YOU THINK ???
Some people build their own. I did that 25-30 years ago. Unfortunately, my eyes aren't what they used to be (probably due to model building) and my hands aren't as dexterous as they used to be, so my model building days are over. Out of cardboard, I built an IRT Lo-V, a 1938 World's Fair car, a deck roof Hi-V, an R-15, a 3-section BMT Triplex and a BMT BU gate car. That's what I still have. Back in the mid 1970's, I built and sold a Lo-V, a 1938 World's Fair car and an IRT gate car. I wish I never would have sold those 3 cars. There are others that build subway cars out of resin from molds. See Modeling the New York Subway. this guy does excellent work!
Hey Paul said in one of his postings that he built a whole R1-9 motorman's cab in his house!!!
Thank you Sarge, for giving me an opportunity to
talk about my favorite topic-- myself. Back in 70's
or whenever they were scrapping the R9's in Coney
Island Yard, I was working for Brighton Laundry
which was right by the yards. I acquired, by legal
means, almost all the components of the R9 cab.
Controller, brake stand, windshield, side window,
door, fold up seat, main switch box, side box,
windshield wiper, conductor door controls, plate the
conductor stood on, folding protective gate, marker
lights, express sign. etc.... At the time, United
Housewreckers in Stamford Conn, had purchased an R9
car which sat in their yard. I went up there with a
ruler and with geometric logic I measured out the
cab. Then I bought 3 sheets of 4'x8' 5/8" Nova Ply
and cut out holes for the doors, windows, etc. This
took a while to do, since I was afraid of making
mistakes so I did nothing for a while to prevent
that from happening. Anyway, eventually I put all
the parts I had together, and it currently sits in
one of the bedrooms in my apartment. Judging from
the level of many of my posts here in SubTalk, you
might think that I spend most of my waking fantasy
life in there, but I don't. Building it is probably
one of the more unique things I have done with my
life.
One of the people who posts here came over with his young
daughter and saw it. ( To protect his reputation I
won't say who ---- also to protect myself since
neither of them have been seen since. ) Actually
his daughter had a lot of fun playing around in it.
If anyone would like to see the motorman's cab, drop
me an e-mail and I'd be happy to have you over. If
you do e-mail me, be sure to mention that you saw
this offer on SubTalk and mention the special
promotion offer number 6 7/8.
Thats ok Paul. By the way, the pullman green paint had me fooled. I thought it WAS original, especially for the room's lighting. BTW, I had to explain to my daughter why the trains of today don't make that growling noise heard on the tape. Guess they don't make 'em like they used to.
Is there any chance of you posting some pictures of your homebuilt "cab" for those of us who have no chance of ever seeing it in person?
Is there any chance of you posting some pictures of your homebuilt "cab" for those of us who have no chance of ever seeing it in person?
Yes! Please do!
Okay, there's two people who asked for it. I need some help with this. I'm using WebTv and I don't have a scanner. I took some pictures of the cab this morning and I will have them developed by Monday. Can you suggest some ways I can get the pictures either up on a web-page that I have on WebTv or on some other site. I don't know if David would want them on this site. Any help with be appreciated. paul
12/04/99
C'mon heypaul ,fess up , where did you ditch the R-9 trucks?
Bill Newkirk
C'mon heypaul ,fess up , where did you ditch the R-9 trucks?
In Coney Island Creek. That's why the Creek is no longer navigable!
Okay, there's two people who asked for it. I need some help with this. I'm using WebTv and I don't have a scanner. I took some pictures of the cab this morning and I will have them developed by Monday. Can you suggest some ways I can get the pictures either up on a web-page that I have on WebTv or on some other site. I don't know if David would want them on this site. Any help with be appreciated. paul
I would love to see pictures of your R-9 cab.
I think Chris R and / or Jeff Rosen know how to put photos on WebTv. I know nothing about how to do this. The only way I'd be able to help you is to put the pix on a web site once they're digitized. Maybe someone you know with a computer and scanner can help you scan the photos and save them as jpegs. E-mail me the jpegs and I'll get them on a site for you, and give you and everyone else the URL. There are so many places you can publish and maintain a free web site these days. Xoom, Angelfire, Geocities, MSN, AOL (and you don't even need an internet account to publish a site on MSN or AOL, either).
You can go to Walgreens on Avenue U and East 58th Street, near Pergament, their photoshop will let you develop your photos onto the internet, you can log in (they give you a number when you get your prints) download your photos, and display them. I think you can use one of the transload sites, but I'm not sure. You can always give the number to me and I can download them for you and post them at metrocard.cjb.net.
Eugenius--- you're a genius. I all ready took the roll I shot in. The process you're explaining will work with 35 mm film, right ?? Then they post it on the internet, and I can download it to my Cracker Jacks prize WebTV. That sounds great. Is it expensive, or about the same price as a developing a regular roll of film? paul
Visit http://kodak.photonet.com for more information. I think you can bring already developed negatives too.
Here, here. That makes three of us.
Now all you need is the rest of the train. (could 8 cars fit in your apartment?) Then the next project could be a Mack bus!
12/04/99
Hey Jeff , give heypaul a chance! First he needs to ask building managment about running 600VDC up to his apartment!
Bill Newkirk
No big deal, just get a transformer and a rectifier, then plug it in to it's own outlet.
Not to mention putting down track, signals, the whole works.
heypaul,
ever thought about rigging your R-9 motorman's cab controls so you can them to perform household tasks like having the controller as a dimmer switch for room lighting or the brake handle to adjust the heat from the apartment radiator? Just some thoughts on the practical home use of the equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
Always a comedian, hey Doug. What people have suggested and would be a blast, would be to synchronize the R 1/9 braking sounds with application of the brake handle. If I ever did that I probably would never leave the house. Actually that probably would be quite doable, since the brake stand has a whole bunch of contacts inside that could be used to trigger tchhh-ssss when the brakes were released. tchhhh-ssss --- I got to run and go torment a couple of high school kids with their algebra and geometry.
Of course, synchronizing the controller to one of your tapes would be a piece of cake. Not to mention the trigger box.
I have to get a subwoofer one of these days...
Steve---- I don't see how synchronizing the controller to the tape would be a piece of cake. Do you mean synching it like a singer lip synchs to a recording of the song? Cause I mean getting the sounds to correspond to the action of the brake handle. Not just syching it to a recorded application of the brakes, but getting it to respond to my application. I can see where the trigger box could be done easier, since the door opening seems to be an all or nothing application. I was thinking that putting the sounds on a CD and using he controller to select a track might be more responsive--- but that's academic because currently I don't have a CD player. WebTV is the most advanced bit of technology I have going for me right now, with the exception of the 1954 Kelvinator refrigerator which is still chugging away. Speaking of which, that has a compressor, and I probably could put in a relay or something, that when the compressor kicks off I can get the tchhh-ssss and maybe when it's running I could get the nice chugging of the R9's compressors. What dreams!!
I hope to get the pictures back tonight, and as soon as I figure out how to hold them in front of the TV screen so as to load them on my WebTv webpage, I'll will get documentation of my accomplishment up so that all assembled can tell me what I did wrong.
heypaul,
ever thought about rigging your R-9 motorman's cab controls so you can them to perform household tasks like having the controller as a dimmer switch for room lighting or the brake handle to adjust the heat from the apartment radiator? Just some thoughts on the practical home use of the equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
I like it!
Even better, have the controller hooked up to an AC power switch. Plug the PC into that. Configure the computer to play a wav file of an AMUE train running. When you pull back the controller, the computer boots and makes the rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr sound of an AMUE train, instead of the Windows 98 startup sound. Take your pick of an AMUE train: Lo-V, D-Type, A/B, etc.
How about all of the above plus DEMAND that Mike's Train House produce R9 cars that you can control with your cab equipment.
If you lived in Japan, all your prayers would be answered! KATO makes a controller for model railroads that mimics the operation of a typical mascon/brake handle controller for an electric commuter train. It works just like the real thing. It is compatible with N and HO scale equipment, but would not run O gauge trains. The only drawback is it's availability and price. It IS NOT available in the states, and it costs upwards of US$800. The Japanses also have a neat train simulation game for the Sony Playstation calle "Densha de GO!" (Let's go by Train!). This video game gives you the perspective of the train operator. You must operate the train over a pre-programmed route (actual train lines in Japan including an elevated line - Osaka Kanjyo Sen) and make all the scehduled stops without braking hard or overshooting the platform. A special controller that incorporates the mascon/brake handle is also available. It too is not availble in the states through normal distribution, but you CAN get it from video game importers. You will also need to buy a Japanese Playstation or have a domestic one "chipped" so that it can play import games. Check out the internet (search under "Densha de GO!") for sources and details of this game.
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
The gates were made of cut pieces of window screen (I did this in the days when window screen was made of aluminum, not plastic), and marker lights were made of cut pieces of matchsticks.
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
The gates were made of cut pieces of window screen (I did this in the days when window screen was made of aluminum, not plastic), and marker lights were made of cut pieces of matchsticks.
You built a BMT BU gate car out of cardboard!
How did you ever reproduce things like the gates, marker lights etc?
The gates were made of cut pieces of window screen (I did this in the days when window screen was made of aluminum, not plastic), and marker lights were made of cut pieces of matchsticks.
I forgot to mention, its made in H-O scale. I built this one in 1975.
Thanks so much for posting the pictures of your model of the open platform gate car. It looks just fine to me, and you know how much I think of the gate cars.
I am sort of curious as to how you decided on the 1200 number that you put on it because 1234 is the number of one of the cars that were rebuilt into "Q" cars.
You did such a good job on that one that you should consider building two more to create a three car gate train. I bet it would look real sharp. I know it was many years ago, but do you remember how many hours you put into that construction job?
Thanks so much for posting the pictures of your model of the open platform gate car. It looks just fine to me, and you know how much I think of the gate cars.
I am sort of curious as to how you decided on the 1200 number that you put on it because 1234 is the number of one of the cars that were rebuilt into "Q" cars.
You did such a good job on that one that you should consider building two more to create a three car gate train. I bet it would look real sharp. I know it was many years ago, but do you remember how many hours you put into that construction job?
Thank you for your appreciation of my work. I used 1234 out of convenience. I had the number decals numbered 0123456789, so I just cut out 1234 and put it on the car. Besides, the 1200 series was used on the BU's. I have a photo of a BU that was of the same type as the one I modeled, and its number was 1257.
I don't think I could ever build any more subway cars. I was a teenager back then (21 in 1975 when I built the BU). I am in my 40's now. My eyes aren't what they used to be (probably due to the strain of model building), and my hands aren't as dexterous as they used to be. As for how many hours I put into the construction, each car took between 30 and 60 days. I used to put many hours a day into it and did most of my work during the summer or during Christmas and Easter recess (no school). I worked from H-O scale plans. When I didn't have plans for a car that I wanted to build, I would draw my own, using existing plans as a guide to keep things to scale. The gate car plans that I had were from a slightly different IRT gate car. I had that, and a Lo-V plan. I drew up my own H-O scale plans from the Lo-V plans, modifying them to deck roof Hi-V and 1938 WF. I had to draw the D-Type plans from scratch, pretty much, with nothing much to go by. I even drew up H-O plans for the A/B's, but I never attempted to build one. I used a scissor to cut straight pieces of cardboard and used single-edged razor blades from an old box cutter to cut out the windows. I put the cardboard on top of newspapers to do the cutting. I pasted clear plastic inside the cars to simulate the glass of the windows. The route and destination signs were made from cut pieces of business cards, blacked over with crayon and etched with a pin, then pasted on the clear plastic windows on the inside prior to assembly. You probably can't make out what the route and destination signs on my BU are from the scan. It is "CULVER LINE" "CONEY ISLAND". I started doing this in 1969, when the only way you could get rapid transit cars was to build them yourself. The first commercial model subway car builder was Q-Car Company, which got started in 1972. As a non-working student, I couldn't afford to buy their stuff, so I continued building my own. I used to have a 3-foot el structure that I built out of hobby wood, toothpics and cardboard. Its really funny. The only materials that I ever used for the cars and el that had anything to do with train modeling was the trucks for the cars and the tracks for the el. Everything else was 100% scratchbuilt from pure raw materials.
I can see those hours adding up just in reading your description of what you went through in building the model.
I have a vague recollection of someone posting here in recent months that the 1200's were being offered commercially (Was that you?).The post was made because they were trying to find out what color to paint their newly acquired models.
I recall some years ago that a company offered two car sets of the 600 series gate cars in brass for several hundred dollars. I think that company's name was WP Car Company.
I guess if you don't want to try to build any more, I sure better not even think about trying, because I am a lot older than you. Thanks for all of the information!
I can see those hours adding up just in reading your description of what you went through in building the model.
I have a vague recollection of someone posting here in recent months that the 1200's were being offered commercially (Was that you?).The post was made because they were trying to find out what color to paint their newly acquired models.
I recall some years ago that a company offered two car sets of the 600 series gate cars in brass for several hundred dollars. I think that company's name was WP Car Company.
I guess if you don't want to try to build any more, I sure better not even think about trying, because I am a lot older than you. Thanks for all of the information!
I never offered anything commercially. Back in 1973 and 1974, I did sell an IRT gate car, a Lo-V and a 1938 WF car at the ERA meetings, which I bitterly regret. I was a college student with no source of income other than my allowance from my parents, and selling subway cars. I sold the Lo-V and WF cars for $35 a piece and the Gate Car for $50. At the time, I didn't think I could get any more for them because they were "only" cardboard! Damn! To tell you the truth, I didn't think they would last too long. I thought they would get brittle and fall apart after several years. They are between 25 and 30 years old by now. The paint probably preserves them. They'll outlast anything the TA has running. I, unlike the TA will not scrap them after 35 years! All I can say is that I hope whoever bought those 3 cars from me still has them. I hope they didn't get destroyed (kids, pets) or thrown out.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Hey, I gave away a Nolan Ryan rookie card when we moved to Connecticut in 1973, something I still kick myself for doing. Of course, no one had any idea that Ryan would post the sort of numbers he did during his career. The Mets could have gotten a lot more for him, that's for sure.
I'm not into baseball cards anymore, but I did keep my 1968 Tom Seaver card.
Getting back on topic, one of my sister's friends once expressed an interest in one of my side destination signs. Nothing ever came of it, and I'm not so sure I'd want to part with any of my signs.
Just terrific! Please post photos of your other cars if you can! Also, I'm sure that Mr. Villani would love to have your models posted on his web site, which is devoted to modeling the NYC transit system.
You did great work in cardboard! Many people find it hard to believe that great models can be made from this stuff, but your work clearly shows it CAN BE DONE! All you need is the DETERMINATION. I don't know if you have ever seen the wonderful cardboard O scale models of Vern Gillman. Another model traction pioneer, Mr. Gillman has made marvelous models of various NYCTA prototypes including R-10's, R-12's, R-15's etc. out of cardstock that have full interiors and operate off of working third rail! He often displays his work at train shows in the greater NYC area, and has been at the Coney Island Shops Open Houses in the past.
Does any other city in the world use the same exact subway cars as we do here in New york? Can I one day wait for the subway in another city and see a train pull in looking exactly like one of ours?
No - They are pretty much custom built to the agency's specs.
Wayne
Does any other city in the world use the same exact subway cars as we do here in New york? Can I one day wait for the subway in another city and see a train pull in looking exactly like one of ours?
Because I grew up on the BMT Standards, when I was a kid, I thought every city with a subway had cars like the Standards. I was partially right. Philadelphia's Broad Street cars were similar. But the answer to that question is No. Subway cars are not the same everywhere. Fact is, no two cities have the same cars. They're all different. Subway cars are not like trolleys or buses. One true fact is that some lines in different cities are compatable. The SOAC ran in New York, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago. You can run a slant 40 on the Broad St. Subway in Philadelphia.
The only place I know where you can interchange Subway Cars is Singapore and Hong Kong. Singapore is almost a exact duplication of Hong Kong, same builder, mfg. Specs. When I look at photos the only wau I can tell is by the Red strip on the side for HK and the crooked strip On HK
The only place I know where you can interchange Subway Cars is Singapore and Hong Kong. Singapore is almost a exact duplication of Hong Kong, same builder, mfg. Specs. When I look at photos the only wau I can tell is by the Red strip on the side for HK and the crooked strip On HK
I would think that if the SOAC could run in NY, Boston, Phila., that those cities could use interchangeable equipment. The old Broad St. cars were so much like the A/B's, why couldn't you run them here and a slant R-40 there? The Broad St. cars were 67'X10', just like our A/B's. Tracks and 3rd rails are the same. Mkt-Fkd is another story.
Route 100 in Philadelphia used CTA equiptment for some time, I hear. They also used some of the old Almond Joy cars, but I do not know how they did that since they are a completely different track gauge.
Issac: At the time the Market-Frankford M-3's were sent to Noristown,PATH was in the process of disposing of some cars of the Class K fleet. Although many Class K's went into work service a number were sunk in the ocean off New Jersey to make a breakwater near the Jimmy Hoffa gravesite. The trucks from these cars were sent to Philly and used on the M-3's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always thought Jimmy Hoffer was buried below the 50 yard line at Giant Stadium
On a visit to PATH a few years ago, our tour guide mentioned a PATH employee who was also a SCUBA diver who would periodically dive where that artificial reef was. While the visit was 5 years ago, at that time we were told that the K-cars were holding up very well underwater!
--Mark
Yes, Route 100 had some old 6000-series cars from Chicago.
I don't know about specs, but the old cars that used to run on Market-Frankford in the 80s were quite reminiscent of many NYC trains. Broad St. curiously reminds me of the trains here in Baltimore.
I don't know about specs, but the old cars that used to run on Market-Frankford in the 80s were quite reminiscent of many NYC trains. Broad St. curiously reminds me of the trains here in Baltimore.
The old Broad St. cars were very similar to the BMT Standards, being 67' long and 10' wide. Even the door arrangements were the same. The MKT-FKD (Almond Joy) cars weren't compatable with anything in NY. The track gauge is different and the 3rd rail contact us underneath, not on top, like here.
12/05/99
S.O.A.C.
As discussed a couple of months ago , this car was sent to cities to show that a "universal" type car can be built saving transit operators big money. You know , off the shelf , like the Duwag LRV's.
Bu however , all the transit operators had their own ideas and that killed S.O.A.C..
Bill Newkirk
As discussed a couple of months ago , this car was sent to cities to show that a "universal" type car can be built saving transit operators big money. You know , off the shelf , like the Duwag LRV's.
Bu however , all the transit operators had their own ideas and that killed S.O.A.C..
Looking at it in retrospect, I don't know what purpose SOAC served except to give us railfans something unusual to ride and photograph for a while. The cars that it most resembled was the R-44 (the 46's weren't out yet). NY didn't make any improvements because of the SOAC. No other city used it for their car designs either. It was just more federal money blown.
NY didn't make improvements of the SOAC because the SOAC was built based on 2 R-44s that had some kind of accident at, I think, the DOT test facility in Pueblo, Colorado. That would mean the R-44s came first, then the SOAC, then the R-46s, but of course, I could be incorrect.
--Mark
NY didn't make improvements of the SOAC because the SOAC was built based on 2 R-44s that had some kind of accident at, I think, the DOT test facility in Pueblo, Colorado. That would mean the R-44s came first, then the SOAC, then the R-46s, but of course, I could be incorrect.
--Mark
Your order of events is correct. The R-44's came out in 1971. The SOAC came out in 1974. The R-46 came out in either 1975 or 1976. I do know that there were no R-46's when SOAC roamed the tracks of New York.
Actually the SOAC cars appeared at Transpo '72 at Dulles Airport in D.C. It was a one-of-a-kind expo dealing with public tranportation, a rare dealin these times. Most of the exhibit was planes but there was a good deal of bus displays. The U.A. Turbotrain was there too.
Quite enjoyable; never repeated.
Joe C
Unfortunately, the standardized mass transit vehicle ended with the PCC. Today each agency has its own sense of style, functionality and ammenities. The closest thing to a NYCT car is likely running on PATH. Couplers and operator's controls are somewhat similar.
12/04/99
[Unfortunately,the standardized mass transit vehicle ended with the PCC]
Not true. The PCC wasn't really standardized. Different widths,track guages,lenghts,door placements and other miscellaneous items. The PCC was standard in a way , but different to each transit lines specifications. Compare a narrowq width Philadelphia PCC to a Newark City subway PCC. Compare the lenght of a Toronto PCC to a Chicago PCC , (Chicago) now that's a long PCC with a whole lot of doors.
If you want to compare standardized equipment , compare Miami and Baltimore. Same thing , different color schemes. Los Angeles is very similar to the Miami/Baltimore car.
I heard that South Pole Transit has cars identical to our R-68's. But all the motormen bear a striking resembelence to heypaul!!
Bill Newkirk
Thank you all for the responses. I see that no two cities are alike in terms of their subway systems.
Yet another response.
The SIRT were LIKE the BMT Standards cars; SIMILAR!
So,too, the Cambridge-Dorchester "standards" for Boston. Those and the Philly Broad St cars were all LIKE the BMT cars. One car reminiscent of the other.
Now, the Baltimore MTA subway cars are almost EXACTLY alike to the Miami Metrorail cars, just some minor differences in agency specs.& colors. ALso, MTA Los Angeles'new Red Line cars are based on these designs. However, Ankara, Turkey uses Bombardier cars identical to TTC's; again some minor agency preferences.
Other than that, yes, all agencies are pretty much on their own.
Joe C.
Two questions:
1. Baltimore and Miami were both built as part of the same order, weren't they? (The LA cars do seem to be descendents of that model, too.)
2. Weren't the State-of-the-Art cars part of the R-44 order (or at least two extras using the same basic plan)?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Two questions:
1. Baltimore and Miami were both built as part of the same order, weren't they? (The LA cars do seem to be descendents of that model, too.)
2. Weren't the State-of-the-Art cars part of the R-44 order (or at least two extras using the same basic plan)?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
1. Baltimore and Miami are separate cities with separate operating authorities and sepatate funding. No, they weren't part of the same order.
2. Although the SOAC bears a striking resemblance to the R-44's, the SOAC was not part of the R-44 order. The R-44 was designed by the MTA and built by St. Louis Car Co., whereas the SOAC was designed by a Federal agency called the Urban Mass Transit Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation and built by Boeing-Vertol.
The Baltimore and Miami cars are 99.99% identical - same body, trucks, motors and control equipment. The only difference is that the Baltimore cars have end signs. The Miami cars don't.
>> The only difference is that the Baltimore cars have end signs. The Miami cars don't. >>
Also, the Baltimore cars have heaters, the Miami cars don't.
>2. Weren't the State-of-the-Art cars part of the R-44 order (or at
>least two extras using the same basic plan)?
Look at
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soacstats.html
-Dave
Sorry, guy, the SOAC was built with R44 bodies, supplied and built by St.Louis Car. Yes, UMTA had its hand in it.
The LA/Baltimore deal was a consortium purchase, to keep expenses down.
By the way, after yesterday's posts on this subject, something came to mind. Someone asked about cars on different systems. One answer should be the SIRT cars running on BMT lines in the 1950's.
Joe C
The SIRT cars were designed so that they could operate on BMT rails and navigate through BMT tunnels. Had the tunnel to Staten Island become reality, it would have been very common to see SIRT cars on, say, the 4th Ave. line not long after it opened.
Riding a Manhattan-bound F at 4:45 this morning (yawn!) through the new 36th street interlocking, it appeared as though crews were installing a new switch between the Manhattan-bound express track and the lead to the 63rd street tunnel (it was tough to see without a railfan window on the R-46!).
Lots of work equipment along the route -- including a diesel-drawn consist (one work car plus crane) sitting at Roosevelt Ave. on the Manhattan-bound express track.
That switch has been there for nearly 2 weeks, and the leading track down the ramp towards 21 St. appears to be complete, concrete and all. It looks almost ready to go.
It would seem that they will be able to run work trains through from end to end by now (sans signals). Looks like it's time for a late night photo expedition after the first of the year.
12/04/99
A photo expedition after the first of the year? Could this be a SubTalk thing?
Bill Newkirk
From the work being done at the old Long Island City HS at 28th Street here in LIC, they are still going down under the school everyday. On the corner of the school there has always been standpipe connections for both levels. The standpipes are labeled "NYCTA" and "LIRR". Accross the street where my old parking field stands the new and finished ventilation tower but they are still working in the building every day.
I have to walk over to the open pit one lunch hour to see how much more they have covered up. All work under the N line is done but the open pit by the vent. tower in the old parking field is surounded by plywood fence and not easy to view (unless you get a quick peek from the N train).
I would consider this a Subtalk thing to this extent. I'll go with one or two NYCT people who are trained in track safety and then let Dave publish the photos. Non-NYCT employees need not apply. Anyone interested can E-mail me and we can set it up.
In a recent vision I had, a former employee of
Transit Transit revealed to me an incredible plot
related to the threatened transit strike. He
claimed that the MTA hired a consultant from the WWF
to help orchestrate the transit negotiations. All
the threats and demands have been carefully planned
to lead up to STRIKE 1999 which will be a special
Transit Transit pay per view event on cable TV. The
interviews you see on the news are just like the
pre-match interviews on the WWF.
However, it is all leading up to a SETTLEMENT at
the last minute. The negotiators on both sides will
be seen leaving the final contract talks with arms
around each other, and they will be taken to the
Prospect Park Station, where a new R-142A will be
waiting. They will all help decorate this Millenial
Car with Holiday decorations, much like one operator
at SEPTA does with an LRV. After the decorations
are complete, they will all gather around a cozy
fire in the fireplace of the R-142A and they will
sing Christmas Carols. ( Yes, each R-142 will have
a fireplace, to give customers a cozy feeling in the
wintertime.)
To further this show of unity, two of the more
dissident union voices from our SubTalk will conduct
the singers. One of them agreed to do this only if
he is made as the Joker as portrayed by Jack
Nicholson. This will be happily done, as there will
be no limits to prove to the world that MTA will be
entering the new Millenium as one happy family eager
to be going your way.
Note to R142 fans. The decorated train with a Santa
aboard will go into regular service on the Franklin
Shuttle. Concerned people in cars and shops about the performance of the cars will
station a diesel and work crane along the route in
the event of any horrible accidents. Health &
Hospitals Corporation will keep their Mobile
Emergency Room Vehicle as well as their Mortuary
Wagon on Hot Standby.
Try as much as you like to forget it, remember you
heard this scoop on SubTalk.
I can picture a last minute settlement, I can even picture labor and management arm in arm, but no matter how hard I try, I can't picture a fireplace in a R-142. I think you must be overdosing on Entenmann's during this holiday season.
I can't picture an R-142 platforming at Prospect Park. The rest might happen.
The negotiators on both sides will be seen leaving the final contract talks with arms around each other, and they will be taken to the Prospect Park Station, where a new R-142A will be waiting.
That's not what I thought you were going to say: I thought it was going to be:
"The negotiators on both sides will be seen leaving the final contract talks with arms around each other, and they will be taken to the Park Place station, where a five car wooden L train with a scab motorman will be waiting."
I have read a great deal of messages either in praise of, or in denunciation, of Mayor Rudy, and though people who live in New York City have a better feel of things than non-New York city residents in such matters, sometimes an "outsider" can see a thing or two as well.
Simply put, if you think Hillary Clinton is going to be an improvement for the New York Subway System or for the state in general, I know a bridge that I can see you for a song. To wit, Hilarious Hillary is a pathalogical liar like her hubby, an elitist of the most disgusting order, and one who really holds middle class wage earners in contempt.
She would probably never ride the subway as it would be beneath her, a comfortable limo being more in style for that snob.
I have noticed over the years, however, of a curious malady that seems
to effect New Yorkers, that being their penchant for showing a lack of
pride in their state by accepting with open arms political "carpetbaggers" over their native sons. Bobby Kennedy (who I admired) is one, Buckley (whose first name I can't remember) is another. New Yorkers rejected native sons Ken Keating and Charles Goodell, both decent Senators, for these two people, neither of which was an effective Senator for New York. New Yorkers might be making that mistake for the third time.
I can tell you this: That sort of crap doesn't happen here in California. Pierre Sallinger tried to carpetbag his way into our state and even defeated Alan Cranston in the Demo Senate Primary in 1964. That resulted in voters deserting the Demos in droves to put George Murphy in the Senate. Two years later, Texan Lloyd Hand tried the same crap in the Demo Gubernatorial primary, and voters rejectred him in total. New York is a great state, Rudy has been a great mayor.
Show some real pride New Yorkers and send Hillary back to the White House or Arkansas or Yale, or wherever else. She is not a New Yorker and is using the state as a stepping stone for power elsewhere. If you cannot see this, then same on your fanny.
Yeah but seeing the expression on Rudy's face when he loses would be worth having anyone else win, incuding Hillary!!!!!
Jeff: Believe me or not, you will rue the day if Hillary wins. You must really dislike Rudy. Well that doesn;t even begin to compare with the contempt I hold for hilarious Hillary.
If you think the next year will be interesting politics in New York with a Giuli-Hillary race, wait and see what the following year will be like if Giuliani becomes Senator!
Mark Green will be Mayor and will hope to win on his own dime in 2001. You know Rudy won't be able to keep his yap shut over that one!
If Mark Green gets the Dem nod (but count on a bruising Democratic primary) who do you think the Republican will be. How about Bill Bratton?
Hillary is a media creation. She has no experience governing. She would probably go on a 'listening' tour of the subway and be horrified to find out that the subway lines terminate in Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx. I picture her wandering around Stillwell Avenue with a subway map in one hand and a cellular phone in the other. That's right, I despise her and her husband, what a couple.
As for 2001, Green's obnoxious personality will not help him. I think fiscal conservative, moderate democrat Hevesi has a good shot at the democratic slot. The NYC republicans know that Rudy was the exception and will probably put up a nobody just to have a name on the ballot. I'm sure Hevesi's name will also appear as an independent on the ballot to allow republican voters, mostly in Queens and Staten Island to vote for him without having to pull a lever for a democrat. What do all you democrats out there think??
Don't rule out moderate City Council Speaker Peter Vallone (a great guy) who was able to stand up to Rudy's bullying tactics.
I could see him running for Mayor and winning.
As for "Hick" Hillary, she probably thinks that the New York Subway is a kind of deli sandwich!!
Doug aka BMTman
Why has no one mentioned Floyd Flake. He would make a very strong and credible candidate. He maight even jump parties and run as a repbulican.
Mark, good point. I had overlooked Flake. I seemed to recall reading somewhere that he may take a stab at running for Mayor on the Republican ticket. He certainly has been an instrumental force in turning Jamacia (and surrounding areas) around economicaly.
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen Floyd Flake on TV and am very much impressed with him. If the Republicans could get him interested, that would be a great thing.
He has the look of a winner, and, besides, the GOP can put its money where its mouth is and open their so-called big tent.
Personally, I think the reason the Democrats are putting all their eggs into the basket of a carpet bagger is because the home town boys like Mark Green and Peter Valone are such weasels. After Rudy the Republicans still have a few rising stars like Susan Molinari. And that's just in southern portion of the state.
The republicans squashed Lazio's candidacy and the democrats squashed that Westchester woman's campaign (her name escapes me). Sue Molinari is a lobbyist now, living in Virginia. She is understandibly no longer interested in politics. Vallone may run for mayor in 2001. All of a sudden he is this hero of the working class, what's with that? He talks like it's still 1950 when labor had real power. Someone should tell him we are now in the information age. Think of it, we can't really produce quality candidates in NYC because most of the talented people are smart enough to stay out of politics. A bright talented republican would rather be a successful businessman. And bright talented democrats do not exist!
How about teaming Rudy and Hillary up as Train
Operator and Conductor on the D train, and let them
do their campaigning over the PA system in between
station announcements and train delays? This would
be good for both of them. For Hillary, it was
destroy the belief of some that she would never use
a subway, and it would give Rudy a chance to be in
control. Between 59th and 125th, they could have a
debate over issues or answer questions posed by
customers. It would very quickly solve some gripes expressed by workers here of inadequate restroom facilities for TA crews.
Yeah, and it can give Hillary and Rudy chances to get even with each other. Instead of verbal barbs, Hillary can piss off Rudy by holding the doors open even though Rudy has a double green on the signal and there are no holding lights.
Rudy can get even by giving Hillary the "two buzzer" indication to hold the doors when it is not necessary. Or he can piss off the riders by dumping the brakes between stations!
Fun and games await the Senatorial contenders on the subway system.
Doug aka BMTman
12/05/99
I wish we wouldn't bring up THAT WOMAN's name for it scares me that I may have to leave New York and join the French Foreign Legion to escape her demonic ideas. Like a dummy Hillary Ramrod Clinton dons a Yankee cap and proclaims "New York,Here I come!". Now somebody hand her a Metrocard and see if she goes shopping thinking it's a credit card.
Bill Newkirk
I wish we wouldn't bring up THAT WOMAN's name for it scares me that I may have to leave New York and join the French Foreign Legion to escape her demonic ideas. Like a dummy Hillary Ramrod Clinton dons a Yankee cap and proclaims "New York,Here I come!". Now somebody hand her a Metrocard and see if she goes shopping thinking it's a credit card.
The only reason why Hillary wants to be a Senator is because its one step from the Presidency. Its bad enough that she was running things with her milktoast husband in the White House. If she ever gets elected to the Presidency, I'll move to Iraq! She makes me SICK! Sicker than her husband makes me!
She still has my vote over Rudy!!!!
Jeff: Oh you kid: Come on. Wake up. She is a disaster waiting to happen.
Well now Mr. BMT you have some idea exactly how I feel about that $$$$######.
Well now Mr. BMT you have some idea exactly how I feel about that $$$$######.
Yeah! The same way I feel. After 2 terms of Billy Boy, with an impeachment, I hope this country isn't stupid enough to elect Gore. I also hope that NYS is not stupid enough to elect his wife. With all that Billy Boy did for the Chinese, is it any wonder that the Chinese heavily contributed to his reelection campaign. Don't be surprised when you find out that the Chinese are doing the same thing with the Gore campaign. They probably are. As for what Clinton did for the Chinese, I'm not even talking about the nuclear technology theft. That occurred under every President starting with Carter. Clinton is responsible for allowing the export of technology enabling China (and North Korea, Iran and Iraq) to develop the same sophisticated missile guidance systems as ours. Also, look around your house. Look in the stores. Everything is made in China. Maybe you, or somebody can answer this question for me: As far as I can remember, the USA always had a "Two China" policy, even though Mainland China and Taiwan always had a "One China" policy and each claimed to be the legitimate government of China. When did the United States embrace the "One China" policy, and also recognize Beijing as its legitimate government? Was it when the UN kicked Taiwan out and took Mainland China in as a member of the UN?
Mr. BMT: When Nixon went to China in February, 1972, he signed the Shanghai Communique in which he recognized Taiwan as an integral park of China. Even today Nixon is the most popular American figure in China.
No he is not Fred, when I was in China in May 98 it was Michael Jordan and Bulls. Every teenage had a bulls or Michael Jordan T Shirt or hat. They love their basketball there. Nixon Who???
Bob: You're right. I meant among American politicians.
Mr. BMT: When Nixon went to China in February, 1972, he signed the Shanghai Communique in which he recognized Taiwan as an integral park of China. Even today Nixon is the most popular American figure in China.
I guess that action was the beginning of our country being sold out to the Communist Chinese. I never thought Nixon was a communist sympathizer. Our policy of containment regarding the Chinese Communists was better. We are allowing them to slowly take us over. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but the Chinese are a very patient people. It took them 20 years to slowly steal all of our nuclear secrets.
Well, for the record, besides the Watergate fiasco, Nixon got in double trouble with his most ardent supporters for meeting with the Chinese government. After all, Nixon was the guy most anti-Communist with his backing McCarthyism and the like.
So he became a BIG hypocrite for alot of folks when he returned from Red China besides being a crook.
Doug aka BMTman
src="http://www.wavplace.com/snds/nixon.wav"loop="in
finite">
Well, for the record, besides the Watergate fiasco, Nixon got in double trouble with his most ardent supporters for meeting with the Chinese government. After all, Nixon was the guy most anti-Communist with his backing McCarthyism and the like.
So he became a BIG hypocrite for alot of folks when he returned from Red China besides being a crook.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah! You just don't know about some people. Is Clinton any different? I think he sold out to the communists more than Nixon did.
But Susan Molinari ISN'T a Phoney? Give me a break!!! She gave up a promising political career to become a TV hack commentator.
She would never have had a career if it wasn't for her whining and complaining dad from the smellest borough in the city. The Molinari's are losers!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I must say you are consistant. Consistantly a Democrat - Consistantly wrong. Mark Green & Petie Vallone follow in the footsteps of other pandering political weasels like Dave Dinkins and Mario the Magnificent.
Today's Question: Which political party did the governor who closed the 3 big mental hospitals on Long Island, belong to?
Wanna know why Kendra Webdale is no longer with us? Wanna know why we have young ladies with their heads smashed open by bricks? Look no further than your socially conscious, politically correct Democratic Party and their irresponsible policies
Not consistantly. I have not VOTED exclusively Democrat or Republican over the last ten years.
Don't think you know someone strictly on how they say in their posts. You know what happens when you ASSume.
Besides, I occasionally play the devils advocate just to see who I can tweek at SubTalk. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Steve baby: I love you! Give them hell.
[Rudy has been a great mayor.
Show some real pride New Yorkers and send Hillary back to the White House or Arkansas or Yale, or wherever else. She is not a New Yorker and is using the state as a stepping stone for power elsewhere. If you cannot see this, then same on your fanny.]
Whatever I may think about her, I don't think Hillary is going to win this one. But my doubts about Giuliani as senator derive from different considerations--firstly, I hate losing him as mayor, and secondly, I'm not sure he's the senatorial type--he's a wonderfully strong executive whose bulldozer approach may not go over well in a consensus-based body where a 90-year-old from Tennessee has veto power over anything New York wants, and vice versa. That in spite of the fact that apart from his failings in the area of civil liberties Giuliani strikes me as representing the very best of today's Republican party, a hard-headed realist who's been willing again and again to take on entrenched special interests for the City's benefit, and is worlds apart from the religious right fringe issue/another tax cut for the rich types who currently control the national party (but may not for long if Bush is elected).
I'd much rather see Giuliani replace the disappointingly mediocre Governor Pataki in a position at which I think he'd excel--I can't think of anyone better able to wean New York State from self-defeating pork barrel politics.
Yes, a sane political voice at SubTalk! Josh, you have expressed some things that needed saying. Giuliani is not a favorite of mine on many counts but the Republican party needs someone of his caliber to counter-balance the "redneck/Sunbelt" lean that the National Party has been represented by in recent years.
As a matter of fact, my problem with the Molinari's -- father and daughter -- is that they just 'go-along-to-get-along' with their fellow Republicans rather than have the balls to fight for change within the party. For instance, I think Susan was a lame-o by not standing tall for what she believed in strongly -- woman's right to choose (abortion issue). Instead she copped out by leaving the political arena for a 'safe' job in media pundancy. My respect for her disappeared after that.
Doug aka BMTman
[As a matter of fact, my problem with the Molinari's -- father and daughter -- is that they just 'go-along-to-get-along' with their fellow Republicans rather than have the balls to fight for change within the party. For instance, I think Susan was a lame-o by not standing tall for what she believed in strongly -- woman's right to choose (abortion issue). Instead she copped out by leaving the political arena for a 'safe' job in media pundancy. My respect for her disappeared after that.]
Similarly, Bush went down in my estimation when he refused to disavow Buchanan, even though many Republicans were urging him to take a stand.
Remember the years when Nelson Rockefeller vetoed anti-abortion legislation year after year? I guess I'm not the first to wonder what happened to politicians with principles . . .
The President comes to NY and in a show of true political sportsmanship the mayor himself goes out to JFK to meet Mr. Clinton.
The Mayor greets the president at the foot of the stairway from AirForce One and says "Welcome to NY Mr. President." he then notices that the president has a baby pig under his arm. Still being the consumate politician, Rudy says, "That's a fine looking pig,you got there, Mr. President."
The President smiles and says, "Mr. Mayor, that's not just a pig, it's an Arkansas Razorback."
The Mayor smiles and says "Forgive me Mr. President, that's a swell looking Arkansas Razorback you got there."
The President smiles and says, "Yup, I got him for the first lady."
to which Rudy replies, "Excellent trade, Mr. president....."
Who says Rudy has no class?
LOL
Drum Roll!!! With Cymbals!!!!
Don't quit your day job.!!!! :)
I won't if Hillie don't.....
Way to go Steve. I love it.
It was James Buckley. It's hard to say if he was a true carpet bagger becuase he never moved to New York. he remained in the Connecticut during the six almost forgotten years he was a senator.
Does anyone remember who was governor between Rockafeller and Hugh Carey?
Malcolm Wilson, the man for whom the Tappan Zee Bridge has been recently commemorated.
Way to go!
"Rudy vs. Hillary" overshadows by a long margin the less interesting contest between the choir boy and the frat boy for President. Any New Yorker that hasn't taken sides yet is in a serious coma. Regardless, the future for public transit in New York (and elsewhere) is not assured. It's not a priority issue for either candidate.
OK folks, its time for SubTalk to vote for one of them. Please CLICK HERE to vote for either Rudy or Hillary.
Note: the poll has been on my site for a while now.
Jeff, I am not a resident of New York state and can't bring myself to make a decision on those two. Both are totally loathsome. Hillary is a carpetbagger and should be dismissed out of hand. But she is following New York rules, to New York's discredit. If Rudy was elevated to the Senate, would New York be in a position for a better mayor? (Rudy played the fool in the Brooklyn Museum flap). If the unions support Hillary, that might (just might) be positive for public transit. Has either of them taken a position on the Second Avenue subway?
12/08/99
Rudy hasn't officially announced his candidacy for the Senate yet , seems he was waiting for H*****y to annouce. Nobody is taking into consideration and I don't mean just SubTalk , that maybe Rudy isn't really running. What about Al D'Amato ? Maybe the Republicans will make him the candidate.
Bill Newkirk
Did anyone consider that despite what we have seen and heard over the past few months, that Hillary isn't running either? I am still betting that she won't, and Rudy won't and we will end up with Andrew (AARGH!) Cuomo or some other looser like him.
Just 2 day they announced that Chelsa will be filling in for her Mom as first lady at certain functions. Are the Clinton's sick or what!!
Another Cuomo? If you New Yorkers aren't convinced by now that Mario baby was just a verbose liberal windbag that help to ruin New York, then you haven't learned a damn thing.
That's one rumor that I was hearing, that Hillary would find some reason to drop out (she has plenty already) and the A.C. was waiting in the wings to "take" the nomination. I suppose his buddy Castro (Fidel, not Bernadette) will be his campaign manager.
Mark: Forget it!. Hillary is running and it is up to you New Yorkers to see that this carpetbagger elitist is sent back to Arkansas where she belongs and not to Washington D.C. The whole country is watching New York to see if they are a people of pride or will let any tin horn come in and represent them.
I'm still betting that for one reason or another, she will not be on the ballet in November, but if she is, I hope Rudy beats her 3 to 1!.
Mark: Forget it!. Hillary is running and it is up to you New Yorkers to see that this carpetbagger elitist is sent back to Arkansas where she belongs and not to Washington D.C. The whole country is watching New York to see if they are a people of pride or will let any tin horn come in and represent them.
Hillary has announced her candidacy. It was in the news. She is as fit to be a Senator as her husband was to be the President. Get them both the hell out of here!
I think that Hillie is in for the long haul. Not because she thinks she can win but I think she has her eye on all those un-spent campaign funds that do not have to be accounted for. Al (Sharpie) Sharpton has similarly found this simple way to milk the cash cow of NY Politics. We as new yorkers should see how cynically the Democratic party views the electorate of this state by offering up Hillie in the first place. let's repudiate these bums. (I already have by changing my party affilliation)
Well, having Rudy for Senator won't help much as he'll become a lame duck. He's not the type to work with other people so chances are his ideas will get shot down.
And Hillary should not be representing New Yorkers.
It's too bad there aren't any other real options to those two.
(I almost forgot Al "Grandpa" Lewis of the Green Party :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Granpa Al Lewis. How about Howard Stern for Governor!!!
Granpa Al Lewis. How about Howard Stern for Governor!!!
Howard Stern isn't fit to govern a toilet bowl.
Yeah, but he knows how to dish out Bulls--t! That makes him qualified to at LEAST govern a toilet bowl in my book!
Doug aka BMTman
He's more fit than Rudy.
How about Rosie O'Donnell for Mayor? She seems to know all about how to solve the city's homeless problems (Rosie of course spends all her off time ministering to the denisens of the Broadway-Lafayette station when she's not doing her TV show or dressed up like an elf for some ABC Christmas special)
When Rosie decides to cut back on her arduous schedule, she can do an occasional commercial. She would be perfect for an advertisement playing the role of BEFORE.
Hey! I resemble that remark:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Physically, perhaps, I don't know because I don't know what you look like. Spiritually and character wise, I read you as having it all over Rosie. She has no class and is a big mouth who brain never seems to be engaged before she puts her mouth in gear./ Have a great weekend.
Well, here's the picture, right here on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're bearded but from what I can tell you have an honest face. By the way, I will be retiring from my teaching job in a year, and I hope to partake in some of those trip you railfans take. Have a great day.
How dare that Pumkin Headed Dolt presume to suggest that she knows what is best for the homeless. On many an early-early morning, I'll walk 32nd street from 7th Ave to 6th Ave and see every doorway clogged with sleeping homeless people. Then I'll descend into the PATH/NYCT station at 34th & 6th to find many many more sleeping in every corridor. Are these the rights she seeks to defend? What about my right to walk one block, unmolested. Does this city have no right to protect its image? These are disfunctional people that need to be forced into some form of treatment and/or work for shelter program. The mayor is on the right track on this issue and its unfortunate that we can't relocate some of these unfortunates to Westchester so Ms. O'Donnell can see them on a daily basis.
And Ba Ba Boowie as Lt. Governor!!! LOL!!
Now were talking. Stuttering John for mayor!!!!!!!!!
3TM
Main St-Flushing. Transfer:Q14,Q16,Q20a,Q20b,Q44, Connection: Q25,Q34,Q65,Q66,QBx1. Little Neck Pkwy bound G. 150St is next. Transfer to the Q15. Stand Clear.........
I want Jackie "the Jokeman" Martling for City Council President!
:-)
Fred Eric Norris for borough president............
3TM
Crocheron Av. Transfer to the 7 line on the lower level. The Q28 down on the street level. The next station will be Utopia Pkwy. Transfer to the Q12. Stand clear.........
No way!!!! Robin Quivers for Lt Gov!!!!
NO WAY!
I have plans to make her my peronsal conqubine!!! (Selfish me ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Good show Steve. Now if another one million New Yorkers get the message, then we will be finally rid of the Clintons. Thank God if it happens.
Just 2 day they announced that Chelsa will be filling in for her Mom as first lady at certain functions. Are the Clinton's sick or what!!
The Clintons are sick--in the head!
I have read a great deal of messages either in praise of, or in denunciation, of Mayor Rudy, and though people who live in New York City have a better feel of things than non-New York city residents in such matters, sometimes an "outsider" can see a thing or two as well.
Simply put, if you think Hillary Clinton is going to be an improvement for the New York Subway System or for the state in general, I know a bridge that I can see you for a song. To wit, Hilarious Hillary is a pathalogical liar like her hubby, an elitist of the most disgusting order, and one who really holds middle class wage earners in contempt.
She would probably never ride the subway as it would be beneath her, a comfortable limo being more in style for that snob.
I have noticed over the years, however, of a curious malady that seems
to effect New Yorkers, that being their penchant for showing a lack of
pride in their state by accepting with open arms political "carpetbaggers" over their native sons. Bobby Kennedy (who I admired) is one, Buckley (whose first name I can't remember) is another. New Yorkers rejected native sons Ken Keating and Charles Goodell, both decent Senators, for these two people, neither of which was an effective Senator for New York. New Yorkers might be making that mistake for the third time.
I can tell you this: That sort of crap doesn't happen here in California. Pierre Sallinger tried to carpetbag his way into our state and even defeated Alan Cranston in the Demo Senate Primary in 1964. That resulted in voters deserting the Demos in droves to put George Murphy in the Senate. Two years later, Texan Lloyd Hand tried the same garbage in the Demo Gubernatorial primary, and voters rejectred him in total. New York is a great state, Rudy has been a great mayor.
Show some real pride New Yorkers and send Hillary back to the White House or Arkansas or Yale, or wherever else. She is not a New Yorker and is using the state as a stepping stone for power elsewhere. If you cannot see this, then shame on your fanny.
SOURCE: official AFC Bulletin. They go on sale at 7am on 12/13/1999.
As usual I have grouped stations to save space
28--1.9,N,R
34-B,D,F,Q,N,R
Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge-4,5,6,J,M,Z
14-4,5,6,,L,N,R
Astor Pl-6
8th- N,R
Spring-C,E,6
23-1,9,F,6
Prince-N,R
West 4- A,B,C,D,E,F,Q
33-6
5th Ave/42-B,D,F,Q,7
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
59th/Columbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
57-N,R
50-1,9,C,E
49-N,R
51/Lex-E,F,6
59/Lex-N,R,4,5,6
63/Lex-B,Q
68-6
77-6
66-1,9
72-1,2,3,9
86-B,C,1,9,4,5,6
81-B,,C
79-1,9
96-1,2,3,9
125-2,3,4,5,6
Boro Hall-2,3,4,5,M,N,R
Jay-A,C,F
Flatbush-2
DeKalb- L ONLY
86 BROOKLYN-R
7th Ave BROOKLYN-F
Atlantic/Pacific-2,3,4,5,B,M,N,R
15h/Prospect Park-F
Queens(Boro)Plaza- E,F,G,R,N,7
67av- G,R
Parsons- F
71/Continental-E,F,G,R
Union Turnpike- E,F
179-F
Steinway-G,R
63 Dr- G,R
82nd- 7
Main St-7
Jamaica Center- E,J,Z
Looks like a BIG run, based on the quantity of stations that will have them.
BTW, I have two examples from Chicago "Mints for people who ride in a metal box". It'll be interesting to see if the same copy is on the NYC version.
Mr t__:^)
When I see one, I'll post a description. When the MetroCard people (AFC- Automated Fare Control) send us a bulletin for a promo card, they do not include a picture, just the list of stations.
At this rate, the list is fine. Much appreciated.
Thanks,
JOe
SOURCE: official AFC Bulletin. They go on sale at 7am on 12/13/1999.
As usual I have grouped stations to save space
28--1.9,N,R
34-B,D,F,Q,N,R
Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge-4,5,6,J,M,Z
14-4,5,6,,L,N,R
Astor Pl-6
8th- N,R
Spring-C,E,6
23-1,9,F,6
Prince-N,R
West 4- A,B,C,D,E,F,Q
33-6
5th Ave/42-B,D,F,Q,7
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
59th/Columbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
57-N,R
50-1,9,C,E
49-N,R
51/Lex-E,F,6
59/Lex-N,R,4,5,6
63/Lex-B,Q
68-6
77-6
66-1,9
72-1,2,3,9
86-B,C,1,9,4,5,6
81-B,,C
79-1,9
96-1,2,3,9
125-2,3,4,5,6
Boro Hall-2,3,4,5,M,N,R
Jay-A,C,F
Flatbush-2
DeKalb- L ONLY
86 BROOKLYN-R
7th Ave BROOKLYN-F
Atlantic/Pacific-2,3,4,5,B,M,N,R
15h/Propsect Park-F
Queens(Boro)Plaza- E,F,G,R,N,7
67av- G,R
Parsons- F
71/Continental-E,F,G,R
Union Turnpike- E,F
179-F
Steinway-G,R
63 Dr- G,R
82nd- 7
Main St-7
Jamaica Center- E,J,Z
12/04/99
Subway Buff,
A SubTalker from Chicago sent me an Altoids CTA promo farecard. This advertisement was on the front of the card , while the back retained the instructions etc. as do the basic farecards.
Bill Newkirk
I was in Chicago last month and got an Altoids Mint card
"Breath mints for people who ride around in metal boxes."
Enjoy both happy holidays
Joe
Got the CTA card a while back. A real gem!
Thanks to the poster on the card update.
Joe C
Question: Will these be in vending machines or at the windows?
Also, what $ denomination?
Joe C
There is still two more years of "Millennial Journeys" yet to be released "by Dec 31", so I would expect the MVMs to carry the "logo" version of them.
Mr t__:^)
I've found the "horse" card, 13th century, recently. No logo though.
Joe C
Yeah, NYCT is behind schedule with releasing the "Millenianal Journey" series of MetroCards as they are going to have to "pick up the pace" if indeed all 9 are to be available by the end of this century.
Doug aka BMTman
Buy them at the booth at the stations listed. Since the cards are zero value when we pick up a card to place in the computer, the amount on the card (ort type of card) is based on customer request. If you want an unlimited card, it becomes an unlimited card. If you want $15, it becomes a $15 (plus $1.50 bonus)card.
The machines are selling the Millenial Journey Card. I will post list of upcoming MVM locations when I see official bulletins. See MVM World web site for a liost of current and planned locations (December 1999) .
Adapted from Official Info:
More unusal MetroCards
AutoGate MetroCard Male= Light Blue background for picture, female=purple background
All of these have the letter R
MABSTOA -uses the letter E. Colors: male=green, female=orange (NOT good fror NYCT subway or NYCT bus)
Temporary Reduced Fare MetroCard. White with purple letters. R
L I Bus Male- L on light blue background
female- L on red background
Senior uses : L
S
(L over S). This is only good for LI Bus discount. Not good for subway.
I do not have SIR(TOA), MetroNorth or lIRR info other than the official info that they are not good for free subway/bus rides.
SIR is governed by the same rules as the rest of the NYCT system.
-Hank
Hank, not quite! My pass is a U pass (Universal)- but I have to pay on SIR trains (and LIRR and Metro North, and LI Bus, and Express bus and the private lines).
While not sure, employees of SIR(TOA) must have some letter or xcolor on their pass that is different.
[I have to pay on ... and the private lines]
That's the fault of the "suits" at the TA, they won't let our drivers ride for free, so we returned the favor !
P.S. TA staff, particularily mngt., trys to ride our buses for free all the time. So do the guards at Riker's Island.
Mr t__:^)
Recently i walked by the 239th street yard,i noticed that the R-110 train was gone.Where did the train go? will be in service with the R-142 and does anyone have any pictures of the R-142 what is the big secret about this new set of trains?
Check all the chop shops in the South Bronx.
Doesn't the TA have all of their subway cars in the Bronx equipped with Lojack?
Doesn't the TA have all of their subway cars in the Bronx equipped with Lojack?
If they do, to their surprise, some of the cars may turn up in Hong Kong.
Yeah, I hear they're running a string of R9's in their subway system that they stole from East NY 20 years or so ago. LOL
Yeah, I hear they're running a string of R9's in their subway system that they stole from East NY 20 years or so ago. LOL
If Castro ever builds a subway in Havana, he would probably run stolen R-16's that his people snatched from the scrap track.
Could someone please explain to me how someone 'steals' a sub car? It's not like something that one could easily fit in their pocket.
Could someone please explain to me how someone 'steals' a sub car? It's not like something that one could easily fit in their pocket.
How does one steal a car or an airplane? You can't fit those in your pocket either. There must be a physical track connection from the subway system to Amtrak. I'm sure, once on Amtrak, you could make your way to Mexico and then Central America. All you need is a Diesel locomotive. When you get to Argentina, put the damn thing on a freighter and send it to Pyongyang. The North Koreans will parade it in the streets.
So how long before we can expect to see retired REDbirds in China? They're already painted for the occasion.
So how long before we can expect to see retired REDbirds in China? They're already painted for the occasion.
The Chinese think that our Redbirds are ICBM's and they're trying to mount our stolen nuclear warheads on them. They are still trying to get the Redbirds to stand up vertically, with no success. They are sending more spies over to the TA to learn how to do that.
Roumour has it the NYC Transit System was being considered for launching ICBMs in the late '70s. With all the deferred maintenance abd breakdowns taking ther toll, no one could keep track of where the missles would be, so on one would be able to find them and neutralize them!
--Mark
Roumour has it the NYC Transit System was being considered for launching ICBMs in the late '70s. With all the deferred maintenance abd breakdowns taking ther toll, no one could keep track of where the missles would be, so on one would be able to find them and neutralize them!
--Mark
If it was in 1979, they should have been fired at Khomeini.
Remember the bungled rescue mission? 'Nuff said.
As for the R-16s, if there are any in Cuba, they can keep 'em. Hey, Jerry Stiller suggested the hijackers in the original Pelham were going to "fly the train to Cuba" as part of their getaway.
That's more like ROF (rolling on the floor).
12/04/99
You mean that detective TV show from the 70's ?
Bill Newkirk
You mean that detective TV show from the 70's ?
No, that was Kojak, not LoJack.
12/05/99
No that was Kojak , not LoJack.
No wonder it was difficult steering my car with those lollipops wrapped around the steering wheel!
Bill Newkirk
Or look for a subway car up on cinder blocks, kinda like a few M-1s were in the sunnyside yard last year.
And if you hear any cars going around with stereos that sound like a subway PA and go "ding dong" every now and then, chances are, it's a hot system ;)
On a serious note, I was just thinking that the R110A might be down in Brooklyn right now, at Coney Island Yard. If the R142s are here, and they're supposed to be, this sounds like a good time for shop personnel to take comparative notes between the existing R110A equipment and the newer R142 equipment. Things should get particularly interesting when the Kawasaki R142As get here. A real comparative analysis could take place between the old and new. Kawasaki R142As to 239th St Yard? I wonder.... E180th St Yard is supposed to handle the new fleet, but a poster here sometime ago mentioned that the Kawasaki Cars would show up at 239th St. This is something to watch for.
I won't judge the R142 until it's had time on the road. If someone can produce Mean Distance Between Failures for these cars after a certain time on the road, then I'll make a judgment call.
I imagine that the R110A will be rebuilt to R142 Specs. They don't have to go out for good just because they're experimental. Hey, Kawasaki could remanufacture them or be done in house by TA personnel!!!!
Anyone been up to the Yonkers (Kawasaki) plant yet?
-Stef
They have been keeping the 110A in the barn when not in use. I don't know why they are doing this, but when it was not in the yard it was in the barn.
The R110A are most likely at the museum in Kingston, NY. Did the union something to with it?
For those interested, I just emailed Dave Pirrmann a large batch of OLD construction pictures and track location maps of the whole Bklyn grade crossing elimination. If we ask him real nice, he may post them all. The maps also show where the tracks once ran in the streets, in the current street system.
I would really like to see the route of the Manhattan Beach division on a current street map. Thank you Bob, and thank you David if it's possible to put that up. paul
The photos appear to be scanned from a book- I can't simply go ahead and post them without permission from the copyright holder. Bob, can you give us the name/author/publisher of the source? People could then look it up on their own.
The title of the book is "Reports of the Brooklyn Grade Crossing Elimination Commission 1918".
Since the Commission is clearly a defunct entity, I dont see a copyright problem. Also, the purpose of the report was to disseminate to the public, information on an important public works project that involved huge amounts of tax payers money. Its pretty unlikely that most people interested in this subject will find this book available elsewhere.
Bob
I agree. I have seen the Grade Crossing Elimination report of 1918 at the Brooklyn Public Library. For anyone interested in early Kings County railroad history, the BPL has an extensive collection at the Grand Army Plaza branch.
Doug aka BMTman
Extensive? What exactly do they have there dealing with Kings County Railroads. Thought I had seen most of their stuff. Could I be missing something?
Well, for starters the 'Brooklyn Collection' has bound volumes of BRT newsletters and notices from the turn of the century and up till BMT reorganization.
Then there are most if not all of Vincent Seyfried's LIRR History volumes; Grade Elimination Commission legal documents (mostly in legalese and not railfan friendly reading); Philip (Copp) Coppola's draft of his comprehensive history/analysis on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle; some of the older (and current) Joe Cunningham, Brian Cudahy, James Greller and Ed Watson subway/trolley books.
There may be some other items I overlooked, but that's the bulk of their best railfan material. Not a shabby collection at all, I'd say.
Doug aka BMTman
The material from the Grade Crossing Elimination Report has started to become posted. More pictures and complete maps will be added shortly, and captions will be added. Right now, you can see the Bayridge line at 4th Av, the BRT subway is in the lower level of the trough in the cross bridge. The Sea Beach "mystery" tunnel can be clearly seen at left, the old Bay Ridge Pkwy (now Belt Pkwy entrance ramp)is up on the right. The URL's are
www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/images/br1.jpg
www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/images/br1a.jpg
More pix etc of the Bay Ridge Line etc. are now at
www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/raw/
Wow..... Those pictures are really great.
Many thanks Bob for putting them up.
And thanks to Paul Matus.
Not shabby at all, I agree. I've seen or possess most of those items with the exception of the BRT newsletters and notices. I'll have to look into those the next time I'm at the museum. What exactly are these newsletters and notices?
OOOpps! I forgot to mention that BPL also has one or two issues of Paul Matus' 'Third Rail' and/or 'Silver Leaf' publications.
Doug aka BMTman
Alan, I believe the BRT items are similar to the NYCT's 'In Transit' newsletter that is essentially the employees newspaper.
What I saw of them was historically interesting, but not to the extent that a railfan who is enamored with equipment would necessarily appreciate.
Doug aka BMTman
If the commission was a public agency, there was no copywrite laws. Also if no one renewed it after 50 years (1968) it is public domaine(if it was copywrited)
If there are any upcoming railfan trips? I am looking to meet some of you guys that post on SubTalk. Please let me know any info.....
3TM
89St. Connection to the Q19B. The next station will be Junction Blvd. Connection to the Q72 down on the lower level. Stand Clear....
I've seldom hear of any fan trips in the winter.
Illinois Railroad(way?) Museum (IRM) is noted for its "Snowflake Special" fantrips operated in the cooler months that Illinois experiences.
I'm new here, so you've probably answered these questions a couple of times, but I'll still ask:
1. Why has MNRR abandoned the Putnam line? It would seem to be a good way to encourage central Westchester customers (Elmsford, Ardsley) to commute by mass transit.
2. Why has SIRTOA abandoned the North Shore line? I know that the Howland Hook connection isn't happening right now (if ever), but it seems as if service to St. George, from Port Richmond and beyond would still be feasible.
(1) Metro North did not abandon the Putnam Divison - the NY Central RR did, in 1958. While parts of it may still be used for freight, it has not seen a passenger train in 4l years, which is why the old Polo Grounds shuttle closed in 1958 as well (remember the field trip on 12/19!) Also, the "Put" never had third rail, so its customers had to change at High Bridge for MU trains to GCT, or get off at the Sedgwick terminal and switch to the IRT.
(2) I am not a Staten Island expert, but I do know that the North Shore line goes along the waterfront and is not always close to major residential clusters along the northern side of the island. Again, SIRTOA did not abandon this route; the old SI Rapid Transit, owned by the Baltimore and Ohio, abandoned it in 1953 as part of a deal with NY City (augmented bus service on Richmond Terrace would be provided in lieu of SIRT trains). "Abandoned", in this context, refers to passenger trains; freight service continued until recent years.
A section of the Put did have third rail from Sedgewick Avenue to Van Cortlandt Junction from 1926 to 1943. This was used by trains of the three mile long Getty Square Branch. Although the branch was served by electric mu trains they did not run into Grand Central but terminated at Sedgewick Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No wonder the "Put" was abandoned. It actually had third rail, yet did the geniuses at the New York Central ever once actually think of operating those Getty Square trains (and other "Put" trains) into Grand Central. Whose ridiculous idea at the Central was it to terminate the "Put" at Sedgewick Avenue?
Not to go over old ground, but I suggested reactivating the Put as far north as Tuckahoe Road, and putting in parking garages off the exist from the Cross County, Saw Mill, Thruway and Sprain for Park-n-ride. A direct run to GCT from two or three stations might work. You'd have to put in a flying junction at the Hudson, however, to no screw up Hudson line service.
[Not to go over old ground, but I suggested reactivating the Put as far north as Tuckahoe Road, and putting in parking garages off the exist from the Cross County, Saw Mill, Thruway and Sprain for
Park-n-ride. A direct run to GCT from two or three stations might work. You'd have to put in a flying junction at the Hudson, however, to no screw up Hudson line service.]
Probably a workable idea ... assuming, of course, that the right of way is still intact. Some parts of the r-o-w farther north in Westchester have been converted for use as a recreational trail. I don't know what the state of the r-o-w is like in the lower portions of the county.
There is really nothing left of the old Putnam. I remember taking it to camp in Mahopac in 54. We met a Lower level in Grand Central, took a local to University Hts, and took a connecting train from there, it was pulled by a old RTS diesal
"....it was pulled by a old RTS diesal."
It was pulled by a bus which wasn't built for another 23 years? Wow, if it was pulled by any bus, it had to be one from the future!
The RTS Diesal was built in the late 40s early 50s, I think it was by Alco. I have to find a early diesal book. It was the equivelent of the EMD GP 7. If you want to know about railroads, learn the earlier equipment that was used.
Exactly how far upstate does the Putnam line go?
Putnam County?
It ended around a place called Golden's Bridge. The line is cut in several places in Westchester County, by buildings placed inconveniently on the road bed. There's a good map of it in Arcara's book. The line was supposed to go to Montreal.
Did it go to Putnam County or was there some other source for the name?
I think Golden's Bridge is in lower Orange Co. I'd have to dig out Arcara's book to find out how it got its name. I do remember reading that it was supposed to go all the way to Montreal. Probably supposed to compete in some way with the Old & Weary.
Orange County is on the west side of the river! The Put ended at Putnam Junction in Brewster. Also, to correct an earlier post, the last run was on 29 May 1958, not 1959. The Put was originally part of a scheme to connect Boston to western NY and Pennsylvania; it represented the branch line to NYC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It connected to the Harlem line North of Brewster. It was called the Putnam because it ended in Putnam County. Some trains did go further north the Brewster I thing Goldens Bridge is in Northern Westchester on the Harlem Div. Near the Clinton s New house
Funny you should mention that the line ended in Brewster. If you remember the TV show "That Girl" with Marlo Thomas (What a crush I had on her) the show supposedly took place in Brewster and the closing credits showed track from a rear rail-fan window or open platform. Anyone know, was that the Putnam Line or another or did Hollywood pull another switch?
My guess is that Hollywood pulled another switch, since there was no passenger service on that line by the time of the filming (and limited freight service as well).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it was done, it probably was done on the Harlem, remember at that time you had to switch at White Plains or take a diesal train North of No White Plains
The southern part of the line is also supposed to be turned into a bike/recreation trail, to form a continuous route through Westchester. Not sure if this has started.
I grew up in a subdivision in Yorktown Heights right next to the Putnam right of way. I always hoped someone could reactivate it as a rail line -- impossible, of course ... even construction of the trail encountered NIMBY opposition.
<< Whose ridiculous idea at the Central was it to terminate the "Put" at Sedgewick Avenue? >>
The line that became the Putnam Division was incorporated as the New York and Boston railroad in 1869. It was leased to the New York Central and Hudson River RR in 1894 and merged with therailroad in 1913. The last passenger train operated on May 29, 1959.
The Put was never electrified (except for between Getty Square Sedgwick) and and neither steam nor diesels could operate into GCT. Changing engines at High Bridge for a run to GCT was not considered because a second crew would have been necessary and the Central didn't want to pay a second crew for the seven mile run (the unions objected to interdivisional crew assignments). The Central also claimed GCT was at full capacity and no more trains could be run into the station.
What about dual-power locos? The NYC bought 35 dual-power engines in 1930 and used them in the electrified-zone switching service (I think these were DES-2s and -3s)until the late 1940s. The NH bought FL9s in 1956, which ran straight into GCT. But the NYC said the switching engines weren't suitable for road power and it was too expensive to design a dual-power road loco, given that the Put would have been the only division that would have used it...I guess passengers didn't mind engine changes at Harmon! Ocassionally the dual-power locos were used for passenger service. I have a picture of 543 in service pulling out of Oscawana, NY with two MUs as trailers.
Also the Putnam never ran more then 3-4 trains a day in either direction, and there was always cross platform interchange with a Hudson Div at Highbridge and University Hts Stations. Sedgewick Ave was a connection to the Subway/(L Actually at the time)
Where, relative to what you can see today (9th Ave El remnents of Sedgwick Ave station under the Major Deegan Expwy) and the Metro-North tracks, did the Put terminate? Maybe this explains part of a larget concrete structure I saw in the area of the Sedgwick Ave IRT station a week ago.
In addition, I think you can still see remains of the Put along the Saw Mill River Pkwy ... sometimes you can see a roadbed, station canopy structures and remains of overpasses.
One other question, now that I think of it ... if you've ever traveled the Thruway north of Harriman, just after you come down a long hill, the Thruway runs at the base of a mountain. If you look to the left, you can see what was an old RR ROW. It appears this came off the current MNRR Port Jervis line. WHat RR used to run along this ROW and when was it abandoned?
--Mark
I think thats the same ROW that I saw from I-80 right before the
Deleware Water Gap. At the DWG location there is a one track ROW and what seems like an abandoned station of some sort. If you trace the ROW on a map. Its not on a map but use your imagination, it would lead up to Port Jervis.
Mark: After the Put was cut back from Manhattan it terminated at a set of platforms that ended right on the north side of the westbound 9 Avenue El platform. There was a joint entrance to the NYC and the IRT up on Sedgewick Avenue.
The ROW that you saw at Harriman is the former Erie RR Mainline. In April of 1984 trains were rerouted to the Graham Line between Newburgh Junction which was just south of Harriman to Otisville where they rejoined the mainline. Most of the former mainline was I believed abandoned. The Graham Line is now know as the Southern Tier Line and even though it was owned by Conrail,NJ Transit was the timetable authority for movements over this line.This may have changed with the Conrail breakup.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Mark: After the Put was cut back from Manhattan it terminated at a set of platforms that ended right on the north side of the westbound 9 Avenue El platform. There was a joint entrance to the NYC and the IRT up on Sedgewick Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, both the PUT and the Polo Grounds Shuttle were abandoned in 1958. Did the closing of one have anything to do with the closing of the other?
BMT: You raise a good point. The last train on the lower Put ran on May 29,1958 and the Polo Grounds Shuttle quit on two weeks later on June 15. I would think that after the Ninth Avenue El was closed below 155 Street on June 11,1940 there would have been little reason for any Putnam passenger to connect to the IRT although a few intrepid souls may have taken the shuttle to 155 Street and taken advantage of the free transfer to the IND. What probably had a more damning influence on the shuttle was the departure of the Giants from the Polo Grounds. That combined with the closurw of passenger service on the Put eliminated any reason for keeping the line. Toward the end the shuttle ran on a 30 minute headway with 15 minute rush hour service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Remember the Mets and Jets (TITANS) played at the Polo Grounds until Shea Opened. Also to Larry R Bird, Didn t the old NY O & W come off the West Shore at Harriman amnd go west from there also?
If I recall correctly the baseball Giants left NY after the 1957 season and the Mets did not begin until 1962. I'm not sure about the Titans though.
The O&W branched of from the NYC West Shore Line north of Cornwall and ran more or less west toward Middletown. A short section os still in use at Middletown as is the station itself.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The O&W branched of from the NYC West Shore Line north of Cornwall and ran more or less
west toward Middletown. A short section os still in use at Middletown as is the station itself. ]
The station is "used" to house several businesses (a barber shop and a real estate office, I think) and has a plaque commemorating the O&W.
But I thought there were no trains actually running there. If there are, where do they come from and where do they go to? I have wondered about this, since the RR crossing gates appear to be in good condition, as if they are indeed still in use.
The line extends south from MP 74 on the ex-Conrail Southern Tier Line through the old O & W Station in Middletown to a junction with the Middletown and New Jersey at about East Main Street. I drove right over the tracks last week and noticed how shinny the rails were. Maybe Lou from Middletown knows how often trains run over this line. It is now called the Crawford Industrial Track.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Freights run on it several times a week...I don't know if theres a schedule....Mostly deliveries for the Lumber company that is on the line and few small industries that are located in the old O&W shop buildings..so it might be on an 'as need' basis. One of the ironies of the connection to the Graham Line is that way back in the '50's the city fathers wanted to remove the Erie tracks from the middle of downtown, so the proposal had been made to construct a connection like there is now, and have the Erie and O&W share the station. Of course when Conrail closed the main between Howells and Harriman and put everything on the Graham line, it all became moot...
The Titans were a original AFL Team so they started in 60 or 61. I remember as a kid taking the O&W from the Old West Shore Term in Weehawken, taking the ferry from W 42nd and 12th Ave. They ran these trains to the Catskills during the Summer as far as Roscoe in Sullivan County. The train left in the AM and ran non stop along the West Shore div, and branched off somewhere near West Point to it s own track. The Diesals were their own. Probably F3s, they used to scrounge up all the old left over Pre War cars from every line in the Metro since they did not have many cars of their own. Mostly Erie, Lackawana and NYC Cars, with rattan seats no air of course. It was a long trip but fun. No dineing car, but vendors used to come on at many stations and sell sandwichs, soda etc. Remember this was the early to mid 50s
Am EXCELLENT book on the O&W in Middletown has been put out by the O&W NHRS chapter, you should be able to get a copy from the RAILFAN book service (they still carried it last time I looked...) You probaby got your 'snack' from the restaurant in the Middletown O&W station...
BMT: You raise a good point. The last train on the lower Put ran on May 29,1958 and the Polo Grounds Shuttle quit on two weeks later on June 15. I would think that after the Ninth Avenue El was closed below 155 Street on June 11,1940 there would have been little reason for any Putnam passenger to connect to the IRT although a few intrepid souls may have taken the shuttle to 155 Street and taken advantage of the free transfer to the IND. What probably had a more damning influence on the shuttle was the departure of the Giants from the Polo Grounds. That combined with the closurw of passenger service on the Put eliminated any reason for keeping the line. Toward the end the shuttle ran on a 30 minute headway with 15 minute rush hour service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know why the Giants leaving would have much to do with it. I don't imagine that many people used the shuttle to go to the games. I would imagine that most people would be taking the mainline D-Train rather than the shuttle. Anyone coming from the Jerome Ave. Line could have just as easily gotten the D at 161st St., as they could have gotten the shuttle at 167th St. The Jerome-Anderson and Sedgewick Ave. stations are not that far from 161st St. station either. Thinking from a practical point of view (not as a railfan), I would think that, after closing the 9th Ave. El below 155th St., the Polo Grounds Shuttle served no useful purpose outside of being a transfer point to the Put. It gave Put riders access to rapid transit to get them to Manhattan.
Thirty minute headways with 15 in rush hour would have been enough reason to close the shuttle. Except for transferring from the Put, anyone already on the Jerome Ave. Line would have been much better off going for the D-Train to get to 155th St.
One other question:
When did the free transfer from the D to the 4 go into effect? Was it in 1940, after unification, or was it in 1958 when they closed the shuttle? If it was in 1958, that would have been the primary reason to abandon the shuttle.
I remember the transfer being around between the D/4 at Yankee Stadium prior to 1955, when I used to go from one Aunt to another, because the bus took to long. The only time they had problems with iyt was on ball game days. There they dated and time the transfer which you had to get from a clerk, and they only gave 1 hour, and handed to another clerk on the other end. The other paper transfers I remember were at Franklin between the IND/Franklin Shuttle. Rockaway Pkway to the B42 Bus. Myrtle/Jay between L and IND, I think there was some others, I can not remember. Can anyone else remember?
I forgot the 3rd Ave L to the 7 Line at 14th and BMT at 14th St
I remember the transfer being around between the D/4 at Yankee Stadium prior to 1955, when I used to go from one Aunt to another, because the bus took to long. The only time they had problems with iyt was on ball game days. There they dated and time the transfer which you had to get from a clerk, and they only gave 1 hour, and handed to another clerk on the other end. The other paper transfers I remember were at Franklin between the IND/Franklin Shuttle. Rockaway Pkway to the B42 Bus. Myrtle/Jay between L and IND, I think there was some others, I can not remember. Can anyone else remember?
Thanks for the info about the D and 4 at 161. With the free transfer in place prior to 1958, the only reason I could see in keeping the Polo Grounds Shuttle running was due to the transfer point between the Put and rapid transit. The free transfer between the D and 4 at 161st St. made the Polo Grounds Shuttle, otherwise useless. I wish I had a chance to ride the Polo Grounds Shuttle. I was 4 years old when it ceased operation, but didn't even know that it existed until I was a teenager.
I was in NYC until I was 16 and never rode the 155th Shuttle. Oh by the way there was a paper transfer from the 155 St Concourse Line Station to the shuttle. I remember they ran 1 2 car train back and forth.
I think you meant between the J and ACF. Also the B35 between the B at 9Av and the F at Church. Also the B24 from Marcy to its terminal point...........
3TM.
108St. Transfer to the Q48 to LGA. The next station will be Shea Stadium. Stand Clear please..........
I remember the Rockaway Parkway B42 bus driving right into the BMT station so that a paper transfer wasn't needed. There were big gates so that you couldn't walk into the station (easily) through the bus turn around. This recollection is from the mid 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
The gates were not there prior to 58, I remember getting a transfer on the way out and it was good only on the B42. Maybe they put the gates in later. I understand now more then one route goes into the station.
No, the B6 and B82 still use the loop outside of fare controls.
The gates were not there prior to 58, I remember getting a transfer on the way out and it was good only on the B42. Maybe they put the gates in later. I understand now more then one route goes into the station.
The Rockaway Parkway station was renovated in the early 60's. That's provably when the gates went in. I also remember the bus at the station. On the platform, you could walk right from the train to the bus.
How about between the Bx55 and the IRT at 149th Street
from the time the 3rd Ave. El was eliminated until the
MetroCard transfers began.
How about between the Bx55 and the IRT at 149th Street
from the time the 3rd Ave. El was eliminated until the
MetroCard transfers began.
Didn't they also have one at Gunhill Rd?
"Didn't they also have one at Gunhill Rd?"
Until the Bx55 was cut back to Gun Hill Road and Webster Avenue.
When did the free transfer from the D to the 4 go into effect? Was it in 1940, after unification, or was it in 1958 when they closed the shuttle? If it was in 1958, that would have been the primary
reason to abandon the shuttle.
June 12th, 1940 sometime in the early morning. After the 9th Ave EL made its last run uptown and terminated at 155th St at about 12:08am, the 155th El station was closed for about 1 1/2 hours to prepare the station for its new service pattern; the "polo grounds" shuttle. Also, free transfers to the D at 155th St and at 161st St began.
--Mark
When did the free transfer from the D to the 4 go into effect? Was it in 1940, after unification, or was it in 1958 when they closed the shuttle? If it was in 1958, that would have been the primary
reason to abandon the shuttle.
June 12th, 1940 sometime in the early morning. After the 9th Ave EL made its last run uptown and terminated at 155th St at about 12:08am, the 155th El station was closed for about 1 1/2 hours to prepare the station for its new service pattern; the "polo grounds" shuttle. Also, free transfers to the D at 155th St and at 161st St began.
--Mark
Thanks for the info.
12/08/99
BMT Lines,
Yes! I have an abandonment poster for the Polo grounds shuttle that states those two reasons and the departure of the NY Giants.
Bill Newkirk
BMT Lines,
Yes! I have an abandonment poster for the Polo grounds shuttle that states those two reasons and the departure of the NY Giants.
Bill Newkirk
Interersting. I'm not about to argue with documentary evidence, but why would anyone have used the PG Shuttle to go to Giants games when the D-Train would have been more convenient, plus there was a free transfer between D and 4 Trains at 161 St. at least as far back as 1955, as indicated by another SubTalk poster who used the paper transfers in 1955. The TA has always used 2 excuses to tear down els:
1. Lack of ridership
2. Tearing down the el will enable revitalization of the neighborhood
If they closed the PG Shuttle because the Giants left, wasn't that a mistake? After all, the Mets used the Polo Grounds for 2 years until Shea opened.
Yeah but at the time nobody had any idea there would be a Mets. It was a few years down the road. And although I really don't know the answer to your 1rst question (I'm just guessing) I'm sure the transfer from the IRT to the shuttle (el to el) was easier than going from el to underground.
Yeah but at the time nobody had any idea there would be a Mets. It was a few years down the road.
Wasn't the same mistake made jumping the gun in demolishing the 2nd Ave. El? don't hold your breath waiting for the subway replacement!
The Shuttle joined the Jerome just south of 167th St Station, then crossed over to the southbound tracks North of the station, and reversed itself. A couple reasons for the closure was the lack of ridership, mosty of the times the train ran nearly empty. 2 it blocked up the Jerome Main by it s switching, and it ran duplication to the D and 4 Trains
12/08/99
Larry RedBird,
While traveling south on RTE.17 north of Harriman I passed an overpass and out of the corner of my eye was a building. I doubled back and up a street and sure enough was an old boarded up train station. Tracks were abandoned as well. Was this the old Erie-Lackawanna line?
Bill Newkirk
Bill: It sounds as though you came upon the original Harriman Station on the Erie Main. The stops on the old main line were Harriman,Monroe,Chester,Goshen,New Hampton,Middletown (not the one they use today), Howells and then Otisville. I believe that the south end of the old main line is still in use for frieght service at least as far as Harriman Village, but I could be wrong on that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
12/08/99
Larry,
On that Harriman station. Any idea when the station and the line was abandoned ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill: The first timetable that I have showing the new routing is dated April 29,1984.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, what I believe Mark saw is not the old Erie Main, but the old Erie Newburgh Branch, which runs thru various towns into the city of Newburgh; and I believe still (sort of) active. There has been numerous attempts by Newburgh area residents to have some kind of passenger service run on this line;most likely some of shuttle service using some kind of SPV. Otherwise they either have to cross the river into Beacon, or h drive to the Salisbury Mills/Cornwall station.(Which for some folks is a good 10-15 mile hike..) There is STILL a very short portion of the Main that runs about a 1/2 mile into the chemical plant there....Another good candidate for some sort of shuttle service on the PJ line is at Campbell Hall, where a NS branch runs up thru Maybrook, Walden, al all the way up to New Paltz (This is, of course the old LV line that ran over the Poughkeepsie bridge...). This particular area of Orange is especially booming right now ( the triangle formed by I-84,Rt 17, and the Thruway..),although the whole county is pretty much exploding...
Lou: You raised a good point. I hadn't though of the old Newburgh Branch. I think that that line has been out of service for some time. I believe that it started at Greycourt where it connected to the Lehigh and Hudson River and then ran north to Salisbury Mills and Vails Gate.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Lou...The Newburgh branch runs from the foot of Washington St. in Newburgh (where it connects with the CSX River line) to the Tarkett plant just across Rt. 94 in Vails Gate. This was only a branch off the line that used to go to Greycourt, but the tracks were ripped up in the mid-to-late 1980's, I believe.
The line to Tarkett used to join the Erie's Graham line somewhere in Highland Mills making stops at W. Cornwall, Mountainville, Highland Mills and Central Valley (nr. Woodbury Common); in fact, there is the remains of the Central Valley depot on the Graham line a few blocks off Rt. 32 in the village. This Erie branch to Newburgh was the RR's concession to Newburgh for bypassing them when they built West. I believe the branch below Tarkett had passenger service until the depression years. The NYS Thruway, more or less, follows the right-of-way of much of the line.
Carl M.
In April of 1984 trains were rerouted to the Graham Line between Newburgh Junction which was just south of Harriman ..
I haven't seen the rest of the posts yet, but it can't be .. this ROW runs right into the NYS Thruway, which means its abandonment must have been around the time the Thruway was built.
I am familiar with the Erie Main line which turned west at Newburgh Junction and ran to Monroe and points west.
--Mark
12/08/99
You know , all this talk about the abandoned Putnam Division is starting to sound like a future SubTalk walking tour!
My feet hurt just thinking about it.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: An interesting sidetrip would be the Getty Square Branch of that line. The station at Park Hill had some kind of an inclined railway or lift until about 1929 or so.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How far up is this ROW (approximate Thruway milepost)? Perhaps it was a siding off the "Graham line" (current Port Jervis line) intended to service the "STAR Mountainville" plant? (BTW, does anyone know what they make there?) If I understood you correctly, it is obviously not the old Erie mainline, since that turns west at Harriman and you are talking about something north of there. Or do you really mean looking left (west) and back (south) toward Harriman so that it could be that?
On this subject, awhile back I saw a book "Railroad Maps of North America" in a used book store. I didn't buy it, but should have. I'd love to have a book of maps showing where the active, inactive, and now-disappeared railroads were in the Northeast. Can anyone recommend a book and a place to buy it?
I have two book about railroad atlas.
(1) U.S. Railroad Traffic Atlas by Harry Ladd.
(2) Railroad Atlas of North America -- North East U.S.A. by Mike Walker.
I bought the first book at the Red Caboose in NYC, the second book in the Great Train Store in Union Station, Washington, D.C. You may go to the Red Caboose in NYC to look for them.
Chaohwa
On this subject, awhile back I saw a book "Railroad Maps of North America" in a used book store. I didn't buy it, but should have. I'd love to have a book of maps showing where the active, inactive, and now-disappeared railroads were in the Northeast.
Which spurs me to wonder again if anyone's thought of creating such a thing for the NY metro area (however you might define THAT).
I s'pose the response is, "Hey, if you'd like one, John, go out and create it!" Wonder how many copies of the NYC Subway track maps book have been sold. Multiple editions, obviously. Would such a book as I propose sell the same, do you think?
(Creating a railroad map of NY Area)
If you're going to do it, and I'll be happy to buy one if you do, better to extend yourself a little more and capture the Northeast, or at least New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. After all, seeing the railroad tracks doesn't tell you as much unless you know where they go, and inter-city railroads, unlike the subway, are not self-contained. That scope would be broad enough, along with arrows and notes to where the track connect to (ie. Chicago via Cleveland).
... capture the Northeast, or at least New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. After all, seeing the railroad tracks doesn't tell you as much unless you know where they go, and inter-city railroads, unlike the subway, are not self-contained.
The one *I'd* be most interested in buying is essentially the farthest limits of commuter trains in NYC metro area. It would reach to the ends of the NJ Transit lines, Port Jervis, Poughkeepsie, Wassaic, Danbury, Waterbury, New Haven and all of LI. Would this be of interest? I don't think I'd care much about PA, MA or RI, though it'd be hard to figure where to cut it off -- hence the NYC commuter definition.
(I guess my interest in subways extends to commuter rail but not all the way up to national rail.)
That said, your point about saying where the tracks go is a good one. And I think some of the history of ownership has to be associated with trackage, since so much is now owned by consolidated roads like CSX.
Any volunteers? [grin]
Gentlemen: a rail map such as you are proposing already exists (or existed). I bought a 'New York Railway Map' at an ERA meeting a few months back. The map includes subway, LIRR, MetroNorth, Path, some NJT and even SBK. The map is all black & white, but is double-sided. On the reverse is an NYC Subway map that is railfan friendly (i.e., it shows each INDIVIDUAL track on the system including most of the major NYCT yard tracks).
The map was printed on good quality glossy paper stock, and cost around $5.00. Funny thing about the map was that it was produced in England.
Pertinent info: The Quail Map Company, 31 Lincoln Rd., Exter GB, ISBN 0900609 96 6
Doug aka BMTman
I bought a 'New York Railway Map' at an ERA meeting a few months back ... printed on good quality glossy paper stock, and cost around $5.00. Funny thing about the map was that it was produced in England.
Pertinent info: The Quail Map Company, 31 Lincoln Rd., Exter GB, ISBN 0900609 96 6
Doug: Thanks!
Searching www.amazon.co.uk by ISBN produces only a message that they expect that they can obtain the "book" in 4-6 weeks, for a mere 1.70 pounds. However, the copyright is 1993 -- did you find any anachronisms?
Anyone got any online sources for ordering this one? For $5 + S&H, I'll take it sight unseen!
Yeah, that's it. Mine is dated 1993 as well. The only thing I noticed that is was the listing of SBK trackage along McDonald Ave. (which was outdated even when this map came out). I can excuse that detail since the authors are overseas based and getting verification of the existance of a small line like that would not be an easy task (after all, there are probably some folks in Brooklyn that are not aware that SBK no longer runs down McDonald Ave.)
Doug aka BMTman
The thing is, most of us know where the subway and commuter railroad are. Fewer of us know where the active freight railroads are. Fewer still know where they used to be, and which of those have a ROW that is more or less intact.
That's what I'd like to see. It would help to explain pre-auto development patterns, and could be used to anticipate possible re-starts of service.
The thing is, most of us know where the subway and commuter railroad are. Fewer of us know where the active freight railroads are. Fewer still know where they used to be, and which of those have a ROW that is more or less intact.
Oh, in my fantasy book, I intended to put in any piece of track that carries trains: subways + commuter RRs + freight RRs + LRTs + AirTrain + .... It's just an issue of how widely the circle from GCT gets drawn. Like I said, MA and RI don't do much for me personally.
And I gotta think the NYC metro area has quite enough track to make such a book interesting. How about you?
The North Shore Line only goes along the waterfront until just East of Port Richmond, at which point it crosses to the south of Richmond Terrace and ends up in a cut that runs until just East of the freight yard. Do you suppose that NJT might be interested in running LRV service over the rail bridge and along the North Shore to St. George? MTA sure doesn't seem to want to do anything with it. Taking a bus the length of Richmond Terrace makes as much sense as taking a bus from St. George to Tottenville.
For a look at what the Van Cortlandt Park leg of the Putnam looks like today, check this page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Putnam%20Branch%20page/putnam.html
Kevin Walsh
The northshore part of the SIR is not abandoned, I believe there was a filing for abandonement awhile back but the FRA/DOT(? or is it Interstate Commisson) has not ruled on it.
Operations of the SIR would be hampererd if the line was officaly abandoned, the only place to turn SIR trains is the wye that is located on the old B&O part of the St. George Ferry Terminal that is part of the north shore line.
This is also the location for Rudy's new Minor League Baseball Stadium now at over $70 Million.
Why do you need a wye? What benefit is received when you turn a subway train? Aren't there cabs at both ends?
SIR uses modified R44 cars but the R44's are made up of A and B cards. A cars have cabs on one end, B cars are cabless. SIR has run different configerations of the cars. A_A, A_A_B_A, A_B_B_A. I forget exactly how many A cars and how many B cars there are. If an A car goes down on the St. George End and the replacement is facing to Tottenville, they use the Wye to turn the car around.
If SIR had cars with cabs at both ends, then you wouldn't need a wye, but in a closed system you should have some ability to turn the facing of a car (even now revenue).
Just got back from a Bar Mitzvah where I took the Red line from White Flint to Friendship Heights. Two things happened. First, the train went 77 MPH just after entering the tunnel after coming off the bridge over MD 355 and the beltway. Last time I checked, trains can only go 75 there or if there were no restrictions on speed, anywhere. This site says 85 is the maximum (Wayne, you may want to check up on that) but Metro says it is 75 and we were going 77. I think it may have been that we gained some speed on the downgrade from the bridge but I am not sure. On the WMATA part of the site, it says the fastest they saw a train go was 79 in a similar sintuation (the downgrade from the bridge through the RFK parking lot between Stadium-Armory and Benning Road).
Second, the next Metro line may NOT be purple!!! The operator had 2 signs used in the front of the train covering the vent in the cab: The blue line sign and a white sign with black lettering reading "WHITE". He had no clue what it was for. Any ideas? To my knowledge, there is no purple sign, so we may see a white line before purple. I am guessing this is the back of the green sign.
1. Metro cars are mechanically capable of doing 85 but are restricted to 75MPH, and that only in certain situations. They can top 75MPH with the help of a downgrade.
2. Maybe WHITE is what they plan to call the Tyson's Corner line.
PS I got SNEAK PEEK pictures of the Green Line extension to Branch Avenue, taken earlier in the year. I am awaiting permission from the photographer to post them. Congress Heights is ARCH II, the six-coffer variety, high, and very round, much like Mt.Vernon Square-UDC. If this is where they were at in March, they may have made progress since then - some of these stations look like they only need finishing touches.
Wayne
I have the old Metro magazines and they say the maximum is 75, as well as some other literature I have read. The Metro is not faster than the BART which goes 85 under the bay.
I want to take the 5 train from GCT to Atlantic avenue this week. I am aware the 5 train does terminate at Bowling Green at non-rush hour times. I plan on doing this in the AM rush and want to know the latest I can get a 5 train to Brooklyn. I don't want to take the 4 because those are not Redbirds and don't have a good front window.
I am especially curious as to how the 4/5 East River tunnels to Brooklyn are (speed and appearance wise) since they look quite long.
Anyone have any opnions on how the ride from Manhattan to Atlantic avenue is on the east side IRT?
The only way is the 4 or transfer to the 2-3
5 trains can go into brooklyn as late as 9:30- 10:00 am during the week. That's because they are being sent to the the Livonia Av yard until the afternoon rush hour. After 10 am all 4 train, and according to MTA's website, they should only be going as far as Atlantic Av. Of course during the rush hour you would have a better chance of getting a railfan window on the #4.
The speeds achieved by the 4/5 b/t brooklyn and manhattan is amazing.
Many times I nearly fall off my seat. And, if I wasn't sitting down, my whole body will be rocking to the vibration of the train.
By the way, one day someone happened to be riding in between the cars. I swared that person wasn't going to make it (falling between those cars). THAT TRAIN WAS SO FREAKING Faaaassssstttt!!! But to my satisfaction, after the train stop I look to see if that person was still there. Yes she was; not feeling if she almost lost her life. As a matter of fact, her expression was "What's the BIG deal." Or, "I rided between the cars before when the train was doing twice the speed!"
A far outcry with the
N Broadway Local
b/t man/bklyn
[By the way, one day someone happened to be riding in between the cars. I swared that person wasn't going to make it (falling between those cars). THAT TRAIN WAS SO FREAKING Faaaassssstttt!!! But to my satisfaction, after the train stop I look to see if that person was still there. Yes she was; not feeling if she almost lost her life. As a matter of fact, her expression was "What's the BIG deal." Or, "I rided between the cars before when the train was doing twice the speed!"]
I almost got thrown from between the cars when I was a kid. We were going over the switches at 242nd Street, and the operator didn't wait for the rear cars to pass before accelerating.
Since then, I've never failed to hold onto a handle when walking through.
The ride through the Joralemon St (4/5) tubes sounds really nice. It looks like a long tunnel too. I know Montague st and Clark street tubes are also long, but the trains crawl in Montague.
Originally I was going to Atlantic avenue to transfer to a Manhattan bound D or Q, but I might like the ride so much I'll just hop on a 4/5 Manhattan bound and go through the tubes again.
I just love the sound of a train speeding though the tunnel and vibrating. Unfortunately trains like the R68 (Hippo) are so slow and feel as if they are lumbering through. Whenever I get those things on the N, it seems to take twice as long going though the 60th street tube than an R32 or Slant R40.
I have seen the R-62s get up to 50 mph in the Joralemon St. tunnel. There are a handful of Redbirds on the 4; in fact, I caught one such train in October from Bowling Green to Borough Hall. Unfortunately, it didn't set any speed records. Looking back, I should have stayed on board to Atlantic Ave. I could have checked out the old LIRR connection.
Other posters have indicated the R-68s initially build up a good head of steam in the 60th St. tunnel; however, they end up huffing and puffing on the upgrades. It's the same as trying to climb a steep hill in fifth gear with a 5-speed. The BMT standards behaved the same way in the 14th St. tunnel. They would be really moving along at the lowest point in the tunnel, but would lose speed on the upgrade, the bull and pinion gear pitch dropping lower and lower, finally getting as low as B below middle C.
At least by the time most of us remember the Standards on the LL, they had an excuse for their slowness -- they were all at least 40 to 45 years old. Try to imagine an R-68 climbing the 60th Street tunnel in 2027.
At least by the time most of us remember the Standards on the LL, they had an excuse for their slowness -- they were all at least 40 to 45 years old. Try to imagine an R-68 climbing the 60th Street tunnel in 2027.
Do you really think the R-68's are going to be around in 2027?
I do. They are quite reliable, and have benefitted by having preventative maintenance performed on them from the first day they were delivered. Deferred maintenance has shortened the life of many a subway car, most notably the R16 and the R21/22, both of which never saw their 35th birthdays.
With the current maintenance program, possibly. Of course, with their current horsepower situation, they may all be stuck at the bottom of the 60th Street tunnel by then...
The BMT standards didn't give me the impression of being slow. Their acceleration wasn't bad. The ones which lasted through the 1960s were rebuilt in 1959-60. There is a blurb in Subway Cars of the BMT or possibly Gene Sansone's book which states that some modification was done to increase motor power, althought it doesn't elaborate. Field shunting, perhaps?!?
Two other factors need to be taken into account: the BMT standards were heavy (95,000-99,000 lbs). Only the Triplexes were heavier. Plus, they had two motors per car, one on each truck.
Four words come to mind when trying to picture an R-68 in 2027: everybody out and push!
Yesterday I was able to take a southbound 5, which was a Redbird, to Atlantic avenue. The Joralemon street tube was very fast, and with the gentle curve the train had a real "rhythym" going through the tunnel.
The tunnel also had flourescent lighting, and seemed quite a bit more spacious than some of the other IRT tunnels.
There was also a sign by the signal at Whitehall that said "Joralemon street tube".
It was a very nice tunnel, coupled with the modern lighting and it being the longest in the system (?), plus the speed of the train in the tunnel was really nice. Funny though, on the return trip I had an R62 on the 4 but it was not as fast as the Redbirds.
This was at rush hour when more trains were present, I imagine the trains go even faster there at off-hours when less trains are in the tubes.
caught a ride in a redbird on a #5 recently, and happened to look over the conductor's shoulder in the tunnel (bklyn bound) -- saw the numbers '49' for a good solid ten seconds. man was he flyin'...
Well I guess as long as I get to GCT by 9am I should be able to catch a Redbird through the 4/5 tubes.
It should take no more than 25-30 minutes to go from Grand Central to Atlantic on the #4.
By the way, during the Rush Hours, and also during the day, they DO run R33 Redbirds on the #4 Line - #9222 - 9305.
Wayne
I want to look out the railfan window, that's why I want to ride a Redbird. I know some of the newer IRT trains (R62's) have front windows but more often they do not, especially the R62's on the 4 line.
What I meant was - during the rush hour and the mid-day, you have at least a chance of getting a real Redbird on the #4 itself.
If you go for the #5, you have a 95% chance of Redbird - there are two R62A's from Pelham about.
Last #5's run to Brooklyn about 9:30-10:00AM, some of them terminate at Atlantic.
Wayne
"I am especially curious as to how the 4/5 East River tunnels to Brooklyn are (speed and appearance wise) since they look quite long."
Length of tunnel between bklyn and man has nothing to do with speed. Since, the M/N/R lines tunnel length comes in second place with a fraction of the speed achieved on the 4/5. Actually, speeds on these lines (M/N/R) are the slowest in the system b/t bklyn and man.
N Broadway Local
[Length of tunnel between bklyn and man has nothing to do with speed. Since, the M/N/R lines tunnel length comes in second place with a fraction of the speed achieved on the 4/5. Actually, speeds on these lines (M/N/R) are the slowest in the system b/t bklyn and man.]
Yeah, it's really sad. The trains literally creep.
That is a shame, I remember the BMT Tunnel used to be so fast on the old Standards
[That is a shame, I remember the BMT Tunnel used to be so fast on the old Standards]
I'm still not sure why it's slowed down so much.
Speed in under-river tubes has greatly to do with the steepness of the grade. The grade in the 60th St. tube is extremely steep.
Steinway tubes also have a steep grade, but, the 7 trains don't go quite as fast there due to heavy use of GT's and WD's.
60th street is very fast, but not so fast with those Hippo trains (R68's).
Whenever I've been through Montague tubes I've always crept, but I've always had an R68 train. Do the R32's achieve any faster speeds in there?
When I go to Sunset Park (Brooklyn) I usually take the N all the way, or the D or Q then change to an N at Dekalb. But since it's very slow around Dekalb, plus a slow bridge ride or a long and slow ride through the Montague tubes it can sometimes take awhile. I wonder if taking the 4/5 to Atlantic then tranfering to the N at Dekalb is a better option since the N usually south of Dekalb (express tracks) is pretty fast.
I've never been to Atlantic avenue and trasfered to Dekalb, is it a long passageway, is it safe?
" I wonder if taking the 4/5 to Atlantic then tranfering to the N at Dekalb is a better option since the N usually south of
Dekalb (express tracks) is pretty fast.
I've never been to Atlantic avenue and trasfered to Dekalb, is it a long passageway, is it safe? "
I meant Pacific street, not Dekalb ave. Besides, I see that there is a transfer to the N from the IRT at Court street. Is that any better?
"I meant Pacific street, not Dekalb ave. Besides, I see that there is a transfer to the N from the IRT at Court street. Is that any better?"
That's a pretty long transfer too (court street). You will be better off transfering at Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street, because, the N has to negotiate several curves before Pacific Street.
What amazes me about the curves after dekalb avenue, is that, if you look at a map you will think it will be only one. However, it appears to be over 3.
The D is even more fascinating because from dekalb, it looks like a straight route into Atlantic. However, I counted over 2 curves there, and they are really loud ones.
As for the 4, those trains don't move as slow around the curve as the bmt trains do. So, your best bet is the #4.
N Broadway Line
Don't foget all the lovely Grade Timers added between Dekalb and Atlantic Ave (okay one is in the station itself). One derailment leaving Dekalb and we have 3 grade timers , shhesshseesh.
What REALLY annoys the p*** out of me is GT #409, southbound out of 7th Avenue on the way to Prospect Park, in the perfect spot to ruin a nice 40+MPH run. Why it is there is a mystery to me. It's a straightaway.
Wayne
It might be a straightaway, but the track is on a grade isn't it (that is coming up to Prospect Park from 7th Ave)?
-Stef
Yes...an UP grade! As I understand it, these timers are successors to timers that were put there many years ago, so that a train coming into Prospect Park from Seventh Avenue would not overrun the Prospect park station and foul (get in the way of) a Franklin Avenue Shuttle train moving from the southbound shuttle track to the northbound shuttle track. When was the last time you saw a shuttle train make such a move?
BTW, these timers are GT40/ST20, and most Train Operators slow down to 25 mph or less through this area. The timers clear to green long before the train reaches them.
David
[It might be a straightaway, but the track is on a grade isn't it (that is coming up to Prospect Park from 7th Ave)?]
Right. It's been many years since the FS has had to do moves south of Prospect Pk to get back to Franklin. If you have a switch between Botanic Gardens and Prospect Pk, why bother to foul up the local and express tracks outside of the station and holding up the Brighton local and express trains?
-Stef
As long as we are discussing the Franklin Shuttle, I'd like to make a modest service change proposal: During the PM rush (4 PM to 7 PM), wouldn't it be more convienent for passangers if the shuttle used the downtown platform at Prospect Park to terminate, thus making a cross-platform transfer from inbound D/Q trains possible?
As long as we are discussing the Franklin Shuttle, I'd like to make a modest service change proposal: During the PM rush (4 PM to 7 PM), wouldn't it be more convienent for passangers if the shuttle used the downtown platform at Prospect Park to terminate, thus making a cross-platform transfer from inbound D/Q trains possible?
I think they want to keep revenue service trains off the deadly Malbone St. curve.
The southbound platform has been used by the shuttle in the recent past. So it can't be that dangerous.
Yeah...I remember the first time I rode the shuttle, back in 1985. I was not at the railfan window, so I had no warning. When the train hit that crazy S-curve I nearly fell off the longitudinal seat.
Especially with a strike coming up!!!
Despite its deadly history, the reverse curve on the southbound Shuttle north of Prospect Park isn't much tighter than other curves in the BMT division. All that needs to be done is to treat it with the respect it warrants, as is done all over the BMT. It's on a par with the curve on the N/R between Whitehall Street and Rector Street -OR- on the n/b J/M/Z south of Chambers Street; perhaps the turning radius of the 80-degree section is a bit more severe.
Wayne
Despite its deadly history, the reverse curve on the southbound Shuttle north of Prospect Park isn't much tighter than other curves in the BMT division. All that needs to be done is to treat it with the respect it warrants, as is done all over the BMT. It's on a par with the curve on the N/R between Whitehall Street and Rector Street -OR- on the n/b J/M/Z south of Chambers Street; perhaps the turning radius of the 80-degree section is a bit more severe.
You might be right about that, but the Malbone St. curve carries the stigma of the horrible wreck that occurred there in 1918. As much as New York tried to forget the Malbone St. wreck, as demonstrated by renaming Malbone St. to Empire Blvd., the skeleton came out of the closet when an R-32 on the Franklin Shuttle, diverted to the SB track at Prospect Park due to track work derailed in exactly the same spot in 1974. That incident in 1974 was widely publicized. The R-32 sustained some damage. I don't know if the car was ever repaired and returned to service, or scrapped. The Wrecked/Scrapped Cars page on nycsubway.org indicates that the mishap occurred in 1972. That is incorrect. It occurred in 1974.
They could, but they don't need a bottleneck at Prospect Park between the locals, expresses, and shuttle trains. Place an additional crossover between the Park and Eastern Parkway, and this might be possible, unless someone suggests running the train to Coney Island which can't be done. 2 Car shuttles don't run all the way to Coney Island...
-Stef
I don't propose turning the shuttle trains around south of Prospect Pk. I propose just having the shuttle use the southbound platform during rush hours. the shuttle would still use the crossover just north of Prospect Pk.
It's not entirely a straightaway. It does have a mild curve.
Ride the northbound side. There's a curve.
Overkill, indeed. Overreaction, most likely.
There's the real tight curve from Flatbush into Fulton, that's at the south end of De Kalb. Then there's a little switch-out, followed by another really tight curve, going from Fulton onto Saint Felix Street. Atlantic Avenue station follows. It's not under Flatbush Avenue, rather it's sort of just east of it, following the line of Saint Felix. Then there's a third curve south of Atlantic, where it rejoins Flatbush Avenue. Ingenious track layout, for sure.
Wayne
Like the Vesey St. curve south of City Hall, the contortions of the Brighton line between DeKalb and Atlantic were forced on the BMT by the IRT's having secured the straighter route (Fulton directly onto Flatbush) first. How exactly does the curve from the Flatbush Extension onto Fulton St. avoid that IRT line, anyway? Does it pass under the corner property?
The N is so slow because it has too many sharp curves. The worst in the system being b/t Cortlandt Street and City hall (it really must has taken a lot of intelligent engineering to pull this one off; especially 75 foot cars)whereas the train turns right and left at the same point. Only the 5 b/t 138th St. and 149th Street might be worst (since they use shorter cars).
Although we are one of the slowest lines in the city, what we have over the other lines is:
1) connections to other lines are easiest
2) goes to the most attractions
3) serves the heart of three business districts (Midtown, Financial, and downtown bklyn).
That's why many people choose us (N R) as their transporation designation.
N Broadway Local
The Vescey Street turn had to go there because the BMT wanted a City Hall Station, and the IRT had first dibs on Broadway south of Vescey Street for the Contract 2 line. The BMT line had to move over to Church Street, creating the sharp `S' curve.
J Lee,
Doesn't the A, C, and E run on Church Street too?
"The Vescey Street turn had to go there because the BMT wanted a City Hall Station, and the IRT had first dibs on Broadway south of Vescey Street for theContract 2 line. The BMT line had to move over to Church Street, creating the sharp `S' curve."
These were competing companies at the time they were built, Right? I guess that explains the arraignment.
It would've made better since for the lines to share the same route after the city hall station - increasing the speed on the N/R lines.
N Broadway Local
The E stops right at Church and Vescey, on the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site. The A drops down below the N/R tracks and runs beneath it for about half a block, then turns east on Fulton Street (by the time the IND was built there were NO streets south of Fulton that the A train could continue towards South Ferry on, without going either all the way west to Washington Street or all the way east to Pearl, which is why any future southbound extension of the E from WTC would be unbelievable difficult.)
"(by the time the IND was built there were NO streets south of Fulton that the A train could continue towards South Ferry on, without going either all the way west to Washington Street or all the way east to Pearl, which is why any future southbound extension of the E from
WTC would be unbelievable difficult.)"
Is it possible to connect the E with the N/R Lines?
N Broadway Line
It would be virtually impossible using a flyover crossing, which is what I would assume the MTA would demand nowadays. You could connect the downtown tracks pretty easily with just a little zig-zag extension (provided you completely redid the control access area for the E and created an underpass access platform like at Penn Station) but connecting the uptown tracks would require a sharp drop under the tracks and then a quick rise to avoid the A tunnel turning onto Fulton.
It would be easier (but not easy) to connect N/R from the lower level at City Hall with the A by turning it eastbound on Ann Street. From there, it could link up with the Fulton/Cranberry tunnel, since Ann and Fulton Street merge just past William Street. But you would still have to dig under the 4/5 Lex, J/M/Z Nassau Street and 2/3 William Street lined to do it.
"It would be easier (but not easy) to connect N/R from the lower level at City Hall with the A by turning it eastbound on Ann
Street."
You mean the City Hall tracks don't continue to whitehall street? They just dead end at City Hall? Whoa! All this time I thought those tracks continued all the way to whitehall street.
This brings me to discussing the Manhattan Bridge. I notice a drop in the track bed around prince street. It looked like the express tracks fed into city hall station before the Manhattan bridge tracks were built.
Couldn't the MTA do one or two things:
1) swing the local tracks to allow room for the extra track bed to be built to City hall, or,
2) rebuild those tracks to it's orignal plan (going to city instead of canal street lower level.
This will give express customers two options, or, a better option.
Since you metioned it earlier; that's of course if those express tracks don't continue to whitehall street, is it really possible to connect these tracks to the A/C lines. I know that tunnel is under capacity.
Back to the Manhattan bridge tracks. I know traffic will be delay for sometime, however, wouldn't it be better to put the tracks in the middle of the bridge?
My plan would be to build three tracks in the middle. The B could use the middle track during the peak direction, while the D/Q use the local tracks. Moreover, the MTA could bring the N back to the Manhattan Bridge. It too could use the middle track in the peak direction skipping dekalb avenue as well.
This plan will benefit everyone. First, it will reduce the amount of strain on one/both sides of the bridge. And last, increase capacity for vehicle traffic traveling to/from Manhattan.
"It would be easier (but not easy) to connect N/R from the lower level at City Hall with the A by turning it eastbound on Ann
Street. From there, it could link up with the Fulton/Cranberry tunnel, since Ann and Fulton Street merge just past William
Street. But you would still have to dig under the 4/5 Lex, J/M/Z Nassau Street and 2/3 William Street lined to do it."
And where will the N or R use as a terminal? I don't know if that will work unless they created another line just for this task.
N Broadway Local
what bridge does the Q TRAIN cross now ??
The Canal Street tracks off the bridge were originally designed to continue past Broadway along Canal towards the west side. When the BMT's plans changed, the express tracks were dropped to the Canal Station (another sharp turn, BTW), leaving the express tracks on the upper level high and dry.
If they ever did decide the Manny B was not worth saving, the only reason for hooking the lower level up with the A would be to use the Fulton-Cranberry tunnel to get to Brooklyn. Another connector would have to be built on the Brooklyn side to hook it back in with the BMT Southern Division.
However, with all the tracks that it would have to cross, plus the MTA's prefrence for the Sxith Ave. line over the Broadway line, they'd be more likely to hook the Rutgers tunnel into the DeKalb connection, so the B and D could get into Manhattan.
As far as the bridge goes. I would remove the outer track on both sides of the bridge, build a flying junction on the Manhattan side to connect with Sixth and Broadway and run Brooklyn-bound trains on the southwest side of the bridge and trains to Manhattan on the northeast side. That way, both sides would get equal traffic each day, which should lower the torque on the suspension.
This doesn't do anything for getting hte N back on the express track, but at least the Q could resume running as the Broadway express, the way God meant it to be.
If your going to spend money on that, why not just build a tunnel to replace the tracks? At least 2 tunnels for the 6th Ave. line. The center of the Manny B can be outfitted with 2 tracks for the Broadway line, and the 2 outer trackways can be used for cars. With the tracks in the center, the mechanical problems associated with this bridge and having trains run over it are mostly solved.
I don't mind the sharp curves at all. The ones north of Cortlandt are the best. Slant R40s make some incredible noise in there. I remember "N"s #4370-4371 last May (which I just saw on the Ch.4 News) on one trip - they sang an aria while weaving their slanted noses through the serpentine. The turn entering Rector Street from Whitehall is very tight as well.
As for the Mott Avenue Jughandle - I wonder if they have track sprayers in there. The last few Redbirds I rode there were surprisingly quiet, despite the N/B curve's 125-degree angle and very tight radius (must be no more than a couple hundred feet). The S/B curve has a steeper angle (130 degrees) but a much wider radius.
Wayne
I have never seen a track sprayer over at Mott Avenue, but it's always a possibility, don't you think?
-Stef
While that might be the tightest curve in the system, it isn't the loudest. That honor goes to the curve just north of East Tremont Ave. Although today it somewhat quieter, that curve still makes a noise heard all the way into the Bronx Zoo. As a kid, in the late 70's/early 80's, it was 10 times worse. I could hear IRT trains making that curve while riding the African monorail! God help those who lived right there.
What do you do to cut that noise? Grease the rails on the el?
-Stef
I think everything that can be done has been done. The ideal solution is to tear down that curve and replace it with one that's less severe. Chances of happening: 0%
Inbetween the time the train turns left to right, they must be a very big opening. Still, I don't know how they manage to fit the R68/46's in there. That's really tight! No wonder those trains really crawl through there.
I think the south bound from City Hall is worst than the north bound from Cortlandt Street.
It appears to be some relief (straight track) before you get to the City Hall. But with the southbound, nothing at all. Just a lot of curves and noise.
"As for the Mott Avenue Jughandle - I wonder if they have track sprayers in there. The last few Redbirds I rode there were
surprisingly quiet, despite the N/B curve's 125-degree angle and very tight radius (must be no more than a couple hundred
feet). The S/B curve has a steeper angle (130 degrees) but a much wider radius."
I still think the #5 has that sharpest curve in the system. I'm taking about the one b/t 138th Street and 149th Street. THAT BABY REALLY MAKES SOME NOISE!
I always thought the route the #5 took from 138th Street and 149th Street is strange. How does it get underneath the #4? I'm lost.
Meanwhile the 4 is a straight route into that same station (149th Street). Unbelievable indeed.
N Broadway Local
Inbetween the time the train turns left to right, they must be a very big opening. Still, I don't know how they manage to fit the R68/46's in there. That's really tight! No wonder those trains really crawl through there.
That stretch of track was origionally designed for the 67' Standards. The 46/68's are only 8' longer. Before the 75' cars entered the system (R-44's), a 75' clearance train (an R-1/9) extended to 75' with feelers was tested throughout the B-Division. Any tunnel walls that needed to be shaved to fit 75' cars were shaved. To my knowledge, the only part of the B-Division that won't handle 75' cars is the Jamaica El, with its curves at Crescent St. and Cypress Hills.
Also the curves at Myrtle Ave make 75' cars on the M line an impossibility as well.
Also the curves at Myrtle Ave make 75' cars on the M line an impossibility as well
Not So!
In 1976, the ERA Convention was held in NYC. On 7/4/1976, a fan trip was held using the D-Type, the museum R-1/9 and an R-46. I took these pix of the R-46 at Wycoff Ave. and Fresh Pond Road on the Myrtle Ave. Line.
BTW, these photos and scans are ©Copyright protected and may not be reused or republished without written permission from the author.
Duly noted! HOWEVER - They may be able to get ONE R-46 (or other 75-foot beast) up the Myrtle Avenue curve, but could they get TWO of them side-by-side without sideswiping each other?
Maybe "THERE'S THE RUB" :o)
PS - Love those 1917 Platform lamps! Too bad they're almost gone. Only good set left is at Atlantic on the Canarsee Lyne and even THEIR days may be numbered. There's a couple left at Eastern Parkway and also at the end of 111th Street on the "J".
Wayne
Duly noted! HOWEVER - They may be able to get ONE R-46 (or other 75-foot beast) up the Myrtle Avenue curve, but could they get TWO of them side-by-side without sideswiping each other?
That's a very good point. I don't know if that's ever been tried and tested. One thing is for certain - there is no question about the 67' A/B's. They ran on Myrtle/Chambers, Jamaica Ave., 14th St.-Canarsie. they have been tried, tested and proven. I don't know why they had to go to 75' cars anyway. Do you know how much gouging and chisling they had to do throughout the tunnels of the B-Division just to make those suckers fit! sixty-seven feet is long enough. This is rapid transit, not a railroad.
Hey, could you imagine the R-44/46's being 67' instead of 75'. Also, if they were laid out exactly like the A/B's - 3 sets of wide double doors with the separator in the middle, seats laid out just like the A/B's seating 3 across, and railfan windows in front. As modern A/B's, they would be stainless steel outside, same plastic walls with the City and State logos, and the same molded seats inside, with air conditioning. Better yet, instead of sporting the blue stripe that they had in the '70s, have a green stripe instead, with the BMT logo instead of the MTA logo. I'm a HARD-CORE BMT FAN.
And with the little window on the motorman's cab and ceiling fans of course!!
I have one which I "acquired" (stole) from the old Queens Blvd BMT station. And no, it's not for sale. LOL
Just like the cane seat I stole acquired from a Myrtle "Q" car on its last day of operation in '69.
Also the curves at Myrtle Ave make 75' cars on the M line an impossibility as well
Not So!
In 1976, the ERA Convention was held in NYC. On 7/4/1976, a fan trip was held using the D-Type, the museum R-1/9 and an R-46. I took these pix of the R-46 at Wycoff Ave. and Fresh Pond Road on the Myrtle Ave. Line.
BTW, these photos and scans are ©Copyright protected and may not be reused or republished without written permission from the author.
If those curves can handle 75' cars, then why can't the curves near Crescent? I don't think the Myrtle Ave curves can handle 75' cars on a regular basis. I think that what you described was a special occasion.
If those curves can handle 75' cars, then why can't the curves near Crescent? I don't think the Myrtle Ave curves can handle 75' cars on a regular basis. I think that what you described was a special occasion.
True, but on that "special occasion", we didn't take the R-46 up on Jamaica Ave. It was already known in 1976, that the days were numbered for the outer portion of the Jamaica El. The El was painted in 1974, right up to the amputation point at 127th St. It would have been more appropriate to go to 168th St. on that 7/4/1976 trip. Evidently, 75-footers can't take the Crescent St. curve. I guess 67' for that curve is the limit. I know that the el at the Crescent St. curve comes very close to a building on the corner. It is my belief that if a 75-footer can handle Myrtle for a special occasion, it is safe enough to run there regularly. Could you imagine the consequences of that fan trip train falling to the street! The TA wouldn't have allowed it if it wasn't safe; which is probably why the R-46 didn't go to 168th St. that day. A 75-footer would probably graze that very close building while trying to negotiate the Crescent St. curve. If I am wrong; if anyone can document that a train of 75' cars did go up Jamaica Ave., please let us all know.
The 75-foot cars more than likely COULD handle Cypress Hill's 85-degree curve, since there is a gap between the two sets of tracks, where a third track would have gone. Crescent Street? Outbound - MAYBE, since it's on the outside of the curve, and therefore has a greater turning radius than the Inbound. Any 75-footer trying to negotiate THAT one might just swipe the building next to the tracks - or the radius may be just too small to permit it to turn safely. All cars have a minimum turning radius. It's about 120-150 feet for 60-foot cars, a bit less for 51-footers, a bit more for 67-footers, still more for 75-footers.
Wayne
"67-footers"
I didn't know they had 67 footers cars. Which ones are those? I thought all of them were 60 footers E, C, A (32/38 series), J, M, Q (40/42 series).
Oh my god, don't tell me I missed it. Pleaseeeee....
If that's true, someone is running 9 cars, because, I think, 10 67 foot cars will be too big for a 60/10 car station.
N Broadway Local
And I thought I master the train system until now.
The old standards were 67 feet
"67-footers"
I didn't know they had 67 footers cars. Which ones are those? I thought all of them were 60 footers E, C, A (32/38 series), J, M, Q (40/42 series).
Oh my god, don't tell me I missed it. Pleaseeeee....
If that's true, someone is running 9 cars, because, I think, 10 67 foot cars will be too big for a 60/10 car station.
N Broadway Local
And I thought I master the train system until now.
The first BMT steel cars used for the BMT Subway, the BMT Standards, or A/B's were 67' long. They ran from 1914 until the last ones were retired in 1969. See the subway car in my graphic below? That's a BMT Standard. There were no 60' cars until the IND came out with the R-1's in 1930, which were used on the BMT for 2 years until the IND opened in 1932.
A group of R-1s ran on the Sea Beach line in 1931 for testing purposes. They were even equipped with BMT route and destination signs. Before the year was out, they were returned to the IND, even though the first portion didn't open until Sept. 10, 1932.
A group of R-1s ran on the Sea Beach line in 1931 for testing purposes. They were even equipped with BMT route and destination signs. Before the year was out, they were returned to the IND, even though the first portion didn't open until Sept. 10, 1932
I always thought that the R-1's were loaned to the BMT and ran in regular service on the BMT before the IND opened.
Didnt someone post a few months ago about the BMT wanting to buy R-1 subway cars for it's own use, but was unable to because the city threatened to cancel it's existing contract for the IND R1's if they sold cars to the competing BMT lines?
Didnt someone post a few months ago about the BMT wanting to buy R-1 subway cars for it's own use, but was unable to because the city threatened to cancel it's existing contract for the IND R1's if they sold cars to the competing BMT lines?
I don't remember reading anything like that. Besides, the BMT was too advanced to put an order in for such antiquated equipment like the R-1's. Look at the Multi's, Green Hornet and Zephyr that they came out with in the 1930's; and ultimately, the Bluebird in 1940. The city was still taking delivery on the R-9's in 1940, when the Bluebirds came in. Check some of the facts at http://bmt-lines.com/ This is not my site, by the way. While on the BMT site, click on "History", and read about BMT rolling stock.
Fom what I remember (and it's a bit fuzzy) the BMT was strapped for cash and had a serious steel car shortage in the early 30's. It wanted to buy a number of R1 type cars because it would be a lot cheaper to do that then to have to draw up a new design for a new car and outfit a factory to produce them. But the city threatened to cancel it's much bigger contract with the builder of the R1 (ACF?), so they refused to sell any to the BMT.
Fom what I remember (and it's a bit fuzzy) the BMT was strapped for cash and had a serious steel car shortage in the early 30's. It wanted to buy a number of R1 type cars because it would be a lot cheaper to do that then to have to draw up a new design for a new car and outfit a factory to produce them. But the city threatened to cancel it's much bigger contract with the builder of the R1 (ACF?), so they refused to sell any to the BMT.
If you come up with any definite substantiated facts on this, then let us all know, because I never heard of this before. But, I'm always interested in learning facts that I didn't know before. As for a shortage of steel cars in the early 1930's, isn't that what the Multi's were supposed to alleviate? They arrived in 1934. It would make no sense ordering R-1's if the Multi's were coming. Its ironic, how the BMT took delivery of 6 Bluebird units, had another 50 on order, but the City cancelled that order when they took possession of the BMT in June, 1940. In 1940, the IND was still taking delivery of R-9's, while the BMT waas taking delivery on its far-advanced Bluebirds. Same time period, but the Bluebirds are to the R-9's what the Modern Era is to the Middle Ages. All BMT cars were advanced for their time. The Standards, the Triplex's, the Multi's, the Green Hornet, the Zephyr and the Bluebirds. If the BMT were still in business today, I think we would all be shocked at what we would see in service today, if they had the Bluebirds as early as 1938.
IIRC, the Multi's were ordered after they attempted to buy some R1 cars from ACF. The BMT wanted to buy an already designed car because it would save money, which the cash strapped BMT was a bit short on during the Depression.
Looks like the city used it's influence to speed up the eventual demise of a private BMT system.
I wish the person who posted on this earlier would repost the specifics again.
IIRC, the Multi's were ordered after they attempted to buy some R1 cars from ACF. The BMT wanted to buy an already designed car because it would save money, which the cash strapped BMT was a bit short on during the Depression.
Looks like the city used it's influence to speed up the eventual demise of a private BMT system.
I wish the person who posted on this earlier would repost the specifics again.
The City choked the BMT and IRT to death by building its competing IND, which siphoned riders off the privately-owned lines, and the bigger death blow came when the privately-owned BMT and IRT could no longer make a profit with the 5¢ fare. The kicker is that they needed approval from the City to increase the fare, which the City would not grant. Talking about forcing someone out of business! It wasn't until 1948, that the City was forced to finally hike the fare to 10¢.
Why was the R1 considered antiquated equipment when they were new? They were the first cars to have 8 doors, all double leaf. They had both front and side destination signs with 3 rollers on the side, unlike the standards 2 rollers. You could say that if it was the Low-V's they wanted to buy!
The R1 was boring, not antiquated in 1932. They would have served well on the BMT had they purchased them.
Boring? BORING!?! With the moans, groans, grunts, hisses, snarls, and throbs they emitted, plus any other sounds I forgot to mention, how can they be called boring? I loved those cars!
That's OK. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion.
Unfortunatly I never rode one. I'm just repeating what was told to me. If they sounded like the R9's did, then they certainly weren't boring.
The R1's and the R9's were basically the same.
The R1's and the R9's were basically the same.
Except for avery few minute cosmetic details, all R-1/9's were the same.
I would hardly call them boring. I am very partial toward all the pre-war equipment. SMEE equipment could never sound like AMUE equuipment. Its just that they were antiquated next to a BMT Bluebird.
Which makes me wonder, why were there so many model numbers if they were basically the same? The only differences I can remember now are those cutout niches under the door windows on the outside. Some train had em, some didn't. Another difference were the manufacturers. Anyone know any others?
Which makes me wonder, why were there so many model numbers if they were basically the same? The only differences I can remember now are those cutout niches under the door windows on the outside. Some train had em, some didn't. Another difference were the manufacturers. Anyone know any others?
Every R-number is a contract order for rolling stock. The R-1/9's were separate contract orders for basically the same car. Some of the cars were either ordered at different times or from different manufacturers. The R-1/9's were built by ACF, Pullman Standard and Pressed Steel Car Company. What seems like gaps in the numerical order for passenger equipment are orders for non-revenue (work) equipment. As for the R-1/9's, they literally are:
R-1
R-4
R-6-1
R-6-2
R-6-3
R-7
R-7A
R-9
The divider in the storm door window was on all the series except the R-1's and R-4's, which had a solid piece of glass. They also had other minute differences. The glass over the rollsigns was a sharp rectangle on the R-1's and R-4's, but it was rounded on the later cars in the series. Another difference was in the windows in the door pockets on the outside of the car. The R-1 through R-6 was the same. R-7 and R-9 were different. The fans were different in some cars, also. I don't remember which cars had which, but some were Westinghouse and some were GE, and the fans were different.
Thanks for the info. As a kid some of those little differences made me take a double take, like "I thought these cars had ...." or "I thought they were manufactured by ...". They were such small things I thought I was just wrong until the next time when the car was a little different. One question, that pump-like brake handle in the front that clanked with the car's rocking when going fast, did all of the R1-9's have them?
Thanks for the info. As a kid some of those little differences made me take a double take, like "I thought these cars had ...." or "I thought they were manufactured by ...". They were such small things I thought I was just wrong until the next time when the car was a little different. One question, that pump-like brake handle in the front that clanked with the car's rocking when going fast, did all of the R1-9's have them?
Yes, all the R-1/9's had them. The Q-Types and C-Types had the same mechanism on the outside of the cars. The wheel on the front interior of the Lo-V's were the same thing. I believe the Standards and the D-Types also had a brake handle on the interior. Even the newer R-Types had them. They look different and they are more subtle. The next time you're on a redbird, an R-32 or an R-38, go between cars and look on the right side of the next car, on the lower part of the storm door well. You will see something that looks like a lever. That lever-type started with the R-10's.
The R-6-1s had the GE fans with the pointy little noses; I believe the Pressed Steel cars had them too. All the rest were Westinghouse fans.
Wayne
The R-6-1s had the GE fans with the pointy little noses; I believe the Pressed Steel cars had them too. All the rest were Westinghouse fans.
Wayne
Are you sure it was just thr R-6-1's. I could have sworn that more of the R-1/9's had the "pointy nose" fans. I thought ti was more like half. Then again, I guess my assessment is biased, as most of the R-1/9's that I rode were the R-6's on the E, EE, F and GG.
12/12/99
Didn't the BMT Standards have those GE "pointy nose" fans too. I believe some or all of the deck roof cars had them, the rehabbed ones I remember.
Bill Newkirk
Both the R-1/9s and BMT standards moaned and groaned the same way as they accelerated. All prewar equipment did so, as a matter of fact, because spur-cut bull and pinion gears were used. Postwar equipment from the R-10s on had helical-cut bull and pinion gears, which are much quieter.
There was a subtle difference in the door sounds on the R-1s and R-4s compared to the R-7s and R-9s; unfortunately, I can't recall which category the R-6s fell into. On earlier cars, the doors made a sound similar to shaking a sheet of construction paper as they closed. On later cars, they emitted a very audible "awwwwrrrrr" sound. I can hear the difference on heypaul's tape. The CC ride (R-4s) features the former while the LL ride (R-7, R-9) is an example of the latter.
I thought all of heypaul's tape consisted of R9 sounds. Where on the tape is this R4 CC ride???
Why was the R1 considered antiquated equipment when they were new? They were the first cars to have 8 doors, all double leaf. They had both front and side destination signs with 3 rollers on the side, unlike the standards 2 rollers. You could say that if it was the Low-V's they wanted to buy!
You're comparing the R-1/9 of 1930 with the BMT Standard of 1914. I'm comparing the R-1/9 with the advanced BMT equipment of the same era. first off, except for the 8 double-leaf doors, everything you described about the R-1/9 was already accomplished with the D-Type from 1925. Fact is, many of the so called "advanced" features of the R-1/9 were copied from the D-Type. The Multi's were more advanced that the R-1/9. Look at the Zephyr in 1934! It took the TA until 1964 to use stainless steel for subway cars. The BMT Bluebird was much more far advanced than the R-1/9 in the same time period. That's why I call the R-1/9 archaic. Compared to the Multi's and Bluebirds, they were archaic. Hey, so were the 1938 World's Fair cars. They were very little improved over the Lo-V's.
Also, don't forget the six remaining 67-foot R-110B cars. They're on the C now, but if their modified to run on the L in the future with with the R-143s they would end up in the Eastern Division.
It's doubtful that the R110B would ever run with R143's, given that the R143 is only 60' long. I see the remaining R110B cars being put on the Rockaway Shuttle. They'd be absolutley perfect for the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, had the TA not been so short sighted in building the new sations to a length of only 170'.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in the other post. I just meant the trains would be adapted to work with the new signal system on the L, not that they would MU with the R-143s.
I doubt that as well, as 6 cars is a very short train, even for the L. It's already too short for the C. Look for them to be on some shuttle somewhere.
BMT Standards were 67' in length. They provided the bulk of Eastern Division subway service for nearly 50 years, into the late 60's. All BMT stations were built at lengths of 550', to accoodate 8 car trains of 67' cars (536'). In fact, if it were possible, J, M and L trains could run 9-car trains of 60 footers.
"In fact, if it were possible, J,
M and L trains could run 9-car trains of 60 footers."
So why don't they (MTA) run 9 car 60 foot J/M trains?
N Broadway Local
Because until now, all the 60 footers on the BMT-IND since the R-27 have been married pairs, requiring the trains to run in multiples of two.
They could have done in earlier with the R-7/9s and R-16s, or with the (very) occassional R-10 that snuck over to the Eastern Division, but that's about it.
A funny thing about the J line: the 2 new stations in Jamaica are also 550 feet in length, leaving open the possibility of running longer J trains in the future should it become possible.
Isn't that station length based on the 10 car E line not the 8 car J line?
N Broadway Local
No, both platforms are shorter on the "J" level.
Service patterns don't warrant it, and married-pair car types make odd-numbered train lengths impossible.
The 75-foot cars more than likely COULD handle Cypress Hill's 85-degree curve, since there is a gap between the two sets of tracks, where a third track would have gone. Crescent Street? Outbound - MAYBE, since it's on the outside of the curve, and therefore has a greater turning radius than the Inbound. Any 75-footer trying to negotiate THAT one might just swipe the building next to the tracks - or the radius may be just too small to permit it to turn safely. All cars have a minimum turning radius. It's about 120-150 feet for 60-foot cars, a bit less for 51-footers, a bit more for 67-footers, still more for 75-footers.
Wayne
You're probably right on all counts.
[The 75-foot cars more than likely COULD handle Cypress Hill's 85-degree curve, since there is a gap between the two sets of tracks, where a third track would have gone. Crescent Street? Outbound - MAYBE, since it's on the outside of the curve, and therefore has a greater turning radius than the Inbound. Any 75-footer trying to negotiate THAT one might just swipe the building next to the tracks - or the radius may be just too small to permit it to turn safely. All cars have a minimum turning radius. It's about 120-150 feet for 60-foot cars, a bit less for 51-footers, a bit more for 67-footers, still more for 75-footers.]
Which brings up a question I have--could shorter cars take the sharp turns on the N/R at a higher speed? And if so, wouldn't it make sense to use them?
NO car, 60 or 75 feet, should EVER try and negotiate curves like that at a speed greater than 10MPH. Whiplash could result, especially since all three curves (s. of Rector, n. of Cortlandt, n/b n. of City Hall) are of the dual variety.
I've been through that stretch on just about every type of B Division subway car that's ever run except for maybe the AB's, R10, R11 and R44:
D Type (1998 fantrip); R-6-3 (represents all R-1 thru R-9) (EE), R32 (N and R), R38 (EE), R40 (N), R40M (EE), R42 (RR), R46 (R), R68, R68A (N).
Wayne
"D Type (1998 fantrip); R-6-3 (represents all R-1 thru R-9) (EE), R32 (N and R), R38 (EE), R40 (N), R40M (EE), R42 (RR), R46 (R), R68, R68A (N)."
The R38's and R32's are probably the loudest through that tunnel. R46's (normally fast) suffers as bad through that same tunnel. Reason? Both trains are over 70ft. long.
N Broadway Local
I forgot to mention: R16 (EE), R27 (QT and RR) and R30 (RR) going through the BMT Tunnel route. Up until recently, the Kings of Noise were ALWAYS the R27/R30s. That crown has been snatched by none other than Slant R40 "N" #4171-4170. Went from De Kalb to 14th Street on th is one. I knew almost immediately this would be a noise-fest - we made way more noise than usual between De Kalb and Lawrence, and again between Lawrence and Court. Her wheels must have been out of round or something or maybe something was causing them to drag on the tracks. We made no more than maybe 25 or so in the Montague Tube. Anyway, when we pulled out of Cortlandt, we crept along at a feeble 5MPH (usually they go maybe 8MPH) and then there was SEVERE wheel noise, especially from under #4171's rear truck. People were holding their ears. I, being the proverbial nice guy, got up and put my head out of the "B" end storm door to listen to the din. One guy sitting by the #4 door said "What did you have to do THAT for?" - I said to him that it was music to my ears and he just shook his head.
Wayne
Yeah, I remember that they stopped painting the Jamaica Ave el at the exact spot that it was designed to connect to the new ramp down towards Archer Ave, just before the line went over the LIRR mainline. For years, you knew that once the steel supports turned from gold to green, you were in Jamaica. You would think they could have repainted it all the way to Queens Blvd (or Supthin Blvd, where the tracks terminated from 1978-90), because that ugly green paint job was in desperate need of replacing. You could see chunks of it on Jamaica Ave., probably falling off when a train roared overhead. Hope there wasn't any lead in it.
As for that Myrtle Ave. curve, I still can't see how it was able to clear those buildings so close to it. But you say they did, so they must be able.
I don't think the structure of the Jamaica El can support the 75 footers
The structure can. Some of the curves are too sharp for them.
Aren't the tight curves on the Canrasie Line also out of the question for 75 footers?
Yes, the one just east of the Graham Avenue station effectively nixes the 75-footers. It's a radius of just over 200 feet - TIGHT. PLUS - the platform lengths themselves are a mere 536 feet (give or take a few ells), too short for eight 75-footers. That's the REAL stumbling block.
Wayne
I always thought those Canarsie stations were shorter than 536 feet. That equates to an 8-car train of BMT standards. A 6-car train of standards seemed to just fit inside one of those stations, and that's all I ever saw when they were still around.
I thought the Canarsie line had it's stations built to regular BMT specs (550 feet)?
I had often wondered about this bizarre arrangement. The 2/5 line actually cuts uderneath the 4 line, and continues west. Then the 2 Lexington Ave. tracks switch off and curve almost 180 degrees, almost like making a complete U-turn, then curving south about 90 degrees when the tracks get underneath the #4 line. I always thought that a connection east of 149th-Grand Concourse would have been easier, not requiring that myriad of curves. The only logical explanation I could find for why the present configuration exists is because the Metro-North line might block the simpler connection.
If it were being built today, they would probably route the #5 northeast from 138th St. so that the next stop was 3rd Ave./149th St.
But it was built back in 1917 or so, and I guess they wanted to have all trains stop at the transfer station at 149th St./Grand Concourse.
(I am assuming these ramp tracks used by the #5 were built at the same time as the tracks used by today's #4, but I am not positive of that.
Does anyone know for sure if they were, or if the station at one point was used by the equivalents of today's #2 and #4 without there being a track connection between them?)
The sound of trains rounding the sharp curve there can be like chalk on a blackboard sometimes. But I agree it seems to have gotten a bit less severe in recent months.
Another question about this station:
On the surface, at the SW corner of 149th and the Concourse, there is a small building with a tiled sign reading "Mott Avenue Station". It is located next to one of the entrances to Hostos Community College. The thing about this building is, it has no doors. Just a large window with an iron grate covering it. I call it a "window" because it does not reach to ground level. What was this building originally for? Is it an extension of the elevator shaft for the (now closed) elevator to the lower platform? Is it still needed for anything?
Ah, MOTT AVENUE, that's music to my ears. I was up there on October 27th with Steve B and subway-buff and was in perfect position on the head end of the southbound platform to listen to the northbound Redbirds sing. The rails began to clink - then we heard a muffled hoot, then lights in the jughandle mouth and then R29 #8711 swept into the station, screaming like a banshee. I love it! As I had previously mentioned, I suspect there may be sprayers in the curved section of tunnel before the switch, but at the switch-point itself, it's a Redbird Opera. I wonder if the R142/R142A are going to make such sweet music. I bet they will - the R62A's put up a terrific fuss leaving Brooklyn Bridge to turn in the City Hall Loop. My one ride through there (Sept. 14, 1997) aboard #1762 was an ear-splitting experience.
Wayne
I forgot to mention someone. The one cars that seem to go around that turn (Cortlandt and City Hall) is the Slanted 40's. Even the 32's seem to have a hard time going around that curve.
N Broadway Line
I think motormen go into "cowboy" mode when operating the R40 slants, because of their speed.
Now there's a word I havent used in years. My grandfather (an MTA worker for 35+ years) used to refer to motormen who sped as "cowboys".
The R40's are fastest downhill and around curves. The 38's perform better uphill and straight track.
N Broadway Local
I think that speedwise, the R40/42's can't be touched.....on any kind of track.
Now that you mention it - they do.
Anybody remember the movie "The Cowboy Way", and its co-stars - Slant R40 #4310 and #4311?
Wayne
Then that would qualify all motormen who ran the R-10s on the A. Maybe Indy driver would be a better description.
Wayne,
"N/B curve's 125-degree angle and very tight radius (must be no more than a couple hundredfeet). The S/B curve has a steeper angle (130 degrees) but a much wider radius."
Explain N/B and S/B? And, how did you come up with that diameter?
How does the sharp curve b/t cortlandt Street and city hall compare to the #5.
Fulton Street on the 2/3 line is pretty sharp (similar to whitehall street and Rector Street), but that's not the same thing.
N Broadway Local
Ah, but was it an aria for a coloratura or lyric soprano? Or, perhaps, a Wagnerian? Wait, that pertains to the R-68s. Rim shot!
The 5 trains we took on our excursion didn't make a whole lot of noise on that notorious curve at Mott Ave. I did notice the old-style IRT signal on the Manhattan-bound side.
Some #4’s do use “Redbirds” on their run; conversely, about a week or two ago I saw some R-62 or R-62A’s running on the #5.
12/05/99
I checked on a tip from Mark W. about the LIRR DM-30's in the NY Cross Harbor yard at 1st Ave. Yep! They're there , looking kinda dirty. I was told they were sent back upstate for some reason and they're back ready for LIRR service. They're #500 and #501 , against the fence and blocked by some old diesel. Unphotographable.
Bill Newkirk
12/05/99
Yesterday I was riding northbound on the (B) West End and observing the resignaling work. I noticed no southbounds so I got off at 36th St and took the next southbound (B) to Coney. We ran express to 59th St and after 59th St. express to Coney Island down Sea Beach middle.
Today I returned with my car and a 6 foor ladder at Ave P overpass to photograph this move. The sunlight was nice , the ladder overcame the fencing but one south bound was on the local. The signals were red in both directions. Anyone familiar with the G.O.? Is Sea Beach middle used for this weekend diversion on Saturdays only and Sundays run local because of reduced headways?
Bill Newkirk
There could've been a delay in N service.
Back in October, I took the B to Bklyn on a Sunday. There was a diversion that day with no B trains running southvound. Instead, we ran to 59th street, via 4th ave exp, then wrong-rail on the Sea Beach Exp to, I think, Kings Hwy, then switching to the southbound exp track for the rest of the trip to C.I., where it switched back to West End tracks. Not exactly a smooth ride, but it was quite a trip.
Joe C
Remember a few weeks ago we were talking about Spalding Hi-Bounce Balls. I received a catalogue from a Company called Ebbets Field Flannels. Of all places. Check out their website WWW.Ebbets.Com. They have Spal;dings @ 2/$5.00. I just ordered 4 packs and some old T Shirts
Remember a few weeks ago we were talking about Spalding Hi-Bounce Balls. I received a catalogue from a Company called Ebbets Field Flannels. Of all places. Check out their website WWW.Ebbets.Com. They have Spal;dings @ 2/$5.00. I just ordered 4 packs and some old T Shirts
2 for $5.00! man, I remember when they were A Quarter each. Those and the Pennsy-Pinkies. The cheap no-brand pink rubber balls were a Dime. I'm talking early and mid-sixties. I'll bet there are people on SubTalk who remember 50s, 40s or earlier. How much was a "Spaldeen" back then?
In the mid 50s they were any where from 15 cents each to a quarter, depending where you bought them. On Kings Highway, or Near Marlboro Theater on Bay Parkway. Never bought them any place else
In the mid 50s they were any where from 15 cents each to a quarter, depending where you bought them. On Kings Highway, or Near Marlboro Theater on Bay Parkway. Never bought them any place else
I lived in Manhattan when I was growing up. Spaldings and Pennsy-Pinkies were a Quarter at the local toy stores. Like I said, those were the good pink rubber balls. The cheap ones were a Dime. That was in the early and mid sixties. I also remember 10 and 15¢ kites - Hi-Flyers, 10¢ water guns (the little ray guns the size of a derringer), Topps Baseball Cards - 10¢ for 5 cards with a stick of bubble gum or a pack of 10 cards with no gum. If I would have saved those, I'd be a millionaire today. My first year with Baseball Cards was 1959. I got them every year through 1967. I remember the 15¢ pizza, the 15¢ fare, nickel pinball, later a Dime. The nickel machines had wooden legs. Pinball machines had 5 separate balls until 1965. I used to love to play 2 or 3 balls at a time!
I too remember the Spaldeens as being a quarter. Growing up in Sunnyside, none of us could afford it on a regular basis because we "roofed" many of them over a row of stores or they went in the street and down the sewers. We would walk to Stevens TV on 50th and Queens Blvd and buy the "factory seconds" for either 8 cents or 11 cents. They were marked 'Spauldings' but didn't bounce as high but since we knew they wouldn't last long, why spend the extra money?? We could but 2-3 packs of baseball cards for the difference in price.
If only we kept the Tops and Baumann baseball cards from the 50s. I would be a millionaire now. Boy what would rookie Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays and Henry Aaron Cards be worth now????
I lost all mine playing "colors"!! Remember??? Maybe we should start saving Pokemon cards, whatever they are!!!
I remember never having the good luck to ever get a Willie Mays, Mantle or some of the other superstars of the time...Always thought that is was a marketing ploy by Tops to get you to buy more packs of 5 cards plus a large stick of sugary bubble-gum for 5 cents.
I remember never having the good luck to ever get a Willie Mays, Mantle or some of the other superstars of the time...Always thought that is was a marketing ploy by Tops to get you to buy more packs of 5 cards plus a large stick of sugary bubble-gum for 5 cents.
I think so. I don't ever remember seeing many Yankee cards. Yankee cards were extremely rare. Whenever I think about Baseball Cards, I often wonder if Topps did this all over the country, making hometown teams'cards rare in the hometown (say Cubs and White Sox cards rare in the Chicago area and Red Sox cards rare in New England). BTW, I collected BB cards from 1959-1967. I remember the price being 10¢ for either 5 cards and a stick of gum, or 10 cards and no gum. If it was 5¢ before 1959, I don't know.
It was a m nickel for a pack of six between 1948-1954, and then Bowman's was the best card. They went out of business after 1955. Topps came out with cards in 1952 and my gripe was there were too many Yankees and not enough Dodgers. Maybe Topps of Brooklyn did want us to buy a lot of cards and were stingy with their hometown team, but I doubt it since there were Yankee fans in Brooklyn, especially in Italian neighborhoods. When I bought my first three packs of tops, I got three 1952 Mickey Mantle cards. Do you know what they are worth today? I hated the Yankees so much that I threw the cards away, and never bought Topps again until l957 when I was by then a Californian.
And DEM BUMS ARE STILL WITH YOU FRED
Brighton Beach Bob: Not the Los Angeles Dodgers, but the Brooklyn Dodgers? Until all eternity.
Same Team, same ownership (up to now) Just dummer fans. How many times in the early days of the LA Dodgers did the people take their radios to the Stadium, so Scully can tell them what was happening. In Brooklyn we took our radios to the games to hear the other teams. But they still were the Dodgers
I guess you can say we have another thing in common: we both got rid of baseball cards which are worth mucho dinero today. In my case, it was a Nolan Ryan rookie card. And I'm a Mets fan!! Go figure. I should say that I gave away all of my cards in 1973, nearly all of which were from 1968-69.
I guess you can say we have another thing in common: we both got rid of baseball cards which are worth mucho dinero today. In my case, it was a Nolan Ryan rookie card. And I'm a Mets fan!! Go figure. I should say that I gave away all of my cards in 1973, nearly all of which were from 1968-69.
I collected baseball cards from 1959-1967. Like most every other kid, when the current year's cards came out, I would throw out last year's.
That's why they're worth so much. Everyone thought they were worthless if they were last year's cards.
If only I had kept that Nolan Ryan rookie card instead of GIVING IT AWAY back in 1973....
The building where Spaldings used to be manufactured is still standing on Pacific Street and 6th Ave. across from the LIRR yard.
Doug aka BMTman
The December issue of Railpace has a picture of the star of the movie"Money Train" R-21 7186 sitting in the Coney Island Yard and visible from the street,MacDonald Av and Av X.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, it's on the 'scrap track' over by the paint shop.
Too bad none of the trolley/rapid transit museums are interested in the car. I would think by showcasing a 'star car' the revenues from visits by curiosity seekers (as well as interested railfans) would increase a museums funding (even though the car itself is not technicaly a museum piece).
Doug aka BMTman
A friend of mine who's a Road Car Inspector told me that he recently 'pre-tripped' (TA term for inspected) both N1 and N2. He said that they are kept in excellent and very clean conditions as opposed to other MOW diesels that he clains are kept like pig stys. He said that the cleanliness had little to do with the fact that the SBK diesels interchange (or used to) with common carrier rail freight, but more on the pride that the crew takes in running them.
The two units were over at the 36th Street yard even though he is assigned and usually works at the Westchester shops.
Thought this would be of interest.
Doug aka BMTman
This reminds me I don't have this months RailPace with me but they meantion the work loco at GCT to be returning to the TA. When I get home I'll post the info.
12/05/99
We have been talking about the Polo Grounds shuttle walking tour as of late. Just a reminder to anybody just tuning that it's on. Just find the main page , the one with the four subway car photos on top. Click on Upcoming events for all imformation. Let's have a healthy turnout! BRING LOTSA FILM !
Bill Newkirk
Did anyone else hear that the old trolley tunnel that existed at the crossing of Church Ave. and Ocean Parkway is to be unearthed and reused to ease traffic congestion problems in central Brooklyn?
I saw it on Channel 5's 10'0 Clock News. Just a brief story with a quick shot of the current intersection. There was no time frame mentioned either.
Doug aka BMTman
There was a story I think in the Sunday News. It said the tunnel runs beneath Ocean Parkway and would allow Church Ave. traffic to pass under the highway, while making left turns onto ramps off Ocean Pkwy. leading to Church Ave. easier. But they'll have to widen the tunnel first.
I believe other trolley/train tunnels converted to traffic use run under the Grand Concourse in the Bronx and Park Avenue at 32nd St in NYC.
www.forgotten-ny.com
A few years ago I forwarded the idea of building underpasses to our transportation division. The idea is Brooklyn (and SI) have no highways, only major streets with signal priority. They back up when two of them cross, because neither can have priority. The idea is that if you put in underpasses where two major streets cross, you get two streets with a lot of capacity that are less disruptive than a highway.
The problem is, these suckers cost $100 million each (why, I don't know), so there is another memo that died off. Perhaps they can do it if a tunnel is already there.
It was in the News or The Post this Sunday, the Church Ave is still many years away. Of all the propsed traffic fixes adding a new exit to Brooklyn Bridge is the one they will do in 10 years.
There is a vehicular tunnel in Park Av South, btwn 33 St and 40 ST, that was actually built as a RR tunnel ca 1854 to service the first Grand Central. When GCT was moved to 42nd St, the tunnel was converted to trolley use. About 1920, it was converted to auto traffic . It still has an intact trolley station in its center, only accessible by the tunnel interior- watch that traffic while your taking pixs.
The express tracks on the Lexington Ave. line are directly beneath this vehicular tunnel, which is why they're set lower than the local tracks at 33rd St. I wonder how that tunnel was shorn up during subway construction.
Not very well, apparantly, since one of the street collapses was at 37th and Park Ave.
I believe that tunnel is called the Murray Hill Tunnel.
[There is a vehicular tunnel in Park Av South, btwn 33 St and 40 ST, that was actually built as a RR tunnel ca 1854 to service the first Grand Central. When GCT was moved to 42nd St, the tunnel was converted to trolley use. About 1920, it was converted to auto traffic . It still has an intact trolley station in its center, only accessible by the tunnel interior- watch that traffic while your taking pixs.]
Hey, I didn't know about that trolley tunnel.
I've always wondered why they didn't use that tunnel to link the Penn Station tracks to GCT--I imagine it would cost a small fortune to get past the subway lines, but the advantages of linking Penn Station and Grand Central are apparent.
Who would link it. the PRR and NYCentral were bitter enemies way back when they could have done it. The private transportation companies, well they favored on or the other. Most of the New Haven Trains ran out of GCT. Could should would, it never happened.
[Who would link it. the PRR and NYCentral were bitter enemies way back when they could have done it. The private transportation companies, well they favored on or the other. Most of the New Haven Trains ran out of GCT. Could should would, it never happened.]
But I would have expected it to happened after Penn Central went under.
While I am not sure that it was never ever ever used for trolleys, I am pretty sure that the Park Ave. & 32nd St. tunnel was originally used for RR trains before the depot was moved North from Union Square to 42nd Street. As for the underpasses crossing the Grand Concourse, it was my impression that they were put in place when the IND line was built and were always used by auto traffic.
Anybody know for sure?
There is a book in the Tracks of New York series, called the Metropolitan Street Railway. In that book, theres a picture of a trolley coming up the tunnel ramp.
Also photo in Brooklyn Trollwy Cars
"Union Square"
Madison Square
I also heard this. IIRC, the tunnel was filled with rock and debris c.1960 rather than simply sealed.
If they had to clear it out and widen it, it might cost more than a new tunnel.
Also, it appeals to me that, if it were widened it wouldn't really be a resurrection of the trolley tunnel so much as a new tunnel in the same place.
Yes, I saw that too. I heard about that idea being knocked around by the local Community Board and City Planning as well for atleast 10 years. I guess they picked up on it. Before they get all excited, they might want to make sure its still there ie was not "daylighted" and filled in back in 1956.
As I recall, Paul Matus is right about the Church Avenue tunnel being filled in with rock and earth, but I think it was soon after the streetcar service was discontinued rather than later, in the 1960s. Obviously, I could be wrong.
Back around 1954, I tried to find out (through BMT Trainmaster's office acquaintances on Jay Street) when that tunnel was built and there was no record anyone could find of when it opened. I never tried to check out old newspaper files, though, since one of them might have reported when it opened. Anyone have any references on this?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Lets use some deduction on this one. Ocean Pkwy was built about 1880, so it cant be older than that. The Church Av trolley was electrified in the mid 1890's- I would make and educated guess thats when the tunnel dates from. Also, in old photos, the tunnel fly walls appear to be stone. If it were built after about 1910, it would have been concrete.
I have a memory of standing with my father looking east from Ocean Parkway at the tunnel in 1960, and that the work to fill and close it began not long after. So this would have left the tunnel unused for a good 3-4 years after abandonment.
As to its date of opening, there was a law that Ocean Parkway was not to be crossed by tracks--this was why the Manhattan Beach RR had to build a tunnel at great expense. I think the Church Ave. car was opened about 1895 and that it used the tunnel from day one.
I don't think there was any trolley crossing of Ocean Parkway except possibly at Neptune Ave.--and that might have been grandfathered.
The Coney Island Ave Trolley crossed Ocean Pkwy at Brighton Beach Ave, I am looking at the Brooklyn Trolley Lines Map on the back of the Book Brooklyn Trolleys, and there were only 3 Trolley crossings. Church, Neptune and Bright Beach Ave
The Coney Island Ave Trolley crossed Ocean Pkwy at Brighton Beach Ave
I believe that the point at which the Coney Island Avenue trolley crossed the street is officially Surf Avenue, not Ocean Parkway.
No Paul, the Trolley never went to Surf Ave, After it turned off CI Ave to Brighton Beach Ave, it went West, past Ocean Pkwy 1 block, and turned onto a PVT Right of Way, then onto Sea Breeze Ave, Straight into the Loop around the Bus Garage.
Paul, at first I thought you were right---that Ocean Parkway ended at Brighton Beach Ave and the road became Surf Ave. Looking at a Brooklyn Map reveals that Ocean Parkway continues another block south of Brighton Beach Ave, which is Sea Breeze Ave, and that Surf Ave starts from that point.
I have the tape of Brooklyn Trolley Lines Part 3 which focuses on the PCC Cars and the tape does show that turn around and also shows the Church Ave tunnel at Ocean Parkway.
You can find a ton of pictures on this tunnel at http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/nyc/brook.htm
Look Under Brooklyn & Queens Transit
I don't know when the current smooth curve from Ocean Parkway into Surf Avenue was built. My 1928 Red Book lists no cross streets for Ocean Parkway south of Brighton Beach and none for Surf Avenue east of W5, even though there was surely something along the line of Surf Ave. east of there way earlier.
That curve smells of Moses era, but I'm by no means certain of that.
At any rate, the Coney Island Ave. trolley (Coney Island & Brooklyn RR) has to predate construction of Ocean Parkway so near the shoreline.
No Paul, the Trolley never went to Surf Ave, After it turned off CI Ave to Brighton Beach Ave, it went West, past Ocean Pkwy 1 block, and turned onto a PVT Right of Way, then onto Sea Breeze Ave, Straight into the Loop around the Bus Garage.
I have to call you on that one, Bob.
The PROW for the Coney Island Ave. car was EAST of Ocean Parkway. There were no tracks on Brighton Beach Avenue at Ocean Parkway.
The PROW intersected the point where Ocean Parkway ended and Surf Avenue began and the tracks turned west onto Sea Breeze Ave. to the CI&B terminal.
So I might get away with saying the C.I. Ave. trolley didn't actually cross Ocean Parkway. On City maps, where does Ocean Parkway end? The north curb? The south curb? The middle? Don't laugh, things like that count for, say, an accident investigation.
That PROW goes by the name of, I think, Brighton 1st Court or Brighton 1st Place. It's paved over but still closed to vehicular traffic.
--Mark
If you go to the corner where Ocean Pkwy turns into Surf Ave, there is a street sign. One side Says Surf Ave, the Other Ocean Pkwy, so at the turn is where one begins and the other ends. Maybe you are right, the trolley might have turned before O.P. but it still crossed Ocean Pkwy
i think you did a very good job!! i am 50 years old maybe i could do as good also !! dont give up your project maybe you could design a master pattern that could go into production and make some money etc.
thank you very much salaamallah@yahoo.com
i think you did a very good job!! i am 50 years old maybe i could do as good also !! dont give up your project maybe you could design a master pattern that could go into production and make some money etc.
thank you very much salaamallah@yahoo.com
Just saw this movie today and I saw what I believe were former R30s 7815 and 8571?! 8571's interior # was 8322. 7815 had an 8 and a 9 in the number. Can anybody clarify this?
Red Bird Guy 9600
7815 is an R-26 and is still in service.
David
[Just saw this movie today and I saw what I believe were former R30s 7815 and 8571?! 8571's interior # was 8322. 7815 had an 8 and a 9 in the number. Can anybody clarify this?
Red Bird Guy 9600]
I know this is off topic and I hope Dave don't mind just this much but I have noticed that SubTalkers occasionally talk about computer equipment and modern electronic innovations. I just found this site and if anyone wants to read about the latest technological electronic advances for the new century and millennium CLICK HERE
I LOVE IT!!!
Thanks Sarge for that link, although I feel
especially uptight about being Off Topic. What I
really got a tickle with was: when I looked at the
initial picture on the screen, it seemed like that
the red object in the background was an
etch-a-sketch, which seemed like a real goof.
I guess it's a sign of my age, but I really don't
buy into a lot of the technology that's being sold
now-a-days. I guess I've resisted getting caught up in the latest computer, or graphics software, or
newest computer language. It still doesn't replace
style and talent and an artist's way with words or
images. Strip away the Palm Pilots, the Note-books, the whole Internet---- what do we really know about
ourselves and others?? ---- how do we show our
connection to ourselves and others as we approach
1-1-2000 when, as I have been predicting, the face
of mass transit in NYC will take a 50 year leap back in time. Electronic destination signs will be a
thing of the past, when good old hand cranked roll
signs or even better, individual destination signs
that are kept in a box. Who needs large destination signs in front, when we can have kerosene lanterns
on top of our low-V's? ( I still have trouble
believing that they actually used kerosene to light
those marker lights. ) Testing a train for 5 or 10 years to figure out what's wrong with it will be a thing of the past. Building a Boeing trolley car, which had a couple of hundred parts on the front door assembly to go wrong will be a bad memory.
Back to the 40's and 50's, when workers produced on typewriters and used adding machines and when other people weren't busy scheming how to rape this country of its wealth and spirit. Back to the age of Dicken's A Christmas Carol, when a wealthy greedy person like Scrooge wisely took his chance to change himself. after experiencing the real horror of his ways.
12/06/99
Jeff,
How did you manage to get into 370 Jay St. and photograph that equipment?
Bill Newkirk
I can't remember when I've had such a good laugh, and I work in the "technology" sector. In order to bring this subject on-topic for SubTalk; in my opinion, transit technology reached its nadir with the PCC car, and that has never been improved upon. Take that, dot-matrix destination signs!
"....transit technology reached its nadir with the PCC car"
Don't you mean Zenith?
From the Random House Websters Dictionary (software) © 1992:
na-dir (nay'duhr, -deer) n.
1. the point on the celestial sphere
directly beneath a given position or
observer and diametrically opposite the
zenith.
2. the lowest point; point of greatest
adversity or despair.
[1350-1400; ME < < Ar nazir over against, opposite
to (the zenith)]
Derived words
--na'dir-al, adj.
Merriam-Webster shows the opposite, the zenith is on top, and nadir is on the bottom. Everyplace I've heard use those words used them that way. Besides, why would anyone trademark their TVs as the bottom?
Oh wait, that Zenith on it's own line made me think it was a completely different definition OOPS. I've always heard the PCC as very high tech for it's time, how could it be considered the nadir?
ze-nith (zee'nith; esp. Brit. zen'ith) n.
1. the point on the celestial sphere
vertically above a given position or
observer. Compare NADIR.
2. the highest point or state; culmination;
peak.
[1350-1400; ME cenith < ML < OSp zenit, scribal
error for zemt < Ar samt road (cf. Ar samt ar-ras
road above (over) one's head, the opposite of
nadir)]
What does posting this definition I already know, achieve?
You haven't answered my question with this.
You haven't answered my question with this.
What was your question? I read so many posts on this site, I can't remember.
I've always heard the PCC as very high tech for it's time, how could it be considered the nadir?
I've always heard the PCC as very high tech for it's time, how could it be considered the nadir?
I didn't say that it was. Somebody else did. All I did was copy and paste the definitions of nadir and zenith from my dictionary software into SubTalk.
I stand corrected. I am truly embarrassed, and vow never to misuse the word "nadir" again. Thanks to all alert SubTalkers for catching my error.
I stand corrected. I am truly embarrassed, and vow never to misuse the word "nadir" again. Thanks to all alert SubTalkers for catching my error.
I didn't even know what the word nadir meant. I had to look it up. Zenith is the high point. I never knew what the low point was.
Hey, now that you know, use as appropriate!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If anyone is a fan of thre movie "Escape from New York" perhaps you may own the director's cut video. It contains the trailer and interview with the director John Carpenter. During that interview he show's the scenes that were cut from the movie wich shows Snake Blisken robbing a bank and boarding a subway train. The station where he boards the train is bright white. If anyone has this tape maybe they can tell me what subway is depicted in this cut scene from the movie. Even at the end of this scene Snake is caught by the police as he is exiting from this subway. The director says that in the movie, Snake is to take a subway train that runs from St. Louis to Los Angeles.
If any of you saw The Warriors (1979), here is surrealism at work. Certain gang members are supposed to be boarding an elevated train in The Bronx, and what set of “R” units is there? A train of BMT-IND R-27/30’s (which is omnipresent throughout the entire picture)! Now, everyone knows that The Bronx has no elevated “B-Division” section, right? Plus the fact that every underground station they go to looks like Hoyt-Schermerhorn (probably because they were all shot at Hoyt-Schermerhorn).
Don't get too technical... The Warriors was one really hyped up movie. When I left that movie, I was so psyched up I was almost ready to kill someone, and I look like a tall Woody Allen. If I am not mistaken, wasn't it that movie that had some riots in the theater or after the movie?
If a bunch of R30's can end up in California, then anything is possible.
Speaking of ridiculous subway scenes in movies, what about that scene near the end of The Bone Collector? The woman cop is looking for clues in an "abandoned subway station" near the Battery, around the SI Ferry terminal. She comes across a wrecked and abandoned Standard in the station! Amazing how the BMT decided not to recover it up but rather just leave it there. Maybe there's more to the Malbone Street wreck than we realize....
That shows it's a fantasy movie. There are no wrecked Standards -- the Standards are the ones that wreck all the other cars they collide with.
Look for green R10's on the C in JACOB'S LADDER.
Joe C
Unless, of course, a Triplex were to crash into a standard. I don't believe that ever happened. Now, two Triplexes DID collide at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. Talk about a sonic boom...
12/08/99
Sonic boom ? You mean earthquake!
Bill Newkirk
The was NOT a Standard in The Bone Collector.
It was an IND R-1/9 type car.
Well, Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised as 96th St. Union Square, OTOH, is the real McCoy; in fact, there are brief shots on all three lines which have stations there. Actually, they snuck in a very brief shot from the Broadway line; it's the "To 14th St. subway" direction sign which used to be displayed on the station columns.
One thing is consistent throughout the movie: inconsistent train markings. Apparently, no one paid any attention to that aspect. One train pulls into a station signed as an M. Near the end of the film, during the scene with the prom couples, a QB/Local via Bridge side route sign is visible.
The railfan views during the opening titles were all shot along Fulton St. And at the very beginning, the R-42s make a cameo appearance on the D line.
12/08/99
I stated this in a post a while back , but for those who are new here:
If you have the movie Diehard:With a vengeance , and it is on tape , you'll notice the scene where Bruce runs through the train with the bomb and toss it through the storm door window. As the train (R-27/30) enters the station signed up for an IRT route (#1 ?) look closely at the scene of the train in tunnel with bomb flying through window. The signs are between (A) and (C)!! A slow motion on the VCR will show this better. OOPS! We forgot to change the signs in the rear!
Bill Newkirk
"Escape From New York" was actually filmed in St. Louis.
That's what I call taking EXTREME liberties to the point of being absurd.
How about the movie Mimic......that had plenty of subway scenes,what was the station with the room at the end of the platform which led to the vast underground station with that relic of a subway car....was there ever that type of car ever used in N.Y.C. or for that fact ever made ? that's the 2nd film made depicting the lost subway..the 1st was the 2nd Ghostbuster movie,opps sorry there was the ninja turtles movie which also had a lost subway car and station,that car looked like it might have existed...any thoughts ?
"Mimic" was flmed in Toronto. TTC cars.....
AMTRAK BREAKS NEW GROUND WITH START OF WORK ON $140 MILLION FREQUENCY CONVERTER TO SUPPORT HIGH-SPEED RAIL SERVICE: Amtrak today broke ground in Northeast Philadelphia on the $140 million Richmond Frequency Converter Replacement Project, a facility critical to ensure reliable Amtrak high-speed rail service and commuter rail operations on the Northeast Corridor between New York, Philadelphia and Washington.
The frequency converter station, which changes commercially generated electricity from 60 Hz to the 25Hz frequency required to power Amtrak and commuter trains, will be the largest such facility in the world. The frequency converter station will help deliver traction power for trains carrying 75 million passengers a year, including 10.3 million Amtrak passengers, 19.2 million SEPTA passengers, 41.8 million NJ TRANSIT passengers and 3 million MARC passengers. Amtrak is constructing the Richmond Frequency Converter with the help of the Pennsylvania Economic Development Financing Authority (PEDFA), part of Pennsylvania's Department of Community and Economic Development.
PEDFA issues tax-exempt and taxable bonds and makes loans to businesses to finance land, building, equipment and working capital.
Construction of the two-story structure that will house the converters and converter controls is expected to be completed by January 2002. The converter station will be built on vacant land at the south end of the PECO's Richmond Generating Facility. This project will create approximately 125 jobs for skilled labor during construction and approximately 16 full-time positions with Amtrak. With the completion of the converter project, Amtrak's Northeast Corridor will have ample traction power capacity to run all 20 Acela Express high-speed trainsets, while increasing the reliability of all Amtrak and commuter trains that run on the Northeast Corridor. High-speed train service will begin operating next year between Boston and Washington, as part of the rebranding of NEC service as Acela. The current facility on the site was built over 60 years ago by the Pennsylvania Railroad as part of the original electrification of the Northeast Corridor between New York and Washington. The new frequency converter station will replace the aging current facility as well provide the additional capacity necessary to reliably sustain the expected growth in Amtrak and commuter train operations.
(Amtrak)
Gee, I really get things scrambled. I thought that when they made the voltage changes in the North East Corridor years ago, they also changed the frequency to 60 cycles from 25 cycles. I thought that was one of the issues that made it impossible to run a GG1 on the new electrical system. They are still using
25 cycle?
Putting that aside, I think one of the most interesting ERA monthly programs I've ever been to, was right around the time of the changeover of voltage on the corridor. A man who was with the PRR from wayback, I think as an electrical engineer talked about the old system and what problems the new system might bring about. I remember him talking about phase gaps, whatever that was or is, but most memorably he gave me a tremendous feeling for the genius of the men who built the original Pennsy system. I wonder if there are any ERA members here who might have been to that show also?
Dats why I posted that news blurb. I am totaly confused now on what the cycles are and to be Was to Bos and everything in between.
DC to NYP is 11kv, 25hz. Same thing the GG-1 and the PRR's you-know-what-class MUs ran on.
NYP to New Rochelle is 12.5K, 60hz. The switch is one the approach to the Hell Gate.
NR to New haven is also 12.5k 60hz, but the phase breaks are stretched out more AND the voltage is allowed to climb higher. As high as 15k in places (according to a Metro-North guy I talked to on the subject.
About one mile north of NH, it goes to 25kv, all the way to Boston.
There's really no technical reason to run 25hz, except that Septa's MUs may not be able to run on 60hz. It's an obsolete system that (IMHO) should have been done away with in '83. 50-60hz AC is a proven technology. Has been since the early 60's.
maybe all the AC Catenary will be compatible when the (NYC style--NEVER do anything like the ZZPRR!!) non-conforming third rail on MNCR is changed over. (facilitating NH service to Penn and LIRR service to ANY track at GCT) Wear snow suits in the sub basement.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the advantage of having so many different voltages and frequencies between Boston and Washington? Wouldn't equipment and roling stock be less expensive to build, purchase, maintain, and operate if there were a uniform voltage and frequency for all mainline railroad catenary systems?
Absolutely. But we've got a legacy to contend with, and maintaining the old frequency on the Corridor is a lot cheaper than retrofitting all the existing equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For NJT to upgrade the Morris and Essex divisions from 3000 VDC to 25,000 VAC it cost 1 BILLION dollars. Or at least that's what I heard.
Well, Once upon a time, everybody was 11kv, 25hz.
But the New Haven couldn't generate electricity very well. And in any case, nobody really made 25hz AC or 25hz equipment after WWII anyway.
Then the PC happened, and the New Haven line got handed over to Metro-North (first under conrail). Along with an aging 25hz power station, and transmission system. They (smartly) ditched it for comercially available 60hz. But the clearances on the NH line are tight, so they couldn't go to 25kv (as had been done in europe), so they bumped it to about 12.5kv from 11.
Amtrak was thinking of going over to 25kv 60hz, and 12.5kv 60hz where the clearances were tight (not unheard of, the English used to have dual 6kv / 25kv lines at one time). They actually repowered north of NYP to New Rochelle, but for some reason, never pushed south.
Then one day, they finally decided to finish the NH line's electrification to Boston (on hold since WWI). Since 25kv was what they were going to go to all along, that's what they went with.
NJT runs 25kv already, partly because they expected Amtrak to convert in the 80's (70's?)
Thus, began the popular myth that the NEC is 25kv.
Amtrak, and eveyone else, would LOVE it if the NEC was one voltage. 25hz required a heavier transformer than 60hz, so it's a weight penalty. MN would love to run into Penn under the wire, but can't because it's 25hz in penn and the M-4s and M-6s can't handle that. The people who design locomotives would love it if everyone made up their mind - no tap changer, voltage detection equipment, etc.
Why amtrak isn't phasing in 60hz (no pun intended), is beyond me. Even at 12.5k, 60hz has definite advantages. I've also heard the AEM-7s do better on 60hz power (I'd assume they fly even better on 25kv AC). Unless Amtrak was stupid, the signal system if and when it was rebuilt, should be able to handle a frequency / voltage change. AFIK, insulation / clearences are independant of frequency. They could probbly even retain much of the distribution network.
According to Commuter News: They will use 25 K Voltage. The Station will convert the 60Hz to 25Hz.
My question: Does SEPTA uses 12.5K or do they use 25K-- either they switch on the fly (Trenton must be 12.5 since the NEC to NYC uses 12.5)
Septa's 12.5 (actually 11k or 12k depending on PRR side Vs Reading Side)
OK- but if the new electrical station has 25K how will that help SEPTA's operations since they do not use 25K (and neither does NJT except for their ALP locomotives which can switch on the fly.)
Doesn't Amtrak use the 12.5 (or around that number) for NYC to Philly
No idea. Maybe they're thinking of going to 25k, but if so, it makes real sense to ditch 25hz operation. I wouldn't be surprised if they could go 25k now, without much catenary work - the PRR seemed to massively overengineer it (they seemed to like doing that)
The NEC, PRR section, is 11kv, 25hz.
When was the NE corridor first electrified?
I know that the PRR built its sections from about 1920 to about 1933 and the New Haven started in 1911 and probably finished in the 20's.
I was on car # 7795 this mmorning on the #5 line. The maedallion in the car claimed it had been built by the St. Louis Car Co. The car rosters I have seen indicated that it was built by ACF. Anybody know what's right and what's wrong?
AFC is correct.
I think you mean ACF!!!! AFC? That has something to do with the turnstiles that accept MetroCard.
Speaking of ACF's Joel, there was talk that a pair, if not more, will be preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum. Wouldn't that be great?
I know that at least somebody's interested in saving a Married Pair.
-Stef
Speaking of cars, I just realized that 6688 has been reincarnated into a Bombardier R142. Subway cars do live on I suppose.... I just hope that the New Tech Cars won't be dissapointing.
-Stef
American Car Foundry or American Car and Foundry
hey guys......need your expertise.......for years I have looked down from my amtrak train over the trestle end of the Hell Gate bridge .....2 shells of what appear to be an R44 and an R12 have been used by the Fire Dept for training on Randall's Island...anyone know their original numbers and why they were chosen??? Really enjoy this message site to help keep up on things!! MANY THANKS to anyone who can shed light on this question.
Not sure of the unit numbers, but there were about eight R44 which did not go to GOH - it's probably one of them.
Wayne
I spent the day ( a rainy one) riding several SEPTA vehicles. The 109 bus from 69th st. to Springfield Mall was great on a Neoplan bus.
I really like that whine they make in first gear. I took the 101 Media trolley back to 69th st. and it seems like the old "K" cars are still hanging in there. The trolley operated smoothly at all speeds.
Then I rode the "el" from 69th st. to 15th. st. No problems, no station overshoots, etc. I changed for the BSS at 15th st. , as I had to go to Pattison Av. to the First Union Center to buy some discount tickets. The BSS cars are also operating well, except the operators bring them to jerky stop so they can hop out of their seats to open the left side doors in this OPTO operation. I also saw many stations on the south end of the BSS being cleaned up or refurbished.
They even wash down a lot of the sation platforms or sweep them right after rush hour!Made the return trip on the BSS and the "el"back to 69th st. The track layout on ths BSS is really something south of City Hall . Does anyone have a track layout of SEPTA'S Broad St. Line?
SEPTA seems to be getting there.........
Chuck Greene
I saw some work down there too when I was there in July. I didn't notice any jerky stops on the 2 times I've ridden the BSL (or BSS as you call it). I also have not seen the MFL motormen overrun the stations but I've only been on that line twice, too.
Thanks for your input and response to my post! Do you hail from the
Wash/ D.C. area? My son works at the University of Maryland and although he has his own car, he sometimes takes the "Green Line" into center D.C.
Chuck Greene
Yes, I do but am not going to say much more than that. It is a nice ride from College Park into DC and for the real railfan, there is a house next to the southbound Green Line track at the College Park Station. I'd like to live there and have a private mezzanine into the metro station.
Why do some have a black floor and some have the normal floor? EVERY CAR should come with black floors.
I'm happy to say that I had a part in that decision. Some time after they were delivered, several R-68A consists were trapped at 145th St. by a flash flood. Over the course of a few years, those cars showed extensive deterioration in the floor integrity. In 1995, it was decided that those cars should receive new floors. We opted for the R-110 type flooring because it was supposed to be more resilliant than the conventional car floor and showed less dirt. By using the R-110 prototype flooring material, we were also able to test the feasibility of using this material when other car floors are slated to be replaced beginning in mid 2000.
So, will all R68 cars have this back flooring installed? I hope so, as they cut down on the glare caused by all that shiny metal surfaces that exist on the R68 interior. They also do a better job at disguising dirt.
I remembered that after a bottle explosion inside the car of R62 1391 in late 1994, a black floor was also installed on R62 1391.
Chaohwa
Bottle explosion? What was in the bottle? NITROGLYCERIN
It wasn't the bottle that explosion in R62 #1391, it was a box carry inside the brown bag by crazy guy & it just went off.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
Wasn't that the car Edward Leary was in when he decided to firebomb a 4 train at Fulton St. in some insane attempt to extort the MTA?
I think that was also the car rear ended by a layup #2 train in the Wakefield accident resulting in a couple of R33 cars violating alternate side parking rules on the street below. What luck! And to think they would retire R46 #666 with no such luck at all.
1400 got kicked from behind as I recall, while 8981 wound up on top of a building, while 9152 and 53 were hanging between the structure and the street. Whatever happened to that motorman anyway and what was the official ruling on the incident if you don't mind saying?
There was a double whammy for 9154 and 55, and 1391 which were in this accident as well as 1391's firebombing incident, and 9154 and 55s accident during a slow collision at 96 St during the Lenox Rehab last July.
-Stef
The Motorman I hear was demoted to Station Agent and Last worked at a Booth along the No.1 Line but I better not tell what station. But its a Real shame the motorman was on the job 18 Years in title and had the regauler Station Swiching Job at 241 Street. The Lay up in Question was his last for the Night which turned into the last of his Motormans career.
Thats all I wish to comment on that.
Don't feel so bad. An employee with over ten years in title cannot be demoted to his former title with a loss in pay. He retains the train operators rate until his retirement. Which I understand isn't too far off. He was smart enough to have claimed to have blacked out, and with no recolection of the events leading to the accident. That's the only thing that saved him from getting fired.
Unfortunately that is also the main reason why hordes of train crew personel are being stripped of their handles and keys and put in token booths and security details for controllable occurances of blood sugar and blood pressure. Eyesight and hearing standards of the NYCTA are being compared to FAA standards according to the Staff reps resulting in people who could function in title to be removed from their positions, soime of whom will not be eligible because of seniority to get their top rate of pay in the reclassified title. "No Work Available" is the TA's latest weapon in the never ending contract battle.
Harry, speaking as one who has significant problems with blood pressure and some with blood sugar - both deemed "controllable" - I have to disagree with you. The public is NOT safe when someone with blood pressure problems and especially blood sugar problems is at the handle of a train. Even with proper medication it is far too easy to have a sudden change in sugar and/or pressure that could result in a momentary loss of cognitive function - in other words, the brain gets screwed up for a moment - and have a serious accident be the result. Be thankful that the people are given other jobs rather than simply being forced to retire on disability.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I saw a telecast after the accident and #1400's bonnet was all mussed up - did they have to replace the fiberglas end? #8980 was sitting cheek-to-cheek with #1400, a REALLY odd couple. #8981 was propped up on somebody's rooftop and #9152-9153, well, they were Roast Redbird.
What a messy accident!
Wayne
Yeah. As of press time, the R33 wrecks were still sitting in the yard. I figure as the new cars start to arrive, these wrecks could finally be towed to the scrap line in Brooklyn.
I couldn't tell if 1400's end was completely replaced. As far as I can see, 1400 and her companions received new anticlimbers. These cars must have been separated while they were in the shop since someone fooled around with the roll signs. You'll always know which set is which because of the fact the Leary's Car, 1391 now has a black floor, and that the cars in between the 5 car sets have roll signs set all kind of ways (They should be set to 4 even in between cars cars 1391-95 and 1396-1400, but this is not the case for some reason).
-Stef
Are there any photos of the accident posted somewhere on the web? If so, someone lead me to them....I only heard snippets of what happened out there on this site.
Check the accidents list under the NYC Subway Roster Page. Our respected Web Site Host took pictures of the cars during a Lo-V Fan Trip on 9/27/98.
-Stef
Gonzo, you can also go through the Subway FAQ page to get to the Accidents List, probably the quickest way.
Cheers,
Stef
Back in the good old days, some of my flock referred to car #666 as my personal car (a tribute to their perception of my supervisory style back then). Prior to overhaul by MK, that car was out of service for propulsion related problems several times per month. However, overhaul gave it a new lease on life much as re-numbering gave it a more anonymous identity. There is a pix of car #666 in the R-46 section of the "illustrated fleet roster".
Speaking of which, do you remember a Train Trouble report of that car in the conductor's position where a child's hand got pinched in the fingerguards of one of the door panels? I think it was at 169 Street. It was major at first because Control Center classified it as a dragging although the child was on the inside of the car. Just curious if there are any witnesses that have to be "taken care of". :+)
R46 #666 is now living its second life as #5820.
By the way, over at PATH, there is still a #666, no it does not have horns protruding from the corners of the roof. Its interior plaque honors the Borough of Cranbury.
Wayne
Yes, but if the New Jersey Devils ever do move to than new arena in Hoboken, car 666 should be at the front of one of the trains going there the first night they play.
But there are those who say I do! And for those who believe in such superstitious nonsense, many years ago my license plate - regular series, this was back in the days before vanity plates - was DEV-666.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How long did you have those plates?
About a year and a half. They were on a '74 Fury (ex-police interceptor) and when I sold that were transferred to a '74 Valiant which met its end underneath a truckload of furniture (long story). Since we were about to move out of state we didn't replace the car, just surrendered the plates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was the 'fruitloop' from New jersey who tried to Firebomb the IRT and set himself on fire!
I LIKE a Black Floor R68A. That's a classy-looking subway car there. I've seen them in #5057, #5059, #5123, #5122 among others. If all of the survivors of the Morningside Heights Flood got Black Floors, then #5054 and #5111 should have them too. (You should have seen the picture in the paper of #5111 - submerged at 125th Street station up to just below the window-line, taken from a stairway) Whenever I get a Black Floor R68A, I enjoy the ride a little bit more than on an ordinary-floor R68A. I wish they ALL had them.
Wayne
For anyone interested in the beginning history of the Pelham Bay IRT 1916 extension, it is suggested you check out eBay Item #215234170.
Uptown 6 going express from GC to 125 due to police activity. Please post info on Subtalk..........
3TM
Junction Blvd. Connection to the Q72. Little Neck Pkwy bound G. The next stop will be 101St. Connection to the Q23. Stand Clear.....
You can see the steel frame of the Manhattan Beach terminal water tower. It rises fairly high above a garage at 2776 E 14 St right off Neptune Av. It must have quenched the thirst of many a G5 and Camelback in the days.
12/07/99
Bob D,
Did the G-5S's really go to Manhattan Beach? I never saw any photos of locomotives or coaches that served that line.
Bill Newkirk
The Manhattan Beach Div never was electrified, there are some pictures around clearly showing steam engines working the line. One of Seyfried's books shows it, and I think again in one of Brian Merlis's books. There is also an old booklet ca 1947 or so, about the Bayridge line that shows it. I think it also shows up in "Old Brooklyn in Early Photographs" too.
As for the G5's, the Manhattan Beach line ran until 1923, as far as I know, the older types of locomotives were already retired, like the Camelbacks and 4-4-0's, so I think its safe to surmise that g5's were used in the lines last days.
The Manhattan Beach branch was kinda sorta electrified, but not for the LIRR. It had electric into Manhattan Beach for BRT trains for a time, and it had trolley wire on the main part of the line for the Brighton shoo-fly in the "aughts."
But then when it was placed on the joint embankment, it went right back to steam.
BTW, all Bob D's pictures which he has shared so generously are "up" and linked and can be accessed at the BGCEC Book Catalog Page. Check out view "E1," one of my personal favorites--two Ls and surface trackage!
There are still Bob's great (if slightly bulky) route/elevation maps to come.
FWIW, my holiday card is on the rapidtransit.net home page. Click on it for an enlargement.
And to all, we have many holiday traditions going on this month, best wishes for each and every combination we celebrate!
Bob, that's very interesting. I'll have to check that out.
If there are anymore tidbits on the Manhattan Beach Branch, keep 'em coming!
Doug aka BMTman
For everything you wanted to know about the Bayridge line or the Manhattan Beach Div, tune to www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/raw/
Thanks to Paul Matus for setting it all up.
All I can say to Paul Matus and Bob Diamond is "THANK YOU" for an early, wonderful Christmas present. Those photos on rapidtransit.com
are nothing short of breathtaking---thanks again for a wonderful experience.
Sorry about the screwup on that earlier post---to repeat---to Paul Matus and Bob Diamond---those photos on rapidtransit.com are absolutely breathtaking---THANK YOU!!! for a wonderful experience and an early Christmas gift.
YOUR WELCOME!!!
The BGCEC book that Bob Diamond is sharing with us is a rare item--I don't think there are a whole lot of them in private hands.
It was very generous of him to share it with us so we can all enjoy it.
As a Brooklyn transit enthusiast I agree 100% with Paul. As we inch closer to the 21st Century (a few weeks away now), there will be less and less opportunities as the years go by for rail historians (and others) to acquire and share such documents as time plays a deadly toll on paper products as we are all to familiar with.
Thusly, a tip of the hat to Bob D. for the documents and two thumbs up to Paul for putting the images up on his website.
Doug
I'm asking this for a friend who has been having a lot of grief with the modem on his Imac and his ISP Blazenet.
Is anyone here know of any problems that are associated with an Imac and Blazenet? Your help will be greatly appreciated by our fellow SubTalker.
I don't do Fruit!
The more I think about it, the more using a subway train as a moblie bar makes sence. First of all you don't need to worry about desiginated drivers or drunk driving. Second, the interiors are easly hosed out after each use. An attendant could check ID and take the cover at the door. The condustor could double as a DJ. You could rip out the flouressant lighting and replace them with muti-coloured light, strobes and a disco ball. Also in things got out of hand the T/O or Conductor could lock down the doors and activate the riot supression systems that would fill the cars with tear gas and pepper spray. The the train pulls into a station filled with waiting police to remove the "bad apples". Further more you could be able to lock down indivudual cars so if a fight breaks out in one, the party can continue in the others. I mean the MTA could make a ton of money with this idea. The PARTY TRAIN would ride around the system in a big loop. It would pick up people who would ride it for a couple of loops and they would get off where they started, where they could then stagger home. I mean even if they did it just for New Years, its still a great idea. They could run it from like every 8PM-3AM FRI and SAT. I can envision the add campaign now. "MTA PARTY TRAIN: Where will you be when it stops?" or "MTA PARTY TRAIN: CATCH IT!" They could even pull some of those 70's grafitti artists out of retirement to give the cars an "exciting" paint job. Come on guys, what do you think about it?
Dancing an not falling down could be tricky - even at the normal super-slow speeds, the ride is not the smoothest. Padded walls and a thick rubber floor would do the trick, though. Padded walls could contribute to the atmosphere, too. Velvet, maybe?
Heck, I'd ride it!
It'd never happen, but it sure is fun to think about...
Padded wall, eh? Perhaps our friend heypaul could offer some advice there ... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Padded walls??
They're coming to take me away, ha ha, hehe, ho ho....
[Padded walls??
They're coming to take me away, ha ha, hehe, ho ho....]
Sarge, what group did that song? Perhaps Ian Dury & the Blockheads?
To be honest with you I have no idea!!
12/09/99
Watch out !! Bill Newkirk is a record collector !!!!
"They're coming to to take me away,Ha-Haaa!"
by Napoleon XIV debuted July 30,1966 on Warner Bros. records #5831
Reached #3 on the charts, charted for 5 weeks.
I WARNED YOU !!!
Bill Newkirk
You must be a CBS-FM 101.1 fan!!!
12/10/99
[You must be a CBS-FM 101.1 fan !!!]
Jeff,
CBS 101.1 and B-103 out here on the Island.
Another fact of Napoleon XIV , his real name is Jerry Samuels, a recording engineer and composer from , where else , New York!!
Bill Newkirk
Did you ever play the B side of that one
"Aaaah Ah, Yawa Em Ekat Ot Gnimoc Er'yeht"
The same song, just recorded backwards. Hilarious.
Wayne
Not to mention a Dr Demento fan! Speaking of which does ANYONE know where the good Dr is around here?
Thanks!
Ian Dury and the Blockheads were best remembered for their infamous 1979 smash "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick" (Stiff/Epic records; 3:40) and the follow-up "Reasons To Be Cheerful-Part III". Pretty strange stuff, those blokes. I can just see a video re-make of that one, with a trainload of rush-hour sardines dancing and moshing about and whacking each other with plastic rods. OUCH!
Wayne
Dancing an not falling down could be tricky - even at the normal super-slow speeds, the ride is not the smoothest. Padded walls and a thick rubber floor would do the trick, though. Padded walls could contribute to the atmosphere, too. Velvet, maybe?
Padded walls, men in white coats, and make the last stop Bellevue.
No, after all that drinking, the last stop should be 18th St on the Lex (or 91st St on the Broadway IRT). If you think you were disoriented when you got off the train, just wait and see the reaction of people once the train LEFT 18th St ....
--Mark
No, after all that drinking, the last stop should be 18th St on the Lex (or 91st St on the Broadway IRT). If you think you were disoriented when you got off the train, just wait and see the reaction of people once the train LEFT 18th St ....
Why not just have another Disco and more beer and more music at these stations. The colored disco lights could be shining on the multi-colored graffiti. When they've had enough, another partytrain could pick them up at the station.
12/08/99
Mark,
The real problem wouldn't be the alcohol but how to exit to the street !!
BTW - Get the tape yet?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, got the tape, am about 1/2 of the way through it. Very interesting ... some of the news sounds so "old" compared to what you hear on the radio today (the way it's reported, not the subject matter).
Many thanks again!
--Mark
Who'd need to dance? Just stand still and let the train move you. I get a chuckle thinking about using the condustors as DJ's. In addition to controling the doors they would have complete control over the music and the mood lighting. With your cover you would have access to the central beer system utilizing kegs under the train and taps in the interior and other drinks would be available at a mini-bar for those who wanted to pay for them. Another thing that makes trains perfect for parties is their modular nature. Each seperate car could have its own theme with different drinks and different music. If it got popular enough you could make reservations at any token booth and if you think the PT its self would make $$ just think about how much they could pull in from the Merchandising. I'm sure anybody can think of a great idea for a PT T-shirt in under 10 seconds.
Now wait a sec...themed trains would be rather nice, or at the very least, attractive lighting on the trains would be great. The fluorescents are so harsh and blindingly bright at nighttime.
Is there a subway version of the airline's "Mile High Club"???
Is there a subway version of the airline's "Mile High Club"???
If there is, I have a freind who actually had the unfortunate experience of realizing late at night while riding SEPTA that the couple at the other end of the car was, um... joining that 'club'...
12/07/99
This idea of a Party Train sounds like an updated version of the "Mineola". But it definiteley has the trappings of a SubTalk special!
Bill Newkirk
Has anyone else seen this? I just saw it last night. It was almost exactly what was discussed here. I almost wonder if one of CDNOW's Ad Execs is a SubTalk reader??
12/15/99
No, I haven't seen this commercial yet, but I'll watch out. NYC PARTY TRAIN!!, now he know what to do with those R-110's !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey....(hic),i'll drink (hic) to that...(hic) when do we (hic) start this ? (hic).....
I saw it too -- I WANT ROYALTIES!!!!
'though I can't remember if I saw any beer taps or not.
While the nation mourns the 58th anniversary of the bombing of pearl harbour, some of are fellow subtalkers (possibly), along with politician Carolyn Mccarthy will be remembering another painful anniversary.
It was December 7, 1993 when gunman Colin Ferguson was on a pm rush LIRR commuter train, when he took out a gun and started shooting at random people. This incident wounded at least 17 people, some not surviving. In addition to this being a major transit tragedy, the trial got lots of attention because ferguson was his own lawyer in his trial. This meant he was questioning the witnesses that he shot. It was a painful trial, thank goodness he is in jail. -Nick
I've wondered whether, a couple of decades from now, Colin Ferguson might walk out of prison. Maybe even get a musical, like Paul Simon did for the "Capeman."
If you think it's impossible, even Sirhan Sirhan gets parole hearings ever few years. I wonder if Charles Manson does?
Yes on Manson, but the California Parole Board turns him down every time. He pulls his psychotic behavior act on them all the time. He probably knows he's never getting out but enjoys giving the media a show. While I'm in favor of cameras in the courtrooms, Manson is a good example for opponents of cameras to site.
Anyone in Calif who has a life sentence gets a Parole hearing every 2-3 years, after their first one. It depends on how soon after the initial incarceration date is when they get one. could be anywhere from 7 years minimun and up, depending when they were sentenced since the laws change so many times
Manson does get parole hearings, but he knows he not likely to ever be released. Last time around he said he didn't even want to bother trying, he was too busy working on his web site!
Sirhan Sirhan, like several other people convicted of high-profile assasinations, probably deserves to get a new trial, but that doesn't seem too likley either.
Rest in Peace, the Merillon Ave 6.
Perhaps LIRR train 1250 can sound its horn tonight as it passes by Merillon Avenue in rememberance
Let's get it straight. Furgeson wasn't shooting at "random" people. He was shooting at white people. He was targeting white people. He killed only white people.
[Let's get it straight. Furgeson wasn't shooting at "random" people. He was shooting at white people. He was targeting white people. He killed only white people.]
IIRC one of the six fatalities was an Asian female. My guess is that Ferguson may have intended to target only whites, but once he started pulling the trigger he wasn't too concerned about who actually got shot.
Getting back from Colin Ferguson to Pearl Harbor, there was a show on Japanese atrocities against POW's the other day on the History Channel that was very chilling. It was alot more than just the Bataan Death March. About 25% of Allied Prisoners of the Japanese died in captivity, with forced labor and medical experiments. According to the show Japan has never officially acknowleged it either and is in extreme denial. Think about that when you get into your Nissans, Toyotas, Honda cars & Bikes, and Kawasaki bikes and subways!!
Think about this: in exchange for not prosecuting the doctors who ran the experiments, the Japanese agreed to give the Americans all their research into biological weapons shortly after the surrender in 1945. Most of the "expreiments" done by these Japanse doctors would make Nazi war crimes look laughable in comparison. We are not totally innocent in these things...
I don't know about the experiments the Japanese conducted during WWII, but there was a big ethical debate about whether scientific information that Nazi "doctors" gained from their work could be used or not, considering its source.
I don't recall how this played out, but I would be surprised if any such knowledge was a very good bargaining chip for any of the perpetrators.
OTOH, if you were Werner von Braun, it was somehow overlooked that you "aimed for the stars" but hit London.
I was recently listening to a show on NPR in which they said that, grotesquely, the Brits didn't want to acknowledge Einstein's work on relativity (for which the Brits apparently provided the first proof) because, while Einstein was still in Germany, he was regarded as an "enemy scientist."
Isn't politics wonderful?
Einstein Got out of Germany, a few years before the War began in 36-37. The war began On 9/1/39
Just think if Einstein had stayed in Germany and wasn't persecuted, and Enrico Fermi, who split the atom, stayed in Italy. Do you think things might have been different? Thank God they didn't.
But could Hitler have come to power with out using the Jews as scapegoats and uniting Germany in their hatred?
Probably yes. Hitler was almost guaranteed an audience of angry Germans when Clemenceau, Orlando and George at Versailles put together a treaty that was loaded with revenge. The folly of the victors.
Chris: After MacArthur made sure Generals Yamashita and Homma were tried and executed in the Philippines in 1946, and that the top 15 Japanese civilian and military leaders were tried in Tokyo between 1946-1948, he went real easy on many other war criminals. We tried and executed far more German Nazis than Japanese Fascists, which should help shut u p those who might say there was racism involved with our dropping of two A-Bombs on Japan. They weren't ready or tested by the time the Krauts gave up. We would have dropped them on Germany if he had them and needed to. As for Colin Ferguson, have you ever heard of white trash? Well, he's black trash. Nothing more than a rotten, good for nothing, prejudiced bigot. He's not even worth mentioning
No, he targeted only white people. If an asian female was shot, then she must have gotten in the way. Furgeson has stated that he wanted to kill white people only.
To a racist, an Asian person can be whatever you want him/her to be.
To a white racist, an Asian looks sufficiently foreign.
To a black racist like Ferguson, an Asian looks quite white enough.
The point is, though, that a person of any color racist enough to injure another is not playing with a full deck, so rational analysis of motives lacks something.
i just shoot RAILFAN VIDIEOS Q E A 2 5 7 not people!!!
so get mad because thats all i shoot nyc subway cars etc!!!
Yep, He started shooting because "the 2 train was always late".......
3TM. 101St. Connection to the Q23. The next station will be 108St. Transfer to the Q48. Stand Clear........
12/08/99
Colin Ferguson goes down in history as the only passenger to get car numbers changed.
Because of the massacre: LIRR M-3....was 9891-92.....now 9945-46.
9892 was the car it all happened in.
Bill Newkirk
This is a silly question, I know, but I'm curious, with the R142 order about to recycle R16 unit numbers - are unit numbers which are involved in accidents that result in fatalities "retired" by NYCT? If so, then would #6304 qualify for such treatment, and the first R142 "bunch" go 6300-01-02-03-05?
As I remember, R40M #4461, under repair, is to get a new number - #4260.
Wayne
It is not a silly question. My guess is that they would not leave out a car number because of a customer fatality--- instead they might put a black sticker under the car number, perhaps in the shape of a cross.
It is not a silly question. My guess is that they would not leave out a car number because of a customer fatality--- instead they might put a black sticker under the car number, perhaps in the shape of a cross.
I don't think Wayne was talking about human fatalities on board a subway car. I think he was talking about a car getting totaled in a wreck.
Or getting punched out by a BMT standard...
Or getting punched out by a BMT standard...
Or getting "punched out" by the World's Heavyweight Champion - The D-Type!
I wouldn't want my money on the D-Types on a bout between them and BMT Standards - the Standards were tougher than just about anything else that ever ran. NOTHING could topple a train of them. Just ask R27 #8217.
Wayne
I wouldn't want my money on the D-Types on a bout between them and BMT Standards - the Standards were tougher than just about anything else that ever ran. NOTHING could topple a train of them. Just ask R27 #8217.
Wayne
The R-27 is a flimsy tin can, similar to the R-16. Did you ever see a photo of the GG wreck at Roosevelt Ave. in 1970? That was an R-16. TIN CAN! The D-Types were the heaviest cars in the BMT fleet. Believe me, I'm not putting down the A/B's. Its just the facts.
12/08/99
R-27/30's TIN CANS ? Then how does that compare with the stainles
steel fleet ?
Bill Newkirk
12/08/99
R-27/30's TIN CANS ? Then how does that compare with the stainles
steel fleet ?
Bill Newkirk
Beer Cans!
Nothing is as solid as the pre-war cars were.
Yes, I saw photos from several angles, plus the one taken at Jamaica Yard of R16 #6304 after her disembowelment. One of my previous posts (Comparing Two Accidents, or something to that effect) describes my own observations of the damage done to that car. A concrete curtain wall can mangle LAHT or Carbon Steel but to stainless steel - it's even worse. Examples of this effect include #1437, #1439, #1440, and #5282. Also - R10 #3333 suffered a similar fate.
If you REALLY want to talk about tin cans, just look at the LIRR's M-1 and M-3 cars. No resistance whatsoever to side impact, i.e. Original M-1 #9332 and mostly Original M-1 #9625.
I did see a picture of D Types #6045B and #6045C and I believe #6078A, after they mixed it up near Coney Island a long long time ago. They doubtless could only defeat each other. Don't think there was ever really a "Clash Of The Titans", i.e. an accident involving AB Type BMT Standards and D Type Triplexes.
Wayne
Yes, I saw photos from several angles, plus the one taken at Jamaica Yard of R16 #6304 after her disembowelment. One of my previous posts (Comparing Two Accidents, or something to that effect) describes my own observations of the damage done to that car. A concrete curtain wall can mangle LAHT or Carbon Steel but to stainless steel - it's even worse. Examples of this effect include #1437, #1439, #1440, and #5282. Also - R10 #3333 suffered a similar fate.
If you REALLY want to talk about tin cans, just look at the LIRR's M-1 and M-3 cars. No resistance whatsoever to side impact, i.e. Original M-1 #9332 and mostly Original M-1 #9625.
I did see a picture of D Types #6045B and #6045C and I believe #6078A, after they mixed it up near Coney Island a long long time ago. They doubtless could only defeat each other. Don't think there was ever really a "Clash Of The Titans", i.e. an accident involving AB Type BMT Standards and D Type Triplexes.
Wayne
I refer to stainless steel equipment as beer cans. A guy by the name of Miles Dixon used to say that the R-44's were made of bubble gum and Reynolds Wrap. I don't think that any post war equipment could stand up to any pre-war (steel) equipment. A Lo-V would mash a redbird, a D-Type or an A/B would mash an R-16 or 27. I think an R-1/9 would mash an R-16 or 27. I don't even want to get into the stainless steel equipment. Especially the ones with the fiberglass fronts (sorry, Mr. Slant R-40). The R-32's may be like a cat with 9 lives operationally, but I'd hate to see the aftermath of one in a wreck.
No, I meant customer/employee fatalities. Some wrecks are just that - wrecks - I wouldn't hang #5282's number up even though it was a gruesome accident. Nobody was killed there. #1437, #1440, #6304, #4461, the R21 from the Utica Avenue #2 line accident of 1981, and the like is what I meant.
Wayne
Wayne: I have never heard of this being done. I doubt if anyone would remember the particular car number unless they had a personal reason to do so. Also this was cause confusion down the line having say a 200 car order numbered 6300 to 6403.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wayne: I have never heard of this being done. I doubt if anyone would remember the particular car number unless they had a personal reason to do so. Also this was cause confusion down the line having say a 200 car order numbered 6300 to 6403.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah. It doesn't make any sense to retire a car number just because somebody died on board. After all, this isn't baseball. The Yankees have so many retired numbers, that's why most of today's players have such high numbers. In baseball, they give honor to a great player by retiring his number. Nobody knows the average Joe who died in a subway car. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the BRT changed the car numbers of the cars that survived the Malbone St. wreck. They were just put back into service.
As soon as the BRT got the Malbone Wreck cars in the shop, they were estimating the cost of repairs. The only one they counted as a total loss was Car 100. They actually estimated a repair cost (labor, materials) for Car 80--the one which was sheared in half diagonally, but obviously thought better of it later, since the car was simply scrapped.
AFAIK, the BRT/BMT didn't ever have another car 80 or 100, but that's not so remarkable--they went to all 4-digit numbering for new equipment anyway.
People don't pay so much attention to "hoodoo" names/numbers as they used to. Boston actually passed an ordinance that the name "Cocoanut Grove" could not be applied to a business after the fire disaster there. And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic" or "Morro Castle."
Nor will they name soup "Bon Vivant."
OTOH, no one worries about going to the MGM Grand Hotel or using Tylenol.
[People don't pay so much attention to "hoodoo" names/numbers as they used to. Boston actually passed an ordinance that the name "Cocoanut Grove" could not be applied to a business after the fire disaster there. And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic" or "Morro Castle."]
On the other hand, there's a Lusitania Savings Bank in Newark.
> And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic"
And, someone's building a replica Titanic. Why build a replica for the purpose of attracting the curious and NOT name it Titanic?
-Dave
I've always wanted to open a motel and call it "Bates Motel" with a big sign that says "take a shower here"
A shower in every room and every desk clerk is named "Norman" Great idea. Dial M
And, someone's building a replica Titanic. Why build a replica for the purpose of attracting the curious and NOT name it Titanic?
-Dave
Yeah! Right?
I wonder is there is another Triangle Shirt Company out there somewhere.
[People don't pay so much attention to "hoodoo" names/numbers as they used to. Boston actually passed an ordinance that the name "Cocoanut Grove" could not be applied to a business after the fire disaster there. And noone's going to name their shiny new cruise ship "Titanic" or "Morro Castle."]
On the other hand, there's a Lusitania Savings Bank in Newark.
There is an old neighborhood of rich homes in the Miami area named Cocoanut Grove. Fact is, it is a separate municipality from Miami. I don't see them changing the name from Cocoanut Grove to something else. hey, they didn't change the name of Pearl Harbor either. The Japanese didn't change the names of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either.
As soon as the BRT got the Malbone Wreck cars in the shop, they were estimating the cost of repairs. The only one they counted as a total loss was Car 100. They actually estimated a repair cost (labor, materials) for Car 80--the one which was sheared in half diagonally, but obviously thought better of it later, since the car was simply scrapped.
AFAIK, the BRT/BMT didn't ever have another car 80 or 100, but that's not so remarkable--they went to all 4-digit numbering for new equipment anyway.
The BRT/BMT didn't recycle any numbers because they didn't replace anything. They kept ordering new equipment for expansion. If you notice, the number series used for the BU's was the same number series used for the IRT el cars, and also for the IND's R-1/9's--typically starting with 100. The IRT and BRT did have some double-digit cars, like #80 that you mentioned. When the IND was built, they didn't say "we can't use #100 because that was the infamous Malbone wreck car". No, 100 was the first R-1, which became a museum car. My point is that the idea of retiring car numbers because of a death or deaths, or because of some wreck, or some unpleasant incident is absurd. I can fully understand not building another Challanger shuttle, but for subway cars?
If you notice, the number series used for the BU's was the same number series used for the IRT el cars, and also for the IND's R-1/9's--typically starting with 100.
Of course. These were separate companies. Even within the same company there was a lot of number overlap for different kinds of equipment. Noone thought it a problem to have two answers to the question: what is BMT #7? (answer: an L trailer and a trolley locomotive). Or what is #1001 (c.1938)? (a convertible L motor, a PCC trolley and an electric bus).
Even now, the only reason you couldn't have a BMT-IND subway car 1000 and an IRT 1000 is that it might louse up the TA's equipment database.
Even now, the only reason you couldn't have a BMT-IND subway car 1000 and an IRT 1000 is that it might louse up the TA's equipment database.
Yeah! Back in the old days of the BMT, IRT and IND as separate entities, they didn't have any 'puters.
You are correct. There were R-4 #726 and #728, as well as R46 #726 and #728.
Wayne
They may not have retired the car numbers in the Malbone wreck, but they did retire the Malbone name, save for a short half-block stretch west of New York Avenue. It does seem like Empire Boulevard is a much more appropriate same for such a major thoroughfare.
After Pan Am Flight 103 was destroyed over Lockerbie, the airline changed the flight number slightly, I think to Flight 3 or 03.
As a politically correct sidenote, the NBA changed Washington D.C.'s team name from the Bullets to the Wizards. Saint John's team was changed from the Red Devils to the Red Storm. It's probably only a matter of time before all teams with variations of native American names are changed. Ready for the Washington Fillibusters, Atlanta Techies and Cleveland Laid-off Steelworkers?
As a politically correct sidenote, the NBA changed Washington D.C.'s team name from the Bullets to the Wizards. Saint John's team was changed from the Red Devils to the Red Storm. It's probably only a matter of time before all teams with variations of native American names are changed. Ready for the Washington Fillibusters, Atlanta Techies and Cleveland Laid-off Steelworkers?
When that happens, I'm through with sports.
12/12/99
Mr.Fein,
I believe the St.Johns team was called the "Red Men" before change to the "Red Storm". Something of a slant against Native Americas was the cause for name change.
Bill Newkirk
I believe the St.Johns team was called the "Red Men" before change to the "Red Storm". Something of a slant against Native Americas was the cause for name change.
In that case, the Atlants Braves and Cleveland Indians need to change their names. I'd be for anything to get rid of the Atlanta tomahawk chop. That is so annoying!
I believe the St.Johns team was called the "Red Men" before change to the "Red Storm". Something of a slant against Native Americas was the cause for name change.
In that case, the Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians need to change their names. I'd be for anything to get rid of the Atlanta tomahawk chop. That is so annoying!
2 line accident at Utica? Please elaborate..........
3TM
Shea Stadium. The next station will be Main St. Transfer and connection to the Q14,Q16,Q20a,Q20b,Q25,Q34,Q44,Q65,Q66, and QBx1.
Good question. I would say no. The R142s are an entirely different breed of animal. They have nothing to do with the accident that 6304 had with 4501 some years ago. Do you consider the accident at Roosevelt to be more severe than what had occurred at the Willy B? I'm just curious.
Every time you had an accident and car numbers had to be retired, I'd think we'd have a serious problem. R142s are arranged into 5 car sets simply for the logistics of arranging cars. Of course, if there's an R142 involved in an accident (always a possibility), a car number might be retired depending on whether or not the car would be repaired and put on the road. For all we know, two cars could be spliced together and make a new car (remember 6494 and 8217?). There are numerous R40s and R42s missing in action, so retiring a number wouldn't be a big deal. Retiring 4461's number came because the car was fitted with a slant nose. The folks at Coney Island have the right idea. Even if the car remained a modified unit, it's possible they could have retired the number anyway (my understanding at least, since the personnel associated the car with the accident). I certainly would have considering the fact that one of NYCT's own operating personnel was crushed in the cab. That enough for most to totally forget about a horrendous incident as that. Given the opportunity to forget, those affected by the accident would be able to forget by retiring a number. No R40 Mod has ever had a slant nose. She's undergoing a sex change and becoming a he. I've never heard of a car with a generator having an odd number in a married pair.
They don't necessarily have to retire the number, but it's always a possibility depending on the situation in question (it's a not a standard practice, I don't think). If that were the case, then I would have retired 1391's number (firebombing incident), or even 3221 (the Mad bomber incident on the R10).
In summary, the opportunity arose to retire 4461's number arose, and it was taken.
-Stef
I would rank the R16 vs. R40M accident at Roosevelt Avenue as at least as severe as the Williamsburgh Bridge accident, if not more so, judging by the amount of damage to R16 #6304. The damage to R40M #4501 was not as severe as either of the two cars involved in the Williamsburgh Bridge accident (R42 #4664; R40M #4461) but it was substantial enough to put the unit out of action for well over a year. The damage to R16 #6304 surpassed that of R42 #4664. Forty feet of the left side of the car shorn away, roof and ceiling down, floor ripped up, half the front end obliterated - a total wreck. #4664 had seven feet of true telescoping plus an additional ten feet of buckling/floor damage/frame damage. Photos taken after the wreck inside this car show it substantially intact forward of the #1/#8 doors. Similar body damage occurred to R40M #4461 but the anticlimber absorbed the impact and spared the frame proper.
I'd have to sum it up by saying the Roosevelt Avenue incident was worse in terms of damage and casualties. The Union Square incident of 1991 tops them all (excluding Malbone Street) except the Times Square Lo-V crash of 1928.
Wayne
I would be inclined to give that a flat "no," at least insofar as new car orders being purchased in the same number series.
Number superstition in general didn't stop NYC systems from having cars numbered "666" or "1313". The City had no problem having new cars numbered "100", the deadliest car in Malbone Street.
The LIRR did renumber the refurbished car pair from the Colin Ferguson murders, to the top of the number series. That may have been more because the operating personnel remember rather than the passengers. OTOH, they didn't change the starting time of the fatal train until years later. It's now the 6:35p Penn-Hicksville, instead of the 6:33. In fact, both the RR and psychologists were encouraging people to ride the fatal train the very next day--kind of like getting back on a horse after you fell, I guess.
But there is one number anamoly I wonder about--the LIRR has no train 1. Train 1 would have been a Montauk train, and I've wondered for years why there is a train 2 and a train 3, but no #1. Even going back to my 1928 LIRR table there is no train 1.
I thought there may have been a train 1 which was discontinued, and they left the number open in case they wanted to run a really early train again, but a few years ago they shifted the number system around, so that now Babylon electrics use the lowest number series--and there is still a train 2 but no train 1.
Does anyone know if this is superstition or if there's a material explantion?
The LIRR isn't the only one to do this. It avoids confusion in the passenger's mind - 28/29 for the westbound/eastbound rather than 29/30, for example - both start with 2 rather than one with a 2 and one with a 3. Even more so at 99/100 - the RR would rather use 98/99 or 100/101. And in order to do that for all paired passenger service, which in the old days was all of it, there was no train 1.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why reuse car numbers at all? Why not make the R-142 series start with, say, 10000? They're only car numbers, right? - unique identifiers for subway cars so items can be tracked for each car and so each car has its own identity?
Maybe car tracking software is limited to 4 digits?
--Marl
Why reuse car numbers at all? Why not make the R-142 series start with, say, 10000? They're only car numbers, right? - unique identifiers for subway cars so items can be tracked for each car and so each car has its own identity?
Maybe car tracking software is limited to 4 digits?
At the rate that the TA replaces rolling stock, it wouldn't be too long before we see car #1000000.
Which,of course,brings up the question of why the IND order started with 100 (of course the answer is that two digit #s were reserved for work equipment,right??)....
12/08/99
Yeah but the current 4 digit numbering scheme is a TA thing as of late. Remember the old R-44 and 46 numbers?
Bill Newkirk
I still hear about a possible NYCTA strike happening. While I really feel TA workers do deserve better, there are alot of poor working class (ie garment workers, servants) who depend on transit for their
money. Without getting to work, lots of people may starve.
For instance, what are all those low wage resteruant workers going to do if their N20/21 terminates at Great Neck and have to get to Flushing,Queens? Will the LIRR still run in Queens and into NYC, and will they still charge a packed train of low income workers full fare?
There are alot of people who will not have the choice of a car to get to work, and they must to feed their families with what little cash they earn. Just think of them before going on strike.
I can just imagine the strike result, forcing low wage workers to walk
up to 5 miles to work. All efforts must be made to prevent this from happening, by the MTA and the TA workers.
Last strike LIRR terminated at Jamacia so the brother and sisters of the same union did not have to cross picket lines.
did the Port Wash. line go into Penn during the last strike?
I don't think any train went into Penn during the strike. But one thing I'm certain of, no P.W. trains went into Flatbush!!!
The key statement applies to the MTA. The MTA first offered us 13.2% for a four year contract. The second offer was 9% over four years. The MTA is bargaining in BAD faith. Period. Any fallout over this strike you should direct to the overpaid members of the MTA board, the president and the governor of the state of NY. The contract as proposed will institute widespread privatization and a seriuos breach of the civil service as we know it today. There is a lot at stake, not just for us but for anyone desiring to get their foot into a good paying job with decent medical benefits. The Transport Worker's Union is under a lot of pressure because we are the first of the contracts to be signed and all the other city unions are waiting on us; we set the stage. We risk losing our jobs whether we sign on the dotted line or we walk. I already filed a resume with two other railroads. See you on the picket line.
There will be another transit rally on Wednesday starting at 3:30PM at 43rd and Madison. Help us avert a strike. If you can support your local cab drivers by tips for good service, please support us and your future employment prospectives by rallying with us. Also write your mayor, governor and congressmen and women that you recognize the importance of the men and women who operate, service and overhaul the rails, cars, and buses that carry you to your work and livelyhood. Tell TA management that YOU don't want a strike either. The fallout from a possible strike affects the citizens and workers of the City of NY with extreme financial difficulty but it barely affects top TA Brass. They will get paid because they are driven to work in limosines while still collecting their $150,000+ a year. Write Virgil Conman and Lawrence Looter that they should stop taking from the taxpayers and give back to the working class. If we get stuck with the current proposal, there will be one lessemployment opportunity for you, your family and future grandchildren in the city of New York. Say no to a bad contract! Say no to privatization!
I'm from out of town, so this is the first I've heard about this labor issue. When would a strike occur if there is one?
- Jim
when do the far rockway R38 TRAINS run all the way from 207TH STREET
thru the GRANT STATION all the way across BROAD CHANNEL and all the
way to the end of the line FAR ROCKWAY??
and how about this during sone ( daylight hours please)
please respond here or my E-MAIL salaamallah@yahoo.com THANK YOU!!
Try during the rush hours...
I believe there is a General Order during midday hours pertaining to the North Channel bridge. I think there is a shuttle from Howard Beach to Far Rockaway.Check the MTA site for details. When there is no G.O. in effect, You just have to take your chances and wait. I will tell you that I've seen R38s with Far Rock signs fairly recently.
I live right along the Far Rockaway el, so believe me, the R38s run everyday. But there is a GO on the Far Rockaway line during weekdays (9a - 3p) where all "A" trains run through to Lefferts Blvd. only. You would have to catch a shuttle from Rockaway Blvd.
Also, they tend to run majority R44s during the weekdays anyway. I have noticed that on Weekends they seem to run majority R38s so you might want to try weekends.
You must look out for GOs on the weekends too.
Two weeks ago, they were running shuttle bus service from Rockaway Blvd. to B. 98th St. Sta.
the perfect subway car is ANY SUBWAY CAR THAT HAS A RAILFAN SEE
DIRECTLY ANT THE FRONT TRACKS IN FRONT OF YOU RAIL FAN WINDOW!!
example R1 R4 thru R9 all the way even to an r38 REDBIRDS ETC...
some r 40 types GET BY but thats all !!!
anyway there it is RAIL FAN WINDOW or the subway car is USELESS!!
salaamallah@yahoo,com thank you !!!
SEPTA now has both "O" and "HO" scale models of their Comet II
(push-pull) commuter cars and AEM7 Locomotives for sale at the Transit
Museum Store. As for the HO scale AEM7's, they are only getting 40 of
those in, so anyone interested in one, you must put your name in to
reserve one. As of this past Friday, there were 20 names, including
mine on the reserve list. I did buy one O scale AEM7 and car early
last week. The guy at the store told me that they are hoping to have
models of the Market-Frankford Line M-3's (Almond Joys) by this time
next year. As for commuter trains, I'm hoping to someday see models
of the Silverliners made (Silverliner II's, III's, and IV's).
M3 models in HO scale? Cool!
Do you know who the manufacturer might be?
--Mark
I am looking for books on Commuter Rail Ops ,,there was book printed recently ,,I have this one
Buses
LRV
Subway
-------books available
?????
Steve
M-3 models? You're kidding?? Powered?
Back around 1984-1986, I remember seeing a series of Levi's 501 jeans
commercials that had scenes shot in New York City. One commercial
started out with a scene that showed several people walking down what
appeared to be stairs to an elevated station. The railings on these
stairs were very ornate, which did not look like the railings on NYC's
existing el stations, which now leads me to believe that the scene was
shot on either Metro North's 125th St. Station, or the stairways at
155th St. and 8th Ave. (that lead up to the Macombs Dam Bridge viaduct
and are now closed off). Does anyone here recall seeing this
commercial back in the 1980's? If so, can you tell me where this
stairway scene was shot? Was it in fact an el station??? The
commercial's jingle also had a rap beat to it ("Levi's 501 Blues"),
which I imagine was because of the breakdancing craze that was popular
at the time. Hope someone can help me with this, as I've been wanting
to know about this "el scene" ever since I first saw this commercial.
Back around 1984-1986, I remember seeing a series of Levi's 501 jeans
commercials that had scenes shot in New York City. One commercial
started out with a scene that showed several people walking down what
appeared to be stairs to an elevated station. The railings on these
stairs were very ornate, which did not look like the railings on NYC's
existing el stations, which now leads me to believe that the scene was
shot on either Metro North's 125th St. Station, or the stairways at
155th St. and 8th Ave. (that lead up to the Macombs Dam Bridge viaduct
and are now closed off). Does anyone here recall seeing this
commercial back in the 1980's? If so, can you tell me where this
stairway scene was shot? Was it in fact an el station??? The
commercial's jingle also had a rap beat to it ("Levi's 501 Blues"),
which I imagine was because of the breakdancing craze that was popular
at the time. Hope someone can help me with this, as I've been wanting
to know about this "el scene" ever since I first saw this commercial.
I don't remember the commercial, but there was an ornate stairway leading down from the original Fulton St. El structure at the Franklin Ave. station on the shuttle.
True, but the odds of this being a film site for a commercial in 1984/86 (height of the crack wars) is about impossible as you could get.
You are correct. The scenes were shot on the stairways to the McCombs Dam Bridge.
Wow. Thank the train gods! I just stumbled on this message board and have a few questions to air so please forgive me if some of these have been answered before. Here goes:
1. When will we see the R-142's in service?
2. How often and when do the R-110A/B usually operate for revenue service?
3. When will we see the new MU's for the LIRR by Bombardier (if I'm not mistaken) and why do they look exactly the same as current models? (picture in Railway Gazette)
4. This summer I worked for a TA and got to read cool mags like Metro, Metro Report, Railway Gazette, and others. How can an ordinary consumer gain access to these magazines?
5. Will express service ever run on the N,R lines? (some days I could really use it) When did the Q stop using those tracks?
6. Will we ever see a 2nd Ave subway line in New York
and finally I'm still waiting for my station by station description of atlanta's MARTA on nycsubway.org. I hope to especially see pics of their new Breda trains when they begin to arrive. Whew. If anyone can answer any of these questions for me I would be grateful. Thanks
M. Tolbert
> and finally I'm still waiting for my station by station description
> of atlanta's MARTA on nycsubway.org.
First I've heard of it-- did you send me such a guide? I don't recall receiving it.
-Dave
not much to it NO RAILFAN WINDOWS slow computer push button trains that brake and accelerate throwing you back and fourth like a yo yo
lon long long long long station waits service 6 am to 10 pm
cheap paper transit cards and you have to swipe them on the bus !!!
the trains nad buses are not coorindinated!!!!
weekend service with only two car trains even with crowds!!!!
after tyhe braves games no service after 11 pm turnstiles that eat your paper transcard then you are to blame!!! your car gets the denver boot even after you pay and you get no reciept proff of payment and
then they tow your car away from the parking lot after you paid!!
the martin luther king station and may others WITH NO BENCHES OR ANY
SEATS AT ALL!!
no stations up north on the georga 400 because those BIGOTS UP THERE
BELIEVE ALL TRAIN RIDERS ARE MINORITIES AND CRIME SPREADERS !! etc
and on and on i hated the MARTA TRASNSIT SYSTEM IN ATLANTA GLAD I DONT LIVE THERE ANY MORE GOOD RIDDANCE !!@!!
not much to it NO RAILFAN WINDOWS slow computer push button trains that brake and accelerate throwing you back and fourth like a yo yo
lon long long long long station waits service 6 am to 10 pm
cheap paper transit cards and you have to swipe them on the bus !!!
the trains nad buses are not coorindinated!!!!
weekend service with only two car trains even with crowds!!!!
after tyhe braves games no service after 11 pm turnstiles that eat your paper transcard then you are to blame!!! your car gets the denver boot even after you pay and you get no reciept proff of payment and
then they tow your car away from the parking lot after you paid!!
the martin luther king station and may others WITH NO BENCHES OR ANY
SEATS AT ALL!!
no stations up north on the georga 400 because those BIGOTS UP THERE
BELIEVE ALL TRAIN RIDERS ARE MINORITIES AND CRIME SPREADERS !! etc
and on and on i hated the MARTA TRASNSIT SYSTEM IN ATLANTA GLAD I DONT LIVE THERE ANY MORE GOOD RIDDANCE !!@!!
Some corrections are needed:
First: there IS service on GA 300. The line to Buckhead, Medical Center and Dunwoody run along 400! There is an extension due to open late 2000 to Sandy Springs and North Springs- both right at 400!
Second: Race- MARTA's service area is limited to Fulton and DeKalb Counties. There is some out of area service at a premium fare such as the Six Flags Bus service . I have some family in Marietta (CObb County).Cobb decided to form its own bus company (Cobb COunty Transit[CCT]- operated by ATE.) CCT goes into Atlanta- connects at Arts Center. There used to be service to Lindberg but that got canceled.
I have vacationed in Atlanta numerous times and have noted mixed racial ridership on MARTA. Why do we have to bring race into this board. While it is not NYC, they have grown and as a new system (Since the 1970s) they do have growing pains.
ps- I do not now or at any previous time have any employment relation with MARTA or CCT.
deny the bigots who say the undesirables that meens poor folks and
blacks etc.... paper cards not plastic ones the nioghtmares on the marta buses having to slide a paper transit cards in the rain
no seats or benches in the martin luther king station and many others
the denver boot being used on your car even after you paid!!
no proff of payment or reciept system at all!!@!!
and the limited time of service 9 to 5
two car trains after an hour wait on weekends even with packed stations!!
a computer controlled trains throwing you back and fourthj like a yo
yo!!! slow r68 hippo type cars NO RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!!
long long long long long long waits at rail stations!!!
no coordinations with bus services !!! paper transit cards then
accuse the riders of operating counterfit cards when they fail!!
CAN I GO ON AND ON ??? GLAD I DONT LIVER THERE ANYMORE!!
Mike,
Welcome to SubTalk. You ask great questions. Questions so great, that our host Dave along with help from some of us has prepared a Frequently Asked Questions section of the site. But beware! Most of us don't work for NYCTA, and questions about future operations are mainly speculation. The good news is that when something really happens, you'll likely find out about it first here on SubTalk.
1. When will we see the R-142's in service?
The first R-142As arrived by ship last Thursday. Figure first revenue service 9 months to a year off.
2. How often and when do the R-110A/B usually operate for revenue service?
Not very often.
3. When will we see the new MU's for the LIRR by Bombardier (if I'm not mistaken) and why do they look exactly the same as current models? (picture in Railway Gazette)
???????????????
4. This summer I worked for a TA and got to read cool mags like Metro, Metro Report, Railway Gazette, and others. How can an ordinary consumer gain access to these magazines?
While those mags are usually free to managers in the trade, they do have regular subscription rates. Most also have on-line editions.
5. Will express service ever run on the N,R lines? (some days I could really use it) When did the Q stop using those tracks?
Yes it will return - maybe?
6. Will we ever see a 2nd Ave subway line in New York
Depends on how old you are and how much time you have to wait. I doubt if I'll se any more of the 2nd Ave subway than I already have.
Steve, you're too much the pessimist. We're about the same age (I'm probably a couple of years older than you are, but not much) and I expect to see at least the stubway open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve, you're too much the pessimist. We're about the same age (I'm probably a couple of years older than you are, but not much) and I expect to see at least the stubway open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, but we will probably be too old and feeble to ride it. We will probably see the opening on the news on TV from our beds in the nursing home.
Hey, the stubway will have to be ADA compliant, with wheelchair accessability though elevators, so we may be able to roll down there someday to take a peak at it.
I don't care if they have to wheel me down there on a gurney - I'll be there to photograph the new stations, IV's, no legs and all.
Speaking of no legs - has anyone seen Dolly Man lately? Wonder what ever became of him. He was the legless vet who used to roll on a four-wheeled dolly from car to car with his tin cup looking for donations. He was very good at it - I saw him roll right through the doors of an R38 whilst we were turning north from Fulton into Church Street (between Bway-Nassau and Chambers St-H&M) - many people did a double take (myself included) at the sight of him.
Wayne
Regarding question 6: If you believe what the MTA says, the "stubway" (63rd to 125th Street) will be finished "by 2015." (There doesn't seem to be any rush.) However, there will be crossovers built so that they could open to 86th Street earlier than that. (A sort of stub of a stub.)
Regarding question 5: This is still very tentative, but the "stubway" would continue south as a Broadway BMT express; possibly the R would be the new express. If that was done, there would be also be a new Broadway local to take over the service to 71st Street-Continental Ave. That's what the MTA's MESA study says, anyway.
during that span of time during 1998 when the 2 trains were reouted along the Lexington ave line (am -Pm directions) did it in any way help relieve any stress or overcrowding on the 4,5,and 6 lines or did it get in the way and actually delay the rest of the line? I always have known the Lex was way over crowded I was wondering since i completly avoided that area (unless it was nessesary)did it do good to add more trains or did it increase the slowing of them.
IIRC, they cut service on the 5 line corrosponding to the direction that rerouted 2 trains travelled up the East Side. As far as overcrowding went, it didn't seem to help. It did slow service, though,
I don't think anything will relieve the over crowding on the Lexington Ave line short of another line on the east side. Simple as that.
I remember that well working on the Pelham Line. Every morning My first trip out of Brooklyn Bridge I would beat at least 6 Express trains from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central. The Express service was moving very slowly on yellow signals when I was pasing one by one on the Local. On the radio the crews where complaining why there was no reroutes to the Local. Control even got into the act. They wanted Grand Central tower to reroute up the Local since there was a solid red line from Fulton St to 125 Street on 3 TK. Grand Central said they would not reroute because they didn't want to mess with the Local fearing it would jam up two tracks instead of one. I didn't mind because I was rolling free on greens so I was glad no reroutes where put ahead of me. On the PM Side it was alittle better going Downtown. One thing I can say TA payed a lot of late clears for the crews on the 2,4,5 Lines. On the WestSide I was told that the No.1 Trains were held up between 96 Street and 137 Street because on the No.3 Trains.
All I can say is I'm glad thats past us !
The situation you described at 96th St. used to be commonplace back in the days when both West Side branches had local and express trains.
Yes the 96 Street Bottle neck.
Do you think that the Laguardia Station on the N line, when it's built, will be open 24 hours?
I would rather say "if" it's built. I wouldn't hold my breath, especially if Peter Vallone becomes mayor.
ACtually, Vallone's electon as mayor would help this project. Vallone would no longer have to deal with a narrow interest, and it's in the city's interest as a whole to build this extension. And Astoria wouldn't have the unfair powerful representation it has today. Thank god for term limits.
Vallone would probably still favor his Astoria buds, and push instead for a spur off the 7 from 111th St. along the Grand Central to LaGuardia (never mind that the line is already jammed when it leaves Main Street)
That idea would do nothing for travel to Manhattan. It looks like it would be a spur from Main Street to the Airport and passangers would first go to Main Street and then get a #7 to Manhattan. That wouldn't be worth the cost of building the line. Extending the N line and have the train run express down the center to Queensboro Plaza is a better idea.
I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything to happen.
[That idea would do nothing for travel to Manhattan. It looks like it would be a spur from Main Street to the Airport and passangers would first go to Main Street and then get a #7 to Manhattan. That wouldn't be worth the cost of building the line. Extending the N line and have the train run express down the center to Queensboro Plaza is a better idea.
I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything to happen.]
Seems to me that both the N and #7 options are wrong. Who wants to lug their bags onto a subway to get to the airport? When you've spent the money for a plane ticket, it makes little sense to skimp on the cost of a cab.
Airport trains should run to the Amtrak line, and from there to Penn Station, GCT, and (one way or another) to a new downtown station.
(Run it on the Amtrak line)
We've been down this road before. If a line just serves the airport and Penn Station, one would have to take a subway or cab just to get to Penn. So why bother? A subway would provide many stops in Manhattan, right on the Broadway spine where all the hotels are.
In Queens a train that just served the airport would either have to be infrequent, very expensive, hugely subsidized, or all three. A train that served both Astoria and the airport could be more frequent with less subsidy.
The train is expected to serve those traveling alone with limited luggage, or flying into or out of LaGuardia for meetings without a night time stayover. Business travelers and the young another words, along with employees. LaGuardia is largely a "briefcase" airport. CEOs, large parties with extensive luggage, and those unfamiliar with the city and its transit system are better off in cabs and limos regardless.
The need for a luxury class one-seat ride, followed by a cab, makes more sense for JFK, which is further away and serves longer trips.
[CEOs, large parties with extensive luggage, and those unfamiliar with the city and its transit system are better off in cabs and limos regardless.]
Correct as to the latter two categories, but CEOs? They *should* ride the subway when in NYC (as should other wealthy/celebrity types) so they can see what us normal folks are like.
For those of you who never been overseas or to cities where they have light or heavy rail to Airports, You will be suprised how many people both locals and tourist use the train services. Hong Kong built a completely new service last year just to serve the Airport to the Central Cities, which cost a few billion (USD)
For those of you who never been overseas or to cities where they have light or heavy rail to Airports, You will be suprised how many people both locals and tourist use the train services. Hong Kong built a completely new service last year just to serve the Airport to the Central Cities, which cost a few billion (USD)
In other parts of the world (particularly in Europe) people don't have a love affair with the automobile like we do here in the States. In the countryside, they get around on railroads. In the cities, they get around with subways and trams (trolleys). They also use bicycles. Like idiots, we Americans tore up all our trolley tracks and replaced the trolley lines with buses. They didn't do that in Europe. They always appreciated their rail lines. Now, some 50 or 60 years later, we Americans are finally wising up to the fact that Light Rail is the future in surface transportation. I'm in my forties. I grew up in the city with the most extensive trolly network in the world (NYC). I rode my first trolley in Philadelphia when I was 18. I didn't know that they had them before then. I didn't know that Newark had them until a year later. Could you imagine? Growing up in the city that had the most extensive trolley network in the world, and having to go out-of-town to ride a trolley! Sickening!
12/08/99
I was told that Brooklyn had the largest trolley system in the U.S. Today?..Nothing! I guess that takes into consideration route miles and rolling stock.
Bill Newkirk
[I'm in my forties. I grew up in the city with the most extensive trolly network in the world (NYC).]
Getting rid of the City's trolleys was the mistake to end all mistakes.
"Getting rid of the City's trolleys was the mistake to end all mistakes."
They were gotten rid of because they couldn't swurve around traffic like buses. At the time they were built, very few vehicles were on the street. After the war, the economy got so good, almost everyone were able to afford a car. As a result, trolleys became obsolete.
N Broadway Line
[They were gotten rid of because they couldn't swurve around traffic like buses. At the time they were built, very few vehicles were on the street. After the war, the economy got so good, almost everyone were able to afford a car. As a result, trolleys became obsolete.]
Trolleys make little sense in suburbs or small cities, but anywhere there's bus service they make a *lot* of sense--comfortable, no local pollution, more capacious than buses. They were gotten rid of here because General Motors wrote provisions into its bus contracts requiring New York to rip the tracks up--something the City sued about years later.
Even today, not many people in New York own cars.
[For those of you who never been overseas or to cities where they have light or heavy rail to Airports, You will be suprised how many people both locals and tourist use the train services. Hong Kong built a completely new service last year just to serve the Airport to the Central Cities, which cost a few billion (USD)]
In my own experience the opposite is true--just a few stragglers.
A train to LGA would probably attract many of the 'day trippers' -- people who fly the shuttles to either Washington or Boston and return home that evening (or vice-versa, as Todd does flying in from Boston).
So long as it got out to the airport from Manhattan in decent time, it would be much cheaper than taking a cab and less of a hassle than the airport bus (unless you're headed to the Grand Central area anyway).
[A train to LGA would probably attract many of the 'day trippers' -- people who fly the shuttles to either Washington or Boston and return home that evening (or vice-versa, as Todd does flying in from Boston).
So long as it got out to the airport from Manhattan in decent time, it would be much cheaper than taking a cab and less of a hassle than the airport bus (unless you're headed to the Grand Central area anyway).]
A small segment, though. My guess is that the great majority of people who take the shuttle are businessmen whose expense are reimbursed, or who can well afford a cab trip if they aren't.
As I pointed out elsewhere, for the cost of building that extension to LaGuardia we could provide a free cab ride to every single passenger at the airport for three years. It takes more than a few commuters to justify that kind of expenditure!
[My guess is that the great majority of people who take the shuttle are businessmen whose expense are reimbursed, or who can well afford a cab trip if they aren't. ]
You're missing the main reason for business folks to choose the subway over the cab (or limo): It Saves Time! No more getting stuck in rush hour or leaving an hour early because all highways Laguardia are backed up. Just hop on the subway and get there in 20 minutes. As a frequent user of Laguardia airport, for me there would be no better way during the business day to get to the airport than by using the subway.
Everyone I know would ride the N to LaGuardia when traveling alone, especially to/from work in Manhattan. It hits all the hotels, and you could get to the airport with one change of train from almost everywhere. Lots of people I know have tried to take the subway to the bus -- once!
[Everyone I know would ride the N to LaGuardia when traveling alone, especially to/from work in Manhattan. It hits all the hotels, and you could get to the airport with one change of train from almost everywhere. Lots of people I know have tried to take the subway to the bus -- once!]
Including me. But unless they're travelling light during off-peak hours and happen to be near the N, I still say that most people won't lug their baggage onto the subway.
Another way to look at it: some people will take the subway--but a direct link would serve a much broader cross section of travellers with faster service at no more cost.
Everyone I know would ride the N to LaGuardia when traveling alone, especially to/from work in Manhattan. It hits all the hotels, and you could get to the airport with one change of train from almost everywhere. Lots of people I know have tried to take the subway to the bus -- once!
You also can't forget the 25,000 or so people who work at LaGuardia or in the area, many of whom are modestly paid. And the additional people who are not recorded as working with a NYC base but layover here (flight attendants, pilots). These are potential riders as well.
[You also can't forget the 25,000 or so people who work at LaGuardia or in the area, many of whom are modestly paid.]
_Modestly_ paid? Airline workers? In what universe?
My friend's brother is a baggage handler at JFK, and he makes almost $16 an hour with nothing but a high school diploma.
(Modestly paid airline workers?)
The people who work for the airlines are not modestly paid. But the people who work for the stores and services in the airport, and clean the airport, are.
My preferred service pattern would be to run the N to the airport, with three stops and more trains per hour, 24/7. If the extra trains are not needed in Brooklyn, they'd turn around at Whitehall.
To give those with luggage the option of avoiding rush hour crowds (and to provide a quick trip for one-day travelers), I'd use the center express track to run a special, higher fare train (collected on the train) once every 15 minutes. It would run inbound from 7 a.m. to, say, 2:30 and outbound from 2:30 to midnight, bypassing stations between the airport and Queens Plaza. It would always termiante at Whitehall.
At other times, frequent service will be more important than saving five minutes on the trip, so a separate train just to the airport would make little sense.
"they'd turn around at Whitehall."
Turning some (N's)of them around at 14th Street will be more preferable. It is where almost everyone gets off.
"To give those with luggage the option of avoiding rush hour crowds (and to provide a quick trip for one-day travelers), I'd use
the center express track to run a special, higher fare train (collected on the train) once every 15 minutes. It would run inbound
from 7 a.m. to, say, 2:30 and outbound from 2:30 to midnight, bypassing stations between the airport and Queens Plaza. It
would always termiante at Whitehall."
Special Airport Service (SAS) should be proposed during rush hours, however, 15 minutes is a little to long of a wait. I prefer a 5/10 minute heyway.
I don't know if it's a good idea to impose a higher fare on airport travelers and workers. Besides, what makes NY so special that it has to impose a higher fare for person making the airport as their destination?
N Broadway Local
Not a bad proposal, except that I'd emphasize the airline service and offer three premium services:
LGA-Whitehall high amenity superexpress via BMT 3rd track and express skipping all stops to a separate platform (already exists, I think) opening into a station in the spectacular Customs House with elevator service to the first floor and cab entrances on Bridge Street, with a cross platform transfer to other BMT services and eventual pedestrian/people mover links to the SI Ferry and the other downtown subways
LGA-GCT upper level via Amtrak/Penn/63rd St. tunnel; link to Lexington Avenue
LGA-Penn via Amtrak/Penn/32nd St. tunnel; links to West Side subway lines and PATH
Are there enough passengers to justify those three lines during daytime hours? I'd say so--LGA handles 60,000 passengers/day, many of whom come from the Manhattan business districts.
What about the extra fare--would passengers pay $5 say rather than the $1.50 a subway ride would cost?
The median income of a passenger at LGA is $91,360; only 82% have incomes over $40,000; fifty-two percent are travelling on business. Of the 22,000,000 annual passengers, only 575,000 utilized bus service.
But I'd also make LGA the terminus of the N, for POSS (plain old subway service), and run that on a 24-hour basis.
Moderate paid Airline workers. In the last 10 years the airlines have cut wages drastically. New hires are LUCKY to get 1-2 dollars over the minimun wage. People who have close to 20 years in the industry are offered great retirement benefits to get out so the carriers can hire low wage workers. Also in small cities, the Airlines contract out their workers to other companies, and in order for these companies to get the contract they have to be low bidder. If a airline only has 1 or 2 flights a day into a Airport, Guranteed that the person behind the desk is working for a contract company at low salarey and No benefits
[You also can't forget the 25,000 or so people who work at LaGuardia or in the area, many of whom are modestly paid. And the additional people who are not recorded as working with a NYC base but layover here (flight attendants, pilots). These are potential riders as well.]
True, and they would certainly use it. But is it worth $700,000,000 to provide that service?
That's why I don't believe in subsidies--they're incredibly inefficient.
The last time I flew into NYC I came in at LaGuardia on a Saturday Morning. I took one of the Airport Van Shuttles in to GCT since I was staying at the Hyatt on 42nd and Park. It took a hour just to go thru the Midtown Tunnel. I had a heavy bag, since I was bringing a lot of gifts for family. If the N train ran to the Airport or any train, I would have taken it. To tell you the truth. That day after a long trip from Hawaii to St Louis to NYC I did not feel like shleping bags up and down the stairs at Jackson Hts and GCT. But I usually take the subway in when I come into the city.
I've taken the subway once to Laguardia, and it was if not a disaster a real disappointment.
But a one hour trip isn't usual--sounds like you hit a traffic jam or took a bad route.
And since when does LaGuardia have direct access to the subway???
No wonder your trip to LGA on the subway was a real disappointment. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
It was not a hour trip. It took a hour to get thru the toll plaza and the tunnel. I was wondering why the Van driver did not take the Queensboro Bridge.
It's not really fair to compare New York to Hong Kong. HK has been isolated for so long that its economy is completely dependent on air and sea links; if you couldn't drive more than thirty miles before coming to a militarized border you probably wouldn't have a car either. It'll be interesting to see what happens to its role as entrepot as HK starts turning north to China.
It is fair to compare NY's economy to London's, however, and London has both subway and high-speed rail to its main airport (Heathrow), as well as commuter and national rail stations at its secondary airports, Gatwick and Luton, which they had the sense to build near existing rail lines.
Speaking of existing rail lines, has MTA ever thought about digging up Farmer's Boulevard to get to JFK instead of messing around on the Van Wyck? It's only about a mile and a half from Locust Manor LIRR.
[It is fair to compare NY's economy to London's, however, and London has both subway and high-speed rail to its main airport (Heathrow), as well as commuter and national rail stations at its secondary airports, Gatwick and Luton, which they had the sense to build near existing rail lines.]
I've taken the subway to Heathrow, and unless things have changed, almost nobody travels that way.
[I've taken the subway to Heathrow, and unless things have changed, almost nobody travels that way. ]
Josh, you're being ridiculous. Everyone knows that the Line from London to Heathrow is one of the most heavily travelled in the entire system. In fact, that line in particular has spurred other governments to build lines to their airports. Other highly used airport lines: DC's Yellow Line, Chicago's airport line, and Atlanta's MARTA line to the airport.
[Correct as to the latter two categories, but CEOs? They *should* ride the subway when in NYC (as should other wealthy/celebrity types) so they can see what us normal folks are like.]
And like the executives in Dilbert, laugh . . .
[We've been down this road before. If a line just serves the airport and Penn Station, one would have to take a subway or cab just to get to Penn. So why bother? A subway would provide many stops in Manhattan, right on the Broadway spine where all the hotels are.]
The hotel people are going to take cabs either way, because they have baggage. A train will work only if it's more convenient and saves time, and the subway doesn't fit that bill--it's fast enough to get to LGA by cab as it is, because the subway has too many intermediate stops. It'll be the Train to the Plane all over again.
[In Queens a train that just served the airport would either have to be infrequent, very expensive, hugely subsidized, or all three. A train that served both Astoria and the airport could be more frequent with less subsidy.]
But people won't take it, any more than they take the trains to airports in other cities--and whatever anybody says, people don't take them either; they're giant boondoggles because they're too slow, they're too difficult to figure out, people have to take a cab to get their luggage to a subway station anyway.
As to frequency of service, automate and run small trains. And note that I didn't say the new tracks couldn't be shared between subway and airport service. Some bureaucrats have, but, as I've said in the past, that's what senators are for.
[The train is expected to serve those traveling alone with limited luggage, or flying into or out of LaGuardia for meetings without a night time stayover. Business travelers and the young another words, along with employees. LaGuardia is largely a "briefcase" airport. CEOs, large parties with extensive luggage, and those unfamiliar with the city and its transit system are better off in cabs and limos regardless.]
I don't think business travellers of any kind will be interested in taking the subway. You'll end up with backpackers, college kids visiting mom and dad for the holidays, and airport employees. The latter might justify a subway stop, but it's hard to see how their case is more pressing than the people who use the Lexington Avenue.
The only real justification for building airport access that I can see is that businesses say they need it, and that means a service they can actually use.
[The need for a luxury class one-seat ride, followed by a cab, makes more sense for JFK, which is further away and serves longer trips.]
Its more necessary and the economics are better, to be sure. But as I said, it seems to me that the best way to address that is by sharing some track with the subway--and keeping seperate rolling stock and stations to provide the one stop ride that people will actually use. Otherwise, the subway people will come, but the air travellers will not.
I'm not sure it makes sense to compare the relative needs for the Second Avenue line and the LGA extension, given the way the funding seems to work. If we formulate the spending decision as a choice between the two projects based on their merits, we wind up with neither (as the $ gets spent in coming up with studies just to find cost/benefit criteria between the two). If we say we want both, and present the choice as between build and no-build in both cases, we might actually get one or the other of them.
This has to do with the logic of policy, of course, not with the logic of your argument, which is perfectly sound.
[I'm not sure it makes sense to compare the relative needs for the Second Avenue line and the LGA extension, given the way the funding seems to work. If we formulate the spending decision as a choice between the two projects based on their merits, we wind up with neither (as the $ gets spent in coming up with studies just to find cost/benefit criteria between the two). If we say we want both, and present the choice as between build and no-build in both cases, we might actually get one or the other of them.]
The more I watch it, the more I become convinced that our tranportation priorities are decided maybe 90% on the basis of seedy political greed--e.g., Pataki devoting funds to projects that benefit his suburban constituents--and 10% on the basis of the people who scream the loudest. The Second Avenue subway seems to be in the scream the loudest camp right now, and that's not good, because while the screams are getting louder and louder, it needs at least one accountable political powerhouse behind it. Screaming under those circumstances seems to lead to inefficient boondoggles rather than action, e.g., Sheldon Silver's $700 million to "begin work on" a full length Second Avenue subway equates to $700 million for nothing.
So I'd say you're right--under those circumstances, I'd rather see that $700 million go to a LaGuardia link. At least something would get done.
The current Mayor wants the LaGuardia link. The City Council has approved canceling other city funding to the MTA, and dedicating the city contribution to the LaGuardia link. Most people involved know the N extension is the best option. Only NIMBY and Vallone can stop it.
[The City Council has approved canceling other city funding to the MTA, and dedicating the city contribution to the LaGuardia link.]
Good for them!
I, too, will like to see something done in Queens in reference to mass transit expansion. Besides, Manhattan seems to already have it's fare share of rail transit.
N Bwy Lcl.
[I, too, will like to see something done in Queens in reference to mass transit expansion. Besides, Manhattan seems to already have it's fare share of rail transit.]
Not on a per capita basis--check out the commuter density maps in the RPA's proposals for a real eye opener.
In general, the heavily used lines in high traffic corridors make the money, while the outlying spurs in the boros (and upper Manhattan) are heavily subsidized loss leaders. Also, the lines in Manhattan typically serve everybody--a Second Avenue subway would, for example, serve Queens (commuters to downtown), Brooklyn (commuters to midtown), suburbanites (LIRR and Metro North commuters to downtown), people from the Bronx going anywhere, people from the Upper and Lower East Sides of Manhattan, and even people who take the ferry from Staten Island.
At $350 million/mile and $75 million/station for a 2 track line, it just doesn't make sense to build a subway anywhere surface roads can handle traffic unless there's a compelling reason such as an airport or overcrowding on existing lines that can't be fixed through other means such as updating the signal system.
(At $350 million a mile and $75 million a station).
You are describing what subways SHOULD cost in my view. The MTA thinks the subway will cost $1 billion per mile. At $350 million per mile we'd be extending lines all over the place.
I agree about the value of subways in Manhattan. After all, Manhattan is the place most of us are trying to get to by train. But something needs to be done for areas beyond the subway. More large Park-n-ride garages are a good possibility. We could pay for them if we tolled all the free bridges into Manhattan.
Seems to me that both the N and #7 options are wrong. Who wants to lug their bags onto a subway to get to the airport? When you've spent the money for a plane ticket, it makes little sense to skimp on the cost of a cab.
Really? Here in Chicago, a cab ride to O'Hare can easily run up to $30, not to mention the sheer joy of spending 90 minutes stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Kennedy Expressway. I doubt that a cab ride to any of New York's airports would be any easier or less expensive.
Not everybody can afford the extra $30+ for a cab ride, and even of those that can afford it, many often take the L just to save on the aggrivation with traffic.
(Me? I usually make a point to fly into LaGuardia during an off-peak period and take the M60 bus to Manhattan, but I'd much prefer a direct subway connection. Nothing like being stuck in traffic on the Triborough after spending 4 hours on a plane.)
Both the Blue Line to O'Hare and the Orange Line to Midway carry a great number of passengers to and from the airports, and most Chicagoans simply take it for granted that they can ride the L straight into the airport terminal. It baffles me that New York hasn't caught onto the idea yet.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[Really? Here in Chicago, a cab ride to O'Hare can easily run up to $30, not to mention the sheer joy of spending 90 minutes stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Kennedy Expressway. I doubt that a cab ride to any of New York's airports would be any easier or less expensive.
Not everybody can afford the extra $30+ for a cab ride, and even of those that can afford it, many often take the L just to save on the aggrivation with traffic.
(Me? I usually make a point to fly into LaGuardia during an off-peak period and take the M60 bus to Manhattan, but I'd much prefer a direct subway connection. Nothing like being stuck in traffic on the Triborough after spending 4 hours on a plane.)
Both the Blue Line to O'Hare and the Orange Line to Midway carry a great number of passengers to and from the airports, and most Chicagoans simply take it for granted that they can ride the L straight into the airport terminal. It baffles me that New York hasn't caught onto the idea yet.]
The cab trip to Laguardia is fast and cheap. Kennedy Airport is further away, but when the TA offered a time-saving "Train to the Plane" service to JFK with bus service around the terminal nobody took it--I mean *nobody*--the trains were virtually empty.
Most people who have spent several hundred dollars on a plane ticket just don't care about saving $10 on a cab--you have to offer something more.
Most people who have spent several hundred dollars on a plane ticket just don't care about saving $10 on a cab--you have to offer something more.
Most people buy their plane tickets several weeks in advance and may not have enough cash with them on the day of the actual flight. I should know... I've been in that position many times.
As shocking as this may be, not everybody can afford a $30 cab fare, even after buying plane tickets.
And even if I did have the extra cash, I can think of about a hundred things I'd rather spend it on than a cab ride to the airport when I can get there just as easily with a $1.50 ride on the L.
The cab trip to Laguardia is fast and cheap.
Define "fast and cheap." Paying $20-30 to crawl across the Triborough and down 125th Street isn't my idea of fun.
Kennedy Airport is further away, but when the TA offered a time-saving "Train to the Plane" service to JFK with bus service around the terminal nobody took it--I mean *nobody*--the trains were virtually empty.
Probably because this was an express train, meaning most people wouldn't be able to catch the train at a stop close to them. Also, it still involves a transfer to a bus. You're talking about at least a three-seat ride for most people... No wonder nobody took it.
The CTA Blue Line is a local train and terminates inside O'Hare itself. Get off the train, go up a short escalator, and boom, you're inside the terminal. And it works -- witness the crowds of people coming off each train that pulls into the station. New York could learn a lot from Chicago in this case.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[The CTA Blue Line is a local train and terminates inside O'Hare itself. Get off the train, go up a short escalator, and boom, you're inside the terminal. And it works -- witness the crowds of people coming off each train that pulls into the station. New York could learn a lot from Chicago in this case.]
I've never taken the airport train in Chicago, but I have in other cities, and each time they've been woefully underutilized.
Having more stops on the subway won't make any difference. Unless they happen to live or work along the BMT, most people will have to change trains to get to it in the first place, and in NYC that means lots of stairs and long passages. People who have no baggage won't have a problem with it; people who have bags will say forget it. And most people at an airport, even a short hop onee like LaGuardia, have bags.
As to the savings, I see people who are totally broke take a $20 cab ride rather than public transportation when they go to the airport. It's not that public transportation doesn't get you there just as fast--it does. That $1.50 ride may be good for you--but considering that you could offer a free cab fare for every one of the 66 million passengers who use LaGuardia over a three year period for the cost of building the subway link, it's a rather expensive subsidy.
Whiplash! If 1 1/2 mile subway extension would serve too few people to be cost effective, how do you justify an entire separate line?
The point is, the airport cannot justify a rail line by itself, but as the city's from door you want to offer an alternative to the BQE. Therefore, you need a service that will serve the aiport and other places too.
I have an opposite view about sending the N to the airport. First, what are Airport passengers going to do when they tried to board an overcrowded train? Wait???? They will find an alternative route (the next time they decide to travel) to the airport. It most likely will be cab or car service. As a result, the cost of building the extension will go to waste.
What can be done to eleviate this obsticle? One way will be to provide more service on this line and have a specially design train with lugguage racks. This will reduce the amount of space lugguages consume.
N trains must run at a two minute heyway at least doing rush hours if this is going to work.
N Broadway Local
[Whiplash! If 1 1/2 mile subway extension would serve too few people to be cost effective, how do you justify an entire separate line?
The point is, the airport cannot justify a rail line by itself, but as the city's from door you want to offer an alternative to the BQE. Therefore, you need a service that will serve the aiport and other places too.]
See my other post--the one with the figures.
The one thing I'd add is that airport access is listed by businesses as one of the main reasons they leave New York, and it seems to me that we should worry about keeping businesses here before just about anything else. The figures on the average income of air travellers at LGA are pretty stunning. Directly or indirectly, those people add a *lot* to the local economy.
Don't forget the workers. The city's largest employment centers are (in order)
Midtown
Dowtown
Midtown South/etc.
Downtown Brooklyn
JFK and vincinity -- 50,000 workers
LGA and vicinity -- 25,000 workers
They added rail service to Downtown Miami. Downtown Miami, including the nearby Brickell corridor, has about 40,000 employed.
12/08/99
The "Train to the Plane" should have been called the Train to the BUS to the Plane. That's why the lack of ridership. But was a puesdo commuter rail service for the Howard Beach and Rockaway people who wanted a faster service to Manhattan bypassing the Fulton St. line.
Bill Newkirk
"The "Train to the Plane" should have been called the Train to the BUS to the Plane. That's why the lack of ridership. But was a
puesdo commuter rail service for the Howard Beach and Rockaway people who wanted a faster service to Manhattan
bypassing the Fulton St. line."
Faster to Midtown Manhattan, not Lower Manhattan (Financial District).
N Bwy Lcl.
I was thinking of the same thing run a spur off the Amtrack, put back the 3rd rail or use Dot of T Conn Cars and run non stop from LGA to Penn or GCT. Maybe by 2099 they will do it
[I was thinking of the same thing run a spur off the Amtrack, put back the 3rd rail or use Dot of T Conn Cars and run non stop from LGA to Penn or GCT. Maybe by 2099 they will do it.]
LOL
Exactly. You could also run direct service to JFK via Jamaica.
I'd also run airport specials, with their windows opaqued singapore style, down the BMT, since there's no commuter connection yet to downtown--they'd go to a special airport only terminal in the basement of the spectacular and convenient Customs House, then via the Atlantic Avenue branch to the Rockaway ROW and Airtrain.
And while we're at it, bring nonstop service from Newark airport via the PRR tunnel and downtown PATH.
With checkin on the train, transportation to the airports would become a competitive asset rather than a liability. Three spectacular terminals--the new Penn Station, GCT, and the Customs House--located right in the major business districts, designed for easy access by cab or subway.
[Seems to me that both the N and #7 options are wrong. Who wants to lug their bags onto a subway to get to the airport? When you've spent the money for a plane ticket, it makes little sense to skimp on the cost of a cab.]
You're assuming the line would be for air travelers. I think it would be mostly for airport employees.
[You're assuming the line would be for air travelers. I think it would be mostly for airport employees.]
I agree, and I think that's the wrong priority right now, because it's a big chunk of change, and we could spend the same money in other underserved areas and benefit many more people. Or--we could spend the money to create a link that would be useful to *both* airport employees and travelers, and that's what I favor.
Jeff you did not read my earlier posting. Many people would use the connection train to plane. It has been used all over the world with great sucess. I doubt it will happen in NY but lots of cities are doing it.
Does Laguardia Community College even warrant a whole subway line to it?
I don't understand your question. I am talking about the airport,not the school. The Flushing line was built decades before LaGuardia Community College was built. Those buildings are old factory buildings from the White Motor company and Chickletts Factory, among others.
Down with Vallone!
Assuming it would be built (see other posts, logically it would have to depend on demand/usage. This past April I picked my son up at La Guardia. He came in on a jet from St. Louis at 12:45 AM. This was probably one of the last (if not the last) scheduled plane into LGA. There was hardly anyone in the terminal. All concession stands and most of the ticket counters were closed. It was spooky to hear your own footsteps on the floors. I don't think that there would be much of a demand for service until the AM shift workers have to arrive. I guess you could either elimate service or run a shuttle during certain hours.
Question: If they build it, will they come???? It might be used during the day but would this lead to a demand for more flights into the airport in the early morning hours ??? How would the surronding communities (NIMBY's) react?
[Assuming it would be built (see other posts, logically it would have to depend on demand/usage. This past April I picked my son up at La Guardia. He came in on a jet from St. Louis at 12:45 AM. This was probably one of the last (if not the last) scheduled plane into LGA. There was hardly anyone in the terminal. All concession stands and most of the ticket counters were closed. It was spooky to hear your own footsteps on the floors. I don't think that there would be much of a demand for service until the AM shift workers have to arrive. I guess you could either elimate service or run a shuttle during certain hours.
Question: If they build it, will they come????]
Nah. People have bags.
It seems to me that to make aiport trains competitive, they have to travel nonstop from a station you can get to by cab, with check in on the train. Make it more convenient, faster, and more economical than a cab, and people *will* come, in droves--and that in turn will justify the investment, whereas a subway extension that serves few will never pay for itself.
And automate it to allow frequent, 24 hour a day service.
You should ride the M60 some time. Lots of people with a bag or two want to save a few bucks.
(M60 -- people with bags)
We've been through this before, but the M60 and other bus to subway options stink. While a direct subway connecton would be better, there is nothing stopping the TA from running a shuttle bus direct from Ditmars, leaving with the arrival of each train and returning to catch a train out.
[We've been through this before, but the M60 and other bus to subway options stink. While a direct subway connecton would be better, there is nothing stopping the TA from running a shuttle bus direct from Ditmars, leaving with the arrival of each train and returning to catch a train out.]
I don't know why they don't do that. I guess the demand just isn't sufficient.
They (MTA) must improve service in everyway before building an extension to LaGuardia Airport. Otherwise, due to the current overcrowded situation on this line (N), they won't be enough room for airport passengers.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
[They (MTA) must improve service in everyway before building an extension to LaGuardia Airport. Otherwise, due to the current overcrowded situation on this line (N), they won't be enough room for airport passengers.]
Another reason it has to be a separate service, because you know they won't--and who's going to stand most of the way to LGA with their bags when they can take a cab or limo, or, if they're somehow able to afford a plane ticket but not a cab or group ride, the Carey bus?
Another way of looking at it--for the $645 million it would cost to extend the subway to LGA, you could provide something like 64 million free cab rides--that's a free ride for every single airport passenger for a period of three years.
There is plenty of room on the Astoria and Broadway express tracks for a separate train to LaGuardia. No need for the N train itself to be extended. Once the 63rd Street tunnel connection is open there will be more room in the 60th Street tunnel to accomodate the extra trains on the stretch from Queensboro Plaza to 57th Street.
I'd rather have a seperate airport line. The mere reputation of the NYC subway system will scare people away from using any extension of the N line. A branch off the Amtrak line east of Hell's gate would be ideal, then allowing train service to travel via the Amtrak ROW, into Penn Station or Grand Centrl once that connection is built.
[I'd rather have a seperate airport line. The mere reputation of the NYC subway system will scare people away from using any extension of the N line. A branch off the Amtrak line east of Hell's gate would be ideal, then allowing train service to travel via the Amtrak ROW, into Penn Station or Grand Centrl once that connection is built.]
My idea for taking the trains through the subway tunnel would be to obscure the windows with LCD's as they do in Singapore! The only reason I'd want anything to go via the BMT is that there's no other way to get downtown. It would have to go to a separate station, though.
[There is plenty of room on the Astoria and Broadway express tracks for a separate train to LaGuardia. No need for the N train itself to be extended. Once the 63rd Street tunnel connection is open there will be more room in the 60th Street tunnel to accomodate the extra trains on the stretch from Queensboro Plaza to 57th Street.]
As I think I said elsewhere, it seems to me that it would be a good idea to do just that, with a special station in lower Manhattan that could also serve JFK via a link at Atlantic Avenue. Ideally I think you'd have special service to Penn, GCT, and the downtown area, with the first two via the LIRR tracks (faster).
Sounds like the Metrolink plan??????
3TM
150St. Transfer to the Q15. The next station will be Crocheron Av. Transfer to the 7 line lower level. The Q28 on the street level. Stand Clear please.......
[Sounds like the Metrolink plan??????]
Similar on the Brooklyn end. As far as I know, the RPA recommended converting the Atlantic Avenue branch to subway operation, building a special fleet of subway/LIRR happy cars, and linking to JFK at Jamaica (whether via the Rockaway Line or the Van Wyck I don't know). They also want to build a tunnel from Atlantic Avenue to downtown, which would I think become the end of a real Second Avenue subway.
Metrolink is an excellent proposal, though I find some of their suggestions too conservative and others unnecessarily expensive (e.g., I don't think we need another subway tunnel as long as the Manhattan Bridge holds out--it would be cheaper to increase the capacity of the existing tunnels through better signals and automation). I'm just thinking of the cheapest, fastest way to get airport service--and I love the idea of using the Customs House, a spectacular building ideally located, as a downtown airport terminal.
"Once the 63rd Street tunnel connection is open there will be more room in the 60th Street tunnel to accomodate the extra trains on the stretch from Queensboro Plaza to 57th Street."
You mean, once the Manhattan Bridge work is completed for the N and Q lines they will be more compacity available in the 60th Street tunnel.
N Broadway Line
The Manhattan Bridge has nothing to do with how many trains can be physically stuffed down the 60th St. tube.
"The Manhattan Bridge has nothing to do with how many trains can be physically stuffed down the 60th St. tube."
In a way it does ChrisR. Using the Manhattan Bridge, it no longer have to share the montague tunnel with the M/R - increasing compacity at the 60th Street tunnel.
N Broadway Local
THEY SHOULD PUT ANOTHER LINE TO RUN ALONG THE N LINE TO ASTORIA AND LET THE LINE RUN OVER THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE AND EXPRESS IN BROOKLYN. ONCE IN QUEENS THEY COULD RUN A SKIP-STOP EXPRESS LIKE ON THA 1&9 OR J&Z
"THEY SHOULD PUT ANOTHER LINE TO RUN ALONG THE N LINE TO ASTORIA AND LET THE LINE RUN OVER THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE AND EXPRESS IN BROOKLYN. ONCE IN QUEENS THEY COULD RUN A SKIP-STOP EXPRESS LIKE ON THA 1&9 OR J&Z"
I disagree with this idea, 4th Avenue Express. At least have half of the N trains turn at 14th Street - reversing back to Astoria where they're needed.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
Unless the airport will be closed at night. I think the LaGuardia Station will be open all night. It'll just be like the Howard Beach Terminal Station on the A.
Yeah, but that station is nearly a mile from JFK and has a neighborhood around it to service. If this extension ever gets built, I would assume the terminal would actually be inside the airport. If that's true, then 24 hour/7 day service might not be warranted.
If they extend the N, and the airport is open 24 hours, then the train service will be open 24 hours because it will be used by employees and travelers. If they extend the #7 of the LIRR no one will use it, so they'll probably close it as much as possible
12/08/99
If a subway line is extended to LaGuardia Airport maybe that will increase air service to the airport. You know , if you build , they will come!
And as far as overburdening the (N) line to Astoria , there is an unused center track on the EL. Service to the airport wouldn't have rapid transit headways (like JFK Exp) and could utilize the center track. The line could leave the airport , follow the GCP and fly over the structure at Astoria Blvd. That's if the NIMBY's approve!
Bill Newkirk
"If a subway line is extended to LaGuardia Airport maybe that will increase air service to the airport. You know , if you build ,
they will come!
And as far as overburdening the (N) line to Astoria , there is an unused center track on the EL. Service to the airport wouldn't
have rapid transit headways (like JFK Exp) and could utilize the center track. The line could leave the airport , follow the GCP
and fly over the structure at Astoria Blvd. That's if the NIMBY's approve!
Bill Newkirk"
Improving N service will be enough. That way no additional fare is required if a special service ("AIRPORT EXPRESS) is instituted.
N Broadway Local
If it cheers you, Mr. N, my personal vision has you extended via the airport to Flushing, and following the Port Washington ROW to Bayside, with a lower level between Shea and La Guardia thrown in for LIRR trains from Grand Central.
[And as far as overburdening the (N) line to Astoria , there is an unused center track on the EL. Service to the airport wouldn't have rapid transit headways (like JFK Exp) and could utilize the center track. The line could leave the airport , follow the GCP and fly over the structure at Astoria Blvd. That's if the NIMBY's approve!]
I was thinking about that center track last night. Do you think you could get the headway low enough? How many minutes would it take for a train to go through that stretch?
Why wouldn't it? The rest of the system is open 24/7 except for the J, M, and Z south of Chambers on weekends and those stations have service a block away (4, 5). You have the N go to Astoria and have no alternate way of travel after a certain time, what happens then? Walk?
12.08/99
WMATAGMOH,
WALK?.....No , M-60 !
Bill Nekwirk
When I travel I use the M60 to/from LaGuardia Airport. Let me tell you, it is extremely crowded, very slow, and you have to wait a while for it. Even the N train isn't as bad.
N Broadway Local
The NYCRR Putnam Division from 1916 onwards extended north from a joint station with the IRT Ninth Avenue El at Sedgewick Avenue in The Bronx north through Westchester and Putnam Counties to Brewster NY where it joined the NYCRR Harlem Division. It ran through towns such as Dunwoodie,Elmsford,East View, Pocantico Hills,Briarcliff Manor, Yorktown Heights, Mahopac, and Carmel. The Putnam Line's juction with the Harlem Line was and still is at Putnam Junction a short distance NORTH of the Brewster Station. This meant that a northbound Putnam trains had to run south a short distance on the Harlem to reach Brewster Station. The last train from Sedgewick Avenue to Brewster ran on May 29,1958. However passenger service on the upper Put between Brewster and Lake Mahopac lasted until April 2,1959. This was an inter-divisional move that ran from Brewster over the Put to Mahopac and then over the now abandoned Lake Mahopac Branch to the Harlem Line at Goldens Bridge.
The Put continued to be used for a time for heavy frieght traffic but was downgraded first to sub-division status then branchline status of the Hudson Division starting in the late 1950's. In 1962 23 miles of the Put were abandoned between Eastview and Lake Mahopac. In 1969 the Putnam Branch North was further cut back to Carmel. The last freight train ran here on March 14,1970 although there was an unauthorized last run on September 1,1972. Service on the Putnam Branch South was gradually cut back to below Van Cortlandt Park. Some tracks remain just north of the junction with the Hudson Line at BN which is a little above University Heights Station. A very short section remains as part of the wye at Put Junction Yard on the Harlem Line and is used to turn trains when necessary. Because of this the occasional Genesis Locomotives get a chance to run on the Put for a short distance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The last freight train ran here on March 14,1970 although there was an unauthorized last run on September 1,1972. Service on the Putnam Branch South was gradually cut back to below Van Cortlandt Park.]
I recall seeing a couple of freight cars at the Stella D'Oro plant a short distance north of the Hudson Line junction while returning from a Yankees game. Freight service on this lower portion of the Put therefore must have continued at least as late as 1981-82, as that's when I saw a couple of Yankees games, the only times I've been to the stadium.
Stella D'Oro was indeed the last customer to use what was left of the Putnam line. I'm not sure of the exact date, but it might have been as late as 1981 or '82.
Larry...What was the occasion for the Sept. 1, 1972 run on the Put?
Carl M.
Carl: It makes for a good story. A local teenager managed to get on board a diesel switcher in the Put Yard and was able to get it moving. The engine rumbled down the Put forcing fishermen on the bridge to dive into the water to avoid the runaway. How long the teenager remained on board I don't know but the train finally came to a halt when it ran into some dead trees.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is it true that the Put was a single-track line for most of its length? That would certainly limit the usefulness of any attempt to revive it.
Although the Put was mostly single-tracked there were many sections of double tracks and passing sidings especially at stations. I think the biggest obstacle to restoration would be the elimination of the grade crossings.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why woulr they restore it, most people who use Metro North take their cars or are dropped off by family members. The Hudson and Harlem Divisions are no more then a 10 minute car ride in either direction. Plus there are expensive homes now built on the ROW, and these NIMBYS HAVE THE BIG BUCKS.
I go to the Beacon High school in Manhattan on 61 and Amsterdam and every day at around 3ish i hear and train wistle that sounds like it belongs to a frate train. I don't remember (or see out the wndow) any depot being around the area. If any of you can shead any light on the situation please tell me.
I'm just guessing. Doesn't Amtrak run some passenger trains up the west side? If you're hearing a whistle, I'd be surprised if either freight or passenger trains still use whistles. I would almost suggest you go into the main office at school and ask the secretary if she knows what the whistle is? Before you do that, make sure that you are not the only one hearing it, otherwise there's no telling what the school system might do to a student hearing whistles. In case nobody here knows, and you do find out, let us know here. You hear it everyday around 3 ?? And it's a whistle and not a horn? Does it blow once, long or short, is it the same everyday?
Sorry, it a horn and it blows twice for a second and then stops
As for the school system I'm sure that there don't mind a student hearing horns in his head. That miner compaired to the other kids
Okay. Two blasts of the horn. Do you have a
street map of Manhattan? I'm looking at a map from
the 1980's, but it shows railroad track running
uptown from the W.40's between 10th and 11th Avenue.
Around 54th St., it begins to move over toward 11th
Ave which turns into West End Ave at 59th St. At 61
St. the tracks are right about West End Ave, about a
block from your school. I wonder if the train is
entering a tunnel around this spot and the engineer
is blowing his horn as a warning? Again, this is
all off the top of my head. If you want to do some
detective work, see if you can get to Amtrak's
website, and see if they have a passenger train
going to Montreal around the time you're hearing the
horn. The fact that you hear it only around 3 PM
makes me think it's more Amtrak, rather than the
subway, which you would probably hear a lot more
often.
I liked what you said about a kid hearing horns in
his head, would be no big problem compared to what's
going on in a lot of student's and plenty of
teacher's heads. That was funny, and unfortunately
true......
Let us know what you find out. Maybe there is hope for me. I've been hearing fog horns in my head for the last 20 years, and I thought I was nuts. ( Just kidding ) ( Besides, most people here know that I am nuts ) paul
I just reread your original question. You said that you couldn't see any railyards around the area. These tracks are below the street level. There use to be a freight yard---which on my map has the name Sixtieth Street Terminal that stretched from 60th to 72nd St. between West End Ave and the West Side Highway. I use to look down on it from W.72nd St near Riverside Drive. I don't know if they still handle freight there, but a couple of years ago Amtrak starting running some of their Northbound routes up along these tracks.
Are you interested in trains or buses or transportation? If you're are, that's okay. But if you're not, and you were just wondering about the horn you hear,let me warn you that getting interested in trains and stuff could really be something that will worry people. Telling people that you're going to spend the whole day riding subway trains or buses will make them wonder. Just thought I warn you. I'm just kidding around, at least a little bit.....
Isn't that yard gone? I thought that was where Trump is building a housing complex.
On a different subject, I love this kids spelling. Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this site.
As far as the freight yard goes, I haven't looked at
that place in a long time. In fact, if I get a
chance tomorrow, I may pedal over there and test my
theory of an Amtrak train being the cause of the whistle that was heard.
kma--- You said you loved the kids spelling. but
Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this
site. The second sentence gives me the feeling
that you are being critical of the young person's
spelling. There were a lot of spelling errors, but
this seemed like someone new posting here about
something that he was curious about. I was able to
understand what he meant. Pointing out spelling
errors can make someone not feel welcome.
Speaking of which, you made two and possibly three
spelling and grammatical errors of your own.
kids spelling should be kid's spelling
Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this
site should have a question mark at the end.
I thought that was where Trump is building a housing
complex. This one I am not entirely sure about,
but something doesn't sound right about "that was
where Trump is building"------ the tenses may be off.
Spelling is like the clothes a person wears. We
must go beyond appearances. Now most people on this
site value my modesty and humor. Think
of what they would be missing if they judged me just
by the fact that I rarely bathe, and wear the same
clothes for weeks.
Thanks for pointing that out, I have a lot of spelling errors because i have to type fast, so i could get to class on time. I'm sorry for any misspelling or grammer that i cause
Remember yesterday, I said don't tell anyone at school that you're hearing train whistles. Be sure you don't tell anyone you've been a train buff since you were 4. They'll be very worried.
All joking aside, did you hear the horn this afternoon? We have to get to the bottom of this mystery, and once we solve it, I'm going to find the key to the food locker even if I have to turn this whole city upside down. ( That's just an inside joke for people who have seen the Caine Mutiny )
Yes I did hear it today, at 3:16
I have some Amtrack maps that are pushed somewhere in the back of my closet. I'm going to check them and see if i can anything
Me and PGitty ( aka JPaulGetty) are trying to figure
out what's making the train horn that he hears
around 3PM in the vicinity of 61st and Amsterdam. I
just reposted the subject, because I know that
there are at least 3 or 4 people out here who can
rattle off the Amtrak movements on the West Side.
Or perhaps suggest some other cause for hearing
those sounds.
I don't rattle, but I did check Amtrak's website. There is a 2:50 out of Pennsylvania Station bound for Albany.
Hey Gary, thanks. That must be what PG is hearing.
Do you know whether there is a portal somewhere in the area of 61st St where the engineer might be blasting his horn? Now why doesn't PG hear it other times of the day?
That I can't answer since there are several other departures and arrivals during the day. Maybe it has something to do with his location in the school at that time.
That could be it. The class where you could hear the horn is the only class I have on 61st side of my school (on the 3rd floor).
Now I am pretty certan that it's an Amtrack train and not anything else. I'm off of school soon so if i haven't found an answer yet, I'm going to go and try to find were the horn comes from
(P.S. I don'y know if you read in the papers latey but my school is fighing Rudy Crue for the right not to take the reagents. Here is a link to m school The Beacon School
and PGitty is short for Pat Gerity my name
Hey Pat. I was down by your school today doing some recon of the area. If you go over to 60th & West End, a little before the entrance to the parking lot on the west side of the street, you can look down and see the 2 tracks. Gary is right, there is a Albany train leaving Penn Station before 3PM, but I picked up a North East Time Table over at Penn Station this morning, and Train # 48 the Lake Shore Limited comes is due in at Penn Station at 3PM. I tried asking two guys who were directing cars into the parking lot whether they ever hear train horns, but they didn't speak English well. There is another spot on 58th a little off 11th where you can see the tracks. Your school is in a neat area. You are right by the original power house of the Interborough Rapid Transit. And there was a Municipal Bath House going back to the good old days also right off 11th on of the streets. I followed the line up to 72nd Street, where he disappears underneath Riverside Park. kma was right yesterday when he said that the railyards are long gone.
This was fun. I like your explanation that this is the only time you are on the 61st Side of the bldg.
I have got to run and go tutor somebody. paul
Thanl you very much for sloving that for me. I know about the power plant, I see that huge smoke stack everyday and on the said of the building, in faded letters it says "Interboro Rapit Tranist Company" And the bath house is used today as the 59th Street Recreation Center. Once again thanks
"P.S. I don'y know if you read in the papers latey but my school is fighing Rudy Crue for the right not to take the reagents"
Neither private schools nor any REGENTS are under the jurisdiction of the City Board of Ed or Rudy CREW.
I wonder if there's a spelling section on the new six hour English Regents that your school wants to avoid.
Eugenius--- The Beacon School is one of the Alternative High School within the Board of Education. Although,I didn't see anything on their website about the fight with the Chancellor about Regents exams--- there are many alternative high schools that would like to free to build their own curriculum and not have to be caught up with the uniform Regents Exams. There is much to be said on both sides of this issue.
As far as the spelling errors go--- Check your own use of neither and nor ---- I don't think two negatives should be in one sentence. Your last sentence was a question--- you left out a question mark. I actually may be wrong on the neither nor, but I just needed to lob a couple of shots back at you.
No, I made no grammatical errors.
Neither...nor is a team, and is considered one negative. Notice my use of IS to describe the team.
My final sentence is declarative.
Now as for the other thing, I was mistaken about the Public/Private status of the school, however exclusion from the Regents would still be a matter dealt with by the State Education Department.
As far as the spelling errors go--- Check your own use of neither and nor ---- I don't think two negatives should be in one sentence. Your last sentence was a question--- you left out a question mark. I actually may be wrong on the neither nor, but I just needed to lob a couple of shots back at you.
Touche!
Paul, I thought the mess hands ate the strawberries.
Sarge--- You keep believing those disloyal officers. They fought me at every turn. Take the tow chain fiasco--- defective equipment that's all. But they started rumors and called me Old Yellow Stain. But I had them with the key to the food lockers. I proved with geometric logic that there was a key..... Uh... I'll be happy to answer one question at a time....... I really liked Queeg.
Hey Paul, its been a while since I saw it, but after you quoting some of the lines I'm going to have to get the video out and watch it tonight. And believe it or not, I forgot to watch Tora, Tora, Tora yesterday, Dec 7.
> Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this site?
Sure. You use an app that has a spell checker to compose your text, then cut and paste.
-Dave
> Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this site?
Sure. You use an app that has a spell checker to compose your text, then cut and paste.
-Dave
Whatever you do, don't use Microsoft Word. You will wind up with a lot worse than you started with, if you let Word change everything. You have to be discerning with Word. If I question how something is spelled, I usually just plug it into my Random House Webster Dictionary software, which I usually keep open while I'm on SubTalk. If I misspelled a word, it will give me the correct spelling.
kma--- You said you loved the kids spelling. but
Is it possible to use a spell checker while on this
site. The second sentence gives me the feeling
that you are being critical of the young person's
spelling. There were a lot of spelling errors, but
this seemed like someone new posting here about
something that he was curious about. I was able to
understand what he meant. Pointing out spelling
errors can make someone not feel welcome.
I totally agree. What is important is a person's input, not spelling, crossing t's and dotting i's. I've seen some pretty horrendous spelling and grammar on this BB, but I'm not an English teacher giving out grades. I'm just interested in reading what people have to say about things regarding transit. After all, isn't that what SubTalk is all about? I can speak for everybody on SubTalk, when I say that we all learn something by spending our time here. So, enough of the cheap shots, guys! Lets all make SubTalk a positive experience for everybody.
Actually, I been a subway buff since I was 4. I always studied the subway and know a lot on the subject. And I been posting on this bord for the past year. And I am in the prosses of Running the entire subway system (inculing Statin Island) by this summer. And filming it.
I have to get back to class now
I'm planning to take off this Thursday, and was hoping to get a double decker on the Oyster Bay branch. Does the LIRR have a definitive schedule of what equipment they run on what trains, or is it at random, as with subway lines carrying more than one model of rolling stock?
I figured on leaving Oyster Bay in the morning after the peak hours and returning from Jamaica on the next available train. According to the schedule, the shuttles from Mineola don't start till afternoon.
I still see the original diesel equipment on the Oyster Bay every time I try to get a double decker. So much for the rumor that all LIRR diesel runs are double deckers! A few Sundays ago the long haul 12:20 (?) Jamaica-to-Montauk-first-stop-Patchogue was the old diesel!
You'd think such a long run would get better equipment.
Just thought someone here would know.
A couple of months ago I took my family to the Oyster Festival in O.B. by train from Mineola on both weekend days. Going home we took the same train, the 5:59. On Saturday it was a bi-level (or tri-level if you count the door entry level!!!!) and on Sunday it was the good 'ol 1955 cars. So I don't think any particular train is always one or the other.
And you thought our life/job was easy..
Sunday Night/Monday Morning (Overnight) I worked at 79 on the 1 line. A wash team was there and unknown to them, the drains clogged and a blob of soap started growing otuaside the booth and spreading to the platform on the downtown side. I was on the phone with the Station Supervisor, on the booth mike with the wash supervisor, and on the phone to the wash team's supervisor (at the wash supervisor's call!) and then to vehicle maintenance( When the wash supervisor's truck would not start). Oh yes- Vent and Drain was also contacted and they were called. SO.. I dealt with five supervisors (Vent and drain, wash team,station supervisor (Level II) wash Team supervisor's superior and vehicle maintenance. I also used my booth mike (PA out of order!) to inform deboarding customers to watch their step and had conductors point to the growing soap blob!(oh yes- and the S/A fromt he other side who called me about the blob!). Oh yes- I wanted to hit ther alarm but was forbidden to do so by the wash supervisor(They are also Station Supervisors!-level I, but supervisors)
Last night (Monday Night I was to work at Penn IRT but got bumped and assigned to First Ave on the L. At 14th Street I headed downt the corridor to the L when I saw a confused customer. I offered assistance and was told he was OK. A second individual told me that a young boy was running back and forth in the passageway. I dashed off after the kid and almost had him when he ran away. I asked for assistance and a customer finally cornered the lost boy. I took the boy to the nearest booth (along with the customer who helped me catch the boy) and contacted police-The boy was not very fluent in English and did not know his parents names and did not know his address. I held on to the boy until the police came. The customer stayed and helped- once the boy did try to get away and the customer stopped the boy. Thankfully the booth did call the police who did respond promptly. I do not know the final outcome- I left once I was satisfied that the polcie were dealing with boy and I was no longer needed. I told the Station Agent (S/A) in the booth where I was going and my pass number.
You may have some who do not care, but I care about what happens when I am in the system
I got to 1st ave 20 minutes late-0 fortunately Stations did not gripe about my being late.
"Vent and Drain?" Considering the condition of floor drain all over the system, I had assumed that no one was responsible for maintaining them.
How many people work for this unit? What is the average time between drain stoppage and response? Why can't they clear the drain at the foot of the stairs to the exit at the Northeast corner of 42nd St. and 7th Ave.?
Why are half the drains elevated above the surrounding floor?
Judging from their performance, they must spend their days sleeping or drinking coffee.
Sunday Night/Monday Morning (Overnight) I worked at 79 on the 1 line. A wash team was there and unknown to them, the drains clogged and a blob of soap started growing otuaside the booth and spreading to the platform on the downtown side. I was on the phone with the Station
Supervisor, on the booth mike with the wash supervisor, and on the phone to the wash team's supervisor (at the wash supervisor's call!) and then to vehicle maintenance( When the wash supervisor's truck would not start). Oh yes- Vent and Drain was also contacted and they were called. SO.. I dealt with five supervisors (Vent and drain, wash team,station supervisor (Level II) wash Team supervisor's superior and vehicle maintenance. I also used my booth mike (PA out of order!) to inform deboarding customers to watch their step and had conductors point to the growing soap blob!(oh yes- and the S/A fromt he other side who called me about the blob!). Oh yes- I wanted to hit ther alarm but was forbidden to do so by the wash supervisor(They are also
Station Supervisors!-level I, but supervisors)
I'm so confused !!! :)
I thought this was a sequel "Return of the Blob" movie .....
--Mark
Calling all Metro Atlanta Sub Talkers:
Assistance is needed for the MARTA Station-by-station. See your name in lights!!
For guidance, see the line-by-line section. Of course: You'll have to include those long escalators at Peachtree center Station (that actually have a sign advising claustrophobiacs to use the elevator) and the huge Five Point , the Ashby Street station-also two levels, Airport, etc.
IM SORRY i used to live there and really hated the marta system
poor service too long waits paper transcards even on buses etc.
long waits only two car trains on weekends with huge crowds
glad i dont live there any more not that los angeles has any
system either in the automobile capital of the west!!
maybe i can help you with the los angeles rail system however..
I checked with Peggy-- L A is yours!
LET ME COUNT THE WAYS I HATED IT !! yes i used to live there in the
1980s and have revisited the MARTA RAIL AND BUS SYSTEM IN THE ATLANTA
METROPOLITAN AREA MANY TIMES IN THE 1990S so i know!!
livend in college park east point midtown little five points etc!!!!
SO I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT FOLKS!!
CHIEP TOILET PAPER TRANSIT CARD and have the nerve to have a small
magenetic strip on the back of it!!
in new york city the transit are made fom strong PLASTIC NOT PAPER!!
then you have to hold this paper card and swipe it backwards and
wait for the bus on board computer to reject it and then you do this over and over again even if it is pouring down rain GEORGIA RAIN!!
and then may of the rude drivers accuse you of a fraud counterfit
ring of making paper transitcards INSANE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG waits for mart subway cars to arrive at
any station and one hour waits on weekends with ONLY TWO CAR SETS!!!
( even with standing room only at the stations )
9 to 5 service cant get a train or a bus after 11pm anywhere or a bus or train befor 6 am!!!! THE BIGOTS ABOVE THE GEORGIA 400 who will not
allow a station especially in gwinnett county abd cobb county!!!!
no co-ordination between buses and trains at all
computer controls push button that throw you back and fourth like a yo yo especially from the civic center station to the peachtree station !! NO RAIL FAN WINDOWS AT ALL & finally i used to live there this is experence talking to you not one visit!!!
YANKEE THIS AND THAT GOOD RIDDANCE I DONT LIVE THERE ANY MORE !!
how about those TOILET PAPER MARTA TRANSCARDS? arent they a riot??
I imagine the Atlanta tourism market has collapsed. Does anyone miss hearing from the person who referred to him/herself always in the third person?
whats there to see down there GEORGIA PINE TREES AND ANGRY ATLANTA
BRAVES FANS ANT THOSE """""YANKEES UP NORTH"""" ha ha ha ha!!!!!
Have you considered switching to decaf coffee?
I have a monthly MARTA Transcard and it's made of plastic, like New York's. The only thing I hate about the Transcard is that half of the turnstiles won't read them (they can, they just won't) and I wind up having to buy a token. Two car trains? The least number of cars I've ever seen was four. Two car trains are only on the Bankhead line. I must agree with you about Cobb and Gwinnett counties being bigots. They voted not to have MARTA, but the stations closest to Gwinnett (Doraville, Chamblee) are always packed with riders from Gwinnett. You're exaggerating about the wait, however. The most I have ever waited was twenty minutes- on a Sunday night. MARTA's service hours are from 5am-1am, not 9-5. There's a difference between exaggerating and being totally wrong. I like MARTA, i just wish it had more lines that go everywhere, so I wouldn't need a car. They say that this would happen by 2015. Well, I'm waiting.
Alright, lets clear up these misconceptions about MARTA's system. First and foremost, all transit agencies experience growing pains. With Atlanta's ever-increasing sprawl, it is nearly impossible to grow as quickly as the population. The longest i've ever waited for a train was about 15 minutes and again; that was on the weekend. Presently, MARTA has an order for about 100 new cars and should be receiving them by early 2000. This should also decrease headways for the system. MARTA is also building a new train yard on it's north line. Presently, to add trains to the north line on rush hour (where they are usually needed), they must travel from the southernmost point on the south line. The new yard will alleviate uneccessary wear on the trains and also allow for quicker rush-hour response. Finally, MARTA is limited to the counties that want it and unfortunately, Georgia suburbs scream the dreaded "not in my backyard" spill. They acknwoledge the need but "need" it somewhere else. Several of MARTA's proposed expansion routes (such as light rail and cobb/gwinnett extensions) would greatly turn metro Atlanta into an transit-buff's dream. The people of Georgia just need to wake up and realize that we need mass transit more than ever.
Thanks for reminding me about the 100 car order MARTA has. I believe the reason for the four car trains during rush hour is because they have a car shortage. They would rather have a short train than a long headway. I read in the Atlanta Constitution that the new rail yard will start construction by June, it was suppposed to have been completed in January. They are having a difficult time buying out the property needed and moving businesses. I also read that the existing rail yards can only handle about 20 more cars. However, since Breda is building the cars, the cars will probably have quality problems, like Boston has now. So, it might be a while before all 100 new cars will be on the system.
i saw the EAST WEST STORAGE YARD AT AVONDALE YARDS FULL OF SUBWAY
WORKING CARS while this cheap good for nothing marta system
refused to put them in service why???
i mean on weekends i saw the whole yard full of the french made
marta cars OPERATIONAL AND SAFE GATHERING DUST!!!
while we srruggled jam packed into two or three car sets of trains that only ran ONCE EVERY HOUR AND EVERY OTHER HOUR !!!!!!!
bad memories i had in ATLANTA GEORGIA GLAD I DONT LIVE THERE
anymore!! AT ALL DONT MISS IT !!! thank you for your response!!
Salaam, your name means "peace" in Arabic but you don't seem to be very much at peace with yourself or some of the subway systems. No one here will fault you for saying you don't like something, or that you do like something, but on behalf of a lot of folks I'd like to suggest that you say things once and not 100 times. After a while you sound like a broken record and people stop paying attention (or worse yet, start getting annoyed).
Shalom...
Anon_e_mouse
Brother, what MARTA are you riding. Because it certainly is not the one I've been riding for 10 years (on and off).
Maybe you need a lifetime dose of NYC Transit. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the NY subways, and will always have a first love passion for them.
But I'm not blind. I find that MARTA is a lot more comfortable system than the MTA.
For one example, remember the hot summer we just experienced. Well do me a favor. Name one subway station in the MARTA system that became as hot as Grand Central Station on the Lexington Ave line.
Enough said.
try waiting for an east west line train at night on the weekends
ABOUT ONE HOUR WAIT ESPECIALLY ON SUNDAY!!! maybe the late 1990s
are better i hope for the poor hard working people !!
I like MARTA, i just wish it had more lines that go everywhere, so I wouldn't need a car. They say that this would happen by 2015. Well, I'm waiting.
Don't hold your breath. I'd suggest moving to New York, Boston or Chicago if you want to be able to get around without a car.
As much as Sun Belt cities such as Atlanta and Phoenix like to self-righteously gloat about being the cities of the future, it is only a matter of time before they are choked to death by their own short-sighted urban planning policies.
Suburban sprawl is no different than any other cancer found in nature: a rapidly-growing malignancy of mutant cells that eventually destroys whatever organism it has infested. Older transit-oriented cities have already suffered much damage but most are still salvagable. Newer automobile-oriented cities and suburbs don't stand a chance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
dear david i used to live in atlanta college park east point midtown
and little five points !!!
the TOILET PAPER TRANSIT SO CALLED CARDS MADE ME SICK !!
having to SWIPE THE TRANSIT CARD TOWARD YOU ON THE 27 BUS
people standing in pouring down GEORGIA DOWNPOUR RAIN!!!
and having to wait one passenger at a time fighting the swipers trying to get them to """BEEP"" so that the MARTA BUS DRIVER would not
accuse the bus riders of MAKING COUNTERFIT MARTA CARDS which was 100%
false !!!!
i used to ride the CLEVELAND AVENUE auto row bus from the WEST END
fortunately there was a FREE TRANSFER i drove a schooll buis for atlanta schools my next complaint comes at only TWO CAR TRAINS
not restricted to the EAST WEST LINE ONLY!! on weekends even with
large crowds all the way from the hightower station to avondale !!!
TOTALLY INSANE LIKE THE GREEN LINE HERE IN LOS ANGELES RUSH HOUR!!
the lack of service in atlant even caused me to loose employment
etc.... a 6 am to 10 pm SERVICE what ????
you know I HATE DRIVING AND MISS THE RAIL SERVICE WE ONCE HAD HERE
in good old los angeles so i agree with you 100 % !!!!!!!!!!!
Re-post your message after you learn how to compose a coherent sentence, and then maybe I'll go back and actually read it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
You see, I can't just move to another city. I'm a college student down here, and I won't be graduating for a while. So have to live with all this sprawl.
well!!! they used to make them MARTA TRANSITCARDS OUT OF CHEAP TOILET
PAPER !!! and then require you to wipe the card toward you when you
board the bus EVEN IN POURING DOWN GEORGIA RAIN !!!
its about time the sunday rail service is a littel bit better and FINALLY A PLASTIC TRANSIT CARD !!! WHEW !!!!!!
Whats wrong with Georgia. They did a Tomohawk Chop and made the railfan windows disappear. Can't be that bad.
THE YANKEES CHOPPED OFF THE TOMOHAWK CHOP railfan - windowed
atlanta 4 games a sweep !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know MARTA from the inside. Address your questions to me. The side signs often don't work and yesterday car 319 had the best sign of all. It had about a dozen question marks displayed. You must never rely on the side signs even on the NOELL rebuilt cars.
Four car trains are the rule these days. If a car availablility problem.
The most asked question on MARTA, is this train going to Dunwoody or Doraville?
From an economic standpoint, its amazing how unsuccessful MARTA has been. They built a subway, the whole country paid for it, and people didn't come. You still have a pitifully small downtown, with almost all its workers arriving by car.
It seems as if that might change, however, with Atlanta now a poster child for suburban sprawl. I hear a couple of big employers chose to move downtown rather than suburban office parts. Perhaps MARTA and Downtown Atlanta will reach their potential in the next decade.
I read in the NY Times about the federal government forcing more subway construction in Atlanta against the people's wills to relieve smog levels.
why for example do you have cheap toilet paper transcards??
why even in the pouring down GEORGIA RAIN do you force all of your
bus riders TO SWIPE THESE TISSUE PAPER TRANSCARDS BACKWARDS!!???
why dont you give reciepts to those of us who park pay and ride and
then get our cars DENVER BOOTED EVEN AFETR WE PAY FOR PARKING!!
you have no system of proff or reciepts ant PAY PARKING LOTS !!!
why do you only use two to four car trains on the weekends even with standing room only?? and when your toilet tissue paper transcard wears out on the BACKWARD SWIPING FORCED METHODS why do your dirivers
falsely accuse riders of counterfit cards when they are DEFFECTIVE??
why do the trains and buses run too late in the morning and too early to quit in the evening??? THE TRANSCARD SWIPE BACKWARDS MACHINE
THAT YOU HAVE TO OPERATE ESPECIALLY THOSE WITH DISABILITIES REALLY
SENDS ME FOR A LOOP!!!! WOWEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SICK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, that is the most asked question. Even after the TO annouces it about five dozen times before arriving at the Lindbergh Station.
12/08/99
I don't know much about MARTA but Atlanta can't be all that bad. It's the home of COCA-COLA !!
Bill Newkirk
dont get me wrong some of the people in agusta and athens and other
parts of rual georgia nice folks sone are ok in atlanta too!!
and i used to drive for the atlanta schools route 171 on stewart ave
transfer to a bus at the WEST END STATION.......
except for the boring georgia pine trees no mountains no beaches
like here in southern california... still even with tyhe 9 to 5
transit system still im not putting the average folks down....
JUST CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE MARTA TRAMSIT SYSTEM !!!!
except for the boring georgia pine trees no mountains no beaches
like here in southern california...
The appalachian Chain starts in NW Georgia and goes into Tennessee.
"The appalachian Chain starts in NW Georgia and goes into Tennessee."
The Appalachians continue up the coast to Maine. The trail follows them.
The Appalachians continue up the coast to Maine. The trail follows them.
They start in Georgia, then go through Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Maine. If I'm not mistaken, I think they even go into Canada.
Correct... And one could even make an argument that they continue into the United Kingdom, or at least they used to.
How, you ask?
This dates back millions of years to when the North American and European continents were parts of a much larger super-continent. The Appalachians and the mountains of Scotland were actually part of the same chain until the continents broke apart.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Did you know that the JFK Airport Line will be done by Bombardier? Adtranz will do the signaling with the wiggling wire technique and the switches, signals and other devices will be provided by Union Switch and Signal.
The Van Wyck Expressway will be used as ROW to Jamaica Station.
Pardon my ignorance, but is "wiggling wire" an actual signaling technique?
Has any construction started on the Van Wyck,,,I noticed widening of both side roadways
This is just a guess on my part. They are widening the highway to put a fourth lane in because once they start construstion of the el, the center lane in each direction will be taken out of service.
The news reports last weekend say that they are widening it because they want more capacity South of the junction with the Grand Central Parkway. No mention of taking away a lane in the future.
Besides, the whole idea of elevating the line is to avoid losing lanes.
Anyway, I believe the whole line is tied up in a lawsuit by NIMBYs claiming that the choice of ROW is racially motivated.
Who would want to go to Jamaica from JFK? There's nothing there but a railroad station.
When I read the initial reports about the project, they said that during construction, the center lanes will be out of service. I am hoping, but not confident that they have figured out a way to build this thing with support down the center divider and the lane will be resored to service after completion.
When you consider that the el will be over 40 feet high (it has to go over the overpasses) and the center divider is very narrow, I have my doubts. Just becuase the news reports didn't say anything dosen't mean it aint so.
I have felt from the beginning that this project is a disgrace. If they want to build it, then put it under the Van Wyke in a tunnel/subway. Also, make it compitable with the subway and LIRR so it can hook up with those lines in Jamaica and be a real 1 seat ride.
My prediction is that within 20 years after the Van Wyke portion opens up, they will tear it down from lack of ridership. as of now, the only ones who will be able to ride it are airline ticket holders and airport employees.
As I think we discussed a few months ago, under Federal regulations, a condition of the funding of "Airtrain" with airport revenue is that it *not* be integrated into existing mass transit facilities (i.e., subway or LIRR). That's why the version of the proposal that extended to Manhattan had the line in a separate ROW, with its own river tunnels and its own terminal at 59th & 3rd.
If it were to be so integrated in the future, MTA would have to buy it from the PA, and (I imagine) the price would have to correspond to the sum of the original airport tax. Thanks to a surprising bit of foresighted arm-twisting, Giuliani forced PA to build the elevated strong enough to support heavy rail, looking forward to such a buyout in the future; but the curves in the airport loop would be too sharp for current subway and LIRR cars, so a special fleet would have to be designed for it.
You're right that the Van Wyck segment to Jamaica is going to be inconvenient and underused, but I'm willing to accept that, for the moment, it's the best that they can do. (I'm just excited to have something better to take me from Howard Beach to my terminal than that darn bus.)
I don't have a problem with the Howard Beach segment. I just feel that the Van Wyke portion is a prescription for disaster.
>> I don't have a problem with the Howard Beach segment. I just feel that the Van Wyke portion is a prescription for disaster.
I do agree with you--I was just trying to explain why we were stuck with this plan rather than a better one. The Van Wyck construction is going to inconvenience many more people than will ever use the finished line, is my guess.
On the bright side, it looks like they're making good progress on the Howard Beach and airport segments, from what I could see out there last week.
"On the bright side, it looks like they're making good progress on the Howard Beach and airport segments, from what I could
see out there last week."
Will this new route be a spur off the A rockaway line, or for the new airtrain?
Broadway Line
It's just to get folks to the long term parking lot, but will extend far enough so you can catch the A.
Mr t__:^)
I was wondering what that structure was yesterday while leaving the Big A parking lot. Thanks!!!
[As I think we discussed a few months ago, under Federal regulations, a condition of the funding of "Airtrain" with airport revenue is that it *not* be integrated into existing mass transit facilities (i.e., subway or LIRR). That's why the version of the proposal that extended to Manhattan had the line in a separate ROW, with its own river tunnels and its own terminal at 59th & 3rd.
If it were to be so integrated in the future, MTA would have to buy it from the PA, and (I imagine) the price would have to correspond to the sum of the original airport tax. Thanks to a surprising bit of foresighted arm-twisting, Giuliani forced PA to build the elevated strong enough to support heavy rail, looking forward to such a buyout in the future; but the curves in the airport loop would be too sharp for current subway and LIRR cars, so a special fleet would have to be designed for it.]
And what are our representatives doing? This is costing billions. Why can't they amend the law to apportion costs depending on service offered? The cost of an airport only ROW into Manhattan would be insane.
[I have felt from the beginning that this project is a disgrace. If they want to build it, then put it under the Van Wyke in a tunnel/subway. Also, make it compitable with the subway and LIRR so it can hook up with those lines in Jamaica and be a real 1 seat ride.
My prediction is that within 20 years after the Van Wyke portion opens up, they will tear it down from lack of ridership. as of now, the only ones who will be able to ride it are airline ticket holders and airport employees.]
Hear, hear! $1.5 billion for a Train to Nowhere, when for a few hundred million more it could offer nonstop service to the business districts.
As far as I know, the best place to run it is along the old ROW of the old Rockaway Branch, which leads right from the airport to the main line to Midtown and the Atlantic Avenue branch, whence it could run via subway tracks to a downtown terminal.
Of course that's the best palce to run it, but the NIMBY's have already spoken out against that one. The people who live along that abanded spur in Rego Park and Forest Hills have more money, therefore more political clout and stopped that idea dead in its tracks, (pun intended). The people who live near the Van Wyke have much less money and didn't have the power to stop it.
That is why all of Robert Moses' highways have so many turns. Those who had big bucks could keep him off their property, those who didn't had to move.
[Of course that's the best palce to run it, but the NIMBY's have already spoken out against that one. The people who live along that abanded spur in Rego Park and Forest Hills have more money, therefore more political clout and stopped that idea dead in its tracks, (pun intended). The people who live near the Van Wyke have much less money and didn't have the power to stop it.
That is why all of Robert Moses' highways have so many turns. Those who had big bucks could keep him off their property, those who didn't had to move.]
Not just true of Moses's highways. I know of at least one interstate that takes a detour right around the property of someone who made a payoff . . .
"Who would want to go to Jamaica from JFK? There's nothing there but a railroad station."
That's right there's a railroad station - LIRR, E/J/Z and plenty of buses. Very ideal for travelers. Although, I would have prefer an extension of one of the rail lines to the airport, this plan is best thus far.
N Broadway Local
This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money. It's bad enough that airport passangers would have to lug their luggage onto a train, but to be FORCED to do it again at Jamaica makes a cab ride awfully attractive, traffic and all. Both airports need DIRECT service to midtown.
[This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money. It's bad enough that airport passangers would have to lug their luggage onto a train, but to be FORCED to do it again at Jamaica makes a cab ride awfully attractive, traffic and all. Both airports need DIRECT service to midtown.]
Yeah, no one will take it. No ridership, a total bust. What an incredible waste!
It's not just a matter of the length of the trip, or the fact that it requires a change. People going to the airport are anxious about missing their plane, and people coming back are tired and anxious to get home--the last thing they want to do is suss out a weird connection somewhere.
Josh,
Will you consider the extension of the E to JFK airport a waste too?
If you do (as I observed other posts), you're not an advocate for mass transit, but an adversary.
N Broadway Local
12/08/99
Once again AIRTRAIN , designed and conceived by AIRHEADS shows that New York City excels in shooting itself in the foot. While other cities made center city rail travel to airports a breeze , New York shows blatant incompetence. Remember , $5.00 to shlep your luggage and ride to Jamaica station and decide either subway or LIRR. Catch them at the wrong time and you'll experience standing (with luggage)at rush hour or long headways. As stated in and earlier post , taking a taxi for the one seat ride paying through the nose seems more attractive than AIRTRAIN and MTA!
Bill Newkirk
Don't blame the MTA entirely for this -- this is part of a turf war between the Port Authority and the MTA. Plus, with half of the Port's board being from New Jersey, a quick one-seat ride from Manhattan would not be good news for Newark Airport, which is gettinga rail link of its own.
How exactly will the transfer work between NJT and the EWR monorail? Will there be a platform transfer, or is there to be some schlepping involved?
I don't suppose PATH will be extended to meet the monorail....
It will have to be up to ADA standards, which means elevators, so Probably a elevator, stairs and maybe a escalator, and cross over to monorail platforms
[It will have to be up to ADA standards, which means elevators, so Probably a elevator, stairs and maybe a escalator, and cross over to monorail platforms.]
Sad--EWR will be in even worse shape than JFK, which will at least be convertible to a one stop ride.
If you ride past the station (between Newark and North Elizabeth) you can see pretty clearly that the Monorail station will be directly parallel to the NJT northbound traks. Yes, this means that you will have to go up over and back down to get to the Monorail. I would agree that there will probably be escalators to all platforms and elevators. I don't think the walk will be quite as bad as JFK, but it's hard to estimate distances at 50-mph.
[Don't blame the MTA entirely for this -- this is part of a turf war between the Port Authority and the MTA. Plus, with half of the Port's board being from New Jersey, a quick one-seat ride from Manhattan would not be good news for Newark Airport, which is gettinga rail link of its own.]
So damn typical. We should call it the Hamilton-Burr Stupidity Contest, because a sensible approach would mean a one stop ride to Newark, JFK, and Laguardia via commuter railroad, subway tracks, and PATH on the basis of what's most convenient--and that would benefit *both* states.
"Will you consider the extension of the E to JFK airport a waste too?"
And you think it's a good idea to add more passengers to an already overburdened line by extending it?
[Josh,
Will you consider the extension of the E to JFK airport a waste too?
If you do (as I observed other posts), you're not an advocate for mass transit, but an adversary.]
Not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about the A? Here and elsehwere, the question for me is basically what gives you the most bang for the buck. A superexpress from JFK to Atlantic Avenue to a downtown station, Penn Station, and GCT would for the most part accomplish the same thing as a subway extension, but with the distinct advantage of serving area businesss and being much faster; it would serve many more people than offering a slower, lower amenity service through the subway. In practice, the Airtrain will run to the A, and while there's no reason through service couldn't be arranged from the subway, as I understand it Airtrain is being underbuilt and won't be able to handle the weight of subway cars.
Does anyone know how the Howard Beach connection would work? I take the A there everyday and the Airtrain structure is practically up against the station wall. What sort of structural changes will the Howard Beach-JFK station undergo (i.e. island platform, escalators, etc.) to make connections easy for travelers/employees?
I am not sure if this has been posted or not, but the daunting task of widening the Van Wyck is well underway. Once the shoulders are converted into lanes, the two left lanes would be closed to erect the structure on the median. Also, part of the Airtrain will be underground. From the terminal area, it will dive underground to cross the runways, then emerge at a portal being built at Federal Circle, and the Van Wyck. There is an at-grade portion as well, but I forgot where it was. :-) I think it might be where the maintenance facility is being built at the Nassau Expwy just west of the VW.
[This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money. It's bad enough that airport passangers would have to lug their luggage onto a train, but to be FORCED to do it again at Jamaica makes a cab ride awfully attractive, traffic and all. Both airports need DIRECT service to midtown.]
Yeah, no one will take it. No ridership, a total bust. What an incredible waste!
It's not just a matter of the length of the trip, or the fact that it requires a change. People going to the airport are anxious about missing their plane, and people coming back are tired and anxious to get home--the last thing they want to do is suss out a weird connection somewhere.
Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station - non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.
[Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station -non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy
reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.]
You are correct about the "idea", but I just don't think it's in the cards that the LIRR will go to either airport on LI. It's much more likely that the TA div. of the MTA will "buy" the Van Wyke line from the PORT after it's built. I also think it's unlikely that a La Guardia / JFK line will be created. The best we can hope for is an extension of the N.
P.S. I also see the PORT keeping the line to the parking lot.
Mr t__:^)
[Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station -non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy
reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.]
You are correct about the "idea", but I just don't think it's in the cards that the LIRR will go to either airport on LI. It's much more likely that the TA div. of the MTA will "buy" the Van Wyke line from the PORT after it's built. I also think it's unlikely that a La Guardia / JFK line will be created. The best we can hope for is an extension of the N.
P.S. I also see the PORT keeping the line to the parking lot.
Mr t__:^)
Isn't politics wonderful?!!
[Lets cut the crap. Have the JFK line go from the Airport onto the LIRR tracks into Penn Station - non-stop. Never mind this nonsense about Jamaica or the subway. The idea is to provide speedy reliable transportation from the Airport to Manhattan.]
Couldn't have said it better.
"This JFK-Jamaica idea is a TOTAL waste of money."
Oh nnnooooo ChrisR, What will make you happy?
I'm sorry they tore your jamaica Avenue elevated line years ago, however, I must say, this time the MTA did the right thing (jamaica center station). Besides, YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE USE THAT TRANSFER EVERYDAY?! Guest ChrisR, over 2 million people. That just wasn't the case with the old J line.
Anyway, we must move forward (you know it almost the new mellinum) not backwards.
This subway/LIRR/Bus connection gives potential customers plenty of options that wasn't available before.
My only criticism is the fact the E and J aren't on the same level; making the transfer a bit inconvenient.
ChrisR, just picture the decrepit elevated line still being there (far remove from the Long Island Railroad and not giving people options as I laid out in previous posts). NOW THAT WILL BE A WASTE!
N Broadway Line
I believe it's an (obsolete, kinda) moving block system. It works via a pair of wires on the tracks, which cross over at set intervals. beyond that, I don't know much about it.
You are correct, Bombardier is constructing the vehicles for the JFK Airtrain. Adtranz has absolutely nothing to do with the project. You are probably getting confused with Alcatel. Check out Bombardier's webpage. Work on the right-of-way has already commenced inside the airport, and work on the Van Wyck Expressway has evidently started with the construction of the road's shoulder into a travelling lane. This is so construction workers can capture the left-most lane to start construction in the median of the Van Wyck.
When I traveled to Puerto Rico in October I noticed a lot of the elevated portions of the line all over the airport especially in the long term parking lot and at the American Airline terminal.
On the back of a train, the route letter or number is posted.
Once, I saw something unusual. Instead of the normal R in a yellow circle, I saw a R in a brown diamond.
WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?
It was for the R to Chambers Street on the Nassau Street Line. They had used yellow and stopped the service shortly after they put the brown R on the roll.
I've seen this train too. The "brown diamond R" indicates the old 95th Street-Chambers St. Nassau St. special that ran during the rush hours from 1968-1987. In fact, the brown diamond "R" route only lasted 6 months, and only one map shows it. Prior to this date, the R special was the same color as the regular R (or RR prior to 1985), green from 68-78, and yellow from 1979-86.
Actually, the 4th Ave. "Bankers Special" rush hour service from 95th to the Nassau Loop dates back at least to the 1950s, and may have been run as early as the 1930s.
-- Ed Sachs
Yeah, but that train ran express, and it crossed the Manhattan Bridge to run south along Nassau St. It also was never called the R. It was usually reffered as the #2, or the "M" if they used subway cars made after 1960. I would consider the Banker's specials as a different line altogether.
Fourth Avenue Specials date from sometime in the 1930s; if you look at the service listings on the back of an old BMT map (the 1939 World's Fair one is fairly common to find), both the Brighton and Fourth Avenue Specials are listed. The curious thing is that the stations aren't listed for either one.
In the early 1950s, the morning Fourth Avenue Special made all stops from 95th to 59th, then stopped at Pacific (skipping 36th), Chambers, Fulton, Broad, returning to Brooklyn via the Tunnel (this has all been discussed here before). The TA changed AM rush service on Fourth Avenue in the mid-1950s so both Fourth Avenue and Sea Beach express service stopped at 36th Street.
In the evening, the Fourth Avenue Special ran from Broad to Fulton to Chambers across the Bridge to Pacific, 36th, 59th, and all the stops to 95th.
With the severe cuts to Nassau Street service (cut even more in recent years so that it's rush-hour only, I think), I wonder what happened to all of those people that used to ride Brighton and Fourth Avenue Specials, West End Locals, and Culver Locals and Expresses. Have that many jobs left the Wall Street area in the last 30 years?
(It's reminiscent of the thousands of Third Avenue El riders who disappeared after the El service in Manhattan was discontinued--reports for some time after said that the numbers of additional riders on Lexington Avenue and on the bus routes on the East Side did not match the El ridership.)
Picky point--going from Chambers to Broad, was the Special running BMT north or south? I would think it was actually BMT north, since Broad St. was the Manhattan terminal. The evening was much easier--it would have been going BMT-south as it went uptown from Broad St since it was Brooklyn-bound. Great folks, the BMTers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Why does the MTA suggest on their web site to use the letter designated lines instead of the numbered ones? Is it because the IND/BMT have wider and longer trains???
The IND/BMT cars are wider(1 foot) and longer(IRt is 51 ft and the BM
The IND/BMT cars are wider(1 foot) and longer(IRt is 51 ft and the BMT/IND can be 60 to 75 ft long). They also have 4 sets of doors on each side vs 3 on the IRT. Also- IND/BMT stations usually have wider plats.
[Why does the MTA suggest on their web site to use the letter designated lines instead of the numbered ones? Is it because the IND/BMT have wider and longer trains??? ]
Because the numbers are not Y2K compliant. For example they're expecting the number 1 train to become the &^% train when the date rolls over. This will confuse most tourists so the MTA is hoping they'll take the lettered trains instead. Regular New Yorkers are used to these odd disruptions and shouldn't be disturbed when a *(# train comes in place of the 5.
The other day my buddy and myself were having a Y2K discusion. Talking about subway systems. He stated that the worst that might happen on Jan. 1 is that maybe they might lose signals. Me being of logical mind said that if signals were lost so would third rail power.Could someone tell me if I am right on this issue? Or does the signals have there own power supply? Then the next thing he said really blow my mind in that if they had third rail power even without the signals working they would still run the trains but at a very reduced speed. Although there pretty reduced right now. Any comments on that last statement?
The other day my buddy and myself were having a Y2K discusion. Talking about subway systems. He stated that the worst that might happen on Jan. 1 is that maybe they might lose signals. Me being of logical mind said that if signals were lost so would third rail power.Could someone tell me if I am right on this issue? Or does the signals have there own power supply? Then the next thing he said really blow my mind in that if they had third rail power even without the signals working they would still run the trains but at a very reduced speed. Although there pretty reduced right now. Any comments on that last statement?
What difference does it make? With the signals out, no trains will run anyway. It would be suicide to run trains with the signals out.
If the power didn't go out that would be the only thing the subway would have to worry about every thing else is man(person to be correct)operated or dosen't have those two number abrevation code to mess up the system. I guess that's an advantage of haveing an old system
If the power didn't go out that would be the only thing the subway would have to worry about every thing else is man(person to be correct)operated or dosen't have those two number abrevation code to mess up the system. I guess that's an advantage of haveing an old system
But the trains still couldn't run without the signals. There would be so many collisions, it wouldn't be funny.
The old elevated lines ran without signals for many years, so there is no physical reason the subways couldn't. Of course, the motormen on the el lines were trained for this type of operation, and today's train operators aren't.
It would not be suicide. You would break out the radios and run the trains under DCS rules. At interlockings the tower operators could dust off those old order hoops and pass up FORM D's to every train that passes (if they MTA's smart they should run off a couple thoudand FORM D's at Kinkos before DEC 31). Most of the interlocking machines are Analogue or 50's relay machines and all they would need is a backup generator to keep the switch motors running.
I'd assume the signal system has some sort of backup anyway - perhaps a battery one. Of course, I think it also needs an air supply too.
How sepperated / integrated with Con Ed is the subway system today anyway? Not like Con Ed is gonna let the lights go out if they can avoid it.
There is battery backup for certain functions, mostly
in the interlocking logic in towers. However, all of
the track circuits are powered from 60 Hz or 25 Hz
and when the commercial power goes off, all the signals
go red. I do not think there are any UPS type systems
for this because this sort of failure is pretty common.
Both signal and traction power come from the commercial
power grid. In some areas, particularly the IRT and BMT
in Manhattan, 25 cycles is still used for signal and it
is generated by a frequency converted at Con Ed.
The 60 Hz power for the AC Track Circuits is derived from Automatic Transfer Switches by ASCO from two separate Con Edison substations. There is no UPS power used on the signaling on NYCT.
RULE 40 Signals; Signal Parts; Defective Signals and Interlocking Signals; Knowledge of Signals
(e) Missing, Unlit or Worngly Lit Signals
A train must STOP at a missing, unlit or worngly lit signal. This must be reported immediately via radio to the Command Center Desk Superintendent and the Train Operator must await instructions from the Comand Center Desk Superintendent.
So if power is lost on the signal system, trains can not pass unlit signals. All trains must call Command from what I see. I've been in a situtation where from DeKalb Ave to 7th Ave on the Brighton all signals went RED. Every train and every signal had to call command to get permision to key by. Kinda like the 509A rule on the railroads.
Since no one actually answered your question:
The signal and traction power are distributed through
entirely different networks. However, if the entire
commercial power grid fails, both will go off.
I still haven't seen the new subway cars. The southbound express track on the Dyre line has been restored, and it's supposed to be used as a test track. Luckily, I live half a block from the Pelham Parkway Station and I'll probably be on of the first to see the new stuff. Hahahahahahahahaha! Just kidding. Anyway, when is the new stuff coming in?Train Buff Headquarters
This past year has seen the MTA sell the subway more than ever before.(I paid $40 for a "NYC Subway Line" Messenger Bag at the museum)
You can get various items ranging from shirts to skateboards all with logos or station signs on them.
Are the TA's various sign patterns and letters copyrighted?
One example I can think of was the show on UPN "DiResita" about the Transit cop. They went as far as to make the (D) train green.
Do shows need permission just to use the various letters of the system?
Also, while theft of signs is obviously illegal, is making exact copies? The store "Transit" ( An Active wear/ Sneaker Store ) on Broadway in Noho is filled with some signs which look real, and some which look like bad copies.
Finally, has the TA ever sued anyone over this?
Thanks,
Fred
The TA's signs are the typeface Helvetica, whose use anyone can license from Adobe or Linotype.
Plus, there is no copyright in typefaces in the U.S. anyway.
And I can't picture the TA trademarking a station sign, which consists of common lettering and a public street name.
Who knows what kind of action a litigious TA would take these days. Companies always made railroad car models with paint designs, logos, etc., and never paid royalties to the railroads, now some railroads want to license this stuff.
Paul, here's something related to this topic: the rare "BLAZE" MetroCard (advertising a "Hip-Hop" magazine of the same name) used TA type letters (with appropriate route-line colors) to spell out the B-L-A-Z-E title on a black background ala a subway station sign.
At the very bottom and in a type size of about pt.4 there is a credit: "Subway Line Indicators Copyright (the symbol, not spelled out) MTA". So it would seem that when the appropriate letters are used within circles of corresponding colors to subway route lines, then that constitutes a copyright infringement against the MTA -- or so we are led to believe.
What do you make of that?
Doug aka BMTman
[ Copyrighting the route letter/number emblems ]
What do I make of it? The MTA is getting aggressive about some really doubtful stuff. The MTA has a legal department. Some person or company with a good intellectual property attorney might be able to effectively face down some of this stuff, but who would bother?
Isn't the MTA taxpayer funded? So doesn't the public have a right to use their signs?
No.
Isn't the MTA taxpayer funded? So doesn't the public have a right to use their signs?
The MTA is surely pushing the envelope of intellectual property. I used to be in the hobby industry. When you were interested in producing a model of, say, a railroad car, you would write the manufacturers or the railroad and, once they determined you were an actual model company, they would help with pictures and plans. They never asked for a licensing fee--maybe they considered that models of their equipment were free and positive publicity. Now many want licensing fees. How much can these fees possibly add to their bottom lines?
As to the "publicly funded" part: generally, studies, etc. of the Federal Gummint (and I think most states), compilations of laws, etc., are automatically in the public domain. For example, you don't need permission to reprint parts of the Federal Register.
However, you get into yet another really fuzzy area since the era of public ownership of what are essentially businesses.
The MTA could argue that the subway, say, is a business that just happens to be owned by the government, not a government service, per se. Under this theory, they could license things like the subway map to other commercial entities and pass the profits on to their owners, the taxpayers.
The possibility of a subway strike helps focus this public/private dilemma: why, exactly, did the employees of the BMT and IRT become public employees, gaining civil service protections but losing the right to strike? Simply because the government bought their employer? Is this consistent with our concepts of free enterprise and the rights of employees?
Isn't the MTA taxpayer funded? So doesn't the public have a right to use their signs?
The MTA is surely pushing the envelope of intellectual property. I used to be in the hobby industry. When you were interested in producing a model of, say, a railroad car, you would write the manufacturers or the railroad and, once they determined you were an actual model company, they would help with pictures and plans. They never asked for a licensing fee--maybe they considered that models of their equipment were free and positive publicity. Now many want licensing fees. How much can these fees possibly add to their bottom lines?
As to the "publicly funded" part: generally, studies, etc. of the Federal Gummint (and I think most states), compilations of laws, etc., are automatically in the public domain. For example, you don't need permission to reprint parts of the Federal Register.
However, you get into yet another really fuzzy area since the era of public ownership of what are essentially businesses.
The MTA could argue that the subway, say, is a business that just happens to be owned by the government, not a government service, per se. Under this theory, they could license things like the subway map to other commercial entities and pass the profits on to their owners, the taxpayers.
The possibility of a subway strike helps focus this public/private dilemma: why, exactly, did the employees of the BMT and IRT become public employees, gaining civil service protections but losing the right to strike? Simply because the government bought their employer? Is this consistent with our concepts of free enterprise and the rights of employees?
The TA wants licensing fees? Absurd! They are not a business. They are a publicly owned governmental agency. Intellectual property? Get out of here! If you model US military aircraft, do you also need to pay a licensing fee? Same thing. Another publicly owned governmental agency. If you put the American flag on something, do you need to apply to the Federal Government and pay licensing fees? However, if I want to put into production and sell dartboards with Clinton's face, I guess I'd have to ask the idiot's permission and pay him royalties!
[However, if I want to put into production and sell dartboards with Clinton's face, I
guess I'd have to ask the idiot's permission and pay him royalties! ]
No, you wouldn't. As a public figure, his image can be used without compensation. Look at that guy who set up a Giuliani target in Washington Square Park and invited people to throw "elephant dung" (not the real thing) at it. Did he have to pay Rudy? I think not.
P.S. The *real* thing is collected at the Bronx Zoo and shipped across the street to the NY Botanical Garden, where it is used as fertilizer. Mo joke.
[However, if I want to put into production and sell dartboards with Clinton's face, I
guess I'd have to ask the idiot's permission and pay him royalties! ]
No, you wouldn't. As a public figure, his image can be used without compensation. Look at that guy who set up a Giuliani target in Washington Square Park and invited people to throw "elephant dung" (not the real thing) at it. Did he have to pay Rudy? I think not.
P.S. The *real* thing is collected at the Bronx Zoo and shipped across the street to the NY Botanical Garden, where it is used as fertilizer. Mo joke.
I guess I could make some money selling rubber piles of dog s--t to people to throw at a poster of Bill and Hillary Clinton. Especially if I don't have to pay them royalties. I probably would have to pay royalties to the person who ownes the dog, whose s--t I would be producing a rubber likeness of!
Lots of piles in my back yard, no royalties required :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The possibility of a subway strike helps focus this public/private
dilemma: why, exactly, did the employees of the BMT and IRT become
public employees, gaining civil service protections but losing the right
to strike? Simply because the government bought their employer? Is this
consistent with our concepts of free enterprise and the rights of
employees?]
Interesting proposition, Paul. The MTA is a government agency, yet the things they run -- the buses, subways, commuter rail lines -- have traditionaly been privately owned entities. Yeah, it is something of a dilemma, and perhaps is the reason for alot of the management/employee relation problems at NYCT currently, and over the years.
BTW, while we're on the subject of the MTA and their business accume: On the packaging for the MTH R-42 subway cars is a sticker that has the official "MTA" logo with the text, "Officially licensed". That says loads to anyone who buys the train sets. It indicates the MTA is acting like a private "for-profit" corporation rather than a government agency. When the MTA was first formed it held a "gray-area" stigma of being quasi-government/quasi-private sector. Unfortunately, it is still with the MTA today as we go into a new millenium.
Doug aka BMTman
You basically got the gist of it, except for one thing: In the case of the letters or numbers inside circles to signify certain lines (i.e. A, B, C, D, 1, 7, S), they have also used Standard Medium (also known in some corners as Akzidenz Grotesk) in one variation or another since 1967 when the color-coded system for individual subway routes was first introduced. As for Helvetica, it is actually Helvetica Medium.
Yes, I always thought that the route numbers/letters of the NYCT were more of a Helvetica Medium or Bold than just a regular Helvetica face (aka Helios).
Doug aka BMTman
(1) The MTA is a quasi-governmental entity (think The Port Authority, Health and Hospitals Corp). That is, it is established by law and must be operated in accordance with such laws and regulations. However, it is independent in that it is not directly responsible to the governor, mayor, or county executives. It has its own Board, Chairman, etc.
(2) Even if it were a governmental/public entity, the MTA would have the right to license/copyright its intellectual property. The line letter/number indicators are kind of sticky, because they may be considered generic, but thinkgs like token design, subway maps, slogans, pictures, etc are surely copyrightable. The federal government pursued claims against several companies selling products with the White House and Presidential seal. They license such symbols to certain companies, who then have the right to use the symbols.
-Waldo, who took one long semester of copyright law in law school.
When the subway was built, how the designers and engineers plan the subway stations? In other words, how did they plan the stops along the subway line.Its obvious how they did this in Manhattan, but how did they plan stops for the viaduct line which ran above Broadway which is known as part of the original subway line,and the Westchester Avenue route which opened a few years after the Broadway line.
Well, I can tell you that the planning for stations has changed, in a more specific time frame, between the 1904 IRT and the 1932 IND openings. Back in ’04 when the IRT opened, the local stations were 200’ long and the expresses were 350’. Which proved to be VERY insufficient in re passenger traffic, and it wasn’t until the 1960’s that all IRT platforms had an average length of 525’. But when the IND was being planned, they assumed the “shortest” trains would be 10 cars MAX., hence most local platforms on the Eighth Avenue line from 72nd to 163rd Streets, as well as the majority of local stations on the Queens Boulevard branch between Elmhurst Avenue and 67th Avenue, are 600’ (which, if you think about it, is three times the length of original 1904 IRT local platforms). All other IND stations (1932-40) had an average length of 660’, with variations previously expounded on.
Now that’s station platform length for you. Now, on to distance between stations: You’ll notice that what was relevant in 1904 became passé in later years, as witness the closings of Worth Street, 18th Street (/Park Avenue South) and 91st Street. To say nothing of City Hall. With the exception of the last-named stop, all stations in question were too close to other platforms once lengthened.
A question was asked earlier about the subway cars at the Fire Department Training Facility on Randall's Island. The R-44 is #227. If I can find out the number of the R-12 I'll post it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
R12? I thought maybe there was an unidentified R21/22 out there in white paint.
-Stef
Stef; You could be right. I was going by what the poster said that he saw an R-44 and an R-12. I rode the M-60 bus pass there last year but couldn't see the cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi, I am working on a school project in which I am designing an ECommerce site having to do with New York City. I am wondering if anyone knows roughly how much it cost to advertise on the subway. Thanks.
I would like to know if station on the old Erie Main Line are still in place today at Monroe, Goshen & Chester. If so, where are the stations located at, specially in Monroe.
Monroe: no. The station structure is gone. The low-level platform remains, as well as some underpasses marked Erie with some year in the concrete.
Goshen & Chester: Dunno
Just west of the current Harriman station along this main line, just off route 17 in Harriman (where it's 2 lanes and passes under this line) is a station building still standing but boarded up. I'm not familiar with what station this was.
--Mark
Mark...The station just off the Rt. 17 underpass is the old Harriman station. The Chester and Goshen depots still exist, the former a real estate office, the latter the Goshen police dept.
Carl M.
The "bitanic" is gone, replaced this week by new equipment! I guess
those FL-9s have gone onto bigger and better things...
What's a "bitanic?"
[What's a "bitanic?"]
An appropriate nickname for the prototype bilevel trainset that the LIRR's used for the last several years on the Pt. Jefferson line. It provided one-seat service to Penn Station using a couple of FL-9 locomotives converted to dual mode operation. When, that is, it was actually in running condition, which wasn't all that often.
I was on it a grand total of 3 times, over senior year of HS, when I was taking motorcycle lessons out in Northport (a LONG post in itself! :) I remember it was pretty neat, but the lights blinked on and off a LOT. Oh yes, they had a nice sound to them when they were first around, but I saw one a few weeks ago at mineola, and they're louder now.
Oh well, I guess if you want FL-9s you'll just have to settle with Metro-North now :)
I think the NY Times had an articleon it once titled "the little train that (sometimes) can", or something to that effect. I also remember being told the Oyster bay line would get them in 1996 :)
12/08/99
When those FL-9's are returned to Metro North wanna bet they'll go straight to the dead line at Croton North ? Knowing the LIRR , those FL-9's must be in sad shape.
And for those C-1 bi-levels that are up for sale , any railroads out there need any stainless steel boxcars ??
Bill Newkirk
Josh's comments on the N to LaGuardia echo many others I've heard.
In this view, we should stop trying to improve the subway system, and certainly should expand it but instead should build a separate system for the more affluent. It doesn't have to be that much different than a regular subway. The key would be a higher price and exclusivity -- keeping us unattractive low-lifes off.
In this view, we would not only build all the proposed commuter rail extenstions, but also build the 2nd Avenue subway as a "snobway" with an express-bus level fare. It could hook into the LIRR routes in Queens, the Dyre Avenue line in the Bronx, and perhaps the Brighton line in Brooklyn. It would have no overlapping platforms with the regular subway, and joint stations would have fare control between services. It would include an express subway direct from Jamaica to GCT, as well as local stops on 2nd Avenue. The Hudson line could be used to provide snobway service to the Upper West Side.
A snobway would be easier to finance, if you assume people would go for it, because of the higher fare and the ability to sell station naming rights. It would also "solve" any future crowding problems on the subway -- if the Lex is crowded, pay up and take the snobway, if you can't afford it, too bad.
The question is, if a snobway was available, would it get all the subsidies and capital improvements, and would the subway be left to rot. My guess is yes, so I don't like the idea. Extend the regular subway to LaGuardia. Us regular people will ride it.
Hey, If the snobway kept away rowdy school kids and smelly homeless people I would pay the higher price. After all, whenever I go to the track I pay for the clubhouse.
We know that the 'snobway' will never be built, but maybe an additional fare premium subway service might not be the worst idea. Collecting the additional fare is the big hurdle. And how would we keep the riff-raff off anyway?
It's like METRA and the CTA for some routes they overlap and the METRA fare is less than CTA. Not as frequent but faster.
The Blue line to O'hare is used by the flying public but it is used more by the peole that work at or near the airport and they go to work at least 5 days a week. Food service, baggage, ticketing, people its really noticable if you depart in the AM rush or leave in the PM rush.
The difference on the left and right side of the platform is noticable during the peak period. Suits vs Blue. But remember people need to get to work and they price they pay daily will make up for a lot of once in a while rides that I pay when I need to fly. The people working out there daily keep the service in place when I need it and thats golden with me.
The Blue line from O'Hare is the best deal going for flyers headed to the Loop-- $1.50 for about a 25-30 mile train ride is CHEAP, the cab fare would probably be 20 times that
12/09/99
If such as thing would see the light of day wouldn't the homeless,rowdy school kids and others band together , hire the ACLU and cry discrimination ?
Bill Newkirk
The only way to prevent this is just to eliminate the prerequisites and have people by expensive cards to ride the line, only months at a time (much money down) and perhaps have waiting lists.
[The only way to prevent this is just to eliminate the prerequisites and have people by expensive cards to ride the line, only months at a time (much money down) and perhaps have waiting lists.]
Eugenius, as long as you were knocking other people's spelling (such as PGitty) I might as well point out the word above is "BUY", not "by"!!!
That's OK, if that wasn't a typo, I'd actually WANT somebody to correct my spelling.
If the snobway guarantees a seat, then BUILD IT!
[If the snobway guarantees a seat, then BUILD IT!]
Amen to that.
You should have to fill out an application to be granted riding "privileges". You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up. Your ancestors would either have to be from the Mayflower, of Dutch aristocratic origin, a decendent of Peter Stuyvesant or a member of the British Royal Family. If you don't meet those qualifications, you would need to be a celebrity--an actor/actress, sports superstar or a rock star. Charge a $10 fare. Offer a complimentary snort of cocaine on board. have conductors with a snooty, uppity British accent announcing the stations and telling the riders "Welcome to the Snobway". Where's your Rolex? Are you sure you're supposed to be here?
"You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up."
Household or personal?
"You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up."
Household or personal?
Personal. We're talking about a Snobway. To qualify for riding privileges, your nose has to be so far up in the air that you get nosebleed from the altitude.
"Personal"
Aww, that's a shame. But I wouldn't have qualified anyway with that English or Dutch Nobility thing. So much for everybody being born e qualitas.
"Personal"
Aww, that's a shame. But I wouldn't have qualified anyway with that English or Dutch Nobility thing. So much for everybody being born e qualitas.
I don't think anyone on SubTalk qualifies. Maybe Bill Gates? The people who do qualify to ride the snobway also qualify for and are given a user ID and password to post on the "SnobTalk" bulletin board.
But they'd be so snobbish that their butler would be the only one who knew how to use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But they'd be so snobbish that their butler would be the only one who knew how to use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, their butlers can log onto SnobTalk, read the posts to their masters and take dictation on what to post for their masters.
ANNOUNCING THE LUXURIOUS AND SWIFT NEW R-144 Snobway VEHICLE Featuring *Quick but smooth acceleration to 75 MPH. *Radar collision avoidance system *High tech suspension system. *Integrated personal entertainment package.*Laptop receptacle with inductive packet internet access *NO Straps * Seats of RICH CORINTHIAN LEATHER :-)
Snobway stations would look like the Moscow Metro, sans the peasant riffraff.
I'm not finished. The snobway would have it's own Philharmonic Orchestra playing in each station. Uniformed turnstilemen would open the gates for the people. Each passenger would be given a glass of champagne or a pricey wine. Contraband Cuban cigars would be available in the luxuriously appointed smoking cars and above all, this line would not (gasp!) leave the Borough of Manhattan, or even go far enough north, lest our great elite fall asleep on the train and end up in some questionable locale.
(Wouldn't leave Manhattan)
Actually, my proposed snobway (see De-unification) would extend up two new local tracks on the Amtrak ROW in the Bronx, out the Atlantic Branch to Jamaica to take LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan via the RPAs proposed Atlantic Avenue tunnel, capture the Brighton line via an Atlantic Avenue connection (also thru the Atlantic Avenue tunnel) with a new stop near Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill, and operate the LIRR Port Washington Line and the reactivated LIRR line to JFK, via the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. Lots of express bus riders and drivers out there in those locales. Lots of snobs, too.
I'm not finished. The snobway would have it's own Philharmonic Orchestra playing in each station. Uniformed turnstilemen would open the gates for the people. Each passenger would be given a glass of champagne or a pricey wine. Contraband Cuban cigars would be available in the luxuriously appointed smoking cars and above all, this line would not (gasp!) leave the Borough of Manhattan, or even go far enough north, lest our great elite fall asleep on the train and end up in some questionable locale.
Elegant subway cars with velvet walls, shag carpet floors, 14K gold trim, stereo PA with piped-in music. For an extra fee, you could go to the dining car during evening rush hour and dine on the finest Filet Mignon. A fancy French Garcon would take your order for the meal. The train would never leave the tunnel, because going through the ghetto areas could make you sick enough to up-chuck your steak. After a fine meal, fit for a king, a slice of New York style Cheese Cake with an after-dinner Congnac. then, its time to retreat to the smoking car for a fine Cuban cigar. By the time you get home, you're so punchy from all the booze that your wife says "Poor Baby! You must have had a hard day at the office!"
{You would qualify if your income was $100,000 and up.]
If that's your criterion, fully 36% of the passengers at LaGuardia airport qualify.
[Josh's comments on the N to LaGuardia echo many others I've heard.
In this view, we should stop trying to improve the subway system, and certainly should expand it but instead should build a separate system for the more affluent. It doesn't have to be that much different than a regular subway. The key would be a higher price and exclusivity -- keeping us unattractive low-lifes off.
In this view, we would not only build all the proposed commuter rail extenstions, but also build the 2nd Avenue subway as a "snobway" with an express-bus level fare. It could hook into the LIRR routes in Queens, the Dyre Avenue line in the Bronx, and perhaps the Brighton line in Brooklyn. It would have no overlapping platforms with the regular subway, and joint stations would have fare control between services. It would include an express subway direct from Jamaica to GCT, as well as local stops on 2nd Avenue. The Hudson line could be used to provide snobway service to the Upper West Side.
A snobway would be easier to finance, if you assume people would go for it, because of the higher fare and the ability to sell station naming rights. It would also "solve" any future crowding problems on the subway -- if the Lex is crowded, pay up and take the snobway, if you can't afford it, too bad.
The question is, if a snobway was available, would it get all the subsidies and capital improvements, and would the subway be left to rot. My guess is yes, so I don't like the idea. Extend the regular subway to LaGuardia. Us regular people will ride it.]
Specifically, the median income of travellers at LGA is stunningly high--only 18% have incomes below $40,000/year, and the mean income is an amazing $91,000. If you build soup kitchens on Park Avenue, don't expect people to come.
More generally:
1. The one real justification for building links to the areas airports is that businesses list poor airport access as one of their main reasons for wanting to leave the City. Otherwise, we'd be better off spending the money on other areas of the subway system that serve more people and so would do more good.
Businesses pay the bills, and that means that from my perspective if their requests are reasonable they come first. As I've said, you don't lift people out of poverty by providing services, you lift them out by giving them jobs. But even that distinction is neither here nor there if you can't provide services because there aren't any businesses and prosperous residents to pay the taxes.
2. I see nothing wrong with providing services to the middle class. On the contrary, New York City has done a pretty fair job of driving out it's middle class residents in favor of the very rich and the very poor. That doesn't do good things for the City's economy, for its integrity as a community, and for the middle class itself, which it seems to me has the same right to appropriate schools and transportation as everyone else.
3. If the City wants to be competitive with the suburbs, both as a place to live and a place to work, it has to provide middle class people with the amenities they're used to. People who live and work in the suburbs have an average commute of 20 minutes in the comfort of their cars. For the City, not providing a comparable level of overall servies and amenities is the equivalent of slow economic suicide. In some cases that's not practical--the great density of the City and the cost of construction makes it impractical to build more than one sytem of public transportation.
4. That being said, I do not think a general upgrade of the subway system would be right *because of the poor.* It doesn't make sense to charge a poor person for amenities he doesn't need and can't afford. It doesn't make sense for the City to provide poverty-level service to middle class people who can obtain better in suburban communities. The trick, therefore, is to provide both levels of service insofar as possible, keeping in mind that when a service is subsidized the middle class is picking up most of the tab anyway.
5. For political reasons, the government of New York State and the Port Authority are currently weighted towards suburban communities. The City must compete for middle class residents with these communtities.
5. The best way to help the poor is to improve their incomes. Subsidies are wasteful and inefficient, because they distort the economic picture and frequently benefit the wrong people. Frankly, I suspect that most of the City's poor would rather spend $700 million on rent and necessities than a subway to LaGuardia, where they rarely go anyway. Help people earn decent incomes; they'll figure out what they need.
6. And the best way to improve the incomes of the poor is to give them jobs, which takes us back to 1.
I passed through South Station, Boston, this morning, and AMTRAK has set-up a model simple railroad layout in the center of the waiting room. One loop has a model ACELA train running, and another has a model "freight" train running (with Santa & gifts, etc.). The layout is in a Christmas holiday theme, of course. I believe it's G gauge (larger than Lionel!).
Well, I guess they telling the truth about Acela going to Boston by 2000 after all!!!
BTW - Anyone know where Amtrak hides these things? I know there's supposed to be one or 2 in Philly, along with an HHP-8. Anyone know where one can get a view?
Also, anyone know anyone who could get their hands on a testing schedule? I'd love to see one in action up here, and I'm not that far from the NEC (Hartford's only redeeming advantage is it's an hour or so away from any of the important places in the world (NYC and Boston))
There was (still there to my knowledge) a train (second one to be sent here) which is tested late at night between Philly and Harrisburg. To see it, you have to be on an Amtrak train (not sure about SEPTA) just north of 30th Street and it is to the west (I think) of where the Amtrak train is.
Would you please tell me what tokens cost now for the subway. I live in Florida now and will be visiting for the holidays. Also would you happen to know LIR rates from Penn Station to Valley Stream. Thanks!
[Would you please tell me what tokens cost now for the subway. I live in Florida now and will be visiting for the holidays. Also would you happen to know LIR rates from Penn Station to Valley Stream. Thanks!]
The basic subway fare is $1.50 per ride. Most people use MetroCards (plastic fare cards) instead of tokens these days. You get a free ride for every $15 you put on a MetroCard. Depending on your length of stay and travel plans, you might be better off with a 7-day unlimited use MetroCard, which allows you to ride all you want for $17. There's also a one-day unlimited use MetroCard, called a "fun pass," that costs $4.
Valley Stream LIRR fares are $4.25 each way, $6.25 during rush hour.
You should probably visit the official site of the subways and LIRR at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/ for such information. This is not the official site for fare information-- although you may recieve responses here keep in mind they are not necessarily "official" information.
Please, its the LIRR!!! I once read somewhere the LIRR is the ONLY railroad in the world where "railroad" is two words!!!
INDIANA RAIL ROAD CORP (INRD)
NEW HOPE & IVYLAND RAIL ROAD (NHRR)
OTTER VALLEY RAIL ROAD (OV)
The LIRR was incorporated on April 24, 1834 as the "Long Island Rail Road Company". However, looking at old timetables, booklets and tickets that I have, there seems to have been times when they freely used "Railroad". Perhaps it was just a lack of attention to detail or maybe the name of the company really did change. I haven't done any research in this area but I wonder if, with all the bankruptcies, receiverships, etc. that plagued the LIRR in its early years, there were times when it was "Railroad". Both Seyfried and Ziel use "Rail Road" exclusively in their books. I would appreciate any information that anyone has on this.
Yeah, Bob, I noticed that in the Seyfried book you lent me. Seyfried himself mentioned early in the book that the LIRR first when under the spelling "Rail Road" but later -- and at an undetermined date -- they went under "Railroad". Being an historian, he opted to use "Rail Road" throughout his book.
Please keep us informed on this topic.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually at the turn of the last century, it was quite Proper English to separate compound words like that. Baseball was properly spelled Base Ball well into 1920's and 30's for another example...That disappeared about the same time that a persons nickname stopped having quotation marks around it....For example, Babe Ruth's name will appear in print as "Babe" Ruth well into the 20's...
The name in their state charter dated 1834, actually reads Long Island Rail Road.
At their headquarters in Jamaica, Queens. The sign on the facade of the building proclaims "Long Island Rail Road Co." I think that is your answer. Most likely ticket and timetable printers made the error of combining "Rail" & "Road". I reciently saw Mr. Seyfried on the Parlor car fantrip (LIST-NRHS) And asked him this question and he also said that the official name of the R.R. is : "The Long Island Rail Road Company"
The MTA decided to "modernize" the LIRR in one leap a decade or so ago, by announcing it was now the "Long Island Railroad" and the ever-correct New York Times began referring to it as the "LIR" (as in the title of this post).
BUT:
1. This change was never officially made--it's still the "Rail Road" and
2. In the U.S. railroad is "RR" anyway, whether it's one word or two. Did you ever stop at an "R" crossing? A single "R" in the U.S. stands for "Railway" as in Southern Railway, which was abbreviated SR.
And while on the subject, don't take variations in terminology on railroad ephemera (like tickets, timetables) too seriously. In decades past, businesses weren't always so compulsive about these.
For example, at the time I was writing about the SIRT (which, BTW, is still legally SIRTOA, not SIR) it was the "Staten Island Rapid Transit RAILWAY Company" yet I have a check mailing envelope they sent me that says "Staten Island Rapid Transit RAILROAD."
Don't forget the Southern Rail Road of New Jersey or SJRR.
Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned from the Philly transit strike. We've go Philly people on the site.
What happened to ridership, public funding, and downtown business activity? How was morale and performance after the strike -- did service reliability and absenteeism to up or down?
(Had a BIE and a 20 minute delay with some excuse about debris on the track today. Hmmm.)
I know that the strike resulted in causing my mother to purchase a car.
Many people are tired of being at the whim of rude and lazy SEPTA employees.
Ridership did go down and has only recently come back to pre-strike(6/1/98-7/10/98 IIRC).
After the strike ended, SEPTA opened up the system. Free rides on all lines and equipment the weekend following the end of the strike.
I haven't noticed a marked change in performance or employee activity, but here's the thing. You can usually better gauge that sort of thing from buses. And since I absolutely loathe SEPTA buses and never ride them, I can't say.
As for downtown, not many business had long-term affects if any. Remember, the Regional Rail network was still running so they became extremely popular during the strike and some found them a better way around.
The most we've been hearing about SEPTA now is equipment problems-mainly escalators/elevators that don't work and unsafe buses.
Yes I was reading the Philly DailyNews 2 Weeks ago about the Unsafe Busses. The Supervisers Ordered there workers to put Inspection Stikers and Busses that did not pass the PA state Inspection. They called it Lick'em and Stick'em. This Put SEPTA Bus Divers and Riders and Risk. Now PENNDOT will take over.
Larry,
BIE's come and they go regarless of the reason they need investigating. Without even the threat of a STRIKE a BIE has no time limit to investigate the cause if not for debris on the roadbed god forbid people have been found under the train causing the emergency brake application. The Operator must check around the train and a sufficient behind the train, so to say it'll take 5 minutes is a lotta BULL.
Yes I remember the Philly SEPTA Strike. I payed close attention on my Philly Channels Like News 3 and KYW 1060 covered it well. I watched Channel 6 when the Strike happened at 12PM meaning People rode SEPTA to work But had to Walk Home. I remember Seeing the Pickets at 69 Street and seeing SEPTA Employees challenge the people who got too close to there Picket line. I saw on Channel 3 during the Big City Hall Rally our own Willy James rally up the crowd of SEPTA workers and said We wouldn't take this in New York. I must say I fell out of my seat when hearing that after selling us out by Reopening our Contract. The SEPTA City Division Workers also Blocked Commuter trains at least 4 diffrent times. That may be a Idea for us Because that hurt SEPTA the Most in my Opinion. It was also a violent Strike. A SEPTA security Guy was shot in his van packed around Union Headquarters. The Guy was only Injured but thats not the point.
I did go and Talk to a SEPTA Motorman after the strike and they said they got the Money but they lost more then they got and More Harassment from Supervision and More Work by going in and out at the Terminals.
Also those that crossed the Picket Line did suffer some kind of Violents.
I was around Philly during the strike and I can tell you that the central bussiness district just died after 5 PM. I was visiting Penn and I was walking back to 8th and Market to catch PATCO at about 6 PM and Center City was just a ghost town. Nobody was around. The normally bussling Galery Mall was deserted and 90% of the stores had closed early. I was lucky to find a chineese place to get a quick bite to eat before I headed home. If you look at things today, at 6 PM the Galery is a zoo, packed with people all shopping and spending. So I'd have to say that many of the small time bussniesses lost big.
"I was around Philly during the strike and I can tell you that the central bussiness district just died after 5 PM."
So, nothing was any different from usual.
Had to say it,
Chuck
Chuck, when's the last time you were in Center City after 5 PM? Take a walk down there today and you'll see something markedly different.
As Subway Steve said, the strike had an effect but mostly on the transit dependent (boy, wasn't that obvious?). The real effect was not a good one for transit - life went on pretty much as normal for 40 days for most people, commuters got to work, there were no major traffic disasters as there have been in the past, and Regional Rail got a big shot in the arm! The big lesson was that, unlike in previous strikes, Phila folks just aren't as dependent on SEPTA as they once were. Places like the Gallery were hurt since, if you have to drive, it's easier to drive and park free at a suburban mall than come downtown, pay thru the nose, and shop at the same stores. Same with folks who shopped after work - with many people car-pooling or taking trains (which don't run as well after the peaks as the City Transit lines in Center City)) - they didn't hang around.
One huge effect was on the reverse commute - many city folks couldn't get to suburban jobs. This was felt big-time.
SEPTA still hasn't gained back all the riders lost due to this strike. Some stayed on the trains. Others bought cars. All in all, SEPTA lost and probably will never get the riders back. The strike was a significant blow to transit in Phila.
It's good to hear that Center City has some life again. I used to be down there two or three times a year through about 1995 -- Center City would be dead by 6 PM. Even that mall-like thing (is that the Gallery?) near the CIGNA building was empty.
Now I don't spend as much time in Philly anymore -- once a year, 3 days for the Penn Relays. Sounds like this year I'll have to head out of the hotel after the races and see all that's going on rather than assuming nothing's changed.
Chuck
I've noticed that, too. After about 7:00 PM or so, everything seems to
close in Center City Philly. On Saturdays, the last outbound R2
commuter train to Marcus Hook departs Market East Station at 8:20 PM,
and Sunday, 7:20 PM. For some reason, all the other lines seem to run
much later. A few years ago, 24 hour service on the Market-Frankford
and Broad Street Lines were discontinued. Why can't Philly be like
New York City...whith many restaurants and stores staying open 24
hours a day, or at least staying open late at night, as well as
resuming 24 hour service on the rapid transit lines? I go into Philly
often, and I have friends who live in the city, and it would be great
to see Philly, just like New York City, become a "City That Never
Sleeps"!!
I agree. I haven't lived in Philly long enough to have seen 24-hour service. Why was it discontinued? That is a shame.
Bars don't close 'til 2:00 around here. It might help drunk driving incidents of transit was available until at least 3:00...
Actually most of NYC sleeps. Midtown, or parts of it, never sleeps, but if the NIMBYs had their way it would sleep too.
What was that old WC Fields Saying. I went to Philly one day and found it closed. No changes yet huh?
Actually most of NYC sleeps. Midtown, or parts of it, never sleeps, but if the NIMBYs had their way it would sleep too
NIMBY stands for:
N Numbskull
I Imbecile
M Moron
B Birdbrain
Y Yokel
"After about 7:00 PM or so, everything seems to close in Center City Philly."
Where exactly in center city are you talking about? I'm assuming you mean the business district around Market St. That dies when the business day is over - just like Wall St.
I lived in Center City Philly before moving to the Village in NY. There are MANY places that are bustling with activity in Philly well after 7:00. Go to Old City on the first Friday of the Month for First Friday's. Go to Chestnut east of 4th street, especially on the weekends. This area is packed with high end restaurants and bars (Paradigm, Roccoco, Plough & Stars . . .) 13th and Walnut doesn't die down until 3:30 or 4:00 on Weekends. And unlike NY, philly hasn't swept all the tranny hookers off the streets yet.
Last call, not closing, is 2:00am. Some clubs serve till 3:30. And some stay open without serving 'till 5:00am (Shampoo) and sometimes even later with permission.
Philly has many restaurants that stay open until at least Midnight. And more have opened in the past 2 years than in any time in memory before that. Center City is experiencing quite a revival. Maybe that's why rental vacancies are less than 1% (sound like NY?) and real estate is finally taking off. It's not NY, but that's part of philly's charm. Most people there wouldn't want to be JUST as busy as NY.
And back to transit, the loss of 24 hour service on the EL was a sad moment for me. I grew up on the El since I lived near Bridge & Pratt. In High School I knew the exact schedule to the minute and depended on it since I couldn't afford a car. The fact is, Septa couldn't justify 24 hr service with the ridership levels they had. But they still have better service than most cities - 7 day/week rail service.
Fellow SubTalkers,
I've been told by more than a few SEPTA people that, although lack of ridership was somewhat of a concern, the primary reason that the El and the Broad Street Subway were closed at night (with "Nite Owl" service provided via bus) was a concern about crime. Apparently, it's "pretty difficult to police the stations and trains" and people "feel safer waiting on the street" (someone else's words). The single biggest "plus", according to a lady friend of mine who works late at Allegheny (nee Hahnemann) Hospital is that the transfer at City Hall is now a simple "walk to the next bus" affair, whereas it used to involve walking through the labyrinth of City Hall/15th Street Station. She says she doesn't mind the few extra minutes the bus takes at night, since there's hardly any traffic.
Will, it's confusing (I know!) but Allegheny (nee Hahnemann) was a couple of names ago. When Allgheny went belly up, Tenet took over and started calling it Allegheny-Hahnemann. To simply that handle, it's back to Hahnemann now (and Tenet shares it with Drexel University!).
You are correct - when the owl service ended on the subway and el in '92, the concern was more crime-related than a transit issue. There was also the complaint of the TWU about cashiers left alone at some stations (for many years, the less busy stations became pay-on-the-
train after 12 Midnight, which led to problems at stations with no cashier to "watch" over things). SEPTA folks also took the hint from Toronto, where several of SEPTA's then managers had served TTC, and decided that the crime problem, coupled with the opportunity to have 4-5 hours of non-operation each night for maintenance, etc, made the sale for bus service in the owl.
A contributing aspect was the proliferation of homeless folks especially in the Center City concourse system. You may notice that the concourse closes at night (different entrances close at different times). The net result is that the subway system is cleaner and a lot less reeking of "eau de pee". Another non-transit reason.
Interestingly, the subway-surface cars which provide owl operation, 10, 13 and 36, operate in the tunnel during the owl period except for the regular Monday shutdown when they go to 40th & Market. Free transfer is provided to the El owl buses at 15th and 30th and the Subway owl buses at 15th. Juniper St station is closed during the owl period - cars still pass thru and catch up time but patrons are discharged at 15th inbound and the first outbound stop is at City Hall /15th.
The owl buses have a timed transfer at 15th/Market/Kennedy which was SEPTA's concession to the safety and convenience of passengers who must transfer. While I have never observed this in person (not being a night owl myself any more!) I've heard it works well.
As Francis noted, parts of Phila are 24-hour operations. Most of these cater to auto users. SEPTA cut most owl operations in 1975. partly as a response to budget problems but equally to reflect the downturn in overnight ridership. Unfortunately, even weekend ridership on many lines is a far cry from what it was 20-25 years ago. It could be argued that the lousy headways on many lines don't help, but this becomes a circular argument quickly. On the skeletal owl network that SEPTA has, rider volumes are very low, and I wouldn't be surprised to see owl service cut back even more in the future.
Actually, the overnight bus service is every 15 minutes, which is better than the old owl train service which was every half-hour, with the conductor having a bus-type coin deposit machine next to him in the one-car (some cars were double-ended) train. So it is hard to complain about it.
One question... Does the Owl Market St. replacement bus allow people on or off at 19 and 22 Streets? It should because express service in the middle of the night is meaningless and why make people walk all the way to 15 or 30 St. at 3AM?
Actually, if you believe certain bus stop signs on Market St, the owl buses make the same stops as the surface routes. I've also been told that this is the case on Market St in West Phila and on Kensington Ave in Kensington (both beneath the El). It makes sense, especially with the dearth of other owl services, that patrons should be served at the nearest stop and not necessarily the nearest el or subway stop.
What I can't figure is why the subway-surface cars still run in the subway all night. Are the sub-surface stops safer (remember, one of the reasons for the owl buses was to get people off so-called dangerous lonely subway and el platforms during periods when cashiers often were not on duty and headways were wide). In my experience, some of the sub-surface stations can be scary places even during the day (and there is no cashier or other human presence at most of them). 22nd eastbound has a particular problem at school dismissal times, sufficiently bad to warrant on-foot police presence both in the station and on the surface.
I have heard that there was some thought given to operating the owl services on the sub-surface lines which provide all-night runs completely with buses but nothing ever came of it. If buses can replace rapid transit in off-hours, they certainly could fill in for trolleys.
The subway-surface routes run all night? Gosh, I should have know that, being that I live in Philly, but I guess I never thought about it.
How on eath does that work at 15th and 13th Streets, where fare control is shared with the MFL? Esp. 13th, where you have to walk along the MFL platform to reach the subway-surface platform?
10, 13 and 36 operate all-night service (with 36 going only as far as Island/Elmwood). They don't run in the subway on Monday nights and this allows routine maintenance, etc (once upon a time, this was Thursday nights for some reason). They make the last inbound stop at 15th eastbound and pick up again at 15th westbound, running through Juniper which is closed. At 15th eastbound, there is no way to enter except from the El cashiers (and those on the east side of the mezzanine are normally only open in the PM peak). I don't know how they prevent passengers from descending down to the El platform once they've come up from the subway-surface side. At 15th westbound, I've been told that the cashier booth is closed and fares are paid on the car (I've also heard that 30th works the same way).
Juniper is closed and cars run through. Stopping to recover schedule time (as needed) is done at 15th westbound.
There is an article in today's Daily
News about a scam in which an expended MetroCard is
folded across the magnetic strip which causes it to work
again. Anyone ever see this happen? Swiping a Subway Ride
[There is an article in today's Daily News about a scam in which an expended MetroCard is folded across the magnetic strip which causes it to work again. Anyone ever see this happen?]
Some hackers first discovered this trick over a year ago. Supposedly, the turnstiles were reconfigured to reject folded cards, but it looks like that didn't work.
TOKEN SUCKING -- YECCH
TOKEN SUCKING -- YECCH I don't think beating a fare is worth the chance of getting HEPATITIS B or WORSE
Did you read the article in detail? The cops sprayed mace into the slots to prevent that. Is anyone convinced that the MTA's Inspector General needs to find another job and how many out there are angry to the loss of $800 Million dollars? Stay tuned, the Hall of Shame will return after these messages.
Yeah, but what about BEFORE they started using Mace. Thank GOD for the N.Y.P.D. !!!
Can you get a card reader/writer and re-code the Metro Cards? You wouldn't think it would be that hard.
someone would need to steal the encoder and the computer which would have to be connected to the central computer in order to do that.
When the booth computers communication to the area control goes down cards cannot be read or encoded someone with that as an intent would need plenty of inside support to do a scam like that. Its not as easy as stealing the card encoder from a booth along with its terminal..
I just thought the cards had a "value" coded on them that the machine read and subtracted from. When you swipe them is a check made with a central mainframe where all the math is done? This would make sence with the amount of time the card passes through the machine, but how is the check preforned on a bus that is "disconnected" from network and wouldn't the sheer volume of riders crash the system? I think some transit lines (like PATCO) encode "vaule" on the ticket that can be read and altered by anyone who has hardware. Furthermore, what prevents people "cloneing" somebody else's Metro Card.
The system stores the data from each transaction, which is then sent to the central computer. The computer will keep a log and put a card with discrepancies on the "block list" which is downloaded by all the turnstiles and fareboxes to prevent reuse of the bad cards.
So the Turnstyles/Fareboxes do read/write to the Metro Cards, but at the end of the day all the transaction logs are sent to a mainframe for processing and if a 15$ card has been used and then shows up as 15$ again it will be blocked. But they checks are not instant so you could scam the system for a time. Did I get it right? Is there really a computer in each FB and TS? How is the info sent to the mainframe?
The busses must be connected at the depot.
The stations are wired by fiber optics.
There's a PC in every bus depot & subway station. They're actually "dumb terminals" as all the thinking/processing goes on at the several mainframes ... yes there's more then one. That's why when the system goes down the Station Agent can't create/update MCs. At the bus depot we can continue to collect info., i.e. probe a bus if the system goes down. The system is "scheduled" down from 11 PM to 3 AM, but I think they leave to subway terminals "up".
The list of bad/stolen/miss-used cards is called a "Negitive List", it was orig. called a "Black List" but that was politically incorrect so it was changed. The orig. program was written in Tenn.
Mr t__:^)
Several years ago ,a tv repairman near me (upper east side) was arrested for cloning single fare Metrocards.The method involved using 2 VCRs one to play the mag track on the other to record (duplicate)it.
When I first got a M.C. in nov `95 I examined the mag track with a product used in audio recording called Magna-see,you paint it on a recorded area and when dry it shows the magnetic pattern`s orientation. Since the M.C. mag track is approx 1/2in.high a VCR sync or audio track probably would work. Due to the fact that cards are cancelled by serial # and cannot be re-used this method of duplication would only work for single use cards so the card has to be re-written for each ride. Alot of work just to save 1.50.
BTW The repairman was only caught because he began selling cloned cards-prety stupid!
Please know that some of the folks at the TA just monitor MC useage & look for abnormal patterens ... they carry guns too.
Mr t__:^)
Reminds me of the old line the Government used to give about monitoring all international phone conversations with some mysterious "super computer".They claimed to be able to detect the presence of such words as assination and president if used in a conversation.
This assertion was nonsense,speech recognition did not exist out side the labs of IBM. Infact even today the most powerful machines can not monitor the thousands of international calls not to mention foreign langauges. Still it was good for a laugh as was your post!
Thanks, Rob.
//Reminds me of the old line the Government used to give about monitoring all international phone conversations //
You might want to check out:
http://www.aclu.org/echelonwatch/index.html
(really has very little to do with the aclu, but its a good jumping off point to other better pages)
An interesting document but this system as other speech recognition methods still relies on supposed patterens of speech.As pointed out in the summary such systems will not catch purposefully encrypted or cryptic speech or text.Assuming that one a terrorist is stupid enough to discuss his actions on an unsecure phone or internet line he can still defeat such systems by the simple use of cryptic speech eg.substitute "take out the trash" for "asassinate so and so"etc.
As yet there is still no substitute for human monitoring and interpretation in these cases,and given the pace of scrambling tecnology the gouvernmont will face a truly formidable task in fight organized crime and terrorism. My guess is that human intelligence and infiltration will still be paramount.
Articles in the print editions of today's Daily
News and today's Post indicate there is again
discussion of the possibility of a regional card that will
work on city and suburban systems. Maybe there is hope?
(Maybe there is hope)
Only if the MTA agrees to pay a fee to PATH and NJT for letting them use its system. It seems that regionalism always means NYC gets screwed. If NYC will not be screwed, it won't happen.
Isn't the city getting screwed enough as it is, subsidizing the ridiculous PATH 1$ fare?
Won't PATH and NJT have to replace all their current electronic fare equipment in order to accept Metrocards?
NJT has GFI & Cubic. NYC is Cubic. Both have boxes that take dip/swipe cards, so all that would be needed is for the MTA to auth. GFI getting the code to put MC stuff on their cards. The NYCDOT "privates" wanted to keep the GFI fareboxes & bill collecting, but the MTA wouldn't give GFI the code, the rest is history.
Mr t__:^)
[Only if the MTA agrees to pay a fee to PATH and NJT for letting them use its system. It seems that regionalism always means NYC gets screwed. If NYC will not be screwed, it won't happen.]
That does seem to be the way of things, doesn't it?
I hope NYC will hold firm before it agrees to something this time around.
[Only if the MTA agrees to pay a fee to PATH and NJT for letting them use its system. It seems that regionalism always means NYC gets screwed. If NYC will not be screwed, it won't happen.]
That does seem to be the way of things, doesn't it?
I hope NYC will hold firm before it agrees to something this time around.
It's not always an easy equation. Improvements that benefit suburban passengers benefit City businesses and the region, but they also make the City less competitive with the suburbs. It seems to me the only answer that truly benefits the region, rather than hurting it while robbing from one area to subsidize another, is strong cooperation on the basis of equity.
They mention PATH and NJT buses as being the targets for this MetroCard expansion. How about including the Westchester BEE-line buses?
Some of the Liberty Bee Line already have NYC fareboxes. Mr t__:^)
Looks like quite a doozy. Several fire engines were heading west on 14th Street about a half hour ago. I didn't take much notice at first, until another employee noted that there was a huge cloud of smoke billowing past our building - which is at Fifth Avenue and 14th Street, a long avenue block away from the L station! I naturally moseyed on over to investigate, and saw at least seven or eight engines on the scene, blocking 14th Street and a couple of lanes on Sixth (14th has since reopened). At least two hose lines were running down into the L station. F and PATH service were running normally along Sixth. As of a few minutes ago, there's still quite a bit of smoke coming out of the L station.
Interesting -- the TA's status hotline is reporting that as of 10:55 AM, L, N and R trains are bypassing the station at Union Square due to a smoke condition, but makes no mention of anything going on at 6th Avenue.
Perhaps smoke is emanating from a fire in the L tunnel between the 6th Avenue and Union Square stations -- is it unusually warm in your building today, Peter?
Chuck
[Interesting -- the TA's status hotline is reporting that as of 10:55 AM, L, N and R trains are bypassing the station at Union Square due to a smoke condition, but makes no mention of anything going on at 6th Avenue.
Perhaps smoke is emanating from a fire in the L tunnel between the 6th Avenue and Union Square stations -- is it unusually warm in your building today, Peter?]
It looks as if the fire is or was close to the Sixth Avenue end. There are a couple of emergency exits leading to the L tunnel right on the corner of Fifth Avenue, and no smoke ever came out of them and no emergency personnel have used them.
I was on an R train heading downtown towards 14th street. The conductor annouced that we would be bypassing 14th street. Then he annouced that he would be temporarily shutting off the A/C. As we passed through 14th street, the platform was dark (no lights on).
The last time I road the New Franklin Shuttle -- a little over a week ago -- I forgot to post that I noticed the old Dual Contracts BMT-style canopy ironworks was missing. I assume it was cut-up and melted down, sigh :-(
Am I the only one who is disappointed about the shuttle being rebuilt? While the new line is nice, the old line had a lot of history remaining, since this line wasn't really fixed up over the years. I remember the old connection at Franklin/Fulton, the old platform extensions at Botanic Gardens, the Dean St. stop, etc.
Progress is good, but not entirely, I guess.
Am I the only one who is disappointed about the shuttle being rebuilt?
Yes, a lot was lost, especially the classic turn-of-the-century L station at Franklin-Fulton. For all its nice touches, the new station is harsh where the old station was softened by trees and age.
But I fear the alternative was abandonment--the old structure had been allowed to deteriorate so far. And I give the TA high marks for some of the nice touches--the decorations in the stations, the tribute to classic BMT design in the new Park Place stationhouse.
BTW, the new Franklin-Fulton station appears designed for larger crowds than I would expect will usw the line under current circumstances.
I often thought that if the Franklin Shttle was ever to be abandoned, it should have been preserved in the awful state it was as a monument (and warning) to future generations about the perils of neglecting the infrastructure of this city. Ditto with the Manny B.
You may still get your wish about the Manny B.
The NYC Landmarks Commission could have designated the Franklin Avenue Shuttle ROW a landmark many years ago. Having been one of the borough's oldest surviving (and workable) railroad lines, I'm sure it would have qualified.
That is the kind of thing that could have been instigated by the ERA in conjunction with some local Central Brooklyn Political organization and the grass-roots community. That was a lost opportunity to show involvement by railfans in a current rapid transit issue.
Oh well, let me get down from the soapbox...
Doug aka BMTman
[ NYC Landmarks Commission ]
How about the Avenue H stationhouse? ...
Good point, Paul!
I might give the Brooklyn Historical Society a call to find out how to go about getting Landmark status for rapid transit lines and/or sturctures. This could produce some intriguing questions. For instance, would a group or organization have to get approval from the MTA/NYCT before approaching the NYC Landmarks Commission? Could prove to be a very educational exercise in legalities if nothing else.
I'll post any results I find here to www.rapidtransit.com
Doug aka BMTman
[But I fear the alternative was abandonment--the old structure had been allowed to deteriorate so far. And I give the TA high marks for some of the nice touches--the decorations in the stations, the tribute to classic BMT design in the new Park Place stationhouse.]
Another thing too - the fact that such a massive renovation job was completed in less time than forecast and (as I believe to be the case) within budget is a hopeful sign. It shows that infrastructure work *need not* be a disaster.
[...] such a massive renovation job was completed in less time than forecast [...]
I really think the TA has discovered that giving themselves very generous completion times is very good politics.
To paraphrase Mr. Micawber:
"Scheduled completion time: one year, one month. Actual completion time: one year. Result: praise."
"Scheduled completion time: 11 months. Actual completion time: one year. Result: demonstrations."
[[...] such a massive renovation job was completed in less time than forecast [...]
I really think the TA has discovered that giving themselves very generous completion times is very good politics.]
Even leaving the forecasts aside, it seems as if the job was completed in a fairly short amount of time (14 months?) considering the amount of work involved. Remember that we're talking about an entity that needs a year to repair an escalator. The TA really seems to have gotten its act together on the Franklin Shuttle renovation. Time will tell if they'll be able to do as well on other jobs.
Wow. If only the MTA had said that the Manhattan Bridge repair project would take 20 years to complete when the first service disruptions began in 1986, then the TA would look great if/when both sides open in 2002.
(Notice I included "if")
[BTW, the new Franklin-Fulton station appears designed for larger crowds than I would expect will usw the line
under current circumstances.]
Perhaps they're anticipating all the crowds that'll be there when the Manhattan Bridge is closed and a lot of people ride up the shuttle to take the A/C into Manhattan. By the way, when the Brooklyn Bridge had it's 100th anniversary in 1983, much was made about how it was built 9 times stronger than necessary because of concerns about graft. How about rebuilding the Fulton el and running a line over the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row/City Hall? You could even provide paper transfers to other lines, or run it into City Hall BMT lower level with some trains going up Broadway. Gotta be cheaper than building tunnels. Talk about an old solution to a new problem....
Last time I went through there, there APPEARED TO BE a chunk of some station's canopy, maybe Dean Street's, lying upside down in a scrap-yard alongside the Shuttle just about where the old Dean Street station used to be. It may still be there, if anyone wants to go and salvage it.
Wayne.
Wayne, the canopy IS GONE from the junk yard lot where it had been seen about a month ago.
Here's an update: I was so curious about the canopy that I visited that specific "junk yard" on my lunch hour today to investigate. I discovered that this former auto scrap yard was commendeered by the New Franklin Shuttle construction contractor. Turns out that the remaining pieces of Shuttle memoribilia is scant (a subway entrance marker made of corrugated aluminum w/"M" logo cube on top). The yard appears to be in the process of being cleared out by the contractor as their work on the line is basically finished. I did leave my name and number with the team should they find any other items on their lots (they have other work locations along the FS ROW).
Too bad none of us made a move on it earlier....:-(
Doug aka BMTman
Am I the only one who is disappointed about the shuttle being rebuilt? While the new line is nice, the old line had a lot of history remaining, since this line wasn't really fixed up over the years. I remember the old connection at Franklin/Fulton, the old platform extensions at Botanic Gardens, the Dean St. stop, etc.
Progress is good, but not entirely, I guess.
No, you're not the only one. I mentioned in a previous post that they should have restored the Franklin Shuttle to the way it was in the early 1900's instead of redoing it, wooden platforms and all (brand-new of course). I also mentioned that they should have done the same thing with the pre-Dual Contracts statons from Alabama Ave. through Crescent St. on the Jamaica line. Anything that's been around that long should be restored, not redone. Hey, I'm Mr. Nostalgia. If I had my way, I'd like it to be 1899 instead of 1999. I'd settle for 1938. I'd like to go back and ride all the els that were gone before I was born.
Hell, let's restore steam power to the els in Brooklyn....LOL
Hell, let's restore steam power to the els in Brooklyn
I'd love to see steam-powered el trains. If the City is so hell-bent on tearing down the els, let them replace the els with tracks at grade level, like the old Culver, West End, Brighton and Sea Beach used to be. Bring back the BU's and put a forney in the front!
Hey, I've grown fond of quiet, air conditioned trains. I'm as nostalgic as the next guy, but some things are best left to history.
OK you take the quiet air conditioned train. Me, I want to take a long trip one way on a BMT Standard and back on an R1. The ceiling fans did a good job of cooling.
OK you take the quiet air conditioned train. Me, I want to take a long trip one way on a BMT Standard and back on an R1. The ceiling fans did a good job of cooling.
I'm with you. Down with the stainless steel beer cans. Give me a BMT Standard! One way. However, I'll take a Triplex for the return trip. If you want cool, how about a convertible BU with the panels removed. Lower the roof and run that in the tunnel. That will be nice and cool!
12/10/99
BMT Lines,
Hell , if you want the ultimate in cooling , Salaam are you reading this? , a standard or D-type with an OPEN railfan window. But hold your ears when you see two yellow flags trackside , that whistle's a killer!
Bill Newkirk
Hey, I remember riding on an old R21/22 with the front railfan window open. What a rush!
If you happen to catch car 7773 with the R-21 storm door at the front of the train, you can still do it! What a rush indeed!
--Mark
If I remember correctly you got a sudden gust of air when you left a tunnel portal going outdoors.
Agreed about that whistle! On one of the cab rides I videoed, the whistle actually caused interference with the picture - you can "see" the sound waves when the whistle blows!
--Mark
Hell , if you want the ultimate in cooling , Salaam are you reading this? , a standard or D-type with an OPEN railfan window. But hold your ears when you see two yellow flags trackside , that whistle's a killer!
The Standards had a front window that opened also. So did all the R-Types with the circular front window; the R-15, 16 and 17, even though it was extremely rare that any were open. The rectangular window on the R-21/22 opened. I think the Multi's and Bluebirds had front windows that opened. If you happen to be a Polar Bear, you would want to open the front window in January.
To each his own, I guess.
To each his own, I guess.
Yup!
Just remember that people pay a premium to ride noisy non-air conditioned museum trains. the quiet air conditioned stuff is only $1.50.
>>>I'd love to see steam-powered el trains. If the City is so hell-bent on tearing down the els, let them
replace the els with tracks at grade level, like the old Culver, West End, Brighton and Sea Beach used
to be. Bring back the BU's and put a forney in the front! <<<
Who needs electricity and steam? Let's bring back Dobbin to the streets of NYC.
Revive the horsecars!
www.forgotten-ny.com
But BMT LINES, that was my point in any earlier post had groups like the Electric Railroader's Association, Local Franklin Shuttle area businesses, and Central Brooklyn Politicians all gotten together and sought for NYC Landmark status for the Line.
The only way to have rebuilt the Shuttle while legally keeping the original "look and feel" would have been through Landmark designation.
I will be trying to get info on doing this for other rapid transit lines and structures. I'm even wondering if this had ever been done before? (I'm sure some places in Europe have made their rail lines historic places -- I know some small towns across the U.S. have done so with ancient steam-train lines).
Doug aka BMTman
What I'd like to know is, if the IRT was so close to the Botanic Gardens station, why did it take them 90 years to knock down a wall and create a transfer?
www.forgotten-ny.com
What I'd like to know is, if the IRT was so close to the Botanic Gardens station, why did it take them 90 years to knock down a wall and create a transfer?
DUH!
What I'd like to know is, if the IRT was so close to the Botanic Gardens station, why did it take them 90 years to knock down a wall and create a transfer?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Probably for the same stupid teason it took almost as long to link the 6th Ave. station on the Canarsie Line with the 6th Ave. IND at 14th St. I don't know about 90 years, but in 1940 when the City took over the BMT and IRT, they should have thought about every possible place for a free transfer between divisions, and built them, or atleas provided paper transfers. Right now, there are 3 stations in close proximity - Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza and Queensbridge. No free transfer!
Kevin, you of all people should have realized that 90 years ago the BMT (then BRT) and the IRT were competitors -- so there was no incentive to create a link between the two.
I recall those days quite well. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Well...OK, they should have knocked down the wall after unification in (1940, I think?)
I was amazed when I made the transfer and saw how it's a distance of only a few feet between the stations!
On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm riding the A,C, or E uptown and want to get back to Flushing, and have missed my LIRR connection at Penn it's absolutely *essential* to change to the B,D, F at 4th Street for an easy transfer to the #7.
I could walk back to Flushing and it seems like it's only a bit longer walk than making a connection from the A/C/E at 42nd St for the #7!
www.forgotten-ny.com
You think that the connection at 42/6 to 5 is closer?
>>>You think that the connection at 42/6 to 5 is closer? >>>
It's definitely much closer. You do have to walk down a corridor but it's not as long as the one between 7th and 8th Avenues for the A/C/E--7 connection.
The OLD Botanic Garden station was further south than the current one is. The new station has the connection at the north end of the station, there was formerly only tunnel (sort of) there. It looks like they had to knock down more than just a wall to create it. The passageway looks new and it's only on the northbound side.
Wayne
But BMT LINES, that was my point in any earlier post had groups like the Electric Railroader's Association, Local Franklin Shuttle area businesses, and Central Brooklyn Politicians all gotten together and sought for NYC Landmark status for the Line.
The only way to have rebuilt the Shuttle while legally keeping the original "look and feel" would have been through Landmark designation.
I will be trying to get info on doing this for other rapid transit lines and structures. I'm even wondering if this had ever been done before? (I'm sure some places in Europe have made their rail lines historic places -- I know some small towns across the U.S. have done so with ancient steam-train lines).
Doug aka BMTman
I totally agree with you. The ERA, the NRHS, and other organizations like them, and all the railfans should have worked feverishly to have the Franklin Shuttle and the 5 stations along the Jamaica Line designted as landmarks. As for people in the community and the politicians, I don't know. I think that the latter 2 groups were the ones pushing for what we see now. Its a damn shame! It seems like every generation gets its turn at seeing another would-be and could-be landmark destroyed. I'm 45. In my lifetime, I've seen Old Myrt, the Third Ave El (Bronx), Culver Shuttle, Jamaica El, and now the old Franklin Shuttle become just a memory. The generation before me saw all the Manhattan Els, the Fulton St. El, Fifth Ave El and the Lexington Ave. El bite the dust. I was 4 when the Polo Grounds Shuttle went, but I didn't know about it until the early '70s. What's left to designate as a landmark? Everything old has been renovated or demolished. Sutter Ave., Livonia Ave., New Lots and E 105th St. on the canarsie line as they once were, are a memory. Same thing with Alabama Ave. through Crescent St. on the J. All the old 1904 elevated stations on the IRT have been redone a long time ago. The wind screens make me want to vomit! When I was a kid in the early '60s, I remember wooden platforms and wooden windscreens with glass windows on the platforms--even on Dual Contracts stations. Where there wasn't windscreen, there was railing. The B'way IRT line and the WP Rd. line in the Bronx (lower portion) had nice ornate railing on the station platforms until the '70s. All the old station signs from every station are gone, also. I'm surprised that the TA didn't rip all the tile mosaic station signs off the walls and replace them with that contemporary crap! In a way they did do that on the B'way BMT and 4th Ave. BMT. As for rolling stock, you know you're getting old when the cars that you remember going into service brand spanking new are now the oldest, and ready to be scrapped. I first said that when the R-27's were done for. Now its the Redbirds. You will know that you are ancient, when you see 75' cars on the scrap track. To me, the wierdest site was seeing R-Type SMEE cars in yellow work livery for the first time!
Hey, a slant R-40 in work service! That's frightening! When they first came out, I said "WOW! Look at the Space Age cars!" Now, some people that post here refer to them as the "Old Slants" or "Old Slant R-40's.
Yeah, I'm right behind you at 40! (You're in good company)
I think one of the reasons that no one has designated an NYC subway station or line for Landmark status before is that the MTA would obviously have to be involved. And we all know too well what that means: the project would get delayed and put aside since the Executive branch would snicker behind their backs that some "special interest rail-nuts" would have the balls to try and tell them how to "run their railroad." And of course having a particular line restored -- not rebuilt -- to it's original specs could mean potential cost overruns since certain ironwork or concrete abutements may have to be costume-made instead of "off the shelf" to match the original specs.
Doug aka BMTman
PS: did I ever tell you that I think your logo is cool?
Yeah, I'm right behind you at 40! (You're in good company)
I think one of the reasons that no one has designated an NYC subway station or line for Landmark status before is that the MTA would obviously have to be involved. And we all know too well what that means: the project would get delayed and put aside since the Executive branch would snicker behind their backs that some "special interest rail-nuts" would have the balls to try and tell them how to "run their railroad." And of course having a particular line restored -- not rebuilt -- to it's original specs could mean potential cost overruns since certain ironwork or concrete abutements may have to be costume-made instead of "off the shelf" to match the original specs.
Doug aka BMTman
PS: did I ever tell you that I think your logo is cool?
As for my logo being cool, thanks. I made the BMT logo from scratch using Adobe Photoshop, and animated it with an A/B photo using Adobe ImageReady. As for the MTA putting a monkey wrench in the works of designating stations landmarks, I don't think that could happen. If the Federal Government designates something as a landmark, the owner of the property is obliged to restore it and keep it up. Aren't they? The City of Philadelphia can't let Independence Hall deteriorate. Also, there are private citizens living in houses along alleys in Philadelphia that date back to Colonial times. These people are obliged to keep their houses as they were in the 1600's and 1700's. They can't just decide that they're going to renovate their properties. But, like I said, what is left to designate. There isn't any untouched or unmodified stations that can be restored anymore, unless they rip out all the modern junk and literally restore them. They would need detailed photographs and original IRT/BRT blueprints to restore a station today to what it used to be.
I don't you think you need necessarily restore something to its original state when it's designated as a landmark, but you probably have to select a point in time.
Even on the Franklin Shuttle, the only part that's really original is the right-of-way south of Park Place, which is quite recognizable from steam days (which the recently rebuilt portion postdates).
While I would like Avenue H restored to its c.1905 appearance, it would be a good start to honor its familiar status by assuring it will stay as it is now, and not get "improved."
Later we can restore the forest, the 2-track surface line, and the steam passenger service ;-)
12/10/99
Landmark status? Wasn't the famed "LOOP" in Chicago designated a landmark?
That EL can't be replaced by a subway. Isn't there one station , wooden platforms and all , restored to it's original appearance?
Bill Newkirk
Landmark status? Wasn't the famed "LOOP" in Chicago designated a landmark?
That EL can't be replaced by a subway. Isn't there one station , wooden platforms and all , restored to it's original appearance?
Yes, I do believe that the Chicago El is a landmark. As for wooden platforms, aren't all the Chicago El platforms still wood? I know that the stations have been modernized, but I think all the platforms are still wood.
If I have the chance, I'll report on that next week - I'll be in Chicago Tuesday and Wednesday, with any luck I'll have time for a quick ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of landmark statuses, I read in a newspaper advertisement recently that the NYC Transit is looking for a contractor to rebuild the West Farms Line (IRT) Stations from Jackson to East Tremont Avs. The stations have National Historic Register Status and the contractor must rebuild the stations in question to an "original look" of the time period in question.
-Stef
Didn't they just rehab these stations?
They would look nicer with those windscreens removed, like Jackson Ave.
Not really. The windscreens were removed from Jackson Av over 10 Years Ago. They did replace the lightning recently, but that's it. The Canopies are worn and need to be replaced. The stairwells leading up to the stations will need replacement (Jackson already had it's steps replaced). It would be nice to if a new booth was erected on the uptown side of Jackson Av, which hasn't had a booth in many, many years. Even the el structure looks lousy! It's time for a paint job, don't you think?
Also, keep in mind that while this rehab is going on, the entire signal system on the White Plains and Dyre Av lines is getting replaced from 149th St and the Concourse to 241 St and Dyre Av, including the E180th and 239th St Yards.
-Stef
I'm STILL pissed that they removed those vintage-looking lights (with the globes) from Jackson Avenue and replaced them with those hideous goosenecks with the pail-shaped helmet shades. The one unique thing about the station and what do they do - they remove it.
Wayne
So much for modernizing the station. Modernization comes with a heavy price, don't you think? I suppose the Franklin Shuttle is a perfect example.
-Stef
So much for modernizing the station. Modernization comes with a heavy price, don't you think? I suppose the Franklin Shuttle is a perfect example.
-Stef
You said a mouthful!
Speaking of landmark statuses, I read in a newspaper advertisement recently that the NYC Transit is looking for a contractor to rebuild the West Farms Line (IRT) Stations from Jackson to East Tremont Avs. The stations have National Historic Register Status and the contractor must rebuild the stations in question to an "original look" of the time period in question.
-Stef
If this is a solid fact, it's the best news that I've heard in a good long time!
Now that there are no leaves on the trees blocking the view it is very easy to see the abandoned trestle alongside the N/B Meadowbrook just south of Stewart Av, a relic from the old Central Branch.
Kevin Walsh, you reading this????
Check out this site for some pictures of the trestle, along with other information on the Central RR of LI
http://www.hempsteadplains.com/trestle.htm
Thanks Bob, I read it a while ago and it was great and very informational. I think I actually found it from a link on your site and put a link to it on my train buff page.
It staggers the imagination to think they reopened the Central Branch to bring building materials to build Levittown and then when it was built they abandoned it. With East Meadow, Levittown, Roosevelt Field and the Source Malls, Nassau County Medical Center, Nassau County Jail, Bethpage, etc,etc,etc... the Central Branch would probably be the most used branch on the LIRR. Look how crowded the N48, N49, N70,N71 and N72's are.
The NIMBYs of Garden City are ALREADY fighting just the thought of any use of the Central branch !
Mr t__:^)
Alexander T. Stewart, the founder of Garden City and the builder of the Central RR of LI, must be turning over in his grave. If it wasn't for the Central RR, Garden City wouldn't even exist.
The NIMBYs do have one valid point, however. Even if we're just talking about using a portion of the old Central ROW for service to the Nassau Hub area and not reactivating the line all the way to Bethpage, the extra train (or perhaps light rail) traffic would probably disrupt the road traffic in the area to an intolerable level, since the line is at grade from just west of Stewart Manor and crosses many major streets.
Anyone care to offer a solution?
Actually there are 2 active stations in Garden City, the Garden City Station and Country Life Press. I think the only other one that was in G.C. was Clinton Road (how they knew he'd become President back then is beyond me), site of a G.C. Firehouse.
Note: I'm not sure if the Mitchell Field or Salisbury Plain stations were in Garden City or not. I think Salisbury Plains was in East Meadow even though it wasn't called that then.
Stewart Manor and Nassau Blvd. stations are also in Garden City; Merillon Ave. station forms part of the border between Garden City and Garden City Park; New Hyde Park is a stone's throw from the NE corner of GC; Mineola is also only about a block away from GC's northern border.
That's 7 stations in total serving one (very affluent) community, yet the Village of Garden City has not provided a single parking space on village property at any of these stations for non-village residents!
There must be something ornery about Garden City residents. Lately they've prevented Lord & Taylor from building a store at the Roosevelt Field Mall, claiming that they're protecting an existing L&T store in Garden City. Trouble is, L&T has announced that the Garden City store is going to be closed on account of low sales, whether or not the Roosevelt Field store is built!
[There must be something ornery about Garden City residents.]
My cousin lives there, and is very pasionate about these issues, otherwise he's a very nice fellow.
Mr t__:^)
Why should they? It would be nice if the parking spaces were there, but I can understand not wanting to spend tax dollars for something that will not benefit your community and, indeed, might end up costing more. Now if the MTA/LIRR were to build and maintain the parking lot (including owning the land) that would be a different situation.
Many of the municipalities on the NJ Coast Line also own parking lots where only their own residents are permitted. But NJT also owns and operates some at other locations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
12/09/99
If you've seen this trestle don't let the sight of it fool you. It looks like a trestle sitting on the ground. Not so , there used to be a road underneath it. The roadway was filled in years ago. I saw a Newsday picture before the back filling job.
Bill Newkirk
Are you sure? I think it was a creek or a brook. I don't ever recall a road there. Also there is a mostly dried up creek/brook (I don't know the difference) along the E/S of the Meadowbrook from Merrick all the way to N/O Front Street near Hempstead Tnpk.
That's the Meadow Brook right next to the parkway. It isn't dried up as much as the stream is mostly below ground level, so it can't be seen unless there was a really heavy rain storm.
12/10/99
Jeff,
I gotta hunt down that Newsday article. If I find it,I'll snail mail it to you. Have no scanner for E-mail yet.
Bill Newkirk
>>>Now that there are no leaves on the trees blocking the view it is very easy to see the abandoned
trestle alongside the N/B Meadowbrook just south of Stewart Av, a relic from the old Central
Branch.
Kevin Walsh, you reading this???? <<<
I am lurking as always.
But...until I expand my site to include Forgotten Long Island, I can't include it. I am starting to use up my already generous 100MB allocation as it is!
why is it like r44-rockway or some others etc.....
HATE THE RAILFAN WINDOW AND ARE GLAD TO SEE IT GO AWAY???
WHAT?????????????????????????????????????............................
ok if you dont like the railfan window sit in the back or middle of the train or WORSHIP THE BART MARTA CHICAGO G F J M Z S 1 6 9 LINES
LONDON UNDERGROUND MIAMI LOS ANGELES METRO systems and others!!!
dummy up get stupid etc ride the back of the train and in the middle
start a ANTI RAILFAN CLUB IN YOUR HONOR!!!!!!
but at least leave those of us alone who do appreciate the untimate
*************>>THE RAILFAN WINDOW<<******************!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you love those slant 40s and older subway cars !!!!!
I don't think you'll find many people on this board who hate railfan windows. What we hate is seeing the same message (or similar ones) 50 or 100 times!
We know you like railfan windows, but saying 100 times that you like them isn't going to make them stay. Nothing is going to make them stay. It's unfortunate, but true. Full-width cabs are designed for greater productivity than 1/3-width cabs, and full-width cabs are not compatible with railfan windows. You're just going to have to enjoy the railfan windows we have left when you come to the city, and eventually learn to live without them.
When you say something once, we listen. We may even agree with you. When you say something twice, we figure maybe you pressed the "post" button twice by mistake. But when you say the same thing over and over again, you look like a crackpot - even if you aren't - and people tune you out.
David
sory but i recieved a e mail from some unidentified r44rockwayEmail
with pictures of the new r 142 or 100+ plus new car
{ of cource no railfan winmdows ) couldnt figure why he hated the
front railfan window and why ??? !!! thank you sorry if i seemed to
wear this subject out would like to shoot vidieos of the last
surviving railfan window equipped cars while they last THANK YOU FOR
NYC CITY SUBWAY RESOURCES !!! the best site on the internet !!!!!
The new CTA full width cabs have clear glass on the left side so you can see out from inside the car The entire cab does not need to be dark just the area behind the controls. I know operators are shy and all but they are mostly nice people as are the people that ride behind the line.
It's a shared ride. Enjoy the experience.
the problem i had is that the blue line leaving the clinton station
for example is that the area is blocked off and or the operator will
not allow you to look out the front window!! maybe i should have asked if i cound mount my vidieo camera on the fornt window press
record and wait until the end of the line 4hour lp mode 8mm ...!!
thank you !!!
Take the LIRR's M1 or M3 Salaam, and if the engineer doesn't have the cab door open you get a great railfan window. The Main Line gets up good speed with great views of RR crossings, Belmont Park, the interlocking at both Mineola (for the Oyster Bay Line) and the great Divide in Hicksville. The stormdoor window is even toddler friendly as it is almost as low (I did say almost) as the R40's. My 3yr old can see well on his tippy toes-I MUST carry him on the Worlds Fair trains on the "7" line.
There's been plenty of discussion about service to the airports here lately, and it seems like there are plenty of misconceptions about mass transit service and airports.
Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines. It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.
In those cities which have good rapid transit to the airport (Chicago and Atlanta come immediately to mind), that's who you'll find on the train. Neither of these groups minds transfering (although in the case of the business traveler, they don't mind as long as the overall trip is about as fast as taking a cab.) Taking these two groups of people alone off the roads will do wonders for traffic.
Vacation travelers are always going to be better served by taxi's or van services. Unless there's a one-seat ride stopping on your front steps, the savings ($6 for a family of 4 on the subway versus $25 for a cab) doesn't justify the frustration of lugging luggage up and down stairs and to and from your local station.
Another thing that people really need to understand when advocating mass transit to an airport is that there are completely different mass transit needs within the airport than there are going to and from the airport. Within the airport, high frequency/low capacity service is needed going between terminals. To and from the airport, relatively less frequent but higher capacity service is needed.
Atlanta is an excellent working example of this -- with MARTA service every 10 minutes or so, but the intra-airport shuttle trains operating about every 90 seconds. Newark will be this way once the monorail is extended to the new NJT station, and JFK will be this way with two connections to the higher capacity services -- one at Howard Beach and one at Jamaica.
Those who advocate reactivation of the Rockaway Branch ROW for "express" service from Penn Station or GCT don't have a viable explanation for where the passengers are going to come from. Sure, it would be neat from a railfan's perspective, but the people who work at the airport don't live in Penn Station or GCT. The worst thing a railfan can do is advocate a service which won't get passengers. If you do that once, you shoot the next three projects down -- no matter how important they are.
The biggest shortcoming is of the Jamaica-JFK monorail is that it won't have stations along the Van Wyck through Queens. Blame that on the bureaucrats and NIMBY politicians.
LGA is unique among major US airports in that the high frequency service between terminals really isn't necessary. Very few passengers transfer between terminals at LaGuardia and given the current space limitations there, that isn't going to change until they drain Flushing Bay. At LGA, you could probably get away with a subway line stopping at the Marine Air terminal, the Central terminal and then between the Delta/Northwest terminal and the USAirways terminal.
You can run the N train to LGA from midtown in about 35 minutes -- no express needed. If the TA can run service every 6 minutes during the day they'll pick up a huge chunk of the business travel segment.
Charles G,
Thank you very much for sharing your opinion with the rail fans. It appears you have done your homework on this manner and should be applauded.
N Broadway Line
Well said, as to LaGuardia. Rail service there is more likely to be successful than rail service to JFK.
At JFK, I believe they hope they'll pick up some commuters transferring from the LIRR or subway. One thing to consider about JFK, relative to other U.S. airports, is the lack of roads. All you've got from most of the metro area is the Van Wyck, whose lower portion is ALWAYS jammed. You may get people taking a cab to the light rail at Jamaica and taking the train to the airport, to avoid the Van Wyck.
12/10/99
For those of you who read my earlier post on Airtrain , the point I made was that the rail to airpoint concept wasn't well thought of. Everyone here just about agrees to reuse the LIRR Rockaway Div , but the P.A. and NIMBY's won't have it.
And further more , they said that if AIRTRAIN takes off (no pun intended) service to midtown Manhattan would eventually happen. Well , didn't the city say with the razing of the Second Ave EL that the Second Avenue subway would also happen ?
Bill Newkirk
[Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines.
It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.]
While I also thank you for your thoughtful comments, I afraid I can't agree with this portion of you comments.
BTW, I was a WORKER at the airport for 15 years.
1. Workers aren't going to be using the long term parking lot, which is the first piece of the project.
2. The Jamaica extention, in my mind, isn't intended for "workers". I think you'll find most of the workers live within 30 minutes of JFK and come from all surrounding areas. Some "suits" may find a LIRR/JFK Express train combination convient, but other then those the business needs to come from travelers.
The old Rockwaway branch WOULD have been the quickest way to get from JFK to La Guardia or Manhattan, but it's not going to be. The best we can hope for is the MTA buying it after it's built. Then you could have a express from Manhattan with a stop at Jamaica for LI travelers & employees. Maybe the N will be extended, but this too isn't as good as using the NY-CT (Hell Gate line) or some other way to link La Gardia & JFK more directly.
Mr t__:^)
[The old Rockwaway branch WOULD have been the quickest way to get from JFK to La Guardia or Manhattan, but it's not going to be. The best we can hope for is the MTA buying it after it's built. Then you could have a express from Manhattan with a stop at Jamaica for LI travelers & employees. Maybe the N will be extended, but this too isn't as good as using the NY-CT (Hell Gate line) or some other way to link La Gardia & JFK more directly.]
Or both, since the added construction could accomodate both airport and subway trains, and the number of travellers would justify both services during the day.
I don't think anyone here disagrees with you, unfortunately the re-use of the old Rockaway & Ridgewood (Ct-NY) branches for passenger service is more unlikely then the 2nd Ave StuBway comming to life.
Mr t__:^)
The Jamaica JFK connector could be the biggest white elephant in the
history of public transportation. Right now the JFK Flyer which runs
from I think Hempstead to JFK might get the award. Whenever I see the
bus run it is almost always empty!!!
[The Jamaica JFK connector could be the biggest white elephant in the
history of public transportation.]
At last, something sensible! $1.5 billion and no one will take it. What a boondoggle!
Why don't they listen to the people who would actually ride the thing, e.g., New Yorkers? Everyone agrees it's a joke. The Train to the Plane was a joke, and this is a sixteen minute faster, $1.5 billion joke.
[The Train to the Plane was a joke, and this is a sixteen minute faster, $1.5 billion joke.]
Well, I wouldn't say it exactly that way. That train was fairly well used, just not by JFK passengers. A lot Manhattan workers from Howard Beach took it ... it was like a LIRR train ride, so many folks found value in the extra cost.
I think if the TA kept it going after the PORT stoped subsidizing it might have started a trend in the subways.
e.g. my mother-in-law needed to switch from the LIRR at Jamaica to a subway because of a LIRR delay ... she said the ride was much longer then the LIRR, so she almost missed her Broadway play. My point is that it would seem that the TA could do a much better job of making Express trains faster (less stops, more speed). This will get more folks out of their cars ... isn't that in all our best interest ?
Relagate the Hippos to local service only & buy more Slants !!!!
Mr t__:^)
[My point is that it would seem that the TA could do a much better job of making Express trains faster (less stops, more speed). This will get more folks out of their cars ... isn't that in all our best interest ?]
I can't argue with that. The subways have really slowed down to a crawl at a time when they should have been sped up.
Ideally, I'd like to see zoned superexpresses to the major business districts with express bypasses, but that's a major investment, and the MTA can't even seem to run the existing system at full speed.
[There's been plenty of discussion about service to the airports here lately, and it seems like there are plenty of misconceptions about mass transit service and airports.
Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines. It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.]
66,000 passengers use LGA every day, and 25,000 employees. Passengers outnumber employees; both groups should be served.
[In those cities which have good rapid transit to the airport (Chicago and Atlanta come immediately to mind), that's who you'll find on the train. Neither of these groups minds transfering (although in the case of the business traveler, they don't mind as long as the overall trip is about as fast as taking a cab.) Taking these two groups of people alone off the roads will do wonders for traffic.
Vacation travelers are always going to be better served by taxi's or van services. Unless there's a one-seat ride stopping on your front steps, the savings ($6 for a family of 4 on the subway versus $25 for a cab) doesn't justify the frustration of lugging luggage up and down stairs and to and from your local station.]
Yes and no. New York isn't Chicago and Atlanta. The long ride to JFK and the other regional airports is listed by area businesses as one of the main reasons they leave the region. That's why a subway extension, which, as in other cities, would serve the groups you mention, is grossly inadequate for New York. Those people can and will hop on the A train and transfer to Airtrain to get to the terminal; at LaGuardia they'll take the train or bus, or drive if that's more convenient.
Tourists entering and leaving the City can and will take cabs or the cheaper group ride services; only a relatively few backpacker types will want to save $10 to get on a jampacked train and negotiate the steps with their bags.
But to serve New York's business community, we need quick, one stop access from the regional business centers. *Not* just subway access, because even if it's just a suit carrier most businessmen will not trek up and down the stairs and change lines fifty times to get to the plane.
Complete one stop access from *cab accessible stations* in the City's business districts will be as convenient as a cab ride, more economical, and much, much faster. It will benefit everybody. And it won't interfere with cheaper subway access for those airport workers who want to save $5 and take the subway to work.
This is not just theory. The Port Authority ran a premium "Train to the Plane" subway/bus service in the subway for several years, and *nobody took it.* The new Airtrain system will cut 16 minutes off the terminal circuit time because it subsitutes a train for the bus. That's trivial. *No one will take it.*
[Another thing that people really need to understand when advocating mass transit to an airport is that there are completely different mass transit needs within the airport than there are going to and from the airport. Within the airport, high frequency/low capacity service is needed going between terminals. To and from the airport, relatively less frequent but higher capacity service is needed.
Atlanta is an excellent working example of this -- with MARTA service every 10 minutes or so, but the intra-airport shuttle trains operating about every 90 seconds. Newark will be this way once the monorail is extended to the new NJT station, and JFK will be this way with two connections to the higher capacity services -- one at Howard Beach and one at Jamaica.
Those who advocate reactivation of the Rockaway Branch ROW for "express" service from Penn Station or GCT don't have a viable explanation for where the passengers are going to come from. Sure, it would be neat from a railfan's perspective, but the people who work at the airport don't live in Penn Station or GCT. The worst thing a railfan can do is advocate a service which won't get passengers. If you do that once, you shoot the next three projects down -- no matter how important they are.]
But that's exactly the opposite of the actual situation. The passengers will become from the business districts and the subways, which interface nicely with Penn Station and GCT. And that's the whole reason we're building airport access--because of the business districts.
*New York is not Atlanta.* Passenger traffic is much higher, justifying low headway service during daytime hours, and traffic in the business districts is a disaster.
[The biggest shortcoming is of the Jamaica-JFK monorail is that it won't have stations along the Van Wyck through Queens. Blame that on the bureaucrats and NIMBY politicians.]
Why slow the thing down for a handful of passengers?
[LGA is unique among major US airports in that the high frequency service between terminals really isn't necessary. Very few passengers transfer between terminals at LaGuardia and given the current space limitations there, that isn't going to change until they drain Flushing Bay. At LGA, you could probably get away with a subway line stopping at the Marine Air terminal, the Central terminal and then between the Delta/Northwest terminal and the USAirways terminal.
You can run the N train to LGA from midtown in about 35 minutes -- no express needed. If the TA can run service every 6 minutes during the day they'll pick up a huge chunk of the business travel segment.]
That's a travel time of 41 minutes, to which you have to add the time it takes to get to the subway station, if there's one nearby--hardly a certainty, since the BMT is not within walking distance of most of the areas businesses. An it would take the train even longer to get downtown.
A cab from the office is at least as fast, probably faster. People will take the cab.
Wow, Josh -- I normally agree with probably 90% of your posts, but on this issue our opinions couldn't be more different.
One thing that stands out to me in all of the discussions on this topic is the entirely different functions of LGA and JFK and that each requires it's own unique solution.
I'm glad you posted those numbers for LGA (66,000 passengers, 25,000 employees) though the number of employees sounds pretty high -- where do you find a source for stats like that?
I agree that air passengers should be a consideration in developing mass transit to the airport, but the employees have to come first. Those 25,000 employees (or whatever the number is) are going to the airport every day -- that makes them much more likely to choose mass transit. They are also more likely to locate their residences along the mass transit line. The passengers are different individuals each day and come from a much wider geographic spread. For these reasons (along with the lugging baggage issue as well as good ol' fashioned anti-transit snobbery) a much smaller percentage of air travelers are going to consider taking the train to the airport.
I realize that New York isn't Chicago or Atlanta, but JFK and O'Hare do share some major similarities along with some key differences. They are similar in that they are both one heck of a long way from the business district. O'Hare gets much more short hop business travel than JFK, though. (As of about 5 years ago, the only flights from JFK to Boston or Washington were on propeller planes). JFK functions for the most part as a vacation and long-term business travel airport. LGA and Newark handle most of NYC's domestic business travellers.
I can't believe that businesses are claiming that the long ride to JFK is a reason for leaving the city. Taxes, yes. Cost of living, yes. Cost of employees, sure. But the length of a ride to the international airport? Where are they moving their businesses to, London? The distance from the city to LGA is probably better than in most US cities.
To sum my opinion up, the two airports require different approaches because they serve different markets. Both have thousands of employees, and that's who'll dominate the ridership. (That's why I said there should be stops along the Van Wyck on the JFK line).
LGA handles the business travellers, so the focus should be on getting to and from Manhattan. Extending the N train works just fine for that. I agree that most business travellers aren't going to be willing to transfer -- but the N serves many of Manhattan's key business areas. The only area that it really misses is the East Midtown area below about 53rd (figuring 6 or 7 blocks is about as much as anyone would be willing to walk -- then again, what subway doesn't miss East Midtown). Heck, if you could get the Broadway express tracks open and aligned correctly you could have pretty quick service from the basement of the WTC to LGA.
JFK is a different animal entirely -- that's why the Jamaica connection makes sense. Most travel to and from JFK begins at home, not at the office. The travellers are much more scattered than they are for LGA. As you mentioned, visitors to the city are going to take cabs and shuttle buses. Since we're not going to build multiple transit lines terminating at JFK, it makes sense to use the nearest transit hub as the base and connect the airport via a high frequency service. It's the same hub and spoke theory that underlies almost all airlines operations today.
Chuck
Thoughtful comments Chuck ! The only thing I'll comment on is that maybe you JFK theory will prove to be valid as it becomes more & more of a chore to drop someone off/pick them up at JFK. Sceondly for short stays overseas as the cost to park rises, folks may opt for mass transit option.
Personally I like driving around JFK at night ... driving ? opps, yes I did say that.
Mr t__:^)
[I'm glad you posted those numbers for LGA (66,000 passengers, 25,000 employees) though the number of employees sounds pretty high -- where do you find a source for stats like that?]
Passengers on the Port Authority web site, if I remember correctly; I think someone posted the number of employees here.
[I can't believe that businesses are claiming that the long ride to JFK is a reason for leaving the city. Taxes, yes. Cost of living, yes. Cost of employees, sure. But the length of a ride to the international airport? Where are they moving their businesses to, London? The distance from the city to LGA is probably better than in most US cities.]
Well, of course I'm only passing along what I've read, but it seems to me that the appropriate comparison here is not with other cities but with suburbs.
A subway line to serve employees is I think in the category of "nice but"--the cost of constructing it can't be justified.
(Cost of constructing it can't be justified)
That depends on what your "discount rate" is, which is to say, how much you discount future benefits relative to current benefits. Given we have a huge debt, and the second worst credit rating of any state, I'd say the discount rate of NYC politicians is pretty high. My discount rate is zero. At that discount rate the airport connection, and much else, should have been done years ago.
It also depends on the cost of contruction and operation. Unlike many at City Planning, I agree that LGA alone does not justify a separate subway line. But it does justify a two mile elevated extention.
[That depends on what your "discount rate" is, which is to say, how much you discount future benefits relative to current benefits. Given we have a huge debt, and the second worst credit rating of any state, I'd say the discount rate of NYC politicians is pretty high. My discount rate is zero. At that discount rate the airport connection, and much else, should have been done years ago.
It also depends on the cost of contruction and operation. Unlike many at City Planning, I agree that LGA alone does not justify a separate subway line. But it does justify a two mile elevated extention.]
I'm not sure what the benefits are, though--convenience for the employees, yes, but that will hardly add to the City's economy or tax base, and it seems we disagree on whether air travelers will use it to any significant degree--which is why I favor a hybrid service.
How many officers of Fortune 500 companies have you interviewed to determine they won't take a subway from the airport? Maybe YOU won't, but I spoke to one who flies to New York frequently a few days ago, and here is what he said:
When he flies to Chicago, he takes the subway to the loop about 2/3 of the time. THAT ride includes 16 stations and 45 minutes before you even get to the loop! And you have to wait as long at 15 minutes for a train in the middle of the day. It's company policy -- lower cost. Late at night, when he's tired, he pays for a cab himself to cut that time. Note that the N train to LaGuardia would reach Time Square in 30 mintues and run every 10 minutes or less.
He HATES the cab from LaGuardia. He's missed several planes and a couple of meetings due to getting stuck in traffic.
Given the choice between a train every four to six minutes taking 30 mintues, and a train every 10 to 15 minutes taking just 20 minutes (ie. a separate service along the BQE, the only other real option) he'd prefer the frequent service. He hates to wait.
To executives traveling light for meetings, add in airport employees, students, and New Yorkers who ride the subway every day and are flying out, and you have a substantial market -- more than a premium priced service geared just to executives.
Would a family of four tourists with ten pieces of luggage take the subway rather than a taxi. Of course not, but so what? Getting the other people off the road would improve the ride for those who still take a taxi. Won't it be crowded. Yes, for two hours inbound in the AM and two hours outbound in the PM. For that, you could put in one train every 15 minutes running express down the middle track for those who would prefer to wait to avoid the crowds.
A subway ride to JFK -- even a direct subway ride -- wouldn't be as good, because it would be far away like O'Hare, not close like LaGuardia. But LaGuardia is perfect for it. You'd increase the number of trains, and give the Astoria Line the newest and best trains. Why not one train every five minutes as far as Whitehall?
No other option makes sense.
"A subway ride to JFK -- even a direct subway ride -- wouldn't be as good, because it would be far away like O'Hare, not close like LaGuardia. But LaGuardia is perfect for it. You'd increase the number of trains, and give the Astoria Line the newest and best trains. Why not one train every five minutes as far as Whitehall?"
Larry,
Your post makes the most intelligent sense regarding rail transporation to the airport. As a N rider, and an user of Laguardia Airport, it will surely be an improvement. Presently I take the M60. An let me TELL you! it doesn't run often! and it is extremely slow!
In comparison to the cab, it is about an extra thirty minutes. And, that doesn't included waiting for the bus either.
N Broadway Line
Here is where a limited version of the "snobway" concept would have value. if there is room for any kind of dedicated trackage, a frequent express service at extra fare with conductors in each car and other amenities would provide business travelers with a safe,swift and comfortable alernative between LGA and Midtown. the added cost not paid for by the extra fare could be subsidized. What the heck, this is not corporate welfare, it is just the civilized thing to do for those who are bringing jobs to the community.
How about running Exp Bus Service from LaGuardia to the N Line, 3-4 Stops. The shuttle term, the main terminal Marine Term and then the N Line. What is that a 10-15 minute run? No extra fare either
(Shuttle bus from Ditmars)
We've talked about this, and I can't understand why the TA doesn't at least try it. The M60 runs so infrequently as to be useless to passengers, and employees who miss the bus are screwed. The official airline shuttle -- from 74th and Broadway -- crawls -- it has to cross several streets with signal priority. There is little traffic up on Ditmars. A bus could leave when all the passengers get down from the platform, and be at the Marine Air Terminal in less than 10 minutes.
One possible reason that the TA does not try a non-stop shuttle bus from LGA terminals to a nearby subway station is that they are afraid of the result.
If the service were lightly used, they would have a hard time justifying an expensive airport extension. If the service were successful, then there would be no need for a direct connection. At most, a LRV on a PRW over GCP to Hoyt Ave Station. Such a line would not engender community opposition.
In either case the TA's plan looses. It's not hard to fathom the TA's opposition.
If you need to get to the airport go to the airport stop fooling around with shuttle busses and peoplemovers. In my limited experience people movers cost as much or more per mile than conventional subway trains. This is probably because of their non standard and proprietary features. In the finest NYC traditions why doesn't the government just "pay off" the opposition and extend the N to LaGuardia. If a shuttle bus is to be used it has to have frequent service and a free transfer to the subway or it will fail.
The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.
In the finest NYC traditions why doesn't the government just "pay off" the opposition and extend the N to LaGuardia. Which opposition? The political opposition has already been paid off. Those who are prevented by law from going before the electorate again - the Mayor and Borough President - support the plan. Those that anticipate entering another election (where these votes cannot be diluted) are against it - everyone else. How about the residents themselves? It is not difficult to quantify the solution. Simply go to the census tracts and get the numbers of people within a block or two the the extension and value of the properties. You'll get a fairly accurate estimate of the number of people and value of property affected. They have not yet made such estimates, although it has been suggested in at least two public meetings. Let's try a ballpark figure. Assume houses on 40 foot lots on either side of the two mile extension. That translates to 528 residences. The average value of such residences in zip code 11105 according to the last census is $229,000. That's a ballpark estimate of $120 million - or 6 years worth of cab fares. It's a crude estimate but a starting point.
If a shuttle bus is to be used it has to have frequent service and a free transfer to the subway or it will fail. If you are going to try to do a fair trial, you would want the experiment to succeed. The bus service should be completely free, make stops at the terminal buildings and go non-stop to connecting subway (Hoyt Ave or Jackson Hts) and run once every 5 minutes (in both directions) between 6 AM and midnight. Run the experiment for at least one year. Define success/failure on the basis of patronage before experiment starts. Now this is the dilemma. If it fails, then how can you justify the capital expenditure. If it succeeds, the need for a one-seat ride has been disproven.
The TA's solutions are the M60 and Q48. Slow and infrequent service. Wait for complaints to answer with a $1 billion plan for which funding is available.
In my limited experience people movers cost as much or more per mile than conventional subway trains.
My read is that a shuttle bus would be successful. However, the local street traffic around LGA can cause serious delays at certain times for people trying to catch a plane. I believe that some PRW will be required. This brings up the problem of displaced persons. The GCP route avoids this. (There are some other alternatives that avoid this but their consideration was beyond the scope of the LGA access study.) However, the GCP route must negotiate some tight clearances around the Amtrak trestle. That's the reason for using LRT rather conventional subways - not cost savings.
[The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.}
Most of the proposals are for an inadequate service, and whatever they do, few people will use it, making it an uneconomical one as well. There are more than enough passengers to LGA to justify a real service if people actually use it, but if they want something that works, they'll have to offer a fast, one stop ride to attractive cab accessible terminals in the business district, and that means coming in via the Amtrak/LIRR tracks. Otherwise, the whole thing is a massive white elephant like Airtrain.
A free shuttle bus service would probably be useful for airport employees, though.
(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway.
Annual cost for bus operation approximately $1 million. Annularized capital cost for "damn subway" - $100 million.
[(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.]
I think you answered your own rhetorical question; the decisions are made by politicians, and what's right doesn't always win elections. Supply becomes decoupled from demand, and nothing distinguishes those who come up with apt, creative solutions and take the right kind of risks from those who would fail in private business.
Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
As far as paying off the local residents. for homeowners or landlords money for noise attenuation, for tenants relocation expenses. Even if it does cost $120 million that is about 1/4 mile of subway construction, or highway construction for that matter, in NYC.
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ... i.e. the N still has the 3rd track to Queens Plaza, so you'ld need to change Ditmars (to side platforms), then extend the line to the airport. You'ld also figure out which way the express goes AM & PM and how long.
With such a short extention it doesn't seem reasonable to terminate the "local" service short of the airport, but politically maybe you add one more station on the way & terminate the local there. Then make folks pay to get off at La Guardia, i.e. double fare.
But lets say you provide local & express service to La Guardia. The express would stop at Queens Plaza, Lex. Ave, 5th Ave (can't avoid it), 57th St, 47th, 42nd, 34th, 14th, Canal (can't avaid it) & finally City Hall. So, 7 stations skipped to Queens Plaza (incl. the new one) seems like a express to me.
Mr t__:^)
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ...
Which yard will you use to layover the locals - now that the center track is no longer available.
Which yard will be used for the express service?
(Which yard will be used for layovers)
Eventually, the Cornona Yard, once the N gets extended along the waterfront to Shea. You want everyone within 1/2 mile of a subway? The N extension could do it for those living more than 1/2 mile north of Roosevelt. And, with the third track beyond Ditmars, you could have express service in the peak direction. The 63rd St tunnel would reduce any contraints caused by the need to put Queens Blvd trains in the 60th St tunnel.
Here's my idea of an N train extension to LaGuardia Airport - and further:
After Ditmars Boulevard: 20th Avenue Station (31st Street), turn right, Steinway Street Station (20th Avenue), go UNDERGROUND, nonstop to Marine Terminal, Main Terminal, and one station for both US Airways and Delta. Then, EXTEND that further under Flushing Bay, SURFACE and terminate at Willets Point/Shea Stadium, where you can transfer to the #7 train, and where access to the Corona Yard is available.
This would not only service La Guardia Airport, but also serve as a THIRD way to get to Flushing Meadow Park by train. For peak periods going to the Airport or the Park, the 20th Avenue and Steinway Street Stations would be bypassed.
Good or bad idea?
The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound. You really do not need to extend it past LGA. You already have 2 trains running a couple blocks apart the 7 and the LIRR, as to yards for storage, build a side extension into Sunnyside Yards. It is not as crowded as it used to be
[The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound.]
The problem is that planes come in very low in that area as they fly over the old watch factory & Grand Central Pwy., so they'll have to use sky hooks or something to keep the subway from floating away.
Mr t__:^)
[Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.]
Never say that--it's amazing how bad some people's intuition is. Spending $1.5 billion on a slightly faster "Train to the Plane" is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen our government do.
The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.
In the finest NYC traditions why doesn't the government just "pay off" the opposition and extend the N to LaGuardia. Which opposition? The political opposition has already been paid off. Those who are prevented by law from going before the electorate again - the Mayor and Borough President - support the plan. Those that anticipate entering another election (where these votes cannot be diluted) are against it - everyone else. How about the residents themselves? It is not difficult to quantify the solution. Simply go to the census tracts and get the numbers of people within a block or two the the extension and value of the properties. You'll get a fairly accurate estimate of the number of people and value of property affected. They have not yet made such estimates, although it has been suggested in at least two public meetings. Let's try a ballpark figure. Assume houses on 40 foot lots on either side of the two mile extension. That translates to 528 residences. The average value of such residences in zip code 11105 according to the last census is $229,000. That's a ballpark estimate of $120 million - or 6 years worth of cab fares. It's a crude estimate but a starting point.
If a shuttle bus is to be used it has to have frequent service and a free transfer to the subway or it will fail. If you are going to try to do a fair trial, you would want the experiment to succeed. The bus service should be completely free, make stops at the terminal buildings and go non-stop to connecting subway (Hoyt Ave or Jackson Hts) and run once every 5 minutes (in both directions) between 6 AM and midnight. Run the experiment for at least one year. Define success/failure on the basis of patronage before experiment starts. Now this is the dilemma. If it fails, then how can you justify the capital expenditure. If it succeeds, the need for a one-seat ride has been disproven.
The TA's solutions are the M60 and Q48. Slow and infrequent service. Wait for complaints to answer with a $1 billion plan for which funding is available.
In my limited experience people movers cost as much or more per mile than conventional subway trains.
My read is that a shuttle bus would be successful. However, the local street traffic around LGA can cause serious delays at certain times for people trying to catch a plane. I believe that some PRW will be required. This brings up the problem of displaced persons. The GCP route avoids this. (There are some other alternatives that avoid this but their consideration was beyond the scope of the LGA access study.) However, the GCP route must negotiate some tight clearances around the Amtrak trestle. That's the reason for using LRT rather conventional subways - not cost savings.
[The purpose for experimenting around with shuttle buses is to get some handle on anticipated demand. They have not yet made any assessment as to how many people would actually use such a service, if offered. They have not made any preliminary attempt. There is no origin/destination survey for people entering and/leaving the airport. The only rationale that they have that such service is necessary to the airport's survival is a secure, independent source of capital financing. A source whose nature is very similar to the gasoline taxes for road building.
The estimate given for the number of passengers who will use the airtrain to JFK is approximately 2500 daily. If you had a similar number using the LGA service, you could give them each a $20 bill and tell them to take a cab. The annual cost would be $18.25 million. With an estimated capital cost of $1 billion that translates to a 54 year payout - excluding financing. In other words, you could invest the capital in the Social Security Trust Fund (the lowest paying annuity that I could think of) and the system would be self perpetuating.}
Most of the proposals are for an inadequate service, and whatever they do, few people will use it, making it an uneconomical one as well. There are more than enough passengers to LGA to justify a real service if people actually use it, but if they want something that works, they'll have to offer a fast, one stop ride to attractive cab accessible terminals in the business district, and that means coming in via the Amtrak/LIRR tracks. Otherwise, the whole thing is a massive white elephant like Airtrain.
A free shuttle bus service would probably be useful for airport employees, though.
(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway.
Annual cost for bus operation approximately $1 million. Annularized capital cost for "damn subway" - $100 million.
[(Studies)
Studies are used to justify politican decisions. No one involved in the political process wants facts, or even understands them. Take it from me -- its my job to collect facts and write dust-collecting memos.
Does the private sector study things? No. They do business cases based on reasonable assumptions, then try things. If they don't work, they are terminated one way or another -- by bankrupcy if needed.
The private sector succeeds by trial, error and creative destruction. The public sector fails by inaction, combined with the perpetuation of error due to political power.
Why not try the damn bus? For that matter, why not build the damn subway. If NO ONE takes it to the airport but you add a couple of other stops, you are at least sure of providing better transit service to north Queens.]
I think you answered your own rhetorical question; the decisions are made by politicians, and what's right doesn't always win elections. Supply becomes decoupled from demand, and nothing distinguishes those who come up with apt, creative solutions and take the right kind of risks from those who would fail in private business.
Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
As far as paying off the local residents. for homeowners or landlords money for noise attenuation, for tenants relocation expenses. Even if it does cost $120 million that is about 1/4 mile of subway construction, or highway construction for that matter, in NYC.
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ... i.e. the N still has the 3rd track to Queens Plaza, so you'ld need to change Ditmars (to side platforms), then extend the line to the airport. You'ld also figure out which way the express goes AM & PM and how long.
With such a short extention it doesn't seem reasonable to terminate the "local" service short of the airport, but politically maybe you add one more station on the way & terminate the local there. Then make folks pay to get off at La Guardia, i.e. double fare.
But lets say you provide local & express service to La Guardia. The express would stop at Queens Plaza, Lex. Ave, 5th Ave (can't avoid it), 57th St, 47th, 42nd, 34th, 14th, Canal (can't avaid it) & finally City Hall. So, 7 stations skipped to Queens Plaza (incl. the new one) seems like a express to me.
Mr t__:^)
Looking a the subway track maps seems to show that providing "Express" service from La Guardia to Mid-town is a no brainer ...
Which yard will you use to layover the locals - now that the center track is no longer available.
Which yard will be used for the express service?
(Which yard will be used for layovers)
Eventually, the Cornona Yard, once the N gets extended along the waterfront to Shea. You want everyone within 1/2 mile of a subway? The N extension could do it for those living more than 1/2 mile north of Roosevelt. And, with the third track beyond Ditmars, you could have express service in the peak direction. The 63rd St tunnel would reduce any contraints caused by the need to put Queens Blvd trains in the 60th St tunnel.
Here's my idea of an N train extension to LaGuardia Airport - and further:
After Ditmars Boulevard: 20th Avenue Station (31st Street), turn right, Steinway Street Station (20th Avenue), go UNDERGROUND, nonstop to Marine Terminal, Main Terminal, and one station for both US Airways and Delta. Then, EXTEND that further under Flushing Bay, SURFACE and terminate at Willets Point/Shea Stadium, where you can transfer to the #7 train, and where access to the Corona Yard is available.
This would not only service La Guardia Airport, but also serve as a THIRD way to get to Flushing Meadow Park by train. For peak periods going to the Airport or the Park, the 20th Avenue and Steinway Street Stations would be bypassed.
Good or bad idea?
The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound. You really do not need to extend it past LGA. You already have 2 trains running a couple blocks apart the 7 and the LIRR, as to yards for storage, build a side extension into Sunnyside Yards. It is not as crowded as it used to be
[The soil near LaGuardia could not hold a subway. It will have to be surface or El. Remember that LaGuardia is built on fill in andsinks a inch or 2 every year into the Sound.]
The problem is that planes come in very low in that area as they fly over the old watch factory & Grand Central Pwy., so they'll have to use sky hooks or something to keep the subway from floating away.
Mr t__:^)
[Low estimate of Airtrain ridership of 2500 proves my point. I"ll say it again, if you want to go to the airport go to the airport, i.e. provide a one seat ride to Manhattan, no transfers to bus, peoplemover, boat, rickshaw, dirigible, etc.
With an activity center like LaGuardia with thousands of workers and passengers I don't think it requires massive studies to determine if a one seat ride to Manhattan or a direct connection to the Subway is
desireable. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.]
Never say that--it's amazing how bad some people's intuition is. Spending $1.5 billion on a slightly faster "Train to the Plane" is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen our government do.
(If a shuttle bus was not well used, it would show no need for the N line extension, while if it was well used, it would show it was not needed).
First of all, the N line extension to LaGuardia is not the MTA's idea, it's the City Planning Department's idea, which TA and Port Authority bureaucrats agreed with, and the Mayor and business community really pushed. It's not something some wacko came up with in a room, lots of people want it, though differing slightly in the details. The City has even offered to pay for it, and refused to pay for anything else. The Queens Boro President has been pushing it for yearss. Only the NYC Council, red tape, and lawsuits stand in the way.
The more likely result of a successful shuttle bus is to establish the route in the public's mind, and show that a better (ie. direct) connection would draw even more passengers. The shuttle bus would be much better than what we have now, and I believe it would be a success. BUT it would take at least 15 minutes longer than simply getting on the N at the airport. If the bus driver made an annoucement on every ride "if you want the subway exteded right to the airport yell at the politicians" it would get built soon enough.
I do recall that City Planning claimed at one of the public hearings to have come up with this idea in a 1943 report. I discounted such a self proclaimed act of prescience for three reasons. There was even less money available capital expenditures in 1943 than there is today. They would not extend the existing trolley line a few hundred feet into the terminal - even though the line connected with the Junction Blvd Station mostly over a private right of way. (They then abandoned the line at the earliest possible time and sold the ROW.) All the documentation for this project carries MTA letterhead.
Regardless of who authored or hatched this plan - it's now the MTA's baby. The could not easily refuse because it has a guaranteed source of outside funding. Planners, politicians, construction businesses and unions don't make money by not building capital projects. This is a potential $1 billion windfall.
The city's committment is soley for the planning study. Of course, they specified this plan and none other. There are half a dozen other alternatives to improve access to LGA at a small fraction of the cost. Some of these plans provide even better access than the Astoria line extension. Even the Feds might withdraw their $1 billion cookie jar, if one of these alternatives were officially presented. I have carefully noted that the purpose of the study is to determine a route for the Astoria Line extension NOT how to improve LGA access. The two may or may not lead to the same recommendation.
I think that we would agree that if $1 billion were available for subway system capital improvements - an extension to LGA would not be the highest priority. However, the independent financing has brought this project to the front burner. After all, $1 billiion thrown at any problem should, in theory, solve it. One would have to appear to be insane not to accept the $1 billion which appears to be available for the asking with now strings attached.
There are strings. One impediment to this project that you did not mention is the NYS Legislature. The Republican controlled Senate has vetoed the proposed MTA capital program. It seems that they want parity in capital spending between rail and road projects. There will be an eleventh hour "compromise" to save the program.
Subway capital funding will be diverted to upstate road building. The diverted projects will not include the LGA access because the that funding is not discretionary. The net effect of accepting the $1 billion will be to reduce capital funding for more important subway projects. Didn't you know that free lunches were outlawed in New York more than 60 years ago?
(There will have to be a compromise with Republicans in the New York State Legislature)
Say that again? In exchange for spending $700 million in CITY taxes, the MTA will agree to spend an equal amount of STATE taxes (half of which come from the city) on roads elsewhere? COME ON!
I'm not sure we all agree that the N extension to Astoria is not the best use of $1 billion. I think it should be the city's highest rail priority. I think we should agree that a short extension like this should not cost $1 billion.
And I firmly maintain that an N extension to Astoria is the best way to serve the airport. A separate line would not only cost more, but would either have to have less frequent service (because it carries fewer passengers) or be more deeply subsidized. If you extend the N, you can increase the number of trains and save money. Have a separate line from Flushing with a double-back and #7 trains diverted from Flusing Terminal? Pleeze.
The only people with a reason to complain about an N line extension are those living directly adjacent to the proposed extension. They should be bought off.
If the city can't do this, it can't do anything.
(There will have to be a compromise with Republicans in the New York State Legislature)
Say that again? In exchange for spending $700 million in CITY taxes, the MTA will agree to spend an equal amount of STATE taxes
(half of which come from the city) on roads elsewhere? COME ON!
From the NY Times, Late City Edition Dec 22, 1999 p B10
Senate Republicans Block Transit Plan
ALBANY, Dec. 21 - The Republicans who control the State Senate blocked a five-year, $16.5 billion capital plan today for the New York region's subways, buses and commuter trains, starting the ritual of negotiations with other lawmakers.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority's plan features work on a Second Avenue subway line in Manhattan and a Long Island Rail Road link to Grand Central Terminal, and fleets of new trains and buses. But it must be approved by an obscure state board with one member each named by the Senate, the Assembly, the governor and the mayor of New York, and all four have veto power.
Senator Dean G. Skelos, a Nassau County Republican who sits on the board, vetoed the plan because there is no comparable state plan for investing in highways. The Senate Republicans have always linked the two, seeking a rough parity.
The plan was set to take effect on Jan. 1, but the M.T.A. has enough projects under way that the absence of a plan will not affect its work for months. Past plans were approved in time to avoid project delays, and the vetoes are seen as the start of serious negotions.
Let's remember: the MTA's capital program favors LIRR construction at the subway's expense; the MTA is controlled by the Republican governor; the MTA would not release a large capital plan without prior approval from the Republican governor; the Republican Senate would not block a large capital proposal without the tacit approval of the Republican governor. The veto, subsequent crisis and the need for eleventh hour negotions has been carefully orchestrated. They even chose Christmas week to launch the attack to avoid publicity.
Would this set a precedent for transferring capital funds earmarked for subway construction to other projects. I can think of at least half a dozen, starting with the 1950 2nd Avenue Subway bond issue.
You have to be careful in dealing with Republicans, who portray themselves as Boy Scouts versus the downstate city slickers. These Boy Scouts earned their merit badges in three card monte.
three card monte OH YEAH!!!
Same old story, that is why back in the 30-50s there was a move to make the city a seperate State. Republican State, Demo City. Pay taxes in City to Albany, get back 40 pct. Keep the money in the city was the saying. t seems like nothing has changed. Half the population on NY State is in the City, and the sh*t heads upstate could not care less. If the City becomes a seperate state, then who will pay for their back roads in Erie or Oswego Countys
I think we should agree that a short extension like this should not cost $1 billion.... The only people with a reason to complain about an N line extension are those living directly adjacent to the proposed extension. They should be bought off.
I'll agree that it should not cost $1 billion - but similar experience with other extensions shows that it will cost every bit, if not more. Moreover, the politicians, construction unions and contractors who are the extension's primary backers will insist that not a penny less should be spent.
Now, you can't have it both ways. You can't cut costs and still want to buy out the opposition. A simple frontage estimate for the first two miles is $120 of 1990 dollars. If you add the people who would be affected by the noise and vibration - then double that. If you want to translate this to 2000 valuations add at least another 50%. Also, factor in moving expenses. As Senator Dirksen once said: a million here and a million there and pretty soon you're talking about real money!
I think it [the N extension to LGA]should be the city's highest rail priority
I believe we have a difference of opinion.
Setting a strict numerical order of priorities is highly subjective despite many so-called objective methodologies for doing so. Among the many factors that would influence such ranking would be: the time to completion; the inconvenience cost associated with construction; the benefit received upon completion; the cost associated with deferring the project; the dollar cost of the project; outside funding sources available for the project, as well as several others. The scope of some of these factors is as highly subjective as their weighting. One would have to be extremely rash to come up with a strict numberical ranking with so many conflicting, contradictory and subjective factors. Let me be rash.
My first priority would be to do what is necessary to guarantee 80% of the passengers a seat during rush hours and 95% of the passengers a seat during non-rush hours. I believe that the rush hour problem can be accomplished by investing in equipment and managerial skills to return to at least 30 train/hour operation from past years.
My second priority would be to build a new 4 track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks. The tunnel would have flexible routing on the Manhattan side - permitting routing up 6th Ave and Broadway, as well as down Nassau St.
My third priority would be to make better use of existing resources to solve bottlenecks at terminals.
My fourth priority would be to decrease trave time by increasing acceleration, de-acceleration and travel speeds.
My fifth priority would be to new areas and destinations. My ultimate objective would be to get every New Yorker within 1/2 mile of a subway station. The LGA extension would be near the top of the list by virtue of its funding source.
All those other priorities will require big bucks and a long time: new signals, for one. Even if new signals are installed, I don't think 80 percent of the passengers could have a seat during rush hours without boring MANY more tunnels and building a Second AND Third Avenue subway. A more realistic goal would be a seat for everyone riding more than 20 minutes, which could be achieved with a combination of greater speed and greater capacity.
I'd but the connection to LaGuardia up there because of its economic function. In general, the subway system provides access to the Manhattan Central Business District. But the LaGuardia connection is need to keep the CBD competitive, dense with jobs and activity, and worth connecting to. In the internet era, more and more people may choose to fly in for meetings, shopping or recreation, staying over one night or not at all. We need to accomodate that with a connection that provides frequent rail service.
BTW, another advantage of the N to LGA. Put an extendable platform at the airport, and off peak (when the Flushing Line is not at capacity) you could run IRT trains express from the airport to Queensboro and on to GCT, in addition to the N, to the airport. As it is, you'd get an easy cross-platform transfer to the #7, but if the #7 were extended west an occasional direct train may be warrented.
[All those other priorities will require big bucks and a long time: new signals, for one. Even if new signals are installed, I don't think 80 percent of the passengers could have a seat during rush hours without boring MANY more tunnels and building a Second AND Third Avenue subway.]
Seems to me that even the practical maximum of 27 10 or 8 car trains per hour is *way* below what those lines could actually handle with modifications such as longer platforms and CBTC. A line would slow down to the minimum track speed/maximum dwell time, but the theoretical maximum capacity is provided by one train running end-to-end, and we're far from that.
From the "Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS" p. 9D-12
The current NYCT signal system on the Lexington Avenue line is designed to allow 90-second headways, including a 30 second allowance for station dwell times, with operating headways of 120 seconds. The additional 30 seconds in the operating headway is meant to allow trains to move far enough ahead of the following trains, so the following trains generally can run on green signals.
This statement regarding NYCT signals is not limited to the Lexington Avenue line. It is system-wide. The key is to keep the dwell times to 30 seconds. This can be accomplished by running a sufficient number of trains.
[From the "Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS" p. 9D-12
The current NYCT signal system on the Lexington Avenue line is designed to allow 90-second headways, including a 30 second allowance for station dwell times, with operating headways of 120 seconds. The additional 30 seconds in the operating headway is meant to allow trains to move far enough ahead of the following trains, so the following trains generally can run on green signals.
This statement regarding NYCT signals is not limited to the Lexington Avenue line. It is system-wide. The key is to keep the dwell times to 30 seconds. This can be accomplished by running a sufficient number of trains.]
As always, it's a bit foolish to talk about overcrowded lines when the TA doesn't run enough trains to use them at capacity. Whether enough extra trains could be run on the Lexington Avenue to reduce dwell times enough to further increase efficiency, I don't know. Seems to me it's the sort of thing you have to try.
But there's overcrowding and there's overcrowding--the MTA's standards for subway capacity might best be called "sardine lite." I SEE NO REASON THAT EVERY SUBWAY PASSENGER SHOULDN'T HAVE THE SIMPLE, BASIC SERVICE OF A SEAT!
Sorry for yelling, but we've somehow gotten used to the notion that it's acceptable to provide Calcutta-level service in the world's richest country.
Does the subway now run in Brunai and Kuwait. They have the highest income per capita in the world.
[Does the subway now run in Brunai and Kuwait. They have the highest income per capita in the world.]
But they don't have our traffic. The silk stocking people get stuck in it same as we do.
Anyway, I'm bothered more by the issue of remaining competitive with respect to the middle class; CEO's can afford to be chauffered, and typically are.
I remain unconvinced that a LaGuardia extension is really that urgently needed. Is there non-anecdotal evidence that businesses are moving out of NYC because there's no direct rail access to the airport? Is there non-anecdotal evidence that meeting planners are avoiding NYC for that reason (see note below)? Is there non-anecdotal evidence that major airlines are pulling out of LaGuardia? I highly doubt that anything of that sort exists.
Note - NYC may indeed be losing some major conventions, but that's almost certainly because hotel rooms are too expensive, and partly because the Javits Center is too small.
(Evidence that NYC is hurt by lack of rail access)?
I had to read a lot of trade literature for a study of the convention center and associated improvements. The meeting and convention literature bash NYC because of 1) the lack of and cost of hotel rooms and 2) the lack of a direct rail connection to the airports. They advise going elsewhere.
Years ago, things were different. They complained about the mafia ripoffs at the Convention Center. That problem seems to have been solved, but meanwhile EVERYONE ELSE is building rail connections to the airport, so we are losing to the competition.
Maybe if they added a stop over in that industrial area, they'd build a few hotels there, and on Queensboro Plaza.
A Complaint is the Javitts Center is to out of the way from the better Mid-Town Hotels, and in heavy traffic it takes too long to get there, even if they use Charter Busses. They can t load in many places because people disregard loading zones
[A Complaint is the Javitts Center is to out of the way from the better Mid-Town Hotels, and in heavy traffic it takes too long to get there, even if they use Charter Busses. They can't load in many places because people disregard loading zones.]
The charter buses are nightmarishly slow--we really need train service. The frustrating thing is that the trains are already there, but we won't expand them.
[The charter buses are nightmarishly slow--we really need train service. The frustrating thing is that the trains are already there, but we won't expand them. ]
I assume that you're thinking of running an LIRR shuttle between Penn Sta and the Westside Yards. You could set up such a service for a few hundred grand. Nobody is interested because there is not enough money in it for them.
[I assume that you're thinking of running an LIRR shuttle between Penn Sta and the Westside Yards. You could set up such a service for a few hundred grand. Nobody is interested because there is not enough money in it for them.]
Not the first time I've heard that. This sort of stuff is turning me into a privatization fanatic!
This sort of stuff is turning me into a privatization fanatic!
A process was developed in the 1930's that can make effectively make structural steel rustproof. The process can be done on site without dismantling any structure. It costs more than painting but is not pohibitive. A few bridges were treated in the 1940's. They have shown no rust damage in the ensuing 50 years with no maintenance. The construction industry and their rule maker friends in the Federal Highway Administration have made sure that such experiments have gone no further.
I worked for a company that manufactured some of the equipment necessary to apply this process in the early 1990's. They also sold consumables. They did not make any money from the equipment but made it on the consumables - the razor/razor blade analogy. The company was always looking for new applications for this process. I had some contacts that could supply as many non-highway bridges as we needed for a demonstration. My company was not interested because the patents had run out on the consumables. The competition would have made it uneconomic for my company to make any profit on the consumables.
So here we are half a decade later with bridges rusting out because there is no profit in prevention. Free enterprise does not have all the answers.
[A process was developed in the 1930's that can make effectively make structural steel rustproof. The process can be done on site without dismantling any structure. It costs more than painting but is not pohibitive. A few bridges were treated in the 1940's. They have shown no rust damage in the ensuing 50 years with no maintenance. The construction industry and their rule maker friends in the Federal Highway Administration have made sure that such experiments have gone no further.
I worked for a company that manufactured some of the equipment necessary to apply this process in the early 1990's. They also sold consumables. They did not make any money from the equipment but made it on the consumables - the razor/razor blade analogy. The company was always looking for new applications for this process. I had some contacts that could supply as many non-highway bridges as we needed for a demonstration. My company was not interested because the patents had run out on the consumables. The competition would have made it uneconomic for my company to make any profit on the consumables.
So here we are half a decade later with bridges rusting out because there is no profit in prevention. Free enterprise does not have all the answers.]
It's an interesting story, and I agree that free enterprise doesn't provide all the answers (that has to do with the theory of ideal markets, which would require an infinite number of choices and infinite knowledge on the part of the consumer)--but in just about any area where privatization is possible, it's the superior alternative. In the case of the subways, I find the arguments particularly compelling--in fact, the only effective counterarguments I've heard from anybody are that the government would run the privatized companies into the ground.
The private sector has a tendency to cash cow assets.
Not a problem in an industry where you have several competing companies, and the decline of one leads to the rise of others. A bad idea on the subway. You can try to regulate them, but private companies are adept at paying off regulators, and walking away from disasters while sticking someone else with the bill. "Efficiency" can take multiple forms.
The example is the Jamaica Water Supply Area, a disaster the city ended up taking over and rebuilding at a cost of millions. The subways weren't in great shape in 1940 either, especially the IRT.
On the other hand, if the government controls and operates the ROW, I think you can privitize the operation of the system. You might have to get them to post a bond to make sure they maintain the rolling stock. Then again, public ownership didn't stop the LIRR from cash cowing the trains.
[The private sector has a tendency to cash cow assets.
Not a problem in an industry where you have several competing companies, and the decline of one leads to the rise of others. A bad idea on the subway. You can try to regulate them, but private companies are adept at paying off regulators, and walking away from disasters while sticking someone else with the bill. "Efficiency" can take multiple forms.
The example is the Jamaica Water Supply Area, a disaster the city ended up taking over and rebuilding at a cost of millions. The subways weren't in great shape in 1940 either, especially the IRT.
On the other hand, if the government controls and operates the ROW, I think you can privitize the operation of the system. You might have to get them to post a bond to make sure they maintain the rolling stock. Then again, public ownership didn't stop the LIRR from cash cowing the trains.]
Those practices seem to be more common among railroads than other regulated monopolies. I wonder how much of that can be traced to a rougher age, to government mandates, and to the desperation of a dying industry?
(Cash cowing more common in railroads than in other regulated industries)
Tell that to the people of Brooklyn. My electric wires were installed by Tom Edison, and our phone wires were laid by Alexander Graham Bell. I know some people who moved out of the area because they wanted to run a business from their home, and they couldn't get a second line. The way those private monopolies treat the borough reminds me of...
the Manhattan Bridge.
Much of the borough is new development. There are no problems there. I have 2 landlines in my house.
[Tell that to the people of Brooklyn. My electric wires were installed by Tom Edison, and our phone wires were laid by Alexander Graham Bell. I know some people who moved out of the area because they wanted to run a business from their home, and they couldn't get a second line. The way those private monopolies treat the borough reminds me of...
the Manhattan Bridge.]
There's no question that Bell Atlantic is the least competent phone company in the country. But I don't think the right comparison is between monopoly and competitive business, but rather between private and government monopoly. The government phone systems in Europe are a standing joke--famously unreliable, and I have friends who pay several hundred pounds a *month* for Internet access!
You never had GTE Hawaiian Tel. 100 families here on Maui are so far out that they can not have touch tone service, the use the old pulse, that is supposed to be fixed by the end of the year. So the rest of us have to pay $1.75 a month extra to have the service.
In NY we still pay for touch tone.
In NY we still pay for touch tone.
Not true. This was changed about 3 years ago. The interesting thing is that touch tone call costs the telco less than the pulse dialed call. The Ma Bell edict had been to charge extra for anything that differed from Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS). So, discouraging touch tone by charging a monthly fee, cost the operating companies more for common equipment than they ever received from the rate payer. On the other hand they bought such common equipment form AT&T-WE.
[You never had GTE Hawaiian Tel. 100 families here on Maui are so far out that they can not have touch tone service, the use the old pulse, that is supposed to be fixed by the end of the year. So the rest of us have to pay $1.75 a month extra to have the service.]
Great example of government meddling: here in New York State touch tone service was an extra price item for many years. It was actually cheaper for the phone company to stop offering pulse service, but the Public Service Commission made them offer the uneconomical service and charge touch tone customers extra to help subsidize the cost of service for the poor.
Idiots. That's throwing away money on an uneconomical, third rate service when you could save money and offer everybody a better service. And yet, whenever I suggest removing subsidies and charging for the actual cost of services, people scream at me like I'm the Devil. I wish they taught people basic economics!
Oh and Central Telephone in Las Vegas is not that great either.
[Oh and Central Telephone in Las Vegas is not that great either.]
And Pacific Bell sucks--but everyone who deals with multiple phone companies seems to agree that Bell Atlantic is the worst.
Pac Bell is still better then GTE I had them both while I lived in the Valley, GTE charged 2-3 bucks more just for basic services.
[Pac Bell is still better then GTE I had them both while I lived in the Valley, GTE charged 2-3 bucks more just for basic services.]
When I was in San Francisco, it took them *6 weeks* to install my phone lines because they weren't able to meet demand. Just reaching them took up to an hour, spent at a pay phone . . .
[I remain unconvinced that a LaGuardia extension is really that urgently needed. Is there non-anecdotal evidence that businesses are moving out of NYC because there's no direct rail access to the airport? Is there non-anecdotal evidence that meeting planners are avoiding NYC for that reason (see note below)? Is there non-anecdotal evidence that major airlines are pulling out of LaGuardia? I highly doubt that anything of that sort exists.
Note - NYC may indeed be losing some major conventions, but that's almost certainly because hotel rooms are too expensive, and partly because the Javits Center is too small.]
The Lower Manhattan Access study gives poor airport access as one of the main reasons that businesses are leaving NYC, and as far as I'm concerned that's the only possible justification to build rail links to the airports right now in light of other priorities.
I don't know why they don't expand the Javits center. Why can't the country's largest city manage to compete with Las Vegas and Chicago, for goodness sake? The land is right there; add parking, convention space, a train station.
Since I'm in a ranting mood tonight:
All we need to do to provide one stop service between the three major airports and the business districts is build some minor extensions and buy the cars. All we need to do to provide subway service to Javits is to extend the #7 a few blocks. We could build a privately run hotel complex on cheap land across the river, in Queens, right by the LIRR tracks, with a spectacular view of the City, a one stop ride to JFK and LGA, and a free shuttle through the yard to Javits with a stop at Penn Station for those who want to enjoy the City. Or on even cheaper land at the airports, or in the Bronx, all with quick access to Penn and the convention center.
So why don't we? Presumably because we manage to Boss Tweed every four-block subway extension and building into a $1-1/2 billion project . . .
[My first priority would be to do what is necessary to guarantee 80% of the passengers a seat during rush hours and 95% of the passengers a seat during non-rush hours. I believe that the rush hour problem can be accomplished by investing in equipment and managerial skills to return to at least 30 train/hour operation from past years.
My second priority would be to build a new 4 track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks. The tunnel would have flexible routing on the Manhattan side - permitting routing up 6th Ave and Broadway, as well as down Nassau St.
My third priority would be to make better use of existing resources to solve bottlenecks at terminals.
My fourth priority would be to decrease trave time by increasing acceleration, de-acceleration and travel speeds.
My fifth priority would be to new areas and destinations. My ultimate objective would be to get every New Yorker within 1/2 mile of a subway station. The LGA extension would be near the top of the list by virtue of its funding source.]
Not bad priorities, but I think a 4 track Second Avenue subway has to top the list--it affects so many more people than anything else.
"My second priority would be to build a new 4 track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks. The tunnel would have flexible routing on the Manhattan side - permitting routing up 6th Ave and Broadway, as well as down Nassau St."
Forget those Nassau Street Tracks, just like the Second Avenue Line (proposed), they do not serve the CBD area. In other words, if they were used, very few people will use trains coming from nassau, because, the same thing could be accomplished by bus in much less time.
Other than that, I like your idea of building a four track tunnel for 6th Avenue and Broadway Line tracks. However, the only problem is getting someone to pay for it. I'm sure it's going to be really expensive, since, no where in the city was a 4 track under water tunnel ever built.
The closes one is the B/D (Man/Bronx) with three tracks and the 4/5 and 6 (Man/Bronx) with four seperate track that travel in different directions.
N Broadway Express
I can think of two other underwater 4-track rail tunnels in NYC. The 63rd St tunnel and the 34th St tunnels under the East River.
The monies will come from highway funding because I don't believe that the current solution to the Manhattan Bridge problem will work. This opinion was first expressed by suspension bridge designer David Steinmann in a report to the City in the 1940's.
New York City has two business districts: midtown and the downtown financial district. It needs to keep both districts vibrant. The Chrystie St reconfiguration left the BMT's Southern District with only one access route to the financial district: the Montague St tunnel. That is a rather tenuous connection. BTW, downtown Lexington Ave Expresses leave Brooklyn Bridge with 75% of the peak load that they had at 86th St.
There is also a second reason for using Nassau St. There will eventually be another east side subway. It will need a financial district presence. If the line comes down 2nd Ave and goes onto Chrystie St, then it can go under the existing Manhattan Bridge tracks (or over the proposed tunnel tracks) and link up with the Nassau St line to Broad St. You will save about $1 billion over building a new line from scratch south of Canal.
"There is also a second reason for using Nassau St. There will eventually be another east side subway. It will need a financial district presence. If the line comes down 2nd Ave and goes onto Chrystie St, then it can go under the existing Manhattan Bridge tracks (or over the proposed tunnel tracks) and link up with the Nassau St line to Broad St. You will save about $1 billion over building a new line from scratch south of Canal."
Using the Manhattan Bridge will only make matters worse for those using the Second Avenue (proposed) and Nassau Street Lines. It will by-pass the major downtown area which, in return, discourage riders from using these services. At least with the Montague Street tunnel, passengers who work in lower Manhattan will have an option.
Unfortunately, from bowery Street to Broad Street, compacity will be really limited, since, trains terminating at Broad Street will delay trains bound for Brooklyn. One way to solve this problem, is by:
1) Make bowery a local station by reconfiguring the tracks from 3 to four. This will prevent second Avenue trains from delaying Nassau Street trains.
2) Next, reconfigure Canal Street into a four track system as well, except, make it an express station. Then, restructure the station so that transfering b/t N and Q trains are easy. It will be an option for passengers who want to cut their Brooklyn travel time in half.
3) Chambers Street, same as Canal Street.
4) Fulton and Broad Street might be a little more trickier. But, they too need to be configure into a four track system, so that, trains entering Brooklyn aren't delayed.
N Broadway Express
[There is also a second reason for using Nassau St. There will eventually be another east side subway. It will need a financial district presence. If the line comes down 2nd Ave and goes onto Chrystie St, then it can go under the existing Manhattan Bridge tracks (or over the proposed tunnel tracks) and link up with the Nassau St line to Broad St. You will save about $1 billion over building a new line from scratch south of Canal.]
On the other hand, a subway down Water Street as in the RPA's 2nd Ave. proposal would provide much better coverage.
"On the other hand, a subway down Water Street as in the RPA's 2nd Ave. proposal would provide much better coverage."
It could do both (Water Street or Nassau Street). However, the Nassau Street route will be cheaper because it's already built. Besides, the Nassau Street route could use some life. And, maybe some of those deteriated stations can be renovated too.
N Broadway Express
[It could do both (Water Street or Nassau Street). However, the Nassau Street route will be cheaper because it's already built. Besides, the Nassau Street route could use some life. And, maybe some of those deteriated stations can be renovated too.]
True. There are actually all sorts of possibilities for building things incrementally, but it doesn't seem to be politically feasible.
My latest pie-in-the-sky dream--a private company to build a completely independent Second Avenue line, using current technology. No trains--zoned operatorless pneumatic electric high speed guideway vehicles. Extensions into the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens.
[On the other hand, a subway down Water Street as in the RPA's 2nd Ave. proposal would provide much better coverage. ]
Is such better coverage worth $1 billion?
[Is such better coverage worth $1 billion?]
Hard to say. It's a dense, underserved area with lots of businesses, so it might be, but the calculations would be complex.
[My first priority would be to do what is necessary to guarantee 80% of the passengers a seat during rush hours and 95% of the passengers a seat during non-rush hours]
Why? Riders have always been used to standing.
[Why? Riders have always been used to standing. ]
I must confess that your question has taken me by surprise. I'm not requiring passengers to sit - like the upper deck of the old Fifth Avenue doubledeck buses. I propose that it be available, if the passengers want it.
However, let me give you two reasons. First, this is a service industry and it good policy to treat customers respectfully. Do you prefer a "let them eat crumbs" policy? Second, a large number of standees interferes with rapid entrance and egress. You cannot maintain scheduled dwell times with large numbers of standees. Ok?
And I firmly maintain that an N extension to Astoria is the best way to serve the airport. A separate line would not only cost more,
but would either have to have less frequent service (because it carries fewer passengers) or be more deeply subsidized. If you extend
the N, you can increase the number of trains and save money. Have a separate line from Flushing with a double-back and #7 trains diverted from Flusing Terminal? Pleeze.
I do think that one should first estimate the demand for a service before proposing a "best" solution. The N extension provides more capacity than the total number of passengers that currently use the airport.
(N provides more capacity than the total people going to the airport)
You've got about 83,000 air trips per day -- more on weekdays -- and about 25,000 employees in the area. Figure 2/3 of the employees work each day, and you've got about 115,000 trips per day. I think that has the potential to go up.
Say the N captures one-third of that -- I believe that's a reasonable if optimistic figure. That's just under 40,000 trips per day. That's not a long for an entire rapid transit line to come close to covering costs, which is why I don't agree with building a separate one. BUT the N train would serve Astoria AND the airport.
Moreover, it could be extended to Flushing to take some pressure off the #7 and provide another route to Shea Stadium. You just run it elevated on concrete pylons only the water. It should be cheap. I didn't say it would be cheap, but it SHOULD be cheap.
[You've got about 83,000 air trips per day -- more on weekdays -- and about 25,000 employees in the area. Figure 2/3 of the employees work each day, and you've got about 115,000 trips per day. I think that has the potential to go up. ]
Let's see: 83,000 + (0.67 x 25,000) = 83,000 + 16,667 = 99,667
How did you add that up to 115,000?
According to FAA Statistical Handbook of Aviation 1995, data table 4.11 the total of enplaned passengers at Laguardia was 9,682,171.
That averages to 26,526 per day. Double that to include enplaning and deplaning passengers (just in case we they were not counted in the FAA data) and you get 53,000. Where did you get the figure of 83,000?
I think I understand Larry's math - 25,000 employees each make two trips (one to work, one home) hence the calculation (83,000 + 2(0.67*25,000)) = (83,000 + 33,333) = 116,333, or approximately 115,000.
Where the figures came from I don't know, but Larry's got access to better figures than most of us do for such matters so I'd be inclined to believe them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for your clarification regarding the math.
Regarding the passenger count - I'd still like to see the sources. Scientific methodology is based on verifiable evidence. The source I cited is available on the net.
[According to FAA Statistical Handbook of Aviation 1995, data table 4.11 the total of enplaned passengers at Laguardia was 9,682,171.
That averages to 26,526 per day. Double that to include enplaning and deplaning passengers (just in case we they were not counted in the FAA data) and you get 53,000. Where did you get the figure of 83,000?]
The Port Authority's site http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/lhisfram.htm mentions 22,849,071 passengers/day in 1998 and 9,000 employees, though that figure may refer to direct airport employment alone.
To me, the most striking thing about the statistics is that the demographics of the passengers are stunningly high. That's one of the reasons I favor a one-stop ride approach; these people aren't looking to save a few dollars by avoiding a cab.
Thank you for locating a source of hard data that all can use as the basis for a reasoned, analytical discussion.
The PANJ figures show 20.6 million passengers for 1995 versus the FAA's 19.4 million enplaning/deplaning commercial airline passengers for the same year. These figures are comparable and the differences probably reflect different counting procedures. The FAA figures come from commercial airline data. Some of the airlines may have been late in filing their reports. The PANJ data probably includes some non-commercial aviation. At any rate this is a 3% deviation from the mean - close enough for government work. Extrapolating the 1998 data we get a range between 21.5 and 22.8 million yearly passengers. This translates to 58,900 to 62,500 passengers in the airport daily. (A bit off from the 83,000 figure stated elsewhere).
You certainly anticipated my next challenge by volunteering the figure of 9,000 airport workers. I think that this is an accurate figure despite your misgivings. The previously stated 25,000 figure appeared unreasonably high. Even given the inflated estimate of 83,000 daily passengers that amounted to 1 employee for every 3.32 customers. That's a level of inefficiency or featherbedding that has been exceeded by only the US Army. It's equivalent to having an NYCT work force of 1 million. Moreover, the PANJ article states that there are only 3000 worker parking spaces at LGA. That's a figure more in line with a force of 9,000 workers.
I think we have a reasonable handle on the maximum number of possible customers. We now have to make some engineering assumptions regarding their origins/destinations to get to a reasonable estimate for projected demand.
Before proceeding, I think that we should set some criteria for whether of not a $1 billion expenditure is justifiable. I would venture that this criteria would be based on the probable number of daily riders and the total capital and operating costs. In the unlikely event, that the probable number of riders was less than 500, then a do nothing strategy might be prudent. There may be some levels where a express shuttle bus might be justified. You might even cost justify a complete rail solution, with 15,000+ daily riders. How would you propose to stratify these service levels and requirements?
(Inflated figures)
The number of passengers has risen quite a bit since 1995. I used Port Authority figures as well, and added a modest growth figure. 30 million passengers a year is not unreasonable.
According to the 1990 census of population, 25,000 people reported working in LaGuardia airport and the adjacent blocks (ie the hotels). The figure of 9,000 may only include airline employees, not those working in the stores, maintaining the buildings, working for the car rental companies, etc.
I agree that a large number of airport & vicinity employees would use a direct subway link to LGA. But as the SubTalker who is likely the most frequent user of the Q-33/E and M-60/N links from LGA to Manhattan (at least twice a month, sometimes more!), I can tell you that many air travelers use the service as well. On each line, the airport users (employees and travelers) must share seats & aisle space with local riders. For those with luggage, it is very cumbersome. Fellow business people I've talked with said that after one experience, they've given up due to the hassle, but would DEFINITELY use a one-seat subway ride in lieu of taxis or bus services.
There are two user communities to be served here - the airport employee, and the traveler. A thorough market survey would, I expect, find a great demand for convenient, speedy, inexpensive rail service direct from LGA to Manhattan.
[The number of passengers has risen quite a bit since 1995. I used Port Authority figures as well, and added a modest growth figure. 30 million passengers a year is not unreasonable. ]
There has indeed been a modest growth - the 1998 figures are 22.8 million versus 20.6 million or a compound growth rate of 3.4%. You were anticipating a 13.4% rate. Possibly you mixed up the compound rates for stock price with the passenger count?
The figure of 9,000 may only include airline employees, not those working in the stores, maintaining the buildings, working
for the car rental companies, etc.
The Port Authority statement reads: "There are over 9,000 persons employed at the airport. " I fail to see any qualifier for this figure. I usually like to do some kind of sanity check before I accept any numbers at face value. I compared the 9000 number with the number of employee parking spaces at LGA. I would venture that the 9000 figure is closer to the truth than your 25,000 figure. Moreover, this proposed subway extension is for the sole purpose of access within the airport property. So, any work places off airport property is irrelevant to estimating problable passenger count.
We could continue speculating about these figures. May I propose an alternative. Let us accept the PANYNJ's figures for the number of passengers and workers as a working hypothesis. Let us proceed to do the analysis that is required to arrive at a probable passenger count using these figures. At that point we can go back and state what adjustments in these numbers are required to support a particular patronage level. Does that seem a reasonable approach to move this discussion along?
(Any workplace estimates off airport are irrelavant).
Sounds like you buy into the FAA argument that mass transit to the airport should only serve the airport.
My argument is to leverage the investment mass transit needs to serve more than the airport. Its certainly a big enough destination for a two mile extension, but not for its own line. An N extension could be used by employees of related businesses. Put in a couple of other stops, and it could be used by residents as well (like the old train to the plane). And I'd love to see a few more hotels near the airport -- employees and visitors could each use the train.
9,000 still seems low. Heck, again according to the census (and other figures like zip business patterns) there are 50,000 people working at JFK and in air-freight warehouse areas nearby. Hard to believe all that doesn't exist. When figures conflict, I believe the Census of Population, Journey to Work file is the most accurate.
[(Any workplace estimates off airport are irrelavant).
Sounds like you buy into the FAA argument that mass transit to the airport should only serve the airport. ]
Not at all. Have you ever tried to walk from any of the LGA terminal buildings to to any of the adjacent hotels? It is just not a practical option.
[9,000 still seems low. Heck, again according to the census (and other figures like zip business patterns) there are 50,000 people
working at JFK and in air-freight warehouse areas nearby. ]
There are over 37,000 people employed at the airport[JFK].
1998 air cargo tons: JFK - 1,612,743; LGA - 23,863.
Source is PANYNJ.
Could you possibly point out the air-freight warehouse areas nearby to LGA? They are hard to find because they handle less than 2% of JFK's business.
That is why the hotels have a free Van Service. Why walk
[That is why the hotels have a free Van Service. Why walk ]
What an ingenious idea! Are air passengers really willing to take a free van service to the airport terminal?
If they were, then couldn't one expand the concept. Extend the free van service to nearby existing transit facilities. Would air passengers still take a free van service, even if they weren't in a hotel? If they were, then you would not need to build the rail spur to LGA.
This is such an obvious logical trap, that I specifically excluded it from any consideration in estimating probable demand. I would humbly suggest that any justification for the spur must be on the basis of demand at the terminals so as not to be subject to such an obvious contradiction.
The hotels provide the van service not the airport. It is that way all over the country by Airport Hotels. Most of those hotels people usually stay 1-2 nights for connecting flights, or quick meetings and are off again, or airline crews layover
This is the dilemma. The proposition is that direct airport access is required and that a two seat ride with a transfer from an existing station to another vehicle (shuttle tram or bus) is not acceptable. Some posters have even suggested that a premium express train is required.
The next step is make a realistic estimate of how many people are likely to use it. The first step is to determine the number of people who have business at the airport - passengers and employees. That number is easy to get - the PANYNJ displays it on their web site. The daily numbers are 62,500 passengers and 9000 workers. This gives a maximum possible unrealistic patronage of 80,500. This figure is considerably less than the 115,000 figure from another poster that I challenged.
The suggestion is made that there may be a significant number of additional potentional patrons from airport related sites that are outside the airport. I objected because they are not within walking distance of the proposed airport station.
No, problem they will use a shuttle bus or van. I beg to differ: there is a problem. You have just contradicted your initial assumption - a one seat ride with no transfers. Don't try claiming distance. The largest and newest airport hotel is the Laguardia East. It is located in downtown Flushing, 1/2 block from the Main St. subway entrance. Yes, they do have a shuttle van to the airport.
You raised the point that these vans are provided by the hotels and not the airport (or by extension the MTA). There is a cost effective solution, if ownership is the determining factor to a successful shuttle operation. Hire the Sheraton Corporation (Laguardia East's owner) to operate the shuttle service.
Do you now see the logical corner you paint yourself into, if you try to include people from outside the airport to inflate the patronage figures?
The figure I gave -- 25,000 -- is for the airport zip code. I suspect that the 9,000 figure doesn't include many people working at the airport, but not for the airlines. Not do I believe it is unreasonable to project an increase in annual passengers, since much of it has already happened.
There WILL be an increase in air travel to the region. But if NY is unwilling to invest in improvements like the N to LGA, that increase will occur (as in the past 20 years) at Newark.
We have an honest difference of opinion regarding how many people currently use LGA. I have proposed that we can move this exercise along by using my set of figures. I proposed this because this can lead to a lowball estimate that cannot be challenged. We can always postulate what adjustment must be made, if we do not like these lowball results. We can argue about how realistic such adjustments are at that time.
I had asked that we set a criteria, in advance, to judge the results we get. Otherwise, we will have a "discussion" as to how many passengers are necessary for train service.
Might I suggest that the estimated passenger demand required justify a service be tied to the current fare recovery rate? This rate is essentially a cash-on-cash basis so it is fairly easy to estimate.
[Might I suggest that the estimated passenger demand required justify a service be tied to the current fare recovery rate? This rate is essentially a cash-on-cash basis so it is fairly easy to estimate.]
I'm sorry I dropped out of this conversation because it's an interesting one, but I've had a mild flu and just haven't been up to collecting facts and figures. But I think it's important to note that the justifications for building a rail link to LGA go far beyond farebox recovery rates. In that case, my tendency would be to say that there are other areas where the money would be better spent, because more people would be served. But the airport--and access to it--has a disproportionate effect on the region's economy.
That's why I favor a one stop link to the commuter stations, which will capture a signficant percentage of LGA passengers or potential passengers who would otherwise not take mass transportation. At the level of farebox recovery alone, I doubt that the project can be justified over others (though I have to leave that at the level of doubt, because whether we assume there are 9,000 or 25,000 local employees I don't have sufficient information to make a reasonable estimate of how many will use the subway link.
I do accept Larry's argument that the option becomes more economical if one serves both passengers and workers, but it seems to me that the link has to serve *all* classes of passengers, and that means offering both subway service and a $5 one stop ride. Since the investment is essentially the same in both cases, and since the one stop ride requires much lower staffing, has a higher fare, and will capture a higher percentage of riders, it seems eminently practical to me.
I hope you are feeling better. Should I check your post for any hidden viruses?:-)
But the airport--and access to it--has a disproportionate effect on the region's economy.
You have to be careful with this argument. It was made back in the early 70's by the Lindsay Administration. They went ahead and built the new passenger ship terminal. I would debate whether this terminal had any measureable effect in halting or reducing the decline in transatlantic steamship travel from this port.
I am certainly aware of the importance of including multiplier effects in any economic evaluation. I will definitely concede that one cannot allocate expenditures along strictly egalitarian lines. However, I insist that a reasonably truthful cost-benefit analysis should still be a prerequisite.
The reason that I suggested using the cash fare recovery rate as a yardstick is simple. It gives us a measure to compare apples and oranges. It also bears some relation to the Constitution's Equal Protection Clause. It also allows flexibility for projected demand and fare structure to justify the service. It also does not require strict equality with existing subsidy levels. Do you have any better quantitative measure to propose?
(The equal protection clause).
Didn't they pass something to make that inapplicable in New York State, land of a million special deals for the "special" people?
This is not unique to NY. Farmers have been singled out as a favored class. Speculators are favored over wage earners. Managment perqs are not taxed as income. There is a long list that violates the 14th amendment - including LGA bound passengers above passengers bound for other destinations.
I have tried to devise a metric that would quantify this inequality. The metric would could also be used as an objective criterion to justify and prioritize service expansions. Can you propose a different metric?
[I hope you are feeling better. Should I check your post for any hidden viruses?:-)]
Thanks, I'm almost over it today. And I missed the bad one--I know some people who are 3/4 dead right now!
[>But the airport--and access to it--has a disproportionate effect on >the region's economy.
You have to be careful with this argument. It was made back in the early 70's by the Lindsay Administration. They went ahead and built the new passenger ship terminal. I would debate whether this terminal had any measureable effect in halting or reducing the decline in transatlantic steamship travel from this port.]
Amusing story about the transit sophistication of the Lindsay administration: a 12 year old school friend of mine asked his mother, who works for the Times, whether the subways couldn't carry freight. She asked someone at City Hall, and they actually studied the proposal!
Anway, I agree you have to be careful, but in that case you're talking about an obsolescent service. LaGuardia will be around for a while.
As I understand it, businesses have consistently listed airport access as one of their main problems with the City. It's also one of the few areas where the City could enjoy a tremendous advantage over suburban and rural areas, because of the wealth of flights to and from the three major airports, and it's an area in which the City must maintain parity with Newark to maintain those 9000-25000 airport related jobs.
[I am certainly aware of the importance of including multiplier effects in any economic evaluation. I will definitely concede that one cannot allocate expenditures along strictly egalitarian lines. However, I insist that a reasonably truthful cost-benefit analysis should still be a prerequisite.
The reason that I suggested using the cash fare recovery rate as a yardstick is simple. It gives us a measure to compare apples and oranges. It also bears some relation to the Constitution's Equal Protection Clause. It also allows flexibility for projected demand and fare structure to justify the service. It also does not require strict equality with existing subsidy levels. Do you have any better quantitative measure to propose?]
As I've said, I've often wished the equal protection clause were enforced more rigorously than it is. But I don't think that's a real issue here. If one goes solely by farebox levels, any money would go to a Second Avenue Subway, and then to the other overburdened corridors. If you had sufficient funds, I think you could make a good case that between passengers and local businesses, it would be a good thing to build--but given limited funds, I can think of other projects that would serve more people.
It seems to me that a better quantitative measure would depend on statistical analysis of surveys of area businesses to get an estimate of how many jobs would be gained/lost as a result of the link, and the net effect on the City's economy, taking into considerations such factors as demand for the Javits center and the money that pumps into the region's business. But even then, one would have to compare those estimated benefits with the estimated benefits of other transportation improvements, and quite frankly, I find that type of analysis rather bogus because the data just isn't good enough.
Seems to me there are times when you have to go by your gut. You can and should make an estimate of farebox recovery, costs, and economic benefits, and calculate an ROI from that, but ultimately I think a decision of this sort has to be made on a grey matter basis. I've found over the years that I have a pretty fair ability to smell white elephants, but no one bats 100%. As Larry said elsewhere, at some point, you just have to try it, as a private business would. The *worst* thing that will happen is that you'll have subway line that some people will use; the best, that you'll have a heavily used subway line and the City will be more attractive to conventions and businesses. Sort of a win-win proposition, I think, if both constituencies are accounted for.
Amusing story about the transit sophistication of the Lindsay administration: a 12 year old school friend of mine asked his mother,
who works for the Times, whether the subways couldn't carry freight. She asked someone at City Hall, and they actually studied the
proposal!
Not only was freight carried by the TA during the Lindsay Administration, but it still is. There is something called the South Brooklyn Railway (SBK). It hauled freight between the Brooklyn docks at 39th St and Coney Island. It ran along the original Culver ROW. It shared its tracks with the Church Ave and MacDonald Ave trolley car lines. It also linked up with the LIRR at Parkville Jct and the NY Dock RR at 2nd Ave. The operation lost even more money than carrying passengers.
[Moreover, it (extention of N line to airport) could be extended to Flushing to take some pressure off the #7 and provide another
route to Shea Stadium. You just run it elevated on concrete pylons only the water. It should be cheap. I didn't say it would be cheap, but it SHOULD be cheap.]
That seems to make since as a second phase of the plan. It might even be modified to turn north into College Point to provide some new service, but then you'ld get the NIMBYs stired up, so better wait on that part of the plan.
Mr t__:^)
NIMBY would not be a problem if the N were extended east of the airport on the water side of the Grand Central. There is no one to object. Waterfront crazies might object to something on "their" waterfront, but they could be easily bought off by a pedestrian bridge over the highway and a recreational pier to provide access -- it could be located at a subway station.
If you go via Shea and up along the Whitestone Expressway, you continue to be separated from the NIMBYs from an elevated highway. If you go on into Flushing, that community is pro-growth.
[NIMBY ... There is no one to object ....]
That's basically true ... just a boat yard, a park, & some junk dealers on the way to Shea & Willets Point. Also going up the Whitestone Expressway there's a lot of commercial firms until you get to about 14th Ave. These might provide some reverse commuting for the line. (reminds me of SimCity, i.e. "demolish" some of those commercial firms so you can "build" the subway)
Mr t__:^)
Unfortunately, you'll probably run seriously afoul of environmentalists if you build it along the coast. They'll quickly point out all the species that depend on that area and force you to move it inland.
[One possible reason that the TA does not try a non-stop shuttle bus from LGA terminals to a nearby subway station is that they are afraid of the result.]
I doubt that they've forgotten the Train to the Plane fiasco--people won't transfer on the way to an airport.
NONONO BUSES are NOT "Executive Material" Smelly buses have NO place in a premium transit service. An express subway line between La Guardia and Grand Central is what the doctor ordered to make business travelers more welcome.
[NONONO BUSES are NOT "Executive Material" Smelly buses have NO place in a premium transit service. An express subway line between La Guardia and Grand Central is what the doctor ordered to make business travelers more welcome.]
Exactly!
And it's the only option that would serve everybody, because it could be combined on the el with N/R service for airport employees.
Actually there is another option. Just build a new airport at the Ditmars Blvd Station in Astoria. Then people can take the "N" to the airport without extending it!!
Actually there is another option. Just build a new airport at the Ditmars Blvd Station in Astoria. Then people can take the "N" to the airport without extending it!!
There ya go! If you can't bring Mohammed to the mountain, bring the mountain to Mohammed!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"Actually there is another option. Just build a new airport at the Ditmars Blvd Station in Astoria. Then people can take the "N" to the airport without extending it!!"
Being an Astoria resident, that idea frightens me.
N Broadway Line
It's nice that you have no sense of sarcasm though.
That's not as farfetched as it sounds. It has been tried successfully in NYC and abroad. The airport consists of two operations: one for planes and the other for passengers. The passenger terminal does not necessarily have to be within the airport property.
Freddie Laker used such an operation for his cheap fares to London two decades ago. His terminal was in Rego Park. You checked in Rego Park. Your bags were taken. You then boarded a chartered bus which took you directly to your plane. The bus could be stuck in traffic - the plane would wait. Laker managed to garner 10% of the transatlantic business before the competition got the banks to cut his credit line.
How did the bus cross the Atlantic?
That was in the days of less Security at Airports. Different world today.
That was in the days of less Security at Airports. Different world today.
I can think of no airport that has more stringent security than Tokyo's Narita. Everybody entering airport grounds is given an ID check. There are roadblocks on every highway entering the airport. Every car is stopped and searched. There is still something called Tokyo City Air Terminal (TCAT) located in downtown Tokyo. You may check in at TCAT. Your seat is confirmed. You go through exit customs and through a metal detector into a secure waiting lounge. You then board an assigned bus to take you to Narita - some 30 miles away. You may proceed directly to the boarding gate, sans baggage, when you arrive.
Granted security is tighter than in Laker's time or the PanAm helicopter that took you onto the tarmac. But it's a red herring, as TCAT clearly demonstrates.
Try Seoul Airport for security. You pass thru a metal detector as you get off the plane. It takes a hour for a fully loaded 747 to get thru, and if you are getting on another flight, the same thing, and this is why Northwest moved its main Asia Hub out of there to Osaka
My point was that tight security does not preclude Freddie Laker type off site terminals. Narita has tighter than LGA but has TCAT.
Seoul may well be tighter than Narita.
[My point was that tight security does not preclude Freddie Laker type off site terminals. Narita has tighter than LGA but has TCAT.
Seoul may well be tighter than Narita.]
Besides, there's no reason security can't still be provided at the airport. Check in on the train--even buy a ticket for a shuttle flight--then proceed through a metal detector to the gates while your bags are x-rayed and put on the wrong flight.
It really makes little sense to put security ahead of the train anyway, since not all people going to the airport will be taking a flight or going to a gate. What difference does it make if it's before or after the train ride? It takes the same amount of time.
You never worked at the airport. Security is not the responsibility of the Airport Authority in the USA. The Security Guards(at minimun wage) are paid for by the airlines.
[You never worked at the airport. Security is not the responsibility of the Airport Authority in the USA. The Security Guards(at minimun wage) are paid for by the airlines.]
While I can't say I knew that, I don't see what effect it has on my argument: as I see it, security checks would happen on the way to the gate, just as they do now.
[How many officers of Fortune 500 companies have you interviewed to determine they won't take a subway from the airport? Maybe YOU won't, but I spoke to one who flies to New York frequently a few days ago, and here is what he said:
When he flies to Chicago, he takes the subway to the loop about 2/3 of the time. THAT ride includes 16 stations and 45 minutes before you even get to the loop! And you have to wait as long at 15 minutes for a train in the middle of the day. It's company policy -- lower cost. Late at night, when he's tired, he pays for a cab himself to cut that time. Note that the N train to LaGuardia would reach Time Square in 30 mintues and run every 10 minutes or less.
He HATES the cab from LaGuardia. He's missed several planes and a couple of meetings due to getting stuck in traffic.
Given the choice between a train every four to six minutes taking 30 mintues, and a train every 10 to 15 minutes taking just 20 minutes (ie. a separate service along the BQE, the only other real option) he'd prefer the frequent service. He hates to wait.
To executives traveling light for meetings, add in airport employees, students, and New Yorkers who ride the subway every day and are flying out, and you have a substantial market -- more than a premium priced service geared just to executives.
Would a family of four tourists with ten pieces of luggage take the subway rather than a taxi. Of course not, but so what? Getting the other people off the road would improve the ride for those who still take a taxi. Won't it be crowded. Yes, for two hours inbound in the AM and two hours outbound in the PM. For that, you could put in one train every 15 minutes running express down the middle track for those who would prefer to wait to avoid the crowds.
A subway ride to JFK -- even a direct subway ride -- wouldn't be as good, because it would be far away like O'Hare, not close like LaGuardia. But LaGuardia is perfect for it. You'd increase the number of trains, and give the Astoria Line the newest and best trains. Why not one train every five minutes as far as Whitehall?
No other option makes sense.]
The officers of Fortune 500 companies I've known were chauffered about in company limousines.
I see no reason why there shouldn't be a dedicated train taking less than 10 minutes (the track length to GCT is only four miles!) and leaving every five, with check in and even ticket purchase for the shuttle on board. Total staff required to drive the trains at that frequency 16 hours a day: 12 or so, a trivial expense. The economics are excellent, since subways would require several times the operating staff to maintain a given frequency, and collect less than 1/3 the fare.
As to routes, I see no reason not to use the Amtrak/LIRR tracks; traffic on the Amtrak tracks is light, the cars could easily be made FRA compliant if that's your concern, and the 63rd Street tunnel will open up plenty of bandwidth to GCT.
To quote from the Dept. of Transportation's Queens access report: "The report does not consider whether the options could also be used to improve landside access for air passengers using JFK and LaGuardia airports. Air passengers have special needs and characteristics. It has become increasingly apparent that it is neither feasible nor desirable to try and serve them by subway."
Which DOT says don't bother serving airport passengers by subway?
Grand Central is on the east side, hotels are in the Time Square area. If you just run to Times Square, those going to any other destination would have to switch modes -- subway or cab.
There are people who will always oppose a transit connection. For one thing, the big moneymaker at the airports is the parking. As someone once said, from a financial standpoint, if the Port Authority had to eliminate one mode of transit at the airports, it would be the airplanes.
Now,there is a Government RIPOFF of the public -- Paid parking at an airport. In Syracuse, NY we had one plant closing which the employer blamed on poor air service. 350 good paying union jobs down the drain because the employer, who relied on frequent on site customer support stated that poor air service was THE reason for the decision to relocate. Airports are a city's executive welcome mat. All efforts must be made to make them as business friendly as possible. certainly, Federal policy in the regulatory arena is in a state of anarchy but businesses who choose to do business in a given locale should be rewarded with, among other things good air service and the best airport to downtown transit service possible.
One reason air service is so lousy upstate is you have to rely on monopoly carriers to get you to NYC, where you transfer. Upstaters want to increase the number of slots at NYC airports, so they can get some competition.
Some Queens NIMBYs (who presumably had the bad luck to move to Queens before the airports opened and are shocked, shocked to find planes flying overhead) fought to prevent additional flights. Incredibly, the whole NY area Congressional delegation backed them and they've won so far.
So we've managed to throw airport jobs to Newark AND screw upstate in one stroke! Usually it takes a compromise at the state level to do that, with Republicans pushing something to screw the City and Democrats screwing upstate in return.
I heard about how Key Bank tried for years to get the Albany area to improve its airport, which was used as a patronage machine by a county executive who later went to jail. Finally, Key merged with another bank, and chose Ohio as the joint headquarters -- because of the airport.
[In Syracuse, NY we had one plant closing which the employer blamed on poor air service. 350 good paying union jobs down the drain because the employer, who relied on frequent on site customer support stated
that poor air service was THE reason for the decision to relocate.]
While Upstate air service is mediocre and expensive, the company's comments could be an example of corporate doublespeak. It might very well be that the 350 good paying union jobs were lost precisely because they were good paying union jobs. But it wouldn't be p.c. to say that, so the company blames air service.
No, most businesses love to criticize unions whenever possible to the point that if some real public policy changes aren't made real soon, laissez-faire economics will turn America into a third world country and erase all social progress made since the end of Feudalism.
[No, most businesses love to criticize unions whenever possible to the point that if some real public policy changes aren't made real soon, laissez-faire economics will turn America into a third world country and erase all social progress made since the end of Feudalism.]
Quite possibly. But on the other hand, we do have elections--if things get bad enough, the political pendulum may swing in the other direction as it did in the 30's.
In nearby Ithaca, Tompkins County Airport is monopolized by U.S. Air. At times it costs over $400 to fly to LaGuardia.
[Which DOT says don't bother serving airport passengers by subway?]
NYCDOT--the quote is from the Queens Cordon Access Study.
[Grand Central is on the east side, hotels are in the Time Square area. If you just run to Times Square, those going to any other destination would have to switch modes -- subway or cab.]
But as I've said, that's one of the main reasons I favor using dedicated terminals for airport service. Most air travellers have bags, and they aren't going to lug them up and down subway steps during rush hour, even if it's just the business traveller's laptop and suit carrier. They want the convenience of a cab, but without the delay. Bringing air service in to the major stations--not just GCT, but Penn and a downtown location as well--makes travel by train as convenient as travel by cab. At the same time, a day-commuter to Boston or Washington can take a subway to the nearest station, as can budget-minded consumers. And N/R service would still be available for those such as airport employees who don't want to pay the $6.50 a subway/train ride would cost--though my inclination would be to make the train service free for anyone with a ticket, genuinely making the train stations an extension of the airport. It would also run all night, unlike the direct service, which would be suspended during hours when traffic is light and a cab ride makes more sense.
[There are people who will always oppose a transit connection. For one thing, the big moneymaker at the airports is the parking. As someone once said, from a financial standpoint, if the Port Authority had to eliminate one mode of transit at the airports, it would be the airplanes.]
Picture this: in 2050, the commercial airlines are failing, thanks to the popularity of air cars. Government steps in to run the most popular lines, providing slow, dismal service with broken air conditioning with no seats during peak periods and 2000 passenger planes with two passengers on them at others . . .
Sounds like the movie Con Air Don't let the Gov't run an airline..
That's sort of what I proposed on my website. Click Here click on my proposed subway lines. Then Click on Laguardia Shuttle
I looked at your website. Two questions: Where are you going to store the cars for this shuttle? Where are you going to layover Astoria trains, now that the center track will be used throughout the day?
[There's been plenty of discussion about service to the airports here lately, and it seems like there are plenty of misconceptions about mass transit service and airports.
Rail Service to an airport is not intended for vacation travelers. It is, first and foremost, intended for the people who work at the airport (there are thousands) and those who work for the airlines. It is secondarily (and a distant second at that) for day or overnight travelers -- those carrying a briefcase and perhaps one bag on their shoulder.]
66,000 passengers use LGA every day, and 25,000 employees. Passengers outnumber employees; both groups should be served.
[In those cities which have good rapid transit to the airport (Chicago and Atlanta come immediately to mind), that's who you'll find on the train. Neither of these groups minds transfering (although in the case of the business traveler, they don't mind as long as the overall trip is about as fast as taking a cab.) Taking these two groups of people alone off the roads will do wonders for traffic.
Vacation travelers are always going to be better served by taxi's or van services. Unless there's a one-seat ride stopping on your front steps, the savings ($6 for a family of 4 on the subway versus $25 for a cab) doesn't justify the frustration of lugging luggage up and down stairs and to and from your local station.]
Yes and no. New York isn't Chicago and Atlanta. The long ride to JFK and the other regional airports is listed by area businesses as one of the main reasons they leave the region. That's why a subway extension, which, as in other cities, would serve the groups you mention, is grossly inadequate for New York. Those people can and will hop on the A train and transfer to Airtrain to get to the terminal; at LaGuardia they'll take the train or bus, or drive if that's more convenient.
Tourists entering and leaving the City can and will take cabs or the cheaper group ride services; only a relatively few backpacker types will want to save $10 to get on a jampacked train and negotiate the steps with their bags.
But to serve New York's business community, we need quick, one stop access from the regional business centers. *Not* just subway access, because even if it's just a suit carrier most businessmen will not trek up and down the stairs and change lines fifty times to get to the plane.
Complete one stop access from *cab accessible stations* in the City's business districts will be as convenient as a cab ride, more economical, and much, much faster. It will benefit everybody. And it won't interfere with cheaper subway access for those airport workers who want to save $5 and take the subway to work.
This is not just theory. The Port Authority ran a premium "Train to the Plane" subway/bus service in the subway for several years, and *nobody took it.* The new Airtrain system will cut 16 minutes off the terminal circuit time because it subsitutes a train for the bus. That's trivial. *No one will take it.*
[Another thing that people really need to understand when advocating mass transit to an airport is that there are completely different mass transit needs within the airport than there are going to and from the airport. Within the airport, high frequency/low capacity service is needed going between terminals. To and from the airport, relatively less frequent but higher capacity service is needed.
Atlanta is an excellent working example of this -- with MARTA service every 10 minutes or so, but the intra-airport shuttle trains operating about every 90 seconds. Newark will be this way once the monorail is extended to the new NJT station, and JFK will be this way with two connections to the higher capacity services -- one at Howard Beach and one at Jamaica.
Those who advocate reactivation of the Rockaway Branch ROW for "express" service from Penn Station or GCT don't have a viable explanation for where the passengers are going to come from. Sure, it would be neat from a railfan's perspective, but the people who work at the airport don't live in Penn Station or GCT. The worst thing a railfan can do is advocate a service which won't get passengers. If you do that once, you shoot the next three projects down -- no matter how important they are.]
But that's exactly the opposite of the actual situation. The passengers will become from the business districts and the subways, which interface nicely with Penn Station and GCT. And that's the whole reason we're building airport access--because of the business districts.
*New York is not Atlanta.* Passenger traffic is much higher, justifying low headway service during daytime hours, and traffic in the business districts is a disaster.
[The biggest shortcoming is of the Jamaica-JFK monorail is that it won't have stations along the Van Wyck through Queens. Blame that on the bureaucrats and NIMBY politicians.]
Why slow the thing down for a handful of passengers? Even if we're talking subway service, it makes more sense for travellers from any area to offer a superexpress, with stops at Jamaica, Queens Plaza, Atlantic Avenue, and the major Manhattan junction points--which happen to correspond with the business districts: A, 7th Ave., 6th Ave., PATH, NJT, Amtrak--Penn Station; Lexington Avenue, #7, Metro North--Grand Central; Staten Island, 2/3, 4/5, 1/9, MNR, a downtown station.
[LGA is unique among major US airports in that the high frequency service between terminals really isn't necessary. Very few passengers transfer between terminals at LaGuardia and given the current space limitations there, that isn't going to change until they drain Flushing Bay. At LGA, you could probably get away with a subway line stopping at the Marine Air terminal, the Central terminal and then between the Delta/Northwest terminal and the USAirways terminal.
You can run the N train to LGA from midtown in about 35 minutes -- no express needed. If the TA can run service every 6 minutes during the day they'll pick up a huge chunk of the business travel segment.]
That's a travel time of 41 minutes, to which you have to add the time it takes to get to the subway station, if there's one nearby--hardly a certainty, since the BMT is not within walking distance of most of the areas businesses. An it would take the train even longer to get downtown.
A cab from the office is at least as fast, probably faster. People will take the cab.
When are the R-142 and R-143 subway cars expected to enter service for the first time?
Jeff Alterman
jeffalterman@hotmail.com
Didn't this question come in second in the "Most Asked Question on Subtalk That Has No Definitave Answer" contest, finishing a close second to "When Will the 63rd. St. Connection to the Queens Blvd. Line Open and What Train Will Use it"?
As for your question, who knows? The R142 was supposed to already be in service, but probably won't see service of any kind until next year. As for the R143, I have no idea.
I forgot what the TA says reasonable hours of service are for employees. You know, like max hours on and rest between maxing out. Also how do these compare with FRA mandated hours of service which is another fact that elludes me.
The MAX is 14 Hours and the Min is 8 Hours.
Cmon Dave, you should know better than that. The rules and bulletins state that no employee shall work more than sixteen consecutive hours, EXCEPT IN AN EMERGENCY. If the employee anticipates working up to and including the sixteenth hour, he/she must contact the supervisor or control center by no later than the fourteenth hour. ALL EMPLOYEES MUST HAVE EIGHT HOURS REST BETWEEN TOURS OR TRICKS. Employees on extra/extra list should have al least ten hours off between tours as per the existing contract. Employees who are changing jobs from one general pick to another are mandated to have ten (?) hours off between jobs.
As compared to federal standards for railroad employees: maximum of 12 hours, NO exceptons. And 10 hours between assignments.
Like I said before; why does the TA think we can work more? Do they place less value on a train of human beings than the Fed places on a box car of flour?
Serious about safety, MY ASS!
There are exceptions to the no exceptions. The LIRR has already made a request to the FRA to permit crews to work beyond the 12 hours for new years Eve.
Twelve hours maximum sounds about right to me, except for exceptional circumstances. Ten hours between shifts permits one hour travel each way and eight hours of sleep.
Unfortunately, hours of work are being flouted all around the transportation industry. The really scary situation is truckers -- my father in law knows a bunch in upstate NY. They are given schedules that virtually require 24 - 36 hours straight, and violating the speed law. If you won't do it, the job goes to someone else.
That's a one time and not totally unreasonable request. Millenium, Y2k and all. Doing it every day all the time is another thing entirely.
Another thing I found out is that the Salary for LIRR engineers and conductors is unofficially negotiable for such holdays. If they can't get enough engineers at the normal holiday rate, they will offer them an extra day's pay to induce them.
At a meeting I attended last Thursday with the LIRR, the UTU members on the Rail Road are being offered DOUBLE time and a half for the millenium eve.
And they call US greedy!
If I am not mistaken, on the railroads the conductor has ultimate authority on the train. What about on the subways? Suppose the crew on a train lost contact with Command Center, and the train was in a perilous situation, maybe smoke or fire, and the motorman and conductor disagreed on what to do---who theoretically is in charge?
heypaul, it is not the Motorman or the Conductor who is in charge. It is me. I call the shots. Particularly if I happen to be holding the doors open. The conductor can empty his lungs yelling, "Let the doors go in the rear!" And of course the Motorman can't proceed. So you see, the ultimate power in the subways is the common man (or woman). ;-)
Know thats Funny every Time someone Holds the Door for more then 2 Minutes I get to skip stops. Last Pick working the No.1 Line evey Morning I got Skipped why. The People Holding Doors at 66 St 59 St and 42 Street. This Happen 3out of 4 Times. Someone would Hold the DOORS at delaying me at least a Minute and a Half. Conductor would Yell "Let the Doors go in the Back". We Leave and Times Square gets on the radio "Good Morning After you stop at 34 Street make your next Stop 14 St followed by Chambers Street. Then tag my leader at Canal Street. Lately on the No.6 Line PMS if you run late you skip 51 Street.
SURPRISE!!!!! The T/O can move the train with the doors open just by hitting the bypass or releasing the brake. THINK ABOUT IT
Drat! And double Drat! My dastardly plans foiled again! :-o
Or the CR could decide he has a door problem that can't be fixed in the station because of time constraints. So, we discharge the train, and identify the source of the problem to everyone on the platform, letting them solve "the problem". The train tootles merrily for a couple of stations and goes back in service, with the problem fixed.
Another Wacky Races fan, I see. Did you know Dick Dastardly was done by Paul Winchell?
Meanwhile, Muttley can be heard snickering in the background...
Makes you wonder if door holding could have contributed to the door engine problems on the R-16s.
If you remember the Clark Street river tube fire when several people died and countless others were overcome by smoke, control center was in charge of the scene. Train crews do NOT have any contol over situations now. The train operator in that incident was credited by the news as saving lives by changing cabs and reversing direction in the tubes. He was promptly removed from service because he made a decision to do so without contol's authorization. In the rule book, the conductor is in charge of the train. In real life, Jay street is running a big toy train set with little puppets in the front and middle of it. Since they have stripped us of all real responsibility and training, it is no wonder they don't want to pay us this year.
Who has time for Central Control to say reverse the train in an emergency? In the sintuation above, if the motorman waits for permission to reverse the train, then everyone dies. In DC in the blizzard of '96, a red line operator died at Shady Grove when his train rammed into a parked one because central control said he couldn't change over from ATO to manual to stop the train despite the icy conditions. The rules should be changed so that in an emergency, the train crew can make decisions that are necessary to maintain safety at all times.
The FRA gives plenty of leeway to railroad operating crews and dispatchers to compensate for the unexpected. If this emergency happened on Amtrak's Newark division, the train and the train behind it would be issued a form D; one for the follower to remain stopped at a specific MP or station and the other for the train involved in the emergency to reverse direction, almost always with the conductor in charge flagging. The NYCTA rules choke service with extensive delays in changing direction. They think rule 251 is the way to go and do little more than let you go into emergency a few times and get your north and south motors for their idea of safety.
F Y I
In aviation, the captian of the aircraft has final authority over anything. In an emergency situation, he may make moves without air traffic control's authority. If air traffic control gives orders which would put his aircraft in danger, he is expected NOT to obey them.
Thought you may want to know. Their philosophy is that the pilot is more aware of the circumstances, and can act faster if he doesn't have to ask ATC for permission. It's on the rulebooks...
--BWB
Well the present air controllers are all a bunch of scabs anyway, after Reagan fired the striking PATCO controllers!!!
Why do you say that?
I haven't had any personal experience with them, but they seem to do a reasonable job at their work.
Because they took the job to replace fired stiking workers. If you can find a better definition of scab, tell us!!!!
I donno. Didn't the PATCO strike take place in the eighties?
Air traffic control has a high turnover, so I doubt that very many people who were hired at that time are still controling traffic. The current controllers probably came in AFTER the strike, and they are the ones who oversee the aircraft. So I don't see how the PATCO strike is still relevent.
Of course opinions may differ, but I think that when one strikes, he runs the risk of getting replaced. I am not familiar with the circumstances of the PATCO strike, but if there were people who were willing to do the job that others refused, more power to them.
I donno. All I can say is that I have confidence in today's air traffic controller. I am willing to put my life on the line (and I do--every time I board a plane).
BWB
The PATCO strike occurred in 1981. IIRC, if they went on strike, they would be fired. They did, and they were.
OK the conductor controls the schedule dispach or train contol sends messagas but the operator dosent move the train unless they feel it's safe so whats the problem?
Harry--- In the rule book it does say that the conductor is in charge of the train? Again suppose a train lost contact with command, has situations ever come up where the question of the conductor's authority has been tested?
As for the situation that took place in the tube fire, I didn't know that the motorman got beat up by the TA. If the newspaper articles were accurate, then that guy and the kid who helped him get to the other end deserve a lot of thanks and appreciation. If I remember, the motorman was physically sick from the smoke. This is an unfair question to you but I'll ask it anyway. Looking at the situation that the passengers were in, did he do the right thing? I don't mean right in TA's minds, but the best action for the safety of all involved.
Depends on how you look at it. He did get those passengers away from a life threatening situation. However, he did it by taking them head on toward the next train coming at him. Head-on collisions tend to be very messy. This is supposedly why TA attacked him.
Heypaul. Although the Authority's rules titularly give
responsibilty to the conductor, in actual practice, it
doesn't happen.
You are paid to open doors and make announcements. That's
it. If you try and coordinate your train's schedule, you
will find resistance from the train operator, who will
chafe at your "being slow" If you arrive at a station
early and pause for the train to catch up, the radio will
crackle with the local dispatcher's voice inquiring as to
why you aren't moving. Late? Try and skip a station to
make up time and you will be suspended. Despite the fact
that NOWHERE does it say that the conductor cannot
authorize a train to skip a stop.
Overcoming a breakdown? Nope. Conductors are given bare
minimum training on door systems and announcements only.
There is absolutely NO training on air bakes, propulsion
systems, or any other anciliary systems. There is a
cursory introduction to signals, but for no use, because
conductors are NEVER permitted to flag a train when it's
operating from other than the lead end. It happened to me,
and the supervisor flat out refused to allow me to do my
job. This again, after how many years of doing it on a
daily basis on the railroad?
Any time you attempt to help a train operator, offer
advice, they will look at you as if a monkey said
something profound. No one expects the conductor to be
anything except a dummy who opens and closes doors. A
moving doorman, if you will. The job is viewed as merely a
stepping stone to some other job. Never as the vital
function it trully is.
If you use the radio your train operator will complain. If
you try and give an order, it will be ignored.
I'll relate a story that occured this spring. I had an E
job. The motorman accepted the routing that took the train
onto D1 track at Van Wyck Blvd. Now the rule states that
an "express train diverted to the local track shall make
express stops unless specifically ordered otherwise"
This guy stopped. So I buzzed him - - two longs to keep
going. He gets on the PA system and tells me to open up!
The nerve! I respond that we aren't scheduled to make
this stop, and to continue to Union Turnpike. He starts
yelling at me to open up on the PA system. How
unprofessional to argue on the PA for all the passengers
to hear! I refused and told him again, let's go. It's
still early enough to be considered rush hour and we're
tying up the road, MOVE it!
Now this guy wasn't new. He should know better. The rules
state the conductor is in charge of the train right? The
train operator is under the direction of the conductor and
orders he may give must be followed as long as they do
not violate any rule and can be done safely.
I had worked the E before, where the train had been routed
to D1. The motormen then had not questioned my
instruction, why this man? Suffice it to say; he get's on
the radio, and starts telling the control center that his
conductor refuses to open the doors. At that point I
opened the doors to avoid a problem. But at the World
Trade Center I tore this guy's ear off, as I read him the
riot act. Do you know he still thinks he's right? And he's
not alone. The line superintendent came to see me at lunch
and told me from now on just do as the train operator
tells me! That's the prevalent attitude in the TA today.
The conductor is a laborer who opens doors and makes
announcements. Nothing more. Management want's it that
way. Makes it easier for them to get rid of us then. the
union? because the union represents so many diverse
titles, our issues get lost in the shuffle. This crap
would never be stood for on any railroad. The UTU, the
conductor's only union wouldn't stand for it, and both the
FRA and the company has a vested interest in well trained
professionals controlling things. Not here. More Transit
Authority mediocrity.
Same s__t all over Mr. R46. I get stupid orders all the time. Who is in charge of a zoning study? Not the project manager.
One of the worst experiences is dealing with the interaction between a) the planning managers, who don't understand computers and b) the mainframe staff, which has the data, but doesn't understand what the questions are that are being answered by it.
I prepared a data request to have some information about new buildings in NYC downloaded onto may PC. ALL the new buildings would fit, so that's what I asked for. After a stern lecture in a nasty tone, I was told not to waste the computer people's time and just get what we needed for this one piece of the project. Of course, extracting what just what we needed required extra programming steps, which the programmer screwed up and had to do twice.
Three weeks later, we need more. And if I ask for more, I'll get another stern lecture about the fact that we should have asked for it to start with.
So you know what to do, but the T/O thinks he's in charge. Same situation. All I can say is, it's not about what, its about who, as in who is in charge.
You cited several situations where you as a conductor were made to feel like a dummy who opens and closes doors. It's funny, I asked Doug last night whether he knew of anyone who yearned to be a conductor? And he said that he really didn't. You say most people see the job as a stepping stone. I have the sense though that there are aspects of your job that you like and that there are experiences you've had that made you feel good. I'd be interested in hearing some of them.
By the way, since I saw Doug yesterday, has anyone seen or heard from him? I hope I am not going to blamed for another disappearance.
If Douggie dissapeared, it's to hike the Bay Ridge
secondary.
I can tell you thousands of things I like about the job.
As a matter of fact I passed up the T/O's job. I figure
that one for many reasons.
I really enjoy the satisfation of helping someone to their
destination. The look on a person's face after they ask a
question, and expecting a surly response get my cheerful
one instead.
I take pride in knowing my job, and if it sounds
presumptious, then so be it; I KNOW MY STUFF. It's sad,
but I have had to help new T/O's through breakdowns. I
get a satisfaction out of running exactly to schedule,
down to the second. Even if the timetable shows little
basis in reality.
I feel good when I see someone running for the train, and
I hold the door, and the person appreciates it enough to
come over and say so.
The excitement of getting into and out of a really crowded station quickly and easily. The view off the Williamsburg bridge, and the brezze across the Rockaway flats. The opportunity to work with friends I have known for 15 years who are all motormen except for me. As a conductor I can, if I took the promotion, I wouldn't be able to.
I really love all the interesting people I meet, and every
station I enter is like a fresh page to a book I've never
read. You can't get that as a motorman. I have run 52 cars
of stone on the LIRR main, and done cab signal tests at
100 MPH on the NEC. So anything the TA has is
anti-climactic. Why be locked into a dull routine of
tunnels, where you can't talk to people? For what? a
dollar an hour more? As a flagger I can make more and do
less than all except a few work train motormen. And as a
union man, the battle is as a conductor.
I love this job, and all it's detractions as well.
The title of "conductor" on the NYCTS is, sadly, a joke
compared to FRA railroads. Done any standing brake tests
recently, Erik> :)
Not since I left the RR Jeff. I try to offer assitance on put ins from the yards, and I ussually get a bush off.
The body of Doug aka BMTman was found earlier today outside a residence in Sheepshead Bay. It is believed that he was in the process of leaving the residence of an acquaintance.
Anyone with any information should contact their local police precinct immediately.
Once again I am being blamed for the disappearance of another person who posts on SubTalk. Just because there were some hard feelings between us since Doug has tried to push me out of my well deserved role as Website Clown is no reason to cast aspirations that I had anything to do with his disappearance. Last I saw him, he was going to look for that water tower that served on the Manhattan Beach branch over by E.14th Street. I can prove that I was nowhere near there at the time, because I was taking my regular Friday night on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, and I have 40 or 50 people who definitely will remember seeing some goofy looking white guy riding the shuttle that night.
Also, spare me the spelling corrections. I purposely mangled aspersions to aspirations.
Well The Conductor is suppose to be incharge But I the T/O makes the Decions most of the Time. But I ask My Conductor if he/she agrees and we decide right there what will happen. I think of Me and my Conductor as a team. Ofcause you must obay Control but if its Life or Death Control is out of the Picture.
(this is an old rule book but)
Chapter 6 "Duties and Responsibities of Employees in the Division of Rapid Tranisit Operations"
This chapter contains Civil Service job descriptions for operating employees in the Transit Authority....
RULE 97 Conductor
(b) Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of trains and are responsible for the saftey, regularity and proper care and conditon of trains and such orders as they may give, not conflicting with the rules and regulations or special instructions, must be obeyd. Where Conductors are not assigned to revenue train service, Train Operators will be in complete charge of their trains.
RULE 98 Train Operator
(c) They are under the orders of the Conductor assigned to their train in regard to starting, stopping and general operation of the train between terminals but they shall not obey any order that may endanger the saftey of the train or passengers or which may involve a violation of the rules.
RULE 97 Conductor
(b) Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of trains and are responsible for the saftey, regularity and proper care and conditon of trains and such orders as they may give, not conflicting with the rules and regulations or special instructions, must be obeyd. Where Conductors are not assigned to revenue train service, Train Operators will be in complete charge of their trains.
I notice that this rule is OPTO-ready.... ;-)
Here are a couple of quotations from the rule book we operate under on the light rail line I work on. We have conductors on this line, but all they do is check and sell tickets.
"2 Tillämpning och fastställande av föreskrifterna
...
4. En säkerhetsåtgärd får aldrig åsidosättas även om detta orsakar tågförsening. Vid överhängande fara får dock var och en vidta de åtgärder, som anses nödvändiga för att förebygga eller minska faran även om åtgärderna skulle avvika från Tri...."
Translation:
2 Application and determination of regulations
...
4. A safety measure may never be ignored, even if this should result in delaying a train. However, when there is immediate danger, each person may take those measures deemed necessary to prevent or reduce the danger, even if these measures differ from those prescribed in Tri [this rule book]....
"32 Åtgärder under gång
1. Föraren är tågbefälhavare och ansvarar för tågets säkra framförande...."
Translation:
32 Operation of the train
1. The driver is in charge of the train, and is responsible for its safe operation....
-- Tim
I saw the news reports about the big rally outside MTA headquaters today. The mood of the Rank-&-file definitely seems hell-bent for striking. Sadly there seems no urgency to resolve the matter.
Thought: If the TWU does strike I believe that there would be a large number of 'members' who would cross the lines because of their probationary status.If this happens, the Willie james era and possibly the TWU is doomed. Could this be the MTAs ploy?
The transit authority went well out of there way to hire as many as they could this fiscal year. Maybe it was because of the contact expiration, maybe it wasn't. I would hope that we would be locked out of the system on the basis that in the 1980 strike, union and non union sabatuers would disrupt any chance of any service. That would protect the probationaries to an extent but only on a long shot. Scabs existed in 1980 and I wouldn't doubt that some will cross the line on hopes that they would get paid without having to work anyway. If one quarter of the system walks out, it is all over for the MTA. Every train in every rush hour is crutial for the survival of the fittest. When one train goes out of service during rush at say, Broadway-Nassau, crews at Lefferts and Far Rockaway go one interval behind. Imagine 90 second headways going 5 minutes or more on the Flushing! No wonder Gooliani is taking emergency steps. But the bottom line is even if you could carpool 10 people per car below 96 Street, you can't move people the way we do. One subway train replaces at least 700 cars. 20% more riders than in 1980. With no where to go. During the Christmas shopping season. OOOOH, the 8 and a quarter sales tax the city won't collect. If the riders don't complain to City Hall, the store owners will. The union stormed out of negotiations this morning because the TA would NOT drop their demands for prepackaged pick and they even refused to discuss other issues they agreed to after the union presented their demands. The MTA is definately bargaining in bad faith. The only way they will feel our wrath is to drag the public, the taxpayers and the storekeepers into it. To which I am truly sorry. Very sorry. But as a majority, the news speaks for me. "Would you like fries with your order?"
At least if the MTA intended to provoke a strike, they'll have some sort of response. We'll see. It is also true that other unions, and various other politicial forces want to hurt the city to make Rudy look bad, and are out to promote a strike. Of course, a strike isn't illegal for them.
As I said, the proper response it to make sure a strike can never cause the same damage again. And that means.
1) Licensing any private van that can meet requirements.
2) Privitizing the bus system.
3) De-unification of the subway into two or three divisions, with turnstiles to distribute funds but no additional fare between them.
If there is a strike that goes on, the MTA absolutely cannot give a big, long term contract, because the economy might go downhill, and the system would end up broke.
I am very angered at the lack of attention by the media of a possible TA strike effects on passengers and riders who use the system.
The people who run the trains and buses deserve much more for what they do, but, if they walk out, not only will it hurt the economy, it will seriously disrupt millions of peoples lives. That is why a TA strike is illegal, and it should be, for good reason.
Both MTA and TWU should get this straightened out, or in my opinion, there should be Federal Police intervention if they threaten to strike.
Many garment and resteruant workers who make LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE work in NYC. Just stop by Grand street sometime and see all the Chinese women boarding trains to/from garment factories, or all the men on their way to work in the resteruants. They work all day, all night, for a measly 3-5 dollars pay an hour, barely enough to feed themselves.
The N20/21 brings alot of poor hispanic immigrants from Queens to Nassau to work as servants and busboys. What are they going to do without that bus? Or that train. Poor people don't have the option of a car to get them to work. And they cannot afford to "strike" like the TA workers can.
The immigrants moved from third world countries so they wouldn't have to walk 5 miles to work, but thanks to a possible TA strike, they'd be forced to endure it again.
I know that if I were a TA worker, no matter how tough it would be, I'd never have the nerve to walk out, or stop my N20/21 from going to
Flushing, no matter how strong the resistance is. Egg my bus, throw rocks at me, I'M GOING PAST THE CITY LINE. My passengers come first. That's what public service is about.
There are other ways to make the MTA hurt, like refusing to collect fares. Or just strike on holidays. But a full fledged strike by even 25% of workers should be stopped immediately and negotiations forced, by the Federal government, police, army,etc.
I am against a strike, because, it hurts the poor people who need transit to live, for improving working conditions. Try working as a resteraunt busboy who lives with 10 other people in a small apartment, for 15 hours a day, or a seamstress in a garment factory, which has downright dangerous conditions like locked exits, not even allowed to go to the bathroom, all for less than minimum wage. Now make them walk to work on top of that! That's what a TA strike will do, and I sure hope that a stop is put to it, a police action if neccesary!
No, I'm not a supporter of Guiliani and his attacks against the homeless (overuse of police), but when it comes to things like Fire, Police, Transit, Medical, and public services of the like, they must function properly, and at all times, and it must be strictly enforced, with force if neccesary, in order to have a stable state.
[I am very angered at the lack of attention by the media of a possible TA strike effects on passengers and riders who use the system.]
I don't think the TWU went into this assumming/wanting a strike, especially a long one, because the members loose as well as the customers. If the MTA has an agenda that their sticking too and it's going to inflick lots of pain on the members ... there's realy only one thing the TWU can do to get the MTA's attention that they're NOT going to accept it ... strike. Maybe the MTA thinks that they're holding all the cards and can't loose ... I don't get the impression that the TWU is makeing unreasonable demands.
So if the MTA is trying to ram this down the TWU's throught, what would you have them do about it ... roll over and play dead ?
If the TWU is trying to shake down the "company" why haven't we heard that side of it in the press ... Labor Relations guy never took Public Relations 101 at college ?
Mr t__:^)
The TWU does not have the right to strike because it is a monopoly of an essential.
What if Con Edison decided to cut off electric power if it is not granted a 200 percent rate increase? It's the same thing. IF the UAW strikes GM, GM loses sales and profits but the people are not damaged. Not so for a subway strike.
I agree that the employees have to have a recourse, but a strike isn't it. Hence the need to break up the subway system if a strike happens (see other post) to make sure only a small part of the city's transport system could be shut down -- by a labor action or other means.
[The TWU does not have the right to strike because it is a monopoly of an essential.
What if Con Edison decided to cut off electric power if it is not granted a 200 percent rate increase? It's the same thing. IF the
UAW strikes GM, GM loses sales and profits but the people are not damaged. Not so for a subway strike.]
I'd have to disagree on this. There's no doubt that a subway strike would be a huge headache for millions of people. Yet most of them will find a way to work and life will go on. While it's true that a prolonged strike could result in significant economic damage to the NYC area, that will take some time to develop. Immediate hardships will be widespread but in most individual cases not terrible. In contrast, a UAW strike that shuts down GM would put tens or more likely hundreds of thousands of people completely out of work - orders of magnitude greater than the numbers out of work as a result of a transit strike. Moreover, effects of the UAW strike will be felt in much of the country, while a transit strike would be largely irrelevant outside of the NYC area (I'll bet that 99% of the people in, say, Kansas City or Phoenix don't know that there's a threatened transit strike and couldn't care less even if they did know).
NYC can't function without the trains. There is much more traffic, and more jobs, and more people, in NYC than in 1980.
And the roads will not be able to handle the overload of cars, and pedestrians.
Walking can only get one so far. A garment worker who lives in Flushing can't walk all the way to Chinatown for work, she wouldn't have time to sleep!
It's too bad there aren't enough boats (ferries) to perhaps pick up people from ports in Queens (Flushing Bay,etc) and travel to dock at various points in Manhattan. Perhaps there should be bus, van, livery, and marine companies all willing to volunteer their services if the TA workers go on strike.
One things for sure, the city's contingecy plan won't work. There aren't enough cars and cabs to transport people, or water crossings (unless they close off part of Queensbridge to pedestrians).
If a strike happens, it will be a disaster and I wouldn't be suprised if the Federal government gets the National Guard involved.
NYC is very reliant on the transit system, and without, there will be economic and civil termoil in the city. This is a direct risk to a stable state, and a strike must be stopped. Force should be used if neccesary to get trains running, and that force should also be used against the MTA, perhaps the MTA board should all be removed if there were to be a strike.
Also what happens financially in NYC can effect America, and the world, if Wall street is closed. The contingency plan is a joke.
A real contingency plan would enfoce the Taylor law, and force trains and buses to run, with force.
The will of the people is greater than anything else, and nothing shall stop it.
Unfortunately, the will of the "people" is often thwarted by special interests, cronies, and corporations than run sweatshops.
The MTA board, as well as the TA workers, are both equally responsible for ignoring the "will of the people" if there is a strike.
Strikes should not be a threat in essential services. If the TA workers are not stopped from leaving the job, we have real concerns about lack of a stable state. Without a stable state, chaos and suffering will almost surely result.
Im telling you the belief of most TWU personel. If we walk away with 15% total with NO GIVEBACKS such as the TA request for our right to pick our days off with a job and the intended privatization of conductor's jobs, we would be happy. Personally, I would demand 0 givebacks and take the 9 percent they are offering us as I realize that although I am paid more than most who work in the City, the givebacks the TA is demanding are primarily designed to break the union at it's seams. I can't afford a strike but have been saving some money and took out a loan from my pension to compensate for the future penalties. The TA went on the news yesterday and said that our demands are outrageous but we were the ones who walked out yesterday morning when the TA refused to talk about anything unless we would "discuss" the pick rights. If we even discuss a single word of a particular issue although we refuse to negotiate it into the contract, the TA can and has in the past declared an impass which sends it to an arbitrator. Binding arbitration would not only stick us with a bad plan not to be negotiated on by the members in article 25 section 2 of the TWU Constitution, but it would become moot as to how much we can be compensated for it in current negotiations. We don't want to lose our rights to pick jobs, holiday tricks, days off and penalties in accordance with seniority. The TA just wants control over us and the only way to fight back is to force governmant to control them, even in a militia envirionment.
(Pick rights and pay)
I agree that holidays and days off should be based on seniority, and that they should be respected if at all possible. But jobs? No. That just means the best and most experienced workers get the easy jobs, while green workers get the difficult jobs. Bad for the rider.
If anything, the TWU should be taking the opposite approach -- more productivity for more pay, instead of less productivity for less pay.
This is a safet sensitive title we are working about with no time for rest on the road. Carpal's Tunnel Syndrome and other joint diseases set in such as in my left wrist now. The deadman hand. No body can physically sustain the road for straight 25 years of service required of us by the MTA. The road jobs have little recovery time at terminals. As we get older, we have to go to the bathroom more frequently and NEED SOME TIME OFF the rigorous duties of road train operation. This isn't like the railroad where we have bottled water, a working toilet and soundproofing inside the locomotives such as the ALP44. They even have a device called a pulse sensory device which times the frequency of activated devices in the cab such as brake application, throttle adjustment, horn, bell, sanding device and other activity instigated by the engineer. NO holding a deadman, a major cause of my Carpal Tunnel. The Transit Authority has taken the approach of more productivity with less pay against the will of the Union so taxpayers should be happy that we are overworked. And we are paying for it.Layton Gibson did as he had a 9 and a half hour workhorse job on the J line. I understand he needed to work midnights and picked so accordingly. Since he had almost 14 years to title, it stands reason to believe he picked in front of most with less time as those with at least ten years can go to the yards. That is called paying your dues. I should retain my right to pick my work program, run pay and days off. Unfortunately for Mr. Gibson, the length of cabtime incurred on his job was NOT his choice as the TA sits down in a cozy chair and says, train crews can stuff ten pounds of baloney into a five pound sack. Not their problem, even after his death, attributed in part to falling asleep. The TA designed the training program to be so short that many have collisions and wrong lineups, that is the TA's problem, not the union's. The TA took newly trained T/Os and shoved them right to the road, instead of past practice where they went to the yard for a year. The union didn't ask for that and the TA says they are saving money. Money before safety. We are as productive today as a robot. It is about breaking the union. Why take already overworked personel and replace them with a computerized system to run the L line by itself? That system costs hundreds of millions of dollars. Look where it got the T/O in Washington who collided in icy conditions. Look where it got us. Washington got rid of Lawrence Reuter after that. Are we really serious about safety? Or are the folks at Jay Street looking to line their pockets at the taxpayer's expence?
(Carpal tunnel and falling asleep).
Sounds like an argument for ATO.
Two things:
1. My probation ends soon after the contract if I strike I probably will get fired if I don't I'm a scab and treated like a leper in the crew room. The proverbial rock and a hard place syndrome.
2. 9% over 4 years? My rent increase is 3% for 1 year and 6% for 2. Maybe it's me but it looks like I'll be losing money as the contract runs it's course. Nevermind the other increases in phone service, Con Ed and food
Look, most people on the board agree that nine percent is a joke, given the productivity gains that have been made, the givebacks in the last contract, and the discrepency with commuter rail. But 30 percent or 27 percent is a joke too.
At least you can split the difference on money. The "respect" issues are harder.
I feel sorry for people in your situation. The TWU should let probationaries go in without retribution if they agree to donate their check (assuming there aren't too many).
I admit I don't know much about the ins and outs of union negotiations. But, I know the TA workers are hard workers, who are essential to the success and daily life of New York City. They deserve a lot more than they have received and a lot more than they are currently being offered. I admire the work they do everyday and hope they are successful in their contract negotiations without having to go on strike.
I admit I don't know much about the ins and outs of union negotiations. But, I know the TA workers are hard workers, who are essential to the success and daily life of New York City. They deserve a lot more than they have received and a lot more than they are currently being offered. I admire the work they do everyday and hope they are successful in their contract negotiations without having to go on strike.
How many of the fare-paying, taxpaying public can go into their bosses and say "Hey boss, my rent went up, I demand a raise". 3% to 4% a year is about what most raises are in the private sector now. But when you include the big benefit package, retirement with benefits after 20 years service, and the overstaffing, it's hard to really get all worked up over the TWU's wage demands. Guys, if it's really that bad - quit.
Hold it. Transit workers do not have a 20 year pension. This is a major discrepancy in the minds of New Yorkers. The best plan they have now is a 25 year pension at age 55, in which each employee is paying 5 1/2% of their earnings for for the "privledge." How does YOUR pension plan from your employer compare to that? Get your facts straight. This was changed in 1976. Before that, it was 20 years of service at age 50. It was never: "20 and out with a half-your-salary-pension with no age limit as you imply.
Yeah, the prior generation raped us good on pensions, not to mention social security. They started out with Tier I pensions, now they are down to Tier 4. You join now, you end up subsidizing those who came before. The only people still making out are those who pretend they are diasbled.
In the early 1980s, the City was collection 1.5 percent of New Yorkers' incomes in taxes just to pay for pensions, about SEVEN TIMEs the national average. Its down to 2.5 times the national average now.
Much as I hate ripoffs and unfair special deals, I am the beneficiary of two. One is the low property tax assessment increase for one-to-four family homes in NYC, relative to other residential property. The other is the exemption from social security taxes and pension payments for provisionals. Instead, I pay 7.5 percent of my income into a 401K type plan. Unlike pension contributions, that money is gone, and I'll take it with me when I leave. That's why I haven't put pressure on my employer to appoint me permanently despite having aced the civil service tests and despite being provisional for 12 years.
Social security? Don't bet on it. Retirement? Maybe when I'm 80. One thing about the 1960s -- with the baby boomers coming into the workforce, they WANTED those guys out young, like it or not. Us, they won't let us retire.
[Social security? Don't bet on it. Retirement? Maybe when I'm 80. One thing about the 1960s -- with the baby boomers coming into the workforce, they WANTED those guys out young, like it or not. Us, they won't let us retire.]
Things might change in coming years, but right now the trend is toward early retirement. Hardly anyone seems to work past 60 these days. 55 is probably the most common retirement age in the private sector, and even 50 isn't out of the question.
(Early retirement)
Whipping out the 1994 statistical abstract, the labor force participation rate of married men 65 years old and over fell from 37 percent in 1960 to 16.6 percent in 1993. While I don't have more recent figures at home, I have see them, and its starting inch back up again. Female labor force participation at age 65 and over has been creeping up since 1985.
From a guy who's 55, yesterday, I don't see the need to rush into retiring. Most I've seen who left early ended up in some low paying job ... that's not for me, when I go it'll be no more working as I have too many hobbys and it looks like all my kids are going to live out of town (I intend to spunge off them while enjoying the grandchildern ... only have one so far). I hope they settle in a city with mass transit so I can ride the rails too.
The serious point is why retire early if you can't afford to live on it ?
Mr t__:^)
Amen! I'd love to retire someday, but age 55 is absolutely out of the question and even 65 is questionable. So I'll probably work until I drop dead. The only ones who can afford to retire early are those where both spouses had high-paying jobs and only one or two kids - not one paid worker, one stay-at-home mom with four kids.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Bill, don't forget us losers who are still in the 30/63 plan tier four. I never paid into the modified plan because of the fine print so many missed. Including the money the TA cheated us out of concerning medical "improvements" the arbitrator odered the TA to pay back in 1995. Which they haven't yet, have they? I came down here at 19 years of age in 1986. At 30 years of service, I will be only 49 years old. I'd still have to wait 14 years to collect from the contributions the NYCTA demands to cut back on by 2%, all the while when I still don't have retirement medical plan in place for the loyal service I will be providing for 3 decades. Where is the goldbricking for me? I'm paying more into my pension than the TA is. I think I should be on strike, not the TWU. The rotten apple here is the MTA bridge and Tunnel collectors do now have a 20 year pension. Along with Sanitation and Fire and blah blah blah. Where is the goldbricking? Can someone tell us why we are wrong other than the Taylor Law? Why are the MTA board members, the president and the chairman of the TA and the MTA vested with 5 year pensions while I am killing myself for the services of the City of New York? How come no one remembers the Mayor raiding the city's coffers for a 30% hike while we can't get improvements in a retirement system that WE, THE MEMBERS pay into? Like I said in a prior posting, NO ONE CARES about a transit worker's plight so we are left to fight on our own, without the governor's intervention and all of Gooliani's rabble. A misled membership led by a union leader on the take is a recipe for disaster and with NO representation on the City Council, New Yorkers are doomed by the runaway expenses of the MTA. You will have a better time getting around New York standing next to Danny Glover hailing a cab as the TA does not wish to bargain with us. The MTA is a state agency that can't be touched by Guiliani and since Pataki's introduction, he will only deal with the railroads. Remember the LIRR strike. They got what they wanted because of Pataki's insistance. And because striking is a form of free speech like the Boston Tea Party which of course is protected by the constitution. Which is discriminatory because of it's only application to subway but not railroad employees. As long as Pataki lets the MTA board spend billions on wasteful projects like the Canarsie line automation and the "Tunnel to Nowhere" and as long as New Yorkers are willing to settle for less such as a Second Avenue project that will only relieve overcrowding in the midtown area only, 400 new diesel polluting buses and the lack of political authority and intervention by the governor himself, a strike is just another cost of doing business.
Tell us how you really feel.
Heres one right off the press- the NYC Planning Commissioners today, unanamously voted to approved our application to extend our trolley operation into Brooklyn Streets.
You must be kidding?????
We must go forward not backwards. LET'S BUILD MORE SUBWAYS.
N Broadway Local
You must be kidding?????
We must go forward not backwards. LET'S BUILD MORE SUBWAYS.
N Broadway Local
What's the matter with you? You got something against trolleys?
12/09/99
N BWAY,
This is a tourist trolley line , no need for a subway down at the waterfront!
Bill Newkirk
(Tourist trolley)
Actually, if they do the sensible thing and permit a lot of commercial redevelopment down on the Brooklyn Piers, along with a park, trolley service down there might be quite useful. The Brooklyn Heights snobs want a small facility just for them, financed with tax dollars diverted from other neighborhoods. Their excuse is transportation.
I'd like to see a loop trolley all along the waterfront with a connection into Downtown Brooklyn, where the subways and parking garages are. And I'd like to see hotels, restaurants, etc. down there.
What will the routeing be? When is the projected date, and will it go near a subway line so the walk will not be to far
The route is in the previous post. Were talking to the City in the coming days, we want to start moving immediately if possible. In this first stage it, it will cross 2 bus lines. If and when further extended, it would connect with the subway too.
Hey, Bob -- Congratulations!!!
Hip, Hip Hooraaaay!!
Say, how much help did you get from Howie G. at Borough Hall? Was he in your corner on this?
And can we expect to see your trolleys running in the Downtown Brooklyn area anytime in the future? The Fulton Street Mall would be a natural for a trolley ROW, since it already has restricted vehicular traffic designation.
Doug aka BMTman
Howie G. was very supportive in the final stages of the ULURP process. It I'll be interesting to see if we can build up alot of support to get downtown relatively soon.
Say,why don't some of you come out to Portland Ore and see how we did it out here,we have a transit mall with free rides within the downtown area,also brand new trolleys made to look like the old Councel Crest cars that ran in the early 50's, we have a new west side line with one (subway)station through the west hills with the countrys deepest station.....not bad for this part of the country....c..mon out.
Doug--- My predictions for 1-1-2000 are coming true as revealed by current events. What with them scooping out the Church Ave. Underpass and the CNG tanks exploding over at the Ed Norton Depot and the Holiday Lights providing electricity for the trolleys, PCC trolley service will resume on all its former routes. And the Brooklyn Trolley Museum will become the BMT headed by our venerable Bob D. And you Doug aka BMT man can rest assured of being a trolley operator for the rest of your life, as long as Bob is the executive officer of the BMT.
Did the CNG tanks really explode?
Over the last couple of weeks on BusTalk, there have been reports of troubles at Jackie Gleason with the CNG fueling island. I think there were leaks in their pumping system, and there may have been an explosion or major problem. No one was hurt or anything like that, but the fueling system there has problems. They pulled the CNG buses out of service for a while, and then from what I read were fueling them at Command Bus.
The details are trivial, but the event is further confirmation of the return of the full fleet of PCC cars and C-49 Mack trolley buses, which are being modified to run on juice and not diesel in my new world order commencing 1-1-2000. So getting ready Bob to see your Brooklyn Trolley Museum BTM become the BMT Brooklyn street car division in a little more than 20 days. And try to give Doug a midnight to 8 AM shift, so that he can have the rest of the day to be on the Internet and ride the Shuttle.
Good looking out, heypaul!
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Thank for the good wishes. Part of what was apporoved was a loop, so this part operates clockwise on a single track, moving with traffic.
The other part of it, is a way to get to existing track leading to downtown Brooklyn. This 2 block connecting section, is single track operating in a Median. Of course, anything going downtown would be 2 tracked, and we would love this to connect into the Atlantic Tunnel, and run through the proposed park.
Bob...Are you in line to purchase any of the soon-to-be ex-Newark PCCs?
Carl M.
I heard that all the PCC cars and all other trolley equipment have been declared a "state historical resource" by an NJ state assemblyman, and will not be permitted to leave NJ.
We've heard that a letter of intent for the purchase of the Newark PCC's has been filed by SF MUNI, which has traffic on the F-Market building so rapidly that with the Embarkadero line, car shortages are expected, and the historic fleet may have to be placed in regular service
When I was in SF in October, I was by the old Genness Car Barn, There still are some Ex Toronto Cars still inside that can be used if the decide to rebuild. Funny looking at the Brooklyn Car, up there To bad Brooklyn did not get such a modern PCC
12/09/99
With Bob Diamond's blessing he said I can all tell even better news.
Those 3 PCC's are second hand from Boston and carry the old MTA (MBTA) numbers. I E-mailed Bob and said they why not renumber the 3 cars #1100,1101 & 1102. The reason? The original PCC order was #1001 -1099. Mayor LaGuardia killed the idea of purchasing and additional 500 PCC's. The first 3 would be of course - 1100,1101 & 1102. Bob brought up the idea to the Brooklyn Trolley Museum and they agreed.
So Mayor LaGuardia , with some luck there should be PCC's running on Brooklyn soil representing the first 3 numbers of a 500 car order you nixed. What goes around,comes around??
Bill Newkirk
Let me offer my congratulations as well. It would be great if your tunnel could be incorporated into this trolley line.
Speaking of the tunnel, I'm curious if any of the original retaining walls still exist at the open cut portions before the portals, or if they were ripped out when the tunnel was sealed off.
We found the fly walls about 1990 or so, we dug test pits into Atlantic Av. The walls are granite blocks, with a sort of "paneling" effect carved into them.
That's even more fascinating. BTW, I have a copy of the 1983 National Geographic article on Brooklyn which has a brief section on the tunnel.
I think hell is freezing over 8-). Where will you be expanding first?
Heres one right off the press- the NYC Planning Commissioners today, unanamously voted to approved our application to extend our trolley operation into Brooklyn Streets.
ALLRIGHT!!
12/09/99
And now the next question concerning a return of trolley service:
Will street trackage be single or double? A zoned area that prohibits vehicular traffic giving the trolley it's own lane ?
Bill Newkirk
If I have my way Bill, Coney Island Avenue will be dedicated solely to trolley lines. It will be a seven track line, with the outside tracks for ordinary local service, the 2nd and 3rd tracks on each side is for trolley races and the 4th track in the middle for two way unregulated trolley car service for those customers who like a little excitement.
All gas stations and car repair shops along Coney Island Avenue will be closed and the land turned back to raising potatoes. Car shop owners and workers will be retrained to till the land and earn an honest living.
:-) LOL!!!
Will indentured servitude be reinstated Paul? I could use a few house maids to tend to my needs.
The middle, unregulated track, will that be owned and operated by the dollar van people?
Gonna find some Peter Witt 8000s and convertible 7000 cars also?
The folks who have them would never let them go.
Hey Bob: How 'bout Septa PCC 2739 parked on the east side of 4 th Ave just north of Union Street?
I heard that it belongs to Eric Richman, why its there, and what he has planned for it, I dont know. Of course, its gaged the Pennsylvania broad gage, which makes it incompatible with the rest of our tracks, unless its regaged or re trucked.
Gonna find some Peter Witt 8000s and convertible 7000 cars also?
Dont forget the horse cars. Then Hillary Clinton can make herself useful shoveling horse manure.
That's great news. Any plans to expand into the your tunnel?
Let me add my Congratulations too !
As a lover of PCCs I think they would look marvelous on the streets of Brooklyn again.
Mr t__:^)
The approval is great news. What's the schedule for expansion and what is the routing?
If the 'Brooklyn Trolley Museum' name were changed to 'Brooklyn Museum for Trolleys,' it could be a new "BMT."
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Cogratulations on obtaining the approval required to run your trolleys on Brooklyn streets. Your trolley preservation efforts are to be commended. A lot of us talk about it, you DO it and get results. From this armchair trolley fan, hats off to you!
I hope your trolleys see the "dark of day", so to speak, and run through your Atlantic Avenue tunnel in the not too distant future.
I see the headlines now (in the Brooklyn Eagle, of course ...) ....
"BMT (Brooklyn Museum of Trolleys) Trolley Service Restored!"
--Mark
Terrific news. What streets?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Who's Ed Norton?..........8-)
>>>Who's Ed Norton?..........8-) <<<
I don't get it.
Obviously Karl M is not a native New Yorker......One of the posts in this string (not from a Bus-Talker) said there was an CNG problem at the Ed Norton Depot....He meant the Jackie Gleason Depot on 5th Ave and 36th St Brooklyn. Sadly it was the home base of the driver who was killed on Thanksgiving....
We know that Karl M does not watch reruns of the Honeymooners TV show up in the Northwest Corner of the USA....Otherwise he would know who Ed Norton, Ralph Kramden & Co. are.
Hey, Hey, Hey,i was a New Yorker untill 1969,i was just pulling you're chain,but i was unaware that there was a bus driver killed and the star of the honeymooners Jackie Gleason name was used on the depot any chance of having trolley buses running on that line in conjuction with the trolleys?.....and i have a collection of the honeymooners tv show on vhs.
Hey, Hey, Hey,i was a New Yorker untill 1969,i was just pulling you're chain,but i was unaware that there was a bus driver killed and the star of the honeymooners Jackie Gleason name was used on the depot any chance of having trolley buses running on that line in conjuction with the trolleys?.....and i have a collection of the honeymooners tv show on vhs.
I was a New Yorker until I left in 1980. I still consider myself a New Yorker. Always have, always will. I was bawn'n'raised in Noo Yawk. Dat makes me a Noo Yawka.
12/11/99
There's a young actor today on the Hollywood scene today named...Edward Norton !!! Seriously!
I haven't seen any pictures of him wearing a white T-shirt vest and crumpled hat and I doubt seriously that he lives on Chauncey Street!
So don't link the two!! GEESHH!! , WATTA GROUCH !!
bILL nEWKIRK
Actually Edward Norton is a pretty damn good actor -- for a 90's leading man.
He appeared in the overlooked but critically acclaimed "American History X".
But, I agree, he's no "Hey, Ralphie Boy!"
Doug aka BMTman
So THAT'S why Fight Club used Soap in it's commercial. Ed Norton had to use it clean up after working all day in the sewers.
One of the earliest memories I have, is as a young toddler, vomiting in the back seat of the electric bus on Coney Island Av.
What electric bus on Coney Island Ave. The B-23 was the only electric bus to cross Coney Island Ave at Cortelyou Rd.
I think the electric bus lasted until 1963.
Ed Norton is the guy they named the Norton's Point Trolley Line after. ;-)
(Just kidding guys -- as usual).
No, no .. he OWNED Norton's Point.
I must update my historical information with this data :)
--Mark
Being cognizant of Jackie Gleason's relationship with Brooklyn and the transit system could it be possible that he knew of Norton's Point and used it as a name so that Ralph could bellow NORTON !!!! o Norton!!!! Pal o' Mine.....
After all he used Chauncey Street as the address for the Honeymooners although he moved it from Bushwick to Bensonhurst for TV.
Nah,Jackie used to bellow NAWton, not Norton.
Nah,Jackie used to bellow NAWton, not Norton
Up goes the window and out comes NAWT-N, C'MON DOWN, NAWT-N!
...oooooooooh - Carlos was teaching you the mambo
...Carlos was teaching you the mambo
...ooooooooh - well ---------that makes a woooooooorld of difference
...ha ha ha ha..
EVERYBODY OUT!!!!!
Didn't he write "Swani River"?
Conover to Reed, Reed to Van Brunt, Van Brunt back to the Pier, also, Van Brunt to Beard, Beard To Richards, and Richards to Coffey.
Congratulations Bob.
There IS a Santa Claus!
stillwell avenue the best subway station ?? i thought the roosevelt
island station was very nice looked great on my Q LINE RAILFAN VIDIEO!! wish i could have seen the good looking r30's on it!!
also a good place to photograph a good old SLANT R 40 !!!
HI FOLKS!!! I'M VISITING FROM LONDON. I WENT FROM BATTERY PARK TO SLEEPY HOLLOW AROUND 4:30 PM. I STOPPED AT THE NYC PUBLIC LIBRARY IN BETWEEN AND IT TOOK ME OVER 45 MINUTES TO GET THERE . WHY WAS THERE 2 SICK PASSENGERS ON DIFFERENT EXPRESS TRAINS? AFTER THE LIBRARY, THE OLD TRAIN I GOT ON (7) WENT OUT OF SERVICE. I TRULY HAD A DISGUSTING VIEW OF THE NYC SUBWAY SYSTEM THIS EVENING. WHY ARE THOSE TRAINS PAINTED AND SO BLOODY SLOW WHEN THE UNDERGROUND IS CLEAN AND FAST? HOW DO YOU PUT UP WITH SUCH DISGUSTING SERVICE? I LIKED THE METRO NORTH RIDE THOUGH. DOES THE SAME COMPANY RUN THE COMMUTER TRAIN ASDOES THE UNDERGROUNDS? MY HEART GOES OUT TO THOSE WHO DON'T OWN A CAR. WHO DO I WRITE TO COMPLAIN?
"WHO DO I WRITE TO COMPLAIN?"
Your caps lock key.
This isn't the right place.
The official site of the MTA is at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/.
-Dave
The service was lousy yesterday. Which leads me to the conclusion that the worst possible outcome of the labor negotiations is satbotage and wildcat strikes. If there is a full strike, and everyone goes out, we'll just stay home. Hopefully it would be over soon. Lots of people would lose three or four days pay, but that would be the extent of the damage.
If there is a wildcat strike, or enough people cross the picket lines, then the "solution" from Pataki's point of view is go forward without a comprehensive settlement and with replacements. Just provide lousy service for a decade or so. As long as people pack onto late trains anyway, and don't bother the drivers, it isn't his problem anyway.
boo hoo!! you had one bad day of service. do you write in when you get to your destination ON TIME!!!. Hey whiner, why don't you move to L.A.
WITH THE REST OF THE NUTS!!!!!!!1
Hey Derek: If you have a gripe against what Larry says, fine, you have a right to gripe. But get your head out of your pocket and cease with the LA bashing. I've told a number of you railfans I'm not to sit by and let some stupid and provocative insult ride without a rebuttal.
Since you are an ignoramus where Southern California is concerned, let me set you straight and put some new colors in your paintbox. To those of us out here, LA has everything but the New York subway. We have a great climate, great universities, beautiful girls, and the best athletes in the country. Do yourself a favor and lay off Southern California unless you want a war. I didn't appreciate your ignorant and self-serving remark. Now get your damn act together.
If LA is so great, then how come they always have to copy everything from New York? Almost every pizza place you see claims to have "New York Style Pizza" -- and serves up the worst crap known to man. Or the "Philly Cheese Steaks" -- another place Californians just can't get it right.
And nine-tenths of the "beautiful" women in southern California are only looking for ONE thing -- $$$$.
California is NOT the greatplace people try to put it off to be. If I wasn't in such a financial rut, I'd be able to afford to be out of California in a minute! And I'd make damn sure the door didn't hit me in the ass as Ileft either.
So there!
we had a rail and trolley system that was great !! at least new york and new jersey kept most of their rail and subway and trolley system!!
LOS ANGELES DESTROYED ITS RAIL SYSTEM
That's no reason to bag on California and I won't stand for it. California is a great place and most people are very jealous of us because we have to many options and we're not stupid enough to fork over our dough so we can get a football team like so many other idiotic states do.
Where there is a will there's a way. Financial rut or not, if you really want to leave California, you're free to go and no one will stop you. If you noticed our out of state population is booming again
Why? Climate, opportunity, and a great lifestyle. As for New York Pizza, I've found a place in Ontario that makes great pizza. So there!
As for the women wanting only money, you must be thinking of Texas. There are a lot of fine ladies out here so you must be looking in bars and other cat holes. I see them all the time and for the most part they are warm and friendly. It doesn't make a difference to me since I am a very happily married man (over 29 years). I hope you reconsider because I hate to see people sour on my state.
Sorry you found the service so poor. If you want to complain, you can call or write to NYC Transit
Travel Information Center
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
(718) 330-1234
For the record, using caps is considered ill-mannered and for someone from England, you really do murder the language.
Cor blimmey gov. Join me on me next subway tour and I shall show ya the finner points of the service. You obviuosly missed the railfan windows, Redbirds,fast express service, tight corners, station mosaics, ells, hot dogs at Nathans. There is nothing like it.
Simon
Swindon UK
From Sydney, Australia:
I was in NY from late September to October 10 and travelled on the subway every day somewhere or other. I was delayed only once on a one line about midnight after the opera; one day I noted a train standing with no passengers about Wall St on the Lex. Otherwise no problems and my compliments to all those who make the system run so well.
I travelled to Coney Is, 241st St, 242nd St, Main St (twice), all the main lines in Manhattan, no graffiti, trains always clean, as far as I could tell close to the schedule intervals but experienced overcrowing where it was expected, ie EF lines and on the Lex. Its part of NY, isn't it?
Even noted cars at Main St (and maybe other terminals) having a quick clean before returning on the next trip, 2-3 minutes away.
The subway is a greatly different place compared to the 1980s and it and NY are good for it. I was amazed that in NY, smoking, eating and drinking were not permitted underground (or above for that matter) and the system is better for it.
There is always more work to do, but London is about the same. Back in '97 there, I found a lot of problems, and there were the same ones in '99.
Keep it up, subway guys, its a great product.
Ian, Can you let me have your email address
Simon
I would Like to know if anybody knows where the locations are(as well as what lines they serve and the areas that they cover)to all of the master towers(like the one located at Grand Central)in the BMT as well as in the IND.(I already have the ones in the IRT)
As mentioned earlier, one important response to a strike would be to de-unify the subway into three plus operating agencies, which are fiscally independent, and have contracts expiring at different times (the bus lines could be easily privatized). You'd need separate shops, or sections of shops. And where two divisions shared the same station you'd need turnstiles between them (with no extra fare) to apportion farebox revenues between them. Fare collection would become an agencywide, MTA function. Obviously, two divisions could not share the same platform.
One obvious step would be to split off the IRT.
Next, the new 2nd Avenue subway could become the core of a new division (snobway), integrated with the commuter railroads, up to FRA standards, and charging an express bus fare. It would have an express train that ran from Jamaica, along the Atlantic Avenue Branch, through a new tunnel (as RPA proposed), up 2nd Avenue, to a terminal at GCT. The Brighton Line could also be hooked into the new tunnel beyond Atlantic Avenue, and run as a local train up the east side as far as 125th. Finally, one or more of the LIRR trains through Queens could be converted to express subway service down the new 2nd Avenue line, via the 63rd St connection that would also connect the LIRR to GCT. It would also run express. The commuter railroads would have free transfers to the snobway, but not other lines.
An IND/BMT distinction is also possible. The West End or Sea Beach line would be integrated into the IND, via the connection to the Rutgers St tunnel. Outside platforms would have to be built at 59th Street, 36th Street, and Pacific Street, to separate the IND and BMT divisions. Similar reconstruction would be needed at Stillwell terminal -- turnstiles would have to be installed between levels at Jamaica.
Those living east of Ocean Avenue in Brooklyn would have to be given another subway option, since many could not afford the snobway. The Utica Avenue line would be built to serve that purpose.
Obviously, the investments required to provide a viable, de-unified service would be substantial. First, if the agencies were required by law to have contracts that expired at different times, strikes would not be as devasting (and might be legalized). Second, there is enough overlap that the division could be made to compete, even privatized, based on fares and service. The operating subsidy (if any) could be fixed and equal for all, or limited to the maintenace of the tracks and stations, with the individual organziations expected to fund the purchase, maintenance, and operation of the cars out of the farebox.
What do you think?
I think you're F^%&ing CRAZY...You should purge this Idea from your arse right away!
If I were going to split things, I would probably just divide it between the `A' and `B' divisions, and divy up revenues at transfer stations according to the turnstile location (i.e. at say, Union Square, the BMT-IND would get the Metrocard fare credits from the Union Square West turnstiles, while the IRT would get the ones from the Park Ave. and 14th St. entrance). You'd also have to offer bounses for on-time performance, maintenance improvments and ridership increases over set levels in order to make the two divisions competitive, since there would be only a few spots where the IRT and BMT/IND divisions could be in direct competition carrying riders from point A to point B (like going from Times Square to City Hall, or Columbus Circle to Borough Hall in Brooklyn)
Unless you give the workers some potential financial benefit from privitization, there really isn't much reason to even bother with it.
You know, it was half a joke, but the more I think about this, the more it makes sense.
Not only would riders have two or three competing companies to ride with -- useful in the event of a strike. But rail workers would have that many more potential employees. Just as the TA is so dominant it has a semi-monopoly over travel to Manhattan, so it also has a semi-monopoly over rail employment. Sure, SOME TA workers could get other jobs, but not too many. So you'd have several organizations competing for riders, good workers, and capital dollars rather than one monopolizing all three.
Workers benefit from privitization? Why not? Let's say you set out with a goal of breaking even on an "auto-equivalent basis." Local governments (NYC or county) and advertizement/commercial rents pay to maintain the stations, since they raise local property values, and state taxes pay for the tracks and signals, just as it pays for state roads. The MTA operates the fare system, and apportions the revenues after deducting a fee.
That leaves the three organizations to pay for the purchase, maintenance, and operation of the trains and buses, and related shops and yards. They charge the fare, provide the service, keep the profits. Make them employee owned organizations. I'd be the following would happen:
1) New cars would cost less than $2.2 million.
2) And would last longer -- more jobs rehabbing, less money outflow.
3) OPTO wouldn't seem so bad after all.
4) Management fat would disappear. With their own profits on the line, the workers would manage themselves.
So you'd have the A and B divisions, then make the 2nd Avenue subway FRA compliant and link it into the commuter railroads. That's three competing options right there.
[So you'd have the A and B divisions, then make the 2nd Avenue subway FRA compliant and link it into the commuter railroads. That's three competing options right there.]
I think you could get by with two.
Interestingly enough, even the government becomes competitive when it's faced with private competition. Look at the IND--not just private business but the City as well stopped expanding the system the moment it became a muncipal monopoly.
[As mentioned earlier, one important response to a strike would be to de-unify the subway into three plus operating agencies, which are fiscally independent, and have contracts expiring at different times (the bus lines could be easily privatized). You'd need separate shops, or sections of shops.]
If you were HeyPaul I would immediatly dismiss this as a joke, but it's Larry, so I assume you're serious.
1. How do you break the union ... just breaking up the company isn't going to make the TWU go away. They'll know what you're up to & would surely remind all the democrates of thier voting power. So you would probally end up with several TWU groups which would all make their contracts expire at the same time ... so what did you change ?
2. Who's going to want to come in a run the trains, buses, etc. ? Well, if you break it up in small pieces then a number of operators would step forward ... I'll bid on the flushing line and promise to keep the Red Birds there for ever ! I'll also come up with a plan to extend the line to Port Washington and Newark.
Seriously, the MTA could start by making the contracts NOT expire at the same time ... is the TWU going to strike over THAT issue if they get what else they want ? Do the contracts of the DOT "privates" expire at this same time ... they do NOT (they are also local 100 !).
So what do you end up with ? Seperate contracts at:
- LIRR
- Metro-North
- TA bus fleet (how about MaBSTA vs. reast of TA ... heck they like to think of themselves as different)
- DOT bus fleet
- LI Bus fleet
- TA subway fleet (can you make a case for IRT vs BMT/IND ... might be a real hard sell to TWU)
- NJ Transit ... now there's another real big operation, so lets fix it too.
Mr t__:^)
{What do you think?]
I love your overall plan, particularly de-unification and privatization.
I'd do some things differently than the RPA, but if I spend more time on this board I'll never do anything at all. So I'll just say that I'd do more to integrate the commuter, subway, and PATH lines, with subway-style local service and superexpress service on all but overlapping commuter ROW's, with zoned commuter trains taking passengers directly via a new technolgoy ring line on Marginal and West Streets to enhanced crosstown subway links in the major business districts an at the same time offering superexpress service to all the City's boroughs, etc.
It's worth noting that by my (very approximate) estimates private business could build a Manhattan length 4 track 2nd Avenue subway for about 3-1/2 billion dollars, as opposed to the 10 billion or so it would cost government.
Within 10 years, I think we could have service that's infinitely superior not just to what we have today, but to anything the RPA has proposed. A seat during rush hour. Two minute headway at 3AM. Air conditioned, quiet stations. And fast access to many or most of the areas that are currently underserved.
The 57th Street Station is in no shape to handle the increased traffic which will occur once the 63rd Street Connector is complete. Currently the only entrance to the platform level of the station is in the middle of the mezzanine level of the station. So station entrances on the south and north sides of the station are practically useless. In addition, the exits from the platform level to the mezzanine level on the far sides of the station only allow for one person at a time (single metallic turnstiles). It's time to increase the number of turnstiles on the far ends and to turn them into metrocard-only entrances.
(57/6 low exit capacity)
A short term solution (one I was highly in favor of when I worked over there) would be to unlock those slam gates for the AM rush. It's tough to imagine much farebeating then--how many people are waking up in the morning on Central Park South in a hurry to get on the train and go someplace else?
I don't even think the connection would bring that much more traffic to the 57th/6th Av. station. While the routes might change, everything above ground will remain the same. That station is as busy now as it was when it was a terminal a decade ago.
I think there will be a significant increase in passengers boarding and exiting at 57th and 6th once the connection opens. Many of the Queens Blvd. passengers who now get off at either 5th and 53rd or even 7th and 53rd are likely to switch to that station.
The 57/6 station has two advantages that I can think of -- first, that it will be less congested and second, that the station is much easier to enter/exit -- despite the limitations noted by the original poster.
With the poor configuration of entrances at 53/5 and the depth of the station, I can go from my office (55th and 5th) to the platform at 57/6 faster than I can get to the platform at 53/5.
"I don't even think the connection would bring that much more traffic to the 57th/6th Av. station. While the routes might change, everything above ground will remain the same. That station is as busy now as it was when it was a terminal a decade ago."
Suprisingly, that station is heavily used during the Rush hour period. Therefore, I expect heavier use when the line is connected to Queens Blvd.
N Broadway Local
Why? People who need to get to this station from Queens already use the F train, then transfer to an uptown Q. When the connection opens, these people will probably come in directly from Queens. Different direction maybe, but not a larger number.
After posting a message about the new JFK-Jamaica transit link I got
to thinking what is the biggest "white elephant" line currently in
revenue service? Let's stick to rapid transit.
No contest. The "new" Franklin Ave Shuttle. Although I hate to say this, it really should have been closed years ago.
In terms of expense to build and operate vs. benefit provided and revenue generated, either the G Line between Queens Plaza and Hoyt-Schermerhorn or the Rockaway Line.
The G was way overbuilt for the need. Arguments that it was a key part of a super-duper "Second System" fall short.
The Rockaway Line requires a long lead to serve a penisula a few blocks wide.
However, since they do exist, I wouldn't abandon either on principle. Instead I would look for ways to make them more useful.
I think the G is a white elephant because it doesn't go to Manhattan. The neighborhoods it serves are dense. If it had been hooked in at both ends and run as a loop, it would be heavily used today.
Either the Broadway Line or the 6th Avenue line could be considered a white elephant, since with a couple of more connections the TA could get along without one of them. Lots of express capacity in the outer boroughs is a white elephant, especially on the IND (Culver, Queens line beyond Continental, Grand Concourse).
If we knew then what we know now, we'd have built the 2nd Avenue line instead of the 6th Avenue and the extra express tracks. As it is, we have unused express tracks, an excess of service west of 5th Avenue, and a desperate shortage of service east of 5th Avenue.
The only reason there are unused express tracks of the Queens line East of Briarwood / Van Wyke (the E train runs express until it branches off to Archer Ave) is only the F runs down to 179th and it has to run local. If you put another train down to 179th on the local track, the F could go back to full time express.
if that line had been extended to the Nassau border as originally planned (make it 2 tracks east of 179th) fewer riders would take express busses from Eastern Queens or opt for the LIRR and the line would run to a higher capacity. Of course, it would make travel less plesant for those who get on West of Union Tpke.
The G is heavily used on the Queens Blvd line as a local. Most of the passangers exit at Roosevelt and Queens Plaza, (the reverse is true in the evening) and few riders take it from Queens Plaza into Brooklyn. however, the train does fill up in Brooklyn and is fairly crowed by the time it gets to Hoyt/Schermerhorn.
There are very large crowds of people who take the G from Greenpoint into Queens to get the E/F and R lines. I wouldn't call the G a white elephant, but its lack of Manhattan access limits its usefulness.
[There are very large crowds of people who take the G from Greenpoint into Queens to get the E/F and R lines. I wouldn't call the G a white elephant, but its lack of Manhattan access limits its usefulness.]
Why not connect it to the B or the Q, now that they're coming to Queens Plaza, and maybe the underutilized Rutgers tunnel at the other end? Talk about white elephants--that should have been built down at Chambers Street, to handle both the business districts.
[There are very large crowds of people who take the G from Greenpoint into Queens to get the E/F and R lines. I wouldn't call the G a white elephant, but its lack of Manhattan access limits its usefulness.]
Why not connect it to the B or the Q, now that they're coming to Queens Plaza, and maybe the underutilized Rutgers tunnel at the other end? Talk about white elephants--that should have been built down at Chambers Street, to handle both the business districts.
The idea of the G going east when it merges with the Queens IND line is foolish and serves no purpose. They should build a connector allowing G Trains to go west into Manhattan when they merge with the Queens Line. That would make a lot more sense.
Which tunnel, 53rd or 60th Street. Aren't they already running at full capacity?
53rd yes, 60th no.
Months ago I suggested connecting the G line to the Steinway tunnels and converting the G to an IRT line, with the Flushing line being converted to a BMT line east of Queensboro Plaza. This would give G riders direct access to midtown.
Months ago I suggested connecting the G line to the Steinway tunnels and converting the G to an IRT line, with the Flushing line being converted to a BMT line east of Queensboro Plaza. This would give G riders direct access to midtown.
You can't make the G an A-Division line because it merges with, connects and shares tracks with the IND South B'klyn Line at its southern end. I think routing the G through the 53rd St. tunnel with the E and F into Manhattan is a better idea. It would take less planning, engineering and less money, than your Steinway Tunnel proposal.
I proposed making Hoyt St. the southern terminal.
I proposed making Hoyt St. the southern terminal.
That might work, but I don't think the TA would do it. Changing divisions is awful drastic; especially B-Division to A-Division. That would be like converting the Brighton Line to A-Division and routing Brighton trains through the Clark St. Tunnel, and up 7th Ave. in event of a Manny B closure. They should come up with a subway car built to A-Division specs that would have door sills that could be electronically extended while using B-Division trackage. They would also have to adapt the trucks for trip cocks on both sides. That way they could have a universal subway car that could operate in both divisions.
Back before WWII the west side was the desired side of Manhattan. The east side had the tenaments of the Lower East Side, the gaslight district (now Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village) and the stockyards (now the UN, though sometimes it's hard to tell the difference). You had to get up into the east 50s before there was much in the way of above-average housing, which is why all the subway lines were built on the west side.
The image of the east side changed rapidly after WWII, but by then, the era of major subway projects had passed.
If that's true, then why was the entire IRT system built to favor the East Side?
It wasn't. Contract 1 turned west at Grand Central and continued up the west side above 42nd St. For the stretch going south on Park Ave South (then Fourth Ave.) and Lafayette (Elm) streets, the problem was merchants on lower Broadway didn't want the disruption of subway construction back in 1901-04, so the Interborough routed around them, using the best available through route running from City Hall that did not have an el already built above it.
The area east of the Contract 1 line for the first few decades of the century, was far less desirable than the west side (there were some good pockets here and there, just like there were some bad ones on the west side), and if the IRT had its way back in 1901, Contract 1 would have never been as close to them as it was.
Thinking about the orignal question a different way, overnight service is a white elephant.
Think about Josh's critique of the LaGuardia extenstion (you could give everyone cab fare) and Paul's criteria -- cost vs. revenues. Midnight to six AM service stinks on both counts, but is kept because people without cars require mobility (or sort of kept -- service is so infrequent that it can barely be called service).
I still say the TA should rethink service in this period, and try to come up with a bus/subway system that provides maximum service at minimum cost. What we have isn't it.
Hell NO! I worked the 4PM to midnight shift for nearly 3 years, and there are hundreds of thousands of people who NEED subway service late at night. It's bad enough as it is. They should be considering increasing service, not cutting it or replacing it with busses.
What about 1:00 to 4:00 AM That might be the only segment that could be cut back but its only part of a shift for a crew anyway.
For every worker who worked the 8PM-midnight shift where I worked, there were just as many who worked a 1 AM to 9 AM shift. I never realized how many people needed subway service at night until I was actually one of them.
[For every worker who worked the 8PM-midnight shift where I worked, there were just as many who worked a 1 AM to 9 AM shift. I never realized how many people needed subway service at night until I was actually one of them.]
But whenever I ride the subways in the outskirts at such hours, there's almost no one on the train. Two, three people, 10 75 foot cars--it just doesn't make sense.
Try getting on a J train at Eastern Pkwy at 1 AM. It's as busy then as it is around 9 PM.
[Try getting on a J train at Eastern Pkwy at 1 AM. It's as busy then as it is around 9 PM.]
I'm sure there are locations that justify late night service. For example, it's now 11:15, and the traffic outside my window is proceeding at a crawl.
My point is that we should be tailoring service to actual demand and local needs. It's fabulously expensive to do otherwise, and I'd much rather see some of that money spent where it can do more good.
Just one of many arguments for reprivatization. The system as it is responds to politics rather than efficiency and demand.
A night train on the B division is 300 feet long and runs every 20 minutes.
A bus is 40 feet long.
10 busses (they're IRT width) would replace one train.
Now 2 minute service at night obviously won't happen, especially with the neccessary quintupling of staff (although that may be ameliorated by the fact that there would be no station agents).
While some lines deserve service 24/7, ALL OF THEM DO NOT!
You might be able to cut station staffing by instituting a `limited stop' schedule from midnight to 4 or 5 a.m. Trains would stop at only the express stops on trunk lines outside the midtown area, and at designated local stops (say, every fourth stop or so) on the lines in the outer areas of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx.
For this to work, though, the MTA would have to co-ordinate bus schedules to meet the passengers at the express stops, and then follow the line above ground, dropping off the passengers who would normally use the local stations.
You might be able to cut station staffing by instituting a `limited stop' schedule from midnight to 4 or 5 a.m. Trains would stop at only the express stops on trunk lines outside the midtown area, and at designated local stops (say, every fourth stop or so) on the lines in the outer areas of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx.
For this to work, though, the MTA would have to co-ordinate bus schedules to meet the passengers at the express stops, and then follow the line above ground, dropping off the passengers who would normally use the local stations.
That is a very complicated plan. I don't think the TA could make it work. It would be a fiasco.
What's with this sudden urge to screw late night subway riders? They already have to deal with skeleton service...
I'm not the one who came up with the proposal. I was replying to someone who did, saying it wouldn't work, that it would be a fiasco. I am not for cutting night service. Its been cut enough. Fact is, it's been cut too much. Just because Philadelphia is now shutting down its rapid transit lines at night doesn't mean we have to. It is a very dangerous concept to replace rapid transit service with bus service, even just late at night. If the TA sees that they can get along without train service, that bus service would suffice, they just may start closing some stations and some lines permanently.
I'm not for closing down any stations, I just said if you did, here's what I would do.
Closing stations at midnight and leaving people with up to a mile walk or stading outside for up to 40 minutes waiting for a bus, especially at this time of the year, would be a major disincentive to using mass transit.
Replacing the subways with busses would INCREASE service. It doesn't matter that the mode is different, that much night capacity is UNNECESSARY!
Tell that to a person who needs over 2 hours to get from Middle Village to Harlem at 2 AM every night.
Replacing the subways with busses would INCREASE service. It doesn't matter that the mode is different, that much night capacity is UNNECESSARY!
Yup! The B-54 sure increased service on Myrtle Ave., and the BX-55 sure increased service on 3rd Ave. What about the bus that replaced the Culver Shuttle, whose route number escapes me. You start replacing train service at night with bus service, and you will start seeing some permanent 24/7 changes. How would you like it if your line was replaced with a bus. You would have to change your SubTalk name to "Eugenius D. Bus". I guess I could call myself "BMT Surface Division". I waould rather see trains cut to 2 cars at night on half hour headways. Hey, during offbeat hours, you could wait one full hour for a bus. That can really be uncomfortable on a January night. All replacing night service with buses would do, is drive people into their cars at night, and why not?!! Traffic late at night is very light and taking your car all of a sudden becomes a very desirable option. There are plenty of cities across this county where the bus and/or transit system does not operate between midnight and 6 am. Is that what you would like to see the TA do? I have a car. It wouldn't bother me. What about the numerous people in the city that don't have cars.
The smaller busses would run on shorter headways. That's the main improvement.
Eugenius D. gets my concept, but no one else seems to.
Lets look at the Park Slope, Flatbush, Midwood, Sheepshead Bay corridor at 2 a.m. You are in Manhattan. You wait 15 to 20 minutes to board whatever train you are near down in a spooky empty UNMANNED station, get to a lonely transfer station, wait 15 to 20 minutes for the D, making all local stops, averaging less than 15 miles per hour. Or, if you are in Downtown Brooklyn, you can wait up to 30 minutes and board the B41. That's about the best you'll do. The B44 runs every 60 minutes, as do most Brooklyn buses that run at all. Isn't this the reality of late night service right now?
My solution, which I think would be cheaper AND better -- shut down the B division, and A division express tracks above Chambers, for maintenance from 12 to 6. You walk to an east side or west side IRT local (whichever is closer) running every 3 minutes or less -- short wait in the station, lots of people on the train. You get out at Borough Hall, where buses are waiting to leave every 10 minutes or less -- vans for areas of low demand. There are street vendors selling food and newspapers at this active spot all night long. There are others like it a Queensboro Plaza and in the Hub, as well as at 96th and Broadway in Manhattan.
You board a bus that goes down Flatbush and Ocean Avenues with limited stops, mirroring the Brighton. As you travel all the traffic lights are green -- because night owl buses have an override signal that changes the traffic lights between 12 a.m. and 6 a.m.n (in development). Average speed -- my guess is 20 miles per hour or more, including stops. Remember its the middle of the night, and traffic is light -- wouldn't work in the daytime.
In some corridors, you could have local and express connectin bus service. One bus could approximately mirror the F train from Downtown Brooklyn to Ocean Parkway and Church, while a second could run express on the Prospect Expressway before making stops on Ocean Parkway.
Imagine a whole network of buses radiating out from these four or five transfer points with frequent service, and perhaps the option of grabbing car service as well. That's what I'm talking about.
That might save a few bucks, but it'll make a nightime straphanger's commute a slow nightmare. I really don't think anyone in here has had to depend on the subway to get to/from work after midnight.
Running shorter trains on most lines might be acceptable. Use OPTO wherever possible (on lines that have cars with transverse cabs). Outside of that, any other attempt at cutting nightime service is totally unacceptable.
That might save a few bucks, but it'll make a nightime straphanger's commute a slow nightmare. I really don't think anyone in here has had to depend on the subway to get to/from work after midnight.
Running shorter trains on most lines might be acceptable. Use OPTO wherever possible (on lines that have cars with transverse cabs). Outside of that, any other attempt at cutting nightime service is totally unacceptable.
I totally agree with you. The idea of closing subway lines late at night and substituting bus service does not sit well with me. Hey, I don't even like the idea of closing the 42nd St. Shuttle at night. Also, you don't have to have unmanned statons. Late at night, that invites crime and vandalism. Even if the subway was closed at night, it would invite crime and vandalism. Think of how easy it would be for some sicko to drag a woman down into the subway when it is closed, and commit rape and murder, with nobody there to hear her screams. Hey, the same thing could happen if there's a strike, unless they have a cop at every station during a strike. If they would have a cop at every station while the subway is closed at night, they might as well keep it open and provide 24 hour service as usual.
[Think of how easy it would be for some sicko to drag a woman down into the subway when it is closed, and commit rape and murder, with nobody there to hear her screams. Hey, the same thing could happen if there's a strike, unless they have a cop at every station during a strike. If they would have a cop at every station while the subway is closed at night, they might as well keep it open and provide 24 hour service as usual.]
I *think* that every station entrance has a gate that can be locked to close off the station if necessary. Does anyone know for sure?
"That might save a few bucks, but it'll make a nightime straphanger's commute a slow nightmare."
How do you get that? Larry's proposal had the busses running faster and at a shorter headway. How is that a slow nightmare?
Busses cannot run as fast as subways. If you increased their headways, that'd defeat the purpose of cutting train service, with all those extra bus drivers needed.
(Buses cannot run as fast as subways)
Not if there is traffic. Not if they have to stop at stoplights. Not of there is a bus stop every two blocks.
But in the middle of the night, if the buses can over-ride the traffic signal (this technology is in the works), then buses can run as fast as subways. Unlike subways, they can skip stops with no one getting on or off.
(Having all those bus drivers defeats the purpose)
There would be a lot more bus drivers working, that's true. But you'd save on manning the stations (the MTA alternative is UNMANNED stations -- yikes). You'd save on vandalism -- if the station and tracks are closed motion sensors could detect intruders. The you'd save on crime. The homeless would have to shelter elsewhere. You'd save on power -- a bus with 30 people on it is more energy efficient than a train with 30 people on it. And unless you go all OPTO (and who wants to work alone on a train at 4 a.m.?) one bus driver saves over a T/O and conductor.
Busses, even at night, cannot run as fast as subways can. NYC is a city that runs 24 hours a day, and it's subway system should represent that. Absolutley no cut in late night train service can be justified, nor will it be accepted. I know too many people who rely on it.
They can rely on a bus at night just the same way. Nighttime subway service is wasteful. If you want nighttime subway service, then have the turnstiles programmed for the requisite higher fare, with no subsidies from taxes and daytime revenues. I don't want to pay for the waste.
They can rely on a bus at night just the same way. Nighttime subway service is wasteful. If you want nighttime subway service, then have the turnstiles programmed for the requisite higher fare, with no subsidies from taxes and daytime revenues. I don't want to pay for the waste.
Why not? There's plenty of other waste you're paying for. Don't ask me to name it, but you would be shocked to find out what the City wastes money on; what the State wastes money on; and what the Feds waste money on. When you do your tax return, isn't the City tax the least? Next is the State tax. The biggest chunk, and the one OUCH! that hurts the most is the Federal tax. If you break it down and figure how much you, as an individual would save annually by closing the subway from midnight to 6 am, you would laugh.
I'll bet a bus could outrun a train of R-68s (tongue held firmly in cheek) during the late hours.
If the TA sees that they can get along without train service, that bus service would suffice, they just may start closing some stations and some lines permanently.
Thank God the CTA would never try that in Chicago!
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[10 busses (they're IRT width) would replace one train.]
That assumes the trains are full. They aren't.
Where traffic allows, the TA should simply provide whichever service is cheapest, bus or train. Why waste money that could better be used elsewhere?
There are places where bus service should be eliminated, too, because trains fit the bill. Certainly once the system is automated it will be cheaper to run a train than a bus, if the tunne
[10 busses (they're IRT width) would replace one train.]
That assumes the trains are full. They aren't.
Where traffic allows, the TA should simply provide whichever service is cheapest, bus or train. Why waste money that could better be used elsewhere?
There are places where bus service should be eliminated, too, because trains fit the bill. Certainly once the system is automated it will be cheaper to run a train than a bus, if the tunnel already exits.
"[10 busses (they're IRT width) would replace one train.]
That assumes the trains are full. They aren't."
I was speaking capacity wise.
(Night service a white elephant)
Employers could just adjust their shifts around the new schedule. As infrequent as service is now, schedules should be timed for the bus or train. So they could just pretend service continued, but ran every six hours overnight. Not so different than today.
We've been through this before. Most people disagree with me, but it seems the attachment to 24/7 subway service is based on history, not analysis. To cut costs, you now have unmanned stations and infrequent service. Do you want to be standing alone on a dark platform for 20 minutes at 4 a.m.? No one I know would even consider riding underground after midnight.
I'd rather run a limited number of lines through the business districts with very frequent service. You'd walk farther, but wait less. My idea is th run the Flushing line from Times Square to Queensboro, the Lex local/express from Atlantic to Yankee Stadium, and the west side IRT local from Atlantic to 149th/the Hub. Trains would run every three minutes. With just a few lines, they'd be crowded, and with frequent service, there would be no waiting.
Then, you'd transfer to special buses at a few points where many others were doing the same. The buses would be given traffic signal over-ride during the overnight hours. Given that traffic is less on the street overnight, and subways only cover 15 miles per hour under the best of circumstances, the train/bus combination could easily beat what we have now. As it is, most of the bus system shuts down overnight while the train run.
Crime and vandalism would fall, and track work could be done with less risk of injury from passing trains. Heck, they all get rerouted anyway.
How about the way in in the middle of the night? As some pointed out, you'd be standing on a streetcorner, not boarding a train or bus with lots of other people and hopping off to go right home. But special night-owl routes could run up commercial streets. Special stops could be assigned to 24 hour restaurants or stores, or buses could accept street-hails at those locations, so you wouldn't have to wait at a desolate spot. The point is, the special overnight routes don't have to follow the daytime routes, although the transition would be difficult.
[The point is, the special overnight routes don't have to follow the daytime routes, although the transition would be difficult.]
For simplicity's sake, I think they should--buses following subway lines and stopping at subway stops, with clear signs pointing the way.
Why change anything? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Have you ever noticed that government services are the only thing that (generally) hasn't become better and cheaper. This city is too conservative. Now that we have Metrocard, does anyone want to go back to tokens and a flat $1.50 fare?
Now that we have Metrocard, does anyone want to go back to tokens and a flat $1.50 fare?
Lets go back to tokens and a flat 15¢ fare.
"Why change anything? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!"
If humanity had, through the ages followed that mantra, civilization would never have even come to exist.
How are you going to run busses on the Brighton, SeaBeach and Carnasie Lines, which do not run on main Streets. If you say for the Bighton run a bus On Flatbush and Ocean Ave, hey I live on E 9th St, why should I walk extra 6 blocks. to Ocean Ave, run the bus on CI Ave Instead, etc. No, keep the subway running 24/7, just run shorter trains. Who need 8-10 cars, 4 cars should be enough. The only people who will profit by closing the subway will be the cab drivers who get lost 2 blocks off of Broadway. Have them take you to Queens Brooklyn or the Bronx. Most of them can t even pronounce the name of the numberd streets let alone read them
Run the bus on Coney Island Avenue. If you're near Ocean and don't want to walk an additional 5.5 blocks, then take the B49.
You know, forget that, busses CAN run on East 15th and 16th Street, rerouting to other streets when necessary.
[Thinking about the orignal question a different way, overnight service is a white elephant.
Think about Josh's critique of the LaGuardia extenstion (you could give everyone cab fare) and Paul's criteria -- cost vs. revenues. Midnight to six AM service stinks on both counts, but is kept because people without cars require mobility (or sort of kept -- service is so infrequent that it can barely be called service).
I still say the TA should rethink service in this period, and try to come up with a bus/subway system that provides maximum service at minimum cost. What we have isn't it.]
True, but all the proposals to fix the problem were knocked down during the fiscal crisis.
It seems to me that we should offer limited stop bus service during those hours.
As always, if people had to pay the actual cost of the services they're using we'd see some very different patterns! How much does it cost to transport a passenger at night to the end of a line? Thirty dollars? Don't laugh, people--compare it to the unsubsidized cost of the average subway ride, maybe $3 or so, then consider the length of the ROW, the wear on the cars, and the ratio of passengers to staff compared to what it is on average--it would be cheaper to provide a limousine.
The way the IRT was designed, it sure did favor the East side. In Brooklyn, it was the East side lines that ran express, while the West side ran local. In the Bronx, it's the East Side #5 line than runs as an express, with the West Side #2 running local. Seems like IRT planners figured (correctly) that the East Side would be more important.
The Bronx services have nothing to do with planning 80 years ago. Either train can just as easily run express, so which one do you think would do so today?
In Brooklyn, what later became the Lexington Line was the original line in Brooklyn. The only way to build the Seventh Avenue connection was to build the tracks on the outside. Swapping them would require more work, and the IRT realized that it wouldn't be prudent to do so.
The east side line runs as the express in Brooklyn because the Journalmon Street tunnel was the first across the river to Atlantic Ave. And as I said earlier, the only way to get up from City Hall to Times Square in 1901 without using Broadway and without burrowing under the Sixth or Ninth Ave. els was the Elm Street-Fourth Ave. route.
The biggest positive with that route was both Union Square and Grand Central were desirable stops back then, but overall the west side was the preferred side of Manhattan until after World War II.
Also note, it seems to me that the East Side lines have fewer sharp curves than the West Side, thus allowing (theoretically) faster service. Especially between 14-Union and 42, and between 42 and 125 (and to 138 for the 4/5).
If that's true, then why was the entire IRT system built to favor the East Side?
Not true. The IRT serves both. We have the 7th Ave.-Broadway and Lenox Ave. lines serving the West Side, and the Lexington Ave. Line serving the East Side. I think your theory held true before the els were torn down, but not today. IRT service equally serves both.
Check the outer boro configuration of the IRT. Name me 1 line that has the West Side IRT running express, and the East side IRT running local. There isn't any.
Check the outer boro configuration of the IRT. Name me 1 line that has the West Side IRT running express, and the East side IRT running local. There isn't any.
How much time do you think is saved by a 5 Express vs a 2 Local in the Bronx? Also, that's not what is at issue here. We're talking about IRT service on the East Side vs. IRT service on the West Side, not the Bronx or Brooklyn. Many people who take the Brooklyn IRT into Manhattan probably transfer to other lines, once in Manhattan, anyway.
If you want to go beyond the IRT and consider B-Division also, the West side has more transit than the East Side does. All the East side has is the Lex. The West side has theBroadway BMT, 7th Ave. Broadway IRT, Lenox, 6/8th Ave. Wash. Hts., 6/8th Ave. Concourse.
And even in the late 1800s, the first els that were built were on the west side, because in the pre-airport, pre-tunnel, pre-bridge days of NYC, boats were the city's main connection with the rest of the U.S. and with Atlantic crossings to Europe. The main docking points were on the west side and outside of the Hell's Kitchen area, the better quality housing was on the west side. The majority of the rail lines just followed the money, while the east side took a back seat. By the time the east side was fashionable and the west side was deteriorating, they weren't building subway lines anymore.
Originally, New York's CBD was exclusively on Pearl Street. Broadway, and the west side of Downtown were the outlying residential areas. For a long time, until the development of the gridiron, The East River waterfront was the most important. In fact, landfill in the 18th century expanded Manhattan from Greenwich to West Streets, whereas it would be much later that the East Side could be extended to Water Street, Front Street and finally South Street.
Times change over the course of a couple of hundred years. The east side may have been favored in the 1700s (the British landing forces in the Revolutionary War certainly did like Kips Bay) but by the time the subways were first being built, the Lower East Side had become the place where many of the new immigants to American -- most of them impovrished -- called home. The area around the Bowery and Bleeker was pretty vicious, and the streets east of Second Ave. between 14th and 49th streets was mainly for industrial use or low-income housing. Who wants to live near a stockyard?
If the IRT, BMT or Mike Hylan and his IND people thought there was good cause or a strong financial motive to put a subway on the east side, they would have, and it would have been the Second Ave. el instead of the Sixth Ave. el that would have bee burrowed under to build a subway.
If the IRT, BMT or Mike Hylan and his IND people thought there was good cause or a strong financial motive to put a subway on the east side, they would have, and it would have been the Second Ave. el instead of the Sixth Ave. el that would have bee burrowed under to build a subway.
They didn't have to burrow under the 6th Ave. El to build the 6th Ave. subway. The city bought it from the IRT in 1938 and tore it down, so that they wouldn't have to worry about shoring the el up for the construction of the 6th Ave. subway. There was always a good reason to build a 2nd Ave. subway, especially once the tenements were torn down and the high-rise luxury buildings were built along 2nd and 3rd Avenues. The 2nd Ave. subway is just one of those fiascos that never got built. It was partially built in the 1970's, but the City had to abandon the project, fill the construction in with sand and repave the streets when the City was facing bankruptcy and didn't have the money to proceed.
Nothing was refilled with sand. What was built was finished and is still there.
The city and MTA will be facing bankrupcy again in a few years, they way Pataki and Giuliani are running up the debt in the middle of a boom. At least Giuliani is smart enough to try to get out of office before the bills come due.
[re 1970s work on the Second Avenue Subway]
[Nothing was refilled with sand. What was built was finished and is still there.]
One small segment around Ninth Street was filled in after the line was cancelled. I don't know why it wasn't retained like the three larger segments.
To think, the MTA now proposes a study, engineering, an EIS, and a small start to construction. Haven't we done that already?
What I don't understand is the MTA asking for $800 million to plan the proposed "stubway". Wasn't there already an approved plan in the 1970's? Why not just pick up where they left off in '75?
One small segment around Ninth Street was filled in after the line was cancelled. I don't know why it wasn't retained like the three larger segments.
Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Not all the construction was filled in, but part of it. They probably did this because the part that they filled in might not have been stable enough when constructon was halted to leave it intact. that's just my guess. It would still be easier to resume digging out sand, than blasting bedrock.
"Check the outer boro configuration of the IRT. Name me 1 line that has the West Side IRT running express, and the East side IRT running local. There isn't any."
We already discussed this, see another message by me.
Can't say I see a single post by you about this specific subject.
Read message 74191.
I think the G is a white elephant because it doesn't go to Manhattan. The neighborhoods it serves are dense. If it had been hooked in at both ends and run as a loop, it would be heavily used today.
Which is exactly the way the BRT and BMT wanted to build and run it. But when the City decided to build it on the taxpayer's nickel, market consideration went by the boards.
If we knew then what we know now, we'd have built the 2nd Avenue line instead of the 6th Avenue and the extra express tracks.
If we knew what we know now, we'd never have permitted the City to abandon both the 2nd and 3rd Avenue els.
Nor would they have allowed the Manhattan Bridge to be configured as it is.
The Dyre Avenue line is not up to potential because it doesn't serve Co-op City and the Bay Plaza shopping center directly. It could be rerouted under Gun Hill Road but that isn't likely soon. How about extending it (also underground, unfortunately for the budget-minded) to downtown Mount Vernon? Can the NYCTA, as an MTA entity, legally operate outside the city limits?
Also, on some elevated lines, there are too many stations too close together. I'm thinking in particular of the 2 train from 149th to 241st Street, but there are probably other examples. I believe the Chicago Transit Authority has opened new stations between two old ones so that the latter can be closed.
I often wonder why the MTA continues to operate both the BeverlEy Rd. and Cortelyou Rd. stations on the Brighton line. They are only 1 block apart. With the R68 serving them, I don't think the train can accelerate beyond 10 MPH before the train arrives at the next stop.
Other stations that could be closed:
Hewes St, J/M (very close to Marcy Ave.)
Intervale Ave. 2/5 (very close to Simpson St.)
I agree on the stations. The problem, as in Chicago, is that you can't just close one station without leaving some people two far away. You'd have to close two stations and open one between them. Bleeker and Spring on the #6 are a prime example. A single station at Houston, with entrances on either side of that street, would save a station, provide a reasonable walk, and provide an easy transfer.
Relatively speaking, it's easier to do that on an elevated system than in a subway, so while a station at Houston might be a more logical location today it's not remotely practical to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Houston seems the obvious spot now, but remember, the street wasn't widened to its current size east of Sixth Ave. until the Holland Tunnel was built in the late 1920s.
The Seventh Ave. local may have a Houston Street station, but when they built Contract 1 in 1904 Houston was no more special than Bleeker, Spring or Prince streets. and the seven-block gap between Bleeker and Astor Place probably seemed about right to the IRT's designers.
Intervale Avenue is the only station between 149th St. and Tremont Ave. that has a cross-under between uptown and downtown platforms. However, Simpson St. seems to have had an elevator installed recently to make it ADA-compliant. I guess both stations will be there for the time being.
[Also, on some elevated lines, there are too many stations too close together. I'm thinking in particular of the 2 train from 149th to 241st Street, but there are probably other examples. I believe the Chicago Transit Authority has opened new stations between two old ones so that the latter can be closed.]
We should have skip stop service in all outlying areas. It's faster and it increases throughput.
[If we knew then what we know now, we'd have built the 2nd Avenue line instead of the 6th Avenue and the extra express tracks. As it is, we have unused express tracks, an excess of service west of 5th Avenue, and a desperate shortage of service east of 5th Avenue.]
In all fairness, the plan always was to replace the els with a Second Avenue line.
I think we need the 6th Avenue line above 4th Street, if not for capacity for proximity to the Midtown business district. The Broadway line, with a weird slashing path which closely parallels other lines in many places, seems to me the one we shouldn't have built.
I think we need the 6th Avenue line above 4th Street, if not for capacity for proximity to the Midtown business district. The Broadway line, with a weird slashing path which closely parallels other lines in many places, seems to me the one we shouldn't have built.
The Broadway BMT was built at a time when the competing 6th Ave. El was run by the competing IRT. The BMT Broadway line was already there when the City decided to tear down the 6th Ave. El and build the 6th Ave. subway.
You must remember that most of today's subway system was not centrally planned. They were built as competing lines. This is why some areas seem to have an excess of subway service (downtown Brooklyn, a major destination and population center earlier this century) and certain areas have none (Flatlands, southeastern Queens, most of which wasnt populated extensively). The IND designers tried to bring service to areas that didn't have any (like the Queens Blvd. line, the Crosstown line), but even it's plans were affected by an obsession to bankrupt the competing private lines. Several of today's IND lines were built either directly along, or near other lines, in a blatant attempt to destroy another line (like the Fulton St line, the Concourse line, etc.). No wonder that today's subway map looks ridiculous.
All true, although the 1929 "Second System" would have alleviated much of this. Southeastern Queens would have received a bunch of new lines. It would have been the first time that IND routes were planned in areas without any subway service at all.
Then came the Depression .....
--Mark
Is it neccessary to continue to have the Jerome and Concourse line duplicate one another?
Is it neccessary to continue to have the Jerome and Concourse line duplicate one another?
That is precisely why the IND Concourse line was built -- to take riders away from the IRT. They did the same thing building the 8th Ave. subway so close to the 9th Ave. El, and building the Fulton St. subway right under the El. That was all part of the City's plan to drive the BMT and IRT out of business, so the City could achieve unification. Nobody sees it, but the IND Queens line was probably built to take riders away from the Flushing line. The Queens line looks like a needed expansion (which it was), but I'd be willing to bet that the motive in the 1920's when it was planned was to take revenue away from the Flushing IRT and BMT. The G Crosstown line was built for the same purpose - to take away riders fron the BMT Myrtle and Lex lines in Brooklyn.
I'm talking about NOW. Is it necessary to run both lines today?
I'm talking about NOW. Is it necessary to run both lines today?
I don't know the facts. I don't have statistics on ridership and revenue for the 2 lines. Why, do you want the Jerome Ave. line torn down? I certainly don't. I hope that the TA never does, either. That's all you've been talking about lately is cutting service. You suggested replacing subways with buses at night, and now suggesting that they eliminate the Jerome Ave. line. That's exactly what the statement "Is it necessary to run both lines today?" means.
I don't know about you, but I'm not for getting rid of any rail lines. I think too much has been gotten rid of already. I'm for adding more rail lines.
I'm asking this question for Phase III of the station announcements. I could run the 4 someplace else, although I haven't made up a line for it (The Third Avenue line is the 5).
The problem with the Concourse and Jerome Avenue line is like the problem with stations that are two close -- if you just close one, some people are too far away. Specifically, if you close the Jerome Avenue line, those on University Avenue and that whole extra dense hill are too far away.
Perhaps in the year 2090, the Jerome Avenue El will be replaced by a subway on Unversity. Then you'd have good spacing between trains, and a subway on top of every hill.
"Perhaps in the year 2090, the Jerome Avenue El will be replaced by a subway on Unversity. Then you'd have good spacing between trains, and a subway on top of every hill."
Perhaps I should add this plan to my Station Announcements III?
Next question: Which subway line should I extend into Westchester County and to where should I run it?
1/9 from 242/Broadway
4 from Woodlawn (or wherever)
D from 205/Bainbridge
2/5 from 241/White Plains (or wherever)
Q from Dyre Avenue
or
V from Co-op City
Also, what are the merits of building more than the two stops I already proposed in Nassau County?
You must remember that most of today's subway system was not centrally planned. They were built as competing lines. This is why some areas seem to have an excess of subway service (downtown Brooklyn, a major destination and population center earlier this century) and certain areas have none (Flatlands, southeastern Queens, most of which wasnt populated extensively). The IND designers tried to bring service to areas that didn't have any (like the Queens Blvd. line, the Crosstown line), but even it's plans were affected by an obsession to bankrupt the competing private lines. Several of today's IND lines were built either directly along, or near other lines, in a blatant attempt to destroy another line (like the Fulton St line, the Concourse line, etc.). No wonder that today's subway map looks ridiculous.
Of course the rapid transit system wasn't centrally planned. Even the BMT wasn't centrally planned. All the lines in the Eastern and Southern Division that we know today were separate railroads that all came under BRT ownership later. No, the entire rapid transit system grew separately and evolved with the City.
Chris, I just thought about something. You seem to be replying to my posts as if I said all of what's on there, only to really be replying to what the person before me stated. On my posts, everytning in italics is what the previous person posted that I am replying to. When I read a post, I copy and paste, and put in italics what that person posted and then I reply to it. I do this so that someone reading my post could see what I'm replying to without having to click and go to another page, and then come back again. Some people put this info in brackets. I put it in italics.
I'm not the person who said I think we need the 6th Avenue line above 4th Street, if not for capacity for proximity to the Midtown business district. The Broadway line, with a weird slashing path which closely parallels other lines in many places, seems to me the one we shouldn't have built. That is what I was replying to when I stated The Broadway BMT was built at a time when the competing 6th Ave. El was run by the competing IRT. The BMT Broadway line was already there when the City decided to tear down the 6th Ave. El and build the 6th Ave. subway.
I understand that the italic writing on your posts are other people's comments you've cut and pasted. I'd do the same, but I'm too lazy.
I understand that the italic writing on your posts are other people's comments you've cut and pasted. I'd do the same, but I'm too lazy.
Its just that it seems that you're actually responding to the post that I'm responding to, and not mine, yet you use my post to do it. It just makes things a bit confusing. I need to know if you're speaking to me, or the person that I was speaking to. If you're speaking to someone else about their post, then please use theirs to respond.
I always respond directly to the comment the poster made, not the copied comment from a previous post. I don't understand your confusion.
I always respond directly to the comment the poster made, not the copied comment from a previous post. I don't understand your confusion.
Josh Hill wrote:
I think we need the 6th Avenue line above 4th Street, if not for capacity for proximity to the Midtown business district. The Broadway line, with a weird slashing path which closely parallels other lines in many places, seems to me the one we shouldn't have built.
I replied:
The Broadway BMT was built at a time when the competing 6th Ave. El was run by the competing IRT. The BMT Broadway line was already there when the City decided to tear down the 6th Ave. El and build the 6th Ave. subway.
You replied to me:
You must remember that most of today's subway system was not centrally planned. They were built as competing lines. This is why some areas seem to have an excess of subway service (downtown Brooklyn, a major destination and population center earlier this century) and certain areas have none (Flatlands, southeastern Queens, most of which wasnt populated extensively). The IND designers tried to bring service to areas that didn't have any (like the Queens Blvd. line, the Crosstown line), but even it's plans were affected by an obsession to bankrupt the competing private lines. Several of today's IND lines were built either directly along, or near other lines, in a blatant attempt to destroy another line (like the Fulton St line, the Concourse line, etc.). No wonder that today's subway map looks ridiculous.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
If that was a reply to me, then you are insinuating that I thought that the subway system was centrally planned, when I was trying to correct Josh on that one. I know that the subway system wasn't centrally planned. You insult my intelligence. I started studying the history of the New York City Transit System before you were born, kiddo! I know my subway history. I don't need some kid telling me what I don't know. You're a TA employee? Big #%#&*^! That doesn't make you God! You have your nerve telling me "You must remember that most of today's subway system was not centrally planned." The only thing I "must remember" is that noone messes with me and noone bullies me. If you can't respond to my posts with something constructive, then don't respond at all. You've been attacking me and what I have to say for some time. I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt, thinking I've been misreading your hostility toward me. Tonight, by telling me "I always respond directly to the comment the poster made, not the copied comment from a previous post.", you told me that I was right. I wasn't misreading you. You never met me. You don't know me, yet you can't stand me. You don't have to like me, but enough of your attacks and cheap shots. Enough of your caustic attitude. That's not what this board is here for. I'll tell you the truth. With all the potshots that people have been taking at each other on this board, if I was running SubTalk, I'd threaten to shut it down if all this hostility didn't stop. The truth is that I'm not going away, and you're not going away. Lets not let this turn into a real mudslinging slugfest.
I was merely reinforcing what you stated. Again, I don't understand the confusion.
I was merely reinforcing what you stated. Again, I don't understand the confusion.
mmm hmm, mmm hmm. Yeah, right! Don't play the innocent angelic Eddie Haskel with me. You're always looking to provoke something whenever you answer my posts. If you were reinforcing what I stated, why didn't you say so, instead of trying to make me appear to know very little about the subject? Don't try to snow me. I can sense the hostility from you. Isn't it something, that you're the only one on all of SubTalk that I sense this from. Even though I get into some heated debates with others, I don't sense hostility from anyone else.
[If that was a reply to me, then you are insinuating that I thought that the subway system was centrally planned, when I was trying to correct Josh on that one. I know that the subway system wasn't centrally planned.]
As do I (though I didn't know the specific history of the construction of the 6th Avenue subway). The impression I had of this thread was that it wasn't about history, but rather about which lines are the most unnecessary now.
The impression I had of this thread was that it wasn't about history, but rather about which lines are the most unnecessary now.
The only reason why the Broadway Line seems unnecessary is due to the lack of service on it. They routed everything up 6th Ave. that was once routed up Broadway. When they close the north trackis on the Manny B, Broadway will be more important than 6th Ave. Then the entire southern Division (less the Culver) will again be routed up Broadway.
From
[The only reason why the Broadway Line seems unnecessary is due to the lack of service on it. They routed everything up 6th Ave. that was once routed up Broadway. When they close the north trackis on the Manny B, Broadway will be more important than 6th Ave. Then the entire southern Division (less the Culver) will again be routed up Broadway]
Sorry about that, I meant to say something about the quote but managed to post it by accident. It's from the FRA's report,
"Reducing Subway Overcrowding at the Manhattan CBD Cordons - Vol. 1: The Queens Cordon."
Problem is, even with express service running, people from Queens don't use the Broadway line, because it requires a tranfer from the express. The authors of the report express puzzlement at the fact that people don't change from the overcrowded E&F lines at Queens Plaza, and seem to overlook the fact that anyone who has a seat is going to stay there, that people who are standing in a very crowded car aren't going to change trains just to move to a somewhat less crowded car, and that its route is basically the antithesis of anything someone from Queens would *want* to use--you have to zig all the way across town before zagging back to the East, it manages to skirt much of the midtown business district, and its route downtown is also indirect and requires a clumsy transfer to a local train.
Don't quite know what you can do about that--use it as a superexpress and airport line, build the Rockaway line, etc.--there are lots of things you can *do,* but none seem compelling.
The G was way overbuilt for the need. Arguments that it was a key part of a super-duper "Second System" fall short.
And in its planning years, for a while, it would have been 4 tracks instead of the current 2!
--Mark
Just some thoughts just to be devil's advocate:
I keep on reading in this forum about how the "GG" is a needless line to nowhere. However the very same posters have in the past lamented the tearing down of the Myrtle Av El. Doesn't both lines sort of parallel each other going from downtown Bklyn Northeast into Queens? I know they aren't too close but they basically go in the same direction.
Its not a needless line to nowhere. Ride it between Greenpoint Ave and Hoyt Schimerhorn in the morning rush. It gets very crowded. It also is heavily used on the Queens Blvd. portion as a local to Roosevelt and Queens Plaza.
I admit the crowd between Queens Plaza and Greenpoint Blvd is lite, but hey, you can't have everything.
[I keep on reading in this forum about how the "GG" is a needless line to nowhere. However the very same posters have in the past lamented the tearing down of the Myrtle Av El. Doesn't both lines sort of parallel each other going from downtown Bklyn Northeast into Queens? I know they aren't too close but they basically go in the same direction.]
The Myrtle Avenue El was not at all superfluous or needless back when the Brooklyn Navy Yard employed tens of thousands of people. When the Navy Yard closed down in the early 1960s, the El lost its main reason for being and it closed down itself within a few years. While there were other reasons for its closure, notably its inability to accomodate most rolling stock, it was more or less doomed once it lost the Navy Yard ridership. Although the G indeed runs roughly in parallel with the Myrtle Avenue El, it's quite a bit farther away from the Navy Yard.
Loss of Navy Yard ridership is also why York Street on the F is so little-used.
I keep on reading in this forum about how the "GG" is a needless line to nowhere. However the very same posters have in the past lamented the tearing down of the Myrtle Av El. Doesn't both lines sort of parallel each other going from downtown Bklyn Northeast into Queens? I know they aren't too close but they basically go in the same direction.
The IND Crosstown line was designed to take riders and revenue away from the BMT. The Crosstown line closely paralleld both the Myrtle Ave El and the Lexington Ave. El. The whole purpose for the IND subway was to choke both the BMT and IRT and force bankruptcy, so the City could take them over and unify the system. Look at the duplication:
8 Ave--9 Ave
Concourse--Jerome Ave
Fulton St--Fulton St
Crosstown--Myrtle and Lex
6th Ave was taken without having to be squeezed out.
Lets not forget that the IND was Hylan's baby, even though he didn't live long enough to see it open. We all know how Hylan felt about the BMT. He had no love for the IRT either.
"After posting a message about the new JFK-Jamaica transit link I got to thinking what is the biggest "white elephant" line currently in revenue service? Let's stick to rapid transit."
I'd say the Bronx Zoo Monorail, but I don't remember if they keep the elephants along the route.
The LAMTA Red Line is a white elephant, still very few people ride it
The TA in another money saving move has closed the 50st Tower and placed the interlocking on automatic (T/O Know Your Line Up!!). So why didn't they close the 5th Ave side??
I have seen more RTO Supervisors at the tower since it has been closed then when the tower was in just Rush Hour Operation. This sit in the chair, when a D/B arrives late, they run out with pad in hand. "Why are you late??" then back into the tower. They igonore the Customer that who used to get help by knocking on the tower door.
Great Image guys!
The 5th Ave tower wasn't closed because there are no route request boxes on any interlocking signals.At 50st and 57th-6Ave, there are route request boxes at the appropriate car markers.
Okay Okay, thank you the slow order entering Newkirk is gone, guess the leaves on the trackbed won't blow up on the rails and TA has made a RULE that no more leaves will fall on the tracks.
BUT
What is this SAT sign??
A green lettered on white sign S A T which I forgot what it stands for, T is for TrainControl I think A was Awareness. Who got paid half a million to think up of this saftey sign?? Do you think it will work?
If I remember correctly, it's:
Safety
Attentiveness
Train Control
And, by the way, someone ought to TELL the Train Operators that the slow speed order has been lifted. This morning the T/O on my Q train brought his slant-40 to a crawl at the top of the hill. He could have come to a complete stop without getting any part of his train into the Newkirk Avenue station, if he'd wanted to.
David
I notice more and more Subtalkers posting threads all night long including the "wee hours of the morning" as Sinatra once sang.
It must be good!!!
I notice more and more Subtalkers posting threads all night long including the "wee hours of the morning" as Sinatra once sang.
It must be good!!!
After about 2 am, the board really flies. That's because there are far fewer people on the site. Click and there's no delay time.
It's also reflective of the hours I'm putting in at work - home late, wife and son need my time, eventually I get to the board in the wee hours, then catch three hours sleep and start over :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am in Hawaii so My post are New York Time. Hawaii is 5 hours behind. It is 8.30PM now, or 1.30 AM your time.
dont forget the western time zone sub talkers too !!!!
dont forget the western time zone sub talkers too !!!!
Your best time would be 5-8 am. On the East Coast, its 2-5 am. After that, it starts slowing down again.
please join
---
http://egroups.com/list/NYCBUSNEWS
Thanks
Steve
NYCBUSNEWS@egroups.com
please join
---
http://www.egroups.com/list/NYCBUSNEWS
Thanks
Steve
NYCBUSNEWS@egroups.com
Join my Newsgroup and Check New Items for today
Steve
Why did the N express trains make the 49 Street/7 Avenue stop from September 1990 until the Manhattan Bridge closed again (and has remained closed since)?
Probably because usage of the 49th Street station dictated more than just service by the R train. As this station is only 1 block west of Rockefeller Center, it's used pretty heavily by people headed there from Astoria.
Actually, the Broadway local was underserved big time during this short period of time. R service alone wasn't enough.
An electronic sign above one of the escalators at Lexington Avenue on the N/R platform read "Escalator is for Passengers Only".
My question is: Who else would be using the escalator besides the passengers changing trains or exiting the station??? Are the employees prohibited from using that escalator???
Probably, it means that strollers, luggage, etc should he taken on the stairs.
It means that escalators are not to be used to move strollers, large packages, or provide amusement for children.
I think it means that the escalator is off limits to everyone, since in the current newspeak we are customers not passengers.
That's not as bad as the sign all over the city "NO STANDING-BUS STOP". If you can't stand how can you wait for the bus?
That's not as bad as the sign all over the city "NO STANDING-BUS STOP". If you can't stand how can you wait for the bus?
"No Standing" means vehicular traffic, not pedestrians. "Standing" according to driving rules means having your vehicle in park or neutral with the engine running while you're seated behind the wheel; as opposed to "parking", which means having your engine off, whether you're sitting in the car or not. It is illegal to have your vehicle "standing" at a bus stop because you're creating a traffic and safety hazard. If a cop catches you standing at a bus stop, it's a ticket for sure.
And you answered that with a straight face, I bet!!! Now does anyone know why we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway??
And you answered that with a straight face, I bet!!!
Yes I did. For those who never drove a car, they probably don't know what "No Standing" means. So I thought I'd explain it.
Now does anyone know why we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway??
Good question!
More good questions are:
How do you take a walk?
How do you take a shower?
How do you give a s--t?
These are just some things that we accept as part of our American English language.
My wife, a born-and-bred Yankee who loves the South as much as I do, still hasn't gotten the hang of our Southern English either. The one that really gets her is when I tell her I'm going to "carry Miss Martha [our elderly neighbor up the road]" to the store. For one thing, she hasn't been "Miss" for eighty years, but what gets my wife is "carry". Or when someone asks if we "stay" out by the lake - I'll answer yes, of course, but she'll insist on rephrasing it so they know we "live" near the lake.
One of these days we'll have to learn y'all how to talk :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My wife, a born-and-bred Yankee who loves the South as much as I do, still hasn't gotten the hang of our Southern English either. The one that really gets her is when I tell her I'm going to "carry Miss Martha [our elderly neighbor up the road]" to the store. For one thing, she hasn't been "Miss" for eighty years, but what gets my wife is "carry". Or when someone asks if we "stay" out by the lake - I'll answer yes, of course, but she'll insist on rephrasing it so they know we "live" near the lake.
One of these days we'll have to learn y'all how to talk :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My wife is from the Midwest. Every time she asks me if she could "see" my pen, I take it out of my pocket, hold it up and say "see?" We've been married 7 years, and she still doesn't know me better! In Noo Yawk, we dont ask to see somebody's pen. We ask "Could I use your pen?", or "Let me borrow your pen."
[My wife is from the Midwest. Every time she asks me if she could "see" my pen, I take it out of my pocket, hold it up and say "see?" We've been married 7 years, and she still doesn't know me better!
In Noo Yawk, we dont ask to see somebody's pen. We ask "Could I use your pen?", or "Let me borrow your pen."]
If she had spent time in both the Midwest and the South, she might ask to "see your ink pen."
If she had spent time in both the Midwest and the South, she might ask to "see your ink pen."
I've heard her say that too. She's not even from the Southern Midwest. My wife is from Michigan.
Because Parkways are named for the leafy type of park, which they either traverse or create a linear version of. Driveways were not meant to be parked on, they are the road from the main road to the garage or parking spot. If your driveway dead ends without a garage, then it's not REALLY a driveway.
Because Parkways are named for the leafy type of park, which they either traverse or create a linear version of. Driveways were not meant to be parked on, they are the road from the main road to the garage or parking spot. If your driveway dead ends without a garage, then it's not REALLY a driveway.
If its not a driveway, what would you call it?
Also, what about people who don't have a garage, but a "circular driveway" (yes, that's what they call them) in front of their house?
That's a driveway, leading to the front door, either way, not for parking. I would call the pseudo-driveway a driveway. That's just the way it's come to be.
That's a driveway, leading to the front door, either way, not for parking. I would call the pseudo-driveway a driveway. That's just the way it's come to be.
A lot of people refer to any rapid transit as the "subway", even if its above ground. I've never been to California, but is the "Freeway" really free? If they charge a toll, its not really a freeway. Unless a "highway" is on a viaduct, its not really a highway. Catwalks are not for cats, they're for people. People don't go to a restroom to rest. Do "watches" "tell" time? Only the electronic "talking" ones do. With the rest, you have to read the time.
I doubt that highway has anything to with viaducts as the word is in excess of 8 centuries old.
As for freeways, the term is used everywhere except for the Northeast and Chicago to describe a Controlled Access Highway. Even though I have spent large amounts of time perusing the Rand McNally, I have never seen a tolled tollway.
And lastly, I believe that the word restroom comes from the same root as Restaurant, which means relief, and a bahroom provides relief. So does what we call rest.
How about your nose runs and feet smell
How about your nose runs and feet smell
Yeah! I like that one. But when your nose is running, you usually can't smell anything, so you don't really know if your feet smell. There are times when having a cold can be such a blessing. Taking the B or N over Coney Island Creek is one. Walking down urine-stained subway corridors is another.
This means I can stop jogging in place at bus stops???
Oh Wow Thank you!!!
This means I can stop jogging in place at bus stops???
Oh Wow Thank you!!!
You can keep jogging. Its good exercise.
12/12/99
Getting back on topic, there were two signs I photographed that were obvious gaffs in the TA sign department.
1) Street entrance for (1),(2) & (3) (no #9 then) at 7th Ave. and 33rd St. New NYCTA Black porcelain sign with white letters and numbers to replace old IRT ones. "Penn Station,LIRR and CONRAIL' !!
Conrail was already out of the commuter rail business.
2)34th St Broadway BMT station signs. Once again new White on black porcelain signs. "34th Street , Madison Square Garden and PCRR (Penn Central Railroad)!! Penn Central was before Conrail!!
I'm glad I have photographic proof of these two gaffs. They have been replaced with the correct ones.
OFF TOPIC: Why do we call it a side walk?? It's usually in front of the house. Nobody calls it a front or concrete walk!
Bill Newkirk
>>
OFF TOPIC: Why do we call it a side walk?? It's usually in front of the house. Nobody calls it a front or concrete walk!
In front of the house, but on the side of the street?
One great sign (an obvious mistake) that I loved but unfortunately since replaced was the street sign at Springfield Blvd & 58th Av by Cardozo HS. One side side rightly said Springfield Blvd but the reverse said Clearview Expressway which was about a mile away.
12/12/99
Street sign gaff #2:
A block from where I lived many moonies ago on the corner of Ocean and Foster Avenues was the first white and green street sign incorrectly spelled "FORSTER". Got a picture of that, it has been corrected.
Bill Newkirk
Sidewalk A walkway on the side of the street
Getting back on topic, there were two signs I photographed that were obvious gaffs in the TA sign department.
1) Street entrance for (1),(2) & (3) (no #9 then) at 7th Ave. and 33rd St. New NYCTA Black porcelain sign with white letters and numbers to replace old IRT ones. "Penn Station,LIRR and CONRAIL' !!
Conrail was already out of the commuter rail business.
2)34th St Broadway BMT station signs. Once again new White on black porcelain signs. "34th Street , Madison Square Garden and PCRR (Penn Central Railroad)!! Penn Central was before Conrail!!
I'm glad I have photographic proof of these two gaffs. They have been replaced with the correct ones.
If you see any contemporary signs directing people to any of the Els that were torn down in the 40's, let me know! In an effort to replace all the old signs with a uniform contemporary type, I guess these errors were overlooked. Those giving the instructions were ignorant of the changes. They probably don't know that the Berlin Wall came down either. The signmakers just follow instructions. Even if they know there's an error, I guess its not for them to point out. Their job is to make the signs as instructed. Its like when you go to a print shop to have something printed, say a brochure or something. Their job is not to spellcheck. They will do the job just as you instructed, errors and all. I guess it was the same with the new signs. Its a good thing you took pix of all those. They are rare now. You could add them to your "Subway Follies" collection. Hey, that's a good idea for a Web Site!
OFF TOPIC: Why do we call it a side walk?? It's usually in front of the house. Nobody calls it a front or concrete walk!
They call it a sidewalk because it is on the side in relation to the road or street.
Why do we call a computer a computer? We don't do any computing on these things. We use calculators for that.
Has anyone looked to see if it is Beverly or Beverley Road Yet?
My question would be: Does the escalator actually work? If so, then worry about the sign. If it's out of service/broken, don't worry, you'll have at least another 2 years before you'll be faced with the decision.
This Saturday I was planning to go in to the city. I've always wanted to travel on the new double decker trains. Does anyone know on Saturday if there are any DD's going through Hicksville to Penn?
Or vise versa?
Thanks.......................
I'm pretty sure there are no double deckers that go to Penn Station on weekends. If I'm reading the timetables on the MTA website correctly, there are some diesel trains (probably, but not necessarily double deckers) that originate from Port Jefferson, stop at Hicksville and go to Jamaica where you'll have to transer to get to Penn Station. They leave Hicksville at 10:13AM, 1:13PM and 4:13PM.
I'd like to visit the Newark Trolleys, while still using PCC's. Does anyone have railfanning suggestions??
thanx, Dave
The line is real short, you can ride it several times in a trip. Plus, with the new ticket system I believe your ticket remains valid for a couple hours, you may be able to do hop-off/hop-on trips on one fare. Definitely stop at Orange St. and at the Franklin loop. Visit our Newark Subway page for some photo stop ideas.
-Dave
We did the trip last summer. Sorry you missed it.
Sorry to say this, as Orange Street station was "our stop" as I was growing up, but if you're going to get off there, don't wander too far away. It ain't Avalon. I recommend getting off at Park Avenue and walking east a few blocks to Sacred Heart Cathedral, which is a blast to check out no matter what religion, if any, you subscribe to. My favorite station is Davenport Avenue, an open-air station tucked between a working-class neighborhood and Branch Brook Park. Enjoy.
I for one am always interested in a little sightseeing being included in a rail/bus trip, but I think the Orange Street stop was from the prospective of a Railfan, i.e. photo ops because the line comes up to the street there, then goes back in the cut after.
Mr t__:^)
12/10/99
Dave Barraza,
Watch out! Until further notice , the PCC's don't run on weekENDS. They run weekDAYS. I'm not sure about holidays. They're still working on the weekends which is substituted by buses. Maybe someone here may have the NJT wep page site adress?
Bill Newkirk
Watch out! Until further notice , the PCC's don't run on weekENDS. They run weekDAYS. I'm not sure about holidays. They're still working on the weekends which is substituted by buses. Maybe someone here may have the NJT wep page site adress?
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/
12/09/99
Bill Newkirk (me) needs help. I would like to contact the publisher of New Electric Railway Journel. As some of us know , this publication had some problems with the original publisher and was sold to another publisher, there was one issue about the New York city subway system that I had. I turned this place upside down and inside out and can't find it. I was thinking of contacting NERJ to acquire a back issue.
If anybody can help me , I would appreciate it. Please E-mail me or if you wish , answer my post.
Thanks,
Bill Newkirk
The fellow in Chicago who took it over died some time back and no one has taken up the project again. I think many of us have unexpired portions of subscriptions. One of the Chicago people (Jim K?) might be able to provide some more up-to-date information.
I have really missed the television program, but the Free Congress Foundation decided its priorities would be political rather than social, so that was stopped when publication moved to Chicago, and never revived. I wonder if all the tapes are available anywhere.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Over the past weeks, I've seen some comments that the MTA doesn't really train people well. There is a rule book and Command Center, but what about the 1 in a 1000 or 1 in a 1,000,000 situation that happened in the IRT tubes a couple of years ago that we were talking about yesterday. Now the Sarge can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Police Department has officers go through some sort of stress testing involving whether to draw a gun when confronted with an ambiguous situation. There's that split second determination of whether someone is confronting you with a gun or not, and I recall that the department has the men exposed to these situations. Steve FDNY can correct me if I am wrong, but I remember from years ago reading the Fire Departments monthly bulletin, where a chief will discuss the handling of a fire and what lessons there are to be learned. Or a engine company or ladder will study buildings or simulate major emergency situations. So what?
Does the train operator's job call for some kind of training in how to handle a nightmare that confronted the crew of the train that got caught in that smoke condition? Was there an analysis of lessons to be learned from that incident? Do they provide workers with an opportunity to learn from stress testing kinds of situations? Are crews trained to keep an eye out for the nearest emergency exit, or to make a mental note of where they are relative to the nearest station. Does the MTA give crews information about the effect of smoke on the human body? If a train does get caught in a smoke situation, do crews know whether to turn on or off ventilation systems, whether to tell passengers to get low to the floor.
Should passengers feel safe with the current level of preparedness? Do the crews feel safe with the current level?
[Does the train operator's job call for some kind of training in how to handle a nightmare that confronted the crew of the train that got caught in that smoke condition? Was there an analysis of lessons to be learned from that incident? Do they provide workers with an opportunity to learn from stress testing kinds of situations? Are crews trained to keep an eye out for the nearest emergency exit, or to make a mental note of where they are relative to the nearest station. Does the MTA give crews information about the effect of smoke on the human body? If a train does get caught in a smoke situation, do crews know whether to turn on or off ventilation systems, whether to tell passengers to get low to the floor.]
I don't know for sure, but there is no question that the training periods for conductors and T/Os have been shortened considerably in recent years. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if safety-related training has been reduced in the process.
As a CR, I was shown how to operate an emergency exit, and, in a 5 minute talk, given the basics on crowd control and evacuation procedures. Of course, it was implied that in an emergency, I and the TO are NOT ALLOWED to panic ourselves, and this would stop all the customers from panicing (really amazing, isn't it).
As a TO, we had one day at Fire Training Safety School, where we talked about the effects of smoke, got to use a fire extinguisher to put out a fire, and, in a simulator, practiced evacuating a train in a tunnel in dense smoke. Of course, the people we were evacuating were our fellow TOs, so they were a well-behaved crowd.
How well any of this will work in a true emergency is anyone's guess. I have never seen a listing of where all the emergency exits are, although I do try to keep an eye out for them, but that's just me (and 12 years of working in dark theatres. Come to think of it, I probably had more training for evacuating the public out of a building than I'll ever have here). Frankly, unless your train had an experienced crew and a handful of customers willing to help, more people will get hurt from the panic than the emergency. Since we all know how well the riding public listens to us on a daily basis, would they listen in an emergency? Would anyone actually try to help us?
Best Train crew advice to the riding public in a smokey tunnel fire: get on the PA instruct the passengers to bend over, grab their ankles and kiss their a-- goodbye (this is within acceptable MTA Emergency Operational Guidelines).
Just being the usual Wisenhiemer ;-)
Hey Doug, spread out. I thought I was the Website Clown.
Just to counter your lightness, I'd like to repeat
again here what a motorman on a train I was on
said, as we were passing through a smoke
condition. He said "Don't worry folks, I'm going to get you through this." And he did. I doubt whether that was in the MTA manual, but he really spoke to my fears. He said he would take care of us.
Alex interested me by speaking of the train
operator's own sense of panic, which probably would be considerable since he would be more acutely aware of the situation.
That's providing the customers could "interpret" the announcement on the train!
Today at work, I was going through some files with some old documents that I was in the process of sorting for saving/trashing.
A very intriguing one that I saved is called "An Assessment of the Transit Service Potential of Inactive Railroad Rights-of-Way and Yards". It was issued by the Department of City Planning of the Mayor's Office under David Dinkins (maybe he actually did something of value?) in October of 1991.
It's a thick tome, but I read some things that interested me right away. Such as a number of proposals for the re-use of the Bay Ridge LIRR tracks (including a plan similar to what's been posted about the expansion of the IRT at Flatbush Ave.).
And there were also proposals for re-instating some form of service over the defunct LIRR Evergreen & Rockaway branhces. Every borough of the City was given coverage. And the report is thorough: one section actually mentions the old Canarsie trolley ROW and it's potential(!?) The Report's analysis is that the old Canarsie ROW is no longer available as structures now exists on the former property and that what is left is little more than of historic significance (don't I know it!).
The report has little in the way of photographs (there are a few maps), but the text is vast. I may get around to scanning some of the more important pages so that they could get up on the web.
I'll keep you posted on the progress.
Doug
A few car numbers in my blacklist are as follows:
404, 420 and 4496
Just curious to see how far this goes...
My blacklist includes 9307-9345, 3934-3937, 3594, 3595, 3880, 3881, 3892 and 3893.
Anti-Fan aren't you? You would not have enjoyed living many years ago when all you had to rely on was the fan. I think the big fans in a unit like the D-Types gave some air, but the homestyle fans in the R10? ARGH!!!! Forget about it! Consider this: the BUs didn't have fans, and all you had to rely on was the open window, which never seems to fail. In the early 1900s, you didn't have deodorant, so 90 degree situations led to pretty STINKY situations. Anyone know when man invented deodorant???
-Stef
Anti-Fan aren't you? You would not have enjoyed living many years ago when all you had to rely on was the fan. I think the big fans in a unit like the D-Types gave some air, but the homestyle fans in the R10? ARGH!!!! Forget about it! Consider this: the BUs didn't have fans, and all you had to rely on was the open window, which never seems to fail. In the early 1900s, you didn't have deodorant, so 90 degree situations led to pretty STINKY situations. Anyone know when man invented deodorant???
-Stef
It wouldn't surprise me if deoderant was invented by someone riding the El on a hot August day!
Put a creaking, groaning, half-hour-late "F" train of mixed R-6s and R-7s at Lexington Avenue, sprinkle in about 300 people per car, add a motorman hell bent on doing 60MPH through the tube, toss in weather in the low-to-mid 90s and top it off with a passenger loudly losing his lunch at the other end of the car!
Such was my unfortunate lot aboard R-6-1 #1277 (Yep, the one immortalized by Blue Oyster Cult in "Hot Rails To Hell") on September 11, 1973. I never quite got over THAT one. PS I was not the one who came down with the heaves - but I DID wind up with my face in someone's armpit. Not a very pleasant experience. NOBODY seemed to be able to get off OR on at 23rd-Ely and at Queens Pza there was a genreral bail-out/pile-on with much pushing, shoving, cursing, swearing &c.
Wayne
I don't "blacklist" any particular car, per se. I.E. I don't associate car numbers with historical dates in my life, whether they be good or bad. I do, however, keep a Master Numbers Book - the current one is #7 - and any time there is a wreck involving a fatality, I draw a red square around the car number and draw a black cross next to it (i.e. 1437, 1440, 4461). I also draw red squares around wrecks NOT involving fatalities, these I place a red "X" next to (i.e. 5282, 4260, 1435, 1909, 4427-4428). Cars damaged by fire get a red-orange square, with a red-orange "X" (i.e. 9152-9153; 5319, 5283). Cars scrapped from current fleets not due to collision, or withdrawn from revenue service to serve as parts cars get a lighter orange square with an "X" (i.e. 3934-3935; 3007-3008-3009). Cars in work service get a yellow square with a "W" next to it (i.e. 8885). Cars which have been renumbered: the OLD number gets a green square and the new number gets an asterisk next to it with a footnote elsewhere on the page describing the renumeration (i.e. 3659/3348).
"Odd Couples" get a superscript numeral next to the units in the pair (i.e. 344418, 377718), with the superscript numeral referring to the position (in the order in which I spotted them) in the Odd Couples List on that particular page.
Wayne
When first delivered, there were cars that were sporting the #2 route in its front signs...
Were there any R62/R62A cars running on the #2 prior to 1990?
Have you recently seen any R62/R62A cars running on the #2? I have heard that if they actually do, they might happen to borrow cars from #3 (9 car units) or #5 (10 car units, in groups of five).
The #2 line was used for testing of the new equipment back in the mid 80s. The R62s/62As rarely make any kind of appearances on the 2. The only cases I can recall of R62/62As being on the 2 is when the line has a shortage of cars available. During the 239th St Yard Lead Accident last Ferbruary, there was no equipment travelling in or out of the yard. Various cars from other lines had to fill in, including R62As from the 3 Line.
-Stef
I rode an R62 two weeks ago in november. like the R142, its the only one model on that line along side the redbirds. since then,I haven't seen though.
The R-142 is not yet in service.
I observed that during middays some #3 R62A trains deadheaded to E180 Street Yard. Is it for layup reasons?
Chaohwa
3 Trains don't deadhead to E180th St Yard. Actually, these trains head up to 239th St Yard to get washed (the Car Wash is here). 4 Trains also come this way, and an occasional 1/9 will appear also.
A bit of trivia: Can anyone name the locations of all Car Washes?
-Stef
There is one at Jamaica Yard
OK here the list of Yards that there is 7 Car Washer for Subway Cars.
#1. 239th Street Yard
#2. Westchester Yard
#3. Corona Yard
#4. 207th Street Yard
#5. Concourse Yard
#6. Jamaica Yard
#7. Canarsie Yard
Peace Out
David Meaney
Coney Island Yard also has a car washer.
Chaohwa
OOOP i forget about Coney Island Yard that make it 8 car washer
Peace Out
David Meaney
PS Anybody got a book call Tracks of the New York City Subway (Second Edition)? The book got everything & i enjoy reading
Yeah!!! You win the ultimate prize - a day on an R62!!!!
One addition, you forgot Coney Island Yard.
Cheers,
Stef
I also saw some #4 R62 trains get washed at Concourse Yard. I think when Concourse Yard washing machine is not available, some of #4 trains move to 239 Street Yard for car wash.
Corona Yard also has a washing facility.
Does 240 Street Yard have a washing facility? If not, maybe this is part of the reason why I saw several #9 trains on the Bronx el of #2/#5.
Chaohwa
240th St Yard does not have a car wash.
-Stef
If you see a R-62 on the #2 line it is most likly the ones the #5 line borrows from the #6 line for OPTO service.
Not long ago, there was a posting about the B train running on the N tracks and a response noted this may be due to resignaling work on the West End line. What is resignaling and why is it done?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
They are replacing the signal system on the B line. It dates back to 1917, and it's time for it to go.
If I remember correctly, some of the signal heads on the West End elevated were not "one piece" affairs, but of three separate sections bolted together (ex: traffic signals).
Why day do dis ?
Extra components sitting in storage (use 'em up instead of ordering new)?
Was the West End signalled
- from day one ?
- or much later than the other southern division lines ?
12/12/99
A note about the resignaling on this line to all us photographers. I noticed that 25th Ave. platform southbound, south end steel work for a possible relay room now appearing blocking a good curve location for photography. Also, the south bound platform south end of Bay Parkway, another relay room going up there blocking another photographers view.
Remember the classic Fresh Pond Rd. station (north end), the favorites for decades and popular for fan trips? RELAY ROOM!, totally blocking any view. Is there any connection to the relay room and disappearing railfan window? Or just coincidence,
Bill Newkirk
A note about the resignaling on this line to all us photographers. I noticed that 25th Ave. platform southbound, south end steel work for a possible relay room now appearing blocking a good curve location for photography. Also, the south bound platform south end of Bay Parkway, another relay room going up there blocking another photographers view.
Remember the classic Fresh Pond Rd. station (north end), the favorites for decades and popular for fan trips? RELAY ROOM!, totally blocking any view. Is there any connection to the relay room and disappearing railfan window? Or just coincidence,
Both are a conspiracy to thwart railfans. Another is the steel mesh dididers between the express and local tracks on both sides, traversing the entire Sea Beach line. They really know how to ruin railfan photo opportunities.
I've also noticed these ugly structures placed in the middle of the Jamaica Ave. el. Any thoughts to putting in an express track in the future are now moot.
Especially as the strike deadline draws near. We have a system built as competing systems. As a unified system, that's wasteful. As a de-unified system, that allows competition, innovation, and choice. Here is the plan.
Tracks and signals. Organized as a separate MTA organization, funded by tax dollars just like state roads and interstates to which they are equivalent (operating agencies would pay for the power). This organization would get the toll surplus.
Station maintenence -- turned over to local government, paid for by tax dollars, commercial rents, advertizing revenues. Stations increase the value of property, and should be paid for by property taxes. Coroporate "naming rights" would probably fund much of the cost of the stations on the new 2nd Avenue Line.
Revenues: run by an MTA agency, for a fee off the top. Revenues would be divided between operating companies according to counts taken by turnstiles which in many cases would be placed between them. If a passenger transfered between operating companies, they would split the fare. Weekly and monthly card revenues would be apportioned based on how often each company's service was used.
Heavy overhaul shops -- the two would become separate, and would compete for business from the operating companies, which would run the regular yards.
Operating companies: could be MTA subsidiaries, private companies, or employee (TWU) owned companies. They would have to break even on an "auto-equivalent basis": the fare would cover the purchase, maintenance, and operation of the cars. They would also install and supply power on the lines they use. There could be four:
SNB (Snobway): based on a FRA equivalent 4 track 2nd Avenue subway, it would operate express-bus priced premium services, including those on over-running commuter rail tracks within the city. It would include the Jamaica, through Lower Manhattan, to Grand Central express the Lower Manhattan Access Study wants to bring suburban commuters downtown. This line would extend through Southeast Queens on a captured LIRR route with stops added. This service would pass through a new Atlatnic Avenue tunnel shared by the Brighton Line, also switched to SNB service, which would add a stop at Court Street (Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill). Snobway service in the Bronx would extend along the Amtrack ROW to City Island. In Queens, it would also incorporate the Port Washington Line (with added stops at Elmhurst, Woodside, etc) connecitng to the 2nd Avenue via the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. Finally, the SNB would include a direct service to JFK airport over the Rockway Branch. The SNB could also include a line along the west side to Penn Station.
IRT: long proposed improvements in Brooklyn would be made. Turning over the Brighton to the SNB would isolate many moderate income people west of Ocean Parkway from regular subway service. So Franklin junction would be rebuilt to increase capacity, and the Nostrand Avenue line would be extended, as originally proposed, to provide an alternative.
IND: Would include the orignial IND, plus either the West End or Sea Beach would be converted to IND service. 36th and Pacific Street stations would be rebuilt so the IND and BMT trains would not share platforms, and transfers between the two could be recorded by turnstiles. The Rutgers/DeKalb connection would be built, and the IND would get A/B tracks on the bridge (which it would not need much of the time).
BMT: the remaining routes, with the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (which it would not need much of the time) and the Montigue, 14th Street, and 60th St tunnel. In my view, the BMT should get the LaGuardia line, which could be extended to Flushing to provide more competition for the IRT and SNB.
Here is a system that solves all the problems we discuss. The East Side crush would be relieved -- for those willing to pay. The long travel times from the outskirts would be reduced -- for those willing to pay. The rest of us would not have to pay more to fund those improvements. The Manhattan Bridge would become excess. The Taylor Law could be replaced with one that allows strikes, but requires contracts to expire 3 months apart. And, the requirement that ALL operating companies break even on an auto-equivalent basis could be easily met by those within the city -- even with substantial raises -- but would present an interesting challege to MetroNorth and the LIRR.
And, since it sucks up to the affluent by giving them separate system, they might even be willing to pay for it! If a private company were willing to build and operate the SNB (for X times the subway fare), it might be able to fund much of the capital cost, since it would not be ripped off the way the MTA is.
Okay, here are the questions:
If three seperate subway systems is such a good idea, why were they unified to start with?
Is splitting everything up in this way going to cause more 'bloat' at MTA, funded by us?
Is there any way to force NYC to keep the stations clean, or will this become a deferred maintainance item and be dealt with on an as-needed basis?
Knowing the wonderful ability of turnstile jumpers and impatient New Yorkers, how do you really keep an accurate count of usage on each system?
What watchdog agency do you put in to watch MTA Revenue so that it doesn't cheat on fare division (because you know it will and even if it doesn't, the three systems will say it does)?
Would the IRT need to negotiate trackage rights to enable Flushing trains to get to a Heavy Overhaul Shop? If not how do interchanges work? Or do you give the Flushing Line to BMT?
Right now, if a train suffers a problem, service behind it can be re-routed along other tracks, so that everyone doesn't have to suffer. This plan will likely throw this ability out the window, since I don't see the BMT letting an IND train mess up with its schedule. What happens in this kind of event?
Do you really, truly believe that the citizens of New York will actually allow you to build ANY of these improvements in anything approaching the near future - say like inside of the next century? If so, I'll be willing to sell you that excess bridge of yours.
Would a private company, whether employee-owned or not, really want to take on the hassles of moving people around this city when it has no control over pricing, expansion of product line, etc?
I'm guessing here, but MaBSTOA and NYCT Bus are probably also seperate operating companies, correct? In which case can we in Staten Island leave? You've still only given us buses to get around with.
If MTA Track & Signals is tax-funded, and they will probably end up being the group responsible for system improvements, how does the SNB not cost the person who doesn't use it anything?
Since the Taylor Law applies to ALL city employess in essential services, will you be splitting up Police, Fire, Medical and Education in some similiar way? Or just re-write the law to exempt transit workers?
Okay, here are the questions:
If three seperate subway systems is such a good idea, why were they unified to start with?
This is the most critical of all the questions.
I could write an article or perhaps even a medium-sized book on the subject, but for here I'll encapsulate the answer:
Politics and governmental hubris.
Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I have two questions, which I will also offer short answers to:
Q. Since most of the system has been in government hands for six decades, what would be the objective of de-unification today?
A. Competition and the hope of entrepreneural innovation.
Q. Is de-unification possible?
A. Almost certainly not. The physical problems of the breakup would pale next to the navigation of NYC politics. Even if a viable plan could be hammered out initially it would be an unworkable mess by the time the "concerns" of every pressure group in the City were taken into account.
But I'd like to leave this with one thought: we on this forum have chewed over the question of why the Second Avenue Subway wasn't built. Many good answers have been proposed that reveal part of the answer. But one element that been left out of the discussion: if the BMT (and its management style) were still around today, there is no way they would stand still for the IRT Lexington Avenue Line having a monopoly on east side rapid transit. The BMT would be using every advocacy, business and political connection it had to get a BMT line opened on the east side and into the heart of the Bronx to tap this lucrative market.
I would agree that the BMT had some excellent ideas back in the 1920's that they never went ahead with because there was a NYC mayor whose name I do not recall at the moment who was anti BMT and helped to have started the Independent Subway System (IND) which had also included plans for a Second Ave. subway line. I also think that someone should dismantle the bureacracy that is known as the TA because all they do is waste money, put forth bad ideas and if they have any good ideas the city government manages to kill them off anyway because of lack of funds of they have to find a way to line their pockets. I think the entire subway system should be privatized and maybe it would work much better because you do not have bureaucrats running it.
Hey Jeff: Do you have a relative that used to be an elementary school teacher-----a grandmother, great aunt, aunt, or some relative? Her maiden name was Brodie. She was my first teacher at PS1 Queens in the fall of 1945. I'd love to hear from you on that.
Yup, there would be problems. But think of the situation now. The service we get it decided in Albany, with no alternative. And we are facing a strike to the entire system at once.
Personally, I find the idea of being able to hop on my local IND, or walk down Prospect Avenue to the competing BMT, or walk up Prospect Park West to the competing IRT, or (if I'm feeling flush) walk across Prospect Park to the SNB to be a wonderful dream. I do that now, of course, but you get the same 50 year old signals and slow trip times everywhere. And, you'll get the same strike.
As for the workers, seems like some of them would like a choice of who to work for. Four employee-owned companies duking it would have happier workers. Can't get any worse. Maybe our buddy Steve would be the president of one of the lines. Not likely in the current political context.
Stations and lines? A fixed and equal amount of tax renevues would be paid to maintain them, but the four operating companies (who would have an incentive to do a good job) would do the work.
Re-routes? How easy is it to reroute from the commuter railroads to the subway, or to the IRT to the BMT now? Even the B division is not all that integrated. The city would own the tracks, and the state would fund and control them -- no trackage rights required.
MTA cheating on the farebox? Just what is happening with those dedicated tax and toll revenues now? I smell an outflow.
My answer to this is the same as to school voucher objections. We currently have a government-funded health care voucher program for the elderly (Medicare/Medicaid), with the services provided by the competing providors (some private, some public, some non-profit) and full customer choice. Why not require all the elderly to us a single government health care agency?
Larry, I read this all with some mirth. Here in the Bay Arfea, we have periodic public rants FOR unification. We have many agencies competing for funding-each wasting salaries on top heavy management, AND often lousy service. I am sad to suggest that human nature--greed, sloth etc. will tend to override whatever system is created dragging the mess backwards. I have little personal investment in either the one or the many operating entities, but I absolutely agree on the idea of separate conbtracts expiring at different times. (However I should note that during the BART-subway- strike two years back, the bus agency in the East Bay publicly announced it would not add any extra service
(worker discipline?). So much for competing agencies
But aren't all the rapid transit agencies in the Bay Area government run? That would be the same as splitting the MTA up into a smaller sub-agencies without changing the sub-structure, which would work about as well as the post-1968 decentralization program did in improving New York City schools.
Wasn't there a long teachers' strike in the beginning of the first school year of the decerebralized, oops, I mean decentralized school system?
Ah yes, the wonderful Ocean Hill-Brownsville "teachers action" in the Fall of 1968, which set the tone for race relations in the city back about 30 years. The school district there was predominantly black and wanted the teachers in the district ro reflect the community. That didn't sit well with UFT president Albert Shanker, (let alone the fact most of the teachers who would have lost their jobs were Jewish) and a majority of the UFT members walked out until the city came around (in most places classes were still held in the younger grades with regular teachers -- we had classes in a church next to the school for the duration of the walkout).
In the end, the teachers kept their jobs, and city came up with their decentralization plan to satisfy the community boards. It didn't do anything to improve things for the kids in the schools, but it helped keep Lindsay in office for another four years.
"In the end, the teachers kept their jobs, and city came up with their decentralization plan to satisfy the community boards."
I thought decentralization occured BEFORE the strike and was it's cause. If the schools were not yet decentralized, then how did the district in Brownsville have the authority to hire/fire teachers?
Decentralization was pushed at the start of the 1968 school year and Shanker said if it goes in the UFT goes out. It did, and they did.
The compromise gave teachers more job security, but maintained the basic structure of the district system we know and love today.
The walkout also came in-between the 1967 and 1969 teachers strikes, so a lot of us grew up thinking school hardly ever began the first Monday after Labor Day in September.
There is a difference between school decentalization and de-unification as I propose it. Under decentralization, each local school board was a monopoly. They got paid whether the kids learned or not, because the kids had no choice but to go to their schools.
Under de-unification, there would be enough overlap that if service was bad enough, people would go out of their way to avoid subway lines with bad service. Plus, we wouldn't have a monopoly in a position to threaten us like this.
My point was that unless you give the workers some incentive to make the system work (productivity bonuses, employee stock option plans if the MTA contracts with private firms to run the system) you would just be splitting one inefficent public agency into a group of inefficent public or quasi-public agencies.
Under that situation, if there was no more accountability than there is now, you could have the situation were one or two of the new divisions are run well, but the third division is run so poorly they have to come back and ask for a fare increase, and those in charge use some "our division is is a unique situation" excuse.
An IRT system that charges $1.50 per fare and an IND-BMT system than charges $1.75 definitely would not work.
What will the LIRR do during a subway & bus strike if it occurs next week.
Will service continue into Penn ?
Will stations in Brooklyn & Queens be closed to prevent the LIRR from being used as a "subway" ?
If they do go into Penn are the trains mobbed at Jamaica and Penn ?
Will express trains which normally bypass Jamaica be required to stop there ?
What prevents the LIRR from getting overrunned at Jamaica ? (All those E/F riders will try to use it)
Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
[What will the LIRR do during a subway & bus strike if it occurs next week.]
Here is what I believe to be the case:
[Will service continue into Penn?]
Yes.
[Will stations in Brooklyn & Queens be closed to prevent the LIRR from being used as a "subway"?]
Not that I've heard. But see below for Jamaica.
[If they do go into Penn are the trains mobbed at Jamaica and Penn?]
Most likely yes (though that's largely true already).
[Will express trains which normally bypass Jamaica be required to stop there?]
No.
[What prevents the LIRR from getting overrunned at Jamaica ? (All those E/F riders will try to use it)]
I don't know. More LIRR people might be deployed to platform duty. I suppose if things get really bad, to the point that safety is threatened, entrances to Jamaica might be closed off and the station used for LIRR transfers only.
NJT will try to add trains and buses but is limited to NY Penn. PATH will add trains and run direct World Trade Center to 33rd Service.
)The trains will run to Exchange place and then to Pavonia and 33rd.)
In today's Star Ledger NJT was quoted as saying "stay home".
Peter,
Is this what happened during the 1980 (?) strike or have you heard any announcements related to this ?
Regards.
[Is this what happened during the 1980 (?) strike or have you heard any announcements related to this?]
I have no idea what happened during the 1980 strike. I'm assuming that there won't be any major changes to LIRR service because nothing has yet been announced. If there were plans for any changes, such as more (or fewer) trains stopping at Jamaica, I'd expect we would have heard of them by now. As far as closing Jamaica to boarding passengers is concerned, I would say that's the sort of thing that might be made necessary by safety concerns.
The DOT "private" buses will also probally operate, however since all these folks are AFL/CIO affilates the TWU may ask for SUPPORT. So the cops will need to be at depots (rail/bus) should a TA TWU worker show up with a sign. The problem is that he/she will be EXPECTED by the members their. It will get very messy after a few days ....
Mr t__:^)
I remember that in the strike of '66 the only private bus company that ran was Green Bus Lines because they were in a different union and didn't honor TWU ( Mike Quill's) picket lines. Q-60 ran into Manhattan if you could get on one. The lines snaked around 60th, 1st ave,61st and 2nd Ave with people trying to get on.
Thurston, is this going to happen or will GBL also go out ???
(Don't know it this should be on B-T or not )
I think Green is IAM ... at least it begins with a "I". They're AFL/CIO but not TWU. Same thing amoung the airlines, some but not all are TWU.
The TWU here didn't get the "support" they wanted during their negotiations with the City from the TWU brothers. Don't know how much of a grudge they're holding ... we'll have to wait and see.
Mr t__:^)
Here's a question. To be able to "picket" do you need a sign? If you do, is there a requirement to how large it must be? Must the word "strike" appear on the sign? If you want to form a "picket line" do you need more than one person? Is there some minimum number required? If a bus or LIRR train comes to a "picket line" composed of only one person or a bunch of people with out signs can they/should they honor it.
- TWA stewardess were striking a few years back and sent ONE of their members over to the Pan Am maint. facility. The first machanic to arrive joined her on the line, then the second & so on. Pan Am shut down that day.
- As Teamster on strike one year a FEW of us were at the main gate. A truck would come up and want to go in ... we would talk to them. One parked his truck & crossed the line so he could call in & say that he couldn't deliver to Pan Am ... we watched the truck while he was calling so no one messed with it.
If there were more of us there the Port Auth. cops would have probally come up & made us move away from the road to the hanger, but they were busy with lots of folks marching at the terminal.
================================================================
As mngt. durring another strike we ENJOYED the opportunity to get dirty, i.e. Foreman were fixing planes, others were receiving parts, I was at a hangar issuing parts & also had to go get them from the stock room. At the end of the strike I had a load of parts and was chased accross the hanger by some union officials. That was fun ... I was glad my elect. vehicle was faster then their legs.
Mr t__:^)
My wife rides Queens Surface's Q34 to work every day, and her driver says that even though his union is not threatening to strike, he and is fellow drivers would feel compelled not to cross a picket line. Are we to interpret this to mean that striking MTA workers would picket outside the garages of DOT franchised private bus companies such as Queens, Triboro, Green, Jamaica et al? Could there be sabotage of equipment? I could just see an epidemic of broken rails on the LIRR. (During one past LIRR strike, there seemed to be a lot of broken rails in the subway system. Coincidence? You decide!)
The worst thing the TWU could do is sabotage ! A rash of "Road Calls" is one thing but causing physical damage will realy get mngt. mad & just make it that much HARDER for Willie to get a good package.
You can bet that the DOT "privates", LIRR, NJTransit, etc. are thinking about the posibility of this (sympathy stopage). Please don't ID what time you took our Q34 because I don't want to be able to figure out who the drive is (I'm in mngt. after all).
All I think I can say about the effect of a strike here is that we're trying to get every bus OUT of maint. & ready for service. That could mean a few free rides because we have more buses than fareboxes.
Disclaimer: This is not an official statement by NYC-DOT, or the company for which I work.
Mr t__:^)
I think in the strike of 1980 the LIRR trains termiated at Jamaica on the first day as a show of support.
Expresses running local, locals running express. The downtown 2 train I was on switched to the local track before chambers. I thought "good, one train ride to work (South Ferry)" The conductor announced that the train was going to SF. At chambers the people in the dispatch office were yelling at people to get off the train, last stop. Meanwhile some crazy guy is screaming "Trainsit Strike T minus 9 days."
It is very rare that a 2 train will ever make a stop in passenger service at South Ferry. What was probably intended was to make the last stop Chambers St, loop the train back to Chambers St NB and go back in service to the Bronx, probably due to a problem somewhere in Brooklyn causing delays in NB 2 & 3 service. If it were a new CR, all he knew was that the train was going to South Ferry, since that's the only place the local track can go. These problems usually result from poor communication between train crews and Control. As for the crazy guy, don't listen to him - its ACTUALLY 5 days.
Back in the late days of the Brooklyn Rapid Transit, Chairman William S. Menden conducted something called the "Brighton Ballot". Supposedly, there was some issue that would have affected the BRT's Brighton Line (subway) and Utica Ave line (trolley) riders.
What was this all about?
--Mark
The following info is from the indispensible "A History of the New York City Subway System" by Cunningham and DeHart.
On August 30, 1923, 33,990 ballots were handed out to Brighton line riders between Parkside Avenue and Ocean Parkway. Two plans were offered:
PLAN 1 (Proposed)
BRIGHTON EXPRESS - From Times Square express to Manhattan Bridge, then express to Brighton.
BRIGHTON LOCAL - From 57 st, local to Montague St Tunnel, then local to Coney.
PLAN 2 (in operation since August 1, 1920)
BRIGHTON EXPRESS - From 57 St, Broadway local to Montague St Tunnel, then express to Kings Highway.
BRIGHTON LOCAL - From Times Square, express to Manhattan Bridge, then Brighton local to Coney.
On August 31 the ballots were returned. PLAN 1 - 12,605 votes; PLAN 2 - 9,149 votes; Void - 268 votes. PLAN 1 won by 3,184 votes and was announced for October 1 1923
I'm wrapping up my first MAJOR revision to the "Capsule History of the IND" article posted at this site. For one thing, I'm dropping the word "capsule". I hope to have it done as a holiday present to the site, meaning the end of the month, but I have a box full of articles to run through between 1978 and the present.
I have some questions:
In all the sources I've looked at that mention Mayor McKee (Mayor of the City of New York in the early '30s), not one of them that I looked at mentioned his FIRST name! (Weird coincidence, I guess). Anyone know Mayor McKee's FIRST name?
David J. Greenberger (I hope I got his name right) posted to SubTalk a few months ago a summary of a report written by a Major Philip Mathews entitled "Proposed Plan for Subway Relief and Expansion", dated 12/24/1926. This report was a response to the Board of Transportation's initial plan for the Independent. Mr. Greenberger's summary of the report mentioned that Philip's Brooklyn-Queens crosstown line proposal was planned as 4 tracks (eventually it was built as two), but it also would have been designed for extension to Staten Island. Anyone know of any details of this extension to Staten Island?
Could someone refresh my memory regarding the closure of the 2nd Ave EL? What part of the 2nd Ave EL closed because of Unification - was it the section from the Queensborough Bridge to 129th St? And the lower portion from South Ferry to and across the Queensborough Bridge closed June 13th, 1942 - is that right?
The JFK Express started running on September 23rd, 1978. When did it stop running?
The Aqueduct Special start running in the Fall of 1959. Anyone know the exact date? When did it run for the last time?
The Miss Subways program began in May of 1941. Anyone have an exact date that it started, and when did it end? Sometime in the late 1960s?
Regarding transit strikes, the first was June 14th, 1956. The next major strike was Jan 1st, 1966, followed by the one in 1980. Was the date of the last one April 1st, 1980? Were there any other strikes of "major" importance that I may have missed?
--Mark
The Miss Subways program ran well into the 1970's. Probably in '74 or 75 it ended, even though I don't know the exact date.
The 1980 strike was on April 1st. It occurred on the first day of Passover. There have been several strike threats since, but none of them ever materialized. it would take a miracle for there not to be a strike next week.
Re: a Miracle to prevent the Strike- Rudy is starting to sound JUST like Lindsay right before the '66 strike-lecturing on both parties 'moral obligations'...uh-ohhhh!!
If you want to count the private companies; there was,of course the 1918 BRT strike.And the Interborough suffered a pretty massive strike in I believe '24.....But those were more 'organizing' strikes more than anything else...
The JFK Express ended service on April 14 or 15, 1990. It was Easter weekend at any rate.
Aqueduct Specials stopped running in 1981. The 42nd St. lower level has not been used since then.
Mark: The Second Avenue El was closed from 60 Street to 129 Street on June 11,1940 and from Queens Plaza to Chatham Square on June 13,1942.
The JFK Express ran from September 23,1978 to April 15,1990.
The Aqueduct Special began on September 14,1959 and ran until at least March 16,1981 during the racing season of course. It did not run when the racetrack reopened on October 14,1981. I can't say if there was any operation between March 16 and October 14,1981.
Larry,RedbirdR33
According to Joseph Cunbningham and Leonard O. DeHart's book "A History of the New York City Subway System Part 1: The Manhattan Els and the and the IRT", The 2nd Ave. El from 59th St. to 129th St. closed at Midnight, June 11, 1940. The 9th Ave. El from South Ferry to 155th St. was closed simultaneously. The 2nd Ave. El from Chatham Sq. to Queensboro Plaza was closed on June 12, 1942. The last train left South Ferry at 9:41 pm and arrived at Astoria at 10:16 pm. The full name of Mayor McKee was Joseph V. Mckee. See http://politicalgraveyard.com/geo/NY/ofc9.html The Political Graveyard-New York Mayors. According to the web site, he was the candidate that LaGuardia defeated. I wish I could get you the answers to all the other questions, but unfortunately, I can't. If you need any other information out of my IRT book by Cunningham and DeHart, let me know.
Was he the man after whom McKee High School in Staten Island is named?
Was he the man after whom McKee High School in Staten Island is named?
If its Joseph V. McKee, yes.
Thanks everybody!
--Mark
The other day when I was comming back from work thru Newark Penn (I work at Newark Intl. Airport)I decided to help this traveler get to the Path from the Bus lanes at Newark Penn. Anyway While I was up there I Noticed a Amtrak AEM pulling only 3 cars and the last one seemed to me to be a cab car. My two questions are:
1. How many cab cars does Amtrak possess?
2. Where in the NEC would they be used?
Thanks
I saw these cab cars on:
(1) Vermonter
(2) MARC trains.
Chaohwa
Amtrak does have cab cars, they are used out west on the San Diagns and Midwest on the Milwalkee trains. They used to use them on Harrisburg service before they cut back (those were converted Metroliners). When Amtrak ran the Atlantic City line it was one F40 and a cab car. Most cab cars are used on the disel service. It is unusal to see one with the AEM7 since AME7's are double ended and just require a run around but Harisburg service had that.
Amtrak does use ex-Metroliner cab cars on the Northeast Corridor on the 'Vermonter' trains. I saw this train heading northbound through Stratford, CT several weeks ago, and the cab car was the first car behind the AEM7 locomotive. These cars are necessary on the Vermonter because the train actually travels backwards in 'push-pull' fashion between Springfield, MA and Palmer, MA on the CSX Boston Line. The cab car allows Amtrak to avoid engine change delays at these locations.
- Jim (RailBus)
And it lets you watch out the front of the train from New Haven to springfield :)
I believe a few Metroliners hewld on until the late 80's, and a few more still are origional (in storeage), and a few more are floating around as cabs, but still have their pans.
I'm not sure what the technology they used was (I'm thinking phase angle control via mercury arc "ignitron" tubes, like the silverliner), but it was certainly a failure.
As I have taken the Vermonter from Meriden I can atest to the fact that the cab car can bi on either end. Both times I was a passenger the cab car was on the New Haven end. I was atanding at the pront looking out the railfan window(s) and a regualy passenger came up. He remarked that there is an engineer who is on this route and he keeps the door b/t the cab and the car proped open with a 2x4. This is because the line has a lot a grade crossings and grade crossing accidents (I heard that Wallingford CT has the most grade crossing deaths in the US). The engineer wanted to be able to set the breaks and bail out before the impact given his exposed position in the control cab. The control cabs look very nice and they are quire roomy. Unlike a Metro North cab they have a huge padded leather seat. Quick question. Why does Amtrak run the train through Palmer instead of up the CT River valley?
Yeah, the crews along there do tend to keep that door open. IMHO, people in CT are just plain bad drivers. And they're pretty stupid about trains too. Since those cars were origionally for the PRR, and since the NEC didn't have many grade crossings then, I guess the cab design wasn't a major consideration - the bracing that Amtrak did durring the rebuild just kills the looks of them (ok, they were ugly before that too).
No clue why they go through Palmer. What really eats me is that the line is pretty straight (more so than the NH line!), but they never get over 70 or so. If they could get better accelaration and higher speeds, they could have slashed a few min off the time to Springfield. IMHO, they should have wired up there too (but that's another issue entirely). Anyway, the normal Springfield section of the Northeast Direct trains is 2 cars, and always overfilled on friday nights. The Boston ones are more, and also filled. Avoid it on holidays (don't ask me how I know)
Actually, the Metroliner was pretty successful. The propulsion equipment, however, sucked. The cars became the 'mold' from which the Amfleet and Amfleet II cars were made from. There is a car now at the RR Museum of PA, in a somewhat deteriorated condition.
-Hank
A couple of years ago, Amtrak was using ex-Metroliner cab cars on the Chicago-Milwaukee trains (operationg push-pull with the locomotive on the North end of the train). However, now they're using the former F40s which have been de-engined on these trains, as well as on the trains from Chicago to Michigan. The advantages of the former locomotives include better crash protection than the cab cars and the ability to double as baggage cars (which they do use them for on some runs).
-- Ed Sachs
They were the former metroliner self-propelled MU cars. They were used on the Atlantic City Branch, and on corridors like NY-Philadelphia, Chicago-Millawakuee and out in california.
The original 10 cab cars built from former Metroliners were 9630-9639. These were all assigned to he "San Diegans" in California. Cars 9633 and 9637 were wreck-retired over the years, and a few others have also been retired. Nowadays, we see only 9632,9634,9636, and 9639 working the line.
For the Atlantic City services, another handful was built, and I believe these were 9640, 9642-9646. Somehow they skipped 9641 from all accounts I have seen.
Then there was 9800. This is a Conference Cab Car. It has the front end completely sealed so it really can't be used mid-train, a different paint job than the rest of the cab cars, and the interior has, of course, a conference room among other things not found in your usual Amtrak cars.
Cabs 9641 and 9643 are currently leased to MARC commuter service now.
Chaohwa
Ah, so there IS a 9641. I've checked a couple rosters, and bot of them omitted that number for some strange reason. Thanks for clearing up that situation.
In addition to the numbers I mentioned in a previous post< there are some that were never renumbered from 800-series original numbers, and still had their pantographs on them while working the Chicago area! Apparently, there was a handful that had only the diesel m.u. control consoles/wiring installed and nothing else was done. The cars that ran as such also still had the red/blue front ends instead of the yellow/black striping. (9630 ran on the San Diegan for about a month, in testing, with red/blue -- but once it went into everyday service, it got the yellow/black.)
When exactly does the present contract end?
Has the TWU heeded our mayor's advce for round-the-clock negotiations? How about the MTA as well?
How long can the TWU hold out before the Taylor law sanctions and fines bankrupt the union?
And just to remind you about the stakes, this notice went up a my place of employment earlier this week:
"If a transit strike should take place in the near future, it is still neccessary for all employees to show up on every day of your schedule. We suggest that employees find some sort of transportation. All employees that cannot report to work on time will be terminated"
Work it out. Now.
The current contract ends at 12:01 A.M. on Thursday, December 16. Therefore, they may strike any time beginning Thursday morning.
I have yet to hear about round the clock negotiations, in fact I don't think they are talking at all!
Regarding the transit workers, they will lose out in a strike no matter what. Right now they are being offered a 3% annual raise, not the 10% they are offered. Let's say they strike for two weeks and settle for 5%. By striking 2 weeks, they will lose 4 weeks of pay. They will never make up the lost wages with that additional 2% increae, so the entire thing is nuts.
(Entire thing is nuts).
With all this stuff about respect, and who is the boss, and politics getting involved, nuts things can happen. I expect a two to four day strike so everyone can show their a-- before having to compromise. Pataki will not get away with a fare increase without some pain for riders, and the TWU leadership will not get away with a reasonable percent increase without some pain for the members. There are plenty of hotheads who will trade a loss of eight days pay to vent their anger, and other unions might make up some of it.
Hopefully things will stop there, and not spiral out of control. A brief strike is bad, but better than some other possible outcomes here.
The more I look at the specifics of this dispute, the more upset I become. If the TWU wants to screw millions of New Yorkers, and many of it's own members just to make some political point, then they should be removed from their positions.
BTW, I'd like to hear why a 3% annual raise is not "fair" ...
Because New Yorkers don't think that 30% for the Mayor is "fair".
The mayor does not get an annual raise.
Most people who work in the private sector don't get annual raises. That's a luxury that many city workers seem to think is a basic human right.
Actually, most people who work in the private sector have been getting raises that exceed the inflation rate for the past three or four years.
That's true. But how many have been getting raises that are more than triple the rate of inflation? That's basically what the TWU wants. A 27% increase over 3 years is an outragous demand. Hope the TWU finds another reason to rally the public behind it's cause, because the MTA can play up the "holding a gun to the city's head" thing full tilt should a stike hit, and people look for someone to blame.
Sure its outrageous. The only solution is to break up the monopoly so a gun could never be held to the city's head again. Hence the de-unification plan. The more I think about it, the more I like it.
Better yet, have seperate unions for the different branches. The the chances of both unions getting together to blackmail the city like they are now becomes quite remote.
Chris, you keep drawing meaningless parallels. Some of the brokerage houses give 6 & 7 figure X-mas bonus's to their most successful traders. TA managers do not get any bonus. The fact is that one reason people opt for public sector employment is for security and the assuredy of incrimental raises. For that they surrender many rights that the private sector has (such as the right to strike). However, you should not assume that you can weigh the situation of the TWU rank & file from the perspective of a member of the private sector.
I keep hearing TWU members compare themselves to succesful stockbrokers, and cops and such. Get over yourself. You drive trains. You sell tokens. You fix tracks. You're not that important. It's a job. You do it for a sum of money. That's all you are.
If we're not that important why is eveyone in such a tizzy about a strike. And true we are not cops because if we are assaulted we cannot take any action for fear of dismissal. Also other city contracts are up after ours NYPD, FDNY, sanitation, teachers so they have a vested interest because what we get they get.
12/15 is near be afraid very afraid
Not him. Steve is a Car Equipment manager. Stop shooting your mouth off without knowing all the facts youngster. Those of us who are regulars here all get along quite well well, despite our many differences of opinion. The love of this system being the unifying factor. Please avoid outright hostility.
When a gun is pointed at my head, I respond with anger, and I won't apologize for it. Please spare me the "I don't understand what I'm talking about" routine. I apologize for my tone, but I won't apologize for what I said.
Chris, what seems to be your problem? I don't think I attacked you. I simply told you that since you are not a TWU member, you simply can't understand their position or why 3% may not be adequate for them.
As for me, no, I don't drive trains, I don't fix track either. I don't do any of those jobs that you seem to find so demeaning. Now I'm sure I don't do anything nearly as important as you do but then again. I ain't visiting websites about your job....
I apologize for the tone. However, I stand by everything I said. 3% is enough. It's downright generous. I am worried what will happen if they follow through with their threatand strke, thus making the lives of millions of this city's residents very miserable.
Unfortunately, you didn't listen to what others told you. No matter what you think, or what the media says, we are NOT beng offered 3%/year.
We ARE being offered 2.25%/year and a one shot deal of the TA paying a 3.2% part of our pension payment. Come the next contract, that would have to be renegotiated to continue, unless the NY State Legislature enacts changes in our pension. As a result, that 3.2 % can NOT be considered a raise, because it is not a permanent change to base salary.
Now, if the cost of living is rising at about 4%/year, how could 2.25%, or even 3% be enough? That means to continue working at a job I like, I need to lose money every year.
You like this job? There's something wrong here.
I understand this. My quarrel isn't with the offer itself. It's with the entire idea that what's been offered to you is "unfair". Unfair would be nothing. Unfair would be a salary rollback. What youve been offered is fair as opposed to what private sector employees get. Sure you want more. That's human nature. But you're not going to get it. Especially when you attempt to use straphangers as a bargaining chip.
If transit workers would simply admit this, saying the just want more instead of using words like "unfair" and "gestapo tactics" and "Mayor Ghouliani", I wouldn't be so angry.
We as straphangers are innocent pawns in a battle between the MTA and the TWU. I do call it terrorism because if TA workers walk out, THEY DO HOLD THE CITY HOSTAGE!
NYC relies on it's subways alot more now than in 1980, and as Wednsday looms nearer, we do not realize the chaos that may break out as a result.
If I were in charge, I'd probably send in army troops and police to keep buses running. It's not "Goebbles" of me to do so (like some suggest), it would be simply cruel to let inncent people be pawns in a walkout of unhappy TA employees.
I'd actually like to see Guiliani, and the Federal Government doing more, and feel alot more comfortable with alot of police and army troops ensuring a stable state for all of us, instead of just letting TA workers shut down vital city services.
Terrorism is an extreme way to describe what the union is doing. Oklahoma City was the result of terrorism. A better word to describe the strike threat would be blackmail.
Well, most of use prefer liberty, regardless of the deficiencies of such. Your plan will not fly.
This is 153 Street
The next stop on this 2 train will be 161 Street, change there for the 5.
Well, most of use prefer liberty, regardless of the deficiencies of such. Your plan will not fly.
No, and what makes police, national guard or army qualified to operate buses? Buses are more like tractor-trailers than they are like cars or vans. A bus is a long vehicle. You need to be trained to drive them. I can just see some yokel from upstate who never drove a bus before, driving one in grid-lock Manhattan traffic during a transit strike. That's what may cause fatalities, not the strike itself.
You have the wrong conception of what's going on at the negotiations. It's not that we want more. It's that we're simply trying to hold on to what we've got!
How is a 3% raise "holding on" to what you got? It's this sort of convoluted TWU thinking that has me perplexed.
Apology is not required. I just want you to understand that you can't say that 3% is not enough. I personally feel that they TWU should get more. Of course if they get it, then the supervisors will get it. And if the supervisors get it :)
LOL. I might actually buy the argument that 3% is "not enough". It's words like "unfair" that get me riled up. When I see Mexican resturant workers toiling 50-60 hours a week for chump change, I just cannot see how what the MTA is offering can be considered "unfair". It's undesireable, perhaps.
Unfair. OK, I'll explain it this way.
(DISCLAIMER! I DO NOT ADVOCATE MORE MONEY. I SIMPLY USE THESE FIGURES TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT!)
A NYCTA conductor earns at top rate $18.65 or so an hour. At PATH or the LIRR or Metro-North the top rate is $25 an hour.
THAT'S what Steve meant by fair.
Why is the larger pay rate "fair"? Perhaps what you recieve is "fair" and the PATH and LIRR rate is too much. If you want to make that kind of money, apply for a job at the Port Authority.
Just admit you want more money. Stop portraying yourself as an oppressed worker and then I wouldn't be against you as much.
That is not true. Most private workers get reviewed and raises on an annual basis. The raise may not be much, (2-3%) but it is something. As far as the mayor's salary goes, that position had not had a salary increase in over 8 years before the 30% increase. The increase put the salary in line of what it should be for the chief executive officer of the city. Remember there are thousands of transit workers, only 1 mayor at a time.
His 30% raise costs the city a few thousand dollars. A 27% increase over 3 years (9% per) will cost the MTA millions. Besides, he's the mayor. It's a 24 hour/7 day a week job with more pressure than any job that a TWU worker might hold.
Really? So if Im a polititian, I can just go to First National City Bank and say, give me the money and it is all perfectly legal? Even in the private sector, you are subject to a form of collective bargaining, although watered down compared to a union's version. I would assume that you would agree that the amount of money he raided from the city's coffers (20 million) used to prosecute every pornography shop, Virgin Mary Painting and dog dootie dumper was fair in conducting business in a reasonable fashion too. If the Mayor can get away with it, why can't we? If they can afford to pay a Long Island engineer almost $30 an hour, then we can surely get a piece of the pie. Mark my words, we will get a piece of the pie, even if it is delivered in the face.
All those words weren't necessary. All you had to say was: gimme, gimme, gimme.
It is not 3% a year, they are offering 9 1/4% over 4 years. If you ever negotiated for anything you should know that one party starts high and the other low and a compromise is met, hence the term negotiate.
I have yet to see a single transit worker say that their 27% increase demand is a mere negotiation tool. They are actually defending it. Personally, I think the MTA increase is quite fair. I might even be willing to give a little more (say 12% over 4 years). Anything beyond that is totally unjustified.
Beware of a strike fellas. You see how virulant I've become against the TWU, and I LOVE you guys. I want to be one of you some day. Imagine how people who don't much care for you in this city will react should there be a strike.
Mark: It not Thursday it Wednesday morning at 12:01am & they will begin to strike. But look like it will be a strike because meeting didn't go well today.
Peace Out
David Meaney
The contracts of the MTA employees is set to run out Thursday morning at 12:01 AM. The union is demanding a 27% increase over the next four year but the MTA only want's to give up about 13%. Yesterday, the MTA increased their offer and the union decreased it's offer but no settlement has been reached. If the mayor does get an injunction then the employees would be required to go to work but rumor has it that the motormen of the subways would operate at very slow speeds to show their discontentment.
Is OPTO an issue?
Actually, management made OPTO an issue by offering to give us back the conductors on the now OPTO trains in exchange for hand picked train operators in the future (Train Workers One and Two). The program would appoint conductors (TW-1) in the current fashion of civil service exams but there would not be a promotional exam to train operator (TW-2). Instead the line managenment would recommend certain personel for the hand picked promotion. The big catch here is like in Chicago, a qualified train operator who was trained as a conductor will have to work the old position as directed. This would negate the need to replace retiring conductor as needed because we would replace ourselves. The TA wanted this so bad they were willing to eliminate OPTO, an already losing propaganda. This will eliminate future employment for the City of New York and break the Civil Service system as well. While I am happy that there would still be a crew of two on a train, I am not amazed that the TA who spend YOUR $$$ on implemetation of OPTO will now flush it all away with no accountability. From the governor, the mayor and the riding public. The union could care less about OPTO now that it is in our contract. When the passenger was raped on the G line where was Straphangers? They seemed to have lost their punch.
Wow Harry, thanks for the info.As you know here in Chicago
OPTO was shoved down our throats without one penny
increase. ATU 308 didn't even wimper. The public seemed
non chalant. Not one person, politician or otherwise came
to our aid. And it looks like we will be re-electing the
same a__hole for union president(Jerry Williams) that screwed us last
time.
"If a transit strike should take place in the near future, it is still neccessary for all employees to show up on every day of your schedule. We suggest that employees find some sort of transportation. All employees that cannot report to work on time will be terminated"
Personally, I have no problem with people raising complaints and freedom of speech, however, anyone who doesn't show up for their normal shift *SHOULD* be fired, no matter who the company/gov't agency may be. If the company can find someone who is willing to work for what the TWU considers to be unfair wages, then so be it. Fire all the TWU people who walk off the job and hire those who will be thankful to have the job. I've worked for companies where I was paid close to nothing for the amount of work I was doing, but I still showed up every day. When I couldn't take any more of it I gave them a two week notice rather than walk off the job. Walking off was tempting, but unfair to they employer.
MARTA is the best transit system in the world today. The trains always run on time and you can set your watch by the trains. The trains are extremely clean including the carpet. The turnstiles always work properly. There is no crime on MARTA and it a first class system.
All I can say it's the GREATEST. Beats New York City Transit.
You apparently haven't visited Toronto.
what about montreal! check them out! however, there isn't much to enjoy about them like our own.
I'm telling you that MARTA is the best system in the world. Not doubt about it. I have ridden TTC and they are not as good.
biggest joke in sub talk ever !! try living there as i did !!
You are wrong today. We have plastic cards and they always work. The vehicular traffic in Atlanta is much worse than New York City and you have to take MARTA unless you what to spend 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 hours to go 20 miles from the suburbs to downtown. You have to be STUPID not to ride MARTA to and from work.
The traffic on I-285, I-75 and 316 are the worst in the country.
If I go by what I read and hear, and by what you said, there are many stupid people in Atlanta. Or maybe, they are not stupid, but just do not live or work anywhere near a MARTA station.
I ride the train 5 days a week. What are talking about?
I'm talking about the people who do not live and work anywhere near a MARTA station and have to use the highways, that I hear are very crowded.
you see thats because MARTA IN ATLANTA is like the BRAVES ........
a 9 to 5 loser !! check out thier paper transcards CHEAP 1984-1995
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MARTA is a 9 to 5 winner and the BEST IN THE WORLD in this age any other age!!
Have you ever been over seas. Try the MRT in Both Hong Kong, and Singapore, Clean, Fast, Cheap. In rush hours trains every 75-90 seconds, few breakdowns. Singapore, people very curteous. Great System
I think the TA should get rid of its 75' subway cars for a number of reasons.
1. They cannot operate on the Eastern Division of the BMT (J,L,M,&Z lines)
2. You cannot go from car to car which would be nice in an emergency.
3. The system was not originally designed to handle such cars.
4. When they designed them they only provided four sets of doors on each side rather than five which creates congestion when people are exiting or entering the car.
5. If the TA wanted to have a more sensible type of subway car they should have revisited the BMT's idea of a Multi-section type subway car which would have been more economical to operate than the R series cars that they are running presently and it would have been a good deal lighter per linear foot than any of the R series subway cars.
they can make them safer to pass through. they are made to run in the system, check out the IND Queens Boulevard express and local. also the A,N,B,and D trains they run with perfection. also look way back when the first 75'car was used back in the 40's.
The Eastern Division's right of way could be fixed at such locations like Essex Street,Cresent,etc. I've seen J/Z/L and M Letter codes on the R-68/68A cars .
I think the letter signs are interchangeable; that is, there is one sign that can be used in all cars.
-Hank
also look way back when the first 75'car was used back in the 40's.
75' cars were not used back in the 40's. The first 75' cars were the R-44's. The longest cars prior to that were the BMT Standards from 1914. They were 67' and ran until 1969.
There are also advantages:
1. Fewer cars per train lowers maintenance costs
2. A 600' train of 75' cars can seat more people than a 10 car train of 60' cars
As for them being unable to handle the Eastern Division BMT, they don't run there. There are plenty of old 60' cars to service that, plus the new R143 will be 60'
And for the Eastern Division riders, the real positive long-term advantage is when the annoying R-44s and the R-68s get old, the MTA can't dump them on the J/L/M/Z the way they did the aging Standards, R-7/9s, R-16s and curently the R-40M/R-42s. The IND and the BMT southern division are stuck with those cars until they're finally taken out of service, while only the R-32s can still be shifted over to the Eastern Division when they get to their final days sometime in the future, which doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
J Lee:
I do agree with you that at least at this time that they cannot dump the annoying R-44s, R-46s, R-68s & R68-As onto the Eastern division when they are on their last legs. I was also suggesting that the TA should revisit the idea of a Multi-section type subway car that would be lightweight, durable and ecomonical to run and can carry even more passengers then the 75' long subway cars. As for the 67' Standard that was used on the BMT for many decades I think a modern version of that subway car should be looked into seriously as it had many features which I liked from what I've read about that type of subway car. You can have three extra wide sets of double doors on each side of the car to allow for quick loading and unloading. The only change I would make from the Standard is that the doors would have no center pillars so that wheelchair bound users can enter the cars with ease but everything else would remain essentially the same as the original BMT Standard except that it would be more modern. This type of subway car can be operated in sets of three if so desired.
Jeff Alterman
I like the R46s. Can't imagine the F without them. I think they are the best car in the fleet.
Ditto. Since their GOH, they have actually gotten faster.
"Ditto. Since their GOH, they have actually gotten faster."
Well Chris, at least you are consistant - wrong again!!!
Pre-GOH the R-44/R-46 had a balancing speed of 80 MPH. The cars pre-overhaul had four 115 HP traction motors. (The 46 was actually capable of speeds in excess of that but be too like to go much faster.) After GOH, the balancing speed was reduced to 50 MPH. The traction motors remained at 115 HP but the gear ratios were reduced to increase accelleration and limit top speed. That was before the 3 field shunting steps were removed from parallel configuration.
Steve, the 46's do 0 to 30, in about two days. I've been finding a few more dead motors lately. I read a T.T. the other day about car 6080. It seems the T/O got indication and took power...with the doors open at Jay. What caused this?
Since I am not at Jamaica presently, I can only speculate. Indication with doors open is usually a false feed to the 21 wire in the head car. As for more dead motors, I can't say why but if you give me car numbers, the cars will be called off & repaired.
How do you repair dead motors? Do you put a new one in or something?
A dead motor is a generic term for the traction motors not taking power. This may be as simple as a blown fuse or a serious problem in the logic. One would first do a visual inspection. Then under low voltage only, insure that the group switch box has a proper sequence (meaning the right sets of switches open and close in the proper order). Then you would check the high voltage components for continuity or a ground. It is not too frequent that the traction motor is actually replaced although it does happen.
the good old R 1- THRU R-9 were better RAIL FAN WINDOWS etc....
but i would settle for a good od r 30 slant r 40 thank you !!
My plan is to use joints like on the D60 busses. They can even have seats in this area, as the D60 does. What other technologies should they borrow from the Bluebird?
If the BMT had still existed, then the R-142 would be considered antiquated and obsolete.
If the BMT had still existed, then the R-142 would be considered antiquated and obsolete.
That is not a theory, that is a fact! The first Bluebirds began arriving in 1938. Look what the competing IRT was offering - 1938 World's Fair Cars; a slight improvement over the Lo-V from 1914. Look what the competing IND was offering - R-1/9's; essentially a copy-cat of the BMT Triplex from 1925. However, the most important feature of the Triplex was missing - articulation. If you want to see more about the BMT, go to http://bmt-lines.com/. Let me make a disclaimer. I cannot take credit for the site. It is not mine.
Since I never rode on any of the BMT "specialty" cars such as the Bluebird, Multi, or Zephyr I'm really in a great position to compare. But really, were they that much better than the R1's, Low V's or even the BMT's own Standards? Or was it just looks? A subway car should be built for function, carrying huge crowds during rush hours. I personally think of the R1-9 as the perfect subway car. Four doors on each side, great seating arrangement, good fans and heat, hand holders, better destination signs, etc. Although I loved the standards the 2 and 3 seating arrangement made it awkward to walk down the aisle during crowded rush hours, the aisles snaked. Considering when they were new people were used to mostly gate cars the R-1 was a vast improvement. Although I was never a fan of the R-10 there are many posters in subtalk who think of that car as the perfect subway car. Also as far as modern looks are concerned the Slant 40's were a big winner, probably better looking than any of the BMT specials. When they came out I thought it was right out of the Jetsons! The Low-V's problem was that it just looked too plain but for utility it wasn't too bad. Although I don't know much about the technical aspects of articulated cars such as advantages vs. disadvantages I would venture a guess that if they were so much better the TA would still be using them and they would still be being built. By the way, to this day when I think of the subway I still associate the R1-9's in my mind and when I'm waiting in a station I still subconsciously expect one to show. When I think of subway sounds I still think of their sounds.
By the way, this wasn't meant to knock the BMT "specials". I'm sure I would have loved them too. Just defending the others!!!
Since I never rode on any of the BMT "specialty" cars such as the Bluebird, Multi, or Zephyr I'm really in a great position to compare. But really, were they that much better than the R1's, Low V's or even the BMT's own Standards? Or was it just looks? A subway car should be built for function, carrying huge crowds during rush hours. I personally think of the R1-9 as the perfect subway car. Four doors on each side, great seating arrangement, good fans and heat, hand holders, better destination signs, etc. Although I loved the standards the 2 and 3 seating arrangement made it awkward to walk down the aisle during crowded rush hours, the aisles snaked. Considering when they were new people were used to mostly gate cars the R-1 was a vast improvement. Although I was never a fan of the R-10 there are many posters in subtalk who think of that car as the perfect subway car. Also as far as modern looks are concerned the Slant 40's were a big winner, probably better looking than any of the BMT specials. When they came out I thought it was right out of the Jetsons! The Low-V's problem was that it just looked too plain but for utility it wasn't too bad. Although I don't know much about the technical aspects of articulated cars such as advantages vs. disadvantages I would venture a guess that if they were so much better the TA would still be using them and they would still be being built. By the way, to this day when I think of the subway I still associate the R1-9's in my mind and when I'm waiting in a station I still subconsciously expect one to show. When I think of subway sounds I still think of their sounds.
By the way, this wasn't meant to knock the BMT "specials". I'm sure I would have loved them too. Just defending the others!!!
I never rode any of the "specialty" cars either. What I am most surprised about is never even seeing a train of Multi's either on the System or in a yard! Yet, I remember R-27's brand new, going into service during the same time period. I rode the Standards and Triplexes a lot a s a kid. All that I know about the Multi's, Bluebirds, Zephyr and Green Hornet is what I read and pictures that I've seen. For more BMT info, I refer you to http://bmt-lines.com/ The site is not mine, by the way. I found it because it's owner left a post in the guestbook on my site, NYC TRANSIT with the URL. As for the R-1/9's and the Lo-V's, yes, they were great utility cars. They served the purpose very well. What I'm referring to, regarding the BMT is progressive, innovative design. As for the design of the Slant R-40, you can't compare body design from the 1930's with body design from the late 1960's. However, the Zephyr from 1934 didn't look like it was far behind the R-32 from 1964. As for comfort, the Slants score a D-. As for articulation, its a definate plus. Three cars on 4 trucks, instead of 6; shorter cars for greater ease in negotiating sharp curves. The BMT started using articulated cars in 1925 and kept using them until the City took the BMT over. That was the end of articulated equipment. There was only 6 Bluebird units because the City cancelled the order that the BMT had for 50 more Bluebird units. The Bluebirds were designed for a smoother, quieter ride. That wasn't achieved until the R-44. There's a lot of articulated equipment in Europe today. They must be doing something right!
The multis were the alltime speed champions, based on what I've read. Not only that, but their acceleration was unsurpassed. Can you imagine a set of multis rocketing along CPW on an express run? They probably would have put the R-10s to shame. How about the 14th St. tunnel? Can anyone say middle C at the lowest point?
The Bluebirds could also accelerate rapidly, since they were basically PCCs, but their top balancing speed was only 39 mph compared to 58 for the multis.
You have to admit there were some very innovative minds on the BMT. It's a shame articulation wasn't considered when fleet standardization occurred in the 1960s. At least the Triplexes could have been saved that way.
As for the R-10s, everyone has their opinion about them. While I thought very highly of them, not everyone does. That's OK.
You have to admit there were some very innovative minds on the BMT. It's a shame articulation wasn't considered when fleet standardization occurred in the 1960s. At least the Triplexes could have been saved that way.
An articulated R-32! The Zephyr reincarnated. I like that idea.
With the new subway cars being linked as permanent 4 and 5 car sets, I don't understand why articulation wasn't seriously considered. A 5 car set of articulated cars would only need 6 trucks, as opposed to 10 for non-articulated cars. Sounds like this would save some serious maintenance $$$.
With the new subway cars being linked as permanent 4 and 5 car sets, I don't understand why articulation wasn't seriously considered. A 5 car set of articulated cars would only need 6 trucks, as opposed to 10 for non-articulated cars. Sounds like this would save some serious maintenance $$$.
It depends on the length of the sections. A 3-section Triplex was the same length as 2 Standards. Both the 3-section Triplex and the 2-car Standard sat on 4 trucks. the shorter Triplex sections, and the even-shorter Multi and shorter yet Bluebird sections were very flexible on sharp curves. Like I said on a previous post, there is a lot of articulated equipment in Europe. They must be doing something right.
Come the day when the R-44s have to be replaced, the MTA could think about an articulated unit of three 50-foot sections to replace the 75-footers. To passnegers, they would basically look like wider IRT cars in section length, but could be used on all sections of the BMT and IND, unlike the current post-1970 B division (and pre R-143) units. You would also increase the number of doors on each train from 32 to 36 (12 sections with three doors apiece), which would speed movement in and out of the cars during rush hour.
Come the day when the R-44s have to be replaced, the MTA could think about an articulated unit of three 50-foot sections to replace the 75-footers. To passnegers, they would basically look like wider IRT cars in section length, but could be used on all sections of the BMT and IND, unlike the current post-1970 B division (and pre R-143) units. You would also increase the number of doors on each train from 32 to 36 (12 sections with three doors apiece), which would speed movement in and out of the cars during rush hour.
Sounds good to me. Now, we need to sell the idea to the TA. Lets call it the Y2K Triplex.
My main problem with the R10 was noise. I've been told tht they weren't as noisy when they were newer.
Eugenius D. Train:
I would agree with you that if the BMT was still in existence their would be no R-142 subway car but something that is much better. I have seen pictures of the R-142s and they remind me of a stainless steel version of the "Redbirds".
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone & FAX (914) 478-3454
What about train operators and conductors? We all need the transverse cabs. You cannot have a railfan window with a trasverse cab. Conductors in 75 foot trains now enjoy the ease and convenience of not having to walk between two trains to open doors. We definately are in favor of transverse cabs, so it is imposible to have railfan windows. I happen to like the 75 foot cars, they are quiet and comfortable. The speed needs upgrading, and several electrical problems need to be looked into- lighting problems,etc. However, quality control in the construction and manufacture of these cars is the problem. Maintenance is another problem. Overall, the R-46 is a good car and the TA should keep this design when ordering new cars, and make them even better with the latest upgrades. The formica interior and woodgrain should be put in all train cars since it is more resistant to scratchiti and graffitti. Look at the wreck the metal interiors of the R68 cars became. How do you get rid of the scratchiti besides rebuild the interiors? So far- the R46 interiors are relatively scratch free. The TA didn't do it's homework when it ordered the R62's and R68's.
Scrattchitti wasn't an issue when the cars were ordered. And the easy way to clear up the scratched metal is to scratch it more. Just hit it with a power sander, or acid etch it.
-Hank
Why make it more modern? Make it exactly like the old standards including:Storm door windows that open Ceiling fans That little windows on the cab for toddlers to watch the motorman drive The exact same colors 2 and 3 person seats across (cane of course) Bull & Pinion gears for that GREAT sound Also throw in a few R1-9 replicas and a Triplex or two. Then you'll have REAL subways!!!
Why make it more modern? Make it exactly like the old standards including:
Storm door windows that open
Ceiling fans
That little windows on the cab for toddlers to watch the motorman drive
The exact same colors
2 and 3 person seats across (cane of course)
Bull & Pinion gears for that GREAT sound
Also throw in a few R1-9 replicas and a Triplex or two. Then you'll have REAL subways!!!
The storm doors on the Standards were locked.
I meant the windows on the storm doors. They were open which was great in the 1rst car. I remember the doors were locked between cars as I distinctly remember my granmother holding my hand as we ran from one car to another at each station on California Fred's favorite line!!!
I meant the windows on the storm doors. They were open which was great in the 1rst car. I remember the doors were locked between cars as I distinctly remember my granmother holding my hand as we ran from one car to another at each station on California Fred's favorite line!!!
One characteristic of all BMT steel equipment was the ability to open the storm door window. BTW, the Standards were delivered with a solid piece of glass in the storm door when they were new. The storm door windows were modified later. I believe that occurred in the 1920's.
The storm doors on the BMT standards were unique in that they were powered. Otherwise, yes, they were normally locked. I do remember seeing a storm door or two held in place with a 2x6; out of curiosity, I tried the handle and, sure enough, it was unlocked. Two things I was curious about: could the storm doors on the standards be opened manually? Was the power feature retained when the units which lasted through 1969 were rebuilt?
The storm doors on the Triplexes were also locked, even though the ends remained aligned around curves. Apparently, it was felt that the outside space on the threshold plates would invite horseplay.
All subway cars have bull and pinion gears arranged in such a way so that they remain in constant mesh. This arrangement was developed by Frank Sprague; the motor is fastened on one end while the opposite end is mounted on a spring. Prewar cars had spur-cut gears which resulted in the musical sounds I especially enjoyed. Post war cars have helical-cut gears which do not moan and groan. Of course, if they wanted to save a few bucks, they could go back to spur-cut bull and pinion gears, which are cheaper to manufacture...
The storm doors on the BMT standards were unique in that they were powered. Otherwise, yes, they were normally locked. I do remember seeing a storm door or two held in place with a 2x6; out of curiosity, I tried the handle and, sure enough, it was unlocked. Two things I was curious about: could the storm doors on the standards be opened manually? Was the power feature retained when the units which lasted through 1969 were rebuilt?
The storm doors on the Triplexes were also locked, even though the ends remained aligned around curves. Apparently, it was felt that the outside space on the threshold plates would invite horseplay.
All subway cars have bull and pinion gears arranged in such a way so that they remain in constant mesh. This arrangement was developed by Frank Sprague; the motor is fastened on one end while the opposite end is mounted on a spring. Prewar cars had spur-cut gears which resulted in the musical sounds I especially enjoyed. Post war cars have helical-cut gears which do not moan and groan. Of course, if they wanted to save a few bucks, they could go back to spur-cut bull and pinion gears, which are cheaper to manufacture...
I never knew that the Standard's storm doors were powered. What was the purpose for that? They were always locked anyway. Being that I didn't know about the power storm doors. I can't answer the question about the rebuilts. As for the Triplexes, no, the storm doors were not locked. Maybe in their last years. My recollection was from late 1950's to very early 1960's. You were able to move freely from one end of the train to the other. This I distinctly remember. As a young child (maybe 4 or 5 years old), I was afraid to walk between cars of a moving train. I remember the only way that I would walk from one car to the next on a moving train was through the articulated sections of the Triplexes. Walking through the cars as a family, I remember on the Triplexes that once we came to the end of the unit, I wouldn't go between the cars while the train was moving. My parents would have to wait for the train to stop, because I wouldn't go any further. I have good memories of the BMT as a young child. I remember incandescent lighting in BMT subway stations. I remember when they began installing the flourescent lights in the BMT in 1959. Unfortunately, I never saw a Multi, leave alone riding one. But, I can remember when the Standards and Triplexes ruled the BMT. I remember the Unrebuilts on the Southern Division. I also remember the Rebuilts on the Eastern Division. When I was a kid, I didn't notice that they were modified in any way. I just thought they were given a new paint job on the inside (the light speckled green). As a kid, just I thought that there were variations in the seating arrangement in some of the Standards, like there were variations in the roof styles. As a kid, and even today, I prefer single-leaf doors to double-leaf doors. I used to like the K-cars on the Path. They were the only modern cars in NY with single-leaf doors. being raised on the BMT, I only rode the Lo-V's 2 or 3 times in service. I also remember the IND being solid R-1/9, except for the R-10's on the A, and I remember the original colors of the R-10. Before the W.F. light blue and white, they were dark grey with an orange stripe. The number plates on the 10's matched with orange numbers. And, ah yes! The musical sounds of all the pre-war equipment. It was a characteristic of the subway that I will always miss. As for the title of this thread, the 75' cars were a mistake. If they would have went back to 67' cars, at least they would have fit. Look at all the trouble they went through just to make the 75' oddballs fit (and they still don't fit everywhere). They had to gouge out chunks of tunnel walls and catwalks just to make those cars fit a system that wasn't designed for 75' cars. Of course, we all know the answer to the length problem - articulated equipment.
I do agree with you that at least at this time that they cannot dump the annoying R-44s, R-46s, R-68s & R68-As onto the Eastern division when they are on their last legs. I was also suggesting that the TA should revisit the idea of a Multi-section type subway car that would be lightweight, durable and ecomonical to run and can carry even more passengers then the 75' long subway cars. As for the 67' Standard that was used on the BMT for many decades I think a modern version of that subway car should be looked into seriously as it had many features which I liked from what I've read about that type of subway car. You can have three extra wide sets of double doors on each side of the car to allow for quick loading and unloading. The only change I would make from the Standard is that the doors would have no center pillars so that wheelchair bound users can enter the cars with ease but everything else would remain essentially the same as the original BMT Standard except that it would be more modern. This type of subway car can be operated in sets of three if so desired.
As much as I loved the Standards, the bad thing about them was the locked end doors, just like the 75' cars. As for the rest of the features of the Standards, they were very advanced for their time. They came out in 1914. Yes, and the one unique feature about the Standards was the ability to seat 3 across. That was good for families and friends. very social cars, the Standards!
There was one other bad thing about the BMT standards: no route or destination signs on the bulkheads. I had a big problem with that when I first saw those cars. Granted it was no big deal on the Canarsie line west of Broadway Junction, but I still preferred seeing a letter or number sign on the front end of a train. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I never paid any attention to the marker lights.
There was one other bad thing about the BMT standards: no route or destination signs on the bulkheads. I had a big problem with that when I first saw those cars. Granted it was no big deal on the Canarsie line west of Broadway Junction, but I still preferred seeing a letter or number sign on the front end of a train. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I never paid any attention to the marker lights.
That's because we're all used to front route and destination signs. When the Standards were designed, the BRT had no route numbers yet. No rolling stock had signs on the front in 1914. That was an innovation of the Triplexes in 1925. There are probably a lot of young kids that visit the Transit Museum and comment "how did people ride the subway with no air conditioning years ago?" Many of us remember when there was no air conditioned rolling stock in the entire transit system.
So do I. In 1981-82, even if cars HAD AC equipped in them, they never worked.
So do I. In 1981-82, even if cars HAD AC equipped in them, they never worked
I could remember buses equipped with air conditioning always running with the windows open back in the 1970's. On the old GM buses, something tells me that when the A/C quit, they didn't fix it.
You're absolutely correct: we are used to having route and destination signs on the front end of a train. At least I had grown accustomed to that aspect by the time I saw the BMT standards for the first time. And, yes, they were a throwback to the days when rolling stock didn't have signs as such on the bulkheads. Sometimes gate cars would have a destination placard hanging on the platform railing.
More specifically, I was used to seeing the signs directly above the storm door. When the slant R-40s arrived on the scene, they threw me a curve ball. We were at 34th St. waiting for a D train when an F train of slants pulled in. My mother saw the large magenta F right away and said, "Look, an F train". I was looking right at it and did not see the F until she pointed it out to me. The funniest part was my sister liked those cars right away, and she is definitely not a subway buff.
You're absolutely correct: we are used to having route and destination signs on the front end of a train. At least I had grown accustomed to that aspect by the time I saw the BMT standards for the first time. And, yes, they were a throwback to the days when rolling stock didn't have signs as such on the bulkheads. Sometimes gate cars would have a destination placard hanging on the platform railing.
I spent the first 13 years of my life with the Standards on my home line, so I looked at things from a different perspective. When you would see a train of Standards come in, you would just look at the route and destination signs on the side of the cars to know what train it was, if you didn't know how to read marker lights. When I was a kid, I couldn't read marker lights. the R-Types spoiled all of us. On the IRT, the only pre-war cars that had a sign on the front were the 1938 World's Fair cars, and they were a minority. It was either read the marker lights or the side route and destination signs.
I wouldn't say the R units spoiled subway riders in terms of train markings; they simply made it easier to identify trains. When I rode on the subway for the first time in 1965, the R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s had taken over service on the Southern Division, and that's all we saw. Sad to say, I didn't see any Triplexes; they were literally in their final days and hours of service during our visit. When we moved to Jersey two years later and I started riding on the subway more frequently, all I saw initially were R units, and quickly became accustomed to seeing a route and destination sign above the storm door. I saw the BMT standards for the first time on the Canarsie line on July 20, 1967 and was shocked, to say the least. My 10-year-old head was spinning: oh, God, where did they come from? They look awful! No signs up front? THREE sets of doors instead of four?!? You mean we just left a nice A train of R-10s for this (OK, I didn't know they were R-10s then)? AAARRRRGHHHH!!! I almost didn't want to get on that train. Today, I wouldn't have any qualms about boarding such a train, if the standards were still running.
I saw the BMT standards for the first time on the Canarsie line on July 20, 1967 and was shocked, to say the least. My 10-year-old head was spinning: oh, God, where did they come from? They look awful! No signs up front? THREE sets of doors instead of four?!? You mean we just left a nice A train of R-10s for this (OK, I didn't know they were R-10s then)? AAARRRRGHHHH!!! I almost didn't want to get on that train. Today, I wouldn't have any qualms about boarding such a train, if the standards were still running.
You can't compare the Standards with the R-10's. The Standards were a 1914 design, quite advanced for their time, whereas the R-10 design was from 1948, which was a setback from the Bluebirds from 1938. One note on the Standards - They may have had only 3 sets of doors, but those doors were wider than any of the R-Types. If they didn't have the dividers between the doors, you would see how much wider those doors were. Also, in 1914, the Standards were really not designed as rapid transit cars. They were designed as Interurbans, which is why the unrebuilts had the seat that could fold down in front of an unused door. In the same way, their cousins on the SIRT were also designed as Interurbans - not quite rapid transit, not quite full-fledged railroad cars.
Yes, the BMT standards were a blend of steel subway car and interurban coach. They were a progression of sorts, an advancement over IRT rolling stock which was patterned after railroad coaches then in use. One issue they did address was the problem of passenger loading and unloading, which was accomplished quite well. Subway Cars of the BMT describes the design of the standards as being that of three Peter Witt streetcars in one subway car, with each set of doors being thought of as the middle of one streetcar.
I should point out that the subway was still very new to me in 1967, and first impressions can remain indelibly etched in a person's memory. I liked the R-32s from the moment I first saw them in 1965, and the same can be said for the R-1/9s when I rode on them for the first time on April 30, 1967.
To J Lee:
I certainly would have destination signs on the bulkhead end on a modernized version of the BMT Standard. Plus the end doors would unlock when the side doors open on a modernized version of the Standard. I had also suggested a modernized version of the BMT Multi-section cars.
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone (914) 478-3454
FAX: (914) 478-3454
E-mail
Jeff: I think you're referring to Steve B's post. My only desire for the Standards would be air conditioning -- but just have low-powered vent fans pushing the air out of the units at the end of the car, and let the overhead ceiling fans circulate the air through the rest of the car.
I certainly would have destination signs on the bulkhead end on a modernized version of the BMT Standard. Plus the end doors would unlock when the side doors open on a modernized version of the Standard. I had also suggested a modernized version of the BMT Multi-section cars.
I agree. All modern equipment should have front route and destination signs. Unfortunately, they started doing away with the front destination signs when the Chrystie St. connection opened. It started with the Slant R-40's. Soon, every R-16, R-32 and R-38 had only the color-coded route letter in its front destination sign box, and nothing in the route sign box. What a stupid thing they did to the R-32's and R-38's during their overhaul! At least on an A/B, you could read the marker lights. On the R-32/38's there are no marker lights anymore, and you can't read the front route sign! Although I love the Standards, I would go with a modern multi-section articulated car today.
At least the Redbirds still have their good old route and destination curtains. With the new service pattern on the 5, they will really come in handy. Too bad their marker lights aren't used for their intended purpose anymore. I wish I had paid more attention to them.
I agree with your assessment of the electronic route signs on the R-32s and R-38s: they are very difficult to decipher, especially on the R-32s.
J Lee
From: Jeff Alterman
I agree with you that a modern version of the BMT Multi-section car would be an excellent idea. I would use Multi-section cars throughout the subway system. (IRT) (BMT) & (IND). I never saw a Multi-section car in my life since thay were retired a year and a half before I was even born. What I know about the BMT Multi-section cars is what I have read about them. I have and I will never see a BMT Multi section car in my lifetime. Maybe someone could build a replica of such a car. The Multi-section cars from what I understand were a delight to ride because of their powerful acceleration.
From: Jeff Alterman
I agree with you that a modern version of the BMT Multi-section car would be an excellent idea. I would use Multi-section cars throughout the subway system. (IRT) (BMT) & (IND). I never saw a Multi-section car in my life since thay were retired a year and a half before I was even born. What I know about the BMT Multi-section cars is what I have read about them. I have and I will never see a BMT Multi section car in my lifetime. Maybe someone could build a replica of such a car. The Multi-section cars from what I understand were a delight to ride because of their powerful acceleration.
I never saw them either. I was born in 1954. I remember the BMT stations with incandescent lighting. They went flourescent in 1959. I remember the A/B's and D-Types. when I speak of A/B's, I mean Unrebuilts on the Southern Division and Eastern Division, as well as the Rebuilts on the Eastern Division. I remember the R-27's first going into service in 1960-61. I don't remember ever seeing a Multi, the Zephyr or the Bluebirds. I could have ridden a Hi-V, but I wouldn't have known it. I only remember riding any type of "V's" 2 or 3 times in regular service on the IRT mainlines. They were probably Lo-V's, but you never know. Its a shame that a train of Multi's couldn't have been saved as a museum train, along with the Zephyr and a Bluebird. Gone forever! But not forgotten.
J Lee:
I did get a chance to ride some IRT Low V's in 1994. It was on October 27th, 1994 when a four car train of IRT Low V's was placed on the 42nd St. shuttle to commemorate 90 years of subway service in NYC. It was a wonderful experience that I will never forget. It was a delight to hear the noise of the traction motors which one can easily imitate and to sit on the straw seats and to ride on cars which the windows opened up wide. Those cars were much different than what they are using today. I would love to ride on BMT Standards or "D" types even though I have seen them in the transit museum.
Jeff Alterman
Incidentally I was born in 1963
I did get a chance to ride some IRT Low V's in 1994. It was on October 27th, 1994 when a four car train of IRT Low V's was placed on the 42nd St. shuttle to commemorate 90 years of subway service in NYC. It was a wonderful experience that I will never forget. It was a delight to hear the noise of the traction motors which one can easily imitate and to sit on the straw seats and to ride on cars which the windows opened up wide. Those cars were much different than what they are using today. I would love to ride on BMT Standards or "D" types even though I have seen them in the transit museum.
Jeff Alterman
Back in the Seventies, the ERA ran many fantrips on the Lo-V's, D-Types and Standards. There were also the Nostalgia Specials every Saturday and Sunday, shich were sponsored by the Transit Authority to promote the Transit Museum. For $3, you were able to get the Museum D-Type or Museum R-1/9 in the morning at 57+6. It would stop at the Court St. Museum for a while, long enough to get a good look at everything and take pictures. Then, it would either go to Coney Island or Rockaway. Also, in regular service, they would run the R-1/9 museum train on the QB in evening rush hour. If I remember correctly, it would leave 57+7 at 5:30 or so for Coney Island. I was pretty much a regular on that train in the mid 1970's, even though I lived in Queens. As for the Lo-V's in 1994, I wasn't in town for that unfortunately. As for 2004, who knows?
I was in the city one week prior to the 90th anniversary in 1994. There was a poster promoting the Lo-Vs on the shuttle and when I saw that, I wanted to scream bloody murder. Hopefully there will be a special event on Oct. 27, 2004. That day will fall on Wednesday, and I will be on hand one way or another.
I also remember the ads for the Nostalgia Train, but never had a chance to ride on one of them.
As for prewar equipment, my experience is limited to R-1/9s and BMT standards.
SteveB-8TH AV. EXP.
From: Jeff Alterman
I did get a chance to ride on the IRT Low V subway cars on October 27,1994 and it was a wonderful experience. The car numbers in the Low V train set were 5290,5292,5443&5483. My mother remembers the Low V cars from the time she was young.
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone & FAX (914) 478-3454
I can only vaguly remember my first trip on the Low Vs, going up to Yankee Stadium on the Lex in the early 1960s. The last time I was on one was back in 1979, when they ran the museum train from 59th and Lex to Brooklyn Bridge as part of the 75th anniversary celebration.
I also missed the triplexes but did get on the rebuilt Standards on the LL, though as far as unusual rides on the 14th Street line, I remember the R-10 prototype 1575 the best.
I also missed the triplexes but did get on the rebuilt Standards on the LL, though as far as unusual rides on the 14th Street line, I remember the R-10 prototype 1575 the best.
Before 1575 was restored and sent to the Transit Museum, I remember seeing it regularly on the Eastern Division J and K lines (about 1973-1975). Because I lived near the 14th St. Line as a child growing up during Pre-Chrystie St. days, I remember the Unrebuilts, then the Rebuilts. As for unusual, I remember during Pre-Chrystie St. days, riding an occasional R-16, and occasionally the R-11 (solid R-11 train) during rush hours on the 14th St. Line. By then, the R-11 was the R-34 with the blue doors.
Having a solid train of R-11s coming in on the LL would have been a shocker to see, if you didn't know it was already there. The first time I saw it, I was trying to figure out why they put R-15 doors and destination signs onto an R-32.
BTW, just coming from another thread on the R-10 color scheme, if I remember right, 1575 kept the original R-10 colors with the gray and orange stripe, even after the real R-10s got the World's Fair color scheme. I don't ever remember seeing it with the MTA blue and silver, thank God.
Having a solid train of R-11s coming in on the LL would have been a shocker to see, if you didn't know it was already there. The first time I saw it, I was trying to figure out why they put R-15 doors and destination signs onto an R-32.
BTW, just coming from another thread on the R-10 color scheme, if I remember right, 1575 kept the original R-10 colors with the gray and orange stripe, even after the real R-10s got the World's Fair color scheme. I don't ever remember seeing it with the MTA blue and silver, thank God.
The first time I saw the R-11, I thought it was something new. I first saw it shortly after the R-32's came out, so I thought it was a new car order surpassing the R-32. It had red padded seats, so I thought the TA was going back to padded seats. I was anywhere from 10-12 years old at the time. As for 1575, it was never painted blue/white. It ran with the R-9's, as that's all it was compatible with. It could not run with the R-10's. It was an R-7 with an R-10 body. It always had its original paint in service. When it was restored, it was just repainted in its original colors. You can see it in the Transit Museum today.
I never saw 1575 in revenue service. Based on numerous photos, it kept the original R-10 color scheme right up until it was retired.
Never saw the R-11s, either. They spent most of their days on the Franklin Ave. shuttle sporting #7 signs. I did see some R-10s with double round windows on their doors a la the R-11s and R-15s. No one has been able to confirm this, not even William Padron.
While I never saw the R-16s on the Canarsie, they did operate there, both before and after Chrystie St., originally signed up as a #16 and later on, of course, as an LL. The story goes that the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line if a snowstorm was bearing down on Brooklyn (they weren't very reliable in bad weather), and BMT standards would take over on the Myrtle Ave. and Jamaica lines.
I did see some R-10s with double round windows on their doors a la the R-11s and R-15s. No one has been able to confirm this, not even William Padron.
I can't confirm that either. This is the first I've heard of any R-10's with porthole windows in their doors.
Now that everyone else has had their say, let me tell you why your idea is idiotic.
There are 280 R-44s
There are 752 R-46s
There are 425 R-68s
There are 200 R-68As
That's that's 1657 cars. To replace them with 60 foot cars, you'd need that number plus an additional 25% or 2,072 cars. At roughly $1.3 million per car, it'll cost you $2.7 billion dollars to replace them. And that number is on top of the 400 to 600 other cars that will require replacement during the time it will take to replace the 75 footers.
I must admit, Jeff. I wish I had thought of your idea first. Well thought out.........
Not to mention that the 75' cars are fairly reliable, and have a lot of life left in them (except perhaps the R44). You can't scrap a car because it has no railfan window, or it doesn't accelerate fast enough to give you a thrill.
Other day i was walking into books store at Bay Plaza & i was checking some books. So i found the books call "Past in the Bronx from 1920 to 1950. So i read some of page & i found the pictures of Low-V accident with other Low-V at 230st in the bronx in the early 50 & the T/O was killed. I look up in the accident list on NYCSubway page & i didn't find any information about Low-V accident in the early 50. Any body out there know about this Low-V accident in the early 50?
Peace Out
David Meaney
David: There was a collision between Flivver Motor 4068 and Lo-V Motor 5297 either in 1953 or some time before that. There are pictures of both cars in Joe Cunningham's book "Interborough Fleet."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Some of the signals on the Williamsburg bridge are signed "Blind Stop" -and yet there were no platforms or braille signage ;-)
Could someone explain the nomenclature to me?
thanks,
Dave
I think we did this before, the sign means that there is an automatic trains stop for trains coming from the opposite direction.
A "Blind Stop" is a stop arm to trip a train travelling too fast in a timed area, without an associated signal.
As well as what was stated by JohnM., there are also blind stops assosiated with wheel detectors. You will find blind stops assosiated with "Station Time" signals were there is a risk of rear end collisions. They can also be assosiated with an interlocking which will permit you to approach a "Home Signal" while a train is diverging from an ajacent track onto your track, here there is also a risk of collision.
A blind stop is a stop arm with no associated signal. When the
arm is up, there is no red aspect to alert the motorman to this
fact. That's why it is "blind". In the case of station timers
and approach signals, the stops are not blind; there are associated
red signals which clear (to yellow) on time. Perhaps you can
give an example of a blind stop being used in such an application.
On the W.B. they are used because there is no clearance for wrong-rail
signal heads on the north (east) bound track.
It's my understanding that there was a kind of blind trip used on the IRT which was assosated with the next signal and would clear when the next signal cleared. This allowed the train operator to key the preceding signal without the danger of collision because the blind trip would not allow him to get close enough to the train in front. As I understand these blind trips were phased out.
As far as what I said in my previous message, I should have explained further. There is a new blind trip at 138st Grand Concourse S/B which protects the interlocking, allowing a S/B train to enter the station while while a S/B train is crossing from M track to 1 track.
I have not personaly seen this trip but there is a bulleten about it and a Motor Instructor explained it to me.
It's unfortunate that just as they had almost gotten rid
of all the blind stops in the system, they have redoubled.
Both of the examples, old and new, which you cite are the typical
use of a blind stop, i.e. as a timer but without the associated
signal head. They cause much grief to motormen, but nearly as
much as the new and dreaded Wheel Detectors.
For a little amusement, I'd like to propose a betting pool concerning the length of the anticipated transit strike. The prize is, well, the satisfaction of guessing right. For simplicity's sake, I've broken the choices down into five categories. Good luck!
Category A - no strike
Category B - one day (a more or less symbolic action)
Category C - two to five days
Category D - five days to two weeks
Category E - more than two weeks
For the record, my choice is Category B. I predict that the union'll strike for one day to show that they mean business, then return to the bargaining table.
My vote is for Category C. From what I've read in the news media and on this board, the union membership is angry and the union leadership is under fire from hardliners and needs to show that they're tough. So a strike looks very likely. However, it is the holiday season, when financial pressures are greatest, and I cannot imagine blue-collar transit workers going without more than one week's pay.
I don't agree with the idea of a transit strike, though. I understand the bus and subway workers have their grievances, but so do we all, and many people will be hurt if the strike lasts more than a day.
- Jim (RailBus)
My Choice is Category A because i know MTA will give out a new contract before the deadline, if not than my second choice could be Category C.
Peace Out
David Meaney
Hmmm. My guess is a two to three day action -- it will be over by the following Monday, and may not happen until Saturday. I guess that's category C.
Questions: will union members who are off duty during the strike be fined also? Ie. if you work four days per week and the stike lasts seven, do you lose eight days pay or 14? If the strike "ends" but the service stinks, can that count as a strike day too?
Category C - a two day strike. Essentially to let off steam before returning to reality, and back to work. I think the MTA is not afraid of a strike this time around, and even seems to be subtly encouraging it by hitting all the TWU hot buttons. Very odd scenario.
12/10/99
Something else about this strike thing. If Willie James and the TWU bust the TA's nuts enough , would it come back to haunt the TWU later on ?
How about much more OPTO replacing conductors through attrition. I saw an OPTO marker on the northbound (F) station at 7th Ave. Is the (F) line next to get OPTO? Then the (A) , the (B) , the (D) , the (N) etc,etc,. You know , punishment for striking!
Bill Newkirk
There are lots of angry passengers, politicians are angry, newspapers are angry, store owners and businesses angry, The TA management is angry, and last but not least- the Transit Workers are angry. I am angry not only about the lousy pay increase proposal by TA Management- I am angry that the Union did not do damage control months ago to get the public on our side. Everyone is against us- we have no support. The union would have done a big public service by exposing how many TA Managers and Executives there are and how much they are paid. Then the public would be getting down hard on TA management, and not us small fry Transit workers who get paid peanuts for all the work we do. However, the Union President is in with TA Management anyway and this is how he is able to change contract terms in the middle of the contract and allow past givebacks. He is now taking a hard line because he knows his time is limited and election time is coming. Also, where are all the politicians who get PAC money from the Unions check off system? Not a word of support publicly from any of them. I would recommend all Union members stop having money taken from their paychecks for this wasteful political action committee- we all see that there are no political friends for Transit Workers.
(Stopping money for political contributions)
Forget it. We've tried at City Planning, and you'll spend weeks writing letters and get nowhere. The politicians have got it down cold. You used to pay bribes to get what you didn't deserve. Now you have to pay bribes just to get what you DO deserve, and sometimes you don't get it anyway. Think your situation is bad, just try opening a business in this town if you don't have lots of money to throw around for lawyers, consultants, expeditors, and other things.
I bet no strike.
This week I will be working in Long Island City. If there IS a strike I will take the LIRR from Flushing to Woodside and walk the 20 blocks or so to work. I would bike, but those cars will be packed in the morning as usual. And a Flushing--LIC bike ride is a bit much for me in the cold at 8AM. Not in the summer though.
I may be working in Manhattan the week after that, in Union Square, an easy walk from Penn Station, so I would be in good shape if a strike does occur.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Looks like in New York, even transit strikes there are important enough to become national news.
On this morning's NBC 10 News, there was a blurb about the contract expiring on Wednesday and that a public transit strike was illegal in NYC.
Saying LIRR riders will be OK in a strike is a lot like saying we F riders will be OK if the Manhattan Bridge is lost. Yes the service will run, but it will be horribly packed and, therefore, slow and unreliable. The subway is just too big to be accomodated by anything else.
I'll take "A", no strike. The union will also have radically new leadership (for better or for worse) at their next opportunity.
Chuck
I will give them credit for running the NORTH SOUTH soft VERY SOFT!!!
rail line int atlanta hartsfield airport BUT; TRY LIVING THERE AS I
DID DURING THE MIDDLE 1980'S and then folks you find out the real
truth about the 9 to 5 hours only toilet tissue cheap paper weak
transcards!!! computer push button trains with automatic off and on
breaking throwing you back and fourth like a yo yo !!!
the bus swipe the paper card backwards toward you EVEN WITH STANDING ROOM ONLY IN THE GEORGIA RAIN ( MARTA BUS ) and having to wait
forever to wait until the slow computer finally says """BEEP::""
then you are accused like i was on the #27monroe bus of making
COUNTERFIT CARDS ETC.. finally only 2 or 4 car trains service on
the weekends with packed rail stations packed into every 2 car train that runs only every hour or half hour??
MARTA THE BEST TRANSIT SYSTEM IN THE WORLD ???? WORLD?? HA! HA!
i am glad i dont live there anymore !!!!
This is beginning to sound like a broken record. Same babble every time.
While I've never been to Atlanta -- and probably never will -- they most likely have a better system than the piece of crap out here in Los Angeles. Heck, LA isn't really even a "system", it's just a LINE with a BRANCH.
Riding NYCT is like riding on a rock. They still use coil springs mechanical suspension on subway car trucks which causes a very hard ride. Other transit systems use air bags. NYCT needs to come in the 20th Century let alone the 21th Century.
Yea, whatever.
Do you agree?
Actually, I think one of the R-40 something seires cars use airbag suspensions.
Then again, the LIRR does too and their cars ride like crap anyway.
Only the R-110 uses airbags. The R-46 was built with them but they were removed when the trucks were replaced.
R-110 uses airbag suspension
SO WHAT? It is only two trains out of hundreds that run on NYCT everyday. I believe the R110A is out of service these days because it need repairs.
He says he'll encourage employers to have workers work from home. I'm up for it! But I'll bet that doesn't apply to HIS workers.
See Larry, I was right. Rudy plus Technology will save the day. As one who telecommutes already I'll say it's a mixed bag. But at least I'll be able to stroll down to Hylan Blvd with a cup of coffee in my hand on day one of the transit strike and watch the traffic (mostly one person per SUV) back up to Perth Amboy. So how's my old "F" train holding up these days? It used to be the best way to midtown from 18th Avenue. But the x3 has those plush MCI coaches.
(The old F train)
The F is consistent, but slow, and express buses do not stop in Windsor Terrace. I often walk across Prospect Park to the Brighton or IRT at Grand Army, or down to the BMT at 9th and 4th. It's the only exercise I have time for. If it's nice, I'll get out and walk over the bridge. I may be walking the whole way, soon.
I guess the F will be better, but more crowded, when the Manhattan Bridge dies. We'll get 12 G trains per hour, while the Lower F will get 28 F trains, 14 local and 14 express, all express from Church. The Brighton will be gone, as will the West End, with the N/R crawling through the tunnel as they do today.
The real interesting stuff is happening down in Kensington, now that guys like you are all moved out to Staten Island and Jersey. You've got yuppies swarming in from Windsor Terrace (earlier pushed from Park Slope). Lots of people I know from here buying houses down there. Meanwhile, you've got Orthodox pushing in from Borough Park, a booming Arab community, West Indians from Flatbush, and a cazillion Russians, a growing Mexican population, etc. Church Avenue near McDonald could be an interesting place to eat in a couple of years.
[The real interesting stuff is happening down in Kensington, now that guys like you are all moved out to Staten Island and Jersey. You've got yuppies swarming in from Windsor Terrace (earlier pushed
from Park Slope). Lots of people I know from here buying houses down there. Meanwhile, you've got Orthodox pushing in from Borough Park, a booming Arab community, West Indians from Flatbush, and a cazillion Russians, a growing Mexican population, etc. Church Avenue near
McDonald could be an interesting place to eat in a couple of years.]
It's nice that Kensington is becoming such an interesting neighborhood, but I'd never buy a house there. Not with the Manhattan Bridge, that's why.
"It's nice that Kensington is becoming such an interesting neighborhood, but I'd never buy a house there. Not with the Manhattan Bridge, that's why."
What does the F have to do with the Manhattan Bridge?
[[It's nice that Kensington is becoming such an interesting neighborhood, but I'd never buy a house there. Not with the Manhattan Bridge, that's why.]
[What does the F have to do with the Manhattan Bridge?]
If the Manhattan Bridge becomes totally unusable for the subway, property values throughout Brooklyn are likely to drop, quite considerably in many cases, because of the increased difficulty of commuting to Manhattan. Even areas along the lines that don't use the bridge are likely to suffer as the trains would become hopelessly jammed.
[[It's nice that Kensington is becoming such an interesting neighborhood, but I'd never buy a house there. Not with the Manhattan Bridge, that's why.]
[What does the F have to do with the Manhattan Bridge?]
If the Manhattan Bridge becomes totally unusable for the subway, property values throughout Brooklyn are likely to drop, quite considerably in many cases, because of the increased difficulty of commuting to Manhattan. Even areas along the lines that don't use the bridge are likely to suffer as the trains would become hopelessly jammed.
That is likely to affect all of South Brooklyn, all the way to Coney Island, because all those people are either dependent on the Bridge or will face massive overcrowding and a long commute if the Bridge is forced to close to train traffic.
While I was riding the Broad Ridge Spur southbound yesterday, (3;45 PM 12/9) I rode car 509 (front car). It seemed as if the train made less noise than the BSS trains. It did not make the sounds regular B-IVs make; it sounded more like an M-4 rather than a B-IV. What is happening?
Chevrolet trucks are sloganed as being "Built Like a Rock" NYCT cars are also built like a rock and ride like one also. At least Chevy trucks ride great.
Although I am not a very good candidate to know this, I want to know when you think that trains are least crowded. Out of the times I ride, especially on the MFSE, I would say reverse peak, i.e. peak hours, but not in the peak direction.
Sundays and any time after 10:30.
In NYC, 121st St on the J/Z was abandoned when I was there at around 9:45 am.
Ridership may be extremely light on Dec 16 :)
I have been on the MFSE on Sundays, and have seen it much more crowded than reverse peak.
A short time ago there was a great deal of talk of building a statue commemorating the unity and brotherhood that typified the relationship between the Brooklyn Dodgers' great double play combo of the late 40's and early 50's. Since that time the silence on that subject has been so great you could hear a pin drop. Has anything transpired to move things along and is Prospect Park station did in the hunt for the place of its resting place? I'm really into this, so if anyone in New York has any latest info on the subject I'm all ears.
I think I saw something about this in one of the small Brooklyn weekly papers. I think Rudy met with Pee Wee's son for a press conference/photo op. As far as I know, the location originally mentioned -- The Parade Grounds -- is the memorial's destination until we hear otherwise.
Doug aka BMTman
Question to Bob d - I vaguely remeber riding the Steinway trolley over the Queensboro Bridge in the early fifties(when I was in kindergarten at PS 150 Queens.).
Any chance of finding those trolleys???? Would they run on your system? If the answer is yes, it would be great to restore them to the original orange and White with black striping....
I think there may be 1 in Kingston, NY, but museums rarely give anything up.
12/12/99
[I think there may be 1 in Kingston,NY, but museums rarely give anything up.]
There is one at the Kingston's Trolley Museum of New York. #601 to be exact, a 1932 product of Osgood-Bradley. But don't get excited yet. 601 Is not restored in fact it's barely existing. Covered by a tarp, 601 and Atlantic City car #250 are both considered "basket cases". They've been moved from site to site and exposed to the elements for too long that it is not likely they can be restored. Totally rebuilt from the chassis up is more like it.
Bill Newkirk
I recently saw 601, the chassis and etc were laying on the ground between the trucks. Sad.
I recently saw 601, the chassis and etc were laying on the ground between the trucks. Sad.
live in atlanta a be transit dependent and or dont comlain about broken records los angeles even with four rail systems maybe second
place new jersey and new york gets my vothe as the best so there!!
anyone ""out there"" visited NEW YORK NEW YORK ( IN LAS VEGAS )
?????????? and if you did why no SUBWAY CARS?? noty even a model!!
if you hve visited las vegas and the ny ny hotel there , just
thought how could you build a hotel in las vegas and not have .......
... SOMETHING SUBWAY RELATED !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?????????
Calm down.
Although "New York, New York" did not have a subway train, the city was very well represented with replicas of the Statue of Liberty, most of the buildings of the Wall Street area, the Empire State and Chrylser buildings, some brownstone-type buildings and the Coney Island Cyclone (a working rollercoaster that is a lame attempt to copy the original). I too would have liked to have seen a subway train included in the fake skyline, but railfans probably don't represent a large segment of those who are attracted to a place like Sin City.
I came back from a four-day weekend at Caesar's last month, so I'm quite familiar with the area of The New Strip.
Doug aka BMTman
And the el (actually, the monorail between the MGM Grand and Bally's) is only three blocks away from New York, New York, if you can navigate your way through the MGM casino.
Yeah, it's a lame Vegas version of mass transit. I took a couple of pictures of it.
BTW, here's something of interest: my friend who lives out there had told me that the City of Las Vegas is in dire need of a rapid transit system (besides their small bus lines). The city's idea is to get Bally's and MGM Grand (and the other casinos) to help finance (50/50) an expanded version of the mono-rail system already in use. The idea is to run the line into the Vegas downtown business district.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm not sure what the land is like out there, but Las Vegas really could use a good subway on the strip. Each hotel could do a hotel-themed station (NY, NY should do City Hall). Would be really nice if they'd extend it to the airport.
right on !!! AND WITH RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!! get mad r 46 broken windows!
right on !!! AND WITH RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!! get mad r 46 broken windows!
a subway on the strip of las vegas !!
<< The city's idea is to get Bally's and MGM Grand (and the other casinos) to help finance (50/50) an expanded version of the mono-rail system already in use. The idea is to run the line into the Vegas downtown business district. >>
I heard this as well during my last trip to Vegas. Scuttlebutt has it that Steve Wynn (who seems to own half the strip hotels ) is balking at sharing the expense of building the expansion. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.
If you go by the shopping area and fast food joints at the NY NY there are some phoney entrances to the subway there. You could consider their rollarcoaster their subway/el
at least an ho model of the subway vidieo something!!! right
at least an ho model of the subway vidieo something!!! right
Salaam,
Give it up already. You push the issue to the point where it makes others not want to read your posts. Chill out
If this was USENET he would have been in my killfile long ago.
I agree wholeheartedly. For someone who said he was 50 years old, I wonder if he left out a decimal point in there somewhere.....
I sure wish this board had killfiles.
The reason Mr. Wynn is probably balking at having the monorail run into the downtown area (which technically would bring him even MORE people to his casinos) might have to do with the fact that if the monorail becomes a true mass transit line, this would mean the "high-rollers" and assorted tourists would be riding side-by-side with the general public, which could (and would) include the unsavory elements of Las Vegas (muggers/pickpockets/derelicts/homeless).
That could be the reason if not one of many others.
Doug aka BMTman
12/12/99
Transit in Sin City!! Hmmm!, great idea. A good way for us to unload some of those R-68's. The tourists can have a nice slow ride from casino to casino while taking a nice view on an elevated (concrete) structure. Alright , we'll let them have the R-110B's !
Bill Newkirk
The ride wouldn't be any slower than the CAT bus on the Strip, or even driving one's own car. Traffic in Las Vegas, at least on the Strip where all the casinos are at, moves slower tan molasses in January.
Not all is lost, however; there ARE quick ways to get from one end of the Strip to the other. Unfortunately, the cab drivers won't use them, as the meter works on time.....
I d rather take the CAT Bus then a cab on the strip, especially on a weekend. That is why Clark County wants to extend the Monorail, and the hell with Steve Wynn. I remember when the Mirage opend up, on The Strip and Sands. He wanted the County to change the name of the Street to Mirage Blvd, boy was he voted down, Ironic, there is no more Sands Hotel.
Nah, give them the R-44s.
Las Vegas needs a replica of the New York City subway to go with New York New York Casino and all the great landmarks. Steve Wynn should consider. When NYCT retires it cars it needs to go Vegas and several stations must be build like City Hall Loop station, Brooklyn Bridge and others. They can also import the subway smell like the smell on PATH which is GREAT.
COOL IDEA.
"They can also import the subway smell like the smell on PATH which is GREAT."
I never knew people actually enjoyed the smell of urine.
but what about the third rail 600 voltage smell ???
but why didnt new york n. y. las vegas import some scrapped
and or disused cars put them on tracks inside or outside the
hotel use them as "" museum cars "" like at the transit
museum etc??????????????
"but what about the third rail 600 voltage smell ???"
Voltage doesn't smell any more than length smells.
"[Museum cars at NY NY]"
BECAUSE IT'S NOT A TRAIN MUSEUM!!! Why don't you advocate giving more detail to everything else? Why not build a New York City Transit Casino and Hotel and put subway cars there. Then we can build a nice rubber room there for you. We can ask heypaul for the specifications of the room.
TAKE your heypaul and lay down on the third rail... mr E D train.... just because you are so dumb ask the transit museum
the museum cars give of the third rail high voltage smell
FINALLY PUT YOUR OWN SELF IN A RUBBER ROOM !!!! since you know so much about it you go there !!
And this is the message posted by a person who is sane?
As for voltage having an odor, if you think it can, you don't understand what it means. Does weight have voltage.
I will now stop responding to SubTalk's resident loon.
I would compare you to a child, but that would be insulting the intelligence and maturity of all three year olds.
you know the old saying IF YOU CANT STAY ON TOPIC OD SUB TALK
dont say nothing at all !!!!!!!
"dont say nothing at all !!!!!!!"
I promised not to ever again respond to you, but since you're telling me not to say nothing. I won't say nothing. I'll say something.
MR E. D. TRAIN IF YOU WOULD ONLY STAY ON TOPIC
using this discussion post fprum that DAVID PIRRMAN has
given us respond to who you like ignore what does not interest you LAY OFF OF YOUR SELF - HATE and 100% lunacy!!
tell us what you do beside racist attacks if you cant say
something nice to someone DONT SAY NOTHING AT ALL !!
have you looked at yourself in the mirroe MR E. D. TRAIN ??
how do you add to the good of this site and wonderful forum
?????????????????????????? EH ???????!!!!! grow up !!!!!!
The transit pornographer speaks, I shall listen!
mr E . D. TRAIN have you looked at yourself in the mirror lately??
READ WHERE IT SAYS OFF TOPIC HARRASSING POSTS WILL BE REMOVED
BY THE HOST !!!! stay on topic mr child insanity !!!
hi
hellow to you sir !!
12/15/99
Sallam,
THIRD RAIL SMELL ??? Well, that's a new one. I never sniffed a third rail but never had the urge to do so. However, the TA can arrest some graffitti and scratchitti artists and give them some Brillo pads and make them shine the those third rails!!
And of course we'll hunt down those responsible for making the railfan windows disappear and let them do chin ups on the catenary !!
Bill Newkirk
I harassed you? Instead you make an immature response to my jokes, and you show off the FOOL you really are.
You know something, most people are sick of your messages, which resemble a broken record more than coherent paragraphs.
look at your self in the mirror and see who is sick!!
at least my posts ARE NOT RACIST AHD HARRASSING LIKE YOURS AND ON
TOPIC cant say that afout the FOOL YOU ARE MR E. D. TRAIN??
"at least my posts ARE NOT RACIST"
Can someone tell me which of my posts are racist? We all know that there are some people out there who are wretched losers who also happen to be black and have to cry racism whenever the 6 billion people who are better than they point that out.
look at your self in the mirror and see who is sick!!
at least my posts ARE NOT RACIST AHD HARRASSING LIKE YOURS AND ON
TOPIC cant say that ABOUT the FOOL YOU ARE MR E. D. TRAIN??
This guy is obviously an IDIOT. Thank goodness he is on the WEST coast
Doug aka BMTman is right - calm down already. You act like a 10-year old on a sugar high.
Obviously you weren't awake when you visited New York New York in Las Vegas.
Go up to the "station" for the roller coaster, and you'll see that it was themed to look like an elevated station, complete with the ugly yellow handrailings, the corrugated metal wall panels and lots of grafitti which was put there when the place was built. The only thing that roller coaster station is missing is the urine smell.
To ride the roller coaster, you pay your fare -- it was $5.00 when I rode it two years ago -- and you get a token, which looks like a larger version of the large NYCTA tokens, says "Good for one fare" on it like the NYCTA tokens, has "NYNY" in the middle instead of "NYC", and then to get on the ride, you deposit the token into a turnstile.
And the roller coaster itself, once you leave the station, circles around the back of the hotel before climbing up -- and that stretchof "track" had catwalks, and even had a signal, to make it look like an elevated. Unfortnately, the theming stops there. The roller coaster trains themelves are painted yellow with checker-strips on them to resemble taxicabs. I think if I had some say-so there, I'd have done them silver with blue stripes.... :-)
There is also a large station-size Subway Map on the wall, covered in plexiglass, in one of the alcoves along the "NY street", which had a grafittied a USA Today newspaper vending machine and some beatup garbage can props as well. I can't remember the name of the "station", but I do remember it even listed the Station Manager's name and phone number.
The coaster did add some sound effects inside the casino, though probably not planned. The sound of the coaster as it made its circuit outside, would reverberate through the steel frame of the building. If you were in a quiet(!) area, such as the rest rooms, the sound of the coaster in the background was remindful of the sounds of the subway that you hear in adjacent buildings, say in Rocefeller Center or Times Square.
We all know the NYCTA is screwed up. They MTA board have profited from
the workers, while rewarding them little. Just like a lot of private companies as well, where the people at the top make alot, while the workers make little. But leaving the whole city of New York stranded, anger will be directed toward the workers and strikers, not the people at the top.
Most of the TA workers here have expressed they are planning on striking, and in my opinion, it is a terrorist act that will jam city streets with traffic, get people fired from their jobs, and make the most needy (sweatshop workers, busboys) walk to work, possibly not getting sleep because they must work in order to survive.
The TA workers make very valid points, but by striking, you hold the innocent people of New York hostage.
And the end result would be that the way the MTA is run will never change. By treating your riders like garbage and stranding them, you will not get their support. Thus the MTA will continue the bloated way it is. Perhaps if you didn't strike, and instead convince riders of the way you are treated, perhaps than you'd get the people of New York behind you. I support changing the MTA, and trimming the salaries at the top, and spending more on neccesary improvements, better benefits and salaries for workers, and keeping the fare from going up. But, you'll alienate all your support, including mine, if you leave me and millions of others stranded.
Just remember if you don't move the people of New York, you hold them hostage. Thus I have to support blocking of a strike, with a court injunction backed with force if neccesary. Terrorism will not be tolerated, and stopping the buses and subways equals terrorism. Don't hold innocent people hostage for your cause, no matter how true or important it is.
A subway strike is not "terrorism". Although it seems like government spokesmen like to expand the definition of that word as much as they can, the word does have a specific meaning. It refers to acts of violence. Specifically, acts of violence conducted in populated areas that are intended to cause people to fear for their physical safety. Acts of terrorism kill people, or at least have the potential to do so. No one will die as a result of a subway strike. People will be significantly inconvenienced, yes. But they will not die, nor will they reasonably fear that they are likely to. So it isn't terrorism. That is a word that shouldn't be thrown around lightly.
A strike is not terrorism, but terrorism could be associated with the strike.
For example, what if the TWU walks off in the middle of the workday, stranding people in what could become a dangerous situation. Or worse, in the middle of a bus or subway run, stranding people on trains?
How about violence directed against property? What if a few hotheads start destroying the transit system?
Hopefully, if there is a strike, no terroism will be involved. The workers will complete their runs, secure the stations and depots, turn in the keys, and go home. Otherwise, TWU members will have few friends left on this board, or in the city. It would be a good idea if responsible union members kept a watch on their brothers and sisters during any job action. I'm not sure the TWU is unified and disciplined enough to hold an illegal strike without acts of terrorism.
Well people may actually die, indirectly, if there is severe gridlock and fire/ambulance vehicles can't move.
Well since you feel so strongly...... Our problems are so very much outweighed by the public's need that you resorted to equating a strike to such a horrible act of violence, I decided to equate the Authority's managers to another group of thugs.
See the effect? No way better to demonstarte absurdetty than more absurdedness.
You are holding people hostage, keeping them from surviving, by stopping the trains. You can singlehandedly, make people starve, jam city streets, and shut the city down, all for your own benefit. That is why I think police and military should make the trains and buses run by arresting anyone who walks off the job. Hopefully that court injunction will do exactly that.
In places like Singapore, this is the approach they take toward people who try to screw up other peoples lives, and it works quite well. Clean streets, safe, reliable public transit, and a public workforce that really cares about the people, this is Singapore.
If NYCT goes on strike, I might take a more serious thought into relocating there, as many other people and businesses have already.
I don't care what it takes, if China can tame the Yangzee, then the City of New York should be able to keep it's public workforce from walking away from the people, even if it means police (even military) in every subway train, bus, and station to make sure they run. A stable state must be ensured, if we cannot give the people that, we are living in an anarchy.
"Don't dare let the people of this city down, because if you try, a cop will be standing right next to your train (or bus) ready to arrest you!"
(Singapore)
There is this big issue in Asia -- which will become the financial center of the Pacific, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokoyo, Kuala Lupur, Shanghi? All want to be the equivalent of NY or London.
When the Prime Minister (or whatever he is) of Singapore was in town, I was asked to write a briefing memo on the place. I asked my wife, a bank examiner, if law-and-order Singapore was willing the race to become the New York of Asia. She said that many large international finance companies are reluctant to operate there because, among other things, chewing gum is illegal (because some was getting stuck on the brand new subway). They don't want half their employees to end up in jail.
I wouldn't want NY to become Singapore.
[You are holding people hostage, keeping them from surviving, by stopping the trains. You can singlehandedly, make people starve, jam city streets, and shut the city down, all for your own benefit. That is why I think police and military should make the trains and buses run by arresting anyone who walks off the job. Hopefully that court injunction will do exactly that.]
Let's not get too excited here. Yes, a transit strike would be a huge inconvenience for millions of people. No denying that. But it will *not* be an Armageddon-type catastrophe that will send the city back to the Stone Ages. Most people are more resourceful that you might imagine, and they'll slowly but surely find a way to adjust. They'll set up informal carpools, enterprising types will expand "dollar van" services, bicycling and walking will be an option even in winter weather, and many employers will find a way for people to work out of their homes. None of these are remotely close to a perfect situation, but taken together the city will survive. As I've said before, the biggest threat of a transit strike is that some employers will decide to relocate outside the city, but that's not likely to become an issue unless the strike drags on for at least a couple of months.
[You are holding people hostage, keeping them from surviving, by stopping the trains. You can singlehandedly, make people starve, jam city streets, and shut the city down, all for your own benefit. That is why I think police and military should make the trains and buses run by arresting anyone who walks off the job. Hopefully that court injunction will do exactly that.]
Let's not get too excited here. Yes, a transit strike would be a huge inconvenience for millions of people. No denying that. But it will *not* be an Armageddon-type catastrophe that will send the city back to the Stone Ages. Most people are more resourceful that you might imagine, and they'll slowly but surely find a way to adjust. They'll set up informal carpools, enterprising types will expand "dollar van" services, bicycling and walking will be an option even in winter weather, and many employers will find a way for people to work out of their homes. None of these are remotely close to a perfect situation, but taken together the city will survive. As I've said before, the biggest threat of a transit strike is that some employers will decide to relocate outside the city, but that's not likely to become an issue unless the strike drags on for at least a couple of months.
I totally agree. I've been through 2 strikes. The one in 1966 (I was a kid in school and very happy to see my Christmas Recess extended), and the one in 1980. From what I remember, the 1966 strike crippled the City for 6 days. People were a lot more resourseful in 1980. I was an adult and working in 1980. I was living in Queens at the time. I rode with a co-worker in his car to Red Hook in grid lock conditions, then walked to the Brooklyn Bridge, walked over the Bridge and finally to the World Trade Center where I was working at the time. It took 2 1/2 to 3 hours to go one way, but I went to and from work. Many other people did the same thing. A co-worker of mine that was living in Flatbush at the time rode his bicycle all the way in. One exception, anyone with a bicycle was not permitted to ride it over the bridge. They had to walk it over the bridge. We had near-normal attendance at work during the 1980 strike. Even the people from Long Island made it in. I don't recall any strike-related fatalaties. There was no shortages either. The City will survive this.
The City will survive, but if they took a strike seriously, it could be far better prepared.
My plan:
1) Issue special licenses to operate private vans to anyone with a clean record, contact with rental companies to bring in vans from across the country. A court has found the City has the right to issue licenses to vans if there is a need, by the City Council keeps issuing moratoria and slowing the process down to keep out competition. Giuliani and Pataki should say it's an emergency and issue permanent licenses. Also, private vans should be allowed to use bus stops, permamently.
2) Set up car service stands on the main street of every neighborhood, where car services are allowed to pick up passengers from the street, individually or in groups. These, too, should be permanent.
3) Designate bus, van and carpool only streets. In Brooklyn these would be 4th Avenue, Coney Island Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Bushwick Avenue. Ban on-street parking on these streets.
4) Encourage these services to discharge in Downtown Brooklyn, in Long Island City, and in the Hub. No SOV cars at all in Manhattan.
5) Have managers run the 2/3/4/5 IRT from Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn to the Hub 149th in the Bronx, and the #7 from Times Square to Queensboro Plaza only. On the 2/3/4/5, have both the locals and the expresses make express stops only -- Manhattanites can walk part of the way to give outer borough people a chance. Permanently: spin off the IRT as a separate division, with a separate contract, that expires at a different time.
The City will survive, but if they took a strike seriously, it could be far better prepared.
My plan:
1) Issue special licenses to operate private vans to anyone with a clean record, contact with rental companies to bring in vans from across the country. A court has found the City has the right to issue licenses to vans if there is a need, by the City Council keeps issuing moratoria and slowing the process down to keep out competition. Giuliani and Pataki should say it's an emergency and issue permanent licenses. Also, private vans should be allowed to use bus stops, permamently.
2) Set up car service stands on the main street of every neighborhood, where car services are allowed to pick up passengers from the street, individually or in groups. These, too, should be permanent.
3) Designate bus, van and carpool only streets. In Brooklyn these would be 4th Avenue, Coney Island Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Bushwick Avenue. Ban on-street parking on these streets.
4) Encourage these services to discharge in Downtown Brooklyn, in Long Island City, and in the Hub. No SOV cars at all in Manhattan.
5) Have managers run the 2/3/4/5 IRT from Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn to the Hub 149th in the Bronx, and the #7 from Times Square to Queensboro Plaza only. On the 2/3/4/5, have both the locals and the expresses make express stops only -- Manhattanites can walk part of the way to give outer borough people a chance. Permanently: spin off the IRT as a separate division, with a separate contract, that expires at a different time.
Your plan is very good except for 1 thing. Having managers run trains is what caused the Malbone St. wreck. They would have to be management staff with motorman experience, managers promoted from motorman. Also, I don't know if there are any peculiar differences between operating a Redbird vs. operating an R-62. If there are, these ex-motormen could run a pure fleet of Redbirds during a strike. I agree with everything else in your strike contingency plan.
I assumed the managers would have T/O and signal experience. That's why I suggested such a small system. After all, with the alleged 5,000 managers, if you used them all, you could probably operate the entire subway.
I assumed the managers would have T/O and signal experience. That's why I suggested such a small system. After all, with the alleged 5,000 managers, if you used them all, you could probably operate the entire subway.
Why the hell does the TA need 5,000 managers! Talk about more chiefs than Indians!
It doesn't need 5,000 managers. That's why there are only 2,500-3,000 people classified as "managerial."
Remember also that many of these managers did not come from the ranks of Train Operator or Bus Operator and would have to be trained (and, in the case of Bus Operator, licensed with a CDL) to operate trains or buses. Additionally, some of the managers who DID come from the ranks of Train Operator haven't done it for so long that they'd have to be re-qualified. By the time all this training/re-training is done, the strike (if there is one) would long be over.
David
[[I assumed the managers would have T/O and signal experience. That's why I suggested such a small system. After all, with the alleged 5,000 managers, if you used them all, you could probably operate the entire subway.]]
[Why the hell does the TA need 5,000 managers! Talk about more chiefs than Indians!]
It doesn't need 5,000 managers. That's why there are only 2,500-3,000 people classified as "managerial."
That's even too many.
It works out to somewhere around 7.5% of the NYCT's work force. Does anyone here have statistics on NYC's managers as a percentage of its total work force, or NYS's, or the federal government's, or private industry's?
David
[[It doesn't need 5,000 managers. That's why there are only 2,500-3,000 people classified as "managerial."]]
[That's even too many.]
I would guess that's about comparable to my private employer's percentage. And it's probably lower than the percentage at my former one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Should the TA charge a fare with this limited service?
(Limited service: IRT from Downtown Brooklyn, the Hub, and Queensboro operated by managers with experss stops only on local and express, other stations closed -- should they charge a fare?)
No fare. If the riders have to rely on bikes, walking, carpools and private vans to get that far, then the TA should transport them into and around Manhattan for free.
Its a moot point -- posters who know say the MTA did not look ahead, and does not have enough managers qualified to run trains and signals for even that limited network. And the city did not attempt to pre-qualify potential additional private van drivers based on their driving record, or to prepare to rent additional vans from rental companies from around the country. Woefully unprepared -- a disgrace really.
If there is a strike, if its fair for the TWU to hit the riders in this dispute, its fair for the riders to hit the TWU. Some TWU members on this board see the riders as unfortunate bystanders, but others indicate a desire to hurt us just to hurt us.
What about the managers? Retaliate against them? Since they WON'T be operating a limited system, and won't be providing any services to the people of NYC, why not lay them off? After all, the mood around here is ugly, and it is entirely possible that I'll be fined or fired if I don't get here.
[Set up car service stands on the main street of every neighborhood, where car services are allowed to pick up passengers from the street, individually or in groups. These, too, should be permanent.]
Taking this one step further, these stands could be used by ordinary motorists who want to drive into Manhattan but need to pick up riders in order to meet the HOV restrictions. This sort of arrangement ("slugging") is commonplace on the Bay Bridge in San Francisco and at a couple of highways leading into Washington.
Here's a better idea. The union realizes the folly of using straphangers as pawns in their negotiations, and to avoid breaking the law, publically renounces it's intention to strike and concentrates on working out some agreement.
And of course nobody will ever take them seriously.
The only way the TWU can avoid the strike is to make a compromise by Midnight Tuesday. If they don't, then no strike will ruin their credibility.
But it will boost their image in the eyes of bus and subway riders, perhaps creating the political climate when the next contract is up for a substantial raise. Sympathy and the goodwill of the public can be a powerful weapon at the negotiating table.
DON'T YOU THINK WE'VE BEEN DOING THAT?
Why do you insist that we are greedy selfish ogres? Haven't you read ANYTHING that I have posted?
From this point on I suggest that everyone stop taking what you post seriously, as you have become nothing more than an apologist for transit management, a hack for lack of a better term.
You have perpetuted lies and opinion as truth. In the face of hard fact you continue to spout the Authority's party line in the name of the riding public. Which is nothing more than bashing the men and women who move New York.
I have tried to remain civil, but sir, you are dispicible.
There are differences today. One is that there are a lot more people who rely on subway service to get into the city, thanks to the system's recovery from the fiscally disastrous 70's. In 1980, anybody who didn't have to use the subway didn't. Most of the financial instutitions had to put their workforce up in hotels (which cost them big-time, as vacancy rates plummeted and hotel owners engaged in some serious price-gouging, which went almost unnoticed), and retail shopping in an already economically depressed time went down sharply.
This time it's happening at the worst time (Christmas shopping season). There will be a heavy price to pay, no matter how long the strike lasts. Which is why it cannot be allowed to happen.
It already has cost the city as of right now. The Mayor has had to put contigency plans into place, which has cost money. even if a contract is agreed pon today, the mere threat of a strike has cost taxpayers millions of dollars.
Not to mention that it's pissed Guiliani off. One thing I've learned is that during his reign as mayor, those who piss Guiliani off pay big time.
I can't believe all the animosity I'm reading the past few weeks against the transit workers. I always heard NY was a union town I guess I'm wrong. I am always with labor. I pride myself to try never to cross any picket line. Inconveniences?? Tough!!! We will survive!!!
Now, c'mon guys, lets get behind them!!!
You have the right attitude, Jeff.
People might rag on Labor activists when there is a strike due to the inconvenience, but all Americans should realize that if it weren't for strong unions this country would still have children doing hard labor and adults getting paid like endentured slaves in sweatshop conditions where fire saftey would be ignored as well as basic human rights (like going to the bathroom).
Doug aka BMTman
Unions serve a purpose, and I'm glad they exist. But I'm not gonna support the demands of one if I truly feel they are being irresponsible. Let's get something straight. Unions are designed to look out for the self-interest of their members, and them alone. Sometimes that conflicts with the general good. Unions, at one time were instituted to prevent workers from exploitation. To that end they have been remarkably successful. None of today's safety and child labor laws would have been possible without their fight. But things have changed. TWU workers don't simply get fired if they hurt themselves on the job. We don't have 12 yo boys sweeping trains 15 hours a day for under minimum wage. Comparing today's unions to those of the past is totally ludicrous.
They still do. Come on down to Chinatown, Elmhurst, or Brooklyn. I don't see any unions trying to help these poor Chinese women!
"They still do. Come on down to Chinatown, Elmhurst, or Brooklyn."
You must think very lowly of Brooklyn, if you group it with mere localities.
This is 161 Street, change for the 5
This train will be running Skip/Stop with the 14 train.
For service to Claremont Parkway - Crotona Park, Tremont Avenue, change here for the 14 Train.
The next stop on this 2 train will be 169 Street, followed by Southern Boulevard, then 180 Street, where change will be available for the 14 and Q trains.
I don't think low of Brooklyn, but there are many areas that have sweatshops and illegal garment factories there. Since most people refer to Brooklyn as Brooklyn, not a particular part, I figured no harm, didn't mean to offend anyone.
Reality is, sweatshops and garment factories are all over NYC, those places I named are just several locations.
mr E. D. TRAIN they are locking themselves in "" rubber rooms"
you need to go there too !!!!
That's not true of the TWU.
In the last year we have tried to organize several transit properties in the area. The double decker tour buseses was a succesful one.
The Kawasaki Heavy Industries plant in Yonkers was an unsuccesful one. There the management has used intimidation and deceit to coerce the eployees into not joining a union. After the workers voted to join, they were fired en masse.
KHI got away with it because they were not actual employees of KHI but temp workers hired by a third party man power agency. This is typical in the rail car industry. I know first hand, as I got my start in the business there. Working alongside Transit workers who made twice what I did and with better benifits, I did more wrk than they did, because I was in a non union operation.
So please don't think that this union is standidng idly by as other workers get exploited. A victory for us is a victory for all transport workers.
As a former Teamster Shop Steward I can tell you that what this T/O is telling you is correct. The OTHER problem is that the mind set of the current generation is anti-union. They don't seem to understand the value of a union to balance mngt. desire to maximise profits at the expense of the workers.
The company I currently work for doesn't have that attitude & it makes it a very pleasent place to work !
To Chris & others who are beating up on the TWU ... the key here is a balance. If mngt. & union are about equal at the bargining table then they're willing to talk, but if one thinks it's holding all the cards then the other looses big time. If it's mngt. the fare goes up ... a lot, if it's union the public looses again due to lower levels of service ... and 100 bosses with big sticks won't be able to solve the problem.
I hear that progress is being made despite all the sabor rattling. We'll just have to wait to see if one side WON bigger then the other.
Mr t__:^)
(While working as a contractor, I did more work than union members who were getting twice the pay).
That's why unions get so little sympathy. Its not the additional pay, its the idea that union workers are encouraged to do a bad job, and less work, and that the worst employees are the once protected by the union. Where I work, the less work a person does, the more likely they are to show up at a union meetings.
The pro-union oldtimers say that isn't the way it was -- union workers demanded more pay, but did a better job, and were better trained. And I don't think its true of the TWU anymore, but most people think of the 1970s. You guys should have voted for that media campaign.
Cetainly, if I were a TA employee, I'd want to be able to apply for the line closest to my house. You'd thing the TA would go out of its way to accomodate such a request. The private sector does. But that's what you get in a rule-based bureaucracy -- give them minimum, get the minimum.
It is a union town. More so than most areas of this country. But knee-jerk support for a union just isn't gonna happen anymore. You have to justify yourself these days.
But the TWU DOES HAVE somelegitimate gripes. Some of what they are upset about are not frivolous demands. If they strike (which I hope does not happen) they have the right to do so -- Taylor Law be damned!
Doug aka BMTman
I know they do. But the law precludes them from striking to get them dealt with. Didn't everyone who applied for their transit job understand that? This law is not new.
Actually, the law doesn't ban strikes, it only penalizes them. All of the employees know about that and if they want to go on strike, they know full well what they will lose.
Good point. They know the consequences, so no member of the TWU can cry if the strike happens and the State sends the union a bill.
BTW, wasn't the TWU union leader arrested and jailed for contempt of court during the 66 strike?
Yes, that was Mike Quill and he died in jail during that strike if I remember correctly.
(Mike Quill died in jail).
Under the Sidewalks says that Quill had a heart attack in jail, was rushed to the hospital, and recovered. But some months later he had a second heart attack and died. He probably survived the first one because he was in jail -- in Manhattan ambulances don't move so well during a transit strike.
... and he wasn't buried right away due to a strike of cemetery workers. Quill must've been smiling in his grave.
--Mark
Sorry. Guess I was wrong. But I was only 13 at the time!
This is true.
At this time (Tue 12:30pm), I thought I heard that the City got an injunction against a transit strike which would now make one illegal. So what are the implications of one now?
--Mark
Perceptions don't always comport with reality. Unionization rates in NYC, expressed as a percentage of the labor force, are about the same as the nationwide average. Public-sector, construction and health care jobs are bastions of unionization, while most other sectors are largely non-union.
Ony 21% of the national workforce nationwide is unionized. Most manufacturing jobs have fled to right-to-work states in the South, or even outside the US where regulation is almost non-existant. Drive upstate to where most of the manufacturing jobs in this state once were. Not a pretty sight.
As a Marxist professor once told me, you can only be rich if other people are poor. So what if you earn a million dollars a year? If everyone else does too, you still won't be able to afford a maid.
When unions were king, that union paycheck went a long way because you were buying from NON-UNION people who earned dirt. That's what most people in NYC are right now. The police/TWU get very large raises, they will have to pay more in fares and taxes, UNLESS they also get big raises, in which case TWU members and policy will have to pay more for everything too, and everyone is right back where they were. Want to pay $10 for a Big Mac? Just raise the wages of the people who make them to your level. But then, your salary won't be what it was.
Now, you might like to say "lets take the money from the millionaires not the riders and restaurant workers." Ah, but we ALREADY take more from the millionaires in NYC than anywhere else. Take even more and they leave, and you get nothing.
People understand this -- more for the unions is less for them. So the unions have to make a case that what they are asking is fair RELATIVE TO THE REST OF US. Money doesn't drop from the sky.
I'm willing to pay a little more at the farebox. Others are not. And a stike will make everyone earning less than the average TWU member very angry.
In the end, the only way we all get ahead is higher productivity. But unions are thought to be anti-productivity, because that means fewer dues paying members, even if the remaining members are better paid.
Just a follow up, Jeff. Why are all the F__KING unions endorsing Al Gore and not Bill Bradley. Because they already get health benefits, that's why, and those with senioritiy are not worried about getting laid off and losing them.
If Bill Bradley had his way, EVERYONE would have health insurance. Union members would either have to pay higher taxes, or higher prices, to make that happen. The Union motto -- keep the non-union working poor non-union and poor! This just outrages me. My union -- closed shop -- takes my dues and gives it to Al Gore?
You wonder why all those people who will be laid off, or docked pay, because they can't get to their low wage jobs aren't pro-union?
I have a health plan. I'm satisfied with it. I wish all working Americans could have access to one. But I would fight vigourously anything that would make my present plan more expensive, or my tax rates higher. What should be done? Extend medicare benefits to those who work, but are barely at the poverty level. Believe it or not, elimination of waste and fraud would easily pay for the expanded coverage.
I have a health plan. I'm satisfied with it. I wish all working Americans could have access to one. But I would fight vigourously anything that would make my present plan more expensive, or my tax rates higher. What should be done? Extend medicare benefits to those who work, but are barely at the poverty level. Believe it or not, elimination of waste and fraud would easily pay for the expanded coverage.
The waste and fraud is not being committed by the public. Its being committed by the medical profession - doctors (they're not rich enough), hospitals, pharmacies - they are the cheats. Its even worse with Medicaid than it is with Medicare. With Medicaid, the patient has no out-of-pocket expense, so doctors and hospitals will really take advantage referring the patient to all kinds of specialists unnecessarily, and also for unnecessary tests. Did you ever go to the hospital (inpatient or outpatient) for anything and not have to argue about an error (always in their favor, not yours) in your bill? The medical profession is milking all the insurance companies, just as well as Medicaid and Medicare. I went for tests at the hospital and never received a bill. Down the road, out of the clear blue, I received a letter from a collection agency demanding payment and threatening my credit. When I got through with the hospital's billing department and threatened to sue for their negligance in turning me over to a collection agency without my ever receiving a bill, they zeroed out my $600 balance, apologozed and told me I owe nothing. I cringe every time I have to deal with a hospital for any kind of tests. That wasn't the first time they screwed up my bill. It was just the worst incident.
My family is constantly getting calls from collection agencies for bill's we've allready paid. It takes like an hour of "phone tag" to get things straightened out again.
My family is constantly getting calls from collection agencies for bill's we've allready paid. It takes like an hour of "phone tag" to get things straightened out again.
It shouldn't be happening in the first place. Its pure negligence on the part of some airhead that let it happen. Besides, the calls you're referring to are probably not from collection agencies. They are probably from the billing department. You will know when you've been turned over to a collection agency. The name of the company is different from the company you owed money to, and the company name will blatantly indicate it to be a collection agency. Also, they will not call you until they've sent you a notice in the mail and have given you a reasonable time to contact them to dispute the debt. If you've been turned over to a collection agency wrongfully, they are not the ones you should be speaking to. You should be speaking to a supervisor of the billing office that screwed up and turned you over to the collection agency in the first place. The supervisor at the hospital's billing department knew that I would have them dead to right in a lawsuit. That's why she zeroed out my $600+ balance on my account and told me I owed nothing. Hey, its not just the harassment from the collection agency, but the fact that they have the power to destroy an impeccable credit history. You don't wrongfully mess with someone's credit history.
It s not the doctors or Hospitals anymore it is the F+ckin Bean Counters at the Insurance Companies who raise the rates and cut services. My Mom is 91, the doctors will take what Medicare Pays them, but her Pharmacy bills run too high. One pill is $1.50 for her kidney, that is a piece. Why do we have the highest RX fees in the world? Now her Insurance company (GHI) is telling her she has to use a mail order pharmacy, which takes too long to get a new rx. I am getting off thsubject of Transit.
Why? I see your point.
The TWU has raised prices to a high articificial level in this city (and actually, I'd have convicts cleaning stations like they do in other cities). And get this. If these idiots strike and heaven forbid because of these idiots and their short-sighted leadership and their vanting to take their frustration out on the citizens of the City, many people will be put in peril. To that, if the strike causes any deaths because a care giver or doctor can't get to a hospital to treat people, then the union should be held accountable.
That's why these people are such scum. 27% over 3 years? That's being held hostage. No one gets that. And you union people, least of all deserve it.
Agreed it is doctors and lawyers (big suprise there) who profit from fraud. But a vigorous fight against fraud would recoup enough money to expand medicaid coverage for millions of uninsured poor people.
Agreed it is doctors and lawyers (big suprise there) who profit from fraud. But a vigorous fight against fraud would recoup enough money to expand medicaid coverage for millions of uninsured poor people.
Something needs to be done about the inequities of medical coverage. If you're rich, or have a good job, you have good medical coverage. If you're poor and qualify for Medicaid, you have even better medical coverage. For those in-between, they either have poor or no medical coverage. All I know is that the cost of medical insurance keeps skyrocketing, forcing you to accept lesser coverage at a higher premium. What employers offer in relation to what they used to offer reflects this. If you're self-employed like I am, and have to pay for your own coverage without an employer kicking in something, it is much worse. I agree that the uninsured people should have coverage, but what about those like me, who pay through the nose just to get standard HMO coverage? Not all the self-employed are raking in the money either. It does have its advantages, though. Nobody is going to talk down to me, threaten me, discipline me or fire me. The down side is that customers can be just as much a pain in the a**! You can't really do anything to piss them off either, if you want their business and their word-of-mouth recommendation. The recommendation can go a long way.
I completely disagree. I don't believe socializing medical care is a good idea. If you have money, you deserve the right to whatever plan you want. I do believe that we should have some system that guarantees basic care to everyone.
I completely disagree. I don't believe socializing medical care is a good idea. If you have money, you deserve the right to whatever plan you want. I do believe that we should have some system that guarantees basic care to everyone.
I never said that I believed in socialized medicine. All I'm saying is that the rich and the poor have the best medeical coverage, whereas the struggling lower middle class (if there's still any such thing) gets kicked in the butt. I said I was self-employed. I didn't say anything to the effect that I make loads of money. I struggle financially. I just don't have the headaches of being f***ed over by a superviser or a boss. As for medical insurance, the cost of it is going through the roof. The cost of it needs to be regulated and put in line with everything else. If it isn't, this country will be forced into socialized medicine. That is exactly what I want to avoid. If you allow greedy doctors and the like to keep taking pieces of the pie, soon, there won't be any pie left. That's when the government takes over. Then you see piss-poor medical services; doctors on salary that care less about the patient than they do now. Its the damn doctors and the damn hospitals with their greed that have caused the cost of medical care and medical insurance to go haywire. The medical profession has become a big racket. Doctors don't care about their patients anymore. All they care about is $$$. When I was a kid in the early and middle 1960's, doctors made house calls. They didn't work banker's hours. They worked days, nights and Saturdays. The latest I had a doctor come to the house was 10 pm. If you were sick with a fever, they came. I remember an office visit was $3 and a house visit was $5. Back then, medical insurance was in case you had an accident or needed to go into the hospital. Otherwise, you paid the doctor cash from your wallet, and same thing with prescriptions.
Three words.
Medical savings accounts.
These would be a phenomenal way for the union membership to increase their savings and for the TA to decrease their spending on health care. With no reduction in the services provided and a choice of doctors.
So, I guess it's on topic -- but barely.
Chuck
Just a follow up, Jeff. Why are all the F__KING unions endorsing Al Gore and not Bill Bradley. Because they already get health benefits, that's why, and those with senioritiy are not worried about getting laid off and losing them.
If Bill Bradley had his way, EVERYONE would have health insurance. Union members would either have to pay higher taxes, or higher prices, to make that happen. The Union motto -- keep the non-union working poor non-union and poor! This just outrages me. My union -- closed shop -- takes my dues and gives it to Al Gore?
You wonder why all those people who will be laid off, or docked pay, because they can't get to their low wage jobs aren't pro-union?
Unions have always supported the Democratic party. Its automatic, no matter who's running. They supported Clinton. The unions always push for their members to vote for the Democrat. I didn't vote for Clinton in 1992 or 1996, and I'm not voting for Gore.
Unfortunatly, the marxist theory that affluence is gained at the expense of others has been rendered as false by history. Capitalism creates wealth from nothing. Marxism divides a fixed amount of wealth among the people. If you can't create wealth, you're doomed. That's why communism is collapsing all over the world.
But everyone cannot be wealthy simply because they are relative. If one has the least amount of wealth, then they will be considered poor. If the lowest class were to live like our wealthy today, experiencing those luxuries, it would still be considered "poverty."
That's why there will always be the poor, because someone will always lag behind.
The urge to have more than the guy who lives next door to you is what killed communism. It's basic human nature.
Yep, greed is human nature.
And one of the problems of Capitalism is that to have a wealthy class there must be a marginalized underclass (ie, someone to clean the toilets and be the nanny).
The Soviet version of Communism wasn't true Communism in the Marxist sense. Even in so-called Communist Russia there were different classes of people. The upper-class were those in the inner circle of the government. And of course there were working class people as well as middle-class types. The Red Chinese on the other hand had true Communism as their society was almost "beehive" in nature. There everyone in the same neighborhood -- and perhaps across the country-side would wake up at about the same time do Kalistenics and then head out to work in the fields or the factories (all dressed identically and mostly riding bicycles).
Sorry about the "lecture" on Russian vs. Chinese Communism (I know it is waaaaaay off topic).
Doug aka BMTman
True capitalism allows opportunities for the underclass to escape their position in society. Communism pideon-holes you into a specific class, and doesn't allow you to better yourself. That's the fundamental flaw in all forms of communism.
OK, now I gotta stop going off topic....but the strike talk has worn me down a bit.
The Soviet version of Communism wasn't true Communism in the Marxist sense. Even in so-called Communist Russia there were different classes of people. The upper-class were those in the inner circle of the government. And of course there were working class people as well as middle-class types. The Red Chinese on the other hand had true Communism as their society was almost "beehive" in nature. There everyone in the same neighborhood -- and perhaps across the country-side would wake up at about the same time do Kalistenics and then head out to work in the fields or the factories (all dressed identically and mostly riding bicycles).
Marxist doctrine calls for a classless society where the state eventually withers away.
HA HA HA, HE HE HE!!!
No Marxist state ever achieved either. In the old Soviet Union, just as in China, the privileged class is the Communist Party members. The higher you are in the Party, the more privileged. Those who aren't Party members are the working class who have no privileges and no rights.
I'm sorry sir but a transit strike would be more than an inconvenience for the millions of New Yorkers who have families to support, and mouths to feed.
Absolutley. Many people don't get paid if the can't get to work. Many people can't afford to miss even one day.
I don't think any of these young Chinese women who must get to work in order to feed their families are going to support you.
After all, they need those trains and buses to get to work of they will starve!
Alot of people in this city have low wage jobs, especially immigrants.
Their only way around is buses and subways, and they can't afford taxis. What the hell are they going to do? They don't have a choice, they starve if our "friendly and caring" TA workers walk out. It's that simple. HAVE A HEART!
Starve? One day's pay would take away a MONTH'S worth of food? Really, lets not exaggerate here.
A strike would be a terrible inconvienience. But since most of the riding public couldn't care enough about THEIR OWN SAFETY to demand the TA end OPTO or stop forcing train crews to work on their day off or for 14 hour stretches, then how can we be reasonably expected to care about them?
Yeah, I feel bad, but unless something is done to stop the real arrogant asses, the men who run the Authority then eventully, not just us, but the riding public will suffer as well.
If you don't believe that, then look at the TA's recent history.
Then go find a real job, you union maggot. Its because of idiots like you and your management that costs are so high for the transit-riding public. Anyone who strikes is endangering the health,safety and welfare of the city and should therefore be fired and jailed.
Don't worry, my friend, you'll get yours, because you're as stupid as your management team
The way to keep the discussion civil and open minded is to ignore posts like these, not respond to them. I suggest that regular participants IGNORE any post with any personal insult made by anyone. Do that, and the insults don't matter.
Well the loss of several days pay will really make the poor hurt. I'm worried about a strike that may last several or more days. If it only lasts one day then the damage will be minimal, especially since big weather events such as snowfall usually strike once each winter, causing a day of poor mobility.
I'm behind the workers causes 100%, I just hope a prolonged strike isn't a result. TA management is very screwed up. I'd like to see Mr.Virgil Conway try to run a train, or a bus for just one week.
He'd probably crack up!
These MTA heads have know idea what workers and passengers go through, they really dont! For one person, 45,000 dollars a year may seem comfortable, but if you've got a family, you need a lot more just to survive.
Gee, John.
That was brilliant. How about factoring in overtime (generous) and benefits and pension? Oh, poor you! In total, that's what only 60-65,000? Try to make it in the real world.
Featherbedders like you don't stand a chance in the real world, and not only that, you can't even spell. This is what I get for $1.50?
Go to hell and take your union with you.
A strike during the peak of the Christmas shopping season could be detrimental to the economy, even if it only last a couple of days. Many businesses make the vast majority of their annual profits at this time, and for some small businesses on the brink, a lack of transportation for shoppers around the city could mean the end of their business.
[A strike during the peak of the Christmas shopping season could be detrimental to the economy, even if it only last a couple of days. Many businesses make the vast majority of their annual profits at this time, and for some small businesses on the brink, a lack of transportation for shoppers around the city could mean the end of their business.]
That's true, although it's a bit of a stretch to say that many businesses make the "vast majority" of their profits during the holiday season. But also consider that a strike will be a major hardship on the TWU members this time of year, what with Christmas bills and everything. That's part of the reason why I believe any strike will be no more than a one-day We Mean Business affair.
True. But a strike is a voluntary act, entered into with full knowledge of the consequences. Any businesses that suffer because of a strike are merely innocent victims.
How Goebels of you. Really? A police man to make sure I come to work? This is America man.
And I seriously doubt people will starve for lack of a subway. But since all your compassion is reserved for workers other than subway workers, tell me; how do we resolve our grievances?
Getting the passengers attention, by advertising to them in papers, on TV, and radio. Highlighting the correlation, between the poor treatment of MTA workers, and the still poor service.
People like E.Virgil Conway know absolutely nothing about operating a train or driving a bus, or riding it for that matter. That is the whole problem, the people that run MTA.
MTA should be run by experienced train operators, bus drivers, and passengers, not some politician who only cares about making himself rich. This is what must change, in order for both MTA workers and riders to be happy.
Public agencies like the MTA should be run by their workers, and workers should have a say in whole runs the whole thing. Right now MTA answers to no one, except the State cronies at Gov. Pataki's office.
The MTA can afford to pay it's workers more, and improve it's system, with keeping fares low. Problem is pork barrels like E.Virgil Conway, people who hog all the dough for themselves.
I never said I disagreed with the subway workers greivences, I just don't think a strike is a solution. Also if there is a strike, the MTA
board, people like E.Virgil Conway should be placed under "hotel arrest" and forced to negotiate. After all, he shouldn't go on with
his life if the people of NYC can't, until he settles the strike!
I also dislike the way Pataki has appointed MTA leaders. He has put business-oriented people in charge, who tend to forget that the first priority of the MTA is to provide mass transit, not make a profit.
Also, if workers get arrested for walking out, so should MTA management! Also if there's a strike, since the MTA is equally
responsible, it's only fair that E.Virgil Conway and his buddies
get fined two days pay for each day of the strike also!
Perhaps if the Taylor Law applied to TA management failing to stop
a strike, then the MTA would work a bit harder on getting a better
deal on the table.
If the innocent people get stranded, it is both the fault of TWU, and the MTA, and both should be punsihed!
If there's a cop making sure you run that train, there should also be one watching E.Virgil.Conway, making sure he does his best to put a real deal on the table!
The Taylor law does cut both ways in some respects. If management deals in bad faith with the union, then injunctive relief can be sought. Unfourtunately, the things you suggest do not exist, as much as you and I wish they did.
It was suggested earlier that the union strictly adhere to the "letter of the rule book". This type of job action would cause some slowdowns, but at least you'd get your point across and the system would function. Another idea is to maintain a strike-like pickett line around both City Hall and MTA headquarters. This is not illegal, it would get your point across, and most of all, it would attract the media attention you'd need to convince the masses that your cause is just.
And to be quite honest, using words like "Gestapo" in your rhetoric is irresponsible. Make your case without resorting to inflammatory language.
"And to be quite honest, using words like "Gestapo" in your rhetoric is irresponsible. Make your case without resorting to inflammatory language."
Perhaps it's wrong when he calls the TA Satan, but if someone calls the strike terrorism, an equally inflammatory word can be fair.
Which was precisely why I used it.
I had advocated the actions Chris suggested. I had also suggested picketing certain low life scum management types at their homes. But I don't run the union, and if I did a strike would have not been neccesary.
But se la vie.
Picketting management at their homes? That's disgusting. You've gone overboard here. Stop acting like someone in the MTA has a gun to your head.
That's a good one. HA HA By the way did you know that the NYPD's contract is up after ours and that they are supporting the transit workers since our contract will be the basis for most city agencies.
That's a good one. HA HA By the way did you know that the NYPD's contract is up after ours and that they are supporting the transit workers since our contract will be the basis for most city agencies.
It sounds like 1980 all over again! We had the transit strike. The police strike was averted at the last minute, however.
There will be no police strike. As much as they dislike Guiliani, the police union is a bit more responsible.
You are holding people hostage, keeping them from surviving, by stopping the trains. You can singlehandedly, make people starve, jam city streets, and shut the city down, all for your own benefit. That is why I think police and military should make the trains and buses run by arresting anyone who walks off the job. Hopefully that court injunction will do exactly that.
This is the United States, not Communist China. We are still free over here. The TA has every right to fire anyone who strikes, but the police and the courts have absoultely no right to arrest anybody for striking. There is no slave labor in this country, where someone is arrested for not working. They may do that in Communist China, North Korea and Cuba. I believe that the Soviets did it also. So did the Nazis. They can't do it here.
Not totally true. While TWU members cannot be jailed for not showing up for work (if there is no contract on 12/15), the TWU leadership can be jailed for inciting an illegal act, which a strike by the TWU is, according to law. But that's highly unlikely.
>>> the City of New York should be
able to keep it's public workforce from walking away from the people, even if it means police
(even military) in every subway train, bus, and station to make sure they run. A stable state must
be ensured, if we cannot give the people that, we are living in an anarchy. <<<
No, I don't want a strike either but I'll put up with a strike before I see the USA turned into Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, I don't want a strike either but I'll put up with a strike before I see the USA turned into Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR.
You're mentioning governments that are long gone. What about today's repressive and oppressive iron-ruled dictatorships, like Mainland China, North Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, ..., the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that we're still a free country. Lets keep it that way. We don't need dictatorial barbarism here in the USA.
Freedom is an abstract idea.
Freedom to one man is a prison to another.
True Freedom in this country is a six-figure salary. For the rest of us -- living paycheck to paycheck -- freedom is a fleeting thing.
Sorry to have gone Confusious on you, but I'm in that kind of mood today.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Freedom is an abstract idea.
Freedom to one man is a prison to another. <<<
The plain fact is, the majority of countries in the world not only do not know freedom, they despise it, and they despise us for having it. Look at the tortures visited on John McCain and other POWs in Vietnam; look at what happened to the 53 prisoners in Iran in 1979-81; look at what happened to US servicemen held in Serbia in the recent conflict.
The USA is not angelic in the way we detain other countries' POWs. But it remains that 'human rights' is simply not a concept that is accepted in the majority of the world.
The USA is not angelic in the way we detain other countries' POWs. But it remains that 'human rights' is simply not a concept that is accepted in the majority of the world.
That is an understatement. Isn't it something? China is always committing atrocities against her people, yet we do a lot of trade with China. Fact is, most everything you could buy in a store was made there. I'm not just talking about toys and umbrellas. My Pentax 35 mm SLR camera was made there. The computer case that I bought to house the computer that I built and I'm using was made there, along with my speakers and monitor. I never bothered to check where my Canon BJC6000 printer was made, or my HP scanner. It wouldn't surprise me to find out they were made in China also. Just about everything is made there. Our beloved President continues to give them Most Favored Nation Status (I forgot the new name for that). Look at what Russia is doing in Chechnya. Our government refuses to cut ecomomic aid to Russia, even though the EU is considering it. At least we did the right thing in Kosovo. Bottom line is, for the almighty dollar, the USA looks the other way while human rights are violated abroad. We don't have to trade with China. We don't have to give financial aid to Russia. Hey, we even give financial aid to Indonesia. Look what they did in East Timor.
Hey, the USA doesn't care how other countries treat their people, so long as the US can rely on slave-labor work conditions in those countries to make the consumer goods cheap enough for the US markets. It's the $ that's the bottom line.
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunatly, that's the dark side of capitalism. Until someone invents a better viable economic system, we'll have to live with it.
Slave labor is alive and well right here in NYC. Why not hang around Elmhurst, and check out all the garment factories there (I saw those lights burning with workers at machines from a late Saturday night PW
LIRR train). There are sweatshops in Chinatown, and many more in Brooklyn.
Young women right here in NYC are victims of slave labor.
That's bad enough for them, now they might be stranded if the TA workers walk out!
Operating the subways requires workers who are dedicated to the task. You cannot obtain the necessary degree of dedication and focus at the point of a gun! This is America, thank God, and not Singapore.
Not even Giuliani would be foolish enough to try your approach. Everyone would walk, and there would be no one to operate the trains. Putting the people who know how to run them in jail will surely not get them running. Cooperation works better than coercion at running just about anything.
P.S. Are the drivers of the "private" bus companies in Queens allowed to strike?
Also - does SIRT still have employees who were first hired by its private predecessor (the B&O)? Might there even be a few employees at MaBSTOA from the days of private ownership? If so, then these people did not originally take their jobs with knowledge of the "no strike" policy.
Private bus companies who already have contracts with the city have been warned that if their drivers walk off the job with the rest of the city transit workers, it would nullify their already existing contracts.
Good points. What really irks me is that they are threatening to strike for no good reason. If they had a legitimate cause (like the MTA demanding paycuts, or other things of that sort), then the city might actually support them.
HEY! HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS!? Those aren't reasons to be upset?
If I wasn't convinced before, I am now. You are DENSE!
Actually, despite the nasty nature of your posts, I have read them. Nothing you said justifies the radical action of a strike that could paralyze this city. Don't blame me if you've failed to make your case.
Well then, blame it on management, the city. I personally respect the transit unions for their stance. As a cop I know the PBA doesn't have the b##ls to break the Taylor Law now matter how much the city steps on us.
Well then, blame it on management, the city. I personally respect the transit unions for their stance. As a cop I know the PBA doesn't have the b##ls to break the Taylor Law now matter how much the city steps on us.
Right after the transit strike in 1980, the City almost had a police strike. It was averted at the last minute.
A police strike sounds scary, which cities have had them and how did they deal with it?
Not to worry. There will be no police strike. The PBA is more responsible with it's negotiations. Expect the usual last minute deal in which everyone saves face.
I agree. "Extortion" would be a much more fitting word.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Take it easy John, I think your life is getting a little too much preoccupied by this strike talk. And Willie James is doing very little strike talk. Long before your pal Rudy's threats of breaking the union financially surfaced, Willie knows that Local 100 is part of The Transport Workers Union of America, where it ain't just trains! The 1980 strike put serious financial strain on the local union and the international union which is why I have felt all along: THERE WILL BE AN ELEVENTH HOUR SETTLEMENT, WITHOUT A STRIKE. Mark my words! I think it is already a done deal between Virgil & Willie, but everybody has to go thru the motions. TWU will get the same wage package as which MetroNorth & LIRR received. Rudy is a union buster and has admitted it the past couple of days. The same Rudy who recently got a raise which TWU can only dream for! You suggest that we would get public support if we convince them how we are treated and that the MTA salaries at the top should be trimmed. Thanks, but no thanks. That kind of struggle does not make the evening news at all, let alone the top story. Nor does it make pages 1,2 or 3 of the News or Post. But the Transit Workers contract expiration always does. It is an attention grabber! Not this other stuff! The public doesn't care how we are treated. They feel, as most non TA workers on SubTalk feel, that we should quit if we don't like it. After all, "as long as I get to work, what do I care?" The public feels it is the easiest, most stress free job in the world. Sure it's fun operating your own electric train set for a couple of years (all you guys who are train operator wanna-bees will eventually find this out!!), but TA rules, regulations & procedeures turn the employee into a pre-programmed robot; when you have to walk around your train due to a BIE with third rails, garbage bags, trains passing you on adjacent tracks, tight clearances, Control Center constantly calling you on the radio to rush you, and finally people verbally abusing you when you get back on the train for the delay.....well, it ain't fun anymore, if the guy has been doing it for 3 years or 20 years!
Well said Bill!
Not to mention those damn GT's, which seem to be everywhere.
If I were a subway T/O, GT's and WD's would annoy me the most about my job, constantly having to go 5mph below the speed limit because of some super-sensitive WD. And I've heard stories about WD's that trip trains even though the trains are within the speed limit, and the T/O gets blamed, even though it's the MTA's fault. The subways have slowed down considerably since the beginning of this year. I remember Manhattan bound 7 trains going into the tunnel and feeling that rush of air going into the Steinway tubes while standing at the front window. Now the trains go so slow it's not even noticed! I wouldn't want a subway T/O's job because there are too many restrictions, it looks like they (the TA) try to make every stretch of track so all motorman drive the same, forget about trying to get a late train ahead a few minutes!
Railfanning (and thus operating the train) doesn't look like much fun anymore, because of all the MTA's "safety" concerns. Perhaps if they just got the damn track in good shape the trains would go faster.
I'm sure the LIRR engineers (LIRR T/O's) get to have alot more fun though, it's a lot looser over there I'm sure.
I just hope and pray there isn't a strike.
The track is in great shape because the trains don't pound them because they go slow! The worst line for GT's and the line I dislike working the most is the L (apologies Wayne) because of all those timers. When I worked the D as a rookie, if I had a good R32, it was really fun since I could barrel hard into those Bronx stations and make a perfect smooth stop. I can't operate like that anywhere anymore, otherwise I'm going out of the station!
LIRR, loose? Nope, the opposite. Training and qualification there is the toughest in America. The rules and regulations are followed proudly, as the crews take tremendous satisfaction from being the top in the industry. Trains move fast there because LIRR management has looked foward and seen that high speed and consistent avarage speeds make for efficient service.
The TA uses it's systemic shortcomings as a tool to wheddle more and more out of the federal government for capitol improvements. That's part of the reason why things are slower today.
(It ain't fun anymore)
Sounds like yet another argument for ATO.
As for title merging, look what I've heard here. Conductors aren't trained (or permitted) to fix the trains? Better to have computers do the boring work, and have one better paid employee on board who is capable of handling a variety of situations.
The following item is up for auction on eBay (www.ebay.com)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=215592957
It is an advertisment entitled: 1940s Subway Train, City Hall, Goodrich Ad
Can anyone identify the location ?
Not specifically. But from looking at the picture it would appear to be on an elevated structure, possible multi-level station in background, train is on lower level of said station. Also, it would appear that the tracks are dividing and the Bluebird is curving to its left (our right as we face it) and rising in elevation. There are two additional tracks to our right, the closer of which appears to be rising from a lower level (possibly the farther one too, I can't tell for sure).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can't indentify positively, but judging that this is an elevated structure, and that the train is leaving from what appears to be a lower level of a large structure, I'll guess its coming from the demolished side of the lower level of Queensborough Plaza.
We can take the "City Hall" destination with a grain of salt, since this is likely a posed shot.
I'd say that Paul Matus is right about identifying the location as Queensborough Plaza. While there are or were other complicated structures (such as East New York), QP seems to be the only one that would have so much steel to the right of the picture and above the train.
The photo does look posed, even if a run to City Hall from QP was always possible if never used, as we know. The car number doesn't seem to be visible. But I'm curious--did the width of the Blue Birds (as least at floor level) allow operation on the Astoria and Flushing lines, and if so, did they ever operate there as demonstrators?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
But I'm curious--did the width of the Blue Birds (as least at floor level) allow operation on the Astoria and Flushing lines, and if so, did they ever operate there as demonstrators?
The Bluebirds, like all other BMT steel cars were 10' wide.
I'm guessing QP the existing lower level B division. The train is heading toward the 60th St tunnel. A visit to Queens Plaza today would reveal that the demolished portion is to the north (to the left of the picture if facing east).
A few months ago someone asked if there were still sirens perched above el station roofs. Nobody answered that question but it started a long thread on air raid sirens and fire horns. Well today I was driving N/B on Flushing Av just S/O the Broadway El (next to Woodkill Woodhull Hospital and I happened to spot a siren atop the Flushing Av Station on Bway. Although I'm sure its not in use right now it was there so we do have an answer!!!!!
A few Astoria line stations still have them.
Actually I did answer at the time and will again w/shorter post.
Manhattan bound N in Astoria Either Grand or Broadway on the roof an old C.D. siren. Only visable from Astoria side.
Are those the air raid seriens put up during the cold war to warn of Soviet nuke strikes?
Yes indeed. The network of sirens is long defunct, and I doubt many of them work at all.
-Hank
Yeah?? Don't stand next to a Long Island firehouse at 1200hrs!!!!
What I mean is, they've not been used for their original purpose, which is CD.
-Hank
Most likely it is,It`s indetical to those that sounded each weekday around noon.In my area the upper east side they ceased functioning sometime in late `72 and were removed altogether when the lamposts that held them were replaced in spring `73. I don`t know why,but,it`s still nice to see a few survivors in the outlying boroughs.
I beleive that the siren system started during WWII because of the possibility of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) conducting air strikes up and down the Eastern Seaboard (incl. NY City). Hence the regular air-raid drills, blackouts and so forth. By the time the Cold War was in full swing, the siren system was probabaly upgraded and tested regularly.
By the time the late 1970s rolled about the whole system was in disrepair(surprise!). During that time, (late 70s/early 80s) the NY City Dept of Transportation (DOT) began removing the sirens and their support platforms from lampposts around town. In the Bay Ridge area (where I lived as a kid) there were two lamppost mounted units: one at 78th St & Ridge and the other at 69th & Shore Rd, that were taken down somtime in the early 80s.
The sirens that were atop the el stations stayed of course since it was under the TA's jurisdiction, property-wise and since there was no $$$ to fix the stations anyway. Only since the mid-90s has the TA been getting around to removing them when an el station has been nominated for extensive renovations.
I hope the Transit Museum does an exhibit someday about how the subway system worked during WWII and during the Civil Defense crazes of the 1950s and 60s. I'm sure someone will flag an old siren that's been taken down for display in such an exhibit.
I don't think there was any chance of German bombers in the US. Germany didn't have any real carriers which definitely would have been needed. There was a real threat however of Japan bombing the US mainland.
Jeff, Luftwaffe plans were to occupy Greenland. From there, four-emgine bombers could have reached the Eastern seaboard.
Let's not forget that the Germans would air-launch fighters from Zeppoles :)
-Hank
I thought those were Led Zeppelins!!! :o>
Wayne
How about the opening vocals to "Immigrant Song"? Robert Plant could definitely match a siren pitch-for-pitch on that tune. Good Lord :)
I was thinking more along the lines of "Since I've Been Loving You", or perhaps right before the coda of "How Many More Times" (where he goes "I've Got You In The Sights of my.....")
Robert Plant - the Human Sireen.
Wayne
It would be interesting to see what any Board of Transportation measures (such as signage, blackouts or dimmed lighting on elevated portions) might have been during the war. Perhaps the Transit Museum could include the other systems during wartime as well: London, of course, Paris - how was the Metro affected by the occupation? Madrid's subway during the shelling/bombing of the Spanish Civil War (one platform photo in Groff Conklin's 1940(?) book "All About Subways"); if Berlin could be included it would be an unusual look into it's subway during a "weird and dangerous" era: 1. a '44 or '45 London Times article stated that teenage boys were being trained as motormen due to shortage of men, (photos etc. maybe?) 2. the unfortunate, brutal and usual disregard for human life by the SS when they flooded several subway stations to deter the final Russian advance; in several instances, this drowned many Berliners (women and children) seeking shelter on the platforms (postwar restoration photos maybe?) 3. Postwar/Coldwar: anything on the closing of the U-Bahn stations in East Berlin 4. photos of S-Bahn bomb damage, reconstruction, or abandonment.
I beleive that the siren system started during WWII because of the possibility of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) conducting air strikes up and down the Eastern Seaboard (incl. NY City). Hence the regular air-raid drills, blackouts and so forth. By the time the Cold War was in full swing, the siren system was probabaly upgraded and tested regularly.
By the time the late 1970s rolled about the whole system was in disrepair(surprise!). During that time, (late 70s/early 80s) the NY City Dept of Transportation (DOT) began removing the sirens and their support platforms from lampposts around town. In the Bay Ridge area (where I lived as a kid) there were two lamppost mounted units: one at 78th St & Ridge and the other at 69th & Shore Rd, that were taken down somtime in the early 80s.
The sirens that were atop the el stations stayed of course since it was under the TA's jurisdiction, property-wise and since there was no $$$ to fix the stations anyway. Only since the mid-90s has the TA been getting around to removing them when an el station has been nominated for extensive renovations.
I hope the Transit Museum does an exhibit someday about how the subway system worked during WWII and during the Civil Defense crazes of the 1950s and 60s. I'm sure someone will flag an old siren that's been taken down for display in such an exhibit.
I don't think there was any chance of German bombers in the US. Germany didn't have any real carriers which definitely would have been needed. There was a real threat however of Japan bombing the US mainland.
Jeff, Luftwaffe plans were to occupy Greenland. From there, four-emgine bombers could have reached the Eastern seaboard.
Let's not forget that the Germans would air-launch fighters from Zeppoles :)
-Hank
I thought those were Led Zeppelins!!! :o>
Wayne
How about the opening vocals to "Immigrant Song"? Robert Plant could definitely match a siren pitch-for-pitch on that tune. Good Lord :)
I was thinking more along the lines of "Since I've Been Loving You", or perhaps right before the coda of "How Many More Times" (where he goes "I've Got You In The Sights of my.....")
Robert Plant - the Human Sireen.
Wayne
It would be interesting to see what any Board of Transportation measures (such as signage, blackouts or dimmed lighting on elevated portions) might have been during the war. Perhaps the Transit Museum could include the other systems during wartime as well: London, of course, Paris - how was the Metro affected by the occupation? Madrid's subway during the shelling/bombing of the Spanish Civil War (one platform photo in Groff Conklin's 1940(?) book "All About Subways"); if Berlin could be included it would be an unusual look into it's subway during a "weird and dangerous" era: 1. a '44 or '45 London Times article stated that teenage boys were being trained as motormen due to shortage of men, (photos etc. maybe?) 2. the unfortunate, brutal and usual disregard for human life by the SS when they flooded several subway stations to deter the final Russian advance; in several instances, this drowned many Berliners (women and children) seeking shelter on the platforms (postwar restoration photos maybe?) 3. Postwar/Coldwar: anything on the closing of the U-Bahn stations in East Berlin 4. photos of S-Bahn bomb damage, reconstruction, or abandonment.
Sorry about that, but the memory is the 1rst to go!!!
I know what you mean,the worst is looking for your glasses only to discover...you`re wearing them!
Yes, and it is painted Bile Green to match the station decor.
There is another Siren - this one on the south end of the N/B "L" station at Sutter Avenue. It is two-vaned with a narrow base. The one at Flushing Avenue is two-vaned with a fat base, and when operational, could pump out 107db of ear-splitting noise.
Wayne
You're operating an R-46 on the R in the Montague Street Tunnel, heading north from Court Street to Whitehall Street. A little background information is necessary. You and your regular conductor do not get along. It all began when you started providing English translations over the public address system after everyone of his station announcements. He countered by bringing surveying equipment with him to be sure that you had stopped the train within the range of his conductor sign board markings.
Anyway, as you proceed toward Whitehall, you hear a loud noise. You then notice that up ahead, the tunnel ceiling has breached, and a torrent of water has entered the tunnel. You notify your conductor, and he starts screaming in his native tongue. You should
a) stop and notify Command Center of the wall of water about to flood your train.
b) notify the customers to put rags and newspapers around the door sills so as to make the train interior airtight.
c) relieve your conductor of command citing Article 184 of Naval Regulations, and proceed to OPTO
d) put your train into reverse and move back to Court Street ignore rule 37N.
e) stop engaging in silly fantasies, and proceed on signals to Whitehall Street.
The Answer would be D. I would get the hell out of the there after notifying the command center to hold all trains before Court Street
Likely the correct answer would be none of the above. Depending on the volume of water, the time it would take to stop and reverse direction would be longer than the time it would take to notch up to multiple and move AFAP past the breech. In any event, if the tunnel flooded, I'd want the water behind me rather than in front of me for two reasons.
1) The volume of water, in the tight confines of the tunnel would likely push the train foward.
2) If I had to swim for it, I'd want the train behind me. If I cacked up, I'd eventually have to swim past the entire length of the tran.
At first I thought the contract expired on the 16th (Wed) so the strike was on the 17th (Thurs), now I hear the strike is on Wednesday and I'm confused. When is it?
The contract expires Wednesday, the 15th, at 12:01 AM.
Any chance you guys could push this off until Friday? I'd like a three day weekend. And besides, the DC 37 Union Christmas Party at City Planning is Thursday. I have to eat $600 worth since thats the only benefit I get out of my dues.
12/11/99
I've just received in my ERA newsletter an appeal by the Friends of Locomotive #35 Inc. an annnoucement about LIRR caboose #12. This caboose which has been residing at Shore Line Museum (Branford) for some years has been acquired and will return home to Long Island to be incorporated into the museums new location at Oyster Bay. This organization is not to be confused with the Railroad Museum of Long Island which is based in Riverhead.
This caboose, class N52A was built for the LIRR in 1922 and I believe is of wooden construction. #12 and her sisters last saw freight service on the LIRR in the late 50's. #12 was saved from the scrapper and was preserved at Shore Line for years and served as a "bunkhouse" for volunteers who stayed overnight. With new area motels in the area, #12 was no longer needed and offered to the Friends Of Locomotive #35. This organization is establishing Oyster Bay as their new "home" since Nassau County needs the land where #35 (G-5s) now sits. Even the old Oyster Bay station building will figure into the groups new home.
To date, over $6.000 of the estimated $10,000 needed to acquire and transport #12 home to Long Island. This acquizition will have two benefits, return #12 to Long Island and will further support Shore Line's operations. If you wish to contribute, here is the following info:
Make checks payable to: Friends of Locomotive #35 Inc.
Please fill in memo line: Caboose #12
Mail to: Caboose #12 328 Fern St. South Hempstead,NY 11550
If you wish to visit their website:
http://members.aol.com/belpaire/loco.htm
Thank you,
Bill Newkirk
Did anyone see the article on the 12/10 NY Daily News op ed page by Diana Fortuna and Charles Brecher of the Citizens Budget Commission on the possible strike?
Among the points made were:
--Transit workers' wages have increased on an annual average of 2.6%, while the inflation rate has been 2.1%. Therefore, transit workers' wages have beaten inflation. In fact transit workers have done better against inflation than many other city workers
--The MTA is not running at a tremendous surplus, as opposed to popular thought. The MTA has done better in recent years not from increased ridership (Metrocard transfers have cut down on revenues) but from high yields from sales taxes and other "earmarked taxes available to the MTA".
--In fact the MTA will have to borrow to finance capital needs such as the 2nd Avenue s(t)ubway, and just doing necessary repairs will cost millions.
--Riders will have to pay for any wage gains with fare hikes.
The solution proposed by Fortuna and Brecher is to link any pay increase to greater productivity, and make the system more efficient. (I am simplifying it for brevity).
Did anyone read the article, and have a reaction?
www.forgotten-ny.com
WRONG:
TA workers do better than most city workers, but so does everyone else. The local inflation rate is misleading. If you own your house or have a rent stabilized apartment its one thing, otherwise your housing prices have soared. Yes the TA has an opeating deficit, but it also has a dedicated tax and toll revenue stream that is being increasingly diverted to the commuter railroads. Where was Breecher when the LIRR contract was signed? If productivity and wage increases were correlated, then TA workers deserve higher wage increases than others. The MTA is having to borrow to fund its capital plan because city, state, and federal aid has been cut. Where was Breecher when Pataki and Giuliani ran up this huge debt.
RIGHT
Wage increase will be paid for by fare increases. But what's wrong with that? Other employees in the city are getting wage increases, and those are being passed on to higher prices for TWU members. The question is what's fair.
There should be additional productivity gains, with a no layoff pledge, to allow resources to be diverted to captial spending.
FUTHERMORE
Breecher's solution to the 2nd Avenue subway -- raise the fare so high that fewer people use mass transit.
GODDAMNIT!!!! This is NOT about money! Most of us cite wages in our arguemnts to show the level of disrespect our employer maintains against us. Not because we want more. This is about ISSUES! Respect! A day off! SAFETY!
Money? I and several other SubTalkers have stated we would be happy with a ZERO increase if we could just get our issues addressed!
(Not about money)
The NY Times today said the issues were work rules (TA) and discipline (TWU), so at least that paper agrees with you on what the issues are.
We all know that the respected NY Times is one of the few papers that actually gets it right. That's why people of influence read it, and NOT the Daily News. Check out the riders on Metro North, or the LIRR, and NJT. Affluent and well educated business people. And very few copies of the News. Says a lot doesn't it?
(Times gets it right)
Actually, whenever there is something I KNOW about -- ie. zoning, the city's economy -- I find that the Times gets it WRONG. But, like everyone else, I read it and assume that when there is something I don't know about the Times is right.
[We all know that the respected NY Times is one of the few papers that actually gets it right. That's why people of influence read it, and NOT the Daily News. Check out the riders on Metro North, or the LIRR, and NJT. Affluent and well educated business people. And very few copies of the News. Says a lot doesn't it?]
I got a laugh out of that. The _Times_ gets plenty wrong, thanks no doubt to its relentless p.c. viewpoint under which much is ignored.
Remember one thing, ladies and gents- the Daily News and the New York Post have alot of problems with their Union Workers, especially the drivers and deliverymen. The Daily News just lost a case with the deliverymens union in the courts where the judge awarded the union's workers millions in back pay. Do you think anyone in Daily News management would print anything favorable about ANY union? The New York Post was always antiunion and tried many times to break the Union. It is also anti-labor and controled by Republicans who have a history against Unions and Unionized work forces. The citizens budget commission also has a history of being against Unionized City Civil Service Workers. It should take a big stance against Politicians voting themselves huge pay increases- something that is now being kept quiet. This issue the TWU should publicise , but it has failed to make noise about. Neither has the newspapers, just a few small articles. If I were the Union President- All TWU members would be fighting mad and demanding a pay rollback for all City and State Politicians- this would also get the riding public on our side. This should have been done months ago. It's too late now- they are all against us if we strike.
I have seen numerous posts on SubTalk about the upcoming strike. What is the dispute? When will the workers start striking? What part(s) of the system will shut down (i.e. buses, subways)?
I will be in New York from December 19th until the 23rd. How will I be affected?
Thanks.
Basically money. The TWU wants more than the MTA is willing to give.
If a strike happens, most city bus and all subway service will come to a halt. Private bus companies will continue to operate, because the city said any bus company that has workers honoring any pickett line will have their contracts with the city nullified.
As for those dates here in the city, the system should be back by then. The TWU can only hold out for a limited period of time before Taylor Law fines force them to re-think the fairness of what's been offered.
Chris please stop talking about things you really don't know about.
A wage increase is one of the points of the demands as well as health benefits (which is a major one), disciniplairy procedures (guilty until proven innocent), working out of title eg. T/O who was a C/R 10 years ago is needed to go down the road as a C/R and paid as a C/R (safety issues)
Realize what is offered "fair" HA. I hope you come down here soon so you can see first hand TA's version of "fair" and I'm sure you will be singing a different tune.
Im well versed in this debate. You may have some legitimate gripes about how the MTA disciplines it workers. But as for your ridiculous wage and benefit demands go, no dice. They are what they are, unacceptable and outragous.
Go ahead and strike. Watch the State government bankrupt your union for this illegal work stoppage.
Chris;
Why do you continue to spout made up facts and purport to know the "truth"? Do you work in any capacity for the Authority? Are you a labor relaions expert?
I've come to the conclusion that you refuse to understand
any other side of an issue except that which you percieve
to be your own.
How childish.
I have posted MANY examples of the Authority's abuses of
it's employee's. And I have also stated many times that no
matter what the media chooses to make as IT'S issues,
wages are NOT the most important issue to US the workers. I am qualified to comment because not only am I an employee but a union steward as well.
Now either you aren't reading these posts I and others have put up, or you choose to ignore them in promoting your apologistic crusade for the management of the Authority.
Which is it?
I think as a Transportation Professional, you are being a little unprofessional in your remarks to Chris. I have the sense that Chris is relatively young, and looks upon things from a young person's perspective. An offer was made by the city, you guys should be reasonable and take it and not inconvenience millions of New Yorkers. He feels that way.
That doesn't trouble me as much as your expecting everyone here to take every word of yours as The Gospel Truth. You have recounted many problems that the workers have with the MTA. You present an extremely negative perspective about the conditions that the workers endure. Yet the trains run, workers get paid, lives get lived, a contract will be signed eventually, and lives will go on. At times you have spoken of your love of the job despite all of what you complain about. Maybe people regard conductors, or train operators, or token agents, or bus drivers with little regard. But you keep this city moving and alive. It may be taken for granted, and maybe a strike is necessary to remind us what the transit system really means in this city.
If there is exploitation of TWU workers by the MTA, take a look on BusTalk and read a post by John this evening at 22:43:30 . We all should be shamed that many of our comforts come at the expense of the lives of people who toil for 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. And these aren't people in Malaysia, or China, or Mexico. They are right here. They are paying with their lives for this booming economy. Clinton should be shamed for his deeds, George W may have done things that he should be shamed by, but we all should be shamed by what John describes.
I think as a Transportation Professional, you are being a little unprofessional in your remarks to Chris. I have the sense that Chris is relatively young, and looks upon things from a young person's perspective. An offer was made by the city, you guys should be reasonable and take it and not inconvenience millions of New Yorkers. He feels that way.
Listen, Chris was out of line. He took a hostile posture and youth is no wxcuse for poor manners. Now I will tell you, as an older, more mature person, what i tried to tell Chris. The cact that an offer was made does not mean that it was a fair or equitable offer. it is mearly a negotiating point to be countered by the union. You are, as is Chris, not qualified to judge what someone else should accept as a fair wage. Do the job and then you may be qualified to give an opinion.
Why is my age a factor in the validity of my arguments? I'm a married man with a 2 year old son. I'm an active member of my community politically, and I deserve to have my opinions respected. I have apologized for my tone, but I won't apologize for my beliefs.
I agree, one thing that the internet has allowed is people to be completely anonymous, so they can be respected (or not) for how they think and not what they are. It allows children to be heard and respected for their thoughts as opposed to being subjected to antiquated notions of respect for elders and other silliness.
Hey thanks for that. You must be a really bold and bright computer guy or gal. Please dont waste our time. THANKYOU.
"Hey thanks for that. You must be a really bold and bright computer guy or gal. Please dont waste our time. THANKYOU."
Is this supposed to be a positive or negative statement? Am I looking stupid by even asking?
No, you're not the one who looks stupid here.
Chuck
Respect is earned, not given by title or social status. Just because your older doesn't make what you think more valid. IIRC, it was our "elders" who got this country involved in an unwinnable war in Vietnam. It was the younger people of this country who said "no". And as a nation, we are greater because of that.
Respect is earned. Right. When you have worked in this industry for some time, then feel free to comment on our opinons as transit workers.
Why? You've held the city hostage, and illegally too.
The rules are as follows with your job: YOU CANNOT STRIKE. Got that? or are you just plain so stupid as to not understand the english language? Of course not. You're a transit worker - a leach.
I think as a Transportation Professional, you are being a little unprofessional in your remarks to Chris. I have the sense that Chris is relatively young, and looks upon things from a young person's perspective. An offer was made by the city, you guys should be reasonable and take it and not inconvenience millions of New Yorkers. He feels that way.
Listen, Chris was out of line. He took a hostile posture and youth is no excuse for poor manners. Now I will tell you, as an older, more mature person, what i tried to tell Chris. The cact that an offer was made does not mean that it was a fair or equitable offer. it is mearly a negotiating point to be countered by the union. You are, as is Chris, not qualified to judge what someone else should accept as a fair wage. Do the job and then you may be qualified to give an opinion.
I too sense immaturity from Chris, as he likes to make statements which are either untrue, or asserts opinion as fact, and does it in an offensive way. So I tend to be tough on the guy. Let him do some research on the subject. I don't expect him to take my word for gospel, but at least don't insult other people with an arrogant know it all attitude and then be wrong!
I too sense immaturity from Chris, as he likes to make statements which are either untrue, or asserts opinion as fact, and does it in an offensive way. So I tend to be tough on the guy. Let him do some research on the subject. I don't expect him to take my word for gospel, but at least don't insult other people with an arrogant know it all attitude and then be wrong!
I see that I'm not the only person on Subtalk that senses Chris' hostility. He is a very caustic person. He disputes everything I say and thinks he knows more than anyone. He shoots his mouth off with no regard for other people, whether he's right or wrong. He will always try to make it appear that you're a blooming idiot, that only he knows what he's talking about. He loves to insult a person's intelligence. It's time that angry young man grew up. Its also time for him to chill out. He's so hot-headed, you could fry an egg on that man's head.
To reiterate:
I have opinions
They are valid
I refuse to apologize for their vigorous defense
I have apologized for my tone
My age is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Ok?
Why is my age a factor in the validity of my arguments? I'm a married man with a 2 year old son. I'm an active member of my community politically, and I deserve to have my opinions respected. I have apologized for my tone, but I won't apologize for my beliefs.
To reiterate:
I have opinions
They are valid
I refuse to apologize for their vigorous defense
I have apologized for my tone
My age is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Ok?
First off, to get respect, you have to give respect. As for apologizing for your tone, you haven't apologized to me or to The Transportation Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46, just to Steve.
I gave a general apology. It applies to all who were offended with my tone. However, I am not apologizing for what I said. I believe it as strongly as I did then. Respect is a funny thing. Sometimes people say things that aren't deserving of respect. Given the language in here, with some people using words to describe the mayor as a "dictator" and the MTA as the "gestapo", it's hard to maintain a pleasant demeanor.
And to be quite honest, dismissing my opinions because I'm a bit younger than many in here is also showing me a complete lack of respect.
I'm prepared to continue this debate in a much less confrontational way. If union supporters can actually justify their strike threats and their contractual demands, I might also be willing to admit I was wrong. I'm not a bad guy.
Although I have not been an active participant in the discussions regarding the strike, I'll say this: I too was somewhat offended by your tone, and I accept the apology. As to your views, you're entitled to them, regardless of what the rest of us may think about them. At least you're taking time to think about and discuss an issue rather than simply screaming a line of rhetoric that you don't understand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunaty, I understand this quite well. I understand it more than many others in here. And I'm the only one who seems to look at the big picture, and not some narrow view.
Point taken. Now if you'd only practice what you preach, then this ugly little argument can be put behind us.
Pracitce what I preach?
I have been in this industry for 14 years this coming March. I have worked in union and non union enviorments. My statements are factual and can be verified by anyone with the care to do so.
It's very rare that I'm in error on the items I report. As a union steward I am very close to the issues. As a conductor I live the conflict. I don't insult the people here on the board. Although I use colorful metaphors to describe the Authority and it's leaders, I do so to better demonstrate how poorly these people treat their workers and the level of contempt they hold us in.
Other than being a passenger and railfan, what qualfications do YOU bring to the discussion?
So I'd be alright coming to town the Wednesday after Christmas?
Subway Steve's Homepage
Most likely. Political pressure and Taylor Law fines will all conspire to end any strike after a couple of days, at most
[When will the workers start striking? What part(s) of the system will shut down (i.e. buses, subways)?]
If a strike occurs, it most likely would start on Wednesday, December 15. Subways and TA buses would be affected. Commuter trains, the non-TA bus lines in the outer boroughs, and PATH would not be affected (although the possibility of brief "sympathy stoppages" cannot be discounted).
[I will be in New York from December 19th until the 23rd. How will I be affected?]
I strongly suspect that the strike won't last more than a couple of days. It's hard to say what the effect on your trip will be, not knowing where you'll be staying and planning to see.
"What is the strike about?" is an interesting question. From an outsider's perspective (mine), it appears that the strike threat is less about specific issues and much more about power and respect.
The transit workers are not only at odds with the MTA, they are disappointed in their own union leadership. From what I've read and those that I've spoken to, it seems that many of the workers see a strike as the best means to gain back some power and respect.
MTA management, on the other hand, seems to be daring the workers to strike.
Union leadership seems to be between the proverbial rock and a hard place. If they negotiate a settlement which would be judged "fair" by the unbiased among us, there's a pretty good chance that contract would be voted down by the membership and/or the union leadership voted out at the next opportunity.
I'm basing my opinion on what I've read and conversations with a handful of union members. There's a possibility that I'm giving too much weight to the opinions of a vocal few and that there is a "silent majority" with lower expectations.
Chuck
You're operating a Southbound A which has been
rerouted through the Montague Street Tunnel. ( Hint:
do not concentrate on the improbability of such an
occurrence. ) As you are entering the City Hall
station, you notice that a large number of TWU union
members, returning from a demonstration, are
standing near the conductor's sign boards. You pull
into the station, and the conductor opens up. After
a minute or so, the doors are still open and you ask
the conductor if he is being held by supervision.
He says no, but the union members are staging a wild
cat strike and telling him to join them. You are a
law abiding person who has never even taken the tags
off pillows or chairs. You should:
a) remind the conductor of the Taylor Law and tell
him that you cannot afford the loss of pay as your
final payment to your dentist for your braces is due
next week.
b) make an annoucement on the PA telling customers
that they are being delayed because the conductor is
holding the doors open.
c) call Command Center and ask them for advice
on what is the right thing for you to do.
d) ask the TA police officer who happens to be on
board to go back to the conductor's position, take
away his keys, place him under cab arrest, so that
you can go into OPTO mode and ensure that the MTA
will live up to their promised duty to deliver
customers safely and expeditiously to their
destinations.
e) ask the conductor if he is ordering you to
remain in the station, thus relieving yourself of
any blame. You will then claim that you were only
following orders.
I would probably do
d) ask the TA police officer who happens to be on
board to go back to the conductor's position, take
away his keys, place him under cab arrest, so that
you can go into OPTO mode and ensure that the MTA
will live up to their promised duty to deliver
customers safely and expeditiously to their
destinations.
Tonight is the December meeting of the Urban Transit Club (UTC) Located in the Masonic hall (71 W23rd st Right off 6th ave) Come one, come all to our annual holiday party and slide show. First time admission FREE (Mention seeing this on line) Show starts at 7.
Glenn, You didn't give us (me) much notice of your UTC meeting. Could you tell us a little about the orgn. and when the next meeting is ?
BTW, I went to a ERA meeting for the first time last month & will probally be back.
P.S. Isn't this site a cool place to learn about neet transit stuff !
Mr t__:^)
I happened to be driving (a sin, I know) past the Medical Center MARTA station last night when I noticed that you could jump over a wall and you'd be on the southbound platform.
There is a business park right next to the southbound side of the station. I parked my car inside the park and walked up to the wall. The wall was only about six and a half feet tall. I pulled myself up to see over it, and what do you know! The platform was right there! I could have easily climbed over it to get on a train, but I'm more honest than that (or because I was meeting someone very soon).
I think someone else knows about this, too, because there was a bicycle hidden in the bushes next to the wall.
SEPTA, never being one to pass up an opportunity for self-promotion, is issuing "Millennium Passes" that are good from 5pm 12/31/99 to 5am 1/1/00 on all SEPTA vehicles(including the Regional Rail).
The passes cost $2.00 IIRC.
Are any other transit providers doing the same?
Subway Steve's Homepage
Don't you think SEPTA should shut down the system for Y2K protection like the MTA?
SEPTA will stop all trains from 11:55 pm to 12:05 am.
Oh Oh Oh ... I want a used one and have lots of NY stuff to trade for it ... how about a "Bulls Eye" token.
Seriously, contact me off-line & we'll make a deal !
Mr t__:^)
I just bought a Millennium Pass today at 69th
Street.
The passes are not your typical farecards.
The pass is about 1.5 times the size of a regular
TransPass with neat silver writing etched in.
It doesn't have a magnetic strip on the back. You
just show it to the operator.
You can tell that at the last minute, the decision
was made to put silver writing on it as some present
artwork on the pass was "written over".
It's not bad, overall. Listed are the following
routes that will observe late-night hours as a
result of Y2K:
MFL and BS/BRS(every 15 minutes)
10, 13 and 36 trolleys
Bus routes 13, 17, 23, 33, 42, 47 and 48.
RR lines except Cynwyd R6, possibly the Fox Chase R8
and the Airport R1.
Here in Chicago, CTA is using the same "pass" for this New Year's Eve that they do every year, and it's something that's in most people's pockets already: a penny. CTA bus and L fare (and Pace suburban bus fare) is one cent from 8pm on Friday the 31st to 6am on Saturday the 1st. Alas, no fare break on Metra.
If we can agree that there is more capacity that needed west of 5th, and less east of 5th, here is a cheaper alternative.
The B division provides 22 percent more capacity per train than the A division. Above Grand Central, the Lex has B division specs, and I believe this is true of the Jerome Avenue and Pelham Lines as well. So extend it down Lexington Avenue as a B division line, hook it over, and have it intesect the BMT Broadway Line. Shave down the platforms, and capacity goes up by 20 percent on the Upper East Side.
Then reconnect the original subway route, with the shuttle turning down Park Avenue. Lots of capacity for suburban commuters at GCT.
The only problem is the Astoria Line, and perhaps the LaGuardia Line, would have to terminate at, say, 34th Street since the link further down would be broken. Maybe it could be hooked into the path.
BTW -- as per the East Side/West Side discussion -- when the subways were built the East Side had more people, and there were rich and poor areas on both sides of the Park, but above 30th Street the East Side had fewer jobs. Before the WWII office boom around Grand Central, most offices were Downtown, and most people worked in factories that were either Downtown or on the West Side. Since the BMT hooks over, south of 23rd Street the city DOES have a second east side subway. The 6th Avenue line serves Rockefeller Center, which was built at the same time, and is only one block from 5th Avenue.
This is a question for rail buffs everywhere.The oringal plan for the east side line was a route along Lexington Avenue and Broadway to lower Manhattan ,Brooklyn via the East River Tunnel.Now,I've heard that constuction did continue past G.C.T. Even though the so called Tri-Boro system's routes were divided between the B.M.T And I.R.T with the two route's split.Does anyone know if this is true and if so why hasn't the T.A. found a use for the unused trackways.
This was part of Construction Rt 5,section 6 which was incorporated into the "Triborough" Plan of 1908. Construction began on July 30,1911 on Lexington Av between 26 St and 40 St. The Public Service Commission approved the Dual Contracts on March 4,1913 and this route was no longer needed. Work stopped on April 26,1913 and the trench was filled in.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Though I may have heard this discussed before, I don't recall any of the details.
Where was the northern terminus (or link) of Route 5, Section 6? How would that route have gone to Broadway? Across 23rd Street? Under Gramercy Park to 14th Street into Broadway?
And presumably, the original subway would have been left intact (to run across 42nd Street and up Broadway)?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed: The Public Service Commission proposed this route in 1907 as part of a Broadway-Lexington Av Line. It was to run from the Battery along Greenwich and Vessey Streets to Broadway,then along Broadway to 9 Street cut over to Irving Place to Lexington Av and then run to a destination in The Bronx to be determined. It would have been one block away from the Original Subway at 42 Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Would the new subway line be 6 ave. exp.or local? This route should replace F and Q service on 6 ave. with the Q back on Bway and F local.West End trains should be returned to Bway ,and a new service from the Eastern Divison lines routed up 6 ave,Central Park West and Washington Hts to the Bronx. V trains should go to Brooklyn via Houston/Cluver/Coney Island express[beteen Jay St.and Kings Hwy.]
Would the new subway line be 6 ave. exp.or local? This route should replace F and Q service on 6 ave. with the Q back on Bway and F local.West End trains should be returned to Bway ,and a new service from the Eastern Divison lines routed up 6 ave,Central Park West and Washington Hts to the Bronx. V trains should go to Brooklyn via Houston/Cluver/Coney Island express[beteen Jay St.and Kings Hwy.]
The 6th Ave. connection for the Eastern Division through Chrystie St. has existed since 1968. It was the old KK, then K service on the Jamaica El up 6th Ave. to 57th St. I'd like to see K service restored.
Some F-Trains used to run express down the Culver also. That too was cut out. I'd like to see Culver express service restored as well. I also like the idea of Broadway West End and Brighton service. It brings back good memories of BMT service before the Chrystie St. connection opened.
This has been discussed a lot already, so I'll try to summarize. The first question is whether MTA will have enough cars for the new route when the 63 St connection opens; if not, they'll continue turning the Q at 21 St. until more stock shows up, and only use the connection for emergencies. Next: the tracks from 57/6 can enter Rockefeller Center on either the express or local track, but at the other end trains from Grand St. and the Manhattan Bridge can only enter Broadway-Lafayette on the express track, and trains from 2 Avenue and Rutgers Tunnel can only come in on the local track (the center tracks at 2 Av. were cut off by the Chrystie St. link); trains from the Williamsburg Bridge, if there were any, would also arrive on the local track. So, given that the north side of the Manhattan Bridge is at capacity, the new service will most likely run local to avoid switching in front of other trains, and terminate either at 2 Avenue or, if we're lucky, Church Av./Kings Highway.
One of the gentlemen here assures us that MTA has no plans to put the Q back on Broadway where it belongs, even if the Manhattan Bridge rehab is successful, so all 63 St. service will run via Sixth Avenue. A Williamsburg-Sixth Av-Washington Heights service would be fun, but we on this board seem to be the only ones interested in it.
"One of the gentlemen here assures us that MTA has no plans to put the Q back on Broadway where it belongs, even if the
Manhattan Bridge rehab is successful, so all 63 St. service will run via Sixth Avenue. A Williamsburg-Sixth Av-Washington
Heights service would be fun, but we on this board seem to be the only ones interested in it."
But the Broadway route is in desperate need of better service. Don't we matter as well?
N Broadway Local (Express?)
Q Broadway Express
R Broadway Local
Broadway service at this moment operates way below line capacity.As I sujested before, 'B'West End trains could be placed on the Broadway line with N/R SERVICE,via bway exp.to Astoria.B/N-EXP,R/W-LOCAL.[W being a rush hour filler to supplment N service from Astoria.]A new Z route could replace B service to the Bronx via Jamalca,Bway Bklyn,6 Avenue,Central Park West and Concourse.This could get rid of the overcroweding at the Delancey/Essex complex.Though routing from 6 ave.to Jamaica via the Eastern Lines would give riders a choice other than the massive overcroweding riders suffer daily on the E/F lines.Of course would have to operate express to/from Jamaica for it to be effective.That's why the KK/K route didnt survive. Riders didnt want to use an all local service when there was a all express line on 6 avenue.Ajustment would made to the J/M lines of course ,with trains terminating at Broad st[J]and Chambers st[M].
"Broadway service at this moment operates way below line capacity"
I guess you never rode the Broadway lines. It is way above compacity, especially the N that goes into Astoria. None of those other lines that run on sixth avenue could not even compare (B/D/F/Q).
N Broadway Local
You must be a Bway Line rider.You misunderstand.What I meant was Bway service is operated way below what its capable of running.With 2 north/southbound,express service could be utlized regardless of the lack of Manhattan Bridge routing.This was done a few years ago when all service across Manny B was stop due to midday bridge work. Removal of the M line from the montague st tunnel would make room for this new Bway exp. service.3 lines from the southern routes to Bway,3 lines to 6 ave. plus 1 from the Jamaica would be more than enough to fill the void where service is lacking.
Does anybody remember when on Mon-Sat there were 5 lines on the Broadway Lines Brighton Exp and Local, 4th Ave Local, Sea Beach and West End Exp, and only 2 on 6th Ave D & F, except during Rush Hours when the BB terminated at 34th St. And the Broadway Lines were always crowded. And the BMT was short of cars. Yes they could run another train on Broadway, why not???
Does anybody remember when on Mon-Sat there were 5 lines on the Broadway Lines Brighton Exp and Local, 4th Ave Local, Sea Beach and West End Exp, and only 2 on 6th Ave D & F, except during Rush Hours when the BB terminated at 34th St. And the Broadway Lines were always crowded. And the BMT was short of cars. Yes they could run another train on Broadway, why not???
I remember. It was before the BMT died on November 27, 1967.
1-Q-Broadway Brighton Express Via Bridge---57th St.-Brighton Beach
1-QB-Broadway Brighton Local Via Bridge----57th St.-Coney Island
1-QT-Broadway Brighton Local Via Tunnel----Astoria-Coney Island
2-RR-Broadway Fourth Ave. Local Via Tunnel-57th St. or 71-Continental Ave.-95th St. 4th Ave. Fort Hamilton
3-T-Broadway West End Express Via Bridge---Astoria-Coney Island
3-TT-West End Local (Shuttle)--------------36th St.-Coney Island
4-N-Broadway Sea Beach Express Via Bridge--57th St.-Coney Island
1961 up until the change, the QB went to Astoria, and the TT still ran to Chambers during weekdays.
1961 up until the change, the QB went to Astoria, and the TT still ran to Chambers during weekdays.
I just checked my "Official New York Subway Map and Guide" dated 1963. You are correct. When I made up the chart, I did it from memory at 3:42 in the morning about service that hasn't been used in 32 years.
One other thing: the QB and QT never ran at the same time. The QB was a late night and weekend service which had the Brighton line all to itself when it operated. I still remember seeing QB trains along Broadway on Saturdays during the fall of 1967, along with a T train or two. The Q and QT ran on weekdays 6:00 AM-7:00 PM.
Speaking of the T, by the mid-60s, it had been reduced to basically a rush hour and Saturday operation. During weekdays, it ran between Astoria and Coney Island 5:00 AM to 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM to 8:00 PM. On Saturdays, it ran between 57th St. and Coney Island 5:00 AM to 8:00 PM.
Even TT service varied depending on the time of day. During rush hours, it ran from Chambers St. to 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway, then during midday, it was extended to Coney Island while the T wasn't running. During late nights and on Sundays, it operated as a shuttle between 36th St. and Coney Island.
"I remember. It was before the BMT died on November 27, 1967.
1-Q-Broadway Brighton Express Via Bridge---57th St.-Brighton Beach
1-QB-Broadway Brighton Local Via Bridge----57th St.-Coney Island
1-QT-Broadway Brighton Local Via Tunnel----Astoria-Coney Island
2-RR-Broadway Fourth Ave. Local Via Tunnel-57th St. or 71-Continental Ave.-95th St. 4th Ave. Fort Hamilton
3-T-Broadway West End Express Via Bridge---Astoria-Coney Island
3-TT-West End Local (Shuttle)--------------36th St.-Coney Island
4-N-Broadway Sea Beach Express Via Bridge--57th St.-Coney Island"
So, So, Ssssaaaaaddddd.....
N Broadway Line
5-Culver Local Ditmas Ave-Chambers St via Nassau Loop Rush Hrs also prior to 1954 The Culver Ran some trains Express from Kings Hwy to Chambers St during Rush Hours. The local went by the Monteque Tunnel and the Exp via the Loop.
5-Culver Local Ditmas Ave-Chambers St via Nassau Loop Rush Hrs also prior to 1954 The Culver Ran some trains Express from Kings Hwy to Chambers St during Rush Hours. The local went by the Monteque Tunnel and the Exp via the Loop.
Good point, but this whole thing started as a discussion of Broadway BMT service. I was thinking of charting out the whole BMT - Southern Division, Eastern Division - Routes 1-16, but I restrained myself.
[I guess you never rode the Broadway lines. It is way above compacity, especially the N that goes into Astoria. None of those other lines that run on sixth avenue could not even compare (B/D/F/Q). ]
You're wrong. The Broadway lines are practically empty at any time of day between 57th Street and Canal St. compared to the 6th Ave lines between 50th and Grand.
[I guess you never rode the Broadway lines. It is way above compacity, especially the N that goes into Astoria. None of those other lines that run on sixth avenue could not even compare (B/D/F/Q). ]
You're wrong. The Broadway lines are practically empty at any time of day between 57th Street and Canal St. compared to the 6th Ave lines between 50th and Grand.
If this is true about Broadway being sparse and 6th Ave. being crowded, its only because better service is provided up 6th Ave. You have Culver, Brighton and West End trains going up 6th Ave., and also going over the bridge (not the F, yeah, I know). Why would anyone want to take the long way through the Montague St. Tunnel, when they can go over the bridge. People are not going to get off a B, D or Q and switch for a Broadway train that takes the long way through the tunnel. If the Chrystie St. connection was never built, I don't think people would be fighting their way to get to the 6th Ave. line. They would all go up Broadway. I'm sure that the walk for most people who work in that area is about the same to either line.
"If this is true about Broadway being sparse and 6th Ave. being crowded, its only because better service is provided up 6th Ave.
You have Culver, Brighton and West End trains going up 6th Ave., and also going over the bridge (not the F, yeah, I know). Why
would anyone want to take the long way through the Montague St. Tunnel, when they can go over the bridge. People are not going
to get off a B, D or Q and switch for a Broadway train that takes the long way through the tunnel. If the Chrystie St. connection
was never built, I don't think people would be fighting their way to get to the 6th Ave. line. They would all go up Broadway. I'm
sure that the walk for most people who work in that area is about the same to either line."
This is the point I was going to make earlier. Thanks BMT!
N BROADWAY LOCAL
The Broadway line could use express service in one way or another. That's where the extra capacity lies.
BTW, the N will always be the Broadway Express to me. That's what the original side route curtains on the R-32s said.
It should be a local in Manhattan since it's primarily designed to supplement F service from Queens. I think the likely southern terminal would be 2nd Ave although I heard once that the World Trade Center via switching to the 8th Ave Local at West 4th Street was under consideration but I think that would depend if the E replaces the C line via Cranberry St Tunnel to Brooklyn and goes via 8th Ave Exp south of 50th Street.
Problem is the need to switch back to local tracks near West 4th Street which would delay B and D trains to some degree. It could go all the way out to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge and the Brighton Sea Beach or West End, but that's highly unlikely. The interlockings at 47-50th Sts wouldn't be a problem since they were designed to allow 63rd St trains to access the exp or local tracks at speed.
A dark horse possibilty is an extension of the V all the way to Church Ave via Rutgers St tube supplementing G local service south of Bergen St and allowing the F to run express during weekday hours, but that depends on the MTA developing enough political willpower to push the whole thing through.
"E replaces the C line via Cranberry St Tunnel to Brooklyn
and goes via 8th Ave Exp south of 50th Street."
The E will never replace the C in Brooklyn. Especially since the C's new uptown terminal is nowhere near the length of its old Bronx terminal.
"V all the way to Church Ave via Rutgers St tube supplementing G local service"
My guess is the G will be turned at Hoyt and Schermerhorn Avs. This means the G will not only loose its East Queens terminal, but it South Brooklyn terminal as well. As a result, the G is fast becoming a cross borough shuttle inoppose to a regular subway line.
N Broadway Local
"Especially since the C's new uptown terminal is nowhere near the length of its old Bronx terminal."
But the C already terminates at WTC during evenings and weekends. And the old K (AA) service did that too. I don't see why the E can't be operated to Brooklyn (it once was).
No, the C Train runs between 168 Street - Euclid Avenue at ALL TIMES.
"No, the C Train runs between 168 Street - Euclid Avenue at ALL TIMES."
Not at night.
Three reason why the E should keep its WTC terminal: 1) not enough R32's cars, 2) most of the passengers using that line come from Manhattan, and, 3) Brooklyn does not warrent that service the E provides (E 5 vs C 8). As a matter of fact, during the rush hour period, the train is full by the time it reaches West 4th Street.
By the way, the C runs weekdays 6AM through 9PM to Euclid Avenue (Bklyn) and the World Trade Center other times except 12AM - 6AM.
During this time, the A runs local all stops from Canal Street to Euclid Avenue.
N Broadway Local
Where have YOU been??? The C runs to Euclid Ave all times except late night hours. The A runs express in Brooklyn on weekdays AND weekends.
As long as I been alive they always been local service in brooklyn during the weekend. Actually, one time only rush hour existed.
Well, unless you suffered an untimely death last May, what you say is no longer true. Why don't you get a map and look at the service guide? Or an A or C line schedule? Or if you look at the map, you'll notice all the local stops now have just a bold C, instead of a thin A and a thin C. And the express stops have a bold A & C instead of bold A and thin C.
Eugenius,
It's been a while since I rode the A express, so, when did this service changed?
N Broadway Local
Please read the original message again. I will not repeat myself.
Why was the extra service put in Eugenius?
N Broadway Lcl
The present service pattern along Fulton St. went into effect when the Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction began last spring. Luckily, the change turned out to be permanent.
I like the idea of my favorite train running express in Brooklyn most of the time.
Now, if only the Brighton line could get weekend express service ...
The Brighton NEVER had fullweekend Express Service. The Express did run on Saturdays, but never Sundays except when they extend the Franklin Shuttle in the 50s during the summer to Coney Island
The Fulton line, AFAIK didn't have full express service either.
That's correct. Prior to this past May, the only weekend express service the Fulton St. line ever saw, if you can call it that, was the JFK Express.
Yeah, and you couldn't catch that going to Manhattan unless you paid $4.00 from JFK, and the last stop you can catch going to the airport was from Jay St. (Borough Hall). Its like catching the N4 on Merrick Blvd going to Jamaica, they will not stop. heheh
I rode the JFK briefly, I walk on at W 4th, and was kicked off at Jay St.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
The A's always got priority over the JFK's. As a result, the JFK's could not compete. Thus, going out of service.
N Broadway Local
I think what really killed the JFK Express was when the A began running express in Brooklyn all day long during weekdays. Prior to that, the A ran express only during rush hours, and the JFK Express had the Fulton St. express tracks all to itself the rest of the time.
What about the Big A specials years ago? That ran on Saturdays.
You're right. I forgot about the Aqueduct Specials. We caught such a train once which was heading back to Manhattan after the racing was over. It was a train of R-1/9s and was very inconsistently marked. The side route signs on the first car were set to "S/Special" while the end route sign was set to either E or S; I can't remember which. The first car was either an R-1 or R-4, as it didn't have headlights. Now, THAT was a treat! After we got off at 42nd St., I watched it depart, and it turned off onto the Queens track. Larry Redbird R-33 posted once that such trains came out of Jamaica Yard and operated as E trains to Manhattan.
Now since I look back it is well worth it. First of all, the trains run very full from/to Far Rockaway. And secondly, they travel a great distance from the Euclid Avenue Station.
N Broadway Line
There is a plan to send the E to Brooklyn if the Manhattan Bridge goes. Then, the capacity would be needed from Brooklyn, and the A would go to Euclid (local), the E to the Rockaways, and the C to WTC.
Not that many Brighton riders could acces the Fulton line now because of the grossly limited capacity of the new Franklin Shuttle, but if the closure is long term, they would probably use the provisions built into the shuttle for full capacity to Fulton, and the additional Fulton local service would be needed.
There is a plan to send the E to Brooklyn if the Manhattan Bridge goes. Then, the capacity would be needed from Brooklyn, and the A would go to Euclid (local), the E to the Rockaways, and the C to WTC.
Not that many Brighton riders could acces the Fulton line now because of the grossly limited capacity of the new Franklin Shuttle, but if the closure is long term, they would probably use the provisions built into the shuttle for full capacity to Fulton, and the additional Fulton local service would be needed.
They would have to double-track the entire stretch of the Franklin Shuttle and lengthen the stations. The Shuttle could have the capacity to run 4 8-car trains. Fact is, it might not be a bad idea to run thru-Brighton service to Franklin Ave. if the Shuttle's capacity was beefed up.
It won't work, it's a waste.
N Broadway Local
Or perhaps eight 4-car shuttle trains.
Three reason why the E should keep its WTC terminal: 1) not enough R32's cars, 2) most of the passengers using that line come from Manhattan, and, 3) Brooklyn does not warrent that service the E provides (E 5 vs C 8). As a matter of fact, during the rush hour period, the train is full by the time it reaches West 4th Street.
*******************
THe E is fulll by the time its gets to W 4th, but that is just the front of the train, the back five cars are usually empty, this is due to all the buses that are in the front terminal exit at Parsons/Archer.
FrankD
Being that they shortend the cars on the C line, it would be beneficial to run the E to Brooklyn. But have it run to Beford Park where the CC/C use to run. But this should on be done, during rush hour service. The problem here is that the E would take so long, to get to and from Queens.
Another thought is having it run to Brooklyn making it the 8th Ave Express/and Fulton Express. The E would terminate at Euclid Ave. The E would run Express through Brookyln and Manhattan weekday and weekend, and running the A local the weekend, and express weekday.
Frank D
The E used to run to Brooklyn. I don't know why it was exchanged with the C/CC. I'd run the E to Euclid Ave instead, making both the A and E express in Manhattan.
They would need another local in Manhattan to service the WTC to 59th st. The C to me, seems to be the longest train to wait for. Like I said, maybe its just me. How about this...
Weekday
E - Queens Express / 8th Ave Express / Fulton St Express to Euclid
E - Fulton St Express / 8th Ave Express / Queens Express to Parsons
A - 8th Ave Express / Fulton St Express to Far Rockaway & Lefferts Blvd.
A - Fulton St Express / 8th Ave Express to 207th St
C - 8th Ave Local / Fulton St Local to Bedford Park
C - Fulton St Local / 8th Ave Local to 168th St.
Weekend
E - Queens Express / 8th Ave Express / Fulton St Exp to Bedford Park
E - Fulton St Exp. / 8th Ave Express / Queens Exp to Parsons
A - 8th Ave Express / Fulton St. Local to Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway
A - Fulton St. Local / 8th Ave Express to 207th St
C - 8th Ave Local to World Trade Center
C - 8th Ave Local to 168th St.
FrankD - Queens Blvd Exp.
"They would need another local in Manhattan to service the WTC to 59th st. The C to me, seems to be the longest train to wait for. Like I said, maybe its just me.
How about this...
Weekday
E - Queens Express / 8th Ave Express / Fulton St Express to Euclid
E - Fulton St Express / 8th Ave Express / Queens Express to Parsons
A - 8th Ave Express / Fulton St Express to Far Rockaway & Lefferts Blvd.
A - Fulton St Express / 8th Ave Express to 207th St
C - 8th Ave Local / Fulton St Local to Bedford Park
C - Fulton St Local / 8th Ave Local to 168th St.
Weekend
E - Queens Express / 8th Ave Express / Fulton St Exp to Bedford Park
E - Fulton St Exp. / 8th Ave Express / Queens Exp to Parsons
A - 8th Ave Express / Fulton St. Local to Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway
A - Fulton St. Local / 8th Ave Express to 207th St
C - 8th Ave Local to World Trade Center
C - 8th Ave Local to 168th St.
FrankD - Queens Blvd Exp.
In this case, the MTA is right. The E should stay at World Trade Center because that is where most of it's passengers come from. On the other hand, the C should be extended to Leffert Blvd (with some C's terminating at Euclid Avenue (B)).
Another idea I have for this line is to create a new line call the H. It will come from the 63rd Street tunnel ending at Rockaway Park. It will run local on sixth avenue, but express along Fulton Street. Meanwhile S service from Rock-Park to Far Rockaway could be run 24 hours a day. They (MTA) will have to Construct an additional track bay that parrallels the existing track bay which runs into Beach 90th Street. This will prevent delays between the A and the new H line.
N Broadway Local
The E did go to Brooklyn at one time, but only during rush hours beginning in, I believe, 1949. In those days, rush hour Fulton St. express service flipflopped between the A and the E.
I think the main reason for swapping CC/C and E service was to simplify things. Since the CC was a rush hour-only service back then, it was decided to extend it to Brooklyn and permanently terminate E trains at WTC. The A was already running express along Fulton St during rush hours, having flipflopped one last time with the E in 1973.
I believe, but not sure, the E was the original line of the Rockaways before it was replace by A.
N Broadway Line
You're probably right. The HH also ran out to the Rockaways when that line first opened. Essentially, the E ran out to the Rockaways during rush hours while the HH provided service the rest of the time.
When the Rockaway Line opened in the 50s it was the A that ran to Rockaway.
What I would like to see is service restored from 6 ave. to Jam. via the Jam. EL.As I said before,the KK/K LINE FAILED because it was poorly planed ,poorly operated,and to make it worst ,it was an all local service. From the begining this route ran the old used up R1/9 CARS thrown away from the Queens lines. As a matter of fact,the Eastern Divion has always been the last home of used rolling stock before the cutting torch.THAT includes the r40m/r42 cars running there now.THEY are one of the worst cars on the system besides the old r44b.f.o.h.and the present R68 cars.Anyway,this slow dirty service truly left riders with something to be desired. LOW RIDERSHIP? I would think so!! If this service was run with modern equipment,with EXPRESS SERVICE,I believe it would definetly work,better than expected. Reduces M service to rush hour status, route Z trains to JAMAICA CENTER from upper Manhattan and spilt J trains between J.C and Rockaway Parkway[going there middays and evenings.I believe the changes could work if given the chance,and given the chance it WILL WORK!! Riders will respond positivly to the new service changes because of new options.NOT EVERYONE'S GOING DOWNTOWN!! Just look at Delancy/Essex transfer station! I truly would like to see this service restored.WE DESERVE IT!!I would love to hear from other riders or buffs who agree or disagree. thank you.
Cheer up, you'll get some new stock in a couple of years, at least on the "L". And the R40Ms are better than the R42s (and the Slant 40s are better than both).
Anything you run to Rockaway Pkwy via Bway Brooklyn should wear the "K" sign, like the old #14, a separate designation.
Wayne
What's wrong with the more modern R42?
Wayne.
N Broadway Local
I'm all for restoring K service. They should run it express on Broadway and local on 6th Ave. I agree about the Jamaica Center and Rockaway Parkway terminals for the K. What failed in the 1970's could succeed in the 2000's, especially if it ran express in Brooklyn instead of local.
They won't now, because Eastern div. train only use 8 60ft cars, so this would be cutting capacity. (Just like making the M the main local on the Brighton again). In the 70's you had all of this, but mainline riders are used to 2 decades of full length trains and noone's going to want a step backwards like this.
What we need is such a service on WEEKENDS, where most people go to midtown instead of downtown.
They won't now, because Eastern div. train only use 8 60ft cars, so this would be cutting capacity. (Just like making the M the main local on the Brighton again). In the 70's you had all of this, but mainline riders are used to 2 decades of full length trains and noone's going to want a step backwards like this.
What we need is such a service on WEEKENDS, where most people go to midtown instead of downtown.
Providing 8-car trains from the Eastern Division up 6th Ave. wouldn't be a step backwards. People on 6th Ave. typically aren't getting on a train at W4th St. to go to Rockefeller Center, or vice-versa. They're getting on a train to go home. If home is in the direction the Broadway-Brooklyn El, it would be easier to take 1 train instead of 2, having to change at Essex. Keep service the way it is, and they have to get off their 10-car F-Train and get their 8-car train on the J,M or Z at Essex. These people would have to let the B, D or Q go by and wait for an F, just to transfer at Delancey. So, what's the problem in putting an 8-car rush hour service in on the 6th Ave. Local? If they would have to wait for an F anyway, why not provide them with K service? Not everyone works in the Financial District. Plenty of people work in the Midtown area. Having all Eastern Division service go down the Centre St. line is a waste. That is like having all Queens IND service go down the Crosstown line, making everybody bound for Manhattan switch for the N or 7 at Queens Plaza with a free transfer from the IND.
They're getting on a train to go home. If home is in the direction the Broadway-Brooklyn El, it would be easier to take 1 train instead of 2, having to change at Essex. Keep service the way it is, and they have to get off their 10-car F-Train and get their 8-car train on the J,M or Z at Essex. These people would have to let the B, D or Q go by and wait for an F, just to transfer at Delancey. So, what's the problem in putting an 8-car rush hour service in on the 6th Ave. Local?
Believe me, I live over there, and I get sick of all the transfers, especially with a wife and friends who do not like transit and transfering.(I wish they would have at least built the connection between Bowery and Grand to give us direct transfers to the B,D,Q). But I know better than to expect them to cross eastern div. trains in front of the F during rush hour, even if there may be some capacity. There are more riders coming from Brooklyn (the Culver) and going to Queens, than are coming from the Eastern Div.(And the F does suffer many delays going into Queens, reducing any additional capacity). And definately don't expect them to through run the short trains as the new 63rd St service. (The original idea for the V as I mentioned in the other branch of theis thread). The whole idea is to use up the capacity as much as possible, so short trains are out of the picture. So knowing the types of ideas the planners have ruled out, I'm trying to get them to consider weekend service, sinc the M doesn't even go that far, and I'm left with four transfers many times.
Actually, F trains are typically 8 cars long as well, if we're talking about R-46s.
Actually, F trains are typically 8 cars long as well, if we're talking about R-46s.
No, this conversation is about 8-car 60-footers. The K used R-1/9's. The Eastern Division doesn't use 75' cars and is limited to 8-car trains of 60-footers, due to platform length constraints.
Hey look guys,the main reason why I wrote this post is because I wondered if anyone thought the Z train along 6 Avenue was a good idea.Well,I guess just maybe we have more YEH than NAY. The point is,most riders would truly like to travel uptown from the Eastern lines with out transfering 2 or 3 times. Riders on the Queens Blvd line had always made sure they had a voice in operations planing for the E,F,G,R LINES. WE SHOULD TOO!! Thank you all.
Hey look guys,the main reason why I wrote this post is because I wondered if anyone thought the Z train along 6 Avenue was a good idea.Well,I guess just maybe we have more YEH than NAY. The point is,most riders would truly like to travel uptown from the Eastern lines with out transfering 2 or 3 times. Riders on the Queens Blvd line had always made sure they had a voice in operations planing for the E,F,G,R LINES. WE SHOULD TOO!! Thank you all.
I agree. The thing is, the people from Queens are more affluent and have more influence that those who live in the poor areas of Brooklyn, near the Broadway El. Isn't politics wonderful?! BTW, I'm an Ex-Queensite, myself.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT. the lines though our neighborhood are considered LOW PRIORITY,because it's lower class ,so called welfare blocks and other things I won't mention.The T.A.s been crappin' on us for years because there's been no oppostion to their operations planning. That needs to end. Just take a look at what happend to the Myrtle Avenue EL.
"THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT. the lines though our neighborhood are considered LOW PRIORITY,because it's lower class ,so called welfare blocks and other things I won't mention.The T.A.s been crappin' on us for years because there's been no oppostion to their operations planning."
The J, M and Z also aren't very heavily used like the A, E, and F lines.
N Broadway Line
YOU WONDER WHY?!!!If the service available there had more options ,I guess more riders would use them. I truly believe that service has been cut,sliced,chopped down to almost nothing intintionaly in order to keep that so called LOW PRORITY STATUS. Maybe if we were as rich as the riders that live in Rego Park or Woodhaven or even Park Slope we would get better results.WHEN IT COMES TO THE RIDERS OF THE BROADWAY EL ,OUR TRAIN'S ARE LESS THAN 'RAPID'!!!
Ridgewood is Queens, and has working class people, and on weekends we have it the worst. At least the J goes somewhere in Manhattan. But all the working class people use their cars on off hours, and even the minority car services are all over. I don't know why they seem to think this is an underpopulated area.
Anyway, I do have a letter to Cathy Nolan on this subject on my hard drive which I will finish and run over to the office today or tommorrow. She helped get us more frequent bus service on some lines.
Ridgewood is Queens, and has working class people, and on weekends we have it the worst. At least the J goes somewhere in Manhattan. But all the working class people use their cars on off hours, and even the minority car services are all over. I don't know why they seem to think this is an underpopulated area.
The Myrtle Ave. Shuttle is a throwback to the days when only the MJ used to run during off-hours. They tore down the el south of Broadway, and just shortened the MJ to the M Shuttle we have today. Hey, at least with the MJ, you were able to at least get to Downtown Brooklyn. Now, you're stuck with a shuttle to B'way-Myrtle and a wait for the J to go to Lower Manhattan, like you really need Lower Manhattan on the weekwnds. You're better off using your car off hours. Go shopping in Nassau County. If you need to go into the City, drive to the Queens Blvd. line.
That is, if I can get out of here with the traffic packed streets, and find parking when I get back. An area like this should not be a car oriented neighborhood, like outlying areas with no direct transit links at all. I know the MJ would have helped alot. It would even help in rush hours, when the M is delayed coming from the southern div., and then held for all the other trains passing over the grade crossing. (And they tore it down for a project that is only within the last decade completed!)
I've heard the objection that the Eastern Division got screwed in the dual contracts. One co-workers says that Hylan was from Bushwick and that's one reason the Eastern Division did so well from the IND, and would have done even better in the second system.
If the G ran direct to Manhattan, and operated in a loop, I'd say the Eastern Division was better than the southern -- even if the Broadway line was torn down. The Fulton St line, which replaced the el, is quick and reliable compared with, for example, the Brighton. The L ain't bad either, although it's a hike from most of Ridgewood.
The Manhattan Bridge, and local-only service on the F, has really taken the Southern Division down a few pegs. One could argue that the Eastern Division is a good as it ever was.
What limits the ED is it's narrow access to lines in Manhattan, with the JMZ being only available to lower Manhattan and the L being available only alng 14th St. 3 out of ever 4 riders of these lines have to transfer to other lines to get to their locations. The J/M and Z lines are also screwed becuase of how they're designed, with that killer curve at Crescent really slows things up, the lack of express service east of Myrtle, (skip stop is nice, but a 3 track line all the way to Jamaica would be better) and that crappy grade crossing outside Myrtle Ave. all conspire to make the J a SLOW line. Imagine the J if it was elevated all the way from Eastern Pkwy to Jamaica along Jamaica Ave, with no curve at Crescent, a middle express track (similiar to the Flushing line), no grade crossing at Myrtle/Bway, and having the train use a tunnel instead of the Willy B to get into Manhattan? Supthin Blvd to Chambers St. in under 30 minutes? Definate possibility.
"What limits the ED is it's narrow access to lines in Manhattan, with the JMZ being only available to lower Manhattan and the L being available only alng 14th St."
The L is not as limited because it crosses almost every line (A,C,E,F,G,J,M,N,R,4,5,6). On the other hand, since the J/M/Z goes right into downtown Manhattan, it's quite a bit useful than it's Brooklyn cousin, G.
"The
J/M and Z lines are also screwed becuase of how they're designed, with that killer curve at Crescent really slows things up, thelack of express service east of Myrtle, (skip stop is nice, but a 3 track line all the way to Jamaica would be better) and that crappy grade crossing outside Myrtle Ave. all conspire to make the J a SLOW line. Imagine the J if it was elevated all the way from Eastern Pkwy to Jamaica along Jamaica Ave, with no curve at Crescent, a middle express track (similiar to the Flushing line), no grade crossing at Myrtle/Bway, and having the train use a tunnel instead of the Willy B to get into Manhattan? Supthin Blvd to Chambers St. in under 30 minutes? Definate possibility."
I agree. Replacement of that third track will really speed things. Especially a track that diverges from the main route which will avoid the curve at Cypress Hills.
One, do you think it's going to be built? And when it is finished, do you expect the ridership to increase?
N Broadway Local
(Eliminate the curve)
I surveyed Cypress Hills awhile back. Seems like the better housing, and therefore the richer neighbors, are up the hill from Jamaica Ave. You'd be moving the El closer to them by eliminating the curve. Not likely. Throwing even more money at the problem, you could have it descend to a subway on Jamaica and hook into the Fulton St local, while having one of the Fulton St trains diverge to the L line. Not likely either.
Actually, I'd demolish the entire Fulton St. portion and build a new el from Cypress Hills to East NY. But that's never gonna happen.
That is, if I can get out of here with the traffic packed streets, and find parking when I get back. An area like this should not be a car oriented neighborhood, like outlying areas with no direct transit links at all. I know the MJ would have helped alot. It would even help in rush hours, when the M is delayed coming from the southern div., and then held for all the other trains passing over the grade crossing. (And they tore it down for a project that is only within the last decade completed!)
If you are willing to pay a second fare, you can take the Q-38 bus from Ridgewood to the Woodhaven Blvd. station on the IND Queens Line. The Q-38 runs on Metropolitan Ave. right in front of the Myrtle Line terminal.
I have to take the slow Q-58 to get to that.
If you are willing to pay a second fare...
Why would you need to pay a second fare?
Why would you need to pay a second fare?
Is Metrocard honored on Triboro Coach Corp. buses?
"Is Metrocard honored on Triboro Coach Corp. buses?"
Yes
Ok. I didn't know that.
Why bother? Those trains are practically empty when they enter the Essex Street Station.
N Broadway Local
Why bother? Those trains are practically empty when they enter the Essex Street Station.
N Broadway Local
during rush hour? Practically empty? You've got to be kidding. Don't you think you're exaggerating just a bit?
I think it would be a great idea for the Z (or K) to run up 6th Ave. again. Express in Brooklyn and local in Manhattan would be the obvious choice, since the tracks from the Williamsburg Bridge lead into the local (F-line) tracks at Bway./Lafayette. But where would it go then? Logically up CPW, but that means switching over to the middle tracks at W4th St. (to the 8th Ave. line) or 34th St. (replacing the B train). I vote for 8th Ave. at W4th St. 8 60' cars isn't all that bad, that's what the Concourse/8th Ave. line had before the switch of northern terminals. Staying on the local track on 6th Ave. and then back out to Queens is not bad, since the line would serve 2 markets, but it would look silly on the destination boards.
I think if you were going to revive the K, running it from Canarsie and then as an express from East New York to Marcy Ave. would work the best during rush hours. In Manhattan, it could switch to the Eighth Ave. local track and run local from West Fourth to East 168th St. The other change would be the C and E would have to swap southern terminals, with the E running express in Manhattan during rush hour to avoid having three lines on the Eigth Ave. local tracks between West Fourth and 50th Street.
Using the K as the rush hour local on Eighth Ave. would allow the B to run via the 63rd St. tunnel to Queens all times once the Q is shifted back to Broadway. The only people who would lose service would be at Spring Street and Sixth Ave., though WTC passengers would have a longer walk to reach the E.
I Like the Idea of the K running from Jamaica Center on the Jamaica Broadway Brooklyn Line, up 6th Ave, out the Queens Blvd Line to Jamaica Center. This is the 6th Ave Local leaving Jamaica Center, making all stops via Manhatten to Jamaica Center. At least the crew can begin and start at the same place.
It was a great conception when I first heard it here last year, but realistically, the tabloids and the TV stations would have a field day with the plan, calling it the "Train to Nowhere" or something like that, and the MTA would back down.
Plus, running it from Rockaway Pkwy. to 168th St.-Wash. Hgts. would give an area of Brooklyn a direct one-seat connection to midtown Manhattan for the first time ever. (Though with the new signals going in on the L, that line won't be sharing track with any other trains until the rest of the system starts to upgrade)
A waste!
No Z train can't compete with the E or A train.
N Broadway Line
It's not competing -- rush hours, the E and A would run express between 50th and Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the E would run Fulton Local, the C and K (or Z) would run local between 168th and West Fourth, with the C going to WTC and the K/Z heading off to Williamsburg. They'd never share a single inch of trackage, and only 23rd and Spring Street would lose E service, with the K/Z replacing it at 23rd.
You could replace it with the V from Queens, and then the B would become an extra service to uptown.
(This would actually give Queens riders displaced from the WTC terminal a more direct route!)
V service to the World Trade Center? That ought to be considered. But the V should definitely run as a local along 6th Avenue so it would not delay B and D trains while going uptown or F trains going downtown. And the 6th Avenue Subway would have a direct route to the Trade Center area (no more need to change at West 4th). The E should be made an 8th Avenue Express south of 50th Street and be operated to Brooklyn.
"The E should be made an 8th Avenue Express south of 50th Street and be operated to Brooklyn."
That will not be a good idea. First of all, the local riders along the 8th Line will be short-changed because the C runs at a 8 minute heyway. And second, the new E express service will delay the A express service which runs very well during rush hours.
N Broadway Local
Why is everyone calling it the V Train, What happened to the H, or K which was an original 6th Avenue Local, or even the T.
Why is everyone calling it the V Train, What happened to the H, or K which was an original 6th Avenue Local, or even the T
K would be appropriate. HH was the Rockaway Shuttle. T was the Broadway West End Express. I wouldn't use H or T.
When AA was single lettered, they chose K (I imagine, because it looks and sounds like "A"), and "H" was the Rockaway Shuttle, which it had been before.
So "V" was chosen to replace "K". (It was originally planned to run to the Eastern div. as well as 63rd St., but now its southern terminal is not yet decided).
They could have chosen T to replace K. Why not T? Is T going to be a new Broadway service?
Who knows what letters they will choose when the new service is in. we will just have to wait.
T is on the R-44/46 electronic signs as an extra West End service (via Broadway, 6th Av. or Nassau. It doesn't have any Queens terminals beyond 21st St, Ditmars, & Queensboro Plaza.)
I hope they use it when the Manhattan Bridge switches sides in a couple of years.
I was down at Canal Street a few weeks ago, and saw the Northbound Platform is almost finished. Also the 63rd Street Connection tracks have been installed. Here is my prediction: The 63rd Street Connection will open earlier than August 2001, and the Manhattan Bridge South side tracks may open earlier than Mid-2003. Are these good predictions?
James Li
As one who does predictions for a living, I can tell you with authority that you cannot judge if predictions are good until the predicted events occur.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
Nicely put. I was going to say your guess is as good as mine.
According to NYCDOT's website all work on the south side
of the Manhattan Bridge is scheduled for completion by the
end of March 2001. Since this is the last contract for the
south side, I don't see waiting to 2003, especially since the
north side of the bridge must be closed for about 1 1/2 years
for repainting of the steel work. More likely is the south side
tracks with be reopened by the summer of 2001.
I remember as a kid back in the 50s, that they never closed the bridge for painting. They usually started on the Brooklyn Side, painted the rust proofing, a month after it dried another crew came on and did the painting, and when they finished in 5 years. They started all over again. It was done on all the East River Bridges, and they were never closed, except for a lane closure for a few hours each week. Why do they have to close the Northside again?
Maybe it has something to do with asbestos removal.
It will probably be the Spring pick, around the end of April. That' when those changes usually occur. Meanwhile, the 63rd St connection will be ready within a year, and some GO's will even operate through it with passengers, but regular service will still wait another year, most likely until they get new cars. There aren't enough now.
T is on the R-44/46 electronic signs as an extra West End service (via Broadway, 6th Av. or Nassau. It doesn't have any Queens terminals beyond 21st St, Ditmars, & Queensboro Plaza.)
I hope they use it when the Manhattan Bridge switches sides in a couple of years.
I'm sure those electronic signs can be programmed to read anything.
Two seperate items have come to my attention, that lead me to believe that things are rapidly getting out of control.
First is the mayor weighing into the fray. He's threatening to go to court and have the TWU permanently lose their 'Dues Check-off' privilages. This will permanently cripple the TWU and on top of any Taylor Law penalties will virtually spell the end of local 100.
Second is the news report of an attempted act of sabotage on the 8th Avenue line Friday afternoon. if this is true, it is certainly going to weaken the TWU position in the court of public opinion. I also think, if true, it shows an uncharacteristicly irresponsible side to organized labor.
How is what was reported on the news posible? Did someone try to throw a switch manually? The media is not being responsible.
I have not seen written accounts yet but it appears that someone got into a tower at 30th St & 8th avenue and tried to switch locals to the express track. Again the media is sensationalizing it without giving much detail. I would add that inless the signals were tampered with, the operator would be aware of the diverging route and a collission would not be possible.
It was a tough ride home on the A Friday night. I guess that explains it. The thing that concerns me is that if the rhetoric gets hot, there may be some out of control nut out there who pulls a stunt. There are enough nuts around.
As for the Mayor, its easy to see how this thing could become politicized. I'll bet Rudy sees this as an attack by Hillary and her union supporters, or Pataki and his MTA, or both. After all, in his head, everything is about his next job.
One ugly incident and everyone loses.
As for the Mayor, its easy to see how this thing could become politicized. I'll bet Rudy sees this as an attack by Hillary and her union supporters, or Pataki and his MTA, or both. After all, in his head, everything is about his next job.
Well, as a wise man one said,"Even if you are paranoid, it doesn't mean that they are not out to get you!"
I always thought an tower operator was assigned to that tower as a normal thing during the rush. On that trip, I was rerouted down Sixth Ave. On my following trip at 34/8 (around 7 PM) just past the 10 car marker I observed TA workers in white hats talking to some cops. They told the cops that signal cable was missing. This is a very common occurrence. It happens quite often. All of a sudden, Rudy becomes a transportaion expert (isn't he an expert in everything!) and calls it sabotage.
I know that cable thievery is rampant in cetain areas of the system. As a flagger I see more than a few projects lose a fortune in tools, supplies and materiel. Copper cables being prime among them.
He's an expert in most things, especially fighting those LIBERAL DEMOCRATS! I guess you're one of them if you don't agree with him on anything, like you've indicated in previous posts.
We are Rudy's worst nightmare right now, strike or no strike. Because he knows damn well that whatever TWU settles for, the city unions, which he does have jurisdiction over, will want exactly what transit gets. Don't you think that some of those skells you see on your train are there because of his homeless policies? He wants them off the streets. So where do they go? On your train & mine, making the ride unpleasant for your customers & mine. And WE are cursed out when we have to get them off the train if the train lays up. He sure as hell is an expert on police matters too. He wanted Transit and NYPD merged. I don't know about you, but since that happened, I don't see cops walking thru subway cars patroling like they used to. Howie Safir, a businessman/administrator becomes Fire Commissioner, then gets promoted to Police Commissioner. Jealous Rudy runs Bill Bratton out of town because Bill got a lot of newspaper & magazine publicity & credit for crime going down a few years ago. What is the purpose of the traffic light on Metropolitan Ave. at Christ the King High School? It runs 24/7, wastes electricity other times, while a cop is there anyway to direct traffic and ignores the traffic light anyway while the adolescents are arriving & leaving school? Because one of his Republican stooges (and State Senator of the area) is also the head of the Board of Trustees, while another Trustee is a Republican City Councilman from the area, Rudy's Republican mouthpiece in the City Council because the Democrats are in the majority. And that same State Senator fired all those teachers at that same Catholic High School a number of years ago because of a strike. Later, he and his board were found to be bargaining in bad faith by the state PERB! But he got his own way. Bet you the principal of that school is a registered Republican & financially active in the party too! Rudy wants control over everthing & everybody. Isn't it odd you never see him with Mrs. Rudy? Finally, yes, I do give him credit for one thing. But he is the kind of guy who will pat you on the back with one hand & stab you with the other. The stopping of illegal sale and shooting off of fireworks. No other mayor was successful at this. Yes, he took away peoples' childish fun, but Rudy, sparklers too? But at least we no longer have kids losing fingers & hands every July 4th, not to mention CupCake (our dog) doesn't have to run thru the house anymore looking for a non-exixtent quiet place to hide!
As unreasonable as Rudy has been, as soon as the Dems regain control of City Hall, it'll be Dinkins II.
Crime will go back up, the homeless will prowl the streets, farebeating and graffiti will creep back in (graffiti already is) and, yes, the firecrackers will come back too.
And Al Sharpton and Rosie O'Donnell will be grinning from ear to ear. I think I'll move to Jersey...
I see this strike as part of a pattern. Despite all the progress that has been made, NYC residents still pay higher taxes and get less in return than just about anyone just about anywhere. And it still has over half a million people, and half a million fewer jobs than a place of comparable size. The debt is soaring, and there are not significant public improvments being made, aside from Rudy's luxo minor league stadia.
But just for a moment, the city is off its back and staggering to its feet. And just that fast, all the WINNERS -- those who already get more than the rest of us -- are on its back trying to suck the blood out before others drive the city back to its knees first.
1) Businesses who walk into city hall and, voila, don't have to pay taxes.
2) Health and social services organizations dramatizing the plight of the poor and demanding more funds, while failing to explain why the poor are so bad off given the poverty industry here already gets so much more money than elsewhere.
3) Suburban Republicans getting ever more of our state tax dollars diverted their way.
4) The UNIONS WITH THE HIGHEST AVERGAGE PAY and a significant percentage of suburban commuters.
It's a feeding frenzy. When the recession hits, we know who the losers will be. Same as always.
1) Taxes will rise.
2) Services will be cut to pay off the debt.
3) The Unions will agree to mass layoffs, and big cuts in services, and then a two tier contract with lower wages and less benefits for new hires. Union members who do not suffer from any of this will retaliate by doing less work.
4) Public works will be cancelled, and deferred maintenance will set in.
5) The schools will be allowed to become even worse, except of course for gifted and magnet programs, Staten Island, and eastern Queens.
The past will just keep repeating itself until we get rid of the Democrats AND the Republicans. I actually wrote the Independence Party about this, but state and local issues do not concern them. They're worried about Buchanan and Trump.
The Reform Party is a joke. Buchanan, Trump, Ventura, and the anarchist, Lenora Fulani, under one banner? It's ridiculous.
And you mean the Dems can't scare up one homegrown person to run for the NY State senate seat?
As for this Senate race: The Republicans shot themselves in the foot by shooting down the better man, Rick Lazio. A pox on Pataki and his Slave Master D'Amato for that fiasco.
Between Rudy G. and Hillary -- it's hard to believe that is the best we can do in this state from either party. Pathetic!
Doug aka BMTman
Larry, that's why the Labor Party Advocates and the Working Families Party are two that are starting to grow at a great rate. However, they do not have the significant numbers to put their own candidate on the ballot (I could be wrong here -- LPA MIGHT have a guy on for Mayor next year).
Labor Party Advocates is made up of Trade Union groups that are tired of being sold out by big Labor (national orgs) that almost always knee-jerks to the Democrats. But they also don't see a viable alternative in the Republicans who are usually backed by big business. The only alternative is to go the route of creating your own truly independent candidate through grass roots coalitions. It may take awhile, but if it snowballs it could turn into a true third party alternative to the Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dumb see-sawing that has occurred for much too long in this country.
If I can find the website, I'll e-mail you the addresses for LPA and the WFP.
Doug aka BMTman
Larry, that's why the Labor Party Advocates and the Working Families
Party are two that are starting to grow at a great rate. However, they
do not have the significant numbers to put their own candidate on the
ballot (I could be wrong here -- LPA MIGHT have a guy on for Mayor next
year).
Labor Party Advocates is made up of Trade Union groups that are tired of
being sold out by big Labor (national orgs) that almost always
knee-jerks to the Democrats. But they also don't see a viable
alternative in the Republicans who are usually backed by big business.
The only alternative is to go the route of creating your own truly
independent candidate through grass roots coalitions. It may take
awhile, but if it snowballs it could turn into a true third party
alternative to the Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dumb see-sawing that has
occurred for much too long in this country.
If I can find the website, I'll e-mail you the addresses for LPA and the
WFP.
Doug aka BMTman(known earlier today as Det. Munch)
[I see this strike as part of a pattern. Despite all the progress that has been made, NYC residents still pay higher taxes and get less in return than just about anyone just about anywhere. And it still has
over half a million people, and half a million fewer jobs than a place of comparable size. The debt is soaring, and there are not significant public improvments being made, aside from Rudy's luxo minor league stadia.
But just for a moment, the city is off its back and staggering to its feet. And just that fast, all the WINNERS -- those who already get more than the rest of us -- are on its back trying to suck the
blood out before others drive the city back to its knees first.]
That soaring debt may contain the seeds of the city's salvation. What would be the absolute best thing that ever could happen - it almost did in the 1970s, but the opportunity was lost - is for the city to go bankrupt and default on its debt. Then, we might see the federal government step in and put the city under the thumb of a control board - which hopefully would be comprised of anti-urban Sunbelt types. They would have the power to take dictatorial control and dismantle the whole structure of the city. There'd be massive downsizing of city government, Medicaid spending would be slashed, the construction unions would be broken, skells would be swept away, hopsitals and homeless shelters would be closed left and right, and all the money-grubbing special interest groups would be told to jump in a lake. Of course, the f***heads on the Upper West Side and their toadies at the _Times_ would go mental, but there's nothing they could do. Eventually, a "new" New York City would emerge - economically dynamic, with construction cranes on every block, and one that's motivated by the credo that a rising tide lifts all boats. People would be too busy making big money to worry about society's downtrodden. Not that that would matter, as the poor would themselves be able to share in the city's unimaginable riches. In short, NYC would no longer be Limousine Liberal Paradise, but Atlanta North. And we'd all be better for that.
In short, NYC would no longer be Limousine Liberal Paradise, but Atlanta North. And we'd all be better for that.
Its ironic. Atlanta for a long time was referred to as "The New York of the South".
A control board good for the city? Hardly. They'd suck even more out than they do now.
REMEMBER: local government is about the same share of the economy in NYC as in the U.S., DESPITE the fact that the T.A. and CUNY count as local goverment here. State plus local government is WAY below average, and WAY below the rest of the state.
PRIVATE CONTRACTORS GET MORE HERE, NOT GOVERNMENT WORKERS: and Medicaid and the rest are MANDATED BY STATE LAW. THERE IS NOTTHING THE CITY CAN DO ABOUT IT.
A control board would decide that the burden imposed on the city is insupportable, and that on that basis the city should be abandoned.
[bankruptcy control board]
[PRIVATE CONTRACTORS GET MORE HERE, NOT GOVERNMENT WORKERS: and
Medicaid and the rest are MANDATED BY STATE LAW. THERE IS NOTTHING THE CITY CAN DO ABOUT IT.]
Bankruptcy trustees in regular cases have far greater powers than might be imagined. In the case of a municipal bankruptcy, certainly not a regular case, the control board's powers would be enormous - certainly enough to override state-law mandates and allow huge cuts in Medicaid. As far as the private contactors are concerned, a control board could find easy solutions. For starters, they could break city contracts with union contractors - yes, contract-breaking would be within their authority - and hire non-union contractors, bringing in workers from other parts of the country or foreign countries if necessary. Private businesses could be arm-twisted into blackballing all union contractors. Before long, New York would enjoy a taste of Sunbelt-style prosperity - and *everyone* would benefit.
Yeah, that might be true but I'm sure crime was down, there were less homeless, farebeaters, graffiti and firecrackers in Nazi Germany, Facist Italy and Communist countries too.
Any civilized society would not allow its disabled to die on the streets HOMELESS DEATHS where you are forced to ride the subway
because thats the only place you can have heat!!
the mayor of new york pushed the homeless ito areas where they are least likely to be seen they didnt go away just to a different areas
and locations subway lines the transit police sometimes go!!!
RUDYS NEXT NIGHTMARE is now forcing the homeless to work ????
now so we stay on the topic of SUB TALK what is he going to do force
TRANSIT WORKERS WHO WASH AND CLEAN SUBWAY CARS- FIRE THEM.........
then REPLACE THEM WITH WELFARE TO FORCED WORK AND HOMELESS SHELTER
PERSONS ETC.... who are disabled weak unable to do WORKFARE !!! ??
in denver near the light rail they just shoot and kill the homeless!!
i hope RUDYS FORCED WORKFARE FOR HOMELESS SHELTER gets shot down!!!
go after people who commit real crimes in transit stations not the
weak homeless and didsbled and helpless
Why is it right to fire TRANSIT EMPLOYEES and replace them with
unskilled disabled welfare reciepents and homeless shelter residents?
Well, at least you're not talking about railfan windows.
Our mayor is doing the right thing, homeless people on the streets are like garbage on the curb, or subway rats. Nobody should live like that, nor should anybody leech off of services provided by taxpayers money. If they refuse to work, they are useless, and let them starve to death and die, it'll do us all a favor. Those who are unable to work, are suffering on the streets, when they can be provided services that can help them with their mental or physical problems. As for the children, they are suffering needlessly because their parents are those same homeless people who refuse to work, and they would be better off in a loving family where they can grow up to be productive members of society instead of the parasitic garbage their parents are.
BTW, nobody said anything about having them work in transit.
Maybe a homeless person could be put to work doing your job.
This Workfare BS is being used to break unions and get rid of civil service job titles.
You have the wrong attitude my friend.
Doug aka BMTman
Then if they can't work, what good are they?
They could take the jobs currently occupied by illegal aliens.
Our mayor is doing the right thing, homeless people on the streets are like garbage on the curb, or subway rats. Nobody should live like that, nor should anybody leech off of services provided by taxpayers money. If they refuse to work, they are useless, and let them starve to death and die, it'll do us all a favor. Those who are unable to work, are suffering on the streets, when they can be provided services that can help them with their mental or physical problems. As for the children, they are suffering needlessly because their parents are those same homeless people who refuse to work, and they would be better off in a loving family where they can grow up to be productive members of society instead of the parasitic garbage their parents are.
Allowing the homeless to starve to death is not the way to solve the problem. Whatever problem is causing these people to live like this can be addressed and dealt with, in a humane manner (and I don't mean lethal injection, either!). Eugenius, do you think that homelessness is a New York problem? If you do, I have news for you. It is a problem in cities all over the country. Some of the homeless are educated people who at one time had good jobs. They slipped into this lifestyle when they became chemically dependent. Being an alcoholic or a drug addict often times carries a very high price-tag. Unfortunately, some of what you say is true. Kids that grow up homeless don't want anything better. They don't know of anything better. Generational homelessness, unfortunately is a shocking reality, just like generational welfare. But, there's no excuse for de-humanizing people by referring to them as garbage. That kind of talk bears a striking resemblance to Germany in the early 1930's. The "Final Solution" of the 1940's was the result of dehumanizing a group of people.
I'm sorry that I forgot to mention substance abuse, which is a very big (if not the biggest) cause of homelessness. In that case, then the government can provide treatment, if that's successful, then they can become productive members of society again.
Now I don't advocate killing anybody.
I'm sorry that I forgot to mention substance abuse, which is a very big (if not the biggest) cause of homelessness. In that case, then the government can provide treatment, if that's successful, then they can become productive members of society again.
Now I don't advocate killing anybody.
I know you didn't. But we shouldn't let them starve to death either. As smelly, filthy and repulsive as they can be, they're not garbage. They still are human beings. We should all be thankful that we're not in their position. Here's a scary thought - circumstances can change and any of us could wind up like them. I say this because there are educated street people. A good guess is that many of them grew up in decent middle class households. Not all of them are generational. Also, most are harmless. You don't bother them, they won't bother you. Not every homeless person has a brick under his arm. That was just one sicko.
As for the reasons for homelessness:
1. Chemical Dependency
2. Mental Illness
3. Disability
4. Generational
5. A childhood runaway that grew up on the streets
There may be others that I'm not thinking about.
I agree BMT LINES. And furthermore, Rudy G. and the NY PRESS were WRONG in jumping the gun by labeling the brick throwing SOB a "homeless" person. It turned out he was a career criminal, but was far from being homeless. He even came from a middle-class upbringing in the suburban town of Freeport.
Rudy should have apologized to the homeless AND the institutions that try to help the less fortunate (and of course are grossly underfunded).
Doug aka BMTman
"(and of course are grossly underfunded)."
Only because more money is spent on the agencies than on the services that they're supposed to provide.
I agree BMT LINES. And furthermore, Rudy G. and the NY PRESS were WRONG in jumping the gun by labeling the brick throwing SOB a "homeless" person. It turned out he was a career criminal, but was far from being homeless. He even came from a middle-class upbringing in the suburban town of Freeport.
Rudy should have apologized to the homeless AND the institutions that try to help the less fortunate (and of course are grossly underfunded).
Doug aka BMTman
That's right. Most homeless people aren't criminals. Like I told Eugenuis, if you don't bother them, they won't bother you. Most keep to themselves. They are basically harmless.
douglas bmt man you are right the welfare reciepents and homeless some who are forced to sleep on subway cars at the risk of being raped robbed and beaten by PERSONS WITH HOMES !!!
shurely RUDY G has something to
say about this right bmt man??
im sorry folks homelessness is not caused by REFUSAL TO WORK most of the time its REFUSAL TO HIRE!!
I dont do drugs smoke drink alchol smoke weed etc. AND I COULDNT GET OUT OF HOMELESSNESS 1985 1988 and was 100% powerless to work my way out of it !!!!!
but when you fire union paid subway workers and maint. etc...
AND REPLACE THEM WITH SHELTER FORCED WORKERS AND "" WORKFARE"" disabled welfare reciepents make them clean out subway cars forcing MTA NEW YORK SUBWAY EMPLOYEES into the UNEMPLOYMENT-WELFARE-FOOD STAMPS LINES..... RUDY!!! RUDY G. !!!!!!!!!!!!!
you see just l;ike the railfan window should dissapear all of you who insist these right wing
and liberatarian lunacy are 100%
uninformed at best and you need to get a new life !!!!
also ( on sub talk topic ) we all if we claim to be human oppose having to see persons sleeping on
subway cars risking robbery rape and even death and support the good social programs that put people into housing not subway
stations and subway cars etc...
THEN WE CAN ALL GET HAPPY AND RIDE THE RAILFAN
WINDOW thank you MR DAVE P.
for new york city subway resources!!
Most of those publicized homeless murders in Denver occurred in LoDo (Lower Downtown), the area where Denver was first founded. The closest light rail stop is several blocks away. The proposed Platte Valley Spur would serve LoDo as far as Union Station.
Only difference is I haven't seen any mass executions or concentration camps set up in NYC.
Many protesters have been implying he is acting like a fascist and a communist dictator. The idea itself is utterly ridiculous.
First of all, you CAN'T be both since they violently oppose eachother. Secondly, I don't recall him bringing up a proposal for a citywide genocidal program before the City Council.
Many of the people at these protests don't seem to realize that the 60's era is LONG gone. Getting arrested at a protest is not a status symbol and it does not mean anything anymore. I'm not sure if it even meant ANYTHING at THAT time. The year 2000 is here, it's time to stop living in the past.....
Oh, so I guess people should just let governments do whatever the hell they want -- and the public should be like little lambs for the slaughter -- or more appropriately act like a "newbee" in prison and bend over and take it from "Big Bubba" (the government).
The right to assemble and voice opinions -- even opposing the standing governmental policies -- is one of our most cherished rights. I for one may not LIKE every protest that occurs in the city, but I respect the RIGHT of those to use it to voice their gripes with those in power.
Doug aka BMTman
"As unreasonable as Rudy has been, as soon as the Dems regain control of City Hall, it'll be Dinkins II.
Crime will go back up, the homeless will prowl the streets, farebeating and graffiti will creep back in (graffiti already is) and, yes, the firecrackers will come back too."
You got that right
Steve--- Some of what is going on is typical of labor negotiations in the past. Threats and demands are part of labor negotiations. The mayor threatened to eliminate dues check-off or to apply the Taylor Law. Well these are legal recourses that the city has. The union or workers threaten a strike. This all gets the public riled up. Maybe to accept the terms of a contract because it's better than having a strike. I remember Mike Quill during the strike in 1966 and before that strike. As much as I loved his style of speaking and his committment to the union, there are those who believed that Mayor Robert Wagner managed Quill quite well during his years as mayor. Then John Lindsey came into office, saying that things were going to be different and the old power brokers would not be running things. So Mayor Lindsley got himself a strike that lasted quite a while. So what's the point?
Some of what is going on is not that unusual. The reports of someone trying to switch a train yesterday does not destroy the TWU's position. There are over 30,000 workers, and some of them feel very heated about the issues. Was it right to try to switch a train? Hell no, and if they catch the union member or MTA supervisor or homeless person or train buff who did it, that person should be severely punished.
The TWU has men and women who run and maintain the subway and bus system. They do a job, if they are lucky they love their work, and are able to let that love help them bear up with the realities of transporting the masses. I was with Doug last night, and for a bit there was a motorman waiting for a run to start who was talking with the people. He seemed like a decent man, who had a mortgage to pay, and a job to do. He wasn't making threats, he just seemed like another person who was trying to make it in this world. When all these labor negotiations are settled, we will go back to our regular lives. After watching Tuesdays with Morrie the other night, the question we need to ask ourselves is something to the effect : " Are we doing what we want with our lives?" "Are we happy with our lives?"
I was working for a member of my family for about 10 years, and it was really difficult. He lorded it over everyone who had contact with him. His labor relations motto was: "If you don't like it, there's the door and get the ---- out." And I stayed there, and watched my own sense of self get lowered. It reached a point about 6 years ago just as I was turning 50, that I felt that I was tired of just watching the days go by and feeling trapped. I started tutoring again, and I am in control of my own life. It was one of the healthiest moves I ever made in my life. Has my life been blissful ever since? No, but I am able to be the person that I am. That seems so so important. What's this got to do with the strike? Maybe nothing, and everything. Probably nothing, but I just felt like talking about myself....
(Feeling trapped)
That's another reason why I think my De-Unification Plan would work. You don't like where you are, get a job at one of the other transit companies. Riders AND workers would have a choice.
(Heypaul, check out that concept. Most posters thought it was so outlandish that you must be using my name, but I was mostly serious).
Thanks Larry ( aka heypaul ) for cluing me in on your ( my ) post about Deunification. I'm sorry I missed it when I first saw it. At times I'm troubled by your name--- there are too many l's and repeated r's and t's, which I find a little intimidating. I was especially intrigued with your using Ocean Avenue as a dividing line in Brooklyn. I'm wondering if you would occasionally post some of my more avant garde ideas under your name,for as Thurston pointed out, frequently I am not taken seriously on this board.
I think I would like to encourage you to expand deunification to its ultimate limits. Have each worker become an entrepreneur, similar to what I once read about in Brazil. I think bus operators there are paid directly from the fares they collect. Apparently that helped create rather aggressive bus driving. That would certainly eliminate the problem of bus bunching here. Letting each worker own his own bus or subway run would eliminate the need for a large bureaucracy to collect fares and engage in wage negotiations. There would always be plenty of people who would be looking to be self-employed. Perhaps the city could privatize the whole system by selling off runs as franchises to individuals. Better than owning a McDonalds or Kentucky Fried Chicken store.
Part of my unspoken plan for 1-1-2000 is being revealed. Not only have I planted seed pods to replicate the trains and trolleys and Mack Buses of yesteryear, but seedpods have been placed in the homes of several influential posters here on SubTalk. You will all be under my control soon, here only to serve my need for attention.
Some years ago the local bus line on Wash Ave in Hoboken was owner/operator--no service lunch or dinner hour and transfers-ha ha. What's more no late night service. All around low grade.
Seriously..... do you remember when that was?
Somewhere in the last 10-20 years , I was in Hoboken, and grabbed the Washington St. bus because it was a GM old look that was operated by a man very casually dressed. It almost seemed like it was his bus. This was way after the Old Looks were gone from the major lines. Could you tell more about that?
That's another reason why I think my De-Unification Plan would work. You don't like where you are, get a job at one of the other transit companies. Riders AND workers would have a choice.
You ever hear of the blacklist?
In all honesty, an end to the TWU wouldn't be a bad thing.
Seperate unions for each craft or job title is how it's done on the railroads, and something I have advocated for years here. It would better represent our interests as individuals rather than compromising our issues. How can one Local represent bus drivers, motormen, signal maintainers and token clerks? It's a sham to keep the union weak and perpetuate the crooked leadership's control.
I do agree with you. Especially coming from rapid transit while the TWU leadership for the last two decades(at least) has come from surface. Sonny Hall and Wiley James never had an interest in rapid transit people.
I hope it wasn't sabotage, after all, it could kill or injure one of their own: me and/or one of my brother/sister train operators/motormen, in addition to passengers and equipment damage.
If the tower lever was manipulated, and the facing point switch was reversed from track A1 to A3, how is that life threatening? So a T/O takes a wrong lineup at worse. I'd bet good money that RudeY made Mr Safir make that statement in the first place. Now if the same guy pulled the stunt in Colorado when the Amtrak's rails were replaced with copper cable, that is another story. Lets charge the MTA and it's executives with sabotage in the death of Layton Gibson. They deserve that much.
"Lets charge the MTA and it's executives with sabotage in the death of Layton Gibson."
Some guy's out of it and falls asleep at the controller or something that causes him not to notice there's a train ahead, and the TA is to blame? What's next?
In fairness, the truth is somewhere in between. Yes, the operator most likely fell asleep at the controls. But yes it's also true that if the signal/train interface worked properly, the train would have stopped before hitting the rear of the stopped train. Seems the TA has increased the speed of the trains without widening the zone of protection in the signal system.
(Falling asleep at the controls).
Sounds like another argument for ATO to me. On reason that I wouldn't feel qualified to be a T/O is the tendency for my mind to wander, and the need for constant concentration as a T/O. It's one hell of a challenge. Computers don't have that problem.
What wrong with the Mayor?? The Mayor have no right to treating the Union & the MTA. I am sick of tired hearin his bullshit & he think he the toughest mayor in new york city? I don't think he toughest & i think he the idiot, moron, jackass, & S.O.B. SO he should stay out of his business with MTA & let the MTA & Union take care. I need someone to tell him to SHUT UP & MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS MAYOR
Why not do it yourself? Why should certain "elected" individuals be responsible for you? You elected them so you put a drop in the bucket. 32000 NYCT personel might tell him personally on Wednesday what they think of him when they stand in front of City Hall instead of their trains and buses. Stand with them and tell RudeY that you will cast your vote for Hilary. Yech, what did I say?
I never vote for him for Rudy twice & i don't like his attidude or his idea.
So he is a pain in ass.
I must apologize for my previous message. After reading this one, I have come to the conclusion that you are putting us all on. No one could be this illiterate or ignorant!!!!!
>>>Stand with them and tell RudeY that you will cast your vote for Hilary. <<<
Please. Not that. I'll put up with a transit strike. Anything but Hillary.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I need someone to tell him to SHUT UP & MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS MAYOR
Yeah, I agree. The prospect of millions of New York residents being without transportation because of an illegal srike by a greedy municipal union is certainly none of the mayor's business. He should butt out and concentrate his energy on things that are truly important to the city.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Perhaps, if you don't want to be civil, you could, at least study english as a second language. Fight illiteracy on line - stay off.
Let's see. A public union is possibly going to conduct illegal strike (per state law) that could do a coniderable amount of economic and social harm to the greater well-being of a City of some 7.5 million souls and the Mayor is not supposed to take a stand on this?
I agree with Hizzhonor in some respect, like it or not he's the first person who will have to deal with the whole mess directly if a strike happens. To not take a stand would be idiotic. Both sides of negotiators will be safe and sound in their suburban homes up in Westechester and out in Long Island by the time D-Day (AM rush on 12/16) happens.
If that does happen I hope the Mayor will be out and about on streets and greeting people at the Brooklyn Bridge like Ed Koch did back in 1980s. If anything the Mayor could use a few pointers from Ed on how the handle the whole thing.
OTOH what makes me nauseous is the possibilty that Hillary will be getting chummy with the strikers if it happens in order to find a fradulent "common cause" with working folks. Then again what do expect from a garden-variety "limo liberal" who IMHO never had hard day's work in her life? Of course nobody want's to put on glasses and see the big picture in this day and age.
The funny thing about Rudy is that Willie James only two years ago pledged the TWU vote to him. Not the standard union Democratic vote. While I agree that the mayor has a right to protect the city even thought the MTA is a state agency, it it forgotten that in Rudy's first term, he had the MTA management on his hit list along with the public schools and One Police Plaza. Pataki made him back off his threat to cut the fat after he wrestled control of the Transit Police, the school bus and train passes and the $112 million a year in city funding to the NYCTA. The MTA, according to the AAA Motorist a few years back claimed that out of the 3 dollor toll paid at bridges and tunnels, two went to flush the underground toilet. The taxpayers and voters of New York don't complain about a mayor who spends millions in legal fees every month for court cases such as the Virgin Mary and Pornography Stores. But they will about a skilled worker who wants a little more than the TA is offering. But where has Guiliani been for an organization that has almost as many overpaid managers as there are subway cars? Where has the Straphanger's Association been hiding and why can't they seem to muster up any public support? If there are 5200+ managers running the TA, I would asume that the TA will have to have a good reason to keep them all. So by humiliating the common enemy of all, the goldbricking union men and women with write ups on the job and in the press make them look like supervision with a purpose. C'mon, there are times when I can't spell a particular word but for a rag like the Post or Daily News to say that our Train Operators are functionally illiterate and only 33 passed a promotional exam is common because of our employers desire to keep their hundred grand payscales intact. When was the last time you read about a train operator making $90,000 a year. The TA will respond that they will overcome the problem or the typical "no comment". They never say the employee was loyal or dedicated or alway available. Which you would have to be to get that kind of money nowadays. Stop believing our union leader as he came from the buses and he doesn't speak of RTO. I'd be happy walking away from this with 10 to 15% over three years with none of the givebacks designed to set me up for a divorce. I am now able to pick a nice job with Saturday and Sunday off to watch my eight year old daughter grow up after pounding the rails for twelve years at the front of a train. I take as much pride in my job whether it is by myself or with a student T/O; whether it was an R10, a diesel or an R68. I realize that I will never have any public sympathy on my side so I stop asking for it. The NYCTA is a losing battle and perhaps oneday when my resumes are called upon, I might be operating an M1 but until then, the press is not on our side as long as the MTA and the Mayor team up against us hiding behind a Taylor Law which is a shield for the MTA to bargain in BAD FAITH.
[he think he the toughest mayor in new york city]
Guess what, moron, he's the *only* mayor in NYC! Duuuuh.
Peter, I think that this guy has to be putting us on. No one can be as stupid as he's pretending to be and still boot up a computer.
I don't know about that ... he fits the profile of some of our computer help desk "professionals" :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You don't happen to work for the MTA by some chance, do you? :-)
No, I don't - I work for one of the largest corporations in the US.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peter, I think that this guy has to be putting us on. No one can be as stupid as he's pretending to be and still boot up a computer.
What kind of intelligence does it take to boot up a computer? You turn the power switch on. Once that's done you point to the e on your desktop. Once IE loads, it dials up using the user ID and password already stored. A chimp can do that. Somebody undoubtedly helped him sign up with his ISP and configured his modem and all the dial-up information.
No, our mayor loathing friend is an AOL member, all it takes is the ability to read a credit card number to sign up for that.
In that case, you hit the green (or is it blue now?) triangle on screen.
No, our mayor loathing friend is an AOL member, all it takes is the ability to read a credit card number to sign up for that.
In that case, you hit the green (or is it blue now?) triangle on screen.
A chimp can do that too.
Rudy has the right idea regarding the impending illegal strike. It will cost the city millions every day...and the last I saw if you take an illegal action that damages someone, you can be held fiscally liable for it.
In the event of a strike, the city should sue the union for every last cent it has. Maybe losing a ton of money will teach the union leadership and membership SOME modicum of respect for the law....the law which they knew existed when they took their jobs. If they wanted the right to strike for redress...they never should have taken TA jobs where they knew it would be illegal.
Maybe we should strike anyway, even if the TWU does negotiate a contract. The Taylor Law is discrimination. Pure and simple. If the LIRR or Amtrak can use a strike as a form of free speech and we can't, maybe the Supreme Court will overrule the Taylor Law. So let them bankrupt the union. In the meantime perhaps the BLE, UTU or other willing parties who are willing to fight for their members will take on a very hard but not impossible task of tarnishing RudeY's image personally for his Senate run. Willie James will get his. We will get ours. And RudeY will get his.
Willie James will get his. We will get ours. And RudeY will get his.
Gee, and who says most labor unions are dominated by greedy thugs who bully and extort their way into getting whatever they want? Amazing how such stereotypes persist.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
LOL. Maybe humor is a better way to make my case than anger.
OK, since you love the law so much, explain to me how part 14 sections 200 through 212 of the laws of the state of New York aren't constitutional? It's available on line. Read it for your self.
If memory serves, the first amendment to the United States constitution states that Congress (and therefore no other body) shall make no law infringing upon the people's right of free speech and expession.
A strike is the LAWFUL expression of outrage at mistreatment by our employer. Unfortunately our crooked union has never bothered to challenge this UNLAWFUL law in court.
Be angry all you want Barry. I'm still staying home. The longer the strike lasts, the more likely that the union will be sccseful in it's demand that the law be waived before our return to work.
(The longer the strike lasts, the more successful)
If the strike lasts long enough, it would be fiscally irresponsbile to settle it, because the result will be a recession, the loss of tens of thousands of jobs, and the loss of millions in state and local tax revenues. The whole premise -- that the TA could afford bigger raises -- would disappear.
Or maybe they'll be fined for contempt of court... Just ask the American Airlines pilots union about illegal strikes.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I don't know if suing the union will get him anywhere. The mayor has lost most court cases he has brought, since much of the NYC judiciary is ideologically opposed to him, but it's worth a shot.
It's not that NY Judges are ideologically opposed to Rudy G., its' that most of his court cases have been frivolous at best and first amendment violators at worst.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the Civil Service unions should band together and lobby to get the Taylor law repealed, or at least heavily weakened. I'm not familiar with all the details of the new york version. But my parents worked for the Federal government for years and the federal version has been used to turn the screws on employees at the federal level for years. Clearly the MTA is using it the same way. These laws are hopelessly lopsided. How about for every day the union works without a contract they receive double pay? Nobody would ever support that, but it's really no diffrent than losing two days pay for every day of strike.
If there is a strike it will really mess things up for me, but I'll hold the MTA - and not the union - at fault till the very end.
I've upgraded the main www.nycsubway.org server tonight (hardware, OS, apache version).
If anyone notes any weirdness please let me know via email or feedback form (I tested it, that should work).
If there aren't any problems in a few days the SubTalk portion of the site will migrate back to www.nycsubway.org.
-Dave
I've upgraded the main www.nycsubway.org server tonight (hardware, OS, apache version).
If anyone notes any weirdness please let me know via email or feedback form (I tested it, that should work).
If there aren't any problems in a few days the SubTalk portion of the site will migrate back to www.nycsubway.org.
-Dave
Thank you, Dave.
Wow, does it ever show!
www.nycsubway.org was getting like a good horsecar: attracrive, amiable and slow.
Now it's more like an Electroliner.
Suggesrion to SubTalkers: hit the new server a lot today, so we can report whatever to Dave.
Wow, that is quick.
I know this has been stated a lot, but I think it is worth repeating right now:
THANK YOU, DAVE! We all appreciate the devotion and time you have put into this website. I know from personal eperience that setting up and maintaining a web server can be a pain in the rear, so thank you so much for your work with nycsubway.org.
I visit this website daily, and I am always browsing the information on your server. I live in Memphis, Tenn, with NO subways of any kind, which is kinda hard for a subway buff such as myself. Thanks for such a great site because it is a constant joy for me to visit.
I really, really appreciate the work you've done.
Thanks,
Brandon Bostian
12/12/99
Dave,
When I log on to nycsubway.org, The features Subtalk and Bustalk were originally on the first page, but moved to the second page afterwards.
Now I can't find SubTalk and Bustalk at all without going through the various pages and scrolling down. So I go to TRANSER STATION and scroll down to the bottom of the page and then click on SubTalk.
Could this be a problem with my server? (Altavista)
> The features Subtalk and Bustalk were originally on the first page,
> but moved to the second page afterwards.
Huh? there are still bustalk and subtalk links on the main page (http://www.nycsubway.org/index.html). They're on the same line as "Upcoming Events - Subway Faq - SubTalk - BusTalk - What's New".
-Dave
Bill
The fastest way to subtalk is to set a bookmark or add it to your favorites list. ( or just make it your start up page)
After you catch up on the news use the link to go to NYCsubway
Joe
The fastest way to subtalk is to set a bookmark or add it to your favorites list. ( or just make it your start up page)
After you catch up on the news use the link to go to NYCsubway
I did one better. SubTalk is the first selection on my IE link bar. I use a personalized Excite page as my start page. When I'm through reading the news and weather, I click on the SubTalk link.
I noticed that the new server is faster - however, in order for the server to recall my handle, I had to post this message. Anyone know of some other way to do this?
subfan
Read the top of the index - Dave clearly explained that's what you need to do.
Now that you've posted once, it's not an issue for you.
This happens for a good reason. The technology that remembers who you are on SubTalk (cookies) has built-in security. It is a very intentional feature of the way the technology works. It prevents things like Amazon.com finding out what you're selling on Ebay, or Yahoo! getting your email address from your SubTalk cookie.
Dave explained how to reset viewing preferences; not how to have the server remember my subtalk "name".
subfan
> Dave explained how to reset viewing preferences; not how to have the
> server remember my subtalk "name".
No, actually I explained both. Unfortunately I just deleted it from the MOTD but it said that your identity would be retained after you made your first post and that there was no reason to make a "test" post. But that's okay I know no one actually reads those "Please Read" type things anyway.
-Dave
Sorry, Dave - I actually did read your "please read" post, but must have just misunderstood it. In any case, I tried to make my initial post somewhat relevent - commenting on the faster speed, asking if there was some way to avoid having to post to have personalized information remembered - rather than just posting a blank "test" post. By the way, what do you meen by "MOTD"? I don't think I've ever heard that acronym before.
subfan
> "MOTD"
"Message Of The Day". An "old" unix systems term.
-Dave
BTW - I shall get my 2¢ in re. the upgrade. Very good on all counts. Much faster. I also upgraded my personal browser from Netscape Navigator 3.0 (outdated) to Netscape Communicator 4.7 and gone are all those annoying page faults.
Wayne
If you think about it there is no need for it to recall your handle unless you were posting.
true, but it is nice to be greeted by name when I log on.
subfan
I know this has been stated a lot, but I think it is worth repeating right now:
THANK YOU, DAVE! We all appreciate the devotion and time you have put into this website. I know from personal eperience that setting up and maintaining a web server can be a pain in the rear, so thank you so much for your work with nycsubway.org.
I visit this website daily, and I am always browsing the information on your server. I live in Memphis, Tenn, with NO subways of any kind, which is kinda hard for a subway buff such as myself. Thanks for such a great site because it is a constant joy for me to visit.
I really, really appreciate the work you've done.
My sentiments exactly. Having left the City 19 years ago, I rely on nycsubway.org, not only to reminisce, but to keep up with current transit events.
Thanks, Dave for providing nycsubway.org, and thanks for the server upgrade. So far, things are moving very fast on the site with no problems. I won't be able to judge how things are with the new server accurately, until we go through an entire 7-day cycle. In other words, the site hasn't been given the true acid test yet. My preliminary assessment is - a vast improvement.
No problems here. It actually seems to be responding faster. Thanks for the upgrade.
At about 4p.m. today a c/r was slashed at 191st NB. Apparently as the train was leaving the station someone leaned out from behind a column and sliced the c/r's hand open. At Dyckman control finally answered the radio call (after 7 to 8 minutes) and told the crew to discharge the train and proceed directly to 242. Of course the passengers cursed them out even though one of them was injured and bleeding. Upon arrival at 242 the crew was called to the TD's office AND THEN EMS WAS CALLED. I don't know the rest since I had a trip to make but I'm glad to know it only takes control 7 min. to answer a call from an injured employee and that they can't be bothered to call and have medical personel at the terminal to help said employee.
Maybe now all of you non TA workers will understand what some of our gripes are about. And don't give me maybe EMS was enroute because ther are two firehouses and one police station not more then 10 blocks fro the terminal and all have medical personel on duty.
All Transit Workers know damn well that this item will be buried in the newspapers, if it is even printed at all. The so called "strike" is more important to the selling of newspapers & local TV news ratings. Yes, conductors must keep their heads out the window & observe the platform for 3 car lengths as the train leaves. This rule is an unsafe one. Lots of conductors have gotten injured as they were following this procedeure, while others have had near misses of injuries, while still others have had slight injuries which go unreported so they won't have to be grilled & intimidated by the TA medical staff, Control Center & the line sup't who, by the way, comes out smelling like a rose if his people stay injury free. Another thing the public doesn't care about. Injured employee? Big deal, just put somebody else on the train. Now the injured employee gets the run around from the State Workmans Compensation Board & the TA! Heaven on Earth!
The train should have been stopped at the next station and the conductor given immediate attention from EMS. If control is so slow with responding to emergencies, maybe the train crew is better calling EMS themselves!
Your right about that, because they would've given a passenger immediate medical treatment.
Unfortunately, I still feel striking will hurt the workers (the TA workers) because media will focus on the stranding of the people of NYC. I fault the media, because they wait will a week before the Dec.15 deadline to really notice the story. Perhaps if they'd been following both sides, they should've made it clear that MTA management treats it's workers and passengers like garbage, and get the public involved in getting a new contract for TA workers.
Now, because of the ignorance of media, the TA workers have few choices. Striking though, will only hurt themselves, and the people of
NYC. I wish the TWU would instead of threatening strike, protest in major areas of Manhattan, and on the internet, as well as media, and get the people's attention on what is happening in the corrupt system.
There is speech that cannot be stopped by the Taylor law, and that speed must come forth, instead of sacrificing two days pay (or more) and stranding NYC.
Again, I refer you to my previous post of 12/11/99 @23:47 PM. #74762.
WHAT! Those NO GOOD BASTARDS! That was a good 16 Miutes lost. If I was the Motorman on that train I would have Discharged that train Immediatly with my shoe paddle. Then I would have moved the train to 215 Street and Stayed there intil EMS Showed up Stince the Hospital is right there. Im am sick and tied of every time a Transit Worker is is Injured all they can about is Keeping the Road Moving. I can care less about how many trains are backed up all I care about is helping my Conductor.
As for the Radio. Control was very silent. The only thing I heard was a Train Operator checking on a Report of someone riding in between the cars a Dyckman St and Control cared more about the Dum Person on the Roadbed North of 145 Street on the Broadway line.
HMMM...and doesn't Control Center, every half hour when they remind us what time it is, tell us that "Your safety is important to us...." HMMM
Yeah What joke right ?
Yeah What joke a right ?
Yes; "report all threatening behavior to the Control Center immeadiately" What crap.
WHAT! Those NO GOOD BASTARDS! That was a good 16 Miutes lost. If I was the Motorman on that train I would have Discharged that train Immediatly with my shoe paddle. Then I would have moved the train to 215 Street and Stayed there intil EMS Showed up Stince the Hospital is right there. Im am sick and tied of every time a Transit Worker is is Injured all they can about is Keeping the Road Moving. I can care less about how many trains are backed up all I care about is helping my Conductor.
As for the Radio. Control was very silent. The only thing I heard was a Train Operator checking on a Report of someone riding in between the cars a Dyckman St and Control cared more about the Dum Person on the Roadbed North of 145 Street on the Broadway line.
It seems that the only way to get quick action from Control when an employee gets injured, or should I say "wounded in action" (the subway seems sometimes like a battlefield) is to stop the train with its passengers (I refuse to use the TA's terminology of "customers") between stations and tell Contol that "We aren't moving until you get EMS for my wounded buddy!". When someone is bleeding, it shouldn't matter whether the person is a transit employee or a passenger. A human life is a human life. As for the consequences of being disciplined, the incident and the consequence would make a good news story for the media. Fact is, its about time the general public knew the way the TA management treats its staff. Until I started reading the posts from TA employees regarding this issue on SubTalk, I used to think transit employees had it made. Good job, good pay, good benefits, job security, a strong union backing to prevent any abuses. Man, was I wrong!
I worked with a wonderful conductor around 1990. His name was Stewart Abramowitz and he was shot while operating a B train in Manhattan. He was known for being kind hearted and loving his fellow workers and passengers. A week to the day of the incident, his compensation was denied in part because he shouldn't have tried to protect a passenger in his cab from a gun toting thug during a domestic dispute. A year to the day of the incident, the NYCTA fired him because he was off the job 365 days. We are human beings and should be treated respectfully, even when we are protested. Slashing conductors as in a prior post today will not get us back to work, it will prevent one conductor from working if a strike is called off. If the TA writes up the conductor for a violation resulting in his/her compensation denial, he will use his/her medical benefits which may come in part from the NYCTA operational budget. It costs you more money if we are able to come in but don't. It still costs you money if we can't. BTW, it took us a month of bickering with the TA to get a memorial for Mr. Abramowitz in place. They didn't even want to put his name on a plaque at Jay Street memorizing the workers lost at sea. We are all just a pass number to those in higher authority.
I worked with a wonderful conductor around 1990. His name was Stewart Abramowitz and he was shot while operating a B train in Manhattan. He was known for being kind hearted and loving his fellow workers and passengers. A week to the day of the incident, his compensation was denied in part because he shouldn't have tried to protect a passenger in his cab from a gun toting thug during a domestic dispute. A year to the day of the incident, the NYCTA fired him because he was off the job 365 days. We are human beings and should be treated respectfully, even when we are protested. Slashing conductors as in a prior post today will not get us back to work, it will prevent one conductor from working if a strike is called off. If the TA writes up the conductor for a violation resulting in his/her compensation denial, he will use his/her medical benefits which may come in part from the NYCTA operational budget. It costs you more money if we are able to come in but don't. It still costs you money if we can't. BTW, it took us a month of bickering with the TA to get a memorial for Mr. Abramowitz in place. They didn't even want to put his name on a plaque at Jay Street memorizing the workers lost at sea. We are all just a pass number to those in higher authority.
All of the horror stories I'm reading here about the TA's insensitivity and downright harsh, inhuman treatment of its employees makes me sick!
Anyway, what happened to Stewart Abramowitz? Did he survive the shooting, or did he die? You mentioned that his compensation was denied, and also about a memorial plaque. the compensation issue tells me he survived. The memorial plaque tells me he didn't survive.
I beleive he was buried in Canarsie. I was denied a day off from work to go to the funeral. His memorial is still in the crew room at Coney Island, Stillwell Terminal.
I beleive he was buried in Canarsie. I was denied a day off from work to go to the funeral. His memorial is still in the crew room at Coney Island, Stillwell Terminal.
Thanks for the info. I'm sorry to hear that.
Hey, how about a class action law suit aganist the T.A.?
Hey, how about a class action law suit aganist the T.A.?
The MTA is responsible for providing transit service in New York City. If they fail to do so, I believe that a class action lawsuit can be filed against them for damages. A strike is not an "Act of God". It could be avoided.
God!
Thank you SIR! Someone at last finally GETS IT!
I am not too familiar with the rules. But what would've happened if the conductor had taken action himself. What if he allowed the train to continue to the next station, and then hold it there? After the train stopped and he opened the doors, he could remove his key from the master door controller and walk off the train, right? Then, he could press the alarm in the ticket booth for EMS.
Could he argue that his injury was a safety issue on the train (he wouldn't be able to concentrate on work due to pain) and that it was his duty to pull it out of service?
Just wondering,
Brandon
He should have. I would have. I tell all my fellow conductors; if you need help, DON'T tell control. Call 911! Then call control.
When going uptown, I always aviod taking the #1 (riding the A/C instead). It's just too dangerous.
One day on the way to my lawyer's office I decided to ride the #1. At around 96th Street, a group of kids came on the train. Not really paying attention, one of those kids purposely dropped his note book on my lap. My reaction was not verbal but more of a negative body jesture. He then told me, "who are you looking at." Response: why did you drop your book on my lap? His response was, "I wanted too." As I was going to swing at him (knocking his lights out!), one of his two friends grabbed me putting me in a choke hold. I managed to free myself and immediately left the train.
That was two years ago, never running the #1 above 96th Street.
N Broadway Local
How dare you even think of hitting that poor misunderstood young man? Hillary would never forgive you. Don't you realize that it's of for those "scholars" to drop their notebooks on you, and to give you as much guff as they want? You don't want to inhibite those fine y oung men--now do you? I just wanted to sound like a Hillary liberal and see how it felt. Pardon me while I head for the john to throw up.
"How dare you even think of hitting that poor misunderstood young man? Hillary would never forgive you. Don't you realize that it's of for those "scholars" to drop
their notebooks on you, and to give you as much guff as they want? You don't want to inhibite those fine y oung men--now do you? I just wanted to sound like a
Hillary liberal and see how it felt. Pardon me while I head for the john to throw up."
Poorly misunderstood you men????????
What about me? This young man attacked me for no reason!!!!!! Then, to make matters worse! he got his friends involved!!! Thank god I used my head and exit the train when I could.
Just picture yourself in that situation. What would you have done? Sit there and be humiliated?!
I wasn't going to let another man (young or otherwise) make me look like a fruitcake.
Moreover, if it happened again, I will just walk away; knowing that he (the person attacking me) together with friends will have the advantaged.
Because of my size (250/6'3 age 27) and ability to think quickly in bad situations, I managed to leave without being harm. If he was by himself, he would have never did what he did. But, just because his friends was on the train with him, he felt he needed to score some points with his friends.
N Broadway Local.
OK, next time read IN DETAIL. Maybe then you would be able to detect the obvious sarcasm.
Thanks Eugenius D. Train. I thought my note was very obvious, but I believe he's still mad about what had happened to him. Sometimes it takes a long while to get over one's anger at an incident that rankles you. I certainly side with him and not those smart asses.
N Broadway Local: I wished you would have decked some of those punks you talked about. Funny thing is, I never had an incident on a subway any of the three times I visited New York. In fact, everyone was downright friendly. I was very lucky I guess, because I'm only 5:9, 170 pounds. But I can look mean. Maybe that's it. Have a great day.
N Broadway Local: I wished you would have decked some of those punks you talked about. Funny thing is, I never had an incident on a subway any of the three times I visited New York. In fact, everyone was downright friendly. I was very lucky I guess, because I'm only 5:9, 170 pounds. But I can look mean. Maybe that's it. Have a great day.
No, its your limited exposure to the subway. If you still lived in the City and rode the subway regularly, your chances of being the victim of a crime incident would increase greatly.
I have been a regular subway rider for over 27 years (including high school) and luckily I have never been a victim of crime. I used to ride at all hours about 20 years ago, but I don't do that any more. I belive that the majority of riders are never crime victims. It's the one's who are that make everyone else paranoid. One person in two years is pushed off the platform. Considering how many riders there are every day, the odds of it happening are less than two billion to one!. I am curious of how many subtalkers have been crime victims and how many haven't.
I have been a regular subway rider for over 27 years (including high school) and luckily I have never been a victim of crime. I used to ride at all hours about 20 years ago, but I don't do that any more. I belive that the majority of riders are never crime victims. It's the one's who are that make everyone else paranoid. One person in two years is pushed off the platform. Considering how many riders there are every day, the odds of it happening are less than two billion to one!. I am curious of how many subtalkers have been crime victims and how many haven't.
I was hit up for chump change on the Canarsie Line in 1973 by someone with a knife. Back in 1970, a street gang walked through the #1 train I was on, smashing all the door windows with their fists. They didn't harm or rob anyone, just vandalism. The train was taken out of service at Dyckman St. and I had to wait for the next one on a freezing January day. BTW, I wasn't going anywhere. I was just railfanning-joyriding.
Just out of curiosity, how big was the lowlife who attacked you?
5' 9 140 pounds. And two of his friends appeared to be about the same size/height. Anyway, like I said before, he along was no match for me. And besides, I managed to free myself from a choke hold of which two of his friends had me in.
It was more of a prank than a fight. But, still, I was affected greatly by it.
N Broadway Line
Prank or no prank, that sort of incident will affect anyone who is on the receiving end.
There's one word to describe people like that: cowards. I'll bet there's no way someone that size would have hassled you had he been alone.
Dont you think you guys are overreacting?
First off, you don't know how bad his hand was slashed.
Would it really be worth it to back up the busiest line in the system so he can run and get a band aid or two??
Second Off, Of course people cursed him out. The service on that line is crappy enough as it is.
Third off, you union guys gotta relax. You guys have it made. Just ask anyone living paycheck to paycheck in NYC. You guys have the best wages and benifits, and all you ever do is complain about how you want more. If anyone else in NYC was to act as childish as you guys do, they would be immediatley fired!
Let the extra money go towards a better system, not towards you guys wanting more medical coverage, or sick days, or comp this, or 401k that. You guys have it good enough as it is!
Out of curiousity, why are you masking your true identity as NYCTA@mta.nyc.ny.us? Are you trying to hide your true identity? If YOU don't know how bad the conductor was injured, then you should keep your comments to your self. Base your opinion on legitimate issues such as the Taylor Law or the MTA's performance in general, not based on a report that might do you more damage in your argument. If your house was burning down, how would you feel if the Fire Department was on lunch and said to you, that don't look bad, we will return later. Don't you ever assume that because a person is hurt that he only needs a banddaid. You are a coldhearted jerk who I will think of when I stand out on a picket line. I never put my schedule in front of a report of a sick or injured passenger because I treat anyone as if they were my family. Next time post your address being you have the balls to knock one who is down.
Out of curiousity, why are you masking your true identity as NYCTA@mta.nyc.ny.us? Are you trying to hide your true identity? If YOU don't know how bad the conductor was injured, then you should keep your comments to your self. Base your opinion on legitimate issues such as the Taylor Law or the MTA's performance in general, not based on a report that might do you more damage in your argument. If your house was burning down, how would you feel if the Fire Department was on lunch and said to you, that don't look bad, we will return later. Don't you ever assume that because a person is hurt that he only needs a banddaid. You are a coldhearted jerk who I will think of when I stand out on a picket line. I never put my schedule in front of a report of a sick or injured passenger because I treat anyone as if they were my family. Next time post your address being you have the balls to knock one who is down.
This idiot, "TA Supporter" has no brains and knows nothing about labor issues. In an office that I used to work in, you would have to fill out an "Incident Report" for even a paper cut, if it drew blood. Anything, like slipping and falling, even though you felt OK afterwards, you were expected to go to the doctor to check it out. Too strict and stringent, some might think? Not really. Any kind of accident at the workplace could very well turn out to be a Workers' Comp claim. BTW, I would think that the conductor who had his hand slashed most likely needed an emergency room visit. When I sliced a 1/4" long and 1/4" deep cut into my thumb, I went to emergency. All they did was dress it, no stitch, but infection can result in deep cuts like this. They did give me a tetanus shot. BTW, it was at home. No W/C. Did it ever occur to "TA Supporter" that the conductor may have needed a tetanus shot? He might have needed stitches also.
The TA supporter has talked from both sides of the mouth. The service is lousy on the #1 line but questions the conductor who should not run for a bandaid? I think to satsify both parties, the "supporter" should join a neighborhood watch group at the 191 Street station to ensure that the train continues on. If the train doesn't show at all, he can write to Pataki or Guiliani and demand better service. But just like "C.R.", if you are not familiar with the problem, you can only guess the solution.
The sad part is that this Conductor may be just beginning a medical nightmare. I really do wonder what he was slashed with. In todays world too many diseases can be transmitted through unsanitary means and a tetnus shot will not cure or even help it. I am praying for my brother or sister that they will be well and be able to finish their career.
The sad part is that this Conductor may be just beginning a medical nightmare. I really do wonder what he was slashed with. In todays world too many diseases can be transmitted through unsanitary means and a tetnus shot will not cure or even help it.
That's a good point. He could have been cut with something that had AIDS infected blood on it. You know that there are sick puppies that have AIDS that want to infect other people. Hopefully not. Hopefully it was just a knife that wasn't infected.
The sad part is that this Conductor may be just beginning a medical nightmare. I really do wonder what he was slashed with. In todays world too many diseases can be transmitted through unsanitary means and a tetnus shot will not cure or even help it. I am praying for my brother or sister that they will be well and be able to finish their career.
Seconded.
I think I'll take this opportunity to mention to anyone who may be interested that the chain-link gloves often used by workers in fish, meat and food plants to protect against accidental knife cuts may be useful to any C/R or other frontline worker who wishes to protect himself, or herself, from the animals of New York City.
CH.
My other car isn't a Rolls or Lexus in fact I don't own a car and I'm A MOTORMAN and I too live paycheck to paycheck. IF YOU WANT A piece of the pie take a test and join us if you feel we make so much money, things always look better on the other side of the glass. If you were injured at work wouldn't you want immediate attention to your injury regardless of the delay/inconvenience to others? give me a break.. the other day a sick customer aboard my train was pregnant passenger who felt faint and knocked her head against the car wall. EVEN with the Announcements made by the CONDUCTOR and I, I'm amazed at the stupid remarks made by other riders.
So you want to know how bad his hands were cut? How is fully across both palms. I am sure you would be first in line to volunteer for the demonstration, as I wield a razor at your face and only slice your hands open making them useless until they heal.
We have the worst benefits of any civil service job and that is a fact. I am in the middle of getting dental work done so far the bill is $3225.00 and all I have to pay is $2500.00. Great benefit. OH yeah I forgot we can retire at age 55 and lose our dental,prescription and optical benefits until we are 62 and Medicare kicks in.
To me it seems pretty clear that a strike is going to happen so I was wondering about what nycsubway.org should do. I came to the conclusion that to support the TWU workers nycsubway.org should also go on "strike". This would entail first turning the little Subway thumb-nails at the top of the page into different kinds of strike signs. The Grand Central and Around the World sections would be uneffected, but an "On Strike" .jpg could be posted on the Grand Central page and it would be up to the viewer weither to cross the picket line or not. The NYC Subway Line by Line should be taken down and replaced with a a section labeled NYC Subway Strike by Strike ehich would contail a recount of all the past strikes and examples of different strike sinage. The How it Works section should describe how the system "works" during a strike, ie how the managers try and how the workers don't. It could go into detail about strike breakers and how picket lines are set up and the do's and don'ts of collective bargining. The Subway FAQ should be turned into a Strike FAQ that answers shuch questions like "What is a Scab and how can I spot one?" and "Who runs the MTA and where can I send letterbombs?"
In all seriousness I really do believe that if the workers strike, so should NYCSubway.org, even if it just means putting some .jpg's on the main page. It would be cool to read a special strike edition of NYCSubway.org, but I doubt the admin has time. However, even if the main page in on strike, I believe that the MB's should stay open because you need the lines of communication open in a strike. Furthermore I think that the Site Admin sould get one (or more) of those free Java chat rooms (like the one's XOOM offers) and make it available to Subtalkers (some of which I'm guessing will have a lot of time on their hands) during the strike. This way they might be able to discuss their views in a way a message board is not equipped to handle. Maybe Subtalkers could even get together someplace during the strike and have a ralley or something.
If anybody wants some "On Strike" .jpg's for their web page I have pleanty of time this week and just tell me what you want and I'll whip it up for you.
Nycsubway.org should NOT go on strike also. The operation of this site has nothing to do with the strike. The employees, the TA and the union will not be affected in the least if this site is "on strike". Besides, this is all the "subway" that any New Yorker is going to get with the real thing on strike. One thing I think should be on the site for the duration of the strike is a "Strike Page" with a link from the splash page, speaking the strike views of nycsubway.org.
I don't know how hard this would be, but maybe we should chip in to help Dave put up a strike talk section (although that might leave subtalk will not much to talk about).
Subtalk should not go on strike. There will be lots of people with nothing better to do than surf the net in the event of a strike.
I don't know how hard this would be, but maybe we should chip in to help Dave put up a strike talk section (although that might leave subtalk will not much to talk about).
If a separate "StrikeTalk" board was created, I also think there would be more posts on that, than on Subtalk. But, by the time the strike was over, a StrikeTalk BB would be a ghost town that would need to be removed. The thing is, it wouldn't be too difficult to create and remove. BTW, there are web services that provide free BBS's on their servers for whatever you want a BB about. All you have to do is fill out the forms on the Web for a BB and then provide the link to it from your site. The catch is that you have to put up with their advertising. Hey, after all, its on their server anyway.
Subtalk should not go on strike. There will be lots of people with nothing better to do than surf the net in the event of a strike.
Also, railfan addicts can get their fix on nycsubway.org while they are unable to ride the real thing.
> Furthermore I think that the Site Admin sould get one (or more) of
> those free Java chat rooms (like the one's XOOM offers) and make it
> available to Subtalkers
The rest of your suggestions are ridiculuous but if you think this is a good idea, WHY DON'T YOU DO IT? These type of things are generally free. Perhaps you could contribute to the community and set one up. Of course it's easier to suggest someone else (i.e. me) do it so I doubt it'll happen. I will post my opinion on this: Java chat sucks. Java sucks. You'll never see it on my site.
We're not going on strike and we're not posting any "views". You all should know by now that this site is completely divested from anything official.
-Dave
Ok, it was just a sugestion. A transit strike doen't come around every decade and I was just thinking that NYCSUBWAY.ORG should at least do something special to take note of the fact that the trains aren't running. I didn't say the site should actually strike, but it should "strike" by putting up a new section or new pics. Part of the reason for NycSubway.org is to give non-NYC residents a feeling for what the subway is like because they otherwise can't experiance it. Well I was just thinking that given the strike, NYCSubway.org should also help outsiders learn what a NYC transit strike is really like. Maybe some history or pics or first hand accounts etc. I thought you could use the Strike to add some excitement to the page, but I'm just some guy from Jersey so what do I know.
I got a great idea for a time capsule. Take pictures of redbirds with dust on them and rusted rails on mainline structures as a memory. The daily news had one good reminder of the 1980 strike which I have saved in my attic. A black and white pic of an R21 layed up at 242 Street taken from behind the closed off Perey turnstyle. The police sure looked sharp in their old uniforms.
> Well I was just thinking that given the strike, NYCSubway.org should
> also help outsiders learn what a NYC transit strike is really like.
> Maybe some history or pics or first hand accounts etc.
If you're volunteering talk to me in email. If not, it ain't gonna happen.
-Dave
Mike, let's compromise. If the NYCT does strike let's refuse to talk about it and instead only talk about NJT. Pulleeeeze
A strike will be serious and painful experience for all New Yorkers. What should we at SubTalk do to ease the burden? I say: Have a retrospective of my postings from the last three months. I would be happy to provide commentary as to the state of my mind when I wrote each one. A little humor will ease the burdens of a tired populace.
Why don't you write up an article entitled "The History of NYC Transit Subway Strikes and Their Effects on the City" or something like that? It would be timely material given its timing, I;m sure ....
--Mark
Does the LIRR/NJT/Metro North plan extra service in the event of a strike, or are Penn, GCT and Jamaica at capacity already?
Would the LIRR union (I forget its name) slow down service in sympathy with the TWU?
I think everyone here on Subtalk should listen to Eric, The Subway Professional. In this morass of misinformation, he may be closest to the truth. The fact is that money is only a small part of the equation. Let's face facts. The news media reported a surplus in varying amounts that circled the $186 million figure. We all know that was on paper, based on projections. What about the megga-bucks to rebuild Bergen Tower. That was not factored in. Nor were the millions of dollars in projected savings from overhauls and productivity that never materialized. I'm quite sure thta the pie that everyone is so happily waiting for a slice of, is much smaller than originally expected.
What are the issues that really matter. Well, that depends on the department and/or division where you work. For RTO it seems to be resoect and unfair discipline. In DCE it may be the WEPS. In Station Dept. it may be MetroCard issues and WEPS. Etc, Ect, Etc.
The point is that many inflamatory posts have appeared here by people who do not understand the issues but stand ready, in their ignorance, to force a settlement down the throats of TWU members. I realize that it is based largely on their fear of how a strike will impact them. While we all want to express our opinions and have the right to do so, this site is also for the exchanging of knowledge. I think it is time that those who are not directly involved, start listening to those, like Eric, Harry, Bill & Subway Buff (all dedicated transit workers and loyal union members) and find out what the real issues are.
You are right the real issues to the workers are dificult to understand for most of us. A fair contract to the workers and good service to the riders is what everyone here is after.
Good luck to you all. Contract talks can be very emotional especially if a strike is threatened but things usually work out. Barganning is a give and take effort, and to get them right takes some real effort.
Again good luck and happy holidays.
Thank you Steve. If the TA had a few more guys like you,
we'd be in better shape today.
You are right about this as well; we should all take a
moment to see the perspective of others. As a member of
the riding public, I would be outraged at the
inconsiderate workers who selfishly left me stranded at
home in central Queens without any way to get into
Manhattan and work. What should I care about their issues? It's my problem to get to work, and what do I do now?
Where's our mayor here? He's supposed to protect us from
these lawbreaking rabble!
Now I suppose that's the sentiments of many folks out there. And in large part it's justified. I'd feel the same.
But take a moment from your own self centered opinions and ask yourself this:
As fully aware of the consequences of a strike as we are, do you really think that we are willing to strike now at the holidays, loose a fortune and risk or jobs all to gain $25 a week?! We're THAT greedy, as some of you have portrayed us? That Selfish ourselves to risk all that's involved and put the public through hell for TWENTY FIVE BUCKS!
C'mon find out all sides of an issue before you weigh in.
I agree that only insiders know SOME of the facts -- dicipline procedures, picks, work rules, sick time, etc inside the transit authority.
On the other hand, insiders tend to ignore other facts: how does their terms of employment compare with those of other employees? How does what they are paying compare with similar employers. What is fair to the customers. So I think all the outsiders are also entitled to their opinions -- but not to insults -- by virtue of PAYING FOR THE SYSTEM EVERYONE IS ARGUING ABOUT.
From the customer's perspective, its a lot easier to know SOMEONE is to blame than to figure out who. TWU members made a big mistake not paying for (or otherwise having) a media campaign to tell their side. Aside from people reading this board, most customers never imagined there could be a strike unitl about a week ago. If a strike does occur, don't expect their reaction to go very far beyond how it affects THEM.
The broad perspective: monopolies are bad and exploitive, and the MTA is pretty much a monopoly for middle-income transportation to Manhattan. Just like Major League baseball is a monopoly ripping us off by demanding millions for new stadia. Just like the cable companies are a monopoly charging like heck for Cable TV.
Monopolies can threaten you, especially if they monopolize a necessity. People don't like to be threatened. Let's be clear, a strike will NOT affect TA management, the MTA board, or George Pataki. Riders are being threatened, because for millions of people, and for the city's economy as a whole, there is no real alternative to the subway (they could close down the buses permanently, allow private vans, and few would care).
That's why it is no joke to say that the solution to a stike is to break up the TA into competing organizations so a citywide, paralyzing strike can never happen again. If people are going to be inconvenienced, fine, than there is a right to free speech. But necessities are neccessities. If the Taylor law is not a solution, and stikes should be allowed or will happen anyway, than another solution must be found. The subway must become less important, or there must be choice of subways.
That's why it is no joke to say that the solution to a stike is to break up the TA into competing organizations so a citywide, paralyzing strike can never happen again. If people are going to be inconvenienced, fine, than there is a right to free speech. But necessities are neccessities. If the Taylor law is not a solution, and stikes should be allowed or will happen anyway, than another solution must be found. The subway must become less important, or there must be choice of subways.
You raise some interresting points but history does not favor your idea. It's been tried. Remember the IRT, the BRT, and the IND. They competed and the two former beat each others brains out and both lost.
As for alternatives, no one is gonna come in a nd build a 4th subway system. Bus companies will try to fill the void but lack of manpower, lack of equipment and lack of experience in moving such large numbers of people on such an incredible scale will doom them to failure (at least in the short term). Likely, the mayor's ace-in-the-hole will be to mobilize the National Guard to drive city busses if there is a strike.
A strike would be crippling but NY has survived them before. Memories of NYers walking across the Brooklyn Bridge come to mind. I suppose that if a strike does happen this time, we'll find out if this city is as great as it can be.
It should not be forgotten that the main reason the privately-owned IRT and BMT were unable to succeed was the unrealistic insistence of the City that the fare be maintained at 5 cents. The city administration was determined to make the private subways fail, and it did. If they had been able to raise the fare to 10 cents, or even to 7 or 8 cents, they would have been able to stay in business and make a profit. So there was only the pretence of giving that system a chance; it was never given a fair chance.
The city used to see transit as a revenue source. Most transit contracts with cities had the transit company paying a franchise fee to the city so the city could build streets to operate cars.
Poor riders of transit subsidized rich people that could buy cars Such a deal!!
Lary is correct that large organizations are difficult to mannage. The goal (reliable transportation) gets lost in the need to serve the organization.
Smaller operating units can help but unified control of some type is still needed Let the MTA be the banker and the indivdual operating components can be service delivery organizations. Who knows it might work.
Everyone would be impacted by a strike including the employees. Nevermind the loss in pay which will be hard felt at this time of year, but most employees also ride the system to get to and from work. So if a strike does happen many a Transit worker will be stuck with trying to get home in the early morning hours whether they support the strike or not.
Yes, but they have a say in their inconvienence. We straphangers do not.
To be quite honest, all the people you've listed as "knowledgeable" on this topic are TWU members who are biased by there very nature. You dont have to be a transit worker to know the issues in this debate. For a true debate to happen, all opinions must be respected, including those of passangers who would be effected by any work stoppage. It is this segment that is under-represented in this debate.
Actually, there are plenty of voices on SubTalk for the passenger (the passenger's perspective seems to uniformly be "Don't strike", find some other solution for your problem). It appears that the union membership (perhaps not the leadership) feels that they are out of alternative solutions.
The one perspective I wish we had here on SubTalk is that of the senior management at the MTA.
Many of the SubTalkers who are union members have let us know what the issues are from their perspective -- some seem extrememly important while others appear petty.
I'm sure the Management side has a list of their own. But they seem to be playing the PR game very close to the vest this time.
I'd wager a guess that they are items which would decrease the size of the labor force (OPTO, unmanned stations, automation, etc.) -- items which may make business sense but play very poorly in the court of public opinion. I assume that by keeping these issues (if they are indeed their issues) off the front pages, the MTA stays ahead in the game of public opinion. The public has already decided that the union is the "bad guy" because they're asking for a wage increase which exceeds what most of the public is getting. I'm not saying they're correct, but perception is often reality.
It's a bad week to be named Willie James.
Chuck
THE MTA is not an innocent participant in this mess. They seem to not be concerned too much with a potential strike, feeling that the Taylor Law gives them leverage. While this is true, avoiding a strike should be goal #1.
NOW you're making sense!
The TA wants a pre-packaged pick for RTO people at the bargaining table because they lost at the arbitrators desk at least 4 times. A bus operator always starts & finishes at the same depot no matter what route he works, a station agent & TA cleaner always work within a close block of stations. But take the Queens IND (EFGR) for example. You may start at 5 different places within one work week. There are also many total jobs on all 4 lines in which we can currently pick our days off from. But the TA wants to assign the days off to each job. So if the TA get this demand, if I should want a certain job I would be stuck with the TA's days off & run pay. This means I may not want to pick it because that job may have Tues/Wed off. We fear that the low paying jobs in which you get no recovery time between trips would have Sun/Sat off, while all the better jobs would have midweek days off. Still want Sun/Sat off? Be prepared to start at 95 one day, then 179, then Continental, then Stillwell, then Jamaica Center. We will not let the TA take away our seniority & pick rights. They will not break up our family life. I will strike for this right before I strike for money.
What's amazing is that RTO management wants this so bad.
It's a drop in the bucket in relative terms. They are
willing to make this a deal breaker. For $800,000 a year.
Sure a lot of money to you and me. But to an agency with a
multi BILLION dollar budget not a great amount in the
grand scheme of things.
Now as you can see form Bill's post, it's a crucial issue
to us. Last week RTO management came to the negotiating
table and took back all the deals that had been brokered
in good faith. In one swoop they changed the face of the
entire process. As they have been instructed by the
membership, the union will not discuss pre-packaged picks.
It was duplicitous of the the Authority to pull this at
the last minute. Forget the important safety issues such
as cab time or ending the mandatory work on your day off.
No, this issue is what's important to the heinous scum who
run ths railroad.
At the final RTO negotiation session, the Authority came
back with a "new" proposal.
All union proposals would be subject to this contingency:
NO union issue would be addressed until we agree to
discuss pre-packaging. What bullies!
Knowing the prejudice against the words "pre-package"
management created a slick multimedia proposal, with
slides, and booklet for the newly named LINE ORGANIZATION
PROGRAM.
Pre-packaging.
The union leadership, God bless our chairmen; Mike Carrube
and Eddie Creighton aren't stupid, and wisely called Nat
Ford and his stooges on this decietful plan. Knowing full
well the PERB regulations, that if either party agrees to
discuss, NOT AGREE TO, just discuss an issue, either side
can bring the issue to binding arbiration. This is a
tactic management uses to fradulently steal issues from
the employees that they know the employees would never in
a million years agree to. This is how OPTO was imposed on
us. Something else they absolutely had to have. Oh, all of
you fools who think that was about "progress" and saving
money. They spend more on the incidentals required to run
OPTO than they actually save on it! Explain to me the
savings of having TWO motormen on a shuttle train when a
conductor/motorman team is cheaper? But there's OPTO on
the GCT shuttle!
So the union men got up and walked out. Why should they
negotiate with these people who don't want to deal fairly?
And it's not just in RTO!
STATIONS: Swing shifts for station agents. An agent
comes in for 4 hours in the morning rush, and 4 hours in
the evening rush. The 4 hours in between is unpaid.
Basically they own you for 12 hours a day, and you only
get paid for 8. Unless you live VERY close to your booth,
(fat chance) it's another fatigue builder. More booth
robberies, more dead agents.
TRACK: In America unions fought long and hard for the 8
hour day. Well folks, the Authority wants it back. In that
department, management wants a 12 hour day for track
workers on Saturday and Sunday. The rest of the week would
be eight hours and there would be Tuesday through Thursday
off. Of course this means the 12 hour days would not be
paid at an overtime rate. Ever do track work? It's
backbreaking! Any of you have done it at Branford or
Kingston, then you know. Do it for 12 hours straight!
LOCAL WIDE: The Authority wants to discipline employees
arrested by the police but not convicted. Although an
employee is aquitted of a crime he could still be subject
to charges of conduct unbecoming. Double jeaporady anyone?
I could go on, but these are just some of the more
flagrant.
Now for all you SubTalkers who love to condemn us for
being "greedy" and "selfsh". This is an issue that goes
directly to the quality of life we live. It's not
something critical to the operation of the system. It's
not something that saves them a whole lot of money. But
management want's this so bad they are willing to force a
strike over it. Who's the evil ones now?
Barry, Chris, John. If we do strike. We are morally
justifed. Yes, it may be illegal. But so were a lot of
things Martin Luther King did. Just because a law
prohibits something does not make it right. This is not
something we do lightly. We know full well we face the
loss of a significant amout of our wages, and possibly our
job. But don't think we do it for a few percent. It's not
for a stinking $25 a week. Think about it. Don't you think
we lazy over paid greedy selfish transit workers wouldn't
risk so much unless it was a worthy cause?
Tomorrow I will be going to the mass membership meeting to
vote on the strike. I won't like it. But I will vote to
walk. Not because I want to. Because I have no choice.
A friend of mine who is a Train Service Supervisor on the IRT did confirm that the R-142 (Kawasaki) cars WILL BE DELIVERED NEXT WEEKEND TO THE 239TH STREET YARD. From what I hear they will be delivering between 4 & 5 cars Saturday and the same on Sunday. Prehaps after the 155th st. (Polo Grounds) Shuttle walk, We can make our way up to the 239th st. area and see what's happening.
does it have arail fan window?? and what happened to the others like
the 110s kawasaki cars etc?? ( those R NUMBERS higher than R68 )..
?????????????????
I don't want to disappoint you. The trend of newer NYC subway cars is full-width cab, i.e., no railfan window.
Full-width cabs indeed makes operators convenient. They can have some space to stretch their body parts. For a subway buff like me, I don't want to see railfan window go, but I am for all the improvements for the operators.
In fact, I enjoy riding R46s.
Chaohwa
There was speculation when the first cars with no railfan window were put into service that the reason was so that there would be one man operation of all trains. That might work on late-night, short-length trains but how can a man see 10 or 11 cars back to know when to safely close doors?
I want to disappoint him, he's a general nuisance.
About time,even thought we won't ride them until the spring of 2000.
What happened to the Bombardier Unit, Mark?
-Stef
Are they going to be in revenue service or just in a yard somewhere? If so, what yard. I will be in NYC next weekend. Maybe if I get a chance, I will head up there and see something.
It will be approximately six months, maybe more, before they turn a wheel in revenue service. As the first set to be delivered they will be thoroughly tested and evaluated prior to additional deliveries. Only after all the testing is complete will they carry revenue passengers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any idea what kinds of tests they'll be performing on the cars? I can't imagine what would take THAT long (6 months) to do. After all, wouldn't it be in Kawasaki's best interests for those cars to be ready-to-roll in full service from the day they are delivered? or is Kawasaki performing the testing?
I don't know. One of the regular posters who is employed by the TA gave an overview a couple of months back - you might be able to find his posts, although I'm not sure what the subject line was so I can't offer any assistance there either! Or perhaps he'll see this thread and provide the overview again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They need testing and operator quals as well. Heck someone has to write the operator quals to boot NO?
Just on a related topic -- where are the Bombardier R-142s? I thought those were supposed to be delivered to the MTA first for testing, but outside of the one car Stef saw last in the Oak Point yard area, there hasn't been a report of a test train appearance.
Could it be Bombardier has continued its fine reputation for quality craftsmanship into their newest trains (Hey, where does this wire go?), and the Kawasakis will be the only ones IRT riders will see in service any time in the near future?
JLee: Check this information about the R142 that someone saw at Fresh Pond Yard & the train is not for test. I want you to read this UTC Current Events November,1999.
Peace Out
David Meaney
Well, that explains the "why" as far as what the car was doing there, but when will the first cars coming down for actual testing arrive? up until now I thought the Bombardier cars would go into testing and service first -- right now it looks like the Kawasakis will be the first to arrive (though now that I think about it, the pending strike may have something to do with them not arriving on property as of yet, if the MTA is really as paranoid as they seem to be)
Today at the Kamakazi Yonkers plant, 7212,13 and 14 are being assembles and they look almost done.
For those who have been lucky (and legally) able to see the R142's almost or actually done....would it be legal to snap some pics for the good folks here on subtalk? If so, they would certainly appreciate it. We might need something to smile about come 12:01 Wed morning! -Nick
JLee: Check this information about the R142 & i want you to read this UTC Current Events November,1999.
Peace Out
David Meaney
Isn't it prudent to test it in service to see how the train holds up to actual conditions, like repeatedly stopping and starting? How will the doors hold up to constant "holding" that we all see every day?
Im Told these things are almost ready to roll into the 239 st yard. There UGLY looking with the red ends. The question is do they look like the R110As?
I would hope that scenarios such as you suggest would be included in the testing planned. Perhaps one of our MTA folks in the know could shed some more light on the subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
*Cars will arrive one an hour from 12-4 on Saturday and Sunday
(*Can change)
What? Why not bring the whole kit and caboodle at one time???
-Stef
Stef
From: Jeff Alterman
I can hardly believe it. Are you telling the truth? Are the R-142s arriving next weekend? If so please tell me the date and time. Also, when are they scheduled to enter service?
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson,New York 10706-1217
Phone & FAX (914)478-3454
The 1st car according to another post is arriving today, by truck at 239th St Yard in the Bronx. The rest? Well, those will arrive at the yard during the week. If you would like to see it, I'd guess you'd better head to the yard to see it from the street. Go to 241 St and White Plains Rd if you're not familiar with the yard, and the yard will be located to the east of the terminal.
Cheers,
Stef
boring??? !!!!!
Cars is plural. It is actually ONE car that will be delivered to 239th Street Yard on Saturday. The other cars will come during this week.
I was in Yonkers today and took a few shots. Who do I send it to to be posted.
BTW, they look just like the R-110A's except for the fact that the seats are gray and the red face
Send them to our illustrious webmaster, Dave Pirmann, pirmann@nycsubway.org.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there an alternate date in case of a strike?
Anyone have an idea? Let's look for an alternate day in January.
-Stef
January 9 is a Sunday, isn't it? How's that if there is a strike?
Unless someone else has an objection Mr. Shanske, I'll go with your recommendation. Is there anyone who is going to back David?
-Stef
I'll support it. I hope for the City's sake, and everyone else's, that there is no strike, but if the walk gets postponed I might be able to join it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why? you could just meet on the street.
Oops, I forgot that there's always the matter of getting there :)
I guess you missed the point. A number of us don't have an automobile. Well, if you don't mind catering to a bunch of us, then we'd be happy to ride in an automobile. Let me say this: the walk shouldn't take place if we can't start from 167th St Subway Station. We can look around and take note of the abandoned tower (let's exchange notes on the shuttle,shall we?) and pocket track (the middle track) used to turn the shuttles.
Then, we can walk to the street.
"I guess you missed the point."
No I didn't. I immediately retracted my statement.
I hate to see scratchiti all over subway cars. Do maintenance workers think of a way to remove scratchiti from the windows?
How to prevent sractchiti is a very tough question, isn't it?
Chaohwa
I don't know if it would be practical for a system the size of NYCTA, but I drive for a medium sized transit agency on the west coast. All our buses have thin clear, removeable plastic panels on the inside of the window panes to prevent the scratchitti.
If a window cover does get scratched, it is replaced. The scratched panels can be replaced in a matter of 3-5 minutes, and the scratched panel can be buffed out a time or two.
I've yet to see them on any rail equipment such as San Diego Trolley, Los Angeles County MTA rail lines, or in the San Francisco area -- only on buses so far. I believe the panels are marketed by Complete Coach Works of Riverside, California.
It's so sad that money and effort has to be devoted to outwitting the vandal/morons that deface the public transit environemnt. MTA buses in Los Angeles are pretty much free of painted defacement, but the scratchitti is as bad as ever. I was shocked to discover scratchitti on the east Angel's Flight (funicular) car, a historical monument, a few weeks ago, and it's still there. The Vandals of the Dark Ages are ever ready to take over. I'm really sad.
Here in Chicago, our buses are also having the panels installed. Plus, I've noticed that the rehabbed 2600 railcars are coming back with the panels too.
-Jacob
I recall that a few years ago the MTA did test that approach. Unfortunately, there are so many scratchiti-ists here, and they're so enthusiastic, that it apparently was not logistically or financially feasible. (I can't remember the cost of those sheets, but whatever it was it would definitely add up when multiplied over the many thousands of windows in the system.)
I guess the only solution will be a scratchproof window.
Occasionally you'll read some nitwit Village Voice writer insisting that scratchiti is OK because it represents class struggle blah blah blah (Richard Goldstein wrote a screed along these lines). To me it's condescending to say that poor kids can't be expected to understand and respect the distinction between Mine and Not Mine.
Occasionally you'll read some nitwit Village Voice writer insisting that scratchiti is OK because it represents class struggle blah blah blah (Richard Goldstein wrote a screed along these lines). To me it's condescending to say that poor kids can't be expected to understand and respect the distinction between Mine and Not Mine.
Anyone who condones vandalism is a total idiot. Lets put some scratchiti on his car, being that he doesn't mind. We can etch the MTA logo, the BMT logo, the BRT logo and a drawing of a Redbird right on his windshield.
I want to write a Chinese article in the internet about the potential strike on NYC subway.
Before I write it, I look for several books about strike history of NYC subway. Only one book, Under the Sidewalks of New York, has some descriptions about labor relations.
It mentions several strikes.
(1) 1905 IRT strike.
(2) 1918 BRT strike that led to the horrible Malbone Street Wreck.
(3) 1926 IRT strike.
(4) 1968 TA strike.
If my memory is right, there was a strike in 1979(???). I look for the www.nycsubway.org website but find nothing except the Malbone street wreck. Can anyone tell me other strikes?
Thanks a lot for your answers.
Chaohwa
In the living memory of most people, there were big strikes in 1965 and 1980. Hmmn. There were big blackouts in 1965 and 1977. There was a little blackout this year. Hopefully, it will be a little strike.
Labor relations on the subway were very touchy from before Unification (1940) into the war years as Mike Quill and his TWU sought to consolidate that Union as the only representative of operating personnel on the NYC system.
TWU hegemony wasn't achieved until the MBA strike in (IIRC) 1955, when the City broke the MBA and CBA (Motorman/s/Conductor's Benevolent Associations) with TWU help.
Under Mayor Robert F. Wagner, Jr. (1953-1965) there was a sort of sweetheart situation between most city unions and the City. Fairly reasonable (for both sides) deals were hammered out behind closed doors, generally satisfactory to both sides. Then the waltz began: Mayor Wagner would go before the press and complain that the settlement was a terrible deal for the City and would lead to ruination and dispair. The union members heard this, thought "wow, our leaders must have hammered out the best possible deal" and voted for the contract. Everyone was happy.
Then along came John Lindsay, who won the 1965 Mayoral election and promised to put an end to these deals. He promised he would be tougher with the unions, starting with the TWU. This led directly to the Jan. 1, 1966 subway strike.
Not only did he not win a better deal than Wagner had historically, but (IIRC) the TWU won a settlement about three times larger than previous contracts. This was the beginning of Lindsay's unfortunate administration which eventually led to the fiscal crisis of the '70s.
I want to write a Chinese article in the internet about the potential strike on NYC subway.
Before I write it, I look for several books about strike history of NYC subway. Only one book, Under the Sidewalks of New York, has some descriptions about labor relations.
It mentions several strikes.
(1) 1905 IRT strike.
(2) 1918 BRT strike that led to the horrible Malbone Street Wreck.
(3) 1926 IRT strike.
(4) 1968 TA strike.
If my memory is right, there was a strike in 1979(???). I look for the www.nycsubway.org website but find nothing except the Malbone street wreck. Can anyone tell me other strikes?
Thanks a lot for your answers.
Chaohwa
There was no strike in 1968. There was a strike on 1/1/1966 that lasted 6 days. There was another strike in April, 1980 (I don't remember the dates). The 1918 BRT strike is well-documented because of the Malbone St. wreck. Beyond that I can't verify any other strikes. I know about the 1966 and 1980 strikes because I lived through them.
There was a strike on 1/1/1966 that lasted 6 days
I stand corrected. It is documented in "A History of the New York City Subway System Part 1:
The Manhattan Els and the IRT" by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard O. DeHart, that the 1966 strike ran 12 days. According to Cunningham and DeHart's book, the strike halted service from 5 A.M. on 1/1/1966 until 4:19 A.M. on 1/13/1966. To quote:
"At 5 A.M., January 1, 1966, the entire system stopped. For 12 days, the city struggled with no subway or bus service. A settlement was reached early on january 13, 1966, and the order for service to begin went out at 3:30 A.M. At 4:19 A.M., a Broadway local left Van Cortlandt Park, and in six hours all service was normal."
The 1980 strike began on April 1st and lasted 2 weeks.
Yup. Grafitti artists had a field day with all those cars idle throughout the system. My sister's boyfriend bragged about tagging dozens of cars in the ENY yard.
Here's some info ...
The first strike of the unified New York City Transit System was a wildcat strike on June 14th, 1956. The 9 hour strike cut 2/3 of BMT & IRT service. TA lost an estimated $400K. 447 motormen struck of which 421 received a reprimand, 21 were suspended for 60 days and 5 were dismissed. In August of 1957, the 5 dismissed motormen were rehired.
On December 9th, 1957, another strike which hit the IRT Flushing Line the hardest was generally over in 2 days. Mayor Wagner announced there'd be no disciplinary action against anyone; all workers returned by December 16th. As part of the settlement, the second conductor on the IRT was eliminated. As the new post-war cars came on line, the second conductor would be gone from the other divisions, too.
The first strike of "recent" memory lasted from Jan 1 to Jan 13th, 1966. Mike Quill, head of the TWU, was jailed for contempt of court. He suffered a heart attack and later died. Ironically, he wasn't buried right away due to a strike of cemetery workers. WHen the strike was over, if token booth clerks weren't in a station, pasengers at that station rode free.
The most recent strike was in April of 1980.
--Mark
Rode for free? Maybe I'm open to this strike idea after all. LOL
Wasn t the strike of the Motorman by a unreconized Union the MBA(Motormans Beneveloent Association) and not the TWU back in the 50s. Both the Motorman and Conductors were very unhappy with Quill and the TWU, and wanted their own union, which the city did not reconize(sorry for the wrong spelling)
Yes, the strike was by the MBA.
But this was dirty dealing, IMHO.
Quill was trying to force out any other union (such as BLE) from day one and be the only noise in town. The crushing of the MBA which had HUGE support (1/3 to 1/2 of all motormen, depending on whose figures you're reading) made life easier for both the TA and the TWU, the 1966 strike notwithstanding.
Here is a little secenario I thought up so we can think of this from the Mayor's point of view. I have changed the circumstanced around to the "Mayor" has to make real decisions instead of waiting for thinks to solve themselves. The situation is: You are Rudy, hold up in your new command bunker 40 feet under City Hall station (the one at the WTC is a terrorist magnet) and the TA has gone out on strike. The Taylor Law has been ruled unconstitutional, you have declared a state of emergency and have suspended city council. In an effort to support you (and to ease the fears of North Jersey commuters) Gov. Chrristie Whitmann of NJ has given you complete control of the Port Authority. The strike could last a long while and many corporations are threatening to move out of the city and to take the suburbanites who would vote for your senate bid with them. You control the Police, the Fire Department, the trash tucks, the bridges, the tunnels and the airports. What do you do to get the trains moving again?
(What would you do?)
Transport subway riders in garbage trucks, or course. As far most people in this country are concerned, mass transit riders are trash anyway.
You put on a heavy overcoat over your shoulders, done a military hat, dark glasses and strike a pose imitating the dictator extraordinaire, Benito Mussolini. After all, he made the trains run on time in Italy!
And don't forget to save some quality time for your Press Secretary, since you have dumped your newsreporter wife (but NOT officially -- the wife comes in handy when you have to make personal appearances like the St. Patrick's Day Parade or the Rockafeller Christmas Tree Lighting!)
Doug aka BMTman
Here is a little secenario I thought up so we can think of this from the Mayor's point of view. I have changed the circumstanced around to the "Mayor" has to make real decisions instead of waiting for thinks to solve themselves. The situation is: You are Rudy, hold up in your new command bunker 40 feet under City Hall station (the one at the WTC is a terrorist magnet) and the TA has gone out on strike. The Taylor Law has been ruled unconstitutional, you have declared a state of emergency and have suspended city council. In an effort to support you (and to ease the fears of North Jersey commuters) Gov. Chrristie Whitmann of NJ has given you complete control of the Port Authority. The strike could last a long while and many corporations are threatening to move out of the city and to take the suburbanites who would vote for your senate bid with them. You control the Police, the Fire Department, the trash tucks, the bridges, the tunnels and the airports. What do you do to get the trains moving again?
To hell with the trains. I'd buy up a few million bicycles and sell them to the public. If I were Rudy, I'd have enough money to do this.
Bravo...Bravo... I'll invest in your venture. We could even rent them for a small fortune....
forcing welfare reciepents and disabled reciepents of welfare as well
and homeless shelter reciepents to
FORCED WORKFARE CLEANING UP SUBWAY STATIONS AND
SUBWAY CARS IS WRONG!!
especially firing and laying off
nyc transit janitors
AND FORCING THEM INTO UNEMPLOYMENT WELFARE AND FOOD STAMPS etc....
question folks.... to return to the same job cleaning stations for LESS PAY ????? what ??????????
Check oue eBay Item #215157511 for a hard-to-find history book on the Newark City Subway.
Ok, music trivia time:
First an easy one:
1) In the Village People's YMCA video, what is the last scene?
2) On the "street" scenes, there is some structure off to the left hand side of the picture. Is this an elevated train line or elevated road? If so, which one(s)?
Hi All:
I have several questions concerning the LIRR:
1) How does the LIRR's Automatic Speed Control work?
2) How does one become an engineer or train operator for a railroad like the LIRR or Metro North?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Greg
According to the LIRR "Rules of the Operating Department"
AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL
A system so arranged that it's operation will
automatically result in the following: A full service
application of the train's brakes if while operating under
a speed restriction, the speed of the train exceeds the
predetermned rate. The application will continue until the
train is either brought to a stop, or under the control of
the engineer, its speed is reduced to the predetermined
rate.
It functions through an electronic code signal
transmitting through the rails to an antenna pick up bar
suspended ahead of the leading set of wheels. The closer a
train gets to the one in front, the lower the speed
restriction gets.
At this time there is no actual stop code. Trains have a
minimum speed of just 15 MPH and are allowed to creep up
behind the one ahead. The only time an actual stop is
required is when encountering a wayside signal displaying
stop, or stop-and-proceed. AmTrak's NEC is working on a
stop code for their service.
Becoming an engineer is very difficult and frustrating.
After an exhaustive selection process, applicants are
chosen from a wide pool. Then you are trained for several months on your own time two nights a week and all day on Saturday's.
Then you take the rules exam. The definition at the top is
just one of many you must memorize, VERBATIM. Whole
passages of the rule book must also be memorized word for
word. The signal test is 100%. 99% is failing. Again, the
definition of the signal: word for word. There is PC,
physical characteristics. Maps of the track arrangements
are studied and tested upon. Air brake, mechanical.
At the mid point of the process, train handling training
begins, with introduction to th simulator. At the end of
the year long process, you are given a check ride, and
handed an FRA engineer's certificate.
I did it, and believe me when your done, there's no finer
pride.
To add to the list of subways in film and television, I was watching Star Trek: The Next Generation. In an episode called Emergence, the crew is on the holodeck on an old-fashioned train(supposedly the Orient Express), the train stops, they get off, and next you see them emerging from a staircase, which is clearly a NYC subway design, in fact, I read the signage that was only visible for a moment and it said New York City...although I couldn't make out the rest of it. The side side was a familar white on black SUBWAY sign. Although it was only a set, if anyone tapes Star Trek episodes, it is worth finding it and trying to see what the sign says.
This isn't the first time the NYC Subway has been linked to Star Trek. In the original series, the warp engine sounds are R-9s accelerating.
--Mark
Are you serious, or are you just playing with us?
They do sound similar
Perhaps the old phaser sounds are an R9 with some badly lubricated brakes
LOL
I am very serious. I'm not sure how the sound of the train on the tracks was eliminated (a mixer of some sort, I guess). I heard this from a number of Trekkies who knew it was from a NYC subway car, but they didn't know which one.
--Mark
How about in TOS, the sound of the engines accelerating? I've ALWAYS thought they sounded an R unit cranking up!
Is that a fact? Star Trek was filmed in California. I realize anything can be taped, if that is true it would be as Spock says, "Fascinating".
Very interesting. But someone on the Enterprise must be a subway buff. Nice to know our passion lives on until the 24th century
Ahh, but the original Enterprise missions (with Kirk and Spock) were in the 23rd Century.
As a matter of fact, Patrick Stewart ( Capt. Picard ) is a railroad buff. Last night's show is one of Patrick Stewart's favorite as per his bio from startrek.com. It involves trains and Shakespeare.
Isn't there supposed to be an old British Rail "Do not flush while train is in station" sign in one of the brig cells on ST-TNG, as a "can you spot this" in-joke?
So, I guess that means in the 23rd Century the Federation has gone back to the old straight edged pinon gears for their warp drive engines, instead of the gears with the teeth at an angle.
Wonder if Scotty had one of those emergency break handles coming out of the floor somewhere near the front door of the engineering room?
the warp engines on ncc1701 ( original tv series ) sound like
A GOOD OLD R1- R-9 BMT B D MULTISECTION AND LOW VOLTAGE IRT
AND BMT Q and yes they all had railfan windows !!!
And all this time I thought the Enterprise's warp drive was powered by Dylithium. What a disapointment to fine out it was plain old third rail! I need to get out of here, Scotty, one to beam up.
And the Klingons had a Q car drive gearing with link and pin connections......8-)
I guess when the Klingon on "The Trouble with Tribbles", suggested that the Enterprise be "hauled away as garbage", he knew what he was talking about! Captian's Logs, Stardate 56:23.1. Mr. Sulu, set course for 71st-Contintantal Avenue, Warp Factor 6. Engage!
Hey, Mark -- might I suggest that you go back to your original handle, 'Mark from Queens' -- your new handle sounds like the title for a high-priced cross-dresser ;-)
I'll take your advice. When I mentioned the change to my wife, she told me the same thing.
Ahhh, when Kirk used to say "Scotty I near more power" and Scotty said "I don't have power, sir", it was because he was having trouble removing the 100HP traction motors from all that rust ....
--Mark
Actually, I think when Kirk and Spock went back to 1930s New York in "City on the Edge of Forever" there must be some scene they cut out where -- aside from building that crude radio -- Spock converts the new IND R series cars to warp drive, and that's why they make that sound.
As Scotty said about the transparent metal in Star Trek IV: "How do you know we didn't give it to them?"
Actually, he what he said to McCoy was, "How do we know he didn't invent the stuff?" Give it to him they did! The actual product was transparent aluminum. That was as whale of a movie. LOL.
Yep, I think the R-1/9s were actually converted to warp drive by Spock, but then somebody at the Board of Transportation ordered the field shunting removed...
No, that was in "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock", when Kirk & his crew "steal" the Enterprise. Another ship was supposed to chase them out of drydck, I think it was the R-68, and when the Captain ordered warp drive, it basically sputtered out ....
--Mark
The warp drive worked fine in Star Trek III. What was missing was the R-68 deflector screens to defend against the Klingon attack. As Scotty said, "Aye, I didn't think we were taking her into combat".
"Keptin, there is a vork train directly ahead!"
"Mr. Checkov, brace for impact!"
Maybe the producers borrowed Hey Paul's tapes!!!
I second!!!
But it don t run all night and parking on the Vienna line is a bitch
I vote for Stockholm or Frankfurt
A tie between Singapore and Hong Kong. Tokyo s good too, but way to crowded, but their railroads are great. The worst I ever rode, Athens, but that was in 82 and they have new trains since then. London, The Picidilly line to Heathrow is the slowest.
Why?
--Mark
Obviously, our friend who posted the message about MARTA being the best system in the world, has not been to our nation's capital. No matter how much people may bash the central government, they cannot bash its subway system. WMATA (commonly called METRO) cars are clean, fast, spacious and well kept. The system is also the biggest of the transit systems produced in the late seventies. Larger than BART or, MARTA. I'm not saying that MARTA is the pits, because it certainly is not, but if you want to get around the city with the third worst traffic in America, you want to take the METRO, because the beltway has not taken any prisoners, last time I checked.
True--the Metro is a nice clean and safe system, but it has become unrealistic, to a certain degree, in its routing. With more and more federal offices moving to the Maryland & Virginia suburbs, most of the congestion on the highways comes from suburb to suburb commutes, for which the Metro doesn't accomplish. To help alleviate this, there are plans in the works to connect Silver Spring and Bethesda (on opposite sections of the Red Line) with a light rail line on an old railroad grade and of course, there has always been the dream of creating a line that goes all the way around the district & Arlington County--the so-called "Purple Line"---Will I see it built in my lifetime?--I doubt it---Only time will tell
The light rail is NOT a good idea at all!!! It will leave nothing for the bikers on the Georgetown Branch Trail and if it is double tracked, the trail and bicycle beltway will be history. Simply, WMATA should treat the J2 and J3 buses like a subway line. You should be allwoed to exit at Bethesda, and re-enter at Silver Spring for free and vice-versa.
you see folks with MARTA ATLANTA only having 2 TWO LINES the coverage
in washington d.c. is far superior in coverage track milage
beautiful stations BETTER THAN MARTA nad frequency of service
faster not TWO OR FOUR CAR SET TRAINS showing up only every half or hour service on weekends !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mata just dosent get it done LIKE HERE IN LOS ANGELES !!!!
"mata just dosent get it done LIKE HERE IN LOS ANGELES !!!!"
Yes I agree! Subways should NOT go to places where they're need and be useful to commuters like in Atlanta. They should be tunnels to nowhere good only for railfanning like in LA!
sorry there is no railfanning in los angeles just philly and
new york !! response to E D TRAIN ....
Yeah, you could say that WMATA is better than MARTA. It covers more area and it's clean, etc., like what you said. Except for the coverage area, they are almost the same. Even their cars look identical (not counting the front ends). However, Metro stations are all the same, boring as hell. At least MARTA stations have a variety and are architectural masterpieces.
There ARE differences in the vault designs in Metro Stations. Check out the DC Metro Page for examples of these differences. It is true that many of the stations (28 of them, give or take a few) DO share a common vault design, but recent additions differ from the original "coffered arch" (aka "waffle") design.
And the outdoor stations - I could find only a few that were truly identical to each other.
Wayne
The other day I was on an "N" of R68 (or was it an R68a... I can never remember which is which) that had upside-down "M" signs on the inside (no, I know they weren't "W"s!).. Why would 75-foot cars have those signs if they aren't allowed on the lines for clearance reasons?
Mike
Why would 75-foot cars have those signs if they aren't allowed on the lines for clearance reasons?
That is not true. They never run there, but they could. In 1976, the ERA Convention was held in NYC. On 7/4/1976, there was a fan trip using the D-Type, R-1/9 and R-46. I took this photo of the R-46 at Fresh Pond Road.
Wow, that new signal room really destroyed a great view from the northern edge at Fresh Pond. Nice pic.
First pic I've ever seen of a 75' car on the eastern division. Those cars would overhang the opposite track making the 120 degree turn onto the Broadway el.
-Hank
So I guess that would preclude 75' cars in regular service there.
<>
...unless the track/signal circuits are modified at the appropriate interlockings to prevent collisions by "holding back" trains on tracks which would be fouled by the overhang. (Yeah, I know, not likely to happen ...)
I don't think it's that difficult to do, but I also don't think that it's worth the effort. We should also widen all IRT tunnels while we're at it.
This is 138 Street
The next stop on this 5 train will be 3rd Avenue-The Hub.
<< We should also widen all IRT tunnels while we're at it. >>
THAT would be easier than finding intelligent folks in upper NYCT management.
How are you getting from 138th St-Mott Haven to 3rd Avenue without stopping at Mott Avenue???
Jus curious...
Wayne
A new cutoff.
This allows four tracks under Third Avenue to exist without merging them together first.
OK, but I'm gonna miss that jughandle! ;o)
Wayne (hope my cookie sticks THIS time)
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! BMT!
That was the Bicentennial R-46 fan trip I kept hearing about from ERA members who were on it. It had also went to Canarsie, and the people don't even seem to remember or be in agreement as to whether it went to Metropolitan too. Well, this answers that for good. The people on the fantrip had pictures as well, and I have recently been urging them to dig them out, make them into slides, and show and sell them at the meetings, but they all seem to have them buried amidst their collections. (How can you neglect stuff as rare as this?)
As for traveling there in regular service, they could be used for night and weekend OPTO service, where only one train at a time can round the Curve into the Myrtle Av middle anyway. Then, in the pre-ruch periods, the four car units would run on the first runs to Manhattan, which currently turn at Broad, but these would extend to Bay Pkway, and CI yard, where they would be coupled into regular 8 car trains for B, D or N service. Theyn they would return as the last trains from Manhattan. I was just getting ready to suggest this to the TA. (My earlier suggestion was to use unlinked 2 car trains on the shuttle and 6 car trains to run to Manhattan, but they linked everything but the 8 Franklin shuttle cars.)
The curve between the Bridge and Marcy, which was one of the other problems, has been rebuilt and eased, so that's no longer a problem.
(To get out there back then, as in this picture, service had to be halted in the other direction on the bridge.)
Perhaps, the structure approaching Myrtle could be widened, especially since a building was removed next to it (and the lot now used for TA painting and other structure div. equipment)
Now if they shave back the catwalk on the Southbound L track between Grand and Graham, they could run on the L to 8th Av. as well.
(They had apparently been tried here before, as an R-46 was reported in ENY during the truck cracking problems. They had considered running them on the L back then but didn't.
As for the original question, the original R-68 signs came with all the letters, (so they hve J and L too, but I don't think Z, which wasn't assigned yet.) AND, they also have all of the TERMINALS too!
Replacement signs, and 68A signs leave this out. I heard that the 46's might have them too, but I've never seen the curtains scrolled. The electronic side signs do have the J amd M as far as Essex St.
And the 110B have them, because they were designed for the eastern div, even though they supposedly messed that up.
That was the Bicentennial R-46 fan trip I kept hearing about from ERA members who were on it. It had also went to Canarsie, and the people don't even seem to remember or be in agreement as to whether it went to Metropolitan too. Well, this answers that for good. The people on the fantrip had pictures as well, and I have recently been urging them to dig them out, make them into slides, and show and sell them at the meetings, but they all seem to have them buried amidst their collections. (How can you neglect stuff as rare as this?)
That picture was a slide. All the pix that I took back in the Seventies were slides. I have others of the R-46 on the Eastern Div. that day. Photo stops were at E. 105th St., Central Ave., Fresh Pond Road (I opted to get off at Fresh Pond Rd. with other railfans rather than going to Metropolitan, and pick it up on the return run), and Hewes St. I just have a re
That was the Bicentennial R-46 fan trip I kept hearing about from ERA members who were on it. It had also we
That was the Bicentennial R-46 fan trip I kept hearing about from ERA members who were on it. It had also went to Canarsie, and the people don't even seem to remember or be in agreement as to whether it went to Metropolitan too. Well, this answers that for good. The people on the fantrip had pictures as well, and I have recently been urging them to dig them out, make them into slides, and show and sell them at the meetings, but they all seem to have them buried amidst their collections. (How can you neglect stuff as rare as this?)
That picture was a slide. All the pix that I took back in the Seventies were slides. I have others of the R-46 on the Eastern Div. that day. Photo stops were at E. 105th St., Central Ave., Fresh Pond Road (I opted to get off at Fresh Pond Rd. with other railfans rather than going to Metropolitan, and pick it up on the return run), and Hewes St. I just have a regular USB scanner. It is not really meant for transparencies, although I do have a light adapter for slides. Slides normally don't scan well with my scanner. Unfortunately, slides have to be light to scan well. Dark, or underexposed slides won't scan well. I have over 5000 slides, but only 1/4 to 1/3 would scan decently. I picked the best slide of the R-46 on the Myrtle to scan and put on the Net. To be able to scan slides with the kind of quality that Dave Pirmann has, requires spending at least $500+ on a good high-resolution photo and transparency scanner. I would sooner spend that money on computer upgrades. BTW, if a photo like that is really that rare, I wonder how much I can get for 5X7 prints of that slide on E-Bay.
Talk to the ERA about getting your slides in one of the shows, if you are apart of the group. People there also sell scanned pictures.
:·( No Seneca Av. I had always envisioned a picture of an R-46 in the same spot as a fairly popular R-11 picture and others. Oh well, I wonder if someone else took a shot there.
They should at least do another fan trip.
Talk to the ERA about getting your slides in one of the shows, if you are apart of the group. People there also sell scanned pictures.
I can't do that. First off, I haven't been an ERA member since 1977. Second, I haven't lived in NY since 1980. For me to give a slide show at the ERA would entail catching a flight to either La Guardia or Kennedy from Miami or Ft. Lauderdale Int. Airport.
Would you want to duplicate them and send them to someone?
Would you want to duplicate them and send them to someone?
I don't have any plans to duplicate anything at this time. Eventually, I hope to make some fo them available for all to see on the Internet. As for the R-46 trip on 7/4/1976, I'm talking about 15-20 slides altogether, hardly enough to make into a slide show at the ERA. If you want to see what I currently have on the Internet, go to my site NYC TRANSIT At present, I have 10 MB worth of goodies on the Net. If I put everything I want to put on there, it would probably total 100+ MB. Most of what's on there now is scanned prints. I just recently began scanning slides. Slides are much more difficult to scan than prints, especially when you don't have a professional transparency scanner. Because of the small size of a 35mm slide, the resolution and color comes out pretty bad. There's a limit to what Photoshop will do to restore the quality. The lighter the slide (without being grossly overexposed), the better the scan. The darker, more underexposed slides can't even be salvaged digitally. Needless to say, scanning and enhancing slides is a very time-consuming project.
Can't slides be developed to prints which can then be scanned?
They can, slides can also be scanned directly. A super-good slide scanner is very expensive, but I've got a flatbed with a slide adapter that cost less than $350 total - not good enough for book publication but it will do the job for web publishing, assuming the slide is reasonably good to start with.
What BMT LINES is indicating he needs, however, is at least a mid-priced unit and more importantly some good (and expensive) software to help "bring up" overly dark slides. Adobe Photoshop is excellent for that purpose, and there are probably other programs out there also that will work (Photoshop is the industry standard, though). However, I suspect that he (like me) can't justify that kind of investment just for fun.
Printing dark slides and then scanning the prints won't really accomplish anything, even if you bring them up some in the printing process, because the resolution loss will wipe out the gains made in the brightness.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They can, slides can also be scanned directly. A super-good slide scanner is very expensive, but I've got a flatbed with a slide adapter that cost less than $350 total - not good enough for book publication but it will do the job for web publishing, assuming the slide is reasonably good to start with.
What BMT LINES is indicating he needs, however, is at least a mid-priced unit and more importantly some good (and expensive) software to help "bring up" overly dark slides. Adobe Photoshop is excellent for that purpose, and there are probably other programs out there also that will work (Photoshop is the industry standard, though). However, I suspect that he (like me) can't justify that kind of investment just for fun.
Printing dark slides and then scanning the prints won't really accomplish anything, even if you bring them up some in the printing process, because the resolution loss will wipe out the gains made in the brightness.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have Photoshop 5.5 - the latest version. I wouldn't be caught dead without it. There are some things that even Photoshop won't do. I have all the graphic tools of the trade. I have a Web Design business that I do at home, which is why I can post on SubTalk at all wierd hours like 5 AM. I have Photoshop 5.5, ImageReady 2.0, ImageStyler 1.0, Illustrator 8, PageMaker 6.5, Premiere 5, MS Office 2000 Premium (which includes Word, Excel, Powerpoint, FrontPage, Publisher, PhotoDraw and MapPoint. I even have a couple of Macromedia products, like Authorware 4 and Director 6. What I am lacking is a good quality high resolution transparency scanner. That is not one of the tools of the trade for Web Design or Graphic Art work. That is a luxury ($500-1000+) that I can't afford. I would sooner spend that money on upgrading this AMD K-6-2 350 MHz machine to a P III 600 MHz machine or higher. Even that will have to wait. As for having prints made form slides, how much would it cost to convert roughly 3000 slides to prints? Much more than the high resolution transparency scanner. My HP ScanJet 4100C does fine with paper prints. I can get up to 1200 dpi resolution with it. You need at least twice that when working with slides, however for good quality. Its the slides that my scanner falls short with.
I've got an Epson 636U scanner that does a reasonable job with both prints and slides, provided the slide is decent to start with. Not sure what the resolution is - 3600 sounds right, but I'm on the road at the moment so I can't check the manual. The slide adaptor is a pain in the tailbone, however, and the Adobe software that was furnished with it is very cumbersome. But I can't justify the expense for anything better, although if I were ever to want to convert all my slide holdings to digital images I'd have a much bigger project than you! (Most aren't rail or transit, however - my subway collection is about 500 images, of which maybe 15% would be worth doing.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've got an Epson 636U scanner that does a reasonable job with both prints and slides, provided the slide is decent to start with. Not sure what the resolution is - 3600 sounds right, but I'm on the road at the moment so I can't check the manual. The slide adaptor is a pain in the tailbone, however, and the Adobe software that was furnished with it is very cumbersome. But I can't justify the expense for anything better, although if I were ever to want to convert all my slide holdings to digital images I'd have a much bigger project than you! (Most aren't rail or transit, however - my subway collection is about 500 images, of which maybe 15% would be worth doing.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Adobe software that you're talking about probabloy is Adobe Photo Deluxe. It seems to be part of the software package that comes with most scanners. I have it also. I never use it. Yep. That is a pain. It is supposed to be easy for the layman to use. Personally, I don't think so. In my opinion, Photoshop is easier to use than Photo Deluxe. As for slide collections on rapid transit, I have approx. 5500 slides of the trains. I would say about half (maybe a little less) are worth scanning and putting on the Web. Like I said on a previous post, most of what's on my web site is from prints that I bought at the ERA meetings in the 1970's. I just recently began to scan some of my slides to put on my site. Some of my slides, I also bought at ERA meetings and some I took myself.
The turn you're referring to is actually TWO curves. The one from Broadway into Ditmars Street is exactly 90 degrees, but it is tight. The second, leading from Ditmars Street onto Myrtle is about 45 degrees in the opposite direction. It's less than a train length from the first.
Wayne
I got a question & how did R46 get into Fresh Pond line?? Did they went thought the Williamburg Bridge or Linden Shop?
Peace Out
David Meaney
I got a question & how did R46 get into Fresh Pond line?? Did they went thought the Williamburg Bridge or Linden Shop?
Williamsburg Bridge.
I would add two words: very carefully.
Sounds to me like M and N shared the same roll sign and they didn’t bother to change it to what it should be – but that’s my guess.
There is one R68 (2800 series) on the N line which has it's route sign stuck halfway between M and N. On both sides, all you see is a partial, upside down M sign. It's probably broken, as I've seen this sign in this exact position for nearly a decade.
I'll tell you what causes that. Usually when these trains are made up in the yard, and the crew member is setting the signs, it's hard to tell, unless you pay attention to what you're doing, to tell the difference between the "outside" N and the "inside" N. Hence on the 68's you get an upside down 'M' on the outside, on the slants it's an upside down 'W', etc. For some reason all R-68 and R-68A cars have signs for the J, L, and M even though these cars will never be used there.
What does a Subway Buff do on winter's day when the wind is blowing so hard that you'll freeze solid in 5 minutes ???? Work INSIDE a subway car ... that's what five of us SubTalkers did this Saturday at Shoreline/Branford.
Steff & I arrived about 8:30, Doug aka BMT man, Lou from Brooklyn, and Lou S. shortly thereafter. We first had to help get the trolleys out of Santa weekend. Steff got the opportunity to "qualify" on his third trolley. We of course went along for the ride that tested that no obstructions (branches, etc.) or downed wires existed on the line. Then the hot choco had to be made & the cookies brought out for all those kids that were about to show up. Lou S. was also Dispatcher this day, but he spent a lot of time getting dirty with the rest of us. (we had the seats open & were cleaning the heater boxes out). In the afternoon another SubTalker, Jeff H., got out of his meeting & stopped by to say hello.
Later that afternoon we approched Lou about the possibility of the R-17 comming out for a little spin. He obtained permission, provided we waited until normal operation were concluded. So, at dusk when the trolleys were all safe & sound in their barns the R-17 came out. As we approached the Dispatch shed a couple the trolley operators flaged us down & hitched a ride.
So there we were with the lights inside on emergancy and the head lights on bright burning holes in the darkness as we went up & down the line a couple of times. What a fine way to end a day of getting dirty and companionship !
Lou S. & Jeff H. have long list of little jobs that need to be done if you too want to have some of this kind of fun. Although they can't promise that the R-17 can come out and play every time a few of us subway guys come up to help out, there is frequently a trolley being operated for one reason or another.
Mr t__:^)
Well said Thurston!!
I belive Lou S. was the "Yard Master" and they had another train dispatcher working the line. It was intresting in getting to look at the inner workings of a subway car, not to say almost 50 years of new yorkers ankle hair >GHappy to see R17's barn partners as well, PCC, R9 and others. Good time (still a little tight in the leg though!)
Wasn't that great? Each of us helped to take care of an elderly Redbird. With the sincerest thanks, I expect to see each of you gents along the way. We can now move closer to finishing this rehab project and continue on the fight to preserve the Rapid Transit Heritage which Branford represents (besides the ever popular trolley fleet). Wasn't that the great? We got to take the car down the line!!! You can't ask for anything better. Operations keep me coming back for more. Perhaps I'm a Rapid Transit Car junkie, all I know is I must have my fill of a certain SMEE car. She was fast!!!! The car is the fastest vehicle there (besides another pride and joy called the PCC).
See You Soon,
Stef
I wonder just how fast 6688 could go if the mainline at Shore Line were a nice, ruler-straight stretch about five miles long...
Once we replace the rest of the bad ties on the curve at Riverside we'll be able to apply power sooner going to Short Beach, and as you may remember the curve is part of a hill you're comming off of. So the speed will be respectable ... may have take power off so as not to pop the trolley pole off the wire ;-) The run is long enough with various events (switches, curves, etc.) that it resembeles the real thing quite nicely.
Mr t__:^)
Do they still cut power as a car moves past the trestle where the stone quarry used to be? It was explained to me once, but I don't remember the rationale. IIRC, the straightaway before the Short Beach end is nice.
Just before a car moves onto the Curve towards Short Beach (or coming off the curve and heading back to Sprague), there's a break (referred to as a Section Insulator) in the wire which requires opertors like myself to shut power off to the motors and simply coast over the break. There's nothing peculiar about the Quarry Trestle that I know of.
-Stef
Stef...the section insulator used to be at Quarry Trestle
and was moved back to the beginning of the curve in 1993.
Oh... That's what Steve B. was referring to.
-Stef
That's it. I've been to the museum only once since 1993 and didn't notice the break had been moved.
Sure. The car would have no trouble at all.
-Stef
I was thinking in terms of flat out speed, say, 50 mph. I'll bet 6688 will go that fast easily. Or, for that matter, 1689. Of course, the museum's electric bill would go through the roof...
I think 6688 has already gone 50mph. She was going pretty fast when we took her for a spin on Saturday.
1689? A bat out of hell perhaps....
-Stef
Yah, Doug BMT Man had her up there going fast.....
Doug was burning rubber!!!!
-Stef
You had to be there, right? I hear 6688 has touchy brakes.
Touchy? Her brakes seemed smooth to me....
-Stef
No, it has SMEE brakes the way SMEEs were designed to brake,
not all mushed out like the current equipment.
Right. In other words, if you throw it into emergency stop, you have people on the floor!
I always look forward to reports from you or Stef on the progress made on 6688. I particularly like that car because I more than likely rode on it on the Lexington Ave Local from 1955 to 1957 and the R-17 would have been the most modern of the equipment I rode before I left the city.
Keep those progress reports coming!
You bet!!! The car is doing just fine. Regardless of where the car is nowadays, she's still a good piece of equipment that capable of good operation compared to most old cars her age.
-Stef
Was this R-17 left in the condition and paint scheme it was acquired from the TA in - with fiberglass seats, or was it restored to a maroon exterior, blue/grey interior with red padded seats? Also, what about the roll signs? Original or contemporary?
As of the present time, 6688 was to be left in the scheme that it was in, when acquired from the Transit Authority in 1988. Known as a Redbird, the R17 was one of the earlier fleets of cars to be painted in the modern scheme (as of late 1984/early 1985). Besides lacking a General Overhaul of mechanical components, the car features orange side doors on the interior end of the car (also on the R36 way back in the beginning when the first cars got painted red), which later Redbird Rebuilds do not have. Signage is modern, plus the fiberglass seats. One cool feature about this car is that it's side destination signs are still lit which you can't even find anymore!!! Riding in the dark with only battery lights and illuminated side signs was a thrilling experience (especially at night - we were trying to use minimum power on the line).
Restoring the car to it's as delivered scheme is not out of the question, but no plans have been made for the car's return to the 1950s. It will be retained as a Redbird (1980s) for now. We'll need to obtain more materials before even considering this. One thing's for certain, I'll see the project through.
If you want to see how the car looks, check the SubTalk field trips page for the Shore Line Trolley Museum or the Museum Roster Page for R17 Car 6688.
Cheers,
Stef
As of the present time, 6688 was to be left in the scheme that it was in, when acquired from the Transit Authority in 1988. Known as a Redbird, the R17 was one of the earlier fleets of cars to be painted in the modern scheme (as of late 1984/early 1985). Besides lacking a General Overhaul of mechanical components, the car features orange side doors on the interior end of the car (also on the R36 way back in the beginning when the first cars got painted red), which later Redbird Rebuilds do not have. Signage is modern, plus the fiberglass seats. One cool feature about this car is that it's side destination signs are still lit which you can't even find anymore!!! Riding in the dark with only battery lights and illuminated side signs was a thrilling experience (especially at night - we were trying to use minimum power on the line).
Restoring the car to it's as delivered scheme is not out of the question, but no plans have been made for the car's return to the 1950s. It will be retained as a Redbird (1980s) for now. We'll need to obtain more materials before even considering this. One thing's for certain, I'll see the project through.
If you want to see how the car looks, check the SubTalk field trips page for the Shore Line Trolley Museum or the Museum Roster Page for R17 Car 6688.
Cheers,
Stef
Thank you. Per your suggestion, I took a good look at all the pix on nycsubway.org of Car #6688 to satisfy my curiosity. Although I prefer it as the R-17's origionally were, at least Shore Line Trolley Museum has one. However you choose to care for that car, keep up the good work. You are a true rapid transit enthusiast. BTW, I also visited Shore Line's site and saw the pix of the other rapid transit cars - a Lo-V, an R-1/9 and a Deck Roof Hi-V. The Lo-V (#5466 - I remember riding that car as part of the Lo-V Museum Train on ERA fan trips.) and the R-1/9 look to be in good restored condition. Although I didn't see the pix, I know that Shore Line has a BU and an A/B also. The Deck Roof Hi-V appears to be in desparate need of restoration. What is the story with that one?
Shore Line Trolley Museum (aka Branford) has not one but
five Brooklyn el cars: 197, 659, 1227, 1349, 1362. 1227
is in decent shape and operates regularly. The rest are
inoperable and require various degrees of body work. 197
is a trailer. 1349 is actively being restored.
The AB motor, 2775, is not operable and is in need of a barn
space, first, and considerbale body work, second. Deckroof
Hi-V 3662 operates well. The body is in fair condition and
some restoration work has been done.
2775 does have some visible corrosion. It had a fresh paint job the last time I saw it four years ago.
The BMT Std, 2775, SIRT #?, & Chicago 4280 all need some new friends to adopt them & start their restoration (hint hint). The other subway cars mentioned previously are all inside various barns with many comming out for New York Days. Hi-V 3662 and H & M 503 need a little more work then the others that operate, but they do come out. That's what brings me back again & again, i.e. the varity of equip. (including many NYC trolleys) that come out for NY Days ... it's a century of history passing before your eyes, all in one day.
Museums are always short on cash & resourses, but the subway click has been talking about which car will be next after we finish the R-17.
BTW, the museum just finished a major restoration job on a Connecticut trolley ... impressive job (I saw it when it was down to it's shell).
Mr t__:^)
Make that several. There are both BUs and Manhattan El Cars at Shore Line. Unfortunately, they're not in the greatest of shape. They need work and it'll be years before we see some of these. 1227 sees regular road service with it's partner of recent, years Manhattan El Car G. The master mechanic, Ted E. modified the hoses on Car G to MU with 1227. Car G has since departed Branford for a 5 year stay at the NY Transit Museum in Brooklyn. There maybe hope for another BU. 1349, a convertible, is undergoing a gradual restoration, and could eventually see use on the road. 1227/1349 would be a nice combo.
The AB Standard, 2775 is sitting at the back of the property, with SIRT Car 388. They aren't working at the present time, but I'll keep my fingers crossed for these vehicles of history. If I can get more experience working with these RT Cars, I might want to undertake my own project one of these days. But it's difficult to work on your own.
The Hi-V was unfortunately left outside the barns for many years due to lack of storage, in the elements. Unfortunately, the elements did their number on the car. The car works great, but needs much cosmetic work to be done. There's always hope for 3662. We just need a sufficient number of people to be able to work on the car. It takes time and $$$$. Again, there is always hope.
Am I a Rapid Transit Enthusiast? Why thank you! That's a great term to describe me. I am. It's up to guys like me to see that the cars get taken care of. I don't want to see anything happen to these cars, and I'm intent on preserving these cars so future generations of railfans can enjoy them. Are you a member, try becoming one and you'll be informed every month as to the what's happening at the Museum.
-Stef
Stef,
As an x-staten islander who rode the SIRT (now SIR) each day to High School I have an intrest in the 388 but right now would like devote what little time I have to 6688 >G<.
There's time for everything. If another barn could be built, then 388 could be housed out of the elements and it would be possible to work with the car.
-Stef
I read all that you posted re the status of Branford's rapid transit cars. Thanks for all the information. As for becoming a member, I would have no benefits of membership. I can't come up there to see or ride anything. I was born and raised in NYC, which accounts for my being a die-hard NY railfan, but I left the City 19 years ago. Unlike Sea Beach Fred, who comes in for a visit every few years, I haven't been back for a visit since I left in 1980. You know how it goes. I either don't have the money or I don't have the time. I never have both at the same time. I live in South Florida. The only trains I get around here is Mertorail and TriRail. nycsubway.org - the site itself, along with SubTalk make me feel like I never left, and are my only link with my old stomping grounds. While I was still in New York, I never got up to see Branford TM. I had a car, but I just never got to it. I regret that. If I ever get the chance to be in the area on a visit, I'll try to make it to Branford. Probably by then, you guys will have an R-142 added to your collection! Anyway, my hat is off to all you guys that volunteer your time, blood, sweat and tears up at Branford to preserve traction history. Without your effort, the rolling stock would be where the 9th Ave. El is today - in photos only.
Take Care and Happy Holidays...
Constantine Steffan
Take Care and Happy Holidays...
Constantine Steffan
Happy Holidays to you and everybody on SubTalk.
I passed Branford many times on I-95 and have seen it on maps but the signs and maps only said trolley museum. Until I started reading SubTAlk last year I had no idea it had subway cars (and NYC subway cars to boot!!) Since I wasn't really into trolleys I always passed it up until I found out about the subway cars and have since been there a couple of times. Maybe you guys should rename it "Trolley and Subway Museum" or "Rapid Transit Museum" and reflect that on the I-95 sign and maps. I'm sure you'd get alot more customers.
The main group of folks at Branford are trolley guys who passionatly love their old cars. That's a good thing, because if it wasn't for them most of these woodys would be just a pile of dust.
There is now a growing group of subway guys & gails who fequently come up to help, but the only reason that the subway cars exist at Branford is that the Board of Directors saw the value in obtaining them years ago.
[Maybe you guys should rename it "Trolley and Subway Museum" or "Rapid Transit Museum" and reflect that on the I-95 sign and maps. I'm sure you'd get alot more customers.]
That's not a bad idea. The one I had in mind was pulling a subway car out in the summer every time a "qualified" operater is available and at least positioning it at the high platform. There is also a number of the regular trolley operators that like to pull the handles on the subway cars. As they move from interest to a desire to be qualified there is every hope (on my part at least) that the subway cars may operate on a regular basis up their. Jeff I think this would draw more folks to the museum ... which would let them restore more cars.
But then I'm just a new member with a personal opinion.
When I'm their I kid the trolley guys about our small group. Case in point I thanked George B. for buying us lunch when we were doing the tie replacement job at "SUBWAY". They're a nice group and seem to welcome help of any kind, even if you care a lot about subways.
P.S. For you out-of-towners who love subways ... you could join the museum for a little as $15 and be kept up to date with the progress of the museum fleet. Every little bit helps. I like to kid visitors when they come by. Last weekend I was getting some coco then brought a small group buy the R-17 & said "I brought some customers by to show them what we were doing with their money" ... they were interested in subways cars ... I don't remember how the subject came up while I was sipping my coco :-)
Mr t__:^)
Mr t__:^)
You have to keep in mind that subway cars gobble vast amounts of power, plus there is more wear and tear on the track. That's why subway cars aren't operated as often.
Weather permiting move a subway car out to the high level platform (move it switching if you have to). Let people in the cab, lift up a seat and show a door motor, you don't have to operate her down the line IMHO, just get people to enjoy the chosen car and they will find out that twice a year these cars are operated down the line and THEY WILL COME BACK!! (like I did and became a member).
[You have to keep in mind that subway cars gobble vast amounts of power, plus there is more wear and tear on the track.]
This is true, but I think the current problem is that not enough folks are "qualified" to operate them. I could see the museum operating them on a limited basis, with some advertisement in advance, & if enough additional folks showed up, they would run more often.
It's the same problem in the Rail Buff area ... you have trolley museums & magazines ... you have Steam museums & magazines ... there are lots of freight diesel magazines and you're started to seeing diesel musuens (Danbury) ... BUT the subway folks don't seem to be well organized. Many of trolley museums already have much interurban & subway equipment. Maybe this site will make it happen ?
The folks that have come by while we were working on the R-17 seemed interested ... most had never or only once been on a NYC subway. October at "Autumn in New York" I found a small group walking around in the back of the property. They just happen to have come by that day & were very pleased to have had an opportunity to ride some subways.
Mr t__:^)
I understand that 3662's surviving sister Hi-V, Seashore's Gibbs 3352, also needs a great deal of work.
Right. With the time, people, and money, anything is possible. All each of the Hi-Vs needs is tender loving care.
-Stef
Sea Shore is another spot that has a lot of NYC cars and a line long enough to give them a good run. Our Traffic & Weather friend will be happy to tell you all about it !
Mr t__:^)
And Seashore has something that Shoreline doesn't: TWO IND cars!! R-4 800 and R-7 1440. I'm still drooling at the prospect at going up there someday and playing conductor on them.
They also have a elevated station for them to stop at !
Mr t__:^)
The R-17s were first assigned to the 6 when they entered service in October of 1955, so it's almost certain you rode on them. They were a direct replacement for the Gibbs Hi-Vs. Interestingly, St. Louis Car Co. hadn't finished building the R-17s when they were awarded the R-21 contract.
Kings Hwy on the Brighton was JAMMED today at 8:30am. No D to be seen in any directon. Q's were running packed as well. We did have a CI bound D on the express tracks around 8:45. No platform annoucements were made at any time.
Once I got on a Q, we were held outside Prospect with a Q at Atlantic BIE. This was the only information given the whole morning.
When we did get out on to the bridge it took over 30 mintues to cross it. Our conductor said they were turning trains between West 4 and 34th. We get to 42ndst and were held by holding lights for another 4 mintutes or so. (Green all the way to 47-50Rock).
Hmm, I wonder what was up, Normal Monday Morning pains or Labor Pains??
At this time, slowdowns would defeat the purpose of furthering sympathy for the union's fight. With the city going to court today to force the union to publically withdraw any threat of a strike, any incidents of transit workers doing anything to slow service down would only strenghten their case.
Remaining professional until (god forbid) the strike comes is the best way to go.
What is your opinion on Rudy Guiliani's massive spending of taxpayer's dollars in legal fees? Is there a need to file an injunction when the law already exists? He is threatening to recover money spent before the fact. That is money the city will lose and the union will not be obligated to pay. Why did he spend countless dollars on the Virgin Mary? That is freedom of speech. The same as a possible strike. The automaker and even railroad engineers have the right to strike. There is when an injunction can be filed. To block engineers from using their federally protected right to show their discontent to their employer. The Taylor Law can be used the minute we stop working. But obviously, most here don't care about the men and women who run the trains and buses. If we had passengers on our side, we could have pushed Pataki to let us retire earlier like Sanitation and Bridge and Tunnel officers. If we had passengers on our side, we could demand better cab time rules comparible to those of F.R.A. statue, thus avoiding deadly accidents such as the Williamsburg Bridge incident, resulting in the loss of life for one of our own and injuries to many New Yorkers, who are the cause of our existance. We could take our issues to the media and wouldn't get a minute of exposure. Instead the NYCTA brands us as Saboteurs, Cowboy Motormen and other names and we have no way to fight back. Without the passengers on our side when it comes to safety, health and schedule issues, we are left to fend for ourselves. Personally, I would be happy with the 14% last offered without the privatization and pick right rule changes the MTA is asking for. Trust me when I tell you that Wilie James is NOT speaking for the members. Out of the crews you may have spoken to or heard on the radio, how many asked for 27%? I don't expect any support from any outsiders except a few unnamed unions that have pledged their support to amplify our message. Even if it means isolating ourselves from the very source of our true employer, the citizens of the City of NY.
At 7th/53rd at about 8:45 AM, I heard an announcement that due to an incident on a B train at 34th street there was no uptown B service running. Naturally, an uptown B train appeared within 60 seconds of the announcement.
Chuck
I wonder if they let #4191 out before she got the full treatment. She was broken down at Coney Island-Stillwell on Saturday evening (round about 5PM) with air hissing out of her front coupler and the T/O unable to charge her up. We were all ready to have a nice ride up the "B" Line at her front window when this unfortunate incident occurred, leaving us no alternative but to get aboard a SLOW R68A - waiting would have been no good, since I was informed that she was the only Slant out on the "B" at the time.
Wayne
To all those who might have been offended with my statements against what the TWU has been doing lately, I apologize. I still think your contract offer is fair, and that the threat of a strike is akin to blackmail. But I did not mean to offend anyone who truly believes otherwise.
As someone who's has been on both sides let me tell you this ... BOTH sides spin little lies. The real truth is somewhere in the middle.
Please understand that I've purposely NOT read a lot of the "strike" threads, so it is not my intention to say that anyone here is telling anything less then the truth, HOWEVER Virgil & Willy are. That's part of the game they play. In front of the TV you would think they hated each other, they don't, that is if they're professionals. But then not all those in Labor Relations or TWU leadership are professional.
When they're in that room they have to be able to talk to one another.
Ever yell at your kid ... and noticed how they tune you out ?
Mr t__:^)
Ever yell at your kid ... and noticed how they tune you out ?
Mr t__:^)
My kid? He's perfect ....
LOL
Ever yell at your kid ... and noticed how they tune you out ?
Mr t__:^)
My kid? He's perfect ....
LOL
Here in Hawaii last month 540 Long Shoreman threated to strike because of wages. It would have held up shipments of food, and other goods to the remaining 1.2 million people in the state, since 98 pct of the items that come into Hawaii come by sea. The received their 8 pct raise over three years, which means the people here will have higher prices. By the way the Long Shoremen before the raise were averaging 92K per year, and the union is a source of Nepotism, because to get in you have to have some one introduce you, usually a family member. Very few outsiders get in because of that rule. Sourcs the Honolulu Advertiser and NBC Local News Nov 1999
Did anyone have luck in getting this new card today? It was due to hit. Wouldn't be surprised if its late.
Joe C
Joe, et. al.,
Was just going to post the info.:
The NYC card reads the same as the Chicago one. It also looks to me like it's exactly the same artwork.
The words are: "Mints for people who ride in a metal box" + logo below the words.
Mr t__:^)
I saw one in the sealed container- the art is on the back and the color of the background is light green.
We've lived up to our name again. TODAY at noon there was a management meeting about what to do in the event of a strike. We were handed out forms to fill out, where we were required to state how we would get to work in the event of a strike.
I said I would not come in, because the FED pays my wife more than the city pays me, and someone has to be responsible for child care. I offered to work from home. Let's see what they have to say about that.
I think I might come down with a nasty case of "transit flu" should a strike come on Wednesday. If only we all could do that, then a strike would not be a big deal.
Until last week my employer (based in the deep south) thought that the office-based employees could just drive in an hour earlier and park near our downtown office. They though we were conning them until our local sales VP explained the situation to them. They didn't really believe him until a executive from HQ visiting the city re-explained the situation to them. Now the plan is basically no plan, but certain locations can't be unmanned or worked remotely. The company is just betting that there will be no strike.
My "City" employer has notifed me that I have to get to work PERIOD. They will allow a flex in reporting time as long as the full 7 hrs are worked but I have to get to work. I am at a lost on how to do this without owning a car or even a bike.
My employeer isn't even helping in posting possible car pool canidates or any type of list on the bullentin board.
When I call out sick or vacation and they deny it, it will just be another union battle (grievence) to be fought down the road.
Hey, Lou, there should be tons of those Dollar Vans riding up and down the major thoroughfares (like KingsHwy, Flatbush Ave., Coney Island Ave. etc.) if there is a strike, so that might be one alternative to transportation.
Doug aka BMTman
I hope the Mayor does the smart thing and calls an emergency meeting of the City Council tomarrow night to legalize ALL private vans that meet insurance, license and safety requirements. They'll vote no, but it will at least make the look like the bought SOBs they are if a strike occurs.
[Hey, Lou, there should be tons of those Dollar Vans riding up and down the major thoroughfares (like KingsHwy, Flatbush Ave., Coney Island Ave. etc.) if there is a strike, so that might be one
alternative to transportation.]
Something tells me that in the event of a strike, the dollar vans will magically transform into the five-dollar vans :-)
MY problem is reverse commute, I'm going from Brooklyn to Queens. I could take the Command Local bus to Gritisen (sp?) Beach and then get another Command Express bus into the city but then I have to get up to 59th Street and walk across the Queens Boro Bridge. I travel From Brooklyn to Queens Plaza every day.
well folks, how about the many of us who work nights?
I promise you that for every expense we incur during the strike will come out of the Union's pockets. I have two conductors in my my neighborhood and I will sue them for damages if the strike goes on. Think about that.
Oh and by the way, the law says you cannot strike and that's a Federal Law and those who break it are subject to jail time and monetary penalties.
Lou, I'm not sure where you are in Brooklyn but if you are anyplace close to Flatbush Avenue - you might be able to go Flatbush Avenue to Jamaica and then Jamaica to Hunterspoint or LIC. It's probably still alot of walking but might be one of only a very limited number of ways to travel to and from work.
and the members are hell bent to strike, he'd go out of his way not to offend the riders, and to seem like Robin Hood not the Mafia. What would I do? I would call a press conference and announce the following.
"The TWU has decided people are getting too wrapped up in work, too greedy, and too inconsiderate of workers. Therefore, we are declaring Friday December 17th to be a 'friends and family day.' We won't be coming to work, and we suggest you don't either. Since it will be our fault, not yours, we suggest that you have your union demand that your employer pay you anyway. If you don't have a union, call the TWU at ###-####, and we will tell you how to get one."
"We are taking this step, despite the threat of Taylor Law penalties, became we are desperate and need to dramatize our unfair treatment in the last two years. We expect to back at work on Satuday at 12:01 a.m. However, if there is any harrassment or retaliation, the result will be a full-fledged strike. And if we do not reach a reasonable settlement in the meantime, there will be another 'friends and family day' on January 3, and we can all enjoy a four day weekend to start the millenium."
Its about deflecting blame. Blame the boss for not paying you. Blame the MTA for providing a full strike. Limit the damage to the riders. Look at Rudy. He's loving it! It's two-thirds the TWU's fault. It's one-third the MTA (ie. Pataki's) fault. I may have cut off almost all city funding for the MTA, but no one is saying so, so its not my fault.
As it is, everyone will blame the TWU.
The members will have no one else to thank if the union wins on its contract. New DIRECTIONS is the driving force behind the push for a fair contract. If it were not for this now established group, the leadership would of settled by now for 9.25% 4yrs. We need to stick by our current leadership at this time though. We also deserve the 30% raise. But when the smoke clears, you better believe ill be voting new directions this time around.
Maybe i'm dumb for not letting this go, but why do you think you deserve a 30% raise?
New Directions is a militant and aggressive loudmouth minority. I recommend ignoring them and letting the customer ride without worries and letting the city function normally rather than cause all this unwarrented trouble.
I can't wait for Guiliani to throw the book at the strikers.
If you get a 30% raise, then we, the riding public will be paying $1.90 for the ride. That would be an outrage. No one gets a 30% raise in this economy, unless they change jobs or careers. I would like anyone out there who has been in the same job over the last three years who got a 30% raise to identify themselves, elected and appointed officials and company presidents (who all have influence in setting their own salaries) excluded. That may have happened in the 1980's when salaries had to be adjusted for workers who fell behind in real wages due to the inflation of the 1960's and 1970's, but we haven't had an inflation problem in years!
I must admit that this year I did get a 33% raise (last year's was only 20%). I won't say what company I work for but I will say that it is a Managerial Consulting firm and that this type of raise is common within this industry.
Did you get it because of your performance on the job improved to a point that a 33% raise was justifiable? Or did you simply get it because you belong to a union, and it's in your collective bargianing agreement? Merit raises are common. Conctractual raises of this size are unheard of.
Well maybe its time to make raises of 30% more common. Lets start with the T.W.U. LOCAL 100 AFL-CIO.
As a taxpayer, I'm telling you loud and clear: no
Raises like that are common in private industry if you do some serious brown nosing -- otherwise it is quite rare unless you worked your a-- off during the year.
Doug aka BMTman
It also helps if your boss is a relative. LOL
[Did you get it because of your performance on the job improved to a point that a 33% raise was justifiable? ]
I got it partially because of my performance but mostly because other firms were paying more and my firm didn't want to lose me. I"m not part of a union.
Well you have convinced my that I am in the wrong business!!! (Then again, I already knew that.)
Well maybe you might not be aware of this, but the mayor and the part-time city counsel voted themselves a 30% raise last year. We transit workers were forced many contract givebacks and no raises for over 2 years. This system's ridership is booming. This makes the simple bus operator's job or any title more stressfull and demanding. We deal with the lives and safety of your friends, family everytime the board our system. Other MTA railroads make 6 to $7 more an HOUR for transporting far less people. NEW DIRECTIONS IS NOT A SMALL GROUP. MR. james won the past election by only 600 votes out of about 20,000 casted. NEW DIRECTIONS, and make no mistake about it, is a force to be dealt with. TRY AGAIN!
The mayor's raise, along with the City Council's raise was ripped as unfair by almost every one in here, yet it's the first thing brought up by defenders of the union who say a 27% raise for TWU workers. If one is unjustifiable, then how can the other be justifiable?
BTW, the Mayor's raise was a 1 shot thing. Mayoral raises don't happen every year, and another raise won't likely happen for a long while.
Transit raises dont happen every year. We have 3 year 3 month contracts and over the course any raise is spread out over this time. And if the mayor's raise was not justifiable then why wasnt this corrected. We make this city funtion putting up with alot. We just want a fair contract. If not get out your roller skates until we do.
Translation: we feel we deserve more, and until you give us what we feel we deserve, we will blackmail you by walking off the job.
Perhaps this demonstrates why I've been so caustic about this subject lately.
The 30% mayor & council raise over 3 years won't cost us anywhere near what a 30% raise to all transit workers would cost. How do you suggest we pay for this?
[NEW DIRECTIONS IS NOT A SMALL GROUP. MR. james won the past election by only 600 votes out of about 20,000 casted]
Which probably is why he's taking such a hardline approach.
the mayor and city councel did not get raised for almost 10 years. Lets see transit workers take no raises for 10 years and well give you a 35% raise. Thats sounds fair
"the mayor and city councel did not get raised for almost 10 years."
Well, that's not true, BUT the mayor and the council do get infrequent raises, and in the case of the mayor, there's only one.
This is Third Avenue - The Hub, change to the 5.
The next stop on this 2 train will be 156 Street.
The latest news is that both the MTA and TWU have convinced the govenor to reinstate the states contribution to the MTA so that a raise would not affect the fare. As for wages being adjusted due to the fiscal crises of the 70's and 80's that is what the union is asking for. During the past 2 decades when the MTA was working with a deficet transit workers gave back benefits and took wage freezes or minimal increases to help the MTA survive(eg. last contract 0-0-3.25% over three years). Granted the unions proposal was high just as managements was low, but like I said before that's part of negotiating.
Wages can be settled. It is this disrespect vs. low productivity that seems to leading to a strike.
I listen to radio traffic on the BMT when I ride the train everyday. I am using a Radio Shack Pro-46 Scanner and I seem to hear Dekalb, City Hall and Control clearly. However, if I am in the first car and can hear the TO's radio, I hear traffic that I am not getting. I don't know if the problem is my scanner or the frequencies I am listing to. The frequencies (for BMT) that I use are 161.5050 and 158.8050. Does anyone know of another frequency I should be using?
See the FAQ. http://www.nycsubway.org/faq
-Dave
Dave,
Unfortunately that only lists the status codes rather than the frequencies. Here's what I've been able to compile so far:
1. 158.775 train to dispatch for BMT
2. 158.805 train to dispatch for IND
3. 158.880 train to dispatch for INT
4. 161.190 dispatch to train for IRT
5. 161.505 dispatch to train for BMT
6. 161.565 dispatch to train for IND
7. 160.260 Regular subway/train police
8. 160.305 Brooklyn Stations Police
9. 160.500 Bronx Stations Police
10. 160.695 Surface
11. 160.905 Manhattan Station Police
12. 160.965 Queens Station Police
Our good friends at transit's operations planning have decided to
change the rush hour service on the White PLains Road lines. The 2
train will run express between 180th st and 149th Street as will the
5 line thru express to 238th st. All 5 line trains to Dyre Ave will
run as locals between 149th and 180th st. 7 additonal stops. It gets
better in the peal one hour there will be only 7 trains rather than
the current 12 trains because there are less Dyre trains than 2 line
White Plains Road trains. An almost 50% cut in service. Happy New Year
bronx riders from your friends at New York City Transit.
Hmmmm, I don't see the logic in this idea. They should run all the #5 trains up to 241st St. and all the 2 trains to Dyre. Run every 5 as an express. Much simpler, huh?
I agree with you, but possibly, they can run all the 5 to 241 st Express to 241. Run all the 5 local to Dyre Ave and the 2 local to 241st. Seems like every other 5 is a 241st Express.
But the way they have it now is not good with the 5 going local up to 241st, after E 180, along with the 2 train. I know someone mentioned the terminal at 241st, couldn't handle an Express, well let the 5 terminate at Nereid as its doing, and go back as a 5. In the morning let two 2 or 3 #2 trains then send a 5 down. Not that hard.
FrankD
I think with 2 #5 services, it increases confusion. As it is today, people know that the 2 runs local, and the 5 runs express. With some #5's running local and the rest express, confusion will occur. Just switch the 2/5 service above 180th. With this, you could run 5 express service not just during rush hours, but all day long (like the express service on the Pelham line). Now that would be an improvement.
To keep things more simple, run the 2's express and all 5's locals regardless of the terminal.
N Broadway Line
That's not a good idea. More people use the 5 line.
Actually, it would be a return to the way things were before 1965. Now if only the MTA could see the light on the Southern Division...
Make the 5 EXP a 8, The 2 Exp a 10. Also make the Broadway 9 A Express North of 96th St to 145th St, then skip stop service there. Like they did in the Mid 50s when they had the Bdwy Thru Exp when the 1 was a local and exp
That's a good idea. The 5 thru express could be the 8, which would clearly distinguish it from the Dyre Ave. 5.
10 is the number reserved for the 5 express. Perhaps if they do this, then you'll see this new number, but the line would have to use R-62's (or paste it over in the redbirds.) Or perhaps the change will take place when the new cars come.
When do these changes go into effect? When the 63rd Street Connection opens, and cause major changes throughout the subway system like in 1967, when the Chrystie Street Connection opened?
If the 10 is implemented, and if R-62s are used, it will be self-explanatory. Then again, if they follow the traditional practice of using the oldest equipment only during rush hours... Don't the Redbirds already have double-digit route signs?
I dont think so. Most of the redbirds don't even have signs for the 9 line.
What they could do is be conscientious about the diamond-vs.-circle "5" signs - make sure expresses display diamonds and locals display circles. Of course, that would still be a deviation from the nominal meaning of diamonds being for "rush hour" service. All "5" trains in rush hour originate (or end) in Brooklyn, whereas non-rush 5's don't, so a case could be made for all the 5's at that hour to carry diamonds. But that would convey no useful information, while having the White Plains Rd. expresses show diamonds and the Dyre Ave. locals show circles would.
I constantly see diamond 5 trains running along the Dyre Ave. line. What they need to do is simplify everything by switching the 2 and 5 completely, running all the 5's to 241st. and all the 2's to Dyre.
The only reason I wouldn't see this happening is the fact that the Dyre Av line sees far less patronage during the night hours than the line on Whie Plains Rd. Running the 2 to Dyre at all times wouldn't be worth the money. The shuttle runs during the night as a connection for service into Manhattan. What would they do in the event of a terminal swap? Run the shuttle to Dyre and route the 2 to White Plains? It doesn't make any sense. The full time line needs full time service (2 between the Bronx and Bklyn), while the part time line can use a part time service (the 5 which runs all times except the night hours).
-Stef
Run the 2 to Dyre. Run a shuttle from E180th to E241st. When night service along the Lefferts Blvd. spur of the A line was reduced from full time service to nightime service (1992), nobody made a big deal about it. The West End line carries a lot more peole than the Sea Beach does, but they run the Sea Beach line 24/7, and the reduce night West End service to a mere shuttle.
(Night time spur service).
Everything's a spur. There are multiple waits, and 20 mintue headways. The bus service disappears. That's why I think you out to give my night service reorg a close look. It has to be better than this.
"I constantly see diamond 5 trains running along the Dyre Ave. line. What they need to do is simplify everything by switching the 2 and 5 completely, running all the 5's to 241st. and all the 2's to Dyre."
White Plains Road is more important than the Dyre Avenue Line. Therefore, the 2's must stay on WPR, while the 5's on Dyre. What they should do is run the 2's express during the peak period up to 241st or reverse direction.
N Broadway Local
The trend of NYC subway route planning is to simplify the services. Putting #2 into Bronx Express during rush hours may further confuse the customers.
Currently during rush hours, customers know that if a #5 train is coming, it is an express; if a #2 train is coming, it is a local. Putting #2 an express will generate more complaints than convenience. People will be confused which line they take because both lines go express. I took a stand from an ordinary customer's view.
Another thing is what customers will go from the White Plains line. If most of the customers go to east side of Manhattan all times except nights, I am in favor of terminal switch. Otherwise, stay where they are now.
Chaohwa
Can People in the Bronx Read the difference between the numbers 2 and 5 and the colors.? Also take the shape of a circle or diamond?. That is why the expresses should have new numbers
Hey bob, check my post on what I suggested, i think you might like...
Briefly said have the 5 to Dyre all times, 2 to E241st Street, and the new 10 which replaces the 5 to E241st running the only Bronx Express rush hours. Check the post for more details...
Frank D
I still don't think new number is necessary.
(a) From the number standpoint, 2 stands for all local in the Bronx; 5 stands for express at rush hours in the Bronx.
(b) From the color standpoint, red stands for all local in the Bronx; green stands for express at rush hours in the Bronx.
Two numbers or two colors are enough for customers to tell which line (number or color) to take during rush hours. Even if new numbers are installed, some customers will still be confused because there are too many numbers to think about. Keep them simple.
In my opinion, adding new numbers is like going back to the 70s when AA and CC were existent. Too many lines, too much confusion.
Chaohwa
Confusion would be too much, I still like it the way it is, just extend the 5 diamond express (Bronx Thru)to 241 st. Let the 2 stay local.
Frank D
That was done in the past, with the special 5 trains running express from Gun Hill south. People below Gun Hill complained about the lack of service.
Just run the 5 to 241st. Run the 2 to Dyre. Leave the 2 local south of E180th. It's the simplest and most sensible idea.
Thats reasonable, but the Bronx has grown a lot and need to have an express again past E180th, at I think. If the 2 train comes out of E241st every 5 mins, then followed by an express, I don't see many people complaining.
But if you move the 2 to Dyre people might complain about that move as well, although I don't see anything wrong with it.
Frank D
The current idea will also cause Dyre Ave. riders to complain. People would adjust.
If the WPR line is more important, then it should be served by the 5 line. The 5 line is used by more people than the 2. This only creates problems at night, with the more important line reduced to a shuttle. Big deal.
"The 5 line is used by more people than the 2. This only
creates problems at night, with the more important line reduced to a shuttle. Big deal."
It would be if they raned them more often. However, the transit don't have their priorities right! Presently, they are 2 2's and 3 4's for one #5 line going into the bronx during the evening rush hour.
N Broadway Local
The bottom line is, the #2 in the South Bronx duplicates the #6. It's two blocks away -- that's why it deserves fewer trains.
Fantasy -- this line is number one in my book to be torn down: it is a contract#1 el. It would be replaced by a 3 track subway under Boston Road until the point where the current line intesects it. That way, it would be further from duplicated the #6, and closer to the riders marooned by the loss of the 3rd Avenue el.
It you're going to put in underground, you might as well not do it halfway like they did on the Concourse line and make it a four track line from 149th St.-3rd Ave. to East 180th. And also, eliminate the jughandle and put the 5 on its own line to 3rd Ave.-149th, so either it, or the 2 would be the express and the other the local in the Bronx (the same as it is between Borough Hall and Utica Ave. in Brooklyn)
(Four track line)
If it were up to me, there would be three lines -- one Dyre Ave to 180 and then express, one 241st to 180 and then express, and one local from 180th. How that would work in Manhattan I'm not sure.
I don't think there is sufficient capacity on either IRt mainline to add an entirely new route. The Dyre Ave. line is not used nearly as much as the White Plains Rd. line. Running whatever line that serves it local south of E180th is no big deal.
I do believe that if the line was rebuilt underground, the number of stations could be reduced by placing them farther apart, especially in the area where the 2/5 and 6 lines come closest to one another.
Actually, I supposed if they were going to ever stick the 149th St. to 180th St. section under the Post Road and four-track it, it ought to be linked to a spur from the Dyre Ave. line to Co-op City. The 180th St. to Dyre section can already handle four tracks, so they could modify the Gun Hill Road station to a center platform, run the express to there, and then split off the express line to Dyre or Co-Op City and send the other line to the other terminal.
(The "other" line could just be a split 5 service, the same way the A runs split service now to Leffert and the Rockaways)
Are you stealing that from me?
In my stations announcements on this board (there won't be any more, it's not part of my new MO) I showed the 5 cutting directly to 149/3 and the 2 and 5 going up Third Avenue. The 2 goes up Third (well OK, I orignally planned it the other way) to Fordham Plaza and the 5 goes down Boston Road rising from the subway into 180 Street. Of course, this is because Dyre is serviced by Q trains coming in from the Second Avenue Local.
My fanasty is the 2nd Avenue travel along third avenue, bronx. However, the number 2/5 idea is much cheaper and much better. It might even revive that area too.
N Broadway Line
At no point are the 2/5 line and the 6 line two blocks apart. The closest approach is about five blocks, and they are further apart than that most places. I don't think there are too many people who can easily walk to either line.
While were on this subject, why was the Intervale Ave. station rebuilt after it was burned in 1989 when it's so close to the Simpson St. station?
The locals in the area wanted it. It's good to have especially since the uptown and downtown platforms are connected to each other through the station beneath the el. I miss a stop or the train bypasses a station, I can get off at Intervale and turn around in the opposite direction.
-Stef
Did it have this feature before or was it added in the reconstruction? If the latter, it would have been better to do this at another stop.
Intervale Ave./163rd St. station had the crossunder feature before it was rebuilt as the new Intervale Ave. station. The reason is that it is built over a low point in the terrain. The tracks stay level, but the ground under them dips. So Intervale Ave. station is higher above ground level than other stations on the line, leaving more room for the crossunder. The other station like this is East Tremont Ave. And Intervale Ave. just happens to be midway (in terms of station count) between 149th St./Grand Concourse and East Tremont Ave. stations - a crossover or crossunder every fourth station along that stretch.
The problem isn't how close the lines are to each other. The problem is that some areas are too far from the subway.
If the lines were draw out better, many bronx residence wouldn't have this problem.
Good example... The J on Jamaica Avenue, and the A on Liberty Avenue. They are about 10 blocks from each other. Although the options are somewhat limited, passengers don't have to travel no more than 5 blocks to reach a subway station.
The 2/5 could've run up 3rd Avenue from 149th Street until 163rd Street. Then, it will turn up Boston Road until Southern Blvd following the existing route.
Meanwhile, the #4 could swing over to Ogden Avenue into University Avenue from 161st Street. As a result, passengers living in the far west bronx no longer need to walk a great distance to access a subway line.
N Broadway Line
"Fantasy -- this line is number one in my book to be torn down: it is a contract#1 el. It would be replaced by a 3 track subway under Boston Road until the point where the current line intesects it. That way, it would be further from duplicated the #6, and closer to the riders marooned by the loss of the 3rd Avenue el."
Agree.
N Bwy lcl
I totally agree with Chris R. In order to decrease confusion, it is necessary to switch the northern terminals between #2 and #5 to keep service simple. In this way you don't have to add a #10 or another to further confuse the passengers.
Chaohwa
It's not necessary to switch terminals for the 2 and 5. Just don't run 5 trains along White Plains Road anymore. That will end the confusion right there.
And it will piss off the riders who use those special trains. The White Plains Rd. line has always had some sort of Lexington Ave. service.
So make the 10 a Lex Thru Express. What is so confusing about that. People can read notices can t they about change of services, and if the don t that is their fault. 8-West Side Thru Exp, 10-Lex Thru Exp rush hours only
No, 12 or 13 are reserved for the West Side. 8 is the Pelham exp.
Weekdays
2 Bronx Local / 7th Ave Exp / Brooklyn Lcl to Flatbush
2 Brooklyn Lcl / 7th Ave Exp / Bronx Lcl to E241st
5 Bronx Thru Exp (5am - 1pm) / Lex Ave Exp / Brooklyn Exp to Flatbush
[Bronx Express from E241st to E149th St]
5 Brooklyn Exp / Lex Ave Exp / Bronx Thru Exp (1pm - 9pm)to E241st
[Bronx Express from E149th St to E241st]
10 Bronx Lcl / Lex Ave Lcl / Brooklyn Exp to New Lots
10 Brooklyn Exp / Lex Ave Lcl / Bronx Lcl to Dyre Ave
**********************************************
Weekends
2 Service same as Weekday
5 service same as weekday except no Bronx Express.
10 service same as Weekday.
The Bronx Express from 241 will make express stops at 241st Street, Gun Hill Rd, E180th Street, E149th Street.
For every 2 train that leaves its northern terminal at E241st, a 5 will follow.
This is real simplistic and everyone could adapt within a month.
Frank D
The 2 express is fine if all 5's are local (White Plains or Dyre).
N Broadway Local
But see this will definetly confuse people who are used to seeing a green 5 coming down to manhattan on the middle track. This is all so fun, maybe we need to sit in on the NYCTA (MTA) board meetings when they discuss this.
Frank D
Either way is fine. Just keep one express and the other local (2 or 5), so no one becomes confuse.
N Broadway Line
Just cut back some of the #4's to compensate the extra #5's. Meanwhile, the #2's could go express all the way to 241st Street during or in reverse rush hours.
N Broadway Local
Why was it changed in the first place?
According to the Dec 1999 info provided to the mta board this
was done due to switching problems at 180th st. Also in the same
agenda the on time terminal roll outs show that the 2 and 5 lines
had the lowest on-time performance under 90%. With bronx terminals
at 241st St. 238th St and Dyre Ave and three out of every thirty
trains departing significantly late it's little wonder they have
switching problems down the line.
I agree with you. The best thing to meet new service requirements is to switch the terminals between #2 and #5. It is like back to the old days.
The new #2 train runs between Dyre to Flatbush at all times. The new #5 train runs
(1) between E241 and Flatbush with Bronx Express during rush hours.
(2) between E241 and Bowling Green during middays, evenings and weekends.
(3) between E241 and E180 during nights.
That would simplify the services.
Man! It's like back to the future!
Chaohwa
That's my idea as well, but with expanded express #5 service, running into Manhattan as late as noon, and running to E241st. St. as early as 2 PM.
Yeah, I guess that would make more since, I still would like the 5 Express to continue running express to Nereid. Plus the idea of having the the 5 run Express all day would be great too.
FrankD
I am surprised to hear this, but it may make things move quicker through E 180th St. Assuming White Plains Rd. trains switch to/from the center track north of the point where Dyre Ave. trains join the line (switches now in place do support this) then there will be no more need for one train to wait for another before entering E. 180th St. southbound or leaving it northbound. Dyre and White Plains trains (2 or 5) can pull into 180th St. together and leave together.
I think this is a good idea. Yes, it means less service to local stations in the South Bronx, but it means more express service for passengers north of 180th. And it means one-seat express service for west side riders, something they have never had before.
I agree with the change also. It does mean a service cut for the South Bronx. On the other hand, the #6 train is just a couple of blocks away, with 12 trains per hour. And the ride from 241st is too long.
I like the new change too. The #2 is just too slow the way it currently is. And having to wait for a #5 express to cross in front of the 2 is ridiculous. Why didn't #2 Bronx Express service happen sooner? Finally some improvement to the #2.
So all that is happening is the 5 to Dyre will be the local and the 2 and the 5 to White Plains will be the express? When is this effective? Sounds confusing to me.
trains from 241 or 238 will run express from 180 to 149 and 3
Dyre av trains will run local bet 180 and 149 and 3 av
====
Peak Hour direction
Might I suggest adjusting the frequency of trains on the Dyre and White Plains line if this pattern is to take place? I mean, with the new pattern, switching movements are reduced and the trains on both lines get to move out of the East faster. There shouldn't be a great amount of congestion with the reduction in delays at the junction between the lines. However, there should be an aadjustment in frequency so South Bronx Riders aren't inconvenienced in anyway. 7 trains on the Dyre Line and 12 trains on the White Plains line are available every hour. Why not increase the Dyre Line by 2 trains and decrease the White Plains Line by 2 trains? The result would be 9 trains running every hour out of Dyre and 10 trains running every hour out of 238 and 241 Sts.
-Stef
The #5 is better as express because the route to midtown Manhattan is much quicker. Meanwhile the 2 should stay local like it is.
Something must change on the heyway of the #5. Many times, 3/4 #4 comes into the station before a #5 (during evening rush hours). Also, the 2 seems to run more often making the #5 express useless.
N Broadway Local
The 5 line may be a shorter trip to midtown, but it's NOT faster than taking the #2. Overcrowding slows the Lexington Ave. line so much that it's worth it to use the West side IRT. If I lived in the Bronx and I wanted to get to Fulton St, I'd take the 2.
That's why the 2 should be the express. I take the 2 because it is more frequent. Running it express speeds it up on the way to Manhattan.
I happened to live on the Dyre line and Work on Park Avenue. THIS PLAN STINKS!!! Shame on the New York City Transit Authority for this switch. Now I can expect to add 15 extra minutes to my trip.
Wrong. Going local from Dyre Ave to E180th St. will only cost you 5 minutes. If that is too much for you, get off at E180th and take an express.
According to the #5 schedule from Sept. 1998, the last local #5 in the morning takes 13 minutes to go from E. 180th St. to 149th St. (6:04 to 6:17). The first express takes 8 minutes (6:16 to 6:24). Difference: 5 minutes. Certainly not 15.
Funny they were not more specific as to which station was meant by "149th St." But it doesn't matter if we are talking about the time difference only.
The MTA really could care less about both it's workers, and riders.
They love to cut service, even though they said there was a surplus. E.Virgil Conway is a damn lying fool!
The more and more I hear about MTA New York City Transit, the less I want to be involved with it.
It's one screwed up agency, with workers who will strand NYC riders possibly, and management that doesn't have a clue on how to run a transit system, NYC is in great shape.
Makes me wonder if I want to live the rest of my life in this place, or move to a nicer, more well organized city like Montreal, Toronto, Tokyo, or Hong Kong. At least HK's transit system works most of the time!
The MTA is certainly screwed up, but it's the union which will strand riders. The MTA is not ordering a lockout tonight.
When is this supposed to take effect?
If there is a strike will the 63rd st. connection be halted.Also,why do they store subway cars on the express track from 169 St. Hillisde Ave. line to 75th Ave. on the Queens Blvd. line during weekends.Thanks
Don't know about the first question, but as for the second one: there is not enough room for them in Jamaica Yard.
What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for a subway line to be designated a Shuttle?
A shuttle is a line that does only a fraction of the regular route. Let's use the B train as an example. It runs from CI to Bedford Park Blvd, 145 Street, or 21 Street (Queensbridge) during the day. Between 12 and 6 AM, it goes between CI and 36 Street, shuttling WE passengers from the WE line to services to Manhattan. Shuttles also connect 2 mainlines. The Franklin connects the Brighton and Fulton (8 Ave), the Rockway Shuttle connects Rockway Park to the A train to Manhattan, and the 42 Street Shuttle connects the 2 IRT mainlines.
Perhaps it could be defined based on the amount of time it takes to go from one end of the line to the other.
I don't have any schedules handy (and I don't feel like playing the MTA website "Hit stop at just the right time and we'll let you see the schedule" game) but I'd guess that the longest "shuttle" runs are the B and Queensbridge shuttles (neither probably takes more than 20 minutes).
Compare those times to the shortest "non-shuttle" runs -- off the top of my head I think it's the G train (maybe 30 minutes from Smith-9th to Court Square).
Could that work, or are my time guesses all wet?
Chuck
"and I don't feel like playing the MTA website "Hit stop at just the right time and we'll let you see the schedule" game"
I can get them through Lynx. No redirect.
ANy info on this would be greatly appreciated:
My mother is a member of the United Federation of Teachers. Just a short while ago my mother's friend, the local UFT rep at her school called her up and said that the city is prepared to fine members of ANY municipal union if they do not show up for work on Wednesday if the TWU strikes. She said that all city employees who do not show up will be reguarded as sympathy strikers and would be fined 2 days pay for every one day of lost work. My mother's friend said that she was told this by her son, who is a union rep for DC 37. He also told her that school principals have been sent letters about this earlier today by the Board of Education, as part of their own contingency lans should the TWU strike. Can ANYONE confirm this? It sounds bogus to me, as there is no legal standing to fine a member of another union just because he/she cannot get to work becuase the trains and busses aren't running. It does sound a lot like a rumor designed to scare other people into supporting the TWU. However, she isn't sure.
Any info would be appreciated.
That sounds like the typical abuse as per the opinion of Rudy Guiliani. I would recommend that there is NO COMMENT from anyone on this site to which, if any unions will participate.
I haven't heard anything like that. It would be a big mistake for the Mayor to take that approach -- he'd just piss people off.
If he is willing to piss people off, he can just shut city agencies down (except police, fire, correction and sanitation) since no one can get to work, and lay people off. As for those agencies, they all live in the suburbs and drive anyway.
A more sensible plan would be to require workers to come in on the weekend and take two days off during the week, to cut traffic, or require workers to work at home.
I told my mother to go with her friend (the UFT rep at their school) and DEMAND to see this in writing. If it isn't there it's bogus.
Guiliani wouldn't be able to do this anyway. Sine UFT members have a contract, they cannot strike, thereby negating any fines under the Taylor Law. And this would piss too many people off. The last thing Guiliani needs now is something to unify all of the municipal unions behind a cause.
And Rudy is running for Senator, How many city employees and their families will vote for him them. Senator Clinton will be a shew in.
We have a meeting today from our bosses who will tell us what is required of us as city employees. REMEMBER the Board of Education is a non mayrol agency and is not subject to the mayor's whims.
There is a rumor here that they will not approve sick or vacation time if we don't come in and we will be docked cash pay but only for the day. I will know more in the afternoon and I am not a teacher.
I also work for the Board of Education in a non-pedagogical, i.e. administrative position. So far, no proclamations have been made by any manager as far as what to do tomorrow.
I remember that during the notorious blizzard of January 7-8, 1996, we were closed down for two days(Rudy tried to make us use our PERSONAL time for them or get docked, but the unions defeated it). Unofficial word is we're expected to make an effort to get in, but penalties for lateness will be waived.
>>but penalties for lateness will be waived.
Nope not for my Divsion (a support div of the Board) we have a memo from the Exec Director:
All Administrative and Managerial employees will be required to report to their regular work location during this emergancy. No absensces due to transportation difficulties will be excused... employees will allow extra time for travel. A seperate memorandum from the Division of Human Resources will provide futher information regarding time and leave policy durning this emergancy.
Still waiting for that memo.
The policy seems to be "volunatry" unpaid furlough. Could save the city a lot of money, I guess.
This might be what my mother was talking about. But I don't think that the city would fine other union members like they would TWU members. But not allowing sick or personal time to be taken during the strike is understandable. Many city employees can use this as an excuse to stay home.
(Excuse to stay home).
The Mayor closed the schools. Perhaps he expects my five and seven year olds to walk the five miles each way with me.
Politicos, high level bureacrats, and members of certain unions get to park wherever they want for free. They wouldn't be caught dead on the subway. So no wonder they think eveyone can just drive.
True, but if they allow personal/sick days to be used during the strike, how does the city function? Nobody would even bother showing up.
In the short run, the only people who have to show up for the city to function are sanitation, police, fire, correction, and teachers. All those folks live in the suburbs, drive to work, and park where they please. It ain't fair. At least you can require them to show up, and not the rest of us.
Larry, I agree. I work for a city agency, yet live in the city and are required to get to work come hell or high water.
The city pays me half what a non-government agency pays my wife, who has similar skills and educational background. She'd just as soon see me move elsewhere. I told my boss in no uncertain terms, if someone has to stay home for childcare reasons, its me. The marketplace says, NYC loses.
Um, excuse me, but my mother works for the Board of Education, and belongs to UFT. She has no car, and relies on the ((((BUS)))) to get to/from work. Luckily, she has a friend who will drive her back and forth. Otherwise I would have had to do it, and I work nights and sleep during the early part of the day.
[In the short run, the only people who have to show up for the city to function are sanitation, police, fire, correction, and teachers. All those folks live in the suburbs, drive to work, and park where they
please. It ain't fair. At least you can require them to show up, and not the rest of us.]
If things were really desparate, you could keep the city functioning with a lot fewer workers than might be expected. Sanitation pickups could be reduced and street sweeping cancelled; some firehouses could be closed, though with increased response times; Riker's Island could be kept on lockdown status, reducing the number of corrections officers needed; the NYPD could vastly reduce if not eliminate detective and other non-patrol functions; and last but not least, the schools could be closed. But would anyone really want that? Hardly.
Hey, if other unions want to walk off in sympathy to the TWU's cause, so be it. They'd pay the same price as the TWU will. However, I dont think it's fair to penalize a municipal worker as a "sympathy striker" merely because he/she can't get to work becuase of the lack of mass transit. You wanna fine 'em, then prove it.
Well, I'll publicly give credit to one association, only because they were on the news at 11 on channel four. The taxi commision stated that they will relax rules and allow drivers to carry multiple passengers at the same time with a two dollar surcharge for each additional. The taxi driver's association spokesperson stated that under no circumstance will her drivers cross the picket line, they will limit their cabs to one hail per trip.
Yeah right. Taxi drivers will profit big time from
a transit strike and will cram as many fares as they
can in their cabs.
They will be sitting in traffic with 4 fares in the cab. Do they get waiting time x4??? I don't think so.
I was driving a yellow cab during the '80 strike and because of the traffic I made less than normal.
I see that R142 and R142A are due in next weekend. Anyone know what line they are going to, becasue i would love to ride on one of them..i hope its the Q though or the D
Folks only the R142As WILL BE IN NEXT WEEK. NOTHING about the (R142s bombardiers) Has been mentioned as of this time. The kawasuckis will begin testing soon. Lets wait and see what happens. Ok?
From what I understand, these R-142’s and R-142A’s are supposed to be IRT [A Division] cars.
"i hope its the Q though or the D"
I hope you like stepping over large gaps when boarding, trains too short for the platforms, and trains that are not governed by the signals and can crash around at will.
Why don't you start looking at the number lines instead?
If there is a strike what exactly would happen at 12:01am. Would all trains in operation just stop at the next station, discharge and that's it. Would the train continue it's run until a terminal or yard? What happens if it does but there are no workers at the yard to receive it?
Yeah we were asking the same question. I mean, say you're a T/O from Harlem and you're driving the Far Rockaway shuttle when the strike begins. Do you just discharge the train and hoof it home?
I want to know how this BMT Standards #2299 got into accident? I look up the list of accident & i found no information about BMT Standards #2299. Here is the pictures of BMT Standards #2299 & look like Canarsie Yard or Pitkin Yard.
Peace Out
David Meaney
Wasn't this the head motor of a train laid up on the center track at Eighth Avenue on the 14 St-Eastern District-Canarsie line, late 1950's or early 1960's ?
Hand brakes weren't set, air leaked off; train rolled onto the interlocking then derailed on a trailing point switch and whacked a wall ?
Looks like the car was photographed at Canarsie yard. I remember seeing it there during the early 1960's.
(Now to start some fireworks, with tongue firmly planted in cheek:)
Weren't these cars purchased by the Brooklyn RAPID Transit ?
So why ya callin' them "BMT" cars ?
The Board of Transportation came after the BMT. Why not call them
"BOT" cars ? Then, the NYCTA stumbled onto the scene; why not call
them ... well, you get the picture. What happened to accuracy ?
Since these have always been associated with BMT lines; rarely, if ever, venturing into IND territory, we generally refer to them as "BMT Standards".
Looks like the wall may have gotten the worst of it in this case. See how the damage is limited only to the softer body parts. Look at the sill line - straight as an arrow - indicating that the frame withstood the blow. That damage looks repairable.
BMT Standards - TOUGH AS NAILS. Imagine what would have happened had this been a post-war car, or even worse, a modern-day (post-1972) stainless steel Tin Can. You'd have had another #5282.
Wayne
<< Imagine what would have happened had this been a post-war car >>
... such as the R-32 that "bumped against" the mouth of the Malbone Street tunnel entrance. Wasn't it cut up on the spot ?
They HAD to cut #3669 into two sections because her frame was bent at a 10-degree angle. I believe they hauled her out by crane and flatbed truck. Yes, that is a similar circumstance to that which befell the BMT Standard. A similar fate befell R33 #8884 north of President Street in 1997 - he was disassembled on the spot as well. LAHT steel and well-made stainless steel equipment won't fall apart in a side impact crash like R44s and R62s have done.
Wayne
The only time the standards were on the IND is when the connection to the 60th Street Tunnel and the IND Queens Line was opened in 55 and they ran the Brighton Local to Forest Hills Weekdays.
AND - a select handful of them managed to see occasional service on the "KK" line. I saw one there in late 1968, northbound at Bway-Lafayette.
Wayne
I once (around 1960) noted a BMT Standard with route "GG Local" and destination "Smith-9th Sts" on the roll signs, but I never saw them run on the GG (now G), and I don't know how many of the Standards had these indications. Did they ever run on the GG? They did share yard space with the GG in Queens.
(By the way, never ask anyone how they "noted" things on subway car roll signs.)
-- Ed Sachs
The Standards never did run on the GG. HOwever during the summer of 1966 the car fleet maintained by the IND Jamaica Yard was experiencing massive breakdowns due to deferred maintenance.
As usual it fell to the BMT to make up for the IND's shortcomings. 32 R-16's were transferred to the GG and given additional roll sign readings for that service. To compensate for the transfer of the R-16's a number of the redoubtable Standards were pulled off the scrap line and placed back in revenue service. The original plan may have been to send the Standards to the IND and some may have been given "GG" roll sign reading for that service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wasn't it true that some of those rebuilt BMT standards were still rolling along so well that there was some thought given to scrapping some of the R-1/9s and keeping the standards instead?
BTW, how did the situation in Jamaica Yard finally pan out? That was when the R-38s were being delivered, IIRC. Were the troublesome R-1/9s simply retired, or were they eventually fixed up somehow? I remember reading an earlier post which stated those 32 R-16s were returned to the BMT in early 1967.
Some of the oldest and mungiest R-1s and R-4s actually began dying off around the same time as the R38 and R40 were arriving. The remaining R-1s were banished to the "CC", with some running on the "AA" and even on the "BB" (pre-Chrystie) and "B" (post-Chrystie).
Wayne
Didn't Jamaica Yard have mostly R-6s and R-7s? Or was that later on?
Jamaica Yard (up to 1970 or so) had R-6, R-7 (lower numbers) and some R-4 cars (higher numbers, like 8xx). The R-4s were gone from Jamaica Yard by 1971. By 1973, when I was riding Jamaica Yard stock regularly, they were all R-6 and R-7s. R16, Slant R40, R40M, SOME R42 (very high 4900-series; these were eventually gone to Eastern Division) and R44 were all mixed in as well.
Wayne
Sounds like a parts department nightmare, especially with the mainteance problems at that time.
Based on what happened in 1966, with the R-1/9s dropping like flies in Jamaica Yard, it sounds as if the R-38s were initially assigned to the E and F lines out of necessity and not political wrangling. Was there a similar story with the slant R-40s, or did Queens riders start demanding that the E and F lines get the newest rolling stock afterwards?
12/16/99
"a number of redoubtable standards were pulled off the scrap line and placed back in revenue service".
BMT LINES, are you reading this? Ahh those BMT Standards, Venerable with a capital "V". Just goes to show you that because of their age that they could have run a few more years. Unfortunately they were old,un air conditioned and not stainless steel.
Bill Newkirk
Unfortunately they were old,un air conditioned and not stainless steel.
I wouldn't have them any other way.
How often did you ride them. They were hot, stuffy, crowded, and a lot of oldtimeers never bathed, and stank
How often did you ride them. They were hot, stuffy, crowded, and a lot of oldtimeers never bathed, and stank
All the subways were hot, stuffy and overcrowded - BMT, IRT and IND. smelly bums didn't necessarily gravitate toward the A/B's either. they attacked the freash air (if you would call it that!) at random. Anyway, up to age 13, I pretty much had solid A/B's on my home line (except for the occasional rush hour R-16 or R-11), which was the 14th St. Line in Manhattan. I lived in Stuyvesant Town and First Ave. was my staton. I moved to Queens shortly before Chrystie St. opened. Then Woodhaven Blvd. became my home station. Getting onto another thread, I lived in that location from 1967-1980. There was no Slattery Plaza then either. If there ever was a Slattery Plaza, it must have been when the line was first built. I don't know what kind of station signs there are at Woodhaven Blvd. now, but while I lived there, there was never any indication that the Queens Center Mall was right upstairs, and that was built in the early 1970's.
They partially re-did the Woodhaven Boulevard station a few years back. These are the current state of affairs:
1) New white tile installed. Black "Woodhaven" captions have been covered over.
2) Cerulean Blue tile band remains. I-Beams remain blue.
3) Tablets referring to "Slattery Plaza" remain.
4) Artwork installed in mezzanine.
5) General rehabilitation of mezzanine and platform floor surfaces.
6) Flourescent bare-bulb lighting replaced with shaded flourescent.
Wayne
They partially re-did the Woodhaven Boulevard station a few years back. These are the current state of affairs:
1) New white tile installed. Black "Woodhaven" captions have been covered over.
2) Cerulean Blue tile band remains. I-Beams remain blue.
3) Tablets referring to "Slattery Plaza" remain.
4) Artwork installed in mezzanine.
5) General rehabilitation of mezzanine and platform floor surfaces.
6) Flourescent bare-bulb lighting replaced with shaded flourescent.
Wayne
Thanks for the info. Very interesting. Any photos I can pull up on the Internet?
I rode them every Saturday on the Canarsie from 1967 until they left the scene in 1969. Given my negative attitude towards them in those days, I put up with them. They never stunk, and didn't feel uncomfortably warm. My ears did take in the sounds they gave off. Their doors opened and closed smoothly and quietly, without the air sounds associated with the R-1/9s and R-10s. A good analogy to their door speed can be had on some R-44s which have slow doors. Once in a while, a door leaf wouldn't be regulated properly and would whip open and slam shut. Their air compressors and bull and pinion gears sounded the same as on the IND old timers. They would go, "tcchhhhhhhh" just as the train came to a full stop, without the accompanying "hsssssss" as heard on the R-1/9s. I thought they were a bit quieter than the R-1/9s, but that could be because BMT trackage had rails spiked to crossties set in ballast as opposed to the IND's ties-in-concrete roadbed. On one or two occasions, the storm door of the first car wouldn't stay locked, and would be held in place by a 2x6 jammed diagonally across the door against the handle. I'll bet they don't allow that today!
I'll bet if the overhead fans were still being used on the system, OSHA would be down there it a heartbeat to demand the MTA put wire covers over them so no one can stick their hand up and get it cut off (which as we all know happened thousands of times over the course of the 70 years in which overhead fans were used on the system)
I rode them every Saturday on the Canarsie from 1967 until they left the scene in 1969. Given my negative attitude towards them in those days, I put up with them. They never stunk, and didn't feel uncomfortably warm. My ears did take in the sounds they gave off. Their doors opened and closed smoothly and quietly, without the air sounds associated with the R-1/9s and R-10s. A good analogy to their door speed can be had on some R-44s which have slow doors. Once in a while, a door leaf wouldn't be regulated properly and would whip open and slam shut.
The Rebuilts had slower, more gentle doors. What you described as whipping open and slamming shut was characteristic of the Unrebuilts.
I won't argue, since only the rebuilt standards were still around for the most part by the late 60s; however, what I saw was one door leaf in one set of doors whipping open and slamming shut, while the other leaf in that same set would open and close slowly, the way I remember those doors. I didn't see this very often, BTW.
P. S. Even with one leaf behaving in the manner I described, the doors on the R-10s were still faster.
I won't argue, since only the rebuilt standards were still around for the most part by the late 60s; however, what I saw was one door leaf in one set of doors whipping open and slamming shut, while the other leaf in that same set would open and close slowly, the way I remember those doors. I didn't see this very often, BTW.
That is very odd. From what I saw on the Standards, the doors were either slow or quick, not half and half. That must have been a problem that needed repair. One thing I used to see once in a while on the Rebuilts was both doors of a set not functioning, and sometimes it was the middle set (where the conductor's buttons were).
From
Now when I think about it, maybe slow is not the right word to describe the doors on the BMT standards. They certainly weren't sluggish, that's for sure. Rather, they seemed to normally open and close at about the same rate of speed as the doors on the R-27s and R-32s. Since they were wider on the standards, it took a bit longer for them to open and close than on newer cars.
Since I never rode on the Triplexes, I have no idea as to what their door speed was like.
They were only single doors if I remember correctly on the Triplex, like the IRT Hi/Lo Volts
They were only single doors if I remember correctly on the Triplex, like the IRT Hi/Lo Volts
Yes - Single leaf doors. 6019 during pre-museum days. This is how I remember the D-Types - sooty black with number plates.
From
Nice picture. They look almost green.
And is that early grafitti at the end of 6019?
--Mark
Nice picture. They look almost green.
And is that early grafitti at the end of 6019?
--Mark
Yes, it's graffiti 1960's style - a little bit of chalk once in a blue moon on a subway car. If you look closely at the pic (that one is on nycsubway.org) you will see that it says "fu-k you". The cars weren't green. They were a grimy black. I don't know if it was the result of lack of washing and steel dust built up on the cars, or what. Who knows? Maybe they were green. The Standards had the same appearance, grimy black with number plates. If you remember the R-1/9's, they had the same appearance - grimy black, even though they were a very dark green.
From
Most of the olive drab equipment (R-16s, R-21s, R-22s, R-26, R-27s, R-28s, and R-30s) also took on a grimy flat black appearance after a while. There is a photo of Concourse Yard in New York (City) Subway Cars taken in 1964 which has an IRT train among a sea of R-1/9s with an olive drab R-17 in the middle of the consist. I don't think any R-17s were ever painted olive green; they came from St. Louis wearing a maroon finish. Unless that particular car just plain got so filthy it didn't look maroon anymore...
In the case of the R-1/9s, the grime covered over the "City of New York" lettering on their sides.
Unless that particular car just plain got so filthy it didn't look maroon anymore...
that was probably the reason. It was probably the reason for the Standards and Triplexes taking on the same appearance. They were probably brown, under all that grime and steel dust.
From
I get a kick out of that photo of 2778 in Subway Cars of the BMT. It's sitting diagonally on a station platform, and the station appears to have sustained more damage than 2778 itself. The caption beneath the photo says the car tried to be both a local and an express at the same time.
The BMT standards had to be the toughest subway cars New York has ever seen. If they had been used in Money Train instead of the R-30s, the money train itself probably would have gotten smashed up instead of the other way around.
How about the Low-V as one tough train?
CarlM.
The BMT Steels (Standards were heavier and bigger then the IRT Hi or Lo Volts
[ he BMT Steels (Standards) were heavier and bigger then the IRT Hi or Lo Volts ]
And the Triplexes were even heavier.
-- Ed Sachs
They sure were. Woe to anything struck by a Triplex!
Compared to the BMT standards, the Triplexes were heavier, but not by much in terms of gross weight. One Triplex unit weighed between 103 and 106 tons. Two BMT standards, the equivalent of one Triplex, weighed 95 to 99 tons. It was the weight per axle which prevented the Triplexes from operating over the old elevated section of the Jamaica line above Fulton St. Otherwise, they had no problems on the Dual Contracts elevated structures.
NOT! To wit, the Times Square wreck of 1928, where one trailer was as badly damaged as R62 #1437 was, also the rear-ender on the El up at 230th and Broadway - the first car of the rear train was leveled for a distance of 25 feet. Lo-Vs - They were pretty lightweight stuff for carbon steel cars.
Wayne
The bodies of the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs can be compared to a gondola freight car. There wasn't much from the windows up. The BMT standards had bodies designed as steel boxes. Subway Cars of the BMT goes into detail about this design; it mentions the use of pressed steel. Had a BMT standard ever collided with a Hi-V or Lo-V, it probably wouldn't been much of a contest.
Steve; First the Standard would have to catch up to the Lo-V or the Hi-V.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That would be more likely than the modern equivalent -- an R-68 catching up to an R-62.
12/16/99
[First the standard would have to catch up with the Lo-V or Hi-V]
Hey Steve! There is only so much trackage in the NYCTA, sooner or later the Low-V will greet a bumping block and pause. When that BMT Standard catches up, C R A S H !!!
Bill Newkirk
It would be more like, CRRUUNNNNNCHHHH!! KA-BOOOOMMM!!
Not unless,of course,it runs into a Triplex enroute...now THATS a crash!!!
In the caseof a Standard vs. a Triplex, I think tey might have bounced off each other!
No, that's an EARTHQUAKE.
Wayne :o>
12/18/99
A collision with a B-Type and D-Type would show up on seismographs on the west coast !!
Bill Newkirk
A collision between a BMT Standard and a Lo-V should have been a Mash, with nothing but bits of metal and wicker sticking out from under the undamaged underside of The Pressed Steel Car Company's great Goliath.
BTW if you want an example of a similar contest (albeit with different equipment), the October 30, 1972 IC Wreck in Chicago featured a train of 65-ton Pressed Steel coaches (1926 vintage) vs. a frying-pan-thin St. Louis Car Co. Bilevel. It was a pity, such a terrible loss of life.
Wayne
I know about that one. The 1973 Americana Annual has a graphic photo of it, and Readers Digest had an article about it. Two young women were pinned beneath the wreckage, and everything had to be peeled away before they could be rescued.
The old South Shore cars were just as massive as those old IC coaches. You can't mess with the laws of physics.
Of course, depending on the car number of the BMT standard, it could have been an ACF product. Pressed Steel built the last few hundred standards as well as all of those other behemoths, the Triplexes.
Let's just say that a Lo-V wouldn't have fared any better in a collision with a Triplex.
I still remember your post from a few months ago about a fantasy heavyweight bout between a Triplex and a pair of BMT standards. Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier all over again.
You're right! The bulk (no pun intended) of the BMT Standards WERE of ACF manufacture.
I've ridden on the LIRR Bilevels (Kawasaki, 1998 stock) on a few occasions, on both levels. Every time I ride one I'm reminded of the IC crash and can't help noticing similarities between the LIRR and IC bilevel cars, especially in the seating arrangements. The LIRR cars have more ergonomic seats but basically, it's the same stuff. I wonder just how crashproof those bilevels are. They look like rolling bread-boxes.
Wayne
How about NYM standards, as they were technically owned
by the New York Municipal Railway Co.
<< How about NYM standards, as they were technically owned by the New York Municipal Railway Co. >>
Precisely my point: "standards" is a railfan designation, not anything actually used by the BRT, BMT, etc.
Wasn't the initial design for these "67-foot cars" copied from the Boston subway ? If so, they are copies of B.E.R. "Standards" !
I lived next to a retired motorman who began working on the B.R.T. in 1910. (He retired in 1955.) He told me the cars were referred to as "steels" or "67-footers" up to about 1922. After the car door controls were rewired and linkbars were installed to create "A", "B", etc. units, they were referred to as "AB's".
True, they "lived" under B.R.T. rule for nine years (1915-1924), and with the B.M.T. for sixteen years (1924-1940), but, in MY mind, they'll always be B.R.T. cars.
... to each his own ...
You are correct in that "Standard" was not a popular name
for the cars within the BRT/BMT. As you said, "steels"
would have been the initial name, to contrast the cars with
the wooden fleet that had existed up to that point. AB
was a retronym from the 1920s after the then-BMT picked up
the letter fad with A,B,C and D units.
There are some references in Electric Railway Journal to the
"new standard steel" cars for the BRT subway.
As for the Boston tunnels, maybe Todd Glickman can comment
on the similarity or lack thereof to the cambridge and east
boston cars of the period.
My son has to commute about 90 miles to and from our home in Pennsyl-
vania, to N.Y.C. for his college internship. He has been off this past
week. (he commutes by, ugh, bus). What is the latest lowdown on the
strike question? Thanks.
No real news. Deadline midnight tomarrow.
You can see the alternate plans of the city at http://www.nyclink.org which brings you to the CITY's home page (better than typeing in http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/ I always forget the order).
My plans for tommorrow, wake up, turn on tv, if strike, turn off TV roll over and go back to bed.
We've all argued on here, and I've called the TA workers strike certain words that perhaps are a bit extreme, such as the word terrorism. If the strike only lasts one to two days, hopefully, the damage shouldn't be that large. Because I realize that weather can cause interruptions of our transit system (such as snow, ice, and flood). I still don't want a strike to happen, but the strike is a result in of what is happening to blue collar workers in this city.
Salary does not keep up with the cost of living, which has rose astronomically in the past few years as NYC "boomed".
The problem is, that our MTA subway and bus workers have not gotten most of the money from our boom. Also left out are many other blue collar, middle income workers across the city, and the many low wage
workers, many of whom are immigrants who work in the most horrible conditions.
The richest people, those at the top income brackets, like our city and MTA leaders are making 30% more, which is alot more because of their huge salary. It is not unfair that TA workers get a raise of near that amount, since it is only fair workers share in the wealth of the MTA.
The media does not mention exactly why TA workers are angry, trying to dodge the real issues. Why? Because the same issues that affect the TA workers affect alot of us. Most jobs don't give that much more to most workers to compensate for the high cost of living here. Instead all our money winds up with wealthy politicians, cronies, and corporate banks. That ridiculous fee to withdraw money from ATM's is a good example of that.
While I don't support shutting down the city's transit system, I am beginning to understand why so many workers are angry. Driving a bus and operating a train require alot of responsibility, and are full of stress. Considering the importance of the job, the workers deserve much more than what they get.
But when other people who make much more than you take credit, then add 30% to their already bloated salary, that would get me very angry.
While so many people of this city suffer, our mayor's wife goes shopping at Roosevelt Field with a 10 car security force, buying fancy goods at stores like Nordstrom.
The wealthy gain more while everyone else gets less (after expenses), and I for one am sick of it. And unfortunately with so much anger, striking is forced in a large part by the arrogance of the MTA, and the unwillingness of the media to listen to how the workers feel.
Lets just hope that a strike is averted for the many working people in this city (including transit workers), and if it comes to a strike, that it will be brief but get the message across to the MTA.
Good luck to everyone, and pray that the city keeps moving......
The MTA missed a real opportunity a year ago. When its finances improved, it could have rewarded the TWU with a bonus raise for increasing productivity and agreeing to givebacks when needed. That would have bought goodwill, much more than the same amount of money today. Look back: I said so at the time. It's just sensible management to reward good behavior.
It is clear from the postings that a lot of this strike is about personal offenses taken over the years, and internal union politics. Personal dislike is hard to negotiate.
It's just sensible management to reward good behavior.
Yes, its good sensible management. But, when was the last time you saw good sensible management practiced in any workplace? Most of the time, good behavior goes unrewarded. You only hear from your supervisor when you screw up, or when they want to harass you. Its called positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement. Most private companies and government agencies practice negative reinforcement. Just ask The Transportation Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46. He'll tell you all about the negative reinforcement dished out to TA employees by management.
Is it any wonder your average New Yorker despises the TWU? Here's a reason why:
Tim Schermerhorn, a leader of a dissident faction of the union called New Directions, said any penalties "are a part of a strike, and people are willing to make sacrifices to advance." Really. Does that mean holding a city of over 10 million hostage, with over 3.5 million commuters that depend upon the transit system for their jobs? No. As usual, this as**ole couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself and his cronies and driving up the cost of doing business in NY seems to be his game.
If a strike occurs and one person loses their life because a caregiver cannot get to the hospital, this man should be jailed for murder. If the city loses one penny of economic revenue because this stupid as**ole has only his own interests at heart and not the whole city's (which would include his future as well", he should be stripped of his job and benefits immediately and given a crimial record for theft. Then let's see him try and make it in the real world.
I'll tell you this. If any of our group loses one dollar of revenue because of these people, we will fight them in court tooth and nail and recover all lost monies: wages, time spent on jobs, etc. The city will have their say and so will we. People like Mr. Schermerhorn are nothing more than brainless, low-class maggots who will try and strip everything they can out of the system regardless of cost. Their time will come.
I do not support New Directions or their intellectually challanged spokesperson but your message also lacks credibility. Who is this WE you are talking about (or do you have a mouse in your pocket?)
Oh, I see. It's ok for the city to screw the transit workers, but it NOT ok for then to screw the city back. I can't believe the transit workers have the NERVE to disrupt the entire city and all the IMPORTANT work being done there. They should just crawl back in their tunnels, shut up and take what they are given, after all they LUCKY to have such a GOOD job.
I am sick and tired of you pompus jerks comming in here and bashing the transit workers. Who do you think keeps this planet running? It's not you or those fat cats down on Wall Street. If it wasn't for the truck drivers, transit workers, technitions, repair crews, train engineers and janitors we'd all be living in caves. Believe it or not they are the ones with the important jobs and they should be given they respect and dignity they deserve. If you won't give it to them then maybe you should see what life without their dilligent efforts is like. Maybe if you put you talent for being an pain-in-the-ass towards something good like writing letters to the MTA and telling them to treat the workers fairly we wouldn't be having a strike in the first place.
Right On, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Thank you Jersey Mike. That should put a lid on some of the more anit-transit worker rhetoric that seems to be permeating this site.
Doug aka BMTman
Naah, the jerks will always shoot their mouths off any chance they get. Anywhere. The Web is just convienent.
Brochures available this morning at Penn Station detail the LIRR's contingency plans for a transit strike. These can be summarized as follows:
* Rush-hour access to Penn Station will be controlled. Riders must line up at specific locations _outside_ the station depending on their destinations and must have tickets before boarding.
* Shuttle trains will run between Jamaica and Penn Station between 5am and 9pm. Shuttles will run every 20 minutes and will stop at Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and Woodside. As with Penn Station, access to the shuttle-served stations will be controlled and limited to ticker holders (note: the brochure isn't clear on this point, but presumably there will be special lines for ticket purchase).
* Shuttle trains will run between Little Neck and Penn Station, including Shea Stadium for park 'n' ride, but only during off-peak hours. During peak hours, Port Washington and Great Neck trains will bypass Little Neck and Douglaston, stop at Bayside (where there'll be controlled access), and then run express to Penn Station).
* Several stations will be closed completely during morning rush hour, 5am to 9:30am - Auburndale, Bellerose, Broadway, Douglaston, East NY, Flushing Main Street, Little Neck, Locust Manor, Murray Hill, St. Albans, Queens Village, Rosedale and Shea Stadium (note that the ones on the PW line will have special off-peak shuttles).
* Controlled access will be imposed and advance fare purchase will be required at Flatbush Avenue, Far Rockaway, Floral Park, Great Neck, Laurelton, Nostrand Avenue, Rockville Centre and Valley Stream, in addition to those already mentioned.
* "a number of" rush-hour trains from Nassau and Suffolk will be cancelled or combined to free up equipment for the Jamaica shuttles. Alternative service and added stops will be made available. No details are given in the brochure, and riders are advised to listed to station announcements.
Note: there was talk earlier of special Flatbush Avenue - Jamaica shuttle service. There's nothing in the brochure about it.
I'm not crazy about the idea of lining up outside of Penn. (Let's hope for nice weather) Here's an idea. How about stopping all ticket sales and only allow people with monthly and weekly tickets into Penn or Jamaica.
The LIRR is normally operating at or above capacity. How can they be expected to handle any extra people ? I'm not too concerned about getting into Manhattan, but going home is looking pretty bad.
"I'm not crazy about the idea of lining up outside of Penn. (Let's hope for nice weather) Here's an idea. How about stopping all
ticket sales and only allow people with monthly and weekly tickets into Penn or Jamaica."
Restricting access to Penn and Jamaica to only monthly and weekly tickets would run counter to the goal of utilizing the LIRR for both regular commuters and intra-city commuters.
The LIRR is going to have much higher demand from stations such as Laurelton and Hollis as well as the stations along the Port Washington line, as many of these commuters now take a bus/subway connection.
Chuck
[The LIRR is going to have much higher demand from stations such as Laurelton and Hollis as well as the stations along the Port
Washington line, as many of these commuters now take a bus/subway connection.]
Hollis riders will be out of luck, as the station will have no rush-hour service. Same for the Queens stations on the PW line except for Bayside. Laurelton, as well as Bayside and several other stations, will be subject to crowd control measures. How that'll work out in practice is yet to be seen, but I suspect it'll be a nightmare trying to board trains.
Is Hollis on the list of closed stations? (It wasn't in your original post -- not a complaint, I really appreciate your effort in retyping the info. It wasn't on the LIRR website).
Re: the nightmare trying to board. It sounds like that's what the restricted access is trying to prevent. They'll probably only allow a certain number of people to go to the platform. By having all of southeastern Queens make their way to Laurelton, they can better judge passenger volume and make adjustments on the fly. If their is super-heavy volume, they can have some of the Babylon branch express trains stop at Laurelton.
Hey, maybe they'll even have that dual mode from Speonk stop there. When was the last time there was a direct train from Speonk to Laurelton?
It's interesting that there will be no Main line service in Eastern Queens. Looking at the rest of the plan, I'd have guessed that Queens Village would have been open as well.
Of course, if the injunction holds up and the union members respect it this all goes into the files for use at a later date.
Thanks again, Peter, for transcribing all that info.
Chuck
[Is Hollis on the list of closed stations? (It wasn't in your original post -- not a complaint, I really appreciate your effort in retyping the info. It wasn't on the LIRR website).]
Glad I could help. Yes, Hollis is on the closed list, no service from 5am to 9:30am.
The LIRR had station attendents handing out a brochure that states that there will not be any stops made within city-limits on their morning/evening rush hour trains.
Off-peak trains will make stops in Queens and Brooklyn. This screws the city-dwelling commuter who may live near an LIRR station. It's not fair, but then again, the LIRR doesn't want to inconvience their normal Nassau & Suffolk ridership with "crush-hour" crowding from the outer borough commuters.
BTW, their will be a flat-rate charge of $3.00 (one-way) within City limits for the duration of the strike.
Doug aka BMTman
Ah...
The LIRR is trying to show City residents the same high level of concern it exhibits to its normal commuters.
Welcome to the club, Doug ;-)
But, seriously, many LIRR trains already have standees, which they're not equipped for. The LIRR simply does not have the capacity (either right-of-way or car equipment) to handle even a small portion of subway riders who might be displaced by a subway/bus strike.
As it is, I would expect a large number of Nassau-Suffolk-Queens drivers to switch to the LIRR because of road problems. These are the (in)famous snowbirds who usally drive but pack the LIRR trains whenever there's a snowflake in sight.
If the railroad were to give people the impression it could handle additional crowds, I thknk they would simply grind to a halt. As it is, if I were a Queens resident, I'd be figuring how to get to Jamaica station.
The RR could run additional trains from Belmont Park, utilizing the big parking lot, but then where would they go? There are no slots at Penn ... if they ran to Brooklyn, do you think people would be willing to hike over Brooklyn Bridge?
One thing the LIRR could do is run much more frequent non-rush service, and have business adjust their starting hours.
"One thing the LIRR could do is run much more frequent non-rush service, and have business adjust their starting hours."
They are doing this on the Port Wash branch, with trains every 15 minutes off peak. During peak hours, it's get thyself to Bayside, Jamaica or Laurelton.
Chuck
Could they get NJT to terminate more trains at Penn Station: Newark as to free up more slots in Penn Station: New York? Also could they run FL-9 or DM-30 hauled passenger trains over the Hell Gate on the freight track and then over the Oak Point connecting track to connect with the NYC main at Melrose and then continue on into GCT. It probably won't happen, but if they had had their act together could they have cleared the line and gone ahead with this round-about system?
[As it is, I would expect a large number of Nassau-Suffolk-Queens drivers to switch to the LIRR because of road problems. These are the (in)famous snowbirds who usally drive but pack the LIRR trains whenever there's a snowflake in sight.]
One way around that would be to limit Nassau and Suffolk boarding to people with monthly or weekly tickets. That would be a hardship to many "innocent" people, of course, and enforcement would be a nightmare, but it would free up some capacity for Queens riders.
if they ran to Brooklyn, do you think people would be willing to hike over Brooklyn Bridge?
Yes. I and countless others walked over the Brooklyn Bridge during the 1980 strike. The pedestrian walkway on the BB was wall-to-wall with people displaced from the subway. I and a co-worker drove to Red Hook (the only place we could get a parking spot) from Queens. We walked from Red Hook to the BB, then over the bridge. Sure, I think LIRR riders would walk over the BB, especially if they work in Lower Manhattan. Its a lot less of a walk to the Wall St. area than Penn Station is.
>>>>This screws the city-dwelling commuter
who may live near an LIRR station. It's not fair, but then again, the LIRR doesn't want to
inconvience their normal Nassau & Suffolk ridership with "crush-hour" crowding from the
outer borough commuters. <<<
It's an ongoing LIRR policy to slight the stations within the city limits in favor of the higher income folks who live in Nassau and Suffolk.
Conditions on Port Washington Branch stations like Murray Hill and Broadway are sloppy at best and dangerous at worst, with crumbling staircases and platforms.
Of course commuters depending on these stations are first to suffer under an emergency plan. City riders be damned indeed...
Well I just shudder to think how Flushing will be. What the hell are all those 7 train commuters going to do, being denied LIRR service at rush hours in Flushing?
Observations on the LIRR's plan.
Overall, it seems pretty well thought out. I'm not sure how you restrict Penn access to ticket holders when the ticket purchase areas are inside, but perhaps they're only talking about restricting platform access?
It sounds like they'll be using fewer on-board personnel to check tickets during the rush hour. This makes sense, given the crowding that can be expected. I imagine that some of the ticket collectors who are normally on-board will be reassigned to the restricted access stations, but I think there would be more collectors available than there are restricted entry points (even considering the need for multiple checkers at many of the restricted access stations). I wonder if the LIRR is expecting some degree of sympathy flu among it's staff tommorrow.
Interesting that they are closing the Bellerose station during the AM rush. It's in Nassau County, and although it is a short walk from Queens, most of the commuters there are Nassau County residents.
Chuck
[I'm not sure how you restrict Penn access to ticket holders when the ticket purchase areas are inside, but perhaps they're only talking about restricting platform access?]
People needing to buy tickets will have to enter through the 34th Street entrance. As far as I can tell, they'll then have to leave the station and proceed to the appropriate line-up area to board their trains.
These line-up areas are as follows:
Seventh Avenue entrance - shuttle trains to Jamaica.
Subway entrance at SE corner of 8th Avenue and 33rd Street - Hicksville, Huntington, Pt. Jefferson, Oyster Bay, West Hempstead and Far Rockaway.
Amtrak entrance at 8th Avenue and 33rd Street - Ronkonkoma and Pt. Washington.
Taxi area under MSG between 7th and 8th avenues - Babylon, Montauk, Long Beach and Hempstead.
[Note: there was talk earlier of special Flatbush Avenue - Jamaica shuttle service. There's nothing in the brochure about it.]
You said rush hour trains will skip E. NY. So there must be something special planned in the works otherwise there would be no reason to skip it.
Here is what should happen. Trains starting at the extreme end of each line should do only about 1/2 of the route and run express to Penn or GCT (LIRR AND MN, respectivly). The stations not served by expresses would be served by locals starting at the last stop express stations make. The station halfway between the terminals would be serves by both local and express. Locals would leave 3-5 minutes after each express heading to NY, heading away, locals would arrive 3-5 minutes before the expresses leave. The express gets half the cars, the local gets the other half. For example, the Guinea Pig Line has 13 stops. Here is how they'd be served:
Avenue A-EXP
Avenue B-EXP
Avenue C-EXP
Avenue D-EXP
Avenue E-EXP
Avenue F-ALL (LCL leaves 3-5 min after each express IB, arrives 3-5 min before each express OB)
Avenue G-LCL
Avenue H-LCL
Avenue I-LCL
Avenue J-LCL
Avenue K-LCL
Avenue L-LCL
New York City-ALL
>>* Several stations will be closed completely during morning rush hour, 5am to 9:30am -
Auburndale, Bellerose, Broadway, Douglaston, East NY, Flushing Main Street, Little Neck, Locust
Manor, Murray Hill, St. Albans, Queens Village, Rosedale and Shea Stadium (note that the ones
on the PW line will have special off-peak shuttles). <<<
This is an absolute disgrace. The LIRR is abandoning these stations between 5 and 9:30 in the event of a strike. I would have no recourse but car service from 159th St to Woodside. What genius devised this plan?
Does anyone know what the last days of service over the Manhattan Bridge to and from the Nassau St. loop was like and when did it end before the christie st. connection was opened???
Thanks.
There were about 5 4th Av. specials which ran over the bridge peak direction, and ran in West End Service reverse peak direction, and 5 Brighton specials that ran through tunnel, and in reverse peak direction, ran empty over the bridge.
The last day of service was Wed. 11-22-67, because Thurs. was Thanksgiving, and Friday they were reconfiguring the tracks on that side of the bridge.
Word around town is that transit personnel are calling in "breakdowns" when none exist. Is this for real???? I have been on train three times in the past week w/emergency brake pulled @ Wall Street, waited in Brooklyn for resuming of suspended Coney Island F service, waited for suspended A and C at Jay Street. This morning, trains were suspended b/w Chambers and W4th due to power outage. I am pushing my employers patience since I am late often due to train problems.
Yeah there sure have been a lot of train problems the past week. I was nailed by that A/C problem with the thrown switch. The Brighton was out yesterday.
What really concerns me is that this might go on indefinately even with an agreement.
I was thinking about this during my commute this morning. If I try and think about it from a TWU member's perspective (I'm not, so I could be wrong here), I'd want the transit system to run like clockwork today. Let the customer's last memory be one of how quick their commute was.
What would you rather have on Wednesday -- people saying "It took me 90 minutes to get to work today, but that's only a half-hour worse than yesterday with all those subway delays", or "It took me 90 minutes to get in, yesterday on the subway it took me only 30"?
Chuck
With some of the language used by several TWU members on Subtalk recently, the thought of some of them causing delays out of anger or frustration is certainly a possibility. If true, it should cease immediatly, and those who are caught doing it disciplined.
Far from ceasing, I expect subway sabotage to continue for some time, even AFTER a contract is signed. There will always be some malcontents. In the bitterness generated by this negotiation, they will continue to take action, and no one will turn them in. Moreover, any kid can pull a cord, and the TWU will get the blame, so expect some of that as well.
That maybe the case, but no one has the right to play with the lives of passengers on board a train. What would have happened if a train took an improper route and wound up colliding with another train? Lives lost, and lots of injuries. Would there be any remorse? Sabotage could be the worst thing to happen. You have a right to be unhappy with the injustices of the agency in question, you don't have a right to commit a crime against people simply because your angry.
-Stef
A dear friend in Atlanta was kind enough to get me a couple of WABCO 2000 calendars (one for me & one for my friend upstairs). To my great pleasure is a pair of R-33 Red Birds over the month of January. This year they have made the trivia test a little easier by identifing the city (previously you had to ID the city as well as the equipment).
Hopefuly our Traffic & Weather man was able to get one because October features a green member of the "T" family.
P.S. Todd, why is there a slash thru the "D" on the roll sign ?
P.P.S. Other systems that made it this year: NJTransit; LIRR; MARTA; METRA; Toronto; SEPTA; Long Beach (LRV); MARC & Amtrak. The cover has a few more amung the 12 small photos.
P.P.P.S. How do you get one of these ... I got the impression that my friend can't get anymore, but I recall last year that someone had a WEB site address for WABCO ... maybe he'll post it again. Good luck !
and a special thanks for this friend who remembered me.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T...
Unfortuanately I have not received a WABCO calendar. Maybe I can get one, though, since I'm (just recently) a stockholder! I owned a few shares of MK Rail, which just merged with WABCO.
To answer your question, the D with a red slash through it means that the trolley stops terminates short of its normal destination terminal. For example, the D/Riverside trolley normally runs from Riverside all the way through to Lechmere. However if it turns at Government Center, the red slash is placed through the letter to draw attention to that fact.
The other "slashed" route is E/Heath St.. The E line is "supposed" to run to Arborway. But it has been cut back to Heath Street since (I believe) 1987, with no sign of resuming its full length. That is due to NIMBYs and STINGYs.
P.S. This is my first post on the newly upgraded SubTalk server. We are all indebted to Dave for his efforts!
"For example, the D/Riverside trolley normally runs from Riverside all the way through to Lechmere. However if it turns at Government Center, the red slash is placed through the letter to draw attention to that fact."
The photo agrees with this: D / Government Center & the trolley is inbound since the other track says "Green Line - Outbound ...". The train is two artriculateds. (four cars). A four car trolley, now there's a sight !
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T, the red slash to indicate 'short turns' was common in the Capital Transit/D. C. Transit trolley operation. This sort of signage is another casualty of the (IMHO) lame electronic signs of the current era. Sadly they are also less legible to those of us with less than 20/20. BTW if you like two car sets on the T you should visit SF which regularly runs 2's and 3's in the MUNI Metro system.
Their web page is www.wabco-rail.com, but I don't see any mention of how to get a calendar.
Was smoking ever permitted on the subways? I am doing a school project on changes in smoking legislation in NYC.
As some of us experienced this past Saturday cleaning out the heaters of an R17 we found many a butt and burnt matches but I don't know the offical policy was made.
Arthur Miller's only novel, "Focus," published in 1945, dealt with wartime anti-Semitism. His key character is riding the Eighth Avenue subway through Queens when he notices an ad saying something like "Thoughtless patrons cause others discomfort by smoking," to which someone had written "Jew" pointing to a cartoon character--among others--depicted smoking. This suggests it has been banned for close to 55 years, if not longer.
My earliest memories of the subways and els goes back to WWII. There seemed to be a universal sign used on all lines. IIRC it was a metal sign with a white background and black printing, with a big NO in the upper left part of the sign. In slightly smaller letters were the words smoking and spitting. Apparently smoking and spitting were ranked together as crimes for the sign went on to refer to the penalties for being caught smoking or spitting. I think the sign was about 12 inches by 16 inches and at least one was posted in every station. A sign like that would probably make a neat collectible today.
You can see that sign in the transit museum.
I think I've seen the sign you're referring to. It also has "littering" in addition to smoking and spitting. On subway cars, in addition to those three no-nos in international symbols, "radio playing" is an addendum.
Yeah- but the riders cant read, dont understand pictures (or dont want to understand). If you tell them they look like "Huh?"
I have had cops around, I told the cops who told them to put it out and they did not and the cop walked away!
Or they think the rules don't pertain to them.
Any problems, please email/feedback.
-Dave
I've been able to get on subtalk at times this morning, then I can't and it seems to be giving me some strange instructions. I'll keep playing around with it until I get it straight. If you have any way to keep this from getting confusing I'd appreciate hearing from you.
Have been accessing this afternoon on a PowerMac 7200 @ 90Mhz, with a 33600 modem, without a problem. Actually, performance in terms of loading time for the page and messages seems to be improved.
Keep up the good work, Dave!
I'm seeing a bit of a speed bump from uha's campus network, the server kicks in quite a bit faster, but I'm still not getting above 10K/sec, though that's because of the lame off campus connection I have (T-1)
Useually in the late evening (3am), and towards the end of this week (Finals >:( ) traffic will lift on here (I know the bottleneck is getting off campus, on campus I can get 350K/sec between machines, even durring prime time), and I'll be able to see how much the transfer rates went up.
Anyway, from the middle of nowhere, in the state of confusion (Hartford, CT), I've noticed a jump in performance.
Thanks, Dave!!!
I did not find any difference, except my name and e mail address was missing, and the notes in the beginning. Who knows I am probably doing it wrong anyway
You aren't. It is happening to me too.
It is working well now. Thanks, Dave!
Chaohwa
The only problem I had was that it didn't recognize my cookie. Other than that, performance has improved, especially speed.
Good work, thanks.
Cookies are hostname based in this application (instead of domain based). So it of course wouldn't recognize you (which is why I posted a big PLEASE READ on the index page)
-Dave
Ohhhhhh I just read the "Please Read" part of the message, not the text after it.. Duh...
dave... what are the technincal specs of the two servers, www vs brighton? im talking processor/ram/hd/connection. also what os is each running. i was just wondering this.
laterz
blackdevl
"new" www: Sparc 20, 272 Meg Ram, 2x60 Mhz processors, shared T-1 connection, Solaris 7, Apache 1.3.9
"old" www: Sparc IPX, 64 Meg Ram, 1x40 Mhz processor (same connection), Solaris 2.6, Apache 1.3b6
brighton: Sparc 10, 208 Meg Ram, 2x60 Mhz processors, residential ADSL (1.6Mbit inbound, 90K outbound), Solaris 7, Apache 1.3b6
Lets not get into a "why don't you use a 450Mhz PIII". If you really want to know that or anything else speak to me in E-mail.
-Dave
Actually, it is rather amazing how fast computers run when they aren't using Windows. You don't NEED a 450 to do the job because of the operating system.
Pretty cool how much those computers that you listed can do. Technology is great, ain't it??
Thanks for all the hard work, Dave,
--Brandon
Amen to that! I'm on the road this week, accessing from a Toshiba laptop with a 266 PII running NT and a 56K dialup rather than my usual G3 with a 350 running MacOS and a cable modem. The performance increase is significant over last night. Can't wait to get home and see how much better the Mac does!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The speed of which SubTalk now runs via my WebTV terminal is noticably faster.
Any problems, please email/feedback.
-Dave
No problems. Everything is fine. Much faster. Even when things slow up, its still not like it used to be. With the new server, I haven't yet gotten the error message "The page cannot be displayed" on IE, like I did numerous times with the old server. This is definitely a major improvement. Thanks, Dave.
BTW, anyone having problems getting to SubTalk, just create a bookmark link with the URL http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. My History dosen't work anymore. I don't know what I've read! I liked the old brighton server. I could type "bright" into my URL bar and it would auto-complete it. Oh well. The page still takes a long time to start loading, but once it does loading it zips right along. I guess I'll have to spend some time re-visiting all the old messages so I can see what's new. Its not too great a loss because 2 weeks ago my history crashed because of all the Sub-Talking I had been doing. Serves me right for setting my links to expire after 90 days.
Why don't you set your preferences to reverse chronological? That way you could just remember what time you last read the messages, start from that time, and work your way up. I find it much easier than trying to follow the threaded index.
That's my prefered way to view the index. However, sometimes there isn't always a "NEW" sign next to the new posts. Usually, it's best to find your last post and work up.
Could it be that you are not reloading after posting a message? If you reload the site before you power off the "new" will appear on your next visit.
Here's what I do:
I have the system set to chronological, I just scroll down until the blue messages make way for the purples. I then read the blue and go downthread of that, hitting back one by one and catching the rest of the thread until I'm back to the index and go to the next blue. When I post, I return to the message to which I replied, reload the page, open my message and immediately leave. When I'm done reading, I read and see if there's more. I continue until nothing new appears on the reload. If there's a message I don't want to read, I load it anyway, unless there's too many of those, in which case I only make sure to load the highest one on the list (to make sure that the blue/purple line is set up properly). If I'm not done for the day, I just pick up where I left off. With the transition, I just opened my history and looked at the most recent message and clicked it, changed the brighton to www and opened the new index to find the purple link.
Yeah, but a lot of the mesages are crap and the main page takes a longer time to load so I just like clicking on the root message of an interesting thread and reading through all the new ones.
I hope you are not referring to mine. LOL
I've noticed increased performance with this whole site now. Maybe it's because my WebTV service was so slow to begin with ...
Hello out there. I hope I'm getting through. Sometimes new changes on a computer ID can be confusing. I hope this new system works out well. Well, here goes.
CNN is reporting a judge has issued a restraining order against the strike. There goes my scenario -- one or two day strike, followed by a restraining order and a cooling off period. Looks like no strike, or a long one.
It is already against the law for them to strike before this order.
What will this order do if they rank and file still walk??
Arrest the union leaders? Arrest every union member that does not show up to work?
I don't understand the order or why Rudy if want to get one other then to run for office.
The latest according to WCBS 880:
Rudy plans on fining individual members 25000 the first day and doubling each day thereafter and the union would be fined 1 MILLION the first day and doubling thereafter. CBS also said that Rudy plans on going after New Directions which "seems to be encouraging a strike" while the rest of the leadership is tellingf the members "to go to work"
On another front-IRT service was very bad a round 6-9 am- what happened? two big gaps, a 5 on the west side and then a 2 running local? also the A was running on the F from Jay to W 4. COngestion was very severe
In the interest of fairness to the Mayor, it should be pointed out that the injunction was sought by the New York State Attorney General, Eliot Spitzer, a Democrat. Although I'm sure he supports it, and may have even intiated it, the restraining order should not be considered a case of the Mayor waging a one-man war.
Chuck
Also being reported by the Washington Post. See:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/19991214/aponline122331_000.htm
A totally idiotic idea. All a restraining order'll do is harden the positions and make a settlement more difficult.
It will also increase the pressure on the union to take what it can get and be thankful. With the Taylor law, this restraining order, and a mayor who has a history of destroying anyone who pisses him off, I'd say the TWU negotiators better rethink their strategy.
OTOH, this could also create suck a bad feeling among transit workers that even if a strike is averted, the slowdowns we've seen in recent days might continue. And sabotage is certainly something to worry about. Perhaps the MTA can throw them a bone (cave on one minor issue completely, like the problems with assesing blame and discipline).
If a restraining order aint backed with force (police, military) it is nothing more than a useless piece of paper.
That useless piece of paper could bankrupt every member of the TWU. With 2 different restraining orders firmly in place, the TWU will be assauled from all sides should they strike. They will pay the city back for the mayor's contingency plans ($2. million already, and climbing), plus individual fines of $25,000 per day, every day for each striking individual. The union would also be liable for fines starting at $1 million a day. And this doesn't even take into consideration the Taylor law fines, which could be included into the fines as well. The union leadership is no stressing it's members don't publically use the word "strike" as negotiations continue. That fear, with the relative ease that both of the restraining orders were gotten should prove once and for all that a strike would be 10 times worse financially then simply accepting the terms on the table.
Remember, this is Guliani you're dealing with. Unlike Koch, he'll seek every dime of compensation for as long as it takes.
The lines are being drawn. The consequences have been laid out. Now the TWU has to make a decision.
The other thing is, the TWU doesn't have to agree to a contract it doesn't like. It can wait, along with all the other city unions, for a more favorable political climate. The cost of deferring raises would be far less than the fines.
The other thing is, the TWU doesn't have to agree to a contract it doesn't like. It can wait, along with all the other city unions, for a more favorable political climate. The cost of deferring raises would be far less than the fines.
That said, the fines discussed ($25,000) are so severe that after two days every memeber of the TWU would be better off quitting and moving out of state than paying. And then what would the TA do?
They'd still have to pay, even if they quit. But a mass resignation could cripple the system for months. However, there are thousands of New Yorkers who would gladly take their jobs.
Hmmm... what happened to the last union leader who suggested mass resignations?
Hey, I have an idea. Why don't YOU sign up to be a transit worker? After you get snapped out of your little fanticy world you can come back to SubTalk and listen to others like yourself voice their well though out opinions about your Union and your Professionalism. Because after your long, hard day of butting heads with management and the public its nice to be thanked/appriciated for your tireless efforts.
So your saying your tired of being stuck in a thankless job? Join the club. The rest of America is in the same boat.
And I'd gladly trade my job for an transit job right now.
Go ahead take the Test and be worked like a dog like the rest or us. By the Way when theres a Delay in Service your Lunch is gone.
I plan too. Eventually I'll be a member of this union. My opinions, however, will not change.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Chris a the saying goes "be careful what you wish for..."
I already live out of state in PA and the Good News is SEPTA is Hiring
That useless piece of paper could bankrupt every member of the TWU. With 2 different restraining orders firmly in place, the TWU will be assauled from all sides should they strike. They will pay the city back for the mayor's contingency plans ($2. million already, and climbing), plus individual fines of $25,000 per day, every day for each striking individual. The union would also be liable for fines starting at $1 million a day. And this doesn't even take into consideration the Taylor law fines, which could be included into the fines as well. The union leadership is no stressing it's members don't publically use the word "strike" as negotiations continue. That fear, with the relative ease that both of the restraining orders were gotten should prove once and for all that a strike would be 10 times worse financially then simply accepting the terms on the table.
Remember, this is Guliani you're dealing with. Unlike Koch, he'll seek every dime of compensation for as long as it takes.
The lines are being drawn. The consequences have been laid out. Now the TWU has to make a decision.
It might be possible to collect fines from the TWU as an entity, but it would be impossible to collect the kind of money they're talking about from individual TWU members. We're talking about $25,000 the first day. It would increase to another $50,000, the second day. Anyone on strike for 2 days would owe $75,000 in fines. How many people have that kind of money? What would they do if nobody pays? Jail them all? I would think not. Even if they did, then there would be nobody to run any trains or buses. It would be worse than the strike and last much longer, until a whole new crew of transit workers could be hired and trained. It could very well wind up like 1966 with TWU officials being jailed, but not the workers. I would think that the TWU still has the City and the MTA by the short hairs, even with the restraining order.
The injunction is also aimed at individual workers. Striking would put them in contempt of court, and yes, they certainly can be jailed. I doubt things would deteriorate so badly that this could happen.
You forget one thing Chris. If GHOULiani takes that hard a line against those workers, HILLARY is our next senator. No republican EVER won a major office without the support of union members. Rudy better satisfy himself with Taylor Law fines
Uh, just about every Republican in office in the United States today has won their election without the support of union members.
Wrong-- While almost no UNIONS endorse Republicans for other than local office, union MEMBERS are a key part of any winning Republican election strategy. Remember Reagan democrats?
It wouldn't be surprising to find that Reagan carried a plurality of union voters -- he won in landslides -- but they certainly weren't a defining.
It would be very surprising to find that any of Pataki, Whitman, Engler, Ridge, Riordan, any of the Bush family ever carried a majority of union members in any of their elections. Nor were they a key element in any of their election strategies.
The Republican mantra has been to push the downsizing of government. The overwhelming majority of union members are in the public sector. It simply doesn't make sense to imply that Republicans are being elected on the backs of union voters.
Chuck
Bull. Union members always lead towards pro-labor candidates, which are almost always Democrats. "Reagan" democrats were only noteworthy because they were a very rare exception.
Only 21% of the national workforce is unionized. Nationwide, they are rapidly becoming an insignificant power.
Yes my unions are taking my dues (closed shop) and giving it to Democrats. And the corporations I am part owner of (through mutual funds) and taking my profits and giving them to Republicans. And I never, ever vote for either. Makes me sike.
Unions are bastions of Democratic power. As a republican, he can fight them with no political cost. This struggle, being local to NYC, free's Guiliani's hand even more, as he has no shot of ever beating Hillary here.
....as he has no shot of ever beating Hillary here.
Why would the city dwellers vote for the carpetbagger instead of their own mayor for whom they voted twice?
Why would the city dwellers vote for the carpetbagger instead of their own mayor for whom they voted twice?
All Hillary Clinton is doing is using New York as a stepping stone to get what she's really after. She has no love for New York. What she wants is the Presidency. May Hillary Clinton never be elected to any public office, anywhere.
City dwellers may vote for Hillary because even those who like the job Giuliani does don't like him. They think he's a jerk. Of course, if they get to know Hillary, they may not like her either.
On reason to vote for Hillary: "the next Mayor of New York; Mark Green."
City dwellers may vote for Hillary because even those who like the job Giuliani does don't like him. They think he's a jerk. Of course, if they get to know Hillary, they may not like her either.
On reason to vote for Hillary: "the next Mayor of New York; Mark Green."
You obviousely aren't going to listen to me. Just do me one favor. Remember what I said, so you can kick yourself when you find out what you put into office. You obviousely didn't learn your lesson with Billy-Boy. Do you think his wife is any better? No, she's worse. She is more of a threat to this country than her husband is.
You hit the nail right on the head. When we elected Giulaini in 1993, (I also voted for him in 1989), the city was totally out of control. Crime was rampant, jobs were scarce, housing prices were in the toilet, the streets were a mess, etc. I had many a discussion with people that the city was unmanagable and would be one of the worst places to live in a few years.
I said what we need is someone to become mayor to "clean up the town". That is exactly what the mayor has done. Love him or hate him, the city is not the place it was in 1993. To get anything done in a place like New York you have to be tought and piss some people off. i believe that everything the mayor has done has been for the benefit of the people who live and work here. The ones crying have generally been those out for themselves. I personally don't care if he is a nice guy or not. Most people who are polled about the president think he is doing a good job, (I am not one of them), yet he is a dispicable person.
Ex-Mayor Koch thinks to be a great mayor, you have to be beloved by the people. Nonsense. He was far from beloved by all the people, and while he turned a few things around from the Lindsay-Beame disaster, he set the stage for the Dinkins fiasco.
We don't need carpet bagger Hillary who's only interest is herself. I would take not so nice guy Giulaini any day whose interest is in the people.
Hey Mark, right on! I couldn't believe the difference between the New York I saw in 1991 and the one I viewed this past summer. The difference was like Earth and Mars. No one tried to hassle me for money, the streets were clean, and the people I dealt with a real sense of purpose that their city was off on the right track. As I've said before, sometimes an outsider can see things more clearly because of the lapse in time between visits. The subways were also cleaner. That really struck me, and I didn't hear any of the motormen I talked to gripe about how the city sucked. I got that from all quarters in 1991. New York is the greatest city in the country and should set an example for the rest that is positive. I saw that this past summer.
Lets not get carried away here. In 1991 the economy was in the toilet. David Dinkins get some of the blame, but much of it had to do with information technology that suddenly made hundreds of thousands of jobs unnecessary. Dinkins failed to deal with the situation, but he didn't create it.
Today, the economy is up. Giuliani gets some of the credit, but not most of it. The good trends are continuations of good trends that occured during the 1980s -- more and more city neighborhoods are becomming acceptable to businesses and people with choices.
My concern is, given how good the economy is, what isn't happening:
1) The debt is up.
2) The infrastructure is not substantially improved.
3) Discriminatory business taxes (commercial rent tax, unincorporated business tax) are still on the books for new businesses, even as individual big corporations seem to get tax more and more tax break deals.
4) The public schools still stink, are underfuned, and are NOT getting better.
5) 600,000+ still on welfare, high unemployment.
6) Not enough services available within the city -- city residents spending money in the suburbs.
7) Low pay for city workers, recruitment problems, incompetant hires.
Life is good in much of the rest of the state, thanks to money collected here. Things should be better here (and in Nassau). Lets see what happens in the next recession.
You can't overestimate how much the 1987 stock market crash hurt this city. It destroyed the free spending ways of the financial aspect of the NYC economy, and had a domino effect upon the entire economy, especially in the service sector. It bottomed out in 1991. Remember those dark days when Dinkins was toying with the idea of shutting some hospials and eliminating nightime subway service?
And I must disagree with some of your assertions about this city as of today. City workers do not suffer from low pay (except teachers and cops), the city's infrastructure is in better shape today then it was when Koch took office, and the number of people on welfare, while unacceptably high, has gone down considerably, especially now that workfare has been institued. If Guiliani was this successful as president, they'd repeal the 24th Ammenmdment (that's the one limiting the president to 2 terms, right?) just for him.
(Dinkins considered shutting down hospitals and night subway service)
If only the recession had gone on a little longer (or if someone had forced the city to meet the state constitutional requirement of balancing its books), we could have gotten rid of a lot more waste.
As it is, people seem to have forgotten the bad old days pretty damn quicky. Borrow more? No problem, the city will have more tax revenues and fewer welfare recipiants in five years than today.
If I'd realize that making any comment at all on union members voting Republican or Democrat would have sent SubTalk into Hillary vs. Rudy XXIII, I never would have said anything (OK, probably not, sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut).
But as long as we're there, I'll pipe in (with the disclosure that I wouldn't vote for Mrs. Clinton even if you threatened to replace my apartment windows with the glass from the old LIRR diesel fleet). The entire idea of a Giuliani vs. Clinton (Rodham) race for the senate seems completely ego-driven. Clinton wants a stepping stone to even higher office (quick, name the last Senator to be a good president). Giuliani seems offended by the idea of Clinton being Senator from New York (I haven't ever heard him say why he'd want to be Senator).
What's really strange about is that neither has the makings of a great Senator. Giuliani is a leader (where he's leading things to is dependent on your opinion of his politics), not a compromiser. Clinton appears also to follow this style (given her lack of experience, it's tough to be certain -- but if the Health Care reform is any indicator she might even be more dictator than leader). Most great Senators are great compromisers and consensus-builders.
I wonder if Giuliani is waiting to see who GW Bush's VP choice is. If it's Pataki (I think that's becoming less and less likely), I think he'd rather be Governor of New York than Senator.
Chuck
Actually, I think he really wants to be Attorney General. He was born for that position. Considering what has been occupying that office since 1993, this country needs one badly.
Good call. I hadn't thought of that.
Chuck
It just a rumor I have heard, but it makes a lot of sense. Attorney General is a powerful position, which only has to answer to the president. If the president is W. he will most likely sit back and let Rudy do what he wants. If congress is too timid to go after Reno, they will never touch Rudy.
How about this as a likely scenario:
1: Hillary and Rudy both formally announce their candidacies
2: After a really nasty fight, Hillary edges Rudy while Bush wins the general election.
3: Bush then appoints Guiliani as attorney general.
4: Rudy then indicts Hillary, saying he is trying to cut the DC crime rate in half the same way he did in New York.
Knowing Rudy's feelings about getting back at his enemies, this sounds pretty logical to me. Plus it would make for an interesting next 24 to 30 months.
(Interesting next 24 to 30 months)
I'm sick of Rudy and Hillary already. Despite the importance of the Senate, to me it's a sideshow. Meanwhile, when it comes to voting for the state legislature, the worst group of SOBs anywhere in the country, we will get one bad choice. City residents will get to vote for a Democratic crook, while those elsewhere will get to vote for a Republican crook.
It would be much more fun than Monica vs. Linda Tripp.
J Lee: If New Yorkers elect Hillary they will have shown to be totally berift of any pride whatsoever. Thatthere isn't a native New Yorker that is qualified and that an outsider has to represent you demonstrates or will demonstrate why, thank God, you are no longer the number 1 state----or number two for that matter. A scenario like that would never happen in California or Texas. I hope for New York's sake that it doesn't.
Does Hilliary or Rudy ride the subway?
They must, otherwise this thread would be off-topic.
Her Highness rode the Broadway line (I think the N) last week.
Oh my God, did she have to ride on my favorite train? Nuts to her. She probably contaminated it and I can bet it will be one of the last times she rides a subway train of any kind. She's a limo with the windows up all the way.
Borrowing money is not as bad as many people think it is. The consequences of not borrowing money to meet expenses can actually be worse than the debt it creates. As long as Wall Street doesn't feel obligated to downgrade the city's bond rating, then they feel pretty secure in the ability of the city to pay it back. Until that happens, there's no need to worry about another 1975ish collapse. That happened because the city accumulated so much debt and it fudged it's books so much that no one would lend the city a dime.
"they'd repeal the 24th Ammenmdment"
Although I'm not sure if the citizens of the District of Columbia would be very happy with no longer being able to vote for the president.
The amendment you want is the 22nd.
Well after Prohibition my constitutional ammendment knowledge takes a severe nosedive ...
>>>4) The public schools still stink, are underfuned, and are NOT getting better. <<<
The schools are the dark underbelly of the Giuliani administration and a blot on his otherwise stellar record.
Here they go again...funding ballparks for the Mets' and Yanks' bush leaguers. Build some more schools and stock them with history textbooks that go past the Korean War...and pay teachers salaries that won't send them fleeing to the Island or Jersey.
Rudy and Pataki can underfund the schools and the TA because neither is directly in charge, and directly accontable. So much for the value of "insulating for politics."
Part of the reason why the independent boards and authorities were created in the first place.
Supposedly they were to be "beyond" the whims of whatever politician was in office and would be accountable to the public, but after finding out what a strong leader (Moses) could do with his own group or groups of public authorities, the past 30 years have seen weak leadership that can be controlled by whoever is either in City Hall or Albany, but still distanced enough to assure the mayor and/or governor can claim "no controlling legal authority," to quote a current political office holder.
See what happens whne you enforce quality of life laws. People laughed at the mayor when he went after public urinators, squeegee men and panhandlers. It has a trickle-down effect and the entire city benefits.
>>>No one tried to hassle me for
money, the streets were clean, and the people I dealt with a real sense of purpose that their city was
off on the right track. <<<
Unfortunately, Mark Green, Hillary, Rev Al, Rosie, Dave, and many, many NYC politicians think squeegee men, panhandlers, and a general sense of unease in NYC streets are a small price to pay to make sure the First Amendment is protected above all else. I fear that post Rudy, everything will slide back to where it was, with the possible nightmare scenario after 2001 of Green at City Hall and Hillary in the senate.
www.forgotten-ny.com
We can always move to Arkansas. LOL
That'ss not a very good idea. Green is an ambitious camera hog who only wants to advance to higher office. He'd also destroy most of what Guiliani has accomplished since 1994. I'd prefer Hevesi over Green any day.
I wouldn't mind her running for Congress or the Senate, but not from a state she never lived in, and has little knowledge of. If it was Arkansas (her home as Clintons wife) or Illinois (the state she was born in), I wouldn't be upset.
New York is hoplessly dominated by the left, which worships Hillary as a saint. Polls also show her with a commanding lead over Guiliani among city voters.
Why would the city dwellers vote for the carpetbagger instead of their own mayor for whom they voted twice?
Maybe they like Ferretts.
The injunction is also aimed at individual workers. Striking would put them in contempt of court, and yes, they certainly can be jailed. I doubt things would deteriorate so badly that this could happen.
They are not going to jail the workers for 2 reasons:
1. Hiring and training new staff would keep transit shut down much longer than any strike.
2. There's not enough jail space for the thousands that would be arrested.! Heck, they release violent criminals early, just to make room for the new ones. Even if they did have the jail space, could you imagine the expense of jailing those thousands of employees.?
so, what theoretically could be done, won't be done.
I said it was possible, not probable. I don't even think the city would pursue the $25,000 a day individual fine for each striking worker, as no precedent for this type of fine has been set. The Taylor Law fines are gonna hurt bad enough.
I said it was possible, not probable. I don't even think the city would pursue the $25,000 a day individual fine for each striking worker, as no precedent for this type of fine has been set. The Taylor Law fines are gonna hurt bad enough.
The Taylor law penalties are all they're going to get away with, unless a striking transit worker challenges the law in court and gets it thrown out.
The Tayor law has been challenegd many times, yet still stands. No challenge at this date would change that. And the restraining order that dictates a $1 million penalty levied against the union should it stike can be enforced. There is precedent for unions to be penalized financially for disobeying a court order that bars specific job actions.
The Tayor law has been challenegd many times, yet still stands. No challenge at this date would change that. And the restraining order that dictates a $1 million penalty levied against the union should it stike can be enforced. There is precedent for unions to be penalized financially for disobeying a court order that bars specific job actions.
The $1M penalty on the TWU as an entity, yes.
The$25K per day on individuals, no. They can try, but do you think they will be able to collect on it? Do you think they will be able to arrest all the strikers and put them in jail? No, No, a thousand times, NO! Anyway, we will see what we will see. Its less than 24 hours away. I hope they do strike. I hope it is not a long one. But even for one day, let them show management that they can't be trampled on. If the TWU caves in, it will be a major victory for the political cronies and a major defeat for the workers who will be treated even worse than they are now. Anyway, in 21 1/2 hours, we shall see.
When I use my camcorder to tape the Brighton line from a Q train, I saw a southbound R46 Q train running. My tape resolution is not good enough to identify the car numbers. What I saw first hand is the first four cars were 6100 series, and the last four ones were 5700 series.
I tried to catch that R46 Q line but in vain. Clearly it was back to where it should be-- F line!
Chaohwa
Getting away from all of the strike talk for a moment, I started to wonder how the new dual mode equipment is performing. I imagine they couldn't be performing worse than the prior version (FL-9's -- is that the right one ??) did.
Also, I remember hearing that passenger volume was relatively low (at least on the Speonk runs) during the first few days. (Probably from the lack of publicity by the LIRR -- it's easier to satisfy low expectations). Has it picked up? If it has, then there's a good chance that the use of dual mode's on the Patchogue/Speonk line can relieve some of the current crowding on the Ronkonkoma branch.
Chuck
[I remember hearing that passenger volume was relatively low (at least on the Speonk runs) during the first few days. (Probably from the lack of publicity by the LIRR -- it's easier to satisfy low expectations). Has it picked up? If it has, then there's a good chance that the use of dual mode's on the Patchogue/Speonk line can relieve some of the current crowding on the Ronkonkoma branch.]
I've taken a dual-mode from Patchogue a couple of times in the last few weeks, and on each occasion the train seemed full, or close to it, after Babylon.
There's been a fair amount of discussion of LIRR's contingency plans for a NYCTA strike. Are there any similar plans for Metro-North? If so, what are they?
I realize that MN doesn't overlap the subway as much as LIRR does, but the combined Harlem/New Haven line does run inbetween the B/D and the 2/5 lines, and people who usually take the 1/9 or the 4 could take the Hudson line if they had some means of getting to it. So MN is a viable alternative for at least some.
Anyone know?
No update on their web page but that does not mean anything...
Haven't seen or heard anything on Metro North. The Marble Hill station (Husdon line) almost directly underneath the 1 station at 225 street.
Also, Metro North already operates shuttle buses from the Riverdale area to the Spuyten Duyvil station. (the buses normally go to the Riverdale station, but road construction in the area has limited access). I don't know if they have the equipment to significantly increase that service.
Chuck
The MTA has just posted Official Stike Contingency Plans on their Web site. It includes sections for both LIRR and Metro-North. (Included are some neat maps of Jamaica & Penn Station!)
Based upon the response of the MTA server, they must be getting a LOT of hits right now.
An LIRR and MetroNorth section, eh? How about subway riders? Clearly, the MTA has NO plans to do ANYTHING for people living in Brooklyn.
Actually, Larry, there is a listing of alternate bus service, mostly provided by the "privates."
The strike threat is over, but I'll still put in my 40% of a nickel.
What CAN the MTA do with what they have? Have scabs operating the Franklin Avenue Shuttle or restore passenger service on the Bay Ridge line with stops at Bay Ridge, Parkville, Kowenhoven and East New York?
(What can the MTA do?)
Let me reprise what I believe the MTA should be able to do for the CITY, in case we end up in this situation again in three years.
Managers should be trained to operate trains and signals, and should practice by taking extra trains out evey few weeks. In the event of a strike the TA should be able to operate a truncated IRT service into and through Manhattan from transportation centers of the other boroughs: the Flushing line from Queensboro to Times Square, the 2/3 from 149th/the Hub to Grand Army Plaza, the 4/5 from 161st to Atlantic Avenue, the #1 from 137th to South Ferry, and the #6 from 138th to Brooklyn Bridge. Other managers should flood the platforms to keep people moving. If anyone pulls a cord, cops should be there to nab them, and managers should hand out postcards to help passengers file class-action lawsuits for their troubles.
This truncated network could bring 120,000 people per hour from the north, 30,000 people per hour from Queens, and 60,000 people from Brooklyn. It wouldn't be fun, but the city would survive.
For its part, the city should legalize all private vans that meet safety and insurance criteria. In the run up to a possible strike, the TLC should solicit the names, and check the driving records and backgrounds, of those who might want to operate additional vans, and solicit rental companies nationwide to bring vans to the city. It should set up staging areas where pre-qualified drivers rent vans. And it should designate major thoroughfares OUTSIDE MANHATTAN as van, bus, and emergency vehicle only streets. In Brooklyn, these would include 4th Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Eastern Parkway, and Bushwick Avenue.
The pitiful plan the city and MTA had to help city riders is proof that a) they didn't intend to provoke a strike or b) they just don't give a damn about the 50 percent who travel to Manhatatn by subway.
A while ago I heard about a book that dealt with families and such living underneath the NY subway. It's supposedly a true book written possibly by a grad student who spent a couple years going down beneath the streets in NY getting information about the world that these people have built for themselves. I have tried to find information about it but no one seems to have heard of it. Is there anyone who could provide me with additional information? I'm trying to give this to my dad for a Christmas present.
[A while ago I heard about a book that dealt with families and such living underneath the NY subway. It's supposedly a true book written possibly by a grad student who spent a couple years going down beneath the streets in NY getting information about the world that these people have built for themselves. I have tried to find information about it but no one seems to have heard of it. Is there anyone who could provide me with additional information? I'm trying to give this to my dad for a Christmas present]
_The Mole People_ by Jennifer Toth, written in 1993. It's still in print and should be available through Barnes & Noble or Amazon.
BUT - before you buy it, see www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/mole-people.html. It may change your mind.
Yeah, I think I even saw a TV special on this very subject on Channel 13 or somewhere else that dealt with homeless people who actually made "homes" inside old railroad tunnels and the like.
I recall they showcased one homeless guy -- I recall he was black -- who actually had a PhD, but due to some kind of psychological problems, wandered into a life of vagrancy and mental decay (I think the guy was shown to be quoting Shakespeare, and speaking like an educated person -- except he suffered from fear of living amongst the masses).
The other thing I remember was a homeless family (perhaps the same one in 'The Mole People') who had almost every luxury as a normal family: washer, dryer, color TV (they rigged electic power off of some Con Ed feeder cables). Except their "house" was some of the catacombs of Grand Central or the Penn Central westside tunnels.
It was an episode of 48 hours. I have it taped.
--Mark
Umm, what I MEANT to say that it was an epsiode of the CBS newsmagazine "48 hours", not an episode of a program that ran for 48 hours ... oh good grief :)
--Mark
Every time I try to go back to the main SubTalk menu after viewing a message, I get the following display:
Data Missing
This document resulted from a POST operation and has expired from the cache. If you wish you can repost the form data to recreate the document by pressing the reload button.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This never occurred until today, with the transfer back to the old server. I set my display preferences to "reverse threaded".
The "Post" operation is your selection of your preferences.
If you keep returning to that page (the result of a forms submission) you will be asked to repost the forms data. This is standard browser operation. Visit the URL via your bookmark again after setting your preferences and it should behave as you expect. (Actually, it's behaving as *I* expect-- you just probably don't remember the last time you had to update your preferences).
-Dave
Note: I was using the browser "back" button to return to the index. After posting the previous message, I tried using the "return to index" link instead, and it worked. What's more, after that the browser "back" button worked fine too. So it seems there is no serious problem. Folks, if you get the message I mentioned, just click on the "return to index" link once instead of using the "back" button, and the thing apparently will work fine after that.
Although it forgot my name between this message and the last one...
Never mind - Dave explained what was really going on!
Note: I was using the browser "back" button to return to the index. After posting the previous message, I tried using the "return to index" link instead, and it worked. What's more, after that the browser "back" button worked fine too. So it seems there is no serious problem. Folks, if you get the message I mentioned, just click on the "return to index" link once instead of using the "back" button, and the thing apparently will work fine after that.
Although it forgot my name between this message and the last one...
I use the back button on IE 90% of the time after I post, and I don't have this problem; not even with Dave's new server. Fact is, after I post this message, I'm going to click the back button.
If there's a strike, what happens to my montly E-Z Pass, will I get credit next month for all the days I was gipped out of this month???
Will the Union eventually have to reemburse Riders for fares lost???
Good question--------------------
Based on past history, I think the policy will be to reimburse commuter rail riders who have Metrocards, but not other Metrocard holders.
What past experience? Metrocard didn't exist in the last strike.
Why wouldn't a person holding a 7 day metro card with 4 days left on it as of Wednesday receive either a pro rated refund or a 4 day extension?
Chuck
They should and perhaps someday they will. As I stated in my previous post, as of 2 day, there is not provision being made to do that. I usually purchase a 30 day card, but this time around I opted for a $30 ($33 with the discount) card just in case.
Most likely, as this would fall under the umbrella of "lost services" ...
I heard on the radio this morning that there is currently no provision to reimburse 7 and 30 day card holders. I usually prefer the 30 day card, but I bought a regular $30 card just in case.
Could one of our SubTalk NYCT employee friends let us know if the system is on a regular weekday schedule on Friday, December 24? It's a Federal Holiday, so I have my doubts. I'll be in NYC that day, preparing for an XMAS weekend of Transit & Weather Together. So if by some chance it's a weekday schedule, it would be a great day to ride those elusive rush-hour expresses for your weekend warrior coming in from Boston. Hmmm... maybe even a SubTalk Field Trip???
Come to think about it, how about the LIRR? A dual-mode ride from Penn Station would be fun too!
On Friday Dec 24 and Sat Dec 25 Transit will Run a saturday Schedule and that also goes for New Years Eve and Day.
I found out the hard way not to rely on NYC Transit on a holiday. People just don't show up, trains and buses don't run, and you wait forever. And that's in a NORMAL year. WHO KNOWS. After X-mas 1988, we started renting cars -- we eventually bought one.
Not to show up on a Holiday would be rather stupid for any transit worker since they are losing 2 days pay. Prior to '88 the whole system was in rather bad straights, but now with a decade of improvements it is much more reliable.
Always a pleasure to hear your friendly voice early in the AM. As it was just a couple of weeks ago !
Mr t__:^)
I noticed many have been ragging on Alanta's MARTA system lately but
I would just like to remind everyone that the idea of value-stored transit cards was first implemented on MARTA. MARTA is also a pioneer in transit-oriented developement. Take a closer look. You might just be surprised.
The Future
Great effort as always, Dave.
Thanks!
Chuck Greene
Hey Dave: I got it straight after the second time around. Thanks God. I'd be lost if I couldn't log on to this site. Being way out here in California, it is mandatory that I keep up with you guys in order to know what's what in the NYC Subway System. I have learned a hell of a lot since I got on early this year and I have found that with this new configuration that my wait is shorter. Good job"
The unions are too selfish and the MTA is too cheap. It's amazing that people need to talk for days to come to decisions. If my brother and I have a disagreement on pizza toppings, we usually resolve it in five minutes. Both sides are acting like idiots. The workers deserve more pay. But, not that much. They should be realistic.
Train Buff Headquarters
This isn't about wages and working conditions anymore. Its about respect, and who is in charge, and anger, and grievences. It's much harder to split the differences on those things. And no one involved cares too much about the people who ride the trains. The situation is dire, and there will be damage even with a settlement.
Shame on anyone who would dare try to sabotage the subway system. I have my doubts as to whether it was union workers. It wouldn't surprise me if the city set everything up to make the union look bad. Whoever did it should be given jail time and a hefty fine. Anyone who would risk human lives for money deserves nothing less than a horribe death. Please forgive my hostility, but that's how I feel. All of us who ride the subway were at risk. Thank God for the safety devices that make the New York Subway System the greatest in the world!
Train Buff Headquarters
There was an incident at Canal and West Broadway where someone pulled an emergency power off switch, causing exensive delays on the A/C/E this morning. It's the kind of thing that only a transit worker could do, with knowledge of this switch's location and function.
Hardly....you'd think that knowing how to defeat Metrocard
is "the kind of thing only a transit worker could do", but in
fact lots of lay vandals know how. Same thing with the power
cutoff....attention K-Mart shoppers, today's blue light special is....
Defeating the Metrocard has financial incentives for the perpetrator. Pulling a power off switch only serves to cripple the system. It's simple logic to assume that it was a transit employee. They are the only group of people who have both the knowledge and motivation to do such a thing.
That's right and transit workers pull cords between the hours of 2:30 p.m. and 5 p.m. on a daily basis
Sabotage during labor strife is nothing new. Did they ever catch the people who sabotaged the automated train operating equipment being tested on the 42nd. St. shuttle in the late 50's?
Sometimes sabotage is conducted by management to make the workers look like the culprits. That is an old 'time tested' ploy too.
That's possible. But it's more likely that it was a disgruntled transit worker.
Speaking of K-Mart, does the one in Manhattan have blue-light specials?
I've been in there a few dozen times, but I've never seen one. I loved when they used to wheel out the blue light -- in college we'd see them rolling it out of the managers office and follow them over to see what was going on sale. We were that broke.
Off topic, but thanks for the memory.
Chuck
I was caught in the incident this morning along with thousands of commuters. It was a regrettible incident but was by no means extensive. It lasted roughly 17 minutes.
Do you realize how stupid that comment was? Anyone who reads Subtalk would know the location of that alarm box. I would say probably half the riding public know where they are and what they do.
I don't. Most lay people don't. Those who do need a motive. See where I'm going here ...
I see that you only like to read and respond to the controversial posts and be pro management yet you claim you want to be a transit worker. Just remember what I said before be careful what you ask for.
As far as motive you are starting to sound as paranoid as the mayor anything goes wrong "it's sabotage" The employees don't have to sabotage the system, the passengers do it themselves but of course the employees get the blame because "the cutomer is ALWAYS RIGHT".
Steve, can you explain how metal filings and syrup can be intoduced into a subway car's air brakes so the newspapers can say we did it again? That sounds like management BSing the public again. What happened at 239 Street yard, if you don't mind telling? Email if you do.
I don't mind saying but I honestly hadn't heard about that incident either officially or through the media. I can tell you that both can be introduced through the intake of the compressor, quite easily but there are things that will work much better. I will also say that not everything attributed to vandalism or sabotage, IN MY OPINION, has been such.
If the contract is not reached soon, I'll feel sorry for Steve at Coney Island. Steve will be spending his time fixing damaged trains.
The union workers will take their anger on the equipment. If they can't strike, they will damage the trains and buses. Like the person who tried to sabotage the switch on the A and C line.
Once a settlement is reached, things should cool off. Any transit worker caught causing slowdowns or sabotaging equipment should be fired immediatly.
How do we know that this sabotage is not being done by someone in a supervisory or management position? Those kinds of things have been done before to point blame on the workers.
Doug aka BMTman
I would only advocate it against those who are caught commiting slowdowns or sabotage, not for those who are suspected.
(Steve will be fixing trains).
Steve will get paid regardless. I feel sorry for me. Any damaged train he is fixing is a train I won't be able to ride. I see no way this doesn't start a downward spiral in the transit system.
I'm not sure what Steve we are referring to at Coney Island. I personally do not expect that vandalism will be rampant. There were several incidents of disruptive acts this AM (12/14) however. In any event, I don't think any managers will be fixing anything. In the event of a job action of any kind, we will have other duties.
The maps of the Bay Ridge and Manhattan Beach divisions generously made available by Bob Diamond are now on rapidtransit.net.
Many thanks to Paul for posting the maps. I enjoyed perusing them.
Having grown up in the Sheepshead Bay area, near Neck Rd. station of the Brighton line, I had always wondered why E. 18th St. was wider than the other side streets in the area. Earlier posts to this board concerning the Manhattan Beach Railway had indicated that the line had originally run along E. 18th St. The map which Paul has posted clinches it.
-- Ed Sachs
<< Having grown up in the Sheepshead Bay area, near Neck Rd. station
of the Brighton line, I had always wondered why E. 18th St. was
wider than the other side streets in the area. >>
Well, also having grown up in the Sheepshead Bay area, near Neck Rd.
station of the Brighton line, where, I might add, I still live,
I can tell you, with out a doubt, the wider street is East 17th,
NOT East 18th. East 17th is at least double the width of East 19th,
East 18th, East 16th and East 15th (from where I'm typing this).
If the map is accurate, (and I'm sure it is), then there has to be
ANOTHER reason East 17th was laid out at this width. Possibly an
additional wider, two-way street was planned between Coney Island
Avenue and Ocean Avenue. With the Brighton road centered between
C.I.A. and O.A., this could have been the best compromise at the time.
What say ye ?
YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN THIS EXCHANGE FROM NYC.TRANSIT:
Subject: SHERLOCKING SHEEPSHEAD BAY RACETRACK TRAIN TREASURES
From: "TENSION TECH, INC."
Date: Wed, 01 December 1999 12:58 AM EST
Message-id:
>> ON A RECENT TRANSIT SLEUTHING OUTING IN BROOKLYN, (MY HOBBY IS
>> MAPPING OUT REMNANTS OF RIGHTS OF WAY NO LONGER EXTANT, THIS
>> INCLUDES RR SIDINGS TOO) I CAME ACROSS A GATE THAT EVERY TIME I
>> TRIED TO GET INTO FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS TO EXPLORE, WAS LOCKED-
>> BUT NOT THIS TIME! IT IS THE OLD APPROACH TO THE SHEEPSHEAD BAY
>> RACETRACK TRANSITION TO GRADE LEVEL. "1907" IS CLEARLY ETCHED
>> INTO THE CONCRETE ON SOME SUPPORTS AND MY HANDY PROTRACTOR
>> GAVE ME A 7.25% SLOPE TO GRADE (YOU HAVE TO CLIME ABOUT 17 FEET
>> UP FROM A SWAMP TO MAKE THIS READING PROPERLY). QUITE A HIGH
>> NUMBER I THOUGHT. SO THE QUESTION IS, WHO OUT THERE IS FAMILIAR
>> (CAN YOU EMAIL ME BLUEPRINTS?) WITH ORIGINAL CONSTRUCTION
>> GRADIENTS. AND YES, I REALIZE THAT THE EARTH COULD HAVE SETTLED
>> SOME SINCE 1907, BUT AN OLD-TIMER I SPOKE TO SOME YEARS AGO TOLD
>> ME THAT HIS DAD WAS ON THIS WORK CREW AND HE WAS UNDER THE
>> IMPRESSION THAT THE PILLARS WERE SUNK QUITE DEEP (APPARENTLY SOIL
>> CONDITIONS WERE NOT THAT GREAT THEN EITHER). THE NUMBER SEEMS
>> HIGH FOR THE AREA, BUT MY NOTES SHOW THE ORIGINAL BROOKLYN
>> TERMINAL MARKET SIDINGS EXCEEDED EVEN THAT. BUT, AT LEAST THERE
>> IS AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT (PROPERTY DISPUTES WITH THE CITY), YET
>> KEEP IN MIND THE TRACK WAS IN SOUTHERN BROOKLYN. ALSO, DOES
>> ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE ELECRIFICATION STARTED AND STOPPED
>> JUST SOUTH OF NEPTUNE AVE. ON THE APPROACH TO CONEY ISLAND?
==================================================================
Subject: Re: SHERLOCKING SHEEPSHEAD BAY RACETRACK TRAIN TREASURES
From: boylanw@aol.com (BOYLANW)
Date: Wed, 01 December 1999 11:53 PM EST
Message-id: <19991201235344.01438.00000144@ng-fa1.aol.com>
>I CAME ACROSS A GATE THAT EVERY TIME I TRIED TO GET INTO FOR THE
>LAST 15 YEARS TO EXPLORE, WAS LOCKED- BUT NOT THIS TIME! IT IS THE
>OLD APPROACH TO THE SHEEPSHEAD BAY RACETRACK TRANSITION TO GRADE
>LEVEL. "1907" IS CLEARLY ETCHED INTO THE CONCRETE ON SOME SUPPORTS
>AND MY HANDY PROTRACTOR GAVE ME A 7.25% SLOPE TO GRADE
Uhh, I THINK you're looking at something else. I live ALONGSIDE the
racetrack ramp, and it begins just south of the Neck Road station.
The SB ramp is partially filled with ballast, the NB ramp is
completely filled with ballast. Stand at the intersecton of East 15
Street and Avenue "X" and look toward the right of way. You'll see a
short (50'-60') steel bridge: this is the "mouth" of the
now-completely-filled-in tunnel with which the SB elevated trains
negotiated to reach the racetrack terminal (which was located at
approx. Ocean Avenue and Avenue "X", now a "Staples" store.)
What you "found" are the concrete piers which carried the Brighton
trains from the embankment to the surface. This is south of Neptune
Avenue. The ever frugal B.R.T. jacked up the steelwork to maintain
the elevated grade and "filled in" the gap between the steel and the
tops of the original piers. Take note how the "fillers" become
increasingly larger as you walk towards Brighton Beach Ave. Also
note the additional steelwork supporting the express tracks:
it is of a much shallower dimension than the adjacent local track
structures. And while you're at it, take a hike to East 16 Street
and Gravesend Neck Road; see the two stairways to nowhere?
They once led to the Neck Road station of the L.I.R.R. Manhattan
Beach Division, which ran alongside the Brighton Line from the cut
south of Avenue "H" station to a terminal adjacent to today's
Corbin Street in Brighton Beach.
=================================================================
The piers found dated "1907" are from the end of the original Grade Crossing Elimination project of that era. The original Brighton Line terminal was at grade level across the street from the present Brighton Baths site, hence the ramps to grade level.
The current El from Neptune Av to Stilwell was built under the dual contracts about 1918 or 1920, closely following the alignment of the Seaview Railway trestle of the 1880's.
The frugal BRT did of course, use the 1907 piers, only a few years old by the time of the dual contracts, adding spacer blocks and shims to reach the correct level.
Before the grade crossing elimination, there was an interchange with the Neptune Av trolley, the other end of the bypass was at Cortelyou Rd (Av C), this permitted Flatbush Av trolleys to "cut off" and take riders to Coney Island during summer months.
In fact, while your out there again, take a look at the old LIRR water tower frame across the street from the 1907 piers, its embedded in a garage on E 14 st.
in the last 2 days, delays on the train lines..don't know if it was because of the "Rules" that conductors are following, but listen to these and let me know if true or not:
Tues 12/14-delay on switches sends "Q" Northbound during am rush operating via tunnel from Dekalb-Canal St-Express Canal-57th St-then normnal to 21st-Queensbridge, while the "B" makes it through without a problem.
Tues 12/14-train in emergency on high street holds "C" train in stationm for 15 minutes at height or rush hour(4:15-4:30 p.M).
If there is no strike, but a wildcat, what affect will this have on morning commute,,hope not too bad though
South bound F pulling into Lex Ave this evening around 630p. Train was already there, all electronic signs reading "Last Stop". Conductor said signs were not working. "Last Stop" was somewhat metaphorical, don't you all think?
Those electronic signs on the R44s and 46s are constantly reading "LAST STOP" when it obviously isn't; display the terminal from which the train is coming instead of going (Because the motorman forgot to reset it?); are completely blank; or just show complete gibberish, in the style of comic-strip cursing: #$*&@}%!!!.
I just saw a "Special Report" on ABC-TV that mentioned there was some kind of tentative agreement between management and the TWU.
Does anyone have any details?
Doug aka BMTman
I saw the report on NY1. It indicated that the union had come down to 5% per year for 3 years and the MTA had gone to 4%/year for 3 years, throwing some pension incentives in which would add the total to 14.3%. The agreement had to go out to the executive board of Local 100 of the TWU for ratification.
I just checked the new directions web site. NO DEAL YET- The NY 1 report was a rumor.
The TWU site prints the letter from James advising not to strike. clickiong a link shows the court order (and they also have to send it to all members via overnight mail.) The same notice had to be posted on the new directions site (and it is)
No deal is what I heard, and in any event I don't like the sound of the contract. Better to give a more modest raise in line with inflation -- 2 or 2 1/2 per year -- along with a big special bonus raise in exchange for past givebacks and productivity gains. That way, other unions would know the case they have to make.
Also, the way this bullshit could cause the economy to tank, why sign a four year deal? I would prefer a new negotiation every year, based on the conditions that year. What do those fat cat labor relations and union negotiators do the rest of the time anyway?
I'm curious, what "givebacks" has the union given before?
Ok guys and ladies let's start the list of givebacks for the "ALL KNOWING CHRIS"
20 YR. RETIREMENT
1 yr. to top pay now 3
% of money TA pays into pension
cuts in benefits
unlmited overtime
wage freezes just to name a few
Bi-weekly pay
Sick Control List
Minimum wage for first 40 hours in training
Co-Pay for GHI (health Insurance)
End of assists for busy booths
More to do in the booth (When I started we had two kinds of pre-encoded cards and now we have 4!, we now have a computer report to prepare along with the manual report)
Willie James just annnounced " NO DEAL". He said (on 880 am) that they were very close but "management backed off". CBS says a mediator has been called and even Rudy now expects a strike.
CBS says a mediator has been called and even Rudy now expects a strike.
A few minutes later, Rudy held a press conference saying that he did not expect a strike. Somehow i don't think he saw Willie's face as he stormed back into "work" after a briefing. Sounds like they were very close to a deal, but those plans failed, and now it's back to the drawing bored. Now I really hope I'm wrong about this,but Rudy seemed too optimistic at his press conference this evening.
Just wanted to let you know that I am for the transit workers on this one. While it won't be pretty if a strike takes place, practically crippling the city, the union has to do whatever it takes to get its way, by all means they deserve the raise and co-payment lowering that their asking for. -Nick
Just wanted to let you know that I am for the transit workers on this one. While it won't be pretty if a strike takes place, practically crippling the city, the union has to do whatever it takes to get its way, by all means they deserve the raise and co-payment lowering that their asking for. -Nick
I feel the same way. If the TWU loses this round, transit workers will forever be "dogmeat".
There will be no strike tomorrow & my father is the member of TWU-100. Any way my father is going to work no matter if they on strike or not. Have a good night Sub buffs.
Peace Out
David Meaney
He would've been a SCAB if there was a strike.
He would've been a SCAB if there was a strike.
Is there a strike or not?
With the Court Order that sez No Rulebook Slowdown or a 25,000 fine I have one question. A Rulebook Slowdown Simple Means following TA Guidelines on how to run a train. Like a Posted Speed sign may be 25MPH witch means you can't go faster then 25MPH. Now by saying No Rulebook Slowdown does that mean I have a order from the Supreme Court to Disobay the Rules of TA. Meaning Instead of doing a Posted Speed Limit of 20Mph I can do 30 MPH instead? Now lets say a New Guy gets confussed thinking if he goes over the Switch at 10MPH he may be arrrested and may go faster like 25 Mph instead. Then theres that risk of a derailment.
I COULD CARE LESS WHAT SOME OF THINK GO TO HELL!!!
however i do thank david pirrman and new york city subway rersources
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stay on topic of of rail and subway transit information etc..
and lay off all of some of your racism and personal attacks
and your '' RUBBER ROOMS ' etc
so unless you are ON TOPIC ABOUT SUB TALK ........
i couldnt give two cents damn what you think !!!!!!!!!
my thanks to DAVE PIRRMAN and new york city subway resources !!
and no to any of you !!!! go to hell !!
"I COULD CARE LESS WHAT SOME OF THINK GO TO HELL!!!"
I'm sure they have railfan windows for nuts like you down there.
"and lay off all of some of your racism and personal attacks"
Crying racism is the chief sign of a weak argument.
(remaining drivel snipped)
You should really read the whole message I'm responding you. That is what we will call EXHIBIT A, for why WebBBS should have killfiles.
I was depending on the LIRR to get me to Woodside this week for my temp job in case of a strike from Broadway in Flushing.
However, the LIRR will close most stations on the Port Washington branch in the event of a strike.
The required question is why?
To improve service for Long Islanders!!! Queens can go uck themselves as our City Council leader put it.
That's so typical of MTA, and our state government. They (Pataki) always give suburban riders more $$$ for service. And it doesn't suprise me that LIRR would try to deny service to the Flushing area in event of a strike, since the LIRR and MTA always try to play favorites with the rich crowd in Queens (Kew Gardens, Forest Hills get $3 shuttles), but slight the poor and middle class crowd around Flushing by completely denying them service at rush hour! Fortunately a strike has been averted (Thank God), but service on the PW branch in my opinion is horrible. They have the roughest riding trains, and are slow. Also on my last trip on that line, the LIRR conductor, who announced the stops, announced "Flushing, flushing, flushing" in a very obvious fake Chinese accent when we pulled into Flushing Main street.
I should've gotten the train number and reported that, but then again, LIRR conductors have even used foul language on the PA sometimes, this isn't out of the norm for the lousy LIRR service western Nassau and Queens gets.
As I said, if the MTA is going to take a strike, the LIRR is the one to take. I get the feeling that a lot of people on Long Island would just as soon lock out the LIRR for a year or two.
Guys --
Before we take the conspiracy theory to the point that the LIRR shot JFK, please consider the following:
1. The Port Washington Branch is a two track line (one beyond Great Neck). Once one train is overloaded and slowed down making local stops, the entire line is slowed down.
2. The overwhelming majority of those in NE Queens who were impacted by the transit strike and could consider the LIRR would be headed for Manhattan.
3. Keeping each station open during the AM rush would have encouraged passengers to flow to every station along the line. It also would have encouraged intra-Queens passengers to consider using the LIRR.
4. Once a train came to a stop at any of the local stations it would be flooded with passengers. It would then have to make each stop into Penn ad go through the same routine. How long would that take? If you were boarding further down the line at Murray Hill or Flushing, you'd never get on.
5. By restricting access only to Bayside, it makes it inconvenient to get to the station but not impossible. Boarding the train is made much more efficient, since platform access can be restricted. So the line doesn't get tied up. Trains which don't normally stop in Bayside can be notified to stop, since there is personnel on hand to monitor demand.
6. The Jamaica-Penn stretch has 4 tracks, 3 of which can be used for westbound service. The shuttles operate would have operated on the local track while the regular trains would be on the express tracks.
On the subject of the conductor with the mocking accent. Fire away. You won't hear me defend his actions one bit.
Chuck
>>>3. Keeping each station open during the AM rush would have encouraged passengers to flow to
every station along the line. It also would have encouraged intra-Queens passengers to consider
using the LIRR. <<<
Why not? I use the LIRR to go from Broadway to Woodside all the time, using my monthly pass.
Stations along the LIRR PW branch are close enough so that the line can be thought of as an extension of the #7 train. The LIRR could have run all-local service on 10 minute headways.
Some w-bound trains could have gone to Shea Stadium, where there were vans and carpools set up; other trains could have proceeded on to Woodside or Penn, and so wouldn't be backed up in the tunnel. There are things the LIRR could have done.
>>>4. Once a train came to a stop at any of the local stations it would be flooded with passengers. It
would then have to make each stop into Penn ad go through the same routine. How long would
that take? If you were boarding further down the line at Murray Hill or Flushing, you'd never get
on. <<
If you ran enough trains at 10 minute intervals, you could. They could have even trotted out some of the old diesels that are being retired.
They could have set up folding chairs in goldola cars and hauled them with yard locos borrowed from Sunnyside.
And where would the locos go? They can't go into the tunnel.
>>>And where would the locos go? They can't go into the tunnel.<<<
They wouldn't have had to. The diesels could have turned around at Shea after dropping passengers at the car pool and van station at Shea, or could have proceeded to LIC where ferry service would have been beefed up.
Aaaahhhh...I'm glad we're discussing this hypothetically...
Kevin --
In my rush to get everything down, I didn't make it clear why having intra-Queens service on the PW branch wouldn't have made sense in the strike. If the train made all local stops, the passenger volume by about the second or third stop would be suffocating (not necessarily a novel item to many LIRR riders). Since there would be riders bound for both Queens and Penn station, you couldn't simply make the train into an express. You'd have to continue down the line as a local. At every stop dwell times would get worse and worse -- as a few dozen passengers tried to exit from the mass of humanity already aboard and hundreds more tried to board. Eventually, you'd just have one long line of crowded trains.
As you noted in another post -- it certainly is good to be discussing this hypothetically.
Chuck
If the LIRR couldn't serve both Nassau and Queens, as you say, the LIRR could just as easily chosen to cut off Nassau? Hardly. Can you imagine the cry? How about if NYC transit refused to sell Metrocards at outer-Queens stations during an LIRR strike -- you had to buy them at you local store IN the city -- so LIRR riders wouldn't pile on? Any possibility of THAT happening?
I'm not saying that the LIRR couldn't handle Nassau and Queens commuters, I'm just saying it couldn't handle a huge volume of passengers and make local stops. LIRR cars are much larger than subway cars and probably hold twice as many people -- but with only two exits per car. The amount of station dwell time getting people on and off the train at each stop would back up the entire line.
By making only one stop in Queens during the strike, you'd eliminate the problem of people trying to get off an overcrowded train with only two doors. By limiting access to the platform, you reduce the dwell time from people trying to squeeze onto the train (or diving in through the conductors window -- as I've seen at Jamaica during some of the worst delays). You also limit the possibility of the platform becoming so crowded that someone falls onto the tracks.
A further problem with intra Queens service on the Port Washington branch is the length of the platforms. Many (most?, all?) of the stations in Queens have short platforms -- some only 4 cars. So you'll have announcements that "only the first 4 cars will platform at Murray Hill". But if only the first 4 cars platform at Murray Hill and only the last 4 platform at Douglaston -- and it's a 12 car train. , what does that do to dwell time when the passengers in the rear have to walk up 7 cars (through an SRO crowd) in order to exit. If you had only the front 4 cars platform at each short platform you'd have a train which was 1/3 packed and 2/3 empty.
The Port Washington branch simply wasn't built to handle the volume it would have faced during a subway strike -- particularly the volume of intra-Queens commuters. I agree that the plan sucked for a guy like Kevin, and it even sucked for riders going to Penn Station. But it's my opinion that it would have sucked even more if they simply ran normal service or even additional local trains.
I don't think the LIRR has a grand plan to screw Queens riders. In my opinion the plan they came up with was done to (1) keep the railroad running smoothly as best possible and (2) to best serve their regular passengers (generally Long Island riders going to NYC and some NE and SE Queens residents going to Penn Station or Flatbush).
Has anyone considered whether the LIRR unions would have even allowed for a major change in service aimed at replacing NYCTA service in the event of a strike?
Chuck
I thought Oswald looked a little like Dashing Dan.
Overshadowed by all the strike talk is an amazing accomplishment that should not pass without comment. FOr the month of November, the Jerome Maintnenace Shop (#4 line) achieved an unbelievable MDBF. For the month, their fleet performed at 717,000 miles \, eclipsing the Livonia Maintenance Shop (one month) record of 400,000. In addition, the R-62s rat at an MDBF of 777,800 for the month.
Congratulations on an impressive accomplishment. If your personal efforts contributed to this, congratulations again.
Now - what are the chances of this being repeated in the near future, given the heavy-handed tactics Rudy used to ward off a strike? Pretty slim, I expect.
WOW, Great numbers a good job for all.
Nope, I take no credit for their accomplishments. Knowingf what it takes to stay above 100,000 miles each month, I can only say this feat boggles the mind. Keep in mind that justa few short years ago the fleet MDBF was around 30,000 and the department goal was 40k. Today the goal is around 77,000 but 100,000 is the trarget of most.
Back around 1978 - 1980 or so, the MDBF was 6,000!!!
--Mark
That is good news. What's next - one million miles MBDF?
(One million miles MBDF?) When I was with the TA in 1987, a bunch of TA bigwigs went over to Tokoyo. They were getting one million miles MBDF. The reason -- they were replacing parts BEFORE they broke. With that big innovation in place, one million is not impossible.
Man, I wish the LIRR would start doing whatever the TA is doing!!!!
I've heard the M-1s get about 30,000 between breakdowns, and I'd imagine the diesel fleet is even worse.
How was this number calculated?
Looking over the printed schedule for the #5 line (dated Sept. 1998) I noticed something odd. The last train of the day leaves 180th St. for Dyre Ave. at 11:49 PM. (Saturday and Sunday this is a shuttle - weekdays it originates at Bowling Green at 11:08). But the first train of the next day (always a shuttle) doesn't leave 180th St. until 12:25 AM. That means there is a 36-minute interval in which there is no service to Dyre Ave. Can this be correct? I thought there was supposed to be at least one train every 20 minutes at every station.
Do other lines have service gaps like this? If they have not done so, they should add a train from 180th St. to Dyre Ave. at 12:07 AM.
I just saw this lecture listed in last Sunday's Times. It is sponsored by the Transit Museum, so it must have been listed in the Museum's newsletter. I just thought some people might be interested in it. Joseph Raskin who is a transportation historian, will be giving a 2 hour lecture on the plans that were made to expand the subway system from 1908 to 1968 that were not realized. He will discuss the link to Staten Island, the 2nd Ave Subway, and others. He will have photographs, maps, and historical documents. He will also speculate on what changes would have been made in the various boroughs if these proposed expansions had been realized. The lecture is scheduled Thursday 7 PM Cooper Union Hewitt Building, 41 Coper Square on 3rd Ave., between E 6th and E 7th. Free for Transit Museum members, $5 for nonmemembers, $25 for SubTalk posters (just a joke) 718-243-8601
Too bad my wife works late Thursday or I'd be there for sure.
Mr Raskin and I have exchanged some private e-mail regarding the Capsule History of the IND article posted on this site as well as suggestions for further info. He said the article "filled in some of the holes of his research", although I didn't think he had any holes in his info! If anyone intends to go, I'd be very interested in your notes. on the lecture.
Mr Raskin used to conduct the Routes Not Built tour that went to the lower level of City Hall (BMT), 2nd Ave subway and Roosevelt Ave second system trackways & station.
--Mark
It sounds to good to pass up.
I'll be there!!
Great! Please please please take lots of good notes!!!
--Mark
I'd like to see a summary of the chat on Subtalk, since my evening free lance work will exclude me from the fun.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Around 2am (I was not up) they reached a deal. No numbers released yet but supposedly 5/3/4% respectively over 3 years according to CBS 880. TV4 says no specifics released yet but they say Exec Board should vote to send to the rank and file. I intend to vote YES because it is better than 9%.
DISCLAIMER:
If the judge is reading this: I intend to work! I did not say or tell others anything different than the news media. I never told anyone else what they should or should not do.
I'm glad to hear it. It certainly was newsworthy to your big city neighbor to the south.
Now there won't be anything to talk about:)
Thanks Subway Steve! This was a trying time for this transit worker!
I was getting quite a bit of gray hair trying to figure out how to get to the field office so I would be at work (Your Honor the Judge- I did say "at work")
I am glad that a tenative settlement has been worked out. I would like to hear from Eric and Harry on their views, since employee treatment has been a good part of the strike talk.
12/16/99
Subway Steve,
I wonder how the employees at SEPTA was viewing all this. I could imagine them at a crew room watching the news on the TV and commenting since SEPTA has had strikes in the past.
Bill Newkirk
I'm sure they're mad that you guys aren't as hard-headed and obstinate as they are.
Steve Brookens must be so mad he's ready to scale the Empire State Building and swat at subway trains, only to realize he's about 1300 feet too high:):)
I actually interviewed Steve Brookens for a recent citywide mayoral project I did and he didn't seem quite as cro-magnon as he did during the SEPTA strike.
But then again, it was at a political rally. Those things make sudden eggheads out of anybody.
Hallelujah! Sounds as if Santa Claus came early.
I'll hold the champaign until after ratification.
12/16/99
The latest I hear is "New Directions", a splinter group is protesting the "deal" and calling Willie James a sellout. What happens if rank and file do not ratify the contract? Is a strike possible?
Bill Newkirk
New Dirctions is already complaining about the contract without knowing all the facts, they are even going so far as to e-mail employees to make sure it is not ratified by posting "unconfirmed rumors". IMOH they are now a greater threat to the membership then management is.
I was at the A.M. meeting on Tues. and left with the opinion of a intimidated union leadership but after all is said and done I am finding out that New Directions just wants to be the big fish in the pond. This is to all TWU LOCAL 100 members a quote from The WHO; song Won't Get Fooled Again "Meet the new boss same as the old boss" This is not meant to sway anybody either way read it and form your own opinion and vote the way you feel.
To all you non-transit workers I am sorry for discussing this business but it has been a long week and this is the easist way for me to express my views to my fellow workers.
No matter how you slice it Beast Rider, if the employees are not satisfied with the contract, there will bea residue of bitterness that will carry over during the length of the contract. Here's hoping the overwhelming majority of TWU members can live with the contract and look at it as an improvement over the last one.
Since someone said tht the strike is settled, shall our walk proceed uninhibited, come Sunday?
That's what it sounds like. 12/19/99, it is!!!
-Stef
I'll be there. I've been looking forward to it for weeks.
Though I have no guarantees from our resident meteriologist, I hear that Sunday's weather is expected to be fair, but cold.
See you Sunday!
--Mark
Well you won't get me to guarantee the weather :0)
But yeah, Mark, sounds right. I'll be here in Boston this weekend.
My next Transit and Weather Together weekend is XMAS weekend.
Enjoy the trip... wish I could be there!
Anyone know what happened at F/A/C Jay Street this morning? Took me 2 hours to get to work...
There was an Atlantic Avenue incident on the IRT -- a "sick passenger." I did not want to mention it because I didn't want to be accused of anti-worker rumour-mongering.
I don't see an easy end to this. There is a split in the union, and the contract could be voted down.
TA bus drivers and maintainers earn more than private bus and truck drivers and mechanics. They vote yes.
TA token clerks earn more than bank tellers. They vote yes.
TA Station cleaners earn more than private janitors. They vote yes.
Track and structure workers earn less than the construction unions, but more than most (non-union) construction workers actually earn, and because they don't have connections, they can't get in the construction unions. I'm not sure how they vote.
Subway mechanics probably earn less than other electricians, and T/Os, conductors, and signal operators earn less than those in comparable jobs. They vote no.
Then what?
Its the same thing in DC37, which includes clerical and professional/technical workers. The private sector replaced 90 percent of their clerical workers with information technology, and downsized them. Not only do clerical workers earn more working for the city, if they didn't have a city job they would probably be unemployed. Meanwhile, the maximum city salaries for professionals are about equal to private starting salaries these days.
Most "City" Full Journeymen make provailing wage. They get the same per hour working for the city as working construction. The TA on the other hand it is different. TA Electricians don't make what a city electrican does.
But then housing has a title Maintenance Worker who is like a handy man who would be replacing simple things like switches or ballast. Where I work we have to have a full journeyman electrican do that at twice the pay rate.
I heard there was a police investigation that involved garbage that was thrown on the tracks at Jay. Possible sabotage scenario?
Doug aka BMTman
That must have been some impressive pile of garbage. When I got to Columbus Circle this morning, they were announcing that -- because of an incident at Jay Street -- A and C trains were going to be turned at WTC.
Chuck
Yeah, and due to that work-slow up switching problem yesterday at Hoyt-Schermerhorn that backed things up to B'way/ENY, I decided to go with the LIRR at East New York. It cost me 4.75 to go 2 stops, but I was able to get to work on time.
Doug aka BMTman
Looking back through the files I find that the first train of blue and white painted R-10's entered service on December 13,1966 or thirty three years ago. The blue and white scheme was one of the nicest ever carried by the R-10's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I thought that blue-and-white paint job was put on the R-10s when the the subway first went to Rockaway, and it was a way of saying "Look! 'A' trains now go to the ocean!". Even though trains had gone to Coney Island since the beginning of the century.
I also thought R-10s were exclusive to the 'A' till the 'C' also got them around 1972-3, but was astounded to see a picture of one on the 'B' circa 1968 in the "Trains and Stations" pages. But then, there were a lot of crazy equipment swaps in the late 60s. Too bad I was too young to ride the trains myself back then.
I've seen pictures of R10 cars on the D, CC, AA, B and J/15 lines
No, Larry Redbird R-33 is right. The paint scheme dates back to 1963. It was done for the 1964-65 World's Fair. The R-33/36's were the first to have it. Then in 1966, the R-10's were painted in the same colors. it was the TA's plan, at the time for all non-stainless equipment to be repainted in blue/white. It never happened, except for the R-10's. Then, of course, we all know what happened in 1970. It was the beginning of the horrible silver and blue era. Yuck! I'm so glad that the TA abandoned that scheme in favor of the Redbird scheme. I'd rather all the carbon steel cars be in blue/white World's Fair colors, but I'll take red over silver nd blue.
I kinda liked the dark green the R10's sported in their last days. While the red looks nice, it's not exactly the color I'd use to paint subway cars. When I first started seeing the R27-30 redbirds on the J line (late 85) I called them "fire engines".
I kinda liked the dark green the R10's sported in their last days. While the red looks nice, it's not exactly the color I'd use to paint subway cars. When I first started seeing the R27-30 redbirds on the J line (late 85) I called them "fire engines".
The original exterior color of the R-27/30 cars was that same dark green that the R-10's were painted. They were painted red about 1968 or so. I guess the TA went full circle from 1960 to 1985. BTW, the original "Redbirds" were the R-29/33 cars (mainline R-33's) that were delivered with bright red exteriors. Their original interior colors were light blue with purple doors.
.
> horrible silver and blue era.
De gustibus! I think this is one of the best schemes. I think it looked particularly neat on the R-9's that got it... :-)
-Dave
> horrible silver and blue era.
De gustibus! I think this is one of the best schemes. I think it looked particularly neat on the R-9's that got it... :-)
-Dave
> horrible silver and blue era.
De gustibus! I think this is one of the best schemes. I think it looked particularly neat on the R-9's that got it... :-)
-Dave
YUCK! :-(
I hated the silver and blue color scheme, but no doubt part of the reason was the gawdawful pistachio green and gray interiors (with the stenciled car numbers) the MTA painted the inside, along with the association with the beginning of the graffiti era and the fact the MTA seemed to be trying to redesign everything to fit the authority's color scheme -- i.e. all the RR local stations between 60th St. and Fifth Ave. and 77th St. in Brooklyn and just about every single TA bus in the system.
They also spent money repainting subway cars (the R-29/33 Redbirds) that had no need of repainting at the time while ignoring more important things, like preventive maintenance, where the money should have gone.
Other than that, Bill Ronan and his boys did a great job in the early 1970s.
UGH! And all the track dust and grime and munge that paint picked up!
Did you ever see the interior of these cars - a bilious shade of Green and white paint everywhere, even on the fan blades. Not to mention those AWFUL back-breaking, butt-numbing Fiberglas Seats. YUK! PHOOEY! Sacre Vert! Worse even than today's Slant R40 seats.
wAYNE ~o~
No way. Those R40 seats were the worst ever concieved.
Hey, Wayne, what happened to the Mr. Slant R-40 part of your handle?
I really hate to disagree with the creator of the best web site on the internet but the R1-9's were only meant to have their original colors with the original "CITY OF NEW YORK" painted on 'em!!! Changing their colors were almost as sacreligious as changing their great bull & pinion gear and brake and door sounds!!!!
I really hate to disagree with the creator of the best web site on the internet but the R1-9's were only meant to have their original colors with the original "CITY OF NEW YORK" painted on 'em!!! Changing their colors were almost as sacreligious as changing their great bull & pinion gear and brake and door sounds!!!!
That's right. When the MTA performed such a heinous act, they should have been disbanded and they should have brought back the old Board of Transportation. Ronan should have been burned at the stake for ordering such a heinous act to be done against those poor innocent subway cars.
I liked it too, although I almost never saw this paint scheme on a subway car that wasn't covered over with grafitti.
In fact, when freshly painted in this “Ronan MTA” color scheme the L.A.H.T. (low-alloy high-tensile, or carbon steel as more commonly known) cars in question didn’ have graffiti. That came ex post facto.
In fact, when freshly painted in this “Ronan MTA” color scheme the L.A.H.T. (low-alloy high-tensile, or carbon steel as more commonly known) cars in question didn’ have graffiti. That came ex post facto.
I believe it is pure coincidence. Cars that were painted red, the R-36's and the R-1/9's were beginning to get graffitied anyway. I think we would have had the graffiti problem anyway. The stainless steel cars got it also. The R-36's in their WF blue/white got it plenty. It was just coincidence, like I said.
Interesting you mentioning about car-swappings. Although, from circa 1969 to the early 1980’s, different IRT cars (R12-33) being in one train was commonplace, when this was attempted on the BMT/IND “B” Division lines in ’69 it didn’t work so well, not the least of which because with some exceptions (the R16 and R27/30 and the R40M and R42), no two car orders looked alike. There are quite a few examples in the Illustrated Car Roster section of nycsubway.org, i.e. an F train which had, in one train, an R40 slant followed by an R38 and then an R40M. Or an N train with the last six cars being R32, R40 slant and R42. Or an A train with an R42 and an R10. Or, in more than one case, an R42 leading a train of R27/30’s. And so on.
Actually I used the wrong terminology. What I MEANT to say was in the late 60s-early 70s, any given Division B line could carry many different models of rolling stock TOGETHER on one train. This is certainly proven in the photos in the TRAINS & STATIONS page. I never would have imagined an R-1 on the 'QB', an R-10 on the 'B', an R-16 on the 'F', or, most incredibly, an R-42 on the 'CC'. But they're there. Joe Testagrossa must have had a lot of patience to wait for these trains to come for him to photograph.
I remember how, in the early-to-mid seventies, an 'E' or 'F' could be made up of R1-9s, 38s, Slant 40s, Mod 40s, 42s, 44s or 46s. Likewise, well into the eighties, you could bever be quite sure what your train would be:
-'A' could be R10s, 38s, Slants or 44s.
-'B' could be R27s, 32s, 38s, Slants or 42s.
-'D' could be R32s, Mod 40s, 42s or 44s.
-'GG' could be R10s, 32s or 46s.
-'LL' could be R16s, 27s, 32s (!) or 42s.
-'RR' could be R27s, 32s or 42s.
As for the Division A Mainlines, if you didn't like the car you were in, you only had to go to the next one.
Today, most lines have one, maybe two models of rolling stock on them. Only the 'N', with its mix of 32s, Slants and 68s offers much element of unpredictability.
But then this stuff MATTERS to me. Most people couldn't care less what kind of train it is, as long it gets them where they're going.
The old RR route takes the cake for the most types of cars running on it. From 1985-87, I saw the R16, R27-30, R32, R40 (slant and straight), R42, and R46. I always thought this line got the leftovers from other lines.
And then of course there was the GG. I remember in the early-to-mid-’80’s R10’s were plying that route.
And then of course there was the GG. I remember in the early-to-mid-’80’s R10’s were plying that route.
What a waste! Those speed demons on that out-of-the-way local.
IMHO, the R-10s should never have left the A line. That's where they belonged. At least their immediate successors, the slant R-40s, were more than up to the task. Not too many fleets or series of cars were dedicated to one route. Other than the R-10s on the A, only the R-36s on the 7 come to mind, and they are a sure bet to set a record which will probably never be broken.
The only mixed consists I ever saw on the B division back when it was widespread were D trains of R-32s and R-42s coupled together, and it drove me nuts. Because each fleet of IND/BMT cars looked distinctly different, they tended to clash when coupled together in a train, especially if a pair of slant R-40s found their way in. Some combinations weren't that bad: the R-32s and R-38s blend in well, as do R-40Ms and R-42s. And the R-16s strongly resembled the R-27/30s.
I prefer solid trains, plain and simple.
The G is one of the fatsest lines in the system, especially from Greenpoint to Myrtle.
Unfortunatly, I never have ridden anything but an R32 or 46 on this line, as far back as 1985.
The G is one of the fatsest lines in the system, especially from Greenpoint to Myrtle.
Unfortunatly, I never have ridden anything but an R32 or 46 on this line, as far back as 1985.
But its still a LOCAL. The R-10's were a waste on any local run. Put 'em on an express and kick 'em into overdrive!
BTW, I've ridden R-1/9's, R-16's, R-32's, R-38's and R-40M's on the GG.
Well I'm younger, and anything before 1985 is a complete mystery to me, except for the J line.
I do remember that slant R40's on the A in the early 80's really zipped along Fulton St.
Well I'm younger, and anything before 1985 is a complete mystery to me, except for the J line.
That shouldn't matter. Its all relative. I'm 15 years older than you. What you refer to as before 1985, I refer to as before 1970. yet, I have strong recollections of early and mid-sixties pre-Chrystie St. service. Maybe the difference is what your family used for transportation when you were growing up vs. what my family used. If you had a car in your family, you probably rode the subway a lot less as a small child than I did with no car growing up. Everywhere my family went while I was a child, we went by subway. Neither my father or mother drove. I began joy-riding the subway on my own at age 14. Of course, that's something that all railfans do by instinct. We don't have to be taught to do that. :-)
My family never owned a car during my life. To this day, I cannot drive and I'm 27. LOL.
No wonder I love our subway system.
Then I guess that I'm an anomaly.
Both my parents have driver's licenses (although my mother never drives), we have two cars. And I got my permit only a month after my sixteenth birthday.
Everything that I did as a child involved being driven someplace, I would only ride the subway once or twice a year (if at all) until I began going to school in the city in 1996.
My family never owned a car during my life. To this day, I cannot drive and I'm 27. LOL.
No wonder I love our subway system.
I waited until age 21 to get my driver's license. I always used to say "I don't need to learn how to drive. The subway gets me where I need to go". I said that until I realized that taking 2 buses or 2 trains and a bus to get to Douglaston on a weekend from Woodhaven and Queens Blvd. took 1 1/2 to 2 hours, whereas a drive on the LIE took only 12 minutes. Nobody should pride themselves on not having a driver's license. You never know when you're going to need it. That's a fact. I left New York 19 years ago. I'm living in South Florida. To say that public transportation sucks here is putting it very mildly. If you want to go anywhere around here even during the week, prepare for a 2-3 hour trip (one way) if you have no car. The Metrorail does me no good. I have to go out of my way if I want to ride it. Tri-Rail does me no good. You can drive to Tri-Rail, but once you get to your destination with Tri-Rail, the lack of connecting feeder buses is pathetic. Its only good if you're going to Downtown Miami, and you still have to switch for either the Metrorail or an express bus to get Downtown. Your best bet here is your own car. I'd be stranded without it. Hey, I'd love to see a decent transit system here, so I wouldn't need the cars (my wife has one too), but it ain't gonna happen. If that did happen, I'd probably give up only 1 car. Even when I lived in Queens, I had a car. I only used it on weekends, but I had a car. BTW, this is the only place in the country where I've seen someone back up off of the access ramp to an expressway. Its also the only place in the country where noone stops for stop signs or red lights. I've actually had idiots honk me because they don't like when I make a complete stop at a stop sign. Hey, the sign says "stop", not "proceed with caution"! Having a car does have its advantages. You can legally go 70 MPH here. Try doing that with the NYCTS. Hippos move over, I'd like to break into a trot and pass you up!
You haven t been to Hawaii, Las Vegas or California. They calling a rolling stop. Here in Hawaii, especially Maui, Yield means to speed up and cut the guy off, stop on Red means if it is red on the cross street, and directional signals are optional, and do not to be used, until you start your turn, and not for lane changing
You haven t been to Hawaii, Las Vegas or California. They calling a rolling stop. Here in Hawaii, especially Maui, Yield means to speed up and cut the guy off, stop on Red means if it is red on the cross street, and directional signals are optional, and do not to be used, until you start your turn, and not for lane changing
Isn't it something that wherever you have a tourist trap in the sunbelt, that's where the world's worst drivers seem to collect? What happens is that the sun fries their brains! BTW, I just checked the weather in Honolulu, Miami and NYC. Its basically the same in Honolulu and Miami - Low of low 70's, High of high 70's. NYC is having a hot spell - high of mid 40's.
A lot of times it is the tourists who do not know where they are going, but according to statics the worst drivers are by the highest rates by state N.J. and CT. I found that to be true, followed by Boston. Ask Sgt Jeff, how often a cop targets a NJ or CT driver in NYC if he had a choice to ticket or a NYS Plate. I was told once by a traffic cop in the city they love ticketing NJ Drivers
You've been away from NY a long time. Unfortunately people drive like that here too, and probably all over the rest of the country.
You've been away from NY a long time. Unfortunately people drive like that here too, and probably all over the rest of the country.
That's not true. I've driven in other places. There are actually some places where people are humane, obey traffic laws and courtesy of the road prevails. I found that to be true in Naples, FL on the Gulf Coast, in Tallahassee, FL and in Columbia, SC. Asheville, NC was a lot like South Florida. Georgia isn't too bad. I'm sorry to hear that the drivers in the NYC area have become no better than here. I guess I can't continue to tell people "They don't drive like this in New York".
My mother didn't start driving until she was 34. I still remember when she was taking behind-the-wheel instruction. One day she was driving our '53 Pontiac (probably the only time she ever drove it) and broke off the turn signal lever. On another occasion, while driving our brand new Rambler, she misjudged a turn and wound up on our front lawn instead of the driveway. No, she didn't hit anything, but my father asked her if she knew where the brake pedal was. It's not as bad as it sounds. She did get her license in June of 1962, and has never had an accident. The kicker is my father QUIT smoking for good right after that; he's now enjoying his retirement and hasn't touched a cigarette since then.
My aunt can top that: she's 74, doesn't drive, and has no desire to learn.
You can survive without a drivers license in NYC, but not elsewhere. During the 3 weeks I spent in Puerto Rico 18 months ago I had to depend on others to go anywhere.
We know the new cars are going to the IRT WEST FARMS lines,but what about the the #7 FLUSHING lines? News is the R62/62a will be sent there. Flushing riders have had to deal with the R33WF/36WF cars for over 35 years now. Wouldn't be nice to see a shinny spankin'brand new train running over there with more to come?
Last I heard, it was unclear whether the R62/R62A or R142/R142A would be sent to the #7. Whenever those cars are finally sent, it will still be awhile. I've heard that the MTA is keeping 300 redbirds that are in the best shape, and using them on the #7 for a few more years. But that rumour was from awhile ago, so who knows... -Nick
thanks,Nick.
anytime!
The R142 will be put on the 2 and 5 first. The R62's on the 7 are headed for Flushing next month.
I've heard that the MTA is keeping 300 redbirds that are in the best shape ..
What criteria would be used to determine which Redbirds are in the best shape?
--Mark
A visual inspection of the entire car structure including the underfloor and removal of access covers as well as any other removable panels anywhere on the carbody. The cars with the least corrosion would be saved for further use.
My guess is that they'll save the 300 best and least rusted redbirds, reguardless of what R-class they're in. I think the MTA should lump all the remaining redbirds into one single R## category after every new R142 is in service.
The Redbirds CANNOT continue to be used on the Flushing Line. The R-33 Single MUST FEEL THE WRATH OF THE TORCH!
The Redbirds CANNOT continue to be used on the Flushing Line. The R-33 Single MUST FEEL THE WRATH OF THE TORCH!
Why? What do you have against the R-33 singles? They have been loyal and faithful servants on the 7-Line along with the R-36's. BTW, I think you should go back to Eugenius D. Train.
From
Because they are the only cars that don't have air conditioning intentionally. The R-32GE is a failure of the installation and the TA should have sued to GE for a refund.
He is hideing from Salaam Train Photographer, whom I think changed his name too
He is hideing from Salaam Train Photographer, whom I think changed his name too
It wouldn't be too easy for Salaam Subway Photographer to change his name. He has a unique style for posting. Everybody would know its him.
From
I think you'd understand the hatred of the R33S if you were forced to ride in one on some muggy July afternoon. Absolutley noone rides in those cars during hot weather. Not even recent immigrants from South America who would consider 95 degrees/99% humidity a cool snap.
I think you'd understand the hatred of the R33S if you were forced to ride in one on some muggy July afternoon. Absolutley noone rides in those cars during hot weather. Not even recent immigrants from South America who would consider 95 degrees/99% humidity a cool snap.
I remember when nothing on the Flushing Line was air conditioned. Fact is, nothing on the IRT was, altogether. I guess its different when the 10 other cars on the train are air conditioned and that 1 odd car isn't. NY gets the hot weather only 2-3 months out of the year. Its not like here where I live, that gets hot weather 10 months out of the year and warm weather the other two. The A/C in my house runs practically 24/7 365 days a year, except when there's a cold snap and the daytime temp goes down into the 60's or 50's, and those last only 2 or 3 days. Typical daytime temp here in winter has been low to high 70's. Current forcast calls for low 80's (today).mI see you're enjoying low 40's - nice and cool, but not harsh. In the summer, our usual is what NY gets during those terrible heat waves - high 90's with matching humidity. Spring and Fall, about mid 80's. Anyway, I know all about high temps and high humidity. It is very uncomfortable. I lived in NYC for 26 years and here, in South Florida for 19. It is very rare that we don't get a humid day here.
From
My grandmother remembered steam-pulled wooden el trains, but she was glad to see them go. I feel the same way for un-AC'd subway cars.
75 degrees in Savannah, GA in January. I'll be returning there in July for a Bat Mitzvah. I'm stocking up on anti-perspirant and air conditioners NOW.
-HanK :)
I'd say the Flushing riders are lucky to have those cars for 35 years. Too bad they're not the original World's Fair blue & white with the state names painted on 'em.
Too bad those R-33 singles are still with us. If they were to remain, they should have been converted to trailers to fit the A/C equipment.
As for my name, I've put my name in limbo not because I discovered that my original plan was to change my name to DEFY Reason, A revelation has forced me to change the name of my essay on the proposed construction of the Further East River. I do not yet know what it will be called. So no more incredulity. I KNEW I should have looked up that word in the dictionary.
So I suppose Mr. R-33WF is out of the question as a new name, right?
Well I tried using Mr. R-16 myself but everyone laughed at me.
Hey, if you liked the R-16s, go for it! As troublesome as they were, I can't knock them because I rode on them only twice, and then the two rides were 19 years apart. I personally won't use Mr. R-10 out of respect for William Padron, who IMHO is THE #1 R-10 fan around.
I personally won't use Mr. R-10 out of respect for William Padron, who IMHO is THE #1 R-10 fan around.
who is William Padron? Was he the guy who always carried that photocube with pictures of R-10's in it?
From
Mr Padron gives an incredibly detailed description of the R10's lifespan from delivery to scrapheap. It's located on the R10 page of the Illustrated Car Roster section of this website.
William posts on Subtalk from time to time.
while the transit alleges more ridership now what they dont mention is they count how many times a passenger goes through the turnstile not how many riders per day. Also a passenger riding during the middle of the night or even during middle of day is only using excess capacity They dont need any more cars
No. New cars almost always have teething problems. Putting them on the 7 line is a recipie for disaster. The very reliable R62 is a good choice. Again, newer isn't always better.
I heard that the R-62's were going to the 7. The R-142's would be going to the 5 and 2 trains and the R-62's on the 7. Rumor also had it that the R-110's were testing on the 7.
I thought the R-10s got their paint job two years earlier, when the World's Fair was held, since the style fit with the R-33WF and R-36WF cars.
Anyway, they had to get them no later than 1967, because several of the cars had the then-new (and to me, much missed) TA logo applied to one side.
I thought the R-10s got their paint job two years earlier, when the World's Fair was held, since the style fit with the R-33WF and R-36WF cars.
Anyway, they had to get them no later than 1967, because several of the cars had the then-new (and to me, much missed) TA logo applied to one side.
It would seem logical that it was 1964, but it wasn't. It was done in 1966.
Though I did like the later blue and white paint scheme, for me, an R-10's color will always be the grey livery with the orange stripes (or was it just one stripe - I'm at work and don't have time to go into the illustrated car roster); - their paint scheme when I first saw them around 1965.
Though I did like the later blue and white paint scheme, for me, an R-10's color will always be the grey livery with the orange stripes (or was it just one stripe - I'm at work and don't have time to go into the illustrated car roster); - their paint scheme when I first saw them around 1965.
They were 2-tone grey (medium and dark grey) with one orange stripe, and number plates to match - orange numbers on a dark grey background.
I suspect that there are a lot of fans who don't remember those orange numbers on the R-10's. They were still orange when I left in 1957. I wonder what year they did start to change them.
I suspect that there are a lot of fans who don't remember those orange numbers on the R-10's. They were still orange when I left in 1957. I wonder what year they did start to change them.
I don't know exactly when. I just looked at some of the R-10 pix on this site. Some pix in the blue/white paint scheme had the orange numbers, some had white numbers. My best educated guess would be 1970 or 1971. Most of Dave's pix of the R-10's in blue/white have orange numbers. The dated photos show 1966-1970 R-10's with orange numbers. A couple of undated photos show blue/white R-10's with white numbers. All the photos in the silver and blue paint scheme show white numbers. They began painting the R-10's (as well as all the other carbon steel cars) silver and blue in 1971.
Wow!!! You did a lot of research. I'm glad to know that they lasted a good while after I left. I always thought that those orange numbers were rather unique, and they did a good job keeping them clean. The orange stripe OTOH was all but invisible under the dirt,
Thank you for the information!
Actually, they were two-toned gray with TWO orange pinstripes. One stripe was below the window at the belt line, the other at the roof line. Car ends were a solid dark gray. The same color scheme was applied to the R-12/14's originally, except that the R-14's "light" gray was a slightly lighter shade than that on the R-10's and R-12's. In service, the orange stripes were just about obliterated by subway grime and brake shoe dust, so it is not surprising to me that you missed the second stripe. As a good friend of mine says (he's a motorman for the CTA - please forgive him) "all NYC subway cars eventually take on the protective coloring of ground burrowing animals!". On the first R-10, the number plate background was "light" gray. This was not carried over to fleet production. Fleet cars had orange numbers on a "dark" grey background, which survived into the turquoise (blue) and off-white era. BTW, there were two variations of the turquoise and white scheme. Originally, there was an additional turquoise stripe at the belt rail just above the main color separation, as well as a turquosie stripe at the roof line. The car roof was white (although it is usually impossible to tell this from photos of cars in service - they are so grunged up). Somewhat later a simplified scheme was used wherein the stripes were eliminated and the car roof was turquoise. The color separation also occurred higher on the body side, at about the level of the previous stripe. The World's Fair inspired scheme was potentially very attractive, but is did not fare well on the mostly R-10's, which spent most of their time underground. It did much better on the R-33WF and R-36WF cars which were assigned to a mostly elevated run.
Actually, they were two-toned gray with TWO orange pinstripes. One stripe was below the window at the belt line, the other at the roof line. Car ends were a solid dark gray.
Here is a photo of 1575, the R-10 prototype. I don't see a second orange stripe on the car. Were the R-10's actually delivered with 2 orange stripes?
Car 1575 was that one-of-a-kind R10 body on R7 guts. That photo does show rather clearly that there was only the belt rail stripe. It looks rather "naked" without the upper stripe.
The R10's were definitely delivered with the upper and lower orange stripes. Good photos exist in Greller's NYC Subway Cars book, on page 47 -- lower photo of 3037 and upper photo of others when fairly new at 207th Street Yard.
The photo of 3037 shows what appears to be a very light shade of light grey, compared to the cars on either side of it. The roof of all three cars in the photo show what appears to be the same amount of subway grime/dirt, though.
Looking at the other paint schemes illustrated on the R10's in the book, I'd say the original is my favorite -- followed by the turquoise and white. The red scheme didn't do anything for thecars, and the dark green with silver roofs, in my opinion, makes the cars look VERY old. (Maybe it's just ME that is very old....)
Looking at the other paint schemes illustrated on the R10's in the book, I'd say the original is my favorite -- followed by the turquoise and white. The red scheme didn't do anything for thecars, and the dark green with silver roofs, in my opinion, makes the cars look VERY old. (Maybe it's just ME that is very old....)
The R-26/28's and the R-27/30's had the same very dark green (almost black) exterior, and they were much newer than the R-10's. They dated 1959-1962. I don't think it makes the cars look old. Silver and blue certainly didn't make the R-9's look new. It just made them look ugly.
Self-aggrandizing people tend to try to make things theirs that were done by somebody else -- like movie studios clipping off the original titles to their older film and putting on a new logo to match the latest corporate takeover. The MTA was Bill Ronan's baby. He and Rockefeller designed it in part to get control of the Tribouogh Bridge and Tunnel System from Moses, using the TA' operating deficit as the excuse. Once in power, Bill and his boys wanted everyone to know exactly whose system it was, so they spent all that money on silver and blue paint and let the real needs of the system fall apart.
God knows how much money they were spending by the late 1970s repainting cars every two years or so, though admittedly the graffiti problem was a bigger one than just the MTA could handle. But I always thought that green and grey interior just cried out to the taggers of the world "SPRAY ME"
Self-aggrandizing people tend to try to make things theirs that were done by somebody else -- like movie studios clipping off the original titles to their older film and putting on a new logo to match the latest corporate takeover. The MTA was Bill Ronan's baby. He and Rockefeller designed it in part to get control of the Tribouogh Bridge and Tunnel System from Moses, using the TA' operating deficit as the excuse. Once in power, Bill and his boys wanted everyone to know exactly whose system it was, so they spent all that money on silver and blue paint and let the real needs of the system fall apart.
God knows how much money they were spending by the late 1970s repainting cars every two years or so, though admittedly the graffiti problem was a bigger one than just the MTA could handle. But I always thought that green and grey interior just cried out to the taggers of the world "SPRAY ME"
Another characteristic of Ronan's rule was painting every station column blue and beige; also every hand rail and exit door was painted yellow - system-wide. Didn't he even have stations painted blue and silver? The paint companies must have made a fortune off of Bill
Ronan!
Yeees! The second orange stripe was just above the doors at the roof line. Looking at this photograph, you can see just how grungy the roof of this car (actually R-7MOD #1575 - an R-7 rebuilt by ACF with a welded R-10 type body) is. The roof looks like a different shade of gray than the upper sides, when in reality it was the same shade of gray! Using in-service photographs to determine paint schemes for NYCTA equipment is difficult at best, most times it's impossible. That is why, I try to obtain builders photos when painting my HO scale models. The builders photos of the R-10's from ACF clearly show the two stripes as I described in my previous post.
Silly question. Did they change the motors and mechanics on the car when they made the prototype. In other words did it still sound like an R7 with the great R1-9 sounds or did it sound like an R10.
I don't believe so. Mechanically, 1575 was still an R-7A with AMUE brakes and two motors with spur-cut bull and pinion gears. It could operate only with other R-1/9s and stuck out like a sore thumb.
I rode on car 1575 in 1967 or 1968, it was working the "GG" then. Usually I would take the "E" or "F" out to Jamaica to catch the LIRR, but when I saw this car, my curiosity piqued, so I rode the local out to 71st. As I remember, it sounded just like the old R-1/9 series. I thought that was very strange, though it had the "new" body of the R10, though this was 20 years after being built. Never saw it before that one time, and never later either.
We saw #1575 on November 4, 1969; she was the lead motor of a "KK" train we rode from 34th Street-6 Avenue to Eastern Parkway (that's as far as the train was going). We were back a few cars in #1708 and noticed it when we got off the train to change for the "QJ". Dad and I went to explore her, leaving Mom with her new vacuum on the platform . Almost a bad move - the doors began to close, but Dad held them to and we managed to get off; otherwise we'd have wound up in ENY Yard and Mom would not have been too happy.
Wayne
But i bet you'd have been thrilled. LOL.
Didn't they verify that trains headed for a yard were completly empty back then? Or were people smarter back then, being trusted to know where to get off?
I don't remember ever seeing it but I might have. I just would've thought, "Why is one of the "A" Train cars on that train? Maybe someone at the yard was drunk & didn't realize it!!" Its funny but you always saw R12's (which were like R10's) coupled with newer cars on the IRT.
The thing about 1575 was that it had flourescent lighting, which stuck out like a sore thumb in a train of R-1/9's.
At least on the IRT, the lightint sort of matched with all cars being flourescent.
I've seen other photos of 1575 and it does NOT have any orange stripe above the doors. The photo I just checked shows the car when clean.
The roof is supposed to be a different (i.e., darker) shade of grey than the upper sides -- it matches the LOWER sides. Just like the R-10's when they were delivered.
The teal blue and white scheme was my alltime favorite R-10 scheme, especially the first one with the narrow band at the belt rail. They must have been repainted quickly, because I never saw any R-10s with their original two-tone gray scheme, even in the spring of 1967.
The silver-and-blue scheme wasn't all that bad by itself, IMHO. The reason it has such negative connotations is because it coincided with the outbreak of the graffiti epidemic. The MTA wanted to standardize the exterior appearance of all subway, LIRR, and commuter rolling stock. The funny part was that the R-36s and single R-33s were not repainted in 1970-71. Only a handful of R-7s and R-9s were repainted, and that marked the first time they had ever had their exteriors repainted.
As for Ronan , there was a two-word editorial in one of the NY newspapers at the time: "Ronan stinks".
The silver-and-blue scheme wasn't all that bad by itself, IMHO. The reason it has such negative connotations is because it coincided with the outbreak of the graffiti epidemic. The MTA wanted to standardize the exterior appearance of all subway, LIRR, and commuter rolling stock.
Graffiti had nothing to do with my dislike (put mildly) for the silver/blue and green/grey paint scheme. It was a cheap phoney attempt to make the carbon steel cars look like the stainless steel equipment. It turned all the carbon steel cars into R-42 wanna-be's. What looked fine on the R-42's 44's and 46's looked horrible on the carbon steel cars. What they did with the R-10's in the sixties, with the WF blue/white paint scheme looked very good. They should have standardized all the carbon steel cars like that. You can't make a carbon steel painted car look like stainless steel. It doesn't work, and it doesn't look good. Also, that horrible pistachio green and light grey for the interior was another bomb. If they wanted light green and grey for the interior, they should have used a more "medium" shade of grey with the same mint green that you see on 484 in the Transit Museum. BTW, even with the yucky silver and blue, I thought it was an improvement when they began painting the interiors tan and orange. Instead of the loud orange, I would have used a medium or dark brown to offset the tan. My favorite modern interior colors is the light and medium blue that used to be on the inside of the R-11, R-33/36, R-32, R-38, R-40, R-40M and the R-42.
I agree the orange and tan (supposedly more graffiti-proof than the green and gray) was a tremendous improvement. It also helped that I associate that color scheme with the introduction of air conditioning on the R-33/36 mainline cars.
Your also right about the blue interior color scheme the TA favored in the 1960s. They never should have gotten rid of it.
Your also right about the blue interior color scheme the TA favored in the 1960s. They never should have gotten rid of it.
No, they shouldn't have gotten rid of it. That combination of two-tone light blue was subdued and pleasing to the eye. I can understand the wood grain and tan mica interiors of the R-44/46's, but on the cars with the painted interiors, they should have painted them all with the two-tone blue interior, everything all the way down to the R-1/9's. After all, the Steinways and WF cars on the 3rd Ave. El also had light blue interiors, along with the 3rd Ave. R-12's after them. So why not an R-1/9. I could even envision an R-1/9 with the blue/white World's Fair colors that the R-10's and the WF R-33/36's had, but not that yucky silver and blue R-42 wanna-be color scheme. Yeah. That would have been nice - all the carbon steel cars with blue/white World's Fair exteriors, and everything up to the R-42 in two-tone blue interiors. Not to mention R-32's with blue exterior doors. The R-38's wouldn't look bad with blue exterior doors either.
I loved that light blue shade on door interiors on the R-32s and other equipment of that era. And that dark blue on the R-32 door exteriors gave them a distinctive accent.
Personally, I feel the R-1/9s wouldn't have been the same with a different exterior color scheme. In actuality, their exteriors were never repainted, except for the few which received the silver and blue treatment.
"Routes not Built" A talk by Subway Historian Joseph Raskin starts at 7 PM Thursday, Dec. 15, 1990 Cooper Union -- Hewitt Bldg Auditorium $5 -- Astor St. Subway Stop or Eight St. Subway Subway Stop
Cooper Union is just south of St. Marks and The Bowery
Does anyone know why the quality of the evening rush-hour northbound 1/9 service seems to have deteriorated in the last few weeks? I take the 2 or 3 train from 42nd to 96th Streets where i change to the 1/9. This used to enable me to overtake at least 2 and sometimes 3 northbound 1/9s between 42nd and 96th but not any more - now the 1/9 service frequency is sporadic at best with long gaps of up to around 15 mins. between trains being noted recently. Also why are so many skip stop services operating as locals? Anyone out there got any answers?
I usually take the 1/9 from rector and then 2/3 from chambers to 42nd. I have also noticed this.
Last Summer I used to take the 1 from Penn Station to 231st St Marble Hill. found changing at 96th from the exp to the local only saved me 6 minutes. Why don t you just stay on the local. I still think they should make the 9 a Thru Express North of 96th St to 145th, the Express North of Dyckman St in PM and reverse in Local like they did in the Mid 50s.
"I still think they should make the 9 a Thru Express North of 96th St to 145th, the Express North of Dyckman St in PM and reverse in
Local like they did in the Mid 50s."
I, too, support this idea.
N Broadway Line
Good idea! As much as i love the subway I also want to get home asap in the evening and an Express PM rush hour #9 train between 96th and 145th would be welcome. I think its time the those folks living in the west Bronx got a better deal from the subway. Sometimes to avoid the crush/delays on the 1/9 I take a B or D from 47th St. to 59th where I change to an A to 168th or a D to 125th followed by a C to 168th St. before changing to a 1/9 as far as 231 St. but this is rarely quicker as the A train is generally slow - why o why does it have to be so slow north of 125th St.? - compounded by a lousy service frequency. Infact the A express is in real terms no quicker than the C local between 59th St. and 168th St. thereby defeating the purpose of the having an express section of the A train noth of 59th St. Maybe i should read a good book to pass the time on my comute and not be so envious of other people living in the Bronx who have far superior subway service - eg 35 mins. from 42nd St. to Bedford Park Blvd on the #4 train.
Or wait for an A train of R-38s, which can be easier said than done sometimes. It's gotten to the point where it can no longer be considered an express DASH along CPW. Now it's just an express run, and with the R-44s and R-68s, a leisurely stroll.
That stretch was definitely more exciting in the good old days...
There was a question raised a few days ago about an accident involving the Standards back in the "BC" era. (Before-Chrystie St)
There was an accident on November 21,1959 at the subway portals of the Sea Beach Line in which 2631,2866-67-68 and 2768-69-70 were damaged. These cars apparently were not repaired and were offered for scrap on December 12,1960 according to the NYD Bulletin.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A north-bound train entered the tunnel south of 59th street
and hit a work train. The M/M claimed the signals behind the work
train were displaying green aspects (a passenger at the "railfan"
window claimed he saw the same thing).
Train had to have been moving at a good clip to damage that many cars.
(The 2000's did not have pneumatic trip cocks which would
vent the brake pipe upon activation. They had trip "switches"
[electric] which would activate a valve which was located behind
a panel separating the two center doors in an "A" unit and the
"master" [center] car of a "B" unit. Cutting out this valve enabled
the 2000's to be used for clearing of snow because they couldn't
be "tripped".) Now, if the handle had been pulled ...
Put it this way: the BMT standards were a sure bet to come out of any collision with nothing more than a few scrapes and bruises. The poor unfortunate other vehicle, well....
This is one of those "Today in History" postings. The Sixth Avenue Line of the IND opened on December 15,1940. Three new subway routs began at that time. The BB (discontinued Nov 67),the D and the F. The R-9's were purchased to cover the increased service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Has it been that long? It seems like only yesterday.
(Not for me - I was born in 1951).
Next time I see Mark or Clarence from the Museum I will have to mention that we should have a party next year for the 50th Anniversary.
Just a reminder - March 24, 2000 is the 100th Anniversary of the groundbreaking for the subway. NOthing is planned by the Museum (at the moment).
Of those five new stations that comprised the Sixth Avenue line, all but one (in terms of tile design) have retained their original look. (The exception, of course, is 34th Street, which looked absolutely gorgeous prior to remodeling but whose looks have been ruined considerably since it was redone, I.M.H.O.)
The pre-lettered and -numbered (white lettering on black background) tiles were of a variation which would, in 1947, be used on those sections of 1904-era IRT stations which were selected for platform extension at that time (including Worth Street which was closed after the Brooklyn Bridge station platform was lengthened).
If you haven't noticed it from my last few postings I'm rumaging through the archives and coming accross little odd pieces of information. In the hope that I'm not annoying anyone here is another.The last Hi-V on the property; ACF Deckroof #3662 left the IRT for Branfrod on February 27,1961. The really nice part about this is thanks to the boys(and girls) at Branford 3662 is still running at 92. We should all be so lucky.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If you haven't noticed it from my last few postings I'm rumaging through the archives and coming accross little odd pieces of information. In the hope that I'm not annoying anyone here is another.The last Hi-V on the property; ACF Deckroof #3662 left the IRT for Branfrod on February 27,1961. The really nice part about this is thanks to the boys(and girls) at Branford 3662 is still running at 92. We should all be so lucky.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You're not annoying me. I appreciate solid factual information. I know that you take the time to look something up before you post, so that it is accurate info.
That's great!!!! Thanks for the historic tidbit. The Hi-V runs smoothly if you tell me regardless of her age. I like it, I like it!
Too bad she couldn't come out and play with us during the Autumn in NY event. As long as we care for this elderly car, she'll continue to run.
Any idea on when Seashore's Hi-V, #3352 left the property?
-Stef
Any idea on when Seashore's Hi-V, #3352 left the property?
3352's off Seashore's property? Where did it go?
--Mark
I think Stef wants to know when 3352 left IRT property. It was retired not long after the R-17s entered service and was off to Kennebunkport in 1956. There is a photo in Interborough Rolling Stock (the counterpart to Subway Cars of the BMT) of a flatbed truck with 3352 loaded onto it, ready for the journey to its new home. And Under the Sidewalks of New York has photos of how it looked when it arrived at Seashore and while undergoing restoration, both of which came from Jim Tebbetts (hope I got the spelling right, Jim).
3352 no longer has its center doors or fish belly sills. 3662 still has its center doors and, curiously, never had fish belly sills.
I don't mind at all! Keep it up! Some of thse facts are finding their way into the IND History revisions I'm wrapping up.
--Mark
Larry, be assured that your tidbits of info are in no way annoying. You have a wealth of information at your fingertips and it is always appreciated. Many thanks!
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a subway link to Brooklyn?
I've read somewhere that a subway tunnel between staten island and brooklyn was already started a long time ago, what I'd like to know is why hasn't it been finished!!
I live in Brooklyn, but have a lot of friends and family in S.I and I've gone there many times and it's a real pain in the ... to get there.
I also heard that the city also had plans to build a tunnel from St. George to lower Manhatten.
Personally, I'd build a bridge from Staten island to N.J and build a subway line along the N.j coast into lower manhatten or connect it to the the path train.
I think N.j could benefit from this link also. I'd even go further and extended the line from Tottenville into N.J.
Let me know what you think.
There has been extensive discussion of this issue on this site previously---there a was plan for a SI tunnel in the 20's, some work was started, but the project was never completed for mainly political reasons, I believe. There's not much chance of it happening now, in no small part because a majority of residents of Staten Islander(where I reside) would probably object. To be honest, while part of me would like to see it happen, if I had my druthers, I'd prefer it didn't.
Tunnel started in the 1920s. Brooklyn shaft possibly still exists, Staten Island shaft filled in during Verrazano Bridge construction. There is no money for a project of this size and more importantly virtually no one on S.I. wants it. You can take the S53 or S79 buses from Bay Ridge into Staten Island or buy a car and get an EZ pass.
The Narrows rail tunnel from S.I. to Brooklyn was actually started in the early 1920's and then quietly and quickly abandoned. As another subtalk poster correctly noted, shafts for the project exist on both sides of the Narrows. The best remaining evidence of this project is the Staten Island Railway. In 1925, then part of the Baltimore and Ohio RR, it was electrified with subway style third rail and equipped with 67' high-platform MU cars whose exterior dimensions were the same as BMT Standards. The plan was for SIRT trains to connect with the BMT near 59th St/4th Ave. and then continue to Manhattan. Later on some used SIRT equipment ran on the BMT, and of course today R44 equipment runs on the SI Railway.
Why was the Narrows tunnel killed? Speculation is that NYC Mayor John "Red Mike" Hylan was opposed because of his long time hatred of the BMT. NY State Governor Al Smith allegedly owned Pennsylvania RR stock, whose arch rival was the B & O, the owners of the SIRT. There has never been any official reason for the demise of this tunnel project.
Thirty years later, when the Verrazano Narrows Bridge was being designed, Robert Moses forbade construction of rail transit tracks on the bridge. This was consistent with Moses' anti-transit viewpoints, and unlike generations earlier when all four of the NYC East River bridges were built to include rail tracks.
>>>This was consistent with Moses' anti-transit
viewpoints, and unlike generations earlier when all four of the NYC East River bridges were built to
include rail tracks. <<
Heck, after the 1930s Moses didn't even put sidewalks on his bridges!
To him, if you didn't drive you weren't worth his time. Of course, he didn't drive...he was chauffered.
They way I remember it from Stan Fischler's (sp?) book, the tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn was kayoed by the Malbone wreck, which caused the bankruptcy of the old BRT, and of course, the emergence of the BMT.
The validity of the Hylan hates-the-subway-because-he-was-fired-from-it story is still under controversy.
According to Cudahy's book, "The Malbone Street Wreck" the BRT was pretty much bankrupt already and the wreck hardly put a dent in their financial woes, however I did like Fischler's book "The Subway" alot better and think he's a much better author so who knows?
Staten Island Railway (formerly the Staten Island Rapid Transit) has become a part of the metrocard network, negating a pressing need for a subway tunnel between Manhattan and SI, with free transfers between the subway and SIR.
Besides think of the great ferry ride you would miss!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Unless they build that freight rail tunnel to Brooklyn (using the old B&O bridge from SI to New Jersey) and bi-level it for subway tracks, Staten Island will never be connected into the rest of the system.
A subway alone could never justify the return investment, while the freight line would connect with the proposed deepwater port at Bush Terminal, and could also be used as part of a freight rail connection into New England, via the Hell's Gate Bridge, along with making frontage along the connecting railway more valuable for commercial/industrial businesses.
People could make money off of that and would back a tunnel if there was something in it for them.
Hi all,
I won't be updating or adding new maps for a while due to:
-My computer died on me, borrowed laptop- I can't make maps with laptops using trackball!!!
-Work has taken too much time and work too far from home, rather spend time with kids once I get home.
-Due to the fact I get so many emails letting me know of new updates/corrections for any of my 70+ maps that resides here at www.nycsubway.org, I don't know if I'm going to update any current/old maps here because of possible copyright infrinments, it's too easy for other companies to steal my maps, use them for their Ads and paid MTA for licensing fees when they actually used my maps. Once everything settled down for me, getting new computer, I will try to create new maps THAT does NOT look like official ones, this includes old historial maps.
-Lastly, I won't be online much these days for a while, if you're going to email me, please give few days for me to response.
Thanks for your time in reading this.
Michael Adler
Mike the Mailman
adler1969@aol.com
adler@nycsubway.org
Well, just the same, thanks for all you've done up to now---quite an accomplishment.
Well, just the same, thanks for all you've done up to now---quite an accomplishment.
May I echo those words. Also, what software have you been using to create those maps?
BMT LINES wrote:
::May I echo those words. Also, what software have you been using to create those maps?::
All of my 70+ maps were made with Microsoft's basic Paint program (Paintbrush for 3.11, Paint for Win95 & 98)
Mike the Mailman in Denver, Colorado
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
adler@nycsubway.org
All of my 70+ maps were made with Microsoft's basic Paint program (Paintbrush for 3.11, Paint for Win95 & 98)
Mike the Mailman in Denver, Colorado
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
adler@nycsubway.org
Wow! That must have been a painstaking task. I was expecting you to say that you made them with Illustrator or CorelDraw.
BMT LINES wrote:
::Wow! That must have been a painstaking task. I was expecting you to say that you made them with Illustrator or CorelDraw.::
At first, yes it was alot of work and numberous corrections to design format. after a few maps, it's a breeze as long as you know what you're going to design and how complex you'll design new maps.
Mike the Mailman in Denver, Colorado
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
adler@nycsubway.org
I don't think it's fair to us riders that the nyc subway workers purposely slow down the system because they can not strike by law
it took me 2 hours to get to work this morning, I know what you're gonna say " I didn't have a problem this morning?", well, I did! and many other were just as frustrated as we were.
We have nothing to do with this dispute, if we are late to work it's not gonna change things, it's gonna make riders think that the transit workers are the enemy, we all know who the bad guy is in this dispute.
There are other ways to bring attention the issues, all they have to do is bring the message directly to the riders in a positive way.
keep fighting for your rights, but please don't hurt us in the process.
That,s a very simplistic attitude, Tommy. When coal miners struck, do you think the public cared that the mine owners were losing money? It was only when they could not heat their homes or power plants were in danger of closing that people cared. When the airline baggage handlers strike, the passengers are not the enemy but who is inconvenienced? When telephone workers go on strike, we are not the enemy but who gets hurt? Very few strikes directly penalize the intended target without a public impact. That's why strikes have so much power.
The illegal job actions we've experienced in the last 2 or 3 days are deplorable as well as criminal. On Tuesday I missed my LIRR train and had to wait a considerable time for the next one. This AM I was tied up at Columbus Circle, listening to my radio, trying to determine how to get to Penn. Station and avoid the same fate. When you say you are not the enemy, perhaps not but you are the pawn that certain TWU factions seek to hurt in order to get their frustration and anger to the ears of those they can't reach in any other way. I'd love to see a few of them in jail and we likely will in at least one incident. However, your appeal that you are not the enemy is falling on deaf ears.
Are the Christie street (B,D,Q)tracks connected to the now closed south side tracks on the Manhatttan side?
I wonder because if the south side opens on the north side closes, where will the B,D,and Q go, more important, where will all the riders at Grand street go?
If there isn't a connection there should be one, that way Grand street will still be used by trains, otherwise it's a long walk to Canal street (N,R).
No. The 6th Ave. tracks connect only to the north side of the bridge in Manhattan. If/when they close, I would presume that a similar service plan to that of 86-88 will be introduced, basically cutting the B/D into 2 lines, with the Brooklyn B/D being routed up the Broadway BMT and the Q returning to its normal Broadway route. Grand St. will most likely be serviced by some sort of shuttle.
Things in this area have changed dramatically. Prior to 1986, the Grand St. stop was not that significant. The area around this station was not inhabited by the large numbers of Chinese immigrants as it is today. Shuttle service might not be enough now.
From Canal and Center streets (the southern exit from the N/Q Canal Street station) to Grand and Chrystie isn't that big a distance for people currently coming in from Brooklyn who get off at Grand, though the shuttle routing in Manhattan could be more of a main line service -- Grand Street to Queensbridge or, when 63rd St. opens, Continental Ave.
That is my exact concern. If the north side tracks close, a shuttle will not be enough. Perhaps the MTA should connect the B,D,Q to the south side tracks, how hard could it possibly be? Aren't the tracks pretty close to eachother before the bridge on the Manhattan side?
Building a crossover north of Grand could allow the Bronx-6th Ave portion of the D to be extended south to Grand St.
I'm no expert but in that event couldn't tunnel trains somehow connect to 6th Av by going up Nassau St and using the old IND connection to the IND? I assume they would have to change directions but it can be done.
For that to happen, a tunnel would have to be dug under the Broadway tracks coming off the bridge to get to Grand St. Otherwise an undesireable grade crossing would be necessary. Not to mention that the Nassau St. line's shorter stations would limit the size of any 6th Ave. train that uses it.
It can be, and was done once, in 1982. D trains were rerouted via the old KK connection, and stopped at Essex St. where a second motorman boarded the train. The train proceeded toward the Williamsburg Bridge, then reversed direction as the second motorman took over. When it returned to Essex St., the second motorman got off and the regular motorman moved to the other end of the train. The train then ran nonstop via the Montague St. tunnel to DeKalb, where it resumed normal service.
This arrangement isn't suitable for regular operation, as it is a bit time-consuming, but it's better than nothing. I still say they should have included a second set of tracks which tied into the Nassau St. line in the opposite direction.
It's probably workable for at least one of the lines (B, D or Q) during non-rush hours, but would tie everything up on the Willie B too much during the rush hours. Having a rush-hour and non-rush D routing would then probably be too confusing for most riders to remember, so I doubt it will happen.
I'm no expert but in that event couldn't tunnel
trains somehow connect to 6th Av by going up Nassau
St and using the old KK connection to the IND? I
assume they would have to change directions but it
can be done.
I'm no expert but in that event couldn't tunnel
trains somehow connect to 6th Av by going up Nassau
St and using the old KK connection to the IND? I
assume they would have to change directions but it
can be done.
Yes it could be done. It would be quite cumbersome and clumsy, however. Those trains going up Nassau St. would have to reverse just east of Essex and tie up any inbound trains coming off the WB Bridge, before going through the Chrystie St. connection and going up 6th Ave. Then again, who knows? Maybe the TA will opt for that!
From what I've been reading I get the impression that the Manhattan Bridge route is going the way of the 5 cent cup of coffee. What I cannot figure out is why the tracks on the bridge cannot be refurbished for train use. Is the bridge is that poor of condition? I always looked forward to crossing the bridge on the Sea Beach as a boy because it meant I was going to Brooklyn to see my grandparents, the Dodgers, or having a day of it at Coney Island. Surely, something can be done to make the Manhattan Bridge useful for transit insteadd of building another rat infested tunnel that does nothing but clog up traffic all along the way.
I'm sure that one day all 4 tracks on the bridge will be in use. Unfortunatly the design of the tracks on the outside causes so much stress on the steel frame and twisting of the support struts, the entire bridge has to be repaired and rebuilt. 70 years of damage has to be repaired, and the bridge has to be strenghtened to handle the load.
The other problem, as has been mentioned before, is the side of the bridge the B/D/Q is currently on has always had more traffic than the current N side. Before Chrystie Street, the N/QB used the northeast side, while only the rush hour Nassau Street trains used the southwest side, helping to cause the twisting.
Perhaps reconfiguring the bridge, with all Manhattan bound Bway and 6th Ave. trains using one side and southbound trains using the other side might solve the problem. I'm also told that having trains on the outside is another problem, as the ends of the bridge constantly bend under the tremendous weight of trains passing, causing severe stress on the supports under the much lighter inner roadway. That's a problem that can only be rectified by removal of all train service on the bridge.
The smart thing to do to insure bridge reliabilty in the
long term, other than constructing a new tunnel as outlined
in transit's east river crossing study is to reconfigure the
tracks and lower roadway. Move both sets of tracks into the
center of the bridge and relocate the lower roadway to the
outsides. Of course city DOT would never do this, aside from
the cost this would involve closing both sets of subway tracks
as well as the lower roadway for at least four to five years
using the overly drawn out construction schedule that is in place
on the south side since 1988.
Why can't they move the roadway to the outside, and put the tracks in the center?
Subway service is more important than the auto traffic across the bridge, is there a way possible to re-design the bridge while keeping trains running?
Does the MTA have any long range plans regarding this bridge?
There isn't enough room to put 4 tracks. And any solution requires the ability for 6th Ave and Boadway trains to use the bridge on seperate tracks, or tunnels that would replace it.
"I'm also told that having trains on the outside is another problem, as the ends of the bridge constantly bend under the tremendous weight of trains passing, causing severe stress on the supports under the much lighter inner roadway."
If they're doing a complete overhaul of the bridge, how hard would it be for them to put the tracks on the inner portion? If trains on the outside is the problem, putting them on the inside should fix the problem.
The tracks should have been placed in the middle when the bridge was built.
It shouldn't be hard from an engineering stand point.
But dealing with politicans and their auto biased policies
are another matter entirely.
"It shouldn't be hard from an engineering stand point.
But dealing with politicans and their auto biased policies
are another matter entirely. "
I'm not an engineer or a politician, but it's probably a lot harder to make those changes AND keep the bridge open to both rail and vehicle traffic during that time.
Chuck
Here's how it could be done (assuming it ever would get done):
1- Keep the Broadway tracks closed an build 2 car lanes where the Broadway tracks are at this time.
2-Tear out the center traffic lanes and build 3 subway tracks
3- Tear out the 6th ave tracks and build 1 more track and 2 more car
lanes.
4- Have crossovers at each end for Broadway and 6th Ave- Each pair would be ONE way- The two Manhattan tracks (6th ave and Broadway) and then the 2 brooklyn Tracks.
Of course once the center tracks are completed there would be a brief disruption while the tracks are configured to go to the new cenetr tracks
I prefer this solution.
1. Build the Rutgers-DeKalb connection.
2. Build a Chambers -- Grand connection using the old link to the Manhattan Bridge, and a new crossover.
3. During all hours except rush hours do not use the bridge. Run three services through Montigue (ie. N, R, B) and three through Rutgers (F, D, Q). The B would serve Grand Street via Broad Street, the D would switch to the express track at W. 4th.
4. During rush hours, run just one service on each side of the bridge -- ie. send the D to Grand Street via bridge, and the N to Canal Street via bridge.
With the bridge in use just five hours per day, five days per week, subway traffic over it (and therefore metal fatigue) would be reduced by 75 percent from todays levels, with maintenance falling by a like amount -- and easier to schedule. Perhaps this would be enough to preserve the bridge long term. If not, the connections would allow you to replace it with a two-track tunnel, rather than four.
Too complicated, and it limits service on all lines. The best thing to do is build a tunnel for the B and D and put the Broadway tracks in the middle of the brige for the N and Q. Problem solved, and service remains unchanged.
(The best thing to do)
The only problems with a new tunnel are time and money. The last new tunnel is going to end up costing a cazillion, and taking 30+ years. I'm interested in what can be dome right now, at a reasonable cost, to provide some measure of protection against a bridge meltdown.
It won't take 30 years to build 2 tubes across the East River. Even the 63rd. St. tunnel, while being much more complicated, took only 19 years to build. With a shorter distance and no Roosevent Island to tunnel through, it shouldn't take more than 10. Which is about how long it would take to build the things you've laid out.
Put tracks in the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. Nobody uses it anyway.
"Nobody uses it anyway."
Busses use it
They can use the new roadways on the Manny B when the tracks are removed ...
No they cannot, it creates a roundabout route downtown. That's also why cars use the Battery Tunnel.
Robert Moses must be spinning in his grave ....
--Mark
It's too hot to spin in hell ...
Not true at all. I hear they've got him rotating slowly on a spit, and periodically Jane Jacobs comes over to baste him in his own juices.
This obviously comes from the perspective of someone who can't drive. I'm sure it's a lot of fun to have had no highways and clog into four lane grade thoroughfares. I'm sure it would be a lot of fun to live in the economically depressed region this would be without highways, not to mention not having as many parks, beaches and Lincoln Center among other things.
Robert Moses never liked the Battery Tunnel.
No, he was infatuated with putting up yet another eyesore of a bridge in it's place. Thankfully he was stopped, or we New Yorkers would be paying even more millions to repair another rusty mess of an East River bridge today.
And one that would run right through Battery Park at that!
This is true. It would certainly help in the future, if
transit ran a more balanced service on the bridge. How about
N and Q trains on the sout side and B and D trains on the
north side. I think it's a starting basis for a plan.
That was the old configuration, pre 1986. However, with the Q being a very limited one way rush hour train then, the bridge was still unbalanced with more service running over the northern (6th Ave.) tracks. However, with the expanded Q service, balance might be achieved, with both sides having a similar number of trains crossing each side every day.
I'm not sure that the lack of balance is the key problem - I seem to recall reading somewhere that when two trains entered the bridge going in the same direction, even though the "twisting" of the structure was minimized, the actual structural stress to the bridge was worse than if the two trains had passed over the bridge seperately - the "balancing" of the oposing stresses or wear patterns would therefore not seem to help in prolonging the bridge's useful life.
subfan
Yet another reason to start digging tunnels...now.
"Yet another reason to start digging tunnels...now."
Which one, 6th Avenue (B,D) or Broadway (N, Q)? Or Both?
Better yet, should it be a two track tunnel that feeds into the Broadway and 6th Avenue lines? Or, possibly a third track for peak direction B express trains (skipping dekalb)?
N Broadway Line
The East River Crossing study suggested a four track tunnel
two for Broadway services two four sixth ave services located
in an area just north of the Manhattan bridge.
I would guess if they built a tunnel they would extend the N/Q line straight across Canal with a flying junction connection at Chrystie with the B/D, then turn it south at Canal and Allen/Pike Streets and across the East River.
Ideally, the tunnel would hook into one side of the current Manhattan Bridge connection to the DeKalb station, and the other side could be linked to the Rutgers tunnel, so the B could share trackage with the F, while the D/N/Q used the new tunnel.
This plan limits capacity on all lines (B, D, N, and Q). 2 tracks could still be retained on the bridge, if they were put in the center (like the J and M on the Willy B). Why not replace the Sixth Ave line with a tunnel (because it carries more service all day long) and move the N and Q to the center roadway on the bridge. I'm sure this plan wouldn't cost much more than the Rutger/Dekalb connection and the remaining work to be done on the bridge combined.
No, 4 tracks are needed to maximize capacity on all the lines that go through Dekalb. My idea would be to build tunnels for the B and D, and put the N and Q on tracks running down the center of the Manhattan Bridge , with cars taking the old outside trackways.
ChrisR,
This is why I suggested three tracks instead of 4 - they all feed into dekalb avenue. So, where's the lack of compacity? Not unless the N will be skipping that station as well.
By the way, some of you aren't aware of the track configuration after the bridge. But, this has to be taken into consideration before the tunnel is built. For instance, someone mentioned the tunnel being built north of the bridge. Won't that interfer with the current setup?
Lets say the tunnel is built and it consist of two tracks. Both trackage will be shared by the B/D/N/Q lines. Someone said earlier that it will not provide enough compacity. Why not, most of the trains goes to dekalb anyway. Another idea will be to have both the N and B bypass that station with the Q and D stoping there. That will surely provide plenty of compacity. Lets say a third track is added for the B and N in the peak direction. That will surely provide plenty of compacity. What about opening up the rutger tunnel for B/D trains into dekalb Avenue? That's extra compacity there too.
Moving the tracks in the center of the bridge is the best idea thus far. Meanwhile, a new 2 track tunnel could be built for the B and D lines (the second Avenue Line will take over the Grand Street Station and a connection with the J/M/Z will be made. Also, the tracks that are cut off for the B, D second Avenue Station will be restored to it's original plan). However, I don't think the transit is going to go for both plans. Tooooo Expensive.
In reference to cost, the bridge seems to be the most attractive plan. But as a long term goal, the tunnel supersedes the idea of keeping the bridge open to trains.
What does everyone think? Is it possible for one of these plans to go through?
N Broadway Local
There isn't enough room on the center roadway for 3 tracks. 2 bridge tracks are just barely enough to serve Dekalb Ave and the southern BMT lines, but just barely, and with several consequences (limiting headways on every line to a minimum of 6 minutes).
There needs to be 4 totally independent tracks to connect Dekalb Ave and Manhattan. The simple way to do this is to build one tunnel for the B and D, and to put the Broadway N and Q on new tracks in the center of the bridge. I think this project should be one of the main priorities of the MTA's future construction plans, with only the 2nd Ave. line being more important.
"with only the 2nd Ave. line being more important."
The 2nd Avenue line should be killed at Whitehall Street; not providing any other option because of cost issues.
N Broadway Local
Whitehall St? It would be a major miracle if they just build this stubway off of 63rd. St. A line running the length of 2nd Ave. will never be built, ever.
I've argued at work (where a study is underway) that they should build the Rutgers-DeKalb connection NOW -- BEFORE the area under the Manhattan bridge becomes redeveloped, something which would inflate costs and invite lawsuts if they decided to build it later. Then service over the bridge could be limited to RUSH HOURS ONLY.
Even with that connection, Brooklyn's rush hour service cannot be accomodated without the bridge or a replacement tunnel. By limiting service to rush hours and using the full capacity of the Rutgers and Montigue tunnels, however, Manhattan Bridge traffic could be reduced by 75 percent from today's levels. There would be just one service on each side of the bridge, five hours per day, five days per week. That might be enough to make the bridge last, since metal fatigue would be lower.
To make the plan work fully, you'd need a direct Chambers to Grand connection also, so Grand Street Station could be served when the bridge was closed.
No chance of this idea getting out of the Department. Too controversial. If the economic unit (me, my boss, and my bosses boss) keeps pushing it, perhaps the study will just never be published. F___KING bureaucracy!
What do you think of the plan I posted yesterday -- to at least take the stress off the bridge by building a connection or two. I've at least convinced some people here that it's a good option, since no one is will to pay for a new tunnel.
You guys have to remember the Willy B and Manny B were built 90 years ago, Back then the el cars that used them were smaller, and lighter, and were mostly wooden. Cars were few and far between and trucks fewer. No one back then could forcast how heavy the rolling stock would be, or how many cars, trucks, busses would use the bridges. in the 80-90 s
(No one could have predicted)
Well, now that we know, why won't anyone do anything about it?
You guys have to remember the Willy B and Manny B were built 90 years ago, Back then the el cars that used them were smaller, and lighter, and were mostly wooden. Cars were few and far between and trucks fewer. No one back then could forcast how heavy the rolling stock would be, or how many cars, trucks, busses would use the bridges. in the 80-90 s
Weren't the first trains to use the Manny B the Standards?
Yes. BMT standards were the only cars to use either of these bridge lines until the Triplex and Multi's showed up.
Yes. BMT standards were the only cars to use either of these bridge lines until the Triplex and Multi's showed up.
In non-revenue service the BMT (BRT) used to route BU's from the Eastern Division to Coney Island Yard by running them over the Williamsburg Bridge, down the Centre St. subway to Chambers St., over the Manhattan Bridge, down the 4th Ave. line and down to Coney Island Yard through the Culver or West End Lines.
On the Manhattan Bridge, yes, since the BMT standards inaugurated service over it in 1915. The Williamsburg Bridge has seen trains operating over it since 1908. Wooden el cars were used then, and were still plying its tracks until the Broadway el was upgraded in 1916, at which time the standards took over.
LIRR trains (MP-41's?)also travelled over the Williamsburg Bridge, using the Chestnut St. connection with the Broadway El just west of Crescent St. beginning in 1908. This was the LIRR's first venture into Manhattan, preceding the Pennsylvania tunnels by a few years.
Yeah, but the MP41's were pretty much subway car size and style, alot like the Low-V's. If I'm not mistaken they went to Rockaway Park, both via the Rockaway Branch (the nowadays IND) and also via the LIRR Far Rockaway branch through the Five Towns.
It can be done and indeed has been done - for reroutes when one track on the Manhattan Bridge had to be closed. But due to the need to reverse direction at Essex St. (for northbound trains) or just past it on the Williamsburg Bridge (for southbound trains), only one direction of traffic can be rerouted this way at any given time. It is not a viable route for trains operating in both directions, and therefore cannot be a "regular" route for any trains. It also can't be done during rush hour due to the delays inherent in the direction reversal.
The real trouble with this bridge is that it was poorly designed ,poorly maintained and poorly built. From what I understand, this bridge was rushed to completion.It's another Queensboro Bridge,[had rail service removed due to age and stress].The T.A. can remove the B,D,Q lines by building a short tunnel connector in Brooklyn[Rutgers Street Tunnel to the line under Flatbush Avenue] Also some train could be funneled into the Nassau St. line[i.e '2 Ave routing']or down Water St. to South Ferry. There are may ways to overcome this shortsighted problem inwhich once again poor planning has caused AT OUR EXPENCE!!!
The TA needs to admit that replacement tunnels HAVE to be built.
The real trouble with this bridge is that it was poorly designed ,poorly maintained and poorly built. From what I understand, this bridge was rushed to completion.It's another Queensboro Bridge,[had rail service removed due to age and stress].
The Queensboro Bridge only handled 5-car wooden el trains and trolleys, as compared with 10-car steel subway trains that the Manhattan Bridge handles.
Supposedly, a cantaliever bridge like the Queensborough should be better suited to handle rail cars than a suspension bridge like the Manahttan. And the Queensborough only had rail service crossing it for 25 years, so unless it was really crappily built, stress shouldn't have been a problem there.
They should clone Hell Gate Bridge. It could handle subway trains day in and day out and not even break a sweat. One word describes it: overbuilt with a capital O.
Actually, the 59th St. bridge would be the most ideal East River bridge to use for subway service. Blame politics for the prevention of the BRT to put subway tracks on it. That's originally what they wanted to do. When it was denied, they were forced to build the 60th St. tunnel.
The only reason the el tracks were removed from the bridge was because the el in Manhattan was being demolished. Stress had nothing to do with it.
The real trouble with this bridge is that it was poorly designed ,poorly maintained and poorly built. From what I understand, this bridge was rushed to completion.It's another Queensboro Bridge,[had rail service removed due to age and stress].The T.A. can remove the B,D,Q lines by building a short tunnel connector in Brooklyn[Rutgers Street Tunnel to the line under Flatbush Avenue] Also some train could be funneled into the Nassau St. line[i.e '2 Ave routing']or down Water St. to South Ferry. There are many
ways to overcome this shortsighted problem inwhich once again poor planning has caused AT OUR EXPENCE!!!
Why can't the MTA just connect the two sides (the 6th avenue IND tracks to the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks. They aren't that far apart, how hard could it possibly be?
It wouldn't be that hard, so long as you didn't mind trains crossing at grade. Building a flying junction so a Brooklyn-bound D doesn't get held up by a Manhattan-bound N would take a lot more time.
And those few places where trains cross at grade are the worst bottlenecks in the system. Not an acceptable notion, especially for an area that heavily travelled.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The issue isn't getting the N back on the bridge. That can stay in the Montague (for now). The real problem is getting the BDQ to Chrystie via the south side tracks. And if all the trains were going to the same place, a grade crossing would work just fine, since you'd never have trains running on intersecting routes at the same time.
I think he means connecting the south side tracks to the Grand St. station only, so service would remain identical while the north side is closed. I suggested this months ago, but was told that significant excavation would be required to clear a path from the south side tracks to the Grand St. portal.
I agree, the Nassau Street line could be put to better use.
N Broadway Line
correction
I'm no expert but in that event couldn't tunnel
trains somehow connect to 6th Av by going up Nassau
St and using the old KK connection to the IND? I
assume they would have to change directions but it
can be done.
The southside tracks are connected to the unused Broadway express tracks which travel through the unused(except as a transfer between the J/M/Z and 6) Canal Street station.
On the Manhattan side, they lead to Broadway and up to the 63rd Street tunnel and in Brooklyn, the north and south side tracks along with the Montague Street tunnel, forms the Brighton, West End, Sea Beach and 4th Avenue Lines.
Check the track maps for more information.
Living out here in California, the averted transit strike did not affect me directly, but indirectly I was concerned as hell. However, my concern may not be what others were concerned with. As a union man myself (American Federation of Teachers AFL-CIO and a Republican if you can digest that combo), my concern was with the TWU. Are they happy with the settlement or is their going to be a residiue of bitterness? Too many people on this website have castigated the union as greedy. My question is this: Are their jobs vital for the healthy economic life of the city? My answer would be yes. Then they deserved to be well paid. Management will always try to cut corners while heaping praise on labor, but let labor start militating for their rights and management has a fit. Too bad. I rejoice that there was no strike. But I will rejoice more if I know the TWU got a fair shake and a good contract.
if you ask New Directions they are very unhappy-they say we were sold out.New Directions is so vocal that the judge extended the restraining order to avoid slowdowns, eyc.
If you ask Willie James it is good.
I'll wait unril I can reas the contract--especially the portions relating to stations (but there is a rumor of split shifts and closing of more booths overnight and a reduction ion Lunch relief jobs).
For that, I strongly suggest you contact your E-Board members such as Marty Goodman. The memorandum of understanding will not define the givebacks line by line but rest assured, swing shifts are in there and that would further reduce your chances of going to lunch. This is by far the worst contract ever proposed to the department of Car Equipment. Their pick rights become pick preferences as enjoyed by supervision. If you slack off, the superintendant may ship you out. This might hurt those who do work hard too as some barns with low MDBFs may insist on transfering these workers who prefer a certain location. Because of increased complaints of cab fatigue with proof as the Williamsburg Bridge Collision, I would strike down the contract on both the Track and Stations givebacks. Swing shifts proposed in Stations will force workers to stay up longer to do the same work. If it goes into effect in Stations, that will definately set up the process in RTO where a great portion of trains are layed up between rush hours with minimum use for crews. Track will be getting a 12 hour work day for the weekend, resulting in a four day week. Like I said, do some investigation and get ALL the facts before you mail in the ballot.
Since Guiliani took away the union's main weapon in this battle (threats of striking), the TWU made out well. I'd be interested to see what would happen if the rank and file reject the deal.
CHRIS:
PLEASE DO ALL TWU MEMBERS A FAVOR AND DO NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS PERTAINING TO UNION MATTERS SINCE YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER!
And as far as HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS taking away the union's "main weapon" we would have been more then glad to be fined $25,000 for the first day and doubled everyday after because once he found out no one could pay it he would have to jail us for contempt of court thus we avoid the Taylor Law fines because we can't work due to being in jail. Either way no serivce
THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!
Dear Beast:
I will continue to voice my opinion on any darn thing that interests me. If you have problems with what I say, you're free to counter them. As far as me not being able to comment on union matters, I ask you: Why? As a taxpayer, I'm paying the transit workers' salary. As a rider, I have an interest in seeing the system operate smoothly. This gives me the right to comment on anything.
It's called debate. look it up, ok?
Well Chris, if you're paying the transit workers salaries why don't you give them a damn raise. Or how about giving all the city workers a raise. As a cop I just loved when a motorist told me they paid my salary. It gave me an excuse to help with their safety to make sure every headlight, taillight, signal, wiper, seatbelt, etc, etc, etc was in perfect working order and to summons everything that wasn't!!!
If you can convince me that your performance has improved over what it was when the last contract was agreed upon, then I'd be all for a raise. Hell, raises for everyone, fiscal sanity be damned!
(ok, that's my last shot fired in this war)
In 1992, the total payroll of local govenment workers in NYC accounted for 10 percent of all the payroll earned in the city, far above the national average of about eight percent.
In 1997 (98 available next June), the city was almost down to the national average -- even though the TA and CUNY are counted as city payroll (for historical reasons) by this data source, and even though many other areas of the nation do not have public water, public sewer, public trash collection, and professional fire departments. As of 1997, public employees in NYC were NOT overstaffed or overpaid.
Other sources indicate private payroll has risen since then. Public workers now deserve to keep up. Suddenly in the last two years the government can't recruit competent employees. Coincidence? Hardly!
Most people don't look at the numbers. They are either in favor of more money for public employees, or against, regardless of the facts. My motto is arithmetic, no ideology.
P.S. in the suburbs and upstate local government accounts for over 11 percent of all payroll. THEY are overpaid and overstaffed.
[In 1997 (98 available next June), the city was almost down to the national average -- even though the TA and CUNY are counted as city payroll (for historical reasons) by this data source, and even though many other areas of the nation do not have public water, public sewer, public trash collection, and professional fire departments. As of 1997, public employees in NYC were NOT overstaffed or overpaid.]
It seems to me though that it could fairly be argued though that a) public employees in many localities are overpaid; b) some public employees in New York are overpaid, while other, such as teachers, are underpaid (and workfare recipients are scarcely paid at all); c) the deployment of public employees is remarkably inefficient, so that, for example, each subway train is overstaffed by a factor of two, while stations fall apart for lack of renovation and maintenance.
One thing I think is getting a little lost in the debate over whether this was a fair contract is the outrageousness of the restraining order's prohibitions on the union leaders' even being able to suggest a strike.
This seems like a pretty clear first amendment violation to me. Can anyone tell me the judge's reasoning for why it isn't?
I must also admit that the part about not even uttering the word "strike" made me uneasy, as big a free speech believer that I am. The judge's legal thinking must have been that since striking by a municipal worker is a crime, then speaking about a strike was advocating an illegal act.
Another thing I didn't like was the massive fine against the union's treasury if any of it's members were to strike. Since Monday, the TWU leadership has bent over backwards to follow the injunction. It's not fair to penalize the union for the renegades of it's membership.
The judge is probably a Giuliani appointee.
Probably not. Many of the judges sitting in state court are leftovers from the Cuomo era.
I wonder what's going on. It seems likely that we would have heard from someone by now. I look for news on a ratification vote, or even a description of the deal, and can't find it.
Many of the regulars here pointed out that the $$$ issue was not the biggest one to them. Naturally, the media focused on this because it is the easiest to understand.
I imagine many of the transit workers don't yet know the details. I'm hopeful that as they read about the agreement they'll fill us in on how many of the issues were ultimately settled.
Also, don't forget that they were probably up pretty late last night -- and may have had a full shift today or tonight where they'll hear about the details for the first time. (I noticed that the work crews that I saw during my AM commute seemed to be doing more discussion than usual).
Also, many of the posts from the TA workers seem to come overnight.
Chuck
The text of the agreement is at http://www.1010wins.com/homepage/contract.html.
Hmmm.
1. Consolidating TA buses and MABSTOA: wasn't MABSTOA represented by a different union? Looks like a big carrot for the TWU there.
2. TA swallows rising health care insurance premiums: wouldn't it be better to pay higher raises, let the workers see the money, then let them see the health care industry take it away from them? The TA gets no credit with the workers for this one. Better to allow the TA's health contributions to rise by no more the inflation rate, and let the workers see what the SOBs in health care are doing to us.
3. Agrees to support a pension increase at the state. The MTA IS the state. Again, wouldn't it be better to give the workers the money and let them fund their own pension?
4. Flexible spending, Transit-Chek, and 401K -- since these tax breaks cost the company almost nothing, if there was no union to negotiate them with, TA workers would have them already.
5. No layoff to December 15, 2002. Ie. until just after the next election for Governor.
Where is the part about rules violation and disinplinary hearings and such. I thought that was an orginal sticking point.
Lou, I think that's why the more radical faction, New Directions, is so PO'd: the disciplinary grievances weren't adequately addressed.
We can expect work slow-downs on various lines until this pact is ratified (if TWU's Executive Board okays it).
Doug aka BMTman
Executive Board passed it as is 25 to 20. Close if you ask me.
(25-20 -- close)
On the other hand, no one can afford to seem too happy, lest the deal blow up. If the vote was unanimous, the Mayor would say we-wuz-robbed. Notice how the MTA board doesn't want to vote until the TWU ballots come back? If the MTA Board approves enthusiastically, the TWU members would vote it down.
Expect the Mayor's reps to vote against it at the MTA board. Expect the MTA Board to start talking fare increase. I'm in favor. $1.80 during rush hours only, with a 10-12 percent increase in the daily, weekly, and monthly cards.
3. The MTA is NOT the state. The State is the NY State Legislature, the only group of people who can directly affect our pension. As for funding our pension, we already do to the cost of 5.3% of our salary. This section makes the MTA pay part of the pension withholding - something that they do NOT currently do - until such time as Legislature changes it or the contract expires in 2002, when it falls back to us.
13. You missed Section 13, which sas that all of the major changes will be contained in the appendices, which you will note have NOT been made public yet.
I will be in NYC from the evening of the 19th until midday on the 23rd. What should I look out for on the subway? I will be on the E, 6, 1/9, and the 2 or 3. If it snows, I might go out on the 7. What are the best places to get pics on the 7 on the elevated part?
Thanks.
On the 19th, take the #2 to the 239th St. yard and watch some of the R142A's being delivered!! -Nick
What are the best places to get pics on the 7 on the elevated part?
Queensboro Plaza for certain. If you can, go to the Municipal Parking Garage. You can find a nice perch to photograph the el from on that, but definately on the station itself. You can get some nice shots of Flushing-bound trains making the curve into the station. You can also get some nice shots of the Astoria trains on the curve to and from the Astoria Line from Queensboro Plaza. Another good thing to do is get the front window on the express and shoot each local station as you go through.
SNOW!!!????? Bite your tongue!!!
SNOW!!!????? Bite your tongue!!!
Why? You can get some nice pix on the Flushing line in the snow. Have you seen Dave's "Snow Day" pix on the Flushing Line during the March 1996 Blizzard? Nice pix! IRT Flushing Line: Subway Snow Day
I've seen them. I it won't happen. I was hoping to get the redbirds and the snow in. Last snow day, I spent on a railfan trip most of which was underground. The only elevated part was the 2 and 5 between 149th Street and Intervale Avenue.
Your handle is unusual.
I'm assuming you're from DC. Is this right?
I'm just wondering, because it's an unusal name. What made you decide to use it?
Yes I am from the DC area. It stands for WMATA General Manager and then my initials, a title which I hope to have when I am older.
You're not Orrin Hatch, are you?:):):)
What are the best places to get pics on the 7 on the elevated part?
Recommendations:
- BMT Lines' suggestion of Queensborough Plaza is right on. Get to the top of the municipal parking garage and grab some great shots of the Flushing & Astoria ELs. In fact, you could spend a few hours at just this station alone.
- Hunters Point Ave: Get off and exit to the street. Perch yourself on the overpass over the LIRR and grab some shots of LIRR, NJ Transit AND the 7 as it exits the portal from Hunters Point Ave. Unobstructed view of the El as it turns left into 45th Rd / Courthouse Square.
- 46th / Bliss, facing east (Flushing)
- 61st / Woodside. Get off the train and go onto the LIRR platform just below.
- 103rd St, again facing Flushing. From the Manhattan bound platform, good shots of the expresses coming off (or on) the higher level express tracks can be had. Same for 111th St.
- Willets Point / Shea Stadium. Get off and walk over the Corona Shop for lots of WF Redbirds resting in the sunshine.
Have fun!
--Mark
100% TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH YOU MR MARK!!
thats what i did last november 1 thru 5 1999 RAILFAN VIDIEOS
DAY AND NIGHT WITH A SONY TR 86 IN THE LP 4 HOUR MODE
EVEN NIGHT SHOTS ALSO EXPRESS AND LOCAL TRACKS GONING TO FLUSHING
AND TIMES SQUARE BACK AND FOURTH ( THE VIDEO IS GREAT ) !!!!!!!
still pictures at the stations like 46th bliss 33rd street rawson
times square main street crona yards shea stadum etc....
THIS IS WHAT NYC CITY SUBWAY RESOURCES IS ALL ABOUT!!
hint use kodak 400 speed film for best results on redbirds!!
good shooting and enjoy yourself thank you !!
salaamallah@yahoo.com
Makes me want to come to New York next June and take pictures. SeaBeach Fred, I change planes at LAX come along too
SEPTA is having a rough week.
A couple of years ago, at the Cecil B. Moore/Temple U. station on the BSS, a small boy lost his foot in an accident involving a SEPTA escalator(of all the times SEPTA's escaltors worked..)
Seriously, the boy's parents sued SEPTA and in a court victory, the boy was awarded $50 million dollars($25 M for two separate causes) and the mother was awarded $1 million plus $65 for the cost of the boys shoes at the time of the accident.
SEPTA is fighting this, stating a law that puts a legal award taken from a public agency at no more than $200,000.
I doubt the family will ever see all, if any, of that money and if they do prepare for Amtrak-like SEPTA fares.
Thoughts?
That's why there are Appeals Courts. Most courts of appeal will overturn or SERIOUSLY reduce the amount. BTW, of the 51 million dollars, the lawyers will get a serious chunk of change.
Any wonder why lawyers are ranked BELOW used car salesmen?
SEPTA has a cap of $250K and this is what it's trying to get. The case was taken from an accident case to a civil rights violation (somehow!) and this enabled the cap to be lifted. The case is a shame - a 6-year-old lost a foot due to an alleged escalator problem - but $51 M is obscene. And just how is this a civil rights case? Lawyers - gotta love 'em.
As a SEPTA customer, I don't think the fares will be going up soon to pay out the $51 M. Interestingly enough, SEPTA probably hurt itself a little by countersuing the mother, alleging that the boy's sneakers were untied and the loose laces caught in the escalator, causing the problem in the first place. The media is now saying this tactic probably riled the jury.
What about insurance?
SEPTA is self-insured. This means that they set aside a fixed amount each year to cover claims and judgements. At most, they might have $35 million available for the entire year's worth of injuries, etc.
In addition to countersuing the boy's mother, claiming it was her fault, SEPTA also withheld a small mountain of evidence that the authority
* had skipped recent, scheduled annual inspections on this elevator
* knew that the step chain was defective and likely to injure somebody
The Inquirer reported yesterday that (begin block quote)
According to Shareif's lawyer, the documents revealed:
SEPTA stopped doing preventive maintenance on many escalators in 1994.
On Oct, 30, 1996, a SEPTA calendar provided to the court showed that the escalator was due for a routine maintenance check. The maintenance was never carried out.
On Nov. 8, 1996 - 19 days before the accident - a SEPTA memo stated the escalator needed repairs to its chain and that an annual inspection had not been done.
Shareif's accident was 19 days later, on Nov. 27.
Kline said that "there was a deliberate concerted effort to conceal documents by SEPTA."
But SEPTA employees testified yesterday that their failure to release the memos was not deliberate.
"SEPTA chose not to present a defense to the charges, frankly, because we realized we had not done a thorough job collecting and presenting all the appropriate records," the agency's statement said. "We believe, however, this was a matter only of oversight. We are aware of no deliberate intent to hide or suppress evidence."
end block quote).
I am a SEPTA customer and advocate, and I feel that this huge claim might finally convince SEPTA to take safety seriously. I haven't been on this board in a while, so I don't know if you've read about the recent bus inspection scandal.
It does make me heartsick to think how the city and riders will end up paying this bill. It's reminiscent of how we had to pay Ramona Africa (of MOVE) all that money after she got out of jail.
Personally, I think the jury was just trying to stick it to SEPTA.
Wouldn't you?:)
I'm sure an appeals court will reduce the award substantially. And I do agree that the lawyers are just self-serving jerks out to make a hill of money. However, I've also come around to seeing some of the benefits of their "crusading". Without the fear of lawsuits, a lot of safety standards would never get enforced. So what if an agency fines you a couple of thousand dollars? -- it's still cheaper than paying more to keep things running safely. There are clearly excesses, but I have a toddler at home, and is she lost a foot due to the negligence of a public agency, I'd be boiling mad and want justice.
Although I won't be coming to NYC this weekend to participate in the
Polo Grounds Shuttle walk, can anyone tell me what this walk includes?
Is it some sort of a tour? Where does it start and end?
Although I won't be coming to NYC this weekend to participate in the
Polo Grounds Shuttle walk, can anyone tell me what this walk includes?
Is it some sort of a tour? Where does it start and end?
Those taking part will meet at the 167th St. station on the 4-Train. They will go to street level and follow the el to 162nd St. Then they will walk down to Anderson Ave., where the Jerome-Anderson station used to be. They will probably climb up to platform level. Part of the platform is still there. If they can get into the tunnel, they will walk through that. If not, they will walk, using the streets, to Sedgewick Ave. and 162nd St., where the Sedgewick Ave. station used to be, and go down to platform level. Those platforms (part of them, I should say) still exist, as well as the entrance to the opposite end of the tunnel. If they can get into the tunnel from that end, they will explore there. Finally, they will make their way to 155th St. and 8th Ave. (probably with the Concourse Line) to look at what is left of the 9th Ave. El stairways that are still there. If nothing has changed in 25 years, they will see what I saw. If you want to know what I saw, go to my transit web site NYC TRANSIT Click on "Polo Grounds Shuttle", read the text and look at the pix.
What date is the tour and when does it meet?
See Upcoming Events for this sort of thing.
-Dave
I'll try to make it. Anyone know is the 4 going past Atlantic Ave on Sunday??
I want to try the D to the Shuttle to the 4.
Lou: You must be a young guy and maybe wouldn't understand, but there was a time when the #4 in Brooklyn meant the Sea Beach, not the Jerome Line from the Bronx. That also went the way of 5 cents cup of coffee and now with the Manhattan Bridge route becoming passe, a lot of subway history and my pleasant memories are taking dive. What next, close down Stillwell Avenue.
Next stop on the Sea Beach Line-----Fort Hamilton Parkway.
It's entirely possible that for a brief period of time, both the Sea Beach and Lex./Jerome Ave. routes carried the #4 marking at the same time, what with new R units arriving on the IRT and the Triplexes still in service on the BMT. As one #4 marking was being phased in, the other was being phased out.
The same can be said about the #1 (Broadway-7th Ave. and Brighton) and #3 (7th Ave.-Lenox and West End) markings and, to a lesser extent, 5 (Lex. and Culver) 7 (Flushing and Franklin Ave. shuttle).
Fred Did you read my postings on Saturday about switching the Letters on the B Division to Numbers(IND/BMT and visa versa on the IRT). I have been off line since Saturday night due to computer problems.
When I get off a subway, I like to wait a moment and watch the subway whoosh out of the station. Watching one whoosh into a station is also exciting to me. Just thought I'd let you all know this.
Anyone else do this?
Yep. Unless I got somewhere to go, I will talk to the T/O here in DC (a few know me) and then watch the train go by looking for unusual things.
Another place to stand is a overpass & watch the cars go below you. Provides a hole different prospective.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, Thurston that reminds me -- the 14th Street-Canarsie Line underpass at B'way/ENY was officially permanently closed as of last week. The new overpass has been in operation, although the finishing touches -- windows, lighting wall panels -- have yet to be added. Hopefully, by springtime, this location will give an EXCELLENT birdseye view of the Broadway-Junction structure and yards.
(I'll post here any develops as they happen)
Doug aka BMTman
I used this station today. Do you know why all the Queens bound J trains are using the center track?
Sorry, I can't help out here. I rarely use the J since I come from Canarsie and switch to the 8th Ave. Line there.
Doug aka BMTman
FINALLY! That underpass has been naught but a urinal since I've ever been riding the "L" train. Are they going to remove it or just leave it closed? Next time I'm out that way I'll be sure to check out "The Barn" (from a distance, it sure looks like one, with its red siding).
Wayne
That reminds me, I like that, too.
Yes. Often.
With and without a video camera!
--Mark
i did this last november 1 -5 1999 railfan windwow shots all the way get off then shoot the train as it quickly dissapears!!
what a show !!! SORRY IF YOU DIDNT SEE THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE
R -1 THRU R - 9 WITH THE GRINDING ENGINE SOUNDS doing 50 plus
miles an hour and also the low v irts when they ran
wish i had a vidieo camera back then !!!
but at least i now have 48 hours of redbirds # 2 #5 #7 railfan and
station vidieos etc..... thank you !!
Back in the 60's when i lived around Fresh Pond Rd the standards would head to Metropolitan Ave, as they would leave the Fresh Pond Rd station, there was a loud sound almost like a very large breaker kicking closed,i could never find out caused that sound....though i can still hear it when i think of that,it never bothered the train as it just continued on to Metropolitan Ave....if there are any museum fan trips using the standards it would be interesting to listen for that sound as it was done quite a lot.
I always like to watch the train I just got off of leave the station. In past years, I would count the number of cars or watch the conductor before he stepped down from the step plates. Later, I would note car numbers and try to identify the contract number a particular car was built under. This applied to the IRT, where mixed consists were common.
It's great to see subways do their things, pull in, pull out, pass each other, etc. Especially the fun to ride the Philly M-4's and peer out the "railfan window". The automatic announcements are getting
a little annoying. I pity the people who use the line every day.
(52nd st. station, change for the 31 & the 52), etc., etc.
Chuck Greene
love that RAILFAN WINDOW!!!
Where can I get 1 in DC or NY?
You can go to New York Transit Museum Gift Shop at Grand Central. Not only Y2K NYC Subway calandar, but also LIRR, New Haven, and New York Central.
It opens 8AM-8PM weekdays, and 10AM-4PM Saturdays; closes on Sundays.
Chaohwa
Also Willis Hobbies in Mineola (on Willis Ave) has a wide selection of calendars, incl. NYCentral, LIRR, subway, etc. They have a even bigger selection of books then the Transit Museum.
No auto, the LIRR to Mineola & LI Bus #23 will get you their.
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of Calenders. Pentrex Video s in Calif also sells a NYC Trolley One. I ordered one a couple of weeks ago. Does anyone have one?
12/17/99
WMATAGMOH,
On the N.Y.C. Subway Calendar, if all else fails, E-mail me for mail order instructions.
Bill Newkirk
Reading through some of the old descriptions and looking at photos of some of the IRT stations, I see quite a few mentions and photos of vault lighting. Are there any remaining stations where vault lighting is used? Why and when was it removed from so many stations? I think they should consider bringing it back when remodeling stations. The extra light can't hurt the crime rates. It might show how filthy and how badly in need of repair some of the stations are though.
Brooklyn Bridge / City Hall's fare control area was remodeled to have larget valut lights providing natural light.
--Mark
Ummm, let's try that again (I was a "Hunt & Peck School of Typing" dropout :)
Brooklyn Bridge / City Hall's fare control area was remodeled to have larger vault lights providing natural light.
--Mark
Any idea on when & why the old vault lighting was removed at many stations though?
I recently saw a steel route sign offered for sale at a train show. I recognized it as the size used by the gate cars, which is somewhat smaller than the IRT signs of that time period.
The puzzling thing is that the sign read "Brighton Line". I never knew the gate cars to operate on the Brighton Line, yet this sign did look genuine.
Can anyone out there explain this, or was what I saw a phoney?
They ran gate cars and Qs prior to the AB Standards and Triplex. See Malborn St Crash
They ran gate cars and Qs prior to the AB Standards and Triplex. See Malborn St Crash
There were no Q's back then. The Q's were rebuilt from some of the BU's for the 1939 World's Fair. It was solid BU's (BRT Gate Cars), prior to the A/B's.
I recently saw a steel route sign offered for sale at a train show. I recognized it as the size used by the gate cars, which is somewhat smaller than the IRT signs of that time period.
The puzzling thing is that the sign read "Brighton Line". I never knew the gate cars to operate on the Brighton Line, yet this sign did look genuine.
Can anyone out there explain this, or was what I saw a phoney?
It was probably authentic. Before 1920, the BU's ruled the Brighton Line. The Malbone St. wreck involved BU's on the Brighton Line. Fact is, the BU's ruled Brooklyn period. It wasn't until 1915, when the 4th Ave. Subway opened that the BRT "Steels" (Standards) began replacing the BU's on the Southern Division.
I probably should have said more in my original post. When I saw the Brighton Line sign at the show (I didn't purchase it because of the price), I mentally dated it to around 1950 based on its condition. I based this on the yellowing of the lettering as compared to a sign in my collection which I can specifically date to 1950. The Brighton sign looked better or "newer" than my 111th St sign. I just could not believe that the Brighton sign in a condition like that could be 80 or 90 years old. I could very well be wrong.
Did the "C's" or "Q's" retain the same type signage after rebuilding?
What kind of signage did the SIRT "steels" use when they were in subway service?
[ What kind of signage did the SIRT "steels" use when they were in subway service? ]
The SIRT steels used steel route signs from old El cars. To the best of my knowledge, they were never used on the Brighton line. However, some signs saying "Brighton Line" may have been prepared for them just in case.
-- Ed Sachs
IIRC, the SIRT cars bought by the city to use on the BMT only ran on the Culver line.
The ex-SIRT cars were used mostly on the Culver line, although they did appear on the West End from time to time. In any case, they ran exclusively on Southern Division routes.
After the Culver line was reduced to a shuttle in 1959, the ex-SIRT cars ran on the West End Local for another two years until they were retired in 1961.
-- Ed Sachs
SIRT cars also ran on the Franklin Shuttle c.1959.
I have an L sign "Prospect Park" from that run.
If the SIRT cars ran on the Franklin Shuttle, then they did run on the Brighton Line, if only top deadhead!!!! Another for the Brighton, what did not run on the Brighton. I even remember seeing the Bluebird and green hornet pictures marked brighton and 7000 on the layup track so of Prospect Pk
12/17,99
I have an old black & white slide of the SIRT cars laid up at the Ocean Parkway station looking towards Brighton Beach.
Bill Newkirk
The 36th Street station (IND) has a relatively new sign on its exterior that's completely wrong. It says R, G to Jamaica, but in reality, neither the R nor the G go anywhere near Jamaica, terminating at 71st / Continental in Forest Hills.
Broadly put, you can transfer to an E or F at 74th/Broadway, which will get you to Jamaica.
Further down the route, at 65th Street, you have 'Rowan St" signs; the streets in this area were given numbers decades ago. A sign on the mezzanaine says "To Jamaica and the Rockaways"; this was a dream of IND planners which never came true.
Finally, on the platform, there's a directional sign that points to the back of the platform and says To 63rd Street.
I was taken in by it, using the station for the first time to get to LIC for a freelance job. I don't believe any trace exists of the 63rd Street exit on Broadway!
www.forgotten-ny.com
At one time, both the G (nights) and R (round the clock in 88, reduced to rush hours in 1990) ran to 179th St.
"round the clock in 88, reduced to rush hours in 1990"
I don't think that the R went anywhere but that Brooklyn shuttle round the clock since the switch in Queens. Before the switch, the R went on to Queens, with the N as a shuttle in Brooklyn.
No. The R line ran from Continental to 95th around the clock from May 87 to 12/11/88, when it was extended to 179th St around the clock. The R was reduced to a shuttle in October 1992, when another flurry of service cuts tooke effect, like the elimination of C service east of Euclid Ave. and the termination of rush hour R and express F service on Hillside Ave.
Many of the signs and many stations are outdated, especially the ones in the tiles. Woodhave Blvd, "Slattery Plaza"! Tbat has been gone for decades. Van Wyck Blvd! That has been gone for over 40 years.
Many of the stations have had exits that were sealed off, but the exit marker on the tiles remains!
Actually, "Slattery Plaza" was changed to "Queens Mall" in 1984 or 1985. I'm comparing a fall 1983 subway map to the
fall 1985 "Brighton Line Diversion Information" one.
I liked the sign that was in the Manhattan-bound Queensboro N/7 station, directing riders to the Second (or Third) Avenue Elevated...still there in the early 1990s.
Actually, "Slattery Plaza" was changed to "Queens Mall" in 1984 or 1985. I'm comparing a fall 1983 subway map to the
fall 1985 "Brighton Line Diversion Information" one.
I liked the sign that was in the Manhattan-bound Queensboro N/7 station, directing riders to the Second (or Third) Avenue Elevated...still there in the early 1990s.
I remember seeing a sign in the typical IRT style of white lettering on a dark blue background (enamel) on the outside of the stairway between the mezzanine and the street at the Junction Blvd. station on the 7 that read something like "To Grand Central and Times Square. To Uptown and Downtown Manhattan via Second Avenue Elevated". There was more, but I don't remember all of it. It appeared to be painted over with dark blue paint, but the elements revealed it after 30 years. This was back in the mid-seventies. I assume all the 7 El stations probably had this. If anyone can verify exactly what it says, please write it down and post it on SubTalk.
>>>I liked the sign that was in the Manhattan-bound Queensboro N/7 station, directing riders to the
Second (or Third) Avenue Elevated...still there in the early 1990s. <<<
That, along with the gorgeous "QVEENSBORO PLAZA" signs were gone by the time I started...
www.forgotten-ny.com
That, along with the gorgeous "QVEENSBORO PLAZA" signs were gone by the time I started...
Oh yeah! I had forgotten about that! Well, you know. The TA had to replace all the good old original signs with all that contemporary crap.
Up until a few years ago, one could still find an original "DOWN TOWN EXPRESS TRAINS" sign with an arrow pointing to the express track on the southbound platform at Times Square on the 7th Ave. line. I'm glad I took a picture of it while it was still there. It's sad that a perfectly functional sign like that is gone now.
I guess people could not read English
Did any of you realize that the Queensboro Plaza station is actually underground?!!? It's in one of the Planet of the Apes movies! Guess it's just one more example of the New York subways being written into a screenplay by a guy from the west or midwest!
Bob Sklar
Queensboro Plaza is underground in a Planet of the Apes movie??
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It's underground in "The Cigar Store Indian" episode of Seinfeld.
RIM SHOT!!!
Don't tell me they used Hoyt-Schermerhorn again.....
>>>Did any of you realize that the Queensboro Plaza station is actually underground?!!? It's in one of the
Planet of the Apes movies! Guess it's just one more example of the New York subways being written
into a screenplay by a guy from the west or midwest! <<<
It was in Beneath The Planet of The Apes, which you'll recall is set in the 3900s. A lot can happen in 2000 years.
I hear that by the year 3900 the Times Sq. complex will be elevated and the entire Lexington Ave. line will be open cut.
And of course, costruction on the 2nd Ave. subway will still be continuing, as well as the Manhattan Bridge project.
It was in Beneath The Planet of The Apes, which you'll recall is set in the 3900s. A lot can happen in 2000 years.
... but not to this station. The tile work was so good that the United Federation of Planets Transportation Administration - New York City Division never had this station go through a rehab. It was original tile from the 1970s!!
--Mark
Yeah the movie took place in the 3900's but the nuclear war that caused all the devistation took place either late in the 20th century or early in the 21st. They clearly got it wrong with a two track underground station called Queensboro Plaza. I would say it was in suprizingly good shape for a 2000 year old station. It was in better shape than many of today's stations.
And as for the “Jamaica and the Rockaways” reference – once upon a time, until 1976, the E train did go as far as Rockaway Park, albeit during rush hours. (At the time the Chrystie Street connection opened in 1967, the E also went to Lefferts Boulevard, and also terminated at Far Rockaway until 1973.)
And as for outdated signs and exits that are no longer, I have a few other examples:
– Spring Street (IND) station: Prince Street on NB platform, Charlton Street on SB platform (both now covered up)
– Delancey Street station: Rivington Street exit (86’d)
– Franklin Avenue (IND) station: Classon Avenue exit no more
If any of you out there know of other such examples, please chip in.
There is still tile markings pointing to a Broome St. exit at Delancy St, which was removed years ago.
Ralph Ave IND Brooklyn-- Howard Ave exit gone!
Eastern Parkway Brooklyn IRT-- exit nearest Uptown side on both plats gone(covered over-the only cluer in a slight indentation in tile.)
167th and the Concourse has signs to a non-existent McClellan Street exit
Both the Elderts Lane and Forest Parkway stations on the J line no longer have exits to the streets in their respective stations' name.
And all the Liberty Ave A stations still retain their old street names as well as the numbers, even though those street names were officially dropped from usage only a few years after that line opened. (That's why the A train used the street names, yet the J train never did).
There is no more Ely Avenue, Rawson Street, Bliss or Lowery either.
Isn t 125th St Manhatten now Martin Luther King Blvd???
I think you mean that Lennox Ave. is now Malcolm X Boulevard, right?
Alas, you’re both right.
But in the case of ML King Boulevard, it isn't East/West divided and can't actually be used for addressing purposes. I believe Malcolm X Blvd can be addressed to.
On both these streets (and many more) there are two street signs at the corners. Some streets even have three (official and semi-official) names. It's sort of like Avenue of the Americas, Sixth Ave. and Cousin Brucie Way, all of which are on the light posts at the corner of 6th Ave. and 52nd St. I think only two of them are official, ditto with 125th St. Lenox Ave. (and 8th Ave., etc.).
FULTON IND:
Nostrand Avenue - Arlington Place exit is gone.
Franklin Avenue - Classon Avenue exit is gone.
Ralph Avenue (subway-buff already mentioned this) - Howard Avenue exit is gone.
You can always tell where there once was an exit in the IND. Just look up at the ceiling and you'll see where five lights USED to be. Plates will cover up these unused sockets.
Wayne
>>>If any of you out there know of other such examples, please chip in. <<<
There's a couple of good ones on the mezzanine of the 149th-Grand Concourse complex. The signs say "To NY Central". There's no station there...must have been a dream of NY Central to put a station there back in the 30s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"And as for the “Jamaica and the Rockaways” reference – once upon a time, until 1976, the E train did go as far as Rockaway Park, albeit during rush hours. (At the time the Chrystie Street connection opened in 1967, the E also went to Lefferts Boulevard, and also terminated at Far Rockaway until 1973."
What you say is very true, but the stairway at 65th Street where these signs are embedded in the tiles is on the Jamaica bound side, and as they say in Vermont, you can't (or couldn't) get there from here...your routing would have been true on the other (Brooklyn-bound)platform, if you changed to the E at Queens Plaza
As was previously mentioned, they were planning way ahead when the IND lines were built. There was every intention of building the Winfield Spur until fate stepped in.
103rd Street IND: Closed 102nd Street exit.
28 Street/Broadway (N & R lines) - 29th Street exit closed (sealed up)
8th Avenue (Sea Beach line) - 7th Avenue exit closed
45th Street/4th Avenue (R line) - 46th Street exit closed
If I think of any others I will post them.
As someone who loved the pre war stuff, especially the R1-9's and the Standards (the only low-V trains I remember riding were the Worlds Fair cars on the #8 on 3rd Av) I know there are a number of R1-9's left in the world including a number of trolley museums, restaurants in Staten Is. and England, the State Museum in Albany, and the transit museum the only Standards that I know of is the one in the Transit Museum and the one outside at Branford next to the SIRT car. Does anyone know of any others??
I am happy to report that aside from 2775 (Branford) & 2204 (Transit Museum) There is a three car train of them preserved. Cars 2390, 2391 & 2392 are resting in the overhaul shop of the great Coney Island Yard. The three were used on many nostalgia specials during the 70's up to 1980 when they were retired "Again". Quick efforts led by the great Don Harold & Mike Hanna led to the purchase of these cars and other "Threatened" cars by Railway Preservation Corporation. RPC also owns the restored four car "Lo-v" train (5483, 5443, 5290 & 5292). The three "Standards" are in a state of restoration. 2390 & 2391 are the focus now. 2392 is next in line for major work. A group of about 10 dedicated volunteers (Including me) are lovingly restoring these cars. So....Out of a fleet that once numbered 950 cars only 5 now survive. (2204,2390,2391,2392 & 2775)
RPC also owns the restored four car "Lo-v" train (5483, 5443, 5290 & 5292).
I know that Branford has 5466, another museum car, but what happened to 4902? That too was a museum Lo-V.
4902 is a Lo-V trailer located at the Transit Museum. It's been many years since this car has been on the road for an excursion.
-Stef
Ahy Hi Volts Still around?
Check the Museum Roster. There's no Hi-V's on MTA property any longer. But there are still some out there.
This sounds like a good opportunity to remind everyone that www.nycsubway.org is more than just SubTalk. Now that the server has been upgraded it is much faster to browse the whole site. So please, check it out: www.nycsubway.org.
-Dave
Only Two Remain, Bob. One remains up with us at Branford, while Todd and his colleagues have the other at Seashore. Unfortuanetely, none were prserved at the Transit Museum. I always wondered why there was no interest.
-Stef
Only Two Remain, Bob. One remains up with us at Branford, while Todd and his colleagues have the other at Seashore. Unfortuanetely, none were prserved at the Transit Museum. I always wondered why there was no interest.
-Stef
Because the Hi-V's were retired (1950's) before the TA thought about preserving museum cars. That's why the multi's, the Bluebirds and Zephyr weren't saved either. The TA first grasped the concept of the museum train in 1964. It was a World's Fair thing. Q-Type 1622, the Lo-V train and the brand-new R-36's were displayed in Corona Yard. Then came the A/B 2390, 2391 and 2392. Then came the D-Type 6019, 6095 and 6112. The R-1/9 (10 cars originally) was the last of the museum trains to be designated prior to the opening of the Transit Museum in 1976. Its too bad none of the trolley museums thought about grabbing a Multi-section unit, a Bluebird unit or the Zephyr, before their date with the welder's torch. I guess multiple unit cars were out of the question at the museums. If the World's Fair would have occurred in 1960-1961 instead of 1964-1965, who knows, maybe a Multi, Bluebird and the Zephyr would have been saved as museum equipment.
Anything's possible. Oh well!!! So much for preservation.
-Stef
why not make a subway model
from the subway cars that have not been preserved in museums
like the IRT 21-22 not in any museum right but is operational as
WORK TRAINS right??
why not make a subway model
from the subway cars that have not been preserved in museums
like the IRT 21-22 not in any museum right but is operational as
WORK TRAINS right??
The only difference between an R-17 and an R-21/22 is that the R-17 has a circular window in the storm door, whereas the R-21/22 has a rectangular window that opens in the storm door. Otherwise they're identical, even the interiors. There is an R-17 in the Transit Museum and another one at Shore Line (Branford) Trolley Museum.
12/17/99
One difference between the R-21 and R-22 is that the cab door on the R-21 opens opposite compared to other R types.
On the whereabouts of remaining BMT Standards, I was told of a rumor that B-Type #2321 was not cut up and shipped out whole. Perhaps a chicken coop on a Jersey farm ??
Bill Newkirk
Or could this be the unit we've heard rumoured to exist somewhere north of Kingston? (Sorry, can't remember the thread title where it was discussed a month or two ago.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think that was a section from a Triplex unit.
Oh and there was one other difference between an R-17 and an R-21/22: the R-17s had those small knockout glass panels at the rooflines, two per car side between each set of doors. The R-16s had them, too, except there was only one per side, right in the middle of the car.
Also, I believe that the R-21/22s had a different style of standee handle ("strap" for straphangers to grab on to, above the seats) than was used on the R-10, R-16 and R-17. The R-12, R-14 and R-15 cars had grab bars rather than individual "straps". A new style "strap" was introduced in (I believe) the R-26 series which was used through the R-40s.
-- Ed Sachs
I remember seeing grab bars on the R-12s and R-14s with small individual straps fastened to the bars.
This is similiar to those on the R110B, which has 2 straps fastened to the bar.
"This is similiar to those on the R110B, which has 2 straps fastened to the bar."
Straphangers on the R-110B? I hope that if the car is to survive, these things would be removed and all future cars would not have these pieces of crap. Hopefully, if this is done, the subway will one day be STRAP FREE!
12/18/99
Eugenius,
You keep changing your "handles" as often as Hillary Clinton changes her mind!
Bill Newkirk
My constant name flux is Beyond Reason®
The thing I love about the straps is watching how everyone moves the exact same way at exactly the same time, as if it was choreographed!!
how about a november 1999 REDBIRD on the 2-5 line and # 7 !!
with a R 21-22 railfan window?? the kind that you can open and
close from the inside ???look at the illustrated car roster!
check out how the R 21- 22 railfan windows open and close from the
inside !! WELL WHILE RIDING ON THE FLUSHING # 7 shooting a rail
fan window on the express tracks there was this RED BIRD WITH WHAT
LOOKED LIKE A R-21-22 WINDOW ( type ) i wondered was this a
LEFTOVER R 21-22 painted red hiding its true identy??
allk of a sudden this split window with hinges that allow the
window to slide up and down halfway not a closed one peice railfan window !!! right ???
Yes, R12 and R14 AND R15 all had those little handholds, the kind you could just about fit your fist into.
I noticed a difference in the straps on the R21s and R22s.
The R21s had the same kind as the R10/R16/R17, the R22 had a straight arm with a triangular head. Aside from the unit numbers, that's how I told the two apart.
Wayne
My favorite ones were on the R1-9's. They were porcelin like and were white. I also remember the straps on the Myrtle "Q" cars were real straps, a canvass-like material.
12/18/99
Wayne,
Those "add-on" handholds on the R-12-15's were nicknamed the "KNUCKLEBUSTERS". Guess why?
Bill Newkirk
12/18/99
Steve B-8th Ave Exp,
I was the one that did that detective work on the that center (B) unit that originally in Kingston and was moved up north, south of Albany.
On those red "knock out" emergency glasses on the R-16 & 17's, I remember about 10 years ago they were waiting for shipment for scrapping on 1st Ave in Brooklyn, when I removed one of those glasses and tried to pull the lever. As designed, the whole window frame would drop into a pocket to allow passengers to escape in the event of an emergency. However this and other levers I tested in other R-16's didn't work. I guess the levers and window tracks must be lubed to insure that they work. This was not the case and good thing nothing happened in service when passengers tried to make an emergency escape through this window.
Bill Newkirk
Didn t the R 17 have circle windows on the exit door also, I think I remember some of the old flushing cars having them.
The R-11,15,16 and 17 had circular windows on the storm doors. The R-11 and R-15 only had four small round "portholes" on each set of side doors.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-17 at Shoreline/Branford has round windows in the storm door that open, i.e. half & half. Seats are grey bench. Side destination signs are roll type with neon bulbs inside, two signs one over the other. She's a single, so full controlls at each end & this model has a trolley pole
Mr t__:^)
The trolley museums that existed in the 1950s when a lot of
this good stuff was going away were struggling to exist.
Acquiring big stuff was just out of the question economically.
Also, from a program standpoint, the reasoning back then was
to collect every trolley car that you could, because it appeared
that the entire genre of street railway transportation was going
to vanish forever. With the rapid transit systems, it was
an equipment generation thing.
By the late 1950s, Branford was thinking beyond trolley and on
to rapid transit and interurban...not without considerable internal
discord I might add. We were lucky to acquire a strong collection
of elevated equipment (although I regret that we did not get a
MUDC or other Manhattan passenger car), and 3662 came up at that
time as well. Some of the names that were instrumental in these
acquisitions are still familiar to day: Hanah, Ruschmeyer, Harold.
In terms of telling the NYCTS story, probably the worst loss is
that none of the BMT lightweights/experimentals were saved.
12/17/99
Jeff H,
But the BMT "Green Hornet" could never have been saved since the US Government looked at it as prime scrap for World War II.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks!!!
By the way, are there any R1-9's there at Coney Island?
I've seen an R4 in the old car "graveyard" (near the ramp up to the F line at Ave X) at Coney Island. It's painted in an unusual manner, with a white body and navy blue doors. There is also a redbird R16 there. I've never seen an R16 redbird in passenger service in the R16's last days, so this paint job must've been post-retirement. Perhaps it was one of those used as "trash trains".
That must have been 6339. There were some R16s that were painted fire engine red back in the 60s. A true R16 Redbird (6452) sits at PS 248 on the side of the West End line. This car never saw servuce int the modern paint scheme.
-Stef
The R-4 painted in an unusual manner, with a white body and navy blue doors.
One of many R1/9s to receive the standard MTA white body / blue stripe paint scheme in the early and mid 1970s. Never looked good on that model car, if you ask me.
There is at least one additional R1/9 at Coney Island painted "properly" though I do not know the car number or its condition. I can tell you it LOOKS good.
--Mark
1802 is supposed to be the better of all the R1/9s stored there.
-Stef
When I did the Coney Island Yard tour back in the spring I recall seeing the R-4 up on horses in the maintenance shop. I believe the color scheme was actually silver with blue doors. Looked like a variation on the 70's TA colors.
Doug aka BMTman
Chris: It this was you talking about? This R16 #6452 is the only subway car that never went on service with red scheme.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
There was supposed to be one car (2321) that became a restaurant
somewhere in Florida. (Circa mid-1960's)
Anyone have info about this ?
Check our Museum Roster.
-Dave
I apologize to the regulars of this message board, but certain individual(s) seem to enjoy antagonizing the employees of the NYCTA by posting inflamartory remarks without knowing all the facts or just to rile us up. I have read these posts for about a month now and refuse to be insulted and degraded any farther. I have to deal with this abuse on a daily basis from the riding public who complain at the drop of a hat when something goes wrong but can't say one nice thing the 9 times out of 10 when the system runs perfectly and my partner and I get them from point A to point B SAFELY and on time. In closing if you haven't walked in my (our) shoes please refrain from commenting any farther on "in house" subjects.
If you have any questions and/or general comments I am sure my fellow employees and I will be more then happy to offer our insight.
Sincerely Yours;
BEAST RIDER
Let's get something straight: As a knowledgeable straphanger, I will continue to voice my opinions on whatever subject I feel like, including "in-house" subjects. If you don't like what some of us say or think, then engage us in rational debate. Don't try to diminish our opinions just because we aren't transit employees. This place needs some outside opinions. Some of my transit-worker friends seem to need to hear from "outsiders".
[Don't try to diminish our opinions just because we aren't transit employees. This place needs some outside opinions. Some of my transit-worker friends seem to need to hear from "outsiders".]
Come on guys ... can we PLEASE turn the FLAME down ?
I like a good debate as well as the next person, but the way you express your opinion has much to do with how seriously others will consider it. This is a learning place for A-L-L. Stop helling and the rest of us will listen !
Chris, if you want to get mad at someone come to a TA open meeting (Larry & others will tell you when). Bring some thoughtful criticisms of the system & keep comming back to press your point. Join the Straphangers group .... things can change for the better if you're willing to help make it happen, but don't just sound off here, please ?
Mr t__:^)
Thanks, Thurston. A much needed voice of reason.
Unfortunatly, when I'm convinced I'm right, I'm very hard to shut up. But now that a contract has been signed, I'll lay off a bit :-)
Both on the SubTalk & BusTalk side this site can be a perfect place for customers & employees to talk & learn for each other.
It is my hope that there are a few "suits" out there that are reading some of these posts.
- Would be too much to hope that someone does something about the Jamaica Rest Area without the need for a union greviance about it ?
- Isn't it nice to know that many employees still like what they do ?
- Isn't it just a nice to know that some customers think, in general, we provide good service ... or at least try to every day.
Chris, I look forward to meeting you at a future "Field Trip" and join the more then two dozen others that I've been able to put a face to. with.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks you for the kind words.
I think you should get a job with the Daily News since you like to make judgements without knowing all the facts. Case in point judging the union and it's members and then asking what givebacks. If you want to voice your opinion fine, but get the facts straight first. The way you have been going about things is like a judge listening to the prosecution, killing a man and then hearing the defense.
grow up little children !!! act you age PLEASE STAY ON TOPI
yes!! like RAILFAN WINDOWS!!! nad questions about RAIL TRANSIT
WORLDWIDE ETC,,, .... your racisms in and out of house etc..
AND YOUR IRRELEVANT ATTACKS ETC...... 100% unecessary!!
let us respect DAVID PIRMMAN and the others who took all of those old photographs and new and those who volunteer and
add to the GOOD OF THIS SITE LET US ALL USE THIS WISELY AND
NOT TRASH AND ABUSE IT !! thank you !!!
grow up little children !!! act you age PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC
yes!! like RAILFAN WINDOWS!!! nad questions about RAIL TRANSIT
WORLDWIDE ETC,,, .... your racisms in and out of house etc..
AND YOUR IRRELEVANT ATTACKS ETC...... 100% unecessary!!
let us respect DAVID PIRMMAN and the others who took all of those old photographs and new and those who volunteer and
add to the GOOD OF THIS SITE LET US ALL USE THIS WISELY AND
NOT TRASH AND ABUSE IT !! thank you !!!
".... your racisms in and out of house"
Slow down, Flintstone! I have not read every post in this thread but I don't recall any that were remotely racist. Can you cut & paste the comment you are referring to?
all i care about is on topic rail worldwide transit talk that is all!!!
thank you !!!
Beast Rider: Apologies accepted but certainly not needed. From what I saw this summer, the motormen I dealt with were great, and I know that you guys do one hell of a job. Without the subway NYC would come to a grinding halt, and we would having nothing to do on this website but complain about a strike. I don't know if you're aware of this from my previous blurbs, but I can swear that if my family had not moved out of New York in 1954, I would have eventually become a motorman on your subway, college degree (or not) be damned. Hang in there, you have more support on from your fellow railfans that you imagine.
Unfortunately, that's what this site is about, "in-house subjects". If we don't talk about those things what will be left. This venue will take on all the trappings of a sports-talk radio. "I'll trade you 40 R-46s for 50 R-32s and 10 cars to be named later."
I sometimes get frustrated by some of the inane babble from some but have also gotten some interesting ideas & perspectives from others. Some people here have lots of knowledge and those that don't, mostly want to learn. Their approach may be abrassive but that's how some try to get attention.
I never meant to be so abrasive. But weeks of hearing how 3% raises were "unfair" and "exploitive" kinda drove me over the edge. I promise to be a "kinder, gentler" Subtalker (I think I owe George Bush some royalties for using that phrase, right?)
Chris - I was not referring to you. Believe me before you and Mr. Beastrider got here we had some really abrassive people here. (one was almost arrested), Dave has done an excellent job of moderating this site and things have been very civil. One thing, though. I agree with those who say you should print your current comments and if you ever do go to work for the TA and you are a very loyal TWU member, you can look back on them and remember how young and inexperienced you sounded.
Not likely. My mother, and 2 brothers in law work for the city and both belong to municipal unions. If you think I'm strong-minded in here with the TWU, you should here some of the heated arguments my mother and I get into (she's a member of the UFT).
As a former teacher, don't get me started.
LOL. I don't think Subtalk can handle yet another union debate.
This previous weekend i was on a very odd C3 bilevel which had a bar at one end and on the l,ower level a luggage rack. Is that what the lirr calls a parlor car because if it is it is a very cheap excuse for a parlor car
Does anybody have a clue when the Oyster Bay line will get the DM30s
They run there now, it is not 100% C3's but most trains are.
Those are the DE-30s. AFIK, there are no dual modes on the OB line. I think the LIRR's waiting for hell to freeze over before bringing DM service the the Oyster Bay line.
Or maybe those silly people in Oyster Bay are opposing it like they oppsed electrification?
I dont hink it isi that because everybody on the line wants a thru train to ny
Well obviously not everyone. While I'm sure most people want direct service and electrfication, you have the vocal minority of the rich obstructionist NIMBYs that ruin it for everyone else.
I am looking for the latest of information that may lead to my company's involvement is a pre-tax commuting cost program. Does one exist? I know that some NYC companies offer pre-tax Metrocards to their employees -- How do I get the necessary information to start a similar program at my company. Any help would be much appreciated.
Tom, You're talking about the MTA's "TransitChek" program. It comes in two flavors: A physical check that you can use to buy rapid transit rides (you could send my compay the check & we'll send you MetroCards - plug plug), or you can buy a TransitChek version of a MetroCard (I believe you can buy both value & time/unlimited versions).
Phone: 212-638-7622 or 800-METROCARD
Web: www.transitcenter.com
P.S. To MC collectors, I've seen three verions of TransitChek MCs, are there more ?
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have or can post the rosters for rolling stock used by a specific line?
For that matter the cars assigned to the different yards??
Personally, I prefer the period of the 1960s.
Thanks
As we all know millions of people will flock to Times Square to watch the ball drop on Dec. 31th. However how many people will be in the subway stations under Times Square? Is that "the place to be" for your average subfan? Will there be a "subfan" version of the ball drop. How many of you would rather be in a subway concourse rather in the square and how many of you will be in the Times Square subway station.
Even as an avid subway fan, I am still looking foward to being in Times Square this New Year's Eve. Unless I get tickets to Billy Joel's concert at MSG, I'll be there. But I am looking foward to my last ride in '99 and first ride in 2000....hopefully they will be memorable moments!! -Nick
All the low end tickets to Bill Joel are sold out. There are many $500 ones left. Even floor seats and a party afterwards that Billy isn't attending (turned them down).
I'd rather be on the first train out of a terminal at midnight. I would for instance go out on the 4 train to Woodlawn and take the first southbound 4 of the new year or any other line.
Question is, will the TA actually close Times Sq. and direct the throng to 6 and 8 ave, or to 1-2-3/N-R stations north and south of the area? I wouldn't want to be down there that night. (Actually, I'll be in Philly for part of that city's Millennium bash.)
I was in NYC on July 4, 1986, when they rededicated the Statue of Liberty. The Lex and 7 Ave. lines in lower Manhattan were utter hell all day...even worse than rush hours. It'll be FAR worse than that in the Square, with construction adding to woes...
Frankly, I'd love to be at Coney Island when the New Year rings in, and if I were sure some dozen or so of my subfan colleagues would join me, I really think I'd hop a plane and head there. Tell me what you think of that idea.
I'm going to be home New Year's Eve.
I'm not Y2K compliant.
I'm not Y2K compliant either. At the stroke of midnight, I'm going back to 1900 to ride a BU from Park Row to Coney Island along Andrew Culver's ROW.
BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT COMPANY
Be sure to tell that dumb BRT supervisor to not put himself in a position to be run over by future Mayor Hylan, thus avoiding his vendetta against the private transit companies and averting many other problems when the IND finally gets built.
Time travel would be soooo cool.
Big Deal the 21st Century does not really start for another year anyway, and it is only 2000 on the Christian Calander which is celebrated by 1/3 of Mankind anyway.
Big Deal the 21st Century does not really start for another year anyway.
Yes, technically this is true....both the new millenium and century begin in 2001. However, I think this year will be the bigger party. Also, 2000 does mean a new decade, a census, summer olympic games, and the R142! It will also bring an end to the 1990s, 1900s, and 1000s.
it is only 2000 on the Christian Calander which is celebrated by 1/3 of Mankind anyway.
Celebrated, yes, by only 1/3.....but used by just about everyone. Even our fellow Jewish people follow this calendar. -Nick
Celebrated, yes, by only 1/3.....but used by just about everyone. Even our fellow Jewish people follow this calendar
The Muslims, Hindu's and Buddhists use it also. It is the calendar that is officially recognized world-wide. Even though Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists have their own calendars for religious purposes, it is the Gregorian calendar that is world-wide.
If Gregory got royalties he'd be richer than Bill Gates by now.
The main reason we use the Christian Calender is because the Western Europeans were the dominant Colonial Fourses from the 15-20th Century, and not one part of the world was NOT under some sort of rule from a European Power. It is used only as a convience, China, India, etc still have their New Years Celebration. Even in the Christian World, the Eastern Orthdox still use a different calender then the Roman and Western European Countries.
Incidentally, I remember a TV movie they made way back in 1984 predicting what kind of celebrations and problems there would be when 2000 comes. Some cable station ought to fish it out of the archives and play it.
Yeah but in that year none of George Orwell's predictions came true!!!
We have some sort of Big Brother, that is why there are so many privacy suits goping on in courts
Even our fellow Jewish people follow this calendar.
But only in our dealings with the secular world:-)
As for my whereabouts that night, even though it's the Sabbath I'll be at work, as the management rep, with a bunch of my staff in the unlikely event of a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i will not participate or cooperate with the CENCUS 2000
Boy you have a problem with everything, don't you.
The 2000/2001 debate aside, the real mellinneum occurs at 00:00 Greenwitch Mean Time which is about 7:00 PM EST. Now 7:00 PM is almost completely unfit for party purposes (its not even in prime time) so there are 2 possible options to remedy this. First you can assume that Greenwitch Mean Time is refering to Greenwitch, Connectucit. However, I prefer the second option, which is to have 2 shows at Times Square, an early showing on the mellennium and the late showing of the mellennium. If you think its going to be too crowded at midnight, come for the 7:00 PM showing. They drop the ball, Dick Clark says a few things. At 8:00 PM they clear everyone out, crank the ball back up and get ready to do it again. This way people can celebrate the Mellennium both at times square and then with friends and familt at home. Plus twice as many people would be able to ring in the new Year in NYC and this would gerenate extra revenue in the Midtown area through increased food and alcohol sales.
I don't mean to nitpick, but its "Greenwich", not "Greenwitch".
I know, I was just making fun of one of those wacky Egnlish names. I like to call it "Green-Witch". I do the same with "Glou-Chester", "War-Chester" and "Connect-i-Cut"
Sorry, but Connecticut is a Native American name.
Only the following states have English names:
Maine
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
New York
New Jersey
Maryland
Virginia
West Virginia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Georgia
Indiana
Montana
Washington
And there are those that are neither English or Native American:
Pennsylvania (Latin)
Delaware (European, I don't know what)
Nevada (Spanish)
California (Spanish)
Florida (Spanish)
Louisiana (French)
Alaska (Inuit)
Hawaii (Polynesian)
English or not I still enjoy mocking it. I'm trying to start the pronounce like you spell it movement along with the restore dropped letters movement.
Oh, like Esperanto. There, each letter has only one sound associated with it and each sound has one letter. Every word's spelling is obvious, and pronouncing is not a problem (no need for those phonetics in the dictionary!).
Esperanto estas bona lingvo.
That's exactly what's going to happen here in Boston. Mayor Menino will have a party at City Hall Plaza at 7:00pm (00Z, or 00:00 UTC = Midnight GMT); this is aimed at families with children who shouldn't/couldn't stay up until Midnight local time. He says it will also take stress off the subways and buses (hey! on topic!).
Actually, we discussed this before. The new day begins at 00:01. So we've been celebrating the new year too early. At this point, we've been doing this enough that IT SHOULD be officially switched to 00:00.
The day begins at 00:00 and goes to 23:59. Thats's why there is no 24:00 with a 24 hour clock and that's why 12:00 is considered AM.
"....and that's why 12:00 is considered AM."
It's not considered AM or PM, it's equidistant to noon going both ways and therefore cannot be AM or PM. It's only commonly known as AM because all of the other minutes in that hour are antemeridian (before noon).
If you think about it the actual meridian is is only one time frame (which they are guessing is about 1E-22 seconds) long, so for all intents and purposes 12:00 is AM and is in a new day.
What's so special about Greenwich time other than it being made 0º longitude? Time really begins clear around the world at the International Date Line (180º) That's where the new Millenium will first ring in, and the old one last ring out.
The first place to get the Millenium will be the Kingdom of Tonga and the last will be Hawaii, except for some small islands near Midway. I live in Hawaii and will know for 23 hours if something screws up in a Major country like Australia, and have 5 hours from New York. Ask the Brits about GMT or Zulu time they started it all
Greenwich time is important because our Global culture can't be working with 25 eperate times. Greenwich mean time has beendeclared Universal Coordinated Time and is the official time of the Planet Earth. Most people use localtime for convienance,but the military and astronomiersuse use UCT for much of their work.
I don't follow the calendar
I'll be at home on the 11th of Nivôse, with the TV playing in the background because the coming year of those funky Gregorians is much cooler than my year 208.
I'd sure like to be one of the gatemen on that train!
I assume that after that you would change your handle to BRT LINES?
I assume that after that you would change your handle to BRT LINES?
No, as I indicated in the post that you replied to "BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT COMPANY"
Speaking of which I'm working all weekend. Y2k Compliant testing on the main frame bright and early Saturday Morning though sunday.
23rd Normal Day Last Night for normal Batch Operations
24th No Operations (Holiday)
25th No Operations (Holiday)
26th No Operations, Regular and Operational Backups
27th Normal Operations, Limited Batch at night (Payroll)
28th Early System Shut Down No Batch Operations (Basicly up for Payroll)
29th No Operations Backup Day One
30th No Operations Backup Day Two
31th No Operations (Holiday)
1st System IPL 8am, Sys Check out 8-10, 10-1 App Checkout 1pm Online brought up, 1-5 App Batch Checkout App Testing Start
2nd 8am Sys Check Out 830-Noon App check out, Noon-4 Batch Testing
3rd Back to Buisness as usual (we hope).
I can tell you that this "subfan" won't be in Times Square on Jan. 1!
subfan
I'm going to make a point of sawing wood in my bed when Y2K hits as a reaction to all the hype. This thing is hyped beyond belief. It's just another year.
BTW, I'm not a party pooper or misanthrope. I have been and will be at my share of Christmas gatherings.
www.forgotten-ny.com
While it would be nice to be in the Times Square vicinity when the bal drops, I will be either in Central City playing in a benefit concert or, if that falls through, at my lady friend's ringing in the New Year with her.
Want to bet the shuttle will be up and running all night on New Year's Eve?
There's a service suspension on the F right now between Kings Hwy and Stillwell Av due to a gas leak at Ave Z and Shell Rd. Anyone know if Coney Island Yard's been affected in any way?
-Stef
At 16:09 a ruptured Brooklyn Union Gas Main was discovered in the vicinity of Avenue X. Power was removed at 16:30 and was restored at 16:58. No TA equipment was involved..
Anyone know why the Manhattan bound F trains were routed up the G line, around 10:15 AM? There were also extensive delays on Queens bound-A train. Another "suspicious package" at Jay St.?
Service out/in CI was not effected except for the F train. I walked back to West 8th from Neptune to get a D without problem.
No Block Ticket issued at the time the crew and station agent didn't know what was going on and I had to get to where I was going. Thank goodness for an unlimited Metro Card.
On the 11:00 news (NBC-Channel 4) last night, guess who turned up. Our good friend Eric - Mr. Transit Professional. I was very impressed to say the least. He was articulate, moderate and made 'New Directions' seem almost credible in their dissatisfaction. What was even more amazing was that he used his whole name while every other New Directions member who was quoted on TV or in the Newspaper, spoke under the promise of anonymity.
"GOOD JOB, ERIC"
I saw that. My hat's off to him. He's fighting for what he believes in.
-Stef
There is a quote from a well-known civil rights lawyer from when he was defending a white supremacist that seems to apply here -
"I will fight to the death against what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"
Eric, I disagree with you strongly with regards to union-management relations in general and MTA/TWU issues in particular; however, I find it refreshing to find someone on the "other side" able to present there view civilly and articulately; someone with whom I can discuss issues without descending into demagoguery and name-calling. Good luck and please - keep on posting!
subfan
I respect the transit professional because he gives reasons -- the definition of being reasonable. Most people do not.
The SOB made it to all channels except five. I didn't even get the autograph.
Actually we'd like him to come up the the Concourse and autograph an R-68.
I thought that might be "our" Eric ... my hats off to you !
Mr t__:^)
Sorry I missed you on TV, ERIK!
To my fellow SubTalkers, I have met Erik three times. Twice "on the line" (I rode with him while he was a conductor on the E, plus another time I was on his train when he didn't know it). In both cases, his announcements and passenger information were among the best I have ever heard on the system. The other time was when he and Harry came up to Seashore last summer; they enjoyed a great day of exploring the Museum, and even running the A Train.
As a transit "semi-professional," I have learned a tremenous amount from him... and though I may not agree with everything, I appreciate the way he articulates his thoughts and makes strong arguments to support them. Hey Erik -- have you thought about a second career in radio :-)
The same goes for our other NYCT friends... Steve, Subway-Buff, Bill from Maspeth, Alex, etc. They bring a great perspective to SubTalk, enabling the rest of us to learn "...the rest of the story." So thanks to them, and of course to our host Dave, who makes this all possible.
I guess this has turned into my Holiday Greeting to you all!
Let me begin by stating I was NOT in jail these last few
days!lol!
Well, now most of you know what I look like. I attended
all of the meetings and marches, rain and cold. And what
did I accomplish? Nothing.
This contract provides a very generous wage increase. I am
happy with that. The rest sucks. In RTO there were no
changes from the current sections 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3 of the
old contract. Discipline as our "illustrious leader"
claims is NOT better. AWOL is now considered a major
violation, whereas it used to be a minor one. How is that
a defensible position? you say.
Because as any transit worker can tell you, with widely
varying shifts and days off, occasionally mistakes happen.
Yes we realize that the people of this city depend on us.
But we are human, and mistakes happen. Should we be
suspended for 20 or 30 days for it? I don't believe so.
There are also other provisions of the contract that
greatly disturb me. The so called "regional bus company"
is one. Most of all section 13. This I believe gives our
own corrupt union the chance to agree to further
concessionary deals with out our approval.
If anyone asks I will E-mail them a copy of the Memorandum
of Undestanding, and the Taylor law as well if they like.
And thank you all for the kind comments.
Erik
Welcome Back !
Drat! My first chance to finally see who you are, and I missed it. I was working midnights this week, and hardly had the TV on.
Many news stations archie their broadcasts onthe net. try looking around.
Erik, I didn't see you on the tube, but it's good to have you back where you belong -- giving us the low-down on TA worker info.
Doug aka BMTman
Why are people still fighting for a miserable 15% increase? That is stupid... period! Even though I feel that the city forced them to the agreement 12% is still great. Increases will happen again. Now look what is going to happen: A fare increase! Do you think the people like paying more for a trip that use to be around 10 cents? Come on. I maybe get off the subject. But this strike has been nothing but a huge shame to the system. Maybe it should be the way it used to be when it was two separate unions. The transit system is way for people to get around, not a way to get chaos and what you want when money is the question at hand!
Stef: I could not find the date that Gibbs Hi-VM 3352 left New York for Maine but I can tell you that he was withdrawn from service on August 10,1956.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can verify that 3352 was acquired by Seashore in 1956, althought I don't know the exact date. Perhaps if Gerry is lurking out there he knows it???
Todd: Does Seashore have many pieces of NYC Rapid Transit cars and do they ever run them on special weekends like Branford does?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
The entire Seashore roster is available on the Seashore Web site for your viewing pleasure.
But to answer your specific question, the only NYC rapid transit cars which can and do operate on a limited basis are IND R4/R7A 800/1440. We don't have a specific weekend on which they run, but a number of us are qualified to run them, and they do make occasional trips down the main line. We keep these to a minimum, as they are hard on the tracks and use a lot of power.
Gibbs car 3352 hasn't been out of the barn in a few years; it has a bad air leak in one brake stand plus a number of other ailments. It needs a sponsor, a lot of $$, and TLC!
We also have SIRT 366 and a number of other cars in storage, but they are not operable.
Streetcar representatives from NYC include TARS 631 (operates frequently in passenger service; sister car to Branford's TARS 629) and Brooklyn semi-convertable 4547 (on public display; rarely comes out for a spin though).
Please come visit next season! Hopefully we can arrange a SubTalk Field Trip, where people carpool or rent vans and visit for a weekend next summer.
[Please come visit next season! Hopefully we can arrange a SubTalk Field Trip, where people carpool or rent vans and visit for a weekend next summer.]
Sounds like a offer too good to turn down. I'll first try to get the wife interested, but when she says no, a weekend with the boys sounds like lots of fun. I had in mind adding some riding of the "T" while we're in the neighborhood.
I'm willing to coordinate a small group, so e-mail me off-line.
Mr t__:^)
Todd: Thanks very much for the info. A trip to Seashore is high on my agenda for the coming year. I'll probably combine it with a trip to Boston.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Great Larry... it will be nice to have you. I suspect some time in the spring I will coordinate with Mr. t so we can get an "official" SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore next summer.
Todd...when I looked at 4547, it had a big sign on the
controller "1ST POINT ONLY". Is the banding still shot
on the armatures?
I believe that's the case, Jeff. I don't recollect any maintenance on the car this season. The curatorial staff at Seashore prefers to keep 4547 as a display car rather than an operational car, due to its fragile nature.
Thank You. As always you're the expert who goes above and beyond the call of duty. If you can't find one thing, then you bring in something else of interest. That's the way to go!
Regards,
Stef
Stef: Check out Todd's posting. He says that the car arrived in Seashore in 1956.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Another note in passing. Sometime in the first half of 1959 Jewett-built BU Motor 1365 departed New York for the National Museum of Transport in St Louis,Mo. I visted her about five years ago. She is in the open but under a very large shed that covers many other cars. This is not an operating museum and it appeared that little restoration work had been done on her.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry Red Bird, is that Museum at the St Louis Union Station ???
The National Museum of Transport is located a little to the west of St Louis center. I don't know if its actually in the city limits or not. There was a group of railroad cars at the Union Station in downtown St Louis which I believed where used for some kind of dinner train.
The NMOT is basically a railroad museum with a some rapid transit and light rail cars. They have a DC-3 on loan from the Air Force Museum and a tugboat called the "H T Pott."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Here's the url address to the St. Louis Museum of Transportation.
There are a few pieces of operational equipment that runs on the property, primarily a St. Louis PCC streetcar and a Chicago CTA car set. Most equipment is static, though, and the short runs are nothing compared to the long runs at the Illinois Railway Museum, Branford, Seashore, and the like. The long-term plan for the museum is to greatly extend the runs by annexing neighboring property and completing a very large loop. Since the MOT is owned by St. Louis County, they have the right to aquire property by eminent domain.
St. Louis is fairly unique in that there is both a St. Louis City and St. Louis County, unique political subdivisions, each withtheir own government and agencies. There is very little cooperation between the two, the largest exception being the airport. In this part of the country, when you say "St. Louis," you need to specify, county or city.
The MOTs biggest claim to fame is Frisco 1522, an operational steam engine that has run off the property on several fan trips, with passenger cars. The museum also made a big publicity splash a few years back after restoring the original F-unit FTs and sending them across the country on a publicity tour for GM.
http://www.thetrainmuseum.org/welcome.htm
The R-10's had several paint schemes during their careers on the Transit System. The first one as has been mentioned was a very classy two tone gray with orange stripes. In the early 1960's some cars turned up in red paint possibly to emulate the R-29 Redbirds. Unfortunately the R-10's were given a rather dullish red paint,not the vibrant tartar red of the IRT cars. A little later the blue and white scheme came into use, again possibly to emulate the R-33 and R-36 Bluebirds.
This had the effect of making the R-10's look ten years younger.
After that came the MTA Silver and Blue which wasn't bad if the cars were kept graffitti free but was not very complimentary to these stylish cars. The last paint that only about 100 of them carried was the Pullman Green one with the Silver roof. It actually gave them more of a railroad look. It was a deep green but brighter then the olive drab that was in vogue in the 50's and early 60's. I think the R-10's managed to escape the "Garbage Truck White" that was popular for a while in the 70's but I can't say for sure.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember that "garbage truck white" on many IRT cars in the late 70's/early 80's, especially on the #7 line. I always was perplexed as to why cars were given this color. It looked like an invitation for grafitti vandals, with an almost "blank canvas" appeal. The dark red that's now used on the redbirds was perfect for stopping grafitti. It's an agressive color which clashes with almost every color of the spectrum, taking away most of the stunning visual and colorful effects grafitti artists love.
I always was perplexed as to why cars were given this color. It looked like an invitation for grafitti vandals, with an almost "blank canvas" appeal.
This is exactly what it was. An IRT of Flushing Line cars was painted "grafitti resistant white" and sent all over the system, and laid up in different parts of the system, to allow MTA officials to examine where trains got "tagged" most often. Ironically, it had the opposite effect; very little grafitti was ever applined to the train, so the MTA started painting additional IRT cars in this same "grafitti resistant white".
--Mark
Don't call them artists.....artists create works to admire,the grafitti vandals are crimanls,and should be arrested for defaceing property,lets not give them a big head in calling them artists,reserve that title for people who deserve it.
I always use the word "grafitti artist" sarcastically. Nobody hates them more than I do.
What in the world possessed the powers that be in the TA to paint subway cars stark sterile white? As much as I hated the silver and blue, the white (Clorox Bleach) color was worse. if graffiti wouldn't get the cars, the dirt from the steel dust would. Its like dressing a 3-year old boy in a white polo shirt with white pants and white sneakers, and telling him to go out and play.
Supposedly, someone came up with the idea to paint the cars white so it would be easier to remove graffiti. Like almost every other graffiti-battling idea touted at the time, this didn't make any sense.
Not to remove grafitti, but ATTRACT it. The TA used a set of Flushing IRT cars as a test train to figure out where in the system cars most often get tagged. It had the opposite effect, so the TA started painting additional trains in this "grafitti resistant white" scheme.
--Mark
Supposedly, someone came up with the idea to paint the cars white so it would be easier to remove graffiti. Like almost every other graffiti-battling idea touted at the time, this didn't make any sense.
That stark white is too sterile and gets too dirty. I never owned a white car and I never will.
My mother had a white carpet installed in her bedroom. Less than a year later, the now grey carpet was removed.
My mother had a white carpet installed in her bedroom. Less than a year later, the now grey carpet was removed.
That is another thing in white that I'd never get.
Reminds me of a neighbor when I was growing up - white carpet in his living room. We had to remove our shoes before entering.
But white cars are another story. I've only had one but I'd gladly have another. They're actually among the easiest to keep clean, plus they're cooler in the summertime. White leather seats (like in my wife's Mustang convertible) are another story.
And on the subject of urban graffiti: last night's episode of Nash Bridges had graffiti as one of its themes. Unfortunately, it tended to glorify it more than condemn it - "modern urban street art" or some such term.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Funny you should mention white cars. I didn't care for them for the longest time, but they are easy to keep clean. Not to mention the fact that white paint typically doesn't fade. My folks have had three white cars, including the one they have now. I wouldn't mind owning one myself someday, if I couldn't find anything in blue or green.
The solid all white paint scheme was the brainchild of John Simpson, probably his only "Claim to Fame" as TA President of the time.
Actually, the R-10 wasn’t the only class of cars to avoid the white paint treatment; so, to the best of my knowledge, did the then-soon-to-expire R-16’s and the R-27/30’s. As for the R-10’s final paint scheme – exactly 110 cars were rebuilt in 1984 and had this green, silver and black scheme painted on it, which was how matters stood until their retirement in ’89. Some IRT cars were also painted in green at the time. According to one TA’er to whom I spoke at the Transit Museum, green signified a car undergoing a preliminary or temporary rebuild, just to keep it on for a year or two, and red was for a car intended to be kept for the long haul (as in all the remaining L.A.H.T. cars which were GOH’d). As a sidenote, 162 rebuilt R-30’s which were retired in 1993 had the Redbird paint scheme currently in use on the IRT R-26 to -36’s.
I believe there were actually two different blue (turquoise) and white paint schemes for the R-10's. The earlier version had more stripes.
I believe there were actually two different blue (turquoise) and white paint schemes for the R-10's. The earlier version had more stripes.
It had one extra white stripe and the turquoise was lighter.
From
Yes, and I liked the earlier version better. It gave the R-10s a racy look which, given their brute speed capability, was most appropriate.
In are local paper here was the headline that the FRA has given New Jersey Transit there approval on the South Jersey Light Rail. They granted the transit agency a waiver on certain issues such as using lighter glass on the LRV cars as compared to other NJT trains. And sharing trackage with freight trains.
Do you know what lines this would operate on?
It's going to be on the Bordentown Secondary that runs between CP-HTACH and FAIR in Trenton. From CP-HATCH to Camden it will run down the Pavonia Running Track, past Pavonia Yard and then on the Vineland Secondary untill it turns off into the Trnasportation Centre in downtown Camden.
When you said south jersey, I though maybe you meant into Vineland itself, or maybe even Bridgeton.
Months after the rest of you have seen and finished talking about the movie, I finally got to see it, Believe it or not, the local Blockbuster Video got it in and I rented it. The subway cars look quite a bit different from the days when I lived in NY. You all have talked about the closing door chimes, and now I have finally heard them. I had never heard anything like that before and I liked the tones very much.
Are there really places like the spot that Bonnie Hunt got herself into at Prospect Park, where she left the platform area, and the exit stairs were closed, leaving her trapped until the exit was reopened in the morning?
I believe so, as it was actually filmed at the Prospect Park station. I think that area was at the forward (or Northern end of the Manhattan-bound platform).
I am hoping to rent (or purchase a used copy of) "Subway Stories" sometime soon.
Doug aka BMTman
I enjoyed the film, but I would enjoy anything about the subways. My wife did not like it at all, she didn't care for the stories. I guess I was paying more attention to all of the transit scenes and not paying that much attention to the stories.
I watched it twice, and am about ready to see it again.
I did a double take while watching that particular segment, as I was unaware the Q line had swapped equipment and the R-32s were back where they originally entered service in 1964. I rode on the Brighton line during my next visit to the city after seeing the movie and, sure enough, there they were.
I found a copy in August 1998 at the HMV Music Store, 86th & Lex...on laser videodisc though, for only $10. If you live in the NYC area, try a place called Norman's Sound and Vision. It's located in Cooper Sq. (4th Ave-8th St-Saint Mark's Place). There are hundreds of new and used video tapes and discs in the basement.
One thing which I am always concerned about in the subway are the entrances where a gate is left open but unlocked. Theoretically, someone can create a situation like the one in Subway Stories by placing their own lock on a gate, for a practical joke or worse. I know of several such spots where this could happen in the subway, but I will not publish them here.
I have called the MTA to complain about this, but they did not understand what I was talking about.
If anyone from the MTA is reading this, please be aware of this situation and have all station agents LOCK gates whether they are in the open OR closed position. IF the MTA has a response to this, PLEASE publish it on SubTalk for us to view and comment on.
Thank you.
That revolving door type of exit turnstile that Bonnie Hunt went through, and trapped herself, is something I would have thought could have been locked too.
Is that the thing several people here refer to as the "iron maiden"?
No, it's a revolving door. An iron maiden is used for entering, however these were clunky and mechanical. The new ones are electronic and are just a revolving door with the ability to unlock in the entry direction with a swipe of the card.
Thank You! I seem to remember in the old days that those steel revolving doors could be used as an entrance or an exit. This was back when the fare was only ten cents, and a dime would operate them as an entrance. They were designed, however, that no matter how thin they were, two people could not squeeze thru on one dime. I often wondered at the time, if a heavy person ever got wedged in one of them.
Thank You! I seem to remember in the old days that those steel revolving doors could be used as an entrance or an exit. This was back when the fare was only ten cents, and a dime would operate them as an entrance. They were designed, however, that no matter how thin they were, two people could not squeeze thru on one dime. I often wondered at the time, if a heavy person ever got wedged in one of them.
Those revolving doors used tokens also. They were in use through at least the 1970's. They were only used for entrance. They had other revolving doors for exit. I also remember newer (probably from the 1950's) steel turnstiles that were used for both entrance and exit. I remember Iron Maidens that were really old (IRT and BMT) that were either electrical or pneumatic. I remember hearing a loud click when you put the token in. It clicked loudly a few times as you went in. Then there was the IND Iron Maidens. Those were less bulky and purely mechanical.
"I remember Iron Maidens that were really old (IRT and BMT) that were either electrical or pneumatic."
What goes around, comes around. All of the "Stainless Steel Maidens," are electric. Every unit of entry into the subway (turnstiles, revolving doors, gates) is electric.
What goes around, comes around. All of the "Stainless Steel Maidens," are electric. Every unit of entry into the subway (turnstiles, revolving doors, gates) is electric.
Yup! Revolving doors and turnstiles do go around and come around! Anyway, yes, the old Iron Maidens on the BMT and IRT were either electrical, pneumatic or both. As for today's stuff, its not exactly electrical. Its electronic; computerized. Everything today is as sophistocated as a Stealth Bomber, and costs as much!
Just call them "Metro Maidens"
There was an Iron Maiden just like that at Lorimer St. on the Canarsie line, at the Manhattan-bound entrance on the north side of Metropolitan Ave. I seem to recall a loud clunk at the end of its cycle, after passing through it.
There was an Iron Maiden just like that at Lorimer St. on the Canarsie line, at the Manhattan-bound entrance on the north side of Metropolitan Ave. I seem to recall a loud clunk at the end of its cycle, after passing through it.
Therer was also a loud clunk when you put the token in.
From
YOU ARE RIGHT!! THERE IS ALWAYS SOME FOOL SOMEWHERE
who would do the worst possible thing....
Yup always some fool, I agree with you there.
I am trying to update my roster of surviving R 1-9's. I'll put up the info that I have and any corrections or additions would be greatly appreciated.
R-4 800 and R-7 1440 are at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
R-4 825 is at the Trolley Museum of New York.
R-9 1689 is at the Shore Line Trolley Museum.
R-9 1801 is at the New York State Museum.
R-1 100,R-4 484, and R-7A 1575 are at the New York Transit Museum.
R-4 401 now 491 is a school car at the Jamaica Yard.
R-1 103,381, R-6 923,925,1000,1300, and R-9 1802 are owned by the Railway Preservation Corp. and presumably are at Coney Island.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry,RedbirdR33
You're right, your're right, sir!!! All info is correct but take this item into consideration: Car 491 was a school car at Jamiaca, and is now located at Coney Island Yard with all other R1/9s that are still left on the NYC Transit Property.
800 and 1440 were apart of the Museum fleet until they were sold to Seashore in 1989. There was also supposed to be a car 1208 preserved for the Museum but this car went to scrap due to circumstances that I cannot understand. There may have been a car 1600 that was supposed to have been preserved, but I haven't heard about it anywhere except in Gene Sansone's Book, Evolution of the NYC Subway System, sold at the NY Transit Museum gift shop.
Of the Cars that are at Coney Island, 1802 has undergone the cosmetic restoration and maybe the only car capable of full operation.
Hope This Helps,
Stef
Stef: Thanks for the info. I didn't know about 1208. There was a particularly nasty scraplist issued back in October 1980 that called for the scrapping of 1068 and 1701 which broke up having a full set of all R 1/9's preserved. THis was also the infamous list that killed off the 9 R-11's, AB's 2774 and 2899, R-10 3192 (R-42 front) not to mention some good Q's and a Lo-V. Many of these had been earmarked for preservation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Up until last year, there were 3 Qs left on the TA property, besides 1612C at the Museum. Unfortunately those went to the scrap line as they had no value for preservation as Museum Equipment. 1612B, 1630B, and 1636B spent their final days as the pump train before being retired and sat in dead storage down at Coney Island Yard.
The Lo-V that went to scrap, was it Lo-V 5302? 5302 was scrapped about that time and it's unique for being the only car not to have a center door as it was used for revenue collection.
-Stef
The MTA has nearly universally removed all its black-on-white signage on station pillars in favor of the white on black signage that gained favor in the 1980s.
They've missed one major station though...the BMT Times Square! It still boasts its black on white signs from 5 or 6 decades ago....
www.forgotten-ny.com
There are also some of those signs at Union Tpke. on the Queens IND. Ths signs are on the poles between the two express tracks at this express station.
Mark
You can still see the original "42" signs between the express tracks on the 6th Ave. line at 42nd St., and I believe the "34" signs are still in place at 34th St., albeit covered with grime in both places.
I think if you look carefully, you'll still see the old enamel "4" at West 4th St between the express tracks.
--Mark
Times Sq. still has the black on white signs on it's support columns. I wonder why they still exist here and almost nowhere else...
Times Sq. still has the black on white signs on it's support columns. I wonder why they still exist here and almost nowhere else...
My guess would be that it's because the Times Square station is in the midst of a massive reconstruction project. I'd be willing to bet that new signage is a major part of the renovation plans and that it will be installed once the station has been rebuilt.
No point in installing new signs, and then having to rip them all right back down again when the station is renovated. (Although that does sound like something our beloved CTA would do.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
But these old style signs have existed long after other similiar signs were replaced, and well before the Times Sq. project began. Just another oddity.
Speaking of Times Square, the ramps on the BMT platforms are GONE! they are now a double wide stairway with a short landing. Elevators are planned. The ramps did not meet ADA specs.
While I am unsure, the ramps at Coney Island are also probably in non-complaince with the ADA since the list of ADA stations only mentions the B at Stillwell.
I proposed the Stillwell ramps be replaced with escalators.
I propose that entire station be rebuilt, especially it's gloomy mezzanine.
Does anyone remember the little circle signs on the southbound express track of the BMT Broadway Lines. Each had athe name of the train(Brighton, Sea Beach, West End)? People used to line up there for their train, and the doors open right there. In order of Service Brighton, Sea Beach West End.
A G.O. has been issued on the Eastern Pky line for 12/21-12/23. Buses replace service at Kingston and Nostrand Avs. Shuttles operate Utica to New Lots Avs, and looks like trains from Woodlawn are operating to Flatbush Av. How do you like that? It's been many years since a train from Woodlawn operated down Nostrand Av.
-Stef
Didn't the 4 operate to Flatbush Ave. as late as the 80s? IIRC, Walter Matthau makes a reference to that in the original Pelham 1-2-3 as he leads the directors of the Tokyo subway into the Command Center: "...thus, an express train leaving Woodlawn at 6:30 PM would be Woodlawn 6-3-0, while on its return trip, its designation would be something like, oh, let's say, like Flatbush 8-2-5. I hope you're memorizing all this junk; I'm going to ask questions later."
You are correct. In the mid 80s, I believe, the 2/5 and 3/4 lines swapped terminals in Brooklyn. 3 trains ran to Flatbush Ave at all times, the 4 dueing rush hours; 2 ran to New Lots at all times and 5 to Utica Ave in rush hours.
--Mark
Actually, off peak the #4 has been terminating at Atlantic for God-Knows-How-Long. Since everyone but those going to Franklin and Utica have to change anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if this became permanent.
Obviously its worse. On the other hand, if they also had the #5 terminate at Atlantic instead of Bowling Green, maybe it would be better.
As of fall of 1980, the 2 went to New Lots at all times. The 3 went to Flatbush at all times except nights, when the 4 was extended to Flatbush. The 4 also went to Flatbush during rush hours and on saturday, sunday, and weekday evenings, it went to Utica Avenue. All other times it went to Atlantic.
Someone told me that the #4 sometimes goes to New Lots Avenue, which would make it one of the few trains that start elevated, becomes a subway, and ends up elevated again. But is that true? I have never seen it on any subway route maps.
The #4 runs to New Lots late at night, to replace the #3, which doesn't run.
The old #2 started as an elevated, ran as a subway, then ended as an el. The N train does this today. So does the rush hour M.
Technically the Sea Beach really isn't an el, even at Stillwell it doesn't go over any street.
Now I started thinking about something else while driving down Bway at Myrtle. When the Myrtle was still running, the intersection of Myrtle and Bway had 2 els crossing each other perpendicularly and both normal type els running over streets. (Actually its still like that even though no trains run on the Myrtle) I tried to think of another intersection like that but couldn't come up with any. Can anybody out there think of any others. That has to be the darkest intersection in NYC in the daytime!!
P.S. Although I realize Livonia & Van Sinderin doesn't qualify as Livonia ends there and picks up again on the other side of the Bay Ridge Line at Junius I wonder if at any time Livonia did go across, if there was an overpass there over the Bay Ridge track. (Then it would qualify) If I'm not mistaken thats where the original Fortunoffs was, way before the Source Mall.
"Technically the Sea Beach really isn't an el, even at Stillwell it doesn't go over any street."
It crosses over Neptune Avenue.
You know, I'm amazed that more lines don't go El-subway-El, given that so few lines in the city terminate as subways. Only the IND lines do that.
Add the M to the list, however. M, N, 4 at night, I guess that's it.
How about the Flushing line? Subway-El-Subway! No other line does that, near as I can tell.
-Hank
How about the Flushing line? Subway-El-Subway! No other line does that, near as I can tell.
-Hank
J and Z from Jamaica Center to Broad St. Sub-El-Sub. Hey, if they ever brought back the old QJ, it would be sub-el-sub-el.
How about the Franklin Ave. Shuttle which is the only line that runs completely outside, never becoming a subway.
It's really a railroad line built on an incline as it gradually descends from an El at Franklin/Fulton to a depressed cut by Prospect Park.
I'd say it's one of the most unique lines in the system.
It's only slightly longer than the trackage at the Shoreline Trolley Museum!
Doug aka BMTman
There is also a line that never ascends from a tunnel, yet crosses a bridge.
That line is of course the R.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The same could have been said about the old Concourse C line. For a while, it never ascended out of a tunnel, but crossed a bridge under the Grand Concourse near 183rd. St. I never understood why the Tremont Ave station had an exit BELOW the station until I was told this.
Is the Rockaway shuttle also all above ground?
When it terminates at Broad Channel, yes. When it is extended to Euclid Ave during sunny, summer weekends, no.
--Mark
"When it is extended to Euclid Ave during sunny, summer weekends, no."
It still does this? BTW, I think it should, it lets riders catch a Lefferts A, which can save them a few minutes.
I don't think they extended the Rockaway Shuttle to Euclid Ave. at all this summer because of the minimul amount of cars available during the Willy B closure. They did in 98, runnng full length trains (8 car R44/10 car R38). With the Euclid Ave station being used by the C on weekends, this extension is almost impossible.
How about the Franklin Ave. Shuttle which is the only line that runs completely outside, never becoming a subway.
It's really a railroad line built on an incline as it gradually descends from an El at Franklin/Fulton to a depressed cut by Prospect Park.
I'd say it's one of the most unique lines in the system.
It's only slightly longer than the trackage at the Shoreline Trolley Museum!
Doug aka BMTman
It runs through 2 tunnels - one at Botanic Garden and the other at Malbone St. For those who will be on the walking tour tomorrow, the 9th Ave. El was another such line, going through a short tunnel between Jerome-Anderson and Sedgewick Ave. More oddities are the subway being upstairs and the el being downstairs at a station. One example is 9th Ave., where the West End is upstairs and the Culver was downstairs. Another is Gunhill Road, where the WP Rd. Line is upstairs and the Third Ave. El was downstairs. An odd coincidence is that in both cases, the subway upstairs still runs, whereas the el downstairs is long gone. Another odd coincidence is that both els were closed within 2 years of each other (3rd Ave. El in 1973 and Culver Shuttle in 1975).
How about the F El, Subway, El, Subway
Technically, the Gowanus crossing is a viaduct, not truly an el.
-Hank
Heh, I was wrong...that's what happens when the nearest reference is a 1954 BoT BMT Division map (right over the computers)
-Hank
How about the F train in Brooklyn: subway-el-subway-el!
How about the Market Frankford Line. el-subway-el.
Some of the Bart Trains in East Bay do the same thing, and Chicago. How about the Q or B Trains that cross the same river twice, once by Bridge and the 2nd time by Tunnel yes the M also and the F by tunnel twice
So do the trains going from Brooklyn to the Bronx.
What about the Blue line in Washington:
el-subway-el-subway-el-subway-el.
Or the #1 from Van Cortlandt -- El-subway-El-subway. If you consider the fact that the South Ferry terminal is a loop back up to VCP then it's El-subway-El-subway-El-subway-El.
Chuck
The G runs from Smith-9th to Continental Avenue, yet only the first stop is outside;
The C, E and R never get above ground;
The #1 is subway, el, subway, el (from South Ferry)
The J and 7 spend most of their time on els. I don't know which line spends the most time outside though.
www.forgotten-ny.com
How about the LIRR Bklyn line:SubwayelSubwayWhatever you call ENY Station!!!SubwayDiesel yard JamaicaInteresting trip!!!
>>>Subway
el
Subway
Whatever you call ENY Station!!!
Subway
Diesel yard
Jamaica>>>
I'd have to call the East New York station at grade, since the street is on the same level.
At one point of course, the line was all at grade and boasted many more stations.
It doesn't have to be over a street to be an el. If it's elevated above the ground, it's an el.
Would you consider the Brighton to be a el between Ave H and Emmons/Neptune ?
I wouldn't. To me an el is a structure over a street, not an embankment. That is why I don't consider the Sea Beach "N" an el. Stillwell Av is more a building than en el with no street under it. Eugenius mentioned the overpass over Neptune Av. Thats just an overpass over a cross street. However I consider the Babylon LIRR branch or the "7" Line over Queens Blvd els even if the roadways under them are just parking lots.
But this is just a question of semantics!
By the way, anyone come up with an example of 2 els (over streets that intersect) crossing each other as Bway and Myrtle when the Myrtle was still running?
Didn't the Fulton El pass over (or was it under?) the Fifth Ave. El in Brooklyn?
Also, how about the Canarsie and New Lots lines?
The 5th Av & Fulton St els are before my time so I really don't know. As far as Livonia & Van Sinderin I was thinking of 2 streets which intersect like Myrtle & Bway and keep going. Livonia ends there at the Bay Ridge tracks and picks up on the other side at Junius St. Anyone know if Livona ever went thru such as an overpass? Wasn't the original Fortunoff's there?
Jeff, I would have to check old city maps about Livonia running through. But to hazard a guess, I'd say that before the Brooklyn Grade Elimination Project, Livonia may have been a thru-street with a gate-crossing setup (both the Bay Ridge and Canarsie Lines originally ran at street level).
Incidentally, Van Sinderin Ave. has an interesting past: at different points in Brooklyn's history it was called Van Sinderin Ave., then Vesta Ave., then back to Van Sinderin (go figure).
Doug aka BMTman
How about Broadway Junction E NY where the L goes over the J/Z
>>>Incidentally, Van Sinderin Ave. has an interesting past: at different points in Brooklyn's history it
was called Van Sinderin Ave., then Vesta Ave., then back to Van Sinderin (go figure). <<<
As the webmaster of
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have to know about these things. My 1898 Brooklyn Eagle map has it as Vesta Avenue with a steam railroad running on it. Livonia Avenue does continue through it.
Livonia is presently the only NYC street completely covered by an elevated.
Pitkin Avenue is shown as Eastern Parkway while what became Linden Blvd. is Vienna Avenue.
How about New Utricht Ave, isn t that completely covered by the B Train?
>>>How about New Utricht Ave, isn t that completely covered by the B Train? <<<
Actually no. No map indicates it, but the West End actually travels over 10th Avenue between 38th and 41st Streets, giving New Utrecht Avenue full sunlight for three blocks!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hello everyone!
I found out the whole tenth avenue thing today. I didn't notice it until I got to the actual intersection and I realized I was still driving on tenth ave and was now under an el, it was at night.
Kevin, if what I read in a book called 'The Canarsie Railroad' is true, then Linden Boulevard's original configuration was changed due to the convergence of the two railroads at that point (Bay Ridge and BRB&C RR).
The original route of Linden Blvd. would have had it running a couple of blocks further south where the present day Dewitt Ave. is located. To simplify construction of the railroad overpasses over Linden Blvd., the street was snaked north into Hegeman Street until after the railroad tresles.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>The original route of Linden Blvd. would have had it running a couple of blocks further south
where the present day Dewitt Ave. is located. To simplify construction of the railroad overpasses
over Linden Blvd., the street was snaked north into Hegeman Street until after the railroad tresles. <<
That would explain its unusual northeastward swing, although since two overpasses are needed anyway, why would it be easier to build them closer together?
While they're discussing what subway lines are el-subway-el and the opposite above, consider the strange case of Linden Blvd:
4 lane main road from Flatbush to Kings Hwy
10 lane virtual expressway with stoplights from Kings Hwy to Conduit
Exists as two alleyways on Pitkin Ave. and DeSarc Road in Ozone Park
4 lane road from Cross Bay Blvd to Hawtree Street
After yet another interruption for Aqueduct, a 4 lane main road from Rockaway Blvd to the Southern State Pkway in Elmont.
No other main road in NYC has as many interruptions and changes of character. In reality it is an amalgamation of local streets, new Depression construction, and old trails in Eastern Queens.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Good observations about Linden Blvd., Kevin. I would surmise that someone could write a thesis on the peculiarities of Linden Blvd. all by itself!
My guess on why it goes from a four lane street throughout much of Flatbush and then turns into a highway-type road in East New York might have something to do with the fact that the ENY sections were still undeveloped farmland while Flatbush was pretty much already "urbanized" with narrower streets, etc. When auto travel became the norm in Brooklyn (as elsewhere) the City powerbrokers realized that to adequately handle LI bound traffic was to make Linden a grand boulevard heading out east to the Conduit. That's my own hunch.
(BTW, hopefully I will get the book "Of Cabbages and Kings County", as a holiday gift. It should shed some light on this and similar topics of Brooklyn's change from agrarian living to urban sprall.)
Doug aka BMTman
[That would explain its unusual northeastward swing, although since two
overpasses are needed anyway, why would it be easier to build them
closer together?]
Kevin, notice how at the northside of Linden the two railroad lines share a wide earthen embankment. This saved time and money as less steel structure was needed by diverting the street closer to where the Bay Ridge and Canarsie run paralell and almost converge. Obviously, had Linden been kept as a straight thoroughfare two completely separate steel tresles would have been needed (and with a larger span) as the two lines are much further apart at Dewitt Ave (original Linden crossing).
Doug aka BMTman
There's a stretch of Linden Blvd which exists as a residential side street between Cross Bay Blvd and Hawtree Street.
Wayne
Hey, if Linden was a few blocks south where would Coney Island Joe's be?
Coney Island Joes would have been on the southside of Linden Blvd. since there would have been no Bay Ridge embankment (or current Linden Shops). Before the Grade Elimination Project Linden ran straight through to Pennsylvannia Ave. (there was no Dewitt Ave.). Both the Canarsie Line and the LIRR Bay Ridge branch would have crossed Linden at grade.
The way Linden runs now, snaking northward, it cuts into five blocks of Hegeman Ave. Again, I got my source material from a good -- albeit hard to find -- book called "The Brooklyn & Rockaway Beach Railroad: The Canarsie Railroad" self-published in 1976 by a William Fausser (sp?). I believe he was a former ERA man.
Doug aka BMTman
Although its more than just NYC but also Nassau and Suffolk how about Northern Blvd? Its hard to believe the road going past all the North Fork Wineries to Orient Point is the same road going from the 59th St Bridge.
And while we're at it the rural narrow 2 lane Hillside Av E/O the E. Williston Station is the same Hillside as the IND 179th St terminal!
>>>Although its more than just NYC but also Nassau and Suffolk how about Northern Blvd? Its hard to
believe the road going past all the North Fork Wineries to Orient Point is the same road going from the
59th St Bridge. <<<
True but 25A does not break character as a multi-lane main drag till you get pretty far out there.
>>>And while we're at it the rural narrow 2 lane Hillside Av E/O the E. Williston Station is the same
Hillside as the IND 179th St terminal! <<<
That road is called E. Williston Avenue for awhile there but it does change character in that area.
But there's no road like Linden Blvd which seemingly has nine lives. Like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction, it just can't be killed...
How about Broadway all the way up to Albany. Do you guys know where the longest street in the country is without a curve?
If you want to include the LIRR in the discussion, the #7 rises over the elevated main line at Woodside, while the J rises over the now underused Montauk tracks at Lefferts Blvd.
As a sidetrack, there are also a few elevated lines that themselves are a second deck on bridges, like the #7 over the Flushing River, the #1 over the Harlem River and the #7 on the Queens Blvd. bridge over Sunnyside Yards.
The J also goes over the abandoned Rockaway Beach branch just east of Woodhaven Blvd.
Some number 5 line Lexington Avenue thru express trains run from 238th street to Newlots Avenue does this count as el-tunnel-el?
Add to that the IRT Pelham Line crossing the mighty Bronx River on the Westchester Avenue Bridge. The IRT uses a fixed truss but the roadway called Westchester Avenue underneath it has a drawbridge that was usable until the 1950's. In those days the Bronx River was open to steam navigation as far north as West Farms, nowadays vessels of any size cannot proceed above Westchester Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wouldn't. To me an el is a structure over a
street, not an embankment. That is why I don't
consider the Sea Beach "N" an el. Stillwell Av is
more a building than en el with no street under it.
Eugenius mentioned the overpass over Neptune Av.
Thats just an overpass over a cross street. However
I consider the Babylon LIRR branch or the "7" Line
over Queens Blvd els even if the roadways under them
are just parking lots. But this is just a
question of semantics!
By the way, anyone come
up with an example of 2 els (over streets that
intersect) crossing each other as Bway and Myrtle
when the Myrtle was still running?
I believe the Brighton is considered to be on an embankment between the open cut at Newkirk and Sheepshead Bay Road.
Roads that cross the Brighton do go underneath it, but they had to drop the roads under the bridge decades ago when the embankment was built. I think the line was at grade before that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In my opinion, a line over a street is an el. An line elevated but not over a street should be considered above grade (or an embankment).
Also, I want to know what your opinions are about building lines above streets, like in older rapid transit systems, or squeezing them in between streets, like new systems do.
I think that squeezing lines between streets encourages park and ride ridership, while els above streets encourage walk on or bus transfers.
What about the M line north of Seneca? It's an el, but it isn't over a street. El means elevated, and it doesn't need to be over a street to be elevated. The Brighton line is different. It's on an embankment, not held up by artificial means (steel supports) until it gets about halfway to Brighton Beach.
Then, from Neptune until it passes over Coney Island Av., it's like the M,—a steel structure built over private ROW, which may or may not be paved.
What about the M line north of Seneca? It's an el, but it isn't over a street. El means elevated, and it doesn't need to be over a street to be elevated. The Brighton line is different. It's on an embankment, not held up by artificial means (steel supports) until it gets about halfway to Brighton Beach.
The same was true of the Culver Shuttle. I don't think anyone disputed that it was an el. I don't think anyone disputes that the M north of Seneca is either. I consider an el anything that is above ground and not on an embankment. That includes the traditional steel elevated structure like is in New York, Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia, as well as the modern concrete el structure like Miami, Washington and other cities with modern transit systems have. The embankment, such as is on the Brighton Line, I associate with railroads, such as the LIRR and Amtrak.
The LIRR Babylon Line as it parallels Sunrise Highway is something of a mix of embankment and el. Stations (and the approaches to stations) are on what I think would qualify as "el" structures, but most of the stretches in between stations are on embankments.
The one exception is the Rosedale station which is on an embankment. (I know, Rosedale isn't on the Babylon line for schedule purposes -- but I'm considering it there for the discussion of the "Sunrise El"). There are also some stretches in between stations (VS - Lynbrook and RVC - Baldwin) which might be considered "at grade", although there are no street crossings.
Chuck
How about the LIRR Babylon line? That is elevated over parking lots, same as the #7 train over Queens Blvd.
What about the M line north of Seneca? It's an el, but it isn't over a street.
So is the Brighton Line between Neptune Ave and Coney Island Ave, the only Chicago-type 4 track alley "L" in the system, as far as I can tell.
--Mark
I believe the Brighton is considered to be on an embankment between the open cut at Newkirk and Sheepshead Bay Road.
Roads that cross the Brighton do go underneath it, but they had to drop the roads under the bridge decades ago when the embankment was built. I think the line was at grade before that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
All four Southern Division lines to Coney Island were once at grade level. During the "teen years", Dual Contracts and other construction put the Sea Beach in an open cut, put the Brighton line in an open cut, on an embankment and an el, and put the West End and Culver Lines on steel elevated structures. All 4 lines were at one time 2-track grade lines, first operated by steam, later by trolley wire. As steam lines, they were also all under separate private ownership, until they came under the BRT around the 1890's. I have pictorial books with photos of BU's with trolley poles operating along alley rights of way on the 4 lines to Coney Island. The old SBK tracks that were under the Culver Shuttle was part of the original trackage and the original ROW of the pre-Dual Contracts Culver Line.
Some "purists" would argue that the Broadway IRT between 120th and 135th streets over Manhattan Valley is not an EL but a viaduct.
Agree/disagree?
--Mark
Some "purists" would argue that the Broadway IRT between 120th and 135th streets over Manhattan Valley is not an EL but a viaduct.
Agree/disagree?
I've always thought of 125th St. on the B'way line to be an el station. As for the unique construction, what about the Ninth Ave. El on 110th St., and along 8th Ave. Nice looking erector set on stilts! It was still an el.
Its a el, it is elevated above the street, just because the street dips down into a valley for less then a mile, It is still a el
["not an El but a viaduct"]
I disagree. Whatever the ground does underneath it, the line is still held up by artificial means. It's an el.
Stillwell Ave. is an elevated station. So technically, it counts, even though 99.999% of the sea Beach line runs along the surface.
Stillwell Ave. is an elevated station. So technically, it counts, even though 99.999% of the sea Beach line runs along the surface.
It doesn't run along the surface. The Sea Beach is an "Open Cut".
What I meant was the track runs on a surface, not an elevated trackway.
Regarding 2 El's crossing over a city street. I would think that Bway-Junction with the 14th St Line crossing over the Bway-Bklyn Line should qualify. I think that this is the only such example left in the city, although 31st St between 21st & Ditmars Aves is pretty dark due to Amtrak crossing over the Astoria Line.
There are several past examples. Fulton St & Flatbush Ave (5th Ave and Fulton St Els), 2nd Ave & 34th St (2nd Ave El & 34th St Spur), Chatham Sq (3rd & 2nd Ave Els), and the Sands St complex come to mind
The Livonia Ave IRT el crosses over the Canarsie el near Junius St. The Jamaica Ave el crosses over the LIRR Montaulk Line near 121st. St.
Yes it did. 1983 was the last time Woodlawn service ran out to Flatbush and Nostrand Avs. How many southern terminals did the 4 have in the early 80s? Name them all.
-Stef
Flatbush (rush hours), Utica (after 9AM in the morning for about an hour on weekdays and all day weekends), and Atlantic Ave (midddays)
Source: 1978 NYCTA map.
The 2/5 and 4/3 switch sure did simplify things. However, there are still a number of 2 and 5 trains which terminate at Utica and New Lots during rush hours so they can go to the yard at Livonia Ave.
In the 50s the 4 Also Terminated Weekends at South Ferry
In the 50's the #4 also terminated at Stillwell Avenue in Coney Island because my Sea Beach carried the #4 label before some shake up in the late 60's screwed things up.
Yes the 1,3,4,5 & 7 BMT Lines at one time terminated at Stillwell Ave during the 50s. What happened to Sea Beach Fred? B,D,F,M,QJ, Q,QB/QT also terminated there at one time also, and the NX went thru it
There Brighton Beach Bob, I'm Sea Beach Fred on my daughter's computer as well as my computer at school. Happy?
Good, now I know who you are check out my posting of changing the lettered routes back to numbers and visa versa.
Itb was posted on F Train Service
They should probably just send those 2's and 5's and any 4's that lay upo there weekdays back to the Bronx yards so that the 3 could have it all to itself. Maybe then it could run 10 car trains without having to modify 148th St. (Perhaps that yard could be used for work equipment, esp. any now stored in Livonia).The 3 was sent to New Lots so it could use Livonia Yard, but what good is that if you have all these other trains there, and the 3 still has to have 148th as its main yard, and be restricted by its limited length capacity?
Anybody had recieve Station Agent Score or Exam Answer? I took the Station Agent in Dec, 1998 & never recieve the score. I couldn't find the Exam Answer fot Station Agent #8024. Any body have the Station Agent Exam Answer #8024? It been a year & still waiting for my score. Just post it here or e-mail me. Thank You
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
There's an exam for being a station agent? mind sharing a few questions before the subtalkers come up with their own version?
Anybody had recieve Station Agent Score or Exam Answer? I took the Station Agent in Dec, 1998 & never recieve the score. I couldn't find the Exam Answer fot Station Agent #8024. Any body have the Station Agent Exam Answer #8024? It been a year & still waiting for my score. Just post it here or e-mail me. Thank You
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
I'm still waiting for my score too. What the heck is going on?
This will be a very impressionistic and sketchy. I
arrived about 10 minutes late, because the people at
the door wouldn't let me bring my gas barbeque into
the lecture room. I had been hoping to grill some
hamburgers and steaks for dinner. The room was full
and I had to sit on the stairs.
The lecturer Joe Raskin was very knowledgable and
had many proposed route and station plans from the
early days. He had pictures of the Broadway station
on the G line, where there is a mezzanine area that
was to be part of a connection with the Stuyvesant
Ave line extension. It has a huge mezzanine area,
which may have as many as six tracks. A lot of this
may be garbled, because around this time I started
hawking hot knishes and ice cold drinks that I had
left over from my job last summer on the beach at
Coney Island.
I also remember that he had some slides of an
inspection track on the 2nd Ave Subway in the upper
section, that was meant to serve as a place where
trains could be either repaired or serviced. He had
photos of various sections of the line. I was about
to explain to the audience that the 2nd Ave Subway
was in full operation as a luxury service, when I
was issued a summons for selling food without a
license.
He had several slides of the existing tracks at
Lexington Ave and 63rd Street. He had slides of the
lower level of Nevins Street station. There was much
discussion of the tracks and plans for extensions at
179th Street on the F. There were also plans to run
a line underneath Main Street in Queens. He spoke
of the plans to extend the Nostrand Ave line through
Marine Park. He also spoke of there having been
plans to have 4 tracks along the lower 4th Avenue
Subway down to 95th Street.
I apologize for the sketchiness, but I hope to
stimulate the memory of some of the others who were
there. Doug was there, and purchased 3 knishes and
2 soft drinks before I received my summons. I saw
him taking detailed notes in Sanskrit, which is his
native tongue. Mr. Raskin left an e-mail address
where he could reached for further information. I
didn't get it, but I think Dougie did.
I also remember Joe Raskin humorously commenting on
the ill-timing of some of the major proposals of
transit extensions. One of them came weeks before
the Stock Market Crash in 1929. Another one came
right before World War II, I think. He stated that
he was worried that recent proposals might
foreshadow some major world event.
Again, I was very impressed with his knowledge and
presentation and good rapport with the audience.
I will soon be announcing a public lecture that I will be giving on How To Get On People's Nerves With Adolescent Silliness.
<< I will soon be announcing a public lecture that I will be giving on How To Get On People's Nerves With Adolescent Silliness. >>
No need to, you're doing a good job of that right here.
Thanks. I was afraid my efforts were going unappreciated.
Your name is Esq. Are you John Bredin, Esq.? If not, I quess you are an attorney who happens to be a railfan. What do you specialize in? Fight any good cases lately and does any of them have something to do with transit?
>>>He also spoke of there having been
plans to have 4 tracks along the lower 4th Avenue
Subway down to 95th Street. <<<
I suppose that would explain the island platform at 86th Street...
I was turned away for no reservation (and never got a date for the lecture!) The museum is sure getting disorganized. Next renewal I'll go back down to friend level from contributor level.
I travelled an hour from the Bronx to get to the lecture only to be turned away due to overcrowding.
The museum should have done a much better job in getting the mesage out that RESERVATIONS were required. Without reservations and the prospect of having to stand for two hours - I just turned around and went home.
In my experience, Transit Museum events have to be booked as soon as they're announced, otherwise they sell out quickly.
I am a member of the Transit Museum and we get the announcements a couple of weeks before the public. Even then, you have to call the first hour of the first day--otherwise you're shut out! I think many subtalkers know that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I know that and I am a member. They never sent me a notice that it was scheduled!
How about televising these sorts of things on the city's Crosswalks cable network? Most of those channels are unused much of the time anyway.
I called the Transit Museum on the day of the "Routes Not Built" lecture (and I'm not a Transit Museum member - yet!); they took my name down; I got there about 15 minutes before it was to begin; I told them my name; paid the $5 and got in with no problem.
Against the wall on the Manhattan-bound platform of the 86th ST (Brooklyn) R station, the "escapes" in the wall are bricked over and this is in plain sight. Speculation as to what's behind there has ranged from nothing to two additional trackways. Indeed, the "underground bridge" over the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR is 4 tracks wide, only the northern 2 are in use by R trains.
--Mark
These "escapes" are also present at 95th Street. The mezzanine of 86th Street extends the whole width of 4th Avenue, and there's ample space for another staircase down to another island platform if the line became four tracks. Also (as was pointed out by Joe Cunningham on a tour earlier this year), the Manhattan bound platforms (on the east side) at 77th Street and Bay Ridge Avenue have nearly no columns (they're presumably behind the wall), whereas the west side platforms have columns running their whole length. Presumably this was done so that columns wouldn't have to be moved to replace those platforms with a northbound express track.
--saul
Any chance in contacting him and convincing him to turn over his slides and lecture notes to put online?
" He spoke of the plans to extend the Nostrand Ave line through
Marine Park."
Just an idea.
The 2/5 lines could be extended to Far Rockaway Mott Avenue replacing the A line. On the other hand, the A line new terminal will be JFK Aiport.
N Broadway Local
What about the 5 or 6 people who use Broad Channel?
Thanks for sharing your observations.
He [Mr Raskin] had pictures of the Broadway station
on the G line, where there is a mezzanine area that
was to be part of a connection with the Stuyvesant
Ave line extension. It has a huge mezzanine area,
which may have as many as six tracks.
Sounds like the connection to the South 4th Street junction. Did he have a picture of THAT, I wonder?
I also remember that he had some slides of an
inspection track on the 2nd Ave Subway in the upper
section, that was meant to serve as a place where
trains could be either repaired or serviced. He had
photos of various sections of the line.
I think that was in the section between 110th & 120th.
There was much discussion of the tracks and plans for extensions at
179th Street on the F.
Do you remember any of it?
There were also plans to run
a line underneath Main Street in Queens. He spoke
of the plans to extend the Nostrand Ave line through
Marine Park. He also spoke of there having been
plans to have 4 tracks along the lower 4th Avenue
Subway down to 95th Street.
This sounds like a summary of the 1929 NY Times articles on the "second system". Some of this is in the current version of my "Capsule History of the IND" article on this site; my revision to thi article has some more detail and attempts to lay out what the lines would have been more clearly.
I also remember Joe Raskin humorously commenting on
the ill-timing of some of the major proposals of
transit extensions. One of them came weeks before
the Stock Market Crash in 1929. Another one came
right before World War II, I think. He stated that
he was worried that recent proposals might
foreshadow some major world event.
The 1939 Plan was curtailed by Unification. Even the 1968 "Plan for Action" was curtained by the 1975 fiscal crisis.
--Mark
Yeah, Rakin had some nice shots of the South 4th Street conneciton. It is a vast complex that was -- supposedly -- to carry EIGHT tracks! Two of those tracks would have been for the proposed (more like pie-in-the-sky) project of the 'Super Queens Express'.
Doug aka BMTman
Pick up any other tidbits?
--Mark
A couple of people posted questions about the meetings. I thought I would try to answer them in one post, although I wouldn't mind seeing my name attached to ten posts. The answers are: Yes, No, yes, I'm not sure what you meant.
Seriously.... I'm sorry to hear that subway buff and Dave W. were not able to get in.
David Shanske-- you asked if there were any chance of getting him to turn over his materials to us? Perhaps a court order might do it, but maybe Doug could give you his e-mail address and you might contact him.
Mark Feinman asked about pictures of the South 4th mezzanine, and as Doug said there were pictures. What was interesting was that there were signs by some of the proposed exits directing people to either South 4 or I think Broadway. Maybe Joe Raskin might make some of those pictures available. As far as the 179th St station, I think he had pictures of some track or stations that were past there. I'm cloudy on that, as I had a run on people buying sodas at the time. Maybe Doug remembers. He also showed some signs that were in the tile work on some A train stops in Brooklyn, I think, which pointed to a connection to the Rockaways, that I think was to be a link-up with the LIRR. Again, Doug might remember.
I also remember him saying that at one point New York Central was thinking of abandoning its commuter service, and was thinking of turning the track over the subways. I think Joe Raskin mentioned that had that gone through, there might have been a super express from 42nd Street to 125th Street.
I don't think he was depending for his information solely from the papers. It seemed obvious that he had been digging in city records for years and years for this information. He mentioned one of the libraries having some gigantic contract books that you could look through. He seemed like someone who really lives and breathes transit history, and would probably be happy to share his interest with others.
Oh yeah, there was a woman, I think with the Transit Museum who was taping most of the lecture. She had a tape recorder running for at least half the lecture. At first I thought it was part of the surveillance operation being conducted by the FBI on me, but the woman reassured me that it was only for the lecture. She did however point out the hidden cameras that were aimed on me.
heypaul, I hadn't realized that you are also known as Mr. Train Control? Although that name fits you quite well since you have an R-9 controller in your apartment (now if we could just get those matching trucks on the elevator!).
As for the Super Express mentioned in Raskin's lecture: I believe it was to run from about the Manhattan Bridge, going up 2nd Ave. (part of the 2nd Ave. Subway -- due to be completed by the 22nd Century, BTW).
Recalling the projection slide, I think the first stop was Canal Street, then Grand Central, then 56/57th Streets and not making another stop till 125/127th Streets.
the most bizarre plan had to have been the IND running through Marine Park as an elevated line, meeting up with and terminating at an extension of the IRT Flatbush Ave. line near Voorhies Ave. That made no sense.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the 22nd century completion datetarget for the 2nd Ave. subway is a tad optomistic.
"I will soon be announcing a public lecture that I will be giving on How To Get On People's Nerves With Adolescent Silliness".
Tell me when; this sounds like a lecture I could like!
Sorry I missed this lecure as described previously. Looks like your antics were more interesting than the lecture itself. I love the bit about the gas bbq.
You should have had your CC tape piped in over the PA system.
There is a station shell of S. 4th St. built above the Broadway station on the G which has six trackways and four platforms. Had it been built, chances are the permutations and combinations of services going through that station would have dwarfed anything else in the entire system.
heypaul, thanks for giving everyone thorough yet 'slightly' slanted (not the R-40 kind) view of Raskin's lecture.
My only gripe about the whole thing was that the sponsor, The TA Museum, should have requested the large hall at Cooper Union. I heard they had an ad in the NY Times for this lecture, so logic would have dictated that the crowd was going to be more than just the usual ERA members and assorted 'Foamers' (I saw a good number of 'yuppies' and Wall Street-types in attendance).
Doug aka BMTman
Make sure to first watch the John Cleese short on How to Irritate People.
I have some BMT Eastern Divison questions I left out from last
time. When the JJ was dropped on July 1st, 1968, and replaced by the
KK, why was the flyover connection between today's J/Z and L lines
not used since then? They could have send the KK to/from Canarsie with
the LL, like they used to when the Broadway Brooklyn Locals ran to and
from Canarsie in the past. Will they tear down this flyover connect-
tion by 2001 as part of the BMT Eastern Division's East New York re-
habilitation project? Will there be anymore K service to/from the BMT
Broadway-Brooklyn Line when the 63rd Street Connection opens? I would
operate the K from Bedford-Park Blvd on 8th Avenue to West 4th Street,
then to the Chrystie Street Cut. From here it will follow along the
former KK route to Eastern Parkway, and then use the flyover connect-
ion to Rockaway Parkway via the BMT Canarise Line.
As part of the Chrystie Street Connection project, why was the
Nassau Loop Connection severed? If they kept it, the RJ could have
used this connection to/ from Chambers Street during the rush hours
like the old TT service used to on Weekdays 6am-7pm before November
26th, 1967. This line was cut back to Chambers Street because of low
ridership and renamed the R in 1985. But why was the rush-hour R
service to/from Chambers Street discontinued on December 11th, 1988
as part of the Archer Avenue Line opening?
When the M service was put on the West End Line in 1986, why
did it run express on 4th Avenue? Because in 1994, they switched it
with the N in Brooklyn and ran M local and the N express. Why was M
service cut back to Chambers Street in 1995 AFTER the Manhattan Bridge
track work during Weekdays 9am-3pm?
James Li
Actually, around July 1, 1968 the RJ was renamed the RR (same as the Broadway-4th Avenue route), and the NX Sea Beach–Brighton Beach route was also discontinued (the same reasons as to why the RJ route was shortened and renamed).
The NX didn't make it to July 1. It didn't run again after Good Friday, April 12. The RJ was cut back to Chambers St. and became an additional rush hour, peak direction RR serivce.
The Nassau St. connection to the Manhattan Bridge was severed in order to link up the south side tracks to the Broadway line, while the north side tracks were tied into the 6th Ave. line. The south side tracks had been underused for years, having seen only rush hour service, and it was felt the bridge tracks could be better utilized by realigning the routes to the way they are now.
(The way there are now).
The promise of Christie St was short-lived. It lasted for 15 years, during a period of collapsing ridership, and then was lost. The Willie-B 6th Ave connection was even less useful for even less time.
It has to be considered one of the worst investments in subway history. If only we knew. Could have built DeKalb to Rutgers, terminated the 6th Avenue local at 2nd Avenue (or extended it east) while connecting the express tracks to Rutgers, and prepared to build a tunnel to the BMT.
Why was the KK renamed the K and cut back to Eastern Parkway when the
QJ and M switched southern terminals and renamed the J and M? Why was
the M service made an express during rush hours from Myrtle Avenue to
Marcy Avenue until 1976? When the M was rerouted to the West End Line
in 1986 due to the Manhattan bridge work, why was the M express from
Pacific Street to 36th Street-4th Avenue? Because of this, the express
tracks were jammed with three trains: B, M and N.
James Li
Well, both the shortening of the KK to K and the QJ to J occurred in January of 1973, if that answers that part of your question.
The jamaica line was considered at that time to be too long of a trip for most operaters. So the T.A. decided to eliminate the QJ all together and incress M service[i.e. shorter trip ,less delays]to make its people happy. The KK on the other hand, was a victem of short sightedness,and the so-called fiscal problems of the times.During the 70's,every subway route was touched in some way even when the lines in question were deemed 'ok'. I myself,was still a 'kid' at the time,but I aiso lived down the street from the Eastern lines. As a junior rail fan,it really hurt me to see all thoses service changes[due to the fact I really like the QJ TRAIN].To this day,I really miss the old Jamaica to Coney Island run.
The old QJ line from 168th to Stillwell Ave must've been one long trip, and it was probably exchanged with the M to ease the crews of the J line. It also simplifies things, with one J and one M line, instead of the QJ, JJ and M. Besides, the M was a familiar letter on the Brighton line, used prior to 1967.
The M ran express from Pacific-36th St from 1986-1994. Why? I'm not sure. Perhaps to make people use it as much as the B line, at least to get to Pacific St. for the IRT. Only for a short period when both sides of the Mqanhattan Bridge were open in 1990 did the B, M and N lines run express. Rush hours were jammed considerably. The restoration of Sea Beach express service on 4th Ave. coincided with the M being reduced to a local. The way the MTA keeps cutting M service, I'd expect absolutley no service south of Broad St in a few years ...
I have one more question. In the past, someone told me that there was
a 4-car train of R-46 cars parked in Chambers Street for a movie film-
ing. Why did they use 75-foot cars to shoot movies on this line? The
75-foot cars are NOT supposed be on any BMT Eastern Division Line,
because of the sharp curves that could cause these cars to sideswipe
each other. Bu I'm surprised that the 75-foot cars could execute those
extremely sharp curves on the N and R lines between 5th Avenue and
57th Street-7th Avenue, north of City Hall, and between City Hall and
Cortlandt Street.
James Li
I believe those curves on the Broadway were modified when they tested them for clearance of the 75 footers. Still a tight curve though.
Because movie companies have loads of cash!!!!!
Some BMT tunnels had to have their catwalks chiseled out so that the 75-footers could navigate them without getting stuck.
I believe that 75-footers can make their way to the Nassau St. line from the Montague St. tunnel without difficulty, as the cutoff curve coming off the tunnel isn't that sharp.
I wonder if they'd make it past those 2 sharp curves just south of Chambers, then Canal on the Queens-bound track ...
South of Canal Street - probably; no worse than north of City Hall. 10MPH restriction s/b imposed.
North of Chambers - it's in an open tunnel area, should not be a problem.
South of Chambers (N/B tracks) VERY close. The two curves come immediately after each other, with less distance than north of Cortlandt on the N/R. I wonder if they'd have time to straighten out from the first before entering the second.
Wayne
I advocated eliminating all these curves by shrinking the entire Nassau St. line to 2 tracks, and 1 platform at each station. It would sure speed things up.
>> believe that 75-footers can make their way to the Nassau St. line from the Montague St. tunnel without difficulty
They do, proof in point the rash of new N drivers taking the wrong lineup a few months ago. I have to assume that they weren't all R40 or R32's.
75' cars can be operated as far as Eastern Pkwy, and then
all the way to Canarsie. The curves at Crescent St.
prevent any operation farther than that towards Jamaica.
It's not possible to get to Metroploitan Av. at all due to
the restrictions of the interlocking at Myrtle/Broadway.
All this is anecdotal anyway. For a 75' car to get there
in the first place the Williamsburg bridge would have to
be single tracked. Only one train at a time could pass
because of the possibility of a side swipe.
There was once a G.O. late nights for the D in the late
80's. It involved closing the Manhattan bridge and routing
D's through the Montague St. tube up the Nassau St. line.
The train took on a relay man at Essex St. There the
regular motorman changed ends while the relay man took the
train out onto the bridge. The train would reverse direction and then travel uptown and through the little used Essex/Christie Sts. cut to return to the sixth Avenue line.
Odd one huh? But that's how 75' cars have been to the Nassau St. line.
That particular GO was used on the D line well before the R68 showed up.
But wasn't it done when the R-44's were there? I know that that period, in the 70's to the early 80's, I had been in trains that did that, but it was always 32's or 44's. I don't remember if the 44's ever did that.
The sidewsipe danger on the bridge should have been eliminated by the rebuilding of the curve on the Brooklyn approach. As for the straight span, since the cars are not any wider (as is popularly assumed), there should be no problem there, and I don't thing the problem would be on the Essex St side, because the tracks are spreading apart there.
The cars did operate to Metropolitan. BMT just posted a picture of it a few days ago. Check the the earlier thread about 75 ft cars and M signs.
As all the clearance problems were on the Brooklyn side of the bridge, Nassau St. was not the problem, and the R-44/46 electronic side signs have the J and M (as well as B, D, N, Q, R, S and T) with Chambers St. and Essex St as northern terminals, the J, M & S with Broad, Chambers and Canal as S. terminals, PLUS the D 6th Av.-Nassau routing.
The cars did operate to Metropolitan. BMT just posted a picture of it a few days ago. Check the the earlier thread about 75 ft cars and M signs.
Never mind. I see he reposted it in the next branch of this thread.
Also, to J. Lee, I also saw that filming in Chambers, a couple of years ago, if that's the one you were referring to. Shocked me. For a minute I thought I was at Canal on the N & R, the way the middle tracks come up from below with R-46's layed up, when you are on a northbound train entering the station.
I believe this was done in 1982-84, when all R44 cars were on the A line. I don't remember ever seeing a 75' car on the D line during this time in my limited number of trips on it.
R44 did ran on D line in late 70s & early 80s.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
I never saw an R44 anywhere on the D when I used it during this time, but this was only a limited number of times. However, if the Nassau St. reroute was done by Brooklyn bound D trains, then there should've been no big deal, as the southbound Nassau St. tracks lack those 2 formidable curves at Canal and Chambers.
Chris: R44 Cars did ran on D line early & late 70s to early 80s than went on to A, F, & E lines before GOH.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
I know that all R44 cars were on the A line by 1983, when the slant R40's disappeared. The R46 cars i can say with no doubt were all running on the E, F G and N lines by late 84-early 85.
The R-44's came off of the D for good in Jan. '81 after a derailment south of Kings Hwy, and homeowner complaints of the rumbling of the heavier cars.
The Nassau reroutes began in 1969, (and the B would go up Broadway) and went all through the 70's. In May of '82 they began splitting trains between Broadway and 6th Av. during major reroutes, but trains continued using the Nassau route one way during stalled trains or other blockage, until 1984, from what I heard. Afterwards, Broadway became the route for all diverted trains.
I remember working in 207th St. yard in the summer of 1986 when a drag from Coney Island came up. It was R-68 2501 sandwiched in between four R-10's.
By the following year the D was extensively running the new equipment. The G.O. I was reffering to ran in 1987. Since the bridge hadn't been worked on yet the side swipe possibility still existed at the time.
The information I reported was relayed to me via a train dispatcher who is in charge of the tower at Essex St. If you care to ask him, it's the AM tour there.
One question: How could this reroute have happened in 1987? The D was running via Broadway, and 6th. Ave. D trains always ended at 34th St. There were no R68 cars on the D prior to the north side closing beginning in late April of 86. The first R68's to appear on the upper portion of the D were the R68A's in early 88. This reroute could not have been done in 1987. It was unnecessary, as no 6th Ave trains traveled into Brooklyn via the bridge.
If any 75' cars were used in this reroute, they had to be R44/46 trains that might have been on the D in the mid 80's.
I am simply passing along what the dispatcher told me. It may have been earlier or even later than what he said. But I have no doubt that it happned. The man is not a rail enthusiast, and could care less about the subject. he responded only to my question. To the best of his knowledge it was the only time 75' cars had come through his interlocking.
The original plan for the Nassau St. shuttle that ran during the Williamsburg bridge closure would have used R-68's in OPTO service. This as stated by the proposal brought to the union before hand. Citing the heavy crowds that may have used the shuttle during the rush hours and the scheduling diffuculties it would impose on Conductors, we opposed it, and after hearing the argument, management agreed.
Why would management plan to use 75' cars if they can't run there? And If they hadn't been run there before?
Well I think it's been established that these cars can run there...
Back in 1988/1989, I had a job on the R line that reported to Broad Street at 4:19 AM. Four R trains were laid up overnight on those two tail tracks north of Chambers Street that used to go over the Manhattan Bridge. At least one of the four trains was always an R46. Also, someone recently posted a picture here of an R46 north of Fresh Pond Road heading up towards Metropolitan Avenue. So I guess where there is a will there is a way.
Also, someone recently posted a picture here of an R46 north of Fresh Pond Road heading up towards Metropolitan Avenue. So I guess where there is a will there is a way
That was me.
Also, someone recently posted a picture here of an R46 north of Fresh Pond Road heading up towards Metropolitan Avenue. So I guess where there is a will there is a way
That was me.
Apparently this was a test of some kind. I know for sure that running two simultaneously will cause a collision. The end excess on the two trains won't clear at the interlocking entering Myrtle.
One of the books in my collection is the engineering study performed on clearances before the 75' cars were ordered.
Did any of you know a similar proposal was made and a study performed for the R-62's? They could have come a lot bigger!
Apparently this was a test of some kind. I know for sure that running two simultaneously will cause a collision. The end excess on the two trains won't clear at the interlocking entering Myrtle.
One of the books in my collection is the engineering study performed on clearances before the 75' cars were ordered.
Did any of you know a similar proposal was made and a study performed for the R-62's? They could have come a lot bigger!
No, it wasn't a test. It was a fan trip run by the ERA during their New York convention on 7/4/1976. You are correct in assuming that it wasn't in regular revenue service. The R-46 during this fan trip did go over the Williamsburg Bridge, down the Broadway El, onto the Myrtle Ave. Line to Metropolitan Ave., and to Rockaway Parkway on the Canarsie Line.
Thank you for that info. Events that far back are a bit beyond my memory. I only go back as far a 1983 in this stuff. Anything further I have to get from my breathren or from printed materiel.
It must have been a hell of a trip with my favorite cars being run as designed. Good ol cars could do 70 back then before they were emasculated. Shame I missed that, but at least I remember the rest.
A Daily News article says that the new contract broadbands car and bus maintenance titles, and that could be a reason many will vote to reject it. Through our discussions here, I have come to believe that transit workers have some legitimate grievances. In my view, however, this is not one of them.
Narrow titles are a reason why you can have work that needs to be done, and have workers with nothing to do. It's a reason for the "it's not my job" reputation of public servants. Worse, the most experienced employees also have the most seniority, and they pick the easiest work. Green employees end up doing the critical jobs.
If anything, the TA should go farther. A bus driver who can drive during rush hours, and clean out and change the oil on a bus between rush hours, is worth more than a worker who merely drives, merely cleans, or merely maintains. Pay should be based on the number of tasks one is willing and qualified to do. And those who can be counted upon to take care of things on their own should be paid more than those who only do what they are told.
Let me give you an example. I have a grad degree, and spend most of my time compiling and analyzing data, and writing reports. The census is coming up next year, and according to other records DCP found the census bureau was denying the existance, and not sending forms, to several hundred thousand NYC apartments.
Someone had to go and count mailboxes and doorbells, to check those records. Everyone else was busy, but everything I'm working on was sitting on someone else's desk. So I went out and counted for, I'd guess, about 30 days, all over the city. It was grunt work but important, so I didn't say "its not my job."
Narrow titles don't make workers happy, unless their goal is to as little work as possible. Indeed, didn't Mr. R46 complain at one point how little conductors are taught about quick repairs which may be needed to keep trains moving, and how little they are allowed to do?
Lots of public managers, and union reps, confuse productivity with cuts in wages, benefits, and working conditions. Keeping people working by having them do a variety of tasks as required is actual productivity. Workers should get a cut of the benefits, but they shouldn't object.
I laughed at the "broadbanding" complaints this morning, particularly Juan Gonzalez's sympathetic column. What a dream world these TWU guys are in. The "it's not my job" attitude is what a lot of these guys live for. Too damn bad, how many taxpayers have the luxury of narrow reponsibilities? The complaints over discipline procedures are a laugh also. So the MTA finally has some control over their own employees and the union is not happy about it. Also too damn bad. By the way, did your union give you grief over taking the initiative on the census issue?
(Did my union give me grief)?
No one gave me grief. Among professional titles, as long as you are qualified, you are expected to do work. DC37 could have argued that I should not be able to do my own typing, use an answering machine, etc. But the clericals are still employed and do almost no work, which seems to suit most of them.
When we asked our "trades people" to use a computer based work order system they responded:
"Would you give a hammer to a secratary??? Why are you giving a Carpenter a keyboard??"
Their contract calls for them to record their work detail, never says how they have to record it. You have to see our introduction to window class full of journeymen>G<.
I might be attempted to agree Larry. In the case here it
depends on how it's implemented so I'll reserve total
judgement until then.
From what I've seen so far it's bad though. I agree with
some of it. It is more productive for a car cleaner to be
able to function check the PA system or the doors on
trains that are being cleaned in the yards. Fine.
But if the TA want's to take Air Brake Maintainers and
have them do electrical inspections, then I draw the line.
After almost 14 years I still don't fully remember all the
myriad details of propulsion systems.
Morover, if an ABM makes a mistake due to his inexperience
it could be costly. A controller costs something like
$200,000! Not to mention the delays factored in to that
breakdown.
Train them, OK. But if you have trained as an electrician,
would you want to get all filthy as a CMF? He's a truck
and axle man. Or if you were a bus operator, would you
want to get greasy changing oil?
There are employee morale issues here. We are not laborers
fighting not to sweep and only mop. The titles in question
are skilled trades. Where for an example the electricians
I commonly work with flagging. They are contractor's
employees. They are IBEW local 3 electricians. They earn
upwards of $35 an hour. Far more than a CME. He's a car
electrician. So after taking a pay cut for the job
security of the TA, you tell me now I have to do work out
side of my normal job description? That's the attitude of
most of these men. It's a profesional thing. Would you ask
a dentist to repair eyeglasses? This is not the same as
asking carpenters to to do data entry. It's an entirely
different job you're asking some of them to do.
I don't think this contract will be voted through. It
concedes way more than anyone expected. In a time when the
TA is flush with cash, it's an outrage. If the TA was
broke I could almost understand.
"This is worth 12%?" is what many of these skilled
mecanics and electricians will be asking in the next few
weeks. I dare say that many will say "NO". In the ensuing
year the Authority may lose some of these valuable
employee's as they seek better treatment and pay else
where. And they will be replaced with poor quality
employee's who are willing to accept these conditions
because they either couldn't hack it else where or no one
else would hire them.
Remember the mass retirement exodus of the 70's? You're
looking at that all over again. And this time with new
computerized AC propulsion, the system can least afford it
now.
And those Local 3 electricians I work with? Most are
former TA signal maintainers!
I'd like to hear Steve's take on this as he's directly affected.
I dunno. There are plenty of private van operators operating their own vehicle that they drive, clean, maintain, do the paperwork, etc. And they're happy because its theirs, they don't have the respect -- nitpicking -- discipling issues that seem to exist in the TA and other similar organizations.
Certainly you shouldn't ask someone to do something they do not have the knowledge to do. On the other hand, no one likes being an assembly line worker doing the same thing over and over either.
We'll see how its voted. Remember, there are people in car equipment and RTO who may be able to point to others in similar jobs getting paid more, but eveyone else at the TA looks out and sees others in similar jobs getting paid less. I did read that car equipment mechanics get an extra buck an hour in the deal.
BTW: my union's Christmas Party (aka the lunch that costs $600 in dues) was the day after the pact. Copies of the Daily News, with Rudy saying "This Raise is Not For You" were hung on the wall.
So much for the theory about contracts: as goes TWU so goes all the others.
Oh I forgot.
Those private van owners. You made a very profound statement about them and why their attitudes exist as they do. IT'S THEIR VAN.
(It's their van, so private van operators have a positive attitude).
That's what disturbs me about some of the accusations Mr. R46 has made against TA management tendencies. They seem designed to eliminate any feeling the workers might have that its their subway. That's bad for morale and poor strategy. In the private sector, the whole game is about making the workers feel a sense of owership and pride (notice how fast they adjusted to new supply-demand situation in labor, after treating workers like crap for two decades?) The again, with TA vs private sector management pay, I guess you can't expect leaders of men.
Larry, I'm going to go agree with Erik. At a previous job, I originally started work as a carpenter. At one point, the boss/owner decided that the company needed to get into the desktop publishing field in order to remain competitive. Unfortunately, there were only 2 of us who were computer literate and only 1 with the time to learn. I now found myself doing 2 completely different jobs, for the same amount of pay, with a raise promised in the future. You know what? When I left that job to come to TA, I was the carpenter, the computer expert, the shipping clerk and some other minor titles. As for the raise, I never saw it - I heard a lot about it, but you can't put that in the bank. When I told everyone I was going to work as a C/R, the boss was completely stunned. He tried to get me to change my mind, but why would I? I was finally going to get a raise and ONLY have to work ONE job.
Does anyone here really think that if I become qualified at two separate functions here that the TA will pay me more? As a T/O, if my job is broadbanded with C/R, I actually will make less, since the days I work as a C/R will be paid at their rate, not that of T/O. Hardly seems fair, huh? But it's just the way a lot of managements seem to be.
Erik, as for the Local 3 guys, there are a lot of them that are not the brightest folk in the world and a few I've dealt with from whose jobs I got away from as quick as I could, before the site burnt to the ground. But that's another story, way off topic.
Oh Alex, you are right about some of those Local 3 guys. They have a bad habit of bringing aluminum ladders to an electrified railroad!
In the case here it depends on how it's implemented so I'll reserve total judgement until then.
I think that sums it up pretty well.
Personally, I've been pressed into a variety of tasks at most of the places I've ever worked, because I could. But over the past few years I've come to beleive that doing dozens of unrelated things just limits your ability to keep up to date on any one of them. I normally spend most of my days writing software but I can also fix hardware. It took me a long time to convince my employer that just because I could fix small problems around the office didn't mean It made sense for me to go to customer sites to fix hardware. The people who were always fixing hardware could always do it faster -- because they already had the correct set of tools in their bag when they went out the door. I'd have to assemble a box of parts before I left and often forgot something - because I did it so rarely. If the jobs require a great deal of skill and familiarity with technology, I can see this same problem occuring at the TA.
Preface:The following comments are made prior to reading any other comments in this thread. I did not read the comments in the press related to this issue but I'll give you my (managerially biased)opinion.
I generally do not agree with broadbanding especially in the example cited above. The idea of having a Bus Driver change his own oil is not a bad one but the driver is not a mechanic. Aside from not correctly torquing the drain plug or stripping it on opening it, the driver may miss seeing a significant (safety) defect that the trained eye of a mechanic would. That would be penny-wise and pound foolish.
Where I would like to see broadbanding is in the maintainer title (in subways). Significant savings could be achieved in the overhaul shops by broadbanding the Maintainer titles. Currently, In the overhaul shop, in order to change an air compressor, you need 3 different maintainers: A CMA to do the mechanical disassembly and assembly: An ABM to do the air piping: A CME to do the electrical connections. In the meantime, the same job is done by a car inspector in the maintenance shops. The current maintainer titles include:
ABM - Air brake Maintainer
CMA - Car Body Maintainer
CMB - Machinist
CME - Electrical Maintainer
CMF - Truck Maintainer
MMC - Mechanical Maintainer
EEM - Electronic Equipment Maintainer
Only the CMB and EEM have unique skills.
[Where I would like to see broadbanding is in the maintainer title (in subways). Significant savings could be achieved in the overhaul shops by broadbanding the Maintainer titles. Currently, In the overhaul shop, in order to change an air compressor, you need 3 different maintainers: A CMA to do the mechanical disassembly and assembly: An ABM to do the air piping: A CME to do the electrical connections. In the meantime, the same job is done by a car inspector in the maintenance shops. The current maintainer titles include:
ABM - Air brake Maintainer
CMA - Car Body Maintainer
CMB - Machinist
CME - Electrical Maintainer
CMF - Truck Maintainer
MMC - Mechanical Maintainer
EEM - Electronic Equipment Maintainer
Only the CMB and EEM have unique skills.]
That's amazingly ridiculous!
In all my years in private enterprise, I've never seen management knowingly assign people to do a job they're incompetent for. In a non-union business, people are eager to wear different hats--and if you tell them to do something that's insultingly beneath them, the employees let you know and that's that. Like the time an engineer friend of mine asked a wiring person to organize his office, and she (justifiably) told him where to go. And if management needs a contract to tell them that having so and so do such and such a job would compromise safety, there's something *very* wrong with management.
But I've seen the opposite in union shops--people who knew nothing about a certain job being assigned because the job descriptions were the same and they had seniority, even though they didn't have the qualifications, and people who are incompetent or lazy who get past the probationary period and then can't be canned or transferred to a job they could handle.
Would someone be kind enough to tell me what's the designed maximum (ballancing) speed of an R-46? The main site doesn't have specs in the car roster, and Kawasaki Heavy Industries' website was less than helpful.
Thanks.
CH.
Kawasaki Heavy Industries' website was less than helpful.
That would make sense because the R-46 was built by Pullman Standard and they're out of the subway car manufacturing business. :)
I think the R-46 was designed to have a similar maximum speed as the R-44 (70 to 80 mph?)
--Mark
On another thread a while ago, it was said that it was 80 mph before GOH and 50 after GOH.
The R-44/R-46 cars were designed for automatic speed control
operation on the planned 2 Ave subway. They had a mode called
"Regulated Speed" where the position of the controller handle
indicated the desired speed and the motors and/or brakes were
operated automatically to maintain that speed. That feature
was usually disconnected, but I'm told there were still trains
around into the mid 1980s that could balance at 70. I don't
know if it's true or not...I never saw one. The trucks were
changed around 1980 after the original Rockwell high-tech trucks
began cracking. Sansone's book is unclear as to whether there
was a gear ratio change when they went to the replacement trucks.
I remember the R-46 cars in the years before GOH as having lower
acceleration rates than the SMEEs but slightly better top-end.
They certainly didn't balance at 70. Maybe 55 or 60.
During GOH, the control and switch groups were replaced. The
cars came back performing like a post-GOH SMEE. Balance speed: 50
Then, a few years later, the great neutering took place, and the
balance speed of these cars today is about 40.
Hmm, it seems the R44/46 class actually moved faster after their GOH. Well, any speed beyond 50 MPH is useless in today's system.
Why would you expect that Kawasaki to have that information? The R-46s were built by Pullman Standard with GE propulsion equipment. They were rebuilt by MK with GE propulsion equipment. Kawasaki has no knowledge of the R-46s
[Smacks self on head with large metal object.]
Must have been thinking R-68 when I wrote that...and the maximum speed of that thing is easy to remember. Anyone have a number for exactly how slow, though?
C "feeling dense" H :-)
Again, the R-68s were designed with a balancing speed of 50 MPH per contract specifications. After the field shunting mod, the balancing speed is more in the 38 MPH range. Since they are the heaviest of all NYCT revenue cars, they are a bit slow on the uptake. However, they will get to 35 - 40 MPH on straight, level track.
And if gravity helps, I have seen 55 in the 60th St tube with them. But then they faithfully drop to about 17 up the hill. LOL!
An R-46 only fares slightly better.
I've had exactly the same experience in the same spot. R-68s are akin to BBWs. They look and act slow and ponderous but once they get moving - watch out (forgive the sexist simile)!!!!
If that's true maybe I should give my wife nothing but sweets!!!
17mph, yep ... I've seen this, too.
--Mark
Like trying to climb a hill in fifth gear.
I'll bet the BMT standards did the same thing when they ran in that same tunnel.
Since I have just about written off the Manhattan Bridge as a viable route for my Sea Beach ever again, the thought occurs to be that I didn't get to travel on the Williamsburg Bridge because of repairs. How is that going. Are they going to divert rail traffic through a new rat infested tunnel, or will it be refurbished again for subway traffic? By the way, I have only been on the Williamsburg Bridge once and that was September 18, 1954 when our family began the long trek from Astoria, Queens to San Gabriel, California. Is it the Lincoln or the Holland tunnel that is closest to the Manhattan side of the Wmsbg Bridge? I can't remember which tunnel we used to leave NY. I can tell you this---that from the tunnel we soon reached the Pulaski Skyway in New Jersey. It's strange but I never thought of asking that question to you railfans until now. It would end a 45 year mystery.
The Lincoln's up (40th Street) and the Holland's down (Canal).
Yes Todd, but which one would be easier to reach the Pulaski Skyway with? That's what I need to know.
The Holland Tunnel is the one that connects to the Pulaski Skyway. It is also the one that is closer to the Williamsburg Bridge, so that is the one you must have taken.
Why would you go down to the Williamsburg from Astoria just to go back up to the Lincoln Tunnel?? I think maybe Fred's family might have taken the 59th Street Bridge. Also the Holland Tunnel is closest to the Manhattan Bridge.
Why would you go down to the Williamsburg from Astoria just to go back up to the Lincoln Tunnel?? I think maybe Fred's family might have taken the 59th Street Bridge. Also the Holland Tunnel is closest to the Manhattan Bridge.
Maybe, but being a former Queens resident, I often times took the BQE into the Willy B to get into lower Manhattan by car.
Hi
Hi
Happy Holidays to all.
Jeff: I think youy just solved it. We wouldn't go back up to the Lincoln Tunnel from the WBSBG Bridge. So we must have tooled south to the Holland tunnel. Thanks.
We used to use the Williamsburg Bridge-Holland Tunnel route quite often. Once you leave the bridge in Manhattan, we would keep going down Delancey St. until it becomes Kenmare St., then hang a left at possibly Centre St. At any rate, the tunnel entrance wasn't far at all from there. Going into Manhattan, the tunnel takes you to Canal St., and I remember seeing several subway entrances: the IRT 7th Ave. line first, followed by the IND, then the BMT/IRT complex. WE would turn north on Mulberry or Centre St. to Kenmare, then to the bridge.
"....then hang a left at possibly Centre St."
Impossibly! Centre Street has been one way northbound north of Foley Square for many years! Unless you took this route in the early 50s.
How the heck did they squeeze a 4 track line under Centre St?
How did they squeeze a four track line under Sixth Avenue? that's also one way. How did they fit a 2 track line under Nassau Street? It's so narrow it has no sidewalks.
Fulton Street at Nassau is two single track -stacked on top of each other.
And since there is a Wendy's in that area, the term Double Stack would be very appropriate. Rim shot!
Seriously, I would have to dig out my street map to see which street we turned left on from Kenmare. It's been a long, long time since I've been through that area by car.
Probably Layfayette. Center begins right about there and handles the northbound traffic from Chambers, and if you're driving it you might not notice it turning into Lafayette Street at that point.
Lafayette traffic goes northbound from Kenmare to Astor Place and Southbound from Kenmare to Chambers, which can be a little confusing. However, the merge with Center Street at that point worked out real well for the BRT, since that was where they turned their Center Street line anyway to head towards the Willie B.
They put a four track line under Broadway and Hillside Ave in Queens and Fulton St. in Brooklyn, all considerably narrower than 6th Ave.
I've seen Fulton St, as I transfer from the Franklin shuttle, and I wonder how a 4 track line fit underneath that street. The local trains must run directly underneath the stores or something.
Very carefully.
The Willie B rehab of the subway tracks is complete and J/M/Z trains roll merrily over the bridge once more.
--Mark
As a conductor who's picked construction flagging I see
the old Willie B more often than I'd like.
The entire supporting structure for the roadway on the
south side has been completely replaced. The approachway
has been also completely replaced with a new concrete pier
system to support it. The north side will soon follow.
The old walkway has been replaced on the south side again
with new steel structure and for the first time concrete
pathway. The north side remains only on the span portion
of the bridge, and will also be attended to when the
roadway and structure of that side is replaced.
The entire structure of support for the railroad tracks
was replaced in total. All new steel work. The old steel
had holes in it from corrosion that would put fear in even
Superman's heart. And he could fly!
Some of that steel is still evident on the north roadway.
All the signals were upgraded with new central relay
rooms. One is even in the original stone tower on the
Manhattan side's south. There are wheel detectors
approaching Essex St. station for the turnout and
crossover there. The entire track structure has been
provided with new fiberglass walkway. A real flagman's
friend.
The towers are being sandblasted and painted. When it's all finished only the towers and thru span will be original. This is the kind of treatment the old girl deserves, and what the poor Manhattan bridge should be getting.
Erik
Confirmed reports have the R142 at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers. They were floated over on barge all the way over from Japan!! The cars are numbered in the 7200 series (7250-1-2-3-4 was one of the 5-car units spotted). How do these cars make their way to the East 180 barn from Yonkers? Can anyone elaborate on the status of these cars and their in-service date?
[They were floated over on barge all the way over from Japan!! ]
I don't think so! A "barge" with subway cars crossing the Pacific Ocean (and the Panama Canal)??? It would get covered with seawater at the very least, which I don't think would be very good for it. I suspect it was unloaded from the inside of a ship, probably in Newark or Elizabeth, and then traveled by barge to Yonkers.
Oh right! I meant they traveled via ship to NY...my mistake.
Lets get this right! The R-142A's were delivered to Port Newark, NJ on a barge. Each car was unloaded from the ship by truck. All cars were then sent to Yonkers for modifications and tests. One car at a time will be sent to 239th Street by truck.
Also, the first car to touch American ground was 7220, followed by 7112, 16 ect. Watch Transit Transit next month for a report on the delivery.
Folks ...
As part of my IND History article I'm revising, I've put together a timeline of events starting with the "conception" of the system back on July 1st, 1924 with the creation of the Board of Transportation. I have a pretty decent number of items for this timeline up to 1975, but it's thin between 1975 and the present.
Can any of you think of a significant event that occurred on the former IND Division lines between 1975 and the present? I'd like to add these events to the timelime. I'd prefer an IND Division bias here, but an event that affected the entire subway system would be OK, too (such as the 1980 transit strike or the fare being raised).
Here are some of the things I already have ... others are welcome:
- Feb 1, 1977: New subway map displayed at Citiana Gallery that would eventually replace the London Underground-type map issued in 1972.
- Dec 29, 1977: F train slams into E train at 53rd St / 5th Ave; 30 hurt. While the motorman claimed to have "blacked out", the cause was more likely a "keyed-by" signal.
- December 12th, 1978: IND derailment of R-10 cars at Columbus Circle injures 21. R-10 car 3333 destroyed. The wheels of the 7th car broke loose as the train left 59th St heading downtown. The cause was blamed on "persons unknown" who tampered with a handbrake in the 6th car. $667,500 im damage.
- April 1, 1980: NYC Transit strike
- May 12th, 19??: All NYC subway cars 100% grafitti-free.
- December 11th, 1988: The most significant service changes since the Chrystie Street connection opened began. This included the Archer Ave subway.
--Mark
Dont forget the 63rd. St line opening on 9/27/89. The elimination of the IND inspired double lettering system in 1985 might deserve some notice. Retirement of the last prewar R1-9's in 1977 also deserves to be noted. I also feel the capital plan began in 1982 and continuing throughout the 1980's also should be recognized, even though that's more a system wide, not just IND, thing.
BTW, it was May 12, 1988 when they declared all subway cars "grafitti free". Which was shocking to me, because I saw grafittied R30 subway cars running on the J shuttle during the emergency Willy B closing, which didn't end till early June.
Chris: I have couples pictures of R30 subway cars with full Grafitti & i took it on June,1988. I think all subway cars "grafitti free" was after 1989. R30 was the last subway cars with full grafitti before went to GOH.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
Don't forget the "reversal of the Chrystie St. opening" (as the ERA Bulletin called it— the closing of the Manhattan Bridge 6th Av side. for various periods throughout the '80s, culminating in the 2½ year closing of '86-'88. In fact, the Archer Av. opening could be called "Chrystie St II", as that service change ended the same day.
Does anyone know what the pics for y2k are?
Thanks.
Well I am back in the NYC. I notice that on the 3 line, I saw Pelham cars 1887 and 1886. There were more cars that had the yellow sticker. The other four cars were made up of Livonia cars. Is the TA transferring more Pelham cars to Livonia? I also notice that there are still railfan windows on the 3. That is great!!!!
3TM
So 1886 to 1890 must not be linked. Over here on Pelham all the R62A'S are Linked with no front window. So if you want to look out you have to wait for a redbird.
I am planning to watch the R142's being delivered on Saturday. Are they going to the 239th st yard, or the 180th st shop? Also, will they leave them outside for viewing, or locked up in the shed? -Nick
Yeterday I had a railfan trip. Started at Livonia and took Slant R40 4435 on the L. Saw the new overpass at Bway Junction. I look real nice. I do not think it is done. It look like they added a few GTs along the line. 14st tnnel run was fast as usual. Took it to 6Av an grab the F. R46 #5724. Took it 47-50. Coming back I saw the same 5724 entering the station but wanted Q. It came in right afterwards. Slant 40 4322. Got the Railfan window. The express run rom 34-W.4 was excellent. Got to view the Dekalb trackwork. Wanted ride it as the Brighton express but couldnt. Took it to Atlantic and got the 3. R62a # 1915. It still had the Pelham sticker on it. Saw the new transfer at Franklin even though the conductor failed to mention a transfer. Hadto get off t Utica and transfer to the shuttle wwhich ran on the Manhattan bound track until Junius where it switch to the New Lots track. Next railfan trip will be the shuttle this weekend.
Yeterday I had a railfan trip. Started at Livonia and took Slant R40 4435 on the L. Saw the new overpass at Bway Junction. I look real nice. I do not think it is done. It look like they added a few GTs along the line. 14st tnnel run was fast as usual. Took it to 6Av an grab the F. R46 #5724. Took it 47-50. Coming back I saw the same 5724 entering the station but wanted Q. It came in right afterwards. Slant 40 4322. Got the Railfan window. The express run rom 34-W.4 was excellent. Got to view the Dekalb trackwork. Wanted ride it as the Brighton express but couldnt. Took it to Atlantic and got the 3. R62a # 1915. It still had the Pelham sticker on it. Saw the new transfer at Franklin even though the conductor failed to mention a transfer. Hadto get off t Utica and transfer to the shuttle wwhich ran on the Manhattan bound track until Junius where it switch to the New Lots track. Next railfan trip will be the shuttle this weekend.
3TM
i saw a picture of a IRT composite train from 1908 or so in a magazine as the train was nearing the Intervale Avenue station i noticed that the train had only two doors on each side.Was there ever a middle door added on?How long did these trains stay in service and what IRT equipment replaced the composite trains?
I think the Composite cars were replaced by the Low-V's (meaning they had a low voltage secondary control system) starting about 1918 or early 1920's.
I'm unclear myself, as to whether the different names I've heard over the years for earlier cars refer to the Composite cars, such as Gibbs cars, HI- V's etc. Were they all the same car, or were there several types of earlier cars used in Manhattan subways?
Did wood or composite el cars ever run in the IRT subway lines?
Hi V's mean that the voltage was behind the train operator, Low V's mean that the voltage was under the train.My question was what happened to the composites, did they remained in service? and for how long were they replaced many years later by R-21,22 trains?
I think only the old elevated gate cars were made out of wood, the last wood train went out of service in the late 60's as part of the old Mrytle Avenue EL.The IRT company forbid trains made out of wood, because of safety reasons such as tunnel fires.back at the turn of the century
The "IRT Book" reproduced here at NYC Subway Resources clearly states that the cars used opening day would be the "composite" cars, that the steel cars would not be ready in time. Of course, that was written well in advance of the opening day, so there is some possibility that plans may have changed at the last minute. However, there doesn't seem to be any mention of such a change in plans in any of the contemporary news accounts, so it certainly seems as if composite cars did run in the subway. For how long, I don't know. If it is true that city law soon banned them, then that would mean that the city was imposing unanticipated financial burdens on the IRT Co. quite early in its history.
What ever happened to the Private Mineola Car?
The Mineola is now at the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven,CT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Has it been restored and running?
Bob: I believe that it has been restored to a degree. I honestly can't say if its running or not. Perhaps Stef or Thurston would know.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No restoration work has been done at this time. I talked to Jeff H. about the car, and it needs plenty of work. To do the work, it would cost a lot of $$$. What are you to do? The body work has to be done by a private contractor which would have to be done off of Branford's property, while the mechanics of the car can be done by us at Branford. Is someone willing to make a donation? We might be able to get the project underway....
-Stef
I've posted on this topic several times before. The Mineola was
acquired in the early 1970s. It had been stored outdoors by
a private collector for many years with no maintenance. There
is severe deterioration of the wooden body structure in several
areas of the car. Since the car was acquired by Branford, work
has been done to stabilize it and prevent further deterioration.
In addition, since the car was found minus anything under the floor,
all of the required mechanical parts (trucks, motors, controls,
brakes) have been acquired over the years. These are of course not
the literal original equipment, but what we believe to be mechanically
identical or substantially similar equipment.
Because of the condition of the car and the intricacy of its
construction, there are only a few individuals in the country
qualified to restore it. We have an estimate from one of them.
The amount is several hundred thousand dollars. It is beyond
our current means to finance or fund-raise for, however I will
say that there is an active ongoing fundraising effort which is
being handled by a well-known figure in the NY railfan community.
The goal is to restore the car in time for Oct 2004 but as I'm not
directly involved I'm not in a position to make any promises.
It is beyond our current means to finance or fund-raise for, however I will say that there is an active ongoing fundraising effort which is being handled by a well-known figure in the NY railfan community. The goal is to restore the car in time for Oct 2004 but as I'm not directly involved I'm not in a position to make any promises.
I'm sure I know who this is :) :)
I wish him, as well as the rest of you, the best of luck in your fundraising / restoration efforts for this car. Just the fact that you even HAVE it is something!
--Mark
The "IRT Book" reproduced here at NYC Subway Resources clearly states that the cars used opening day would be the "composite" cars, that the steel cars would not be ready in time. Of course, that was written well in advance of the opening day, so there is some possibility that plans may have changed at the last minute. However, there doesn't seem to be any mention of such a change in plans in any of the contemporary news accounts, so it certainly seems as if composite cars did run in the subway. For how long, I don't know. If it is true that city law soon banned them, then that would mean that the city was imposing unanticipated financial burdens on the IRT Co. quite early in its history.
All info copied from "A History of the New York City Subway System - Part 1:
The Manhattan Els and the IRT by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard O. DeHart:
Composites (built 1903-1904:
2000-2059 - Jewett
2060-2119 - St. Louis
2120-2159 Watson
3000-3039 - Jewett
3040-3139 - Stephenson
3140-3279 - St. Louis
3280-3339 - Watson
Steel Cars:
3350-3649 - ACF - 1904
3650-3649 - ACF - 1908 - Deck Roof Cars
(I'm not going to complete the list. It is irrelivant for the thread.)
At the signing of the Dual Contracts, the IRT had two basic car designs, steel (a total of 675 were built) and composite wood and steel (a total of 500 were built). The issue of wood cars being used with steel cars (many ran as trailers in the same train with steel motor cars) was a constant source of complaints to the PSC. On November 11, 1914, Commissioner Crom brought the issue up again. Some suggestions had been made to transfer these (477 remained) to the els where the potential hazard of steel and concrete walls would not exist.
On January 5, 1915, Hedley announced that these cars would be placed on lightweight trucks and used in el service. New car bodies would be placed on the old trucks and used in the subway. A severe fire the next day (in which one person died), brought demands for immediate removal. On August 29, 1915, the PSC approved the change but many members complained of their "weight and obsolete material".
The actual work toward transfering the Composite cars began in late 1915. On October 1, the first of 478 steel bodies began to arrive from the Pullman Co. The first of 124 cars were outfitted as motor cars with Hi-Voltage controls and Lo-Voltage trainline wires. These became known as Flivvers. The remaining 354 cars became Flivver trailers and Hi-Voltage trailers. A temporary yard with 22,000 feet of track was built alongside the New York Central's Highbridge Yard. At this location the actual transfer occurred. Eventually some 477 composite cars were transferred to el service. Many older el cars were stored. The cars entered service during 1916.
I hope that the above text answered a lot of questions.
I believe that High-v means that 600 volts ran through the controller; a dangerous design. Low-V, like the current equipment, uses a low voltage control circuit.
I think the composites were the only cars that had wood in them to run in underground subways. The fear of fire in a subway tunnel probably convinced the original IRT operators that cars with only exposed surfaces of metal would be safer. The 1918 Malbone St. wreck amplified this concern.
IIRC, the composites spent their final days on the 3rd Ave. el, into the 1950's. (?)
I just remembered the "Q" cars- composite wood and metal BRT cars that had their clerestory roofs lowered to permit operation in tunnels, the 3 cars in the transit museum are examples- anyone recall what lines they ran on?
The Q's were converted from Gate Cars for the 1939-40 World's Fair. They ran on BMT Routes #8 Astoria and #9 Flushing. From 1949 to 1956 they ran on the IRT Third Avenue El. After that they were transfered back to the BMT. They made a brief one day appearance on the Franklin Shuttle and after that they ran on the #11 (MJ after 11/67) Myrtle Avenue El up until that line was discontinued in October 1969.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember a couple running in the very early 50s on both the West End and Culver Lines as shuttles from Coney Island to Bay Pkwy/Kings Hwy during AM Rush Hours
The Composites were the first cars built for the subway. The Composites were a group of 500 cars consisting of Motors 3000-3339 and Trailers 2000-2159. As built they were High-Voltage and had no center doors. Many of the motor cars actually ran as trailers in trains with the Steel High-V's.Center doors were added about 1910 and the in 1916 the remaining 477 cars were transfered to the els and converted to Low-Voltage.
The Gibbs Hi-V's came next. There were 300 of them 3350-3659 and about 100 were on hand for openning day,October 27,1904. They also were built without center door but these were added about 1910.
The Deck-Roof Hi-V's were next in 1907-08. There were 50 of these 3650-3699. They were built with a provision for center doors and were the first cars so converted.
Larry,RedbirdR33
what IRT EQUIPMENT ran on the FLUSHING NUMBER # 7
LINR PRIOR TO THE R - 12 ??
what IRT EQUIPMENT ran on the FLUSHING NUMBER # 7
LINR PRIOR TO THE R - 12 ??
The IRT 1938 World's Fair cars.
The IRT Flushing Line used standard Steinway Motors, World's Fair-Steinway Motors and even a few regular Lo-V Motors. Surprisingly the Lo-V'v were able to handle the grades very nicely although they ran in trains of all motors,no trailers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
so what you are saying me larry redbird was that the flushing line # 7 USED THE LOW V TYPE CARS anyway i suspected that was
what happened prior to the IRT # 12 me and my grandmother
rode on back in 1957-1958 right???
then the R 15 THEN THE R 33-36 right ??? thank you !!
The subway cars designed for use on the IRT Corona (later Flushing) and Astoria Lines were the Steinways. They were low-voltage cars with a different kind of gearing for the steep grades in the Steinway Tunnels. There were three groups of these;
The Pressed Steel Cars (aka The Boilers) of 1915 #4025-4036
The Pullman Cars of 1916-17 #4770-4771
The ACF Cars of 1926 #5628-5652
Two groups of Steinways were made by converting
a)Flivver Trailers to Steinway Motors #4215-4222
b)Lo-V Trailers to Steinway Motors #4555-4576
This was done in 1929.
The last group of Steinways were the World's Fair cars built by St Louis in 1938 #5653-5702.
These were replaced by the R-12,14, and 15 starting in 1948.
These in turn were replaced by the R-33 and R-36 Bluebirds starting in 1964.
I hope this answer your question.
Larry,RedbirdR33
IIRC, the deck roof Hi-Vs were the only original IRT cars which did not have fish belly sills installed when they received center doors. Apparently, they were designed with sufficient structural strength so that the sill wasn't needed. Shoreline's 3662 still has its center doors, but no sills.
And speaking of Lo-Vs, since the World's Fair Lo-Vs were also Steinway cars, they could and did m. u. with other Steinway motors. Those Lo-Vs were an interesting bunch. You had the Steinways, which could not m. u. with standard Lo-Vs, and then there were the hybrid Flivvers, which also could not m. u. with other cars. Can you imagine what it would have been like if the R-1/9 fleet could not m. u. with any cars outside of their individual contract numbers?
while shooting railfan vidieo on the 2-5-&-#-7 EVERY NOW AND THEN...
i would see A REDBIRD WITH WHAT ""LOOKED LIKE"" ...................
a r 21-22 call it a storm door but with the same railfan
window the good old r 21 - 22 had !!!!!! the type that slide
up and down and are split in half !!!
check out the car roster and yo will see what i mean !!!!!!
BUT TO SEE THIS ON A 1999 IRT REDBIRD ????
or is this a r 21 - 22 HIDING AS A 1999 REDBIRD RUNNING JUST \
FINE AND IN SERVICE !!!!!?????????????????
or was it just an old door to a r 21-22 storm door attatched to a
r 32 33 36 irt maybe that what it was an old "JUNKYARD STORM DOOR"
I rode this train on the Dyre Avenue line with the split window rail fan, they probably snatched it from an old R-21 train
I've seen it as well. It's been there for years, but that car has never been positioned at the end of a train. And it's welded shut...
The one on the Dyre avenue worked it blew dust in my eyes i didnt think it would open!to tell you the truth i think it was a 77 series car one of the older redbirds a R-28 perhaps
There's a few redbirds out there with that type of door, and I've been on them a few times. The windows open just fine; they are not welded shut.
what line did you see them on ?? 2 5 7 ???
Car 7773 has an R-21/22 storm door with a window that opens just fine. It has been at the head or rear of a train many times. I believe there's one other car, too, but I do not know its number. I have seen this car exclusively on the #5 line.
--Mark
ill tell you one thing !! I WAS A GOOD THING TO SEE !!!
i was shooting my rail fan vidieo last november 1 1999
on the i believe the # 5 five dyre ave lex ave express
REDBIRD RAIL WINDOW FAN CAR and to my delight waht looked like
an old r 21-22 Split in Half Design rail fan window was on the
other car on the oppisite tracks...................................
no two ways about it it reminded me of when i rode the r 21-22
series all past YANKEE STADIUM- beat those atanta braves 4 straight
and being a hot muggy july 1976 day the split window open
while looking out the railfan window with the air cooling you off
in the heat and humidity was the best air conditioner around !!
ALSO the same when i was in philadelphia on the 1928 BROAD STREET
SUBWAY LINE..... NOW YOU CALL IT THE ORANGE LINE.....
and the same dynamic there !! BUT could you open the window on a
BMT ""B"" car??? i could not open the one at the NEW YORK TRANSIT
MUSEUM but could you open the front window of the bmt b
when it ran ??????? thank you for your response!!
Yes you could.
The car you saw was R26 #7773; she has the window of an R21 or R22 at least at one end. R26 #7821 also has one; so does R28 #7875.
Wayne
I think it's R-26 #7773. There are photos of it in Greller's subway car book.
R26 #7821 have R21 second hand storm R21 door window & i think there is only two second hand storm window the other is R26 #7773. There is no redbirds on R21/22 subway cars & R21 #7075 was the only car wear green scheme back in 1987 or 1988. If you have NYC Subway Cars than see on page 77.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
142s 7213-7215 sitting in Westinghouse building in Yonkers visible from street as of Thursday night. Looks like some work going on.
Another HOT TO DEATH update at TransiTALK!
http://www.geocities.com/transitalk/NYCTransit.html
Have a blessed one!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Founder/Co-Webmaster
TransiTALK Platinum 2000
I don't usually watch wrestling but while changing the channels earlier I caught a glimpse on a wrestling show of a promo for a match next week on Wrestlemania 158-
Eugenius D. Train
vs.
The Transit Photographer
You forgot to mention that I will be announcing the match with my sidekick George the Animal Steele.
Where will they be broadcasting from? I want to come and throw a couple of chairs in the ring :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Let's get reeeeeady to rummmmble!!!!!
Play by play will be called by Marv "the bite" Albert ....
--Mark
And, it will be on PPV for those not in NYC!!!!
All,
Don't forget the Polo Grounds Shuttle walking tour this weekend. See the Upcoming Events calendar for the where and whens.
Also, a while back Mark Feinman posted a report of his own tour of the area which would probably be useful to all of you going on the walking tour. (I will not be attending due to "on-call" duty at work.)
I've incorporated Mark's post and a little bit of 9th Avenue El history and some photographs and maps into a new page Predecessor Elevated Lines: The 9th Avenue El. You all could print it out and bring it along as a guide. Anyone who would like to contribute more information and photographs from this weekend's walking tour please feel free to do so! Thanks to David Rosenthal for his contribution to the photo collection.
-Dave
i was only 5 years old and as a
child i rode the railfan window on cars INTO THE POLO GROUNDS SHUTTLE NAD OTHER CLSSSIC ORIGINAL HI-&LOW V
equipment as you see here !!!
i hope to have one day a museum ride on a old irt PRE R # type cars!!! thanks for the good memories !!!
Thanks Dave. I'd expect to have some more contemporary pictures available after tomorrow's trip. I'll also volunteer to update the page you created off my post after the trip if I learn anything new (which I hope to)!
--Mark
Forgive me, everything I know about doors is "old school", before
the "Vapor Mods". The other midnight I was in the 3rd car of
a n/b E train running local in Queens. At one of the local stations
(46 St I think) the doors failed to open in the first two cars.
c/r closed down and reopened several times, no change. All of
the other cars were fine. m/m checked all circuit breakers in the
first two cars, normal. When the conductor pressed the door open
button for the front section, the exterior guard lights illuminated
on the front two cars, but the doors did not open. When he closed
down, the guard lights went out and both c/r and m/m indication
lit up.
So, to me that sounds like either an open circuit in the door
opening trainline (uh, what's that again....D1/D5?) but all
other trainlines were good (specifically the locking trainline
which would account for the guard lights). I figured the open
was either in the
electric portion between the 2nd and 3rd cars, or a defect in
the zoning relay in on side cab of the 3rd car. I was going to
suggest to the m/m that he try zoning up there, but the road
was behind us already and so it was a discharge.
So, door circuit experts, what does this sound like?
I happen to read the report on the incident you are talking about. The door failure occurred earlier but could not be duplicated en route so the train remained in service. According to the report, the train was removed from service on the second occurrence. It sounds like you observed the second instance but you didn't mention that the train went out of service.
All that aside, that portion of the door circuitry has not changed. Because the doors are designed against a 'single point failure', two signals are needed to poen the doors. You need DRO (Door opening) and DRU (Door Unlocking) signals, simultaneously. That would be either D1/D2 or D4/D5. Since these pairs reverse function after each door operator, which pin/wire is not relavent. (ie: D1 will be unlocking at every odd operator and opening at every even operator while D2 is just the opposite.) What is important is that if either one of these signals is present, it will hang a guard light and also illuminate the door fault light. It's only when both are present at any operator, that (that) particular operator will open the door(s).
To simply answer your question, the cause could be the zone relay, electric portion relay (depending on car class) or a loose wire in the #1 junction box of either the 2nd or third car, my first choice would be to examine/clean the pins on the electric portions - especially this time of year.
This has become something of an epidemic on the R-42's. I see on average two to three occurences a week at Essex St. or Chambers St. With J line equipment. Since it invariably seems to affect only the lead pair, I vote on the electric portion.
This bears out DCE's descision to link various car classes. It may also expose a poor inspection team at ENY mtce. How much trouble is it to wipe the portion with an emery cloth?
In the case of the R-42s, it's a bit more complicated. There is a track grounding problem in the location you referred to. They have tried many car-borne solutions but it''s the rail wiring that's at fault.
This is not a new situation. 75% of all loss of power incidents on the R-68s occur at the 7th Ave (Bklyn) station southbound or the Grand Ave. station northbound. These too have been found to be grounding problems. Pacific St. was another hot area but it was for BIEs, also due to grounding. It seems that the grounding may be adequate for the HiV stuff but is too critical for the low B+.
That's something I'd heard from a non techncal person but had mentally dismissed because it sounded too far fetched.
If the doors don't open, why do the main lights stay on? They come off the battery too. Apparently the force of the 600 can get through the bad connections. The 37.5 can't? If then, why do the guard lights function at all?
It does make sense though because it always happens in the same spot.
It's nice to be talking about regular things again!
For older cars with drum switches, are there separate cam contact fingers for the unlock and open? I have found on some R32s years ago that by turning the switch back and forth similar to "wiping" the reverser for a slow train, the door relays pick up and the doors open. I also notice that since the split guard light modification, lots of corner doors are not opening. This was a particular problem for R32 and R38 cars.
Yeah, if this had been "old school" R-32, I would have suggested
doing just that...running the drum switch around a few times to
clean the contacts. We didn't try zoning up at the 3rd car which
is the moral equivalent of playing with the drum switch.
Now, getting back to what Steve said...yeah I mentioned that the
train went out of service, but very obliquely. As for door open/
door unlock, on the really old cars (R1-9s and I think up to
R-26), the unlock and open wires did just that. There was a locking
solenoid at each door operator. At some point the SMEEs got
changed and instead of real lock solenoids, they had a master door
opening relay for the entire car. The unlock signal just picked
up the relay. At what point did this even/odd thing go in? Was
that in the Vapor mods?
Anyway, Steve, if you happen to see the resolution entry in the
CED database (is that still on the "36" ?) I'd be curious to see
what the cause was found to be. Thanks for the scoop.
Anyway, Steve, if you happen to see the resolution entry in the
CED database (is that still on the "36" ?) I'd be curious to see
what the cause was found to be. Thanks for the scoop.
Those answers are sometimes (shall we say) skewed.
The reversing of the door open and door unlocking was done first on the R-46. Lets say you run a jumper on the #6 door operator from DC-1 to DRU. The fault lights on the even door operators, on that side of the car would light (#s 2, 4, 6, 8) If you then go to the DRO, the #1, 3, 5, and 7 will light up. We call this an ennunciation test. If any one operator lights up twice, it will also open with a single feed. This test is critical to determine the presence of a single point failure potential. The same wiring scheme is part of the R-44 through R-68A. A simpler version of it was incorporated in all other contracts during oveerhaul.
I've run into this problem on the "L" line,north end of Livonia Ave. It happens to the slant 40's 40m's or 42's, first two north cars north bound or last two north cars, south bound. They said it was due to ground return cables that were stolen. When I got the trains to Canarsie they always checked out. The failing to open problem is most likely bad conection between the pins in the electric portions between the second and third car. I've seen this alot, especially when the weather is wet.
I just wanted all interested parties to be aware that there is a new book out called 'GMC: New Look Bus Portfolio' by John McKane. A bus-fanatic friend of mine told me about that it is devoted to the popular 'fishbowl' model of the GMC series (still in use today -- was the featured bus in 'Speed', etc.).
Doug aka BMTman
I got *REALLY* bored and was flipping through the MTA's list of construction jobs sent out to bid and came across the following item. Does anyone think that after this is done that the MTA might at least run a railfan trip out to there? Don't most rainfan trips happen on weekends,ie: Guliani or whoever won't be working that day therefore no security threat?
A35814-1
STRUCTURAL REMEDIATION
CITY HALL STATION
MANHATTAN
$10M - $50M
This project is to remediate all structural deficiencies at the City Hall station on the Broadway/Fourth Avenue line. The scope of work includes the following tasks:
*Repair platform girders, beams, columns and brackets
*Repair of spalled concrete and cracks
*Perform water remedy work to prevent leaks
*Repair/replace damaged drain lines.
B'way/4th Ave is the B'way BMT (N/R) trains. 4th Ave in Brooklyn, B'way in Manhattan.
-Hank
The City Hall Station referred to in the contract is for the N/R lines and is currently in service. The one you are likely thinking of is the one on the loop at the southern end of the #6 line. That has been closed for many years with no chance of it being re-opened in the forseeable future. BTW: I was throught there tonight (with a friend) on my way to Chinatown for dinner. It's an impressive site no matter how many times I've been through there.
Once Rudy is out of office, the IRT City Hall station has a good chance of reopening and the Transit Nuseum will finally get its annex.
When the construction on City Hall Park was started they actually did some damage to the vault lighting but they repaired it (they were forced to).
Speaking of the BMT City Hall Station - the lower level would also work as a Transit Museum if they wanted it to (3 Tracks - 2 Island platforms)
I went through the city hall loop twice yesterday, It is still one of the most beautiful stations in the system. If it became part of the transit museum would they still hvae the 6 loop there? Although they have minimzed the noise, it is still quite loud when the trains go through the loop.
Yes, there were plans to put up fiberglass (plexiglass?) or something like that along the station platform to prevent people from falling onto the tracks and cut down on the noise level.
--Mark
I doubt that, as they need those tracks to lay up trains.
Speaking of the BMT City Hall Station - the lower level would also work as a Transit Museum if they wanted it to (3 Tracks - 2 Island platforms)
So would the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St (ex-Culver), which has a much closer proximity to Coney Island yard and is right next to the 36th St MOW yard for needed repairs.
--Mark
Yeah, but I don't think that would be the most accessible place for a successful museum. City Hall would draw alot of tourists.
By the way, I remember that station well, changing for the shuttle to ride a Standard.
Try standing on the platform while a train goes by and the
wheel greasers are acting up! Those concert-hall acoustics
really pick up the high notes.
Just as soon as GHOULiani goes to the senate he will push a "pork" item to use the station again, what the heck, he'll be gone, nothing more to fear.
Just to let you know #6688 was brought in to the shop on Tuesday. Now lets get to work and finish the job.
Give it a little time, George, and the Branford crew will do wonders on the car, no matter how long it takes!!!
Cheers,
A Dedicated Rail Enthusiast
Was just curious...what do you people think the odds are of fantrips to abandoned and closed stations, and that type of fantrip, resuming after Rudy leaves office?
The TA Museum can be very helpful their, i.e. getting us beyond locked gates/dorrs, onto those platforms of abandoned stations & inside Towers. I hope they will undertake a couple this Spring.
Mr t__:^)
It seems that Operations Planning at NYCT broke their promise to F train riders in Brooklyn when they told riders, Community Boards & Elected Officials that express service would be restored & now they said that they don't have cars to support the restoration of F express service in Brooklyn.
I think that's BOO CRAP, I think that they have the cars to support the express service & every year, they have so much surplus money, why can't Operations Planning use this money to restore F express service in Brooklyn.
You've made other changes in subway service except the restoration of F express service in Brooklyn, it's about time that F express service
in Brooklyn is restored.
Wait for two years from now, when the 63rd St connection opens, new B division cars will arrive, and the Manhattan Bridge switches sides, the Q goes back to Broadway, and the new V service replaces it on 6th Av. with additional cars shifted over from the L— all this occurring around the same time. This will support the additional service, and then maybe they will run the V to Church Av, allowing the F to run express. They really can't increase service much now. I'm sure their promises were for the future, as it usually takes them years to implement things anyway.
Who saids it will be the V on 6th Ave. K seems better since it was originally a 6th Ave Line
Because the V was specifically created for this. The route signs are 'via Sixth Ave'. Additionally, the most recent use for the 'K' route was on 8th Ave, and it was discontinued about 10 years ago. Probably still fresh in peoples memoies, tell them the K is back, what will they think?
-Hank
Not to mention that the K on all roll signs is in a dark blue circle. The V is in an orange circle.
It seems to me that if they do put a different service on the Culver, they'll have to run the G to Church. They'll be no place to turn it around. All in all, I think the second Queens local is as likely to run to 2nd Avenue and stop, unless they specifically want to lure people to walk to the Culver instead of taking the Brigton/West End and dealing with DeKalb and the Bridge.
I don't see the big deal in extending the G to Church so the express tracks can be used. It would be stupid to let that prevent full express service being implemented.
"It seems to me that if they do put a different service on the Culver, they'll have to run the G to Church."
Then the new terminal for the G line will be Hoyt-Schermonhorn Sts.
N Broadway Line
Hoyt-Schermerhorn is before Church. I do not think that there are any switches at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
3TM
On the 110B, the K is gray, for proposed Canarsie skip-stop. So that was it's last official assignment, even though it wasn't used in service.
If there is a major shake up in service when the 63rd St Connection, They could change everything around, and put new curtins on th trains, Who knows they may change the whole system like they did in 67, knowing the TA
If there is a major shake up in service when the 63rd St Connection, They could change everything around, and put new curtins on th trains, Who knows they may change the whole system like they did in 67, knowing the TA
Yeah. they would probably be better off giving the numbers to the B-Division, because there is more of a supply of numbers than letters, and give the letters to the A-Division. I can just see it:
"This is the A Seventh Ave. Local to South Ferry. Watch the doors".
"This is the D Lexington Ave. express to Woodlawn. Next stop 161 St. Yankee Staduim. Change for the 4 Sixth Ave. Express to 205th St. Grand Concourse and Coney Island Watch the doors".
If you are going to change letter for numbers, you better change the N to the 4 so Sea Beach Fred does not feel rejected. Here Goes Q-1 R-2 B-3 N-4 F-5 A-6 D-7 C-8 G-9 M-10 E-11 V(??)12, Z-14 J-15 L-16 Rockaway Pk Shurtle 13 Franklin -17 IRT 1-A 2-B 3-C 4-D 5-E 6-F 6X-G 7-H 7X-J 5X-K 9-L (x Means Express) How is that? At least I tried to give the old BMT lines their old numbers or as close to
(More numbers than letters)
Only if you are going to go to two digits. If you are going to do that, you could always go back to two letters. As it is, there are nine single numbers and 26 single letters, with one number (8) and 10 letters (H, I, K, O, P, T, U, V, W, X, Y) now unused.
Perhaps using Greek letters after Z might work:
"This is the 2nd Ave alpha train. Next stop 42nd St. Change for the omega and epsilon lines"
Perhaps using Greek letters after Z might work:
"This is the 2nd Ave alpha train. Next stop 42nd St. Change for the omega and epsilon lines"
I Like It!
From
LMAO! Funny pictures
But a Delta looks like an A with the legs cut off, and an Epsilon looks like an E. Hey, they won't use "O" for fear someone will confuse it with a "Q" or "P" because it looks like an "R". Besides, some joker would paint out the legs of the A on "A" signs, and mass confusion would reign as people couldn't tell "A" and Delta trains apart. (^:
Hey, John Bredin, Esq. Isn't it great that the Subtalkers photographed the remains of the 155th Street Shuttle? This and the R142's is the latest HOT topic on Subtalk. Cool!
Hey, John Bredin, Esq. Isn't it great that the Subtalkers photographed the remains of the 155th Street Shuttle? This and the R142's is the latest HOT topic on Subtalk. Cool!
Yeah! Now that the threat of the strike is over, subTalk can get on with what's important - trains, trains and trains!
From
Since there are More Jewish People in New York the Greeks, maybe you should use Hebrew Letter
Since there are More Jewish People in New York the Greeks, maybe you should use Hebrew Letter
Believe me, I've thought about that. I was able to find some Greek alphabet letters among character symbols on my computer, but couldn't find any Hebrew letters except Aleph.
I forgive you-Bob
That's great! ROTFL .....
--Mark
"Yeah. they would probably be better off giving the numbers to the B-Division, because there is more of a supply of numbers
than letters, and give the letters to the A-Division. I can just see it:
"This is the A Seventh Ave. Local to South Ferry. Watch the doors".
"This is the D Lexington Ave. express to Woodlawn. Next stop 161 St. Yankee Staduim. Change for the 4 Sixth Ave. Express
to 205th St. Grand Concourse and Coney Island Watch the doors"."
And people will really become confuse!
N (14) Broadway Line
"Not to mention that the K on all roll signs is in a dark blue circle. The V is in an orange circle."
How much will it cost them to put the H (prefered)(21st/Rock Pk.) or K in a Orange Circle?
N Broadway Line
For them to run F express service, another 6th Ave. line needs to be created, as the G is insufficient to serve the local stops north of Church. Perhaps with the new 63rd. St. connection opening soon, a new line will be created (V). More cars for such a line should become available when the R143 takes over the L line.
I wonder if they'd restore the lower level at Bergen St, or just leave that stop as a local station ...
"For them to run F express service, another 6th Ave. line needs to be created, as the G is insufficient to serve the local stops
north of Church."
Stop making things so difficult.
The G is sufficent enough. Once a rider gets on the G, they have the option to jump on the F at the next express Station or the A/C at Hoyt Street. The wait for these three lines will be minimum by then.
N Broadway Local
The G is useless.
Why should riders at these stops be inconvenienced so others can save 2 minutes skipping a few stops. It's not worth it.
"The G is useless.
Why should riders at these stops be inconvenienced so others can save 2 minutes skipping a few stops. It's not worth it. "
Agreed. If at all possible, we shouldn't be adding to the list of stations which don't have direct service to and from Manhattan.
Chuck
Make your point as to why the G line is useless. Is it useless because of shortened trains or OPTO? Is it because of the placement of its off hour terminal at Court Square? I fail to understand why an existing line can't be improved. It takes time and money of which the NYCTA has proven laziness when it comes to certain areas of the city. Has the MTA board based it's decision on the fact that since Greenpoint, Crown Heights and other areas have settled for lousy service, then points south of Red Hook and Prospect Park can too? What is going on in your neighborhood community board meetings? Have you been complaining to them about the forgotten promises that turned to an April Fool's joke?
While the G isn't quite useless, I'd hate to have it be the only train at my stop, wait ten minutes, then have to transfer to get to Manhattan. I'd say you need to offer the inner stops 8 or more through trains to be fair, PLUS the G.
But F service has gradually gotten more extensive over the years, and we're starting to get close to 16 trains per hour at the very peak. With more a few more cars, the TA could get up to that level plus extend the G. Selfish people would complain, but I wouldn't object is they split the line with 8 local from Church, plus 6 Gs, and 8 express from Stillwell during rush hours. Off peak, I'd want all the Fs back.
What would be bad is to run all the trains from Stilwell, with half express. Since some people would stay on the local, we'd have fewer trains and they'd be crowded.
How about The Express F start at Coney Island and the Local at Kings Hwy during Rush Hrs. The G to Church Ave the way they did it back in the 70s Run the Locals then as the K
F-RUSH HOURS CONEY ISLAND-179th EXP in BKLYN and QUEENS LCL MANHATTEN OFF HOURS same as now. K-RUSH HOURS LOCAL KINGS HWY-Anywhere in Queens via 63rd St tunnel
Non Rush Hours K-WTC to Queens via 6th Ave-63rd St Tunnel to Forest Hills
"How about The Express F start at Coney Island and the Local at Kings Hwy during Rush Hrs. The G to Church Ave the way they did it back in the 70s Run the Locals then as the K F-RUSH HOURS CONEY ISLAND-179th EXP in BKLYN and QUEENS LCL MANHATTEN OFF HOURS same as now. K-RUSH HOURS LOCAL KINGS HWY-Anywhere in Queens via 63rd St tunnel
Non Rush Hours K-WTC to Queens via 6th Ave-63rd St Tunnel to Forest Hills"
This is the best idea I see so far. Why don't they reinstitute this plan? G to Church Avenue (Local), K (F) to Kings Hwy (Local) and F express to Coney Island.
N Broadway Local
Been done. People who used local stops norht of Church whined about losing half of their Manhattan bound service.
Restoration of express service means another line to go local is a must.
"Make your point as to why the G line is useless. Is it useless because of shortened trains or OPTO? Is it because of the
placement of its off hour terminal at Court Square? I fail to understand why an existing line can't be improved. It takes time and
money of which the NYCTA has proven laziness when it comes to certain areas of the city. Has the MTA board based it's
decision on the fact that since Greenpoint, Crown Heights and other areas have settled for lousy service, then points south of
Red Hook and Prospect Park can too? What is going on in your neighborhood community board meetings? Have you been
complaining to them about the forgotten promises that turned to an April Fool's joke?"
Complaint here won't help.
Thanks Harry
N Broadway Line
Crown Heights? The G does not go through Crown Heights. The only lines that go through Crown Heights are the 2,3,4,5, and S.
3TM
Ahhh!!! But what if those riders are going to Greenpoint?
Who goes to Greenpoint?
LOL.
If you want to get the ferry at Orient Point you have to go to Greenport!!!!
OOPS!!!
The G is unacceptable as the only local train on the Culver line. It's been tried before, and residential pressure killed it. If express service was ever to be restored, another line into Manhattan would have to be created.
I actually saw a flyer from the TA about the restoration of F Culver Express service in 1994. The proposal was to have F trains from Coney Island run express peak direction between Kings Highway and Church Avenue then both directions from Church to Bergen Street. G trains would operate local from Church. They also proposed operating rush hour F local trains from Kings Highway that would have supplemented the G. Whether that would have been sufficient is anyone's guess, because nothing has come of this proposal in the last five years. The V might be a better choice because it's possible that it would operate more frequently and at more times than a rush hour F local from Kings Highway.
We've been talking about two possible 6th Avenue services for the V train:
A) Running it in place of the F on the Culver Line local stops so the F can run express, and
B) Making it the reincarnation of the old KK 6th Avenue-Williamsburg Bridge service.
Which do you think is the more useful service?
The switch south of Kings Highway that would have allowed Manhattan-bound trains to switch from local to express before entering Kings Highway is no longer there.
--Mark
The switch south of Kings Highway that would have allowed Manhattan-bound trains to switch from local to express before entering Kings Highway is no longer there.
That was dumb. Why did they take that switch out? Didn't they ever stop to think maybe they would need to use it again?
Isn t there a switch after (north) anyway during Rush Hours I ve seen trains deadhead from CI Yards across Ave X to Kings Hwy. So in AM they are deadheaded in from CI, and PMs Deadheaded out
Running F expresses, and locals from Kings Highway, would not be fair.
At least if the local started at Church, you could say to those further in (who account for half the riders) that while you may wait longer for a train, it will leave Church empty, so you won't be crowded.
If the local starts at Kings Highway, since some people will stay on it, trains at Propsect Park would be both less frequent AND more crowded than today for those at Prospect Park. That is just not fair.
The minimum standard for fairness, in my view, is eight local F (or V) trains and six G trains starting from Church. The southern end of the line could get eight trains local from Stillwell to Church, then express from Church to Jay.
To do that you need a some more cars and train operators. I did the calculations some time back. On the other hand, RTO personnel would gain a better terminal, and would not have to cross the tracks at 4th Avenue. If the G is going OPTO, that's the least they can do for the T/Os.
Cut the G to 4 cars instead of 6.
N Broadway Line
I don't think that the R46 cars on the G line are configured in the normal 4 car sets that the rest are. Reducing the G to 4 cars would leave a handful of R46 cars uncoupled and useless. Might as well leave it at 6.
They're 4 and 2. So you'd have a bunch of 2 car A-A units, and these can be made into 4, 6 or 8 car trains.
"The switch south of Kings Highway that would have allowed Manhattan-bound trains to switch from local to express before
entering Kings Highway is no longer there."
Build a new one.
N bwy line
The KK has been tried and it has failed. I'd send any new 6th. Ave. route down to Church to restore express service on the F.
Then on weekends, send it to the eastern div. That's when we need it the most.
Hi
I just came back from Yonkers. Indeed there are a few R142's visible from the street. They are parked outside between the parking lot and Metro North tracks.
As I took a couple of pictures, I noticed that the trains have spots of red on them. The area where the headlights are located are painted a dark red/burgundy - similar to the Redbird color. And I maybe mistaken, but it looks like the cars have a red/burgundy stripe that runs in a faded pattern alongside the car body. The number of the car was in the 7000 range - 7211 if I remember correctly. I had to go about my business rather quickly because there were a few Yonkers police cars parked there and I could feel their stares as I took a couple of pictures.
I had to go about my business rather quickly because there were a few Yonkers police cars parked there and I could feel their stares as I took a couple of pictures.
Just tell them that you're with the Transit Authority and that you're taking photos for the next edition of Transit Transit. On a more serious note, what is their problem? You were just taking pictures. Its not as if you were vandalizing or sabatoging the cars. It sounds like what the KGB would have done seeing railfans photographing in Moscow during the Soviet era.
Just wanted to clarify the number on the car I saw. It was 7251.
Also, the signage on the train appears to be the same as that seen on the R110. In fact, the car body - of what can be seen - is very similar to the R110.
Thanks.
The quality of "discourse" on this site has taken a beating. As much as I have enjoyed SubTalk, I'm giving it a rest until some semblance of intelligence returns.
George, don't let the ramblings of one "bad apple" discourage you from participating in this excellent forum. Hopefully, if we ignore it, it will go away. Subtalk has gone through some similar episodes in the past and I'm sure we'll get back to normalcy soon.
Hopefully, ignoring that one "bad apple" WILL give it the hint that it is not wanted around here.
Only problem is, notice how that one certain problem always posts every rant THREE times?
Geez, I wish this board had a killfile. That person would definitely be the first entry. (And because the words used in their "handle" are quite unique, it wouldn't be hard to killfile him at all....)
Emotions allways run high at contract time and it came down to the wire.
Things should settle down a bit soon. If someone bug you dont read their posts and dont answer them
If you have something of interest to you put it out there. and if some one does not agree with you its a free country and they are entitled to be wrong if they like
Happy Holidays to all
As Noah said to the Lord RIGHT As least Cosby always has the right train line on his shows
Noah also wanted to know what a cubit was, IIRC.
God also asked Noah how long he could tread water.
I'm sorry you don't like my posts.
Well, I finally got to test-run my MTH R-42s (E train version) at a friends house. Absolutely flawless operation. I can see my extensive N gauge collection will get a lot less use in the near future. Now does anyone know of a 'D-train' set for sale??? Construction begins tomorrow on my own subway. I'll be looking for surplus O gauge track etc too.
Ah! I am not the only one working on a new layout.
Mine will be a represent something akin to the NY&A Rwy as
best it can be done in the confines of my apartment. The
bench work is already complete, and most of the rolling
stock is holdovers from my last layout. Scenery and track
work remain.
I chose to avoid passenger operations becuase of two main
reasons. Cost. Subway car models are prohibitively
expensive. Fun. Passenger trains move and stop. Freight
trains stop uncouple, back up and couple. It allows for
all kinds of sidings and interesting buildings that
actually perform a function on the layout. I'd rather do
that than stare at a train of $600 subway car models as it
simply goes around and around. I'd have a heart attack if
it ever fell off the table.
My Athearn locomotives are affordable and I paint them
into my own custom designs. The Road is "Hudson Terminal"
and it rosters several of it's own custom painted cars as
well. None of the rolling stock cost more than $40. So if
they fall, all that's lost is effort.
Not that that wouldn't make me cry either!
Passenger trains move and stop. Freight trains stop uncouple, back up and couple. It allows for all kinds of sidings and interesting buildings that actually perform a function on the layout.
Ahh, but think of the delays you could cause yourself running a subway layout (as I do, HO scale) and all that mixed equipment (my rolling stock is well represented with the AB standards, R1/9s, R-15s, a set of R-32s and some BART & WMATA models repainted to look like they belong in NYC). All I need is the snap, crackle and pop of a radio at command center to get all that realism ...
--Mark
Ahh, but think of the delays you could cause yourself running a subway layout (as I do, HO scale) and all that mixed equipment (my rolling stock is well represented with the AB standards, R1/9s, R-15s, a set of R-32s and some BART & WMATA models repainted to look like they belong in NYC). All I need is the snap, crackle and pop of a radio at command center to get all that realism ...
Get a scanner and tune it to the transit frequencies. That will add some real realism!
Actaully It's more fun to cause delays on REAL trains! HAhahahhahhahhhhhahahahaahahah!
Yeah, but I can't do that :(
--Mark
Hey, Eric! Good luck with your layout.
BTW, if you were to model the South Brooklyn Railway you could do freight along with subway cars on one layout. It might be something to consider, huh?
Doug aka BMTman
Douggie; yeah but a dense city scape is very tedious to model. I'll stick to suburbia.
Good point. BTW, when you do the detailing on your NY&A layout don't forget to make the tracks look like s--t and add some miniature homeless shanty towns. Gotta love that realistic look! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
That I will do. Along with poorly maintained locomotives and a group of thieves for the box cars headed to Gallo wine in Syosset.
GREAT!!! That news has given me a warm feeling inside.
LOL!!
I can hardly wait to see your finished layout....
Till then,
Doug aka BMTman
Also, the SBK wouldn't be complete without a working Culver Shuttle. You would need to weather that too.
From
Keep your eye on eBay and search MTH or NYC subway! A good friend bought the D train off eBay about six weeks ago, and is very pleased with it, You will probably have to pay more since it is a year old and you will be dealing on the secondary market.
You might want to buy the D train 2-car add-on which just came out this year and might still be available at some big MTH dealers. Then, when you get the original 4-car set you will be all set to run a six car train.
They are both nice sets but I think that the blue stripe on the D train just sets it off a little more.
Good luck!
Steve, I forgot to mention earlier that the "D" train version of the MTH subway sets are difficult to find (You may be able to locate a set at train swap-meets/shows or for sale on the web at ebay.com).
Here's what MTH did: In 1998 they introduced the NYC Subway car sets in the original R-42/TA color scheme (blue stripe and old "M" logo). The set was offered in three (3) versions (1) Four car set -- one powered lead-car and three trailers (with "Proto-sounds", a system realisticaly reproducing subway car acceleration and braking noises as the train is run); (2) same as set (1) except w/o "Proto-sounds" making them approximately $100 cheaper; (3) The popular 2-car Add-on set (these came in handy for those who wanted to run a realistic 8-10 car train and also for subway buffs w/o layouts who only needed static desk display models -- like yours truly).
Pricing was roughly: Set (1): $399/Set (2): $299/Set (3): $85
What MTH did this year was a little disappointing to many subway fans: they offered the R-42's in the current/rebuild design with the newer "MTA" logo and made the trains marked as the "E" Line. They would have done better by marking them as the "J" or "L" as the R-42's do most of their duties on the Eastern Division. I guess they were going by the logical alphabetical order (i.e., E after D).
They did however hold over the previous year's "D" train Add-on sets as they realized that owners of their original sets may want additional cars in the old color scheme to make longer consists.
Good luck in getting hold of the "D" train set (Keep us posted).
Doug aka BMTman
I was just wondering as I continue to plan my trip to NYC in the Spring of 2000 about Belmont Park & The LIRR.
First and most important, is Belmont Park in a safe area and is taking the LIRR there safe?? I would assume so just because of the distance from the city to the park.
Second, the schedule lists that you have to change at Jamaica, but not next to the Jamaica times, but the three stations before it. That seems kind weird! Is it just saying to continue you must change?
Anyway, I just thought it might be a neat day trip if time allows and I have heard of the Belmont Stakes which seem to be pretty neat.
BJ
Ask Sgt Jeff Rosen, that is his 3rd home after house and work?
>First and most important, is Belmont Park in a safe area and is
>taking the LIRR there safe?? I would assume so just because of the
>distance from the city to the park.
There is no problem, safety-wise, taking the LIRR to Belmont. The Belmont Park station has no access to/from the surrounding neighborhood (which are not bad, anyway); there is only access to/from the Grandstand.
>Second, the schedule lists that you have to change at Jamaica, but
>not next to the Jamaica times, but the three stations before it.
>That seems kind weird! Is it just saying to continue you must
>change?
I assume you are looking at the "J" next to Penn Station, Woodside, Forest Hills, and Kew Gardens (if you're coming from Manhattan - Flatbush Ave., Nostrand Ave. and East NY if you're coming from Brooklyn). All this means is that passengers to/from those stations must "Change at Jamaica" for their final destination.
"The horses are at the gate...the flag is up...and they're off!! Time of the first quarter is 22 and 2, a torrid pace! On the backstretch, Chewing Gum is sticking to the rail. At the sixteenth pole, it's Cabbage, by a head. And the winner is...???"
>>>"The horses are at the gate...the flag is up...and they're off!! Time of the first quarter is 22 and 2, a
torrid pace! On the backstretch, Chewing Gum is sticking to the rail. At the sixteenth pole, it's
Cabbage, by a head. And the winner is...???" <<<
Beetlebomb?
Hey Sgt Jeff, how much have you won on Beetlebomb at Belmont?
It's Rhinoplasty, by a nose! :o>
wayne
If you're a big racing fan the Belmont Stakes would be a good day, but if you're not I'd say go on a day where its not so crowded so you can enjoy yourself.
By the way, the N6 from Jamaica goes right past Belmont.
They have a Saturday (Sunday ?) AM breakfast thing that's real nice. After walk around the grounds & wait for the race. Call them about it.
Mr t__:^)
Unfortunately the Belmont Special doesn't go there that early and the original poster wanted to take the LIRR there. Although I haven't been to Breakfast at Belmont in 20 years it was really great for both the racing fans to get behind the scenes watching workouts and meeting personalities of the sport and it was great for the kids with the barn tours. Maybe the poster could take the "F" to 179 and then the N6 right to the track that early. (However he was concerned about the neighborhoods)
Jeff, Good points. Thanks for clarifying my comments.
Mr t__:^)
Hi folks,
Am going up to New York this coming Wednesday for Christmas, and was wondering if a NYCT allows pictures to be taken underground. Other cities do, but without a flash of course. Do you need a permit? If so, where do i get it? I remember there being some discussion about this topic quite a while ago.
Also, any tips? and is it possible to get into the yards?
Anything interesting happening on the Subway gonna happen while im there? Some threads say R-142 arriving this weekend, uh, were will they be?
Thanks!
-Crazy
Check out http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/photography.html for the regs concerning taking pictures in the Subway
Be careful not to take pictures where you might run into Mayor Rudy. He gets REALLY steamed when his picture is taken without written permission. He is apt to have you arrested on the spot, camera confiscated, and thrown in a cell at Central Booking with a big dude named Bubba.
Just kidding ;-)
Have fun taking pictures on the NYCT system. Just be mindful of station booth attendants who take offense to being a part of your photographic scenery.
Doug aka BMTman
"Thrown into a cell with a big dud named Bubba." No kidding, I didn't know Bill Clinton worked at Central Booking.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One tip I WILL post here (the FAQ mentioned in message 77094 spells it all out) is to NEVER fire a flash into the face of a train operator. You can take front-end pictures nicely outdoors, just don't use a flash. Take pictures of stations, walls, tiles, whatever else strikes your fancy, just don't flash at the train operator.
Wayne
I've been riding the trains so long I think several lines have come to have their own personalities.
Not the C, though. It never has trackage of its own. It buddies up with the A for most of its run, then allies itself with the D in the Bronx. Like Sancho Panza or Baba Louie, it's the ultimate sidekick of the MTA.
The E is in a similar situation: though it only has one stop (Jamaica-Van Wyck) to itself, it proclaims its IND allegiance by running with the B and D at Rockefeller Center, with the A in Midtown, and with the F/G in Queens. As Bella Abzug was or James Carville is the ultimate Democrat, the E is the ultimate IND. (It does hang out with the BMT J/Z but thinks better of it after two stops).
The F and G are closely associated because of their lengthy Queens Blvd partnership, but each has a lengthy run of its own. The F seems to have a schizo personality: BMT in Brooklyn, IND in Manhattan and Queens. The D, running on an embankment in most of its Brooklyn run, becomes its own man there, but in Manhattan and the Bronx, it's IND through and through.
To me it has always been strange to see the R hanging out with the G in Queens. The R will always be strictly BMT, brother of the M and N in my opinion, and seems out of place in its Queens run with the INDs.
The 7 has always been the lone wolf of the MTA, sharing its tracks with no one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I always felt the 1/9 above had type of personality to it. It almost seems like the big brother of the 2/3 in Manhattan. Although it runs local I feel it's one of the "cooler" lines for it's run in Manhattan.
>>>Although it runs local I feel it's one of the "cooler" lines for it's run in Manhattan. <<<
The 1/9 have most of the older stations in the MTA, above 42nd Street. So that adds to its ambience. Likewise for the #6 between the old City Hall station and 42nd St.
www.forgotten-ny.com
How about the D and Q on the Brighton, N & R
True. I left the Q out of it, since I rarely find myself on one. Pretty much hangs out with the D these days since the N and R threw it out in 1990...
"Not the C, though. It never has trackage of its own. It buddies up with the A for most of its run, then allies itself with the D in the Bronx."
The C doesn't go to the Bronx anymore. In fact, it's together with the A the ENTIRE ROUTE for Euclid to 168th. It might as well be called the A LOCAL or AA if you will.
Well, that's what I get for using a 1994 map. I shudda remembered the B replaced it in the Bronx a few years ago. So it's more than ever the A alter ego.
Since there is talk of adding a V train on 6th Avenue when /if the south side of the Manhattan Bridge opens, my question is, when was the LAST time they added a new letter?
Excepting, of course, the Z, the twin brother of the J.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you count numbers, the 9 didn't appear until August 89.
The "K" replacement for the "AA" in 1983, perhaps?
--Mark
>>>The "K" replacement for the "AA" in 1983, perhaps? <<
But, K was used for another line before that as in the KK from Canarsie to Jamaica? I mean a completely new letter...
Strangely, T has apparently been retired; I hear no mention of it being considered for any new service...
Why not count Z?
Except for Z, I can't think of any new letter has been assigned since letters were extended to the BMT starting in 1960. All letters through T when then given assignments except "I" "O" and "P".
I would expect "T" is being reserved in case they decide to run a West End service via Broadway or to Nassau Street but not out on the Eastern Division. Both current West End services are theoretically extensions of other services which have first rights to their letters, B and M.
I'm in agreeement with Paul Matus on the last letter assigned: It's literally the last letter itself,
Z
Before that, the last letter to debut was K
Wayne
The K was used from 72-76, so the 8th Ave K line wasn't a new letter.
My reference was to the "K" which replaced the "KK". "KK" had been assigned for some time but never used (replacing the #14).
Wayne
Wayne is right about K being the last new letter to come into use.
Prior to the opening of the Chrystie Street Line the following letters had all seen some used.
IND A,AA,BB,C,CC,D,DD,E,EE,F,GG,HH,S
BMT M,N,Q,QB,QT,RR,S,T,TT
On Sunday,November 26,1967 the JJ,LL,MJ,and SS came into use.
On Monday,November 27,1967 the NX,QJ and RJ debuted.
With the Sixth Avenue Extension to 57 Street on July 1,1968 the KK made its debut and lasted until December 29,1972. Starting on January 2,1973 it was shortened to K.
Larry,RedbirdR33
With the Sixth Avenue Extension to 57 Street on July 1,1968 the KK made its debut and lasted until December 29,1972. Starting on January 2,1973 it was shortened to K.
I've always wondered about this single-station extension. Was built for the purpose of later linking up with the 63rd Street tunnel? If so, why open a one-stop extension well before the tunnel itself was open? Is there THAT much traffic at 6th & 57th? Or does it offer a layup location that wasn't there before?
Whether or not they anticipated the 63rd Street tunnel or other northern/eastern extension (planned extensions have a habit of never being built in NYC) the one-station 6th Avenue Line extention to 57th Street mimics the old 6th Ave. el which had a one station spur to 58th Street while the main part of the line turned west to 9th Avenue.
The sixth ave extension was always supposed to go through the
63rd st tunnel. However, due the the city's fiscal crises in
the early 70's the new routes program was drastically scaled back.
The 57th street station was opened well before the tunnel was due
to it being in midtown manhattan. The rest of the line was opened
only after the bad press of the flooded tunnel. The feds forced the
transit authority to open the tunnel or repay the federal dollars
that were used to construct it, and the Archer Ave subway as well.
Regardless of the 63rd Street tunnel, a route other than to 53rd Street East or West was needed by 6th Avenue trains once Chrystie Street and the express track between West 4th and 34th Street were finished. Assuming full capacity of two lines on each of the local and express tracks, totaling 4 lines, the previous layout afforded capacity only for 3 of the 4 lines: 2 could go west to the 8th Avenue line and 1 could go east to Queens. Hence, 57th Street-6th Avenue was needed for that 4th line.
The 57th St station was originally part of the IND second system. The line was supposed to go north to 57th St. (the tracks leading to 57th St. were built into the 6th Ave line originally) then turn east on 61st and connect to the never built 2nd Ave. IND line. It would have then run up into the Bronx.
The 57th St station was originally part of the IND second system. The line was supposed to go north to 57th St. (the tracks leading to 57th St. were built into the 6th Ave line originally) then turn east on 61st and connect to the never built 2nd Ave. IND line. It would have then run up into the Bronx.
So the actual station was constructed in anticipation of the 63rd Street tunnel, but the tracks leading up to it had been there all along, eh?
How much work had to be done to build the station? Were the tracks separated to accommodate platforms when built, or did a station have to be built from scratch including changing track location?
In any event, seems like the 2nd System idea has mutated: If I read it right, the "stubway" if built will run into BMT express lines while the Queens Blvd. Connector feeds into Sixth Avenue instead. Hey, adaptability is everything.
[So the actual station was constructed in anticipation of the 63rd Street tunnel, but the tracks leading
up to it had been there all along, eh?]
No, most of the tracks to 57th St. were not there all along. If anything was there, it is just the switches which dead-ended immediately. This kind of provision for expansion was common on the IND.
[In any event, seems like the 2nd System idea has mutated: If I read it right, the "stubway" if built will
run into BMT express lines while the Queens Blvd. Connector feeds into Sixth Avenue instead.
Hey, adaptability is everything.]
The way it was constructed in the 1980's makes the plan now being proposed the natural routing.
The original 2nd system plan had no trains to Queens, no 63rd. St. tunnel. The tracks would have turned north and linked with the 2nd Ave. line.
The tracks which lead to 57th St. initially ended at roughly 52nd or 53rd St., and were put in when the 6th Ave. line was originally built along with the connections north of 47-50th Sts. There is a photo in Building the Independent Subway along with a caption which mentions this. The extension to 57th St. was built by cut-and-cover.
I do not believe any trains have ever gone from Canarsie to Jamaica. The KK went from Jamaica-168 St. to 57St-6th Avenue, before the end of the Jamaica Ave. El was replaced and before the 63 St connection was connected to 57 St.
Other than Z, K was the last letter because it was added after the extra little piece of the Chrystie St. connection was completed to the Williamsburg Bridge Line, which was a couple of years after The Big Changeover (Thanksgiving Weekend, 1967--I was home from college then).
Also, not only the T and TT, but the H or HH has been retired too, apparently (formerly the Rockaway Park shuttle).
Questions, questions, questions.
I noted that the ramps at Times Square on the BMT have been removed in favor of stairs.
Seems to me that the ramps were easier to maneuver, especially if you are in a wheelchair.
What was the problem with the ramps?
I also lament the loss of the record store. Mind you I'm not a salsa fan and never bought anything there, but I thought it was so cool that there was a record store down there, especially when there was a lunch counter across the aisle.
They call those improvements?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Those ramps were far too steep for persons in wheelchairs. Elevators will be installed as part of the massive renovations of the Times Square station complex, and will be the most complex ADA station in the city.
-Hank
>>>Those ramps were far too steep for persons in wheelchairs.<<
You're right. The chairs would have descended way too fast.
<< The chairs would have descended way too fast. >>
The TA's solution to that problem: put grade timers on the ramps
"Grade timers." YES!!! Good one.
And a wheel detector or two for good measure. Hey, if they're going to overreact, go for the whole enchilada.
True, tooooo steep for wheelchairs. But, people do not tend to slow down on a ramp and cause congestion like they do on stairs. Stadiums all use ramps for their major exits for this reason. This would seem to be a step back, rather than forward.
Yeah, but stadiums have far, far longer linear (or curved) space for their ramps than the limited length of a subway platform. One of the things I always disliked about the BMT platform at Time Square was those ramps: They were five times as long as a stairway for same vertical rise, hence more congested platform with less space for PEOPLE. I'm delighted to see the stairs return.
As for those equipment closets that many of the renovated stations seem to have acquired on the platforms, however ....
The closets contain the following:
Station Scrubber(s)
Trash Room(s)
Normal and Reserve EDR Rooms
Communications Rooms (PA System and telephone equipment including AFC wiring)
Employee restroom(s) (yes the new ones are ADA compliant but some are actually up a stair!)
Employee facillity Room (locker Room- lunch area)
Cleaner's Room(s)
Field Manager's Office (also used by station supervisor)
Signal Room(s)- SOME stations
Station Storage Room(s)- Some Stations
Some stations also have other rooms and some do not have all of the above.
The problem: ADA. If they ever re-do Stillwell they will have a problem with the ramps there too (Unless they can rebuild them in a way that meets ADA.
"Unless they can rebuild them in a way that meets ADA."
There is a way, replace the ramps with escalators and build elevators for the wheelchairs.
This is Luxury Tax, the next stop will be Boardwalk
They can buid a ramp system similar to the one at 42nd ST on the 8th Ave. line.
Stilwell is ADA compliant on the B platform only NO??
That is correct. When (IF) Stillwell is renovated, I expect the D, F and N ramps to be endangered species in their present form.
The grade has to be somewhere around 3'rise:10'length, and must include rest (level) areas for every 2'-3' of rise.
-Hank
The grade has to be somewhere around 3'rise:10'length, and must include rest (level) areas for every 2'-3' of rise.
Actually I believe it's 1:10. A 30% rise is STEEP. Don't know how often there must be level rest areas, though; looks like about every 8 or 10 feet.
This afternoon, I had the honor of driving on East 241 Street. When I looked into the E.239 St yard, there was the R110B safe & warm?, at home for the holidays.
The R110B was in an IRT yard, or do you mean the R110A?
The I.R.T. verson
Do you mean the R-110A or B. I thought that the R-110A's were going to be delivered to 239th
Platform to platform, which Stations are the closest to each other on the same line? My guess is Cortelyou and Beverly on the Brighton Line.
Platform to platform, which Stations are the closest to each other on the same line? My guess is Cortelyou and Beverly on the Brighton Line.
How about 14th St. and 18th St. on the 7th Ave. IRT?
Marcy Ave. and Hewes St. on the B'way-B'klyn El.
First and Third Aves. on the 14th St. Line.
Unfortunately, Dean St. and Franklin Ave. no longer qualify.
Nope Beverly and Cortelyou are the closest only 700 feet apart
Yikes, that's only slightly more than one train length. Why not close both and build a new station between?
State st subway in Chicago has just one platform that runs for blocks but the train makes several stops
It's just one giant platform.
Yes, and it's the longest subway platform in the world. 3000 feet long, or thereabouts.
About Beverley & Cortelyou. I remember years ago there used to be rumors that there were these two politicians living at those stops, who caused the construction of separate stations. I don't know whether that is true or not.
Politics...that seems in my opinion to also result in the rather bizarre routes of some bus lines.
Aren't Neck Road and Ave U close too. I bet no more than 1000ft it looks like to me.
Lou, I just returned from a little surveying expedition with my bike. I have an odometer that registers to the hundredth of a mile. I measured the distance from the entrance of the Neck Road station to the entrance of the Ave U Station along the sidewalks and found the distance to be 1637 feet,give or take 10 or 20 feet. Then I went over to Beverley Road, getting a tad soaked in the rain, and measured the distance from Bev to Cortelyou to be 1267 feet give or take some.
While I was riding and getting wet, it occured to me that you could use the signal marker numbers at the end of the stations to judge distance roughly. Heading southbound Beverley Road was A1 497 and Cortelyou Road was A1 509, a difference of 12 which I think corresponds to 1200 feet. Likewise at Ave U it was A1 663 and Neck Road was A1 677 , a difference of 14 or about 1400 feet. I'm not entirely sure why I got 1637 feet compared to 1400 feet, but I have remedied the discrepancy by going back to Neck Road and renumbering the plate A1 679 to more accurately reflect reality, in which I am solidly based.
The difference could be that the station entrances are not aligned with the beginning and ends of the platforms (i.e. at one station the entrance is towards the front of the train, at the next the entrance is towards the rear).
Or were you riding your bike along the tracks?
Chuck
I'd vote for the 2nd option. Knowing Heypaul he removed the rubber from his wheels on his bike, placed it on the running rails and off he went. Too bad he didn't go through the Brighton Beach interlocking around that curve into the station....
He was probably playing his CC tape all along, or at least making "tchh-hsssss" sounds where appropriate.
With the bike, I went on the street from station entrance to station entrance, which as far as the rider goes is a good measure of the distance between the stations.
I don't think the markers are to the exact foot, probably to the nearest hundred feet. The station entrance may be at different positions on each platform.
I would have taken my bike onto the tracks, but I left my third rail pick-up shoe adapters home. If you think the R40 slants were fast when they were rebuilt, you should see me on the bike with 600 volts DC and unlimited amperage juicing me up. I imagine some people here might enjoy seeing me wired up to the third rail.
Hey Paul
Your dedication is awsome Thanks for the info.
Joe
Now you gotta take your bike to Nassau and check out Sea Cliff-Glen St-Glen Cove.
How about all those stations from Bowling Green North on the 4-5 Lines they are quite close. Or Bay Pkwy-20th Ave B and N Lines Ave H & J Brighton. And in Chicago, I remember walking from one station to another on a long platform on the Subway downtown. Also W 8-Stillwell, and W 8-Neptune on F
Sarge, with your help I have solved the problem of what happened to the strawberries? With the help of ward room closed circuit cameras, we have shown it was Eugenius who had 8 servings of strawberries instead of the 2 that he claimed when asked. Likewise, I have the proof that he alone engineered the elimination of the railfan window and may even be involved in the disappearance of the railfan window photographer. Now that those mysteries are solved, I can turn the full powers of geometric logic to determining distances between train stations.
Before I use the bike to measure station entrance to station entrance distances, I would need to hear from concerned people that this distance is a valid measure of the distances between stations.
It would be very easy to use the signal markers to determine which stations are closest using track distances as the measure. I suspect that most people here would favor actual rail distance as the measure, since few here are concerned with the plight of the average customer.
Get Survey Equipment
There are two in my book;
1- Ave N and Ave P on the F- with extra exits there are four entrances in four blocks!
2-18th ave 20th ave and Bay Pwky(22 ave)on the N- six entrances in six blocks.
On the 6th Ave IND, there is one entrance between 47th & 46th Streets, and the northernmost entrance to the 42nd St. station is between 42nd & 43rd. About the same distance.
How about Chambers Street and Park Place on the 7Av. It seems like once you go around the curve leaving Chambers you're at Park Pl.
In the rear car of the R-110A, the computer already announces, "This is Park Place" while you are still in Chambers Street.
This is Park Place, the next stop will be Luxury Tax.
Cortlandt and Rector on the Broadway BMT? 23rd and 28th on the same line?
Seneca and Forest on the M line are quite close.
The platforms at 238 and 242 on the #1 seem very close, although the station entrances are quite a bit further apart.
Chuck
46th Street-Bliss and 52nd Street-Lincoln on the #7 line are close together, there is a curve between the two. Atlantic Avenue and Broadway Junction on the "L" are close together, so are Rockaway Parkway and East 105th Street, so are Montrose Avenue and Grand Street.
Wayne
And for that matter- Broadway Junction and Bushwick-Aberdeen. Odd thing there is one is high atop the elevated, then the other is underground. Still, they're within shouting distance of each other.
On ther IND there is 81 and 86 on central Park West.
I was thinking about 23rd and 28th in my post about the IRT lines. However...since B'way cuts across the numbered streets diagonally at that point, the distance between stations is greater than on the avenues, and therefore the extra station MAY be needed.
Cortlandt and Rector on the Broadway BMT? 23rd and 28th on the same line? Wall and Fulton on the Lex IRT?
Fulton to Bowling Green is a hop, skip and......
If you wanna split hairs, the Crescent St/Cypress Hills stations are less than a block apart, vertically. Horizontally, they're about 4 blocks apart.
Have you ever tried walking those "four" blocks?
On the El Eye Double Are, I've vote for Sea Cliff, Glen Cove and Glen Street... the old lady diesels don't even get up to huff-puff-notch-three!
I think someone once posted the closest stations on the LIRR are Centre Avenue, East Rockaway and Oceanside on the Long Beach branch. The distance from Centre Avenue to Oceanside is only 1.1 miles -- with the East Rock station in between. The distances are 0.5 and 0.6 miles but I'm not sure which distance applies to which pair of stations.
(As a teenage runner, I could race trains on foot from Oceanside to East Rock -- leave Oceanside when the train opened its doors and see if I could get on the platform at East Rock before it opened its doors there. As I got older and faster, the game became too easy.)
It's my understanding that there were actually two stations in between Centre Ave and Oceanside until about 1950.
I think the Sea Cliff / Glen St. / Glen Cove was a close second.
Chuck
How about Garden City and Country Life Press?? I still think Chambers St and Park Pl on the 7Av train are the closest. (BTW, I started that thread a few mos. ago about the LIRR's Sea Cliff, Glen St, and Glen Cove Stations)
Garden City / Country life press / Hempstead could very well be it, the train's barely out of one when it hits the next!!!
Sea Cliff to Glen Street? I used to be able to watch the train enter seac cliff, pedal my 21 speed down the hill, over to Glen Street, and watch it leave Glen Street. Fun stuff....
How about 28th-33rd on the IRT
That is one thing that has always intrigued me about the IRT lines. They closed 18th-Lex because it was too close to the longer 14th St. Why not also shut down 18th-7 av?
Or 28th-Lex for that matter? I see no real reason to have subway stations 4-5 blocks apart. Do IRT local T/Os get annoyed making these "odd" stops?
That is one thing that has always intrigued me about the IRT lines. They closed 18th-Lex because it was too close to the longer 14th St. Why not also shut down 18th-7 av?
Because the north-south alignments of the two lines are not equivalent.
The "14th Street" platforms on the 7th Ave. IRT line actually run from south of 14th down to 12th, and the "18th St. platforms" from just south of 18th to north of 19th ... so they're about 5 blocks apart. OTOH, the Lex line 14 St/Union Sq platforms run north of 15th, so the 18th St station is considerably closer.
That said, I'm a bit surprised that 18th and 28th on the 7th Ave line and 28th on the Lex didn't get eliminated during the austere period. Now I bet it'd be way too difficult. Luckily I live by the 23rd Street station!
Well being Mostly a IRT Local Motorman Working mainly the No.1 and No.6 Lines It really doesn't make much diffrents. But there is not much of a need for a 18 Street its mostly a light station. If you see a crowd a 18 Street you know your running late. Other station mainly on the No.1 Line which are close is Canal Street to Frankln Street. Very short. Frankin Street is only busy during Rush Hours. Weekends its just plain useless.
Also on the 2 and 5 Lines you got the rebuilt Intervale Ave right next to Simpson Street. Intervale is mainly other light stop. Maybe only 5 people at a time waiting for a train unless you late or have a gap in service.
Also on the 2 and 5 Lines you got the rebuilt Intervale Ave right next to Simpson Street. Intervale is mainly other light stop. Maybe only 5 people at a time waiting for a train unless you late or have a gap in service.
Which, IIRC, was why the TA wanted to close Intervale permanently after it was shut down for fire damage in the early Nineties, right? I think they caved in to community pressure and rebuilt it. (I also seem to recall a hullaballoo about the costs and elapsed time, with Donald Trump saying that they could give him less money and he'd have it open within six months.)
But I have to think the TA keeps usage statistics on how many fares each station generates daily and on weekends. Might be a good exercise to publish it, just so neighbors know. A minimum number of fares generated isn't all THAT bad an idea to support a station ....
"But I have to think the TA keeps usage statistics on how many fares each station generates daily and on weekends. Might be a good exercise to publish it, just so neighbors know. A minimum number of fares generated isn't all THAT bad an idea to support a station .... "
I'd love to see the ridership by station stats for the Subway, LIRR, Metro North, NJT but I haven't seen them published anywhere.
Anyone have ideas as to where I could look or who I could bother? I'm pretty good at being an annoying nuisance and if I need help I guess I could enlist the services of heypaul.
Chuck
Now with Metrocards and the new turnstiles, I would imagine that station ridership must be on the computer. As a start, drop subway-buff@mindspring.com an e-mail, as that person is a station agent and might be able to direct you to a phone number where it will only take 30 calls instead of the normal 48 calls to get information.
Or if you like to do things yourself, take about 5 stations a day. Go with a pad and paper, and at the same time copy down the figures on the counters on the turnstiles. I think there are figures on the new turnstiles. If you like irritating people and being subject to verbal and physical abuse, make sure you do this during rush hour, so that people will trip over you and trample you as you are recording ridership figures. If you are more the sensitive type, carry a roll of yellow tape marked POLICE CRIME SCENE-- KEEP BACK and seal off the entrance to the station, so that you can record your figures comfortably. I'm sure the station agent will be happy to assist you, as he/she would be able to take a break while the masses are held up behind the yellow tape. If you follow this advice, I will assume no responsibility for what happens to you.
They should publish that. When I visited the SEPTA Store I was able to buy the a Book for $10 that gives me the amount of Ridership that are at each stop at diffent Hours of the Market Street Elevated Line for the years of 1991 to 1992.
Also how many people got on and off trains at all the stops at all hours of operation.
Ex. at 56 Street Eastbound from 5:20 AM 21 riders boarded and 1 rider got off.
In Center City, Philadelphia, SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line stations
are extremely close together...2nd St., 5th St., 8th St., 11th St.,
13th St., and 15th St.. The longest distance between stations on that
line is between 15th St. and 30th St.
Yes, they're quite close. In fact, you can yell at someone in 15th Street from the extreme western end of 13th Street and they'd probably hear you if there were no trains.
The 15th-30th is my favorite stretch. I prefered it with the Almond Joys(having the opening railfan window is something I will miss).
The M-4's get pretty good acceleration, bu Almond Joys they are not.
The Almond Joys were the best. SEPTA is rebuilding a few for wrk service. I dont know if that means cab signalling though..They had the stainless steel fluiting torn off at 69th street shops so they can rewire them and so forth. Yippy
Dozens of them are still sitting at 69th Street Yard where the 65/105/106 buses leave the terminal.
I really wish I had gone on that ERA Fan trip back in June. I haven't been on an Almond Joy since May.
Dozens of them are still sitting at 69th Street Yard where the 65/105/106 buses leave the terminal.
I really wish I had gone on that ERA Fan trip back in June. I haven't been on an Almond Joy since May.
Hey, I haven't been on an Almond Joy since 1978.
From
I have heard that there are still some at Frankford yard also, but these are probably awaiting transport to the junkyard.
The acceleration of the M4s is annoying. It makes it hard to stand.
On that matter, it seemed that at first, the M4s were slower that the almond joys, but now it does not seem so. And besides, will the ATP actually make the line faster?
And besides, will the ATP actually make the line faster?
I imagine on parts of it, yes. For example, on the downslopes into the tunnel under the Schuylkill, the timed signals are set awfully conservatively, IMHO. There are also parts of east El where the timed signals are set very slow.
I imagine they will have the opportunity to speed that up with cab signalling. Whether they will or not is another issue...
Really close - really really really really close. There's a concourse
that goes from 8th to around 17th, so if you want, a good deal of
that can be walked underground.
But you'd be hard pressed to close any of the stations -
15th - well, it's 15th. Last stop before the express run, and site
of sububan station (well, a block or so west underground) and many
many many big office buildings. (Ok, mine included)
13th - Septa hq - forget it
11th - Market east station
(oooh, look out, from here we've got a massive 3 BLOCKS between stations!)
8th - The Gallery, Ridge Avenue Spur, Patco
5th - Independence Hall (check out the PCC's in the wall murals)
2nd - Penn's landing, last stop before the line turns north
Hmmm - maybe they should bring back trolley service to market street
and have the train go express from Spring Garden to 30th :)
SEPTA attempted to correct the closeness of the stops in the early 70's when the 1234 Market building was under construction (its current HQ). The EB platform is very long and there was talk of moving the entire station eastward, more toward 12th St and closer to Reading Terminal. The WB platform was never extended, however, and the result is still in place today. The escalators that go from the basement level of 1234 down beneath the el tracks were supposed to go with this platform relocation. The escalators have never moved nor carried patrons, to the best of my knowledge.
Some of you may recall that 11th St remained unrehabbed for a LONG time during this period (at the same time that other stops were being rebuilt). The reason was that it would have been abandoned if the 13th relocation scheme had gone through. It didn't and 11th got a facelift in the early 80's when the Gallery 2 came along. Despite its new look, it still is home to a large number of rats who often scurry up and down the column sheathing and through the false ceilings.
The reason that 13th and 15th are so close is that the el, as originally built, curved around the City Hall foundations, following roughly the same tunnel now used by the subway-surface cars entering and leaving the Juniper terminal (the EB trolleys actually use part of the old el alignment - there is space on the right of the cars which was the old sub-surface trackbed). When the tunnel was built straight through in the mid-1930's the curved segments were abandoned and the trip cut from 3-4 minutes (through curves that must have been awfully noisy) to less than 1 minute.
Also, keep in mind that the distance between 15th and 30th is not quite 15 blocks, or 1.5 miles in Phila distance. The last numbered street on the east side of the Schuylkill River at Market St is 23rd (24th does not cross Market but starts about 1/2 block south and passes beneath both Chestnut and Walnut). The first street west of the river is Schuylkill Ave, also known as 29th St. Accounting for the distances between 23rd St and the river and the width of the river itself, this probably adds up to about 2 blocks. Thus, the real distance is about 1.2 miles. Many people in Phila would probably think that the distance between 2nd and Spring Garden is longer, but this only seems that way since the trains travel more slowly in this stretch than in the straightaway between 15th and 30th.
They are not that close together. In NYC, there are 20 blocks to a mile, so many stations are 1/4 mile apart. In Philadelphia, there are 10 blocks to a mile, so the closest center city stations are 1/5 mile apart (11, 13, 15) and 3/10 of a mile between 2,5,8,11 and 19,22. 15-19 are 4/10 of a mile. (I know the MFSE skips 19 and 22, but those subway-surface stops are local stops for many people who connect to the MFSE at 15 or 30.) Not too different from NYC as it turns out.
Also how far apart do you think the stations in the Financial District are?? Not very, I'll bet. And Center City stops in Philadelphia are used by the equivalent of NYC's Midtown and Lower Manhattan commuters.
Center-city Philly is not that big. On the MFL, the business district is only 15 blocks or so. Most business commuters travel from the outskirts to those several downtown stations, so having them close together makes sense.
Philadelphia's center city is 22 x 6 1/10 mile-long blocks or about 2.2 miles x .6 miles. That's about from 23rd to 59th by 5th to 8th Avenue in Manhattan. It is not as densely filled with tall buildings, of course.
QUESTION also you can answer to my e mail
HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE ?? the A train starting from 207 th street
UPTOWN MAHATTAN ( then ) all the way past the GRANT STATION
and then across BROAD CHANNEL and then finally arrive at
THE FAR ROCKWAY STATION !!!!!
now anybody timed this?? aprox. how long does this take ???
this question does not involve transfering to some ""S""
train ( BUT ) the train that goes all the way until far rockway
HOW MUCH TIME DOES THIS TAKE ??? tnank you !!
or you could respond to my e mail salaamallah@yahoo.com
Go into the MTA Web, click on Subways then click on schedules. It should be there
i would have not asked if i could get it there !!!!
NOW CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION ????? thank you !!
It will take you about 90 minutes, provided you go at a time when the A train is running express both in Manhattan and in Brooklyn.
Chuck
I believe it takes 1hour 29 minutes if it's express in Brooklyn and Manhattan, 1 hour 34 minutes if it's local in Brooklyn only, 1 hour 40 minutes if it's local the entire way.
"Pack a lunch" it may be a good idea.
I just bought a copy of the highly acclaimed (but overlooked) Harvey Keitel/William Hurt film, 'Smoke'.
There are a few scenes with the 'J' train snaking it's way through Williamsburg near the WB Plaza area. This is strange since the action in the film takes place at a cigar shop in Park Slope. The trains appear to be rebuilt R-40M or 42's and are seen at the opening and as 'filler' between different scene changes in the movie.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm told the new movie The Bone Collector has some shots of underground NYC, though I don't know if the subways are involved.
Wednesday I saw a 3 train pulling out of Penn Av. The first five cars had yellow stickerson them. Two of the car # were 1886 and 1887. The last four cars were Livonia cars. Are they transferring more cars to Livonia?
3TM
The other three cars would have to be #1888, 1889 and 1890 - all the Pelham R62A cars are linked.
I'll keep my eyes out for them next time I'm on the #3. Could be just a temporary transfer.
Wayne
do they run extra cars during the times square new year celebration ?? like rush hour ??
R142 will be delivered at Linden Yard by NY&A tomorrow afternoon & don't know how many cars will be delivered.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
R142 will be delivered at Linden Yard by NY&A tomorrow afternoon 12/20 & don't know how many cars will be delivered.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
Are you sure they're going to Linden. I heard that they would go to 239th following the Yonkers stop.
Read this nycbusnews
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
I think the 143s are coming in this way (through Linden). The R-142s are going to 239th St yard this week. The first car, 7216, is probably there right now.
--Mark
The MTA took three years to re-do the Woodside LIRR station, and compared to the nice work they seem to be doing at Bayside, and the renovation at Penn, the Woodside renovation is ill-conceived and badly realized.
The problem is the exposed beams and girders in ceilings everywhere except the small area that passes for a 'waiting area'. As a result, pigeon droppings are all over the place, making what is undoubtedly a health hazard for people passing through, who have to hustle through to avoid getting splattered.
I took a picture of one of the new benches they placed inside the fare control for the #7, which is completely covered with pigeon crap. What the MTA should do is install a low ceiling and cover up the pipes and girders, depriving the feathered friends of a roosting and crapping area...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Riding Metro North upstate today, I noticed that there's a large blue sign for north-bound marine (and train-passenger) traffic saying "Broadway Bridge, July 1, 1962" at the base of the IRT Broadway lift bridge that carries both the 1/9 trains and Broadway vehicle traffic.
Was this really only built in 1962? Was it a replacement for a similar previous bridge, or for Something Else? I had always assumed that it was built when the line was extended from 137th northward, since IIRC the Harlem River Shipping Canal that cut off Marble Hill from Manhattan was built in the late 1890s.
Anyone know?
There have been three "Broadway Bridges." The first was a single deck swing bridge built in 1895. With the impending arrival of the IRT in 1905 this bridge was replaced by a double deck swing bridge with lasted until 1960. This in turn was replaced by the current two deck lift bridge. The original bridge is still in use. It was floated downstream and is now called the University Heights Bridge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
... replaced by a double deck swing bridge with lasted until 1960. This in turn was replaced by the current two deck lift bridge. The original bridge is still in use. It was floated downstream and is now called the University Heights Bridge.
Which presumably no longer carries trains, right?
Did the IRT Broadway trains not run north of 215th from 1960 to 1962? Sounds like a MAJOR service disruption to replace such a bridge. At least on the Manhattan Bridge they're keeping some tracks open ....
The original Broadway Bridge is now the University Heights Bridge. It was never designed to carry trains which is why it had to be replaced.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"The original Broadway Bridge is now the University Heights Bridge. It was never designed to carry trains which is why it had to
be replaced."
You mean they were no trains going across the bridge before 1962?
N Broadway
I have a picture filed somewhere....If I find it, I'll post it.
-Hank
No, I think he meant to say that even though the bridge carried trains, it wasn't designed for it, even though it did carry trains.
Kinda like the Manhattan Bridge, if you ask me.
--Mark
No, no, read the explanations again. The bridge that was moved was moved around 1900, it never carried trains in either of its locations.
The one thing I am still confused about with regard to these bridges is, if the Broadway Bridge was in fact replaced in 1960, why does the sign say 1962? Is that simply a mistake?
I think I may have some clippings of newspaper articles
from the time. As well as some pictures of the old bridge
being removed, I'll see if I can find them tonight and
shead some light on how much disruption it caused...
Bill
Manhattan service ran from S.F. to W. 215 Street. Shuttle buses ran over the 207 Street bridge to W. 225 Street. There you boarded 1 of 2 trains running in the Bronx. Both on the downtown track only. One train ran, while the other sat at 242 Street, until the other returned.(Wrong railed) Major disruption? No! About 3 days in 12/61. (Christmas weekend) Trains were running across the new bridge for the next rush hour. Bridge was closed to subway traffic many weekends in the summer of 1963.
JV: The second Broadway Bridge was damaged by a fire on October 11,1956 and was replaced over the Christmas Weekend in 1960. The old bridge was floated downstream on December 24,1960 and subsequently scrapped. The new bridge was floated into place on December 26,1960. Subway service was held up for about three days. #1 trains ran between 215 St and South Ferry and a single track shuttle ran between 225 St and 242 St on the southbound track. Free transfers were issued to special shuttle buses run by Surface Transit between 207 St and 225 St via the University Heights Bridge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: Ah, OK, thanks for the info. I had misread your first response and thought it was the second bridge that was floated downstream.
So, just to clarify, the single deck swing bridge built in 1895 is now the University Heights bridge, converted from rail traffic to auto traffic. Yes?
So, just to clarify, the single deck swing bridge built in 1895 is now the University Heights bridge, converted from rail traffic to
auto traffic. Yes?
No ... now I've read your following post ... the 1895 bridge was PRE-IRT so was always for vehicle traffic. OK, now I think I've got it.
Except: Why did the University Heights bridge have to be replaced in 1960 by the 1895 one?
The present University Heights Bridge was not replaced in 1960 - the 1895 Broadway Bridge has been the University Heights Bridge since 1905. It connects Fordham Road (Bx) to 207th St (Man). It never carried rapid transit tracks - but it did carry trolley tracks until 1948 (the Third Ave. Railway 207 St. Crosstown route, later Surface Transit BX19 and today's BX12.
Oh, boy, did I misread ... so when the first Broadway Bridge was replaced in 1905 due to imminent IRT, it was floated downstream to become the University Heights bridge. The second one was damaged by fire and replaced in 1962 by the third one, then the damaged second was floated downstream and cut up.
Phew. Thanks to all. What would we do w/out SubTalk?
That is correct. The present University Heights Bridge was the first Broadway Bridge
Larry,RedbirdR33
Listening from here in Boston to WCBS Newsradio-88, I hear there is a smoke/fire condition at Penn Station in NYC, with NO SERVICE on the LIRR, AMTRAK, or NJT. Initial reports say that the signals were knocked out, and Monday AM rush hour service may be in jeopardy.
Keep tuned to WCBS, Newsradio-88 for the latest.
From a chilly Boston, that's Transit and Weather Together.
No service at all. I was susposed to be in NYC now. My train (226) was canceled shortly after my arrival at Baltimore Penn Station. I had the option to take 178 but went home to my house outside of DC and will try again tomorrow.
Trains ran to Newark where you were bused to Grand Central. It was estimated that it took an hour from arrival at Newark until arrival at Grand Central.
Take 2, tomorrow morning. I will report by Friday morning at the latest if anything happens.
Some Amtrak trains were diverted to Grand Central. It delayed my 6:37 train on the New Haven line (back to CT) for ten minutes. -Nick
Some Amtrak trains were diverted to Grand Central.
WOW! Does this mark the first time since 1990 that Amtrak inter-city (i.e. not Metro North commuter) trains have arrived at GCT?
12/19/99
I was involved in that fire fiasco. I encountered a LIRR employee at Jamaica that resembled a confusion convention. This employee told me that the cause of the fire was the main tower burning up big time. All signals from Penn to Harold were nocked out. I haven't seen the news yet which is to be on in about 8 minutes so, let's see what they say about it.
Bill Newkirk
Fire was caused by homeless individual(s) who had constructed a hut below 18 track, on the west end of the station. The fire knocked out signal power in the station only, most of the time on the west end only. For a while, LIRR was discharging at Woodside, then deadheading to Hunterspoint Av to change ends and go back east. The LIRR operation will suffer most, NJT/Amtrak less so unless C&S works some miracle tonight.
Le Banana
Where's Rudy when you need him? Now that we've had a war on the homeless (or houselessness for those Carlin fans) above ground, let's flush 'em out of the tunnels too. Nothing but trouble. ;)
Penn Station Does not belong to the City, So Rudy did nothing
[WOW! Does this mark the first time since 1990 that Amtrak inter-city (i.e. not Metro North
commuter) trains have arrived at GCT?]
No. On at least one, possibly two (or more?) occasions Amtrak trains from the Hudson (Empire Corridor) line have been diverted to Grand Central due to snow conditions on the west side tracks.
But is Nick saying that New Haven line (NE Corridor) Amtrak trains were diverted to Grand Central? That would be a first I believe.
[[WOW! Does this mark the first time since 1990 that Amtrak inter-city (i.e. not Metro North commuter) trains have arrived at GCT?]
[No. On at least one, possibly two (or more?) occasions Amtrak trains from the Hudson (Empire Corridor) line have been diverted to Grand Central due to snow conditions on the west side tracks.]
Most recently in the January 1996 blizzard.
what kind ofhead end equipment was usedon the locomotives for Amtrak Mainline to go into GCT.
Actually, I believe all NEC traffic down from Boston / Springfield was stopped at New Haven. AEM-7s can't run into GCT because there's no castenary all the way to NY on MN. AFAIK, there are no P-32s hanging out at NH (I dread the day those slow things end up in New haven -> Springfeld service...)
It was a serious Electrical Fire,,2nd Alarm
Steve
On the subway front, all northbound A,C,and E service operated via Sixth Ave from W4 St- 59St(A and C that is).E line service resumed normal operations at 5 Ave.
On my train this morning (7:05 from Ronkonkoma), the conductor announced that we might be delayed or diverted on account of the situation. Yet we arrived at Penn Station right on time. Quite a smoke smell at the platform level, that's for sure.
The Reuters report on the Penn Station fire included this little gem of journalistic accuracy:
"Amtrak and Long Island Rail Road passengers were forced to leave their trains across the East River in Jamaica in the borough of Queens."
Amtrak trains operate on Long Island and pass through Jamaica? Really not so much!!
We had a good turn-out for the field trip today. Unfortunately we were all lost in the tunnel between Sedgwick Ave. and Anderson Ave..---Okay, we weren't lost. Most of us did go into the tunnel and we all did make it back. We walked on the ballast where the eastbound track had been. The westbound tunnel was sealed. We found several wrecked autos in the ROW at the Anderson Ave.station. We were able to climb up on the platform and view what had been the station from the inside. We had viewed this station from outside on the street but could see virtually nothing.It was interesting going up and down some of the inclines, walking through a dark tunnel, and walking on the cat-walk. We also walked into Manhattan to the location of the Polo Grounds. Several of the participants were not from our posting group, but they had heard of the trip. It seems our reputation is spreading. Watch for our group photo.
HeyPaul ....
I took my ThinkPad and wireless modem on the trip, and unfortunately I have not yet made it back. I'm stuck in the sealed-up staircase along the uptown platform at Sedgwick Ave. Seems that during my exploration, I entered the staircase's crawl space, and just at that moment, a DOT truck arrived and shored up the Major Deegan Expressway above us. Seems our climbing around the station loosened up some critical support beams. Anyway, they didn't know I was in the staircase when they resealed it, so this is an SOS. If anyone gets this, please send a rescue truck to(*#()(=48984 connection breaking uIU#()&)#(&*$() I'm having troOIOEPI_))(=-3040-8(*IU*&IO
NO CARRIER
Call Edgar. (See Picture somewhere on the board.)
Hey Mark. If you're taking to comedy here on Subtalk, I feel threatened and I am inclined to leave you entombed. Get serious, I need the right setting when I post my communiques.
Hi Folks, Im told the R142/A cars are now here in New York. Does ANYONE have any pics of these cars yet? I dont mean the computerized ones either. How long till the public sees these things?
Tom,
I was about to post asking the same thing! The cars have not reached the yards yet, but are in Yonkers at the kawasaki plant. Some people have seen the cars from the highway, and have taken pictures. Hopefully they will share them with the good folks of subtalk soon **HINT HINT** :) -Nick
I sent pix to Dave. As soon as he posts them, we'll let you know.
--Mark
I was told,by someone at Jay St.,from car equiptment,the 142's arent't getting here until the end of March.
I went to Grand Central today, and to my surprise, saw 1,000 people staring at the celestial ceiling. A Holiday laser show, complete with classical music, was being displayed! Don't know if it was special just for this weekend or will run through the week; but its worht seeing, and only takes a few minutes. -Nick
I commute through Grand Central everyday and it seems that on Fridays and weekends there is a laser show going on. It's pretty funny to see all the tourists taking pics of it.
Hehehe... Unless they're using a manual exposure camera, they're not going to be catching much on film.
Today's New York Times has a somewhat depressing article (p. 44 of NYC edition National section) on the efforts of some folks in Williamsburg, MA, to block a bike path along the former New Haven & Northampton RR ROW.
Apparently there's a national clearinghouse called National Association of Reversionary Property Owners (NARPO) that helps fight rail/trail projects by arguing that RRs illegally stole the ROWs that are properly owned by adjacent landowners. They've even got an impostor domain name (www.railtrail.org) to confuse people looking for the Rails-to-Trails Conservancy (www.railtrails.org). And I gotta say, the NARPO folks sound like classic NIMBYs. And nasty ones, at that.
I mean, I can at least understand the notion of not wanting to have live train traffic on a long-disused ROW next to my house, even if I disagree with it. But bike paths? BIKE PATHS? How bad can a bike path POSSIBLY be?
Sigh.
Well, for starters, it attracts people, who could possible vandalize your property.
-Hank
Parking near access points was another NIMBY complaint used along the North County Trailway in Westchester (which got built anyway, but with one less access point). It's a marvelous trail, by the way, at least the Yorktown/Somers portion, which is the only part I've used. I suspect many of the NIMBY's who originally didn't want the trail now use it and love it.
(NIMBYs who didn't want it now use in and love it).
Notice how there is never any protest AFTER a new store opens in NYC?
Whether we agree with them or not, many of these folks have a good legal argument. Many (or their predecessors) deeded land for railroad use, valid only so long as the railroad was running.
If the railroad stopped running, they get their land back (reversion).
Just because others think it would be cool to have a bicycle path doesn't change the property owners legal rights.
I have a different problem with the "rails-to-trails" movement. It pretty much makes certain rail rights-of-way can never be revived for rail use, which is some cases is the best idea.
Example: on Cape Cod, the rails have been rehabilitated as far as Dennis along the north part of the Upper (southern) Cape and to Hyannis on the south part. But beyond Dennis most of the way to Provincetown the rail line is now a bike trail. That's great, but building and year-round population on the Cape is growing. The rail alternative has been foreclosed and that will increase pressure for more highway building. If the other Old Colony Lines (like to Plymouth) had been turned to trails, the recent revival of commuter rail service wouldn't have been possible.
Example: on Cape Cod, the rails have been rehabilitated as far as Dennis along the north part of the Upper (southern) Cape and to Hyannis on the south part. But beyond Dennis most of the way to Provincetown the rail line is now a bike trail. That's great, but building and year-round population on the Cape is growing. The rail alternative has been foreclosed and that will increase pressure for more highway building. If the other Old Colony Lines (like to Plymouth) had been turned to trails, the recent revival of commuter rail service wouldn't have been possible.
If they want to turn a former RR Row into a bike path, there should be a legal clause stipulating that it revert back to a RR ROW if they want to revive the RR. Bike paths are temporary. But, if houses are built along the former RR ROW, that's permanent. That can never become a RR ROW again.
From
I also have concerns about the reuse of rail rights of way, or rights of way in general. Signing something doesn't help politically. The city signed agreements with certain individuals and groups allowing them to use vacant lots for gardens until they could be reused for housing. Guess what happened when the city tried to take the vacant lots back and auction them for housing? Private gardens for those who had grabbed them.
Giuliani would have won that battle if he had the intellegence to say "Gramercy Park" instead of "commies." But lets no talk about Rudy's second term, its too depressing.
Giuliani would have won that battle if he had the intellegence to say "Gramercy Park" instead of "commies."
Larry: I'm not a big Guiliani fan. Like the results of a few of the things he's done, think he's an odious, self-important, borderline-paranoid human being. And I can't imagine TWO less Senatorial candidates than the ones we seem to be about to choose from.
That said, are you saying that Guiliani saying "Gramercy Park" would have been more successful in rousting the Green Guerillas? Why? I happen to live on Gramercy Park, and it's ALWAYS been a private park. My understanding was that most of the green oases were open to the public? No?
Besides, I betcha Guiliani gets a lot of support -- i.e. campaign dollars -- from my neighbors. I doubt that he'd stereotype the entire neighborhood as bad, just as he wouldn't do so to Staten Island either. That privilege seems to be reserved for entire communities of people by either ethnicity or behavior. The latter may be appropriate, though the terms he uses remind me of the most punitive brothers in the most stereotypically cruel Catholic school ....
But I digress. I wish Rudy rode the subways more. There! Back on point.
Yes Gramercy Park has always been a private park. In that sense, it is less offensive than people simply seizing public land for their own private park, by going back on an understanding. But from what I understand, Gramercy Park pays no property taxes. That isn't exactly fair. And many New Yorkers feel snubbed by having a piece of green space that excludes them -- it could be taken by economic domain.
Those community gardens? Try walking up to one, saying you are a member of the community, and would like to Garden. They are little private plots, in some cases divided between individuals, in some cases operated by small cliques. They have their own little clubhouses on the sites ("Casitas in Latino neighborhoods.")
In addition to saying "Gramercy Park," the Mayor could also have exposed the charade by saying "OK, we'll have community gardens operated by the Parks Department. We'll have a waiting list, and after two years, it's someone else's turn."
There was a deal. You maintain the property, and we'll let you use it. Many people here at City Planning opposed the deal, saying the groups participating would not keep it. They swore up and down, and signed documents.
But from what I understand, Gramercy Park pays no property taxes. That isn't exactly fair.
Wrong, wrong, WRONG! The lot owners around the park are assessed an extra fee (whether by the City or the Trustees of the Park, I don't know) to cover the taxes on the land represented by the park. Even in 1831, the City made sure it got its share.
And many New Yorkers feel snubbed by having a piece of green space that excludes them -- it could be taken by economic domain.
As if NYC wasn't chock-full of places that exclude, explicitly or implicitly, various subsets of New Yorkers. NYC is a very egalitarian place in many ways, but to say that everything ought to be open to everyone at all times is ridiculous. Essentially, if I pay for it, I ought to be able to choose who uses it -- with the exception of "illegal discrimination" as it's defined by society and the courts at the time.
Minor funny story re/Gramercy Park: In the early Nineties, a neighborhood group gathered money to replace the Fifties lamp posts with "bishop's crook" cast-iron ones. City said nope, can't do it: Gramercy Park East and Gramercy Park West aren't streets. Sure, they may have cars on them, parking meters on them, and even existing streetlights, but they're not on the books therefore you can't replace the lights! Took a couple of years and about 18 inches of paperwork to get them officially made streets, a mere 160 years after they were built ....
SubTalk content re/Gramercy Park: As late as the turn of the century, the Trustees and neighbors of the park had to beat back efforts by the city to extend Lexington through the middle of the park to connect to Irving for the purposes of running a streetcar line down to 14th Street. Can anyone tell me what streetcar line that would be? I'd assume it was a Lex line (perhaps eliminated once the IRT opened?) that turned at 23rd Street?
So you claim that Gramercy Park is private property that is paid for. My point about the "community gardens" is that many of them are now private property which were simply seized.
Lets face it, the average New Yorker thinks of Gramercy Park the way they think of the beaches of Greenwich, as a snooty preserve. Why else would the Times publish snide articles about little horticultural tiffs among the members?
But the "community garders" came off as saints.
So you claim that Gramercy Park is private property that is paid for. My point about the "community gardens" is that many of them are now private property which were simply seized.
I guess I'd think of it more as a lease of sorts. You can't deny that the gardens were a better use than their pre-existing conditions as neighborhood garbage dumps. The only issue is that the gardens were never a permanent usage.
Lets face it, the average New Yorker thinks of Gramercy Park the way they think of the beaches of Greenwich, as a snooty preserve. Why else would the Times publish snide articles about little horticultural tiffs among the members?
Actually I don't think the average New Yorker thinks about Gramercy Park at all. And I think the Times published that particular article 'cause the whole gang of VERY large fishes in a VERY small pond are pretty hiliarious when viewed from the outside.
SubTalk content: Still no info on the streetcar line that was to have bisected Gramercy Park ???
Bike trails are a very effective way of putting rail service under permanently. Bike trails are a "green" use with a lot of popular support and destroying one once it's built is hard.
As Larry Littlefield noted, if you let people use a vacant lot "temporarily" as a garden while it's awaiting use for housing, it becomes politically difficult to then actually build the housing "because you'll destroy the garden."
Examples of rail rights-of-way which had legal clauses and understandings that they could be recaptured for rail use are the old Rockaway Line in Queens and the Central Branch in eastern Nassau County. Both are considered virtually impossible to recover for rail.
Bike trails are a very effective way of putting rail service under permanently. Bike trails are a "green" use with a lot of popular support and destroying one once it's built is hard.
As Larry Littlefield noted, if you let people use a vacant lot "temporarily" as a garden while it's awaiting use for housing, it becomes politically difficult to then actually build the housing "because you'll destroy the garden."
Examples of rail rights-of-way which had legal clauses and understandings that they could be recaptured for rail use are the old Rockaway Line in Queens and the Central Branch in eastern Nassau County. Both are considered virtually impossible to recover for rail.
I'm totally outraged over nonsense like this. Blooming idiots are fighting to keep bike paths and gardens, while historical landmarks (that never get designated as such) get torn down so some developer can make money. I make reference to a 130-year old building in College Point, Queens that was recently torn down. Flessel's on the Forgotten NY site.
From
[Examples of rail rights-of-way which had legal clauses and understandings that they could be recaptured for rail use are the old Rockaway Line in Queens and the Central Branch in eastern Nassau County. Both are considered virtually impossible to recover for rail.]
Neither case is entirely applicable to the rails-to-trails issue. The Rockaway Line would not need to be "recaptured" (from new users) because no one's used it at all since the abandonment of service, except possibly for a couple of illegal encroachments. Resumption of service might indeed be very difficult, but that's because of anti-everything neighbors, not because of the difficulty of terminating the right of way's current uses.
The Central Branch is a more complicated case. Eisenhower Park now occupies a substantial section of the right of way. As I've mentioned before, it would be almost inconceiveable to imagine rebuilding the line through the park. Moreover, housing developments occupy part of the right of way to the east of the park.
Much of the Central Branch through Levittown is occupied only by LIPA powerlines and hence physically available for train service. If somehow the Eisenhower Park obstacle could be overcome, would the residents of Levittown accept a resumption of train service? I don't know the answer, and I suspect that no one does, for the simple reason that there's never been a serious discussion of service resumption.
You're right that neither old Rockaway nor Central Branch for rails-to-trails examples. I cited them as illustrations of the futility of "recapture" covenants, although the Central Branch through Eisenhower Park comes close as a "green" issue. I mentioned Cape Cod as a rail-to-trails issue. I should also mention Cape May where rail service has been restored--if a rail trail had been put in you could have kissed that goodbye.
LIRR is well aware of the status of the Central Branch--its restoration would solve several of their problems in one stroke--but they won't touch that with a ten-foot third rail shoe for fear of local opposition.
Just picked up some copies of the December 1999 issue of The Map (I didn't think they would do another one this year).
While I have not had a chance to go over it in detail I can't find anything different from the September issue (except, of course, the date).
I picked my copies up at the Times Square Visitors Center but I am sure GCT has them by now.
You might want to check and see if it has the new service patterns for the 2 and 5.
It is the same as the September issue
I just visited NYC a week ago. I went to GCT and there were still September editions.
I gotta find some time to visit NYC again!
Thank a lot, Allan!
Chaohwa
I was on the trip today. We had a lot of fun. Starting at 167th, we walked up to 162nd and across to the site of the Jerome-Anderson station, which we diidn't scale, then over to the old platforms of Sedgwick Ave. From there we entered the tunnel and walked back to Jerome-Anderson. From there, we returned through the tunnel, and went over the Macomb Dam bridge, looking at the old El stairways and then down to the site of the old Polo Grounds. Pictures were many, company was fun, and we found two old signal markers.
Kudos to Mark Feinman for a really super job organizing the tour, and to Bill Newkirk for his thoughtful souvenirs. I really enjoyed the tour - and the weather was very cooperative.
12/19/99
Rumor has it that Mark W. wants to plan an encore walking tour for those who missed out on an opportunity of a lifetime. I'll let Mark W. cue all of you who had to do Christmas shopping or attend a football game
My aching feet!!
Bill Newkirk
The 155th Street-Polo Grounds Shuttle
I know that a few of you want to do it again. I also know that there were some who wanted to see if we came out alive before going themselves.... LET'S DO IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!
Date: January 16, 2000
Time: 11:00AM
Place: 167th Street station N/B platform.
Sunday the 16th is good because the 17th is a holiday (Martin Luther King Jr. day)
Now that we know what is there we can pay more attention to detail.
Well the date is set for now but can be changed. Please E-Mail me if you have questions, comments or suggestions.......Mark W.
I've read all the posts from everyone about the Polo Grounds Shuttle Walking Tour so far. I went on the same walking tour with 5 other railfans 25 years ago. You guys did something I didn't do, and I did something you guys didn't do. You went into the tunnel at Sedgewick, and went to the Jerome-Anderson side, seeing what was left of the Jerome-Anderson station from inside the tunnel, but not climbing up to platform level and standing on the platform. I climbed up to the platform at Jerome-Anderson and stood on the platform, but didn't make it into the tunnel. When I went, the tunnel entrance at Sedgewick Ave. was tinned over. We couldn't get in. From what I remember, there was no way in from Jerome-Anderson either. What were things like at Sedgewick? How did you get into the tunnel? Was the tin seal ripped off the tunnel entrance? I am very anxious to see current photos of what I've seen back in 1974. For those of you who haven't seen my pics of the Polo Grounds Shuttle from 25 years ago, go to my NYC TRANSIT site. You can see what Jerome-Anderson looked like from the outside - from the platform. I was also anxious to find out if the "Shuttle - Uptown Side Only" sign stenciled on the concrete at Jerome-Anderson was still visible, or if the elements or graffiti took its toll. I know that you can't answer that question, as you weren't on the Jerome-Anderson platform. That sign is on the concrete right above where you were peering out from the tunnel, on the outside.
From
The 2 pics I was able to get with my DC before it crashed (it was the cold, not the batteries!!!) are now posted here :http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/ Look for the three files dated 12/20/99.
-Hank
The 2 pics I was able to get with my DC before it crashed (it was the cold, not the batteries!!!) are now posted here :http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/ Look for the three files dated 12/20/99.
-Hank
I looked at your pic at Jerome-Anderson and compared it with mine from 25 years ago. It looks like some construction took place. It looks like a cinderblock wall on a column. Also, it looks like what was once a doorway bricked up, is now a door again. There is much rubble and trash that wasn't there before. When I was there, only broken glass was strewn on the platform. Somebody who made a previous post about the walking tour said that he just saw the platform from the tunnel. I assumed that you guys weren't on the platform. From the photo, you obviousely were. I can't see from your photo, but right above the doorway was a stenciled sign reading "Shuttle Uptown Side Only". Is that sign still there, or was it destroyed when the doorway was reopened? I can hardly wait to see more pics of the current walking tour.
aka
http://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
We were on the platform, but we came in from track level and then up onto the cat-walk. There was no access from the Jerome-Anderson side. I don't recall seeing the sign and it is possible that where you saw it was not accessible.
Actually, if you scaled the rock wall on the Jerome-Andersen side (which we decided not to do because of the large crowd we had) and walked over the fence, there was an opening in the fence (a door which is no longer there) that would have given you access.
--Mark
I forgot about the rock wall, and I can't say I remember the hole in the fence.
There was a hole, and a gat...I just got some more pics from my girlfreind's camera (which worked...score one for the anti-techies) which I will try and get scanned tonight. They'll be posted in the same spot, just look for the photos with the new dates. http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new
-Hank
If anyone got any shots of the cars, or car carcasses, in the tunnels, I'll take a shot at IDing the years -- to settle the question of when they may have been put there.
Just e-mail 'em to me.
If anyone got any shots of the cars, or car carcasses, in the tunnels, I'll take a shot at IDing the years -- to settle the question of when they may have been put there.
Just e-mail 'em to me.
Put them on the Internet.
From
Actually, if you scaled the rock wall on the Jerome-Andersen side (which we decided not to do because of the large crowd we had) and walked over the fence, there was an opening in the fence (a door which is no longer there) that would have given you access.
--Mark
When I went, we were a group of six led by Steve Zabel. I don't remember how we got up to platform level. I'm sure it wasn't that difficult, because I was never a very adept climber. As for climbing and scaling, I could do a little, but never any of the spectacular kind of stuff you see on TV.
From
Don't worry - it wasn't THAT steep. :)
--Mark
We were on the platform, but we came in from track level and then up onto the cat-walk. There was no access from the Jerome-Anderson side. I don't recall seeing the sign and it is possible that where you saw it was not accessible
It was accessible. If you were on the station platform, the sign "Shuttle Uptown Side Only was right above thedoorway leading into the tunnel. The only thing was that when I went 25 years ago, the tunnel doorway was bricked over. I had to climb up to the platform from the street.
From
I have a black and white snapshot of Jerome/Anderson after abandonment - probably taken in the early sixties since I bought the photo at an ERA N.Y. Division about '67 or '68. I shows the door bricked up just as in your photo. The painted sign is above it too.
I have a black and white snapshot of Jerome/Anderson after abandonment - probably taken in the early sixties since I bought the photo at an ERA N.Y. Division about '67 or '68. I shows the door bricked up just as in your photo. The painted sign is above it too.
Could you put it on the net and give us the URL?
From
Thanks for the request, however I don't have a computer, I only use the one at work. If I can ask a huge favor of a friend of mine who has a computer/scanner than I can email it as an attachement to someone who would be able to put it up on the site.
Thanks for the request, however I don't have a computer, I only use the one at work. If I can ask a huge favor of a friend of mine who has a computer/scanner than I can email it as an attachement to someone who would be able to put it up on the site.
I would like to see as many pics of the Polo Grounds Shuttle as possible - in service, just after abandonment, and currently. Since this walking tour was first arranged, I'm sure that many other railfans have been feeling the same way. That's the reason why I put my pics on my site NYC TRANSIT. I hope that everyone who went on the walking tour on 12/19/1999 will also put their pics on the Internet. It gives us all a chance to compare pics, time periods and notes. There are a handful of us on SubTalk that left the City years ago and are unable to go on these walking tours. I'm one, Sea Beach Fred is another, and BOB #1 BRIGHTON EXP MAN is yet another. There are a few others whose names (handles) escape me. I'm glad I had the chance to do it back in 1974. I left the City 19 years ago. The only way I can see what the Polo Grounds Shuttle currently looks like is on the Internet. Also, I haven't been in the tunnel. I'd love to see pics of the tunnel.
From
I also about seeing the Polo Grounds Shuttle on this site from the 12-19-99 trip. Also, are there any relays or terminal boards left in the signals cases? Need to see pictures of this so I can ID them for Subtalk. I very excited about the trip. Glad I suggested it to begin with.
Don't worry. A fully revised trip report (I'll put all the detail in it that I can remember) and pictures from my video (thank you, Snappy :) will be forthcoming soon.
That, and the group photo!
--Mark
That's great. Get the photos of the signal equipment. Any running or third rail in place?
No rails, but there were the remains of the signla equipment.
-Hank
Nope ... I saw ONE rail. No picture.
--Mark
Don't worry. A fully revised trip report (I'll put all the detail in it that I can remember) and pictures from my video (thank you, Snappy :) will be forthcoming soon.
That, and the group photo!
--Mark
I'll be looking forward to seeing them. BTW, when are the new Franklin Ave. Shuttle pics going to be added to this site? I've already seen Joe Koreman's new Franklin Ave. Shuttle pics (pretty extensive coverage of the new Shuttle), but I'd like to se more.
From
> BTW, when are the new Franklin Ave. Shuttle pics going to be added
> to this site?
"the" new pics? I haven't been sent any that I'm aware.
-Dave
> BTW, when are the new Franklin Ave. Shuttle pics going to be added
> to this site?
"the" new pics? I haven't been sent any that I'm aware.
-Dave
Allright, guys. Start e-mailing Dave some 1999 Franklin Shuttle pics so he can put them on the site!
From
Mark, if you send me the video, I can upload video clips. I have my own video footage, some of which is worth uploading, and digital camera pictures, but my computer is in a sealed building till the 16th of January.
What do you use for the video clips? I used a Snappy to get some stills from the video I took.
--Mark
A couple of books with pictures of the shuttle:"New York Transit Memories" by Harold A. Smith- pg 17 has a couple of pictures of 2 car shuttle trains at the Polo Grounds Station."The Subway" by Stan Fischler on pg 36 has an earlier picture of the same station when it was still part of the Ninth Av El. I bought both books at the Court St Transit Museum and there are many other old photos.
Pictures will be forthcoming. The video I took came out surprisingly well, even inside the tunnel.
In addition, I will be posting a revised trip report based off the solo walk I did a few weeks ago.
In short, we walked through tne entire tunnel and up onto the Jerome/Andersen platform. We covered every inch of the remnants.
--Mark
"Pictures will be forthcoming. The video I took came out surprisingly well, even inside the tunnel.
In addition, I will be posting a revised trip report based off the solo walk I did a few weeks ago.
In short, we walked through tne entire tunnel and up onto the Jerome/Andersen platform. We covered every inch of the remnants"
That's fantastic. How about signals, tracks, etc.
All rail and ties have been removed. The ballast is still there in both tunnels. Signals boxes remain but have all been gutted. We found one Signal that still had some of the wiring in it as well as where you screw in the light bulbs but most of them are just rusted boxes. There are a few signal equipment boxes along both tunnels as well all empty and rusted (one on the track bed, tried to move it but it was too heavy). Two signal plates were recovered by Mark and another person, all of the signals I got to look at the plates were gone (but then I didn't have a flash light).
We did find a painted sign in the west side tunnel (can't recall the ave name) and I am sure you'll see a picture or two since eveyone was flashing pictures of it (and runing my night vision).
The best SuBTalk tour yet (that I have been on).
We did find a painted sign in the west side tunnel (can't recall the ave name)
Woodycrest Avenue.
Infra-red can sometimes be a wonderful thing :)
--Mark
I was the guy who recovered the second signal plate. Mine is pretty rusty. Almost all of the baked enamel is gone; you can see bits of the numbers/letters and some of the separating black line through the middle that separates the Track info A1,2 etc. (top) from the route letter code (bottom). The 155th shuttle's letter code for signals on that section is "R" (found in the Appendix of Joe Cunningham and Leonard DeHart's 3 volumes in one reissue of, "History of the New York City Subway System" - IRT volume)
Ed, could you get a photo of the signal number plate on this site? i would appreciate it. Thanks.
Any photos of signal equipment would be appreciated.
I have neither a computer or scanner at home (I use one at work) so it would be difficult. Also, it would be a disappointing photo since most of the enamel has rusted off. Mark W. found a signal plate that was much better preserved and really does warrent a photo. Mark, would you like to put yours up on this site?
- Ed
Where can you find copies of that anyway?
Pictures will be forthcoming. The video I took came out surprisingly well, even inside the tunnel.
In addition, I will be posting a revised trip report based off the solo walk I did a few weeks ago.
In short, we walked through tne entire tunnel and up onto the Jerome/Andersen platform. We covered every inch of the remnants.
--Mark
As for the stations, I've been to both. Its the tunnel that I didn't have access to. The tour yesterday sounds like it was exciting. I can hardly wait to see everyone's pics on the Net. I saw one of Hank Eisenstein's pics. He put it on the Net already.
From
Hah, that's me in the jacket with white arms, first one in the door. Pretty white in this shot with the trek half over but not at the other end!!!
Yep...I had to scrub out the date, since this is the only pic I got after I was able to 'reboot' my camera. Ain't digital wonderful? I got the 'old fashioned' pictures from Jodi today, I'll scan a couple tonight. Just have to clean off the scanner....
-Hank
Yep...I had to scrub out the date, since this is the only pic I got after I was able to 'reboot' my camera. Ain't digital wonderful? I got the 'old fashioned' pictures from Jodi today, I'll scan a couple tonight. Just have to clean off the scanner....
-Hank
I bookmarked your "Index of /~nixon/new" URL. I'll be looking for your pics. Hank, do you realize that you are the first to post any pics from the 12/19 PG Walking Tour?
Well, we finished the roll of film, had it developed, and posted more. I moved the pics, too. Same place, but they've got their own folder now.
-Hank
I had a great time yesterday, and yes, next time I will bring a flashlight! Thanks to Mark Feinman and to Mark W. for organizing/leading the tour. Thanks as well to Bill Newkirk for photcopying and handing out the 1958 closure notice. Exploring the shuttle's remains is something I've been wanting to do since I first heard about the shuttle (years ago), so it's been a transit exploration wish that's been a long time coming. It was awesome to finally be able to inspect the stations' remains at both ends and access both tunnels. Mark, that's me by the way at Jerome-Anderson with the orange backpack walking towards the door.
How did you get onto the platform from the Jerome Ave end? It was completely fenced off today, and there was no obvious way over those fences.
At Sedgwick Ave., there was an opening in the "wall" covering the entrance to the "eastbound" trackway, and so we just walked in. It was a rectangular opening, basically a doorway with no door. The only obstruction after that was a few junked cars in the tunnel toward the Jerome Ave. end. They must have been brought there before the walls over the tunnel ends were installed.
Anyway, we did get onto the platform at the Jerome-Anderson station. There was a definite doorway in the wall that once sealed off the tunnel, again no door in the doorway. We could look out to the street from behind the black fence, but there seemed to be no way anyone could get in or out from that end. Among the debris found on the platform was the remains of an Apple IIe computer.
Many of us walked back through the "westbound" trackway - no cars blocking the way, but we had to cross back over to the "eastbound" side on the Sedgwick Ave. end through one of the crossover holes spaced at intervals throughout the tunnel in order to get back out. All in all it was an exciting trip. Thanks again to Mark W. for leading it.
Where there any signals or tracks in place? I'm glad I suggested the trip to begin with.
POST PICTURES PLEASE!
No tracks at all, but signals - or rather empty signal housings - were there. One greeted us as soon as we entered the tunnel. The control box from one of them was found on the tunnel floor. The housings had no bulbs in them, of course, and no colored lenses in front, but on one a few traces of the edge of a green lens could be seen still attached to the metal. And one of them still had the signal plate (loosely) attached. Mark W. took it as a souvenir - the ID number could not be read, only tiny patches of the black letters/numbers on white background remained on the mostly bare metal.
How did you get onto the platform from the Jerome Ave end? It was completely fenced off today, and there was no obvious way over those fences.
I got up there 25 years ago. At that time, the only way up to the platform was climbing. I don't exactly remember if there was a fence at all, or if there was a hole in a fence. I do know that I'm no urban mountain goat, and I'm not able to scale high fences. If you look at the pics on my site NYC TRANSIT from 25 years ago, you will notice that the doorway to the Jerome-Anderson platform from the tunnel was bricked over - no access to the tunnel. There was no access to the tunnel from Sedgewick either. The tunnel entrance was tinned over. Curious question: The abandoned cars in the tunnel, what years were they from? 1950's, 1960's 1970's, 1980's or 1990's?
From
It looks like Rocky's Chop Shop deals in late model cars. One of them was a Toyota Corolla.
--Mark
It looks like Rocky's Chop Shop deals in late model cars. One of them was a Toyota Corolla.
That makes sense. The tunnel was sealed up years ago. I wonder why they opened it, putting in new doorways? All opening the tunnel does is give Rocky's a haven to do their dirty work in and a place for adventurous kids to hurt themselves. I'm sure the City didn't open access to the tunnel for railfans.
From
Probably to enable the TA to install the Metrocard Vending Machines.
JC
Probably to enable the TA to install the Metrocard Vending Machines
Rocky's chop shop would probably do a number on those also.
From
What I don't get is that opening we went through wasn't wide enough for a car to get through. At least, I didn't think it was.
--Mark
Neither did their respective drivers!!
What I don't get is that opening we went through wasn't wide enough for a car to get through. At least, I didn't think it was.
--Mark
That's a riddle for me too, even though I didn't see the opening you're talking about at Sedgewick. I assume its no wider than a typical doorway. The only thing I can think of is that the cars were put there before the doorway was put in. All I saw at the tunnel entrance 25 years ago was tin (probably sheet steel) covering the tunnel entrance. Maybe sometime between the 1970's when the sheet steel covered the entrance and the time that the doorway was put in, maybe some street gang just ripped the steel off of the tunnel entrance. If the entrance was wide enough for MUDC's and Flivvers to fit thru, it certainly was wide enough for a Toyota Corolla to fit through. I find it shocking that abandoned cars were found in the tunnel in the first place. Another question is how did the theives get the cars down to the entrance to the tunnel in the first place?
BTW, it was mentioned in another post about a painted sign in the tunnel that read Woodycrest Avenue. Woodycrest Ave. is just one block west of Anderson Ave. With the finding of that sign in the tunnel near the Jerome-Anderson station, I assume that the Jerome-Anderson station must of had an exit at Woodycrest Ave. See detailed street map below:
From
I assume its no wider than a typical doorway.
Double doorway.
The only thing I can think of is that the cars were put there before the doorway was put in ... maybe some street gang just ripped the steel off of the tunnel entrance.
Sounds logical.
Another question is how did the theives get the cars down to the
entrance to the tunnel in the first place?
I will guess that the cars were driven under the Major Deegan and around the platform remnants to the uptown tunnel and driven through to the Jerome/Andersen side. (not that this is easy - that'd be some incline). The end of the tunnel at Jerome/Andersen was blocked by a 1/2 concrete / 1/2 grated wall (to allow ventilation) and littered nearly 2/3 of the way up with tires.
BTW, it was mentioned in another post about a painted sign in the tunnel that read Woodycrest Avenue. Woodycrest Ave. is just one block west of Anderson Ave. With the finding of that sign in the tunnel near the Jerome-Anderson station, I assume that the Jerome-Anderson station must of had an exit at Woodycrest Ave.
Doesn't look that way. Remnants of 2 exits were found - both seemed to come out on Andersen Ave. The Jerome Ave entrance remains are likely a door we saw to an awning shop (standard IRT green tiles were observed on one side of the Jerome remains) and likely would have led to somewhere on the elevated platform over Jerome Ave, which is of course no longer there.
I suspect the sign for Woodycrest Ave was just a location marker. We didn't see any emergency exits in the tunnel at all (but there were "ladders" leading up to the catwalk every 5 feet, something that we felt was also unusual).
--Mark
I will guess that the cars were driven under the Major Deegan and around the platform remnants to the uptown tunnel and driven through to the Jerome/Andersen side. (not that this is easy - that'd be some incline). The end of the tunnel at Jerome/Andersen was blocked by a 1/2 concrete / 1/2 grated wall (to allow ventilation) and littered nearly 2/3 of the way up with tires.
Where were the cars exactly? In the tunnel, or out on the platform area? And, where were the tires? On the platform or in the tunnel? When I saw Hank's photo, I was startled by all the rubble and trash strewn all over the platform at Jerome-Anderson. That mess wasn't there when I was there, just a lot of broken glass. It looks like the Jerome-Anderson station has become a garbage dump. It wouldn't surprise me if the tenants in that apartment building above the platform chuck stuff out their windows onto the platform below.
Doesn't look that way. Remnants of 2 exits were found - both seemed to come out on Andersen Ave. The Jerome Ave entrance remains are likely a door we saw to an awning shop (standard IRT green tiles were observed on one side of the Jerome remains) and likely would have led to somewhere on the elevated platform over Jerome Ave, which is of course no longer there.
To get a clearer picture of what Jerome-Anderson was like, this photo, taken in 1963 shows the rest of the Jerome-Anderson platform up on a concrete viaduct structure that was since torn down. I'd like to see a picture of that awning shop to compare it with this 1963 photo.
From
May I use that photo for my upcoming 9th Ave shuttle page on...
www.forgotten-ny.com?
That green car in the foreground looks like a 1965 or 1966 model, if you ask me.
That green car in the foreground looks like a 1965 or 1966 model, if you ask me.
I thought about that. It is possible. I was thinking the same thing, looking at the car. But really looking at it, that car could be anything from a 1962 to a 1965. Maybe a '66, but that's stretching it. It is a slide that I bought at the ERA, and it has a date written on it: 3/2/63. We need a car expert. You have me so curious, I'd like to know year, make and model. It could be an old Ford Falcon, but I'm not sure. Another way to date the photo is the traffic light. It has the three colors (green, yellow and red), not two. When did traffic lights go from dark green to bright yellow? That one is a dark green one. It is also lacking the "Walk/Don't Walk" sign. I would think that the "Walk/Don't Walk" signs were prevalent by the mid-sixties. it is still very possible that the slide is from the early sixties. Like I said, we need an expert on this one.
From
The car is a '63, '64 or '65 full-size Pontiac.
Are you sure? It looks like it could be a Falcon or a Corvair. It looks like the front grill is missing which could mean its a Corvair. Also, what about the dark green traffic signal that is lacking a "Walk/Don't Walk" sign?
From
Are you sure? It looks like it could be a Falcon or a Corvair. It looks like the front grill is missing which could mean its a Corvair.
Yes, I'm sure. Corvairs had either single headlights or horizontal pairs. Falcons had single headlights. And both were smaller than this car.
It's a full-size Pontiac, '63, '64 or '65 -- not sure about the small differences among those model years.
Yes, I'm sure. Corvairs had either single headlights or horizontal pairs. Falcons had single headlights. And both were smaller than this car.
It's a full-size Pontiac, '63, '64 or '65 -- not sure about the small differences among those model years.
Thanks for narrowing it down to a Pontiac. Now we need the year. This is definately a curious issue. If it was a 1963 Pontiac and the pic was taken in 1963, that would have made the car brand new. Another thought is maybe the car belonged to the picture-taker. All I know is that I bought the slide at the ERA and it had "3/2/63" written on it. It didn't have a name on it like Zabel's or Grotjahn's stuff either.
From
Pontiac LeMans, maybe?
--Mark
That green car in the foreground looks like a 1965 or 1966 model, if you ask me.
I thought about that. It is possible. I was thinking the same thing, looking at the car. But really looking at it, that car could be anything from a 1962 to a 1965. Maybe a '66, but that's stretching it. It is a slide that I bought at the ERA, and it has a date written on it: 3/2/63. We need a car expert. You have me so curious, I'd like to know year, make and model. It could be an old Ford Falcon, but I'm not sure. Another way to date the photo is the traffic light. It has the three colors (green, yellow and red), not two. When did traffic lights go from dark green to bright yellow? That one is a dark green one. It is also lacking the "Walk/Don't Walk" sign. I would think that the "Walk/Don't Walk" signs were prevalent by the mid-sixties. it is still very possible that the slide is from the early sixties. Like I said, we need an expert on this one. I forgot. Let me post the photo again.
From
The vehicle is a 1963 Pontiac Catalina. In the background, right side of the street, is a 1961 (I think) Oldsmobile 88; parked in front of it is what appears to be a 1962 Chevrolet, full size. The license plate on the Olds appears to be yellow, which would also make sense for 1963; 1964 New York plates were black with yellow lettering, and they were updated with a red sticker (placed vertically down the middle of the plate) in 1965. The plate on the front of the Pontiac does not appear to be a New York plate; I'm guessing it's a Connecticut tag, but that's strictly a guess.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The vehicle is a 1963 Pontiac Catalina. In the background, right side of the street, is a 1961 (I think) Oldsmobile 88; parked in front of it is what appears to be a 1962 Chevrolet, full size. The license plate on the Olds appears to be yellow, which would also make sense for 1963; 1964 New York plates were black with yellow lettering, and they were updated with a red sticker (placed vertically down the middle of the plate) in 1965. The plate on the front of the Pontiac does not appear to be a New York plate; I'm guessing it's a Connecticut tag, but that's strictly a guess.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for solving the mystery. BTW, weren't the NY plates schoolbus yellow lettering on a dark blue background before it was inverted later in the seventies?
From
Yes, they were. Those tags were first issued in 1966, IIRC, and changed when New York went to staggered registration (with the first of those ridiculous windshield stickers) about 1972 or 1973.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course, windshield stickers can't be clipped off.
Well, I've never had that problem with my North Carolina stickers. They use a really good glue - I've got better than ten years' worth stacked one on top of another and I'd be hard pressed to get them apart.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, I've never had that problem with my North Carolina stickers. They use a really good glue - I've got better than ten years' worth stacked one on top of another and I'd be hard pressed to get them apart.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I used to paste the inspection stickers one above or next to the other every year when I lived in NY, and when I had 4 on the windshield, I got a ticket for obstructing the view. I even tried fighting it in court, but I lost. I wasn't the only one doing that. Where do you think I got the idea from, in the first place? From other motorists. As for stacking, I do that now with registration stickers. In Florida, they give you a new sticker every year to paste over the old one in the upper right corner of the plate. I'll just paste them on top of the old each year until they issue me a new plate. Then, I start over again, building up more. I just got a new plate for 2000. I'll be stacking 2001, 2002, 2003, etc., until I get another new plate.
From
That's why I hate the stickers in the window - they obscure the view. Put 'em at the top edge, they bother most people. Put 'em low, they're in the way of the super-short (like my mother). Put 'em by the right wiper arm pivot, like Virginia does, they bother everybody.
I know we're getting off topic, but hasn't it occurred to the bureaucrats that the best way to handle registration AND inspection is to do both at the same place, same time - the inspection station? Then only one sticker - on the plate - would be required. Plate transfers would require a trip to the inspection station within 10 days for an updated expiration/certification.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's why I hate the stickers in the window - they obscure the view. Put 'em at the top edge, they bother most people. Put 'em low, they're in the way of the super-short (like my mother). Put 'em by the right wiper arm pivot, like Virginia does, they bother everybody.
I know we're getting off topic, but hasn't it occurred to the bureaucrats that the best way to handle registration AND inspection is to do both at the same place, same time - the inspection station? Then only one sticker - on the plate - would be required. Plate transfers would require a trip to the inspection station within 10 days for an updated expiration/certification.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Florida, no safety inspection is required (lights, brakes, tires, directional signals, etc.)as in NYS. It was eliminated in 1981. Instead, you have to bring your car into a State Inspection Station for an emission check, which costs $10. If you pass (I never failed), you send the inspection certification with your registration renewal, and a check for $28, and they send you a year sticker to stick on the upper right corner of your plate (Florida only has the rear plate). The 2000 sticker is white numbers over a green background. They also use blue, red and yellow. 1999 was red. They issued me a whole new plate for 2000.
From
Colorado also did away with safety inspections in 1982. We do have emissions testing along the Front Range, which for most vehicles is done every two years. Luckily, the stickers which are used now can be transferred (reused) if, for instance, you replace a cracked windshield. My Jeep is on its fifth windshield, thanks to all that stupid gravel that gets dumped whenever it snows, and it's cracked. You don't see too many rustbuckets out here, but you sure see plenty of cracked windshields.
Our road in North Carolina wasn't paved until about 1992. I carried zero-deductible comprehensive on all my cars to cover the annual windshield replacement per car; as a result I had to change insurance companies twice because they cancelled me over "excessive claims".
And I agree - safety inspections are a joke. I'm glad that I've been able to keep my cars registered in North Carolina, though, as New Jersey's new inspection laws are even more ridiculous than North Carolina's. It will be interesting to see if the latest change (which went into effect last week) survives the court challenge that will surely be made the first time someone is told their car is permanently banned from being registered in New Jersey because it failed twice in a row. (And very few cars over ten years old will pass, as they must meet CURRENT emissions standards that are six times as strict as those in effect as when they were manufactured.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I agree - safety inspections are a joke. I'm glad that I've been able to keep my cars registered in North Carolina, though, as New Jersey's new inspection laws are even more ridiculous than North Carolina's. It will be interesting to see if the latest change (which went into effect last week) survives the court challenge that will surely be made the first time someone is told their car is permanently banned from being registered in New Jersey because it failed twice in a row. (And very few cars over ten years old will pass, as they must meet CURRENT emissions standards that are six times as strict as those in effect as when they were manufactured.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Florida, the emission standards vary according to the age of the vehicle. There is more tolerance for the older vehicles than for the newer ones. It is pretty difficult for a vehicle to fail an emissions test here. Your car has to be belching some serious pollution to fail.
From
And I agree - safety inspections are a joke.
I STRONGLY disagree! I'm all for keeping govt out of the lives of citizens, but a 4,000-pound highly complex machine should be regularly inspected to ensure that it displays proper lights, can stop adequately and has tires with at least minimal tread. Annual safety inspections are perfectly reasonable and a small price to pay to ensure at least minimal mechanical adequacy of the vehicles on our road. Why should anyone think they have a right to drive a car with malfunctioning brakes, half the lights out and no tread on the tires?
... New Jersey's new inspection laws are even more ridiculous than North Carolina's. It will be interesting to see if the latest change (which went into effect last week) survives the court challenge that will surely be made the first time someone is told their car is permanently banned from being registered in New Jersey because it failed twice in a row. (And very few cars over ten years old will pass, as they must meet CURRENT emissions standards that are six times as strict as those in effect as when they were manufactured.)
I think we're confusing SAFETY inspections with POLLUTION inspections here. The point of the regulations, as badly implemented as they seem to be, is that a tiny minority of old or ill-tuned cars now produce a majority of the pollution on our roads. For instance, a badly-tuned or oil-burning pre-catalyst car now produces 200 times the pollution of a new Honda.
BUT: Asking old cars to meet current emissions standards is absurd. Even California doesn't do that. Are we sure that's what NJ is doing? I'm skeptical.
Safety inspections are a joke simply because, in most states, they don't actually inspect for safety. A cursory check of the brakes (does the car stop when the inspector pulls it up to the emissions machine), a check (maybe) to see if the light bulbs work, and a quick look at the tires and wiper blades (the blades are guaranteed to need replacement, even if they were replaced five minutes before the vehicle arrived at the inspection station). Headlight alignment isn't checked any more, even though (in my opinion) it's a bigger problem than ever (each make and model of car requires a different alignment jig now, and the cost of these is beyond what an independent mechanic can justify - only the dealerships have them). In North Carolina a car will flunk inspection if the power steering fluid reservoir isn't properly filled, but they aren't allowed to check the brake fluid level since opening the brake fluid reservoir might cause contamination. And the trend toward every-other-year inspection means someone could be driving unsafely for a very long time before the inspector detects a problem. If they really did keep unsafe cars off the roads I'd be in favor of them, but they don't. Take a look at accident statistics. On a percentage basis, states with safety inspections and states without safety inspections have an equivalent rate of accidents attributed to "improper equipment" or "mechanical failure" in a passenger vehicle. (Big trucks are another situation altogether, but they're covered under different statues anyway.)
New Jersey's new pollution inspection is extremely strict, and applies to all cars not eligible for historic plates (in other words, all cars less than 25 years old). That's just one of the problems with the new law. If a vehicle fails twice in succession, plate surrender is mandatory and immediate; the vehicle is impounded and may be removed from the inspection station only under tow to a salvage yard or out of state. You can't even tow it to a local dealer and trade it in. Now let's say you go to the trouble and expense of towing it to Pennsylvania or New York and selling it there. Three years down the road the new owner moves to New Jersey. Guess what? He can't title the vehicle in New Jersey; attempting to do so will result in its being impounded pending removal (under tow) from the state. Buy an ex-New Jersey car that failed inspection? Don't get stopped for speeding in New Jersey, it's illegal to EVER operate the vehicle in the state again, regardless of its state of registration. This WILL get tested in the courts, I'm sure!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Pennsylvania there is a once a year safety inspection. One front wheel and a rear wheel on opposite sides of the car are pulled to measure brake pad depth or thickness. All four tires are gauged for tread remaining. If any of these measurements fail specs, the car is flunked until the tire or tires or brakes are replaced. All lights and wipers have to pass as well. The exhaust system is also inspected for holes. I had to replace the wipers one year to pass inspection. This is a completely separate inspection from the emissions inspection.
Living in Pa. I also had to go through many state inspections for my cars. I think for the most part they are very fair, and catch a lot of bad things on your car. I think one thing they a little strict on is body holes, unless they are definitely in a place where exaust gasses may leak in cause you a slow demise. Both my cars are fairly new, a 95 Neon and a 98 Ford Windstar , so "everything" passes most of the time. We are leasing the Ford for 2 years and are allowed to put up to 24,000 miles on it. This tatic leaves my free of inspection worries for the Ford. In fact, we will be turning it in before the next inspection is due so I only had to go through (1) inspection with it!
Chuck Greene
Only allowed 24,000 miles on a two year lease?!?! Guess that's why I've never leased a vehicle - that's less than ONE year's driving for me. My '96 Windstar (purchased as a new leftover in February '97) has over 73K on it, trouble free. And two of the tires are original (three, technically, but one served as the spare for the first 60K). And I used to drive a lot more, back in the days when my commute was over 100 miles round trip rather than the 21 miles r/t I've been driving the past four years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My daily round trip commute has been right around 100 miles for 12 years. I was hired by my present company two months before I bought my Jeep. People find it hard to understand how I could have such a long commute for so long. To be honest, it has never bothered me. I leave for work before 5:00 AM, when there is hardly any traffic. The trip back can be a bit of a pain if there is a traffic tieup, but I have several escape routes in place.
There is a bright side to a long commute: because it's almost entirely highway driving, my engine gets a rigorous workout every day. It doesn't know what sludge is. After 5000 miles, the oil is still dark brown, not black, when I drain it out.
More gee-whiz facts: my original brakes lasted almost 250,000 miles. The original clutch held up for 202,000 miles, although when it finally gave out, there was very little warning. I've averaged over 80,000 miles on a set of tires, including a whopping 107,000 on the first set alone. The muffler and exhaust system are all original. I put in a Gates sealed battery about a year and a half after buying the car, and it lasted just over nine years. Can't complain about any of that.
More gee-whiz facts: my original brakes lasted almost 250,000 miles. The original clutch held up for 202,000 miles, although when it finally gave out, there was very little warning. I've averaged over 80,000 miles on a set of tires, including a whopping 107,000 on the first set alone. The muffler and exhaust system are all original. I put in a Gates sealed battery about a year and a half after buying the car, and it lasted just over nine years. Can't complain about any of that.
Geez!! The Colorado climate and altitude must be very good for cars! In South Florida, with the heat and salt, you're lucky if you can get 3 years out of a battery. With harsh traffic conditions (stop and go), tires and brakes suffer. You must be doing alot of highway driving with no congestion on the roads.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Put it this way: in the morning, there is virtually no traffic; I have a straight shot all the way to the office. During afternoons, there will be more traffic and sometimes I may encounter pockets of stop-and-go. If it's really bad, I'll go all the way around Denver via I-70 and C-470.
Colorado's climate is semi-arid. We average 12 inches of rain per year in Denver. Single-digit relative humidity is common during the summer. Cars generally don't rust out here; cracked windshields are another story.
We have our share of congestion. I-25 approaches gridlock every day around the Tech Center. Voters approved a referendum last month to widen 19 miles of I-25 all at once, and at the same time put in a light rail line.
Safety inspections are a joke simply because, in most states, they don't actually inspect for safety.
Mouse, I don't recall what state you're from, but in upstate NY (where I keep my 3 cars), they take it seriously, do the inspection comprehensively, and don't grumble (much) about the $16 state-mandated fee (up from the even more insulting $10) for up to an hour of work. They do get to charge for re-aiming headlights, replacing bulbs, filling fluid, etc.
Having "bought" smog certificates for old cars in CA (many years ago), I fully understand that such systems can easily be corrupted if done by cynical inspectors, car owners who couldn't care less about operating a well-maintained machine, and/or unrealistic safety standards.
That said ... I'd wager that the majority of NY State inspection stations take the job seriously and result in a major improvement to car safety. They have undercover check inspectors to ensure they're doing it right, too, BTW.
Back on topic: I keep my cars upstate because I've built my life around the subways, Metro North and the LIRR. Works well!
I spend most of my time in New Jersey nowadays but home is North Carolina, and that's where my fleet of four active vehicles are registered. I've also lived in Virginia and New York (where inspections are required), Michigan (where they're not), and several other states as well, but not long enough in any of those places to even register a car there. New York and Virginia are so long back, though, that I'm unacquainted with current practice in either state.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back on topic: I keep my cars upstate because I've built my life around the subways, Metro North and the LIRR. Works well!
Why have the cars if they're not readily available? When I lived in New York, I only used the car on the weekends, but it was at my residence.
From
New Jersey's new pollution inspection is extremely strict, and applies to all cars not eligible for historic plates (in other words, all cars less than 25 years old). That's just one of the problems with the new law. If a vehicle fails twice in succession, plate surrender is mandatory and immediate; the vehicle is impounded and may be removed from the inspection station only under tow to a salvage yard or out of state. You can't even tow it to a local dealer and trade it in. Now let's say you go to the trouble and expense of towing it to Pennsylvania or New York and selling it there. Three years down the road the new owner moves to New Jersey. Guess what? He can't title the vehicle in New Jersey; attempting to do so will result in its being impounded pending removal (under tow) from the state. Buy an ex-New Jersey car that failed inspection? Don't get stopped for speeding in New Jersey, it's illegal to EVER operate the vehicle in the state again, regardless of its state of registration. This WILL get tested in the courts, I'm sure!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That stinking law needs to be thrown out. Like I said, here in Florida, emission tolerances are more relaxed for the older vehicles than for the newer ones.
From
That's a good idea, but it can't be done in New York because of biennial registration and annual inspection. It can be done by eliminating two year registrations or allowing 2 year inspections (the latter being preferable).
Yes, I did make the assumption that both had to be on the same schedule. When I lived in Virginia back in the '70s inspection was TWICE a year; I think it's only once a year now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not talking about peeling, usually unsuccessful, I'm talking about clipping, where the culprit clips a corner of the plate. This is common in Philadelphia.
Hmmm... never heard of that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they were. Those tags were first issued in 1966, IIRC, and changed when New York went to staggered registration (with the first of those ridiculous windshield stickers) about 1972 or 1973.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1964 plates were yellow over black? I don't remember. If you say so.
From
Yes, with the World's Fair slogan at the bottom.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected. I thought it looked like a Pontiac, anyway.
Looking at the door on the way out, it's a simple steel rolldown gate, certainly wide enough to get a car throuh, if you're careful. The pin that holds the gate was clipped, the lock was still intact.
-Hank
Looking at the door on the way out, it's a simple steel rolldown gate, certainly wide enough to get a car throuh, if you're careful. The pin that holds the gate was clipped, the lock was still intact.
-Hank
Interesting. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't know why they put doorways at both ends of the tunnel. When I was there in 1974, the doorway at Jerome-Anderson was bricked up and the entance at Sedgewick was tinned over. Wouldn't they have been better off permanently sealing the tunnel? Who knows, maybe one day they'll find a body in there.
From
Honestly......I thought we might find one
Honestly......I thought we might find one
When they do, they'll brick it up at both ends. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you guys had such a nice tour and got to walk the tunnel. But, it is a hazard, especially to kids wandering in there - especially in that lovely upscale Bronx neighborhood. When I went on my walking tour 25 years ago, I was with 5 other people. I knew that if we encountered a street gang, we'd be gonners. We were 6, but we were unarmed. The tunnel was sealed, but being cornered at either of the stations was a distinct possibility.
From
It was a stroke of luck that the tunnel was accessible to us. No definate chance that the tunnel wil be accessible in a month. Next time, I'm bringing extra batteries, and my lantern....
-Hank
YES BRING FLASHLIGHTS!!!
Amazing the group of us with only three flash lights were able to transverse both tunnels. It was a fantastic trip, worth doing with more light.
More flashlights would have been a good idea. I didn't have one because we had planned other stops through the day and I didn't want to have to carry it along. However, I was the last one through the tunnel towards Jerome-Anderson without a light because I got a late start going down the hill, and I was able to walk through rather easily with just the light from the group way ahead of me.
[More flashlights would have been a good idea. I didn't have one because we had planned other stops through the day and I didn't want to have to carry it along.]
When I did the Bay Ridge Walking Tour I made sure I had a flashlight holster to keep my hands free. It came in handy since my light was one of those Telephone Lineman types that is extra long and very intense (about the size of an NYPD Mag-light).
You can get a 'flashlight holster' for about $5 at most Army & Navy or Uniformed Services stores.
Doug aka BMTman
12/20/99
Or we could individually invest in one of those helmets with the lights mounted on them like the coal miners use. Wow! This is really getting serious.
Bill Newkirk
Or we could individually invest in one of those helmets with the lights mounted on them like the coal miners use. Wow! This is really getting serious.
Bill Newkirk
Radio shack sells a flashlight on an elastic headband. Its a lot lighter, and cheaper too.
From
Lou, were there any track, messenger cables or signals in the tunnel. Get any pictures.
were there any track, messenger cables or signals in the tunnel?
One rail was found.
I didn't see messenger cables. Then again, I'm not sure what there are.
No tunnel lights at al, though the wiring conduits along the walls could be seen.
There were 8 signals counted. 6 of them were still where they were when service ended. 2 of them were lying on the trackbed. All were in various states of rust-through. No bulbs. Lenses broken.
There were the remains of about 6 automobiles in there. It looks like Rocky's Chop Shop was doing some good business. How they even GOT in there is a mystery to me.
--Mark
I did see something like old telegraph type wire holders hanging from the top of the tunnel on the shared wall side of the west tunnel. No wires between them though. Agian with more light we could have made a better investigation of the tunnel. I even wanted to see the condition of the ballast from why back when.
There is more water damage to the west tunnel (the one sealed up0 IMHO and has active water dripping/running in it (we hope it was water).
12/20/99
I didn't bring a flashlight and I have a lantern too. I thought the tunnel was blocked off and was just there to photograph the Sedgewick platforms so I didn't figure to bring one.
I just thought of an idea. I someone brought a really heavy duty rope and attached it to the overhead highway sign pole, that would assist in scaling down and up the incline, just like a mountain climber. Unless we could find a easier access like I mentioned before.
Bill Newkirk
12/20/99
If Polo Grounds Tour II takes place, all those who didn't make the first one kindly note the following.
1) EVERYBODY bring a flashlight, or even better a lantern.
2) Wear rugged shoes, no sneakers
3) Don't wear the best of clothes, wear something you would change your oil or visit a tunnel with!
4) Dress warmly since it would be January and that's a cold month, tunnel or not. Work gloves a must!
5) When walking the tunnel, providing it isn't sealed up by then, you'll probably be fascinated walking a tunnel that Manhattan EL and flivvers once transversed. Look down too, watch your step! Plenty of tripping hazards.
6) Be prepared to climb up and down catwalks. This tour not for those with walking impediments.
Other than that, you'll have a great time. We didn't encounter any tunnel dwellers so it's best to have a goods turn out. I wouldn't do this by myself. I was there, now on January 16, you be there, if you can!
Bill Newkirk
To that I would add this:
I would caution anyone doing the trip in January:
--Extreme caution is advised when descending/ascending, especially descending, the steep hill between the walkway over the Deegan and the Sedgwick Avenue platform. This hill is not meant for people to be clambering up and down.
The hill is steep and has a lot of rubble and exposed brush that can easily trip you up. You face a risk of a sprained ankle if you're not carfeul. In addition, the Metro North tracks, complete with speeding trains and a live third rail, are beneath the hill. If you make a false move and pitch down the hill, you face danger from the fall and from the tracks. This trip is NOT for those who are not sure-footed.
Just a word to the wise...
In additon to Kevin's wise words by January the ground may be frozen and not has "giving" as it was Sunday.
12/20/99
Kevin and Lou,
I was just thinking. How did those cars get into the tunnel? Maybe there is a less steep way of entering this area with injury. Those cars had to be driven there somehow, maybe if we research this route, the 1/16/00 tour would be simpler for all.
Bill Newkirk
I'll check it out before the 16th......Mark
Good thought. We could all do with a little less mountain climbing and descending.
Trip info is now posted in the "Upcoming events" section. See you all on the 16th.......Mark W.
January 16th is duly recorded on my calendar!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Phew! I'm still tired! Nothing like getting down and dirty (literally) in the Bronx. Great turnout; probably would have been more people if not for some probable last minute Christmas shopping. This was a very fascinating part of town overlooked by many, including myself whizzing by on the Deegan. You never know how much history you can find if you take a little time to look. Once I got used to the territory we were in, it was very surreal to imagine subway trains actually running through an area we were walking in.
I'll try to make the January encore, and this time I won't put my hood up after I come out. With all the dirt on my face, I was afraid any establishment with a bathroom would kick me out. Finally cleaned up my act at the Barnes & Noble on Astor Place. Nobody took a second look.
As somebody else said, it was impressive to see how many people were attracted from outside the website. There's no doubt NYCSUBWAY.ORG's reputation is growing.
I hope nobody got caught up in the Penn Station mess.
12/20/99
I can see it all now. Tomorrow morning, SubTalkers interested in the 1/16/00 Tour II head en masse to Abercombie & Fitch to outfit themselves to the point of climbing Pikes Peak !!
Bill Newkirk
Thanks to Harry and Nick I have two pictures of the R142A cars on the R142 Page.
-Dave
Well...they don't look like the ones at the mockup but there here!
but they're here. -={Correction}=-
I'm glad you were able to post the pictures. Hopefully some more pics of completed R142s and R142A will pop up on that page as the good folks of subtalk snap away. Just one note, you may want to correct the "Illustrated Subway Car Roster" page. There are now 5 images of the R142 instead of 3. Or perhpaps its time to seperate the R142 and R142A; your choice :) -Nick
> Just one note, you may want to correct the
> "Illustrated Subway Car Roster" page. There
> are now 5 images of the R142 instead of 3.
Reload it. That page is dynamically generated. You just have it cached.
-Dave
I got those pictures in e-mail. I think they are the R-142 (no A) at Fresh Pond Yard. That is what I was told. I saw them before the the R-142A was delivered at the time some Bombardier cars were here reportedly to test the delivery mechansims.
Well, I got them from two different sources both claiming they were the Kawasaki's. Can anyone independently verify which is which?
-Dave
David Pirmann:
Do you have any early photos of the R-142 subway cars?
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone & FAX (914)478-3454
check out the subway roster there are two new photos under the R-142 link.
Hey Dave,
If you can read this message, I received a similar picture of the Bombardier R142 (the picture that you have now) from a friend who told me the car was at Fresh Pond Yard, which was in mid-November. This is the same car that wound in Oak Point (Bronx) behind a local CSX freight. It can't be the Kawasaki's because the Kawasaki's arrived a week or so later at the Port in Newark.
The Caption Should Be Somewhat Like This: Bombardier R142, at NY and Atlantic Railway Fresh Pond Yard, Queens, 11/1999.
-Stef
Would anybody have any pic' of the 2nd ave. lines tunnel sections? I would love to see them!
Very soon I hope to send Dave images from the video I took in the 2nd Ave tunnel under the Confucious Houses apartment complex.
I'll let you know when I get to it. I want to write the Polo Grounds shuttle trip report first.
--Mark
You should ask the photographers.
I sent two pics that were taken in Fresh Pond Yard of R142s from Bombardier. In all the pics is the SAME BOXCAR. The photos are from Bernard Enge(?). In fact, one of the 2 pics I emailed in are at a wider angle.
-Hank
> You should ask the photographers.
I'd be glad to but I'm not sure who it is. Hank thinks Bernard Ente took them? Bernard if you're out there can you confirm that?
-Dave
And you'll have some more within 48 hours. I have 9 minutes of them on video at the Kawasaki plant before being loaded for transport to 239th St yard. I'll snap stills out of them and send them right over. Stay tuned.
--Mark
The R-142 are in Yonkers as we speak. They are set to arrive during the next week to the 239th street shop. There they will be tested for 6 months before entering into revenue service. The 239th Street shop has been overhauled in order to accomodate the new shipment. Don't expect to see any R-142's on the IRT until Summer 2000. The r-142's were supposed to arrive in September but the TA did not like the way they were built so improvements were made and the R-142's are finally here!!!
7216 is expected to be the first car delivered. Seen on the Kawasaki test track getting ready for transport were 7211, 7210, 7216 - 7220.
--Mark
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE R-110'S ON THE Q TRAIN LINE.
No 75' (or 67', unless the standards are brought back) cars belongs on the Brghton express. That's like using an AMC Gremlin to race in the Indy 500.
The 75' (22.86 meter) R-68 was used on the Q until late 1997. Those were the good old days.
As a Brighton Line Rider from the 1950's, R68's are not the good old days for me. In these recent days, I consider the rebuilt slants a welcome addition to the line --- not so much for their speed but mostly due to their unique appearance. They are refreshing to see, compared to the rather characterless 68's appearance.
As far as the other cars that skimmed the rails, we have the Triplexes which were certainly unique and a defining presence on the Brighton & Sea Beach. Certainly the original R-32 Budds were a welcome new face on the line. My own personal favorite almost equal to the Triplexes were the years the R 1/9's graced the rails with their very special air brake sounds and compressor sounds and toasty heaters under the seats.
A rather dark period was when the 44's or 46's rode the rails. As I remember, there was something either with the roadbed or about the cars themselves that caused damage to some homeowner's foundations along the way.
Of course, the Standards were the mainstay of the local service, but the Standards were never as much fun as the articulated jointed Triplexes.
Almost forgot the R-27's which were also somewhat lacking in character but held down the local runs.
I think I even remember some visiting R-10's running as D's.
If you are unfamiliar with some of the older equipment's presence on the Brighton, remember in 12 days on 1-1-2000, thanks to the seed pods currently growing, the entire face of mass transit will return to its glory days of the 1940's and 1950's. Maybe there should be a SubTalk ride sometime in the next week to ride the current equipment before it disappears. Get those pictures now of the R-142's, because they will never be seen again.
Heypaul,
You are mistaken.
The MTA not being Y2K compliant, the clock resets to 1/1/1900 in less than two weeks.
Get your Graflex cameras ready. I want to get a picture of trailers 80 and 100 before they're wrecked.
Paulpaul
And, as I stated earlier, would someone tell that BRT supervisor not to be in Hylan's way when his train comes roaring down the track.
[The MTA not being Y2K compliant, the clock resets to 1/1/1900 in less than two weeks.
Get your Graflex cameras ready. I want to get a picture of trailers 80 and 100 before they're wrecked.]
I'll volunteer to travel to Sarajevo and grab Gavrilo Princip's gun. Next week, we'll all be enjoying the ride on the Second Avenue subway.
While in Europe you might want to stop in a small town in Austria called Innsbruck. There's this one year old boy named Adolf who lives there. You could save millions of lives by throwing him in the Danube or something. Then you could do some railfanning on the Orient Express.
May some Gates Cars will be able to go to the race track in Sheapshead Bay, or how about a weekend Sat at Steeplechase and Sunday at Luna Park. All for $1.00 including car fare
Long live the Nickel empire!
--Mark
Better yet, please give Mr. Luciano additional training so he'll be more familiar with the Brighton line in case he has to run that train on 11/1/18.
No, those were the bad old days. I never knew how FAST trains could run on the Brighton exp. until the R40's took over 2 years ago. May they never leave.
I never knew how FAST trains could run on the Brighton exp. until the R40's took over 2 years ago. May they never leave.
But there was no thrill like a Triplex thundering down the express track from Avenue H to Newkirk.
It was rather like the feeling when you're on a 747 midway over the Atlantic and hearing the pilot to copilot over an open mike saying "What do you mean it was my job to check the fuel?!"
You were never quite sure the Triplex would ever stop that downward plunge.
Hmmm, so in terms of speed:
Triplex = SR71 Backbird
R40 = 747
R68 = Wright Bros. first airplane?
Hmmm, so in terms of speed:
Triplex = SR71 Backbird
R40 = 747
R68 = Wright Bros. first airplane?
R-68 = Tommy the Tortoise.
From
How about a Triplex from Kings Highway to Newkirk, FAAAASSSST
How about:
R-10 = GTO, Mustang, Camaro, or any other souped-up sports car of that era.
R-68 = somewhere between Tommy the Tortiose and Roger Bannister breaking the four-minute mile barrier.
Its hard to believe the R68 is made by the same company that makes the Ninja!!
The R-68A is made by Kawasaki. The R-68 is not.
The R-68 has better and more abundant seating. The speed differential adds little time to the trip.
Kowabunga (sp), dudes!!
The 75-footers would be welcome if only their field shunting could be restored. And if, of course, the R-68s could be flipped around so their half cabs would face out.
You would? Well since the Q runs 600' trains and there are just 6 R-110Bs @ 67' each, you have enough cars for 2/3 of one train. You sound like you should be working in 'Operations Planning'.
LOL. BTW, are the 3 cars used for "parts" beyond any hope of being used in revenue service? Doesn't that make the remaining R110B cars almost useless?
12/20/99
Chris R,
Don't say those cannablized R-110B's are useless! There is allways use for as roadside hot dog stand, with that 21st Century look !
Bill Newkirk
The concept of the R-110s was only to serve as a field test for technology that might be incorporated in the R-142 and R-143 contracts. To that end they have served their purpose. I suggested that the remainang R-110B be assigned to Franklin Shuttle duty but no one embraced the thought. I suspect that they both (A & B) will be permanently retired in the very near future.
Well, perhaps a unit of each (one car only) could be placed in the Transit Museum. It's just food for thought. Then again, farewell fantrips might be appropriate for the occassion. Is there anyone here who wants to buy a working train?
-Stef
Sorry for the typo!!! I posted too fast.
-Stef
Why not use them on the Rockaway shuttle?
Sounds like a good reason to have the "Farewell to the R-110A/B Fantrip" real soon.
Actually, there was one planned about 2 or 3 years ago - it was cancelled because of equipment problems.
--Mark
That's almost worth a rim shot.
I cant believe the'd scrap these cars. They cost millions of $$$. Scrapping them becuasue they are incompatible with other cars seems like a total waste of money.
Put em on the Franklin Shuttle. They'd live out their lives like another ancestor test train, the R11. Extend the platforms to fit 201' trains. Those computerized conductor announcements are ideal for a total OPTO line like the FS. And the electronic signs means people who race to catch a train at the single track in the Park Place station can read which direction the train is going.
I cant believe the'd scrap these cars. They cost millions of $$$. Scrapping them becuasue they are incompatible with other cars seems like a total waste of money.
Put em on the Franklin Shuttle. They'd live out their lives like another ancestor test train, the R11. Extend the platforms to fit 201' trains. Those computerized conductor announcements are ideal for a total OPTO line like the FS. And the electronic signs means people who race to catch a train at the single track in the Park Place station can read which direction the train is going.
The R-11 was another train that shouldn't have been scrapped. That would have made a nice museum train, along with the Zephyr.
From
The 10 R11 cars were completely rebuilt in 1965 so they were compatible with other cars, most notably the R16. Less than 8 years later, they were scrapped. Why spend the money to rebuild a car when you don't even plan to use them long? Those cars could have lasted as long as the R10's did, well into the 80's.
The 10 R11 cars were completely rebuilt in 1965 so they were compatible with other cars, most notably the R16. Less than 8 years later, they were scrapped. Why spend the money to rebuild a car when you don't even plan to use them long? Those cars could have lasted as long as the R10's did, well into the 80's.
Being rebuilt in 1965, they could have still been running. They were Budd's like the R-32's.
From
Well today they'd be 50 years old. That might be pushing the envelope a bit.
Well today they'd be 50 years old. That might be pushing the envelope a bit.
I would go with the 1965 date. They went through an extensive overhaul. They even had a new contract number - R-34. Besides, wasn't it you who said that you expect the R-32's to be running on their 50th anniversary? I'd say a good guess for both (if the R-11's weren't scrapped) would be 45-50 years. If anything, they should have kept the experimental oddball R-11's around as a museum train. Those can last indefinately.
From
True, but to ask a subway car to last 50 years is asking too much. But I see no reason why the R11 had to be scrapped so soon after it's rebuild. If the same thing was done to the R38's, they'd have been sent to scrap 2 years ago.
They were in service until 1981, which means SIXTEEN years.
I stand corrected, the cars were removed from service in 1976, which means only 11 years.
Less than 8 years later, they were scrapped. Why spend the money to rebuild a car when you don't even plan to use them long?
Didn't the same thing happen to the R-27/R-30s?
--Mark
They weren't as extensivley rebuilt as some of their GOH'ed companions, like the R32 or 40. Besides a nice paint job, I don't think they were rebuilt at all. The R11 was totally rebuilt.
I think a decade or so of extra use after rehab is pretty typical of a lot of equipment.
A good chunk of the BMT Standards (2400-2799) were rebuilt around 1959-60 to be scrapped less than a decade later.
But consider ... even though people keep cars longer than they did three or four decades ago (because they're better made) a decade is a pretty long run for an automobile.
But consider ... even though people keep cars longer than they did three or four decades ago (because they're better made) a decade is a pretty long run for an automobile
My 1990 Toyota Corolla is 10 years old. I bought it right before Thanksgiving in 1989. She's still running great at 86,000 miles. So's my wife's '91 Corolla with 116,000 miles. We're going to keep both until they're ready for the junkyard. Hopefully, that won't be for another 10 years. I have a good mechanic. He's honest and he races, so we know he's good.
From
My Jeep will be celebrating 12 years since I drove it off the dealer's lot on January 16. By tomorrow, it will have reached 380,000 miles on the original engine, which is still oiltight and still runs smooth as silk. The whole key is taking care of it. Subway cars fall into that same category. Keep putting off maintenance, and you'll shorten its life.
My Jeep will be celebrating 12 years since I drove it off the dealer's lot on January 16. By tomorrow, it will have reached 380,000 miles on the original engine, which is still oiltight and still runs smooth as silk. The whole key is taking care of it. Subway cars fall into that same category. Keep putting off maintenance, and you'll shorten its life.
That's a fact. Hey, look at all those 1950's cars in Cuba that are still running.
From
The question remains: where do they get parts for those cars, if they can be obtained at all?
The question remains: where do they get parts for those cars, if they can be obtained at all?
My assumption is that they do a lot of cannibalizing, they probably keep rebuilding worn parts (engines, transmissions, etc.), and maybe they even adapt the cars to accept newer parts. It is a fact. Go to Havanna and you'll be in a time warp. They have all of our old 50's cars plus the newer Russian cars.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Besides being a fan of transit I've also got this thing about Edsels, so consequently I'm always trolling the web (eBay, other auction sites, and several Edsel news pages) for tidbits of Edsel history. Last fall there was a 1960 Edsel wagon offered for sale that had been in Cuba until about 1997 (it's now in Canada). The vehicle was being sold "as-is, where-is", and noted that it while it still had the original 292 V-8, it had been converted to burn methanol and the original automatic transmission had been replaced with a standard transmission from a Russian-made military truck. The vehicle was originally part of the Canadian embassy's fleet and later saw service as a taxi before being sold to a Canadian collector and re-exported. He had intended to restore it but apparently is deceased as the vehicle was being offered by his estate.
One of these day's I'll have one; anybody know of a nice original '58 Bermuda with a 361 and factory air?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Edsel?? One of my favorite old cars was the American answer to the VW Beetle, the Chevy Corvair!!
Hey Jeff do you remember the Nash Rambler Metropolitan??
I remember it beat the Cadillac in the song!!
Beep, Beep.
Remember the last line in that song?: "Hey, buddy, how do get this car out of second gear?" At 120 mph?!?
12/29/99
"Beep Beep" by The Playmates. Released November 10,1958 on Roulette #4115, charted 12 weeks reached #4 on the charts. Group was from Waterbury Connecticut.
For your imformation..........of course!
Bill Newkirk
Record collector
Must be a CBS 101.1 listener!! Got it on right now!!!
... with a bullet :)
--Mark
That's the second instance in which a rock group from a neighboring town put out a song which charted. I lived in Cheshire, which borders Waterbury, for 4 1/2 years in the 70s, so it wasn't at the same time Beep Beep came out. That's also what the slant R-40s on the Q say to every lumbering D train they pass, BTW. A la the Road Runner.
The other instance is different. Tommy James and the Shondells were originally from Niles, Michigan, just across the state line from South Bend, and when they recorded Hanky Panky in 1963, I was still living there.
I know this is getting off-topic, but did you know that TJ&S turned down an invitation to play at Woodstock? Oi vay!!
12/29/99
Maybe with Dave's (Pirmann) blessing we'll start a new Web B.B.
We'll call it RockTalk!!
Bill Newkirk
You must have loved American Graffiti.
Once in a great while I'll see an Edsel or that famous product from my hometown, a Studebaker.
My aunt has an 86 Chevy station wagon. Bought it used in 1988 with only 20,000 miles on it. She's since reset the odometer for the 3rd time (that means she's put 300,000 on it in the last 11 years).
That baby's still going strong.
Good for her! My Jeep has a 7-digit odometer, and so it actually displays 380,000+ miles. I'd have to put a million miles on it before the odometer rolled over. We'll see if it makes it that far.
MTA are not very smart about putting R110B on Frankin Shuttle & all they think is wasting $$$$$. MTA should put R110B on Frankin Shuttle & keep #3001-#3003, #3004-#3006, #3007-#3009 & scrap #3002, #3005 & #3008 or used for work cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
12/21/99
If anybody remembers, a few months back when this subject on the R-110's first appeared I suggested overhauling them. Rip out the computers and make the 110A's similar to the R-62's and the 110B's similar to the R-68's. Then put them out to pasture on the 42nd St (110A's) and Franklin (110B's) shuttles. Even if it was solely to test new technologies, it would be a crime to scrap them when they are fairly new. Remember the UMTA/USDOT "gas turbine" cars on the LIRR and (pre) Metro North ? Scrapped, they weren't cheap, but they were silently scrapped before anybody could know that $$$$ was being flushed.
And now the LIRR C-1 bi-levels are up for sale. No railroad would buy them. They are so oddball and high level platform only. Of course if some outsiders would invest money in them, they can be overhauled and rewired to run with the C-3's and become a new generation parlor car with luxury seating on the upper level and bar on lower level. But that's never going to happen so look forward to seing the C-1's and R-110A's and 1110B's across the river at Sarnelli's.
Bill Newkirk
The R-110B would be harder, but the R-110 can be overhauled and made to MU with with the R-142, it can even look and "feel" the same (and not like 1575).
No thats not going to haappen according to what I hear The 100's arr going to the eastern divison L,J,M,Z Lines. Probilly the Slants will be replace with R40m, and R42,s.
The plan as of today is to put whatever Eastern division R40M/R42 cars that get displaced by the R143 on the N line.
According to "At Your Service", MTA-NYCT Employee Newsletter for November 1999, here are some highlights for Subway & Commuter Rail Projects. Purchase of 1130 subway cars. 927 cars would be replaced while the fleet would grow by 203 cars. Part of the 1130 cars would be 320 IRT cars to replace the remaining Redbirds after the 142/142A's are all in service...... $700 million for completion of enviornmental work, design and the beginning of tunnel work for the Second Ave. subway (no smirking please LOL)...... $645 million for the N to LaGuardia Airport. For this, preliminary engineering would be completed along with final design & construction of all off-airport structure......A $44 million check was given to the MTA from the Federal Government for initial work (design & initial construction) on the LIRR East Side Access Project. However, no mention was made in the article if any MTA money was earmarked in this 5 year capital plan.....$75 million for evaluation, planning, design & engineering of MNCRR Penn Station Access (where will they fit these trains?), extension of the #7 to the Javits Center & Lower Manhattan Commuter Railroad Access....$1.28 billion for rehabilitation of 64 subway stations. Included are $175 million for phase 2 of the Times Square complex, $74 million for rehabilitation of 74/Roosevelt and another $74 million for rehabilitation of Lex/53 St. Bus purchases listed on BusTalk.
$74M (that's $74,000,000.00) for LEX-53rd Street!!!! I had no idea the leaks were THAT bad! Based on THAT tab, I can't begin to imagine what it's going to cost to renovate Chambers Street BMT, which needs it more than any other station in the entire system. That is, if it is deemed repairable.
Did they mention the plan to convert the Nassau Street line to two-track operation?
Wayne
Looks like they're buying us off with studies AGAIN! Damn it, the 2nd Avenue subway already had an EIS, design, engineering, and beginning construction! And if they design it themselves, rather than doing it design-build, they'll get murdered on the change orders.
What's the sense of designing things when the MTA will be too deep in debt to build them in 2005.
FRAUD! If it ain't built, its bull.
[Looks like they're buying us off with studies AGAIN! Damn it, the 2nd Avenue subway already had an EIS, design, engineering, and beginning construction! And if they design it themselves, rather than doing it design-build, they'll get murdered on the change orders.
What's the sense of designing things when the MTA will be too deep in debt to build them in 2005.
FRAUD! If it ain't built, its bull.]
I think you hit the head on the nail. Or however that goes. Looks like there's about a billion dollars here allocated to not building things . . . impressive.
What we really need to do is take another $1 or 2 billion from useless expenditures. Nah, scratch that, we really need to privatize the whole mess; it took all the City could do to *stop* the private companies from building new lines before Hylan and his successors drove them out of business, and since 1941 all they've done is yack.
The truth of the matter is,the T.A. IS AN OUTDATED AUTHORITY.For the last 30 to 40 years[maybe more] they've done nothing but TALK, PLAN,DISCUSS,DRAFT,TALK AND TALK SOMEMORE. Take a look at the so called 1968 PLAN FOR ACTION[RAPID TRANSIT EXPANSTION].Out of 11 routes proposed,only 2 were even remotly finished[if half-way' finished is what you call complete]. They remine me of the children story "THE LITTLE ENGINE THAT COULDN'T!!!
[The truth of the matter is,the T.A. IS AN OUTDATED AUTHORITY.For the last 30 to 40 years[maybe more] they've done nothing but TALK, PLAN,DISCUSS,DRAFT,TALK AND TALK SOMEMORE. Take a look at the so called 1968 PLAN FOR ACTION[RAPID TRANSIT EXPANSTION].Out of 11 routes proposed,only 2 were even remotly finished[if half-way' finished is what you call complete]. They remine me of the children story "THE LITTLE ENGINE THAT COULDN'T!!!]
Amen to that!
If they're going to spend 74M on Lexington Avenue, then they'd better do a damn good job of waterproofing or else they'll wind up with the same mess they have at the recently-rehabbed lower level of 5th Avenue station, which, of course, is but a sieve, with leaks galore and peeling paint off of the (untiled) wall. It's not a pretty sight.
Wayne
Today I met up with a few of the guys who went on the Polo Grounds Shuttle tour. Unfortunately I didn't actually on the tour but I stoopped by to meet a few friends. I also met David Shanske and Mark Feinman who I had dinner with. After dinner only 4 of of remained, including Mark W. & Mark Feinman, and we went up to 239th Street Yard to see if the new 142s had been delivered. When we arrived there were only redbirds and a train of R110s.
Disappointed, we decided to take a drive over to the Kawasaki plant over in nearby Yonkers. When we arrived, we saw the 142s sitting there gradually being moved to be placed flatbeds. While we were watching, about 3 or 4 Amtrak trains just released from Penn came up the Hudson line beside the plant.
For those of you who have never seen a 142 "in the flesh", I'll tell you something- you really aren't much. The 142s basically look like 62s from the side, only the signs are electronic and the windows/doors are a bit different. The fronts have a Redbird-like shape to them with red near the headlights and an electronic Cyclops-looking space for the # like the 32s have on top. The doors at each end of the cars are two doors instead of one for wheelchair access. But honestly, would you really push a wheelchair through a moving subway while in the tunnel? What I found half amusing/half ridiculous was that on the sides of the new cars there were these stripes changing from red to silver to symbolize the ending of the Redbird era and a transition into the era of the 142s. Nice intention, but I still think I prefer the Redbirds over the 142s anyday!
Hey The Days of rail running are over. Ever since I was young I all ways loved to look out the front of the train's I can Hardly remember R21,and22's and I never Saw an R10 or R12 so the Younger RedBirds are all I know . Seeing the battered R26's and the Little Better R33's takes back to the days of the summer of 1992 the I first set out on a RailRun I feel a big long with them leaving. And the Think about I never Saw a R30....... Well Id like a RedBird over a TechLiner(110a-142a) Anyday I will miss them!
AceGales
<<Nice intention, but I still think I prefer the Redbirds over the 142s anyday!>>
You've never been in a R-142! How can you judge?
Based on past history. Each new generation of subway cars seems to be worse than the last. I think "new technology" and the subway system aren't 2 things that go together.
I also wonder how "slow" these cars will be. Can they be worse than the R68? I think they will, knowing the MTA.
Can they be worse than the R68? I think they will, knowing the MTA.
I hope not. As for Bombardier, their 01800 series red line cars are better than the 01500-01700 series, so there is some hope. -Nick
One addition: I meant Boston's red line cars; sorry for any confusion!
So that means that the R-27 and each subsequent car is worse than the R-16? really? Or that the R-62 has a lower MDBF than the Rustbirds?
Cars have improved over time, even just looking at past history:
Air Conditioning
Stainless Steel
No Straphangers
Front/back facing bucket seats
Large number or letter up front
Digital displays inside announcing time and stops (110)
AC traction (110)
Airbag suspension (110)
It seems to me that railfans are generally afraid of new technology (I don't mean that as an insult). Perhaps because when you look at something with admiration and reverence, any change in it could harm that balance. If one's love for the subway was born riding a Redbird, one would not be able to feel the same way without them. So many people hate the 75 foot cars because they were new and put away the R-7/9 or R-16 and R-27/30. I began to enjoy the subway on the R-46, so that will always be an important car for me.
It's been documented that each new subway car is less and less popular with railfans. Part of it is nostalgia. Part of it has to do with asthetics. Hey, the R40 was disliked when it was new, but now it's loved. Perhaps in 20 years we will all talk about our love for those old fashioned R68's.
I'll wager that the "Slants" were the most despised vehicle in subway history when new. NOT SO TODAY
I'll wager that the "Slants" were the most despised vehicle in subway history when new. NOT SO TODAY
True. That's because they're old now.
From
It's been documented that each new subway car is less and less popular with railfans. Part of it is nostalgia. Part of it has to do with asthetics. Hey, the R40 was disliked when it was new, but now it's loved. Perhaps in 20 years we will all talk about our love for those old fashioned R68's.
The R-40 was a major departure from the familiar car body that was so common, beginning with the R-16's and ending with the R-38's. As for the R-68's, yeah, I can just see it - railfans paying big bucks for a ticket for the Farewell To The Hippos Fan Trip! You know for a fact that railfans will pay a premium for the Farewell To The Slants Fan Trip. That would have been inconceivable 30 years ago. I have to confess, I was one of the R-40 haters after the novelty of the cars being different from everything else wore off. One thing I will never get used to is full-width cabs. I always liked the front window. If the TA had to go to full-width cabs, they could have at least made the window in the front door railfan-friendly, and added a front-facing seat on the left side with a window that is also railfan-friendly. BTW, I just described the Miami Metrorail cars. The only difference is that the T/O sits on the right side and the railfan seat is on the left side.
From
Even if the put in a little window through the cab, the motormen will probably just put newspaper up like they do now. It is amazing that even on the R-44's and 46's with the tinted windows on the doors, the motormen feel the need to put up newspaper so we can't see in.
For the riding public the R-40s (well, half of them anyway) had what they would consider the most important innovation in subway cars in their lifetimes, air conditioning. So from that angle, the disdain some may have had for them would have ended on a hot July day the moment the doors opened they walked into the cool air.
Poll riders on any line, and I'll bet the metal bars, forward facing seats, or anything else mentioned earlier would come in a distant second to the addition of AC beginning officially with the R-40s arrival (Those 10 R-38 being just the test trains, the same way the R-110s were the test trains for the R-142 and R-143)
If they were to restore field shunting to the R-68s (and let's face it - those cars need it desperately), then yeah, maybe there might be some tugging at the heart strings. Otherwise, unh-uh. Not for me, anyway.
Yes, that's the Redbird-colored pinstripe I also noticed on the side of the body.
It seems to be made of that material that changes colors when exposed to light.
It is a nice touch, but how long until the pinstripe starts getting scratched and peeled off by the "wonderful" vandals that inhabit this city of ours?
Before I post this new update to metrocard.cjb.net, I would like to know what people think of
the way the table is laid out. Should I keep the table on the homepage or move it to it's own page? Should I keep the
bullets or should I switch to a textual description? Finally, how do you think
I should display the station names?
Before I post this new update to metrocard.cjb.net, I would like to know what people think of
the way the table is laid out. Should I keep the table on the homepage or move it to it's own page? Should I keep the
bullets or should I switch to a textual description? Finally, how do you think
I should display the station names?
In my opinion, there is too little content on the site to put the table on its own page. The bullets are fine. I think text would only confuse people. The TA doesnt use text when referring to a line. At station entrances, you don't see text names of the lines served at the stations, only bullets of the letters and/or numbers of the lines at those stations. Station names are OK. I think you should have a title for your table on top.
From
No one on the bus board has answered, so I'll ask over here. What service is being added for New Years Eve?
While the focus is on Times Square, if we go anywhere, we'll go up to Grand Army Plaza for the Brooklyn Millenium celebration. But it's a long walk in the cold with a five and seven year old who usually go to bed at 8:30. Driving won't work -- the closest parking space will probably be near by house, a 25 minute walk away. And the subway situation is not good: F to R at 4th Avenue to 2/3 at Pacific, with a possible 20 minute wait for each train?
Bus? The Plaza, and many of the streets around it will shut down. So what will happen to bus service? The B41 and B69, along with the Union Street bus, will be cut off? So what's the plan? Will it run in two sections? Is there ANY chance that they will have enough staff on hand to keep a schedule?
As it happens, a B69 bus is schedule to leave at 12:20, and another at 12:40, from Union Street and Prospect Park West heading back to Windsor Terrace. Any chance that bus will be there?
(This would be a good time to run "specials" from the point nearest the action direct to different neighborhoods, with flyers annoucing the times in routes handed out at the event, but I guess the MTA has had other things on its mind for the past month).
If you are lucky the MTA will post the bus diversions and changes at -
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/bus/bussrvno.htm#brooklyn
It looks like the whole northern end of Park Slope is going to be a frozen traffic zone that night. According to the Daily News, the NYPD was going to try and restrict vehicular access to the area.
(Check the MTA site for service diversions)
I checked for diversions at the MTA site and did not see any. Perhaps they'll post them next week. You'd think that they would have made plans by now, even having a whole advertizing section and flyer.
MTA website is awful, the diversions section seems to be the only one that is updated - when they feel like it. The NYCDOT site, which is updated weekly may have information as we get closer to 12/31/1999. -
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/html/whatsnew/whatsnew.html
Larry --
I haven't seen anything in print yet about what the subways or buses are doing. There was some discussion here recently that all trains would stop in the stations a few minutes before midnight so that they wouldn't be in the tunnels in the event of a Y2K power outage, but I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere either.
If the LIRR is any indication of what the MTA is doing, you should have extra service. The LIRR is running a "second rush hour" with 60 or so extra inbound trains on New Years Eve and then 30 or so extra trains returning after midnight. The details just appeared on the website in the last couple of days.
Hopefully, the TA is planning similar increases in service. What's the point of having an event like the one in Prospect Park if families can't get there or get home? Have you tried to call the customer info number yet? I haven't seen anything on the website, though.
(note: the extra LIRR service does include stops at the stations in Queens, so we won't need to rekindle the discussion of whether the LIRR is screwing their Queens riders!)
Chuck
For New Year's Eve and overnight, San Francisco is converting almost everything to bus operation, including the cable cars and trolley bus routes. I think there's a Muni Metro shuttle planned, but only in the underground sections. I'm doing this from memory based on information a friend sent--I mislaid the SF site address.
This New Year's marks a first in New York--the first New Year's since around at least 1920 that no one will be able to take an express home from Times Square after the celebrations.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
All flights into Denver Int'l Airport will arrive at Concourse A after 10 PM or thereabouts on Dec. 31. There is a skybridge connecting Concourse A with the main terminal, so if the trains break down due to a Y2K glitch, people won't be stranded.
My wife and I would like to go see Rockerfeller Center and Macy's for Christmas. We are staying in N.J. I know enough to cross the George Wasington Bridge and get on the Henry Hudson Parkway. Is there a place were we could park the car and take the subway downtown to Rockerfeller Center, if so which train?
Thanks,
Mike & Vicki
Well, first let me suggest taking mass transit all the way. Traffic in Manhattan has been and will continue to be an absolute zoo until well after January 1st. New Jersey Transit has buses to Port Authority Bus Terminal (41st and 8th) and trains to Penn Station (33rd and 7th) which are not long walks from Rockefeller Ctr.
If you're going to drive in, I'd suggest getting off the Henry Hudson at 79th street. Head for 83rd street between Columbus and Amsterdam, where there are 3 or 4 parking garages. (from 79th street it's left on Amsterdam, right on 84th, right on Columbus and then another right onto 83rd).
You can walk from there to the 81st Street/Museum of Natural History station (corner of Central Park West) and catch the B train down to Rockefeller Center (4th stop - 72nd, 59th, 7th Ave, Rock Ctr.). If you walk along 83rd street you'll go right past my place (can you stop in and feed my cats?).
Enjoy your visit,
Chuck
As an addendum, if you time your arrival to be a little before 2:00 on any day except Wednesday you may easily find parking on the street. Street cleaning limits parking to one side of the street between 11 and 2. Starting at about 1:30 or so, people move back into the empty spaces and sit in their cars reading the newspaper until 2:01.
Chuck
[Well, first let me suggest taking mass transit all the way. Traffic in Manhattan has been and will continue to be an absolute zoo until well after January 1st. New Jersey Transit has buses to Port
Authority Bus Terminal (41st and 8th) and trains to Penn Station (33rd and 7th) which are not long walks from Rockefeller Ctr.]
Charles, I'll agree with the first part of your comments, but not the second:
1. Mass transit is the way to go this time of year. You'll most likely NOT have a good time trying to drive in.
2. PORT at 8th & 41st NOR Penn Stn at 8th & 33rd are not walking distance for Rockefella Center at 5th & 49/50 Street.
Last week I took LIRR to Penn Stn. around the corner is Macy's, then the 6th Ave IND or M7 bus will take you uptown. I suggest the train, as I took the bus and it too got stuck in traffic late AM.
also visit
- St. Patrick's Church at 5th & 50th
- FAO Schwartz at 757 5th Ave & 58th
- Lord & Taylor at 424 5th
- Saks 5th Ave at 611 5th
- Times Sq ... see where the ball will be comming down (7th & 42nd)
P.S. Do Macy's LAST as all the school kids are their AM. It took about 40 min after the kids went back to school & Santa had more time to spend with you.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T --
I guess we have different opinions as to what constitutes "walking distance". You're probably right in this case -- especially if they're bringing kids along.
I don't usually mind walking 2 miles or even a bit more, especially if there's something to see along the way. But then again, I'm not quite normal in that regard!!
I hope our visitors didn't choose today to go see the tree. The weather's miserable.
Chuck
[I guess we have different opinions as to what constitutes "walking distance". You're probably right in this case -- especially if they're bringing kids along.]
Chuck, I was thinking the same as I was writing my reply ! I have walked from Macy's up 5th Ave to Rockefella Center, then over to Times Square, but then a subway back to 34th. It was a LONG walk, but many of the windows along the way make it a pleasent one.
P.S. I forgot to mention:
- Hot chestnuts or a bagle from a push cart
- Broadway Theaters are just North of Times Sq. (great places to eat)
- TA Museum store at Times Square ... and
- Lots of cheep electronics at all those stores that are always going out of business at Times Square. Bought my son a watch one year and it worked for a while after Christmas.
Manhattan is great place to visit this time of year. Make it even better by including a ride on a Slant 40 or a Red Bird.
Mr t__:^)
You forgot Tiffany's snowflake at 57 and 5. Another nice sight that many people don't know about is the tree in the lobby of the Metlife(Pan AM) building. If you get there a few days before Christmas it is surrounded by toys donated by the companies in the building.
Following is the first installment of a list of station lengths on the Independent Subway System as originally plotted when first opened. Unless otherwise noted, all length info as to each station is universal. In this list, I provide the information on the station lengths of the first IND route which opened in 1932, the Washington Heights – 8th Avenue line from 207th Street to what is now the World Trade Center:
207th Street [terminus] : start 1534+45, end 1541+05
Dyckman-200th Street : start 1512+15, end 1518+75
190th Street-Overlook Terrace : start 1481+05, end 1487+65
181st Street : start 1454+20, end 1460+80
175th Street-George Washington Bridge Bus Station : start 1436+15, end 1442+75
168th Street-Broadway : start 1410+20, end 1416+80
163rd Street-Amsterdam Avenue : start 1393+35, end 1399+35
155th Street : start 1372+45, end 1378+45
145th Street : start 1350+15, end 1356+75 [C1/3 platform end 1356+15]
135th Street : start 1323+00, end 1329+00
125th Street : start 1295+15, end 1301+75
116th Street : start 1271+15, end 1277+15
110th Street-Cathedral Parkway : start 1252+35, end 1258+35
103rd Street : start 1233+65, end 1239+65
96th Street : start 1215+15, end 1221+30
86th Street : start 1191+15, end 1197+15
81st Street-Museum of Natural History : A1 platform start 1172+45, end 1178+45; A2 platform start 1172+45, end 1178+75
72nd Street : start 1148+45, end 1154+45
59th Street-Columbus Circle : start 1117+95, end 1124+55
50th Street : A1 platform start 1095+15, end 1101+85; A2 platform start 1095+15, end 1101+80; D3 & D4 platforms start 1092+30, end 1098+90
42nd Street : A1/A3 platform start 1069+00, end 1075+60; A2/A4 platform start 1074+55, end 1081+15
34th Street-Penn Station : A1, A2 platforms start 1050+80, end 1057+40; A3 platform start 1051+25, end 1057+85; A4 platform start 1051+85, end 1058+45
23rd Street : start 1024+45, end 1031+05
14th Street : start 1003+55, end 1010+15
West 4th Street-Washington Square : A1/A3 platform start 969+25, end 975+85; A2/A4 platform start 969+25, end 976+05; B1/B3 and B2/B4 platforms start 959+00, end 965+60 [southernmost end of B platforms commence 90 ft. north of southernmost end of A platforms]
Spring Street : start 945+50, end 952+10
Canal Street-Holland Tunnel : A2/A4 platform start 923+90, end 930+50; A1/A3 platform start 926+10, end 932+70
Chambers Street (station) : start 898+25, end 904+85
Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center) [terminus] : start 892+00, end 898+70
In my next installment: Station platform lengths of the Queens Boulevard route from 179th Street to 7th Avenue-53rd Street.
If I could just bother you guys with 2 questions real quick.....
1. A couple of months ago, we posted some threads on how the TA was testing a new plastic film for the windows that could be removed and replaced once scratched. How are the tests going. It seems every time a destination sign on the #4 is scratched, the next day it is clear. Could they be using it here? Will they Use it on the R-142?
2. Looking at the early pictures of the R-142, and from what I could see from the Metro North Yonkers Station, the R-142 looks to have a strange door system for walking between cars. Will this be allowed when the show up, or are the pictures just of Cabs???
Thanks
Fred
Well as to #2 the double doors are ADA compliant so a wheelchair can pass between cars. Only use outside of an emergancy is for your everyday begger rolling between cars if you ask me. Yah I know about South ferry and first 5 cars but even in a wheelchair it is safer to use the paltform to move up past the c/o position IMHO.
There is a lot that has to be done for ABR (Architectural Barrier Removal) become ADA compliant. We have had to replace Panic Bars (Emergancy Exit Lock Devices) because they required a downward preasure to open and someone in a wheelchair can not do that. Brand new devices had to be scrapped for a push in type model.
We had some excitement today heading westbound at the Millbourne Station. As we pulled in our operator saw a dog on the tracks (I was at the railfan window). The dog jumped over to the eastbound tracks which allowed us to pull into the station at the correct marker. Our operator got off along with a supervisor who was riding with us and tried to grab the dog before we had "3rd rail fried pooch". Then a westbound train came around the bend and the "supervisor" waved him down to stop just short of the station. Finally, after a 3rd SEPTA employee joined the chase they got the dog up onto the eastbound platform. The pooch made his escape under the turnstiles - didn't even pay his fare said the police who also showed up! The layout of the Millbourne station invites this sort of thing to happen quite easily. Just like SEPTA doesn't have enough problems with the $51 million suit where the little boy lost his foot in a escalator!
Chuck Greene
There was an ugly incident in March of 91 with a stray dog being hit and critically injured by an A train in upper Manhattan. The dispatcher knew of the dog, yet didn't stop trains because he thought it wasn't worth delaying the subway. The uproar caused the motorman so much grief that he actually needed police protection at his home.
There was an ugly incident in March of 91 with a stray dog being hit and critically injured by an A train in upper Manhattan. The dispatcher knew of the dog, yet didn't stop trains because he thought it wasn't worth delaying the subway. The uproar caused the motorman so much grief that he actually needed police protection at his home.
That was the dispatcher's fault, not the motorman's. How stupid can people get, blaming the motorman for running over the dog. They can't even stop in time when there's a human being on the tracks. I guess those morons don't care if a person gets hit, only when a dog does.
From
The story, as related in brackets below, was what the Post and animal rights activists wanted people to believe. What REALLY happened (and I saw the reports from what was then called the Command Center) was that service was suspended. A search was undertaken for the dog. It was spotted several times, but every time a searcher got near, the dog hid. Eventually, it was reasoned that the dog would not allow itself to be removed, and so the searchers gave up. Right after the OK was given to resume service, the dog darted in front of a train and was hit. The Post reporter named the dog "Token" posthumously. You'd be surprised how many people called NYCT Headquarters that day and over the following days about this incident, and how many of those calls contained death threats for various people, including those taking the calls! (I ought to know...I was one of the people taking the calls.)
David
[There was an ugly incident in March of 91 with a stray dog being hit and critically injured by an A train in upper Manhattan. The dispatcher knew of the dog, yet didn't stop trains because he thought it wasn't worth delaying the subway. The uproar caused the motorman so much grief that he actually needed police protection at his home.]
Last St. Patrick's Day (actually, the Saturday closest to St. Patrick's Day) I went downtown to watch the parade, and I rode the Metra Milwaukee West in. On the way home, the train was coming around the turn at Pacific Street Junction (where the Milwaukee North and Milwaukee West split) when I looked out the window and saw two identical greyhound-like dogs barking like mad and chasing the train! As the train had slowed somewhat to take the turn, the dogs nearly caught up with it, but we lost them once we were on the straightaway and the engineer could throttle up.
The people on the train, mainly families who had been downtown to shop or see the parade, were pointing and laughing out loud. What did the dogs think they were chasing? Dinner, an intruder, or what? What where they going to do if they actually caught up to the train? Biting stainless steel can't be good for a dog's teeth. (^:
I've listened to radio communication on the CTA when there has been
dogs in the subway tunnels. I don't think they really cared to
shut off the electricity, they just had some animal control people
at the stations between the tunnels.
Speaking of Metra, on Thanksgiving day we stopped at Robbins
on the Rock Island line. If you looked outside, you could see
the pleasant sight of someone breaking into a car that obviously
didn't belong to them...heh.
"I've listened to radio communication on the CTA when there has been dogs in the subway tunnels."
Where on the system did this happen? I'm trying to picture where a dog could get onto the line while it's on the surface and walk along the tracks far enough to end up in a tunnel. The places where the line is on the surface but not completely fenced in would be so far from a tunnel that the dog would have to have a cat's proverbial nine lives to get that far: the Yellow line and the ends of the Purple line, Brown line, and the Cermak Branch of the Blue line. Unless the dog entered the system at a station, not paying its fare, of course. (^:
Once it was between Chicago and North/Clyborn, another time it was
in the Blueline in the Belmont/Logan Square subway section.
Both times it was during the early hours of 2-4am.
Maybe the dogs thought they saw a rabbit hanging from the last car. And they're off!!
Want to bet a greyhound could outrun an R-68?
My money's on the mutt :-)
Want to bet a greyhound could outrun an R-68?
Want to bet a Dachshund could outrun an R-68?
From
Hey,
was anyone riding the brighton line today in the morning (around 10AM)? I heard someone got run over by a Q train at Kings Highway. Is this true? If not, what happened? D and Q service temporarily bypassed the station for 45 minutes or so.
-Pesach
Just to set the scene for this story, I live in Chicago and ride the Metra/Union Pacific-Northwest train into downtown from the Edison Park station, and the train I usually take is the #632, an express that makes three express "leaps" from Woodstock to Edison Park and from Edison Park runs express to Clybourn (the last stop before downtown). Several expresses that skip more stops run past Edison Park at high speed in the few minutes before my train comes in. (Metra schedules are at www.metrarail.com for the curious.) As an express, the train in question runs on the center track, which is of course signaled for operation in both directions.
Anyhow, this morning, all the expected expresses passed at the expected time on the expected tracks, so the train we saw coming HAD to be our train. Only it kept up full speed -- horn blowing furiously -- as it passed Edison Park. Sure enough, it got stopped by a red signal a few hundred yards past the station, where it stood for about 5-10 minutes before backing up to finally pick up the rather large (and fairly unhappy) crowd at Edison Park platform.
So, this led me to think of a few questions:
1) How common is completely overshooting the station?
2) How does this affect the engineer discipline-wise?
3) If anyone here knows, did the engineer have to get permission from Harriman Center (UP central control) just to back up, as some were speculating?
i was on a number 2 train about 8 years ago the motorman over shot the Pelham Parkway station by about 3 cars he just backed up the train you can see it coming leaving the Allerton avenue station, there is a decline that leads all down to Bronx Park East he was barreling into the Pelham Parkway station, he panicked and slammed on the brakes causing a ear shattering, head pounding, screech he didnt radio anyone he put the train in reverse, thank god the conductor didnt open the doors.
My experience is 15 years on the subway, no overshoots.
I could go into this in detail but I won't.
Recently, a train operator overshot Newkirk Ave. Actually - he slept through it. The Conductor pulled the cord at the next station and then called control center. After the train was removed from service, the motorman told his C/R that if he got into trouble because she reported the incident, he would do something to her. He accepted a 22 day suspension for both offenses.
[Recently, a train operator overshot Newkirk Ave. Actually - he slept through it. The Conductor pulled the cord at the next station and then called control center. After the train was removed from service, the motorman told his C/R that if he got into trouble because she reported the incident, he would do something to her. He accepted a 22 day suspension for both offenses.]
Back when the strike was threatened, there were a number of claims about how transit workers are subject to harsh discipline. Maybe that's true in some cases. But it seems to me that the T/O in this Newkirk Avenue incident got off extremely easy. Suspension for overshooting a station is probably a fair penalty. But threatening a fellow employee to keep her from reporting a major safety incident? That would result in firing just about anywhere in the private sector.
But threatening a fellow employee to keep her from reporting a major safety incident? That would result in firing just about anywhere in the private sector.
No kidding, especially when you factor in liability concerns.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
And possible assault/harassment claims.
Threatening others to cover up safety issues should be considered a MAJOR problem--I agree that the motorman should've been fired. It seems that the C/R went ahead and reported it anyway... good for her!
That's right. If the theat was taken seriously, the whole thing was very unfair to the C/R. Her butts on the fryer if the sleeping T/O causes someone to be hurt, but who backs her up if she does the right thing? Did management pat her on the back? What about the TWU. My guess is that they defended the T/O against her.
You bet the T/O would be fired anywhere else but the public sector, unless he was a relative of the business owner.
Larry, come to Phila and take a ride on the M4's. It happens all the time.
Bob, are they still overshooting a lot? My recent rides were almost perfect. We stopped smoothly and at the mark at every station. Some times they pull up a little too far but you can always exit by the 1st
set of doors behind the cab.
Chuck Greene
[My experience is 15 years on the subway, no overshoots.]
In two and a half years of commuting on the LIRR, I've experienced two overshoots. One was about two years ago at Hicksville, and the other was just a couple of weeks ago at my home station of Medford. But the worst experience happened about a year ago at Medford. The (one-car) train undershot the platform, and the conductor actually opened both doors - one of which was short of the platform and opened onto a four-foot drop to a steep slope. Fortunately, no one stepped out.
The J did that once. Two cars went past the station (121 Street). The train motorman had to lock the doors to the two car. Then, he instructed the passengers not to use the last two cars. And last, the conductor was given the ok to open the doors.
N Broadway Line
Pelham Parkway on the No.2 Is very easy to overshoot with the down grade southbound and so is Pelham Parkway on the No.5 Line.
Oh they're doing THAT again in Chicago, are they? DON'T THEY EVER LEARN? Back on October 30, 1972, somebody driving a Highliner (a.k.a. Bread Box, Soda Can) overshot the 27th Street station on their way to Downtown Chicago. This was at 7:30AM. THEN they made the fatal mistake of backing up to the station. Did they trip the following signal to red? YES, but ONLY after a ponderous IC train of 1926 Pressed Steel coaches (@65 tons a pop) had blithely passed it at 45MPH. Result? Carnage.
Here in NYC, my recent subway experiences show only ONE incident of a train operator overshooting a station - a #7 Flushing Express overshot the Junction Boulevard station by three-quarters of a car length (25 feet or so, give or take a few rods). This was back in March, on a day that saw ice and snow on the rails. The T/O did NOT attempt to back up. IIRC they kept the first car's doors closed.
I am not sure just how common a problem this is in NYCT, but I've logged many hundreds of subway miles and hours in 1998 and 1999 and can only report this single incident. They're pretty careful out there.
Wayne
I've experienced a number of overshoots in my lifetime of riding the subway.
One I particularly remember was at City Hall on the BMT heading towards Brooklyn. We overshot the station by approximately one car length.
Not something you want to do with the dispatcher's office being right there (or at least it was at the time of this incident).
--Mark
I was on an overshoot on a Q with Todd(I think it was 2 years ago). We were coming into Kings Highway and the T/O slid on a pile of leaves. Todd noticed that he dumped the train...we missed by the entire first car. The T/O was not happy with the pictures we took (it was my first overshoot, can you blame me?? :) )
I have video of one of the D-Type trips returning from Rockaway where we "overshot" a red signal.
Can't blame the motorman either - the signal was fairly well hidden by trees and it wasn't until we were upon it that we all saw it was red.
--Mark
Can't blame the motorman? What was the last signal that he passed displaying?
Good point. It may have been a GT signal displaying yellow, but I'd have to play the video back to be sure.
--Mark
How did the old girl handle the BIE?
Wayne
Quite a sharp stop. I got to know the railfan window quite intimately.
--Mark
Right you are, Jeremy... it was the day after Thanksgiving two years
ago, on a Q Slant-40.
Somewhere at home I have a copy of the picture you took from the
first door of the second car positioned right at the
[10] car marker.
Nothing hurts one of those MU's. They had concrete floors!
Mike, you are absolutely right on that count - numerous photos in the Chicago Tribune (which I went to Times Square and bought on the day following the accident) show the lead car of the IC express sitting up at an angle amid the wreckage of the Bilevel, with nary a scratch showing on it. In fact the most damage was caused by the rescue workers cutting an access hole into its roof. A later photograph (think it was the November 1 paper) showed the same 1926 PRS car re-railed, with some damage to its forward end (a good-sized dent in the left front corner, mostly), but wholly intact. Another photograph showed what was left of the Bilevel. Every time I ride a Bilevel on the LIRR I am reminded of that photograph.
Wayne
I'll have to dig through my back issues of Readers Digest and see if I still have the issue with that article. One sentence began with, "The heavy steel express...". The author certainly wasn't kidding about that.
There are some laws which can't be compromised, and physics is one of them.
i've been on an NJT train that slid past a station (1 car lenght) and to make it worse the dsoors opened to air! Thankfully I was seated near the door ansd blocked (via outstrethced arms) access to the door pending crew arrival. The crew directed passenger to "walk back to exit" and I repeated the direction to those customers still in that car who wished to exit. Conductor then asked me for a flag when it was clear and I complied. (yes, I gave a standard railroad hand flag signal)
A number of years ago (1971) I was returning from my Aunt Pearl's house in Edison (I boarded at Metuchen) on a local train (I think they called it Jersey Central back then) - somewhere around Linden, the side door popped open! It was a corrugated-stainless car with rounded windows. Gave us all quite a scare. At Elizabeth, the crew corrected the situation.
Wayne
My experience was rather told to me by my cousin who is a conducter for the E and F trains out of 179th St or Parsons/Archer, depending what train he is on. Well back in 1988 he told me he was doing conducter duties on the F, when it left the terminal at 179th St. It was morning rush hour and it pass 169th Street a local station and the next stop was Parsons Blvd. Well he said the motorman was up to about 63 coming into Parsons and overshot it by two cars. The motormen did not bacj up, just kept going. He didn't say if any disciplinary action was taken, but he did inform me that he hasn't worked with him since. He also told me he though the motorman was racing the E that was departing 169th street.
Frank D
63 mph? I wish I'd been there! It must have been the R-46s. Seriously, I've never been on a train which overshot a station or one on which the conductor opened up on the wrong side.
one on which the conductor opened up on the wrong side.
I saw this once and couldn't believe my eyes. Doors of an R-44 opened on the wrong side at Brighton Beach, the Manhattan-bound local track. Fortunately, no one got off.
--Mark
In 1985, I was on a downtown 7th Avenue express (don't know if it was 2 or 3) in the middle of the day. I was at the rail fan window. The motorman was FLYING down the west side. Wherever there were timers, he barely made them. Coming into 14th St., he didn't slow down at all, and then applied full service brake AFTER the first car had already passed out of the station. ( don't know if he was daydreaming or what...). When the train stopped, he leaned on the buzzer and said over the PA "don't open". The conductor came on and said, "Your attention please, there will be no stop here". We then left immediately, so I don't think they opened the rear half of the train either.
I've never been on a train where the doors opened on the wrong side unless you count a 7 that opened onto the unused platform at Willets Point (on the south side Main St.-bound instead of onto the island platform).
yes, 63, I was amazed, because I didn't think R-46's can get up to that speed. All the cars must been working. I wish i was there as well. I use to take the F to Manhattan before Archer station and when it leaves 179th st, it can get some speed up because its all downhill to Parsons Blvd.
Frank D
Prior to GOH, the R-46s (and R-44s, for that matter) could do 70 mph and topped out at over 80 during tests on the LIRR. The way things have turned out, no one will ever mistake an R-44 for an R-10.
Those old P-Wire R46 cars were definately the best I have operated. I never ran one that would reach over 60 without a grade but I did deadhead on one where the wayside regulated manual actually worked and the train topped 60 on the Queens corridor. Most of the side sign controls worked but would not stop on a route. One of my personal favorites, 666, would run the entire train's side signs to the end if you selected ID 12 with any consist. I assume that would be because the replacement signs for the original strip maps didn't have sensors that the sign motor sensors could recognize. I enjoyed the crisp touch button horns and the comfortable captain's chair. 666 had one that could still swivel too. The TA sure took a step backwards when they removed modern technology in place of a system the R10s came with. The gearing was good for top end speed and I miss exterior guard lights for each door. I heard the problem with the P-Wire was a low battery condition which they found out only after they signed on the bottom line for the destruction of these once fine cars. Now we know why Eric is "formerly known as Mr R46".
Actually, the P-wire problems were more involved than just low battery. For one thing, the side-mounted electric portions were too critical and far too sensative to coupler bushing wear. The side mounted E/Ps also developed too much play themselves. In any event, the fact that the P-wire had to loop the train, down one side and back along the other, made the P-Wire loop too prone to interruption.
In 1987, we undertook to remove the E/Ps between the A & B cars. The A & B cars were hardwired and hard piped. Almost at the same time, we created redundent P-wire loops. These too mods served to virtually eliminate P-wire failure until the cars started going out to MK for overhaul.
Thanks. By the way, I emailed you about 2658. Whats the scoop?
Ah, the blessed R-46s. A big pain but they were still my
2nd favorite car before they got GOH'd (the 1st favorite
of course being the R-10s with the 2CYs)
I seem to recall helping a t/o fix a P-wire loss by re-seating
the static cards under the console (after cutting the circuit
breakers)
With all this talk about ground loop problems and bad e/p
pins, I'm beginning to think the IRT had the right idea in
sticking with plug jumpers (they also had an explicit, beefy
B- pin).
I don't think that it's all electric portions themselves that are a problem. It's the design of that particular model.
The ones mounted on the N2a couplers of NJT Arrow III cars are exceptonally reliable and I can't remember one giving a problem. Now had the R-46 come equipped with an N2a and the same electric portion maybe things would have been different?
But Harold summed it up nicely for me. That's exactly why I am "formerly known as"
I had an "A" train of R44's open on the wall side at 175th Street a few years ago - wasn't the conductor's fault; problem with the door relay or something - anyway, we were OUT OF SERVICE before you could say "George Washington".
Wayne
I rode the Union Pacific North Line from Lake Bluff to downtown Chicago every day for over a year and I've seen some strange things during that time, but I don't recall any cases of the train overshooting the station the way you describe.
However, I did notice a substantial decline in the quality of service when Union Pacific bought out Chicago & North Western. You could literally set your watch by the C&NW trains, but once Union Pacific took over, it began to feel more like the CTA.
Maybe submit your question to ther Metra newsletter, "On the (Bi)Level" and see if they respond.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
"Maybe submit your question to the Metra newsletter, 'On the (Bi)Level' and see if they respond."
Damn, I hadn't thought of that, even though I read OTB every issue. I'll do that.
Latly OTB has been a flaming war between some fat-legged woman with
bad perfume and talks really loud and some commuter disgusted with
her.
BTW - it was an overshoot that was partly to vblame for that diasterous wreck on the IC back in the 70's where a heavyweight electric plowed into a highliner....
Yep, just about the worst train wreck I ever did see. See my posts further up the thread for more of thoughts on this accident...
Wayne
I remember when we went to Disneyworld in Orlando a couple of years back. Riding the monorails was amusing because the operators had such a hard time stopping the train in the station. The train would stop, back up a few feet, inch forward a foot or so and then the doors would open. Funny thing was, this was a regular occurance; it happened at every stop.
I had the same experience at Disney this August -- there was often an overshoot. Isn't that ATO?
had the same experience at Disney this August -- there was often an overshoot. Isn't that ATO?
The Disney monorail uses cab signalling and ATP but isn't equipped with ATO. Aside from the reportedly poor pay ($5.25/hr) and brief driver training (six days), I can hazard one guess why overruns are so common on the monorail: the trains have power settings for 15, 20 and 25, 30 and 40mph yet some track sections have speed limits of 35mph. Driver's nightmare...
For more interesting data on the Disney Monorail, try
Mimsey's Monorail station
From your story it doesn't seem like he overshot the station. It sounds more like he forgot he had to stop there and stopped when he realized it.
About a year ago, riding the headend of a slant 40 Q into Kings Hwy CI bound, we were moving at a good clip. The T/O was applying brake but we were just not stopping. We blew by the stop marker about one and half door lenghts.
The T/O stood on the Buzzer and over the PA "Don't Open, Don't Open".
He then locked out the first set of doors and told the Conductor to open up. I think he reported it as leaves on the rail. I hope he did not get a suspension for this even though you could say he was not operating under control.
On the Rock Island line once, the train blew past Tinley Park/80th
avenue. They stopped farther down (they had a green signal), but
everyone ended up walking along the right away to board onto the
train. They said they were going to back the train up, but that
never happened. I've seen it happen a few times on the line,
usually they never put the reverse on though.
One of the people who was training to be an engineer for Metra told
me if anyone does go through a red signal, that they may loose their
job over it, but I doubt anyone would.
One of the FRA six deadly sins is "passing any signal displaying an aspect of stop with out proper authority".
He might not be fired but the company must report the incident to the FRA and there are mandatory fines and suspensions as set by the federal government.
What are the other FRA deadly sins?
*Alcohol or Drug
*Speeding (there are different frames. If you do 20 in a 10 it's worse than doing 70 in a 60)
*Passing a stop signal without proper authority
*Occupying maintrack without authority. (on a RR with
manual block signals or non interlocked sidings off the
main, a BIG no no)
*Failure to make prescribed safety inspections(locomotive or train air brake)
*Tampering with a safety or warning device (deadman or cab signal buzzer/bell/whistle)
Violatiing these can cause an engineer to loose his license. They and any other employee can be fined individually by the FRA into the tens of thousands of dollars. The company involved can as well if it is found they encouraged or knowingly permitted one of these violations to happen. Their fines can go into the millions.
Now you know why he TA will never allow themselves to be FRA regulated and why they fought so hard to get SIRTOA out of it.
It would mean they would have to act professionally and responsibly.
It also allows the MTA to hire directly off the street with no experience required. The downfall of the subways.
Erik, Harry, et al: The TA is moving as fast as it can in the
opposite direction of being a real FRA railroad. From an economics
standpoint, it is very costly to maintain a staff of skilled workers
who require extensive training and must exercise good judgement.
Look at the more modern transit systems such as Washington or
BART where all the driver does is watch. I wonder if any train
operators in those systems can make a decent station stop on
manual control? Well, for that matter, how many t/o broken in
in the last 15 years can do it on the NYCTS......stopping with
70 lbs!! Inexcusable!
Still, the job of the TA is to provide public transportation
safely and affordably. Preserving the heritage of being a subway
worker is not in the mission statement. If the TA can deliver
safety through automatiion but their operating staff reaches
the skill level of fast food, they've still done what they are
supposed to do. That's a big IF.
Yes, our skills are easily expendable even though they can be compared to that of an airline pilot or railroad engineer. When the entire system goes automatic, the best I can hope is for the TMNY to go full electric, get a 5 million dollar grant and takes over the Ulster County Bus Company. Maybe then, I will not only enjoy working again, but I might even praise my employer.
Operating staff like the staff of a fast food resturaunt? Why? We're already treated that way!
And your absolutely right. The TA refuses to believe this is a railroad. It's a fairy wonderland to them with choo-choos! They are running as fast as they can toward mediocrity. Sure, safe(?) affordable transit.
Slow. Dull. And most assuredly with low skill, low pay, low morale, NO professionalism employees.
Operating staff like the staff of a fast food resturaunt?
Why? We're already treated that way!
And your absolutely right. The TA refuses to believe this
is a railroad. It's a fairy wonderland to them with
choo-choos! They are running as fast as they can toward
mediocrity. Sure, safe(?) affordable transit.
Slow. Dull. And most assuredly with low skill, low pay,
low morale, NO professionalism employees.
AND
A union that belongs to the company!
(I forgot that in the prior post)
In my experience of 40yrs (since the age of 3)only once,about 3 yrs ago N.B 6 overshot 77th st stopped halfway into the tunnel and I guess decided "the hell with it' and proceded to 86th.
were I was glad to exit.
The other day on the Evanston Express, the motorman (actually, a woman) overshot the short, 6-car platform at Armitage. The first door was off the platform. So, she opened the doors, and then just stood by the first door to make sure no one walked out.
-Jacob
That's right - Evanston Expresses are now making all stops from Belmont to the Loop. It's just as well - they have to share trackage with the Brown line until it turns off past Belmont.
IMHO, the Addison station should have been built with a center platform for the inner tracks right from the start.
It's annoying that the Evanston Express makes all stops; even if it did sometimes end up behind a Ravenswood (I hate the new color names, BTW), it was faster. I take the Evanston Express every day, and it seems to take forever. Of course, one of the reasons is the numerous slow orders along the route.
Ahem, local stations never had island platforms when Addison was originally built. It was opened in 1901, and at that time, it was a local station on the outside tracks, because the outside tracks were the local tracks at that point. Once the CTA took over in 1947, the service was revised, so there was no express and local service, per se. Instead, there were "A" and "B" skip-stop trains running on the inside tracks, and the Evanston Express trains (which did not stop at Addison) ran on the outside tracks.
Because of this, for many years, Howard all-stop and Howard "B" trains had to switch onto the outer tracks right before Addison, and then return to the inner tracks right after the station. Also, the platforms were narrow, which was not very pleasent on Cubs game days.
So, in 1992, a new station with an island platform was erected at Addison. However, there wasn't enough room to squeeze it in between the inner tracks, so they moved the southbound mains to a new concrete structure, while keeping the northbound mains on the old metal structure.
Oh, and BTW, Chicago doesen't have nearly as much express service as it deserves. Ever since they did away with "A" and "B" trains, the North-South seems to take forever to get downtown from the Northside. In rush hour, you can take the Evanston Express, but it doesen't save very much time anymore, since it makes so many stops.
Of course, since conductors are gone, I'm sure that's another reason things seem to take forever.
IIRC, before the Addison station was rebuilt, Loop-bound B trains switched to the outer track just past Lawrence or Wilson (I can never remember which is which) and stayed there until just north of Belmont. That's a neat track arrangement: if your Red line train is on the outer track and keeps going straight, it winds up on the inner track where the Brown line joins in. Sheridan must have been an express station of sorts, since it has island platforms.
Anyway, I stand corrected. Perhaps I should say the Addison station should have been rebuilt and reconfigured a long time ago.
You're right: with OPTO and discontinuance of A/B service, it does take longer to get to the Loop on the Red line.
1. All this week, people have been claiming that thay have either seen or taken pics of the R-142's. Well where are they? If anybody has taken any pics of the new cars, please let us see them. The 2 pics on nycsubway.org are good, but they're not painting or anything like that.
2. If anybody has pics of the R-142's and doesn't have a website to show them off, you can e-mail them or mail them to me and I will be more than happy to put them on my site which is http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/nyctransit
3. Does anybody know exactly where the R-142's are located at. I would like to travel to wherever they are to get some pics myself.
Dave has added two R142 pictures here. You can take a look at them.
Chaohwa
All this week, people have been claiming that thay have either seen or taken pics of the R-142's. Well where are they? ...
Please be patient. I just sent Dave about a dozen from the video that I took at the Kawasaki Plant. They're all nighttime shots, but all the images came out pretty good. I did this, as well as send him nearly 20 shots of the Polo Grounds field trip this past Sunday. Give us some time to get them up.
3. Does anybody know exactly where the R-142's are located at. I would like to travel to wherever they are to get some pics myself.
They're sitting on the Kawasaki Plant's test track, which is easily seen from the street or the outbound platform of the Metro North Yonkers station. There are 10 cars, 2 are expected to be delivered each night, so you've got 3 days left, I guess.
--Mark
All over the country, private businesses motivated by nothing more noble than their long term financial self interest, are providing all sorts of perks for employees who have to miss the party of the millenium and work instead.
So what are our enlightened public agencies offering their overnight employees (transit, police) on the big night? Hot and cold platters, sodas and coffee at evey depot, car barn and police precinct? (Yuk Yuk)
Rumor has it that I get to spend midnight sitting in a station with a load of people waiting to see if the power goes out. How's that for fun?
Alex, I think I know what's going to happen. Midnight will come, and there will be no Y2K-related power problem. At the appointed time, Command will tell all operators the crisis is over, and it's OK to resume operations. So every train on the system will take power at the same time, and send ConEd to its knees. First the subway system, then the city, then the regional power grid...
The moral of the story? Operate as usual to avoid any problems.
We jokingly kicked this idea around in class. I'm glad its not just us who think in this slightly off-the-wall manner.
It won't be just you. Amtrak is doing the same, and so are elevator operators now.
--Mark
I work for NYCHA (New York City Housing Authority) and they are begging for "Y2K Volunteers" to staff housing projects, borough offices, and central office locations for any Y2K disasters.
As for 'perks' for the typical NYCHA employee......puh-lease......don't make me laugh too hard.
I know this isn't transit related, but the question was asked.
When I first became a cop 18 years ago the union (the PBA) used to send a PBA canteen with coffee and doughnuts to every big detail such as New Years Eve and parades. However in the last few years usually you only see the canteen at cop's funerals, not at any details. Besides, now that I got promoted to sergeant I doubt they'd give anything to management anyway!! Usually if there is anything special for holidays at the station houses its arranged for and chipped in for by the guys themselves and not the city. I gotta work Christmas (the deal I made to get Yom Kipper off) and I know we'll never find any restaurant or fast food place open, especially in Bed Stuy. Heck, even White Castle is closed Christmas so I'm sure we'll arrange something.
It is a joke, I have to come in on the 1st and 2nd but since the holiday is the 31st for us (Holidays fall on Saturday we lose them per Chancellor Rules). Since I have not worked (or will not work) any overtime that week, I get straight pay for the first 5 hours of work, then 1.5 kicks in if I am allowed cash. If it is Comp time (no decison yet) then I get just the time at $6.90 meal allowance (no meal allowance if you get cash overtime).
This is all "VOLANTARY OVERTIME" haha...
We do not have to be manned at midnight but we will have a Plant Manager in Rudy's "Bunker" with a call list.
They wanted a City Planning volunteer for Rudy's bunker. What an insane idea. The only thing they might want from us is maps, and the maps would be back at Reade St, not in the bunker.
Perhaps if part of the city disappears, the City Planning volunteer could tell them what they are allowed to build in its place.
As I understand it, the new R143 cars will be placed on L and M lines.Well, what about the J/Z LINES? ARE WE GETTIN' THE SHAFT AGAIN?!COME ON MAN!!! WILL SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT'S GOING ON?!
Because they will be designed to work with the new signal system on the L (because that is the only line that shares no trackage with any other line on the B division), the R-143 will be designed to run on the Canarsie Line first. Any remaining trains could just as easily run on the J or Z as they could on the L.
Of course, if there are any remaining trains after the L has its full compliment, it wouldn't surprise me if the MTA did something like putting them on the A in order to get wider public exposure (and hopefully, good publicity) in Manhattan for the agency and whoever's in the mayor's office by then.
Cars not needed on the L are tenatively supposed to be asigned to the M. With transverse cabs, look for OPTO on the M shuttle eventually I'm sorry to say........You assume new is better. Recent history for new transit cars in general proves the opposite.
I agree with that. The last 'brand new' cars the Eastern Division got were the R-16s, and we all know how nicely that worked out, don't we?
I just think the brass down at Jay Street will want to toot their own horns a little bit when the 143s arrive, and as far as media attention goes (especially the TV stations) putting the new cars on the L and M is like putting them in Siberia. So I wouldn't be surprised if for at least a brief period, a few end up on a more high-profile line.
I wasn't refering to the R16. I was refering to the new LIRR bi-levels and their power; the new Philadelphia cars on the Market-Frankford; the new cars for the green line in Boston....the list goes on and on. Remember the purpose of the R143 on the "L" is because of the advanced signal system (CBTC). Those cars won't be going anywhere else for a good many years after they arrive.
And they shouldn't go anywhere, not only because of the CBTC requirements, but the fact that it's been 45 years since the Eastern Division received any new cars -- everything else since the R-16 has been hand-me-downs. I just think the MTA will figure the New York Times and most of the local TV stations won't pay attention to the new trains if they're running on the L and M, and will do something (maybe the static display Mark mentioned) to let everyone know what a fantastic job they're doing.
They'll get plenty of publicity from the R142 running on both IRT mainlines. The R143 doesn't have to be "showcased" at all.
But they're supposed to arrive about two years apart and the public has short memories, especially about good things. Bad things, they remember forever, so if there are any R-142 problems, then maybe the MTA will introduce the R-143s with little or no fanfare.
Maybe they didn't get too many, but the J/KK/M & LL had new air conditioned R42's assigned to them around 1969 with the R42's (approx.4852 to 4921). Then a couple of years later when the Queens IND got new R44's, the Eastern Division received their R42's: 4922 to 4949. Before the R42's the Eastern Division had around 12 R40 modifides (air conditioned) for a period short time.
I guess with the R-42 you can put a little asterisk next to my statement, because they did have about two trains a day on the L and one on the M that were new cars. But the majority remained R-7s and R-9s (and after 1971 with that awful MTA paint scheme)
I remember when the R-42s arrived on the L. If you were coming downstairs at Union Square you didn't even have to see the train, just hearing it you could tell if it was an R-42 or an R-7/9 approaching. The 42s also seemed to get up a higher wind velocity in front of it than the older cars.
The same was true at 42nd St. I would always face the express track, since I would be waiting for an A train, but could tell what sort of local train was pulling in by the sounds. The R-1/9s would come lumbering in, groaning, snarling, and hissing. The R-32s would glide in so quietly you wouldn't know it until you heard the familiar squealing brake sound. Those of you who remember the pre-GOH brake sounds will know what I'm talking about. Then again, if it was a 4-car AA train of R-32s, you wouldn't even know it was there until it was LEAVING the station, since the first car would be so far away when it stopped. The slant R-40s also pulled in quietly, and their brakes didn't squeal.
The R-10s neither lumbered nor glided in, but still had a way of making their presence known as an A train would pull in. Since they were coming downhill from 50th St. on that runaway stretch, they would hit 42nd at about 50 mph, but the way those SMEE cars could stop, it wasn't a problem; i. e., I never saw an A train overshoot the platform. Actually, I could tell when a southbound A train was approaching 42nd St. before it even came into view. The tops of the express rails would reflect light from the train's headlights, and a few seconds later, the train would appear. On those rare occasions when a prewar A train with no headlights would approach, you wouldn't know until it came into view. Surprise, surprise!
I remember when riding the J train to Jamaica, I'd look up at the trains idling at Queens Blvd. I never could tell what cars they were because the R16 and R27-30 look identical from the bottom and side. However, whenever I heard that distinctive whirring sound, I knew it was an R16. It would do this frequently, like the compressor of a refrigerator clicking on automatically, only to shut off shortly later.
The compressors on all cars from the R-15s thru the R-38s sounded very similar. At least they would cut in and out the same way. The R-10s had very distinctive sounding compressors; no other cars had them except for perhaps the R-12s and R-14s.
That R16 compressor sound was totally distinctive. I never heard that sound quite the same way on any other subway car except perhaps the R16's IRT brother, the R17. In fact, I can remember as a kid sitting on one at Queens Blvd. waiting for it's scheduled departure and I could even predict the length the sound would last before it cut off. I always knew that when the train was about to leave, I'd hear a loud click and the bottom destination side sign would light up.
Yes, I was a weird kid....lol
You're a better judge of that than I am. I rode on the R-16s only twice, for short hops, and those rides were 19 years apart.
The most distinctive thing I remember about the R-16s wasn't the compressor sounds, it was the rocking -- a slow, side to side rocking where each car seemed to be exactly out of phase with the one in front and in back of it, like on some cartoon.
The sound I remember most from the R-16 was the PA, which could take any announcement and turn it into something sounding like "Shnowsah habbiys. Shasezz fus ey BMT fratish stess bivness..."
If the Nazis had used the R-16 PA to transmit their messages during World War II, the British never would have dechipered the Ultra code.
One thign which had changed on the R-16s in the 19 years between times I rode on them had to be the new door engines with the slanted door pockets. That really stood out, no pun intended. I remember thinking, that's odd, I don't remember seeing those before. Back in 1967, they still had their original door engines. At least that M train I was on in 1986 didn't break down.
One other thing comes to mind concerning the R-16s: my sister has a photo taken by a photographer friend of hers on the subway. It's an interior train shot, and when I first saw it, I noticed the slanted door pockets right away and said "Hmmm - that's an R-16." She knows I'm a subway buff, so she wasn't too surprised I recognized the car type. Still, she found it amusing.
I always equated the sound of an approaching R-1/9 with the stock movie sound effect of a shot-down World War I fighter plane coming in for a crash landing. Standing on the Woodhaven Boulevard platform, you could hear one approaching on the express track for a full minute before actually seeing it.
As someone else stated, prior to its overhaul, the R-46 gave a small, cute 'whistle' sound when the brakes were released. Since the overhaul, a rather low pitched 'groan' is heard instead.
Since the R-32s were overhauled, they emit a distinct whine when decelerating. You can hear it standing street level on Queens Boulevard and 8th Avenue. If I'm not mistaken, the R-62As make a similar sound.
The R-10s had a very generic, but LOUD, approaching sound. My friend recalled that while idling in a station, they made a rhythmic warbling sound in a higher pitch than the 1-9s. My most vivid memory was that in a fast stretch, with windows open, the image of large metal balls rolling along sheet metal was evoked.
That rhythmic warbling sound on the R-10s was the air compressors, which were faster than the ones on prewar equipment. Everything about the R-10s was fast: fast doors, fast compressors, and lots of speed.
Funny you should mention the stock footage of the shot-down fighter plane. There is other stock footage of fighter planes with an ascending two-tone pitch, which bears a striking resemblance to an accelerating train of R-1/9s. Once in a great while, I would get a train which gave off TWO pitches simultaneously, a very consonant major third apart, as it accelerated. Ohhhhh, how I loved it! I also heard it on District Line trains in London in 1978.
Let's just say the R-10s were definitely not the quietest cars around, although they weren't all that bad in their heyday on the A line. Your analogy is a good one, though. They had a way of making their presence known.
Somone once mentioned to me that the older, pre-war cars all had reciprocating piston-type compressors, and the post-war cars had rotary compressors, which is why the newer ones made the higher pitched, jet-like sounds.
That sounds about right. I get the impression that the R-10s had a more modern reciprocating piston-type compressor, since you could still feel a slight throbbing. It's just that it was much faster than on prewar equipment, with a higher pitch to boot.
On newer equipment, I always got a kick out the way the compressors cut in. You didn't hear any throbbing at all, which makes sense if they were rotary.
Don't forget that unforgettable and easily recognized sound the R40/42 made when releasing it's brakes. I refer to it as the "Darth Vader exhaling" sound. I really miss it. I also miss the way the R46 used to whistle when releasing its brakes. Both cars lost this distinctive sound when the were GOH'd. Now they all sound like R68's.
And for some strange reason the R44 retained it's original braking sounds after GOH. There's another distinctive sound, which I always refer to as "passing gas after a large meal of beans"
I remember that R-40/42 sound as well. Not to mention the ascending "whoooooooo" the R-46s gave off as they would start from a dead stop.
The R-1/9s were known to make assorted moaning, groaning, and grunting sounds, just to name a few. And I loved them all! You would have thought those cars were living and breathing.
From heypauls R9 tape, I get a picture of what those things sounded like. They would have been a pain in the butt if they ran in the era of the walkman.
That tape brings those cars back to life. The sounds, everything. Listening to it, I feel as if I'm on that very train.
The R-1/9s were known to make assorted moaning, groaning, and grunting sounds, just to name a few. And I loved them all! You would have thought those cars were living and breathing.
All the AMUE equipment did that. I miss those sounds.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
44's ... Ding Dong Shuuuuuuuuurrrrrr
46's ... Ding Dong Tsssssssssssssss
Am I close.
As long as the door chimes are in tune with each other. :)
"I agree with that. The last 'brand new' cars the Eastern Division got were the R-16s, and we all know how nicely that worked
out, don't we?"
I assume it was good, huh?
N Broadway Line
Yeah, the R16 was fine in it's early days. But deferred maintenance destroyed these cars by the 1970's.
Explain deferred maintenance Chris R?
N Bwy Line
Explain deferred maintenance Chris R?
N Bwy Line
Deferred maintenance is when you postpone or put off preventative maintenance that is necessary to keep the equipment in good mechanical and sound running condition. When you defer maintenance, you are inviting mechanical failure and shorten the useful life of the equipment. Deferred maintanance with rapid transit cars can be compared to neglecting to do necessary maintenance on an automobile, like deferring oil changes, tune-ups, brake, fluid and hose checkups. Defer maintenance on an automobile, and you are certain to be on the shoulder calling for a towtruck. The same thing applies to transit rolling stock.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thanks BMT!
N Bwy Line
Put it this way: my Jeep wouldn't have 380,000 miles on it and still be running great had I neglected it.
Deferred maintenance means that you don't perform regular maintenance on something, you only fix something when it breaks. This policy that ran throughout the 60's and 70's almost wrecked the entire car fleet, and it surely shortened the lives of the R16, R17, R21, and R22 class, which never saw their 35th birthday, which is really the minimum number of years a subway car should be expected to last.
Thanks... By the way, can you tell me what type of maintenance is involve?
N Broadway Line
Basically, preventative maintenance involves giving a subway car a tune up at regularly scheduled intervals. This prevents mechanical problems from disrupting service because most problems are caught in their early stage at the yard, not when they finally cause a car to become inoperable.
But they did get more coats of blue and silver paint than any other cars in the history of the fleet, and to the MTA in the 70s, it wasn't whether or not you worked that counted, it was whether or not you had the corporate colors on.
It certainly didn't deter graffiti "artists". They merrily continued to desecrate cars as soon as they came out of the paint shop.
If past history is any indication, the horn tooting would likely take place with a static display of the new cars at some station during midday hours, so the public can get a "first look".
Of course, an excellent use for the lower level of 42nd St / 8th Ave would be for such a display!
--Mark
Although I really don't know for sure, according to posters in this forum in the past, I don't think there is any access to the lower level for either passengers or trains.
IIRC, the stairways to the lower level are still in place, but have been cemented over. One staircase directly beneath one of the staircases from the mezzanine is still accessible behing a locked door, and the southernmost staircase is hidden by a pull-up trap door. The track appears to be still in place, but has been designated as being permanently out of service.
IIRC, the stairways to the lower level are still in place, but have been cemented over. One staircase directly beneath one of the staircases from the mezzanine is still accessible behing a locked door, and the southernmost staircase is hidden by a pull-up trap door. The track appears to be still in place, but has been designated as being permanently out of service.
why does the TA love to burn bridges? What if they ever need to use it again?
From
why does the TA love to burn bridges? What if they ever need to use it again?
Doesn't sound like they've burned a bridge here; it could certainly be reactivated.
The problem, as many people have dicussed, is that any westward extension of the Flushing Line (No. 7) cuts directly through that lower level unless the designers do some complicated and even-more-expensive work to drop it below that lower level.
why does the TA love to burn bridges? What if they ever need to use it again?
Doesn't sound like they've burned a bridge here; it could certainly be reactivated.
The problem, as many people have dicussed, is that any westward extension of the Flushing Line (No. 7) cuts directly through that lower level unless the designers do some complicated and even-more-expensive work to drop it below that lower level.
Wasn't it mentioned that all the stairways (except 1) were sealed? I would call that burning a bridge. It would take a lot more than unlocking some padlocks at stairways to reopen that platform. Another bridge burned was at B'way-Myrtle. I think it would have been more practical to have the Myrtle Shuttle terminate upstairs, rather than downstairs with the tracks crossing the main B'way line at grade. They could have shaved the platform on the upper level to accomodate 10' wide cars. Also, if they were able to modify the R-12's for 3rd Ave. use, they could have done the same thing with some R-Types for the Myrtle Shuttle. Here's another issue - if they weren't too quick to scrap the Multi's, bluebirds or Zephyr, they could have used them on the Myrtle Shuttle. Back in 1969 when I read that they were going to tear down the lower half of the Myrtle Ave. El and run a shuttle between B'way-Myrtle and Metropolitan Ave., I thought that Myrtle Shuttle trains would use the upper level at B'way-Myrtle as the new terminal and continue to use the Q's. I was very disappointed to find out that this wasn't going to be the case. It was bad enough to tear down the Nineteenth Century era El, but to also retire the last wooden el cars, that was just too much.
From
The main reason the city gave for demolishing the Myrtle Ave. line was that it was old and couldn't support the weight on the newer subway cars, and that ridership wasnt worth rebuilding the entire line so it could run these cars. However, if they had only followed through and put the proposed lightweight car contract (R39) up for bid, the line could have been saved.
The main reason the city gave for demolishing the Myrtle Ave. line was that it was old and couldn't support the weight on the newer subway cars, and that ridership wasnt worth rebuilding the entire line so it could run these cars. However, if they had only followed through and put the proposed lightweight car contract (R39) up for bid, the line could have been saved.
They didn't want the Myrtle Ave. Line saved. They didn't want the Third Ave. El saved. They didn't want the Culver Shuttle saved. They didn't want the outer portion of the Jamaica El saved. Plain and simple. Something tells me that if the City and the TA could really get their way, all elevated lines would be torn down and replaced by buses. It has been the trend in NYC, to get rid of the els. It has been going on since 1938 and started with the 6th Ave. El. Only in New York does this madness go on with getting rid of transit.
From
Every time I ride the Franklin Shuttle and I imagine how nice the Third Ave and Myrtle Ave els would look today if they got a similar makeover, I get very pissed off.
I think the anti-el frenzy has passed. The TA has spent million of dollars in rehabbing most of the surviving ones, and it recognizes the importance of these ines, even if they seem old fashioned, as well as the impossibility of replacing all of them with underground lines. The Jamaica Ave. el fiasco of 22 years ago taught them well.
The Sixth and Ninth Avenue els were replaced by more superior subways.
The Sixth and Ninth Avenue els were replaced by more superior subways.
The sterile unadorned architecture of the 1930's IND subway can't compare to the charm and artwork of the Victorian masterpieces that they replaced. The IND subway is purely utilitarian. It has no charm and no appreciable artwork; no ornate sculpturing, no wrought iron, just sterile concrete tile with very plain mosaic. Also, except for the Smith 9th St. and Fourth Ave. stations, none of it comes outside. I prefer to ride above ground instead of underground. I prefer bridges over tunnels and els over subways (no pun intended).
From
Utility supersedes beauty. Trains in the subway are wider and longer, express in both directions, along with going more places. Further up Manhattan, and with services to Queens and Brooklyn.
Utility supersedes beauty. Trains in the subway are wider and longer, express in both directions, along with going more places. Further up Manhattan, and with services to Queens and Brooklyn.
If utility supersedes beauty, then gut the trains out. Seats take up space. We need to make more room for passengers. Can't have any art. Take the murals out. No sense in putting in any tile floors. concrete is more utilitarian. Air conditioning uses up too much electricity and costs too much. Lets sell off the subway cars. Box cars will do. they are easier to maintain and you can fit more passengers in those. You have no appreciation for anything nice. What you want is make it sterile, but make it efficient. I would hate to live in a society where you call all the shots. It would be a very mundane place to live.
"You have no appreciation for anything nice."
You and I might think of the els as "nice" because we are rail fans but I'm sure the majority of NYers think they're old, rusty, and very noisy and think the subway is an improvement. Lets face it, Third, Second, Sixth, & Ninth Avenues definitely look better than Bway Bklyn, MacDonald Av, Roosevelt Av, Jerome Av, etc. But I as a rail fan would rather have kept the els.
You and I might think of the els as "nice" because we are rail fans but I'm sure the majority of NYers think they're old, rusty, and very noisy and think the subway is an improvement. Lets face it, Third, Second, Sixth, & Ninth Avenues definitely look better than Bway Bklyn, MacDonald Av, Roosevelt Av, Jerome Av, etc. But I as a rail fan would rather have kept the els.
The majority of New Yorkers hate the subway also. They say it is dirty, noisy, uncomfortable and unsafe. Whenever I would tell any "average" people that I like the subway and enjoy riding it, they look at me like I should be in a rubber room. After all, who in his right mind likes the subway? To most New Yorkers, it is a necessary evil that exists to get you from point A to point B. Like an elevator or a public restroom, it is something that you just use. If you like it, there's something wrong with you. How many times have you taken pictures in the subway and had other passengers look at you like you're strange, like "What in the world is he doing? He's taking pictures of the subway!"
I'm a railfan. I love the subway. I love the els even more. the older the better. Fact is, I like anything antique - cars, trains, telephones, radios, furniture, you name it. Whatever it is, they don't make anything like they used to. I never got to ride the old Manhattan els. I only saw pictures. I really admire the Victorian architecture of the Nineteenth Century els - nice and ornate, full of intricate carvings and wrought iron. That's what I call craftsmanship. the Dual Contracts els are nice, but can never hold a candle to the Victorian els of the late 1800's. If "Beyond Reason" aka Eugenuis D. Train calls himself a railfan and can't appreciate the els of the last century, he's got a problem. Utility supersedes beauty? Unfortunately in today's modern world, it does. I think its a crime. We need to preserve our history instead of obliterating it. There isn't much old charm left in New York anymore. Why is it OK for buildings from the Middle Ages to be left standing in Europe, yet here in the States, very little survives past 100 years? Its really less than 100 years. Try 50-70 years. the Third Ave. El was the last remaining el in Manhattan. It should have been designated as a Federal Landmark, along with the MUDC's that ran there. This was done with the San Francisco Cable Cars. They cannot be touched. They will never be replaced. They will just keep repairing them and keep them running. They could have done that with the Third Ave. El. It was famous enough, even outside the City. I guess if it were up to "Beyond Reason", the SF Cable Cars would have been scrapped and replaced either with buses or modern light rail. Where's the history if we do that? If you remember the threads, it was Eugenuis D. Train who advocated closing the subway at night and replacing it with bus service. Railfans don't advocate such things.
From
The majority of New Yorkers hate the subway also. They say it is dirty, noisy, uncomfortable and unsafe. Whenever I would tell any "average" people that I like the subway and enjoy riding it, they look at me like I should be in a rubber room. After all, who in his right mind likes the subway? To most New Yorkers, it is a necessary evil that exists to get you from point A to point B. Like an elevator or a public restroom, it is something that you just use. If you like it, there's something wrong with you.
This viewpoint is at least 10 years out of date.
*Every* New Yorker I know (and I live in the city, and use the subways daily) will readily admit that while they're not perfect, they are significantly cleaner, more reliable and more efficient than they were 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The MetroCard is fantastic, with free transfers and discounts, and now MVMs mean I never again have to deal with sullen, surly, attitudinal STAFF behind bulletproof glass.
Yes, trains are not as fast as they might be, but at least they get you there. The station rehabs, while not to everyone's aesthetic tastes, have been well-received. And the new cars over the next few years will either be well-received or not be noticed -- which itself signifies how much our expectations have improved.
Ask around among current New Yorkers. The views you describe have slowly but surely been replaced with what should have been there all along: It's not perfect, it needs to be expanded, but what's there does a decent job most of the time. Update your attitude, BMT Lines!
Happy holidays.
This viewpoint is at least 10 years out of date.
*Every* New Yorker I know (and I live in the city, and use the subways daily) will readily admit that while they're not perfect, they are significantly cleaner, more reliable and more efficient than they were 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The MetroCard is fantastic, with free transfers and discounts, and now MVMs mean I never again have to deal with sullen, surly, attitudinal STAFF behind bulletproof glass.
Yes, trains are not as fast as they might be, but at least they get you there. The station rehabs, while not to everyone's aesthetic tastes, have been well-received. And the new cars over the next few years will either be well-received or not be noticed -- which itself signifies how much our expectations have improved.
Ask around among current New Yorkers. The views you describe have slowly but surely been replaced with what should have been there all along: It's not perfect, it needs to be expanded, but what's there does a decent job most of the time. Update your attitude, BMT Lines!
Happy holidays.
Do you know of any non-railfans that like the subway, or at least don't think that you're crazy for liking it, joy-riding on it and photographing it? That is the point I'm focusing on. Everything else is immaterial. BTW, if the subway is so largely accepted, then why is it that a lot of people only use it to go to work? On the weekends, they will drive to a mall to shop (I'm talking about people from Brooklyn and Queens). Most of the middle class doesn't even live within the city limits anymore. They live in NJ and LI. Don't think I'm totally out of touch with the City. I have friends from Brooklyn and Queens that I keep up with. They aren't railfans, so I get an unbiased picture from them. NOBODY LIKES THE SUBWAY UNLESS THEY ARE RAILFANS.
From
The reason they're not used to go shopping is because the trains don't go to the malls. If they did, then perhaps more people would use them. As for why shopping downtown is not good, then it's because some people like the unity and indoorness of malls, and a car makes it easier to get your things home after a large shopping excursion.
Suburbanization had less to do with people avoiding public transport and more to do with the fact that they could get their own house, on a lot, with a lawn and cheaper than in the city. Having someplace on that property to park the car also played a role. Public transport has never and will never go everywhere, the way it's set up, it's convenient only to go downtown and a few places along the way.
The reason they're not used to go shopping is because the trains don't go to the malls. If they did, then perhaps more people would use them. As for why shopping downtown is not good, then it's because some people like the unity and indoorness of malls, and a car makes it easier to get your things home after a large shopping excursion.
Suburbanization had less to do with people avoiding public transport and more to do with the fact that they could get their own house, on a lot, with a lawn and cheaper than in the city. Having someplace on that property to park the car also played a role. Public transport has never and will never go everywhere, the way it's set up, it's convenient only to go downtown and a few places along the way.
Bottom line - the only people who like the subway are railfans. Everyone else uses it out of necessity to go to and from work, and will use their cars for just about everything else. Thjat was my point.
From
I would rather take mass transit to work. If I had a job in, say Queens near the subway, I wouldn't bother with it. It would be to much of a hassle not to drive.
I would rather take mass transit to work. If I had a job in, say Queens near the subway, I wouldn't bother with it. It would be to much of a hassle not to drive.
I used to do most of my driving to get to other parts of Queens or to get to Brooklyn. What took me about 1/2 hour by car to get from Corona to Starret City (I had a friend there that I visited regularly) in Brooklyn, would have taken me a lifetime with 2 or 3 trains and a bus in the evenings. Flushing Line, New Lots Line and B-6 bus. Instead, I got on the LIE, Van Wyck and Belt. Work was another story. I worked at WTC. Most of the time, I took the Whitehall St. N-Train. (I'm talking late 1970's). Sometimes I'd take the E. Once in a blue moon, I drove in. There's a municipal garage that was only $3.50 for the day, back in the late seventies and it was walking distance to WTC. I went with the BQE and over the Brooklyn Bridge. I had my CB radio in the car. My handle was Zephyr. Not many other CBr's knew Zephyr was a train. They all thought I took the name from the Mercury Zephyr. Fact is, I had the handle before Mercury came out with the car. I know another railfan who had the CB handle "Third Avenue El".
From
BMT,
You're wrong again! Most of the ridership takes place on the weekends. It's just more spread out a lot more than, let's say, rush hour (a specific time period).
N Broadway Line
BMT,
You're wrong again! Most of the ridership takes place on the weekends. It's just more spread out a lot more than, let's say, rush hour (a specific time period).
N Broadway Line
I think you're wrong. Do you have any statistics to back that up? Do you have any statistics to show that more New Yorkers ride the subway during weekends than drive their cars? If you do, I'd like to see those stats. On weekends, I would think that most of those who ride the subway are those who don't have cars - in other words, those who have no alternative. The general public doesn't like the subway. Only railfans, like us like the subway. Anyway, during nights and weekends, driving is quicker than taking the subway. I know, because I was able to compare. It will take anyone less time to get home from an ERA meeting with a car than it will with the subway.
From
1. Whenever I would tell any "average" people that I like the subway and enjoy riding it, they
look at me like I should be in a rubber room. After all, who in his right mind likes the subway? To
most New Yorkers, it is a necessary evil that exists to get you from point A to point B. Like an
elevator or a public restroom, it is something that you just use. If you like it, there's something wrong
with you.
2. If "Beyond Reason" aka Eugenuis D.
Train calls himself a railfan and can't appreciate the els of the last century, he's got a problem.
Why does this combination of statements make me think about the Pilgrims who came to America for "religious freedom" - and promptly denied it to everyone else?
Let's let people like what they like, and dislike what they dislike, without passing judgement. After all, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as they say.
P.S. One thing I do like is that Christmas signature of yours. Good night and Merry Christmas!
"The majority of New Yorkers hate the subway also. They say it is dirty, noisy, uncomfortable and unsafe. Whenever I would tell any "average" people that I like the
subway and enjoy riding it, they look at me like I should be in a rubber room. After all, who in his right mind likes the subway? To most New Yorkers, it is a
necessary evil that exists to get you from point A to point B. Like an elevator or a public restroom, it is something that you just use. If you like it, there's something
wrong with you. How many times have you taken pictures in the subway and had other passengers look at you like you're strange, like "What in the world is he
doing? He's taking pictures of the subway!"
This is not true at all! Most people don't like the subway because they don't think it's not safe. Not noise. Besides, the noise isn't much of a concern as before since they upgraded the track beds.
The el's affect more people, because it's outside. Not only passengers have to deal with the noise, but store owners, tenants and building owners are affected as well.
Plus, they tend to be slower because of wind and vibrations. The only time el's perform the best, is when flooding is involve. Other than that, subways are better.
N Broadway Line
"The majority of New Yorkers hate the subway also. They say it is dirty, noisy, uncomfortable and unsafe. Whenever I would tell any "average" people that I like the
subway and enjoy riding it, they look at me like I should be in a rubber room. After all, who in his right mind likes the subway? To most New Yorkers, it is a
necessary evil that exists to get you from point A to point B. Like an elevator or a public restroom, it is something that you just use. If you like it, there's something
wrong with you. How many times have you taken pictures in the subway and had other passengers look at you like you're strange, like "What in the world is he
doing? He's taking pictures of the subway!"
This is not true at all! Most people don't like the subway because they don't think it's not safe. Not noise. Besides, the noise isn't much of a concern as before since they upgraded the track beds.
The el's affect more people, because it's outside. Not only passengers have to deal with the noise, but store owners, tenants and building owners are affected as well.
Plus, they tend to be slower because of wind and vibrations. The only time el's perform the best, is when flooding is involve. Other than that, subways are better.
N Broadway Line
Everybody is missing my point. Stop looking at things from a railfan perspective just for a few moments. I'm not comparing els and subways here. I'm talking about all rapid transit when I use the term "subway". The average person in New York City does not love the subway. To them, it is just something that exists to get people from point A to point B. You will never hear from the average person "I love the subway, but I can't stand those els". Most people think railfans are strange and wierd. Don't people look at you like you're nuts when you're photographing the subway? To most people, the subway is a necessary evil that they have to use because it is impractical to drive to work. At night or on the weekends, they use their cars. Nobody likes the subway except us railfans. I don't care what kind of improvements and upgrades they make to stations and rolling stock. This is not Europe, where people love their trains. Americans don't love their trains. They love their cars.
From
Its like when you tell someone that you'd like to take a long distance train ride they always assume you're afraid of flying.
Its like when you tell someone that you'd like to take a long distance train ride they always assume you're afraid of flying.
And when you tell someone that you're going to spend your day off riding the subway for fun, they think you just escaped from Creedmoor.
From
I tell people I have a lifetime pass there :)
--Mark
I tell people I have a lifetime pass there :)
--Mark
What kind of responses do you get?
From
I tell people I have a lifetime pass there :)
--Mark
Hey, Do you know what I used to do with subway maps when I was in high school?
I used them for book covers. My classmates thought I was off the wall.
From
12/25/99
Did it ever occur to any of you that we are perfectly normal and they are the ones that are off the walls ??
Merry Christmas
Bill Newkirk
Did it ever occur to any of you that we are perfectly normal and they are the ones that are off the walls ??
That's what I've been telling them for the past 30 years! :-)
From
Back in 1981, there was an art contest in my school district. All students were encouraged to draw a picture that best represents NYC. Every school would have one student's drawing selected as a winner, and it would the winner sent to a school in Tokyo, who was also having a similar contest. I was a good drawer, but not the best in my class. However, I won the contest at my school. Why? Because I drew the one thing other schoolkids didn't: a subway train. The Jamaica Ave. el to be exact. There were thousands of Empire State buildings, World Trade Centers, Statue of Liberties. One kid drew Yankee Stadium. I drew the lowly Jamaica Ave. el (the part that was removed by then, which nobody cared to notice). I later found out that my picture was selected because it represented a part of NYC that doesnt often get noticed, the outer neighborhoods and the people who lived in them. I also found out that the fact that I drew black as well as white people in my picture also made my pic stand out (my school was alost 100% white then).
I though it was cool. We had an awards ceremony in Manhattan,and I had a ribbon pinned on me by the late Donald Manes. I also got to bring the winner of the art exchange contest from the Japanese school that was getting my drawing.
So being a railfan as a little kid is not so strange.
Back in 1981, there was an art contest in my school district. All students were encouraged to draw a picture that best represents NYC. Every school would have one student's drawing selected as a winner, and it would the winner sent to a school in Tokyo, who was also having a similar contest. I was a good drawer, but not the best in my class. However, I won the contest at my school. Why? Because I drew the one thing other schoolkids didn't: a subway train. The Jamaica Ave. el to be exact. There were thousands of Empire State buildings, World Trade Centers, Statue of Liberties. One kid drew Yankee Stadium. I drew the lowly Jamaica Ave. el (the part that was removed by then, which nobody cared to notice). I later found out that my picture was selected because it represented a part of NYC that doesnt often get noticed, the outer neighborhoods and the people who lived in them. I also found out that the fact that I drew black as well as white people in my picture also made my pic stand out (my school was alost 100% white then).
I though it was cool. We had an awards ceremony in Manhattan,and I had a ribbon pinned on me by the late Donald Manes. I also got to bring the winner of the art exchange contest from the Japanese school that was getting my drawing.
So being a railfan as a little kid is not so strange.
You didn't win the contest because the drawing was of the trains. You won it because the photo was unique and showed diversity. You drew something that wasn't a tourist attraction. You drew something that was NY everyday life. Also, you gave representation to other races in the picture, which is real life. I'll bet the white kids drew whites and the black kids drew blacks. You drew NYC as it is - a melting pot.
From
No, trust me, it was because of it's uniqueness. The fact I drew an elevated train was the main reason I won. I was told this. The other reasons were secondary. Elevated trains are a rarity (or were in 1981).
No, trust me, it was because of it's uniqueness. The fact I drew an elevated train was the main reason I won. I was told this. The other reasons were secondary. Elevated trains are a rarity (or were in 1981).
You're right. I don't think any other kid in the whole city thought of drawing an elevated train (or subway train).
From
BMTlines is right.
But there is also something else that I'm sure was missed by alot of the other kids (and probably by most teachers) regarding your drawing: abstract and independent thought. You choose to do something out of the norm which required alot more thinking than the standard NYC icons: Empire State, WTC, etc. I'm sure the judges of the contest picke you not so much because of the ethnic diversity of the picture, or that it had a subway train per se, but because you did a drawing that was not from a 'cookie cutter' mentality. You showed real independent thinking there as a child, which I'd assume is not too common. Most kids go along with whatever their peers are doing.
Great personal story, Chris R. Thanks.
Doug aka BMTman
BMTlines is right.
But there is also something else that I'm sure was missed by alot of the other kids (and probably by most teachers) regarding your drawing: abstract and independent thought. You choose to do something out of the norm which required alot more thinking than the standard NYC icons: Empire State, WTC, etc. I'm sure the judges of the contest picke you not so much because of the ethnic diversity of the picture, or that it had a subway train per se, but because you did a drawing that was not from a 'cookie cutter' mentality. You showed real independent thinking there as a child, which I'd assume is not too common. Most kids go along with whatever their peers are doing.
Great personal story, Chris R. Thanks.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes. I agree. I think Chris would have gotten the same result if he would have drawn a picture of Coney Island. It had nothing to do with the trains. It was the fact that the drawing was something that depicted everyday New York life, not the tourist attractions and NYC icons; and that was a complete departure from what all the other kids were doing. the ethnic diversity did have something to do with it. In depicting everyday New York life, he showed that NYC is made up of many different ethnic groups, which was also a departure from what the other kids were doing. Like I said, the white kids saw NY as a city of white people and the black kids saw NY as a city of black people. Chris saw NY as the melting pot that it is.
Chris, if you still have the drawing, could you get it scanned and share it with us here on SubTalk?
From
To be quite honest, I drew the train because that's about all I drew at that age. I couldn't really draw much else.
aint nothing wrong with that !!!!
i would be proud of my son or daughter !!!
Too bad you could not win a rail fan trip to Japan. That is a place where you can see a great variety of rail/transit. In fact my older Brother is going to meet a group from the UK in March in Tokyo, for 8 days just tour the trains of Japan. Somebody ought to do that here. In fact maybe I will work on something like that, More about it later on another Post
#1Brighton Express Bob: I was in Japan in 1986 and rode their national railroad. It was neat, clean and efficient. It went under a number of tunnel underpasses like my Sea Beach. It was fun. Their railroad is mostly outdoors but from what I experienced almost all of their subway system in underground. In fact, I'm not sure if any of their subway cars ever surface. If anyone knows let me know. And their bullet train? WOW!!!!!!
Fred I will aski my bvrother, he was there in Japan taking a imersion Japaneese Class
One of the things I did in Art Class is draw a "theme" picture . I chose to do a wild picture of transportation products screaming across
the frame. The top line would have the title, the first frame a picture. then a title, them another picture, them a final title at the bottom. Needless to say, it was all busses, trolleys, and subways.
I got a good grade for my efforts, but found out at the end of the term , the a**h*** teacher threw the darn thing out! I've been hooked on transit, ever since I was 4 years old. I used to chase the bus down the street with my bicyle on the sidewalk.
Chuck Greene
what a creul thing to do!! ( your ex so-called teacher??) !!!!!!!!!
man!!!! that was very mean of him or her !!!!
You are so right- it was cruel. The art teacher was a man- get this name-"Franz Postpichal". I always thought he was a little weird. Of course aren't all us "Subfans" a little weird also? Just kidding!
Chuck Greene
Good for you! You showed not only your artistic but your creative bent as well. Nothing's more New York (except, maybe a huge Pastrami on Rye, side of potato salad, big dill pickle) than one of its own subway trains.
My pen-and-ink/watercolor of R40 #4246 that I did in high school art class got hung up in the lobby art exhibit back in '71.
I have been a railfan since EARLY childhood, going back to the days when the R21s were new and Lo-V's still prowled the Flatbush IRT.
Wayne
I once drew the entire J line from Jamaica to the Williamsburgh Bridge in one picture. I'd draw a train on one piece of paper, tape another piece to the edge and continue drawing...and drawing, and drawing. I was up to 50 feet before I ran out of paper.
When I was in college (Nassau Community) I did a term paper entitled "Transportation in Staten Island, The Forgotten Borough". I had an excuse to ride the S.I.R.T. and go through the borough.
When I was in college (Nassau Community) I did a term paper entitled "Transportation in Staten Island, The Forgotten Borough". I had an excuse to ride the S.I.R.T. and go through the borough.
Now, I imagine some students will be doing term papers about the Polo Grounds Shuttle Walking Tour.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Hey Chris: You bring back both a good and bad memory. I used to draw, or at least try to draw, Triplex Sea Beach and Brighton Beach trains. I happpened to do this many times in school, and when I was in the 7th grade in PS1 Queens, my teacher Mirs Barriere caught me. She gave me hell, grounded me from PE for a week, and was on my case all year. I don't think she liked Italian kids, because Tom Lotito, Phillipa Romano, and Tommy Iapoce, and I caught the brunt of it. I have taught for 32 years in high school, and she is the only teacher I can remember who I still loath to this very day. All the rest, even those few who used to whack me, hell, I still hold them in high esteem But not Barriere. To me, she was the devil in disguise.
I too have been a rail fan since I was a kid. I would take lego type blocks and build stations and user alphabet blocks for trains. IOf I could nmot use blocks, I'd use the map in the phone book and a pounch type can opener. My parents finally gave up!
Way to go. You're a man after my own heart.
Back in 1981, there was an art contest in my school
district. All students were encouraged to draw a
picture that best represents NYC. Every school
would have one student's drawing selected as a
winner, and it would the winner sent to a school in
Tokyo, who was also having a similar contest. I was a good drawer, but not the best in my class.
However, I won the contest at my school. Why?
Because I drew the one thing other schoolkids
didn't: a subway train. The Jamaica Ave. el to be
exact. There were thousands of Empire State
buildings, World Trade Centers, Statue of Liberties. One kid drew Yankee Stadium. I drew the lowly
Jamaica Ave. el (the part that was removed by then,
which nobody cared to notice). I later found out
that my picture was selected because it represented
a part of NYC that doesnt often get noticed, the
outer neighborhoods and the people who lived in
them. I also found out that the fact that I drew
black as well as white people in my picture also
made my pic stand out (my school was alost 100%
white then).
I though it was cool. We had an awards ceremony in
Manhattan,and I had a ribbon pinned on me by the
late Donald Manes. I also got to bring home the winner of the art exchange contest from the Japanese school that was getting my drawing.
So being a railfan as a little kid is not so
strange.
I used to cover my textbooks with plain brown paper, then draw R-32 style sign boxes with my name and subject in the route and destination slots. I would even draw an R-type bulkhead on test papers in such a way that the grade would appear in the route slot.
I used to cover my textbooks with plain brown paper, then draw R-32 style sign boxes with my name and subject in the route and destination slots. I would even draw an R-type bulkhead on test papers in such a way that the grade would appear in the route slot.
I like that idea. Did your teachers honor it by putting your grade in the route box?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And just as importantly, did they use the right color for each letter grade?
And just as importantly, did they use the right color for each letter grade?
Yeah!
A
B
CC
D
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well, I drew very small bulkheads, and then only after I would get the test paper back, so my teacher never caught on. I did draw one once on a spelling test before trading papers with this kid who sat across from me (we would grade each other's papers after taking the test), and he started to fill in the slots incorrectly! Stuff like "100" in the route slot and "A" in the middle of the railfan window. He didn't have a clue as to what it was.
I only did that in fifth grade, right after we moved to Jersey, and that was when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I didn't really care for the color codes and, no, my grade letters didn't match the code. Plus I'd put the grade in the route slot, not the destination slot as was the case when the R-16, R-32s, and R-38s got those multicolored route curtains.
Well, I drew very small bulkheads, and then only after I would get the test paper back, so my teacher never caught on. I did draw one once on a spelling test before trading papers with this kid who sat across from me (we would grade each other's papers after taking the test), and he started to fill in the slots incorrectly! Stuff like "100" in the route slot and "A" in the middle of the railfan window. He didn't have a clue as to what it was.
I only did that in fifth grade, right after we moved to Jersey, and that was when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I didn't really care for the color codes and, no, my grade letters didn't match the code. Plus I'd put the grade in the route slot, not the destination slot as was the case when the R-16, R-32s, and R-38s got those multicolored route curtains.
The reason why your classmate didn't have a clue to what it was probably because this was in New Jersey. If it was in the 5 boroughs, I think your classmate would have put the letter grade right in the route box.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's entirely possible. Once in fifth grade, my teacher asked how many of us had ridden on the subway in New York, and maybe half the kids raised their hands. No one else was immersed in the subway the way I was, though.
If someone had asked kids in my old school if anyone had ridden any SEPTA route other than regional rail it probably would have been less. And my school was right outside the city limits.
BMT,
I like the el's too, but, to be frank, I wouldn't want to live by them. Especially if the building was built after the 1960's. These building aren't as sound proof as previous generations. They use cheaper materials like sheeprock and very little instilation. It's almost like living on the street.
N Broadway Line
It's not like the subway trains are just underground copies of their old el counterparts, they actually do more. Seats are not useless, you can sit in them. Tile floors are more easily maintained, air conditioning adds comfort.
Just because the el stations were nicer than the subway stations, doesn't mean the el was better. Els aren't shielded from the weather, they block sunlight to the street below and those els had structural problems that prevented them from taking all steel cars. The subway wins.
It's not like the subway trains are just underground copies of their old el counterparts, they actually do more. Seats are not useless, you can sit in them. Tile floors are more easily maintained, air conditioning adds comfort.
Just because the el stations were nicer than the subway stations, doesn't mean the el was better. Els aren't shielded from the weather, they block sunlight to the street below and those els had structural problems that prevented them from taking all steel cars. The subway wins.
I was just making a point. If the subway wins, then why didn't Chicago tear their 2-track el from 1892 down and build a 4-track express and local trunk subway line?
From
I'm just saying that the subway now is better than the el was. Had the el never been torn down, I wouldn't want it to be. It was, it will never come back. At least the subway does more to make for the loss.
I'm just saying that the subway now is better than the el was. Had the el never been torn down, I wouldn't want it to be. It was, it will never come back. At least the subway does more to make for the loss.
There's still an unresolved matter on 2nd Ave. that was promised long before either of us were born. Maybe it will be by 2099.
From
Well, if the east side els were still around and the west side ones had been gone to be replaced by the subway, that would have been swell.
Well, if the east side els were still around and the west side ones had been gone to be replaced by the subway, that would have been swell.
I don't know about it being swell, but at least we would have something in the way of a Manhattan El. What would have been swell is to have all the els and the 8th Ave. Subway. Probably the best time to be a railfan was between 1932 and 1938.
From
"I was just making a point. If the subway wins, then why didn't Chicago tear their 2-track el from 1892 down and build a 4-track express and local trunk subway line?"
Too costly.
N Broadway Line
"I was just making a point. If the subway wins, then why didn't Chicago tear their 2-track el from 1892 down and build a 4-track express and local trunk subway line?"
Too costly.
The idiotic politicians (namely LaGuardia) should have thought of that before they tore NY's els down. You could have built the entire IND Second System and more with the kind of money that it will cost to build a Second Ave. Subway now. Between the years of 1938 and 1977, NYC has done the stupidest things regarding transit - such as replacing els with more expensive subways needlessly (The prime example is Archer Ave.) and tearing down els with no replacement altogether, such as 2nd Ave., 3rd Ave., Myrtle Ave., Lexington Ave. and Culver Shuttle and replacing them with buses. In the late 1800's and early 1900's, the trend was to replace surface routes with more efficient rapid transit. Now the trend is replacing rapid transit with less efficient buses - madness!
From
>>>The IND subway is purely utilitarian. It
has no charm and no appreciable artwork; no ornate sculpturing, no wrought iron, just sterile
concrete tile with very plain mosaic. <<<
Well, the IND tilework does have its charm. It's better than the extremely boring 1950s-1960s tilework (see the Grand Street station) and its signage and color coding is attractive...compare to the boring black and white signs the MTA has used since the 80s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, the IND tilework does have its charm. It's better than the extremely boring 1950s-1960s tilework (see the Grand Street station) and its signage and color coding is attractive...compare to the boring black and white signs the MTA has used since the 80s.
True. As more time passed, things got more sterile. Grand St. and 57+6 are the 2 most sterile-looking stations in the system. Architectturally speaking, the late 1960's and 1970's was a very sterile, mundane period. Look at ball parks. All the parks built in the 1970's are a symmetrical circle and lacking character. Look at ballparks built in the '90s - Jacobs Field, Camden Yards, Bank One Ballpark - architecture made to look old with modern technology - architecture with character. As for my comments about the 1930's IND, I meant compared to the Victorian architecture of the Manhattan els. Aslo, look at the comparison between the 1930's IND and the 1904 IRT subway. Sterile vs. a work of art. I don't like utilitarian with no character. Give me beauty, craftsmanship, a work of art, something with character. I like intricate, ornate carvings and sculpture. I like wrought iron. I like nicely-crafted wood. If I was rich, I'd like to have the 155th St. stairway railings on the stairs in my home. I would have the wrought iron railing painted black.
As for the boring black and white signs that the TA has been using, please! I'm going to vomit! They should have left the original signs on the stations. Back in the Seventies, they were replacing the signs at the end of the el stations that read "All persons are forbidden to enter upon or cross the tracks" with the same contemporary crap in black over red. They should have left those alone also.
From
Just like the ballparks, the MTA is rebuilding stations to look like they did when built in many cases. And the newer stations, while still not so nice, are a lot better than the 50s/60s/70s crap.
Just like the ballparks, the MTA is rebuilding stations to look like they did when built in many cases. And the newer stations, while still not so nice, are a lot better than the 50s/60s/70s crap.
I'm in total agreement. From about the 1930's until recently, architecture has been sterile and mundane. As a civilization, we are finally waking up to the fact that the Nineteenth Century and early Twentieth Century architecture had a certain good flavor and character that has been missing in architecture for a long time. The newer ballparks and subways are reflecting this. Although I would have liked it better to restore the Franklin Shuttle to its 1906 glory, I still think they did a wonderful job in redoing it. It is modern, yet it has that early Twentieth Century flavor and character that was so prevalent during the World War One era. The same goes for the BMT station restoration. Even though I've stated that the money to rehab the stations could have gone to better use, I am very impressed with what they did in turning sterile-looking IND-style stations into original-looking BMT stations. I make reference to Broad and Fulton St. stations. I'm also impressed with the kiosk at Astor Place. I didn't think there would ever be another kiosk 9on the IRT.
From
There's one in front of Supreme Court in Cadman Plaza.
There's one in front of Supreme Court in Cadman Plaza
You mean there's another kiosk besides the one at Astor Place? Allright!! :-) What station is the other one at?
From
There's one in front of Supreme Court in Cadman
Plaza. They should really put one a few blocks south on Schermerhorn at the entrance to the Transit Museum. Maybe the museum would get a few more patrons passing by. Let's face it, if you didn't read the sign on the staircase you would think its a regular station but a kiosk might make people stop and look.
There's one in front of Supreme Court in Cadman
Plaza. They should really put one a few blocks south on Schermerhorn at the entrance to the Transit Museum. Maybe the museum would get a few more patrons passing by. Let's face it, if you didn't read the sign on the staircase you would think its a regular station but a kiosk might make people stop and look.
Thast's a good idea. The only thing is that there were only kiosks at origional 1904 IRT stations.
From
The Sixth and Ninth Avenue els were replaced by more superior subways.
Correction:
The sterile unadorned architecture of the 1930's IND subway can't compare to the charm and artwork of the Victorian masterpieces that they replaced. The IND subway is purely utilitarian. It has no charm and no appreciable artwork; no ornate sculpturing, no wrought iron, just sterile concrete and tile with very plain mosaic. Also, except for the Smith 9th St. and Fourth Ave. stations, none of it comes outside. I prefer to ride above ground instead of underground. I prefer bridges over tunnels and els over subways (no pun intended).
From
>>>It has been the trend in NYC, to get rid of
the els. It has been going on since 1938 and started with the 6th Ave. El. Only in New York does this
madness go on with getting rid of transit.<<
Boston did get rid of its only el and will soon get rid of one of its two remaining el stations. They did build a replacement, which the TA did not do when they closed the Myrtle and Third.
Doesn't the MTA want to build an el on 31st St to exiend the N to LaGuardia, much to the chagrin of 31st St shopowners and residents?
Boston did get rid of its only el and will soon get rid of one of its two remaining el stations. They did build a replacement, which the TA did not do when they closed the Myrtle and Third.
I was unaware that Boston tore down its el. Do you mean to tell me that Boston has only 2 el stations left? Shocking! BTW, I've seen pics of the Boston system, but I've never been there.
From
And now this Boston update... written from midtown Manhattan!
The el that was torn down was the old Orange Line el, and replaced by the "southwest corridor."
There are still a number of elevated stations, including (but not limited to):
North Station and Science Park on the Green Line
Charles/MGH on the Red Line
Malden on the Orange Line
I suspect there are a few others I'm forgetting; Gerry or Jeremy are you lurking out there?
And now this Boston update... written from midtown Manhattan!
The el that was torn down was the old Orange Line el, and replaced by the "southwest corridor."
There are still a number of elevated stations, including (but not limited to):
North Station and Science Park on the Green Line
Charles/MGH on the Red Line
Malden on the Orange Line
I suspect there are a few others I'm forgetting; Gerry or Jeremy are you lurking out there?
I never thought that another city with rapid transit would get caught up in the same mentality as NY - tear down the els! Chicago hasn't done it. Fact is, the el goes right through the heart of the business district, which is called the "Loop" because of the el that makes a loop there.
From
"I never thought that another city with rapid transit would get caught up in the same mentality as NY - tear down the els! Chicago hasn't done it. Fact is, the el goes right through the heart of the business district, which is called the "Loop" because of the el that makes a loop there."
How do people manage to get their work done? Must be almost impossible. I, say, tear the el down, and replace it with subway in the business district especially.
N Broadway Line
"I never thought that another city with rapid transit would get caught up in the same mentality as NY - tear down the els! Chicago hasn't done it. Fact is, the el goes right through the heart of the business district, which is called the "Loop" because of the el that makes a loop there."
How do people manage to get their work done? Must be almost impossible. I, say, tear the el down, and replace it with subway in the business district especially.
N Broadway Line
You missed the point. Chicago is getting along just fine with the el. They have no intentions of tearing it down. Why should they do that? It would probably cost more to replace the Chicago El than it would cost to build the Second Ave. Subway. Who in Chicago is going to pay for it? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
From
Absolutely it works! I worked in a building nearby for a few months back in the '70s and was very happy for the convenience of it. I rode it every day from Howard Street to Merchandise Mart, which at the time was a non-stop run on the Evanston Express. Chicagoans love their "L" and especially the loop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I liked the old Orange Line, in fact I have a Video Tape on it, The few times I rail fanned, I took the Green Line Trolley from Downtown. I forgot to where. But the Orange Line was right next to it(South) and the orange Line North. I have not been to Boston since 85.
How do people manage to get their work done? Must be almost impossible. I, say, tear the el down, and replace it with subway in the business district especially.
Such words are considered blasphemy in Chicago!!!
The Loop is as much a part of Chicago as is Wrigley Field, deep-dish pizza, and the Hancock Center. Telling Chicago to tear down the L is tantamount to telling New York to tear down the Brooklyn Bridge.
The noise from the trains isn't bad once you get used to it; I actually enjoy listening to the trains sqeal around the Loop. Because when I hear that sound, I know I'm in Chicago. :-)
Although, I have a friend who once worked in an office with an L passing right outside the window... Apparently whenever a train passed by, the electromagnetic fields from the train caused his computer monitor to turn all sorts of weird colors. Now that would get a tad annoying.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
How do people manage to get their work done? Must be almost impossible. I, say, tear the el down, and replace it with subway in the business district especially.
Such words are considered blasphemy in Chicago!!!
The Loop is as much a part of Chicago as is Wrigley Field, deep-dish pizza, and the Hancock Center. Telling Chicago to tear down the L is tantamount to telling New York to tear down the Brooklyn Bridge.
The noise from the trains isn't bad once you get used to it; I actually enjoy listening to the trains sqeal around the Loop. Because when I hear that sound, I know I'm in Chicago. :-)
Although, I have a friend who once worked in an office with an L passing right outside the window... Apparently whenever a train passed by, the electromagnetic fields from the train caused his computer monitor to turn all sorts of weird colors. Now that would get a tad annoying.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Yeah! You tell em! There are a bunch of people who call themselves railfans on SubTalk that want to see els torn down. New York made a big mistake in tearing the Manhattan els down. They don't realize that those els were as much a trademark of New York as the Chicago El is in Chicago. Many New Yorkers don't realize that people from different parts of the country that have never been to New York have heard of the Third Avenue El, even though they are too young to have ridden it even if they had been to New York.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There are a bunch of people who call themselves railfans on SubTalk that want to see els torn down.
Uhhhh ... BMT ... we're allowed to have different opinions on here. By and large, I think it's safe to say that few railfans want to see service ended on any mass-transit line. But not all of us have your unbending, unquestioning, absolutist belief that els are the preferred mode of rail transit. We are still railfans too.
New York made a big mistake in tearing the Manhattan els down. They don't realize that those els were as much a trademark of New York as the Chicago El is in Chicago. Many New Yorkers don't realize that people from different parts of the country that have never been to New York have heard of the Third Avenue El, even though they are too young to have ridden it even if they had been to New York.
This one I'd disagree with -- I think it may be generational. At 40, I don't know a single person my age or younger who's heard of the Els in NYC. (And believe me, I ask them a lot about what they think they already know about rail in NYC when they visit!) The subway, yes, mostly 'cause it's in movies a lot. But I think awareness of the Els in NYC is largely gone in America at large, save for history buffs, NYC buffs and railfans. Anyone else agree/disagree?
Thanks JV!
N Broadway Line
This one I'd disagree with -- I think it may be generational. At 40, I don't know a single person my age or younger who's heard of the Els in NYC. (And believe me, I ask them a lot about what they think they already know about rail in NYC when they visit!) The subway, yes, mostly 'cause it's in movies a lot. But I think awareness of the Els in NYC is largely gone in America at large, save for history buffs, NYC buffs and railfans. Anyone else agree/disagree?
I'm talking about average people, not history buffs. People who never visited New York have heard of the Third Avenue El. The EL has been documented too much for it to be forgotten. The Smithsonian in DC even has a model of it. As for you and your partner in crime who want everything above ground torn down and put underground, I at least can rest knowing that both of your wishes will not come to pass. You heard the man in Chicago. He's talking about regular people liking the el, not even railfans. If you consider yourself a railfan, you could fool me. No railfan wants els replaced by either subaways or buses. As for my "unbending, unquestioning, absolutist belief that els are the preferred mode of rail transit", among GENUINE railfans, yes, the els are the preferred mode of rail transit. It is normal to want to ride in the open air above ground and watch the scenery (buildings, trees, etc.) pass by, than to ride in a black tunnel and see nothing but concrete walls and pillars. Also, I like to be able to see if its light or dark outside. I like to be able to see if its raining or if its sunny outside. After all, would you rather work in an office with a window, or an office with no window? If you want the els torn down that bad, become a politician. You sound like a LaGuardia protege. Hey, man, why not tear the whole city down and put it underground. Let me ask you something - Do you hate trolleys also?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As for you and your partner in crime who want everything above ground torn down and put underground ... If you consider yourself a railfan, you could fool me ... among GENUINE railfans, yes, the els are the preferred mode of rail transit. It is normal to want to ride in the open air ... If you want the els torn down that bad, become a politician. You sound like a LaGuardia protege ... Let me ask you something - Do you hate trolleys also?
BMT, my better judgement tells me simply to ignore your post, but:
- I *don't* want everything above ground torn down.
- However, I don't think Els are the only, or the best, form of urban rail transit.
- You and I are going to have to differ on what constitutes a "GENUINE railfan". IMHO, my definition is considerably more open, expansive and accepting than yours. Perhaps you're not looking for SubTalk at all, but ElTalk?
- I don't want the Els torn down.
- I don't hate trolleys. I don't hate Els either. And if you that's what you took away from my postings, then I think you'd better go back and re-read them.
Perhaps you and I had better refrain from commenting on each other's posts in the future. SubTalk has been freer of personally vituperative flame wars than other BBs I've used in the past, and I'd like to keep it that way. Would you?
Perhaps you and I had better refrain from commenting on each other's posts in the future. SubTalk has been freer of personally vituperative flame wars than other BBs I've used in the past, and I'd like to keep it that way. Would you?
I'm all for keeping the peace on this board.
It all started with a personal attack from you by telling me that my thinking on the subject of how New Yorkers perceive the subway is outdated and that I need to update my attitude. Your post read:
"This viewpoint is at least 10 years out of date.
*Every* New Yorker I know (and I live in the city, and use the subways daily) will readily admit that while they're not perfect, they are significantly cleaner, more reliable and more efficient than they were 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The MetroCard is fantastic, with free transfers and discounts, and now MVMs mean I never again have to deal with sullen, surly, attitudinal STAFF behind bulletproof glass.
Yes, trains are not as fast as they might be, but at least they get you there. The station rehabs, while not to everyone's aesthetic tastes, have been well-received. And the new cars over the next few years will either be well-received or not be noticed -- which itself signifies how much our expectations have improved.
Ask around among current New Yorkers. The views you describe have slowly but surely been replaced with what should have been there all along: It's not perfect, it needs to be expanded, but what's there does a decent job most of the time. Update your attitude, BMT Lines!"
I found your post to be an offensive personal attack. I never initiate mud-slinging, but I do respond when attacked. Another one of your attacks was "But not all of us have your unbending, unquestioning, absolutist belief that els are the preferred mode of rail transit."
Refraining from responding to each other's posts is no solution. What is a solution is to just respond to the post in a civil manner without making any provoking personal attacks; and like I said, you started it, not me. To keep the peace on the BB, I suggest a mutual "ceasefire". It is bad enough that there is another feud going on (I don't even have to mention the names, everybody knows who the two are), this board doesn't need more feuds. All feuding does is suck up our time, as well as the time of those who have to read it. As far as I'm concerned, its back to my hobby (the trains) for me.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT,
You attacked me in the pass too about my liking for subways over el's. You accuse me of the same things you're accusing JV of. No one here is promoting the removal of the el's. We just love the subway more.
N Broadway Line
BMT,
You attacked me in the pass too about my liking for subways over el's. You accuse me of the same things you're accusing JV of. No one here is promoting the removal of the el's. We just love the subway more.
N Broadway Line
Ok. You take the low road and I'll take the high road.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Sorry, but I never saw this as a flame war. It is more like a healthy debate. You have to go to usenet to see real flame wars where posters curse each other out, etc. I kinda like this.
I don't hate the Els - in fact I enjoy them quite a bit. But I'd also be happy to see them replaced with subway lines.
I don't see how that opinion makes me less of a railan, and I don't think it's right for you to make that claim. You have your opinion about the Els, and I respect that. I admit- the views are great, and part of me would miss that if they were torn down. But I think I would prefer to see subway lines, and I think I'm entitled to that disposition.
Can we agree to disagree, with no one being considered an inferior railfan?
Can we agree to disagree, with no one being considered an inferior railfan?
Yes. I wasn't aiming at you. You are entitled to your opinion, even though I vehemently disagree with it. Its just that I can't relate to being a railfan and wanting to see els torn down. If Roger Arcara heard this, he would be spinning in his grave.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"I don't hate the Els - in fact I enjoy them quite a bit. But I'd also be happy to see them replaced with subway lines."
As a subway advocate, I disagree with this idea of replacing all the el's with subway. Only the one's in the business district should be remove. As a matter of fact, if the TA decided to build more el's (as a cost cutting measure) here in Queens, I will be the first person to support this idea. Besides, rail transportation is better than buses whether they be elevated or subway.
N Broadway Local
"Yeah! You tell em! There are a bunch of people who call themselves railfans on SubTalk that want to see els torn down. New
York made a big mistake in tearing the Manhattan els down. They don't realize that those els were as much a trademark of
New York as the Chicago El is in Chicago. Many New Yorkers don't realize that people from different parts of the country
that have never been to New York have heard of the Third Avenue El, even though they are too young to have ridden it even if
they had been to New York."
I'm not promoting the demolition of the el's BMT. Just in the downtown areas where people are conducting business.
N Broadway Line
I'm not promoting the demolition of the el's BMT. Just in the downtown areas where people are conducting business.
It is not necessary. If a referendum were put on the ballot in Chicago, I'd be willing to bet that it would be voted down. The man from Chicago is right. The Chicago El, particularly the "Loop" is a Chicago icon. The Loop should remain for the same reason that Yankee Stadium should remain, despite the bad neighborhood and lack of parking. BTW, if parking for Yankee Stadium is a problem, they should tear down some tenements and build parking lots or garages. I want to mention one more thing about els in downtown areas. I've said this many times in other posts. The Miami Metrorail is 100% elevated due to the topography of South Florida being mostly sand and the water table being too high for subteranean construction. That's why buildings in South Florida have no basements. they would be constantly flooded. The Miami Metrorail opened in 1983 and goes right through the heart of Downtown Miami. That is where the elevated Government Center station is located. Also in the Downtown area is the Metromover, a rubber-tired single or double-car automated elevated people mover that loops arounf the Downtown area.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>BTW, if parking for Yankee Stadium is a problem, they should tear down some tenements and build parking lots or
garages.
They already did that, back in the '70s. Hasn't helped. Even if the entire South Bronx was leveled to make 57,000 parking spaces, the road network can't handle the volume of traffic in and out. As planners learned to their dismay since the war, there's no such thing as enough roads--the more lanes you build, the more cars will come to fill them. The trick is to get people not to come by car--either walking (a surprisingly pleasant stroll from the Columbia campus, if you know where you're going) or on the trains. I'd expect the MNRR stop at the Stadium to be a big hit, if it ever gets done--Boston has something similar near Fenway.
BTW, how did the IND station get designed so badly? Both the IRT station upstairs and the station at Shea handle crowds much more fluidly. Why not two island platforms, so middle-track specials could double capacity? Why not wider stairs?
Fenway Park is at Kenmore Square in Boston; a two-block walk from the Green Line trolley. There is also a "Yawkey Station" on one of the commuter rail lines, but it's a rarely used station (only just before and just after games) and not well patronized.
The interesting part about Yawkey Station usage is not only are there two trains(I think) that are "Yawkey Specials," but on the Framingham line(where Yawkey Station is located), ALL inbound trains stop there on game days.
The Patriots have a Patriots Special before home games too, but since I have only been to one Pats game, I have no idea how well it is used.
They already did that, back in the '70s. Hasn't helped. Even if the entire South Bronx was leveled to make 57,000 parking spaces, the road network can't handle the volume of traffic in and out. As planners learned to their dismay since the war, there's no such thing as enough roads--the more lanes you build, the more cars will come to fill them. The trick is to get people not to come by car--either walking (a surprisingly pleasant stroll from the Columbia campus, if you know where you're going) or on the trains. I'd expect the MNRR stop at the Stadium to be a big hit, if it ever gets done--Boston has something similar near Fenway.
BTW, how did the IND station get designed so badly? Both the IRT station upstairs and the station at Shea handle crowds much more fluidly. Why not two island platforms, so middle-track specials could double capacity? Why not wider stairs?
City people can come by train, but suburbanites will continue taking their cars. As for why the IND station was poorly designed, I don't know why. As for Shea, don't forget that Willets Point station was designed for the World's Fairs. That's why it can handle the crowd volume that it does. The IRT at 161st St. was built before Yankee
Stadium, but the IND was built after, so its a mystery about its poor design for crowds.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Even the 155th St / 8th Ave on the Concourse Line that once served the polo grounds is a local stop. However, it had 8 staircases for each platform to handle crowds, a huge entrance and mezzanine. Speculation has that there were entrances from this mezzanine right into the Polo Grounds, but 5 of the 8 staircases (and 3/4 of the mezzanine) are sealed so this theory can't be proven.
--Mark
It can be proven by people that remember. Unfortunately even though my dad took us to the Polo Grounds by "D" Train (for the Mets) I don't remember if we went right into the ballpark directly from the station. I was very young in second grade but I do remember the ride!!! However I could imagine it could have been as the IND had other stations with direct entrances to places such as the Museum of Nat History and Rockerfeller Center.
B"H
As a former miami resident of over 10 years, I can tell you that the ridership on the metrorail is quite poor. It doesn't go anywhere that people want to go. Take for instance, the eastern portion of Dade county for example? Perhaps southern broward cty? If the bozos in planning had used their brains when they designed the system, they would have had it go straight up US1 to Fort Lauderdale at least.
Public Transportation in Miami is a nightmare at best. Without a car in Miami, you are pretty much stuck, as the busses dont run all that often, and they also (like the rail) go nowhere. I always wondered why they didn't build the rail system up the east side (where most of the population lives). I have a theory, and it relates to the fact that down at city hall, you are just as likely to hear conversations in spanish as in english, and guess where the main terminus of metrorail is? Hialeah (If you don't speak spanish in some areas of Hialeah, you're lost)
As a former miami resident of over 10 years, I can tell you that the ridership on the metrorail is quite poor. It doesn't go anywhere that people want to go. Take for instance, the eastern portion of Dade county for example? Perhaps southern broward cty? If the bozos in planning had used their brains when they designed the system, they would have had it go straight up US1 to Fort Lauderdale at least.
Public Transportation in Miami is a nightmare at best. Without a car in Miami, you are pretty much stuck, as the busses dont run all that often, and they also (like the rail) go nowhere. I always wondered why they didn't build the rail system up the east side (where most of the population lives). I have a theory, and it relates to the fact that down at city hall, you are just as likely to hear conversations in spanish as in english, and guess where the main terminus of metrorail is? Hialeah (If you don't speak spanish in some areas of Hialeah, you're lost
You said a mouthful - all true! I indicated in a previous post that I haven't ridden the Metrorail since 1991 or 1992 (I don't remember for sure). That's the reason. It goes nowhere. By the time it takes me to get to Hialeah by car, along with taking the Metrorail, I could be downtown just as fast in my car at less cost. All it really services is people in Kendall, South Miami, Liberty City, Overtown and Hialeah. It was really built for the extreme poverty-stricken people inh the ghettos of Dade County. US1 would have been a good idea. If they couldn't do that, it should have parallelled I-95 instead of turning and going west through Liberty City. If it would go up I-95 to Golden Glades, you would see much more ridership, as people from all over Broward who work in Miami would be more tham happy to take it downtown from there. Another big fiasco is Tri-Rail. Without a decent network of buses, how could you use Tri-Rail? the only things Tri-Rail is good for is going to Downtown Miami, but you still have to take a long ride (all local) on Metrorail from Hialeah. The other thing that Tri-Rail is good for is visiting someone. Once you get to your destination station, the party you are going to see would need to pick you up at the station and drop you off when you leave. Bus service is an absolute horror in South Florida. Broward County Transit never expanded its bus service to the ever-growinig southeast part of the county. Southeast Broward has no bus service. Buses run from 7 AM to 10 PM, and depending on the route, frequency is 10 min., 20 min., 30 min., 40 min. or 60 min. It doesn't matter if it is the height of rush hour. If the route runs every hour, that's what you get. I've been here close to 20 years. Except for an express bus to Downtown Miami, I have never ridden a local bus down here. I depend on my car 100%. If the car doesn't start, I have to wait for AAA. If anybody wants to see the service offered by Broward County Transit, check out http://www.co.broward.fl.us/bct/welcome.htm Click on Bus Timetables and Maps. Check out the schedules on some of the routes. Scroll down to the bottom and pull up the System Map. Look at the Southeast part of the county. No bus service. This area was sparsely populated 10 years ago, but is the fastest-growing part of South Florida. There are loads of new communities in the Southeast part of the county. BCT has never expanded their bus service to meet the needs of these people. South Florida is a major metro area with 5 1/2 million people. There's no excuse for the rotten transportation here. Yet, there are other metro areas in the United States that are no different. So, like I said in a previous post, be thankful for your transit and bus system. It is priceless. And don't bitch and complain when you miss a train and have to wait 20 minutes for the next one. For anyone who knows this area, I live in Southwest Broward near I-75 about 2 miles from the Dade County Line, not too far from Pro Player Stadium, home of the Dolphins and Marlins.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
B"H
I couldn't agree with you more! Without a car in south florida, you're stuck. My parents live in Pembroke Pines, and without a car, forget it. I don't even think that buses run west of I75 at all.
TriRail??!! what a waste of time and money. I always thought that FEC could make money running a commuter service on their line (which parallels US1 incidentally), but they probably make so much on Intermodal transport that it wouldn't make the liability of carrying live cargo worthwhile. To top it off, their line has been singletracked in many places, completely killing chances of rebuilding it. Oh well.
These are the things that happen when know-nothing politicians and bureaucrats plan transit. Many come from places that didn't have even have the slightest link to a public (rail) transit facility. Many like to plan rapid transit and light rail as cutesy forms of transport. Transit needs to serve a purpose. If they want to just run trains back & forth, buy a toy train set! PLanners must envision and then PROMOTE the corridor the line is to run along; build to meet the demands; reroute buses as feeders. Many have a mentality that they don't want to create another NY. Believe me, NO ONE could EVER be another NY. After the IRT, then the BMT and IND were planned & built, corridors grew and the purposes were served.
Joe C.
These are the things that happen when know-nothing politicians and bureaucrats plan transit. Many come from places that didn't have even have the slightest link to a public (rail) transit facility. Many like to plan rapid transit and light rail as cutesy forms of transport. Transit needs to serve a purpose. If they want to just run trains back & forth, buy a toy train set! PLanners must envision and then PROMOTE the corridor the line is to run along; build to meet the demands; reroute buses as feeders.
The Metrorail is a nicely-designed modern el that runs ATO on all welded rail. It was opened in 1983 and 1984. It is a nice attraction for railfans. The one big problem is that it doesn't serve the public the way it should because of the route. While under construction, one local radio talk show host dubbed it the "train to nowhere". Also, like I said, Tri-Rail, South Florida's commuter rail line that runs along Amtrak's ROW from West Palm Beach to Miami, is useless because of a lack of feeder and connecting bus lines. No rail line is of any use without a decent bus system. There's no way to get around once you get off the Tri-Rail. South Florida is known as the Tri-County Area. This metropolis is made up of 3 separate counties - Dade (Miami), Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) and Palm Beach (West Palm Beach). Needless to say, the 3 counties run 3 separate bus services which rarely cross county lines. Each very poorly serves its respective county. Better planning could have made public transportation better than it is, but the big problem that New York never faced is that this metro area grew without mass transit. This area is automobile oriented. Its hard to stick a rapid transit line in there after the area already developed around the automobile. If it takes just as long or longer to get to Downtown Miami with the Metrorail as it does to drive, why bother? I'm a 45 minute drive to the Mertorail. Once on the Metrorail, its another half hour. Metrorail parking is $2 (used to be $1) and the Metrorail is $1.25. If where I am going downtown offers me free parking, or parking for a minimal fee, driving is more economical. The drive in rush hour is 1 hour if there's no accidents on I-95. If there is (and there usually is), the drive is 1 1/2 hours. Now, if this area had decent bus service, I could leave my car home, take the bus to Tri-Rail, then Metrorail, and I'm downtown. That would be $1 for the Broward bus, $2 for the Tri-Rail and another $1.25 for the Metrorail. See, the automoblie wins again! Twenty miles worth of gas doesn't cost $4.25.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Don't forget about those of us over here on the East coast of you guys over there in "El Republica de bananas de Miami." There is *NO* form of transit in Collier County. No buses, no rails, no anything. Unless you have a private car, you're stuck using taxis. Lee County has some bus service, but it's unreliable and only goes to a few locations, and it too is expensive compared to driving. Most of the time, the buses in Lee County run empty. The 'transit system', and I use the term loosely, over on the west coast is at least there, no matter how poorly designed it is. As far as politicians getting involved in transit, the Miami Herald (www.herald.com) ran a great series on all of the payoffs, political involvement and screwups of the Miami International Airport, which pretty well summarises how things in S. Florida work.
Don't forget about those of us over here on the East coast of you guys over there in "El Republica de bananas de Miami." There is *NO* form of transit in Collier County. No buses, no rails, no anything. Unless you have a private car, you're stuck using taxis. Lee County has some bus service, but it's unreliable and only goes to a few locations, and it too is expensive compared to driving. Most of the time, the buses in Lee County run empty. The 'transit system', and I use the term loosely, over on the west coast is at least there, no matter how poorly designed it is. As far as politicians getting involved in transit, the Miami Herald (www.herald.com) ran a great series on all of the payoffs, political involvement and screwups of the Miami International Airport, which pretty well summarises how things in S. Florida work.
My main purpose for coming out with all of this is to let all the people on SubTalk from my native New York know how fortunate they are to have the extensive, elaborate transit system (rapid transit and bus) that they have. They should think of what things are like elsewhere in the country when they go through a delay or miss a train and start to complain about service. Also, they should appreciate what they have and to stop wanting elevated lines torn down. Some of the people on this forum would really like to see the system in NYC trimmed. "There's not enough ridership on this line. Tear it down and replace it with a bus", or "Its just duplication of service. Is the line really needed anymore"? The transit system should not be taken for granted. Every line is important and should be kept, because once its gone, its gone...for good.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Figure what the fed s say how much per mile to run a car, ask your accountant
I read the Amtrak will upgrad the FEC in the next couple years and run the Miami Trains down they way it was done in the 50s.
I'm planning on taking a vaction to Miami this summer. So, should I even make an effort to ride the Metrorail at all?
I'm planning on taking a vaction to Miami this summer. So, should I even make an effort to ride the Metrorail at all?
Yes, definately, but not for transportation. Just ride it because you're a railfan. Once you get downtown, don't forget to ride the Metromover. That isn't so useless. Its a good way of getting around the Downtown area and its only a quarter. Visit the Metro-Dade web site at http://www.metro-dade.com/mdta/home.htm for more information on Metrorail, Metromover and Metrobus.
Business areas thrive under els, because their signs carch the eye of the riders so they get off and go shopping in the neighborhood. Its the residential area that are cheapened by els!
Business areas thrive under els, because their signs carch the eye of the riders so they get off and go shopping in the neighborhood. Its the residential area that are cheapened by els!
But even in the residential areas, there are lots of stores lining the street that the el runs over.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Elevated railways don't create a slum or blighted condition - people do. Elevated lines and residential areas are not incompatible; "By The El" offers plenty of photographic proof. True, elevateds affect land use for a 1/2 block or so on either side of the corridor. They do create objectionable noise, shadows, etc. And we shouldn't build any more of them. But where they exist they should be retained. The access they provide has an overall favorable impact on real eatate in the 1/4 to 1/2 mile or so corridor on either side.
I feel there's also a strong correlation that can be made between demographics and transit access. In several cases in New York (upper east side) and Boston (Charlestown), land values skyrocketed after the els were removed. But does this indicate that the els had a negative connotation, or does it indicate that once access was compromised, the transit-dependent moved out, and those with mobility options moved in? One could certainly argue that affordable housing in Yorkville has gone the way of the Third Ave el! Perhaps many current residents of communities where els once ran would rather not mingle with the transit-dependent. They want transit at arms length, when and if needed, and in someone else's backyard. What they want close by is a parking space.
So is the el friend or foe? To a public official counting real estate tax revenue, a foe. To development interests, a foe. To a working person in need of affordable housing and access to jobs, a friend.
I grew up 3 blocks from an El and the el station was the center of the community; the newsstands, convenience stores, delis, and drug stores were all clustered around the station, and plenty of people lived near or beside the el with few complaints. They were used to it and accepted it as a necessary inconvenience of urban life, and in many cases, vigorously protested efforts to either tear it down or curtail service.
Urban expressways did far more to blight our cities than any elevated train ever did. Brooklyn's Third Avenue is the textbook example. I think a lot of the academic thinking that links depressed land values and social blight with elevated lines is misguided. It relies on the old premise that the poor will be made un-poor if their surroundings are altered, yet this has been proven not to be true.
Conrad - as always you have made some very good points. The els are certainly an asset to those people who cannot afford other forms of transportation, and provide safer access than subways since there are fewer corridors and so forth. If you take a ride through JP, Roxbury or Charlestown there is some evidence left. The business areas cluster around Green, Egleston, Dudley, Northampton and Thompson while (the new) Green, Stoney Brook, Ruggles, Massachusetts, and Community College are transit islands in the middle of nothing.
Hi Gerry:
You made some excellent points re: Jamiaca Plain in particular. Also a component of this is that a lot of land was cleared for the southwest corridor I-95 extension that never materialized. Some "infill" may de desirable here to regain that sense of community.
There are also some examples where the removal of els had the exact opposite of the intended affect; such as Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn. One could argue that the area actually declined in terms of economic prosperity once the transit lifeline was removed. They say the el lost its raison d'etre when the Navy Yard closed, but really ridership stayed about level all through the 1960s. Some blips, but those trends were systemwide.
Unlike Manhattan's Third Avenue, the market forces and demographics on Myrtle Ave weren't the same, nor was the timing. Removing the el wasnt the quality of life boost that many of the academic types thought.
Only recently is Fort Greene starting to become hot in the real estate market, long after Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope (and parts of Crown Heights) regained popularity. Reason: These areas have excellent transit.
I think that developers love to make pariahs out of elevated structures. Problem is, when they're gone, the high density development that often goes in creates the demand for the very infrastructure that was removed in the first place! A case of the tail wagging the dog. Its happening in Chelsea today, with the NY Central RR "High Line", that seems to be on life support. Time was that they built office buildings on top of mobility infrastructure (eg, Bell Labs) not to replace it! Sad, transit hasn't led development since the 1920s, in the US at least.
I think the upper east side is a desirable place to live, and would be so with or without the Third Ave el. The postwar demographic shifts that affected the area would have happened anyway, since they were chiefly auto-driven. Removing the el was, in my opinion, perhaps only a small component of a much larger and more powerful market force.
Any thoughts?
If anyone is interested. If you are a member of American Airlines Frequent Flyer program. They are running a special this winter. For only 30,000 miles you could go from anyplace in the USA to anyplace in Europe. The tax is less then $20.00. I am planning to take 10s the first week in Feb to fly over. Use a Eurail Pass and travel thru Europe just to ride trains and subways. I am planning to fly most likely in and out of Frankfurt from JFK. Anybody interested, As a travel Agency Owner. (I am not trying to drum up business) I get a discount up to 75 poct off the rail passes. Anybody want to come, 2 or more people, get a better rail pass. I intend to ride the TGV, The ICE and some other fast ELECTRIC Trains
But are the two el stations that are talked about upthread Scienxe Park and North Station? I know that North Station is to be replaced by new tracks in the Orange line station.
Currently, the Green Line emerges from its tunnel just after Haymarket, and goes elevated for North Station, Science Park, and then to the at-grade Lechmere terminal station. The construction currently under way will replace the Haymarket-Science Park section of the el with subway. The new North Station "superstation" will include cross-platform transfers with the Orange Line North Station station. The Green Line will emerge from the subway before crossing the Charles River just (system) west of Science Park.
What will be finished first, the big dig or the subway construction? Are the two tied together?
In NYC we're talking about a LIRR GCT connection and a Second Avenue subway or stubway. We're also talking about doing something about the Gowanus in Sunset Park, either tunneling it or reconstructing the viaduct. Doing a lot of talking...no building.
In Boston, you guys are doing something. It's a holy mess now but in 5-10 years it'll be a sight to behold. Or so I hear.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
The two are indeed tied together. The "superstation" at North Station is adjacent to the Central Artery (part of I-93) which is being changed from an el to a subway itself. Much of the "superstation" construction could not be done until the sidewalls for the highway were in place. The station is due to open in two years, about a year before the highway.
It will certainly be a welcome relief for North Station commuters like your humble weatherguy. Currently, when transferring from the Commuter Rail to the Green Line, you must physically leave the terminal building, walk outside, then up a stair case to the el. The "superstation" will allow for an indoor transfer.
"It will certainly be a welcome relief for North Station commuters like your humble weatherguy. Currently, when transferring
from the Commuter Rail to the Green Line, you must physically leave the terminal building, walk outside, then up a stair case
to the el. The "superstation" will allow for an indoor transfer."
I'm really looking forward to it. Kind of reminds me of the connection between the E/J/Z and LIRR.
N Broadway Line
There is no indoor connection between the Subway and the LIRR at Sutphin. You have to go outside from the subway escalator although the LIRR entrance is only a few feet away.
"Currently, the Green Line emerges from its tunnel just after Haymarket, and goes elevated for North Station, Science Park,
and then to the at-grade Lechmere terminal station. The construction currently under way will replace the Haymarket-Science
Park section of the el with subway. The new North Station "superstation" will include cross-platform transfers with the Orange
Line North Station station. The Green Line will emerge from the subway before crossing the Charles River just (system) west
of Science Park."
I saw these plans earlier. This is wonderful!
N Broadway Line
So Science Park will be gone too? That's a shame, concrete els are fun.
No, the line will come up from the subway just (system) west of Science Park, before the Charles River bridge, so it remains as is.
I heard that the Lechmere terminal will also be redone within the
next 5 years.
What will happen with it?
The Lechmere terminal replacement will be done at the same time as the full Second Ave. subway in NYC.
Hey! You Bostonians are spending BILLIONS to replace an old el and even more to underground a freeway. Your city has the guts to take on big projects.
Hey! You Bostonians are spending BILLIONS to replace an old el and even more to underground a freeway. Your city has the guts to take on big projects.
More accurately, Boston had Tip O'Neill who got the money for the Big Dig appropriated when he was Speaker of the House as a gift to his hometown.
Not that it's not a good idea -- bury the freeway AND (after much pressure), put structure below the buried freeway for a future tunnel to connect North & South Stations and allow thru-running of trains from the NE Corridor up to Maine -- but the money is largely Federal funds and it wouldn't have happened w/out Tip O'Neill.
Note to our Boston SubTalkers: Has there been any further action on the North-South Connector? (I assume it WAS built under the freeway after the funding was appropriated?)
According to the Big Dig website, the only MBTA thing built in conjunction with the freeway is some electric bus system, it even mentions that the north south connection is separate:
Is the North-South Rail Link part of the Central Artery project
The North-South Rail Link is a proposed tunnel connecting Boston's two major rail terminals, North Station and South Station. It is not part of the Central Artery project, nor is it funded beyond modest amounts for a feasibility study, which is managed by the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority. The alignment of the Rail Link doesn't match the alignment of the underground Central Artery, but there are a couple places where the two corridors cross. The Central Artery project has promised to do nothing that would preclude the Rail Link, and where the two projects intersect the Central Artery design makes allowances for a rail tunnel to pass beneath.
According to the Big Dig website, the only MBTA thing built in conjunction with the freeway is some electric bus system, it
even mentions that the north south connection is separate:
Is the North-South Rail Link part of the Central Artery project
I know MBTA isn't building the North-South Rail Link. In fact, I don't think anyone is right now.
My understanding was that they sunk walls for the Link under the lowest level of the sunken freeway. Funds will have to be found in the future to excavate between the walls to make it a tunnel, as well as to link to the ROWs at both stations. That said, at least the walls are (supposed to be) there.
Again, Boston SubTalkers: Can you update/correct/further elucidate?
That's what the website says. Where the highway and proposed rail line intersect, they build a provision for the rail line.
Unfortunately, the North-South Rail link is as good as dead. There's room for it under the new Central Artery construction, but no money allocated at all. What a shame...
The el was replaced more than ten years ago.
Billions to depress the Central Artery? Yes. Needed? Yes. New York could well stand to have its transportation infrastructure improved as well (can you say "Manhattan Bridge"?).
But am I a Bostonian? No. I'm a New Yorker. I just live in Boston.
I'm talking about the North Station Green Line el.
Nice to hear that you come from the greater of the two (or all) cities.
>>The Lechmere terminal replacement will be done at the same time as the full Second Ave. subway in NYC.
Swell--a little somrthing for our grandchildren to look forward to.
If they were to do it, what would it entail? Putting it underground? Extending the line to Union Square?
I stand corrected on the Boston el stations. I had only been in the North Station (green) and Charles St (red) stations and did not know there were more...
In the 1960s New York was still under the Robert Moses influence -- Cars were God, and if you only built one or two more expressways, you would solve all the transportation problems. If Moses had survived a few more years with his power unchecked, the Cross Brooklyn, Lower Manhattan and Cross Midtown Expressways would have gone up, and the traffic problems would be the same as they are now, we would just have had more people commuting by cars.
Thirty years later, even the urban planners in the Sunbelt and Southern California have figured out if you build another highway, people will just move to that area and cram it to its level of intolerence.
Any effort to tear down an el line today with merely the promise of a subway in the distant future (or worse a bus line or highway expansion) would cost politicians their jobs, and they're not going to let that happen.
The Cross-Brooklyn would have been an improvement, it would finally become easier to travel across Brooklyn, and there would be a full truck route. Even though the traffic might have been the same as on the Belt, the C-BK would pose a less roundabout route for many trips.
The Cross-Brooklyn would have been an improvement, it would finally become easier to travel across Brooklyn, and there would be a full truck route. Even though the traffic might have been the same as on the Belt, the C-BK would pose a less roundabout route for many trips.
It would also take a lot of traffic off the Belt.
From
There's no access to the lower level at 42nd and 8th anymore. A more suitable location would be 34th and Broadway, on the unused express tracks.
The R-110's were displayed on the express track at Union Tpke in Queens. While the cars were open for the public, the cab was "off limits." But I showed the conductor my CBS Radio ID, and asked if I could take a few pictures. He said, "sure!" not asking how I would use the pictures on the radio :-)
Radio is the theater of the mind
The R-110's were displayed on the express track at Union Tpke in Queens. While the cars were open for the public, the cab was "off limits." But I showed the conductor my CBS Radio ID, and asked if I could take a few pictures. He said, "sure!" not asking how I would use the pictures on the radio :-)
Just tell him that you're doing one of those old-time radio shows like the Lone Ranger and need the pics for realism on the show ;-)
From
Yeah, I remember the R110B's at Union Tpke. That's the first time I saw them, and I hated them from then on. My first reaction, like almost everyone elses was "What did they do with all the seats?"
I remember that, but I went into the cabs of both sets...don't
remember any trouble. Come to think of it, the vendor was showing
off on one of the units how you can diagnose problems from the
motorman's touch screen. I pressed a few buttons and crashed
it! I wound up at the following prompt: F:\>
If only there were a keyboard, I would have tried DIR!
Jeff, you mean you wouldn't have tried "DEL *.*/Y"? I can see the headline in The Post now... New Tech Subway Train Crashes While on Display!
Oh great, Now you don't have to drive a subway car into a bumper block to "crash" it. You can put a virus in it's onboard computer and crash it from within. Progress, schmogress ...
BTW, are the 'puters on the new R142 Y3K compliant? Wouldn't wanna see the system shut down on New Year's Eve, 2999.
I understand that the R-143's are to be 67 feet long. How many cars will there be to an L Train? A 6 car train (400 feet) would be shorter than the current 8-car 60 foot trains (480 feet). If the R-143's are mated in 3-car sets, I'm not sure a 9 car L train (600 feet) would fit in many Canarsie Line stations. Anyone know the answer?
The cars will be 60 feet long, just like what's running on the L line now. They will be arranged in 8-car consists (2 four-car sets).
David
[I understand that the R-143's are to be 67 feet long. How many cars will there be to an L Train? A 6 car train (400 feet) would be shorter than the current 8-car 60 foot trains (480 feet). If the R-143's are mated in 3-car sets, I'm not sure a 9 car L train (600 feet) would fit in many Canarsie Line stations. Anyone know the answer?]
Thanks David. I had thought the final decision was for 60 foot cars, but others had advised me they would be 67 feet. I believe 60 footers make more sense for the Eastern Division.
Thanks David. I had thought the final decision was for 60 foot cars, but others had advised me they would be 67 feet. I believe 60 footers make more sense for the Eastern Division.
Why? The BMT Standards were 67' long and ruled the Eastern Division, including the 14th St. Line.
From
I believe the longest trains in the Eastern Division in the days of the Standards were 6 car trains (400 feet). Today's 8 car trains of 60 foot cars give us a 480 foot train. As my first post in this thread indicated, if the R-143's were 67 foot cars, it would be difficult to figure out the number of cars in each train. 7 car trains would be closest to today's (469 feet vs. 480 feet). I don't know whether 8 car trains of 67 foot cars would fit into all stations. Thus, 60 foot cars seem better suited for the E.D., as 8 car trains will be maintained.
Six car trains of AB's was the norm on the run from Chambers St to Metropolitan Ave during rush hour. Eight car rush hour trains ran from Broad St to 168th St in Jamaica.
Hmmmm. That would mean the platforms on the Broadway and Jamaica lines were at least 536 feet long. With an 8-cer train of 60-footers, you'd have 56, perhaps 60 feet of extra platform length.
IIRC, a 6-car train of BMT standards would just fit in a station on the Canarsie line.
The stations on the J and M lines (elevated) are 550' long. Theoretically, they could support 9 car trains of 60' cars. The Canarsie line stations have to be at least 500' in length. A 6 car BMT standard train was 402', 78 feet shorter then today's 8-car trains of R40/42's.
Todays Metropolitan Ave. M line station is 480' from the stop car marker at the bumper block back to the dispatchers office. It's all imatesticle since the R143 will be 60' cars linked into a 4 car set.
People have stated that the M line (old #10) never used 8 car trains of standards, only 6 car trains. That's funny, because all the remaining stations are 550' in length, the same as all other BMT subway stations.
The length of Metropolitan Ave. M line station became exactly 480' by virtue of the station rebuild due to the mid 1970's fire in which the station and 4 R27/30's were destroyed.
I've seen pictures of the Metropolitian Ave station dated after that 1976 fire (as late as 1982), and the station was still un-rehabbed. I wasn't aware that the July 4th fire was on a train in the station. I thought it happened in the FP yard.
The length of Metropolitan Ave. M line station became exactly 480' by virtue of the station rebuild due to the mid 1970's fire in which the station and 4 R27/30's were destroyed.
But the fire didn't burn the end of the station. It burned somewhere in the middle, about 2/3 the way down from the front. Point is that both ends of the station were intact after the fire.
From
But the entire station was rehabbed (wooden platform replaced by concrete) several years after that fire, and shortened to 480'.
But the entire station was rehabbed (wooden platform replaced by concrete) several years after that fire, and shortened to 480'.
Why did they shorten it. That makes no sense at all. Now you can just bearly fir 8 60' cars in there. There had to be a reason why the platform was originally longer.
From
Because all BMT stations were built to handle 8-car trains of standards. All other stations along the M line are 550'. The TA probably thought that 480' trains were all that were ever gonna run on that line, I guess.
Because all BMT stations were built to handle 8-car trains of standards. All other stations along the M line are 550'. The TA probably thought that 480' trains were all that were ever gonna run on that line, I guess.
Bad planning. As long as the station was already 550', leave it alone. Don't shorten it. You never know when they may need the extra length again.
From
Hmmm, how many people will be crying that exact same phrase about the Franklin Ave. shuttle if/when the Manhattan Bridge collpases into the East River ...
Hmmm, how many people will be crying that exact same phrase about the Franklin Ave. shuttle if/when the Manhattan Bridge collpases into the East River ...
That's when you'll see the Franklin Shuttle double-tracked for its entire length and the station platforms lengthened to ten cars. They will probably run thru service from Franklin Ave. to Stillwell, so Brighton riders can get the A into Manhattan.
From
Actually, if you go to Park Place, you can see that there's a little bridge connecting the mezzanine and the platform, about as long as a trackway is wide. The only problem here is building an ADA accessible over/underpass.
That would be correct. Since the entire platform had to be modernized (wood to concrete), along with a new dispatchers office & crew room being built and the diamond crossover being located just beyond these, a platform longer than 480'would have simply added an additional monetary cost to the project.
I wish they would build a new crew room at Metropolitan Ave. Maybe I would pick back there.
Now when I think about it, there was some additional room at stations on the Canatsie line with a 6-car train of BMT standards. It didn't seem as though there was an additional 150 feet, however. When the R-7/9s started to appear, 7-car trains was the norm.
It's safe to assume that Southern Division BMT platforms were also 550 feet long originally. You can plainly see where they were lengthened along the Broadway line.
Also in Brooklyn, at 7th Ave on the Brighton line, with it's ugly 60's tiled extension at the southern end. That station needs a serious facelift.
I believe the longest trains in the Eastern Division in the days of the Standards were 6 car trains (400 feet). Today's 8 car trains of 60 foot cars give us a 480 foot train. As my first post in this thread indicated, if the R-143's were 67 foot cars, it would be difficult to figure out the number of cars in each train. 7 car trains would be closest to today's (469 feet vs. 480 feet). I don't know whether 8 car trains of 67 foot cars would fit into all stations. Thus, 60 foot cars seem better suited for the E.D., as 8 car trains will be maintained
Seven 67' cars on a train would be just fine. The BMT subway was built for 67' cars, particularly the 14th St. Line. The 60' car is an IND concept. The BMT did just fine without 60' cars for many years.
From
I have seen pictures of 8-car BMT Standards running on the J line, so they must've been capable of using trains that length (536')
I have seen pictures of 8-car BMT Standards running on the J line, so they must've been capable of using trains that length (536')
So, eight cars is even better than 7. My main point was that it isn't a problem having 67' cars on the Eastern Division. They don't have to use 60' cars. The BMT was built for 67' cars.
From
If these cars are going to be hooked up into 4 car sets, this would basically make them impossible to run anywhere in the system other than the J/M and L lines, because they can't be made into 10 car trains. Well, maybe the C train ...
The trains would be capable of being installed in 3, 4 or 5 car sets, just like the R-142 can be configured in 4, 5 and 6 car sets.
WINS News is reporting ANOTHER megamerger, this time BNSF and CN!!! The new name will be 'North American Railway'
-Hank
Just what exactly is a "regular" train, anyway?
I never really could understand the general attitude of american rasilfans against a)rapid transit operations and even more so b)electric rail lines. It seems most railfans seem to think electric = trolley = light rail, then get excited about 6000hp diesels, even though a 6000hp locomotive is hardly news - it wouldn't have been 50 years ago either.
Not a flame, just an observation...
I never really could understand the general attitude of american rasilfans against a)rapid transit operations and even more so b)electric rail lines. It seems most railfans seem to think electric = trolley = light rail, then get excited about 6000hp diesels, even though a 6000hp locomotive is hardly news - it wouldn't have been 50 years ago either.
Not a flame, just an observation...
When it comes to railfanning, it all boils down to personal taste. some like long distance railroads. This can be divided into steam vs. diesel, and also passenger vs. freight. Some like rapid transit. Some like trolleys. Some like it all. Because I was raised on the NYCTS, I'm a rapid transit enthusiast. It doesn't mean that I don't like trolleys or long distance railroads. My personal preference is rapid transit. I don't criticize the Santa Fe enthusiast. Let the Santa Fe freak not criticize me, the BMT enthusiast. Hey, again - among rapid transit enthusiasts in New York, some like the BMT, some the IRT and some the IND. Some like it all. I do like it all, but my first love in transit is the BMT. My thing is the Standards and Triplexes. I don't care for the modern equipment too much, but I'm not going to put down the R-46 fan, or even the R-68 fan. People need to respect others' personal tastes. Buses don't do anything for me, but if you like 'em, great! Have fun. More power to ya! That's why Dave has BusTalk on the site as well as SubTalk. Some people are into buses.
From
I'm into overhead wire and third rail myself; i. e., streetcars/LRVs and subways. Electric traction, if you will. While there are notable narrow gauge railways here in Colorado, they do nothing for me.
Personally, I like 'em all
I guess I'll have to get used to calling the CN Tower the North American Railway Tower. It just doesn't have the same ring to it. So, seriously, will they change the name of the tower in Toronto?
Won t that take the approval of both Govts for the merger?
NARCO tower, There, Doesn't that sound better
I received word from a colleague regarding Bombardier R142 Car Deliveries. New R142s are being delivered by CP from the Plattsburgh Facility via Selkirk Yard up in Albany to Oak Point Freight Yard in the Bronx via Metro North's Hudson Line. CSX takes the cars over the remainder of the trip to Fresh Pond Yard to be picked up by the NY and Atlantic Rwy and head to Linden Yard or the Brooklyn Piers.
It all makes sense now. Now I see why a solo R142 went into Oak Point Yard, and that was to test the feasibility of delivering the cars through that Freight Yard. It's a success and I'd expect future R142 car shipments to come by way of the Bronx.
Ironic, ain't it? The R142s are passing their Kawasaki counterparts on the way to Brooklyn. I can't help but wonder why the Kawasaki's couldn't travel by flatcar to Brooklyn, except that the MTA wants to get the cars into TA property as quickly as possible.
Travelling by truck to 239th St Yard from Yonkers is not a long trip depending on how you get around. Can anyone from 239th St yard tell us exactly how the cars are unloaded? By a subway car ramp, perhaps, or is a crane used to place the car onto the tracks? Plus, are the cars being delivered during the day, or at night, when traffic's at a minimum?
-Stef
New R142s are being delivered by CP from the Plattsburgh Facility via Selkirk Yard up in Albany to Oak Point Freight Yard in the Bronx via Metro North's Hudson Line.
So does this mean they use the single-track Oak Point Connector? Now THAT'll be a sight: brand-new R142s just feet above the shiny surface of the Harlem River!
Have you read my post this past this weekend? Well R142 was to post to delivered today 12/20 at Linden Yard by NY&A. Just like Stef said from his post.
Peace Out
Dave Meaney
PS: You people think im making a false information about R142 heading to Linden Yard? I get this information from NYCBUSNEWS.
Who said that? No one's accusing you of making a false statement. I'll accept your word as valid.
Cheers,
Stef
Right!!!! The alternative for them would be to use the old Port Morris connector which might not even clear for the subway cars mounted on flats. I can see it coming.... The cars can't travel around the Harlem River so they go to the Port Morris track. We then find out through Metro North's scanner, something's going on. "Hey Bob, we'll be sitting here for a few minutes. We have a bunch of subway cars tying up the railroad!!!" That's what I call unique...
-Stef
On the Field Trip on Sunday we discussed the possibility of the next field trip. Some ideas were tossed around, and it seems best to open the floor to all the suggestions and perhaps we can have one once a month or so. It is nice to get together with everyone and pursue our mutual passion without others who enjoy it.
I have January 9th free. The following week I have to leave town. Any ideas?
On the Field Trip on Sunday we discussed the possibility of the next field trip. Some ideas were tossed around, and it seems best to open the floor to all the suggestions and perhaps we can have one once a month or so. It is nice to get together with everyone and pursue our mutual passion without others who enjoy it.
I have January 9th free. The following week I have to leave town. Any ideas?
Everyone's pretty much settled on having another Polo Grounds Walking Tour on 1/16/2000 at 11 AM - 167th St. station #4 Train.
From
Peggy Darlington & I have been tossing some ideas for the Spring. Sometime shortly after the second trip to the Polo Grounds we'll post something.
BTW, David I agree "Field Trips" with some new & old friends are one of the pleasures of this hobby.
Mr t__:^)
I'd vote for the SPRING!! Field trips in the winter outside of the subway is not my cup of tea.
I propose a Winter Field Trip contingent on the next
heavy ice storm or crippling snow storm. The trip
will be out to Far Rockaway, and we would ride up
and back from Howard Beach to Broad Channel hoping
that the train would become disabled and lose power
between stations. We would bring sleeping bags, a
PortoSan facility, gas barbeque, cell phones, a cord
of kindling wood for a nice fire, Monopoly and
Trivial Pursuits, as well as one of the portable
e-mail communicators, so that we could keep the rest of SubTalkers who are chained to their middle class
comforts in the middle of winter, apprised of our
adventures.
Sounds like a good plan. The only train that we can depend on for some kind of descent failure would probably be a consist of R-68s.
I'm game. BTW, we would have to of course find some interesting railfans of the opposite sex since I enjoy a good game of strip poker;-)
Would you settle for a train of R-44s instead?
Heypaul,
Nice idea. I'll provide the storm.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
heytodd, that would be great if you arrange a date for a storm. This way we could have a large turnout, and perhaps have the whole train to ourselves. We would of course stay tuned to WCBS here in New York, and WBZ in your fair city of Boston. In fact maybe we could also do a whole phone link-up with the network.
I'm thinking of maybe getting a set of R9's from the TA, which is very unlikely. How about the R9 out of your museum, and maybe the R9 out of Branford. It would be a nice reunion of the two. Maybe we could latch on a set of the brand new 142's, in case we run out kindling wood, we could torch those cars.
If only somehow there would be enough power to keep one air compressor humming, I'd be happy to stay in the cars forever. If Dougie wants, he can play cards with a few willing partners. I'd be happy enough to curl up in a fetal position and listen to the throbbing of the compressors.
Good luck. Winter has apparently been outlawed by the no-fun mayor the last few years...
"And now for something completely different" ...
Seriously I've taken a few rides on a Red Bird & LIRR in a snow storm, it is a completely different experience, and nice, provided the train doesn't get stalled.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, certainly another Far Rockaway trip would be something to consider.
Also, don't forget to keep a weekend free in late Spring/early Summer for the Bay Ridge Walking Tour (Western sections).
Doug aka BMTman
I for one would be happy to do both !
Re: subway to beaches of Rock & Long ... this time we'll take the IND local to catch more of the stops the Peggy suggested AND we'll make sure it's sunny so we can play some volley ball at Long Beach.
Mr t__:^)
I put up more of the pics that Jodi and I took on the 9th Ave trip...
here!
Dave, of course, feel free to include them in the section when it's updated.
-Hank
I put up more of the pics that Jodi and I took on the 9th Ave trip...
here!
Dave, of course, feel free to include them in the section when it's updated.
-Hank
Thanks, Hank. You satisfied my curiosity about some of the things that have been posted since Sunday on SubTalk. Do you have any idea what the stairway in the tunnek that's bricked up at the top leads to?
The former fare control area. Now it leads into the back of a laundromat. The area where the brick is missing, we think, is the results of an attempt to break into the laundromat. (I guess someone was desperate for clean clothes). The dark brown wall behind the brick is added protection from such a break-in attempt.
--Mark
Hank,
What great shots! I wasn't with you guys but can just about feel the
excitement by looking at the pix. Sort of like an archeological find.
Does the substation still exist, other than the plaque? The MTA should
museum that piece of history. And to think people live (or used to) right above those tunnels, without knowing what was underneath.
When I was there in 1964/65 as a kid, we could look out over the Deagan from the station and see the old bridge that was taken away years later.
Again, great shots.
Joe C
Does the substation still exist, other than the plaque?
Yes, it does and with the modern supports for some of the cabling, it looks like it's still in use.
--Mark
Many new models are being detailed at the Kawasaki Yonkers Plant. Everyone knows about the R-142, and the LIRR dual level coaches. However, does anyone down in Maryland know what the deal is with the MARC cars (Maryland Area Rapid Something????). They have been going through testing and Installations for about six months now, and every time one is finished, CSX takes it up to the old Conrail Croton Harmon Freight Yard, and they just sit there. This yard is easily accesible and viewable, and they have been sitting in the same exact place for many months now. Does anyone have any idea when they are going down south?????
I've got some pics of those at www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new
-Hank
Maryland Area Rail Commuter (MARC)
It's my understanding that MARC has rejected them over quality issues and that the matter is in arbitration.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"....MARC cars (Maryland Area Rapid Something????)."
Maryland Area Railroad Commuter.
Maryland Area Railroad Commuter? Was that name devised by the same people who came up with Amtrak's official name, National Railroad Passenger Corporation? They would make more sense as Maryland Area Commuter Railroad and National Passenger Railroad Corporation.
From where "commuter" or "passenger" is located in these names, they sound more like passenger-advocacy organizations than railroads. At least MARC has the excuse that they were devising an acronym that is both pronounceable (the "proper" name would probably come out "Macker" or "Macer") and useful in ad slogans ("Hit the mark with MARC" or some such). Amtrak has no such excuse with NRPC.
Hi John Bredin. I notice you are not using Esq. Does that mean something?
MARC actually stands for MAryland Rail Commuter. MARC belongs to Mass Transit Administration (MTA; sound familiar?) of Maryland, which also has Baltimore Light Rail, Subway, and other bus services.
Chaohwa
On the MARC's.......
The actual reason why they are being stored up a Croton is because they got bogged down in testing. The FRA is going over every inch of them because they will be the Fastest Commuter Rail Cars in The Country. I cant remember what line they will be running on, but they will be travelling at speeds of up tp 125mph.
Fred Wilson
Here is the official website of MARC. I don't think the name was devised by the same people who came up with Amtrak's official name, National Railroad Passenger Corporation.
MARC was established by the state of Maryland. Amtrak was established by the federal government.
Chaohwa
The whole acronym thing has gone too far when people start coming up with bad names to have good acronyms. Now they go right to bad names that seem like acronyms (Acela).
I like the Dibert cartoon on the name subject. Dogbert the consultant tells the boss that he has a name for the project that combines the high tech worlds of astronomy and electronics -- "Uranus-hertz." I like it, says the boss.
If I had my way, I would have made a good number of service changes
(assuming 63rd is complete and Manhattan Bridge open)
A - 207th to Far Rockaway: Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn (all times)
B - Coney Island via West End to 168th/Washington Heights: Express in Brooklyn, Manhattan (W 4th to 59th), Local north of 59th (all times except nights)
36th to Coney Island via West End: Local (nights)
C - Bedford Park Blvd - Lefferts Blvd: Local (rush hours)
145th St - Lefferts Blvd: Local (all other times)
D - no changes
E - no changes
F - 179th to Coney Island via Culver: Express in Queens (179th to Queens Plaza), Local in Manhattan, Express in Brooklyn (Jay St to Church Ave). (rush hours, peak direction only on express between Church Ave and Kings Highway)
179th to Coney Island: Express in Queens (179th to Queens Plaza) + Brooklyn (Jay St to Church Ave), Local in Manhattan (all other times)
G - Court Sq to Kings Highway: Local (rush hours)
Court Sq to Church Ave: Local (all other times)
H - Hoyt/Schermerhorn to Rockaway Park: Local (all times)
J/Z - Jamaica Center to Broad St (rush hours, peak direction only on skip-stop with Z between Eastern Parkway and Sutphin Blvd): Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan
J - Jamaica Center to Broad St: Local in Brooklyn and Manhattan (all other times except nights)
Jamaica Center to Myrtle Ave: Local (nights)
K - 21 St/Queensbridge to Eastern Parkway: Local in Manhattan and Brooklyn, skip-stop with J/Z between Myrtle Ave and Eastern Parkway (rush hours and middays)
L - no changes
M - Metropolitan Ave to Bay Parkway: Local (rush hours)
Metropolitan Ave to 9th Ave lower level: Local (all times)
N - Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island via Sea Beach: Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan (all times)
Q - 179th to Coney Island via Brighton, Broadway Express and 63rd: Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan, Local in Queens (all times)
R - 71/Continental Ave to 95th/Fort Hamilton: Local (all times except nights)
36th to 95th: Local (nights)
The Two remaining S Shuttles have no changes. The third has been absorbed into the "resurrected H line."
V - 179th to Smith/9th via 63rd and 6th Ave Local: Local (all times)
1/9 - No changes
2 - Dyre Ave to Flatbush Ave: Local in Bronx + Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan (all times)
3 - 148th to New Lots: Local in Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan (all times except nights)
148th to Utica Ave: Local in Brooklyn and Manhattan (nights)
4 - Woodlawn to Utica Ave: Local in Bronx, Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn (all times except nights)
Woodlawn to New Lots: Local in Bronx and Manhattan, Express in Brooklyn (nights)
5 - E 241 to Flatbush Ave: Express in Bronx (peak direction), Manhattan and Brooklyn (rush hours)
E 241 to Atlantic Ave: Local in Bronx, Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn (all other times except nights)
E 241 to E 180: Local (nights)
6 - Pelham Bay Park to Bowling Green: Express in Bronx (peak direction only), Local in Manhattan (rush hours)
Pelhan Bay Park to Bowling Green: Local (all other times)
7 - no changes
OK, debate all you want...I may have missed some areas here and there.
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
If you are going to have the 3 and 4 both running all night, why bother swapping their terminals (Utica vs. New Lots) at night?
Anyway, it is not possible to have express service to Utica Ave. AND have trains terminating at Atlantic during the same time period.
This is all fantasy anyway, of course. No way will there ever be as much service overnight as you are suggesting. And three services on Fulton St. (A, C, H)? I know it seems like you "need" three to serve the three terminals (Lefferts, Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park), but it seems very unlikely to actually happen.
What they can and should do is fill in the "gaps" in service that occur when switching between day and night service patterns. I pointed out last week that (according to printed schedules, at least) there is a 36-minute gap in service to Dyre Ave. every night around midnight. Similar gaps may exist on other lines. These need to be addressed to ensure that at no time does more than 20 minutes elapse without service at any open station.
Ill give you one fine example. I used to have an A job where my last half trip originated at Lefferts destined for 207. The previous train before mine left at 23:38. My train left at 00:08. The reason on the timetable is the following train, the 00:28 and every one thereafter is scheduled to dropout at Euclid. If service north of Euclid is to be maintained at 20 minutes, the 00:07 out of Far Rockaway due at Euclid at 00:28 will arrive 20 minutes after my train at Euclid, due at 00:18. The reason why Lefferts goes from 20 to 30 and back to 20 minute headways is so the shuttle passengers will not have to wait long for a thru train to Manhattan. The downfall is the 30 minute wait for three stations the TA doesn't care for. If I were the MTA boss, I'd bring the Jamaica BMT back to midtown and maybe throw the JFK Express back to the pick boards.
You know Harry, I just came from working with some kid on really hard SAT Math Questions. Maybe I'm burnt out from some of those problems, but your explanation about intervals just blew right by me.
I think you should submit that to Tom and Ray on Car Talk as a Puzzler.
If I were MTA boss, being a bit of a railfan, I would make the subway lines self service. Issue every customer a brake handle, reverser key, or whatever else you need, and let them take the first available train out on their own. This way we would eliminate many labor problems, and we would give the customers, especially railfans, a decent window to look out of.
In other words, you are a WEP supporter for mass transit. Who will determine which WEP will get the railfan window in the front and in the rear. Make sure if you get to run the MTA that my window contains chicken wire.
What's with the WEP workers, Harry? I'm talking about letting fare paying customers drive their own trains. If you're concerned about workers losing their jobs, so I'll have a TWU train operator supervise these unskilled customers. They can watch them through the railfan window. I think you're throwing the WEP worker issue to discredit a carefully thought out idea of mine. And you're also keeping me from posting a newsflash, on which line will have a dedicated R 142 fleet?
[Make sure if you get to run the MTA that my window contains chicken
wire.]
Harry, I'll do better than that -- I'd make sure that heypaul's window contains razor wire!!!
LOL
Doug
Typographical error due to my miscalculation of actual running time. The 00:07 out of Far Rockaway has a running time to Euclid of 31 minutes, not 21. The due time at Euclid is 00:38. The Far Rock trains provide 20 minute headways after my departure from Euclid at 00:18. The Far Rock thru trains follow the Lefferts shuttle within a minute or two.
I woulr run V to kings Hwy and the G Only to Church Ave, so McDonald Ave would have bothe Local and Express to the City
I can assure you based on my experience the answer is: Whatever will get the maximum productivity (aka cab time) out of train operators and conductors.
Last weekends fire brings up an interesting question.....
LIRR uses the same style 3rd Rail as the TA, The shoes draw power off the top of the rail, Whle MNRR uses the opposite. The shoes draw power from the bottom of the rail.
Now, is Penn set up with tracks for Amtrak's Locos with bottom drawn third rails, or can They draw from both the top and bottom of the third rail?
It is quite interesting because Many Amtraks run on MNRR track upstate, however they all go into penn. How do they do it? Or does penn just let them run in Diesel mode?
All Amtrak engines had their shoes changed to overrunning when they moved to Penn. Overrunning 3rd rail is in the connecter tunnel to the westside as well as in the Hudson Tubes to the portal.
As soon as Amtrak clears the connector tunnel (but is still under buildings) they turn on the diesel engine and inbound just before the enter the tunnel they turn it off. I have a tape of an FL9 into NYP that shows this from the cab (gets quite when the prime mover shuts down).
I have heard of unconfirmed rumors that sometimes they run diesel all the way when they have problems with switching.
The contact shoes can be rigged up or down as needed. In MNCRR territory the overiding shoes are rigged up to clear the third rail.
And it's true about them running on diesel all the way to NYP. I have seen it many times. The engineers are leery of gapping the engine when heading through the interlocking at the head of the platforms. It gets embarrasing to have to call for help when your train stalled because you went to slow to coast through the gap.
I went through this when I worked the FL9AC engines under warranty. It was a fight sometimes to get the engineers to run in third rail mode. But how else were we to learn if the equipment functioned properly?
Yes, the genesis are quite amazing machines, I have the Manuals for them that I got at MNCRR. I beleive they were one of the best (if not THE best) Purchases the MTA has made in a long time. However that means only the genesis would be able to do something like that..... what do Amtraks older dual modes (FL's??) do? They either have to run full diesel from Croton-Harmon or New Haven into penn, then switch to electric, or Vice Versa.....Any ideas? Also, how does NJ Transit draw power, from the top like the TA, or from the bottom?
NJTransit trains(into NYC) use overhead catenary.
Only Genesis units operate on the Hudson line. The FL9's if they even have any left were run the same way. On diesel power until the tunnel. On the NEC trains only electrc power is used, E60 or AEM 7 locomotives.
When did they take out the Last FL9 s from the Hudson Div. I saw plenty of them back in June???
I think he meant FL9 on Amtraks Hudson Division. MN Still has plenty at Croton
Amtrak FL9's are gone from revenue service, they are now on work trains that work the Emprie Corridor.
Dosen't running on Diesel all the way to Penn Station: New York violate the 1906 ban on exaust producing locomotives in New York City? I have been told repeatidly that the law is still eneffect. Arethe railroads breaking the law? Could this be the Mayor's next big crusade, cleanup those smelly diesel locomotives viciously polluteing his fair city? (I wouldn't mind, I hate "exaust" producing locos. LONG LIVE THE ELECTRIC!!)
The no overhead wire for trolleys law could've been used by opponents to hamper the idiotic 42nd Street Trolley idea.
The TA violates it every day hehehe....
On New Haven line, M2/M4/M6s use both third rail and overhead wires. After departing GCT, they change from third rail to overhead canatery before Pelham station.
Amtrak trains and New Haven line trains combine at New Rochelle. There are all overhead wires. Therefore, diesels are unnecessary.
Chaohwa
One would THINK that there is continuous overhead catenary from there to New Haven, but there's not. Every so often the MofW dept will issue PDO's or Pans Down Order's. This is where there is a gap in he catenary and the locomotive has to coast Pans Down through the gap. For the last year and a half at last there hads been a standing PDO for a drawbidge south of Stamford. The overhead just stops and the only thing over the draw span is air The trains have to approach the bridge at like 30mph and coast through the gap. God help the Engineer who does maintan foward momentum. Even more so, God help the Engineer whoforgets about the PDO and has his engine's pantograp snapped off when it hits the insulator at the end of the wire.
That bridge is between Cos Cob and Old Greenwich. It is amazing to watch trains slide through that gap.
Chaohwa
Well, lets pretend . 63rd St is Open, Time for the TA to change things around agai, why not we have not done it since 1967. New Curtains on the trains are in order, since there are more numbers then letters let us go back to numbering Div B(IND/BMT and Letter the Div A(IRT). I already posted one last week, but no one payed attention so I revised it. All you BMT Fans should love this. 1/Q: 2/R: 3/B: 4/N: 5/F: 6/D: 7/FRANKLIN: 8/A-Rockaway: 9/A-Lefferts: 10/M: 11/E: 12/C: 14/Z: 15/J: 16/L 17/Rockaway Shuttle: DIV A(IRT) 1/A 2/B 3/C 4/D 5/E 6/F 7/G 7X/H 9/J Lex Thru Exp-H: 42 Shuttle S. O well, opinions please. and this is only fantasy. Remember in this either cars will get new Curtins or they are using electronic signs-Aloha and Good Night
The A to Lefferts would probably be the 13, since that was the Fulton el., and the D would probably be a branch of the 1, since there was no separate numbers for expresses or locals.
I Used 8 for 8th Ave, and The Q and D will be two seperate Lines, except on the Southern Portion
What is the purpose of the yellow sticks seen in many T/O cabs?
I can think of several reasons.
To kill flies or more specifically yellow jacks.
To pick up train orders from dispatcher offices
To hit customers on the platform as a train pulls into a station
To be held out by the train operator as he pulls into a station to encourage customers to stand clear of edge of the platform.
To serve as a mast for a white flag in case the train comes under attack from Indians, King Kong, or space aliens.
Actually, I think it is to lift a contact shoe from the 3rd rail or something like that.
To hold open the cab door for A/C (R44 and up)
To hold open cab windows for cross ventilation (R44 and up) because the window won't stay open.
To Punch line up buttons because you stopped a wee bit short/long.
To Punch line up buttons because you are a wee bit short yourself.
To bang on the controller because the train won't take power (I have witness this with my own eyes).
To remove Gum from the bottom of your shoe.
As a foot rest, balancing one log on top of it.
If the stick is flat and tapered and around 2' long, it may be the one used to assist with uncoupling cars. You have to start the uncoupling with a wrench from one side, prop the latch open with the yellow stick (or a spike if you don't have the stick), then go to the other side to release the 2nd latch to complete the separation.
Out of all your possibilities, I have only seen train operators use it as a stick to punch line-up buttons.
I've only seen it used to prop open the door.
I would have said all of the above.
It's what we conductors collect from as many cars as possible to use in the construction of a make shift cab seat on R-32 thru R-42 equipment.
It's called a shoe slipper and with it (or a pair) one can
take a car off the third rail by slipping it between the third
rail shoe and the contact rail.
Others have documented the myriad additional uses of this product
Why would one need to take a car off the third rail?
The question was: Why would you want to take a car off the third rail? One guess is that there might be emergency situations where you would want to remove power from a car. Perhaps an electrical fire, perhaps needing to go underneath the car. Those are very far fetched. Another thought would be if you had a lead car that entered onto a section of 3rd rail that was deactivated, and you wanted to prevent power going from a live section to the dead one. This also is a strange situation. I'm sure the guys who work the road know the answer.
I really posted this to suggest another use for the yellow sticks. Years ago, mothers used to threaten kids that if the kid continued to misbehave, they would take him over to a policeman to be punished. Perhaps, mothers could threaten their kids and tell them that the motorman would come out of his cab and spank them with the paddles.
Or now that I got started with this again, being that train operators belong to a special fraternity/sorority, perhaps the yellow paddles are meant to used in the hazing of new train operators. This seems to have a lot of possibilities, because I've noticed that train operators in training, wear the same silly beanies as college students pledging in frats wear.
I once saw a conductor use it to wake up a sleeping passenger when a 5 terminated a Bowling Green. He didn't hit the passenger just started banging it against the wall of the car.
'Under the Sidewalks of New York' mentions it's use as a "defense against hoodlums."
-Hank
The 9th Ave. El page has been updated with pictures from the weekend's Polo Grounds Shuttle field trip, courtesy Mark Feinman and Hank Eisenstein, plus a few pictures of the Macombs Dam Bridge stairs courtesy Timothy Todd.
-Dave
Looks good! I'll get the captions to you for the pictures I took ASAP; figured people would be interested in the pictures right away. Mind if I embellish your trip report some?
Second, to everyone, the group photo is on the 9th Ave page. If you're in the photo and you'd like to be identified, please tell me where in the photo you are (i.e. 5th from left, wearing yada yada yada), and I'll compile that list together as the photo's caption.
--Mark
That's me abve the EE in Street in the 2nd row or 6th person from left in the second row.
I am the handsome one with the blue jacket and the dark glasses in the front.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Handsome? Ha! :)
Jodi and I are the couple all the way over on the right.
-Hank :)
Yes, I remember you being quite distinguished looking :)
--Mark
You guys did a really great Job! Thanks for all the pictures and information.
I'm wearing a cap and leaning with my left elbow on the railing above the "ion" in the word "Station".
I'm the one with the glasses in the back, behind the woman in the red coat and the large, furry black hat.
The 9th Ave. El page has been updated with pictures from the weekend's Polo Grounds Shuttle field trip, courtesy Mark Feinman and Hank Eisenstein, plus a few pictures of the Macombs Dam Bridge stairs courtesy Timothy Todd.
-Dave
Very impressive pics. Very extensive coverage. I got my first look inside the tunnel and at the ornate stairs at 155th St. They just don't make wrought iron railing like that anymore! Probably haven't since the turn of the century.
From
I got a question, does train ran thought the tunnel is under the apartments?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I got a question, does train ran thought the tunnel is under the apartments?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Yes. It is under an apartment building at Sedgewick and its under another apartment building at Jerome-Anderson.
From
Just a minor thing:
The photo credit for pg-ander10.jpg, pg-tunnel07.jpg, and pg-sedgewick11.jpg should be Jodi Levine. Heck, I'm IN pg-tunnel07!
-Hank
I fixed the master db, next time I upload captions this'll be corrected.
-Dave
Jodi says "Wow! You gave me credit? Thanks!" to me, so I will extend her thanks to you.
-Hank
Any info on the 8th Ave (Brooklyn) station on the N line?
Obviously the 7th Avenue exit has been closed for some time - but lately I have seen the gate locks open occasionally, the lights on, and I have heard the sound of power tools inside that area. It also looks like there is a relatively new air conditioning unit in one of the windows.
So the question is (1)what is going on up there, and (2)is there any chance they will reopen the 7th Avenue exit?
I don't know anything specific, but if they've put in an air-conditioner I'd guess they intend to use the area for as employee space (bathroom? broom closet? locker room?), not to repoen it to the public.
I don't know anything either, but I doubt that iw would be used for a bathroom, a locker room or anything like that. Maybe a broom closet, if you're talking about stuff for cleaning.
Waldo- if you're reading this, did you see any work on the entrance from the street? (just wondering)
Did not see any work on the outside entrance - but it is obscured by a high concrete wall about a block long.
I have not been there, but employee locker rooms have A/C. The locker rooms (if that is what is being built) are called "Facillity Rooms" and also usually have a small microwave (bought by employees_, many have a small fridge (Also bought by employees) and a table (transit's). Many also have bottled water (transit supplied)
.
(Or, not renovating landmarked stations.) How many of the original IRT platforms are city landmarks? I know Columbus Circle is one, and it seems to me Bleecker St. may be as well; I wonder if the delay in rehabbing those two stations, and in putting in the longed-for Bleecker underpass, has to do with MTA's desire to avoid as long as possible the added complexity and expense of a project that meets Landmarks' standards. The latter would include hiring an outside architect and a preservationist, winning community-board approval, using only materials that closely match the original spec, and moving utilities rather than building out the wall to enclose them.
I actually am one (of few, I'm sure) who hopes this is the case: the original (white) wall tile at Bleecker St. has this wonderfully delicate blue tinge under the glaze, and I think it's worth saving. The same tile was at Canal St. until this month, when workers started covering it over with cinderblocks and that standard-issue pizza-parlor-bathroom tile they've been using. (Of course, most people would rather be in a clean pizza parlor bathroom than in the old Canal St. Station--I'm not complaining; but I do think Bleecker should be rehabbed more carefully.)
I actually am one (of few, I'm sure) who hopes this is the case: the original (white) wall tile at Bleecker St. has this wonderfully delicate blue tinge under the glaze, and I think it's worth saving. The same tile was at Canal St. until this month, when workers started covering it over with cinderblocks and that standard-issue pizza-parlor-bathroom tile they've been using. (Of course, most people would rather be in a clean pizza parlor bathroom than in the old Canal St. Station--I'm not complaining; but I do think Bleecker should be rehabbed more carefully.)
Remember, though, that Bleecker Street wall tile was screwed up pretty badly by B.O.T. renovation in the Fifties. It's a long, long way from its original state as built.
While I dislike some of the earlier rehabs of original IRT stations (23rd St, mine, is an esthetic and functional disaster area, and they only JUST got the leaks fixed -- not as part of the 1986 rehab), I think the latest ones are right on the mark and convey a jaunty, NYC tone. The W 66th St/Lincoln Center station is particularly jazzy.
Thoughts?
66th St. looks absolutely super. Other than the nod to Lincoln Center on the restored portions, you can't tell the difference from the original tilework.
>>66th St. looks absolutely super. Other than the nod to Lincoln Center on the restored portions, you can't tell the difference from the original tilework.
That's partly because there's so little of the original tilework left on the platforms--the current fare control areas are newly excavated, and the old ones have been walled off for station service rooms. But that's fine, because the new version sure looks great. (Except for the brick veneer between waist level and the floor--the old brick is better.)
33rd St. is another nice job; I like the warm lighting.
I think 33rd Street is probably the best rehab so far. Instead of standard institutional "bathroom" tiles (Spring, Canal), the got flat tiles with the right tint that look just like the original glass tiles. I was disappointed that they didn't use them at Canal. I believe that they used them in the rehabs of Fulton and Borough Hall.
I am impressed with the match of the base tiles that match the buff Nornam brick (1904 IRT book p. 34) of the originals. If they only had a better floor. The grey "ice" tiles are a menace, though they look better than the tan ones at Fulton). The rough ones, like those at Penn Station LIRR level, Grand Central Lex and Shuttle, and B'way Nassau (in progress), aren't as slick, but they still get slipperly. Tiles don't absorb water like concrete.
>> I think 33rd Street is probably the best rehab so far. Instead of standard institutional "bathroom" tiles (Spring, Canal), the got flat tiles with the right tint that look just like the original glass tiles. I was disappointed that they didn't use them at Canal. I believe that they used them in the rehabs of Fulton and Borough Hall.
Hope it's not exactly the same tile as at Borough Hall, since that stuff seems to be breaking itself in half on the walls.... So (to return to my first question), what would be the criteria that lead MTA to use the good tile (at 33rd St.) instead of the dumb-&-ordinary tile (at Canal)? Both stations are original IRT, so it doesn't just depend on historical period. Could it relate to city landmarking, or did they just run out of $ in the Canal St. renovation budget?
I do get a kick out of that new wall of (meaningless?) symbols in the passage leading down to the bridge line platforms at Canal St., btw.
Those are Chinese Good Luck symbols. They have a similar (and bigger) panel of them at Main Street Flushing, only these are Korean good luck symbols. They're pretty interesting.
Wayne
Yes, the Fulton 4/5 station got similar wall tiles. It would be nice if the MTA would take better care of the stations after they're rehabbed. I seem to see broken or missing wall tiles, water damaged walls, peeling ceiling paint, and so on, fairly often in rehabbed stations. Why spend all that money if it's just going to fall apart in 10 years?
The new floor tiles seem to stay MUCH cleaner than concrete (which has gotten really disgusting to walk on in many stations), and I feel pretty comfortable walking across the new rough floor tiles when wet (unlike the smooth gray tiles).
Now if we could get those signs that the London Underground has on platforms telling when the next few trains are coming and where they're headed ...
The reason the floor is cleaner is compliments of Transit:
All stations with tile floors have a second cleaner called an HDC Cleaner (Heavy Duty Cleaning) whose job is to operate a floor scrubber machine- every night. For areas where a scrubber cant reach, hand mopping is done.
For those subtalkers who have never seen the system overnight: you'll see mobile wash and HDC staff doing their jobs!
I invite you to spend a night wandering the system--you'll se a different world in Transit during overnight hours and yes many trains still have standees overnight!
12/24/99
One drawback on those floor tiles is that any kind of trauma or a track worker dropping a large tool on it will crack the tile as suspected. Since those tiles are a done on a special run, replacing tiles down the road won't be a simple. The new tiles will either be off shade or have a different texture. Another words, no match!!
I was riding some R-68's when returning from the 12/19 SubTalk Polo grounds Tour and noticed "patched" sections of linoleum that only didn't match, but the grain ran crossways instead of longways.
Bill Newkirk
It looks better! before the current work the station had 50s type tile at both ends when it was lengthened to hold ten car trains.
Love those plaques at 66th Street! That's real faience there, double-fired terra cotta, the same kind that Grueby made back in 1903.
I tested it by knocking on a new one (with a small tool), then an old one. No difference in the sound produced between the two, ergo, the same material. There are a few original plaques left, you can tell which they are pretty easily - No "LC"'s, and their age kind of shows.
Speaking of restorations - did you see what they did down at Union Square on the "L"? Check out the tile band - it looks brand spanking new. They've obliterated the 75 years worth of grime and filth, and the original colors and details are clearly evident. They should do the same thing at 6th Avenue and Bedford Avenue as well. AND there's a new frieze at 8th Avenue, in the true Canarsie Line style. I DON'T like their choice of colors for it, but what can you do? It's better than some of the originals (i.e. De Kalb, Bedford etc).
Wayne
The Broadway platforms at Union Square have had their tile bands cleaned too, and (I think) a little varnish thrown on top--they really sparkle. I wish the intervention in the IRT station had been as gentle....
I'm always glad that these stations are being rehabilitated, but they have bigger fish to fry at Bleecker St. Weren't they supposed to finally connect the uptown side to the (B),(D),(F) and (Q) a couple of years ago? What happened?
Bob Sklar
I think funds for it are in the next Capital Plan.
Isn't it is always in the NEXT capital plan?
I have examined the R-Contract Roster put out by JoeKorNer as well as the Roster Summary By Type. Though both purport to go back to 1932, they do not reveal a five car train built by The Budd Company and delivered to the Transit Authority in June of 1934. I believe this train was given the number 7002 by the transit authority. It was sold to the "New York City Transit Authority". Is anyone beside me aware of this? If so, why does it not have an R number? Also, does anyone know what happened to the train? Are any pictures available? I'd appreciate any responses by e-mail from knowledgeable sources. Thanks.
There was no New York City Transit Authority until 1953. In 1934 there was the Board of Transportation and its "Independent City Owned Rapid Transit Railroad."
However, neither got the five car train set from Budd. This train was the Zephyr and it was delivered to the privately-owned BMT.
Many thanks to Paul Matus for his quick response pointing out that the BMT acquired this train and that it was a Zephyr. I accessed the page on BMT Oddities and, sure enough, there it was sitting at the Coney Island yard in 1963, as per the photo from David Pirmann.
If Paul doesn't know, no one does!
Glad to see you are still around, Paul. I remember you from the days of Silver Leaf Traction, many, MANY, moons ago.
Joe C
That's a lot to live up to, Joe, but thanks for the praise!
Some of Silver Leaf stuff, and more, is catalogued at rapidtransit.net
This was a Multi-Section cars nicknamed the "Zephyr." It was constructed of stainless steel and built by the Budd Company. It was delivered to the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation on June 28,1934 and was subsequently placed in revenue service on September 6,1934. It was a five section articulated unit which was 168 feet long. It ran on the #13 Fulton Street El until June 12,1940 after which it ran on the #7 Franklin Avenue El until August 4,1954. The car was scrapped in 1958,59 or 60 depending on which source you go by.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry...Did the Zephyr or Green Hornet run on any other of the el lines aside from the Fulton St. line? I do know they both ran on the Franklin Shuttle.
Carl M.
These cars were 10 feet wide. The Fulton and Franklin were the only El's that could take them. The lower Myrtle, Lex, 3rd-5th were for 9 foot cars. Sands St and Park Row were for 10 footers - from cable car days.
Carl:To the best of my knowledge no,which does not mean never. They could not run on any of the lines that could only clear nine foot wide cars as they were ten feet wide. This would rule out the Lexington,Fifth Avenue and Myrtle Avenue El below Broadway. The Green Hornet and Zephyr could be usefully employed on the Fulton Street Line since their 168 foot length would approximate a three or four car BU train. They would have been two short to run on any of they Broadway, Nassau Street or 14 Street Lines as they could not MU. They filled in very nicely on the Franklin Shuttle where each one could replace a three car B Type. They certainly may have seen some through service to Coney Island on the weekends. It was planned for new couplers to be ordered for both units so that they could mu with the Multis. This is why they were renumbered to the top and bottom of the Multi roster respectively. However World War II started and this project came to naught.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry..Apparently, they were ordered solely for the Fulton St. el. Was there some sort of plan to order more of these designs and totally re-equip the line, at some point (had the BMT remained in business)?
Carl M.
Carl,
Actually, the Fulton L platforms had to be cut back to accomodate 10' wide trains. When the Zephyr (I think it was) made its first tryout, it came to grief at one of the Fulton platforms and suffered minor damage.
The Fulton L was the bread-and-butter Eastern Division lines of the BMT. If the BMT had survived, and the Bluebirds successful, I think every line would eventually have gone to 10' widths.
Actually, the Fulton L platforms had to be cut back to accomodate 10' wide trains. When the Zephyr (I think it was) made its first tryout, it came to grief at one of the Fulton platforms and suffered minor damage.
The Fulton L was the bread-and-butter Eastern Division lines of the BMT. If the BMT had survived, and the Bluebirds successful, I think every line would eventually have gone to 10' widths.
How could that be? The platforms on the Fulton St. El were shaved to accomodate 10' wide cars when the BU's that were rebuilt into C-Types went into service. That was before 1934.
From
WHAT??!! You doubt the all-knowning and all-powerful OZ? (Thunder, lightning, etc. etc.)
Yes, the platforms were trimmed in (I believe) 1925 to accomodate the C-types. I can't put my hands on my specs for the C-types, but I'm not sure they were a full 10' over the thresholds.
Still, the point is that the Cs were still 8'9" cars, widening only at the bottom of car sides to help make up the platform gap. Ovreall wider cars were not tried until 1934.
I looked up the incident I referred to and it occurred after the Zephyr and Hornet had been used for a couple of years. The date was April 30, 1936. A train of multis were tried out west of ENY and took the westbound Fulton local to Franklin Ave. At Franklin Ave. the step on side of 7016A was broken and steps on B&C sections bent by striking station platform. About 50 feet of station platform damaged.
Carl: While I am not certain I think that in 1934 the BMT Management had very definite plans to modernize and upgrade their system. They had to develop a car that could operate equally well on the older el structures as well as in the subway. Rebuilding all the el structures to carry AB's or D's would have been prohibitive but on the other hand shaving six inches off a platform edge to accomadate a ten foot wide car would not have cost too much. The platforms on the Fulton Street El had already been cut back for the C-Types back in 1923, these were in effect ten feet wide,so this was the logical place to test the new cars. The Green Hornet and Zephyr could have run in #13 14 St-Fulton St service but there relatively short length would have resulted in servere overcrowding. The actual production models were the 25 Multis which were placed into service on the #13 14 St-Fulton St Line and the #16 14 Street Line. The experimentals suffered the fate of being the odd-men out together with the need for replacement parts to be specially made. We see this today with the R-110B where one three car set has been sidelined to keep the other two sets running.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry..Is that the reason the Multis never ran on the lower Myrtle el? I mean the station widths.
Another question: Is it true that a portion of the Fulton el west of Bway Jct. was reinforced for possible service by the Standards?
Carl M.
Carl: The Myrtle Avenue El from Broadway south would only clear nine foot cars. Reconstruction under the Dual Contracts provided for third tracking the el from Nostrand Avenue east. There may have been some strengthening of the structure for this but I do not know if this was specifically for Standard operation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul Matus and LarryRedbird33 have answered the question regarding the 1934 "Zephyr", delivered to the BMT without benefit of an "R" number.
This was also true of the multi-sectional Blue Birds (Clark, around 1932 or so) and the ogee-roofed 1936 Production MS cars (looked like a cross between an R10 and a D-type), as well as the rarest bird of all, the doomed Green Hornet.
Wayne
Paul Matus and LarryRedbird33 have answered the question regarding the 1934 "Zephyr", delivered to the BMT without benefit of an "R" number.
This was also true of the multi-sectional Blue Birds (Clark, around 1932 or so) and the ogee-roofed 1936 Production MS cars (looked like a cross between an R10 and a D-type), as well as the rarest bird of all, the doomed Green Hornet.
Wayne
The Multi-section cars are from 1934. The Bluebirds were delivered in 1938 and 1940. The Bluebirds weren't called "multisectional". They were known as the "Compartment Cars". Both the Green Hornet and Zephyr were built in 1934 as a design experiment, along with the traditional multi-section car. The traditional multi-section car won out and the new car contract was for the multi's. The Green Hornet (all aluminum) was scrapped in 1943 for the Second World War. It was needed for war materials. All three were lightweights that were designed for speed and to be able to operate on the Fulton St. El, which fit 10' wide cars, but could not stand the weight of the steel subway cars (Triplexes and Standards).
From
as well as the rarest bird of all, the doomed Green Hornet
Umm...
Don't you mean the rarest bug of all? ;-)
What BMT Lines might be referring to is the fact that there was only one Green Hornet and that she spent less then ten years on the system. Its true that there was only one Zephyr and six Bluebirds but they were around for between 15 and 20 or so years even though they were out of service for several years toward their end. I can't think of any class of subway car that lasted as short a time as the Green Hornet. The only conforting part is that she was sacrificied for the war effort,a worthy end for any rail car.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is a picture of a bluebird car at http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/bluebird.html, from Greller's book.
it all begins with the largest rail transit system in the world if the pacific electric railway of metro los angeles orange county san bernadino counties had been left alone the track mileage whould have given london england a run for the money!!!!
i first arrived here in los angeles california fall 1959
at least i was able to see the last of the good old classic trolley cars
running down pico blvd and western avenue with thier own right-of ways well established !!!
the myth of public mass transit in los angeles begins when the motor transportation (diesel & gasoline )
engine bus car and auto plants alon with the oil companies produced
and along with the crooks in government state county federal and
local etc proposed ""THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION!!
their final cencus scam,, THE BUS!!!!
The Pico and the other Narrow Gage Cars in LA Lasted Until 3/31/63. The Long Beach PE Line ended in 1961, and Western Ave NEVER EVER had a street car line on it. The 84 Ran from Hollywood Blvd to Imperial Blvd, and connected to a Gardena City Bus.
oh well i do remember pico it ran to the ols SEARS BUILDING
next door to it and now ( isnt this something )
the same lot is a BUS TRANSFER LOT with mta buses ( formerly rtd )
and then THE BIG BLUE BUS OF SANTA MONICA BUS LINES.......
in the same spot where the pico and other trolleys ran
when i first came to los angeles i remember pico maybe i mistaken olympic blvd i lived on serrano st between 12 and 11th streets.
there was another trolley near pico-- olympic.... ok western ave. did not have it... but there was maybe wilshire blvd......
and i did see the last red car line !!!!
on the pico trolley there was a transfer station to another trolley line where the santa monica and la metro buses transfer now
question where did that other trolley go ???
Willie. These are the final LA Trolley Lines in 1963 J-Jefferson Blvd Huntington Pk. Ran from 10th Ave and Jefferson to Grand, North on Grand, to 7th, East on 7th Thru Downtown, I don t remember the streets in ran on the East Side. thru Santa Fe Ave, Vernon, To Huntington Pk to South Gate. P-W Pico-East First. That is the one that started at Sears on Pico and Rimpau, East on Pico to Broadway, North on Broadway, East on First to East LA. R-West 3rd. Started at By Wilton Place and 3rd, East on 3rd to Vermont, South on Vermont to 7thy, East on 7th to East LA. S-Was the one that started on either 7th or 8th and Western. Then East Thru Downtown. 3 Lines ran East and West on 7th St. No Car line went as far as LaBrea. Also th V-Vernon-Vermont Started at Monroe St in the middle of LACC, South on Vermont, to Vernon, then East on Vernon to Santa Fe Ave in the City of Vernon. I hope that helped Bob
The P line was the busiest streetcar line and always got the newest equipment when PCCs began arriving. The all-electric P-3 Big PCCs ran exclusively on the P line until the last day of operation, when some were transferred to the J line to facilitate being placed in storage. I've read in PCC: The Car That Fought Back that they almost kept the P line when service ended; it still had 40,000 daily riders. The only reason they didn't was because a lot of nonreveue trackage would have had to be kept open for barn moves.
I like to say that had I been a native of L. A., I would probably still remember streetcars, as I was 6 when service ended and can remember that far back.
again that is my point that i will go into later!!!!
while riding down wahsington
blvd downtown los angeles
THE NORTH SOUTH BLUE LINE
ran down the street on its own
right of way
didnt interfere with traffic any better than a truck and or bus
so why did we have to loose
our rail system when i was seven years old and you were six???
you know riding the trolley was
almost as fun as the railfan window subway in philly nad n.y.!!!!!!!
now can we all agree that THE MTA OR RTD BUS IS A FAILURE IN LOS ANGELES ????
it is good to know those of you who even though you were in your childhood you remember when public transit was a reality ( pre 1960) recently i saw a panoramic black and white streach photograph
taken in altadena california 91001
lake avenue and mariposa street
WITH PACIFIC ELECTRIC RED CARS ( trolley type) making a left
hand turn into mariposa street
lake avenue is a sharp uphill grade with the san gabriel mountains in the background where i have hiked up to see the ruins of the mount lowe electric railway used to be !!!
maybe some of you out there go back to the early 1950"S
THE PICTURE WAS TAKEN ABOUT 1948 and can be seen at the true hardware store on mariposa stteet near the corner of lake avenue altadena ca 91001
my comments is as follows as i still watch MTA buses with govonors strain up lake avenue when once we had a reliable clean
rail system even out to here!!
i visited san francisco in 1979
why not try trolley buses instead??
they never should have ripped out the beautiful rail system we once had here!! it would have been a joy to ride now if it had been left alone !!! not to mention the traffic jams we have now!! this system could have been improved lik the trams of amsterdam page ( check that out )
Steve, not really, if they just kept the P Line and closed the others, the Georgia Street Barn was only 2 blocks off of Pico. I believe where the Conventio Center now sits. The P was also the shortesto of the 5 Lines in distance, the J the longest. The V was very busy also. I used to take a class in 61 at LACC, and the car turned around just 20 feet from the classroom. Sometimes it was the only thing that kept me awake in the class.
response to # 1 how did it feel when the los angeles rail systemss were ripped out ???
DID YOU MISS IT ????
how did you like the DIESEL BUSES that replaced it ????
do you agree that the gasoline and
diesel m.f.g. companies along with ford gm crysler amc AND THE OIL
COMPANIES conspired to RIP US ALL OFF of our electric rail transit systems nationwide!!!!!!!
response to # 1 how did it feel when the los angeles rail systems were ripped out ???
DID YOU MISS IT ????
how did you like the DIESEL BUSES that replaced it ????
do you agree that the gasoline and
diesel m.f.g. companies along with ford gm crysler amc AND THE OIL
COMPANIES conspired to RIP US ALL OFF of our electric rail transit systems nationwide!!!!!!!
Hey Slick Willie! How is the eletricity made for electric rail transit? By burning wood?
No, Coal
Still? Most power plants use oil. I'm sure that there aren't many systems left with antiquated proprietary power stations.
The major power supply in Los Angeles comes from the Dams on the Colorado River like Hoover Dam
Most power plants are fossil fuel and most of those are oil.
Most power plants are fossil fuel and most of those are oil.
In terms of number of plants, yes. In terms of kilowatts produced, no. In the lower 48 states, hydro is still our biggest producer, followed by nuclear. Fossil fuel is number three. Dividing up the fossil fuel output, again in terms of kilowatts produced, over half is from coal, with oil second and natural gas third. Adding Alaska and Hawaii won't change the overall picture, although it does push oil into a very close second with coal in the fossil fuel division. Add Canada into the mix, though, and oil drops back closer to natural gas than to coal, with hydro pulling even farther ahead of the others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well I didn't know coal was more popular, especially since handling and transporting oil seems easier. As for the hydro and nuclear producing more energy than fossil fuel, I think it's WONDERFUL. We need more nuclear pants.
mr defy reason we will store the radioactive waste in your apartment and or house - home
i am sure you will love the nuclear waste and have use for it !!
so since you didnt say in your last post what you will do with the waste since we need power for our rail sysrtems nad you are a\
nuclear power advocite store the waste with you !!!
I get blocked because of this idiot? The same guy who's afraid of the evil Census taker?
Your referring to our correspondent in L.A. as an idiot is a personal attack on the guy. I think you also called him Slick Willy, also insulting.
His posts irritate you, but I am not sure you will accomplish anything positive for yourself by attacking him.
It would be almost as futile as trying to take on the imbecilic level of heypaul's posts, who is another person who makes a pest with his posts.
But I didn't do any of that since the last time I changed my access number
OK all you guys, let's lighten up or Sea Beach Man will have to become the Enforcer. We are supposed to be a happy congregation. Well meaning barbs, like the ones that pass between Brighton Beach and me, are ok, but from what I've been reading from you guys, there are some mean spirited insults. Come on, let's get our acts together.
Right on SEABEACH MAN
no!!! my name is not and never has been SLICK WILLIE !!!!
i would use my real name but there are too many of you racist sub talkerss out there !!!
We have to put up with this, and MY ISP gets blocked????
-Hank
Wow, the Mr Willy and Defy Reason feud sounds almost like the Rail Photographer-Eugenius D Train feud!!!
Wow, the Mr Willy and Defy Reason feud sounds almost like the Rail Photographer-Eugenius D Train feud!!!
It is. Same people, different handles.
From
egeinus d train- bmt lines-jeffery rosen- SUB TALK subjects on topic
subjects please!!!! no !! i am not the same people!!!
dont agree with anything you said on this post !!!
and i dont send racist red necked e mail like some of you white boys do!!
the purpose of sub talk is rail systems worldwide not harrasing posts!! like john rocker?? mr bmt lines !!!?????
my name is spelled correctly mr willie not ""willy''....
egeinus d train- bmt lines-jeffery rosen- SUB TALK subjects on topic
subjects please!!!! no !! i am not the same people!!!
dont agree with anything you said on this post !!!
and i dont send racist red necked e mail like some of you white boys do!!
the purpose of sub talk is rail systems worldwide not harrasing posts!! like john rocker?? mr bmt lines !!!?????
my name is spelled correctly mr willie not ""willy''....
When did I ever post anything racist or harassing? You're the one posting racism and harassment, calling us Caucasian people "white boys", Mr. Salaam Allah! I've never made any distinctions according to race, religious affiliation or nationality, here on SubTalk or anywhere. I've had friends that were from different cultures - African-American, Hispanic, East Indian, American Indian, Oriental, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Athiest,....the list goes on and on. You're the only person on SubTalk that I've seen to make race an issue. There are other African-American people on SubTalk. None of them has complained about racism. BTW, isn't Salaam Allah supposed to mean "Peace of God" or"Peace from God"? As for all the different races of man, if God didn't want them, He wouldn't have created them. So, don't accuse me of racism or harassment. :-|
first of all my name is not ...
SLICKWILLIE ...common sense should tell you power stations are not powered by wood in new york city or anywhere in california...
rotary converters are not powered by "" burning wood"" either ??
if you didnt know this now you do !!!
That was the old 84 Western Ave Bus and they used Macks until 1964 and seemed to be the slowest busses in the city
The photo of the signal on the Polo Grounds Shuttle is definitely Union Switch and Signal type of the 1920's as used on the Lexington Avenue Linein places. Can anyone take photos of the relay cases? It would nice to get a signal number plate. Can someone get me some of the wire tags in the cases? It would be great.
THANKS A MILLION IN ADVANCE.
I suppose we can try on our next trip to the remains, but what we say was REALLY rusted away. There are no signal number plates that we saw, unless they're engraved on the signal box; where would we look? Definately no wire tags anywhere.
--Mark
I think Lou from Brooklyn mentioned that there were wiring left in a signal head. On the IRT they used rectangular wire tags tied to each conductor. Maybe you guys can find some for me? Also, I understand that eight signals were still in place in the tunnel. I would like photos of all if possible and there approximate locations.
There was ONE box on the west track that I saw what I would call (I am no way techncial) cups you would screw the light bulb in (if this was my house) for the signal. This was the one and only rusted out hulk that was not empty. Only signal plates found were the ones "recovered". The next trip I would take more light and more time inspecting each but with only 3 flashlights and no control over any of them....(Kept yelling for Mark to slow down, we spread out much).
Thanks Lou from Brooklyn in responding. I would like you to look for me and recover conductor tags and signals plates. You can reach off line at rosey999@juno.com.
12/22/99
Just a brief note that 20 people attended the 12/19 walking tour including yours truly.
Bill Newkirk
Both the Chief (a Civil Service newspaper) and Crains (a business newspaper) say the TWU got a very good deal. The Chief likes it, and Crains does not. No OPTO, no combined pick for RTO, producivity gains in the barns and depots that may or may not take place, and a no layoff pledge. Sounds like a good deal to me.
As for the City contracts, few agencies can point to the kind of improvments the subway workers can, given ridership and MDBF gains. The police perhaps can, but few others. Giving everyone the same raise regardless of performance is unfair.
Today I was working up at 239st yard and as I was signing out to go home I overheard the AM Yard Master telling his relief that a "power pack" would not be needed for the new trains. When they were done brefing each other, I asked if the R 142's were here. To my surprise one had arrived over night and is on Track 62 at the block in the barn. They said that one would be arriving nightly, and they will go to 180 st pulled by a work locomotive. Today I was unable to go and see it, I had to meet someone.
I am working 4am at 242st tommorow, I will most likly stop on my way home. I should have further info tommorow.
That's great!!! Keep briefing us, will you (I appreciate it)? Did anyone say what would ultimately become of the R110A, now that the new units have arrived?
-Stef
Are you sure? just yesterday, i was told that the Kawasakis still had about a months worth of work to go in Yonkers before arriving on property. (This from a TSS working to develop schoolcar for the 142s)
How do they make a school car- do they take a regular car and call it a school car or do they modify a regular car ( such as take out seats)
A school car is any train used for training. Kind of like Air Force One is any airplane the president is on.
I saw them being moved onto flatbed trucks with my own eyes. Yeah,I think they're being moved to 239th Street yard. I guess they'll be tested for about 6 months and if all goes well, we'll be riding them after June. If you don't believe me, go up to Yonkers and look.
My post speaks for it's self, I have no reason to belive the Yards Masters were putting me on.
Actaully, SBK 1 and 2 hauled in two IRT cars into the main shop at 207 Street Yard. I think the numbers were 6310 or something like that. They were on 9 track all day. They are nothing special over the R62 cars and I can see they didn't spend money on train crew comfort.
The units you saw at 207st might be the 142's from Canada(Bomidier), another subtalker said the unit numbers out of Yonkers are in the 7200 range.
They are. I posted yesterday that 6300s are in the mains shop on 9 track. Today on the Yonkers siding at Otis Elevator's old plant were some coaches for Virginia Railway Express along with the new cars 7212,13,15,14. Those will be entering NYC Transit soon and are ready for shipment from Yonkers as of 12/23.
Actually, they are not yet ready for shipment.
They are working round the clock on them, and they even brought in 40 additional employees just so they can finish them by deadline.
Fred
Oh boy, Oh boy! Must see right away. It's a R142A and not R142.
Whatever.
Does anyone know if the subject cars are still service and are they running right?
I saw the R110B in service yesterday on the C at Chambers St.
Yesterday morning, I was at Dekalb Ave waiting for an n/r to go back to downtown Manhattan after an appointment. However, a Q of R40 came in first and even though it was going out of the way I took the railfan over the bridge. It was a very cool ride. The tunnels from Dekalb to the bridge are very wide and contain many cross-overs and alcoves. The ride over the brige wasn't too fast but you can't beat the full length view from a R40. Actually, being able to see through the tracks onto the water is a little scary.
Actually, being able to see through the tracks onto the water is a little scary.
These days with the bridge in such disrepair, yes it is. I never used to think anything of it back in the 1960's and 170's, though.
From
After hearing of the horrible condition the recently replaced track supports on the Willy B were in, I'm kinda thanking God that I made it across safely every time.
Try riding an A across Jamaica Bay, sitting in a foward facing window seat on an R44 train. Looks like the train is running across the surface of the water, and any minute you might sink.
When I was a kid, I used to worry that standing up at the railfan window on a triplex or standard, with the window open, my glasses would fall out thru the bridge into the river. The trip across the river in those days seemed to take so long. But time to a kid is long.
Ah, yesh, a man after my own heart! The Slant R40 railfan window is the BEST (the seats are the worst). Another nice ride would be to take the "Q" out to Brighton Beach via the express tracks. If you are lucky, you'll get a hotfoot T/O who'll take the train up over 40 MPH.
BTW - Speaking of hotfoots - BRAVO to the T/O on the "A" train back on December 11th who shot through the Cranberry Tube like a bat out of hell, topping out (according to their account) at 53MPH. I gave them a great big thank you when we reached Jay Street. BTW the lead motor was, of course, an R38, and was #4008. SMOKIN'!
Wayne
I have always thought of myself privleged that I can ride the R40Slant into work each and every day (since the 68A switch). Even better is when they use the line for training and the cab door is open!!
Took the 5:56 R train out of Forest Hills this morning to work. The motorman of this train sure gave his riders a treat. He sped along the entire route. Even around sharp curves that almost always slow down this train (between 5th Ave. and 57/7th, north of Cortland, and the S-curve between Court and Lawrence St. A trip that normally takes me 1 hour (Continental to Pacific) took 53 minutes, and that includes a 2-3 minute delay at Dekalb to wait for a B train to cross in front of us.
Maybe it's not the car, but who's driving it.
Chris I haveto agree with you on that point. Even here in Philly where are subway trains as a rule go faster than the New York trains. But a couple of weekends ago took the Frankford EL from Bridge Street to center ci;ty. The operater we had really moved that M-4 train down the line. On the return trip was much slower you could just feel the difference between the two operaters.
Between Cortlandt St and City Hall? I wouldn't call that a treat. I'd call that a derailment waiting to happen! I guess the operating crews are giving up on a good contract. One of the reasons I hate being a rep. I was attempting to chew out a T/O for speeding when he yelled at me that I should mind my business and embarrassed me in front of passengers. I guess I did the right thing by waiting for the next train but there are people out there who really deserve to get written up but those who protect the screwups are the ones to suffer at management's hands.
When was the last time a train derailed for doing excessive speed around a curve? These trains can handle more than the TA, with its love afair with grade-time signals and wheel detectors, will allow.
That's not the point. There are speed limit signs in various places in the subway. These are called "fixed signals". Maybe this t/o wasn't following them. Most curves have a speed limit. Trains exceeding the speed limit produce excessive wear on the wheels & flanges of the cars and the tracks themselves. If this goes on and on and on, then you will have derailments around curves. I have encountered TSS with radar guns checking speed in various places. For example s/b on the G/R entering 36 St. Also, s/b on the E/F entering 23/Ely. Maybe this t/o gave you thrills around the curves, but WILL get caught speeding eventually by a radar gun. And then he'll say the TA is out to get him. I hate to sound sarcastic, but for a fast ride around curves, the Coney Island Cyclone should satisfy!
Aren't their timed signals to prevent that? I don't think this T/O was exceeding the speed limits at these locations, but was merely going much faster than most operators do.
You sounded like you were endorsing that kind of operation. As a train operator, I used my train's brakes to make up lost time, not the curves. As a union rep, I WANT train operators to run slow not because I endorse slow trains and job security but because the TA wants them slower and safe. We simply can not afford to go back to the 1980s when "cowboy motormen" were blamed by the press for creating derailments. When was your last speeding ticket issued?
No. I was endorsing that T/O's try to go as fast as their equipment, signals and regulations will allow them.
And on a nice, straight, level stretch of track, I say wrap it around and let 'er rip!! Put it this way: did the R-10s ever derail while thundering along CPW at 50 mph on the A? If you never got to experience it, you missed out.
I rode those cars through the Cranberry St. tube when they were on the C. Yes, they did really move.
The R-10s were built for express runs, no doubt. As great as they were on the CPW dash, I've heard testimony that they did a number on the Queens line while running on the F.
I still feel they should never have left the A line.
And on a nice, straight, level stretch of track, I say wrap it around and let 'er rip!! Put it this way: did the R-10s ever derail while thundering along CPW at 50 mph on the A? If you never got to experience it, you missed out. The fast run, I mean.
The two locations I cited have speed limit signs because of the curves but no timers. Just look out the railfan window and you will see this here and at many other locations. We have enough timers out there already without having them at EVERY speed restricted curve! If enough guys are caught speeding around a certain curve, then the TA may put timers there. I obey all speed limits. I obey all speed limit signs. I can operate according to speed limits without grade timers throughout the entire B division, but many of my counterparts need timers because they couldn't do it otherwise!
At sharp curves, common sense would dictate reduced speed. While on the J train during our October excursion, we heard the instructor say they were going to install a timer at one of the sharp curves on the Jamaica line because operators would start to accelerate before the last car of the train came out of the curve. That's one instance in which I would support the use of a timer.
One thing I notice among new T/Os is that they only seem to pay attention to the automatic signals but not to the fixed signals. Others are impatient and will not wait for a resume signal when running through crossovers and in grade time territory. Why does anyone feel the need to come barreling past a GT approach towards a red signal? It was hard for me to resist temptation to get an R10 up to 55 in the Cranberry because my trainers did it too. I quickly learned that by slowing down there is a decrease of risk in passing stop signals and and increase in overtime. If the sign says 35 and you do 50, you will inevitably catch your leader or will be held by supervision. You will run ahead of schedule and may get written up. I feel there is a big incentive for safety down here and that is because motormen and conductors get paid by the hour and not on an annual salary.
You want *MOVE*, you should have been on the NJT train I was on today. Left Hoboken, kinda ok, then stopped at some maintenance complex on the way to Newark Broad Street. Ok, 20 seconds of stoppage, I hear the brakes release. I swear the thing got up to 70 in about 10 seconds.
I wish the M-1s could do that neat trick.
Another thing, I've noticed NJT takes real nice care of their track. Nice poles, nice wires, nice concrete ties, nice everything.
I wish I coulda watched out the front though :(
Hey Phil. I told ya NJT was the premire outfit around here.
I don't know if I'd be praising them if it were not an Arrow III he was riding on.
At DeKalb your train was held for 2 or 3 minutes for a
connection? Sorry Chris it was held because it was EARLY.
We don't hold trains for connections in the rush unless
they are early. And then only for 2 or more minutes ahead.
That's why there's no point in operating fast. In addition
to the good points put forth by my brothers Bill and
Harold.
You got off at Pacific, but I can guarantee that Murphy
tower held that train some more at 36th St. The motorman
was reckless and his conductor wasn't doing his job by
allowing his train to run ahead of schedule.
I like a good run like the next railfan, but there's a
place for it. The Rockaway flats, Brighton 3/4 between
Kings Highway and Newkirk. 34/6 to W4 tk4. Either way into
59 and Lex lower level. The Dyre Av line. The 60th St or Joralemon St tubes. I could go on. These are appropiate places to make time. Local stops where no one really gets on or off.
The true skill of a train crew's is to get a train on time
at all of it's gap stations. Anyone can run ahead of
schedule and likewise behind. But keeping to within 15
seconds? Only the pro's.
The reason we were delayed at Dekalb was because a B train coming off the bridge had to cross in front of us. It stopped at Dekalb, instead of using the bypass tracks. This was at 6:50 AM.
The train was also not held at either Pacific, 36th or 59th St. I forgot I rode the train all the way to 59th because I had to use the N line.
I was just commenting on how fast the train was moving. No speed limits were broken. I don't advocate unsafe operations. I just thought it was an amusing situation.
How convienient that you left out these details in the first post? Humn..... It's called equivicating I believe.
Also I seriously doubt that a B rerouted to the station would have held up a Fourth Av. local ahead of it as they are on seperate tracks. If you were ahead of it then you would have stayed ahead.
Moreover how did you, a passenger come across this information? And further, as a savvy subway rider why on Earth would you take the Fourth Av local all the way from Forest Hills to 59/4 for the Sea Beach? You should know how to navigate better than that!
Tuesday morning, when the R arrived at Dekalb, there was a B train pulling out of Dekalb on the bridge track. It was a bit unusual, since the B usually never stops at Dekalb. It's also easy to verify. It was a B coming in from Queensbridge, probably the last early morning B train to leave 21st. St before the Q starts running. I did not make this up, nor do I have any motive to lie. As you probably know, whenever a train comes off the bridge and stops at Dekalb, it has to switch over to the same track that the N, M and R trains would use to get to PAcific St. Thus the delay. We had to wait for the B train to switch in front of us and clear the signal.
BTW, I often take routes to my job that are much longer than other, shorter alternative routes. I'm a railfan. I like looooong subway rides, especially on one train. Tuesday morning I had to check on a sick fellow employee who lives alone, thus the need to ride the N line (to 86th St.). Usually I transfer to the B at Pacific to get to my job.
With the attitude how can anyone tell?
What are the center tracks at Whitehall St.(Broadway Line) used for?
Culver Line and West End Line in Brooklyn?
What are the center tracks at Whitehall St.(Broadway Line) used for?
Culver Line and West End Line in Brooklyn?
There is only 1 center track. It was used for trains terminating there, like the former EE and former Whitehall N.
From
The center track is Whitehall is used for some late night short turn R trains from Queens and is sometimes used for reroutes due to construction (such as when the E runs on the R.)
Center Tracks were built for anticipation of possible express Services. The Center tracks on the West End are used at Bay Pkwy for short lines. The Culver F once had Rush Hr Exp Service No of Kings Hwy
In the 70s, they were also used to layup trains during off hours.
Since the grafitti elimination program went into effect, you don't see this at all anymore. Then again, there are fewer cars now (5,800) than there were in 1975 (6,874).
--Mark
With 200+ new R143 cars being put into service and no subway cars being retired, you might see this again, unless they expand some of the storage yards. Middle track layups are still common on the Lefferts Blvd. A branch, the Astoria line, and the J line at 111th St.
In the 70s, they were also used to layup trains during off hours.
Since the grafitti elimination program went into effect, you don't see this at all anymore. Then again, there are fewer cars now (5,800) than there were in 1975 (6,874).
--Mark
where in the world did 1,074 subway cars go? Did they cut service that much?
From
There were many more 60-foot cars still in service in 1975 than there are now. Delivery of the R-46s had just begun, and once they began arriving in sufficient numbers, the remaining R-1/9s were withdrawn. For every ten 60-footers retired, eight 75-footers took their place.
There were many more 60-foot cars still in service in 1975 than there are now. Delivery of the R-46s had just begun, and once they began arriving in sufficient numbers, the remaining R-1/9s were withdrawn. For every ten 60-footers retired, eight 75-footers took their place
That makes good logical sense, but can that account for cutting rolling stock inventory by over 1000 cars. We're talking about 15% of the fleet, and the fleet includes the 51' A-Division cars.
From
The IRT is down about 350 cars from what they had in the sixties. There really was no replacement for the R-12,14 and 15 car groups. Division B is down about 150-200 if you factor in the length ratio of the 75 footers versus the 60 footers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The IRT is down about 350 cars from what they had in the sixties. There really was no replacement for the R-12,14 and 15 car groups. Division B is down about 150-200 if you factor in the length ratio of the 75 footers versus the 60 footers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
To put it into simple terms, service cuts.
From
I think it also had to do with dwindling ridership at the time. Now with ridership increasing thanks in part to Metrocard, the subway system has been caught with its pants down, so to speak, and there isn't enough equipment on hand to keep pace with increased ridership.
I think it also had to do with dwindling ridership at the time. Now with ridership increasing thanks in part to Metrocard, the subway system has been caught with its pants down, so to speak, and there isn't enough equipment on hand to keep pace with increased ridership.
I add this to the list of bridges burned by the MTA.
From
Also, the pathetic state of the entire fleet by '75 meant that there were significantly more cars unable to operate because of some mechanical difficulty. That means you'd need a lot more cars than you'd expect, so as to maintain service when the cars started dropping like flies. Today's fleet is in much better shape, and they can get away with fewer cars.
I heard that some cars in the 70's had their MDBF's measured in the hundreds, not thousands of miles.
Yes, that's quite true.
Despite the vast improvement in MDBF, fleet availability has remained at about 85%
there are also less lines. no more r train via montauge tunnell no more broadway service etc. What this means is transit needs lesss cars not more this talk for more cars is just more excuses to steal more money
Then where were all those R trains going to/coming from today?
David
[there are also less lines. no more r train via montauge tunnell no more broadway service etc. What this means is transit needs lesss cars not more this talk for more cars is just more excuses to steal more money]
R trains still use the Montague St. tunnel just as they always have. M trains use it only during rush hours. Broadway express service is supposed to return once the south side tracks on The Money Pit reopen.
[The IRT is down about 350 cars from what they had in the sixties. There really was no replacement for the R-12,14 and 15 car groups. Division B is down about 150-200 if you factor in the length ratio of the 75 footers versus the 60 footers.]
One of the things I've learned here is that in spite of all the talk about lines with inadequate capacity, for the most part the real problem is inadequate service.
Are there really any overburdened lines? Or are they actually running 27 trains an hour during the actual peak, with service cut from the shoulder periods? I'm beginning to wonder.
The entire Lexington Ave line is overburdened, because it runs at 120%-130% capacity during the rush hours. The Queens Blvd. IND runs at about maximum capicity. As for other lines, I'm not sure.
[The entire Lexington Ave line is overburdened, because it runs at 120%-130% capacity during the rush hours. The Queens Blvd. IND runs at about maximum capicity. As for other lines, I'm not sure.]
There was an interesting thread recently, the consensus of which was that they could run more trains on the Lexington Avenue without new signals/longer stations.
for the most part the real problem is inadequate service.
That's been the war cry for decades.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm sure the Montague St. tunnel is at or near capacity during rush hours.
[I'm sure the Montague St. tunnel is at or near capacity during rush hours.]
Well, that makes one . . .
Lexington Ave runs over it's capacity. The Queens IND and the Manhattan Bridge run about as close to capacity as possible. Ditto for the Flushing line.
[Lexington Ave runs over it's capacity.]
There seems to be some controversy over this.
Controversy about it running over capicity, or controversy over what causes it and how it can be relieved?
[Controversy about it running over capicity, or controversy over what causes it and how it can be relieved?]
The latter, though I've read various figures for the capacity issue (120-140%).
The center track at Whitehall allows trains to terminate there without blocking trains behind them. The Culver and West End middle tracks were intended for rush hour express service. I don't ever recall any regular express service on the West End, and Culver express service was eliminated in 1987.
Speaking of Express service, I would like to see some of these express services but back in. Especially the 5 thru 241st. but the F Culver Expres) needs to be brought back along with the J express thru Eastern parkway. There is a lot more out there, but those are the main ones I would like to see.
Frank D
I know this is a little diversion from the main topics, but can anyone point me to LIRR/Amtrak/NJT frequencies??? I have Boston and NY(I just bought a scanner) and will be coming down for the holiday weekend.
Also, how good is the reception underground??
Thanks. If someone could e-mail them to me, it would save the need for this off-track thread(no pun intended...:) )
Jeremy
I dont know about the rest of the country, but in New York State, it is against the law to carry a scanner with you. You can only have one in your home for personal use. I got busted on that a while back trying to listen on the subway, but the cops let me off with a warning.
Anyway, here is a link for railraods in NYC and Metro area:
http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/scanning/current-scanner.html
And Here is a link for everything else in the city:
http://www.panix.com/clay/scanning/freq-lists.html#nyc
Fred
Sorry, the last link I gave you had a dead link for the TA's frequencies, here is a better
http://maxpages.com/frequencies/NYC_Transit_freqs?cart=4ced38601a7b
If That doesn't work, just go the home page, and NYCTA is on the left side:
http://maxpages.com/frequencies/NYC_freqs
Sorry
Fred
PS- Sorry for making you cut and paste, I am HORRIBLE with HTML, etc.
It's not illegal to carry a scanner in NY. What IS illegal is the use of a scanner by a person who is not a licensed radio operator in a motor vehicle (with exceptions for members of voluteer FDs, Red Cross, etc.). It is also illegal to use any information recieved over a scanner in the commision of a crime.
-Hank
So a cop lied to me, It's not the first time......
He told me the main reason I could not have one was because criminals use them to get away from the cops.
Thanks for the info anyway...
fred
A little follow-up: http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/ny_scanr.law
-Hank
It is also illegal to use any information recieved over a scanner in the commision of a crime.
If someone is going to break the law by committing a crime, they're not going to worry about scanners used in the commission of crimes being illegal.
From
Does that mean that since I am not driving a car, I CAN use a scanner such as while waiting for a train in New Jersey and there is a major disruption?
Yes- I will plan on headphones
I do it all the time....ESPECIALLY on AMTRAK......
I dont know about the rest of the country, but in New York State, it is against the law to carry a scanner with you. You can only have one in your home for personal use. I got busted on that a while back trying to listen on the subway, but the cops let me off with a warning.
I always remember railfans carrying them. When did that dumb law go into effect? BTW, there's a way around that. If you have an Amateur Radio License, there's no law against carrying a hand held 2-meter radio with you. The police don't have to know that it goes out of band!
From
so the short version is...keep it in a bag with headphones on??
thanks for the info everyone
so the short version is...keep it in a bag with headphones on??
thanks for the info everyone
They are made so small these days, you can fit one in your shirt pocket like a pack of cigarettes. Use an earphone and nobody will know you have it.
From
Uh oh... concealed weapon!!! :-)
Licensed Amateur Radio Operators enjoy a federal (FCC) preemption allowing us to carry receivers (Scanners) capable of receiving police or other public safety frequencies both mobile (in an automobile) or portable (handheld).
Licensed Amateur Radio Operators enjoy a federal (FCC) preemption allowing us to carry receivers (Scanners) capable of receiving police or other public safety frequencies both mobile (in an automobile) or portable (handheld).
Some time ago, I read in QST about a ham in New Jersey getting into serious trouble just for having a ham radio in his car that was capable of receiving police freqs. He wasn't using it for that purpose, but because the radio was capable of receiving police frequencies, he got burned. BTW, is N2MMM a vanity call?
KF4BOT
From
In New York State you can carry a scanner, you can not operate it in a moving car. You CAN NOT listen to Police Freq., this is where the cop that stopped you is confusing the law. DO NOT HAVE POLICE FREQ programed into your scanner even in a bank you are not listening to and you will be okay.
I as stopped, they took the scanner, I had to go all the way to the desk sargent to clear it up and I did not have police band programed ( I don't like bag pipes in the band that is).
All this is mute (pardon the pun) if you have a HAM RADIO LICENSE.
<I as stopped, they took the scanner, I had to go all the way to the desk sargent to clear it up and I did not have police band programed ( I don't like bag pipes in the band that is). >>
What can you do if the police frequency is already programmed in?
>
What can you do if the police frequency is already programmed in?
Program something else in its place. Program one of the amateur radio repeaters in its place.
From
Just thought I would put this out here. A few days ago my girlfriend and myself had a talk about the handicaped and using the transit systems in the U.S.A. I told her of the various things being done for the handicaped to ride our trains and buses. Neither one of us being handicaped she said its about time since in Europe they are way ahead of us as far as this goes. I disagreed. Does anyone know if the subways of London, Paris etc. are made accesable for the handicaped like we are trying to do here? Also how many people who are handicaped do you feel ride our systems?
Just thought I would put this out here. A few days ago my girlfriend and myself had a talk about the handicaped and using the transit systems in the U.S.A. I told her of the various things being done for the handicaped to ride our trains and buses. Neither one of us being handicaped she said its about time since in Europe they are way ahead of us as far as this goes. I disagreed. Does anyone know if the subways of London, Paris etc. are made accesable for the handicaped like we are trying to do here? Also how many people who are handicaped do you feel ride our systems?
That's a good question. I would imagine not too many. The reason being once you get out of the subway, you would have to walk the rest of the way to your destination. Its a lot easier going door-to-door with a car. So, even if the subway is ADA compliant, it would still be a hardship for the disabled. The Miami Metrorail, which opened in 1983 is 100% ADA compliant. Every station has an elevator (large capacity) that will take you from street level to platform level and vice-versa. You never see anyone in a wheelchair or on a walker riding the Metrorail. The station elevators, with the blue handicap symbol are usually packed with able-bodied riders that are too lazy to take the stairs or escalators.
From
[[Also how many people who are handicaped do you feel ride our systems?]
[That's a good question. I would imagine not too many. The reason being once you get out of the subway, you would have to walk the rest of the way to your destination. Its a lot easier going door-to-door with a car. So, even if the subway is ADA compliant, it would still be a hardship for the disabled.]
OTOH, many people in wheelchairs use NYC buses.
I've noticed the same thing in Chicago: almost no wheelchair-bound passengers on the L, but a good number on the buses. This is probably because most of the bus fleet has wheelchair lifts, but accessibility on the L is spotty at best. There are elevators at key stations of the Loop and the State and Dearborn subways, at every station of the Orange route to Midway (opened 1993), and at most stations of the (renovated 1996) Green Line, but outside that you can have two or three stations in a row with elevators and then literally no lifts until you reach downtown. For example, the Blue has elevators at O'Hare, Rosemont, Cumberland, and Harlem (opened 1983, pre-ADA but post-Rehabilitation Act) but none from there inbound all the way to Clark/Lake in the Loop. The Forest Park Branch of the Blue has no lifts from its terminus at Forest Park all the way to Jackson downtown, not even at Medical Center station. The Red has no elevators between Granville and Addison, and then none again to Washington downtown. Absolutely vital stations like Howard terminal (Red, Yellow, Purple), Belmont (Red, Purple, Brown), Fullerton (ditto), Chicago (Red; nearest station to Mag Mile shopping and the VA hospital), and Jefferson Park (Blue; terminus or interchange of several CTA and Pace bus routes) have no elevators.
I would like to point out to those in this thread who say that ADA compliance is an expensive measure considering how few it benefits that:
1) Disabled is not the same as wheelchair-bound. There are disabled people who CAN walk but for whom extended walking is painful or injurious, and just as they can park in handicapped spaces though they aren't in wheelchairs, they also benefit from the presence of an elevator even though they would use the stairs if they had no alternative. And just like some people will berate someone parking in a handicapped space because they aren't in a wheelchair and are thus not visibly disabled, there may be many less-severely-disabled people who benefit from the elevators but since they aren't in wheelchairs, others conclude "I don't see any disabled people using the lifts."
2) Parents with strollers seem (at least in my experience) to be a major user of elevators.
3) I'd rather have that prolific shopper with five huge "Disney Store" and "Old Navy" bags riding the elevator than trying to get on the escalator in front of me!
4) Bicycles. It's debatable whether they should be allowed on the system, at least at rush-hour, but if they are, the elevator is a much better place for them than the stairs, and a bike being carried down an escalator is positively a hazard!
[Re: Wheelchair users on buses]
Yes, and more than once, I've been on a bus with TWO wheelchair users, each getting on and off at different stops. Most bus drivers are now fairly proficient at using the lifts, and the only big delays seem to be if the driver doesn't position the bus correctly and has to shut down the lift, reposition the bus, then fire it up again.
Moreover, NYC bus riders are extremely patient when wheelchairs are boarding/deboarding -- and this from users who sometimes grumble when a driver decides to stop at a yellow rather than try to beat it!
I would like to point out to those in this thread who say that ADA compliance is an expensive measure considering how few it
benefits that:
1) Disabled is not the same as wheelchair-bound. There are disabled people who CAN walk but for whom extended walking
is painful or injurious, and just as they can park in handicapped spaces though they aren't in wheelchairs, they also benefit from
the presence of an elevator even though they would use the stairs if they had no alternative.
Hear, hear! As a fit-looking 40-year-old man who recently had stomach surgery, I spent a week or so walking slowly and painfully and taking buses, subways & cabs everywhere. Once I explained my situation, I could usually get someone to give up an accessible seat ... but I didn't look at all "disabled" unless someone saw me walk. The same applies to those with severe arthritis, etc. etc.
The point should be that as much as possible should be accessible, and "universal design" principles can be adopted either cheaply or cost-free. Chevy has started putting larger, color-coded knobs and dials in its cars -- good basic design that also helps older drivers. We will see a LOT more of that as the boomers continue to age without wanting ever to be reminded that they're aging ....
On a daily basis my company carries about 5,000 Senior/Disabled (that includes round trips) and most are in the Disabled group. These include customers that we needed to operate the Wheelchair lift for, but that number is quite small.
The only point I'm making is that the group includes a lot of folks that may not be recognized as handicaped by the other customers.
Mr t__:^)
The only point I'm making is that the group includes a lot of folks that may not be recognized as handicaped by the other customers.
That was precisely the point I was trying to make as well.
I wouldn't object to the CTA adding elevators here in Chicago, except that every time they do so, they end up replacing the entire station. It costs a huge amount of money. Plus, they've destroyed many historic stations in the process, and currently, they want to replace the only station dating back to the opening of the original "L" line in Chicago (1892), just to add an elevator. I'm sure they could add one without replacing the station.
I barely see anyone ever using the elevators. They are useless in the subways, because homeless people are always sleeping in them.
Oh, I forgot to add, Medical Center on the Congress (don't call it "Forest Park"--idiotic name) is handicapped accessible; they recently reopened the Damen Ave. entrance, and found that the ramp is within ADA requirements, so that entrance is accessible.
Polk St. on the Douglas is also accessible for people going to the Medical Center district.
-Jacob
Re. Medical Center being accessible: the ramps there must be shallower (less steep) than the usual Forest Park Branch ramps, which are pretty steep and would be damned useless for a wheelchair-bound person unless they had a gloved hand on the wheel constantly to keep the wheelchair from rolling out of control.
I rechecked the map and you are correct, Polk station is "around the corner" on the Cermak Branch from Medical Center and it has elevators, as does 18th Street on the same Branch. However, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about: elevators at some important stations (and indeed some less-important ones) but not other important stops. For example, Loyola has a lift and needs it, but the next station, much-less-used Granville, also has an elevator, while heavily-used Belmont is about as disabled-INaccessible as you can get.
John, I fit category one above. And I think that, while certain accomodations can be easily (and cheaply) designed into new construction, the cost of retrofitting old stations is greater than can be justified.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have seen people in wheelchairs use the DC Metro, but you're right about it being mostly for people either too lasy to walk or for those times when some of the longer escalators are under repair. At Metro Center, some people will even take a long walk down to the far end of the station to take the elevator up from the blue/orange line, even though it's only a short escalator ride to the red line level.
The advantage DC and the newer systems have is if you are disabled you know all the stations can be accesses by elevators. In New York, not only can it change station to station, but in some places, only half a station may be accessible to the handicapped. When the system gets a more elevators and more consistancy, then you may see an increase in riders.
New York's subways - even those stations meeting ADA requirements - are not, and probably never will be, handicapped-friendly. And I for one don't view that as a problem. I personally have some mobility problems, thanks to some injuries as a youngster that are now significantly complicated by arthritis, so I'm quite familiar with accessibility and related safety issues. I don't see how the New York system can be reasonably adapted to make the system acceptably accessible for a person with more mobility problems than I have and still carry the masses like it does today. Eventually, I'll probably have to give up riding the system because I won't be able to manage the stairs any more, or perhaps the gap at the platform edge, but I can't see the justification for spending the amount of money required for the benefit of a relatively small number of people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
New York's subways - even those stations meeting ADA requirements - are not, and probably never will be, handicapped-friendly. And I for one don't view that as a problem. I personally have some mobility problems, thanks to some injuries as a youngster that are now significantly complicated by arthritis, so I'm quite familiar with accessibility and related safety issues. I don't see how the New York system can be reasonably adapted to make the system acceptably accessible for a person with more mobility problems than I have and still carry the masses like it does today. Eventually, I'll probably have to give up riding the system because I won't be able to manage the stairs any more, or perhaps the gap at the platform edge, but I can't see the justification for spending the amount of money required for the benefit of a relatively small number of people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most people with severe disabilities are going to go door-to-door with a car. For most people with mild disabilities, accessibility is not that much of an issue.
From
That assumes availability of a car-Noy always the case. While I certainly would not argue for immediately modifying every station to full ADA, I note that when in New York visiting my step-daughter, she mostly uses buses because so few subway stations are accessible. When more of them are functional the balance will shift. BTW even is the 'car solution' were preferable for an individual, remember we might wish to go somewhere as a group--mass transit.
I agree that so much money should not be spent on ADA. As I've said before, here in Chicago, when the CTA wants to add an elevator, they completely replace a station; if they only did a modest rehab, and added the elevator, I wouldn't mind so much.
Many beuitiful stations in the CTA system have been destroyed because of this. New "L" stations are strictly utiliterian and ugly. I say we should preserve the old stations, and maybe try to find a way to fit an elevator in without destroying them. Ashland on the Lake St. line was done this way.
-Jacob
[The advantage DC and the newer systems have is if you are disabled you know all the stations can be accesses by elevators. In New York, not only can it change station to station, but in some places, only half a station may be accessible to the handicapped. When the system gets a more elevators and more consistancy, then you may see an increase in riders.]
Elevator reliability surely is another major issue in New York. While there's a hot-line number to call for elevator status reports, things can change and a supposedly accessible station may be inaccessible by the time a disabled person arrives. And given the fact that it takes months to repair an escalator, an out-of-service elevator will remain that way for a long time.
For those with severe handicaps NYC has a "Access-A-Ride" program. Some get a small bus/van that comes to the house, others have a "assistant" that goes with them. On the bus we get .75 for the two of them.
NYC-DOT is moving to an all Handicap accesable fleet, at least that's what their commited to, mean while we have "regulars" who ride with us every day & we make sure a handicap accessible bus plys that route. They can even call us if they're working OT, and provided they give us enough time, we're happy to put a bus with a wheel chair lift on that later run.
Things have improved since the first RTS came with wheelchair lifts, i.e. they initially didn't work very well. There was a lot of finger pointing as to who's fault it was, but now they work better.
On the subways you need to ask first before you take a trip, because many of the busyier stations have elevators. However the bus has the advantage of letting you off at the street level & usually closer to your final destination.
Disclaimer: These are not official comments by NYC TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
Even if NYCTA could get past the issues of elevator reliability, I wonder whether a wheelchair passenger would even feel safe in the subway.
Given the sometimes narrow platforms, the dense crowds and the fact that people in wheelchairs are not at eye-level, I have visions of a tragic accident. Perhaps I'm over-cautious, but does anyone else perceive this to be a significant risk?
Chuck
(note to Mr. Rocker -- by dense crowds I am refering to the volume of people, not average IQ)
Given the sometimes narrow platforms, the dense crowds and the fact that people in wheelchairs are not at eye-level, I have visions of a tragic accident. Perhaps I'm over-cautious, but does anyone else perceive this to be a significant risk?
Yes. Just as the elderly are prime candidates for a mugging, I imagine that the disabled would be too.
From
(note to Mr. Rocker -- by dense crowds I am refering to the volume of people, not average IQ)
As other people say in this forum--RIM SHOT!!
I tend to feel that elevators are a useful convenience at places where folks are liable to have a lot of bags--near department stores, hotels, train stations, airports, et. al.--even if the stations can't be fully ADA-compliant.
As for the European systems: virtually none of the London Underground is accessible, and so far as I've noticed in Paris, only the brand-new (and truly gorgeous, vaut le voyage) Line 14 of the Metro is. Both of those systems being largely contemporary with New York's (pre-1940), they face the same problems as we do in a more enlightened age. I'm sure more recent subways like Munich, Amsterdam, or Milan are less problematic for wheelchair users.
Here's a link to a map of accessible Underground stations:
http://welcome.to/dev/null
And John Rowland's terrific page includes items about planning for access:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html
> Neither one of us being handicaped she said its about time since in
> Europe they are way ahead of us as far as this goes. I disagreed.
The metros of Paris and London are almost entirely INaccessible to wheelchair and hard-of-mobility passengers. The bus transit in London is slowly catching up. I don't have a percentage but it's not 100% of the fleet like the NYC Bus buses (actually, I'm assuming all of the RTS-style buses in the NYC Bus fleet have lifts. I don't know for sure if that's true or not). Other European cities which depend on tram systems, like Amsterdam, are also almost entirely INaccessible.
Newer systems in the U.S. like Washington, Atlanta, BART, etc. have a huge advantage in this area. I doubt that older systems like Boston, NY, Chicago will ever be 100% accessible.
-Dave
David, I think you can also include the Jubille Line extension and the Docklands in London also the Newcastle-upon-Tyne metro.
Simon
Swindon UK
Chicago will be fully accessible at the rate the CTA is destroying stations and replacing them with ugly utiliterian boxes. It's an outrage!
-Jacob
As usual, Dave has an intelligent post.
the big problem in NYC's system is the design. It was built by competing entities who did not want transfers to competitor's lines. This complicated the issues. let's take Fulton/Broadway-Nassau Complex (and I am simplifying by only one street elevator) you'd need:
1 elevator to 2/3 Plat
1 elevator from street to 2/3 Mezz
1 elevator from 2/3 mezz to IND
1 elevator from IND to J/M/Z- this would need to be a 3 story job since the J/M/Z plats are on two levels
1 elevator from IND to 4/5 Uptown
1 elevator from IND to downtown 4/5
This is 6 elevators needed. Assuming an elevator costs 50,000 ( I dont know what they cost)this is 300,000 plus cost of electrical, alarms, video cameras, etc.
Now let's look at the platforms: 2/3 can support 1 elevator but can the IND plat- narrow as it is support 4 elevators and 4 elevator machinery rooms.
Now let's look at Canal (N/R/6/J/M/Z)--even worse due to multiple level changes.
It is precisely this reason why there will never be 100% ADA compliance ( and it is not required-- only "Key Stations")
**disclaimer: this post is personal opinion and does not express official opinions of the MTA or NYCT****
Hi I was wondering if any of the subway guru's out there might be able to help me out. i am in the process of painting HO scale BRT BU cars and want to paint one in th dark green scheme. What color would come closest to the shade of green used? The photo's i have seen give the inducation of almost a brunswick type of green almost black, or is that just how they weathered?
Waiting in earnest
Steve L
Hi I was wondering if any of the subway guru's out there might be able to help me out. i am in the process of painting HO scale BRT BU cars and want to paint one in th dark green scheme. What color would come closest to the shade of green used? The photo's i have seen give the inducation of almost a brunswick type of green almost black, or is that just how they weathered?
Waiting in earnest
Steve L
The Museum BU that the TA has is dark maroon. Don't ruin it by painting it green. Paint it dark maroon, or if you want to give it that "weathered" look, paint it Floquil Grimy Black. That's the color I painted my scratchbuilt HO-scale BU. BTW, where did you get yours?
From
I have a two car set in Brass from WP Car company. They were poroduced in the early eighties I believe, I purchased my set used. I am painting one car in the as delivered red scheme and want to do the other green if possible
Aside from painting models, the really BIG problem is that nobody has a WayBak machine to get accurate, first hand visuals /samples of what the equipment was painted/ lettered when delivered.
Case in point: at BSM we are restoring a 1904 Single Truck Brill to it's 1923 rebuild state. The United Railways rebuilt the car as a Safety car, adding longer platforms, air doors, folding steps, etc.
Body color (in 1923) was a Cadmium Yellow (Almost Traction Orange) body with cream windows and a Buff roof. That's documented. The real "we don't know" question is the car number color. We have decals with both sold black and black outlined dark red numbers, and no color photographs exist of the scheme. All the B&W's of the ST rebuilds (and Baltimore's home-built articulateds) were painted in the Cadmium scheme when built. In 1928 the company changed the "One-Man" scheme to a canary Yellow / Cream scheme. Since no WayBak machine exists, we're going to one black and one red against the body color and see which one looks better. It ain't perfect, but it's the best we have. Extensive research did not answer the question.
I hit the Post button too fast.
The sentence that starts "All the B&W's of the ST rebuilds (and Baltimore's home-built articulateds) were painted in the Cadmium scheme when built." should be followed by "However, the photos that exist don't help to answer the decal color."
My apology.
Steve, I think 659 up at Branford still has original paint.
Jeff H. I believe that Branford repainted one side of 1349 in green several years ago. You have been there to know how the two compare. I'm sure if 659 is in original green, it is much duller than the green on 1349 because the paint must be almost 50 years old. Do you know if the repaint of 1349 was supposedly the same color as 659 was originally?
Jeff,
Only problem is the last time I saw 659 was 1984 and I cannot remeber if the color was darker or lighter than 3662. I remeber 1362 however having rode it in the mid 70's with my father, I remeber it is being almost black
Steve, I promised you this information months ago and am finally able to produce it.
The following BU's in the 1200 series were painted green in the 1940's... 1227,1240,1246,1254,1261,1282 and 1286.
These were apparently 1200's that were not rebuilt into "C's" or "Q's" and finished their careers as open platform gate cars.
I had to stop keeping records in the fall of 1949 because I took an after school job, and no longer got to see the trains.
There may have been other 1200's never rebuilt that finished their careers in brown, but I was taken with the green paint job, and never kept records on the brown cars.
I don't agree with the poster who said that you would ruin your models by painting them green. The green color was what many of the gate cars were painted when they ended their careers. You have a choice of the red, brown or green color, all were legitimate. Brown was apparently the color that they wore during most of their years in service. It is unfortunate that during my time, I remember the brown as a peeling paint job. As I said before, they are your models, and you should choose the color that suits you!
Thanks Karl for all the help, I never really liked the brown (I remeber it on 1349 at BERA) so green it will be. I will probabaly use Pullman green. I f interested i will post some pictures when the cars are done
Steve L
I would be very interested and will be anxious to see pictures when you are done. Pullman green probably isn't a bad choice either. Weather was not kind to the original green, and it really darkened and dulled over a period of time. Jeff H is the expert and might possibly be able to help with the original shade. I saw a color photo of 1349's green side this fall that looked just like I remembered them from 50 year's ago.
I recall riding on 635 right after it came out of the paint shop and it was beautiful. It was a bright medium green (no relation to the olive drab of the R-16's), with a light gray roof and end platform floors, shiny black gate hardware, bright white numbers, and freshly repainted destination signs. It looked and smelled good, and just made me feel good riding on it. Of course I felt good riding a gate car, even if the paint was brown and peeling. I loved those cars!
Who was to blame and what could have prevented it? So I want to know what is the answer to both question!
The Train operator
The Conductor
The Tower Operator
The Dispatcher
All of these people were responsible for Union Sq in some way and any one of them could have prevented it.
Only one person is responsible and it is Robert Ray, the Train Operator. This man is 100% responsible for the crash for not observing the approach home signal with an illuminated "D".
The "Daily News" headline on that day screamed "He Was Drunk".
--Mark
Ray had was most at fault but he did have help. The Conductor Never called in those stations he overran in the Bronx and The Dispather at Woodlawn for leting him sign in if he wasn't fit for Duty. The Systerm Failed the night of the Accident.
And the Tower Operator for 'fleeting in' the diversion route instead of setting it every time a train came to the interlocking.
Yes that had a Big part to play in it
It is entirely possible that the crash could have been prevented if the conductor had been less uncertain as to the scope of his authority. He knew quite soon after the beginning of the run in the Bronx that something was seriously amiss. In fact, the train operator (Robert Ray) probably was intoxicated and definitely was severely sleep-deprived. Had the conductor pulled the emergency cord and/or contacted the control center, there would have been no crash. Unfortunately, the conductor did not know whether he was authorized to take such drastic steps, and elected to do nothing.* Rule changes made in response to the crash now make it clear that conductors can intervene in potentially dangerous situations without fear of disciplinary action.
* = It should be pointed out that the conductor's testimony on this issue, concerning his uncertainty as to the extent of his authority, was rather obviously self-serving and therefore should be looked at with some skepticism.
That being said and also quite true, there's a bit more. The Home signal displaying an illuminated D and a diverging route aspect had no speed restricting time signal associated with it as a distant signal. Knowing the speed potential of trains approaching that crossover the Authority was remiss in not having a time signal to protect it.
There are timers protecting many other turnouts and crossovers. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
Yes you are right of non-enforcement in the signal system at the approach home signal however, the motorman did break the rules.
It is not 100% fault upon Mr Ray. Rule 101N states "When for any reason it is necessary to divert a train from its regular route, the switch must not be set for the diverging move nor the signal for that route cleared until the train has stopped, unless the tower operator can see the train and has observed that its speed has been reduced to that allowable for the crossover movement". Rule 11A hangs the supervisor at Woodlawn for letting an unfit employee sign on. The conductor was not in charge of his train. Murphy's Law went into effect with the General Order and everyone paid for it.
I believe 14 Street Southbound was the first to get the Wheel Detecter on the A Div. Now if you get switched from Express to Local you get slowed up as far as 23 Street.
You can get slowed down at 23rd St. even if you're not being switched over and the track is clear. I was on a southbound 4 train in October, enjoying the nice straightaway run, sailing past 23rd St. at 40 mph, then it happened. Whooooaaaaa!!! The train slowed down to about 20 mph and maintained that speed the rest of the way to Union Square. Clear track and everything.
Yes that is true but even slower when diverted. Today I picked my Holiday Job on the No.5 Line and Noticed More timers. Theres a new timer South of 125 Street/Lex on the Northbound Express.
Union Square was one of those popular "what if" locations.
Tearing down the middle through 23 St, wondering "what if
the iron is against us at 14 Street?" Lots of other locations
in the system like that. Many of them have WD signals now.
No safety system can prevent 100% of accidents. In that infamous
case, one can point to 4 people who exercised questionable judgement
besides the train operator: the towerman, the terminal dispatcher,
the conductor, and a Transit Policeman. Does anyone know what
ever happened to any of them?
I know the conductor was fired but subseqently rehired.
The dispatcher (I may be wrong) was demoted.
I was taught once that accidents seldom happen due to just
one cause. Rather it takes a sequence of failures. As has
already been listed here it could have been prevented at
many junctures, and wasn't.
*The dispatcher allowed an intoxicated man on the payroll.
*The conductor allowed his motorman to continue in service
after operating improperly and failing to stop at the
proper stop markers. He never bothered to investigate the
reason. His later excuses were that, excuses.
*The tower operator failed to follow operating rules
designed for the crossover move being executed. The train
must be stopped or known to be at a safe speed before the
signal can be cleared to allow a train to diverge route.
*The system itself. Had there been a time signal in
approach to the home signal protecting the crossover, this
would never had happened.
Had any single one of these things been different, those
people would not have died.
I am in no way absolving Robert Ray of his considerable
guilt. Merely pointing out that accidents have multiple
causes, and that the system is set up to prevent single
acts or occurences from becoming disasters. This was a
complete failure of the entire system. Hence the terrible
consequences.
It takes more than one failure to have a train wreck. It's
almost always a chain of events and not one "that's it".
The entire Transit Authority failed that summer night.
[In that infamous case, one can point to 4 people who exercised questionable judgement besides the train operator: the towerman, the terminal dispatcher, the conductor, and a Transit Policeman.]
What was the transit policeman's involvement? I don't remember any such mention in the NTSB report.
It was a minor point. At the time of the accident, the press
reported that a transit policeman rode the train from the Bronx
into Manhattan and observed its erratic operation, but he simply
got off and continued his tour.
I'm suprised that no one at Woodlawn noticed it.
As with any accident, there are many parties who have minor contributory roles. In this case the train operator, Mr. Ray, appears to be largely to blame. At best he was tired, at worst he was drunk (from what I recall, the rumors of crack vials in the cab were unfounded and/or exagerated).
While it appears that the conductor may have had the "last clear chance" to prevent the accident from happening, it doesn't diminish Mr. Ray's responsibility for the crash. (At least not in my mind, perhaps in a court of law there may be some consideration to the negligence of others).
Chuck
It is obviously a gamble that Mr. Ray took, and he lost. However, given this gamble, other persons, that were in a position to take control of this ultimately perilous situation, did not act as they were supposed to do.
I don't agree. Ray is a criminal and totally caused the accident. He did not slow down for the yellow over green over "D" approach home signal. He had 100% control of the situation and nobody else.
I don't agree. Ray is a criminal and totally caused the accident. He did not slow down for the yellow over green over "D" approach home signal. He had 100% control of the situation and nobody else.
Too top it off Ray walked off the scene of the accident and went to a store to purchase beer and drink in a park. HIT AND RUN. What a moron.
That's a tough one. There's a lot of blame to go around, but most of it falls squarely one the one person who caused it - the train operator. I sort of also fault Kawasaki for building obviously tin trains, the likes of which haven't been seen on the IRT since the Flivver Lo-V's; no Redbird would have fallen apart like that - dented, smashed, even some side body penetration - probable; but not structural compromise like what happened to #1437 and #1440. Had that crash involved the #4 Line's R33 equipment, there more than likely would have been no loss of life. Serious injuries, perhaps, but no fatalities.
CAVEAT:
These are my own personal observations.
Wayne
I beg to differ. I read somewhere that the R62 cars up have welded A frame construction from the floor to ceiling. The end bonnets are bolted to this frame in a fashion making the front ends less vulnerable to damage in a collision. If you are not sure, just go to the videotape of the collision between the revenue collector and the southbound #1 road at 103 Street and Broadway. The R62 needed some repairs but the R22 bulkhead was pushed back to a point over the number two traction motor. I think the pic of the R22 is on this site.
Yes, I do agree with you. R62 and R62A are quite substantial at their ends. #2256 did not incur much damage in collision with the R22. Neither did #1400 in the Wakefield Lead accident. In fact, in all that tangle of steel in the Union Square crash, the #2 end of #1437 DID hold up remarkably well, as did the #1 end of #1440. What IS suspect, however, is their inability to withstand side impact. The worst-damaged units (#1437, #1440) at Union Square both incurred side impacts against girders and other underground structures. I'm not so sure that an R33 would have suffered such catastrophic damage, even at that speed. But again, I am simply speculating.
Thank you for passing along the structural/technical info regarding the R62/R62A.
Wayne
I guess we will wait for confirmation from Steve or the Professional on this matter. I doubt there are any cars on this earth that are capable or sustaining sideswipe damage. I know from looking at some of the wrecked R62s from Union Square, there seems to be more steel behind the fiberglass where on R38 and older, you can clearly see how they always get destroyed. There are cross braces under and over the windshield glass held in with rivets.The pic on Daves site of the R22 at Morris Park or the 3990 at Coney Island hammers in their vulnerability. None of the R62 cars I have seen in the Union Square wreck were really destroyed by head end damage; they buckled in the middle or the sides were sheared apart.
That's almost always how passenger fatalities occur in
rail accidents. In an accident where the bodies are
sheared apart. Head on's produce a signifigant amout of
injuries but it's rare that anyone except the motorman is
really hurt or even killed.
If we look at the accidents at Roosevelt Av. and at
Columbus Circle both involved cars of the older age. An
R-16 and an R-10 if memory serves. 3333 was the 10 right?
Both had the car bodies penetrated by steel columns.
Let's look at R-68 2755. Brand new and just going into
it's service debut. Struck by a flat car at the head of a
work train which ran a stop signal and went past a
trailing point turnout into the side of 2755. Same type of
damage. The R-44 at 135 which picked the switch. Same
deal.
It's just sheet steel. It's what, a 16th of an inch? Sure
it's reinforced with ribs and the doorways have boxed
steel assemblies. But it's not like there are steel I
beams there. There are collision posts at the ends of a
car but it's essentially a curtain on the sides of rolled
out sheet steel. To make it even weaker is the window and
door cutouts in the sides. Only the framework of the floor
provides any real stiffness. The boxed steel door posts
help, but they're not substantial enough to resist the
kinetic energy of a collision. Jeff can do the equations
better than me. Look how the R-44 and R-32 had the
frame stiffening plates welded on to the body after
overhaul. They needed to be beefed up to hold the new AC
units on the R-32. On the R-44 I remember pre overhaul
cars where it was possible to feel the body swaying. Floor
one way and ceiling another.
When the great tonnages involved are figured in, there is
no safety in a collision. The best we can do is create a
safe signal and braking system to prevent these accidents
in the first place. But that's another subject.
#1435 and #1436 had bonnet damage, especially #1435. They haven't returned to service yet - perhaps the floors or frames buckled. These were the fourth and fifth cars in the consist. #1439 (second car) bounced off the wall and hit the top of its roof and hasn't returned either - I believe that one is also deemed wrecked.
You are correct about the two cars which sustained the worst damage - #1437 (first car) was indeed cut in two laterally ahead of the third door back; and #1440 (third car) hit the girders and took a dent that had the seats on one side touching those on the other.
I have also noticed that Slant R40s are VERY vulnerable to end damage - i.e. #4427, #4428, #4259, #4420, #4248, #4200 etc. ALL reduced to scrap except #4248 which got a donated end (from #4421 I believe).
Duly noted regarding the other notable accident victims you mentioned.
Again thanks for the technical information.
wayne
Too bad those cars aren't/weren't built like BMT standards...
Did the NTSB ever issue a final finding as to the cause of the accident and recomendations so it won't happen??
Can Any motormen / Conductors tell me if these are still used:????NYCTA Radio Codes
NYCTA Radio Code Signal System
Code Description
12 - 1 EMERGENCY - CLEAR THE AIR
12 - 2 FIRE OR SMOKE (ON TRAIN - ROADBED)
12 - 3 FLOOD OR SERIOUS WATER CONDITION
12 - 5 STALLED TRAIN (POWER - TRAIN)
12 - 6 DERAILMENT
12 - 7 REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE (POLICE - AMBULANCE)
12 - 8 ARMED PASSENGER (TRAIN - ROADBED)
12 - 9 PASSENGER UNDER TRAIN
12 - 10 UNAUTHORIZED PERSONEL ON TRACK - CATWALK
12 - 11 SERIOUS VANDALISM
12 - 12 DISORDERLY PASSENGERS
SAMPLE PROCEDURE: "COMMAND CENTER 12-1"
(PAUSE) "COMMAND CENTER THIS IS PELHAM 4:26 AT
125TH STREET REPORTING A 12 - 2 ON TRAIN ETC."
Thanks,
Fred
Yes, they still exist. They are taught to new train service personel, and they are also required by the rules and regulations as per rule 20D. pertaining to radio discipline. Keep a yacking!
The other day when I was out in the rain measuring
the distances between Cortelyou and Beverley, and
Neck Road to Ave U, I found a slip of paper in the
street which was smudged and almost illegible. But
as best as I could make out, it stated that the
entire new fleet of R 142's would be used to provide
service on the Franklin Shuttle. I'm not sure of
the exact number of cars in the new order, it must
be at least a couple of hundred, but all these cars
would be needed to provide 6 reliable cars to
maintain the shuttle service. The remaining cars
would be used as spare parts and spares as the MDBF
for the 142's has been projected to be about 3 trips
between Prospect Park and Franklin Shuttle. So
serious is the problem of getting cars to and from
the shops, that there are plans in the making at
this moment to convert most of Prospect Park into a
subway yard to store and repair the R 142's. This
will save the cars having to travel 5 miles each way
to Coney Island yard for repairs, in which the
mileage of the trip itself would exceed the mean
MDBF.
I'm pretty sure that's what the piece of paper
implicated, although another railfan claimed it was
just somebody's shopping list.
This will be my last communique of the evening, as I can feel the thorazine beginning to kick in.
BUT WILL THE R142'S HAVE A RAILFAN WINDOW?????
All subway cars ordered from 1999-when the world ends, will be Non-Railfan window. It sux too!
Peace Out
-Clayton
I downloaded the PKZIP file of the big GIFs and I got all the files. There is one problem: The maps for all of Brooklyn (except Brooklyn Heights) and the Downtown maps (bklyn-1.gif; bklyn-2.gif; bklyn-3.gif; downtown.gif) do not have anything in them. The maps that do work I can view them in Internet Explorer offline. I've tried downloading just those particular maps individually, but there still isn't any image with those files. Can anybody help me in downloading those maps? I WANT THOSE MAPS!!!! I'll go INSANE if I don't get them! AHHHH!
Any help is apprecitated.
Thanks.
Even better, go to Peter Dougherty's Track Book page, where you can learn how to order the printed book of the maps.
Aside from being able to curl up beside your fireplace with a cold Bud, a warm Golden Retriever (or anything else warm that suits you) and the best trackwork book I've seen, you get many extras which aren't on available online.
Truly worth it.
Curling up sounds good, but I take Peter Dougherty's Track Book to the head end of an R32 A and try to figure out HomeBall Alley...
Going over the Manhattan Bridge and 125th on the IRT is intresting too, still can't figure out 125th St.....
These images are very large and it is possible that Internet Explorer cannot display them properly. Try using a true image manipulation tool to view them (Paint Shop Pro, LView Pro, Photoshop, etc).
On both my Mac and my (Windows NT) laptop, Netscape does just fine (much faster on the Mac, of course), but Internet Explorer won't open any of the maps over about 200K. Score another triumph for Microsoft:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about a warm English Beer and 2 Cold Goldens (Goldie Girl and Yogi BoY)
Hey, remember this ******* who came to our town and got his butt kicked? Now he's bashing our subway too!
John Rocker -- the loud-mouthed Atlanta Braves short-reliever bashed New Yorkers and "foreigners" in this week's Sports Illustrated.
"Imagine having to take the 7 train ... looking like you're (in) Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids," Rocker said. "It's depressing."
Continuing his tirade, he said: "Nowhere else in the country do people spit at you, throw bottles at you, throw quarters at you" and, he said, make vulgar comments about your mother.
"The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners," he said.
The New York Yankees roundly kicked Rocker and the Braves' butt in the World Series this year to become three-time world champions in a four-year period.
--wcbs 88
Well, there's freedom of speech and all that, but my question is:
Why in the world did Sports Illustrated think these remarks were worthy of the ink to print them? And trees died for the paper to print them on.
IOW, whatever happened to editorial judgment?
Paul, perhaps Sports Illustrated wants to advance this Mets/Rocker feud for future sales issues (to get more milage out of this one).
The guy is obviously 'Trailer Park Trash', so the best that can be done is to ignore the miscretint(sp?).
Doug aka BMTman
In this case your spelling of the word miscreant was incorrect but impeccable at the same time (misCRETINt) Rocker is a C*R*E*T*I*N
Thanks John. I am still trying to learn that foreign language -- English
Being from Brooklyn I speak Brooklynese, (ya Know watt I'm tawk'n 'bout? :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Being from Brooklyn I speak Brooklynese, (ya Know watt I'm tawk'n 'bout? :-)
Yeah, Doug, but it's still da King's English!
(County, dat is!)
Speaking of Brooklyn English, when I was growing up in Flatbush the only people I met who really sounded like the movies (dese, dem, dose) were from South Brooklyn (Red Hook).
Maybe because of this "William Bendix" concept of Brooklynese, some people in Britain had a hard time picking up that my wife and I were from the U.S., no less Noo Yawk.
OTOH, Americans from our Great Fruited Plains can pick me out instantly. I can't tell you how many people have asked me to repeat the word "bottul" to gales of laughter. One young woman liked to hear me say "cawfee." So much for "Je t'adore."
However, to recover some of my Brooklyn dignity, nyc.transit's resident linguist, Peter T. Daniels, confirmed for me that Brooklyn English still bears traces of Dutch influence, explaining a lot of the speech patterns others find so amusing.
My speech still has a Jersey flavor to it (uoff, cuoffee), with a slight Indiana twang (short a) mixed in. Native Coloradans will say "cahffee". People at work think I'm from New York, since I talk about it a lot, and are surprised when I tell them I've never lived there.
My speech still has a Jersey flavor to it (uoff, cuoffee), with a slight Indiana twang (short a) mixed in. Native Coloradans will say "cahffee". People at work think I'm from New York, since I talk about it a lot, and are surprised when I tell them I've never lived there.
Because so many New Jerseyites originally come from New York, or their parents do, I think that's why the New Jersey accent has such a New York flavor. I've come across natives of Miami that sound like they just got here from Brooklyn. I was shocked to find out that they've never been to New York. They have New York accents because their parents were from New York.
From
I'm a native Hoosier who happened to live in Jersey for 6 years. My folks are from the old country (Lithuania) and, well, that's another story for another time.
Hey, Paul. (not heypaul)
Occasionaly, I'll run into an original Canarsian who will say it 'Cannahsee'. The speech patterns of the old Canarsie residents was very similar to that of the Red Hook residents and many Hudson River area communities of New Jersey (New Joisey!)
Doug aka BMTman
I tawk funny too, but I'm not from Brooklyn. I was raised in Manhattan, 'n lateh moved ta Queens. I awlso say dis, daeh, doze, Noo Yawk, 'n uddah tings. I don't say chawklet, dough, like uddah Noo Yawkas. My wife, who is from the Midwest gets a kick out of the way I say met'l (metal). In truth, over the 19 years that I've been away from the City, I've lost a lot of the accent, but I still know how to turn it on when I want to. I have since learned how to pronounce my "ahs" (R's). Give my regahds ta Brawdway!
From
<< I've lost a lot of the accent, but I still know how to turn it on when I want to. >>
LOL! I was raised in my early years in da Bronx (Pelham Pkwy) before moving to Manhatten (Styvesant Town)and then out to the Island (Smithtown). After college and law school I moved to St. Louis, MO. I've been here 19 years and have also lost a lot of the accent. It's funny: locals immediately peg me as a Noo Yawkuh but people from Noo Yawk ask where I'm from! Anyway, after 24 hours or longer back home visiting my folks and brothers, who still live on Lon Guyland, my wife (a native Tennessean) says she can barely understand what I'm saying.
You can take the boy out of NY but (thank g-d!) you can't take NY out of the boy.
LOL! I was raised in my early years in da Bronx (Pelham Pkwy) before moving to Manhatten (Styvesant Town)and then out to the Island (Smithtown). After college and law school I moved to St. Louis, MO. I've been here 19 years and have also lost a lot of the accent. It's funny: locals immediately peg me as a Noo Yawkuh but people from Noo Yawk ask where I'm from! Anyway, after 24 hours or longer back home visiting my folks and brothers, who still live on Lon Guyland, my wife (a native Tennessean) says she can barely understand what I'm saying.
You can take the boy out of NY but (thank g-d!) you can't take NY out of the boy.
I run into the same thing from people regarding accents. Its da outa-townas (da locals in yaw town) dat peg ya as a Noo Yawka, awl da time! BTW, where and when did you live in Stuyvesant Town? I was born and raised at 18 Stuyvesant Oval. I lived there between 1954 and 1967. Then I moved to Queens until 1980. Now I'm in the Miami area.
From
<< where and when did you live in Stuyvesant Town? I was born and raised at 18 Stuyvesant Oval. I lived there between 1954 and 1967. >>
We lived there between 1959 and 1963. I'll check with my folks for the building address. Do you remember Schwarztburg's deli on First Ave.? (I think they were near BI Hospital). Great place! I attended PS-19 before we moved out to Smithtown.
We lived there between 1959 and 1963. I'll check with my folks for the building address. Do you remember Schwarztburg's deli on First Ave.? (I think they were near BI Hospital). Great place! I attended PS-19 before we moved out to Smithtown.
Sure do! My family frequented that deli quite often. When we didn't eat there, we got take-out. Pastrami and corned beef sandwiches on rye with knishes and potato salad. You must have lived on the 14th St. end if you went to PS 19. I lived toward the 20th St. end. I went to PS 40.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
<< You must have lived on the 14th St. end if you went to PS 19. I lived toward the 20th St. end. I went to PS 40. >>
If memory serves me correctly we lived on either 10th or 11th St. Do you remember the big "shower head" sprinklers in the asphalt playground areas? They would turn them on in the summer and all the kids would run around under the cool spray. Man, that is one of my fondest childhood memories!
If memory serves me correctly we lived on either 10th or 11th St. Do you remember the big "shower head" sprinklers in the asphalt playground areas? They would turn them on in the summer and all the kids would run around under the cool spray. Man, that is one of my fondest childhood memories!
Yes, I remember the sprinklers. I thought you said you lived in Stuyvesant Town. Stuyvesant Town's borders were First Ave. to Ave.C and 14th St. to 20th St. If you lived on 10th or 11th St., you didn't live in Stuyvesant Town. BTW, as a kid growing up, I did have 2 friends that lived just south of Stuyvesant Town. One lived on the corner of 12th St. and Ave. B. The other lived on 11th St. between Ave. A and Ave. B. Within Stuyvesant Town's borders, there is no grid, but if you can imagine the grid, my building would have been at 19th St. between Ave. B and Ave. C. Although I lived in Stuyvesant Town and mostly hung out in the S.T. playgrounds, I did go to Murphy Park quite a bit.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Lets see, Playgrounds 9 and 11 (out of a series of 12 -- collect them all!) had the sprinklers in Stuyvesant Town if I remember right, and Playground 2 had it in Peter Cooper Village.
There was also the swimming pool and the public bathhouse at 23rd St. and Asher Levy Place, though that was used mostly by kids either living north of 23rd or down below 14th. Amd Stuy Town had the big fountains in ther middle, but for some reason, parents and the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. never wanted to let you get into that one during the summer.
Lets see, Playgrounds 9 and 11 (out of a series of 12 -- collect them all!) had the sprinklers in Stuyvesant Town if I remember right, and Playground 2 had it in Peter Cooper Village.
There was also the swimming pool and the public bathhouse at 23rd St. and Asher Levy Place, though that was used mostly by kids either living north of 23rd or down below 14th. Amd Stuy Town had the big fountains in ther middle, but for some reason, parents and the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. never wanted to let you get into that one during the summer.
The Oval Fountain wasn't for swimming. It was just for show. Another thing that was forbidden was walking on the grass. I don't know how many times the guards reported to my parents that I was caught walking on the grass. Did you ever see the spectacular Christmas Tree display at the Oval Fountain during Christmas? At first, they put the trees up inside the fountain. Later on, they started putting up the trees behind the fountain. I had a birds-eye view of the Oval Fountain and the Christmas Tree Display from my window. The playground closest to me was Playground 10. BTW, my father told me that having windows facing the Oval Fountain cost $3 extra in the rent. Don't laugh, all you young guys. $3 was a lot of money back in the early 1960's. That was 20 subway tokens back then.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I know about the oval fountains. It's just that at the age of 4 or so, you don't see any reason why they shouldn't let you in it.
BTW -- somwhere in storage I have some pictures my dad shot of the complex in December, 1947, when some of the buildings still weren't completed. He also shot a picture looking out towards First Ave. when it was still two-way (and only many years later did I find out, just five years removed from having an elevated stop right above it at 19th St.) The photo did prove Worthheimer's butcher shop didn't change their outside sign for at least 20 years.
BTW -- somwhere in storage I have some pictures my dad shot of the complex in December, 1947, when some of the buildings still weren't completed. He also shot a picture looking out towards First Ave. when it was still two-way (and only many years later did I find out, just five years removed from having an elevated stop right above it at 19th St.) The photo did prove Worthheimer's butcher shop didn't change their outside sign for at least 20 years.
I don't know the year that everything was routed one way, but I remember 2-way traffic in Manhattan. My parents moved into Stuyvesant Town in 1948. I came on the scene in 1954. I remember cobble stone streets with trolley tracks. When I was a small child, having never seen a trolley, I couldn't figure out what "train" tracks were doing right in the middle of the street!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
<< I thought you said you lived in Stuyvesant Town. Stuyvesant Town's borders were First Ave. to Ave.C and 14th St. to 20th St. >>
Right. I checked with my folks and we lived on 14th St. and First Ave. It was my aunt who lived on 11th.
Right. I checked with my folks and we lived on 14th St. and First Ave. It was my aunt who lived on 11th.
How convenient. You were right on top of the subway.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT Lines: You live in Florida? That's the first time I've realized it. You seem to know what's going on in New York, so it never occurred to me that you were now a foreigner like me. My brother recently retired and moved to Alachua, near Gainesville. He loves it and I plan to visit him next summer. You are right about one thing. When we return to New York, they know right off that we are not from there. I got a ton of it when traveled through the outer boroughs, but little of it in Manhattan where most out of towners wind up living if they move there, plus that's where all the tourists hang out. I stayed at the Pan-American in Queens so I dealt with New Yorkers. If you listen carefully to me, you can pick out a word or so
that types me as a former New Yorker. Hey, we should be proud of our
New York roots. Show me a person who ashamed of his background and I'll show you a real jerk.
BMT Lines: You live in Florida? That's the first time I've realized it. You seem to know what's going on in New York, so it never occurred to me that you were now a foreigner like me. My brother recently retired and moved to Alachua, near Gainesville. He loves it and I plan to visit him next summer. You are right about one thing. When we return to New York, they know right off that we are not from there. I got a ton of it when traveled through the outer boroughs, but little of it in Manhattan where most out of towners wind up living if they move there, plus that's where all the tourists hang out. I stayed at the Pan-American in Queens so I dealt with New Yorkers. If you listen carefully to me, you can pick out a word or so
that types me as a former New Yorker. Hey, we should be proud of our
New York roots. Show me a person who ashamed of his background and I'll show you a real jerk.
I was born in 1954 in Manhattan, lived there until 1967, mioved to Queens and lived there until 1980 when I moved to South Florida (Miami-Ft. Lauderdale area). I've been living here since. Unfortunately, I have not been back for a visit since I left. At times, I get very homesick. Post-season play with the Mets and the Yankees made me very homesick last fall. This BB and the nycsubway.org site helps keep me in touch with what's going on back home with the trains. Unlike you, with California, I don't consider Florida my home. New York is. I live here. I may even own the roof over my head, but my home is New York City. Everyone, even my wife keeps telling me that I'm homesick because I never went back for a visit, that if I did, I wouldn't want to live there again because so much has changed, and New York is not the same city that I left. I don't know about that. I'd have to experience current-day New York myself to make that judgement. Others here in Florida, also originally from New York say they like to go back for a visit, but they wouldn't want to live there again. If I went back for a visit, I would probably need 2 months to ride all the subway lines, take pictures and visit all the people I used to know. Then, I think I wouldn't want to leave. It would be culture shock for me. When I left, the R-10's,R-12/14's, R-15's, R-16's, R-17's, R-21/22's and R-37/30's were still running. I never rode an R-62 or an R-68. I've never seen Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island stations or the Archer Ave. Line in service, except for pics on this web site. I've never experienced the rolling stock after GOH. R-40's and R-40M's are not meant to have high windows in their doors, and I hate what they did to the front of the R-32's and R-38's. Also, when I left, street signs were still in their borough's colors. The white over green looks like here. I guess the white over green has become the national standard for street signs. I missed the 100th Anniversary of the Brooklyn Bridge and the 100th Anniversary of Greater New York. I will most likely miss the 100th Anniversary of the IRT in 2004. Life sucks sometimes.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Hey, c'mon, its not like you live in Australia or something. You can make it to NYC in less than 24 hrs!!!
By the way,if you do come back try finding:an automat a cafeteria (at least not an employee caft.)trolley tracks & cobblestoneChecker cabsels with wooden walkways the West Side Elevated HwayRoosevelt Raceway & the majority of Yonkers Racwaythe ol wooden parkway lightsdirty movies on 42nd betw 7Av & 8Av etc.etc.etc.
"trolley tracks & cobblestone"
That's so easy, there are many trolley tracks where pavement has worn off, or not even applied! and of course Forgotten NY has a whole section dedicated to still extant cobblestone streets, just check out Bond Street in the Central Village, or many streets in TriBeCa.
And with the exception of dirty movies, all of the above things were the same in 1980 as they are now. And wooden lights are still the only method of lighting on Jones Beach's Ocean Parkway.
P.S. Roosevelt Raceway still stands, it might be abandoned, but it still stands.
Actually, even though BMT left the city in 1980 I really wasn't using that year. Just generally comparing the past to the present. When I was a kid in the 60's (just like BMT Lines) the subways still had alotta pre-war cars. The IND was majority R1-9's. Q types on the Myrtle, Low V's on the Third Av (Bronx) and Standards on the "LL". Bull & Pinion gear sounds on the LIRR electrics too. The stereotype cab in the city was a checker, the stereotype cabbie was Jewish or Italian with a zillion stories to tell each fare, and the only accent he had was the type in the SUBJECT of this thread!!! You got your lunch out of a coin operated window at the automat and cranked your coffee after putting in a dime. Or you went to the many cafeterias such a Dubrows at the Kings Hway Brighton stop, the Belmore at 28th & Park (the cabbies' hangout),or the Jerome opposite Yankee Stadium. There were many bakeries and many kosher deli's.
Oh, I better stop, I'm sounding like my parents used to sound!!!
You don't sound like your parents until you bring up the fact that you had to walk to school barefoot in June through a foot of snow, uphill in both directions.
-Hank
There were many bakeries and many kosher deli's.
Don't forget the old fashioned Kosher butchers. Remember before the days of packaged meat, when the butcher would cut your meat in front of you and weigh it? There was sawdust on a wooden floor, and the cash register was ornate, and was hand-cranked. Same thing with the Fresh-Fish store. Don't forget when there were real telephone booths, with a rotary phone inside. Of course, these were all over the country, not just New York. All the 1904 IRT stations had kiosk entrances until about the mid-sixties. Going to the drug store meant the small independently-owned drug store - the corner drug store. Same thing with the toy store and the candy store. Fifteen-cent pizza, 15¢ fare, 10 and 15¢ kites, 25¢ Spaldeens. When I was a small kid, there was one bathroom, one black and white tube console TV (VHF only), one tube radio and one rotary telephone for the whole family.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Hey, c'mon, its not like you live in Australia or something. You can make it to NYC in less than 24 hrs!!!
When I have the time, I don't have the money. when I have the money, I don't have the time. I never have both at the same time. Right now, I have plenty of time but no money.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They new these comments would gather attention, and increase sales. They're right.
As I have said before, John Rocker is the product of too much inbreeding.
Good News: Rocker is describing the past, not the present.
Bad News: He might be describing the future, if certain people get their way.
Excuse me...
How many passengers does the NYC Subway carry each day? Have I heard 7 MILLION? With so many people, there are bound to be more than a few who don't live up to certain peoples' "standards". No matter what they look like, no matter what their background or personal problems, they have a right to ride PUBLIC transport so long as they have a valid fare payment and they obey the rules and regs.
Larry, your comment was every bit as ignorant and bigoted as Rocker's.
As I said, I think everyone is taking this Rocker thing too seriously. He's a professional wrestling type guy, putting out BS to get publicity. Red neck version of the Sensation exhibit that had everyone getting all hot and bothered. He'll probably be wrestling a non-English speaking New Yorker on pay-per-view in a couple of months.
As I said, I think everyone is taking this Rocker thing too seriously. He's a professional wrestling type guy, putting out BS to get publicity. Red neck version of the Sensation exhibit that had everyone getting all hot and bothered. He'll probably be wrestling a non-English speaking New Yorker on pay-per-view in a couple of months.
John Rocker is just a stupid, ignorant red neck hick from the back woods of rural Georgia who hates anything and anylone that's city. All he is is an instigating bully that gets a rise from antagonizing people. Then he wonders why people spit at him, throw bottles at him andsay things about his mother. I'd like to see that ******* walk the streets of the South Bronx shooting his mouth off. Get the a--hole a pair of overalls, a cowboy hat, a case of Budweiser and a pick-up truck with a German Shepard and a gun rack. F---ing redneck!
From
WhatJohn Rocker needs to understand is that what he saw on that #7 train was what made America the greatest civilized nation in the history of the human race. He saw people from many lands give up their citizenship to their homeland, their culture, their language just to try to better themselves. He saw people who worked menial jobs almost no one else would do for low pay, and being THANKFUL for that opportunity.
America is a country made up of all the peoples of the world who were stupidly forced out of their country by poverty or persecution. We took them, gave them the opportunities that their mother countries denied them, and look what they've accomplished. We are all foriegners. It's why America is a great nation.
{cue the waving flag and the Star Spangled Banner}
["Imagine having to take the 7 train ... looking like you're (in) Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids," Rocker said. "It's depressing."]
His knowledge of foreign countries is rather lacking. If there were a subway in Beirut (I don't think there is one), you certainly wouldn't see this particular scenario!
His knowledge of foreign countries is rather lacking. If there were a subway in Beirut (I don't think there is one), you certainly wouldn't see this particular scenario!
Beirut has no subway, and no, you wouldn't see this scenario. In London or Paris, maybe, but not Beirut.
From
More likely in Paris since it has more Arabs living in France then the UK
Not that I don't think the jerk is completely capable of acting like an idiot, but somehow I feel like some Sports Illustrated writer may have helped John along a bit, since I doubt the guy is smart enough to know the No. 7 is the line that goes to Shea Stadium or the ethnic make-up of the neighborhoods on the way from Manhattan to Flushing.
Not that any magazine or Rocker himself would have any reason to pump up the controversy for greater publicity and news stand sales (that NEVER happens), but after reading the first part of the story, I half expected him to say something like: "and you just sweat to death in those R-33 singles in the summer."
Here's the Associated Press story from today.
---
NEW YORK (AP) -- John Rocker is at it again.
The eccentric Atlanta Braves closer bashed New Yorkers, particularly Mets fans, and the city's residents in this week's issue of Sports Illustrated.
``Imagine having to take the 7 train to (Shea Stadium) looking like you're (in) Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids,'' Rocker said. ``It's depressing.''
The left-hander stirred controversy during the NL playoffs in October by calling New York fans ``stupid,'' and ``a tired act'' before the Braves arrived in New York. That made him a target of Mets fans in the three games played at Shea Stadium.
Continuing his tirade against Mets fans, he said: ``Nowhere else in the country do people spit at you, throw bottles at you, throw quarters at you'' and, he said, make vulgar comments about your mother.
Rocker, who said he would retire before ever playing for a New York team, also slammed the city's diverse population.
``The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners,'' he said.
``You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?''
His comment answers a long, nagging question of mine: how sports figures, with large salaries in particular, get to their respective games. Unless this is his was of saying he doesn't make enough $$$ and therefore needs to ride with the common folk.
Joe C
At least Rocker didn't say New York is going downhill. If he had been in the City 100 years ago, he'd have had the same complaints, except it would have been people speaking Italian instead of Spanish.
John Olerud used to take the subway to Shea when his wife needed the car. I even saw him once....
-Hank
He hasn t been to Broadway in Downtown LA, Certain Areas in Downtown SF, MIAMI. Dallas Etc.
He hasn t been to Broadway in Downtown LA, Certain Areas in Downtown SF, MIAMI. Dallas Etc. I think the Braves should change their name to the old Atlanta Minor League Name the CRACKERS, since Rocker is the biggest Cracker of all, And then there is the Tomahawk Choke, opps chop
Is CRACKER the the term used for whites as the "N" word is used for blacks? (#1 Brighton Exp Bob)
[Is CRACKER the the term used for whites as the "N" word is used for blacks? (#1 Brighton Exp Bob)]
"Cracker" specifically means a rural, working-class southern white person. It's not really a derogatory term, unlike "redneck," and is often used a a term of pride by the "crackers" themselves.
Pretty much, Redneck has been incorporated at a self-description term, just as N___R has for Blacks. They're both in the "we can say it about ourselves, but don't you say it" category.
People get a little too bent of shape. Instead of pitching a fit, the Mayor could have invited the national press to take a camera and ride the #7. Invite a few Rednecks along. More good publicity for the city, and for the TA.
BTW, my parents will be in town over Christmas, and they're planning to ride the subway for the first time since the early 1960s. They have lived in Tulsa OK since 1977, and have always wondered why I would come back the that "big, dirty, old, city. Their attitude toward the subway has been about the same as John Rocker's. Hopefully they'll be pleasantly surprised.
One further note: the NY Metro area is not without its bigotry. While it is less likely than the rest of the country to have race, social, and lifestyle bigotry it has more class bigotry. If you don't have a college diploma, many people around here don't consider you a person.
[Pretty much, Redneck has been incorporated at a self-description term, just as N___R has for Blacks. They're both in the "we can say it about ourselves, but don't you say it" category.]
How absurd. Seems to me, if your group doesn't want other people using a particular term, then the members of the group shouldn't be using it about themselves.
(One further note: the NY Metro area is not without its bigotry. While it is less likely than the rest of the country to have race, social, and lifestyle bigotry it has more class bigotry. If you don't have a college diploma, many people around here don't consider you a person.)
In most places I have worked that is true. There is always a feeling of uneasiness between the professional and admininstrative staffs. Many on the professional staff look down upon the admistrative staff as second class citizens, and the administrative staff feels resentment to the professional staff. You never see anyone from the professional side going to lunch with the administrative people. It dosen't have to be that way.
Ah, like from Friends, the white coats and blue blazers.
BTW, my parents will be in town over Christmas, and they're planning to ride the subway for the first time since the early 1960s. They have lived in Tulsa OK since 1977, and have always wondered why I would come back the that "big, dirty, old, city. Their attitude toward the subway has been about the same as John Rocker's. Hopefully they'll be pleasantly surprised.
I have known a lot of New Yorkers (some that never left the City, as well as some who did leave the City) that hate the subway. To them, it is a necessary evil that must be tolerated. They think I'm nuts when they find out that I love the subway and that it is a big hobby of mine. They can't understand why anyone would want to go joy-riding on the subway. Hey, that's their problem.
One further note: the NY Metro area is not without its bigotry. While it is less likely than the rest of the country to have race, social, and lifestyle bigotry it has more class bigotry. If you don't have a college diploma, many people around here don't consider you a person.
I have a four-year college degree. It has never done anything for me. I have a BBA in Marketing-Management. I never worked in my field. My degree never got me a decent job. all the degree has ever gotten me was a job as a caseworker in the welfare and foodstamp office. I did that for 2 years in New York, and for 10 years in South Florida. It finally came to the point that I could take no more, so I walked off the job 5 years ago and never went back. I will never do casework again, ever! I probably would have been much better off becoming an auto mechanic, an electrician or a plumber. Recently, I went to a community college and received an AS degree in Multimedia Technology. The familiar scenario that has been haunting me since the 1970's was here again, even after making the National Dean's List in 1997 and 1998 - no experience, no job. I now have a home business designing web sites. If I would have known that the four-year degree was going to be a waste, I never would have gone for it. Also, if I would have known that making the National Dean's List would also get me nowhere, I wouldn't have busted my butt so hard in Multimedia class. BTW, my train web site, NYC TRANSIT was my Final Project for Internet Site Design Class. I received an A for the project and an A for the course. My instructor, also a native New Yorker, loved the site. To my knowledge, I'm the only one in that class who still has his class assignment (from April, 1998) on the Web.
From
Hey, BMTLines!
Your case only proves what my wife always repeats to me: sometimes getting a great job in life is not WHAT you know, but WHO you know.
She makes mega-bucks as a secretary with nothing more than secretarial school training (she pulls more $$$ than me). The thing is she was introduced to her employer through her father's fraternal organization -- and the rest as they say is history.
I know guys with B.A.s and Master's who are close to waiting tables or doing Postal delivery jobs. The thing is, they never had anyone who opened a door for them.
One thing I have learned is: get the basics -- a two-year or B.A./B.S. -- then enter the job market. DON'T go for any degree higher than those because chances are, your employer may not have finished much past that him/herself and could easily feel you are "over-qualified" and get scared out of hiring you. This is a very common situation -- but one that is never explained to those who go for job counseling at placement agencies.
Anyhow, thanks for the story. I appreciated it.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, BMTLines!
Your case only proves what my wife always repeats to me: sometimes getting a great job in life is not WHAT you know, but WHO you know.
She makes mega-bucks as a secretary with nothing more than secretarial school training (she pulls more $$$ than me). The thing is she was introduced to her employer through her father's fraternal organization -- and the rest as they say is history.
I know guys with B.A.s and Master's who are close to waiting tables or doing Postal delivery jobs. The thing is, they never had anyone who opened a door for them.
One thing I have learned is: get the basics -- a two-year or B.A./B.S. -- then enter the job market. DON'T go for any degree higher than those because chances are, your employer may not have finished much past that him/herself and could easily feel you are "over-qualified" and get scared out of hiring you. This is a very common situation -- but one that is never explained to those who go for job counseling at placement agencies.
Anyhow, thanks for the story. I appreciated it.
Doug aka BMTman
Everything you said is entirely correct and accurate. You can be the best choice, but if there's noone to open the door for you, forget it. That's why the big trend today is the home business. Most people who do home businesses do it because they can't get anyone to hire them. Its a struggle. I could use more customers. If I could get as much work as I could handle, I could probably make $80-100,000 a year doing Web Sites.
From
(Most people who do home businesses do it because they can't get anyone to hire them. Its a struggle. I could use more customers. If I could get as much work as I could handle, I could probably make $80-100,000 a year doing Web Sites.)
That is partly true. I know enough people who were sick of the corporate rat race, (and the subway) and prefer to work at home, even if it means less money and no benefits. They feel their sanity is more important that a few extra bucks.
Working at home is great for my wife who can still take care of the kids and we don't have to incurr heavy child care expenses. She makes less than a full time job would pay, but when you subtract the additional costs, its a wash.
That is partly true. I know enough people who were sick of the corporate rat race, (and the subway) and prefer to work at home, even if it means less money and no benefits. They feel their sanity is more important that a few extra bucks.
Working at home is great for my wife who can still take care of the kids and we don't have to incurr heavy child care expenses. She makes less than a full time job would pay, but when you subtract the additional costs, its a wash.
I agree. Most jobs suck, with a Capital "S". the same goes for the bosses. As for women who work at home, I know it makes perfect sense. The cost of child care can be prohibitive. Also, you get to raise your kids, instead of letting the daycare center do it.
When you work at home, you avoid the expense and hassle of commuting, the cost of a wardrobe for business purposes, the cost of eating lunches out. Its much more economical to eat lunch at home. Also, in my case, I can do my work whenever I feel like it, and that's usually when everyone else is asleep. One other advantage is that I get to declare my computer software and hardware, along with my Internet account as a business expense for tax purposes. If I ever get a dedicated phone line just for the Internet, I'll be able to declare that expense too.
From
I haven't really been following the John Rocker thread, though I have just been reading some of it now.
Larry said: The New York Metro area is not without its bigotry. While it is less likely than the rest
of the country to have race, social, and lifestyle
bigotry, it has more class bigotry. If you don't
have a college diploma, many people around here
don't consider you a person.
I don't know where to begin with that paragraph. I
think New York has a load of race, social, and
lifestyle bigotry. Look into the head of many
middle age and older people, and you'll find a pot
boiling over with bigotries toward blacks, jews,
gays, women, hispanics, russian immigrants,
italians, cops, young people, college students,
yuppies, boomers, you name it.
As for those who don't consider you a person if you
don't have a college diploma--- well that just goes to show how much they have to learn about what it
means to be a person. They may need their college
diplomas to be part of the screwing and raping of
this country's wealth and spirit, but if bad times
ever befall our fair city, they will need more than
their diploma and virtual wealth to protect them
from what they have created.
Granted, controversy is always great for selling magazines, but I wouldn't underestimate Mr. Rocker's ability to hang himself. From what I remember from profiles about him during the playoffs, it seemed like he had read a lot about the city, but filtered it all through his ignorant redneck prism.
As a journalist who's gotten similar kinds of inflammatory answers from interview subjects, I can tell you that it's not a position you want to be in -- because there's so much distrust of the media nowadays, even if you report it faithfully and accurately, you can still be smeared in the post-publication firestorm.
On a lighter note, anyone else think that this hatred of foreigners sprang up after El Duque embarrassed the Braves in Game 1 of the series? :-)
Oh I think the guy is perfectly capable of saying somthing assinine on his own -- he just doesn't strike me as someone smart enough to remeber the No. 7 train goes to Flushing, let alone figure out how to use a Metrocard, though he does strike me as a possible token sucker.
I think whoever did the story for SI (have to wait to see the full thing later this week) probably fed him a little info to "improve" on the response.
J Lee, I bet you are right. I can't see a redneck hillbilly like Rocker ever having ridden or knowing anything about Flushing (he doesn't even know about the plumbing aspect of flushing since he lives in an outhouse):-)
Doug aka BMTman
And the problem with trains is that unlike his house, it doesn't have furniture, even though both have wheels.
About the spitting and batteries-
I guess he was never in Philadelphia's Veterans Stadium, huh? JD Drew got batteries hurled at him; when Michael Irvin was hurt, they CHEERED when they took the guy off the field on a stretcher. And when was the last time there was a full-scale riot when a NY team won a championship, ala Denver, Chicago, Detroit...
-Hank
when Michael Irvin was hurt, they CHEERED when they took the guy off the field on a stretcher
Fans always do that. Its not to mock the player or to make a statment that they're glad he got hurt. It is rather a tribute to the player and a sign of respect, that he went down while playing, and deserves a hand as he leaves the field. Although, if John Rocker got smashed in the face by a would-be home run ball at either Shea or Yankee Stadium, then I think the fans would be cheering that he got hurt. I know that I would be in the cheering section if I was at a game and saw him take a ball in the face. That would shut him up for a while!
From
No, it was very derisive. The TV people commented on it, and it was big news. Many refered to the phans in Philly as 'boorish' and 'cretins'
-Hank
No, it was very derisive. The TV people commented on it, and it was big news. Many refered to the phans in Philly as 'boorish' and 'cretins'
-Hank
What is their problem over in Philadelphia? The usual reaction from fans anywhere, when a player gets hurt is to cheer him when he leaves the field, not the fact that he got hurt, even though he may be on the visiting team.
From
Philly fans boo Santa Claus, their city is stuck in between the business and polticial capitals of the world and they blew their chance to become the major East Coast city 212 years ago.
The Almond Joys and the Market Street line is pretty near, though.
"....and they blew their chance to become the major East Coast city 212 years ago."
They were the major east coast city 215 years ago, and Chicago was the major city 312 years ago.
They were the major east coast city 215 years ago, and Chicago was the major city 312 years ago.
Chicago wasn't even in existnce in 1687.
From
New York is the major east coast city, a title which J Lee says Philadelphia lost 212 years ago. 212 is one of three area codes in Manhattan (along with 917 and 646). 215 is the area code in Philadelphia, 312 is in Chicago.
New York is the major east coast city, a title which J Lee says Philadelphia lost 212 years ago. 212 is one of three area codes in Manhattan (along with 917 and 646). 215 is the area code in Philadelphia, 312 is in Chicago.
Yeah, but you said "They were the major east coast city 215 years ago, and Chicago was the major city 312 years ago" You didn't mention anything about area codes in that post. BTW, I ought to know about the 212 area code. It was the only area code in NYC while I was living there. I had 212 in Manhattan and also in Queens. New area codes have popped up like weeds all over the country, mostly due to dedicated fax machines, cell phones, beepers and dedicated internet connections. I can't even keep up with new area codes anymore, even in my area. What was once just 305, expanded to 407, 561, 954 and 2 others that I can't remember. Mine started as 305 in 1980. Now its 954. Who knows what my area code will be by 2002! :-)
From
I know I didn't that was my point. It was an area code pun. I know about the old days. My grandparents have an old phone in their kitchen, the number is printed on a tab inside and it says:
AREA
CODE
212 xxx-xxxx
They live in Brooklyn.
In my household alone there are 3 area codes (718, 917 and 347).
Remember the old phone exchanges? In Bklyn there were ESplanade, CLoverdale, etc. On L.I. we had IVanhoe. Years ago Manhattan had SPring and the number for NYPD Police Headquarters in the 30's was SPring 3100. (1 less digit) They started the in-house magazine for NYPD employees (cops & civilians) back then, called it Spring 3100 and the magazine is still called that 70 yrs later!!!
In Manhattan I had ORegon. In Queens they were using numeric exchanges already, but I heard that my 271 exchange was AR1. Don't ask me what the AR stands for, I don't know.
From
SPRING is the exchange for Moviefone. SPR-FILM
There were also MUrray Hill and BRyant, which I still remember from commercials in 1967.
[New area codes have popped up like weeds all over the country, mostly
due to dedicated fax machines, cell phones, beepers and dedicated
internet connections.]
Expansion in the number of active telephone lines is only part of the reason why there's been such a large increase in area codes. Every company that offers telephone service in a particular region has the right to "blocks" of 10,000 numbers reserved in its name, even if only a small fraction are actually in use. All these block reservations have caused a shortage of numbers in many area codes even though there almost always are many unused numbers.
It wasn't too long ago that all of Colorado had the 303 area code. Since I've been out here, three more area codes have been added: 719 for southeastern CO including Colorado Springs and Pueblo; 970 for the northeastern and Rocky Mountain portions of the state; and 720, which overlaps the remaining 303 calling area (metro Denver). Existing 303 numbers didn't change, but the flipside is that we (those of us in metro Denver) now have to dial 10 digits for local calls, without the "1" at the beginning.
IIRC, there are 13 states which still have a single area code.
It still feels odd to have to use 773 when calling my aunt in Chicago after all those years of using 312.
AGGGGHHHH!!! The company I work for, we have stores all across the country. No one bothers to tell them, or us, that the phone numbers are being changed. So we field calls from people who can't dial in to the UUNet network, all because they now either have to dial 10 digits, or their area code changed but the dial-in didn't. Then, when we have occasion to call these stores, we can't reach them because their area code has changed! I am in charge of maintaining the phone listing for my department, and I'm just a &*^%(& consultant.
-Hank
I hear the FCC is trying to force New York to adopt 10 digit dialing if it continues the overlay (which is a MUST in Manhattan). Any word on that happening? How about the new Suffolk and 914 except for Westchester area code?
Sorry about going off topic, sometimes the discussion just leads to it.
If an area has overlapping area codes, as we have in Denver, then there's no other choice. The only difference is that it's still a local call, in which case you don't dial "1" in front of the number.
(Numbers and telephone area codes aside for a second...)
But here's the catch: A strong argument can be made that if it weren't for Chicago, New York would be just another Philadelphia today. (And conversely, if it weren't for New York, Chicago would be just another Milwaukee.)
Of the three major cities on the East Coast (Boston, NYC and Philly), New York was the only one that had a direct water connection to Chicago, by way of the Erie Canal and the Great Lakes water system. At the Chicago end, there was the Illinois and Michigan Canal connecting the Great Lakes with the entire Mississppi water system. The I&M canal and early investment in Chicago was largely financed by New York interests in an effort to position New York as a major transportation hub. It worked, and in the process, Chicago was built and New York grew into a major world city.
The trade routes basically formed an hourglass pattern: Agriculture and livestock are produced in the Plains, gathered in Chicago and shipped to New York, and then distributed around the world. The narrow point in the hourglass would be the Great Lakes water system, with Chicago and New York at each end.
Of course, the canals were soon replaced by railroads and highways, but the pattern remained the same for many years and still continues to do so today to some extent. In essence, the two greatest cities in the country helped build each other, and were able to leave their regional rivals in the dust in the process.
Here endeth the lesson...
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[A strong argument can be made that if it weren't for Chicago, New York would be just another Philadelphia today. (And conversely, if it weren't for New York, Chicago would be just another Milwaukee.)
Of the three major cities on the East Coast (Boston, NYC and Philly), New York was the only one that had a direct water connection to Chicago, by way of the Erie Canal and the Great Lakes water system. At the Chicago end, there was the Illinois and Michigan Canal connecting the Great Lakes with the entire Mississppi water system. The I&M canal and early investment in Chicago was largely financed by New York interests in an effort to position New York as a major transportation hub. It worked, and in the process, Chicago was built and New York grew into a major world city.]
Interesting observations, but I'm not quite sure I'd agree with everything as far as NYC is concerned (I'm not so sure about Chicago's history). I had thought - please correct me if I'm wrong - that NYC was already the country's largest and by many standards the most important city by the time the Erie Canal opened, having overtaken Philadelphia many years earlier. It wasn't as if the city grew into the nation's most economically influential city because of the Erie Canal. Rather, it was the opposite - the Canal was built because NYC *already* was so influential. This isn't to say that the Canal wasn't a crucial factor in NYC's continued growth, but it may not have been the be-all-and-end-all factor.
It's rather interesting to note that the Erie Canal's influence eventually went into eclipse. Nationally, inland waterways are a vital channel for commercial shipping. River cities such as St. Louis and Pittsburgh are among the country's largest ports, and even such states as Oklahoma and Idaho have commercial ports. Yet the Erie Canal's successor, the NYS Barge Canal, has almost completely faded from the scene. Today it's used almost exclusively, or possibly just plain exclusively, by pleasure boats, commercial shipping having vanished. Quite an asset to squander, though I guess that's New York for you :-(
Interesting observations, but I'm not quite sure I'd agree with everything as far as NYC is concerned (I'm not so sure about Chicago's history). I had thought - please correct me if I'm wrong - that NYC was already the country's largest and by many standards the most important city by the time the Erie Canal opened, having overtaken Philadelphia many years earlier. It wasn't as if the city grew into the nation's most economically influential city because of the Erie Canal. Rather, it was the opposite - the Canal was built because NYC *already* was so influential. This isn't to say that the Canal wasn't a crucial factor in NYC's continued growth, but it may not have been the be-all-and-end-all factor.
It's rather interesting to note that the Erie Canal's influence eventually went into eclipse. Nationally, inland waterways are a vital channel for commercial shipping. River cities such as St. Louis and Pittsburgh are among the country's largest ports, and even such states as Oklahoma and Idaho have commercial ports. Yet the Erie Canal's successor, the NYS Barge Canal, has almost completely faded from the scene. Today it's used almost exclusively, or possibly just plain exclusively, by pleasure boats, commercial shipping having vanished. Quite an asset to squander, though I guess that's New York for you :-(
I agree with your line of thinking on this issue. I saw the PBS special. It was the Erie Canal that made possible any development west of the Appalachians. It was the Erie Canal that made possible the growth of the Midwest, including Chicago, St. Louis, etc. New York was already a solid major city. It was the cities that connected with the Erie Canal and the Mississippi River system that were dependent on NYC for international commerce. New York was their gateway to internatiional commerce.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
NYC doesn't riot when it wins a championship, because there is one almost every couple of years, if you want to include the Jersey Teams. At least one team a years seems to win at least a division championship in some sport
Maybe there hasn't been any rioting in the streets after a championship in NY, but I vivdly remember how the field at Shea got all torn up in 1969, after the pennant clincher in 1973, and the division clincher in 1986.
Different mayor.
At least no one got on the field when the Mets won the Series in '86.
Maybe there hasn't been any rioting in the streets after a championship in NY, but I vivdly remember how the field at Shea got all torn up in 1969, after the pennant clincher in 1973, and the division clincher in 1986.
The same thing happened at Yankee Stadium in 1976 when the Yankees won their first pennant since 1964.
From
They solved the problem in the 1986 World Series by having the mounted police on the filed before the final out was recoreded. Wade Boggs seemed to enjoy in in 1996.
I remember that, too. If you watch the replay of Chris Chambliss's home run, it appears Chambliss missed home plate because of fans storming the field.
But it's not looting, bonfires, and overturning cars like in Chicago and Denver.
-Hank
Sad but true. OTOH, there were no reports of any RTD bus drivers in Denver saying, "Everybody on free!" as was the case of a Madison Ave. bus driver in 1969.
This person is a professional athlete. Unfortunately, as we have seen all too often recently, (Latrell Spreewell, O.J. Simpson, Rae Caruth and the idiot that smacked the Ref. last Sunday) that professional athletes these days do not possess any more intellect, common sense or character than our society as a whole. This person is apparently on the low end of the evolutionary scale and should not be permitted to be a representative of a multi-billion dollar enteprise like major leage baseball. How do we reward his comments? If I had my way, I would not fill Shea Stadium with booing fans when Atlanta comes to town. Instead, I'd love to see a total NY boycott of the games. In that way we deny Ted Turner & Hanoi Jane a big payday for the days that their team is in NYC. Perhaps then they will rethink which inbred morons they allow to wear an Atlanta Brave uniform.
"Hanoi Jane"
Thanks Steve. I and I'm sure others forget sometimes the extent of the traitorous behaviour this country allows it's citizens. She's a repehensible individual and it's no surprise her husband employs such a cretin.
But that's America. What makes it great is the freedom to make an ass out of yourself. Or say the greatest truths. Benjamin Franklin. Abraham Lincoln. Martin Luther King Jr. Hanoi Jane. Free speech. You don't have to like what they say. But you have to respect their right to say it.
Well said, Erik. I'm a Southerner and a Braves fan, but Rocker, Turner, and Jane don't reflect my view of the world at all. Regardless, they're entitled to see things their way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do you mean,LATELY?? You,obviously, have never read BALL FOUR...But otherwise about Mr Rocker: What do ya expect when you give an ignorant redneck millions of dollars? Especially one who can't even drive very well? And as far as the Hanoi Jane stuff: I bet you NEVER did anything stupid when you were younger, and supposedly knew EVERTHING??
Yup, I sure did Lou. But I never "gave aid and comfort to the enemy", strictly forbidden in our constitution.
Technically we were not at war with North Viet Nam so it was not treason. Read your Constitution. I disagree for what she did, but that was 30 years ago. We are now allies with our WWII enemies, and enemies with 2 allies of the 70s(Iran) and 80s(Iraq) and close to going into a little battle with a 1990 Allie(Afganastan)
"Technically we were not at war with North Viet Nam "
Yup, you too are correct. I'm also sure that subtlety was lost on the families of the 50,000+ American soldiers who didn't know we weren't 'technically' at war.
Let's not forget their families who will never be a peace from that "war", or the veterans who have been scarred for life by the Hanoi Jane types who called them baby killers.
Let's not forget their families who will never be a peace from that "war", or the veterans who have been scarred for life by the Hanoi Jane types who called them baby killers.
Yes. Whether you were for or against the Viet Nam War, the true victims were the American Military War Veterans that served. They put their lives on the line to serve their country. Some even suffered being wounded in action, amputated limbs, being imprisoned and tortured as PW's, only to come home and be scorned and rejected as if they were the enemy. In the mean while, we elect good old Bill (the draft dodger) Clinton to be our President. I would like to see the Viet Nam War Veteran and ex-PW, John McCain elected as President in 2000. As for Hanoi Jane, she should have been stripped of her US citizenship and deported to the Soviet Union.
From
Damn! I'm not alone in my support of John McCain!
Damn! I'm not alone in my support of John McCain!
We need a hawk in the White House. I was very impressed with his ideas on how to deal with the Kosovo situation. I was saying the same things about a ground war, and I was hoping that the Prez was going to listen to him, being a Senator, a Veteran and a former PW. A ground war would have shortend the Kosovo crisis and would have saved many lives.
From
I like his economic theories and believe of all the candidates he's the only one with character. Forget the current occupant of the White House, Mr. DNA sample. Or his heir apparent, Algore. (pronounced like Igor)
You can always tell a good presidential candidate by the news coverage he gets. If the press demonizes him, they're afraid of him and most likely he's the best one. Listen to what the man says. If you agree with most of it, then vote for him.
If the press loves the guy, like they loved Commander in Cheat, then he's the wrong guy! Run!
[Press bashes the best candidates]
By this rationale, you should be pounding the table for George W. Bush, who is just getting pillaged (I'm not losing any sleep over it -- it seems deserved).
From what I've seen, McCain is getting great press coverage. Which is fine by me. I'd love to see McCain-Bradley. Hell, I'd love to see them as running mates!
As a Democrat, Im disgusted with the SICK WILLIE administration selling Israel down the toilet so McCain would be my choice against Al Bore.
As a Democrat, Im disgusted with the SICK WILLIE administration selling Israel down the toilet so McCain would be my choice against Al Bore.
Right before the 1996 Presidential election, Clinton became the first US President to invite Yasser Arafat (who I still consider a terrorist) to the White House as his guest. He also pledged $10,000,000 in financial aid to the "Palestinian Authority". Yet Jews all across this country voted for Clinton in 1996, just as they did in 1992. It is the Clinton Administration that put pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu to give up more land to the Palestinians. Now, Israel has a real jerk, just like Rabin and Peres, who wants to give up everything. Giving up the Golan Heights is a grave mistake. They're going to give the strategic Golan Heights to the Syrians, who still want nothing less than the destruction of the State of Israel. Now the Syrians have sophisticated missiles, which they didn't have in 1967, and Barak is goinhg to give the Syrians an excellent place to launch them at Israel from. It is the Clinton Administration's desire to see Israel give the Palestinians and the Syrians every square inch of land that they won during the Six-Day War in 1967. Anyone who thinks you can buy peace with land needs to look in his history book, and see what happened when Neville Chamberlain tried to do the same thing with Hitler in 1938.
From
And so many forget that. I'm far from an ultra-rightist, but I agree - land for peace has never worked and never will.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's true, as most Native American tribes learned the hard way in the 19th century.
That's true, as most Native American tribes learned the hard way in the 19th century.
The white man kept pushing the Indians west, until there was no place else to push them. So they were killed off, and who wasn't killed off was put on less than desireable land called reservations. The only Indians that made anything of their lives had to give up their culture and make their lives off the reservations. The ones that remained on the reservations are among the most poverty-stricken Americans. The white man certainly knew how to f--k over his red brother, didn't he?
From
[The ones that remained on the reservations are among the most poverty-stricken Americans.]
Except, of course, for the Mashantucket Pequot :-)
And they were destroyed back in the early 18 century along with the Moheicans. So how did they get to me. Can I start a tribe called the Shmendricks. We are getting off the subject Gentlemen and Ladies. Rocker is a Schm*ck, you know it, the world no knows it. Back to trains
Bill Bradley is an excellent choice for the White House.
McCain has alot of likable qualities (besides having been a POW).
But in all around experience in the political arena I'd go with "Dollar Bill".
Another fine example of how the media helps me choose a candidate.
Both Algore and the Bush prodigy garner a huge amount of media space.
And neither of them is the best candidate. But they are the ones the poltical hacks want and they are consequently well funded. And they media lovs them, so I won't vote either. Now a Bradley-McCain elction would be interesting. Statesmen with out the nastyness? Does any one think it possible?
I'm for Bradley also. Health care for everyone, not just senion citizens, civil servants, and union members in big corporations.
Since civil servants already have health insurance, however, my union (having forcible seized my money) has decided to give it to Gore.
Meanwhile, I'm part owner of every corporation in America (through my mutual funds). Rather than pay me all my profits, they've decided to give some of them to Bush.
You two gents see what I mean. Thanks.
No, you're not alone. This Republican will vote for McCain - even though I went to school with one of Bush's brothers, back when their daddy was ambassador to the UN.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahhhh, another McCain supporter. Nice to see more of us. The Board of elections better let McCain get on the ballot for the Republican party primary here in New York, or there will be hell to pay.
Just remember what happened to us the last time we elected a man named George Bush as president. Why make the same mistake twice?
john rockers comments reminds me of SOME of you on sub talk !!
Actually, Bush the elder wasn't too bad - especially considering the alternative. And I'll still vote for Dubya over any of the possible Democratic alternatives.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Bush wins the nomination, I'll do my Republican
duty and vote for him, holding my nose and choking
down the bile throughout the entire ordeal.
He's certainly better than an ex basketball player
and a man who thinks he invented the Internet.
It sure was lost on me - I get annoyed at times because of my early injuries and arthritis that reduce my mobility at times, but on the other hand I remain thankful that they caused Uncle Sam to stamp my papers "4-F".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sprewell seems very much unlike the person he was in Oakland; I mean, he's a media darling here.
OJ...well...ok.
Rae Carruth has not yet been tried, so it's possible, but unlikely, he's innocent.
As for Orlando Brown (Of the Cleveland Browns), he was somewhat justified (and has been suspended indefinately by the NFL), but it was more of an uncontrolled rage, as opposed to John 'off his' Rocker. The last prop player to cause a controversy like this was the Rev. Reggie White (Green Bay).
-Hank
The "idiot" that smacked the ref last Sunday was reacting to several emotions at once. Granted he was wrong but after watching his father go blind and being told that the possability of the same happening to him I can understand his reaction. As it turns out he cannot see out of the eye that was hit with a bb weighted flag that was thrown through a face mask, when anywhere on the field would do.
I also feel sorry for the guy. True, he reacted as a wounded animal but he WAS a wounded animal, and the animal part of his brain got the better of him. I'd cut him a break. He's hurt, and the ref is not.
You ask a lot of football players. They're expected to jacked up with rage for a few seconds, but rational and calm between plays, even when hurt.
The "idiot" that smacked the ref last Sunday was reacting to several emotions at once. Granted he was wrong but after watching his father go blind and being told that the possability of the same happening to him I can understand his reaction. As it turns out he cannot see out of the eye that was hit with a bb weighted flag that was thrown through a face mask, when anywhere on the field would do.
Its still no excuse. Its the same thing as having everything go wrong, coming home and kicking the cat. Hey, the cat didn't do anything. But yet we kick the cat.
From
(Its still no excuse. Its the same thing as having everything go wrong, coming home and kicking the cat. Hey, the cat didn't do anything. But yet we kick the cat.)
I thought that is what cats were for. LOL
Mark
OK, 86 Mr. Brown from the list and add Dennis Rodman & Sandy Alomar to the list. There are enough a-holes in pro sports to go around. Of course, if you disagree, then the next time you hear about a shooting over a school-yard basketball game, blame the kid and don't blame the poor example set by his pro-athlete idol.
Not Sandy Alomar, Roberto Alomar. Or was it Albert Belle who spit on the ump? Anyway, definately NOT Sandy.
-Hank
Not Sandy Alomar, Roberto Alomar. Or was it Albert Belle who spit on the ump? Anyway, definately NOT Sandy.
-Hank
It was Roberto Alomar.
From
It was Roberto, while he played for the permanently mediocre Baltimore Orioles. (By the way, I live in Baltimore.)
John "is off his" Rocker again.
The man should join Marge Schott and be banned from major league baseball. Millions of people look up to these millionaire professional sports idiots as role models; he should be forced to do 100,000 hours of community service as restitution for his comments.
--Mark
Perhaps everyone is taking this guy too seriously. He's an entertainer, and his whole personna is a joke. The guy is a far of professional wrestling, and he knows how to put on a show. Next thing you know he'll be wrestling a stereotyped New Yorker on pay per view.
Rocker has said he's sorry for his comments. He claims that his emotions got the better of his logic. That might make sense if he had made some off-the-cuff comments, for example in an unplanned locker room interview after a game. But his controversial statements came in the course of a magazine interview, no doubt something that had been scheduled in advance and which was conducted at a more leisurely pace with opportunity for reflection. I find his excuse rather tough to swallow.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Rocker's just full of hot air, among other things.
Here we go again & John Rocker need to SHUT HIS MOUTH. I hate that guy.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
The man should join Marge Schott and be banned from major league baseball. Millions of people look up to these millionaire professional sports idiots as role models; he should be forced to do 100,000 hours of community service as restitution for his comments.
--Mark
I like that idea. How about 100,000 hours picking up trash and cleaning up the stadium after every ballgame he plays, regardless of the city, and televising it. Then give that sucker another interview with SI.
From
Are the foreigners really the ones most likely to be the ones that spit at you and throw bottles at you and make fun of yo mama. And besides, has this guy ever been to Beirun anyway.
Who's John Rocker anyway?
Who's John Rocker anyway?
He's the controvertial relief pitcher (closer) on the Atlanta Braves that ssaid a lot of nasty things about New York City and New York Baseball Fans.
From
Rocker s comments were not only about NY, he made comments about Asian Women Drivers in the Left Lane in Atlanta. It even made the local 6.00PM news today in Hawaii. They were also comaring him with Marge Shotz, Reggie White, The old GM of the Dodgers, all who were suspended or austroized by their sports for being raciest. Please excuse my spelling. It always was my worst subject/
12/22/99
What puzzles me about John (off his) Rocker's comments is how does he know that the (7) Train goes to Shea. He probably has never set foot on a New York City subway car. Perhaps some one fed him imformation so he could have proper ammunition to shoot himself in the foot!
I can see it all now, John Rocker boards a (7) train and has the railfan window all to himself. Then at the next station, Salaam Alaah boards with camcorder in hand and the sparks start to fly!!
Bill Newkirk !!!!!!!!!!??????????!!!!!!!!
John rocker should be banned from baseball for all his nasty comments and his inability to keep his mouth shut.
From
The truth hurts, but he should keep his mouth closed i guess.
What's this "truth" you talk about...the fact that people other than middle-class whites can be found on the subway? As I said earlier, ANYBODY is allowed to ride the rails, regardless of race, class, appearance, sexual orientation, or personal status, as long as each person has a valid fare and does not violate the rules.
If public transporation was restricted to "socially acceptible" people, it would go bankrupt pretty doggone quick! And we wouldn't want that to happen to our beloved subway, now would we? WOULD WE?
I didn't think so.
Wanna know what the really sad thing is? Some "conservative" radio talk-show hosts and callers here in Baltimore are actually DEFENDING this guy and further putting down New Yorkers...time for some of y'all to visit wbal.com and tell Ron Smith what both he and John Rocker can do with a ball bat. Like shine it up real good...turn it sideways...etc. etc.
I'm really sorry fellas, I truly love you guys in SubTalk.
Is this the longest thread ever in Subtalk. I remember a Manhattan Bridge one about 14 or 15 months ago that was pretty long. But this one has everything from Working at Home, To Vietnam Views, To Election views, and even a little prejudice.
Amazing
Its not even close to the one on the 63rd St tunnel with its extremely redundant posts. That lasted about a month and I eventually stopped clicking on to it.
Some one passed this site to me of a "RAILNUT" but he has pictures of the Brooklyn Trolley, some good ones too. I believe the person who gave me the URL said he posted to a onelist about LIRR so here is the URL:
http://home.att.net/~railnutternews2/Brooklyn.html
Talking of Brooklyn Trolleys. I just received my 2000 calender from Pentrex this week. It really has some good OLD pictures, all of them Pre WWII. They have a couple of trolleys then went to the Old Race Track in Sheapshead Bay on the Brighton Line
Where can I get one of these Pentrex calenders?
I think they have a web site...
They do, also they have a Toll Free 800 number to order 1800-950-9333 The item number is C0020 NYC Street Cars. They have 2 other trolley Calenders 1-American Streetcars and one Red Cars/Yellow Cars if you are into So Calif Trolleys C0005 all are 12X12 and are $12.95 each plus postage. They also have lots of Videos
I have a couple of Red Cars/Yellow Cars calendars, as well as a video of the final years of streetcar operation. The video includes footage of a P-3 PCC running on the J line (instead of the P line) on the last day of operation.
Not only that, but Good Day New York (Channel 5) spent half a day with us shooting for a segment two weeks ago. It was shown on early yesterday morning's program according to one of my afternoon shift friends.
Hey, how about some helping hands?? Bob & Greg are there most of the weekdays, and I'm there on my off days and on some weekends working on the cars. The shop has good heat now!
Email me if ya wanna get dirty.
janbert@smartec.com
I've been off the board for a while. Where was it first announced about Bronx service changes for the (2) and (5)? Also, two "I don't suppose" questions:
1. That either the (2) or (5) will continue up the middle track to Gun Hill Rd, as the (5) thru expresses did in the 1950's and 60's?
2. That the planned renovation of the New Lots line will include a free transfer to the (L) at Junius St? Why wasn't this ever done, especially since during the early 1960's there was a complete connection between the two stations, although not a free transfer?
Thanks,
Bob Sklar
There's been much material posted, over the years, on the Manhattan Bridge problem(s). I'd like to know:
(1) What exactly is the problem with the bridge, regarding train use?
(2) What exactly has been, is being, and will be done with the southside tracks to overcome this problem?
(3) Why is this taking so long?
(4) Will the exact same process need to be done to the northside tracks?
Any additional comments would be appreciated.
Thanks.
(What is the problem?)
Rust and deterioration in the short run. Metal fatigue in the long run -- heavy subway trains on the outside twist the bridge, causing small cracks that expand.
(What is being done?)
The bridge is being gradually rebuilt. An engineering firm claimed that various structural improvements will reduce twisting, extending the bridge's life for at least 30 years (from 1980).
(Why is this taking so long)
The structural fixes seem to merely redistribute stress, causing more cracks elsewhere, leading to more delays. The city has a shortage of money, leading it to keep postponing repairs. A bad contractor took the money and shut down its bridge repair operation. Also, you need to keep traffic only. Finally, the bridge is rusting away, but repainting it is terrible slow and expensive, because of lead paint rules. The south side is nearly done save for the painting. Previous ETA 2001, latest 2003.
(Will the exact same process be repeated on the northside tracks)
In theory, except that the city, state and MTA have loaded on so much debt in the face of a boom that the Comptroller has said the city's capital program will have to be cut back drastically in 2001. Obviously, a vital link for the people of Brooklyn will be low on the priority list.
(Why does no one care)
Because no on knows, those that do know don't say, and all politicians have an incentive to keep it quiet, because they have patronage pals elsewhere. Transportation is the lowest priority in New York City and State budgets (based on relative spending), and has fallen serverly since 1989.
Monday evening at 11:30 I was waiting on the downtown platform of the Pacific Street station for a local with a whole lot of other people. We waited and waited. Finally at 11:55 an N pulls in on the express platform and the conductor makes a cursory announcement about no local service due to track work. Some people, not all, boarded the train, the rest were left behind because they did not hear the pallid announcement. When the N train, crawling along on the express tracks as usual, finally reached the 36th Station I got off, and crossing over, saw that the track work was to commence at 12:01 am.
Too bad that grinch, NY Transit could not abide by the time posted for its track work. What a difference it would have made to me and the other hundred or so passengers waiting on that platform: holiday shoppers, theater and concert goers who enjoy the fruits of our city only have their return trips marred by the indifference of this MTA agency. I did not reach my destination, 25th Street, until 12:20 pm, an hour after arriving at Pacific Street.
Merry Christmas, NY Transit!
There may have been a worktrain on the local track for the General Order.When a General Order is in effect, there is a timetable that describes when a worktrain enters the work area, leaves the work area,test train( if needed) just to name a few things.However, a worktrain is not required for every G.O. It's just my speculation there was a worktrain on the local track.
Saying that you were stranded at Pacific St. is stretching it a bit! You weren't! There was express service and you rode it! It is unfortunate there was a 25 minute wait for your N train. But this is how a General Order works: if the sign says the G.O. starts at 12:01, this means that all trains must be clear of that track at 12:01. If your train entered Pacific St. at 11:55, chances are that the train would still be in the work area at the time the G.O. is scheduled to start. And if the tracks aren't clear at the scheduled time, the Control Center superintendent will give the dispatcher at DeKalb who was most likely in charge of having that G.O implemented holy hell!
How do Flushing trains connect to the rest of the IRT? Aside from Queensboro Plaza, what are the points where A and B division trains can connect?
[How do Flushing trains connect to the rest of the IRT? Aside from Queensboro Plaza, what are the points where A and B division trains can connect?]
Queensboro Plaza is the only connection point between the Flushing Line and the rest of the system. Excluding equipment deliveries or scrappings, trains are moved on or off the line only when heavy repair work is required, work of the type that's performed only at the Coney Island Shops. Getting from QBP to CI entails some complicated moves including wrong-railing.
There are connections between the A and B divisions in the 207th Street and Concourse yards. There's also an unpowered (no third rail) connection between the 3 and the L near the Linden Shops in Brooklyn.
[There's also an unpowered (no third rail) connection between the 3 and the L near the Linden Shops in Brooklyn.]
That link is in the PAST tense ... When Doug & I walked the Bay Ridge freight line we saw where the connection was cut. It Was off the New Lots Line, into a staging yard, onto the bayridge line, reverse North, then South onto the L.
[Getting from QBP to CI entails some complicated moves including wrong-railing ...]
This I've heard before, but never understood, i.e. once you get the Red Bird onto the N at Queensplaza, why can't you just run it all the way to CI ?
P.S. When I did the CI Tour last year I saw a few Red Birds their.
Mr t__:^)
I know about the link from the Flushing Line to the B division, and to Coney Island. The question is, how does the Flushing Line connect to the rest of the A division. Lets that when 142s come in the TA wants to take some R62s now used on the #1 or #4 and put them on the Flushing line. How do they get there?
The only way I can think of is down from the 207th St shop on the A line to the lower level at 50th Street, to Queens through the 53rd St tunnel to Queens Plaza, through the 60th St tunnel to Manhattan, back through 60th St tunnel to Queensboro and on to the Flushing Line.
There has got to be a better way than this, doesn't there?
A likely scenario of transfering Flushing Line equipment to the mainline IRT without wrong railing might be something like this ...
- Flushing Line to crossover at Queensboro Plaza w/ Astoria Line.
- 60th St tunnel, Broadway Express, Montague Street tunnel, West End Express to Coney Island Yard.
- Coney Island Yard to Ave X / Culver exit, then Culver Express to Jay Street, then local to West 4th Street.
- Via Concourse Express from West 4th St to Concourse Yard and connection to IRT Jerome Ave Line.
From the IRT's Jerome Ave line, additional moves would be required to get equipment to, say, the Pelham Line.
--Mark
To get from the Flushing to the rest of the IRT shouldn't be too hard. The Flushing-BMT connection is on the upper level just east of Queensboro Plaza. It does require a few backup moves though. Once your on Division B look to where the connections are to the IRT. The is one at 207 Street on the Broadway Line to the 207 Street Shops. Another is the Concourse Yard Connection to the Jerome Avenue IRT.
A possible scenario would be Queensboro Plaza UL,relay at 39 Av Middle, relay west of Lexington Av BMT then to Queens Plaza, relay to IND 34 Street-6 Avenue, then north to the Concourse Yard or 207 Street Yard. Due to the construction at Queens Plaza you might to relay someplace else. What you do need is a couple of R-33 four-trippers. The only reason to go all the way to Coney unless maintenance is required would be for hot dogs at Nathans.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For the sake of simplicity, if the every do extend the #7 to the West Side, I hope the TA will insist on a little hook track to connect with the IRT Broadway Line. A connection from the East New York Yard to the A, or better yet the L to the G, would also be useful to cut down on wasted time.
I wish they will connect the L with the #7 up/down from 34th Street.
N Broadway Line
I wish they will connect the L with the #7 up/down from 34th Street.
Whaaaaa ...???
You mean extend the proposed 7 train Javits extension another 20 blocks south to 14th Street? Why?
[You mean extend the proposed 7 train Javits extension another 20 blocks south to 14th Street? Why?]
This is a expansion plan on of the list of a few folks here.
I think it has some merit if you think about it ... both the L & 7 end in Manhattan without going far enough to delivering many customers to their final destination. If the 7 & L were linked it would seem that many more folks could have a one seat trip to work. Both lines are mostly two track. Each have a yard at the end. If the 7 first went to the Javits Center, then it would be logical to continue it downtown via 9th or 10 Ave then turn back East to meet the L.
Mr t__:^)
[You mean extend the proposed 7 train Javits extension another 20 blocks south to 14th Street? Why?] ... both the L & 7 end in Manhattan without going far enough to delivering many customers to their final destination. If the 7 & L were linked it would seem that many more folks could have a one seat trip to work. Both lines are mostly two track. Each have a yard at the end. If the 7 first went to the Javits Center, then it would be logical to continue it downtown via 9th or 10 Ave then turn back East to meet the L.
Hmmmmmm. But what work areas are you trying to reach? Despite recent gentrification of meatpacking district/West Chelsea and soon, far West 40s, there aren't that many people who work OR live west of, say, 9th Ave. Lots of empty lots, low-density manufacturing, car shops, etc.
My personal preference would be to route the 7 onto the High Line, though I think resuscitating any kind of elevated service in Manhattan is probably impossible. But it's an existing ROW and heads down to 14th Street. Only problem is how to do a transfer from the "new 7" terminus at the 14th Street elevated station (W of 9th Ave) to the westernmost end of the underground L train (W of 8th).
Anyone know how far west the "NYCTA Training" facility on the L line extends? I don't have my track map book with me. Anyone got suggestions on this one?
All of THAT said, though ... I'd *MUCH* rather extend the 7 train past Javits to the Meadowlands -- or the NJT Secaucus Transfer. Yeah, new tunnel, huge expense, etc. But if the 7 train could reach a transit hub (Secaucus) and/or parking (proposed NJT station in Meadowlands) then you could let folks from Flushing connect to NJ destinations with one transfer, give NJ riders multiple entry points to Manhattan (midtown/GCT, midtown/Penn, PATH) and perhaps even free up some slots at Penn which are hugely needed. And it would mean at least *some* Javits visitors could stay in NJ and keep their cars out there rather than using bridges/tunnels.
Extending the 7 to Secaucus Transfer isn't a bad idea in and of itself. The main thing I dread is seeing some redundant, state-subsidized office park going up on piles in the middle of the marshes there, like Battery Park City.
As for the L, I'd turn it up 10th Avenue and run it to 72nd street. Much of the development along that stretch of the West Side is pretty ill-considered, but it's there and we may as well get used to it. Extending the L isn't ideal, but would take the pressure off of the Broadway IRT - at least for commuters heading downtown.
-Daniel Casey
They won't even build the Second Av subway, do you think they'd ever build another west side line???
Extending the 7 to Secaucus Transfer isn't a bad idea in and of itself. The main thing I dread is seeing some redundant, state-subsidized office park going up on piles in the middle of the marshes there, like Battery Park City.
Not for office development, but for PARKING -- the stadiums out there, which are mostly used evenings or weekends, have massive parking lots that would be ideal for commuters. The tunnels and bridges, and then parking in Manhattan, are more of a bottleneck than NJ road capacity. Let NJ commuters drive to the Meadowlands, park, and hop on a subway.
As for the L, I'd turn it up 10th Avenue and run it to 72nd Street. Much of the development along that stretch of the West Side is pretty ill-considered, but it's there and we may as well get used to it. Extending the L isn't ideal, but would take the pressure off of the Broadway IRT - at least for commuters heading downtown.
Interesting idea. Any thoughts on use of the High Line? Obviously Jeff Rosen is right -- this won't get built in our lifetime (hence the "FANTASY" in the subject line). But if it WERE possible, how would you do it? Since there's a ROW there, it seems like you could use it.
AND, the great benefit to this would be that it would offer some subway service to Riverside West residents so they won't ALL crowd into the woefully-over-capacity 72nd Street IRT station.
Larry Littlefield: Thoughts from our resident urban planner?
My personal L & 7 fantasy involves knocking out the 42/8 lower level and replacing it with a four-track Ninth Av. station under 41 St., connecting to the Port Authority: L trains would terminate here (either on the center tracks or at a lower level, depending on space constraints), then head west (admittedly the long way round for B'klyn passengers, but what can you do), turning under 11th Av. for the Javits Center, 23 St, then under the West Side Highway to 14th & 10th before joining the current route at 8th Av. (I suppose the High Line might be useful, but it seems like it would only save about ten blocks of subway construction for the sake of installing a permanent nuisance.)
Meanwhile, the 7 turns north under 10th Avenue, calling at 50 St., 57 St., and 72 St.-Broadway before turning toward New Jersey: West New York, North Bergen (NJT & Hudson-Bergen LR), a long ride over the swamp to Secaucus, and then to the Meadowlands.
Would anybody but me have any interest in linking the Upper West Side to New Jersey? Doubt it, but this seems like a way to kill the most birds with the fewest stones.
"Meanwhile, the 7 turns north under 10th Avenue, calling at 50 St., 57 St., and 72 St.-Broadway before turning toward New Jersey: West New York, North Bergen (NJT & Hudson-Bergen LR), a long ride over the swamp to Secaucus, and then to the Meadowlands. Would anybody but me have any interest in linking the Upper West Side to New Jersey? Doubt it, but this seems like a way to kill the most birds with the fewest
stones."
I will like to see another path train route created. It will serve most of the towns east of the hudson like "west NY" "Hackensack", and another branch to patterson. This line will also have connections to the original path train route to Newark. The manhattan terminal could be the eastside somewhere around fifth Avenue and 50th Street. Or, as far as Lexinton Avenue.
N Broadway Line
Battery Park City wasn't built on a marsh, it was built IN THE RIVER.
"As for the L, I'd turn it up 10th Avenue and run it to 72nd street. Much of the development along that stretch of the West Side is pretty ill-considered, but it's there and we may as well get used to it. Extending the L isn't ideal, but would take the pressure off of the Broadway IRT - at least for commuters heading downtown."
Maybe... Although, I've seen less expensive ideas earlier. For instance, the TA needs to install two entrances north and south of the 72nd Street station. Therefore, passengers can exit the station more easily.
Moreover, passengers can benefit even more if they (TA) were to provide more rapid service on those lines (7th Avenue 1,2,3,9) that serve the upper westside.
N Broadway Line
The easiest way to do this would be to use the high line. It has laid dormant too long.I always thought if not a subway connecor between the 7 and L, then some sort of light rail could hook up to it at Ganesvort. It could perhaps follow the West Side highway from the WTC, and then proceed over a non congested exclusive ROW to Javits and perhaps via tunnel to Penn, or alongwside the Amtrack ROW to Upper West Side?
[The easiest way to do this would be to use the high line. It has laid dormant too long.I always thought if not a subway connecor between the 7 and L, then some sort of light rail could hook up to it at Ganesvort. It could perhaps follow the West Side highway from the WTC, and then proceed over a non congested exclusive ROW to Javits and perhaps via tunnel to Penn, or alongwside the Amtrack ROW to Upper West Side?]
Absolutely. With or without the el, it would be a cheap and effective line, offering direct NJT/LIRR/Metro North and maybe Amtrak service to the downtown business district, while providing local service to the underserved lower Manhattan and Midtown areas of the West Side and taking some of the load off the 7th Avenue IRT.
The same thing could be done on the East Side, taking the MN tracks down from GCT and maybe even linking up in lower Manhattan. It would be harder to do, though, given that the MN tracks have been "painted in" to GCT by the subway, which blocks their intended exit point.
Why stop at Secaucus or the Meadowlands?? Lets make the #7 the first transcontinental subway?? (But make sure it goes through John Rocker's neighborhood)
"Why stop at Secaucus or the Meadowlands?? Lets make the #7 the first transcontinental subway?? (But make sure it goes through John Rocker's neighborhood)"
Too expensive.
The best southern terminal for the #7 line will be javitz center, unless the TA says "The Hell With It!" Let's extend it to the world trade center, or battery park city. Then, express service could be provided from WTC ("BPC") to 42nd time square. However, that is just a drrreeeeaaaammmmm.
N Broadway Line
[But what work areas are you trying to reach? ... there aren't that many people who work OR live west of, say, 9th Ave. (Westside in 30s/40s) Lots of empty lots, low-density manufacturing, car shops, etc.]
I was thinking more of "L" folks who want to get to 42 St or Grand Central area, OR "7" folks who want to get downtown, i.e. there would be more space in trains at 14th then trying to jam into them at 42nd.
The new service to Westside & Javits would be a bonus. Also I see it easier to convert L to IRT standards versus some of the other plans.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think this can be done. NJ would want some money because the train would be in NJ. Besides, I don't think the MTA would use so much money on 1 project.
If there is a connection to the Meadowlands, it would be a bus.
"You mean extend the proposed 7 train Javits extension another 20 blocks south to 14th Street? Why?"
Just what I said before. Extend the #7 (from the north) and L (from the south) to Javitz Center. In addition, a track yard should be built for both #7 and L trains.
7 Broadway Line
Hey fellas! Did you know there was a crossover outside the 60th street tunnel? Or did we forget?
Mr TMC: We did not forget but the 11 Street Connection was not opened until December 1,1955. We were speaking of the time period between that time and the closing of the Second Avenue El on June 13,1942.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What did the IRT do before unification to get trains to the 7 line?
Until 1942, the 7 was connected to the rest of the IRT system via the Second Ave. el spur across the Queensborough Bridge.
my guess is the flushing trains will go via the BMT lines to Coney Island, up though the D train line to the Concourse yard and up the EL structure to Jerome Avenue. i could be wrong it might be another way
Until 1942, the 7 was connected to the rest of the IRT system via the Second Ave. el spur across the Queensborough Bridge.
That was OK for wooden El cars, but what about steel subway cars?
From
It seems that the Second Av El was the only line capable of handling the steel subway cars. If I recall correctly, based on some reading I did, the H and M Cars were wired at 129th St Shop as they had no shops during their early years as a company, so I would have to believe some testing was done on that line. The Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, and others could most likely travel, but probably lite, that is with no passengers and short consists, say 3 steels versus 5 wooden cars. After 1916, equipment could travel down the middle track since it was the strongest part of the el during the time. The el received an additional track during the Dual Contracts Era. As always, I'll leave it to Redbird and others to interpret history properly, as these are my own thoughts.
-Stef
It seems that the Second Av El was the only line capable of handling the steel subway cars. If I recall correctly, based on some reading I did, the H and M Cars were wired at 129th St Shop as they had no shops during their early years as a company, so I would have to believe some testing was done on that line. The Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, and others could most likely travel, but probably lite, that is with no passengers and short consists, say 3 steels versus 5 wooden cars. After 1916, equipment could travel down the middle track since it was the strongest part of the el during the time. The el received an additional track during the Dual Contracts Era. As always, I'll leave it to Redbird and others to interpret history properly, as these are my own thoughts.
-Stef
That's very interesting about the Second Ave. El. I had no idea. I'll bet they could have reinforced the El to handle steel cars in revenue service. Could you imagine R-62's on the 2nd Ave. El? Its just dirty politics to get rid of a good sound structure like that. Now, they won't even replace it. From
The Second Avenue El was used to transfer el as well as subway cars. The el was strong enough to support pre-war IRT subway cars in non revenue service. The Suburban Railway Line in the Bronx was also able to accomadate them. The interesting part come in the period from 1942 to the 1950's when there was no connection from the BMT to the IND. I believe what was done in those days was to car float the equiptment from Oak Point to the LIRR.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's possible, but I'd imagine that cars could have been transferred by rail (without a carfloat) from 180th St at the old NYW & B Connection to the Brooklyn Piers via the Hell Gate Bridge, Bay Ridge Lines, and to Coney Island via the South Brooklyn Railway. I can recall seeing a picture of a Whitcomb Engine pulling pulling a new pair of IRT R12s/14s into Coney Island Yard. The severing of the Flushing Line from the rest of the IRT caused the line's cars to be serviced down at Coney Island. Chances are the cars travelled down to that yard before heading up to Flushing.
Regards,
Stef
On a 10/27/74 fan trip, we started with Low V's at GCT shuttle, ran around City Hall loop and went up Lex to Dyre and then 238 St. yard. There we switched to R-36's, ran down to 138th/Concourse center track, relayed up to Jerome yard, onto the IND.
We followed the route of the D, switched to local track at West 4th, went through the K cutoff into Essex St., relayed and went down Nassau Street into the Montague Tunnel (don't recall if we had to go all the way to Court St.), then relayed back up Broadway to Queensboro Plaza and through the switch onto the Flushing line. The trip ended at 111th St., so the R-36 could go into the yard.
Why would they have removed that connection [3 to L]?
I had been thinking that Linden Yard really was the logical place for deliveries of new cars (R-142 and R-143), since there was access from the mainline rail system to make the delivery, and access to both A and B division trackage to put the cars onto (the 143's could go right to their destination, the L line - the 142's could go up either IRT mainline to 180th St.).
Also, what was the reason (if there was one) for keeping that connection without third rail?
[Also, what was the reason (if there was one) for keeping that connection without third rail? ]
The Linden yard is obviously a staging area for rails, ties, etc. therefore 3rd rail may have presented more of a hazard then a benifit.
To repeat some of my comments ... to get to the L from the IRT New Lots line you have to come onto the Bayridge freight line of the LIRR, so there was never 3rd rail for such a move.
P.S. Let me correct myself ... there was two switches between the L and the IRT. The above is about the first. The second, just North of it is powered & still active. It branches off & goes up a ramp which ends up in the Linden yard. To get to the IRT you would stop the train part way on the ramp, then reverse the train. You would enter the IRT on the center track at Junius.
(A light went off in my head & thankfully my track map was handy to confirm)
Mr t__:^)
Actually, it's pretty easy. When they need to move a #7 train to Coney Island, they call on Billy. He's the huge kid who really runs the subway, and he comes over to the #7 line, and picks the train up, and carries it over to another track, and puts it down there.
He's sometimes not around (visting grandma in california and throwing temper tantrums, that's why they have those earthquakes over there), so the MTA got his dad to install a switch between the #7 and the N at Queensboro plaza. That's the only connection point in the system.
(Sorry guys, I couldn't resist :)
Anyone want to hazard as a guess as to which one that might be before clicking on this link to rapidtransit.net?
Also, Bob Diamond's Grade Crossing Commission photos have been very popular, and I believe we may have some more in the near future.
I'll take a guess, either Dyckman Street on the 1/9 or the "side" entrance (from Bennet Avenue) to 190 Street on the A. Otherwise something from the Dyre Ave. line? (Okay, so I took more than one guess).
Chuck
Does anybody know the list of the stations on the old steam Brighton line from Bedford Junction to the Brighton Hotel?
It depends on the era.
In 1890, there were regular stations at Bedford (Atlantic Avenue near Franklin Ave.), Prospect Park (aka Willink), South Midwood (Newkirk Ave.), South Greenfield (later known as Elm Ave., at the same location, but not the same thing as Ave. M), Kings Highway, Sheepshead Bay and Hotel Brighton.
A couple of comments on the above. Note no station at Fiske Terrace/Ave. H. This is in response to those who think Ave. H was one of the original station, accounting for the unusual station house.
Also there does not seem to have been a regular stop (maybe a flag stop?) at Church Ave., the heart of Flatbush and the end of the original open cut.
Finally, Newkirk Ave. was known as South Midwood. This seems to be a holdover from the days when Flatbush and Midwood were more or less synonymous. By the time I was growing up in the '50s, Flatbush was the area more or less north of Foster Avenue, and Midwood south of that.
I looked at the BGCEC maps and noticed that some Brooklyn Streets were built differently than mapped:
Clarendon Road (Avenue C) does not continue east of Ralph Avenue
Foster Avenue (Avenue E) continues on a diagonal (in relation to those streets) west of Ralph, it also probably is further north than planned, as it bends southward before Remsen.
Avenue D does not go through what is now the Terminal Market to Ralph Avenue.
Defy: from just a little research I've done on old Brooklyn, I have learned that most streets --or more aptly, roads -- east of Remsen and South of Kings Highway were either dirt roads are did not exist as such until the late 1800's. I have seen some 1860's street maps, and only the original Town of Brooklyn (northern half of the borough) was laid out in recognizable street blocks.
More on this in a later post (or perhaps at rapidtransit.com).
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Defy: from just a little research I've done on old Brooklyn, I have learned that most streets --or more
aptly, roads -- east of Remsen and South of Kings Highway were either dirt roads are did not exist as
such until the late 1800's. I have seen some 1860's street maps, and only the original Town of
Brooklyn (northern half of the borough) was laid out in recognizable street blocks. <<<
In South Brooklyn, streets that...um...defy the grid pattern are clues to the former makeup of the borough. These are the original dirt roads that predated the urbanization of the neighborhood.
Some examples are...
--Hubbard Place between E 40th and Kings Highway
--Amersfort Place, a remnant of Old Flatbush Road before it was straightened, more or less, into Flatbush Avenue
--Mill Lane, in two separate pieces in Flatlands. There are also a Mill Lane and Old Mill Road elsewhere in Brooklyn, though the mills vanished centuries ago.
--The streets at angles in Midwood, like Locust, Chestnut, Bay, Elm and Cedar, are remnants of an old settlement called South Greenfield, which had a stop on the old LIRR Manhattan Beach branch
--Gravesend Neck and Sheepshead Bay Roads are very old
--The square pattern of Village Rds. N, S and E with Van Sicklen Street can be traced back to the early 1600s when Lady Moody ran the place
Maps are history and history is written in large part in maps.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't believe I guessed right before clicking the link! Of course, you people have know way to prove that.
(Paul)
Sometimes I get the feeling that you have a bit of nostalgia for "suburban" Brooklyn. On the good side, a lot of these developers wiped out the trees. Looking at old pictures, if you like street trees, the streets with houses are more attractive now than when they were built.
While looking out a window on third ave. a flatbed truck went by with several stator components of what is likely a rotary convertor from the 57th st sub-station. I recognized the green paint that I`d seen when peering in on them in the past.
Not exactly earth-shattering news but still sad to see more of the old system going.
You should have followed the truck to get a sample.
Well only problem was I viewed this moving truck from a very stationary apartment. Besides,with 11 jukeboxes six sound systems,and tons of other stuff I`d be hard pressed to find room for any of these large looking and heavy parts. Nice thought tho.
On MARTA they have a train with Santa Claus. On NYCT they need all the conductors and motormen dressed like Santa Claus. This is a novel idea. What do you think?
I think Hillary would want to be dressed as Santa. Or maybe she views herself more like Robin Hood. She could borrow some Merry Men from Bill.
However, here's a picture of Santa as a T/O.
where'd ya get that from??
Assuming you mean the Santa card rather than Hillary, it's from the BMT Monthly with more than a little help from Photoshop.
The sharp-eyed historian types will note that the Triplex front shows the original front-end arrangement of the four experimental Triplexes (6000-6003) before they were modified to conform with the production fleet.
One unique feature these experimentals had (which they kept to the end) were roller bearing trucks. When you rode them you could hear and feel the difference.
Too bad none of those four units were saved. One other difference in the picture is that there is no route number showing, only "Toyland Special".
AWWww, I don't know Dave. Last year I went in to the A job I had dressed in full Santa regalia. I was promptly told to remove it or face suspension. I put my conductor's badge on the santa hat and asked if I could wear that. NO was the answer. I wore it after I left the terminal anyway and still reccieved some passenger good cheer. Careful to observe for any other Scrooges. And you wonder why this organization engenders such ill will toward man and no peace below the earth.
Scrooge runs the TA.
So this year come dressed as Scrooge.
Come dressed as scrooge? That is easy enough. I know of a place in the Village that specializes in the Joe Hoffman Holloween mask.
Eric--- I think the MTA's refusal to let conductors or train operators dress as Santa Claus has several reasons. If a crew member were dressed as Santa and was abusive to a customer, it would be impossible to seek retribution against the worker since they would all look alike. Secondly, conductors dressed as Santa might find it hard to close doors in customer's faces, and this might have impact on on time performance. Thirdly, it might be dangerous for the conductor, as some customers might try pulling their beards as they stuck their head out the window while entering and leaving the station.
As long as I am talking about Santa, I also heard on my wireless crystal set last night, that for all railfans seeking visions of the R 142's, a special consist of 5 cars will be pulled by Santa and the reindeer and should be visible in the Northeastern sky heading south tomorrow night around 2115, as the cars are hauled from the 239th St Yards to the scrap yard in New Jersey.
This morning I went down to buy some stamps at the MIT Branch of the Post Office, here in Cambridge, MA. The postal clerk was dressed as Santa. Having just read the earlier part of this thread, I asked him if there was any regulation against him wearing the costume. All he said was, "I don't know; I'm just filling in today before my regular night job tomorrow night. When you only work one night a year, you have to pick up some part-time work, and I'm well-trained in package handling." Pretty clever response.
[Back on topic] You have to keep your sense of humor! If a T/O- or C/R-dressed as Santa evokes just one smile from a passenger, I think it would be worth it.
Transit & Weather Together coming up this weekend...
You have to keep your sense of humor! If a T/O- or C/R-dressed as Santa evokes just one smile from a passenger, I think it would be worth it.
Very true! And a smile spreads ro epidemic proportions in no time!
From
I don't know about the TA but in the NYPD a beard is prohibited without medical permission from the Police Surgeon. (At least when in uniform, plain clothes cops can have a beard)
Which train on MARTA are you talking about?
Sounds like a Constitutional problem waiting to happen. On the one had, you have the separation of church and state. The TA, as a publicly-funded agency, falls into this catagory. On the other hand, you've got the right to free speech. IIRC, it has been proven in several cases that your right to free speech can be limited by your employers concerns, in this case being the aforementioned separation.
-Hank (I Am Not A Lawyer, but other people here are.)
I've never heard of Santa Claus being a religious figure. So much of how Christmas is celebrated is so far from the real meaning of the holiday, and is completely secular. Jesus was born in a tropical area, nobody wore any red (and warm) clothing, there was no snow, there were no evergreen trees. If The Transit Professional wearing a Santa suit violates the church/state separation rule, so does closing the Post Office on Christmas.
I've never heard of Santa Claus being a religious figure. So much of how Christmas is celebrated is so far from the real meaning of the holiday, and is completely secular. Jesus was born in a tropical area, nobody wore any red (and warm) clothing, there was no snow, there were no evergreen trees. If The Transit Professional wearing a Santa suit violates the church/state separation rule, so does closing the Post Office on Christmas.
The Holy Land is not a tropical area. It is Medeterranean, but not tropical. I don't know of any tropical area that has desert. Also, don't let the palm trees fool you. It does snow in the Holy Land (in the mountains). As for evergreen trees, I can't answer that one. All I can say about Christmas Trees, is that they are of pagan origin. What is also of pagan origin is celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25. Bible scholars and theologians believe that Jesus was born around the time of the Jewish High Holy Days (September or October). As for Santa Claus being a religious figure, that is as much the truth as the Easter Bunny being a religious figure. Neither have anything to do with Christianity. Both have pagan origins and were adopted by Christians for the childrens' sake. But Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Easter Eggs have nothing whatsoever to do with the real meaning of Christmas and Easter.
From
I can remember Jerusalem getting 6 inches of snow a couple of years ago
"It is Medeterranean, but not tropical."
I should normally know the difference, but I didn't think about it first.
Also, even though mountains (like one I cannot recall the name of) have snow, Bethlehem is not on a mountain.
Also, even though mountains (like one I cannot recall the name of) have snow, Bethlehem is not on a mountain.
I read someone's post that mentioned that Jerusalem got 6" of snow. Bethlehem is not far from Jerusalem.
From
I remember the Jerusalem snow thing. But it's rare, there was no snow at the time Jesus was born.
I remember the Jerusalem snow thing. But it's rare, there was no snow at the time Jesus was born.
How do you know that? Did you look it up in the archives of Newsradio 88?
From
It's unlikely.
Regardless of what, the theme of Christmas has nothing to do with it's religious aspect. During Christianity's expansion late in the Roman Empire, the story obviously stole from the pagans to appeal to the masses. Of course, stole is a bad word, as nothing was actually created anew. The trees, lights, Santa are all more modern developments.
Regardless of what, the theme of Christmas has nothing to do with it's religious aspect. During Christianity's expansion late in the Roman Empire, the story obviously stole from the pagans to appeal to the masses. Of course, stole is a bad word, as nothing was actually created anew. The trees, lights, Santa are all more modern developments.
Christmas trees date back to pagan times. they are not modern. Before electric lights, people put candles on Christmas trees. I don't know exactly when Santa Claus was thought up, but I know it was before the 20th Century. I don't remember which century it was. As for Christianity's expansion and a story that was stolen from the pagans, do you want to elaborate on that? I'm not exactly clear on what story you're saying was stolen.
From
Christmas trees were introduced to the US in 1841 (or was it 1840) by a man living in Williamsburg, Virginia. He had visited Germany the prior year and observed the custom there. Because of the cost of for candles, such an extravagance was limited to the wealthy, and because of the danger of fire was only practiced outdoors, both in Germany and at first in the US. It wasn't until the 1930s and the advent of more modern lighting techniques that illuminated Christmas trees became accessible to the "common man". (Decorated trees, without the lights, appeared in some middle-class homes shortly after the turn of the century. Trees with secular decorations were primarily found in middle- and upper-class homes of non-Germanic ancestry, while simpler trees decorated with religious symbols were typically found in homes of pious middle-class families of Germanic origin, especially in homes of families who had left more spartan sects [such as the Mennonites] and embraced the modern world but whose religious beliefs were still central to their lives.)
It has been contended that Christmas trees are an extension of Druid worship of trees. I'm not sure there is a historic continum between the two, but it's possible. As for Santa Claus, his origins are also shrouded in mystery. Some claim him as a saint from the Middle Ages, others link him to pagan myths and legends (his elves are the faeries of the forests and fields). His modern-day trappings as a commercial creature are simply the latest evolution in his history.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Easter eggs are a symbol of rebirth, that is what they have to do with Easter. OTOH Santa Claus or St. Nicholas are from German/Nordic origin but I'm not sure a to the relation to Christmas.
Easter eggs are a symbol of rebirth, that is what they have to do with Easter. OTOH Santa Claus or St. Nicholas are from German/Nordic origin but I'm not sure a to the relation to Christmas.
But the "rebirth" origin of the Easter eggs still had its roots in paganism. Fact is, Easter is even a pagan word. Many Christians won't even use the term Easter. They refer to the Day as Resurrection Day.
From
NYCT runs a very "stuffed shirt" military like organization. That is the way it is. Christmas is just another day on the railroad! Dressing in Santa garb is considered being out of uniform. If the wrong supervisor sees you out of uniform, he can take you out of service and you will have to go downtown and see "The Man." I heard a few years ago of a train operator on the N line hanging some kind of Christmas decoration across the front safety chains. A certain TSS (the same one who supposedly made up the T/O promotion exam which most people failed) saw it and blew his stack! I also remember a certain station agent, a good many years ago (before this was their title), was ordered by her supervisor to take down the decorations in her booth. But that made the papers, it embarassed the TA, and they backed off.
I agree. I'm afraid to say Merry Christmas or other holiday of fear of being politically incorrect. When the last passenger wished me a Merry Christmas, I replied "Happy holidays to you too" and wrapped my controller.
You mean T.S.S. STEVE COOPER. The TA's biggest 穧ååµ›§µ¼³!
I have spotted six Kawasaki built R-142s at the plant in Yonkers, New York from a Hudson Line train at 2:53 P.M. today Wednesday December 22. The car numbers were 7211,7212,7213,7215 & 7219 & 7220.
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone & FAX (914) 478-3454
You are looking at the wrong car class. They are the R142A's.
Mr. Train Control:
Sorry for the error in referring to the R-142As as R-142s.
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone & FAX (914) 478-3454
7216 is probably at 239th St yard right now. I saw her being prepped for loading onto a flatbed truck this past Sunday night.
--Mark
How does that R142a look? It must a copy of the R62's.
Actually, from the outside, it looks remarkably like an R110A.
From the side, it looked quite similar to an R-62, except the sides were completely smooth. No "beltline" that both the R-62 and R-68 seem to share. Also, there's a red stripe on the side of the A car, starting from he full width cab, that fades from redbird red to silver. I heard this is supposed to symbolize the passing of the Redbirds, though I do not know this for a fact.
I sent Dave about a dozen pix of the R-142a's; as soon as he posts them, I'm sure he'll let us know.
--Mark
Mark S. Feinman:
I did notice the red trim on the R-142As when I had spotted them at the Yonkers plant yesterday Wednesday December 22, 1999.
Jeff Alterman
156 Villard Avenue
Hastings-on-Hudson, New York 10706-1217
Phone and FAX (914) 478-3454
I was doing some research for my GCT page and found this:
In the lower right, you'll notice an elevated terminal.
I didn't know that els ran on 42nd Street. Was that line coming from the 3rd Avenue El?
The picture was taken in 1919.
Please help!
This was 42nd Street spur of the 3rd Avenue El. There was a trailing point switch on the downtown local track of the 3rd Avenue El which connected to the shuttle. No thru service to the 3rd Avenue El. the spur disappeared in the 1920's. Nice picture.
Wow, that's a pretty rare picture. Take a look at our 1920 El Track Map and you can see how that line is connected into the 3rd Ave. El.
-Dave
This was a spur from the 3 Avenue El that ran over to the then Grand Central Depot. It opened on August 26,1878 and was the northern terminus of the line for about a month,on September 16,1878 the el was extended to 67 Street. The line ran shuttle service between Grand Central and 42 Street-3 Avenue. It closed on December 6,1923.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Isn't this the line where the first tests took place of trains powered by electric traction, in the early 1890's?
My understanding (as noted in The Tracks of New York, Number 3), was that the Second Ave. el was used for electric train testing. Makes more sense. Rather tough to test a full length train on a short shuttle that normally saw two car trains.
Also, should note that a similar, short elevated shuttle ran along 34th St. east from Third Ave., stopping at Second Ave (and its elevated), terminating at the East River LIRR ferry slips. This spur was discontinued and demolished in 1930.
Anybody up for a quickie last tour of the century next week? I'm looking for someone to ride with next week...anyday cept Fri....For those of us who haven't done the new Franklin, etc etc....
Will the two different train sets (142 and 142A) have to be tested independently? I believe that they are supposed to be able to MU (whatever that means). Also for the people who have seen these mystery cars, do they look anything like the picture on the bombardier site? From what i've seen from the pictures on this site they dont look so impressive. The sides are completely flat and the cars resemble a stainless steel box with windows.
PS. what doe SMEE stand for?
The R142 contract was so big with over 1000 cars. Bombardier was contracted for 700+ cars and Kawasaki was contracted for 300+ cars. The latter is called the R142A's to other Subtalkers errors and is identical to the R142's.
SMEE stands for Semi-Motor Electric Emergency. It started with R10's.
No, the SMEE is Self lapping Manual Electric Emergency. The Smee classification is derived at the ME42 valve and up.
No, the SMEE is Self lapping Manual Electric Emergency. The Smee classification is derived at from ME42 valve and up.
No, the SMEE is Self lapping Manual Electric Emergency. The Smee classification is derived from ME42 valve and up.
S in SMEE is for Straight Air.
S in SMEE is for Straight Air.
That's what I was told a long time ago. Doesn't SMEE stand for Straight Air
Motor
Electric
Emergency
?
From
Also for the people who have seen these mystery cars, do they look anything like the picture on the bombardier site? From what i've seen from the pictures on this site they dont look so impressive. The sides are completely flat and the cars resemble a stainless steel box with windows.
One thing to keep in mind is that there is a big difference between the cab end of an "A" car, and any other car end. I believe the pictures posted so far are of a trailer, or "B" car, which you would never see in service from the end anyway.
I'm anxious to see the photos of an "A" car.
SMEE Stands for:
S=Straight Air
M=Mechanical
E=Electric
E=Emergency
S=Straight Air
M=Mechanical
E=Electric
E=Emergency
Thanks for the info.
From
Whoopsy, Steve, the "M" does not stand for "Mechanical"!
Here's how the WABCO scheme works for traction brake schedules.
First letter: A for automatic (i.e. a brake pipe with reduction)
or S for straight-air (i.e. the train pipe is proportional
to braking call)
Second Letter: M for MOTOR, as in the equipment found on an electric
MU motor car, specifically it includes a compressor and a brake
stand, sometimes a feed valve. T is for TRAILER.
Third Letter: Here's where it gets tricky. On the "A" schedules,
the third letter is the type of triple valve (L, M, R, S, U)
For the "S" series, the E here means that there is an additional
emergency train pipe which acts as a fail-safe (i.e. the Brake
Pipe). Schedule SME was a very popular trolley car system for
hooking up a second car as a trailer.
Fourth Letter: The E stands for Electric Brake, i.e. there is
a set of train line wires which accelerates the transmission
of the brake request by sending it electrically rather than
pneumatically.
In school car they say "straight air motor electric emergency"
like some mantra but although most motormen can repeat that
phrase its derivation is lost. I contend that it is more
correctly ".....emergency electric-brake" because if you leave of
the last E you get SME which as I explained is a real system
of Straight Air, Motor Car, +Emergency
For x-reference, R1-9s, Lo-Vs, ABs and Ds had AMUE braking.
Technically the Lo-V blind trailers were ATUE.
We were told in school car that the SMEE applies to the brake schedule only. S for Self lapping, M for Manual backup in loss of B2, the EE for Electric Emergency. That was from a school car TSS that had over twenty years on the job over twelve years ago.
SMEE is a brake schedule code. The M for motor means it
is the schedule of equipment to be provided with a motor
(control) car. That includes a compressor, brake valve, pilot
valve. I don't know of any examples of STEE.....Maybe one of
the Boston experts can help out?
The TSS who told you Self-lapping Manual Electric-Emergency
either made it up or was repeating misinformation. There is
a lot of jargon and slang used on a railway and as the derivation
of most of it gets lost over time, people make things up that
sound plausible.
See my previous post about traction brake codes in general.
Back in the seventies, I was told that SMEE stands for
Straight Air
Motor
Electric
Emergency
Am I correct, or not?
From
How about....STRAIGHT AIR-MOTOR CAR EMERGENCY ELECTRIC?
Are you asking us to vote on which one we like the best?
Good idea! Why not?
I don't know about WABCO but the RCI manual gives the same answer that I did.
Well, we have the RCI manual with "Mechanical" and RTO (according
to Harry) as "Manual". Terminology tends to get garbled over
time, especially when it is not essential in and of itself.
What did people call, e.g., car 101? An "R-9".
It doesn't matter to the TA what Westinghouse Air Brake Co (now
WABTEC!) felt SMEE stood for when they designed it. How often
has knowing the expansion of that acronym come up in your TA
career? Probably only in training, or breaking in new guys.
However, if you consider what SMEE means in the larger world of
WABCO brake schedule codes, as I've detailed earlier in the thread,
then you can place into perspective the relationship of SMEE with
other braking schedules such as AMRE, AML, ATL, AMUE and ATUE.
AB ABD ABDW ABDWX? Let's add to the confusion by throwing in freight car control valves as well.
Yeah, I didn't want to "go there" :) I used to remember
what the B in ABD meant.
Ok, Erik, we haven't heard your interpretation...what does SMEE
stand for?
Who else used SMEE? I can think of a bunch of Boston cars. I'm
pretty sure the K class cars of H&M/PATH had SMEE, as well as
the Almond Joys. Can we think of any examples of SMEE equipped
cars which were blind trailers?
SMEE stands for Self-Lapping Mechanical/Electrical Equipment. Pretty much anything that was built between 1948 and 1970 is likely to be SMEE-equipped.
NYCT: R10, R12, R14, R15, R16, R17, R21, R22, R26, R27/30/30A, R28, R29, R32, R33, R33WF, R34 (GOH of R11), R36, R38, R40, R40M, R42
PATH: Class K/MP-51
Philadelphia: PA-3
I am not sure if NYCT's R44 and R46 fleets have the SMEE braking schedule. Erik can clarify this, since he works with that equipment.
Wayne
The R-62 and R-68 have them.
We haven't had actual SMEE equipment since I believe the R-36. The R-38's introduced RT 2 or some other such nonsense. PA 1 and up as well.They're all compatible however.
Since overhaul only the R-36 Wh have true SMEE, although modified from it's orginal design. The GE's have a load sensor rather than the old variable load valve. Neither has an inshot valve anymore, and the J relay is new and "improved"
R-44 and 46 use a straight air pipe and function in essentially the same way, but they could not strictly speaking be called SMEE. An R-46 with hoses and coupler adapter could probably be M.U.'ed with an R-32 if you tried.
I coupled an R-10 to some R-9's once and got them to function in a sort. I coupled an R-16 to a P wire R-46 and tried that. I haven't had a chance to do NYAB 46 with SMEE yet though. Give me a chance I will sooner or later.
SMEE? I always figured it was Straight air, Multiple unit Electric, Emergency.
AMUE was Automatic Multiple Unit Electric?
Those were guesses I made years back. Like Jeff said it's not really relevant when your trying to find which car out of ten has the bad A&R valve.
I'd like to hear more about your R-9/R-10 experiment. What exactly worked and what didn't? I am told the H-2 coupler heads were the same on both cars, but the electric portions were different.
The electric portions were latched back. Air is easy. Keep
the SAP/MR angles pulled. When running from the 9 keep the
BP angle pulled about half way as well. Otherwise the 10 back feeds BP pressure in it's leak down feature which makes up for cars with bad compressors or leaks in the BP. The 9 will run and the 10 dead in tow will have emegency only.
When running from the 10 charge top handle at the cab
coupled to the 9. Push the valve to past full release,
that way the valve will hold 0 SAP and allow you not to
hold the dead man. Move to the head out cab on the 10. Top
side again carefully manipulate the the valve between
handle off and emergency. It feeds the SAP and vents
slowly the BP simultaneously. Now the two cars can be run
with the 10 pulling and the 9 dead in tow but with active
service and emergency braking.
This is an old main shop motormen's trick. It's done in variation to this day with R-46/SMEE lash up's. Only the motorman at the jack out end of the move actually charges the train. The man at the working end where the coupling and uncoupling happens operates like I outlined. They carry specially made cutting keys with a socket welded to the end allowing them a two in one tool that weighs less. Again manipulating the valve between emergency and handle off does the trick.
The NYAB valves are even better. They can be moved from full service to handle off without dumping the brakes. Gotta be quick with the cheater handle though. Real quick.
SICK SICK SICK!!!! I love it!
One question: if you charge top-side and then over-rotate the
shaft of the ME42 beyond full release, does that also seat the
SAP tappet in the stand or is it going to be venting SAP?
It depends on the valve and the position of the handle. On original ME42 found on R10 through R22, there is a position past Full Release that will seat the valve stand tappet AND energize the R-wire. Just a hair forward of that, the valve will remain lapped with no energized A or R so you can tease the electric portions with a hostler to the coupler's or valve's A and R terminals while the deadman is bypassed. The same applies to ME42a WABCO ONLY!!! On ME 42a valves rebuilt by NYAB, found on R26 to R36 cars, the same applies except that you can only energize the R wire by lapping between emergency and handle off. I find some NYABS have a stop on the cam to prevent rotation past full release. Break out the R142s!!!
Oh I can't wait to see what Damage Inc. can figure out on the R-142's!
So, What can I do with a 26-C Brake Valve that isn't in I.P. No. 74
Well? If it's an ASC equipped engine you can defeat the speed control when running light by making a full service reduction and suppressing the automatic application of the engine's brakes. Now you're free to speed as much as you want. Just don't let the FRA catch you.
COOL!
In the interest of preserving it's use, I won't print how to make R-44's do 55 here. But I do say it's fun to go roaring down from Colubus Circle to 42/8th again!
Only problem is holding the doors an inordanite amount of time to compensate for the extra speed and not run early.
Secret Squirrels get to play more :~)
Still no E-CAM reprogram to do away with that loophole?
Still there! Shhh.....
Never mind that runaway stretch. How about the run from 59th to 125th?
It's fast till 96th and then timered to death.
I didn't think it was that bad when I rode on that stretch in October. It would have been nice if those R-38s could have gotten up to 40; 37-38 was about the best they could do. Bring back the good old days, I say. The only place you might need a timer is on the curve into 125th St.
Now if it were only that easy on a certain group of 75-foot cars which shall remain nameless....
O-K.......
Hey, Eric, you forgot ABEL, AB1B, ABC, ABD-1,and ABDS,as well as the DB-60 and DB-60L valves Oh, well, HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL MY FRIENDS AT SUBTALK.
OK, 26 26L 26RL 26PSA, 30DL 30DWL, 30CDW, and EPIC
What about 27LA and 26NL (26C brake valve with a 6N distributing valve) I'm putting that on my 23 ton GE :-)
ALL SUTALKERS NEED TO THANK DAVID PIRMANN FOR THIS WONDERFUL WEBSITE WHICH IS GOING TO ENTER THE NEXT CENTURY.
THANKS DAVE FOR THE GOOD TIMES AND GREAT INFORMATION.
CHEER CHEER CHEER
This is not necessary. If you want to thank me, keep on topic, avoid flamage, and ignore obvious trolls.
-Dave
True, but I enjoy the site, happy millenium to you and your contributors.
Don't be so modest, Dave; you do deserve a well-earned Thank You for the countless hours of pleasure that your website has brought to myself and my fellow Subtalkers and NYC Subway fans.
Keep up the good work!
i would like to thank him plus the fact that i knew where to go to shoot
still pictures and vidieos etc...
and to see the old r1-9 to r30 cars
in picture jpgs etc........
my only complaint is that i do not believe we need racists and haters of homeless-workfare-welfare
persons and other haters!!
it is a sad thing to see persons who have no other place than a
transit system areas to call home...
it is good to see gain that the older
pre r 40 type cars looked more beautiful and had the classic subway car look
without this site it would not have been possible to see the good
old museum classics!!
thank you n.y.c. subway resources !!!
Note to "salaam allah subway photographer": Don't you think that if you are trying to appear as a new poster it would be more convincing if you left your address blank?
Note to "salaam allah subway photographer": Don't you think that if you are trying to appear as a new poster it would be more convincing if you left your address blank?
It wouldn't matter if he called himself Joe Smith and used js@yahoo.com for his e-mail address, the message and the style is a dead giveaway. some people just can't go incognito.
From
Hey, at least he's making an effort at making sense and not harping on the same points all the time. The style I can deal with.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I didn't even have to look at the email address I know who it was from the third word. But to agree with mouse, this post is much more pleasnt.
Hey, at least he's making an effort at making sense and not harping on the same points all the time. The style I can deal with.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes. I can deal with the style also.
From
OK, so the next Wresting match will be Mr. Willie vs. Beyond Reason!!!
OK, so the next Wresting match will be Mr. Willie vs. Beyond Reason!!!
Uh-Oh!
From
Women and children off the streets!
Thanks, Dave - for a site well done. Keep making it better.
From
I'll second that. And Happy Holidays to all!
A very Merry Christmas to Dave and all the Subtalkers.
I agree. Thanks to David for putting together such an excellent website and for providing this forum. As a webmaster myself, I know how much of a thankless task it can be at times. Keep up the good work!!
And best holiday wishes to everybody else as well.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I was looking through my "Tracks of the NYC Subway" book when I started to wonder about the prospect park tunnels. When were the prospect park tunnels used (I assume it was for a type of express.) Also, Do they ever run trains in them anymore?
-Harry
They run re-routes and deadheads through the tunnels occasionally. I can hear them in the basement of my house, since they pass 1 1/2 blocks away after exiting the park. I've also heard them go by while over a grate in the park.
Larry, approximately where would these tunnels be in the park?
Also, do those tunnels have anything to do with the planned -- yet never finished -- Brighton/Culver tunnel-connection?
Doug aka BMTman
heydoug--- Either I have been having a bad influence on Larry or if you look at a Brooklyn street map, the F from about 16th St to 9th St around Bartel Pritchard Square seems to be within the park. I wonder if that is related to the day the Macks reappeared a couple of months ago, and then disappeared into the Park. Check a street map.
When the F enters the park, it splits. The local tracks travel along Prospect Park West (9th Avenue) then curve onto Prospect Avenue. The express travels diagonally toward 11th Avenue. There is a grate near the entrace to the park between 10th & 11th. It then passes under some houses and onto Prospect Avenue under the local, aided by a curve in Prospect.
You can see all this on tax lot maps, since where the F passes under buildings, the tax lot maps show the easement.
I think the Culver express tracks take a shortcut under the park at some location. These tracks are normally used only for out of service trains. Last year there was some kind of testing being done with a 2 car set of R42's from the J line in this tunnel, with the train running back and forth between Church and 7th Ave. During the afternoon rush, many "inserts" coming in from the CI yard are run up these tracks, not going into service until they reach Jay St.
Doug; I think that they are refering to the express tracks of the IND Smith Street Line which use a more direct route then the local tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Doug; I think that they are refering to the express tracks of the IND Smith Street Line which use a more direct route then the local tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There are 2 places where the IND does this. The other is the Queens Line, where the express takes a more direct route and is separated from the local going through Northern Blvd., 46th St. and Steinway St.
From
According to some IND Second System proposals, these express tracks which only had regular service in the late 60's and early 70's, were to be used for a route down Fort Hamilton Parkway to Staten Island via a tunnel.
A route down FHP, possibly the G, would have been a natural for the Boro Park, Dyker Heights and Bay Ridge neighborhoods, and would have connected easily to Staten Island over the Verrazano, if Mr. Moses was not as intransigent. If you look at the map, Dyker Heights is ill-served by subway service.
It could have branched from the IND at Prospect Avenue and you could have had stops at McDonald, 37th, New Utrecht with a transfer with the B/M West End, 53rd, 61st with a transfer to the Sea Beach (N), Bay Ridge Avenue, Bay Ridge Parkway, and then could have been constructed on the Gowanys Expressway median and traveled across the Verrazano where, after stops in Arrochar and Rosebank, could merge with the SIR at that point.
Actually the question of rail travel over the Verrazano is rendered moot -- the steep grades at either end makes it impossible. There would have to have been made a much lower third level (and with much longer approaches) to accomodate railroad equipment.
This question was mentioned in a report (can't remember the one) that involved rail freight over the Verrazano as an alternative to a rail tunnel and the rail barges to Bush Terminal/Bay Ridge LIRR.
Doug aka BMTman
Gentlepeople ....
If you've already seen the page on the 9th Ave El and the Polo Grounds Shuttle trip report, GO BACK AND READ IT AGAIN! :)
It's been updated with some additional historical information and the findings of our field trip to the Polo Grounds Shuttle (the trip report I promised to write). All the pictures now have captions describing exactly what's being looked at.
(As soon as I get everyone's name in the group photo (or at least those of you who wish to be identified), I'll pass that information to Dave so we can get the caption updated. If you wish to be identified in the photo, you can post here or send me e-mail privately. Those of you who have already done so need not do it again!)
Thanks, Dave, for making the changes available so quickly.
Now it's back to wrapping up the IND history page .....
--Mark
Dave ...
The caption for polo3.jpg on the 9th Ave EL page should read "At 162nd St and River Ave." Andersen Ave is 2 blocks west of that picture.
--Mark
At the end of the field trip, we walked in the housing complex where the Polo Grounds Stadium once stood.
Here's some information on the Polo Grounds Stadium (there were 4 of them), which was demolished beginning April 10th, 1964, using the same wrecking ball as that used to demolish Ebbets Field.
--Mark
Is it true that the original locaton of home plate has been preserved in the courtyard of that housing project?
Yes, there is a plaque marking the approximate location of home plate and commemorating the baseball teams that played there. (Giants, Yankees, Mets- no mention of the football Giants) It was our last stop on the tour before the group photo.
Should also note that behind the four tall buildings on the site of the Polo Grounds were a group of smaller, older, apartment houses, the Colonial Park Houses. Thesse were built in the late 1940's on the site of the old 9th Ave. el storage yard that for many years was behind the left field wall of the Polo Grounds. The famous photo of Bobby Thomson's 1951 playoff home run clearly shows these buildings in the background.
Hi Folks, It seems that some of you out there have pics of the R142As has anyone sent them to this website yet? We would like to see what these creatures look like. Thank you.
Yes, I sent Dave a number of pictures. When he posts them, I'm sure he'll tell us.
--Mark
Most of Windsor Terrace is covered by rowhouses built between 1900 and 1920 -- before the F train was built. But over the Prospect Park/15th Street station, you have what appears to be a 1950s or early 1960s LeFrak apartment building and Our Lady's Field a play field owned by Holy Name Church. Were rowhouses knocked down to build that station?
Similarly, where Prospect Avenue curves, and the express tracks curve to meet the local, there are a couple of garages, and a lot that was vacant when we moved in in 1986 but was replaced by 1980s apartments. Did these replace anything earlier as a result of the subway?
I have lived in the neighborhood for most of my life (35 years), and I was up there today. It certainly looks like the lots between Windsor Place and the park correspond to the station. Whether they were leveled for the work would take investigation at the City Register where the deeds and easements would be recorded.
Construction is slow in Windsor Terrace. Lots sit empty for decades. So, it is very possible that the lots that go from 16th Street to Prospect Park Southwest, where the apartment house is, sat empty for 20+ years.
As for the Prospect Avenue lots, the big lot with houses on it was the Pilgrim Laundry, which suffered a couple of big fires in the mid and late 70s before being demolished. The old Texaco station at Prospect and Terrace was very old. I don't think any of the lots along Prospect Avenue (and there were a number before constructionover the past 30 years) came from subway construction.
On the other hand, I heard form a guy who lived here in the 1920s and 30s that the Seeley Street Bridge over Prospect Avenue is the result of the subway construction, where the hill was removed from Prospect Avenue.
Good to see you back Marc.
And thanks for the interesting info on the F Line in the Windsor Park area. It will be intriging to find what still exists at the City Real Property Offices on the block & Lot information.
Doug aka BMTman
That's a good point. Perhaps I'd be able to find some Sanborn Maps from the 1930s in the basement of City Planning -- they might show something.
BTW, there is more construction going on in Windsor Terrace right now than at any time since 1965. To think they required city subsidies to build housing on the Pilgrim Laundry site not that long ago. I'm glad I own a house, because if I didn't, I couldn't afford to live here.
The old paste-on Sanborn maps are great. Another place to look is the Municipal Archives at the Surrogates Court building in Manhattan. They have all the old records from the Buildings Department and its predecessors. I was checking out a building for work and found all of the applications for construction and certificates of occupancy.
Pratt Institute's library also has the paste on Sanborn maps. You have to ask permission, and can't photocopy them. I did an afternoon's research on former carbarns and el stations using them. Wow.
There's a bridge over Prospect Avenue at Seeley Street? Tell more!
ok party people... does the r142 look like this or is it different? Is the R142A a copy of the 142 only with a black paint (Are those red spots paint?)
This evening at 19:22 hours, a five car transfer left Linden shop,destination:239th St. These are the first R-142's.
This evening at 19:22 hours, a five car transfer left Linden Shop, destination: 239th St.
A little while ago at 19:44 hours on my cats whiskers wireless, I received a Morse Code distress call from the 722 out of Linden Shop stating that the all hands were abandoning ship and to send a diesel to haul the cars to the scrappers.
O yjoml yjsy yjod esd s hrmiomr ,rddshr/
I'm sorry I touch type and I just noticed that both hands were shifted over 1 key to the right. See if you can decode that last sentence.
Y92 qg975 5y8w:
So you thought it was a genuine message, eh?
SO,YOU THINK YOU GOT JOKES!!ha ha ha ha ha ha hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HA HA HUHHhhhh Whew I could help myself ,NOTTT
I should have realized that a musician like you would have no trouble with a transposition of key.
Now I will place my hands on the row above the home keys.
yq006 y9oo8eq6w 59 qoo
Unless, of course, you have absolute pitch as I do. Transposition can be a nightmare, since I can mentally "hear" a printed page of music.
P. S. There's an extra "l" in the second word.
Yes, the R142A seen at the Kawasaki plant looks very similar to that picture.
The redbird stripe on the side also looks like that.
I have taken a couple of pictures, but not enough to finish the roll. As soon as I have I will get them developed and send them. Thanks.
(I will save the Ripley part for last)
Today I was scheduled to work a day tour instead of my usual 4x12 so I decided to take the train to work 'cause I hate traffic. After getting off the LIRR at ENY I went up the esalator at Bway Junction to the "J" and saw the inside part of the new crossover to the city bound "L". (I've only seen it from Bushwich Av getting off the Robinson Pway) Although its still under construction it seems like a big waste. You actually have to walk more to get to the "L" and it looks like there is more steps. Since I've never went to work by train after 0700 I never experianced the skip-stop. Nobody seemed to know which (the J or the Z) made Gates Av. I finally decided to take the first train and if it skipped Gates I would go to Myrtle and come back. Luckily I got on a "Z" and it stopped at Gates!!!
And now for the Believe it or Not part:
Coming home when I changed at Jamaica I saw there were 2 trains stopping at Mineola (where I park) within 3 minutes of each other, one to Huntington & one to Oyster Bay. Since I really hate the M-1's and M-3's I decided to take the O.B. train. I prefer either the tri-level or the old 1955 MU's over the M-1,3's. Well an old diesel with the '55 cars came in and to my astonishment the windows were actually CLEAN!!!! You could actually see through 'em!!! Where's Ripley??? Is this a new trend? Now if they could only bring back the old reversible seats instead of the M1 lookalike seats!!
No if they would only clean the windows on Metro North, so one can see the great view of the Hudson Valley
Now if they would only clean the windows on Metro North, so one can see the great view of the Hudson Valley.
Agreed, esp. on the river side of Hudson Line trains. However, in my experience, the worst window on Hudson Line trains didn't even compare to the AVERAGE window on the old LIRR coaches that ran the shore line. They were horrible, awful, ridiculous, pathetic ... words fail me.
I respect others' enjoyment of the old equipment, but I personally give thanks each and every time a bilevel shows up.
There is a river on the Hudson Line trains???
Where?? I never saw one!!
If you squint out the windows on the West Side, you can see a river
LIRR 1955 Stock MP-75 Roach Coach #2844 - AN ABSOLUTE PIG STY! And as for the windows - You Can't See What Isn't There. They're close to opaque from the philth.
Wayne
What's the deal with the windows on the LIRR diesels and Metro North anyway? Is it a big expense to wash the windows?
I always try to be the first one on the diesel when it opens its doors, since there is generally one or two clean windows per car.
When are they being retired, finally? I did the fantrip all over the LIRR in September, but during the holidays I have a little free time between freelance assignments and looking for real work. Is the Oyster Bay Branch still the best bet to find a golden oldie?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not sure but I assume all of the diesel lines have a few. The O.B. line has to be the most convenient to you as I think I remember that you live near the Port Washington Line which terminates not too far from the O.B. line.
The big thing I'll miss when they finally get rid of them will be riding on the platforms between cars, especially between the loco and the 1rst car. Its been a real long time since there was no rear loco and you could stand outside against the chain!
I will miss the 'real railroading' aspect of the old diesels. I liked it that we had this throwback route from Jamaica to LIC that made several local stops in Queens. It cost $4.75 for that leg but, of course, I used my monthly pass...
It's more like a Moulden Oldie. Not since the R-6s and their Eastern Division brethren began sputtering out in the 1970s have I seen such claptrap rolling stock. There was one of them in addition to the aforementioned #2844 - I think it was #2879 - the plug in the John was defective and the entire car stank as a result of this. P.U.!
Wayne
12/24/99
Getting back to unviewable windows, how about those windows 20 years ago on the old LIRR push pulls! They used GREEN plexiglass. A dirty window was one thing, but looking out a GREEN window on a sunny day had an effect on your eyesight. After leaving the train, some colors I saw were reversed, but after a short while my vision was normal. The GREEN window was replaced by the more acceptable grayish tinted Lexan. Thank God for that!!
Bill Newkirk
Or how about the old Stillwell coaches that the E-L used until New Jersey FINALLY bought them new coaches right before they went bye-bye...they were crappy in the 60's, and werent retired until almost the 80s! How bad were the old IRT cars before they were retired..anyone remember? Especially the old 1939 Worlds Fair cars, they look like they are pretty bad shape there in the pics from GOTHAM TURNSTILES.
(I will save the Ripley part for last)
Today I was
scheduled to work a day tour instead of my usual
4x12 so I decided to take the train to work 'cause I
hate traffic. After getting off the LIRR at ENY I
went up the esalator at Bway Junction to the "J" and
saw the inside part of the new crossover to the city
bound "L". (I've only seen it from Bushwich Av
getting off the Robinson Pway) Although its still
under construction it seems like a big waste. You
actually have to walk more to get to the "L" and it
looks like there is more steps. Since I've never
went to work by train after 0700 I never experianced
the skip-stop. Nobody seemed to know which (the J
or the Z) made Gates Av. I finally decided to take
the first train and if it skipped Gates I would go
to Myrtle and come back. Luckily I got on a "Z" and
it stopped at Gates!!!
And now for the Believe
it or Not part:
Coming home when I changed
at Jamaica I saw there were 2 trains that stopped
Mineola (where I park) within 3 minutes of each
other, one to Huntington & one to Oyster Bay. Since
I really hate the M-1's and M-3's I decided to take
the O.B. train. I prefer either the tri-level or
the old 1955 MU's over the M-1,3's. Well an old
diesel with the '55 cars came in and to my
astonishment the windows were actually
CLEAN!!!! You could actually see through
'em!!! Where's Ripley??? Is this a new trend? Now
if they could only bring back the old reversible
seats instead of the M1 lookalike seats!!
I know revenue service for Airtrain is scheduled to begin in 2002.
I was out @JFK today, and the section of Elevated Rail from JFK to Howard Beach looks almost complete.
Does anyone out there know any dates as to when they will begin training, testing, or deliveries. Also, where will the shop/yard be located for the Airtrain?
Thanks
Fred
The very first deliveries of the Airtrain vehicles are tentatively scheduled for the very end of 2000 and/or early 2001. They will be sent to the Operations, Maintenance, and Storage Facility (OMSF). That is the shop/yard for Airtrain service. The facility is now under construction and is located within JFK Airport just east of the Long Term Parking Lot and alongside the Nassau Expressway. The vehicles will undergo extensive testing before being put into service.
Check out the Port Authority website for information on the progress of the project at:
http://www.panynj.gov/pr/prframe.htm
The first maps of the IND Rockaway connection show a Hamilton Beach station. Was the old Hamilton Beach LIRR station open in 1956, or did the TA have plans to reopen one that were cancelled?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I also recall seeing a "Hamilton Beach" station, south of Howard Beach, on some of the first maps issued when the Rockaway lines opened in 1956. However, the maps I remember had the station blacked-out.
I know that the LIRR had a station there, and there may have been some thought of building a subway station there when the line was converted for subway service, but no station was ever built. The IND never stopped there.
-- Ed Sachs
It must have blended in to the bay
Kevin, Hamilton Beach station was just before the Bay.
Its appearance on a map must be a holdover from the LIRR, since it, like The Raunt, was deleted along with LIRR operation.
IIRC, you could see some very slight evidence of its existence when the RA line opened.
And I thought it was a blender:::
The Hamilton Beach and Ramblersville areas are interesting areas of Queens due to their isolation, soon to be featured on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was on 33rd near 6th yesterday and I saw a fishbowl bus turning onto 33rd from 6th!
I thought the MTA was trotting out some 1960s equipment to deal with the holiday crush, but then I realized it was a charter bus. A Hasidic group, since all the guys on board were wearing brimmed hats...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was watching TV the other day, and one of the shows I was watching, set in NYC, had a scene where two people who had been looking for each other spot each other on buses going in the opposite direction. I was thinking for a second, "what's wrong with this picture" when it hit me: not just one New Look (aka fishbowl) bus but both buses in the scene! In a show set in New York City in the present? I guess the Hollywood studios have a lot of surplus New Looks hanging around for movies and television shows and they figure nobody can tell the difference.
Yeah, Hollywood has the left over fishbowls from "Speed."
Was LA still using fishbowls in 1991, when Speed was filmed?
Just like those spanking-new Toronto T-1 subway cars passing off for NY's ....
--Mark
You know you're a transit fan when the most important things you remember from movies and TV are the types of buses and subway cars. I watch the movie Naked City just to see the Low V's on the Flushing Line. And was I the only one when watching the Waco siege on TV that kept noticing that old GMC bus that was almost always on camera?
You know you're a transit fan when the most important things you remember from movies and TV are the types of buses and subway cars. I watch the movie Naked City just to see the Low V's on the Flushing Line. And was I the only one when watching the Waco siege on TV that kept noticing that old GMC bus that was almost always on camera?
You know you're a transit fan when you date events according to the type of equipment was running, or even brand-new at the time; such as associating the Cuban Missile Crisis with brand-new R-27's on the Brighton Line, or the moon landing in 1969 with the fact that the Q's were still in service.
From
Santa Monica Mun Bus Lines had a few Canadian GMC New Looks still running. So does Culver City Municipal Bus Lines. At Waco, the real bus was a old look GMC 5100 series. On the TV Special they used a new look Bus. I remember the RTD/MTA in LA always sold off busses in auction when they were retired. A friend bough one for 3007 dollars a 1974 GMC and rebuilt it into a motor home
And Moon Day 1969 saw some of the very first R42's entering service on the "D" line. These weren't the first A/C'd cars (R40AC and R40M were, along with the ten prototype R38ACs) but they were sure a relief after a hot, muggy day spent in Yankee Stadium.
Within a month, the very last BMT Standards would make their final runs on the "M" line.
Wayne
Sarge asked if he was the only one who noticed the
GM Old look sitting in front of the Waco compound?
No, my eye always fixed on the bus when I see the
film of the seige.
Speaking of old buses, I was into an Aerocoach spell
a couple of years ago, and actually I still like the
looks of the front of the Aerocoach, when I ran into
one in front of the Main Post Office in Manhattan.
It was privately owned by some commune, who came
into the city to distribute free bandages to people
in need. This may sound like my typical spaced out
crap, but it really happened. Quite
uncharacteristically, I went inside the bus and
asked about the bus and the group. They were
strange, and if I remember correctly they had the
rear of a GM old look mounted on the rear. I don't
think I had ever seen an Aerocoach in the flesh.
It's true what was said about transit buffs locking
in on buses or trains in a news clip. There was a
PBS special many years ago about Paul Robeson, and
the riot that followed an appearance of his in
upstate New York, and there was a shot of an
Aerocoach leaving the scene that I always look for
when I watch the tape.
There's a Hasidim charter operator that has several old fishbowls that belonged to Triboro (The lettering is gone, but apparently dirt stuck to the glue...) Also, NYBS operates several fishbowls in regular service. I think they're the only operator with Fishbowls that take Metrocards.
-Hank
And THIS FISHBOWL operates in Kennebunkport, Maine. I'll give our SubTalk Field Trip participants a ride on it next summer (details to be worked out next spring...)! In the background is "Tower C" from Boston's Orange Line Elevated, now also living at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
(Yeah, that's me... rubber-tired-Transit & Weather Together)
Every once in a while you get to see one of the NYBS fishbowls parked at 23rd and Madison waiting for the PM commute. They must have a pretty good maintenance department.
According to the registration stickers on the buses, they're younger than the RTS' that the TA is now retiring (1982/83 model year)
-Hank
New York Bus Service received its last deliveries of GM fishbowls in 12/72 from General Motors.
They only got ONE order of fishbowls from Canada in 1/82. After that, they got "Classics".
The "registration stickers" might be newer because license plates may have been changed for some reason or another.
The stickers are renewed every year. In NYS, they model year and make of the vehicle are printed on the registration sticker; in the case of the NYBS Fishbowls, they say '198n GMD' in addition to the plate number, VIN nuber, power (gas or diesel) and vehicle type as defined in state law (in this case, 'Bus')
-Hank
Up until about 10 years ago the upstate city of Saratoga Springs still had the oldstyle GMC's going to the racetrack.
I use my computer here at work to get on the Internet since I don't have one of my own. I will not be able to get back on-line till Monday since they're sending us home in two hours (hooray!), and this place is closed tomorrow. I'd like to wish all who post to Sub Talk, seasons greetings, and happy, healthy holidays! Thanks to Dave the webmaster for making SubTalk and the entire site such a great place to visit.
- Ed
Here is my greeting in the light of the Santa Clause Conductor Thread I felt this covers all bases and would be good for a TA anouncement (BTW it was posted last year too):
Please accept with no obligation, implied or express, our best wishes
for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress,
non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the holiday* of your
choice on or about the winter solstice, practised within the most
enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion or secular practices
of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions
and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practise religious
or secular traditions at all, and a fiscally successful, personally
fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of
the generally accepted calendar year 2000, but not without due respect
for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to
society have helped to make America great (not to imply that America
is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "America"
in the western hemisphere) and without regard to the race, creed,
color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of
the wishee.
Notice, Disclaimer and Conditions of Greeting:
By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This
greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely
transferable, provided there is no alteration to the original
greeting, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the
sole discretion of the wisher. There is no promise by the wisher,
express or implied, to actually implement any of the wishes for
her/himself or others. This wish is warranted to perform as expected
within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year,
or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever
comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or
issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.
*As used herein, "holiday" is limited to its secular meaning, without
regard to its English language derivation from the words "holy day".
You do a great job of demonstratimg absurdity woth more.
Its a real shame that so many people are so damn sensitive
that this is so funny.
But to hell with em.
MERRY CHRISTMAS DAMN IT!
To All at Subtalk From
>>demonstratimg absurdity woth more.
Can I quote that??
I knew you would like the holiday greeting >G
Hey, the best way to demonstrate absurdity is with more absurdity.
Like using the truth to out a lie.
Likewise, I'll be offline till Monday, so enjoy your holiday, everybody!
I wonder if anyone has drawings of Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson Avenues stations showing the station entrances? I noticed in some of the photos that the platforms go into the tunnel and maybe there is hint of side platform. Is that true? Also, are there any entrances from the subway.
Maybe one of the subtalkers would be willing to make a sketch of the stations per the tour? Also, how long is the tunnel?
I wonder if anyone has drawings of Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson Avenues stations showing the station entrances? I noticed in some of the photos that the platforms go into the tunnel and maybe there is hint of side platform. Is that true?
Sedgwick Ave is two side platforms. Entrances in the tunnel portion probably led up to the sidewalk of Sedgwick Avenue, though I do not know this for certain. There is no evidence whatsoever of the fare control area on Sedgwick Ave itself, nor the staircases which once led down to it. From the trip report:
Evidence of two subway-type entrances could be seen on the eastern portions of both the uptown and downtown side platforms. In the picture pg-sedgwick09.jpg below, the bricked-up entrance was partially broken into, and a peek inwards revealed the standard yellowish station tiles that can still be seen in many subway stations today.
Also, are there any entrances from the subway.
What subway? The 4 along Jerome Ave? (Too far east)
how long is the tunnel?
I will guess about 1,000 feet long, given that the tunnel was about 4 "short blocks" long. I am assuming here that 20 "short blocks" is one mile, so 5280 / 20 = 264, multiplied by 4 blocks is 1,056 feet.
--Mark
12/23/99
One point I'd like to make is about the Sedgewick Ave station. On the 12/19 tour, we noticed cinder blocked stairways that would probably lead up to the street. Isn't that where the Major Deegan runs today? Also the overpass that appears in photos before closure. Was this overpass original or built after the Deegan was constructed? And what year was the Deegan built?
One thing I noticed that at Sedgewick and Anderson/Jerome that the stairways were kind of narrow. Anybody on the tour notice that too?
Bill Newkirk
One point I'd like to make is about the Sedgewick Ave station. On the 12/19 tour, we noticed cinder blocked stairways that would probably lead up to the street. Isn't that where the Major Deegan runs today? Also the overpass that appears in photos before closure. Was this overpass original or built after the Deegan was constructed? And what year was the Deegan built?
The overpass was there before the Deegan. I don't think the overpass was there once the Deegan was built. Look at the in-service photo. The overpass is there, but not the Deegan. On the other pic, taken in 1974, the Deegan is there, but the overpass looks like it would have been in the way of the Deegan. See the rectangular outline on the downtown platform. The base for the overpass stood on that.
>
From
BMT LINES is correct. The overpass was there but the Deegan was not. The initial portion of the Major Deegan ran from the Grand Boulevard & Concourse to the Triborough Bridge and opened up in 1939. In 1946, Robert Moses proposed an extension of the expressway north to connect with the New York State Thruway in Westchester. Construction began on this extension in 1950 and was completed in 1956. In 1964, the interchange with the Cross Bronx Expressway opened.
Since the shuttle was little used after the 9th Ave El closed, and construction of the Major Deegan in that area didn't begin until 1950, I'll speculate that the overpass stood until sometime in the early 50s, when it was knocked down to build the expressway. That would have meant that the two entrances in the underground portion of Sedgwick Ave were the only ways to get in, and you couldn't transfer for a train on the opposite platform from that time forth.
...about the Sedgewick Ave station. On the 12/19 tour, we noticed cinder blocked stairways that would probably lead up to the street. Isn't that where the Major Deegan runs today?
I think the staircases would have led to some kind of street entrance at Sedgwick Avenue, whose remains have been completely obliterated. Sedgwick is slighly east of the Deegan.
...And what year was the Deegan built?
The history of the Major Deegan Expressway is summarized very well at Steve Anderson's "Roads of New York" site. The section that runs over the Polo Grounds shuttle opened in 1956.
One thing I noticed that at Sedgewick and Anderson/Jerome that the stairways were kind of narrow. Anybody on the tour notice that too?
Yes, almost too narrow for two people to pass comfortably. This is not without precedent though; see 72nd St on the IRT Broadway Line.
--Mark
Since the shuttle was little used after the 9th Ave El closed, and construction of the Major Deegan in that area didn't begin until 1950, I'll speculate that the overpass stood until sometime in the early 50s, when it was knocked down to build the expressway. That would have meant that the two entrances in the underground portion of Sedgwick Ave were the only ways to get in, and you couldn't transfer for a train on the opposite platform from that time forth.
Sometime during its last years, the shuttle was reduced to single-track operation, which accounts for the sign at Jerome-Anderson:
Maybe service on the downtown track was cut when the overpass was taken out. Someone posted when service was cut, but I can't find it and I don't remember the date. That SubTalk poster mentioned that service on the shuttle was cut from 15 min. intervals to 30 min. intervals. That would have meant cutting service from 2 trains on both tracks to 1 train on 1 track.
From
Since the shuttle was little used after the 9th Ave El closed, and construction of the Major Deegan in that area didn't begin until 1950, I'll speculate that the overpass stood until sometime in the early 50s, when it was knocked down to build the expressway. That would have meant that the two entrances in the underground portion of Sedgwick Ave were the only ways to get in, and you couldn't transfer for a train on the opposite platform from that time forth.
Sometime during its last years, the shuttle was reduced to single-track operation, which accounts for the sign at Jerome-Anderson:
Maybe service on the downtown track was cut when the overpass was taken out. Someone posted when service was cut, but I can't find it and I don't remember the date. That SubTalk poster mentioned that service on the shuttle was cut from 15 min. intervals to 30 min. intervals. That would have meant cutting service from 2 trains on both tracks to 1 train on 1 track.
From
The question posed here was when the shuttle was reduced in service.
I'm not so sure the Deegan interfered with the shuttle in anyway.
If you have ever watched a tape titled "NY Elevateds (in the 1950s, 1960s)", there was footage devoted to the shuttle. The answer may lie here. According to the narrator of the tape, the el service was cut to one track shortly after the Giants moved to San Francisco in 1957. A two car tain of Lo-Vs travelled back and forth on the 167th St bound track. The tape shows a train travelling to the Polo Grounds on the uptown side. At the time the footage was made, the track which was the 155th St side, was rusted. The train started out of 167th St middle and picked up passengers at the Woodlawn Bound Platform and continued on it's way to 155th St.
Do you know what may been the nail in the coffin for the shuttle? The Putnam Line's closing (which was also in 1958) further reduced the importance of the line (according to above mentioned tape). I guess passengers coming from the subway to travel to points north used the shuttle as a connection to the Put. Strange, eh? It's almost hard to believe that at one time a NY Central predesessor used the 155th St Bridge to access the island of Manhattan, prior to use for the 9th Av El. You transferred at 155th St to a train going North. That was the case, but now the line was cut back into the Bronx.
Other things that should be noted: There was a proposal for the shuttle portion of the 9th Av El to be tied into the Lenox Av line to give trains from Woodlawn access to the West Side. An old ERA bulletin mentions this. The reason this didn't happen had something to do with the tunnel between Sedgwick and Jerome-Anderson Avs. The third rail (in the tunnel) would have had to been modified to accomodate the subway cars passing through. As is, the 2 car shuttles used modified shoes to go through the tunnel, otherwise they would never have been able to get into Manhattan. Interesting, huh? It sounds like this plan could have materialized!!!
-Stef
The question posed here was when the shuttle was reduced in service.
I'm not so sure the Deegan interfered with the shuttle in anyway.
If you have ever watched a tape titled "NY Elevateds (in the 1950s, 1960s)", there was footage devoted to the shuttle. The answer may lie here. According to the narrator of the tape, the el service was cut to one track shortly after the Giants moved to San Francisco in 1957. A two car tain of Lo-Vs travelled back and forth on the 167th St bound track. The tape shows a train travelling to the Polo Grounds on the uptown side. At the time the footage was made, the track which was the 155th St side, was rusted. The train started out of 167th St middle and picked up passengers at the Woodlawn Bound Platform and continued on it's way to 155th St.
Do you know what may been the nail in the coffin for the shuttle? The Putnam Line's closing (which was also in 1958) further reduced the importance of the line (according to above mentioned tape). I guess passengers coming from the subway to travel to points north used the shuttle as a connection to the Put. Strange, eh? It's almost hard to believe that at one time a NY Central predesessor used the 155th St Bridge to access the island of Manhattan, prior to use for the 9th Av El. You transferred at 155th St to a train going North. That was the case, but now the line was cut back into the Bronx.
Other things that should be noted: There was a proposal for the shuttle portion of the 9th Av El to be tied into the Lenox Av line to give trains from Woodlawn access to the West Side. An old ERA bulletin mentions this. The reason this didn't happen had something to do with the tunnel between Sedgwick and Jerome-Anderson Avs. The third rail (in the tunnel) would have had to been modified to accomodate the subway cars passing through. As is, the 2 car shuttles used modified shoes to go through the tunnel, otherwise they would never have been able to get into Manhattan. Interesting, huh? It sounds like this plan could have materialized!!!
-Stef
The idea of the Put closing causing the Shuttle's demise has been discussed in another thread last month. Yes, I believe it. As for the Shuttle being incorporated into the Lenox Ave. Line, I didn't know that. They should have done that. It could have preserved the last vestige of the Ninth Ave. El. If the only reason why they didn't g through with the Lenox Ave. plans is changing the third rail, that's the poorest excuse in the world. If they would have incorporated the Shuttle into the Lenox Ave. Line, would 155th St. station have survived?
From
I don't see why it couldn't remain for the folks in the area. I imagine that the el structure could have been torn down and replaced with a structure capable of supporting the heavier subway cars that would take you to the bridge span. The structure beyond 155th St is from the Dual Contracts Era and would therefore remain intact. The connection would have been made from within the Old Lenox Yard. The tracks in the yard point west, so the tracks could turn at 8th Av and continue on an el extension to the bridge.
-Stef
I don't see why it couldn't remain for the folks in the area. I imagine that the el structure could have been torn down and replaced with a structure capable of supporting the heavier subway cars that would take you to the bridge span. The structure beyond 155th St is from the Dual Contracts Era and would therefore remain intact. The connection would have been made from within the Old Lenox Yard. The tracks in the yard point west, so the tracks could turn at 8th Av and continue on an el extension to the bridge.
-Stef
Sounds good to me. We're 41 years too late!
From
12/25/99
I spoke to my friend, Don Harold the other day wishing him a Merry Christmas as I do to you all, and he told me something unique. After the Polo Grounds shuttle closed, a work train was dispatched to recover various items like turnstiles etc. On the consist of Hi-V's, one of the cars was deck roof Hi-V #3662 which survives today at (Branford) Shoreline Museum.
So if you walked the tunnel as did I, the next time you are up at Branford, walk up to #3662 and say, YOU AND I BEEN THROUGH THAT TUNNEL BETWEEN SEDGWICK AND ANDERSON-JEROME !!
Merry Christmas
Bill Newkirk
One more thing regarding the Anderson-Jerome Station. I've noted speculation on that the Jerome Ave. entrance was on the West side of Jerome Ave. I recall the entrance to the station being on the East side, across the street from the hill. There was a small station house with fare controls at street level, and a stairway up to the platform, which spanned Jerome Ave and went into the tunnel to Anderson Ave. The Anderson Ave. entrance was also on the East side of the street.
The Anderson-Jerome station was one of very few on the NY system with entrances from both above (Anderson Ave.) and below (Jerome Ave.)
-- Ed Sachs
One more thing regarding the Anderson-Jerome Station. I've noted speculation on that the Jerome Ave. entrance was on the West side of Jerome Ave. I recall the entrance to the station being on the East side, across the street from the hill. There was a small station house with fare controls at street level, and a stairway up to the platform, which spanned Jerome Ave and went into the tunnel to Anderson Ave. The Anderson Ave. entrance was also on the East side of the street.
The Anderson-Jerome station was one of very few on the NY system with entrances from both above (Anderson Ave.) and below (Jerome Ave.)
-- Ed Sachs
This photo shows that you are correct:
The small stationhouse can be seen in this 1963 photo on the east side of Jerome Ave. I don't have any photos showing the Anderson Ave. entrance, however.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I know the Franklin Shuttle has been up and running for some time now. I rode it on Tuesday since this will probably my last chance to ride it in this century. There was a group of young children probably from a day care center standing on one of the overpasses south of Botanical Garden Station watching the trains go by. Our TO obligingly gave them several toots of the horn. I have also seen young well behaved groups of schoolchildren riding the shuttle on field trips to the Prospect Park Zoo and being equally excited about the train ride as the zoo vist. It is nice to see a rapid transit line that was once a shunned pariah now be a welcome part of the neighborhood.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I'm glad you rode the Franklin. It is a piece of rapid transit history that will continue on into the next millennium with great appreciation community residents an railfans alike.
Incidentally, I am looking into getting some kind of historic recognition for the line. It's too late to get NYC Landmark designation for it as the line had been completely rebuilt and updated. However, there is a possibility -- although remote -- that it could be added to the 'National Register of Historic Places', which would be fitting for this 19th Century ROW.
Doug aka BMTman
Isn't the entire subway supposed to be added to the register?
Doug: I have ridden the Franklin Shuttle more this year then in the past ten. I always managed about one ride a year but did not linger and always had to keep an eye out when I did. The line is now safe and comfortable to ride.
PS My friend Harry the Turtle who lives at the Prospect Park Zoo remembers when the Brewery was open. He and his brother Bert used to work there. I'm sure you remember Bert and Harry Piels.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The first lady made a big deal this summer about designating the No. 7 line a historical route, because of the diversity of neighborhoods it travels through. No word on whether or not John Rocker was at the ceremony.
Other day someone post it about R62a #1886-#1890 on #3 line was link or without link also have yellow label from Pelham line. Guess what i saw this morning & it was links together still have yellow label also #1915 too but not link. Any way what up with that? Are the #3 line is getting Pelham line cars?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
All I know is cars 1901-1915 Where sent over as single cars since the No.3 Line took over the Shuttle operation at Grand Central. As for 1886-1890 I have no clue. Everyone at pelham Insist the Pelham R62A's are going to Flushing. Unless the No.3 and No.6 cars will be sent together. Who knows?
Does anybody know if there is a market for these cards? Are they collectible? Please advise..
Yes and Yes. However, there is no organized "club" as of yet.
At the first "show" a month or so ago there were a lot of people there but I noticed one thing, most had the same cards as everyone else did. There were a few "rare" cards, that is, cards that were not in general circulation.
Perhaps the next show scheduled for 2/12/2000 at BagaTelle Restaurant
12 St. Mark's Place (@ 8th St) in Manhattan 10 AM to 6 PM wil have more.
Got back to DC after a trip to NYC. I arrived Monday morning at Penn Station. Near track 17 there was an area blocked off and it smelled like a fire had occurred there. I went to GC and got the 2000 calendar and got some pics of the terminal before taking the M101 Limited up to Yorkville. On Tuesday, I had no subway travel. I put my bus adventures on BusTalk. Wednesday, I took the 1 from 110 to 96 and then the 2 down to 42. The 1 was signed 9 even though it was about 1 PM (I guess the conductor was too lazy to change the sign). I also saw a 1 heading to 242 Street signed 9 as well. The 2 over ran the 10 marker and the first door location was paralell to a fence making it hard to get out of that location. What is the point of putting it there (southboud express platform at the southbound end)? And today, I took the 6 and E from Yorkville to Penn Station. The elevator from the downtown platform to the crossunder smells really bad. Any indication of the fire is gone from track 17 and a new schedule board has been put up in the main concourse. The old one is still up but moved toward the eastern gates.
Does anyone have the website for New Directions?
www.newdirections.net
You know, I feel there are those employees out here on Subtalk who would benefit from all of the union literature and subsequent website URLs. If Mr. Pirmann doesn't mind as a transportation buff and union rep, I'd like to post addresses for all to seek information. Here goes.
1) Collective bargaining in general http://www.goer.state.ny.us/CNA/
2) Transport Worker's Union
http://www.twu.com/
3) New Directions
http://www.newdirections.net/
4) State laws including the Civil Service, civil rights, public authorities, railroads and others
gopher://Leginfo.LBDC.State.NY.US/11/.laws/
5) Straphanger's Association
http://home.earthlink.net/~straphangers/statesubs99.html
6) OSHA
http://www.osha-slc.gov/OshAct_toc/OshAct_toc_by_sect.html
7) Signal Dept
http://www.newyorkcitytransit.com/
8) Automobile model safety site
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ratings.htm
Any others, let us know. Happy Holidays,
Harold
I think you mean the Straphangers Campaign.
Their NEW website is www.straphangers.org
I just read a most interesting article HREF="http://travel.phillynews.com/wkend/TRAM29.asp"
>here.
Read it and share your thoughts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
by David King
FOR THE INQUIRER
>Along the edge of the platforms
>ran a cement strip ( granite Acutally) of evenly spaced lights >imbedded in the surface. (light for hearing impared to warn of train, >strip for visualy impared to warn of palatform edge)
>New York's subway, meanwhile, finds itself at the opposite end of the
>spectrum. At a ripe old age of 94, its infamy precedes it, with dirty
>stations, decrepit cars, and an infinitely complex array of lines
>keeping the lighthearted at bay.
As an outsider to both systems I find the NYC cars cleaner and in better shape. They are also awsome with the power you feel when exiting a station.
The stations in NYC have character and although not so grand for for their age are in remarkably good shape. Too bay rudy didn't take an interst in freshening them up to make them more appealing ( OH thats righ he closed the most clasic staion to the pulic.) City hall station is more spectacular than any of the concrete stations in DC will ever be.
As for the flashing light incoming train announcements, the NY Subway has LED displays with alarms that announce trains. They make more sense, you can figure out immediately what they do as opposed to the flashing light thingy which takes a few rides to decipher.
Really?? What stations is the LED system in? I don't remember seeing it a couple of years ago when I rode the 4,5,6 and A,C,E trains in Manhatten...
Many of them on the mezzanine, especially where there is an OFF HOUR WAITING AREA not on the platform.
Washington DC trains are boring.
No express and local service. Trains don't run side/by/side in the same direction.
DC also doesn't have a character either. Every station seems to resembles each other.
N vs DC
The flashing lights are OK, since at worst you have just one of two possible lines to choose from on any platform (Blue-Orange, Yellow-Green, etc.), but after seeing the effect of a major leak at the Federal Triangle station, I would say the water stains on the concrete walls are going to be a real pain to fix up by the time the DC system gets to be 95 years old.
Mount Vernon Square-UDC is plagued by numerous leaks; it appears to have affected the mezzanine surface. It's quite a mess. They're working on it.
Wayne
Doesn't seem repetitive to me. I just got back from NYC and compared to DC, as a passenger, it is not that great. It is old, slow, and noisy. Here in DC when I got back, I could get my suitcase on and off the train with no problem, there was frequent service, and the Ride-On bus came on time to take me out to my house. In NYC, I would have waited twice as long for a crowded train or the Ride-On bus (which hardly ever comes, and when it does, on time).
You're telling me that the D.C. subway is more frequent than New York's? I doubt it.
try atlanta!! 3 times as slow!!
LIKE HERE IN LOS ANGELES!!!
Actually the DC Metro is sometimes more frequent. During rush hour every train runs every 6 minutes. In NYC some trains run every 8 minutes. In the center of DC and nearby Arlington, there is a train every 3 minutes on combined routes during rush hour. Does the N and R combined come every 3 minutes? I doubt it. Does the F run every 3 minutes through the local stops on 6th Ave? I doubt it. And during non-rush hours on weekdays every branch has 12-minute service and there is in-town 6 minute service, which is the same as much of the NYC train lines. In other words, the DC Metro may have more frequent service than parts of the New York Subway system. And the Philadelphia Subway surface system seems to have a car every 30 seconds during rush hour running through those tunnels. And the MFSE in Philadelphia also can seem like one continuous train during rush hour when they are 2-3 minutes apart.
A few days ago I was riding MARTA and they were running at two minute headways on the north/south during the day. I usually see them running at four minute intervals, but it seems they changed it.
That's true. Headways in DC and Philly are fairly respectable. The one difference though, is train length. A 10-car train every 3 minutes is a bit different from 6-car train every 3 minutes. But that just makes sense given the size of the cities. After all, Brooklyn is bigger than Philly...
Ive ridden DC s Metro quite a bit in the past few years, and I always found them clean, and quite, but no rail fan window. The thing I do not like is that out on the Vienna line, the parking lots fill up so early that if you are traveling after AM Rush Hours, there is no place to park.
DC runs 6 75' cars per train during rush hour usually. NYC runs 8 75' cars per train.
You're quite right. I wasn't accurately comparing train lengths given car lengths.
However, New York's trains are still longer than DC's, and much longer than Philly's. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that headways aren't the whole picture - there's much more to capacity when comparing systems.
What's a ride-on bus?
Ride-On Bus is the bus system in Montgomery County, Maryland. A nice bus system.
Chaohwa
I think it's a bus that you Ride-on.
I think it's a bus that you Ride-on.
It is. Fact is, all buses are ride-ons. Its the runaway buses that you need to keep away from.
From
As a die-hard NYC Subway fan living in the Washington Metropolitan area, I think this article reflects my impressions on both NYC Subway and DC Metrorail.
This article's comparisons are fair. I can't agree more on it.
I enjoy riding DC Metrorail, but I love NYC Subway the most.
Chaohwa
"I enjoy riding DC Metrorail, but I love NYC Subway the most."
I feel the same way.
As a dyed-in-the-wool NYC Transit fan who has explored the DC Metro system extensively, I will have to agree with that point of view. These are two different animals. Each has something to offer, each has its drawbacks.
NYC is the standard-bearer; DC Metro the innovator. The only station in DC that even remotely resembles a NYC station is Anacostia. DC lacks many things that I find enjoyable in NYC; and NYC lacks some of the conveniences found in DC.
I DO get a bit of a thrill every time I'm on a DC Metro train and it kicks up some wheel noise...last good one was Breda 3046 northbound out of Columbia Heights.
Wayne
Roosevelt Island resembles slightly a DC metro station. Except that it has wall tiles and metal panels, it's mezzanine (pod) is above the vault and the fare control is in a surface level house.
I think 168th St on the 1/9 looks like a DC Metro station would if it were built 50 years earlier. That station has a real "Gotham" feel to it, if you ask me.
The "enigma" the article talks about is one of the main reasons I like the NY subway system. It's fun to wonder what happened at a particular place at some point. I like looking for abandoned tracks and stations and figure out where they went or what station it was.
I just downloaded the article and read it. It expresses many of my own sentiments. While I admire the DC Metro from a rider's and a tourist's sentiment, it lacks the rich history and character that New York (and the Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia systems) have because it was built as the city built. NY stations were built in unique styles - so that a new system would never have the mosaic station signs found in New York. It's always fun to point out locations where the system was changed over the years - witness standing on the north end of the shuttle platform at Times Sq and seeing where the original subway turned north, just as an uptown #1 swings by a couple of feet away.
I will be in DC next week and plan to do my share of railfanning - but I'll never tire of railfanning in New York.
The article writer left out two important points:
(1)While New York's $1.50 fare is still in effect, the $4 all day FunPass is a far better deal that DC's $5 day pass, which is only good after 9:30 am and iI don't beleive is good on the Metrobus system (somebody out there clarify this, please).
(2) The first New York subways started running 95 years ago (not 94, as noted), but most if it is actually of 1915-1940 vintage; and of course, there is an 1893 elevated stretch on the J train that is the oldest portion of the system still in use.
As a final comment, since the writer is from a Philadelphia paper, even SEPTA's and PATCO's lines are interesting and exhibit a character all their own. Example - when the eastbound Market Frankford train emerges from the tunnel goes right under the Ben Franklin Bridge, it's a really nice vista. And at the other end, the 69th Street terminal is a rail fan's delight.
Two points need underlining. One the DC Metro shuts down every night--opens Saturday @ 8 AM really useful for getting to work on time. Two despite the Day Pass, the fare structure is a rip-off and the money spent on the huge vaulted ceilings etc could have beemn better spent on more lines. The DC Metro suffers from a typical "Capial City showoff" syndrome--the overbuilt monumentalist architecture of headquarters buildings for multinational corporations and major government edifices.
DC people have had an entitlement mentallity and delusions of grandeur for a long time. When the Baltimore Orioles won the World Series back in 1979 the Washington Post declaired they really weren't a Baltimore team, they were actually a Washington team because they were winners. I think this was about the same time the government was demading the Boston Museum turn over portraits of George and Martha Washington for display in their rightful place of Washington, D.C.
That's the same type of mentallity that puts style over cost in their station designs. I'm sure the BMT and IRT could have designed every station to be as spacious as Chambers Street if they wanted to, but as private companies, they built their stations as cost-efficent as possible. If the IND had been pravately built, we probably wouldn't have gotten all those huge underused mezzanines.
Everything was done to appease congress
Two points need underlining. One the DC Metro shuts down every night--opens Saturday @ 8 AM really useful for getting to work on time. Two despite the Day Pass, the fare structure is a rip-off and the money spent on the huge vaulted ceilings etc could have beemn better spent on more lines. The DC Metro suffers from a typical "Capial City showoff" syndrome--the overbuilt monumentalist architecture of headquarters buildings for multinational corporations and major government edifices.
I used to live in DC, and I don't care much for the fare structure either.
But the barrel-vault stations were built partly because, at the time, it was *cheaper* to build them that way than to build a simpler-looking box station.
-- Tim
Actually, they have a sort of box-structure station at Anacostia (although it does have round vaults in the ceiling).
They've simplified the methods of constructing vaults. They used to pump concrete into forms (to create the "waffle" or coffered arch design), then to save money they resorted to the Arch I (four-coffered) and Arch II (six-coffered) designs, which are made of prefabricated panels, hauled into the naked tunnels a section at a time and erected.
The last underground station to be constructed, Congress Heights, will be of Arch II (Georgia Avenue-Petworth) design. I have seen a photograph of this partially-completed station.
Wayne
And at the other end, the 69th Street terminal is a rail fan's delight. You are so right. Where else can you see such a combination
of transit vehicles. Neoplan & AM busses, Kawasaki trolleys, Adrantz Norristown cars, and my all time favorite with the best "railfan window" of all - the M-4's !!!!!
Chuck Greene
"...and my all time favorite with the best "railfan window" of all - the M-4's !!!!!"
We can argue that.
If you like to sit and watch, you can only do that on the M-4.
But the ol' Almond Joys had a railfan window that opened!
I know it sounds trivial, but I liked that a lot.
I just read a most interesting article
"http://travel.phillynews.com/wkend/TRAM29.asp">
here.
Read it and then share your thoughts.
(Sorry if the link doesn't show up. WebTV stinks. I miss my Dell.)
Steve, I have WebTV and I've never had any problem putting a link on SubTalk. Just make sure in the html code there is just 1 space between a and href. For example click here for The Sarge, my homepage.
I heard a rumor that they may discontinue the 5 express service from 180th Street to 149th Street. Is this true?
We already discussed this. The 2 would be express during rush hours. The 5 to Neried would be express, but the 5 to Dyre would be local.
If there was a chat in the people connection for public transport, would you go to it? I'll check back Saturday Morning.
Absolutely! That would be a great way for railroad personel to get an insight on NYCTA and see how good their jobs really are. That would also allow me to brush up on my railroad rules, NORAC and other information, in case I decide to head for greener pastures. I would suggest a general transportation site with links to subdivisions such as air, rail, CDL and others. My only complaint is that AOL might sensor me for uttering the Strike word.
I would as well! It would be a great to have a forum for transit workers of all kinds.
I would absolutely not! I abhor, loathe, despise, detest, execrate and just plain hate AOSmell. If I am ever to drop my guard and find myself on the abominable channels of this (Damn, I ran out of adjectives) system, then I invite all of you to give me a stout whack on my head with a blunt object, or perhaps with the thesaurus used to construct this message.
AOL isn't bad if you're a couple of hundred miles out of town in a hotel and you have to upload something to a web site. Their local numbers save you the hassle of a long distance call to your ISP provider (no to mention the fact hotels charge about half your life savings for long distance). But the come-ons and the Internet for Dummies directions can get on your nerves.
AOL isn't bad if you're a couple of hundred miles out of town in a hotel and you have to upload something to a web site. Their local numbers save you the hassle of a long distance call to your ISP provider (no to mention the fact hotels charge about half your life savings for long distance). But the come-ons and the Internet for Dummies directions can get on your nerves.
There is a better alternative. Its called MSN. Its a true Internet Service with enough local phone numbers to call from anywhere. You dial up using Windows 98 Dial Up Networking like any other true ISP. also, MSN won't knock you offline as long as you have pinging software (which you can download from Tucows for free). Its also very rare that you get disconnected. You go offline when you choose to go offline. One more advantage - you can prepay for the year and pay only $189 for the year, which is only $15.75 per month. Otherwise it is $19.95. Its been a while since AOL was only $19.95 per month. I have AOL also, but I have a "Bring Your Own Access" account for $9.95 per month. I keep AOL fro 2 reasons - I started with AOL and I want to maintain the E-Mail addresses which I had since I first got on the Internet, and the 14 MB of web space that comes with it. I log onto AOL for only those 2 reasons - to check my E-Mail or to upload some file(s) to my web space. I wouldn't even use AOL's FTP client. It uploads only 1 file at a time. I use WS_FTP for all my uploading, whether AOL or Geocities. I use the ISP/LAN connecton (TCP/IP) to log onto AOL after getting connected to the Internet through MSN. When I get on the Internet, I dial up with my MSN dial up and open Internet Explorer. That's all I need. AOL is a good starter, which is what I used it for, but I've since graduated from that.
From
I have to agree with you. An AOL chat room is nothing but 12 year olds talking about everything else besides what the chat room subject is. If there was a transit chat room, good luck finding anyone actually talking about transit. I would never use AOL, everyone I know who has it hates it for one reason or another. I'm sticking to Mindspring, you get fast connections and there is never a busy signal.
Dave,
Have you ever considered setting up a chat room on this site? Just asking, considering the previous posts.
Kind Regards,
This is just like a chat room, only better because you could catch up on all the postings since you last were on.
I know -- this is great -- but I was interested in the option of real-time discussion, that's all. :-)
I don't have the server resources to support such a thing. If we wanted to have a scheduled real-time chat, there are plenty of IRC servers on which to do it. I doubt an unscheduled, random chat would draw much attention.
-Dave
1. Full Second Ave. Subway
2. Brand new 4-track Manhattan Bridge
3. The entire IND second system as propsed in 1929
4. LIRR to Grand Central
5. Open the IRT City Hall station as part of the Transit Museum
6. Extend the N to LaGuardia
7. Connection to JFK using the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch
...and a partridge in a pear tree!
>>>>1. Full Second Ave. Subway
2. Brand new 4-track Manhattan Bridge
3. The entire IND second system as propsed in 1929
4. LIRR to Grand Central
5. Open the IRT City Hall station as part of the Transit Museum
6. Extend the N to LaGuardia
7. Connection to JFK using the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch<<<
Your requests, in order of likelihood, from worst to best:
3, 7, 2, 5, 6, 1, 4
www.forgotten-ny.com
Why do you think 7 is bad?
No, no, none of them are bad ideas. My list is in order of LIKELIHOOD, as in the first number is least likely to happen, while the last number probably will happen. In our lifetimes? Who knows?
www.forgotten-ny.com
1. Full Second Ave. Subway
2. Brand new 4-track Manhattan Bridge
3. The entire IND second system as propsed in 1929
4. LIRR to Grand Central
5. Open the IRT City Hall station as part of the Transit Museum
6. Extend the N to LaGuardia
7. Connection to JFK using the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch
...and a partridge in a pear tree!
What? Do you think Santa is a magician? You would be lucky to get the partridge in the pear tree!
From
[What? Do you think Santa is a magician? You would be lucky to get the partridge in the pear tree!]
I figure I have a better chance of getting these by asking Santa, than by asking our local and state politicians!
[What? Do you think Santa is a magician? You would be lucky to get the partridge in the pear tree!]
I figure I have a better chance of getting these by asking Santa, than by asking our local and state politicians!
Why not ask Santa for better politicians? Ask Santa for politicians who are railfans.
From
Ahhh,. you forgot #8:
Electrification to Port Jeff, Speonk and Oyster Bay!!!!!!
and #9:
Third track to Hicksville, grade sepperated, express, with a MAS of 90 or 100.
Hey, we're all dreaming here, ain't we? :)
>>>Third track to Hicksville, grade sepperated, express, with a MAS of 90 or 100. <<<
Two tracks from Great Neck to Port Washington!
"Electrification to Port Jeff, Speonk and Oyster Bay!!!!!!"
If you electrified the diesel lines every train would be a boring M-3. As a railfan there is something exciting about locomotives, the sound of the whistle and the sound of their engine.
"Third track to Hicksville, grade separated, express, with a MAS of 90 or 100."
Keep the grade crossings, they are great to watch from the railfan window and lets face it, the structure on the Babylon line is extremely ugly!!!
I know what I'd like to see: faster trains. At least let them run faster on straightaways. In other words: bring back field shunting. Hey, if you can't bring back the R-10s.....
I was riding the 9:28 F out of Stillwell Ave. this morning. When we got to Kings Highway the train remained motioness for a few minutes. The conductor of our train took the time to yuk it up with a group of T/O's who were hitching a ride on an out-of -service F train in the center track. All of a sudden this woman starts yelling at the conductor to shut up and move the train out because she was late for work. This woman was totally out of line, as she assumed that the conductor was holding the train up so he could talk to his friends. The conductor made every attemp at being civil, even though he was being insulted. He calmly explained to her what "holding lights" were (that was the reason for the delay) and the fine art of "maintaining even spacing between trains". I thought she was totally out of line, and should've apologized for blaming him for something that he couldnt control.
Maybe you guys do deserve that raise after all.
I was riding the 9:28 F out of Stillwell Ave. this morning. When we got to Kings Highway the train remained motioness for a few minutes. The conductor of our train took the time to yuk it up with a group of T/O's who were hitching a ride on an out-of -service F train in the center track. All of a sudden this woman starts yelling at the conductor to shut up and move the train out because she was late for work. This woman was totally out of line, as she assumed that the conductor was holding the train up so he could talk to his friends. The conductor made every attemp at being civil, even though he was being insulted. He calmly explained to her what "holding lights" were (that was the reason for the delay) and the fine art of "maintaining even spacing between trains". I thought she was totally out of line, and should've apologized for blaming him for something that he couldnt control.
Maybe you guys do deserve that raise after all.
Some people are so stupid. The conductor has nothing to do with a train delay. Even if it was the T/O who was yacking it up, its still not his fault. What the idiot might have been able to understand would go something like "The train is stopped for a red light on the track. When it turns green, we will proceed. Sorry for the inconvenience, but it is beyond our control. Thank you for riding MTA".
From
12/24/99
Chris R,
Did the conductor make an announcement that the train was being held by supervision or anything similar?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I think he did, but before this woman got on the train.
Somehow, the usual TA anouncements never satisfy me. "Held by supervision" sounds like passing the buck. "Red signal" is only a partial explanation -- why is the red signal there.
"Attention, due to fewer people than expected holding the doors and delaying the train on this run, we are ahead of schedule, and will have to sit here until its time to go."
"Attetion, due to MORE people than expected holding the doors and delaying the train in front of us, we'll have to slow down so we don't rear end it."
"Attention, in case you haven't noticed, when you board a train at this time you end up waiting for the G to merge in EVERY SINGLE DAY."
While I do not justify ranting at the Conductor, as Larry points out, there is a credibility gap here. Asx passengers(in my current case in the Bay Area) we are subjected to delays on the MUNI all the time-mostly because the "train control system" is a disaster. As well however, even if the 'central control' bothers to tell the operator what's up, rarely do they bother to inform the passengers. The latent anger, because most of us are expected to show up somewhere reasonably close to on time and perform to someone else's tempo all day, are not amused by the perceived non-chalance of the transit workers. THIS is not a blanket concemnation of workers in any of the systems, but it is obvious that the bad apples are more than one per city
Or how about this, one of the great lies of our time: "There's a train directly behind this one." Though I do love the subway, as merely an everyday rider (as opposed to the many current and former transit workers who post here often), I find it amusing that they expect us to believe this vague attempt at reassurance!
The number of times I've heard this, it's always been true. Of course, sometimes it's not the train you wanted (ie, at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and you need a C; there's an A right behind it.)
-Hank
Changing to the F at Jay St, the train that's "directly behind" was often sent to run express. I used to like that. I'd just as soon have a quick ride to 7th Avenue and take a longer walk, but someone must have complained. No matter how late a train is, and no matter how many are behind, I haven't had an express in months.
I go Express at least Once a week do to door Holding.
Subway door holding is cognate to rubberneckers at highway accident scenes. Both hold up the parade.
Everyone complains, but it'll always go on because some people can't help themselves.
Subway door holding is cognate to rubberneckers at highway accident scenes. Both hold up the parade.
Everyone complains, but it'll always go on because some people can't help themselves.
The complainers complain until they get to the scene of the accident. Then, they gawk too. I'll take a quick glance for a second and keep going. What I didn't see in that one second, I don't care about. There's nothing like having your side of the expressway tied up to gridlock when the accident was on the opposite side. :-(
From
I think this may be because the Bergen St. interlocking was not fully repaired after the tower fire - the upper level, where the F and G merge, was fully reconstructed quickly; but the lower level, where the F switches from the express track to the ramp up to the local, was not - the switch was just locked in position to send all trains up the ramp to Bergen upper level. I'm not sure if repairs have been fully completed yet at this time, but if they have not, it is not possible to send an F express south of Jay Street until the Smith-Ninth interlocking.
subfan
Actually I've always assumed it to be true, however I've ALWAYS gotten on the first train so I've never found out if it was true or not. Remember "A bird in the hand..."
I guess it depends on the individual's definition of "directly behind." I've always tried to get on the "bird-in-the-hand" train too, but you just never know if the train "directly behind" is the one you want (i.e. an "R" when you need an "N") or whether that train is seconds behind or minutes behind, which makes a difference to a rush-hour commuter. It's also often just as packed as the first one anyway, which doesn't help. I was actually pointing out that the information was vague, not necessarily that the phrase is a blatant "lie." No offense was intended, of course.
12/24/99
How about "Ladies and gentlemen sorry for the delay we have congestion ahead". Congestion !!, since when does the subway have bronchitis !!
Bill Newkirk
You never want to hear "Good Evening ladies and gentlemen" on a subway, and you almost bever want to hear "Conductor go to Channel 4" on a LIRR train. Both mean something's up to no good...
Somehow, the usual TA anouncements never satisfy me. "Held by supervision" sounds like passing the buck. "Red signal" is only a partial explanation -- why is the red signal there.
When you're talking about simple minds, "Red Signal" is all that's necessary to convey the message. Anything more elaborate will only confuse a person with a simple mind. Think of the explanation you would give a 5-year-old. That's the kind of explanation this particular passenger needed.
From
Somehow, the usual TA anouncements never satisfy me. "Held by supervision" sounds like passing the buck. "Red signal" is only a partial explanation -- why is the red signal there.
...
"Attention, in case you haven't noticed, when you board a train at this time you end up waiting for the G to merge in EVERY SINGLE DAY."
Do you want to explain interlocking safety timeouts and the finer points of train scheduling to the average moron..er..passenger? Detailed explanations are useful to railfans and off-duty transit workers, but would leave most passengers hopelessly confused.
P.S. Take a look at the uk.railway FAQ's A-Z of excuses for some examples of really creative delay announcements.
Some of those are quite amusing, especially "We're lost".
Chris, with all your anti union and anti raise posts before the strike it only took this one incident to change your mind???
No. I was being humorous. I wanted to point out that this conductor behaved in a proper way in this situation. Nobody in his right mind would justify a raise for thousands for workers simply based on one incident, and one person.
There is always a train directly behind you, they never tell you how far behind though. The train hasn't even left Stilwell in some cases.
This past week i was cleaning up my room & i found old 1978 subway map service are diffirent than now. Check out the schedules in 1978 subway map. Next Stop "IND" & "BMT".
There sure found a way to make the #4's southern terminal a real confusing affair. Utica, Flatbush, or Atlantic? Better check your watch to find out where it's going.
There sure found a way to make the #4's southern terminal a real confusing affair. Utica, Flatbush, or Atlantic? Better check your watch to find out where it's going.
It was dependent on many factors, including time of day, the outside temperature, which direction the wind was blowing, and who's on first, what's on second and I don't know is on third! :-)
From
There sure found a way to make the #4's southern terminal a real confusing affair. Utica, Flatbush, or Atlantic? Better check your watch to find out where it's going.
It was dependent on many factors, including time of day, the outside temperature, which direction the wind was blowing, and who's on first, what's on second and I don't know is on third! :-)
"I'll break your arm, you say 'Who's on First!!!'" - Lou Costello
-Hank
It wasn't as confusing as it sounds. A general rule of thumb was: 4 trains ran to Flatbush Ave. when the 3 wasn't running; to Utica Ave. during rush hours and weekends; and to Atlantic Ave. during midday hours on weekdays.
The 4 ran to Flatbush Ave during part of the rush hours. After 9AM to about 10 AM and all evening after 7PM the #4 ran to Utica Ave. that can get really confusing. As it is today, it's simpler, with only the 3 and 4 going to Utica/New Lots and the other lines going to Flatbush.
Gee - that's pretty specific. Most of the maps from the 50s and 60s used to say something like "Utica Ave., Atlantic Ave. or South Ferry" without specifying times.
In those days, you watched the destination signs on the downtown Lexington Ave. expresses if you were headed to Brooklyn. You skipped the "South Ferry" trains, and if you got an "Atlantic Ave." train, you transferred to a local (No. 2 or 3 train) at Nevins St.
-- Ed Sachs
For a while, some station signs had exact times that certain trains ran. I remember that on the 4th Ave. local in the 1980's, they specified the EXACT minutes of the first and last Nassau St. RR special to arrive at a certain station.
They just don't stick to those schedules like they used to.
-Hank
I remember when the uptown platforms at stations on the Lexington Ave. express (4,5) had signs which featured charts showing the times of the first and last #5 trains on weekdays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Nowadays, they probably figure that a majority of riders couldn't even understand such a chart. (I think they could... but perhaps a relatively thin majority!)
The immediate post-Christie St. signs also featured exact times for services like the NX, QB, and (as noted) the Nassau St. RR specials. None of them, though, was in tabular form like the old IRT signs.
I remember when the uptown platforms at stations on the Lexington Ave. express (4,5) had signs which featured charts showing the times of the first and last #5 trains on weekdays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Nowadays, they probably figure that a majority of riders couldn't even understand such a chart. (I think they could... but perhaps a relatively thin majority!)
The immediate post-Christie St. signs also featured exact times for services like the NX, QB, and (as noted) the Nassau St. RR specials. None of them, though, was in tabular form like the old IRT signs.
Doesn't the TA provide that information on their current maps and on their web site? I don't have a current paper map, but I imagine the one on their web site suffices.
From
There are indeed timetables on the web site, and they are also available in "take one" racks near the change booths at a number of stations.
But the maps, and the signs in stations, use terms like "rush hours", "middays", "evenings", "late nights", etc. Never specific times. I think somewhere on the map there is text which gives "approximate" definitions of these terms.
But the maps, and the signs in stations, use terms like "rush hours", "middays", "evenings", "late nights", etc. Never specific times. I think somewhere on the map there is text which gives "approximate" definitions of these terms.
Isn't the TA specific about what time all these occur at? I believe rush hour is 7-9 AM and 4-6 PM; evenings is 6-11 PM; middays are between rush hours - 9 AM - 4 PM; and late nights is 11 PM - 6 AM. If I'm wrong about any of the times, I'm sure I'm in the ballpark. For those who know the correct times, there shouldn't be any confusion about service.
From
Even though the color scheme was to many quite confusing, I frankly preferred the 1967-78 scheme to that used after 1979. Hopefully, one day, I can clue you in on the Pantone PMS colors (or their equivalent) for each colors (being that I once worked as a printer’s apprentice).
Check this IND & BMT 1978 subway map.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all Sub & Bus Buffs Fan.
My own Polo Grounds Shuttle page on Forgotten NY can be found here:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/9thavel/9Ave.html
Thanks, Kevin, for your wonderful pictures re: the Forgotten Polo Grounds Shuttle... A page that Polo Grounds Shuttle fans should not miss!
Seasons Greetings to all ...
Morton Belcher
WOW!
Thanks, Kevin,
That is one great page. You've covered just about everything that can possibly still be seen.
Isn't it ironic that some of the most extensive survival of a Manhattan el is there only because it ran in a subway?
Kevin ... very nicely done.
(On the 16th, this time, please join us in the tunnel when we do it again! :)
--Mark
>>>(On the 16th, this time, please join us in the tunnel when we do it again! :) <<
I was worried about being killed and spraining my ankle, in that order.
>>>(On the 16th, this time, please join us in the tunnel when we do it again! :) <<
I was worried about being killed and spraining my ankle, in that order.
If you get killed, I don't think you're going to feel it when you sprain your ankle. besides, I heard that 20 people came for the one on 12/19. I don't think any gang is going to mess with 20 people.
From
12/25/99
"I don't think any gang is going to mess with 20 people"
You mean 20 unpredictable railfans !!
Merry Christmas
Bill Newkirk
12/24/99
Years back, maybe around 1980, I remember seeing Transit Police at certain key locations (i.e. Times Square) patroling with german shepard K-9 unit dogs. Is this practice still in effect?
Bill Newkirk
it is on greyhound ( bus system tnat is).......
But shouldn't they be using Greyhounds instead of German Shepherds?
But shouldn't they be using Greyhounds instead of German Shepherds?
they need to put Depity Dawg on patrol in the subway. 30 days in jail!
From
I've seen K9 units at Court Street (Brooklyn) many a time.
12/24/99
We are upon the eve of the last Christmas of the millenium.
WISHING ALL WHO CELEBRATE.....A VERY SAFE AND MERRY CHRISTMAS !!
Now! Have you been good this year!!
Bill Newkirk
Define 'good'........Actually, I truly wanted to second that idea...Its always a blast coming on here and reading what everyones up to.. HUGE THANKS to Dave, for maintaining and always upgrading this INCREDIBLE site ..(still think you could sell hats and shirts and not insult anyone...) And heres wishing peace,love and joy for all the SubTalkers for this holiday , and for the coming New Year. Lets try for some more trips next year,HUH??? (actually if try enough trips, I MIGHT actually get to do one again!) HO....HO...HO...
Merry Christmas from Chicago!
Merry Xmas to all! May your subways always run on time and into the dreaded year of 2000!
Chuck Greene
Merry Christmas from Miami!
Merry Christmas from Atlanta!
MERRY CHRISTMAS FROM BROOKLYN!!!!!
Yeah! (You get my e-mail?)
--Mark
Merry Christmas from Rockland County, NY!
--Mark
merry chrismas and happy year 2000 from new jersey
I just want to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And Peace On Earth. From Queens New York.
Merry Christmas from West Babylon NY 11704!
Wayne
Merry Christmas from St. Louis!
MERRY CHRISTMAS from Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Merry Christmas from Baltimore.
question when did this bigot ever ride the MARTA RAIL SYSTEM IN ATLANTA??
i mean why make racist cvomments of and about one of the most beautiful rail systems to ride on the flushing # 7 irt in new york??
did this redneck cracker ever ride his own ATLANTA GEORGIA MARTA
RAIL AND BUS SYSTEM in his home city and state in atlanta georgia??
and if so when ??? or how about the los angeles metro rail system here ??
i think john rocker is like a lot of white haters everywhere!!!
especially those who hate rail and bus transit and think of it as
BLACK OWNED AND OPERATED ??? give me a break!!!
no dont firte him!!! trade him to new york and then force him to ride the number 7 train he could even railfan on it !! ha! ha!! hA!
This is a little thing someone sent me a few weeks ago:
Dear White fella,
There are a couple of things you should know:
When I'm born, I'm black.
When I grow up, I'm black.
When I go in the sun, I'm black.
When I'm cold, I'm black.
When I'm scared, I'm black.
And when I die, I'm still black.
You, White fella:
When you're born, you're pink.
When you grow up, you're white.
When you go in the sun, you're red.
When you're cold, you're blue.
When you're scared, you're yellow.
When you're sick, you're green.
And when you die, you're grey.
And you have the ****in' nerve to call me COLORED????
This will be my last post on this subject. Back to the Subways!!!
Umm...
Have you found anyone on this forum that agrees with John Rocker, and merits this mildly diverting diatribe?
Umm...
Have you found anyone on this forum that agrees with John Rocker, and merits this mildly diverting diatribe?
Yeah! Right?!!
Most everybody on SubTalk, including myself have blasted John Rocker to kingdom come for his racist, bigoted redneck mentality. The a--hole is probably a card-carrying member of the KKK. Personally, I take offense to any racist comments, whether its White against Black,
or Black against White. Bashing any ethnic group is offensive and disgusting to me. There's no place for it - here on SubTalk or anywhere else. We do NOT need any racially-motivated hatred on this board.
From
i agree especially some i said SOME
subtalkers who respond to some of our posts with racist e mail like i
recieve many times AND
post harrassing off topic posts etc..
as for mr macon county georgia
JOHN ROCKER BASEBALL
PITCHER FOR THE ATLANTA
BRAVES recent comments & bigoted interview i will say this
I found the georgia people of macon georgia to be a peaceful kind
polite people !!! i spent some time down there and found more racists in atlanta on the marta heavyrail
train!!
dont fire him but it would be justice to trade him to the METS
and or the YANKEES
and i am glad the YANKEES beat the braves in a sweep !!!
let him ride the beautiful flushing line #7 and railfan!!!
maybe he would enjoy it !!!
has he ever rode the rail system in atlanta ?? the train does ride CLOSE
to turner field in atlanta !!
( i remember where fulton county stadium was ) ********
dont fire him but it would be justice to trade him to the METS
and or the YANKEES
He should be traded to the Japanese League. Then, he'll be the foreigner among all those Oriental people that he can't stand.
From
Brian Lamb was taking some calls from Georgia and elsewhere on C SPAN this morning and you'd be amazed how many people are speaking up for Rocker and to some degree, even agree with him. Steve Malzberg on WABC was carrying his brief yesterday...
And, of course, they're wrong.
Brian Lamb was taking some calls from Georgia and elsewhere on C SPAN this morning and you'd be amazed how many people are speaking up for Rocker and to some degree, even agree with him. Steve Malzberg on WABC was carrying his brief yesterday...
And, of course, they're wrong.
I can't believe how stupid some people can be. OTOH, wasn't Clinton reelected!
From
Randy, GOOD ONE
Click right here for a holiday message from me and my family.
Happy Holidays to all!
I happened to be watching the movie "A Christmas Story" yesterday, and I noticed a scene in the movie (when the family goes out to buy their Christmas tree) that shows 2 or 3 PCC's running down the street in the background. I tried to watch the credits, but I could not ascertain in what city the scene may have been filmed. Does anyone know where this scene was filmed or whose PCC's they were? The movie was made in 1983.
Peter... It was probably filmed in Toronto. They used to shoot lots of films there because of the low costs involved as opposed to New York. There were still lots of PCCs running there at that time.
Carl M.
The film was to have taken place in Cleveland, Ohio in the late '40's. The Higbees (now Kaufman's)dept store where the Santa scene was in Public Square next door to Terminal Tower. I did the Santa thing in Higbees a few times, but it wasn't as nearly traumatic as in the movie hehehehe.
For the money they spent on the movie they coulda painted a couple of the PCC's in old Cleveland colors temporarily (and could've used a few real Cleveland Peter Witt cars from nearby Trolleyville and SHRT instead of the TTC car they had to have hauled into Public Square too). IT WAS A GREAT MOVIE NONETHELESS.
Didja catch the scene with the carhouse yard in the background too?
I believe that the carhouse yard is Wychwood Car House, on Wychwood Lane, south of St. Clair Avenue. By 1983 the carhouse was closed, and being used to store PCC's that were displaced by the new CLRV's prior to dispostition. That's why the yard in the scene is stuffed with cars.
Also, I suspect that the back of a Witt in an early scene is a Hollywood mock-up built for the scene. It's too low to the ground to be the real thing.
Trolleyville has Center Door cars (CRYs 1200 class), but no Witts (CRys/CTS 300/s, 400's & 4000's). They all went to the torch in the 1950's and none were saved.
Thanks for the info on the TTC carhouse.
There was a CTS 4000 series car saved by a local enthusiast and stored in his backyard in (I think) Lorain. The car lasted into the '60's, but disintergrated when the crane crew picked it up to move it. Oh, the Ohio winters and snow does wonders on steel!
Too bad Shaker didn't get the articulated 5000's to work on the Terminal Tower loop.
Jan
Jan:
Thanks for the response. I'm not sure, are you saying they did film that particular scene in Cleveland, and merely resurrected the streetcar line for the movie? I've done some asking around, and the cream-with-red-stripe cars in that scene are Toronto's colors, I understand.
Also, what were the PCC colors on the cars that ran in Cleveland, and what does TTC stand for? And SHRT (Shaker Heights Rapid Transit, perhaps)?
The only PCC's I've seen up-close and personal have been in Philly at the Elmwood carhouse. Some there are painted in the old PTC color scheme (lower half green, upper half cream with a red stripe mid) and some actually are in SEPTA livery. They also have a Peter Witt there which I had occasion to ride on a fantrip last month.
Also, if you feel like writing more, I've always wondered what Cleveland's rail transit is like now. I understand they have something called "The RAPID." I've always been interested, but I've only visited Cleveland a couple of times. Sorry, I know this is a lot to ask, but I'm curious, and others are too, I bet. Happy Holidays!
TTC stands for Toronto Transit Commission
According to the Internet Movie Database, Christmas Story, A (1983) was filmed in Cleveland, Ohio, USA, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada and Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
--Mike
I think it was with Doug recently, that I was
talking about conductor-motorman comraderie, and I
remember him saying that the motormen stick together
and the conductors stick together. Is that so? I
remember a couple of years ago, when I would be
riding up front on the R-68's, I would frequently
hear the two talking to each other on their private
intercom. Things seemed kind of relaxed between the
people.
Recently, there was a thread discussing a conductor
who pulled the cord and reported to command center a
train operator who had failed to make a station stop
and was going through a second one. Is there more
of a natural having to protect one's rear end that
is creating a rift between crew members? Has
OPTO also created tensions between the two?
It's a people job. And it goes with people problems. Some crews get along and others don't. OPTO certainly didn't help any. I think if anything the IC has made it more of a team thing.
Eric --- You said that if anything, you thought
that the IC has made it more of a team thing.
I'm at a loss for what IC means?
Internal conflict
Internal combustion
Intestinal cramps
International communists
Inter course
Intellectually challenged
Irritating customers
Insulting conditions
Impersonal computers
Ideologically correct
IC == Intercom. It's the feature present on R44s and up
where the motorman and conductor can talk to each over via
the PA system, but without it being heard by the passengers.
Thanks Jeff.
Not that it isn't obvious, but just further proof that I'm losing it. I even mentioned the intercom in my original post, but did not connect that with IC.
Try laying off the valium.....
You forgot integrated circuit, which is what I associate IC with. Oh and how about Illinois Central?
I think OPTO causes for a split between train conductors and motormen. The ones who picked OPTO got into agruments more often with the conductors who were bounced. We have to work together for 8 hours a day, sometimes more. It is great to have someone you enjoy working with. I don't find myself hanging out with train operators in crew rooms as I do with my own conductor. In the railroads, you had to meet with your train crew before your day commenced. You are required to confer over the bulletin orders, rules and today's restaurant menus at Trenton. At least as far as train service is concerned, there is less bias or harrassment in my observation of operating crews performing their duties than there was when I hired. I can't prove it is because the TA must provide training regarding sexual harrassment or race discrimination but that may be a factor. The IC doesn't make a big difference in improving relations between operating crews, if there is no chemistry, we would only use it if and when we have to. The last time I worked with Eric, we were non-stop chatter. That is how we work when I go to his home for an occasional shopgate dinner. We are friends on and off the job. But you must be professional on the job as well. If any conductor can do that, I can live happily.
Harry, I didn't know that you and Eric had worked together. It's interesting hearing that you talked
together non-stop on the IC. That must make the job a lot more bearable. I think Eric once remarked that he didn't like the idea of being cut off from the people if he were to work as a train operator. It seems that the train operator is very isolated and cut off from other people. I guess working with a close friend as your conductor must be really great. Correct me if I am wrong, but when you're on the intercom, it plays through in every cab? I think I've heard train crews talking from cabs that weren't occupied. If so, I guess that must affect how openly you can talk.
It does. On R-68's or on the IRT R-62's we keep quiet. on
a large ten car train there are twenty IC's and only two
are in use. You never know if someone is in one of the
other 18. Or on an R-68, 16 and 12. Linking has solved
this problem as now only the end and two center cabs have
the PA/IC hardware in them.
To complicate matters, only the R-44 and 46 have secure
IC's. The other cars have a tendency to put IC messages
over the PA. That can be real embarrasing:
"Yo partner"
"yeah"
"did you see the one at the second car? What a set of*$%!"
"yeah amazing"
That kind of conversation is incredibly common amongst
crews. It's also the kind that will get you in deep doo
doo if it's over the PA. The R-44/46's don't do that, and
you only have to worry about the last car. I go back there
and cut out the IC breaker on them before my trip. Only
those cars can do that anyhow. The rest have a COMM/PA
breaker. Cut it out and you get no PA either, so you're
stuck.
The R-44's Harold I and used for a week last time we worked
together functioned OK. We talked and chatted all night.
It's something else to get to work with a long time
friend. We've known each other since mid 1987, and that's
the first time we actually got paid to work together after
all we've done.
Great thrill. I may even pick a job with him next pick if
things turn out right.
I've been on 68's that the crew "forgot" what they were on, PA or IC. Intresting insights to operations too.
"Joe, did you here what the *&*&% Command said"
"Err Mike, your on PA"....
I know I'm better off working on equipment with a IC.It's usually very hard to communicate with a conductor via the radio.Sometimes they're not paying attention.
That's true, we don't normally have the volume up because it will interfere with our PA system announcements. Many times I have mine on but aren't paying attention because of that, and I rely on the motorman to let me know of anything important.
Tell the truth I'd rather stay off the thing. Control is not a nice group of people to talk to.
I try to keep off the radio as much as possible, especially if a certain person is on the B2 on the P.M.
The dude with the Jamaican accent? Mr. Lowe is the name if
you didn't know. I know he's a bit coarse. The worst is
the lady on the BMT East working PM's.
One night a conductor called for an ambulance and police
after she had been assaulted and robbed at Livonia Av. on
the L. The control console dispatcher had some nerve! The
woman at control asked: "Conductor, did the assailant take
your keys? Can you stay in service?"
So the conductor responded: "Control. I am bleeding and
require medical attention! He took my bag not my keys"
After a pause the console dispatcher comes back: "OK
signal en-route for police assistance"
Serious about safety eh?
Eric--- what would have happened if the conductor had a cell phone and called 911 directly and refused to close the doors. I would suppose they would be brought up on charges. Has that ever happened? Would carrying a cell phone be grounds for being brought up on charges?
As long as I am asking questions, do you know what voltage the subway signal system operates on? thanks paul .
Cell phone possesion isn't regulated, and the TA knows they couldn't legally anyhow. Usage is and it's prohibitted when you're operating the train. If that conductor had called 911 from a cell or a pay phone the TA couldn't do anything about it. It's a basic civil right to ask for and reccieve medical assistance. The TA in not providing it merely opens a door for lawsuits but not to criminal charges.
Signals operate on varying voltages depending on where within the system we're talking about. It's all relatively low AC. The Williamsburg bridge's new signals I have seen installed operate on standard 120 60Hz. The track circuits themselves are transformed down to 5 volts AC for the vital relays. This is not my strong area and what I am telling you could be corrected by Dave, Mr. Train Control.
He knows a great deal more than I, he's a signal engineer for some twenty odd years.
Paul, keep in mind that cell phones may not work in many underground environs, so they are unreliable at best in subway emergencies.
Doug aka BMTman
Speaking of which my 8:42 Stillwell D had a Guard Light misbeahving at Prospect Park. I'm in the first car and could not use my cell phone. Out on the platform towards the rear of the train it worked fine.
Possibly, this sounds like the same lady. She would do something like that.I think they bounce around to different sections.
Paul, just as a general observation I notice that at terminal stations, the various conductors will hangout and BS with their fellow conductors, while the T/Os will go and do the same with their brethren. It's almost like some kind of self imposed segregation.
But of course things vary between individual personalities as we all well know.
Doug aka BMTman
Paul, just as a general observation I notice that at terminal stations, the various conductors will hangout and BS with their fellow conductors, while the T/Os will go and do the same with their brethren. It's almost like some kind of self imposed segregation.
But of course things vary between individual personalities as we all well know.
Some TA personnel are railfans and some are not. To the ones who are not, its just a job.
From
If John Rocker is penalized, it should be for an amount in the 6 figures. Anything less, would be peanuts to him. I'm talking about a $700,000 fine. It would teach him to keep his mouth shut!! The only reason he talked about NY the way he did is b/c the Yanks swuped his team.
P.S. What's up with all that twitching he does
If John Rocker is penalized, it should be for an amount in the 6 figures. Anything less, would be peanuts to him. I'm talking about a $700,000 fine. It would teach him to keep his mouth shut!! The only reason he talked about NY the way he did is b/c the Yanks swuped his team.
No. He's just a nasty obnoxious person. He was saying nasty things about New York and its fans even while the Braves were playing the Mets in the playoffs. He won't be fined, even though he should be. As long as he minds his P's and Q's with the umps, he won't be fined. He should be fined because he is a disgrace to Baseball. He's not exactly the kind of sports idol anyone would want their kids to look up to.
From
Isn't there something called the first amendment.
Major League Baseball has the right to fine players and other team employees as well as team owners who bring disrepute upon the game. The most famous example of this is when they forced the moronic anti semitic shiksa Marge Schott to sell the Cincinnati Reds. Bye, Marge, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
You are right he can say what he wants if he is not employed and that may be the answer. For a pitcher one good injury could end his career any day. ( Not soon enough )
I hope the league and Ted Truner don't put up with this but the current commissioner does not seem to have what it takes to keep the game in line.
trade him to the mets !! then he hsa to railfan the # 7 line!!
Most of the Mets live in Port Washington and take the LIRR. Besides, all theses guys can afford to be driven in limos if they want. It's the poor slobs who pay $35 a ticket to watch these spoiled brat millionaires play who ride the #7. (I happen to like that line. It's my favorite on the system).
the number seven line # 7 is my favorite !! my late grandmother and i used to ride the #7 together the first car r 12
rail fan front window !! maybe if john rocker rode the railfan window ?? hold your breath !!!
Jon Olerud was known to have occasionally ridden the #7 to work as a Met. Why? It was the fastest means of getting to Shea! New Yorkers understand this. This is why we still have rail transit on the grand scale that we do. Unfortunately, Mr. Olerud has been traded, so we're apt to see more Limos again next year.
Incidentally, Atlanta is in the Top 5 most traffic-congested cities in the U.S. but can't convince enough of its citizens to abandon their precious automobiles even for a second. Transit and urban planning issues fail there regularly.
Maybe if more central-Georgians rode subways, products like John Rocker would become fewere and farther between. We can only hope.
I think John Olerud was one of the few Mets who lived in Manhattan. He was not traded, he left as a free agent. About a month before he signed with Seatle, I read that he had not released his apartment, so it was clear the Mets were not going to resign him.
Maybe if more central-Georgians rode subways, products like John Rocker would become fewere and farther between. We can only hope.
Hear, hear. The subways really are the "gorgeous mosaic" in action, every single day. And despite complaints of noisy high schoolers, door holders, rude passengers, etc. ....
... I maintain that the subways show New Yorkers at their VERY politest. Think about the subtle dance where someone mumbles "sorry" if they brush or poke you, even in the middle of a completely crowded rush-hour car.
Whenever I take visitors into the subways (and I try to do so as often as I can!), they're amazed at how well it all works. They HATE the noise, esp. at Union Square (curved rails), but find the rest of it impressive and awesome.
Worth us keeping in mind even as we complain!
I don't think there are any subways in Georgia. But then again, the Soviets were really big on building subways, so perhaps there is one in Tbilisi.
Oh wait, wrong Georgia.
I don't think there are any subways in Georgia. But then again, the Soviets were really big on building subways, so perhaps there is one in Tbilisi.
Oh wait, wrong Georgia.
Are you forgetting the MARTA system in Atlanta?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Atlanta isn't in that Georgia.
Atlanta isn't in that Georgia.
Yup.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, but I know of a girl named "Marta" in Soviet Georgia.
I thought they installed "Net Nanny" on the patrol car computers :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
trade him to the mets !! then he has to railfan the # 7 line!!
Isn't there something called the first amendment.
there are some instances where the First Amendment doesn't apply. Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is one. Threatening co-workers on your job is another. Making a bad name for Baseball by being a bad influence on our kids that idolize sports heros by promoting hatred and bigotry is yet another.
From
There is a first amendment. Nobody has called for his arrest or to be fined by the government.
trade him to the METS or YANKEES!! then he has to ride the....
NEW YORK SUBWAY TO WORK !!!!
that would teach him a lesson !! and in YANKEE TERRITORRY!!!
hooray!!! ha!! ha !! ha !!
A happy Christmas/happy Holidays to all residents of Subtalk, and a vandal-, criminal- and terrorist-free Christmas and New Year's.
Happy Christmas!
I was doing some holiday shopping (last minute as usual -- that's why they call me the 'Dashing Doug').
Anyhow, I was in Hoyt-Schermerhorn when a C train pulled into the station. Low and behold, the conductor was sporting a classic Santa hat! That was really a fun sight. Alot of people got a smile out of it and I even gave a 'Ho, Ho, Ho' when the conductor's car came into view as the train departed.
Then I my A train arrived. I was riding in the first car (enjoying a railfan friendly R-38). When I got off at B'way/ENY I did a double-take on the T/Os window as the guy poked his head out, waved and wished his departing passengers a very merry Christmas! That was a great pick-me-up to a tiring day 'in the trenchs' at Fulton Mall.
Oh....BTW....MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!
Doug aka BMTman
Why am I always being blocked? First, I didn't care as I would work around it by changing my access number. But now, this is getting insane. I haven't posted anything bad and I continue to get blocked. I have to access the system through LYNX now.
Currently, anyone who usually posts from Mindspring out of NY is blocked.
This includes me. Fortuneately, I can borrow access.
-Hank
I use Earthlink, since they are near merger with Mindspring, that explains it. I have to connect throught my school's network to post. Since school is out right now, I have to go through Telnet and use Lynx, although I still read through IE.
Why has Mindspring been blocked? That's my PC ISP....
I think the blocking involves Level3.net, the node provider for Mindspring and Earthlink. I tracked my IP, it's on newyork.level3.net. Salaam Allah is on losangeles.level3.net.
Also, I seem to be unblocked now.
you are so nosy !!!! what about the racist hate e mail SOME
of you send to me and to CHENS SUBWAY PAGE etc...
why dont some of you respect the privacy of others like most of us do!!
stick to rail transit topics worldwide!! do not post harassing posts aimed at presons of color religion race etc.
then it is possible to exchange RAIL TRANSIT INFORMATION
not personal attcaks . worry about blocking etc what is this
about?? is it on the topic of RAIL SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE ???!!
The reason I looked up your originating IP is because YOU are the only person to whom I directed inflammatory rhetoric that could have caused blocking. When you post, you open up your IP Address for others to see, you want to keep your ISP hidden, don't post.
I never sent any e-mail to you or CHENS SUBWAY PAGE. Nor did ANYONE on this board but you ever express any racism, just check out the John Rocker thread.
Oh yes, and the blocking is on topic. If I'm blocked, I can't make any posts about RAIL SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE.
*well chen and i compared block address return and it did match SOME OF YOU PERSONS out there
and harassing posts and off topic posts are not about rail
transit worldwide !! i agree with chens subway page about this !00% !!! why are you so nosy about someones isp number??
what does looking up isp numbers have to do with being on topic about rail transit systems world wide !!??
i disagree 100 % about waht you said !!!
You disagree? Fine. You're posting on a public system. That means any and everything you do while on this system is open for others to do with what they please. Every message posted leaves the IP address of the person who posted it. All one needs to do is go to a whois site and punch it in, and they discover the ISP you belong to. With a little further investigating, and usually a court order, your ISP can identify the user ID that was using that IP address at the specific date and time; the ISP I used to work for kept a log for about 10 days usage. From your user ID, it's just a few short steps to your address, phone number, and having YOUR ISP block your access to the internet, for violating their TOS. This is how the Feds catch computer criminals. Your IP address is your fingerprint on the internet.
-Hank
thats what i am saying!!!
posts should be on the topic of rail systems worls-wide!!
and not these insults harrassing racist post responses if you
cant say something nice dont say nothing at all !!!!
this should be an information exchange on topic !!!
i am still looking for someone who has rode the subway
system in mexico city mexico !!!
hope fully with a picture of thier subway cars !!!!
NO! You do not agree, all that Hank Eisenstein did is elaborate on what I said. You agree with what he said and not with what I said? You contradict yourself more often than the Bible.
how did hank eisenstein elaborate with you on what???
does not make sense with your last post !!
how did he agree with you on any level??
the bible contridictions ???
another one of your OFF WORLD WIDE RAIL TRANSIT, non subjects!!
he elaborated with you ??? what ?????? !!!!!!
\
When we checked your IP info, this is what came back-
EarthLink Network, Inc. (NETBLK-EARTHLINK-NET)
3100 New York Dr.
Pasadena, CA 91107
Netname: EARTHLINK-NET
Netblock: 209.178.0.0 - 209.178.191.255
Maintainer: ERTH
Coordinator:
Earthlink Network, Domain Administrator (DAE4-ARIN) @CORP.EARTHLINK.NET
626-296-2400 (FAX) 626-296-5113 (FAX) 626-296-5113
Domain System inverse mapping provided by:
DNS1.EARTHLINK.NET 207.217.126.11
DNS2.EARTHLINK.NET 207.217.126.12
DNS3.EARTHLINK.NET 207.217.120.13
Record last updated on 22-Apr-1999.
Database last updated on 24-Dec-1999 17:23:22 EDT.
thats what i am saying!!!
posts should be on the topic of rail systems worls-wide!!
and not these insults harrassing racist post responses if you
cant say something nice dont say nothing at all !!!!
this should be an information exchange on topic !!!
i am still looking for someone who has rode the subway
system in mexico city mexico !!!
hope fully with a picture of thier subway cars !!!!
*well chen and i compared block address return and it did match SOME OF YOU PERSONS out there
and harassing posts and off topic posts are not about rail
transit worldwide !! i agree with chens subway page about this 100% !!! why are you so nosy about someones isp number??
what does looking up isp numbers have to do with being on topic about rail transit systems world wide !!??
i disagree 100 % about waht you said !!!
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!
To all my railfan colleagues, have yourself a very merry Christmas and to those of who do not celebrate this day, please have a very happy holiday. It's been great being a part of this group this year and I'm hoping for many more years of enjoyment on this website. I won't spoil the occasion by mentioning my opinion of John Rocker but will reserve that for another day. Again, have a great day.
Ditto.
I went to check on the R142s since SubTalk was flooded with posts regarding their arrivals. What did I come up with? Actually, I didn't gain anything. I went to 239th St Yard to see if there was anything peculiar, but to no avail. I found some other stuff. A diesel and a straight electric were coupled together by a flat car on the upper deck of the yard, while the lower deck had a solo diesel on a track against the barn wall. The barn itself was locked up, so I couldn't see anything. There was a strange sight. The R110As were in storage with a pair of elderly mainline R33s protecting the front of the train!!! It's one of those strange things.
Three questions about 239th St Yard: I can't see how the Kawasaki units could be unloaded at the Yard. I know there's an opening at a gate near Barnes Ave. Is this where they get unloaded? There's no evidence of a subway car ramp, or even a crane for lifting the cars. What gives? This might be in my opinion, the most unlogical place to deliver new cars. Why not 207th St Yard?
Secondly, the cars that were wrecked on the yard lead last February are still sitting in the same place on track 10 since the Lo-V Fan Trip on 9/27/98. I wonder why the Superintendent hasn't cleared the yard? Several years ago, the yard was flocked with old cars. Then in one fell swoop, they all disappeared. R12 5704, R15 5992, and others were all gone. Even an R17 Redbird (6623)!!!! I never get enough of the old stuff. Certainly, the cars in the accident aren't being held for litigation, since there wasn't anybody on the train at the time of the accident. They are not coming back to service, so I figure they'd be towed to the scrap line at 207th St and eventually down into Brooklyn.
Third: Has anybody ever wondered why the yard has such an unusual configuration? This is the only yard that I know where a train goes north, swings west at 241th St, and then goes south to the Bumping Block in the vicinity of Nereid Av. Why is that?
I believe Bombardier Units 6301-05 are here (in the Bronx), as is 6311 and 6312 (207th St). A friend reports seeing the local freight at Fresh Pond Freight Yard with 7 flats for what had been used to deliver the units. Where's 6313,14, and 15? The Kawasaki Units are here? I did not see them through the glass at East 180th St on a cold Thursday Night. Whatever's going on, I hope to see both sets of cars. I'll tell you when I see them. Shop crews are probably taking notes on the new cars at 207th St. Could a public display of the cars be not too far behind? The Overhaul Shop sounds like the perfect place for railfans like me to see them.
-Stef
Following is a list of original station platform lengths along the Queens Boulevard route between 179th Street (Jamaica) and 7th Avenue - 53rd Street (Manhattan). In such cases as trackage shared with other chains, I will advise.
179th Street : D2/D4 start 1766+85, end 1773+45, D1/D3 start 1767+00, end 1773+60
169th Street [terminus] : start 1738+65, end 1745+25
Parsons Boulevard : start 1709+70, end 1716+30
Sutphin Boulevard : start 1687+55, end 1694+15
Van Wyck Boulevard : start 1650+95, end 1657+55
Union Turnpike - Kew Gardens : start 1614+05, end 1620+65
75th Avenue : start 1591+35, end 1597+95
71st - Continental Avenues : start 1567+85, end 1574+45
67th Avenue : start 1539+40, end 1545+40
63rd Drive : start 1512+15, end 1518+15
Woodhaven Boulevard - Slattery Plaza : start 1487+05, end 1493+75
Grand Avenue - Newtown : start 1459+85, end 1466+45
Elmhurst Avenue : start 1435+60, end 1441+60
Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights : start 1405+30, end 1411+90
65th Street : start 1382+60, end 1389+20
Northern Boulevard : start 1358+90, end 1365+50
46th Street : start 1335+10, end 1341+70
Steinway Street : start 1309+75, end 1316+35
36th Street : start 1278+06, end 1284+66
Queens Plaza : start 1250+05, end 1256+65 [D2 side commences at 1250+55]
23rd Street - Ely Avenue : start 1224+75, end 1231+35
Lexington Avenue - 53rd Street : start 1149+90, end 1156+50
5th Avenue - 53rd Street : D3 platform start 1130+20, end 1137+10; D4 platform start 1130+44, end 1137+04
7th Avenue - 53rd Street : D3, D4 platforms start 1110+10, end 1116+70; B3 platform start 1087+35, end 1093+95; B4 platform start 1087+40, end 1094+00
In the next installment: The Grand Concourse line.
What's with the graffiti on sub-talk? Are you promoting vandalism now?
I believe out Webmaster wanted to combine both the subway theme with an image of Christmas. The graffiti he choose -- although it was a lawbraking act -- is nonetheless one of the more creative and appealing examples of 'graffiti art'.
I do not condone the acts of those who covered the trains in the 70's with miles of spray paint (nor does the Webmaster, I would assume), but in retrospect you have to admit that alot of those 'kids' were talented. They just didn't have the right guideance in their teen years. Today, a number of the better 'graffiti artists' (probably the guy that did the Xmas banner used on this site) have gone legit, and are highly sought out muralists and advertising artists.
So, I am not as offended by it. After all it has an appropriate message for this time of year. Very clever.
Doug aka BMTman
Some of these are no doubt still wielding their nozzles - just look out the window of a #7 train as you round the elevated curve between 45 Road and H.P. - they have decorated the entire ground floor of a nearby building, and it appears from the care with which it was applied, they did so at the behest of the building's owners. A riot of color, and very impressive.
That's some poor IRT car wearing that coat of holiday cheer - too bad they didn't spare the number plaque. I can't even tell what kind of car it is (though it doesn't look to be an R17).
Wayne
Judging from the door windows, it appears to be an R-21 or an R-22.
I have a Christmas card with an R-26 whose number escapes me at the moment which was all done up in the spirit of the season.
Could someone please tell me where this "graffiti" can be found? I haven't seen it yet.
Apparently it was only up for Christmas Day.
Check with the Webmaster, David Pirmann.
Doug aka BMTman
Yup, I put up a "holiday" graffiti thing for Christmas Eve/Day (I think it was scanned from Subway Art by Cooper & Chalfont, but I got it off the net somewhere). Here it is:
-Dave
I'm not for defacing property, but that's art there..esp. considering that these "artists" probably spent only a few minutes and got the heck out. I love it!
The MTA has announced that train service will operate as usual throughout New Year's eve.
1. Does the MTA get their power from Con-Ed?
2. What will happen if power does go off. Does the MTA have a plan?
In my opinion, I think that the MTA should operate like Amtrack on New Years Eve. They should hold all trains at the closest stations to them from 11:55PM to 12:15 PM just to ensure that nobody does get stuck in the tunnel.
They will hold their trains to my knowledge. In DC, the holding time is from 11:55 to 12:05, Baltimore is 11:50 to 12:10, and Philadelphia is 11:55 to 12:10 if there are no problems. If there are, it will obviously be longer.
Right. Then (as I posted a few days ago), command tells all trains it is safe to proceed. They all take power at the same time, and draw enough current to bring the city's power grid to its knees. That takes down the whole northeast... and (well, you get the idea). I say, keep running. Major systems will be OK; we'll read about the occasional inconveniences the day after. In fact, some of them will be quite humorous -- like the people in Maine who earlier this month got a notice to show up for jury duty on January 3, 1900!
The same thing happened in Philly! Approx. 500 people got jury duty notices for 1900! It makes you wonder what other systems have been forgotten in the whole Y2K bug sweep...
Right. Then (as I posted a few days ago), command tells all trains it is safe to proceed. They all take power at the same time, and draw enough current to bring the city's power grid to its knees. That takes down the whole northeast... and (well, you get the idea). I say, keep running. Major systems will be OK; we'll read about the occasional inconveniences the day after. In fact, some of them will be quite humorous -- like the people in Maine who earlier this month got a notice to show up for jury duty on January 3, 1900!
Hey, in four years we can all be there for the opening of the IRT Subway. Does anyone know what time the first train out of City Hall will be? After a round trip on that, we can ride all the els. I want to ride some horse cars before they're all gone. Same thing with the steam trains on the els. They're electrifying everything. Gee, I wonder what things will be like 100 years from in the year 2000! Who knows, maybe someone will even invent a flying machine! Gee, I'm going to miss my horse.
From
I was wondering, how many of you guys would be interested in Railfan trips out of the country, say to Britain, Europe etc. a week to 10 days riding the rails of those European TGV ICE etc. Just curious
Love to do it, but my dear wife would have quite a few other ideas about where to spend the money (paying bills, seeing our grandchildren, etc.). Plus even a week is time away from work that I just can't afford right now. My road trip with our younger daughter earlier this week was simply time away from the office - I still spent three or four hours each night on the laptop keeping up with email etc., plus all the interruptions during the day when the cellphone would ring.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I grew up having two uncles who worked on major railroads in train service. I grew up in Brooklyn with the BMT el less than 80 feet from my bedroom window. The earliest and most favorite toy that I remember was a toy train. I think I have been a railfan since childhood.
Are there people here who have suddenly become railfans in their adult life who had no interest in trains in childhood?
I grew up having two uncles who worked on major railroads in train service. I grew up in Brooklyn with the BMT el less than 80 feet from my bedroom window. The earliest and most favorite toy that I remember was a toy train. I think I have been a railfan since childhood.
Are there people here who have suddenly become railfans in their adult life who had no interest in trains in childhood?
I've been fascinated by trains (rapid transit) all my life. My parents didn't drive, so with no car, everywhere I ever went as a child was by subway. My earliest recollections were on Standards and Triplexes going as far back as 1957 when I was 3. Even though I don't recall anything earlier, I was probably fascinated by the trains from the moment I was cognizant of being on one.
From
Technically I still am a child (15 yrs old). I've loved transit, especially trains since I was around 3 when I took my first trip on the Subway and LIRR. Ever since the original Sim City came out I've been interested in City Planning and things related to the development of urban areas. I think it's very rare for someone to become a railfan in their adult life.
I'm 17, I used to take Joyrides with my grandfather on the IND from Ditmas Ave to Borough Hall. I always wanted to go to 179 Street. When I did the whole "Ride the entire Subway" trip this summer, the last place I went to was 179 Street, symbolically. Also, I would build an el structure, a tunnel, and a ramp between them using Duplo blocks when I was about 4. Although my father always had a car and that was always our primary means of transport, I still rode the subway from time to time as it was nearby. However, in 1987 I moved to a 2 fare zone, didn't ride the subway often and the interest waned. I think there were years at a time I never set foot in a station. In 1996, I began to commute to school by subway, so I'm back.
As for Sim City, I'm the same way, SC3K is my favorite game and it got me interested in Urban Planning.
ADDENDUM:
I of course forgot to mention that when I was little, my father brought me a subway map so I could pretend to ride around because always doing that was impractical. That's how I became interested in maps, and therefore roads and travelling.
12/25/99
Probably my first taste of trains was when I was 4,5 or 6 years of age. It was the "Lionel" (O) gauge trainsets that caught my attention. Freight cars powered by New York Central lightning stripes got me going.
Merry Christmas,
Bill Newkirk
I am 57, from my earliest memories I always love trains. If my mother had fellow teachers over from her school for a Saturday Maj Jong Games, I remember my dad or uncle(Brighton Line Conductor at the time) would take me some place involving trains. I remember once my dad took me to Sunnyside yards, I do not remember where we got off the 7 Line in Sunnyside, but a two block walk used to take us to track side on a loop, where Pennsy Giant GGIs towered over us. Even though we may have been tresspassing, we were only stopped once, and my dad flipped out his NYPD Det badge, and let us alone. Other times from Brother or Dad took me to Jersey City where steam still ruled on the CNJ and Reading. So it was handed down to me, My brother s 2 boys are not interested. But every place I go, if there is a train. i will ride it. If it is LA, SF, NYC, Hong Kong, Singapore, anywhere in the world. That is why I am looking forward to my trip in Feb. I am extending it one day so I can ride the train from Zurich thru the Alps to Milan, which iread about is one of the most scenic in Europe
I've been a railfan all my life. As a small child I regularly travelled from Poughkeepsie to the City on the NYC, then on to Chicago on the Broadway Limited, and then to Milwaukee on the North Shore. Summers were at my grandparents' home, three houses up from the Lackawanna yard in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania. (The tracks are still there but the yard is now gone.) Many of the men in my mother's family worked in the coal mines; those who didn't, except my grandfather (who worked for the telephone company) worked for the railroad. And my father used to talk a lot about the trolleys, and at one time owned an ex-trolley barn which he and a partner rented out as an investment. The tracks were still in the floor, the inspection pits were there but boarded over, and the (non-functioning) overhead still hung from the ceiling. To me, being a railfan was simply a normal thing. And I'm pleased to say that one of my sons is a die-hard railfan and my other three children are all at least tolerant of my predilection - plus my older grandson loves trains and I'm sure his little brother will too, once he's old enough to know what one is! (Zayda will make sure of that, of course.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Bob!
I'm 57 also. Railfanning must run in our blood.
Chuck Greene
I got you both beat. I'm 59 and a subway fanatic. Since I live in California, I inhale the NYC Subway vicariously through you guys. But the three time I've been to New York since I moved out here, I can tell you that I have spent at least 75% of my time on subways. No kidding. I used to have a bunch of blocks and wooden and plastic toys, and I would make six and seven car trains from it, then construct a bridge from my erector set, and built a makeshift tunnel. One of my blocks had a #4 on it, which, of course, was the number of my favorite train, the Sea Beach. When my uncle gave me a railroad set from Christmas one year (1949), I made a big splash of how I loved the gift, then went back to playing with my own toys because the RR
set was not the subway. Well, I said I was a different kettle of fish and I still am.
My older cousin had a couple of the old gilbert Erector Sets in the late 40s early 50s. When he stopped using them, he gave them to me. I kept them at my Grandparents house when they live in Inwood Manhatten. Did I build anythin, no. I made a train set with the different pieces, some for the tracks, some for the train, and some for the stations.. Do they still have erector sets from metal, or is everything lego stuff
Meccano, the French licensee who still (as of at least 1997) produces Erector products, does make them out of metal. They're expensive, and they don't mesh up with either of the primary girder styles that Gilbert produced (I had both Gilbert versions as a kid - my father's set and my own), but they still embody the same principles that the original sets did. I'll probably buy a set for my grandsons when they're a bit older.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm 40, born in London, moved to USA when 3, then back to London for a year when I was 8. Got to ride the Underground then, loved the map and tried to memorize it (failed!), then when I moved to NYC in '81 after college I got into the subway here. Also a commuter-train fan: Metro North (which I ride every weekend to get up to my house in Ulster Co.) and also the Ulster & Delaware RR and associated lines, including the historic society.
Not so interested in equipment, though: Had a clockwork model train, but always much more interested in my Matchbox, Corgi & Dinky cars. Still a motorhead (6 cars) -- any other railfans who are also car people? I get a lot of comments that it doesn't make sense; I just tell 'em I'm for balanced transit!
JV: I rode the London Underground in 1978 & 1985. Loved it. Next to the New York subway, it's the best. I could never figure out, however, which trains ran completely underground and which surfaced. I remember a stop at the Embankment where the train emerged from the tunnel and for a second I thought I was in New York.
JV: I rode the London Underground in 1978 & 1985. Loved it. Next to the New York subway, it's the best. I could never figure out, however, which trains ran completely underground and which surfaced.
Has to do mostly with the age of the lines. The Circle Line (oldest) has any number of open cuts because it was originally designed for steam locomotives! Now *there's* an old subway system for you.
The lines built after about 1900 tended to be deep-tunneled because most of London is built on clay, so tunneling is much, much easier than in NYC with its Manhattan schist -- some of the hardest granite there is. I've always been jealous of London's ability to create new lines, which is at least in part due to what it's built on. Just in my memory they opened the Victoria Line (1968 or so), the Jubilee Line ('70s) and now the Jubilee Extension to Docklands. [sigh]
sure would be nice if they had RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!
Enuf!!!!
No property will EVER HAVE RAILFAN WINDOWS!!!
OPTO RULES!!!!!
Give it UP!!!
People are sick and tired of your constant rant!!!
stop crying little boy !! install the rail fan window!!
and then go into your corner and be quiet !!
ok mr OH NO YES AGAIN !!! - OPTO or whatever your hidden ID !!
OH YES ....... ONE MORE TIME
RAILFAN WINDOW !!
SAY IT AGAIN !!!!!!
RAILFANWINDOW !!
SAY IT AGAIN AND AGAIN !!
It is regrettable that modern rapid transit practice calls for the demise of those forward facing windows known as Railfan Windows. I'm sure that most people on SubTalk are sorry to see these windows go away. However, the horse has been beaten to death and there are many other things to enjoy about rail transit. lets not dwell on the loss of an old friend but look on the bright side.
Perhaps with driverless systems i.e London Docklands and Lille Metro
forward facing windows will make a return much to the delight of all railfans.
Simon
Swindon UK
Have you seen the new line (#14--"Meteor") of the Paris metro? The trains are completely articulated, so you can see from end to end, and the front is one big picture window. The stations are beautiful, too.
No, but I am looking forward to a Paris visit in the Spring time after I have done New York Subway Tour No6. Is it as fast as they say it is?
Simon
Swindon UK
You must be due for another visit.
Simon
Swindon UK
>>JV: I rode the London Underground in 1978 & 1985. Loved it. Next to the New York subway, it's the best. I could never figure out, however, which trains ran
completely underground and which surfaced. I remember a stop at the Embankment where the train emerged from the tunnel and for a second I thought I was
in New York.
One way to tell is by the width of the car: tube lines are narrower than the older subsurface lines (which are a mix of cut-and-cover and open cut), as well as deeper. The closest open cut to Embankment is between the next westbound stop, Westminster, and St. James' Park (I think). The subsurface lines are the Circle, District, Metropolitan, and Hammersmith & City (previously a branch of the Metropolitan). However, even the tube lines emerge to run aboveground outside central London--but always on separated ROW, never elevated above streets.
I remember the Picidilly Line that goes out to Heathrow. It runs outside for a while, and then goes back in. Has anyone rode the Berlin Subways? The U Bahl and S Bahn, do they have Fan Windows and are they outside? Will 48 hrs do in Berlin, to see much, Does anyone have any favorite European Transit Lines or inter city routes. Please let me know
One of the Berlin lines includes a segment which runs beneath what was East Berlin. During the time of the Berlin Wall, stations along that stretch were closed. IIRC, they have since been reopened.
While I've never been to Berlin, I did ride on London's tube in 1978, specifically the Piccadilly and District lines along with a one-stop hop on the Central line, as well as the Metro in Paris.
The Underbahn is all underground, as the name suggests. The S-Bahn (don't know what it stands for) is elevates, as it's name should suggest.
Strassenbahn (or some such spelling) - but I don't know the translation either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If that's what it is, it means street bahn (route).
It might be Schnellbahn: fast railway. Strassenbahn (street railway) means a tram.
The east-west S-bahn line in Berlin is the coolest, as I remember--it's entirely elevated and quite old. The north-south line runs in tunnel through the city center. The U-bahn is occasionally eleveated, but not (as I remember) in very interesting places.
There was, and probably still is, a red "infobox" on stilts at the Potsdamer Platz renewal site explaining what's going on there. It's essentially an ad for the developers of the area (Sony, BMG, Philips, et. al.), but one of them is the railroad, Deutsche Bahn, so it includes a lot of information about the new transit links planned to sew Berlin back together, including a new main RR station near the Reichstag. Very neato.
Dave, do you remember the number of the S Bahn El mentioned above. Also what do you know about Munich, Prague and Budapest s Trains
Like I said in a previous post on this thread, I was raised in a family that had no car. Neither of my parents drove. Everywhere we went was by subway. I’ve had a love for the subway since I can remember. My earliest recollection was in 1957 at age 3, on Standards and Triplexes. Because I lived in Stuyvesant Town from age 0-13, trips always began with the Standards on the 14th St. Line. To me, visiting relatives was always a treat because I got a good subway ride. I had an aunt and uncle in Canarsie. That meant traversing the 14th St. Canarsie Line on a Standard. I had another aunt and uncle in Fairlawn, NJ. Once again, Standard to 8th Ave., then a nice ride on an R-10 on the A up to 168th St. Wash. Hts. From there it was a bus in the “Intercity Lines”, which usually was a Mack. I can remember going shopping with my parents in Macy’s on 34th St. Standard on the 14th St. Line to Union Sq., then a triplex on one of the Expresses to 34th St. My mother had several friends along the Brighton Line – in Sheepshead Bay and in Trump Village. I’ll bet my mother couldn’t understand why my eyes would light up during Christmas or Easter recess from school whenever she would say “its time to go visiting”. It was usually on a weekday. I used to hate it when the Brighton Express would run local in Brooklyn. Coming home, it would be rush hour, so I’d get a nice express run on the Brighton. Oh, how I remember those triplexes! Then it was the R-27’s, and then the “Brightliners”. Of course, there were the family excursions to Coney Island to see the Aquarium, ride the rides and eat Nathan’s hot dogs. I can remember the thrill of being high up on the Wonder Wheel looking down at the trains coming into and going out of Stillwell and W 8. This was about 1963 or 1964. It was the R-27’s in their original olive drab color that I was looking at. I remember the World’s Fair Specials during the World’s Fair. I was at the Fair twice. I was living in Manhattan at the time. I never dreamed, at that time that within 2-3 years, I’d be living in Queens, walking distance from the Hall of Science on 111th St. I remember my father bringing home a Hagstrom Subway Map from Chemical Bank sometime in the early 1960’s. I commandeered it and that’s how I got to know all the lines. The next map was a 1964 World’s Fair Map. By the time I was 10, I became a walking subway map. I knew all the routes, services and stations throughout the system. I was able to recite all the stations on any line. I was able to do this until I left the City. Being away from it all, with no need to refer to subway maps, I cannot do that today. I know the routes, although not all the services, but I couldn’t recite it all today.
When I was a freshman in high school in 1969, I lacerated my foot, requiring 30 stitches. Being out from school for 3 months, I failed 2 classes. I had to make them up by going to summer school that year. My High School, Newtown was closed during the summer. That meant I had to go to Bryant in Sunnyside. Yippee!! I was issued a subway pass! That was the beginning of my solo train rides. I happened to meet someone in class who (to my shock at the time) was also interested in trains. It was he, who informed me that they were still running wooden cars on the Myrtle Ave. El. One day after classes, we took a ride on Old Myrt. It’s a good thing, because this was the only time I would ever get to ride on the Q’s and on the El. Two months later, the Myrtle Ave. El and the Q-Types would pass into history. From 1969 until 1977, I did a lot of railfanning throughout the system. My mother couldn’t understand my obsession with the subway. When I was in high school and college, often times, I wouldn’t come home until 8 PM or so. Frantic, my mother would ask, “Where have you been. I was so worried about you!” I would calmly say “I took a ride to Coney Island” or “I took a ride to Rockaway”. When the Museum R-1/9 ran on the evening rush hour QB to Coney Island in the 1970’s, I was pretty much a regular on it, even though I lived in Queens. I also rode the Third Ave. El almost everyday during March and April of 1973. I wanted to get in as much as possible on it before that too, like Ol’ Myrt would be gone forever. In 1972, when I was a freshman in college, I met another subway freak. Through this person, I was introduced to the Electric Railroader’s Association. When I went to my first ERA meeting, I found out that there were a lot of people like me who loved the subway. I joined the ERA and went to all the meetings until 1977. I also went on just about every fan trip between 1973 and 1977, my first being the Farewell to the Third Ave. El trip on the Lo-V’s. Unfortunately I lost my interest in the trains from 1977 until 1989. I found this site (nycsubway.org) in Feb., 1996. Except for my pics, slides and railroadiana, this is my only link to the NYC Transit System.
During 1969 to 1975, I went through my creative years. That’s when I was into model building. I built many HO scale rapid transit cars. My original 3 got wrecked. Of the other 9, 3 I sold at the ERA meetings, and I still have 6:
one BU
one Lo-V
one Deck Roof Hi-V
one 1938 WF Car
one R-15 in red
one 3-section BMT Triplex.
I even have a 3-foot section of El that I built out of hobby wood, cardboard and toothpicks. The 3 tracks were 36” flex track. Unfortunately, when packing it for the move to Florida, I took the stanchions off of it, and was never able to find them to glue back on. The cars, I built out of cardboard. I used clear acetate sheeting for the windows, cut ends of kitchen matches for the square marker lights, window screen for the gates.
Like every boy growing up, I was given an electric train set. Mine was an HO set with a black steam engine and freight cars. Like with many of you guys, it was nice, but it wasn’t the subway. I don’t know what happened to the train set, but I wish I still had it. I have another steam freight train set in HO today. Living in Florida, I don’t get to experience the season changes anymore. I miss Fall and the changing colors of the leaves the most. When most people get married, they take their honeymoon in the tropics. My wife and I took ours in the Blue Ridge Mountains in October, 7 years ago, during the height of the Fall season. In Boone, NC, they have a tourist steam RR called the “Tweetsie Railroad”. It had a green and red steam engine – coal burning, unlike most steam engines today that have been modified to burn oil. We rode that. At one of the gift shops, I saw a train set called “Smokey Mountain Express” with a steam engine, also in green and red that looks strikingly similar to the Tweetsie engine, so I bought it. One of these days, if I ever get to build a layout, I’ll run my Smokey Mountain Express on it. Instead of the freight cars, maybe I’ll hook up my triplex to the steam engine. You can take the boy out of New York, but you can’t take the New York out of the boy.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As for me, I am also only 15 years old, and really have not been very interested in rail and transit for very long. I live in Philadelphia, and for the first thirteen years of my life, have only gone places in a private car/van or a school bus. In fifth grade, I always liked to watch trains going over two railroad bridges on my school bus route, but never thought of trains as an actual means of transportation. (In 6th grade that was not the case because the school bus route did not go over my favorite bridge (Girard Avenue at 34th Street). Also, I had a girlfriend who sometimes rode the school bus.
In 7th grade, I changed schools, and started riding SEPTAs 44 bus to school. The bus was not that great in terms of speed or frequency, but I loved it anyway because I could finally go somewhere without my parents driving me. I quickly learned other bus routes in center city, then other bus routes other places, then I learned about the happenings under me. But right before I was about to ride a lot of SEPTA routes, they went on strike. They day after, they offered free rides and I rode by myself on the Market Frankford line for the first time.
In the beginning of 8th grade, I liked this girl and found out where she lived, and snook to her house, and put a note on her railing. I took 2 buses and the Frankford el to get there. She never liked me, but I astonished my transit illiterate friends by being able to get there without my mom knowing. Most of them had never heard of the el, and most yet do not know what the el is even after this incident was over.
Last year I rode the Market street el for fun a lot after school. This year I commute to school on the Broad Street subway. In the morning, I have first dibs on the 1 railfan seat, but leave it open to others some days. I know two BSS motormen right now.
Last year I joined the Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passangers (DVARP) and now attend monthly meetings.
You would think my parents would be happy because I can go places and they do not have to drive me, but that is not the case. My mom is in disbelief that I could like transit, and does not let me go many places because she does not think it is safe. But she does support my attending DVARP meetings, testifying at SEPTA hearings, and the like because she thinks it will look good on my college applications. As for my classmates, most are not aware of my interest in transit.
Isaac
Great post! I did the same as you in Rochester, NY, when I grew up. The Rochester subway had long since been shut down, but I learned all about it and rode buses all over the city.
My mom is in disbelief that I could like transit, and does not let me go many places because she does not think it is safe. But she does support my attending DVARP meetings, testifying at SEPTA hearings, and the like because she thinks it will look good on my college applications.
[chuckle] Probably a case of "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." The various ARPs are great for railfans, and they combine rail with urban and regional planning.
One thing that struck me reading all the "When did it start?s" is how many of us are actual closet urban planners, not solely railfans. Heartening that rail teaches us all more about the urban areas we live in.
About the Rochester subway.... are you familiar with a 1 hour special that the History Channel had about the Rochester Subway?
About the Rochester subway.... are you familiar with a 1 hour special that the History Channel had about the Rochester Subway?
NO! Wow, had no idea. But I watch almost no TV, so don't pay attention to program listings. Has it been on recently? Wonder if it's available on video?
There is a video available on the Rochester subway - not sure if it's the one shown on the History Channel or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. It's entitled The End of the Line: Rochester's Subway and was copyrighted in 1994 by Animatus Studio in Rochester, NY. It runs 45 minutes. MSRP at that time was $29.95.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Forgot to mention it's quite well done. If I wasn't expecting company in the next few minutes I'd probably put it in and watch it again right now!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hang in there, Issac! Most of my youth was spent riding transit,also. While attending Drexel , I rode the "G" bus from 59th & Malvern and then took the "el" to school. I found a lifetime friend ,a driver on the "G". I used to ride with him (free) on weekends when he worked other lines out of Southern Depot. I rode the , 2 (the duece), 5,12, 17, 37, M, 64 , etc. He always let me change the sign at the end of each run. He would look at his watch and say"It's time for us to leave, Charlie", when we had to pull out. I felt like I was driving the bus with him.
Once it gets in your blood, it never leaves!
Chuck Greene
I have SimCity2000 on my computer at home, and while I love the game, it has always bothered me that rail lines and/or subway lines never had the ridership or the impact on traffic that one would expect. I'd have a rail system in a city of over 100,000 (with high-density zoning and no highways) with something like 2000 riders per day. Bugs the heck out of me that subways are so expensive in SimCity2000 and yet have so little impact.
Anyhow, I've heard that they've remedied that in SimCity3000, so that rail and subway lines have much higher ridership and much more effect on traffic than in SC2000. Anyone here who's got SC3000 who can tell us if that's true?
Basically, yes. Transit has more of an effect in SC3000 than in SC2000. Ridership figures are by station rather than systemwide, so it's harder to compare, but building transit does relieve traffic noticeably. Any city I've built in SC3000 that has both a good transit system and a highway network inevitably has a very well-used transit system and a very under-used highway netowrk. When subway or rail lines become congested, Sims demand more transit service. After you've finished building more lines, if transit ridership spikes, you get congratulated on your mass transit system. And there are no NIMBY's. =)
I do wish they'd have maps that shows only rail/subway lines (with ridership), similar to the traffic maps for roads. It's very difficult to tell which lines are overcrowded without actually querying lots of individual rail/subway/station squares all over the map.
I got this game for Christmas from my kids, now I have a good reason to open the box ... Thanks
Mr t__:^)
Ive had Sim City 2000 for 6 months now and am still trying how to get more money. I usually spend it all for the railroad, and never get to complete that, before I go broke, plus start on anything else. And the Trial Version of Railroad Tycoon, confuses me. How about one of you guys invent a Version of the NYC Subway. Just to run it, no race or anything like that
You should actually build a city for the subway and rail. The subway in New York was not built before the city. Now one thing that you should try is to build a city without roads. Your people will use subways and trains for everything. You can still stimulate commercial development with rail and sea connections normally for industry, in addition to air and space. And garbage can be hauled by rail or by sea.
Oh BTW, since you said 6 months, I assumed you were talking about 3000. I'm familiar with both games. Not Classic though.
No 2000, I am looking at the disk now. I will try it later I hope
Oh, well in 2000 Railroads and subways don't have as good an effect, and it's impossible to build cities without roads. And of course forget about garbage deals, subway connections and spaceports.
In SC3K, highways are mostly useless. In the event that you decide to separate certain districts from each other with a large space (mainly a river), then a highway links them. When I had industry on one side of the river, and residential and commercial on the other, I had some congestion problems so I built a highway. Solved nothing. When I demolished it, Constance Lee, my City Planning Advisor kept complaining of lack of access to zones, sometimes transportation advisor Moe Biehl did too. So I killed all non-civic development on that side of the river. To recover my city from the decline (with ALL industry gone, not many people stayed and buildings were abandoned), I had to build LOTS of industry at one time, this created large blocks of development, as opposed to the healthy mix and match of my previous city. This has also created an overabundance of subway lines, which remain crowded, many bus stops (busses were phased out in my first city due to the superior subway there) and streets still congested. Over time I intend to do some rezoning and dezoning (building parks), maybe that will help out. For now, I'm just playing with my old city again, destroying it, rebuilding it.
sure wouldlike to see how a RAILFAN WINDOW would look in simcity !!!!
Not much, all of the subway is underground. But there are railroads on the surface.
Remember Streets of Sim City? I know it was a flop, but there should be a Trains of Sim City game.
Ditto for me guys. I lived in the Queensbridge Housing Project from the time I could remember until I was 12. I used to watch from my bedroom window as the #2 4th Avenue Local came out of the tunnel on its way to Queens Plaza, its northern terminal until 1949 when it was extended to Ditmars Blvd. Sometimes a #1 or a #4 triplex could be seen but I could never get close enough to see if it was a Brighton or Sea Beach train extended from its usual 42nd Street and Times Square Terminal for emergency duty into Queens. Whenever I was outside playing in the park alongside the tracks, I only saw B trains without any numbers. All this fascinated me and made me a subway rat from the time I could remember. Ironically, I hated the 4th Avenue local and couldn't wait to get to 42nd Street where I could walk across the platform and catch the #4 Sea Beach to Coney Island, or the #1 Brighton Express to Ebbets Field to see my then beloved Brooklyn Dodgers.
Fred it was the Brighton that went to Astoria. During that times the Sea Beach and West End Terminated in Manhatten.
yea!!! thats what ive been talking about ON TOPIC OF COURCE!!
glad to see the wake up call has worked !!!
finally the correct subject RAIL-FAN !!!!
yes thats right folks thats what makes the good old days right on the money the PRE R 40 era..... and the almighty dreaded by some of you ....... THE RAILFAN WINDOW !!! right on !!!!!
My intrest in rapid transit started at about 1950 or so,when i was about 6 yrs old we moved from Sunnyside to Ridgewood into an apartment house about a block away from the Fresh Pond Rd station,i had an execpitional view of the entire station,framed by a knitting mill building on the left and some real old homes on the right which are still there. I could see every one of the wooden gate cars as well as the standards,as they headed to Metropolitan Ave,many times my dad would take the wooden el trainas he knew it was my favorite we would stand on the poen platform in all kind of weather as this was his favorite too, the ringing of the signal bells,one to stop, two to go,the flip over seats,even the open sides in the summertime,later on when i was 10 my friends and i would ride the wooden trains to metropolitan ave,which in the summertime was great as the open sides would let in the smells of the greenery, the moter smeels,the cresote from the ties the sounds of the gears as the car moved the clickty clack of the wheels on the rails,this is still in my memory after all these years,as no new rapid transit or light rail will ever capture this thrill ride again, We would ride the wooden cars to Metropolitan Ave and then follow the conductors as they would flip the seats in the direction of travel,well we would follow him and flip them back the other way,several times we would get thrown out onto Metropolitan Ave,which was no big deal as we would sneak around the station climb onto the ledge and make our way to the rest room window which was always open and climb in and back onto the trains again,this didn't happen very often as we were getting to respect the operations more and more, it became an escape from everyday boring life in our neighborhood in exploring faraway places,and when we discovered the subway boy watch out we had fun, Things were fun like playing in the old closed down trolley barn at Fresh Pond Rd,this was a kids playland,as we even played in the training trolley (or what was left of it )on the seccond floor,there was a lot of material there even trolley poles stacked up in a small room,and a lot if electrical pannels with copper buss bars,we had fun jumping the inspction pits,and playing on the wooden el cars in the yard where i almost died,after that it was strictly riding the cars no playing in the yard again,and the railfan window was ours....but we would let other kids watch as well,thats a brief rundown of how i was introduced to railfaning.........loved every minute of it and still do,as much as i can.I even remember the trolley busses that ran in and around Sunnyside as they would always make me wonder how they ran on two wires untill my dad explained it to me.i miss the traction action tn N.Y.C.and maby some day will return.but untill then i thank all sub talkers for the tremoundous intrest in this subject and doing so in a very professional way,i have learned a lot from reading the posts and i wish i could meet all of you,and be with you on the field trips,maby next year....but for now every one of you have a safe and a very happy new year.
thats what i remember !! r -1 thru r -9 !!
and some wodden types too !!!
the lanterns looked like what i used to call BUG EYES!!
( irt hi nad low V types )........!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh yes LOVE THAT RAIL FAN WINDOW !!!!!!!......
Plus when i attended George Westinghouse Vocational and Tech H.S. i would take the wooden Q's to Jay St.station,took them for four years,the only wooden el cars in the country with link and pin couplers.....in regular service,one day comming home from school one of my classmates had s bunch of bottles of appleblossum,it smelled like a cesspool,he spilled all of the bottles in the 2nd car,we all watched as the train made it's way back from Jay St as people would enter the car they just as quickly exited to the next car,causing a crowing in the other three cars...the only passengers in that car were a few..one asleep or drunk,the others old people who maby couldn't smell the stench,we had quite a kick out of that day....just old fashoned fun,hey....mild compared to todays antics.
Railfanning started shortly after some bright minded individual decided to use the new steam engine to pull passangers down at track. It's been around ever since.
how about PUSHING it the other way or foward?
how about PUSHING it the other way or foward?
like the los angeles metrolink rail system !!!
This is commonly done today, check out the LIRR. Back then, pulling was the only way because if the operator was in the back, he would have to see through the whole train, as opposed to unobstructed in the front.
Today, with electric controls, the operator can run the train from a cab in the front car or from an idle locomotive, and the locomotive in the rear can do all the work, this greatly simplifies reversing.
The old LIRR cars have two locos, one moves the train, the other provides electric power for the on board utilities (like lights, A/C). This is because the cars are converted MUs, although I don't know why that should matter.
starting playing with a set of american flyer electric trains in the late fiftys (1950's).(yes my mother threw them out). waiting for my grandmother at newawrk after the bizzard in 1956. watching trains at penn station in newark nj. not knowing where all those long distance trains where going. going to rca tech on 31st and riding the subway between classes.
look at all of the good old classic trains philadelphia
new york chicago during the pre r -40 period and check out
they all ahd working railfan windows !!!
Chicago still has a sort of railfan window; even with the full-width cab, there is a window on the left side of it, so you can look out the front. Not as nice as the good ol' railfan seat right up next to the front window, though. That era is gone, unfortunately. All lines in Chicago are OPTO.
-Jacob
Good railfanning today on the "E" train from 34th Street-Penn Station to Sutphin Boulevard. After a sort of lethargic start - the GT #D2-1171 under the East River must have spooked the operator and he ran at half-steam under full green the rest of the tube - we got it going through Queens, getting up over 45 once past the Elmhurst GTs.
A nice ride on a railfan-friendly R32, #3883.
As I walked back towards the middle of the train I noticed the second car was nearly full, and soon found out why - the third car, #3769, was inhabited by exactly two skells, and it stank abominably. Oh well...
Wayne
Your mother threw out your American Flyer trains? That's sacrilege! I'm heavily into Flyer trains myself. Can you remember what set you had, or at least the locomotive? Some sets from 1958 have become valuable.
I'm 45 now, and have been fascinated by subways and trolleys since I was a very small child. My first memories are of going back and forth between the IRT Borough Hall and Newkirk Avenue stations with my Mom and Dad. Mom pointed out the letters on the station walls as we went, teaching me alphabets in the process. My first solo trip on the subway (not counting the time I got lost in 1966), came in January 1969, again on the Flatbush IRT. By 1971, I was going solo on a regular basis. Now my mission is to photograph and document each of the 468 stations. I am about 70% complete overall, 95% complete in the underground stations. And I am still happy to be a railfan, whether it is here in NYC or in my home-away-from-home, Washington DC.
Wayne
I lived in NYC for about 8 months in 1963, when I was 3 and 4 years old. I have vague memories of waiting for the A train with my mom, somewhere underground. But I didn't become a railfan until Friday, June 29, 1984.
I had come to NYC to see "Rocky Horror" in the Village. I took the Trailways bus to the PABT, and had no idea how I was going to get around - I'd figured I would stick to cabs. However, on my way upstairs from the underground bus platform I saw the entrance to the subway. In I went. I didn't know anything about the system, except that I was on 42 St. and wanted to go to 8 St, so I needed a downtown train. I don't remember if I was on a local or express. But I was fascinated by the speed and noise of the old cars (R-10?), and how the local and express "raced' each other between stations.
In those days you bought your ticket for the movie early. It was around 7 pm, and I had time to kill, so I went back into the subway at West 4 St. By then downtown trains were diverted to the "BMT track", which I didn't know about. I was surprised to see an entire second station underneath the first! (Of course, whoever made that station announcement was wrong about the 6th Ave line platform being "BMT".) The first train smokin' must've been a D, since it went over the Manny B. and stopped at DeKalb. On the bridge, another surprise and a great view.
I rode a bit into Brooklyn (7 Av or Prospect), reversed, and got off at DeKalb for a long walk to my uncle's place - which turned out to be between the two Clinton-Washington stations (A/CC and GG). My uncle, who worked for the TA, directed me to the A train, which was a scary walk (Fulton St. after dark!). Rode the A far up into Manhattan and came back to West 4 - time for the movie which that night was a true "late-night double feature".
The show ended around 4 am. My Trailways bus home didn't leave until 8, so I killed time you-know-where, rode the A to 207 St and back, dozed off somewhere along CPW and ended up back at West 4. The first train uptown was an E express, and I still had plenty time, so I rode it to Queens out of curiosity. The run from Queens Plaza to 71-Continental...WOW! My first railfan experience ended on the E, returning to 42 St.
Three weeks later I was back again (one day after my 25th birthday), riding the E again, getting lost at the Empire State Building, and finding the Lexington line. In August '84 I got to NYC much earlier, this time visiting 370 Jay Street and the Transit Museum (where I bought a 1980 full-size wall map), rode the Culver to Coney and the Brighton back into the city, and later the #4 past 161 St and River Ave.
I've been to NYC at least once a year since then (except 1991-94), and made sure to get plenty quality time on the subways. I didn't even ride a bus until Oct. '96, and have not ridden a cab there since 1980!
right on !!! sounds like my 6 day experence last november 1 -6
1999 railfan vidieotaping 2 5 7 a e n q !!!!!!!!
be shire to go back and rail fan the redbirds !!!
I forgot to mention that in 1984 I was an "information specialist" for Baltimore's MTA. Their pitiful subway had opened in Nov. '83, between Charles Center and Reisterstown Plaza, but that hadn't sparked any interest.
To be honest I am not sure what started my interest Railroads, i know hwo that influence came from however, Dad got me started on them 28 years ago. Believe it or not my earliest memory of trains was going to Branford Trolley Museum as a kid with my father, who at that time ran the restoration shop. Hard to believe that at only 28 my earliest recollection of riding any type of train was riding "the Brick " at Branford ahead of all the cars used during the Pagent of 75 I believe(photos exist much to my parents delight!) From there iall wnet downhill and I am hooked for life
When I was about 3 my Mom taught me how to read. To teach me how to distinguish colors, she used a NYC Subway map (this would have been around 1975). That's how it started for me.
Steve,
Speaking of the Brick over at Branford, it's being brought out of retirement and will be built into a new work unit. This is being done in order to relieve the Montreal Shunter of some duties.
-Stef
That is really great to hear, I will have to check on the Brick when I come up from FL for Members Day, what was the reason it went into retirement? I remeber something about motors or gears? Thanks again Stef
I don't know exactly what was wrong, but I know that it was put aside for a long time. The car is going to be completely rebuilt. It had been sitting off the track near the shop, but it'll be brought inside now that the project on ConnCo Car #2350 is complete. The Shunter is getting on in years and needs to be relieved of some duties. Ted E., our mechanic, started the project by retrieving a set of axles for the car. It's being dubbed the "Super Brick", being that it will be an overall improvement from the original design. The work continues on....
See You On Members Day,
Stef
I suppose my interest in transit began with trips I
made with my father into Manhattan. He owned a
cigar and toy store in Sheepshead Bay, and would go
into the city every other week to buy stuff. I went
along, and was amazed by his ability to get around
the system. Then as a teenager, there were a couple
of friends who would go ride the subways on
Saturdays.
I guess I've always been a nose against the front
window rider, and to this day, find it boring not
being up at the front window. It seems like years
ago, there was more competition to be at the front
window. I've even been surprised on some Nostalgia
specials that most people seem content to just ride
the train. Buses also fascinated me from an early
age. I especially liked to sit behind the driver,
and watch the numbers on the old Johnson coffee
grinder boxes change as it counted the money. One
of my special treasures is in having a hand operated
Johnson coffee grinder fare box. The jingle of the
coins going down the chute, and the noise it made
when counting the coins are very familiar. My
father used to sell the McGill coin changers in his
store, but not the real big ones that a lot of the
drivers used.
Most of my experiences on transit have been alone.
I guess looking out the front window, or riding up
front in the bus was a way of occupying my mind. I guess also there was always a sense of adventure and danger going on a line I didn't know or to an area of the city that I wasn't familiar with. Those feelings hold true even today. Destination roll signs also had an element of mystery and surprise.
Sometimes when a Greyhound driver is scrolling through the destination roll sign, I see some destination that seems foreign and mysterious.
Karl,
I've been a Railfan my entire life. My interest goes back as long as I could remember. An IRT Elevated has always been nearby. History has happened before my very eyes. Imagine that cars were covered with grafitti and in two separate paint schemes. I remember the blue and silver and white schemes. As a young boy, I was witness to the cars improving over the years.
I'd guess I really got into the hobby when I got my first subway map way back when I was about 6. From that point on, I was hooked. It just seems that I can never get enough. I love the subway system. Various railroads do interest me, but it all started with the NYC subway.
HO Scale Train Sets are also a favorite of mine. If I wanted something, I'd go to the local hobby shop for it. I'm not so much into modeling as I used to be, although it's still an interest. I envision one of these days running a train of IRT R17s,21s, and 22s on a really nice layout. Is owning a subway car practical? You can especially in HO. Of course, I'm so dedicated to the hobby, that if I could, I would go out and purchase a full size car for my enjoyment. Perhaps I'd better get tsome cash together, lots of it. Where would I put my pride and joy?
-Stef
Is owning a subway car practical? You can especially in HO. Of course, I'm so dedicated to the hobby, that if I could, I would go out and purchase a full size car for my enjoyment. Perhaps I'd better get tsome cash together, lots of it. Where would I put my pride and joy?
You better put an electrified fence with razor wire and guard dogs around your house. If that subway car is going to be in your back yard, the graffitiers and scratchitiers will try to tag it.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'd probably put it at a Museum that would want the car. It would hopefully be at some place like Branford in which I could make the car fully functional and roll down the line with my pride and joy. Heck, I'd take a married pair if I could!! I just can't get enough of the cars in RED. It's almost like an addiction. Then again, there are other favorites like the R32 and 38 that catch my eye.
Happy Holidays As Always,
Stef
I'd probably put it at a Museum that would want the car. It would hopefully be at some place like Branford in which I could make the car fully functional and roll down the line with my pride and joy. Heck, I'd take a married pair if I could!! I just can't get enough of the cars in RED. It's almost like an addiction. Then again, there are other favorites like the R32 and 38 that catch my eye.
I'll take a Standard or a Triplex unit in brown, or maybe a BU in maroon. Maybe even a nice Peter Witt trolley.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Peter Witt Cars? Branford has two of them. One is Brooklyn Car 8111 which hasn't been restored, and the other is 2898, which is a TTC car. The 2898 was restored cosmetically, and only sees limited movement due to some mechanical problems.
-Stef
WOW!!! Twenty seven links in this thread (on a quiet Christmas Day) in less than ten hours, and everyone traces their railfan interest back to childhood. Non railfans may think that we are crazy, but it certainly seems to be a good kind of crazy. I sure wish that I was close enough to once again ride the subways of New York. You guys that can..... please enjoy it for me!!!!
To Stef, I feel about the BU's the way you feel about the R-17's. I found a floor plan the other day that I created at age 10(about the end of WWII). In the drawing I had created a home out of two BU's, living room, dining room and kitchen in one, bedrooms and bathroom in the other. The cars would still be coupled so that the gates between the two could be operated as they were in passenger service. I never was able to sell my parents on this idea, although I sure tried. Since BERA has so many of them, do you think they might turn over two cars to me for the completion of my childhood project?:-)
Building homes out of subway cars isn't such a far-fetched idea. Streetcar bodies have been used as homes, or incorporated into a larger structure, and down in Atlanta back in the early '80s a number of low-income housing units were constructed from surplus refrigerator cars (1960's vintage mechanical reefers, three of them staggered side-by-side, with windows cut in the front and rear - the insulation was excellent!). So there's no reason it couldn't be done, although (unlike the reefers) those early subway cars would be hard to heat in winter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The idea of subway/rapid transit car as a house was realized in a very clever IKEA TV commercial of about two years ago.
Anyone remember it?
An R-32 or 38 is redecorated by IKEA workers in break-neck (pitstop crew) speed.
It was something I should have video-taped for future viewing.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, anything's possible!!!! They would need some work. The BUs are truly unique. I hope one day we can run multiple cars. Can you see it now? 1349's going down the line in the summer in convertible fashion. That would be great. We can take all that fresh Connecticuit air in....
Take Care,
Stef
the railfan window is going out everywhere except the philadelphia
m4s maybe some r 62s on the 3
maybe ALL HIPPOS RINOS
AND MOST R 40s ( not all ).....
no railfan windows AND THIS NEW R 142 NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!
so forget new york when the railfan window is completely gone !!
then i will just stay away from new york city i just wont bother to
visit anymore !!!
at least i will still have my railfan vidieos to show how it used to be !! so how about that ??
That's unfortunate, but what does that have to do with my post?
-Stef
I say just ignore him. The R-32s will be around for a long time. And there will still be railfan windows if the TA doesn't tint the window going into the cab.
the cab will be BLOCKED OFF
defy reason !! check out those hippos and rinos !!
how long did you say the r 32s will be around ?????
defy reason what makes your posts so dammed relevant to rail systems worldwide on topic subjects ??? finally the new subway cars will
not have railfan windows that is
a true fact !! and you know it !!
Railfan windows will survive, and thrive, through the onslaught of OPTO, and we have ADTranz to thank for that. They have their eyes on the future, the new, even though they do not have the ability to put durable seats in trains. But the question is not can both OPTO and railfan windows coexist in harmony, but rather it is whether the transit officials, planners, and people from subway car building companies know of the M4. So, I think that we should form a Coalition for the Preservation of Railfan Windows, and invite all the people mentioned above to Philadelphia to ride the el. And of course, we will name Mr. Willie (or whatever he calls himself) president of the organization.
Actually, you have whoever designed the M-4 to thank for that. I believe it was designed by SEPTA, not by the carbuilder (Adtranz).
David
[Railfan windows will survive, and thrive, through the onslaught of OPTO, and we have ADTranz to thank for that.]
Railfan windows will survive, and thrive, through the onslaught of OPTO, and we have ADTranz to thank for that. They have their eyes on the future, the new, even though they do not have the ability to put durable seats in trains. But the question is not can both OPTO and railfan windows coexist in harmony, but rather it is whether the transit officials, planners, and people from subway car building companies know of the M4. So, I think that we should form a Coalition for the Preservation of Railfan Windows, and invite all the people mentioned above to Philadelphia to ride the el. And of course, we will name Mr. Willie (or whatever he calls himself) president of the organization.
Yep, the M-4s are great in that respect. The railfan windows are pretty much all you could ask for.
It was relatively easy to do on such a small line, however. I can't imagine doing it system-wide in New York. Each station had to be outfitted with two three-camera closed-circuit radio-broadcasting video systems. All that for a railfan window.
That's not quite accurate. With only 6-car trains max, SEPTA needed the flexibility of married pairs. So the M-4s were designed with a cab in each in car. With such short cars, you'd lose valuable seating with a full-width cab. Lucky for us this resulted in the great railfan window!
answer EVERYTHING!!
EVERYTHING !!!
I can imagine it!!!!!!!
Although I've always lived on Long Island (I'm 46 yrs old) and my parents always drove all my relatives lived in Bklyn and as a kid I slept over their houses alot. One grandmother lived by the 20th Av Station of the Sea Beach and in the 50's we used to watch the trains through the holes in the overpass (before they were cemented in). I specifically remember the Standards although I'm sure I rode Triplexes too. When I was about 10 she moved to the Van Sicklen Station on the "F" (then the "D") which was exclusively R1-9's. My other grandmother was IRT living in the Vaderveer houses by the Newkirk and Nostrand Station. Since the turnstiles were on the platform level I would stand on the free side all day watching the trains. I also kept track of all the NY Av buses from her window and would guess if the next one was old style GMC or fishbowl. She then moved to B.25 Wavcrest Station and I got to regularly ride the "A" to Rockaway. My aunt lived by the Kings Hway Station of the Brighton. I also vaguely remember the trackless electric buses somewhere in Bklyn as a toddler. We would go to Bklyn by LIRR either from Hempstead or Westbury (which was all diesel then) I also kept track of all the Hempstead Bus Company buses that went through my neighborhood, both Macks and fishbowls. My favorite was 411, a fishbowl.As a teen I would railfan the whole system usually taking the Canarsie Standards, the Myrtle Q's, the Franklyn and Culver shuttle standards and the Bronx 3rd Av Worlds Fair Low V's all in one day.
Then I grew up and got other interests
Three years ago my son Arthur was born and my interests were renewed. I take him railfanning about twice a month. Since as a cop I ride the LIRR and Subways free and Arthur because of his age it is a very cheap way to spend the day. Through this forum I learned about Branford and other transit attractions and have gone there with Arthur and my wife.
I've never though about it, but I guess it was the Saturday trips from Elizabeth to Bayonne with my mother to visit my grandmother on the CNJ. We did not own a car. If we went into the city it was by bus, but my mother knew the subway system enough to get around by train. My parents gave me an American Flyer set when I was about six. As I grew older I was always fascinated by where different lines went and would use railroads or subways any chance I could. My wife also likes trains. We now have trains on what was the kitchen table (N gauge), trains running the living room table (#1 Gauge Aristocraft), and I still have all my American Flyer S gauge. We ride tourist lines on our mini-vacations (3 days) and still use the subways and buses in the city on our weekend adventures which pretty much includes destinations all over the five boroughs.
OK, tell me - how on earth did you get your wife to agree to N scale on the kitchen table???? Mine are relegated to Ntrak modules (stored in the garage) and my equipment (stored in the "shed" attached to our house)
At least I do have several shelves in the living room for my trolley and train books, plus a few more in the office nook for the relevant videos. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It all starts with the basic: We don't cook. Because of that we don't eat home more than two or three times a week. It's just the two of us, so when Rosanne cooks (i.e. leftovers in the microwave) or when I cook (i.e. pick up Chinese food) we eat in the living room at our dining table with the two dining benches. We have no other furniture in the living room and no extra room to walk. This left the kitchen/dining room table available, and I put a 4'x4' board on top for the trains. Rosanne also uses this board for some of her seasonal displays.
Ah... well, that wouldn't work at our house, since there's always one six-foot-tall teenager swinging the refrigerator door (and he's only just turned fourteen - I hate to think how tall he's going to get - we live in a 243-year-old house so he already has to duck at the doorways) and occasionally two more college students home, plus the (very occasional) visit from our older daughter and our grandchildren. Plus I can't imagine eating out very often - I like to cook almost as much as I like to railfan.
But maybe I can convince her to let me hang some Unitrack from the crown moulding ... plus a helix to the second floor in the dining room closet ... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe you could fit some Z gauge somewhere? Rosanne wants me to put some Aristocraft #1 gauge around the room at ceiling height. Unfortunately, her displays on the top of the record and book shelves around the room won't allow enough space. One of our friends says that we live in a walk-in closet.
Heck, I've got two houses - one in New Jersey, one in North Carolina - and I still don't have enough room for anything! I've actually got a bit of Z - everything Micro-Trains has ever released with Pennsy paint - but haven't ever set it up. When I was out of work in late '94 through '95 I did build a Z layout in a desktop for a friend who owned a Ford dealership - last I stopped by to see him (over a year ago now) it was still running, same (oh, the sacrilige) New York Central F-unit pulling the train. (In all fairness, Bob would have preferred a local road like the Seaboard, which ran right beside the dealership, but one wasn't available and my painting skills aren't that good.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Probably for me when I rode the red line and L2 and L4 buses here in DC. I used to live about a block from the Van Ness-UDC Station and would go to the bus station now used by the H2 and N8 often. I would sometimes throw a fit if I couldn't get the railfan window (not knowing much as to what was going on) or request the bus to stop.
At 6 months old (I'm told) my father bought me my first set of Lionel trains. I also lived on Dumont Ave in Brooklyn, just one block from Livonia Avenue where I spent many an afternoon with my grandmother watching the NewLots train passing. I've loved trains - especially the subways for as long as I can remember. Considering my life now, I count myself as extremely fortunate.
Like Bill Cosby, "I started out as a child."
My love of streetcars (and by association, subways) started as far back as 2 years of age. I have memories of a ride on a line that went over several bridges, and the conductor was constantly collecting fares. (Of, course this was the fabled 26 line to Sparrows Point and Bay Shore Park.)
When I got older and could ride by myself, I went everywhere you could by streetcar. I even cried (age 3)when my father wanted to go somewhere by automobile.
By 1957 I discovered that there were others who shared my love. (The greatest joy of a young railfan is finding out that you are not alone.) Some of them are still my closest friends 40+ years later.
Since some of us were old enough to drive, trips to DC and Philly
were added to the list of cars to ride.
By the 1960's, the streetcar was rapidly vanishing from Baltimore, and would vanish by november 1963. But I found the Baltimore Streetcar Museum (in fact. I'm one of the Founding Members, wear No. 20, and joined right after the incorporation in May 1966.) and 33 years later am still very much involved.
Trains have been in my blood since I can remember. I am told that when I was teething and couldn't fall asleep, my father would drive me down to the Grand Trunk Western tracks, perhaps a mile and a half or so from our house in South Bend, and wait for a train to pass. That would do the trick every time. Later, during Sunday drives, we would park alongside the New York Central tracks and wait for a train. When the caboose would go by, we'd wave to the brakeman. Sometimes, he'd wave back. I got my first toy train at the age of 3, a battery-powered gizmo which didn't make it around the track more than a few times before the batteries died. After several trips to buy batteries, my folks decided that the next train they buy for me would be electric. On my fifth birthday, that's exactly what happened. I got an American Flyer Pioneer Flyer set, which I still have in the original set box. My mother figured I'd never go for Lionel and its three-rail track, plus she thought (correctly, IMHO) that Flyer trains looked more realistic. Of course, by 1961, Gilbert had taken a turn for the worst and quality was going down the tubes.
I first heard of the term "subway" around 1963 or 1964. We had Richard Scary's (sp) Best Word Book Ever, and there is a chapter on various things in cities, including subways. There is a subway entrance depicted, and I saw what appeared to be a subway entrance in Mishawaka as we drove down Main St. once. When I asked my father if that was the case, he replied no, but said New York had many subways. The seeds had been planted, so to speak. While on vacation in 1965, our last stop was New York, and it was on July 21st that my love affair with the subway began - on an N train of shiny new R-32s. I soaked up the sights and sounds like a sponge, particularly the green backlit side destination signs with "57th St." prominently displayed while headed for Manhattan and "Coney Island" on Brooklyn-bound trains.
Two years later, we moved to New Jersey. While it was difficult to leave Indiana (indeed, I took it pretty hard), my folks promised we'd get to visit New York, and I immediately thought about the subway. Just before we left Indiana, I rode on Chicago's L for the first time. This was in 1967, when the 6000-series cars dominated the system. Anyway, two weeks after arriving in Jersey, we spent a pleasant Sunday - April 30, to be exact - in the city, taking in the Empire State Building, then going to Rockefeller Center on a D train (I think) - my first experience on the IND. After lunch, it was a marathon ride on another D train to Coney Island via the Culver line. Hey, I just wanted to go somewhere on the subway. We returned to Port Authority via BMT: N (R-32s) to 59th St. and an RR (R-27s) to Times Square. Don't ask me why we changed trains.
After that, we'd try to make it into the city once or twice a month, and I made sure every trip included subway travel. That fall, my folks enrolled my sister and me in Lithuanian Saturday school in Brooklyn. While I balked at first about the idea, my mother said we'd be going by subway after taking an Intercity bus from Jersey to Port Authority. OK, I went along with that. That first Saturday, Sept. 23, didn't start off well. We took an E train to 14th St., and I almost had a stroke when it stopped at 23rd St. even though the side route signs on the R-1/9s said "E-8th Ave. EXPRESS" I felt utterly betrayed. Then at 14th St. we transferred to the Canarsie line. All seemed fine at first when I saw the "to BMT" signs. I had forgotten that the Canarsie line was still served by BMT standards, which I didn't exactly fall in love with in July of that year. After school let out, we walked to Marcy Ave. for a ride across the Williamsburg Bridge on a train of R-16s marked as a #15. Later, we found out about W. 4th St. and its two levels of track. We wanted to take an A train back to Port Authority, but were on the 6th Ave. platform watching one D train after another go by. Finally, someone directed us upstairs to the 8th Ave. level, and a few minutes later an A train pulled in. When it skipped 23rd St., albeit at a crawl, I was hooked on the A line right then and there. OK, A trains run on the inner tracks, I said to myself. Locals are unacceptable unless there is no other option.
From then on, I looked forward to Saturday and going to New York. My folks didn't understand why I was suddenly so enthusiatic about going to Saturday school. It didn't hurt that I did very well in that school as well, and made many new friends in the process. I immersed myself in the subway, studying maps and learning how to get from point A to point B, preferably on an express. And it didn't take long before I was a regular fixture at the railfan window after experiencing it for the first time on September 5, 1967.
There were other firsts along the way: first CPW express run on a prewar D train on 11/24/67, the first of many dashes I would take over the years, most of them on A trains of R-10s. First express run in Queens in May of 1968 on an E train. First time on the IRT to the Bronx Zoo on 8/9/67.
After 1970, subway rides became less frequent, as the school moved to Richmond Hill and my father would drive us there. I didn't set foot on the subway at all in 1974 and 1975. By 1977, I was coming down to the city every so often once again, and subway rides were a part of every visit. Of course, by then, the graffiti epidemic had reared its ugly head, and I found the scribbling and "artwork" to be repulsive. I came out to Colorado in 1980, and it wasn't until 1984 that I would ride on the New York subway again after a four-year absense. Since then, I've made it back at least once a year, and while old favorites such as the R-10s are gone, subway rides take up a great deal of my time while in the city. Now if they could only speed up the trains just a tad....
Let's face it: I am a subway buff and express addict for life.
We moved to Bell Park Manor Terrace (Hillside & Springfield) when I was two and a half in 1952. My Dad worked on the Upper East Side (91st st. & Park) so we used the IND out of 179th St. The R1-R9's were the trains of my childhood. As far back as I can remember I liked riding the subway. Before I was four I must have been taken on the E or F train because at four years old my nursery school was taken for a subway ride and I remember it not being a new thing for me. My parents would take me up front and let me look out the window back then too - maybe before I was five. At around five my mother would bring along a little overnight suitcase so I could stand on it and look out the window all the way into the city when we went to see my Dad. We transferred to the Flushing Line at Roosevelt Ave. and then to the BMT at Queens Plaza to change at 59th St. for an uptown Lexington local to where my Dad worked. I remember the R-12's/14's on the Flushing Line as a young child. Unfortunately I have no clear memory of what kind of BMT trains we caught at Queens Plaza (ABs, D-Types); I only remember the rattan seats, yellow lightbulbs, and fans. Also I cannot remember what kind of IRT cars we rode on the Lex up to 86th St.; maybe that was because it was only three stops, it was always the middle of the rush hour and as a small child I was crushed into the middle of the crowd. I only remember once or twice looking out the front window on the Lex and it was very dirty, much dirtier than the R1/9s windows (a Hi-V train that turned up there irregularly maybe/hopefully?); once also to 86th St. we rode something that had a traction motor hum that was *much* louder than the R1/9s and seemed like it was going to fall apart every time it stopped or started up. On one of our family trips into the city in '62 (we'd already moved out to Suffolk in 1957) we brought home a subway map. I would pore over it and study it, asking my Dad which lines we'd been on for such and such a trip we took. I became permanently hooked when I read Robert Daly's "World Beneath the City", the chapter, 'Birth Pangs of the IRT' detailed opening Day on the IRT. So the subway had a history, boy, that was something! Then came a report I wrote in Junior High school when I wrote to the Transit Authority for information. Then I began writing letters to it's public relations office with the usual questions, "what kind of car was..., and what year was such and such..." Don Harold (I can never thank you enough Don!!) answered many of my letters with informative replies. Then visits to the office at 11th or 12th floor at Jay Street, and finally joining the E.R.A. at 15 or 16.
I want to thank all of you who posted in this thread in the last four days. It really developed into a long thread, The last time I checked there were more than 80 different posts. I found it very interesting in that we individually explained how we became railfans as well as some of our experiences in getting involved in the subways and els.
Thanks Again!
Karl, Boy did you started something ! Personally I was a casual rail fan until "SubTalk". That's right, did a few Steam museums & had a collection of HO freight/passenger trains, also enjoyed riding the PCCs in Boston and LIRR/Subways in NYC, but not much more then that BS ... Before Subtalk .... Thanks Dave .... I think.
Mr t__:^)
It has become my favorite thread, perhaps because of all of the response. If it wasn't for Dave though, we wouldn't have had a place to post all of the responses.
How about you, Thurston, When did you first get interested in trains?
Actually love of B-I-G stuff started with boats. My home in CT overlooks the CT river. I use to go down & wave to the tug boats. On the other side of the river is a freight line now inactive.
After high school I got a job in downtown Boston & fell in love with the PCCs, incl. the "Dallas Car" that I took to college. Then I moved to NYC & took the R-33s from Sunnyside to Times Sq. for about six years. At that time I also got to ride the old INDs (R-9 etc.) on the way to Brooklyn Poly Tech & even took one of the last trips on a "Q" via the old Myrtle Ave line. Then there was 15 years "off-line". 1982 began 11 years of LIRR and Red Birds to 116th St. Going uptown on 1/2/3 was reverse commuting so it was less stressful then most.
Now here I am back in the transportation industry (the 15 years was with Pan Am). I look forward to business trips to Manhattan or Brooklyn via mass transit (I'm a little "suit" so I don't have a company car). Going and comming part of the trip includes a ride on one of our coaches which is sometime management should do anyway. The running joke is my expense report that includes a "Fun Pass" to cover the cost of transportation. Many here in College Point know of my fashion with subways, especially if I bum a ride in because I going on a "Field Trip" after work or if I don't ride back in the company car after the AM meeting (i.e. go to lunch & take mass transit back to work).
I feel fortunate ... I like my job, like working in NYC & look forward to riding mass transit (except the Hippos ... sorry about that, I couldn't resist !)
Mr t__:^)
I Loved Pan Am, I worked for National in LA and then Pan Am after the Merger . Had fun at National. I still have a T Shirt I got back in 1974 with the National Sunburst that says I'M BOB FLY ME
Pan Am was very good to me for most of the 15 years I was there. Saw the first 747 in commercial service, got inside the Russian SST. Got my 4 year degree in their cargo bldg. at night (a bunch of us got Queensboro & Bernard Baruch to offer classes in the 60s & 70s). The flight benifits were great too ... took my 3 month old twins to the beach in Fla.
Mr t__:^)
Last evening, I was in the IND/World Trade Center complex, admiring Oculus. Walking down the corridor from the big mosaic to the terminal fare control area, I saw a group of three people standing around smoking. I said to myself, "Wouldn't it be nice if a policeman wandered by?" Just down the hall next to the MVMs, I saw two police officers, and you guessed it, they were standing around smoking.
What would YOU have done?
a) Told the officers there were some people smoking down the corridor.
b) Gone back to the people and told them there were some police officers down the hall - watch out!
c) Ignored everything.
d) Other?
Sarge? Your thoughts?
Hey Todd, are you cutting into my exam prep thing?
d) make a citizen's arrest of the 3 people and the 2 police officers, and be sure to first alert WCBS to the fact that you might be a little late with your next weather forecast.
e) ask the 3 people for a cigarette and light up also, realizing that in the new millennium smoking is probably good for your health.
This is NYC. Ignore it and remain intact. I only get involved if it's my train or if I'm being threatened with phisical harm.
C. I don't want to get shot.
The cops were smoking?
What would YOU have done?
a) Told the officers there were some people smoking down the corridor.
b) Gone back to the people and told them there were some police officers down the hall - watch out!
c) Ignored everything.
d) Other?
d) Other: Ignore what was going on at the time and make it known to the TA and the media when I got home. Hopefully, that would prevent a repeat performance. I am an ex-smoker. When I used to smoke, I never dared to light up in the subway, except on fan trips, where it was toleratd in the 1970's. As of May 8, 2000, it will be 6 years since I had a cigarette. I try to stay away from cigarette smoke, because I'm afraid too much second-hand smoke will make me go back to it. Its really funny. I've tried to quit many times, with no success. When I was diagnosed with hypertention, I went cold turkey. My doctor didn't give me a prescription for the patch. I'm not going to say it was easy. No, it was a living hell. You have to want to give it up for your own reasons, not because you're under pressure from loved ones. They all tell you to take it one minute at a time, one day at a time. I did the opposite. I just kept telling myself that I can never have another cigarette, ever again. After the first month it became slightly easier, with the craving diminishing as each month went by. At the one-year mark, I was able to say I didn't crave cigs anymore. After a year, you're past the danger point of going back, as long as you don't keep subjecting yourself to the smoke around you. That's one fear that I still have. That's why I try to keep away from smokers. I'm glad I'm off of it, not only for my hypertention, but I don't have the chronic bronchitis (smoker's hack) anymore. To all the non-smokers out there, as an ex-smoker, I can tell you that the worst thing you can do is tell a smoker that cigarettes are bad for his health and that he should quit. It only enrages smokers. If a smoker wants to quit for his own reasons, he'll quit. No amount of badgering is going to make him quit. BTW, I began smoking at age 17 in 1971. I smoked 3 packs a day until 1994.
From
Three cheers for you! I didn't smoke for nearly as many years as you did (just when I was in high school and college) but I understand what you're going through. I've been without a puff for about 24 years now, and being around it still bothers me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've never smoked. My father still smokes, having been diagnosed with the early stages of emphysema. His mother, and sister both died of cancer (it wasn't pretty) and my Grandfather (his father-in-law) died of pulmunary arrest brought on by his emphysema.
-Hank
I've never smoked. My father still smokes, having been diagnosed with the early stages of emphysema. His mother, and sister both died of cancer (it wasn't pretty) and my Grandfather (his father-in-law) died of pulmunary arrest brought on by his emphysema.
-Hank
My father and everyone on his side of the family died if heart disease. My father had a triple bypass with aorta valve replacement, only to have a silent heart attack 7 years later and then a stroke that caused congestive heart failure and death within 6 months. All my grandparents died of heart attacks. My mother has hypertention. In 1994, I was diagnosed with hypertention. With my family history, that's enough to make anyone quit smoking. I went cold turkey after 23 years and have been off almost 6 years. My father was a cigar smoker. He quit after his heart surgery. I smoked cigarettes. I'm 45. Because I smoked, I still have a chance of getting something smoke-related down the road, although that chance is reduced because I quit.Why did I start in the first place? My father smoked, plus I wanted to ge cool, like every other teenager.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I've never smoked either, and am extremely dead set against smoking. I stop short of preaching sermons, as I feel it's a matter of choice. If you choose to do so, it's your business. Just don't do it in my house or my car. Cigarette smoke and I don't get along. I still remember when my father smoked, and he quit when I was 5 (right after my mother started driving).
What were they smoking?
It wasn't sausage.
-Hank :)
d) Ignore them. I would probably ignore them. As long as their not causing trouble or anything, I don't think it would really be my job to report them. Especially if there were two cops also smoking. The cops for one would have blown me off if I told them that these ppl were smoking. Isn't that what you did Todd?
Some friends and I were heading back to Brooklyn Heights one morning at about 4am from Rockaway Beach, and we changed for the shuttle at Broad Channel. I had just moved to the city 1 year before this, so I thought smoking was taken the same way as it is at the commuter stations: "You can smoke on the platform as long as it is outside, and just put it out if you see a cop, out of consideration"(or something to that effect). Well was I wrong, I was able to ditch mine, but 3 undercovers got 2 of my pals. They had to go to the Transit Court on Fulton St. And pay a $50 fine. I guess we learned our lesson. And I am not saying they dont deserve it. However, the cop told us that normally they don't bust people at outdoor platforms, however they did have a big quota to fill.
Funny, people smoke on the platforms (even in the subway) all the time here in Chicago, and I've never seen anyone get arrested for it. CTA has even put up signs on all the platforms saying "No Smoking" but no one seems to care.
-Jacob
There is no smoking anywhere on TA property.
I've seen tickets given to people stading on a stair case to the street, one or two steps down from the street.
This dosn't explain the large amount of butts on the track in front of the tower at Delancy St. (J)/
As I've said before, here in Chicago, the CTA doesen't care at all about smoking. They've installed signs, but I've NEVER seen anyone get arrested, even when smoking around CTA employees.
Do the R142s have battery systems that allow them to continue to the next stop in case of a power outage? I understand this is a feature of the R110s - did it make it past the prototype stage?
Out of curiosity, are there cars in service in other systems with that feature? It sounds very costly.
Batteries are used on subway cars for emergency lighting, as well as controller circuits. I don't believe such batteries are intended for, or are capable of, providing propulsion. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected in advance.
Huh? I don't recall that feature of the R-110 prototypes.
The amount of energy which would need to be stored in a battery
to allow power-off operation to the next station would be huge.
Well, that makes sense to me, too, but here's where I got
the info about the R110s:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110.html
Scroll down to Features of Both Trains, and it's the fifth bullet.
Perhaps that feature never even made it past the drawing
board on the R110s...
Well, that makes sense to me, too, but here's where I got
the info about the R110s:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110.html
Scroll down to Features of Both Trains, and it's the fifth bullet.
Perhaps that feature never even made it past the drawing
board on the R110s...
I read it. I don't believe it is possible. The battery housing the kind of power needed to propel a train couldn't fit on the train. BTW, lets get some stats here. Trains operate on 600V DC. How much power (wattage) does it take to move a typical length subway train? Use the Ohm's Law equation: Power (wattage) = voltage X current (or ampreage). Or, let me pose it to you this way - How much current does a typical subway train draw when it is moving. Once you know how much current a 10-car train draws when moving, then you have to know how many amp-hours the 600 volt battery is rated at. That will tell you how long you can power an electrical device off of the battery before depleting its charge. We're not talking about a golf cart. We're talking about a 10-car subway train. No, it would be impossible for a train to pack the kind of battery power to enable it to proceed to the next station in event of a power failure.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(The feasibility of batteries to allow trains to continue to the next station when 3rd rail power is lost.)
I don't know. It certainly would be a very costly feature, with limited usefulness - how often does this happen? And if a train is really stalled, there are emergency escape walkways and exits...
But just for the sake of argument... They do have working electric cars. If I'm not mistaken, price is the main reason they're not very common yet. And if you're spending $2 million on a subway car, why not $250,000 more in the name of safety?
Wouldn't electric car technology scale to a subway car? I realize the subway car is much heavier, but you also have much more room under a subway car for bigger batteries. And the technology for power-to-battery-to-motor as a standard mode of operation is already commplace - Honda has started advertising a production hybrid car that uses this very same technology.
Other factors. New battery technoglogy is pretty amazing. I have no idea how well the technology scales to the type of amp-hours we're talking about, but I know my Li-ion cell phone battery is about the size and weight of a credit card, yet can power the phone for 2-3 days normal use.
Plus, we're talking about maintaining speed, not accelerating. All it has to do is keep going for a mile or less, then stop. Maintaining speed does not involve nearly as much power as changing speed.
Maybe it's possible? ...
I don't know. It certainly would be a very costly feature, with limited usefulness - how often does this happen? And if a train is really stalled, there are emergency escape walkways and exits...
But just for the sake of argument... They do have working electric cars. If I'm not mistaken, price is the main reason they're not very common yet. And if you're spending $2 million on a subway car, why not $250,000 more in the name of safety?
Wouldn't electric car technology scale to a subway car? I realize the subway car is much heavier, but you also have much more room under a subway car for bigger batteries. And the technology for power-to-battery-to-motor as a standard mode of operation is already commplace - Honda has started advertising a production hybrid car that uses this very same technology.
Other factors. New battery technoglogy is pretty amazing. I have no idea how well the technology scales to the type of amp-hours we're talking about, but I know my Li-ion cell phone battery is about the size and weight of a credit card, yet can power the phone for 2-3 days normal use.
Plus, we're talking about maintaining speed, not accelerating. All it has to do is keep going for a mile or less, then stop. Maintaining speed does not involve nearly as much power as changing speed.
Maybe it's possible? ...
I would tend to doubt it. I know about electric cars. You can't compare an electric car to a 10-car subway train. I remember what some of the Shore Line Trolley Museum people said. Its too costly to regularly run rapid transit cars, and they run single cars, not 10-car trains. If a rapid transit car uses alot more power than a trolley, then how can a battery supply enough power to run a train to the nearest station? At Shore Line, they run the Redbird with no lights on, just to conserve power. I don't know what the figures are, but I'm sure that a ten-car subway train uses a massive amount of power, even to go a few hundred feet.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well, it certainly says so on the mta web site....does anyone
currently in CED know the answer?
You may not be aware of this but long before automobiles were
being rolled off mass production lines, there were battery
powered streetcars. They didn't work very well.
I don't have a calculator handy. Would anyone like to solve
the following equation? How much energy does a subway
car (call it 40 tons) moving at 20 MPH possess (use the
formula 1/2M*V^2) ? Or better yet, let's say in the worst
case a subway car would have to ascend 75 feet to make it
into the nearest station from a river tube. How much
potential energy is that? (M*G*H, where M is the mass in kilograms,
G is 9.8, and H is the height in meters, then the answer is in
Joules (a Joule is a watt-second))
Next, lookup up the energy density of your favorite battery
chemistry....lead-acid, nickel cadmium, nickel metal hydride (forget about anything Lithium, too $$$$). Divide Joules of required energy
the the energy density (given in Joules/Liter or Joules/kilogram)
and we'll see how much battery that amounts too.
I don't know the calculations, but I do know this: according to Car and Driver, approximately 22% of the weight of the new Honda hybrid electric is from the batteries, and the Honda is constructed almost entirely of ultra-light aluminum alloys and carbon-fibre material. The batteries take up nearly 40% of the total volume of the vehicle. Acceleration from a standing start uses the auxiliary gasoline engine because the electric motor would completely drain the batteries if asked to start the car and accelerate to 50 mph on level ground, and would take approximately 40 seconds to do so. Driven under ideal highway conditions, the vehicle has acceleration characteristics that are only slightly worse than a 3-cylinder Suzuki Swift (a.k.a. Geo Metro). It will cruise at 65, but not for very long as it will quickly run out of juice.
Translating that to a subway car: Give up 50% of your passenger space, maybe more, and you might be able to get the car up out of a river tube. 25% would probably get you from 23rd to 28th Street. Oh, and don't forget, the cost of the car would double or triple and the power consumption to move just the physical car would double too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This brings up the very important factor of cost and weight;as I`ve read the trains on the 7 line when air-conditioned required an increase in motor hp from 100 to 115 per motor.this translates into an ongoing cost in energy and maintenance.
Even if battery poering where possible it would only apply to this small number of new cars and probably not be applicable to the majority of older stock.
I suggest that equipping the tunnels and stations with emergency
lighting would have more impact on safety.
his brings up the very important factor of cost and weight;as I`ve read the trains on the 7 line when
air-conditioned required an increase in motor hp from 100 to 115 per motor.
Steve? I don't think the motors on the IRT redbird fleet were
changed when A/C was installed in the early to mid 1980s.
The move to 115HP motors came later, during GOH.
A typical subway car cruises at around 100 amps of
consumption for all four motors. It used to be twice that
but it's another thread. Voltage:300 (motors in series on
a truck) X Amperes:50X2 = 30Kw. Just at cruising. To accelerate the motors peak out at 650 amps. Factor that in.
The lights and air conditioing use less, but factor in an
air brake compressor and low voltage supply as well.
Multiply that times eight or ten.
Millions of watts.
To feasibly do this the train would have to have an
aluminum body, aluminum trucks, carbon fiber everywhere
and it still would weigh 18 or 20 tons. Jeff's formula
made it clear. Excersise in futility.
A typical subway car cruises at around 100 amps of
consumption for all four motors. It used to be twice that
but it's another thread. Voltage:300 (motors in series on
a truck) X Amperes:50X2 = 30Kw. Just at cruising. To accelerate the motors peak out at 650 amps. Factor that in.
The lights and air conditioing use less, but factor in an
air brake compressor and low voltage supply as well.
Multiply that times eight or ten.
Millions of watts.
To feasibly do this the train would have to have an
aluminum body, aluminum trucks, carbon fiber everywhere
and it still would weigh 18 or 20 tons. Jeff's formula
made it clear. Excersise in futility.
That's the point that I've been trying to make since I first responded in this thread about voltage, current and power. Absolutely impossible. Its like trying to use batteries to power everything in your house in event of a power failure, only multiples worse. Just like they have nuclear powered submarines, maybe they can stick a small nuclear engine on board the train to kick in in event of a power failure.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
First, I really like your idea of pedal power. I don't know why I didn't think of it. I ride about 10 miles on a day on my bike.
Your pedal power could actually do the job. First we would have to remove all the motors and compressors and all the heavy duty parts of the train. Then we continue the trend of late to make the train out of styrofoam. No airconditioning, no lights. Just basic transportation. Anyone who wants to sit down has to pedal. Some of the people standing will have to man the hand brakes, while others will open and close the gates, and still others will pull the train line rope signalling the doors are closed. Tremendous amounts of money will be saved on power. People living along the way won't get radio interference when the contact shoes arc. Sitting customers will get much needed exercise to improve the cardiovascular systems. What more could you ask for?
First, I really like your idea of pedal power. I don't know why I didn't think of it. I ride about 10 miles on a day on my bike.
Your pedal power could actually do the job. First we would have to remove all the motors and compressors and all the heavy duty parts of the train. Then we continue the trend of late to make the train out of styrofoam. No airconditioning, no lights. Just basic transportation. Anyone who wants to sit down has to pedal. Some of the people standing will have to man the hand brakes, while others will open and close the gates, and still others will pull the train line rope signalling the doors are closed. Tremendous amounts of money will be saved on power. People living along the way won't get radio interference when the contact shoes arc. Sitting customers will get much needed exercise to improve the cardiovascular systems. What more could you ask for?
Styrofoam trains don't need to be made by Bombardier or Kawasaki either. They can be made by Fischer Price.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Fair enough. I don't have great knowledge of the principles involved, and what you say makes sense.
I was just inquiring about what I had read on this site re: the R-110 feature list. I wonder where that info came from... And I thought the electric car technology might work, but I'm not any kind of expert, and you guys know more than I do - I trust your calculations.
Too bad - it's a neat idea...
Something about this topic of battery powered R142's tickles me.
Is there any chance that the specs on the R142 actual subway car got mixed up with the MTA battery powered R142 toy that they are hoping to market in Toys-R-Us? I've heard that they are putting the toy R142 through the same rigorous testing as the actual subway cars, and they should be out on the market by Christmas 2005.
I think most of the recent cars have capacitor storage devices which store enough energy to keep the lights on when the cars cross over a switch or lose contact with the third rail. But even that is for a brief period of time. If I am not mistaken, usually the air conditioning drops out, because there is not enough energy to run that.
I was in Grand Central Station the other day, and while I was looking for the Museum store, I went into a science store right across from it. They had a searchlight and portable radio that are powered by a hand operated generator which must store a charge in either a battery or capacitor. The radio works for up to an hour on one charging. When I looked at the country of manufacture on the radio, it said South Africa. That struck me strange,until I remembered that some man had been working on just such a self powered radio for people who lived in remote African villages, where batteries and electricity were out of the question. I read about this several years ago, and wonder if this comes out of that project. The radios were about $70.
I made a connection between this and our problem with a subway car losing power. Perhaps if they had hand operated generators at every seat, then in the event of a power failure, customers could be trained to started cranking the nearest generator, in this way providing power for the stalled train. Perhaps people who couldn't afford to pay the fare, could be put in a special power car, where they would have to pay their way by generating power on one of these hand generators.
Something about this topic of battery powered R142's tickles me.
Is there any chance that the specs on the R142 actual subway car got mixed up with the MTA battery powered R142 toy that they are hoping to market in Toys-R-Us? I've heard that they are putting the toy R142 through the same rigorous testing as the actual subway cars, and they should be out on the market by Christmas 2005.
I think most of the recent cars have capacitor storage devices which store enough energy to keep the lights on when the cars cross over a switch or lose contact with the third rail. But even that is for a brief period of time. If I am not mistaken, usually the air conditioning drops out, because there is not enough energy to run that.
I was in Grand Central Station the other day, and while I was looking for the Museum store, I went into a science store right across from it. They had a searchlight and portable radio that are powered by a hand operated generator which must store a charge in either a battery or capacitor. The radio works for up to an hour on one charging. When I looked at the country of manufacture on the radio, it said South Africa. That struck me strange,until I remembered that some man had been working on just such a self powered radio for people who lived in remote African villages, where batteries and electricity were out of the question. I read about this several years ago, and wonder if this comes out of that project. The radios were about $70.
I made a connection between this and our problem with a subway car losing power. Perhaps if they had hand operated generators at every seat, then in the event of a power failure, customers could be trained to started cranking the nearest generator, in this way providing power for the stalled train. Perhaps people who couldn't afford to pay the fare, could be put in a special power car, where they would have to pay their way by generating power on one of these hand generators.
How about foot-powered generators - petal power. The passengers can make like Fred Flintstone - Yabba Dabba Doo!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"I think most of the recent cars have capacitor storage devices which store enough energy to keep the lights on when the cars cross over a switch or lose contact with the third rail."
Another very long Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!
There is no capacitive storage device to keep the lighs on, on any NYCT car. The storage device that keeps the lights on is called a battery. The fluorescent lights are fed not from 600 volts DC but from an inverter ballast. This device takes 37 volts DC and converts it to around Hi AC at about 1500Hz. Therefore crossing over 3rd rail gaps has no effect on the lights. This is true on all cars except the R-33/R-36 WF cars.
Nah, I still like everybody-out-and-push better.
Nah, I still like everybody-out-and-push better.
How about a team of horses. Horse cars - 21st Century Style. Make them white Arabian Stallions.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I heard about this radio approx 3yrs ago on a BBC World Service programe at the time it was explained that the radio is powered by a clockwork connected mechanically to a generator. I suppose the use a combination of mechanical gouvernor and electronic regulator to provide fairly constant voltage to the radio`s eletronics.
Sure wish I`d invested in this company!
While working Christmas night I decided to wander out of my Pct and down Fulton St to the NEW station at Franklyn Av. I only saw the outside as I never got out of the car but I was very impressed with what I saw. I saw probably more than most railfans because most railfans don't leave the system so they don't see the outside. The Building was impressive in the style of the old BMT station buildings, however even better than most. (I pass Buswick/Aberdeen on my way to work everyday and it can't hold a candle to Franklyn) I peaked inside and the tile work and stained glass looked great. Also the pedestrian overpass over Fulton was very nice. I assume that just leads to the city-bound IND station. I was going to go down to the rest of the line but we got a call so I had to scoot back!!!!
I see it everyday. BTW, whenever I ride the IRT into Frankin, there's no mention of the transfer to the shuttle. It is like it dont exist.....
3TM
Yeah, the freggin' nimrods at 370 Jay Street forgot to indicate the new IRT/Franklin Shuttle connection in the brochures available at the station booths along the line. Total idiocy.
Doug aka BMTman
Anybody who uses the transfer doesn't have to hear the announcement, trust me, they know!!! Its not exactly a tourist spot!!!
They did a nice job with Franklin Avenue - the new stained glass windows, the Sea Beach/Brighton-style BMT tile, and the overall architecture are most impressive. They should plant some trees along the east side of the El to replace those that were removed during the reconstruction.
BTW - Bushwick-Aberdeen is just a squat brick building on Bushwick Avenue and DeSales Place, nothing much too look at. It's a little better inside, with fancy ironwork and ceiling ornaments. Bushwick-Aberdeen's most noteworthy feature is the 16-color porcelain mosaic frieze, ca. 1928. One of the best on the entire Canarsie Line, and one of only three that are cut porcelain. There are even mosaics on the tiled pillars (which are so because the station is underneath buildings).
Wayne
They should plant some trees along the east side of the El to replace those that were removed during the reconstruction.
I agree. The only problem is that it takes a tree a good amount of years before you can get decent shade and covering out of it. I don't think they would be able to get mature trees to plant there. They would probably be small seedlings. The next generation may be able to enjoy them. One thing we don't want there is those weed-like Ailanthus trees. Sycamores would be nice.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
ELMS would be even better! :o>
Wayne
The LIRR has published its New Year's Eve timetables, effective
Dec 31 through 6:30am on Jan 1. I picked up a set at Penn
Station yesterday, and have looked them over. Here are some
observations. I'd love to hear others' thoughts!
Long Beach
Two inbound trains (5:21 and 6:55pm) run express from Valley
Stream and bypass Jamaica. Hourly post-midnight return
service, including express Penn-to-Valley Stream at 3:29
and 4:59am
Port Washington
Inbound late evening service includes two an hour from Port
Washington, and two additional per hour starting at Great
Neck. Eleven return trains midnight to 6:30am.
Far Rockaway
The inbound evening trains go to Brooklyn. Change at Jamaica!
Seven return trips midnight to 6:30am, a few of which require
a change at Valley Stream. If you miss the 12:14am, the next
one is a long wait -- 1:46am!
Hempstead
Sparce inbound service -- just hourly, most terminating
in Brooklyn. The 6:48pm runs express from Hollis to Penn.
The last one, 10:58, arrives at Penn (with a change at
Jamaica) at 11:54pm. If it's a few minutes late, you'll
celebrate the stroke-of-midnight in the tunnel! Return
service is at 90-minute intervals until 6:30am.
West Hempstead
As expected, not much service. Catch the 8:16 or 10:32pm,
change at Valley Stream AND Jamaica to get to NYC, or you miss
it! The really bad news is you can't get home. There's a
12:00 midnight departure -- and that's it!
Babylon
Three to four trains per hour inbound, and 12 return trains
from midnight to 6:30am.
Port Jefferson
Slim pickin's inbound from Port Jefferson, but if you take the
1:10pm it looks like it's a dual-mode. Huntington service is
twice an hour, including an interesting 8:18pm train that makes
all stops to New Hyde Park, then runs express to Penn (bypassing
Jamaica). Returning, the first post-midnight train that goes
to Port Jeff is at 1:46am, and the next two are at 3:49am
and (yawn) 6:12am. Huntingtonians do better with twice-an-hour
service.
Ronkonkoma
Inbound service approximately hourly, with an interesting
train starting at 7:20pm at Farmindale, stopping only at
Bethpage and Hicksville before running express to Penn. The
7:41pm from Ronk goes local to Bethpage, then express to
Penn. Heading home after midnight, there are two an hour,
most of which run express Penn to Hicksville. Oh yeah --
Greenport service? NADA. (Well, except the 9:30pm departure
from Greenport, conveniently arriving at Penn at 12:29am.
You can celebrate New Year's somewhere between Mineola
and Jamaica on that one!)
Montalk
If you're coming all the way from Montalk, it's 11:25am or
else. There's a 3:16pm from East Hampton, and a 9:04pm
from Speonk that will work. No dual-mode other than the
6:11am from Speonk. Eastbound after midnight, there's
the 12:27am local to Montalk, and a 2:42am to Speonk.
Oyster Bay
Hourly inbound service (no dual-modes evident), with the
last train that will make it 9:29pm out of OB. Not much
service heading home -- 12:37am and 3:08am. By the way,
that 12:37am connecting train out of Penn is going to be
awfully crowded - it goes to Babylon, with connections
to Montalk, Oyster Bay, and Hempstead!
Wouldn't suprise me if there are fewer people in Times Square than last year. Locals are shying away, and the hotels got so greedy that there might be empty rooms.
I'll go to Grand Army Plaza, maybe, but my wife has to be at work at 8:00 a.m. the next day, and we still don't know about the B69.
Enjoyed the analysis, Todd. Perhaps I'm just getting old, but I can't help but think that this is a lot of overkill.
I noticed another interesting extra train -- 4:27 Mineola to Penn with stops at Merillon Av., New Hyde Park, Floral Park, Queens Village, Jamaica and Penn. (how likely is it that all the Floral Park passengers will know to be on the rarely used Main Line inbound platform when this extra pulls in?).
With all those express trains at 3 and 4 AM, I'll bet the taxi companies on LI are going to have a field day. "Isn't this the Ronkonkoma train", "Nope, 3:29 Long Beach express Valley Stream next"
Chuck
First I would like to say Happy Hoidays and safe and Healthy New Year.And the other things I would like to know is 3rd rail power and the power for signals separate?
Happy holidays to you too. Last I remember, they are
very separate systems. 3rd rail power is 600volts
DC, and if I am not mistaken signal voltage is a
much higher AC voltage--- maybe 2400 volts. I may
be wrong on the exact voltage but one thing I do
know is that
WATTS THE UNIT OF POWER
Hey, html works. First time I tried it.
Oh no, now that HeyPaul knows HTML theres no telling what his posts will look like!!!
I like the way N Broadway Line responds in such instances:
Ooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooo.
Signal power was originally 24vAC. Or is that 25Hz, 120vAC? I'm not sure. 2400vAC is WAY off!
-Hank
We covered this thread about a month ago. The simple answer is
yes.
I am going to a Islanders game this Wednesday (No insults to them please, a huge fan despite their record). I was wondering if there is any easier way then the LIRR to Hempstead and then the N70, N71 or N72. Does anyone know of any direct bus from the city?
-Harry
P.S. Sorry about how tourist like this post is, I just didn't know where else to ask.
LETS GO RANGERS! LETS GO RANGERS! That's the only way I could think of going from the city. If you could borrow a car from somebody, you're better off.
You could take the N6 from the F train/179th & Hillside to Hempstead Terminal, then transfer to the N70/71/72. With an unlimited or FunPass Metrocard, it's all the same fare. But from a time standpoint, the LIRR to Hempstead is definitely faster.
BTW, I'm also an Islander fan, so I applaud your loyalty despite the bad times we're going through now.
I remember when the Islanders came into being in 1972. During their first seaeon, they won something like 12 games all season long. They have to be doing better than that now.
Not much. The four Stanley Cups seem like a lifetime ago. Kind of the same thing with the Rangers 1994 victory.
Actually that isn't a bad way. The 70-72 is pretty frequent and it isn't too long a ride from the terminal. (by the LIRR) But you should check out when the last bus goes to Hempstead to make sure they're still running when the game lets out. I think they run to about 11. (The N-6 is 24 hr) BTW, a cab would take about 5 minutes (barring traffic getting into the pkg lot-however with the Islanders there probably wouldn't be any) and the fare won't be more than $6. (I live in the next town and its $6 from Hemp. so a shorter distance should be less)
I heard some from friends that there used to be free rides on new years eve/day on the subway because the MTA didn't want to advocate drunk driving. Is this true? Also, if I came home on the A going into Brooklyn around 3 AM on new years do you think it would be too dangerous?
Harry, I don't know about the free rides, but I can't imagine riding the A into Brooklyn early New Year's morning would be any more dangerous than riding it early any other morning - possibly less so, because there will probably be more people riding than usual.
On the other hand, I wouldn't ride ANY subway line at that hour of the morning without being in a group of friends, preferably ones at least six feet tall and capable of beating Jesse Ventura in the ring.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know. I have NEVER had a problem when riding at 3:00a. The troublemakers all seem to be out during the rush hours or the late evening.
Maybe it's because I think that I look like a good target (middle-aged heavy-set man, walks with a limp) even when I'm not in tourist mode. I just know that I've only ridden a couple of times before 7 AM or after 10 PM, and the after-10 ride has only been from the theatre district back to NYP to catch NJT back to New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a cop I do know there is usually several gunpoint robberies above the Utica Av Station by Boys & Girls HS each day. The perps usually follow the victim upstairs to the street. However percentage-wise 2 or 3 robberies a day out of thousands of riders isn't bad.
<< As a cop I do know there is usually several gunpoint robberies above the Utica Av Station by Boys & Girls HS each day. >>
If there are several robberies at that location each day, why doesn't the NYPD station an officer there on a regular basis? If manpower is a consideration (isn't it always?) why not random patrols several time during the day?
Yes the TA did give free rides on New Years eve. They did this in the 80's. I am not shore of the years but I do remember riding the train one year for free.
NOT this year! The New Years Eve Brochure says trains will run 5-10 minute interval till 3am then 6-12 minute intervals. Bus service will also be added on some sections of some lines.
The brochure says "Buy your MetroCard early to avoid standing in line"
Yesterday I worked at Marcy on the J. I kept hearing BMT and IRT on the same frequency. Do the 7 and Eastern BMT share the same frequency?
Yes, the #7 uses the B1 frequency rather than the A division frequncy.
Apparently it is easier because the #7 is physically separate from the rest of the IRT and is also a frequent user of BMT tracks (to CI shops).
Yes, the #7 uses the B1 frequency rather than the A division frequncy.
Apparently it is easier because the #7 is physically separate from the rest of the IRT and is also a frequent user of BMT tracks (to CI shops).
Operationally, isn't the 7 considered B-Division because it its only link with the system is with the B-Division (N-Broadway/Astoria)?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The 7 is indeed part of the IRT. T/Os and C/Rs who work in the the IRT work the 7 line. Crews who work in the IND/BMT can not(unless they pick over and are trained on the equipment).
The 7 is indeed part of the IRT. T/Os and C/Rs who work in the the IRT work the 7 line. Crews who work in the IND/BMT can not(unless they pick over and are trained on the equipment).
Then why does the 7 use B-Division radio frequencies?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I would guess it has do do with where the transmitters are located.
-Hank
I took a short trip to NYC this morning to spend my Macy's Christmas money (got five good flannel shirts for $75 and change - not bad!) and much to my consternation and dismay, found the 9:02AM train out of Babylon (which originates further east) to STILL be made up of those godawful 1955 MP-75 Coaches! I thought by NOW that this would be a Bilevel train but NOPE - along comes Engine 166 still pulling MP-75s.
The report on #2801? UGH! The windows were impossible to see out of, half the lights were out, there was a depression in my seat that seemed to go halfway to China, it bounced up and down like a jack in the box AND it had a rather unpleasant aroma to it. So much for progress. Does anyone know when the Bilevel equipment will be used on this run?
Wayne
I'm going to miss riding around in vestibules. Trust me with the Long Island Railroad's shoddy maintainance, you might choose the MP54s. Imagine the Wep workers in TA outdoing the Car Cleaners at cleaning Tuffak windows with sandpaper while the Car cleaners themselves are supposed to change the light bulbs. We might as well bring back main light reversers.
People never appreciate what they have until its gone. Those cars you hate so much are the last real railroad type cars the LIRR has even though they ruined 'em somewhat by making them look like M-1's (especially the seats) By the way, the new trains are really TRI-Levels!!! There is the door level with a few seats and two other levels, one up & one down. That adds up to three!!!
>>>People never appreciate what they have until its gone. Those cars you hate so much are the last
real railroad type cars the LIRR has even though they ruined 'em somewhat by making them look
like M-1's <<<
Were you on the fantrip in September when they rolled them on all the LIRR major branches, inluding the Port Washington, where they (presumably) had never been before?
No, sorry. I was going to go and something came up.
If I recall I think it was car trouble.
Oh, they've been to PW before.
Remember, the old diesel fleet consisted of a LOT of ex MU cars.
They all consist of ex MU cars now.
I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.
Those cars you hate so much are the last real railroad type cars the LIRR has even though they ruined 'em somewhat by making them look like M-1's (especially the seats).
We don't hate 'em 'cause of what kind of car they are. We hate 'em 'cause they're way, way past their lifespan, they're unpleasant and uncomfortable to ride in, and they haven't been at all maintained.
And personally I like the new cars. The point about maintenance is true: If the LIRR takes no better care of the new equipment than the old, it too will become uncomfortable, unpleasant, dirty and smelly. But I *gotta* think they'll do somewhat better -- now they at least have scheduled maintenance intervals and car-replacement schedules. Don't they?
By the way, the new trains are really TRI-Levels!!! There is the door level with a few seats and two other levels, one up & one down. That adds up to three!!!
[grin] True. Cool. But I betcha SubTalk and the world continues to call 'em bilevels ....
Rather than bi-levels or tri-levels, wouldn't they really qualify as "split-levels"? Now Long Islanders can ride split-level trains to their split-level homes.
Chuck
Good name, for now they are split levels
12/29/99
They're not "Tri-Levels" or "Split levels" !
Think of them as Bi-Levels with an entrance foyer!
Bill
Newkirk
I do not hate the MP-75 per se, I merely hate MP-75s which happen to smell like diaper pails, which seems to be the case with #2801. If they were cleaner, had windows I could see out of, had lights that worked, didn't have such a foul aroma to them, perhaps I would like them more. I DO like the MP-75s which have the tubular light shades (i.e. #2793), and would probably ride in it if it were in the train, conditions nonwithstanding. I also don't like sitting in seats that sag, whether it's an MP-75, M-1 or M-3.
Wayne
Old diesels seem to pop up in unusual places. For example, the evening shuttle to Greenport from Ronkonkoma was one of the first runs to start using bilevels. Yet for some strange reason, the old diesels are still used on Fridays. No one seems to have any idea why.
I'm not sure but isn't there extra trains to Montauk on Fridays? They probably steal the train from the Greenport line. But you're right about them changing equipment. A few months ago I took my wife and kid to the Oyster Festival in Oyster Bay by train from Mineola where I parked both weekend days. We took the exact same scheduled train back both days, the 6:00PM (give or take a few minutes). On Saturday it was a bi tri-level and on Sunday it was an old diesel.
To Dave:
I realize you are busy with the holidays, and that you have taken time to put up my pics, plus loads of pics from the field trip as well. But if you could take the time to put up Mark Feinman's 12 pics of the R142s soon, it would be a great way to ring out '99 here on subtalk.
Thanks for all the hard work you do on here,
Nick
I'll put them up but no offense to Mark they aren't great pictures. As we get better ones I expect these will come down.
-Dave
Any picture will do...I've been waiting soooo looooog to see some new, non computer generated pictures of it.
I'll agree with R68A on this one. Sure, we'll look foward to the better pictures, but for now anything is better than nothing. Thanks for agreeing to put them up, Dave :) -Nick
Well, you're not the only one who is R142 Hungry. Bring 'em on!!!!
-Stef
What do you expect from 'shots in the dark'? Considering the method, they're pretty decent.
-Hank
> What do you expect from 'shots in the dark'? Considering the method,
> they're pretty decent.
I agree, considering the method and the circumstances (dark out, from a parking lot, through a fence, scanned from video tape). I was thinking in terms of these pictures compared to the average quality of the rest of the pictures on the site. I appreciate Mark giving them to me but I'm sure he understands that better quality images should someday displace these...
-Dave
Completely understood.
--Mark
No offense taken. They were snapped from video, taken at night (with "natural" lighting).
--Mark
Relax. With 1000 of them on order, we can flame them as the slow, antiseptic cars we all expect them to be while waxing nostalgic about the redbirds. Just be patient.
The Redbirds aren't dead yet. Rusty, perhaps, but not dead. Love those Redbirds!
Why does it become a major problem to build new rail lines here in New York? Enviormental impact studies,meeting after meeting,design studies and contracts for design studies,neighborhood opions etc etc... Look, this is enough to make anybody thow up their hands and say"forgetaboutit"!!Anyway, the city has many defuct rail lines,mostly LIRR trackage,that can be used for transit routes. IF you and those to totally new ones,you will eventually reach those areas that don't have rail service. The IND second system planed for such a thing.If these route were built with modifications for mordern times,think of all the time that would be saved[from traveling,making connections and tranfering to buses,and 2or 3 fare zones [YES THEY STILL EXIST]].The MTA should consider most of the old 1929 IND system expantion as part of METRO EAST proposal.With this ,the system's route mileage would incress with line serving almost every neighborhood. Think about it. It would be a healthy investment.
There is always talk of using one of the LIRR Bay Ridge branch tracks for a light-rail Brooklyn-Queens line. But that has been on the drawing boards for nearly 20 years.
Now there talk is that some communities where the Bay Ridge runs through are pushing for a bicycle/jogging path that would utilize a section of the Bay Ridge ROW. If this comes about we'd end up seeing the world's longest -- yet narrowest -- city park.
The only other New transit line would be whatever Bob Diamond has planned for his trolley line that recently got the 'nod' from City Hall to run his line on city streets.
Doug aka BMTman
WHAT?! BIKE PATH?! WHO NEEDS THAT!!!??? Rapid transit in the outter boro's is seriously lacking. Even in MANHATTAN itself,there are miles and miles of untaped areas just begging for trains to run there[lower east side,the west side beyond 8th ave,and the upper east side 2nd ave coridor]. The MTA should take a serious look at major expantion in the near future[I MEAN LIKE YESTERDAY!!!]insted of 'stubways'and 1,500 feet connection[i.e. 63rd st.] As I said before in another post ,the METRO EAST Rail lines combined with the modifided IND SECOND SYSTEM could and should bring relief to the untapped reigions within the city.
Why isn't there more new line construction in the outer boro's?
You need not look further than the Laguardia access study. To extend
the N line's elevated structure two blocks further north to Con Ed
owned property and then run on that property to the airport. The last
public hearing in the fall there was almost a riot, yelling,
screaming, lots of cops. Vallone tells the MTA to drop dead, not in
my district. With public and political understanding like that, that's
why they don't build.
.
"Rapid transit in the outter boro's is seriously lacking. Even in
MANHATTAN"
Are you serious TMC? What I understand, Manhattan is tremondously over developed. From upper manhattan to lower Manhattan, you are within 5 blocks from a train station. As for Queens County, Subways service is lacking in almost 75 percent of the borough. As a result, most passengers have to take two modes of transporation (bus/train) to get to/from their homes.
If money is going to be spent for improving transportation, it should began with the borough of Queens, because, it is there where it's needed the most.
N Broadway Local
"Rapid transit in the outter boro's is seriously lacking. Even in
MANHATTAN"
Are you serious TMC? What I understand, Manhattan is tremondously over developed. From upper manhattan to lower Manhattan, you are within 5 blocks from a train station. As for Queens County, Subways service is lacking in almost 75 percent of the borough. As a result, most passengers have to take two modes of transporation (bus/train) to get to/from their homes.
If money is going to be spent for improving transportation, it should began with the borough of Queens, because, it is there where it's needed the most.
Needed but not wanted. Chris R was right when he said that the people in Douglaston or Whitestone would fight to thwart any efforts to extend the 7 to either of those 2 neighborhoods. Its not only Whitestone and Douglaston, its Bayside, Fresh Meadows, Little Neck, just to name a few. Those people like being out of the way. It keeps crime and undesirables out. Douglaston and Little Neck more resemble Nassau County than they do Queens County. Those people want to keep it that way. They don't want their neighborhoods urbanized. I lived in Queens for 13 years. I know what makes Queens tick.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I agree completely. I know someone who lives in Fresh Meadows and just to get to his house by rapid transit from Manhattan takes forever. You can take the Qns surface For $3.00 but that's a rip off especially if you have to take it every day. every time I go out there, I take the F to 179 and then the bus. I really feel sorry for the ppl living in Douglaston. The only "real" way they can get into the city is to take the L.I.R.R unless you wnat to spend a half an hour on the bus. It's ridiculous. Forget about extending the 7 train to 14 Street in NYC, what we really need is an extension to Douglaston. They also need to extend the F train to Fresh Meadows and Hollis.
what we really need is an extension to Douglaston. They also need to extend the F train to Fresh Meadows and Hollis.
But, like I said, the residents of these areas don't want the extensions, just like the people in Staten Island don't want a subway link to their borough.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How about more LIRR Local Service in Queens. Trains that run within the city Limits. Make all Trains that come from Nassau and Suffok Counties a express. Have them make 1 stop at the furthest station out from the city, then let them transfer to a NY Bound train for a intermediate stop. The same with Metro North. especially on the Harlem Division, to ease the Lex Lines. After all they are all MTA Lines
I think Eastern Queens would prefer more LIRR service. The GCT to LIRR connection would allow more trains. Reactivatig the Rockaway line for LIRR service would also be popular, except for the NIMBYs along the line.
Eastern Queens densities are too low to justify subway service, and they don't want them any higher. Subway improvements should be limited to the area west of the Van Wyck. Extending the N to LaGuardia and on to Flushing would be a good start.
[Eastern Queens densities are too low to justify subway service, and they don't want them any higher. Subway improvements should be limited to the area west of the Van Wyck. Extending the N to LaGuardia and on to Flushing would be a good start.]
One proposal I've seen for Eastern Queens would make the Port Washington branch part of the subway system, but as a high amenity, extra fare service to keep out poor people. Standard stock would be used but with commuter style seating, and it would run down 6th Avenue via the 63rd St. tunnel. Entrance would be by standard metrocard, with the extra fare paid upon exit.
And I think the original plan for the 63rd Street tunnel involved a new line terminating in Rockaway (don't understand why the A wouldn't be sufficient for that).
Metro North already runs Bronx local service, however there is little impact on the subway. There are so few stations in the Bronx for it to achieve the desired effect you mention.
JRC
"There are so few stations in the Bronx for it to achieve the desired effect you mention."
And, transporation wise, too expensive. The subway is the only inexpensive option for low income people unless they zone the LIRR/METRO-NORTH for $1.50 and put in more local stations.
N Broadway Line
For LIRR Queems service, a peak ticket from Jamaica to Penn is $5.75. The same price from between Bayside and Main Street. About a buck less from Kew Gardens and Forest Hills. The monthly ticket is no bargain either. If you don't work near Penn Station, it's a poinless way to travel, an express bus would be faster and even cheaper.
Of course a bus to the subway is the cheapest alternative, but when time is money, well, you know.
Right, the LIRR and Metro North is expensive, so the people who need it should use Bus to Train, or Express Busses. They should be happy they still have good cheap transportation. There are many latge urban cities where transit sucks like LA and Houston to mention a few, Phoenix is another, since the last time I checked the busses stopped running at 9.00PM and do not run on Sundays.
But NOBODY living in say, Douglaston can't afford the LIRR fare.
It's an old story. Those extensions were talked about back in the 1930's and the city put together a map the the proposed extensions in July, 1939, two months before the breakout of the big one, WWII. After the war, the Federal government siphoned off New York's money and the funds to build them weren't there. (See inside the back cover of Stan Fishler's book). Of course 2 day, anytime you want to build something, there are organized NIMBY's to stop it.
(I think they are just one group who travel around from neighborhood to neighborhood, everytime there is a proposed poject). The additional service would be great, but don't count on it in our grandchildren'd lifetimes.
For those who were not around in the 1970's ro for those that forgot, that's how the MTA and the city got to tearing the 3rd Ave el down. The "corridor" as they called it was going to beefed up with service on the Penn Central (pre-MetroNorth)and other pie-in-the-sky promises.
All they got was "express" bus service, using the term loosely.
Now, after many years, see what service the Bx55 is providing. The demographics have changed; those that were around listening and hoping are no longer there.
JRC
For those who were not around in the 1970's ro for those that forgot, that's how the MTA and the city got to tearing the 3rd Ave el down. The "corridor" as they called it was going to beefed up with service on the Penn Central (pre-MetroNorth)and other pie-in-the-sky promises.
All they got was "express" bus service, using the term loosely.
Now, after many years, see what service the Bx55 is providing. The demographics have changed; those that were around listening and hoping are no longer there.
JRC
Just like with Myrtle Ave., the usual line of BS was that they needed to tear down the el in order to revitalize the area. I've been away from the City for 19 years. Tell me, has either neighborhood been revitalized? Have there been any improvemants? If the answer is "no", I thought so! :-(
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Well,to answer your question,I just happen to have lived in the Myrtle Avenue line ROW from 1979 to 1993. The only urban renewal I've ever seen was maybe a new supermarket or mini-shopping plaza in Clinton Hill. We all know the T.A.'s reason for getting rid of this line,thry didnt want to invest money into an depress neighborhood norin an old structure. The T.A. O.H. the section above Bway,so why couldn't they O.H. the line below Bway to Jay street? We have the only subway system in the world that not only refuses to build new lines,it has a history of destroying what lines it has!!
Well,to answer your question,I just happen to have lived in the Myrtle Avenue line ROW from 1979 to 1993. The only urban renewal I've ever seen was maybe a new supermarket or mini-shopping plaza in Clinton Hill. We all know the T.A.'s reason for getting rid of this line,thry didnt want to invest money into an depress neighborhood norin an old structure. The T.A. O.H. the section above Bway,so why couldn't they O.H. the line below Bway to Jay street? We have the only subway system in the world that not only refuses to build new lines,it has a history of destroying what lines it has!!
The line below Broadway was incapable of running heavy equipment. Also, it was the only B-Division line that could not run 10' wide cars. They could have gone ahead with the lightweight R-39 order, but didn't. Bottom line is that the TA didn't want to keep it. Same thing with the 3rd Ave. El, except that they had less of an excuse to abandon that. After all, they were running the R-12's on it, which were contemporary cars at the time of abandonment. Do you notice that the lines that were earmarked for demolition were allowed to rot? All the other lines got corrugated steel windscreen and concrete platforms, except for the 3rd Ave. El, the Myrtle Ave. El and the Culver Shuttle. When the Jamaica El was repainted, it was repainted only up to 127th St. They knew that the rest would be coming down. As part of the Transit Authority's modernization program, they replaced those rickety old els (3rd Ave. and Myrtle Ave.) with nice modern buses. That's progress! One hundred years ago, the trend was to replace surface transit with els and subways. forty to eighty years later, the trend became replacing rapid transit with surface transit. Like I said, that's progress.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As always, you have pearls of wisdom to share with the rest of us.I have another post here.Please read,and tell me what you guys think
"Well,to answer your question,I just happen to have lived in the Myrtle Avenue line ROW from 1979 to 1993. The only urban renewal I've ever seen was
maybe a new supermarket or mini-shopping plaza in Clinton Hill. We all know the T.A.'s reason for getting rid of this line,thry didnt want to invest money into
an depress neighborhood norin an old structure. The T.A. O.H. the section above Bway,so why couldn't they O.H. the line below Bway to Jay street? We have
the only subway system in the world that not only refuses to build new lines,it has a history of destroying what lines it has!!"
Wasn't this route destroyed due to the lack of rider patronage? And besides, the G almost duplicates it entirely.
N Broadway Line
Wasn't this route destroyed due to the lack of rider patronage? And besides, the G almost duplicates it entirely.
N Broadway Line
The TA's 2 blanket catch-all phrases when closing a line was:
1) Lack of ridership
2) The el must be demolished so the area can be revitalized.
As for lack of ridership, the Myrtle Line never really had an abundance of riders once service was cut back to Bridge-Jay, but ridership wasn't dwindling enough to warrant the line's closing. The GG (at the time) paralleling the El would have been a poor excuse, as the both coexisted for 3 decades. Ol' Myrt wasn't abandoned because of lack of ridership. She was abandoned because the TA didn't want to order lightweight El cars to replace the aging Q-Types, which were the last wooden cars on the system, and they didn't want to refurbish the aging line. So, they used the excuse that the el needed to come down so the area could be revitalized. That was a big lie. Nothing has been revitalized. All they did was replace a rapid transit line with a bus. As for the aging line, the stations were no different than Alabama Ave. through Crescent St. they could have refurbished the stations and ordered lightweight cars for the Myrtle Line. They did the same thing with the 3rd Ave. El in the Bronx. Same lie about revitalizing the area and another bus replacement for a rapid transit line. Like I said in a previous post, they had even less of an excuse to tear down the 3 rd Ave. El, as they were running steel subway cars on 3rd Ave. They modified some R-12's to brake gentler, so the older structure could take it. What would have been the smart thing to do would be to order the R-39 lightweight cars for both els. That was what was originally proposed. Both els were designed for 9' wide cars.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re reasons for closing the Myrtle El?]
I had thought that ridership did drop off considerably after the Brooklyn Navy Yard closed in the early 1960s. In fact, wasn't the proximity of the Navy Yard the main reason why the El was built in the first place?
I had thought that ridership did drop off considerably after the Brooklyn Navy Yard closed in the early 1960s. In fact, wasn't the proximity of the Navy Yard the main reason why the El was built in the first place?
Don't know. Could be.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As far as Myrtle Avenue and Marcy Avenue,the Crosstown and Myrtle EL were neck and neck from downtown Brooklyn. A simple solution to a problem,FIX IT! Some platform shaving,a little fixin'up and v'la',a renovated el! Naw,too much troble. Better to tear it down and replace it with a bus line. WAIT A MINUTE! WE ALREADY HAVE A BUS LINE ON THAT STREET!Alrighty then,we'll just shove everybody on the crosstown train or the B54 bus,and if they don't like it BITE ME!! But lets not be to hard on the poor saps,we'll throw in a couple uh' free transfers so these's people won't feel totaly ---- on.Them peoples sho'wood b'happe.that right. Dems peoples would be happe. yes suh
This is similar to a thread that ran a couple of month ago about the demolition of the Jamaica Ave. el. The Archer Ave. subway replaced part of it, but not all and there was an 11 year delay, (1977-1988) before the stub opened. Jamaica, around the subway terminal is a bit better than what it was, but it will never be what it used to be.
" Jamaica, around the subway terminal is a bit better than what it was, but it will never be what it used to be."
A bit better?????? No, Mark! It's much better. You now have an inside connection between th E/J/Z LIRR trains and City/LI Buses. Plus, passengers living in the Richmond Hill/Woodhaven area can travel to other parts of Queens without using bus service. Tell me if that's not an really great improvement?
Besides, this was the best thing that the TA done with city rail transportation in Queens since they managed the subway!!!
N Broadway Line
I was referring to the neighborhood itself, not the transportation network. I'm sorry if my message was misunderstood.
Mark.
"As part of the Transit Authority's modernization program, they replaced those rickety old els (3rd Ave. and Myrtle Ave.) with nice modern buses. That's progress!"
YOU CALLED REPLACING RAIL TRANSIT WITH BUSES PROGRESS! OOOOHHHHH MY GOD!
N Broadway Line
"As part of the Transit Authority's modernization program, they replaced those rickety old els (3rd Ave. and Myrtle Ave.) with nice modern buses. That's progress!"
YOU CALLED REPLACING RAIL TRANSIT WITH BUSES PROGRESS! OOOOHHHHH MY GOD!
N Broadway Line
I was being sarcastic. You know how I feel about the els. If anyone tries to touch my sacred cows, they hear about it. That wasn't even tongue in cheek. I wasn't trying to be funny. I was being plain sarcastic.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT,
I stand corrected.
N Broadway Line
Same thing if someone knocks the slant R-40s. I know of one person who bristles right away.
That is true, however the 3rd Ave el was partially repainted prior to being torn down. What a joke.
Was it the Dual Contracts portion, or the older section which IIRC was falling apart at the end?
That is true, however the 3rd Ave el was partially repainted prior to being torn down. What a joke.
You're talking about the Webster Ave. portion. I don't know why they even bothered.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The TA has always been wasteful. Back in 1948 thge entire Nostrand Ave Trolley Line in Brooklyn was torn up and new rails were replaced.
.02 years later good old bus service.
Politics drives waste. There was probably a political fight, bus vs. trolley. The trolley folks struck by replacing the rails, but the bus folks struck back by converting anyway.
One was RM got is way is by spending money his way, then assuming no one would "waste" by cancelling a project in mid-stream. There are a bunch of highways that just end, showing the point when that didn't work anymore.
Like what highway? The Sheridan Expressway?
How 'bout the Seaford-Oyster Bay at both ends. Also the LIE in Riverhead for that matter.
In the case of the L.I.E. It does provide a good Hamptons route where it ends. The SOB :) is another story.
[How 'bout the Seaford-Oyster Bay at both ends. Also the LIE in Riverhead for that matter.]
Actually, the LIE's eastern terminus makes some sense nowadays because it's at the Tanger Outlet mall, a big traffic draw. I don't quite see where it could logically be extended eastward. Downtown Riverhead's in pretty rough shape - if it were a human hospital patient, family members would be pricing cemetery plots - and the North Fork's pleasant semirural character would suffer greatly from the presence of a superhighway.
In 1935, LaGuardia declared war on trolleys, believing buses were the future.
They were the future, as was sky-blackening pollution leading to emphysema and nastier diseases, that wasn't addressed till the 1970s. Even now buses continue to spew forth pollutants.
All because the little flower didn't want those nasty old trolley wires...
It's probably more complicated than all that...a lot of money under the table etc. But they should have retained some trolley lines as they did in Philly and Boston.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The TA may well be in the City's tradition of wasting money, but it can't be blamed for Nostrand Avenue--the TA wasn't forced on the city by Governor Dewey until 1953. It was the Board of Transportation that re-railed Nostrand, but someone more knowledgeable than I would have to explain who made the decision to change Nostrand to bus service. There might be a trace of the finger of Robert Moses--looking forward to one-way avenues, which can't be implemented too easily when there are trolleys running.
I have heard that the only reason the Coney Island, Church, and McDonald routes lasted into TA days was that the PCC cars had been financed through a federal program and that there was a twenty-year requirement for their operation.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
As I drive on Myrtle often I have to say the neighborhoods it goes through isn't exactly Beverly Hills however it is brighter and nicer without the el. Its definitely nicer than the part N/O Bway where the el is still running. And where the el ended by Jay Street is completely revitalized with the Metrotech complex. However I still miss riding on it on the old "Q" cars!!!
As I drive on Myrtle often I have to say the neighborhoods it goes through isn't exactly Beverly Hills however it is brighter and nicer without the el. Its definitely nicer than the part N/O Bway where the el is still running. And where the el ended by Jay Street is completely revitalized with the Metrotech complex. However I still miss riding on it on the old "Q" cars!!!
Yeah. They revitalized the Downtown area, but that's not what they were talking about when they talked about revitalizing. They meant the whole area where the el used to run - the residential area. the el couldn't have darkened Myrtle Ave. that much when it was there. It was 2 tracks with nothing in the center (like the Jamaica Ave. Line) except for the island platform stations.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, like I always said: tearing the els down made it brighter so "they" could see what "they" were taking when "they" were out mugging.
Joe C
What bugged me then,as it still does, is the fact that the MTA and city used such deceptive practices in getting their way. Sure, they legally held the community meetings,but they showed pictures of 3rd Ave in Manhattan, with and without the el. The stupid people actually
bought into that! I was there.
Joe C
What bugged me then,as it still does, is the fact that the MTA and city used such deceptive practices in getting their way. Sure, they legally held the community meetings,but they showed pictures of 3rd Ave in Manhattan, with and without the el. The stupid people actually
bought into that! I was there.
Joe C
Did those idiots actually think that luxury high rise apartment buildings and office buildings were going to be built along 3rd Ave. in the Bronx? Hey, introduce me to some of those people. I have a bridge that connects Manhattan and Brooklyn. Its in very good shape. Its been refurbished in 1983. I'd be willing to sell it cheap.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Can't say where any of those poor saps are, but folks like Bill Ronan are very happy in their new positions, I'm sure.
JRC
yeah, and then you can convince them that tearing it down would improve the east river, thereby making it more valuable!
subfan
yeah, and then you can convince them that tearing it down would improve the east river, thereby making it more valuable!
subfan
What about all the other East River bridges. Tear 'em all down! Any kind of a steel span - get rid of it - els, bridges. The FDR Drive. Its elevated. Get rid of it! Hey, the bridge over Coney Island Creek (Perfume Creek) that carries the Sea Beach and West End trains, get rid of it. They could always ferry trains across the creek on barges. That will clear up the creek. How about the Gwanus Cnanl. Lets get rid of Smith 9th. That concrete el has been polluting the creek for years.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Good luck trying to tear down Hell Gate Bridge. It could probably survive a direct hit from an atomic bomb.
In all the earthquake and diaster movies about NY, It always was the last one standing
BMT,
It's still an eyesore to residence living and traveling in that area. And you have to consider noise the el's generate when they pass through the neighborhood of which they serve.
N Broadway Line
BMT,
It's still an eyesore to residence living and traveling in that area. And you have to consider noise the el's generate when they pass through the neighborhood of which they serve.
N Broadway Line
Please wait for the audio to load.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Something went wrong with the HTML. Sorry about the audio not loading.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'll do it without audio.
Beauty is in the eyes and ears of the Beholder.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I remember warm Summer Nights sitting outside on East 23rd Street in Brooklyn. If the breeze was bright you could hear the noise of the Culver L 23 blocks away. Not the brighton 8 blocks, because it had the sound of a el, and the R1-9s were much noiser then Triplex and Standards
Growing up in the Hub, at 150th Street and Courtlandt Ave in the Bronx, similarly on warm nights, our windows would be opened and, late at night, when all the surrounding noises had died out, one could hear the sounds of screaching brakes from the "R"-type equipment entering the subway station at 149th & 3rd. Also, the accelerating Lo-v and Steinway cars on the "el" was just the perfect lullaby. I lived 2 blocks away.
JOE C
Where I live in East Meadow we are a good 3 1/2 miles from the LIRR Main Line but at night we could hear the diesel horns but not the M1-3 horns. The closest crossing is School Street just E/O Westbury Station which is almost 4 miles away. (Unless of course we are hearing the ghost of the Central Branch going through Salisbury Eisenhower Park.)
Isn't the G close to the Myrtle? As for the Lexington, it was useless because it was close to the Myrtle line, just like having both a Second and Third Avenue El (of course, platform extensions would be needed to kill one off) and the old Fifth Avenue El in Brooklyn.
Isn't the G close to the Myrtle? As for the Lexington, it was useless because it was close to the Myrtle line, just like having both a Second and Third Avenue El (of course, platform extensions would be needed to kill one off) and the old Fifth Avenue El in Brooklyn.
Like I said in a previous post, the IND Crosstown Line and the Myrtle Ave. El coexisted for 3 decades. You talk about the Lexington Ave. El being useless? First off, I disagree with you. Second off, now we don't have either the Lexington Ave. El or the Myrtle Ave. El. Reading your posts, one clearly gets the idea that you're an advocate of total el elimination. Do you hate the els that much, Mr. LaGuardia? Unlike you and our ex-mayor, I don't advocate elimination of any rapid transit lines. I don't advocate any replacement either. Chicago has the right idea. NY has had the wrong idea since 1938. Also, don't think that I've forgotten about your proposal to shut down the rapid transit system at night in favor of bus replacement. El removal and bus replacement is stinkin' thinkin' in my book. You need to live in Europe for a while to see how a society not only appreciates, but loves their trains and trams.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No, that's not the way it works. Either the Lexington Avenue El or the Myrtle Avenue El (either way, the Myrtle west of Grand would have to exist) would have served the function. Running both would cost money and with hardly any benefit. Just like I think it was the Third Avenue El that should have been demolished, with the platforms lengthened on the Second Avenue.
As much nighttime service as their is, there isn't much that is cost effective to continue running.
As for my plans in my sig, the only el elimination I openly advocated and never decided against is the elimination of the Liberty Avenue Line because of the difficulty of finding a place to build a portal to extend it as a subway to eastern Queens.
Yes but the 2nd ave was taken down before WWII and the 3rd was up until 1954/55
No, that's not the way it works. Either the Lexington Avenue El or the Myrtle Avenue El (either way, the Myrtle west of Grand would have to exist) would have served the function. Running both would cost money and with hardly any benefit. Just like I think it was the Third Avenue El that should have been demolished, with the platforms lengthened on the Second Avenue.
As much nighttime service as their is, there isn't much that is cost effective to continue running.
As for my plans in my sig, the only el elimination I openly advocated and never decided against is the elimination of the Liberty Avenue Line because of the difficulty of finding a place to build a portal to extend it as a subway to eastern Queens.
I forgot about your Liberty Ave. suggestion. What is wrong with extending the Liberty Ave. Line as a modern concrete el? Let me see...hmmm...
You advocated the following:
1) Tear down Myrtle (posthumous in your case)
2) Tear down Lexington (posthumous in your case)
3) Tear down 3rd Ave. (posthumous in your case)
4) Tear down 6th Ave. (posthumous in your case)
5) Tear down 9th Ave. (posthumous in your case)
6) Tear down 5th Ave. Bay Ridge (posthumous in your case)
7) Tear down Liberty Ave.
Just about the only el that you said could stand was 2nd Ave. In your previous post, you said Isn't the G close to the Myrtle? As for the Lexington, it was useless because it was close to the Myrtle line, just like having both a Second and Third Avenue El (of course, platform extensions would be needed to kill one off) and the old Fifth Avenue El in Brooklyn.
You must really hate els. I'll bet your idea of a utopian system is all underground - no trains ever seeing daylight unless they're going to the yard.
Then there's the matter of wanting to discontinue rapid transit service at night in favor of bus substitution. Oh, No! Not in New York, you don't! Like I said in my previous post, all that's stinkin' thinkin' in my book.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I disagree with any type of route closings ,day or night. As Isaid bofore ,N.Y is the only city in the US or anywhere else as a matter of fact that destroys it's rapid transit structures and refuses to build a suitable replacement. The last EL to be razed[JAMAICA LINE east of 121st street] destroyed the Jamaica shopping/business district for years after, until the Archer Avenue Subway opened.The same happened to the HUB[in the BRONX]and along Myrtle Av,2nd Av.,etc... With a city as large as ours, we need subways,EL'S,whatever we can get. The T.A.should do the right thing by its riders and give us the routes that we need.
I disagree with any type of route closings ,day or night. As Isaid bofore ,N.Y is the only city in the US or anywhere else as a matter of fact that destroys it's rapid transit structures and refuses to build a suitable replacement. The last EL to be razed[JAMAICA LINE east of 121st street] destroyed the Jamaica shopping/business district for years after, until the Archer Avenue Subway opened.The same happened to the HUB[in the BRONX]and along Myrtle Av,2nd Av.,etc... With a city as large as ours, we need subways,EL'S,whatever we can get. The T.A.should do the right thing by its riders and give us the routes that we need.
Yes. Second Ave. Subway and IND Second System, and no more tearing down the els. The people in Chicago wouldn't put up with anyone messing with their El.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Neither would Phliadelphia. They upgraded the Market-Frankford el. Perhaps they had little choice, but the fact is they kept their el.
I would like to commend the MTA for restoring VERY NICELY the Franklin Shuttle. That was slated to be removed,too, several times. See what can happen when they (MTA) works with the community and decent planners.
Joe C
Thats because the good people of BED-STY fought the T.A to a standstill over the shuttle.Sure, it was old and worn out BUT,WHO ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Too bad the poor saps in the Bronx were literally hypnotized by the
MTA staffers and planners into thinking the 3rd ave corridor would turn out like Manhattan.
Of recent memory, and I hate to open a can of worms, lest we give the MTA any other brainstorms, was eliminating the IRT #4 north of 161st St. Just before they started that crap in the early '80's, true to themselves, they began painting the structure.A sure sign of problems ahead. That was finally fought down. Not to be outdone, the MTA tried to eliminate Concourse expresses by eliminating "C" service. That they finally did, but in a different way: substituting the "C" with the "B", as you know. Their argument was too many people fare-evaded in this area, therefore no one was paying and, according to their stats, no revenue was generated on the Concourse. They had to do just two things:
1-station cops around to thwart KNOWN FARE EVASION
2-wander up to the Concourse on any given a.m. or p.m. rush hour and SEE THE CROWDS!!!!
No more said on any of these wonderful, community-minded ideas.
Joe C
As much as I support express service, the Concourse express run has got to rank up there as being one of the slowest, if not THE slowest, in the entire system. I didn't even ride on it this past fall, in a break with tradition, opting instead for discovering the Dyre Ave. line. Those D trains don't seem to get up to even 25 mph along the Grand Concourse. It's about as exciting as watching paint dry.
I agree, but it does help. Believe me. The same old story: R68's as slow as you know what! Especially northbound. But there is at least one operator who really knows his stuff. Leaves 145th, northbound, evening rush, thru 155th and into the tubes without any fear whatsoever. Builds up speed thru 161st, straining thru 167th and then zooms all the way to Tremont. Yes, folks, it is possible. How can one operator do it when the others can't, or won't. Amazes me!!
"Of recent memory, and I hate to open a can of worms, lest we give the MTA any other brainstorms, was eliminating the IRT #4 north of 161st St."
Since the #4 is really close to the Grand Course D line, wouldn't it make since to move this line (after 161st Street) towards University Avenue where it's more needed?
N Broadway Line
Since the #4 is really close to the Grand Course D line, wouldn't it make since to move this line (after 161st Street) towards University Avenue where it's more needed?
N Broadway Line
With the money that would be spent on that, the Second Ave. Subway could be built.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
True, but the NIMBY's of the Bronx aren't the same skin color that the NIMBY's of the East side are. So opposition wouldn't be the same.
Philadelphia's restoring of the Market Frankford Line is nowhere near finished. The west Philadelphia el is still 90+ years old; SEPTA has been trying to replace it for years. After that, the signal system should hopefully be upgraded to an ATP/ATO system. A line shouldn't live in the past when it can easily be upgraded.
Speaking of upgrading, has a line with more than 2 tracks, or a system as complex as that of NYC ever been upgraded to ATP?
C.B.T.C is being done on the 'L',2/5 LINES as we speak.
Not the 2/5 lines. Only the L.
Because why build new els? Of course, in all of those things that you mention, except for Liberty, all of those els were gone before I took up the case in justifying their absence. I also never advocated tearing down 1 or 2 simultaneously, and would not advocate building the replacement subways for 6th and 9th, it's just that they already were, the els became redundant and the new subway provided a better service.
To elaborate on my first sentence, els are noisy, will ALWAYS come with opposition to their neighborhood. The only advantage of an el is being able to see daylight, this does not outweigh the disadvantages, since I never considered money in my expansions (it is fantasy after all) there is no hurdle to building a subway as the extension.
You'll probably now respond saying that if I don't care about money, why didn't I demolish all the els? In that case they're there, they work out, but new ones aren't going to be built.
The extensions to Co-op City and Laguardia Airport were elevated. So was the line to the Staten Island and Green Acres Malls.
Because why build new els? Of course, in all of those things that you mention, except for Liberty, all of those els were gone before I took up the case in justifying their absence. I also never advocated tearing down 1 or 2 simultaneously, and would not advocate building the replacement subways for 6th and 9th, it's just that they already were, the els became redundant and the new subway provided a better service.
To elaborate on my first sentence, els are noisy, will ALWAYS come with opposition to their neighborhood. The only advantage of an el is being able to see daylight, this does not outweigh the disadvantages, since I never considered money in my expansions (it is fantasy after all) there is no hurdle to building a subway as the extension.
You'll probably now respond saying that if I don't care about money, why didn't I demolish all the els? In that case they're there, they work out, but new ones aren't going to be built.
The extensions to Co-op City and Laguardia Airport were elevated. So was the line to the Staten Island and Green Acres Malls.
I know those els were gone before you took up the case in justifying their absence. That's why I put posthumous in parentheses. You talk about "the extensions to Co-op City and Laguardia Airport were elevated. So was the line to the Staten Island and Green Acres Malls" as if they were built and are running. Hey, I wish they were. I find absolutely nothing wrong with building a modern concrete el with high speed trains on welded rail. I'd love to see the Second Ave. subway, when it is finally built sprout legs. Make it a modern concrete el with trains going 80 mph up and down the Second Ave. Express.
In my transit proposals, I would see to it that not one more inch of elevated track is removed, and I'd add more. As for the Fulton St. El from Rockaway Ave. to 80th St., they should have just removed the stub going to Rockaway Ave., but should have kept everything from Atlantic Ave. to 80th St. and run it as the 14th St. Fulton St. Line, from 8th Ave. to Lefferts, which did run, BTW. At least there wouldn't have been any loss of service. The 14th St. Fulton St. Line would have been a more direct route into Manhattan than the A. They could have had both. The Multisection cars could have been used for this purpose, until the R-39 would be built. That same R-39 could have served on the Myrtle, 3rd Ave. and 14th St. Fulton Lines. Actually, they could have had an R-39A, 9' wide and an R-39B, 10' wide. The remaining original 1880's portion of the Fulton St. El would have been preserved.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"trains going 80 mph up and down the Second Ave. Express."
Stop dreaming BMT. No subway train is capable of achieving 80 mph without falling off the tracks first. 60 mph is more reasonable.
"Make it a modern concrete el with"
Maybe 3rd Avenue in the Bronx, but not on Manhattan's second avenue!
"but should have kept everything from Atlantic Ave. to 80th St. and run it as the 14th St. Fulton St. Line, from 8th Ave. to Lefferts, which did run, BTW."
And limit the heyway on the last three remaining stops on the Carnarsie line? Real smart BMT!
Last, I do not support your proposal regarding the Myrtle Avenue El, since, it almost duplicates the G entirely. It will be better received if you mentioned a connection being built between the G and J/M/Z lines than your current proposal. And cheaper!
N Broadway Line
The R46's original top speed was meant to be 70-80 MPH. It's still possible to get some of the older cars to go that fast, but those pesky wheel detectors and GT signals prevent it.
"trains going 80 mph up and down the Second Ave. Express."
Stop dreaming BMT. No subway train is capable of achieving 80 mph without falling off the tracks first. 60 mph is more reasonable.
"Make it a modern concrete el with"
Maybe 3rd Avenue in the Bronx, but not on Manhattan's second avenue!
"but should have kept everything from Atlantic Ave. to 80th St. and run it as the 14th St. Fulton St. Line, from 8th Ave. to Lefferts, which did run, BTW."
And limit the heyway on the last three remaining stops on the Carnarsie line? Real smart BMT!
Last, I do not support your proposal regarding the Myrtle Avenue El, since, it almost duplicates the G entirely. It will be better received if you mentioned a connection being built between the G and J/M/Z lines than your current proposal. And cheaper!
N Broadway Line
Yes, something engineered in the late '90's would be able to achieve speeds of 80 mph, maybe even faster.
A modern high-tech el along 2nd Ave. would be a viable alternative to an extremely costly new subway line.
A 14th St. Fulton St. Line would have meant just keeping a service that was already running.
As for Myrtle service, my idea is to keep rapid transit, not get rid of it. Only a fool and a complete idiot wants to get rid of existing rapid transit.
If you were running the transit system, there wouldn't be any transit system. You call yourself a railfan? You're a disgrace! If you don't like my tone, its only a response to your snide, sarcastic attitude toward me. Stick it where the sun don't shine. BTW, if you don't like hearing my views on certain things, then listen to TMC MISTER RAPID TRANSIT. He says pretty much the same thing. I'll say it again:
Only a fool and a complete idiot wants to get rid of existing rapid transit.
Then their were a lot of fools and idiots living in the Bronx, Borough Park and Jamaica during the 1970's.
Then their were a lot of fools and idiots living in the Bronx, Borough Park and Jamaica during the 1970's.
If they advocated abandonment of rapid transit service, yes. It was politics that brought an end to each and every one of those lines, and the naive people in those communities let it happen. Then, some of them wake up and smell the coffee and wonder why their neighborhood is economically depressed. Its like "Duh!! Where did all the stores go"? No more rapid transit service. They are forced to take a bus to the nearest train line. Lesson to be learned: Be careful what you ask for. You just may get it. Once you have it, you'll wish you never had it.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It's more like: you asked for it, you got it. Now live with it.
It's more like: you asked for it, you got it. Now live with it.
Right!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT,
No one here wants to get rid of public transporation. However, a el built on second avenue in Manhattan will put a black shadow on the whole area; which lowers the property value. Besides, there are plenty of areas that an el's can be built (or extended) without greatly affecting the neighborhoods. But to suggest that it will be good for Manhattan is thinking back. With the new year coming up in a couple days, we must think ahead, not backwards.
Elevated lines where popular at the time because, no one could imagine trains service underground. But when transporation planners realized the faults of el lines, they decided to investigate the subway idea further.
Yes BMT, I agree el's are cheaper - that's in the interim. But overtime, they become more of an expensive. Why BMT?????? Because, you have to consider weather conditions; rain, snow, winds, sun (yes) etc.
Constantly the TA has to paint these el routes, maintain the trackage, and maintain the structure (because of flexing). Underground systems are not as expensive to maintain because they aren't as affected by weather patterns.
The TA realizes this, that is why they prefer subways over el's. I agree.
N Broadway Line
Increased patronage of the businesses along Second Ave. with an el there would offset any loss in property value. Other large cities have elevated lines, both old and modern, and they seem to survive just fine. Go to Chicago and ask the businesses along State St. if they want that "el" torn down...
Increased patronage of the businesses along Second Ave. with an el there would offset any loss in property value. Other large cities have elevated lines, both old and modern, and they seem to survive just fine. Go to Chicago and ask the businesses along State St. if they want that "el" torn down...
I think this thing of lowering property values was artificially created, just to tear down the Manhattan els. It was a false perception. Like you said about Chicago, the El doesn't bother anybody. Tear it down and you'll bother loads of people. Besides, I was speaking of a modern quiet high speed el that wouldn't make a lot of noise and wouldn't darken the street. It would be aesthetically pleasing and would probably increase property values. We're going into 2000. We don't build els like we did 100 years ago.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Ever ride the #7 line along the Queens Blvd. viaduct? It's quiet, doesn't darken the sidewalks and would do just fine in Manhattan.
"Ever ride the #7 line along the Queens Blvd. viaduct? It's quiet, doesn't darken the sidewalks and would do just fine in Manhattan."
Not true. It is extremely loud.
N Broadway Line
I rode it 2 days ago. The train glided quietly over the new welded rail. It isn't loud at all.
Ever ride the #7 line along the Queens Blvd. viaduct? It's quiet, doesn't darken the sidewalks and would do just fine in Manhattan.
I traversed the Flushing line countless times, although most of the time, I rode it from Junction Blvd. to Times Sq. and back.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It doesn't darken the sidewalks because its in the middle of a very wide street. Second Av is not wide enough. The only other transit viaducts built like that is the IND el in the Rockaways and the LIRR Babylon Line and they are ugly as anything!!! It would not look good on 2nd Av.
It doesn't darken the sidewalks because its in the middle of a very wide street. Second Av is not wide enough. The only other
transit viaducts built like that is the IND el in the Rockaways and the LIRR Babylon Line and they are ugly as anything!!! It
would not look good on 2nd Av.
Everyone keeps thinking of old technology. Try looking at some of the modern systems out of state.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>>Try looking at some of the modern systems out of state.<<<
Such as?....
Most of the Modern Systems built since the 60s do not run over a given street like the older L s like in NY Chi, Philly, etc. The run along Medan Strips on Highways, between streets, along railroad right aways etc. I do not know of any above a City Street, Does anyone know of one?
Such as?....
San Francisco - BART
Washington DC - WMATA
Miami - Metrorail
Phila.-Lindenwold - PATCO
There are probably others in other countries.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
MTR Hong Kong and Singapore, are others.
>>>Ever ride the #7 line along the Queens Blvd. viaduct? It's quiet, doesn't darken the sidewalks and
would do just fine in Manhattan. <<<
The viaduct and that part of Queens Boulevard were constructed at the same time (before that, before 1915-17 when construction was complete, the road that would become Queens Blvd, Thomson Avenue, was just a two lane street).
So, they had the opportunity to create two boulevards running on either side of the el structure.
If you put an el on Second Avenue, you would have to darken much of the street, because you can't expand 2nd Avenue into two boulevards the way they did with Queens Blvd.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What was the rest of Queens Boulevard called?
BTW, I just read a thread last year on nyc.transit that you started about old street names.
How did Booth Memorial Avenue connect with North Hempstead Turnpike in, well North Hempstead? I assume it went along the LIE, once known as Nassau Boulevard, then followed a spur just east of the Queens/Nassau border still called Nassau Boulevard and along a now gone ROW to Northern Boulevard. What was Northern Boulevard in Queens?
So, what are the new names of Bear Swamp Road, Hoffman Boulevard and Fort Schuyler Road?
Did Hollis Avenue connect to the Old Country Road in Mineola and Westbury?
>>>What was the rest of Queens Boulevard called? <<<
What is now Queens Boulevard was a colection of older roads. In Sunnyside it was Thomson Avenue, in what's now Forest Hills and Elmhurst, it was Hoffman Boulevard, and in Kew Gardens it was Newtown Road (that part is still there but now it's called Kew Gardens Road).
>>>How did Booth Memorial Avenue connect with North Hempstead Turnpike in, well North
Hempstead? I assume it went along the LIE, once known as Nassau Boulevard, then followed a
spur just east of the Queens/Nassau border still called Nassau Boulevard and along a now gone
ROW to Northern Boulevard. <<<
Not at all. The North Hempstead Turnpike now called Booth Memorial Ave. had NOTHING to do with Route 25A, now known as Northern Boulevard, and formerly as the North Hempstead Turnpike in Nassau, from Quensboro Plaza out to the Suffolk County line. That's probably why they changed the name.
>>>Bear Swamp Road<<<
Bronxdale Ave
>>>Hoffman Boulevard<<<
Queens Blvd. A piece of it still exists left over from before Queens Bld was straightened: Hoffman Drive.
>>>Fort Schuyler Road<<<
East Tremont Avenue
>>>Did Hollis Avenue connect to the Old Country Road in Mineola and Westbury? <<<
No. The existence of the longer Old Country Road from Mineola out to Suffolk County was probably the biggest factor in the name change to Hollis Avenue.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe Northern Blvd is still called North Hempstead Tpke east of Glen Cove Road.
What was the now Northern Boulevard in Queens called?
>>>What was the now Northern Boulevard in Queens called? <<<
Broadway. This is why the PW Branch station on Northern Blvd is called Broadway, even though it is nowhere near Queens' Broadway, which runs from Astoria to Elmhurst.
www.forgotten-ny.com
">>>Fort Schuyler Road<<<
East Tremont Avenue"
I just found that name on my almost new map!
BMT,
No one here wants to get rid of public transporation. However, a el built on second avenue in Manhattan will put a black shadow on the whole area; which lowers the property value. Besides, there are plenty of areas that an el's can be built (or extended) without greatly affecting the neighborhoods. But to suggest that it will be good for Manhattan is thinking back. With the new year coming up in a couple days, we must think ahead, not backwards.
Elevated lines where popular at the time because, no one could imagine trains service underground. But when transporation planners realized the faults of el lines, they decided to investigate the subway idea further.
Yes BMT, I agree el's are cheaper - that's in the interim. But overtime, they become more of an expensive. Why BMT?????? Because, you have to consider weather conditions; rain, snow, winds, sun (yes) etc.
Constantly the TA has to paint these el routes, maintain the trackage, and maintain the structure (because of flexing). Underground systems are not as expensive to maintain because they aren't as affected by weather patterns.
The TA realizes this, that is why they prefer subways over el's. I agree.
N Broadway Line
You're thinking of the steel noisy els of the early part of the century. I'm thinking of the modern aesthetic concrete el that doesn't darken the street and runs fast and quiet. Welded rail on rubber track pads, like in a modern subway, or a modern el. As for weather conditions, remember when the domed stadium with artiificial turf was the stadium of the future? Now, we've gotten back to the classic outdoor stadium with natural grass. The only difference is that the stadium of the '90's and '00's has a retractible roof.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[You're thinking of the steel noisy els of the early part of the century. I'm thinking of the modern aesthetic concrete el that doesn't darken the street and runs fast and quiet. Welded rail on rubber track pads, like in a modern subway, or a modern el. As for weather conditions, remember when the domed stadium with artiificial turf was the stadium of the future? Now, we've gotten back to the classic outdoor stadium with natural grass. The only difference is that the stadium of the '90's and '00's has a retractible roof.]
It would nevertheless cast quite a shadow (literally) on Second Avenue, and there's no way that's every going to happen.
It would nevertheless cast quite a shadow (literally) on Second Avenue, and there's no way that's every going to happen.
Evidently you don't know too much about modern high-tech els. as for what's not going to happen, that's what people said about the first IRT subway, that nobody would ride a train underground. Do you know what else was said would never happen? Landing a man on the Moon. What also would never happen was that the Titanic could sink. Never say never.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Evidently you don't know too much about modern high-tech els. as for what's not going to happen, that's what people said about the first IRT subway, that nobody would ride a train underground. Do you know what else was said would never happen? Landing a man on the Moon. What also would never happen was that the Titanic could sink. Never say never.]
You're right, I shouldn't have said "never"--"ain't" would have done. The people who live and work near Second Avenue don't want to look at infrastructure.
Fine. If the residents of the upper East side want to stand in the way of transit progress and screw the rest of the city, I say the MTA should close every station on the Lexington Ave. line from 125th to Grand Central. Let them get around the city without train service.
[Fine. If the residents of the upper East side want to stand in the way of transit progress and screw the rest of the city, I say the MTA should close every station on the Lexington Ave. line from 125th to Grand Central. Let them get around the city without train service.]
Somehow I don't think that's going to happen. Apart from the fact that it's the richest congressional district in the country, meaning that when it sneezes, politicians catch cold, the removal of the original el completely transformed Second Avenue and sent property values skyrocketing.
Different things are appropriate to different areas. Other el removal projects destroyed their neighborhoods; it all depends on local conditions.
Do you mean a NYC Subway can t do 80, or any subway. I guess you never rode BART in SF thru the tube
Do you mean a NYC Subway can t do 80, or any subway. I guess you never rode BART in SF thru the tube
N Broadway Line is just wrecklessly shooting off his mouth. 99% of the time, he doesn't even know what he's talking about. He just likes taking pot shots at me. He would be bored to tears if I stopped posting on this forum. I won't disappoint him. I'm here to stay.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"Do you mean a NYC Subway can t do 80, or any subway. I guess you never rode BART in SF thru the tube"
That's not a NYC Subway but a modern system that is equipped to travel at great speeds.
N Broadway Line
So you meant the NYCTransit, Remember NY is not the ONLY Subway in North America.
"Do you mean a NYC Subway can t do 80, or any subway. I guess you never rode BART in SF thru the tube"
That's not a NYC Subway but a modern system that is equipped to travel at great speeds.
N Broadway Line
Your response that no subway can do 80 was in response to my suggestion to build a modern high speed el on Second Ave. With today's technology, you'd better believe that any new line, subway or el can easily do 80.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Stop dreaming BMT. No subway train is capable of achieving 80 mph without falling off the tracks first. 60 mph is more reasonable.]
While I agree that a Second Avenue el is out of the question, 80 mph is easily achievable on the straight sections of a subway system; it could be done in New York if the MTA weren't intent on slowing things down instead of speeding them up.
No. The best thing for NYC Transit would be if that bastard Hylan wasn't born, or at least never elected mayor. The BMT might have went out and bought the bankrupt IRT, creating a different kind of unification. Then the advantages of the Fulton Subway over the El would be completely eliminated (the subway wouldn't be built), by connecting the Park Row BMT terminal to the IRT terminal. The combined lines would run Bluebirds.
No. The best thing for NYC Transit would be if that bastard Hylan wasn't born, or at least never elected mayor. The BMT might have went out and bought the bankrupt IRT, creating a different kind of unification. Then the advantages of the Fulton Subway over the El would be completely eliminated (the subway wouldn't be built), by connecting the Park Row BMT terminal to the IRT terminal. The combined lines would run Bluebirds.
I AGREE!
It was Hylan, with his personal grudges that destroyed the privately-owned companies. Before that scum came on the scene, the furthest thing from the mind of anyone in Municipal Government was to take on the burden of subway ownership. The IRT was a failure, but the progressive, innovative and advanced BMT was quite another story. If you haven't already read it, go to www.rapidtransit.net and read the latest article "Back to the Future". I liked it so much, I saved the entire article, graphics and all.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Interesting article. I could see the old BMT elevated system still in operation with Bluebirds, green Hornets and Zeypher trains plying the rails. Maybe even the old Manhattan el system could have been saved (especially on the east side).
Oh well ...
Interesting article. I could see the old BMT elevated system still in operation with Bluebirds, green Hornets and Zeypher trains plying the rails. Maybe even the old Manhattan el system could have been saved (especially on the east side).
Oh well ...
Free enterprise and private ownership sees to it that the transit system exists and is run for the benefit of the riding public. Once the City, with their dirty politics and graft gets their hands on something, the attitude is "Let the public be damned"! After all, to increase profits, the company wants to please the customer. Therefore the private transit company will provide better service. There's no incentive for a municipally-owned transit system to try to please the public. Just remember, the BMT and IRT were in competition. The passengers were the winners. The TA is a monopoly. The passengers are the losers. Oh, BTW, knowing the BMT's progressive and innovative abilities and talents, the Bluebirds, Zephyr and Green Hornet probably would have been replaced by something more far advanced by now, that would make the R-142 seem out of date, just like the R-1/9 seemed out of date compared to the Bluebirds. Also, if you have the time, go to bmt-lines.com Its not my site, but I recommend it for good factual BMT information.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the city didn't buy these lines off the BMT/IRT, do you think we will have a subway system today? Unfortunately, the answer is no! These companies abandon these lines because they could no longer make a profit. As a result, the City which isn't driven by profit, brought the lines.
Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. So, who was wrong? City or Private company? The answer is the Private company for abandoning the lines. And, who should get the credit for saving the subway system. Yes indeed, the one and only, the CITY!
Shame on you BMT!
N Broadway Line
That's pure crap.
The private companies abandoned nothing, the CITY forced the IRT to abandon the 6 Ave El so they could build the subway without bothering to shore up the el. It was the CITY that forced the companies to sell out. THE CITY that started the IND to try to kill the privates and THE CITY that killed the privates by not letting them raise the fare.
Shame on you IND!
Eventually the city or state would have taken over the subway system. at 5 cents back in 1940 they never would have made a profit, if the transit remained private, they would be a Monolopy and you would be paying a Base Fare of about $3.00 and then like San Fran, or DC by the mile. No large Transit system in USA or Canada stayed private and survived. Like it or not Transit is a Public Utility. Look at the class I Railroads in this Country. They could not make a profit to keep up Passenger Service.
Sure, because the government builds and maintains roads and airports and charges all taxpayers for them, whereas the railroad companies build and maintain - and pay taxes on - their rights of way. Subsidize the railroads at the same level you subsidize other means of transportation and passenger trains would make a comeback.
By the same token, however, you'd devastate the trucking industry, because they would no longer be able to compete in the long haul business. They're losing ground there as it is to the railroads, thanks to stack trains and the like.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, the city's refusal to allow a fare increase destroyed both the IRT and BMT. It was the city's fault for tearing down all those els. The private companies wanted to upgrade and expand their systems, but the city thought otherwise.
Actually, the city's refusal to allow a fare increase destroyed both the IRT and BMT. It was the city's fault for tearing down all those els. The private companies wanted to upgrade and expand their systems, but the city thought otherwise.
Damn, that's what I get for keeping 2 browser windows open while posting!
The City forced the private companies out of business by freezing the fare at 5¢ and building a City-owned subway duplicating service provided by the BMT and IRT. The City wanted tio take over all transit and run the whole show, as a monopoly. I'm surprised that they didn't choke the private bus companies in Queens out of business.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the city didn't buy these lines off the BMT/IRT, do you think we will have a subway system today? Unfortunately, the answer is no! These companies abandon these lines because they could no longer make a profit. As a result, the City which isn't driven by profit, brought the lines.
Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. So, who was wrong? City or Private company? The answer is the Private company for abandoning the lines. And, who should get the credit for saving the subway system. Yes indeed, the one and only, the CITY!
Shame on you BMT!
N Broadway Line
You're way off base. Its the City Transit commission that prevented the 2 private companies from increasing the fare, as no company could operate with the fare frozen at 5¢. That is the tool that the City used to choke both companies out of business. The System would be much better today, had the BMT been allowed to fourish. as for the fare, the City wound up raising it to 10¢ eight years later, didn't they? You need to read the article "Back to the Future" on www.rapidtransit.net to get some clear insight on what went on with the BMT, IRT and the IND. Also look at bmt-lines.com for some good factual information about the BMT and the City's take-over. The site is not mine. It is unbiased information provided by another BMT buff. After looking at those 2 web sites, you will know who the good guys were and who the bad guys were.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re reasons why the IRT and BMT couldn't survive]
Had the City dropped its insistence on the five-cent fare, and not built the competing IND, the IRT and BMT might indeed have survived longer as private companies. But that's certainly not to say that they'd still be around today. Let's not lose sight of the fact that there are precisely zero subway systems in the world today that turn a profit at the fare box.* Things wouldn't have been any different in New York.
* = IIRC, the Hong Kong subway covers its operating expenses with farebox revenue, but still requires subsidies to pay capital expenses.
Also Hong Kong like San Francisco charges by the Mile(kilometer) to be exact. Not a flat fare
Peter Rosa says that "Hong Kong like San Francisco charges by the Mile (kilometer) to be exact. Not a flat fare."
Isn't MUNI still flat fare?
BART is mileage-based but isn't the variable fare to and from outside the SF city limits? I think there's a flat fare for a trip anywhere along Market Street, for example, and part of the East Bay is that way, too.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There is a flat fare on Bart within the citiy limits in San Francisco and Oakland, only if you travel between 2 stations in the zone, go out of the zones, even 1 station and you pay a higher fare
San Francisco MUNI charges $1.00 and transfers are free. Students and seniors/handicapped are 35 cents. Their transfers are good for two hours on any vehicle, and are supposed to be used only twice A tear-off coupon is supposed to be taken by the first driver, and the transfer lifted by the second. However, drivers are afraid to touch anything other than steering wheels (for good reasons...) so the transfers are basically a two-hour pass. Some drivers will give you four or five hours, believe it or not!!
BART is $1.25 within San Francisco -- however, if you go outside SF such as to Daly City/Colma, or across the bay, then the fares go a lot higher.
Someone posted (at ba.transportation) the formula BART uses to calculate fares. There is a flat rate within San Francisco (set by the SF Public Utilities Commission) but otherwise the rate is computed for distance, a surcharge for using the Transbay Tunnel, another surcharge for "high speed" that is based on how long trains are scheduled to be above a certain speed!
BART does have what used to be called an "excursion fare" so you could board at a station, tour BART, and get off where you boarded. Last time I was on BART, this fare was $4.00. However, there is a way to beat this fare -- you board at (for example) Powell in San Francisco, ride the ENTIRE system out to West Pittsburg, Fremont, Richmond, Dublin/Pleasanton, Colma -- and then exit at Montgomery, and your fare will be -- VOILA! -- $1.25! BART tells people the tickets are 'timed' but I really do NOT think so. The magnetic strip on the ticket contains the value left on the ticket, and the boarding station, so when you exit it deducts the fare for station-to-station travel. It doesn't seem to know what time you boarded.
Steve I did this, you have they say 2 hours, but I found out you can get up to 3 hours. As long as you do not get off at the same station you got on, 1 station up is ok.
[Had the City dropped its insistence on the five-cent fare, and not built the competing IND, the IRT and BMT might indeed have survived longer as private companies. But that's certainly not to say that they'd still be around today. Let's not lose sight of the fact that there are precisely zero subway systems in the world today that turn a profit at the fare box.* Things wouldn't have been any different in New York.]
They sure would be, because the fundamental economics haven't changed that much--New York City is simply too dense for everybody to take a car to work. And if the City pays for construction and maintenance of the ROW and a few other things to place subway service on a fair economic footing with cars, the economics of subway operation here are wonderful; for one thing, the MTA could provide current levels of service with half the staff, and even less than that (with superior service) once the system was completely automated.
The fact that unlike just about everyplace else in the world we haven't even gone OPTO is a pretty fair example of the phenomenal bloat buit into our subway operation. No private business would pay two people to do a job that one or, with some investment, zero can do. If New York ran elevators, they'd each have two operators, and require a metrocard to board.
If the city didn't buy these lines off the BMT/IRT, do you think we will have a subway system today? Unfortunately, the answer is no! These companies abandon these lines because they could no longer make a profit. As a result, the City which isn't driven by profit, brought the lines.
Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. So, who was wrong? City or Private company? The answer is the Private company for abandoning the lines. And, who should get the credit for saving the subway system. Yes indeed, the one and only, the CITY!
Shame on you BMT!
N Broadway Line
You're way off base. Its the City Transit commission that prevented the 2 private companies from increasing the fare, as no company could operate with the fare frozen at 5¢. That is the tool that the City used to choke both companies out of business. The System would be much better today, had the BMT been allowed to fourish. as for the fare, the City wound up raising it to 10¢ eight years later, didn't they? You need to read the article "Back to the Future" on www.rapidtransit.net to get some clear insight on what went on with the BMT, IRT and the IND. Also look at bmt-lines.com for some good factual information about the BMT and the City's take-over. The site is not mine. It is unbiased information provided by another BMT buff. After looking at those 2 web sites, you will know who the good guys were and who the bad guys were.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the city didn't buy these lines off the BMT/IRT, do you think we will have a subway system today? Unfortunately, the answer is no! These companies abandon these lines because they could no longer make a profit. As a result, the City which isn't driven by profit, brought the lines.
Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. So, who was wrong? City or Private company? The answer is the Private company for abandoning the lines. And, who should get the credit for saving the subway system. Yes indeed, the one and only, the CITY!
Shame on you BMT!
N Broadway Line
You're way off base. Its the City Transit commission that prevented the 2 private companies from increasing the fare, as no company could operate with the fare frozen at 5¢. That is the tool that the City used to choke both companies out of business. The System would be much better today, had the BMT been allowed to fourish. as for the fare, the City wound up raising it to 10¢ eight years later, didn't they? You need to read the article "Back to the Future" on Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Alright, I was wrong. I had the impression the city saved us from the private companies. In a way, they did (fought the fare increase). But after years of fare increases, we were fooled. So, please disregard my last post.
N Broadway Line
"If the city didn't buy these lines off the BMT/IRT, do you think we will have a subway system today? Unfortunately, the answer is no! These companies abandon these lines because they could no longer make a profit. As a result, the City which isn't driven by profit, brought the lines.
Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. So, who was wrong? City or Private company? The answer is the Private company for abandoning the lines. And, who should get the credit for saving the subway system. Yes indeed, the one and only, the CITY!
Shame on you BMT!
N Broadway Line"
[Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. So, who was wrong? City or Private company? The answer is the Private company for abandoning the lines. And, who should get the credit for saving the subway system. Yes indeed, the one and only, the CITY!]
The IRT was forced into bankruptcy by the 5c fare, which became grossly inadequate after inflation, and competition from the heavily subsidized IND, which was built to suck away passsengers. The City wanted to destroy it so it could take over what it viewed as a municipal cash cow. Why would anybody want to buy a company that was contractually bound to lose money?
The BMT, which was the more profitable and innovative of the two, hung on in *spite* of the City's every effort to destroy it. Finally, the City exercised its contractual right to force it out of business.
Both companies would have been just fine if the City hadn't gone out of its way to kill them.
"Both companies would have been just fine if the City hadn't gone out of its way to kill them."
Fine for passengers not transfering to the competing systems (IND/BMT/IRT). What if passengers have to make multiple transfers between the three systems?
N Broadway Express
"Fine for passengers not transfering to the competing systems (IND/BMT/IRT). What if passengers have to make multiple transfers between the three systems? "
That is a side effect of a merged system. It did not have to be a merger under municipal ownership! Also do not lose sight of the fact that this was NOT the city's intention in forcing the BMT and IRT to sell out. In 1940 the city did NOT provide free transfers between divisions. A limited number of free transfers were made available as a way of selling a 100% fare increase to the public in 1947.
What amazes me is the city's hypocrisy. The BMT couldn't charge an extra fare to Coney Island BUT the City later charged a double fare to Rockaway. The BMT and IRT could only charge five cents to the 1939 Worlds Fair BUT the IND charged 10 cents!!!
Free transfers had nothing to do with the takeover. Politics had everything to do with it!
In a 1993 editorial, BARRON'S writes: "The fundamental problem in New York, as reflected in its subway system, is the pattern of using public funds to lure private investment in fixed structures, which are then regulated into insolvency and taken over... This is a long and tedious process -- the public is still using IRT facilities first opened in 1904, that haven't shown a profit since 1932 and that have been out of private hands since 1940. A good investment endures long after the people who make it, and long after the people who steal it." (Barrons 12/13/1993 pp. 10)
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
["Both companies would have been just fine if the City hadn't gone out of its way to kill them."
Fine for passengers not transfering to the competing systems (IND/BMT/IRT). What if passengers have to make multiple transfers between the three systems?]
Just allow free transfers and prorate revenues between the competing companies--it would still be in a company's interest to attract as many passengers as possible.
I think you underestimate the public destruction of rail. Roads were built with taxpayer dollars, and do not pay property taxes. Rail lines were built with private dollars (except the subways which were paid for by the city), and (again except for the subway) paid property taxes.
I believe that if the state paid for the rail ROW, the way it pays to maintain state highways, and local governments took care of the stations, since they raise local property values, then the subways could have made money. They can today -- on an "auto-equivalent basis." Maybe that wasn't true ten years ago (after 40 years of mis-management and subsidized road construction) but it is today.
[Posted by Larry Littlefield on Mon Jan 3 18:42:30 2000, in response to Re: NEW RAPID TRANSIT SERVICE IN NEW YORK., posted by Josh Hill on Sun Jan 2 19:07:35 2000
I think you underestimate the public destruction of rail. Roads were built with taxpayer dollars, and do not pay property taxes. Rail lines were built with private dollars (except the subways which were paid for by the city), and (again except for the subway) paid property taxes.
I believe that if the state paid for the rail ROW, the way it pays to maintain state highways, and local governments took care of the stations, since they raise local property values, then the subways could have made money. They can today -- on an "auto-equivalent basis." Maybe that wasn't true ten years ago (after 40 years of mis-management and subsidized road construction) but it is today.]
Larry, not sure who you're responding to, but it couldn't be me since I agree 100% . . .
"Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. "
The only problem with this statement is that the lines were not up for sale. The Dual Contracts of 1913 contained two provisions that virtually beat the companies into submission. First the SACRED FIVE CENT FARE -- No company can survive if its cost structure keeps rising while its revenue remains constant or declines. Ironically this provision made sense in 1913 when prices were constant before US involvement in WWI. However the post-war economy entered into an inflationary spiral that was not predicted or provided for in the contracts. Yet the city insisted on keeping the fare constant. How many defense contractors absorb their cost overruns today?
The other weapon the city used to force a sale was the threat of re-capture. The contracts allowed the city to re-capture the city owned lines after 10 years. The city threatened to invoke this provision and leave the BMT with a fragmented and unprofitable system IF it did not agree to sell out.
Bottom line - the city didn't take over the system to save it ( a fare increase and/or re-negotiating the contracts would have accomplished that). It needed the profits that the BMT was generating in order to compensate for the red ink the IND was literally hemorraging. And the IND was built not simply to expand service to areas not previously served, but to accelerate the demise of the companies whose routes it duplicated. A business analogy would be -- build an identical store next to your competitor and undercut them until they are forced to sell their business to you. Then close their store.
And although the IRT was bankrupt - its subway division was profitable. The IRT itself would have loved to be able to abandon or curtail its elevated lines but it was bound by lease obligations to the shareholders/bondholders of the Manhattan Railway Co. The city with powers far beyond those of any private company was able to accomplish what the IRT couldn't. Note that the city abandoned the IRT els not just because they were "eyesores" -- they were also the most unprofitable parts of the system at the time. Abandoning them was clearly an attempt to make the system profitable.
The city was never entirely happy with the Dual Contracts. Virtually from the day they were signed its ultimate goal was municipal operation. It really believed that it should be the sole recipient of profits generated from a subway system.
If a private company did what the city did to the BMT/IRT they would probably have been tried for antitrust violations.
Jim
http://www.bmt-lines.com
"Remember, no other company volunteered to buy those line when they were up for sale. "
The only problem with this statement is that the lines were not up for sale. The Dual Contracts of 1913 contained two
provisions that virtually beat the companies into submission. First the SACRED FIVE CENT FARE -- No company can
survive if its cost structure keeps rising while its revenue remains constant or declines. Ironically this provision made sense in
1913 when prices were constant before US involvement in WWI. However the post-war economy entered into an inflationary
spiral that was not predicted or provided for in the contracts. Yet the city insisted on keeping the fare constant. How many
defense contractors absorb their cost overruns today?
The other weapon the city used to force a sale was the threat of re-capture. The contracts allowed the city to re-capture the
city owned lines after 10 years. The city threatened to invoke this provision and leave the BMT with a fragmented and
unprofitable system IF it did not agree to sell out.
Bottom line - the city didn't take over the system to save it ( a fare increase and/or re-negotiating the contracts would have
accomplished that). It needed the profits that the BMT was generating in order to compensate for the red ink the IND was
literally hemorraging. And the IND was built not simply to expand service to areas not previously served, but to accelerate the
demise of the companies whose routes it duplicated. A business analogy would be -- build an identical store next to your
competitor and undercut them until they are forced to sell their business to you. Then close their store.
And although the IRT was bankrupt - its subway division was profitable. The IRT itself would have loved to be able to
abandon or curtail its elevated lines but it was bound by lease obligations to the shareholders/bondholders of the Manhattan
Railway Co. The city with powers far beyond those of any private company was able to accomplish what the IRT couldn't.
Note that the city abandoned the IRT els not just because they were "eyesores" -- they were also the most unprofitable parts of
the system at the time. Abandoning them was clearly an attempt to make the system profitable.
The city was never entirely happy with the Dual Contracts. Virtually from the day they were signed its ultimate goal was
municipal operation. It really believed that it should be the sole recipient of profits generated from a subway system.
If a private company did what the city did to the BMT/IRT they would probably have been tried for antitrust violations.
Jim
http://www.bmt-lines.com
Thank you. Very well put, and very informative. People need to know the truth. New York City politicians have never been lilly-white. Just look at Boss Tweed. The tradition of dishonest dealings, graft and downright unethical practice, and in some cases, illegality goes on.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Interesting article. I could see the old BMT elevated system still in operation with Bluebirds, green Hornets and Zeypher trains plying the rails. Maybe even the old Manhattan el system could have been saved (especially on the east side).
Oh well ...
Free enterprise and private ownership sees to it that the transit system exists and is run for the benefit of the riding public. Once the City, with their dirty politics and graft gets their hands on something, the attitude is "Let the public be damned"! After all, to increase profits, the company wants to please the customer. Therefore the private transit company will provide better service. There's no incentive for a municipally-owned transit system to try to please the public. Just remember, the BMT and IRT were in competition. The passengers were the winners. The TA is a monopoly. The passengers are the losers. ]
Right on.
I initially got involved in these groups because I like trains, but I find that as I've learned I've become radicalized. After the early years of almost frantic construction, nothing significant has been built in the 59 years since the City took over the subways, and what's left uses technology that's 100 years old. Enough studies, plans, excuses--the only possible answer to New York City's transit problems is privatization.
"Public Be Damned" is a quote from Cornelious Vanderbilt, one of the most prominent of the robber barons of the so called "Gilded Age" and has no place in laissez-faire anti government rhetoric
["Public Be Damned" is a quote from Cornelious Vanderbilt, one of the most prominent of the robber barons of the so called "Gilded Age" and has no place in laissez-faire anti government rhetoric.]
That means nothing; I am not proposing a monopoly. But even if I were--would you rather have a government software company or the very monopolistic Microsoft?
For a fair indication of the quality difference between even monopoly private and government operation, compare American phone service to the phone service in European countries, where it's provided by the government. 'Nuff said.
This is scary Josh, but you are right. Also Lenin would have loved how the City built the IND to STEAL the BMT from it's owners. As for private ownership of the subways today, that's a tough one. Automation certainly would produce economies by reducing headcount and skill levels. but security and policing would require plenty of people and the system would have to be capable of manual operation in case of computer malfunction which would put us back where we started from with manpower. Procurement, OTOH Well we could send Boss Tweed packing and gain savings thru greater organizational agility than the MTA could ever have. This would be a good assignment for a college economics class. I have my doubts, but they are not strong ones. If there is no government subsidized competition, a privately owned rail system should have no problem EARNING it's keep
[This is scary Josh, but you are right. Also Lenin would have loved how the City built the IND to STEAL the BMT from it's owners. As for private ownership of the subways today, that's a tough one. Automation certainly would produce economies by reducing headcount and skill levels. but security and policing would require plenty of people and the system would have to be capable of manual operation in case of computer malfunction which would put us back where we started from with manpower. Procurement, OTOH Well we could send Boss Tweed packing and gain savings thru greater organizational agility than the MTA could ever have. This would be a good assignment for a college economics class. I have my doubts, but they are not strong ones. If there is no government subsidized competition, a privately owned rail system should have no problem EARNING it's keep]
It's a fascinating problem. The MTA at this point is a bit like those Soviet-era state enterprises that are so difficult to privatize. On the other hand, those companies face competition, and the subways don't. The answer might be to build the system up first the way the Feds did with Conrail, because I don't think anyone would want to inherit it the way it is, with so much of the plant in terrible shape and a union-labor situation so ugly there are four managers for every employee. Then too, who would want to invest in the new companies, given the City's record of intentionally destroying the old ones? Perhaps the City and State could be the major investors, but own only non-voting stock.
The staffing problem isn't that serious. We could cut the MTA's staff in half today without harming service, just by going to OPTO, installing iron maidens, replacing the token clerks with cameras and a small floating security force, etc. Everyone seems to get upset when you suggest eliminating token agents, but the truth is it works fine--the PATH stations for example are completely unattended, and OPTO is increasingly the norm for subway operation in other areas. And everything I've ever seen of other MTA operations suggests the worst kind of overstaffing--just look at all those guys who do nothing but mill around when they collect the garabage or put in a bench.
With automation, the staff could be cut even further, but it seems to me that unatended operation would require platform doors for safety. Computer reliability isn't a problem in a properly designed redundant system--the only thing that should ever bring down a system of that type is a major disaster like a fire, or a blackout that would bring trains to a halt in any system. (I've heard of automated systems that are less reliable and need to be babysat by human operators, but they represent either old technology or design so incompetent that speaking as an electrical engineer I can't say anything foul enough about the people who designed them.)
That means nothing; I am not proposing a monopoly. But even if I were--would you rather have a government software company or the very monopolistic Microsoft?
I'd rather have Microsoft software, than inferior governmental crap. I use Windows 98, MS Plus, MS Outlook Express, MS Internet Explorer, MS Office 2000, MS Money, MS Pinball Arcade and MSN for my ISP. The government couldn't do anything right. As much as we all make Bill Gates the brunt of our jokes, Bill Gates knows how to make software. The man has the world on a string. Even Communist China, Yugoslavia and Iraq use Microsoft products; yes, even our enemies. During the Kosovo crisis, I visited the official Yugoslav web site. MS FrontPage was used to design it. Getting to your main point, I'd much rather see private ownership of the rapid transit system. There would be less waste and more efficiency. After all, the company would have to make a profit.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
NO RAPID TRANSIT COMPANY ANY WHERE MAKES A PROFIT. The only Private Rapid Transit Companies in the world are in Hong Kong and Tokyo, and they are subsisidized heavely(Spelling) by the local govts. Transit is for the convience of the public. If here in this country Rapid Transit were private, you will not be paying $1.50 a ride, You would be paying a base fare of probably $3.00 and then tmore per zone. Why do you think the railroads went out of the passenger business. NO PROFITS. 1940 was 60 years ago and a different world., Yes the MTA is stupid and wasteful, but it is better then some other systems. You have 24/7 service. the same fare for the entire routing, a decent schedule. Where else to you have this in the United States or Canada, or anywhere in the world. Oh if they stayed privatised, you would be stiull riding in Low Volts at 5 mph, R 1-9 Standards, because it would take the profit out of buying new cars. Look what Amtrack got in 1971 Junk.
"Oh if they stayed privatised, you would be still riding in Low Volts at 5 mph, R 1-9 Standards"
I don't think we will ever know the answer to that BUT judging from the Bluebirds, unveiled by the BMT in 1939, I cannot agree. A lot of innovation and progress was stifled when the city took over. Only in recent years has the MTA come around (kicking and screaming) to realize that its passengers are customers, not a herd of cattle.
As to whether or not to subsidize -- that is a political decision made for purely political reasons. All I can say is that a lot of industries are subsidized yet they are not under total government ownership like the transit industry. The Mets and Yankees play in gov't owned stadia yet the teams are privately owned (the so-called rent they pay doesn't even begin to cover the true cost of the stadium). Airlines use gov't owned and SUBSIDIZED airports yet they are privately owned. Trucking firms operate on government subsidized roads, etc.. etc.. And don't get me started on all the real estate tax abatements developers get!
It is an irony that the government had to finally run the passenger railroad business because it subsidized their competition to the point that railroads could no longer compete fairly.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
"Oh if they stayed privatised, you would be still riding in Low Volts at 5 mph, R 1-9 Standards"
I don't think we will ever know the answer to that BUT judging from the Bluebirds, unveiled by the BMT in 1939, I cannot agree. A lot of innovation and progress was stifled when the city took over. Only in recent years has the MTA come around (kicking and screaming) to realize that its passengers are customers, not a herd of cattle.
As to whether or not to subsidize -- that is a political decision made for purely political reasons. All I can say is that a lot of industries are subsidized yet they are not under total government ownership like the transit industry. The Mets and Yankees play in gov't owned stadia yet the teams are privately owned (the so-called rent they pay doesn't even begin to cover the true cost of the stadium). Airlines use gov't owned and SUBSIDIZED airports yet they are privately owned. Trucking firms operate on government subsidized roads, etc.. etc.. And don't get me started on all the real estate tax abatements developers get!
It is an irony that the government had to finally run the passenger railroad business because it subsidized their competition to the point that railroads could no longer compete fairly.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Good point. No private company providing a public service can get by without subsidies. Look at the utilities. They are privately owned, and guaranteed a profit, to boot! You can have privately-owned transit, and not have the stupidity and waste that comes along with governmental operation. A private company, with a profit incentive will be run more efficiently that a governmental operation, and will be more inclined to please the customer to make even more profit. We would not be riding R-9's and Lo-V's if the BMT was still private. The BMT was so innovative and advanced, that even the Bluebirds and Multi's would have been replaced long ago by something probably more modern than the R-142.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[NO RAPID TRANSIT COMPANY ANY WHERE MAKES A PROFIT. The only Private Rapid Transit Companies in the world are in Hong Kong and Tokyo, and they are subsisidized heavely(Spelling) by the local govts. Transit is for the convience of the public. If here in this country Rapid Transit were private, you will not be paying $1.50 a ride, You would be paying a base fare of probably $3.00 and then tmore per zone. Why do you think the railroads went out of the passenger business. NO PROFITS. 1940 was 60 years ago and a different world., Yes the MTA is stupid and wasteful, but it is better then some other systems. You have 24/7 service. the same fare for the entire routing, a decent schedule. Where else to you have this in the United States or Canada, or anywhere in the world. Oh if they stayed privatised, you would be stiull riding in Low Volts at 5 mph, R 1-9 Standards, because it would take the profit out of buying new cars. Look what Amtrack got in 1971 Junk.]
Nothing could be further from the truth. You say that no rapid transit company in the world makes a profit, but then you effectively say that there are only two private transit companies left in the world! Any company will of course have to be subsidized if you want the fares to be lower than actual costs or mandate uneconomical services. For example, that "decent scheduling" of which you speak includes running 8 car trains to the boondocks every 20 minutes at 3 AM, some of them carrying only 1 or 2 people. Needless to say, that sort of useless service costs anyone a fortune. It's also necessary for government to subsidize a private operation to the extent that it subsidizes its competition. For example, government builds, maintains, and polices roads, and collects no taxes on them; to place mass transit on an equal footing, it would have to do the same. That's why I think privatization would have to proceed along the lines proposed by Larry Littlefield, with tax money paying for the tracks and operating revenues paying for the stock. Interestingly enough, it might even be possible to allow multiple companies to compete on *the same line*, a la the Baby Bells arrangement.
But whether or not subsidies are required, private enterprise can do a better, more efficient job of running a system than the government can. And keep in mind that because of its extreme density, NYC is not comparable to most other cities. The original transit companies were profitable here until the government killed them in an attempt to take their profits. What happened instead was that the government made them unprofitable, raised the fares, and stopped building the system.
You're completly wrong about the quality of the service and equipment, BTW. Check out "Back to the Future: New York's Lost Transit Legacy" by Paul Matus http://rapidtransit.com/net/home.htm to see how innovative the BMT was, and how far back it went technologically when the government took it over. The bad state of the private railroads when Amtrak took them over is not at all comparable: they went bust because in most cases rail transit isn't competitive in an age of planes and automobiles, and because of government subsidies, tax abatements, and regulations that made them even less competitive. Because of the density of the business districts, that isn't true of the New York region; people are almost as likely to use the subway today as they were sixty years ago. Even under MTA management the NYC subways have a much higher farebox recovery ratio than other transit systems.
I know NYC has a high density, but so does Hong Kong, London, Paris, Tokyo and other large cities. Yes the Govt does a crappy job running it. So to save money, shorten the trains in off hours. You are right why run a 8-10 car train at 3.00 in the AM, 2-4 would do. Install more machines in terminals to sell the Metro Cards. Attrition off the token booth people or assign them to other jobs. Invest in 1 person trains, promote conductors to operators, stop hireing new people until really necessary. Private Ownership can run a business better, but a subway system who knows
You are right why run a 8-10 car train at 3.00 in the AM, 2-4 would do.
When did they start running 8-10 car trains at 3 AM? I always remember 4-car trains late at night.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I know NYC has a high density, but so does Hong Kong, London, Paris, Tokyo and other large cities. Yes the Govt does a crappy job running it. So to save money, shorten the trains in off hours. You are right why run a 8-10 car train at 3.00 in the AM, 2-4 would do. Install more machines in terminals to sell the Metro Cards. Attrition off the token booth people or assign them to other jobs. Invest in 1 person trains, promote conductors to operators, stop hireing new people until really necessary.]
I couldn't agree with you more. It's the obviousness of the overstaffing that gets me. Use attrition, buyouts, and put surplus employees who want to stay to work doing things that will benefit the passengers!
[Getting to your main point, I'd much rather see private ownership of the rapid transit system. There would be less waste and more efficiency. After all, the company would have to make a profit.]
Amazing how much of a difference that makes, isn't it?
I worked for the City one summer when I was a kid. Nice people who cared about what they were doing, but I don't think anybody ever put in more than half a day of actual work--the economic pressure just wasn't there.
"No. The best thing for NYC Transit would be if that bastard Hylan wasn't born, or at least never elected mayor. The BMT might have went out and bought the bankrupt IRT, creating a different kind of unification. Then the advantages of the Fulton Subway over the El would be completely eliminated (the subway wouldn't be built), by
connecting the Park Row BMT terminal to the IRT terminal. The combined lines would run Bluebirds."
What a stupid idea.
N Broadway Line
"No. The best thing for NYC Transit would be if that bastard Hylan wasn't born, or at least never elected mayor. The BMT might have went out and bought the bankrupt IRT, creating a different kind of unification. Then the advantages of the Fulton Subway over the El would be completely eliminated (the subway wouldn't be built), by
connecting the Park Row BMT terminal to the IRT terminal. The combined lines would run Bluebirds."
What a stupid idea.
N Broadway Line
No, its a great idea. As for Hylan, he should have been drawn and quartered.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I don't know why they are so many ungrateful people on subtalk. But they are plenty.
The Fulton Street Line is one of the fastest routes in the City. Even the Queens Blvd/Roosevelt Avenue Lines can't compete. As for the elevated line that use to serve the same route, it is a far cry to what we have now. So, anyone who speaks against the fulton Street subway is speaking against "rapid" transit.
N Broadway Line
I don't know why they are so many ungrateful people on subtalk. But they are plenty.
The Fulton Street Line is one of the fastest routes in the City. Even the Queens Blvd/Roosevelt Avenue Lines can't compete. As for the elevated line that use to serve the same route, it is a far cry to what we have now. So, anyone who speaks against the fulton Street subway is speaking against "rapid" transit.
N Broadway Line
No, the sterile, plain Fulton St. Subway is a far cry from the ornate Victorian work of art that we used to have. Anyone who speaks against the els, the Patriarch of Rapid Transit is speaking against Rapid Transit. I'm having an "EL" of a time convinving you of this.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT,
Most people aren't interested in looks, but how fast a train can get them to work. You make up the minority, even amongst subway fans.
N Broadway Line
DING
End of round 1
BMT,
Most people aren't interested in looks, but how fast a train can get them to work. You make up the minority, even amongst
subway fans.
N Broadway Line
I don't think so. Besides, if people are only interested in how fast a train can get them to work, then why even bother tiling the walls of stations, and why even bother running subway cars? Box cars can run just as fast. You can't appreciate anything nice, only things that are sterile and mundane. I'd hate to think of what the IRT First Subway would have looked like if you were in charge of designing it. It would have had plain bathroom-like tile, no vaulted ceilings, no bas relief, no mosaics - just sterile bathroom tile.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Just watching Al Pacino in Carlito s Way chase scene on old Red Bird 8355 4 to Grand Central, but since when does amtrack run the Silver Star from GCT and not Penn Station Good shootout though
Let's not get carried away. The Fulton St. subway is much better than the old el It can carry a lot more people. It might be bland, but it serves it's neighborhoods better.
What would the condition of the BMT be in today if the Fulton St. el was still up and connected into the Dekalb ave complex (as was planned), plus having the old Culver line connected into the 4th Ave line? With only 2 tracks across the Manny B?
WHY DID THEY KNOCK DOWN THE CULVER SHUTTLE? THAT SHUTTLE WOULD BE GREAT TODAY FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME THAT HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY TO 9TH STREET AND CLIMB ALL THOSE STAIRS.
Ridership on that line was almost zero.
YEA BUT THAT WAS LIKE 100 YEARS AGO.
No, it was in the early 1970's when it was torn down. Since it has been gone, I can guarantee it has been excatly zero. LOL
WELL I REALLY THINK IF IT WAS AROUND 2DAY ALOT OF PEOPLE WOULD USE IT TODAY SINCE ALL THAT WARRIORS (GANGS OF THE 70'S )STUFF HAS ALMOST GONE AWAY.
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP POSTING IN CAPS????!!!!!!
Not true. Ridership was down because of the TA's destructive service patterns (a 1 track shuttle guaranteed to make it an undesirable alternative to any other line). But people used it all the way up to it's final day.
Not true. Ridership was down because of the TA's destructive service patterns (a 1 track shuttle guaranteed to make it an undesirable alternative to any other line). But people used it all the way up to it's final day.
Yeah, if you lived near either the Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. or 13th Ave. station, you were best off taking the shuttle in whatever direction it was going, rather than waiting for it to make the return trip. Single-track service on that line designed its demise. If you could walk to any other line, even if the shuttle was closer, I guess that's what the TA wanted you to do. The TA wanted to close the line. If they really wanted to keep the shuttle, they should have had 2 trains running on 2 tracks, except during owl hours, when single-train service would have been OK.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Although I have to agree that ridership was nil and the line really did not stand a chance I must say that from a railfan point of view it was one of the best lines to ride, with the great Standards and both the 9th Av station and the Ditmas Av station. Whenever I went to my grandmothers house on the "F" at Van Siclen I always took the West End-Culver Shuttle-"F" Train route.
Jeff did your Grandmother Life in Wabash, Leftrack or Brightwater, and it is now Neptune Ave Station
Warbash (sp?). The white building right next to the station. She had a great 20th floor view with miles of the Belt but the only train you could see from her building was the Brighton crossing the Belt by Neck Rd and you really needed binoculars for that. By the way she moved there from 71th & 20th Av near the 20th Sea Beach Station.
Warbasse.
My Aunt used to live in Brightwater on the 21st Floor looking North and East. Great View of the yards and toward Brighton Beach. My cousin who took over the apt just moved to Joisey, that last of my Brooklyn Family.
My father's cousin used to live on 71st, just off New Utrecht. We visited them in July of 1965, at the time of my very first subway ride, and those trains rumbling in and out of that station had me mesmerized. I almost wanted to go for a ride right then and there.
Although I have to agree that ridership was nil and the line really did not stand a chance I must say that from a railfan point of view it was one of the best lines to ride, with the great Standards and both the 9th Av station and the Ditmas Av station. Whenever I went to my grandmothers house on the "F" at Van Siclen I always took the West End-Culver Shuttle-"F" Train route.
Yes, the Culver Shuttle was nice. Even though it was allowed to rot, it always maintained the same 1916 look as always - Dual Contracts BMT all the way. I made the last run when the line closed. The TA should have put the D-Type into service for the last run, instead of a silver and blue R-27. There was one instance when the D-Type ran on the Shuttle in regular service for 1 round trip during a fan trip in the 1970's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the MTA had not reduced the line to a 1 track shuttle and kept through service, then the line would have been more heavily patronized, and it would probably still be in existance today.
I have a friend who lives about 1 block from the old 13th Ave. station. I have to walk from Ditmas to get there today. That sucks.
The union opposed that, the Third Av and the Myrtle Av elevateds destruction. Still hate us?
You know, I never said I hated you. I just had some strong disagreements.
Can't we agree to disagree?
The union opposed that, the Third Av and the Myrtle Av elevateds destruction. Still hate us?
The union opposed what? thru service on the Culver? Also, what does the union have to do with closing the 3rd Ave. and Myrtle Ave. Els?
Actually, what should have been done with the Culver Line was dual service - both BMT and IND. The BMT should have run Nassau-4th Ave. Culver service to Stillwell along with IND 6th Ave. South Brooklyn service on the Culver to Stillwell. Too much servie=ce, you say? Not really. Run the BMT Culver-Nassau service to Stillwell during rush hours only, with service terminating at Ditmas all other times. That would have necessatated having a switch at grade at Ditmas, but it could have been done, just like the switch at grade on the Broadway and Myrtle lines. Just like I feel that they should have maintained the BMT Fulton St. El from Atlantic Ave. to 80th St. and run dual service. The BMT service would be 14th St.-Fulton serviec from 8th Ave. to Lefferts, while also running the A out there. I have no problems with IND expansion over BMT trackage. Just don't eliminate the original BMT service over this trackage altogether, like has been done with Fulton St. and Culver. If anyone has a problem with this:
1) I am a hard core BMT buff.
2) I advocate increased service, not service cuts, or service replacement.
As for where the TA is going to get the money to increase and expand service, cut out the waste and spend it on transit expansion. The TA has too many (high-paid) chiefs and not enough Indians. Cut down on the political managerial waste, and there will be plenty of money for improved and expanded service. Let the managerial do-nothing featherbedders go out and get real jobs, and do some work for a change, instead of sitting on their a--es and telling everhone else in operations what to do.
After all, when the BMT connecton to the Queens IND line was opened in 1955, there was no service replacement. That connection provided a service expansion. They could have cut the GG (G today) back to Queens Plaza (there was no 23-Ely/Court Sq. transfer at the time) and ran the Broadway BMT to Continental Ave. at all times for the local service, but they didn't do that.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There is one thing I think we all can agree on, transit
management operates the system in a manner that is convient
to them. The 63rd street connector will result in the
permanent cutback of G service to Court Square. Is this in
the riders interests? No? Surprise, surprise.
The TA could run Broadway Express service tommorow using
the crossovers at Canal Street, but they won't. Why? It's
inconvient for them, that's why. Who cares if express service
was suspended in December 1990, not transit that's for sure.
Those 2 analogies are flawed. The G cutback will benefit the Queens IND riders, as the G line is useless to most of them because of it's lack of access to Manhattan. The G will be replaced by a Manhattan-bound train. The Broadway express tracks are unused because they really wouldn't offer any time savings if the N was switched to the exp. tracks north of Canal. The trains merge together again at 57th St. Why cut service to Bway local stations by 50% if it doesn't benefit anyone else?
Chris R. is right about the Culver demise when he says, "What really started the demise of the shuttle was the termination of thru service in 1959. The limitation to a one track line was another fatal blow. Allowing the remainder of the line to decay through the 60's and early 70's finished the old girl off," though I wouldn't use the gender-specific label.
Another posting said that the IND connection killed it off, but the fact is that it didn't--apparently too many people were still riding the Culver so it had to be cut back to 9th Avenue to force them off the trains. Culver trains at least gave riders an express service in rush hours and express connections at 36th Street the rest of the time (until, of course, the TA improved 4th Avenue service by eliminating overnight expresses). And who wanted to ride a "D 6th Avenue Express" that ran local from Stillwell Avenue to Columbus Circle"?
On the issue of cutting Crosstown service back to Court Square, it sure doesn't help people at Queens Plaza to lose a quarter of their service--why G service cannot continue to operate to Queens Plaza still eludes my understanding. How many people have been riding G trains to Queens Plaza and beyond all these years? Or is the plan for Crosstown based on the Culver experience? (Underground lines can be abandoned as easily as elevated structures.)
There was a mention of Broadway express service in Manhattan--that it would reduce sevice at local stations. Don't forget it was the TA that cut Broadway service by 60%--from three expresses and two locals to two locals (and only one at night). Overall, there isn't very much additional service in Midtown since Chrystie and the Sixth Avenue express tracks opened and it's been riders from southern Brooklyn and Bay Ridge who have been shafted by the TA--no wonder they don't want to ride the trains.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Gee. I'm really glad I'm not the only one who sees just how badly the subways are operated.
For all the tremendous strides that have been made in the last decade in equipment reliability, cleanliness, track improvements and the MetroCard, operations has taken TEN STEPS BACKWARD!
Thank you all(Chris too) for seeing what I see and having the nerve to say so!
While I appreciate Ed's comments, there has to be some acknowledgement of the relationship between costs and revenues. Did the TA have more cars back when? If so, did it require more people to operate and maintain them? That costs money, and until the recent ridership surges, the TA didn't have it. When the money came in, it was captured by higher wages (Mr. R46 should appreciate that) and lower fares. Sometimes you have to get rid of underutilized A to get much needed and improved B, often serving the same area.
As per the Broadway line, there was a huge decline in population in Bed Stuy and Bushwick from 1965 to 1990, and an even huger decline in population that worked, so service had to be cut or it would have run empty. The G is surely needed -- I've advocated spending them money on connections and running it through Manhattan as a loop -- and if you can't get rid of the shuttle, you can't get rid of the G.
The TA cut spending to survive in the recession. Now they have a car shortage, but things are still better than they were, and where things are really bad its the lack of rail space that is the problem (ie. the east side, the Manhattan Bridge.
I wonder where all the Bay Ridge politicians have been, from Chris Mega, Sue Molinari and Sal Albanese at the beginning of the 90s to whoever is in there now. They're not exerting much pressure on the MTA to restore express service to Manhattan, I know that for sure.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Where are the Bay Ridge polticians?)
Brooklyn politicians do not care about mass transit. The Archie Bunker whites drive, the native born non-whites just care about their social service patronage machines, the rest of us are not represented.
The Manhattan Bridge is the proof of that. Most politicians DRIVE over the Brooklyn Bridge to get to City Hall, and the Triboro to get to Albany.
Instead of complaining about cuts in service. Get a Petition, stand outside the subway station and get people to sign it, Enough of you guys go out there and send it to the Times, the MTA everyone and see what happens.
They cut one bus route in LA from Downtown to Northridge in the mid 80s, enough people complained that they brought it back, and nobody rides that bus except College Students, Domestics and Seniors
I think a petition drive to save the Culver Shuttle would be pointless, as the structure is long gone. I might have tried this when it was shut down, but I was only 3 years old in 1975.
Hey it's never too late: let's get a petition drive to demolish the new housing on the old Culver/SBK ROW and get MTA to rebuild the el...
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
The IND connection from Church is what killed the shuttle. And I would only sign the petition if it brought back Standards and old SIRT cars. Adding just 2 more stations and just using the boring new equipment is pointless.
What really started the demise of the shuttle was the termination of thru service in 1959. The limitation to a one track line was another fatal blow. Allowing the remainder of the line to decay through the 60's and early 70's finished the old girl off.
What really started the demise of the shuttle was the termination of thru service in 1959. The limitation to a one track line was another fatal blow. Allowing the remainder of the line to decay through the 60's and early 70's finished the old girl off.
The Culver Shuttle's demise occurred in stages. You're both right. The first stage was routing main culver service on the IND, significantly reducing the importance of what we knew as the Shuttle. The second stage was eliminating thru service, which rendered the Ft. Hamilton Parkway and 13th Ave. stations practically useless. In reducing shuttle service to 1 train on 1 track, people close to those 2 stations now had the incentive to shy away from the infrequent service on the Shuttle and walk a little further to a station where they did have thru service. Allowing the sShuttle to rot drove more passengers away, until the TA was justified in ending service due to "lack of ridership". All pre-planned and pre-meditated murder. Yes, the Shuttle was murdered. The rotted-out 1-track shuttle, with the other 2 tracks removed was a painful site to a railfan. Its disgusting how a couple of stations that were once part of the important main Culver Line could just be cut out like that. They disected the line and rerouted it. We know the line on Mcdonald Ave. as the Culver line because we're railfans and we know the history, but the average young person today, who doesn't know the original BMT (BRT) route just knows it as the F-Train in Brooklyn, and probably doesn't even know that the original route didn't go into the tunnel, and that there were a couple of stations that no longer exist on a ROW that no longer exists.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
We know the line on Mcdonald Ave. as the Culver line because we're railfans and we know the history, but the average young person today, who doesn't know the original BMT (BRT) route just knows it as the F-Train in Brooklyn ...
Perhaps not. The R-46 signs do say "F-6th Av/Culver Lcl". I suspect most people might ask who or what is Culver .....
--Mark
Perhaps not. The R-46 signs do say "F-6th Av/Culver Lcl". I suspect most people might ask who or what is Culver .....
--Mark
You mean the TA finally wised up and started designating lines by their names again? The original R-44/46 rollsigns with the strip maps didn't designate "Culver" for the F.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The R-32s and R-38s feature the old Southern Division titles on their side route signs as well. For instance, N trains of R-32s will say, "N-Astoria/B'way/Sea Beach" on their signs.
The R-32s and R-38s feature the old Southern Division titles on their side route signs as well. For instance, N trains of R-32s will say, "N-Astoria/B'way/Sea Beach" on their signs.
Yeah, some of the pre-Chrystie St. sinage did, but nothing for the D or the F ever indicated Culver. It was always D|6th Ave. Exp. pr F|6th Ave. Exp. I don't ever recall seeing an R-40, 42, 44 or 46 with the strip map sinage ever indicating Culver either. BTW, the R-32's and R-38's only indicated the letter with Broadway - eg.: N|Broadway Exp. It was the R-27's that had the name of the line as well - eg.: QT|Broadway Brighton Local Via Tunnel. I guess it was so that people who didn't know the new letter system for the BMT still knew what train they were getting on, whereas, once the R-32's came out, they were probably expected to know by then.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It wasn't until the GOH'ed cars started showing up with new signs did the term "Culver" finally get returned to the F line. If you look at maps made before then, the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End lines are marked by their name. Not so for the F. My 1958 map also shows these lines labeled by name, but only the shuttle was marked as "Culver". I think the TA dropped that name when it was transferred to the IND in 1956, and brought it back later.
It wasn't until the GOH'ed cars started showing up with new signs did the term "Culver" finally get returned to the F line. If you look at maps made before then, the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End lines are marked by their name. Not so for the F. My 1958 map also shows these lines labeled by name, but only the shuttle was marked as "Culver". I think the TA dropped that name when it was transferred to the IND in 1956, and brought it back later.
Any pre-Chrystie St. Hagstrom maps after 1954 that I've seen have had the "Culver" Line labeled "IND Coney Island Line".
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/04/2000
I saw some signs referring to the old (D) Culver line as the "IND Concourse-Culver line". How about the large sign still hanging before the fare controls at Stillwell Terminal. Kevin Walsh, take note.
Bill Newkirk
>>>How about
the large sign still hanging before the fare controls at Stillwell Terminal. Kevin Walsh, take note. <<<
I snapped that sign last summer and hope to use it on a future Culver Line page on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The entrance area of Coney Island terminal has several old (non-transit) signs and ads in and around it. You could almost start another page with them! Like the old, faded, Coppertone ad right next to the entranceway.
If you want a laugh, there is an old map still situated in plain view at the 57th/6th Ave station, complete with the Culver Shuttle and the shuttle to South Ferry from Bowling Green, as well as J service to 168th St, and Sixth Ave/Bway K service. LOL.
Neither the K nor the Culver Shuttle are shown on this map.
Yes they are. I saw it 2 days ago. It faces an open stairwell, so it's very hard to catch.
And. last time I looked, K trains are still advertised at the IND entrance in front of the building on 8th and 15th.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And at the intersection of 96th & CPW.
I'm sorry I only remember railfanning on a line other than the Flushing from my past life, I'm stuck in an R-33 single here on the 7 and I can't move.
I use telepathy to go online, and I can only do so when my train is between 45th Road and Willets Point.
>>I use telepathy to go online, and I can only do so when my train is between 45th Road and Willets
Point. <<<
Which reminds me of a song lyric...
"I don't need no TV screen, I just stick the aerial into my skin and let the signal run through my veins."...
That would be the 8th Ave K route, which has only been gone 11 years. I'd give the TA a 20 year cushion for removing "old" signs. LOL
Not as bad as Chicago. There's one station that used to be closed Sundays (Thorndale) but they changed it to be open Sundays about 5 years ago. There's still a sign on the platform saying "Trains do not stop here Sundays, board 2 blocks north at Granville". Imagine if someone who hadn't used that station before saw that sign on a Sunday...
Oh, and even though the Evanston Express now makes all stops south of Belmont, there are no signs at the stations it now stops at to indicate that. And some of the route maps in the trains haven't even been changed out to indicate that the trains now make all stops.
Seems that the CTA just doesen't care about changing signs when service changes happen...
There's also an old sign pointing you to BMT and IND trains to New York over the entrance to the N line from Surf Ave.
--Mark
BTW- for years on end, there used to be a Culver Diner on 18th Av & McDonald, now gone. The old man who ran it claimed to remember wood cars with trolley poles running down the dirt street. Farther down 18th Av nr 86 St there still is the West End Bakery.
I've seen that bakery. Does anyone know where the "West End" title came from?? Not the bakery, the train line.
The West End was the Most Western Line until the 4th Ave was built. It ran as a street railway in the early days. See Brooklyn Elevated Railways for more info
Not because of that. Because it took the westernmost entry into Coney Island. It still does.
Not only was there a Diner named for The Culver Line but there was also the Culver theatre or Thee ater as we used to say in Brooklyn. I saw a Hard Days Night there in 64.
Culver Colision is still on 39 Street.
The Proprietor of the Culver Coffee shop remembers(Andrew R. Culver founder of the PP&CIRR) the surface rapid transit line prior to the construction of the elevated line on then Gravesend Avenue (now McDonald Ave after John B. McDonald)
The line began on 19St and Gravesend and ran to
Coney on the street. The wooden el cars had trolley poles and example of this equipment is at the Shoreline Electric Railway on Branford CT.I have a special affinity towards the old Culver Shuttle. It was cetainly an interesting place to see what equipment would wind up there. (LoV's, Staten Island Cars, AB's R-1-9's R-11's & R27's as well. Underneath you could watch the SBRWY haul grapes and Christmas trees and in off peak times watch the oldtimers play Bocci Ball between the rails.
Was John B. McDonald anything more than an IRT executive?
He was a real estate developer/ builder in Queens. His specialty was farmland to 7 story buildings.
It was the TA's standard transit kiling scheme. First, reduce service on the targeted line to a bare minimum. Second, place the worst of the system's rolling stock on said line. Finally, allow the infrastructure of the targeted line to decay over time. Drive as many people as possible away from using the targeted line, then when ridership falls to paltry levels, use that as an excuse to finally shut the poor thing down. This scenerio was repeated on the Myrtle Ave, Culver and 3rd Ave. lines. It almost succeeded in killing the Franklin Shuttle until people cried "no mas!".
The date was Saturday, March 23,1974. D-Types 6019 and 6045 on an ERA excursion made three round trips carrying regular passengers as well as the railfans. This was the last time that the D's ever ran in regular revenue service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The date was Saturday, March 23,1974. D-Types 6019 and 6045 on an ERA excursion made three round trips carrying regular passengers as well as the railfans. This was the last time that the D's ever ran in regular revenue service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Correction: The D-Type museum cars are 6019, 6095 and 6112. On that 3/23/1974 trip, 6019 and 6095 were used.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Your right. I should have had my glasses on.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Your right. I should have had my glasses on.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 2 museum trains that I've always been able to commit to memory have been D-Type 6019, 6095 and 6112; and A/B 2390, 2391 and 2392. I can't remember all the numbers on the Lo-V. I know there's 5290, 5292, (5466 is in Branford). I can't name any others. Trailor 4902 used to be part of the Lo-V. Do you know where it is? I don't remember the R-1/9 numbers either. I remember 100 and 484 are in the museum. I think 1000 is another. Wasn't 1802 another. What about 103?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
1802 is in Albany, IIRC. I haven't seen 1000 at the museum; 100, 484, and poor old 1575 are on display there.
Triplex 6045 was involved in that cataclysmic collision with 6078 at Stillwell Ave in 1955. Basically, they took the good sections of both units and put them together.
2 Triplex trains crashing into another? Which one won that engagement, the immovable object, or the unstoppable force?
2 Triplex trains crashing into another? Which one won that engagement, the immovable object, or the unstoppable force?
It was a tie. Like Steve B.-8th AvExp said, "Basically, they took the good sections of both units and put them together." Which unit composed 2 sections and which composed one, I don't know.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
By the way, 1802 in the State Museum in Albany is too much of a typical museum piece. You can only go in a small section of the car, the rest is behind glass with fake people. The seats are unfortunately fiberglass. The one thing I liked is the fake third rail. An employee tempted me to touch it but even though I knew it was fake I just couldn't do it!!
By the way, the rest of the museum was really great, some really good exhibits about the history of NYS and NYC. There is a whole reproduction of a Chainatown street. I really recommend it. Its worth it even if your just passing through Albany going somewhere else such as Lake George, Saratoga, Montreal, Buffalo, Niagara, etc.
As a young railfan I used to cut class from good 'ol Erasmus Hall High School just to enjoy the last days of the Culver Shuttle. As big a railfan I am (and a BMT one to boot) I must admit that when I rode it I literally had the train to myself. Granted this was midday, but still I spent around an hour going back-and-forth, back-and-forth and if TWENTY people got on that was ALOT.
It was the most useless of lines by time the 70's rolled around. Yes, it was a nice piece of Brooklyn rail history, but it's loss did not arouse much breast-beating or shedding of tears.
Doug aka BMTman
Let's stop the flaming. One can disagree without insults.
Let's stop the flaming. One can disagree without insults.
N Broadway Line is incapable of carrying on a dialogue without hurling insults.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
{To elaborate on my first sentence, els are noisy, will ALWAYS come with
opposition to their neighborhood. The only advantage of an el is being
able to see daylight, this does not outweigh the disadvantages, since I
never considered money in my expansions (it is fantasy after all) there
is no hurdle to building a subway as the extension.}
With newer elevated designs they probably can build els that make less noise. I have heard rumors that SEPTA installed a special kind of welded rail that decreased noise. Now if only that was used systemwide..
Obviously a modern, well-costructed el is less expensive deal than a subway. And a lot more fun to ride, given the etras that els provide. However, there will always be the NIMBY's regardless of what was being put in. Even planning a bus route brings the assortment of grief.
Joe C
With newer elevated designs they probably can build els that make less noise. I have heard rumors that SEPTA installed a special kind of welded rail that decreased noise. Now if only that was used systemwide..
If you want to see how quiet and high-tech a modern el can be, come to Miami. Its a shame that they don't have express service. Its 2-track. On the long stretches, the Metrorail can really kick up some speed, and its quiet! The line is ATO and 100% welded rail, except for the switches.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Not only Miam, but BART, WAMTA, many of the post 1970 systems have els built on concrete and are very quite, not like the older NY, Chic Philly or Boston Lines built on steel. I love rideing a el.
Defy,
This is one el that should be extended. Possibly to Springfield Avenue.
N Broadway Line
I advocated removal and replacement by subway under Linden Boulevard to the border with Nassau. I was going to keep it, but some people told me of the difficulty of finding a portal close enough to the east end of the current el.
You don't need a portal. If you really want to get rid of the Liberty Ave. el, extend the subway east from Grant Ave. You could build a portal to have the Rockaway section come to the surface in the middle of the old Rockaway line. (LIRR) If you extend the Libery Ave. line as an elevated, it will have to go over the Airtrain so it will have to be about 75 high at that point!
That's what my proposal was! Replacement by subway!
portal????? Explain? Yard, ends what?
N Broadway Line
Portal to continue as a subway.
The terms "improvements" and "revitalized" surely depends on the person looking at the area. To me? I was born and raised in the hub. I recall the days of riding the 'el', playing on the overpasses and the connections to the subway. Shopping was grand on 3rd Ave. My answer is No! I wasn't fooled at those neighborhood hearings concerning the 3rd ave corridor and the Penn Central. My question that I raised at that hearing was how they intended to convince people living a stone's throw away from 3rd ave that a train on Park Ave would suffice. Especially to the elderly. And in those days, you know, the days of the "Ronan Empire", we got NOTHING! They finally conceded to give free transfers at Gun Hill and at 149th St to the so-called BX55 express bus. See today what they give. I hear that the transfer is good only at one end. I'm not sure even if MetroCard covers it.
Anyone?
Joe C
Metrocard covers any transfer, it doesn't matter.
You can transfer at the northern end just like you can transfer from the S78 to the Bx29 with one Metrocard. Although you would have to walk from White Plains Road to Webster Avenue along Gun Hill Road.
It was not the Feds. It was the Republican Upstate Legislatures who never gave a rats tush for the Metro Area of New York. I remember a few times during the 50s, when there was a movement to make NYC a City State, since most of the state taxes came from the City, and only received 1/3 back.
Thats true indeed. The FED'S never gave a rats --- about N.Y.C. transportation, nor did the T.A[or M.T.A]for that matter.They only started caring when groups like the Straphangers Campain got involved with how terrible service was. If you doute me, ask around about the the FED'S and the 63rd street hole in the ground. If it was up to the T.A.,we wouldn't have the use of this route today. The FEDS made the MTA open this line for service,because if not, somebody was gonna pay back an 600 million dollar grant!
Just because most of Queens has no subway, doesn't mean they need it the most. That's evaluating the whole for justification for a part (I just made that up, and unlike other things I make up, it doesn't sound cool). You can take a part of Queens that has no subway, and it needs it as much as a part of Brooklyn or the Bronx that needs it. So Queens as a whole might need more subways, but the subways aren't going to go everywhere.
"and 2or 3 fare zones [YES THEY STILL EXIST]"
Where?
And THREE fare zones? I highly doubt that they exist. Three fare zones would require that FOUR bus routes be used to connect to the subway.
It is not much different in Philadelphia. Here, a study is under way to extend rail service on a 62 mile commuter (known here as reigonal) line out to a place called Reading. The option the planners favor is light rail and costs $1,500,000,000. But the catch is, that TRACKS EXIST FOR ALL OF THIS ROUTE. To make the so-called planners even stupider, this route was operating at commuter rail until the 1980s when SEPTA discontinued it. Yet around 20 miles of the routing are being operated as commuter rail right now. A commuter rail option is also studied, overpriced at around $5,000,000.
Believe me, I do not understand light rail. It seems like a cross between a modern, ultra-expensive trolley, to ultra-expensive commuter rail. Just because cities with no or litte transit service (St. Louis and San Diego) experienced sucess on their short LRT lines, does not mean that big cities with real transit connections (Philadelphia and New York) will be able to do this. Transit planners are just choosing LRT because everyone else does so, a behavior expected from teenagers, not so-called professionals.
[Transit planners are just choosing LRT because everyone else does so, a behavior expected from teenagers, not so-called professionals.]
I couldn't have said it better. It may have some uses in NYC, but only in light traffic areas--in much of Manhattan it would be a standing joke.
I could see light rail working for the HB line, but not for Airtrain or the Queens line that has been talked about.
[Why does it become a major problem to build new rail lines here in New York? Enviormental impact studies,meeting after meeting,design studies and contracts for design studies,neighborhood opions etc etc... Look, this is enough to make anybody thow up their hands and say"forgetaboutit"!!Anyway, the city has many defuct rail lines,mostly LIRR trackage,that can be used for transit routes. IF you and those to totally new ones,you will eventually reach those areas that don't have rail service. The IND second system planed for such a thing.If these route were built with modifications for mordern times,think of all the time that would be saved[from traveling,making connections and tranfering to buses,and 2or 3 fare zones [YES THEY STILL EXIST]].The MTA should consider most of the old 1929 IND system expantion as part of METRO EAST proposal.With this ,the system's route mileage would incress with line serving almost every neighborhood. Think about it. It would be a healthy investment.]
You can find lots of specific reasons, but the bottom line is that after the entire subway system was built between 1900-1941, either by or in competition with private enterprise (the City-owned IND was part of a remarkably obsessive effort by Mayor Hylan to put the private companies out of business, ostensibly because he'd once been fired from his job as a motorman). After the City successfully drove the private subway companies out of business and took over, subway construction stopped.
Oh, there are lots of excuses for why stuff never actually gets built, but after sixty years they're wearing a bit thin. Government has no profit motive, no competition, lots of seedy politics, and insane construction and operational costs. Committees convene and make recommendations, but what happens is ultimately determined by various forms of political piggery.
The City and state budgets could easily support the $1-$2 billion per year it would cost government to extend the system and make it truly functional, but that won't happen. The system needs to be privatized, this time with some very firm contractual guarantees for the operators; and given the number of hands in the pot, that won't happen either.
Dave kept his promise, and posted Mark's pics. Go to the R142 captions page to see them! the 14th and 15th pic show the front design, and it is exactly like the bombardier computer generated image, black on top and red on the bottom. Looks like Kawasaki's R142s will be the same as Bombardiers! -Nick
I LIKE I LIKE. I'm glad they didn't keep the wide doors. And hopefully
since I think that the door chime has become a tradition, they kept it.
From R1 to R68, the designations for the various types of cars are spaced fairly evenly. But after R68 it jumps to R110, then R142. Why did they skip so many numbers? Does 142 have some special meaning I don't know about? If I was numbering them, I would probably only be up to R88 or something like that.
Actually, if the Revenue Contract numbers corresponded to passenger stock only, then what we call the R-142 would be called the R-31. Check out this list.
Geez!! Some of the real young railfans may live to see the R-500's!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I hear the R500 is already on the drawing board. They specs call for them to have no seats to allow for the even more stringent ADA laws and their top speed of 3 MPH will make them the fastest in the entire subway system, which will consist of the Lexington and Queens Blvd lines. The rest of the system will have been closed because of collapsed tunnels, "community" pressure, or the idea that all el removal will give an economic spark to all the neighborhoods that had them.
Also the cars will be powered by Windows 2003, as a result, the cars will be unable to go more than 2 miles without crashing (electronically OR physically OR BOTH!). These cars will therefore have the highest MDBF.
I hear the R500 is already on the drawing board. They specs call for them to have no seats to allow for the even more stringent ADA laws and their top speed of 3 MPH will make them the fastest in the entire subway system, which will consist of the Lexington and Queens Blvd lines. The rest of the system will have been closed because of collapsed tunnels, "community" pressure, or the idea that all el removal will give an economic spark to all the neighborhoods that had them.
I thought it was going to be more on the order of a rickshaw with flanged wheels :-)
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Why is everyone always complaining about the newest cars. Everyone raaves about all the old stuff. I gather most of you did not have to ride them daily, with no Airconditioning, rattan seats, people stuffed in like sardines, unwashed people sweating. Speed 30mph is 30 mph, if it is in a R 1-9, Standard or R 62. Stop whineing it is a new year.
Why is everyone always complaining about the newest cars. Everyone raaves about all the old stuff. I gather most of you did not have to ride them daily, with no Airconditioning, rattan seats, people stuffed in like sardines, unwashed people sweating. Speed 30mph is 30 mph, if it is in a R 1-9, Standard or R 62. Stop whineing it is a new year.
I remember when the Standards and Triplexes ruled the BMT and when the R-1/9's ruled the IND. I miss the old equipment. What's wrong with rattan seats. it sure beats hard fiberglass. All the hissing and rrrrrrrrrrrrrrring that the pre-war cars made. That's rapid transit! None of the equipment had air conditioning back then. Most people who had cars back then didn't have any A/C either. Schools and homes didn't have it either (at least most homes didn't have it). What's so important about A/C anyway. In NYC, its only needed 2-3 months out of the year anyway. You can keep all the modern stuff. Give me a BMT Standard or a BMT Triplex and I'll be happy. Get rid of all the buses and put Peter Witts and PCC's back on the streets.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If it'll make you feel better, I miss those old cars as well with their moans, groans, grunts, and hisses. Noise gave the impression of higher speed. The R-10s were fast to begin with, but with their tendency to be on the loud side, they seemed to go even faster.
By my estimates, 30 mph on the R-1/9s equated to a bull and pinion gear pitch of roughly E above middle C.
If it'll make you feel better, I miss those old cars as well with their moans, groans, grunts, and hisses. Noise gave the impression of higher speed. The R-10s were fast to begin with, but with their tendency to be on the loud side, they seemed to go even faster.
By my estimates, 30 mph on the R-1/9s equated to a bull and pinion gear pitch of roughly E above middle C.
The R-1/9's and Triplexes had the lowest pitch of all the pre-war cars. The Standards and Lo-V's had a higher pitch, along with the Q's. I cannot read music. I can't get a picture of what all the music notes sound like. I just know what the cars sounded like.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Cars like the D types were capable of speeds in excess of 50 MPH despite their excessive weights. However, in general the R-9s and 10s did actually sound and feel louder than they actually were. The R-10w had a balancing speed of 40 MPH regardless of all the stories of 60 MPH down CPW or across the flats to Broad Chanel.
Cars like the D types were capable of speeds in excess of 50 MPH despite their excessive weights. However, in general the R-9s and 10s did actually sound and feel louder than they actually were. The R-10w had a balancing speed of 40 MPH regardless of all the stories of 60 MPH down CPW or across the flats to Broad Chanel.
I don't think the R-1/9's were any noisier than the Triplexes. Fact is, I think the R-1/9 and the Triplex are very similar mechanically, especially the sounds that they made. Due to the concrete roadbed of the IND, versus the ballast roadbed of the BMT, it just seemed that the R-1/9's were noisier. The R-10's were noisier than the R-1/9's. If you want to get real noisy, the R-38's and the R-40's were at deafening levels. I don't know about these days, but back in the 1970's, were you ever at a local station on the IND Queens Line waiting for a train? It was sonic boom time when an R-38 or a Slant R-40 came through on the E or F on the express tracks.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
From what I've heard, the Triplexes had the same braking system as the R-1/9s. Since I never rode on the Triplexes, I can't verify if they sounded alike as they came to a stop.
I've stood on the uptown platform at 81st St. more than once as an A train of R-10s would thunder past in a blur of teal and white. It seemed that those 10 cars would rip past in less than 10 seconds. D trains of R-1/9s weren't as loud, but you could plainly hear their bull and pinion gears howling away at about F# or G above middle C. The R-32s would streak past effortlessly when they first appeared on the D.
AFAIK, the R-38s ride much better after GOH. Believe it or not, I had never ridden on them prior to 1987.
12/30/99
The R-38's before GOH wre very noisy.
Bill Newkirk
Everything was noiser before GOH. The worst cars were the R27's on the Sixth Ave shuttle in 1986-87. They were as loud as the R10's were. Yikes.
12/30/99
Chris R,
Re: those R-27's on the (S) Sixth Avenue shuttle. The TA must have searched system wide for every R-27 with flat wheels, hearing protectors a must !!
Bill Newkirk
I saw one of those trains back then. Those R-27s were probably ticketed for the scrap line. Besides the excruciating noise level, every square inch was plastered with graffiti. Disgusting.
This thread has been going on for over a week and nobody has answered the original poster's question. I am also interested. Why do they skip numbers when numbering model numbers in the R series? For example it goes from R68 to R110 to R142, etc.
This thread has been going on for over a week and nobody has answered the original poster's question. I am also interested. Why do they skip numbers when numbering model numbers in the R series? For example it goes from R68 to R110 to R142, etc
Every R-number is a contract number for a car order. The "skips" are actually non-revenue cars that were ordered. Not all work cars are retired passenger cars. Most of these non-revenue car orders are for one piece of rolling stock, not a fleet or a set.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's not true, check out THE FIRST response in this thread: No. 79032.
Read a letter to the editor in today's Daily News by one Brendan B Read, who belongs to something called "The Committee for Better Transit". He was correcting the newspaper, who in another article stated that the LIRR stops in that neighborhood. He than had the cajones to complain about the TA's lack of rail transit to that neighborhood, including the lack of local LIRR service. He also said that the city should build a Glendale-only light rail system. He neglects to mention that it was the residents of Glendale who led the charge to close the local stops on the Montaulk line, and their attempts to kill the Archer Ave/Montaulk super-subway plan. That plan, according to him, was toodisruptive (translation: it would bring minorities into the neighborhood) and high cost (as would any transit plan these days).
If Glendale residents are unhappy about their lack of rail transit in their neighborhood, then they need not look further then their own mirrors for people to blame. If they won't allow a necessary subway line like the Archer/Montaulk super expess to be built, which would benefit most of Queens, then they cannot expect the rest of the city to give a damn about their transit needs. Keep driving to work. Payback sucks, right?
[re Glendale resident's complaints about lack of transit]
While it may be absurd for someone who once opposed transit to now bemoan its absence, that may not be the case with this letter. Surely not *all* Glendale residents were active in the anti-transit campaign. Many people in the neighborhood undoubtedly supported better transit, but their views didn't prevail. In fact, a majority of the residents might have been pro-transit. One sad thing about our system is that a small number of determined opponents can stop a public-works project even when most people favor it. My point is that the letter-writer might have been one of the people who wanted more transit. It's also entirely possible that he didn't even live in Glendale during the anti-transit campaign or was a child at the time (it's been at least 20 years).
[re: Glendale anti-transit forces]
Do any SubTalkers now live in/work around Glendale? What's it like today?
I ask because 15 years ago, I dated a guy who'd been born there, lived all his life there, and was increasingly horrified at the bigotry and closed-mindedness of his neighbors. After his next-door neighbors rented to a gang of [white] bikers rather than a nice black professional couple, his life became intolerable. He ended up selling his parents' house and leaving the neighborhood entirely.
That was when the Glendale LIRR stop still existed, BTW. [grin] Transit content ....
Of course, I s'pose I *could* just take a ride out there and see for myself. Obviously I have just one person's opinions to base this on. And it's dangerous to ask for high-line summaries of virtually anything. But I'm curious if anyone has their own impressions based on actually spending time in Glendale.
They do have the "M" train.
That's Middle Village. Close, but no cigar.
If you want to walk, that is. The M only does to Ridgewood.
If you want to walk, that is. The M only goes to
Ridgewood.
The M ends in Middle Village, they can take a bus to the M or to LIC. Too bad
I was mystified by that letter. On one hand, he derides a plan to build subway service along the old Montauk branch, then in the next breath derides the LIRR for eliminating local stops on that line. It's paradoxical. Besides, the LIRR stopped in Glendale a total of three times a day! Not much to lament.
If Glendaleites wanted train service in their neighborhood, they have had chances to get it. Apparently, they do not.
What they want is some sort of regional rail system which only serves their immediate needs and a system wouldn't be a conduit for minoritites to move into this mostly white neighborhood. If you tried to get the #7 extended to Whitestone or Douglaston, you'd get fierce resistance on the same grounds.
Those Glendale residents are a bunch of troublemakers!
I rode the Franklin Shuttle to get to The Botanic Garden. I had read last week that a huge model railroad layout was on display.
Indeed, there was a G gauge Birney running on a loop track; a smaller G gauge Santa Fe diesel with passenger cars sharing a figure 8 with a train of Penny freight; another layout featured HO freight; most interesting was a train of original and new tin-plate standard gauge Lionels that ran through a nice layout of a roaring twenties town. Not a bad representation of model railroads throughout the 20th Century (That was the theme).
The owner of the equipment, Paul Driedl, had been written up in one of the local papers (full paper color photo of his trains). The article mentioned that he ran a set of subway cars on one occasion. I would assume these were the MTH R-42s. That's interesting because I got into conversation with Mr. Driedl and it turns out he is a retired NYCT Conductor. He told me how he was assigned to the 36th Street Yard as a Switcher and even did a ride on the SBK. I'm glad I went down there. And it was a FREE holiday event at the Garden.
I believe the layout will be on display through to Jan. 2 or 3.
BTW, I've heard that the Bronx Botanic Gardens has a more impressive Model railroad layout for the holidays. Has anyone been there to give a report?
To Kevin Walsh (and Forgotten NYers): I took the liberty of walking over to the Prospect Lefferts Homestead. There I found what looks like a ticket booth. In reality it is the original Flatbush Toll Road collection booth.
For those not familiar: prior to Brooklyn joining the City of New York, Flatbush was a separte town from Brooklyn. The dividing line was either Montgomery Street or Empire (Malbone) and there was a toll collection on Flatbush Ave. when you traveled south from the Town of Brooklyn and entered Flatbush.
I snapshot image will be forwarded to Forgotten NY shortly.
Doug aka BMTman
Flatbush was an independent town until 1894 when annexed into the City of Brooklyn. The city of Brooklyn was killed by it's cross river neighbor on January 1, 1898. Let us all have a moment of silence for what was and would have been the third largest city in the nation.
The toll was probably eliminated in 1894 when Brooklyn annexed Flatbush.
Manhattan didn't kill Brooklyn. Brooklyn freely voted to become part of "Greater NYC". Many Brooklynites may have regretted voting afterwards, but they did.
The referendum was non-binding, the conquest was made by a state act and signatures by the mayors of New York, Brooklyn and Long Island City. Brooklynites voted to enter by a small margin, probably for lower property taxes and to obviate the need to spend large sums of money constructing an aqueduct system in Jamaica and Hempstead in Queens County. That's where Conduit Avenue, Force Tube Avenue, Sunrise Highway, Forest Park, Hempstead Lake and the Southern and Wantagh Parkways (SO west of W and W south of SO) come from.
Alot of people still don't believe there is a place called 'Force Tube Avenue'. It just sounds too weird ('What the heck is a force tube?').
Doug aka BMTman
A tube with force. Water can be providing the force. It's named after the aqueduct system Brooklyn built in Queens County to provide water as getting it from wells in the city itself was no longer effective.
Read an article about Brooklyn's Thirsty Hunt for Water.
>>>That's where
Conduit Avenue, Force Tube Avenue, Sunrise Highway, Forest Park, Hempstead Lake and the
Southern and Wantagh Parkways (SO west of W and W south of SO) come from. <<<
Not to mention...
Aqueduct Raceway
I thought Sunrise Highway got its name because it was constructed from west to east, toward sunup.
Conduit Boulevard in Bklyn and the leg of the Belt Pkway from Conduit Blvd to where the Laurelton is now was originally called Sunrise Highway; today only a small portion remains in Queens. N&S Conduit Avenues serve the Southern (Belt) Parkway most of their length, but for a 3-block stretch they become the acolytes of Sunrise Highway until the city line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sunrise Highway is named that, but it was built atop the aqueduct. This was because of a suggestion by the City of New York so it wouldn't have to pay as much in taxes for the water network. The water network has belonged to Nassau County since the mid-1980s.
Sunrise Highway in Queens is one way westbound, South Conduit is the eastbound roadway and becomes part of Sunrise Highway at Hook Creek Boulevard (the border), the median between them even narrows symbolically! North Conduit moves north of the LIRR just before crossing the Belt Parkway and is just a side street until it dead ends at the border. I believe it is briefly two-way.
Another thing, Aqueduct Racetrack is only named after the aqueduct, I was only talking about those things built because of the aqueduct. I think the racetrack would have happened anyway, it just wouldn't have been called Aqueduct. It might not have been built, but in that case that's like a butterfly flapping it's wings here causes a storm in China.
I always thought Sunrise Highway was called that because it was a descendant of the Sunrise Trail, an old Indian trail (part of the reason that book was called "Steel Rails to the Sunrise"). Does any part of the Sunrise Trail still exist in some form?
That's true. Brooklyn was financialy in poor shape and joining up with Manhattan -- unfortunately -- was their easiest way out.
However, it has to be pointed out that the pro-City vote won by a very slim margin. Brooklyn certainly went out fighting!
Doug aka BMTman
And, as mentioned in posts about the evil NIMBYs, there were probably many Brooklynites who wanted to be independent but didn't think their vote counted. There were probably more people who didn't care and would have voted for unity (again, easy way out).
I thought Brooklyn would have been the fourth lartest city behind New York, Chicago and Philly, (or was it L.A.)? At least that is what it said on the sign they always showed at the beginning of "Welcome Back Kotter!"
Actually, had consolidation never occured, New York would be SMALLER. Assuming Bronx had been part of NY but nothing else, NY's population would be 2.5 million, then NY would be 3. Unless the non-consolidated forces would have caused things to be different. If 1898 consolidation would have failed, then it is perhaps possible that NY would have expanded deeper into Westchester (acquiring Yonkers perhaps) and a Brooklyn, showing that it did not wish to destroy itself and be destined to forever play second fiddle to the forces of a paramecium shaped island (I got that from Paul Matus), could have went into Queens County and maybe more. OR the failure of consolidation would have forever put a hamper on expansion plans. Meanwhile, we mustn't forget that certain forces were at play that brought consolidation, the same forces that gave the Bronx (I don't know what towns were there) to New York and Flatbush, New Utrecht, Gravesend and Flatlands and going back further, New Lots (Bushwick and Williamsburg acquisitions were too far back) could have made consolidation inevitable. So it might be that the only way that Greater New York would never have happened, is that Bronx would still be part of Westchester and Kings County consist of Brooklyn and five other towns. It's a wonder how the region would have developed, would new cities have been founded? would NY and BK acquired neighbors this century anyway? Would there still be only 3 counties on Long Island? What would have happened to Staten Island? How would the streets look? Most important of all to us: How would the SUBWAY look? Would there even BE a subway?
Subway. Other cities have their subways run in different towns, Just a big Transit Authority(Regional) would have one it. By the Way The order in population is NYC LA, Chic and Houston Philly I think is closed to 10 or 11 now.
I posted the population order.
I verified it and had to make a few changes (like the Detroit population, I thought it was more).
Oops, one thing I forgot to answer. Your order of cities (NY, Chi, Phil) is WRONG. The following is a list of cities ordered by population:
CITYSTATEPOP
New YorkNew York7.4M
Los AngelesCalifornia3.6M
ChicagoIllinois2.8M
HoustonTexas1.8M
PhiladelphiaPennsylvania1.4M
San DiegoCalifornia1.2M
PhoenixArizona1.2M
San AntonioTexas1.1M
DallasTexas1M
DetroitMichigan970K
BTW, I must be really creepy but this is all from memory. I have no idea why I memorized this but I just did.
I believe Brooklyn Borough President Sabastian Leone (from the early-mid 70's) had that sign put up at the Brooklyn-bound off ramp of the Brooklyn Bridge (near Sands St.). It may have been removed about ten years ago since it is not accurate.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm not sure, I thought it was on the Belt, near the Varazanno. I also think it had Howard Goldin's name on it. I don't have cable so I can't catch a rerun of WBC. If you see it, let me know.
Mark
Excuse me, WBK! I love the John Sebastian song.
Golden came into office in Sept. 1977. Maybe it was his name on the sign. I haven't seen it in years, so I assumed it was his predecessor.
Incidentally, there had been talk of some kind of 'Welcome Back, Kotter' reunion movie a few years back. But it looked like the thing just fizzled out.
Doug aka BMTman
When I hear the opening piano chords to WBK, I can visualize Brooklyn's BMT subway lines.
Leone did install the sign, but it was on the Belt Pkway just after the off ramp from the VB.
It's gone for years; the only way to get a shot of it now is from the frame from the opening or closing of Welcome Back Kotter.
We went to the NYBG in The Bronx at the conclusion of Polo Grounds Shuttle-1. They have a collection of Aristocraft #1 gauge running on several different loops of tracks. Inside the loops are replicas of different New York mansions and a few other structures. It's an enjoyable layout. We used it as part of our Sunday before Christmas full day in the city. Blintzes for breakfast on Bedford Ave., the PGS-1 tour, the NYBG, a quick look at the Rock Center tree, and all you can eat sushi on Seventh Ave. South. The fun pass works great for days like that.
Sounds like fun!
Is Citibank running its (usually) annual Citibank Station at the Citicorp Center again this year?
--Mark
[ Brooklyn City and Flatbush Town separate ]
Doug, there was/is a marker in the Botanic Garden walkway that runs westernmost from the Flatbush/Empire Blvd. entrance showing the location of the border of Brooklyn and Flatbush.
>>>Doug, there was/is a marker in the Botanic Garden walkway that runs westernmost from the
Flatbush/Empire Blvd. entrance showing the location of the border of Brooklyn and Flatbush. <<<
Is it near the Botanic Garden entrance, and do I have to be a paying customer to see it? I'd rather wait till the blooms start to bloom in April but with these El Nino winters maybe that'll be sooner.
Paul, that's VERY interesting. I never knew that. I will have to find it and get a nice shot (if it's still there).
Thanks for the tip.
>>>>To Kevin Walsh (and Forgotten NYers): I took the liberty of walking over to the Prospect Lefferts
Homestead. There I found what looks like a ticket booth. In reality it is the original Flatbush Toll
Road collection booth. <<<
I was over there last summer looking for that tollgate and I couldn't believe that that thing was the tollgate! You're right, it looks just like a ticket booth. Would appreciate a photo. Doug, forward your actual name with the shot so you can be duly credited.
There is also a remaining tollbooth for what is now Rte 25A/Northern Blvd in Roslyn, which is beyond the purview of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
PS. Did Santy leave Of Cabbages and Kings County under the tree this year? Ought I wait for the paperback?
Kevin, Santa did not leave 'Of Cabbages and Kings County'. But he did make amends by leaving 'The Malbone Street Wreck' instead.
I should have that shot back tomorrow. I'll scan it in pronto and get it to you ASAP.
Incidentally, if you need any shots of Clove Rd., I should have a couple of them on the same roll.
Clove Road -- for those not familiar with it -- was a narrow road in Crown Heights that ran at an angle between Nostrand and New York Avenues. It went from around Eastern Parkway at the north to Clarkson Ave. at the south. It existed as a thoroughfare prior to Brooklyn becoming a borough of the City of Greater New York. Today, only a one block stretch of the road remains (between Montgomery St. and Empire Blvd.) and it is little more than a poorly maintained back alley. There are, however, some surprises: a short block with the name Malbone Street intersects with Clove Rd. halfway up the road from Empire; because of the poor road conditions, much of the original cobblestones on Clove Road are clearly exposed.]
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Incidentally, if you need any shots of Clove Rd., I should have a couple of them on the same roll. <<<
I would, thx. Do you have any shots of the nearby piece of Malbone Street?
I have been looking high and low for information on Brooklyn's Clove Road, which is hard to find especially since the Brooklyn Historical Society on Clinton St is closed for reno's. (When most NYC drivers think of Clove Road they think of the long Staten Island route).
I am aware that Clove Road is an aboriginal street and predates the street grid. I have seen old maps in which it extends down as Canarsie Road and forms the western edge of Holy Cross Cemetery. Most if not all traces of that stretch are gone now.
Hunterfly Road was another such path. Only Hunterfly Place, which is at a different angle than other streets in the area, in Bedford Stuyvesant, and a private stretch in the Weeksville Houses remain.
When are the Weeksville houses open? I was over there on a Saturday afternoon a couple years ago, and it was locked up.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, I'll get the intersection street sign of Clove & Malbone on my next trip (I ran out of film -- I gotta learn to carry an extra roll or two just for these type of things).
BTW, regarding the Historical Society: supposedly they were to open this year, but due to reduced funding the resto work is taking longer than expected. Their excellent library section has been closed to the public for nearly 2 years already!
While on the subject, last year I heard a horrendous rumor that if the BHS funding didn't improve, they'd be forced to close to the public premanently! Under such a situation, researchers -- like us -- would no longer have access to the archives directly -- the BHS staff would do the work and the independent researcher would be billed for the archivists' duties. Let's hope things don't come to that.
Doug aka BMTman
There is an old toll booth from the Vanderbuilt Motor Parkway restored and being used as a type of information booth in Garden City.
A few weeks ago I inquired about the availability of the Altoid metrocard, which I since got. Someone posted the various stations that cards were obtained at.
As luck would have it, I cannot find that post, no matter how I reconfigured my board!
I understand that there may be one or two new cards out now, one depicting B'way in the 1800's.
Can that good person ID himself again and verify if this is so?
Thanks,
Joe C
You might be looking for the Millenial Journeys 17th century card (Coming and going in New Amsterdam) The Metrocard Vending Machines at Bowling Green had the card today...it should be replacing the 13th century cards at more MVMs
I dont think so!! you all know not just mr. reason THAT THE
R 32s ( sadly ) ARE DOOMED !!!!
they will be replaced by new NON RAILFAN WINDOW type cars!!!
................. RIGHT ???????? !!!!!!!!!!.....................
Dude, you need to take your ridylin, ok. As for your question about the R32's, they will probably remain in service for another decade. They will outlive the R38, R40 and R42. They might even be around to see their 50th birthday (2014).
That is Ritalin, not ridylin. In the next five years, don't be surprised to see the MTA get rid of the R32s. When the existing IRT cars have been scrapped, the TA will claim to the government no doubt that to improve service and save money, new cars will be required with full width cabs and AC technology. It doesn't matter that because the R32s are entirely stainless or have less metal fatigue, it matters that to get the funding, you must spend the funding. If capital improvement will buy you a brand new car, wouldn't you junk the old one, even if it is sooner than expected. Face it, railfan windows will be common on work trains by 2005 and there is nothing to stop the TA to use the monies the US government will give them to buy new cars. The TA received funding from UMTA to rebuild the GE R30 cars and then got rid of them using as an excuse the cutback in service. If they get rid of the 60 footers, they may buy some extra cars but this only would bring them to pre 1991 levels. I may be wrong with numbers so maybe some here can elaborate further.
The R32 cars are already scheduled for mini overhaul and are guaranteed to be with us longer than 5 years. The R38 40 and 42 will be retired first.
wonderful !! that means the r32s will be there march 2000 on
the # 4 !!! right ??
12/29/99
Mr.Willie,
You mean #4 as in (N) Sea Beach.....Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill newkirk
wait a minute !!! the NUMBER # 4 runs to SEA BEACH ???
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?
What a maroon!
No, the 4 will NEVER run R-32s, no matter how much you beg. No matter how much political clout you develop.
In the era of the BMT, what is now the N was the #4 train, this has nothing to do with the modern #4 train.
I'll give you a few days to let that sink into your head.
WAIT A MINUTE !!! back in 1956 7 8 & 9
in my childhood years in NYC i knew the BMT - IND cars
COULD NOT RUN ON ANY IRT LINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
i knew that back then !!!! how about that .... reason??
IND/BMT cars will not fit in the tunnels along the original Contract One IRT portion. This includes the lower Lexington Ave. (4-5-6) line south of Grand Central; the 42nd St. shuttle (S); and the 7th Ave. line (1-2-3) north of Times Square. It is believed this was done on purpose because August Belmont, who financed construction of the original line, did not want a railroad company taking over the line, which presumably would then operate standard rail cars.
Perhaps because they didn't need to interoperate with 10 foot cars, and also wanted to be compatible with the els. Why were el cars 8" 10" wide anyway? It's not like it's a nice even number like 100".
It is believed this was done on purpose because August Belmont, who financed construction of the original line, did not want a railroad company taking over the line, which presumably would then operate standard rail cars.
I don't buy that theory. After all, the Manhattan Els and the BRT Els were all the same 9' wide. It wasn't until the BRT subway, with its 10' wide Standards, that any rapid transit lines were 10' wide.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It's close to the truth. The CITY wouldn't allow 10 foot tunnels because the CITY didn't want rail freight being handled that way. It was only when it became obvious that it was a success from a passenger standpoint (and that therefore no freight would be hauled because of interference with the passenger traffic) that they decided 10 foot cars were OK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the old BMT number code, #4 was assigned to the Sea Beach, which became today's N route when letter markings were extended to the BMT. Officially, all BMT number markings were dropped in 1967 when the Chrystie St. connection opened, but by 1965, all Southern Division trains had letter markings.
The IRT number code is totally separate and has nothing to do with the old BMT code.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Bzzzzzzztttt!! Sorry, your answer is incorrect!
The R-32s are scheduled for some kind of mini-overhaul in the next capital plan and are expected to outlive the R-38, R-40 and R-42 series cars. (The 10 R-32 GE cars are not being kept).
(Johnny O, tell us the consolation prize what LA has won ...)
--Mark
"LA has won 2 unlimited MetroCards and a lifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni, that San franscisco treat. Thanks for playing, LA, you've been a super contestant."
the contestant has won his choice of any of ten luxury R32GE's complete with ***RAILFAN WINDOW*** :-)
And we'll throw in a couple hundred exclaimation points just for the hell of it: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or some type in annoying ALL CAPS MODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;-)
...and post incoherent messages....
Does anyone know the fleet numbers of the 10 GE R32s that will not be kept?
Does anyone know the fleet numbers of the 10 GE R32s that will not be kept?
#3594-3595, #3880-3881, #3892-3893, #3936-3937.
#3934 and 3935 have already been retired and are used for parts.
Wayne
i thought r 32 s were REDBIRDS yes or no!! irt redbirds??
Certainly not!!!
No. The R-32s are built of stainless steel, with fluted sides. They originally had blue doors, which I loved. They are B division cars.
The Redbirds operate on the IRT and have carbon steel skin.
The Redbirds operate on the IRT and have carbon steel skin.
And are R-26, R-28, R-29, R-33 and R-36.
--Mark
In the late 60's as a teenager I remember a lotta hoopla about the first new cars to start replacing the R1-9's on the E & F trains. This was before the Slant 40's. I rode on them on their first week and not realizing how much I would come to miss the old stuff I really liked 'em then. Were they the R32's?
In the late 60's as a teenager I remember a lotta hoopla about the first new cars to start replacing the R1-9's on the E & F trains. This was before the Slant 40's. I rode on them on their first week and not realizing how much I would come to miss the old stuff I really liked 'em then. Were they the R32's?
No. They were the R-38's. In 1967, prior to Chrystie St., the F was solid R-38's. Once Chrystie St. opened, then you saw a lot of R-1/9's on the F again. When the R-38's came out, they were exclusively on the F. Where those R-1/9's that were displaced from the F went, I don't know. They didn't start going to the Eastern Division until after Chrystie St. opened. All the other IND lines, except the A used R-1/9's. Once chrystie St. opened, the B-Division became a hodge-podge of all the different cars all over the place. The Q was exclusively R-32. The QB and QT were exclusively R-27/30. After Chrystie St. opened, you could find anything on the D - R-27/30, R-32, R-1/9, R-38, R-40, R-40M, R-42. I never saw an R-10 on the D, and I don't recall seeing any R-16's on the D. On the F, you would see R-1/9, R-38, R-40 and R-40M. In 1969-1970 came the mixed trains with a hodge-podge collection of up to 4 different kinds of cars on 1 train.
. I never saw an R-10 on the D
I did in the early 80s I believe.
--Mark
Yeah, I see to remember some R 10's running on the D back then also. If anyone has back issues of ERA New York Division Bulletin, I'm sure that it would have been noted.
The only time I saw an R-10 on the 'D' was summer 1978. It did handle the 6th Avenue deepbore express very loud and well.
For the summers of '78 and '79 I commuted from Flushing to downtown Brooklyn, and would always be sure to get a 'B' or 'D' express between 42nd Street and West 4th Street. The variations were:
-'B': R-27,32,38,42
-'D': R-27,32,42,44
When I returned to the city from college upstate summer 1980, I thought I was seeing things! One weekday afternoon, I got an R-10 on the 'E' and an R-46 on the 'C'(!!!), a complete reversal of what we had become accustomed to. Of course, that's when the R-46s were still undergoing an overhaul, so they were probably best suited to the 'C', which was rush hours only its enitre length at the time. Caught a 46 on the 'D' as well; back then it was much more distinguishable from the R-44, which still had its' feeble low-pitched door chime, which can still be heard on the SIR.
The 'E','F' and 'G' were a mix of R-10s and 32s, and I distinctly remember seeing an R-38 on the 'E' for the first time since the early 70s. In 1980-81, before the 38 became a staple on the 'A', it could be found mostly on the 'AA' and 'B', but sometimes on the 'M' and 'N' as well!
To paraphrase Forrest Gump, "you never knew what you were gonna get."
. I never saw an R-10 on the D
I did in the early 80s I believe.
--Mark
By then, I had already left the City.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
12/30/99
The R-10's that ran on the (D) also ran on the (E),(F) and (L).
This was due to that R-46 cracked truck fiasco that sent cars all over the place. R-46's even ran on the (A). The R-10's on the (E) were signed up "HUDSON TERMINAL" much to everybody's amazement.
Bill Newkirk
The original roller curtains on the R-10s did have Hudson Terminal signs, as did the R-1/9s. Some of the R-1/9s also had Chambers St. signs. The R-32s had both. At least I remember seeing AA trains of R-32s with either Chambers St. or Hudson Term'l on their side route signs.
I believe that those R-10s which were fixed up in 1985 and received new roller curtains did have World Trade Center signs then.
Yes they did, but those black and white signs were only equipped for possible terminals on the C or Rockaway shuttle lines only.
12/30/99
I forgot to add that when the R-10's were running on the (L), since they didn't have Eastern division signs, the end route signs were blank and the end destination signs read "Rockaway Park" instead of "Rockaway Parkway". Oh well, close enough!
Bill Newkirk
And when the train was headed for Manhattan, weren't both bulkhead signs blank? Talk about deja vu all over again....
The 1985-86 rebuilds received the new rollsigns that used the current color code and single-letter setup (C,Q,H etc.). It was at that time that the TA was busy upgrading A nd B di
Happy New Year to all at Subtalk!
Now a question: I was recently in the Woodside area of Queens and spied a building at the NW corner of Queens Blvd and 6oth St. It is a low-level building containing several small stores, but the entire facade looks identical to the old BMT station entrance facades seen on the Sea Beach (Bay Pky, for example) and Brighton (Church ave) lines, also the facade at the Stillwell Ave. station.... That yellow-off-yellow appearance. Wads this a popular form of facade-construction way back when? I have never seen anything like it other than on the BMT. Was there a BMT plan to build a subway along Queens Blvd?
Carl M.
Funny you should mention that. If you go to the Douglaston LIRR station and go on the dead end street that leads to the parking lot on the Port Wash bound side (235 St??) there is an old building on the E/S that looks just like one of those BMT Stations. I'm not sure what it is now but the inscription on it says it was a bank.
I personally rode on a D train of R-10s once in 1979 or 1980. It certainly seemed a bit strange to see them there, but it made no difference along CPW, as they exhibited their brute speed capabilities as well as ever. Since the original R-10 roller curtains had no Brighton Beach signs, the destination curtain on the southbound end of the train was blank.
As for the R-38s, they were assigned to Jamaica Yard and the F out of necessity. The R-1/9s from that yard were dropping like flies in August of 1966, so much so that it looked more like a triage out there, and 32 R-16s had to be borrowed from the BMT to fill in on the GG. As has been previously reported, a group of BMT standards were literally pulled off the scrap line and sent back to revenue service. The situation eased as more and more R-38s were delivered, and by early 1967 the R-16s were back on the BMT.
AFAIK, many of the R-1/9s which failed in '66 were retired. I do remember seeing the R-38s on the E during rush hours. The blue band at the belt rail really stood out.
Those smorgasbord trains of the late 60s and early 70s, as I like to call them, are a mystery. Was all that mixing really necessary, or did the TA just want to see how different cars behaved in the same consist? Or was there an attitude of, well, we're already doing that on the IRT, so why not on B division? I didn't like it at all. Some combinations clashed severely from an aesthetic standpoint, especially if it involved a pair of slant R-40s.
All of the R-9s wound up on the Eastern Division along with the higher number R-7s. This began in 1968 when the slant R-40s began arriving.
There are photos of R-16s on the E and F lines, incidentally.
And remember when all those R-16s came to the rescue of the Jamaica IND because of the high failure rate of the R-1s, it was those workhorse ABs that came off the scrap track on the Sea Beach Line that made it possible. Complete with the yellow "S" on their fronts, they went back into service on the Eastern Division.
Chalk one more up for those great BMT design cars, now if only the D-types could have been allowed to serve out another 10 years which they were fully capable of!
Mike H
Supposedly, those BMT standards which cheated death had the S designation painted over before they went back to revenue service. I missed all that exciting drama back then, as the situation on the IND was more or less back to normal when we arrived on the scene in April of 1967.
I fully agree with you: the Triplexes could easily have lasted another 10 years. Maybe the TA received kickbacks from the scrapyards, who knows? I know they were a standardization mode, but to me it just doesn't make sense to scrap equipment when it's still in tiptop shape.
i was told once he r 1 thru r 9 were INDESTRUCTABLE!!!
and all of the NEW CARS !!!!! break down !!!!
thyis was in 1976 by TA maint. workers who told me this !!
That was a long time ago. The "new cars" in 1976 were the R44's and R46's and those cars' troubles are well known, specifically their truck problems. The same statement doesn't hold true now, with the R62 fleet consistantly pulling the highest MDBF numbers...
The R68 did have a lot of teething problems early on, IIRC.
R-1 through R-9 cars were far from indestructible in their later days, especially the R-1 and R-4, which literally fell apart around 1966 due to deferred maintenance. I believe what you may be referring to is the durability of their bodies and their crashworthiness, well even THAT is somewhat suspect - witness what happened to R-6-3 #986 in 1970, that being a collision with an R-10 and the full collapse of his nose and crown. The R-10 incurred less damage in that incident. While far from being tin cans, the R-1/4/6/7/9 were not as rugged as, say, the BMT Standards (AB types) or the D-Type Triplexes, or other carbon steel cars (today's IRT Redbirds) for that matter.
Wayne
The R-1/9s were well-designed, well-built cars. They were the first true subway cars in New York in the sense that they were designed to move the masses with maximum efficiency. The BMT standards were a blend of subway car and interurban coach.
By the late 60s, with new equipment on order and on the way, the R-1/9s became a neglected stepchild of sorts. They weren't being cared for at all, and were allowed to fall apart. It was sad to see such a proud fleet reduced to second-class citizen status.
I did look up one detail in Gene Sansone's book: all R-4s from 467 and up received headlights, as did all R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Standards were a 1914 design. Back in 1914, most of Brooklyn was either suburb or rural, except for Downtown and the area immediately surrounding it. The Standards were manufactured between 1914 and 1924. By 1925, the BMT came out with something more innovative and more resembling an urban subway car - the articulated D-Type, or Triplex. Thr R-1/9 incidently copied alot from the D-Type, except for the articulation and the fact that they had 4 doors per 60' car than the Standards or Triplexes which had 3 doors per 67' of subway car. I don't look at the D-Type as an interurban, like the Standards were. They were meant to hold more people, not having a seat that seated 3 across. Then came the Multi-Section car, another urban rapid transit car. So I wouldn't exactly say that the R-1/9's were the first true subway cars. The D-Type was around before the R-1/9. Lets not forget the IRT. Three doors per 51' of car is plenty of door space. The Hi-V's were the first to have this arrangement, and date back to 1904. I don't remember when they put the center doors into the Hi-V's, but the Lo-V's, which had the center door all along date back to 1914, just like the Standards. So clearly, it wasn't the R-1/9's that were the first true subway cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No car is indestructable and all cars have their particular quirks. The R-44/R-46 had more than their share of troubles because they incorporated so much 'new' technology. One thing I would caution you about is believing the maintenance workers about any new car class. Mechanics, like the public in general, naturally resist change.
The R-16s, themselves a maintenance headache, came to the rescue of not only the R1/9s. 100 of them were taken out of mothballs to compensate for the R-46 Rockwell Truck fiasco in the late 1970s. It cost the TA $200,000 to do that.
--Mark
Were the R-16s troublesome right from the start, or did they start acting up later on, when deferred maintenance was the rule? I've heard the 6400-series cars were a bigger pain than the 6300s.
Were the R-16s troublesome right from the start, or did they start acting up later on, when deferred maintenance was the rule? I've heard the 6400-series cars were a bigger pain than the 6300s.
I can't document it, but I believe they were always lemons. The poorly designed door engines led to their replacement about 1970 or 1971.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those smorgasbord trains of the late 60s and early 70s, as I like to call them, are a mystery. Was all that mixing really necessary, or did the TA just want to see how different cars behaved in the same consist? Or was there an attitude of, well, we're already doing that on the IRT, so why not on B division? I didn't like it at all. Some combinations clashed severely from an aesthetic standpoint, especially if it involved a pair of slant R-40s.
I could be wrong, but I think it was just random. They paid no attention to what they were hooking up to compose a train, and over time just went hog wild.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Or maybe they relished the fact that for the most part, they now had a fleet in which all SMEE cars could m. u. with each other. It wouldn't have been so bad if all SMEE B Division cars looked alike, as was the case on the IRT. The only mixed consists I ever saw were D trains of R-32s and R-42s coupled together, and even that was too much for me to stomach. I think that if I had seen any R-10s coupled to anything else, I would have had a stroke on the spot. I understand that while this was done occasionally, it wasn't common.
Why would that upset you? On the IRT the R12's were regularly coupled with newer cars, and they were basically 6 door R10's. They just were never used as conductor's cars as they had the old type of door operation where the conductor had to climb between cars.
Or maybe they relished the fact that for the most part, they now had a fleet in which all SMEE cars could m. u. with each other. It wouldn't have been so bad if all SMEE B Division cars looked alike, as was the case on the IRT. The only mixed consists I ever saw were D trains of R-32s and R-42s coupled together, and even that was too much for me to stomach. I think that if I had seen any R-10s coupled to anything else, I would have had a stroke on the spot. I understand that while this was done occasionally, it wasn't common.
I've been on trains back in 1969-1970 on the D that consisted of R-27, R-32 and R-42 all on one train. They were pretty common. Sometimes, an R-11 or an R-16 was thrown in there. A rare one that I was on was R-27, R-32, R-38, Slant R-40 and R-40M (5 different types of equipment making up a 10-car train). The R-40's didn't even have the proper curtains for the D. Many times, the R-27 and R-16 ran together, as did the Slants and the Modified R-40's. After all, 1969 and 1970 were the psychadellic years. Anything went! To tell you the truth, I was glad when they went back to solid trains again.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
R-42s were found in mixed consists because it was the first totally air conditioned fleet and EVERYONE wanted them on their own BMT or IND line. It was "politically correct" to divvy up the R-42s so every line would get some, thereby giving the political pundits the chance to proclaim that they were taking care of their constituents.
--Mark
Ah, but the real question is: were the cars arranged in chronological sequence? That would have been one for the record books. At least the R-16s and R-27/30s blended in very well together; from a distance, it was hard to tell them apart.
One other thought crossed my mind. You know how cars are coupled randomly for yard moves? I wonder if yard personnel just left them coupled together as they were during a yard move instead of rounding them up into nice, solid trains.
I just like solid trains, plain and simple. If I were to see, say, R-10s thrown into a consist of other cars today, I'd probably shrug it off. Back in 1969-70, I was all of 13 and looked things differently.
It still strikes me as being odd that on the one hand, the R-12s and R-14s never ran in solid trains after they were bumped off the Flushing line, except for those which ran on the 3rd Ave. el. The R-10s, OTOH, stayed by themselves for the most part. One explanation I've heard is that since most IRT lines are elevated for good stretches, conductors would be subjected to the elements if they had to climb up between cars to work the doors, while most of the IND is underground. I had mistakenly come to the conclusion that the R-10s were not compatible with any other cars because of their pneumatic doors (thanks to Steve for setting me straight on that), while the R-12s and R-14s must have had their door controls modified in order to m. u. with other cars (WRONG!!)
The cars in he early 60's you started to ride on the E & F lines were the new R-38's.From what I remember and rode, most of the R-38's were on the F line.
The cars in he early 60's you started to ride on the E & F lines were the new R-38's.From what I remember and rode, most of the R-38's were on the F line.
In 1967 prior to the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, all R-38's ran exclusively on the F. To my knowledge, there weren't any R-1/9's running on the F at that time. OTOH, the E was solid R-1/9's.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I can remember taking an F train of R-1/9s from, IIRC, Rockefeller Center to Lexington Ave. on August 9, 1967. We were trying to get to the Lexington Ave. line so we could go to the Bronx Zoo. This was long before the free transfer was there, and it threw us for a loop. I think we wound up backtracking to Grand Central on a 6, where we caught a Bronx-bound 5.
There was also an issue concerning delivery of the R-38s, according to Larry Redbird R-33. They were being delivered at a slower rate than expected due to a strike at St Louis Car Co. 20 cars were on TA property when the R-1/9 crisis hit, and these were pressed into service, with one 10-car train going to the E and one to the F.
As I said earlier, the only time I ever saw the R-38s on the E was during rush hours, and since I rarely went to the city on weekdays back then, it didn't amount to too many sightings. On Saturdays, all I ever saw on the E were R-1/9s until the slant R-40s arrived.
Although the R38s were almost completely dedicated to the F - a very small number made there way into E train service during the morning and evening rush hour. This was at a time when E trains ran through from 179 to either Euclid or Rockaway Park.
OTOH - the vast majority of E trains back then were R1/9.
Maybe you're referring to the R38, which was rushed into service in 1966 because the R1-9 cars were all falling apart at the seams.
Mr Willie - FOR YOUR INFORMATION:
The IRT Redbirds are R33 cars NOT R32. You're off by one digit.
The other Redbird cars are R26, R28, R29, R36.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wAYNE <:o>
that ONE DIGITgets you every time!! i keep thinkingabout the IRT R 26
the r 32 and r 38 seem to photograph the same !!!!
thats what threw me off !!!!!!!
Oh yee of little knowledge. The R-32 Phase I's will definitely go through another 12 year SMS. and should survive another 10-15 years. The future of the Phase II R-32s is not as clear right now but it will likely follow the Phase Is.
WOW this could mean the 32's outlive the 68's???
Mr Ahlah, Video et all LA person would be pleased at that. They might even come out of OH with non scratched RAILFAN window, imagine that....
And, God willing, LEGIBLE bulkhead signs. Bring back the front end destination signs!
Oh, and perhaps a little more speed?
And, God willing, LEGIBLE bulkhead signs. Bring back the front end destination signs!
Oh, and perhaps a little more speed?
Front route and destination signs. Get rid of that crap that noone can read. Might as well have announcements made on the platform as to what train is entering the station. You can't read the front of an R-32. That's what they call technological advancement. The Standards from 1914 were more advanced than that. At least you could read the marker lights.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And you STILL can't tell what they say. Don't believe it - go take a look at #3753 or #3932 or #3742 or #3514 or any of the other myriad R32s that have so-called "signs" up front, you can't read em, you simply can't read 'em.
Wayne
I have heard from a fellow railfan that the R-32's will be brought back to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle because they work much better in the colder, outdoor weather of the line than does the R-68s.
Any truth to this?
Doug aka BMTman
No way,Doug did you forget that the Shuttle is OPTO??
Now cross cab on a R32 would be a shame.
Here's a crazy idea: when the R-32's get there 2000 makeover, is it possible to have them (or a set or two) made into full-width cab cars? Obviously there would be a lose of passenger space at the ends, but I assume this is possible if indeed the NYCT wanted to use R-32s in OPTO routes.
Thought provoking, huh?
Doug aka BMTman
Wouldn't the door pocket on the current non-cab side prevent it? I don't think a window would be possible, so I don't see how they could full-cab it.
subfan
Technically, they wouldn't have to do a full-width windows, since they would only have to make a small window over the current passenger seat (left-most corner by the door). This could be done by the overhaul shops at Coney.
If they knew the shuttle was going to be OPTO when they rebuilt it and its only a 4 station line they should have put all 4 platforms on the motorman's side of the train!!
If they knew the shuttle was going to be OPTO when they rebuilt it and its only a 4 station line they should have put all 4 platforms on the motorman's side of the train!!
That's the TA for you! always leaping before they look.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Umm how can that help when they saved money by making all but one stop single platform???
TA had full width cabs paid for so it was easy to single track/single platform the line. Single Track/Single platform can't have the platform on the correct side in each direction.
Forget about my last post. Its late and I'm tired. I forgot that when the train goes the other way the cab's on the other side!!!
Forget about my last post. Its late and I'm tired. I forgot that when the train goes the other way the cab's on the other side!!!
No, it all depends on the way the line is rebuilt. If you have separate NB and SB platforms, even where its single-tracked, side platforms will always be on the cab's side. When the T/O reverses ends, the platforms on the other side will be beside the cab. It works out.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How will they fit them onto those short platforms? Run 4 car trains and only use 2 of them like they did pre-rebuilding?
They just might bring out the museum set of BMT standards. Only a monumental blizzard could slow them down.
They just might bring out the museum set of BMT standards. Only a monumental blizzard could slow them down.
They are in Coney Island Shop undergoing some serious restoration. They have been there for several years now. The TA has nothing to do with the restoration. It is all being done by railfan volunteers.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeah, they need alot of TLC. They belong to Mike Hanna & Co.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, they need alot of TLC. They belong to Mike Hanna & Co.
Doug aka BMTman
When those cars are completed, they will be 100% restored back to what they were when they were brand new. They won't be BMT brown anymore. I was told by someone who was working on them for a while that the original color of the Standards was something akin to the color of a UPS truck, and that's the color that 2390, 2391 and 2392 will be when they're done. I heard that much of the rusted out steel, particularly in the roof, has to be replaced. I guess that's what is such a painstaking job. That and scraping off all the old paint down to the bare steel before they could even get started. I heard that this project was started about 5 years ago, and its still far from complete. That dedicated bunch needs to be commended for what they are doing. Its not easy to commit to something that takes many years to do and stick with it through completion. Also, they are not being paid for their work. They are strictly volunteers.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those Standards have very bad rust at the door frames where the floor meets the body sides. Kind of reminds me of the predictable rust patterns in the rear quarter panels of the old Dodge Dart and Plymouth Valiants.
BTW, I was supposed to lend a hand to Hanna, but sometimes life gets you bogged down with other things that have priority. But, once the weather gets warm again I might get down to CI Yards and do my part to preserve some NYC rail history.
Doug aka BMTman
Those Standards have very bad rust at the door frames where the floor meets the body sides. Kind of reminds me of the predictable rust patterns in the rear quarter panels of the old Dodge Dart and Plymouth Valiants.
BTW, I was supposed to lend a hand to Hanna, but sometimes life gets you bogged down with other things that have priority. But, once the weather gets warm again I might get down to CI Yards and do my part to preserve some NYC rail history.
Doug aka BMTman
It would be fitting for the "BMT Man" to help with the restoration of the BMT Standards. You don't have to apologize for getting bogged down with other stuff. Believe me, I know what getting bogged down and side-tracked (no pun intended) is all about. I would love to see what those cars are going to look like once they are completed. I never saw the Standards with varnished wooden window frames and sills. All that paint on the wooden window frames, I'm sure took away from the appearance of the cars. Hey, let me ask you something. I heard that the brass conductor's control panel on the center door post was stolen off one of the cars. Was this replaced? If so, how?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
QUESTION ??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
are the R 32 s IRT cars ?????? ( OR ) BMT-IND cars ???????!!!
all REDBIRDS are IRT cars right ??????????? !!!!!!!!!!
The R-32's are IND-BMT cars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK?????????????????????????????
You know, at least when you post incoherent drivel as a response, post it to the right message.
It sounds as if they need to be re-restored. How much work did they have done before they were used on the Nostalgia Train? Was it mostly cosmetic?
It sounds as if they need to be re-restored. How much work did they have done before they were used on the Nostalgia Train? Was it mostly cosmetic?
I guess so. When the museum Standards ran in the 1970's, they looked fine to me. I guess all they did was polish up the brass, give them a new coat of paint (inside and out), put in new rattan seats and we all thought we had a restored museum train. It was later discovered that the cars had extensive rust damage and the electrical system was shot. That's another thing that's being done. The electrical wiring is being replaced. It was literally falling apart. It makes one wonder about the Lo-V, which is about the same age.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Low-V's I rode in 1994 ran fine. I remember a news report at the time that they were checked out mechanically before being allowed into passenger service.
I wish some rich railfan would buy up all those decaying old subway cars piled up at the extreme end of the CI yard and have them fixed up to running condition. To see them sit there, almost forgotten, as I pass them on the F train is a sad sight.
The Low-V's I rode in 1994 ran fine. I remember a news report at the time that they were checked out mechanically before being allowed into passenger service.
Its good to know that the Lo-V has a clean bill of health.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Unfortunately, that's not the case this year. Since 1996, 4 Lo-V Motors (5290, 5292, 5443, 5483) and have been assigned to various excursions on the IRT by a private group and one on the IND in conjunction with the Transit Museum. Lo-Vs to Rockaway Park? It's unusual, but it happened. There was a gap between the cars and the platform, but this was quickly resolved by a piece of portable plywood that closed the platform gap. This year, the cars are out of action due to some mechanical problems. One of the other posters here could probably fill us in on the status of the Lo-Vs.
-Stef
Unfortunately, that's not the case this year. Since 1996, 4 Lo-V Motors (5290, 5292, 5443, 5483) and have been assigned to various excursions on the IRT by a private group and one on the IND in conjunction with the Transit Museum. Lo-Vs to Rockaway Park? It's unusual, but it happened. There was a gap between the cars and the platform, but this was quickly resolved by a piece of portable plywood that closed the platform gap. This year, the cars are out of action due to some mechanical problems. One of the other posters here could probably fill us in on the status of the Lo-Vs.
-Stef
I'm sorry to hear that. BTW, running the Lo-V's on the B-Division for a fan trip is not as bizarre as you might think. I was on a 1975 fan trip with the Lo-V when we took it on the Brighton Line. If I remember correctly, we all just watched our step and nobody worried about the gap.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
12/31/99
Well Mr. BMT Lines, I was on the E.R.A. fantrip in the late 70's and it rained all day! Maybe the spirit of William Gove didn't like the idea of that competing subway lines equipment on his!
Bill Newkirk
Tomorrow for my unlucky New Years Duty (seniority in PD goes by rank so I became a rookie when I got promoted) I have to go in the afternoon from the Gates Av station on the "J/Z" to the 50's on 8th Av and return sometime after the festivities are over. Which of the following routes would you Eastern Division experts recommend. (Its in the order that I think is best down to worst)"J" from Gates to Bway Junction
"L" to 8th Av
8th Av IND uptown."J" from Gates to Bway Junction
"A" to destination "J" from Gates to Essex
"F" to W4th
8th Av train to destination."J" from Gates to Canal
BMT Bway line to the 50's and walk to 8th"J" from Gates to Bway Junction
LIRR to Jamaica then change for Penn
8th Av IND to destinationAny others??
By the way, I just learned the html code for the raised th as in 8th Av. Isn't it neat?
I'd go back a stop or two (the J/Z headways will be short in the afternoon) and take the A train. The evening? If you are in uniform, take the route that would otherwise have the highest crime rate!
Your best bet might be to take the J to ENY and transfer the A there. At least there will be some measure of express service for getting you into Manhattan....
-Stef
The bus.
12/31/99
Unlike the "Standards", the Low-V's received a thorough overhaul for the 1979 Diamond Jubilee. Whether or not they were rewired, I'm not sure.
A "rich" railfan putting his or her money towards restoration of these museum pieces seems like a nice idea, but the problem comes after the restoration. Where do you store them? They are not like the regular fleet that sees daily service except for maintenance and repairs. They only run occasionlly. They can't sit idle too long, they have to be run to limber them up a bit. And where do you store them when not being used? The salt air of Coney island yard ain't helping their steel bodies any. Perhaps that filthy rich railfan can persuade a friend to pitch in a few thousand dollars to build a "Quonset hut" to store the cars indoors away from the elements and vandals.
NOW! Are there any rich railfans out there?
Bill Newkirk
Perhaps that filthy rich railfan can persuade a friend to pitch in a few thousand dollars to build a "Quonset hut" to store the cars indoors away from the elements and vandals.
No need. The lower level of 9th Ave/39th St will do just fine, thank you.
As for the rich railfan, well, that's another story :)
--Mark
12/31/99
Mark Feinman,
Lower level 9th Avenue !! Is this structure water tight, you know water seeping through cracked concrete pouring over those restored steel car bodies ??
Maybe a Quonset hut isn't all that expensive. Maybe Donald Trump can wing it..........AH !!! THERE'S THE RICH RAILFAN !!
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!
Well, I didn't win the millenium millions! Maybe some other railfan did!
It's a shame that the Millennium Millions are over. I LOVED that jingle.
Money money money... It's not the MONEY part of it, but the fact that it was cool and catchy.
Anybody have it on tape?
I am out a couple of grand for the move to TMNY and I still have as many volunteers now as I started off with. But at least I don't have salt air to contend with. The R4 is in excellent condition so we can proceed with painting and storage of spare parts as early as this summer once 6398 is complete.
We are all "Rich", Rich in the ability to work at rail equipment preservation ourselves. Get dirty, don't be afraid the subway crud washes off and you'll be proud of the result. as for the rich, I hear where Bill Gates has donated BILLIONS of dollars for minority education and third world hunger. These causes are far more important than ours so, while you're at it, send some of your dollars to your favorite human service charity. your dollars,Warren Buffet's dollars and Bill Gates's dollars will team up to make this world a better place. WETHER IT'S SUBWAYS OR SUFFERING, DON'T WAIT FOR THE OTHER GUY JUMP IN AND HELP.
Excuse me, If it is such a sad sight for you, Come down and volunteer. The cars are owned by a group of railfans. It's called Railway Preservation Corp. The cars don't fix themselves. You know why the AB's are taking so long to be done?????? 10 people vs 3 very deteriorated subway cars. One thing at a time pal. I've been with the project for two years and take it personally when people say " Why don't.....run?" or "The lo-v looks weathered, why don't you paint it?" Psst, Wanna know why everything can't get done at once??? With limited manpower, shop space & hours (5 a week!) we can only do so much at one time. If we work on the AB, R-9, LO-v & D-type at once that leaves 2 to 3 people per project. Nothing would get done.
That three-car set of BMT standards, 2390-91-92, was not rebuilt in 1959-60, IIRC, so the wiring must still be original.
That three-car set of BMT standards, 2390-91-92, was not rebuilt in 1959-60, IIRC, so the wiring must still be original.
That is correct. They are unrebuilts. They have no sealed beam headlights, the original seating configuration at the ends and the drop-down seat by the doors. I assume that they just managed to save them from scrap in 1964 or 1965. The rebuilts were in service on the Eastern Division, but the unrebuilts from the Southern Division were being replaced by the R-32's and were being scrapped wholesale. I'm glad they were able to save the 3 cars in numbered sequence, hence 2390, 2391 and 2392. BTW, the cars have the small route and destination signs.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I get the impression that the motorized BMT standards were coupled into 3-car B units using sequential car numbers. I never paid attention to car numbers when I rode on them, so this is pure speculation.
Any idea when 2390-91-92 were retired from revenue service? Did they end their careers on the Eastern Division?
Any idea when 2390-91-92 were retired from revenue service? Did they end their careers on the Eastern Division?
The A/B museum train 2390, 2391 and 2392 are unrebuilts. They were retired from service in either 1964 or 1965. I have seen pics of it in 1965 on a fan trip, already in museum status.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
12/31/99
The current BMT Standard "Museum" cars were in the worst shape when they were chosen in 1965 for museum status. Unfortunatly, they were the only "unrebuilt" B-types in existence at that time so a better unrebuilt set could be chosen.
Bill Newkirk
well i owned a corvair and washed it to prevent it from
rusting !! LIKE THEY WASH SUBWAY CARS ????? !!!!
There's a lot of difference between an auto in California and a subway car in NYC. Plus, electric current does funny things to metal, and street railway and subway equipment grounded EVERYTHING through the steel body, and then to the trucks (and the rails). Toss in salt and other de-icing chemicals, add an electrical current, presto!. RUST!!!
Don't paint it for several years, store it in outside yards, and even more chance for rusting.
BTW, bring a vehicle built for Southern California and move it East (like Baltimore or New York). Watch it slowly start to rust away SERIOUSLY! I saw a friend's Chevy pickup, bought in Los Angeles, develop serious and damaging rust in just 5 years when he moved to Baltimore.
I had a 1964 Corvair Monza which I paid the princely sum of $25 for back in 1974. We called it "The Motorboat from Mars" - it had absolutely NO exhaust system (it fell off crossing the LIRR grade crossing at New Hyde Park Road - that'll keep this post sort of on topic), it leaked oil like a sieve and it was incapable of a speed greater than perhaps 40MPH. It could be heard at a distance of more than a half a mile if conditions were right. We drove it to July's Junk Yard in Garden City Park in March of 1975 - it refused to die, but it also refused to pass inspection - and some wag there promptly bought it from me for $50; he said he was going to restore it! LOL!
Wayne
Did it have the push button automatic transmission? I always loved the Corvair and always wanted one. When I got my license in '71 I went to a used car lot with my dad and it had 2 corvairs. The key the salesman had operated both!! My father wouldn't let me buy it, maybe he read Ralph Nader's book and I ended up buying a '67 Olds Cutlass. It is very rare to see a corvair now but every once in a while I do see one and I get as excited as if I saw an R1-9!!!
If anyone has been to the DMV office in the old Mays building out in Jamaica, there is a wonderful old picture of the intersection of Jamaica Avenue and 168th St. in the 2nd. floor lobby. It's dated 1921. You can clearly see the terminal of the fairly new BMT el train there, with what looks like 2 C-type trains in the terminal. I wonder what these cars could have been doing there, as the bulk of the subway service should have been made up of the steel BMT standards (and these cars definatly were NOT Standards).
Perhaps they were from the old Lexington Ave. el service to downtown Brooklyn.
-Dave
That couldn't be. The Lexington Ave. El couldn't fit 10' wide cars. The C-Types were 10' wide on the bottom. The Lexington Ave. El ran nothing but BU's. The Lefferts Ave. Terminal was identical to 168th St.-Jamaica. That's probably what the picture was of - Lefferts, not 168th St. But it also had to be later than 1921, as there were no C-Types in 1921.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It definatly was 168th St. I recognized the station, plus the big Jamaica Avenue sign. It wasn't any of the BU gate cars, but it clearly looked like the C Type. They had those 2 Low-V type lanterns attached on the top at the end of the car. From what I saw, they had to be C-Types. Perhaps it's mis-dated.
Was there a circus parade in the picture. If yes, then get the book, "Old Queens in Early Pictures", and you will see it in the Jamaica section. There is no question that it is Jamaica Ave. You can read the 168th St. sign and the Liberty Ave. line dosen't go anywhere near that. Lefferts Ave. (Blvd) is about 120th Street. The authors date the photo to about 1921, which is the date you stated.
I'm not so sure about the parade. I was too busy staring at the train station.
One possible explanation for the C-Types being there was that the Fulton Ferry spur of the Broadway el was still in operation and perhaps those trains I saw consisted of that service. However, if BMT Lines states that C types didn't exist in 1921, then I'm stumped as to what those cars were. They were NOT standards. The pic is too old for Q types. It has to be misdated.
I'll take a look in the book 2 nite and report back. I'll give a description of the trains. I don't have a scanner, so I can't put out the picture. Even if I did, I would imagine it is against the copyright law.
I'll take a look in the book 2 nite and report back. I'll give a description of the trains. I don't have a scanner, so I can't put out the picture. Even if I did, I would imagine it is against the copyright law.
To put a photo on SubTalk for educational purposes would not be a violation of copyright law. That's the one loophole when it comes to copyright law - it is OK to use copyrighted material for educational purposes without obtaining permission. Its done on college sites all the time.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
> To put a photo on SubTalk for educational purposes would not be a
> violation of copyright law. That's the one loophole when it comes to
> copyright law - it is OK to use copyrighted material for educational
> purposes without obtaining permission. Its done on college sites all
> the time.
If you're not a lawyer I'd be careful when you make statements like this. SubTalk is obviously not affiliated with any educational institutions even if the conversation may at times be educational. And much of the conversation isn't particularly educational at all.
Even though you can't actually put photos on my site there may still be liability issues on my part. For instance I could make a page and link to corporate logos or copyrighted images elsewhere- I bet I'd still be in violation even if i just linked to them. In this case you'd be hosting the image on your own web site and would also be liable if a lawyer came a'calling. However, if the picture is more than 75 years old I doubt any one is going to argue very much about it. I'm no lawyer but I'd guess the copyright goes to the creator, and does not protect the image republished in a current book once the image itself had fallen into the public domain.
We really need an I.P. lawyer to comment on here from time to time. If anyone knows one (or is one), drop me a line privately.
-Dave
> To put a photo on SubTalk for educational purpose
> To put a photo on SubTalk for educational purposes would not be a
> violation of copyright law. That's the one loophole when it comes to
> copyright law - it is OK to use copyrighted material for educational
> purposes without obtaining permission. Its done on college sites all
> the time.
If you're not a lawyer I'd be careful when you make statements like this. SubTalk is obviously not affiliated with any educational institutions even if the conversation may at times be educational. And much of the conversation isn't particularly educational at all.
Even though you can't actually put photos on my site there may still be liability issues on my part. For instance I could make a page and link to corporate logos or copyrighted images elsewhere- I bet I'd still be in violation even if i just linked to them. In this case you'd be hosting the image on your own web site and would also be liable if a lawyer came a'calling. However, if the picture is more than 75 years old I doubt any one is going to argue very much about it. I'm no lawye
> To put a photo on SubTalk for educational purposes would not be a
> violation of copyright law. That's the one loophole when it comes to
> copyright law - it is OK to use copyrighted material for educational
> purposes without obtaining permission. Its done on college sites all
> the time.
If you're not a lawyer I'd be careful when you make statements like this. SubTalk is obviously not affiliated with any educational institutions even if the conversation may at times be educational. And much of the conversation isn't particularly educational at all.
Even though you can't actually put photos on my site there may still be liability issues on my part. For instance I could make a page and link to corporate logos or copyrighted images elsewhere- I bet I'd still be in violation even if i just linked to them. In this case you'd be hosting the image on your own web site and would also be liable if a lawyer came a'calling. However, if the picture is more than 75 years old I doubt any one is going to argue very much about it. I'm no lawyer but I'd guess the copyright goes to the creator, and does not protect the image republished in a current book once the image itself had fallen into the public domain.
We really need an I.P. lawyer to comment on here from time to time. If anyone knows one (or is one), drop me a line privately.
-Dave
Dave, you're entirely correct. I don't think anyone should take the chance without fully knowing the possible consequences. I was just raising a point. If I appeared to incite somebody to do something with consequences attached, I apologize. I am not a lawyer, obviously. I did have to research the subject at hand for a term paper that was required of me while pursuing my AS in Multimedia Technology. The paper was about copyright law as it relates to multimedia. Here is an excerpt from my research:
The "Fair Use" Exception to Copyrighted Works:
Even if the material you want to use is protected by copyright, you will not need permission if your intended use constitutes a "fair use." Under the fair use rule, an author is permitted to make limited use of preexisting protected works without asking permission. All copyright owners are deemed to give their automatic consent to the fair use of their work by others. The fair use rule is an important exception to a copyright owner's exclusive rights.
The fair use rule is designed to aid the advancement of knowledge, which is the reason for having a copyright law in the first place. The Fair Use clause enables people to use copyrighted material without express permission if it is for educational purposes, with no monetary gain. If scholars, educators and others were required to obtain permission every time they quoted or otherwise used brief portions of other authors' works, the progress of knowledge would be greatly impeded.
Of course, the legal beagles could probably find loads of loopholes to negate what we think is our rights.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
One possible explanation for the C-Types being there was that the Fulton Ferry spur of the Broadway el was still in operation and perhaps those trains I saw consisted of that service. However, if BMT Lines states that C types didn't exist in 1921, then I'm stumped as to what those cars were. They were NOT standards. The pic is too old for Q types. It has to be misdated.
To my knowledge, both Ferry spurs (Fulton Ferry and Broadway Ferry) used BU's. This is a real mind-boggler - C-Types at 168th St. Jamaica. The year may be off. It wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last. Larry Redbird R-33, any insight on this one?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I can think of two possible candidates. One might be the first BRT steel car #998. She ran on the Marcy Avenue-Broadway Ferry Shuttle until 1916. Starting in 1924 she was made into a pay car. Perhaps inbetween she did miscellaenous work coupled up to some other cars.
The other might be the Instruction Car #999. Both cars had enclosed front ends and at a cursory glance might resemble an IRT car.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Unfurtunatly, there were 2 identical trains on both tracks at the 168th St. terminal. It couldn't have been a one-of-a-kind car.
I can think of two possible candidates. One might be the first BRT steel car #998. She ran on the Marcy Avenue-Broadway Ferry Shuttle until 1916. Starting in 1924 she was made into a pay car. Perhaps inbetween she did miscellaenous work coupled up to some other cars.
The other might be the Instruction Car #999. Both cars had enclosed front ends and at a cursory glance might resemble an IRT car.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That is interesting. I didn't know that the BRT had any odd steel cars. I thought that the first steel BRT cars were the A/B's.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT: #998 was built by the Pressed Steel Compnay for the Transit Developement Corporation in 1908. She apparently was the the last of an order that was built for use on the Boston Elevated. Like 3342 on the IRT she was a pioneer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wasn't aware that this service ever ran farther east then 111th and Jamaica ...
I wasn't aware that this service ever ran farther east then 111th and Jamaica ...
The Lexington Ave. El could not handle anything wider than 9' wide cars. The C-Types were 10' wide on the bottom and could only run on the Fulton St. El. The Lexington Ave. El ran nothing but BU's.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Then the only possible explanation was that this was a fluke incident. Perhaps they were using C-Types on that particular day because of some car shortage, or that they might have been running some sort of shuttle service due to construction. If one took enough pictures of the 2 sets of R62A cars presently on the 5, then future generations might conclude (wrongly) that the entire 5 line was R62.
Then the only possible explanation was that this was a fluke incident. Perhaps they were using C-Types on that particular day because of some car shortage, or that they might have been running some sort of shuttle service due to construction. If one took enough pictures of the 2 sets of R62A cars presently on the 5, then future generations might conclude (wrongly) that the entire 5 line was R62.
Your guess is as good as mine. Hey, I hope future generations don't see my pic of an R-46 at Fresh Pond Road and think that was the normal regular car assignment on the M-Line.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If anyone has been to the DMV office in the old Mays building out in Jamaica, there is a wonderful old picture of the intersection of Jamaica Avenue and 168th St. in the 2nd. floor lobby. It's dated 1921. You can clearly see the terminal of the fairly new BMT el train there, with what looks like 2 C-type trains in the terminal. I wonder what these cars could have been doing there, as the bulk of the subway service should have been made up of the steel BMT standards (and these cars definatly were NOT Standards).
there were no C-Types in 1921. They were converted from BU's in 1923. Even so, I find no reason for the C-Types to be on the Jamaica El. They were running purely A/B's on the line by the time of the Dual Contracts third-tracking and extension of the line to Jamaica. I'd like to see the picture myself to see what you saw. HEY, WAIT A MINUTE! The Lefferts Ave. Terminal was identical to 168th St.-Jamaica. That's probably what the picture was of - Lefferts, not 168th St. But it also had to be later than 1921, as there were no C-Types in 1921.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There is a picture of the 168th Street terminal, circa 1921 in the "Old Queens in Early Pictures" book. The picture shows a circus parade beinning to come out of the el cover. The photo is cleary Jamaica Avenue, not Lefferts Ave. (Blvd.) If the photo Chris saw has that in it, then its the same photo thats in the book.
You can see that Jamaica Ave. narrowed east of 168th Street in those days. The authors state that Jamaica Ave was not widened unil the 1930's
I'd bet anything that this was the same picture I saw. Jamaica Ave. DID narrow as you moved back from the el station.
There is a picture of the 168th Street terminal, circa 1921 in the "Old Queens in Early Pictures" book. The picture shows a circus parade beinning to come out of the el cover. The photo is cleary Jamaica Avenue, not Lefferts Ave. (Blvd.) If the photo Chris saw has that in it, then its the same photo thats in the book.
You can see that Jamaica Ave. narrowed east of 168th Street in those days. The authors state that Jamaica Ave was not widened unil the 1930's
How can C-Types be explained on the Jamaica El in 1921? They never ran on the Jamaica El, and they didn't exist until 1923. Mark, can you scan the photo at 800X600 and put it on the Net, along with the text? I'm so curious, I'd like to see this myself.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm thinking this picture was misdated. I just d/l'ed a picture of a Q type from the Car Roster section of this website, and that's what I saw. The 2 "lanterns" on top of the car, plus the lack of an open ended gate leaves only one possibility left. There had to have been C types running on the Jamaica line, at least at the exact time this photo was snapped. Who knows, it might have been a temporary thing.
I'm thinking this picture was misdated. I just d/l'ed a picture of a Q type from the Car Roster section of this website, and that's what I saw. The 2 "lanterns" on top of the car, plus the lack of an open ended gate leaves only one possibility left. There had to have been C types running on the Jamaica line, at least at the exact time this photo was snapped. Who knows, it might have been a temporary thing.
That's even more puzzling. Q-Types were rebuilt from BU's in 1938 for the 1939 World's Fair. That is even more distant from 1921 than the 1923 C-Types were. Also, the Q's never ran on the Jamaica El. The only thing I can figure is a fan trip. It wouldn't surprise me if a farewell Fulton St. El fantrip might have been run up on Jamaica Ave. with the C-Types. also, there have been some Q-Type fan trips, notably in 1965, 1968 and the final one in 1969 as the Farewell to the Myrtle. I would have to see the photo, and that doesn't seem possible. By the way, nycsubway.org gives 1924 as the date of the C-Types. Since I can't be certain of the 1923 date that I always held to, there's another discrepancy here.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT: The first two C-Types, 1500 and 1501 were rebuilt in 1923. The remainder,1502-1526 were rebuilt in 1925. The C's as a group began service on the #13 Fulton Street Line in September of 1925.
Larry,Redbird R33
BMT: The first two C-Types, 1500 and 1501 were rebuilt in 1923. The remainder,1502-1526 were rebuilt in 1925. The C's as a group began service on the #13 Fulton Street Line in September of 1925.
Larry,Redbird R33
Thanks. that means what's on nycsubway.org, indicating that the C-Types were rebuilt in 1924 is incorrect. What I would like to figure out is why the first 2 C units were built in 1923 and the rest weren't built until 1925. Why the gap in time? Also, one more question:
Most C-Types had doors like the D-Types, with 4 windows and positioned in the same places as on the D's. [There were a few peculiar C's that had 2 windows in each door, like the A/B's and had both doors in the center of the car. Was the latter, more peculiar C-Types 1500 and 1501?
Happy Y2K!
BMT: It doesn't necessarily means something is wrong when dates are off by a year or so after a lapse of 70-odd years. The first two units were rebuilt between 1922 and 1923. An additional modification was made to them in 1925 when the walk-through drum was installed between the three car units. They originally had ten foot wide fronts and ends and two closely spaced narrow doors with two windows.
They were tested and some modifications were made. The wide front was cut back to a nine foot width although the cars remained ten feet wide at floor level.
The C types that followed were rbuilt in 1925 and featured two wide doors with four windows somewhat similar to the D-Types.
Larry,RedbirdR33
BMT: It doesn't necessarily means something is wrong when dates are off by a year or so after a lapse of 70-odd years. The first two units were rebuilt between 1922 and 1923. An additional modification was made to them in 1925 when the walk-through drum was installed between the three car units. They originally had ten foot wide fronts and ends and two closely spaced narrow doors with two windows.
They were tested and some modifications were made. The wide front was cut back to a nine foot width although the cars remained ten feet wide at floor level.
The C types that followed were rbuilt in 1925 and featured two wide doors with four windows somewhat similar to the D-Types.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Iim looking at the photo now. It is a wide shot, taken from the south side of Jamaica Ave. between 168th and 169th Sts. The el terminated between 167th & 168th so it is at a distance as the camera was pointed towards the north west. There is a train on both tracks and they look very similar to me. I am not technical enough about the old BMT to tell what type of trains they are. The description of the photo reads as follows:
"El terminal, 168th St. and Jamaica Ave, 1921. A circus parade is just beginning. Note the aged wooden stores and private house on the corner. Jamaica Avenue shrinks to only sixty feet wide east of this corner. The avenue was widened from here through Hillside, Hollis and Bellaire during 1931-1932, and in the 1960's, 168th Street was widend at this corner and curved to fit its continuation north of Jamaica Avenue. The el itself came down in 1980."
They do not specify the types of trains in the station and I am at a loss to guess.
Mark
Iim looking at the photo now. It is a wide shot, taken from the south side of Jamaica Ave. between 168th and 169th Sts. The el terminated between 167th & 168th so it is at a distance as the camera was pointed towards the north west. There is a train on both tracks and they look very similar to me. I am not technical enough about the old BMT to tell what type of trains they are. The description of the photo reads as follows:
"El terminal, 168th St. and Jamaica Ave, 1921. A circus parade is just beginning. Note the aged wooden stores and private house on the corner. Jamaica Avenue shrinks to only sixty feet wide east of this corner. The avenue was widened from here through Hillside, Hollis and Bellaire during 1931-1932, and in the 1960's, 168th Street was widend at this corner and curved to fit its continuation north of Jamaica Avenue. The el itself came down in 1980."
They do not specify the types of trains in the station and I am at a loss to guess.
Mark
Were the trains in the pic like the train in my animated BMT logo? If they were, they were BMT Standards. BMT Standards are most likely what would have been at 168th St. in 1921. The el was finished in 1917. I don't believe anything other than Standards ran to 168th St. at any time until the multi's came in 1934. the standards were the backbone of the BMT, and the Jamaica El was no exception. Minor exceptions might have been work equipment, or maybe an irregular service due to some mishap. Some mishap on the Broadway line might have resulted in Lexington Ave. trains going all the way to 168th St. Their normal terminus was Eastern Parkway. Lex trains were BU's. C-types on the Jamaica Line just doesn't jive. C-Types ran only on the Fulton St. El due to the fact that they were 10' wide on the bottom. the Fulton St. El was abl to handle 10' wide cars. There was no physical connection from the Fulton St. El to the Jamaica El without wrong-railing. The pic that Chris saw is one big puzzle to me.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Wrong railing? The cars can come out of ENY Yard, can they not? The Yard connects both lines. Prior to 1919, this would have been a different scenario. It would have been possible for the Fulton Trains to continue up onto the Jamaica Line through the old Manhattan Junction, mainline to mainline.
-Stef
Wrong railing? The cars can come out of ENY Yard, can they not? The Yard connects both lines. Prior to 1919, this would have been a different scenario. It would have been possible for the Fulton Trains to continue up onto the Jamaica Line through the old Manhattan Junction, mainline to mainline.
-Stef
Yes, the yard is another story. I was thinking about trains in service on Fulton St., and what they would have to do to get up to Jamaica Ave. As for prior to 1919, this has nothing to do with the 1921 photo.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Certainly not, but I was trying to make a point about what could have been a service pattern had the old Manhattan Junction Complex stayed in place.
-Stef
I don't have the photo with me. From my memory, they are similar but not exact like the BNT standard you show. E mail me off the post and I'll try to get a copy of it over to you.
Mark.
The picture I saw also contained private houses past the end of the el structure. I know the train is only a small part of the picture, but the trains in the station have closed ends, right? If it does, then we have seen the same pic.
Yep they are closed. It has to be the same photo. The credit in the book is to the Queensboro Public Library, not a private collection.
Mark
Yep they are closed. It has to be the same photo. The credit in the book is to the Queensboro Public Library, not a private collection.
Mark
Put it on the Internet so we can all see it. If you don't have a scanner, take it to a friend or an acquaintance that does. We need to get a look at this pic.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
BMT: The first two C-Types, 1500 and 1501 were rebuilt in 1923. The remainder,1502-1526 were rebuilt in 1925. The C's as a group began service on the #13 Fulton Street Line in September of 1925.
Larry,Redbird R33
Thanks. that means what's on nycsubway.org, indicating that the C-Types were rebuilt in 1924 is incorrect. What I would like to figure out is why the first 2 C units were built in 1923 and the rest weren't built until 1925. Why the gap in time? Also, one more question:
Most C-Types had doors like the D-Types, with 4 windows and positioned in the same places as on the D's. [There were a few peculiar C's that had 2 windows in each door, like the A/B's and had both doors in the center of the car. Was the latter, more peculiar C-Types 1500 and 1501?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This was clearly a 1920's picture. The way the people were dressed, plus the myriad of Model T cars on Jamaica Avenue, plus an ancient trolly confirm that.
This was clearly a 1920's picture. The way the people were dressed, plus the myriad of Model T cars on Jamaica Avenue, plus an ancient trolly confirm that.
Larry Redbird R-33 produced another theory, that it might have been one of 2 non-revenue pre-A/B steel cars (998 or 999) roaming the system for some unknown purpose. I don't know. Without seeing the photo, I really couldn't say what was in the photo and when it was taken. I believe you when you say it was a 1920's pic, but what kind of rolling stock was up on the el, I'd have to see the pic to even try to guess. Maybe the photo is older than you think. Maybe it dates back to opening day in 1917 on the Jamaica Avenue extension of the el. As for the enclosed cars, I don't know. Its a puzzle.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Just so you know, 998 was an experimental steel car (I consider it to be classified as a BU), spending time on the Broadway Ferry Shuttle, which was the service from the Ferry Landing to Marcy Avenue until 1916. I'd expect that the car was solo most of the time. According to the Evolution of the NYC Subways Book by Sansone, 998's time carrying passengers was short because the door openings were rather narrow. By 1924, the car was converted to a pay/revenue collection car (as noted by the Sansone Book) and then a rubbish car in 1946. 998 received a center door in it's final role as a rubbish car. The car was finally scrapped in 1960. 998 was an example of things to come for the BRT. In a few years, we would see the AB Standards make their debut.
999, meanwhile, was the last car in the order of 900 series el cars built for the BRT. The last unit was more unique than the rest. It was made of wood, but it had enclosed ends. 999's status is that of an instruction car, used to train new motormen. This car is among several el cars located up at Branford. If you like to see pictures of the car, they're on the Museum Roster Page.
As for the continuous debate on the what's in the picture of the Jamiaca El, I'd consider the C Type Theory with an incorrect date on that photo. It's possible that there could have been a slight deviation in C Type Operation. They didn't always have to be on the Fulton St El.
-Stef
Just so you know, 998 was an experimental steel car (I consider it to be classified as a BU), spending time on the Broadway Ferry Shuttle, which was the service from the Ferry Landing to Marcy Avenue until 1916. I'd expect that the car was solo most of the time. According to the Evolution of the NYC Subways Book by Sansone, 998's time carrying passengers was short because the door openings were rather narrow. By 1924, the car was converted to a pay/revenue collection car (as noted by the Sansone Book) and then a rubbish car in 1946. 998 received a center door in it's final role as a rubbish car. The car was finally scrapped in 1960. 998 was an example of things to come for the BRT. In a few years, we would see the AB Standards make their debut.
999, meanwhile, was the last car in the order of 900 series el cars built for the BRT. The last unit was more unique than the rest. It was made of wood, but it had enclosed ends. 999's status is that of an instruction car, used to train new motormen. This car is among several el cars located up at Branford. If you like to see pictures of the car, they're on the Museum Roster Page.
As for the continuous debate on the what's in the picture of the Jamiaca El, I'd consider the C Type Theory with an incorrect date on that photo. It's possible that there could have been a slight deviation in C Type Operation. They didn't always have to be on the Fulton St El.
-Stef
thanks for the info on 998 and 999. Stephen Bauman made the following post earlier today:
I just looked at my copy of "Old Queens, N.Y. in Early Photographs." There is a picture of the 168th St Terminal taken during a circus parade. There are trains in the station. The trains are composed of gate cars. The perspective makes it difficult to tell this. But they are definitely gate cars. I believe I saw the same picture at the DMV Jamaica office earlier this year. It did not raise an questions in my mind at that time.
One of the cars has a center door. The other may be a convertible. One of the cars has a trolley pole which would have seen duty going to Canarsie Pier or Norton's Point in 1921. I believe that wooden cars were used in Nassau St up til 1928.
He mentions the DMV photo and says they were gate cars. We have 2 possibilities - BU's and C-Types. I cannot make a judgement without seeing the photo.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The picture I saw contained trains with closed ends. They were not gate cars. The mystery continues.
I hate to post a teaser, but I winnowed the following out of my pile of BMT source notes which I transcribed many suns and moon ago:
"Subway trains (steel cars) commenced operating Chambers to Jamaica 1201 am, April 1, 1923 6 car articulated trains 7-21 min am & pm rush."
That rather cryptic note bears some analysis and speculation.
It's clear the subway cars are B-types. But what are the "articulated" trains. The date is too early for the Green Hornet, which was five sections, not six anyway.
The C-types could have been been six cars (two 3-car units). Strictly speaking, they weren't articulated in the Green Hornet or Triplex sense, but they were permanently coupled with drawbars and vestibules.
Maybe the BMT was trying the newly converted C-types on Jamaica while they were trimming platforms and checking clearances on Fulton.
As I said, pure speculation.
Paul: Your right that the C's were not articulated but many people thought that they were due to the drum diaphram between the cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I hate to post a teaser, but I winnowed the following out of my pile of BMT source notes which I transcribed many suns and moon ago:
"Subway trains (steel cars) commenced operating Chambers to Jamaica 1201 am, April 1, 1923 6 car articulated trains 7-21 min am & pm rush."
That rather cryptic note bears some analysis and speculation.
It's clear the subway cars are B-types. But what are the "articulated" trains. The date is too early for the Green Hornet, which was five sections, not six anyway.
The C-types could have been been six cars (two 3-car units). Strictly speaking, they weren't articulated in the Green Hornet or Triplex sense, but they were permanently coupled with drawbars and vestibules.
Maybe the BMT was trying the newly converted C-types on Jamaica while they were trimming platforms and checking clearances on Fulton.
As I said, pure speculation.
That sounds like a good theory. It is entirely possible. Now we need to verify that it either happened or it didn't happen. If at all possible, I would like for someone to scan the photo and put it on the Internet so we can take a good look at it. Someone mentioned about the same photo being in a book about historical Queens, or something like that. If Dave doesn't want it on SubTalk, put it on your own web space and post the URL. Better yet, get an account on Geocities, Angelfire or Xoom under a ficticious name just in case the copyright police look to come after you.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Now all we have to do is explain the date on this picture (1921), which has to be wrong if these cars are C-types.
Did the BU gate cars have open ends on each end?
Did the BU gate cars have open ends on each end?
With rare exceptions, yes. Some of the early electrified units put a cab on the front platform. You can see this here. (Scroll down to the bottom)
When electrification became general, the cab was inside the car body and the motorman looked past the platform. The effect was a little weird, kind of like if you steered your car from the back seat, but I'm sure you got used to it fast.
Did the BU gate cars have open ends on each end?
With rare exceptions, yes. Some of the early electrified units put a cab on the front platform. You can see this here. (Scroll down to the bottom)
When electrification became general, the cab was inside the car body and the motorman looked past the platform. The effect was a little weird, kind of like if you steered your car from the back seat, but I'm sure you got used to it fast.
That is the oddest looking BU I ever saw. It looks nothing like any of the other BU's. I'm not even talking about the front. I'm talking about the side. It even had a center top headlight, like the Manhattan gate cars. That's something the BU's didn't have.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Its similar to motor car 726 seen in this picture after the Malbone Street wreck.
Note the visible headlight bracket.
It was pretty dark on New Utrecht Avenue at night before the area got built up...
Sort of like BU's as interurbans. Thems were the days.
Its similar to motor car 726 seen in this picture after the Malbone Street wreck.
Note the visible headlight bracket.
It was pretty dark on New Utrecht Avenue at night before the area got built up...
Sort of like BU's as interurbans. Thems were the days.
It is similar, but not the same. Look at the upper window panels. On the car with the enclosed cab (BTW, only the cab is enclosed, not the other side which has railing), the upper part of the window is one solid pane of glass over 2 lower window panels that open. On 726, each window, upper and lower is separate. They are similar though. the car with the enclosed cab is one of the oddest looking BU's I've ever seen.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This must have been one of the pre-MU experimental electric
cars ca. 1896. I've also seen versions where the motorman's
stand is out on the open platform, on the off (left) side!
These would have used the heavy-duty type "L" controller.
After Sprague invented MU in 1897, Brooklyn quickly adopted that
instead.
Here is a picture of a C type at Eastern
Parkway. Perhaps their appearance on the old J line wasn't that unusual after all.
Here is a picture of a C type at Eastern
Parkway. Perhaps their appearance on the old J line wasn't that unusual after all.
Teeir appearance on the Jamaica El is odd. BTW, never insert a <br> in a URL link. It screws things up. I had to take that bit of HTML out of your link to get to the photo.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Actually, I didn't put line break in the HTML code. It was inserted after I "previewed" my post, and it took 4 posts to finally fix it.
Actually, I didn't put line break in the HTML code. It was inserted after I "previewed" my post, and it took 4 posts to finally fix it.
I noticed your other posts after I mentioned about the line break. I assumed at that point that you were aware of the problem and were trying to fix it. BTW, I very rarely preview my posts. after finding out now, that it can cause problems, I will probably never use it.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I very rarely preview my posts. after finding out now, that it can cause problems, I will probably never use it.
I usually do, if I have any HTML in it. I can catch the failure to close off italic, for example, and I test any links. I guess previewing might have found your link problem.
No, the problem was after I previewed it.. The preview showed the HTML to work fine. Then after I hit "back" and went to "pst message", then I noticed the problem.
The post that finally got it right was the one I did not preview.
Maybe if you posted the message directly from the preview screen instead of doing the back button, then posting??
Yeah, I didn't realize I could do that. Next time I use an HTML code in a post I'll try it.
You can't go back from a preview and the click post without making any changes. You didn't notice the POST button? or the error message when posting the unmodified message?
In searching my archives, I came up with the 1921 photo in question. It was in the ERA Farewell to the Jamaica El Fan Trip (Sunday, September 11, 1977) brochure. There is no question. Those trains in the terminal were BU's. I will not put these on SubTalk for fear of violating copyright laws. The photo shows an elephant parade on Jamaica Ave. at 168th St. in 1921. There are 2 trains in the terminal up on the el. A close look reveals that they can be nothing but BU's. Because the photo was in an ERA fan trip brochure, there was a text caption under the photo, which reads:
"THE ELEPHANT LINE" at 168th Street in 1921, before the area was developed as a major commercial center. An inbound New York & Long Island Traction Company car has just passed the parade and is ducking under the Jamaica El 168th Street station. On the el structure BU cars are stored during the day when shorter trains are operated in passenger service.
John F. Hylan Collection
I sent a scan of the full-size photo, along with a cropped close-up of the trains and the el in the photo in an e-mail to Chris. Anyone who rode the Farewell to the Jamaica El fan trip on 9/11/77 has the photo. This finally solves the mystery of C-Types on the Jamaica El.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Actually - the train pictured was probably a Fulton St. line train. From 1950 (when the Lexington Ave. El service ended) until 1956 some non-rush hour Fulton St. runs went to Eastern Parkway rather than Rockaway Ave.
-- Ed Sachs
Here is a href="http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els/bmt-c/
bmtc09.jpg">picture of a C type at Eastern
Parkway. Perhaps their appearance on the old J line
wasn't that unusual after all.
Here is a picture of a C type at Eastern
Parkway. Perhaps their appearance on the old J line wasn't that unusual after all.
Let's try this again: Here's that pic
To see C-Types at Eastern Parkway was not unusual and it doesn't mean they were operating east of there on the Jamaica Line. Eastern Parkway was the non-rush hour terminal for Fulton Street L trains from some time after the Fulton subway was extended (beyond Rockaway Avenue to Broadway-ENY and then to Euclid) until the cessation of service. Rockaway Avenue was the terminal during rush hours.
What's the date of the picture, BTW?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Not sure. But judging from the fact that the overpass connecting to the IND is in place, I'd say it would have to be after 1945.
To see C-Types at Eastern Parkway was not unusual and it doesn't mean they were operating east of there on the Jamaica Line. Eastern Parkway was the non-rush hour terminal for Fulton Street L trains from some time after the Fulton subway was extended (beyond Rockaway Avenue to Broadway-ENY and then to Euclid) until the cessation of service. Rockaway Avenue was the terminal during rush hours.
What's the date of the picture, BTW?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I didn't think Fulton St. trains went to Eastern Parkway. I thought they all terminated at Rockaway Ave. What's this about Eastern Parkway being the non-rush hour terminal and Rockaway Ave. being the rush hour terminal? Now I'm really confused. Are you tying to say that Rockaway Ave. was closed except for rush hours? That doesn't make sense.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Why doesn't it? Between 1942 and 1956 the el was COMPLETELY duplicated by the IND from Rockaway to Atlantic and didn't even provide a transfer to the Jamaica line. I guess rush hours they didn't have the capacity to terminate at Eastern Parkway and therefore provided transfer to the IND (LOCAL) at Rockaway Avenue. Otherwise Rockaway would have been closed in 1942. After 1948, the IND went to Euclid, but the only duplicated stop was Pennsylvania/Liberty.
Why doesn't it? Between 1942 and 1956 the el was COMPLETELY duplicated by the IND from Rockaway to Atlantic and didn't even provide a transfer to the Jamaica line. I guess rush hours they didn't have the capacity to terminate at Eastern Parkway and therefore provided transfer to the IND (LOCAL) at Rockaway Avenue. Otherwise Rockaway would have been closed in 1942. After 1948, the IND went to Euclid, but the only duplicated stop was Pennsylvania/Liberty.
It just doesn't make sense to keep a station open during rush hours only. BTW, I just referred to a map that I have, dated December, 1952. All it says for the BMT Fulton St. Line is Lefferts Ave. to Rockaway Ave. and Eastern Parkway. That was on the route guide. The actual map, itself shows the skinny black line that they used to denote elevated lines going to Rockaway Ave. only, not to Eastern Parkway. The route guide gives no hours of operation. How do any of us know that Rockaway Ave. saw service during rush hours only. Let some of our resident SubTalk experts document service on the Fulton St. El between 1940 and 1956.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I don't know if there was non-rush service to Rockaway Ave, but there definitly was to Eastern Parkway (I recall riding it once).
There was also rush hour service from Lefferts which provided a connection to the Jamaica line via the 14th St-Fulton St service.
-- Ed Sachs
Effective June 1,1940 #13 Fulton Street Local trains ran between Rockaway Avenue and Lefferts Avenue at all times.
Effective June 26,1952 Rockaway Avenue Station was closed Monday-Friday during evenings and midnight hours and all day Saturday and Sunday. During these times #13 trains terminated at the Eastern Parkway Station of the Broadway-Brooklyn Line.
Effective April 27,1956 all service was discontinued between Rockaway Avenue and 80 Street.
Fulton-Lexington Locals ran from June 1,1940 to October 13,1950. Trains ran between Park Row (Bridge-Jay after March 5,1944) and Grant Avenue weekday midday and Saturday morning and afternoon. Service was extended to Lefferts Avenue during Weekday rush hours and Saturday morning am rush.
#13 14 St-Fulton St trains ran until April 27,1956.
Most of this from "History of BMT Subway and L Services" by Bernie Linder.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Effective June 1,1940 #13 Fulton Street Local trains ran between Rockaway Avenue and Lefferts Avenue at all times.
Effective June 26,1952 Rockaway Avenue Station was closed Monday-Friday during evenings and midnight hours and all day Saturday and Sunday. During these times #13 trains terminated at the Eastern Parkway Station of the Broadway-Brooklyn Line.
Effective April 27,1956 all service was discontinued between Rockaway Avenue and 80 Street.
Fulton-Lexington Locals ran from June 1,1940 to October 13,1950. Trains ran between Park Row (Bridge-Jay after March 5,1944) and Grant Avenue weekday midday and Saturday morning and afternoon. Service was extended to Lefferts Avenue during Weekday rush hours and Saturday morning am rush.
#13 14 St-Fulton St trains ran until April 27,1956.
Most of this from "History of BMT Subway and L Services" by Bernie Linder.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ok. This makes more sense to me than what someone else posted, indicating that Rockaway Ave. saw rush hour service only. It would not make any sense to keep a station open during rush hours only, but all day except evenings, nights and weekends seems more likely. Thanks for the Fulton St. El history, Larry,RedbirdR33.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Prior to the Dual Contracts rebuilding of the East New York-Atlantic Avenue Interlocking in the 1916-18 period it was indeed possible for a Fulton Street Line train to run directly to Cypress Hills Terminal without reversing direction and vice-versa. After rebuilding all Fulton Street trains from the west turned south into the Atlantic Avenue Station and then east to go to Lefferts Avenue. To run from lower Fulton Street to the Jamaica Avenue Line after that time would have required a reverse move to Eastern Parkway or a run through the East New York Yard which may or may not have involved changing ends.
This would have been most impratical even during a service disruption.
The first two C-Types entered service in 1923 and were used as test cars for the others. They certainly may have run to Jamaica either as a #14 or #15 or simply to test clearances without passengers on different lines. The first two units were not even renumbered until 1925 which probably indicates that if the tests were unsuccessful they would have reverted back to BU's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No, I don't have a scanner. There may be a problem with the copyright laws even if I did. I will look at it 2 nite and describe what the cars look like. Of course I don't know a Q car from a gate car so my description may not be worth much, but I'll do the best I can.
Mark.
I just looked at my copy of "Old Queens, N.Y. in Early Photographs." There is a picture of the 168th St Terminal taken during a circus parade. There are trains in the station. The trains are composed of gate cars. The perspective makes it difficult to tell this. But they are definitely gate cars. I believe I saw the same picture at the DMV Jamaica office earlier this year. It did not raise an questions in my mind at that time.
One of the cars has a center door. The other may be a convertible. One of the cars has a trolley pole which would have seen duty going to Canarsie Pier or Norton's Point in 1921. I believe that wooden cars were used in Nassau St up til 1928.
IIRC the gate cars ran on street level on Jamaica Ave to 168th St for a short time until the el was built around 1918. If they did run on the ground on Jamaica Ave, even for a short period of time, they would have used trolley poles there too. I am not quite old enough to remember this, but there was supposedly a ramp from the el on Crescent St that connected to tracks at street level on Jamaica Ave and for a short period of time gate cars ran along the street to Jamaica.
El cars ran at street level on Jamaica Ave for a short time in 1903.
Many Brooklyn El cars had trolley poles and ran at grade prior to the Dual Contracts. However, by 1921 the only stretches that still required trolley poles for El cars were the run to Canarsie Pier and Norton's Point. All the other lines had been replaced by El's or subways. Some had been converted into trolley lines as were Canarsie Pier and Norton's Point eventually.
By 1921 both Canarsie & Norton's Point were operated by trolleys, Canarsie in 1917 and Norton's Point in 1919. That was the end of regular trolley pole operation of subway or elevated cars on the NYC system.
From Headlights Sept-Nov 1975: "Through elevated service from Manhattan to the beach was cut back to Rockaway Parkway in October 1917, with shuttle elevated cars running from Rockaway Parkway to the waters edge. The shuttle elevated cars on the surface private right-of-way were replaced with the streetcars in Oct. 1920."
From The Tracks of New York Number 2: "El car operation lasted only for 1 1/2 years and in October 1919 streetcars again took over the service."
I stand corrected.
The picture was taken in summer of 1921. The trolley pole on one of the trains would not have been used for almost one year.
Duly noted.
My source notes have the following:
"Canarsie elevated trains terminated at Rockaway Parkway and shuttle service operated between Canarsie Shore and Rockaway Parkway with trolley cars, October 26, 1917."
That isn't to say Headlights' source isn't correct. It's just what I have.
You should have lived in Chicago. The Evanston L line (Purple line) used trolley poles and overhead wire into the 1970s.
-- Ed Sachs
You should have lived in Chicago. The Evanston L line (Purple line) used trolley poles and overhead wire into the 1970s.
How about Skokie Swift? Doesn't it still use overhead?
Isn't Cleveland all overhead wire with pantographs? How about the Revere Beach Line in Boston?
Of course latter two don't have grade crossings, unless you count the Shaker Heights.
[ How about Skokie Swift? Doesn't it still use overhead? ]
Yes, but pantographs, not trolley poles.
-- Ed Sachs
The East Boston Line used trolley poles prior to the extension to Revere Beach. The trolley pole excursion was along Charles St and over the Longfellow Bridge but not in revenue service. They've used pantographs after the extension to Revere Beach.
Yes, and that was the only reason the 4000-series all steel heavyweights (for Chicago, anyway) survived into the 70s - they had trolley poles. You could say that those which were snapped up by museums came "ready to run" - assuming, of course, that they were operable.
Thorugh service to the Canarsie Shore ended on October 26,1917 with el cars providing a shuttle service until until replaced by trolleys on October 18,1920.
This is according to Bernie Linder in "Brooklyn Rapid Transit Service 1908-1948." Other sources such as "Tracks of NY Vol 2" confirm this. I think that in this case Headlights might have been in error.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did you know that street running of BUs took place on Jamaica
Ave for about one year (1903-1904, I believe). It met with
considerable objection from the locals.
Did you know that street running of BUs took place on Jamaica
Ave for about one year (1903-1904, I believe). It met with
considerable objection from the locals
The pic is in the Tracks of New York Vol. 2. It is of a 2-car BU with trolley poles at Washington St. (160th St.) and Jamaica Ave. on the ground. The lead car is an 1100 series Stephenson car from 1902. The caption says this occurred during 1903 for a brief period.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It met with considerable opposition, as did the eventual el. Local government came VERY close to rejecting the planned BRT extension over Jamaica Ave., and demanded that they build a subway. After the BRT said "take it or leave it", the plan was narrowly approved.
As stated in an earlier post, it was definatley 168th St. The street signage confirmed that. That's the first thing I thought when I saw those unusual cars.
From "Headlights", Sept-Nov 1975
"On August 4, 1913, Broadway Brooklyn elevated trains terminated at Chamber St., Manhattan, a rare instance of regular elevated equipment, all or partly of wood construction, operating in a multi-track Manhattan subway for several stations....Steel subway cars were introduced on the Broadway elevated in 1918, but nine more years were required before all open-platform elevated equipment was replaced on this line."
A News 1 report this morning said the MTA was going to take a toy maker to court for using the MTA logo without the agency's permission. I'm not sure of the comapny, but the company claims to be using the old TA (not the new one) logo to depict it's model trains from the 60s and 70s. The various MTA\TA logos have been used for quite a while, so why complain about it now?
Scenario: If this suit were to reach the court and the MTA were to win, what would that do to those who were using the logo for their own purposes? Web Sites, the Model Railroading Industry, and Others would be affected. A precedent would be set, and I'm afraid the hobbyist would lose out.
-Stef
If this suit were to reach the court and the MTA were to win, what would that do to those who were using the logo for their own purposes? Web Sites, the Model Railroading Industry, and Others would be affected. A precedent would be set, and I'm afraid the hobbyist would lose out.
There are plenty of precedents in this area already. The crucial difference is whether someone's using the logo to make money, as are the companies selling model RR equipment with TA livery. The TA, or any other copyright holder, are HIGHLY unlikely to go after individual hobbyists who use the logo themselves.
Frankly, all the TA wants is to establish that they get to control the usage of their logo -- so, among other things, vendors of nonlicensed t-shirts with the subway map, the logo, etc., on them can be shut down.
Agree with it or not, that's how the law works. The TA isn't doing anything that any profit-making company hasn't done for a long time. Case in point: Flatiron Capital Partners, a Silicon Alley-based venture capital firm, had to license the image of the Flatiron Building which was part of their logo.
The TA is just late in doing what everyone else has done for years.
There are plenty of precedents in this area already. The crucial difference is whether someone's using the logo to make money, as are the companies selling model RR equipment with TA livery. The TA, or any other copyright holder, are HIGHLY unlikely to go after individual hobbyists who use the logo themselves.
Frankly, all the TA wants is to establish that they get to control the usage of their logo -- so, among other things, vendors of nonlicensed t-shirts with the subway map, the logo, etc., on them can be shut down.
Agree with it or not, that's how the law works. The TA isn't doing anything that any profit-making company hasn't done for a long time. Case in point: Flatiron Capital Partners, a Silicon Alley-based venture capital firm, had to license the image of the Flatiron Building which was part of their logo.
The TA is just late in doing what everyone else has done for years.
Do a search engine search for Yankee sites. You will find hundreds, if not thousands of personal web sites about the Yankees with the Yankee logo on them. George Steinbrenner is not going to sue all those people. Hey, its free publicity for the Yankees, anyway. I even had my own Yankee page in 1996.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Failure to prosecute WILL result in loss of copywrite Transit doesnt care since they pay off the judges
Failure to prosecute WILL result in loss of copywrite Transit doesnt care since they pay off the judges
I actually looked into this when I worked for my school paper. It's called fair use, as long as you are not using it to market a product. Basically, our concern was use in news stories, which was fine.
-Hank
I actually looked into this when I worked for my school paper. It's called fair use, as long as you are not using it to market a product. Basically, our concern was use in news stories, which was fine.
-Hank
All I was saying was publishing a photo on SubTalk for discussion on the forum. That's not even permanent. But, if Dave doesn't want us to do it, its his site. He has the right to call the shots.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If you have any doubt as to whether it's legal to post the picture, or whatever, and want to do it anyway, post it on your own web page and provide a link (rather than an inline image). That should circumvent any liability of this site...
-Dave
p.s. your huge footer has some invalid html, looks like you're missing an /a somewhere.
If you have any doubt as to whether it's legal to post the picture, or whatever, and want to do it anyway, post it on your own web page and provide a link (rather than an inline image). That should circumvent any liability of this site...
-Dave
p.s. your huge footer has some invalid html, looks like you're missing an /a somewhere.
I have no problem with providing a link on anything that's copyright questionable. So far, everything that I've put on SubTalk in the way of graphics in the past, to my knowledge has not been copyright questionable. BTW, thanks for alerting me on the missing HTML tag closure. It has been corrected.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Since Dave's not making money off of the use of the MTA logo, I don't see why they would make that a big deal. The toymaker is. However, they state that they use the TA logo from the 60's and 70's, which had their copyright privelages lost when the city didn't renew them when they were replaced.
Since Dave's not making money off of the use of the MTA logo, I don't see why they would make that a big deal. The toymaker is. However, they state that they use the TA logo from the 60's and 70's, which had their copyright privelages lost when the city didn't renew them when they were replaced.
The TA had 5 logos. They had the old NYCTS logo with the R-12 (or R-10) over a map of NYC with the city skyline above, used from 1953 to 1963.this logo was originally on the Redbird R-29/33's. They had the TA logo which was the original logo on the R-33/36 WF cars, R-32's, R-38's and R-40 Slants. Then came the M Transit logo as was on the R-40M's, R-42's, R-44's and R-46's. Then there were 2 versions of the MTA logo, one of which is currently used. As far as I'm concerned, the only logo that they have rights to under copyright law is the current one. I think an entity gives up previous copyrights once they adopt a new logo.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I don't think they should have changed it in the first place. The old TA from the 33/36 wf cars is my favorite. They should never have allowed the MTA parent agency to usurp the TA's identity.
LIRR tries real hard to avoid that. We should have too.
Hey, even NASA went back to their old logo.
I kinda like the one that first came out on the R40 and 42 in the late 60's. I'm still mystified as to why the retired the old "meatball" to begin with.
It's when the MTA took oversight of the TA. They had to put their stamp on everything. Erase any vestiges of TA autonomy from the state agency known as Money Thrown Away. The ones on the R40's was the same as the one on the R33/36 WF cars. We finally found something to agree upon!
Yeah that was a neat logo (I think I even have an old TA patch somewhere).
BTW, the 1954 logo with the R-10 is interesting. The train appears to be coming out of the Jamacia Bay area on the cityscape. That is no accident since the TA wanted to subtlely indicate their acquisition of the former LIRR Rockaway Beach branch and the new rolling stock that was going to provide much of that service.
Doug aka BMTman
I don't think they should have changed it in the first place. The old TA from the 33/36 wf cars is my favorite. They should never have allowed the MTA parent agency to usurp the TA's identity.
LIRR tries real hard to avoid that. We should have too.
Hey, even NASA went back to their old logo.
I agree. That one was my favorite also. I hated the M with a passion. I don't care for the current logos either. besides, the subway is run by the City Transit Authority, not the State Transit Authority. The State Agency just oversees things. Bring back the old TA logo. Put it on all the cars.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I wish they still had some of those R33/36 WF TA logos around.
None of the logos have ever included a © symbol, or TM or SM or any such indication. Don't they forfeit any copyright or trademark protection if they fail to assert it when using the symbol in question?
None of the logos have ever included a © symbol, or TM or SM or any such indication. Don't they forfeit any copyright or trademark protection if they fail to assert it when using the symbol in question?
No, they don't forfeit anything. A copyright can be implied.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
> Don't they forfeit any copyright or trademark protection if they
> fail to assert it when using the symbol in question?
Absolutely not. Copyright under the Berne Convention is implied even when not stated with any such message.
Take a look at the Copyright Office web site at
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/.
There's a faq (which being a Federal government publication isn't copyrighted), some interesting items are as follows:
--- begin summary of faq ---
When is work protected?.. the moment it is created in a tangible form that is perceptible directly or by machine
Do I have to register?... no, registration is voluntary and only required if you wish to bring an infringement lawsuit. Registered works may be eligible for damages in the case of a successful infringement litigation.
Do I have to renew my copyright? No (not since 1/1/1978, optional prior to that)
Can I register [someone else's work]? Yes if you're the copyright transferee (by will, inheritance, etc). Copyright is the right of the author and authors heirs and assignees not the one who merely possesses the work
Does a work have to be published? No
Can I copyright the name of my band? No, names are not protected, nor are titles, slogans or short phrases [very interesting!!] however these things may be protected as trade marks. Copyright may be available for logo art work and also trade mark protection.
How much of someone's work can I use? Fair use covers limited portions such as quotes for commentary, criticism, news reporting, scholarly reports. [note! it doesn't cover "using something in it's entirety in the name of education" like we were discussing earlier today]
What is the copyright notice? The notice is an identifier informing the world of copyright protection. Once required, it is now OPTIONAL. It does NOT require registration with the copyright office.
What about other countries? The U.S. has copyright relations (the "Berne Convention") with more than 100 countries.
--- end summary of faq ---
The FAQ doesn't mention who is or is not eligble for copyright protection. IIRC, the limit on government publications was specifically in re. the federal government and may not necessarily include state governments and state agencies.
Doesn't Intellectual Property SUCK?!
Examining the changes in copyright laws over the past 20 years,
it is a very scary landscape. We are moving more and more towards
criminalizing the possession of information itself.
The MTA has asserted at times that not only is its logo (who would
want to copy it anyway?) copyrighed, but also images of its
equipment. It has required model train car manufacturers to
license, for example, the Slant 40 design. In my opinion, this
is akin to requiring a painter to license the image of a bowl of
fruit.
The spirit of the fair use doctrine has always been to allow
small portions of a copyrighted work to be extracted and used
for non-commercial purposes. Recent trends in legislation are
eroding that privilege.
We have to blame the music, software and publishing
industries to name a few. In an era where the technology
is outpacing their grip on the artists who provide the raw
materiel for their profit making machine, they are
promoting a lot of this type of legislation. They use big
corporate dollars to influence and lobby law makers into
passing this type of protectionist stuff.
The internet has web sites that provide new music for
free, or directly from the artists without a record label
middle man. There are sites where authors can provide free
downloads of their novels and stories. All this bypasses
the blood sucking middle men who skim off the profits but
don't provide any of the creative work.
In years past they used their infuence to determine what
songs got played (and purchaed as well) and which didn't
on the radio or books got into book sellers shelves. All
to the end of collecting big profits for themselves. In
the early years many artists didn't even see the lions
share of their profits.
So to protect their business interests from the complete
breakdown of their control, they engineer these type of
intelectual property laws. Otherwise the artists and
authors wouldn't need them. They'd sell directly to the
public.
And put the big money men who probably don't have a
creative bone in their body out of business. Hence these
scary, yet in reality difficult to enforce laws.
It also goes without saying that the explosion of home
electronics has made CD's and DAT affordable to the
average consumer. With the technology available to anyone
who wishes to run off their own studio quality copy and
sell it as well, it makes buying a store bought CD almost
a suckers deal. Factor in the Chinese imported boot legs
and the record and motion picture companies are loosing a
fortune in un realized profits.
I don't have any sympathy for these billion dollar
corporations, but they do make a valid legal point.
In the end I think the free and open exchange of
intelectual and artistic ideas will prevail. You can't stop an idea.
Good post Eric. You are right on target.
Doug aka BMTman
In my opinion, this
is akin to requiring a painter to license the image of a bowl of
fruit.
How about the artist who used elephant dung. Did he have to get a license from the Bronx Zoo to ues it?
What about brand names that have become generic household words, like Kleenex and Frigidaire. If Bill Gates ever copyrights the word "Window", we're all in trouble. Then Salaam Allah will have to pay licensing fees to make posts about the "Railfan
Window"!
As for the TA copyrighting images of their equipment, to hell with them. I'm not paying them licensing fees for the use of pics that I either took myself or bought on my web site.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You can't trademark a name and then get royalties for it's use someplace else. You can still have a company sell apple fruits, but there's only one company that can sell Apple computers.
If Bill Gates ever copyrights the word "Window", we're all in trouble.
He tried in the '80s. He failed. Courts determined that the term is too generic.
--Mark
He tried in the '80s. He failed. Courts determined that the term is too generic.
--Mark
You mean they turned "God" down?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the TA is a public benifit corporation of the state of New York, then it is therefore a government agency. As a government agency it's properties are the properties of the people of the state of New York.
Since it's a public domain issue I don't see how the TA can sue. It's like the government copyrighting tax forms or the Presidential seal. These things belong to the people. We paid for them through taxes and user fees.
The TA is just trying to stop the use of their logo in a way they don't approve of.
I'm no lawyer, but I believe that if you can use someone's copyrighted materiel for a review, parody or satire or can copy vehicles in their entierty for model making purposes, then the copyright laws may not apply here.
I agree completely, but remember back in October when a school from Chappaqua used the Presidential Seal on a t-shirt to raise money for the school. The maker of the shirt received a letter from the white House stating that it was illegal to use the presidential seal.
True - but that's not a copyright issue. There is special legislation protecting the Presidential Seal and certain other government insignia from being used without express permission and, in some cases, enabling legislation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
ok which M.T.A. symbol?? los angeles or new york ???? !!!!..
Baltimore
And the MTA in Baltimore DOES NOT copyright the logo they use - there's no problem - unless you want to sell it. It is the State of Maryland after all.
Isn't the Presidential Seal the same as the Great Seal of the United States, as seen on the back of a dollar bill (right side) and on many government buildings and offices, just with some extra lettering around it saying "Seal of the President of the United States"? Can the lettering make the difference of whether it is legal to reproduce it? I have seen lots of plates and similar artwork carrying the U.S. Seal, and of course there are lots of books that feature the other side of the Great Seal (the "eye over the pyramid" symbol). It certainly seems like the White House is on shaky ground here - but that's nothing new for Clinton and crew.
There's federal legislation that protects the Great Seal - it's not just Slick Willie and his minions, for once.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also think that you can use the MTA logo for non-profit, non-moneymaking things. For example, let's say somebody has a website. I think that they have the right to use the MTA logo on their webpage. The TA's arguement is that these ppl are "selling the MTA logo". They're saying that if they let this company sell the logo, then ppl could go around putting the MTA logo on anything and sell it. On one hand, I agree with the MTA b/c if they let ppl use their logo, ppl would abuse it, but on the other hand, I find it kind of stupid to take somebody to court over this.
The MTA logo is readily available in both old and new versions -- albeit with LIRR subtitles. Micro-Scale Decals has made LIRR decal sets in HO and N scale (set 87-759 in HO and 60-759 in N) for years now, and the sets have the older style two-tone blue "M" in a silver circle, as well as the "meatball" (as I have heard it referred to) newer style. Micro-Scale also makes Metro-North sets as well. And, Images Replicas, who made those really nice IRT car kits, also marketed an IRT division decal set which has the two-tone blue "M" logos on silver circles.
Ready made scale models with the MTA logos included (as I know of) some large-scale R-44-type subway train sets from MTH, some HO scale Flxible Metro buses from Road Champs, and also some HO pseudo-RTS type buses from an unknown manufacturer in Taiwan. The both bus types had the newer style MTA logos. I have never seen, but have heard a lot about, the subway train sets, so I do not know which logo is represented on them.
As I understand, a couple of the major railroad companies sent some of the manufacturers "cease and desist" notices regarding use of their logos. Not sure which railroads were involved, but the manufacturers "politely" stopped making models with those rail companies' paint schemes/logos. So much for the free advertising being afforded those companies.
A public benefit corporation is NOT a government agency. It is a hybrid creature - sort of part-government, part-private not-for-profit corporation. Any assets held by such a corporation are assets of the corporation, not the People of the State of New York.
That being said, there are legitimate questions about what is called in intellecetual property law "fair use". This would cover some uses of educational or historical value, as well as satire/parody. However, uses which are purely commercial endeavors would not be protected by the fair use doctrine.
Several years ago GM started suing the manufacturers of plastic car models for using the Chevrolet etc. logo without licensing it first, under the trademark law as I recall (rather than the copyright law). The model manufacturers struck back by simply refusing to make models of GM products, especially after both Ford and Chrysler said "go ahead, we're pleased that you make models of our products and we'll even buy them for resale through our catalogues". GM capitulated within 18 months.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe it was Chrysler that started this with the model cars. AMT wanted to re-release a scale WWII jeep, and Chrysler wouldnt let them without paying first for the rights over the word "jeep" - which was the GI nickname for the M-series GP vehicle made by Willys-Overland and Ford. "Jeep" wasnt used by Willys-Overland (later merging with American Motors, later bought by Chrysler, and now by Diamler) until a few years after the war.
GM and Ford figured they might as well get some bucks too, and hit the model makers up for their cut of very slim profits.
It has also spilled over into the auto restoration business too. Makers of repro parts for antique cars now have to pay royalties on parts the original makers never gave a crap about until 5 years ago.
Would the MTA do the same for IRT/BMT/IND designations or even logos for the Board of Transportation??
BTW - the PCC exterior design images were patented by their designers.
Maybe Chrysler and Ford have done it as well at some point in time, but ... I have been involved in the hobby business since the mid-'80s (as a part-time employee and later part-owner of a hobby shop in North Carolina) and am only aware of GM's actions in the early '90s, and the Ford and Chrysler response to that. Indeed, Ford went so far as to take out full-page ads in the trade publications advertising that they did not require licensing for the use of their logo, simply acknowledgement on the packaging that it was a trademark of Ford Motor Company. I haven't been active in the shop for the past four years (since my primary job is now in New Jersey), although I maintain my financial interest in it, so I'm less familiar with what may have happened during that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is very intriguing.
I told one of our fellow SubTalkers about a coversation that I had some months back with one of the ladies at the Transit Museum gift shop. I asked her why doesn't the TA gift shop release a series of T-shirts, mugs, etc., featuring the different vintage rolling stock over the years. Her answer was surprising: The TA didn't want to get into any licensing problems with the different companies that made the trains.
I told her (with a proud railfan's air of knowledge) that ALL the companies that made cars prior to the R-68 are out of business and have been for nearly 20 years.
Even so, she seemed to believe that there would still be some kind of legal hasseles with depicting rolling stock on marketable items.
Can anyone ad to this?
Doug aka BMTman
True, but Bombardier bought up a lot of the patents. Also, subway cars are generally not designed by their builders. They're designed either by in-house staff of the agencies buying them, or by consultants in the agencies' employ.
David
[I told her (with a proud railfan's air of knowledge) that ALL the companies that made cars prior to the R-68 are out of business and have been for nearly 20 years.]
Good point Dave. I'm forgetting that design companies like Sundberg-
Ferar designed everything from the R-40 through to the R-46 (including the LIRR M-1). Not to mention Ray Loewy's slant R-40 design.
The thing about Bombardier buying up patents on older cars explains an oddity in 'Subway Cars of the BMT' by Jim Greller. Turns out that many of the photos of the Green Hornet, Multis and Zephyrs are credited to (BOM). Since Greller never included a legend in the book I didn't get the connection until later. Now what you're posted makes sense in regards to the photos in that book. Thanks for clearing up that paradox.
And I'm sure the patents and/or designs being owned by other companies is prehaps the reason we have not seen merchandise at the Transit gift shops sporting images of R-1s, R-33s, R-40s and what have you.
Thanks for the post.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually R-62. Kawasaki is still in business. But I haven't heard much of Westinghouse Amrail for a while? Did it die with Westinghouse? Or was it spun off like WABCO? Changing it's name?
Reminds me of United Parcel Service (UPS) who removes all manufacuture logos from their trucks. From the brown local to the PeterBuilt 18 wheelers.
Yep, although they don't extend that to their trailers any more - I've noticed several trailers with the manufacturer's nameplate on the side.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh, speaking of trademarks and such, that's 'Peterbilt', simply because they can't trademark a 'real' word. Think Flxible.
-Hank :)
As to removal of Manufacturers'logos, WMATA allows no builders logos on equipment. No bus or railcar has a builders logo.
the second ave subway is nothing but a major embezzalment scheme. The total cost should be less than 1 billion dollars for an entire full length line. I have documents but the fbi is too stupid and lazy to investigate
Then publish them here. There's nothing like a public forum to out the truth.
David
[the second ave subway is nothing but a major embezzalment scheme. The total cost should be less than 1 billion dollars for an entire full length line. I have documents but the fbi is too stupid and lazy to investigate]
Sniff! Sniff!! Smell that? Smells like a troll!
-Hank
Ahh! The spirit of William M. Tweed again permeates the air at the Commons.
NOT!
the mta would rather embezzale the funds that they receive Did you know for instance in sept 6 1990 employee mike steinbch suggested how to stop turnstile suckers Then mike steinbch was promptly put under arrest for allegedly using alan kiepppers credit cards Steinbach was taken to district 4 the transit precinct at unioun square The cops didnt even fingerprint him they were so scared of a frivoulous arrest lawsuit
did anyone here know that right after the derailment the mta board charged the federal govt 63 million dollars for emergency aid. What makes this so interesting the transits own figures stated there was only one million in damages. But transit weasnt finished yet They used 1.6 million to hire illegal aliens to fix the signals They did such a good job that several years later there was a nother fatal train wreck on the williamsburg bridge that killed the train operator
That's really interesting. Do you have a source for any of that?
Paul Unfortunately no but you MAY find an article in newsday. I tried reporting this to the MTA inspecter general office but they are so incompetent that even the fbi doesnt want them. Believe me when I say this the fbi is even worse than transit
Of course not. Nobody who did the signal work at Union Square did anything on the Williamsburg Bridge.
fortunately for the public the fact that the mta has not enforced its copywrite means that it has goner into the public domain. Unfortunately those overpaid underworked bastards calling themselves management of the mta dont worry about legalities and willingly bribe judges. There are many examples of them bribing judges Take for example conductor mike stewinbach after his winning a workers comp case they paid off the appeals board so they would dismis his compensation case
Can you prove that? If so that would be an excellant case to take to the media or the Inspector General, the Governor appointed alleged watchdog for the MTA.
I was at the derailment with the NTSB They pointed out to me that there was a broken rail I did not even notice this until they pointed it out to me. At the trial however testimony was entered from various employees that there was no broken rail I dont know if the derailment was caused or not caused by this rail but there was definately there
In what capacity were you at the NTSB investigation?
I don't think there has ever been any dispute that the derailment
was caused by excessive speed over a low-number switch. Perhaps
this broken rail was caused by the derailment.
Thanks for all the response to my last query--here's part two:
Does a design exist for the much-desired underpass between the uptown platform and the IND (always a capital plan away, as someone remarked)? As we know, the difficulty of connecting the three stations is that while the downtown platform extends from Bleecker St. south to Houston St., connecting directly to the IND fare control, the uptown platform runs north from Bleecker St. almost to Great Jones St., away from the IND station. I can imagine three alternatives, in increasing order of desirability and of cost:
1) dig the underpass at Bleecker St., between the two IRT platforms, so that passengers from the uptown would go down, up to the downtown platform, along the length of that platform, and then down to the IND. This seems not just impractical but downright dangerous, since the downtown platform is barely wide enough for the current level of passengers.
2) build the underpass at Houston St., connecting directly to the mezzanine level of the IND station and so keeping passengers for the uptown transfer off the downtown platform, then continue the underpass north (under the sidewalk of Lafayette St.) to the existing uptown platform. This is better, but the passageway would be long and scary, like changing trains at Canal St.; people coming from the north end of the 6 would have to walk about three blocks.
3) close the north end of the uptown platform and extend the platform south instead, to meet the underpass at Houston St. Build a new fare control at the NE corner of Lafayette and Houston, where the underpass comes up, so that exiting IND passengers can go from the underpass to the east side of Lafayette without bumping into the transferring passengers. Not only would this be the most expensive option, but also the most intrusive during construction, since it would close some eastbound lanes of Houston St. as well as some lanes on Lafayette. Still, given that the volume of new passengers at Bleecker will be vast, it seems like the best idea.
I'm betting TA has something more like #2 in mind. Does anyone have a more informed guess?
I agree number 2 being the least practical will probabally be chosen This also gives management the ability to double charge after everyone complains. When I say double charge please take my words liberally since transit charges 10 times whatever they should charge What this means in short is transit can carge 20 times what a simple construction projuct should cost.
[Does a design exist for the much-desired underpass between the uptown platform and the IND (always a capital plan away, as someone remarked)?]
I don't know for sure, but I would suspect that the increasing popularity of unlimited-use MetroCards has pretty much killed off any official enthusiasm that may have existed.
The Metrocards may be popular, but I haven't seen many people making the aboveground transfer. It's no fun fighting your way against the current on the downtown platform when a 6 unloads there, and the light to cross Lafayette is pretty long. I go out of my way to avoid doing it myself. Anyway, for what it's worth, this item is in the 2000-04 capital plan.
I would agree with number 2. The only problem would be the walk. The passengers would have to walk about 2 blocks just to get to the end of the northbound platform.
My understanding is that they intend to extend the northbound platform south to Houston Street and run stairs and escalators down to the IND platforms, via the upper mezzanine east of Lafayette. The upper mezzanine, one filght of stairs down from the street, is on the same level as the one between Broadway and Lafayette with the fair controls and the connection to the downtown Lex local.
Broadway-Lafayette has mezzanines west of Broadway and East of Lafayette, along with slabbed over entrances that were probably never opened. (You can see one on the Houston side of the Puck building just west of Lafayette.) West ones are used for crew space and have stairs with doors in the platforms. I think that the east one is not easily accessible, now that the ramps connecting them to the lower mezzanine between Broadway and Lafayette were removed in the rehab.
The plan also calls for escalators from the downtown Lex platform/upper IND mezzanine level to the platforms. I don't think they are planning on elevators, but this is a costly project. MTA is saying it will be done in the next decade, assuming that there is funding.
By the way, were it not for the employee/technical use of the west mezzanines and whatever space there is on the west end of the middle lower mezzanine, there could easily be a transfer to the Broadway line and Broadway-Lafayette. The BMT Prince Street station probably is with 20 feet of Broadway Lafayette. The platform is around the same level as Bleecker. But, alas, it is considered redundant to 24th Street-Herald Square (IND-BMT), Union Square (BMT-IRT), Jay-Lawrence (IND-BMT, also in the next capital plan), and Atlantic-Pacific (BMT-IRT), and too costly to build given the current use of the space.
[The plan also calls for escalators from the downtown Lex platform/upper IND mezzanine level to the platforms. I don't think they are planning on elevators, but this is a costly project. MTA is saying it will be done in the next decade, assuming that there is funding.]
How can they get away without elevators? What about the handicapped?
[By the way, were it not for the employee/technical use of the west mezzanines and whatever space there is on the west end of the middle lower mezzanine, there could easily be a transfer to the Broadway line and Broadway-Lafayette. The BMT Prince Street station probably is with 20 feet of Broadway Lafayette. The platform is around the same level as Bleecker. But, alas, it is considered redundant to 24th Street-Herald Square (IND-BMT), Union Square (BMT-IRT), Jay-Lawrence (IND-BMT, also in the next capital plan), and Atlantic-Pacific (BMT-IRT), and too costly to build given the current use of the space.]
This gets back to a conversation I had with someone else on another group. Why doesn't the MTA offer free above-ground Metrocard transfers between proximate stations that don't have or can't justify an underground link?
{[The plan also calls for escalators from the downtown Lex platform/upper IND mezzanine level to the platforms. I don't think
they are planning on elevators, but this is a costly project. MTA is saying it will be done in the next decade, assuming that there
is funding.] }
{How can they get away without elevators? What about the handicapped?}
As long a distance as it is from the south end of the uptown Bleeker platform to Houston St., they could build an underpass beneath the IRT tracks, and a ramp up to the platform with a low enough grade to make it wheelchair accessible.
Over the holiday I was happy to travel from my Oregon home back to Newark to take one last ride on the old PCCs (I got #24 both trips). It was, of course, a gas. However, the new fare collection system leaves much to be desired. Say what you will about the old fare-box system, it only took one guy to operate it -- the driver. On my trip, I was asked THREE TIMES on a 12-minute trip to show my ticket. My car had no fewer than two geniuses doing this job, not counting the driver. I can't believe this is cost effective. It was irritating. Still, a good ride.
Over the holiday I was happy to travel from my Oregon home back to Newark to take one last ride on the old PCCs (I got #24 both trips). It was, of course, a gas. However, the new fare collection system leaves much to be desired. Say what you will about the old fare-box system, it only took one guy to operate it -- the driver. On my trip, I was asked THREE TIMES on a 12-minute trip to show my ticket. My car had no fewer than two geniuses doing this job, not counting the driver. I can't believe this is cost effective. It was irritating. Still, a good ride.
What has the Newark City Subway become, a wannabe railroad?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You have to produce your tix on demand. They have agents (not conductors) checking for tix. They won't sell you one but write you a ticket as in FINE.
You just have to do what Thurston does at Branford, put your bass in one of the convention pass holder around your neck. I've seen a lot of monthly LIRR riders do this as sleep the trip away >G<.
Eye get pleasure out of folks asking how I got the "Three Day Pass".
"Eye"
Why do you do that? It's kind of annoying, unless you're talking about sight organs.
It's kind of annoying for you to pick at everyone else's style too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just wanted to know why, just as you can ask me.
It's a kind of exclaimation point & goes back to my days of sending telegrams around to world when I was at Pan AM. We had to use a lot of short hand, e.g. R U w/me ? BTDT ? Sometimes EYE sneak in 1 or 2 just b/c I don't want folks to take me 2 seriously. You'll even see me SHOUT a little, hope you don't mind.
Mr t__;-)
Well, I think that now they have so many in order to show people they mean business about POP. In the future they'll tone down. When I rode the subway on 12/1, I had somebody check my ticket at the top of the steps at Penn, that's it. There were two fare inspectors on board the car who got off at Bloomfield and checked the tickets of people boarding in the front at all those stations between Penn and Bloomfield exclusive. There was nobody at Franklin, and nobody on the return car. The new system lets people board and exit simultaneously (taking advantage of those WIDE PCC doors) and lets people use the back door. Also saves the need to have two stops at many stations, except for Penn and Franklin of course.
Now, does anybody have the answers to my previously posted questions on Newark?
When the new LRVs come in they will have entrances in the center low-floor section only. The train operators will be in a cab (much like the Baltimore LRVs) and won't have anything to do with fare collection.
As for the PCCs, can't NJT give some to Philadelphia so they don't need new cars for route 15, and hence don't have to spend $90000000 for new trolleys that will probably be bad anyway?
The Newark cars are too wide for Philly, besides, some NJ politico has them and all teh parts snared for another project. SEPTA is better off getting new CKD Tatra (Chech Republic)cars, they are specifically designed for old city type operations.
Do you know which NJ Pol it is, as my sources have SFMUNI grabbing everything that NJT doesn't keep for histerical purposes. The SF info came from several sources on both coasts, so must be a smattering of truth in it.
They'd have to be regauged for Philly's wide 5'2.5" gauge track.
If so, they would have to be re-guaged to Philadelphia wide-guage.
I heard from reliable sources, that all the trolleys in Newark have been determined by the State to be historic resources, and can only be disposed of according to a historic resources plan. The translation of this, is that all the equipment must stay in NJ, and now its between two rival groups, one in Philipsburg, the other in Flemington. Their goal is to create a "regional rail museum" along the same lines as Steamtown. A vast amount of money for a tourist attraction is involved, and folks outside of NJ can forget about ever getting their grubby little hands on any equipment or material.
There are too many cars for this to be a reasonable decision.
I hope they get spread around ... some to Steam Town's new trolley opns, some to other museums (that don't already have a PCC) and some to cities that want to start up a trolley line downtown.
Whoever gets them won't have to invest much cash as they're in great shape !
Mr t__:^)
I have heard reports from several sources, both in Newark and SF, that a letter of intent was signed in 1998 between SF Muni and Newark for the purchase of all but two of the Newark PCC cars, including work cars and hulks. (Newark plans to retain one work car, and one operational car had previously been planned for preservation.) One of these sources has also told me that an agreement has since been made between SF Muni and a group in the Twin Cities that will permit one of the operational cars to return home there for preservation as well. Assuming this all comes to pass - and there are some idiots in the New Jersey legislature that would like to scuttle it - we can expect that the public will continue to ride these cars for years to come. (If the legislative idiots have their way, however, the cars will all be sent to storage, ostensibly for preservation in New Jersey, but more likely to become home for vagrants and ultimate destruction.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am wondering where the tracks just before the Manhattan Bridge that dive to the north lead to. On all the track maps I have not seen it. My theory is that it was to connect to the F train after York Street, but then then either funding was cut or something happenned which brought the project to a stop. Then the Christie Street Connection was built and the track was not needed.
Before The Chrystie Street Connection was built, the north side connected to the Broadway Subway and the south connected to the Nassau Street Subway. On the track maps there are 2 tracks that lead to the Manhattan Bridge and stop. Those tracks use to connect to the south side.
My apologies for not specifing that I was talking about the Brooklyn side of the bridge
Are you referring to the Y switch just past the old Myrtle Ave. station as you approach the bridge? That track leads to the south side. The York St. station is directly beneath the bridge approach, IIRC.
Thank you for responding. NO, I am not referring to the Y switch after the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station. I am referring to the switch jsut before the Manhattan Bridge.Anybody can see it if they are in the front car on a slanted B train.
That could be the switch where the bypass tracks and the regular tracks coming from Dekalb merge. That's the last switch before the tracks emerge onto the bridge.
Here's a track map of the area for more detail.
Come on the body and everything looks like the R-62 they jst imporved the seating style and the the wheelchair access. How are they going to use it? The divers part has been imporved. That is the R-142. Just an impovement of the R-62.
These comments evidently refer to the passenger compartment. The "guts" of the car (propulsion, braking, etc.) are NOTHING like the R-62.
David
[Come on the body and everything looks like the R-62 they jst imporved the seating style and the the wheelchair access. How are they going to use it? The divers part has been imporved. That is the R-142. Just an impovement of the R-62.]
New like what is under the car that are totally new.
Come on. AC motors, dynamic, regen braking, all electronically controlled. Plus airbag suspension. What under the cars isn't new? All this should improve comfort, efficiency, and safety.
The question is - what did you expect? What new features SHOULD they have included that they didn't? How SHOULD they have looked? What SHOULD they have changed from the R62?
Every car is a a slight visual improvement over their predecessor. The R-62 is just a shorter R-68 which is like the R-44/46 which is just a longer R-42, which is a R-40 with a modified end, which is an R-38 with a modified end and lower profile windows and changed sign layout, which is an R-32, which is a stainless steel Redbird, which looks the same as any car going back to the R-16. And so on and so forth.
Every car is a a slight visual improvement over their predecessor. The R-62 is just a shorter R-68 which is like the R-44/46 which is just a longer R-42, which is a R-40 with a modified end, which is an R-38 with a modified end and lower profile windows and changed sign layout, which is an R-32, which is a stainless steel Redbird, which looks the same as any car going back to the R-16. And so on and so forth.
The knee bone is connected to the ...
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Come on. AC motors, dynamic, regen braking, all electronically controlled. Plus airbag suspension. What under the cars isn't new? All this should improve comfort, efficiency, and safety.
The question is - what did you expect? What new features SHOULD they have included that they didn't?]
Track brakes, CBTC, provisions for complete video surveillance, and a higher maximum speed? Not sure I like those five car units, either; CBTC will eventually make it feasible to trim the size of trains to save on energy and maintenance or provide more versatile operation, and these seem only moderately adaptable.
Besides everything?
Motors (and ratio of motor cars to trailer cars -- R-62s are all motor cars)
Brakes
Suspension
Trucks
Air Compressor
Climate Control (which is entirely in the ceiling, instead of split between the ceiling and the underbody area as in the R-62 and "standard" subway cars)
Current Conversion
and so on, ad nauseum
[New like what is under the car that are totally new.]
"Motors (and ratio of motor cars to trailer cars -- R-62s are all motor cars)"
Is this why they can run only 9 cars on the #3 lines?
N Broadway Line
One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Nine-car trains are operated on the #3 line because of track length constraints in Lenox Yard. However, it is planned that when additional cars are available (remember, the R-142/142As won't replace all of the Redbirds) some 10-car #3 trains will be operated.
David
["Motors (and ratio of motor cars to trailer cars -- R-62s are all motor cars)"
Is this why they can run only 9 cars on the #3 lines?
N Broadway Line]
Even with a 1 to 1 ratio, the R-142 won't replace the Redbirds. In this case, more R-142s are being delivered than Redbirds being scrapped. The next order will replace the remaining Redbirds, likely 1 to 1.
Just like the R-62 was just an improvement on the R-22 which was just an improved Lo-V. What's your point?
Actually, why haven't they restyled (modernized) the body for the new cars? I think a modern version of the Slant 40's would look great down there.
Hey, at least the red and black front is kind of spiffy. 2000 may only be a few days away, but we still aren't in "the Jetsons" age quite yet. -Nick
Hey, at least the red and black front is kind of spiffy. 2000 may only be a few days away, but we still aren't in "the Jetsons" age quite yet. -Nick
Have you ever seen the huge, clumsy computer that George Jetson operated? He's the one that's behind the times. We have portable phones, big screen TV's. We even have the technology for moving sidewalks. We're just lacking in flying cars and apartment buildings on stilts in the sky.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
We can do the apartment buildings in the sky on stilts, but why? Even with flying cars, it doesn't make much sense unless you want thousands of floors (which means NO stilts). With convenient access in the skylobbies.
Actually, why haven't they restyled (modernized) the body for the new cars? I think a modern version of the Slant 40's would look great down there.
To me, the R-142 looks like a stainless steel modernized version of the redbirds. It has the same shape as the redbirds. Its not a bad-looking car, though. It better be Y2K compliant and it better be running good anti-virus software. Hopefully its running Linux and not Windows. Bill Gates is rich enough.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Arrow III AC traction control system uses Kermit. I have no ideas as to whether it's relavant. When I plugged in the HP palmtop to download traction motor temps or current readings that was the operating system it used. Not being a computer guy I can't say.
The Arrow III AC traction control system uses Kermit.
I'll have to pass that along to Frank DeCruz (the inventor of
Kermit)! To be 100% correct, Kermit is not an operating system.
It's just a terminal emulator program that was running on a
computer to allow it to send and receive characters via the
RS232 serial port.
The R110A's on-board diagnostic computer is running some sort of
embedded DOS...when it was on display at Union Tpke many years
ago I crashed it back to the dos prompt. Too bad, no keyboard!
You crashed the R-110?! HAHAhahahahahahahah! Now THAT's funny!
You crashed the R-110?! HAHAhahahahahahahah! Now THAT's funny!
Who is going to be first to crash an R-142? (its computer, not the train itself!) BTW, I wonder which OS the R-142 is using. DOS is a bit outdated. Maybe UNIX or LINUX.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Kawasakis -- Probably Unix or Linux
Bombardiers -- COBOL or PASCAL, and each motorman gets his own set of operating punchcards.
Kawasakis -- Probably Unix or Linux
Bombardiers -- COBOL or PASCAL, and each motorman gets his own set of operating punchcards.
The Bombardiers arent Y2K compliant then. At the Millennial Rollover, those cars are going to revert to Manhattan gate cars - motors and trailers. Their 'puters will take them back to 1900. The stainless steel will be transformed into wood. Their front route signs will be transformed into marker lights. Ball and pinion RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR sounds.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Right. In other words, their bull and pinion gear teeth turn from helical-cut to spur-cut. You gotta like that!
Alright, I can't resist since this is SLIGHTLY on topic with this discussion. I have to mention how proud I am that I actually got my Linux system up an running yesteray. In fact, it has Internet. I am reading/posting from Linux right now. All I have left to do is set up a Proxy, and I am good to go. :-)
Alright, last time I am mentioning it. I promise. :-)
Passing one of the MetroCard Vans in lower Manhattan this afternoon, I noticed (and purchased) 2 new style Metrocard holders.
They are billed as a "Double-sided MetroCard Holder". I don't plan to open these so for now I will take their word for it.
The holder is not a solid plastic like the previous editions. It is softer an bendable.
The 2 pictures are:
The Honeymooners (1955-56) - a picture of Ralph Cramden (Jackie Gleason) reaching out of the window of bus # 2969 for his lunchbox being offered to him by wife Alice (Audrey Meadows).
Subway Celebrities: Breeze from Lexington Av Local lifts dress 1954
{if you havevn't guessed by now - Marilyn Monroe in that scene from
The Seven Year Itch}.
I don't know if the Museum has these yet but this new series should prove interesting. I wonder if all future holder are going to be in flexible plastic instead of the ones that were "battle tested" in Washington DC.
I have a quesstion will the bombardier R-142's run with the Kamasaki R-142a's? or will they divide the trains like they did the R62's that run on the Woodlawn line and the R62a's that run along the 1,6,9, and on the 3 and the Dyre Avenue line and the shuttle?
The R142s and R142As will probably run on the 2 and 5 lines. There will also be a few cars on the 4 and 6 lines. The redbirds will be retired in order from worst to best as the new cars are put in revenue service. The 4 will get the R62s used on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle at night, give its redbirds to the 239 Street Yard, and they will be replaced with R142s. The 7 will get the R62s. I am not entirely sure whether the R62s will come from the 1/9 or the 3, maybe another SubTalker can help me out here. The better redbirds will spend their last days on the line that gives the R62s to the 7.
i think the Dyre Avenue redbirds should go first, they are the oldest and the most rust covered, they are starting to show their age and the ride is getting rough.the redbirds on the 2 line are a little better but not by much, from what i see the flushing redbirds would be last to be replaced because of the short distance that they operate they could last somewhat longer.The East side Irt is the most traveled line so a lion's share of the R-142's would go to replace all of the Dyre Avenue redbirds because these cars date back to the 50's and look aged and rusted out.The remaining R-142 and R-142A,s would go to the 2 line because its the longest line on the Irt so new cars should go there.The best conditioned redbirds can be split for the woodlawn line for extra equipment and the rush hour Lexington Avenue thru Express.then i would see which redbirds on the flushing line are in good condition keep those and mix in some R-142's
Somebody mentioned a while back that the #6 line will be made completely of R36WF cars after their R62A cars get transferred to the Flushing line. The Flushing redbirds are among the best performing cars in the entire system, and I'd doubt the TA would chance it using new subway cars on the most vital line in the system (#6). If the R142 appears on the #6, I'd guess it would be many years later, when all the bugs have been worked out and they prove they are as reliable as the redbirds.
Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Wrong again..... The #6 will be the 3rd shop to receive R-142s. Right behind E180th St and 239th St.
OK- then what will run on the 7? Will the best redbirds run on the 7 or will R62 (A) from the mainline move to the 7 (Until all redbirds run into the sunset).
Since no car assignments that include the R-142/R-142A have been approved, there is no answer to this question at this time.
David
[OK- then what will run on the 7? Will the best redbirds run on the 7 or will R62 (A) from the mainline move to the 7 (Until all redbirds run into the sunset).]
Most logically, the R-62As from Pelham Shop will be the first to move over to the #7 line along with the 62As from E-180th St. (David's post not withstanding). I think the forthcoming movement of management personnel in the Division of Car Equipment (in the IRT shops) will indicate where the new cars are actually going.
That still doesn't explain where the remaining Redbirds will be placed. Any ideas?
-Stef
My bet is that the 4 and 6 lines will still have redbirds running on it after all the R142/142A cars are delivered.
As a matter of fact, that's a very interesting question. The redbirds will not - cannot be scrapped as the R-142s come on line. If a major defect is found or a major modification is required and the cars must be removed from service, the redbirds will be pressed back into service. This presents 2 major problems:
1) Where to store 600 to 1,000 cars.
2) How to maintain and inspect these cars & keep them service-ready.
I can tell you that cars will be stored through-out the system including B division yards.
They can probably squeeze 50 to 75 cars into Fresh Pond Yard (tracks 10 thru 19).
How about Sunnyside Yard in Queens?????????
Peace Out
David Justiniano
It's been done before. I have seen R-21/22 cars going to scrap stored at Fresh Pond. Go figure.
You could have also stored a lot of those cars on the NYW&B tracks south of the Unionport Yard, if the TA hadn't already ripped up those tracks.
It sounds like there should be some mini-overhauls performed to extend the lives of these cars. If the Hi-Vs ran 50 or so years in service, perhaps some of these Redbirds will survive that long.
Certainly, the oldest of the bunch of cars won't be put out of service until all R142 bugs are worked out, but it will come sooner or later. I just hope the R142s won't have the problems experienced by other cars. I can't see another R46 fiasco occurring.
Lastly, would it be advantageous to keep the remaining Redbirds to one line rather than spreading them out (depending on how many are left, say 320 cars upon complete R142 delivery or even the new cars meeting all expectations)? As a Superintendent of a Yard, would you have objections to housing all old cars?
-Stef
Technically, the shop superintendent manages the maintenance facility. The yard belongs to Rapid transit Operations (RTO). In terms of car capacity, Concourse yard is larger than any other maintenance shop yard in the system and space is at a premium on the weekends. It is clear that where-ever the redbirds are stored, main line layups will be necessary.
I think that the idea of a mini overhaul would not be considered. The idea is to scrap these cars ASAP. The only maintenance these cars will get is that which will keep them service-ready.
I know exactly what the TA will do in the case of a major problem with the new cars. They will buy back the cars from Naporano's at a loss, just as they did with the R10 cars scrapped in the early eighties. There was one R10 that was detrucked in Greenville, then retrucked, shipped back via Cross Harbor, then scrapped a final time. Remember the brand new radio brackets installed on retired R17s? What does MTA stand for???
Money Thrown Away!
What does MTA stand for???
Much Trouble Abounds.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What does BMT stand for: Barely Moving Trains.
Yesh, especially if they are R68s.....o>
wayne
What does BMT stand for: Barely Moving Trains
No, it stands for:
BETTER
METROPOLITAN
TRANSIT
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
M.T.A. - Money Thrown Away
More Trouble Ahead
Anything to add ?
Bill Newkirk
More Torture Ahead
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I went railfanning last nite in the first time for a while. While waiting at rockaway park for the shuttle back, I noticed someone wrote in concrete on the platform "MTA More Trouble Ahead." while Ive seen this slogan all over subtalk, I didnt think it was a rallying cry of sorts. How popular is this acronym among TA workers? Also, for how long has anger been directed at the MTA as opposed to the TA? Thanks --Kevin.
I always thought that MTA meant "Moving Thugs Around".
You were railfanning on the Rockaway Shuttle at night? That takes guts.
You were railfanning on the Rockaway Shuttle at night? That takes guts.
Have the Rockaways really gotten that bad over the last 20-25 years?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes. Even the "safe" area around the Beach 116th St. terminal has gone downhill.
People keep talking about certain Redbirds being from the '50s. You guys make it sound like they're the R-17's or the R-21/22's. We're talking about the R-26/28's from 1959-1960. These are the IRT cousins of the R-27/30's from 1960-1962.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As per the 2001 being the 'real' millenium, cars from 1959 and 1960 are 'cars from the 50's.
-Hank :)
1960 is not in the 50s. It is however in the 196th decade.
They're also about fourty years old and not getting any better.
They're also about fourty years old and not getting any better.
Why do so many people hate old equipment? If its any comfort to you, soon they'll be gone :-(
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those 40 year old cars are still outperforming cars half their age. If it wasn't for rust, the redbirds could run for another 50 years, minimum.
I'm just hoping they save the R36WF cars. They are my favorite redbirds, and riding them conjurs up thoughts of me and my late father going to Met games when I was a kid.
Those 40 year old cars are still outperforming cars half their age. If it wasn't for rust, the redbirds could run for another 50 years, minimum.
I'm just hoping they save the R36WF cars. They are my favorite redbirds, and riding them conjurs up thoughts of me and my late father going to Met games when I was a kid.
They are on what used to be one of my home lines. I lived closer to Woodhaven Blvd. on the Queens IND (1/2 mile), but I was only a mile from Junction Blvd. on the 7 and used it quite often. Of course, they weren't redbirds then. They were in their original WF colors. I don't want to see those cars go either.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I love those Redbirds as well, and will be sad to see them go. But as they say, nothing lasts forever.
Why do so many MORE people hate new cars? I see plenty of R-142 bashing going on even though nobody has ever experienced them. But bashing the Redbirds? Sacrilege!
Why do so many MORE people hate new cars? I see plenty of R-142 bashing going on even though nobody has ever experienced them. But bashing the Redbirds? Sacrilege!
Its the nostalgia issue. A lot of us railfans seem to appreciate the old stuff more because we know that it won't be around much longer, whereas the modern stuff will be around for a long time. Also, we have our fond memories. The redbirds are the coveted cars of today. Back when the R-1/9's were being scrapped, noone could give a s--t about the R-26/28, R-29/33 or R-36. It was the R-1/9's that were the coveted cars. Then it was the R-10's, R-12/14 and 15's, then the R-17/21/22's, then the R-27's. I wasn't in town, so I really don't know if any tears were shed for the R-16's. Just like the R-9, the R-36 is the end of asn era. The R-9 was the last pre-war car, the last AMUE. The R-36 is the last carbon steel car. Noone wants to see it go. The System will be kind of drab with all stainless steel equipment, and nothing red.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I couldn't agree more. Although I sometimes with BMT Lines and Chris R about their fanaticism of the old els I am In 100% agreement with them about the old equipment, especially pre war. I loved the R1-9's, BMT Standards, pre war LIRR MU's, etc. Although I never really rode Low/Hi-V's other than the World's Fair ones on the Bronx Third Av I'm sure I would have loved them too. Hell, I'm probably the only one in this forum that would rather ride the '55 old MU's on the diesel lines than the bitri-levels!!!
I couldn't agree more. Although I sometimes with BMT Lines and Chris R about their fanaticism of the old els I am In 100%
agreement with them about the old equipment, especially pre war. I loved the R1-9's, BMT Standards, pre war LIRR MU's,
etc. Although I never really rode Low/Hi-V's other than the World's Fair ones on the Bronx Third Av I'm sure I would have
loved them too. Hell, I'm probably the only one in this forum that would rather ride the '55 old MU's on the diesel lines than the
bitri-levels!!!
You're not the only one. You have company. I'll take the old MU also.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You've never even been on the the bi-level!
Here, here. The R-1/9s bring back many, many fond memories. I've even grown to appreciate the BMT standards, even though I didn't care for them when I rode on them on the Canarsie. I would give ANYTHING to have ridden on the Triplexes when they were still around. There were a lot of tears shed by Brooklynites when their phaseout began. I still say that the decision to retire the Triplexes when they were still in tip-top shape was an unpardonable blunder.
Reread Chris R's post, Those (Redbirds) aren't just subway cars to him, they're reminders of pleasent trips to Shea Stadium to watch baseball with his dad. The old familiar things that we all knew as kids are priceless to us as adults. For example, I used to hang around the Erie Lackawanna RR as a teenager (about your age, BTW) and struck up a friendship with the train crews and was taught how to run the GP7Ls (GP7 with a 6BL air brake) that inhabited the area. I still am in contact with the friends I made 25 years ago but I very much miss the ones who have passed away and regret the fact that all of the units were scrapped. Someday, you'll understand. SUPPORT RAIL EQUIPMENT PRESERVATION
Reread Chris R's post, Those (Redbirds) aren't just subway cars to him, they're reminders of pleasent trips to Shea Stadium to
watch baseball with his dad. The old familiar things that we all knew as kids are priceless to us as adults. For example, I used
to hang around the Erie Lackawanna RR as a teenager (about your age, BTW) and struck up a friendship with the train crews
and was taught how to run the GP7Ls (GP7 with a 6BL air brake) that inhabited the area. I still am in contact with the friends I
made 25 years ago but I very much miss the ones who have passed away and regret the fact that all of the units were scrapped.
Someday, you'll understand. SUPPORT RAIL EQUIPMENT PRESERVATION
The younger railfans will understand the nostalgia issue when they look back on their childhood memories on cars that are going to the scrap yard. Especially when the cars going to the scrap yard are cars that they remember being placed into service brand new as a kid. I was raised on the A/B's and D-Types. Then, I saw the R-27/30's, R-29/33, 33/36, 32, 38, 40Slant, 40M, 42, 44 and 46 go into service. I have very fond memories on R-27's, R-32's, R-33/36's, R-1/9's, A/B's, D-Types. It hurt to see the A/B's and D-Types go, then again with the R-1/9's. I left NYC in 1980, so I didn't see anything else go, but I was sad when I found out that all the R-Type equipment prior to 1959 had gone and that the R-27 was on its way out. The R-27's were the first cars that I remember brand spanking new, in their olive drab exterior paint, with the blue/grey interiors. Factory paint on the interior was something new to me. The R-27's were the first BMT cars to have fiberglass seats and to have longitudinal seating like the IRT. To me, they looked so modern, with their arch roofs. I saw R-27's before I saw R-16's. As a small child, I wasn't too acquainted with the IRT. I rode Lo-V's twice or three times in service in the early 1960's. I don't really remember the R-26/28's going into service. BTW, I'm 45. Now its the redbirds that are about to be scrapped. I have good memories on the R-36's. I remember those cars brand new going to the World's Fair. Then, when I moved to Queens, I found myself on the Flushing Line quite a bit, even though I was closer to the IND. I guess this is my favorite saying: "You know you're getting old when subway cars that you remember brand new are going to be scrapped". I know 45 isn't "old", but face it, my youth is gone. In 17 years, Ill be drawing Social Security, if there's anything left in the fund. All the old equipment reminds me of my youth. this is something that the very young railfans really can't grasp yet.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I just discovered this site which is wonderful. However, I keep reading that the mainline IRT will get the R142's not the Flushing line. Is this information correct? If so, I think it's a disgrace!
The Flushing Line needs new cars ASAP the redbirds are starting to breakdown frequently. As a rider on this line it would be nice to ride in a state-of-art train like the R142 not some used trains, from the mainline. Maybe MTA should assign some of R142's to the Flushing line during rush hour to see how they perform. If they breakdown at least MTA can correct the manner instantly on this line.
Also Mr. Rocker,the Alanta Braves Player one of his punishments should be made to ride the the 7 line 100 times for his stupid immature statement. This way he will get the know the people he offended.
The mainline Redbirds are worse than the R-36. The only reason the 7 is going to get anything to replace the R-36 is to get rid of those pesky singles (DIE DIE DIE!). Since you are a #7 rider your opinion on what cars the 7 should get should not be taken seriously since it is biased. Everybody wants the good cars.
The mainline Redbirds are worse than the R-36. The only reason the 7 is going to get anything to replace the R-36 is to get rid of those pesky singles (DIE DIE DIE!). Since you are a #7 rider your opinion on what cars the 7 should get should not be taken seriously since it is biased. Everybody wants the good cars.
The Flushing Line always got the newest IRT cars - 1938 WF, R-12, R-15, R-36. I don't blame those people for not wanting the hand-me-downs from the mainlines.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There was a good reason for assigning new equipment to the Flushing line. Cars from the WF Lo-Vs on had a different door arrangement than the original vestibule rolling stock, and their doors would not line up with the original gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry. Modifications were made during the 50s in anticipation of new mainline equipment.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion! The Flushing line is running old equipment from the 1960's. The line is the pride of the IRT and named an "Historial Line". The Redbirds are great however, it was always a tradition that line got brand new cars not "hand me downs". It's time for something new.
As of this afternoon, no fleet assignments involving R-142 and/or R-142A equipment have been approved. Speculate all you want, folks, but nobody will be right yet because there is no assignment yet!
David
Everyone is entitled to their opinion! The Flushing line is running old equipment from the 1960's. The line is the pride of the IRT and named an "Historial Line". The Redbirds are great however, it was always a tradition that line got brand new cars not "hand me downs". It's time for something new.
I said that somewhere on this board today, practically word for word. I'll add to it. The Flushing Line has always gotten the brand new IRT equipment - 1938 WF, R-12, R-15, R-36. The Flushing Line should have gotten the brand new R-62's also, and now that the R-142's are out, those R-62's that should have been on the Flushing Line should be transferred to the mainlines and the R-142 sent to where the latest IRT equipment belongs - the 7 Line.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
12/30/99
Mr.Reason,
Your hatred for the R-33 singles is quite unique. But bear in mind, these are the only transit cars that have axiflow ceiling fans since the Philly's Market-Franford cars were retired. It could be worse, what if the single 33's had OGEE roofs with R-12 fans! Those fans couldn't blow out a candle!
Bill Newkirk
Were those the little fans that graced the R10? Geesh, those things were absolutley worthless at cooling the interior of the car and only contributed to the deafening roar the R10 made anyway. A summer ride on an R10, with it's storm door latched open and these fans on was surely a recipe for ringing ears when you reached your destination and got off the train.
You mean I'm the only one here who likes air conditioning?
You mean I'm the only one here who likes air conditioning?
No. If you lived where I live, you would understand why I run my home A/C 24/7/365. But you're the only one who wants to see good functioning subway cars scrapped because they have no A/C. One of Chicago's late model el car types has no A/C. Cars with no A/C are not the end of the world.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those must be the 3200s. All of the other L cars currently in service have A/C, AFAIK.
Aren't the 3200s the newest cars?
Going back to Lo-V days: New cars went to the West Side lines first and the Lo-V cars finished their life on the Lex. We novw move to ther R62 era: they appeared first on the West side and then some on the East side.
The R142 will replace redbird cars. Therefore here is what I see: They will go on the 2 and the R62 on the 3 and 4 will go the the 7 line. The best of the redbirds will go the mainline to replace the R62 cars.
This is only opinion and not official info.
Better yet: make Rocker tough it out on a WF R-33.
I know they run redbirds on the 4 line, will they be replaced by the R-142 or the R-142a?
The 4 will be full of R-142's if they move those R-62's to the the 7 . If not the R-62's will stay and the redbirds will be replaced by the R-142's. little and big brother together. The 4 deserves the best because it is the best line in the IRT
thats why the 32s should remain on the 4 !!!
R-32s have never run on the #4. They've run on the N, which is the successor to the #4 Sea Beach (R-32s are BMT-IND cars, not IRT cars).
David
[thats why the 32s should remain on the 4 !!!]
N successor to the 4 I do not think so and I think that the N lives up to it's name the Never. When it comes it is always packed even through it has a lot of support. The 4,5,6 are the online on the east side so the 4,5,6 is the best cause it can hadle the crows with quick service. Like some other lines if you know what I mean.
Christopher Rivera
"They've run on the N, which is the successor to the #4"
The route now known as "N" (at least the part between Coney Island and Times Square) was called "#4" in BMT days. It has NOTHING do do with current IRT route #4.
David
["They've run on the N, which is the successor to the #4"]
Right David and let's keep the R32's on the "N". I'm glad you remembered that the Sea Beach was the #4 train before the TA screwed things up and gave it to the interloper Jerome-Woodlawn Line which always seems to have derailments and, worse, it goes by Yukko Yankee Stadium. To me the new no.4 is and always will be a fraud. I will always remember the Sea Beach as the #4 train. In fact, on my desktop I have a picture of an R-11 #4 Sea Beach Train at Kings Highway on January 24, 1970, my wife's birthday. The Sea Beach carried that number for the first time since 1964, but I'm told it ended about a month or two later. Of course, I should tell no one that "N" has always been my favorite letter because I've always been a Navy fan in football. But not too loud, the TA probably has a bunch of
army rooters and next I know the "N" train will be changed to the Z or X train, or something like that.
Hey Fred, I was wondering about you. My desk top is a Triplex Brighton Exp on a Fan Trip at Kings Highway Train Marked 1
No, if the R-62 from the 4 doesn't go to the 7, then the 4 will most likely get R-62As so it will be all R-62.
Any Redbirds that are running are subject to replacement by the new fleet. If anything is to happen, I'd say the last Redbirds will be on the 2. With 320 cars to remain, the line is the most logical place to have the last old cars. They happen to be on the line at the present time, so why move them around? I'd expect a few R142 sets to be on the line to fill in service gaps. R33s will probably be the last soldiers standing being that they were the last to receive the GOH on the IRT in 1991.
-Stef
Furthermore, I think that after the retirements of the old fleet, management may opt to keep the remaining active Redbirds to one line.
-Stef
The #5 has the oldest redbirds (R26-29). Some of those date to the 1950's. I'd say they would be the first to go.
Right!!!! They are among the groups of cars giving in to elements. You can see the sides starting to crumble unfortunately...... The R33s on the other hand, are probably among the best fleets that I have seen this far (cosmetically and mechanically) and should be able to continue on with little difficulty for several more years.
-Stef
I've always thought that the last Redbirds should be sent to the 3 if rusting is a problem, since it has the least amount of outdoor trackage of any of the IRT's major lines. But it wouldn't surprise me if they end up in the Pelham yard.
The problem with that idea is that the #3 uses 9 car trains, and using redbirds on this line would require the retention of the R33 singles, which have already been slated as the first redbirds to be retired.
I think the #1 would be the ideal line for them. The locked transverse cabs on the present R62 fleet assigned to the #1/9 line always traps a few people who don't understand that only the front 5 cars of the train open at South Ferry. The redbirds would'nt have this problem, as you can walk back and forth, from front to back.
Some conductors let you walk through the cab. They round you up into car 6 while waiting for entry to SF, then once they've opened the doors, let you through the cab. I was on one of these in car 7 (I was returning uptown, old seat trick).
While what you say makes sense, since the 180 Street shop, which was rebuilt from the ground up just for the R-142 is accessible to the #2 and #5, then they will probably have all R-142. In addition, since the 2 runs the entire length of it's line at all times, they wouldn't want to run those old trains there. The 5 is shorter off-hours, and that gives old cars that it might use a needed rest. The 5 thing contradicts what I said above, so maybe it'll be the 1 (no OH 9) or 6 (no OH express).
I'm not certain of things to come. As it turns out, the 5 was the last route to have old cars (R17,21,22) prior to completion of the R62A delivery. Once all R62As were in, and a number of IRT cars underwent GOH, the last old cars were retired, February 29, 1988 (R17s).
The reason I say the R33s will remain on the 2 has to do with E180th St Shop. E180th St Shop primarily serves the 5, while 239th St sevres the 2. If you put 239th St R33s on the 5, then there will be numerous lite trains running out of the yard needlessly just to serve the Dyre Av line, and not making any stops on White Plains Rd which is the line that the yard connects to. Logistically, it would make no sense to have a yard of trains serving one line, but travelling on an entirely different line. If you put R33s at the East, then that defeats the purpose for rebuilding the shop. In order to make the 2 effectively R142, might I suggest swapping terminals, and this could improve operations? Then again, we could see the 239th Yard serve all R142s and the Redbirds would have to find some other place to go.
With the R26,28,29s as the oldest cars on the 5, they should be replaced by the newer equipment.
-Stef
Stef makes a good point. Historically the oldest cars are assigned to the lines which do not run full time,therby reducing wear and tear on the equiptment. The 5 and possible the 3 could see the last of the Redbirds. It would be possible to do this on the 3 by using the R-33S from the 7 Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Rush hour 5 trains, specifically.
You may be right about the Redbirds operating on the 3, but it seems unlikely right now that the R33 Singles would come into service on the Mainline. They may be operationally reliable, but certain folks wouldn't favor having units without AC. Do you know of any instances where the R33 singles have picked up passengers on the Mainline IRT?
-Stef
Stef: I can't really think of any. The R-33 S were always required for service on the #7. The only time that they came off was for the GOH. BTW I do remember that the Lo-V's (an early dependable version of the Redbirds) spent there last few months on the #3, that is as far as the mainline service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
what is a R 33 S ?? what does the ""S"" mean???
and did i see other r redbird types on the flushing # 7 ???
i think the wondows give them away as to who they are ?!!
R33S are R33 Singles. They have operating positions in both corners
like the FLUSHING # 7 TRAIN MUSEUM IN THE TRANSIT MUSEUM
right ???? i saw it in the transit museum still painted
a pretty light blue color !!
The #7 train runs 11 car trains, the R-36 type car used for service on the 7 is set up in pairs, all the cars have half the equipment and they share with their "mate." In order to allow 11 car trains, a train that can run alone and has all the equipment is needed for each train. This is the R-33S. When air conditioning was added, the married pairs had enough room for the units, however since the single contained ALL the equipment needed to run on it's own, there was no room for the air conditioner and the cars to this day continue to be "hot." They are ALWAYS the third car from the Queens end when 11 car trains are run. In the summer, the TA tries to avoid running them, leaving the 7 with 10 car trains. During off-hours, the 7 runs 8 car trains, also without them.
Most NYC subway cars are what they refer to as "married pairs" . In order to operate a subway car needs mechanicals such as compressor (for brakes), converter, etc. A married pair is cheaper because the mechanicals are split between the two cars. Even cars are "males" and Odd Cars are" Females" (As the museum says " females are odd")
The R62 and R62A were ordered as singles (meaning each car could run by itself) and so were the R78 and R68A. However they have since been joined into four car sets ( only one compressor in each set of four cars). I am sure Steve can go into further detail.
Suffice for me to say that the married cars have been linked togther with drawbars rather than couplers.
Historically- singles were bought when maintenance was a problem( only 1 car down instead of 2) and married cars when maintenance is good.
The first cars ordered as married pairs (R-26, R-27, R-28, and R-30) had couplers at the blind ends. The R-26s and R-28s received drawbars during GOH. Not sure about the R-27/30s.
That's the one.
The singles could have been as good as the R-36 WF, if they had taken all of the propulsion equipment out and they'd become trailers. Then, there'd be room for air conditioning. As for using them as the head car in transport to Coney Island, other cars can have the double trippers.
what's to stop management from running the 2's out of 180th street. I remember the 5's used to run R33's exclusively (under the car number there was a black sticker signifying 239st yard) and the 2's had the crappy R26,28,29s (with the green 180th st. stickers)
No, I think you have it mixed up. Prior to the equipment swap in 1995, black stickered R33s were located out of 180th St while green stickered R26,28, and 29s were located out of 239th St. Cars on the 2 can come out of 180th St, and they occasionally do, as there wouldn't be a loss in service. The 5 on the otherhand, is a different story. I just can't see the 239th St becoming exclusively 5 if it were to keep the old cars on it's line. The 5 doesn't even make the stops on White Plains Rd with the exception of a few rush hour trains. The Rush Hour 5s can lay up at 239th St or go back south either light, or as a 2, since rush hour service only runs in peak direction. Terminal swaps could become necessary to keep equipment assigned to a particular yard. The B and the C swapped terminals in March of 1998, so Concourse Yard could exclusively have R68s.
R33s to the 5? If this is their last stand, then they'd better run out of 241 St.
-Stef
-Stef
I stand corrected.
I've heard that they will be replaced by the R62s on the Dyre Shuttle. The redbirds on the 4 will be replaced by R142s on the 5.
12/28/99
Let's all remember that the East 180th st shop was overhauled specifically for the R-142's. Any fleets now served by East 180th St will be replaced frist by R-142's.
Bill Newkirk
That makes sense. My guess is that the 5 will be first, because it has the oldest redbirds in the fleet.
I need some suggestions regarding the next walk, A WABC Channel 7 Cameraman got in contact with me to see if I am interested in having news coverage and/or professional videotaping done on the walking tour. I told him I would post the question here and see the general feeling of those who plan to go. So....... Please contact me at: Mark618@webtv.net or post here and let me know your feelings regarding this or any questions you have.
Thanks in advance,
Mark W.
I'd be leery of it - not out of any distrust of ABC news but because of what might happen as a result. Technically, we're trespassing, and if it made the news we (1) stand a much higher risk of getting in trouble and (2) risk having other sites secured so we can't explore.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You have a point, otherwise I would be for the cameraman...give fellow subtalkers and our fellow webmaster some publicity, not a bad idea there. When is the next walk scheduled for? I will be there if I can. -Nick
Sunday, 16 January 2000. Check the Upcoming Events link at the top of the SubTalk index for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is a good point. Perhaps you could have media coverage of a more, err, "legal" get-together. Like the feild-trips. That would give the publicity that I think we all want, and protect the participants from the law.
My two cents...
Ummmm, how did this channel 7 cameraman get in touch with you?
--Mark
Mark's a celebrity...don't you know. He's appeared in magazine
spreads obscenely covered in subway trinkets....recently he
had a cameo on The People's Court along with Auggie. :)
"This is the plaintiff..........."
Perhaps Ch. 7 can do the legwork in securing the proper permission to be there, to get around the trespassing issue...
-Dave
Excellent idea, Dave - maybe they can. And it's far enough from City Hall that Hizzoner shouldn't raise any objections ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My question exactly!!
Why invite the press? Are you trying to attain something? On an ego trip, perhaps? Best leave well enough alone. In fact, perhaps postpone the next walk, now that the media knows; Lord knows who else knows.
Your pictures have been gotten. I'd hate to see this site COMPLETELY
obliterated by the nasty powers that be.
Aren't there "historians" around that can be contacted to conduct a "sanctioned" walk? I dare say that even if this were possible, the permission could be denied and the site destroyed. For some reason, some MTA folk want to wipe out anything that existed prior to the 1980's!
I have doubts that the MTA would allow any type of venture into the tunnel. In fact, I'm more concerned that if they learn of our plans they will make sure the tunnel entrance is one again sealed.
... assuming they own the tunnel.
I don't even know how to figure out who "owns" it, but someone's got to. I'm surprised it isn't inspected periodically like the 2nd Ave tunnels are. (or maybe it is, and we just don't know about it).
--Mark
I don't even know how to figure out who "owns" it, but someone's got to. I'm surprised it isn't inspected periodically like the 2nd Ave tunnels are. (or maybe it is, and we just don't know about it).
--Mark
I don't think the PG Shuttle property comes under TA jurisdiction anymore. I think their jurisdiction ended when the Shuttle was abandoned. A good guess is that the City owns it and that jurisdiction comes under some City agency.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Someone on the original trip (12/19) said that neither the City nor the MTA claims it - that each says the other owns it. I don't know whether this is true or not.
Actually, the City of New York is the official owner of the whole subway system, so I guess that includes the shuttle tunnel. The MTA operates the system, but since operation on this segment has ceased, there is no longer an operator, so the underlying owner - the City - should be in control.
Which raises the question - who owned the PG shuttle, and the Third Ave. El between Fordham and White Plains Roads, during the years prior to unification? The City owned the "subway", but the "els" were owned by the Manhattan Railway Co. and leased to the IRT. The City did not have title to the "els". At least not those built prior to the subway. But the two segments mentioned above were built after the subways were in operation. My guess is the City had title to the underlying structures. Which would mean that the structure of the Third Ave. El switched from Manhattan Railway Co. to NY City ownership at Fordham Rd.
Another question regarding the PG shuttle tunnel is the fact that it is a tunnel which passes beneath various parcels of property. The deeds to the properties above presumably contain(ed) easements giving the City the right to run trains below. So the question arises, were these easements perpetual? Or did they run only so long as the train service was operated? If the latter, than the various sections of tunnel are actually "owned" by whoever owns the properties above them.
Finally, as to tresspassing: NY State law specifies that, to be guilty of tresspassing, one must ignore notice from the owner of a property or his/her authorized representative to keep off or leave the said property. Since there were no "No Tresspassing" signs posted at the shuttle, and no one told us to leave, presumably the legal offense of tresspassing did not occur.
Someone on the original trip (12/19) said that neither the City nor the MTA claims it - that each says the other owns it. I don't know whether this is true or not.
Actually, the City of New York is the official owner of the whole subway system, so I guess that includes the shuttle tunnel. The MTA operates the system, but since operation on this segment has ceased, there is no longer an operator, so the underlying owner - the City - should be in control.
Which raises the question - who owned the PG shuttle, and the Third Ave. El between Fordham and White Plains Roads, during the years prior to unification? The City owned the "subway", but the "els" were owned by the Manhattan Railway Co. and leased to the IRT. The City did not have title to the "els". At least not those built prior to the subway. But the two segments mentioned above were built after the subways were in operation. My guess is the City had title to the underlying structures. Which would mean that the structure of the Third Ave. El switched from Manhattan Railway Co. to NY City ownership at Fordham Rd.
Another question regarding the PG shuttle tunnel is the fact that it is a tunnel which passes beneath various parcels of property. The deeds to the properties above presumably contain(ed) easements giving the City the right to run trains below. So the question arises, were these easements perpetual? Or did they run only so long as the train service was operated? If the latter, than the various sections of tunnel are actually "owned" by whoever owns the properties above them.
Finally, as to tresspassing: NY State law specifies that, to be guilty of tresspassing, one must ignore notice from the owner of a property or his/her authorized representative to keep off or leave the said property. Since there were no "No Tresspassing" signs posted at the shuttle, and no one told us to leave, presumably the legal offense of tresspassing did not occur.
Valid points. Definitely food for thought. I would think that the City would own the property, even though they won't admit to it. Some City agency has jurisdiction over it. The big question is which one? The IRT owned the property until unification. Then the City took ownership of it. The Transit Authority relinquished jurisdiction over it when it was abandoned, but the city still owns it. That is what happened with all the els that were demolished. The TA relinquished ownership and jurisdiction. The City (I forgot which department) was then responsible for demolition. In this case, there was no demolition, except for the spur leading off the Jerome Ave. Line to Anderson Ave. along with the concrete viaduct that Jerome-Anderson station rested on. Also, 155th St. station and the bridge. As for the tresspassing issue, nobody will be charged with tresspassing, but if the City already knows about the upcoming Shuttle Tour, they will probably have a police officer at each of the 2 stations turning people away. It wouldn't surprise me if the City eliminates all traces of the Shuttle and permanently seals up the tunnel because of all this publicity. Think about it. The City doesn't want members of the public venturing onto property that is a safety hazard. If anyone gets hurt or killed, they know they will be liable in court. That is exactly why no agency is willing to claim ownership of the property. They will want to discourage any further exploration of the abandoned property. OTOH, knowing how long it takes the City to get anything done, we'll all be dead and gone before they do anything. Its future generations of railfans that won't get a chance to se the Shuttle. if you're right about the easments and that each section of the tunnel is owned by the owners of the properties above them, then nothing will ever be done, as these slumlords couldn't care less about a tunnel under their properties.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[re ownership of the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel]
If oil were discovered in the tunnel, both the City and the MTA would claim to own it. If someone were injured in the tunnel and threatened a lawsuit, the City and the MTA each would claim that the other owned it.
If oil were discovered in the tunnel, both the City and the MTA would claim to own it. If someone were injured in the tunnel and threatened a lawsuit, the City and the MTA each would claim that the other owned it.
Words of gold!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
When did they start in NYC? It seemed to get really bad around 1973 looking at the pictures here..any earlier dates? Thats still at least 10 years before the filth took off down here.
Anthony Leith
Sydney NSW Australia
When did they start in NYC? It seemed to get really bad around 1973 looking at the pictures here..any earlier dates? Thats still at least 10 years before the filth
took off down here.
Anthony Leith
Sydney NSW Australia
[When did they start in NYC? It seemed to get really bad around 1973 looking at the pictures here..any earlier dates? Thats still at least 10 years before the filth took off down here.]
Early 1970s, more or less. Once subway graffiti started, it spread quite rapidly, so by 1973 most or even all cars had been "tagged."
Yeah, but no one is taking out the graffiti between stations. It is so bad there, most of the original walls cannot be seen. They even put graffiti up in the new wall between 36th St and Queens Plaza. This is while the are workers in that area almost around the clock!
Yeah, but no one is taking out the graffiti between stations. It is so bad there, most of the original walls cannot be seen. They even put graffiti up in the new wall between 36th St and Queens Plaza. This is while the are workers in that area almost around the clock!
Graffiti on tunnel walls is nothing new. While NY morons were defacing subway cars in the 1970's, Philadelphia morons were defacing the tunnel walls along the BSS.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The graffiti problem was always there; however, prior to the 1970s, it was sporadic and usually didn't consist of anything more than a scribble with a pen or pencil. It escalated to epidemic proportions in 1972 or thereabouts, and included shoe polish and ultimately spray paint.
And when did the NYCTA start to get serious about cleaning it up? Has it only been since Mayor Giuliani or have I got my facts wrong and is the NYCTA operated by the state of New York?
Actually, they got serious with the appointment of David Gunn as president of the TA in 1984. He pledged a completely clean system by 1988, and mostly succeeded.
-Hank
So the graffiti is now for the most part under control....how safe is it to ride the subway and what rules should someone like myself from Sydney double up on...ie whats best things to be vigilant about?
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
Common sense is the best rule when riding the subway. Don't do it late at night; be careful any time, especially during rush hours; and most importantly, don't look like a tourist. Know where you want to go before you board. And, of course, follow the first rule of www.nycsubway.org - ride in the first car, preferably one with a railfan window!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whats the best way to take pictures of the subway? Would you recommend using a disposable camera? Or is it best to photograph on the surface lines?
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
You won't get decent pictures in the subway with a disposable. We had a thread on this a few weeks ago, but here's a summary of recommendations, do's and don't, etc.
DO: Use high-speed film. ASA 800 for color prints is my recommendation. If (like me) you have to have color slides, use the highest-speed Kodachrome you can find (ASA 200). You'll want to make sure you can get it processed when you get home, however, since getting it processed here will take time and Kodachrome processing isn't the same as other slide films.
DON'T: Use flash when a train is in the station or entering it. The flash can cause temporary blindness for the motorman (or conductor, for that matter). If a station agent or police see you doing this you will be escorted from the station and may be arrested. Taking a picture of the train is OK as long as you're not using flash.
DON'T: Take a picture of an occupied booth. While there's no specific prohibition, the agent will probably find some excuse to have you removed from the premises - "security" or some such. It's not worth it.
DON'T: Use a tripod, or otherwise position yourself to be an obstruction to the normal flow of traffic. That will also get you evicted.
DO: Take pictures of the elevated, on the elevated, from the elevated. Some of the most scenic vistas in the city are up there. Unfortunately, they've put up solid walls on most el platforms so it's somewhat harder to find good photo spots than it used to be.
And most importantly, enjoy!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What are the safest areas of the system to take pictures in...ie which are the more likely stations that you would get mugged for your camera and other stuff and which ones arent?
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
Mugging in the subway is declining, fortunately. I'll let others make specific recommendations, but during daylight hours I've only felt threatened one time, and that was on the 2 going to Flatbush Avenue (although I'm rather uncomfortable around Grand Concourse on the Lex also). I sometimes carry a camera, BUT it's my trusty pocket Minolta - good for snapshots, not for serious photography, and I carry it in a case that straps tightly around my neck and under one arm - since I look like a leftover hippie anyway no one gives it much thought. During the winter months I might try wearing a photo vest under a ski jacket but even then I'd want to be travelling with someone else who could serve as a lookout. Others in this group are more daring than I and may offer you different advice - in any event, many of them ride the subway more frequently than I do and will certainly have a more up-to-date perspective on specific locations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anthony,
From Sydney let me tell you briefly about my ten days in NY last October: no problems but follow some of the advice on Subtalk. There are places which might be avoided but generally I found the subways great and safe. When I tripped on a step going up, with camera around my neck, two people immediately come to my aid - one a cop.
I got to the 1 line terminal, 242nd St, Coney Island, Flushing on the 7 (twice - its wonderful), and 241st St - no problems, plus plenty of local travelling and a visit to the Museum - its really worth it - check if it is still open as there were plans to close for renovation.
BUT, keep your eyes open, watch out. I was approched once on the 7 when a man commented about my 'nice' camera, so I retreated to the front door of the front car (where else) and he wandered off.
Don't stand near platform edges until trains arrive and keep looking about. Look at current Subtalk comments on photography - they are very good - I took colour shots at 400ASA with NO flash and they mainly came out well.
And if you say you come from Australia, you might get a ride around the six line terminal at City Hall - no lights are on but its just the experience.
Have a good time. Its a great system.
It's a good idea to have someone with you when taking pictures, as was previously mentioned. Being aware of your surroundings is a good idea as well. When I photographed the original "DOWN TOWN EXPRESS TRAINS" sign at Times Square, I had to wait until the crowd in that area thinned out. It wasn't until after three express trains had come and gone that I felt comfortable enough to take the shot. When you have a Nikon SLR, you don't want to flaunt it in a crowd, especially if you're alone.
One other thing: keep your wallet anywhere except in a hip pocket. An inside jacket pocket is your best bet, or a money belt, or a combination of both.
One other thing: keep your wallet anywhere except in a hip pocket. An inside jacket pocket is your best bet, or a money belt, or a combination of both.
Is all of that caution really necessaery?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Caution necessary?)
It's a question of odds.
Chances are you could get on the subway wearing gold chains, and fall asleep, and nothing would happen -- that time. But if you did it often enough, sooner or later you'd be robbed. It's like keeping your front door unlocked, or riding without a seatbelt. You could do it 10,000 times and not have a problem, but if your number came up and your laziness hurt you you'd really regret it.
How important is that wallet? I keep it in the front pocket, and don't carry anything with my address (so someone can't get my keys and beat me back to the house). I've been mugged once in all my years in NYC (1986), and lost $5. Other people are less careful, and have never been mugged -- and they'd rather not worry about things then avoid one theft every couple of decades.
(Caution necessary?)
It's a question of odds.
Chances are you could get on the subway wearing gold chains, and fall asleep, and nothing would happen -- that time. But if you did it often enough, sooner or later you'd be robbed. It's like keeping your front door unlocked, or riding without a seatbelt. You could do it 10,000 times and not have a problem, but if your number came up and your laziness hurt you you'd really regret it.
How important is that wallet? I keep it in the front pocket, and don't carry anything with my address (so someone can't get my keys and beat me back to the house). I've been mugged once in all my years in NYC (1986), and lost $5. Other people are less careful, and have never been mugged -- and they'd rather not worry about things then avoid one theft every couple of decades.
I'm not suggesting doing anything blatant, just going about ones business without overreacting and being overly paranoid. We can't live in glass bubbles. A little sensible caution is OK. I always carried my wallet in my front pants pocket, but my ID is inside. You talk about not carrying anything in your wallet with your address on it? What about your driver's license? If you tell me that you don't drive, what about the many that do? If you suggest leaving the driver's license in the car, there's more chance of a theif getting hold of it that way, by breaking into the car, than getting mugged on foot. BTW, I've been mugged twice, had my car stolen once and had my apartment broken into once, all in New York City. You better believe I take caution wisely, but I can't be looking over my shoulder, overtaken by paranoia. Look at the precautions that Rudy is taking for the New Years Eve Celebration at Times Square this year because of the possibility of terrorism - securing the manhole covers, sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings. I think he's overreacting a bit. If any terrorists want to do any maiming and killing, they're not going to let Rudy's sharpshooters get in their way. But, like I said, you can't live in a glass bubble.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Address -- Do you carry your drivers license?)
Not on the subway. I have two wallets -- a subway wallet with a Metrocard, and a weekend wallet with a driver's license.
Not on the subway. I have two wallets -- a subway wallet with a Metrocard, and a weekend wallet with a driver's license.
Not a bad idea! Just don't get them mixed up and take the wrong one. BTW, I'd love to see the expression on a police officer's face if he stops you and asks for your license and you hand him a metrocard instead! I bet it would be priceless!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Uhm, so, how do you expect to be identified god forbid something happens to you? My girlfreind used to never carry her ID with her at all, but I finally browbeat her into doing it. Besides the difficulty in getting into bars, I asked her how they would tell her mom what hospital she was lying unconcious in.
-Hank
And what if you're stopped by cops for whatever reason?
[Look at the precautions that Rudy is taking for the New Years Eve
Celebration at Times Square this year because of the possibility of terrorism - securing the manhole covers, sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings. I think he's overreacting a bit. If any terrorists want
to do any maiming and killing, they're not going to let Rudy's sharpshooters get in their way. But, like I said, you can't live in a glass bubble.]
Seattle officials went overboard - they cancelled the planned celebrations outright, citing security fears. I was quite pleased to read that Mayor Giuliani mildly chastised the Seattle officials for their (over)reaction. He sensibly pointed out that while precautions can and should be taken, some risk will still exist, but that's okay as life can never be made totally risk free. Hey, look at it this way, 100 years from now (50 for most of us, I suspect) all of us will be, as the French say, eating dandelions by the root. Making life totally risk free ain't gonna change that.
Seattle officials went overboard - they cancelled the planned celebrations outright, citing security fears. I was quite pleased to read that Mayor Giuliani mildly chastised the Seattle officials for their (over)reaction. He sensibly pointed out that while precautions can and should be taken, some risk will still exist, but that's okay as life can never be made totally risk free. Hey, look at it this way, 100 years from now (50 for most of us, I suspect) all of us will be, as the French say, eating dandelions by the root. Making life totally risk free ain't gonna change that.
They had good reason to cancel the Seattle celebration. A known terrorist was caught over there. The authorities have every reason to believe that something evil was being planned over there. I could see if a known terrorist was caught planning something in NY, but Rudy has no basis for it.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
How do you know we'll all be dead in 100 years? One of the teen subtalkers (like me) could live to be in their 110s, which seems a lot more possible with the medical technologies that could be available through the next century.
I will not rule out celebrating the new century - The 22nd.
Did anyone ever think how immortality can f##k up the pension system!!!
So people would retire, use up their money and then start a new career.
I Live in PASADENA CALIFORNIA where we still have been
lied to
about THE BLUE LINE RAIL project!!
we have this dopey rose bowl game and rose parade !!!!
most of us who live here cant wait unitl ......
THIS WHOLE DAMMED THING IS COMPLETELY OVER !!!
and all of those strange people go home and away from us just like you stay away from times square and dont go !!!
and you have a SUBWAY TO GET YOU THERE AND BACK !!!!!!!
I Live in PASADENA CALIFORNIA where we still have been
lied to
about THE BLUE LINE RAIL project!!
we have this dopey rose bowl game and rose parade !!!!
most of us who live here cant wait unitl ......
THIS WHOLE DAMMED THING IS COMPLETELY OVER !!!
and all of those strange people go home and away from us just like you stay away from times square and dont go !!!
and you have a SUBWAY TO GET YOU THERE AND BACK !!!!!!!
I Live in PASADENA CALIFORNIA where we still have been
lied to
about THE BLUE LINE RAIL project!!
we have this dopey rose bowl game and rose parade !!!!
most of us who live here cant wait unitl ......
THIS WHOLE DAMMED THING IS COMPLETELY OVER !!!
and all of those strange people go home and away from us just like you stay away from times square and dont go !!!
and you have a SUBWAY TO GET YOU THERE AND BACK !!!!!!!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch.... Rudy still won't allow passengers to go around City Hall Loop. Go figure.
I had my pocket picked on the subway once. Luckily, whoever did it wound up with a subway map and nothing else, as I wasn't carrying a wallet. I'm not about to push my luck.
Of course, you could carry a wallet full of play money in a hip pocket as a decoy. And throw in a note with "sucker" written on it for good measure.:)
I had my pocket picked on the subway once. Luckily, whoever did it wound up with a subway map and nothing else, as I wasn't carrying a wallet. I'm not about to push my luck.
Of course, you could carry a wallet full of play money in a hip pocket as a decoy. And throw in a note with "sucker" written on it for good measure.:)
The thief would probably pick your pocket again and put it back! :-)
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I almost forgot to mention this very important aspect of NYCT railfanning:
If at all possible, DO NOT use an automatic focusing camera when shooting through the popular railfan window. Many of them have scratchiti, nicks or other surface imperfections that will make your camera focus on the window in the foreground and you will end up with totally useless out of focus images. Believe me, as an owner of one of those 35mm automatic cameras it has ruined many a trip for me.
The best camera to use is an 35mm SEMI-automatic SLR that will give you the freedom of controlling the overall quality of your photographic subjects.
Doug aka BMTman
I use a Canon WP-1 Sure Shot camera. When shooting from the rail fan window, I usually shut off the flash and put the lens right up against the window glass after first finding a spot which has few or no imperfections. I've had pretty decent results using this technique, even while the train is in motion.
Kodak Gold Max 400 Film used exclusively.
Wayne
thats what i use !!!! kodak 400 speed and my sony 8 mm vidieo
camcorder tr 86 focus lock automatic off and wide angle lens
my 35 mm camera lens is 24 and 24 panorama and regular
it seems that RAILFAN SHOTS come out the best when you have
at least a 28 24 mm or WIDER LENS for wide view !!!
i used a dark towell around my lens of my camcorder to block off the subway cars light glare back....
the only complaint i have is SOME RAILFAN WINDOWS scratched up
and or dirty and unclean and SPOTTED UP !!!
how did your REDBIRD SHOTS come out with KODAK 400 ??
I SHOOT THE LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM HERE IN LA KODAK 400!!
Have you tried a polarizing filter to kill the glare.
Most of my shots from the rail fan window were taken in two locations:
1) along the Brighton Express run from the windows of Slant R40 "Q" trains...
2) along the elevated portions of the Canarsie Line, again most of them from the windows of SlantR40 "L" trains.
Back on October 27 I shot five pictures in fairly rapid succession as we rounded the S Curve northbound out of Sutter Avenue aboard Slant R40 #4414. All came out quite well, including one where we were just about to cross under the abandoned Pitkin El structure. I was able to position the camera direcly over an unscratched part of the window then held it fast by leaning against it.
My Redbird shots came out pretty well, but only if the sun was cooperating, otherwise they seemed to wash/glare out some. This is true of most outdoor shots if the sun is extremely bright.
My camera has a 32mm lens, in 1:3.5 ratio.
Wayne
man!! that Q line can be Q Q Quite beautiful in many spots
IS A MUST FOR VIDIEO AND PHOTO opp.
roosevelt island bridge shots and he lets seeif i spell it right
the brightion line to the finish !!!!!
I like to take a picture of a lumbering R68 "D" train as we overtake it aboard our flying "Q" express. A few of my shots of March 15, 1999, with new snow on the ground, were taken on this stretch, as we motored northbound at 45MPH, R40 #4314 in the lead. The Slants can really move when asked to.
Wayne
Wayne and I were both snapping away furiously along that stretch on the L. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten my photos developed yet. The Franklin Ave. shuttle pics turned out well, though.
When shooting from the rail fan window, I usually shut off the flash and put the lens right up against the window glass after first
finding a spot which has few or no imperfections.
Exactly what I do when I take video. Results are usually quite good.
--Mark
i had the same results last november 1999 !!!!!!
especially my vidieo !!!!
I always enjoy surface (or elevated) lines for great photographs. Mostly because in most cases you won't have to use flash. But also because they have some excellent views and scenery.
Since I'm partial to anything in Brooklyn (I have to live up to my name after all), I highly recommend the following stations for some GREAT pictures:
(1) Broadway-East New York station of the L train (Canarsie Line). I suggest the forward end of the platform. It gives a sweeping view of the city to the west and the impressive steel structure to the south and east. Also, riding the L train all the way to the last stop (Rockaway Parkway) gives you a flavor -- with a little imagery -- of the lines' rural roots.
(2) Smith-Ninth Street station of the F (Culver) line. Again, good shots of the Manhattan skyline can be achieved there, besides the massive concrete el structure.
(3) Almost any location on the Brighton Line (D and Q trains) from Prospect Park south to Coney Island.
(4) The West End Line (B train) is a line that is elevated south from the 9th Ave. station.
(5) The SeaBeach Line (N train) has many of the same appealing qualities as the Brighton Line
I think that you will be fairly safe anywhere on the system so long as you are not riding the lines on off hours (midnight, early morning hours, etc.). And of course, don't have a trillion cameras dangling from around your neck. That spells 'e-a-s-y t-a-r-g-e-t' for any crook who's out looking for a quick dollar.
Doug aka BMTman
BMT MAN!! i had ( last november ) vidieo camera and tripod
plus fanny pack and BACKPACK and still camera arouind my neck
and carried them everywhere i whent day and night
my favorite # 7 line A LINE
plus 2 5 7 A N E Q and found them all to have good
vidieo plus smapshot and railfan shots DAY AND NIGHT !!!
the transit police did not bother me and no body else !!
YOU GOT LUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BMT-MAN!! i had ( last november ) vidieo camera and tripod
plus fanny pack and BACKPACK and still camera arouind my neck
and carried them everywhere i whent day and night
my favorite # 7 line A LINE
plus 2 5 7 A N E Q and found them all to have good
vidieo plus smapshot and railfan shots DAY AND NIGHT !!!
the transit police did not bother me and no body else !!
Don't venture close to the edge of the platform. Broadway-Nassau Station on the "A" and "C" lines is especially dangerous as the third rail is right beneath it.
And if you're looking for good railfan windows, go for Redbirds on the #2, #4, #5, #6, and #7 lines and best of all, the Slant R40s on the "L", "N" and "Q" lines. R32s ("C", "E", "N", "R" lines) and R38s ("A" and "C" lines) also have great railfan windows. So do R40Ms and R42s ("J", "L" and "M" lines).
Wayne
Correction, Anon_e_mouse: that's RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;-)
And while you're at it take the LIRR Main Line out to Hicksville and back. If the engineer has the cab door closed you get a great railfan window view, with speed and railroad crossings.
The mid to late 1980's was a big turning point in the war against graffiti. The R-62, R-62A, R-68 (and later the R-68A) were new and being kept clean. Some car classes were being re-built and others rec'd paint jobs. I can remember in the early 1980's when the only graffiti free cars were those R-46's assigned to the JFK Express.
Wayne
And back in the 70s, the only clean cars were the ones on the 42nd St. shuttle.
Peter: BRAVO!
As for the tresspassing issue, nobody will be charged with tresspassing, but if the City already knows about the upcoming Shuttle Tour, they will probably have a police officer at each of
the 2 stations turning people away. It wouldn't surprise me if the City eliminates all traces of the Shuttle and permanently seals up the tunnel because of all this publicity. Think about it. The City
doesn't want members of the public venturing onto property that is a safety hazard. If anyone gets hurt or killed, they know they will be liable in court. That is exactly why no agency is willing to claim
ownership of the property. They will want to discourage any further exploration of the abandoned property.
It is probably best if we stop talking about it already. We know that this web site gets "hits" from the MTA offices, so someone there surely knows about our plans. They may not really care, but may feel "obligated" to act if we don't tone it down. As for kids "wandering" into the tunnel, it really is difficult to get to in the first place. No one is going to wind up there by accident, you need to make a concerted effort to get there.
Whether anyone from NYC offices (other than Larry Littlefield) is reading this site I don't know, but certainly the more we keep talking about this, the greater the chance of official interference. If it hasn't happened already. So let's drop the subject for the next two weeks or so.
It is probably best if we stop talking about it already. We know that this web site gets "hits" from the MTA offices, so someone there surely knows about our plans. They may not really care, but may feel "obligated" to act if we don't tone it down. As for kids "wandering" into the tunnel, it really is difficult to get to in the first place. No one is going to wind up there by accident, you need to make a concerted effort to get there.
Whether anyone from NYC offices (other than Larry Littlefield) is reading this site I don't know, but certainly the more we keep talking about this, the greater the chance of official interference. If it hasn't happened already. So let's drop the subject for the next two weeks or so.
Don't worry so much about the MTA. They have nothing to do with the tunnel. They haven't since 1958. As for kids wandering into the tunnel, who do you think put the graffiti on the walls at both stations in the first place? Mark W. already told us that the tunnel is the property of those who own the buildings above it, and not the City, or the TA. He said that the tunnel is fair game. Just go ahead with whoever else is going on 1/16 and enjoy!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
if you're right about the easments and that each section of the tunnel is owned by the owners of the properties above them, then nothing will ever be done, as these slumlords couldn't care less about a tunnel under their properties.
You think they know?
--Mark
You think they know?
--Mark
I don't know if they know. If they do, they don't care. The tunnel is useless to them anyway. Its not like each building can use it for storage space. To do that would involve more money than its worth.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It might be more likely that if they know that the tunnel exists they believe it still belongs to the MTA or city.
In April, 1994, I walked the length of the abandoned Canarsie trolley ROW from Seaview Avenue to the current subway terminal on Rockaway Parkway. Much of the ROW became driveways and alleys and was easily nagivable on foot. What struck me was that a vacant parcel of land far removed from current trackage (I think the block bounded by Glenwood Road, Conklin Avenue, Rockaway Parkway and East 96th Street) was fenced off with signs reading "TA PROPERTY-NO TRESPASSING", or something to that effect. The location of this may be inaccurate due to the passage of time, but I'm sure Doug or others would know the precise location.
I find that strange because by no stretch of the imagination could this land be used for ANY purpose by the TA. It's separated from the subway and bus terminal by at least one busy street and numerous stores. It's right in the path of the ROW, but nothing's run there since 1942(?). Yet, the TA claims ownership and erects fencing. Are there some plans we don't know about?
Clearly, there were no official attempts to make the Polo Grounds shuttle inaccessible than what was seen on the tour.
We saw that very same sign during our excursion last October. It's exactly where you describe it; in fact, I took a picture of it.
Hey Howard, good to see you back at the boards.
Regarding the abandoned trolley ROW (aka the original Canarsie RR ROW): those first two blocks of it going south from Glenwood Road are completely bare and as such are used by the big Knights of Columbus hall (that abuts the line) that is on Conklin Ave. There is a sign on the fence of the former ROW that states that only members of the hall can park their cars in there. I am assuming that the KOC have either bought or are renting the space from the NYCT. (Otherwise maybe they have taken 'finder's/keeper's' possession of the land once it fell into disuse and the TA didn't give a hoot about it?)
The only thing NYCT could possibly use the limited available ROW for -- if they still legally own it -- would include parking for the Canarsie Yard/Rockaway Pkwy terminal workers, or the Bus Driver's personal vehicles.
Doug aka BMTman
(What Canarsie Trolley ROW could be used for).
Could be used for a park-n-ride. NYCTA has not park-'n-ride facilities at its outer stations -- a real loss for those in places like Dyker Heights and Marine Park.
Regarding a 'Park-n-Ride' type setup for subway use: The Canarsie lines' Rockaway Parkway terminal station has a large municipal parking lot that is not nearly ever filled. This would be an ideal place for a 'Park-'n-Ride' as the lot already has a direct MetroCard-friendly entrance/exist on the northend platform.
Doug aka BMTman
I have doubts that the MTA would allow any type of venture into the tunnel. In fact, I'm more concerned that if they learn of our plans they will make sure the tunnel entrance is one again sealed.
The tunnel was sealed at both ends when I did my walking tour in 1974. I didn't get into the tunnel like you guys did a couple of weeks ago. I was surprised to say the least, that both ends of the tunnel were accessible. The tunnel entrance at Sedgwick was tinned over and the "doorway" at Jerome-Anderson was bricked over.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
telling/asking the MTA? just go by the old saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it!!
My question exactly!!
Why invite the press? Are you trying to attain something? On an ego trip, perhaps? Best leave well enough alone. In fact, perhaps postpone the next walk, now that the media knows; Lord knows who else knows.
Your pictures have been gotten. I'd hate to see this site COMPLETELY
obliterated by the nasty powers that be.
Aren't there "historians" around that can be contacted to conduct a "sanctioned" walk? I dare say that even if this were possible, the permission could be denied and the site destroyed. For some reason, some MTA folk want to wipe out anything that existed prior to the 1980's!
I agree totally. To discourage any further exploration, the City might just wipe out any trace of the stations and permanently seal off the tunnel. If that happened, it would serve the publicity seekers right. This is something that should have been kept quiet. Communication should have been through e-mail, not on a public board that is accessible world-wide. In 1974, 6 of us got together and decided to tour the remains of the Shuttle. There was no public announcement. We just did it. Of course, there was no Internet either.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
After thinking about it, I believe the WABC cameraman should accompany any tours in which we're not entering tunnels that are considered off limits, ie. he should go with us on trips other than the shuttle trip...
Hey everyone,
You're hitting the nail right on the head if you think inviting that cameraman along would be trouble. Just look at today's article in the NY POST concerning their notice to cottage industry subway model makers and similar businesses. How Petty! Best believe if the MTA finds out, not only will they promptly close off and seal anything like the Polo Grounds shuttle from further exploration, they might seek to have everyone arrested for trespassing!
Oh sorry, knowing the MTA they won't have you arrested for trespass, you'll probably be charged with farebeating, in that you did not pay to enter "their" shuttle line! Never mind if you tell them the line is abandoned, they'll just tell you there is a minor delay in service, maybe even tell you its because of congestion ahead!
Hey everyone,
You're hitting the nail right on the head if you think inviting that cameraman along would be trouble. Just look at today's article in the NY POST concerning their notice to cottage industry subway model makers and similar businesses. How Petty! Best believe if the MTA finds out, not only will they promptly close off and seal anything like the Polo Grounds shuttle from further exploration, they might seek to have everyone arrested for trespassing!
Oh sorry, knowing the MTA they won't have you arrested for trespass, you'll probably be charged with farebeating, in that you did not pay to enter "their" shuttle line! Never mind if you tell them the line is abandoned, they'll just tell you there is a minor delay in service, maybe even tell you its because of congestion ahead!
Yeah, and the congestion won't clear up until the fog in their heads clears up. Right now in the empty heads of the TA honchos, the fog is so dense (like they are), that visibility is zero, same as their IQ's. As for it being their shuttle, I doubt it. Since it was abandoned, I don't think its TA property anymore. Its probably city property. There is no physical connection to anything that's part of the Transit System anymore. Even the mice (both computer mice and tunnel mice) are aware of that; and you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
> Best believe if the MTA finds out, not only will they promptly close
> off and seal anything like the Polo Grounds shuttle
You think they don't already know? It's not like this web site is a secret...
-Dave
Seems to me that I remember a while back, when I was asking if there was any way for someone to access the abandoned IRT station at 18th St. on the East Side, Dave made a post saying that there are reasons these places are offlimits and that noone should try to access them without "official" guidance.
Guess that only applies when its not something that you want to do, Dave? By your own words, shouldnt you be telling people not to go on the Polo Grounds Shuttle tours without permission from the MTA? Trespassing is still trespassing even when it's something you want to do.
Seems to me you're trying to have it both ways.
[Seems to me that I remember a while back, when I was asking if there was any way for someone to access the abandoned IRT station at 18th St. on the East Side, Dave made a post saying that there are reasons these places are offlimits and that noone should try to access them without "official" guidance.
Guess that only applies when its not something that you want to do, Dave? By your own words, shouldnt you be telling people not to go on the Polo Grounds Shuttle tours without permission from the MTA? Trespassing is still trespassing even when it's something you want to do.]
Well, it seems to me that there are degrees of trespassing. Trying to enter an abandoned underground station on an active subway line is a lot more dangerous than walking through a completely abandoned tunnel in (relatively) plain sight. Just getting into the 18th Street station would require some sort of forced entry and/or walking along the active Lexington line. None of that would be necessary for entry into the Polo Grounds tunnel.
[Seems to me that I remember a while back, when I was asking if there was any way for someone to access the abandoned IRT station at 18th St. on the East Side, Dave made a post saying that there are reasons these places are offlimits and that noone should try to access them without "official" guidance.
Guess that only applies when its not something that you want to do, Dave? By your own words, shouldnt you be telling people not to go on the Polo Grounds Shuttle tours without permission from the MTA? Trespassing is still trespassing even when it's something you want to do.]
Well, it seems to me that there are degrees of trespassing. Trying to enter an abandoned underground station on an active subway line is a lot more dangerous than walking through a completely abandoned tunnel in (relatively) plain sight. Just getting into the 18th Street station would require some sort of forced entry and/or walking along the active Lexington line. None of that would be necessary for entry into the Polo Grounds tunnel.
Tresspassing is tersspassing. It may be more dangerous to access the 18th St. station than the PG Shuttle, but the PG Shuttle can be dangerous enough. Besides like I said, tresspassing is tresspassing. Its like being pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[[Well, it seems to me that there are degrees of trespassing. Trying to enter an abandoned underground station on an active subway line is a lot more dangerous than walking through a completely abandoned tunnel in (relatively) plain sight. Just getting into the 18th Street station would require some sort of forced entry and/or walking along the active Lexington line. None of that would be necessary for entry into the Polo Grounds tunnel.]
[Tresspassing is tersspassing. It may be more dangerous to access the 18th St. station than the PG Shuttle, but the PG Shuttle can be dangerous enough. Besides like I said, tresspassing is tresspassing. Its like being pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't]
Without getting into the nuances of trespassing law, I stand by my viewpoint that there is a difference. While I wasn't able to participate in the Polo Grounds Shuttle tour (I'm sure going to try to be at the next one!), it's my understanding that the tunnel entrance was right there in the open, clearly abandoned, and not fenced off or posted with "No Trespassing" signs. No one even seems to know who owns it today. Moreover, it could be entered without any "breaking" element and with relatively little physical risk.
Contrast that with the abandoned 18th Street IRT station. All entrances have been sealed off except for a locked trap door on the SE corner of 18th Street and Park Avenue South. Gaining entry would require either breaking the lock and opening the trap door - something that's obviously illegal - or walking through the tunnel from the 14th Street station - something that's both obviously illegal and very dangerous. Hardly the same situation at all.
The difference comes into play in court. When I was growing up we had an in-ground pool. The gates on the fence were secured by hasps with long gutter spikes in them. You couldn't open them unless you were tall enough to reach over the fence and manipulate the gutter spike out of the lock. Once while we were on vacation a bunch of neighborhood kids jumped the fence and went swimming. On our return we got the Sheriff involved. He explained that it would be almost impossible to make the charges hold up in court, since There were not actual LOCKS on the gates and There were not any "No Trespassing" signs.
I don't see how they could bring charges against people visiting the PG tunnel.
Having completed two walking tours of a portion of the LIRR's sporadically used Bay Ridge Line within a year, I must agree with Peter.
Although the line is owned by the LIRR and leased to the New York & Altantic Railway, my walks were conducted on weekends when there is no normal frieght traffic on the ROW. Further, there are no signs posted by either govnerning parties stating anything about the lines' ownership and/or trespassing notices. Also, the evidence of homeless persons having lived (or living) on the ROW also indicates a lassee-fare attitude by the lines' owners. And lastly, there is a local Federal Park Ranger who is known to have lead a number of "walking tours" through the Bay Ridge ROW on his own w/o anyone's authorization.
However, I am aware of the dangers and legal hassles that can arise from conducting a tour w/o the authorization of some governing authority on any active rail line. I do not condone anything like an "18th Street" tour. The Polo Grounds tour was a completely abandoned structure w/o any functioning features. That is the difference.
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry. I still don't see the difference between "tresspassing" and "tresspassing".
Either it is, or it isn't.
The reason I had originally brought up the 18th St. Station was that I walked by the Park Ave South and 18th St. grating entrance one day and was astounded to not only find the street grating unlocked, but the stairs ungated--anyone could have just moseyed down there.
I will not deny that one may have more danger than the Polo Grounds tour--but my original point here was that Dave has stated on multiple occasions that he will not allow Subtalk to be used for discussion of illegal activity--and this discussion of illegal activity--which the Polo Grounds Shuttle Tours certainly are, at LEAST technically--is not only being allowed but encouraged.
If I were a real shitheel, I'd remind the MTA that you guys are planning this, and it might be a good idea to secure the sites or have some police over there.
I'm not the kind of person to do that...but I wouldnt shed too many tears if someone did.
Dave's attitude in this matter--"its ok if its illegal if i like it"--is a huge piece of hypocrisy.
Dave's attitude in this matter--"its ok if its illegal if i like it"--is a huge piece of hypocrisy.
But he is the site's landlord. It is his alone to make the rules. You don't have to like them, but if you want to "hang out" here, you have to live with them.
--Mark
You misunderstand me. I am not arguing that Dave does not have the right to set the rules for his website; all I wanted to do was to point out the hypocrisy in his attitude regarding the Polo Grounds Shuttle trips.
If someone tried to post a thread about a proposed expedition to the 18th St. IRT...I bet Dave would kill the thread faster than you can say "Subtalk." Yet the Polo Grounds trips are just as illegal, just as much a violation of the law.
All I wanted to do was to shed some light on the fact that illegal conduct seems to be OK by Dave if he approves of it.
If someone tried to post a thread about a proposed expedition to the 18th St. IRT...I bet Dave would kill the thread faster than
you can say "Subtalk."
Anyone would have to be crazy to have a walking tour of 18th St. Having a stop at an abandoned station on a fan trip is one thing, but walking subway tunnels with a live third rail and trains whizzing by is rubber room time.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
> Seems to me you're trying to have it both ways.
Yup, you're right.
-Dave
As someone speaking from the position of experience with this kind of thing, if you keep going back there, and telling people about it, all your doing is setting yourselves up to be caught and crucified.
If you get publicity, they will:
1. Track down who ever is caught on tape and lock you up for trespassing, and maybe some other things.
2. Close up that place so no one ever gets in again.
3. The whole experience will turn you off to your hobby, and maybe get you an arrest record for your efforts.
Your opening up a can of worms for these people, ranging from "why was it closed up" to "is it safe". No City worker wants to deal with these things.
If you do go back, DONT TELL ANYONE ELSE.
You won't get an arrest record for tresspassing. Tresspassing is a violation (as opposed to a felony or misdemeaner). It is pretty much the same as a traffic summons. Violations are also by law (criminal procedure law) discretionary. In other words its perfectly legal for a cop to just give you a warning. This is different from Felonies & Misdemeaners where they MUST arrest. By the way, tresspassing is different from "criminal tresspass" which is in an enclosed premise, that is a misdemaner. Criminal Tresspass with the intent to commit a crime therein is Burglary, a felony. However the Polo Grounds Tunnel cannot be construed a premise by any stretch of the imagination.
You won't get an arrest record for tresspassing. Tresspassing is a violation (as opposed to a felony or misdemeaner). It is pretty much the same as a traffic summons. Violations are also by law (criminal procedure law) discretionary. In other words its perfectly legal for a cop to just give you a warning. This is different from Felonies & Misdemeaners where they MUST arrest. By the way, tresspassing is different from "criminal tresspass" which is in an enclosed premise, that is a misdemaner. Criminal Tresspass with the intent to commit a crime therein is Burglary, a felony. However the Polo Grounds Tunnel cannot be construed a premise by any stretch of the imagination.
Yeah. What are you going to steal? A rusted out signal housing? The Woodycrest Ave. sign? Somebody ought to take the Woodycrest Ave. sign on the 16th.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The sign is painted on the tunnel wall.
Bring a chisel and cut out that section of the wall.
BINGO!!!!!
Bring a chisel and cut out that section of the wall.
Hey, people have sections of the Berlin Wall. Why not have a section of the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel wall?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Ok all who responded feel the way I do. I'll let him know.......Mark W.
Seems to me there are 2 possibilities involved with publicizing the walk-
(1)Publicizing it may create more public buzz and excitement for subway preservation and education efforts, donations to the Transit Museum, and maybe even, dare it be said out loud, the Mayor allowing those behind the scenes tours and programs to resume and flourish.
(2)The MTA, now aware of this activity due to a report on channel 7 (let's not flatter ourselves - how many people read this web site as opposed to how many watch channel 7 news) is on notice of what the negligence lawyers call an "attractive nuisance". Now anyone injured there has easy grounds to sue the MTA for big bucks.(kind of like notifying the city that there is a crack in the sidewalk - once that occurs, anyone injured in that spot after the notification may sue the city for negligence)
To then allow the properties to remain accessible would be foolish on the part of the MTA - they would have to either repair everything so it is safe, or close it all off so no-one can enter.
The cynic in me says that #2 is more likely than #1, so we should save the TV coverage for another time.
The cynic in me says that #2 is more likely than #1, so we should save the TV coverage for another time.
You're right about #2. If #1 actually occurred, I would faint, probably hit my head on something while falling and wind up in Emergency.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I hope you all feel better after reading this
1) As for news coverage, It's cancelled
2) The Office of City Planning says the tunnel is "fair game". Paperwork shows the curent owners are the persons whose proerty sits above the tunnel
3) The city knows all about the tunnel. fter al they did close the chop shop which once operated there. (Which DID make the news)
Look, The city can not legally seal it because one, It is not a crime scene, and two, they DO NOT own it. Those worried about being arrested for tresspassing, DON'T GO. The tunnel is open, there is NO signs, and most likely the "owners" don't even know they own it!!!! (If they did,I'm sure they would be subletting)
I hope you all feel better after reading this
1) As for news coverage, It's cancelled
2) The Office of City Planning says the tunnel is "fair game". Paperwork shows the curent owners are the persons whose proerty sits above the tunnel
3) The city knows all about the tunnel. fter al they did close the chop shop which once operated there. (Which DID make the news)
Look, The city can not legally seal it because one, It is not a crime scene, and two, they DO NOT own it. Those worried about being arrested for tresspassing, DON'T GO. The tunnel is open, there is NO signs, and most likely the "owners" don't even know they own it!!!! (If they did,I'm sure they would be subletting)
I believe what you're saying. You evidently did your homework. But, if the tunnel can't be sealed, then why was it sealed 25 years ago? I have pictorial evidence of this, at least at Jerome-Anderson, where the doorway leading from the platform to the tunnel was bricked up. I don't have pictorial evidence of the tunnel being sealed at Sedgwick, but it was. It was tinned over. There was no doorway there 25 years ago. The entire tunnel entrance (both tracks) was covered with sheet steel wide and high enough to seal off the entire tunnel entrance (both tracks).
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It is possible that the tunnel was sealed when it was abandoned or soon after.
But, if the tunnel can't be sealed, then why was it sealed 25 years ago? I have pictorial evidence of this ...
It can be sealed, obviously, since it was, probably as an agreement between the TA, the City and maybe the property owners above the line. The question is who pays for it? According to Mark W, it would be up to the property owners ABOVE the tunnel to pay for it, since the Office of City Planning says they own it. Think they're gonna pay for it? Not a chance!
--Mark
It can be sealed, obviously, since it was, probably as an agreement between the TA, the City and maybe the property owners above the line. The question is who pays for it? According to Mark W, it would be up to the property owners ABOVE the tunnel to pay for it, since the Office of City Planning says they own it. Think they're gonna pay for it? Not a chance!
--Mark
Those cheap slumlords won't even pay to upgrade their properties above the tunnel. They're not going to pay a dime for anything regarding a tunnel that is useless to them and generates no income for them.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If the tunnel is fair game, then what's wrong with the coverage?
Because we're still treading on thin ice, legally. I think we're OK, therefore I'm still planning to go, but I'd rather not have a lot of attention drawn to it by putting it in the news.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
12/29/99
"if the tunnel is fair game, then what's wrong with the coverage?"
I was on the 12/19 tour, and didn't plan on the tunnel being open. I though at worst it would be fenced off. But of course it was open. What I liked about it was the fact that we came, we saw, we photgraphed AND LEFT. In and out 1-2-3 !! We don't need attention including the circus atmosphere news media. I mean, what will we gain by seeing ourselves on television? Landmark status? The TA donating a pair of Redbirds and old track panels and run the train as a tourist operation?
Just like on 12/19 only a "Pearl Harbor" sneek attack, then leave will suffice. If you don't agree with me, I would love to hear from you here.
Bill Newkirk
No, I do agree with you. News media often brings nothing but grief.
As many of you know, I'm active in the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
Aside from Stef, who is active at Branford (Shore Line) and Eric, who is at TMNY, who else is also involved with the preservation part of the movement?
I was active at Shoreline as a teenager with my father, but since joining Navy,stationed too far away to be involved.
I am involved in the restoration and re-activation of trolleys in Brooklyn. Its a great feeling when they get going again under their own power again, and having a great future ahead of them.
I've recently joined Branford and hope to try and become active, although given my location on the Jersey Shore I probably should have given some thought to joining you down in Baltimore since my interest is in the trolleys more than the subway equipment and the traffic, even in the off-season, between Jersey and East Haven is horrendous. On the other hand, Branford DOES have #1001 ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
my interest is in the trolleys more than the subway equipment and the traffic, even in the
off-season, between Jersey and East Haven is horrendous. On the other hand, Branford DOES
have #1001 ...
..and 220 and 316 and 4573 and 629 and 2431.......
-Jeff H. (and as I'm sure Dan has only temporarily forgotten,
I'm active at Branford)
How true ... I ran 629 down the line and back when I was there in October. But PCCs are still my favorites.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wanna help with the last Pullman?? Ok, it was bought by Boston, but I could use the extra hands to get it going for BROOKLYN. hehehe
Physically there's not much I could do to help, unfortunately. But when the time comes for some of the fine detailing work let me know and I'll try to come assist with that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also want to FINALLY come and visit some other museums this summer(and hopefully operate some other equipment :) ). I have been to Branford(and spent a day in their training program)...and I know I want to go to Baltimore(I have met John LaCosta). Any other reccomendations?
Well, there's TMNY (Kingston) and the folks up north of Hartford (can't remember their name right now). And I understand the Scranton, Pennsylvania museum is open now too.
I'm going to try and get to Orange Empire in Perris, California on March 18th - I'm flying into LA on the 17th and will rent a car, my ultimate destination is Las Vegas to see my older daughter and my grandchildren. If I can get away with it I'm going to stay a full week so I can visit Tehachapi on the way back and also ride the lines in LA before flying back east on the 24th or 25th.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw a video that has put IRM HIGH on my list too....
I want to get back there as well - I haven't visited nearly 25 years - but they aren't open year round. I was within 15 miles two weeks ago and could probably have twisted my daughter's arm to permit at least a quick visit, but I knew they were closed.
Another good one is the Halton County Radial Railway in Guelph Mills, Ontario, west of Toronto. I visited there in 1993. It includes retired Toronto subway equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any person interested in visiting museum/heritage/tourist railroad/trolley/transit sites in North America should get a copy of the annual Guide to Tourist Railroads and Museums (Kalmbach). At TMNY, we sold out of the 1999 edition, but we still have some older issues at 50% off. Contact me off-line if you want one. The 2000 issue should be out in February or March.
12/30/99
Jeremy,
The Illinois Railroad Museum is a must. I visited there back in '94 and was astounded. It was on one weekend when Chicago was showcased. They ran 6000's, 4000's, a Chicago streetcar, a steam engine pulling Lackawanna "Boonton" cars, etc. It was like visiting the 1964-65 NY World's Fair. One day isn't enough.
Bill Newkirk
I hear you Bill...
I was finally watching "Fabulous Trolleys"(in which I was the dispatcher for many of the shots taken at Seashore).
I saw the segment with the Chicago El Cars...now I am a NY guy through and through, but those care were beautiful....Now I need to run them!!!:)
Jeremy
I would do ANYTHING to sample the 4000s! I remember them well, but never had a chance to ride them. You could always tell when a 4000-series train went by without even looking up; they sounded distinctively different from the 6000s.
BTW, that wasn't Green Hornet 4391 IRM was running that day, was it? They were running 1374 on the day I was out there in 1996.
You're referring to Warehouse Point, which is in Windsor, CT, just off I-91. They have several 4000-series L cars from Chicago, but no New York subway equipment, IIRC.
Warehouse Point's official name is the Connecticut Trolley Museum. As already mentioned, the Shore Line Trolley Museum runs some NYC transit cars. Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport ME also has some NYC cars, but I don't know many are operable.
At Seashore, R4/R7A 800/1440 are operable. Gibbs car 3352 is sidelined with brake stand problems, but otherwise operable. TARS streetcar 631 is part of the public operating fleet. Brooklyn streetcar 4547 is in the prime display barn, and is operable only for shifting (motor troubles).
What brake stand is in the Gibbs?
As delivered in 1904, an M-19. As modified ca. 1910, ME-21.
Thanks. I was there once, in October of 1983, and have been to Shore Line many times. Haven't made it to Seashore yet.
""Haven't made it to Seashore yet. "
You should come see us...
Believe me, a visit to Seashore is at the top of my wish list.
If you can do that, it would be a great help!! #3 needs some detailing work inside. Lotsa wood to polish and brass to refinish. I was on her today repairing some roof canvas.
Made some parts for the PCC's today too. Getting the aircraft quality BoT green/aluminum polyurethane before long. Evan - please email me about this.
I MISS THE TROLLEYCARS.COM GUESTBOOK!
Does anyone know why Susan and Bill shut that down?
I miss the trolleycars.com discussion area too. However, a new discussion group has been created at http://www.egroups.com/group/trolley.
Apparently Sue uses a Brand X (read: freeware) BBS software that crashes frequently. The BBS will be back as soon as she has time (remember, a new Publicover arrived recently). It's not gone forever.
They used the original web_board software that we did. It was pretty unreliable under load. This place uses webbbs, which is 100% reliable if not a little bit slow (all indicies are generated each time they are viewed. Web_board's problem was that the html file containing the message index got corrupted if people posted simultaneously). I started to convert webbbs to use a mSQL server back-end to store messages but it turned out to be a lot slower once a few thousand messages were loaded into it...
-Dave
I just installed WebBBS 4.02 on an amputee-related website that I run, after a few months of using version 3.21. I also plan on using it for a new Chicago-oriented website that I'm slowly putting together. So far I've been very happy with the program... Maybe someday soon I'll even register it and download the admin script as well. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I can tell you right now there's little need for any external administration. (I say that not knowing what the admin script actually does but WebBBS is maintenance free.) This is v. 2.25 heavily hacked by myself. To upgrade would require reimplementing several hours of code modifications that I've made over the past two years.
-Dave
I am active with Railway Preservation Corporation. Restoring AB's, R1-9's and LO-V's is no easy task.
I'm a volunteer with TMNY too. I handle the mail, memberships, archives and the web pages (see www.mhrcc.org/tmny/). I am active in the restoration of Johnstown Traction Co. trolley #358 (did all the electrical work). I repaired the rectifiers (two 300V units which we run in series) so that R-16 #6398 could have 600V power. Before it got cold, I started lo-v testing on Hamburg tram #3584.
I'm also a qualified operator on the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority in Dallas (MATA runs four heritage trolleys in daily service).
I'm more of a trolley guy so I don't speak up much in this discussion group, but I am watching it most of the time.
I'm an Instructor (and past-Trustee) at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine, and also support a number of restoration efforts there.
Like Todd...I too am an instructor at Seashore...and am spearheading current projects such as trying to bring some different cars out on display this year.
Like Todd and Jeremy, I also serve as an instructor at Seashore, I also help out in the shop with the electrical planning for restorations and the troubleshooting of operating equipment which isn't. Lastly I maintain records and statistics on power and water consumption, car mileage and passengers carried, and distribute the information as required.
I'm a member of Branford and the Transit Musuem. I've worked one time on 6688 at Branford and look foward to working on her some more. I might even go to their operator classes this spring but my love is the heavy rail not the trolly (though the PCC does get my heart beating). Maybe the trollies will grow on me....
You know, I had that same attitude way back in the beginning. I didn't necessarily find interest in the streetcars, but I've learned to appreciate their heritage. Streetcars were the backbone of many cities. If you needed to get around, there was a streetcar on the corner. They are really ok. Actually, these are quite easy to operate. The catch is you have to abide by rules of the road, as if you were driving an automobile.
I encourage you to take the operator session in the Spring. You can get experience as an operator and a tour guide. It's up to guys like us to promote our Museum because out there is our future members who will to keep Association alive and well. You have to work from the bottom up. Get the experience operating the streetcars first. Then consider operating the heavier Rapid Transit Equipment. Between knowing the rules of the road, and numerous practice runs you take on the heavy equipment with guys like Lou S., operating will be easy!!! I emphasize that we must get some operating experience before moving on to the heavier stuff, which isn't as easy as operating a streetcar, but not impossible. As a matter of fact, the R17 is among the simplest of the RT Cars to operate. Only a select number of operators at Branford can operate the heavy stuff, but if you keep working on a car like 6688, chances you'll get the training needed to operate it. Now it becomes possible to take a test with an inspector and see if you got what it takes to be a qualified Rapid Transit Car Operator.
Lastly, I still have to go through the formal break-in process as an operator. I'm qualified, but now it's time to get into the actual process of being a guide and greeting the public in general. I'd expect to start operating regular at the beginning of next season by going on the road with an experienced operator and finally going on my own and seeing to the passenger's needs.
Cheers and See You Soon,
Stef
The rt equipment is fun to get into, but physically tiring unless
you have a large crew around. I've been running the New York
weekends at Branford for a few years now, and by the end of the day
I'm pretty beat climbing on and off those things to swing poles,
throw switches, etc. You come to appreciate a nice little trolley
car with platform steps!
Take the op training class. You have to learn to crawl before
you can learn to run. I don't know anyone who learned to drive
a tractor-trailer before they learned to drive a car {although
I learned to operate electric railway vehicles before I got my
driver's license), and likewise we want our operators to have
good experience with basic streetcar operations and the PC
(physical characteristics) of our little railway before they
take the next step and train on the heavy stuff.
At Seashore we start operators off on straight air streetcars for their first year, adding the variations (PCCs, self lapping, hand brakes, TARS 631) for the second year, and anything they want to try thereafter.
Speaking of TARS631, what's up with the battery charging sytsem?
I was up there one weekend late in the summer (you weren't around
though it seems) and I took a look at it (as you know we have
sister car 629 at Branford).....didn't look like the battery was
being charged at all from the generator.
It definitely wasn't!
The car has a history of trouble with the cut-out (reverse current) relay in the regulator box, but that wasn't the problem this time. Having put an ohmmeter across the generator output, I got very erratic readings as I turned the armature. I opened up the brush cover and found the commutator very dirty. I cleaned it with a commutator stone and the performance improved dramaticly!
Gerry
Oh...that'll do it....I cleaned up that little AGC fuse on
the back of the generator...at Branford we have to keep cleaning
that and slapping NO-CORODE all over it.
At BSM we start with hand brakes (we've got more of them than anybody else), once qualified they can move on to air brake (Witt, PCC, Safety). Starting with hand brakes gives the people more of the "feel" of the car, and the adjustment to air is much easier. That's why BSM people can jump from a hand brake car to a PCC and right back to hand without giving it a second thought.
I am involved with the Central NY Chapter, NRHS in Syracuse. We have a fairly large collection of equipment including the following pieces of possible interest to Sub Talkers.
PRSL M-403 RDC-1
LIRR 1149 MP-54
LIRR 2910 Coach
LIRR 2947 Coach
LIRR ???? Coach Awaiting Delivery
LIRR ???? Coach Awaiting Delivery
PRR 4933 GG-1
In addition to this, I own a GE 23 ton Switch engine which is presently on display at the chapter museum at Central Square, NY
12/29/99
John J. Blair,
Your NRHS chapter has a LIRR MP-54 (#1149) on your property? Is it running? Tell me more.
Bill Newkirk
The MP-54 is not running. It is part of our display at the NY State fairgrounds.
I am involved in a new project where we will run PCC cars on the Lakefront in Kenosha WI (Cars from the Lakefront in Toronto)
The tack is done and the electrification should be done by spring
PS. one of out team members worked with Todd in Maine.
We should be ready for visitors this summer.
I am also in contact with and share technical information with the group in East Troy WI, the last operating segment of the old Milwaukee Electric interurban/streetcar network.
Kewl. I'm interested in how the B3 truck swap is doing. Beleive it or not there's std gauge B2's floating around loose out there in various places. Still trying to get ahold of someone responsible in Mexico City - they have about 30 pair stored away
Those who haven't seen it yet can go to http://www.nycsubway.org/pcc/kenosha.html for more info on the Kenosha project.
Sorry for the typo in the name.
I know that Dan & many of the rest of you folks know that I'm a new member of Shoreline @ Branford. A few others who look in & post here from time to time at that museum are Steve K., Lou S., George B., Doug aka BMT man, Bill Wall ... these and many more help with the physical stuff from time to time.
P.S. At Kingston add Harry to Erick & Evan.
I'm not saying that I'm a preserver, but I do get great pleasure getting dirty in some way while I'm there. It's thanks to guys like Jeff H. & Lou S. who you'll find at many of the area museums. They are there almost every weekend, know almost everything about the heavy stuff & most importantly are happy to share their knowlege with guys like me who have a willing spirit and a bunch of thumbs.
For you fence sitters out there, let me encourage you (again) to join one of the area museums. Branford has done very well the past couple of years and now has an ever growing group of subway folks to complement the trolley enthusists. For just $15 they'll send you a whole bunch of stuff plus a membership card that's good for free rides. A deal like that you just can't beat with a stick !
The more folks these places get the more likely we'll be able to ride the Standards at Coney Island, the Hi-Vs & Lo-Vs, the R-1 to 9s, the Q at Kingston, the R-16, the R-17 and how about the Mineola, but now I'm realy dreaming ... and Dan down the in Baltimore, none of the above dimishes the important work that you trolley guys do. They've just finsihed one at Branford ... what a fantistic job !
Mr t__:^)
Im glad to hear that Branford is doing well. They have a marvelous collection.
I was somewhat active there in the late 70s/early 80s (as a Kid) but I got involved in several other groups before settling on Seashore as my museum of choice. They have about the neatest collection, though I've had some severe problems with the way the place has been managed lately. Champagne tastes on a Budweiser budget get you only so far.
Ive also heard good things about the folks in Scranton, which seems to be where the Buckingham and East Penn folks have found a permanent and friendly home. Good for them.
It would be nice if folks in general pitched in a bit more to help the museums along. We used to have "dinner clubs" at seashore a while back; you'd get 10-20 fellows together who had an interest in a car and they'd "take the car to dinner" weekly. That is, every week they'd each sack away the cost of a dinner (today perhaps $10-$25) and donate it to the car's fund. If you have some patience, even full ground up restorations can be done this way. The volunteers do the simpler stuff while the paid folks ("subsidized" summer help ie, college kids or retirees) pick up the slack on the drudgery.
Unfortunately, these days, it seems to be harder and harder to get folks to stick together in such a fashion. Perhaps people are too interested in instant gratification these days.
Unfortunately, these days, it seems to be harder and harder to get folks to stick together in such a
fashion. Perhaps people are too interested in instant gratification these days
Yeah, you hit it on the head, Conrad. I admire your dedication
to Seashore...that's a LONG drive from Woodhaven! The problem
you describe seems to be facing many of the east coast museums.
There are a lot of "other things to do" in these markets, and
despite those 1950s predictions of a 15 hour work week by 2000,
Americans are working more hours now than ever before. There's
a lot of competition from electronic forms of entertainment.
I think eventually the trend will reverse and people will seek
"real" things to gratify themselves.
[Im glad to hear that Branford is doing well. They have a marvelous collection.] ... [It would be nice if folks in general pitched in a bit more to help the museums along.]
I get the impression that for a while a lot of recently acquired equip. was just left outside, but now there's a conscious effort to protect & stablize everything that they have, even a Trackless Trolley. That ensures that someday every piece could be restored or be valauable enough to trade for something else.
[Unfortunately, these days, it seems to be harder and harder to get folks to stick together in such a fashion. Perhaps people are too interested in instant gratification these days.]
I'm very glad I got off the fence. The wife may not be quite as happy about this, but she sees how much pleasues it gives me. I also think the heavy stuff at some of the area museums is just what they need to bring in a whole new group of folks, because when they need to replace some ties or build a barn it's bodies they need. AND, I'll bet that some of the out-of-towners that belong & can only send a check also get pleasure out seeing one of their favorite cars being preserved forever.
I've always believed that you have to make an effort, even if it's a small one, because when a thing/time is gone, it's gone forever ! e.g. I always went out of my way to get involved with what my kids were doing outside of school, be it a class trip to Ellis Island, soccer, baseball, boy/girl scouts, etc. I wasn't interested in running the thing or getting thanks and prase, just being their and maybe doing something of value. One time I went on a class trip to Penn. We arrived at the hotel to find out that the pool life guard just came off duty. I claimed to be certified so the kids got the swim that they were looking forward to. I told the teacher that I would appreciate a few helpers just in case something happened. She sat next to me & most of the other parrents stuck around too. The swim tired out the kids & we all slept better that night.
Mr t__:^)
I work as a conductor on Djurgårdslinjen, a heritage streetcar line in central Stockholm. We run service every weekend from about 1 April to 31 December, and daily service during the summer.
The line started up in June of 1991, and in August of 1998 we carried our two millionth passenger. The line runs between Norrmalmstorg in central Stockholm and the island of Djurgården, where there are lots of recreational attractions, such as museums and an amusement park.
We have our own fare system and our own tickets, since our operation is privately run (the Swedish Tramway Society's Stockholm chapter staffs the operation on a volunteer basis), but from time to time, the local transit agency, SL, purchases supplemental service from us. On those occasions we accept their monthly, four-month and yearly cards for rides on our line.
More info (translated into English by yours truly! ;-) ):
Swedish Tramway Society home page
-- Tim
As long as my ticket's validation stamp is less than 2 hours old, that entitle me to as many rides as I want? Being a bit of a cheap skate, it sounds too good to be true. So if I go during rush hour, I can ride up and back maybe 6 times for $1 in two hours?
I did and nobody said anything. If they do, what are you doing wrong? You are with a valid ticket which says NOTHING about stopovers. My friend who operates PCC's there said he never heard that it is not allowed.
A note on the new fare system:
I rode for 90 minutes last week and never got checked. The next time I was there (Next day) I was checked 12 times by 10 ticket checkers and 2 cops. 3 of those times were in Penn. Station BEFORE I EVEN GOT TO THE PLATFORM!!! People were getting real annoyed.
sounds like the LOS ANGELES rail system blue green red lines !!
Yes. Strange as it seems. I was in Newark with some time to kill one day within a week of the opening of the new ticketing system. There were a platoon of NJT types in the basement of Penn Station explaining the new arrangements to one and all. Being used to the old system, I had already bought two tickets for my anticipated round trip to and from Franklin Avenue when I was told by one of the official NJT people on the scene to save one of them for another day because I could ride as many times and as far as I wanted -- too bad the system only goes as far as the edge of Newark, instead of Miami!!!!! -- so long as I did it all within two hours of the time stamped on the ticket by the validator machine.
This system is obviously not designed for New Yorkers.
kma--- thanks for the information. The system is perfectly designed for this New Yorker.
Yes. Strange as it seems. I was in Newark with some time to kill one day within a week of the opening of the new ticketing system. There were a platoon of NJT types in the basement of Penn Station explaining the new arrangements to one and all. Being used to the old system, I had already bought two tickets for my anticipated round trip to and from Franklin Avenue when I was told by one of the official NJT people on the scene to save one of them for another day because I could ride as many times and as far as I wanted -- too bad the system only goes as far as the edge of Newark, instead of Miami!!!!! -- so long as I did it all within two hours of the time stamped on the ticket by the validator machine.
This system is obviously not designed for New Yorkers.
If you have only 2 hours to use the ticket, where's the unlimited riding privileges? Most chances are that you're going to have to get another ticket for the return trip. What they need on the City Subway is something similar to metrocard or funpass.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
This much I do know. You purchase a ticket from a machine, and validate it yourself in a separate validating stamping machine. You don't surrender it when you enter the trolley. You just have to show it, in case an inspector asks you. So in a way it's like a $1 2 hour Fun Pass.
I actually rode the trolleys, about a week before they put the program in effect. You didn't have to buy a ticket that week, but the vending machines were selling them at the time. I bought 4 of them, and took 2 round trips. The operators weren't sure of whether to take the tickets or not at that time.
And even though there were NJT people around the machines, I was into my normal mode of never asking people questions. I wait till I get to SubTalk to start tormenting people with my presence.
That's the way it works on Denver's light rail. You buy a ticket from a vending machine. When the line first opened in 1994, you had to validate the ticket yourself on the same type of stamping machine heypaul is referring to. The vending machines were subsequently modified so they now validate the ticket for you. (For some reason, the stamping machines are still in place and still function. The only purpose I can think of would be to validate a bus transfer, since they can be used on light rail.) Tickets have a one hour and 20 minute window of validity. Technically, you need to buy a new ticket for each trip, and there is a recorded announcement to that effect, but one of the RTD brass told me during a demonstration ride that as long as you're still within that time window, you can ride as much as you want in either direction. Once the southwest extension opens, that may all change. There is talk of zone fares, with passengers boarding at outlying stations having to fork over $2.00 for a ticket.
As for roving inspectors, I rarely ever see one, and then when I do, it's on the return trip from Denver. I've never seen one on the inbound trip. While some may find it tempting to ride without paying, I would never condone it. Why push your luck?
Its another super-hyped Update at Transit with plenty of new surprises. Check it out!
http://www.geocities.com/transitalk/NYCTransit.html
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Founder/Co-Webmaster
TransiTALK
At 148th this afternoon, I saw the first five cars of the incoming #3 were from Pelham. They were (N)1900-1899-1898-1897-1896-x-x-x-x(S), the x's being the R62A singles.
At 145th, they open the doors of the first five cars (not four), like at South Ferry.
Now, how do they open, in this case only car 1896 if that #3 were to go back south when it enters 145th, while keeping cars 1897, -8, -9 and 1900 closed?
Nick (aka Kinght of the Golden Rose)
Nick,
It is the first 5 at South Ferry.
I did state that at South Ferry they still open the first five. I was referring to 145th on the Lenox #3 Line which used to only open first four cars. Now, it will open the first five (when did that change occur?)
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
So far, seen the following on the N today: R68, R32 and Slant R40!
A far cry from not long ago when even a mixed R32/R42 crazy set of cars was ruling the N, along side R68s, R68As and Slant R40s!
Alas, only one slant R40 (or two) sets were seen. They were all numbered less than 4350 or so.
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
There are more "N" slants. They may have been back at the yard. Keep an eye out for #4320, with its white letter "N" on an orange background. Slants #4396-4449 can be found on the "L" train.
Wayne
I thought 4396-7 are back in Coney Island?
They may be now. Last time I saw them they were on the "L" - this was after the Willy B opening/re-reshuffling of equipment - October 27th. I will keep an eye out for them next time I am on the "Q" or "L".
Wayne
I just hate those slant r40's! They waste passenger space and they look really ugly...of COURSE the majority of them are on my favorite line (L)! Just my luck!
No, the majority of them are on the Q.
Remember, they are fast.
You should see them outrun D trains on the Brighton line. Now, THAT'S fun!!
Back on March 15, 1999, Simon Billis and I were happily camped out at the railfan window of R40 #4314, and we watched this wonderfully frisky train outrun not one, not two, but THREE lumbering R68's - one as we pulled out of Brighton Beach, the next between Avenue "M" and Avenue "J" and the third at Parkside as we took the green lollipop into Prospect Park. I got a good picture (I didn't post it yet) of us overtaking the second one - we were moving at a very good clip, perhaps in excess of 45MPH (couldn't see the speedo). Ditto back on November 8th - this time southbound with #4230 in the lead. Two "D"s left in the dust. Slants can RUN. R68s...well, they ARE locals...
Wayne
Actually, the majority of them are on the "Q" line - those numbered #4150 through #4397 (minus the six scraps) - that's 242 units. The "L" only has 48 - #4398 through #4449, minus 4 scraps.
Yesh, the R40 are ughly with all that hardware on their front ends. So ughly that only a mother (or a true railfan) can love them. And their seats? Forget about it! As slippery as an elm, and very hard on the sacroiliac and coccxyx (SIC!). Their true redeeming qualities: their feel, their speed, their unequalled railfan windows. I'll take a Slant over just about any other kind of subway car, although I happen to also be rather fond of R38s and their handsome interiors.
Wayne
01/06/2000
I hear many fans rave about the R-40 slant railfan window. I can't see what all the fuss is about. The window is long and narrow. I prefer the common squarish windows on the R-42's and 38's on down. I do see that they are a boon to the little tykes getting their first taste of New york City's viewing tradition. And now I'll humbly wait for !!!!???MR.WILLIE's!!!!??? railfan window response !!!!!!!
Bill!!?? Newkirk
I have a 3 year old son. The only railfan windows he can look out of without being held are the R40 slants and the LIRR's M1's & M2's. Funny thing though, after a couple minutes looking out front (or back) he asks to sit down!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
my Transit buff page
try my COLOR QUIZ
Jeff, you might be interested to know that PATH trains also have low front windows. Because of this, my four-year-old is always bugging me to take him to New Jersey! (When did you hear anyone BEG to go to Jersey?)
The run to Newark is especially exciting. Lots of scenery (Freight yards, laid up Amtrak and NJT consists, passing freights, steel truss bridges) and blinding speed (the rush of air when the Manhattan-bound train charges into the tunnel approaching Grove Street pop your ears every time) in tunnel and on outdoor ROW- up to 55- make this a real treat for both of us. Combine that with a ride on the soon to be retired 1940s Newark PCs, and it's a great day trip for railfans of all ages.
We haven't had luck on the M1s. Either the front car is closed off or the railfan window is blocked by the open cab door or someone chatting with the engineer. We've actually been chased away.
Howard: The silver color cars of the "N", what type cars are they? R whats? Do you know. I rode two of them last summer. They are older than the newer models used on that line.
01/07/2000
Sea Beach Fred,
I may not be Howard, but I'm Bill (Newkirk). Perhaps if they had slanted ends, they were the R-40S's (1967),top to bottom fluting, the R-32's (1964-65).Other than that they could have been the R-68's bu they are rather recent (1988). Remember any car numbers ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill: From what you've described they are probably R32's. Thanks for your help. Have a great day.
To be more specific, the R-68 is 1986-7 (2000 series numbers) and the R-68A (5000 series numbers) is 1988-89. The R-68A is shinier.
Howard,
Actually, I've found that having a toddler with you solves the problems you stated in the last paragragh. Most of the LIRR engineers I've seen were very nice to my son. One offered to let him hit the whistle at one of the crossings by New Hyde Park. My son actually declined the offer and I then wondered what I did wrong in bringing him up!!
Back in July, a motorman on the 'M' shuttle, the one made necessary by the Bridge work, let my son toot the horn as we approached Hewes Street. It probably helped that it was early Saturday morning and 'only' 83 degrees- i.e. low ridership and nerves not frayed yet.
Most conductors and train operators are very enthused to see a young child taking such an interest in transit. Whenever we're 'driving' a Slant, I often end up talking shop with the operator. When we get off, if we're in the right position, I show Robbie how the conductor checks the doors before closing them. We almost always get a smile and wave from the conductor.
An adult buff on his or her own isn't always received nearly as warmly. As mentioned, I often get chased away from the front window of an M-1. Once on the SIR, I was looking through the small round hole in the otherwise papered-over front cab window all the way from Tottenville through Grasmere, when the operator realized I was there and quickly covered the hole. This has happened on R44s through 68As as well.
Do they think I'm a spy?
The moral of the story: Bring a kid on your railfan trips, even if it means borrowing somebody else's kid. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
"The moral of the story: Bring a kid on your railfan trips, even if it means borrowing somebody else's kid. :-)"
I wish I knew how many pretty girls stop to talk to you when you have a toddler when I was single!! I would have always been borrowing other people's kids!! Heck, I would've run a whole babysitting service!!!
AND PUPPIES, Especially Retrievers(Golden, Labs ETC)
I'll rent you one, cheap ... of course, at his age and size (14 years old, 6' tall and still growing) he'd probably be more useful if a mugger showed up at 3 AM :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am not for rent, but I am good at keeping the muggers away. You supply the stun blaster, and I'll supply the aim!
Until Next Time (if there is one for me),
Anon_e_mouse Jr.
uh-oh mouse! Finally got the kid involved here,huh?
Yup. Going to bring him on the field trip next weekend too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last summer I was with my 3 yr old son at Mineola and brought him up to see the loco on one of the afternoon Oyster Bay trains that terminate there. (one of the old ones, not bitri-level) The engineer said, "If you're ever in Oyster Bay when I begin my run, come over and I'll let you 2 ride up here with me". That would have been a dream come true for me. Unfortunately I don't really remember what time that was or what he looked like!! Very perceptive of me, huh?
Yeh Sarge, the operator wises off with you and all you do is flash your badge, and they really respect you Gut Shabbos
I was on a train here in DC going from Grosvenor to Friendship Heights one evening and the operator muttered "Why the hell is he standing? Why doesn't he sit down?" They just don't liked being watched. Others, are kind and courteous. They hold the train to talk to me or open the cab door to talk. I've seen operators here in DC keep the doors open or even try to reopen the doors for people rushing down the escalator trying to catch the train. In NYC, I saw a lady ask if the train there was the local. The conductor answered and then shut the door in the face of the person who asked them. In DC, they would have waited.
"Do they think I'm a spy?"
No. But do you like the feeling of someone staring at you? Even when I know that someone is just looking out at the track I find it disturbing. And I'm a railfan!
So what I do is just keep the door open and avoid the problem. Not everyone feels as I do.
I've had many more good experiences with engineers on the LIRR then the subways. My grandson is 6, so he's just the right age & size. Once when it was just his mother with him he got to sit on the engineers knee & toot the horn. Was the engineer hitting on my daughter ...nah NOT. My grandson was the benificary just the same.
Mr t__:^)
well your wait is over !!!!!! hey!!! hey!! hey!! the SLANT R 40s ran smooth and had good BASS TYPE SOUNDS !!!
and the Q LINE is great !!!!! railfan windows mr newkirk!
why didnt they continue the r 38 type front on the R 40s and later sybway car types???
AND OH YES THE SLANT R 40 AINT ALL BAD !!!! ( at least it has a... RAILFAN WINDOW !! ) ...
but i do prefer my ROUGHRIDER ----------- REDBIRDS !!!!!!!
the Q line video came out great !!! day and night roosevelt island station was my favorite !!!!
when you retire the redbirds send them out here to the los angeles red line !!!!!!!!
i can see it now railfan windows in LOS ANGELES !! right on !!!!!!!!! .......
01/07/2000
MR.WILLIE!!!!!!!
I must say you are improving! You're using less CAPS and exclamation points. Maybe this is a new years resolution come true !!
Anyway...maybe Raymond Lowey (who designed the PRR GG-1) felt the long narrow storm door (railfan) window would look more visually pleasing than the square type. After all the "slant nose" design was to break from tradition and look avante garde compared to the older "R" types. However the necessary gates and chains proved to be the equivalant to drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa! I'm sure Wayne-Slant 40 should also agree.
Bill Newkirk
Last night they showed a movie on HBO called Gloria (1999) They showed some slants on the A Train. The Markings were right, I did not get the numbers. I know it will be on again. The station was named 158. But mostlikely 168th. Has anyone seen this?, It stared Sharon Stone and had George C Scott in it before he passed
Yeah, the cars looked quite clean! I think one of them was 4287, but I may be wrong.
I did catch that wrongly labeled station too -- but the purple stripes on the tile walls may help identify it. However -- the train seemed to be going the "wrong way" on the express tracks.
I did catch that wrongly labeled station too -- but the purple stripes on the tile walls may help identify it. However -- the train seemed to be going the "wrong way" on the express tracks.
Maybe it was a British film.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Or perhaps they pulled a stunt straight from I Love Lucy and printed the sequence backwards.
Actually, all the lettering was correct (i.e. facing the correct direction) and the taillamps were lit on the rear of the train, but
it was going in the opposite direction on the express track from normal flow of traffic. (If it was "printed backwards" the headlights would have been on.)
I saw the movies this past tuesday & the station that make was at 168st station. The R40slant is #4260 & can't tell other cars but the movies made most of in New York City.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
According to sources, all the scenes depicting NY City in the movie
"Gloria" were actually done on location in NYC.
The scenes of the parochial school, though, were done in the area of Oakland, California!! About ten years ago, I used to drive tour/charter buses, and had to bring a Catholic school group from southern California up to the bay area and we stayed at that place. It is actually a "retreat" nowadays. (Those who have gone through parochial schooling know what that term means -- sort of a place to "get away from it all" and concentrate on religious stuff...)
CAN'T BE #4260! That car, or at least what's left of it, is sitting a hulk out at Coney Island Yard, its nose removed and a huge gash in its side, after derailing and crashing into a curtain-wall west of 9th Avenue on August 15, 1994. Unless it's the Frankenslant, which was formerly #4461...which is now wearing the nose of the original #4260.
Wayne
That movie,by the way, is a remake of a 1984(?)movie of the same name. In that one they pull off one HUGE boner: they have this little kid supposedly getting on a 'train for Pittsburgh', and they show him getting on, believe it or not, an NJT train in Hoboken! You must see to believe.....
The N line has seen R-32s for as long as they've been around. I can't say for sure if they've served the N without interruption since 1964-65, but they came mighty close if that's not the case. At times, they provided base service, while at other times they've provided supplemental service. It's funny, but I immediately associate the R-32s with the N, even though they've run on virtually every IND and BMT route you can think of. The very first subway train I ever rode on was an N of R-32s.
I was searching for a #1978 (my birth year) on the #3 today, but without success :(
I did, though get into the following car #s: 1918 (end of WWI) and 1982 (which happens to be the birth year of my online French g/f)
I also missed a set containing 1998, which was headed by 1913 leaving 148th.
1997, was in the Lenox yards, but no sighting of 1999 or 2000. 2001 was I think in the consist which was headed by 1900 to 1896 entering 148th while I was leaving 148th in #1982 (which was the only car in the 1900s) of that consist.
1980 was the 2nd car in the consist which contained 1918 today, though, which was headed by none other than 1940.
Alas, no 1978 before the year 2000 :( and I only get to visit NY about three times a year :(
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
The last time I saw 1999 was in Boro Hall a few years ago and luckily missed it (it got stuck behind a 2 at 14th, I got a 2 that was rerouted to the local tracks). I haven't found 1986 yet, which is my birthyear. I was on the 3 my last trip but only to get from Penn Station to Times Square to get the shuttle over to GC. I did see 1776 on the 6 at 77th Street (American Independance) and got the picture of its number.
I think I saw 1986 on that consist headed by 1900 to 1896 yesterday, as well as 1947 in the same consist.
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
P.S. Good find on #1776 and will you please post that pic on a web page somewhere? Thanks!
When I get acess to a scanner somewhere, I will.
Some years ago I saw a #3 train which had #1954 (my birth year), #1922 (my Mom's), and #1914 (my Dad's). Also in it were #1969, #1965 and a few other "Years Of Our Lives".
The only ones I've never seen (I'm sure they're out there) are #1932 and #1936.
Wayne
I have yet to see #1956, although I did spot 1962, 1958 and 1959 (coupled together!) last October. And 1969 headed the southbound 3 train I took one evening. Now, THAT was good year - if you're a Mets fan, anyway.
Hey! Check the Grand Central/Times Square shuttle, I think it was on there today, but not completely sure since I was in a rush to get to work. The Lenox/Livonia cars of the 3 line are now used on the shuttle as well, so I hope you have luck looking for you birth year. I saw mines on the 3 train about 3 weeks ago, so I know the feeling!
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
Co-Webmaster/Photographer
TransiTALK Platinum 2000
"1982 (which happens to be the birth year of my online French g/f)"
I've been looking for that for ages! Your French girlfriend and I share a birth year.
I did check the 3-car TSQ/GC Shuttle hours before I went home to Boston, and found 1941, 1951 and 1987....argh!!!! If that 1987 had its digits reversed.....
No sightings on my trip of any 197x cars on either the #3 or 42 St Shuttle.
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
Anybody know the status of the rail connection between Newark Airport and the Amtrak main line?
I recall a couple of years ago reading that ground had been broken, but I can't find anything about the project on the Port Authority web sites or the NJT pages...
Quite a bit of progress has been made, but I'll leave the details to those folks who have seen it more recently than I have (I was last by there in late summer).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The current state of affairs as seen last Thursday from an "Air-Link" bus is that many of the verticle supports for the elevated right of way are in place. I didn't notice any horizontal connections between the towers, but I was so surprised to see any tangible evidence of work and the bus was moving so fast that I failed to make a systematic survey.
Maybe I will go take another look when I don't have a plane to catch.
The structure of the station itself is largely built, but it still needs external covering, escalators, etc. . . I'm not sure if the bridge connecting northbound and southbound sides is there yet.
The supports for the monorail to the station are standing and a couple horizontal connections are in place. Again, I'm not sure if those are actually the monorail track or supports.
I think it's scheduled to open in 2001.
The sooner the better, I loathe the Airlink bus. $4.00 for a 2 mile ride at 20 minute intervals is rediculous.
That's why I skip the Airlink and take the local - it only takes an extra five minutes and costs less than half the price.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is what I've seen:
the platforms are essentially complete. On the Trenton bound side, the escalators have been raised to the overpass level (same for NY side, and sdame for monorail side (to right of NY side-"South").
The building on the monorail side is still going up as are canopies onm both platforms on the NJT/Amtrak side. The overpass is essentially done except for interiro and cosmetic (panelling) work.
Joker wrote:
Anybody know the status of the rail connection between Newark Airport and the Amtrak main line?
I recall a couple of years ago reading that ground had been broken, but I can't find anything about the project on the Port Authority web sites or the NJT pages...
You wrote:
Go to the bombardier page http://www.bombardier.com they have info on it.
Under the number on the R62s, there is a color band with a different colored shape on it. I believe Lenox is blue with a coral (red) diamond and Pelham is yellow (not sure what shape). What are the others? Thanks, in advance.
I know the yellow triangle represents 207th St shop and the orange rectangle is the Concourse yard. --Kevin.
I don't have the shapes- only the colors and only the IRT yards...
IRT 240 St Yard(1/9): Red
IRT 239 St Yard (2): Green
IRT Westchester (Pelham)Yard (6,S): Yellow
IRT Jerome Yard (4): Orange
IRT 148 St Yard (3): Blue
IRT Livonia Yard (3): Blue
IRT East 180 St & Unionport Yard (5): Black
IRT Corona Yard (7): Purple
Hope this helps a little
-Harry
Just three corrections.
Since 1995, black-striped cars (R33) moved from E180 Street Yard to 239 Street Yard; green-striped cars (R26/R28/R29) moved from 239 Street Yard to E180 Street Yard.
Corona Yard cars has two kinds of stripes: black and yellow with a square-shaped purple patch on each stripe. Black-striped cars are R33S(9307-9345) and R36(9346-9477). Yellow-striped cars are R36(9558-9769).
Chaohwa
Actually, only a piece of what was lost.
I have a new article on rapidtransit.net with history of photos of the BMT experimentals with a good dose of background.
If you haven't seen the Avenue H stationhouse piece, that's also there.
Comments, discussion, criticism are, of course, invited.
Thanks Paul especially for the Ave H stationhouse piece. I've used that station many many times, and was never aware of how unique the building was. It is a shame that you missed the speaking to the son of the Anderson family.
I'm looking forward to reading the article on the Bluebirds in the January issue on Saturday January 1st. I'm just in no hurry to leave the 20th century.
I'm looking forward to reading the article on the Bluebirds in the January issue on Saturday January 1st. I'm just in no hurry to leave the 20th century.
Heypaul,
You better read it now. rapidtransit.net is not Y2K compliant, and on the Saturday the article automatically shifts over to a piece on whether or not electrifying the steam elevateds is a good idea.
heyPaul--- I have to learn to cut and paste. But
you said that your site is not Y2K compliant and
that on Saturday the article would switch to whether
to convert the steam elevateds to electricity.
Maybe that article would be even better than the
article that will be gone.
It reminds me of a Steven Wright joke. He was
watching a football game with his elderly
grandfather who was a bit senile. A team scored a
touchdown. Then they replayed the touchdown on
instant replay. His grandfather started cheering,
thinking that a second touchdown had just been
scored. Steven Wright was going to explain what had
happened, but decided not to, since the game that his grandfather was experiencing was more interesting than the actual game.
Actually I didn't read the new article because I am
hard pressed right now in arranging the redelivery
and deployment of the R1/9, low V , Triplex, and
Standard cars that will be ready to roll on
1-1-2000. We won't need 6 years to get these babies rolling.
Save a brake handle for me, won't you?
Doug, I have a dream job for you. Take a set of R9's or Standards or Triplexes, or maybe a mix of the 3 , and cover the Franklin Shuttle with them. Make your own hours, take all the pictures you want, bring along an archeological pick for any field work.
Superintendent of the Brighton Line Paul Matus will be behind you 100%. He will have his office in the Ave H station (where he will also maintain a small real estate and publishing business).
Except perhaps to get T/Os up to snuff with proper AMUE braking techniques.
I enjoyed the articles, and bookmarked the site. I'll look in on it every now and then.
As for the statement in the post -- what was lost, I'd have to say marketing and innovation. It's what the private sector does, and the public sector doesn't -- put the customer first. It does so not through genius, but through trial and error and competing ideas. Put the people with the same abilities in a bureaucracy, and innovation suffers (believe me).
That's why, the more I think about it, the more de-unification makes sense. Why not build the 2nd Ave. as the core of a third subway system, premium (express bus) priced, FRA compatible and sharing trackage with the commuter rail roads for service within the city? Why not put it out on a design, build, contract to operate for 49 years basis like the original subway? With the higher fare, and lower private sector construction costs, the public sector cost would be much lower than for an MTA project, though as with the orignial subway substantial public funding would be required.
After 49 years, the new contract could include a lower, subway type fare. As it is, we are unlikely to have ANY transportation improvements for 49 years.
Between 125 Street - 137 Street, are the switches in the tunnel or outside. Thanks.
"Between 125 Street - 137 Street, are the switches in the tunnel or outside. Thanks. "
The switches are inside.
Chuck
There a switches right before you enter the tunnel at 137st. Why don't you take a ride on #1 line & look out on the side.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
As a weekly rider of the line (from South Ferry to Riverdale :)), the switches between 125 and 137 are outside the tunnel. There is another set in the tunnel between 137 and 145 allowig access to both the storage tracks there and crossovers between all tracks in all directions. Been on many a northbound running on the southbound.
-Hank
David and Hank are right. The switches are outside the tunnels. I was thinking of the switches for the yard between 137 and 145 (duh, of course those are under cover).
I don't envy that Riverdale to South Ferry jaunt. I ride 242 to 86 three or four times a week and that's plenty long enough for me.
Perhaps if they hadn't taken away the railfan windows over the last few months I'd have remembered the switches between 125 and 137!!
Sorry for the misinformation.
Chuck
Every so once in a while, an R-62 on the 1/9 comes along with the railfan. I ride the 1/9 three or four times a week, and when a railfan train comes by, I usually look out the front. The switches are definately outside of the tunnel bet 125th and 137th. The 1/9 actually goes elevated on 120th street and continues elevated until 135th Street.
I was at the Yonkers Metro-North station today. R-142 car 7214 was sitting by itself in the industrial park, right next to the northbound local Metro-North track (separated from it only by a fence). From the north end of the northbound platform, I was able to see right into the car, which had its doors open. People were working inside, apparently putting finishing touches on the car interior. The seats appeared to be standard Redbird-type bench seats - same grey color, same curved contour. A say that's good.
One of the doors on the far side of the car closed while I was watching - perhaps it was being tested. This was about 1:30 PM. Sorry, but I didn't have a camera with me.
Okay so all this talk about new cars... but when will the first cars go into service on the IRT line? I know they are overdue... They were supposed to be delievered last year.
Rob
How long did they test the R62a's on the 7? (I thought it lasted for about a year in 1985 but I think I'm wrong) Does anyone know why they decided to stick with the redbirds?
Sticking with the Redbirds on the 7 was a BAD choice. They should have used R-62s from the start.
little known fact is that the Steinway Tubes that the 7 uses under the East River in some spots almost comes in contact with the exterior guard lights on the R62 equipment. Who knows what other conduits and piping have been installed that would cause contact with the side of a train.
This was a problem noticed when the R62 was being tested on the 7 in 1984-85. The cars have been modified and this problem no longer exists.
If I'm correct I think they did test the R62's on the 7 for about a year. I just guessing that they kept the redbirds b/c the IRT needed the R-62's more and the flushing line redbirds were in fairly good shape.
the following message was sent to the new york times a few weeks ago:
"traveling on the A line between Far Rockaway and Ridgewood, Queens, there is an abandoned track spur on Liberty Avenue and 99th Street that has a huge welded-steel spider (at least 20 feet across) hanging from an old signal bridge.
i can only catch a glimpse of this and assume its somebody's humorous sculpture. could you give me any info on this?"
does anyone know what this person is talking about? any information would be greatly appreciated.
dbs
Check out www.forgotten-ny.com - I don't remember exactly where, but there's a picture of it on that site, along with a history of the abandoned line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's on the LIRRr Rockaway Branch:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
Scroll down a bit to see the spider in it's glory . . .
It's on the LIRRr Rockaway Branch:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
Scroll down a bit to see the spider in it's glory . . .
Its probably someone's idea of a creative way to show that the line has long since been abandoned. You know, spider webs on unused abandoned structures.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
>>>Check out www.forgotten-ny.com - I don't remember exactly where, but there's a picture of it on that site, along with a history of the abandoned line. <<
Anon: thanks for the plug!
It's on my subways and trains site, on the Rockaway branch page.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
It's nice to be indipesni...indispenda...er, necessary!
The best view is to take the "A" train to Lefferts Blvd. Just past the Rockaway Blvd. station, look to the north as you cross over the
abandoned ROW. It is attached to the first signal bridge. Don't go
on the Far Rock or Rockaway Pk trains as they branch off at Rockaway
Blvd, though you can see the spider as you come north from Aqueduct
and join the Lefferts tracks...
Last year while in a used record store, I came across a record album
by B.T. Express called "Do It ('Til You're Satisfied)", which on the
front, showed the band on an elevated train station platform with
very ornate iron railings, and on the back, showed a train (LIRR or
Metro North???) pulling into the station. Can anyone who recalls
seeing this album tell me what rail line and station that is or was?
Whatever line that was, had only 2 tracks. By looking at the
buildings in the photo, it looks somewhat like the South Bronx. On the
back cover photo, just to the right of the tracks in the distance is
what looks like a high rise housing project.
I think I posted here before back when I bought the album (I bought it
just for the photo! Didn't play it once!), but I don't remember if I
got any replies. I'm wondering if that station, and its ornate
features exist today. If not, are there any websites that would show
old LIRR/Metro North stations in their original glory? Thanks for any
help.
Timothy
It's the Nostrand Avenue station of the LIRR in Brooklyn.
I have that album!
I have that album!
I don't have the album, or even the 45, but I like the song. C'mon 'n do it, do it, do it till your satisfied!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Speaking of albums with rapid transit themes: last week (while doing my usual last minute holiday shopping), I saw a large advertising poster in the window of an electronics store for one of those hip-hop/rap artists. Their name escapes me, but there was a #5 Redbird featured prominently. Looks like the Bronx is in the background.
Doug aka BMTman
Item #227208605: The Brooklyn and Rockaway Beach Railroad, The Canarsie Railroad by William F. Fausser. Published 1976, soft cover, 64 pages, maps, photos, other items. An extremely hard-to-find book. Condition A+. No reserve, minimum bid applies.
Yeah, that's an really cool book. Lots of rare turn-of-the-century (20th) photos of old Canarsie-area farm houses. It appears to have been 'self-published', with numerous hand-drawn maps showing the configuration of the original line and the old main streets of Canarsie when it was a resort fishing village.
I was lucky to have found one at an ERA meeting during the summer.
It's probably worth around $25-40.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe that the Seashore Trolley Museum gift shop still has several of Bill Clauser's B&RB books in stock, mint condition, at or near list price.
He also wrote a book on the Sea Beach. Both of his books are cherished possessions of mine. I dont know if he wrote anything else.
I met him the night he passed away, in 1978 or so. He planned to write one book on each of the Brooklyn excursion railroads (BB&WE, PP&CI, etc.) but unfortunately he never did.
His B&RB is one of those nice books that should be purchased by the NY Transit Museum and republished by them.
That way Fausser's book could be appreciated by another generation of railfans.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone know what the list price of this book is? My copy does not seem to have a price on it anywhere, and I don't think that I paid too high a price for it when I got it from a book dealer several years ago.
The Fausser book was published in small lots. I would hazard a guess that when it first came out around 1976 it was somewhere between $8 to $10 or so. I paid $25 for it about four months ago at an ERA meeting. It was in near mint condition so I thought it was worth the money (besides being rare).
(Technically, William Fausser's 'Brooklyn & Rockaway Beach RR' is more like a booklet/magazine, as it is shy of 100 pages and is saddle-stitched ala a magazine. It also has dimensions that more match a periodical than a book).
Doug aka BMTman
I did not know it was rare when I got my copy about two years ago. I just realized that my copy does not even have page numbers. It was a very interesting book, just looking it over now I think I will start reading it again. I found a picture of BU #1327 right in the middle of the book, after all any book with a BU in it has to be a good book :-).
I got into the bidding but the price reached $50, with over 8 days left, so I'm out. Till I get a regular day job again, I can't be getting into these ebay bid wars...
Smart move Kevin. Besides, I think $50 is a tad too high, IMHO.
Doug aka BMTman
I think $50 is a tad too high, IMHO
eBay is like a real auction in one way--someimes good stuff goes cheap--other times there's a real bidding frenzy and items fo way too high, IMHO.
But, hey, it's a free market.
QUESTIONS are all redbirds IRT s ?????
THE R 32 subway car.... is it an IRT?? (or) BMT-IND ????
are and do they paint stanless steel cars red ??
then they become REDBIRDS ??????? !!!!!!!!!! oh well !!?
The R-32's are IND-BMT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are stainless steel. OK?????????????????????
They DO NOT paint stainlss steel cars red.....
What would the point be????????????????????????? The R 26,28,29,33,33s and 36 are redbirds. OK??????????????????????????????????????????????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ok ok so the 32s and the 38s look alike
or similar ????? !!!!!!!
Check to roster section of this site. It has pics of all car classes
38's atre corrugated to the top of the pantograph gate. 32's all th way to the top of the car.
Are you the internet version of Rich Little?
No, he's Salaam using a different screen name.
Rich Little would be doing Nixon impressions, no doubt.
12/29/99
Mr.Willie,
All "Redbirds" running today are IRT (narrow width) R-26,28,29,33 & 36. The BMT "Redbirds" (wide width), R-27,30's have been retired for several years. "Redbird" is the nicknamed applied to these cars that were chosen for the "graffitti free" program. First called "fox red", the car bodies were this darker red color with silver roof and black paint by the front and pantograph gates.
R-32,38,40,42,44,46,68,110B are wide width and stainless steel. Getting back to the Redbirds, back about 10 years ago I was told that there were some newly repainted "graffitti free" R-27's going out for scrap. I went down to the SBK yeard at 2nd Ave and 39th st and photographed them. The pain was so fresh althought not tacky, had the fresh paint smell. Even the pantograph gates had little abrasion. The cars inside were clean and painted also, no scratchitti then. It seems that R-27 and 30's were being chosen for the grafitti free program. These units were chosen,cleaned and repainted, however here's where it gets intersting. I guess the computer spat out car numbers of R-27s for scrap and these units although repainted were it!! The cars I were told never saw revenue service and were scrapped all freshly cleaned and repainted. Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing!!
Bill Newkirk
That's the TA for you.
I was reading in the paper this evening where there is another Hillside Brush Fire in the LA Area. This maynot have anything to do with Transit, but one of our own SEA BE$ACH FRED lives in Arcadia, Has anyone one heard from him the past couple of days.???
There was a big fire in Tujunga -- about 20 miles northwest of Arcadia. Another big one in Ojai, about a hundred miles away. And then just a couple nights ago a smaller one that got put out right away in Trabuco Canyon, about 10 miles from my place.
It IS the holidays, maybe Fred went visiting family & friends.
IIRC, Fred doesn't have a PC at home, he uses one at school or his daughter's when he's visiting. He's probably back home now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone try the Sea Beach???
There was a earlier posting by Fred Today, I sent him a reg e mail, we will wait and See, He lives in Arcadia.
Last night on the news I heard that a #2 train had somehow been disconnected from it's undercariage around 59th st. They said that it couldn't be moved and was being repaired in place. Any info on this?
9011 was the car involved. Maybe Steve can post the TT for those interested. The B side contact shoe beam on the number one truck was dropped, all four shoes were removed and all four shoe fuses were blown, indicating a possible derailment or electrical failure. Funny that the radio reported that trains were on or close to schedule. Out of curiousity, the piston travel was over seven inches on that truck. The brake shoes were in place and the linkage looked intact. What was the TT?
As a matter of fact, I had dinner with a friend and was waiting for an uptown #2 train at 34th St when it was pretty clear that something was amiss. As for the incident, the equalizer bar on one of the trucks of car #9011 split and 1/2 dropped off. The other half caused the train to go into emergency. The equalizer bar is a piece of steel that rides on top of both axles on the side of the truck and supports the lower end of the equalizer springs. The bar is over 1"thick and about 10" wide. In order to move the car the bolster had to be jacked up and blocks of wood wedged into the truck to support it. This is the just 2nd time that I can remember a cracked equalizer bar. About 2 years ago, a cracked equalizer was found on an R-32 while being inspected at jamaica Shop.
What do shop personnel have to do as a result? Would they have to take the enitre truck assembly out? The truck sounds defective if I read the post correctly.
Was the set taken up into the Bronx, or did head to 207th St?
-Stef
The truck is simply replaced. Done on a drop-table at 207th St., this is done relatively quickly. Logically, the car should have been moved directly to 207th street. With equalizer springs on one side and blocks on the other, the car ride will not be as stabile as normal. Once the defective truck is removed, both halves of the equalizer bar will be sent for metalurgical analysis. This type of failure is taken very seriously by the Division of Car Equipment...
It makes one wonder just how often this sort of thing occurred back in the dark days of deferred maintenance.
Deffered maintainence has nothing to do with it. It's age, metal fatigue and father time catching up on million mile cars.
EQ bar eh? Damn! Now we know what happens when one cracks to the point of catastrophic failure.
At least now chances are something like that will be caught during a routine inspection, as Steve alluded to.
You know, come to think of it, I did remember the two-by-fours under the truck's equalizers. I'll make note of that for future reference. How did all four shoe fuses blow? The portion of track between 50 and 59 Street has third rail on one side only unless my location of the incident is wrong. If the shoe beam collapsed during the BIE, I'd suppose the second fuse on the rail would blow but not all four. Where was 9011 in the consist?
Likely, all four shoe fuses did not blow. Standard practice would be for the RCI to break them. From the report I read, customers were moved from the head pair, the south 8 cars were cut away and wrong-railed back into the station. Hence, i would assume that 9011 was the first or more likely the second car in the consist.
9011 was dropped on 7 track south. If it came down the flyover, it would have been north on the mainline unless the main shop requested it south. The shoe fuses were blown, not cut and pulled. Why remove the fuses before all the shoes were removed? If I were working the response truck, I'd have knocked the shoe pins out after slippering to avoid any possibility of contact to the rail due to the lowered height, if it had caused a BIE. What would explain six to seven inch piston travel on the affected truck?
Educated guess:
The equalizer bar rests upon the journals. If the bar is no longer in correct alignment then it's possible the axles are no longer perfectly square in relation to each other. That would be why the brake cylinder piston is over extended. The wheel is now farther away from the shoe than normal. Now it's true the EQ bar and the journal slide up and down within the truck frame. So I really am not sure this is possible because the truck's frame should still be holding the axles in place.
On the other hand I have seen quite a few R-33's with over extended pistons and worn out shoes. If at inspection the car inspector doesn't ratchet back to 0 the automatic slack adjuster and the manual slack adjuster, then that happens. Or if the car simply doesn't get inspected......A likely event considering no one saw a crack that had to have begun some time ago. It didn't just happen all of a sudden.
I wonder if the pedestals on that truck hadn't been spread open when that eq. bar broke, causing the axles to go out of tram and the excessive piston travel.
That's along the lines I had been thinking.
Another very long buzzzzzzzzzzzz. The equalized bar does not space the axles. The truck frame has two pedistal castings on either side. The journal bearings slide into the pedistals. The equalizer bars mearly sit on top of the journals.
I said that. It was a theory that possibly the loss of the eq bar spread those pedastals apart when the halves dug into the road bed. Lotta kinetic energy there.
What going on with the 5:44 am train from Port Jeff? Every morning
since the Penn Station fire, it has been diverted to Hunterspoint Ave,
causing major conjestion at Jamaica as it has to switch over from
Track 1.
Unfortunately it's going to remain that way until the damaged section (Track 18?) is available again. There's a note on the LIRR website (www.lirr.org) which lists all of the trains which are being cancelled, combined or diverted for the duration of the repairs.
Chuck
Incredible! The LIRR is actually using its site to give people current information!
It makes me nervious when they combine/cancel trains. I'm always afraid they'll say: "Hey! That worked OK and none of the commuters beat up any on-board personnel!. Let's make the changes permanent."
I don't understand why it would cause "major conjestion" (sic) at Jamaica, being switched to Hunterspoint from track 1. It only needs to make ONE crossover to get to Hunterspoint, it's not as though it has to saw back and forth, in and out of a few tracks to get access to Hunterspoint.
yesterday Amtrak and NJT trains were delayed due to slow speed orderrs from a truck striking a bridge (truck too tall!).
For our engineering types some questions:
1- Does slow speed reduce stress on the bridge (safer?)
2- how expensive would it be to plane the roads and lower the grade so the clearance is raised on the existing bridges. I realize they would have to be over a period of time
====
2- how expensive would it be to plane the roads and lower the grade so the clearance is raised on the existing bridges
====
It would probably be cheaper to teach the drivers how to read the bridge clearance signs.
"It would probably be cheaper to teach the drivers how to read the bridge clearance signs."
Nobody who drives in New York, especially truck drivers, could be bothered by such a trivial thing as regulatory signs. That international "no truck" sign seen at every Parkway entrance is routinely ignored; just about every time I turn on the traffic report, there's another "misplaced tractor trailor" one place or another.
You could chalk this up to ignorance or just not caring. Once while on foot, I saw a double-tractor trailer about to enter the Belt from 4th Avenue in Bay Ridge and yelled to him that no trucks were allowed. He responded with the universal symbol of visual belligerence.
Here in Boston, Storrow Drive (9' maximum clearance) is routinely disrupted by various sized trucks striking overhead structures, usually with highly inspiring results. (roof sheared off, roof opened like sardine can, truck wedged in tightly and so forth)
The interval until the next occurrence is seldom more than a month.
BTW - these are not semi-trailer rigs, they are delivery trucks, moving vans, rentals and similar vehicles, where the driver just isn't conscious of vehicle height! This is the route he/she takes in the family car, why not with this truck? The offending operator learns his lesson, but there are always more!
Gerry, don't forget the "maximum" that occurs the first week of September -- when the college kids and their parents arrive with the one-way U-Haul! I lived along Memorial Drive near Massachusetts Avenue when I was in school, and that week we'd bring lawn chairs out to watch the festivities!
(Back on topic)
That same week of the year it's fun to watch the new college students learn to navigate the MBTA. I recall my freshman year waiting for a trolley at the Fenway Station after leaving a party at 1:00 a.m. Someone was nice enough to yell over to me that it was a four hour wait for the next trolley! Yours truly learned then that New York rules don't work in Bahstin.
[Here in Boston, Storrow Drive (9' maximum clearance) is routinely disrupted by various sized trucks striking overhead structures, usually with highly inspiring results ... BTW - these are not semi-trailer rigs, they are delivery trucks, moving vans, rentals and similar vehicles, where the driver just isn't conscious of vehicle height!]
Better a moving van or rental truck than a propane tanker!
Hey Gerry-
U-Haul(at least the last time I rented a truck) gave a list of roads you must stay off of(and I had a regular cargo van). Storrow Drive was one of them.
Jeremy
>For our engineering types some questions:
>1- Does slow speed reduce stress on the bridge (safer?)
>2- how expensive would it be to plane the roads and lower the grade >so the clearance is raised on the existing bridges. I realize they >would have to be over a period of time
Well, the answer to question 1 is yes. Slower speeds mean less stress. Also, the slow speed may be because you're crossing over to another track on an unaffected section of the bridge and not knowing it.
As for planing the roads, it's only feasible to take a few inches off, and even after they plane it, the DOT will come back and dump more asphalt in to bring it back to where it was. The problem is that to get 14' or so of clearance everywhere would mean relocating utility lines and such, and really isn't feasible.
The funny thing is that all of the signs are supposed to be posted with a clearance at least 6" (some times 1')less than the actual minimum. So, if there was 12' of clearance at the crown of the road, the bridge should be posted for 11'6" or less. I've even seen contractors working for the TA hit the structure with thier equipment.
In some cases, they won't resurface pavement which lies directly beneath a railroad bridge. I have seen several examples of this in Chicago. One is on Kedzie Ave. as it ducks beneath the tracks along the Stevenson Expressway; another is on, I believe, Milwaukee Ave. as it passes beneath the Red line's elevated structure. Nothing but bare cobblestones is visible, with streetcar tracks still in place.
I know I'm weighing in late here, but the points seem to have been covered. I've been involved with attempting to lower roadways which pass under RR bridges. It often is not feasible for the reasons mentioned in addition to utilities beneath the streets which also must be lowered (shaving or milling a couple of inches of asphalt off just won't work). Keep in mind that, in many of these cases, the roads duck under at severe slopes, and any increase of clearance will cause the slopes to be steeper. The clearance has to be consistent for the entire length of the underpass, so the "corners" of the structure are often the critical points (and usually the points at which collisions occur).
More often than not these days, the accidents are related to two things:
1. (mentioned) Someone rents a truck and isn't used to its size. The first thing they do is drive it on a route they usually drive with their car. Sooner or later this results in trouble since the usual route may have warning signs, etc, but the driver has seen these so much they blend into the scenery.
2. Improperly loaded flatbeds, where no one bothers to check load heights, widths, etc. Two big accidents which recently occurred in the Phila area (on I-76, the Schuylkill Expressway) involved this sort of situation. In one, an overwidth piece of machinery hit a close side clearance and was shoved into an oncoming car, killing a passenger in the car. In the other, a trailer with too many crushed cars on it overturned when the load scraped an overpass. There have been many others where trucks hit sign structures, overpasses, etc.
Here in Syracuse we have a low CSX bridge over a four-lane highwaythat does it's part against the competition. Why, just today I heard it got another victim. *** WARNING *** To all truckers Stay the #%*& off Onondaga Lake Parkway!!!
From the Dual Mode detective files...
When the last set of LIRR schedules came out (Nov. 15th), there was no indication that any dual modes were being assigned to the Oyster Bay branch.
I noticed something interesting, though, on the LIRR website. In the description of service changes as a result of the recent fire, there are the following two items --
"The 5:48 AM train from Oyster Bay to NY will be canceled at Jamaica." and
"The 6:10 PM from New York to Oyster Bay (7:34 PM) will start from Jamaica. Customers will be on the 6:13 PM from New York to Long Beach and transfer at Jamaica."
The LIRR schedules list both of these trains as being OB-Jamaica runs with a change at Jamaica for Penn. Interestingly, according to the schedules, the 6:10 from Penn goes only to Jamaica for the sole purpose of connecting to the Jamaica to Oyster Bay train. This would make it a prime candidate for "stealth dual mode service".
Do any of the Oyster Bay regulars know if these trains were running as dual modes before the fire?
Chuck
There are scheduled direct NYP<->Oyster bay trains, but so far, as far as I know, they've all been run by a MU - extra between NYP and Jamaica, and then old equipment (i.e. classic) from Jamaica.
However, just the other night, I got on a train of bilevels, that had 4 cars, and a DM engine. I wouldn't imagine that it had been used for Penn station service, though, because I don't think they're running one engine trains into Penn -- I could be wrong though.
I suppose that if amtrak can get away with one-engine consists into Penn without gapping problems, LIRR should also be able to.
Oh yeah, the DM engine I had the other day shut down at roslyn, and it took them about 20 minutes to "Reboot" the stupid thing..
DM's on the Oyster Bay line? Hey, I got a really cool bridge in NYC I wanna sell you....
BTW - the 4:49pm got canceled today, on the 5:10, I was talking to a guy who says that that train gets canceled about once a week...
Had some problems posting this last night. Here goes:Yesterday evening on the red line, I was on the train causing the delay for the first time. I got to Farragut North and waited 10 minutes for a train heading to Grosvenor/Shady Grove. It came and I got on. I was in the 1st car and heard Central Control say "Train 218 at Farragut North, unload at DuPont Circle" or something like that. Then, we were discharged at Farragut. I heard CC tell the operator to move to the pocket north of Farragut North bus also saw a train sitting there (any ideas why?). The train sat for a few minutes and a WMATA employee who was in the cab with the operator went through the train looking for passengers still aboard. He came back and the doors opened and an announcement was made saying the train was in service and we could board again and we started off again. During our trip the operator was told to go all the way to Shady Grove (he was originally going to Grosvenor). I also heard comments about a train turning around at Van Ness but that never happened. At Friendship Heights where I got off, I asked the operator what happened and he said there was a short. I accepted this answer and headed off towards the mezzanine. The operator attempted to close the doors. For about 3 minutes, they kept opening and closing the doors. The operator announced that the passengers in the 4th or 5th car and then only 5th should help him slide the door shut (the problem appeared to be in the 4th because that is where the light was still on from my view). Is that safe at all? What were to happen if the door were to slide open between Friendship and Bethesda? Then, they took the train out of service and kept it that way. I got some pics of the crowded Friendship Heights platform. Is having passengers slide the door shut and continuing the trip safe? If it were to open, what were to happen? It doesn't sound safe to me. It was worth missing 2 Ride-On buses to see how safe Metro really is considering the fact all the buses say "Safety is our #1 priority."
ha ha, told u i was safer just getting off.....jeez, those things are REALLY kinda dangerous....if the door had opened, isn't it possible the pressure in an underground tunnel and a fast moving train would have been extremly, well, bad? any scientists (i'm currently not doing so well in 8th grade physical science) who can tell me?
I was just on the T's web site looking for what their service plan for New Year's is, and there appears to be a green line designated as M to Mattapan. What is this and when did it start?
Thanks, in advance.
That's the Mattapan-Ashmont "high-speed line." While from the public's standpoint it's a part of the Red Line (as it begins at the Ashmont terminal), it is operated by the Light Rail Division (Green Line). The cars on this line are wartime PCCs, which are in the midst of a major overhaul. PCCs will live on in Boston well into the 2000s!
Sounds confusing to me. It should just be called the red line.
<>
Well you are right...and it probably should...
but the T has never been known to make changes easily...after all the colors of the other cars coordinate to their line name(red, orange, and blue) so people wouldn't understand. You would think they would at least be on the Red Line frequency....nope, they are on the same frequency as a branch of the system nowhere near it!
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Mattapan-Ashmont line is part of the Red Line from a public perspective. It's that way on maps and on schedules.
It's only internally to the "T" that it's part of the Light Rail Division, which also operates the Green Line. This is because PCCs operate exclusively on the line, and the Light Rail Division historically has operated and maintained them.
So from this perspective, I don't think it's confusing; only rail fans and others "in the know" even ask the question. The general public sees it as an extension of the Red Line.
Once upon a time, the cars assigned to Mattapan were actually painted in a 'Red Line' scheme. Those were beat up 'Dallas Cars' which were replaced with green wartime rebuilds from Arborway, then green picture window cars, and then another group of green wartime rebuilds. Since these cars were considered part of a larger fleet, they were not repainted for Mattapan service. The present rebuild is putting the cars back in the 1940's scheme of traction orange and cream with cherry(maroon) belt rail and silver roof. Thus we have orange cars, operated by the Green Line, marketed as the Red Line, and being rebuilt in the Blue Line's carhouse.
Identity crisis anyone? :)
Gerry
Nicely put, Gerry. It's a good thing the Silver Line is still in the planning stages!
Silver Line? Tell us more!
The Silver Line is the planned replacement for the old Orange Line el along Washington Street (part I) and also to connect South Station with South Boston (part II). Don't get your hopes up for rail -- the current plan is to use hybrid/alternative fuel buses in mixed traffic and segregated busways. The plans are still fluid -- there's a lot of politicking going on! Gerry can add more detail I'm sure.
What I would like to hear more about(and I bet the NY subtalkers would get a kick out of this), is how do the PCC's get on and off the Mattapan line? I remember hearing the story when we hosted ARM a few years ago, but maybe Todd or Gerry could fill in....
Isn't it something to the effect that the PCC's are towed after hours by a Red Line car/train??(the problem is I don't really remember most of the story, so I don't know where they were going...)
Gerry, Todd, do you know what I am talking about or am I out in left field here??
I'm pretty sure they go by truck. The tow-on-the-red-line deal sounds like fun, but it's not practical. For example, the PCCs are being rebuilt at the Blue Line shops in East Boston. How'd you do that?
Yes, the present method of transfer is by way of special low-bed trucks.
HOWEVER
Back in the late 50s and 60s, Mattapan cars (of all types) were serviced at the Eliot Sq. shops of the CAmbridge-Dorchester Subway. The car to be serviced would be run around the loop at Ashmont and spotted on the outbound track near Codman Yard. A rapid transit train would run through a crossover connecting the easternmost yard lead to the outbound track of the high speed line and couple on using a special adapter to solve the height/size differences between the two couplers. The train would tow the PCC through the subway, go around the loop at Eliot Yard, and push it into the shop. Returning, the car would be looped at Codman, then pushed onto the Mattapan Line. One of the BSRA picture books shows an all-electric PCC being towed in this manner. Eliot was also the point where cars were exchanged with the rest of the system, via a ramp from Bennett St. Carhouse.
Prior to 1955, there was a direct connection to Mattapan via Blue Hill Av., Seaver St., Columbus Av. and Washington St.
In 1959, the remaining Cambridge streetcar lines were converted to trackless trolleys, and the last possible connection was severed, though the use of Eliot for maintenance continued for some time.
From 1952 to about 1955 it was possible to transfer a car from Mattapan to Orient Heights on its own wheels. The Cambridge-Dorchester tow would bring the car to the subway portal at Kendall Sq., Cambridge. An East Boston train, running on a 'bug', would couple onto the PCC, towing it through a crossover onto street trackage at the top of the portal ramp, then the wrong way over the westbound roadway of the Longfellow Bridge, and down Cambridge St., entering the East Boston Tunnel via a portal at North Russell St. To my knowledge, such a move was never done, though East Boston cars traversed that connection often since their heavy maintenance was done at Eliot. The opening of Orient Heights Carhouse eliminated the need for the connection, which was soon abandoned.
Of course the stub tunnel to North Russell St. has been eyed as part of a possible Blue Line extension to Charles to provide a connection between the two lines. I an NOT holding my breath! :)
Gerry
And the colors don't really coordinate any more either. Although the Mattapan-Ashmont line is Red Line from a customer perspective and Green Line from an operational perspective, the PCCs are being rehabbed again and painted orange.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It started in 1929 and uses an abandoned branch of the New Haven RR.
To be precise it uses two abandoned branches:
From Ashmont to Cedar Grove Cemetary it follows the Shawmut Branch ROW, which the rest of the Red Line follows from Harrison Sq. to Ashmont.
From Cedar Grove Cemetary to Mattapan it follows the Mattapan Branch which left the Old Colony Main at Neponset and followed the Neponset River to Mattapan. The Mattapan Branch remained in service until about 1980, and was torn up in the 1990s. Between Cedar Grove Cemetary and Milton (Lower Mills) the Mattapan Branch was located on both sides of the High Speed Line, on the north side it extended almost to Central Av.
After exiting the tunnel from Seventh Ave. on the Brooklyn Queens Crosstown Line we arrive at Fourth Avenue. At the station the G uses the express track to cross over to the northbound local track. If the train stayed on the express track there is a track that dives down under the elevated part and is not seen again. I once saw an R train come up from the tunnel. I have theorized that there is some sort of connection. If anybody knows where the track leads to please tell me
This track leads to a dead end. It is NOT a connection to the 4th Ave. BMT, as many think it is.
An R train on the F line?! Probably during a time when the R was being rerouted. Or probably due to the fact that the F, R, G and sometimes E have R-46’s assigned to them.
Just like the B at Seventh Avenue-Park Slope or the old H at Jay Street
What are the reasons that transit systems like Denver's and LA's use the kind of fare collection where you buy a ticket and validate it? What makes it better than the systems with gates, etc, that REQUIRE a ticket? Are the gates extremely expensive or something?
I would think that you would lose so much revenue from people who don't pay their fare and having to pay the transit police to try to catch fare-beaters. etc.
It seems to just invite people not to pay. Seems kinda odd to me...
From my recliner,
Brandon
It actually works very well. Fare evasion is under 2% on most systems - under 1% on some - which I think compares favorably with New York. It's the norm throughout Europe as well. Most people are fundamentally honest.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure if it would work on the subway, but you sure could go to that system on the commuter railroads. The key to the system is BIG fines if you get caught stealing a ride, but fines don't scare the homeless since they have no money. Middle income commuter rail riders would have reason to fear the fines, the time lost due to being taken into custody. In the south, if you're from out of state and you get caught speeding, they lock you up until you pay. The LIRR and MetroNorth could use take the same approach.
You'd have to take away the option of buying tickets on the train, and make sure tickets could be bought in the stations. Vending machines would have to be installed, and would have to work. But just think of the money they'd save on conductors! You'd just have some roving bands to spot check trainloads full.
In the south, if you're from out of state and you get caught speeding, they lock you up until you pay.
One of the great myths about the South. It was true, briefly, in Mississippi and Louisiana during the '30s, '40s, and '50s, but enforcement was mostly in small towns and usually only if you were a GI or had a permanent tan. But it's never been the law anywhere else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[In the south, if you're from out of state and you get caught speeding, they lock you up until you pay.]
[One of the great myths about the South. It was true, briefly, in Mississippi and Louisiana during the '30s, '40s, and '50s, but enforcement was mostly in small towns and usually only if you were a GI or had a permanent tan. But it's never been the law anywhere else.]
It may still be the law in many places even if actual practice is different. There's an interstate agreement, called the "No-Bail Compact" or something to that effect, which provides that a person from one signatory state will not be required to post cash bond (and therefore won't risk being taken into custody) if cited for a traffic offense in another signatory state. It doesn't apply to serious offenses such as DWI, operating under suspension, or racing. The most important point is that not all states are parties to the agreement, as far as I know there are 10 or 15 non-signatories. A resident of a non-signatory state who gets a traffic citation elsewhere, or a resident of any state who is cited in a non-signatory state, can at least in theory be required to post a cash or surety bond.
I'd forgotten about that (when you drive so that you don't get tickets it's not relevant knowledge). But wouldn't that have been superceded by the Uniform Driver's Licensing Act that accompanied the repeal of the 55 mph speed limit a few years ago? I know that law set certain guidelines within which one state could not refuse to recognize a license or permit issued by another state, even if their own laws for issuing such licenses or permits differed - it's why my daughter was legally able to drive in New Jersey and New York City on a North Carolina learner's permit at age 15 and with a full license at age 16, even though residents of New Jersey and New York could not. AND, on the flip side, it's why North Carolina can legally consider anyone whose license doesn't have a photo on it as being unlicensed - non-photo licenses are outside the guidelines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The interstate agreement I mentioned earlier is the Nonresident Violator Compact of 1977. There are about 10 non-signatory states. As far as I know, it was not affected by enactment of the Uniform Driver's Licensing Act.
OK - guess I can still say I learn something new every day!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems to me that enforcement of this system cannot possibly be made truly evenhanded. The businessman commuters may very well pay their fares, but neighborhood teenagers very likely often won't. Which means - who do you think will be targeted more for spot checks? Leading to protests - can you say "racial profiling"?
If the chance of getting caught is small, it is just human nature that some people will risk it. And if the price of getting caught is high (criminal record??), the result will be an increased perception that "the law" is unfair, and that legal consequences depend more on chance than they do on people's actual conduct. Not good for society.
Of course, this is just speculation on my part. We will see how this system is perceived by the people of Newark in a year or so, when it is no longer novel.
That is not how spot checks work. In Germany it works as follows: A typical 90-minute ticket may cost DM 2.00 (about $1.10) when bought from a machine. No checks are made by streetcar (stassenbahn)or bus drivers and there are no turnstiles at the subways (U-Bahn or S-Bahn). Periodically inspectors get on a bus, car, or train. The doors close, and while the vehicle is moving EVERYONE gets inspected. If you do not have a ticket, you must buy one from the inspector for DM 40.00 or 50.00 (about $22-28). If you can't afford that then you are arrested for fare evasion. A polizeiwagen is conveniently waiting at the next stop. So you can take the risk, it just requires a high monetary price for not having a ticket. They have signs all over the trains saying "Kein Schwarzfahren" (No riding illegally).
In Baltimore, on the Light Rail, if you are inspected and don't have a ticket, you get off with a policeman at the next stop and are issued the equivalent of a traffic ticket with a fine of from $30-285.
Note that I once saw a guy who had a meticulously made but fraudulent pass handcuffed and taken to a police car.
Note that since EVERYONE in the vehicle is inspected, the canard about racial profiling does not apply.
[In Baltimore, on the Light Rail, if you are inspected and don't have a ticket, you get off with a policeman at the next stop and are issued the equivalent of a traffic ticket with a fine of from $30-285.]
Seems like an enormous range. Are the higher fines for repeat offenders?
NO. The MTA Police do the inspecting. BTW, the guy with the fradulent Day Pass (cost: $3.00, good all day until 12. Midnite. Such a deal.) was arrested ON THE SPOT, handcuffed, and booked (by the MTA Cops) at Central Booking. The charge(s): Failure to pay the fare ($30-285) and Forgery (a felony).
I was on the car that this happened on, the other passengers were awed at the efficiency of the MTA Cops. When one of the cops explained what had happened, the whole car applauded.
As an aside, on Wednesday 6 bus operators (all from NorthWest Division) were arrested by MTA and Baltimore City Police and charged with theft, abuse of MTA property, and several other felonies for the sale of over 1500 improperly generated Day Passes (the bus fareboxes can issue several types of paper pass tickets including Student trip passes and Day Passes.) and selling them to a broker (who was arrested and charged separately) at 1.50 each.
Needless to say, those 6 will become long-term guests of one of Maryland's fine penal facilites. Very foolish.
Someone on nyc.transit had a theory about this. Something about people being honest if they think they're being watched; the fear of being caught was enough to insure the honest actions.
-Hank
That system could work on a transit system with not a lot of passengers. On a busy system like New York's, it would be impossible for a cop to walk through and crowded subway and check everyone.
Hey folks. Just thought I'd give you a little sample of what you'll be hearing in the B division from 1-1-2000 on.
Hey folks. Just thought I'd give you a little sample of what you'll be hearing in the B division from 1-1-2000 on.
That sounds like a Standard.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Listening to it again, maybe an R-1/9.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Listening to it a third time - yup - R-1/9.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It's probably heypaul's CC or LL tape, both of which feature R-1/9s. On the LL tape, the compressors really stand out.
Doesn't matter - it's music to my ears!
--Mark
Doesn't matter - it's music to my ears!
--Mark
Its music to mine also. You would like my "start windows" file. It is part of a tape that I made of the Museum Lo-V during a fan trip in the 1970's. Download, unzip and enjoy:
lo-v1.zip
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Since I don't have a computer I can't download zip files. Is there any way to send it as a wav or ram??
I'll second that!
Following is a list of station platform lengths of IND stations along the Grand Concourse line in the Bronx. Note that the codes for the 167th Street, 170th Street, and 174th-175th Street stations are all approximate, as the chaining code information is none too clear (and, in the case of 170th and 174th-175th Streets, based upon the code at the southernmost end of the station), i.e. 1474+50 to 1475+00 within 45 instead of 50 feet in one concentrated section.
205th Street [terminus] : start 1651+60, end 1658+20
Bedford Park Boulevard : start 1618+95, end 1625+55
Kingsbridge Road : start 1589+60, end 1596+20
Fordham Road : C1/3 platform start 1565+85, end 1572+55; C2/4 platform start 1566+25, end 1572+85
182nd-183rd Street : start 1545+30, end 1551+90
Tremont Avenue : start 1521+55, end 1528+15
174th-175th Street : start 1499+70, end 1506+45
170th Street : start 1473+95, end 1480+65
167th Street : start 1448+50, end 1455+10
161st Street-River Avenue : start 1415+00, end 1421+60
155th Street-8th Avenue : start 1378+15, end 1384+75
Next: Fulton-Cranberry tube stations and Prospect Park line.
Back in the late 1950's, I remember the SIRT running through a very rural setting with many grade crossings. There was a grade crossing elimination project in the early 1960's, but I want to know if the entire line was re-located east of its original placement. I went there recently and it looks like that is what happened.
The grade crossing eliminations on the SIRT placed the line on its original alignment or close to it.
Temporary tracks (shoo-flys) were built adjacent to the original alignment while construction was going on.
What's good source to find pics of the SIRT in its pre-1960s rural glory? You sent me a good picture of a steam engine awhile ago.
I know Henderson's Gotham Turnstiles has some good ones.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There were a bunch posted by Joe Testagrose awhile back in alt.binaries.pictures.rail newsgroup; whether they were reposted on New York Subway Resources website, I am not sure.
There IS an archive site for a.b.p.r newsgroup that goes back a year or more, not sure of the URL for it.
Ah! Found the URL -- it is:
http://www.railfan.net/railpix/ABPR
Speaking of SIRT, will it be first to get R-143s and an ATP upgrade, or is that the Eastern BMT.
SIRT will never get new cars ,not until the R44si are falling apart.I've been pushing for overhaulded M-1 LIRR CARS for SIR Higher speeds more comfort 'ie' better service ,more riders. As for the Eastern Division,word around town is,the L line will be the lucky golden boy for the R143 cars.[maybe M too]. The J LINE will not get any,by the way.oh well.
Yes, the L is going to be totally R-143, with the rest of the R-143s going to the M, which is still going to be partially R-42.
Nick (aka Knight of the Golden Rose)
Its interesting to speculate on the future equipment of the SIRT. Rebuilt M1's are an excellent idea (remember the ZIP cars down there in the early 70s - I do). M1s are also FRA compliant for whatever that's worth. That could be the eventual key to getting the SIRTover to NJ (Newark Airport and/or the Corridor, Journal Square)
Seeleye Stevenson did an excellent study a while back that recommended converting the SIR into a PATCO-type system - high speed, few stations, mucho park and ride. Neat ideas.
Its also interesting to consider that NJT has sold its older Arrows to a broker, and they are available for about $150K each. I guess the bodies are good; they too might make excellent SIRT cars if rebuilt. No need to have 4 doors on a 75 foot car on the SIRT.
I always thought a neat idea would be to carfloat the trains over to Manhattan on the ferries and build some isolated track under the FDR Drive to bring people up along Water Street. A sort of semi-light rail type operation. That land is an eyesore anyway - just parking during the day.
Im certain that if people could remain aboard the train all the way to Manhattan ridership would go up. If the ferries can handle trucks Im certain they can handle trains. It will never happen though! Cheaper and more effextive than express buses.
12/31/99
The idea of S.I.Rwy buying and overhauling USED LIRR M-1's is laughable at best. The LIRR has a history of running it's equipment into the ground and I don't mean subway either. Despite their age, it just wouldn't pay to overhaul the M-1's. The episode of the MP-72's going over there was due to a high failure rate of the old SIRT MU's and a strike at St.Louis Car Company that bogged down deliveries of the R-44's (MUE-2's). The "ZIP" (MP-75 World's Fair) cars never went over to Staten Island. The "ZIP"'s major stumbling block was a lack of brake shoes on their trucks, taking longer to stop. When they were converted to "push-pull" diesel coaches, they never ran in solid consists. They always mixed them with the (ex)MP-72's.
Bill Newkirk
I disagree with your opinions on the suitability of M1s for SIRT service.
There is a substantial difference in the reliability and amenities one would need or consider for a 14-mile SIRT trip at relatively low speeds vs. a LIRR trip in from Ronkonkonma to NYP via the crowded East River tunnels where performance is critical. Despite any mechanical problems the M1s may have at age 30+, the primary determinant of suitability for SIRT service is the carbody conditon (cracks, corrosion, etc). A rebuild could be a fairly good way to make about 70 R44s available in the short term in an era of increasing subway ridership.
Also dont forget that in the 60s/early 70s SIRT had a car shortage due to several disastrous fires. As I understand it the FRA had some problems with the idea of bringing R1/9s or B types down there, since at the time the line hosted freight. Hence the decision to use some LIRR MUs.
Anyway several properties are looking at rebuilds now due to the ever-increasing cost of new equipment. Trinity Rail is an example (they're using rebuilt RDCs). The determinant is what works for the acquiring property, not what the former owner did/didn't do or preferred/disliked. There's no reason why rebuilt M1s wouldnt work in a captive fleet on Staten Island; certainly none we could determine here. I'm sure they could find 60 to 80 candidates if they tried.
The MBTA is rebuilding PCCs and hopes to get 70+ years out of them; MUNI did the same with cars SEPTA had no use for, they worked out just fine. Its a function of available resources and preferences at the time.
12/31/99
Conrad,
Your disagreement with my post is OK by me.
Did you look at these reasons why it may not work.
1) MONEY - Would the MTA fork over money for rebuilding these spent comnmuter rail cars.
2) CONDITION - Don't let the stainless steel fool you. Metal fatigue may be showing up that may jeopardize a rebirth elsewhere. The LIRR M-1's though a little older than Metro North's are beat to hell. The Long Island runs 24-7, not so with Metro North.
3) RIDING PUBLIC & POLITICIANS - Although gussied up and overhauled for service, the Staten island people and their politicos would fume at the thought of USED , even overhauled equipment on their railroad! THEY WOULD WANT NEW !!!
4) Would the MTA want to spend the bucks go do this? Another five or six years down the road it would be time to retire all R-44's. By that time a new type car dedicated to this line would be designed and ready for bid. A new car that's better than the R-44 and SOAC but shorter than the M-1's, with less doors than the R-44.
My friend is Superintendent of transportation of S.I.Rwy. I'll seriously bring up this idea without making a joke of it. I have another friend who is a LIRR engineer who knows certain people on the inside and I'll do the same. If they both rave that this was the greatest idea since sliced bread shooting down my idea, I'll personally go down to St.George with salt,pepper and A-1 steak sauce and take a bite out of a third rail protection board! Fiberglass only, I'm alergic to creosote !!!
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!
I have all the SIRT pics that Joe posted. If Dave wants to repost them, I'll upload them to a site he can get them from, after we secure permission.
-Hank
Thanks for the information. I remember the line as it looked about 40 years ago, when my family used to take me out to Staten Island to see my grandmother's grave. I went there recently and found that the line looked different from the way I remembered. I understood the grade crossing abatements, I just wondered how far the line was re-located. I found the cemetary after some asking around.
another question recieved by the city section of the new york times:
"While passing the Coney Island subway yard as I drive west on the Belt Parkway, I have noticed, parked in the middle of the yard, a yellow school bus mounted atop a subway chassis. What purpose does this bus-on-rails serve?"
...sounds like an inspection car to me. does anyone have any inside - or general - information on what these cars do and why they look that way?
Yep inspection car for when the 75 foot cars were being considered.
When I was on the CI Yard tour back in the Spring I was told it is used by the Fire Dept. to inspect subway tunnels (besides whatever chores it does).
BTW, back in the 70's that car was sporting the TA silver w/blue stripe paint scheme.
Doug aka BMTman
Click here for a New Year's card for all of you!
the same to you sir.
and a Happy Healthy New Year to everyone else.
Allan Berlin
I took that 3 this morning with half Pelham and Livonia cars. Here is the car sequence with the first car being Manhattan bound. 1900,1899,1898,1897,1896,2154,2121,2137,2131. I do not know if this is permanent...........
3TM
It may only ne temporary, 3TM. I wonder what's going here. The set's (1896-1900) linked, so why would they put it on a line that uses singles?
Then again, something may be brewing here. Some linked sets could come to this line and mingle with the singles, so some of the existing singles can go over to the 7. It sure seems like something big is about to happen.
-Stef
My guess is that 4 singles from each train go to Flushing. That way, the 7 will have 11 car trains.
Or, as Steve Allen's song would suggest, this could be the start of something big.
Does anyone know where I can get a trackmap of the Brighton Line prior to its rebuild in 1906? Is there one on this site?
Train Buff Headquarters
Try the Book Brooklyn Elevateds. I know they have some old Brighton Track Maps
I believe that those maps show the line after the Grade Crossing elimination work of 1905-1907
Tracks of New York, #2 (Alan Paul Kahn / Jack May) looks like it has track maps, but they may be around 1910 as well.
--Mark
Yes, The Tracks of NY vol 2 maps show the Brighton line as it was after the 1905-07 rebuild. Can't recall any maps that do show the Brighton line before that period. Maybe some Moody's will show the entire BRT system during those years.
Incidentally, another way to view The Tracks of NY vol 2 maps is via the excellent layout that Joe Korman has written for the Bahn simulator. Joe Korman has written many layouts detailing the NYC subway system at different points in time. One of these shows the Brooklyn elevated system as it was in 1910. These are all fascinating to Subway buffs. Maybe Joe will eventually do the Brooklyn elevated system from the years prior to the Brighton rebuild?
I have some maps of the original Brighton line posted on Rapid Transit.net The short answer to your question, is that the original Brighton Line route is as follows- Brighton Beach to Prospect Park is the original route but elevated an depressed, then up the Franklin Av shuttle to Fulton Street, again, original route, but elevated and depressed.
Like several other roads, this line started as a steam powered grade level way to get people to the beach resorts and race tracks.
Steam locomotives were banned within the city of Brooklyn from 1861 to 1878. This is the reason the steam roads began along the outskirts of town. At first, you had to take a horse drawn "trolley" to get downtown, shorty thereafter, the "els" connected into the grade level steam lines, and about 1906 all were under trolley wire at grade, with 3rd rail being used on the els. About 1906, the cars were set up with trolley poles and 3rd rail shoes. Some cars were converted from steam coaches, others were always electric.
The other interesting thing about the Brighton Line, is that for a while, several trolley lines fed into it as a way to get to the beach. It had trolley interchange connections at Prospect Park, Cortelyou Road (Av C) and Neptune Av.
I am looking for the record of the longest time spent riding on the NYC subway system.
I rode 5 hours straight
There have been continuous rides documented in excess of 24 hours. Some of the other regular posters were participants in them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There have been continuous rides documented in excess of 24 hours. Some of the other regular posters were participants in them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Certain records for riding the entire system in the least amount of time that were set in the 1960's cannot really be challanged anymore, because there are less lines and stations these days than there were in 1968. Ol' Myrt, 3rd Ave., Culver Shuttle are gone. It wouldn't be fair for someone to say he broke a record set back then, when there was more stations to cover.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The trains are also slower now
The trains are also slower now
I forgot about that. That' another thing that will screw up a record. With the snailway of today, you can set a record for the longest time it takes to cover the system ;-)
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And to an extent I think that's what the original poster had in mind - what is the longest continuous number of hours anyone has spent in the system on one fare (at least that's how I interpreted it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And to an extent I think that's what the original poster had in mind - what is the longest continuous number of hours anyone has spent in the system on one fare (at least that's how I interpreted it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the longest time anyone spent on one fare?
I'll bet the record was set by one of the homeless. The dude got on the subway when the fare was 10¢ and he's still riding!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Do you know i have rode 32 diffirent subway cars since 1974, here the list that i rode on R1,4,6,7,9,10,12,14,15,16,17,21,22,26,27,28,29,30,32,33,36,38,40Slant,40M,42,44,46,62,62a,68,68a, & 110a expect R11 & R110b.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
How about the guy on the Boston MTA, Did he ever return, because he didn t have his extra nickle, so he would ride forever. Charlie was his name.
How about the guy on the Boston MTA, Did he ever return, because he didn t have his extra nickle, so he would ride forever. Charlie was his name.
Charlie never returned.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Most, if not all of the R-1s (100-399) were gone from the scene by 1974. Not too many of them saw service into the 1970s. Chances are most of the R-4s (400-800) had been retired by then as well. The remaining ones were probably running on the CC.
I do remember taking R1,4,6,9 that running on B,D,F line in 1974. I do remember seeing low number too because i love number. I know R1 were gone around 1974 or 1975. What date did R1, R4, R6, & R9 ran there last day on service? Just post it this & let me know. I already know R10 last day on Service was in 1989.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
One easy way to spot an R-1, besides the car numbers, was the lack of headlights. The R-1s never got them. Nor did the lower number R-4s, although I can't remember the cutoff number. The last R-6s may have lasted well into 1976, while the last revenue trip for the old-timers was on a put-in J train of R-7/9s on March 31, 1977.
How about my record of passing up three L trains at Bedford Ave around 8:30am on Monday so I could go to Manhattan?
They also seemed to have replaced the brake shoes with louder ones for the soon to be hearing impaired on our R42's
Anybody remember the joke about the improvement the TA made to the R10's in the late '80's?? They replaced the eight sided wheels with 10 sided wheels.
Have a happy new year folks.
Well, the R-10s did indeed seem to suffer from flat spots in their final days, if that's what caused them to be painfully loud. I prefer to remember them as they were during their heyday on the A. In terms of brute speed, they were second to none. They weren't all that bad back then from a noise standpoint. At least it was tolerable even when rocketing along CPW. Now, if you were standing on a local platform when those cars thundered past, you got an earful.
As I've said before, maybe it's just as well the R-10s are no more. The thought of no field shunting on those cars makes me shudder.
It was heypaul.
--Mark
Remember that song by the "Kingston Trio" about the guy trapped forever on the Boston subway??
Remember that song by the "Kingston Trio" about the guy trapped forever on the Boston subway??
Yeah! charlie on the MTA. He'll never return!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yeh his wife threw him a sandwich every day. Couldn t she have but a nickel with it, or she really didn t want him back.
"Charlie on the MTA" was actually an election campaign song. The Kingston Trio picked it up 10 years later and it became a best seller. The original final verse, which was not included in the Kingston Trio version, was:
Now you citizens of Boston
Don't you think it is a scandal
That the people have to pay and pay
Fight the fare increase
Vote for George O'Brian
And get Charlie off the MTA!
O'Brian lost to James Michael Curley, who at that time was residing in the Suffolk County Jail.
12/31/99
.........and speaking of the Kingston trio's hit , M.T.A.
Released on 6/29/59 on Capitol (purple label) #4221, 6 weeks on the charts and reached #15.
Bill Newkirk
I've done about 5 hours in DC and 8 in Philadelphia (including a stop for lunch (30 minutes) and the layovers. Longest was about 30 minutes). In NYC, I'm not sure. It was probably about 3-4 hours.
Yesterday, I rode the R110 on the (C) from Euclid to 42nd. It is not being used to it's full advantage, compared to how it was when it ran on the (A).
-They dont use the illuminated line map inside. (It still shows (H)+(K) transfers)
-The Information screen inside only says the time
-The Destination screen now only says "Listen for Announcement" (C)
-I believe they only have 6 cars left
However, it is still a fun ride, and it will probably be gone soon.
It runs daily (they may not use it during the holiday).
The conductor told me to catch it at 11:13@Euclid, But the dispatcher on the NB Platform at Euclid told me it is daily @12:00. Alas, it showed up @12:00, the conductor said "sorry were running real late"?????
I can't believe they'd scrap these cars. If they can run, they will......somewhere.
$5 says it's the Rockaway shuttle ...
I would probably also bet that the R-110's will go to the Rockaway shuttle. Like you said, as long as the cars work, the TA will use them. It would be to the TA's disadvantage to scrap the cars. If they're testing the R-110's on the C and A lines, the cars are definately compatible to run as the Rockaway Shuttle.
I hope the Rockaway Shuttle. I will have a 6-7 hour layover next month at JFK, and would love to ride it, since I never even saw them except for pix.
I have seen the R-110Bs, but have not ridden on them. Once, at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, I almost got on when they pulled in on the A, but decided to wait for a train of R-38s.
The potential problem, if these cars are kept (and they should be), is parts availability, especially if their parts are one-of-a-kind. Three of the units are now being cannibalized to keep the other six running. After that, it gets dicey.
I did ride on the R-110As once.
The R110B's are nice cars. Smooth and quiet. But very few seats. That automatic conductor announcment device is very annoying. Give me the garbled, incomplete announcements of a real conductor any day.
I thought they were goining to rebuild them to be compatable with the new cars when they go on line? Or did I read wrong when it was discussed?
Highly unlikely. The R-110Bs are 67 feet long, and are coupled into 3-cer sets while the R-143s will be 60-footers and lashed up as four-car sets.
I rode on them once that I recall, in 1996. Don't remember for sure which line they were on but I think it may have been the R. I was favorably impressed at the time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amazingly enough, there is a dedicated crew for that train. If you ride that train enough and offer a cup of coffee or a hello on a daily basis, he might turn on the signs for you. There is not much that can be done for a train similar to the SOAC, which was the only set. The TA finally got wise and test drove the car before they bought the fleet. Even when they do scrap them, there is nothing to stop a museum from getting one or two for display. The ordered fleet will have so many modifications that they can't MU with the prototypes. I don't think you will miss them when the new cars go into service.
Hey, do you think TMNY would be interested in acquiring a set?
-Stef
Since the cars are supposed to arrive and stay at 239th Street, probably the first R-142's will go to the number 2 line which really needs them most. Then the 5 train would probably get the R-142's. The 4 train redbirds would probably follow and then the 6 train. Some R-62's might be replaced by R-142's and the R-62's being replaced will probably go to the 7. This is only a guess.
Okay nostalgia fans - get your cameras ready. When the World Trade Center Station closes for about one month, there will be many service changes. (E to Euclid?) In any event, there will be three extra trains operating on the B line. They will be R-32s from Pitkin Yd. and will lay up nightly in Concourse yard. During AM & PM rush's these trains will be operating on the D line Dekalb to Bedford Park.
I hope we'll be able to tell whether the bulkhead signs say "D" and not mistake them for "Q" or, worse yet, "O". Better break out the WindexTM. Also make sure the little flourescent bulbs in there are working.
I wonder if #3348-3549 is going to be among this group...
Meanwhile...
Out of the Jamaica-Yard group of R32's, there is #3753, whose garbled sign is absolutely unintelligible. It looks like a Hebrew character is being displayed up there, not what I suppose should be an "E". The T/O was informed of the malfunctioning sign when we saw it.
He banged on the switch wheel, the sign briefly showed correctly, then reverted to its previous (incorrect) state.
Wayne
Considering the large orthodox Jewish population around the Jamaica Shop area, that may very well be a Hebrew bulkhead end-sign. However, in the event that it is a malfunctioning sign, I'll notify the General Superintendent of Jamaica Shop.
Now THAT'S customer service!! :)
--Mark
And while your at it, please ask him/her to get those @#$%& R32's off the R line. I want a pure, totally R46 R line!
lol, just kidding.
That's right! Send the junk back to the E line.
Junk? More doors per 600 foot train: 40 doors vs. 32 doors! A piece of equipment in which you can be just as comfortable standing up operating as sitting down! God created us with 2 hands! We use both hands on the R32. Weaklings use 2 hands on the R44/46 to hold the controller down!
Gee, those extra 8 doors really help! That E train in front of me during the rush cannot manage to get the doors closed at Lexington Ave even with the platform conductors there.If you're suggesting that I need two hands to the controller down, you're mistaken.
The E line (with that old junk) picks up more people than the F because of Penn Station. That old junk is crowded for virtually its' entire run in both directions! As for the 2 hands: I wasn't talking about you, but I do see some people operating like that! If they put any R44's on the E when it goes to Euclid, then you'll see ME holding those pop-o-matic controllers with MY 2 hands! Not to mention it will be a sight to behold for me to squeeze in behind that narrow console with the lack of leg room!
You remember Pop-o-matic? My sister had one of those games. "Pop-o-matic pops the dice, pop a 6 and you move twice, etc."
I certainly wouldn't consider the R-32s as being junk. They're probably the best built cars around. Now, there are two classes of 75-footers which just might fall into that category....
I didn't call them "old junk". It was part of my response because the person I was responding to called them that. They are my favorite cars of the modern era. I better like them: I'm part of the E line team.
I will be out there on the "E" train this Saturday between 2 and 5, to finish up the photo shoot of Queens Boulevard IND. I certainly DO like R32s (although another car of the same era is my favorite). No car is colder in the summer. And the railfan window, of course.
I steadfastly agree with you, Bill. Any subway car that can provide 35 years of yeoman service and still look as good as they do (and the R32 certainly qualifies in that respect) can never be called "junk".
Wayne
There may be a G.O. all weekend having E & F trains in both directions running local all thru Queens, with R service not running. Among other things, the contractor for the new extension is in the process of converting the ballast roadbed to concrete on D4 track from north of Queens Plaza to 36 St. There is currently a 24/7 slow speed order in the area which causes E/F trains to be backed up to Manhattan during the PM rush! I believe the other 3 tracks have been concreted. The TA, for reasons which only they can explain, likes concrete roadbed rather than a ballast roadbed. I say ballast is better for the trucks and the ride quality because it provides a softer base. But what does a Train Operator know in the eyes of the TA!.....I am one of the few E line team members who is NOT happy to get an R46! I like working with 2 hands! The conductors appreciate the R46 because they don't have to contend with passengers blocking access to their cab doors when thy cross over from right to left side door operation (and vice-versa), especially in the rush. I have been told by the conductors that on occasion the "customers" start bitching when they are asked to step aside so the conductor can do his job!
There may be a G.O. all weekend having E & F trains in both directions running local all thru Queens, with R service not running. Among other things, the contractor for the new extension is in the process of converting the ballast roadbed to concrete on D4 track from north of Queens Plaza to 36 St.
the IND never had ballast roadbeds. They were always concrete, unless you mean that they're taking out the traditional noisy IND concrete roadbed and replacing the track with welded rail and a new concrete roadbed on rubber track pads. BTW, the TA has been doing this since the 1970's. I think the first section was the 6th Ave. express tracks between W 4th St. and 34th St.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
D4 has had a ballast roadbed since it was realigned as part of the 63rd St. connection project. It is now being converted back to concrete.
D4 has had a ballast roadbed since it was realigned as part of the 63rd St. connection project. It is now being converted back to concrete.
Thanks for clarifying.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's GREAT NEWS! That means I can use any of these services at the local stops between 71 Ave and Roosevelt. I am going to do pictures at 75 Ave, 67 Ave, 63 Drive and Grand/Newtown, the four stations which have incomplete photo sets. This will save me time, maybe enough so I can extend my trip down the Flushing Line to get the rest of the stained-glass windows at 33rd, 40th and 46th. I have eight, I need the rest.
Wayne
Maybe they'll even let you sneak down the corridor of the mezzanine at Roosevelt Ave. and let you take a pic or two of the never-used terminal station.
I'll be getting some of those to the site soon.
--Mark
We tried (December 11) - no luck - there's a locked door there. LOL
Wayne
You mean they've sent some R-46s over to the E once again?
JUNK? Harrumph! Thirty-five years of yeoman service, and they look and ride like almost-new. I'm sure there are a few of them that need some TLC, but with 590 of the 600 cars still on the road, they certainly have passed at least the test of time.
Wayne
You want the R-46s on the R? You can have 'em.
"Considering the large orthodox Jewish population around the Jamaica Shop area, that may very well be a Hebrew
bulkhead end-sign."
Only problem is, there's no equivalent to the letter E in Hebrew - Hebrew is written with no vowels!
subfan
The Greek Epsilon after which the Latin E was created was taken from the Herbrew letter Hey.
Oh yee of little sense of humor............ Besides it was said that it looked like a hebrew letter. It does not mean that it was the hebrew equivalent of the letter 'E'..
It looked like an "E" all right except the center stem of the "E" was just a few dots, and at the corners the dots didn't display right, making it round-looking like the "C" sign. That's why I mistook it for a Hebrew letter. I think the actual Hebrew letter is the reverse of what I saw. It's the first of the three letters on food packages that indicate that the product is Kosher. Anon_E_Mouse should be able to tell us exactly which letter it is.
Wayne
Just Anon_e_mouse? That is the letter Kaf, which became the Greek Kappa, which became the Latin K. The Kaf is also used for the CH sound, not like cheese, but like Chanukah (no English equivalent).
Easy does it! He was the first person who came to mind. I meant no offense and thanks for the information.
Wayne
If there is no English equivalent how can we pronounce "Chanukah" ? :)
Carefully!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The word Chanukah starts with the letter Chet, which also makes the CH sound. As for the Kaf, if it has a dot in the middle it makes a K sound, if not, it makes a CH sound.
Well, if one doesn't write with nikudot (vowels), then one wouldn't write the two letters differently.
The letters are and pronunciation are the same whethat one uses nikudoth (vowels) or not. There is no English translation the way Paysach is translated to Passover. The same goes for Purim, there is no English translation.
B"H
Umm, by the s'fardim (Middle-Eastern Jews), there *is* a difference between a Chet and a Chof. It's a very subtle difference however.
It's Pesach, not Paysach.
Its a transliteration so either way is correct. (Don't tell Rabbi Paysach Krohn that his name is spelled worng!)
Ain't transliterations fun? Depending on which Rabbi I've dealt with over the years, my Hebrew name, when transliterated is spelled
Chayim
Chaim
Hayyim
I use the first one, just as I prefer Chanukah to Hanukkah, but it's all the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I've seen many over the years too. I have one book where Pesach, or Paysach is written as Pesah! It's kinda like first names, anything goes. My Hebrew name is Meir, but many people spell it as Mayor. When I was in Hebrew School, my friends called me Lindsay.
Mark
My Hebrew name is Meir, but many people spell it as Mayor. When I was in Hebrew School, my friends called me Lindsay.
Mark
My name is Mark and my Hebrew name is Moshe.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Chaim? Don't let Harry Truman pronounce your name!
When does this start? I'll have to get a map to add to my collection.
I don't have the date handy but it'll be very soon. This is not a permanant change but a service diversion due to construction.Since it'll last only for a month or perhaps just 3 weeks, there will be no revised maps, just notices in cars, stations and newspapers.
Thanks Steve, I'm going to pencil in a headend ride to Bedford Park, haven't seen out the front on that stretch in awhile for me.
Me too. I have not been on the whole Concourse line for years........
3TM
12/31/99
Shut down World trade Center (station) for a year? Does it take that long to rip out and replace the switches?
Bill Newkirk
No, he said for about a month.
12/31/99
MY MISTEAK !!!
I did mean a month, not a year. Still, why so long??
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!
Concrete must be ripped out and replaced. BTW: time was not your only error. Misteak is actually spelled M I S T A K E
HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAH :)
But steak tastes better. I don't find wood so appetizing, and the stakes kind of scare some of my vampire friends.
I haven't taken the Oyster Bay line in awhile because I can't stand the old diesels. Which Oyster Bay trains (weekdays) are Bi-levels?
I don't know the answer to your question, but I do share your disdain for those putrid 1955 coaches. They Stinks from Da Woid Go! :o>
wayne
Click here to see if you can save the city from the Y2K Monster!
Happy Y2K from...
Anon_e_mouse
I love it!
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Glad you enjoyed! My wife haunts the Blue Mountain Arts site and found that one ... she mentioned it to me and since I'm working 9 PM to 9 AM for the next six days (I'm the manager on duty for Y2K at our location) I thought I'd find it and try it out. Once I did I knew I had to share it with you all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ha! That's great!!!
Good luck on the graveyard shift .....
--Mark
Very cute!
Assignments are here:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/carassignments/index.html
I'm a college student majoring in Mechaincal Enginneering. I have narrowed down my career choices to between automobiles (ugh) or subways. I'm not too far ahead in my courses, so I can still change majors fairly easily. Can anyone tell me what careers that involve subways that require an Engineering degree? I prefer Mechaincal, but any Engineering field will do. I love planning and building. Please don't tell me a T/O or conductor, I respect those jobs, but I want something different.
with all the muckety mucks at 130 Livingston St and Jay street probably 3/4 to 1/2 having nothing to do with train or bus operation not to mention OPERATION period could probably use another techie down there. Lets not forget the new offices of MTA at 2 Bway... gee ever wonder where the money goes that goes into the farebox and collected from other sources such as utility taxes and ad revenues its into salaries of folks hanging around the water cooler at all the offices of MTA and its subsidiaries not to slam your endeavor of working for the MTA who do not produce IE: drive buses or trains open/close train doors sell fare media or provide information and so on and so fourth. MTA=ATM for every Conductor or Train Operator Station Agent or Station CLeaner or Bus Driver there usually is two maybe three other souls not necessarily a Supervisor employed by the MTA redundancy in the office is what also eats away at the farebox revenue...
Boy, with a response like that, maybe I'll just design automobiles. Also, there are more transit systems than just the MTA, I'll consider working at any others, too
NYCT employs engineers in many fields from subway car design (redesign) to station construction, to tunnel construction, to communications and fire alarm systems. Every major project has an engineer assigned.
What I would do is:
(a) look into an engineering intern program to see if the job is actually for you.
(b) Look up alumni from your school who are working in the transit field. They would be an excellent source of information and career guidance.
One word of caution, NYCT does not pay Jr. Engineers too well. Most get their year or two of experience ofr their resume and move on.
Yesterday morning I was on the Flushng Express. All the stations have been renovated on the viaduct along Queens Blvd. in Sunnyside and Long Island City. I noticed the station names were 46th St., 40th St., & 33rd St. No mention of Bliss, Lowry or Rawson. Have those names been officially dropped from the stations names?
Yes. As they should have. those names mean nothing to today's riders. Why they keep the old street names on the Liberty Ave el (A) line is beyond me. 88th St. hasn't been known as "Boyd Ave." since 1917.
The same goes for Woodhaven Blvd-Slattery Plaza on the Queens Blvd local.
The same goes for Woodhaven Blvd-Slattery Plaza on the Queens Blvd local.
I lived near the Woodhaven Blvd. station from 1967-1980. I always wondered where Slattery Plaza was. I could never find it. Did it ever exist? If so, when? And when did it cease to exist?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I don't know if it ever existed. Maybe some book on N.Y. history may contain the answer.
I could not find it in the late 50s either when my Aunt lived on Saunders and Eliot Ave
12/31/99
I believe Slattery Plaza is now where the Queens Center mall is.
Bill Newkirk
Perhaps Slattery Plaza was the name of the junction of Queens Boulevard and Woodhaven Boulevard. Someone at one point must have forgotten to reinstall the signs denoting that.
I believe that is the correct answer. Woodhaven Blvd. was my station from 1968-1979. Removing the name would mean covering up the mosaic tiles which no one (myself included) wants to do. Van Wyck Blvd. has been officially renamed Van Wyck Briarwood, (refer to the signs on the poles) but the mosaic tiles will remain. The same for 23rd St. Ely Avenue.
On the #7 Queens Blvd Viaduct, there were not mosaic tile with Rawson, Bliss and Lowry, just signs. The can easily get rid of the names on the Roosevelt Ave. portion of the elevated, as well as on the Liberty Ave. elevated, if they want to.
The Rockaway branch still has names left over from the LIRR era, like Stratton and Gaston Avenues.
NEW signs on the IRT #4 still tell you that you're going toward Woodlawn Road. Bainbridge Avenue has not carried that name since 1920 at least.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Unless I am missing something, the R62 signs read:
Woodlawn- Jerome Av
Bronx(On two lines)--top sign
Utica Av
Brooklyn (on two lines)-bottom sign
I believe "Woodlawn" refers to Woodlawn Cemtery
No - he meant station signs on the Jerome Ave El platforms / fare control areas. Not the cars themselves.
--Mark
Actually "Woodlawn" refers to Woodlawn Road which for many years was the station name and was carried on the Redbirds. It refers to a street which used to run all the way to Jerome Avenue but now no longer does so.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbirds still carry this name on front sign. 9279 is one I remember..........
3TM
Since I'm on the long overnights for the next few days I've been killing time by browsing eBay - I stumbled on a bunch of overpriced signs and such but also found this map that might interest some of you, especially those of you with Brooklyn connections. I don't have any idea of its value but the starting bid doesn't look too bad - I'm not particularly a map collector so you won't get any competition from me (I bid as trolleychai).
Guide to the Subways of Greater New York compliments of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
12/31/99
.....er!..the map was posted upside down!. I guess we'll have to stand on our heads!
Bill Newkirk
When was the e-Bay map published? In the TMNY collection, there is a c1910 BMT color map which shows both surface and subway lines, still in very good condition and no yellowing to speak of. If the color is accurate in the e-Bay offering, it has yellowed quite a bit, so it is hard for me to tell if it is older or not.
The Brooklyn Eagle has been out of business for many years so I would assume that the map has some age to it.
Just to annoy the motorman (lol) and get some great footage with my video camera, I stayed on a #6 train past Brooklyn Bridge yesterday and filmed as it passed through the ghost of City Hall Station! They don't check the cars to see if all passengers are discharged at Bklyn Bridge, so it's really easy to see the station. I also wrote a letter to the TA asking if they plan to reopen it any time soon as part of the Transit Museum. No response yet.
As long as Rantin' Rudy is Mayor, the City Hall Station will remain closed to the public. The official line on that: Security Reasons!!
Perhaps the next Mayor will not be as paranoid and maybe will be more people friendly.
Would you be saying the same thing if you worked in City Hall and with Osama bin Laden bent on destroying all of America? Until he is gone I would do the same
Hmmm.....There is a very small police booth down there.
1. No one who works in City Hall would think, much less say anything that contradicts his Rudeness
2. While Osama Bin Laden may be bent on destroying all of America, he presumably wants to do so in a way that won't make him a hero to New Yorkers
He really is overly paranoid. There is a small police booth down there. One thing I forgot to mention: the platform is strewn with potato chip bags, soda bottles and newspapers. It really is a shame.
I actually rode in the front of a redbird once and saw the station. It's beautiful but poluted. I would love to go down there and get some pics in. Let's hope that someday we'll be able to explore the station!!!
Clark
I've been in it, about three years ago on a Transit Museum tour. There are really a lot of other original stations that are more impressive than City Hall; its historical significance and the relative uniqueness of its curved platform are good reasons to have it restored and open to the public though, and hopefully it will be someday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I do think you're right, 168th Street on the 1/9 IRT line is a lot granger in terms of the ceiling, but it does not have the uniqueness and history of City Hall.
Actually, I do think you're right, 168th Street on the 1/9 IRT line is a lot grander in terms of the ceiling, but it does not have the uniqueness and history of City Hall.
And not just 168th street. The original Times Square station, although it was just a local station, was rather impressive; so was Astor Place. And Wall Street is still quite nice, especially since the rehab.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
None of those stations can compare with Broadway Junction.
None of those stations can compare with Broadway Junction.
How about Marcy Ave. before they refurbished it? How about Stillwell?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Marcy Avenue is just a 3 track side platform station that has neither mezzanines or crossovers. It's only good thing is the Williamsburg Bridge approach. The other two stations have not only railfan vistas, but also are in themselves grand.
If I remember correctly Marcy Av had a wood platform as late as 1981. That was the year I rode the entire system. That was the only station I remeber with a wood platform.
The Marcy Ave station had it's wooden platform replaced around the same time the Fulton St stops on the J line had theirs replaced as well (78,79?).
Marcy Avenue had a wooden platform installed over the middle track to facilitate extra boarding space while it was the terminal for the M train during the Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction. That platform is now gone.
It also had a wooden platform prior to rebuilding in 1978-79.
Dean Street boasted(?) a wood platform to the bitter end, right?
Dean Street boasted(?) a wood platform to the bitter end, right?
Right.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
"Dean St. boasted a wood platform to the bitter end right?"
Let's not forget Botanic Gardens and Park Place, candiates for firewood!
Bill Newkirk
"Dean St. boasted a wood platform to the bitter end right?"
Let's not forget Botanic Gardens and Park Place, candiates for firewood!
Bill Newkirk
Yes, the whole shuttle. Instead of concrete, they should have replaced the wooden boards with parquet floors, and polished them every week.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They should have also built marble walls, fluid-cushioned velvet benches and crystal chandeliers for lighting. There should also be waiter service for hors d'oeurves while u wait for the train.
They should have also built marble walls, fluid-cushioned velvet benches and crystal chandeliers for lighting. There should also be waiter service for hors d'oeurves while u wait for the train.
Garcon, caviar sil vous plait. This is the Snobway. On the Franklin
Shuttle? Why not!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Give me Chow Mein on a Bun with a large order of fries, please!
--Mark
Give me Chow Mein on a Bun with a large order of fries, please!
--Mark
How about a "Subway" Foot-Long BMT?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Subway has a new sandwich coming out called the "IND". Basically, it's white bread with some bland salt free processed meat.
Subway has a new sandwich coming out called the "IND". Basically, it's white bread with some bland salt free processed meat.
The "bland" part doesn't surprise me. I've been describing IND architecture as "sterile" for a while.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They should have a barbecue chicken sandwich called the Redbird!!!
Instead of small, medium and large drinks, they can have local, express and super-express drinks. They can have a supersize kind of thing, and call it a express transfer.
They should have a barbecue chicken sandwich called the Redbird!!!
Instead of small, medium and large drinks, they can have local, express and super-express drinks. They can have a supersize kind of thing, and call it a express transfer.
And serve EXPRESSO coffee. They should have a poster of John Rocker sitting next to some guy with purple hair on an R-36 at Willet's Point and give you 12 darts to pass the time while waiting for a train. For railfans, they should give you a slide show all about the R-142's. How about a row of 10 PC's with Internet access. Surf while you wait for a train. If they make an announcement that there's going to be a long delay, maybe you could even play a game of chess online until the next train comes. If you win, give you a funpass for tomorrow. If you lose, make you sit through a movie about Bill Ronan's biography and the Ronan Empire, while you miss your train and have to wait for another. Once you get on the train, take it to the zoo, where you'll see hippos and rhinos in their natural habitat - the subway. Don't forget the aviary. They have loads of Redbirds and even a couple of bluebirds. If you're lucky, you'll see a Green Hornet.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
They should also come out with a sandwich called the IRT. You should see the looks I get when I mention IND and IRT at any Subway restaurant in metro Denver: Huh? It's understandable; most of those kids have probably never been to New York, let alone know anything about the subway.
If I were manager of a Subway restaurant (or, for that matter, Cozzoli's), I'd have heypaul's tape piped in for some background sounds.
I worked for those people back when I was a teenager. With the way they treat employees, I hope their entire business collapses.
I worked for those people back when I was a teenager. With the way they treat employees, I hope their entire business collapses.
Subway is a franchise. Although every Subway has the same stuff, every owner is different. They all seem to make up their own rules about how they accept cupons. Some will make you buy a drink, like the cupon states, others won't make you get the drink. When I get take-out, I don't need or want the drink. I have what I need at home. Also, the creep in the Subway nearest to me always tries to short-change me. Who do you go to report him? He's the owner. I don't go there anymore. There are as many Subways around my neighborhood as there are OTB parlors in NYC. BTW, I see how overworked the employees are. Its a job, only if you really need it and can't get anything else. Turnover is tremendous. Then again, all fast food jobs are terrible. I'll have a BMT footlong on whole wheat with everything on it, except the hot peppers.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Make mine all hot peppers, add some cheddar, to heck with the rest!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This thread is called Marcy Av... So why all the talk about fast food joints? You can get off at Marcy Av and walk over to Peter Luger's for some real food. But remember, NO CREDIT CARDS!!!
You think the kids at Subway give you a dirty look when you mention IND & IRT. Try ordering spinach at Popeyes!!!
Here's a pic from 1969. Notice part of the platform that's wood and the part thats concrete. The wooden portion was closed for a long time before Dean St was demolished.
Here's a pic from 1969. Notice part of the platform that's wood and the part thats concrete. The wooden portion was closed for a long time before Dean St was demolished.
It doesn't look closed to me, just that the train was stopping on the concrete portion only. It looks like the wooden portion of the platform was still open to passengers. Fact is, the railfan that took the photo was standing on the wooden part of the platform.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I was saying that the wooden platform was closed many years before the Dean St. station was demolished. That pic was from 1969. I cannot remember ever seeing the wooden platforms at this station in use, going back 12-15years.
I was saying that the wooden platform was closed many years before the Dean St. station was demolished. That pic was from 1969. I cannot remember ever seeing the wooden platforms at this station in use, going back 12-15years.
I've been gone from NYC for close to 20 years. The last time I rode on the Franklin Shuttle was 23 years ago. If you say that the wooden part of the Dean St. platforms were closed and fenced off, I take your word for it, because I didn't witness it myself. Another thing I didn't witness was the plywood on Park Place. If you ask me, I think the TA was conditioning the patrons of the Franklin Shuttle for abandonment by allowing the line to rot the same way they allowed the Culver Shuttle and the 3rd Ave. El to rot prior to abandonment. There must have been a community outcry to save the line. Why else would the TA spend all that money rebuilding the Shuttle, when they could have closed it down altogether. They're so good at that. They could have used their good old generic catch-all excuse of "lack of ridership" to shut it down. Then again, it would be much more costly to remove an embankment and open-cut ROW than a steel el.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
01/02/00
GOD! THAT R-32 IS FILTHY !!
Bill Newkirk
GOD! THAT R-32 IS FILTHY !!
Bill Newkirk
Back in 1969, everything was filthy. I don't think anything went through the carwash. I can remember black steel dust accumulations on the fans and vents of all the non a/c arch roof cars. That's also about the time that the side destination signs (you know, the green ones) stopped lighting up.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those R-32s (at least the first car in the pic) still have their original bulkhead curtains. By 1969, most of them had those multicolored route curtains in the destination slot.
BTW, that photo appears to have been taken during the winter months. Aren't car washers out of service during the winter?
Those R-32s (at least the first car in the pic) still have their original bulkhead curtains. By 1969, most of them had those multicolored route curtains in the destination slot.
BTW, that photo appears to have been taken during the winter months. Aren't car washers out of service during the winter?
I don't think a single carwash ran at all during 1969. It wasn't just winter. I remember in the summer, trains were filthy outside and the black steel dust accumulated all over the fans and vents inside the cars.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Deferred maintenence was in full force back in 1969. Back then it was just dirt. A few years later, it was grafitti.
>>>Then again, it would be much more costly to remove an
embankment and open-cut ROW than a steel el.<<<
That could very well be what saved the FS.
That could very well be what saved the FS.
that was my point. It was either a community outcry, or the fact that it would be too costly and too troublesome to remove the ROW.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The South Brooklyn Railway ROW was removed quite easily, and now sports new housing along it's former route. If removing a surface/open cut ROW was the main reason the FS was saved, then I should be able to get a shuttle train the next time I get off the F at Ditmas.
Community pressure was the only thing that saved the shuttle.
Was there any community outcry to save the Culver Shuttle in 1975? A B/M – F transfer in those parts would come in handy.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think so. Most people were in a "let's
destroy every elevated in the city" mode in the
1970's.
-
The South Brooklyn Railway ROW was removed quite easily, and now sports new housing along it's former route. If removing a surface/open cut ROW was the main reason the FS was saved, then I should be able to get a shuttle train the next time I get off the F at Ditmas.
Community pressure was the only thing that saved the shuttle.
The Culver Shuttle was as easy as any steel el to remove, and the SBK tracks below were even easier. It gets more difficult with an embankment and an open-cut. Its more costly and more time-consuming. That's probably why certain abandoned LIRR ROW's were just left as is. Abandoning the Franklin Shuttle and leaving the ROW intact would have created too much of a hazard for adventurous kids. It is in an area that is too densly urban. It is not like the less urban area where the steel spider on the abandoned LIRR ROW is. Keeping the Shuttle could have been the result of either community pressure, the cost and difficulty of removing the ROW, or both.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Abandoning the Franklin Shuttle and leaving the ROW intact would
have created too much of a hazard for adventurous kids.
Hmmmm .... the Polo Grounds Shuttle ROW has been intact for 41 years now ....
--Mark
Abandoning the Franklin Shuttle and leaving the ROW intact would
have created too much of a hazard for adventurous kids.
Hmmmm .... the Polo Grounds Shuttle ROW has been intact for 41 years now ....
--Mark
Its not out in the open like Franklin would be.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
So is the old LIRR Rockaway Beach ROW, north of Liberty Ave.
There was a lengthy article in the NY Times several years back on the Franklin Shuttle and how community leaders were poised to "do battle" with transit officials. That's how the line was saved. I don't think there was a peep when the Culver line was threatened and eventually destroyed.
Carl M.
Every time the Franklin Shuttle was doomed to oblivion, the community rallied around it and strongly supported its continuance. This happened multiple times in the 70s and 80s.
--Mark
Every time the Franklin Shuttle was doomed to oblivion, the community rallied around it and strongly supported its continuance. This happened multiple times in the 70s and 80s.
--Mark
And the TA keeps trying. Don't they get the message by now? Lay off of the Franklin Shuttle. Despite the fact that it was redone, I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to close it again.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
It was the community. I remember at Murrow HS, one of my teachers had a petition for the students to sign to save the shuttle. This was when the TA was discussing to tear it down.........
3TM
It was the community. I remember at Murrow HS, one of my teachers had a petition for the students to sign to save the shuttle. This was when the TA was discussing to tear it down.........
3TM
I'm glad at least one community had the brains to stop the TA from eliminating another line. Too bad this wasn't the case with the Culver Shuttle, the 3rd Ave. El and the Myrtle Ave. El.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
No. The part of Dean St. open until 1995 was actually had a concrete platform. Park Place had a wooden platform.
Was there ever a wooden center platform installed at Queens Blvd. after the Jamaica Ave. line was cut back? I never rode on it that far after 1969. When I drove beneath the then-abandoned portion in October of 1988, I could see additional girders installed in the center just before Queens Blvd. which were most likely for a scissor switch.
No. No way to do that would have been possible without blocking the tracks west of Queens Blvd. with a walkway to the side platforms and exits. The tracks from Queens Blvd to just before the Sutphin Blvd station were used to lay up trains from 77-85. Those girders you refer to were indeed put there for a temporary crossover.
At 121 St, the terminal from 4/85 to 12/88, it was a bit different. At first, only the Manhattan bound platform was ever used by passangers. The middle track between 121 and 111th street was temporarily conected to the Manhattan bound track just short of the bumper block where the middle track ended. All trains coming into 121st st switched onto the center track, then moved over a temporary connection to the Manhattan bound track and into 121st. St. Leaving 121st., the train moved over this temporary connection onto the middle track, then switched onto the Manhattan bound track right before reaching 111th St. The former Jamaica bound track was used as a layuptrack during this time. The last year that 121st was the terminal, the now unused crossover was used, as trains pulled in to the Jamaica bound side, discharged, crossed over and returned to 121st on the Manhattan bound side (like the D does at 205th St.). This crossover wasn't built until 1987.
Marcy Avenue is just a 3 track side platform station that has neither mezzanines or crossovers. It's only good thing is the Williamsburg Bridge approach. The other two stations have not only railfan vistas, but also are in themselves grand.
Marcy Ave. was one of the original Broadway El stations, and was left untouched by Dual contracts reconstruction. It was a splendid Nineteenth Century station reminiscent of pre-Dual contracts el architecture. Marcy Ave. in its current state cannot compete as a notable station like City hall.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Most of that was ruined by it's "improvements."
I remember the state of repair (or disrepair) that Marcy Ave. was in prior to it's rebuilding. I'm as nostalgic as the next railfan, but I'm glad those ancient incandescent fixtures, many of which had been broken for decades, were replaced, as well as that unsafe wooden platform.
Ditto for Crescent-Alabama on Fulton as well.
I remember the state of repair (or disrepair) that Marcy Ave. was in prior to it's rebuilding. I'm as nostalgic as the next railfan, but I'm glad those ancient incandescent fixtures, many of which had been broken for decades, were replaced, as well as that unsafe wooden platform.
Ditto for Crescent-Alabama on Fulton as well.
They could have replaced the wooden platforms with concrete and repaired the light fixtures, or retrofitted the old light fixtures for sodium vapor, like they did at Sheepshead Bay on the Brighton Line. They could have otherwise left the station alone. As for the unsafe wooden platforms, I remember them being that way in the mid-seventies during a fan trip. I was afraid of falling through to the street, and I wasn't too heavy. The same kind of restoration could have been done on the J Line - replace the wooden platforms, retrofit the old lamps for sodium vapor, replace the rotting roof with material that looked the same, and otherwise, leave everything else alone, including the old stationhouses.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I agree, before Marcy Avenue was re-done, it too was a splendid piece of architecture. The other half of me likes the "new" Marcy Ave. because of the new, SAFER platform (the old one was like standing on Reynolds Wrap). Anyway, returning to City HAll, on New Year's Eve, before I went to Times Square, I took the 6 around City Hall Loop again...all the lights were turned off. There was also an increased police presence at Brooklyn Bridge Station...I had to duck into the rear motorman's cab to stay on the train.
Most of that was ruined by it's "improvements."
That's what I said in my previous post:
"Marcy Ave. in its current state cannot compete as a notable station like City hall."
They ruined it allright! They can't leave anything alone.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I'm sure all the people who weren't killed when they plummeted to the street below as that rotten wooden platform finally gave way are mighty glad that that station was "ruined".
Remember, the transit system is designed for one major purpose: to move people around in a safe and efficient way. Nostalgia and history come in a distant second.
Remember, the transit system is designed for one major purpose: to move people around in a safe and efficient way. Nostalgia and history come in a distant second.
Efficient?
HA HA HA HA HA!
As for nostalgia and history, the TA couldn't give a God damn about nostalgia and history.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Very true!
OK, efficient may be stretching it. lol.
As an Australian who visited NY last October, I too took a 6 around City Hall but could not see much - no lighting.
Maybe its up to New York people to get that station open for visitors but how do you cater for people wanting to see such a station with 6 line trains every few minutes? Operationally it would be a problem.
In any case, its up to NY residents. You have a vote so have a say about your politicans about historic stations in the city and there are quite a lot. I too liked Alabama Avenue, E NY, etc.
How many stations still have stores in them (other than the usual platform newsstands?)
The record store in Times Square is a recent casualty. However, there is still a flower shop in the 86th Station of the Broadway (R) line in Bay Ridge.
Are there any others?
www.forgotten-ny.com
There are stores in the Mezzanine of the IND (A line) at Times Square Complex. Also 181 on the 1 line has them outside the controls but at subway level
Aren t there a couple of stores on the way to the Shuttle at Grand Central, and on the 6th Ave at 34th St. I remember all the Nedicks at Times Square and the frozen custard stands also at Time Sq. But that was 40 years ago. Also the Barbershops at Herald Square nearer to the 32nd St Exits
Sorry- Needicks has joined Forgotten New York, as has the ice cream.
All of the Needicks stores are gone
I miss their franks, especially the half roll/half toast frank buns!!!
I also miss their orange drink- no other orange drink came close!
Does any one know why they closed their stores/ (Sorry- I know it is off topic)
Probably because the TA didn't want rats/roaches/etc. running around in stations.The trains are filthy enough as it is!I remember a GREAT eating place(with seats)on the passageway of the 42nd Street shuttle on the Grand Central side.Like the pay toilets, it is gone.
Nedicks did have the best Orange Soda, ever. Changing from the Brighton to the IRT Bdwy 7th Ave Express to my grandmothers in Inwood, that was my pit stop
That's not the one which is seen in The French Connection, is it? The one where Gene Hackman buys a grape drink?
There used to be a hamburger stand on the 42nd St. mezzanine right next to the entrance to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, and we used to frequent it before catching our bus for home. I also remember a toy store a few doors to the north; I'd pick up a Matchbox car every so often. Although there are still a few stores on that mezzanine, there aren't nearly as many as there used to be.
I remember as recently as 12 years ago the system had dozens of those "luncheonettes", but for some reason the TA declared war on them and got rid of them. Now railfans have to exit the system to eat. Rats.
Now railfans have to exit the system to eat. Rats.
It's no big deal with the FunPass now.
(Now had you left out the period between "eat" and "rats", I'd have to disagree with you :))
--Mark
Speaking of rats, food is a natural thing to buy in the subway, but the sale of food results in half eaten things and wrappers trashing the system. I think that's why the TA wanted to get rid of the stores. In addition to newstands, I think the following services would be good on the subway.
1) Paid toilet restroom facilities(change that state law!), with drinking water fountains with spring water, barbers and beauty parlors, shoe shine, buttom sewing, massage, clothes pressing, and other services. Get those little time-takers out of the way on the way to-from work!
2) In larger stations, discos (keeps a NIMBY use out of sight).
Well the subways are still filthy with half eaten food. Unless they are willing to ban eating on subway trains (yeah right, like anyone would actually obey that law), the garbage problem will never go away.
In Hong Kong in the downtown stations, there are stores where you could drop your laundry off on the way off to work, pick it up, beauty parlors, Newstands. Travel Agencies, barbershops, even a dentist at 2 of the stations, but guess what . NO FOOD STANDS.
>>>In Hong Kong in the downtown stations, there are stores where you could drop your laundry off on the
way off to work, pick it up, beauty parlors, Newstands. Travel Agencies, barbershops, even a dentist at 2
of the stations, but guess what . NO FOOD STANDS. <<<
Smart move. I see people eating in the subway all the time and I can't imagine why anyone would eat in such a filthy environment (despite the advances that have been made in improving the stations in recent years). I won't even eat in the newspaper office where I work evenings. Just too much clutter around.
[I see people eating in the subway all the time and I can't imagine why anyone would eat in such a filthy environment (despite the advances that have been made in improving the stations in recent years). I won't even eat in the newspaper office where I work evenings. Just too much clutter around.]
A prohibition on eating and drinking in the subway is a rule that's long overdue. Sure, it would be an inconvenience for some time-stressed people, and would reflect a slight loss of freedom, but the gains would be well worth these minor disadvantages.
It would be hard to enforce. PATH already has such a rule and their police wont enforce their rule. Signs are up in most cars and they eat and drink even with the huge posters.
Enforcement of such a rule is trivial compared to other quality-of-life issues that affect the subway. Stop worrying about eating, but enforce rules about littering, smoking, panhandling, etc. and especially get rid of the skells!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of rats, food is a natural thing to buy in the subway, but the sale of food results in half eaten things and wrappers trashing the system. I think that's why the TA wanted to get rid of the stores. In addition to newstands, I think the following services would be good on the subway.
1) Paid toilet restroom facilities(change that state law!), with drinking water fountains with spring water, barbers and beauty parlors, shoe shine, buttom sewing, massage, clothes pressing, and other services. Get those little time-takers out of the way on the way to-from work!
2) In larger stations, discos (keeps a NIMBY use out of sight).
They had pay toilets. They were a dime. The coin-operated locks were removed about 1970. I guess someone fought it in court, probably arguing that you shouldn't have to pay to relieve yourself. At the time, the only option was to exit the subway and pay another fare. Some subway mezzanines had chairs for shoe shines years ago. As for barbers, I may be wrong, but I think there were one or 2 subway barber shops. As for drinking fountains with spring water, I doubt it. You can't even get spring water at restaurants without paying for it. As for a disco, don't you think the noise of the trains would drown out the music? Hey! Maybe the reverse would be true. Maybe the music would drown out the noise of the trains.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Yes, spring water can continue to be sold in bottles at subway newsstands. As for barber shops, there's one at Columbus Circle where the first MVMs were installed (that's the exit leading to the hall to 57th and 58th Streets with the wall paintings).
Yes, spring water can continue to be sold in bottles at subway newsstands. As for barber shops, there's one at Columbus Circle where the first MVMs were installed (that's the exit leading to the hall to 57th and 58th Streets with the wall paintings).
Larry Littlefield wasn't talking about bottled spring water, he was talking about spring water fountains. I don't think that would be practical. There's too much waste, with water going down the drain to have spring water fountains. I agree with bottled spring water. I all but stopped drinking soft drinks myself. My staple is spring water. Its healthier and quenches thirst better than soda.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
And Spring Water is so over priced. Oh I forgot, Hong Kong subways do not have toilets either.
If I recall correctly it was the late comedian Totie Fields that spearheaded the drive to get rid of pay toilets.
Pay toilets are available in major subway and rail stations in Paris. They're manned by an attendant (usually a woman!); clean and safe.
In Tokyo, there's a rest room at every subway station, outside fare control. They're free, and for the most part, clean and safe to use.
I liked the automated pay toilet that once stood near City Hall at Brooklyn Bridge Plaza. It was removed during the park renovation. It should be replaced, and similar units placed citywide, in the subway too. DAMN ALBANY BASTARDS.
Yes, New York City is definitely not Restroom
friendly. In keeping with my strange way of
looking at things, I'm surprised the city has never
considered franchising restroom facilities like the
automated restroom that Defy Reason (aka Eugenius
aka Dennis the Menace ) referred to. Maybe a $1
suggested cover charge would work. Actually, if we
could interest some company like E- toilets, it
might even be free. They could have a video monitor
in there and it would subsidized by advertisers who
would certainly have your attention while you used
their facilities. All kinds of over the counter
digestive remedies would be a natural.
Actually, that was the city's plan (the franchising). They would have people run them, like newsstands.
A way back, I metioned stores being built in the subway to fund public transporation; possibly Second Avenue Line as well. For instance, each station will have at least one store. And stations in the business district will have over 5 stores (similar to Rockerfeller Center/Grand Central). The question is, can it work?
N Broadway Line
I'm currently working on my page for GCT.
Could anyone give me some information about the track layout there(i.e. how many tracks/platforms, platform length, abandoned tracks/plats, etc)
I'd appreciate it.
Subway Steve's Homepage
It looks like the T.A.went retro on us. The R142/142a look like stainless steel versions of the R33S/36WF cars. They look nothing like the 62s.The R62s look like 42s except shorter/narrower.Something like the R10 to the R12/14 types. Anyway,they are very hansome cars,and I hope the run better than the R68 did when they first arrived. I happen to like the baby brother of the R46, so there to all you R68 haters.
This morning on WINS, there was a story that the TA cannot ease the severe rush-hour overcrowding on the 'L' line because of an "acute car shortage".
Just the 'L' line?! There's severe rush-hour overcrowding on virtually EVERY line! Maybe the 'L' is being singled out for overcrowding because of its ten(?) minute rush hour headway. Maybe speed restrictions have tightened line capacity to the point that a ten minute headway causes congestion. The Lex and Queens Boulevard lines already have peak headways tight as a drum- two minutes on the '6'; four minutes on the 'F'- so there's no room for anything else.
If overcrowding is a new issue, that speaks well of what was considered desolate sections of Brooklyn that were written off as abandoned twenty years ago (East Williamsburg, Bushwick, Brownsville).
As it happens, these communities have staged decent comebacks in recent years, what with new federally-granted houses in Brownsville and gentrification in Williamsburg's North Side. In fact, East Williamsburg (Graham through Morgan) got mention in NEW YORK magazine as the "next urban frontier".
Anyway, last month I took the 'J' past the ENY yards in rush hour, and there seemed to be plenty of cars resting there that could be pressed into service, unless they're all defective.
What the TA seems loath to accept is that increased population, fare discounts and a good economy result in higher ridership. I see rush-hour level crowds on most lines on weekends.
"What the TA seems loath to accept is that increased population, fare discounts and a good economy result in higher ridership. I see rush-hour level crowds on most lines on weekends."
What you do not say is what time you passed East NY Yard. Trains are stored there during off-peak hours for use during peak service needs. Also, what you don't seem to understand is that you don't walk into a showroom and pick out subway cars from a display or catalog. The lead time on a new subway car can be as much as 3-5 years. Right now there is a projected shortage of 140 cars in the B division that will be needed for the extended 'Q' service in 2001.
The congestion on the 'L' line is due to 3 things.
(a) The revitalization of the areas served by the lines.
(b) Creation of thousands of new jobs in Manhattan.
(c) The actual age and physical characteristics of the L line limit service increases.
It seems as if the MTA views the recent ridership increases as a surge that will decline over the next few years, and they may be correct. That would explain the hesitancy in committing to expensive route expansions and rolling stock orders. Despite all the talk of a "surplus" the money for all these big-ticket items has to come from us.
12/30/99
With all this talk on SubTalk about future scrappings of R-38,40 and 42's, maybe the TA should hold off for a few years. These cars were given a general overhaul about 10 years ago and seem to be in decent shape. They shouldn't be scrapped unless they are totally shot and nothing can keep them running. The facts of a booming economy,explosion in new housing,more jobs in Manhattan,new Fare Deals etc. have pointed to the fact that transit is booming! Transit has to reflect a booming economy. Keep those overhauled cars!
Bill Newkirk
Ditto. Since new cars can't be created 'overnight' reason suggests holding onto the older equipment as long as possible (unless there are some safety concerns).
Doug aka BMTman
How about Skip-Stop for L line???
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Impossible. The headways at skipped stations would be intolerable given the way service on the L has to be limited because of the nature of the East River tunnel.
What is the nature of the tunnel that prevents the increase?
Not sure, but someone mentioned that only 1 train can run in it at a time. Another train can't enter the tunnel after Bedford Ave until the train in front of it gets past 1st Ave.
Well, that's something that has to fixed. IMMEDIATELY.
(Can't run more than one train through the tunnel).
That was because of a busted ventilation system, and safety concerns. But I'm pretty sure they fixed that before WillieB went out of action, so it isn't a problem anymore.
Larry is correct; the ventilation fans have been repaired. The Current L Line Schedule shows peak service at 3-5 minute intervals.
(Boy, do I feel like a traitor with the title of this thread, even through they're our "sister" station!)
Personaly I would rather have the traffic (strike that and make it) Transit and Weather on the 8's then the world every 20 minutes.
Thank you Lou :0)
I'm off this weekend but will be doing a rare weekday appearance of Transit & Weather Together on Monday from 11a-4p. (It's a floating holiday here at MIT!!)
Before Infinity bought CBS you would have been a traitor, now you are not!
The two stations are still in competition, much as Chevrolet and Buick and Oldsmobile, etc. compete... but the bottom line goes to GM!
I notice that several trains on the Canarsie line originate/terminate at Atlantic Ave. rather than at Rockaway Parkway. I assume these are trains that come from/go to the East NY Yard.
Also, does anyone know if any trains originate/terminate at Myrtle Ave. during the rush hour? I can't tell from the schedule since it just shows "4-6 minutes". When I used the Canarsie Line from the late 1960's to early 1980's, I think about every other train started or ended at Myrtle during the rush hour. These trains would use the storage track between Myrtle and Halsey to turn around.
The lack of a third express track on the Canarsie line is one of the few circumstances where the system is underbuilt, not overbuilt. Could have hooked up the Broadway line, maybe even some Fulton Line trains, and run them right in.
The Canarsie trains you saw terminating at Atlantic Ave., if I am correct, was a temorary situation due to the extra trains that were being run on the 14th Street line during the Willy B. closure.
The old Pitkin el line structure was being used as the turn-around point. I do not believe this is going on anymore. Let me know if this is the case for rush hour service or whatever else.
Doug aka BMTman
The timetable did not change for the L after the bridge re-opened. We are running the same level of service, it's that the people just keep on coming.
TA MGR???
Who is this?? Are TA officials now looking in on us?? :)
Well TA management does look at subtalk and this website. Some talk and some don't but take mental notes. I know lots of Train crews and supervision who view the site. I remember a Line SUPT who looks at this stuff. Thats why you have to watch what you say or it can come back at you.
Well TA management does look at subtalk and this website. Some talk and some don't but take mental notes. I know lots of Train crews and supervision who view the site. I remember a Line SUPT who looks at this stuff. Thats why you have to watch what you say or it can come back at you.
Only if you work for them. I'm a member of the public. Until William Clinton-Rodham takes away our freedom of speech, I'm going to continue to exercise my right to it.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The way things are going, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that becomes reality, knowing Mr. Bill.
Absolutley correct. Here is an opinion filed to the NY POST a day or two back. Maybe they will sensor me before the mayor does.
Message to the Mayor' Office, City of NEW YORK January 4, 2000
Dear Mr Rudolph Guiliani:
I am writing to you not in complaint as a union rep of the Transit Authority, not as a sworn public servant of the City of New York, but as a faithful taxpaying law abiding citizen of a once great city. Once great because of it's current leadership. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", I once said about William Bratton, a truly great police commissioner, replaced by a puppet with strings attached to your fingers. A puppet named Howard Safir, a former Fire Dept comissioner now burning the rank and file of the NYCTA in Signal Department. Working for a boss who in my opinion has committed a crime far more heinous than a union leader who uttered the word "strike" in violation of an injunction. A political leader who believes in spending millions of taxpayers dollars to protect his idea of Free Speech, thereby silencing the Brooklyn Museum and the Transport Work's Union for some. A mayor who would not offer similar contracts to his own city employees but will vote himself a 30% raise and tell the governor he paid too much? You are an ELECTED officer, not a hired attorney. The biggest crime here is not your violation of US Labor Code 29 section 5, not your violations of free speech and freedom of expression, and not your ability to spend millions on corporate welfare to keep companies and ballteams from crossing the Hudson, but your biggest crime is that you have wriggled out of reach of the citizens who put you there in the first place. You are a very clever individual of whom can NOT silence my right and ability to vote. I will use that ability on November 7, 2000.
My most profound disrespect,
H. M. Greenblatt, TWO-Local 100
If I disappear from this site and you hear of a rep with cement shoes, you heard it here first.
Yes, there are many TA managers who view this site. Some of US actively participate while others simply lurk. I hope that's ok with you, Jeremy....
It's great....I like it when the "voices of the people are heard," and that we get to hear insights from you and others that others don't have the benefit of hearing. The name "TA Mgr" was not set up as an e-mail link, which got me thinking....
Well, I guess I should answer to all these inquiries. I did not set up TAMgr with an e-mail address. I use another address. I will say that I frequent SubTalk quite often. The reason I decided to post is because we were just recently looking at the A,C, J/Z, L and M lines after the Bridge re-opened. Ridership at the peak load points on the J/Z and Mary lines (Marcy in the AM, Essex in the PM) are far below what they used to be. Meanwhile, we can't add enough service to the L. The Fulton Street line remain about the same with a slight dropoff. Weekday and weekend service will be added to the L in the Fall.
How about weekend service of either the J or M through the Chrystie St. connection up 6th or 8th Av. (northern terminal can be worked out).
This would help with the crowds on the L. (The only portion of the system to have no direct service to Midtown even though there is a connection.)
I was just curious...glad to know "you're listening."
The timetable did not change for the L after the bridge re-opened. We are running the same level of service, it's that the people just
keep on coming.
You could have fooled me.
Number of trains assigned to L (8 cars of 60 footers)
3/1/98 : 18
6/30/98: 18
12/98: 21
5/22/99: 25
10/99: 19
Now you know why I am always saying the TA is full of $h@*!
When some one who claims to be a manager at the TA comes on here apolgizing for their inexcusable behavior, I call them on it.
Hmmmmm, then the L line overcrowding shouldn't be that bad.
The "L" train is VERY popular. Last time I was on it, November 8th, it was packed to the gills (we were aboard R40 #4432 and his company) by the time we got to Lorimer Street. Grand, Graham, Lorimer and Bedford are VERY popular stations. It's even crowded on the weekends, with 8-minute headways.
Wayne
"The "L" train is VERY popular. Last time I was on it, November 8th, it was packed to the gills (we were aboard R40 #4432
and his company) by the time we got to Lorimer Street. Grand, Graham, Lorimer and Bedford are VERY popular stations. It's
even crowded on the weekends, with 8-minute headways."
Can't be more popular than the A express which also serves Broadway East NY. Like the J/Z, at Bwy E. NY, almost everyone heads for the express train. Even L passengers... Just a wild guess.
N Broadway Line
As I recall, the L, or LL way back when, was busy on weekends even 30 years ago. When we would board at Lorimer St. for Manhattan on any Saturday afternoon, the train would have standees, among them some interesting people. Anyway, when we would get to Union Square, people would POUR out of the train. They wouldn't even wait for the doors on the BMT standards to open fully. It might be full when it pulled in, but by the time it left, not too many passengers would be left.
Next fall, a ride on the L from end to end would be high on my list of lines to cover. Hard to believe I haven't been through the 14th St. tunnel since 1970.
I thought that was fixed before the Willy B closure.
"With all this talk on SubTalk about future scrappings of R-38,40 and 42's, maybe the TA should hold off for a few years. These cars were given a general overhaul about 10 years ago and seem to be in decent shape. They shouldn't be scrapped unless they are totally shot and nothing can keep them running. The facts of a booming conomy,explosion in new housing,more jobs in Manhattan,new Fare Deals etc. have pointed to the fact that transit is booming! Transit has to reflect a booming economy. Keep those overhauled cars!"
As far as I'm concern, the R30's perform very well before they were scraped. Thus taking them out of service was the most stupidiest thing I can imagine.
N Broadway Line
I agree. They may have been hot during the summer, but they are badly needed today.
I miss operating those cars. BTW: I had the distinction of operating the last trip for those cars on the BMT (M line) before the last of them were transfered to the C line.
12/31/99
"As far as I'm concerned, the R-30's performed very well before they were scrapped. Thus taking them out of service was the most stupidiest thing I can imagine".
THE R-30's WERE CLEAN, DECENT AND GRAFFITTI FREE. THEY WEREN'T AIR COMDITIONED WHICH WAS THE GOAL THE TA WAS SHOOTING FOR. Except those R-33 singles.
Bill Newkirk
"THE R-30's WERE CLEAN, DECENT AND GRAFFITTI FREE. THEY WEREN'T AIR COMDITIONED WHICH WAS THE GOAL THE TA WAS SHOOTING FOR. Except those R-33 singles."
What a very stupid reason to scrap a decent running subway car.
N Broadway Linexpress
12/21/99
"What a very stupid reason to scrap a very running subway car"
Back in 1965 when the D-Types were removed from service and scrapped, I was told that the "D"'s were in the best condition. However, those new shiny "Brightliners" (R-32's) made the "D"'s look ugly and outdated, so the letter (S) was painted on their bodies and the rest is history.
Some other countries cherish and baby their antique equipment that runs past our cutoff year of 35. Things are different over here.
Bill Newkirk
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!
Why keep them all? There will be a new order of cars to replace them (R-145?), the R-143s will only augment them (no replacements, not even the the R-32GE).
The R32GE cars are going to be scrapped when the R143 shows up. That's a safe bet.
I don't know about that. The GE R32's (Phase I) are better performing cars than the Westinghouse (Phase II), mostly due to the troubleprone NY AirBrake system. The conventional wisdom is the slants and CI rebuilt R42's will be the first to be scrapped AFTER sufficient cars come in to increase service on the BMT/IND. But we are talking about a span of over 5 years.
Bill I believe he is referring to the ten GE/Buffalo Transit rebuilt R32s, the ones that don't have working A/C and look like R38s inside.
Perhaps instead of scrapping them they can revert to work service.
Wayne
Bill I believe he is referring to the ten GE/Buffalo Transit rebuilt R32s, the ones that don't have working A/C and look like R38s
inside.
Perhaps instead of scrapping them they can revert to work service.
Wayne
Anything is better than the welder's torch.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Even the welder building a brand new car?
The L should have been rebuilt with a middle express track for rush-hour service.
To this day I always refer to the Canarsie Line as a very long shuttle line (one track in either direction).
Doug aka BMTman
The L should have been rebuilt with a middle express track for rush-hour service.
To this day I always refer to the Canarsie Line as a very long shuttle line (one track in either direction).
Doug aka BMTman
When Chrystie St. opened, the TA designated the line "LL". Remembering the rollsigns on the Standards - 14th St. L'C'L, I figured that they just took the apostrophies and the C out. LL - the Local of Locals.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I remember those 14th St. l'c'l signs on the BMT standards very well...
How about the 14th St Exp signs?
How about the 14th St Exp signs?
The Standards did have 14th St. Exp signs. Why, I don't know. It is a 2-track line, unless they run express one direction and local in the other. That would mean being forced to take an express, overshooting your destination and back-tracking with a local to get to your station.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
12/31/99
And how about those signs on the Standards that said "14th St. LINE"
What was that all about?
Hey Doug, (not heypaul) rebuild the (L) Line as a three track line?.....sure!....after the Second Avenue line is completed!
Bill newkirk
There was express service from the 30's or earlier up until the 50's. (This included service to Lefferts using multisectionals, and after that was disconntinued, there was service to Canarsie). Trains simply ran non-stop from Myrtle to Lorimer, and locals began at Myrtle. So R-27~38 signs also had L-14th St exp., just in case this service started up again. R-110B has a gray K for skip-stop proposed years ago. But as someone said, Grand and Graham are heavily used now, so any express or skip-stop service would have to be scaled bck to those stations.
They had express signs because they ran express service on the 14th St line. Why waste a perfectly good sign?
Whether or not resuming such service after lapse of 44 years is germane to solving the present problem requires more study as to where the new traffic is boarding. Most of the posters indicate that the problem is most acute west of Myrtle Ave. So, raising express service from the ashes might be in order.
Express service is accomplished on the Metro North Harlem Line with only two tracks in use.
N Broadway Linexpress
Didn't the old 14th St. service that split off at Atlantic towards Lefferts before the closure of the Fulton el in 56 run non stop from Myrtle to Lorimer St? Maybe this is what the "14th Street exp." means.
The lead time on a new subway car can be as much as 3-5 years. Right now there is a projected shortage of 140 cars in the B division that will be needed for the extended 'Q' service in 2001.
when I mentioned that there are a lot less cars now than back in the 1970's, someone responded that they were no longer needed on the system. They seem to be needed now, don't they. The TA has been notorious for leaping before they look and burning bridges. Wouldn't it be great if they would have kept the R-27/30's? So what if they had no air conditioning. Frequency of service is more important than air conditioning. Besides, air conditioning is needed only 2-3 months out of the year. I, and a lot of people on this forum remember the entire suvbway system not having any air conditioning. Before the R-62's, the entire A-Division had no air conditioning, and that wasn't all that long ago.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
(Reasons for overcrowding on L line)
You forgot to list an influx of educated whites -- whose concerns manage to get on the radio -- in the area around the last stop before Manhattan, where it is hard to get on. I doubt crowding is more severe than on the Lex or Queens Blvd lines. Timetables show pretty good rush hour headways.
BTW, as per a person who lives there and is on the community board, the L train riders are too afraid of "the element" to take the J/Z/M, and were worried about what would happen during the bridge closing when all those people were on their train!
Ummmmm, the L passes through neighborhoods as dangerous as those of the J and M. Both are equally risky (or safe).
What's the deal with all those white people who get on at Bedford Ave.? They seem to be refugees from the East Village. It's here where you're most likely to see those "kids with purple hair" as John Rocker puts it. And now, these white folks seem to be moving east. I see them getting on the L way back to Graham Ave.
The Yuppies are Coming! The Yuppies are Coming!
There are occasional Buppies in there somewhere too.
Buppy = Black Urban Professional
I commend the Yup/Bup population on their 'clean up' and revitalization of former marginalized (i.e. bad) neighborhoods. They bring a stabilizing factor -- and financial growth -- to the business districts within those communities.
BUT (and it's a BIG one), they have a Manhattan-mindset which is annoying to many of us native New Yorkers. The Yuppie & Buppy crowd has this idea that to be cool, hip, happenning (or whatever else is the term these days), you must frequent Manhattan restaurants, clubs, muesums and art galleries. It's as if there is nothing to do in Brooklyn or the other outer boroughs. That's the quality of Yuppies that I can live without. They only live in places like Williamsburg or Greenpoint because they can no longer afford to live in the East Village or Alphabet City (Bowery area).
Comments are most welcome.
Doug aka BMTman
I think to qualify, you have to be from somewhere else, linked to Manhattan, and not know the rest of the city. That's why these folks are at Bedford -- its close to Manhattan -- living in housing that wasn't exactly build for the elite.
This one New Northsider was working with me on the census project. I drove her around the Stuyvasant Heights section of Bed-Stuy on a nice fall day. Beautiful! buildings, kids playing in the street, people happy to stop and talk to us about how many housing units they had. Why would anyone live in a tenament in Northside with rotting floor beams and a collapsing floor paying big bucks to the latest absentee landlord(she does -- the building has been flipped twice in two years) when for less money she could live in Stuy-Heights? Her tribe doesn't know its there yet, I guess.
Watch out -- the Yups 'n Bups are being financially getting forced out of Park Slope and are slowly settling in to Prospect Heights and the Western edge of Crown Heights (Franklin Shuttle's residential area).
I could bet my last nickel that the next big gentrification will be Stuyvesant Heights and the western edge of Bushwick (since it borders on Williamsburg).
I could be wrong, but the hunch (based on past resettlement trends) is there.
Doug aka BMTman
[Why would anyone live in a tenament in Northside with rotting floor beams and a collapsing floor paying big bucks to the latest absentee landlord(she does -- the building has been flipped twice in two years) when for less money she could live in Stuy-Heights?]
Simple: it's the proximity to their 'God', that paramecium shaped borough.
Where exactly is the Stuyvesant Heights section?
It's not very big but the area incompasses a triangular section of Bedford-Stuyvesant with Tompkins Ave. to the west, Stuyvesant Ave. to the east, Macon on the north and Fulton at the south. It's about 12 blocks with some gorgeous brownstones (the brownstoners have house tours sometime in the spring/early summer).
The A/C Utica Ave. train station has an exit at Fulton Park (west end platform exit). That is right smack in the middle of that historic district.
Doug aka BMTman
Not to split hairs, oh OK I am splitting hairs but with the borders you gave the Utica Station is not smack in the middle, its on the southeast corner of it!!!! But as someone who works in the area I can attest that some of those brownstones are simply beautiful, inside and out!!!
Well I used to think Brooklyn was worse off overall than Queens, but I'm starting to realize the opposite may be true. Flushing is a tough neighborhood in my opinion, there are alot of asian teen gangs, often blocking street corners and stores, hanging out by the 7 train Main&Roosevelt entrance. Police cars and ambulance sirens are almost a constant sound in Flushing.
Just a year ago Flushing was not so dirty did not have so many low-lifes. There used to be a nice Chinese community there. Now it's going to the gangs and lowlifes.
Now Sunset Park was totally different than I thought it would be. There were alot of chinese people around, and the streets were much cleaner than Flushing. There were plenty of families around. Also there were alot of fixed up brownstones and apartments. Did not see many lowlifes at all.
Now on the subway, there's a rough crowd on weekday afternoons on the 7 and E/F trains, but it seems there's less kids on the B & N trains when I took them at a similar time. Many more chinese people on the BMT lines in Brooklyn than any line in Queens.
Brooklyn is definately experiencing a revitalization, I hope it lasts. Flushing was supposed to be in a revitalization when the asian community moved in, I remember the bright neon lights in Chinese and Korean and beautiful girls just a few years ago. That was before the trash moved in. Now I hear that alot of people are getting mugged over there. I was there today and it was horrible, and I won't be back in Flushing for awhile.
The difference between Jamaica and Flushing is growing smaller, that's for sure.
[Well I used to think Brooklyn was worse off overall than Queens, but I'm starting to realize the opposite may be true. Flushing is a tough neighborhood in my opinion, there are alot of asian teen gangs, often blocking street corners and stores, hanging out by the 7 train Main&Roosevelt entrance. Police cars and ambulance sirens are almost a constant sound in Flushing. Just a year ago Flushing was not so dirty did not have so many low-lifes. There used to be a nice Chinese community there. Now it's going to the gangs and lowlifes.]
Interesting comments about the decline of Flushing. I've heard and read similar things elsewhere (though keep in mind that Flushing's a big area geographically, so there might be better sections). One thing that well illustrates the decline of downtown Flushing is the fact that AFAIK the old Caldor's store has lain vacant for more than a year. Normally, a big store site in a crowded area like that would be the economic equivalent of an ultra-high-speed printing press churning out $100 bills. The fact that the execs at Wal*Mart, Target, K-Mart etc. aren't selling their souls to Satan in order to snag the Caldor's site must mean that they know something - something not good - about the area.
If there's a larger lesson in the decline of Flushing, it's that neighborhood change is not _always_ in an upward direction.
Also the Stern's in Flushing is in bad shape. And even with the recent holiday season, it was not that busy. The inside of the Flushing Stern's is so depressing. I won't be suprised if that store closes also.
You'd think with the many bus routes, and the 7 train, Flushing's presence as a major transit hub would help bring business to the area.
And it is busy, but it seems to be less than it was, with it only crowded at rush hours.
There are some new chinese businesses open, but more are closing than opening. There used to be some good resteruants, but, they are not around anymore.
The two main Chinese bookstore (WJ Bookstore&Chung Hwa) seem to be closing earlier than they did a year ago(6pm instead of 7 or 8pm), and aren't as busy. In general I see alot less Chinese people around now than a year ago. It is quite amazing how things have changed for the worse so rapidly in Flushing. It seems to have accelerated quite abit since the close of Caldor. I don't see beggars there anymore, I guess even THEY know downtown Flushing is going downhill.
And the northside by Northern & Main is full of vacant stores, burnt out buildings, and more asian street gangs.
These asian street gangs were the last draw for me with Flushing. This time I'm not going back so fast. Alot of these gangs aren't all asian either, alot of them are mixed. Funny thing is I also see alot more asian yuppies there also, and BMW's are very common there
Even though Chinatown aint what it used to be, it doesn't feature the decay Flushing has, and I don't see that many gangs of kids.
The 7 train don't have many chinese people on at all, and the people that are on the 7 push and shove and are ruder than any other subway line I've rode. I eat at the Flushing McDonald's and people don't move out of the way when I need to leave when I say "excuse me". In the new Chinatown McDonald's (on Bowery) people hold the door for me, and one time, somebody even took the tray for me when I was done.
I guess that's the difference right there.
Also if you like Chinese food, the places in Flushing are horrible. Chinatown has much better chinese food.
Elmhurst/Rego Park seems to be stealing Flushing's shoppers, when the 63rd street connection opens it will further the process with expanded Queens IND service it will make the Queens Blvd line more attractive. They have alot of shopping there, the Queens Center Mall is always busy.
I just wonder where all the Chinese went in Flushing. Chinese stuff is another hobby of mine, and I guess I'm rather saddened seeing Flushing lose it's Chinese-ness. Now I have to go all the way to Chinatown to experience the chinese food, music, and of course the beautiful women.
Flushing's decay may be temporary. It is the part of Queens most likely to boom.
The business community is well organized, and just got a big upzoning of the area. Stores may be being left vacant as leases expire so buildings can be torn down and replaced with other buildings. Major developments are being planned for the Flushing River, which will no longer smell like people are flushing into it do to a sewage treatment plant improvement.
Of course, gang activity could scuttle all those plans and ruin the businesses. But unless the NYPD goes back to its old bag-the-body-and -fill-out-the-paperwork mode, I'm sure it will do something before the economy gets ruined.
The business community may be well organzied but I see little being done to get rid of the gangs. Some stores, like those in the lower level of Hong Kong supermarket plaza cater to these kids.
There are game rooms, and a brand new computer, music, and karaoke store that is a big hangout for these asian gangs, they often have "fake fights" right in the store, and the owners do nothing. Well that cost one store that sold music down there my business. Besides, they sit on the steps downstairs and nobody can get through.
These kids aren't exactly poor, since most of them are equipped with walkmans and minidisc players and video games, designer streetwear clothing, and they have dyed blonde hair of course.
There is the Flushing Chinese Business Association (FCBA) but I've seen little done about these gangs of kids. Complaints to the FCBA remain un-answered. Their failure, as well the failure of new asian community there to get control of their kin, will lead to a downfall of business in Flushing and lots of hurting businesses.
I haven't seen much police presence in Flushing, and when the NYPD is there they are usually for traffic enforcement, I've never seen them break up these loitering gangs.
As much as I want to support Flushing business, I too will join alot of other people and choose not to go there or shop there anymore.
Unless the asian community does a 180 and starts getting control of their community, Flushing's track is steadily downhill.
Language barriers could be a part of the problem with the out-of-control Asian gangs. The NYPD has so few Asian personnel that getting someone to infiltrate and squash this problem is not likely to happen solely by police action alone. The Asian Business Community has to take steps to discourage teen anti-social behavior. It might mean something as simple as creating a community recreation center where the kids can hang-out and play fight or whatever, without interferring with the general public.
BTW, I am always weary about seeing BMW's being driven by people who appear to young to own them. It could be a sign of drug activity as the BMW (street name "Beamer") is one of the cars of choice for drug dealers.
Doug aka BMTman
[BTW, I am always weary about seeing BMW's being driven by people who appear too young to own them. It could be a sign of drug activity as the BMW (street name "Beamer") is one of the cars of choice for drug dealers.]
I thought the Nissan Pathfinder was number one in that particular market.
I see alot of young asian kids and young asian professionals driving BMW's in Flushing. They often park or stand illegally at the N20/21 LI Bus bus stop, buses often honk at them but they do not move. Police cars drive by as if nothing is wrong, it seems only NYCT bus stops are patrolled for standing cars.
The police alone cannot gain control of these kids, only the parents, community, and business leaders can put a stop to this gang (and possible drug) activity. Problem is, these gangs have and could terrorize whoever tries to crack down on them.
I remember watching a show about Koreans in New York City and they spoke to a few people in Flushing. They were saying how out of control the American born (second and third generation)Koreans are, and how alot of them cause trouble. In the words of one Korean born Flushing resident, "I'm very worried at what's happening to my community, very worried". It seems within the past few months, I'm hearing police and ambulance sirens almost constantly in Flushing, like I was in the South Bronx or something.
I wonder why this hasn't happened in Chinatown. My only guess could be because Chinatown is a tight knit, working class Chinese community, whereas Flushing is a community of asian middle class professionals who are mostly American born and rarely spend time with their kids.
Most of these asian teen gangs speak english and know little of their own language.
Now there is a nicer part of Flushing, but that's really College Point.
Now I like the 7 line, but these kids often hang out and block subway entrances and nothing is done. I suggest to railfans to take the 7 to Willets Point and not take it all the way to Flushing unless you stay in the system, it's that bad at times.
I don't hear that much about the decline of Flushing in the media, I guess most people just don't care. It's a shame and it's upsetting, because there was such a nice Chinese community there just over a year ago. It is such a shame!
[I remember watching a show about Koreans in New York City and they spoke to a few people in Flushing. They were saying how out of control the American born (second and third generation)Koreans are, and how alot of them cause trouble. In the words of one Korean born Flushing resident, "I'm very worried at what's happening to my community, very worried". It seems within the past few months, I'm hearing police and ambulance sirens almost constantly in Flushing, like I was in the South Bronx or something.]
Well, I'm hestiant about engaging in ethnic stereotyping, but there has been some evidence in the last few years about a general deterioration in the behavoir of Korean young people - much of it provided by Korean adults. This problem seems to be more acute than among other Asian immigrant groups, exactly why this is the case no one seems to know. It is almost as if US-born Korean youths are picking up the worst parts of American culture - not the rags-to-riches, rugged-individualist parts, but the Shootout-at-the-O.K.-Corral, you-talkin'-to-me? parts. Possibly there are some characteristics in Korean culture that come into play. For example, the now half-century-old Cold War along the DMZ may have hardened Koreans and made them less fearful of violence than Asian groups with a more peaceful past. This is all speculation, of course, and we have to keep in mind the fact that most US-born Korean young people are not criminals and have assimilated just fine.
Actually according to the census there are more Koreans in Flushing than Chinese. It is estimated that Koreans are the most prevelant asian group in Flushing.
This probably can explain some of the reasons why there's such a deterioration there, since most Chinese youth does not cause so much trouble.
The question is can the Koreans get along with the chinese there, or not? I have a feeling that Chinese in Flushing aren't happy with what's happening downtown, since I've been seeing alot less Chinese
in Flushing.
I really think Flushing is going "down the toilet". With more "kids" there every time I go, it's no wonder more people are staying away from there. It's a pessimistic opinion, but I think Stern's is going to close this year and the gang problem is going to be more widespread, it may get so bad there could be shootings right on the streets.
One of the chinese bookstores may close or relocate, and I think ridership on the 7 will decline once the 63rd street connection opens. This sets Flushing on the track to becoming an "asian Harlem", full of gang activity, robberies, and even more ambulance sirens.
Flushing is already the car theft capital of NYC, according to the NYPD. By the next time the ball drops, most people will probably stay clear of Flushing, especially at night, and especially Roosevelt avenue, this street will be the center of all gang activity.
I hope it don't happen, but the way things are going it don't look too good.
Well have a happy and healthy new year!
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Korean youth -- much like Japanese teenagers -- love the worst of American culture. I've seen video footage from Japan where the kids there are HEAVILY into the graffiti culture, heavy metal rock bands, rap music, emulating the mafia and anything that is 180 degrees from what they were raised to respect.
True, American youth has a tradition of 'rebellion' against it's elders. However, the disturbing thing about the Asian youth rebellion is that it mimic's the worst cultural habits of another country's youth. It's as if our kid's cultural trends have gone global (I feel that MTV and all of that has alot to do with those aspects of this issue).
And of course, due to the very nature of traditional Asian culture, which is tightly controlled and patriarchial, this is the kind of situation that creates a backlish by the young who via cable TV and videogames sees that there is a much larger -- and creatively varied -- world beyond there own.
Doug aka BMTman
Last October I was given two tickets to Game 4 of the Mets/Braves game. It was the Sat. night game that the Mets won 3-2. Coming in for the game from Suffolk County, I decided to avoid the parking problems at Shea by parking in downtown Flushing and take the #7 for one stop.
I parked in the big municipal field one block north of Roosevelt Ave and one block east of Main Street. My friend and I then walked across the field and cut through the alley way (the "Somebody or other" Promenade) and went to Wendy's for dinner prior to the game. I was shocked by how "schlocky" the area had become. I had expected a lot of Asian stores but was unprepared for how garish they were. I could have been on Fulton St(Brooklyn) or Flatbush Ave or any other commercial area catering to a lower income level of shopper.
The game ended at 10:10 and we arrived back in Flushing about 10:30PM. It looked like a ghost town. Almost all the stores were closed including most of the food places. There were very few buses waiting to start their runs. If I had been by myself I might have been reminded of the Rodney Dangerfield line " I lived in a tough neighborhood -- they advertised apartments as -- Short run to subway--.
Its a shame since I remember Flushing as one of the places to go shopping in the 50's (before the malls). I remember the pizzeria's and other fast foods staying open to 1AM in the late sixties.
Considering the confluence of all the bus lines and the #7 and the LIRR, there are a lot of people passing through there for businesses to ply their trade and make money. Hopefully the area can be brought back to its former glory.
The main problem I have with Flushing is that the stores there are very untraditional. Some of them are quite messy (the cheap stores) but some of them are fancy, like the Korean stores.
I listen to chinese music, and sometimes hear songs I like on the chinese video show on channel 25 on Sunday nights.
Now these songs are from Taiwan and are in Mandarin, and most Chinese who are in Flushing came from Taiwan. The funny thing is, the songs that I like are often a few years old. That's considered "old" by the Flushing chinese store standards, and often, they don't carry "old" music, they just carry alot of new "pop" music.
But I always find what I want in Chinatown. I think Flushing sucks, their Chinese stores are a joke and are hardly "chinese" at all. Flushing's a tough neighborhood of whitewashed asians who smoke, cause trouble, and mimic the worst of American culture.
While Flushing may be busy during mornings and rush hours at night it does become a ghost town. I've always wondered what it was like after 9pm, since I never stay later than 9pm. Sounds like a very unsafe place to be. At night chinese stores close early and it's quite depressing. Compare that to Chinatown where most stores are open till 8 or 9pm, with resteruants open past midnight. Chinatown at night is much more "happening" than Flushing. But I've saved a few articles online that Flushing doesn't consider itself another "Chinatown", and the truth is it is far from one.
Because there is supposed to be this large Chinese and Korean presence, in order for Flushing to improve they have to embrace the "Chinatown" style. Perhaps when more real chinese stores come like in Chinatown then tourists will come and then mainstream businesses can come and fill empty spaces like Caldor's.
But as long as packs of "kids" walk the streets, Flushing will continue heading down the toilet.
Yeah, one other thing. It's not such a good idea to park in that municipal lot, according to the NYPD, Flushing is the car theft capital of NYC.
In my opinion it's such a shame how so many asians sell out.
The women are beautiful the way they are, they ruin themselves by
dying their hair blonde and stuff.
If these crazy asian kids are around in S.Korea or Japan, wow, that's really a shame.
Well at least China (not so sure about Taiwan) and Singapore avoid this out of control youth culture.
I live on Maui where Asians are 76 pct of the population, mostly Filipino from the Northmost Provence of Luzon (ilocos) where they worship Marcos because that is where he is from. Most of the kids here are first generation, and they pick up the worse of American crap. My wife is Filipina only being in the USA 8 years, and notices these things. It is not only on the mainland, it is here. The kids are rebelling from the old Asian Culture where the family comes first.
The kids are rebelling from the old Asian Culture where the family comes first.
Abandoning those values will be the downfall of their society. It was the traditional family values that made Oriental society. Those kids are fools.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"Abandoning those values will be the downfall of their society. It was the traditional family values that made Oriental society. Those kids are fools."
I couldn't agree more. European society is the downfall of all societies of the world (Asian, African, etc.)
I couldn't agree more. European society is the downfall of all societies of the world (Asian, African, etc.)
I don't agree with you. European society may have gone through the decline first, but there was once a time when European society (and American society with it) had high moral values and put a high value on family. The Asians are now just doing as the Western world is doing. The root cause of the decline of Western Culture and Civilization is kicking God out of our schools and our country and thinking that we can make our own moral standards. That's the problem. The Judeo-Christian foundation that this country was based upon has eroded. BTW, I consider myself an American. I have nothing but contempt for militancy, whether white or black. This great nation is a melting pot of all races and nationalities, coming together to form one. Racial and/or ethnic prejudice has no place in our country or this forum.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
As I've noted before, there's both good and bad in American culture. On the good side of the ledger, there's a belief in self-improvement, a belief that anyone can rise to the maximum of his or her ability without being constrained by a modest background. You won't see that in many other places. Also add such beliefs as entreprenurialism and a sense of honesty ("a man's word is his honor"). But there's a downside of American culture too, such as a tendency toward violence and, in the case of young people, a general lack of respect for one's elders. What seems to be the problem is that some (emphasis on some) immigrant youth, as well as the U.S.-born children of immigrants, pick up on the bad parts of American culture.
The 7 train serves alot of immigrant communities, not only Flushing, but Corona and Jackson heights as well. It is such a shame traditional
values from the Motherland get killed by the media. For instance, I like older "more traditionally oriented" Chinese pop music, yet when I
ask for it in the stores in Flushing I get wierd looks from these kids working here, saying "that song is old, we don't carry it here!" acting like they hate the music.
I used to be able to find alot of great music in Flushing. I also used to really enjoy riding on the 7 train. Now it seems there are more wild kids on there, and the scratchiti is some of the worse of the TA's fleet. It sometimes makes the front window look so un-inviting. The decline of Flushing has also meant a less appealing transit system in Flushing. The Flushing Redbirds are in much worse shape than the other IRT redbirds running on lines like the 2 and 5.
Casey Stengal depot buses are all scratched up and smell and ride like hell. All in all, Flushing has become so "Americanized" in every bad way, it is gaining the traits of the "hood" or "slum" where all the packs of kids and gangs hang out.
Even Jackson heights and some of the hispanic areas in Queens look better than Flushing. Especially around 74th and Broadway.
I won't even waste my time in Flushing anymore. When I want Chinese stuff I go to Chinatown. And in Chinatown the "chinese" eat in chinese food places. As one few years old Daily News article put it, "if you follow the chinese in Flushing trying to see which chinese resteruant does the best, you'll wind up in Wendy's, the newest fast food establishment to open there". "My kids are as American as apple pie" says one Flushing Mom.
I hate Flushing.I hate what it stands for. I hate all those girls who shed their beauty for the worst of American culture. I think they should be sent to China and learn about who they are.
If there's no more culture in this world other than the worst of American, where no ones likes good music, and all the beautiful girls are old and aged, it is a world that I don't want to live in.
I'm scared at what the year 2000 will bring. It's too hard for me to let go of my love for Chinese culture, thus, my anger toward these stupid, stupid, STUPID, asian kids in Flushing who should be flogged and whipped into shape IMMEDIATELY! I've got a message to all those fake people in Flushing.
If you're born Chinese, YOU ARE CHINESE! You shouldn't dye your hair just because you like American stuff. I was born European and I look european. I'm not dying my hair black because I like chinese culture. We must accept who we are and what God gave us and not change it. If we do, we are only cheating ourselves and our family. There's a difference between liking something different than you, it is only healthy, but trying to become someone you're not, that's a moral crime. I like Redbirds, but do I want to live in one? I don't think so, since transit trains are only meant to transport people.
I shudder to think what more pop culture and the media will do to us in the next century. I guess HIPPO trains are a result of our complacency with things. Today's trains just don't move you like the old ones. I love the way the Redbirds thunder through the Joralemon street tube. The only "new" trains that I like are the R44's and R46's, they are fast!
Too bad the Redbirds on the 7 have been neglected, but I guess that's just another reason to stay away from Flushing and stick with the Queens IND now.
PS I know some of this message was off topic, but I feel it has to do with subways because the 7 train is an important line to me, I love the emerence out of the tunnel and into Queens, the views and smell of food from the 'el, and the fly-over track with a great view of the globe. If Flushing does downhill so does the 7 train.
It just aint the same. The 7 train was more reliable and had clear railfan windows. Casey Stengal had the best buses. Now they have some of the worst. I wish all of you a happy new year, hopefully this year won't continue the horrible patterns of 1999.
"The root cause of the decline of Western Culture and Civilization is kicking God out of our schools"
God does not belong in public schools.
I agree about public schools being
religion free
but we hgave the same problems here in pasadena calif just like
some of you do in FLUSHING #7 line new york !!!
God does not belong in public schools.
All the horrible school shootings across this country occurred because this nation kicked God out of the public schools. You can't see that right now, but maybe some day you will understand. When we throw out God's morality and substitute our own, this is what happens to society. It runs amuck. What Moses received was not the Ten Suggestions, it was the Ten Commandments. You want that thrown out, OK. this is what you've got. Columbine and several more.
I just wanted to make a point about Western Civilization. I didn't mean to start another thread or even go off topic. Back to the trains. Next stop on this Third Avenue Thru Express will be 106th St. Watch the closing gates.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Those kids shot up the school at Columbine because they watched too much violent video games and were raised in a gun environment.
Although under most circumstances most kids know the difference between fantasy (video games) and reality. Unfortunately, the Columbine shooters did not, because they were on some kind of anti-depressants -- Prozac or some other drug. It is widely known that some of the drugs used on students for 'attention-deficient disorders' have negative side-effects. Columbine was a worst case scenerio.
Religion being taught (or not being taught) in the classroom had nothing to do with it.
BTW, this is WAAAAAY off topic.
Doug aka BMTman
"Religion being taught (or not being taught) in the classroom had nothing to do with it."
Thank you!
Teaching religion in public schools is impossible, even different sects of the same religion differ in beliefs.
Teaching the Ten Commandments in class is a good idea, the bible can be taught just as Greek Mythology is.
Teaching the Ten Commandments in class is a good idea, the bible can be taught just as Greek Mythology is.
You must be an athiest. Either that or you're just spiritually ignorant. Don't you realize that the Ten Commandments are part of the Bible? The same author wrote it all - God.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
That's why I mentioned them in the SAME SENTENCE.
Read it again.
And I won't respond to your latest comment, that has to do with faith.
The morality of "God" is our morality. The authors of the bible and the Ten Commandments didn't bother to educate the illiterate masses on morality and it's importance, instead they used the deity, who according to their views created the heavens and the earth and would therefore be powerful enough to punish offenders. Do you take children and reason to them, explaining to them the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do what they did, or do you yell at them and punish them? To children, their parents are the "God," although I assume they don't think they created the heavens and the earth.
The morality of "God" is our morality. The authors of the bible and the Ten Commandments didn't bother to educate the illiterate masses on morality and it's importance, instead they used the deity, who according to their views created the heavens and the earth and would therefore be powerful enough to punish offenders. Do you take children and reason to them, explaining to them the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do what they did, or do you yell at them and punish them? To children, their parents are the "God," although I assume they don't think they created the heavens and the earth.
Defy Reason is the perfect name for you. You actually do defy reason. I don't believe what I'm reading here. You have a warped and very convoluted concept of God and the Bible. Might I suggest that you read the Bible from cover to cover before you reject it as myth? In the Bible it says that God's ways are not our ways. That shoots down your theory "The morality of "God" is our morality". as for punishing offenders, God is a God of mercy as well as justice; a God of blessing as well as a God of wrath. Let me leave you with this:
Once you believe in God, you can't afford the luxury of unbelief. I challenge you. Read the Bible from cover to cover. Then tell me that you don't believe.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There are those who would say that I'm old enough to have been there during the Constitutional Convention ... and even when the Continental Congress was having its discussions that led to the Declaration of Independence ...
One thing many people seem to forget is that the Founding Fathers espoused freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. They were men of the Enlightenment, perhaps the greatest age of philosophical thought in the history of mankind. They all held to a belief in a deity, by whatever name you might choose to use - God, Jehovah, Allah, the Great Architect of the Universe, whatever. Atheism was NOT an accepted or even tolerated belief. (Jefferson, contrary to the views of some of his modern biographers, was not an atheist; rather, his belief in deity was more of an acknowledgment of the deity's existence rather than worship. And Franklin, while he did not attend services "except occasionally for his amusement", did have a strong faith that was true to his Quaker roots.)
God does have a place in our educational system. Our country was founded based on a belief system that embraces deity, and that embraces the idea of consequences for our actions - the idea that there is a Supreme Being to whom we must someday answer. English Common Law, from which our legal system is derived, is itself based on the Mosaic Law, including the Ten Commandments. The legal and moral code contained in the Hebrew Bible is an indispensible part of both our culture and our legal system, and should be taught in our schools. I firmly believe that our society would be stronger for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most of our 'Founding Fathers' were members of the FreeMasons. Many of them were supposedly of the high-order (possibly Illuminati).
Their religious beliefs were therefore far removed from those of the immigrants who later flooded this country (Christianity/Judaism).
Doug aka BMTman
As a Freemason and a Jew myself, I could discuss that at great length. Suffice it to say that, contrary to what a lot of people think about Freemasonry, the only religious belief that Freemasons must have is a belief in a Supreme Being. As a Jew, I know that to be God. A Muslim would use the name Allah. It's all the same, yet our faiths are otherwise very different.
And, by the way, only about one third of our Founding Fathers were Freemasons. All, however, were influenced by the Enlightenment. And the "Illuminati" you reference is another myth that has been perpetuated for years. No order of Freemasonry has ever been known by that name. There are many Masonic bodies, but the basic unit is the Lodge, often referred to as the Blue Lodge, which confers the three degrees of Freemasonry. There are additional orders and degrees - the Scottish Rite, which confers the 4th through the 32nd and the honorary 33rd degree; the York Rite, which consists of the Chapter, Council, and Commandery degrees [the Commandery degrees being specifically Christian in nature]; and others with which I am less familiar - but NO degree is higher than the third, they are merely additional.
Email me offline if you're interested in some additional information on the Masonic fraternity. It may take me a day or two to scrounge it up since most of my files are in North Carolina and I'm in New Jersey but I think I can find pointers to the same information on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are those who would say that I'm old enough to have been there during the Constitutional Convention ... and even when the Continental Congress was having its discussions that led to the Declaration of Independence ...
One thing many people seem to forget is that the Founding Fathers espoused freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. They were men of the Enlightenment, perhaps the greatest age of philosophical thought in the history of mankind. They all held to a belief in a deity, by whatever name you might choose to use - God, Jehovah, Allah, the Great Architect of the Universe, whatever. Atheism was NOT an accepted or even tolerated belief. (Jefferson, contrary to the views of some of his modern biographers, was not an atheist; rather, his belief in deity was more of an acknowledgment of the deity's existence rather than worship. And Franklin, while he did not attend services "except occasionally for his amusement", did have a strong faith that was true to his Quaker roots.)
God does have a place in our educational system. Our country was founded based on a belief system that embraces deity, and that embraces the idea of consequences for our actions - the idea that there is a Supreme Being to whom we must someday answer. English Common Law, from which our legal system is derived, is itself based on the Mosaic Law, including the Ten Commandments. The legal and moral code contained in the Hebrew Bible is an indispensible part of both our culture and our legal system, and should be taught in our schools. I firmly believe that our society would be stronger for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very good explanation and very well-put. Might I add that the concept of "Separation of Church and State" was not designed to do what its being used for today, which is keeping anything that has to do with religion out of the secular realm and out of public places. "Separation of Church and State" was designed originally to protect our religious freedoms from state manipulation and control. The root of "Separation of Church and State" had to do with preventing the "State" from establishing a state religion. Hence, the United States, unlike other countries has no "Official State Religion". The athiests (namely Madeline Murray O'Hare) twisted the entire idea of "Separation of Church and State" to mean something it was never intended to mean, and used that to literally take God out of not only our public schools, but out of anything "public" in our country. Teachers can be fired for teaching the Ten Commandments or anything of God in public schools.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Still, the idea of Public Schools was to give education to ALL children regardless of their religious upbringings. That was why prayer was dropped from the school system. Because our society is made of differing (and sometimes conflicting) belief systems -- including altheism -- the only way to avoid showing preference of one religion over another, the safest and sanest approach is through no-prayer in Public Schools.
And don't forget, if you want to pray, that's what Churches, Synagogues and Temples were created for. And if anyone feels that prayer in the schools is something they demand for their children, then send them to parochial schools. This issue has gone on for longer than I thought it would. Where are the R-9's in this???
Doug aka BMTman
How about those right wing idiots in Kansas who took Science(Evolution) out of the classroom, because it was anti Christian. How long was a day in those times. Millions of years, billions before any kind of life
"...And don't forget, if you want to pray, that's what Churches, Synagogues and Temples were created for. And if anyone feels that prayer in the schools is something they demand for their children, then send them to parochial schools. This issue has gone on for longer than I thought it would. Where are the R-9's in this???"
Just below!!! Schroll down!!!
BMT Lines: AWESOME PICTURES!!!
LOL
Doug aka BMTman
BMT Lines: AWESOME PICTURES!!!
LOL
Doug aka BMTman
I don't deserve the credit for the R-1/9 show. It was Jeffrey Rosen that displayed the pics, and the pics, BTW are courtesy of nycsubway.org. But, if he didn't do it, I would have, and I probably would have thrown in a Standard and a Triplex along with it. Oh, well. What the hell!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Thank Dave not me!! It was from this site!!! (Under the illustrated car roster section)
But the R1-9 was a IND Car., should have show a standard or triplex
Bob, I was just answering the question. Where is the R-9?
The Ten Commandments could and should be taught in our schools. The ancient clerics who taught these up were not wrong, but God should be excluded. The first two commandments could be replaced with ones that express respect of the human authorities.
The Ten Commandments could and should be taught in our schools. The ancient clerics who taught these up were not wrong, but God should be excluded. The first two commandments could be replaced with ones that express respect of the human authorities.
Ancient clerics didn't think these up. God etched them in stone. As for excluding God, that's why our society has run amock. You can't exclude God and express respect for human authorities. Without the love of God and love for God, there is no respect for human authorities short of fear, as in oppressive dictatorships.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[I don't agree with you. European society may have gone through the decline first, but there was once a time when European society (and American society with it) had high moral values and put a high value on family.]
I think it's worth adding that when you actually look at today's non-European countries, they don't stack up very well. Child labor, wife-selling, dictators, ethnic wars . . . Europe has certainly committed its share of abuses, from slavery to colonialism to Hitler, but as things now stand both this country and the countries of Western Europe are head and shoulders above most of the others from any reasonable moral and economic perspective.
Europe still has it's ethnic wars: look at Bosnia. And the Russians are acting up again with their neighbors.
It's just a matter of degrees.
Right now we are the world's policeman, so nobody's willing to mess with us, but occasionaly we have to go in and "break up a fight".
Doug aka BMTman
[Europe still has it's ethnic wars: look at Bosnia. And the Russians are acting up again with their neighbors.
It's just a matter of degrees.]
I think the big difference is a functioning democracy. Democracies are far from perfect--look at our own history--but particularly today they're less likely to make war on their citizens and neighbors.
As to Bosnia:
"Dalmatia, to which the name of Illyricum more properly belonged, was a long but narrow tract between the Save and the Adriatic. . . . The inland parts have assumed the Sclavonian names of Croatia and Bosnia; the former obeys an Austrain governor, the latter a Turkish pasha; but the whole country is still infested by tribes of barbarians, whose savage independence irregularly marks the doubtful limit of the Christian and Mahometan power."
--Gibbon, 1776
My wife went back to the Philippines in October. Her sister in law said you live in America, act American straked my wife s hair. When she got off the plane/ I was pissed. I told her it looked so unnatural and went out and bought her a bottle of clairol(But I never gave it to her) I am used to it, and she is getting a haircut this week, and it should be gone.
[Another thing to keep in mind is that the Korean youth -- much like Japanese teenagers -- love the worst of American culture. I've seen video footage from Japan where the kids there are HEAVILY into the graffiti culture, heavy metal rock bands, rap music, emulating the mafia and anything that is 180 degrees from what they were raised to respect.
True, American youth has a tradition of 'rebellion' against it's elders. However, the disturbing thing about the Asian youth rebellion is that it mimic's the worst cultural habits of another country's youth. It's as if our kid's cultural trends have gone global (I feel that MTV and all of that has alot to do with those aspects of this issue).
And of course, due to the very nature of traditional Asian culture, which is tightly controlled and patriarchial, this is the kind of situation that creates a backlish by the young who via cable TV and videogames sees that there is a much larger -- and creatively varied -- world beyond there own.]
I think some of this may come of the need/desire of the children of a newly arrived group to assimilate the local culture. Americans from families that have been here for a while inherit the local culture from their parents, and as we all know, that's different in many ways than what's on TV. Children with immigrant parents on the other hand are apt to take what they see seriously--and what's on television is seriously skewed towards violence and irresponsible sex covered by a thin veneer of hypocritical prigishness and do-gooding.
hey !!! dont come to los angeles the home of no transit systerm!!
what you just said in your last post IS WORSE HERE !!
[Flushing's decay may be temporary. It is the part of Queens most likely to boom.
The business community is well organized, and just got a big upzoning of the area. Stores may be being left vacant as leases expire so buildings can be torn down and replaced with other buildings.]
Well, maybe. But "coming soon" is an utterly meaningless term when it comes to construction. To change a metaphor slightly, the path to Hell is lined with big real estate developments that are "coming soon." Case in point: in the middle to late 1980s, Hartford, Connecticut had enough planned downtown office towers to give it substantially more office space than Boston. A popular gift-shop item was a wall poster with architectural renderings of the new buildings, looking something like a section of Midtown Manhattan. As things actually happened, the local economy collapsed (the "Great Recession," as it's still called in the area), and the buildings remained on the drawing boards of laid-off architects. You probably can get those posters for 25 cents in junk stores today.
My point is that talk about the revitalization of Flushing, or any other area, is just that, talk. Don't believe anything until you see the construction workers on the job, or at least until the projects have final zoning approval and full financing in place. Anything less is the real estate equivalent of vaporware.
>>>My point is that talk about the revitalization of Flushing, or any other area, is just that, talk.
Don't believe anything until you see the construction workers on the job, or at least until the
projects have final zoning approval and full financing in place. Anything less is the real estate
equivalent of vaporware. <<<
Absolutely--we've been hearing and reading for 25 YEARS about the construction of an Atlantic Terminal at Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues. Meanwhile, the LIRR's flagship station in Brooklyn remains a large hole in the ground...and is likely to remain one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't really call it a Chinatown...It was founded by Taiwanese Immigrants to distinguish between the Cantonese founded Chinatown in Manhattan...I guess the Taiwanese got tired of Flushing, I do see some Chinese use Flushing to go grocery Shopping, and use Manhattan Chinatown to go eating...
Try the mainland Northern Chinatown in 9ave in Brooklyn, founded mostly by recent Shanghai and Northern Chinese immigrants.
Flushing's Asian population is mostly Korean, not Chinese. And they didn't "found" Flushing. Flushing has been a bustling, immigrant community in Queens for over a century. The Koreans have replaced the Irish and German population that once thrived in Flushing.
It was founded as in it was a good place to set up a business.
The Koreans stole a whole bunch of Real Estate from the Chinese there. had it not been for them, Flushing Chinatown would be bigger.
But, I prefer the Manhattan Chinatown over Flushing anyway, Too many "TIers" out there anyway...they didn't even acknowledge Macaos homecoming as an event.
*TIer= Someone who supports Taiwan Indepedence.
Not to go way way off topic, but Tiawan is an independent nation. China needs to deal with that fact.
I'll consider her Indepedent when and only when she drops that moniker of "Republic of China" if she wants to be Indepedent then she should drop all references to the Motherland, and return all Cultural Treasures, and Historical Artifacts that Chiang Kai Shek made off with in his cowardly run to the shores of Taiwan...
I am and will always be anti-TI
Province yes, Independence NEVER!
Taipei would probably be more receptive to a reunification if there were not an oppressive Communist government in Beijing.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(where we don't usually discuss international politics)
Whats so oppressive about it? Did't your gov't oppress the poor Branch Davidians? (another cous. of The Falungong Sect?)
anyway, on to the Subways....
The Davidians had guns and explosives, Falun Gong's main threat is (was) they are (were) more numerous than the communist party in China so, even though they just sat around and meditated, they were SMASHED by Beijing. Meanwhile, The Davidians KILLED several law enforcement people and after weeks of negotiations, the US government retook the Davidian headquarters.
Yes, and if we left the Falungong to their own devises they'd be the same as the Davidians...they probably have ties with the TI Movement too.
I'm glad Beijing resolutely squashed those troublemakers...
Zhonhua Ren Min Gong He Guo Wan Sui1, Wan Wan Sui!!!
10000 years to the Peoples Republic!
If the People Republic is so great, why did millions of people try to get out to Hong Kong, and people still trying to leave. And why is the HAN perscutting all the other minorities, especially Tibet. I was in Tibet 2 years ago and saw what was done, forcing the Han to move there to become a majority. All the best jobs there are held by the Han not the Tibetians
Hmm Western Media Again? That was 2 freakin' Years ago, they saw what has happened, Not a Freakin' Thing has happened...so they moved back.
We never persecuted anyone, more Western Media BS...must've read too much "Cocks" Report...you must also believe we stole your freakin' missile tech LOL....
I tell you, If all of the Chinese Physicists left the Nat. Labs, You can't even make a new generation nuke...
You were in Tibet two years ago, and saw tibet with Biased Eyes my friend.
I was also in Beijing, Shanghai and other places in China. It the PRC is so good, why are you here in the USA, To make money. Why did millions of people run from the Reds into Hong Kong. Why did the PRC close down a democratic elected govt in Hong Kong. What are those old men afraid of. That they will loose out like the Russians did, and China will split into many ethnic countries like Eastern Europe, and the Minorities will take revenge on the Han. It will happen my Han Friend sometime in the 21st Century. Maybe not in our life times but it will happen. The Communist Govt is bound to fail. What goes around comes around.
Brighton Express #1 Bob: I get the feeling we are wasting our good time on that no good fart. It's a wonder that someone hasn't done a toe dance on his shattered head.
>>>We never persecuted anyone, more Western Media BS.<<<
Tiananmen Square. A few tanks, I think? A few deaths?
Tiananmen Square..was to stop groups like Branch Davidians (Democracy Activists) from spreading their cancer...like what they're doing to the FalunGong Cult...
Those deaths, who cares...I don't...besides, you've seen what democracy does to Countries...ie. Russia, You killed it!
A few tanks?, should have use a few m-80s 'twould be nice to see those democracy fanatics parts falling all over the place, if you ask me...they shoulda done more...
and don't blame me for this attitude, started when NATO/USA bombed the hell outta poor Serbia and then had the Audacity to Bomb the Chinese Embassy, that was the straw that broke my back...
I have turned against the US...the Country I was Born in, shame...she lost all my respect.
[I have turned against the US...the Country I was Born in, shame...she lost all my respect.]
There's frequent, possibly daily air service from JFK to Beijing. I'm sure you could afford a ticket ... one way.
[There's frequent, possibly daily air service from JFK to Beijing. I'm sure you could afford a ticket ... one way. ]
I think that a bit harsh. This is a free country and the gentleman is allowed to express his opinions.
I agree. Having not lived in Taiwan -- or any Asian Pacific country -- it is not up to me (or most of us here) to comment on something we have not experienced. How many of us here have lived or spent time in Taiwan or Mainland China?
Doug aka BMTman
[I agree. Having not lived in Taiwan -- or any Asian Pacific country -- it is not up to me (or most of us here) to comment on something we have not experienced. How many of us here have lived or spent time in Taiwan or Mainland China?
Doug aka BMTman]
Its not just a matter of Chinese and Taiwanese politics. Haven't you read all of what this scumbag had to say about the United States? Even though he was born here, he should be stripped of his US citizenship and deported to Beijing. He is anti-American and he is obviously one that the Chinese Communist Party in Beijing would be very proud of.
You're right, and I don't like what he said about our country -- BUT -- that is the beauty of living here. The freedom to express your viewpoints without the strong arm of the law (military?) coming down on you.
He is certainly opinionated, but I am not an expert on Chinese affairs so I am not going to get into a 'he said/she said' kind of argument here.
This is a transit site, and hopefully all of us will return to that topic ASAP.
Doug aka BMTman
My apologies for starting this conversation. I though I was just stating a fact, not something controversial.
My apologies for starting this conversation. I though I was just stating a fact, not something controversial.
A few months ago, when President Lee of Taiwan indicated that any reunification talks need to be conducted on "a special state-to-state basis", it inflamed the Beijiing government almost to the point of war. The status of Taiwan is an extremely sensitive issue among the Chinese, who see Taiwan as a renegade province, and Taiwan itself, which never really declared its independence, but is very cautious (to say the least) about rejoining the Mainland. I could understand hot-headedness over the issue, particularly by someone who is of Chinese heritage, but I cannot and will not tolerate anyone, foreign or American born, verbally slamming the United States.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
America was chiefly responsible for making China a permanent member of the UN security Council. They should be grateful for that.
I'll just chalk this topic up under the title "Things not to discuss with anyone named Chung", like Northern Ireland, which is on my "Things not to discuss with anyone name O'Mally" list.
America was chiefly responsible for making China a permanent member of the UN security Council. They should be grateful for that.
Communists are never greatful for anything. They always bite the hand that feeds them. It was a big mistake on the part of the United States. So is trading with them. Tiennenmen Square occurred because the Chinese government saw what the democracy movement did in Russia, and they were afraid their government would be toppled also. So they did what any oppressive government would have done, and that's a brutal putdown of the movement, using it as an example of what would happen to anyone who would try to continue it. China is notorious for stomping on human rights, even more so than Russia was during the Soviet era. As for the way Mr. Cheung feels about the Belgrade Embassy bombing, doesn't he see that China's accusing us of doing it intentionally is just a political ploy to make the United States look bad? They got every bit of political mileage out of it as possible. Politically and militarily, NATO and the United States had nothing to gain by intentionally bombing the Chinese Embassy. It was clearly an accident, an act of carelessness that should never have happened. But it did. We apologized for it countless times and paid reparations to the Beijing government. What more can our country do?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Am I the only one who feels he is just a troll trying to cause trouble in SubTalk?? Is it just a coincidence that his posting came the same day as the other person saying he is starting up subway grafitti again. Ignore both!!!
Jeff: You may have a point there. I will follow your lead and cease and desist in my responses to that fool. Back to the transit. Read my new message. I need another answer concerning the various type trains that were used on the BMT or IRT lines.
[[There's frequent, possibly daily air service from JFK to Beijing. I'm sure you could afford a ticket ... one way. ]
[I think that a bit harsh. This is a free country and the gentleman is allowed to express his opinions.]
Another one of the freedoms we have in the United States is the freedom to leave the country whenever you want. If our pal Sherman Cheung (if that's really his name) is SO unhappy with this country, there's nothing keeping him here.
[Another one of the freedoms we have in the United States is the freedom to leave the country whenever you want. If our pal Sherman Cheung (if that's really his name) is SO unhappy with this country, there's nothing keeping him here.]
I'm sure Red China and the "Party" would welcome him with open arms.
And if you can't Sherm, I'm sure Pete, Doug, Chris and myself would gladly take up a collection to get your sorry ass out of the US.
I retire. It's a transit forum, after all...
I have turned against the US...the Country I was Born in, shame...she lost all my respect.
You're a disgrace to the United States. You're a commie - a red dog. Go home to Beijing where you belong.
You're a disgrace to the United States. You're a commie - a red dog. Go home to Beijing where you belong.
I can think of many more discraceful acts that the United States has committed than what this gentleman has said. He is entitled to express his opinions just like you or me. I prefer Voltaire's reaction.
There is nothing keeping you here, Try this Bullshit in the Peoples Republic. I know many people out there will be glad to p0ut you one one of those Illeagle Smuggling ships, that youir fellow Han charge thousands of dollars to smuggle people into this country, to work in sweat shops, whore houses and slavery. A couple of nights in one of those and you would be very happy to be back smoking dope on Mott and Pell Streets. I have said my say. Grow up,
Why is everyone answering this obvious troll?? He's probably the same guy who said he did the grafitti in the earlier post.
The real Sherman Cheung is an active volunteer with the Electric Railroader's Association, handling publication sales for the national office. I don't know him personally so I can't comment on whether or not the comments fit the man.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sherman: As the old song goes: HIT THE ROAD JACK AND DON'T YOU COME BACK NO MORE NO MORE NO MORE NO MORE, HIT THE ROAD JACK AND DON'T YOU COME BACK NO MORE. And what's this WE crap. If you are living here and your loyalty is to that filthy rotten crapola country that turned its guns on its own people at Tienemen (sic) Square, then hit the road before someone turns you into a bowl of mush.
Cool off Fred, I am having a ball with this fool. He probably has never been West of the Deleware River, and definately been to China. I am still waiting to hear his answer if China is Paradise under the Reds why are they sanctioning the smuggling of people who pay thousands of dollars to come here to the USA and working as slaves and whores. I do agree with the Peoples Republic though, Justice is swift on Capitol offenses, a bullet behind the ear, and the bill for the bullet sent to the family.
What about Tibet, I guess Sherman thinks that the genocide the PRC did there was called for, or how many people were murdered by the the PRC Govt during the Cultural Revolution. But we are getting off the subject.
What Genocide? Tibet is an integral part of greater China, it is insurance for us HAN people in case the eastern part of China becomes full.
The Tibetans are still there, just the Child Molesting Dalai lama is missing, he was no good for Tiber anyways, you people always say a Religious Theocracy is bad for a country, why would you impose a Theocracy on Us or on Tibet? Why don't you let those Baptists impose a Theocracy on you, you'd be yelling and screaming against it..
besides the only people who wants indepedence are the slave owners and landowners...
trust me, China has done a lot of good for those savages.
When were you last in Tibet, or even China.? You never answered the question of the Cultural Revolution Greater China, you are talking like a PURE COMMUNIST IMPERIALIST. Yes Imperialist, movbing into other areas and cultures and taking what you can from the local populations. Do the Han who come to Tibet come there by Choice, No they are exiled there for at least 7-10 years before they can get govt permission to move back home. Take jobs from Native Tibetians. Yes the old Tibetian Culture was a religious Feudal Society, but they did not ask the Han to come in there. Tibet had lived for centuries in peace with Imperial and Nationalist Chineese Govt, When they need some thing from China they asked. Tibet did not send troops into Beijing to bomb it s temples, loot its treasures., What Right did Mao have. No govt ever reconized that Tibet was part of China, at any time in the last 700 years.
You must be Jack Churchwards friend...http://www.caccp.org/
I took care of him this Xmas break...sadly he won't be producing any Anti-Chinese stuff on the web in Florida for a while...
No actually the Hans, are happy to go there, and garrison the presense there... and No I am not a Communist Imperialist, I'm Not Communist or Capitalist for that matter, I just don't like what the West is doing to Countries that do not get on the ground and kiss its tushies...ie. Serbia, China, Russia, Cuba...
Tibetans peaceful!????!!!!!!!!!!!!!, LOL...What crappy book are you reading?
Beijing Never Bombed or Loot any Tibetan Savages treasure or Monastery, but the Tibetans did loot ours in the Tang Dynasty, Maybe its for that very reason...we DO have Long Memories...Like Greeks, Armenians, Serbs and other Balkan People.
You should also ask what right did Mao have to cut up the Motherland and give Stalin Outer Mongolia, and Confirm the defacto ownership of Russian Far East and Manchuria and Vladivostok...I don't think Mao had anything to with Tibet...Because Tibet was ours for 5000 years of Our Han Chinese history, Go ask where the Tibetans really came from...they'll say Central Asia and Afghanistan.
No Gov't recognized Chinas ownership of Tibet because they were Inperialist and had Eyes on Tibet too. It was all a ruse to tear apart the Great Motherland...as the Western Nations and so-called Human Rights activist are still doing today.
maoist education, If the Western Imperialism is so bad what the hell are you doing living in this country,I am no racist, I have alot of Chineese friends, Most of them are children of parents who fled the Peoples Revolution. They live here in the USA, Singapore, Hong Kong and they have no love for the Peoples Republic. China has been one of the biggest Imperialist Countries for Centuries, Even if the Dynsasty were Mongols, Manchus or Hans. What Chinese did you ask if they were happy living in Tibet, a soldier of the Red Army. They are so happy there that the Army has to bring in Prostitutes so they won t be so9 lonely. Democracy is a poor form of govt, but all the others are so much worse
1Brighton Express Bob: I'm taking your advice, as usual, of cooling off, but you have to admit that the guy is getting a little under your collar as well. What really bugs me is that he's an American born person of Chinese ancestry. That's disloyalty. But I'm going to ignore him from here on in. I'm already cooling off.
Mao didn't give Outer Mongolia to Russia. Mongolia declared its independence from China in a 1924 revolution and became the 2nd permanent Communist state. In the Yalta Conference of 1945, a secret protocol recognized the Soviet Union as the principal power in Mongolia. Mao in 1945 was the leader only of the Chinese 8th Route Army fighting the Japanese from the caves of Yenan in North China. For a pro-Commie, you're not up to date on Chinese history, but this proud American is.
Fred it was not the real Sherman, just some young putz. So don t waiste your breath, I doubt that we are going to happen to him. Maybe he got caught up in some Chinatown Tong Rumble. Bob
"It is insurance for US HAN people in case the eastern part of China becomes full". Ok, then what will become of the Tibetians *3 Guesses*
Guess 1-Extermination started 2-Deportation to where, 3-Inter marry only forceabbly.
Also I consider Most democratic Countries as Oppressive if Not more Oppressive than Communist Countries...
But then thats what Western Media does to our minds it turns our brains to mush.
Also I consider Most democratic Countries as Oppressive if Not more Oppressive than Communist Countries...
Then leave, you red dog. You belong in red china where the communist party persecutes, oppresses and makes everyday life miserable for the masses. You commie scum. You should be kissing the American soil and thanking your lucky stars that you're not in Beijing. Go home motherf--ker! You're not welcome in my country!
Then leave, you red dog. You belong in red china where the communist party persecutes, oppresses and makes everyday life miserable for the masses. You commie scum. You should be kissing the American soil and thanking your lucky stars that you're not in Beijing. Go home motherf--ker!
This gentleman is a native born american. He has the same right to express his opinions as you or me.
You're not welcome in my country!
BTW, when did you buy it? :-)
[Then leave, you red dog. You belong in red china where the communist party persecutes, oppresses and makes everyday life miserable for the masses. You commie scum. You should be kissing the American soil and thanking your lucky stars that you're not in Beijing. Go home motherf--ker!
This gentleman is a native born american. He has the same right to express his opinions as you or me.
You're not welcome in my country!
BTW, when did you buy it? :-)]
I love this country. Do you, or do you buy into this dude's communist rhetoric? It doesn't matter if someone is born here. If he's a traitor, either jail him or deport him. I have no tolerance for anyone who hates the United States. If he doesn't like the way things are in the US, let him leave. If you agree with him, then you can go with him to Beijing.
One of the great freedoms we have in this country is the freedom to make an a$$*@!^ out of oneself. Until someone takes an overt action against the common good, they cannot be considered a traitor - just an idiot. And, as we all know, there's no law against stupidity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He knows he can t say half the things he says in the People s Republic. In fact he could not even be on the internet, unless he was a Party Member in China. RIGHT COMRAD?????
[I love this country. Do you, or do you buy into this dude's communist rhetoric? It doesn't matter if
someone is born here. If he's a traitor, either jail him or deport him. I have no tolerance for anyone
who hates the United States. If he doesn't like the way things are in the US, let him leave. If you
agree with him, then you can go with him to Beijing. ]
People like you scare me. The United States is about tolerance for diverse points of view. That's why the First Amendment is in the Constitution - it's there because the people of the not-so-united ex-British colonies that formed the United States demanded it (and the rest of the Bill of Rights) as a condition of ratifying the Constitution which created the Federal government. They knew that any government able to command blind obediance and forbid criticism was a tyranny.
I honor the people who fought and died in the American Revolution for the cause of genuine human freedom. I mainly pity the people who fight in the U.S. military today in the mistaken impression that they are fighting for freedom when they in fact are fighting for U.S. imperial domination of the world.
Our founders were very much aware of how the ancient Roman Republic degenerated into the Roman Empire, and took pains to try to prevent that happening in this country. Alas, it appears that they failed. Anyway, that is my opinion, and if you don't like it, tough! It is still a (reasonably) free country, and as long as it is, I will say what I believe to be the truth. If it ever ceases to be free enough for me to say what I believe, then I will fight against it in every way I can. That day, thank God, is not here - but rhetoric like that quoted above can hasten it.
P.S. Although Pat Buchanan has picked up the "Republic, not Empire" theme, I most assuredly do not support his racist ideology.
Now... back to transit? This discussion seems related only in the Latin, namely to the expression sic transit gloria mundi (thus passes the glory of the world). Speaking of which...
Does anyone remember the headline in the Daily News a few years ago when teams of transit workers from the #4 and #7 lines faced off in a baseball game? It was Seek transit glory Monday!
"...people who fight in the U.S. military .... are fighting for U.S. imperial domination of the world."
As a patriotic American who supports his country and the fine men and women who selflessly serve in the military let me assure you, the last thing we want is to force our will over other countries. They are welcome as friends and as those who wish to emulate our system of government. As to those who desire neither our friendship nor our form of government, nothing could suit us finer than to let them rot alone in their communistic slavery.
"Our founders were very much aware of how the ancient Roman Republic degenerated into the Roman Empire, and took pains to try to prevent that happening in this country. Alas, it appears that they failed"
Uhhh, last time I looked we Americans vote for our leaders. I suggest you take a look too.
[Uhhh, last time I looked we Americans vote for our leaders. I suggest
you take a look too.]
Yeah, but have you looked at the QUALITY lately.
I mean we gotta do better than Rudy G., Hillary, Gore the Bore and George W. Bushwacker....
Doug aka BMTman
Flattery will get you nowhere. I still choose not to run.
Alan
THERE IS ALWAYS DOLLAR BILL, ALL AMERICAN, ALL PRO RHODES SCHOLAR. Have you guys noticed this putz has not been on line for a few days. Also as American as the rest of you, if he is a native born American, we can t deport him. Blame a lot on the 14 admendent to the Constitution which means that anyone born in the USA is a Natural Born Citizen. This was done for the freed slaves 135 years ago, and should be addmended in this day of age to stae that the child is a citizen if born here. To either a legal Alien or that one parent has to be a American Citizen. But that won t happen because our Latin American neighbors will not go for that. Now back to the subway and forget that guy, he was a phoney anyway
Why should the children of illegal aliens suffer? What if both parents are legal alien residents and bear a child within the 50 United States, the child doesn't deserve to be an American citizen? I can understand qualms about giving citizenship to those whose parents were not supposed to be in the United States to bear their child, but in the latter case, of what nation will the child belong?
On another note, there should be another amendment, eliminating the domestic birth requirement for the presidency. It was created 223 years ago to prevent Alexander Hamilton from becoming president.
I wonder if Henry Kissinger would've run.
How about ARNOLD SCHWARTZENAGGER. If the parents are legal and hold Green Cards fine. But so many times Women sneak into this country from, Mexico, to have their child, so they will be American, and go back. What other country in the world give automatic Citizenship to people, just be cause they are born here, and their parents are not citizens. It only takes about a year for a parent to get their Visa if their child is a American Citizen, and that includes parents, and minor siblings under the age of 18. I am not against Immigration, my wife is one. But why reward people who break the law. Yes people come here to better themselves. So did our parents and Grandparents. But now a days it seems people do not want to learn our language(English) and Culture. Yes they can keep their culture that is what is great about the USA, but ask any 1st Grade or Kindergarten Teacher in a School district where there are a lot of minorities. The kid is born here, but can not speak English, and falls behind. Imersion classes have not worked. Our Grandparents had to learn to read and write English to become Citizens. Now the ballots are in English, Korean, Tagalog, Chineese, Spanish, Vietnameese. WELCOME TO THE USA NOW SPEAK ENGLISH. If we moved to their country we better learn their language.
YES!!! Bilingual education MUST be eliminated. We must also have English as an official language, and eliminate the loopholes that allow someone to become a citizen without taking an English skills exam.
>>>WELCOME TO THE
USA NOW SPEAK ENGLISH. If we moved to their country we better learn their language. <<<
I am afraid that horse has left the barn years ago. Immigrants now stick with their own languages, and build their own enclaves within the USA.
Not if we stop postingb things in other languages, ballots, DMV Tests etc. The only place where Spanish should be posted is Puerto Rico.
Probably would've been shot by the KKK.
Do you know his background?
Haven t heard from him since that one day
Before any of you nitpickers (not that there's anything wrong with that, really) start to mention it. The constitution was 213 years ago. It guess I got carried away in the fun of making repeating numbers.
John McCain is the one and I,m A DEMOCRAT
George W, is the guy and I'm a Republican. We want a guy who can win, but if many Democrats want McCain, maybe it will be a close race for the nomination. Here in California you can vote in whatever primary you want. By the way, the LA Subway will have a new station very shortly. We're alowly pushing out from downtown LA to the San Fernando Valley.
When is the extension opening? I'll be in LA on the 17th of March (flying in) and have never ridden the system. If I can arrange my schedule to arrive the 16th I'll be able to try and ride it all on the 17th, otherwise I'll probably have to settle for just a short hop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The whole round trip on the R Line from Union Station to Hollywood should take less then a hour. Try the Blue Line Lt Rail to Long Beach, the Green is boring. Or even better Amtrack to San Diego or Santa Barbara along the Coast
George W. Bushwacker? The guy can barely complete a sentence....
McCain should be the Republicans choice. Why Bush, because his father was a President? There isn't much a reason to vote for him besides name recognition. And it ain't much of a name.
Agreed. George W is a rich kid, what did I hear again No NEW TAXES, who is supported by the Insurance Industry, and Oil Companies, Wasn t his brother going to be indicted in a Savings and Loan Scandle back in the 80s, and Daddy Stepped in to stop it, No More Southern Govenors for anouth 20 or so year.
>>>I mean we gotta do better than Rudy G., Hillary, Gore the Bore and George W. Bushwacker.... <<<
...and the wrestler, the bigot, the tycoon and the midget in the other party.
We have elections, but what are the choices? George Bush and Bill Clinton were buddies in the corrupt drug trafficking that passed through Mena airport in Arkansas. It was a non-choice, as are many others.
I agree that most of the people in today's military are honorable men and women who believe they are fighting for a noble cause. But I doubt the ultimate validity, though not the sincerity, of that belief. For example, when U.S. forces blew up a bridge in Belgrade carrying a passenger train, a film was released showing how the train entered the bridge at the last second, and the generals claimed that the pilot "didn't have time" to cancel the firing of his missile. It now transpires that the film was speeded up by a factor of three when it was shown, meaning the pilot actually had about 3 seconds to cancel, which should have been enough. The military decided it was "not useful" to release this information.
OK, I'll stop. Maybe I shouldn't have started at all, or should have posted only the first paragraph of my previous post. It's late, and I'm online largely because I'm having trouble sleeping. This stuff is off-topic - or is it? Was there ever anything on this site regarding public transit in Belgrade, Yugoslavia?
Please no room for cursing at people. I don't agree with all the comments Sherman has made but this is supposed to be America, so the opposing view should be allowed.
China's still got problems, but it doesn't mean the USA treats the East right. If you go to Chinatown and listen to this great music and see the culture, and see the ignorance of it by the media hopefully you'll understand.
Also I'd like to point out that there is much more new rail transit construction in China than in the USA. In China they would just built the 2nd avenue subway, since there wouldn't be so much legal haggling.
The NYC subway system should have expanded much more than it has. They built the IRT in Manhattan in less than 5 years, why can't we build a 2nd avenue subway that fast and fix the Manhattan bridge problem today?
Also I'd like to point of the "commie" way the city not lets us in front of City Hall or see the original City Hall station.
Please no room for cursing at people. I don't agree with all the comments Sherman has made but this is supposed to be America, so the opposing view should be allowed.
Anti-American rhetoric and hatred for this country is not exactly an "opposing view". Its more like treason. The KKK with all their hatred against non-WASPS is ugly and detestable, but at least they're not tied to an enemy country whose number one ambition is to do the United States in. This American Chinese communist is. I have no problem with anyone's views on Taiwan's status. I don't even have a problem with Communist China's status, but I can't watch this anti-American who was born here spew his contempt for this country and say "Oh well, he has freedom of speech". Your reference to Chinese culture and the ignorance of the media has nothing to do with this either. Its not the Chinese people or their culture that I have anything against. Its Marxism and anti-Americanism that I have everything against. Hey, if this creep had his way, nobody in this country would have freedom of speech. The Chinese flag would be flying over the White House and we would be under the domination of the Chinese communists. That's his view. As for the Chinese building a subway, that wasn't mentioned, just alot of anti-American rhetoric. Its really something how everybody seems to be defending this anti-American's right to spew his hatred and contempt for this country, but nobody seems to feel that none of this talk belongs on a transit BB in the first place.
"Its really something how everybody seems to be defending this anti-American's right to spew his hatred
and contempt for this country, but nobody seems to feel that none of this talk belongs on a transit BB in the first place. "
Well I've been trying to get Sherman off this topic by throwing in a subway related sentance about subways in China. If we do have to pick on the USA, it should be on transit related stuff.
This political talk should not get this involved on this BB unless it has to do with subways.
I'm not going to talk about this chinese political stuff anymore unless it has to do with subways. The wonderful thing about Subtalk is
that we can forgot about international politics. I did not bring up international politics, only about the rotten shape Flushing and it's transit is (Flushing Redbirds are in bad shape, Stengal Buses are dirty). Now lets get back to talking about subways!
Does anyone know if Hong Kong MTR subway cars have a front window?
"Its really something how everybody seems to be defending this anti-American's right to spew his hatred
and contempt for this country, but nobody seems to feel that none of this talk belongs on a transit BB in the first place. "
Well I've been trying to get Sherman off this topic by throwing in a subway related sentance about subways in China. If we do have to pick on the USA, it should be on transit related stuff.
This political talk should not get this involved on this BB unless it has to do with subways.
I'm not going to talk about this chinese political stuff anymore unless it has to do with subways. The wonderful thing about Subtalk is
that we can forgot about international politics. I did not bring up international politics, only about the rotten shape Flushing and it's transit is (Flushing Redbirds are in bad shape, Stengal Buses are dirty). Now lets get back to talking about subways!
Does anyone know if Hong Kong MTR subway cars have a front window?
I agree 100%. The talk about Flushing has everything to do with transit, even the part about the neighborhood and the people, but all this other international political garbage has absolutely nothing to do with transit. Like I said, I have no problems with any nationality, or even their political system. But I don't put up with anybody badmouthing the United States. I've even gotten ugly with foreigners abroad in chat rooms when they badmouth the United States on an American web site. They have some damn nerve doing this on American web sites. I don't go to foreign sites and badmouth their countries. Now, back to the trains. Do they have a transit system in Seoul, S. Korea?
Yes, there is one in Seoul. I don't know much about it, but there is one there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Do they have a transit system in Seoul, S. Korea?]
One of the world's busiest. In fact, as of a few years ago it had higher ridership than New York's.
One of the world's busiest. In fact, as of a few years ago it had higher ridership than New York's.
Well, I heard that Seoul's population is also higher than New York's.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Seoul is Pushing 8 million
I rode on Tokyo's subway, but I could never find out if it is all underground, or whether it has stretches as the New York Subway does where part of it is above ground. Paris' and London's is similar to New York in this regard. There! That's more like it, we're back on topic. Goodbye Sherm.
Some of the interurbans in Tokyo are above ground. The system is so large that it is confusing even to the Japaneese. They only know to ride the one to take them to home, work and family and shopping
Many of them are elevated in the outskirts. One special case, the Yamanote Line, is elevated throughout - even in downtown Tokyo.
Yes Seoul has a subway but I never rode it. Strange everyone hates the USA, but if they were given a chance to move here they would. The hate the USA, but buy anything American, or imitate(I am a piss poor speller) Just look at Japaneese Tourist in Hawaii and the West Coast. The first thing they look for is MADE IN THE USA
Brighton Beach Bob: That's because whether they like or not, they know we're No. 1 and the best.
The Front of the Hong Kong/Singapore (built by the same British Company) does nave a front window, but the cab is full widith, so the driver can go across to check the platforms like on Bart. The same with the Beijing Subway. The Kowloon Canton Railway also in Hong Kong wich is more likje a Commuter Line, does have a railfan window on the pre 1990 cars, The newcars I understand are one person operation. The older have a driver and guard(conductor) Hong Kong and Singapore are 1 person operations. All 3 systems are really clean, efficient and well kept.
Wonder how fast the MTR Hong Kong trains go. I have a feeling average speeds are alot higher on the Hong Kong and Singapore systems than here in NYC.
I've seen pictures of the trains, they are very nice. And also to point out that they have a front window (to look through the cab) and they do not cover it up like the NYCTA does in their R44,R46, R62's and R68's.
I'd just love to see what an HK MTR tunnel looks like. I wonder what kind of tunnel lighting they have and if they are all circular (deep bored) type.
Anyone who's railfanned in Hong Kong, Singapore, or China please share your experiences.
John, Both Singapore and Hong Kong were built by the same company and run the same equipment. Sometimes when I look at photos that i took, I can not tell the difference except by the logo on the out side. The doors between the cars on Singapore s MRT are open, so you can look straight thru from car 1 to 10 when they run that long of a train. As I stated before they are automated 1 person operations, so there may be a window in front(both systems) for rail fans, it is like riding Metro North, when you look in one window, then there is a few feet then the next window. The operator is on the right side, since most stations in Hong Kong are Island platforms, but some stations are on the side so the operator moves across. You usually can see out of the front since the trains are washed prior to coming into service. I do not know hao fast Singapore trains go because the stations are clse together, but I once asked a Hong Kong Operator and he said, that the trains hit about 100 Kilometers an hour as they go thru the transbay tubes, and they can go up to 140 KMH but for safty they dont. Stations in the City Area are close together so they do about 40kph between stations, but out in the burbs they do about 70kph. I have not ridden The Singapore train in about 10 years, but I was in HK 2 years ago and ran the train often. During rush hours, the headway was 90 seconds between trains. Since then they opened up a brand new l;ine from H>K> Island(Central) thru the channel, to Kowloon and on to the new Airport. They distance is 28 miles and with 3 stops, the scheduled time is 32 minutes.. There is a site somewhere on Singapore MRT
Wow 100kph in the transbay tubes. That is fast. I can't get my speed kicks as much as I used to on NYC subways thanks to GT's and WD's. As we enter the year 2000 the TA should associate modern with the word "speed".
60th street tube used to be fast but I think the 53rd street one is faster now. The dash on the 6th avenue express between 34th and W4th is still pretty good though.
LIRR aint nearly as fast as it used to be, at least lately that is. I remember when those LIRR trains really let it loose in the tunnels.
LIRR is still way faster than NYC subways though. Anybody know how fast the LIRR goes in the tunnels and where the fastest speeds on the LIRR are attained.
Back to HK though, I taped a music video off the Chinese music video show a few weeks ago, it was in a HK MTR station and trains were racing by.
I think it's a shame that HK and Singapore have such fast and clean rail transit, while USA has alot of slow and old transit systems. Then again, the systems in Asia were designed by Europe, where really fast trains came from.
Some NYCT subway trains can go fast, I have a feeling the R44s and R46's could do 80mph if the TA didn't mess with field shunting and put in all those damn GT's. Then again most subway tunnels and tracks are in such bad shape a train doing 80mph would most surely derail. Hence the TA's preference for Hippo trains (R68's). I fear the R142's are going to be even worse.
It would just be nice to see NYC subways get faster instead of slower. The MTA should just fix the tracks and tunnels so the trains could go faster. Since it's illegal to speed with the car, riding a fast train is the only "speed kick" I can get anymore.
I have a feeling off-peak and especially late at night LIRR trains roar through the East River tubes though. How much are they allowed to do in there?
Perhaps we oughtta have a top 10 fast trains list where we name the fastest stretches on the subway and LIRR, with #1 being the fastest. Anyone care to start? :-)
I think the in the tunnel between Jamaica and East NY the trains go pretty fast. I always try to see if I could see the old Woodhaven Station but always seem to miss it!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
My Transit Buff Page
my OUTRAGEOUS COLOR QUIZ
Remember the MRT in Singapore and Hong Kong are less then 20 years old, so the technology is newer then the NY Subways, They are a wider rail and car also. 100KPH seems fast but break it down into MPH.
There has to be one. Otherwise how would the motorman see where he's going?
There has to be one. Otherwise how would the motorman see where he's going?
I think he was talking about the railfan window.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Also another thing is that western media does not recognize chinese as
a media outlet. There's so much great chinese music out there, yet there aint one radio station that plays it. There's no real outlet for chinese people in NYC other than SCA stations (Chung Wah broadcast, Chinese-American Voice,etc). And the SCA stations sound horrible and have poor reception.
And there's always poor coverage of news in China and Taiwan by western media. The year 2000 "around the world" specials on TV were a good example of how the west can forget about China. They had an absolutely beautiful display in Shanghai and Beijing when the year 2000 came in China, yet China had the least coverage.
All the chinese TV programming chinese have is that one hour midnight show on ch.25.
Perhaps that's why these "Flushing kids" have forgotten who they are when they turn on the radio and hear there's no place for them, they listen to Hot 97 or 103.5.
Also NYC supresses the right of chinese to celebrate the Chinese New Year by not letting them shoot fireworks. This is a perfect example of how rich people and capitalists in the USA to abuse the rights of the people.
Also getting new subways built in China seems to be quite easy, whereas in the "good ol" USA it takes a lifetime.
[Also NYC supresses the right of chinese to celebrate the Chinese New Year by not letting them shoot fireworks. This is a perfect example of how rich people and capitalists in the USA to abuse the rights of the people.]
I have to disagree. Whatever their role in Chinese culture may be, the fact remains that fireworks are dangerous. Banning them is a smart safety move even if doing so puts a slight damper on some celebrations.
Even if you're good at mathematics, it's nice to be able to count to ten on your fingers :-)
>>>Also NYC supresses the right of chinese to celebrate the Chinese New Year by not letting them shoot
fireworks. This is a perfect example of how rich people and capitalists in the USA to abuse the rights of
the people. <<<
Fireworks create noise pollution and are dangerous. I applaud Giuliani's decision to crack down on them.
Wait a couple of years. The next mayor won't care and the streets will be noisy again on Chinese New Year and the 4th of July, and I'll be in my house with my double paned windows shut in 95 degree weather.
Well I remember how nice it was when our neighborhood lit up with fireworks on the 4th. Now it's boring and dull.
I'm not saying I support the use of illegal fireworks, but I think people should be allowed to shoot them off if they get the proper safety training on how to use them.
Today's it no fun, it's either watching them on TV or fighting the crowds at major displays. I miss the local displays, and I still think it's a violation of our freedom by not allowing legalized use of fireworks for the Chinese New Year. We're so uptight about everything as we enter the year 2000, we've forgot about having fun. A man can't "look at a woman" because it's sexual harrassment. Women don't dress sexy anymore since relationships are now more like business transactions.
The TA decides for safety reasons to take away railfan windows on the newer trains. We're entering a very complacent mentality these days about everything.
If the TA wants full width cabs then there should be a window so we could look out the cab window instead of covering it up. That's why I hate the R68's, the front window to the cab is covered and they are so slow it's no fun anymore. Unlike alot of people, I'm not looking forward to the R142's. I support "safety" when running trains and having fun, but the TA wants to take all the "fun" out of it with all the grade timers and speed restrictions. Trains should be fun, but with the dissapearance of railfan windows it's not going to be fun anymore.
I had so much fun the other day. I had an R32 N train going to Stillwell and because of track work we ran express on the northbound express track to Kings Highway. Then I took a D to Brighton and got a Q, with Slants as usual. Had a nice fast express run. The motorman honked at the D as he passed it after Kings Highway. The Brighton line was beautiful, as we zoomed down from the embankment to the open cut.
The view from the oversized window on the Slants were great.
Then we went into the tunnel, which looked deep bored with it's tube-like costruction. Then after Debalb you see the maze of tunnels and switches leading to the Manhattan bridge, then across the bridge and onto the 6th avenue line. Then I took a 7X back to Flushing, and the view from the front window was nice as we were doing close to 45mph after Woodside. But when the railfan window is gone, we won't see the signals, or the tunnels anymore. We won't feel the train make it's music as we roar through the Joralemon street tubes or the deep bored 4/5 express tubes beneath the 6 between 42nd and 125th.
By slowing the system down, and having new trains W/O railfan windows,
the TA is taking the fun out of subways. We must try to enjoy ourselves more in the next century instead of being such party poopers. Long live the railfan window!
Be normal!!
In my opinion not thinking before saying sth. belongs to a bar(before the fight).....
You sound like a God %%%%%$##%^$^% Communist to me-----which I'm afraid to say is not illegal in the United States. However, you're spouting anti-American diatribes rubs my buns the wrong way. There are no gates in this country and you can leave any time you want. But I would advise against slurring our country unless you are prepared to 1. Do the heavy work to make this country better, or
2. Get yourself saying those things to the wrong person and wind up looking like a bowl of spaghetti.
Hey Fred, having trouble reaching you please e mail me at my address Brighton Bob
Brighton Beach Bob: Haven't you gotten my replies? I thought they were getting through. I'll send out a message on the Internet and see if there is any SNAFU.
I did get a couple but like a idiot I forgot to save the address(yours)
Taiwan is NOT an indpendent nation, most people are Chinese and speak chinese and have strong ties with the mainland. This next century must see a return of Taiwan to China.
I want to see a strong China, united and independent from western domination.
The people of Taiwan beg to differ. They alone should decide their own future. Until 1973, most of the western world recognized Taiwan as the legitimate government of all China, and that mainland China was an occupied nation.
Yeah I was in Chinatown yesterday and I didn't have any trouble finding the chinese pop music I was looking for. Most Chinese stores in Flushing don't have a good selection of chinese pop music, even music from Taiwan. And they don't carry alot of mainland music at all in Flushing.
Chinatown on the otherhand has most of the old and new chinese pop music. Also Chinatown has better resteruants (I go for Cantonese food the most). Also there's more beautiful girls in Chinatown :-)
Chinatown is much busier than Flushing lately, even though the subway and bus access could be better.
I can't even find books to learn speaking chinese (mandarin) in Flushing, in Chinatown they got lots of books.
There's too many Koreans in Flushing, you're right they did steal alot of real estate from the chinese. I remember much more chinese stuff in Flushing a few years ago.
They never have anything about (mainland) China in Flushing either. I just pass through Flushing on my way home, I don't bother with it anymore. Chinatown is so much better. There should be a chinese music station on FM here in NYC though. I've gotten tapes of chinese radio stations from China they play alot of good chinese music with english music as well.
All we can hope for that somehow there's an "awakening" in chinese culture in Flushing. For now though, the poor shape of the Flushing redbirds can attest to what is happening there.
You better watch what your hoping for, The Chinese Parents whip some Chinese Culture into him, and they will ALL turn out like our impersonating friend. They rediscover their Chineseness, and look what happens, though our friend doesn't sound to me like a communist, he does sound like a National Socialist with Chinese Characteristics.
You better watch what your hoping for, The Chinese Parents whip some Chinese Culture into him, and they will ALL turn out like our impersonating friend. They rediscover their Chineseness, and look what happens, though our friend doesn't sound to me like a communist, he does sound like a National Socialist with Chinese Characteristics.
What you say about a Chinese American rediscovering his Chineseness makes alot of sense to me, but I disagree that your impostor sounds like a National Socialist. He seems to buy into everything that the Communist Beijing government is doing. Even though communism and national socialism are both tyrannical oppressive dictatorships, still, politically and idealogically, they are diametrically opposed. This man sounds like he would be an obedient Communist Party member that would fit very well in Beijing. I percieve a strong hatred for the United States, even though he claims to be born here, and a bond and love for his Motherland and the Beijing government. If I am wrong, shed some light on this for me so I can understand.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I know some Chinese from the mainland, and they usually have good things to say about Tibetans, perhaps to try to keep the Tibetans from feeling left out, they have begun to try to get closer to them.
Whats with "Savages"?, sounds like something a NSist would say. I detect a strong hint of Han pride, usually the normal ones are modest., Sounds like we have a Budding "Chinese" NSist., Look for any other signs like Jews (Destroying China), NWO, Black Helicopters, Damn Liberals etc. I have a feeling we're dealing with a nutcase.
Play with him, Play with his head for awhile, then expose his paranoia.
YOU ALL GOTTA BE KIDDING ME. WHAT IS THIS, UNITED NATIONS CHAT??? THIS IS SUB-TALK FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
I LIKE TO READ EACH POSTING, BUT ALL THIS "ASIAN CHAT" IS DRIVING ME NUTS!!! THERE IS MORE OF THIS TOPIC THAN THERE IS ABOUT THE R62 ON THE #2 AND THE R68 ON THE "C" THIS PAST NEW YEARS EVE.
THIS IS SUB-TALK, IF YOU WANT TO TALK ASIAN REALTIONS/CUSTOMS, TRY CHINK-CHAT.
Hello Greggypoo!, So hows the R Line? BTW. I'm going to get you for the Chink remark.
Greggypoo=Greg Campolo
Doesn t Campolo sound Italian, well there are many names in the books for them(Sorry SeaBeach Fred) Give Hime Hell
Real Sherman. That is what I am doing, have you read any of my questions to him that he has not answered. I have been in China Numerous times, and find it a beautiful and exotic country. My next goal is to ride from H.K to Beijing by train via Shanghi and other places, and see steam before it really goes.
CAN WE GET BACK TO TALKING TRAINS, PRETTY PLEASE....
CAN WE GET BACK TO TALKING TRAINS, PRETTY PLEASE....
Of course! Before you exit this post, please wait for the animation and the audio to load. Thanks.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Great, isn t that from a film of the first IRT in 1904, and how did you do that. I can t even make my Fonts Larger in writing
Great, isn t that from a film of the first IRT in 1904, and how did you do that. I can t even make my Fonts Larger in writing
Yes, but I believe the film was actually from 1905 (same difference). I have the complete movie (57 MB) on my hard drive. I took the movie into Adobe Premiere, which is digital video editing software and clipped everything off except 6 frames. I saved those 6 frames as bmp files. Then I made one layered graphic out of them in Adobe Photoshop. Then I brought the file into Adobe ImageReady and made an animated gif out of those 6 original frames. The file is quite small, only 72K. Each frame runs for 1/15 of a second, same speed as the original movie, and keeps recycling over and over. The audio clip is a wav file that I made from a recording that I made on a Lo-V fan trip back in 1975. As for my abilities on the Internet, I am a professional web designer with a formal education in Multimedia Technology. Do you like my Redbird animated gif? I drew the subway car from scratch in Adobe Illustrator, made a layered graphic out of the one car in Photoshop, then animated it in ImageReady. there was actually 3 separate images of the car. One with the doors open, another with the doors half-open, and the third with the doors closed.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Love it, but still way ahead of me. I am still a novice, and haven t figured out half the things on my computer, or even how to scan on my scanner.
Love it, but still way ahead of me. I am still a novice, and haven t figured out half the things on my computer, or even how to scan on my scanner.
Spend more time with your computer. You would be surprised at what you can learn. Its true, I went to school for multimedia, graphics design and web design, but everything else, I picked up on my own just by exploring, experimenting and doing, and also picking the brains of those more knowledgeable than I. I got into computers in 2/96. By 7/97, I built my first homebrew PC. In 3/99, I built my second homebrew PC, which I'm using. In another 6 months to a year, I'll do it again. I do all my own upgrades, troubleshoot all my own problems, and get very frustrated whenever I have to call tech help, because those airheads most always know less than me. I've learned that when I'm having a problem with my ISP, not to call tech help, as the problem is on their end, not mine 95% of the time, and it is just best to wait until they fix it on their end. As for your scanner, I'm sure it came with instructions. Just spend some time with it. You will get to know how to use it.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Mine did too, and it frustrates the ~!*&#@)&(*&^~(_!_(#&~!^@#^*&@!^(~*!@ out of me! It's an Epson 636U.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not only has Caldor's remained empty for months, so has Woolworths.
Roosevelt Avenue was torn up for three years so the MTA could install escalators to the Main St station. Because the MTA dragged their feet on the project, the area became a nightmare to negotiate. Lots of businesses lost customers, and it takes years to build up business again. In addition, the Union Street bridge was closed for repairs at the same time...during the Main Street subway construction! Add it all up and you have a picture of economic disaster.
Add to that: the Roosevelt/Main nexus, always overcrowded, has reached the saturation point. I don't know what anyone can do about this.
The LIRR station at Flushing Main Street is probably the worst configured station in the system. To go from one platform to the other (as passengers must often do, since the PW line runs on the opposite track a lot with all the construction) you have to descend to Main Street and fight your way through the crowds on a narrow sidewalk made narrower by the presence of pillars holding up the trestle.
Solution to that problem would be simple: Build an overpass connecting the platforms, as was done at Port Washington.
www.forgotten-ny.com of Flushing
[re economic decline of Flushing]
[Not only has Caldor's remained empty for months, so has Woolworths.
Roosevelt Avenue was torn up for three years so the MTA could install escalators to the Main St station. Because the MTA dragged their feet on the project, the area became a nightmare to negotiate. Lots of businesses lost customers, and it takes years to build up business again]
Right, I had forgotten about the Roosevelt Avenue debacle. It's bad enough that the MTA's staggering incompetence affects subway riders, but when it makes things miserable for an entire neighborhood, that's totally intolerable.
Regarding the empty Woolworth's, that may not be entirely attributable to Flushing's problems. A number of Woolworth sites remain vacant even in otherwise thriving areas. One example is on the south side of 14th Street between University Place and Fifth Avenue. It's part of the trendy Union Square 'hood, about the only properous part of otherwise-woebegone 14th Street. Yet the site lays empty.
You're right. There is a vacant Woolworth's building in the heart of the thriving business district in Lynbrook. There was talk of a Barnes & Noble opening up there, but to this day it that -- just talk.
BTW, on Fulton Street Mall the Woolworth's did not remain empty very long. There is a Foot Locker there (two floors), and the building still retains it's Woolworth's architecture. For those not in the know: Woolworth's Co. happens to own both Foot Locker/Lady Foot Locker and The Athelete's Foot sporting goods stores. Only their "Five & Dime" Woolworth stores were liquidated. So the Woolworth Co. is still very much in existance.
Doug aka BMTman
It's called the Venator Group now. The building, which they will still use will remain Woolworth. So will the Woolworth stores abroad.
The Parent company of Woolworth also owns Champs Sporting. BTW only Woolworth Stores in the USA and Canada Closed. Another company overseas bought the name of Woolworth and Woolworth Stores are alive and well as Close as Mexico, Europe and South America
Flushing is a poorly laid out area, the subway entrances are narrow and rise to streets. But the kids often loiter and congregate in front of these doorways, like by Burger King, making it sometimes impossible to get out.
The bus stops are all over the place, and signage as to where buses are is poor. They have not put the new bus stop signs in (those higher, bigger ones).
And while the 7 is a busy train, at night, the train empties out by the time it gets to Flushing.
The LIRR is arranged horribly, but then again, it's not suprising because that's how LIRR treats it's customers. That closed ticket booth looks real depressing too. And the Lippman plaza corridor between Roosevelt and the street in back of it is filled with pigeons and pigeon waste, garbage, and some peddlers. Flushing is worse than any area in Manhattan south of 60th street.
Yet, I've seen no mention of Flushing's problems in the press....and I WORK for the Flushing Times!
Until people start to squawk about it, the congestion will not be addressed. I think Flushingites...those that live near the area we're talking about...just shrug their shoulders and accept the mess.
The pizza/bakery by the southwest 7 train entrance on Roosevelt avenue
in Flushing has also closed.
Just another vacant spot to add to the list.
[BUT (and it's a BIG one), they have a Manhattan-mindset which is annoying to many of us native New Yorkers. The Yuppie & Buppy crowd has this idea that to be cool, hip, happenning (or whatever else is the term these days), you must frequent Manhattan restaurants, clubs, muesums and art galleries. It's as if there is nothing to do in Brooklyn or the other outer boroughs. That's the quality of Yuppies that I can live without. They only live in places like Williamsburg or Greenpoint because they can no longer afford to live in the East Village or Alphabet City (Bowery area).]
They're pretty much right! There are plenty of nice areas outside of Manhattan, and plenty of dismal ones *in* Manhattan, but different neighborhoods are vastly, well, different. Little Italy isn't Chinatown, Central Park West isn't Forest Hills. I live on the edge of the West Village now, having grown up on the Upper West Side and lived for many years on the East Side, and I love it--reasonable scale, cool old buildings, streets crowded with all sorts of amusing people, literally hundreds of stores within a few blocks' radius, half a block from the 6th, 7th, 8th Avenue subways and PATH--but I'm sure there are more than a few who wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood where women sometimes turn out to be men, and would want to live instead on the doorman-lined streets of the East Side that I found so stultifying.
Besides, let's face it, the Grand Concourse ain't exactly happening. People live places as much for like-minded neighbors as anything else. Nose rings don't go over big on Park Avenue (and I was going to say the opposite, but I do see lots of nannies here . . .)
We moved to Northside 8 years ago from Clinton Hill when I could no longer afford to pay over $500 for a studio apartment, and risk bodily harm when I needed to run to Myrtle for groceries. The G sucks if you need to get anywhere. I prefered to take the B54 (and imagined taking the el) to get downtown or a run into Lower Manhattan. Otherwise I drove, especially at night and weekends.
It is true that I find most of the hipster idiots that have moved here a bit pretentious, and make the Bedford stop a nightmare in the morning. Friends of mine who have marginal incomes, who don't have an uncle owning a building somewhere here have been forced to move further out on the line, say by Montrose.
The same thing happened to my family in Astoria. I used to
have a great three bedroom apartment directly under the
station at 30th Av. We paid a reasonable rent. You never
really had a problem finding parking and the train
ussually had seats in the morning. The in around 1992 or
93 the yuppies found out about Astoria.
Over night rents TRIPPLED. You had to wait 40 minutes to
find parking for your car and then 5 blocks away. The
schools became so over crowded that my daughter had
classes in the lunchroom and gymnasium. There was no
library in her school because it was used for classes.
The Astoria line became a nightmare as seats were no
longer availible and the line became crowded well after
midnight. The supermarkets were constantly overflowing
with people at all hours of the night. Sleep? Hardly
without wearing earplugs as the neighbors who were packed
ten to an apartment so they could afford the $2,000
monthly rent made noise all night long. They were mostly
Mexican immigrants who held night cleaning or day
resturaunt jobs. Hot bunking the limited number of beds
by alternating night and day jobs.
The yuppies who lived upstairs were constantly changing as
after two months they realized they could no longer afford
the $2,000, so they moved. Then a whole new set of a half
dozen yuppies would move in. Only in numbers could any of
them afford the astronomical rents.
So in 1998 after putting up with it for so long, my
landlord sold the building to a greedy developer. He
promtly doubled my rent. So we moved. Best thing we ever
did.
(Moved out of Astoria)
(Just curious) Where to, and why there?
Kew Gardens right by Jamaica yard. Jeff lives nearby as well as my favorite motor instructor. It's quiet and there's a good school. Plenty of parking, a playground for my kids and the neighbors are mostly families like my own.
Best move we ever made.
Eric, my experience is that yuppies tend to flood neighborhoods that either have a view of Manhattan (border the East River), or are within a 15-30 minutes subway commute from the Island of Overpriced Apartments. This of course applies to Astoria, Long Island City, Greenpoint, Williamsburg, DUMBO, Cobble Hill and Park Slope. These are the prime real estate areas of the past several years and are likely to remain so.
Doug aka BMTman
[the Island of Overpriced Apartments]
LOL!
Together, we saved about $750 a month on rent by moving to Wburg. The money we saved ended up buying the place we live in. Otherwize, we couldn't now afford (or wouldn't pay what they want now) to rent here.
BTW - when I moved, we told our friends that they could find our street from Kent Ave. by turning right at the steam engine (BEDT #16, which has since moved to a less exposed site).
I like the Canarsie line better than the G anyway.
Speaking of the G and raining stations, Metropolitan/Grand was infamous for its miles of drip pans sort-of-shielding the platforms from the constant rusty rain. I think they've since rebuilt the station, but I haven't been in there for over a year now, so I can't tell you if there has been an improvement. It was pretty nasty for years.
Here's something you might find interesting:
BEDT #16 was repainted and moved over to the Bush Terminal yard that is run by Cross Harbor RR (I am not sure when this happenned -- probably around 1996?). In Jan. of 1999 CHRR donated the engine to the Railroad Museum of Long Island in Riverhead (180 degree opposite of Brooklyn). Originally the transfer crew was hoping to move #16 out to Riverhead via the easy route of Bay Ridge to Jamaica and then the Green Port line out east. Unfortunately, they discovered that the steam engine would not clear the third rail at Jamaica. So, it was flatbedded out to Riverhead.
BEDT #16 holds the record for having been the last steam engine in active duty within city limits (it was running along the waterfront up to 1963).
Doug aka BMTman
I will save your post and use it for my Cross Harbor RR page in which I will use pictures I shot in January 1999 and in September when we did the Bklyn waterfront walk. Haven't got all my !@#t together for that page but look for it over the next few weeks. I got a good shot of #16 on my January walk.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The case of L overcrowding is a simple one that's been touched upon already. Firstly, there are those E. Village refugees who board west of Graham Avenue, and secondly, folks realized that during the Willie B closure the L (which is a line that runs itself) gets them to Manhattan reasonably fast, so they stayed. Now, ridership on the J/Z and M lines over the bridge has fallen sharply, while the L's continue to soar. A couple of trains will be taken off the J and M and will go to the L for the Fall pick. We'll see what happens then.
That's SO typical of the TA. Backwards. Instead of
reopening the Christye St. cut and sending bridge trains
up 6th Av, they add more to an already overcrowded line.
Leave the L alone. Add service from Jamaica. Keep the skip stop and make it a TRUE express from Eastern Pkwy to Myrtle then ESSEX skipping Marcy. Advertse the hell out of
the new service. Offer (God forbid!) a fare discount to
riders who use it. Incentive for people to try something
new. Any third rate advertising man knows that people are
loathe to try new things.
Or turn trains at Myrtle Av in the morning rush. Provide
some relief to those farther down the line. Maybe send
some Canarsie trains over the Williamsburg and up 6th. Use
innovation! God knows there aren't enough cars, and there
won't be for a while. So instead of pissing the public
off, or working the crews harder, use ingenuity!
That's the kind of forward thinking that keeps NJT and
other rail agencies so far ahead of the TA.
But since most of the idiots at operations planning on the
3rd floor at 130 Livingston AREN'T former operations
people, they can't understand that. These are the people
who have NO concept of what it's like to run a train for
an hour an a half and then have to turn around and get
right back on again. But they write the work programs!
Hello! Maybe the crew has to pee?! Someone explain to me
the logic of giving the F almost 4 extra minutes between
Stillwell Av. and Jay St? And then 3, just THREE minutes
between 34/6 and Rockerfeller Center? INCOMPETENT FOOLS!
No, patronizing little sycophants who'll do anything
underhanded to justify their jobs. One time I was there
and one of these people asked me a technical question
about the car capacity in the back at Parsons/E.She should
have known that. These are the people running the system.
So in order for some of these ignorant, paper pushing
blood suckers who out number conductors by almost two to
one to justify their jobs, they come up with this tripe.
Too little, too late. So typical TA.
Right ON The Transit Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46! The Broadway El's service really needs some improvements.
1) Speeding Up Trains Over The Williamburg Bridge will cut down the traveling time.
2) provide express service from Essex Street to Broadway East NY and then skip stop service will also improve service greatly.
3) Run J/Z lines on a 3 minute heyway instead of a four minute heyway.
4) Advertise this New Service all over the A, C, E and L lines.
I bet you, overcrowding on these lines will be reduce considerably.
Thanks The Transit Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46!
N Broadway Line
The plan does make sense. Which is why it will not happen. The Transit Authority in it's Machiavelian wisdom sees progress as detrimental.
If the crowding subsides, and the problems go away, what excuse will they use to get funding out of the Federal Govt. for untested signal systems and subway cars with superflous equipment?
The plan does make sense. Which is why it will not happen. The Transit Authority in it's Machiavelian wisdom sees progress as detrimental.
If the crowding subsides, and the problems go away, what excuse will they use to get funding out of the Federal Govt. for untested signal systems and subway cars with superflous equipment?
That's what you get with City-owned transit - political corruption. Bring back the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
But with prvate ownership things wouldn't change either. Competion would change things though, in public or private operation.
If the TA lost millions in revenue to a competitor like the BRT in the Eastern Div. to the IRT, THEN things would change. They'd have to or be driven under.
But with prvate ownership things wouldn't change either. Competion would change things though, in public or private operation.
If the TA lost millions in revenue to a competitor like the BRT in the Eastern Div. to the IRT, THEN things would change. They'd have to or be driven under.
That's the idea. Monopolies don't work. There's no incentive to please the public. The MTA is a monopoly.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Damn straight. All monopolies rip you off.
The public schools. The cable companies. Major league baseball (billion dollar taxpayer funded stadium or else!). Etc. Monopsonies (sole or principle buyers ) too. One reason many TA employees are so bitter -- they can't just go across the street, because the MTA accounts for most of the rail employment in the region. Your stuck.
The more I think about it, the more de-unification makes sense. State taxes pay for the tracks (Track and Structure department) just like they pay for state roads. Local taxes pay for the stations, which raise local property values. RTO, and the LIRR and MetroNorth equivalent have to break even or make money on the purchase, maintenance, and operation of the cars. And break up the subways into two or three competing operating units.
[The more I think about it, the more de-unification makes sense. State taxes pay for the tracks (Track and Structure department) just like they pay for state roads. Local taxes pay for the stations, which raise local property values. RTO, and the LIRR and MetroNorth equivalent have to break even or make money on the purchase, maintenance, and operation of the cars. And break up the subways into two or three competing operating units.]
I sense a consensus forming--others are saying the same thing. Now, how do we get them to do it? I'm perfectly serious. After sixty years of almost complete paralysis to point to and the failure to build a Second Avenue subway or improve conditions on the LIRR sticking in everybody's craws, with a general political climate that favors privatization, a mayor and governor who profess free market philosophies, and the pro-suburban slant of current policies alienating City democrats, would it be possible to push this as an actual agenda?
[But with prvate ownership things wouldn't change either. Competion would change things though, in public or private operation.
If the TA lost millions in revenue to a competitor like the BRT in the Eastern Div. to the IRT, THEN things would change. They'd have to or be driven under.]
I think private ownership would be a big improvement evem without competition. If nothing else, they'd have to make a profit, and that would mean attracting passengers and holding down costs in a way that doesn't discourage ridership.
Compare the performance of the Bell companies, regulated monopolies, to the European phone companies to see what I mean--the telco monopolies, as bad as they are, offer infinitely better service than the European postal services.
Overall, it seems tome that regulated monopolies are somewhere between government and competitive businesses as far as efficiency and quality of service are concerned.
But I agree that the ideal scenario would recreate a competitive market, as in the days of the IRT/BMT--except that with modern technology, it wouldn't be necessary to have two fares, since revenues could be apportioned between competitors on the basis of actual travel patterns.
The fare system would be no problem -- just have a financial institution issue a transit debit/credit card and the competing companies (Bus, taxi, subway, ferry, whatever) would honor it. Sales,contests and other promotions which are fixtures of private sector competition would be easily accomodated. Hmmm, Maybe I should put together a business plan
" That's what you get with City-owned transit - political corruption. Bring back the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company."
More likely the IRT since they use different equipment.
N Broadway Line
" That's what you get with City-owned transit - political corruption. Bring back the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company."
More likely the IRT since they use different equipment.
N Broadway Line
Bring back the Interborough Rapid Transit Company also. Turn the IND over to John Rocker and call it the Tomahawk Chop Rapid Transit company.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[If the crowding subsides, and the problems go away, what excuse will they use to get funding out of the Federal Govt. for untested signal systems and subway cars with superflous equipment?]
Can't say I agree with you on that one. While the MTA is paying Tweed Courthouse prices for the CBTC installation (and believing it's getting a bargain), it's definitely the future of train operation, and could potentially result in extraordinary service improvements and economies.
There are several aspects to NYCT's procurement of CBTC that should raise red flags.
The present signal system was designed to handle 90 second headways. The "L" has 180 second headways. The effective headway on the "L" is limited by the track configuration at 8th Ave. This limits it to 120 second headways. This is also the best that CBTC will bring. So, there is no theoretical benefit to the investment on the 14th St Line. What you need is more trains and a willingness to run them.
The CBTC system has a system wide deployment schedule of 50 years. They are being phased in from the outer branches into the center. The trunk lines is where you need any increased capacity that CBTC will bring. Do you think it is possible that the technology will become obsolete within the next 50 years? NYCT has already taken steps in the procurement to guarantee that it will.
Ah. Thank you very much for articulating my point for me in a very informed manner.
The TA could have achieved the same results using existing cab signal technology, and done it much cheaper. But as I said the answer is not trying to squeze 10 Lbs into a 5 Lb bag. It's in finding ALTERNATIVES. Like those I already outlined. This way the 10 Lbs goes into TWO 5Lb bags.
[Ah. Thank you very much for articulating my point for me in a very informed manner.
The TA could have achieved the same results using existing cab signal technology, and done it much cheaper. But as I said the answer is not trying to squeze 10 Lbs into a 5 Lb bag. It's in finding ALTERNATIVES. Like those I already outlined. This way the 10 Lbs goes into TWO 5Lb bags.]
CBTC isn't any more expensive than existing cab signalling technology. In fact, it's dirt cheap. The aerospace companies are waving their hands and charging a lot because it *sounds* new and fancy, but there's no significant new technology involved--the high reliabilty computers and networks are trivial customizations of off the shelf stuff, the robust software needed to run individual trains and lines is elementary, and the spread spectrum wayside transmitters are just modifications of devices that have already been developed for military and commercial applications.
The savings comes from NOT losing time in R&D for the new technology's unavoidable teething pains. And the inevitable troubles and hidden costs that the TA and ultimately the riders will have to bear.
It's not just me that feels this way. Mr. Train Control, a signal system design engineer for over twenty years and frequent SubTalk poster feels the same as I do.
[The savings comes from NOT losing time in R&D for the new technology's unavoidable teething pains. And the inevitable troubles and hidden costs that the TA and ultimately the riders will have to bear.
It's not just me that feels this way. Mr. Train Control, a signal system design engineer for over twenty years and frequent SubTalk poster feels the same as I do.]
There's an old saying in my own area, which is that you never buy serial number one.
The TA should neither be underwriting R&D, nor should it be a test bed for anything that it doesn't get a *great* deal on. That's pretty standard for a beta site.
So if it's a question of unproven vs. proven technology, I can't argue with you.
But the design and testing cycle on something like this is only a few years; in spite of what people have been saying, the technology isn't particularly sophisticated. If it's not ready, why not wait a very generous five years until it is? It makes no sense to go with a system that's obsolete.
I would NOT call cab signalling obsolete. Rule 410 type systems without wayside automatic signals are probably the most advanced there are today when you consider CBTC still doesn't exist as an installed system yet.
[I would NOT call cab signalling obsolete. Rule 410 type systems without wayside automatic signals are probably the most advanced there are today when you consider CBTC still doesn't exist as an installed system yet.]
My mistake, I should have said obsolescent. My point is that when you're making a major long-term capital investment of this sort, it's best to go with the best that technology has to offer, even if that means waiting a couple of years for the technology to prove itself in service. It seems to me that CBTC will remain current for some years to come.
It's not just a matter of moving from 45 to 55 tph, but the potential over the--50 year?--life of the system to introduce innovative new services such as operatorless trains and zoned cars.
[The CBTC system has a system wide deployment schedule of 50 years.]
Any executive in private industry who proposed a 50-year deployment schedule for a vital capital improvement would be re-engineered on the spot.
[Any executive in private industry who proposed a 50-year deployment schedule for a vital capital improvement would be
re-engineered on the spot. ]
Are you laboring under the assumption that the CBTC is a "vital" capital improvement?
[Are you laboring under the assumption that the CBTC is a "vital" capital improvement?]
CBTC would really fly in several areas. For one thing, if the trains were equipped with track brakes, a cross-river tunnel could handle several lines with no significant slowdown, and with track brakes throughput on everything could be increased to the point where it would be little more than the longest dwell time. It saves big time on labor. And the signal system has to be replaced, anyway; hardly makes sense to replace it with yesterday's technology.
CBTC by itself increases capacity by decreasing reaction time and the time required to change the signal aspects. That translates to a 5% gain at best.
Track brakes could increase the emergency braking rate to 7 mph/sec. However, they require third rail power in order to function. Consider a power failure scenerio - like 1965 or 1980. No lights, no power and no brakes. I believe the possibility of such scenerios makes it imprudent to set minimum intervals on the basis of track brake performance. They are very useful for safety in most environments and should be incorporated into new equipment. They've been around more than 60 years.
The question is one of wayside versus cab signalling. The signal components should be replaced by cheaper and more reliable semiconductor replacements on a maintenance basis. I am not advocating retaining relics.
However, the benefits for CBTC and better acceleration/braking rates come from raising the theoretical capacity from 45 to about 55 trains per hour. I do not think they are vital to increasing the present performance from 20 - 25 trains per hour to its previous performance of 30 - 35 trains per hour.
[CBTC by itself increases capacity by decreasing reaction time and the time required to change the signal aspects. That translates to a 5% gain at best.
Track brakes could increase the emergency braking rate to 7 mph/sec. However, they require third rail power in order to function. Consider a power failure scenerio - like 1965 or 1980. No lights, no power and no brakes. I believe the possibility of such scenerios makes it imprudent to set minimum intervals on the basis of track brake performance. They are very useful for safety in most environments and should be incorporated into new equipment. They've been around more than 60 years.
The question is one of wayside versus cab signalling. The signal components should be replaced by cheaper and more reliable semiconductor replacements on a maintenance basis. I am not advocating retaining relics.]
I assume that the 5% increase you're talking about compares CBTC to in-cab signalling. There's certainly a much smaller improvement in throughput if you're comparing it with cab signals, rather than the current obsolete block system. But if you're going to the expense of replacing the wayside signals, why not put in the more efficient and (if properly designed) safer CBTC instead?
The track brake power failure issue is an interesting one; collisions under those circumstances are certainly unacceptable. I don't know for sure whether it would be economical to store enough power to operate the track brakes under those conditions.
[However, the benefits for CBTC and better acceleration/braking rates come from raising the theoretical capacity from 45 to about 55 trains per hour. I do not think they are vital to increasing the present performance from 20 - 25 trains per hour to its previous performance of 30 - 35 trains per hour.]
Hard to say. From what I understand, the decrease in throughput in NYC is related to regulatory changes and crippled brakes more than anything else. But if your goal is simply to restore throughput to 30 trains/hour, CBTC is definitely overkill. If, on the other hand, you want that 55 tph capacity, whether to reduce overcrowding without lengthening the trains or make more efficient use of expensive resources like river tunnels, it seems to me that CBTC is the way to go. And if you look at the options it provides in the future--that super low headway operation (I'm assuming there's a solution to the power failure problem), zoned cars, unattended operation with economical near-peak service during off hours, automated rerouting, etc.--it just doesn't make sense to me to stick with cab signals.
The 5% gain is for CBTC vs. the "current obsolete block system" given that they use equipment with the same operating characteristics. That is to say 2-3 trains/hour.
The dependence on the availability of third rail power makes track brakes inappropriate as the source for primary or secondary braking. The cost for providing a reliable source of power is prohibitive.
There is another operational problem. 7 mph/sec or almost 1/4 g is excessive for standees - in all but dire emergency situations. 3 or 4 would be a better design criterion. This further diminishes the requirement for track brakes.
Now even given the abysmal acceleration/braking characteristics of the NYCT fleet - the capacity is around 47 tph. So, they should be able to run 30 - 35 without any major changes. This represents a 25 - 33% improvement over present performance. I consider this more than a modest improvement. Yes, CBTC is overkill.
[The 5% gain is for CBTC vs. the "current obsolete block system" given that they use equipment with the same operating characteristics. That is to say 2-3 trains/hour.
The dependence on the availability of third rail power makes track brakes inappropriate as the source for primary or secondary braking. The cost for providing a reliable source of power is prohibitive.
There is another operational problem. 7 mph/sec or almost 1/4 g is excessive for standees - in all but dire emergency situations. 3 or 4 would be a better design criterion. This further diminishes the requirement for track brakes.
Now even given the abysmal acceleration/braking characteristics of the NYCT fleet - the capacity is around 47 tph. So, they should be able to run 30 - 35 without any major changes. This represents a 25 - 33% improvement over present performance. I consider this more than a modest improvement. Yes, CBTC is overkill.]
Unless you assume that it will one day give us operatorless operation and zoning. And since it costs no more than older systems, why not take advantage of the improvement in reaction time?
Besides which, I'm not sure that the track brake power problem is insoluble. If the track brakes are used only for hard, emergency stops, why not use dynamic braking to slow trains synchronously after a power failure? The probability that track brakes would be needed at the same time as the power went out is small; the scenarios I can think that might lead to such a situation, such as a major collision or an earthquake, would pretty much render track brakes moot anyway.
Unless you assume that it will one day give us operatorless operation and zoning. And since it costs no more than older systems, why not take advantage of the improvement in reaction time?
The problem is compatibility with existing equipment. You have a big problem, if you do not have a method to retrofit existing rolling stock to use CAB or CBTC technology. NYCT's implemention plan does not include retrofit and therefore there is a 50 year deployment. Of course, NYCT has discovered a means to make CAB technology prohibitively expensive, so your "costs no more" premise is questionable.
The only real advavantage for CBTC might be ATO. However, this is was not mentioned in your previous posts. You had mentioned increased performance, which I feel is at best marginal.
There are many reasons for a sudden lack of third rail power. I gave you an example of two system wide failures. However, local short circuits and feeder cable failures happen all the time. So instead of 100 collisions you would have only 1 or 2, if you scheduled trains on track braking characteristics.
The probability that track brakes would be needed at the same time as the power went out is small; the scenarios I can think that might lead to such a situation, such as a major collision or an earthquake..
The local equivalent is a water main break.
You must evaluate a lot of contingencies with life at stake. Murphy's Law definitely applies. Multiple simultaneous failures must be accounted for. This also will drive up the cost for automatic operation.
[The problem is compatibility with existing equipment. You have a big problem, if you do not have a method to retrofit existing rolling stock to use CAB or CBTC technology. NYCT's implemention plan does not include retrofit and therefore there is a 50 year deployment. Of course, NYCT has discovered a means to make CAB technology prohibitively expensive, so your "costs no more" premise is questionable.]
That's a failure on the MTA's part--CBTC should include provisions to control existing stock.
[The only real advavantage for CBTC might be ATO. However, this is was not mentioned in your previous posts. You had mentioned increased performance, which I feel is at best marginal.
There are many reasons for a sudden lack of third rail power. I gave you an example of two system wide failures. However, local short circuits and feeder cable failures happen all the time. So instead of 100 collisions you would have only 1 or 2, if you scheduled trains on track braking characteristics.]
But I wouldn't. The track brakes would be used only in the event of an imminent collisions. Under normal conditions, regenerative braking would be sufficient to slow the trains synchronously.
[The local equivalent is a water main break.]
Should be covered under the paragraph above.
[You must evaluate a lot of contingencies with life at stake. Murphy's Law definitely applies. Multiple simultaneous failures must be accounted for. This also will drive up the cost for automatic operation.]
True--at the same time, I think you have to take a hard headed look at real statistics. You could design a plane with an automatic parachute for every passenger, and it would be marginally safer than what we have today, but it wouldn't be economical. Someone posted here once saying that his father had been called upon periodically to assess the possiblity of automated highway systems, and that each time he wrote a report showing that the system couldn't deal with certain failure modes such as flat tires. But the right comparison to make is whether the automated system results in a net increase in safety compared to the manual one.
The only clear advantage CBTC offers is ATO. There are only marginal benefits for capacity, speed and safety - at best. What would be the potential cost savings from ATO?
There are 2000 to 3000 conductors and train operators. At $50K per year that comes to $150 million per year - tops. The present worth of an $150 million annuity is $1.5 to $3.0 billion at 10% or 5% interest, respectively. The cost for retrofitting the 14th St line alone for CAB signals is $700 million - excluding rolling stock. It is rather likely that retrofitting the entire system will greatly exceed the $3.0 billion figure. Any significant OPTO implementation would make recapturing the initial investment even less likely.
[The only clear advantage CBTC offers is ATO. There are only marginal benefits for capacity, speed and safety - at best. What would be the potential cost savings from ATO?
There are 2000 to 3000 conductors and train operators. At $50K per year that comes to $150 million per year - tops. The present worth of an $150 million annuity is $1.5 to $3.0 billion at 10% or 5% interest, respectively. The cost for retrofitting the 14th St line alone for CAB signals is $700 million - excluding rolling stock. It is rather likely that retrofitting the entire system will greatly exceed the $3.0 billion figure. Any significant OPTO implementation would make recapturing the initial investment even less likely.]
But those figures are quite literally insane, even at government prices. Some high rel computers, a redundant network, spread spectrum transponders, interfaces--this stuff really does not cost that much.
But those figures are quite literally insane, even at government prices. Some high rel computers, a redundant network, spread
spectrum transponders, interfaces--this stuff really does not cost that much.
Have you ever designed equipment to the National Electrical Code? Have you placed equipment into a NEMA enclosure? Industrial grade equipment is an order of magnitude more expensive than consumer grade - especially if you require all electronics to have an industrial grade temperature operating range. Please remember, all the equipment must be installed onsite by hand. Many skilled electricians. Local 3 will insist on it.
However, go back and do some reverse engineering. We already know that the maximum labor savings is $150 million annually. Do you want a 5 year payout at 5%? This means a present worth of approximately $650 million - that's your budget for the entire system. The 14th St line has 21 track miles - the entire system is 656 track miles (excluding yards). This means that the 14th St component for CAB signals must be
$650 x 21 / 656 = $20.8 million for a 5 year payout.
That's less than cost of a train of R142's. No matter how you slice it, you will have a very difficult time justifying any cost savings - even if you buy the electronics in China and get welfare workers to do the labor.
Stephen, you and I both get it. Josh brings a knowledge of
the hardware involved, but I don't think he realizes the
Byzantine process by which this system functions. The
Local 3 issues aside, there are over 3,000 conductors and
around 3,200 motormen. So you can use those figures for
the cost benefit analysis. Not to mention that it's
impossible to have a full 8 hour day when this will be
installed. As a flagger I see this on a daily basis.
During the day work can only be performed between 10 and
2. At night 9 or 10 untill 5. Nights are ideally suited but then the cost goes up further due to the extra pay the electricians get for night work. So there is no fast or
cheap way to do this. CBTC may have some small benefits to
it, but the costs involved far outweigh them. Modern
cab signal systems can be installed conjunctve with the
existing wayside signals for many of the same benefits and
far cheaper and in my opinion with much less of the
"teething" pains that come with new technology. I believe
we should not jump into new technology simply for
technology's sake. An old adage for engineers and mechanics alike: keep it simple stupid. And the ever relevant: if it's not broken, don't fix it.
In reality the political motivations, union busting,
engineers justifying their jobs, the prestige of new
technology in an old system, etc. are what's a lot of the
driving force behind this.
Ask this: if it's so wonderful and cost benificial, why
aren't the nation's leading railroads, at the forefront of rail technology doing this to reduce their costs, and
increase their efficiency? Where's Wisconsin Central? Or
Norfolk Southern? BNSF? These coroporations LOVE new
technology that reduces costs and increases efficiency. Why aren't they doing this? Historically the Transit Authority has always been VERY far behnd on the technolgy curve. Why now all of a sudden?
Because there's something dubious here, and the profit
making corporations don't see the advantage in spending
this type of capital to save just a few bucks. But a
public agency who's funding comes from a seperate budget
other than the operating budget can afford this type of
folly.
And the ever relevant: if it's not broken, don't fix it.
The adage that I heard was: "if it works it's not sophisticated," when I started my first engineering job 37 years ago. I believe that blind rejection of new technology is as dangerous as its blind acceptance. The present worth of any capital expenditure was required for its justification for most of my career.
there are over 3,000 conductors and around 3,200 motormen.
This is more than double the figure that I had used. This raises their cost to $310 million annually, the 5 year payout present worth to 1.34 billion and cost for the 14th St line to 43 million. That's still a lot less than present CBTC systems. I will advocate a CBTC system, when the technologists match that figure. I am not a Luddite.
One interesting sidelight. Embracing OPTO will reduce these number to what I stated. This will make it much more difficult to justify CBTC economically.
In reality the political motivations, union busting, engineers justifying their jobs, the prestige of new technology in an old system, etc. are what's a lot of the driving force behind this.
I have a slightly different spin. Management will excuse their poor performance by citing the lack of a new or latest technology. The embarassment for NYCT is that was better system performance 50 and 80 years ago, when there was even less technology.
why aren't the nation's leading railroads, at the forefront of rail technology...
I'm believe that's an oxymoron. No railroad is in the forefront of technology. The best are 10 years behind, others 20 and some 50 years behind in technology. Some are better at using 20 year old technology than others - that is what differentiates them.
I like your take on things. BTW the TA spends about 80% of the operating budget on salaries. I may be wrong. If anyone knows the correct figure please join in.
[I like your take on things. BTW the TA spends about 80% of the operating budget on salaries. I may be wrong. If anyone knows the correct figure please join in.]
These figures are from 1997, and they don't break out the expenses sufficiently, but they're the best I have. I'd be delighted to see some better ones.
I think it's fairly clear, though, that labor is the predominant expense.
Bus Heavy Rail
Operating Expense $1,079,992,881 $1,855,109,898
Capital Funding $132,254,215 $1,249,736,344
Annual Passenger Miles 1,376,040,033 7,101,711,964
Annual Vehicle Revenue Miles 86,844,383 304,094,411
Annual Unlinked Trips 635,046,592 1,579,782,509
Average Weekday Unlinked Trips 2,056,140 5,318,807
Annual Vehicle Revenue Hours 11,279,755 16,685,311
Fixed Guideway Directional Route Miles 39.4 492.9
Total Fleet 3867 5790
Average Fleet Age in Years 7.9 24.5
Performance Measures
Service Efficiency
Operating Expense/Vehicle Revenue Mile $12.44 $6.10
Operating Expense/Vehicle Revenue Hour $95.75 $111.18
Cost Effectiveness
Operating Expense/Passenger Mile $0.78 $0.26
Operating Expense/Unlinked Passenger Trip $1.70 $1.17
Service Effectiveness
Unlinked Passenger Trips/Vehicle Revenue Mile 7.31 5.20
------------
Financial Information
Sources of Operating Funds Expended
Passenger Fares $2,038,334,490
Local Funds 386,459,200
State Funds 565,713,955
Federal Assistance 24,805,132
Other Funds 86,443,903
Total Operating Funds Expended $3,101,756,680
Summary of Operating Expenses
Salaries/Wages/Benefits $2,811,254,645
Materials & Supplies 233,844,397
Purchased Transportation 13,553,133
Other Operating Expenses (109,996,263)
Total Operating Expenses $2,948,655,912
Reconciling Cash Expenditures $135,078,392
Sources of Capital Funds Expended
Local Funds $681,588,796
State Funds 0
Federal Assistance 700,401,763
Total Capital Funds Expended $1,381,990,559
[Stephen, you and I both get it. Josh brings a knowledge of
the hardware involved, but I don't think he realizes the
Byzantine process by which this system functions. The
Local 3 issues aside, there are over 3,000 conductors and
around 3,200 motormen. So you can use those figures for
the cost benefit analysis. Not to mention that it's
impossible to have a full 8 hour day when this will be
installed. As a flagger I see this on a daily basis.
During the day work can only be performed between 10 and
2. At night 9 or 10 untill 5. Nights are ideally suited but then the cost goes up further due to the extra pay the electricians get for night work. So there is no fast or
cheap way to do this. CBTC may have some small benefits to
it, but the costs involved far outweigh them. Modern
cab signal systems can be installed conjunctve with the
existing wayside signals for many of the same benefits and
far cheaper and in my opinion with much less of the
"teething" pains that come with new technology. I believe
we should not jump into new technology simply for
technology's sake. An old adage for engineers and mechanics alike: keep it simple stupid. And the ever relevant: if it's not broken, don't fix it.
In reality the political motivations, union busting,
engineers justifying their jobs, the prestige of new
technology in an old system, etc. are what's a lot of the
driving force behind this.
Ask this: if it's so wonderful and cost benificial, why
aren't the nation's leading railroads, at the forefront of rail technology doing this to reduce their costs, and
increase their efficiency? Where's Wisconsin Central? Or
Norfolk Southern? BNSF? These coroporations LOVE new
technology that reduces costs and increases efficiency. Why aren't they doing this? Historically the Transit Authority has always been VERY far behnd on the technolgy curve. Why now all of a sudden?
Because there's something dubious here, and the profit
making corporations don't see the advantage in spending
this type of capital to save just a few bucks. But a
public agency who's funding comes from a seperate budget
other than the operating budget can afford this type of
folly.]
Seems to me the economics are very different for a high density, relatively labor intensive system like the subway.
You're right about my being unfamiliar with the byzantine labor system. But by the same token, I think it's possible for someone *within* a system to be trapped in the system for so long that they forget that something is massively wrong. When I see figures of $3 billion dollars for something that should cost a fraction of that, I cringe. Nobody can afford that magnitude of waste, and so nothing much gets built.
[Have you ever designed equipment to the National Electrical Code? Have you placed equipment into a NEMA enclosure? Industrial grade equipment is an order of magnitude more expensive than consumer grade - especially if you require all electronics to have an industrial grade temperature operating range. Please remember, all the equipment must be installed onsite by hand. Many skilled electricians. Local 3 will insist on it.]
Actually, everything I've ever designed and manufactured was industrial grade or higher, as is most of what I work with, so I've an excellent idea of what the costs are.
For anything under 120 Volts or so (and sometimes for that 120 Volts), Local 3 is a running joke. One post production video facility I know of paid the Local 3 guys to run fake wires during the day, and brought in a contractor to do the real wiring work at night. If Local 3 is going to install fiber optic networks and spread spectrum transponders, the whole thing will indeed be ludicrously expensive, because they don't know how to do it. Besides which, if the system is designed to use custom lengths of optical fiber in conduit bolted into steel, well, we'll get what we deserve.
[However, go back and do some reverse engineering. We already know that the maximum labor savings is $150 million annually. Do you want a 5 year payout at 5%? This means a present worth of approximately $650 million - that's your budget for the entire system.
The 14th St line has 21 track miles - the entire system is 656 track miles (excluding yards). This means that the 14th St component for CAB signals must be
$650 x 21 / 656 = $20.8 million for a 5 year payout.
That's less than cost of a train of R142's. No matter how you slice it, you will have a very difficult time justifying any cost savings - even if you buy the electronics in China and get welfare workers to do the labor.]
I wouldn't expect a five year payout with an investment of this magnitude; after all, the current system has been in place for up to 100 years.
My off-the-cuff estimate of what it would cost a private business to put CBTC in the Canarsie line suggests a total cost of about $50,000,000. $30,000,000 for parts and hardware, hardware and software design and testing $20,000,000, but some of this is R&D and should be eaten by the manufacturer who will be bidding on other lines in the system so let's say $10,000,000 (cf. the somewhat smaller BART CBTC initial design and testing project, which comes to about $50,000,000 at government prices), the other $20,000,000 for reasonably efficient installation--from what you say, that seems to be the real sticking point, courtesy of Local 3. Except where it has to interface with existing switches, this stuff should really snap on and snap together, making labor costs negligible, but they'll turn it into a screwdriver frenzy.
Local 3 and bloated aerospace prices aside, it looks like a good deal to me.
I had a similar experience with Local 3 with a computer center installation some 30 years ago. The only difference was that I could not use another contractor at night because building management would not permit it. I had to set up the ground planes and signal wiring at night.
I wouldn't expect a five year payout with an investment of this magnitude; after all, the current system has been in place for up to 100 years.
Any piece of computer related equipment will be obsolete within five years. Moreover the new equipment will be better from every objective performance criteria and be much cheaper. The only prudent strategy is to get your investment out as fast as possible. After all one should not issue a 50 year mortgage for a building that will be worthless in 25 years.
the somewhat smaller BART CBTC initial design and testing project, which comes to about $50,000,000 at government prices
One would assume based on the nature of the technology that its cost varies linearly with the distance covered. The transbay tunnel is 8 track miles long. The 14th St Line is 20.6 track miles long. Thus, equivalent cost reflected to the larger 14th St Line project should be on the order of $130 million.
From the FTA National Transit Library:
"The ultimate objective is to increase the number of trains that can be operated through BART's Transbay Tube which connects Oakland and San Francisco from the current 16 trains per hour to a minimum of 30 trains per hour"
That certainly is a case of decreased expectations. The present system 75 year old system on the 14th St Line can handle 40 trains per hour.
From the FTA National Transit Library:
The AATC system is based on the U.S. Army's Enhanced Position Location Reporting System (EPLRS) developed by Hughes Aircraft for locating and communicating with military units in the battlefield. ... The position of trains will be determined by measuring the RF propogation time between multiple transmitters and receivers.
By sheer coincidence, my master's thesis concerned radio positioning technology. My considered professional opinion for taking this battlefield technology and trying to use it in close confined tunnels with tight curves and possible RF relections is: lot's a luck charlie!!!
I had raised my 5 year payout estimate to $43 million based on better personnel figures that another poster supplied. Using your own numbers, you've blown the budget by $87 million. Moreover, you are coming up with 25% less capacity. What exactly was your criticism with TA management?
[Any piece of computer related equipment will be obsolete within five years. Moreover the new equipment will be better from every objective performance criteria and be much cheaper. The only prudent strategy is to get your investment out as fast as possible. After all one should not issue a 50 year mortgage for a building that will be worthless in 25 years.]
Just because it will be obsolete doesn't mean it won't keep doing the job, which in this case isn't that sophisticated. You don't replace the computers on your car after five years--you just keep using it until it dies. The economics of a railroad are different because of the high cost of the assets, but I'd say that a well designed CBTC system should be expected do what it was designed to do with easy incremental upgrades for at least 25 years.
[One would assume based on the nature of the technology that its cost varies linearly with the distance covered. The transbay tunnel is 8 track miles long. The 14th St Line is 20.6 track miles long. Thus, equivalent cost reflected to the larger 14th St Line project should be on the order of $130 million.
From the FTA National Transit Library:
"The ultimate objective is to increase the number of trains that can be operated through BART's Transbay Tube which connects Oakland and San Francisco from the current 16 trains per hour to a minimum of 30 trains per hour"
That certainly is a case of decreased expectations. The present system 75 year old system on the 14th St Line can handle 40 trains per hour.
From the FTA National Transit Library:
The AATC system is based on the U.S. Army's Enhanced Position Location Reporting System (EPLRS) developed by Hughes Aircraft for locating and communicating with military units in the battlefield. ... The position of trains will be determined by measuring the RF propogation time between multiple transmitters and receivers.
By sheer coincidence, my master's thesis concerned radio positioning technology. My considered professional opinion for taking this battlefield technology and trying to use it in close confined tunnels with tight curves and possible RF relections is: lot's a luck charlie!!!
I had raised my 5 year payout estimate to $43 million based on better personnel figures that another poster supplied. Using your own numbers, you've blown the budget by $87 million. Moreover, you are coming up with 25% less capacity. What exactly was your criticism with TA management?]
The figures I gave for the BART project are for preliminary design and testing, not for final construction; I used them only to confirm my own estimate of the preliminary design and testing costs for the Canarsie line. The BART figures have nothing to do with construction costs, and I wasn't suggesting adapting military ranging technology to the L (I have the same questions you do about reflections and propogation in the tunnels)--for reasons of precision, economy, and safety, I'd be inclined to rely primarily on optical detection with beacons/tach pulses as a backup. For that matter, I'm not convinced that spread spectrum transponders are the most economical or reliable means to achieve communications--a wide bandwidth zoned optical system might make more sense, with lower bandwidth RF communications serving as a backup in case of smoke or extreme weather conditions. Still, I've based my estimate on the RF solution, since it seems to be the conventional one.
As for BART's tunnel capacity figures, I have no idea where they're getting them; the only limitations on tunnel capacity in a properly designed CBTC system are the speed at which the trains can move and stop. Once again, it has no bearing on my point, which is that it should cost about $20 million to design the sytem, $20 million to install it, and $20 million to buy the components, with $10 million of the design cost spread over multiple projects, for a net cost of $50 million. Actually, on the basis of the labor figures you give, it strikes me as a no-brainer. As you point out elsewhere OPTO could produce some of the same savings with little investment, but I'd do both.
I think you're also overlooking the fact that signals have to be replaced anyway. The real question should be whether the difference in cost between CBTC is so much greater than the cost of cab signals that it isn't made up for by the labor reduction over the working life of the system, and I don't see any evidence that it is.
[Just because it will be obsolete doesn't mean it won't keep doing the job, which in this case isn't that sophisticated. You don't replace the computers on your car after five years--you just keep using it until it dies. The economics of a railroad are different because of the high cost of the assets, but I'd say that a well designed CBTC system should be expected do what it was designed to do with easy incremental upgrades for at least 25 years.
If you keep using it until it dies (or 25 years whichever comes last) then there is very little reason to replace the existing signal equipment. We've agreed that the marginal performance improvements are probably not necessary. We've agreed that OPTO savings would be equvalent to automatic train operation. You've contradicted yourself, if you want to cost justify the new signal system by keeping it until it breaks.
The reason for change is that the old equipment is too expensive to maintain because parts can no longer be obtained. The same thing will happen to today's technology. Go back 25 years. I require a replacement for an 8080 multibus card or some DEC R series logic. Maybe I used a PDP-8. Find me a link tape or an ASR-33? Program maintenance? It was probably written in assembly. Paged memory, skip chains, ah there's job security there :-) That's why short lifetime is realistic. Have you tried to replace 5 year old PC components recently? I'll have to do labotomy on Gateway2000 because I need to find a DX4 to install Win98.
[I think you're also overlooking the fact that signals have to be replaced anyway. The real question should be whether the difference in cost between CBTC is so much greater than the cost of cab signals that it isn't made up for by the labor reduction over the working life of the system, and I don't see any evidence that it is.]
I'm not in favor of CAB signals. The existing type of wayside signals will provide all the capacity necessary. They can be replaced with modern equipment probably using PLC's for fairly low cost. Personally, I don't like PLC's. I will admit that I can't beat them in cost when I have to control digital signals. The come with serial communications modules, so you can interconnect them easily and economically.(If you stay clear of A-B.)
One factor that has been avoided is compatibility. You will still need a fully functioning wayside block system to take care of any equipment that does not have either CAB or CBTC equipment installed. Work trains, the collector, service diversions, etc. So, CAB and CBTC involves the cost of replacing the current signal system in kind plus its own cost.
What's the cost for a new wayside system? There are 20.5 track miles. If there were a signal every 1000 feet, that gives 110 signals. At $100,000 per signal (parts + installation) that gives: $11 million. That's a ballpark estimate. You can depreciate that over 5 years and still afford the a cost effective solution that will appear in the future.
[If you keep using it until it dies (or 25 years whichever comes last) then there is very little reason to replace the existing signal equipment. We've agreed that the marginal performance improvements are probably not necessary. We've agreed that OPTO savings would be equvalent to automatic train operation. You've contradicted yourself, if you want to cost justify the new signal system by keeping it until it breaks.]
The performance improvements are only marginal if compared to in-cab signalling, which is no less expensive to install than a more powerful CBTC system. Nor do I think it's meaningful to talk about marginal improvements on an overburdened system; among other thins, that 55 tph is twice the real-world capacity of existing lines, and so would allow two lines to share a tunnel at enormous savings.
It's meaningless to say that a system should not be installed because it will eventually be obsolete. One replaces it when one can afford to, and the cost/benefits analysis is positive or the replacement is necessary.
As for OPTO, I would eliminate both the conductor and operator, and the savings from eliminating the latter are the ones I've considered. It obviously makes more sense to eliminate the conductor first, since it requires little investment, but that has nothing to do with CBTC.
[The reason for change is that the old equipment is too expensive to maintain because parts can no longer be obtained. The same thing will happen to today's technology. Go back 25 years. I require a replacement for an 8080 multibus card or some DEC R series logic. Maybe I used a PDP-8. Find me a link tape or an ASR-33? Program maintenance? It was probably written in assembly. Paged memory, skip chains, ah there's job security there :-) That's why short lifetime is realistic. Have you tried to replace 5 year old PC components recently? I'll have to do labotomy on Gateway2000 because I need to find a DX4 to install Win98.]
All old systems face this problem. Buying sufficient spares are part of the answer; it costs little to buy additional boards in a project of this sort. And when it becomes desireable, it will be easy enough and cheap enough to snap out obsolete modules and replace them with new ones, whether on the trains or in the tunnels; but on the trains themselves, the system should be designed to last as long as the control electronics for the AC traction. If components are to be replaced with newwer designs in less than 25 years, it should be for reason of increased functionality, not poor planning.
[I'm not in favor of CAB signals. The existing type of wayside signals will provide all the capacity necessary. They can be replaced with modern equipment probably using PLC's for fairly low cost. Personally, I don't like PLC's. I will admit that I can't beat them in cost when I have to control digital signals. The come with serial communications modules, so you can interconnect them easily and economically.(If you stay clear of A-B.)]
There is no advantage to that--it's a bit like putting analog hands on a digital watch. With CBTC, not only do you double throughput and save money by eliminating the operator (a savings that will pay for the entire cost of the system in a few years, and so a no brainer from a business perspective), but you double throughput vs. a block system, you can run zoned trains, and you can improve customer service and profits by running frequent trains during off-peak hours.]
[One factor that has been avoided is compatibility. You will still need a fully functioning wayside block system to take care of any equipment that does not have either CAB or CBTC equipment installed. Work trains, the collector, service diversions, etc. So, CAB and CBTC involves the cost of replacing the current signal system in kind plus its own cost.
What's the cost for a new wayside system? There are 20.5 track miles. If there were a signal every 1000 feet, that gives 110 signals. At $100,000 per signal (parts + installation)]
That comes to maybe $5,000 for parts, $95,000 for installation--a pretty fair argument for privatization, given that that represents something like two man-years of labor to replace *one signal!*
[that gives: $11 million. That's a ballpark estimate. You can depreciate that over 5 years and still afford the a cost effective solution that will appear in the future.]
I don't have the figures, but there really is no reason outside of graft that a CTBC signal should be significantly more expensive than a new wayside system.
As for the handful of work trains, the cost of converting them would not be high.
[that 55 tph is twice the real-world capacity of existing lines, and so would allow two lines to share a tunnel at enormous
savings. ]
They used to run 36 tph on the Flushing Line in the early 1960's and 33 tph through 53rd St East River Tunnel on the "E" and "F" in the late 1950's using the existing signal systems. The E/F operation was even more interesting because they used 11 car R 1/9's. If you work out the math, you discover that this amounts to 71% more seats over today's 600 foot equipment and 27 tph. They run only 29 tph for the Flushing Line today. Contrary to popular myth, keying by was not required for such operation. Today's lower frequencies are due to a car shortage not to the present signal system's limitations. Moreover, if you look at the leave load for the various routes and extrapolate for increased frequency, you will find that you will come very close to my goal of fewer than 20% standees during rush hour. In short, CBTC's theoretical and undemonstrated 55 tph capacity is not double present capacity and is not necessary for present loads.
I really don't know, if I'd need CBTC technology to increase frequencies beyond 36 tph (100 sec intervals). CBTC's 55 tph corresponds to intervals of 65 seconds. Here are some of the IRT's figures from the WWI period: Lenox Ave Line - 90 sec; 2nd Ave El - 124 sec; 9th Ave El - 90 sec; 6th Ave El - 72 sec and 3rd Ave El - 43 sec.
[As for OPTO, I would eliminate both the conductor and operator ]
I would not even consider NPTO nor should you. If this were a private company, the higher cost of liability insurance premiums would negate any potential savings. You can propose such strategies because NYCT is self insured. What responsibilities that OPTO person will exercise is open to question not his presence.
[That comes to maybe $5,000 for parts, $95,000 for installation--a pretty fair argument for privatization, given that that represents
something like two man-years of labor to replace *one signal!*]
Let me allocate my seat of the pants estimate between parts and labor.
You will need to put this equipment in a NEMA-4 package (dust proof). You will have to use non-pvc insulated wire (plenum). You will have to program and document each signal's PLC. There will not be any significant quantity discounts because orders in the 100's are small potatoes for electronics gear. My target is 50-50 between cost and installation. Please remember, work will have to be scheduled between midnight and 5 AM. There is a shift differential factor.
[As for the handful of work trains, the cost of converting them would not be high. ]
One assumes that there is a conversion kit available. Even the recent WB closing point out to a dilemma. Do you convert every car so that it can run on CBTC track? If not, then how many and how can you reallocate equipment in the face of an extended service disruption like the WB closing? If you do convert all 60 foot cars, how do you cost justify it? What do you anticipate the cost will be to convert a car to potential CBTC operation?
[They used to run 36 tph on the Flushing Line in the early 1960's and 33 tph through 53rd St East River Tunnel on the "E" and "F" in the late 1950's using the existing signal systems. The E/F operation was even more interesting because they used 11 car R 1/9's. If you work out the math, you discover that this amounts to 71% more seats over today's 600 foot equipment and 27 tph. They run only 29 tph for the Flushing Line today. Contrary to popular myth, keying by was not required for such operation. Today's lower frequencies are due to a car shortage not to the present signal system's limitations. Moreover, if you look at the leave load for the various routes and extrapolate for increased frequency, you will find that you will come very close to my goal of fewer than 20% standees during rush hour. In short, CBTC's theoretical and undemonstrated 55 tph capacity is not double present capacity and is not necessary for present loads.
I really don't know, if I'd need CBTC technology to increase frequencies beyond 36 tph (100 sec intervals). CBTC's 55 tph corresponds to intervals of 65 seconds. Here are some of the IRT's figures from the WWI period: Lenox Ave Line - 90 sec; 2nd Ave El - 124 sec; 9th Ave El - 90 sec; 6th Ave El - 72 sec and 3rd Ave El - 43 sec.]
While I've heard various explanations, as I understand it, at least some of the reduction in capacity is the result of less aggressive door closing strategies.
I'd be a bit more aggressive than you are as far as providing seats during rush hour--it seems to me that seats should always be available except under unusual conditions. But the most effective way to achieve this would be to lengthen the stations.
It seems to me that the tunnels, though, would require new signals to effectively handle two lines; the block system is a real impediment there, since you'd have to run 54 tph just to equal the MTA's current frequencies. If you didn't want to go to cab signals or CBTC, you could install more frequent signals along the side, but again I don't see much of a cost advantage over CBTC. This may become a very practical issue if the B, D, and Q have to be diverted through the Rutgers tunnel.
Some other considerations--changing the fixed block signalling system adds significantly to the cost of lengthing stations and changing train lengths, something which seems to come up every few years, and since the MTA screwed with the brakes the blocks have really slowed things down.
[I would not even consider NPTO nor should you. If this were a private company, the higher cost of liability insurance premiums would negate any potential savings. You can propose such strategies because NYCT is self insured. What responsibilities that OPTO person will exercise is open to question not his presence.]
I can't imagine. The higher cost of insurance, or average liability in an accident plus profit, would have to be higher than the wages paid to the t/o's, and I can't imagine that that would be the case. For one thing, an NPTO system with track doors would be safer than an attended system without; if that weren't the case, I'd have absolutely no business suggesting it.
The only advantage of having an operator on board would be to lead the passengers to safety along the tracks, and there are other ways of handling the same responsibility.
[Let me allocate my seat of the pants estimate between parts and labor.
You will need to put this equipment in a NEMA-4 package (dust proof). You will have to use non-pvc insulated wire (plenum). You will have to program and document each signal's PLC. There will not be any significant quantity discounts because orders in the 100's are small potatoes for electronics gear. My target is 50-50 between cost and installation. Please remember, work will have to be scheduled between midnight and 5 AM. There is a shift differential factor.]
Dust proof packages and teflon wire don't add up to $50,000 by a long shot! It seems to me that almost all of the cost would be from installation, and that would depend on Local 3 and how much custom work they had to do. I'd modularize the hell out of everything, but you'd still have to attach stuff to existing equipment. Seems to me that's one of the advantages of CTBC--you have to hook up to power and to switches at the yard, but not much else. Among other things that means that the block system could continue functioning while you tested the CBTC system, first under manual control, then computer control with the block system as a backup.
{One assumes that there is a conversion kit available. Even the recent WB closing point out to a dilemma. Do you convert every car so that it can run on CBTC track? If not, then how many and how can you reallocate equipment in the face of an extended service disruption like the WB closing? If you do convert all 60 foot cars, how do you cost justify it? What do you anticipate the cost will be to convert a car to potential CBTC operation?]
I can't imagine converting much more than what's needed for the line, plus a few spares in case of an unusual shift in demand.
It seems to me that the cost of converting a car would depend very much on the car, its vintage, and what its purpose was, e.g., running as a work train in off-peak hours or carrying passengers during rush hour. If you're converting a work car, there's no need for conversion if there's no cab; you'd probably just put relays across the existing controls, or forgo even that and just add sensors, transponders and a computer to supply cab signals to the operator (the computer would make allowances for slower reaction time). Off the top of my head, I'd say $100,000 would do it--mostly for labor and custom design.
[While I've heard various explanations, as I understand it, at least some of the reduction in capacity is the result of less aggressive door closing strategies. ]
No, it's simply not enough trains. It takes at least as much total dwell time for the same number of passenger movements regardless of the number of trains. If you use 30 second dwell times for 30 tph, you should expect at least 38 seconds for 24 tph. You actually need more because the large number of standees interferes with swift passenger loading/unloading.
[I'd be a bit more aggressive than you are as far as providing seats during rush hour--it seems to me that seats should always be
available except under unusual conditions. But the most effective way to achieve this would be to lengthen the stations. ]
My choice for 20% standees during rush hour was chosen because it is achievable using existing equipment and frequencies that were previously used. More than 50% stand currently. I would like to guarantee everyone a seat but that would require new equipment and considerable expense. I set priorities with trying to get the biggest bang for the buck up front. I would suggest that you can achieve that goal, if you replace the stock with the A/B's. A 9-car train of A/B's provides 9% more seats than an 11 car train of R1/9's. Your strongest argument is the design of the new R142's and R143's, which have significantly fewer seats.
[Dust proof packages and teflon wire don't add up to $50,000 by a long shot! ]
I've had to use air-conditioned NEMA-4 enclosures that cost $20,000 by themselves.If you think that you can install a completely wired and documented signal for less than $100K, you are making my case stronger.
Among other things that means that the block system could continue
functioning while you tested the CBTC system, first under manual control, then computer control with the block system as a backup....I can't imagine converting much more than what's needed for the line, plus a few spares in case of an unusual shift in demand.
We're agreed that the current block system cannot be maintained indefinitely because spare parts are not available. So either you must equip all trains for CBTC operation or you must rebuild the block system as a backup. Murphy's Law will kick in, if you do not allow for one or the other contingency. The minimum fleet of CBTC cars will be recalled for some safety emergency and you will no longer have a working block system.
It seems to me that the cost of converting a car would depend very much on the car, its vintage, and what its purpose was,... If you're converting a work car, ... just put relays across the existing controls...Off the top of my head, I'd say $100,000 would do it--mostly for labor and custom design.
I would hope your are talking about solid state relays, right? Next, that's $100K per car for a conversion. Might I assume that you would need one such car at either end so that the "off the top" conversion cost for a train would be $200K.
It seems to me that the tunnels, though, would require new signals to effectively handle two lines; the block system is a real
impediment there, since you'd have to run 54 tph just to equal the MTA's current frequencies. If you didn't want to go to cab signals
or CBTC, you could install more frequent signals along the side, but again I don't see much of a cost advantage over CBTC. This may
become a very practical issue if the B, D, and Q have to be diverted through the Rutgers tunnel.
They've screwed with the brakes sufficiently so that 54 tph is not achievable even with CBTC. The theoretical limit is closer to 50 tph. The theoretical block signal limit is around 43 tph. You should derate this limit by 10% to get a realistic achievable target.
[No, it's simply not enough trains. It takes at least as much total dwell time for the same number of passenger movements regardless of the number of trains. If you use 30 second dwell times for 30 tph, you should expect at least 38 seconds for 24 tph. You actually need more because the large number of standees interferes with swift passenger loading/unloading.]
One of the things I've learned here is that the official explanations for overcrowding and capacity limitations are a crock. But I do think you have to take delays into account--on a heavily used line like the Lexington Avenue, even a small delay will cause a ripple effect, with dwell times increasing and capacity decreasing until the worst crowds are cleared out and trains can bypass the stations.
[My choice for 20% standees during rush hour was chosen because it is achievable using existing equipment and frequencies that were previously used. More than 50% stand currently. I would like to guarantee everyone a seat but that would require new equipment and considerable expense. I set priorities with trying to get the biggest bang for the buck up front. I would suggest that you can achieve that goal, if you replace the stock with the A/B's. A 9-car train of A/B's provides 9% more seats than an 11 car train of R1/9's. Your strongest argument is the design of the new R142's and R143's, which have significantly fewer seats.]
I agree, if it's a matter of priorities--but that doesn't mean I consider the service adequate. It strikes me as inexcusable that the subway doesn't offer everybody a seat in all but unusual circumstances. Why should we accept a transportation system that adheres to third world service standards?
{I've had to use air-conditioned NEMA-4 enclosures that cost $20,000 by themselves.If you think that you can install a completely wired and documented signal for less than $100K, you are making my case stronger.]
Not sure I follow you there--but air conditioning shouldn't be required, even in the high ambient temperature of a subway.
[We're agreed that the current block system cannot be maintained indefinitely because spare parts are not available. So either you must equip all trains for CBTC operation or you must rebuild the block system as a backup. Murphy's Law will kick in, if you do not allow for one or the other contingency. The minimum fleet of CBTC cars will be recalled for some safety emergency and you will no longer have a working block system.]
The block system could be maintained for the first year, long enough to verify the operation of the fleet.
Your point about having a backup in the case of a safety recall is valid, but it seems to me that the appropriate response would be to convert multiple lines before the block system gives out, or to convert an extra line's worth of trains to CBTC and run them in the old system, rather than revising a system that's obsolete. Caution is well and good, but you can't halt progress for it.
[I would hope your are talking about solid state relays, right? Next, that's $100K per car for a conversion. Might I assume that you would need one such car at either end so that the "off the top" conversion cost for a train would be $200K.]
Yes. And that $200K comes to a million for five work trains, small change in a $50 million project.
[They've screwed with the brakes sufficiently so that 54 tph is not achievable even with CBTC. The theoretical limit is closer to 50 tph. The theoretical block signal limit is around 43 tph. You should derate this limit by 10% to get a realistic achievable target.]
Seems to me that one of the advantages of more sophisticated control systems is that you can have a full hierarchy of brake speeds. Someone suggested once that they use the looser brake settings for the passenger cords, and the original settings for the trips; you could use that to restore the lost capacity. And I wonder about the possibility of adding pneumatic track brakes as emergency backups to further increase capacity by allowing synchronous low headroom operation. The savings from combining lines in tunnels are simply too good to pass up, and as I've said it seems to me that one of the big advantages of CBTC is that it will eventually permit highway style zoned express services.
[One of the things I've learned here is that the official explanations for overcrowding and capacity limitations are a crock. ]
I can assure you that my explanation of not enough trains is not the company line. I've never been connected with NYCT. I'm strictly an observer. My chief complaint is that they are giving my chosen profession, engineering, a bad name.
So far as I know, the official line is that boarding passengers are not allowing exiting passengers enough time to leave the trains. The most ridiculous article I read appeared many years ago in the NY Times. They found that when they replaced the R1/9's with the R44's that they could run only 27 tph rather than the 30 that they had previously scheduled. Rather than interpreting this as a need to run more trains, they decided to run only 27 tph because this was all they needed.
[But I do think you have to take delays into account--on a heavily used line like the Lexington Avenue, even a small delay will cause a ripple effect...
According to the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS, the Lex had significantly more passengers in 1960 than it does now.This report did not show how this larger demand was handled 40 years ago. You will weaken the case for any 2nd Ave Subway, if you pursue such a study.
Why should we accept a transportation system that adheres to third world service standards?
Actually, we don't have any service standards. That's why I tried to frame my priorities on the basis of service standards rather than an instrumentality to achieve them.
...air conditioning shouldn't be required, even in the high ambient temperature of a subway....
Heat dissipation is a problem, when electronics is contained within a NEMA4 cabinet. The best bet is to use the cabinet's exterior surface. This will not work, if part of the cabinet is exposed to direct sunlight. The elevated and surface running Canarsie section of the 14th St line will be subject to such exposure.
The real questions vis-a-vis a block system are capability, necessity and cost. Clearly you will want a capability that is substantially greater than the 30 tph that they project for the transbay tunnel. You should show an actual realistic working prototype that exhibits the the 50-55 tph performance that you are claiming. Again, keep in mind that the demonstrated capacity for a block system is 30-35 tph.
The only place where the higher capacity might be necessary would be the hypothetical elimination of the MB tracks without any replacement tunnel. If this were a real necessity, you could also reduce the block sizes between York St and W 4th. This would raise the capacity closer to the theoretical limit of 43 tph for block systems and the current equipment. Improving brakes and acceleration would bring the theoretical capacity back up to 47 tph. They currently run 38 tph on through the Rutgers St Tunnel and MB. There are other conventional solutions for even this hypothetical case.
There are at least three technologies: block; CAB and CBTC. They all meet existing demand and even future contingencies. What about cost. I've tried to document some seat of the pants estimates for block system. My claim has been that this is the least expensive. You have stated that my block system estimate is too high. I have not seen any estimates for the other technologies. I'll accept your estimate of $100K to outfit a cab for CBTC. Now what about the spread spectrum transponders. How many? We both believe that the transbay tunnel plan for 2.5 mile spacing is unrealistic. Similarly, CBTC requires a method to measure the speed and position of the train. Neither of believes that the transbay radio positioning scheme will work.
I am not against CBTC. I am against unnecessary expenditures. I've seen many solutions looking for a problem during my career. My instincts tell me that CBTC is one. Please, show me otherwise. However, be warned, I read the specs and fine print very carefully.
BTW, how did they ever run 83 tph on the 3rd Ave El or 90 tph over the Brooklyn Bridge? Those who ignore history can't hope to repeat it.
(Steve B's tph figures)
Your're throwing around a lot of "trains per hour" figures. Are they for one direction or two?
What I've heard is that with current equipment they can get up to 30 trains per hour on one track, less if there are lots of stations and switching.
How does that affect the L at all? They've only got 12-16 trains per hour at rush hour.
The figures that I have stated are for a single track with all trains going in the same direction. The signal system is designed for 40 tph. However, a sufficient condition to ensure that all trains have green lights throughtout their run is to augment the interval by the average dwell time. Thus a 30 second dwell time and an interval of 90 + 30 = 120 sec means 30 tph. However, this is not a necessary condition and frequencies between 30 and 36 tph have been successfully run in the past with the present signal system.
The real limiting factor is the terminal arrangements. I have commented on how this is dealt with in an earlier post.
Again you can run between 30+ tph on the 14th St line in each direction. There are no switches so this is not a factor. Some switching configurations can reduce capacity. The worst case is the Nostrand Ave junction at Franklin Ave. However, full grade junctions such as at the 2&3 at Lenox and the J&M at Myrtle do not reduce capacity. It is simply a matter of properly planned schedules and operations.
The IRT figures I quoted came from a reliable source. I still find the 3rd Ave El figures hard to believe. However, even half that amount is much better than present operations. I do know how they achieved the quoted figures on the BB.
That's what I thought, Steve. So in that case, how can anything but a car shortage reduce the number of trains on the L. At 30 tph, they could double the number.
It also sounds like if they really pressed it, they could increase the number of trains on the Lex. They only really go up to 25. They might have to have two conductors on every platform at certain stations, but they could do it. They should consider it.
Also, might they consider skip-stopping the #6 in Manhattan? Everyone piles on the express. If the local was a little faster, perhaps fewer would.
It also sounds like if they really pressed it, they could increase the number of trains on the Lex. They only really go up to 25. They might have to have two conductors on every platform at certain stations, but they could do it. They should consider it.
There's a much more economical solution. Add 3 more trains but run them short between BB and 59th St. That will give you 30 tph between BB and 59th. Moreover, if you retime the intervals at 68th and 59th, you'll get extra load time at 59th. This is the worst station on the line so far as dwell time.
[According to the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS, the Lex had significantly more passengers in 1960 than it does now.This report did not show how this larger demand was handled 40 years ago. You will weaken the case for any 2nd Ave Subway, if you pursue such a study.]
The Lexington Avenue capacity argument is indeed something of a crock.
[Heat dissipation is a problem, when electronics is contained within a NEMA4 cabinet. The best bet is to use the cabinet's exterior surface. This will not work, if part of the cabinet is exposed to direct sunlight. The elevated and surface running Canarsie section of the 14th St line will be subject to such exposure.]
True, but it seems to me that the right solution is to put the electronics in custom cabinets and use mil spec components if absolutely necessary. Air conditioning is unreliable and as you say expensive; it shouldn't be necessary for these relatively simple systems.
[The real questions vis-a-vis a block system are capability, necessity and cost. Clearly you will want a capability that is substantially greater than the 30 tph that they project for the transbay tunnel. You should show an actual realistic working prototype that exhibits the the 50-55 tph performance that you are claiming. Again, keep in mind that the demonstrated capacity for a block system is 30-35 tph.]
LOL, when I bid on the project I'll show a prototype. Otherwise, industry consensus figures and a little bit of common sense will do; block systems waste a lot of space.
I don't now where they got the 30 tph figure for the transbay tunnel. As others have pointed out, it seems strangely low.
[The only place where the higher capacity might be necessary would be the hypothetical elimination of the MB tracks without any replacement tunnel. If this were a real necessity, you could also reduce the block sizes between York St and W 4th. This would raise the capacity closer to the theoretical limit of 43 tph for block systems and the current equipment. Improving brakes and acceleration would bring the theoretical capacity back up to 47 tph. They currently run 38 tph on through the Rutgers St Tunnel and MB. There are other conventional solutions for even this hypothetical case.]
Maybe, but you know, I don't see them being used. It's well and good to talk about the theoretical capacity of the block system, but the simple reality is that they can't even get past 27 tph anymore. Something always comes up, like the brakes. And you have to consider headroom as well: no system can be expected to operate constantly at its theoretical capacity. The real crunch comes when a door sticks or a passenger gets sick, and then the system has a lot of catching up to do.
And I don't think it makes sense to talk solely about the Rutgers Street tunnel, either--they'll have to add another tunnel for the N and the R if the Manhattan Bridge goes, and there are other lines that could benefit from increased throughput.
[There are at least three technologies: block; CAB and CBTC. They all meet existing demand and even future contingencies. What about cost. I've tried to document some seat of the pants estimates for block system. My claim has been that this is the least expensive. You have stated that my block system estimate is too high. I have not seen any estimates for the other technologies. I'll accept your estimate of $100K to outfit a cab for CBTC. Now what about the spread spectrum transponders. How many? We both believe that the transbay tunnel plan for 2.5 mile spacing is unrealistic. Similarly, CBTC requires a method to measure the speed and position of the train. Neither of believes that the transbay radio positioning scheme will work.]
True, but there are other schemes that will, and some of them are quite inexpensive. My personal inclination would be to use an optical strip below the train for primary location, with beacons and tach pulses from the wheels as a check and backup. Both technologies cost very little.
I don't have a figure for how many spread spectrum transceivers are required, because an estimate would require information I don't have--among other things, it would depend on tunnel curvature. But the actual units cost little in a well-designed project of this sort; I'd probably aim for a $10,000 box, and most of that would be for the enclosure, since the boards themselves would cost little. Engineering, software development, testing, and installation are where the real costs are, and they're pretty much fixed. You can make a lot of transceivers for little more than the cost of one.
[I am not against CBTC. I am against unnecessary expenditures. I've seen many solutions looking for a problem during my career. My instincts tell me that CBTC is one. Please, show me otherwise. However, be warned, I read the specs and fine print very carefully.
BTW, how did they ever run 83 tph on the 3rd Ave El or 90 tph over the Brooklyn Bridge? Those who ignore history can't hope to repeat it.]
It's not really hard if you have good signals, good brakes, reasonable rules, and short dwell times. The efficiency of the subway system is remarkably low when you think about it. Why in the world should trains be 2 minutes apart? Does it take 2 minutes for a train to stop? One minute? Dwell times and inefficient signals. CBTC optimizes these, and opens the way for advanced zoned services and dynamic routing, safer and smoother operation, the highest possible throughput leading to improved service and lower tunnel costs, labor and energy savings, versatile train lengths and speeds, and best of all economical round the clock operation of peak routes at peak levels. It may cost a bit more than what you've proposed, but it seems to me its well worth the extra cost, particularly since the signal system has to be replaced, and AC control stock which can take the best advantage of the new technology is beginning to arrive.
[True, but it seems to me that the right solution is to put the electronics in custom cabinets and use mil spec components if absolutely necessary. Air conditioning is unreliable and as you say expensive; it shouldn't be necessary for these relatively simple systems.]
Industrial grade has top operating temperature of 50 C or 122 F. If the cabinet exterior is in direct sunlight and the electronics, which generate heat, are inside a NEMA4 enclosure then you are in trouble. Even if you went to mil grade and got an extra 20 C or a top of 158 F you might be in trouble. Add in a little global warming, if you don't like my idea of a 5 year payout. Nothing insoluable, just a little more money. Please remember that 8 years after installation some management type will order all the cabinet exteriors painted flat black.
True, but there are other schemes that will, and some of them are quite inexpensive. My personal inclination would be to use an optical strip below the train for primary location, with beacons and tach pulses from the wheels as a check and backup. Both technologies cost very little.
How do existing systems measure speed and distance? Could you possibly attach a numerical value to "cost very little?"
I don't have a figure for how many spread spectrum transceivers are required, because an estimate would require information I don't have--among other things, it would depend on tunnel curvature. But the actual units cost little in a well-designed project of this sort; I'd probably aim for a $10,000 box, and most of that would be for the enclosure, since the boards themselves would cost little. Engineering, software development, testing, and installation are where the real costs are, and they're pretty much fixed. You can make a lot of transceivers for little more than the cost of one.
Part of engineering is making estimates without a complete knowledge of a project's scope. State your assumptions and work from there. If your estimates are unbiased then the law of large numbers will work in your favor. We want to show the tradeoffs for the different technologies, We're not submitting a formal binding bid. Please, get off the soap box, get out the pencil, spreadsheet or slide rule and get out some numbers we can all examine. As one of my professors used to say: if you can't measure it, then it does not exist.
Why in the world should trains be 2 minutes apart? Does it take 2 minutes for a train to stop? One minute?
This is high school physics.
braking & acceleration = 1.5 mph/sec
speed = 45 mph
train length = 600 feet
min buffer zone between trains = 600 feet
mechanical delay for signals = 5 sec
time to stop = 30 sec.
time to travel 1 train length + buffer @ 45 mph = 18.1 sec.
time for following train to stop = 30 + 18.1 = 48.1 sec.
time for lead train to move 600 feet from stop = 23.3 sec
total time between trains with 1st train doing stop/start
without delaying following train and allowing for signal
latency = 48.1 + 23.3 + 5 = 76.4 ==> 47.1 tph
Personally, I like the signal system as proposed.
In the subway, you can't just the speed and distance of the train ahead of you, or stop as quickly, as in a car. So the signals leave too much space. If a train could slow down the instant the train in front slowed down, because the computer controlling both trains made it do so, you'd need less room, and you could run more trains with less risk of rear ending.
Yes you could have more closely spaced signals, with sensors to more accurately put out yellows and reds. But you'd still have reaction time. Not to mention mind wandering and falling asleep issues. They're bad enough on the road.
...the signals leave too much space.
The 600 foot cushion is due to differences in braking rates between trains. As long as trains with one or more malfunctioning brakes are permitted to operate, this buffer will be required. N.B. I believe that the actual cushion on NYCT is something line 700-750 feet. The increase was implemented after the WB collision. Something about needing the extra braking distance for the heavier trains or some other double speak.
If a train could slow down the instant the train in front slowed down...
Knowing the speed of the train ahead will help ONLY if that lead train never stops. The worst case is a train approaching a train stopped in a station. If you don't want trains crawling through the tunnels between stations, you limit frequency to the worst case figure.
...you'd still have reaction time....
That accounts for 5 seconds. That is the only time savings that CAB or CBTC will provide. This represents less than a 10% improvement.
Not to mention mind wandering and falling asleep issues.
I would think that dead man's switches should take care of the falling asleep. Computer also have "mind wandering" problems called bugs. They may be induced by oversights in the original program or selective component failure.
The question really comes down to cost. If a retrofit cost comes to more than 10% of a new line, then I would seriously question the long term value of the benefit.
[The 600 foot cushion is due to differences in braking rates between trains. As long as trains with one or more malfunctioning brakes are permitted to operate, this buffer will be required. N.B. I believe that the actual cushion on NYCT is something line 700-750 feet. The increase was implemented after the WB collision. Something about needing the extra braking distance for the heavier trains or some other double speak.]
But that increase has had a disproportionate impact on service speed. A good argument for replacing the block system, which in the real world is often mismatched with actual train lengths and characteristics.
[Knowing the speed of the train ahead will help ONLY if that lead train never stops. The worst case is a train approaching a train stopped in a station. If you don't want trains crawling through the tunnels between stations, you limit frequency to the worst case figure.]
True, but as I pointed out elsewhere not true of a shared river tunnel.
[...you'd still have reaction time....
That accounts for 5 seconds. That is the only time savings that CAB or CBTC will provide. This represents less than a 10% improvement.]
That, and precise speed control and acceleration/deceleration with AC control, which assuming a linear rate is good for perhaps 20% more.
[I would think that dead man's switches should take care of the falling asleep. Computer also have "mind wandering" problems called bugs. They may be induced by oversights in the original program or selective component failure.]
Any competently designed automated system will be significantly safer than manual operation.
If the braking systems of todays subway cars were to be modified to decrease stopping distances in an emergency brake application and not necessarily the train speed along with it PLUS decreasing the size of some signal blocks train thoroughput could be increased. But I think we'll just have to wait till CBTC is implemented.
[If the braking systems of todays subway cars were to be modified to decrease stopping distances in an emergency brake application and not necessarily the train speed along with it PLUS decreasing the size of some signal blocks train thoroughput could be increased. But I think we'll just have to wait till CBTC is implemented.]
It shouldn't be that way, but I think you're right.
If the braking systems of todays subway cars were to be modified to decrease stopping distances in an emergency brake application and not necessarily the train speed along with it PLUS decreasing the size of some signal blocks train thoroughput could be increased.
The present system, with its existing block lengths, top speed and braking rate have a possible throughput in excess of 30 tph. Why do you have to make these changes to demonstrate that there is a lack of rolling stock?
But I think we'll just have to wait till CBTC is implemented.
Suppose these changes were implemented and there were sufficient rolling stock, what's the relevance of CBTC?
I have been following your post and others from Sydney, on the question of line capacity and you have specifically mentioned the NY 'L' Line. I rode the line last October and found it just a normal NY subway line. But having a reasonably long memory, I dug up a copy I have of the initial Annual Report of the TA from 1953-4. In the back of that is a map (flow chart it is called) showing all lines in the AM rush with actual tph and maximum capacity. The L line showed service as 24 trains with 140 cars against a capacity of 32 trains of 256 cars. From looking at the schedules on-line in May last, it has a lot fewer trains now.
Now I don't know if the signalling today has changed in capacity from 1953 but wonder if other factors are limiting train throughput. Putting in an automated system is fine but as you say it costs $$$. What therefore has been the experience of one major line which is automated, the London Victoria Line? The Working time-table there (I have a copy from 1996) shows mainly headways of 2.5 mins with a few 2.0 from time to time. Now they terminate at the southern end into a two platform layout just like the Manhattan end of the L line. I think the frequency is governed more by demand and dwell times than anything else.
I also have time-tables of several London lines from the 1950s where MOST, not a few, are working at 1.5min headway, 40 tph and they used to achieve that for the whole rush hour. Now the minimum is about 30 tph for two reasons - lower demand, and I think more appropriate to what you are speaking of - station dwell time. Years ago, train loadings were more towards joining in the city and leaving in the suburbs. Now the cross flow of passengers, just as in NY, can be all over the city.
What is the cost of reducing station stops to achieve more throughput vs sophisticated signalling - unless it is to save manpower or to achieve a new breakthrough in signalling?
Very few subway lines apear to better 30 tph (Paris has a few), London now none. The new Jubilee line has tried to introduce 'moving block' which I believe has now been stopped and they use conventional signalling. When I tried to use a part of it in October, it was shut down - at 1500!!
I noted in NY in October, that your system can still manage 30 tph on the Queens Boulevarde with the Express E/F lines but no other track has that capacity requirement. Even the Lex express in the peak 'half-hour' only moves about 27 tph, also the 6. Going back to 1953-4 the Flushing line was moving 36tph of 324 cars against a capacity of 40/360.
What has changed since 1954?
I hope this is of assistance.
CBTC isn't being installed on the Canarsie Line because there's a pressing need for 50+ trains per hour, or 40, or even 30, on this line. It's being installed there because the Canarsie Line is isolated from the rest of the system (operationally if not physically). Only one route (L) runs there. This makes the line a good test bed, because it's easy to have a dedicated fleet of cars to run on the line and because the signal system's crapping out (if it happens) won't take down the rest of the BMT-IND with it.
Once CBTC is made/proven to work as intended, it will become the standard throughout the NYC subway system. And lest anyone start asking why the Flushing Line (#7) wasn't chosen, be assured that this line will be one of the first to get resignalled with CBTC once the technology becomes standard.
David
There are 4 routes that do not share tracks with other lines: #1, #6, #7 and "L". The "L" is the least patronized of the four. It is least in need of capacity in excess of 30 tph. That is why this line was chosen to demonstrate a technology that claims a capacity in excess of 40 tph.
I already addressed the #7. #6 and #1 trains do not have trains crossing in front of them, except at night, when they share trackage with #4 and #2 trains, respectively. And the possibility is always there that due to a General Order, delay, etc., #2, #3, or #4 trains may be rerouted onto the local track. Therefore, the cars assigned to those lines would have to be equipped for CBTC, which would be a VERY expensive proposition in (what must be remembered is) a test.
David
...the cars assigned to those lines would have to be equipped for CBTC, which would be a VERY expensive proposition in (what must be remembered is) a test.
Just how much does the "L" line test cost? Perhaps you could define VERY expensive, expensive, reasonable and inexpensive :-)
The CBTC system must be able to handle the presence of non-CBTC equipment - work trains, emergency diversions, etc. Is a car conversion kit part of this test?
The lack of any capacity related test criteria for the "L" brings up a rather obvious question. Just what is the object of this test: to see if the MTA/NYCT can spend money on a project that will provide no additional capability? :-)
The CBTC test on the L line will include the installation of CBTC equipment on work cars that are normally used on the line. There are no emergency diversions on the L line (don't go into the Jamaica Line connection -- it's not used for regular service or for emergency diversions).
CBTC is primarily intended to allow trains to operate at higher speeds with a greater margin of safety than the current signal system allows. It is not primarily intended to allow for increased through-put, although it MAY work out that through-put can increase. In the NYC transit system in particular, through-put is constrained by dwell time, which is not necessarily a function of the amount of service being scheduled to run through a particular area. One person holding doors is all it takes to bring the rush hour to a screeching halt, whether trains are scheduled to run 10 minutes apart or 1 minute apart.
David
I have two problems with your explanation that there will never be any foreign equipment on the 14th St line. The first is that such a stingent requirement would be impractical future widespread incremental deployment. This problem will have to be faced in the future. If it is insolubale, then the chosen technique is not practicable. The second is Murphy's Law, which ought not be ignored in an operation as complex and unpredictable as NYCT.
CBTC is primarily intended to allow trains to operate at higher speeds with a greater margin of safety than the current signal system allows.
I always wondered what was the service related objective for CBTC. Thank you for this nugget of information. Let's see, the average running time is 37 minutes and the distance is 10.3 miles. That comes to 16.7 mph. Seems that there may be room for improvement.
How much improvement could we expect? The trains are either accelerating, braking, cruising or standing still in stations. Excluding dwell time, which will not change we can get a reasonable estimation for the potential time savings.
There is a limit to the top maximum speed. It will be achieved when there is no cruising time. The train will be either accelerating and then braking.
There are 25 stations on the line. This means that the average distance between stations is 2266 feet. Again, let us assume equal acceleration and braking rates of 1.5 mph/s. This means that the trains will accelerate to their max velocity, when they apply their brakes. Again, applying high school physics, we can see that they will attain a maximum velocity of 48 mph. This may or may not be a significant improvement over the existing top speed of 45 mph.
Let's examine the possible significance of the 6.7% in train speed. What's the time savings? Currently 30 seconds each are for accelerating and braking. This covers a total distance of 1984.5 feet. The remaining 281.5 feet is covered in 4.26 seconds, while travelling at 45 mph. This gives a total average inter-station travel time of 64.26 seconds. The time to accelerate to 48 mph is 32 seconds. This means that the minimum inter-station travel time is 64 seconds. The time savings is 0.26 seconds per station or 6.24 seconds over the entire run. I would assume that this maximum possible benefit is insignificant to overall operations.
It is not primarily intended to allow for increased through-put, although it MAY work out that through-put can increase.
NYCT is in the business of moving people. This takes a certain number of cars per hour. Entertaining the implementation of any new technology, without linking its performance to any affect on capacity is irresponsible.
In the NYC transit system in particular, through-put is constrained by dwell time, which is not necessarily a function of the amount of service being scheduled to run through a particular area.
Dwell time is determined by uncomfortable fact that passengers constitute an incompressible mass. This means that only a certain number of people per minute can fit through train door openings. The conclusion is that the total dwell time is constant for a constant number of passenger movements over a constant time. Thus, if 15 tph required an average of 45 seconds dwell time, one could reasonably expect that 30 tph operation would require only 22.5 second average dwell time. I disagree with your assertion that dwell time is not related to the amount of service.
One person holding doors is all it takes to bring the rush hour to a screeching halt, whether trains are scheduled to run 10 minutes apart or 1 minute apart.
There are many ways to bring a schedule to a screeching halt. You have identified one cause; there are many others which are controllable through management and design. When there are crush load conditions it is sometimes difficult to ascertain whether the cause was induced by passengers or management.
I give up. I'm neither mathemetician nor engineer. I'm just in the business of moving people.
David
I'm neither mathemetician nor engineer. I'm just in the business of moving people.
The two are not contradictory. You will need to use mathematics, engineering and science, if you want to move people. The alternative is trial and error, which is a very expensive and risky proposition.
I looked up some information. Not all work equipment assigned to Canarsie Line service will be equipped for CBTC, and work equipment that comes from other lines won't be equipped for it. I take back what I said before about work equipment on the Canarsie Line and CBTC.
What hasn't been mentioned is that an Auxiliary Wayside System (AWS) will be installed on the Canarsie Line along with CBTC. This AWS will allow for a minimal level of service to operate in the event of a CBTC failure, and will allow for equipment from other lines (passenger or otherwise) to operate safely on the Canarsie Line.
Some additional information: The new R-143 cars will be designed for a maximum speed of 55 mph, while the current R-40/R-42 cars on the line (thanks to the removal of the last stage of field shunting in reaction to shortcomings in the existing signal system [I won't get into an argument over whether those shortcomings are real or perceived, but it must be acknowledged that NYCT reaacted to them] can only get to approximately 45 mph. The cars will be designed for a full service braking rate of 3.0 mph/second. I noticed that Mr. Bauman's calculations indicated an acceleration rate of 1.5 mph/second. Post-World War II equipment is designed for an acceleration rate of 2.5 mph/second, though without that last stage of field shunting there's a question as to how long that rate is maintained. Unfortunately, I don't have information on the proposed R-143 acceleration rate (anyone reading this board who does, please chime in), but it stands to reason that it would be better than 1.5 mph/second.
Obviously, Mr. Bauman does not agree with my statements. However, outside of the one discussed at the top of this message, which I retracted upon researching the question, I stand by everything I have said. I don't dispute that CBTC has more potential benefits than it appears will be tapped by this test, and I have no desire to get into an argument over the merits of CBTC.
David
The presence of the AWS is reassuring. It's necessary for safety. It also shows that any CBTC implementation really requires building two systems - one CAB based and an AWS. This makes it highly unlikely that any CBTC system can cost less than a conventional wayside block system because it consists a conventional wayside block system plus an entirely different CAB based system.
I have used a quasi-linear approximation method in my analysis for several reasons. It is accurate for the parameters that it is being applied to predict. It does not require detailed dynamic information regarding acceleration and braking. Its application results in calulations and formulae that were taught in New York City high school physics classes I took 43 years ago. I have no desire to snow anybody by applying more advanced mathematical techniques.
Neither braking nor acceleration is described by a single number in the real world. However, any errors introduced by such an approximation are negligible, when this approximation is applied to determining the time to go from one speed to another and the distance travelled in the process. Generally they start at a high value and gradually diminish. One should expect that the single quasi-linear model value would be substantially less than the initial value. This initial value is usually given in the specs, as you wisely noted.
The values that I used came from measurements that I took during rides I took on the system. The values are substantially below the published specs for the equipment. There is no guarantee that they will be operated at their spec. Maximum acceleration and speed require more power. Maximum speed and acceleration were reduced to save on the electric bill. Similarly, braking rates were reduced to reduce every day passenger injuries. I believe that my figures accurately reflect the current system as it is. If people would prefer different values, I'd be happy to use them. They will not materially affect my conclusions.
I don't dispute that CBTC has more potential benefits than it appears will be tapped by this test...
Which makes the choice of the 14th St line a singularly poor choice to demonstate them.
Here's another reason the 14th Street-Canarsie Line was picked for a CBTC test: it was one of the next on the "list" for signal replacement. Every item in the NYC transit system has an expected life for purposes of developing plans for rehabilitation or replacement. For signals, it's 50 years (I won't argue the reasons, I'm just reporting the fact). The 14th Street-Canarsie Line's signal system is well over 50 years old. By contrast, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line's signals were replaced circa 1980, while the Lexington Avenue Line's were replaced circa 1963. Thus, neither is eligible for replacement at this time, while several lines or line segments (such as Concourse, from ca. 1933) are due now or overdue. Of those, the 14th Street-Canarsie was one of two (Flushing being the other) that are sufficiently isolated from the rest of the system to allow an unsuccessful test to occur without taking the rest of a division down with it. (Using the previous example, if Concourse had CBTC as a test, and it failed, service would be affected on Central Park West, Sixth Avenue, Fourth Avenue, West End, and Brighton.)
The 14th Street-Canarsie Line currently requires 19 trainsets at peak, while the Flushing Line currently requires 29 trainsets at peak. The 14th Street-Canarsie Line also serves fewer people than the Flushing Line does. Thus, a CBTC test would involve fewer cars on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line than on the Flushing Line (lowering the cost of the test), and a failure would affect fewer people. The AWS I described in my previous post would allow for worse than a 10-minute headway between Atlantic Avenue and Eighth Avenue and for a 5-minute headway (to allow for moves to/from the Rockaway Parkway car washer by equipment not normally used there) between Atlantic Avenue and Rockaway Parkway. While inadequate on either line, it would be closer to acceptable on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line than on the Flushing Line.
Another consideration is the rolling stock. The 14th Street-Canarsie Line's rolling stock will consist of new R-143 subway cars designed for CBTC. The Flushing Line's current rolling stock is on its way out, but will not be replaced for a few years, and the Corona Shop is not designed to handle R-142/142A subway cars (with their roof-mounted air-conditioning systems). If the 14th Street-Canarsie Line tests are successful, the Flushing Line will likely be next to get CBTC, the Corona Shop no doubt will be replaced on-site, and the IRT order that replaces the last of the Redbirds will be equipped for CBTC.
David
...Every item in the NYC transit system has an expected life for purposes of developing plans for rehabilitation or replacement. For signals, it's 50 years (I won't argue the reasons, I'm just reporting the fact)....
I pointed out in an earlier post that the 50-year replacement cycle for signals is about 35-40 years too long. My assertion is based on changing nature of the technology (better and cheaper) and difficulty and expense of maintaining orphaned components. This behavior is counter to the experience for almost every other economic sector. The only way to survive in a sector where there is runaway deflation is to quickly writeoff capital investments. This quick writeoff requirement makes justification for expensive long term electronics-related capital equipment extremely challenging. This is the reason that I advocate replacing existing block/wayside systems with similar types but using modern component methodologies (PLC's and other embedded computers). The cost for this course is an order of magnitude less than going the CBTC route.
The Flushing line signal system was installed between 1952-1954, which qualifies for the 50 year cycle. However, I would guess that the 14th St line system is probably predates unification.
The 14th Street-Canarsie Line currently requires 19 trainsets at peak, while the Flushing Line currently requires 29 trainsets at peak.
This points out a significant cost disadvantage for all CAB and CBTC vis-a-vis conventional block/wayside systems. The cost for conventional system is related solely to the length and topology of the route. The cost for the newer technologies is dependent on the number of trainsets, in addition to these other parameters.
The AWS I described in my previous post would allow for worse than a 10-minute headway between Atlantic Avenue and Eighth Avenue and for a 5-minute headway ...between Atlantic Avenue and Rockaway Parkway.
Judging from the schedule and track layout, I'd guess that they would have 2 blocks between Atlantic & Rockaway Pkwy, an Atlantic-Myrtle block, a Myrtle-Lorimer block, a Lorimer-3rd Ave block and a 3rd Ave-8th Ave block. That's 14 blocks for the 2 track line. I'd estimated 100 blocks for 90 second system. So, the AWS amounts to 14% of the cost of a complete replacement wayside block system.
Another consideration is the rolling stock. The 14th Street-Canarsie Line's rolling stock will consist of new R-143 subway cars designed for CBTC. The Flushing Line's current rolling stock is on its way out, but will not be replaced for a few years, and the Corona Shop is not designed to handle R-142/142A subway cars (with their roof-mounted air-conditioning systems). If the 14th Street-Canarsie Line tests are successful, the Flushing Line will likely be next to get CBTC, the Corona Shop no doubt will be replaced on-site, and the IRT order that replaces the last of the Redbirds will be equipped for CBTC.
Any CBTC system must permit retrofitting of existing rolling stock. The existing R62's could be such a retrofit candidate, if there is no desire to retrofit the soon to be retired R36's.
Unlike most contemporary computer-based electronic systems, CBTC will not be significantly less expensive than the discrete logic system it will replace. In fact it will be significantly more expensive. This additional expense could be justified, if it provided significantly more capacity or permitted significant labor savings. It will do neither. Its theoretical capacity increase is insignificant and OPTO wipes out any labor savings.
The point seems to be missed, over and over again: THIS IS A TEST!!!! THIS IS ONLY A TEST!!!! (exclamation points borrowed from RAILFAN WINDOWS ) The more cars you involve, the more lines you involve, the less of a test it becomes. Once the test is successfully completed (we hope), the rest of the system will be done.
David
The point seems to be missed, over and over again: THIS IS A TEST!!!! THIS IS ONLY A TEST!
If this is a test, by what yardstick does one measure success or failure?
How does one measure success or failure? How does one EVER measure success or failure?
Does the thing do what it's supposed to do? If it does, it passes; if not, and the reasons aren't correctable, then it fails.
David
How does one measure success or failure? How does one EVER measure success or failure?
One sets up objective measurable quantitative criteria, in advance, based on perceived needs and existing competing technologies. Such criteria would include cost relative to existing technology, capacity based on existing technology, extensibility to the entire system, etc.
Does the thing do what it's supposed to do? If it does, it passes; if not, and the reasons aren't correctable, then it fails.
In quantitative terms what is it supposed to do?
I've already explained what it's supposed to do, and no doubt NYCT's criteria for measuring success or failure are similar to what Mr. Bauman has laid out. I think any further explanation would involve going over things that have already been discussed, so at this point I recuse myself.
I will say, however, that I have enjoyed the opportunity to engage in some intelligent discourse on a transit-related subject, for which I thank Mr. Bauman and all others who contributed.
David
Interesting discussion. I cannot add to your discussion of costs or benefits, but for two things:
The AWS backup system installed along side a CBTC system can be quite minimal. With fewer blocks, and designed only for a minimal speed (say 15 mph), and designed only for the minimal service while the CBTC is brought back up, it could be a lot cheaper - and require a lot less maintenence expenditure - that a full-blown system, meant to operate the system at rush hour.
Secondly, Stephen, I just do not see your point regarding the selection of the 14th St/ Canarsie line for the initial installation of CBTC. That is like criticizing the R - 142 because it is initially being tested in non-revenue service. It makes perfect sense for the TA to test it on a less critical line, under less difficult conditions. This would essentially be a test of the system, NOT the systems abilities - does the system work. No, this will not be as rigorous a test as when it is then phased in on the Flushing line, or some line of similar load. But it is very sensible to test it on the less critical line first. If the 14th/Canarsie tests are sucessful, and the TA follows up on this by installing the equipment on the Franklin ave shuttle or the M in Queens, then you'll have a point...
The cost for the CBTC is an order of magnitude greater than upgrading the existing system by using current technology. The cost disparity means that CBTC had better deliver significant savings to justify its cost.
The two principal savings would be labor through ATO and increased capacity so that new lines need not be built.
CBTC would appear to do neither. OPTO reduces the potential cost savings by 50%. All existing and proposed CBTC systems operate fewer tph than are currently operated on many NYCT lines. If you do some historical research, these CBTC systems operate fewer tph than used to operate on all NYCT lines during rush hours.
The logic of spending billions to reduce capacity is mindboggling. It should question the effectiveness of any political and managerial structure that proposed it. One way of avoiding potential scrutiny would be to hide these embarassing facts. The selection the 14th St line provides such cover. It will permit a "successful" test, while avoiding the annoying real world capacity problems. The personnel will have retired by the time the impact of the capacity problems becomes obvious after the third CBTC installation.
Of course, they could have placed the trial on worst case system. The theory being: if it worked here then it would work everywhere. This is a legitmate engineering strategy - worst case scenerio. Unfortunately, by pursuing a best case scenerio, the 14th St line test will prove nothing.
Even with CBTC and higher allowable speeds, due to the close proximity of many stations and the number of curves on the L line, I wonder how often the equipment can actually run at 55 M.P.H.
Prior to the field-shunt modifications, all NYCT equipment could get up to 50-55 mph (of course, the R-44 and R-46 were able to do 70+ when delivered, but weren't supposed to do it on existing lines because the signal system couldn't handle it). Even under CBTC, the R-143s probably won't be able to sustain 55 mph for very long for the reasons Bill cited, but they'll be able to get there. It should also be remembered that the trackage around Atlantic Avenue will be consolidated soon, making that part of the line less curvy (at least in one direction).
David
Thank you very much for your input. The 1953-54 figures show operated trains with greater frequency than they currently claim is theoretically possible. I think we would all be interested in seeing these figures for all the lines. It might serve as a refreshing dose of truth serum to today's can't do mentality.
What has changed since 1954?
This question should be directed at MTA/NYCT management and preferably under oath.
I cannot speak for London or Paris. Here are some of my observations for NYC.
First, there is a severe car shortage. They have 15% fewer cars. Even allowing for different car dimensions (some newer cars are longer) there are 10% fewer cars.
Second, by dint of poor maintenance and even poorer engineering and design, a smaller percentage of this reduced fleet is available for service. Fleet availability is 85% as opposed to 95% in 1954.
Third, this shortage has forced them to run 20% fewer rush hour trains. Rush hour patronage has fallen by less than 20%. This has meant that there are more passengers per car than in 1954.
Fourth, the cars that replaced those used in 1954 seat far fewer passengers with no increase in usable standing room. The increase in car load combined with the poorer design has transformed heavy loading conditions to crush loading conditions.
Fifth, the crush loading conditions have meant that dwell time has increased faster than carried load. This has meant made it difficult to maintain today's reduced schedules.
Sixth, schedules are not as inventive as they were in meeting peak demand in an economical manner. The 14th St line used to run 3 services in 1954: express service from Canarsie; express service from Lefferts and local service from Myrtle - all terminating at 8th Ave. Today, just about all trains run between Canarsie and 8th Ave. Most of the crowding is between Myrtle and Manhattan. The 1954 schedule equalized the unequal station loads between the 3 services.
Stephen,
thank you very much for the very factual information on current NY conditions, only some of which I noted when I visited last October. I could let you have a list of the services on all lines in 1953-4 vs capacity but perhaps off-line. It will take a while for me to unscramble the local from express services in some cases. I can only give you this on groups of lines, not individual routes because that is not always shown (except for the L, 7, and branch lines in Brooklyn which possibly had a single service). Lex is easy because the local and express are shown so one could assume that the express figures relate to the 4 and 5 (which I recall seeing during my first visit to NY in October, 1960!) and they really ran trains then with Low-Vs!!
The operation of fewer trains due to car shortages causing longer station stops, hence inability to maintain schedule/headway is a problem which we had here some years ago and will see during our Olympic season in September.
But surely is not the excuse for better working. I guess its a trade off between money available in NY for transit vs schools, hospitals and other social funds.
Let me know a site to send the data and give me a few days to prepare it. As a matter of interest, have many of you people ever seen that map before? I would have thought it might be well known.
Is spending on new technology at vast cost justifiable when sufficient services cannot be maintained I wonder?
Ian
No one predicted the extent of the growth in subway ridership the past few years. Even so, my perception is that there is less crowding now than during the 1980s, because more of the rides are off peak. The real crunch is in places where there is an infrastructure problem that has been know about for 30 years -- ie. the Queens Boulevard line, the east side of Manhattan -- or the loss of track capacity -- ie. the Manhattan Bridge. There is a car shortage, but crowding is overstated aside from those cases.
There may be many wonderous things possible. Some may even be attributable to CBTC alone. Some might even be useful in NYCT. Others may be possible only with collateral infrastructure improvements. This presents an cost analysis problem because these collateral improvements may also be applicable to conventional solutions. Other improvements might be unnecessary for NYCT operations.
However, one of the first priorites should be to get a reliable estimate of the cost.
[How do existing systems measure speed and distance? Could you possibly attach a numerical value to "cost very little?"]
It depends on the system. Some use beacons and tach--the train has to pass a beacon to get its bearings. Some triangulate, which is obviously more practical in the open air where you don't have much of an echo problem.
In the case of an optical system, the main costs are design, software, and installation--parts amount to very little. The cost of the sensors and tach strips is miniscule--lenses, CCD's, a bit of circuitry for the optical versions--but it's not really meaningful to break it out from the wayside and onboard computers and transceivers. A spread spectrum radar ranging or amplitude triangulation system is a good deal more expensive because of the additional circuits required; I don't know what the actual cost would be because it would depend on the degree to which you could adapt existing technology such as the military system they're adapting for BART.
[Part of engineering is making estimates without a complete knowledge of a project's scope. State your assumptions and work from there. If your estimates are unbiased then the law of large numbers will work in your favor. We want to show the tradeoffs for the different technologies, We're not submitting a formal binding bid. Please, get off the soap box, get out the pencil, spreadsheet or slide rule and get out some numbers we can all examine. As one of my professors used to say: if you can't measure it, then it does not exist.]
I'm not aware of any bias, except the engineer's bias means that any project costs 3 times as much and takes 3 times as long as my initial guess (and for which I've compensated here as I do in real life). But you're right, I'm being lazy here, largely because I've had this discussion before and most of my estimates were made back then, when I took the time to get the figures I needed on the L, and I'll have to dig through my files to find them. It's a fair request, but I don't have time to do it tonight.
[Why in the world should trains be 2 minutes apart? Does it take 2 minutes for a train to stop? One minute?
This is high school physics.
braking & acceleration = 1.5 mph/sec
speed = 45 mph
train length = 600 feet
min buffer zone between trains = 600 feet
mechanical delay for signals = 5 sec
time to stop = 30 sec.
time to travel 1 train length + buffer @ 45 mph = 18.1 sec.
time for following train to stop = 30 + 18.1 = 48.1 sec.
time for lead train to move 600 feet from stop = 23.3 sec
total time between trains with 1st train doing stop/start
without delaying following train and allowing for signal
latency = 48.1 + 23.3 + 5 = 76.4 ==> 47.1 tph]
Obviously, but you've rather missed my point.
I await your estimates with keen anticipation.
BTW, in my numerical example showing how to derive the tph figure, I allowed 5 sec for signal latency. All the other parameters were based on existing train operating characteristics or required safety margin. The introduction of CBTC would influence only the signal latency (eliminate it actually). This would bring the minimum interval down to 71.4 sec permitting a max of 50.4 tph.
[BTW, in my numerical example showing how to derive the tph figure, I allowed 5 sec for signal latency. All the other parameters were based on existing train operating characteristics or required safety margin. The introduction of CBTC would influence only the signal latency (eliminate it actually). This would bring the minimum interval down to 71.4 sec permitting a max of 50.4 tph.]
? You have to combine operator's reaction time + safety margin with the time penalty for the worst case block latency to get the difference. Then consider that the maximum rate of comfortable acceleration/deceleration is higher in an ATC/AC controlled system because it's precisely controlled. And you have to take into consideration that running speed is not exactly controlled in a block/resistor system as it is in an ATC/AC system, meaning that the former has to include a safety margin to compensate for the variable performance of different models for a given running speed.
Then too, these figures aren't applicable to a long tunnel in which lines are combined; in that case throughput in an ATC system is determined by emergency rather than comfortable stopping distance.
Could we get some cost estimates first?
We can always try to figure out what additional rolling stock changes are required to improve performance in order to justify the costs. :-)
[Could we get some cost estimates first?
We can always try to figure out what additional rolling stock changes are required to improve performance in order to justify the costs. :-)]
The equation is more complicated than that; you have to look at benefits over the entire life of the system, during which existing stock will be progressively supplanted by trains with AC traction.
But how much is it going to cost? :-)
[But how much is it going to cost? :-)]
I'm working on it!
Damn, I need a better filing system.
[Any executive in private industry who proposed a 50-year deployment schedule for a vital capital improvement would be re-engineered on the spot.]
LOL--maybe they're trying to equal the record set by the Second Avenue Subway.
Seriously, the *entire subway system* was built in 41 years!
[There are several aspects to NYCT's procurement of CBTC that should raise red flags.
The present signal system was designed to handle 90 second headways. The "L" has 180 second headways. The effective headway on the "L" is limited by the track configuration at 8th Ave. This limits it to 120 second headways. This is also the best that CBTC will bring. So, there is no theoretical benefit to the investment on the 14th St Line. What you need is more trains and a willingness to run them.
The CBTC system has a system wide deployment schedule of 50 years. They are being phased in from the outer branches into the center. The trunk lines is where you need any increased capacity that CBTC will bring. Do you think it is possible that the technology will become obsolete within the next 50 years? NYCT has already taken steps in the procurement to guarantee that it will.]
Fifty years? That's ridiculous--at the rate things move now, it will be obsolete in a lot less time than that!
Sounds like they're really stuck in the 19th Century.
[The effective headway on the "L" is limited by the track configuration at 8th Ave. This limits it to 120 second headways.]
A CBTC system should be able to take trains out like a waltz. If they deployed crews right, seems to me that the throughput would be limited only by the time it takes a train to traverse the switch at a safe speed.
[[The effective headway on the "L" is limited by the track configuration at 8th Ave. This limits it to 120 second headways.]
A CBTC system should be able to take trains out like a waltz. If they deployed crews right, seems to me that the throughput would be
limited only by the time it takes a train to traverse the switch at a safe speed. ]
With an incoming speed of 5 mph - limited by the bumper at the end of the tracks - it takes 80+ seconds for a 500' long train to clear the tracks and stop. An outgoing speed of 10 mph (no bumper) requires 40+ seconds to clear the switch. This gives the 120 second headway.
What additional improvements will CBTC provide?
[With an incoming speed of 5 mph - limited by the bumper at the end of the tracks - it takes 80+ seconds for a 500' long train to clear the tracks and stop. An outgoing speed of 10 mph (no bumper) requires 40+ seconds to clear the switch. This gives the 120 second headway.
What additional improvements will CBTC provide?]
Reaction time improvements and precise control of speed, with a precise ramp down as the train approaches the bumper. As a rough estimate, I'd say you could trim 20-30 seconds from the headway--5 from improvements in reaction time, 5 from a higher average speed out, 10-20 from a higher average speed in. (Some of the time advantage reflects the precision of AC traction rather than CBTC.)
[[What additional improvements will CBTC provide?]
Reaction time improvements and precise control of speed, with a precise ramp down as the train approaches the bumper. As a rough
estimate, I'd say you could trim 20-30 seconds from the headway--5 from improvements in reaction time, 5 from a higher average
speed out, 10-20 from a higher average speed in. (Some of the time advantage reflects the precision of AC traction rather than
CBTC.) ]
Serves me right for giving you an open ended question:-)
However, I can think of two traditional strategies that will yield the same result - 40 tph without the need for CBTC or different equipment. This means that present service levels on the 14th St line can be doubled.
[Serves me right for giving you an open ended question:-)
However, I can think of two traditional strategies that will yield the same result - 40 tph without the need for CBTC or different equipment. This means that present service levels on the 14th St line can be doubled.]
Well, you have my attention--end the suspense!
The usual way is to have multiple terminals. As a previous poster noted there is a center layover track between the 6th and 8th Avenue stations. However, it is accessible only from 8th Ave. It had been accessible from both in the past. If it were accessible from 6th Ave, then you could terminate every third or fourth train at 6th Ave. Turning every 4th train with an input of 40 tph means you get 30 tph (120 sec interval) at 8th Ave and 10 tph (360 sec interval) at the layover track.
A second solution is to extend the tunnels at 8th Ave 600 feet further west. This would permit incoming trains to go through the switch at 10 mph because they do not have to worry about the bumper. This would reduce the incoming travel time over the switch to 40 sec - giving a round trip of 80 sec. This would permit 90 sec intervals or 40 tph operation.
I would assume that a combination of both would allow for any variablilty. However, I would first check to see how much service is currently available and warranted before proceeding.
I think you would be shocked, if you were to examine the intervals that were common on the El's around WWI.
[The usual way is to have multiple terminals. As a previous poster noted there is a center layover track between the 6th and 8th Avenue stations. However, it is accessible only from 8th Ave. It had been accessible from both in the past. If it were accessible from 6th Ave, then you could terminate every third or fourth train at 6th Ave. Turning every 4th train with an input of 40 tph means you get 30 tph (120 sec interval) at 8th Ave and 10 tph (360 sec interval) at the layover track.
A second solution is to extend the tunnels at 8th Ave 600 feet further west. This would permit incoming trains to go through the switch at 10 mph because they do not have to worry about the bumper. This would reduce the incoming travel time over the switch to 40 sec - giving a round trip of 80 sec. This would permit 90 sec intervals or 40 tph operation.
I would assume that a combination of both would allow for any variablilty. However, I would first check to see how much service is currently available and warranted before proceeding.
I think you would be shocked, if you were to examine the intervals that were common on the El's around WWI.]
I misunderstood what you were saying. Those would certainly work.
The four extra minutes on the F between Jay St and Stillwell Ave is given just in case a G train crosses in front of you at Bergen St and a Kings Highway drop-out is in front of you.If the KHWY train is in front of you, that train will probably have to wait at Avenue P for the center track to open up.I think you need more time from 47-50St to W4 ST.You get hit hard especially at 23ST.
Ah, someone who understands. That's exactly true. But if you examine the timetable, you'll see almost all of the F's heading north have the same schedules. Regardless of conflict with other trains. And true 23rd is a major stop. But I speak of after 23rd. 3 minutes to do 3 heavy stops? If the train is on time at W4th then it will be late at 47-50. So consequently many trains are allowed to run early. A big no no in my book.
[(Reasons for overcrowding on L line)
You forgot to list an influx of educated whites -- whose concerns manage to get on the radio -- in the area around the last stop before Manhattan ... BTW, as per a person who lives there and is on the community board, the L train riders are too afraid of "the element" to take the J/Z/M, and were worried about what would happen during the
bridge closing when all those people were on their train!]
Now really. By the time a Manhattan-bound L gets to Williamsburgh, you'll see plenty of black, brown and yellow faces on board - except (possibly) for Canarsie, the L runs almost exclusively through nonwhite 'hoods in Brooklyn. Anybody who's that scared of "the element" would avoid the L just as much as the J/M/Z. In fact, he or she probably wouldn't be living in Williamsburgh in the first place.
(Anyone afraid of minorities wouldn't be living in Williamsburg and riding the L).
You'd think so. But those who live there tell me otherwise. It makes no sense to me.
Actually, it's simple. The L runs underneath the "hood". The J and M run above ground, where the "hood" is there for all to see. You're generally not afraid of things you don't see with your own 2 eyes.
There is some validity to the statement that your not afraid of what you cannot see. If Fulton Street subway were above ground (as it once was), I am sure that not as many whites would be riding through ENY, Bedford-Stuyvesant and Clinton Hill. During the peak, the A line has almost as many whites as blacks on board--especially the Far Rockaway branch with folks heading to Howard Beach and JFK Airport.
"There is some validity to the statement that your not afraid of what you cannot see. If Fulton Street subway were above ground
(as it once was), I am sure that not as many whites would be riding through ENY, Bedford-Stuyvesant and Clinton Hill. During
the peak, the A line has almost as many whites as blacks on board--especially the Far Rockaway branch with folks heading to
Howard Beach and JFK Airport."
Not true at all. Everyone that most of the people who ride the A/C are Blacks. The J/L/Z/ consist of a larger hispanic population. On the other hand, whites can be found mostly on the N/Q/R/F/B lines.
N Broadway Linexpress
During the 1980s, I noticed that the A/C/F/ lines were mixed as far as Jay Street borough hall, but then all the Blacks got off the F to get on the A/C, and all the whites got off the A/C to ride the F.
While one race still predominates on these lines, its much more mixed today. There are more Blacks on the F, and presumably living in the southern division, and more whites on the A, and presumably living in the Eastern Division, esp. Fort Greene.
It is a testament to the enforcement of fair housing laws, which prevent whites from keeping out minorities, and to falling crime, which makes whites more comfortable in minority neighborhoods.
I'd have to say the city is much more healthy than in the 1980s, even though average incomes, total employment, welfare dependency etc. is right about where it was in 1989. Nowadays, you get the feeling things can keep getting better.
[While one race still predominates on these lines, its much more mixed today. There are more Blacks on the F, and presumably living in the southern division, and more whites on the A, and presumably living in the Eastern Division, esp. Fort Greene.
It is a testament to the enforcement of fair housing laws, which prevent whites from keeping out minorities, and to falling crime, which makes whites more comfortable in minority neighborhoods.]
Ever-increasing housing costs in "better" neighborhoods also play a part. I would imagine that more and more white are willing to consider traditionally minority neighborhoods because they tend to be more affordable (though even that's probably changing - I'll bet there are no bargains in Stuyvesant Heights). Now, what's hard to figure out is whether these "urban pioneers" would still be willing to move to Ft. Greene et al even if crime rates remained high. My guess is that the phenomenon would still exist, money being a powerful motivator, but not to anything like the current extent.
Overall, Yuppies have not invaded Ft. Greene. However, it is a Buppie mecca. Trendy coffee bars, gift shops and Afro-Carribean restaurants abound in Ft. Greene. The reason the Yuppies have not been able to gain a foothold there is that that particular neighborhood is similar to Brooklyn Heights in that it is largely controlled by "old money" factions. This means two or three generations of folk -- black and white alike -- tend to make up the vast majority of Fort Greeners. Those brownstones and rowhouses are so spacious and well-maintained that the real estate turnover is very low there. Hence no real gentrification.
Larry: I rode the #3 train last summer and remember stops along the way like Rockaway, Livonia, Junius, etc. That wasn't exactly a white haven, but things are a lot better all around---that is, if things were bad before. I don;t know that but I didn;t encounter one unpleasant anti-white racial incident while traveling on trains with African-Americans. Not one. In fact, when I rode the #4 train into Utica and transferred tothe #3, the only white on board was me. The people to a person were great and friendly. I have been lucky in that I have always had great relations with African-Americans. I enjoy their company and feel relaxed around them. Maybe we give off positive vibes. I can tell you this, you treat people decently and you will get treated the same way. Oh sure, there are a few bigots that don;t like whites, but it;s the other way around, too. The devil with those types. I thoroughly enjoyed my trip to New York and reveled in the people I met. It was a great experience last summer.
Welcome to my part of town. I hope you enjoyed your ride on the 3 line to New Lots........
3TM
I also saw a white male get off at Saratoga..... One day during the summer, I took a trip to CI and saw a white male on the 3 at Penn Av. It look like he was doing some railfanning because he was trying to get to the railfan window but I beat him to it...... Was it anybody from SubTalk??????
3TM
3Train Mike: When in the summer was it and what did he look like? It could have been me.
It was a Sat evening. The male had blond hair and glasses........
3TM
I'll probably get off at Livonia & Pennsylvania sometime in the future. I want to photograph a Fotunoff's sign embedded in the sidewalk for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Where is this sign? Waht day are you coming to the area? Maybe we can meet up and take pics together?
3TM
Where is this sign? What day are you coming to the area? Maybe we can meet up and take pics together?
3TM
The original Fortunofff's was on that corner. I'm told there's still a sign on the sidewalk.
Maybe I can check tomorrow morning heading upstairs to the subway.......
3TM
I walked down Fulton from Crescent St to Alabama Ave. in October looking for Forgotten scenes. No problemos.
Kevin did you find anything interesting?
BTW, while I had Fausser's book out (I wonder if the price at ebay passed $50?), I decided to track down where I had read the piece that mentioned why Linden Blvd. was made to bend north into Hegeman Ave. I recall that the widths of the railroad crossings over there was somehow involved. I found the paragraph and have retyped it below:
'In 1932 a small portion of the Canarsie line was rebuilt in conjunction with the building of Linden Blvd. When originally laid out the boulevard was supposed to cross the Canarsie line at DeWitt Ave. However, this alignment would require tunneling under the Long Island Railroad's multi-track New Lots classification yard. It was decided to change the route to Hegeman Ave. where the Long Island was only five tracks wide....'
That's the whole enchilada, as they say. Interesting, huh?
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Kevin did you find anything interesting? <<<
There is a very old blue and white BMT Subway sign at the stairwell of the Alabama Ave station on the south side of Fulton St. I also found a very old ad for a wax company on a wood frame building on the north side of Fulton.
>>>BTW, while I had Fausser's book out (I wonder if the price at ebay passed $50?)<<<
The bidding is now up over $100 and needless to say, I'm staying out of it.
So, now we know that Linden in that part of town dates to 1932. Before that, it was called Vienna Avenue and was in a swampy area, probably with a few farms around and not much else.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There is a very old blue and white BMT Subway sign at the stairwell of the Alabama Ave station on the south side of Fulton St.
Is it a BMT sign or a BRT sign? What does it read?
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"BMT Lines." Looks 1940s vintage.
I heard that Linden Blvd. at different points had different street names. Supposedly several different roads/streets were condensed to create the modern Linden Blvd (going east past the Kings Highway/Remsen Ave. intersection).
PS: Kevin, if I find a vendor who has Fausser's Canarsie book at a reasonable price ($25-$30) would you want me to pick it up for you?
Doug aka BMTman
>>>PS: Kevin, if I find a vendor who has Fausser's Canarsie book at a reasonable price ($25-$30) would
you want me to pick it up for you?<<<
Absolutely!
Linden Blvd. in St Albans was originally called Central Ave.
I should do a page on Linden Blvd, the most unusual lengthy street in NYC.
And that makes HOW many different Central Avenues in Queens?
>>>And that makes HOW many different Central Avenues in Queens? <<<
One in Far Rock and one in Glendale. Brooklyn has one in Ridgewood, a couple of blocks from the Queens line.
wwww.forgotten-ny.com
Was the section between Remsen Avenue and Flatbush Avenue called Caton Avenue or Willmohr Avenue?
No. It was actually called Linden Ave. back in the 'ol days. I believe when the wider, and larger section -- starting at KingsHwy & Remsen going east -- was built around 1932 and was renamed Linden Blvd. since the street was widdened to resemble a "cheaper version" of the Grand Concourse & Eastern Parkway (complete with service roads in each direction).
Once Linden merges with the Conduit (southbound), it re-starts in Queens, but as a normal sized residential-type street.
I think Kevin "Forgotten-NY" Walsh is more of an expert on this subject. (Hey Kevin -- you REALLY DO need to create a special page just on Linden Blvd. after all!)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>I think Kevin "Forgotten-NY" Walsh is more of an expert on this subject. (Hey Kevin -- you REALLY
DO need to create a special page just on Linden Blvd. after all!) <<<
I have pictures of Linden Blvd. in its dead-end alley permutations on my Queens Alleys page. I will need to get pictures of it in its other guises.
It takes more forms than The Alien.
One of the problems,as you state is the 'nature of the line'. The MTA has this "one car fits all" mentality;not like the old days when the BMT was smart enough to use articulated cars on the Canarsie line ( i.e. the old Multis) those suckers supposedly could handle the curves there safely at a faster speed....
[What you do not say is what time you passed East NY Yard. Trains are stored there during off-peak hours for use during peak service needs. Also, what you don't seem to understand is that you don't walk into a showroom and pick out subway cars from a display or catalog. The lead time on a new subway car can be as much as 3-5 years. Right now there is a projected shortage of 140 cars in the B division that will be needed for the extended 'Q' service in 2001.
The congestion on the 'L' line is due to 3 things.
(a) The revitalization of the areas served by the lines.
(b) Creation of thousands of new jobs in Manhattan.
(c) The actual age and physical characteristics of the L line limit service increases.]
Steve, maybe you can explain to me why the MTA doesn't mothball its last generation of cars and buses to prevent shortages like this one, or the Grumman Flexible fiasco.
Steve, maybe you can explain to me why the MTA doesn't mothball its last generation of cars and buses to prevent shortages like this one, or the Grumman Flexible fiasco.
That's what the TA should have done with the R-27/30's, but you know haw scrap-happy the TA is.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Wow! Hot topic! There used to be a question on the dispatcher's
test to the effect of: If you have a line in which it takes two
hours round trip, including relay time, how many trains, minimum,
do you need to maintain a ten minute headway? Ans: 12
If you are trying to make a 3 minute headway and you add 12 minutes
to the round trip time because the trains are running slower
then you need 4 more trains.
The TA engineered itself into a corner. They slowed down the
fleet adding to the cars requirement, and at the same time they
created huge ridership demand with Metrocard.
Even with the increase in the fleet size that is planned, it is
questionable if that will translate linearly to added passenger
carrying capacity per track. Each line has a maximum trains/hour
capacity which is based on acceleration and braking curves, signal
block distances, and most heavily, dwell time. I'm sure the folks
at OpPlan have done the math.
[Wow! Hot topic! There used to be a question on the dispatcher's
test to the effect of: If you have a line in which it takes two
hours round trip, including relay time, how many trains, minimum,
do you need to maintain a ten minute headway? Ans: 12
If you are trying to make a 3 minute headway and you add 12 minutes
to the round trip time because the trains are running slower
then you need 4 more trains. ]
I think we have a problem!
First example (above): Round trip time is 120 minutes; headway is 10 minutes; this gives: 120(minutes/cycle) / 10(minutes/train) = 12 (trains/cycle)
Second example (above): Round trip time is 120 + 12 = 132 minutes; headway is 3 minutes; this gives: 132 / 3 = 44 trains
Third example: Round trip time is still 120 minutes; headway is 3 minutes; this gives: 120 / 3 = 40 trains.
Fourth example: Round trim time is 132 minutes; headway is back to 10 minutes; this gives 132 / 10 = 13.2 ==> 14 trains
You have possibly changed 2 variables (round trip time and headway) to make a comparison on the effects of round trip time. Increasing round trip time by 10% (120 to 132 minutes) results in a 10% increase in the number of trains required to maintain the service. This means a increase of 1.2 trains at 10 minute headway and 4 trains at 4 minute headways.
I think we have a problem!
You have possibly changed 2 variables (round trip time and headway) to make a comparison on
the effects of round trip time. Increasing round trip time by 10% (120 to 132 minutes) results in a
10% increase in the number of trains required to maintain the service. This means a increase of
1.2 trains at 10 minute headway and 4 trains at 4 minute headways.
Nah, we don't have a problem; you misunderstood my original post. I said:If you are trying to make a 3 minute headway and you add 12 minutes
to the round trip time because the trains are running slower
then you need 4 more trains.
I'm not comparing 10 minute headways to 3 minute headways. That's
not the issue. This thread was about rush hour capacity.
Here's the formula: Let T be the number of trains required, let
R be the round trip (cycle) time, and let H be the headway
T=R/H
If you want to keep the headway constant (e.g. 3 minutes) but
you increase R by A additional minutes, then
T2=(R+A)/H = T + A/H
So adding A minutes to the cycle time adds A/H trains to the
requirement. If H is 3 then adding 12 minutes means 4 trains.
If H is 10, then 12 minutes is only 1.2 trains. Simple algebra
Jeff my friend. You are one of the few people who not only understands what I try to tell people but has the credentials to back it up. Thank you for not being an apologist for the incompetent fools at the TA.
(Track capacity problem on the L)
Track capacity may be a problem on the Lex and the Queens Blvd express, and may be becomming a problem due to the deterioration of the Manhattan Bridge, but there is plenty of it elsewhere. TA decisions may have reduced maximum trains per hour from 35 or 40 to 20 ro 25, but the L only has 15 trains per hour at peak.
Aside from those three cases, the problem at rush hour is a shortage of cars and workers. The problem off peak is just a labor issue.
Perhaps can't they just speed up the trains then they can have more of them. After all, it's supposed to be "rapid" transit, isn't it?
There is a shortage of crews and equipment, both deliberately engineered by the TA. But there is no problem off peak. So if there's no problem where's the labor issue?
(Problem off peak -- what's the labor issue?)
Not enough crews, I'd guess. They've got the cars. If they were willing to hire the people, there is no reason not to run more trains.
Williamsburg's emergence as a hot new neighborhood doesn't have a huge impact on L overcrowding. The kids getting on at Bedford merely tamp down already-existing crowds. It's stuffed in there by the time trains get to Grand or Montrose.
When the Williamsburg Bridge was closed, the L became an accidental paradise. You could barely open your newspaper on the platform before a train whipped into the station. The rush-hour crowding was humane and reasonable for a change.
-Daniel Casey
[When the Williamsburg Bridge was closed, the L became an accidental paradise. You could barely open your newspaper on the platform before a train whipped into the station. The rush-hour crowding was humane and reasonable for a change]
Perhaps the reason that the L is crowded so much now is that the Willy B closure made many people realize that the L train gets to Manhattan just as fast than the A, J and Z do, despite no express or skip-stop service.
"Perhaps the reason that the L is crowded so much now is that the Willy B closure made many people realize that the L train gets to Manhattan just as fast than the A, J and Z do, despite no express or skip-stop service."
Does anyone know how crowded the J/M/Z during rush hour are? Anyway, I don't really know about that (somewhat in disagreement). Since the A is the express, I assume it's the fastest, with the C local close behind. The J/M/Z is a far second because of the williamburg bridge (who know's why it still travel slow through there?). And the L is last, because of all those curves along the route west of bwy e. ny.
N Broadway Line
The J,M and Z lines are running at about the same levels they were before the bridge closed. Crowded, but not as bad as other lines.
The L is a faster route into Manhattan becuase it doesn't get slowed up by the Willy B, or that grade crossing at Myrtle Ave. However, express/skip-stop service basically negates that effect.
Then, ChrisR, how can we convince the TA to institute improve service on the J/M/Z lines? And can service be speed up on Willamburg bridge?
N Broadway Line
You can't. J/M/Z service is about as good as it can be.
There are two drawbacks when it comes to bridge crossings - and this applies to both bridges. First, the train is ascending a grade, so naturally speed is compromised. Then, on the downhill side, the train has to be held back to prevent it from going out of control. IMHO, the grades on the Williamsburg Bridge don't seem to be as steep as those on the Manhattan Bridge.
[Perhaps the reason that the L is crowded so much now is that the Willy B closure made many people realize that the L train gets to Manhattan just as fast than the A, J and Z do, despite no express or skip-stop service.]
Another virtue of the L is that it offers direct connections to all major trunk lines in Manhattan, except for the Sixth Avenue expresses.
"Another virtue of the L is that it offers direct connections to all major trunk lines in Manhattan, except for the Sixth Avenue
expresses. "
True.
N Broadway Line
I think what's been said is true -- a lot of J riders found out the L was better. Virtually all Broadway Line passengers are in walking distance of the L, G, or A/C. Personally, I think they could get rid of the Broadway Line, if it were not for three things:
1) The G doesn't run through Manhattan -- if it ran in a loop, it would be a good replacement for the J/Z/M in inner areas.
2) The area beyond Broadway Junction doesn't hook into the L. It would have to be hooked up.
3) "The Well" a really poor area around Broadway and Kossuth -- is beyond walking distance from the other lines.
If service is upgraded on the other lines, more people will use them, and fewer will use the Broadway Line. If Broadway Line service is then cut, the process will continue. Perhaps the Broadway Line could be converted to light rail.
MTA,
Here's a list of recommendations for reducing over crowding on the A, C, E, and L lines:
1) replace the center track; allowing express service from Sutphin Blvd or Broadway Eastern Parkway.
1A) from Cypress Hills, a seperate route should be created using Jamaica Avenue into Broadway Eastern Parkway. This will greatly reduce over crowding on the E line for financial district riders.
1B) Create a special express service which by passes certain stations (less congested station - Maybe a J/Z rider could pinpoint those stations) on the local track. For instance, stops could be Sutphin Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd, Crescent Street, Broadway Eastern Parkway, Myrtle Avenue, Essex Street, Chambers Street, Fulton Street and Broad Street.
2) Fix the sharp curves after Crescent Street and before Cypress Hills so that trains can operate faster. And other slow areas.
3) Creating express service from Broadway Eastern Parkway to Essex Street will greatly reduce the passenger flow on the A/C/L lines. But, this must included speeding up service over the Williamsburg Bridge and giving J/Z priority over the M.
3) Run J/Z at a 3 minute heyway instead of a four minute heyway. This will reduce the waiting time to 6 minutes for some stations instead of 8 minutes.
Thank You,
N Broadway Linexpress
You guys keep saying the the MTA should do this or that, all and good, but 2 questions. Who is going to pay for it. You bitch if they say the are going to raise the fare 10 cents, or gas tax a nickle or sales tax 1 pct to pay for transit. The Fed Govt Gravy Train for transit is over. The Hicks in Bumfck Missouri don t have 2 hoots for what is happening to NYC. GET REAL
Perhaps if we didn't have to spend 2 1/2 times as much as the U.S. average as a share of our income to support Medicaid, and upstate and the suburbs didn't have 30 percent more local government payroll (as a share of total payroll) than the U.S. average, we could do better than spending 40 percent less (again as a share of income) on transportation.
We've got the income, others have their mitts on the money.
The Eastern Division has three problems -- the G can't run to Manhattan, the L doesn't have a third express track, and the Jamaica Ave line curves around and doesn't hook into the L line. All three could be solved with short connections if there was political will -- and the Broadway El could be eliminated, a big cost savings. But in NY, these projects would cost three times what they should and, as I said, the money goes elsewhere.
The G is part of the Eastern Division??? I thought it was IND??????
3TM
The G is part of the Eastern Division??? I thought it was IND??????
3TM
It is, but the TA doesn't class anything by BMT or IND anymore. Its all "B-Division".
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Perhaps if we didn't have to spend 2 1/2 times as much as the U.S. average as a share of our income to support Medicaid, and upstate and the suburbs didn't have 30 percent more local government payroll (as a share of total payroll) than the U.S. average, we could do better than spending 40 percent less (again as a share of income) on transportation.
We've got the income, others have their mitts on the money.
The Eastern Division has three problems -- the G can't run to Manhattan, the L doesn't have a third express track, and the Jamaica Ave line curves around and doesn't hook into the L line. All three could be solved with short connections if there was political will -- and the Broadway El could be eliminated, a big cost savings. But in NY, these projects would cost three times what they should and, as I said, the money goes elsewhere.]
It's worth noting that the regional economy is something like $800 billion/year. Manhattan's GRP alone is on the order of $100 billion/year. The City government spends something like $37 billion dollars a year, of which perhaps $6 billion goes to social services, and the State spends more. New York State spends $1 billion/year *just to educate doctors*--twice as many doctors as the state actually uses.
It would take $1 billion/year to build the RPA's Metrolink proposal, which includes a full four track Second Avenue subway extending into the Brooklyn and the Bronx. For $2 billion/year we could build a dream system that would take your breath away, with all the missing pieces filled in. A regional asset, something that attracts business rather than driving it away. Even at government prices.
We could build what we need by taking the money from things that the City and State *don't* need, and of that there are plenty.
Anything will do. If the MTA doesn't retire cars when the R142 and R143 arrive and they increase service, things will run alot better. When I take the E and 6 from Penn Station to the upper east side, there is infequent service and crowded and slow trains. Often, we are stopped waiting for the F because I noticed that middays (not sure about other times), the E came in and as soon as it left, the F arrived meaning on Queens Boulevard, express trains were right behind each other and there were probably long waits.
Almost 1300 R-142s will be delivered.
There is NO WAY no cars will be scrapped as a result of this.
[If service is upgraded on the other lines, more people will use them,
and fewer will use the Broadway Line. If Broadway Line service is then
cut, the process will continue. Perhaps the Broadway Line could be
converted to light rail.]
Why on earth would you want to use light rail when we already have heavy rail in place. In other words, you want to spend money to decrease the capacity of a railroad (unless they are now running 10 car light rail trains) AND make the trains have to compete with street traffic. So basically you want to degrade subway tracks in Manhattan, the place where transit is the most crowded. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Why on earth would you want to use light rail when we already have heavy rail in place. In other words, you want to spend money to decrease the capacity of a railroad (unless they are now running 10 car light rail trains) AND make the trains have to compete with street traffic. So basically you want to degrade subway tracks in Manhattan, the place where transit is the most crowded. It just doesn't make sense to me.
That's all I've been reading on this BB lately is proposals to eliminate and/or cut rapid transit service, and these people consider themselves railfans. A railfan is someone that is not only interested in trains, but someone who promotes rail lines - in other words, "pro-transit", not anti-transit. A railfan is always looking for ways to increase rail service, not decrease it. Look at Europe, where the rails are their lifeblood.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
"[If service is upgraded on the other lines, more people will use them, and fewer will use the Broadway Line. If Broadway Line service is then cut, the process will continue. Perhaps the Broadway Line could be converted to light rail.]"
My proposal talks about expanding Broadway El service, not eliminating it. Whoever wrote that post (above) obviously do not like the J/M/Z for good reason - it's slow. However, I think my plan is more suitable in addressing the over crowding situation then others who wrote on the topic.
Any suggestions?????
N Broadway Express
[I think what's been said is true -- a lot of J riders found out the L was better. Virtually all Broadway Line passengers are in walking distance of the L, G, or A/C. Personally, I think they could get rid of the Broadway Line, if it were not for three things:
1) The G doesn't run through Manhattan -- if it ran in a loop, it would be a good replacement for the J/Z/M in inner areas.
2) The area beyond Broadway Junction doesn't hook into the L. It would have to be hooked up.
3) "The Well" a really poor area around Broadway and Kossuth -- is beyond walking distance from the other lines.
If service is upgraded on the other lines, more people will use them, and fewer will use the Broadway Line. If Broadway Line service is then cut, the process will continue. Perhaps the Broadway Line could be converted to light rail.]
As I understand it, the idea is that the Broadway line will take load off the E & F once the 63rd St. tunnel is connected to Queensboro Plaza. Naturally, it won't work very well, because people won't change trains and it's course in Manhattan is too perverse. And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the 2nd Avenue spur or the Rockaway line.
But it seems to me there are lots of interesting services that could be offered at little cost, though. That high speed, high amenity service from LGA to a downtown air terminal at the WTC, plus the regular LGA service you've been pushing. Airtrain thru service via converted Atlantic Avenue LIRR tracks to the same terminal. (Not only could passengers transfer at the WTC between trains to the two New York airports, they could take a direct train to EWR thru the adjacent PATH tunnel. With a bit of work, all three airports could actually come to a single terminal.) Free LIRR transfers at Jamaica to high amenity superexpress service to solve the downtown access problem for LIRR passengers. Ditto for a thru express from Atlantic Avenue onto the express tracks for Brooklynites, and for Queens passengers downtown. And how about a spur into Penn, for a cross-platform transfer to a high amenity superexpress heading to the downtown business district?
Drawbacks I can think of offhand: the express tracks head to Brooklyn too soon to provide these services in an obvious way. The express and local tracks would have to be swapped at Canal Street, and as far as I know that's in the works anyway, but that would deprive Brooklynites of superexpress access to Midtown, and the Canal Street transfer is a long, clumsy one. Who would want to take a local from Brooklyn to Canal Street, when the other lines zip right up? Then too, the line is hopelessly slow coming in from Brooklyn.
"[I think what's been said is true -- a lot of J riders found out the L was better. Virtually all Broadway Line passengers are in walking distance of the L, G, or A/C.
Personally, I think they could get rid of the Broadway Line, if it were not for three things:
1) The G doesn't run through Manhattan -- if it ran in a loop, it would be a good replacement for the J/Z/M in inner areas.
2) The area beyond Broadway Junction doesn't hook into the L. It would have to be hooked up.
3) "The Well" a really poor area around Broadway and Kossuth -- is beyond walking distance from the other lines.
If service is upgraded on the other lines, more people will use them, and fewer will use the Broadway Line. If Broadway Line service is then cut, the process will
continue. Perhaps the Broadway Line could be converted to light rail.]
Is there any hope for the J/M/Z lines in the future BMT? Or, will it go the way of the third/second Avenue Elevated lines of the past?
N BROADWAY EXPRESS
[Is there any hope for the J/M/Z lines in the future BMT? Or, will it go the way of the third/second Avenue Elevated lines of the past?]
That was Larry's comment, so I'll defer to him.
If there is any attempt to eliminate the Sea Beach, I will personally go to war with them---whoever they are? Stop suggesting such blasphemy.
If there is any attempt to eliminate the Sea Beach, I will personally go to war with them---whoever they are? Stop suggesting such blasphemy.
I feel the same way. I'll go to war with anybody that suggests removing 1 inch of steel girder from any el. This transit blasphemy has to stop.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I doubt it. Not after all the $$$ that was sunk into the Archer Ave. line. Still, the TA has been known to do things which make no sense in the past....
I think you can trim back the J and keep the stretch between East New York and Parsons-Archer provided you could make the L more efficient and put more trains on it. It'd be hard because you'd have to keep a short spur of the M between Metropolitan Ave and Wyckoff. Seems to me the J and L pretty much duplicate, though you'd have to beef up bus service on Broadway and on the crosstown routes like the B52 and B38.
There are a couple of ways to route the G into Manhattan if you wanted, aren't there, at Hoyt /Schermerhorn, Bergen & Carroll St or at the new connector at Queens Plaza? I'm told G service will be cut to Court Sq and they'll let the R carry the local load in Queens.
www.forgotten-ny.com
One of the 6th Avenue Lines (the "F" or "Q") will be the Queens Blvd. local once the 63rd Street Connection opens. You all can forget the G going in to Queens, or the Broadway BMT el being razed. I will say that the thought of using the Chrystie Street connection for service to Midtown is intriguing. The only problem would be to find a terminal in Manhattan.
Sorry guys I meant you can forget about the G going into Manhattan. My mistake.
If riders are migrating from the J/M/Z lines then can some cars do the same to improve service on the L?
Another question is: can half the L trains originate at or terminate at Broadway Junction or even Myrtle Avenue (if that is useful). When services were increased for the Willy Bridge closure, detailed schedules then posted on the Web revealed numbers of extra trains which commenced or terminated at those points in rush hours.
If this were done, the shorter journey times on those runs could maybe offer a higher frequency on the inner portions of the L line, if that is where it is needed.
Most trains in NY work from the end to end of a line and there are surely times/places where the services so offered are a little more than needed. No doubt customers would require education in looking at train destination signs if more short turn-backs were provided.
Another point: is on-time running, train cancellations on the L any different from other lines. If so, is there congestion due to this rather than the services offered. Present schedules on the web indicate frequencies '3-5' minutes. Detailed schedules prior to May seem to indicate it was more like '4-6' minutes.
Hoping this discussion can assist you and nice to see constructive comments coming from 'SubTalk.
If there were stations such as Whitehall St. along the L, with a middle track, you could turn trains back. As it is, it would impede traffic. Atlantic Ave. would be an option, if they were to leave an additional track or two in place.
So does the J.
But what about the congestion going into 8th Av? I saw this alot, even the time I went that way after the bridge reopened, and traffic starts slowing down at the end of the tunnel.
Is this only 8:30-9, when they start dispathing the trains out of 8th at increased headways? We ould be stuck in 1st or 3rd Av, and you would see nothing going the other way for several minutes at a time. It is so silly to do that at a 2 track terminal in the AA rush. They should connect the layup track between 6th and 8th so a train can pull into and out of it without going into 8th Av. Then if there's congestion, they can dump passengers out of some trains at 6th Av, then relay to the track, and then back to the yard, or where ever if they must have a longer headway for Brooklyn bound service.
Bravo! Reconnecting the layup track to 6th Ave would cost less than an R143. However, to be fully effective you should have 1 of 3 trains turn at 6th Ave. This would allow you to increase capacity to an excess of 30 trains per hour without having backups at 8th Ave. Also no CBTC would be required.
I think the 14th Street tubes limit L service to a minimum 7 minute headway. This is what's causing the problems. Another thing is that many people who shifted to the L line during the Willy B repair project have stayed on the L.
I know this sounds cruel, but one way to alleviate crowding is to close the transfer with the G at Lorimer St. Let people from Greenpoint transfer to the E and F at Court Sq.
I know this sounds cruel, but one way to alleviate crowding is to close the transfer with the G at Lorimer St. Let people from Greenpoint transfer to the E and F at Court Sq.
That is cruel. What about Greenpoint residents that want to go to 14th St., or even south of 14th St.? They would have to go north to Court Sq., go into Manhattan, then go south again. No. I think that an excellent way to relieve overcrowding would be to increase service, not decrease it. Open a new transfer point between the IND Crosstown Line and the Broadway El at Lorimer and Broadway. I don't know how close or far these 2 stations are from each other, but I'm sure something can be done to facilitate a transfer.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
There was a Metrocard transfer there during the bridge closure. They should have kept it.
There was a Metrocard transfer there during the bridge closure. They should have kept it.
Just another example of the TA leaping before they look and burning bridges.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The Broadway station on the G is located on Union Ave, which is right between the Fushing Ave. and Lorimer St. stations on the Bway el. A connection here would require some serious construction to build a connecting tunnel or elevated structure (like the new one at Franklin/Fulton). However, it might be worth it, as it provides another method for G riders to access lower Manhattan, other than going to Hoyt St. for the A/C, or transferring at the dangerously overcrowded Union Sq. station for the 4/5/6 and N/R.
And the Broadway G station is one of the worst IND stations aound. It's falling apart and water leakage has given it a nasty smell.
And the Broadway G station is one of the worst IND stations aound. It's falling apart and water leakage has given it a nasty smell.
With all the station rehabbing going on, why don't they do the stations that are in the most desparate need, like Broadway on the G, or Chambers St. on the J?
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[With all the station rehabbing going on, why don't they do the stations that are in the most desparate need, like Broadway on the G, or Chambers St. on the J?]
Not to sound *too* cynical or anything, but I suspect it might be due to the fact that neither tourists, suburban commuters nor affluent Manhattanites are likely to use either station, given their locations and routes.
Not to sound *too* cynical or anything, but I suspect it might be due to the fact that neither tourists, suburban commuters nor affluent Manhattanites are likely to use either station, given their locations and routes.
In other words, let the poor be damned.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[In other words, let the poor be damned.]
Well, not necessarily. The poor benefit from a heavily subsidized service that provides more economical transportation than the automobiles that would be required in other parts of the country. The middle class people who use the renovated stations contribute more in taxes. And anything that makes the City more attractive to businesses, tourists, and the middle class benefits the economy, and so helps the poor through a better job market and higher tax revenues.
If you're going to point an accusatory finger regarding services to the poor, it seems to me that suburban and rural communities that bleed taxes from City businesses, leave the poor to be supported by local residents thus driving out the economic activity that could benefit them, and exclude the poor through zoning regulations deserve much more blame.
Well, not necessarily. The poor benefit from a heavily subsidized service that provides more economical transportation than the
automobiles that would be required in other parts of the country. The middle class people who use the renovated stations
contribute more in taxes. And anything that makes the City more attractive to businesses, tourists, and the middle class benefits
the economy, and so helps the poor through a better job market and higher tax revenues.
In other words, you're one who believes in trickle-down. At the Broadway station on the Crosstown Line, the only thing that trickles down is water from the leak.
What you're trying to say is make the City look nice for the tourists, and give those with the bucks all the nice stuff, while the economically disadvantaged get all the s--t. The poor deserve decent subway stations just as much as the rich and the tourists do.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[In other words, you're one who believes in trickle-down. At the Broadway station on the Crosstown Line, the only thing that trickles down is water from the leak.
What you're trying to say is make the City look nice for the tourists, and give those with the bucks all the nice stuff, while the economically disadvantaged get all the s--t. The poor deserve decent subway stations just as much as the rich and the tourists do.]
No, I said nothing about trickle-down economics, which whatever its merits was promulgated on the Federal level. Some people seem to think that muncipal government is a perpetual motion machine, but it's fairly obvious that the City's ability to provide social and other services to the poor depends on its tax base, and that that depends on business and the people who pay the lion's share of the taxes, the middle class; and that the best--I would even go so far as to say the only really effective--way to lift people out of poverty is to give them jobs, and that's something business does.
As to whether the poor "deserve" something or not, I think that's best duked out between Karl Marx and Adam Smith--I don't propose to settle it here. I'll note only that our society isn't based on a presumption of economic equality; that, paradoxically, the inequalities of capitalism seem to benefit the majority of a nation's citizens; and that I'm a bit bothered by the suggestion that doing something for middle class taxpayers is somehow immoral.
As to whether the poor "deserve" something or not, I think that's best duked out between Karl Marx and Adam Smith--I don't propose to settle it here. I'll note only that our society isn't based on a presumption of economic equality; that, paradoxically, the inequalities of capitalism seem to benefit the majority of a nation's citizens; and that I'm a bit bothered by the suggestion that doing something for middle class taxpayers is somehow immoral.
Stations that receive priority when it comes to rehabing should be the stations that need it the most, not based on the tax bracket of those who use it. That is my point, in a nutshell. Broadway on the IND Crosstown needs it, desparately.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
[Stations that receive priority when it comes to rehabing should be the stations that need it the most, not based on the tax bracket of those who use it. That is my point, in a nutshell. Broadway on the IND Crosstown needs it, desparately.]
It's not just a matter of income, but of usage as well. Would you spend the same money to renovate the 225th Street station that you would for Times Square?
>>>The middle class people who use the renovated stations contribute more in taxes. And anything that
makes the City more attractive to businesses, tourists, and the middle class benefits the economy, and so
helps the poor through a better job market and higher tax revenues. <<<
Seems to me you're giving the MTA an out for allowing decrepit stations on the G and J fall apart. The people who use those stations don't contribute as much in taxes, but they deserve the same amenities for their hard earned $1.50 as do the yuppies getting on and off at Wall Street.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Seems to me you're giving the MTA an out for allowing decrepit stations on the G and J fall apart. The people who use those stations don't contribute as much in taxes, but they deserve the same amenities for their hard earned $1.50 as do the yuppies getting on and off at Wall Street.]
If the fair covered the actual cost of a ride, that would certainly be true, but that $1.50 doesn't even begin to cover the cost of a ride. It's a heavily subsidized service, and it's the middle class and the yuppies who are paying for that subsidy.
That being said, I agree that the MTA, like most government operations, is stunningly inefficient. Decisions are made on the basis of the tawdriest political concerns--just look at the recent threat by upstate Republicans to veto the capital budget if an equal amount of money doesn't go into roads. But I don't think anything short of privatization can do much about that--though from what I understand NJT does a much better job, so there's certainly room for improvement under the government umbrella.
>>>just look at the recent threat by
upstate Republicans to veto the capital budget if an equal amount of money doesn't go into roads. <<<
That was glossed over in the press and even by the Straphangers group, who cling to the pipe dream of a full-length Second Avenue subway. But the important point was that once again, the suburbanites and upstaters have the power to trump the needs of the subway riders of NYC. Pataki doesn't give a !@#$, but I never voted for him.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[That was glossed over in the press and even by the Straphangers group, who cling to the pipe dream of a full-length Second Avenue subway. But the important point was that once again, the suburbanites and upstaters have the power to trump the needs of the subway riders of NYC. Pataki doesn't give a !@#$, but I never voted for him.]
Pretty much sums up the problem. Pataki concluded that he wasn't going to win NYC no matter what, and being Pataki, proceeded to give the City the shaft, and Giuliani won't fight it because he needs the support of the Republican machine right now. As G said about the 2nd Avenue Subway, it ain't gonna happen.
Not to sound *too* cynical or anything, but I suspect it might be due to the fact that neither tourists, suburban commuters nor affluent Manhattanites are likely to use either station, given their locations and routes.
Explain Chambers Street then. It is used by tourists, suburban commuters and affluent Manhattanites, and it's in the worst condition I've ever seen.
I wonder what the formula is for assigning station rehabilitation projects.
--Mark
Te J/M portion of Chambers St never gets used by anyone but poor folks from Williamsburgh, Bushwick and East NY, plus Woodhaven, Richmond Hill, Jamaica, and Ridgewood in Queens. The 4/5/6 portion is used by tourists, affluent suburbanites, etc. Notice which part of that complex was rebuilt and what part was left to rot ...
There actually IS a formula. It's based on a combination of factors, including station condition and ridership levels. (No, I don't have details on how much weight is given to what factors.)
David
[I wonder what the formula is for assigning station rehabilitation projects.]
Eh wot? If they don't do something about Chambers Street SOON, they may be looking at the "WEIGHT" of the station ceiling as it sits flush on the platforms. Then who'll be left scratching their heads saying "I told you so". The columns are sprung there - rust has got in behind the white tile. They should at least pull down the ceiling where it has completely eroded and stabilize what is left. Then there's the entire issue of "Water, water everywhere..." - how do you stop THAT?
Wayne
Never mind everybody-out-and-push. In the case of Chambers St., it's more like man-the-oars!
Speaking of Broadway, is the water seepage wreaking any havoc on the S. 4th St. shell upstairs?
Never mind everybody-out-and-push. In the case of Chambers St., it's more like man-the-oars!
No, its more like "Abandon Ship"!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I keep on hearing how bad the Chambers St station is. Last week I was in it for the 1rst time since I went to Pace University (Just above it) in the early 70's. I expected it to be alot worse than it is. Although its pretty bad, almost like a bad dream) I remember it just as bad back then.
The SARGE-my homepage
My Transit Buff Page
my OUTRAGEOUS COLOR QUIZ
>>>With all the station rehabbing going on, why don't they do the stations that are in the most desparate
need, like Broadway on the G, or Chambers St. on the J?<<<
Because, of course, few yuppies use those stations. Probably there are some in the MTA execs who don't know these stations even exist.
"And the Broadway G station is one of the worst IND stations aound. It's falling apart and water leakage has given it a nasty smell."
Maybe money's can be for both the connection the rehab of that station.
N Broadway Line
[The Broadway station on the G is located on Union Ave, which is right between the Fushing Ave. and Lorimer St. stations on the
Bway el. ]
Don't you mean Lorimer and Hewes Sts?
You're right. Although I don't really know the station order I drive on Bway often and Flusing Av and Lorimer St are both E/O Union Av.
Yes, my mistake. It's are located in between both those stations.
Here's an idea: Demolish the Hewes and Lorimer St. stations and build a new one at Union Ave. Then connect this station to the G train. Hewes St. is ridiculously close to Marcy Ave. anyway.
"I know this sounds cruel, but one way to alleviate crowding is to close the transfer with the G at Lorimer St. Let people from Greenpoint transfer to the E and F at Court Sq."
And subjugate G riders to longer traveling times? No No No... what is needed is a transfer b/t G and J/M/Z lines. That might reduce overcrowding on the L line.
Besides, whatever is causing a 10 minute heyway on this line should be corrected as soon as possible.
N Broadway Line
Actually, the headway on the L during the rush hours is the normal 5-6 minutes. The problems limiting the L train were fixed prior to the Willy B closure.
"I know this sounds cruel, but one way to alleviate crowding is to close the transfer with the G at Lorimer St. Let people from Greenpoint transfer to the E and F at Court Sq."
And burden the overcrowded E/F lines even more?!
N Broadway Line
To all Chicago subtalkers. See your name in lights. I am looking for one or more volunteers to do a station by station of the CTA. See my NYC and Philly pages for guidelines. Forward to Dave Pirmann or myself.
I'll be more than happy to do a station-by-station of the entire CTA system. Hell, I could probably do 90% of the system just from memory. I wouldn't have many photographs but those can be added later. Feel free to contact me via e-mail if you have any questions.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I want to know when R1 to R30 ran on there last day on service & what line? Just post it here.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
While Larry Redbird has exact dates, I know that the R10 disappeared in June 1989, and the R7/R9 disappeared in March of 1977. The R16 was mercifully retired in May 1987. The R21/22 went in October of the same year, and the last R17's were retired in February 1988.
The R-12s left the scene in 1981; the R-14s in late 1984 (I saw a few of them in October of that year). Don't know about the R-15s.
Chances are very few, if any, R-1s made it to 1970. The last prewar A train I rode on, in January of 1970, had a headlight-less first car, so it would have been a number no higher than R-4 466 (467 and up received headlights). I'm looking at my Transit Museum photo right now in which I'm posing as a conductor between 100 and 484, and neither appear to have headlights.
I think all the R1's disappeared when the R44's
showed up in 72. I know the R7 and R9 cars assigned to the Eastern Division were gone in March of 1977,
when they made their last revenue trip on the J
line. I'm sure the R4 and R6 cars were retired as
the R46's came in service.
For the record, the last regular service runs of the R-10's occurred during September, 1989 on the IND "C" line. The final run ever with the fleet happened on Sunday, October 29, 1989 with a farewell "fantrip" with an eight-car train chartered by the E.R.A. over various IND-BMT division routes, including the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, the Archer Avenue lines (both levels) and the 63rd Street Extension line.
-William A. Padron
01/06/2000
.............and Bill Padron has never been the same since !!
Bill Newkirk
The "Stores in Subway Station" got me thinking that all of the Metrocard Vending Machines (MVM) are outside farecontrol (as well as token booths). Sometimes I forget until after the swipe I need a new card and have to wait until my destination to get one but anyway..
The flower shop at 86th St. 4th Ave on the R (Bayridge) is within farecontrol as well as little candy shops like Queensplaza (E,F,G,R)or Court St (4/5). There used to be a bank within farecontrol (one windown outside though) at Court Street (N,M,R/2/3 concourse) that was Crossland Savings (FSB) with their subway banking.
I know the TA rents store space outside fare control in structures they own near the subway stop. I just wonder how much is within fare control and on the outside of it.
What unique things are within farecontrol, as someone posted, with unlimited rides (Funpass, 7/30day) more stuff within farecontrol is not as unaccessable as it used to be.
Heck does the flower delivery man have to pay $1.50 everytime he goes back to the store??
The MRM will be inside fare controls. I'm not sure whether it will have a touch screen or a regular (LCD probably) screen with keypad or buttons on the sides or both (a keypad will be neccessary if they let you enter your own amount for a refill).
No. The official policy is they have to show their vendor pass but the unofficial ( and accepted) practice is to tell the station agent they work for the newsstand (or flower shop) and we will buzz them in. Same goes for delivery persons to stores within the fare control areas.
Either way-they do not have to pay to get to their store.
Another poster remarked of the subway windows for banks. Other stations also had subway teller windows and Times Square BMT mezzanine had an exit that went to the "Ninth Federal Savings".
The late 1950s also had a machine that printed out directions to points of interest in the shuttle area. By 1960-61 it had vanished.
Times Square also had an instant photo machine (pay 25 cents for 4 black and white photos) but it was a casualty of the shuttle fire.
If you liked the little 20 second bit of R9's that I played, you'll love 60 minutes worth of LL R9's that I will be happy to send you free of charge. Act now,and I'll include a Vegematic which slices and dices. Use the Vegematic to shread and tear the print outs of posters who get on your nerves.
Seriously, e-mail me your address and I'll send the tape out today.
This is some kind of test, right?
A government (our government?) is assembling a list of loons far gone enough to listen to 60 minutes of R1-9 sounds, eight?
What message does the tape contains when played backwards? Will the tape be delivered by black helicopters?
I have the tape. It's worth it. Even if heypaul is a government agent collecting information on subway nuts like us (hehehe).
I second the notion wholeheartedly. If you loved the R-1/9s as most of us did, here's your chance to hear them once again, complete with all of the marvelous sounds of theirs. Don't miss it! I give the volume control a healthy nudge on my stereo when playing the tape. All I need now is a subwoofer...
Actually, the tape DOES appear to be playing backwards at one point. The bull and pinion gear sound can be heard descending in pitch all the way down to a deep growl. Those cars never sounded that way as they came to a stop. Chances are heypaul may have had his tape recorder bumped into, which may have dislodged the tape so it was being recorded on the "wrong" track. In other words, the tape was wrong-railing at that point. Rim shot!!
how do i get a copy of this tape??? how much ?????
There are now four or five people here, Chris, Harry, Steve, Bill Cortelyou (joke ) , and subway buff who have the tape. Paul, you are correct in suspecting some intrigue behind the tape's distribution. There are subliminal messages embedded in the tapes that will lead any listeners to buy more popcorn and Coca Cola whenever they can afford to go to the movies.
BTW, I wanted to ask you permission to post some of the sounds of your tape as .WAV files in the nyc.transit newsgroup. I would give you the proper recognition, of course ...
Chris--- that would be great. Any use of the tapes that will bring music to ears of the R9's fans is fine with me.
This may sound like a silly question, but since i'm new here I hope its not too bad. Are ALL the subway cars motor's and have driving controls? And what is the usual car consist of a subway train? Are there still Guards on the subway there as in Toronto which I have visited?
Everything you need is at the Subway FAQ
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/
I steadfastly refuse to 'Please Read'
-Hank
All the cars are motorized, but not all have operating controls.
There are "blind motors" (i.e. motorized, but no controls) in the
R-44 and R-46 car fleets.
I think, and may be wrong, that there have also been some of the R62 or R62A series that have been converted so they don't have controls any more, though they were built with them.
Yes, the trains do still have a conductor (who would be referred to as the "guard" in Canada and possibly U.K., such as the London Underground).
Just for the record, you also had "guards" on the subway. when you had a trainman between each two cars (as on gate cars and before MUDC) the lead trainman was the conductor--all the rest were guards.
On the LIRR (and posibly Metro North (?)) there is just one conductor on the train, the third crew member is a brakeman (though his badge says "assistant conductor"). Extra "conductors" are "collectors").
What does the brakeman do? Shovel coal?
i thought subway cars run off of electric power !!!!!????
You demonstrate your lack of sarcasm detection skills aptly. Congratulations.
Do we really prove anything by getting sarcastic with one another?
Come on, let's lighten up.
Wayne
right on !! i agree lighten up and only be serious about ON TOPIC POSTS ( subjects ) !!!!!!!!!!
right on !! i agree lighten up and only be serious about ON TOPIC POSTS ( subjects ) !!!!!!!!!!
I want to discuss the mating habits of the Medeterranean Fruit Fly, as it applies to rush hour service on the Franklin Shuttle.
Happy Y2K!
Fromakahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
English or African swallow?
What, I don't know that!!
WHOOSH.....
It's probably faster than a certain 75-foot subway car, that's for sure.
It's probably faster than a certain 75-foot subway car, that's for sure.
Gee, I wonder hippo which that one could be!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
You demonstrate your lack of sarcasm detection skills aptly. Congratulations. We also weren't talking about subway cars
STRIKE TWO!!!!!!!!!!
go back to your RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!?????
how about you failing to detect a lack of sincerity in my so called "sorry"
That was the fireman.
On the LIRR:
The engineer runs the train.
The fireman would shovel the coal, but there is no more coal and no more fireman.
The conductor is in charge of the operation of the train and on-board passenger service. He sells/collects tickets and supervises the crew, including the engineer.
The brakeman performs such chores as setting manual switches in yards and other duties in assisting the conductor. He also sells/collects tickets.
Since firemen shovel coal, who puts out the fire?
Since firemen shovel coal, who puts out the fire?
To give a straight answer to a presumably tongue-in-cheek question: also the fireman (dumps the fire when a steam loco is taken out of service).
I was trained as a fireman in the Army. It was an extra duty, like KP, not my main job. Anyway, the chores were very much like a railroad fireman: make a coal fire, bank it, tend it, keep it going at the right level, tend the furnace it was in, and so on.
Now that I come to think of it, since that was a "fireman" I don't know what they called someone who had a hook-and-ladder type fireman job.
Firefighter
A fireman with a fire extinguisher, I suppose. :)
Since firemen shovel coal, who puts out the fire?
The waterboy.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
The R68As that are at the center of the 4 car link don't have controls anymore. They took then out and put a cover over the entire area. I'm not sure about the R68s.
The controllers were removed and the brake stands capped off. That's what they did on the R-62s and R-62As. The cars are also linked using drawbars instead of couplers. Couplers are found only on the ends of 4- and 5-car sets now. There must be a whale of a surplus of couplers and controllers now, I'll bet.
In Australia we also call them guards, and the consist on our double-deck suburbans in Sydney is with an equal number of power cars to trailing cars with most power cars being with the Drivers/Guards Compartment.
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
sheesh sorry
Anthony: With three exceptions the entire fleet consists of motor cars,though not all have engineer's controls. We have double-ended single units,single ended units,married pairs and non-control motors aka blind motors. There are only three trailers on the system. hey are the middle units of each of the three 3-car sets of the R-100B order,# 3002,3005 and 3008.
Subway trains range in length from the two car trains of the Franklin Shuttle to the eleven car trains of the IRT Flushing Line. All IRT lines #1-9 and 42 Street Shuttle use cars that are 51 feet long. All Division B routes (A thru Z) use either 60 foot cars R-32A thru R-42) or 75 foot cars (R-44 thru R-46). There is one six car train of R-110B's which are 67 feet long.
Most trains have a motorman (aka Train Operator) and a conductor. However some shuttle routs use OPTO (One person train operation) either full time or at nights.
I visted your city briefly several years ago and was very impressed with the subway and the Harbourfront LRT Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You forgot, 75 foot cars are 44 thru 68A
Hello,
I just obtained what I was told is a trolley fairbox from an antique dealer going out of business.
It weights about 15+ lb and has a name plate "Electric Service MFg Co" from Philadelphia, PA. When the string is pulled, the unit's two counters increase by one, and a bell rings. The center dial says 10 cents (US). There is one large knob to reset the top counter but not the bottom counter. The bottom counter say 56069 (i.e. $5606.90 in revenue, about $1/2 million in todays $s assuming it is from the 20s)
I am interested in finding more about the unit, where it might have been used, what era it was from, etc. Any reply would be appreciated, email is preferred. I can also forward pictures.
It is probable I will post the device on ebay for sale, if you are interested when I do so, please also email.
With warm regards,
---Steve
Just checked the NJT web site. Like Amtrak they will hold trains at "selected stations" around midnight "until released by an NJ Transit or Amtrak Dispatcher". They do not anticipate problems but they dont want trains stuck in tunnels or on bridges.
They will also have staff at key stations with cell phones, generators and extra locomotives and trains at key locations statewide in case of problems.
As of now, no specific info on the subway or PATH
I heard of a book called Tracks of New York. Is it as good as Peter Dougherty's? His book would be hard to top.
"Tracks of New York" actually came in three volumes. The first one, recently repriNTED BY era, depicts the street trackage of the Metropolitan Street Railway. The second volume depicts the Brooklyn elevateds, and the third volume depicts the Manhattan & Bronx elevateds.
While these works are very good and the efforts of their authors is appreciated, they do not come up to what Peter Dougherty has published, as you surmised.
Actually, having all three of the "Tracks of New York" volumes PLUS Peter's work leaves only the desire to see streetcar track plans the other four boroughs besides Manhattan.
In my opinion it is unfair to compare The ERA's The Tracks of NY with Peter Dougherty's book. The former deals with the past history of NY transit and contains route maps and excellent photos. The latter deals with the current subway system and contains track maps. Both sets are excellent and are must haves.
Oops. Let me be the first to correct myself. The ERA's books do not contain route maps as I previously stated. They contain track maps as does Mr.Dougherty's book. (I guess the title "The TRACKS of NY" should have made that clear. D'uh!) Everything else in my previous post appears to be correct. Dougherty's book is more detailed, with much info on signals.
If you're interested in the current system Mr. Dougherty's book is what you're looking for. If, on the other hand you're looking for historical info, then the ERA books are the ones for you. I've got both and I heartily recommend both to everyone.
While returning home to Brooklyn, I was unfortunately stuck in a bomb scare situation at the 42nd St BDFQ station. This occurred today (Dec 30) at 4:30pm. The word from the police on the scene was that there was a bomb threat. No block tickets were issued (which bothered me), probably because the passageway to the 5th Ave 7 station was still open. Any (semi)official word on this?
ian
Block tickets are issued if there is NO service at a station. You had the 7 so there was service- Sorry!
Well, I understand that. But it would have been easier to leave, rather than take an exremely overcrowded 7 train. It ended up taking about 2 hours to get from there to Kings Highway (N).
ian
Wonder if it turned out to be a canteloupe... Just kidding. I couldn't resist digging up Jerry Stiller's line from the original Pelham movie.
Today I was riding the F train to Manhattan and the conductor said that the next stop would be Parsons Blvd. not 169 st from 179 st.Also it also skipped Sutphin Blvd. and Van Wyck Blvd.Is the Hillside Ave. line express tracks being tested or what?
There was probably some disruption in F local service between Van Wyck Blvd and Union Turnpike. Those express tracks are used everyday. The Manhattan bound track is used to go to Jamaica yard, and the 179 St bound express track is used to store trains overnight and on weekends.
They run an occasional unannounced special express from 179th in the morning. I have picked it up at Union Tpke. It usually gets there about 7:30 A.M. Every now and then, they also start an F at 71st - Continental Ave. Its not in the official records.
Just wishing everybody a safe and happy new year!!!
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/nyctransit/homepage.html
This is just for those ppl who don't know how subway and bus service will be affected at Y2K.
-Subways will run about every 5 minutes until 3 AM. After 3 AM every 10 mins.
-Officials say to use the lettered lines, b/c the cars are bigger therefore less crowded. The exception would be the Times Square Shuttle.
-A transit official confirmed that the rumor that the TA would give away free rides is false. He also recommended to buy your metrocard early to avoid waiting in long lines.
-Trains are reportedly going to be running at 12AM and the TA is confident that no service disruptions will occur.
HAve A Happy and Healthy year 2000!!!!
TrAnSiTiNfO
Does anybody know when the R-110 actually operates in revenue service. I would like to know so that I could get some pics of it.
Clark
As stated in an earlier thread, A R110B leaves at noon and/or 11:13 AM. It has 6 cars remaining and runs on the C Line. As for the 110A I have no clue.
Almost forgot, I'm not sure if those times are for a weekday, saturday, or sunday schedule.
Could you please tell me about the diffrent brake valve positions for the ME-42 and the ME-23 brake valves. thanks in advance for your responce:)
If I'm remembering right, ME-23 is for AMUE equipment, and would be as follows (or is on an MP-54):
Release/recharge - releases brakes and charges up brake pipe to whatever pressure the feedvalve is set at.
Electric holding - charges brake pipe, but the electric portion keeps the hold solinoids on every car on, thus preventing brake release. on '54s, going between this and release is the only way to get a graduated release (i.e., the electric stuff has to work).
Lap - does nothing. yawn.
Handle out - just as boring, but lets you remove the handle.
Service - drops brake pipe pressure in a controlled fashion. Also activates service solinoid on every car. May or may not prevent more than a 25lb reduction (the PRR manual I read on this was fuzzy here)
Emergency - dumps the brakes. If electric brakes are active,m also activates the emergency solinoid. Any dump also causes the emergency switches to close, thus locking on the emergency solinoid until everything's empty.
Electric brakes are activated by either a plug or a switch, depending on the car (subways and PRR Mus used a plug, the LIRR used a multiposition switch). The deadman is active regardless.
Corrections and additions welcome - I'm half asleep while typing this!!! :)
Happy (and safe) New year everyone :)
I think Handle Off is on the Release Side of Lap, but anyway
the poster wanted to know about SMEE brake valves, not AMUE
ME42 and ME43 have the same positions: Full Release, Running
Release/Snow Brake....Service Range...Full Service,
Emergency, Handle-Off.
Running Release and Snow Brake are two separate positions. Service Range is no longer considered a position, since they put in the Snow Brake.
Service range is a variable position to me as not many can stop trains with release or full service. By the way, R36 cars still don't have snow brakes, right?
Service range is a variable position to me as not many can stop trains with release or full service.
That's why I said ...service range....full service
And, while I've never seen anyone stop in release, I've
seen LOTS of t/o's stop in full service.
Now, what did they do to make the snowbrake modification?
Is it just a new detent at the start of service range?
The detent for snow brake stops the cam at about ten pounds or so while not closing the 5 wire and energizing the lockout magnet valves, bleeding out the cylinders, no thanks to the TA's brilliant idea of removing inshot. Stopping the train in release? I could only imagine...
Hello and a happy new year to all!
Based on what the posts indicate, a majority of you are opinionated in saying that when delivered, the R142s will go to the 2 and the 5 lines, and the R143s will go to the L and M lines. I reiterate this is based on opinions from previous posts.
An interesting questions come up: What makes the above lines (2, 5, L, M) the ideal places to test the new equipment? Is it because of safety records, etc.?
Also it appears based on your posts that R62 equipment will be transferred to the 7 line. How will this be accomplished, and does this mark the end of the redbirds era?
- Jose
The L will be used for the R-143 because they will be the only ones able to support the new communications based train control system going in on the L. It's going in on the L because it's isolated.
The M is a logical place for spillover from the L, and needs cars with transverse cabs for OPTO on the off hour shuttle.
The 2/5 is accessible to the 180 Street Shop, rebuilt from the ground up to support the new cars.
Most likely, the lines with the oldest cars are going to be the ones to get the new cars first.
The 2/5 run some of the older Redbirds. I'd also assume because of maintenance facilities(the 2/5 have access to E 180th, I would assume to be the major IRT shop) they'd get preference over the 1/9, 3, 4 or 6.
As for the R-62's being transferred to the 7, any cars from the Lexington Line would transfer to the Concourse line at Jerome/Concourse yard and take that to the nearest conection with the N(backtrack at 50th?) and trains from the 7th go to the 207th Street yard, take the 8th Ave. IND down to maybe 59th Street or W 4th Street to the 6th Avenue, then at the nearest conection to the N(DeKalb/CI?), the cars would backtrack to Queensboro Plaza where they'd connect with the 7.
Or am I absolutely, positively, 100% WRONG?
This is my best guess. Consult the tracks maps. They may just use barges to do this.
I just saw a picture of the R142. It came from Kawasakei in Yonkers (My brother works at Trainit, Trainit as a volinter.) Here was there when the first cars came down to Yonkers from Upstates test track. The picture shows that the cars will have a red stripe over the first half of the car and the front will also have red on it. My brother told me that they say it was to rember the retirement of the Red Birds. I will try to get to someone that has a scanner so I can post the Picture.
P.S. sorry about the spelling.
Have a happy New Year to all.
Robert
Has anyone heard any news lately regarding the Queens Line Construction Project (Queensbridge line linking up with main line)?
Passing through the area by train lately, it appears that all of the switches have now been installed (making for an un-smooth ride on the queens-bound express from Queens Plaza to 36 street station area).
I'll throw you guys one more tidbit. The 63rd Street Connection (as it si officially called) will be completed ahead of schedule, with testing to begin late this year (2000) or early next. The opening of the connection is set to conincide with the flipping of the Manhattan Bridge--the H tracks come back, the A/B tracks go bye-bye. That is set to take place in 2001.
I am gone now--back into stealth mode with the rest of my colleagues!
HAPPY NEW YEAR SUBTALKERS!!!!
I wonder what all those people at Grand street will do when their B,D,Q don't go to Brooklyn. There should be a way to get 6th avenue trains to the south side of the bridge!
ONE MORE TIDBIT, if you please - how long will the north side Manhattan Bridge tracks be out for and what is the extent of the repairs needed?
Wayne
There was an earlier thread which mentioned the north side needs to be repainted. The tracks were redone during the late 80s, IIRC, so that can't be the reason for shutting them down. On second thought, given the overall condition of the Money Pit....